From cclist at sydex.com Fri Oct 1 00:23:07 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2010 22:23:07 -0700 Subject: Dealing with heat In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CA50DCB.28965.2DE8318@cclist.sydex.com> On 30 Sep 2010 at 19:23, William Donzelli wrote: > And the last place *anyone* wants to go is liquid cooling. Too bad no one ever told Seymour Cray that... --Chuck From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Oct 1 00:37:59 2010 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2010 22:37:59 -0700 Subject: Another 935 shot... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 9:44 PM -0700 9/30/10, Mark Davidson wrote: >Ok, can't resist. I'm just so happy to have this machine! I don't blame you, I'm not into HP systems, but that's a seriously cool sounding system. I'd love to try MPE. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Oct 1 00:40:09 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2010 01:40:09 -0400 Subject: Dealing with heat In-Reply-To: <4CA50DCB.28965.2DE8318@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4CA50DCB.28965.2DE8318@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: >> And the last place *anyone* wants to go is liquid cooling. > > Too bad no one ever told Seymour Cray that... And he would not have listened anyway. -- Will From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Oct 1 01:25:44 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 01 Oct 2010 02:25:44 -0400 Subject: Another 935 shot... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CA57EE8.6040404@neurotica.com> On 10/1/10 12:44 AM, Mark Davidson wrote: > Ok, can't resist. I'm just so happy to have this machine! > > Mark > > http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=5153811&l=e3d7fbce9f&id=734972117 > http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=5153808&l=e4aaef5843&id=734972117 Excellent score! And I see the kitty approves as well! -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ragooman at gmail.com Fri Oct 1 06:40:33 2010 From: ragooman at gmail.com (Dan Roganti) Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2010 07:40:33 -0400 Subject: OT: Worth exhibiting at Maker Faire? In-Reply-To: <4CA5587A.2020008@snarc.net> References: <4C4CF83B.1050302@snarc.net> <4CA5587A.2020008@snarc.net> Message-ID: On Thu, Sep 30, 2010 at 11:41 PM, Evan Koblentz wrote: > > Hi all -- >> >> My club (MARCH) is scheduled to exhibit at the inaugural Maker Faire NYC. >> I'm starting to have second thoughts because we don't "make" anything, we >> just make old things work again. Who here has been to a Maker Faire event, >> and if so, would a vintage computers exhibit be well received by the >> audience? >> > > Update .... the event was GREAT and unlike anything I've been to ..... very > glad that we went. Our booth was very well received. We showed a Pong > machine, Altair, C-64 with Shredz64 (Guitar Hero), and networked C-64 gaming > (Artillery Duel.) > Pics 'n Video Here's some pics 'n video that some websites have online already. It's not even half the stuff that was there. http://makerfaire.com/newyork/2010/media/pics.csp http://makerfaire.com/newyork/2010/media/video.csp Ep. 98: NYC Maker Faire highlights, Maker Faire 2010 in New York City - Metropolis - WSJ Photos & Video: World Maker Faire New York 2010 Make: Online : Tim O'Reilly rides the Jet Ponies Here's some pics I took http://www.flickr.com/photos/ragooman/sets/72157624947318751/ btw, this was the their show schedule Maker Faire NYC Schedule/ =Dan --http://www.vintagecomputer.net/ragooman/ From lproven at gmail.com Fri Oct 1 07:56:23 2010 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2010 13:56:23 +0100 Subject: Voice recognition will never kill the keyboard was: Re: Evolution of the Apple Mouse In-Reply-To: References: <4CA41FCD.6050004@neurotica.com> <4CA49503.9000108@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 1 October 2010 02:49, Alexey Toptygin wrote: > On Thu, 30 Sep 2010, Liam Proven wrote: > >> Mind you, come to that, as ordinary user PCs migrate to being >> multi-touch-operated slates, it could be that mice will disappear >> altogether. Keyboards too, when the speech recognition gets good >> enough. > > I know many, many people that can type faster than they can talk. Good for you. That does not mean *most* people can type faster than they can talk. Most people can't type at all. > And then > there's programming. *Shrug* And how many computer users are programmers? Seriously, what do you reckon? 0.1%? 0.01%? 0.001%? I suspect fewer than that. -- Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From ragooman at gmail.com Fri Oct 1 08:20:05 2010 From: ragooman at gmail.com (Dan Roganti) Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2010 09:20:05 -0400 Subject: Latest eBay seller BS In-Reply-To: References: <09d001cb60f3$538dc330$0600000a@portajara> Message-ID: On Fri, Oct 1, 2010 at 12:40 AM, Mark Davidson wrote: > > > Agreed. I've managed to find lots of bargains without sniping... > especially in books. I've found a bunch of great, usually expensive > books on compilers and AI for very little money. > > I've found plenty of [used] books online very inexpensively *without* without resorting to eBay. Manuals are another issue though. Not everything is canned yet :) =Dan --http://www.vintagecomputer.net/ragooman/ From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Oct 1 08:50:37 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2010 09:50:37 -0400 Subject: They don't make them like they used to In-Reply-To: <1285906246.2292.5.camel@fubar.kaput.homeunix.org> References: <1285906246.2292.5.camel@fubar.kaput.homeunix.org> Message-ID: Wow. That's loaded. I have a SYM-1 but I've never seen the KTM2 keyboard before. -ethan On 10/1/10, Alexis wrote: > On Thu, 2010-09-30 at 22:15 -0500, Brian Lanning wrote: >> :-) >> >> http://cgi.ebay.com/Synertek-1978-SYM-Model-1-vintage-computer-ktm-2-/110593136725?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item19bfdd5855 >> > > Oh man, I'm turning green with envy already for whoever may get that... > I've got a SYM-1, I rescued it from the soldering practice pile at TAFE. > A KTM-2 would be really nice to go with it. :) > > Alexis > > From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Fri Oct 1 10:10:58 2010 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Fri, 01 Oct 2010 11:10:58 -0400 Subject: Missed an auction... most annoying... Message-ID: In case anyone on the list won this ebay auction: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=360303684042&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT and doesn't know what that little thin rectangular board with the caps, resistors and coax on it is, it is an original Software Tech Music System board. The docs and software for it are on Jim Battle's Sol website. Not much to it electronically, but I really wanted an original. Rats! From shumaker at att.net Fri Oct 1 11:24:50 2010 From: shumaker at att.net (steve shumaker) Date: Fri, 01 Oct 2010 09:24:50 -0700 Subject: Latest eBay seller BS In-Reply-To: References: <09d001cb60f3$538dc330$0600000a@portajara> Message-ID: <4CA60B52.2070601@att.net> actually I've found that E-Pay can be used quite effectively for aquiring books... particularly the seller of the item that triggered this thread. They do the research and offer books that are notable or collectable.. Use that info to find the book on Amazon - usually at a much better price than the BIN or starting offer. steve On 10/1/2010 6:20 AM, Dan Roganti wrote: > On Fri, Oct 1, 2010 at 12:40 AM, Mark Davidsonwrote > >> >> Agreed. I've managed to find lots of bargains without sniping... >> especially in books. I've found a bunch of great, usually expensive >> books on compilers and AI for very little money. >> >> >> > I've found plenty of [used] books online very inexpensively *without* > without resorting to eBay. Manuals are another issue though. Not everything > is canned yet :) > > =Dan > --http://www.vintagecomputer.net/ragooman/ > > From IanK at vulcan.com Fri Oct 1 11:44:28 2010 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2010 09:44:28 -0700 Subject: Voice recognition will never kill the keyboard was: Re: Evolution of the Apple Mouse In-Reply-To: References: <4CA41FCD.6050004@neurotica.com> <4CA49503.9000108@gmail.com> , Message-ID: You're mixing two different arguments, but there is merit to both. Once upon a time, I worked on speech recognition and synthesis at Microsoft - we shipped the first Speech API that wasn't produced by Microsoft Research. (Instead of 137 interfaces, there were five.) It was a good product, offering quite accurate speaker-independent recognition, but it wasn't going to replace keyboards. For one thing: it's bad enough when you have a roomfull of people talking on telephones. Imagine if they were also talking to their computers! One of the problems speech recognition has yet to solve is the so-called 'cocktail party' scenario: a computer cannot pick out and focus on one voice among many. So if the woman in the next cubicle has a particularly loud, penetrating voice (not that that's ever happened to me), your results may vary.... I've also noticed that people who are talking to devices don't modulate their voices the same way people do when talking to other people. There's no sense of feedback, and volume rises. (It's interesting that the only place voice systems have really become successful is - on the phone!) Further, since the device isn't perfect but again provides no mitigating feedback upon error, people rapidly become frustrated with voice systems, once again leading to raised voices. IMHO a more important factor is that our application software is written for keyboard input, with varying support for mouse input. Spoken interaction is dramatically different from either command-line interaction or its translation to the GUI. This goes beyond UI, and requires a very different model of communication with our digital companions. Given the above objection, no one has put much time or money into tackling the problem. Speech recognition will not catch on either among vendors or customers if it's simply a replacement for the keyboard and the model of interaction it engenders. Regarding touchscreen devices, yes, I agree that mice are on their way out. Remember the cute little pop-out mouse on the HP Omnibook? As we move more to mobile devices (a category in which the iPad barely 'fits'!), physical pointing devices are awkward (including a stylus, which is easily lost). But once again we will need to make changes to our user interfaces: isn't it fun trying to select one line from a single-spaced list on a Web page? (I have an Android-based 7" tablet, which I'm coming to dearly love.) Also, there is a very significant difference between the mouse and the touchscreen: the former has a persistent cursor. The touchscreen has no 'default' for 'clicking' but instead enables all visible icons as potential action objects. This is more akin to the light-pen/gun devices that predate the mouse (the mouse was not the original pointing device). This subtle difference can make it challenging to port a mouse-based application to a touchscreen. While touchscreens will likely supplant the mouse, at least for the mobile computing world (which is becoming the dominant expression of information technology), speech recognition just isn't going to replace keyboards, simply because it's a fundamentally different means of communication. -- Ian ________________________________________ From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Alexey Toptygin [alexeyt at freeshell.org] Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2010 6:49 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Voice recognition will never kill the keyboard was: Re: Evolution of the Apple Mouse On Thu, 30 Sep 2010, Liam Proven wrote: > Mind you, come to that, as ordinary user PCs migrate to being > multi-touch-operated slates, it could be that mice will disappear > altogether. Keyboards too, when the speech recognition gets good > enough. I know many, many people that can type faster than they can talk. And then there's programming. When every character matters, and many of them are punctuation, speech recoginition (and speech for that matter) falls flat on its face. It will never be faster to pronounce: print join(',', map $_->(), @$closures), "\n" for 1..$num; than it is to type it. And that's relatively readable; perl lets you code with >50% punctuation... When I see photos of the 'keyboardless' ipad, more often than not there's a virtual keyboard taking up half of that very expensive screen... I giggle and keep on typing :-) Alexey From alexeyt at freeshell.org Fri Oct 1 11:47:51 2010 From: alexeyt at freeshell.org (Alexey Toptygin) Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2010 16:47:51 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Voice recognition will never kill the keyboard was: Re: Evolution of the Apple Mouse In-Reply-To: References: <4CA41FCD.6050004@neurotica.com> <4CA49503.9000108@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 1 Oct 2010, Liam Proven wrote: >> I know many, many people that can type faster than they can talk. > > Good for you. That does not mean *most* people can type faster than > they can talk. Most people can't type at all. What the heck are you talking about? In third world countries maybe? If you've used a computer in the last 30 years, you know how to type. Most of the population of G8 countries and the EU has used a computer... They have them in schools and libraries now, you know :-) >> And then >> there's programming. > > *Shrug* And how many computer users are programmers? Seriously, what > do you reckon? 0.1%? 0.01%? 0.001%? I suspect fewer than that. All the important ones are :-) Alexey From mdavidson1963 at gmail.com Fri Oct 1 12:07:45 2010 From: mdavidson1963 at gmail.com (Mark Davidson) Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2010 10:07:45 -0700 Subject: Latest eBay seller BS In-Reply-To: <4CA60B52.2070601@att.net> References: <09d001cb60f3$538dc330$0600000a@portajara> <4CA60B52.2070601@att.net> Message-ID: On Fri, Oct 1, 2010 at 9:24 AM, steve shumaker wrote: > actually I've found that E-Pay can be used quite effectively for aquiring > books... particularly the seller of the item that triggered this thread. > ?They do the research and offer books that are notable or collectable.. > Use that info to find the book on Amazon - usually at a much better price > than the BIN or starting offer. Oh, no doubt... I usually check both to see who has the better price. :) Mark From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Oct 1 12:24:37 2010 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2010 10:24:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Latest eBay seller BS In-Reply-To: References: <09d001cb60f3$538dc330$0600000a@portajara> <4CA60B52.2070601@att.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 1 Oct 2010, Mark Davidson wrote: > On Fri, Oct 1, 2010 at 9:24 AM, steve shumaker wrote: >> actually I've found that E-Pay can be used quite effectively for aquiring >> books... particularly the seller of the item that triggered this thread. >> ?They do the research and offer books that are notable or collectable.. >> Use that info to find the book on Amazon - usually at a much better price >> than the BIN or starting offer. > > Oh, no doubt... I usually check both to see who has the better price. :) Also http://www.abebooks.com Zane From cclist at sydex.com Fri Oct 1 12:26:47 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 01 Oct 2010 10:26:47 -0700 Subject: Voice recognition will never kill the keyboard was: Re: Evolution of the Apple Mouse In-Reply-To: References: , , Message-ID: <4CA5B767.20995.5347D3@cclist.sydex.com> On 1 Oct 2010 at 9:44, Ian King wrote: > While touchscreens will likely supplant the mouse, at least for the > mobile computing world (which is becoming the dominant expression of > information technology), speech recognition just isn't going to > replace keyboards, simply because it's a fundamentally different means > of communication. ...which is why there are chalkboards, overhead projectors, etc. in every classroom. Ian, were you involved at all with the L&H stuff? It was actually pretty decent for the time. Too bad it turned into a "pump and dump" scheme by a couple of shysters. --Chuck (who made some money from an investment in L&H before it imploded) From lproven at gmail.com Fri Oct 1 12:32:11 2010 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2010 18:32:11 +0100 Subject: Voice recognition will never kill the keyboard was: Re: Evolution of the Apple Mouse In-Reply-To: References: <4CA41FCD.6050004@neurotica.com> <4CA49503.9000108@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 1 October 2010 17:47, Alexey Toptygin wrote: > On Fri, 1 Oct 2010, Liam Proven wrote: > >>> I know many, many people that can type faster than they can talk. >> >> Good for you. That does not mean *most* people can type faster than >> they can talk. Most people can't type at all. > > What the heck are you talking about? In third world countries maybe? If > you've used a computer in the last 30 years, you know how to type. Most of > the population of G8 countries and the EU has used a computer... They have > them in schools and libraries now, you know :-) My company makes and sells computers for retirement-age people who have never used one before. You'd be surprised. The vast majority of the human race still has no idea how to type and slowly and painfully taps out stuff slowly with one finger. Two if they are skilled. >>> ?And then >>> there's programming. >> >> *Shrug* And how many computer users are programmers? Seriously, what >> do you reckon? 0.1%? 0.01%? 0.001%? I suspect fewer than that. > > All the important ones are :-) The point is, if a handful (relatively speaking) of programmers want keyboards, they can have them. Like floppy disks or serial ports, they may well prove to me minority devices that will disappear from the mass market completely. -- Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From IanK at vulcan.com Fri Oct 1 12:39:40 2010 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2010 10:39:40 -0700 Subject: Voice recognition will never kill the keyboard was: Re: Evolution of the Apple Mouse In-Reply-To: <4CA5B767.20995.5347D3@cclist.sydex.com> References: , , <4CA5B767.20995.5347D3@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chuck Guzis > Sent: Friday, October 01, 2010 10:27 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: RE: Voice recognition will never kill the keyboard was: Re: > Evolution of the Apple Mouse > > On 1 Oct 2010 at 9:44, Ian King wrote: > > > While touchscreens will likely supplant the mouse, at least for the > > mobile computing world (which is becoming the dominant expression of > > information technology), speech recognition just isn't going to > > replace keyboards, simply because it's a fundamentally different > means > > of communication. > > ...which is why there are chalkboards, overhead projectors, etc. in > every classroom. > > Ian, were you involved at all with the L&H stuff? It was actually > pretty decent for the time. Too bad it turned into a "pump and dump" > scheme by a couple of shysters. > > --Chuck > (who made some money from an investment in L&H before it imploded) Yes, we were licensing TTS stuff from L&H, and then one day.... Our recognition stuff was all in-house, though. -- Ian From dbetz at xlisper.com Fri Oct 1 12:43:33 2010 From: dbetz at xlisper.com (David Betz) Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2010 13:43:33 -0400 Subject: Free?: Toshiba Libretto 100CT and Apple Powerbook 160 In-Reply-To: <5F69EC56-96AA-4F83-B335-65D77428A2FD@xlisper.com> References: <3C7F5F6B-F013-4E0E-862E-36A395F1EF6E@voysys.com> <5F69EC56-96AA-4F83-B335-65D77428A2FD@xlisper.com> Message-ID: <6514D698-65B1-4B7F-9E95-DB23AF09EC45@xlisper.com> On Sep 20, 2010, at 10:18 PM, David Betz wrote: >> I've received two "yes" responses, so please consider it claimed. > > Well, I have the consolation prize I guess. I've been meaning to get rid of a Toshiba Libretto 70CT with external floppy drive, CD ROM drive and docking station. I also have a carrying case for it. It worked the last time I tried it but I'm not sure how good the battery is. Anyone interested? You pay the shipping unless you have something interesting to trade. Ever since reading the book "Racing the Beam" by Nick Montfort and Ian Bogost I've been interested in getting an Atari 2600... Thanks to all who showed an interest in my Libretto 70CT. I've found a new home for it. From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Oct 1 12:45:25 2010 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2010 10:45:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Voice recognition will never kill the keyboard was: Re: Evolution of the Apple Mouse In-Reply-To: References: <4CA41FCD.6050004@neurotica.com> <4CA49503.9000108@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 1 Oct 2010, Alexey Toptygin wrote: > What the heck are you talking about? In third world countries maybe? If > you've used a computer in the last 30 years, you know how to type. Most of > the population of G8 countries and the EU has used a computer... They have > them in schools and libraries now, you know :-) I know IT professionals that don't know how to type. I don't know about now, but when I went to school, it was an optional class. Thankfully I took it, but it wasn't until I was spending a lot of time doing word processing on a Minicomputer, that I really learned to type. Zane From IanK at vulcan.com Fri Oct 1 12:49:28 2010 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2010 10:49:28 -0700 Subject: Voice recognition will never kill the keyboard was: Re: Evolution of the Apple Mouse In-Reply-To: References: <4CA41FCD.6050004@neurotica.com> <4CA49503.9000108@gmail.com> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Liam Proven [snip] > > The point is, if a handful (relatively speaking) of programmers want > keyboards, they can have them. Like floppy disks or serial ports, they > may well prove to me minority devices that will disappear from the > mass market completely. > > I do have a fold-up USB keyboard for use with my Android tablet - but I don't recall the last time I used it. Of course, for long emails, I fire up the PowerBook. :-) My point being: I agree that programmers are a minority among consumers of information technology, as are "knowledge workers" and most other categories, compared to consumers who surf the web, play YouTube videos and natter on FaceBook. So the tools they need may well be specialized, and that may be the category into which the physical keyboard will soon find itself -- Ian From IanK at vulcan.com Fri Oct 1 12:51:43 2010 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2010 10:51:43 -0700 Subject: Voice recognition will never kill the keyboard was: Re: Evolution of the Apple Mouse In-Reply-To: References: <4CA41FCD.6050004@neurotica.com> <4CA49503.9000108@gmail.com> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Zane H. Healy > Sent: Friday, October 01, 2010 10:45 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Voice recognition will never kill the keyboard was: Re: > Evolution of the Apple Mouse > > > > On Fri, 1 Oct 2010, Alexey Toptygin wrote: > > > What the heck are you talking about? In third world countries maybe? > If > > you've used a computer in the last 30 years, you know how to type. > Most of > > the population of G8 countries and the EU has used a computer... They > have > > them in schools and libraries now, you know :-) > > I know IT professionals that don't know how to type. I don't know > about > now, but when I went to school, it was an optional class. Thankfully I > took > it, but it wasn't until I was spending a lot of time doing word > processing > on a Minicomputer, that I really learned to type. > > Zane > When I first started writing code for a living (6800 assembly language), I was the only programmer on the team who *could* touch-type. Everyone else was hunt-and-peck. -- Ian From mdavidson1963 at gmail.com Fri Oct 1 12:54:35 2010 From: mdavidson1963 at gmail.com (Mark Davidson) Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2010 10:54:35 -0700 Subject: Another 935 shot... In-Reply-To: <4CA57EE8.6040404@neurotica.com> References: <4CA57EE8.6040404@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Sep 30, 2010 at 11:25 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 10/1/10 12:44 AM, Mark Davidson wrote: >> >> Ok, can't resist. ?I'm just so happy to have this machine! >> >> Mark >> >> http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=5153811&l=e3d7fbce9f&id=734972117 >> http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=5153808&l=e4aaef5843&id=734972117 > > ?Excellent score! ?And I see the kitty approves as well! That's Theo, one of my 3 cats. He is always the first to check out new machines brought into the house. Of course, that's usually because there's a box associated with new machine and Theo LOVES boxes. :) Mark From mdavidson1963 at gmail.com Fri Oct 1 12:56:10 2010 From: mdavidson1963 at gmail.com (Mark Davidson) Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2010 10:56:10 -0700 Subject: Another 935 shot... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Sep 30, 2010 at 10:37 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: > At 9:44 PM -0700 9/30/10, Mark Davidson wrote: >> >> Ok, can't resist. ?I'm just so happy to have this machine! > > I don't blame you, I'm not into HP systems, but that's a seriously cool > sounding system. ?I'd love to try MPE. I have a special spot in my heart for HP3000 systems. MPE is a seriously cool OS, and I attended UTC, home of the HP3000 mailing list. My mother also worked at the university for 20+ years. I grew up spending summers on the campus, in the library and in their computer center, using their 3000 (and their 1000). Mark From cclist at sydex.com Fri Oct 1 13:10:17 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 01 Oct 2010 11:10:17 -0700 Subject: Voice recognition will never kill the keyboard was: Re: Evolution of the Apple Mouse In-Reply-To: References: , <4CA5B767.20995.5347D3@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4CA5C199.1567.7B1AB5@cclist.sydex.com> On 1 Oct 2010 at 10:39, Ian King wrote: > Yes, we were licensing TTS stuff from L&H, and then one day.... It's amazing how slowly the wheels of justice can turn. This, from Wikipedia: "On 20 September 2010, co-founders Jo Lernout and Pol Hauspie, as well as Nico Willaert, former vice chairman, and Gaston Bastiaens, former chief executive officer, were each sentenced to 5 years prison (of which 3 years effective and 2 years probationary) for fraud by the Ghent Court of Appeals. However, due to the endemnic problem of overcrowding in Belgian prisons and the policy of not executing sentences of 3 years or less, it is quite unlikely any of them will actually serve any time." --Chuck From IanK at vulcan.com Fri Oct 1 13:15:58 2010 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2010 11:15:58 -0700 Subject: Voice recognition will never kill the keyboard was: Re: Evolution of the Apple Mouse In-Reply-To: <4CA5C199.1567.7B1AB5@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4CA5B767.20995.5347D3@cclist.sydex.com>, <4CA5C199.1567.7B1AB5@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chuck Guzis > Sent: Friday, October 01, 2010 11:10 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: RE: Voice recognition will never kill the keyboard was: Re: > Evolution of the Apple Mouse > > On 1 Oct 2010 at 10:39, Ian King wrote: > > > Yes, we were licensing TTS stuff from L&H, and then one day.... > > It's amazing how slowly the wheels of justice can turn. This, from > Wikipedia: > > "On 20 September 2010, co-founders Jo Lernout and Pol Hauspie, as > well as Nico Willaert, former vice chairman, and Gaston Bastiaens, > former chief executive officer, were each sentenced to 5 years prison > (of which 3 years effective and 2 years probationary) for fraud by > the Ghent Court of Appeals. However, due to the endemnic problem of > overcrowding in Belgian prisons and the policy of not executing > sentences of 3 years or less, it is quite unlikely any of them will > actually serve any time." > > --Chuck > Thanks for the pointer. Wow, that's ancient history - I worked on speech around the time my daughter was born, and she's in middle school. :-) From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Fri Oct 1 13:35:49 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Fri, 01 Oct 2010 19:35:49 +0100 Subject: Adaptec AIC-010 / AIC-100 ECC scheme Message-ID: <4CA62A05.4060108@philpem.me.uk> Hi guys, I've managed to get my grubby paws on a Seagate ST22R RLL controller, and a matching ST-277R-1 hard drive (half-height 5.25in, 60MB ish). As part of my "pre-installation research", I Googled the part number of the one apparently-non-Seagate-custom part on the ST22R -- an Adaptec AIC-010 RLL controller. Turns out the datasheet for this part is on Bitsavers too. The datasheet provides a decent overview of the on-disc format (specifically: it's a tweaked variant of the IBM floppy disc low-level format, sitting on top of (2,7)RLL). What it doesn't really cover is the 32-bit error-correction code and its polynomial. There is a slightly oblique reference to Fire codes, there are two polynomials (forward and reverse), and data is loaded in shift-register style. Does anyone know what sort of error-correction codes were used on the AIC-010 and AIC-100 controller chips, or the polynomials used? Thanks, -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Fri Oct 1 13:58:57 2010 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 01 Oct 2010 13:58:57 -0500 Subject: Evolution of the Apple Mouse In-Reply-To: References: <4CA41FCD.6050004@neurotica.com> <4CA49503.9000108@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4CA62F71.6030206@gmail.com> Liam Proven wrote: > On 30 September 2010 14:47, Jules Richardson > wrote: >> Hmm, I think X windows had something similar at one time - middle button to >> drag the bar, left button to automatically go up and page and right button >> to go down a page (if I remember right, it did jump by a screenful, rather >> than smaller increments) > > Interesting. I have played with a fairly primitive X setup, no modern > window managers and so on, and yes, it did some of that, but I'd not > registered the direction-switching bit, which (for my money) is the > core usability feature. ISTR going "ooh, it's like RISC OS", playing > to see if the features I liked were there, and being disappointed - > but I might have missed it. I don't think it was quite as smooth as Acorn's implementation. I think there was also functionality in some setups where the amount that the window scrolled by on a left or right click was dependent on how close to the top or bottom (or left/right) the mouse pointer was on the window's scrollbars - but that was a pretty awful feature (because it was hard to judge exactly how much the window would scroll by for a particular mouse position) >> I've got some internal Acorn emails from that era related to their UI design >> - one day I'll have to see about 'releasing' them. It's interesting reading, >> seeing their thoughts about what features they should implement, and their >> analysis of what the competition was up to. > > Oh, that would be cool! Yeah, aside from the copyright issue, it's finding the time to sift through everything and make sure there's nothing *really* sensitive there - e.g. some of the data came from employee desktop machines, which means that there's personal data on there as well as corporate stuff. >> Hmm, those Dyson bladeless fans, maybe? (No idea how that technology works, >> or if it needs a minimum size to do so effectively). > > They cheat. It does have conventional fans, with blades, they're just > concealed within the base. No whizzy electrostatic impellers or > anything here. Nothing to see, move along. :?) Urgh :-( I did wonder, but the ads and corporate blurb all go one about them being bladeless when what they really mean is 'no visible blades' > But like it or not, the PC is moving toward being a consumer > appliance, like TVs or phones. There are no commercial TV or phone > repairmen around any more; the PC will go the same way. > > The question is, will they do it well or not? I'd put my money on not. Nobody gives a crap about quality any more :-( > And if the big players don't, is there room for a small company to > make money doing it right? Maybe, but it's difficult. A small company won't have the marketing budget, which means they have to rely far more on word of mouth - and it's difficult these days to survive long enough to establish a reputation. Once you're there, not so bad, but getting to that point is the problem. >> What I >> really dislike are mice that try to be too ergonomic (OK if you have an >> average hand size and are right-handed, bad for everyone else) or which have >> too many unnecessary buttons (3 is good, more is pointless) > > Entirely agree. But no buttons is also an infinite number of buttons, > in a way. Yes, but an infinite number of buttons with poor feedback :-) Humans like audible and tactile responses, just as they like visual ones. > Apple /were/ right, like it or not - there are abundant > figures to prove it. 1 button *is* the easiest for novices. I agree - but I think it's also a hindrance for more experienced users. Maybe we need 3-button mice, but an OS that can run in 'single button mode' for novices, where they don't have to worry about which mouse button they have to press :-) > Mind you, come to that, as ordinary user PCs migrate to being > multi-touch-operated slates, it could be that mice will disappear > altogether. Keyboards too, when the speech recognition gets good > enough. I think a lot of the reason that the entire world isn't using Model M's is the noise factor, though - I'm not sure I could handle an office full of people babbling away at their computers :-) Maybe 50 years from now we'll be able to control computers via thought - that would get rid of a lot of the bottlenecks (I can think far faster than I can type or speak) and would be silent... >>> I want the thing to have a damned cable, though, not a wireless >>> transciever and batteries. >> Yes, me too - I like the reliability of cables. There was a lot of hoo-hah >> about wireless charging a couple of years ago, but that seems to have gone >> quiet for the moment (it'd at least solve the battery swap problem) > > Oh, it's coming. Much argument over techniques and standards. They'll > squabble for a while then make it work. I seem to recall ads for some wireless phone charger here in the US a year or two ago, but then it all went quiet. Not sure why - maybe their tech just didn't work, or maybe people just didn't believe that it was real. It doesn't seem unreasonable to have a mouse mat that doubles as a charging pad, though. >>> As for keyboards, well, some of my Model Ms are now pushing 25, so I >>> am not worried about their longevity. :?) >> Yes, this one turns 25 next year :-) > > Aha! I think this particular one is a relative youngster, from 1993. Mine's so ancient that it doesn't even have the status LEDs on it. I do kind-of miss a caps-lock LED - one of my tests for an apparently-hung system was always to hit the caps-lock and see if the LED lit; invariably it wouldn't if the machine had gone completely loopy. cheers Jules From christian_liendo at yahoo.com Fri Oct 1 14:04:24 2010 From: christian_liendo at yahoo.com (Christian Liendo) Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2010 12:04:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: $6000 for an Altair 8800b with drives, terminals and DEC printer Message-ID: <417529.20872.qm@web113505.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> I just posted a link about this to my blog. http://8bitaficionado.com/?p=378 The direct sale is here http://cgi.ebay.com/ALTAIR-8800B-MITS-COMPUTER-W-DISK-DRIVE-COMPLETE-8800-/260669930382 I guess if I could burn $6000.00 I would get it. From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Fri Oct 1 14:11:34 2010 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 01 Oct 2010 14:11:34 -0500 Subject: Dealing with heat In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CA63266.5000802@gmail.com> William Donzelli wrote: >> I just sold 30# of aluminum heatsink approx 8" wide x 4" high x 5' long for >> $40.00. 9 other identical pieces were scrapped out for about $15.00 each. My >> understanding is that they were in the $100.00 + catagory when new. > > And that sounds like it was for stock extrusions. If you add all sorts > of machining so the heatsink actually touches the processor, you can > add a bunch more on to the price. > > Fans are cheap and effective. I was just thinking how many other sources of noise I have in my home - microwave, washing machine, dishwasher, clothes drier, fridge etc. and how people don't typically complain about the noise that they make. That's because we don't generally sit right next to them, so maybe that's the issue with current computers - not the noise they make, but the fact that it's intrusive because it's right next to us for extended periods. Maybe the solution isn't to make PCs quiet, but simply to get them out of the darn way :-) cheers Jules From cclist at sydex.com Fri Oct 1 15:08:25 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 01 Oct 2010 13:08:25 -0700 Subject: Ones' complement adder/subtractor In-Reply-To: <4CA63266.5000802@gmail.com> References: , <4CA63266.5000802@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4CA5DD49.6758.E74274@cclist.sydex.com> I've seen a little discussion of ones'complement (or "compliment if you're a recent graduate of the US university system) on the EDA fora, with no satisfactory resolution of the end-around carry stability issue. Given that almost every CPU that I've seen since 1980 has operated in two's complement, I submit that this qualifies as a "classic" discussion. I can't seem to derive a stable expression (Verilog) for adding two numbers, A and B,in ones' complement without computing A+B and A+B+1 as a two's complement adder and then selecting one or the other result depending on the carry-out. This seems to me to be a huge waste of logic. Has anyone in their FPGA simulations ever run into this one and come up with a clever solution? Just curious, Chuck From dkelvey at hotmail.com Fri Oct 1 16:15:53 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2010 14:15:53 -0700 Subject: Missed an auction... most annoying... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Bill Send a message to the seller. It is possible that the buyer isn't even interested in that particular board. The other boards are well worth the $40. Have the seller send a message to the buyer to let him know that you are interested in that single board. Dwight > From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Missed an auction... most annoying... > Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2010 11:10:58 -0400 > > In case anyone on the list won this ebay auction: > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=360303684042&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT > > and doesn't know what that little thin rectangular > board with the caps, resistors and coax on it is, > it is an original Software Tech Music System board. > The docs and software for it are on Jim Battle's > Sol website. Not much to it electronically, but I > really wanted an original. Rats! From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Oct 1 15:55:59 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2010 21:55:59 +0100 (BST) Subject: Latest eBay seller BS In-Reply-To: from "Ethan Dicks" at Sep 30, 10 03:30:39 pm Message-ID: > I've been outbid by lots of folks with deeper pockets than mine (there > are plenty of them out there). I've also been seen clear evidence of OK, I do the naive thing and put in the maxiumum I am prepared to pay for the item when I first bid. If somevbody else outbids me, I am not really upset fro long.. It jsut means they were prepared ot pay more than I was. No problem > bid-rigging on auctions I was bidding on. When I see it, I'm done. > More than one of those auctions has been "won" by the 12-hour-old > account with zero feedback. I presume the item then gets relisted. I > wouldn't know. I'm done with that seller. There is a scam (I believe) that's been tried on me a couple of times. It goes like this : 1) Seller (legitimately) lists item) 2) Several people bid on it (legitimately) 3) In the last few seconds a shill puts in an outlandish bid (say $1000 for a itme that noone would pay more than $50 for). Of course he wins it 4) The shill bid is withdreawn by 'mutual ageeement' giving reasons like 'The buyer didn't realise it wasn't '. 5) But the seller now knows the highest legitimate bid limit. He then offers the item to that buyer at that price. Point being, he's getting that bid limit, not the real high bid (one incement over the second highest bid limit) Logically, the buyer should be prepared to pay for the item (by having that bid limit he's saying that he thinks the item is worth that much). But I sstill feel it's a scam, -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Oct 1 15:43:21 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2010 21:43:21 +0100 (BST) Subject: Latest eBay seller BS In-Reply-To: from "Zane H. Healy" at Sep 30, 10 12:20:38 pm Message-ID: > > I'm puzzled when people don't realize you can buy something NEW for less > > than a bid price. > > This is something that really drives me crazy. This isn't simply a problem I could have been caught by this too (but wasn't...). As you know, I am looking at multimeters at the moment. I've seen some very nice Agilent bench instruments on E-bay with B-I-N that I could just about afford. And then I found I could get them new from a reputable UK supplier for less. I'm not saying, of course, that the E-bay seller is in any way disreputable, but if I am goign to spend that sort of money I would rather go to a company that I _know_ I can trust... > with eBay either, I frequently see this on Craigslist for the stuff I > monitor it for. > > I recently ran into just this issue at a Camera store that takes > consignments. They had a very nice used book on Paper Negatives I was > interested in. I almost bought it, but couldn't bring myself to pay what > they wanted. Then I learned you could not only get the book new still, but > that it was on Amazon for 2/5ths what the store wanted. Needless to say a > new copy of the book is sitting on my desk at this moment. Of coruse sometimes the older edition is rarer and thus more valuable to a collector. Personally, I have books fot hte information they contain... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Oct 1 15:46:45 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2010 21:46:45 +0100 (BST) Subject: Evolution of the Apple Mouse In-Reply-To: <4CA4E51A.1070908@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Sep 30, 10 03:29:30 pm Message-ID: > Come on, you don't have a box of mice kicking around? Even > nontechnical people I know have at least two or three in a closet somewhere. Err, no I don't. And nor do I have piles of keyboards, disk drives, etc. I do have plenty of boxes of ICs, resistors, microswitches, LEDs, and so on. That is the level I repair at. In any case, I have so many different types of mice with different interfaces on my machines here that I couldn't possibly keep spares for all of them.. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Oct 1 16:11:46 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2010 22:11:46 +0100 (BST) Subject: Evolution of the Apple Mouse In-Reply-To: from "Liam Proven" at Sep 30, 10 08:50:02 pm Message-ID: > You use a mouse? I'd have thought that was a bit modern for you, Tony! Oh, I have many machines with mice. I don;'t think I have anything that uses a normal PC style PS/2 or USB or RS232 mouse, though. Mybe I do, I think the Whitechapel Hitech takes an RS232 mouse, but I've not sorted that one out yet. Plenty of machines with quadrature mice : PERQ 3A, Whitechapel MG1, Acorn Archimedes, Atari ST, Amiga. etc. And if you include Trackballs, I've got several image display iuntis for the PDP11 that use them. And HP-HIL mince (HP Integral, HP150-II, etc). And the Kriz mouse on the PERQ 2s (but that's more of a graphics tablet, I supose) The PC I am typing this on doesn't ahve a mouse, though. WHat use would it be on an MDA (text only) display? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Oct 1 16:20:07 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2010 22:20:07 +0100 (BST) Subject: Evolution of the Apple Mouse In-Reply-To: from "Liam Proven" at Sep 30, 10 08:54:43 pm Message-ID: > > On 30 September 2010 20:21, Tony Duell wrote: > >> But more generally, I think I am seeing an interesting trend which I > >> find positive: the gradual removal of mechanical, moving parts from > >> PCs (and Macs). Spinning HDDs are gradually being replaced by SSDs. > > > > Hmm... I see this often as a negative trend in that I can fix the > > mechanical bits (other than HDDs) and can't fix custom silicon. It may > > be cheaper to replace, but when you have a deadline looming, the ability > > ot get the machine workign again is very useful... > > Overall, I'd agree. For mass-market consumer kit, I think it might be > good. Cheaper, faster computers are a good thing. Also, for the random Playinghte devil's advocate for a moment, Cheaper -> less likely to be econmical to repair, and thus more waste sent to landfill, fewer jobs for repairers. Not _ncessarily_ a good thing. > punter, *simpler* computers are a good thing. Again, if oyu're not careful, you end up with a machine that makes simple tasks trivial, but which can't be used for difficult tasks (or at least makes htem a lot harder than they should be). Somehting that really annoys me is the lack of a propper command language in many modern window-based OSes. Computeras are good at doing the same thing over and over agian, I should be able to tell them to do that. > > >> The last hold-out is the cooling fan and they are a real point of > >> weakness, as they clog up with dust and cause the system to fail. I > >> hope to see some improved, solid-state cooling mechanisms come along > > > > How are these supposed to work (without violating the 2nd law)? > > Well, one idea I am surprised I have not seen exploited in PCs, that I > have already seen in hifi, is large external passive heatsinks, > outside the case. I presume they're connected by heatpipes or > something. Gets the heat outside the box, in the open air, where the > user can easily clean the fins with a duster, and where it will be > carried away by open-air circulation. External heatsinks on hi-fi amplifiers have been around from the tiem of the first transitorised power amplifier :-). The thing is, though, audio amplifiers work at fairly low frequencies. So you can mount the output transistors, etc, directly on the heatsink, and link them to the rest of the components (e.g. by fitting them near the edge of the PCB amd mounting the PCB on an angle bracket fixed ot the heatsink. AMy amplifiers are built that way. But you can't do that with the much higher speed signals goign to a PC's processor or graphics chip or whatever. The pesky speed of light gets in the way. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Oct 1 16:29:09 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2010 22:29:09 +0100 (BST) Subject: Evolution of the Apple Mouse In-Reply-To: from "William Donzelli" at Sep 30, 10 06:13:54 pm Message-ID: > And "VMS" is incorrect as well. It is "OpenVMS". Nitpicker, start your engi= > nes. Err, not for the version that was run on my 11/730 before I got it... VAX/VMS maybe, but not Open-anything... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Oct 1 16:35:12 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2010 22:35:12 +0100 (BST) Subject: Latest eBay seller BS In-Reply-To: from "Zane H. Healy" at Sep 30, 10 03:33:21 pm Message-ID: > LOL! As long as the problem isn't shill bidding an the like I couldn't > agree more. Sniping is basically built into the system. If I can't be > online when it ends to snipe an auction I typically won't bid. Right now I > have a real problem, an auction with a part I need badly ends at 6:15am on > Saturday. There is no way I'm getting up that early, do I bid, or wait for I don;t get this. Why don't you simple do what E-bay origianlly intended you to do. Decide what that part is worth to you and bid that ammount. If you win it, you've got it for a price less than you think it's worth (so you've 'won'), if somevody outbids you (whether a 'snipe' or not), well, they were prepared to pay moe for it than you were. It happens. OK, I don;t use E-bay as much as most people here, I guess, but so far I've done the above. NEver sniped. Of course I am sometimes outbid. I would expect to me. But I do win things. Probably more than I am outbid on, acutally. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Oct 1 16:39:32 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2010 22:39:32 +0100 (BST) Subject: Another 935 shot... In-Reply-To: from "Mark Davidson" at Sep 30, 10 09:44:18 pm Message-ID: > > Ok, can't resist. I'm just so happy to have this machine! > > Mark > > http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=5153811&l=e3d7fbce9f&id=734972117 > http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=5153808&l=e4aaef5843&id=734972117 What is it with classic computer people and cats :-) -tony From teoz at neo.rr.com Fri Oct 1 17:00:52 2010 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2010 18:00:52 -0400 Subject: Another 935 shot... References: Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Friday, October 01, 2010 5:39 PM Subject: Re: Another 935 shot... >> >> Ok, can't resist. I'm just so happy to have this machine! >> >> Mark >> >> http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=5153811&l=e3d7fbce9f&id=734972117 >> http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=5153808&l=e4aaef5843&id=734972117 > > What is it with classic computer people and cats :-) > > -tony Could be that those types like to rescue things and cats are allowed to roam while dogs are not. That is the story my cats made up, and I am sticking to it. From mdavidson1963 at gmail.com Fri Oct 1 17:07:18 2010 From: mdavidson1963 at gmail.com (Mark Davidson) Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2010 15:07:18 -0700 Subject: Latest eBay seller BS In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Oct 1, 2010 at 1:55 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> I've been outbid by lots of folks with deeper pockets than mine (there >> are plenty of them out there). ?I've also been seen clear evidence of > > OK, I do the naive thing and put in the maxiumum I am prepared to pay for > the item when I first bid. If somevbody else outbids me, I am not really > upset fro long.. It jsut means they were prepared ot pay more than I was. > No problem That's the same thinking that I have. I put in my max bid and if someone outbids me, they outbid me. I've bid on something like "Logitech Modula/2 for OS/2", which I wanted. A lot. But I wasn't willing to pay more than, say, $75 for it. Someone won the item for almost $300. That's far more than I would ever have paid. Mark From mdavidson1963 at gmail.com Fri Oct 1 17:08:27 2010 From: mdavidson1963 at gmail.com (Mark Davidson) Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2010 15:08:27 -0700 Subject: Another 935 shot... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Oct 1, 2010 at 2:39 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> >> Ok, can't resist. ?I'm just so happy to have this machine! >> >> Mark >> >> http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=5153811&l=e3d7fbce9f&id=734972117 >> http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=5153808&l=e4aaef5843&id=734972117 > > What is it with classic computer people and cats :-) Ask my girlfriend. She's the one who puts up with my computer collecting and wanted the cats in the first place. :) Mark From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Oct 1 17:08:58 2010 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2010 15:08:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Another 935 shot... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 1 Oct 2010, Teo Zenios wrote: >> What is it with classic computer people and cats :-) >> >> -tony > > Could be that those types like to rescue things and cats are allowed to roam > while dogs are not. That is the story my cats made up, and I am sticking to > it. Cats like classic computers, and our Feline Overlords "encourage" us to get them the hardware they desire. Zane From mdavidson1963 at gmail.com Fri Oct 1 17:12:10 2010 From: mdavidson1963 at gmail.com (Mark Davidson) Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2010 15:12:10 -0700 Subject: Another 935 shot... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Oct 1, 2010 at 3:08 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: > > > On Fri, 1 Oct 2010, Teo Zenios wrote: > >>> What is it with classic computer people and cats :-) >>> >>> -tony >> >> Could be that those types like to rescue things and cats are allowed to >> roam while dogs are not. That is the story my cats made up, and I am >> sticking to it. > > Cats like classic computers, and our Feline Overlords "encourage" us to get > them the hardware they desire. Especially when that hardware gets warm and vibrates a little... One of my cats loves to sit on anything that vibrates when it's turned on (fans, computers, you name it). Mark From cclist at sydex.com Fri Oct 1 17:43:51 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 01 Oct 2010 15:43:51 -0700 Subject: Latest eBay seller BS In-Reply-To: References: from "Ethan Dicks" at Sep 30, 10 03:30:39 pm, Message-ID: <4CA601B7.8275.1759043@cclist.sydex.com> On 1 Oct 2010 at 21:55, Tony Duell wrote: > OK, I do the naive thing and put in the maxiumum I am prepared to pay > for the item when I first bid. If somevbody else outbids me, I am not > really upset fro long.. It jsut means they were prepared ot pay more > than I was. No problem Back in the early days of eBay (when Paypal would *pay* you $20 to join) I did my bidding using a dialup line and Mosaic, I became very frustrated to be aced out by bidders with faster connections. I purchased a software package that did sniping; it was better, but my connection speed and quality still limited me--and eBay frowned on sniping and changed its web pages several times in an attempt to thwart auto-sniping software. Eventually, I signed up with a new service called eSnipe and paid a fee (1% of the winning bid with a cap at $100 gavel and nothing for items under $25). I still use it and enjoy the original terms. Since most of what I bid on is under $25, I haven't paid eSnipe a cent in years. (New subscribers do not get the sweetheart deal). I tell eSnipe to bid what I'm willing to pay. Sometimes I get the item; other times, I don't. I don't get caught up in the final minutes frenzy. Exposing everyone's bid maximum during an auction would be like playing poker with all cards showing. No fun. All in all, eBay's kept a fairly honest game. Excite and Yahoo auctions were rife with abuse--fortunately, they're gone--and good riddance. --Chuck From legalize at xmission.com Fri Oct 1 12:51:35 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 01 Oct 2010 11:51:35 -0600 Subject: Voice recognition will never kill the keyboard was: Re: Evolution of the Apple Mouse In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 01 Oct 2010 09:44:28 -0700. Message-ID: In article , Ian King writes: > IMHO a more important factor is that our application software is > written for keyboard input, with varying support for mouse input. Really? Because I find that application software favors the mouse, i.e. keyboard shortcuts/navigation are often broken or missing. > Regarding touchscreen devices, yes, I agree that mice are on their way out. Really? Because moving from the screen to the keyboard with my hand is a *huge* distance compared to moving my hand to the left from the keyboard (yes, I'm right handed but left mouse due to RSI). For the existing apps that are mouse-centric, I see touchscreens replacing them, but for things that are text-centric I don't see that as a good transition. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Oct 1 18:39:19 2010 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Fri, 01 Oct 2010 17:39:19 -0600 Subject: Another 935 shot... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CA67127.6050805@jetnet.ab.ca> On 01/10/2010 4:08 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: > > > On Fri, 1 Oct 2010, Teo Zenios wrote: > >>> What is it with classic computer people and cats :-) >>> >>> -tony >> >> Could be that those types like to rescue things and cats are allowed >> to roam while dogs are not. That is the story my cats made up, and I >> am sticking to it. > > Cats like classic computers, and our Feline Overlords "encourage" us to get > them the hardware they desire. We all know they realy are in it for the mice ... > Zane > > > From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Fri Oct 1 18:48:59 2010 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 01 Oct 2010 18:48:59 -0500 Subject: Evolution of the Apple Mouse In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CA6736B.7080400@gmail.com> Liam Proven wrote: > On 30 September 2010 20:21, Tony Duell wrote: >>> But more generally, I think I am seeing an interesting trend which I >>> find positive: the gradual removal of mechanical, moving parts from >>> PCs (and Macs). Spinning HDDs are gradually being replaced by SSDs. >> Hmm... I see this often as a negative trend in that I can fix the >> mechanical bits (other than HDDs) and can't fix custom silicon. It may >> be cheaper to replace, but when you have a deadline looming, the ability >> ot get the machine workign again is very useful... > > Overall, I'd agree. For mass-market consumer kit, I think it might be > good. Cheaper, faster computers are a good thing. Also, for the random > punter, *simpler* computers are a good thing. cheaper and faster is good if that's what the consumer really needs (rather than what marketing and peers can convince them that they need). Otherwise, it's just wasteful. A quadrillion GHz CPU and a metric buttload of memory doesn't let me send more email or allow me to write documents any faster :-) I could play the latest must-have game, I suppose, if I had any interest in [modern] games. > Well, one idea I am surprised I have not seen exploited in PCs, that I > have already seen in hifi, is large external passive heatsinks, > outside the case. I presume they're connected by heatpipes or > something. Gets the heat outside the box, in the open air, where the > user can easily clean the fins with a duster, and where it will be > carried away by open-air circulation. For many* of the hifi's that I've seen, the heatsinks were usually just on the main power transistors, and these could be mounted on the rear wall of the case on the reverse side of the heatsink. As someone else mentioned, there's quite a lot of stuff in a modern PC which needs cooling, and reorganising it so that it could all sit on the back wall of the case could be tricky. * I did have a wonderful old Pioneer with the hot zone somewhere in the middle of the chassis; there was a grille on the underside and another one in the middle of the wooden case-top to allow the heat to escape. I bet a lot of them failed when people managed to block the vents :-) cheers Jules From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Fri Oct 1 18:53:46 2010 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 01 Oct 2010 18:53:46 -0500 Subject: Evolution of the Apple Mouse In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CA6748A.1080704@gmail.com> Tony Duell wrote: > And HP-HIL mince that raised a chuckle :-) > The PC I am typing this on doesn't ahve a mouse, though. WHat use would > it be on an MDA (text only) display? I'm pretty sure I had one on a PC before I had a graphics display - it was handy for cut and paste. From cclist at sydex.com Fri Oct 1 18:52:05 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 01 Oct 2010 16:52:05 -0700 Subject: Another 935 shot... In-Reply-To: <4CA67127.6050805@jetnet.ab.ca> References: , , <4CA67127.6050805@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4CA611B5.13699.1B40A86@cclist.sydex.com> On 1 Oct 2010 at 17:39, ben wrote: > We all know they realy are in it for the mice ... So, when you get a piece of equipment with a great big nest in it and PC boards buried in mouse feces, what's the best way to clean the board? I've tried warm water and mild detergent to no good effect. Easy Off aerosol oven cleaner (basically lye) follwed by a good rinse and dry seems to work much better. --Chuck From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Fri Oct 1 18:56:10 2010 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 01 Oct 2010 18:56:10 -0500 Subject: Evolution of the Apple Mouse In-Reply-To: <4CA6748A.1080704@gmail.com> References: <4CA6748A.1080704@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4CA6751A.7010305@gmail.com> Jules Richardson wrote: > I'm pretty sure I had one on a PC before I had a graphics display - it > was handy for cut and paste. I'm so used to saying that these days! Copy and paste, of course ;-) From teoz at neo.rr.com Fri Oct 1 19:08:31 2010 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2010 20:08:31 -0400 Subject: Another 935 shot... References: , , <4CA67127.6050805@jetnet.ab.ca> <4CA611B5.13699.1B40A86@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <61E2172DA7D24B0DB1048747DB3901CD@dell8300> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chuck Guzis" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Friday, October 01, 2010 7:52 PM Subject: Re: Another 935 shot... > On 1 Oct 2010 at 17:39, ben wrote: > >> We all know they realy are in it for the mice ... > > So, when you get a piece of equipment with a great big nest in it and > PC boards buried in mouse feces, what's the best way to clean the > board? > > I've tried warm water and mild detergent to no good effect. Easy Off > aerosol oven cleaner (basically lye) follwed by a good rinse and dry > seems to work much better. > > --Chuck > Something would have to be every rare and worth money for me to bother cleaning mouse poop out of anything. From jthecman at netscape.net Fri Oct 1 19:48:51 2010 From: jthecman at netscape.net (jthecman at netscape.net) Date: Fri, 01 Oct 2010 20:48:51 -0400 Subject: Need Help Finding Docs Message-ID: <8CD2FE2B79AB6B0-12C4-814E@Webmail-m113.sysops.aol.com> Hello Does anyone have any information on a VTEK Braille Display Processor computer? I have one but can not find anything of help using google, bing, or yahoo to search. The one I have is a model BDP-ACT II. Any help would be great. Thanks JK From legalize at xmission.com Fri Oct 1 17:16:27 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 01 Oct 2010 16:16:27 -0600 Subject: Latest eBay seller BS In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 01 Oct 2010 15:07:18 -0700. Message-ID: In article , Mark Davidson writes: > That's far more than I would ever have paid. ...and the outcome would have been the same whether or not the person who put down the $300 bid sniped or not. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Fri Oct 1 20:26:02 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 01 Oct 2010 19:26:02 -0600 Subject: Latest eBay seller BS In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 01 Oct 2010 15:43:51 -0700. <4CA601B7.8275.1759043@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: In article <4CA601B7.8275.1759043 at cclist.sydex.com>, "Chuck Guzis" writes: > Exposing everyone's bid maximum during an auction would be like > playing poker with all cards showing. No fun. Straw man argument. NOONE is suggesting that your maximum bid be exposed during the auction. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From wmaddox at pacbell.net Fri Oct 1 20:37:24 2010 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2010 18:37:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Ones' complement adder/subtractor In-Reply-To: <4CA5DD49.6758.E74274@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <803073.42025.qm@web82603.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- On Fri, 10/1/10, Chuck Guzis wrote: > I can't seem to derive a stable expression (Verilog) for > adding two > numbers, A and B,in ones' complement without computing A+B > and A+B+1 > as a two's complement adder and then selecting one or the > other > result depending on the carry-out.? This seems to me > to be a huge > waste of logic. I am not sure exactly what you mean by a "stable expression", but I presume that your difficulty is in coming up with a purely combinational formulation of the end-around carry, suitable for execution in a single cycle, that seems suitably economical in logic. I'm wondering if, historically, the situation was any better in hardwired logic. It was common in those days to do carry propagation in a second cycle (minor cycle, clock phase). This allowed such tricks as using a gated toggle input on the accumulator flip-flops as an XOR/accumulate, to implement the XOR part of a half-adder. This was even done for 2's complement. --Bill From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Oct 1 21:01:14 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 01 Oct 2010 19:01:14 -0700 Subject: Ones' complement adder/subtractor In-Reply-To: <4CA5DD49.6758.E74274@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4CA63266.5000802@gmail.com> <4CA5DD49.6758.E74274@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4CA6926A.9040503@brouhaha.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > I can't seem to derive a stable expression (Verilog) for adding two > numbers, A and B,in ones' complement without computing A+B and A+B+1 > as a two's complement adder and then selecting one or the other > result depending on the carry-out. This seems to me to be a huge > waste of logic. > > Has anyone in their FPGA simulations ever run into this one and come > up with a clever solution? Umm... the use of two adders and a mux *IS* the clever solution. Unless you're going to have a large array of one's complement adders for some reason, the resource utilization will be in the noise. It is also generally faster than most (if not all) other ways of implementing one's complement addition. Unfortunately Sun managed to patent this in 1999, despite it having been common practice for many years. US patent number 6,343,306. I haven't tried to find specific prior art, but I recall seeing it done that way in the early 1980s. The other clever way to do it, if you happen to have a two's complement adder that has a Generate output for carry lookahead (which you won't have in an FPGA, unless you implement it yourself), is to tie the Generate output to the carry input. Honeywell had a patent on that, now expired: US 4,298,952. Eric From cclist at sydex.com Fri Oct 1 21:16:32 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 01 Oct 2010 19:16:32 -0700 Subject: Ones' complement adder/subtractor In-Reply-To: <803073.42025.qm@web82603.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <4CA5DD49.6758.E74274@cclist.sydex.com>, <803073.42025.qm@web82603.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4CA63390.31553.2384A9A@cclist.sydex.com> On 1 Oct 2010 at 18:37, William Maddox wrote: > I am not sure exactly what you mean by a "stable expression", but I > presume that your difficulty is in coming up with a purely > combinational formulation of the end-around carry, suitable for > execution in a single cycle, that seems suitably economical in logic. Exactly--if you take a simple adder and send the carry-out to the carry-in, you wind up with a race condition. You could clock the circuit and run a second addition/increment based on the presence of carry-out, but then you've got a synchronous adder with a delay of either one or two clocks. If you're after an adder that operates either asynchronously or synchronously in a specific number of clocks, you have to settle for 2 clocks--one clock seems not to be possible. I've been doing some research since my post and patent 4,298,952 uses ancillary logic to generate a carry-lookahead signal independent of the adder. I'm not sure if this accomplishes much. The other patent I can find on the subject is essentially the scheme that I first described--compute two sums and then select the appropriate one--is 6,343,306, published in (surprisingly) 2002 and assigned to Sun. Another is 4,099,248, from 1978, that describes a substractive adder, such as used in the older CDC gear (minimizes the problem of negative zero), but implemented with 10K ECL logic blocks. This one's been scratching at my brain for some time and I wondered if anyone had any background on it. Thanks, Chuck From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Fri Oct 1 22:08:56 2010 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Fri, 01 Oct 2010 20:08:56 -0700 Subject: Dumping an Intel D8749? Message-ID: <4CA6A248.8050609@mail.msu.edu> Short story: Anyone have the ability to dump an Intel D8749 microcontroller's internal EEPROM for me? Long story: I picked up a neat-o keen display unit. (See http://yahozna.dyndns.org/scratch/avtron/IMG_0477.JPG for a picture) It uses two *huge* Panaplex displays (Babcock SP-431's) showing 4 7-segment digits (with 2" digit height) each. It's made by Avtron, an industrial automation hardware company -- I got in touch with their support department and they helped me identify the display (it's a "K885 Extrabrite display" designed to be used with their K885 "Speed / Draw" systems). Alas, they can't provide any interface specifications (which is about what I expected), so all I know is that it uses some sort of two-pin serial interface (with connectors labeled "High" and "Low") I was thinking that if I could get a dump of the microcontroller ROM, I might be able to either (a) decipher the protocol enough to allow another microcontroller/PC to control the display, or (b) decipher the hardware enough to figure out how to write a replacement EEPROM for the onboard microcontroller... I think this thing would make a *really* cool clock... - Josh From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Fri Oct 1 22:21:39 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2010 00:21:39 -0300 Subject: Dumping an Intel D8749? References: <4CA6A248.8050609@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <11b501cb61e3$4f7a0ba0$0600000a@portajara> > Short story: Anyone have the ability to dump an Intel D8749 > microcontroller's internal EEPROM for me? I have, but I'm a bit too far away from you :) You can try a willem programmer with MCS-51 adapter, or a Wellon VP-280 USB programmer... From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Oct 1 23:28:24 2010 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Fri, 01 Oct 2010 22:28:24 -0600 Subject: Ones' complement adder/subtractor In-Reply-To: <4CA63390.31553.2384A9A@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4CA5DD49.6758.E74274@cclist.sydex.com>, <803073.42025.qm@web82603.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4CA63390.31553.2384A9A@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4CA6B4E8.2080000@jetnet.ab.ca> On 01/10/2010 8:16 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 1 Oct 2010 at 18:37, William Maddox wrote: > >> I am not sure exactly what you mean by a "stable expression", but I >> presume that your difficulty is in coming up with a purely >> combinational formulation of the end-around carry, suitable for >> execution in a single cycle, that seems suitably economical in logic. > > Exactly--if you take a simple adder and send the carry-out to the > carry-in, you wind up with a race condition. You could clock the > circuit and run a second addition/increment based on the presence of > carry-out, but then you've got a synchronous adder with a delay of > either one or two clocks. If you're after an adder that operates > either asynchronously or synchronously in a specific number of > clocks, you have to settle for 2 clocks--one clock seems not to be > possible. > what race condition? Here I am thinking of simple ripple adder. if you have no carry out, no problem. if you have a carry, the carry must stabilize before you have the start of the carry out propagate. so a 1x delay is needed as the back of the envelope calculations. Off hand I can't think of what gives over flow, the more important thing. > Thanks, > Chuck > From cclist at sydex.com Fri Oct 1 23:50:12 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 01 Oct 2010 21:50:12 -0700 Subject: Ones' complement adder/subtractor In-Reply-To: <4CA6B4E8.2080000@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4CA5DD49.6758.E74274@cclist.sydex.com>, <4CA63390.31553.2384A9A@cclist.sydex.com>, <4CA6B4E8.2080000@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4CA65794.7771.2C4FA69@cclist.sydex.com> On 1 Oct 2010 at 22:28, ben wrote: > what race condition? Here I am thinking of simple ripple adder. See the following paper: http://crc.stanford.edu/crc_papers/Shedletsky_cos.pdf --Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Oct 2 00:04:44 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2010 22:04:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Ones' complement adder/subtractor In-Reply-To: <4CA5DD49.6758.E74274@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4CA63266.5000802@gmail.com> <4CA5DD49.6758.E74274@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20101001220336.B84833@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 1 Oct 2010, Chuck Guzis wrote: > I've seen a little discussion of ones'complement (or "compliment if > you're a recent graduate of the US university system) on the EDA "We've come to negate that number, not to praise it." From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Oct 2 00:21:38 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2010 22:21:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Latest eBay seller BS In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20101001221206.C84833@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 1 Oct 2010, Tony Duell wrote: > 3) In the last few seconds a shill puts in an outlandish bid (say $1000 > for a itme that noone would pay more than $50 for). Of course he wins it > 4) The shill bid is withdreawn by 'mutual ageeement' giving reasons like > 'The buyer didn't realise it wasn't '. > 5) But the seller now knows the highest legitimate bid limit. He then > offers the item to that buyer at that price. Point being, he's getting > that bid limit, not the real high bid (one incement over the second > highest bid limit) another variant: 3) well before the end, the shill puts in a completely ridiculous bid. 4) the active bid is moved to one increment over your bid. 5) the shill retracts the "mistaken" bid - "my keyboard stuck" 6) the shill, or shill#2, now places a bid just below yours, so that when you win the auction, it is at your maximum bid. From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sat Oct 2 01:07:29 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2010 02:07:29 -0400 Subject: Latest eBay seller BS In-Reply-To: <20101001221206.C84833@shell.lmi.net> References: <20101001221206.C84833@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: > 3) well before the end, the shill puts in a completely ridiculous bid. > 4) the active bid is moved to one increment over your bid. > 5) the shill retracts the "mistaken" bid - "my keyboard stuck" > 6) the shill, or shill#2, now places a bid just below yours, so that when > you win the auction, it is at your maximum bid. This is a variant on "bid shielding", and is a well known pattern. It sticks out like a sore thumb. -- Will From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Oct 2 02:10:55 2010 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Sat, 02 Oct 2010 01:10:55 -0600 Subject: Ones' complement adder/subtractor In-Reply-To: <4CA65794.7771.2C4FA69@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4CA5DD49.6758.E74274@cclist.sydex.com>, <4CA63390.31553.2384A9A@cclist.sydex.com>, <4CA6B4E8.2080000@jetnet.ab.ca> <4CA65794.7771.2C4FA69@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4CA6DAFF.4090306@jetnet.ab.ca> On 01/10/2010 10:50 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 1 Oct 2010 at 22:28, ben wrote: > >> what race condition? Here I am thinking of simple ripple adder. > > See the following paper: > > http://crc.stanford.edu/crc_papers/Shedletsky_cos.pdf Why? I was thinking of it on-line when I read the message. I'll stick to real gates, rather than the fictional gates you play with today. > --Chuck > Ben. Who is up working on hardware I always wanted to build, now writing the microcode at the wee hours of the morning. From snhirsch at gmail.com Fri Oct 1 06:22:24 2010 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2010 07:22:24 -0400 (EDT) Subject: They don't make them like they used to In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 30 Sep 2010, Brian Lanning wrote: > :-) > > http://cgi.ebay.com/Synertek-1978-SYM-Model-1-vintage-computer-ktm-2-/110593136725?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item19bfdd5855 > Slick. however i dotn by thngs frim vendors that run sentances together and cannt spel very wel OR USE ALL CAPZ AND DONOT SPEL THAT WAY ITHER it suggest thta thare may be othar issues that will crop up i don't know... -- From jlobocki at gmail.com Fri Oct 1 21:44:43 2010 From: jlobocki at gmail.com (joe lobocki) Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2010 21:44:43 -0500 Subject: Latest eBay seller BS In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: well, lets see. i have been using ebay since before i was 18, even though it was against TOS, and had to pay in cash, back when you could, so since about 2000. i have seen the system evolve greatly. i normally use buy it now to purchase things, about 99.99% of my purchases are buy it now. i will admit, i have bid sniped quite a few times, but i keep it to a minimum. i only snipe within the max im willing to spend, as i have been burned and had to pay outrageous ammounts before. ebay buyer protection is a double edged sword. example, i once bought a vintage mac, to find the seller removed the stains on it by washing it in acetone. i tried to file a complaint, they wanted me to send it back, shipping not refundable. it wouldve cost me more to send back than it cost me for the item. basically, sellers can send you trash, but you could send it back and get back less than the original cost. but i think they may have fixed that. ebay has also turned into a place of unrealistic values for old equipment, where people demand 10x reasonable value for an item and justify it by labeling it "vintage" or "retro" when it is something under 20 years old and was made in mass production. i do feel removing sellers rights to negative feedback was a good idea, as in the day ii ran across a few sellers who were running scams, and listed in their profile "i leave negative feedback for negative feedback" or the real world equivalent of "if you tell what im doing, ill tell the world you are dealing coke out of your family's home" but at the same time it makes it hard for sellers to deal with abusive or scam buyers, like the time ii sold a PBX card in working order, had a dealer buy it for less than his retail, and sent me a bad card back which was physically different than the one i sold him, ebay attempted to take the money back, could only take so much before my bank told them no, so he left me negative feedback, but i was able to leave it for him as well. From ragooman at gmail.com Sat Oct 2 07:02:54 2010 From: ragooman at gmail.com (Dan Roganti) Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2010 08:02:54 -0400 Subject: Ones' complement adder/subtractor In-Reply-To: <4CA5DD49.6758.E74274@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4CA63266.5000802@gmail.com> <4CA5DD49.6758.E74274@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Oct 1, 2010 at 4:08 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > > I can't seem to derive a stable expression (Verilog) for adding two > numbers, A and B,in ones' complement without computing A+B and A+B+1 > as a two's complement adder and then selecting one or the other > result depending on the carry-out. This seems to me to be a huge > waste of logic. > > > that's been the problem with FPGA synthesis all along, they've never been more than average at best as they always say, when in doubt, instantiate ! ;) =Dan --http://www.vintagecomputer.net/ragooman/ From ajp166 at verizon.net Sat Oct 2 07:33:14 2010 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Sat, 02 Oct 2010 08:33:14 -0400 Subject: Dumping an Intel D8749? In-Reply-To: <4CA6A248.8050609@mail.msu.edu> References: <4CA6A248.8050609@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <4CA7268A.1010802@verizon.net> On 10/01/2010 11:08 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > Short story: Anyone have the ability to dump an Intel D8749 > microcontroller's internal EEPROM for me? > > Long story: I picked up a neat-o keen display unit. (See > http://yahozna.dyndns.org/scratch/avtron/IMG_0477.JPG for a picture) > It uses two *huge* Panaplex displays (Babcock SP-431's) showing 4 > 7-segment digits (with 2" digit height) each. > > It's made by Avtron, an industrial automation hardware company -- I > got in touch with their support department and they helped me identify > the display (it's a "K885 Extrabrite display" designed to be used with > their K885 "Speed / Draw" systems). Alas, they can't provide any > interface specifications (which is about what I expected), so all I > know is that it uses some sort of two-pin serial interface (with > connectors labeled "High" and "Low") > > I was thinking that if I could get a dump of the microcontroller ROM, > I might be able to either (a) decipher the protocol enough to allow > another microcontroller/PC to control the display, or (b) decipher the > hardware enough to figure out how to write a replacement EEPROM for > the onboard microcontroller... I think this thing would make a > *really* cool clock... > > - Josh > > > I'm too far away. However if you find a copy of the 8048/49 Intel books the procedure for dumping the Eprom is trivial though its 2048 bytes in size by 8bits. Once you have the content I rember somewhere on the net seeing a decent disassembler. Allison From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Sat Oct 2 07:51:38 2010 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2010 13:51:38 +0100 Subject: Voice recognition will never kill the keyboard was: Re:Evolution of the Apple Mouse References: <4CA41FCD.6050004@neurotica.com><4CA49503.9000108@gmail.com>, Message-ID: <012a01cb6235$93e5c9d0$82165d0a@user8459cef6fa> One thing I believe you missed mentioning is accents. Some of the voice recognition games on the Nintendo DS have this problem, where it can understand most UK accents but some can trip it up. (Personally, I know I can't understand a word anyone says in a broad Yorkshire accent... I found this out when I met my ex's grandfather years ago. Very embarrassing indeed). Then you have people that speak at different speeds. Some people talk slowly (Captain Kirk usually... only spoke three... words at a... time!), whilst some speak very fast and everyone else sits somewhere in the middle. Personally, I don't see voice recognition going anywhere major. Just like 3D TV, it's cool, but it's still just a passing phase. Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ian King" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Friday, October 01, 2010 5:44 PM Subject: RE: Voice recognition will never kill the keyboard was: Re:Evolution of the Apple Mouse You're mixing two different arguments, but there is merit to both. Once upon a time, I worked on speech recognition and synthesis at Microsoft - we shipped the first Speech API that wasn't produced by Microsoft Research. (Instead of 137 interfaces, there were five.) It was a good product, offering quite accurate speaker-independent recognition, but it wasn't going to replace keyboards. For one thing: it's bad enough when you have a roomfull of people talking on telephones. Imagine if they were also talking to their computers! One of the problems speech recognition has yet to solve is the so-called 'cocktail party' scenario: a computer cannot pick out and focus on one voice among many. So if the woman in the next cubicle has a particularly loud, penetrating voice (not that that's ever happened to me), your results may vary.... I've also noticed that people who are talking to devices don't modulate their voices the same way people do when talking to other people. There's no sense of feedback, and volume rises. (It's interesting that the only place voice systems have really become successful is - on the phone!) Further, since the device isn't perfect but again provides no mitigating feedback upon error, people rapidly become frustrated with voice systems, once again leading to raised voices. IMHO a more important factor is that our application software is written for keyboard input, with varying support for mouse input. Spoken interaction is dramatically different from either command-line interaction or its translation to the GUI. This goes beyond UI, and requires a very different model of communication with our digital companions. Given the above objection, no one has put much time or money into tackling the problem. Speech recognition will not catch on either among vendors or customers if it's simply a replacement for the keyboard and the model of interaction it engenders. Regarding touchscreen devices, yes, I agree that mice are on their way out. Remember the cute little pop-out mouse on the HP Omnibook? As we move more to mobile devices (a category in which the iPad barely 'fits'!), physical pointing devices are awkward (including a stylus, which is easily lost). But once again we will need to make changes to our user interfaces: isn't it fun trying to select one line from a single-spaced list on a Web page? (I have an Android-based 7" tablet, which I'm coming to dearly love.) Also, there is a very significant difference between the mouse and the touchscreen: the former has a persistent cursor. The touchscreen has no 'default' for 'clicking' but instead enables all visible icons as potential action objects. This is more akin to the light-pen/gun devices that predate the mouse (the mouse was not the original pointing device). This subtle difference can make it challenging to port a mouse-based application to a touchscreen. While touchscreens will likely supplant the mouse, at least for the mobile computing world (which is becoming the dominant expression of information technology), speech recognition just isn't going to replace keyboards, simply because it's a fundamentally different means of communication. -- Ian ________________________________________ From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Alexey Toptygin [alexeyt at freeshell.org] Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2010 6:49 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Voice recognition will never kill the keyboard was: Re: Evolution of the Apple Mouse On Thu, 30 Sep 2010, Liam Proven wrote: > Mind you, come to that, as ordinary user PCs migrate to being > multi-touch-operated slates, it could be that mice will disappear > altogether. Keyboards too, when the speech recognition gets good > enough. I know many, many people that can type faster than they can talk. And then there's programming. When every character matters, and many of them are punctuation, speech recoginition (and speech for that matter) falls flat on its face. It will never be faster to pronounce: print join(',', map $_->(), @$closures), "\n" for 1..$num; than it is to type it. And that's relatively readable; perl lets you code with >50% punctuation... When I see photos of the 'keyboardless' ipad, more often than not there's a virtual keyboard taking up half of that very expensive screen... I giggle and keep on typing :-) Alexey From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sat Oct 2 08:56:15 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2010 06:56:15 -0700 Subject: Dumping an Intel D8749? In-Reply-To: <4CA6A248.8050609@mail.msu.edu> References: <4CA6A248.8050609@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: > From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu ---snip--- so all I know is that > it uses some sort of two-pin serial interface (with connectors labeled > "High" and "Low") > Hi This leads me to think it is 422 or 485 levels. If so, it is most likely async serial. Dwight From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sat Oct 2 09:15:17 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2010 07:15:17 -0700 Subject: Dumping an Intel D8749? In-Reply-To: <11b501cb61e3$4f7a0ba0$0600000a@portajara> References: <4CA6A248.8050609@mail.msu.edu>, <11b501cb61e3$4f7a0ba0$0600000a@portajara> Message-ID: Hi I'm not sure but I don't think the 48 family was socket comatible with the 51 for programming. Dwight > From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Dumping an Intel D8749? > Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2010 00:21:39 -0300 > > > Short story: Anyone have the ability to dump an Intel D8749 > > microcontroller's internal EEPROM for me? > > I have, but I'm a bit too far away from you :) > > You can try a willem programmer with MCS-51 adapter, or a Wellon VP-280 > USB programmer... > > From charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net Sat Oct 2 09:16:56 2010 From: charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net (Charles) Date: Sat, 02 Oct 2010 09:16:56 -0500 Subject: Amish Software? Message-ID: <9hfea6dic3em1jtd74o00vo042p6qi7sbs@4ax.com> Found in the junkbox: An unused 5.25" floppy from Amish Software "Bonus Disk: Amish Bundling includes Amish Launch and Amish Desk Utilities for Windows" (1991). Another with Creative Labs' "Game Blaster Demo & Intelligent Organ" (1989). Price - Almost free (for postage) ;) thanks Charles From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sat Oct 2 09:36:13 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2010 07:36:13 -0700 Subject: They don't make them like they used to In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: > From: snhirsch at gmail.com > > On Thu, 30 Sep 2010, Brian Lanning wrote: > > > :-) > > > > http://cgi.ebay.com/Synertek-1978-SYM-Model-1-vintage-computer-ktm-2-/110593136725?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item19bfdd5855 > > > > Slick. however i dotn by thngs frim vendors that run sentances together > and cannt spel very wel OR USE ALL CAPZ AND DONOT SPEL THAT WAY ITHER it > suggest thta thare may be othar issues that > will crop up i don't know... > Hi It is a really cool combination. It looks like the KTM-2 is the 40 column board. I wonder if it is the older or newer version. The newer one could be expanded to 80 columns with a few parts. I wonder what the wires are that are on the RAMs. I suspect they may be larger RAMs than what came with the board. Dwight From eric at brouhaha.com Sat Oct 2 11:50:31 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sat, 02 Oct 2010 09:50:31 -0700 Subject: Ones' complement adder/subtractor In-Reply-To: <4CA63390.31553.2384A9A@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4CA5DD49.6758.E74274@cclist.sydex.com>, <803073.42025.qm@web82603.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4CA63390.31553.2384A9A@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4CA762D7.3000204@brouhaha.com> On 10/01/2010 07:16 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > patent 4,298,952 uses > ancillary logic to generate a carry-lookahead signal independent of > the adder. I'm not sure if this accomplishes much. It does exactly what you've asked for. The point of it is that if you're using off-the shelf parts, or off-the-shelf standard cells in an ASIC, you already can get adders with the carry lookahead logic. In an FPGA you don't, so the dual-adder design you described (and Sun patented) will generally have lower resource utilization and be faster. Eric From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Oct 2 12:28:22 2010 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Sat, 02 Oct 2010 11:28:22 -0600 Subject: Ones' complement adder/subtractor In-Reply-To: <4CA762D7.3000204@brouhaha.com> References: <4CA5DD49.6758.E74274@cclist.sydex.com>, <803073.42025.qm@web82603.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4CA63390.31553.2384A9A@cclist.sydex.com> <4CA762D7.3000204@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4CA76BB6.9070404@jetnet.ab.ca> On 02/10/2010 10:50 AM, Eric Smith wrote: > On 10/01/2010 07:16 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > patent 4,298,952 uses > > ancillary logic to generate a carry-lookahead signal independent of > > the adder. I'm not sure if this accomplishes much. > > It does exactly what you've asked for. The point of it is that if you're > using off-the shelf parts, or off-the-shelf standard cells in an ASIC, > you already can get adders with the carry lookahead logic. In an FPGA > you don't, so the dual-adder design you described (and Sun patented) > will generally have lower resource utilization and be faster. Then again watch the hardware, a FPGA with fast hardware ripple carry may do something sneaky to the logic. > Eric > Ben,who is back to designing on paper since I can't find a ISB jtag cable here in Canada. From cclist at sydex.com Sat Oct 2 13:04:08 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 02 Oct 2010 11:04:08 -0700 Subject: Ones' complement adder/subtractor In-Reply-To: <4CA762D7.3000204@brouhaha.com> References: <4CA5DD49.6758.E74274@cclist.sydex.com>, <4CA63390.31553.2384A9A@cclist.sydex.com>, <4CA762D7.3000204@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4CA711A8.31587.5361C3@cclist.sydex.com> On 2 Oct 2010 at 9:50, Eric Smith wrote: > It does exactly what you've asked for. The point of it is that if > you're using off-the shelf parts, or off-the-shelf standard cells in > an ASIC, you already can get adders with the carry lookahead logic. > In an FPGA you don't, so the dual-adder design you described (and Sun > patented) will generally have lower resource utilization and be > faster. Why the Sun patent doesn't qualify as "prior art" is beyond me. But the patent system is "grant first, litigate later", so it figures. I'll probably end up doing a 2-stage/2-clock adder-followed-by- incrementer. At least it's straightforward. Thanks, Chuck From eric at brouhaha.com Sat Oct 2 13:52:08 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sat, 02 Oct 2010 11:52:08 -0700 Subject: Ones' complement adder/subtractor In-Reply-To: <4CA711A8.31587.5361C3@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4CA5DD49.6758.E74274@cclist.sydex.com>, <4CA63390.31553.2384A9A@cclist.sydex.com>, <4CA762D7.3000204@brouhaha.com> <4CA711A8.31587.5361C3@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4CA77F58.7080403@brouhaha.com> Chuck wrote: > Why the Sun patent doesn't qualify as "prior art" is beyond me. I'm confused. Which patent are you saying should qualify as prior art? The Sun patent is fairly recent, so it can't qualify as prior art with respect to the older patents we've mentioned. Eric From cclist at sydex.com Sat Oct 2 14:23:19 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 02 Oct 2010 12:23:19 -0700 Subject: Ones' complement adder/subtractor In-Reply-To: <4CA77F58.7080403@brouhaha.com> References: <4CA5DD49.6758.E74274@cclist.sydex.com>, <4CA711A8.31587.5361C3@cclist.sydex.com>, <4CA77F58.7080403@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4CA72437.7372.9BDFEE@cclist.sydex.com> On 2 Oct 2010 at 11:52, Eric Smith wrote: > I'm confused. Which patent are you saying should qualify as prior art? > The Sun patent is fairly recent, so it can't qualify as prior art with > respect to the older patents we've mentioned. It's hard to believe that the approach used in the Sun patent hadn't been used commercially before. That's what I meant by "prior art". --Chuck From charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net Sat Oct 2 14:23:33 2010 From: charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net (Charles) Date: Sat, 02 Oct 2010 14:23:33 -0500 Subject: FS: Assembler Language Programming, Systems/360 and 370 Message-ID: <2j1fa6h2jegfv0oqbksu530hkchpuh9pln@4ax.com> More old stuff I don't need but you might :) Large paperback textbook, "Assembler Language Programming Systems/360 and 370" by Sharon K. Tuggle, 1975, 511 pages. $5 plus actual Media Mail shipping. thanks Charles From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Oct 2 13:59:13 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2010 19:59:13 +0100 (BST) Subject: Voice recognition will never kill the keyboard was: Re: Evolution In-Reply-To: from "Richard" at Oct 1, 10 11:51:35 am Message-ID: > For the existing apps that are mouse-centric, I see touchscreens > replacing them, but for things that are text-centric I don't see that > as a good transition. TOuchscreens have been tried in the past (the most obviosu example is the HP150 'Touchscreen PC') and I think they were always found to be less convenient to use than a mouse or trackball. You have to move your hand further (keyboard to screen rather than keyboard to mouse on desk near keybaord), and you arm/hand is not supported (e.g. by resting it on the desk) when you are doing the pointing. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Oct 2 14:31:24 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2010 20:31:24 +0100 (BST) Subject: Latest eBay seller BS In-Reply-To: from "Mark Davidson" at Oct 1, 10 03:07:18 pm Message-ID: > That's the same thinking that I have. I put in my max bid and if > someone outbids me, they outbid me. I've bid on something like > "Logitech Modula/2 for OS/2", which I wanted. A lot. But I wasn't > willing to pay more than, say, $75 for it. Someone won the item for > almost $300. That's far more than I would ever have paid. And while it is momentarily disapoining when I'm the second-highest bidder and I find the item sold for 'only $1 more than I was prepared to pay' (or whatever the bid increment is), I then rememebr that I have no way of knwoing what the high bidder's limit was. I was probslby otubit by a lot more than $1. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Oct 2 14:35:56 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2010 20:35:56 +0100 (BST) Subject: Cats and classic computers... In-Reply-To: from "Zane H. Healy" at Oct 1, 10 03:08:58 pm Message-ID: > Cats like classic computers, and our Feline Overlords "encourage" us to get > them the hardware they desire. One of my previous cats had a liking for anythign HP. He would routinely sleep on HP manuals and ignore, say, DEC ones :-). The cat who currently chooses to live with me (a stray ginger and white cat who I've given a simple 4-letter name to [1]) hasn't shown any particular manufacturer bias yet. But he's deficed that PERQs are there to be climbed on :-). [1] It's a common 4-letter word. You can deduce it as follows : He's a (partly) amher cat. Think of the ancient Greek word for 'Amber', then think of the obvious connection with that, and then realise that he's somewhat heavy. -tony From eric at brouhaha.com Sat Oct 2 14:50:35 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sat, 02 Oct 2010 12:50:35 -0700 Subject: Ones' complement adder/subtractor In-Reply-To: <4CA72437.7372.9BDFEE@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4CA5DD49.6758.E74274@cclist.sydex.com>, <4CA711A8.31587.5361C3@cclist.sydex.com>, <4CA77F58.7080403@brouhaha.com> <4CA72437.7372.9BDFEE@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4CA78D0B.60901@brouhaha.com> Chuck wrote: > It's hard to believe that the approach used in the Sun patent hadn't > been used commercially before. That's what I meant by "prior art". In patent-speak, what you mean is that you're surpised that there isn't some earlier commercial development which qualifies as prior art to invalidate the Sun claims. The Sun patent can only be prior art for things that come after it. Eric From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Sat Oct 2 14:51:10 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sat, 02 Oct 2010 20:51:10 +0100 Subject: WTD: Copy of CD from "Programming Psion Computers" Message-ID: <4CA78D2E.6080002@philpem.me.uk> Hi guys, Does anyone happen to have a copy of "Programming Psion Computers" by Leigh Edwards (published by EMCC Software) sitting on the bookshelf? I've just bought a copy, complete with CD.... but the good ol' Royal Mail have managed to snap the CD clean in two. An ISO image or CD-R copy would be most useful... The publisher has gone bust, and I haven't managed to find any trace of the author either :( Thanks, -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From eric at brouhaha.com Sat Oct 2 15:19:17 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sat, 02 Oct 2010 13:19:17 -0700 Subject: Ones' complement adder/subtractor In-Reply-To: <4CA76BB6.9070404@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4CA5DD49.6758.E74274@cclist.sydex.com>, <803073.42025.qm@web82603.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4CA63390.31553.2384A9A@cclist.sydex.com> <4CA762D7.3000204@brouhaha.com> <4CA76BB6.9070404@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4CA793C5.40900@brouhaha.com> Ben wrote: > Then again watch the hardware, a FPGA with fast hardware ripple carry may do something sneaky to the logic. It might use carry-lookahead internally, but it doesn't give you access to generate and propagate outputs, so if you want those you'll have to do it yourself. That makes the Honeywell approach generally less suited to FPGA use. Eric From cclist at sydex.com Sat Oct 2 15:27:59 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 02 Oct 2010 13:27:59 -0700 Subject: Ones' complement adder/subtractor In-Reply-To: <4CA78D0B.60901@brouhaha.com> References: <4CA5DD49.6758.E74274@cclist.sydex.com>, <4CA72437.7372.9BDFEE@cclist.sydex.com>, <4CA78D0B.60901@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4CA7335F.19679.D71278@cclist.sydex.com> On 2 Oct 2010 at 12:50, Eric Smith wrote: > In patent-speak, what you mean is that you're surpised that there > isn't some earlier commercial development which qualifies as prior art > to invalidate the Sun claims. The Sun patent can only be prior art for > things that come after it. I misspoke--that's what I meant. --Chuck From tingox at gmail.com Sat Oct 2 07:34:54 2010 From: tingox at gmail.com (Torfinn Ingolfsen) Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2010 14:34:54 +0200 Subject: Need Help Finding Docs In-Reply-To: <8CD2FE2B79AB6B0-12C4-814E@Webmail-m113.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CD2FE2B79AB6B0-12C4-814E@Webmail-m113.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Oct 2, 2010 at 2:48 AM, wrote: > Hello > Does anyone have any information on a VTEK Braille Display Processor > computer? I have one but can not find anything of help using google, bing, > or yahoo to search. The one I have is a model BDP-ACT II. Any help would be > great. > > Thanks > JK > Is it something like these? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refreshable_Braille_display Do you have pictures? -- Regards, Torfinn Ingolfsen From pinball at telus.net Sat Oct 2 10:48:34 2010 From: pinball at telus.net (John Robertson) Date: Sat, 02 Oct 2010 08:48:34 -0700 Subject: Latest eBay seller BS In-Reply-To: <20101001221206.C84833@shell.lmi.net> References: <20101001221206.C84833@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4CA75452.4050703@telus.net> Fred Cisin wrote: > On Fri, 1 Oct 2010, Tony Duell wrote: > >> 3) In the last few seconds a shill puts in an outlandish bid (say $1000 >> for a itme that noone would pay more than $50 for). Of course he wins it >> 4) The shill bid is withdreawn by 'mutual ageeement' giving reasons like >> 'The buyer didn't realise it wasn't '. >> 5) But the seller now knows the highest legitimate bid limit. He then >> offers the item to that buyer at that price. Point being, he's getting >> that bid limit, not the real high bid (one incement over the second >> highest bid limit) >> > > another variant: > 3) well before the end, the shill puts in a completely ridiculous bid. > 4) the active bid is moved to one increment over your bid. > 5) the shill retracts the "mistaken" bid - "my keyboard stuck" > 6) the shill, or shill#2, now places a bid just below yours, so that when > you win the auction, it is at your maximum bid. > > That's why I only 'snipe' bid on auctions. Chances of this happening are much rarer, and I only put in my snipe offer the most I am willing to pay. Win many, loose some, usually much less than I was willing to offer. If it is something very rare I still use the same process. The shill bidders will pull out at the last few minutes and my bid is put in the last second so no chance of shilling. If the shill looses by winning the auction they will put the item up again later giving me another chance - this time the auction usually is less as a number of people simply give up and move on to something else... I also don't watch the auction bids, otherwise I might get caught up in the action and over-ride my snipe. John :-#)# From csquared3 at tx.rr.com Sat Oct 2 11:16:56 2010 From: csquared3 at tx.rr.com (Charlie Carothers) Date: Sat, 02 Oct 2010 11:16:56 -0500 Subject: Evolution of the Apple Mouse In-Reply-To: <4CA33E59.31447.1280FBF@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4CA25F7A.6040706@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Sep 28, 10 05:34:50 pm, <4CA33E59.31447.1280FBF@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4CA75AF8.5050802@tx.rr.com> On 9/29/2010 3:25 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Somewhat on-topic and coincidental, EDN's "Prying Eyes" series looks > at a nearly-40-year-old Sharp microwave oven and marvels at the > simplicity and robust design. What I gather from the article is that > the oven still works fine: > > http://bit.ly/dA6bSM > > What's notable is the electromechanical timer. How many microwave > ovens made 20 years later with electronic controls are still > functional? > > --Chuck > > I can't really answer your question of course, but I can tell you that we have a GE microwave purchased about 1987 with electronic controls that still works just fine. The logic power supply in it must have minimal filtering, as we get the "PF" indication any time there is the slightest power blip and when all other electronic clocks in the house show no effect. I do worry sometimes about all the appliances we have with IMHO unnecessary electronics since we don't have a whole house surge supressor. e.g. Clothes washer and dryer, range, refrigerator. The only things we've ever lost that I think I can blame on surges are a couple of telephones. Those may have been telco line surges rather than power line ones for all I know. Later, Charlie C. From jonas at otter.se Sat Oct 2 13:06:27 2010 From: jonas at otter.se (Jonas Otter) Date: Sat, 02 Oct 2010 18:06:27 +0000 Subject: Another 935 shot... Message-ID: On Fri Oct 1 16:39:32 CDT 2010, Tony Duell (ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk) submitted the following words of wisdom: >> >> Ok, can't resist. I'm just so happy to have this machine! >> >> Mark >> >> http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=5153811&l=e3d7fbce9f&id=734972117 >> http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=5153808&l=e4aaef5843&id=734972117 > > What is it with classic computer people and cats :-) > > -tony Have you played the card game called "Chez Geek"? If you have, and you didn't know it before, you would have learned that cats are an essential companion to any geek who is really serious about his or her geekhood. /Jonas From philpem at philpem.me.uk Sat Oct 2 13:56:22 2010 From: philpem at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sat, 02 Oct 2010 19:56:22 +0100 Subject: WTD: Copy of CD from "Programming Psion Computers" Message-ID: <4CA78056.3050204@philpem.me.uk> Hi guys, Does anyone happen to have a copy of "Programming Psion Computers" by Leigh Edwards (published by EMCC Software) sitting on the bookshelf? I've just bought a copy, complete with CD.... but the good ol' Royal Mail have managed to snap the CD clean in two. An ISO image or CD-R copy would be most useful... The publisher has gone bust, and I haven't managed to find any trace of the author either :( Thanks, -- Phil. philpem at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From alexeyt at freeshell.org Sat Oct 2 16:01:04 2010 From: alexeyt at freeshell.org (Alexey Toptygin) Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2010 21:01:04 +0000 (UTC) Subject: FS: Assembler Language Programming, Systems/360 and 370 In-Reply-To: <2j1fa6h2jegfv0oqbksu530hkchpuh9pln@4ax.com> References: <2j1fa6h2jegfv0oqbksu530hkchpuh9pln@4ax.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 2 Oct 2010, Charles wrote: > More old stuff I don't need but you might :) > > Large paperback textbook, "Assembler Language Programming > Systems/360 and 370" by Sharon K. Tuggle, 1975, 511 pages. > $5 plus actual Media Mail shipping. If it's not claimed already, I'd like it! Do you take paypal? I'm in 27606... Alexey From jthecman at netscape.net Sat Oct 2 16:26:01 2010 From: jthecman at netscape.net (jthecman at netscape.net) Date: Sat, 02 Oct 2010 17:26:01 -0400 Subject: Need Help Finding Docs In-Reply-To: References: <8CD2FE2B79AB6B0-12C4-814E@Webmail-m113.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <8CD308F8B9C5176-714-1D907@webmail-m039.sysops.aol.com> -----Original Message----- From: Torfinn Ingolfsen To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only Sent: Sat, Oct 2, 2010 7:34 am Subject: Re: Need Help Finding Docs On Sat, Oct 2, 2010 at 2:48 AM, wrote: > Hello > Does anyone have any information on a VTEK Braille Display Processor > computer? I have one but can not find anything of help using google, bing, > or yahoo to search. The one I have is a model BDP-ACT II. Any help would be > great. > > Thanks > JK > Is it something like these? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refreshable_Braille_display Do you have pictures? -- Regards, Torfinn Ingolfsen No it looks nothing like the ones in the pictures. I will get one or two on Monday when I check the warehouse. From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sat Oct 2 18:49:42 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2010 16:49:42 -0700 Subject: Ones' complement adder/subtractor In-Reply-To: <4CA762D7.3000204@brouhaha.com> References: <4CA5DD49.6758.E74274@cclist.sydex.com>, , <803073.42025.qm@web82603.mail.mud.yahoo.com>, <4CA63390.31553.2384A9A@cclist.sydex.com>, <4CA762D7.3000204@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: > From: eric at brouhaha.com > > On 10/01/2010 07:16 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > patent 4,298,952 uses > > ancillary logic to generate a carry-lookahead signal independent of > > the adder. I'm not sure if this accomplishes much. > > It does exactly what you've asked for. The point of it is that if > you're using off-the shelf parts, or off-the-shelf standard cells in an > ASIC, you already can get adders with the carry lookahead logic. In an > FPGA you don't, so the dual-adder design you described (and Sun > patented) will generally have lower resource utilization and be faster. > > Eric > Hi Another possible is to put an incrementor on the output. This is a simpler circuit than a full adder. Dwight From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sat Oct 2 19:22:03 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2010 17:22:03 -0700 Subject: They don't make them like they used to In-Reply-To: References: , <1285906246.2292.5.camel@fubar.kaput.homeunix.org>, Message-ID: > From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com > > Wow. That's loaded. I have a SYM-1 but I've never seen the KTM2 > keyboard before. > > -ethan > > Hi Ethan I have two KTM2 ( neather for sale ). They two basic versions. One was 40 column only and the other could be converted to an 80 column. Both of mine are 40 column only but I've been trying to figure out how to modify it to do 80. I have the schematic for the 40 but not the one that can be converted to an 80. Dwight From eric at brouhaha.com Sat Oct 2 19:30:48 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sat, 02 Oct 2010 17:30:48 -0700 Subject: Ones' complement adder/subtractor In-Reply-To: References: <4CA5DD49.6758.E74274@cclist.sydex.com>, , <803073.42025.qm@web82603.mail.mud.yahoo.com>, <4CA63390.31553.2384A9A@cclist.sydex.com>, <4CA762D7.3000204@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4CA7CEB8.1080409@brouhaha.com> Dwight wrote: > Another possible is to put an incrementor on the output. > This is a simpler circuit than a full adder. In "discrete" logic, or in an ASIC, it is simpler. In most FPGAs, it will end up taking the same resources and having the same performance as a full-adder. Eric From rescue at hawkmountain.net Sat Oct 2 19:37:00 2010 From: rescue at hawkmountain.net (Curtis H. Wilbar Jr.) Date: Sat, 02 Oct 2010 20:37:00 -0400 Subject: anyone coming up through MD towards (or to, or beyond) MA sometime this year ? Message-ID: <4CA7D02C.1030909@hawkmountain.net> Have a BA23 pedestal enclosure I'd like to get from Rockville MD area.... and the local UPS store down there wan'ts $60ish for packing materials/packing charge (the $30+ to ship). So, thought I'd see if anyone was making a run through that area up this way per chance. Probably not, but thought I'd check anyway. Let me know if you are. Thanks, -- Curt From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sat Oct 2 21:23:17 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2010 19:23:17 -0700 Subject: Ones' complement adder/subtractor In-Reply-To: <4CA7CEB8.1080409@brouhaha.com> References: <4CA5DD49.6758.E74274@cclist.sydex.com>, , , <803073.42025.qm@web82603.mail.mud.yahoo.com>, , <4CA63390.31553.2384A9A@cclist.sydex.com>, , <4CA762D7.3000204@brouhaha.com>, , <4CA7CEB8.1080409@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: > From: eric at brouhaha.com > > Dwight wrote: > > Another possible is to put an incrementor on the output. > > This is a simpler circuit than a full adder. > > In "discrete" logic, or in an ASIC, it is simpler. > > In most FPGAs, it will end up taking the same resources and having the > same performance as a full-adder. > > Eric > Hi Half area but just as long in time. Dwight From eric at brouhaha.com Sat Oct 2 21:45:58 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sat, 02 Oct 2010 19:45:58 -0700 Subject: Ones' complement adder/subtractor In-Reply-To: References: <4CA5DD49.6758.E74274@cclist.sydex.com>, , , <803073.42025.qm@web82603.mail.mud.yahoo.com>, , <4CA63390.31553.2384A9A@cclist.sydex.com>, , <4CA762D7.3000204@brouhaha.com>, , <4CA7CEB8.1080409@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4CA7EE66.5050304@brouhaha.com> Dwight wrote: > Another possible is to put an incrementor on the output. > This is a simpler circuit than a full adder. I wrote: >> In "discrete" logic, or in an ASIC, it is simpler. In most FPGAs, it >> will end up taking the same resources and having the same performance >> as a full-adder. Dwight wrote: > Half area but just as long in time. Same area in FPGA, not half. Almost all FPGAs use LUTs with four or more inputs, and half-adders generally end up taking a full LUT, just as a full-adder does. The exception would be when the incrementer (half-adders) could be merged with the previous stage of logic, but when the incrementer follows a full-adder, you can't merge them, because they each need a separate carry chain. Eric From charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net Sat Oct 2 21:56:51 2010 From: charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net (Charles) Date: Sat, 02 Oct 2010 21:56:51 -0500 Subject: Semi-OT: Texas Instruments calculator battery packs? Message-ID: Does anyone know where I can find a BP-8 battery pack for my TI Programmer (calculator) that I've owned since the early 80's? It has a small dc-dc converter and two AA nicads inside, supplying 9 volts to the snap-on connector. The board is corroded beyond salvaging by badly leaked nicads :( It will run on a 9 volt battery too (max drain with all digits on is 44 ma according to this interesting German site): http://www.christophlorenz.de/calc/ti/programmer.php?l=en and I suppose I could just put one inside the plastic housing of the BP-8 which of course would not be rechargeable. I also need a pack for my otherwise clean SR-51A, a BP-1A. This would be trivial to repair except that it's completely missing and I have no idea where it went! thanks Charles From charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net Sat Oct 2 22:13:20 2010 From: charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net (Charles) Date: Sat, 02 Oct 2010 22:13:20 -0500 Subject: TI calculator battery packs cont'd Message-ID: I just found another great site in Germany: http://www.stschmid.de/calculators/ in which he redesigned the dc-dc converter board inside the BP-8 with surface-mount components, and even sells them... for $25 plus $12 postage :( Guess I'll be using 9V batteries, or perhaps tuck a rechargeable one (which is really only 8.4 volts) inside the plastic case with a suitable diode and resistor for charging from the wall-wart. From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sat Oct 2 22:45:35 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2010 20:45:35 -0700 Subject: Ones' complement adder/subtractor In-Reply-To: <4CA7EE66.5050304@brouhaha.com> References: <4CA5DD49.6758.E74274@cclist.sydex.com>, , ,,<803073.42025.qm@web82603.mail.mud.yahoo.com>, ,,<4CA63390.31553.2384A9A@cclist.sydex.com>, , , <4CA762D7.3000204@brouhaha.com>, , , , <4CA7CEB8.1080409@brouhaha.com>, , <4CA7EE66.5050304@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: > From: eric at brouhaha.com > > Dwight wrote: > > Another possible is to put an incrementor on the output. > > This is a simpler circuit than a full adder. > > I wrote: > >> In "discrete" logic, or in an ASIC, it is simpler. In most FPGAs, it > >> will end up taking the same resources and having the same performance > >> as a full-adder. > Dwight wrote: > > Half area but just as long in time. > Same area in FPGA, not half. Almost all FPGAs use LUTs with four or > more inputs, and half-adders generally end up taking a full LUT, just as > a full-adder does. The exception would be when the incrementer > (half-adders) could be merged with the previous stage of logic, but when > the incrementer follows a full-adder, you can't merge them, because they > each need a separate carry chain. > > Eric > Haaa! Evil FPGA! Would it be possible to put two half adders in a single LUT? Dwight From eric at brouhaha.com Sat Oct 2 23:06:12 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sat, 02 Oct 2010 21:06:12 -0700 Subject: Ones' complement adder/subtractor In-Reply-To: References: <4CA5DD49.6758.E74274@cclist.sydex.com>, , , , <803073.42025.qm@web82603.mail.mud.yahoo.com>, , , <4CA63390.31553.2384A9A@cclist.sydex.com>, , , <4CA762D7.3000204@brouhaha.com>, , , , <4CA7CEB8.1080409@brouhaha.com>, , <4CA7EE66.5050304@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4CA80134.6070500@brouhaha.com> Dwight asks: > Haaa! Evil FPGA! > Would it be possible to put two half adders in a single LUT? Dwight Generally not. Traditional Xilinx FPGAs, such as the Virtex-4 and Spartan-3 families, use a logic element that consists of a 4-LUT (four-input Look-Up Table) and a flip-flop. (You don't have to use the flip-flop.) There are some added complications such as the dedicated carry logic chain. The 4-LUT is a 16-word 1-bit RAM, and gets loaded when the FPGA is configured. It can generate a single boolean function of up to four inputs. The reason I say "generally not" is that recent Xilinx FPGAs, such as the Virtex-5, Virtex-6, and Spartan-6, use what Xilinx calls a 6-LUT, with two flip-flops. This can be used as two 5-LUTs to generate two functions of five inputs, provided that the same five inputs are shared between both functions. You actually could put two half-adders into one of these 6-LUTs, if you didn't want to take advantage of the dedicated carry logic chain. However, the dedicated carry logic chain is much faster than the usual through-the-fabric routing, so if you need your one's complement adder to have high performance, you won't want to do it that way. Eric From Kevin at RawFedDogs.net Sat Oct 2 23:47:37 2010 From: Kevin at RawFedDogs.net (Kevin Monceaux) Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2010 23:47:37 -0500 Subject: Cats (Was: Another 935 shot...) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20101003044737.GA28804@RawFedDogs.net> On Fri, Oct 01, 2010 at 10:39:32PM +0100, Tony Duell wrote: > What is it with classic computer people and cats :-) Beats me. I have seven dogs, no cats. -- Kevin http://www.RawFedDogs.net http://www.WacoAgilityGroup.org Bruceville, TX What's the definition of a legacy system? One that works! Errare humanum est, ignoscere caninum. From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Sun Oct 3 00:21:47 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2010 02:21:47 -0300 Subject: Another 935 shot... References: Message-ID: <177401cb62bb$0bc30e10$0600000a@portajara> > Cats like classic computers, and our Feline Overlords "encourage" us to > get > them the hardware they desire. BTW, any tips to xoo out my cat out of here? I can't work, Mimi wants to sit on keyboard all day long!!! :oP From jlobocki at gmail.com Sat Oct 2 16:39:18 2010 From: jlobocki at gmail.com (joe lobocki) Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2010 16:39:18 -0500 Subject: Latest eBay seller BS In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: another issue I had was that I once bid on a car part, and won the bid, at $1.00 (no reserve) and $25 shipping, so after winning he waited a week, then when I asked about it, no response, just refunded the $26. The key here, is if you don't want to sell it for $1, don't list it for $1, simply use a reserve or put it at the actual price. On Sat, Oct 2, 2010 at 2:31 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > > That's the same thinking that I have. I put in my max bid and if > > someone outbids me, they outbid me. I've bid on something like > > "Logitech Modula/2 for OS/2", which I wanted. A lot. But I wasn't > > willing to pay more than, say, $75 for it. Someone won the item for > > almost $300. That's far more than I would ever have paid. > > And while it is momentarily disapoining when I'm the second-highest bidder > and I find the item sold for 'only $1 more than I was prepared to pay' (or > whatever the bid increment is), I then rememebr that I have no way of > knwoing what the high bidder's limit was. I was probslby otubit by a lot > more than $1. > > -tony > From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Oct 3 00:48:49 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2010 22:48:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Another 935 shot... In-Reply-To: <177401cb62bb$0bc30e10$0600000a@portajara> References: <177401cb62bb$0bc30e10$0600000a@portajara> Message-ID: <20101002224717.P9582@shell.lmi.net> On Sun, 3 Oct 2010, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > BTW, any tips to xoo out my cat out of here? I can't work, Mimi > wants to sit on keyboard all day long!!! :oP You need to buy extra mice and keyboards for your cats. They seem to prefer the IBM model M. From mdavidson1963 at gmail.com Sun Oct 3 00:53:04 2010 From: mdavidson1963 at gmail.com (Mark Davidson) Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2010 22:53:04 -0700 Subject: Latest eBay seller BS In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Oct 2, 2010 at 2:39 PM, joe lobocki wrote: > another issue I had was that I once bid on a car part, and won the bid, at > $1.00 (no reserve) and $25 shipping, so after winning he waited a week, then > when I asked about it, no response, just refunded the $26. The key here, is > if you don't want to sell it for $1, don't list it for $1, simply use a > reserve or put it at the actual price. A few weeks ago, I bid on a European-to-USA plug converter for a cheap tablet I had bought from a company in China. Opening bid was 50 cents with free shipping. I won and it cost me exactly 50 cents, and the seller did ship it for free. Mark From mdavidson1963 at gmail.com Sun Oct 3 00:53:40 2010 From: mdavidson1963 at gmail.com (Mark Davidson) Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2010 22:53:40 -0700 Subject: Latest eBay seller BS In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Oct 2, 2010 at 10:53 PM, Mark Davidson wrote: > On Sat, Oct 2, 2010 at 2:39 PM, joe lobocki wrote: >> another issue I had was that I once bid on a car part, and won the bid, at >> $1.00 (no reserve) and $25 shipping, so after winning he waited a week, then >> when I asked about it, no response, just refunded the $26. The key here, is >> if you don't want to sell it for $1, don't list it for $1, simply use a >> reserve or put it at the actual price. > > A few weeks ago, I bid on a European-to-USA plug converter for a cheap > tablet I had bought from a company in China. ?Opening bid was 50 cents > with free shipping. ?I won and it cost me exactly 50 cents, and the > seller did ship it for free. Oh, and I should add that the seller was in Hong Kong, and he shipped it air mail. Mark From teoz at neo.rr.com Sun Oct 3 01:43:41 2010 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2010 02:43:41 -0400 Subject: Latest eBay seller BS References: Message-ID: <810E85E7A5FB4F4FB5C1BCA28B66FCEF@dell8300> Seems like some of those sellers get free shipping somehow. I won items that winning amount could not have covered shipping. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Davidson" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Sunday, October 03, 2010 1:53 AM Subject: Re: Latest eBay seller BS On Sat, Oct 2, 2010 at 10:53 PM, Mark Davidson wrote: > On Sat, Oct 2, 2010 at 2:39 PM, joe lobocki wrote: >> another issue I had was that I once bid on a car part, and won the bid, >> at >> $1.00 (no reserve) and $25 shipping, so after winning he waited a week, >> then >> when I asked about it, no response, just refunded the $26. The key here, >> is >> if you don't want to sell it for $1, don't list it for $1, simply use a >> reserve or put it at the actual price. > > A few weeks ago, I bid on a European-to-USA plug converter for a cheap > tablet I had bought from a company in China. Opening bid was 50 cents > with free shipping. I won and it cost me exactly 50 cents, and the > seller did ship it for free. Oh, and I should add that the seller was in Hong Kong, and he shipped it air mail. Mark From IanK at vulcan.com Sun Oct 3 02:27:14 2010 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2010 00:27:14 -0700 Subject: Voice recognition will never kill the keyboard was: Re: Evolution In-Reply-To: References: from "Richard" at Oct 1, 10 11:51:35 am, Message-ID: But if your initial interaction is not with a keyboard but with a touchscreen (as is more common with mobile devices), then the argument is different. Yes, I've dealt with older touch screen machines, and felt that they just weren't Ready For Prime Time. The new tablet devices usually take good advantage of a touchscreen and recognize that it isn't a mouse - it's something different in a pointing device. This is about a fundamental change in how people interact with computing devices. -- Ian ________________________________________ From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tony Duell [ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk] Sent: Saturday, October 02, 2010 11:59 AM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Voice recognition will never kill the keyboard was: Re: Evolution > For the existing apps that are mouse-centric, I see touchscreens > replacing them, but for things that are text-centric I don't see that > as a good transition. TOuchscreens have been tried in the past (the most obviosu example is the HP150 'Touchscreen PC') and I think they were always found to be less convenient to use than a mouse or trackball. You have to move your hand further (keyboard to screen rather than keyboard to mouse on desk near keybaord), and you arm/hand is not supported (e.g. by resting it on the desk) when you are doing the pointing. -tony From ploopster at gmail.com Sun Oct 3 02:51:15 2010 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sun, 03 Oct 2010 03:51:15 -0400 Subject: Another 935 shot... In-Reply-To: <20101002224717.P9582@shell.lmi.net> References: <177401cb62bb$0bc30e10$0600000a@portajara> <20101002224717.P9582@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4CA835F3.90903@gmail.com> Fred Cisin wrote: >> BTW, any tips to xoo out my cat out of here? I can't work, Mimi >> wants to sit on keyboard all day long!!! :oP > > You need to buy extra mice and keyboards for your cats. > They seem to prefer the IBM model M. Similar to how cab drivers prefer beaded seatcovers? Peace... Sridhar From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Oct 3 03:18:25 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2010 01:18:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Another 935 shot... In-Reply-To: <4CA835F3.90903@gmail.com> References: <177401cb62bb$0bc30e10$0600000a@portajara> <20101002224717.P9582@shell.lmi.net> <4CA835F3.90903@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20101003011528.H9582@shell.lmi.net> > > You need to buy extra mice and keyboards for your cats. > > They seem to prefer the IBM model M. On Sun, 3 Oct 2010, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Similar to how cab drivers prefer beaded seatcovers? Exactly! You can either engage in a futile losing struggle to try to keep them off of your keyboard, or you can give them their own keyboards. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun Oct 3 03:47:36 2010 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2010 09:47:36 +0100 Subject: Spec of Memory for a DEC Alpha 433au Message-ID: <009501cb62d7$a23d05f0$e6b711d0$@ntlworld.com> I am trying to work out what kind of memory to look for to fit in my 433au. I can see it need 168-pin ECC SDRAM, but I am not clear if it can be unbuffered or if it must be registered and whether I need PC100 or PC133. I can also see that the notches on the side to hold the DIMMs in place seem to be higher up than on most of the DIMMs I can find, not sure if there is a particular technical term I should include in my searches for this. Can anyone tell me the required spec? Thanks Rob From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Oct 3 08:57:54 2010 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2010 06:57:54 -0700 Subject: Spec of Memory for a DEC Alpha 433au In-Reply-To: <009501cb62d7$a23d05f0$e6b711d0$@ntlworld.com> References: <009501cb62d7$a23d05f0$e6b711d0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: At 9:47 AM +0100 10/3/10, Rob Jarratt wrote: >I am trying to work out what kind of memory to look for to fit in my 433au. >I can see it need 168-pin ECC SDRAM, but I am not clear if it can be >unbuffered or if it must be registered and whether I need PC100 or PC133. I >can also see that the notches on the side to hold the DIMMs in place seem to >be higher up than on most of the DIMMs I can find, not sure if there is a >particular technical term I should include in my searches for this. > >Can anyone tell me the required spec? Wow, ancient history. :-( IIRC, you need either PC66 or PC100, I don't remember the buffered part, but I think you need parity RAM. I've used RAM out of PC servers in most of my Alpha's (the one exception being my AlphaStation 500/333 which uses proprietary RAM). The DEC 3000/133 & AlphaStation 200 take 72-pin true parity RAM, and the Compaq XP1000's take something at least close to the 433a/au, 500a/au, and 600a/au systems. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | From lproven at gmail.com Sun Oct 3 09:52:44 2010 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2010 15:52:44 +0100 Subject: Evolution of the Apple Mouse In-Reply-To: <4CA62F71.6030206@gmail.com> References: <4CA41FCD.6050004@neurotica.com> <4CA49503.9000108@gmail.com> <4CA62F71.6030206@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 1 October 2010 19:58, Jules Richardson wrote: > Liam Proven wrote: >> >> On 30 September 2010 14:47, Jules Richardson >> wrote: >>> >>> Hmm, I think X windows had something similar at one time - middle button >>> to >>> drag the bar, left button to automatically go up and page and right >>> button >>> to go down a page (if I remember right, it did jump by a screenful, >>> rather >>> than smaller increments) >> >> Interesting. I have played with a fairly primitive X setup, no modern >> window managers and so on, and yes, it did some of that, but I'd not >> registered the direction-switching bit, which (for my money) is the >> core usability feature. ISTR going "ooh, it's like RISC OS", playing >> to see if the features I liked were there, and being disappointed - >> but I might have missed it. > > I don't think it was quite as smooth as Acorn's implementation. I think > there was also functionality in some setups where the amount that the window > scrolled by on a left or right click was dependent on how close to the top > or bottom (or left/right) the mouse pointer was on the window's scrollbars - > but that was a pretty awful feature (because it was hard to judge exactly > how much the window would scroll by for a particular mouse position) Ouch. That sounds unpleasant to navigate. The sort of bright idea a programmer has that makes life difficult for thousands of ordinary users. >>> I've got some internal Acorn emails from that era related to their UI >>> design >>> - one day I'll have to see about 'releasing' them. It's interesting >>> reading, >>> seeing their thoughts about what features they should implement, and >>> their >>> analysis of what the competition was up to. >> >> Oh, that would be cool! > > Yeah, aside from the copyright issue, it's finding the time to sift through > everything and make sure there's nothing *really* sensitive there - e.g. > some of the data came from employee desktop machines, which means that > there's personal data on there as well as corporate stuff. Ah. Snag. Also, possibly, a lot of consent to be sought? >>> Hmm, those Dyson bladeless fans, maybe? (No idea how that technology >>> works, >>> or if it needs a minimum size to do so effectively). >> >> They cheat. It does have conventional fans, with blades, they're just >> concealed within the base. No whizzy electrostatic impellers or >> anything here. Nothing to see, move along. :?) > > Urgh :-( I did wonder, but the ads and corporate blurb all go one about them > being bladeless when what they really mean is 'no visible blades' Yup. Sad, really. http://www.reghardware.com/2010/06/23/review_gadgets_dyson_air_multiplier/print.html Quote: ? Dyson is slightly deceptive with its marketing, claiming the fan has "no blades". This is like hiding the wheels of a car behind a low body and claiming it hovers. There are blades - you just can't see them. ? >> But like it or not, the PC is moving toward being a consumer >> appliance, like TVs or phones. There are no commercial TV or phone >> repairmen around any more; the PC will go the same way. >> >> The question is, will they do it well or not? > > I'd put my money on not. Nobody gives a crap about quality any more :-( True. >> And if the big players don't, is there room for a small company to >> make money doing it right? > > Maybe, but it's difficult. A small company won't have the marketing budget, > which means they have to rely far more on word of mouth - and it's difficult > these days to survive long enough to establish a reputation. Once you're > there, not so bad, but getting to that point is the problem. Also true, but it seems to work for some hifi companies. >>> What I >>> really dislike are mice that try to be too ergonomic (OK if you have an >>> average hand size and are right-handed, bad for everyone else) or which >>> have >>> too many unnecessary buttons (3 is good, more is pointless) >> >> Entirely agree. But no buttons is also an infinite number of buttons, >> in a way. > > Yes, but an infinite number of buttons with poor feedback :-) Humans like > audible and tactile responses, just as they like visual ones. A telling point! >> Apple /were/ right, like it or not - there are abundant >> >> figures to prove it. 1 button *is* the easiest for novices. > > I agree - but I think it's also a hindrance for more experienced users. > Maybe we need 3-button mice, but an OS that can run in 'single button mode' > for novices, where they don't have to worry about which mouse button they > have to press :-) Well, that is exactly what Apple's efforts do. >> Mind you, come to that, as ordinary user PCs migrate to being >> multi-touch-operated slates, it could be that mice will disappear >> altogether. Keyboards too, when the speech recognition gets good >> enough. > > I think a lot of the reason that the entire world isn't using Model M's is > the noise factor, though - I'm not sure I could handle an office full of > people babbling away at their computers :-) I know what you mean, and yet, I worked quite happily in computer labs in the 1980s. > Maybe 50 years from now we'll be able to control computers via thought - > that would get rid of a lot of the bottlenecks (I can think far faster than > I can type or speak) and would be silent... The best computer interface I've ever read of was in an Isaac Asimov novel, way back when. One of the later /Foundation/ books, I think. It was in the master stateroom of a private "space yacht". You sat at a table, put your hands on two lighted handprints, and *suddenly got smarter*. You knew the exact positions of all the nearby stars, could do extremely complex math instantly in your head, had perfect recall and an innate sense of local conditions in space. No awareness of any interface whatsoever is surely the best possible interface. >>>> I want the thing to have a damned cable, though, not a wireless >>>> transciever and batteries. >>> >>> Yes, me too - I like the reliability of cables. There was a lot of >>> hoo-hah >>> about wireless charging a couple of years ago, but that seems to have >>> gone >>> quiet for the moment (it'd at least solve the battery swap problem) >> >> Oh, it's coming. Much argument over techniques and standards. They'll >> squabble for a while then make it work. > > I seem to recall ads for some wireless phone charger here in the US a year > or two ago, but then it all went quiet. Not sure why - maybe their tech just > didn't work, or maybe people just didn't believe that it was real. Palm offered it with the Pr? as an optional extra. > It doesn't seem unreasonable to have a mouse mat that doubles as a charging > pad, though. I am not sure I want a mouse mat that I have to plug in, nor one cluttered with charging devices... :?) >>>> As for keyboards, well, some of my Model Ms are now pushing 25, so I >>>> am not worried about their longevity. :?) >>> >>> Yes, this one turns 25 next year :-) >> >> Aha! I think this particular one is a relative youngster, from 1993. > > Mine's so ancient that it doesn't even have the status LEDs on it. I do > kind-of miss a caps-lock LED - one of my tests for an apparently-hung system > was always to hit the caps-lock and see if the LED lit; invariably it > wouldn't if the machine had gone completely loopy. Yes, me too. Also, wow, that's an oldie! -- Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From lproven at gmail.com Sun Oct 3 09:54:18 2010 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2010 15:54:18 +0100 Subject: Evolution of the Apple Mouse In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 1 October 2010 22:11, Tony Duell wrote: >> You use a mouse? I'd have thought that was a bit modern for you, Tony! > > Oh, I have many machines with mice. I don;'t think I have anything that > uses a normal PC style PS/2 or USB or RS232 mouse, though. Mybe I do, I > think the Whitechapel Hitech takes an RS232 mouse, but I've not sorted > that one out yet. > > Plenty of machines with quadrature mice : PERQ 3A, Whitechapel MG1, > Acorn Archimedes, Atari ST, Amiga. etc. And if you include Trackballs, > I've got several image display iuntis for the PDP11 that use them. Ahh, fair enough. *Thinks* Wouldn't an upgraded Archimedes, or some other recent RISC OS machine such as an Iyonix, be a better tool for accessing the Internet than a PC-AT with a 486? > And HP-HIL mince (HP Integral, HP150-II, etc). > > And the Kriz mouse on the PERQ 2s (but that's more of a graphics tablet, > I supose) > > The PC I am typing this on doesn't ahve a mouse, though. WHat use would > it be on an MDA (text only) display? Helpful with text editing, occasionally. I used MS-Word 4.0 for DOS on a few PCs with mice but no GUI. Not really worth the effort, though, to be fair. -- Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From lproven at gmail.com Sun Oct 3 09:57:53 2010 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2010 15:57:53 +0100 Subject: Evolution of the Apple Mouse In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 1 October 2010 22:20, Tony Duell wrote: >> >> On 30 September 2010 20:21, Tony Duell wrote: >> >> But more generally, I think I am seeing an interesting trend which I >> >> find positive: the gradual removal of mechanical, moving parts from >> >> PCs (and Macs). Spinning HDDs are gradually being replaced by SSDs. >> > >> > Hmm... I see this often as a negative trend in that I can fix the >> > mechanical bits (other than HDDs) and can't fix custom silicon. It may >> > be cheaper to replace, but when you have a deadline looming, the ability >> > ot get the machine workign again is very useful... >> >> Overall, I'd agree. For mass-market consumer kit, I think it might be >> good. Cheaper, faster computers are a good thing. Also, for the random > > Playinghte devil's advocate for a moment, Cheaper -> less likely to be > econmical to repair, and thus more waste sent to landfill, fewer jobs for > repairers. You're right, however, it's a /fait accompli/. I have fetched entirely-working reasonable-spec PCs out of skips before now. Thrown because they were too slow & the owners too lazy and stupid to find a way to give them to charity or recycle them. >> punter, *simpler* computers are a good thing. > > Not _ncessarily_ a good thing. > > Again, if oyu're not careful, you end up with a machine that makes simple > tasks trivial, but which can't be used for difficult tasks (or at least > makes htem a lot harder than they should be). Somehting that really > annoys me is the lack of a propper command language in many modern > window-based OSes. Computeras are good at doing the same thing over and > over agian, I should be able to tell them to do that. Concur, personally and for myself, but programming is a lost cause now. User computers are trending towards being very simple Web access devices with limited customisability and extensibility and that is what most people want. The same way they want a simple, reliable car that needs little maintenance and don't give a hoot if they can't perform that maintenance themselves. >> >> The last hold-out is the cooling fan and they are a real point of >> >> weakness, as they clog up with dust and cause the system to fail. I >> >> hope to see some improved, solid-state cooling mechanisms come along >> > >> > How are these supposed to work (without violating the 2nd law)? >> >> Well, one idea I am surprised I have not seen exploited in PCs, that I >> have already seen in hifi, is large external passive heatsinks, >> outside the case. I presume they're connected by heatpipes or >> something. Gets the heat outside the box, in the open air, where the >> user can easily clean the fins with a duster, and where it will be >> carried away by open-air circulation. > > External heatsinks on hi-fi amplifiers have been around from the tiem of > the first transitorised power amplifier :-). > > The thing is, though, audio amplifiers work at fairly low frequencies. So > you can mount the output transistors, etc, directly on the heatsink, and > link them to the rest of the components (e.g. by fitting them near the > edge of the PCB amd mounting the PCB on an angle bracket fixed ot the > heatsink. AMy amplifiers are built that way. > > But you can't do that with the much higher speed signals goign to a PC's > processor or graphics chip or whatever. The pesky speed of light gets in > the way. That is a good point, but there are heatpipes and other ways of moving heat over relatively short distances, no? Not good enough? I am genuinely curious here... -- Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From lproven at gmail.com Sun Oct 3 10:06:14 2010 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2010 16:06:14 +0100 Subject: Evolution of the Apple Mouse In-Reply-To: <4CA6736B.7080400@gmail.com> References: <4CA6736B.7080400@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 2 October 2010 00:48, Jules Richardson wrote: > Liam Proven wrote: >> >> On 30 September 2010 20:21, Tony Duell wrote: >>>> >>>> But more generally, I think I am seeing an interesting trend which I >>>> find positive: the gradual removal of mechanical, moving parts from >>>> PCs (and Macs). Spinning HDDs are gradually being replaced by SSDs. >>> >>> Hmm... I see this often as a negative trend in that I can fix the >>> mechanical bits (other than HDDs) and can't fix custom silicon. It may >>> be cheaper to replace, but when you have a deadline looming, the ability >>> ot get the machine workign again is very useful... >> >> Overall, I'd agree. For mass-market consumer kit, I think it might be >> good. Cheaper, faster computers are a good thing. Also, for the random >> punter, *simpler* computers are a good thing. > > cheaper and faster is good if that's what the consumer really needs (rather > than what marketing and peers can convince them that they need). Otherwise, > it's just wasteful. > > A quadrillion GHz CPU and a metric buttload of memory doesn't let me send > more email or allow me to write documents any faster :-) No, true, but it might start the programs much quicker. If the performance ends up being cheap, it will be offered anyway, even if not "needed". Also, vast parallel performance and stupidly-cheap local storage opens up possibilities of brute-force solutions to some of the hard problems of face/gesture/speech/etc recognition. > I could play the > latest must-have game, I suppose, if I had any interest in [modern] games. Nor do I, but I spent yesterday with some friends at a computer-games exhibition here in London. My $DEITY but some of the modern immersive 3D games are *stunning* now. Really truly beautiful rapid high-refresh real-time high-resolution wrap-around rendering, in actual 3D if you wear special LCD shutter glasses (which are tiny, light and wireless. Good job I wore contact lenses, though.) The kit is about ?250-?300 and a ?1000 PC is more than capable of generating the effects. It was really truly impressive to behold. Suddenly one realises the /point/ of an individual owning a quad-core PC with 4G of RAM and a terabyte of disk, when it can do this. The gap between the state-of-the-art and photorealistic rendering is a sort of Zeno's paradox. You are forever getting closer but never quite there. However, now, a ?40 game is at the level where at a casual glance walking past, I sometimes can't tell in-game graphics from movie footage. If you stop and look, you can, but they're getting there. /Avatar/-level rendering isn't far away. >> Well, one idea I am surprised I have not seen exploited in PCs, that I >> have already seen in hifi, is large external passive heatsinks, >> outside the case. I presume they're connected by heatpipes or >> something. Gets the heat outside the box, in the open air, where the >> user can easily clean the fins with a duster, and where it will be >> carried away by open-air circulation. > > For many* of the hifi's that I've seen, the heatsinks were usually just on > the main power transistors, and these could be mounted on the rear wall of > the case on the reverse side of the heatsink. As someone else mentioned, > there's quite a lot of stuff in a modern PC which needs cooling, and > reorganising it so that it could all sit on the back wall of the case could > be tricky. Hmmm. Good point. But if one were talking about a very small motherboard with no expansion slots - smaller than mini-ITX - might it not still be doable? > * I did have a wonderful old Pioneer with the hot zone somewhere in the > middle of the chassis; there was a grille on the underside and another one > in the middle of the wooden case-top to allow the heat to escape. I bet a > lot of them failed when people managed to block the vents :-) Oh dear... -- Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From geneb at deltasoft.com Sun Oct 3 10:22:46 2010 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2010 08:22:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Another 935 shot... In-Reply-To: <20101003011528.H9582@shell.lmi.net> References: <177401cb62bb$0bc30e10$0600000a@portajara> <20101002224717.P9582@shell.lmi.net> <4CA835F3.90903@gmail.com> <20101003011528.H9582@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 3 Oct 2010, Fred Cisin wrote: >>> You need to buy extra mice and keyboards for your cats. >>> They seem to prefer the IBM model M. > > On Sun, 3 Oct 2010, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >> Similar to how cab drivers prefer beaded seatcovers? > > Exactly! > You can either engage in a futile losing struggle to try to keep them off > of your keyboard, or you can give them their own keyboards. In which case they'll STILL be on your keyboard because even if they have their own, they like yours better. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From lproven at gmail.com Sun Oct 3 11:15:42 2010 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2010 17:15:42 +0100 Subject: Voice recognition will never kill the keyboard was: Re: Evolution In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 2 October 2010 19:59, Tony Duell wrote: >> For the existing apps that are mouse-centric, I see touchscreens >> replacing them, but for things that are text-centric I don't see that >> as a good transition. > > TOuchscreens have been tried in the past (the most obviosu example is the > HP150 'Touchscreen PC') and I think they were always found to be less > convenient to use than a mouse or trackball. You have to move your hand > further (keyboard to screen rather than keyboard to mouse on desk near > keybaord), and you arm/hand is not supported (e.g. by resting it on the > desk) when you are doing the pointing. Well, yes, in 1983 they quite definitely weren't viable yet. :?) The iPad is the defining device of this technology, at least so far. It isn't a desktop computer and doesn't try to be. It's not a Mac, it's not Mac-compatible. It has no windows, no desktop, no menu bar, no Dock or trashcan. No keyboard, no screen, no system unit, no removable media, no hard disk or floppy drive. It is a *device*, not a "computer". (Even though it runs Unix.) It sits in cradled in your lap or held in your hands as you operate it with your thumbs. The screen /is/ the computer. It weighs under a kilo and the battery lasts a day of use. And despite it being nothing like anything anyone is used to, it sold about three million devices in its first month or so. -- Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From lproven at gmail.com Sun Oct 3 11:30:13 2010 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2010 17:30:13 +0100 Subject: Voice recognition will never kill the keyboard was: Re:Evolution of the Apple Mouse In-Reply-To: <012a01cb6235$93e5c9d0$82165d0a@user8459cef6fa> References: <4CA41FCD.6050004@neurotica.com> <4CA49503.9000108@gmail.com> <012a01cb6235$93e5c9d0$82165d0a@user8459cef6fa> Message-ID: On 2 October 2010 13:51, Andrew Burton wrote: > > One thing I believe you missed mentioning is accents. Some of the voice > recognition games on the Nintendo DS have this problem, where it can > understand most UK accents but some can trip it up. (Personally, I know I > can't understand a word anyone says in a broad Yorkshire accent... I found > this out when I met my ex's grandfather years ago. Very embarrassing > indeed). > Then you have people that speak at different speeds. Some people talk slowly > (Captain Kirk usually... only spoke three... words at a... time!), whilst > some speak very fast and everyone else sits somewhere in the middle. > > Personally, I don't see voice recognition going anywhere major. Just like 3D > TV, it's cool, but it's still just a passing phase. Not until we develop some form of telepathy, no. Speech is the major form of information exchange between humans, and until the time we go to the machines, the machines will be coming to us. They will be improved until they can understand us, or they'll be replaced with something that can. By the same token, most humans have 2 eyes and can see in 3D, therefore, displays will be improved until they can fully exploit the human visual system. 3D isn't that hard. I played /Mafia II/ and /Starcraft II/ in 3D at Eurogamer Expo yesterday. It works well and is really quite impressive. It really did add to the gameplay experience. -- Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From cclist at sydex.com Sun Oct 3 12:07:15 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 03 Oct 2010 10:07:15 -0700 Subject: Latest eBay seller BS In-Reply-To: <810E85E7A5FB4F4FB5C1BCA28B66FCEF@dell8300> References: , <810E85E7A5FB4F4FB5C1BCA28B66FCEF@dell8300> Message-ID: <4CA855D3.11625.11D3A8@cclist.sydex.com> On 3 Oct 2010 at 2:43, Teo Zenios wrote: > Seems like some of those sellers get free shipping somehow. I won > items that winning amount could not have covered shipping. Airmail to the USA (I don't know about other countries) from Hongkong is exceptionally cheap, thanks to some ham-handed negotiations on the part of the US authorities. Since IPU (it's been renamed recently; I don't recall the new name) agreements are essentially treaties, they tend to change very slowly. For a historical tack, cf. Charles Ponzi. --Chuck From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Sun Oct 3 12:52:09 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun, 03 Oct 2010 18:52:09 +0100 Subject: Another 935 shot... In-Reply-To: <4CA611B5.13699.1B40A86@cclist.sydex.com> References: , , <4CA67127.6050805@jetnet.ab.ca> <4CA611B5.13699.1B40A86@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4CA8C2C9.6030206@philpem.me.uk> On 02/10/10 00:52, Chuck Guzis wrote: > So, when you get a piece of equipment with a great big nest in it and > PC boards buried in mouse feces, what's the best way to clean the > board? I'd give up and find another. But if I REALLY had to clean something like that up, I'd probably start with sodium hypochlorite bleach. Failing that I'd grab a couple of packs of sodium hydroxide photoresist developer and try soaking the board in that. If all else fails? File it under B-1N. -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From ajp166 at verizon.net Sun Oct 3 14:13:56 2010 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Sun, 03 Oct 2010 15:13:56 -0400 Subject: anyone coming up through MD towards (or to, or beyond) MA sometime this year ? In-Reply-To: <4CA7D02C.1030909@hawkmountain.net> References: <4CA7D02C.1030909@hawkmountain.net> Message-ID: <4CA8D5F4.7050705@verizon.net> On 10/02/2010 08:37 PM, Curtis H. Wilbar Jr. wrote: > > Have a BA23 pedestal enclosure I'd like to get from Rockville MD > area.... and > the local UPS store down there wan'ts $60ish for packing > materials/packing charge > (the $30+ to ship). > > So, thought I'd see if anyone was making a run through that area up > this way per > chance. Probably not, but thought I'd check anyway. > > Let me know if you are. > > Thanks, > > -- Curt > > An if someone gets into the boton area I have a BA23 and a BA123 with microvax boards. Almost complete and with drive sheds and TK50s. Allison From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Oct 3 13:03:11 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2010 19:03:11 +0100 (BST) Subject: Evolution of the Apple Mouse In-Reply-To: <4CA75AF8.5050802@tx.rr.com> from "Charlie Carothers" at Oct 2, 10 11:16:56 am Message-ID: > I do worry sometimes about all the appliances we have with IMHO Not a microwave oven, but for washing machines : Old washing machine ran for 40 years. In that time it needed one repair to its electromechancal timer, something which involved me cutting about 1" of brass strip and screwing it in place. Of course in those 40 years it's needed new hosesm seals, etc, but I am only considering the timer... New washing machine : After about 4 years, the motor control module failed. And it was the custom microcontroller chip. I have the wiring diagram, but not of course schematics of the module, but I could prove the relays, triac, etc were fine. And they won't sell just the chip :-(. Result : Over \punds 100 for the motor controller. Now which do you think I prefer? > unnecessary electronics since we don't have a whole house surge > supressor. e.g. Clothes washer and dryer, range, refrigerator. The Our new ovens do have electronic timers, but the thermostat is still the good old bulb + bellows type. And it's fairly obvious how to bypass the timer if it fails so you can still cook manually (which is all we ever so anyway). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Oct 3 13:05:09 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2010 19:05:09 +0100 (BST) Subject: Cats, again... In-Reply-To: from "Jonas Otter" at Oct 2, 10 06:06:27 pm Message-ID: > > What is it with classic computer people and cats :-) > Have you played the card game called "Chez Geek"? If you have, and you Err, no. I've got quite enough things to occupy my time, anyway, who would I play it with... > didn't know it before, you would have learned that cats are an > essential companion to any geek who is really serious about his or her > geekhood. I see.I will admit they do make wonderful companions, even if you do nearly tirp over them when carrying CRTs, etc :-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Oct 3 13:12:11 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2010 19:12:11 +0100 (BST) Subject: Another 935 shot... In-Reply-To: <177401cb62bb$0bc30e10$0600000a@portajara> from "Alexandre Souza - Listas" at Oct 3, 10 02:21:47 am Message-ID: > > > Cats like classic computers, and our Feline Overlords "encourage" us to > > get > > them the hardware they desire. > > BTW, any tips to xoo out my cat out of here? I can't work, Mimi wants to > sit on keyboard all day long!!! :oP Buy a second keyboard and a 2-way switch. Use whichever keyboard that cat is not sleeping on (and be warned, it will not be consistent, hence the 2-way switch so you can select either keyboard). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Oct 3 13:14:38 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2010 19:14:38 +0100 (BST) Subject: TI calculator battery packs cont'd In-Reply-To: from "Charles" at Oct 2, 10 10:13:20 pm Message-ID: > > I just found another great site in Germany: > http://www.stschmid.de/calculators/ > in which he redesigned the dc-dc converter board inside the BP-8 > with surface-mount components, and even sells them... for $25 plus > $12 postage :( To be fari, I don't think that's very expensive for what must be a small-volume product. I've done a fair numner of 1-off designs, and gave up trying to sell them when I realised what a fair price would be... > > Guess I'll be using 9V batteries, or perhaps tuck a rechargeable > one (which is really only 8.4 volts) inside the plastic case with > a suitable diode and resistor for charging from the wall-wart. Or you could redesign the DC-DC converter. It can't be that complicated. Perhaps one of thestep-up swithcing regulator ICs (Maxim?) would be a starting point/ -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Oct 3 13:28:38 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2010 19:28:38 +0100 (BST) Subject: Evolution of the Apple Mouse In-Reply-To: from "Liam Proven" at Oct 3, 10 03:54:18 pm Message-ID: > > Oh, I have many machines with mice. I don;'t think I have anything that > > uses a normal PC style PS/2 or USB or RS232 mouse, though. Mybe I do, I > > think the Whitechapel Hitech takes an RS232 mouse, but I've not sorted > > that one out yet. Actually, I bouight a PS/2 mouse a few days ago. It's now a very dead PS/2 mouse. I will explain the reasons in another message... > *Thinks* Wouldn't an upgraded Archimedes, or some other recent RISC OS > machine such as an Iyonix, be a better tool for accessing the Internet > than a PC-AT with a 486? Maybe. I nver really got into RISC OS. The few times I've used it, I didn't really care for it. And I really like having the source code for everything I depend on (which is the case with this PC, I have the BIOS source in the TechRef and of course linux comes with source). I have had to fix things in the past... > Helpful with text editing, occasionally. I used MS-Word 4.0 for DOS on > a few PCs with mice but no GUI. > > Not really worth the effort, though, to be fair. I don;t think vi will make use of a mouse... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Oct 3 13:36:38 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2010 19:36:38 +0100 (BST) Subject: Evolution of the Apple Mouse In-Reply-To: from "Liam Proven" at Oct 3, 10 03:57:53 pm Message-ID: > >> Overall, I'd agree. For mass-market consumer kit, I think it might be > >> good. Cheaper, faster computers are a good thing. Also, for the random > > > > Playinghte devil's advocate for a moment, Cheaper -> less likely to be > > econmical to repair, and thus more waste sent to landfill, fewer jobs for > > repairers. > > You're right, however, it's a /fait accompli/. I have fetched It may well be a fait acompli, but that doens't make it a Good Thing necessarily... > entirely-working reasonable-spec PCs out of skips before now. Thrown > because they were too slow & the owners too lazy and stupid to find a > way to give them to charity or recycle them. I wonder why I never fidn useful bits like this... > > >> punter, *simpler* computers are a good thing. > > > > Not _ncessarily_ a good thing. > > > > Again, if oyu're not careful, you end up with a machine that makes simple > > tasks trivial, but which can't be used for difficult tasks (or at least > > makes htem a lot harder than they should be). Somehting that really > > annoys me is the lack of a propper command language in many modern > > window-based OSes. Computeras are good at doing the same thing over and > > over agian, I should be able to tell them to do that. > > Concur, personally and for myself, but programming is a lost cause now. > > User computers are trending towards being very simple Web access > devices with limited customisability and extensibility and that is > what most people want. The same way they want a simple, reliable car > that needs little maintenance and don't give a hoot if they can't > perform that maintenance themselves. In other words, most people do not really want a computer. They want something to borwse the web, store their digital photos on, download from iTunes to their iPod (or whatever you do these days), and so on. Problem is, I do want a computer. A machine that I can program to do things for me I don't want to sit and do the same job times by hand. That's what perl is for ;-). The problems I have generally require programming. Which is why, I guess, PC shops ahve absolutely no iterest for me... > That is a good point, but there are heatpipes and other ways of moving > heat over relatively short distances, no? Not good enough? I am > genuinely curious here... I susepct the problms are then mechancial. Getting the heatpipes where you want them with the CPU, grpahics processor, RAM, etc where they have to be, A fan amy well be tge simplest and best solution. Problem is, the fans you find in consumer PCs are horrible. I've had enoguh of them cross my bench. I also remember real fans that are sill running and still quiet afet over 25 years. Of cource those have decent bearings and probably cost ratehr more when they were new. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Oct 3 14:21:35 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2010 20:21:35 +0100 (BST) Subject: IS501 sensor -- my solution Message-ID: Some days ago I was asking about a source for an IS50 OPIC optical sensor used in the shaft encoder of my Olivetti Sparkjet printer. And it appears this device is unobtainium In an earlier message tonigth I mentioned I had recently bought a cheap PS/2 mouse, and that it is now very dead. These 2 events are connected... The reason I boguth a cheap mouse is that it was optomechancial, rather than optical. And the reason it was PS/2 is that that was the cheapest one I could find. The salesdroid in Maplin thought I was craxy when I daid I didn't care what the interface was. On the other hamd, trying to ecplain classic computing to him was going to take too long, so I simply said that PS/2 was what I wanted... And of coruse the reason I wanted an optomechancial mouse is that it contains a pair of dual phototranssitor sensors to sense the motion of the encoder wheels. Of ocurse I took the mouse apart. It was very cheaply made, with the slotted disks and spindles moulded in one piece, then clipped into 'bearings' moudlded in the base of the mouse. Ouch. But I didn't care about that. I soon desoldered the sensorts which appear to be dual phototransistors with a common collector connection. And the pitch of the slots in the mouse's encoder disks was very close to that in the disk in my Sparkjet printer. Next job was to carefully remove and dismantle the encoder in the Sparkjet. I desoldered the OPIC, which shed a couple of pins in the process, but I cared more about the PCB. I also removed the dual resistor assockated with the OPIC> I then fitted one of the mouse sensors in place of it, common collector to the +5V tack. And with a little cut and muper, I routed the 2 emitter connections to pads that had held the dual resistor. I carefully ressembled the sensor and fitted 10k resisotrs in placeof the dual resistor assembly. That would do as an emitter load for testing. Turning the spindle produced a change in voltage, but it was close to +5V all the time. Dropping the resistors would help, in the end I foudn that 470 ohms (yes, that low) was ideal. I added a 74LS14 schmitt trigger IC on a bit of stripboard to clean up the signals, conneted the outputs to the pins on the connector to the printer's main board and gave it a try. Using the logicDart I could get a display of the wavefortms, and by adjusting the encoder PCB position I got a pretty good pair of quadrature signals. Doing the self-test on the printer got the carriage jiggling about is it should do (the printer was dismantled so that there was no platten, HV generartor, carriage rails, stc, so I couldn't see if it was preinting anything, but I coudlsee the montion of the carriage drive). Alas evey so often it would miscount and the carriage would jump in position. Much gabbing of signals with the LogicDart later, I spotted the odd glitch in one of the output waveforms. No idea what was causing it, but a 1nF camacitor in parallel with the 470R resistor on each phototransitor cleared it up. And cleaered up the posiiton problem Now 'all' I have to do is align the carriage rails properly. Iv'e refitted the rest of the printer mechansim, and it does print, but it fades out after few lines, to recover only wne I clean the end of the ink cartridge. I suspect the spark is flying in slightly the wrong direction and putting carbon ('ink') on the end of the cartridge, causing HV leakage. So, the replacement for the IS501 consisted of the sensor from a cheap mouse and a 74LS14, a couple of R's and a couple of C's from my junk box... -tony From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun Oct 3 15:03:36 2010 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2010 21:03:36 +0100 Subject: Repairing Debian on an Alpha 433au Message-ID: <00af01cb6336$1212d900$36388b00$@ntlworld.com> The 433au I have came with an instance of Debian which has DECnet installed on it, I am not sure what version of Debian it is. After a power outage the superblock on DKA200 was corrupted. I managed to install another instance of Debian (3.1r0) on DK0 and run e2fsck -p on the DKA200 disk to fix it. However when I try to boot the original Debian instance it says it can't find /dev/sdb3. In the new instance of Debian I can mount the sdb3 disk without issue. Below is the output on the console when it fails to boot. There is a message about the driver sd needing to be updated, but this was a working system so I am not convinced that is the problem. Can anyone offer any insight as to why this will still not boot? Thanks Rob aboot: loading uncompressed vmlinuz-2.6.26-1-alpha-generic... aboot: loading compressed vmlinuz-2.6.26-1-alpha-generic... aboot: zero-filling 854608 bytes at 0xfffffc000167c980 aboot: loading initrd (1421885 bytes/1388 blocks) at 0xfffffc0013d70000 aboot: starting kernel vmlinuz-2.6.26-1-alpha-generic with arguments ro root=/d ev/sdb3 console=ttyS0,9600n1 [ 0.000000] Initializing cgroup subsys cpu [ 0.000000] Linux version 2.6.26-1-alpha-generic (Debian 2.6.26-13) (waldi at de bian.org) (gcc version 4.1.3 20080704 (prerelease) (Debian 4.1.2-24)) #1 Sat Jan 10 17:21:47 UTC 2009 [ 0.000000] Booting GENERIC on Miata using machine vector Miata from SRM [ 0.000000] Major Options: MAGIC_SYSRQ [ 0.000000] Command line: ro root=/dev/sdb3 console=ttyS0,9600n1 [ 0.000000] memcluster 0, usage 1, start 0, end 236 [ 0.000000] memcluster 1, usage 0, start 236, end 40959 [ 0.000000] memcluster 2, usage 1, start 40959, end 40960 [ 0.000000] freeing pages 236:2048 [ 0.000000] freeing pages 2985:40959 [ 0.000000] reserving pages 2985:2986 [ 0.000000] Initial ramdisk at: 0xfffffc0013d70000 (1421885 bytes) [ 0.000000] pci: cia revision 1 (pyxis) [ 0.000000] Built 1 zonelists in Zone order, mobility grouping on. Total pag es: 40679 [ 0.000000] Kernel command line: ro root=/dev/sdb3 console=ttyS0,9600n1 [ 0.000000] PID hash table entries: 2048 (order: 11, 16384 bytes) [ 0.000000] HWRPB cycle frequency bogus. Estimated 433127999 Hz [ 0.000000] Using epoch = 2000 [4194001.855599] Console: colour VGA+ 80x25 [4194001.855599] console [ttyS0] enabled [4194003.204231] Dentry cache hash table entries: 65536 (order: 6, 524288 bytes) [4194003.294075] Inode-cache hash table entries: 32768 (order: 5, 262144 bytes) [4194003.414192] Memory: 313552k/327672k available (2158k kernel code, 11952k re served, 3313k data, 304k init) [4194003.551887] Security Framework initialized [4194003.603645] Capability LSM initialized [4194003.650520] Mount-cache hash table entries: 512 [4194003.707161] Initializing cgroup subsys ns [4194003.757942] Initializing cgroup subsys cpuacct [4194003.813606] Initializing cgroup subsys devices [4194003.877082] net_namespace: 1208 bytes [4194003.924934] NET: Registered protocol family 16 [4194003.983528] EISA bus registered [4194004.024543] pci: passed tb register update test [4194004.081184] pci: passed sg loopback i/o read test [4194004.139778] pci: passed pte write cache snoop test [4194004.199348] pci: failed valid tag invalid pte reload test (mcheck; workarou nd available) [4194004.298957] pci: passed pci machine check test [4194004.353645] pci: tbia workaround enabled [4194004.403449] pci: enabling save/restore of SRM state [4194004.468879] PCI: Bridge: 0000:00:14.0 [4194004.515754] IO window: 8000-8fff [4194004.557746] MEM window: 0x09000000-0x090fffff [4194004.614387] PREFETCH window: 0x0000000009100000-0x00000000091fffff [4194004.701301] Linux Plug and Play Support v0.97 (c) Adam Belay [4194004.785285] NET: Registered protocol family 2 [4194004.850715] IP route cache hash table entries: 4096 (order: 2, 32768 bytes) [4194004.937629] TCP established hash table entries: 16384 (order: 5, 262144 byt es) [4194005.027473] TCP bind hash table entries: 16384 (order: 4, 131072 bytes) [4194005.109504] TCP: Hash tables configured (established 16384 bind 16384) [4194005.190558] TCP reno registered [4194005.233527] NET: Registered protocol family 1 [4194005.289191] checking if image is initramfs... it is [4194006.371222] Freeing initrd memory: 1388k freed [4194006.430792] VFS: Disk quotas dquot_6.5.1 [4194006.479620] Dquot-cache hash table entries: 1024 (order 0, 8192 bytes) [4194006.560675] msgmni has been set to 615 [4194006.608526] Block layer SCSI generic (bsg) driver version 0.4 loaded (major 253) [4194006.699347] io scheduler noop registered [4194006.748175] io scheduler anticipatory registered [4194006.805792] io scheduler deadline registered [4194006.859503] io scheduler cfq registered (default) [4194006.918097] isapnp: Scanning for PnP cards... [4194007.324346] isapnp: No Plug & Play device found [4194007.417120] Serial: 8250/16550 driver $Revision: 1.90 $ 4 ports, IRQ sharin g enabled [4194007.512823] serial8250: ttyS0 at I/O 0x3f8 (irq = 4) is a 16550A [4194007.588018] serial8250: ttyS1 at I/O 0x2f8 (irq = 3) is a 16550A [4194007.684698] brd: module loaded [4194007.731573] serio: i8042 KBD port at 0x60,0x64 irq 1 [4194007.793096] serio: i8042 AUX port at 0x60,0x64 irq 12 [4194007.858526] mice: PS/2 mouse device common for all mice [4194007.924932] EISA: Probing bus 0 at eisa.0 [4194007.974737] atkbd.c: keyboard reset failed on isa0060/serio0 [4194008.047979] TCP cubic registered [4194008.088994] NET: Registered protocol family 17 [4194008.145635] registered taskstats version 1 [4194008.197393] drivers/rtc/hctosys.c: unable to open rtc device (rtc0) [4194008.275518] Freeing unused kernel memory: 304k freed [4194008.352666] atkbd.c: keyboard reset failed on isa0060/serio1 [4194008.698369] SCSI subsystem initialized [4194008.765752] qla1280: QLA1040 found on PCI bus 1, dev 9 [4194009.400517] scsi(0:0): Resetting SCSI BUS [4194012.454227] scsi0 : QLogic QLA1040 PCI to SCSI Host Adapter [4194012.454227] Firmware version: 7.65.06, Driver version 3.26 [4194012.625125] Driver 'sd' needs updating - please use bus_type methods [4194012.704226] scsi 0:0:0:0: Direct-Access COMPAQ ST32550W 6415 PQ: 0 ANSI: 2 /bin/cat: [4194012.818484] scsi(0:0:0:0): Sync: period 10, offset 12, Wide, Tagg ed queuing: depth 31 /sys/block/sdb/dev: No such file or directory Waiting 1 seconds for /sys/block/sdb/dev to show up /bin/cat: /sys/block/sdb/dev: No such file or directory Waiting 2 seconds for /sys/block/sdb/dev to show up /bin/cat: /sys/block/sdb/dev: No such file or directory Waiting 4 seconds for /sys/block/sdb/dev to show up [4194018.073364] sd 0:0:0:0: [sda] 4110000 512-byte hardware sectors (2104 MB) [4194018.160278] sd 0:0:0:0: [sda] Write Protect is off [4194018.223755] sd 0:0:0:0: [sda] Write cache: disabled, read cache: enabled, s upports DPO and FUA [4194018.332153] sd 0:0:0:0: [sda] 4110000 512-byte hardware sectors (2104 MB) [4194018.419067] sd 0:0:0:0: [sda] Write Protect is off [4194018.482544] sd 0:0:0:0: [sda] Write cache: disabled, read cache: enabled, s upports DPO and FUA [4194018.588012] sda: sda1 sda2 sda3 sda4 [4194018.657348] sd 0:0:0:0: [sda] Attached SCSI disk /bin/cat: /sys/block/sdb/dev: No such file or directory Waiting 8 seconds for /sys/block/sdb/dev to show up /bin/cat: /sys/block/sdb/dev: No such file or directory Waiting 16 seconds for /sys/block/sdb/dev to show up /bin/cat: /sys/block/sdb/dev: No such file or directory Device /sys/block/sdb/dev seems to be down. /bin/mknod: missing operand after `b' Special files require major and minor device numbers. Try `/bin/mknod --help' for more information. /bin/cat: /sys/block/sdb/sdb3/dev: No such file or directory Waiting 1 seconds for /sys/block/sdb/sdb3/dev to show up /bin/cat: /sys/block/sdb/sdb3/dev: No such file or directory Waiting 2 seconds for /sys/block/sdb/sdb3/dev to show up /bin/cat: /sys/block/sdb/sdb3/dev: No such file or directory Waiting 4 seconds for /sys/block/sdb/sdb3/dev to show up /bin/cat: /sys/block/sdb/sdb3/dev: No such file or directory Waiting 8 seconds for /sys/block/sdb/sdb3/dev to show up /bin/cat: /sys/block/sdb/sdb3/dev: No such file or directory Waiting 16 seconds for /sys/block/sdb/sdb3/dev to show up /bin/cat: /sys/block/sdb/sdb3/dev: No such file or directory Device /sys/block/sdb/sdb3/dev seems to be down. /bin/mknod[4194075.827241] Kernel panic - not syncing: Attempted to kill init! : missing operand after `b' Special files require major and minor device numbers. Try `/bin/mknod --help' for more information. mount: special device /dev/sdb3 does not exist Switching root ... /usr/lib/yaird/exec/run_init: current directory on the same filesystem as the ro ot: Success From huw.davies at mail.vsm.com.au Sun Oct 3 08:49:45 2010 From: huw.davies at mail.vsm.com.au (Huw Davies) Date: Mon, 04 Oct 2010 00:49:45 +1100 Subject: Spec of Memory for a DEC Alpha 433au In-Reply-To: <009501cb62d7$a23d05f0$e6b711d0$@ntlworld.com> References: <009501cb62d7$a23d05f0$e6b711d0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: Rob, > I am trying to work out what kind of memory to look for to fit in my 433au. > I can see it need 168-pin ECC SDRAM, but I am not clear if it can be > unbuffered or if it must be registered and whether I need PC100 or PC133. I > can also see that the notches on the side to hold the DIMMs in place seem to > be higher up than on most of the DIMMs I can find, not sure if there is a > particular technical term I should include in my searches for this. Going from very rusty memory, I recall 433au used PC133 memory. I recall moving memory from a PC into one years ago and being more than happy that it worked. Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies at kerberos.davies.net.au Melbourne | "If soccer was meant to be played in the Australia | air, the sky would be painted green" From pat at computer-refuge.org Sun Oct 3 15:10:02 2010 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2010 16:10:02 -0400 Subject: Evolution of the Apple Mouse In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201010031610.03096.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Sunday, October 03, 2010, Tony Duell wrote: > > Helpful with text editing, occasionally. I used MS-Word 4.0 for DOS > > on a few PCs with mice but no GUI. > > > > Not really worth the effort, though, to be fair. > > I don;t think vi will make use of a mouse... Look at "GPM." It's been available for Linux "forever" (at least since the days of 2.0.x kernel-based distributions), and lets you use a mouse to copy/paste on a Linux text console. I haven't tried, but suspect it would work with an MDA just fine, because it uses the Linux console abstraction layer.. http://freshmeat.net/projects/gpm/ You should be able to use it with an PC "serial mouse" or "bus mouse" on your hacked-up PC/AT. (I'm sure you at least have some serial ports on the box even if you don't have a free ISA slot to shove a bus mouse card into. :) Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From cclist at sydex.com Sun Oct 3 15:11:06 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 03 Oct 2010 13:11:06 -0700 Subject: Another 935 shot... In-Reply-To: <4CA8C2C9.6030206@philpem.me.uk> References: , <4CA611B5.13699.1B40A86@cclist.sydex.com>, <4CA8C2C9.6030206@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4CA880EA.7638.BA2409@cclist.sydex.com> On 3 Oct 2010 at 18:52, Philip Pemberton wrote: > Failing that I'd grab a couple of packs of sodium hydroxide > photoresist developer and try soaking the board in that. i.e. Lye = aerosol oven cleaner. Much easier to use than the "Red Devil" pelletized product available in US grocery stores. Just keep it away from aluminum, zinc and magnesium. I've also used the stuff to remove greasy smoke damage. You guys haven't lived until you've used your torch to disassemble a tuba with a dead rat stuck inside. The fragrance is "unique"... --Chuck From pat at computer-refuge.org Sun Oct 3 15:15:58 2010 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2010 16:15:58 -0400 Subject: Repairing Debian on an Alpha 433au In-Reply-To: <00af01cb6336$1212d900$36388b00$@ntlworld.com> References: <00af01cb6336$1212d900$36388b00$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <201010031615.58957.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Sunday, October 03, 2010, Rob Jarratt wrote: > The 433au I have came with an instance of Debian which has DECnet > installed on it, I am not sure what version of Debian it is. After a > power outage the superblock on DKA200 was corrupted. I managed to > install another instance of Debian (3.1r0) on DK0 and run e2fsck -p > on the DKA200 disk to fix it. However when I try to boot the > original Debian instance it says it can't find /dev/sdb3. In the new > instance of Debian I can mount the sdb3 disk without issue. Below is > the output on the console when it fails to boot. There is a message > about the driver sd needing to be updated, but this was a working > system so I am not convinced that is the problem. Can anyone offer > any insight as to why this will still not boot? The kernel is only seeing one disk. By any chance, are you pulling the first disk (DKA0?) when you try booting from the 2nd disk (DKA200)? Maybe try telling aboot root=/dev/sda3 for your root device instead. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun Oct 3 16:24:55 2010 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2010 22:24:55 +0100 Subject: Repairing Debian on an Alpha 433au In-Reply-To: <201010031615.58957.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <00af01cb6336$1212d900$36388b00$@ntlworld.com> <201010031615.58957.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <00b001cb6341$6e6ca8b0$4b45fa10$@ntlworld.com> I have actually tried both ways, with and without DK0 plugged in. That particular boot I sent the log for had both disks plugged in Mind you the spare disk that is in there now is DK0. That replaced a disk at DKA100 which had VMS on it, which I had to take out temporarily to make way for the temporary disk to put the second instance of Debian on. So when the machine was working I had VMS on DKA100 and Debian on DKA200. Now I have the temporary Debian on DK0 and the "proper" Debian on DKA200. I will try your suggestion when I next get the chance to test, which won't be for a few days now. I may also try putting the VMS disk back in so I have DKA100 and DKA200 again, not sure if this will make a difference. Regards Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Patrick Finnegan > Sent: 03 October 2010 21:16 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Repairing Debian on an Alpha 433au > > On Sunday, October 03, 2010, Rob Jarratt wrote: > > The 433au I have came with an instance of Debian which has DECnet > > installed on it, I am not sure what version of Debian it is. After a > > power outage the superblock on DKA200 was corrupted. I managed to > > install another instance of Debian (3.1r0) on DK0 and run e2fsck -p on > > the DKA200 disk to fix it. However when I try to boot the original > > Debian instance it says it can't find /dev/sdb3. In the new instance > > of Debian I can mount the sdb3 disk without issue. Below is the output > > on the console when it fails to boot. There is a message about the > > driver sd needing to be updated, but this was a working system so I am > > not convinced that is the problem. Can anyone offer any insight as to > > why this will still not boot? > > The kernel is only seeing one disk. By any chance, are you pulling the first disk > (DKA0?) when you try booting from the 2nd disk (DKA200)? > > Maybe try telling aboot root=/dev/sda3 for your root device instead. > > Pat > -- > Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ > The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Sun Oct 3 16:59:56 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2010 18:59:56 -0300 Subject: Another 935 shot... References: , <4CA611B5.13699.1B40A86@cclist.sydex.com>, <4CA8C2C9.6030206@philpem.me.uk> <4CA880EA.7638.BA2409@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <1aaf01cb6348$36e0ac00$0600000a@portajara> > You guys haven't lived until you've used your torch to disassemble a > tuba with a dead rat stuck inside. The fragrance is "unique"... UGH! :oO From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Oct 3 19:37:13 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 03 Oct 2010 20:37:13 -0400 Subject: Another 935 shot... In-Reply-To: <4CA880EA.7638.BA2409@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4CA611B5.13699.1B40A86@cclist.sydex.com>, <4CA8C2C9.6030206@philpem.me.uk> <4CA880EA.7638.BA2409@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4CA921B9.1080505@neurotica.com> On 10/3/10 4:11 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > You guys haven't lived until you've used your torch to disassemble a > tuba with a dead rat stuck inside. The fragrance is "unique"... That's...disturbing. I'm having a hard time coming up with a more unusual set of circumstances, or course of action to deal with said circumstances. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ploopster at gmail.com Sun Oct 3 21:21:56 2010 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sun, 03 Oct 2010 22:21:56 -0400 Subject: Spec of Memory for a DEC Alpha 433au In-Reply-To: References: <009501cb62d7$a23d05f0$e6b711d0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <4CA93A44.5090007@gmail.com> Huw Davies wrote: > Rob, > >> I am trying to work out what kind of memory to look for to fit in my 433au. >> I can see it need 168-pin ECC SDRAM, but I am not clear if it can be >> unbuffered or if it must be registered and whether I need PC100 or PC133. I >> can also see that the notches on the side to hold the DIMMs in place seem to >> be higher up than on most of the DIMMs I can find, not sure if there is a >> particular technical term I should include in my searches for this. > > Going from very rusty memory, I recall 433au used PC133 memory. I recall moving memory from a PC into one years ago and being more than happy that it worked. I thought it was PC66. Peace... Sridhar From IanK at vulcan.com Sun Oct 3 22:25:12 2010 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2010 20:25:12 -0700 Subject: iPad? Really? (was RE: Voice recognition will never kill the keyboard was: Re: Evolution) Message-ID: Please, I just ate.... The iPad is another Apple marketing success, but it isn't "defining" in any sense. Just because the bleating masses bought a bunch of them doesn't mean it's a meaningful step in any direction except profit. It just means that the marketeers at Apple are without peer. That's not a compliment. Keep in mind that I'm typing this on a PowerBook - I'm not anti-Mac. I own and really enjoy a 7" Android tablet device - I'm not anti-tablet. (I also own a Fujitsu Stylistic Tablet PC that I bought a long time ago, and if you want to sit down over a couple of beers I'd be happy to talk about its strengths and weaknesses and why the "Tablet PC" was ultimately doomed.) I'm not anti-"device", as I've been saying for some time that the "Personal Computer" has had its day and will be supplanted by "devices" that are not recognizable as computers - and it's happening, with the proliferation of mobile devices as the primary mechanism for consumption of information technology for millions of people around the world. (Why does Microsoft do so poorly in this market? Because it's in their DNA to tie it to the Personal Computer.) But the iPad? Yuppie status symbol. Yet another expression of Steve Jobs' control freak personality. Dead end. IMHO -- Ian ________________________________________ From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Liam Proven [lproven at gmail.com] Sent: Sunday, October 03, 2010 9:15 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only Subject: Re: Voice recognition will never kill the keyboard was: Re: Evolution On 2 October 2010 19:59, Tony Duell wrote: >> For the existing apps that are mouse-centric, I see touchscreens >> replacing them, but for things that are text-centric I don't see that >> as a good transition. > > TOuchscreens have been tried in the past (the most obviosu example is the > HP150 'Touchscreen PC') and I think they were always found to be less > convenient to use than a mouse or trackball. You have to move your hand > further (keyboard to screen rather than keyboard to mouse on desk near > keybaord), and you arm/hand is not supported (e.g. by resting it on the > desk) when you are doing the pointing. Well, yes, in 1983 they quite definitely weren't viable yet. :?) The iPad is the defining device of this technology, at least so far. It isn't a desktop computer and doesn't try to be. It's not a Mac, it's not Mac-compatible. It has no windows, no desktop, no menu bar, no Dock or trashcan. No keyboard, no screen, no system unit, no removable media, no hard disk or floppy drive. It is a *device*, not a "computer". (Even though it runs Unix.) It sits in cradled in your lap or held in your hands as you operate it with your thumbs. The screen /is/ the computer. It weighs under a kilo and the battery lasts a day of use. And despite it being nothing like anything anyone is used to, it sold about three million devices in its first month or so. -- Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Oct 3 22:52:47 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2010 23:52:47 -0400 Subject: iPad? Really? (was RE: Voice recognition will never kill the keyboard was: Re: Evolution) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > But the iPad? ?Yuppie status symbol. ?Yet another expression of Steve Jobs' control freak personality. ?Dead end. Can we quote you on this in a few years? The concept of the tablet computer is pretty ancient, and their have been quite a few not-so-great attempts over the past 20 years, but it seems like the iPad is the first one that is actually working well and useful. -- Will From curt at atarimuseum.com Sun Oct 3 23:16:10 2010 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Mon, 04 Oct 2010 00:16:10 -0400 Subject: iPad? Really? (was RE: Voice recognition will never kill the keyboard was: Re: Evolution) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CA9550A.6010908@atarimuseum.com> I have an iPad. I like the 3G built in and to be able to tap the internet and internet-connected apps from it. However, the formfactor is a little too large and it gets to be annoying to hold at times, I would actually like something perhaps 1/2 to 3/4 its size. The onscreen keyboard is okay, but is BEGGING for arrow keys as the tap and click method is a potluck shot each and every time. It has no flash support which is a MAJOR disappointment beyond belief. Lack of standard ports like a USB port and the ability to load/unload data to/from it to some form of storage accessible space is a glaring issue. Its a nice piece of technology, but I rate it a "B" overall because while thin and innovative, it is too proprietary and too closed. I am looking very closely at the upcoming Playbook by Research in Motion myself and it is turns out to be a good solid device, the iPad will be headed to Ebay. Curt Ian King wrote: > Please, I just ate.... The iPad is another Apple marketing success, but it isn't "defining" in any sense. Just because the bleating masses bought a bunch of them doesn't mean it's a meaningful step in any direction except profit. It just means that the marketeers at Apple are without peer. That's not a compliment. > > Keep in mind that I'm typing this on a PowerBook - I'm not anti-Mac. I own and really enjoy a 7" Android tablet device - I'm not anti-tablet. (I also own a Fujitsu Stylistic Tablet PC that I bought a long time ago, and if you want to sit down over a couple of beers I'd be happy to talk about its strengths and weaknesses and why the "Tablet PC" was ultimately doomed.) I'm not anti-"device", as I've been saying for some time that the "Personal Computer" has had its day and will be supplanted by "devices" that are not recognizable as computers - and it's happening, with the proliferation of mobile devices as the primary mechanism for consumption of information technology for millions of people around the world. (Why does Microsoft do so poorly in this market? Because it's in their DNA to tie it to the Personal Computer.) > > But the iPad? Yuppie status symbol. Yet another expression of Steve Jobs' control freak personality. Dead end. IMHO -- Ian > ________________________________________ > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Liam Proven [lproven at gmail.com] > Sent: Sunday, October 03, 2010 9:15 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only > Subject: Re: Voice recognition will never kill the keyboard was: Re: Evolution > > On 2 October 2010 19:59, Tony Duell wrote: > >>> For the existing apps that are mouse-centric, I see touchscreens >>> replacing them, but for things that are text-centric I don't see that >>> as a good transition. >>> >> TOuchscreens have been tried in the past (the most obviosu example is the >> HP150 'Touchscreen PC') and I think they were always found to be less >> convenient to use than a mouse or trackball. You have to move your hand >> further (keyboard to screen rather than keyboard to mouse on desk near >> keybaord), and you arm/hand is not supported (e.g. by resting it on the >> desk) when you are doing the pointing. >> > > Well, yes, in 1983 they quite definitely weren't viable yet. :?) > > The iPad is the defining device of this technology, at least so far. > It isn't a desktop computer and doesn't try to be. It's not a Mac, > it's not Mac-compatible. It has no windows, no desktop, no menu bar, > no Dock or trashcan. No keyboard, no screen, no system unit, no > removable media, no hard disk or floppy drive. > > It is a *device*, not a "computer". (Even though it runs Unix.) It > sits in cradled in your lap or held in your hands as you operate it > with your thumbs. The screen /is/ the computer. It weighs under a kilo > and the battery lasts a day of use. > > And despite it being nothing like anything anyone is used to, it sold > about three million devices in its first month or so. > > > -- > Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven > Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com > Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 > AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 > > > From uban at ubanproductions.com Sun Oct 3 23:30:52 2010 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Sun, 03 Oct 2010 23:30:52 -0500 Subject: iPad? Really? (was RE: Voice recognition will never kill the keyboard was: Re: Evolution) In-Reply-To: <4CA9550A.6010908@atarimuseum.com> References: <4CA9550A.6010908@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <4CA9587C.3060304@ubanproductions.com> As with many on this list, we have been using computers pretty much since their inception. And while I too am typing this on a MacBook Pro, which I do like for the most part, my experience with Apple products is that they are about 90%. They get the basics right and the potential for being really great is there, but there are always a handful of gee wouldn't it be nice if this application did this, etc. On the other hand, I pretty much know what this says about Microsoft... Of course I do like Linux, mostly because it is where Unix applications have pretty much evolved (and I run Unix on a couple of boxes as well), but while Linux has more or less succeeded in sustaining itself as the third runner in a three party system (where even the government has only really been able to maintain a two party system), the number of applications which just aren't available for Linux prohibits it's sole use. For this same reason, I run a virtual engine on the mac so that I can (and regularly do) run Mac OS X, Windows XP, and Ubuntu Linux, each for it's own set of features. They coexist quite nicely and I'm a happy camper, except when I want to do one of those things on one of my Apple products which someone has decided should not be allowed, or isn't worth the additional effort... sigh! --tom On 10/3/10 11:16 PM, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > I have an iPad. I like the 3G built in and to be able to tap the internet and internet-connected > apps from it. However, the formfactor is a little too large and it gets to be annoying to hold at > times, I would actually like something perhaps 1/2 to 3/4 its size. The onscreen keyboard is > okay, but is BEGGING for arrow keys as the tap and click method is a potluck shot each and every time. > > It has no flash support which is a MAJOR disappointment beyond belief. Lack of standard ports > like a USB port and the ability to load/unload data to/from it to some form of storage accessible > space is a glaring issue. > > Its a nice piece of technology, but I rate it a "B" overall because while thin and innovative, it is > too proprietary and too closed. > > I am looking very closely at the upcoming Playbook by Research in Motion myself and it is turns out > to be a good solid device, the iPad will be headed to Ebay. > > > Curt > > > > Ian King wrote: >> Please, I just ate.... The iPad is another Apple marketing success, but it isn't "defining" in >> any sense. Just because the bleating masses bought a bunch of them doesn't mean it's a meaningful >> step in any direction except profit. It just means that the marketeers at Apple are without >> peer. That's not a compliment. >> Keep in mind that I'm typing this on a PowerBook - I'm not anti-Mac. I own and really enjoy a 7" >> Android tablet device - I'm not anti-tablet. (I also own a Fujitsu Stylistic Tablet PC that I >> bought a long time ago, and if you want to sit down over a couple of beers I'd be happy to talk >> about its strengths and weaknesses and why the "Tablet PC" was ultimately doomed.) I'm not >> anti-"device", as I've been saying for some time that the "Personal Computer" has had its day and >> will be supplanted by "devices" that are not recognizable as computers - and it's happening, with >> the proliferation of mobile devices as the primary mechanism for consumption of information >> technology for millions of people around the world. (Why does Microsoft do so poorly in this >> market? Because it's in their DNA to tie it to the Personal Computer.) >> But the iPad? Yuppie status symbol. Yet another expression of Steve Jobs' control freak >> personality. Dead end. IMHO -- Ian ________________________________________ >> From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Liam Proven >> [lproven at gmail.com] >> Sent: Sunday, October 03, 2010 9:15 AM >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only >> Subject: Re: Voice recognition will never kill the keyboard was: Re: Evolution >> >> On 2 October 2010 19:59, Tony Duell wrote: >> >>>> For the existing apps that are mouse-centric, I see touchscreens >>>> replacing them, but for things that are text-centric I don't see that >>>> as a good transition. >>>> >>> TOuchscreens have been tried in the past (the most obviosu example is the >>> HP150 'Touchscreen PC') and I think they were always found to be less >>> convenient to use than a mouse or trackball. You have to move your hand >>> further (keyboard to screen rather than keyboard to mouse on desk near >>> keybaord), and you arm/hand is not supported (e.g. by resting it on the >>> desk) when you are doing the pointing. >>> >> >> Well, yes, in 1983 they quite definitely weren't viable yet. :?) >> >> The iPad is the defining device of this technology, at least so far. >> It isn't a desktop computer and doesn't try to be. It's not a Mac, >> it's not Mac-compatible. It has no windows, no desktop, no menu bar, >> no Dock or trashcan. No keyboard, no screen, no system unit, no >> removable media, no hard disk or floppy drive. >> >> It is a *device*, not a "computer". (Even though it runs Unix.) It >> sits in cradled in your lap or held in your hands as you operate it >> with your thumbs. The screen /is/ the computer. It weighs under a kilo >> and the battery lasts a day of use. >> >> And despite it being nothing like anything anyone is used to, it sold >> about three million devices in its first month or so. >> >> >> -- >> Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven >> Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com >> Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 >> AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 >> >> >> > > From csquared3 at tx.rr.com Sun Oct 3 17:38:18 2010 From: csquared3 at tx.rr.com (Charlie Carothers) Date: Sun, 03 Oct 2010 17:38:18 -0500 Subject: Evolution of the Apple Mouse In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CA905DA.4020306@tx.rr.com> On 10/3/2010 1:03 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> I do worry sometimes about all the appliances we have with IMHO > > Not a microwave oven, but for washing machines : > > Old washing machine ran for 40 years. In that time it needed one repair > to its electromechancal timer, something which involved me cutting about > 1" of brass strip and screwing it in place. Of course in those 40 years > it's needed new hosesm seals, etc, but I am only considering the timer... Been there, done that, though it has been quite a few years. I would still be glad to fix things that way if possible. > > New washing machine : After about 4 years, the motor control module > failed. And it was the custom microcontroller chip. I have the wiring > diagram, but not of course schematics of the module, but I could prove > the relays, triac, etc were fine. And they won't sell just the chip :-(. > Result : Over \punds 100 for the motor controller. I had exactly the same thing happen. By that I mean I had clothes washer board/s fail after only about 5 years. I kept the bad boards but have not yet tried to delve into exactly what is wrong with them. When the washer needs replacing I'd love to get one with a simple electromechanical timer. Unfortunately, I'm not sure that is possible any more. The guy at the Fixit Shop where I usually buy my appliance parts did not think so when I mentioned that idea the last time I was in there. This crazy washer we have now has two motors: a pump motor which runs at line frequency, but the main mechanism drive motor is PWM'ed at varying frequencies up to I think a few KHz. Who needs it? Not me! Washing clothes is not rocket science! > > Now which do you think I prefer? > >> unnecessary electronics since we don't have a whole house surge >> supressor. e.g. Clothes washer and dryer, range, refrigerator. The > > Our new ovens do have electronic timers, but the thermostat is still the good > old bulb + bellows type. And it's fairly obvious how to bypass the timer > if it fails so you can still cook manually (which is all we ever so anyway). > Yeah, us too, as far as manually cooking goes. But so much of the control stuff is electronic I don't think it would be very easy to circumvent. At best, it would probably look pretty bad I think. I should probably really get serious about a whole house surge suppressor, though I realize that still does not remove 100% of the vulnerability. Later, Charlie C. > -tony > From ploopster at gmail.com Mon Oct 4 04:05:35 2010 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 04 Oct 2010 05:05:35 -0400 Subject: Evolution of the Apple Mouse In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CA998DF.2060901@gmail.com> Tony Duell wrote: > I don;t think vi will make use of a mouse... *Some* versions can. Peace... Sridhar From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Mon Oct 4 07:42:26 2010 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 04 Oct 2010 07:42:26 -0500 Subject: iPad? Really? (was RE: Voice recognition will never kill the keyboard was: Re: Evolution) In-Reply-To: <4CA9587C.3060304@ubanproductions.com> References: <4CA9550A.6010908@atarimuseum.com> <4CA9587C.3060304@ubanproductions.com> Message-ID: <4CA9CBB2.1090801@gmail.com> Tom Uban wrote: > As with many on this list, we have been using computers pretty much since their inception. And while > I too am typing this on a MacBook Pro, which I do like for the most part, my experience with Apple > products is that they are about 90%. They get the basics right and the potential for being really > great is there, but there are always a handful of gee wouldn't it be nice if this application did > this, etc. They could rule to world if only they could get past their smug sense of, "we know your needs better than you do"... From dseagrav at lunar-tokyo.net Mon Oct 4 08:10:17 2010 From: dseagrav at lunar-tokyo.net (Daniel Seagraves) Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2010 08:10:17 -0500 Subject: iPad? Really? (was RE: Voice recognition will never kill the keyboard was: Re: Evolution) In-Reply-To: <4CA9CBB2.1090801@gmail.com> References: <4CA9550A.6010908@atarimuseum.com> <4CA9587C.3060304@ubanproductions.com> <4CA9CBB2.1090801@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Oct 4, 2010, at 7:42 AM, Jules Richardson wrote: > Tom Uban wrote: >> As with many on this list, we have been using computers pretty much since their inception. And while >> I too am typing this on a MacBook Pro, which I do like for the most part, my experience with Apple >> products is that they are about 90%. They get the basics right and the potential for being really >> great is there, but there are always a handful of gee wouldn't it be nice if this application did >> this, etc. > > They could rule to world if only they could get past their smug sense of, "we know your needs better than you do"... Choice of device or operating system should be based on the intended user and workload required. It's not a religion. Saying "I am typing this on a mac..." to qualify bashing someone for their choice is like saying "I have a few black friends too..." to qualify racism. It's hollow and cliche and nobody believes it. You just sound like a dope to everyone except other people who share your bias. I have a Mac and it pays my bills. When I go home I run Windows for playing games. I have a Wii and a Playstation 3 and an iPhone, all of which are hacked for various reasons. Here at work we have many Windows machines and many Linux machines. Each item is picked for their intended task and workload. Some of these workloads are more clearly defined than others, and some of them exist just for entertainment value, but none of them is "better" than the others. You can't say with any sort of accuracy that device X is stupid and useless in all situations because you don't know every possible user/workload combination in existence. Nor can you say that item X is better than item Y in all respects for every workload because everything is designed differently by different people for different goals. It's like saying a crescent wrench is always better than a Vise Grip. They may look vaguely similar, they may have the same user in mind, but they were designed with two different tasks in mind, so trying to compare them and speak authoritatively about this comparison is flawed and intellectually dishonest. From uban at ubanproductions.com Mon Oct 4 08:55:56 2010 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Mon, 04 Oct 2010 08:55:56 -0500 Subject: iPad? Really? (was RE: Voice recognition will never kill the keyboard was: Re: Evolution) In-Reply-To: References: <4CA9550A.6010908@atarimuseum.com> <4CA9587C.3060304@ubanproductions.com> <4CA9CBB2.1090801@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4CA9DCEC.3020508@ubanproductions.com> On 10/4/10 8:10 AM, Daniel Seagraves wrote: > > On Oct 4, 2010, at 7:42 AM, Jules Richardson wrote: > >> Tom Uban wrote: >>> As with many on this list, we have been using computers pretty much since their inception. And while >>> I too am typing this on a MacBook Pro, which I do like for the most part, my experience with Apple >>> products is that they are about 90%. They get the basics right and the potential for being really >>> great is there, but there are always a handful of gee wouldn't it be nice if this application did >>> this, etc. >> >> They could rule to world if only they could get past their smug sense of, "we know your needs better than you do"... > > Choice of device or operating system should be based on the intended user and workload required. It's not a religion. Saying "I am typing this on a mac..." to qualify bashing someone for their choice is like saying "I have a few black friends too..." to qualify racism. It's hollow and cliche and nobody believes it. You just sound like a dope to everyone except other people who share your bias. > > I have a Mac and it pays my bills. When I go home I run Windows for playing games. I have a Wii and a Playstation 3 and an iPhone, all of which are hacked for various reasons. Here at work we have many Windows machines and many Linux machines. Each item is picked for their intended task and workload. Some of these workloads are more clearly defined than others, and some of them exist just for entertainment value, but none of them is "better" than the others. You can't say with any sort of accuracy that device X is stupid and useless in all situations because you don't know every possible user/workload combination in existence. Nor can you say that item X is better than item Y in all respects for every workload because everything is designed differently by different people for different goals. It's like saying a crescent wrench is always better than a Vise Grip. They may look vaguely similar, they may have the same user in mind, but they were designed with two different task s in mind, so trying to compare them and speak authoritatively about this comparison is flawed and intellectually dishonest. > > > > No, saying that I use products from the company that I'm criticizing means that I am not simply joining a bandwagon without experience. I was not "bashing" anybody for their choice, I was simply making my opinion known and primarily saying that I think that Apple could make their products, which are already pretty good, better. Clearly I implied that the choice is dependent on the user/use when I indicated that I use several. I think that I can quantify some amount of better by the fact that my mac, running three different operating systems has only frozen once on me whereas my PC running Windows has blue screened many times. Of course everyone's mileage varies depending on their use and application sets. Since when is posting ones experiences and views "flawed and intellectually dishonest"? Instead of tying your personal attacks to my comments, saying that I can and cannot do this or that, please start your own fresh comment on the topic... From dkelvey at hotmail.com Mon Oct 4 09:20:11 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2010 07:20:11 -0700 Subject: IS501 sensor -- my solution In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk ---snip--- > Much gabbing of signals with the LogicDart later, I spotted the odd > glitch in one of the output waveforms. No idea what was causing it, but a > 1nF camacitor in parallel with the 470R resistor on each phototransitor > cleared it up. And cleaered up the posiiton problem > > Now 'all' I have to do is align the carriage rails properly. Iv'e > refitted the rest of the printer mechansim, and it does print, but it > fades out after few lines, to recover only wne I clean the end of the > ink cartridge. I suspect the spark is flying in slightly the wrong > direction and putting carbon ('ink') on the end of the cartridge, causing > HV leakage. > > So, the replacement for the IS501 consisted of the sensor from a cheap > mouse and a 74LS14, a couple of R's and a couple of C's from my junk box... > > -tony > Hi Tony Your solution to the waveform is interesting. You added the capacitor to fix the problem caused by the 74LS14. The problem is that the hysteresis of the LS14 is so large that it eats up the phase margines of the roughly sine/cosine from the optical sensors. I've seen these used as input in mice before. I don't know why no one ever ran a simulation or even looked at an oscilloscope output of the mouse. One should be using a comparitor with a small amount of hysteresis. The LS14s have such large hysteresis that they eat up almost all of the phase margine. I guess it was done by an engineer that looked at the original design and said "if I replace the compaitor with a LS14, I can remove the feedback resistors and save a few fractions of a penny". Dwight From dseagrav at lunar-tokyo.net Mon Oct 4 10:32:44 2010 From: dseagrav at lunar-tokyo.net (Daniel Seagraves) Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2010 10:32:44 -0500 Subject: iPad? Really? (was RE: Voice recognition will never kill the keyboard was: Re: Evolution) In-Reply-To: <4CA9DCEC.3020508@ubanproductions.com> References: <4CA9550A.6010908@atarimuseum.com> <4CA9587C.3060304@ubanproductions.com> <4CA9CBB2.1090801@gmail.com> <4CA9DCEC.3020508@ubanproductions.com> Message-ID: <7F4E4C79-4874-448E-BEB3-FEAF93C07DCE@lunar-tokyo.net> On Oct 4, 2010, at 8:55 AM, Tom Uban wrote: > On 10/4/10 8:10 AM, Daniel Seagraves wrote: >> >> On Oct 4, 2010, at 7:42 AM, Jules Richardson wrote: >> >>> Tom Uban wrote: >>>> As with many on this list, we have been using computers pretty much since their inception. And while >>>> I too am typing this on a MacBook Pro, which I do like for the most part, my experience with Apple >>>> products is that they are about 90%. They get the basics right and the potential for being really >>>> great is there, but there are always a handful of gee wouldn't it be nice if this application did >>>> this, etc. >>> >>> They could rule to world if only they could get past their smug sense of, "we know your needs better than you do"... >> >> Choice of device or operating system should be based on the intended user and workload required. It's not a religion. Saying "I am typing this on a mac..." to qualify bashing someone for their choice is like saying "I have a few black friends too..." to qualify racism. It's hollow and cliche and nobody believes it. You just sound like a dope to everyone except other people who share your bias. >> >> I have a Mac and it pays my bills. When I go home I run Windows for playing games. I have a Wii and a Playstation 3 and an iPhone, all of which are hacked for various reasons. Here at work we have many Windows machines and many Linux machines. Each item is picked for their intended task and workload. Some of these workloads are more clearly defined than others, and some of them exist just for entertainment value, but none of them is "better" than the others. You can't say with any sort of accuracy that device X is stupid and useless in all situations because you don't know every possible user/workload combination in existence. Nor can you say that item X is better than item Y in all respects for every workload because everything is designed differently by different people for different goals. It's like saying a crescent wrench is always better than a Vise Grip. They may look vaguely similar, they may have the same user in mind, but they were designed with two different tasks in mind, so trying to compare them and speak authoritatively about this comparison is flawed and intellectually dishonest. > > No, saying that I use products from the company that I'm criticizing means that I am not simply > joining a bandwagon without experience. I was not "bashing" anybody for their choice, I was simply > making my opinion known and primarily saying that I think that Apple could make their products, > which are already pretty good, better. > > Clearly I implied that the choice is dependent on the user/use when I indicated that I use several. > > I think that I can quantify some amount of better by the fact that my mac, running three different > operating systems has only frozen once on me whereas my PC running Windows has blue screened many > times. Of course everyone's mileage varies depending on their use and application sets. > > Since when is posting ones experiences and views "flawed and intellectually dishonest"? > > Instead of tying your personal attacks to my comments, saying that I can and cannot do this or > that, please start your own fresh comment on the topic... Well, my post was more directed at the OP saying that the iPad is absolutely useless and braindamaged and would disappear in a couple years. I wasn't trying to attack you personally. If that was my intention I would have used your name and called you an idiot directly. Posting ones views and experiences is all well and good, but you're desperately trying to compare Mac OS X to Windows on a 1:1 basis and it can't be done. One of them is a desperate last-ditch-resort port of OpenStep with "Save Apple at any cost!" as its only goal, and the other is an overgrown DOS shell swimming in an ocean full of sharks wearing a large weight made from decades of legacy code chained to its neck. Sure your Mac doesn't crash as often, but how often can you go to Wal-Mart and run the latest game on the shelf? How often can you open the complex VBA-macro-infested Excel spreadsheet your co-worker emails you, edit it, and send it back without garbaging it? What about throwing together an emergency machine for $500 using parts from the local PC junk shop? There's a multitude of things out there that only work on Windows, and if you have to trade off on reliability to achieve compatibility, then that's what you have to do. You can't have your cake and eat it too. Personally my view is that everything sucks in its own special way, and there is always room for improvement. My "improvement" may not be better for everyone else. Some things really bother me but not everyone else. I'd love it if the Apple Mail reply default was not top-posting, but everyone else in the office is too lazy to scroll to the bottom of a message for the new parts. How about fixing the bug where the wrong app gets focus when you switch Spaces? I think that irritates just about everyone who experiences it. There's always no shortage of issues to fix in any system. Apple is not unique in this regard. From oltmansg at bellsouth.net Mon Oct 4 10:38:39 2010 From: oltmansg at bellsouth.net (geoffrey oltmans) Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2010 08:38:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: iPad? Really? (was RE: Voice recognition will never kill the keyboard was: Re: Evolution) In-Reply-To: References: <4CA9550A.6010908@atarimuseum.com> <4CA9587C.3060304@ubanproductions.com> <4CA9CBB2.1090801@gmail.com> Message-ID: <588353.60083.qm@web83902.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> I admit I bought a MacBook (two actually) for a couple reasons over a Wintel laptop, not the least of which was the aesthetic consideration. There is no doubt they are better looking IMO, and they have a nice uncluttered design. I don't need a zillion different interfaces in/out of the thing. Seems like every wintel laptop manufacturer out there wants to plaster a bunch of different connectors all over the laptop for every conceivable interface type. These days, USB is all I need. I think one thing that Apple really has an advantage over the competition is their power brick design. Not only is it incredibly small, it has that snazzy magsafe power connector, which has saved my laptop untold damage (and that's after having owned an HP which I had to replace the power jack on). The other big reason was OS X itself. I wanted to play with it, and it had the advantage of having Xcode included with the OS, the dev tools for Windows costs a lot (yeah yeah, Vis C++ Free Edition). I have been very happy with how turnkey the OS is while still feeling professional, Time Machine is awesome, and upgrading a hard disk (thanks to Time Machine) was very, very easy. I think the 5-10% of things that I don't like about my MacBook (namely some case weaknesses) have been addressed in the subsequent designs. Does everything I need it to do. Is it the end all, be all? Nope, but I still really like it a lot. YMMV. ________________________________ From: Daniel Seagraves To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Sent: Mon, October 4, 2010 8:10:17 AM Subject: Re: iPad? Really? (was RE: Voice recognition will never kill the keyboard was: Re: Evolution) On Oct 4, 2010, at 7:42 AM, Jules Richardson wrote: > Tom Uban wrote: >> As with many on this list, we have been using computers pretty much since their >>inception. And while >> I too am typing this on a MacBook Pro, which I do like for the most part, my >>experience with Apple >> products is that they are about 90%. They get the basics right and the >>potential for being really >> great is there, but there are always a handful of gee wouldn't it be nice if >>this application did >> this, etc. > > They could rule to world if only they could get past their smug sense of, "we >know your needs better than you do"... Choice of device or operating system should be based on the intended user and workload required. It's not a religion. Saying "I am typing this on a mac..." to qualify bashing someone for their choice is like saying "I have a few black friends too..." to qualify racism. It's hollow and cliche and nobody believes it. You just sound like a dope to everyone except other people who share your bias. I have a Mac and it pays my bills. When I go home I run Windows for playing games. I have a Wii and a Playstation 3 and an iPhone, all of which are hacked for various reasons. Here at work we have many Windows machines and many Linux machines. Each item is picked for their intended task and workload. Some of these workloads are more clearly defined than others, and some of them exist just for entertainment value, but none of them is "better" than the others. You can't say with any sort of accuracy that device X is stupid and useless in all situations because you don't know every possible user/workload combination in existence. Nor can you say that item X is better than item Y in all respects for every workload because everything is designed differently by different people for different goals. It's like saying a crescent wrench is always better than a Vise Grip. They may look vaguely similar, they may have the same user in mind, but they were designed with two different tasks in mind, so trying to compare them and speak authoritatively about this comparison is flawed and intellectually dishonest. From doc at vaxen.net Mon Oct 4 11:05:40 2010 From: doc at vaxen.net (Doc) Date: Mon, 04 Oct 2010 11:05:40 -0500 Subject: iPad? Really? (was RE: Voice recognition will never kill the keyboard was: Re: Evolution) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CA9FB54.3060105@vaxen.net> Ian King wrote: > Please, I just ate.... The iPad is another Apple marketing success, but it isn't "defining" in any sense. Just because the bleating masses bought a bunch of them doesn't mean it's a meaningful step in any direction except profit. It just means that the marketeers at Apple are without peer. That's not a compliment. > But the iPad? Yuppie status symbol. Yet another expression of Steve Jobs' control freak personality. Dead end. IMHO -- Ian I must respectfully disagree. As an Apple fan-boy I don't own and don't really plan to own an iPad, but it has literally "defined" a new generation of computing/communication devices. There are already a half-dozen slapped-up "aPad" products coming out of China. Tablets suspiciously like the iPad running Android. There are a staggering number of aPads in development that will probably actually be quality products. I've seen several PC companies introduce tablets or laptops that convert to tablets over the years, and none of them sold many pieces or influenced the market at all, really. I think that no matter what you think of the iPad itself, you'd have to admit that it IS a defining milestone in personal hardware. Doc From IanK at vulcan.com Mon Oct 4 12:26:59 2010 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2010 10:26:59 -0700 Subject: iPad? Really? (was RE: Voice recognition will never kill the keyboard was: Re: Evolution) In-Reply-To: <7F4E4C79-4874-448E-BEB3-FEAF93C07DCE@lunar-tokyo.net> References: <4CA9550A.6010908@atarimuseum.com> <4CA9587C.3060304@ubanproductions.com> <4CA9CBB2.1090801@gmail.com> <4CA9DCEC.3020508@ubanproductions.com> <7F4E4C79-4874-448E-BEB3-FEAF93C07DCE@lunar-tokyo.net> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Daniel Seagraves > > Well, my post was more directed at the OP saying that the iPad is > absolutely useless and braindamaged and would disappear in a couple > years. I wasn't trying to attack you personally. If that was my > intention I would have used your name and called you an idiot directly. > I did not say it was absolutely useless. I objected to the ORIGINAL original poster, who called it "defining." It's another evolutionary point along a couple of paths and, like a lot of Apple v1s, has a lot of flaws, some of which are unlikely to disappear due to Apple's heavy-handed policies. I'm also not saying it will disappear - hopefully it will evolve into something that isn't so weighed down by Apple's world-domination approach to the user experience, something that isn't so awkward, and something that isn't so stinking expensive. > Posting ones views and experiences is all well and good, but you're > desperately trying to compare Mac OS X to Windows on a 1:1 basis and it > can't be done. I did not read this as "desperately trying...", but rather read the responses to which you object as saying, "Look, I'm not an Apple-basher." Actually, the iPad has made me more critical of Apple than I've been in years. I almost bought one - until I realized I'd have to stand on my head to make it do the things I want it to do. By comparison, my Android tablet is an open platform, I can read the types of documents I want to read, consume the forms of media that suit me, and I can write code for it (and ON it). (Its 7" form factor also fits in my hand, which is likely why Apple is rumored to be planning a "me, too".) Perhaps my original words were a bit harsh - but I couldn't let "defining" go by without some challenge. And I don't think that the iPad of two years from now will look like the current ooh-ahh gadget of the bleeding-edge set - but given the experiences I've heard with the iPhone, it will assuredly be as unnecessarily limited in its capabilities. From uban at ubanproductions.com Mon Oct 4 12:42:33 2010 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Mon, 04 Oct 2010 12:42:33 -0500 Subject: iPad? Really? (was RE: Voice recognition will never kill the keyboard was: Re: Evolution) In-Reply-To: References: <4CA9550A.6010908@atarimuseum.com> <4CA9587C.3060304@ubanproductions.com> <4CA9CBB2.1090801@gmail.com> <4CA9DCEC.3020508@ubanproductions.com> <7F4E4C79-4874-448E-BEB3-FEAF93C07DCE@lunar-tokyo.net> Message-ID: <4CAA1209.7050904@ubanproductions.com> On 10/4/10 12:26 PM, Ian King wrote: >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- >> bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Daniel Seagraves >> >> Well, my post was more directed at the OP saying that the iPad is >> absolutely useless and braindamaged and would disappear in a couple >> years. I wasn't trying to attack you personally. If that was my >> intention I would have used your name and called you an idiot directly. >> > I did not say it was absolutely useless. I objected to the ORIGINAL original poster, who called it "defining." It's another evolutionary point along a couple of paths and, like a lot of Apple v1s, has a lot of flaws, some of which are unlikely to disappear due to Apple's heavy-handed policies. I'm also not saying it will disappear - hopefully it will evolve into something that isn't so weighed down by Apple's world-domination approach to the user experience, something that isn't so awkward, and something that isn't so stinking expensive. > >> Posting ones views and experiences is all well and good, but you're >> desperately trying to compare Mac OS X to Windows on a 1:1 basis and it >> can't be done. > > I did not read this as "desperately trying...", but rather read the responses to which you object as saying, "Look, I'm not an Apple-basher." Actually, the iPad has made me more critical of Apple than I've been in years. I almost bought one - until I realized I'd have to stand on my head to make it do the things I want it to do. By comparison, my Android tablet is an open platform, I can read the types of documents I want to read, consume the forms of media that suit me, and I can write code for it (and ON it). (Its 7" form factor also fits in my hand, which is likely why Apple is rumored to be planning a "me, too".) > > Perhaps my original words were a bit harsh - but I couldn't let "defining" go by without some challenge. And I don't think that the iPad of two years from now will look like the current ooh-ahh gadget of the bleeding-edge set - but given the experiences I've heard with the iPhone, it will assuredly be as unnecessarily limited in its capabilities. > > > Thank you for also following up Ian, I agree with what you are saying here and have also considered an iPad a couple of times now but have backed away for similar reasons. Unfortunately I don't have enough time in my days at this point to track all of the available options and so if you could direct me to something informative about this "Android tablet" you have mentioned, I would appreciate it... Note that in my case, I do like the larger size as my eye now require cheaters to read super small print and some the applications for which I would like to use the device may simply require more real estate. Are there various size options for the Android tablets? --tnx --tom From IanK at vulcan.com Mon Oct 4 12:59:42 2010 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2010 10:59:42 -0700 Subject: iPad? Really? (was RE: Voice recognition will never kill the keyboard was: Re: Evolution) In-Reply-To: <4CAA1209.7050904@ubanproductions.com> References: <4CA9550A.6010908@atarimuseum.com> <4CA9587C.3060304@ubanproductions.com> <4CA9CBB2.1090801@gmail.com> <4CA9DCEC.3020508@ubanproductions.com> <7F4E4C79-4874-448E-BEB3-FEAF93C07DCE@lunar-tokyo.net> <4CAA1209.7050904@ubanproductions.com> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: Tom Uban [mailto:uban at ubanproductions.com] > Sent: Monday, October 04, 2010 10:43 AM > To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Cc: Ian King > Subject: Re: iPad? Really? (was RE: Voice recognition will never kill > the keyboard was: Re: Evolution) > > On 10/4/10 12:26 PM, Ian King wrote: > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > >> bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Daniel Seagraves > >> > >> Well, my post was more directed at the OP saying that the iPad is > >> absolutely useless and braindamaged and would disappear in a couple > >> years. I wasn't trying to attack you personally. If that was my > >> intention I would have used your name and called you an idiot > directly. > >> > > I did not say it was absolutely useless. I objected to the ORIGINAL > original poster, who called it "defining." It's another evolutionary > point along a couple of paths and, like a lot of Apple v1s, has a lot > of flaws, some of which are unlikely to disappear due to Apple's heavy- > handed policies. I'm also not saying it will disappear - hopefully it > will evolve into something that isn't so weighed down by Apple's world- > domination approach to the user experience, something that isn't so > awkward, and something that isn't so stinking expensive. > > > >> Posting ones views and experiences is all well and good, but you're > >> desperately trying to compare Mac OS X to Windows on a 1:1 basis and > it > >> can't be done. > > > > I did not read this as "desperately trying...", but rather read the > responses to which you object as saying, "Look, I'm not an Apple- > basher." Actually, the iPad has made me more critical of Apple than > I've been in years. I almost bought one - until I realized I'd have to > stand on my head to make it do the things I want it to do. By > comparison, my Android tablet is an open platform, I can read the types > of documents I want to read, consume the forms of media that suit me, > and I can write code for it (and ON it). (Its 7" form factor also fits > in my hand, which is likely why Apple is rumored to be planning a "me, > too".) > > > > Perhaps my original words were a bit harsh - but I couldn't let > "defining" go by without some challenge. And I don't think that the > iPad of two years from now will look like the current ooh-ahh gadget of > the bleeding-edge set - but given the experiences I've heard with the > iPhone, it will assuredly be as unnecessarily limited in its > capabilities. > > > > > > > > Thank you for also following up Ian, I agree with what you are saying > here and have > also considered an iPad a couple of times now but have backed away for > similar reasons. > Unfortunately I don't have enough time in my days at this point to > track all of the > available options and so if you could direct me to something > informative about this > "Android tablet" you have mentioned, I would appreciate it... Note that > in my case, I > do like the larger size as my eye now require cheaters to read super > small print and > some the applications for which I would like to use the device may > simply require more > real estate. Are there various size options for the Android tablets? > These things are coming out of the woodwork these days - you can't swing a dead Newton :-) without hitting another vendor. Mine was purchased from an online vendor called Merimobiles, and is the "iRobot aPad E7001" with a dual-core Chinese RockChip processor. There's an E7002 now, from what I've seen, with a bit more speed. But the site slatedroid.com gives both information and opinion on a slew of new devices that fall between Ereaders-on-megavitamins and small-footprint netbooks, including somewhere in the middle tablets such as mine. Some devices are being sold through department stores - I even saw a mall kiosk a couple of weeks ago. I too have "mature eyes" and use reading glasses. I've seen these devices from 5" (ISTR there's a Dell device) and up to 10" or so. I elected to go with the 7" form factor for convenience: it fits in my hand, it fits in the glove boxes of either my truck or my motorcycle, it slips into the bag that carries the laptop (Windows 7) that I use for work. Yes, I thought about the larger devices, but frankly that was one reason I stopped consistently using my Fujitsu Stylistic Tablet PC: it didn't fit into a saddlebag. I'm not saying that my aPad is without flaw - it has its 'early adopter' warts. (Many of these are addressed by new flash images built by people in the user community - ah, open platforms are handy, aren't they?) But it's also $150. It has an externally-accessible microSD slot, a USB port that works in either direction (access a keyboard, memory stick, etc. OR serve up USB mass storage), a multitasking operating system - and did I mention it was $150? -- Ian From jplist2008 at kiwigeek.com Mon Oct 4 13:08:33 2010 From: jplist2008 at kiwigeek.com (JP Hindin) Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2010 13:08:33 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Looking for IBM 5250 TwinAx terminal... Message-ID: Anyone in the US (preferably close to Iowa, but I suspect that's wishful thinking) got a 5250 that they might be able to spare? I now have the space to work on bringing my System/34 to working order and it didn't come with a terminal. While I'm at it, anyone particularly familiar with the /34 that would be willing to lend me their ear now and then as I'm working on it? Thanks; - JP From dseagrav at lunar-tokyo.net Mon Oct 4 13:45:29 2010 From: dseagrav at lunar-tokyo.net (Daniel Seagraves) Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2010 13:45:29 -0500 Subject: Looking for IBM 5250 TwinAx terminal... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Oct 4, 2010, at 1:08 PM, JP Hindin wrote: > > While I'm at it, anyone particularly familiar with the /34 that would be > willing to lend me their ear now and then as I'm working on it? > I haven't touched one in years, but I worked with one before. I might be able to help get it fired up. Also, if anyone can think of a way to scan and process them, I still have a box of microfiche with source code for the S/34 SSP. From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Oct 4 13:49:18 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 04 Oct 2010 14:49:18 -0400 Subject: Looking for IBM 5250 TwinAx terminal... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CAA21AE.4030704@neurotica.com> On 10/4/10 2:45 PM, Daniel Seagraves wrote: > Also, if anyone can think of a way to scan and process them, I still have a box of microfiche with source code for the S/34 SSP. Oooh, THAT definitely needs to get scanned! -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Oct 4 13:51:12 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 04 Oct 2010 14:51:12 -0400 Subject: Looking for IBM 5250 TwinAx terminal... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CAA2220.20808@neurotica.com> On 10/4/10 2:08 PM, JP Hindin wrote: > Anyone in the US (preferably close to Iowa, but I suspect that's wishful > thinking) got a 5250 that they might be able to spare? I now have the > space to work on bringing my System/34 to working order and it didn't come > with a terminal. I have two 5250s on my System/36 (5360), but I don't really want to part with either of them. I might be willing to work out a long-term loan, though, if you strike out elsewhere. Please keep me posted as to your progress; this family of IBM machines strongly piques my curiosity. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 4 15:27:00 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2010 21:27:00 +0100 (BST) Subject: Evolution of the Apple Mouse In-Reply-To: <4CA905DA.4020306@tx.rr.com> from "Charlie Carothers" at Oct 3, 10 05:38:18 pm Message-ID: > > New washing machine : After about 4 years, the motor control module > > failed. And it was the custom microcontroller chip. I have the wiring > > diagram, but not of course schematics of the module, but I could prove > > the relays, triac, etc were fine. And they won't sell just the chip :-(. > > Result : Over \punds 100 for the motor controller. > I had exactly the same thing happen. By that I mean I had clothes > washer board/s fail after only about 5 years. I kept the bad boards but > have not yet tried to delve into exactly what is wrong with them. When I did a lot of tests on the old board before I ordere a replacement (of course). The circuitry is all directly connected ot the power line, and my bench isolating transformer is not large enough to run a washing machine, so I was somewhat limited in the test equipment I could use, but I proved it was the mcirocotnroller, als... > the washer needs replacing I'd love to get one with a simple > electromechanical timer. Unfortunately, I'm not sure that is possible I don;t think you can get them either. Even ones that seem to have a mechancial timer don't. Oh, they have a knob that goes round as the cycle progresses and which has cams to operate switches, but the motor that drives it is controlled by a microprocessor. Foo!. > any more. The guy at the Fixit Shop where I usually buy my appliance > parts did not think so when I mentioned that idea the last time I was in > there. This crazy washer we have now has two motors: a pump motor which > runs at line frequency, but the main mechanism drive motor is PWM'ed at > varying frequencies up to I think a few KHz. Who needs it? Not me! > Washing clothes is not rocket science! Indeed... Old washing machine has one main motor. It's a capacitor start indcution motor with a centrifugal switch to cut out the starting winding when it's up to speed (and a feedback wire from the switch to the timer so the thing only carries on when the motor is up to speed). The pump is on the front of that motor, direct drive. There's a 2-speed gearbox on the back to get the faster speed for spin drying, and a solenoid to select the gear ration. Nice and simple. The new washing machine has a shaded-pole motor for the pump (only). The drive motor is a brush-type DC motor. It has 7 wires coming out of it -- 2 to the burshes, 3 to the (tapped) field and 2 from a tachogenerator. The motor control PCB has relays to select the field tap (fast or slow speed range), swap ove the bush connections (reverse the motor) and motor enable. And a triac for fine speed control. There's a custom microcontroller that takes a bit-serial command from the timer microprocesosr (alas details of the cammands are not on the wiring diagrams or parts lists), takes feedback fro mthe tachogenerator, and controls the relays and triac. And you know, I don;t think it gets the clothes any cleaner... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 4 15:32:55 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2010 21:32:55 +0100 (BST) Subject: Another 935 shot... In-Reply-To: <4CA880EA.7638.BA2409@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Oct 3, 10 01:11:06 pm Message-ID: > You guys haven't lived until you've used your torch to disassemble a > tuba with a dead rat stuck inside. The fragrance is "unique"... I suspect it's more pleasant than trying to play a tuba with a dead rat inside. I have images of somebody putting their hand up the bell of a French Horn and feeling something furry or decomposing :-(... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 4 15:42:30 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2010 21:42:30 +0100 (BST) Subject: IS501 sensor -- my solution In-Reply-To: from "dwight elvey" at Oct 4, 10 07:20:11 am Message-ID: > Hi Tony > Your solution to the waveform is interesting. You added the capacitor > to fix the problem caused by the 74LS14. The problem is that the > hysteresis of the LS14 is so large that it eats up the phase > margines of the roughly sine/cosine from the optical sensors. I don't think this is the same problem. Without the capacitors, and with the 470R resistors, I was getting waveforms with roughtly 1:1 mark-space ratio, and while not exactly in quadrature, pretty darn close. The only problem was that every so often (perhaps 1 in every 10000 pulses), there would be a glitch in one of the waveforms. It's not supply relateded, and I couldn't repodcude it by, say, jiggling the encoder disk. But that glitch was taken by the elctronics as a valid pulse which upset things. AAdding the capacitors hasn't noticeably changed the mark:space ratio or the phasing. But it's got rid of the glitches. A lot of optical mice use the '14 and the output signals look pretty good to me. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 4 15:15:41 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2010 21:15:41 +0100 (BST) Subject: Evolution of the Apple Mouse In-Reply-To: <201010031610.03096.pat@computer-refuge.org> from "Patrick Finnegan" at Oct 3, 10 04:10:02 pm Message-ID: > Look at "GPM." It's been available for Linux "forever" (at least since > the days of 2.0.x kernel-based distributions), and lets you use a mouse Actually, that's not 'forever' enough for my system... > You should be able to use it with an PC "serial mouse" or "bus mouse" on > your hacked-up PC/AT. (I'm sure you at least have some serial ports on > the box even if you don't have a free ISA slot to shove a bus mouse card > into. :) Actually, I am short of serial ports. I have 2, one is used for the printer (Apple LW2NT), the other for either the modem or whatever I want to link to the machine (like my HP handhelds, EPROM programmer, etc). And yes, I am out of ISA slots too... -tony From IanK at vulcan.com Mon Oct 4 15:48:33 2010 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2010 13:48:33 -0700 Subject: Sparcstation Voyager media? Message-ID: Hey folks, This is a question about a piece I have in my personal collection: a Sparcstation SS240 Voyager. It's a sun4m architecture luggable workstation with an LCD screen. The whole thing fits into a large shoulder bag - large enough it wouldn't be accepted for carryon luggage. It's cute, and it runs (after I replaced the NVRAM chip). When I got it, the machine had been set up with NetBSD, but being the masochistic sort I am I wanted to restore it to its original software. It just so happens I had Solaris 2.6 and gave it a crack. Solaris starts up just fine, but the device won't go into CDE, claiming that it can't find the framebuffer driver. Looking at the firmware, I see that it identifies a device called bwthree. Solaris 2.6 has a driver for bwtwo, but I've been unable to find a bwthree anywhere. (Google gives me pages and pages of "BW3," refusing to believe I want what I typed. Sometimes software is too helpful.) The original documentation for the Voyager describes custom install media - which presumably includes this driver. Does anyone happen to have such a CDROM? Can you confirm for me that there is in fact a driver so named? And if you have a running Voyager, is that what's in your /platform/kernel/drv directory? Otherwise, I guess I could just run NetBSD, but it's just not as fun. :) Thanks - Ian From dkelvey at hotmail.com Mon Oct 4 16:59:39 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2010 14:59:39 -0700 Subject: IS501 sensor -- my solution In-Reply-To: References: from "dwight elvey" at Oct 4, 10 07:20:11 am, Message-ID: > From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk > > > Hi Tony > > Your solution to the waveform is interesting. You added the capacitor > > to fix the problem caused by the 74LS14. The problem is that the > > hysteresis of the LS14 is so large that it eats up the phase > > margines of the roughly sine/cosine from the optical sensors. > > I don't think this is the same problem. Without the capacitors, and with > the 470R resistors, I was getting waveforms with roughtly 1:1 mark-space > ratio, and while not exactly in quadrature, pretty darn close. The only > problem was that every so often (perhaps 1 in every 10000 pulses), there > would be a glitch in one of the waveforms. It's not supply relateded, and > I couldn't repodcude it by, say, jiggling the encoder disk. > > But that glitch was taken by the elctronics as a valid pulse which upset > things. > > AAdding the capacitors hasn't noticeably changed the mark:space ratio or > the phasing. But it's got rid of the glitches. > > A lot of optical mice use the '14 and the output signals look pretty good > to me. > > -tony > Hi Tony It looks good as long as you are going one direction. Try one tick backwards and you'll understand, right after the other input has flipped. You'll get and error count. I won't happen all the time, just when it stops in that small window of the cycle. And, yes, I know a lot of mice use the LS14. I've even tinkered a few into working with them in them. Those that have a LM339 or similar work fine. It should have about 10% or less hysteresis feedback. Most LS14s are in the order of 30% or more. Try the LM339 and resistors. Dwight From tosteve at yahoo.com Mon Oct 4 18:28:58 2010 From: tosteve at yahoo.com (steven stengel) Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2010 16:28:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 200+ vintage computers for sale - LaCrosse, WI Message-ID: <712476.41247.qm@web110615.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> I am posting this on behalf of Carl - see below: -------------------------------------- Carl W. Thurston writes: I have about 1500 cubic feet of classic computer systems, peripherals, manuals, software, and parts for sale. Nearly every Apple, Atari, Amiga, Compaq, Commodore, to mention a few. Some notable models like: Calcomp Terrac, DEC Rainbow, Kaypro, Osborne 1, IBM PC luggable, Zenith luggable,etc. Lots of NOS parts, service manuals, and Diagnostics. Would like to sell entire collection (was part of a Technology Museum), contact me about particulars or questions. See big list here: http://popbottlecaps.com/temp/accession.html Contact: Carl W. Thurston Western Technical College La Crosse, WI 54601 ThurstonC at westerntc.edu -------------------------------------- From tosteve at yahoo.com Mon Oct 4 18:43:23 2010 From: tosteve at yahoo.com (steven stengel) Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2010 16:43:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 1981 Xitan S-100 system for sale - Norwalk, CA Message-ID: <979701.33579.qm@web110608.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> I am posting this on behalf of Todd - see below: ------------------------------------- I have a Xitan XOR-100, which is an S-100 bus system with 8-inch floppy drives running CP/M. Along with that is a Televideo TVI-950 terminal. I have most of the manuals and other documentation. I also have a non-booting Apple Macintosh SE (10MB internal disk) with a third-party external 20MB SCSI drive. toddlitwin at charter.net ------------------------------------- From chd at chdickman.com Mon Oct 4 18:55:16 2010 From: chd at chdickman.com (Charles Dickman) Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2010 19:55:16 -0400 Subject: Looking for IBM 5250 TwinAx terminal... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Oct 4, 2010 at 2:08 PM, JP Hindin wrote: > > Anyone in the US (preferably close to Iowa, but I suspect that's wishful > thinking) got a 5250 that they might be able to spare? I now have the > space to work on bringing my System/34 to working order and it didn't come > with a terminal. > > I have two 5291 terminals that I would be willing to get rid of. They were used with a System/34 (that I still have). I cannot guarantee that they are functional other than that the CRT comes up with a normal screen. I am in Ohio, 45865. Contact me directly if you are interested and we can negotiate the details. -chuck From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Mon Oct 4 18:56:48 2010 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2010 16:56:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Janus programming language for CP/M-86 Message-ID: I came across a set of disks labeled "Janus CP/M-86 Compiler", "Janus CP/M-86 Linker" and "Janus CP/M-86 Support" from RR Software. I presume these have nothing to do with the Janus lanuage created in 1990[1], but instead has something to do with reversible computing, if Wikipedia is accurate on this. How rare is this find? [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Janus_(programming_language) -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From mdavidson1963 at gmail.com Mon Oct 4 18:59:43 2010 From: mdavidson1963 at gmail.com (Mark Davidson) Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2010 16:59:43 -0700 Subject: Janus programming language for CP/M-86 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Oct 4, 2010 at 4:56 PM, David Griffith wrote: > > I came across a set of disks labeled "Janus CP/M-86 Compiler", "Janus > CP/M-86 Linker" and "Janus CP/M-86 Support" from RR Software. ?I presume > these have nothing to do with the Janus lanuage created in 1990[1], but > instead has something to do with reversible computing, if Wikipedia is > accurate on this. ?How rare is this find? RR software produced (and still produces) Ada compilers. Janus was their implementation for (I believe) a subset of the Ada language. I'd say finding this for CP/M-86 is pretty rare. Mark From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Mon Oct 4 19:03:09 2010 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2010 17:03:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Janus programming language for CP/M-86 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 4 Oct 2010, Mark Davidson wrote: > On Mon, Oct 4, 2010 at 4:56 PM, David Griffith wrote: >> >> I came across a set of disks labeled "Janus CP/M-86 Compiler", "Janus >> CP/M-86 Linker" and "Janus CP/M-86 Support" from RR Software. ?I presume >> these have nothing to do with the Janus lanuage created in 1990[1], but >> instead has something to do with reversible computing, if Wikipedia is >> accurate on this. ?How rare is this find? > > RR software produced (and still produces) Ada compilers. Janus was > their implementation for (I believe) a subset of the Ada language. > > I'd say finding this for CP/M-86 is pretty rare. I found their website just now -- interesting. If anyone associated with a museum wants these disks (I'm looking at you Al Kossow), please let me know and I'll donate them. Otherwise, it goes on ebay. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From mdavidson1963 at gmail.com Mon Oct 4 19:06:20 2010 From: mdavidson1963 at gmail.com (Mark Davidson) Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2010 17:06:20 -0700 Subject: Janus programming language for CP/M-86 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Oct 4, 2010 at 5:03 PM, David Griffith wrote: > On Mon, 4 Oct 2010, Mark Davidson wrote: > >> On Mon, Oct 4, 2010 at 4:56 PM, David Griffith >> wrote: >>> >>> I came across a set of disks labeled "Janus CP/M-86 Compiler", "Janus >>> CP/M-86 Linker" and "Janus CP/M-86 Support" from RR Software. ?I presume >>> these have nothing to do with the Janus lanuage created in 1990[1], but >>> instead has something to do with reversible computing, if Wikipedia is >>> accurate on this. ?How rare is this find? >> >> RR software produced (and still produces) Ada compilers. ?Janus was >> their implementation for (I believe) a subset of the Ada language. >> >> I'd say finding this for CP/M-86 is pretty rare. > > I found their website just now -- interesting. ?If anyone associated with a > museum wants these disks (I'm looking at you Al Kossow), please let me know > and I'll donate them. ?Otherwise, it goes on ebay. In my mind, the fact that they are for CP/M-86 is what makes them rare. Since RR is still in business, you can still get their software, which is great... but I've never seen Janus for CP/M-86 *anywhere*. :) If I collected CP/M-86 software, I'd want them. Mark From lproven at gmail.com Mon Oct 4 19:08:32 2010 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2010 01:08:32 +0100 Subject: iPad? Really? (was RE: Voice recognition will never kill the keyboard was: Re: Evolution) In-Reply-To: References: <4CA9550A.6010908@atarimuseum.com> <4CA9587C.3060304@ubanproductions.com> <4CA9CBB2.1090801@gmail.com> <4CA9DCEC.3020508@ubanproductions.com> <7F4E4C79-4874-448E-BEB3-FEAF93C07DCE@lunar-tokyo.net> <4CAA1209.7050904@ubanproductions.com> Message-ID: On 4 October 2010 18:59, Ian King wrote: > These things are coming out of the woodwork these days - you can't swing a dead Newton :-) without hitting another vendor. ?Mine was purchased from an online vendor called Merimobiles, and is the "iRobot aPad E7001" with a dual-core Chinese RockChip processor. ?There's an E7002 now, from what I've seen, with a bit more speed. ?But the site slatedroid.com gives both information and opinion on a slew of new devices that fall between Ereaders-on-megavitamins and small-footprint netbooks, including somewhere in the middle tablets such as mine. ?Some devices are being sold through department stores - I even saw a mall kiosk a couple of weeks ago. > > I too have "mature eyes" and use reading glasses. ?I've seen these devices from 5" (ISTR there's a Dell device) and up to 10" or so. ?I elected to go with the 7" form factor for convenience: it fits in my hand, it fits in the glove boxes of either my truck or my motorcycle, it slips into the bag that carries the laptop (Windows 7) that I use for work. ?Yes, I thought about the larger devices, but frankly that was one reason I stopped consistently using my Fujitsu Stylistic Tablet PC: it didn't fit into a saddlebag. > > I'm not saying that my aPad is without flaw - it has its 'early adopter' warts. ?(Many of these are addressed by new flash images built by people in the user community - ah, open platforms are handy, aren't they?) ?But it's also $150. ?It has an externally-accessible microSD slot, a USB port that works in either direction (access a keyboard, memory stick, etc. OR serve up USB mass storage), a multitasking operating system - and did I mention it was $150? ?-- Ian Glad you came back & followed up on this. I'm with doc at vaxen.net on this. Defining a category does /not/ by any means denote that a device is the best in its category. I've spent a few hours playing with iPads & whereas I think they're brilliant devices, I don't want one, any more than I want an iPhone. (And yes, I like Apple kit & own a fair bit of it.) They're just too closed for me. I wouldn't want it any smaller, myself, nor any slower, but I /would/ want a couple of USB ports, a card slot (or 2 or 3, given the size of the device), and a rather more open OS. I would add multitasking but I believe the iPad is getting that very soon, so it seems a tad unfair. But the UI of the iPhone and the iPad is a work of art. It's something qualitatively different from mouse-oriented WIMPs: it's a GUI, but of the WIMP acronym, there are no W, M or P, only I, and those are as much buttons anyway. The iPhone introduced the GUI and showed that a company completely new to the mobile-phone sector could produce a device massively better than all the best efforts of every mobile phone company ever. OK, so, in many ways, it's constrained, but it's still brilliant. But the iPhone was a bit too small to be a general-purpose computing device. The iPad takes the idea and runs with it. Me, I'd be much more inclined to an Android - or perhaps better still, Palm/HP WebOS - clone with a bit more expandability and a lot more openness. But TBH, for my purposes, I foresee sticking to laptops. Not even netbooks, but real laptops. I tend to buy ultralight "executive" models that are 2-3 years old and so as cheap as netbooks, but with 2-4x the power and capacity. -- Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From lproven at gmail.com Mon Oct 4 19:33:50 2010 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2010 01:33:50 +0100 Subject: Sparcstation Voyager media? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 4 October 2010 21:48, Ian King wrote: > (Google gives me pages and pages of "BW3," refusing to believe I want what I typed. ?Sometimes software is too helpful.) Try putting it in quotes. Seems to work for me. -- Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From arcbe2001 at yahoo.com Mon Oct 4 20:11:08 2010 From: arcbe2001 at yahoo.com (Russ Bartlett) Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2010 18:11:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Looking for IBM 5250 TwinAx terminal... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <371448.78528.qm@web110405.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> I may be able to help although my background was from an application standpoint:? RPG II, Cobol, WSU,OCL, DFU,Query, etc. Russ --- On Mon, 10/4/10, JP Hindin wrote: From: JP Hindin Subject: Looking for IBM 5250 TwinAx terminal... To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Date: Monday, October 4, 2010, 2:08 PM Anyone in the US (preferably close to Iowa, but I suspect that's wishful thinking) got a 5250 that they might be able to spare? I now have the space to work on bringing my System/34 to working order and it didn't come with a terminal. While I'm at it, anyone particularly familiar with the /34 that would be willing to lend me their ear now and then as I'm working on it? Thanks; - JP From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Mon Oct 4 21:18:47 2010 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Mon, 04 Oct 2010 21:18:47 -0500 Subject: IP Fragments - Worth doing, testing strategies? In-Reply-To: <201009300442.o8U4g1kB091673@lots.reanimators.org> References: <4CA3E6E5.3000409@brutman.com> <201009300442.o8U4g1kB091673@lots.reanimators.org> Message-ID: <4CAA8B07.9090308@brutman.com> Well, it turned out to be far easier to generate fragments than it was to debug them. I had the perfect TCP/IP stack that didn't try any fancy tricks to probe the MTU size all along - my own! An instance of DOSBox with routing properly setup to go through the Linux box did the trick. I ran netcat on both sides, and soon was awash in fragments. Then came the part I hate about DOS programming - memory corruption and crashes. I really hate it when I can't find the bug that causes the problem; I'm really paranoid about that kind of thing because once a little entropy creeps into the system, it's hard to remove. Eventually I figured out my bugs and it's been happily reassembling packets under all sorts of stressful conditions for the last few hours. Mike From charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net Mon Oct 4 21:31:55 2010 From: charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net (Charles Morris) Date: Mon, 04 Oct 2010 21:31:55 -0500 Subject: Tandy DeskMate floppies Message-ID: I uncovered some "vintage" Tandy DeskMate software on five 3.5" floppies. Labeled (Radio Shack?) Catalog No. 25-3551, (C) 1984, 1990. Anyone want them for $5.00 plus Media Mail postage from 65775... please contact me offlist. thanks. From charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net Mon Oct 4 21:48:56 2010 From: charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net (Charles Morris) Date: Mon, 04 Oct 2010 21:48:56 -0500 Subject: Looking for HP LaserJet part Message-ID: I now have a HP LaserJet IIp Plus printer, (initially free, and I got it working at a cost about equal to buying a good used one, but that's another story)... anyhow, I am trying to find the "Optional Lower Cassette" that holds 250 sheets of paper and fits underneath the printer (instead of feeding them 20-30 at a time through the front door). No luck in the usual places. Does anyone have a "parts" IIp from which I can buy the cassette & paper tray? thanks Charles From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Oct 4 22:33:56 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2010 20:33:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Sparcstation Voyager media? In-Reply-To: from Ian King at "Oct 4, 10 01:48:33 pm" Message-ID: <201010050333.o953Xuxm016310@floodgap.com> > This is a question about a piece I have in my personal collection: a > Sparcstation SS240 Voyager. Jealousy. "All" I have is a Solbourne S3000 (though mine has OS/MP on the drive and is in fully working order). -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- TRUE HEADLINE: Prostitutes Appeal to Pope ---------------------------------- From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Mon Oct 4 22:53:15 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2010 00:53:15 -0300 Subject: Looking for HP LaserJet part References: Message-ID: <08fe01cb6441$cb611460$aa0359bb@portajara> >Does anyone have a "parts" IIp from which I can buy the cassette & >paper tray? Can't you use something rarer? e.g.: An original Apple I? :o) From rodsmallwood at btconnect.com Tue Oct 5 01:01:30 2010 From: rodsmallwood at btconnect.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2010 07:01:30 +0100 Subject: Looking for IBM 5250 TwinAx terminal... In-Reply-To: <4CAA21AE.4030704@neurotica.com> References: <4CAA21AE.4030704@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4B8E7E4F9E0C4357B5611432F6E26B95@RodsDevSystem> Hi Dave Was it you who had the 370? If so what's the status on it? Regards ? Rod Smallwood ? ? -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dave McGuire Sent: 04 October 2010 19:49 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Looking for IBM 5250 TwinAx terminal... On 10/4/10 2:45 PM, Daniel Seagraves wrote: > Also, if anyone can think of a way to scan and process them, I still have a box of microfiche with source code for the S/34 SSP. Oooh, THAT definitely needs to get scanned! -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From spedraja at ono.com Tue Oct 5 01:10:12 2010 From: spedraja at ono.com (SPC) Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2010 08:10:12 +0200 Subject: 200+ vintage computers for sale - LaCrosse, WI In-Reply-To: <712476.41247.qm@web110615.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <712476.41247.qm@web110615.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Actually I am searching for spares and complements for one AT&T 3B2/400. I live in Europe but shipment is not a problem, at least in a a first stage. Sergio 2010/10/5 steven stengel > I am posting this on behalf of Carl - see below: > -------------------------------------- > > Carl W. Thurston writes: > I have about 1500 cubic feet of classic computer systems, peripherals, > manuals, software, and parts for sale. > Nearly every Apple, Atari, Amiga, Compaq, Commodore, to mention a few. > > Some notable models like: Calcomp Terrac, DEC Rainbow, Kaypro, Osborne 1, > IBM PC luggable, Zenith luggable,etc. > > Lots of NOS parts, service manuals, and Diagnostics. > Would like to sell entire collection (was part of a Technology Museum), > contact me about particulars or questions. > > See big list here: > http://popbottlecaps.com/temp/accession.html > > Contact: > Carl W. Thurston > Western Technical College > La Crosse, WI 54601 > ThurstonC at westerntc.edu > -------------------------------------- > > > > > > From quapla at xs4all.nl Tue Oct 5 01:40:12 2010 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (E. Groenenberg) Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2010 08:40:12 +0200 Subject: Sparcstation Voyager media? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3aa3f32f94b500d25ae1d4d844f2242b.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Hi, Sun4m architecture accepts Solaris 7 & 8. Regards, Ed > Hey folks, > > This is a question about a piece I have in my personal collection: a > Sparcstation SS240 Voyager. It's a sun4m architecture luggable > workstation with an LCD screen. The whole thing fits into a large > shoulder bag - large enough it wouldn't be accepted for carryon luggage. > It's cute, and it runs (after I replaced the NVRAM chip). > > When I got it, the machine had been set up with NetBSD, but being the > masochistic sort I am I wanted to restore it to its original software. It > just so happens I had Solaris 2.6 and gave it a crack. Solaris starts up > just fine, but the device won't go into CDE, claiming that it can't find > the framebuffer driver. > > Looking at the firmware, I see that it identifies a device called bwthree. > Solaris 2.6 has a driver for bwtwo, but I've been unable to find a > bwthree anywhere. (Google gives me pages and pages of "BW3," refusing to > believe I want what I typed. Sometimes software is too helpful.) > > The original documentation for the Voyager describes custom install media > - which presumably includes this driver. Does anyone happen to have such > a CDROM? Can you confirm for me that there is in fact a driver so named? > And if you have a running Voyager, is that what's in your > /platform/kernel/drv directory? > > Otherwise, I guess I could just run NetBSD, but it's just not as fun. :) > Thanks - Ian > > > > -- Dit is een HTML vrije email / This is an HTML free email. From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Oct 5 01:45:39 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 05 Oct 2010 02:45:39 -0400 Subject: Sparcstation Voyager media? In-Reply-To: <3aa3f32f94b500d25ae1d4d844f2242b.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> References: <3aa3f32f94b500d25ae1d4d844f2242b.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <4CAAC993.3060509@neurotica.com> On 10/5/10 2:40 AM, E. Groenenberg wrote: > Sun4m architecture accepts Solaris 7& 8. Actually, sun4m support was added in Solaris 2.1 and removed in Solaris 2.9 (a.k.a. "Solaris 9"). -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Oct 5 01:46:32 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 05 Oct 2010 02:46:32 -0400 Subject: Looking for IBM 5250 TwinAx terminal... In-Reply-To: <4B8E7E4F9E0C4357B5611432F6E26B95@RodsDevSystem> References: <4CAA21AE.4030704@neurotica.com> <4B8E7E4F9E0C4357B5611432F6E26B95@RodsDevSystem> Message-ID: <4CAAC9C8.5060801@neurotica.com> On 10/5/10 2:01 AM, Rod Smallwood wrote: > Was it you who had the 370? If so what's the status on it? Yes, that's me. It's still right in the garage where we pulled it off the truck. It has been a very busy few months for me and I've not been able to get to it. I'm crossing my fingers for some time this fall. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From brad at heeltoe.com Tue Oct 5 10:31:16 2010 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2010 11:31:16 -0400 Subject: Repairing Debian on an Alpha 433au In-Reply-To: <00b001cb6341$6e6ca8b0$4b45fa10$@ntlworld.com> (sfid-20101003_172624_408083_FE0BB196) References: <00af01cb6336$1212d900$36388b00$@ntlworld.com> <201010031615.58957.pat@computer-refuge.org> <00b001cb6341$6e6ca8b0$4b45fa10$@ntlworld.com> (sfid-20101003_172624_408083_FE0BB196) Message-ID: <60BCEA09-6F37-4DF5-A536-255E901F6DA7@heeltoe.com> You might try "init=/bin/sh" to keep any init scripts from running. That way you can piece together what it's trying to do, tracing from /etc/inittab Those errors look like the kernel is up but some init script is unhappy. -brad On Oct 3, 2010, at 5:24 PM, Rob Jarratt wrote: > I have actually tried both ways, with and without DK0 plugged in. That > particular boot I sent the log for had both disks plugged in > > Mind you the spare disk that is in there now is DK0. That replaced a disk at > DKA100 which had VMS on it, which I had to take out temporarily to make way > for the temporary disk to put the second instance of Debian on. So when the > machine was working I had VMS on DKA100 and Debian on DKA200. Now I have the > temporary Debian on DK0 and the "proper" Debian on DKA200. > > I will try your suggestion when I next get the chance to test, which won't > be for a few days now. I may also try putting the VMS disk back in so I have > DKA100 and DKA200 again, not sure if this will make a difference. > > Regards > > Rob > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- >> bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Patrick Finnegan >> Sent: 03 October 2010 21:16 >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >> Subject: Re: Repairing Debian on an Alpha 433au >> >> On Sunday, October 03, 2010, Rob Jarratt wrote: >>> The 433au I have came with an instance of Debian which has DECnet >>> installed on it, I am not sure what version of Debian it is. After a >>> power outage the superblock on DKA200 was corrupted. I managed to >>> install another instance of Debian (3.1r0) on DK0 and run e2fsck -p on >>> the DKA200 disk to fix it. However when I try to boot the original >>> Debian instance it says it can't find /dev/sdb3. In the new instance >>> of Debian I can mount the sdb3 disk without issue. Below is the output >>> on the console when it fails to boot. There is a message about the >>> driver sd needing to be updated, but this was a working system so I am >>> not convinced that is the problem. Can anyone offer any insight as to >>> why this will still not boot? >> >> The kernel is only seeing one disk. By any chance, are you pulling the > first disk >> (DKA0?) when you try booting from the 2nd disk (DKA200)? >> >> Maybe try telling aboot root=/dev/sda3 for your root device instead. >> >> Pat >> -- >> Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ >> The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org Brad Parker Heeltoe Consulting 781-483-3101 http://www.heeltoe.com From woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net Tue Oct 5 12:33:01 2010 From: woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net (Dave Woyciesjes) Date: Tue, 05 Oct 2010 13:33:01 -0400 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Legendary_steampunk_computer_=27should_?= =?windows-1252?Q?be_built=27_-_programmer_=95_The_Register?= Message-ID: <4CAB614D.2060506@sbcglobal.net> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/10/05/analytical_engine_build_call/ -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- ICQ# 905818 --- AIM - woyciesjes --- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech - http://certification.comptia.org/ --- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst - http://www.ThinkHDI.com/ Registered Linux user number 464583 "Computers have lots of memory but no imagination." "The problem with troubleshooting is that trouble shoots back." - from some guy in the internet. From cclist at sydex.com Tue Oct 5 13:06:18 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 05 Oct 2010 11:06:18 -0700 Subject: Free LA-100 posting Message-ID: <4CAB06AA.18624.1007FD1@cclist.sydex.com> Fellow is posting an LA100 for shipping on Eric's VCF: http://www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum/showthread.php?22269-FREE-DEC- LA100-LetterWriter --Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Oct 5 12:56:58 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2010 18:56:58 +0100 (BST) Subject: IS501 sensor -- my solution In-Reply-To: from "dwight elvey" at Oct 4, 10 02:59:39 pm Message-ID: > > > Your solution to the waveform is interesting. You added the capacitor > > > to fix the problem caused by the 74LS14. The problem is that the > > > hysteresis of the LS14 is so large that it eats up the phase > > > margines of the roughly sine/cosine from the optical sensors. > >=20 > > I don't think this is the same problem. Without the capacitors=2C and wit= > h=20 > > the 470R resistors=2C I was getting waveforms with roughtly 1:1 mark-spac= > e=20 > > ratio=2C and while not exactly in quadrature=2C pretty darn close. The on= > ly=20 > > problem was that every so often (perhaps 1 in every 10000 pulses)=2C ther= > e=20 > > would be a glitch in one of the waveforms. It's not supply relateded=2C a= > nd=20 > > I couldn't repodcude it by=2C say=2C jiggling the encoder disk. > >=20 > > But that glitch was taken by the elctronics as a valid pulse which upset= > =20 > > things.=20 > >=20 > > AAdding the capacitors hasn't noticeably changed the mark:space ratio or= > =20 > > the phasing. But it's got rid of the glitches.=20 > >=20 > > A lot of optical mice use the '14 and the output signals look pretty good= > =20 > > to me.=20 > >=20 > > -tony > >=20 > > Hi Tony > It looks good as long as you are going one direction. Try one tick > backwards and you'll understand=2C right after the other input has > flipped. You'll get and error count. I won't happen all the time=2 > just when it stops in that small window of the cycle. Now, let's think about this.. Firstly, the time constant of a 470R resitor and 1nF capacitor is aroundhalf a microsecond. The periods of the quadrature signals are measured in milliseconds. Therefoe, the capacitor has little effect on the timing mark:space ratiom,. etc, of these signals. It just removes very narrow glitches. There is always a potential probklem when you reverse the direction of rotation of aquadrature encoder. The simple scheme for getting a clock and direction signal, shown in an awful lot of books, and used in some lesser devices, has a bug IMHO. Basically, no matter how perfect the signals are, you may end up with the direction signal beign in the wrong state for the first clock pulse. FWIW, the logic in this printer is considerably more complex, and I don't think it sufferes from this problem. Your thoguhts are based on the assumption that the output form the photosensor is sinusoidal. That, I think assumes that the size of the photosenseor is the same as the slit width in the encoder disk. This is the case for some good encoders (the HP ones I've worked with, for example), I don't think it applies here. The output looks more like a poor square wave -- sloping sides and a long flat high or low section. This would suggest that the slit is much larger than the sensor. Given that sort of output waveform, it doesn't really matter where on the edge you take as the threshold, the transistion time is short compared to the period of the waveform. So the hysteresis of the comparator doesn't really make that much difference. > And=2C yes=2C I know a lot of mice use the LS14. I've even tinkered a > few into working with them in them. Those that have a LM339 or I'm harldy and expert on mice, but of the ones I've seen : Modern ones (like the PS/2 mouse I took the dual phototransistor from) just feed the imputs into some microcontroller thing. I have no idea what the input characteristics are, and there's no trivial way to measure them []1]. So no idea what the hysteresis is. [1] One way to do it would be to feed a pair of quadrtature signals into the chip with said chip connected to a host expecting a PS/2 mouse, and adjust the high and low levels of each signal in turn until it just stops working. Rather more work than I want to do for this :-) Older ones, which used chips I can recognise, and for whcih I may even have official schematics/service manuals use some kind of TTL or 4000-series CMOS schmitt trigger chip. I[ve not seen one that doesn't. The '14 in variosu forms is common. Maybe it is a bad design really (althohgh as I said, I think that depends on the outputs of the sensors) but it seems to work well enough. > similar work fine. It should have about 10% or less hysteresis > feedback. Most LS14s are in the order of 30% or more. Try > the LM339 and resistors. _If_ I havr problems, then that's what I'll do. So far it seems to be working fine. I have now alinged the carriage [2] and it prints as well as I'd expect a Sparkjet ot print. In other wods it's legible, but nowhre near letter quality. [2] You need to get the axis of the ink cartirdge level with the top of the paper guide electrode, and a consistent distance from it across the paper. If the cartridge is far too low, it doens't print at all. If it's just to lwo, the ink scatters from f the edge of the guide onto the paper and it looks weird. If its' mucth too high, you get ink depositied o nthe front of the cartridge, and the printing fades out after a frw lines. What I did was make a special tool. A 4mm rod (same diameter ad the glss tube in the ink cartridge) with a point on one end (point on the axis of the rod, obviously).I fitted that into the carriage in place of the cartridge (printer power off and casing removed) and adjusted the position of the carirage rail assembly so that the point was just running among the top of the elecrode, and just touching a sheet of paper fed round the platten. On the second attempt, it printed fine.... -tony From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Oct 5 13:35:06 2010 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 05 Oct 2010 11:35:06 -0700 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_Legendary_steampunk_computer_=27s?= =?windows-1252?Q?hould_be_built=27_-_programmer_=95_The_Re?= =?windows-1252?Q?gister?= In-Reply-To: <4CAB614D.2060506@sbcglobal.net> References: <4CAB614D.2060506@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <4CAB6FDA.80305@bitsavers.org> On 10/5/10 10:33 AM, Dave Woyciesjes wrote: > http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/10/05/analytical_engine_build_call/ yeah.. and I want a pony I would be REALLY nice to Doron Swade, if I were him. From oltmansg at bellsouth.net Tue Oct 5 13:40:14 2010 From: oltmansg at bellsouth.net (geoffrey oltmans) Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2010 11:40:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: =?utf-8?B?UmU6IExlZ2VuZGFyeSBzdGVhbXB1bmsgY29tcHV0ZXIgJ3Nob3VsZCBiZSBi?= =?utf-8?B?dWlsdCcgLSBwcm9ncmFtbWVyIOKAoiBUaGUgUmVnaXN0ZXI=?= In-Reply-To: <4CAB614D.2060506@sbcglobal.net> References: <4CAB614D.2060506@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <10727.72117.qm@web83911.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> why? Can't we just simulate it? ________________________________ From: Dave Woyciesjes To: ClassicCMP Sent: Tue, October 5, 2010 12:33:01 PM Subject: Legendary steampunk computer 'should be built' - programmer ? The Register http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/10/05/analytical_engine_build_call/ -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- ICQ# 905818 --- AIM - woyciesjes --- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech - http://certification.comptia.org/ --- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst - http://www.ThinkHDI.com/ Registered Linux user number 464583 "Computers have lots of memory but no imagination." "The problem with troubleshooting is that trouble shoots back." - from some guy in the internet. From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Oct 5 13:43:06 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 05 Oct 2010 14:43:06 -0400 Subject: =?UTF-8?B?UmU6IExlZ2VuZGFyeSBzdGVhbXB1bmsgY29tcHV0ZXIgJ3Nob3VsZCA=?= =?UTF-8?B?YmUgYnVpbHQnIC0gcHJvZ3JhbW1lciDigKIgVGhlIFJlZ2lzdGVy?= In-Reply-To: <10727.72117.qm@web83911.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <4CAB614D.2060506@sbcglobal.net> <10727.72117.qm@web83911.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4CAB71BA.4020907@neurotica.com> ROFL! You're a bad, bad man. ;) -Dave On 10/5/10 2:40 PM, geoffrey oltmans wrote: > why? Can't we just simulate it? > > > > > ________________________________ > From: Dave Woyciesjes > To: ClassicCMP > Sent: Tue, October 5, 2010 12:33:01 PM > Subject: Legendary steampunk computer 'should be built' - programmer ? The > Register > > http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/10/05/analytical_engine_build_call/ > -- --- Dave Woyciesjes > --- ICQ# 905818 > --- AIM - woyciesjes > --- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech - http://certification.comptia.org/ > --- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst - http://www.ThinkHDI.com/ > Registered Linux user number 464583 > > "Computers have lots of memory but no imagination." > "The problem with troubleshooting is that trouble shoots back." > - from some guy in the internet. > -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From lproven at gmail.com Tue Oct 5 13:49:17 2010 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2010 19:49:17 +0100 Subject: How much would you reckon a Mac Performa 630 is worth? Message-ID: 25MHz 680LC40, 36MB RAM, MacOS 8.1. TV and Ethernet cards. Because to my astounded delight, I just got ?50 for mine, from a chap who found me via eBay. The auction he was originally interested in, for an LC475, ended for just ?8. But then, that chap only wants the hard disk drive... -- Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From oltmansg at bellsouth.net Tue Oct 5 13:59:35 2010 From: oltmansg at bellsouth.net (geoffrey oltmans) Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2010 11:59:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: =?utf-8?B?UmU6IExlZ2VuZGFyeSBzdGVhbXB1bmsgY29tcHV0ZXIgJ3Nob3VsZCBiZSBi?= =?utf-8?B?dWlsdCcgLSBwcm9ncmFtbWVyIOKAoiBUaGUgUmVnaXN0ZXI=?= In-Reply-To: <4CAB71BA.4020907@neurotica.com> References: <4CAB614D.2060506@sbcglobal.net> <10727.72117.qm@web83911.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <4CAB71BA.4020907@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <55276.14808.qm@web83912.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> :) ________________________________ From: Dave McGuire To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Sent: Tue, October 5, 2010 1:43:06 PM Subject: Re: Legendary steampunk computer 'should be built' - programmer ? The Register ROFL! You're a bad, bad man. ;) -Dave On 10/5/10 2:40 PM, geoffrey oltmans wrote: > why? Can't we just simulate it? > > > > > ________________________________ > From: Dave Woyciesjes > To: ClassicCMP > Sent: Tue, October 5, 2010 12:33:01 PM > Subject: Legendary steampunk computer 'should be built' - programmer ? The > Register > > http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/10/05/analytical_engine_build_call/ > -- --- Dave Woyciesjes > --- ICQ# 905818 > --- AIM - woyciesjes > --- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech - http://certification.comptia.org/ > --- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst - http://www.ThinkHDI.com/ > Registered Linux user number 464583 > > "Computers have lots of memory but no imagination." > "The problem with troubleshooting is that trouble shoots back." > - from some guy in the internet. > -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From teoz at neo.rr.com Tue Oct 5 14:05:17 2010 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2010 15:05:17 -0400 Subject: How much would you reckon a Mac Performa 630 is worth? References: Message-ID: Not too much here in the US (040 with no FPU, bad form factor, crappy IDE for the HD, not much room for expansion, limited RAM). TV option is pretty useless these days with HDTV killing off analog. Maybe 68K Mac pickings are few in the UK? Some 68K models are going up in value since they are getting uncommon thanks to recycling and age. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Liam Proven" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, October 05, 2010 2:49 PM Subject: How much would you reckon a Mac Performa 630 is worth? 25MHz 680LC40, 36MB RAM, MacOS 8.1. TV and Ethernet cards. Because to my astounded delight, I just got ?50 for mine, from a chap who found me via eBay. The auction he was originally interested in, for an LC475, ended for just ?8. But then, that chap only wants the hard disk drive... -- Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From lproven at gmail.com Tue Oct 5 14:08:24 2010 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2010 20:08:24 +0100 Subject: How much would you reckon a Mac Performa 630 is worth? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 5 October 2010 20:05, Teo Zenios wrote: > Not too much here in the US (040 with no FPU, bad form factor, crappy IDE > for the HD, not much room for expansion, limited RAM). TV option is pretty > useless these days with HDTV killing off analog. Maybe 68K Mac pickings are > few in the UK? ?Some 68K models are going up in value since they are getting > uncommon thanks to recycling and age. I was amazed myself. -- Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Oct 5 14:19:01 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2010 12:19:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: How much would you reckon a Mac Performa 630 is worth? In-Reply-To: from Teo Zenios at "Oct 5, 10 03:05:17 pm" Message-ID: <201010051919.o95JJ1ad011958@floodgap.com> j Not too much here in the US (040 with no FPU, bad form factor, crappy IDE > for the HD, not much room for expansion, limited RAM). TV option is pretty > useless these days with HDTV killing off analog. Maybe 68K Mac pickings are > few in the UK? Some 68K models are going up in value since they are getting > uncommon thanks to recycling and age. I keep getting offered P630s for the cost of "get it out of my attic" and I keep saying no. So if I can get that kind of money ... I really don't care for the P/Q630, which is right up there with the Power Mac x2x0 series for Macs I hate. In my case, I despise them largely for my long-familiarity-bred contempt and its dire IDE, though Remy Davidson describes them rather more floridly (my mirrored copy since the original has gone to the Wayback Machine in the sky): http://www.floodgap.com/mirrors/worstmacs.html -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- #include ------------------------------------------------ From alexeyt at freeshell.org Tue Oct 5 14:20:55 2010 From: alexeyt at freeshell.org (Alexey Toptygin) Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2010 19:20:55 +0000 (UTC) Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Legendary_steampunk_computer_=27should_?= =?windows-1252?Q?be_built=27_-_programmer_=95_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: <4CAB614D.2060506@sbcglobal.net> References: <4CAB614D.2060506@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 5 Oct 2010, Dave Woyciesjes wrote: > http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/10/05/analytical_engine_build_call/ >From the article: > Graham-Cumming goes on to add: >> What a marvel it would be to stand before this giant metal machine, >> powered by a steam engine, and running programs fed to it on a reel of >> punched cards. I would also marvel at a reel of punched cards... I thought you usually stack and sheet-feed them. Anyone know what I/O was actually in Babbage's design? Alexey From doc at vaxen.net Tue Oct 5 14:24:11 2010 From: doc at vaxen.net (Doc Shipley) Date: Tue, 05 Oct 2010 14:24:11 -0500 Subject: How much would you reckon a Mac Performa 630 is worth? In-Reply-To: <201010051919.o95JJ1ad011958@floodgap.com> References: <201010051919.o95JJ1ad011958@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <4CAB7B5B.5080707@vaxen.net> On 10/5/10 2:19 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > j Not too much here in the US (040 with no FPU, bad form factor, crappy IDE >> for the HD, not much room for expansion, limited RAM). TV option is pretty >> useless these days with HDTV killing off analog. Maybe 68K Mac pickings are >> few in the UK? Some 68K models are going up in value since they are getting >> uncommon thanks to recycling and age. > > I keep getting offered P630s for the cost of "get it out of my attic" and I > keep saying no. So if I can get that kind of money ... I parsed that as p630 - as in POWER4 - and was about to offer a LOT of help. :) Doc From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Oct 5 14:26:11 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2010 12:26:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: How much would you reckon a Mac Performa 630 is worth? In-Reply-To: <4CAB7B5B.5080707@vaxen.net> from Doc Shipley at "Oct 5, 10 02:24:11 pm" Message-ID: <201010051926.o95JQBUt012008@floodgap.com> > > I keep getting offered P630s for the cost of "get it out of my attic" and I > > keep saying no. So if I can get that kind of money ... > > I parsed that as p630 - as in POWER4 - and was about to offer a LOT > of help. :) No, I would definitely keep every one of those I was offered for free. :-D -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- How do you explain school to a higher intelligence? -- Elliott in "E.T." --- From lproven at gmail.com Tue Oct 5 14:26:36 2010 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2010 20:26:36 +0100 Subject: How much would you reckon a Mac Performa 630 is worth? In-Reply-To: <201010051919.o95JJ1ad011958@floodgap.com> References: <201010051919.o95JJ1ad011958@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On 5 October 2010 20:19, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > j Not too much here in the US (040 with no FPU, bad form factor, crappy IDE >> for the HD, not much room for expansion, limited RAM). TV option is pretty >> useless these days with HDTV killing off analog. Maybe 68K Mac pickings are >> few in the UK? ?Some 68K models are going up in value since they are getting >> uncommon thanks to recycling and age. > > I keep getting offered P630s for the cost of "get it out of my attic" and I > keep saying no. So if I can get that kind of money ... > > I really don't care for the P/Q630, which is right up there with the Power > Mac x2x0 series for Macs I hate. In my case, I despise them largely for > my long-familiarity-bred contempt and its dire IDE, though Remy Davidson > describes them rather more floridly (my mirrored copy since the original > has gone to the Wayback Machine in the sky): > > ? ? ? ?http://www.floodgap.com/mirrors/worstmacs.html Wow. I wouldn't have called it a Road Apple, myself... -- Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From cclist at sydex.com Tue Oct 5 14:28:26 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 05 Oct 2010 12:28:26 -0700 Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?Re:_Legendary_steampunk_computer_'should_be_built'_-_programmer_=E2=80=A2_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: References: <4CAB614D.2060506@sbcglobal.net>, Message-ID: <4CAB19EA.6016.14BB23E@cclist.sydex.com> On 5 Oct 2010 at 19:20, Alexey Toptygin wrote: > I would also marvel at a reel of punched cards... I thought you > usually stack and sheet-feed them. Anyone know what I/O was actually > in Babbage's design? My guess is the same as used on Jacquard looms: http://odur.let.rug.nl/~koster/musicbox/jacquard2.jpg --Chuck From aswood at t-online.de Tue Oct 5 14:48:19 2010 From: aswood at t-online.de (Andreas Holz) Date: Tue, 05 Oct 2010 21:48:19 +0200 Subject: TU55 an ebay Message-ID: <4CAB8103.1020708@t-online.de> Hello, there is a tu55 DecTape at ebay item 260670657286. I'm quite surprised - this is the second tu55 within four weeks. I've never seen any on ebay before. I'm not associated with the seller. -- From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Oct 5 14:49:54 2010 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Tue, 05 Oct 2010 13:49:54 -0600 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_Legendary_steampunk_computer_=27s?= =?windows-1252?Q?hould_be_built=27_-_programmer_=95_The_Re?= =?windows-1252?Q?gister?= In-Reply-To: References: <4CAB614D.2060506@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <4CAB8162.9080101@jetnet.ab.ca> On 05/10/2010 1:20 PM, Alexey Toptygin wrote: > On Tue, 5 Oct 2010, Dave Woyciesjes wrote: > >> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/10/05/analytical_engine_build_call/ > >> From the article: >> Graham-Cumming goes on to add: >>> What a marvel it would be to stand before this giant metal machine, >>> powered by a steam engine, and running programs fed to it on a reel >>> of punched cards. > > I would also marvel at a reel of punched cards... I thought you usually > stack and sheet-feed them. Anyone know what I/O was actually in Babbage's > design? I belive some sort of type setting device casting type for printing. At that time calculating any kind of large mathematical table,for books was what being thought of back then. > Alexey From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Oct 5 14:50:01 2010 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2010 12:50:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: How much would you reckon a Mac Performa 630 is worth? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 5 Oct 2010, Liam Proven wrote: > 25MHz 680LC40, 36MB RAM, MacOS 8.1. TV and Ethernet cards. > > Because to my astounded delight, I just got ?50 for mine, from a chap > who found me via eBay. > > The auction he was originally interested in, for an LC475, ended for > just ?8. But then, that chap only wants the hard disk drive... I would say it depends on if you have software that will only run on such a system. In fact I would consider Mac OS 8.1 to be a drawback for this system. I have software that will only run on System 7.6 or earlier, as System 8 broke it. Zane From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Oct 5 15:15:29 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2010 16:15:29 -0400 Subject: TU55 an ebay In-Reply-To: <4CAB8103.1020708@t-online.de> References: <4CAB8103.1020708@t-online.de> Message-ID: On 10/5/10, Andreas Holz wrote: > Hello, > > there is a tu55 DecTape at ebay item 260670657286. How bizarre - 110VAC at 50Hz. Must have been intended to be run off of a step-down transformer. > I'm quite surprised - this is the second tu55 within four weeks. I've > never seen any on ebay before. I don't recall seeing too many for sale either. -ethan From lproven at gmail.com Tue Oct 5 15:22:12 2010 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2010 21:22:12 +0100 Subject: How much would you reckon a Mac Performa 630 is worth? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 5 October 2010 20:50, Zane H. Healy wrote: > On Tue, 5 Oct 2010, Liam Proven wrote: > >> 25MHz 680LC40, 36MB RAM, MacOS 8.1. TV and Ethernet cards. >> >> Because to my astounded delight, I just got ?50 for mine, from a chap >> who found me via eBay. >> >> The auction he was originally interested in, for an LC475, ended for >> just ?8. But then, that chap only wants the hard disk drive... > > I would say it depends on if you have software that will only run on such a > system. ?In fact I would consider Mac OS 8.1 to be a drawback for this > system. ?I have software that will only run on System 7.6 or earlier, as > System 8 broke it. Hmmm. Interesting. I really liked MacOS 8 myself. Things like the multithreaded Finder and pop-up folders were invaluable, especially for smaller screens; I used them all the time. Things like Internet configuration and setup were much easier, too. And I always found the performance of 8.1 to be pretty good and it was fairly snappy on this machine. I set up my Classic II a few years back with both 7.6.1 (as that was the latest it would run) and 6.0.8, as an exercise, after reading various websites extolling System 6 as being leaner, meaner and faster. Well, it was an epic job to find all the niceties to make System 6 feel like an even slightly grown-up OS: a menubar clock, a hierarchical Apple menu, a network client, TCP/IP stack, screensaver, Windowshade (essential on a 9" screen) and so on. By the time I had it all installed, it was just as slow as 7.6.1 and took about the same amount of RAM - which is significant on a machine with a max memory ceiling of 10MB. In the end I used System 7 almost all the time; if nothing else, when so short of RAM, reasonable working VM helped. Also, I'd got very used to aliases and use them a lot. -- Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From RichA at vulcan.com Tue Oct 5 15:28:18 2010 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2010 13:28:18 -0700 Subject: TU55 an ebay In-Reply-To: References: <4CAB8103.1020708@t-online.de> Message-ID: From: Ethan Dicks Sent: Tuesday, October 05, 2010 1:15 PM > On 10/5/10, Andreas Holz > wrote: >> Hello, >> there is a tu55 DecTape at ebay item 260670657286. > How bizarre - 110VAC at 50Hz. Must have been intended to be run off > of a step-down transformer. What's bizarre about it? It's being sold in Germany. DEC sold a lot of gear that would run 50Hz (most of the world) or 60Hz (US and Japan). Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.PDPplanet.org/ http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Oct 5 15:35:11 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2010 16:35:11 -0400 Subject: TU55 an ebay In-Reply-To: References: <4CAB8103.1020708@t-online.de> Message-ID: On 10/5/10, Rich Alderson wrote: >> How bizarre - 110VAC at 50Hz. Must have been intended to be run off >> of a step-down transformer. > > What's bizarre about it? It's being sold in Germany. DEC sold a lot of > gear that would run 50Hz (most of the world) or 60Hz (US and Japan). Because it's 110VAC/50Hz, not 220VAC/50Hz. I know it's being sold in Germany - the 50Hz is not odd there, the 110VAC is. -ethan From legalize at xmission.com Tue Oct 5 15:36:27 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 05 Oct 2010 14:36:27 -0600 Subject: TU55 an ebay In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 05 Oct 2010 21:48:19 +0200. <4CAB8103.1020708@t-online.de> Message-ID: In article <4CAB8103.1020708 at t-online.de>, Andreas Holz writes: > I'm quite surprised - this is the second tu55 within four weeks. I've > never seen any on ebay before. I believe its called a Poisson distribution. The common expression is "when it rains, it pours". On ebay a successful sale of an item will often prod other owners of the same item to list theirs shortly after the first sale. Ironically the sellers see the first sale, which usually has a high closing price, and figure that they too can obtain that closing price. However, Mr. Deep Pockets already has his and isn't bidding on the subsequently listed items and they often sell for significantly less than what Mr. Deep Pockets paid in the original sale. Its supply and demand in action in a microcosm. A sudden increase in supply pushes the price down as the first "desperate" buyer is now out of the market. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From erik at baigar.de Tue Oct 5 15:41:20 2010 From: erik at baigar.de (Erik Baigar) Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2010 22:41:20 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Tadpole/RDI UltraBook NVRAM problem... Message-ID: Dear Vintage-Computer experts, over the last year I "lost" two Tadpole/RDI UltraBook notebooks. These are Ultra Sparc based machines available in various configurations. Both machines refuse to boot, i.e. they pass all tests and print the right messages, but after initializing the memory they fail to load the kernel (boot disk) or do not send any network messages (boot net). I noticed, that there appear strange strings in the environment variables for hardware-revision for example and further investigation shows that the NVRAM (DS1643) must have lost a part of its content which are filled with e.g. 55 hexadecimal now. My question is, whether someone out there has got such an UltraBook up and running and is willing to read out the NVRAM and send me the contents. The machine has not to be opened to do this since the contents can be listed via the OpenBoot firmware. As most of the bytes should contain 00 it would for example be sufficient to take some low resolution photographs of the hex dump pages containing non-zero bytes and I'd be happy to type them into a hex editor myself... I'd post step by step instructions how the NVRAM's contents can be displayed... Best regards, Erik. P.S. The two UltraBooks are of the following type: U20-14-9-512P, Part No MU20014PCI36, Serial U20/1040, Serial ID 8527455. This one has got THREE hard drives. U200-14-3-128P, Part No MU20014PCI36, Serial U20-1253, Serial ID8526256 with two hard drive bays and one for the battery. From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Tue Oct 5 15:56:38 2010 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2010 16:56:38 -0400 (EDT) Subject: TU55 an ebay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 5 Oct 2010, Richard wrote: > On ebay a successful sale of an item will often prod other owners of the > same item to list theirs shortly after the first sale. Ironically the > sellers see the first sale, which usually has a high closing price, and > figure that they too can obtain that closing price. However, Mr. Deep > Pockets already has his and isn't bidding on the subsequently listed > items and they often sell for significantly less than what Mr. Deep > Pockets paid in the original sale. Its supply and demand in action in > a microcosm. A sudden increase in supply pushes the price down as the > first "desperate" buyer is now out of the market. Except when Mr. Deep Pockets insists on buying up every instance of said item (or piece of a system). This has happened to me quite often. Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From legalize at xmission.com Tue Oct 5 16:20:59 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 05 Oct 2010 15:20:59 -0600 Subject: TU55 an ebay In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 05 Oct 2010 16:56:38 -0400. Message-ID: In article , Mike Loewen writes: > Except when Mr. Deep Pockets insists on buying up every instance of > said item (or piece of a system). This has happened to me quite often. Yes, well some pockets are deeper than others :-). For stuff like SAGE gear, I can easily see the situation you describe being the case. For things like VT100s, its a little different. I have seen a very nice condition VT100 offered on ebay and selling for a high price, followed by a splash of crappy VT100s being listed with high prices that don't sell. The stuff that I monitor tends to be more of the VT100 variety and less of the SAGE variety. Then again, rarity doesn't always translate to price, either. The Aesthedes graphic design system is *extremely* rare and very cool, but was obtained for $10. Of course shipping it was non-trivial, which is probably why no other buyers appeared. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From RichA at vulcan.com Tue Oct 5 16:40:37 2010 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2010 14:40:37 -0700 Subject: TU55 an ebay In-Reply-To: References: <4CAB8103.1020708@t-online.de> Message-ID: From: Ethan Dicks Sent: Tuesday, October 05, 2010 1:35 PM On 10/5/10, Rich Alderson wrote: >>> How bizarre - 110VAC at 50Hz. Must have been intended to be run off >>> of a step-down transformer. >> What's bizarre about it? It's being sold in Germany. DEC sold a lot of >> gear that would run 50Hz (most of the world) or 60Hz (US and Japan). > Because it's 110VAC/50Hz, not 220VAC/50Hz. > I know it's being sold in Germany - the 50Hz is not odd there, the 110VAC is. Oops. 1 huge latte isn't enough, I guess. Thanks for pointing this out so gently. Now I'm pulling the covers back over my head. From alexeyt at freeshell.org Tue Oct 5 16:54:27 2010 From: alexeyt at freeshell.org (Alexey Toptygin) Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2010 21:54:27 +0000 (UTC) Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?Re:_Legendary_steampunk_computer_'should_be_built'_-_programmer_=E2=80=A2_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: <4CAB19EA.6016.14BB23E@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4CAB614D.2060506@sbcglobal.net>, <4CAB19EA.6016.14BB23E@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 5 Oct 2010, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 5 Oct 2010 at 19:20, Alexey Toptygin wrote: > > >> I would also marvel at a reel of punched cards... I thought you >> usually stack and sheet-feed them. Anyone know what I/O was actually >> in Babbage's design? > > My guess is the same as used on Jacquard looms: > > http://odur.let.rug.nl/~koster/musicbox/jacquard2.jpg Whoa, it really is a reel of cards... I'm guessing the bigger holes on the end are for tractor feed? Alexey From arcarlini at iee.org Tue Oct 5 16:55:49 2010 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2010 22:55:49 +0100 Subject: TU55 an ebay In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <837A8B861C0F42078FBB8637823A408D@ANTONIOPC> Rich Alderson [RichA at vulcan.com] wrote: > From: Ethan Dicks > Sent: Tuesday, October 05, 2010 1:35 PM > > On 10/5/10, Rich Alderson wrote: > >>>> How bizarre - 110VAC at 50Hz. Must have been intended to be run >>>> off of a step-down transformer. > >>> What's bizarre about it? It's being sold in Germany. DEC sold a >>> lot of gear that would run 50Hz (most of the world) or 60Hz (US and >>> Japan). > >> Because it's 110VAC/50Hz, not 220VAC/50Hz. > >> I know it's being sold in Germany - the 50Hz is not odd there, the >> 110VAC is. > > Oops. > > 1 huge latte isn't enough, I guess. > > Thanks for pointing this out so gently. Now I'm pulling the covers > back over my head. I can't speak for Germany but in the UK 110V/50Hz is often used in factories and building sites etc. (on building sites look for those car-battery-sized-ish yellow transformer boxes). Not that I'd necessarily expect to see a TU55 on a building site (or even on a factory floor) but the voltage/frequency combination is not actually outlandish. Antonio arcarlini at iee.org From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Oct 5 16:34:40 2010 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2010 22:34:40 +0100 Subject: Voice recognition will never kill the keyboard was: Re:Evolutionof the Apple Mouse References: <4CA41FCD.6050004@neurotica.com><4CA49503.9000108@gmail.com><012a01cb6235$93e5c9d0$82165d0a@user8459cef6fa> Message-ID: <00fe01cb64d9$bd8ebc00$f5fdf93e@user8459cef6fa> ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Liam Proven" > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Sent: Sunday, October 03, 2010 5:30 PM > Subject: Re: Voice recognition will never kill the keyboard was: Re:Evolutionof the > Apple Mouse > > On 2 October 2010 13:51, Andrew Burton wrote: > > > > One thing I believe you missed mentioning is accents. Some of the voice > > recognition games on the Nintendo DS have this problem, where it can > > understand most UK accents but some can trip it up. (Personally, I know I > > can't understand a word anyone says in a broad Yorkshire accent... I found > > this out when I met my ex's grandfather years ago. Very embarrassing > > indeed). > > Then you have people that speak at different speeds. Some people talk slowly > > (Captain Kirk usually... only spoke three... words at a... time!), whilst > > some speak very fast and everyone else sits somewhere in the middle. > > > > Personally, I don't see voice recognition going anywhere major. Just like 3D > > TV, it's cool, but it's still just a passing phase. > > Not until we develop some form of telepathy, no. > > Speech is the major form of information exchange between humans, and > until the time we go to the machines, the machines will be coming to > us. They will be improved until they can understand us, or they'll be > replaced with something that can. > > By the same token, most humans have 2 eyes and can see in 3D, > therefore, displays will be improved until they can fully exploit the > human visual system. > > 3D isn't that hard. I played /Mafia II/ and /Starcraft II/ in 3D at > Eurogamer Expo yesterday. It works well and is really quite > impressive. It really did add to the gameplay experience. > That depends. Wearing 3D glasses always gives me a headache after a few minutes and I wear glasses (four-eyes!) anyway... so how would I wear 3D glasses and still be able to see (clearly) what I am doing? (six-eyes?!) Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From shumaker at att.net Tue Oct 5 17:16:04 2010 From: shumaker at att.net (steve shumaker) Date: Tue, 05 Oct 2010 15:16:04 -0700 Subject: EPAY DEC Qbus Z-80 Message-ID: <4CABA3A4.8030801@att.net> With my limited exposure to the DEC/PDP stuff, this looks strange... Z-80 chips on a QBus card? Is it noteworthy? worth bidding on? unusual? just plain junk? What would it work with/in /on? item no 250693741192 steve From mdavidson1963 at gmail.com Tue Oct 5 17:20:49 2010 From: mdavidson1963 at gmail.com (Mark Davidson) Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2010 15:20:49 -0700 Subject: EPAY DEC Qbus Z-80 In-Reply-To: <4CABA3A4.8030801@att.net> References: <4CABA3A4.8030801@att.net> Message-ID: On Tue, Oct 5, 2010 at 3:16 PM, steve shumaker wrote: > With my limited exposure to the DEC/PDP stuff, this looks strange... Z-80 > chips on a QBus card? ? ?Is it noteworthy? ?worth bidding on? unusual? > just plain junk? What would it work with/in /on? > > item no 250693741192 >From what I can tell (and I'm sure others have more info than I do) the board, made by Virtual Microsystems, was probably used in a CD-ROM server. VM's products were based on InfoServers, so the board might be from one of their server boxes. Of course, I'm just guessing... I could be completely wrong. :) See http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-14019022.html for a bit of info that I found. Mark From legalize at xmission.com Tue Oct 5 17:31:05 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 05 Oct 2010 16:31:05 -0600 Subject: EPAY DEC Qbus Z-80 In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 05 Oct 2010 15:20:49 -0700. Message-ID: Try asking Bill Thomasmeyer who was president of Virtual Microsystems from 1989-1995, which seems about the right time frame for this board. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From drb at msu.edu Tue Oct 5 17:55:37 2010 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Tue, 05 Oct 2010 18:55:37 -0400 Subject: EPAY DEC Qbus Z-80 In-Reply-To: (Your message of Tue, 05 Oct 2010 15:16:04 PDT.) <4CABA3A4.8030801@att.net> References: <4CABA3A4.8030801@att.net> Message-ID: <20101005225537.C0F1AA580D2@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > With my limited exposure to the DEC/PDP stuff, this looks strange... > Z-80 chips on a QBus card? Is it noteworthy? worth bidding on? > unusual? just plain junk? What would it work with/in /on? Last time one of these came to my attention (a month ago? and not sure which list I saw it on) it looked like these were hardware assist processors for CP/M emulation software that ran on the DEC CPU. De From lproven at gmail.com Tue Oct 5 17:55:51 2010 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2010 23:55:51 +0100 Subject: Voice recognition will never kill the keyboard was: Re:Evolutionof the Apple Mouse In-Reply-To: <00fe01cb64d9$bd8ebc00$f5fdf93e@user8459cef6fa> References: <4CA41FCD.6050004@neurotica.com> <4CA49503.9000108@gmail.com> <012a01cb6235$93e5c9d0$82165d0a@user8459cef6fa> <00fe01cb64d9$bd8ebc00$f5fdf93e@user8459cef6fa> Message-ID: On 5 October 2010 22:34, Andrew Burton wrote: > That depends. Wearing 3D glasses always gives me a headache after a few > minutes and I wear glasses (four-eyes!) anyway... so how would I wear 3D > glasses and still be able to see (clearly) what I am doing? (six-eyes?!) Which ones? The ones nVidia are using are LCD shutters, not polarising or coloured. Mind you, I did go forewarned wearing contact lenses. The issue of spectacle-wearers is one they must address - but the problem may go away as they find ways to do specs-less flatscreens that can show 3D. They're coming - some are already on sale and the Nintendo 3DS will bring it to millions quite soon. -- Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Oct 5 18:03:49 2010 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Tue, 05 Oct 2010 17:03:49 -0600 Subject: Voice recognition will never kill the keyboard was: Re:Evolutionof the Apple Mouse In-Reply-To: References: <4CA41FCD.6050004@neurotica.com> <4CA49503.9000108@gmail.com> <012a01cb6235$93e5c9d0$82165d0a@user8459cef6fa> <00fe01cb64d9$bd8ebc00$f5fdf93e@user8459cef6fa> Message-ID: <4CABAED5.5060203@jetnet.ab.ca> On 05/10/2010 4:55 PM, Liam Proven wrote: > Mind you, I did go forewarned wearing contact lenses. The issue of > spectacle-wearers is one they must address - but the problem may go > away as they find ways to do specs-less flatscreens that can show 3D. > They're coming - some are already on sale and the Nintendo 3DS will > bring it to millions quite soon. I guess now we can watch (but not for free) all the old B grade 3D movies from the 50's. Free TV is gone with the demise of TV broadcasting. From IanK at vulcan.com Tue Oct 5 18:46:33 2010 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2010 16:46:33 -0700 Subject: EPAY DEC Qbus Z-80 In-Reply-To: References: <4CABA3A4.8030801@att.net> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Mark Davidson > Sent: Tuesday, October 05, 2010 3:21 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: EPAY DEC Qbus Z-80 > > On Tue, Oct 5, 2010 at 3:16 PM, steve shumaker > wrote: > > With my limited exposure to the DEC/PDP stuff, this looks strange... > Z-80 > > chips on a QBus card? ? ?Is it noteworthy? ?worth bidding on? > unusual? > > just plain junk? What would it work with/in /on? > > > > item no 250693741192 > > >From what I can tell (and I'm sure others have more info than I do) > the board, made by Virtual Microsystems, was probably used in a CD-ROM > server. VM's products were based on InfoServers, so the board might > be from one of their server boxes. Of course, I'm just guessing... I > could be completely wrong. :) > > See http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-14019022.html for a bit of info > that I found. > > Mark It looks like a Unibus card to me - look at the silkscreen at the fingers. C-F sounds like a SPC-slot board. That being said, I still couldn't figure out anything about it, but it sure looks cool -- Ian From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Oct 5 22:28:51 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2010 20:28:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 3D (was: Voice recognition will never kill the keyboard was: Re:Evolutionof the Apple Mouse In-Reply-To: References: <4CA41FCD.6050004@neurotica.com> <4CA49503.9000108@gmail.com> <012a01cb6235$93e5c9d0$82165d0a@user8459cef6fa> <00fe01cb64d9$bd8ebc00$f5fdf93e@user8459cef6fa> Message-ID: <20101005201055.Y47641@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 5 Oct 2010, Liam Proven wrote: > Mind you, I did go forewarned wearing contact lenses. The issue of > spectacle-wearers is one they must address - but the problem may go > away as they find ways to do specs-less flatscreens that can show 3D. > They're coming - some are already on sale and the Nintendo 3DS will > bring it to millions quite soon. If they are not using specs, which method ARE they using to differentiate the two eye images? vertical lenticular screen face? 20 years ago, StereoGraphics in San Rafael was NOT getting rich on their "Crystal Eyes" LCD shutter glasses. They were using SGI workstations at 120Hz. The founder, Lenny Lipton, also claimed to be the original author of "Puff the magic dragon". -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From chris at mainecoon.com Tue Oct 5 22:33:41 2010 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Christian Kennedy) Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2010 20:33:41 -0700 Subject: EPAY DEC Qbus Z-80 In-Reply-To: <4CABA3A4.8030801@att.net> References: <4CABA3A4.8030801@att.net> Message-ID: <49F93D78-A7C8-4487-AD80-78309C42250D@mainecoon.com> On Oct 5, 2010, at 3:16 PM, steve shumaker wrote: > With my limited exposure to the DEC/PDP stuff, this looks strange... Z-80 chips on a QBus card? Is it noteworthy? worth bidding on? unusual? just plain junk? What would it work with/in /on? It's one of Virtual Microsystem's embedded processor boards. VMI made Qbus, Unibus and Nova (Data General) bus boards which allowed the execution of CM/P and MS-DOS (*not* PC-DOS) programs on DEC and DG hardware. The strangest of the bunch was a multiprocessor 68020-based embedded PICK system that I ended up laying code for sometime in the mid-80s. -- Chris Kennedy chris at mainecoon.com AF6AP http://www.mainecoon.com PGP KeyID 108DAB97 PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 "Mr. McKittrick, after careful consideration..." From IanK at vulcan.com Tue Oct 5 23:00:10 2010 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2010 21:00:10 -0700 Subject: EPAY DEC Qbus Z-80 In-Reply-To: <49F93D78-A7C8-4487-AD80-78309C42250D@mainecoon.com> References: <4CABA3A4.8030801@att.net> <49F93D78-A7C8-4487-AD80-78309C42250D@mainecoon.com> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Christian Kennedy > Sent: Tuesday, October 05, 2010 8:34 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: EPAY DEC Qbus Z-80 > > > On Oct 5, 2010, at 3:16 PM, steve shumaker wrote: > > > With my limited exposure to the DEC/PDP stuff, this looks strange... > Z-80 chips on a QBus card? Is it noteworthy? worth bidding on? > unusual? just plain junk? What would it work with/in /on? > > It's one of Virtual Microsystem's embedded processor boards. VMI made > Qbus, Unibus and Nova (Data General) bus boards which allowed the > execution of CM/P and MS-DOS (*not* PC-DOS) programs on DEC and DG > hardware. The strangest of the bunch was a multiprocessor 68020-based > embedded PICK system that I ended up laying code for sometime in the > mid-80s. > Chris, it sounds like you have some knowledge of these boards. Anything else you can share with its new owner? :-) I couldn't resist.... -- Ian From chris at mainecoon.com Tue Oct 5 23:32:47 2010 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Christian Kennedy) Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2010 21:32:47 -0700 Subject: EPAY DEC Qbus Z-80 In-Reply-To: References: <4CABA3A4.8030801@att.net> <49F93D78-A7C8-4487-AD80-78309C42250D@mainecoon.com> Message-ID: On Oct 5, 2010, at 9:00 PM, Ian King wrote: > Chris, it sounds like you have some knowledge of these boards. Anything else you can share with its new owner? :-) I couldn't resist.... -- Ian It's been just shy of a quarter-century so my memory on this is going to be a little rusty :P VMI was a small firm located in Berkeley, California which made a collection of embedded coprocessors that they sold as "Bridge Boards". A typical board had between two and four coprocessors and generally included serial and parallel hardware (I believe a number of Unibus boards ended up being sold to a firm that packaged them as print servers). Each system consisted of one or more bridge boards, host-side software and a board-side BIOS that fielded calls and interacted with the host-side software in order to perform keyboard, terminal and disk I/O. Sometime around 1986 or 87 VMI was purchased by Ross Microsystems; their dying gasp was a bridge board that connected to an external chassis in order to support AT cards. Generally speaking only well behaved applications that only tried to interact with the hardware through the BIOS were supported. The software for this stuff is probably lost forever. The Intel BIOS was written by John Hinkley who co-founded Ronin with me to build the Hurricane accelerators for the Amiga; he subsequently wrote Vistapro; he might have some leads. -- Chris Kennedy chris at mainecoon.com AF6AP http://www.mainecoon.com PGP KeyID 108DAB97 PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 "Mr. McKittrick, after careful consideration..." From silent700 at gmail.com Tue Oct 5 23:57:02 2010 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2010 00:57:02 -0400 Subject: Odd Voltage Requirements (was: TU55 an ebay) Message-ID: Here's an oddball, too: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=220676550260 42V, 50hz. Apparently, there were mains lines that delivered those values to special plugs in Russian schools. How would one go about powering such a device in the US? -- jht From rivie at ridgenet.net Wed Oct 6 00:10:09 2010 From: rivie at ridgenet.net (Roger Ivie) Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2010 22:10:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 3D (was: Voice recognition will never kill the keyboard was: Re:Evolutionof the Apple Mouse In-Reply-To: <20101005201055.Y47641@shell.lmi.net> References: <4CA41FCD.6050004@neurotica.com> <4CA49503.9000108@gmail.com> <012a01cb6235$93e5c9d0$82165d0a@user8459cef6fa> <00fe01cb64d9$bd8ebc00$f5fdf93e@user8459cef6fa> <20101005201055.Y47641@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 5 Oct 2010, Fred Cisin wrote: > > If they are not using specs, which method ARE they using to differentiate > the two eye images? vertical lenticular screen face? In addition to lenticular, folks are also doing a parallax barrier; essentially, you're looking at the screen through a striped mask, kind of like a sideways, inside-out Sony Trinitron. I'm not certain which tech the 3DS will be using. -- roger ivie rivie at ridgenet.net From cclist at sydex.com Wed Oct 6 00:16:27 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 05 Oct 2010 22:16:27 -0700 Subject: Odd Voltage Requirements (was: TU55 an ebay) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CABA3BB.21618.38E241@cclist.sydex.com> On 6 Oct 2010 at 0:57, Jason T wrote: > Here's an oddball, too: > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=220676550260 > > 42V, 50hz. Apparently, there were mains lines that delivered those > values to special plugs in Russian schools. How would one go about > powering such a device in the US? I suspect that this will work on 60Hz, so at the easiest, a Variac would do the trick. You could also find a power transformer or two that would do the job nicely, say a 24V and an 18V combination. --Chuck From rodsmallwood at btconnect.com Wed Oct 6 00:58:12 2010 From: rodsmallwood at btconnect.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2010 06:58:12 +0100 Subject: Looking for IBM 5250 TwinAx terminal... In-Reply-To: <4CAAC9C8.5060801@neurotica.com> References: <4CAA21AE.4030704@neurotica.com><4B8E7E4F9E0C4357B5611432F6E26B95@RodsDevSystem> <4CAAC9C8.5060801@neurotica.com> Message-ID: Well at least it's found a good home. Being a DEC man I know little about IBM systems except 6150 AIX boxes. Regards ? Rod Smallwood ? ? -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dave McGuire Sent: 05 October 2010 07:47 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Looking for IBM 5250 TwinAx terminal... On 10/5/10 2:01 AM, Rod Smallwood wrote: > Was it you who had the 370? If so what's the status on it? Yes, that's me. It's still right in the garage where we pulled it off the truck. It has been a very busy few months for me and I've not been able to get to it. I'm crossing my fingers for some time this fall. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From robin at hx-20.com Wed Oct 6 03:26:09 2010 From: robin at hx-20.com (Robin England) Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2010 09:26:09 +0100 Subject: IBM 5022 Message-ID: <29BE29CAD9DE4FBA95F218135FEACE27@AlienwareM15x> Hello Does anyone have a serviceable IBM 5022 disk drive unit, or perhaps have technical documentation on this drive that they would be prepared to scan and email? I have a single-platter disk pack (written in 1974) that I'd like to read. I believe it was written by a System/7. Am based in UK and US (MN). Thanks Robin From ragooman at gmail.com Wed Oct 6 08:14:09 2010 From: ragooman at gmail.com (Dan Roganti) Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2010 09:14:09 -0400 Subject: Odd Voltage Requirements (was: TU55 an ebay) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Oct 6, 2010 at 12:57 AM, Jason T wrote: > Here's an oddball, too: > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=220676550260 > > 42V, 50hz. Apparently, there were mains lines that delivered those > values to special plugs in Russian schools. How would one go about > powering such a device in the US? > > just use a Bally transformer out of a the MPU-35 system pinball game, the 43V tap is used for the coils - which has plenty of power - there's piles of them here - that calculator is not even half the power as a pinball game =Dan --http://www.vintagecomputer.net/ragooman/ From lproven at gmail.com Wed Oct 6 09:00:52 2010 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2010 15:00:52 +0100 Subject: 3D (was: Voice recognition will never kill the keyboard was: Re:Evolutionof the Apple Mouse In-Reply-To: References: <4CA41FCD.6050004@neurotica.com> <4CA49503.9000108@gmail.com> <012a01cb6235$93e5c9d0$82165d0a@user8459cef6fa> <00fe01cb64d9$bd8ebc00$f5fdf93e@user8459cef6fa> <20101005201055.Y47641@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On 6 October 2010 06:10, Roger Ivie wrote: > On Tue, 5 Oct 2010, Fred Cisin wrote: >> >> If they are not using specs, which method ARE they using to differentiate >> the two eye images? ? ? vertical lenticular screen face? > > In addition to lenticular, folks are also doing a parallax barrier; > essentially, you're looking at the screen through a striped mask, kind of > like a sideways, inside-out Sony Trinitron. > > I'm not certain which tech the 3DS will be using. I believe so. A few links for those inclined to go digging: http://www.gizmag.com/sharp-3d-glasses-free-touchscreen/14716/ http://news.cnet.com/2100-1040-978499.html http://www.tomsguide.com/us/Nintendo-3DS-3D-Glasses-DS,news-6237.html -- Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From cclist at sydex.com Wed Oct 6 11:52:40 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 06 Oct 2010 09:52:40 -0700 Subject: 3D (was: Voice recognition will never kill the keyboard was: Re:Evolutionof the Apple Mouse In-Reply-To: References: , , Message-ID: <4CAC46E8.26229.46A8ED@cclist.sydex.com> Not everyone can see the 3D effect (and it's apparently a sizeable portion of the audience): http://www.practical-home-theater-guide.com/3d-tv-1.html For others, 3D viewing results in eyestrain and headaches. I'll happily take a well-made production with a good plot and acting any day to a "Bwana Devil" or "Cat-Women of the Moon". 3D motion pictures have been around for nearly a century. Every once in awhile the technology is resurrected and then abandoned. Quality writing, production and acting is timeless. --Chuck From tshoppa at wmata.com Wed Oct 6 12:14:26 2010 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim) Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2010 13:14:26 -0400 Subject: EPAY DEC Qbus Z-80 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Steve asks: > With my limited exposure to the DEC/PDP stuff, this looks strange... > Z-80 chips on a QBus card? Is it noteworthy? worth bidding on? > unusual? just plain junk? What would it work with/in /on? > item no 250693741192 These were circa early 80's and this board was 4 CP/M systems. I think there were single and double boards too. There were some bizarre hooks between the CP/M BIOS and the Unibus (usually VAX/VMS... but there may have been others) filesystems that I never really grokked. The relationship to VMS printers was more straightforward. But yeah, you need some specialized drivers etc. probably not updated since VMS 3.x to use this. We had these in the 80's and the secretaries would connect to the VAX, then connect to the embedded CP/M system, and edit files using CP/M word processor, then print to printers on the VAX. Pretty convoluted. Later on the same secretaries used an emulated IBM PC inside the VAX. Tim. From legalize at xmission.com Wed Oct 6 12:18:38 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 06 Oct 2010 11:18:38 -0600 Subject: capacitor aging claim Message-ID: On alt.sys.pdp11 it was recently claimed: > Lack of use speeds up deterioration of things like capacitors > (especially electrolytics). Now I know that capacitors tend to the component most likely to fail on a piece of vintage equipment, but this is the first time I recall seeing it claimed that lack of use accelerates deterioriation of capacitors. Comments? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From auringer at tds.net Wed Oct 6 12:19:43 2010 From: auringer at tds.net (auringer tds.net) Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2010 12:19:43 -0500 Subject: Royal calculator available Message-ID: For the calculator collector: Royal 8HPD battery operated handheld printing calculator. It seems to be fully functional. Comes with two rolls of paper. I will accept the first decent offer above shipping costs from 53714. See a picture here: http://www.flickr.com/photos/jja572/sets/72157625108629242 -Jon Jon Auringer From thomas.gardner at sbcglobal.net Wed Oct 6 12:22:46 2010 From: thomas.gardner at sbcglobal.net (Tom Gardner) Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2010 10:22:46 -0700 Subject: Mike Ross Contact Info In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0DE0F010CB2C456DB61817CA25AA0A13@tegp4> If Mike is still on this mail list: yr email at mikecorestoreorg has been bouncing for about a week now, with a "Sorry, I wasn't able to establish an SMTP connection. (#4.4.1) message. Does anyone have an alternate email address for Mike? Tom From lproven at gmail.com Wed Oct 6 12:30:41 2010 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2010 18:30:41 +0100 Subject: 3D (was: Voice recognition will never kill the keyboard was: Re:Evolutionof the Apple Mouse In-Reply-To: <4CAC46E8.26229.46A8ED@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4CAC46E8.26229.46A8ED@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On 6 October 2010 17:52, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Not everyone can see the 3D effect (and it's apparently a sizeable > portion of the audience): > > http://www.practical-home-theater-guide.com/3d-tv-1.html > > For others, 3D viewing results in eyestrain and headaches. > > I'll happily take a well-made production with a good plot and acting > any day to a "Bwana Devil" or "Cat-Women of the Moon". > > 3D motion pictures have been around for nearly a century. ?Every once > in awhile the technology is resurrected and then abandoned. > > Quality writing, production and acting is timeless. Whilst this is undoubtedly true, I was originally talking about 3D videogames, not TV or movies. It works quite well in the cinema - I saw Beowulf, Avatar and Coraline in this format and it's highly effective, especially if not gratuitously over-used. On domestic TV, well, I am not so sure - I think people are more likely to be multitasking TV-watching with other tasks, so neither specs not a very rigid seating position would work. But for computers and computer gaming, where people typically sit right in front of the screen, unmoving, and 1 screen per person is the rule, it seems to have far fewer technical obstacles. For console gaming, not so much, but on the PC, I can see it catching on. Serious gamers are already paying ?300-?400 for dedicated 3D video cards, and in many cases, pairs of them; the incremental cost of a special monitor and glasses might be accepted readily. -- Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From auringer at tds.net Wed Oct 6 12:34:07 2010 From: auringer at tds.net (auringer tds.net) Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2010 12:34:07 -0500 Subject: Manuals for printers & plotters available Message-ID: I have the following manuals that I am willing to save from the recycle bin, if they are worth something to someone. Offers above shipping cost will be required to make it worth my time. All are in good condition, unless otherwise noted. HP 7580B, 7585B and 7586B Drafting plotters Operators manual HP 7580B, 7585B and 7586B Drafting plotters Interfacing and Programming manual (fair condition) Citizen MSP-40/45 User's Manual Dataproducts Model 9030/9040 Operating Guide Comrex ComRiter IIE User's Guide Star Gemini-10X/15X User's Manual Panasonic KX-P3151 Operating Instructions Star radix-10 pc radix-15 pc Users's Manual (good condition w/writing on cover) Mannesmann Tally Spirit-80 Operator's Manual Star Gemini-15 Operation Manual [preliminary] (photocopy, fair condition) -Jon From auringer at tds.net Wed Oct 6 12:35:47 2010 From: auringer at tds.net (auringer tds.net) Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2010 12:35:47 -0500 Subject: Manuals for printers & plotters available (omission) Message-ID: I neglected to mention that shipping is from 53714. -Jon From cclist at sydex.com Wed Oct 6 12:36:13 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 06 Oct 2010 10:36:13 -0700 Subject: capacitor aging claim In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CAC511D.5382.6E8A08@cclist.sydex.com> On 6 Oct 2010 at 11:18, Richard wrote: > On alt.sys.pdp11 it was recently claimed: > > > Lack of use speeds up deterioration of things like capacitors > > (especially electrolytics). > > Now I know that capacitors tend to the component most likely to fail > on a piece of vintage equipment, but this is the first time I recall > seeing it claimed that lack of use accelerates deterioriation of > capacitors. That is certainly true of wet-electrolyte aluminum-foil capacitors, but they can be brought back by "reforming". However, ESR is a big problem with newer equipment, causing heating of the contents of an electrolytic and once those go, they're gone. So you're damned if you don't and damned if you do. All in all, I'd think that age is the big enemy, causing things to dry out, plastics to crack and conductors to corrode. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Wed Oct 6 12:41:14 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 06 Oct 2010 10:41:14 -0700 Subject: 3D (was: Voice recognition will never kill the keyboard was: Re:Evolutionof the Apple Mouse In-Reply-To: References: , <4CAC46E8.26229.46A8ED@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4CAC524A.26830.73200B@cclist.sydex.com> On 6 Oct 2010 at 18:30, Liam Proven wrote: > Whilst this is undoubtedly true, I was originally talking about 3D > videogames, not TV or movies. Video and computer gaming has never held interest to me. Wrong generation--to me, it seems like a fabulous waste of time that could be better spent doing something else. So I'm not qualified to comment on games. Besides, I have terrible depth perception. :) --Chuck From auringer at tds.net Wed Oct 6 12:43:34 2010 From: auringer at tds.net (auringer tds.net) Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2010 12:43:34 -0500 Subject: IKOS system manual Message-ID: I have a User's Guide for the "IKOS Systems AT Host", which is apparently a logic validation system. It happens to be in a binder labeled Graphics Plus GP-220 from Northwest Digital Systems. Both are in good condition. If either of these items is of interest, make me an offer to keep it from the recycle bin. Shipping will be from 53714 -Jon From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Oct 6 14:05:17 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2010 15:05:17 -0400 Subject: Anyone have docs for a Digital Engineering Retro-Graphics ("VT640") board? Message-ID: Hi, All, Jack Rubin sent me a Retro-Graphics upgrade board and cage that seem to have had an unpleasant interaction with mud daubers (I only have the boards, but the report is that the PSU of its former host did not survive). I'd like to clean an resurrect it, and I'd like to find any tech docs to go with. The closest I've found so far is a manual on Bitsavers for a version of the product for an ADM-3A terminal: http://computer-refuge.org/bitsavers/pdf/digitalEngineering/RG-512_Users_Man_1980.pdf I found a query from John Wilson (D-Bit) some months back where he's seeking a programmers' manual, so it appears there are more questors than answers. Does anyone have anything on this device? It's a DEC-quad-height-sized card, with connectors appropriate for a VT100 enclosure, a few cables (PSU and data to/from the main VT100 board) and a metal cage, possibly just the standard DEC cage from a VT100. I think I can see how to plug it all in, but beyond cleaning and checking for dead shorts, I'd like to know something about it before I apply voltage. Some very nice photos can be found here: http://www.fairlightcmi.com/VT640-board-set-eBay-photos.html Googling has so far only returned references to its use with the Synclavier II synthesizer (and its modern replacement, a "VT640" emulator for MacOS X) and various science and engineering apps from the heyday of VMS and dumb terminals. No technical data beyond a few control sequences. I know how to drive a Tektronix 4000-series graphics terminal (and have some nice Tek files from some recent research on my Tek 4105), but I'm really looking for hardware docs more than just lists of command sequences. Thanks for any assistance -ethan From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Wed Oct 6 14:16:16 2010 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2010 21:16:16 +0200 Subject: Spec of Memory for a DEC Alpha 433au In-Reply-To: <009501cb62d7$a23d05f0$e6b711d0$@ntlworld.com> References: <009501cb62d7$a23d05f0$e6b711d0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <20101006211616.82a5de64.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Sun, 3 Oct 2010 09:47:36 +0100 "Rob Jarratt" wrote: > Can anyone tell me the required spec? I am not sure about unbuffered vs. registered. It needs PC83 (!) ECC SDRAM that is CL2 capable, two identical modules per bank, max. 256 MB per DIMM. I just threw in 256 MB PC133 ECC DIMMs from a PeeCee supplier when PC133 was curent technology and they worked. -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Oct 6 14:42:32 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2010 15:42:32 -0400 Subject: capacitor aging claim In-Reply-To: <4CAC511D.5382.6E8A08@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4CAC511D.5382.6E8A08@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > That is certainly true of wet-electrolyte aluminum-foil capacitors, > but they can be brought back by "reforming". ?However, ESR is a big > problem with newer equipment, causing heating of the contents of an > electrolytic and once those go, they're gone. > > So you're damned if you don't and damned if you do. > > All in all, I'd think that age is the big enemy, causing things to > dry out, plastics to crack and conductors to corrode. I suspect that most big old electrolytics found in older computers mainly die from the seals breaking and moisture getting in, just as capacitors of the 1940s (even micas) are fond of doing. No amount of reforming will fix this problem. -- Will From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Oct 6 13:27:17 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2010 19:27:17 +0100 (BST) Subject: TU55 an ebay In-Reply-To: <837A8B861C0F42078FBB8637823A408D@ANTONIOPC> from "arcarlini@iee.org" at Oct 5, 10 10:55:49 pm Message-ID: > I can't speak for Germany but in the UK 110V/50Hz is often used in > factories > and building sites etc. (on building sites look for those > car-battery-sized-ish > yellow transformer boxes). I seem to remember that it's a legal requirement that portable power tools (things like electtic drills) used on building site have to be 110V, run from an isoalting transformer. The output of the transformer is acutally centre-tapped to earth (it's 55-0-55V AC), so in the event of insualtion breakdown, the worst shock you can receive is 55V, which is unlikely to be fatal. > > Not that I'd necessarily expect to see a TU55 on a building site (or > even on > a factory floor) but the voltage/frequency combination is not actually > outlandish. As I mentioned, there is a differnece between the output of those transformers and normal US mains. The fornmer has the centre tap gorudned, the later has one side grounded. Most equipment shouldn't mind about that (and I suspect the TU55 is OK), but I have seen sensitive analogue measuring equipment with different transformer primary wiring for centre-tapped-to-ground and one-side-groudned mains. Apparently it slightly reduces noise pickup. Having got one of those transformers to run portable power tools, one of the first things I did was make up a cable with a US socket on one end and a plug to fit the trasnformer output (I still call it BS4343, I can;'t rememebr the CEN number) on the other. Very useful for testing US main adapters, etc. It's not a TU55, I know, but the PC04 and PC05 all had 110V motors in the punches. The ones sold in Europe were designed to run on 50Hz mains (I don;t know if there's a pulley/belt change, or if like the HP2748 reader they just ran slower over here), and came with a step-down transformer. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Oct 6 13:34:26 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2010 19:34:26 +0100 (BST) Subject: 3D (was: Voice recognition will never kill the keyboard was: In-Reply-To: <20101005201055.Y47641@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Oct 5, 10 08:28:51 pm Message-ID: > 20 years ago, StereoGraphics in San Rafael was NOT getting rich on their > "Crystal Eyes" LCD shutter glasses. They were using SGI workstations at Around then (I think it was 1988)(, I got to try a 3D imaging system using LCD shutter spectacles. The flicker drove me mad (it was very noticeable), no way could I have worked with that for very long. I assume they've increased the frame rate by now. I do have a couple of sets of LED spectacles and the (fairly simple) control unit for use with muy E&S PS390. One day I must get round to getting all that working again... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Oct 6 13:39:44 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2010 19:39:44 +0100 (BST) Subject: Odd Voltage Requirements (was: TU55 an ebay) In-Reply-To: from "Jason T" at Oct 6, 10 00:57:02 am Message-ID: > > Here's an oddball, too: > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=220676550260 > > 42V, 50hz. Apparently, there were mains lines that delivered those > values to special plugs in Russian schools. How would one go about > powering such a device in the US? What is the device? In particular, is it going to care about the mains frequency. If it caould run at 42V 60Hz, you could use a simple step-down transofrmer to run it, I would recomend a double-wound (isolating) transformer, since an autotransformer, could end up putting the device 110V above ground, and I;d not trust the insulation to stand that. If it really does require 50Hzm then you basically either have to use a motor-generator set or rectify the US mains to get DC and re-chop it at 50Hz. You mightm for example, be abke to use one of the better (sine-wave output) Europena-market inverters to get 'mains' from a car battery (that would give you 230V, 50Hz) and a step-down transoformer. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Oct 6 13:44:33 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2010 19:44:33 +0100 (BST) Subject: Odd Voltage Requirements (was: TU55 an ebay) In-Reply-To: from "Dan Roganti" at Oct 6, 10 09:14:09 am Message-ID: > > Here's an oddball, too: > > > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=220676550260 > > > > 42V, 50hz. Apparently, there were mains lines that delivered those > > values to special plugs in Russian schools. How would one go about > > powering such a device in the US? > > > > > just use a Bally transformer out of a the MPU-35 system pinball game, the > 43V tap is used for the coils - which has plenty of power - there's piles of > them here - that calculator is not even half the power as a pinball game Another posibility is to modify the devicec to work on whatever supply you have. What does itdo with that AC input? If it feeds it into a tranformer, what voltages come out of that? You may be able to replace the transformer with one that takes your mains input. I've done this several times to get US equipment running over here. -tony From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Wed Oct 6 15:43:27 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2010 17:43:27 -0300 Subject: capacitor aging claim References: <4CAC511D.5382.6E8A08@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <0c4a01cb6598$1174e920$cf9858bb@portajara> >I suspect that most big old electrolytics found in older computers >mainly die from the seals breaking and moisture getting in, just as >capacitors of the 1940s (even micas) are fond of doing. No amount of >reforming will fix this problem. Never forget the tantalum ones... :o) From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Oct 6 16:02:42 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2010 14:02:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 3D (was: Voice recognition will never kill the keyboard was: In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20101006135208.U76536@shell.lmi.net> > > 20 years ago, StereoGraphics in San Rafael was NOT getting rich on their > > "Crystal Eyes" LCD shutter glasses. They were using SGI workstations at On Wed, 6 Oct 2010, Tony Duell wrote: > Around then (I think it was 1988)(, I got to try a 3D imaging system > using LCD shutter spectacles. The flicker drove me mad (it was very > noticeable), no way could I have worked with that for very long. I > assume they've increased the frame rate by now. There seems to be a lot of variation in how much flicker people can or will put up with. That's why SG went for the 120Hz, instead of the [at that time] much more common 60Hz. Do British TVs have a 50Hz flicker? SGs financial problems were not primarily technical. They arose from such behaviors as listing investments as "income", and a relaxed "California style" corporate culture that included "working from home" by employees with jobs inappropriate for that, such as receptionist. > I do have a couple of sets of LED spectacles and the (fairly simple) > control unit for use with muy E&S PS390. One day I must get round to > getting all that working again... OK, I understand the principle behind LCD shutter glasses. And they certainly were a major step up from Lipton's original spinning wheel. But how do LED spectacles work? -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Oct 6 16:11:55 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2010 14:11:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Odd Voltage Requirements (was: TU55 an ebay) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20101006140423.H76536@shell.lmi.net> > > > 42V, 50hz. Apparently, there were mains lines that delivered those > > > values to special plugs in Russian schools. How would one go about > > > powering such a device in the US? On Wed, 6 Oct 2010, Tony Duell wrote: > Another posibility is to modify the devicec to work on whatever supply > you have. What does itdo with that AC input? If it feeds it into a > tranformer, what voltages come out of that? You may be able to replace > the transformer with one that takes your mains input. > I've done this several times to get US equipment running over here. I suppose that is better than a motor turning a generator, or a power supply to convert 110V 60Hz to 12VDC, connected to an inverter that takes 12VDC, and outputs 42V 50Hz, which goes into the device's power supply that outputs 12VDC? :-) (although a few car batteries would smooth out the 12V, and provide a crude UPS) -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From legalize at xmission.com Wed Oct 6 16:15:04 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 06 Oct 2010 15:15:04 -0600 Subject: capacitor aging claim In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 06 Oct 2010 15:42:32 -0400. Message-ID: In article , William Donzelli writes: > > That is certainly true of wet-electrolyte aluminum-foil capacitors, > > but they can be brought back by "reforming". However, ESR is a big > > problem with newer equipment, causing heating of the contents of an > > electrolytic and once those go, they're gone. > > > > So you're damned if you don't and damned if you do. > > > > All in all, I'd think that age is the big enemy, causing things to > > dry out, plastics to crack and conductors to corrode. > > I suspect that most big old electrolytics found in older computers > mainly die from the seals breaking and moisture getting in, just as > capacitors of the 1940s (even micas) are fond of doing. No amount of > reforming will fix this problem. To add some specifics to the claim: it was in reference to the power supply on a Terak workstation. (PDP-11 with a monochrome frame buffer, see pics here: and docs here: . I believe this system has a simple linear power supply design, but bitsavers doesn't have schematics online and I'm away from my unit to inspect it right now. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From evan at snarc.net Wed Oct 6 16:42:16 2010 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Wed, 06 Oct 2010 17:42:16 -0400 Subject: Another huge collection for sale Message-ID: <4CACED38.2000900@snarc.net> See ebay # 170546160874 .... no affiliation. (A few people asked me if this is Sellam's. The answer is no.) From legalize at xmission.com Wed Oct 6 17:50:48 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 06 Oct 2010 16:50:48 -0600 Subject: Another huge collection for sale In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 06 Oct 2010 17:42:16 -0400. <4CACED38.2000900@snarc.net> Message-ID: In article <4CACED38.2000900 at snarc.net>, Evan Koblentz writes: > See ebay # 170546160874 .... no affiliation. All microcomputer stuff that was made in the gazillions of units quantities. I'm not sure how the owner determined that the value is "$75K" to collectors. If you're going to list something for more than $1,000 on ebay, the least you could do is make sure that the listing is complete when you post it, particularly if you've got only ~30 hours left on the listing. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From pat at computer-refuge.org Wed Oct 6 19:32:48 2010 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2010 20:32:48 -0400 Subject: Odd Voltage Requirements (was: TU55 an ebay) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201010062032.49065.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Wednesday, October 06, 2010, Tony Duell wrote: > > Here's an oddball, too: > > > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=220676550260 > > > > 42V, 50hz. Apparently, there were mains lines that delivered those > > values to special plugs in Russian schools. How would one go about > > powering such a device in the US? > > What is the device? It's a 1990 or so (Russian) desktop calculator. Not like an HP "Calculator" computer, but a slightly more than 4-function calculator. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From lproven at gmail.com Wed Oct 6 20:07:14 2010 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2010 02:07:14 +0100 Subject: 3D (was: Voice recognition will never kill the keyboard was: In-Reply-To: References: <20101005201055.Y47641@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On 6 October 2010 19:34, Tony Duell wrote: >> 20 years ago, StereoGraphics in San Rafael was NOT getting rich on their >> "Crystal Eyes" LCD shutter glasses. ?They were using SGI workstations at > > Around then (I think it was 1988)(, I got to try a 3D imaging system > using LCD shutter spectacles. The flicker drove me mad (it was very > noticeable), no way could I have worked with that for very long. I > assume they've increased the frame rate by now. > > I do have a couple of sets of LED spectacles and the (fairly simple) > control unit for use with muy E&S PS390. One day I must get round to > getting all that working again... nVidia's setup is a 120Hz screen, ergo, I presume, 60Hz shuttering. Flicker was rarely noticeable, but then, I am not at all sensitive to such things. I suppose the difference is now that any games-capable recent nVidia card will do it & the bundle of wireless specs (estimate battery life is on the other of months between recharges) and screen is ?250-300 - for a 24" widescreen. I am guessing 20Y ago, you could have added at least 1 zero on the end of that... -- Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Oct 6 20:27:56 2010 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 06 Oct 2010 21:27:56 -0400 Subject: 3D In-Reply-To: References: <20101005201055.Y47641@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4CAD221C.7010606@gmail.com> Liam Proven wrote: > I suppose the difference is now that any games-capable recent nVidia > card will do it& the bundle of wireless specs (estimate battery life > is on the other of months between recharges) and screen is ?250-300 - > for a 24" widescreen. I am guessing 20Y ago, you could have added at > least 1 zero on the end of that... Could you even *get* a monitor that could do high-res @120Hz twenty years ago? For *any* amount of money? Peace... Sridhar From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Oct 6 20:51:22 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2010 18:51:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 3D In-Reply-To: <4CAD221C.7010606@gmail.com> References: <20101005201055.Y47641@shell.lmi.net> <4CAD221C.7010606@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20101006184149.J81353@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 6 Oct 2010, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Could you even *get* a monitor that could do high-res @120Hz twenty > years ago? For *any* amount of money? Depends on your definition of "high-res". Silicon Graphics certainly had megapixel and higher for cad work, etc. For PC, though, "Wyse WY-700"/"Amdek 1280" at 1280 x 800 monochrome was state of the art, and "super-VGA" was moving upwards from 800 x 600. Twenty-FIVE years ago, EGA was considered hot. THIRTY years ago, CCTV monitors and home TV sets. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Oct 6 21:33:43 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2010 19:33:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 3D (was: Voice recognition will never kill the keyboard was: In-Reply-To: from Tony Duell at "Oct 6, 10 07:34:26 pm" Message-ID: <201010070233.o972Xhsc013904@floodgap.com> > > 20 years ago, StereoGraphics in San Rafael was NOT getting rich on their > > "Crystal Eyes" LCD shutter glasses. They were using SGI workstations at > > Around then (I think it was 1988)(, I got to try a 3D imaging system > using LCD shutter spectacles. The flicker drove me mad (it was very > noticeable), no way could I have worked with that for very long. I > assume they've increased the frame rate by now. I'm sensitive to any refresh rate under 85Hz (even 72 and 75 give me eyestrain after awhile), so I've assiduously avoided any spectacle-based 3D. The lenticular methods look interesting, but I'm reserving judgment. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- What's another word for thesaurus? ----------------------------------------- From brianlanning at gmail.com Wed Oct 6 17:18:28 2010 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2010 17:18:28 -0500 Subject: An interesting isa card Message-ID: I just picked up one of these: http://www.berkprod.com/Product_Web_Pages/isa_pc_watchdog.aspx from ebay for $7. It looks like it watches the machine for locked up software, then presses the reset button for you. What else can I do with this? What's the db-9 port for? brian From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Wed Oct 6 22:53:19 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2010 00:53:19 -0300 Subject: An interesting isa card References: Message-ID: <0f0f01cb65d3$3280d580$cf9858bb@portajara> > from ebay for $7. It looks like it watches the machine for locked up > software, then presses the reset button for you. What else can I do > with this? What's the db-9 port for? (from the site you put here) Relay contacts available on screw terminals, a DB-9 connector, and an internal header on the board. From pat at computer-refuge.org Wed Oct 6 22:54:19 2010 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2010 23:54:19 -0400 Subject: An interesting isa card In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201010062354.19797.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Wednesday, October 06, 2010, Brian Lanning wrote: > I just picked up one of these: > > http://www.berkprod.com/Product_Web_Pages/isa_pc_watchdog.aspx > > from ebay for $7. It looks like it watches the machine for locked up > software, then presses the reset button for you. What else can I do > with this? What's the db-9 port for? From the page you linked to: "Relay contacts available on screw terminals, a DB-9 connector, and an internal header on the board." I'm guessing it's so you can connect the on-board relay to something external to the machine. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Wed Oct 6 23:14:56 2010 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2010 21:14:56 -0700 Subject: An interesting isa card In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 2010 Oct 6, at 3:18 PM, Brian Lanning wrote: > I just picked up one of these: > > http://www.berkprod.com/Product_Web_Pages/isa_pc_watchdog.aspx > > from ebay for $7. It looks like it watches the machine for locked up > software, then presses the reset button for you. What else can I do > with this? What's the db-9 port for? Did you miss the manual and software downloads on the web page? It lists the pinout for the DB-9 and has lots of other details. From cclist at sydex.com Wed Oct 6 23:38:38 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 06 Oct 2010 21:38:38 -0700 Subject: An interesting isa card In-Reply-To: <0f0f01cb65d3$3280d580$cf9858bb@portajara> References: , <0f0f01cb65d3$3280d580$cf9858bb@portajara> Message-ID: <4CACEC5E.9776.2CD0119@cclist.sydex.com> On 7 Oct 2010 at 0:53, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > > from ebay for $7. It looks like it watches the machine for locked > > up software, then presses the reset button for you. Did you get the temperature option? I note that they talk about the NMI option, which can be set to provide an NMI about half-second before a reboot. The problem with these things are that if you have some sort of error condition, the system will keep resetting itself and slamming into the error that caused the reset initially. Perhaps you can have an application set up a nonvolatile status file somewhere (it would be nice if the card furnished this) so that you could determine where in the whole affair that the reset kicked in and perhaps take some remedial action, such as discarding a troublesome input or transaction. --Chuck From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Oct 6 23:57:05 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2010 00:57:05 -0400 Subject: 3D In-Reply-To: <20101006184149.J81353@shell.lmi.net> References: <20101005201055.Y47641@shell.lmi.net> <4CAD221C.7010606@gmail.com> <20101006184149.J81353@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: > Depends on your definition of "high-res". I think 120 Hz refresh is the issue. -- Will From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Wed Oct 6 23:57:10 2010 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2010 21:57:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: P112 pre-order deadline Message-ID: The deadline for pre-ordering a P112 kit, October 11, is approaching. I need to have 35 pre-orders before I can go ahead and have the boards made. I've only been able to pre-sell twelve kits. If I can't get 24 more kits sold by then, I'll have to cancel the project. I don't have the spare cash to finance the project entirely on my own. For those who are curious: I set the cutoff to October 11 because that's 60 days after the first order was placed. I can refund Paypal payments and get the fee back only within that window. The minimum of 35 pre-orders was chosen because for that number, I'll have the money to have 100 boards made and get parts for 35 kits. From that point on, the process becomes self-sustaining. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Oct 7 00:02:02 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2010 22:02:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 3D In-Reply-To: References: <20101005201055.Y47641@shell.lmi.net> <4CAD221C.7010606@gmail.com> <20101006184149.J81353@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20101006215856.R87226@shell.lmi.net> > > Depends on your definition of "high-res". On Thu, 7 Oct 2010, William Donzelli wrote: > I think 120 Hz refresh is the issue. 20 years ago, SGI. There probably were others, but SGI "defined" that market. Earlier than that, I vaguely remember that during a Siggraph meeting at Moscone center, one of the street vendors had "Hi-res" root beer. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From doug at stillhq.com Thu Oct 7 05:47:21 2010 From: doug at stillhq.com (Doug Jackson) Date: Thu, 07 Oct 2010 21:47:21 +1100 Subject: An interesting isa card In-Reply-To: <4CACEC5E.9776.2CD0119@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <0f0f01cb65d3$3280d580$cf9858bb@portajara> <4CACEC5E.9776.2CD0119@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4CADA539.4020804@stillhq.com> Naaaaah, It is *exactly what the average windows server needs.. (duck!) Doug Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 7 Oct 2010 at 0:53, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > > >>> from ebay for $7. It looks like it watches the machine for locked >>> up software, then presses the reset button for you. >>> > > Did you get the temperature option? > > I note that they talk about the NMI option, which can be set to > provide an NMI about half-second before a reboot. > > The problem with these things are that if you have some sort of error > condition, the system will keep resetting itself and slamming into > the error that caused the reset initially. Perhaps you can have an > application set up a nonvolatile status file somewhere (it would be > nice if the card furnished this) so that you could determine where in > the whole affair that the reset kicked in and perhaps take some > remedial action, such as discarding a troublesome input or > transaction. > > --Chuck > > > > > > From brianlanning at gmail.com Thu Oct 7 06:17:37 2010 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2010 06:17:37 -0500 Subject: An interesting isa card In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I was in sort of a hurry. I saw the driver image, but not the manual. Although now it seems ovbious to me that they would have that. Old-timer's disease I guess. On Wed, Oct 6, 2010 at 11:14 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > On 2010 Oct 6, at 3:18 PM, Brian Lanning wrote: >> I just picked up one of these: >> >> http://www.berkprod.com/Product_Web_Pages/isa_pc_watchdog.aspx >> >> from ebay for $7. ?It looks like it watches the machine for locked up >> software, then presses the reset button for you. ?What else can I do >> with this? ?What's the db-9 port for? > > Did you miss the manual and software downloads on the web page? > It lists the pinout for the DB-9 and has lots of other details. > > From brianlanning at gmail.com Thu Oct 7 06:18:41 2010 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2010 06:18:41 -0500 Subject: An interesting isa card In-Reply-To: <4CADA539.4020804@stillhq.com> References: <0f0f01cb65d3$3280d580$cf9858bb@portajara> <4CACEC5E.9776.2CD0119@cclist.sydex.com> <4CADA539.4020804@stillhq.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Oct 7, 2010 at 5:47 AM, Doug Jackson wrote: > Naaaaah, > > It is *exactly what the average windows server needs.. > > (duck!) > > Doug They even mention the blue screed of death specifically. :-D brian From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Thu Oct 7 07:28:51 2010 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 07 Oct 2010 07:28:51 -0500 Subject: 3D In-Reply-To: <20101006215856.R87226@shell.lmi.net> References: <20101005201055.Y47641@shell.lmi.net> <4CAD221C.7010606@gmail.com> <20101006184149.J81353@shell.lmi.net> <20101006215856.R87226@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4CADBD03.9010909@gmail.com> Fred Cisin wrote: >>> Depends on your definition of "high-res". > > On Thu, 7 Oct 2010, William Donzelli wrote: >> I think 120 Hz refresh is the issue. > > 20 years ago, SGI. > There probably were others, but SGI "defined" that market. Were Barco around then? I seem to recall them a decade or so ago making displays with very high resolutions for simulation and medical use, but I don't know at what point they got into that game. From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Oct 7 08:26:28 2010 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Thu, 07 Oct 2010 08:26:28 -0500 Subject: capacitor aging claim In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201010071328.o97DSiIH038757@billY.EZWIND.NET> At 04:15 PM 10/6/2010, Richard wrote: >To add some specifics to the claim: it was in reference to the power >supply on a Terak workstation. (PDP-11 with a monochrome frame >buffer, see pics here: >and docs here: . I've suspected the power supplies in my non-functional Teraks, too. I think I have a spare power supply, too, and had email contact with one of the Terak engineers once upon a time. - John From lproven at gmail.com Thu Oct 7 08:45:59 2010 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2010 14:45:59 +0100 Subject: An interesting development in vintage system emulators Message-ID: I (re-)discovered a remarkable tool last week, which absorbed a day and a bit. Even if you're not interested in the ZX Spectrum, I think it's worth a look. It's called BASin. There's no good homepage for it, alas. The current "official" one is here but it contains little content: http://sites.google.com/site/pauldunn/ There's also a blog: http://zxdunny.wordpress.com/ You can download it here (although v14c is not a very current version): http://www.worldofspectrum.org/emulators.html The latest stable version I've been able to find mention of is 14d - you can see a record of its deletion in the site activity page of the GooglePages site. I've not managed to find a download of it, though. There was an experimental build, 15.6, which I found a download of somewhere - just the binary, no installer or other resources. Past the EXE on top of the EXE of an installed copy of 14c and it works, though. A little more (obsolete) info: http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.sinclair/msg/4eeb4ffc8725beec?pli=1 Essentially, it's a Spectrum emulator for Windows, reworked so that the display and the BASIC editor are 2 separate windows. One is a proper native Sinclair display, with attribute clash and all the other horrors that make Speccy fans nostalgic. The other is a Windows window, in which you get a 128K Spectrum-style editor - typed keywords rather than arcane keystrokes to enter keywords in a single keypress, but with modern Windows niceties: cut & paste, a ruler, a syntax helper, bracket matching, error messages as dialogue boxes with verbose text, line-by-line execution tracing, variable checkpoints, etc. etc. You can set the speed of the emulator, so you need not wait hours to see what a real 3.5MHz Spectrum would do - you can run stuff at an emulated 55MHz (on my PC) to see if it works, then slow it down to real speed to see what genuine hardware would do. The Help file contains the entire Sinclair manual turned into a modern hyperlinked Help system, along with program help. You can zoom the display, change the fonts used in the editor and so on. Files can be loaded and saved into the native Windows filesystem using the menus, but the emulator can still handle cassette-tape images and so on. It is a really pleasant environment to work in: you get the pleasure of working in the old environment, but also the facilities of Windows. It may not encompass all the very best of both worlds, but it is the closest I've ever seen. I really like the way it merges the fun of playing around with an emulated 1980s 8-bit environment with the luxuries of a modern GUI OS. Trying to write code with an emulated Spectrum brings back many of the horrors of working on those machines for real - lousy editors, tiny screens, poor file-storage, instability, slowness, etc. It strikes me that there's no need for this concept to be limited to the Spectrum, although that happens to be my favourite 8-bit machine & the one I'm far and away most familiar with. It would be an interesting way for emulators of almost any vintage system to develop - separating display and code editor, enhancing the editor with modern native-OS facilities while keeping the classic execution and display environment. It might be a little less applicable to text-only terminal-based OSs, but not exclusively so, I think. I'd love to see such an environment for a whole load of the old graphics-oriented 8-bit home computers of the 1980s, though. I'm sure some people would consider it heresy to pollute a classic platform with modernities, but it strikes me as a really productive blending. I'm going to try to resurrect some of my unfinished Speccy projects that were just too painful to try to finish on the original machine. By the way, although it's a Windows 32-bit binary, it runs fine on Windows 7 64-bit, under XP in VirtualBox on Linux, and stably if a bit slowly under WINE on 64-bit Ubuntu 10.04. -- Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From auringer at tds.net Thu Oct 7 09:03:52 2010 From: auringer at tds.net (auringer tds.net) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2010 09:03:52 -0500 Subject: Fujitsu Line printer manuals Message-ID: I have come across the following manuals for the Fujitsu M304X Series Line Printer: OEM Manual (good condition other than some notes written inside and on the cover) Operator's Guide (good other than rubber band residue on covers) CE Manual (good other than rubber band residue on covers) Located in 53714. Anyone interested? -Jon From cclist at sydex.com Thu Oct 7 11:53:46 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 07 Oct 2010 09:53:46 -0700 Subject: 3D In-Reply-To: <20101006215856.R87226@shell.lmi.net> References: <20101005201055.Y47641@shell.lmi.net>, , <20101006215856.R87226@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4CAD98AA.22674.56348A@cclist.sydex.com> On 6 Oct 2010 at 22:02, Fred Cisin wrote: > Earlier than that, I vaguely remember that during a Siggraph meeting > at Moscone center, one of the street vendors had "Hi-res" root beer. Aw... --Chuck From technobug at comcast.net Thu Oct 7 13:14:53 2010 From: technobug at comcast.net (CRC) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2010 11:14:53 -0700 Subject: HP 9845A's Birth In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <62C6E74E-376A-4FF8-89AF-BD1F836C9283@comcast.net> An interesting article on the gestation of the HP 9845A: CRC From billdeg at degnanco.com Thu Oct 7 13:26:14 2010 From: billdeg at degnanco.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2010 14:26:14 -0400 Subject: Another huge collection for sale Message-ID: <199a0b1d$7a3f1698$614bb3c0$@com> > > Message: 17 > Date: Wed, 06 Oct 2010 16:50:48 -0600 > From: Richard > Subject: Re: Another huge collection for sale > To: cctalk > Message-ID: > > > In article <4CACED38.2000900 at snarc.net>, > Evan Koblentz writes: > > > See ebay # 170546160874 .... no affiliation. > > All microcomputer stuff that was made in the gazillions of units > quantities. I'm not sure how the owner determined that the value is > "$75K" to collectors. If you're going to list something for more than > $1,000 on ebay, the least you could do is make sure that the listing > is complete when you post it, particularly if you've got only ~30 > hours left on the listing. If this was me, I would sell each item separately, or find someone to do it for me, for the next few years. I'd have two or three items posted per week so that I could answer questions individually. You'll only get a wholesale price with such a huge lot, but I assume the seller is motivated by time. Certainly this is a two feet in the ocean vintage computer collection none the less, even if there are not a lot of really rare items. For all we know the seller is keeping the "good stuff" and purging his more common items. Or, it may be a must sell thing, we all have had our backs against the wall and need to sell of stuff to pay the bills. I wish him well and I hope that these items find themselves in the hands of a person who will keep them in good shape. Bill From ragooman at gmail.com Thu Oct 7 13:36:47 2010 From: ragooman at gmail.com (Dan Roganti) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2010 14:36:47 -0400 Subject: 3D In-Reply-To: <4CADBD03.9010909@gmail.com> References: <20101005201055.Y47641@shell.lmi.net> <4CAD221C.7010606@gmail.com> <20101006184149.J81353@shell.lmi.net> <20101006215856.R87226@shell.lmi.net> <4CADBD03.9010909@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Oct 7, 2010 at 8:28 AM, Jules Richardson < jules.richardson99 at gmail.com> wrote: > Fred Cisin wrote: > >> Depends on your definition of "high-res". >>>> >>> >> On Thu, 7 Oct 2010, William Donzelli wrote: >> >>> I think 120 Hz refresh is the issue. >>> >> >> 20 years ago, SGI. >> There probably were others, but SGI "defined" that market. >> > > Were Barco around then? I seem to recall them a decade or so ago making > displays with very high resolutions for simulation and medical use, but I > don't know at what point they got into that game. > > Which market are you referring to ? You actually think SGI started it all - gimme a break ! Because Singer-Link already had graphics using projection monitors with resolutions upto 1000x1000 for their military simulators as far back as 1980 - raster not vector. It didn't that many colors yet, about 64, but still. We designed many of the computing systems for their simulators while at SEL - even Rediffusion. =Dan --http://www.vintagecomputer.net/ragooman/ From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Oct 7 13:57:01 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2010 11:57:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 3D In-Reply-To: References: <20101005201055.Y47641@shell.lmi.net> <4CAD221C.7010606@gmail.com> <20101006184149.J81353@shell.lmi.net> <20101006215856.R87226@shell.lmi.net> <4CADBD03.9010909@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20101007115157.J29099@shell.lmi.net> > >> 20 years ago, SGI. > >> There probably were others, but SGI "defined" that market. On Thu, 7 Oct 2010, Dan Roganti wrote: > Which market are you referring to ? You actually think SGI started it all - > gimme a break ! > Because Singer-Link already had graphics using projection monitors with > resolutions upto 1000x1000 for their military simulators as far back as 1980 > - raster not vector. It didn't that many colors yet, about 64, but still. > We designed many of the computing systems for their simulators while at SEL > - even Rediffusion. Sarcasm and/or ridiculing words such as "defined" is oft wasted on this group! Why do you s'pose I put "defined" in quotes? SGI may have been the best-known, but surely nobody would think that they were "first"! -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From ragooman at gmail.com Thu Oct 7 14:24:41 2010 From: ragooman at gmail.com (Dan Roganti) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2010 15:24:41 -0400 Subject: 3D In-Reply-To: <20101007115157.J29099@shell.lmi.net> References: <20101005201055.Y47641@shell.lmi.net> <4CAD221C.7010606@gmail.com> <20101006184149.J81353@shell.lmi.net> <20101006215856.R87226@shell.lmi.net> <4CADBD03.9010909@gmail.com> <20101007115157.J29099@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Thu, Oct 7, 2010 at 2:57 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > > >> 20 years ago, SGI. > > >> There probably were others, but SGI "defined" that market. > > On Thu, 7 Oct 2010, Dan Roganti wrote: > > Which market are you referring to ? You actually think SGI started it all > - > > gimme a break ! > > Because Singer-Link already had graphics using projection monitors with > > resolutions upto 1000x1000 for their military simulators as far back as > 1980 > > - raster not vector. It didn't that many colors yet, about 64, but > still. > > We designed many of the computing systems for their simulators while at > SEL > > - even Rediffusion. > > Sarcasm and/or ridiculing words such as "defined" is oft wasted on this > group! > Why do you s'pose I put "defined" in quotes? > > SGI may have been the best-known, > but surely nobody would think that they were "first"! > > some levity doesn't hurt, doldrums is bad for your health :) From auringer at tds.net Thu Oct 7 14:40:11 2010 From: auringer at tds.net (auringer tds.net) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2010 14:40:11 -0500 Subject: MAC stuff that needs to go Message-ID: I currently have only an LC II, and it is headed to recycle heaven. I have the following MAC stuff that will go that way also, unless someone really wants it. I can't guarantee that all the floppies are readable. Link to photos below. Located in 53714. Make me an offer I can't refuse. -Jon -- Micronet model MS-120x external hard drive with manual and floppy disk - worked last time I tried it Tekalike terminal emulation - complete with manual and case Pile of original disks, including: -several versions of Excel -Pagemaker -MacDraft -Laserwriter -Mac System disks -Fullpaint -Expressionist -MS Basic -Cricket Graph http://www.flickr.com/photos/jja572/sets/72157625115800420 From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 7 14:58:28 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2010 20:58:28 +0100 (BST) Subject: 3D (was: Voice recognition will never kill the keyboard was: In-Reply-To: <20101006135208.U76536@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Oct 6, 10 02:02:42 pm Message-ID: > There seems to be a lot of variation in how much flicker people can or > will put up with. That's why SG went for the 120Hz, instead of the [at > that time] much more common 60Hz. Do British TVs have a 50Hz flicker? Old Euorpen TVs did, indeed have a 50Hz flicker (interlaced scanning, 25 complete pictures per second). Actually, you got used to it, and it wasn;t annoying on most TV programmes. Using them for computer displays was somwewhat woese :-) Some of the more recent upmarket CRT-based TVs had a built-in framestore and scan doubler, and has 100Hz rather than 50Hz flicker. It was better, but not enough IMHO to justify the prices of the set. Of coure with LCD and Plasma displys the scan rates can be just aobut anything... [...] > > > I do have a couple of sets of LED spectacles and the (fairly simple) > > control unit for use with muy E&S PS390. One day I must get round to > > getting all that working again... > > OK, I understand the principle behind LCD shutter glasses. And they > certainly were a major step up from Lipton's original spinning wheel. > > But how do LED spectacles work? They don't, and nor do I, apparently. I meant LCD spectacles, of course. IMHO this unit is not up to the normal E&S standards. The control box is very simple, it uses an LM1881 or similar to get the vertical sync pulse form the sync-on-green video signals, feeds that into a divide-by-2, and uses the ouputs from that, along with some XOR gates to drive the LCDs. Thing is, there';s not absolut sync reference, it just changes shuters after every vertical scan. So you may well get the wrong picture for each eye. There's a button on the front of the control unit to reverse the shutters, if the picture looks wrong (comes towards you ratehr than goes away), you frob this. A bit of a kludge... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 7 15:04:37 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2010 21:04:37 +0100 (BST) Subject: Odd Voltage Requirements (was: TU55 an ebay) In-Reply-To: <20101006140423.H76536@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Oct 6, 10 02:11:55 pm Message-ID: > > Another posibility is to modify the devicec to work on whatever supply > > you have. What does itdo with that AC input? If it feeds it into a > > tranformer, what voltages come out of that? You may be able to replace > > the transformer with one that takes your mains input. > > I've done this several times to get US equipment running over here. > > I suppose that is better than a motor turning a generator, or > a power supply to convert 110V 60Hz to 12VDC, connected to an inverter > that takes 12VDC, and outputs 42V 50Hz, which goes into the device's power > supply that outputs 12VDC? :-) > (although a few car batteries would smooth out the 12V, and provide a > crude UPS) Hmmm... It depends on how 'original' you want the device to me. What I typically do is run it from astep-down transformer (provided it's not going to mind the lower mains frequency over here) to check that it works and to measure the transofrmer output voltages. And then I'll seriously consider replacing the transfoemr with one that has a 230V primary. If I care about originality, I leave the original transformer in place, and run it from the step-down transformer always. Of course if there's a mains voltage selector device I flip that. Therehas been one exception to all this so far. A 3rd-party power supply for the HP9114 HPIL disk drive (connects in place of the battery pack) that I believe was sold by a well-knwon HP calculator place. I was going to simply replace the transformer, but it was so badly made that IMHO it wasn't even safe for 115V mains input, let alone 230V. I simply built a complete new PSU -- properly! -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 7 15:11:40 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2010 21:11:40 +0100 (BST) Subject: 3D In-Reply-To: <20101006184149.J81353@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Oct 6, 10 06:51:22 pm Message-ID: > THIRTY years ago, CCTV monitors and home TV sets. Only if you were a 'micro' person. The PERQ was just around 30 years ago, that was 768*1024 (portrait, I don;t think the landscape model, 1280*1202) was out by then. 1 bit per pixel, of course. And I have an image display for minicomptuters (PDP11/VAX/HP2100/etc) from that pewriod which is 512*512*30 bits. That's the version with the more expensive DAC board, the standard version was 'only' 24 bits per pixel. And don't forget vector displays. Resolutiuons of 1024 points on each axis were commonplace. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 7 15:14:51 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2010 21:14:51 +0100 (BST) Subject: An interesting isa card In-Reply-To: <201010062354.19797.pat@computer-refuge.org> from "Patrick Finnegan" at Oct 6, 10 11:54:19 pm Message-ID: > "Relay contacts available on screw terminals, a DB-9 connector, and an=20 > internal header on the board." And where would I get somethign to mate with a DB-9 connector? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 7 15:21:51 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2010 21:21:51 +0100 (BST) Subject: 3D In-Reply-To: <4CADBD03.9010909@gmail.com> from "Jules Richardson" at Oct 7, 10 07:28:51 am Message-ID: > Were Barco around then? I seem to recall them a decade or so ago making > displays with very high resolutions for simulation and medical use, but I > don't know at what point they got into that game. Barco have been around for _ages_. I distinctly remember modifying a Barco colour monitor to give it RGB inptus when I was still at school (1984-ish). That high-end image display system I mentioned in another message came with a Barco monitor, and I am pretty sure I have repaired a _valved_ monitor made by them But 30 years ago, I would have associated the company with TV boradcast standard monitors, etc rather than hi-res computer displays. Perhaps that unfair and I hadn't come across their computer products. -tony From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Oct 7 15:35:50 2010 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2010 13:35:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: An interesting isa card In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 7 Oct 2010, Tony Duell wrote: >> "Relay contacts available on screw terminals, a DB-9 connector, and an=20 >> internal header on the board." > > And where would I get somethign to mate with a DB-9 connector? Easy. They sell them at Pedantronix. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Oct 7 15:39:36 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 07 Oct 2010 16:39:36 -0400 Subject: An interesting isa card In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CAE3008.9050006@neurotica.com> On 10/7/10 4:35 PM, Gene Buckle wrote: >>> "Relay contacts available on screw terminals, a DB-9 connector, and >>> an=20 >>> internal header on the board." >> >> And where would I get somethign to mate with a DB-9 connector? > > Easy. They sell them at Pedantronix. *snicker* They also sell them at Correctronics! ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Oct 7 15:40:56 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2010 13:40:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: An interesting isa card In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20101007133822.D34706@shell.lmi.net> > > "Relay contacts available on screw terminals, a DB-9 connector, and an=20 > > internal header on the board." On Thu, 7 Oct 2010, Tony Duell wrote: > And where would I get somethign to mate with a DB-9 connector? Easy. You take a DB25, and remove pins 9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16,17,18,19,21,22,23,24,25 From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Oct 7 15:48:18 2010 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Thu, 07 Oct 2010 15:48:18 -0500 Subject: An interesting isa card In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201010072048.o97Kmc7L061746@billY.EZWIND.NET> At 03:35 PM 10/7/2010, Gene Buckle wrote: >Easy. They sell them at Pedantronix. Pedantronix Ltd., please. It is their correct name, you know. - John From legalize at xmission.com Thu Oct 7 15:55:42 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 07 Oct 2010 14:55:42 -0600 Subject: capacitor aging claim In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 07 Oct 2010 08:26:28 -0500. <201010071328.o97DSiIH038757@billY.EZWIND.NET> Message-ID: In article <201010071328.o97DSiIH038757 at billY.EZWIND.NET>, John Foust writes: > I've suspected the power supplies in my non-functional Teraks, too. Well, isn't the answer just what we always do? Replace the caps and try again? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Oct 7 15:58:10 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2010 13:58:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: An interesting isa card In-Reply-To: <4CAE3008.9050006@neurotica.com> References: <4CAE3008.9050006@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20101007134905.E34706@shell.lmi.net> >> And where would I get somethign to mate with a DB-9 connector? > Easy. They sell them at Pedantronix. But, they seem to have run out of 3.25" floppy disks, 56K Baud modems, as well as both the 65.536K and the 1024000 byte memory chips. And the USB powered space heater doesn't work very well. Is the eBay bidding for the California governator auction going to end with a B.I.N.? -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From arcarlini at iee.org Thu Oct 7 16:02:17 2010 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2010 22:02:17 +0100 Subject: An interesting isa card In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Tony Duell [ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk] wrote: >> "Relay contacts available on screw terminals, a DB-9 connector, and >> an=20 internal header on the board." > > And where would I get somethign to mate with a DB-9 connector? Epay? Look for "**RARE** DB-9 plug"? Antonio From cclist at sydex.com Thu Oct 7 16:04:01 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 07 Oct 2010 14:04:01 -0700 Subject: 3D In-Reply-To: References: <20101006184149.J81353@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Oct 6, 10 06:51:22 pm, Message-ID: <4CADD351.27264.13B4FD9@cclist.sydex.com> On 7 Oct 2010 at 21:11, Tony Duell wrote: > > THIRTY years ago, CCTV monitors and home TV sets. There were (monochrome) high-resolution TV systems 50 years ago. In particular, the Soviets were fooling around with an 1125-line technology in 1958: http://rus.625-net.ru/625/2007/01/tvch.htm --Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Oct 7 16:14:36 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2010 14:14:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 3D In-Reply-To: <4CADD351.27264.13B4FD9@cclist.sydex.com> References: <20101006184149.J81353@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Oct 6, 10 06:51:22 pm, <4CADD351.27264.13B4FD9@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20101007140722.D34706@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 7 Oct 2010, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 7 Oct 2010 at 21:11, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > THIRTY years ago, CCTV monitors and home TV sets. > > There were (monochrome) high-resolution TV systems 50 years ago. In > particular, the Soviets were fooling around with an 1125-line > technology in 1958: > http://rus.625-net.ru/625/2007/01/tvch.htm I, NOT TONY!, was the author of the conflation of "what I can pick up at a local store in MY price range, and carry home" V what existed in the industry. (I had B&W CCTV monitors, and no hope of getting anything better) -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Oct 7 16:12:55 2010 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2010 22:12:55 +0100 Subject: Voice recognition will never kill the keyboard was:Re:Evolutionof the Apple Mouse References: <4CA41FCD.6050004@neurotica.com><4CA49503.9000108@gmail.com><012a01cb6235$93e5c9d0$82165d0a@user8459cef6fa><00fe01cb64d9$bd8ebc00$f5fdf93e@user8459cef6fa> Message-ID: <008b01cb6666$2bd52f40$acfdf93e@user8459cef6fa> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Liam Proven" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, October 05, 2010 11:55 PM Subject: Re: Voice recognition will never kill the keyboard was:Re:Evolutionof the Apple Mouse > > On 5 October 2010 22:34, Andrew Burton wrote: > > That depends. Wearing 3D glasses always gives me a headache after a few > > minutes and I wear glasses (four-eyes!) anyway... so how would I wear 3D > > glasses and still be able to see (clearly) what I am doing? (six-eyes?!) > > Which ones? The ones nVidia are using are LCD shutters, not polarising > or coloured. I have only had the chance to try the (cheap) coloured ones. Infact, I was watching an Amiga demo (by Fanatix) that did feature a rotating cube for 3D glasses. They had the cube drawn twice in two different colours, spaced appropriately apart, to give the effect. However, I didn't have any 3D glasses with me at the time :( Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Oct 7 16:28:28 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2010 17:28:28 -0400 Subject: An interesting isa card In-Reply-To: <20101007133822.D34706@shell.lmi.net> References: <20101007133822.D34706@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: > You take a DB25, and remove pins > 9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16,17,18,19,21,22,23,24,25 According to the mil-spec, that is actually more correct than not. -- Will From ragooman at gmail.com Thu Oct 7 16:38:56 2010 From: ragooman at gmail.com (ragooman at gmail.com) Date: Thu, 07 Oct 2010 14:38:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 3D Message-ID: <4cae3df0.c624e70a.7b2b.5f65@mx.google.com> -----Original Message----- Date: Thursday, October 07, 2010 5:15:40 pm To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" From: "Fred Cisin" Subject: Re: 3D On Thu, 7 Oct 2010, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 7 Oct 2010 at 21:11, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > THIRTY years ago, CCTV monitors and home TV sets. > > There were (monochrome) high-resolution TV systems 50 years ago. In > particular, the Soviets were fooling around with an 1125-line > technology in 1958: > http://rus.625-net.ru/625/2007/01/tvch.htm And did that come with a mercury delay line frame buffer ? :) =Dan From cclist at sydex.com Thu Oct 7 17:05:08 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 07 Oct 2010 15:05:08 -0700 Subject: An interesting isa card In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: <4CADE1A4.18747.1734317@cclist.sydex.com> On 7 Oct 2010 at 22:02, arcarlini at iee.org wrote: > Epay? Look for "**RARE** DB-9 plug"? Actually this whole affiar sounds more like a DB-8... --Chuck From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Oct 7 17:09:22 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 07 Oct 2010 15:09:22 -0700 Subject: capacitor aging claim In-Reply-To: References: <4CAC511D.5382.6E8A08@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4CAE4512.5030301@brouhaha.com> William Donzelli wrote: > I suspect that most big old electrolytics found in older computers > mainly die from the seals breaking and moisture getting in, just as > capacitors of the 1940s (even micas) are fond of doing. No amount of > reforming will fix this problem. > I thought that when the seal failed, the electrolyte dried out? Either way, though, you're correct; once the seal has failed the capacitor needs to be replaced. I worked on the PDP-1 Restoration Project at the Computer History Museum in Mountain View, CA. This equipment was manufactured in 1961. We did about six months of inspection, maintenance, and repair of the PDP-1 and the Type 30G display before we first applied power. Part of this process was to check all of the electrolytic capacitors, and reforming or replace them as necessary. It appeared that all of the capacitors were original. Many of them needed to be reformed, and we used an extremely over-engineered approach to doing that. Only a very small percentage of the electrolytic capacitors had failed such that they could not be reformed. I fully expect that all of those capacitors will fail eventually, but there isn't nearly enough data to predict a mean lifetime. Eric From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Oct 7 17:12:16 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 07 Oct 2010 15:12:16 -0700 Subject: capacitor aging claim In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CAE45C0.5070807@brouhaha.com> On 10/06/2010 10:18 AM, Richard wrote: > Now I know that capacitors tend to the component most likely to fail > on a piece of vintage equipment, but this is the first time I recall > seeing it claimed that lack of use accelerates deterioriation of > capacitors. > > The oxide layer breaks down over time, which lowers the breakdown voltage of the capacitor. If you then apply the full working voltage, it will damage the capacitor. The oxide layer can be "reformed" by application of a limited current to the capacitor. This is actually how the oxide layer is initially formed when the capacitor is manufactured. If the capacitor is reformed properly, it should have performance characteristics comparable to those it had after manufacture. Eric From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Oct 7 17:13:05 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2010 15:13:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: An interesting isa card In-Reply-To: <4CADE1A4.18747.1734317@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4CADE1A4.18747.1734317@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20101007150812.H37660@shell.lmi.net> > > Epay? Look for "**RARE** DB-9 plug"? On Thu, 7 Oct 2010, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Actually this whole affiar sounds more like a DB-8... Pull one more pin. No DataTerminalReady? or no CarrierDetect? Or are the frame ground and signal ground twisted together? From legalize at xmission.com Thu Oct 7 17:15:41 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 07 Oct 2010 16:15:41 -0600 Subject: capacitor aging claim In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 07 Oct 2010 15:12:16 -0700. <4CAE45C0.5070807@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: In article <4CAE45C0.5070807 at brouhaha.com>, Eric Smith writes: > The oxide layer can be "reformed" by application of a limited current to > the capacitor. Yeah, but this isn't what occurs when you just power on the device. The claim was made that running the device regularly keeps it in operating condition and that *not* running the device regularly accelerates the deterioriation. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Oct 7 17:23:16 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2010 18:23:16 -0400 Subject: capacitor aging claim In-Reply-To: <4CAE4512.5030301@brouhaha.com> References: <4CAC511D.5382.6E8A08@cclist.sydex.com> <4CAE4512.5030301@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: > I thought that when the seal failed, the electrolyte dried out? Either way spells bad news. Bad seals, however, can happen to any type of capacitor. When I was looking at Claude's B205 mainframe in hopes to resurrect it, it became quickly apparent that nearly every capacitor in the thing (I estimated 6000) needed replacement, because Burroughs used those old Sprague "bumblebees". Many of the capacitors were so bad you could see cracks in the plastic. Moisture + paper + high voltage. > I fully expect that all of those capacitors will fail eventually, but there > isn't nearly enough data to predict a mean lifetime. I bet there is a truckload of electrolytic capacitor failure data in certain archives. The military has been seriously studying component failure ever since World War 2. We have found the studies for tube failures in computers and electronics, and they really tell all, but not one for capacitor life (partly because there are not many hardcore old capacitor geeks out there). -- Will From rdawson16 at hotmail.com Thu Oct 7 17:24:50 2010 From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2010 17:24:50 -0500 Subject: Compaq luggable, what next? Message-ID: I got this gem for $25 today. What would you guys recomend next: ISA ide card for storage, recomendations? Ethernet to get it on line, and what stripped down browser would work? I remember flight simulator was pretty good with the 600x400? graphics Autocad 2.6 too, I dont know yet if I have the math chip installed How could I go wrong for $25? They have another one if anybody wants it (Surplusgizmos.com) Randy From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Oct 7 17:26:13 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2010 18:26:13 -0400 Subject: capacitor aging claim In-Reply-To: References: <4CAE45C0.5070807@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: > Yeah, but this isn't what occurs when you just power on the device. > The claim was made that running the device regularly keeps it in > operating condition and that *not* running the device regularly > accelerates the deterioriation. But running the device will dry out and stress the seals faster. Getting old sucks. -- Will From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Thu Oct 7 17:31:31 2010 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2010 18:31:31 -0400 (EDT) Subject: capacitor aging claim In-Reply-To: References: <4CAE45C0.5070807@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 7 Oct 2010, William Donzelli wrote: > Getting old sucks. It beats the alternative, though... Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Oct 7 17:37:26 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2010 18:37:26 -0400 Subject: capacitor aging claim In-Reply-To: <4CAE4512.5030301@brouhaha.com> References: <4CAC511D.5382.6E8A08@cclist.sydex.com> <4CAE4512.5030301@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: >?Only a very small percentage of the electrolytic > capacitors had failed such that they could not be reformed. Could you confirm that the failures were due to not being able to reform, rather than another failure mode? -- Will From cclist at sydex.com Thu Oct 7 17:37:43 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 07 Oct 2010 15:37:43 -0700 Subject: capacitor aging claim In-Reply-To: <4CAE4512.5030301@brouhaha.com> References: , , <4CAE4512.5030301@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4CADE947.8663.19118B9@cclist.sydex.com> On 7 Oct 2010 at 15:09, Eric Smith wrote: > I worked on the PDP-1 Restoration Project at the Computer History > Museum in Mountain View, CA. This equipment was manufactured in 1961. > We did about six months of inspection, maintenance, and repair of the > PDP-1 and the Type 30G display before we first applied power. Part of > this process was to check all of the electrolytic capacitors, and > reforming or replace them as necessary. It appeared that all of the > capacitors were original. Many of them needed to be reformed, and we > used an extremely over-engineered approach to doing that. Only a very > small percentage of the electrolytic capacitors had failed such that > they could not be reformed. That picture will most likely change if it hasn't. I recently revisted a small pile of Boschert switching PSUs from about 1976. A fair number of them had electrolytics that were little more than empty cans. No obvious seals blown, just bone dry inside. I believe they were either Illinois or Elna. The high frequencies used in these coupled with the relatively poor ESR characteristics of the capacitors of the time probably means lots of internal heating and subsequent failure. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Thu Oct 7 17:38:45 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 07 Oct 2010 15:38:45 -0700 Subject: capacitor aging claim In-Reply-To: References: <4CAE45C0.5070807@brouhaha.com>, , Message-ID: <4CADE985.30547.1920A4D@cclist.sydex.com> On 7 Oct 2010 at 18:26, William Donzelli wrote: > Getting old sucks. A favorite quote from one of my departed teachers: "Don't get old-- you won't like it." --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Thu Oct 7 17:39:57 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 07 Oct 2010 15:39:57 -0700 Subject: An interesting isa card In-Reply-To: <20101007150812.H37660@shell.lmi.net> References: , <4CADE1A4.18747.1734317@cclist.sydex.com>, <20101007150812.H37660@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4CADE9CD.19773.193235E@cclist.sydex.com> On 7 Oct 2010 at 15:13, Fred Cisin wrote: > > > Epay? Look for "**RARE** DB-9 plug"? > > On Thu, 7 Oct 2010, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > Actually this whole affair sounds more like a DB-8... > > Pull one more pin. > > No DataTerminalReady? or no CarrierDetect? Or are the frame ground > and signal ground twisted together? Read my post quickly several times. -Chuck From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Oct 7 18:10:44 2010 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 07 Oct 2010 19:10:44 -0400 Subject: 3D In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CAE5374.40203@gmail.com> Tony Duell wrote: >> THIRTY years ago, CCTV monitors and home TV sets. > > Only if you were a 'micro' person. The PERQ was just around 30 years ago, > that was 768*1024 (portrait, I don;t think the landscape model, > 1280*1202) was out by then. 1 bit per pixel, of course. > > And I have an image display for minicomptuters (PDP11/VAX/HP2100/etc) from > that pewriod which is 512*512*30 bits. That's the version with the more > expensive DAC board, the standard version was 'only' 24 bits per pixel. > > And don't forget vector displays. Resolutiuons of 1024 points on each > axis were commonplace. But with many colors and 120Hz? Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Oct 7 18:14:10 2010 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 07 Oct 2010 19:14:10 -0400 Subject: Compaq luggable, what next? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CAE5442.4080106@gmail.com> Randy Dawson wrote: > I got this gem for $25 today. What would you guys recomend next: > > ISA ide card for storage, recomendations? I'd go with an ISA IDE card and a CompactFlash. > Ethernet to get it on line, and what stripped down browser would work? Do I remember correctly that there was a text-mode web browser with later versions of Clarkson Telnet? Peace... Sridhar From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Oct 7 18:22:31 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2010 19:22:31 -0400 Subject: 3D In-Reply-To: <4CAE5374.40203@gmail.com> References: <4CAE5374.40203@gmail.com> Message-ID: > But with many colors and 120Hz? It is amazing how many people have overlooked the 120 Hz refresh rate aspect of this thread. Making a big frame buffer with very fine resolution is the easy part - getting the video circuits and the tube to play along is where things get tough. -- Will From cclist at sydex.com Thu Oct 7 20:03:38 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 07 Oct 2010 18:03:38 -0700 Subject: 3D In-Reply-To: References: , <4CAE5374.40203@gmail.com>, Message-ID: <4CAE0B7A.17061.216B08D@cclist.sydex.com> On 7 Oct 2010 at 19:22, William Donzelli wrote: > > But with many colors and 120Hz? > > It is amazing how many people have overlooked the 120 Hz refresh rate > aspect of this thread. Making a big frame buffer with very fine > resolution is the easy part - getting the video circuits and the tube > to play along is where things get tough. I see phosphor decay rates as being a problem if we're talking a frame rate of 120 Hz. Were dual-beam CRTs ever used for high- resolution display (one beam scans even lines; the other scans odd)? All in all, you'd be better off with 2 CRTs instead of one. --Chuck From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Oct 7 20:08:43 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2010 21:08:43 -0400 Subject: 3D In-Reply-To: <4CAE0B7A.17061.216B08D@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4CAE5374.40203@gmail.com> <4CAE0B7A.17061.216B08D@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > I see phosphor decay rates as being a problem if we're talking a > frame rate of 120 Hz. ?Were dual-beam CRTs ever used for high- > resolution display (one beam scans even lines; the other scans odd)? Use a faster phosphor. P4 and P22 are medium speed. There are much faster formulations. -- Will From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Thu Oct 7 20:32:28 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2010 22:32:28 -0300 Subject: capacitor aging claim References: <4CAE45C0.5070807@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <199801cb6688$dde970c0$cf9858bb@portajara> >> Getting old sucks. > It beats the alternative, though... ' How could you know? Has you been there before? ;oD From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Oct 7 20:41:43 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2010 18:41:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 3D In-Reply-To: <4CAE0B7A.17061.216B08D@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4CAE5374.40203@gmail.com>, <4CAE0B7A.17061.216B08D@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20101007180941.K37660@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 7 Oct 2010, Chuck Guzis wrote: > All in all, you'd be better off with 2 CRTs instead of one. I played with that in the early 1980s. I used viewfinders from video cameras. Take a matching pair, and turn the eyepiece cup around to turn one into left-eye, and bolt them on a bracket. I used B&W, because I'd rather have sharp than colorful (in text mode, the B&W viewfinders could resolve 80x25 text quite comfortably) I fed each one from a separate computer, because I never could manage to get 2 CGA cards to coexist in one machine. I never took it past "proof of concept" (a few 640x200 B&W still images) -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From rdawson16 at hotmail.com Thu Oct 7 21:05:54 2010 From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2010 21:05:54 -0500 Subject: Compaq luggable, what next? In-Reply-To: <4CAE5442.4080106@gmail.com> References: , <4CAE5442.4080106@gmail.com> Message-ID: > Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2010 19:14:10 -0400 > From: ploopster at gmail.com > To: > CC: rdawson16 at hotmail.com > Subject: Re: Compaq luggable, what next? > > Randy Dawson wrote: > > I got this gem for $25 today. What would you guys recomend next: > > > > ISA ide card for storage, recomendations? > > I'd go with an ISA IDE card and a CompactFlash. > > > Ethernet to get it on line, and what stripped down browser would work? > > Do I remember correctly that there was a text-mode web browser with > later versions of Clarkson Telnet? > > Peace... Sridhar OK I got this far... Some weird blinking cursor on power on, then a 1701 error, and it hits the floppy disk. Aha, its already got a Hardcard inside! I open it up, and I feel no mechanical motion or hear any sound, the drive does feel warm, so darn it, its locked up. And the connector is proprietary, takes the flex straight to the drive. I see electronics that look like a data separator, some tweakable caps, so the HardcardPlus boards are not even MFM type interfaces. Next problem, this is the keytronics capacitive keyboard, and it has the foam rot problem, I have some dead keys. I read you can use double sided foam tape, stick the Mylar circles on it and fix these keyboards. Ill try that next... as if my time is worth nothing. Hey we are hobby computerists. Randy From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Thu Oct 7 21:32:16 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2010 23:32:16 -0300 Subject: Compaq luggable, what next? References: , <4CAE5442.4080106@gmail.com> Message-ID: <19e301cb6693$85b33110$cf9858bb@portajara> >Some weird blinking cursor on power on, then a 1701 error, and it hits the >floppy disk. The motor of the hardcard is probably stopped by heads glued to the platter, due to the time it doesn't run Try banging the hardcard on the table, it usually releases the heads :) From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Oct 7 22:23:08 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 07 Oct 2010 20:23:08 -0700 Subject: capacitor aging claim In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CAE8E9C.6040400@brouhaha.com> On 10/07/2010 03:15 PM, Richard wrote: > Yeah, but this isn't what occurs when you just power on the device. Actually, it is. The oxide breaks down whenever the capacitor isn't powered, but it is an exponential decay effect. Leaving something powered off a short while doesn't let it break down too much, and when you power it up again, the oxide reforms a little bit, back to where it is supposed to be. If you take a 25V electrolytic capacitor, and use it at only 6V for a long time, then apply 25V suddenly, you're likely to damage it. > The claim was made that running the device regularly keeps it in > operating condition and that *not* running the device regularly > accelerates the deterioriation. Yes. From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Oct 7 22:27:45 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 07 Oct 2010 20:27:45 -0700 Subject: capacitor aging claim In-Reply-To: References: <4CAC511D.5382.6E8A08@cclist.sydex.com> <4CAE4512.5030301@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4CAE8FB1.1090203@brouhaha.com> On 10/07/2010 03:37 PM, William Donzelli wrote: > Could you confirm that the failures were due to not being able to > reform, rather than another failure mode? We didn't attempt any failure analysis. Our reformation procedure involved computing a current limit at voltage steps of 0.5V each. If at any given step, the leakage current of the capacitor didn't drop below a reasonable level after an extended period (perhaps 12 hours), we considered the capacitor to need replacement. IIRC, most of the ones that failed never dropped to a reasonable leakage current even at a fairly low voltage. Eric From cclist at sydex.com Thu Oct 7 22:39:05 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 07 Oct 2010 20:39:05 -0700 Subject: capacitor aging claim In-Reply-To: <4CAE8E9C.6040400@brouhaha.com> References: , <4CAE8E9C.6040400@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4CAE2FE9.22716.2A4FFA5@cclist.sydex.com> On 7 Oct 2010 at 20:23, Eric Smith wrote: > If you take a 25V electrolytic capacitor, and use it at only 6V for a > long time, then apply 25V suddenly, you're likely to damage it. Does this apply to oil and paper capacitors as well? --Chuck From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Oct 7 22:47:09 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2010 23:47:09 -0400 Subject: capacitor aging claim In-Reply-To: <4CAE2FE9.22716.2A4FFA5@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4CAE8E9C.6040400@brouhaha.com> <4CAE2FE9.22716.2A4FFA5@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > Does this apply to oil and paper capacitors as well? If the innards are contaminated, it is possible. An example would be the aforementioned paper Sprague "bumblebees" - more often then not, moisture has penetrated the case and has compromised the dielectric. You can safely use them at low voltages, as guitarists do, but at rated voltage (200 to 600 Volts, depending on the type), they will likely fail. I am not so sure about oil caps - they tend to be pretty bulletproof. Even when the seals leak, they still tend to be good at rated voltage. It could be that the oil just keeps everything else out of the innards. -- Will From cclist at sydex.com Thu Oct 7 23:06:13 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 07 Oct 2010 21:06:13 -0700 Subject: capacitor aging claim In-Reply-To: References: , <4CAE2FE9.22716.2A4FFA5@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4CAE3645.11547.2BDD937@cclist.sydex.com> On 7 Oct 2010 at 23:47, William Donzelli wrote: > If the innards are contaminated, it is possible. An example would be > the aforementioned paper Sprague "bumblebees" - more often then not, > moisture has penetrated the case and has compromised the dielectric. > You can safely use them at low voltages, as guitarists do, but at > rated voltage (200 to 600 Volts, depending on the type), they will > likely fail. I remember the bumblebees--black phenolic body with yellow printing, right? How about the steel-jacketed Vitamin Q caps? (they could be pretty scary when they went). Didn't the old paper caps use oil-soaked paper as the dielectric? I'm thinking about a bunch of old motor-starting capacitors that I have kicking around... --Chuck From rdawson16 at hotmail.com Thu Oct 7 23:19:35 2010 From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2010 23:19:35 -0500 Subject: Compaq luggable, what next? In-Reply-To: <19e301cb6693$85b33110$cf9858bb@portajara> References: , , <4CAE5442.4080106@gmail.com>, , <19e301cb6693$85b33110$cf9858bb@portajara> Message-ID: > From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Compaq luggable, what next? > Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2010 23:32:16 -0300 > > >Some weird blinking cursor on power on, then a 1701 error, and it hits the > >floppy disk. > > The motor of the hardcard is probably stopped by heads glued to the > platter, due to the time it doesn't run > > Try banging the hardcard on the table, it usually releases the heads :) > I did better than that, took its cover off. Gave those platters a spin. Formatted just fine too. Lets see how long it lasts. Randy From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Oct 7 23:20:56 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2010 00:20:56 -0400 Subject: capacitor aging claim In-Reply-To: <4CAE3645.11547.2BDD937@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4CAE2FE9.22716.2A4FFA5@cclist.sydex.com> <4CAE3645.11547.2BDD937@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > I remember the bumblebees--black phenolic body with yellow printing, > right? Yes, although I think the term "bumblebee" comes from the OEM version with color code bands, much like resistors. It seems like at least two of the six or seven bands are yellow, thus the name. > How about the steel-jacketed Vitamin Q caps? (they could be pretty > scary when they went). Vitamin Qs (and similar Astron and Gudeman caps) were, and still are, pretty bulletproof. But yes, when they fail they can make a hell of a mess. The oil is not PCB laden, but plain mineral oil. I save every one of these caps I can get my hands on. > Didn't the old paper caps use oil-soaked paper as the dielectric? The oil caps actually were paper, but the oil soaked the paper through. Plain paper capacitors generally had no oil. -- Will From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Oct 8 00:16:15 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 07 Oct 2010 22:16:15 -0700 Subject: capacitor aging claim In-Reply-To: <4CAE2FE9.22716.2A4FFA5@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4CAE8E9C.6040400@brouhaha.com> <4CAE2FE9.22716.2A4FFA5@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4CAEA91F.1060809@brouhaha.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > Does this apply to oil and paper capacitors as well? It applies to aluminum electrolytics, and possibly to other kinds of electrolytic, but I don't think it would apply to non-electrolytic capacitors. Eric From rodsmallwood at btconnect.com Fri Oct 8 03:02:59 2010 From: rodsmallwood at btconnect.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2010 09:02:59 +0100 Subject: Another huge collection for sale In-Reply-To: <199a0b1d$7a3f1698$614bb3c0$@com> References: <199a0b1d$7a3f1698$614bb3c0$@com> Message-ID: My guess is the seller didn't collect any of it. Clearly he didn't pay $5000 for it either. There's a lot of software that may or may not run. There are one or two attractive items. The vast majority of it can be described as home or personal computers. Nothing of interest to me because: 1. I live in the UK 2. With one exception I collect DEC systems. 3. The exception? - I'm looking for a 230v Northstar Horizon or parts thereof. Regards ? Rod Smallwood ? -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Bill Degnan Sent: 07 October 2010 19:26 To: cctech at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Another huge collection for sale > > Message: 17 > Date: Wed, 06 Oct 2010 16:50:48 -0600 > From: Richard > Subject: Re: Another huge collection for sale > To: cctalk > Message-ID: > > > In article <4CACED38.2000900 at snarc.net>, > Evan Koblentz writes: > > > See ebay # 170546160874 .... no affiliation. > > All microcomputer stuff that was made in the gazillions of units > quantities. I'm not sure how the owner determined that the value is > "$75K" to collectors. If you're going to list something for more than > $1,000 on ebay, the least you could do is make sure that the listing > is complete when you post it, particularly if you've got only ~30 > hours left on the listing. If this was me, I would sell each item separately, or find someone to do it for me, for the next few years. I'd have two or three items posted per week so that I could answer questions individually. You'll only get a wholesale price with such a huge lot, but I assume the seller is motivated by time. Certainly this is a two feet in the ocean vintage computer collection none the less, even if there are not a lot of really rare items. For all we know the seller is keeping the "good stuff" and purging his more common items. Or, it may be a must sell thing, we all have had our backs against the wall and need to sell of stuff to pay the bills. I wish him well and I hope that these items find themselves in the hands of a person who will keep them in good shape. Bill From innfoclassics at gmail.com Fri Oct 8 03:35:21 2010 From: innfoclassics at gmail.com (Paxton Hoag) Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2010 01:35:21 -0700 Subject: Compaq luggable, what next? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > I got this gem for $25 today. ?What would you guys recomend next: > > ISA ide card for storage, recomendations? > Ethernet to get it on line, and what stripped down browser would work? > I remember flight simulator was pretty good with the 600x400? graphics > Autocad 2.6 too, I dont know yet if I have the math chip installed > > How could I go wrong for $25? ?They have another one if anybody wants it > (Surplusgizmos.com) I looked at those, however I thought $25 to be high. Didn't think of keyboard rot. I had so many go through my hands in the 1990s. The ones I saw commonly had hardcards. I thought they were hard to work on...although you could work on them. If you do figure out how to get it on the internet I would be curious. Please post the results here. -- Paxton Hoag Astoria, OR USA From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Fri Oct 8 03:56:55 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2010 05:56:55 -0300 Subject: Compaq luggable, what next? References: , , <4CAE5442.4080106@gmail.com>, , <19e301cb6693$85b33110$cf9858bb@portajara> Message-ID: <1a9d01cb66c9$69db23e0$cf9858bb@portajara> >I did better than that, took its cover off. Gave those platters a spin. >Formatted just fine too. Lets see how long it lasts. Usually works for years :) But I wouldn't trust my precious data to that :) From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Fri Oct 8 05:09:48 2010 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2010 12:09:48 +0200 (CEST) Subject: capacitor aging claim In-Reply-To: References: <4CAC511D.5382.6E8A08@cclist.sydex.com> <4CAE4512.5030301@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 7 Oct 2010, William Donzelli wrote: > Burroughs used those old Sprague "bumblebees". Many of the capacitors Ah, like the Wima Tropydur (called "Backpflaume" here, i.e. prune). Used mainly in consumer electronics during the 50s. Christian From alexander.voropay at gmail.com Fri Oct 8 03:40:55 2010 From: alexander.voropay at gmail.com (Alexander Voropay) Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2010 12:40:55 +0400 Subject: EPAY DEC Qbus Z-80 Message-ID: JFYI: I have one non-DEC Q-Bus card, a tape controller with Z80 CPU From ragooman at gmail.com Fri Oct 8 08:57:49 2010 From: ragooman at gmail.com (Dan Roganti) Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2010 09:57:49 -0400 Subject: 3D In-Reply-To: References: <4CAE5374.40203@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Oct 7, 2010 at 7:22 PM, William Donzelli wrote: > > But with many colors and 120Hz? > > It is amazing how many people have overlooked the 120 Hz refresh rate > aspect of this thread. Making a big frame buffer with very fine > resolution is the easy part - getting the video circuits and the tube > to play along is where things get tough. > > Tektronix already had 180hz crt's for the head-mounted VR displays in the usaf flight sims 20 yrs ago, EX100HD. It was only 1", specifically for VR systems, but still fast enough. From legalize at xmission.com Fri Oct 8 08:59:25 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 08 Oct 2010 07:59:25 -0600 Subject: capacitor aging claim In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 07 Oct 2010 20:23:08 -0700. <4CAE8E9C.6040400@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: In article <4CAE8E9C.6040400 at brouhaha.com>, Eric Smith writes: > On 10/07/2010 03:15 PM, Richard wrote: > > Yeah, but this isn't what occurs when you just power on the device. > Actually, it is. No, it isn't. The part you didn't quote is where the other poster was saying "apply increasing voltage gradually". That's what you do when you reform a cap. Its *not* what happens when you turn on the power. Otherwise people wouldn't need reforming circuits. > The oxide breaks down whenever the capacitor isn't > powered, but it is an exponential decay effect. Leaving something > powered off a short while doesn't let it break down too much, and when > you power it up again, the oxide reforms a little bit, back to where it > is supposed to be. I'd like to see some data/research that supports this. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Fri Oct 8 09:20:40 2010 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2010 16:20:40 +0200 (CEST) Subject: EPAY DEC Qbus Z-80 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 8 Oct 2010, Alexander Voropay wrote: > JFYI: I have one non-DEC Q-Bus card, a tape controller with Z80 CPU I have several non-DEC Q-Bus cards with MC68000 and a non-DEC Q-Bus machine with MC68020 ;-)) Christian From dkelvey at hotmail.com Fri Oct 8 09:25:21 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2010 07:25:21 -0700 Subject: capacitor aging claim In-Reply-To: References: , <4CAE2FE9.22716.2A4FFA5@cclist.sydex.com>, , <4CAE3645.11547.2BDD937@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: > From: wdonzelli at gmail.com > ---snip--- > > > Didn't the old paper caps use oil-soaked paper as the dielectric? > > The oil caps actually were paper, but the oil soaked the paper > through. Plain paper capacitors generally had no oil. > > -- Hi When I was a kid, I'd distruct old radios and TV's. Every paper capacitor I unrolled has some oil in the paper. I used to open evering up. I'd unroll transformers, smash tubes to see what was on the inside. I probably have more PCB's in my system than the average. Dwight From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Oct 8 09:53:09 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2010 10:53:09 -0400 Subject: 3D In-Reply-To: References: <4CAE5374.40203@gmail.com> Message-ID: > Tektronix already had 180hz crt's for the head-mounted VR displays in the > usaf flight sims 20 yrs ago, EX100HD. It was only 1", specifically for VR > systems, but still fast enough. Driving a 1" CRT is child's play compared to driving a real tube. Still, I bet it was an impressive system. -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Oct 8 09:56:00 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2010 10:56:00 -0400 Subject: capacitor aging claim In-Reply-To: References: <4CAE2FE9.22716.2A4FFA5@cclist.sydex.com> <4CAE3645.11547.2BDD937@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > ?When I was a kid, I'd distruct old radios and TV's. Every > paper capacitor I unrolled has some oil in the paper. Probably wax. Which, yes, I suppose is kind of like oil. -- Will From cclist at sydex.com Fri Oct 8 10:08:48 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 08 Oct 2010 08:08:48 -0700 Subject: capacitor aging claim In-Reply-To: References: , , Message-ID: <4CAED190.14900.10A0A7@cclist.sydex.com> On 8 Oct 2010 at 7:25, dwight elvey wrote: > When I was a kid, I'd distruct old radios and TV's. Every > paper capacitor I unrolled has some oil in the paper. > I used to open evering up. I'd unroll transformers, smash > tubes to see what was on the inside. That's my recollection, also. It does make sense. Haven't seen a coated-in-wax capacitor for quite some time. How are old 40s-50s "bathtub" capacitors holding up? Moving on, I'm seeing capacitors that I never considered to be perishable dying, such as polystyrene ones used in AC line filters during the 1980s. I've replaced those with polypropylene units, but is there a better substitute (since polystyrene caps haven't been made for some time)? --Chuck From ian_primus at yahoo.com Fri Oct 8 10:32:22 2010 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2010 08:32:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: capacitor aging claim In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <395304.70134.qm@web52605.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Capacitors do age. And they age badly. That is no myth. In the world of those of us that collect CRT based devices, failing/limping electrolytic capacitors are a very common occurrence. I can't even begin to guess how many electrolytics I've replaced in terminals, monitors, and television sets. But, in these cases, small value electrolytics, the primary mode of failure is electrolyte loss. Your typical aluminum electrolytic is composed of two strips of aluminum foil - one side of one of these is coated in aluminum oxide. They're separated by an electrolyte soaked paper, and rolled up into a little can. The whole thing is "sealed" with a rubber plug crimped into the bottom. Over time, the seal is comporomized, and the electrolyte starts to deteriorate and evaporate, or sometimes leak out the bottom. If anything, use and heat will accellerate this. Since the electrolyte (which acts as part of one of the plates), starts to go away, the cap no longer works as it should, and the oxide layer starts to break down. Unroll a faulty thirty year old electrolytic, as well as a modern, still-good one. Compare. The older one will have a noticeably drier paper layer, and sometimes you'll see discolored marks on the oxide layer that look like pinholes. When a cap gets like that, no amount of "reforming" can bring back lost electrolyte. The ONLY time a capacitor can possibly reform, is if it is a high grade part, thoroughly sealed, and has not lost it's magic goo. The larger caps - large B+ filters, power supply filters, etc. Do seem to last longer, but I'm starting to see more and more of them failing in monitors. In Atari video games, a well known failure is the large (28,000uf, IIRC) power supply filter on the transformer block - affectionately known as the "big blue". This cap ages badly and fails often, and this is probably largely due to the fact that I'm sure Atari didn't buy the greatest parts in the world, coupled with the poor storage conditions most games faced. But, again, similar story - evaporated/destroyed electrolyte and damaged oxide layer. -Ian From IanK at vulcan.com Fri Oct 8 12:47:26 2010 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2010 10:47:26 -0700 Subject: EPAY DEC Qbus Z-80 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Christian Corti > Sent: Friday, October 08, 2010 7:21 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: EPAY DEC Qbus Z-80 > > On Fri, 8 Oct 2010, Alexander Voropay wrote: > > JFYI: I have one non-DEC Q-Bus card, a tape controller with Z80 CPU > > I have several non-DEC Q-Bus cards with MC68000 and a non-DEC Q-Bus > machine with MC68020 ;-)) > > Christian DEC also used the 68000 in the DELUA, a Unibus card, and an 8085 to emulate the front panel on a PDP-11/44, again on a Unibus. I've done some research on this card and learned that it was a coprocessor system that enabled multiple CP/M sessions on a Unibus machine, most often a VAX with a Unibus cabinet. It has four full and distinct Z80 microcomputers on the board - processor and 64k RAM each. I suspect the 2901s are microcoded 'glue logic' to support the emulation of disk and peripherals. It's going to be fun to see if I can reverse-engineer this to the point that I can load and run code on the Z80s! -- Ian From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Oct 8 12:55:01 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 08 Oct 2010 10:55:01 -0700 Subject: capacitor aging claim In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CAF5AF5.8030501@brouhaha.com> >> On 10/07/2010 03:15 PM, Richard wrote: >>> Yeah, but this isn't what occurs when you just power on the device. >> Actually, it is. > No, it isn't. The part you didn't quote is where the other poster was > saying "apply increasing voltage gradually". That's what you do when > you reform a cap. Its *not* what happens when you turn on the power. > Otherwise people wouldn't need reforming circuits. > The specific context was a device that's been powered off a relatively short time. The oxide has only deteriorated a small amount, and not to less than the working voltage. Powering it up, at the working voltage, will do some reformation, and will no damage the capacitor. I never said that this procedure was applicable to capacitors that had been powered off for a long time; in fact, I think I specifically said otherwise. I described a different procedure for capacitors that haven't been powered for a long time, which involved limiting the current into the capacitor. Limiting the current has the effect of not allowing the voltage to increase beyond what the capacitor can handle (assuming that you chose the current limit appropriately). This is actually much better than ramping the voltage at a constant rate, because the capacitor make take longer for reformation during some points in the process than during others. We saw that with some capacitors in the PDP-1. Despite that, it is still the case that reformation is what is occuring in both scenarios, which is what I replied "actually, it is" to in the quote above. It is the same electro-chemical process; you seemed to be claiming that it was not. Eric From alexeyt at freeshell.org Fri Oct 8 13:43:40 2010 From: alexeyt at freeshell.org (Alexey Toptygin) Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2010 18:43:40 +0000 (UTC) Subject: capacitor aging claim In-Reply-To: <4CAF5AF5.8030501@brouhaha.com> References: <4CAF5AF5.8030501@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: So, what exactly does "Vitamin Q" mean when speaking about capacitors? Is it a brand name? An additive they put in the capacitor oil? All google tells me is that guitar-heads make ridiculous claims about how it will improve your sound regardless of what equipment you have if you replace all your capacitors with Vitamin Q... Alexey From evan at snarc.net Fri Oct 8 14:03:55 2010 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Fri, 08 Oct 2010 15:03:55 -0400 Subject: Ted Nelson autobiography Message-ID: <4CAF6B1B.8000905@snarc.net> New book .... Ted N.'s autobiography .... *http://tinyurl.com/23ewehv* From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Oct 8 13:22:12 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2010 19:22:12 +0100 (BST) Subject: Compaq luggable, what next? In-Reply-To: from "Randy Dawson" at Oct 7, 10 09:05:54 pm Message-ID: > Some weird blinking cursor on power on=2C then a 1701 error=2C and it hits = > the floppy disk. > Aha=2C its already got a Hardcard inside! IIRC, 1701 is a hard disk problem. > I open it up=2C and I feel no mechanical motion or hear any sound=2C the dr= > ive does feel warm=2C so darn it=2C its locked up. I assume the drive spindle is not accesible outside the HDA. If it is, try giving it a tweak (but don;t blame me if it rips the heads off ;-)) > And the connector is proprietary=2C takes the flex straight to the drive. = > I see electronics that look like a data separator=2C some tweakable caps=2C= > so the HardcardPlus boards are not even MFM type interfaces. Where is this data separator (on which end of the interface cable? With an ST412 MFM set-up, I'd expect the data separator to be on the controller board. The drive really is dumb... > Next problem=2C this is the keytronics capacitive keyboard=2C and it has th= > e foam rot problem=2C I have some dead keys. I read you can use double sid= > ed foam tape=2C stick the Mylar circles on it and fix these keyboards. I've seen those 'contacts' on E-bay.... If it's just the foam, then yes you can mend them with bfoam tape. But I've seen one Keytronics keyboard where the foam was fine but the metalisation had disapperaed. I have no idea how that happeend... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Oct 8 12:58:10 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2010 18:58:10 +0100 (BST) Subject: An interesting isa card In-Reply-To: <20101007133822.D34706@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Oct 7, 10 01:40:56 pm Message-ID: > > And where would I get somethign to mate with a DB-9 connector? > > Easy. > You take a DB25, and remove pins > 9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16,17,18,19,21,22,23,24,25 Why those pins? Removing 1, 9..19, 21, 23..25 would leave me the pins for the RS232 signals that appear on a PC/AT serial port (DE9). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Oct 8 13:01:12 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2010 19:01:12 +0100 (BST) Subject: capacitor aging claim In-Reply-To: from "Richard" at Oct 7, 10 02:55:42 pm Message-ID: > > I've suspected the power supplies in my non-functional Teraks, too. > > Well, isn't the answer just what we always do? > Replace the caps and try again? Err, no. I prefer to make masurements, work out what is wrong and _then_ replace components. The problem might not be PSU-related at all. A check with a voltmeter (or prefereably a 'scope to check for ripple) will settle that, though. And if it is a PSU problem, it needn't be capacitor-related. Of course I've replaced capacitors in classic computers, but they don't seem to fail as often as some people like to believe. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Oct 8 13:15:14 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2010 19:15:14 +0100 (BST) Subject: 3D In-Reply-To: from "William Donzelli" at Oct 7, 10 07:22:31 pm Message-ID: > It is amazing how many people have overlooked the 120 Hz refresh rate > aspect of this thread. Making a big frame buffer with very fine > resolution is the easy part - getting the video circuits and the tube > to play along is where things get tough. I am going to assuime that the scan lines are in the horizontal direction as they usually are (but no always, I have worked on at least one display system that scanned vertically!). So the vertical deflection is the slower one. Yhe vertical rate, horizontal rate and number of lines are all related. The main problems are (a) the video bandwidth (determines, essentially, the total number of pixels displayable in a given time) and the horizontal scan rate. Increasing the vertical rate from 60Hz to 120Hz is fairly easy if you don't mind halving the number of lines. This keeps the horizontal scan rate and the video bandwidth essentially unchanged. So as there are 1024 line 60Hz systems around 30 or more years ago, there couild easily have been 512 line 120Hz units. I wonder about electrostaticeally-deflected CRTs. The main disadvantage is that you gnerally have a much smaller deflection angle than with electromagnetic ones, leading to long CRT (base to sreen) for a given screen size. But driving them fast is considerably easier than driving deflection coils fast. Doesn't help with the video bandwidth, I guess. -tony From blkline at attglobal.net Fri Oct 8 14:17:34 2010 From: blkline at attglobal.net (Barry L. Kline) Date: Fri, 08 Oct 2010 15:17:34 -0400 Subject: capacitor aging claim In-Reply-To: References: <4CAE45C0.5070807@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4CAF6E4E.3060004@attglobal.net> On 10/07/2010 06:31 PM, Mike Loewen wrote: >> Getting old sucks. > > It beats the alternative, though... Death doesn't stop the process Mike... you continue to age, it's just that the effect is a bit more troubling. Barry From cclist at sydex.com Fri Oct 8 14:44:30 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 08 Oct 2010 12:44:30 -0700 Subject: capacitor aging claim In-Reply-To: References: , <4CAF5AF5.8030501@brouhaha.com>, Message-ID: <4CAF122E.19001.10D0A63@cclist.sydex.com> On 8 Oct 2010 at 18:43, Alexey Toptygin wrote: > > So, what exactly does "Vitamin Q" mean when speaking about capacitors? > Is it a brand name? An additive they put in the capacitor oil? All > google tells me is that guitar-heads make ridiculous claims about how > it will improve your sound regardless of what equipment you have if > you replace all your capacitors with Vitamin Q... A Sprague brand for hermetically-sealed metal-jacketed oil-in-paper capacitors. Considered to be magic by the guitar folks; but then, so are polystyrene capacitors. My exposure to them was mostly on military equipment. The jacket is steel, so if one explodes, you do get some nasty shrapnel. It happened to me with a rather large one and might have cost me parts of my physiognomy if it had occurred just a few seconds earlier. What was left embedded in the acoustic tile above my bench was an ugly corkscrew of steel. --Chuck From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Oct 8 14:44:38 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 08 Oct 2010 12:44:38 -0700 Subject: capacitor aging claim In-Reply-To: <4CAF6E4E.3060004@attglobal.net> References: <4CAE45C0.5070807@brouhaha.com> <4CAF6E4E.3060004@attglobal.net> Message-ID: <4CAF74A6.6040805@brouhaha.com> Barry wrote: > Death doesn't stop the process Mike... you continue to age, it's just > that the effect is a bit more troubling. I expect it will be substantially *less* troubling. From pcw at mesanet.com Fri Oct 8 14:53:18 2010 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2010 12:53:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: capacitor aging claim In-Reply-To: <4CAF122E.19001.10D0A63@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4CAF5AF5.8030501@brouhaha.com>, <4CAF122E.19001.10D0A63@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 8 Oct 2010, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Date: Fri, 08 Oct 2010 12:44:30 -0700 > From: Chuck Guzis > Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Subject: Re: capacitor aging claim > > On 8 Oct 2010 at 18:43, Alexey Toptygin wrote: > >> >> So, what exactly does "Vitamin Q" mean when speaking about capacitors? >> Is it a brand name? An additive they put in the capacitor oil? All >> google tells me is that guitar-heads make ridiculous claims about how >> it will improve your sound regardless of what equipment you have if >> you replace all your capacitors with Vitamin Q... > > A Sprague brand for hermetically-sealed metal-jacketed oil-in-paper > capacitors. Considered to be magic by the guitar folks; but then, so > are polystyrene capacitors. > > My exposure to them was mostly on military equipment. The jacket is > steel, so if one explodes, you do get some nasty shrapnel. It > happened to me with a rather large one and might have cost me parts > of my physiognomy if it had occurred just a few seconds earlier. > What was left embedded in the acoustic tile above my bench was an > ugly corkscrew of steel. > > --Chuck > VitaminQ is not oil but rather Spragues trade name for PCB Peter Wallace From legalize at xmission.com Fri Oct 8 14:53:29 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 08 Oct 2010 13:53:29 -0600 Subject: capacitor aging claim In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 08 Oct 2010 10:55:01 -0700. <4CAF5AF5.8030501@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: In article <4CAF5AF5.8030501 at brouhaha.com>, Eric Smith writes: > The specific context was a device that's been powered off a relatively > short time. [...] > > I described a different procedure for capacitors that haven't been > powered for a long time, which involved limiting the current into the > capacitor. [...] OK, I see what you're saying now. However, this all seems like a huge PITA compared to just replacing the capacitors. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From ploopster at gmail.com Fri Oct 8 15:02:44 2010 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Fri, 08 Oct 2010 16:02:44 -0400 Subject: 3D In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CAF78E4.7080507@gmail.com> Tony Duell wrote: > Increasing the vertical rate from 60Hz to 120Hz is fairly easy if you > don't mind halving the number of lines. This keeps the horizontal scan > rate and the video bandwidth essentially unchanged. So as there are 1024 > line 60Hz systems around 30 or more years ago, there couild easily have > been 512 line 120Hz units. But, again, this was about HDTV-resolution 120Hz. Peace... Sridhar From cclist at sydex.com Fri Oct 8 15:09:55 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 08 Oct 2010 13:09:55 -0700 Subject: capacitor aging claim In-Reply-To: References: , <4CAF122E.19001.10D0A63@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4CAF1823.2496.1245102@cclist.sydex.com> On 8 Oct 2010 at 12:53, Peter C. Wallace wrote: > VitaminQ is not oil but rather Spragues trade name for PCB Noted. But transformers and capacitors containing PCB were commonly known as containing "oil". I had never heard of PCB until the 1980s. So "paper in oil" is at least correct in the colloquial sense of the word. --Chuck From blkline at attglobal.net Fri Oct 8 15:20:03 2010 From: blkline at attglobal.net (Barry L. Kline) Date: Fri, 08 Oct 2010 16:20:03 -0400 Subject: capacitor aging claim In-Reply-To: <4CAF74A6.6040805@brouhaha.com> References: <4CAE45C0.5070807@brouhaha.com> <4CAF6E4E.3060004@attglobal.net> <4CAF74A6.6040805@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4CAF7CF3.3050501@attglobal.net> On 10/08/2010 03:44 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > Barry wrote: >> Death doesn't stop the process Mike... you continue to age, it's just >> that the effect is a bit more troubling. > I expect it will be substantially *less* troubling. But it does eliminate any possibility of "aging gracefully." From oltmansg at bellsouth.net Fri Oct 8 15:30:23 2010 From: oltmansg at bellsouth.net (geoffrey oltmans) Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2010 13:30:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: capacitor aging claim In-Reply-To: <4CAF7CF3.3050501@attglobal.net> References: <4CAE45C0.5070807@brouhaha.com> <4CAF6E4E.3060004@attglobal.net> <4CAF74A6.6040805@brouhaha.com> <4CAF7CF3.3050501@attglobal.net> Message-ID: <523402.88690.qm@web83904.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> lol! ________________________________ From: Barry L. Kline To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Sent: Fri, October 8, 2010 3:20:03 PM Subject: Re: capacitor aging claim On 10/08/2010 03:44 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > Barry wrote: >> Death doesn't stop the process Mike... you continue to age, it's just >> that the effect is a bit more troubling. > I expect it will be substantially *less* troubling. But it does eliminate any possibility of "aging gracefully." From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Oct 8 15:56:13 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2010 13:56:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 3D In-Reply-To: <4CAF78E4.7080507@gmail.com> References: <4CAF78E4.7080507@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20101008135141.Y70599@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 8 Oct 2010, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > But, again, this was about HDTV-resolution 120Hz. It was?? Sorry. I was talking about CAD displays with Stereo-Graphics "Crystal-Eyes" using Silicon Graphics machines (at 120Hz). I didn't realize that your "high-resolution" remark was referring to "HDTV". BTW, I do remember one crude attempt at 3D that did NOT depend on binocular fusion! -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From legalize at xmission.com Fri Oct 8 16:12:24 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 08 Oct 2010 15:12:24 -0600 Subject: Ted Nelson autobiography In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 08 Oct 2010 15:03:55 -0400. <4CAF6B1B.8000905@snarc.net> Message-ID: In article <4CAF6B1B.8000905 at snarc.net>, Evan Koblentz writes: > New book .... Ted N.'s autobiography .... *http://tinyurl.com/23ewehv* Just browsing through the preview and my first impression is: Man, Ted is really in love with himself. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Oct 8 16:16:28 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2010 14:16:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Compaq luggable, what next? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20101008141340.K70599@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 8 Oct 2010, Tony Duell wrote: > IIRC, 1701 is a hard disk problem. That is correct > I assume the drive spindle is not accesible outside the HDA. If it is, > try giving it a tweak (but don;t blame me if it rips the heads off ;-)) Most of the Hardcards did not have an accessible spindle. But, the "stiction" of those could often be broken loose by shaking it in a circular arc. Which model Compaq luggable is this? From caveguy at sbcglobal.net Fri Oct 8 16:30:27 2010 From: caveguy at sbcglobal.net (Bob Bradlee) Date: Fri, 08 Oct 2010 17:30:27 -0400 Subject: Compaq luggable, what next? In-Reply-To: <20101008141340.K70599@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <270875.59223.qm@smtp103.sbc.mail.re3.yahoo.com> On Fri, 8 Oct 2010 14:16:28 -0700 (PDT), Fred Cisin wrote: >Most of the Hardcards did not have an accessible spindle. But, the >"stiction" of those could often be broken loose by shaking it in a >circular arc. Hold the card in your hand so that a twisting motion of your wrist is in line with center of the platter. So that a sharp twist of your wrist and sudden stop will causes the platter to try continue spinning and break free. Sometimes it is head stiction and some times it is thickening bearing grease. Warming the drive to about 90f has helped the grease problem, but do not cook it! back under my rock :) Bob From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Oct 8 19:52:41 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 08 Oct 2010 17:52:41 -0700 Subject: capacitor aging claim In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CAFBCD9.9020105@brouhaha.com> Richard wrote: > However, this all seems like a huge PITA compared to just replacing > the capacitors. Yes, replacing capacitors is generally easy than reforming them. The main reasons to reform them instead are: 1) If you're trying to preserve an historical artifact 2) If you can't easily or inexpensively get a replacement with comparable specifications. From ajp166 at verizon.net Fri Oct 8 20:59:42 2010 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Fri, 08 Oct 2010 21:59:42 -0400 Subject: capacitor aging claim In-Reply-To: <4CAFBCD9.9020105@brouhaha.com> References: <4CAFBCD9.9020105@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4CAFCC8E.6000502@verizon.net> On 10/08/2010 08:52 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > Richard wrote: >> However, this all seems like a huge PITA compared to just replacing >> the capacitors. > Yes, replacing capacitors is generally easy than reforming them. The > main reasons to reform them instead are: > > 1) If you're trying to preserve an historical artifact > 2) If you can't easily or inexpensively get a replacement with > comparable specifications. > > New capacitors are not "more reliable" than the old until infant mortality is accounted for. Also newer parts may exhibit lower ESR than originals did when new with undesired side effects. the two major failures of electrolytic capacitors are shorted, open (usually dried out). The former is easy to spot. The latter is also easy as the capacitance will be low and they don't form up and there may be evidence of the pressure plug blown or residues indicating leakage The third problem high ESR is also easily checked and weeded out. Life is easier as most of the systems of that generation were linear types and likely had generous margins. Myself I'd not have worried the caps near as much as the transistors used. Some parts then had terrible spec drift over time (germanium). My experience with HV supplies and tube radios/transceivers in the same era is if the caps form they are good. However, resistors used then were not as stable, and some of the caps used for lower values in the .001 to 1uf range were far more suspect. Allison From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Oct 8 21:29:32 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 08 Oct 2010 19:29:32 -0700 Subject: capacitor aging claim In-Reply-To: <4CAFCC8E.6000502@verizon.net> References: <4CAFBCD9.9020105@brouhaha.com> <4CAFCC8E.6000502@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4CAFD38C.9020006@brouhaha.com> allison wrote: > > Myself I'd not have worried the caps near as much as the transistors > used. Some parts then had > terrible spec drift over time (germanium). We weren't too worried about transistors in the logic, as they weren't likely to cause a great deal of damage if they failed. And we weren't worried about transistors in the power supplies, because there weren't any. Most of the PDP-1 power supplies just use ferroresonant transformers with diodes for rectification and big electrolytic capacitors for filtering. We checked the capacitors out of circuit, and we checked the power supplies (with dummy loads) before we ever powered up the PDP-1 with them. We did find one diode in one power supply that had failed shorted. The deflection and HV power supplies for the Type 30G display did contain active circuitry including transistors, and as with the logic power supplies, we tested them before powering up the 30G. We did find some serious issues with these power supplies. The power supply for the photomultiplier tube used by the fiber-optic light pen had also gone bad. The fault was in the transformer, inside a potted assembly. We have temporarily replaced that power supply with a new commercial power supply module, but we might rebuild the original in the future. The most serious fault we found in the machine was that the power control for the Type 30G display was wired *completely* wrong, such that turning it on put line voltage across a closed vane switch intended to sense when the fans were up to speed. This resulted in very high current through the vane switch, well beyond its rating, causing it to weld itself closed, and trip the circuit breaker. It appeared to us that someone had tried to kludge the power control to fix some problem, and failed utterly. We believe that the demos of the PDP-1 system at the Computer Museum in Boston must have been done without the use of the power control, with the power supplies just plugged directly into an outlet strip or the like, since the power control could not possibly have worked. We rewired the power control to match the engineering drawing and replaced the vane switch, and then the power control worked correctly. We know that the deflection power supply for the Type 30 display was missing entirely in Boston; in photos of the demo there it is clearly missing and a bench power supply can be seen. The proper deflection supply for the Type 30 was a product of a third party, rather than being made by DEC. Fortunately CHM had another Type 30 with that power supply, though it was non-functional until we reverse-engineered and repaired it. Throughout the restoration process, and to this day, the team has taken great care to avoid situations where substantial damage could occur to the artifact. Eric From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Oct 8 22:43:31 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 08 Oct 2010 23:43:31 -0400 Subject: EPAY DEC Qbus Z-80 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CAFE4E3.6010206@neurotica.com> On 10/8/10 1:47 PM, Ian King wrote: > DEC also used the 68000 in the DELUA, a Unibus card, and an 8085 to emulate the front panel on a PDP-11/44, again on a Unibus. Don't forget the 8008 (no typo there) on the KY11-LB, the "programmers' front panel" control board for the PDP-11/04 and 11/34. I don't have one in front of me, but isn't there an 80186 on the TQK50? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From doc at vaxen.net Fri Oct 8 23:01:20 2010 From: doc at vaxen.net (Doc Shipley) Date: Fri, 08 Oct 2010 23:01:20 -0500 Subject: EPAY DEC Qbus Z-80 In-Reply-To: <4CAFE4E3.6010206@neurotica.com> References: <4CAFE4E3.6010206@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4CAFE910.2050103@vaxen.net> On 10/8/10 10:43 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 10/8/10 1:47 PM, Ian King wrote: >> DEC also used the 68000 in the DELUA, a Unibus card, and an 8085 to >> emulate the front panel on a PDP-11/44, again on a Unibus. > > Don't forget the 8008 (no typo there) on the KY11-LB, the "programmers' > front panel" control board for the PDP-11/04 and 11/34. > > I don't have one in front of me, but isn't there an 80186 on the TQK50? If memory serves, a lot of the EIDE drives have 80186 on the controller board. I've been told that the '186 made a much better microcontroller than microprocessor. Doc From ploopster at gmail.com Fri Oct 8 23:45:48 2010 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sat, 09 Oct 2010 00:45:48 -0400 Subject: 3D In-Reply-To: <20101008135141.Y70599@shell.lmi.net> References: <4CAF78E4.7080507@gmail.com> <20101008135141.Y70599@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4CAFF37C.4020504@gmail.com> Fred Cisin wrote: >> But, again, this was about HDTV-resolution 120Hz. > > It was?? > Sorry. > > I was talking about CAD displays with Stereo-Graphics "Crystal-Eyes" > using Silicon Graphics machines (at 120Hz). I didn't realize that > your "high-resolution" remark was referring to "HDTV". I think the consensus on what was meant (in the thread) by "high resolution" was a minimum of a megapixel. > BTW, I do remember one crude attempt at 3D that did NOT depend on > binocular fusion! Wow! How? Using a display capable of rendering actual depth? Peace... Sridhar From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Oct 9 00:17:20 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2010 22:17:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 3D In-Reply-To: <4CAFF37C.4020504@gmail.com> References: <4CAF78E4.7080507@gmail.com> <20101008135141.Y70599@shell.lmi.net> <4CAFF37C.4020504@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20101008220000.L70599@shell.lmi.net> > > I was talking about CAD displays with Stereo-Graphics "Crystal-Eyes" > > using Silicon Graphics machines (at 120Hz). I didn't realize that > > your "high-resolution" remark was referring to "HDTV". On Sat, 9 Oct 2010, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > I think the consensus on what was meant (in the thread) by "high > resolution" was a minimum of a megapixel. 20 years ago, there WERE CAD displays (B&W) of megapixel as 120Hz. Highest resolution that _I_ could afford at the time, on PC, was 1280 x 800, which was well short of a megapixel. (B&W Amdek 1280, with proprietary video board, but did have drivers for Windows 3.00, Ventura, Paintbrush, etc. By the time that Windows 3.10 came out (fall 1991), support was already crumbling) > > BTW, I do remember one crude attempt at 3D that did NOT depend on > > binocular fusion! > Wow! How? Using a display capable of rendering actual depth? I warned you that it was CRUDE, . . . You looked into a dark cabinet, in which there was a moving mirror, reflecting a CRT. The image would change according to the position of the mirror. When it was moving fast enough, persistence of vision would give you a visual image in which parts of the image were actually different distances! I think that the images were chosen for maximum suitability. I never saw a commercial implementation attempt. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sat Oct 9 00:17:37 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 9 Oct 2010 01:17:37 -0400 Subject: capacitor aging claim In-Reply-To: References: <4CAF5AF5.8030501@brouhaha.com> <4CAF122E.19001.10D0A63@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > VitaminQ is not oil but rather Spragues trade name for PCB No, it is relatively harmless mineral oil. Sprague PCB caps were something else, and I am far too tired right now to look it up in my catalogs. -- Will From wmaddox at pacbell.net Sat Oct 9 00:43:01 2010 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2010 22:43:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 3D In-Reply-To: <20101008220000.L70599@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <294276.28903.qm@web82607.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- On Fri, 10/8/10, Fred Cisin wrote: > > Wow!? How?? Using a display capable of > rendering actual depth? > > I warned you that it was CRUDE, . . . > You looked into a dark cabinet, in which there was a moving > mirror, > reflecting a CRT.? The image would change according to > the position of the > mirror.? When it was moving fast enough, persistence > of vision would give > you a visual image in which parts of the image were > actually different > distances!???I think that the images were > chosen for maximum suitability. > I never saw a commercial implementation attempt. I once saw a product announcement for a commercial 3D display that used a flexible varifocal mirror. If you've ever seen one of those things that makes a coin inside appear to be floating in space just inside an opening at the top, you've seen how a concave mirror can manipulate apparent depth. From the diagrams/photos, it looked like the device used the acoustic wave from a hi-fi speaker to drive the mirror. The image was provided by a vector display, limited to wire-frame graphics, and there was likely some electronics or software to compensate for the distortion introduced by the optics. It was a big box, somewhat reminiscent of both a radar console and an arcade game. If I recall correctly, the tube was mounted overhead, and you looked down into the mirror at its reflection. --Bill From rdawson16 at hotmail.com Sat Oct 9 01:12:45 2010 From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson) Date: Sat, 9 Oct 2010 01:12:45 -0500 Subject: Compaq luggable, what next? In-Reply-To: <270875.59223.qm@smtp103.sbc.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <20101008141340.K70599@shell.lmi.net>, <270875.59223.qm@smtp103.sbc.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Bob, Int the thread below, I said I already opened her up, manually gave the platters a spin. The drive is working fine and fun to watch the head seeks. Of course, not to trust it but for experiments. I found CPM86 but not much else on the web, do you guys know where a live site of old applications still exist? It looks like most of my favorite archives have been taken down. I should have grabbed the stuff while I saw it, but that was before I had a machine... Randy > From: caveguy at sbcglobal.net > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2010 17:30:27 -0400 > Subject: Re: Compaq luggable, what next? > > On Fri, 8 Oct 2010 14:16:28 -0700 (PDT), Fred Cisin wrote: > > >Most of the Hardcards did not have an accessible spindle. But, the > >"stiction" of those could often be broken loose by shaking it in a > >circular arc. > > Hold the card in your hand so that a twisting motion of your wrist is in line with center of the platter. > So that a sharp twist of your wrist and sudden stop will causes the platter to try continue spinning and break free. > Sometimes it is head stiction and some times it is thickening bearing grease. > > Warming the drive to about 90f has helped the grease problem, but do not cook it! > > back under my rock :) > > Bob > > > From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Oct 9 03:30:26 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 09 Oct 2010 04:30:26 -0400 Subject: 3D In-Reply-To: <20101008220000.L70599@shell.lmi.net> References: <4CAF78E4.7080507@gmail.com> <20101008135141.Y70599@shell.lmi.net> <4CAFF37C.4020504@gmail.com> <20101008220000.L70599@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4CB02822.2060304@neurotica.com> On 10/9/10 1:17 AM, Fred Cisin wrote: >> I think the consensus on what was meant (in the thread) by "high >> resolution" was a minimum of a megapixel. > > 20 years ago, there WERE CAD displays (B&W) of megapixel as 120Hz. > > Highest resolution that _I_ could afford at the time, on PC, was 1280 x > 800, which was well short of a megapixel. (B&W Amdek 1280, with > proprietary video board, but did have drivers for Windows 3.00, Ventura, > Paintbrush, etc. By the time that Windows 3.10 came out (fall 1991), > support was already crumbling) I installed a few dozen Moniterm Viking display subsystems in PCs in the desktop publishing world twenty years ago. They were 1280x960, and had drivers for Ventura. I don't ever recall setting up Windows on one, but then 3.0 didn't come out until 1990 I think, and that was toward the end of my stretch in that world. I don't remember what their refresh rate was. They sure were gorgeous, though. Paper white, razor sharp displays...the small newspaper world loved them. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From holger.veit at iais.fraunhofer.de Fri Oct 8 10:30:59 2010 From: holger.veit at iais.fraunhofer.de (Holger Veit) Date: Fri, 08 Oct 2010 17:30:59 +0200 Subject: EPAY DEC Qbus Z-80 In-Reply-To: <4CAF38BB.6030004@iais.fraunhofer.de> References: <4CAF38BB.6030004@iais.fraunhofer.de> Message-ID: <4CAF3933.2000304@iais.fraunhofer.de> Am 08.10.2010 17:28, schrieb Holger Veit: > Am 08.10.2010 16:20, schrieb Christian Corti: >> On Fri, 8 Oct 2010, Alexander Voropay wrote: >>> JFYI: I have one non-DEC Q-Bus card, a tape controller with Z80 CPU >> >> I have several non-DEC Q-Bus cards with MC68000 and a non-DEC Q-Bus >> machine with MC68020 ;-)) >> >> Christian > > PCS Cadmus, right? > > Regards > Holger From ohh at panix.com Fri Oct 8 10:08:23 2010 From: ohh at panix.com (O. Sharp) Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2010 11:08:23 -0400 (EDT) Subject: capacitor aging claim In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >> The oxide breaks down whenever the capacitor isn't >> powered, but it is an exponential decay effect. Leaving something >> powered off a short while doesn't let it break down too much, and when >> you power it up again, the oxide reforms a little bit, back to where it >> is supposed to be. > > I'd like to see some data/research that supports this. Well, this doesn't specifically mention the "exponential decay effect", but will this help?: http://electrochem.cwru.edu/encycl/art-c04-electr-cap.htm "[...] the capacitor "fill" electrolyte continues the healing work of the original forming electrolyte, repairing and thickening the dielectric locally as required. This healing process is driven by the capacitor's dc leakage current, which is drawn whenever a dc voltage is applied to the capacitor, that is, whenever it is in operation. In fact, electrolytic capacitors often last longer when they are in continuous, mild use that when they are only charged up briefly every year or decade." Feel free to read the entire article if you like, and/or check out some of the links towards the bottom. (I found the Cornell Dubilier article in "Further reading" particularly helpful to me when I needed a good general overview, but alas the link is broken. It's still on the CDE site, though, at www.cde.com/catalogs/AEappGUIDE.pdf .) -O.- From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sat Oct 9 08:15:34 2010 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sat, 9 Oct 2010 14:15:34 +0100 Subject: Repairing Debian on an Alpha 433au In-Reply-To: <00af01cb6336$1212d900$36388b00$@ntlworld.com> References: <00af01cb6336$1212d900$36388b00$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <00c501cb67b4$120fa320$362ee960$@ntlworld.com> I tried changing to DK0 to DK100 but it made no difference and to be honest I did not expect it to make a difference. Clearly there is something wrong with recognising partitions on sdb (DKA200). If I boot off DK100, which is running Debian 3.1 (Kernel 2.4 it seems) it can see sdb3 just fine. I don't get all the boot logging that I get from the corrupted disk though. It would be nice to see what is going on during a good boot on the temporary disk, how do I turn on boot logging? I tried adding "debug loglevel=7" to the boot command but nothing extra was printed. I also thought I would try pointing the temporary disk's kernel at sdb3 like this: b vmlinuz ro initrd=/initrd.img root=/dev/sdb3 But the boot just appeared to hang. I am guessing that it does not help that the corrupted instance uses 2.6.26 kernel and the temporary kernel is 2.4. Sorry but I am not very expert on Linux. I am confused by the fact that it seems to fail to mount sdb3 when booting off sdb3, but succeeds in booting off sda and then reading sdb3. Regards Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Rob Jarratt > Sent: 03 October 2010 21:04 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Repairing Debian on an Alpha 433au > > The 433au I have came with an instance of Debian which has DECnet installed > on it, I am not sure what version of Debian it is. After a power outage the > superblock on DKA200 was corrupted. I managed to install another instance > of Debian (3.1r0) on DK0 and run e2fsck -p on the DKA200 disk to fix it. > However when I try to boot the original Debian instance it says it can't find > /dev/sdb3. In the new instance of Debian I can mount the sdb3 disk without > issue. Below is the output on the console when it fails to boot. > There is a message about the driver sd needing to be updated, but this was a > working system so I am not convinced that is the problem. Can anyone offer > any insight as to why this will still not boot? > > Thanks > > Rob > > aboot: loading uncompressed vmlinuz-2.6.26-1-alpha-generic... > aboot: loading compressed vmlinuz-2.6.26-1-alpha-generic... > aboot: zero-filling 854608 bytes at 0xfffffc000167c980 > aboot: loading initrd (1421885 bytes/1388 blocks) at 0xfffffc0013d70000 > aboot: starting kernel vmlinuz-2.6.26-1-alpha-generic with arguments ro > root=/d > ev/sdb3 console=ttyS0,9600n1 > [ 0.000000] Initializing cgroup subsys cpu > [ 0.000000] Linux version 2.6.26-1-alpha-generic (Debian 2.6.26-13) > (waldi at de > bian.org) (gcc version 4.1.3 20080704 (prerelease) (Debian 4.1.2-24)) #1 Sat > Jan > 10 17:21:47 UTC 2009 > [ 0.000000] Booting GENERIC on Miata using machine vector Miata from > SRM > [ 0.000000] Major Options: MAGIC_SYSRQ > [ 0.000000] Command line: ro root=/dev/sdb3 console=ttyS0,9600n1 > [ 0.000000] memcluster 0, usage 1, start 0, end 236 > [ 0.000000] memcluster 1, usage 0, start 236, end 40959 > [ 0.000000] memcluster 2, usage 1, start 40959, end 40960 > [ 0.000000] freeing pages 236:2048 > [ 0.000000] freeing pages 2985:40959 > [ 0.000000] reserving pages 2985:2986 > [ 0.000000] Initial ramdisk at: 0xfffffc0013d70000 (1421885 bytes) > [ 0.000000] pci: cia revision 1 (pyxis) > [ 0.000000] Built 1 zonelists in Zone order, mobility grouping on. Total > pag > es: 40679 > [ 0.000000] Kernel command line: ro root=/dev/sdb3 console=ttyS0,9600n1 > [ 0.000000] PID hash table entries: 2048 (order: 11, 16384 bytes) > [ 0.000000] HWRPB cycle frequency bogus. Estimated 433127999 Hz > [ 0.000000] Using epoch = 2000 > [4194001.855599] Console: colour VGA+ 80x25 [4194001.855599] console > [ttyS0] enabled [4194003.204231] Dentry cache hash table entries: 65536 > (order: 6, 524288 > bytes) > [4194003.294075] Inode-cache hash table entries: 32768 (order: 5, 262144 > bytes) > [4194003.414192] Memory: 313552k/327672k available (2158k kernel code, > 11952k re served, 3313k data, 304k init) [4194003.551887] Security Framework > initialized [4194003.603645] Capability LSM initialized [4194003.650520] > Mount-cache hash table entries: 512 [4194003.707161] Initializing cgroup > subsys ns [4194003.757942] Initializing cgroup subsys cpuacct > [4194003.813606] Initializing cgroup subsys devices [4194003.877082] > net_namespace: 1208 bytes [4194003.924934] NET: Registered protocol > family 16 [4194003.983528] EISA bus registered [4194004.024543] pci: passed > tb register update test [4194004.081184] pci: passed sg loopback i/o read test > [4194004.139778] pci: passed pte write cache snoop test [4194004.199348] > pci: failed valid tag invalid pte reload test (mcheck; workarou nd available) > [4194004.298957] pci: passed pci machine check test [4194004.353645] pci: > tbia workaround enabled [4194004.403449] pci: enabling save/restore of SRM > state [4194004.468879] PCI: Bridge: 0000:00:14.0 > [4194004.515754] IO window: 8000-8fff > [4194004.557746] MEM window: 0x09000000-0x090fffff > [4194004.614387] PREFETCH window: 0x0000000009100000- > 0x00000000091fffff > [4194004.701301] Linux Plug and Play Support v0.97 (c) Adam Belay > [4194004.785285] NET: Registered protocol family 2 [4194004.850715] IP route > cache hash table entries: 4096 (order: 2, 32768 > bytes) > [4194004.937629] TCP established hash table entries: 16384 (order: 5, 262144 > byt > es) > [4194005.027473] TCP bind hash table entries: 16384 (order: 4, 131072 bytes) > [4194005.109504] TCP: Hash tables configured (established 16384 bind 16384) > [4194005.190558] TCP reno registered [4194005.233527] NET: Registered > protocol family 1 [4194005.289191] checking if image is initramfs... it is > [4194006.371222] Freeing initrd memory: 1388k freed [4194006.430792] VFS: > Disk quotas dquot_6.5.1 [4194006.479620] Dquot-cache hash table entries: > 1024 (order 0, 8192 bytes) [4194006.560675] msgmni has been set to 615 > [4194006.608526] Block layer SCSI generic (bsg) driver version 0.4 loaded > (major > 253) > [4194006.699347] io scheduler noop registered [4194006.748175] io scheduler > anticipatory registered [4194006.805792] io scheduler deadline registered > [4194006.859503] io scheduler cfq registered (default) [4194006.918097] > isapnp: Scanning for PnP cards... > > [4194007.324346] isapnp: No Plug & Play device found [4194007.417120] > Serial: 8250/16550 driver $Revision: 1.90 $ 4 ports, IRQ sharin g enabled > [4194007.512823] serial8250: ttyS0 at I/O 0x3f8 (irq = 4) is a 16550A > [4194007.588018] serial8250: ttyS1 at I/O 0x2f8 (irq = 3) is a 16550A > [4194007.684698] brd: module loaded [4194007.731573] serio: i8042 KBD port > at 0x60,0x64 irq 1 [4194007.793096] serio: i8042 AUX port at 0x60,0x64 irq 12 > [4194007.858526] mice: PS/2 mouse device common for all mice > [4194007.924932] EISA: Probing bus 0 at eisa.0 [4194007.974737] atkbd.c: > keyboard reset failed on isa0060/serio0 [4194008.047979] TCP cubic > registered [4194008.088994] NET: Registered protocol family 17 > [4194008.145635] registered taskstats version 1 [4194008.197393] > drivers/rtc/hctosys.c: unable to open rtc device (rtc0) [4194008.275518] > Freeing unused kernel memory: 304k freed [4194008.352666] atkbd.c: > keyboard reset failed on isa0060/serio1 [4194008.698369] SCSI subsystem > initialized [4194008.765752] qla1280: QLA1040 found on PCI bus 1, dev 9 > [4194009.400517] scsi(0:0): Resetting SCSI BUS [4194012.454227] scsi0 : QLogic > QLA1040 PCI to SCSI Host Adapter > [4194012.454227] Firmware version: 7.65.06, Driver version 3.26 > [4194012.625125] Driver 'sd' needs updating - please use bus_type methods > [4194012.704226] scsi 0:0:0:0: Direct-Access COMPAQ ST32550W > 6415 > PQ: 0 ANSI: 2 > /bin/cat: [4194012.818484] scsi(0:0:0:0): Sync: period 10, offset 12, Wide, Tagg > ed queuing: depth 31 > /sys/block/sdb/dev: No such file or directory Waiting 1 seconds for > /sys/block/sdb/dev to show up > /bin/cat: /sys/block/sdb/dev: No such file or directory Waiting 2 seconds for > /sys/block/sdb/dev to show up > /bin/cat: /sys/block/sdb/dev: No such file or directory Waiting 4 seconds for > /sys/block/sdb/dev to show up [4194018.073364] sd 0:0:0:0: [sda] 4110000 > 512-byte hardware sectors (2104 > MB) > [4194018.160278] sd 0:0:0:0: [sda] Write Protect is off [4194018.223755] sd > 0:0:0:0: [sda] Write cache: disabled, read cache: > enabled, s > upports DPO and FUA > [4194018.332153] sd 0:0:0:0: [sda] 4110000 512-byte hardware sectors (2104 > MB) > [4194018.419067] sd 0:0:0:0: [sda] Write Protect is off [4194018.482544] sd > 0:0:0:0: [sda] Write cache: disabled, read cache: > enabled, s > upports DPO and FUA > [4194018.588012] sda: sda1 sda2 sda3 sda4 [4194018.657348] sd 0:0:0:0: [sda] > Attached SCSI disk > /bin/cat: /sys/block/sdb/dev: No such file or directory Waiting 8 seconds for > /sys/block/sdb/dev to show up > /bin/cat: /sys/block/sdb/dev: No such file or directory Waiting 16 seconds for > /sys/block/sdb/dev to show up > /bin/cat: /sys/block/sdb/dev: No such file or directory Device > /sys/block/sdb/dev seems to be down. > /bin/mknod: missing operand after `b' > Special files require major and minor device numbers. > Try `/bin/mknod --help' for more information. > /bin/cat: /sys/block/sdb/sdb3/dev: No such file or directory Waiting 1 > seconds for /sys/block/sdb/sdb3/dev to show up > /bin/cat: /sys/block/sdb/sdb3/dev: No such file or directory Waiting 2 > seconds for /sys/block/sdb/sdb3/dev to show up > /bin/cat: /sys/block/sdb/sdb3/dev: No such file or directory Waiting 4 > seconds for /sys/block/sdb/sdb3/dev to show up > /bin/cat: /sys/block/sdb/sdb3/dev: No such file or directory Waiting 8 > seconds for /sys/block/sdb/sdb3/dev to show up > /bin/cat: /sys/block/sdb/sdb3/dev: No such file or directory Waiting 16 > seconds for /sys/block/sdb/sdb3/dev to show up > /bin/cat: /sys/block/sdb/sdb3/dev: No such file or directory Device > /sys/block/sdb/sdb3/dev seems to be down. > /bin/mknod[4194075.827241] Kernel panic - not syncing: Attempted to kill > init! > : missing operand after `b' > Special files require major and minor device numbers. > Try `/bin/mknod --help' for more information. > mount: special device /dev/sdb3 does not exist Switching root ... > /usr/lib/yaird/exec/run_init: current directory on the same filesystem as the > ro > ot: Success From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sat Oct 9 08:27:35 2010 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sat, 9 Oct 2010 14:27:35 +0100 Subject: Repairing Debian on an Alpha 433au In-Reply-To: <60BCEA09-6F37-4DF5-A536-255E901F6DA7@heeltoe.com> References: <00af01cb6336$1212d900$36388b00$@ntlworld.com> <201010031615.58957.pat@computer-refuge.org> <00b001cb6341$6e6ca8b0$4b45fa10$@ntlworld.com> (sfid-20101003_172624_408083_FE0BB196) <60BCEA09-6F37-4DF5-A536-255E901F6DA7@heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <00c601cb67b5$bfeccda0$3fc668e0$@ntlworld.com> I tried this and I did not get to a shell. I can examine the files in /etc from the OS on the spare disk, but I am not expert enough to work out where to really look. Regards Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Brad Parker > Sent: 05 October 2010 16:31 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Repairing Debian on an Alpha 433au > > You might try "init=/bin/sh" to keep any init scripts from running. That way > you can piece together what it's trying to do, tracing from /etc/inittab > > Those errors look like the kernel is up but some init script is unhappy. > > -brad > > On Oct 3, 2010, at 5:24 PM, Rob Jarratt wrote: > > > I have actually tried both ways, with and without DK0 plugged in. That > > particular boot I sent the log for had both disks plugged in > > > > Mind you the spare disk that is in there now is DK0. That replaced a > > disk at > > DKA100 which had VMS on it, which I had to take out temporarily to > > make way for the temporary disk to put the second instance of Debian > > on. So when the machine was working I had VMS on DKA100 and Debian on > > DKA200. Now I have the temporary Debian on DK0 and the "proper" > Debian on DKA200. > > > > I will try your suggestion when I next get the chance to test, which > > won't be for a few days now. I may also try putting the VMS disk back > > in so I have > > DKA100 and DKA200 again, not sure if this will make a difference. > > > > Regards > > > > Rob > > > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > >> bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Patrick Finnegan > >> Sent: 03 October 2010 21:16 > >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > >> Subject: Re: Repairing Debian on an Alpha 433au > >> > >> On Sunday, October 03, 2010, Rob Jarratt wrote: > >>> The 433au I have came with an instance of Debian which has DECnet > >>> installed on it, I am not sure what version of Debian it is. After a > >>> power outage the superblock on DKA200 was corrupted. I managed to > >>> install another instance of Debian (3.1r0) on DK0 and run e2fsck -p > >>> on the DKA200 disk to fix it. However when I try to boot the > >>> original Debian instance it says it can't find /dev/sdb3. In the new > >>> instance of Debian I can mount the sdb3 disk without issue. Below is > >>> the output on the console when it fails to boot. There is a message > >>> about the driver sd needing to be updated, but this was a working > >>> system so I am not convinced that is the problem. Can anyone offer > >>> any insight as to why this will still not boot? > >> > >> The kernel is only seeing one disk. By any chance, are you pulling > >> the > > first disk > >> (DKA0?) when you try booting from the 2nd disk (DKA200)? > >> > >> Maybe try telling aboot root=/dev/sda3 for your root device instead. > >> > >> Pat > >> -- > >> Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ > >> The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org > > Brad Parker > Heeltoe Consulting > 781-483-3101 > http://www.heeltoe.com > > From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Oct 9 08:35:05 2010 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 09 Oct 2010 06:35:05 -0700 Subject: US Library of Congress: Copyright is Destroying Historic Audio Message-ID: <4CB06F89.2010608@bitsavers.org> http://www.osnews.com/story/23888/US_Library_of_Congress_Copyright_Is_Destroying_Historic_Audio From zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com Sat Oct 9 09:16:00 2010 From: zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sat, 09 Oct 2010 10:16:00 -0400 Subject: An interesting development in vintage system emulators In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CB07920.5090001@30below.com> On 10/07/2010 09:45 AM, Liam Proven wrote: [[ snippity ]] > Essentially, it's a Spectrum emulator for Windows... [[ snippity ]] > It is a really pleasant environment to work in: you get the pleasure > of working in the old environment, but also the facilities of Windows. > > It may not encompass all the very best of both worlds, but it is the > closest I've ever seen. I really like the way it merges the fun of > playing around with an emulated 1980s 8-bit environment with the > luxuries of a modern GUI OS. Trying to write code with an emulated > Spectrum brings back many of the horrors of working on those machines > for real - lousy editors, tiny screens, poor file-storage, > instability, slowness, etc. > > It strikes me that there's no need for this concept to be limited to > the Spectrum, although that happens to be my favourite 8-bit machine& > the one I'm far and away most familiar with. It would be an > interesting way for emulators of almost any vintage system to develop > - separating display and code editor, enhancing the editor with modern > native-OS facilities while keeping the classic execution and display > environment. It might be a little less applicable to text-only > terminal-based OSs, but not exclusively so, I think. I'd love to see > such an environment for a whole load of the old graphics-oriented > 8-bit home computers of the 1980s, though. Ask and you shall receive... ;-) There is a similar product out there (but more advanced) and it's about to be released in it's 3rd iteration. The 1st generation was called "Portal-09" and it was designed solely around the Tandy CoCo1/2/3. It gives you a Windows editor where you can code in Basic or 6809 assembly language, it had multiple tab files, syntax highlighting, etc. You could save your source code files on the Windows system for easy backups, but when you clicked 1 button, it would assemble your program, save it as either a .ROM or .DSK, boot MESS with the correct parameters to load those .ROM/.DSK files and put you in the full virtual machine for testing, either at "full speed" or at emulated CPU speed. The 2nd generation was called "Rainbow IDE" and the author realized what you did above - why keep it just for the CoCo? He modified his system to easily add other platforms, and with the help of others, he expanded the system to encompass many other systems, even some scientific calculators. Here's the webpage for it: http://www.coco3.com/community/products/rainbow-ide It's a windows application, but he tries to keep it as "compatible" as possible so it can be run in things like WINE & whatnot -- here's the list of Windows OSs it runs on: """ Rainbow IDE is a Multi-Target Integrated Development Environment for Windows 7, Vista, XP, 2000, ME, 98, 95, and LINUX via the Wine system. """ (Of course, for those of us who are primarily Linux based, there's also the option of VirtualBox -- so instead of WINE which is a "fake windows" -- you can run a "real windows" in a fake computer... ;-) The 3rd generation is called "Phoenix IDE" and is very near release (and with this individual's track record of not creating vapor-ware, I would say it probably will be very soon) and is running a preorder price special to help bring it to market. I don't know a ton about it (I've not had time for the hobbies again until recently, so I've been out of the "scene") but it looks interesting: http://www.coco3.com/community/upcoming-phoenix-ide The author's name is Roger Taylor and as he works for UPS and is quite busy himself, so the fact that the applications he writes are amazingly good is a testament to his abilities. I'd used Portal-09 quite a bit & loved it; I purchased and tinkered with Rainbow IDE, but that was very near the time of 1) eliminating all my Windows boxes at home, and 2) the stark reduction of spare time that I'm just now recovering from. Check it out... and tell him "Merch" sent ya! ;-) Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger From pcw at mesanet.com Sat Oct 9 09:18:18 2010 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Sat, 9 Oct 2010 07:18:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: capacitor aging claim In-Reply-To: References: <4CAF5AF5.8030501@brouhaha.com> <4CAF122E.19001.10D0A63@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 9 Oct 2010, William Donzelli wrote: > Date: Sat, 9 Oct 2010 01:17:37 -0400 > From: William Donzelli > Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Subject: Re: capacitor aging claim > >> VitaminQ is not oil but rather Spragues trade name for PCB > > No, it is relatively harmless mineral oil. Sprague PCB caps were > something else, and I am far too tired right now to look it up in my > catalogs. > > -- > Will > Maybe its a vintage thing. I had some WW2 vintage 10 UF @ 600V VitaminQ capacitors that definately contained PCBs Peter Wallace Mesa Electronics From lproven at gmail.com Sat Oct 9 10:06:19 2010 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sat, 9 Oct 2010 16:06:19 +0100 Subject: An interesting development in vintage system emulators In-Reply-To: <4CB07920.5090001@30below.com> References: <4CB07920.5090001@30below.com> Message-ID: On 9 October 2010 15:16, Roger Merchberger wrote: > On 10/07/2010 09:45 AM, Liam Proven wrote: > > [[ snippity ]] > >> Essentially, it's a Spectrum emulator for Windows... > > [[ snippity ]] > >> It is a really pleasant environment to work in: you get the pleasure >> of working in the old environment, but also the facilities of Windows. >> >> It may not encompass all the very best of both worlds, but it is the >> closest I've ever seen. I really like the way it merges the fun of >> playing around with an emulated 1980s 8-bit environment with the >> luxuries of a modern GUI OS. Trying to write code with an emulated >> Spectrum brings back many of the horrors of working on those machines >> for real - lousy editors, tiny screens, poor file-storage, >> instability, slowness, etc. >> >> It strikes me that there's no need for this concept to be limited to >> the Spectrum, although that happens to be my favourite 8-bit machine& >> the one I'm far and away most familiar with. It would be an >> interesting way for emulators of almost any vintage system to develop >> - separating display and code editor, enhancing the editor with modern >> native-OS facilities while keeping the classic execution and display >> environment. It might be a little less applicable to text-only >> terminal-based OSs, but not exclusively so, I think. I'd love to see >> such an environment for a whole load of the old graphics-oriented >> 8-bit home computers of the 1980s, though. > > Ask and you shall receive... ;-) There is a similar product out there (but > more advanced) and it's about to be released in it's 3rd iteration. > > The 1st generation was called "Portal-09" and it was designed solely around > the Tandy CoCo1/2/3. It gives you a Windows editor where you can code in > Basic or 6809 assembly language, it had multiple tab files, syntax > highlighting, etc. You could save your source code files on the Windows > system for easy backups, but when you clicked 1 button, it would assemble > your program, save it as either a .ROM or .DSK, boot MESS with the correct > parameters to load those .ROM/.DSK files and put you in the full virtual > machine for testing, either at "full speed" or at emulated CPU speed. > > The 2nd generation was called "Rainbow IDE" and the author realized what you > did above - why keep it just for the CoCo? He modified his system to easily > add other platforms, and with the help of others, he expanded the system to > encompass many other systems, even some scientific calculators. Here's the > webpage for it: > > http://www.coco3.com/community/products/rainbow-ide > > It's a windows application, but he tries to keep it as "compatible" as > possible so it can be run in things like WINE & whatnot -- here's the list > of Windows OSs it runs on: > > """ Rainbow IDE is a Multi-Target Integrated Development Environment for > Windows 7, Vista, XP, 2000, ME, 98, 95, and LINUX via the Wine system. """ > > (Of course, for those of us who are primarily Linux based, there's also the > option of VirtualBox -- so instead of WINE which is a "fake windows" -- you > can run a "real windows" in a fake computer... ;-) > > > The 3rd generation is called "Phoenix IDE" and is very near release (and > with this individual's track record of not creating vapor-ware, I would say > it probably will be very soon) and is running a preorder price special to > help bring it to market. I don't know a ton about it (I've not had time for > the hobbies again until recently, so I've been out of the "scene") but it > looks interesting: > > http://www.coco3.com/community/upcoming-phoenix-ide > > The author's name is Roger Taylor and as he works for UPS and is quite busy > himself, so the fact that the applications he writes are amazingly good is a > testament to his abilities. I'd used Portal-09 quite a bit & loved it; I > purchased and tinkered with Rainbow IDE, but that was very near the time of > 1) eliminating all my Windows boxes at home, and 2) the stark reduction of > spare time that I'm just now recovering from. > > Check it out... and tell him "Merch" sent ya! ;-) > > Laterz, > Roger "Merch" Merchberger Hey, cool, thanks for the link - I shall take a look. I never had much experience with the American 8-bit models - most of them were seriously expensive over here in the UK, at least until relatively late in the '80s when they were being replaced by the 16-bitters. (So instead we got relatively expensive American 16-bitters. :?/ ) Myself, I held fire and waited a bit then bought a much-much-more-bang-for-the-buck British 32-bitter, which for the price of an Amiga 1200 with a 2nd floppy drive gave me a 32-bit machine with a 20MB hard disk and a monitor. I guess the other 8-bit machines I'd like to play with this way would be a SAM Coup?, Timex-Sinclair 2068 and BBC Micro... -- Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sat Oct 9 12:51:56 2010 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sat, 9 Oct 2010 18:51:56 +0100 Subject: Repairing Debian on an Alpha 433au In-Reply-To: <00c501cb67b4$120fa320$362ee960$@ntlworld.com> References: <00af01cb6336$1212d900$36388b00$@ntlworld.com> <00c501cb67b4$120fa320$362ee960$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <00cc01cb67da$abb1f890$0315e9b0$@ntlworld.com> One more interesting fact. I got a Debian 5.06 install CD and tried that. It could not detect the CD-ROM drive, but I let it drop to a shell. In there it could see /dev/sda3, but not /dev/sdb3, in fact there were no /dev /sdb* files at all. So it would appear not to recognise the drive at all. Regards Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Rob Jarratt > Sent: 09 October 2010 14:16 > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > Subject: RE: Repairing Debian on an Alpha 433au > > I tried changing to DK0 to DK100 but it made no difference and to be honest I > did not expect it to make a difference. > > Clearly there is something wrong with recognising partitions on sdb > (DKA200). If I boot off DK100, which is running Debian 3.1 (Kernel 2.4 it > seems) it can see sdb3 just fine. I don't get all the boot logging that I get from > the corrupted disk though. It would be nice to see what is going on during a > good boot on the temporary disk, how do I turn on boot logging? I tried > adding "debug loglevel=7" to the boot command but nothing extra was > printed. > > I also thought I would try pointing the temporary disk's kernel at sdb3 like > this: > > b vmlinuz ro initrd=/initrd.img root=/dev/sdb3 > > But the boot just appeared to hang. I am guessing that it does not help that > the corrupted instance uses 2.6.26 kernel and the temporary kernel is 2.4. > > Sorry but I am not very expert on Linux. I am confused by the fact that it > seems to fail to mount sdb3 when booting off sdb3, but succeeds in booting > off sda and then reading sdb3. > > Regards > > Rob > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Rob Jarratt > > Sent: 03 October 2010 21:04 > > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Repairing Debian on an Alpha 433au > > > > The 433au I have came with an instance of Debian which has DECnet > installed > > on it, I am not sure what version of Debian it is. After a power > > outage > the > > superblock on DKA200 was corrupted. I managed to install another > > instance of Debian (3.1r0) on DK0 and run e2fsck -p on the DKA200 disk to > fix it. > > However when I try to boot the original Debian instance it says it > > can't > find > > /dev/sdb3. In the new instance of Debian I can mount the sdb3 disk > > without issue. Below is the output on the console when it fails to boot. > > There is a message about the driver sd needing to be updated, but this > > was > a > > working system so I am not convinced that is the problem. Can anyone > > offer any insight as to why this will still not boot? > > > > Thanks > > > > Rob > > > > aboot: loading uncompressed vmlinuz-2.6.26-1-alpha-generic... > > aboot: loading compressed vmlinuz-2.6.26-1-alpha-generic... > > aboot: zero-filling 854608 bytes at 0xfffffc000167c980 > > aboot: loading initrd (1421885 bytes/1388 blocks) at > > 0xfffffc0013d70000 > > aboot: starting kernel vmlinuz-2.6.26-1-alpha-generic with arguments > > ro root=/d > > ev/sdb3 console=ttyS0,9600n1 > > [ 0.000000] Initializing cgroup subsys cpu > > [ 0.000000] Linux version 2.6.26-1-alpha-generic (Debian 2.6.26-13) > > (waldi at de > > bian.org) (gcc version 4.1.3 20080704 (prerelease) (Debian 4.1.2-24)) > > #1 > Sat > > Jan > > 10 17:21:47 UTC 2009 > > [ 0.000000] Booting GENERIC on Miata using machine vector Miata from > > SRM > > [ 0.000000] Major Options: MAGIC_SYSRQ > > [ 0.000000] Command line: ro root=/dev/sdb3 console=ttyS0,9600n1 > > [ 0.000000] memcluster 0, usage 1, start 0, end 236 > > [ 0.000000] memcluster 1, usage 0, start 236, end 40959 > > [ 0.000000] memcluster 2, usage 1, start 40959, end 40960 > > [ 0.000000] freeing pages 236:2048 > > [ 0.000000] freeing pages 2985:40959 > > [ 0.000000] reserving pages 2985:2986 > > [ 0.000000] Initial ramdisk at: 0xfffffc0013d70000 (1421885 bytes) > > [ 0.000000] pci: cia revision 1 (pyxis) > > [ 0.000000] Built 1 zonelists in Zone order, mobility grouping on. > Total > > pag > > es: 40679 > > [ 0.000000] Kernel command line: ro root=/dev/sdb3 > console=ttyS0,9600n1 > > [ 0.000000] PID hash table entries: 2048 (order: 11, 16384 bytes) > > [ 0.000000] HWRPB cycle frequency bogus. Estimated 433127999 Hz > > [ 0.000000] Using epoch = 2000 > > [4194001.855599] Console: colour VGA+ 80x25 [4194001.855599] console > > [ttyS0] enabled [4194003.204231] Dentry cache hash table entries: > > 65536 > > (order: 6, 524288 > > bytes) > > [4194003.294075] Inode-cache hash table entries: 32768 (order: 5, > > 262144 > > bytes) > > [4194003.414192] Memory: 313552k/327672k available (2158k kernel code, > > 11952k re served, 3313k data, 304k init) [4194003.551887] Security > Framework > > initialized [4194003.603645] Capability LSM initialized > > [4194003.650520] Mount-cache hash table entries: 512 [4194003.707161] > > Initializing cgroup subsys ns [4194003.757942] Initializing cgroup > > subsys cpuacct [4194003.813606] Initializing cgroup subsys devices > > [4194003.877082] > > net_namespace: 1208 bytes [4194003.924934] NET: Registered protocol > > family 16 [4194003.983528] EISA bus registered [4194004.024543] pci: > passed > > tb register update test [4194004.081184] pci: passed sg loopback i/o > > read > test > > [4194004.139778] pci: passed pte write cache snoop test > > [4194004.199348] > > pci: failed valid tag invalid pte reload test (mcheck; workarou nd > available) > > [4194004.298957] pci: passed pci machine check test [4194004.353645] pci: > > tbia workaround enabled [4194004.403449] pci: enabling save/restore of > > SRM state [4194004.468879] PCI: Bridge: 0000:00:14.0 > > [4194004.515754] IO window: 8000-8fff > > [4194004.557746] MEM window: 0x09000000-0x090fffff > > [4194004.614387] PREFETCH window: 0x0000000009100000- > > 0x00000000091fffff > > [4194004.701301] Linux Plug and Play Support v0.97 (c) Adam Belay > > [4194004.785285] NET: Registered protocol family 2 [4194004.850715] IP > route > > cache hash table entries: 4096 (order: 2, 32768 > > bytes) > > [4194004.937629] TCP established hash table entries: 16384 (order: 5, > 262144 > > byt > > es) > > [4194005.027473] TCP bind hash table entries: 16384 (order: 4, 131072 > bytes) > > [4194005.109504] TCP: Hash tables configured (established 16384 bind > 16384) > > [4194005.190558] TCP reno registered [4194005.233527] NET: Registered > > protocol family 1 [4194005.289191] checking if image is initramfs... > > it is [4194006.371222] Freeing initrd memory: 1388k freed [4194006.430792] > VFS: > > Disk quotas dquot_6.5.1 [4194006.479620] Dquot-cache hash table entries: > > 1024 (order 0, 8192 bytes) [4194006.560675] msgmni has been set to 615 > > [4194006.608526] Block layer SCSI generic (bsg) driver version 0.4 > > loaded (major > > 253) > > [4194006.699347] io scheduler noop registered [4194006.748175] io > scheduler > > anticipatory registered [4194006.805792] io scheduler deadline > > registered [4194006.859503] io scheduler cfq registered (default) > > [4194006.918097] > > isapnp: Scanning for PnP cards... > > > > [4194007.324346] isapnp: No Plug & Play device found [4194007.417120] > > Serial: 8250/16550 driver $Revision: 1.90 $ 4 ports, IRQ sharin g > > enabled [4194007.512823] serial8250: ttyS0 at I/O 0x3f8 (irq = 4) is a > > 16550A [4194007.588018] serial8250: ttyS1 at I/O 0x2f8 (irq = 3) is a > > 16550A [4194007.684698] brd: module loaded [4194007.731573] serio: > > i8042 KBD port at 0x60,0x64 irq 1 [4194007.793096] serio: i8042 AUX > > port at 0x60,0x64 irq > 12 > > [4194007.858526] mice: PS/2 mouse device common for all mice > > [4194007.924932] EISA: Probing bus 0 at eisa.0 [4194007.974737] atkbd.c: > > keyboard reset failed on isa0060/serio0 [4194008.047979] TCP cubic > > registered [4194008.088994] NET: Registered protocol family 17 > > [4194008.145635] registered taskstats version 1 [4194008.197393] > > drivers/rtc/hctosys.c: unable to open rtc device (rtc0) > > [4194008.275518] Freeing unused kernel memory: 304k freed > [4194008.352666] atkbd.c: > > keyboard reset failed on isa0060/serio1 [4194008.698369] SCSI > > subsystem initialized [4194008.765752] qla1280: QLA1040 found on PCI > > bus 1, dev 9 [4194009.400517] scsi(0:0): Resetting SCSI BUS > [4194012.454227] scsi0 : > QLogic > > QLA1040 PCI to SCSI Host Adapter > > [4194012.454227] Firmware version: 7.65.06, Driver version 3.26 > > [4194012.625125] Driver 'sd' needs updating - please use bus_type > methods > > [4194012.704226] scsi 0:0:0:0: Direct-Access COMPAQ ST32550W > > 6415 > > PQ: 0 ANSI: 2 > > /bin/cat: [4194012.818484] scsi(0:0:0:0): Sync: period 10, offset 12, > Wide, Tagg > > ed queuing: depth 31 > > /sys/block/sdb/dev: No such file or directory Waiting 1 seconds for > > /sys/block/sdb/dev to show up > > /bin/cat: /sys/block/sdb/dev: No such file or directory Waiting 2 > > seconds > for > > /sys/block/sdb/dev to show up > > /bin/cat: /sys/block/sdb/dev: No such file or directory Waiting 4 > > seconds > for > > /sys/block/sdb/dev to show up [4194018.073364] sd 0:0:0:0: [sda] > > 4110000 512-byte hardware sectors (2104 > > MB) > > [4194018.160278] sd 0:0:0:0: [sda] Write Protect is off > > [4194018.223755] > sd > > 0:0:0:0: [sda] Write cache: disabled, read cache: > > enabled, s > > upports DPO and FUA > > [4194018.332153] sd 0:0:0:0: [sda] 4110000 512-byte hardware sectors > > (2104 > > MB) > > [4194018.419067] sd 0:0:0:0: [sda] Write Protect is off > > [4194018.482544] > sd > > 0:0:0:0: [sda] Write cache: disabled, read cache: > > enabled, s > > upports DPO and FUA > > [4194018.588012] sda: sda1 sda2 sda3 sda4 [4194018.657348] sd 0:0:0:0: > [sda] > > Attached SCSI disk > > /bin/cat: /sys/block/sdb/dev: No such file or directory Waiting 8 > > seconds > for > > /sys/block/sdb/dev to show up > > /bin/cat: /sys/block/sdb/dev: No such file or directory Waiting 16 > > seconds > for > > /sys/block/sdb/dev to show up > > /bin/cat: /sys/block/sdb/dev: No such file or directory Device > > /sys/block/sdb/dev seems to be down. > > /bin/mknod: missing operand after `b' > > Special files require major and minor device numbers. > > Try `/bin/mknod --help' for more information. > > /bin/cat: /sys/block/sdb/sdb3/dev: No such file or directory Waiting 1 > > seconds for /sys/block/sdb/sdb3/dev to show up > > /bin/cat: /sys/block/sdb/sdb3/dev: No such file or directory Waiting 2 > > seconds for /sys/block/sdb/sdb3/dev to show up > > /bin/cat: /sys/block/sdb/sdb3/dev: No such file or directory Waiting 4 > > seconds for /sys/block/sdb/sdb3/dev to show up > > /bin/cat: /sys/block/sdb/sdb3/dev: No such file or directory Waiting 8 > > seconds for /sys/block/sdb/sdb3/dev to show up > > /bin/cat: /sys/block/sdb/sdb3/dev: No such file or directory Waiting > > 16 seconds for /sys/block/sdb/sdb3/dev to show up > > /bin/cat: /sys/block/sdb/sdb3/dev: No such file or directory Device > > /sys/block/sdb/sdb3/dev seems to be down. > > /bin/mknod[4194075.827241] Kernel panic - not syncing: Attempted to > > kill init! > > : missing operand after `b' > > Special files require major and minor device numbers. > > Try `/bin/mknod --help' for more information. > > mount: special device /dev/sdb3 does not exist Switching root ... > > /usr/lib/yaird/exec/run_init: current directory on the same filesystem > > as > the > > ro > > ot: Success From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Oct 9 14:21:40 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 09 Oct 2010 15:21:40 -0400 Subject: Looking for IBM 5250 TwinAx terminal... In-Reply-To: References: <4CAA21AE.4030704@neurotica.com><4B8E7E4F9E0C4357B5611432F6E26B95@RodsDevSystem> <4CAAC9C8.5060801@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4CB0C0C4.4080308@neurotica.com> On 10/6/10 1:58 AM, Rod Smallwood wrote: > Well at least it's found a good home. Being a DEC man I know little about > IBM systems except 6150 AIX boxes. Ahh, RTs! I have two here, one desktop and one pedestal. I really like those machines for some reason. Like you, I've always been a DEC guy primarily, but over the past few years I've branched out a bit, mainly in the IBM direction. They have some fascinating stuff. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sat Oct 9 15:59:51 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 9 Oct 2010 16:59:51 -0400 Subject: capacitor aging claim In-Reply-To: References: <4CAF5AF5.8030501@brouhaha.com> <4CAF122E.19001.10D0A63@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > Maybe its a vintage thing. I had some WW2 vintage 10 UF @ 600V VitaminQ > capacitors that definately contained PCBs What evidence do you have? It is a very common belief - even the hazmat guys assume so (and every time they have to be shown that they are wrong). Also, I do not think there were Vitamin Qs during World War 2. -- Will From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Sat Oct 9 16:03:59 2010 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Sat, 9 Oct 2010 14:03:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: P112 project scrubbed Message-ID: I'm sorry, but the effort to make a new run of P112 kits has been scrubbed. I was unable to get more than 12 kits presold when I needed at least 35 to go forward and get the boards made. Since I'm so far behind 35, I decided to start the refunds now. Those of you who preordered should be seeing the refunds roll in over the next week as funds get transferred from my bank account to Paypal. This won't be the last of the P112. I hope to be able to do a run a few months after I land a new job. Hopefully I'll have the money to finance the project without the need to take preorders. Thanks for all your faith in me and interest in this project. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From pcw at mesanet.com Sat Oct 9 16:30:00 2010 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Sat, 9 Oct 2010 14:30:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: capacitor aging claim In-Reply-To: References: <4CAF5AF5.8030501@brouhaha.com> <4CAF122E.19001.10D0A63@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 9 Oct 2010, William Donzelli wrote: > Date: Sat, 9 Oct 2010 16:59:51 -0400 > From: William Donzelli > Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Subject: Re: capacitor aging claim > >> Maybe its a vintage thing. I had some WW2 vintage 10 UF @ 600V VitaminQ >> capacitors that definately contained PCBs > > What evidence do you have? It is a very common belief - even the > hazmat guys assume so (and every time they have to be shown that they > are wrong). > > Also, I do not think there were Vitamin Qs during World War 2. > > -- > Will > I remember draining bad capacitors when I was quite young (I abused the 600V capacitors by using them for strobe lights charged to 2 KV) And am pretty sure that the Vitamin Q ones were PCB (light green slightly sweet spelling fluid) But is has been many years so I could be wrong. Peter Wallace From nigel.d.williams at gmail.com Sat Oct 9 18:01:52 2010 From: nigel.d.williams at gmail.com (Nigel Williams) Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2010 10:01:52 +1100 Subject: Looking for IBM 5250 TwinAx terminal in Australia Message-ID: Cloning JPs request but I'm seeking Twinax terminals in Australia please. Having acquired a clutch of AS/400s, my only true IBM 3197 twinax terminal is dead. If anyone knows the trick about how to open the video section of an IBM 3197 I would be interested in knowing. I removed the two self-thread screws from the bottom which seems to release part of the case but something still holds the top, presumably needs some leverage to unlock. Aside: I was intrigued to see that the logic of the IBM 3197 is powered by an Intel 8088. From evan at snarc.net Sun Oct 10 01:07:35 2010 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2010 02:07:35 -0400 Subject: Monrobot Message-ID: <4CB15827.7040300@snarc.net> Does anyone know of a good history, online or in print, regarding the Monrobot computers? I found some technical info at Bitsavers and on Ed Thelen's site, but I'm looking for info about the people behind the company in the 1950s. From evan at snarc.net Sun Oct 10 01:47:34 2010 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2010 02:47:34 -0400 Subject: Monrobot In-Reply-To: <4CB15827.7040300@snarc.net> References: <4CB15827.7040300@snarc.net> Message-ID: <4CB16186.9020703@snarc.net> > Does anyone know of a good history, online or in print, regarding the > Monrobot computers? I found some technical info at Bitsavers and on > Ed Thelen's site, but I'm looking for info about the people behind the > company in the 1950s. Found what I was looking for at http://drum.lib.umd.edu/bitstream/1903/10504/1/Chinoy_umd_0117E_11395.pdf -- lots of Monrobot company history on pages 226-242 (of the document, not the pdf page numbers). From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Oct 10 12:38:10 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2010 18:38:10 +0100 (BST) Subject: OT : RJ45 Telecom wiring Message-ID: Can anyone suggest URLs, etc that give the wiring of RJ45 sockets. in telecom applications. Not 10bse (which from what I understand are not strictly RJ45's anyway), or ISDN, but older telecoms. The web pages I've found soe far give the wiring for up to 4 POTS lines on an RJ45, which is, again, not what I am looking for... In particular : What pins would I expect to find a normal 'switched' telephone line on (4 and 5, I think?) What about a 2-wire leased line ('private circuit')? Or a 4-wire one? Why would there be a resistor of about 866 ohms connected between pins 7 and 8? Why would pins 3 anf 6 be shorted together? In case anyone's wondering, I've bought a non-working telephone line simulator, and am trying to make sense of the numerous relays connected to the telephone connectors, which are RJ45s (genuine RJ45s, with the extra polarisation notch). Books on US telcoms practicce are few and far between over here... Thanks in advance for any help... -tony From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Sun Oct 10 13:26:13 2010 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2010 20:26:13 +0200 (CEST) Subject: EPAY DEC Qbus Z-80 In-Reply-To: <4CAF3933.2000304@iais.fraunhofer.de> References: <4CAF38BB.6030004@iais.fraunhofer.de> <4CAF3933.2000304@iais.fraunhofer.de> Message-ID: On Fri, 8 Oct 2010, Holger Veit wrote: >>> I have several non-DEC Q-Bus cards with MC68000 and a non-DEC Q-Bus >>> machine with MC68020 ;-)) >>> >> PCS Cadmus, right? That's right. It would be a nice project to write some RT11 or BSD drivers for the I/O card (SCSI, serial, ethernet) to use the board in a PDP11. But that would involve some reverse engineering of the Munix system. Christian From keithvz at verizon.net Sun Oct 10 13:44:59 2010 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith) Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2010 14:44:59 -0400 Subject: OT : RJ45 Telecom wiring In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CB209AB.4080701@verizon.net> On 10/10/2010 1:38 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > Can anyone suggest URLs, etc that give the wiring of RJ45 sockets. in > telecom applications. Not 10bse (which from what I understand are not > strictly RJ45's anyway), or ISDN, but older telecoms. All of the recent(last 10 or 12 years) ethernet standards all use 8-wire RJ45's. They are as strict of RJ45's as they can be. This doesn't imply that all standards require all 8 wires, but they use 8 position contacts, plugs, jacks, standard cabling and so on. > The web pages I've found soe far give the wiring for up to 4 POTS lines > on an RJ45, which is, again, not what I am looking for... > > What pins would I expect to find a normal 'switched' telephone line on (4 > and 5, I think?) Can you help us out what the difference is between POTS and what you are calling normal switched telephone lines? If you are talking about regular telephone service, as delivered in the US over copper, then "public switched telephone network" (PSTN) is equivalent to Plain Old Telephone Service(POTS). The center pair of wires are normally the first tip & ring, with the next outside pair being the second line. On an RJ11, this is 2&3(normally green & red) for the first, 1&4 for the second.(normally black and yellow) The telco's will normally not deliver or install an RJ-45 for regular telephone service --- but there's no reason why they couldn't -- as long as you used compatible cables pinned & paired properly. > What about a 2-wire leased line ('private circuit')? Or a 4-wire one? Well the 4-wire leased circuits I can think of are traditionally 64kbps DDS circuits(a single DS0), or a T1. These also use an RJ45 (although the nomenclature for telcos is usually RJ48 with minor real technical difference and no practical differences), 1&2 and 7&8 on the DDS, and 1&2 and 4&5 on the T1. The telcos will lease what we would call dry-pairs(or sometimes alarm circuits) for connecting two locations together through the CO, with no real service (outside of maintenance) on the circuit itself. > Why would there be a resistor of about 866 ohms connected between pins 7 > and 8? > > Why would pins 3 anf 6 be shorted together? I don't have an answer for this. The EIA/TIA has standards called T568A and T568B which specify color pair connects to which pins on the connector. T568B is normally the networking standard, and A is normally telco standard. (these standards switch the green and orange pairs) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T568A#T568A_and_T568B_termination http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T-carrier http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pstn Since most popular circuits (all of what you've mentioned and more) use the same pairing(1&2, 3&6, 4&5, 7&8), once you've installed and wired your jacks, patch panels, punch downs, cables this way ---- everything should just work. Which signals travel over which pairs obviously doesn't matter, outside of keeping a consistent premise cabling standards for future A/M/C's. Does this help? Keith From cclist at sydex.com Sun Oct 10 13:52:05 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2010 11:52:05 -0700 Subject: OT : RJ45 Telecom wiring In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CB1A8E5.9852.958008@cclist.sydex.com> I think you're asking about USOC RJ45S, which has nothing to do with network wiring. I've never seen a true one in the wild, but they were used for data hookups, apparently. Perhaps this will help: http://www.suttleonline.com/pdfs/misc/USOC_Guide.pdf and a bit more on programming resistor values: http://www.shout.net/~wildixon/telecom/rj/68_502.html --Chuck From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Oct 10 14:01:47 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2010 12:01:47 -0700 Subject: OT : RJ45 Telecom wiring In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CB20D9B.5040009@brouhaha.com> On 10/10/2010 10:38 AM, Tony Duell wrote: > What pins would I expect to find a normal 'switched' telephone line on (4 > and 5, I think?) Yes, the middle two. > What about a 2-wire leased line ('private circuit')? Also the middle two. > Or a 4-wire one? Not sure about voice service. For a T1 digital line, the pairs would be 1/2 and 7/8. > Why would there be a resistor of about 866 ohms connected between pins 7 > and 8? That's to program the transmit power level of the device plugged into the socket. Typically used on leased lines. On a real installation of that type, the resistor value is chosen by the installer to compensate for loop length. > Why would pins 3 anf 6 be shorted together? I'm not sure specifically about about 3 and 6, but on some jacks there are one or two shorting bars to preserve continuity of a loop when there is no device plugged into the jack. This is used in RJ41X service, typically for alarms, because the alarm system can seize the loop (disconnect it from the downstream phones). When nothing is plugged into the jack, the shorting bar provides loop continuity to the phones. > In case anyone's wondering, I've bought a non-working telephone line > simulator, and am trying to make sense of the numerous relays connected > to the telephone connectors, which are RJ45s (genuine RJ45s, with the > extra polarisation notch). Note that RJxx is a USOC (Uniform Service Ordering Code), and defines the type of service as well as what jack is used: 4-position, 6-position, 8-position, with or without shorting bars, how it is wired, etc. While an RJ45 service uses an 8-position jack, an 8-position jack is not in and of itself an RJ45, despite everyone misusing the USOC code in that way. An 8-position jack could also be used for RJ31X service, RJ41X, RJ48C, RJ48S, RJ48X, RJ61X, etc. Similarly, a 6-position jack may be used by RJ11 service, RJ14 service, or various others. > Books on US telcoms practicce are few and far between over here... The same seems to be true here in the US. Oh, there are plenty of books that will tell you how a basic POTS service works, but little beyond that. The real info was in the "Bell System Practice" documents, which were not available to customers, and in Bell standards, which were. After the divestiture, the standards went to Bellcore, which is now Telcordia, and the standards cost a LOT of money. Eric From cclist at sydex.com Sun Oct 10 14:02:14 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2010 12:02:14 -0700 Subject: OT : RJ45 Telecom wiring In-Reply-To: <4CB1A8E5.9852.958008@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4CB1A8E5.9852.958008@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4CB1AB46.30613.9EC96A@cclist.sydex.com> I should add that the RJ45S is an 8-position connector in the same size as the ethernet variety RJ45, but it's keyed and so cannot be inserted into an RJ45 ethernet socket. However an RJ45 plug *can* be plugged into an RJ45S socket. --Chuck From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Sun Oct 10 14:06:08 2010 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2010 14:06:08 -0500 Subject: Compaq luggable, what next? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CB20EA0.7060600@brutman.com> For $25 it's a steal. I liked the Surplusgizmos site, but I couldn't find the other machine. ;-0 As for what to do ... - The XT-IDE card (details can be found over at the Vintage Computer Forum) allows you to put a modern IDE drive in the machine, which probably cuts down on power consumption and improves your reliability. - A good Ethernet card from the era (3COM 3C503, NE1000, or other well known 8 bit cards) will get you 'online' in a limited way. I have written DHCP, Telnet, FTP, and IRC clients that run on machines of that vintage. Also available are netcat, PING, and SNTP (Simple Network Time Protocol). Details over at http://www.brutman.com/mTCP . I wouldn't invest too much time into a DOS based web browser - if they run they are horribly disappointing. Mike From jplist2008 at kiwigeek.com Sun Oct 10 14:14:05 2010 From: jplist2008 at kiwigeek.com (JP Hindin) Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2010 14:14:05 -0500 (CDT) Subject: VTL/Dutchess logic Message-ID: Greetings; I'm delving deeply into the manuals that came with my IBM System/34 and in the Core section it mentions that the logic is "VTL and Dutchess". TTL, ECL, CMOS sure... but I've never heard of VTL or Dutchess, and Google doesn't seem to be providing (although forest/trees problem exists). Is this just another footnote in our history, does it go by another name, or am I missing something important here? Thanks all; - JP From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Oct 10 14:18:36 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2010 12:18:36 -0700 Subject: VTL/Dutchess logic In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CB2118C.6030604@brouhaha.com> JP Hindin wrote: > I'm delving deeply into the manuals that came with my IBM System/34 and in > the Core section it mentions that the logic is "VTL and Dutchess". TTL, > ECL, CMOS sure... but I've never heard of VTL or Dutchess, and Google > doesn't seem to be providing (although forest/trees problem exists). > > Is this just another footnote in our history, does it go by another name, > or am I missing something important here? As with most everything IBM did in that era, they invented it themselves, so no one else used it, and there is little or no documentation. I'm not sure about VTL, but Dutchess was a specific generation of bipolar gate array, containing up to 134 gates. It was basically compatible with normal 5V TTL. From ploopster at gmail.com Sun Oct 10 14:55:28 2010 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2010 15:55:28 -0400 Subject: OT : RJ45 Telecom wiring In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CB21A30.2050900@gmail.com> Tony Duell wrote: > Can anyone suggest URLs, etc that give the wiring of RJ45 sockets. in > telecom applications. Not 10bse (which from what I understand are not > strictly RJ45's anyway), or ISDN, but older telecoms. > > The web pages I've found soe far give the wiring for up to 4 POTS lines > on an RJ45, which is, again, not what I am looking for... > > In particular : > > What pins would I expect to find a normal 'switched' telephone line on (4 > and 5, I think?) > > What about a 2-wire leased line ('private circuit')? Or a 4-wire one? > > Why would there be a resistor of about 866 ohms connected between pins 7 > and 8? > > Why would pins 3 anf 6 be shorted together? > > In case anyone's wondering, I've bought a non-working telephone line > simulator, and am trying to make sense of the numerous relays connected > to the telephone connectors, which are RJ45s (genuine RJ45s, with the > extra polarisation notch). > > Books on US telcoms practicce are few and far between over here... > > Thanks in advance for any help... Try: http://www.hvs.on.ca/telecom/technologies Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Sun Oct 10 15:00:00 2010 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2010 16:00:00 -0400 Subject: OT : RJ45 Telecom wiring In-Reply-To: <4CB209AB.4080701@verizon.net> References: <4CB209AB.4080701@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4CB21B40.10306@gmail.com> Keith wrote: > The center pair of wires are normally the first tip & ring, with the > next outside pair being the second line. On an RJ11, this is > 2&3(normally green & red) for the first, 1&4 for the second.(normally > black and yellow) Well, actually the 6p2c RJ11 has only two wires for one line. The two-line four-wire on a 6p4c is an RJ14. The three-line six-wire 6p6c is RJ25. The four-line eight-wire on an 8p8c (similar to RJ45) is RJ61. I *think* that Tony was originally referring to the RJ48S or RJ45S. The pinouts are on the page I gave him before: http://www.hvs.on.ca/telecom/technologies Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Sun Oct 10 15:03:10 2010 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2010 16:03:10 -0400 Subject: VTL/Dutchess logic In-Reply-To: <4CB2118C.6030604@brouhaha.com> References: <4CB2118C.6030604@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4CB21BFE.7020501@gmail.com> Eric Smith wrote: > I'm not sure about VTL, but Dutchess was a specific generation of > bipolar gate array, containing up to 134 gates. It was basically > compatible with normal 5V TTL. IBM *does* tend to do things differently, but they *do* document the hell out of everything. The trick is finding the documentation, and sometimes it can cost a goodly chunk of change. Peace... Sridhar From rdawson16 at hotmail.com Sun Oct 10 15:25:30 2010 From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson) Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2010 15:25:30 -0500 Subject: Compaq luggable, what next? In-Reply-To: <4CB20EA0.7060600@brutman.com> References: , <4CB20EA0.7060600@brutman.com> Message-ID: Hi Mike, These guys probably don't update or even pay attention to their web page; I'm not surprised the other machine is not listed. Its a walk-in retail store. Mike Carter is the head honcho, you can email him from the site links if you want it, or I can go get it for you. My adoration for this machine comes from its origin - I knew Rod Canion and sold him and 'Gateway Technologies' a Data I/O Model 29 EPROM programmer. I was the Data I/O rep in Houston at the time, when they were leaving TI and forming Compaq. No doubts they used it to read the IBM PC ROMS and write their own BIOS. Everybody is aware of the cleanroom story, the guys who read the ROM were not permitted to write the compatable BIOS, but only write the specification for it, to pass on to other S/W engineers. Another story I recall is that some IBM applications were dependent on a search for the the text string "Copyright IBM" in the ROM, so Compaq had "None of this code is copyright IBM" in their ROM. Spoofing the applications.... Today I am cutting out little circles of the key capacitive plates, and double sided tape backing. Hope to get the keyboard foam rot problem fixed on this machine. Randy > Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2010 14:06:08 -0500 > From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com > To: > Subject: Re: Compaq luggable, what next? > > > For $25 it's a steal. I liked the Surplusgizmos site, but I couldn't > find the other machine. ;-0 > > As for what to do ... > > - The XT-IDE card (details can be found over at the Vintage Computer > Forum) allows you to put a modern IDE drive in the machine, which > probably cuts down on power consumption and improves your reliability. > > > - A good Ethernet card from the era (3COM 3C503, NE1000, or other well > known 8 bit cards) will get you 'online' in a limited way. I have > written DHCP, Telnet, FTP, and IRC clients that run on machines of that > vintage. Also available are netcat, PING, and SNTP (Simple Network Time > Protocol). Details over at http://www.brutman.com/mTCP . I wouldn't > invest too much time into a DOS based web browser - if they run they are > horribly disappointing. > > > Mike > From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Oct 10 15:35:43 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2010 16:35:43 -0400 Subject: Monrobot In-Reply-To: <4CB15827.7040300@snarc.net> References: <4CB15827.7040300@snarc.net> Message-ID: Coincidentally, this weekend a friend found a couple of Monrobot logic modules at a hamfest - but all the components had been stripped out, leaving only a skeleton. Nice tags, however. They look a bit like single tube IBM modules. And coincidentally to that, the same hamfest yielded a pair of IBM marked solid state replacement modules for 6AL5 tubes. The part number is in the 440000s, so they are likely from the mid 1960s. -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Oct 10 15:41:20 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2010 16:41:20 -0400 Subject: VTL/Dutchess logic In-Reply-To: <4CB21BFE.7020501@gmail.com> References: <4CB2118C.6030604@brouhaha.com> <4CB21BFE.7020501@gmail.com> Message-ID: > IBM *does* tend to do things differently, but they *do* document the hell > out of everything. ?The trick is finding the documentation, and sometimes it > can cost a goodly chunk of change. The other mainframe makers were the same. So save every page, people... -- Will From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Oct 10 15:42:13 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2010 21:42:13 +0100 (BST) Subject: OT : RJ45 Telecom wiring In-Reply-To: <4CB20D9B.5040009@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at Oct 10, 10 12:01:47 pm Message-ID: > > On 10/10/2010 10:38 AM, Tony Duell wrote: > > What pins would I expect to find a normal 'switched' telephone line on (4 > > and 5, I think?) > Yes, the middle two. > > What about a 2-wire leased line ('private circuit')? > Also the middle two. > > Or a 4-wire one? > Not sure about voice service. For a T1 digital line, the pairs would be > 1/2 and 7/8. Ah, now that makes a lot of sense... I appears that one signal (presumably either a 'bidrectional' one for 2-wire use or one half of the 4 wire set-up can be switched to either pins 4,5 or 1,2. Pins 7.8 seem to be either the resistor I mentioend, or not used, or another signal pair, I would guess at the other half of the 4-wire set-up. You don't happen to know which pair is Txand which is Rx, do you? > > Why would there be a resistor of about 866 ohms connected between pins 7 > > and 8? > That's to program the transmit power level of the device plugged into > the socket. Typically used on leased lines. On a real installation of Again, that makes sense. Such a resistor can be connected by a relay, presumably for testing leased-line modems. I assume (and will know more when I get this thing working) it will check the transmit level is what it should be given that resistor value. > that type, the resistor value is chosen by the installer to compensate > for loop length. > > > Why would pins 3 anf 6 be shorted together? > I'm not sure specifically about about 3 and 6, but on some jacks there > are one or two shorting bars to preserve continuity of a loop when there > is no device plugged into the jack. This is used in RJ41X service, > typically for alarms, because the alarm system can seize the loop > (disconnect it from the downstream phones). When nothing is plugged > into the jack, the shorting bar provides loop continuity to the phones. No, it's not that. There's a SPST reed realy (single form A, simple on'off contact) that's wired to pins 3 and 6 on the RJ45. As far as I can see those pins go nowhere else. So there must be some device that expects a short between those pins under some circumstances. > > > In case anyone's wondering, I've bought a non-working telephone line > > simulator, and am trying to make sense of the numerous relays connected > > to the telephone connectors, which are RJ45s (genuine RJ45s, with the > > extra polarisation notch). > Note that RJxx is a USOC (Uniform Service Ordering Code), and defines > the type of service as well as what jack is used: 4-position, > 6-position, 8-position, with or without shorting bars, how it is wired, etc. Indeed. Henace my comment that the twisted-pair ethernet socket is not strictly an RJ45. It's even mechancially different. However, I suspect this device, being a telecoms tester, with RJ45-like sockets (with the extra groove) will simulate some standard uses of that connector. > The real info was in the "Bell System Practice" documents, which were > not available to customers, and in Bell standards, which were. After > the divestiture, the standards went to Bellcore, which is now Telcordia, > and the standards cost a LOT of money. Pity. While I am sure the ofifical standards would be interesting, I doubt they would be worth the money for this... Thanks. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Oct 10 15:30:51 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2010 21:30:51 +0100 (BST) Subject: OT : RJ45 Telecom wiring In-Reply-To: <4CB209AB.4080701@verizon.net> from "Keith" at Oct 10, 10 02:44:59 pm Message-ID: > > On 10/10/2010 1:38 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > > Can anyone suggest URLs, etc that give the wiring of RJ45 sockets. in > > telecom applications. Not 10bse (which from what I understand are not > > strictly RJ45's anyway), or ISDN, but older telecoms. > > All of the recent(last 10 or 12 years) ethernet standards all use 8-wire > RJ45's. They are as strict of RJ45's as they can be. This doesn't IFrom what I've read, I am not convinced they are. They are 8P8C modular connectors. The 'RJ' (Registers Jack) numbers specify a lot more than the connector. Apparently, too, the RJ45 connectore had an extra ridge on the plug and a groove in the socket (jack) to take it. The connectors on the instrument I am working on most certainly have this groove. > imply that all standards require all 8 wires, but they use 8 position > contacts, plugs, jacks, standard cabling and so on. > > > The web pages I've found soe far give the wiring for up to 4 POTS lines > > on an RJ45, which is, again, not what I am looking for... > > > > What pins would I expect to find a normal 'switched' telephone line on (4 > > and 5, I think?) > > Can you help us out what the difference is between POTS and what you are > calling normal switched telephone lines? Nothing at all as far as I am aware. OK, perhaps I can give a little more infromation. This is a telephone line simualtor instrument. It has a pair of RJ45 sockets on the front for the 2 devices you want to connect together. The 8 contacts of each socket are duplicated by screw terminals on the back. One one of the PCBs inside are a large number of relays (of various types), 9 are associated with each RJ45 connector from what I can tell. Now since the instrument doesn't work yet, and I have no manual, I can't be sure, but it appears from the LED labels on the front panel that this unit can test either normal 2-wire 'switched' devices (it will simulate a PSTN line), or 2 wire 'private' (what we would call a 'leased line' I think) or 4-wire private connections (presumably one pair for the signal in each direction. My guess is that some of the relays select between these modes, and thus it would be useful to know what I should be seeing on the various RJ45 pins in each mode. I say 'some' of the relays, because I've already found one that simply reverses the line 'battery' (supply voltage) polarity, and another that seems to apply a rining voltage. And I'll mention a couple more below. > The center pair of wires are normally the first tip & ring, with the > next outside pair being the second line. On an RJ11, this is > 2&3(normally green & red) for the first, 1&4 for the second.(normally > black and yellow) Yes, I'd read that. And based on that, and some of the relay connections, it would appear that at least one mode uses pins 4 and 5 -- the centre pins -- only. > > The telco's will normally not deliver or install an RJ-45 for regular > telephone service --- but there's no reason why they couldn't -- as long > as you used compatible cables pinned & paired properly. I am not trying to get a telephone line installed... I have something that pretends to be a telepgone line and has an RJ45 connector on the front... > > Why would there be a resistor of about 866 ohms connected between pins 7 > > and 8? There is one relay that seems to connect such a resistor. I think I read somewhere that this was an obsolete standard (whcih may well have been current when this thing was made) for high-speed modems. Perhaps the resistor encodes some characteristic of the line. Pins 7 and 8 are used for something else when this relay is not connecting the resistor. Perhaps one half of the 4 wire line. > > > > Why would pins 3 anf 6 be shorted together? > > I don't have an answer for this. Again, there's a relay that connects 3 to 6, and as far as I can see, these pins go nohwere else. > The EIA/TIA has standards called T568A and T568B which specify color > pair connects to which pins on the connector. T568B is normally the Yes, I've got those... But knowing how to connect the wires is very different from knowing what the wires might be used for... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Oct 10 15:32:52 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2010 21:32:52 +0100 (BST) Subject: OT : RJ45 Telecom wiring In-Reply-To: <4CB1A8E5.9852.958008@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Oct 10, 10 11:52:05 am Message-ID: > > I think you're asking about USOC RJ45S, which has nothing to do with > network wiring. I've never seen a true one in the wild, but they > were used for data hookups, apparently. It's entirely possible that I am. I will take a look at the URL's you've given and see if they make any sense with the relay connections I've figured out so far... Thanks... -tony > > Perhaps this will help: > > http://www.suttleonline.com/pdfs/misc/USOC_Guide.pdf > > and a bit more on programming resistor values: > > http://www.shout.net/~wildixon/telecom/rj/68_502.html > > --Chuck > > From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Oct 10 16:02:38 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2010 14:02:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Monrobot In-Reply-To: References: <4CB15827.7040300@snarc.net> Message-ID: <20101010140200.W51720@shell.lmi.net> But, I'd rather have the MonroeBot that they discussed on Futurama. From cclist at sydex.com Sun Oct 10 16:07:16 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2010 14:07:16 -0700 Subject: VTL/Dutchess logic In-Reply-To: <4CB21BFE.7020501@gmail.com> References: , <4CB2118C.6030604@brouhaha.com>, <4CB21BFE.7020501@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4CB1C894.246.111416E@cclist.sydex.com> On 10 Oct 2010 at 16:03, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Eric Smith wrote: > > I'm not sure about VTL, but Dutchess was a specific generation of > > bipolar gate array, containing up to 134 gates. It was basically > > compatible with normal 5V TTL. > > IBM *does* tend to do things differently, but they *do* document the > hell out of everything. The trick is finding the documentation, and > sometimes it can cost a goodly chunk of change. I seem to recall that "VTL" is an acronym for "variable threshold logic" and dates back at least to the 1960s. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sun Oct 10 16:29:01 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2010 14:29:01 -0700 Subject: OT : RJ45 Telecom wiring In-Reply-To: References: <4CB20D9B.5040009@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at Oct 10, 10 12:01:47 pm, Message-ID: <4CB1CDAD.6498.1252CAC@cclist.sydex.com> A bit more on the shorting switch on your tester. It's called an "exclusion key switch" and is used to prevent an attached device from connecting to the line. Take a look at page 17 ff. in the UDS 208 modem manual: http://www.arcelect.com/208A-B_manual.PDF Those of us old enough to remember Ma Bell's setups will recall that this switch was a little transparent (IIRC illuminated) knob on the desk set that one turned to enable the modem to access the phone line. I can see why this would be part of a tester. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sun Oct 10 17:00:54 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2010 15:00:54 -0700 Subject: OT : RJ45 Telecom wiring In-Reply-To: <4CB1CDAD.6498.1252CAC@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4CB20D9B.5040009@brouhaha.com>, , <4CB1CDAD.6498.1252CAC@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4CB1D526.28743.1425A47@cclist.sydex.com> On 10 Oct 2010 at 14:29, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Those of us old enough to remember Ma Bell's setups will recall that > this switch was a little transparent (IIRC illuminated) knob on the > desk set that one turned to enable the modem to access the phone line. Or, on some sets, one of the switchhook buttons that was pulled upwards. --Chuck From zmerch-coco at 30below.com Sat Oct 9 09:03:57 2010 From: zmerch-coco at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sat, 09 Oct 2010 10:03:57 -0400 Subject: An interesting development in vintage system emulators In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CB0764D.90605@30below.com> On 10/07/2010 09:45 AM, Liam Proven wrote: [[ snippity ]] > Essentially, it's a Spectrum emulator for Windows... [[ snippity ]] > It is a really pleasant environment to work in: you get the pleasure > of working in the old environment, but also the facilities of Windows. > > It may not encompass all the very best of both worlds, but it is the > closest I've ever seen. I really like the way it merges the fun of > playing around with an emulated 1980s 8-bit environment with the > luxuries of a modern GUI OS. Trying to write code with an emulated > Spectrum brings back many of the horrors of working on those machines > for real - lousy editors, tiny screens, poor file-storage, > instability, slowness, etc. > > It strikes me that there's no need for this concept to be limited to > the Spectrum, although that happens to be my favourite 8-bit machine& > the one I'm far and away most familiar with. It would be an > interesting way for emulators of almost any vintage system to develop > - separating display and code editor, enhancing the editor with modern > native-OS facilities while keeping the classic execution and display > environment. It might be a little less applicable to text-only > terminal-based OSs, but not exclusively so, I think. I'd love to see > such an environment for a whole load of the old graphics-oriented > 8-bit home computers of the 1980s, though. Ask and you shall receive... ;-) There is a similar product out there (but more advanced) and it's about to be released in it's 3rd iteration. The 1st generation was called "Portal-09" and it was designed solely around the Tandy CoCo1/2/3. It gives you a Windows editor where you can code in Basic or 6809 assembly language, it had multiple tab files, syntax highlighting, etc. You could save your source code files on the Windows system for easy backups, but when you clicked 1 button, it would assemble your program, save it as either a .ROM or .DSK, boot MESS with the correct parameters to load those .ROM/.DSK files and put you in the full virtual machine for testing, either at "full speed" or at emulated CPU speed. The 2nd generation was called "Rainbow IDE" and the author realized what you did above - why keep it just for the CoCo? He modified his system to easily add other platforms, and with the help of others, he expanded the system to encompass many other systems, even some scientific calculators. Here's the webpage for it: http://www.coco3.com/community/products/rainbow-ide It's a windows application, but he tries to keep it as "compatible" as possible so it can be run in things like WINE & whatnot -- here's the list of Windows OSs it runs on: """ Rainbow IDE is a Multi-Target Integrated Development Environment for Windows 7, Vista, XP, 2000, ME, 98, 95, and LINUX via the Wine system. """ (Of course, for those of us who are primarily Linux based, there's also the option of VirtualBox -- so instead of WINE which is a "fake windows" -- you can run a "real windows" in a fake computer... ;-) The 3rd generation is called "Phoenix IDE" and is very near release (and with this individual's track record of not creating vapor-ware, I would say it probably will be very soon) and is running a preorder price special to help bring it to market. I don't know a ton about it (I've not had time for the hobbies again until recently, so I've been out of the "scene") but it looks interesting: http://www.coco3.com/community/upcoming-phoenix-ide The author's name is Roger Taylor and as he works for UPS and is quite busy himself, so the fact that the applications he writes are amazingly good is a testament to his abilities. I'd used Portal-09 quite a bit & loved it; I purchased and tinkered with Rainbow IDE, but that was very near the time of 1) eliminating all my Windows boxes at home, and 2) the stark reduction of spare time that I'm just now recovering from. Check it out... and tell him "Merch" sent ya! ;-) Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger From john_a_s2004 at hotmail.com Sat Oct 9 14:46:53 2010 From: john_a_s2004 at hotmail.com (John S) Date: Sat, 9 Oct 2010 19:46:53 +0000 Subject: Microwriter MW4 help In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi, John S wrote: >>> I recently obtained a Microwriter with an LCD display. >>> >>> Else it may be faulty >>> I found Tony's post from 2009 asking for a 'good' EPROM image maybe >>> mine is failing in a similar way. > >Tony wrote: >> FWIW, I am still stuck... I am pretty sure the Firmware EPROM in mine is >> corrupted, some 'chords' do not produce the characters I would expect >My one can generate all the letters, numbers and punctuation marks so fingers crossed the EPROM is>OK. >> IIRC, the EPROM is a 25C64 (which is slightly different to the more common >> 27C64). If you have a programmer capable of reading out that device, it >> would be interesting to compare the ROM in mine with it. >OK, I'll try and read the EPROM. This might take me some time, but I am keen to >do it as there is very little technical stuff about the MW4 on line. I've finally made an adapter to read the 2564 on my programmer (which can only read the 2764). There were about 5 pins to rewire, I'll write some notes later on the differences. I've upload the ROM image to: http://www.vintagecomputers.btinternet.co.uk/mw4/mw4.zip The file looks OK, but there are a lot of FF bytes on the ROM, which hopefully imply that the whole 8K bytes weren't needed rather than the ROM is faulty. Hopefully Tony can compare this with his ROM and come back with any further tips or questions. >I might try and disassemble the code too Not yet tried DASMx (thanks for the link Phil), maybe one day. Regards, John From john_a_s2004 at hotmail.com Sun Oct 10 16:25:36 2010 From: john_a_s2004 at hotmail.com (John S) Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2010 21:25:36 +0000 Subject: Microwriter MW4 help Message-ID: Hi, I have finally made an adapter to read the 2564 ROM from my Microwriter on my EPROM programmer (which can only read the 2764). There were about 5 pins to rewire, I'll write some notes later on the differences. I've upload the ROM image to: http://www.vintagecomputers.btinternet.co.uk/mw4/mw4.zip The file looks OK, but there are a lot of FF bytes on the ROM, which hopefully implies that the whole 8K bytes weren't needed rather than the ROM is faulty. Hopefully Tony can compare this with his ROM and come back with any further tips or questions. If anyone else has a fully working MW4 please make contact. I haven't tried to disassemble the ROM yet (thanks Phil for the link to DASMx), maybe one day. Regards, John ================================================================== John S john_a_s2004 at hotmail.com Wed Sep 8 15:40:20 CDT 2010 >> I recently obtained a Microwriter with an LCD display. >> >> Else it may be faulty >> I found Tony's post from 2009 asking for a 'good' EPROM image maybe >> mine is failing in a similar way. Tony wrote: > FWIW, I am still stuck... I am pretty sure the Firmware EPROM in mine is > corrupted, some 'chords' do not produce the characters I would expect My one can generate all the letters, numbers and punctuation marks so fingers crossed the EPROM is OK. > IIRC, the EPROM is a 25C64 (which is slightly different to the more common > 27C64). If you have a programmer capable of reading out that device, it > would be interesting to compare the ROM in mine with it. OK, I'll try and read the EPROM. This might take me some time, but I am keen to do it as there is very little technical stuff about the MW4 on line. I might try and disassemble the code too (but I don't think IDA has a 1802 option!) Regards, John From chd at chdickman.com Sun Oct 10 21:22:05 2010 From: chd at chdickman.com (Charles Dickman) Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2010 22:22:05 -0400 Subject: VTL/Dutchess logic In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Oct 10, 2010 at 3:14 PM, JP Hindin wrote: > > I'm delving deeply into the manuals that came with my IBM System/34 > I have a System/34 in my garage that has the first disk functional and the second disk has a thrown belt. I have a new belt, but haven't tried to install it. I have pretty much a complete set of documentation for the IBM System/34. I sent a part of the software documents to the CHM for scanning, but I retained all of the hardware stuff. -chuck From dbetz at xlisper.com Sun Oct 10 21:41:45 2010 From: dbetz at xlisper.com (David Betz) Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2010 22:41:45 -0400 Subject: Monrobot In-Reply-To: <4CB15827.7040300@snarc.net> References: <4CB15827.7040300@snarc.net> Message-ID: On Oct 10, 2010, at 2:07 AM, Evan Koblentz wrote: > Does anyone know of a good history, online or in print, regarding the Monrobot computers? I found some technical info at Bitsavers and on Ed Thelen's site, but I'm looking for info about the people behind the company in the 1950s. Evan, I don't have any history for the Monrobot but I do have copies of some of the Monrobot XI technical documents. If you're interested I can look to see exactly which documents I have. I got them from a guy who was selling a few Monrobot XI computers a while back. I had my name in for one but he ended up selling the whole lot to someone else. I convinced him to copy the documentation before sending it to the buyer. Thanks, David From evan at snarc.net Sun Oct 10 21:53:42 2010 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2010 22:53:42 -0400 Subject: Monrobot In-Reply-To: References: <4CB15827.7040300@snarc.net> Message-ID: <4CB27C36.8000003@snarc.net> >> Does anyone know of a good history, online or in print, regarding the Monrobot computers? I found some technical info at Bitsavers and on Ed Thelen's site, but I'm looking for info about the people behind the company in the 1950s. > Evan, > > I don't have any history for the Monrobot but I do have copies of some of the Monrobot XI technical documents. If you're interested I can look to see exactly which documents I have. Thanks, but that's not needed right now. From nick.allen at comcast.net Sun Oct 10 21:06:50 2010 From: nick.allen at comcast.net (Nick Allen) Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2010 21:06:50 -0500 Subject: Rebuilding Altair 8800b Message-ID: <4CB2713A.9060401@comcast.net> Just recently acquired an Altair 8800b (turnkey model)! Came with case, power supply, back-plane and the front control board, but no other cards. Anyone have any cards for the altair 8800b (cpu, ram, serial, parallel) they are willing to sell or trade? nick dot allen at comcast dot net From christian_liendo at yahoo.com Mon Oct 11 11:05:11 2010 From: christian_liendo at yahoo.com (Christian Liendo) Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2010 09:05:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The "death" of GEOS Message-ID: <429637.99974.qm@web113511.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Interesting read since I haven't played with GEOs for a couple of years now. I know people who still used GEOs for the C64, but the PC version has been in limbo for a while http://www.osnews.com/story/23882/The_Death_of_GEOS_ From h.j.stegeman at hccnet.nl Mon Oct 11 12:23:37 2010 From: h.j.stegeman at hccnet.nl (Henk Stegeman) Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2010 19:23:37 +0200 Subject: VTL/Dutchess logic Message-ID: Hi, VTL stands for Vendor Transitor Logic. I (finally) found it in a S/34 hardware manual. VTL is Texas Instrument TTL chips with IBM part numbers. Henk www.ibmsystem3.nl From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Mon Oct 11 13:03:08 2010 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2010 11:03:08 -0700 Subject: IBM System 3 / was Re: VTL/Dutchess logic In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 2010 Oct 11, at 10:23 AM, Henk Stegeman wrote: > VTL stands for Vendor Transitor Logic. > I (finally) found it in a S/34 hardware manual. > > VTL is Texas Instrument TTL chips with IBM part numbers. > > Henk > www.ibmsystem3.nl Looking at your web page: http://www.ibmsystem3.nl/5410/images/M10CPUflow.jpg The diagram shows 8-bit data paths and ALU, but most of the user-registers are 16-bits. Just curious about the architecture: at the programmer's level did it look like a primarily 8-bit machine, or a 16-bit machine which always processed 2 bytes in sequence, or it would best be described as mixed 8/16? From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Oct 11 13:36:19 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2010 14:36:19 -0400 Subject: IBM System 3 / was Re: VTL/Dutchess logic In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > Just curious about the architecture: at the programmer's level did it look > like a primarily 8-bit machine, or a 16-bit machine which always processed 2 > bytes in sequence, or it would best be described as mixed 8/16? S/3s worked with strings of bytes in memory, basically. Very non-traditional. -- Will From RichA at vulcan.com Mon Oct 11 13:51:07 2010 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2010 11:51:07 -0700 Subject: IBM System 3 / was Re: VTL/Dutchess logic In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: From: William Donzelli Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 11:36 AM >> Just curious about the architecture: at the programmer's level did it look >> like a primarily 8-bit machine, or a 16-bit machine which always processed 2 >> bytes in sequence, or it would best be described as mixed 8/16? > S/3s worked with strings of bytes in memory, basically. Very non-traditional. Not for IBM. The 1401 was very much a character-oriented machine. The S/3 was not, in general, programmed by user programmers in anything other than RPG III, which went on to be the programming model for the System/3x and AS 400 families; IIRC the original RPG was a 1401 program product. Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.PDPplanet.org/ http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 11 15:29:35 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2010 21:29:35 +0100 (BST) Subject: Microwriter MW4 help In-Reply-To: from "John S" at Oct 9, 10 07:46:53 pm Message-ID: > I've finally made an adapter to read the 2564 on my programmer (which can o= > nly read the 2764). There were about 5 pins to rewire=2C I'll write some no= > tes later on the differences. > > I've upload the ROM image to: > > http://www.vintagecomputers.btinternet.co.uk/mw4/mw4.zip THanks. I've downloaded it, it unpacks OK. I wondered why the file was larger than ecxpected, but then saw you'd included both hex and binary images. I will probably burn it into a 27C64 (those I have, and my programmer can easily handle them) and make an adapter to use it in the MW4. Then we can see if that gets mine working. I won't be doing this just yet (I've gor various other things to do), but I will let you know how I get on when I do do it. If you are going to disassemble the ROM, do you need schematics of the MW4 hardware? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 11 15:33:31 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2010 21:33:31 +0100 (BST) Subject: OT : RJ45 Telecom wiring In-Reply-To: <4CB1CDAD.6498.1252CAC@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Oct 10, 10 02:29:01 pm Message-ID: > > A bit more on the shorting switch on your tester. > > It's called an "exclusion key switch" and is used to prevent an > attached device from connecting to the line. Take a look at page 17 > ff. in the UDS 208 modem manual: > > http://www.arcelect.com/208A-B_manual.PDF Thanks. Yes, that makes a lot of sense. As an aside, I am not sure how off-topic this instrument is. OK. it's not a classic computer, but I intend to use it for testing classic computer peripherals (modems, of course). It is, iteself, over 20 years old, and while it is not user-programmable (AFAIK), it does contain _6_ microprocessors (3 off 8085, an 8049, an 8041 (display driver, that one I can see the purpose of) and a 32C010 DSP). -tony From emu at e-bbes.com Mon Oct 11 16:37:49 2010 From: emu at e-bbes.com (e.stiebler) Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2010 15:37:49 -0600 Subject: at&t unix pc Message-ID: <4CB383AD.3000500@e-bbes.com> Hi all, anybody still cares about them? Got a pile of them, so if anybody is looking for something specific, please let me know (will take a while until I get into this pile). Any good web page with hardware information of those? Cheers From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Oct 11 16:46:51 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2010 17:46:51 -0400 Subject: at&t unix pc In-Reply-To: <4CB383AD.3000500@e-bbes.com> References: <4CB383AD.3000500@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: On 10/11/10, e.stiebler wrote: > Hi all, > anybody still cares about them? Yes. > Got a pile of them, so if anybody is looking for something specific, > please let me know (will take a while until I get into this pile). I don't presently have one, but if I do ever run across one, I'd want to make sure I had a "StarLAN" card (1Base5, for the pedants in the crowd) - I even have a few official StarLAN transceivers and such - they work fine on a 10BaseT network. > Any good web page with hardware information of those? No, but I'd love for someone to turn up schematics or at least enough technical detail to be able to add either an IDE interface or a SCSI interface, even if it sits in the CPU socket (like some Amiga 500 disk controllers). It's a nice little machine, but it would be nice to see a homebrew upgrade path past the MFM disk controller. -ethan From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Mon Oct 11 17:05:45 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2010 19:05:45 -0300 Subject: at&t unix pc References: <4CB383AD.3000500@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: <106e01cb6990$dff6ed60$fbdc00bd@portajara> > No, but I'd love for someone to turn up schematics or at least enough > technical detail to be able to add either an IDE interface or a SCSI > interface, even if it sits in the CPU socket (like some Amiga 500 disk > controllers). It's a nice little machine, but it would be nice to see > a homebrew upgrade path past the MFM disk controller. Of course the amiga 500 disk controller can be used...if you can write firmware for that :) From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Oct 11 17:11:23 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2010 15:11:23 -0700 Subject: at&t unix pc In-Reply-To: References: <4CB383AD.3000500@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: <4CB38B8B.3090601@brouhaha.com> Ethan Dicks wrote about the AT&T Unix PC (7300 or 3B1): > I don't presently have one, but if I do ever run across one, I'd want > to make sure I had a "StarLAN" card (1Base5, for the pedants in the > crowd) - I even have a few official StarLAN transceivers and such - > they work fine on a 10BaseT network. > StarLAN does *NOT* operate on a 10BaseT network. The signalling is similar, but the data rate is 1 Mbps rather than 10 Mbps. StarLAN generally will not work with 10, 10/100, or 10/100/gig hubs or switches. There may have been some networking equipment that could interoperate with both StarLAN and 10baseT, but I've never found it. For the Unix PC, there were separate cards for StarLAN and for 10 Mbps Ethernet. The StarLAN card used the Intel 82586 Ethernet MAC chip, while IIRC the 10 Mbps Ethernet card used the AMD Am7990 "LANCE" Ethernet MAC chip. The 10 Mbps Ethernet card did not include a 10baseT transceiver, but one can be connected via AUI. I don't know anything about the StarLAN software for the UnixPC. The Ethernet card came with a port of the BSD IP stack done by The Wollongong Group. Because the kernel is System V Release 2, they had to implement select() in a user space library, and it ONLY works with network sockets, and not with native devices. This makes it challenging to get any non-trivial networking software ported. Eric From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Oct 11 17:28:32 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2010 18:28:32 -0400 Subject: at&t unix pc In-Reply-To: <4CB38B8B.3090601@brouhaha.com> References: <4CB383AD.3000500@e-bbes.com> <4CB38B8B.3090601@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On 10/11/10, Eric Smith wrote: > Ethan Dicks wrote about the AT&T Unix PC (7300 or 3B1): >> I don't presently have one, but if I do ever run across one, I'd want >> to make sure I had a "StarLAN" card (1Base5, for the pedants in the >> crowd) - I even have a few official StarLAN transceivers and such - >> they work fine on a 10BaseT network. >> > StarLAN does *NOT* operate on a 10BaseT network. The signalling is > similar, but the data rate is 1 Mbps rather than 10 Mbps. Apologies for any ambiguity, but to be clear, the genuine StarLAN transceivers I have are working fine on my 10BaseT network at 10Mbps, not 1Mbps. I was not trying to suggest you could plug a true 1Base5 StarLAN network directly into a 10BaseT network. Is it possible that different kinds of devices were all badged "StarLAN"? -ethan From mdavidson1963 at gmail.com Mon Oct 11 17:30:06 2010 From: mdavidson1963 at gmail.com (Mark Davidson) Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2010 15:30:06 -0700 Subject: at&t unix pc In-Reply-To: <4CB38B8B.3090601@brouhaha.com> References: <4CB383AD.3000500@e-bbes.com> <4CB38B8B.3090601@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Oct 11, 2010 at 3:11 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > Ethan Dicks wrote about the AT&T Unix PC (7300 or 3B1): >> >> I don't presently have one, but if I do ever run across one, I'd want >> to make sure I had a "StarLAN" card (1Base5, for the pedants in the >> crowd) - I even have a few official StarLAN transceivers and such - >> they work fine on a 10BaseT network. >> > I don't know anything about the StarLAN software for the UnixPC. ?The > Ethernet card came with a port of the BSD IP stack done by The Wollongong > Group. ?Because the kernel is System V Release 2, they had to implement > select() in a user space library, and it ONLY works with network sockets, > and not with native devices. ?This makes it challenging to get any > non-trivial networking software ported. It would take some digging, but I've got more than one of these beasties, and I've also got the Wollongong software (as well as a LOT of diskettes for the Unix PC; I rescued a 3 machine setup from an owner who appears to have purchased every single option he could get his hands on). I've even got the 'black binder' which is the technician's field notebook for repairs, I believe. I can look at it and see if there's anything useful in it. I loved rescuing these machines and have set up 2 of them from the original (25 year old) diskettes, but I haven't had time to do much more than that. Mark From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Oct 11 18:33:12 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2010 19:33:12 -0400 Subject: at&t unix pc In-Reply-To: References: <4CB383AD.3000500@e-bbes.com> <4CB38B8B.3090601@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4CB39EB8.8050300@neurotica.com> On 10/11/10 6:30 PM, Mark Davidson wrote: >>> I don't presently have one, but if I do ever run across one, I'd want >>> to make sure I had a "StarLAN" card (1Base5, for the pedants in the >>> crowd) - I even have a few official StarLAN transceivers and such - >>> they work fine on a 10BaseT network. >>> >> I don't know anything about the StarLAN software for the UnixPC. The >> Ethernet card came with a port of the BSD IP stack done by The Wollongong >> Group. Because the kernel is System V Release 2, they had to implement >> select() in a user space library, and it ONLY works with network sockets, >> and not with native devices. This makes it challenging to get any >> non-trivial networking software ported. > > It would take some digging, but I've got more than one of these > beasties, and I've also got the Wollongong software (as well as a LOT > of diskettes for the Unix PC; I rescued a 3 machine setup from an > owner who appears to have purchased every single option he could get > his hands on). I've even got the 'black binder' which is the > technician's field notebook for repairs, I believe. I can look at it > and see if there's anything useful in it. I loved rescuing these > machines and have set up 2 of them from the original (25 year old) > diskettes, but I haven't had time to do much more than that. I've done tons and tons with these machines, but haven't been into them in-depth for about twenty years. I sold and serviced them when they were new, and had one at home around 1988 or so. LOVED it! What I did NOT love, however, was the horrible IP stack that Wollongong slapped together for that Ethernet card. It's one of the most crash-prone pieces of software I've ever seen, and when the IP stack crashed, it took down the entire machine. I got one again (thanks yet again Mark Tapley and Robert Klar!) about eight years ago, and while I don't often have a chance to fire it up, it sits proudly on display. It's a good design and I like it a lot. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Oct 11 18:34:01 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2010 19:34:01 -0400 Subject: at&t unix pc In-Reply-To: References: <4CB383AD.3000500@e-bbes.com> <4CB38B8B.3090601@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4CB39EE9.7090704@neurotica.com> On 10/11/10 6:28 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >>> I don't presently have one, but if I do ever run across one, I'd want >>> to make sure I had a "StarLAN" card (1Base5, for the pedants in the >>> crowd) - I even have a few official StarLAN transceivers and such - >>> they work fine on a 10BaseT network. >>> >> StarLAN does *NOT* operate on a 10BaseT network. The signalling is >> similar, but the data rate is 1 Mbps rather than 10 Mbps. > > Apologies for any ambiguity, but to be clear, the genuine StarLAN > transceivers I have are working fine on my 10BaseT network at 10Mbps, > not 1Mbps. I was not trying to suggest you could plug a true 1Base5 > StarLAN network directly into a 10BaseT network. > > Is it possible that different kinds of devices were all badged "StarLAN"? You're talking about StarLAN-10, which is very different from StarLAN. I don't recall if they were labeled as such. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From arcbe2001 at yahoo.com Mon Oct 11 19:02:20 2010 From: arcbe2001 at yahoo.com (Russ Bartlett) Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2010 17:02:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: IBM System 3 / was Re: VTL/Dutchess logic In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <433005.18009.qm@web110411.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Correction The System/3 was the first RPG II machine and the System/34 also used RPG II whereas the System/38 introduced RPG III,? The problem with the logic cycle was that it didn't fit well into the interactive model environment.? Interestingly Honeywell (Italy I think) introduced a RPG III compiler for their DPS System 4000 IDBS4 was their attempt at a relational database as found on System/38.? THe IBM 360/20 was the predecessor to the System/3 and unlike the other 360's was a 16 bit machine with a reduced instruction set. Russ --- On Mon, 10/11/10, Rich Alderson wrote: From: Rich Alderson Subject: RE: IBM System 3 / was Re: VTL/Dutchess logic To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Date: Monday, October 11, 2010, 2:51 PM From: William Donzelli Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 11:36 AM >> Just curious about the architecture: at the programmer's level did it look >> like a primarily 8-bit machine, or a 16-bit machine which always processed 2 >> bytes in sequence, or it would best be described as mixed 8/16? > S/3s worked with strings of bytes in memory, basically. Very non-traditional. Not for IBM.? The 1401 was very much a character-oriented machine. The S/3 was not, in general, programmed by user programmers in anything other than RPG III, which went on to be the programming model for the System/3x and AS 400 families; IIRC the original RPG was a 1401 program product. Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.PDPplanet.org/ http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Mon Oct 11 19:57:38 2010 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2010 17:57:38 -0700 Subject: IBM System 3 / was Re: VTL/Dutchess logic In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 2010 Oct 11, at 11:51 AM, Rich Alderson wrote: > From: William Donzelli > Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 11:36 AM > >>> Just curious about the architecture: at the programmer's level did >>> it look >>> like a primarily 8-bit machine, or a 16-bit machine which always >>> processed 2 >>> bytes in sequence, or it would best be described as mixed 8/16? > >> S/3s worked with strings of bytes in memory, basically. Very >> non-traditional. OK, forgot about that possibility. I was aware of the 1401 (but not from direct experience). > Not for IBM. The 1401 was very much a character-oriented machine. > > The S/3 was not, in general, programmed by user programmers in > anything other > than RPG III, which went on to be the programming model for the > System/3x and > AS 400 families; IIRC the original RPG was a 1401 program product. (I should have said machine-instruction level rather than programmer's level.) From RichA at vulcan.com Mon Oct 11 20:16:52 2010 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2010 18:16:52 -0700 Subject: IBM System 3 / was Re: VTL/Dutchess logic In-Reply-To: <433005.18009.qm@web110411.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <433005.18009.qm@web110411.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: From: Russ Bartlett Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 5:02 PM > --- On Mon, 10/11/10, Rich Alderson wrote: >> From: Rich Alderson >> Date: Monday, October 11, 2010, 2:51 PM >> From: William Donzelli >> Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 11:36 AM >>>> Just curious about the architecture: at the programmer's level did it >>>> look like a primarily 8-bit machine, or a 16-bit machine which always >>>> processed 2 bytes in sequence, or it would best be described as mixed >>>> 8/16? >>> S/3s worked with strings of bytes in memory, basically. Very >>> non-traditional. >> Not for IBM. The 1401 was very much a character-oriented machine. >> The S/3 was not, in general, programmed by user programmers in anything >> other than RPG III, which went on to be the programming model for the >> System/3x and AS 400 families; IIRC the original RPG was a 1401 program >> product. > Correction The System/3 was the first RPG II machine and the System/34 > also used RPG II whereas the System/38 introduced RPG III, The problem > with the logic cycle was that it didn't fit well into the interactive > model environment. Interestingly Honeywell (Italy I think) introduced a > RPG III compiler for their DPS System 4000 IDBS4 was their attempt at a > relational database as found on System/38. THe IBM 360/20 was the > predecessor to the System/3 and unlike the other 360's was a 16 bit > machine with a reduced instruction set. Thanks for the correction on RPG II vs. III; I thought RPG II was a 360 product, but then, I never used any version of RPG. I did my sentence as a financial systems programmer in COBOL and PL/I on a 370/168 and Amdahl 470. There is one more connection between the S/3 (and possibly its successors?) and the 1401: The character encoding on the cute little 96-column card was the same as the internal BCD representation of those characters on the 1401. I learned that in 1972-73 from a System/3 that I worked around but not with, when I still had the 1401 character set representation in my head and in my documentation collection. Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.PDPplanet.org/ http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From mdavidson1963 at gmail.com Mon Oct 11 21:48:49 2010 From: mdavidson1963 at gmail.com (Mark Davidson) Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2010 19:48:49 -0700 Subject: at&t unix pc In-Reply-To: <4CB39EE9.7090704@neurotica.com> References: <4CB383AD.3000500@e-bbes.com> <4CB38B8B.3090601@brouhaha.com> <4CB39EE9.7090704@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Oct 11, 2010 at 4:34 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 10/11/10 6:28 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >>>> >>>> I don't presently have one, but if I do ever run across one, I'd want >>>> to make sure I had a "StarLAN" card (1Base5, for the pedants in the >>>> crowd) - I even have a few official StarLAN transceivers and such - >>>> they work fine on a 10BaseT network. >>>> >>> StarLAN does *NOT* operate on a 10BaseT network. ?The signalling is >>> similar, but the data rate is 1 Mbps rather than 10 Mbps. >> >> Apologies for any ambiguity, but to be clear, the genuine StarLAN >> transceivers I have are working fine on my 10BaseT network at 10Mbps, >> not 1Mbps. ?I was not trying to suggest you could plug a true 1Base5 >> StarLAN network directly into a 10BaseT network. >> >> Is it possible that different kinds of devices were all badged "StarLAN"? > > ?You're talking about StarLAN-10, which is very different from StarLAN. ?I > don't recall if they were labeled as such. > > ? ? ? ? ? ?-Dave Ok, I pulled out my 'black binder'. It's a copy of the AT&T Unix PC Reference Manual, and is for technicians doing component-level troubleshooting of the AT&T Unix PC logic board. It's pretty thick and contains sections on: * System Features and Functions * Logic Board Theory of Operation * Diagnostics * Logic Board Test Procedures * Schematics * PAL Equations * Mnemonics * Expansion Memory Locations As I said, it's pretty thick... has this been preserved in digital form somewhere? Mark From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Oct 11 22:26:22 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2010 23:26:22 -0400 Subject: at&t unix pc In-Reply-To: References: <4CB383AD.3000500@e-bbes.com> <4CB38B8B.3090601@brouhaha.com> <4CB39EE9.7090704@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4CB3D55E.4010001@neurotica.com> On 10/11/10 10:48 PM, Mark Davidson wrote: > Ok, I pulled out my 'black binder'. It's a copy of the AT&T Unix PC > Reference Manual, and is for technicians doing component-level > troubleshooting of the AT&T Unix PC logic board. It's pretty thick > and contains sections on: > > * System Features and Functions > * Logic Board Theory of Operation > * Diagnostics > * Logic Board Test Procedures > * Schematics > * PAL Equations > * Mnemonics > * Expansion Memory Locations > > As I said, it's pretty thick... has this been preserved in digital > form somewhere? Not that I'm aware of. Oh, how I'd love to have a PDF of that! I saw that manual ~22 years ago but didn't have access to a beefy photocopier. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mdavidson1963 at gmail.com Mon Oct 11 22:59:00 2010 From: mdavidson1963 at gmail.com (Mark Davidson) Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2010 20:59:00 -0700 Subject: at&t unix pc In-Reply-To: <4CB3D55E.4010001@neurotica.com> References: <4CB383AD.3000500@e-bbes.com> <4CB38B8B.3090601@brouhaha.com> <4CB39EE9.7090704@neurotica.com> <4CB3D55E.4010001@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Oct 11, 2010 at 8:26 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 10/11/10 10:48 PM, Mark Davidson wrote: >> >> Ok, I pulled out my 'black binder'. ?It's a copy of the AT&T Unix PC >> Reference Manual, and is for technicians doing component-level >> troubleshooting of the AT&T Unix PC logic board. ?It's pretty thick >> and contains sections on: >> >> * System Features and Functions >> * Logic Board Theory of Operation >> * Diagnostics >> * Logic Board Test Procedures >> * Schematics >> * PAL Equations >> * Mnemonics >> * Expansion Memory Locations >> >> As I said, it's pretty thick... has this been preserved in digital >> form somewhere? > > ?Not that I'm aware of. ?Oh, how I'd love to have a PDF of that! ?I saw that > manual ~22 years ago but didn't have access to a beefy photocopier. Ok, I'm open to suggestions. I have a scanner and can produce PDFs, but it would be a lot of pages. It would also take me some time, which is fine. Honestly, I've gotten so much out of this list and the discussions that, if I can give something back, that would make me happy. What's the procedure for doing this? Do I just give the PDFs I produce to bitsavers? Mark From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Oct 11 23:08:16 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2010 00:08:16 -0400 Subject: at&t unix pc In-Reply-To: References: <4CB383AD.3000500@e-bbes.com> <4CB38B8B.3090601@brouhaha.com> <4CB39EE9.7090704@neurotica.com> <4CB3D55E.4010001@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4CB3DF30.40107@neurotica.com> On 10/11/10 11:59 PM, Mark Davidson wrote: > On Mon, Oct 11, 2010 at 8:26 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: >> On 10/11/10 10:48 PM, Mark Davidson wrote: >>> >>> Ok, I pulled out my 'black binder'. It's a copy of the AT&T Unix PC >>> Reference Manual, and is for technicians doing component-level >>> troubleshooting of the AT&T Unix PC logic board. It's pretty thick >>> and contains sections on: >>> >>> * System Features and Functions >>> * Logic Board Theory of Operation >>> * Diagnostics >>> * Logic Board Test Procedures >>> * Schematics >>> * PAL Equations >>> * Mnemonics >>> * Expansion Memory Locations >>> >>> As I said, it's pretty thick... has this been preserved in digital >>> form somewhere? >> >> Not that I'm aware of. Oh, how I'd love to have a PDF of that! I saw that >> manual ~22 years ago but didn't have access to a beefy photocopier. > > Ok, I'm open to suggestions. I have a scanner and can produce PDFs, > but it would be a lot of pages. It would also take me some time, > which is fine. Honestly, I've gotten so much out of this list and the > discussions that, if I can give something back, that would make me > happy. What's the procedure for doing this? Do I just give the PDFs > I produce to bitsavers? I for one would thank you wholeheartedly. I believe Al has specific guidelines for scan settings, resolution, etc for his PDFs. It might be a good idea to find out what those are before doing any work. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mikelee at tdh.com Mon Oct 11 23:08:42 2010 From: mikelee at tdh.com (Michael Lee) Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2010 23:08:42 -0500 Subject: at&t unix pc In-Reply-To: References: <4CB383AD.3000500@e-bbes.com> <4CB38B8B.3090601@brouhaha.com> <4CB39EE9.7090704@neurotica.com> <4CB3D55E.4010001@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4CB3DF4A.3000204@tdh.com> Wow, actually that is the first time I heard of such binder existing! Would love to see a copy of that in digital form somehow! On 10/11/2010 10:59 PM, Mark Davidson wrote: > On Mon, Oct 11, 2010 at 8:26 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: >> On 10/11/10 10:48 PM, Mark Davidson wrote: >>> Ok, I pulled out my 'black binder'. It's a copy of the AT&T Unix PC >>> Reference Manual, and is for technicians doing component-level >>> troubleshooting of the AT&T Unix PC logic board. It's pretty thick >>> and contains sections on: >>> >>> * System Features and Functions >>> * Logic Board Theory of Operation >>> * Diagnostics >>> * Logic Board Test Procedures >>> * Schematics >>> * PAL Equations >>> * Mnemonics >>> * Expansion Memory Locations >>> >>> As I said, it's pretty thick... has this been preserved in digital >>> form somewhere? >> Not that I'm aware of. Oh, how I'd love to have a PDF of that! I saw that >> manual ~22 years ago but didn't have access to a beefy photocopier. > Ok, I'm open to suggestions. I have a scanner and can produce PDFs, > but it would be a lot of pages. It would also take me some time, > which is fine. Honestly, I've gotten so much out of this list and the > discussions that, if I can give something back, that would make me > happy. What's the procedure for doing this? Do I just give the PDFs > I produce to bitsavers? > > Mark From mdavidson1963 at gmail.com Mon Oct 11 23:54:47 2010 From: mdavidson1963 at gmail.com (Mark Davidson) Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2010 21:54:47 -0700 Subject: at&t unix pc In-Reply-To: <4CB3DF30.40107@neurotica.com> References: <4CB383AD.3000500@e-bbes.com> <4CB38B8B.3090601@brouhaha.com> <4CB39EE9.7090704@neurotica.com> <4CB3D55E.4010001@neurotica.com> <4CB3DF30.40107@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Oct 11, 2010 at 9:08 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 10/11/10 11:59 PM, Mark Davidson wrote: >> >> On Mon, Oct 11, 2010 at 8:26 PM, Dave McGuire >> ?wrote: >>> >>> On 10/11/10 10:48 PM, Mark Davidson wrote: >>>> >>>> Ok, I pulled out my 'black binder'. ?It's a copy of the AT&T Unix PC >>>> Reference Manual, and is for technicians doing component-level >>>> troubleshooting of the AT&T Unix PC logic board. ?It's pretty thick >>>> and contains sections on: >>>> >>>> * System Features and Functions >>>> * Logic Board Theory of Operation >>>> * Diagnostics >>>> * Logic Board Test Procedures >>>> * Schematics >>>> * PAL Equations >>>> * Mnemonics >>>> * Expansion Memory Locations >>>> >>>> As I said, it's pretty thick... has this been preserved in digital >>>> form somewhere? >>> >>> ?Not that I'm aware of. ?Oh, how I'd love to have a PDF of that! ?I saw >>> that >>> manual ~22 years ago but didn't have access to a beefy photocopier. >> >> Ok, I'm open to suggestions. ?I have a scanner and can produce PDFs, >> but it would be a lot of pages. ?It would also take me some time, >> which is fine. ?Honestly, I've gotten so much out of this list and the >> discussions that, if I can give something back, that would make me >> happy. ?What's the procedure for doing this? ?Do I just give the PDFs >> I produce to bitsavers? > > ?I for one would thank you wholeheartedly. > > ?I believe Al has specific guidelines for scan settings, resolution, etc for > his PDFs. ?It might be a good idea to find out what those are before doing > any work. If Al could send me the guidelines, I'll happily see what I can do. Mark From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Tue Oct 12 01:21:49 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2010 03:21:49 -0300 Subject: at&t unix pc References: <4CB383AD.3000500@e-bbes.com> <4CB38B8B.3090601@brouhaha.com> <4CB39EE9.7090704@neurotica.com> <4CB3D55E.4010001@neurotica.com> <4CB3DF30.40107@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <139f01cb69d6$769e1320$fbdc00bd@portajara> > I for one would thank you wholeheartedly. Make that two :) From mike at fenz.net Tue Oct 12 05:34:07 2010 From: mike at fenz.net (Mike van Bokhoven) Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2010 23:34:07 +1300 Subject: Dead Sega SC3000H In-Reply-To: References: <4CB383AD.3000500@e-bbes.com> <4CB38B8B.3090601@brouhaha.com> <4CB39EE9.7090704@neurotica.com> <4CB3D55E.4010001@neurotica.com> <4CB3DF30.40107@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4CB4399F.8030202@fenz.net> Hi everyone, I've been working on a Sega SC3000H: http://www.old-computers.com/museum/computer.asp?c=206 It seems to have the common problems that afflict these. Firstly, the 7805 regulator was dead. I pulled it and gave the machine 5V from an external supply, and it ran fine - apart from what looked like a horrible RAM fault. I can see it's trying to do something sensible, but the display is corrupt. So, I tried the next test for obvious RAM failure - are any of the RAM ICs getting unusually hot? Seven were barely warm, but one is almost too hot to touch. Now, this is annoying because I don't want to spend a great deal of cash on this machine, but I'd really like to get it going. I have two questions: - Am I jumping to conclusions re the faulty RAM? The ICs aren't socketed, can anyone suggest any worthwhile tests? - Does anyone know of somewhere I can get a MCM4517 P15 or equivalent, nice and cheap? One problem - I'm in New Zealand. I'm a software guy really, but I do enjoy getting stuck into the hardware from time to time! Mike From john_a_s2004 at hotmail.com Tue Oct 12 03:47:11 2010 From: john_a_s2004 at hotmail.com (John S) Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2010 08:47:11 +0000 Subject: Microwriter MW4 help Message-ID: Thanks, yes a schematic would be great. Can I post it to the web please? I'm sure Tony knows the following, included as background. Here's the adapter I used to read the 2564 in a 2764 programmer: 2564 pins?????? 2764 pins 20 (A11)??????? 23 (A11) 23 (A12)??????? 2 (A12) 2+27(CS1+CS2)?? 22 (OE) 1 (Vpp)???????? 28 (Vcc) 22 (PD/PGM)???? 20 (CE) (NC)??????????? 27 (PGM) All other pins connected straight through. The above can't be always used in the reverse direction (eg using a 2764 in a 2564 socket), as CS1 and CS2 may or may not be tied together depending on the circuit. Also programming a 2564 uses a different algorithm to programming a 2764. For example, on a 2764 Vpp can be left at programming voltage of 21V during a verify cycle, whilst on the 2564 Vpp is at 25V for programming and 5V for verifying / reading (I assume the 25C64 is similar but with a lower Vpp). Regards, John ============================================================== Tony Duell ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 11 15:29:35 CDT 2010 > I've finally made an adapter to read the 2564 on my programmer (which can o= > nly read the 2764). There were about 5 pins to rewire=2C I'll write some no= > tes later on the differences. > > I've upload the ROM image to: > > http://www.vintagecomputers.btinternet.co.uk/mw4/mw4.zip THanks. I've downloaded it, it unpacks OK. I wondered why the file was larger than ecxpected, but then saw you'd included both hex and binary images. I will probably burn it into a 27C64 (those I have, and my programmer can easily handle them) and make an adapter to use it in the MW4. Then we can see if that gets mine working. I won't be doing this just yet (I've gor various other things to do), but I will let you know how I get on when I do do it. If you are going to disassemble the ROM, do you need schematics of the MW4 hardware? -tony From mark at wickensonline.co.uk Tue Oct 12 04:36:11 2010 From: mark at wickensonline.co.uk (Mark Wickens) Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2010 10:36:11 +0100 Subject: Seagate ST39173N 9.1GB Narrow SCSI Drive failure Message-ID: <4CB42C0B.5000705@wickensonline.co.uk> Hi, Apologies that my first post to this list for a while is one requesting assistance, but my unjustified faith in hard drive technology has bitten me... The Seagate drive in my VAXstation 4000/90 (running OpenVMS 7.3) failed recently and it hadn't been backed up for quite a while. We had a power surge which tripped the main circuit breaker, and when I reset the breaker and turned the box back on the drive failed to spin up. The drive is recognized by the firmware, except that the capacity column shows ... instead of a figure. An LED on the controller circuit board lights a couple of times reinforcing that the drive electronics are talking across the SCSI bus, but as I say the drive refuses to spin up. The box was running a website dedicated to HECNet (it was at http://www.hecnet.eu) using the WASD webserver and was able to report on issues with the network and current HECnet nodes. My (limited) diagnostic skills would point towards a drive motor controller failure, or less likely sticking heads. Given that the drive has been powered down and up on a number of occasions without issue I'm thinking it is probably a controller failure rather than a head problem, but I'm open to alternative opinions. Does anyone have a Seagate ST39173N drive they would be prepared to part with for a reasonable amount of money? At the moment the only drives I can find are in the region of $150 which is more than I can comfortably part with on the off chance that swapping the controller board might give the drive new life. Many thanks for the help. Mark. From mtapley at swri.edu Tue Oct 12 09:43:15 2010 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2010 09:43:15 -0500 Subject: at&t unix pc (big black binder scan) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 5:34 -0500 10/12/10, Mark D. wrote: >If Al could send me the guidelines, I'll happily see what I can do. At 5:34 -0500 10/12/10, Alexandre quoted Dave: > > I for one would thank you wholeheartedly. > > Make that two :) ...three! -- - Mark 210-379-4635 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Large Asteroids headed toward planets inhabited by beings that don't have technology adequate to stop them: Think of it as Evolution in Fast-Forward. From snhirsch at gmail.com Tue Oct 12 07:15:23 2010 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2010 08:15:23 -0400 (EDT) Subject: at&t unix pc In-Reply-To: References: <4CB383AD.3000500@e-bbes.com> <4CB38B8B.3090601@brouhaha.com> <4CB39EE9.7090704@neurotica.com> <4CB3D55E.4010001@neurotica.com> <4CB3DF30.40107@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 11 Oct 2010, Mark Davidson wrote: >>>>> Ok, I pulled out my 'black binder'. ?It's a copy of the AT&T Unix PC >>>>> Reference Manual, and is for technicians doing component-level >>>>> troubleshooting of the AT&T Unix PC logic board. ?It's pretty thick >>>>> and contains sections on: >>>>> >>>>> * System Features and Functions >>>>> * Logic Board Theory of Operation >>>>> * Diagnostics >>>>> * Logic Board Test Procedures >>>>> * Schematics >>>>> * PAL Equations >>>>> * Mnemonics >>>>> * Expansion Memory Locations >>>>> >>>>> As I said, it's pretty thick... has this been preserved in digital >>>>> form somewhere? I have one of these here. Would be glad to split scanning duties with someone else. >> ?I believe Al has specific guidelines for scan settings, resolution, etc for >> his PDFs. ?It might be a good idea to find out what those are before doing >> any work. > > If Al could send me the guidelines, I'll happily see what I can do. Where are these available? On bitsavers? Steve -- From pete at dunnington.plus.com Tue Oct 12 11:23:11 2010 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2010 17:23:11 +0100 Subject: Seagate ST39173N 9.1GB Narrow SCSI Drive failure In-Reply-To: <4CB42C0B.5000705@wickensonline.co.uk> References: <4CB42C0B.5000705@wickensonline.co.uk> Message-ID: <4CB48B6F.60402@dunnington.plus.com> Mark Wickens wrote: > Does anyone have a Seagate ST39173N drive they would be prepared to part > with for a reasonable amount of money? I'd check for sticky heads first -- I've been caught that way when a Seagate drive that was used intermittently would not spin up one day. I don't have a ST39173N (9.1GB Barracuda narrow SCSI-2) but according to my (out of date!) list of spare drives, I might have a wide drive which should work with an adaptor, but it might not be a Seagate drive. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Oct 12 11:40:46 2010 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2010 11:40:46 -0500 Subject: at&t unix pc In-Reply-To: References: <4CB383AD.3000500@e-bbes.com> <4CB38B8B.3090601@brouhaha.com> <4CB39EE9.7090704@neurotica.com> <4CB3D55E.4010001@neurotica.com> <4CB3DF30.40107@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <201010121641.o9CGfUEV034879@billY.EZWIND.NET> At 07:15 AM 10/12/2010, Steven Hirsch wrote: >I have one of these here. Would be glad to split scanning duties with someone else. I mentioned it here once before, but I adore my Fujitsu ScanSnap. This is a ~$400 dedicated self-feeding scanner that comes bundled with Acrobat, a simple doc organizing program, and the ability to OCR its PDFs to make them searchable and copy-and-paste-able. Lots of options for resolution, color or not, auto or not, rotation, saves sets of presets, etc. Professional and useful. I've been using mine to reduce file cabinet after file cabinet of notes, records, bills, invoices, manuals, etc. to piles of PDFs on disk. - John From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Oct 12 11:45:06 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2010 12:45:06 -0400 Subject: at&t unix pc In-Reply-To: <201010121641.o9CGfUEV034879@billY.EZWIND.NET> References: <4CB383AD.3000500@e-bbes.com> <4CB38B8B.3090601@brouhaha.com> <4CB39EE9.7090704@neurotica.com> <4CB3D55E.4010001@neurotica.com> <4CB3DF30.40107@neurotica.com> <201010121641.o9CGfUEV034879@billY.EZWIND.NET> Message-ID: <4CB49092.2040607@neurotica.com> On 10/12/10 12:40 PM, John Foust wrote: > At 07:15 AM 10/12/2010, Steven Hirsch wrote: >> I have one of these here. Would be glad to split scanning duties with someone else. > > I mentioned it here once before, but I adore my Fujitsu ScanSnap. > This is a ~$400 dedicated self-feeding scanner that comes bundled with > Acrobat, a simple doc organizing program, and the ability to OCR its PDFs > to make them searchable and copy-and-paste-able. Lots of options for > resolution, color or not, auto or not, rotation, saves sets of presets, > etc. Professional and useful. > > I've been using mine to reduce file cabinet after file cabinet of notes, > records, bills, invoices, manuals, etc. to piles of PDFs on disk. Nice! How is its multi-platform support? I'm sure the doc organizing program is Windows-only, but what about the rest? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mdavidson1963 at gmail.com Tue Oct 12 12:00:56 2010 From: mdavidson1963 at gmail.com (Mark Davidson) Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2010 10:00:56 -0700 Subject: at&t unix pc In-Reply-To: <201010121641.o9CGfUEV034879@billY.EZWIND.NET> References: <4CB383AD.3000500@e-bbes.com> <4CB38B8B.3090601@brouhaha.com> <4CB39EE9.7090704@neurotica.com> <4CB3D55E.4010001@neurotica.com> <4CB3DF30.40107@neurotica.com> <201010121641.o9CGfUEV034879@billY.EZWIND.NET> Message-ID: On Tue, Oct 12, 2010 at 9:40 AM, John Foust wrote: > At 07:15 AM 10/12/2010, Steven Hirsch wrote: >>I have one of these here. ?Would be glad to split scanning duties with someone else. > > I mentioned it here once before, but I adore my Fujitsu ScanSnap. > This is a ~$400 dedicated self-feeding scanner that comes bundled with > Acrobat, a simple doc organizing program, and the ability to OCR its PDFs > to make them searchable and copy-and-paste-able. ?Lots of options for > resolution, color or not, auto or not, rotation, saves sets of presets, > etc. ?Professional and useful. > > I've been using mine to reduce file cabinet after file cabinet of notes, > records, bills, invoices, manuals, etc. to piles of PDFs on disk. > > - John > > John--- Which model do you have? Mark From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Oct 12 11:58:26 2010 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2010 11:58:26 -0500 Subject: Fujitsu ScanSnap In-Reply-To: <4CB49092.2040607@neurotica.com> References: <4CB383AD.3000500@e-bbes.com> <4CB38B8B.3090601@brouhaha.com> <4CB39EE9.7090704@neurotica.com> <4CB3D55E.4010001@neurotica.com> <4CB3DF30.40107@neurotica.com> <201010121641.o9CGfUEV034879@billY.EZWIND.NET> <4CB49092.2040607@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <201010121702.o9CH2bMl036061@billY.EZWIND.NET> At 11:45 AM 10/12/2010, Dave McGuire wrote: > Nice! How is its multi-platform support? I'm sure the doc organizing program is Windows-only, but what about the rest? They sell Mac and PC versions. The PC version comes with Acrobat Standard. The Mac version comes with Acrobat Professional, so it costs a bit more. A few minutes' googling today tells me that it works under Linux with SANE and the Windows stuff works under VirtualBox. http://lawyerist.com/fujitsu-scansnap-s1500-document-scanner/ As I said, apparently used by a lot of professionals. Another nice bit: they actively sell the consumables such as cleaning kits and recommending you replace the pick rollers every 100,000 sheets or the pad assemblies every 50,000 sheets. I haven't had any trouble with mine so far. Comes with a clear carrier sheet for holding odd-shaped items, and a clever mechanism for auto-rejoining some multi-page documents. http://scansnap.fujitsu.com/ - John From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Oct 12 12:19:13 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2010 13:19:13 -0400 Subject: Fujitsu ScanSnap In-Reply-To: <201010121702.o9CH2bMl036061@billY.EZWIND.NET> References: <4CB383AD.3000500@e-bbes.com> <4CB38B8B.3090601@brouhaha.com> <4CB39EE9.7090704@neurotica.com> <4CB3D55E.4010001@neurotica.com> <4CB3DF30.40107@neurotica.com> <201010121641.o9CGfUEV034879@billY.EZWIND.NET> <4CB49092.2040607@neurotica.com> <201010121702.o9CH2bMl036061@billY.EZWIND.NET> Message-ID: <4CB49891.9080607@neurotica.com> On 10/12/10 12:58 PM, John Foust wrote: >> Nice! How is its multi-platform support? I'm sure the doc organizing program is Windows-only, but what about the rest? > > They sell Mac and PC versions. The PC version comes with Acrobat Standard. > The Mac version comes with Acrobat Professional, so it costs a bit more. > > A few minutes' googling today tells me that it works under Linux > with SANE and the Windows stuff works under VirtualBox. > > http://lawyerist.com/fujitsu-scansnap-s1500-document-scanner/ > > As I said, apparently used by a lot of professionals. Another nice bit: > they actively sell the consumables such as cleaning kits and recommending > you replace the pick rollers every 100,000 sheets or the pad assemblies > every 50,000 sheets. I haven't had any trouble with mine so far. > > Comes with a clear carrier sheet for holding odd-shaped items, and > a clever mechanism for auto-rejoining some multi-page documents. > > http://scansnap.fujitsu.com/ Wow, that sounds like a seriously nice device. I'm going to have to put that on my wish list. Thanks for the info! -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Oct 12 13:50:00 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2010 19:50:00 +0100 (BST) Subject: at&t unix pc In-Reply-To: <4CB3DF30.40107@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Oct 12, 10 00:08:16 am Message-ID: [Unix PC schematics, etc, book] > > Ok, I'm open to suggestions. I have a scanner and can produce PDFs, > > but it would be a lot of pages. It would also take me some time, > > which is fine. Honestly, I've gotten so much out of this list and the > > discussions that, if I can give something back, that would make me > > happy. What's the procedure for doing this? Do I just give the PDFs > > I produce to bitsavers? > > I for one would thank you wholeheartedly. So would I, and I don't own a UnixPC. Reading old technical manuals is very interesting for me. And maybe one day I'll find such a machine, but they are very rare in the UK, and for various reasons I can't spend much money on classic computers at the momnet. But things can change... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Oct 12 14:01:01 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2010 20:01:01 +0100 (BST) Subject: Microwriter MW4 help In-Reply-To: from "John S" at Oct 12, 10 08:47:11 am Message-ID: > > > > > Thanks=2C yes a schematic would be great. Can I post it to the web please? Sure, but _you'll_ have to scan it. I don't own a scanner. And of course I will have to send it by sanil-mail > > I'm sure Tony knows the following=2C included as background. I didn;t _know_ it, but I am pretty sure I have the 2564 data sheet somewhere. I certainly have the 2764 one :-) > > Here's the adapter I used to read the 2564 in a 2764 programmer: > > > 2564 pins=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 2764 pins > 20 (A11)=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 23 (A11) > 23 (A12)=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 2 (A12) > 2+27(CS1+CS2)=A0=A0 22 (OE) > 1 (Vpp)=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 28 (Vcc) > 22 (PD/PGM)=A0=A0=A0=A0 20 (CE) > (NC)=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 27 (PGM) > > All other pins connected straight through. The above can't be always used i= > n the=20 > reverse direction (eg using a 2764 in a 2564 socket)=2C as CS1 and CS2 may = > or may not > be tied together depending on the circuit. Darn!. That may be where I got to before and sort-of gave up. Perhaps I will have to use a 2564, which means fidning/building a programmer that can handle them. -tony From charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net Tue Oct 12 14:08:51 2010 From: charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net (Charles) Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2010 14:08:51 -0500 Subject: Old calculators Message-ID: <47c9b6dqti3c9n840ksrq4hrf52a3emtr7@4ax.com> I have more calculators accumulated over 30+ years than I'll ever play with, so would like to find new homes for a few. http://i1181.photobucket.com/albums/x426/DrCharlesMorris/PA030021.jpg From left to right: -RadioShack EC-220 (Cat No 65-604). Working. -Unitrex "Memory-8". Missing battery compartment cover. Working. -Commodore MM2 "Minuteman 2". Not working. Comes with wall wart. -TI SR-51-II. Not working. Several years ago I put new nicads in the battery pack and it worked then. With case, wart & manual. -Unknown mfg. "4-banger" with LCD display and incandescent backlight. Works but has air bubble partially obscuring LSD's 2/3. This one was written up in "73 Magazine" in the late '70's or early '80's and was available from Meshna, Poly Paks or a similar surplus place. Would like to get $10 for all five, plus shipping from US zip 65775. From mark at wickensonline.co.uk Tue Oct 12 13:15:53 2010 From: mark at wickensonline.co.uk (Mark Wickens) Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2010 19:15:53 +0100 Subject: Seagate ST39173N 9.1GB Narrow SCSI Drive failure In-Reply-To: <4CB48B6F.60402@dunnington.plus.com> References: <4CB42C0B.5000705@wickensonline.co.uk> <4CB48B6F.60402@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <4CB4A5D9.4010501@wickensonline.co.uk> On 12/10/10 17:23, Pete Turnbull wrote: > Mark Wickens wrote: > >> Does anyone have a Seagate ST39173N drive they would be prepared to >> part with for a reasonable amount of money? > > I'd check for sticky heads first -- I've been caught that way when a > Seagate drive that was used intermittently would not spin up one day. > > I don't have a ST39173N (9.1GB Barracuda narrow SCSI-2) but according > to my (out of date!) list of spare drives, I might have a wide drive > which should work with an adaptor, but it might not be a Seagate drive. > Hi Pete, Thanks for the help. I'll need to track down exactly the same pcb down to firmware revision if I have any hope of swapping it. I am going to try the drive tonight in some different configurations (upside down/on its side) to see if anything different happens. However, the drive was on 24/7 before it failed due to the power issue, so I think realistically it is more likely to be a blown pcb. I've now moved over to using a BA356 enclosure with volume shadowing and the works, so this problem won't happen again hopefully! Regards, Mark. From lproven at gmail.com Tue Oct 12 14:35:16 2010 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2010 20:35:16 +0100 Subject: Seagate ST39173N 9.1GB Narrow SCSI Drive failure In-Reply-To: <4CB4A5D9.4010501@wickensonline.co.uk> References: <4CB42C0B.5000705@wickensonline.co.uk> <4CB48B6F.60402@dunnington.plus.com> <4CB4A5D9.4010501@wickensonline.co.uk> Message-ID: On 12 October 2010 19:15, Mark Wickens wrote: > On 12/10/10 17:23, Pete Turnbull wrote: >> >> Mark Wickens wrote: >> >>> Does anyone have a Seagate ST39173N drive they would be prepared to part >>> with for a reasonable amount of money? >> >> I'd check for sticky heads first -- I've been caught that way when a >> Seagate drive that was used intermittently would not spin up one day. >> >> I don't have a ST39173N (9.1GB Barracuda narrow SCSI-2) but according to >> my (out of date!) list of spare drives, I might have a wide drive which >> should work with an adaptor, but it might not be a Seagate drive. >> > Hi Pete, > > Thanks for the help. I'll need to track down exactly the same pcb down to > firmware revision if I have any hope of swapping it. I have a few 9.1GB SCSI drives around. I'll try to remember to check, but if you've not heard in a few days, prod me by direct email. -- Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Tue Oct 12 15:18:07 2010 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2010 13:18:07 -0700 Subject: Old calculators In-Reply-To: <47c9b6dqti3c9n840ksrq4hrf52a3emtr7@4ax.com> References: <47c9b6dqti3c9n840ksrq4hrf52a3emtr7@4ax.com> Message-ID: On 2010 Oct 12, at 12:08 PM, Charles wrote: > I have more calculators accumulated over 30+ years than I'll ever > play with, so would like to find new homes for a few. > > http://i1181.photobucket.com/albums/x426/DrCharlesMorris/PA030021.jpg > From left to right: > > -RadioShack EC-220 (Cat No 65-604). Working. > -Unitrex "Memory-8". Missing battery compartment cover. Working. > -Commodore MM2 "Minuteman 2". Not working. Comes with wall wart. > -TI SR-51-II. Not working. Several years ago I put new nicads in > the battery pack and it worked then. With case, wart & manual. > -Unknown mfg. "4-banger" with LCD display and incandescent > backlight. Works but has air bubble partially obscuring LSD's 2/3. > This one was written up in "73 Magazine" in the late '70's or > early '80's and was available from Meshna, Poly Paks or a similar > surplus place. That unit is notable as it was very early use of an LCD. Should date from around 1972/3. See the Lloyds Accumatic 70 or Rapidman 1208LC: http://www.cs.ubc.ca/~hilpert/eec/calcs/deskGallery2.html http://www.cs.ubc.ca/~hilpert/eec/calcs/Lloyds70.html http://www.cs.ubc.ca/~hilpert/eec/calcs/Rapidman1208LC.html Somebody OEM'd the electronics for different labels. (I have enough of them, thanks) > Would like to get $10 for all five, plus shipping from US zip > 65775. From silent700 at gmail.com Tue Oct 12 15:33:04 2010 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2010 15:33:04 -0500 Subject: at&t unix pc In-Reply-To: <4CB39EE9.7090704@neurotica.com> References: <4CB383AD.3000500@e-bbes.com> <4CB38B8B.3090601@brouhaha.com> <4CB39EE9.7090704@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Oct 11, 2010 at 6:34 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > ?You're talking about StarLAN-10, which is very different from StarLAN. ?I > don't recall if they were labeled as such. This is a fuzzy memory, but I do recall when I first got my 3B1s, reading about the Starlan it used and how it was not the same Starlan for which one can find a few bits on ebay. There was supposed to be a bridge device out there to 10BT ethernet. And of course there is the quite-rare 3B1 10BT card. I have at home a Starlan testing device! Not sure *which* Starlan that is for, though. -j From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Oct 12 15:50:23 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2010 16:50:23 -0400 Subject: at&t unix pc In-Reply-To: <4CB39EE9.7090704@neurotica.com> References: <4CB383AD.3000500@e-bbes.com> <4CB38B8B.3090601@brouhaha.com> <4CB39EE9.7090704@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On 10/11/10, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 10/11/10 6:28 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >>>> I even have a few official StarLAN transceivers and such - >>>> they work fine on a 10BaseT network. >>>> >>> StarLAN does *NOT* operate on a 10BaseT network. The signalling is >>> similar, but the data rate is 1 Mbps rather than 10 Mbps. > >> Is it possible that different kinds of devices were all badged "StarLAN"? > > You're talking about StarLAN-10, which is very different from > StarLAN. I don't recall if they were labeled as such. Ah. That may be. I'll dig stuff out from behind the workbench and see how it's marked. -ethan From doc at vaxen.net Tue Oct 12 18:41:46 2010 From: doc at vaxen.net (Doc) Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2010 18:41:46 -0500 Subject: Seagate ST39173N 9.1GB Narrow SCSI Drive failure In-Reply-To: <4CB42C0B.5000705@wickensonline.co.uk> References: <4CB42C0B.5000705@wickensonline.co.uk> Message-ID: <4CB4F23A.4010405@vaxen.net> Mark Wickens wrote: > > My (limited) diagnostic skills would point towards a drive motor > controller failure, or less likely sticking heads. Given that the drive > has been powered down and up on a number of occasions without issue I'm > thinking it is probably a controller failure rather than a head problem, > but I'm open to alternative opinions. I've gotten my data off of more than one SCSI drive by freezing it and whacking it. Let it stabilize in the freezer for a few hours, drop it flat from a foot or so, and plug it in *quickly* to a system that can take a backup. It's a one-shot deal - that's invariably been the last time the drive spun up. Doc From snhirsch at gmail.com Tue Oct 12 16:56:56 2010 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2010 17:56:56 -0400 (EDT) Subject: at&t unix pc In-Reply-To: References: <4CB383AD.3000500@e-bbes.com> <4CB38B8B.3090601@brouhaha.com> <4CB39EE9.7090704@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 12 Oct 2010, Jason T wrote: > On Mon, Oct 11, 2010 at 6:34 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: >> ?You're talking about StarLAN-10, which is very different from StarLAN. ?I >> don't recall if they were labeled as such. > > This is a fuzzy memory, but I do recall when I first got my 3B1s, > reading about the Starlan it used and how it was not the same Starlan > for which one can find a few bits on ebay. There was supposed to be a > bridge device out there to 10BT ethernet. And of course there is the > quite-rare 3B1 10BT card. I was lucky enough to score the 3B1 Ethernet adapter. And, yes, the Woolongong TCP stack sucks majorly! -- From john_a_s2004 at hotmail.com Tue Oct 12 17:03:40 2010 From: john_a_s2004 at hotmail.com (John S) Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2010 22:03:40 +0000 Subject: Microwriter MW4 help In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > From: john_a_s2004 at hotmail.com > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: RE:Microwriter MW4 help > Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2010 08:47:11 +0000 > > Here's the adapter I used to read the 2564 in a 2764 programmer: > > > 2564 pins 2764 pins > 20 (A11) 23 (A11) > 23 (A12) 2 (A12) > 2+27(CS1+CS2) 22 (OE) > 1 (Vpp) 28 (Vcc) > 22 (PD/PGM) 20 (CE) > (NC) 27 (PGM) > > All other pins connected straight through. The above can't be always used in the > reverse direction (eg using a 2764 in a 2564 socket), as CS1 and CS2 may or may not > be tied together depending on the circuit. > On the 2564 the chip is selected when CS1 and CS2 are both low, I thought perhaps a pair of diodes could be used to feed an OR of these signals to the OE (active low) on an 2764? If not then a 74LSxxx would have to pressed into use. Regards, John From nick.allen at comcast.net Tue Oct 12 23:02:42 2010 From: nick.allen at comcast.net (nick.allen at comcast.net) Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2010 04:02:42 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Xerox Alto on ebay (not mine!) Message-ID: <1694795275.397504.1286942562971.JavaMail.root@sz0058a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Well, I thought I was the only one to have a Xerox Alto, appears there is another one in Chicago and it was just put on ebay: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=320602942545&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT#ht_4086wt_1139 Looks identical to mine (File Server, Xlto II XM), and having the same boot issues I am having (CRT warming up, but no image). Will be interesting to see what it goes for (as there is no reserve), I just wish I could get the gentlemen selling it to assist me in getting mine repaired and working (as he mentions he has experience working on these). From pete at dunnington.plus.com Wed Oct 13 03:00:50 2010 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2010 09:00:50 +0100 Subject: Seagate ST39173N 9.1GB Narrow SCSI Drive failure In-Reply-To: <4CB4F23A.4010405@vaxen.net> References: <4CB42C0B.5000705@wickensonline.co.uk> <4CB4F23A.4010405@vaxen.net> Message-ID: <4CB56732.80303@dunnington.plus.com> Doc wrote: > Mark Wickens wrote: >> >> My (limited) diagnostic skills would point towards a drive motor >> controller failure, or less likely sticking heads. Given that the >> drive has been powered down and up on a number of occasions without >> issue I'm thinking it is probably a controller failure rather than a >> head problem, but I'm open to alternative opinions. > > I've gotten my data off of more than one SCSI drive by freezing it and > whacking it. Let it stabilize in the freezer for a few hours, drop it > flat from a foot or so, and plug it in *quickly* to a system that can > take a backup. > > It's a one-shot deal - that's invariably been the last time the drive > spun up. Useful, I agree, and often successful, though one should remember to check that the electronics aren't covered in condensation when you power it up :-) -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Wed Oct 13 05:38:29 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2010 11:38:29 +0100 Subject: Seagate ST39173N 9.1GB Narrow SCSI Drive failure In-Reply-To: <4CB56732.80303@dunnington.plus.com> References: <4CB42C0B.5000705@wickensonline.co.uk> <4CB4F23A.4010405@vaxen.net> <4CB56732.80303@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <4CB58C25.8020909@philpem.me.uk> On 13/10/10 09:00, Pete Turnbull wrote: > Useful, I agree, and often successful, though one should remember to > check that the electronics aren't covered in condensation when you power > it up :-) Get a couple of silica gel pouches and a Ziplock bag -- put the silica gel pouches in the bag, followed by the HDD, then seal it. Put the sealed bag in the freezer and leave it for a while (say an hour or so). Worked for me the last time I did this... -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From jfoust at threedee.com Wed Oct 13 06:37:03 2010 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2010 06:37:03 -0500 Subject: Seagate ST39173N 9.1GB Narrow SCSI Drive failure In-Reply-To: <4CB58C25.8020909@philpem.me.uk> References: <4CB42C0B.5000705@wickensonline.co.uk> <4CB4F23A.4010405@vaxen.net> <4CB56732.80303@dunnington.plus.com> <4CB58C25.8020909@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <201010131142.o9DBg25t073697@billY.EZWIND.NET> At 05:38 AM 10/13/2010, Philip Pemberton wrote: >Get a couple of silica gel pouches and a Ziplock bag -- put the silica gel pouches in the bag, followed by the HDD, then seal it. Put the sealed bag in the freezer and leave it for a while (say an hour or so). The condensation happens after you take the cold metal item out of the freezer and into warm humid air, no? - John From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Wed Oct 13 08:35:32 2010 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2010 08:35:32 -0500 Subject: Seagate ST39173N 9.1GB Narrow SCSI Drive failure In-Reply-To: <4CB56732.80303@dunnington.plus.com> References: <4CB42C0B.5000705@wickensonline.co.uk> <4CB4F23A.4010405@vaxen.net> <4CB56732.80303@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <4CB5B5A4.2080802@gmail.com> Pete Turnbull wrote: > Doc wrote: >> Mark Wickens wrote: >>> >>> My (limited) diagnostic skills would point towards a drive motor >>> controller failure, or less likely sticking heads. Given that the >>> drive has been powered down and up on a number of occasions without >>> issue I'm thinking it is probably a controller failure rather than a >>> head problem, but I'm open to alternative opinions. >> >> I've gotten my data off of more than one SCSI drive by freezing it >> and whacking it. Let it stabilize in the freezer for a few hours, >> drop it flat from a foot or so, and plug it in *quickly* to a system >> that can take a backup. >> >> It's a one-shot deal - that's invariably been the last time the >> drive spun up. > > Useful, I agree, and often successful, though one should remember to > check that the electronics aren't covered in condensation when you power > it up :-) Indeed. I've used big pans of ice sat upon the drive before as a way of keeping the temperature down long enough to get the data off - seems to work well (just use something as a non-conductive barrier on the PCB side). If that Seagate drive is the one I'm thinking of, they had a reputation for running hot and slowly cooking themselves :-( I think I have one with a narrow interface still, but it's overseas so unfortunately I'm not getting to it any time soon. If the problem is heads stuck to platters, then worst-case you could open the drive up and try freeing them by turning the spindle manually - I've had good results with that in the past. Do it in as clean an environment that you can manage (and ditch the drive afterwards, obviously). cheers Jules From curt at atarimuseum.com Wed Oct 13 08:51:16 2010 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2010 09:51:16 -0400 Subject: Xerox Alto on ebay (not mine!) In-Reply-To: <1694795275.397504.1286942562971.JavaMail.root@sz0058a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> References: <1694795275.397504.1286942562971.JavaMail.root@sz0058a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <4CB5B954.4030906@atarimuseum.com> MAJOR DROOLAGE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I wish I had the spare $$$ {tears} nick.allen at comcast.net wrote: > Well, I thought I was the only one to have a Xerox Alto, appears there is another one in Chicago and it was just put on ebay: > > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=320602942545&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT#ht_4086wt_1139 > > > Looks identical to mine (File Server, Xlto II XM), and having the same boot issues I am having (CRT warming up, but no image). > > > Will be interesting to see what it goes for (as there is no reserve), I just wish I could get the gentlemen selling it to assist me in getting mine repaired and working (as he mentions he has experience working on these). > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 9.0.862 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3192 - Release Date: 10/12/10 02:34:00 > > From jfoust at threedee.com Wed Oct 13 08:55:50 2010 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2010 08:55:50 -0500 Subject: Cyanoacrylate and baking soda (was Re: Multimeter recomendations) In-Reply-To: <20100921205122.M52364@shell.lmi.net> References: <4C98BCEB.2040608@neurotica.com> <20100921111045.Y46522@shell.lmi.net> <201009212009.o8LK9qqL010433@billY.EZWIND.NET> <20100921140107.L52364@shell.lmi.net> <201009212127.o8LLRkZ7013917@billY.EZWIND.NET> <20100921205122.M52364@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <201010131356.o9DDu10t080923@billY.EZWIND.NET> At 10:54 PM 9/21/2010, Fred Cisin wrote: >> >up with joining plastic parts with cyano-acrylate (super-glue) and then >> >running a soldering iron along the joint. >On Tue, 21 Sep 2010, John Foust wrote: >> What does that do? Heat helps it? >Welding the joint at the surface. >Even that shallow weld substantially reduces the stress on the joint. >Obviously only suitable for SOME types of plastics. While googling for rubber restorer alternatives to improve the pickup rollers on old Laserjets (in particular the use of Marvel Mystery Oil) I stumbled on discussions of mixing baking soda with super-glues. It acts as a hardening accelerant (leading to exothermy) and as a filler of small gaps. It sounds like it hardens almost instantly, ready for sanding and paint. - John From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Oct 13 09:06:08 2010 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2010 07:06:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Cyanoacrylate and baking soda (was Re: Multimeter recomendations) In-Reply-To: <201010131356.o9DDu10t080923@billY.EZWIND.NET> References: <4C98BCEB.2040608@neurotica.com> <20100921111045.Y46522@shell.lmi.net> <201009212009.o8LK9qqL010433@billY.EZWIND.NET> <20100921140107.L52364@shell.lmi.net> <201009212127.o8LLRkZ7013917@billY.EZWIND.NET> <20100921205122.M52364@shell.lmi.net> <201010131356.o9DDu10t080923@billY.EZWIND.NET> Message-ID: On Wed, 13 Oct 2010, John Foust wrote: > At 10:54 PM 9/21/2010, Fred Cisin wrote: >>>> up with joining plastic parts with cyano-acrylate (super-glue) and then >>>> running a soldering iron along the joint. >> On Tue, 21 Sep 2010, John Foust wrote: >>> What does that do? Heat helps it? >> Welding the joint at the surface. >> Even that shallow weld substantially reduces the stress on the joint. >> Obviously only suitable for SOME types of plastics. > > While googling for rubber restorer alternatives to improve the pickup > rollers on old Laserjets (in particular the use of Marvel Mystery Oil) > I stumbled on discussions of mixing baking soda with super-glues. > > It acts as a hardening accelerant (leading to exothermy) and as a filler > of small gaps. It sounds like it hardens almost instantly, ready for > sanding and paint. > Those of us that build R/C airplanes use a product called "microbaloons" that are used this same way, quite often mixed with epoxy. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Oct 13 09:47:02 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2010 10:47:02 -0400 Subject: at&t unix pc In-Reply-To: References: <4CB383AD.3000500@e-bbes.com> <4CB38B8B.3090601@brouhaha.com> <4CB39EE9.7090704@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On 10/12/10, Steven Hirsch wrote: > On Tue, 12 Oct 2010, Jason T wrote: > And of course there is the quite-rare 3B1 10BT card. > > I was lucky enough to score the 3B1 Ethernet adapter. It makes one wonder then how hard it would be to rig up a card with a Lance chip (7990) and either IDE or SCSI - I know there are "memory expansion" slots, but don't know how finicky the machine might be about borrowing some of that address space for I/O (or if the slots could decode regions already _in_ I/O space). Abstractly, I know how to do this on M68M machines, but I lack specific knowledge of the innards of the 3B1/7300 to predict how this would go. Of course, the expected market of such a peripheral would be somewhat small, and I suppose if it were easy, there would have been something like it 15 years ago. Still - it's easy to dream one up. Back when they were new, I would have loved to have had one, but they were priced far out of my reach (though many of my local friends who worked at the Columbus Bell Labs/Western Electric plant bought them through employee discounts - we were all part of a county-wide UUCP network in the days before ISPs and dialup PPP links were common. Later, many of the 7300s were gradually replaced by 386s running Interactive UNIX, which I _could_ afford). > And, yes, the Woolongong TCP stack sucks majorly! Was there ever an attempt made at a replacement, or was the nature of the machine (i.e., closed-source controlled by AT&T) such that user-initiated projects were doomed to fail? -ethan From IanK at vulcan.com Wed Oct 13 10:56:59 2010 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2010 08:56:59 -0700 Subject: Xerox Alto on ebay (not mine!) In-Reply-To: <4CB5B954.4030906@atarimuseum.com> References: <1694795275.397504.1286942562971.JavaMail.root@sz0058a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>, <4CB5B954.4030906@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: I think you speak for every ClassicCmp subscriber - except for the ones who already have an Alto. :-) -- Ian ________________________________________ From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Curt @ Atari Museum [curt at atarimuseum.com] Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2010 6:51 AM To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Xerox Alto on ebay (not mine!) MAJOR DROOLAGE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I wish I had the spare $$$ {tears} nick.allen at comcast.net wrote: > Well, I thought I was the only one to have a Xerox Alto, appears there is another one in Chicago and it was just put on ebay: > > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=320602942545&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT#ht_4086wt_1139 > > > Looks identical to mine (File Server, Xlto II XM), and having the same boot issues I am having (CRT warming up, but no image). > > > Will be interesting to see what it goes for (as there is no reserve), I just wish I could get the gentlemen selling it to assist me in getting mine repaired and working (as he mentions he has experience working on these). > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 9.0.862 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3192 - Release Date: 10/12/10 02:34:00 > > From cclist at sydex.com Wed Oct 13 11:17:07 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2010 09:17:07 -0700 Subject: Xerox Alto on ebay (not mine!) In-Reply-To: References: <1694795275.397504.1286942562971.JavaMail.root@sz0058a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>, <4CB5B954.4030906@atarimuseum.com>, Message-ID: <4CB57913.21405.27BD95@cclist.sydex.com> On 13 Oct 2010 at 8:56, Ian King wrote: > I think you speak for every ClassicCmp subscriber - except for the > ones who already have an Alto. :-) -- Ian Not really--my first question would be "What would I do with it?" At my age, such answers don't come easily. --Chuck From teoz at neo.rr.com Wed Oct 13 11:42:06 2010 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2010 12:42:06 -0400 Subject: Xerox Alto on ebay (not mine!) References: <1694795275.397504.1286942562971.JavaMail.root@sz0058a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>, <4CB5B954.4030906@atarimuseum.com>, <4CB57913.21405.27BD95@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <1D7E779D9BAD4DF081730566A31C3E75@dell8300> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chuck Guzis" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2010 12:17 PM Subject: RE: Xerox Alto on ebay (not mine!) > On 13 Oct 2010 at 8:56, Ian King wrote: > >> I think you speak for every ClassicCmp subscriber - except for the >> ones who already have an Alto. :-) -- Ian > > Not really--my first question would be "What would I do with it?" At > my age, such answers don't come easily. > > --Chuck > The usual where would you put it, how much money would you have to shell out to buy it and ship it, and once here what exactly would you do with it? There are many old machines that are worth preserving but are better off in a museum then in somebody's cluttered basement left to rot. I can see snagging that unit just to learn how it worked and refurbishing it, but eventually a museum should probably get it unless somebody really has a use for it. How rare are they anyway? From cclist at sydex.com Wed Oct 13 11:57:30 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2010 09:57:30 -0700 Subject: Xerox Alto on ebay (not mine!) In-Reply-To: <1D7E779D9BAD4DF081730566A31C3E75@dell8300> References: <1694795275.397504.1286942562971.JavaMail.root@sz0058a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>, <1D7E779D9BAD4DF081730566A31C3E75@dell8300> Message-ID: <4CB5828A.3497.4CB5F0@cclist.sydex.com> On 13 Oct 2010 at 12:42, Teo Zenios wrote: > The usual where would you put it, how much money would you have to > shell out to buy it and ship it, and once here what exactly would you > do with it? > > There are many old machines that are worth preserving but are better > off in a museum then in somebody's cluttered basement left to rot. I > can see snagging that unit just to learn how it worked and > refurbishing it, but eventually a museum should probably get it unless > somebody really has a use for it. How rare are they anyway? Pretty much my feeling. I look at the not-to-distant time when I'll have to move and downsize, or worse yet, just plain die and folks will have to select the most expeditious way to dispose of what I have. I no longer accept any vintage gear unless it's small and unusual and I can think of a use for it. Let the museums and folks with warehouse space have the stuff. Anybody want a NEC Spinwriter? I gave in to a moment of weakness and took it in. Now it sits in my shop, neglected. --Chuck From curt at atarimuseum.com Wed Oct 13 12:05:29 2010 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2010 13:05:29 -0400 Subject: Xerox Alto on ebay (not mine!) In-Reply-To: <4CB5828A.3497.4CB5F0@cclist.sydex.com> References: <1694795275.397504.1286942562971.JavaMail.root@sz0058a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>, <1D7E779D9BAD4DF081730566A31C3E75@dell8300> <4CB5828A.3497.4CB5F0@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4CB5E6D9.4020202@atarimuseum.com> I've narrowed my collecting interests outside of Atari specifically to only Mindset and Corvus, though I drool over something like a Xerox Alto, I just can't dedicate the time and space for another orphan and I have to stay focused.... otherwise I'll never get the core work I want to do done, plus if my wife sees me haul another major classic computing item or arcade machine into the house, I'm gonna be sleeping out in the shed :-) Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 13 Oct 2010 at 12:42, Teo Zenios wrote: > > > >> The usual where would you put it, how much money would you have to >> shell out to buy it and ship it, and once here what exactly would you >> do with it? >> >> There are many old machines that are worth preserving but are better >> off in a museum then in somebody's cluttered basement left to rot. I >> can see snagging that unit just to learn how it worked and >> refurbishing it, but eventually a museum should probably get it unless >> somebody really has a use for it. How rare are they anyway? >> > > Pretty much my feeling. I look at the not-to-distant time when I'll > have to move and downsize, or worse yet, just plain die and folks > will have to select the most expeditious way to dispose of what I > have. > > I no longer accept any vintage gear unless it's small and unusual and > I can think of a use for it. Let the museums and folks with > warehouse space have the stuff. > > Anybody want a NEC Spinwriter? I gave in to a moment of weakness and > took it in. Now it sits in my shop, neglected. > > --Chuck > > > > > From legalize at xmission.com Wed Oct 13 12:16:08 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2010 11:16:08 -0600 Subject: Xerox Alto on ebay (not mine!) In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 13 Oct 2010 12:42:06 -0400. <1D7E779D9BAD4DF081730566A31C3E75@dell8300> Message-ID: In article <1D7E779D9BAD4DF081730566A31C3E75 at dell8300>, "Teo Zenios" writes: > The usual where would you put it, I'd store it in my warehouse with the rest of the gear for my computer graphics history museum. > how much money would you have to shell out > to buy it and ship it, Shipping is probably $200-300 for proper packing and freight shipping. Current bidding is $560, I'm expecting it to sell for $750 at a minimum, maybe $1000+ once the snipers have their say. While it would be nice to have one of these, at this point I can think of much more effective things I could do to improve my museum with the same amount of money. However, as time goes on, it becomes harder to find items for the museum that fill a gap and the more exotic items start working their way up the priority list. > and once here what exactly would you do with it? Restore it to working condition and occasionally exhibit it functioning. Usually exhibit video of it functioning. For an item like this, I would be treating its restoration like the way the PDP-1 team worked at CHM. > There are many old machines that are worth preserving but are better off in > a museum then in somebody's cluttered basement left to rot. I highly doubt that anyone on this list leaves stuff "to rot" in their basement. > How rare are they anyway? I would hazard a guess that less than 25 units are still in existence. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From jdr_use at bluewin.ch Wed Oct 13 12:58:45 2010 From: jdr_use at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen) Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2010 19:58:45 +0200 Subject: Xerox Alto on ebay (not mine!) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CB5F355.6090905@bluewin.ch> On 10/13/2010 07:16 PM, Richard wrote: > In article<1D7E779D9BAD4DF081730566A31C3E75 at dell8300>, > "Teo Zenios" writes: > > >> The usual where would you put it, >> > I'd store it in my warehouse with the rest of the gear for my computer > graphics history museum. > > >> how much money would you have to shell out >> to buy it and ship it, >> > Shipping is probably $200-300 for proper packing and freight shipping. > > Current bidding is $560, I'm expecting it to sell for $750 at a > minimum, maybe $1000+ once the snipers have their say. While it would > I would expect it to fetch more. I would certainly pay more, if I could get it to Europe.. Jos Dreesen From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Oct 13 13:00:26 2010 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2010 11:00:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Xerox Alto on ebay (not mine!) In-Reply-To: <4CB57913.21405.27BD95@cclist.sydex.com> References: <1694795275.397504.1286942562971.JavaMail.root@sz0058a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>, <4CB5B954.4030906@atarimuseum.com>, <4CB57913.21405.27BD95@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 13 Oct 2010, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 13 Oct 2010 at 8:56, Ian King wrote: > >> I think you speak for every ClassicCmp subscriber - except for the >> ones who already have an Alto. :-) -- Ian > > Not really--my first question would be "What would I do with it?" At > my age, such answers don't come easily. I couldn't agree more with your first question. Honestly the only answer I can come up with is to donate it. My money is better spent elsewhere, like on a 19th century Petzval lens (still looking for a suitable one) for my Photography. The only classic computer stuff I've collected in the past several years was a couple carloads that were mostly Commodore stuff. It helped out my Aunt to dispose of stuff from someone she knew that died, and it gave me spares as well as several items I've wanted since they were new. I'm looking to dispose of stuff, not get more. Sadly I've found an interesting roadblock to disposing of stuff, and that is finding free time to dig stuff out and get rid of it. Like my money, my time is better spent elsewhere, and it is spent on my family and my photography. People change over time, and with those changes what is important changes. Zane From fmc at reanimators.org Wed Oct 13 13:10:06 2010 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2010 11:10:06 -0700 Subject: Fujitsu ScanSnap (was Re: at&t unix pc) References: <4CB383AD.3000500@e-bbes.com> <4CB38B8B.3090601@brouhaha.com> <4CB39EE9.7090704@neurotica.com> <4CB3D55E.4010001@neurotica.com> <4CB3DF30.40107@neurotica.com> <201010121641.o9CGfUEV034879@billY.EZWIND.NET> Message-ID: <201010131810.o9DIA7cj093172@lots.reanimators.org> John Foust wrote: > At 07:15 AM 10/12/2010, Steven Hirsch wrote: >>I have one of these here. Would be glad to split scanning duties with someone else. > > I mentioned it here once before, but I adore my Fujitsu ScanSnap. > This is a ~$400 dedicated self-feeding scanner that comes bundled with > Acrobat, a simple doc organizing program, and the ability to OCR its PDFs > to make them searchable and copy-and-paste-able. Lots of options for > resolution, color or not, auto or not, rotation, saves sets of presets, > etc. Professional and useful. I have the S1500M (Mac OS X flavor) and have been able to convince it to produce files that I can make good enough for my purposes. What follows are some notes on what I've found and how I deal with it. Having been through the file boxes of old account statements, I turned my attention to books which I had multiple copies of so that I can have one at home and one at the office, for reference. One in PDF on the MacBook would be somewhat handier. I took Al's standards as a guideline. (See , look for the heading "The PDF DOcument Format" and start reading there, but I also got some verbal comments from Al and watched him do some scans with his setup.) 400dpi black-and-white scans, maybe 600dpi if there is fine-pitch text. The dot pitches given are indicated to support better OCR quality. Pages with primarily photographic content may be scanned as "grayscale" or "color" but this leads to them being saved through a DCT filter (i.e. JPEG-flavor lossy compression) in the PDF. Sometimes you have to choose what sucks less. I scan covers as 150dpi color documents (yielding JPEGs) with a flatbed scanner. Yeah, a bit chunky, but good enough for me. It can be important to create a ScanSnap scanning profile (preset) that forces black-and-white scans. In my experience letting the ScanSnap software make the decision how to scan a page will have it scanning yellowed or other non-white-paper pages in color with resulting use of the lossy DCT filter (and lower dpi too). One of the books I scanned early on was the Turbo C 2.0 Reference Guide. Yeah, I know, it's already up on bitsavers.org. I wanted to see how the output from the ScanSnap Mac software compared with the output from Al's process. The answer was, it produces PDF files that are two to three times as large. This is because it encodes black-and-white page scans with the Deflate filter, which is all very well and good and not lossy, but the CCITTFax filter simply yields better compression. The Acrobat 8 Pro (bundled with the ScanSnap) can do this for you: you set up a Preflight profile that includes the fixup "Compress all monochrome images using CCITT Group 4", and then open the PDF and execute that Preflight profile to re-compress the black-and-white page scans. I believe use of the Deflate filter is a (mis)feature of OS X Core Graphics; I observe that if I edit a PDF with Preview and save it, CCITTFax compressed monochrome images are re-compressed with the Deflate filter and the file grows much larger. Scanning is fast and easy and reasonably reliable. The ScanSnap is pretty good about detecting paper jams and misfeeds and multiple-page feeds; in 53000 pages through I think I've found one case where it didn't detect a multi-page feed. How do I detect that? I use Acrobat to number pages in the PDF with numbers that correspond to the page numbers in the scanned book. If they don't match up at the end I know I have a problem. Mind, for some books this can take considerable time. OCR is slow (a few pages per minute) but does sometimes come in handy for searchability. I'd like a version with an 11"-wide paper path: not only could I scan some more stuff, I could feed more originals through sideways for a shorter scan. Numbering the pages in the PDF effectively makes two sets of page numbers: physical page numbers (1, 2, 3, ..., n) and logical page numbers (the page numbers you put down in the PDF). This works OK when the PDF is viewed with Acrobat Reader or Preview: you see the page numbers you put down. It's not so useful when the PDF is viewed on an iOS or Android device; those readers show the physical page numbers. -Frank McConnell From oltmansg at bellsouth.net Wed Oct 13 13:37:01 2010 From: oltmansg at bellsouth.net (geoffrey oltmans) Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2010 11:37:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Xerox Alto on ebay (not mine!) In-Reply-To: References: <1694795275.397504.1286942562971.JavaMail.root@sz0058a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>, <4CB5B954.4030906@atarimuseum.com>, <4CB57913.21405.27BD95@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <99653.10112.qm@web83902.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Couldn't agree more. I used to have a pretty extensive collection of stuff, but I've pretty much limited myself down to about 3 different machines apart from our current machines. ________________________________ From: Zane H. Healy To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Sent: Wed, October 13, 2010 1:00:26 PM Subject: RE: Xerox Alto on ebay (not mine!) On Wed, 13 Oct 2010, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 13 Oct 2010 at 8:56, Ian King wrote: > >> I think you speak for every ClassicCmp subscriber - except for the >> ones who already have an Alto. :-) -- Ian > > Not really--my first question would be "What would I do with it?" At > my age, such answers don't come easily. I couldn't agree more with your first question. Honestly the only answer I can come up with is to donate it. My money is better spent elsewhere, like on a 19th century Petzval lens (still looking for a suitable one) for my Photography. The only classic computer stuff I've collected in the past several years was a couple carloads that were mostly Commodore stuff. It helped out my Aunt to dispose of stuff from someone she knew that died, and it gave me spares as well as several items I've wanted since they were new. I'm looking to dispose of stuff, not get more. Sadly I've found an interesting roadblock to disposing of stuff, and that is finding free time to dig stuff out and get rid of it. Like my money, my time is better spent elsewhere, and it is spent on my family and my photography. People change over time, and with those changes what is important changes. Zane From charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net Wed Oct 13 14:15:07 2010 From: charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net (Charles) Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2010 14:15:07 -0500 Subject: FS: Apple IIe manuals Message-ID: Continuing to clear the bookshelves :) I have a set of original Apple IIe manuals for sale. Apple IIe Owner's Manual, IIe Reference Manual, 80-Column Text Card, Reference Manual Addendum (Monitor Listings), Extended 80-Column Text Card Supplement, DOS Programmer's Manual, ProDOS User's Manual, ProDOS Supplement to the IIe Owner's Manual, AppleWriter II, & Super Serial Card User's Manual. http://s1181.photobucket.com/albums/x426/DrCharlesMorris/?action=view¤t=PA130023.jpg $20.00 plus 8 lb (Media Mail) postage from zip 65775. Also an original Apple II Reference Manual: http://s1181.photobucket.com/albums/x426/DrCharlesMorris/?action=view¤t=PA130024.jpg $5.00 plus 1 lb postage. please contact me off-list if interested. I've got the //e also with Duo-Disk floppy drive, but it won't be worth the postage! thanks Charles From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Oct 13 13:22:45 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2010 19:22:45 +0100 (BST) Subject: Microwriter MW4 help In-Reply-To: from "John S" at Oct 12, 10 10:03:40 pm Message-ID: > On the 2564 the chip is selected when CS1 and CS2 are both low=2C I thought= And PD has to be low too. Thatgives you effectively 3 enalbes, and they're all used for different signals in the MW4 :-(. A13, A15 and A14 ORed with Rd/ So the top 3 address lines and the Rd/ signal all have to be low to enable the ROM. > perhaps a pair of diodes could be used to feed an OR of these signals to t= > he OE (active low) on an 2764? If not then a 74LSxxx would have to pressed = > into use. I think 4000 series CMOS would be better in the MW4. It's what's used anyway for address decoding, etc. I don't think there are any spare gates in the MW4, so you would have to add another chip ;-(. It might be easier to convince one of my programmers ot burn a 2564. If the original chip is OK part from bit-rot, it should be possible to program it again. -tony From charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net Wed Oct 13 15:05:47 2010 From: charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net (Charles Morris) Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2010 15:05:47 -0500 Subject: Apple IIe manuals have been claimed Message-ID: <074cb6hqaivqd5ju0kb8ml3i9qjm9drrv9@4ax.com> Thanks for all the responses! The IIe manuals have sold. From jonnosan at gmail.com Wed Oct 13 06:50:55 2010 From: jonnosan at gmail.com (Jonno Downes) Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2010 22:50:55 +1100 Subject: identifying terminal by escape codes? Message-ID: I am trying to disassemble some ROM dumps from the SacState 8008 machine (per http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/2010-September/291012.html ) I can see a lot of escape codes being sent, but they don't make sense (to me at least) as Tektronix 4023 escape codes, which is the terminal type reported as being used with that machine. For example, the first thing output after a restart is: HEX ASCII 1F Unit Separator 0D CR 0A LF 3F ? pressing the keys "!\h" would generate this sequence: 1D Group Separator 37 7 7F DEL 20 SPACE 40 @ 1F Unit Separator 12 DC2 1D Group Separator 37 7 7F DEL 20 SPACE 40 @ 1F Unit Separator 14 DC4 Does anything there look familiar to anyone at all? this would be some kind of terminal from early to mid 70s. Cheers Jonno From bqt at softjar.se Wed Oct 13 09:50:16 2010 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2010 16:50:16 +0200 Subject: IP Fragments - Worth doing, testing strategies? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CB5C728.7040700@softjar.se> On 09/30/10 06:42, "Michael B. Brutman" wrote: > I have been working on my TCP/IP stack for DOS, adding IP fragmentation > support. There are not too many more features that I want to add to > make it 'complete' before I open source the code and IP fragment support > was a big one. > > I am having a terrible time testing it though. It seems that IP > fragments out in the wild are pretty rare. I tried connecting to a slew > of remote FTP sites hoping to find one that was behind a really bad > network, and thus would have fragments coming from it. No joy. > > It seems that there are a lot of tricks out there to prevent fragments > from being created, especially when using TCP. The only way I can test > the code is to send myself oversized UDP packets. If it works for UDP > then it should work for TCP too, but I'd really like to test the TCP > path explicitly. Combine the tricks with modern broadband and getting > fragments is really difficult. > > Why? Are you handling UDP and TCP differently at the IP level??? I've written my own TCP/IP (for a PDP-11), and the fragment reassembly code I mostly tested using ICMP, since that was so easy. The IP code is totally protocol-agnostic, so if it works for one protocol, it will work for any. If you haven't done your code this way, then maybe you should rethink that part. TCP is, as you noted, explicitly trying to avoid fragmentation. So it's not an easy protocol to use to test this. > Even on the home network I am having a hard time getting fragments. I > put a Linux box between the DOS PC and a Windows machine, and set one of > the Ethernet MTUs to 576. Well, that didn't force fragments because the > Windows box is too clever. I could start turning everything off in the > registry, but I really don't want to get that involved. > > Off the top of my head I think I am going to have to get another Linux > box and dumb that down, if it is possible. Dumbing Linux down to turn > off the features and then restoring it to a good state is probably > safer/easier than doing it with Windows. > I doubt that would help you either. If you read through the TCP specs, you'll find how the path MTU, and thus MSS is determined. And I doubt you can turn those knobs off. > Does anybody have a good technique for setting up a simple network that > will result in IP fragments of TCP? > > Nope. And I don't really think that it should be neccesary. > On a related note, is this even worth it? I don't know of anything that > needs to send fragments except for NFS over UDP. There might be other > applications that send big packets over UDP but those would be the only > class of applications that absolutely require fragment support. With > TCP it is nice, but a user should be able to get around any problem by > setting the local MTU to 576. > > Yes, I think it is worth it. Not only can packets be fragmented along the way, but you are not even guaranteed that 576 byte packets will not get fragmented. IP requires that you should always be able to pass through 576 byte packets, but it don't actually say anything about fragmentation in this case. If you dig really deep, you'll find that the guaranteed minimum packet size that IP needs to handle without fragmentation is 65 bytes. All above that could get fragmented, so fragment reassembly is a good thing to have. I think, for instance, SLIP interfaces usually run with an MTU of 296, or something like that. But, with all that said, several IP implementations do take a short cut with regards to fragmentation and either totally skip it, or just implement reassembly, and not fragmentation. You can get away with that most of the time, even though it is breaking the requirements. Johnny From bqt at softjar.se Wed Oct 13 10:17:13 2010 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2010 17:17:13 +0200 Subject: IP Fragments - Worth doing, testing strategies? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CB5CD79.5040906@softjar.se> On 10/01/10 00:22, "Michael B. Brutman" wrote: > Sean Conner wrote: >> > While I'm familiar wih IP, I haven't tried implementing it, but, what if >> > you were to set an MTU size of around 50 bytes? The IP header (sans >> > options) is 20 bytes, and the TCP header is another 20. I would think >> > setting the MTU to just above 40 might cause some fragmentation (I thought >> > of suggesting an MTU of just above 20, but then you're testing for IP >> > fragmentation, and not TCP fragmentation. >> > >> > I tend to do stupid stuff like that, but then again, I*was* hired to >> > write testing code at my current job ... >> > >> > -spc (In thoery, IP should work with an MTU of 30 bytes, right?) > The IP header is 20 bytes without any IP header options, and the TCP > header is another 20 bytes without any TCP header options. The minimum allowed MTU is actually 68. (I wrote 65 erronously in a previous mail.) See RFC 791, page 24. In addition to the 68 bytes for a single fragment, an IP stack must be able to handle 576 byte packets, but there is no requirement that this isn't sent in fragments. The receiver must, however, always be able to handle atleast 576 byte packets. > My implementation has room for 10 fragments per packet (configurable > with a #define), which is great for a 'normal' MTU size. If I tested > with a ridiculously small MTU it would wind up throwing a lot of things > away, but many implementations do the same thing. You should allocate that stuff dynamically. > My fragment problem is mostly on the source side - the source machines > are too clever about trying to probe and eliminate fragments. > > Linux has also been 'interesting' as a gateway. Some kernel versions > allow TCP fragments through even though they have bad checksums. I > throw away any packet with a bad checksum. Mixing NAT (Network Address > Translation) and fragments was problematic in my setup too - I think > that Linux was completely screwing up the payload checksums for TCP. What are you talking about? IP fragments for TCP don't have checksums of the TCP payload. There is only a checksum for the IP header. Only the final destination reassembles the packet, and can do a checksum of the TCP packet. Johnny From snhirsch at gmail.com Wed Oct 13 10:57:06 2010 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2010 11:57:06 -0400 (EDT) Subject: at&t unix pc In-Reply-To: References: <4CB383AD.3000500@e-bbes.com> <4CB38B8B.3090601@brouhaha.com> <4CB39EE9.7090704@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 13 Oct 2010, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 10/12/10, Steven Hirsch wrote: >> On Tue, 12 Oct 2010, Jason T wrote: >> And of course there is the quite-rare 3B1 10BT card. >> >> I was lucky enough to score the 3B1 Ethernet adapter. > > It makes one wonder then how hard it would be to rig up a card with a > Lance chip (7990) and either IDE or SCSI - I know there are "memory > expansion" slots, but don't know how finicky the machine might be > about borrowing some of that address space for I/O (or if the slots > could decode regions already _in_ I/O space). Abstractly, I know how > to do this on M68M machines, but I lack specific knowledge of the > innards of the 3B1/7300 to predict how this would go. > > Of course, the expected market of such a peripheral would be somewhat > small, and I suppose if it were easy, there would have been something > like it 15 years ago. Still - it's easy to dream one up. Back when > they were new, I would have loved to have had one, but they were > priced far out of my reach (though many of my local friends who worked > at the Columbus Bell Labs/Western Electric plant bought them through > employee discounts - we were all part of a county-wide UUCP network in > the days before ISPs and dialup PPP links were common. Later, many of > the 7300s were gradually replaced by 386s running Interactive UNIX, > which I _could_ afford). > >> And, yes, the Woolongong TCP stack sucks majorly! > > Was there ever an attempt made at a replacement, or was the nature of > the machine (i.e., closed-source controlled by AT&T) such that > user-initiated projects were doomed to fail? At a hardware level, there is sufficient information available to produce some sort of "combo" card. However, to the best of my knowledge the kernel sources never leaked out. Without that, I think the chances of producing a robust TCP stack are about zeo. Steve -- From cclist at sydex.com Wed Oct 13 15:35:26 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2010 13:35:26 -0700 Subject: identifying terminal by escape codes? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CB5B59E.10134.1143B55@cclist.sydex.com> On 13 Oct 2010 at 22:50, Jonno Downes wrote: > Does anything there look familiar to anyone at all? this would be some > kind of terminal from early to mid 70s. Bears a strong kinship IIRC, to the Beehive Super Bee. --Chuck From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Oct 13 15:30:23 2010 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2010 16:30:23 -0400 Subject: IP Fragments - Worth doing, testing strategies? In-Reply-To: <4CB5C728.7040700@softjar.se> References: <4CB5C728.7040700@softjar.se> Message-ID: <4CB616DF.7060108@gmail.com> Johnny Billquist wrote: >> Off the top of my head I think I am going to have to get another Linux >> box and dumb that down, if it is possible. Dumbing Linux down to turn >> off the features and then restoring it to a good state is probably >> safer/easier than doing it with Windows. > I doubt that would help you either. If you read through the TCP specs, > you'll find how the path MTU, and thus MSS is determined. And I doubt > you can turn those knobs off. PMTUD is done through ICMP. If you prevent the ICMP packets involved from going through, you can stop PMTUD from working. Peace... Sridhar From mike at fenz.net Wed Oct 13 18:23:15 2010 From: mike at fenz.net (Mike van Bokhoven) Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2010 12:23:15 +1300 Subject: Phoenix Amiga 1000 - =?UTF-8?Q?interesting/boring/rare/common=2E=2E=2E=3F?= In-Reply-To: <4CB616DF.7060108@gmail.com> References: <4CB5C728.7040700@softjar.se> <4CB616DF.7060108@gmail.com> Message-ID: <41fd11264ece1bf04002b560b692cf96@vodafone.co.nz> Hey everyone, I listed what I thought was a couple of slightly unusual but not very notable Amiga machines on a local New Zealand auction site; since then, I've been getting people telling me that the Phoenix machine is actually quite interesting. Any Amiga expert type people out there know anything significant about these? The concept of an Australian-made Amiga motherboard is curious I suppose... http://www.trademe.co.nz/Browse/Listing.aspx?id=323578939 Probably not terrible self-promotion I hope, as I don't think anyone on this list is likely to be bidding on TradeMe! I'm just curious about the machine, mainly. I'm not really an Amiga guy, just have a passing familiarity with them. Mike From fjgjr1 at aol.com Wed Oct 13 20:11:42 2010 From: fjgjr1 at aol.com (fjgjr1 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2010 21:11:42 -0400 Subject: See model airplane sites - Re: Cyanoacrylate and baking soda (was Re: Multimeter recomendations) In-Reply-To: <201010131356.o9DDu10t080923@billY.EZWIND.NET> References: <4C98BCEB.2040608@neurotica.com><20100921111045.Y46522@shell.lmi.net><201009212009.o8LK9qqL010433@billY.EZWIND.NET><20100921140107.L52364@shell.lmi.net><201009212127.o8LLRkZ7013917@billY.EZWIND.NET><20100921205122.M52364@shell.lmi.net> <201010131356.o9DDu10t080923@billY.EZWIND.NET> Message-ID: <8CD3953E543C0DB-1980-6364@webmail-m092.sysops.aol.com> Check model airplane sites on Google - I recall this is an " old technique " they used a lot.- check also the particular glues they recommend - there were a lot of them 10 - 20 years ago - many new ones now I believe - need to be careful obviously - do not want to glue body parts together !!! I use to do model airplanes until I got into vintage computers ! Frank -----Original Message----- From: John Foust To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Sent: Wed, Oct 13, 2010 9:55 am Subject: Cyanoacrylate and baking soda (was Re: Multimeter recomendations) At 10:54 PM 9/21/2010, Fred Cisin wrote: > >up with joining plastic parts with cyano-acrylate (super-glue) and then > >running a soldering iron along the joint. On Tue, 21 Sep 2010, John Foust wrote: > What does that do? Heat helps it? Welding the joint at the surface. Even that shallow weld substantially reduces the stress on the joint. Obviously only suitable for SOME types of plastics. While googling for rubber restorer alternatives to improve the pickup ollers on old Laserjets (in particular the use of Marvel Mystery Oil) stumbled on discussions of mixing baking soda with super-glues. It acts as a hardening accelerant (leading to exothermy) and as a filler f small gaps. It sounds like it hardens almost instantly, ready for anding and paint. - John From brianlanning at gmail.com Wed Oct 13 20:31:15 2010 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2010 20:31:15 -0500 Subject: Phoenix Amiga 1000 - interesting/boring/rare/common...? In-Reply-To: <41fd11264ece1bf04002b560b692cf96@vodafone.co.nz> References: <4CB5C728.7040700@softjar.se> <4CB616DF.7060108@gmail.com> <41fd11264ece1bf04002b560b692cf96@vodafone.co.nz> Message-ID: On Wed, Oct 13, 2010 at 6:23 PM, Mike van Bokhoven wrote: I'm just curious about the > machine, mainly. I'm not really an Amiga guy, just have a passing > familiarity with them. http://www.amiga-hardware.com/showhardware.cgi?HARDID=46 Definitly worth picking up if you can as they really are rare and not ebay-rare. I'd love to have one. As far as functionality is concerned, there's nothing there that you wouldn't get with a garden variety amiga 2000 with some upgraded custom chips. But getting that board in an a1000 form factor has some serious cool-factor. I think you can still find right-angle zorro adapters that might allow you to fit a memory board, a buddha, or deneb board in there. 68k socket processor upgrades would probably work also. brian From brianlanning at gmail.com Wed Oct 13 20:36:50 2010 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2010 20:36:50 -0500 Subject: Phoenix Amiga 1000 - interesting/boring/rare/common...? In-Reply-To: References: <4CB5C728.7040700@softjar.se> <4CB616DF.7060108@gmail.com> <41fd11264ece1bf04002b560b692cf96@vodafone.co.nz> Message-ID: On Wed, Oct 13, 2010 at 8:31 PM, Brian Lanning wrote: >68k socket > processor upgrades would probably work also. Scratch that. The 68k chip location is terrible. Although I think someone made 68010 upgrades with faster clock rates that weren't much bigger than the original 68k. And maybe am a1000 processor upgrade side-car with a 68030 could be found... but hen's teeth. If you get this, you need to track down one of these also: http://www.amiga-hardware.com/showhardware.cgi?HARDID=327 You can put an 8-bit hardcard and video card in there along with the floppy drive. brian From oltmansg at bellsouth.net Wed Oct 13 20:39:36 2010 From: oltmansg at bellsouth.net (Geoff Oltmans) Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2010 20:39:36 -0500 Subject: Phoenix Amiga 1000 - interesting/boring/rare/common...? In-Reply-To: References: <4CB5C728.7040700@softjar.se> <4CB616DF.7060108@gmail.com> <41fd11264ece1bf04002b560b692cf96@vodafone.co.nz> Message-ID: <9A08ABEE-9306-4295-87CF-A95E7BD5D6D2@bellsouth.net> IIRC, probably the biggest improvement of the Phoenix was the capability to use a square Agnus chip and ECS chips, so you could get more chip ram and support PAL/NTSC simultaneously. They are quite rare stateside. Don't know how many were produced. On Oct 13, 2010, at 8:31 PM, Brian Lanning wrote: > On Wed, Oct 13, 2010 at 6:23 PM, Mike van Bokhoven wrote: > I'm just curious about the >> machine, mainly. I'm not really an Amiga guy, just have a passing >> familiarity with them. > > http://www.amiga-hardware.com/showhardware.cgi?HARDID=46 > > Definitly worth picking up if you can as they really are rare and not > ebay-rare. I'd love to have one. As far as functionality is > concerned, there's nothing there that you wouldn't get with a garden > variety amiga 2000 with some upgraded custom chips. But getting that > board in an a1000 form factor has some serious cool-factor. I think > you can still find right-angle zorro adapters that might allow you to > fit a memory board, a buddha, or deneb board in there. 68k socket > processor upgrades would probably work also. > > brian From brianlanning at gmail.com Wed Oct 13 20:50:09 2010 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2010 20:50:09 -0500 Subject: Phoenix Amiga 1000 - interesting/boring/rare/common...? In-Reply-To: <9A08ABEE-9306-4295-87CF-A95E7BD5D6D2@bellsouth.net> References: <4CB5C728.7040700@softjar.se> <4CB616DF.7060108@gmail.com> <41fd11264ece1bf04002b560b692cf96@vodafone.co.nz> <9A08ABEE-9306-4295-87CF-A95E7BD5D6D2@bellsouth.net> Message-ID: On Wed, Oct 13, 2010 at 8:39 PM, Geoff Oltmans wrote: > IIRC, probably the biggest improvement of the Phoenix was the capability to use a square Agnus chip and ECS chips, so you could get more chip ram and support PAL/NTSC simultaneously. The amiga-hardware page says it could be configurable as 1meg chip and 1meg fast or 2meg chip. You definitely want the 2meg chip configuration > They are quite rare stateside. Don't know how many were produced. It says 500 to 1000 in australia. Probably next to none here. brian From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Wed Oct 13 20:59:22 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2010 02:59:22 +0100 Subject: See model airplane sites - Re: Cyanoacrylate and baking soda (was Re: Multimeter recomendations) In-Reply-To: <8CD3953E543C0DB-1980-6364@webmail-m092.sysops.aol.com> References: <4C98BCEB.2040608@neurotica.com><20100921111045.Y46522@shell.lmi.net><201009212009.o8LK9qqL010433@billY.EZWIND.NET><20100921140107.L52364@shell.lmi.net><201009212127.o8LLRkZ7013917@billY.EZWIND.NET><20100921205122.M52364@shell.lmi.net> <201010131356.o9DDu10t080923@billY.EZWIND.NET> <8CD3953E543C0DB-1980-6364@webmail-m092.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <4CB663FA.1030302@philpem.me.uk> On 14/10/10 02:11, fjgjr1 at aol.com wrote: > > Check model airplane sites on Google - I recall this is an " old > technique " they used a lot.- check also the particular glues they > recommend - there were a lot of them 10 - 20 years ago - many new > ones now I believe - need to be careful obviously - do not want to > glue body parts together !!! Oh, cyanoacrylates are fun! Especially... * Sticking things together with them, then realising you need to do make a few 'final adjustments' with a power tool. Hit it with the Dremel... and you get a cloud of dust and fume which makes chopping onions seem like a fun occupation! * Gluing your fingers to whatever you're working on, the desk, the drill, etc. Thank $DEITY for acetone, Pacer Z7 Debonder and Swarfega! * The inevitable splattering. Thin CA mixes are evil. Thicker mixes (like ZAP Thick-CA) not so much. * Exothermic reactions when you glue your fingers together, then immediately hit them with debonder. That's right kids, the debonder acts as a partially-effective accelerant... Truth be told, I prefer epoxies, they're much easier to handle, if a lot slower to set. I keep a good stock of Araldite Rapid resin and Milliput epoxy putty on hand... But yeah, the bicarb-and-superglue trick works great. Just make sure you use a thin CA mix, the thicker ones don't work as well, and Superglue Gel doesn't work at all if memory serves. -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From cclist at sydex.com Wed Oct 13 21:23:42 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2010 19:23:42 -0700 Subject: See model airplane sites - Re: Cyanoacrylate and baking soda (was Re: Multimeter recomendations) In-Reply-To: <4CB663FA.1030302@philpem.me.uk> References: , <8CD3953E543C0DB-1980-6364@webmail-m092.sysops.aol.com>, <4CB663FA.1030302@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4CB6073E.2704.2531399@cclist.sydex.com> On 14 Oct 2010 at 2:59, Philip Pemberton wrote: > But yeah, the bicarb-and-superglue trick works great. Just make sure > you use a thin CA mix, the thicker ones don't work as well, and > Superglue Gel doesn't work at all if memory serves. ABS, PVC and polycarbonate are much easier to stick together with methylene chloride--and if done right, the joint is invisible, even with clear stock. --Chuck From evan at snarc.net Thu Oct 14 00:16:18 2010 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2010 01:16:18 -0400 Subject: I-mode phone Message-ID: <4CB69222.6060304@snarc.net> A curator at the Computer History Museum needs to borrow (or obtain) a first-gen I-mode cell phone. This is for a long-term exhibit on the history of portable computing. I'm involved in the project, so I offered to ask around, including here on cctalk. However they need is * quickly *. If anybody has one they're willing to part with, please email me off-list ASAP. From jonnosan at gmail.com Thu Oct 14 00:15:08 2010 From: jonnosan at gmail.com (Jonno Downes) Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2010 16:15:08 +1100 Subject: identifying terminal by escape codes? Message-ID: >Bears a strong kinship IIRC, to the Beehive Super Bee. > >--Chuck I cant find a full spec for that terminal, just termcap entries, and a field service manual for a "mini bee" that I think is related, but neither seem to fit beyond potential use of "unit seperator (0x1F) as a "new line" marker (although even that seems a bit iffy, since the 1F is followed by 0D 0A, i.e. CR/LF) I realised I didn't post any actual 'escape' sequences, just uses of control codes I haven't seen much use of before (US,GS, DC2, DC4). The escape sequences I see are: HEX ASCII 1) 1F 26 24 : ESC & $ 2) 1F 26 27 : ESC & ' 3) 1F 26 21 : ESC & ! where 1,2,3 are all output at different times, with being values I haven't yet determined (they are register values i.e. set at runtime, whereas the first 3 bytes are hardcoded) From cclist at sydex.com Thu Oct 14 00:38:16 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2010 22:38:16 -0700 Subject: identifying terminal by escape codes? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CB634D8.2080.305375C@cclist.sydex.com> On 14 Oct 2010 at 16:15, Jonno Downes wrote: > > The escape sequences I see are: > HEX ASCII > 1) 1F 26 24 : ESC & $ > 2) 1F 26 27 : ESC & ' > 3) 1F 26 21 : ESC & ! > > where 1,2,3 are all output at different times, with being > values I haven't yet determined (they are register values i.e. set at > runtime, whereas the first 3 bytes are hardcoded) Th 1F for a newline (it was that on the SuperBee which used an 8008; the MiniBee is more of a "dumb" terminal) is what I mostly remember. So the 1F above is used as the escape character and not hex 1B? --Chuck From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Thu Oct 14 07:50:16 2010 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2010 07:50:16 -0500 Subject: See model airplane sites - Re: Cyanoacrylate and baking soda (was Re: Multimeter recomendations) In-Reply-To: <4CB663FA.1030302@philpem.me.uk> References: <4C98BCEB.2040608@neurotica.com><20100921111045.Y46522@shell.lmi.net><201009212009.o8LK9qqL010433@billY.EZWIND.NET><20100921140107.L52364@shell.lmi.net><201009212127.o8LLRkZ7013917@billY.EZWIND.NET><20100921205122.M52364@shell.lmi.net> <201010131356.o9DDu10t080923@billY.EZWIND.NET> <8CD3953E543C0DB-1980-6364@webmail-m092.sysops.aol.com> <4CB663FA.1030302@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4CB6FC88.7060003@gmail.com> Philip Pemberton wrote: > Truth be told, I prefer epoxies, they're much easier to handle, if a lot > slower to set. I keep a good stock of Araldite Rapid resin and Milliput > epoxy putty on hand... Did they change the formula for Araldite at some point? I remember it being great stuff when I was a kid, but then when I used it in more recent years it just didn't seem as good. Various other substances seem to have suffered over the years due to replacing of harmful chemicals in them with less-harmful counterparts which don't work as well, but I'm not sure if that's why Araldite didn't seem as good. I've not found a really good off-the-shelf epoxy here in the US yet - various ones that are OK, but not as robust* as I'd like. * Although I did patch a damaged cylinder bore with some a few weeks ago as a test - so far so good. It should take the maximum temperature, but whether the heating/cooling cycles or oil contact eventually kills it remains to be seen. If it dies, it's out with the chemical metal :-) cheers Jules From doc at vaxen.net Thu Oct 14 07:53:39 2010 From: doc at vaxen.net (Doc) Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2010 07:53:39 -0500 Subject: See model airplane sites - Re: Cyanoacrylate and baking soda (was Re: Multimeter recomendations) In-Reply-To: <4CB6FC88.7060003@gmail.com> References: <4C98BCEB.2040608@neurotica.com><20100921111045.Y46522@shell.lmi.net><201009212009.o8LK9qqL010433@billY.EZWIND.NET><20100921140107.L52364@shell.lmi.net><201009212127.o8LLRkZ7013917@billY.EZWIND.NET><20100921205122.M52364@shell.lmi.net> <201010131356.o9DDu10t080923@billY.EZWIND.NET> <8CD3953E543C0DB-1980-6364@webmail-m092.sysops.aol.com> <4CB663FA.1030302@philpem.me.uk> <4CB6FC88.7060003@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4CB6FD53.6090505@vaxen.net> Jules Richardson wrote: > Philip Pemberton wrote: >> Truth be told, I prefer epoxies, they're much easier to handle, if a >> lot slower to set. I keep a good stock of Araldite Rapid resin and >> Milliput epoxy putty on hand... > > Did they change the formula for Araldite at some point? I remember it > being great stuff when I was a kid, but then when I used it in more > recent years it just didn't seem as good. Various other substances seem > to have suffered over the years due to replacing of harmful chemicals in > them with less-harmful counterparts which don't work as well, but I'm > not sure if that's why Araldite didn't seem as good. > > I've not found a really good off-the-shelf epoxy here in the US yet - > various ones that are OK, but not as robust* as I'd like. Brownell's AcraGlas. It's sold as a bedding epoxy for rifles, but it's classic slow setting 2-part resin epoxy. Shelf life is rated at 10 years and holding life rated at 50. Doc From shumaker at att.net Thu Oct 14 09:03:20 2010 From: shumaker at att.net (steve shumaker) Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2010 07:03:20 -0700 Subject: new vintage web site Message-ID: <4CB70DA8.6010902@att.net> FYI 10 SEPT 2010: MARYLAND INSTITUTE FOR TECHNOLOGY IN THE HUMANITIES (MITH) LAUNCHES VINTAGE COMPUTING SITE: MITH is very pleased to announce a new Web site devoted to its sizable (and growing) collection of vintage computers, retro software, and other artifacts from the early era of personal computing. The centerpiece of the site is a a considered metadata and modeling approach to computing hardware, whereby individual components of the vintage machines are documented, contextualized within their relation to the system as a whole, and expressed using Dublin Core. The site gathers links to other recent MITH projects in born-digital cultural heritage, and serves as a clearing house for our expanding portfolio in this area. It also includes newly written non-specialist's documentation for the FC5025 Floppy Disk Controller, a device used to retrieve data off of obsolescent media formats. The site is presented using the content management tool Omeka. It was researched and designed by Walker Sampson, who recently completed an MLS from the School of Information at the University of Texas; Sampson was in residence at MITH this past summer under the auspices of the IMLS-sponsored Digital Humanities Model Internship Program. MITH's Associate Director Matthew Kirschenbaum comments, "This site demonstrates the role that vintage computing can have in the environment of an active digital humanities center; as born-digital cultural heritage becomes ever more important, centers such as MITH will play a part alongside of libraries and archives in addressing its long-term presentation and curation." SOURCE:http://mith.umd.edu/mith-launches-vintage-computing-site/ From jam at magic.com Thu Oct 14 09:34:06 2010 From: jam at magic.com (James A. Markevitch) Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2010 07:34:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: identifying terminal by escape codes? Message-ID: <201010141434.HAA24300@magellan.magic.com> > >Bears a strong kinship IIRC, to the Beehive Super Bee. > > > >--Chuck > > I cant find a full spec for that terminal, just termcap entries, and a > field service manual for a "mini bee" that I think is related, but > neither seem to fit beyond potential use of "unit seperator (0x1F) as > a "new line" marker (although even that seems a bit iffy, since the > 1F is followed by 0D 0A, i.e. CR/LF) > > I realised I didn't post any actual 'escape' sequences, just uses of > control codes I haven't seen much use of before (US,GS, DC2, DC4). The "device control" codes appear to have their familiar uses: DC1 = ctrl-Q = reader on DC2 = ctrl-R = punch on DC3 = ctrl-S = reader off DC4 = ctrl-T = punch off However, it isn't yet clear whether the device being used is truly a reader/punch, or that these codes are used for some analogous purpose to turn on/off read/write of another device. > The escape sequences I see are: > HEX ASCII > 1) 1F 26 24 : ESC & $ > 2) 1F 26 27 : ESC & ' > 3) 1F 26 21 : ESC & ! > > where 1,2,3 are all output at different times, with being > values I haven't yet determined (they are register values i.e. set at > runtime, whereas the first 3 bytes are hardcoded) The first value is hex 1B, of course (not 1F). The x,y,z values apparently represent a record number (128-byte records). x is an ASCII digit (30 - 39 hex) y is an ASCII digit (30 - 39 hex) z has the range 40 - 5F hex (at sign through underscore) James Markevitch From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Oct 14 10:04:00 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2010 11:04:00 -0400 Subject: Phoenix Amiga 1000 - interesting/boring/rare/common...? In-Reply-To: <9A08ABEE-9306-4295-87CF-A95E7BD5D6D2@bellsouth.net> References: <4CB5C728.7040700@softjar.se> <4CB616DF.7060108@gmail.com> <41fd11264ece1bf04002b560b692cf96@vodafone.co.nz> <9A08ABEE-9306-4295-87CF-A95E7BD5D6D2@bellsouth.net> Message-ID: On 10/13/10, Geoff Oltmans wrote: > IIRC, probably the biggest improvement of the Phoenix was the capability to > use a square Agnus chip and ECS chips, so you could get more chip ram and > support PAL/NTSC simultaneously. > > They are quite rare stateside. Don't know how many were produced. Over here, we had The Rejuvinator - http://amiga.resource.cx/exp/rejuvenator I brought a couple of Amiga 1000s to VCFmw - one with a Spirit Inboard (memory and RTC), the other with a Rejuvinator and a Microbotics Starboard (memory) and Stardrive (SCSI and RTC). Unfortunately, it's been a while since I powered up an A1000 and the best I got was a Guru screen on one of them (no Kickstart prompt on the one, no Workbench on the other). In terms of features, an A1000 motherboard+Rejuvnator was like a Phoenix (ECS chipset, more CHIP RAM, Kickstart in ROM...) but it was a bit ugly to install vs a total mobo replacement. I've never seen a Phoenix over here, but since the Rejuvinator designer lived in Dayton (90 minutes away from me) I did see plenty of Rejuvinators in Ohio. -ethan From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Oct 14 10:13:28 2010 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kosssow) Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2010 08:13:28 -0700 Subject: Xerox Alto on ebay (not mine!) In-Reply-To: <1694795275.397504.1286942562971.JavaMail.root@sz0058a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> References: <1694795275.397504.1286942562971.JavaMail.root@sz0058a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <4CB71E18.1060402@bitsavers.org> On 10/12/10 9:02 PM, nick.allen at comcast.net wrote: > > Looks identical to mine (File Server, Xlto II XM), and having the same boot issues I am having (CRT warming up, but no image). Had a quick look at the pictures. It is NOT a file server. The power cable he took a picture of is for a second Diablo 31 drive. SN 4472 sounds familiar, it may have come from me at some point. Interesting that he has two units. The Ball Brothers sticker sounds like this was a monitor test unit that Xerox sent there. From cclist at sydex.com Thu Oct 14 10:22:04 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2010 08:22:04 -0700 Subject: identifying terminal by escape codes? In-Reply-To: <201010141434.HAA24300@magellan.magic.com> References: <201010141434.HAA24300@magellan.magic.com> Message-ID: <4CB6BDAC.14098.28F8C5@cclist.sydex.com> On 14 Oct 2010 at 7:34, James A. Markevitch wrote: > The x,y,z values apparently represent a record number (128-byte > records). x is an ASCII digit (30 - 39 hex) y is an ASCII digit (30 - > 39 hex) z has the range 40 - 5F hex (at sign through underscore) I owned a Techtran dual-casette data drive around that time that was a type of replacement for a paper tape unit. ISTR that it could transfer at the truly stunning speed of 2400 bps. It could do record search, skipping, copying, etc. all under software control (special "escape" codes). Sadly I no longer have the documentation for it. Maybe Al has some information on these old units. --Chuck From christian_liendo at yahoo.com Thu Oct 14 10:31:22 2010 From: christian_liendo at yahoo.com (Christian Liendo) Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2010 08:31:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Xerox Alto on ebay (not mine!) In-Reply-To: <4CB71E18.1060402@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <525696.37275.qm@web113505.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> While I would like one of these, I couldn't own it. First of all I see this unit going for serious $$$. This computer is rare, very few of these running around and it's historical significance makes it highly sought after. Also this unit is big.. So if you already have your storage spaces filled, you WILL have to let go of some items to fit this in.. I would have to get go of either my fridge or couch. I see two types of people getting this 1. Serious collectors with big pockets 2. Museums I am watching it just to see how much it goes for and who gets it. I would like to see something like this in a museum where they could light it up and we can see the original GUI. From jonnosan at gmail.com Thu Oct 14 03:21:49 2010 From: jonnosan at gmail.com (Jonno Downes) Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2010 19:21:49 +1100 Subject: identifying terminal by escape codes? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I just took a look at the 4010 manual, and realised that US (0x1F) selects 'alpha mode' and GS (0x1D) selects graphics mode. The very first char output by the prom is US, followed by CR/LF then '?' - it would make sense that the monitor sets alpha mode first. this sequence also looks like it is using graph mode to position the cursor, then flicks and to alpha mode to print a char, back to graphics to move cursor back to where it was, and (over)prints a different char. I haven't yet worked out whether 0x12 and 0x14 in alpha mode displays a custom graphic, but might be some kind of flashing cursor 1D Group Separator 37 7 7F DEL 20 SPACE 40 @ 1F Unit Separator 12 DC2 1D Group Separator 37 7 7F DEL 20 SPACE 40 @ 1F Unit Separator 14 DC4 not sure what these are though: 1F 26 24 : ESC & $ 1F 26 27 : ESC & ' 1F 26 21 : ESC & ! From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Oct 14 12:12:54 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2010 10:12:54 -0700 Subject: at&t unix pc In-Reply-To: References: <4CB383AD.3000500@e-bbes.com> <4CB38B8B.3090601@brouhaha.com> <4CB39EE9.7090704@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4CB73A16.1070009@brouhaha.com> Ethan wrote about the AT&T Unix PC (7300 or 3B1): > It makes one wonder then how hard it would be to rig up a card with a > Lance chip (7990) and either IDE or SCSI - I know there are "memory > expansion" slots, but don't know how finicky the machine might be > about borrowing some of that address space for I/O (or if the slots > could decode regions already _in_ I/O space). There is plenty of I/O address space available. Years ago I wire-wrapped a card with a 5380 SCSI chip. I never got to the stage of having a reliable driver. A wire-wrap board won't fit into the computer itself; it took up three slots of an expansion box. One impediment to making cards for the Unix PC is that the 99-pin three-row DIN-style connector is no longer made. If I remember correctly, one actually needs some of the contacts at both ends, but perhaps one could butcher two 96-pin DIN 41612/IEC 60603-2 connectors into a single 99. I haven't studied the mechanical drawings of the connectors to figure out how much the connectors would need to be hacked. Eric From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Oct 14 12:18:39 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2010 10:18:39 -0700 Subject: at&t unix pc In-Reply-To: References: <4CB383AD.3000500@e-bbes.com> <4CB38B8B.3090601@brouhaha.com> <4CB39EE9.7090704@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4CB73B6F.9060407@brouhaha.com> Steven Hirsch wrote about the AT&T Unix PC (7300 or 3B1): > > At a hardware level, there is sufficient information available to > produce some sort of "combo" card. However, to the best of my > knowledge the kernel sources never leaked out. Without that, I think > the chances of producing a robust TCP stack are about zeo. However, the ".o" files for the kernel were available, which makes it somewhat more practical to hack than a linked kernel. At one time I was met someone who had the kernel sources, but was of course unable to give them to me. Eric From shumaker at att.net Thu Oct 14 12:40:02 2010 From: shumaker at att.net (steve shumaker) Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2010 10:40:02 -0700 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_Legendary_steampunk_computer_=27s?= =?windows-1252?Q?hould_be_built=27_-_programmer_=95_The_Re?= =?windows-1252?Q?gister?= In-Reply-To: <4CAB6FDA.80305@bitsavers.org> References: <4CAB614D.2060506@sbcglobal.net> <4CAB6FDA.80305@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4CB74072.8030708@att.net> more on the project: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-11530905 steve On 10/5/2010 11:35 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > On 10/5/10 10:33 AM, Dave Woyciesjes wrote: >> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/10/05/analytical_engine_build_call/ > > yeah.. and I want a pony > > > > I would be REALLY nice to Doron Swade, if I were him. > > > > From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Oct 14 12:43:49 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2010 13:43:49 -0400 Subject: at&t unix pc In-Reply-To: <4CB73A16.1070009@brouhaha.com> References: <4CB383AD.3000500@e-bbes.com> <4CB38B8B.3090601@brouhaha.com> <4CB39EE9.7090704@neurotica.com> <4CB73A16.1070009@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On 10/14/10, Eric Smith wrote: > Ethan wrote about the AT&T Unix PC (7300 or 3B1): >> It makes one wonder then how hard it would be to rig up a card with a >> Lance chip (7990) and either IDE or SCSI... > There is plenty of I/O address space available. Unsurprising (given 16MB of range), but good to have confirmed. > Years ago I wire-wrapped a card with a 5380 SCSI chip. That would be when I would start - and maybe consider a WD33C93 (as found in the Amiga 3000) if the performance of the 5380 turned out to be an issue. > I never got to the stage of having a reliable driver. Ah. Out of curiosity, did you happen to write it from scratch or did you have existing UNIX 5380 drivers to "borrow" from? > A wire-wrap board won't fit into the computer itself; it took up three slots of an expansion box. That can be addressed with a real PCB prototype, but I probably wouldn't personally invest in a run of boards until driver issues were addressed. > One impediment to making cards for the Unix PC is that the 99-pin > three-row DIN-style connector is no longer made. If I remember > correctly, one actually needs some of the contacts at both ends, but > perhaps one could butcher two 96-pin DIN 41612/IEC 60603-2 connectors > into a single 99. I haven't studied the mechanical drawings of the > connectors to figure out how much the connectors would need to be hacked. That is unfortunate - enough to make the whole process difficult. Perhaps a CPU-socket design is worth considering. 64 pin DIP sockets are still available. ;-) -ethan From jbmcb1 at gmail.com Thu Oct 14 12:51:31 2010 From: jbmcb1 at gmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2010 13:51:31 -0400 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_Legendary_steampunk_computer_=27should_be_built=27_=2D?= =?windows-1252?Q?_programmer_=95_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: <4CB74072.8030708@att.net> References: <4CAB614D.2060506@sbcglobal.net> <4CAB6FDA.80305@bitsavers.org> <4CB74072.8030708@att.net> Message-ID: I heard the guy running that project on TWiT. Apparently Babbage was building the original machine to automate figuring out logarithm tables for engineering books at the time. It was all done by hand back then, and I guess there were a lot of errors. That's what the difference engine was for. Then he thought about adding feedback to the difference engine, and the first modern computer design was born (the analytical engine, which is what this project wants to build.) Interesting stuff, Babbage was *way* ahead of his time. From evan at snarc.net Thu Oct 14 13:00:35 2010 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2010 14:00:35 -0400 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_Legendary_steampunk_computer_=27s?= =?windows-1252?Q?hould_be_built=27_-_programmer_=95_The_Re?= =?windows-1252?Q?gister?= In-Reply-To: References: <4CAB614D.2060506@sbcglobal.net> <4CAB6FDA.80305@bitsavers.org> <4CB74072.8030708@att.net> Message-ID: <4CB74543.7090907@snarc.net> > Apparently Babbage was building the original machine to automate figuring out logarithm tables for > engineering books at the time. It was all done by hand back then, and I guess there were a lot of errors. That's what the difference engine was for. Then he thought about adding feedback to the difference engine, and the first modern computer design was born (the analytical engine, which is what this project wants to build.) Interesting stuff, Babbage was *way* ahead of his time. Indeed. I recommend reading Swade's book, "The Cogwheel Brain" .... it's very good. From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Oct 14 13:04:37 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2010 14:04:37 -0400 Subject: at&t unix pc In-Reply-To: References: <4CB383AD.3000500@e-bbes.com> <4CB38B8B.3090601@brouhaha.com> <4CB39EE9.7090704@neurotica.com> <4CB73A16.1070009@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4CB74635.4090004@neurotica.com> On 10/14/10 1:43 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 10/14/10, Eric Smith wrote: >> Ethan wrote about the AT&T Unix PC (7300 or 3B1): >>> It makes one wonder then how hard it would be to rig up a card with a >>> Lance chip (7990) and either IDE or SCSI... > >> There is plenty of I/O address space available. > > Unsurprising (given 16MB of range), but good to have confirmed. > >> Years ago I wire-wrapped a card with a 5380 SCSI chip. > > That would be when I would start - and maybe consider a WD33C93 (as > found in the Amiga 3000) if the performance of the 5380 turned out to > be an issue. Compared to the WD1010-based MFM controller it'd be replacing? ;) >> One impediment to making cards for the Unix PC is that the 99-pin >> three-row DIN-style connector is no longer made. If I remember >> correctly, one actually needs some of the contacts at both ends, but >> perhaps one could butcher two 96-pin DIN 41612/IEC 60603-2 connectors >> into a single 99. I haven't studied the mechanical drawings of the >> connectors to figure out how much the connectors would need to be hacked. > > That is unfortunate - enough to make the whole process difficult. > Perhaps a CPU-socket design is worth considering. 64 pin DIP sockets > are still available. ;-) The main board of a 7300/3B1 is on the bottom of the machine, and my very vague memory from 20+ years ago says it might actually be component-side down. If this is actually the case, it'd likely be too tight in there for such a daughterboard. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Oct 14 13:18:19 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2010 14:18:19 -0400 Subject: at&t unix pc In-Reply-To: <4CB74635.4090004@neurotica.com> References: <4CB383AD.3000500@e-bbes.com> <4CB38B8B.3090601@brouhaha.com> <4CB39EE9.7090704@neurotica.com> <4CB73A16.1070009@brouhaha.com> <4CB74635.4090004@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On 10/14/10, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 10/14/10 1:43 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> On 10/14/10, Eric Smith wrote: >>> Years ago I wire-wrapped a card with a 5380 SCSI chip. >> >> That would be when I would start - and maybe consider a WD33C93 (as >> found in the Amiga 3000) if the performance of the 5380 turned out to >> be an issue. > > Compared to the WD1010-based MFM controller it'd be replacing? ;) Yeah... well... even so, the 5380, while trivial to hang off of a CPU, is not known for performance. Without a DMA engine, it might not be worth involving the 33C93 (for which there are probably fewer driver examples to borrow from). >> Perhaps a CPU-socket design is worth considering. 64 pin DIP sockets >> are still available. ;-) > > The main board of a 7300/3B1 is on the bottom of the machine, and my > very vague memory from 20+ years ago says it might actually be > component-side down. If this is actually the case, it'd likely be too > tight in there for such a daughterboard. Ah... hadn't considered that arrangement. If that's true (I can't check myself), then that method is untenable (well... one could blow a hole in the case bottom and put the machine up on pegs...) I was more expecting that the CPU was under the PSU or the drive bay or otherwise cramped from the top. OK... next idea... a MC68010L-sized PCB with room for a MC68010FN (http://www.cpu-world.com/CPUs/68010/Motorola-MC68010FN10.html) and an SMT 5380. Sort of a "no slot clock" kinda of arrangement (same footprint, but perhaps only slightly thicker). The next most difficult thing to do would be to figure out how to get the SCSI signals off the board. Probably have to be a multi-layer board to get all the signals to all the right pins. The bonus would be that it would likely work in many, many MC68K machines (depending on the orientation of the off-board SCSI pins). -ethan From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Oct 14 13:49:16 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2010 14:49:16 -0400 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_Legendary_steampunk_computer_=27should_be_built=27_=2D?= =?windows-1252?Q?_programmer_=95_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: References: <4CAB614D.2060506@sbcglobal.net> <4CAB6FDA.80305@bitsavers.org> <4CB74072.8030708@att.net> Message-ID: > Interesting stuff, Babbage was *way* ahead of his time. Too far ahead of his time for England, and too stubborn as well. Apparently he was not entirely a nice guy to work for. -- Will From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Oct 14 15:51:44 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2010 13:51:44 -0700 Subject: at&t unix pc In-Reply-To: References: <4CB383AD.3000500@e-bbes.com> <4CB38B8B.3090601@brouhaha.com> <4CB39EE9.7090704@neurotica.com> <4CB73A16.1070009@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4CB76D60.3010204@brouhaha.com> Ethan wrote: >> I never got to the stage of having a reliable driver. >> > Ah. Out of curiosity, did you happen to write it from scratch or did > you have existing UNIX 5380 drivers to "borrow" from? > I was working from scratch, and was finding debugging to be exceedingly difficult. These days it would be somewhat easier as I have a good logic analyzer I could hook up to the MC68010. (An in-circuit emulator would be even better.) > Perhaps a CPU-socket design is worth considering. 64 pin DIP sockets > are still available. ;-) > > Yes, and there is enough clearance (barely) to fit such a thing in, though the MC68010 might have to be soldered in place as their might not be enough clearance for socketed components on the daughterboard. Eric From mike at fenz.net Thu Oct 14 15:52:21 2010 From: mike at fenz.net (Mike van Bokhoven) Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2010 09:52:21 +1300 Subject: Phoenix Amiga 1000 - =?UTF-8?Q?interesting/boring/rare/common=2E=2E?= =?UTF-8?Q?=2E=3F?= In-Reply-To: References: <4CB5C728.7040700@softjar.se> <4CB616DF.7060108@gmail.com> <41fd11264ece1bf04002b560b692cf96@vodafone.co.nz> <9A08ABEE-9306-4295-87CF-A95E7BD5D6D2@bellsouth.net> Message-ID: <5e2a1ce543f9bcc345a56210fd1167a2@vodafone.co.nz> Well, it's good to know that the machine is something moderately interesting, anyway. Seemed it from the quick research I did. Hopefully it goes to someone who'll find it useful; with this talk about the thing, I have to resist thoughts along the lines of 'I should have kept it and done xyz with it.' I did have both an A500 and A2000 back when they were current, but for some reason the platform hasn't held so much interest for me down the years. I think that it may have been just too capable; the limitations of earlier (and sometimes later) systems seem to make them more interesting somehow. Strange. Mike On Thu, 14 Oct 2010 11:04:00 -0400, Ethan Dicks wrote: > Over here, we had The Rejuvinator - > http://amiga.resource.cx/exp/rejuvenator > > I brought a couple of Amiga 1000s to VCFmw - one with a Spirit Inboard > (memory and RTC), the other with a Rejuvinator and a Microbotics > Starboard (memory) and Stardrive (SCSI and RTC). Unfortunately, it's > been a while since I powered up an A1000 and the best I got was a Guru > screen on one of them (no Kickstart prompt on the one, no Workbench on > the other). > > In terms of features, an A1000 motherboard+Rejuvnator was like a > Phoenix (ECS chipset, more CHIP RAM, Kickstart in ROM...) but it was a > bit ugly to install vs a total mobo replacement. I've never seen a > Phoenix over here, but since the Rejuvinator designer lived in Dayton > (90 minutes away from me) I did see plenty of Rejuvinators in Ohio. > > -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Oct 14 16:23:46 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2010 17:23:46 -0400 Subject: at&t unix pc In-Reply-To: <4CB76D60.3010204@brouhaha.com> References: <4CB383AD.3000500@e-bbes.com> <4CB38B8B.3090601@brouhaha.com> <4CB39EE9.7090704@neurotica.com> <4CB73A16.1070009@brouhaha.com> <4CB76D60.3010204@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On 10/14/10, Eric Smith wrote: > Ethan wrote: >>> I never got to the stage of having a reliable driver. >>> >> Ah. Out of curiosity, did you happen to write it from scratch or did >> you have existing UNIX 5380 drivers to "borrow" from? >> > > I was working from scratch, and was finding debugging to be exceedingly > difficult. Indeed. I've done communication device driver work in the past - and seen many kernel panics - it was fun back then - your terminal session rhythm would go "off" as your process was no longer being serviced, then there'd be the tell-tale chatter of the console printer reporting the unhappiness followed by a 20 minute dump and reboot cycle. Some things are better left in the past. > These days it would be somewhat easier as I have a good > logic analyzer I could hook up to the MC68010. (An in-circuit emulator > would be even better.) Something like that, I do happen to have (a Northwest Instruments "Satellite" bus analyzer that can capture and store the last 4096 bus cycles... it was $20K when it was new, but I got to keep it when the company doors closed. I've found it quite handy for debugging hardware and hardware/firmware issues. I haven't fired it up in a few years - this thread reminds me I should check it - the sampler box is no doubt fine, I'm sure, but the "head" is an IBM 5150 PC with an ST225 - I'm anticipating stiction issues.). -ethan From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Oct 14 16:38:48 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2010 17:38:48 -0400 Subject: at&t unix pc In-Reply-To: References: <4CB383AD.3000500@e-bbes.com> <4CB38B8B.3090601@brouhaha.com> <4CB39EE9.7090704@neurotica.com> <4CB73A16.1070009@brouhaha.com> <4CB74635.4090004@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4CB77868.1060902@neurotica.com> On 10/14/10 2:18 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >>>> Years ago I wire-wrapped a card with a 5380 SCSI chip. >>> >>> That would be when I would start - and maybe consider a WD33C93 (as >>> found in the Amiga 3000) if the performance of the 5380 turned out to >>> be an issue. >> >> Compared to the WD1010-based MFM controller it'd be replacing? ;) > > Yeah... well... even so, the 5380, while trivial to hang off of a CPU, > is not known for performance. Without a DMA engine, it might not be > worth involving the 33C93 (for which there are probably fewer driver > examples to borrow from). Yes, the "generic 5380" driver from Linux would likely be a good starting point. It's a completely different driver structure of course, but all the stuff about frobbing the chip would be very useful. > OK... next idea... a MC68010L-sized PCB with room for a MC68010FN > (http://www.cpu-world.com/CPUs/68010/Motorola-MC68010FN10.html) and an > SMT 5380. Sort of a "no slot clock" kinda of arrangement (same > footprint, but perhaps only slightly thicker). The next most > difficult thing to do would be to figure out how to get the SCSI > signals off the board. Probably have to be a multi-layer board to get > all the signals to all the right pins. The bonus would be that it > would likely work in many, many MC68K machines (depending on the > orientation of the off-board SCSI pins). I like that idea! -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Thu Oct 14 16:44:39 2010 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2010 16:44:39 -0500 Subject: Xerox Alto on ebay (not mine!) In-Reply-To: <1D7E779D9BAD4DF081730566A31C3E75@dell8300> References: <1694795275.397504.1286942562971.JavaMail.root@sz0058a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>, <4CB5B954.4030906@atarimuseum.com>, <4CB57913.21405.27BD95@cclist.sydex.com> <1D7E779D9BAD4DF081730566A31C3E75@dell8300> Message-ID: <4CB779C7.3010407@gmail.com> Teo Zenios wrote: > There are many old machines that are worth preserving but are better off > in a museum then in somebody's cluttered basement left to rot. There are cases where that's true - but I know how museums can't possibly display everything that they have, can't afford to completely restore everything, can't afford to keep everything in perfect storage conditions etc., so sometimes I think that things are far better off in private hands, if they can go to someone who will look after a system, or fix it, or make sure it eventually passes on to a good home. (I often think that the downside of ebay is that an item goes to the person with the deepest pockets, and they're not necessarily the best person to treat an item nicely) cheers Jules From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Thu Oct 14 16:49:56 2010 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2010 16:49:56 -0500 Subject: Xerox Alto on ebay (not mine!) In-Reply-To: <525696.37275.qm@web113505.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <525696.37275.qm@web113505.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4CB77B04.2000704@gmail.com> Christian Liendo wrote: > Also this unit is big.. So if you already have your storage spaces filled, > you WILL have to let go of some items to fit this in.. > > I would have to get go of either my fridge or couch. I don't think it'd work as a fridge, but it looks like it would be possible to put a cushion on top and sit on it. Lose the couch. ;-) > 1. Serious collectors with big pockets 2. Museums I've never found that many museums with deep pockets, unfortunately. From IanK at vulcan.com Thu Oct 14 17:28:18 2010 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2010 15:28:18 -0700 Subject: Xerox Alto on ebay (not mine!) In-Reply-To: <4CB779C7.3010407@gmail.com> References: <1694795275.397504.1286942562971.JavaMail.root@sz0058a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>, <4CB5B954.4030906@atarimuseum.com>, <4CB57913.21405.27BD95@cclist.sydex.com> <1D7E779D9BAD4DF081730566A31C3E75@dell8300> <4CB779C7.3010407@gmail.com> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jules Richardson > Sent: Thursday, October 14, 2010 2:45 PM > To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Xerox Alto on ebay (not mine!) > > Teo Zenios wrote: > > There are many old machines that are worth preserving but are better > off > > in a museum then in somebody's cluttered basement left to rot. > > There are cases where that's true - but I know how museums can't > possibly > display everything that they have, can't afford to completely restore > everything, can't afford to keep everything in perfect storage > conditions > etc., so sometimes I think that things are far better off in private > hands, if > they can go to someone who will look after a system, or fix it, or make > sure > it eventually passes on to a good home. I was at the Rodin museum in Paris and hoped to see a piece that a friend had photographed. They informed me that the collection is about five times what will fit on display at any one time, and the piece I wanted to see was in storage. :-( I was particularly interested in this bronze because it looks uncannily like me (which is why my friend took the photo), and I wanted to get a photo of the two of us side by side. Ah well, I guess I'll have to go back to Paris sometime.... -- Ian From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Oct 14 18:00:58 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2010 16:00:58 -0700 Subject: at&t unix pc In-Reply-To: <4CB77868.1060902@neurotica.com> References: <4CB383AD.3000500@e-bbes.com> <4CB38B8B.3090601@brouhaha.com> <4CB39EE9.7090704@neurotica.com> <4CB73A16.1070009@brouhaha.com> <4CB74635.4090004@neurotica.com> <4CB77868.1060902@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4CB78BAA.4000809@brouhaha.com> Dave McGuire wrote: > Yes, the "generic 5380" driver from Linux would likely be a good > starting point. It's a completely different driver structure of > course, but all the stuff about frobbing the chip would be very useful. Be careful, though. The Linux driver is GPL'd, and thus license-incompatible with the SYSV kernel. I imagine that the xBSD folks probably have some sort of 5380 driver, and it might be better to use that as the starting point. Eric From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Oct 14 18:05:32 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2010 19:05:32 -0400 Subject: at&t unix pc In-Reply-To: <4CB78BAA.4000809@brouhaha.com> References: <4CB383AD.3000500@e-bbes.com> <4CB38B8B.3090601@brouhaha.com> <4CB39EE9.7090704@neurotica.com> <4CB73A16.1070009@brouhaha.com> <4CB74635.4090004@neurotica.com> <4CB77868.1060902@neurotica.com> <4CB78BAA.4000809@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4CB78CBC.5010000@neurotica.com> On 10/14/10 7:00 PM, Eric Smith wrote: >> Yes, the "generic 5380" driver from Linux would likely be a good >> starting point. It's a completely different driver structure of >> course, but all the stuff about frobbing the chip would be very useful. > > Be careful, though. The Linux driver is GPL'd, and thus > license-incompatible with the SYSV kernel. I imagine that the xBSD folks > probably have some sort of 5380 driver, and it might be better to use > that as the starting point. Ah. Eh. I am most decidedly in the mood to completely ignore any legalese shovelings lately. But your point is well-taken. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cclist at sydex.com Thu Oct 14 18:09:58 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2010 16:09:58 -0700 Subject: Xerox Alto on ebay (not mine!) In-Reply-To: References: <1694795275.397504.1286942562971.JavaMail.root@sz0058a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>, <4CB779C7.3010407@gmail.com>, Message-ID: <4CB72B56.6266.1D660A0@cclist.sydex.com> On 14 Oct 2010 at 15:28, Ian King wrote: > I was at the Rodin museum in Paris and hoped to see a piece that a > friend had photographed. They informed me that the collection is > about five times what will fit on display at any one time, and the > piece I wanted to see was in storage. :-( I was particularly > interested in this bronze because it looks uncannily like me (which is > why my friend took the photo), and I wanted to get a photo of the two > of us side by side. Ah well, I guess I'll have to go back to Paris > sometime.... Or you could check behind your sofa: http://ind.pn/9WWils --Chuck From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Fri Oct 15 00:54:03 2010 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2010 22:54:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Seeking Commodore SX keyboard and cable Message-ID: I acquired a Commodore SX a few years ago, but it lacks a keyboard cable and one of the keyboard latches is broken. Does anyone here have a spare keyboard and cable for the Commodore SX? -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From jonnosan at gmail.com Thu Oct 14 13:49:48 2010 From: jonnosan at gmail.com (Jonno Downes) Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2010 05:49:48 +1100 Subject: identifying terminal by escape codes? Message-ID: >The "device control" codes appear to have their familiar uses: > >DC1 = ctrl-Q = reader on >DC2 = ctrl-R = punch on >DC3 = ctrl-S = reader off >DC4 = ctrl-T = punch off >However, it isn't yet clear whether the device being used is truly a >reader/punch, or that these codes are used for some analogous purpose >to turn on/off read/write of another device. That would (to me at least) seem inconsistent with my theory that this is a dialect of Tektronix 4010 control codes - I can't work out any sensible interpretation of the sequence 1) 1D Group Separator 2) 37 7 3) 7F DEL 4) 20 SPACE 5) 40 @ 6) 1F Unit Separator 7) 12 DC2 8) 1D Group Separator 9) 37 7 10) 7F DEL 11) 20 SPACE 12) 40 @ 13) 1F Unit Separator 14) 14 DC4 that would allow for lines 1-6 and 8-13 to be both graphics control codes (positioning the cursor) and lines 7 & 14 to be turning a device on & off. of course, I may be tracing the execution flow wrong, and there could be errors in the dump... >> The escape sequences I see are: >> HEX ASCII >> 1) 1F 26 24 : ESC & $ >> 2) 1F 26 27 : ESC & ' >> 3) 1F 26 21 : ESC & ! >> >> where 1,2,3 are all output at different times, with being >> values I haven't yet determined (they are register values i.e. set at >> runtime, whereas the first 3 bytes are hardcoded) >The first value is hex 1B, of course (not 1F). yes - my bad! >The x,y,z values apparently represent a record number (128-byte records). >x is an ASCII digit (30 - 39 hex) >y is an ASCII digit (30 - 39 hex) >z has the range 40 - 5F hex (at sign through underscore) From snhirsch at gmail.com Thu Oct 14 16:59:37 2010 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2010 17:59:37 -0400 (EDT) Subject: at&t unix pc In-Reply-To: References: <4CB383AD.3000500@e-bbes.com> <4CB38B8B.3090601@brouhaha.com> <4CB39EE9.7090704@neurotica.com> <4CB73A16.1070009@brouhaha.com> <4CB76D60.3010204@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 14 Oct 2010, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> These days it would be somewhat easier as I have a good >> logic analyzer I could hook up to the MC68010. (An in-circuit emulator >> would be even better.) > > Something like that, I do happen to have (a Northwest Instruments > "Satellite" bus analyzer that can capture and store the last 4096 bus > cycles... it was $20K when it was new, but I got to keep it when the > company doors closed. I've found it quite handy for debugging > hardware and hardware/firmware issues. I haven't fired it up in a few > years - this thread reminds me I should check it - the sampler box is > no doubt fine, I'm sure, but the "head" is an IBM 5150 PC with an > ST225 - I'm anticipating stiction issues.). Have you looked at the Intronix Logicport analyzer? A 500 Mhz. 34-channel USB connected unit for $389. I'm sorely tempted to pick one up. http://www.pctestinstruments.com Steve -- From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Fri Oct 15 03:22:10 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2010 05:22:10 -0300 Subject: Seeking Commodore SX keyboard and cable References: Message-ID: <2bc201cb6c42$186ed870$fbdc00bd@portajara> > I acquired a Commodore SX a few years ago, but it lacks a keyboard cable > and one of the keyboard latches is broken. Does anyone here have a spare > keyboard and cable for the Commodore SX? You can use any serial cable (DB25M to DB25F) to connect the keyboard. The original one is a pair of IDC DB25 connectors and a metre of flat cable. You can make one at home, using a bench press to press the IDC connectors into the cable I had one, and had to make the cable :) From oltmansg at bellsouth.net Fri Oct 15 08:00:10 2010 From: oltmansg at bellsouth.net (Geoff Oltmans) Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2010 08:00:10 -0500 Subject: Seeking Commodore SX keyboard and cable In-Reply-To: <2bc201cb6c42$186ed870$fbdc00bd@portajara> References: <2bc201cb6c42$186ed870$fbdc00bd@portajara> Message-ID: I don't remember mine being a flat cable. It was round with plastic moulded connectors. On Oct 15, 2010, at 3:22 AM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >> I acquired a Commodore SX a few years ago, but it lacks a keyboard cable and one of the keyboard latches is broken. Does anyone here have a spare keyboard and cable for the Commodore SX? > > You can use any serial cable (DB25M to DB25F) to connect the keyboard. The original one is a pair of IDC DB25 connectors and a metre of flat cable. You can make one at home, using a bench press to press the IDC connectors into the cable > > I had one, and had to make the cable :) From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Oct 15 08:12:10 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2010 06:12:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Seeking Commodore SX keyboard and cable In-Reply-To: from Geoff Oltmans at "Oct 15, 10 08:00:10 am" Message-ID: <201010151312.o9FDCAMo012266@floodgap.com> > I don't remember mine being a flat cable. It was round with plastic moulded > connectors. Yes, the original connector is indeed like that. One of my SXs didn't have the keyboard cable, however, so I got a ribbon DB-25 straight thru and made one. I did have to file down the edges to get it to fix in the computer, though. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- mouse, n: A device for pointing at the xterm in which you want to type. ---- From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Fri Oct 15 08:29:18 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2010 10:29:18 -0300 Subject: Seeking Commodore SX keyboard and cable References: <2bc201cb6c42$186ed870$fbdc00bd@portajara> Message-ID: <008d01cb6c75$d4a8d940$da3d58bb@portajara> >I don't remember mine being a flat cable. It was round with plastic moulded >connectors. http://www.tabalabs.com.br/c64/sx From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Oct 15 15:30:11 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2010 16:30:11 -0400 Subject: Seeking Commodore SX keyboard and cable In-Reply-To: <2bc201cb6c42$186ed870$fbdc00bd@portajara> References: <2bc201cb6c42$186ed870$fbdc00bd@portajara> Message-ID: On 10/15/10, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >> I acquired a Commodore SX a few years ago, but it lacks a keyboard cable >> and one of the keyboard latches is broken. Does anyone here have a spare >> keyboard and cable for the Commodore SX? > > You can use any serial cable (DB25M to DB25F) to connect the keyboard. If it fits, yes (the cavity in the SX can be a bit tight). The wiring is not elaborate. > The original one is a pair of IDC DB25 connectors and a metre of flat cable. No it isn't. I have an original - the hood on the SX-end is a bit odd to fit into the connector cavity and leave you room to press the cable into the machine, it doesn't have the "ears" of a regular serial cable (it's all friction-fit, no screws on either end) and the cable is round. > You can make one at home, using a bench press to press the IDC connectors > into the cable Yes. You can make a replacement with IDC connectors, just like the link you posted later, but it's not an original cable. Here is a link to a photo of the original cable... http://www.geekvintage.com/commodore-sx-64-keyboard-cable.php ... but it will be easier to make one with a flat cable. I just wish I had a way to repair damaged SX keyboard internals... I have a keyboard that was "fixed" by the previous owner. Several of the keys are dead now. -ethan From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Oct 15 15:02:00 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2010 21:02:00 +0100 (BST) Subject: Xerox Alto on ebay (not mine!) In-Reply-To: <4CB779C7.3010407@gmail.com> from "Jules Richardson" at Oct 14, 10 04:44:39 pm Message-ID: > > Teo Zenios wrote: > > There are many old machines that are worth preserving but are better off > > in a museum then in somebody's cluttered basement left to rot. > > There are cases where that's true - but I know how museums can't possibly I feel even more strongly about this, having dealt with some particularly clueless people at musuems and related organisations [1]. To the extent that no part of my collection is ever going near a museum. [1] My 'favourite' story is the chap from the British Library who didn't realise that thermal printouts fade quite quickly, and thus any such printouts of historical significance need to be photocopied or scanned ASAP. My experience suggests that few museums would dismantle a rare machine to produce documetnation and then fix it, whereas quite a few enthusiasts would. Giving a very rarew machine to such an enthusiast is more likely to produce inforamtion of benefit to the rest of the classic computing community than would be produced if it was given to a museum. > > (I often think that the downside of ebay is that an item goes to the person > with the deepest pockets, and they're not necessarily the best person to treat > an item nicely) Particularly as hackers (in the origianl sense) are not often well-paid, if they can find a job at all. -tony From curt at atarimuseum.com Fri Oct 15 16:23:01 2010 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2010 17:23:01 -0400 Subject: Xerox Alto on ebay (not mine!) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CB8C635.3050605@atarimuseum.com> I agree, I loaned my Yellow Computer Space to Barbican in the UK for their GameOn exhibit, it came back with its original TV set ruined and they CUT the HV line and other wires inside!!!!!!!!!!! I will never loan anything I have to another "Museum" ever again, I would only trust other enthusiasts, those in the trenches so to speak who have a respect and understanding for the items they are entrusted with. Tony Duell wrote: >> Teo Zenios wrote: >> >>> There are many old machines that are worth preserving but are better off >>> in a museum then in somebody's cluttered basement left to rot. >>> >> There are cases where that's true - but I know how museums can't possibly >> > > I feel even more strongly about this, having dealt with some particularly > clueless people at musuems and related organisations [1]. To the extent > that no part of my collection is ever going near a museum. > > [1] My 'favourite' story is the chap from the British Library who didn't > realise that thermal printouts fade quite quickly, and thus any such > printouts of historical significance need to be photocopied or scanned > ASAP. > > My experience suggests that few museums would dismantle a rare machine to > produce documetnation and then fix it, whereas quite a few enthusiasts > would. Giving a very rarew machine to such an enthusiast is more likely > to produce inforamtion of benefit to the rest of the classic computing > community than would be produced if it was given to a museum. > > >> (I often think that the downside of ebay is that an item goes to the person >> with the deepest pockets, and they're not necessarily the best person to treat >> an item nicely) >> > > Particularly as hackers (in the origianl sense) are not often well-paid, > if they can find a job at all. > > -tony > > From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Oct 15 16:52:10 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2010 17:52:10 -0400 Subject: Xerox Alto on ebay (not mine!) In-Reply-To: <4CB8C635.3050605@atarimuseum.com> References: <4CB8C635.3050605@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: > I will never loan anything I have to another "Museum" ever again, I would > only trust other enthusiasts, those in the trenches so to speak who have a > respect and understanding for the items they are entrusted with. This is the problem - not very many computer "museums" are real museums, or even act like real museums. -- Will From teoz at neo.rr.com Fri Oct 15 17:13:27 2010 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2010 18:13:27 -0400 Subject: Xerox Alto on ebay (not mine!) References: Message-ID: <83E38F171E7640539ED2B6AAC6BFB406@dell8300> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Friday, October 15, 2010 4:02 PM Subject: Re: Xerox Alto on ebay (not mine!) > My experience suggests that few museums would dismantle a rare machine to > produce documetnation and then fix it, whereas quite a few enthusiasts > would. Giving a very rarew machine to such an enthusiast is more likely > to produce inforamtion of benefit to the rest of the classic computing > community than would be produced if it was given to a museum. > -tony I don't understand that logic. What you want is a collector that will tinker with an item and modify it so he can print "hello world" on the screen or printer a few times until he gets bored with it, blows it up and cannot fix it, or dies and it gets trashed. A museum will collect all the information about that rare device and keep it intact until some later generation has the need or desire to see what made it tick. The key difference is each time that rarity passes hands to another collector things get lost and you have the possibility of it getting destroyed, a decent museum will keep it from rotting so that generations from now somebody can go back and learn from it (using high tech science to see its layers without trashing it). Computers are not that old, let a few sit broken for a thousand years until a society has the desire to see how they did it back in the stone ages. Hopefully by that time they can just replicate the broken parts like in star trek and leave the rusting hulk as is for the next 1000 years. From teoz at neo.rr.com Fri Oct 15 17:19:13 2010 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2010 18:19:13 -0400 Subject: Xerox Alto on ebay (not mine!) References: <4CB8C635.3050605@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "William Donzelli" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Friday, October 15, 2010 5:52 PM Subject: Re: Xerox Alto on ebay (not mine!) >> I will never loan anything I have to another "Museum" ever again, I would >> only trust other enthusiasts, those in the trenches so to speak who have >> a >> respect and understanding for the items they are entrusted with. > > This is the problem - not very many computer "museums" are real > museums, or even act like real museums. > > -- > Will They do serve the function of keeping very large items nobody can store at home from getting recycled, which is good enough for now. From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Oct 15 17:57:26 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2010 18:57:26 -0400 Subject: Xerox Alto on ebay (not mine!) In-Reply-To: References: <4CB8C635.3050605@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: > They do serve the function of keeping very large items nobody can store at > home from getting recycled, which is good enough for now. Yes, and many are decent organizations. "For now" is a good way to put it. I would rather not start another MUSEUMS SUCK! thread. We have said everything many times before. Some people just can not change their views. -- Will From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Oct 15 19:52:33 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2010 17:52:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Xerox Alto on ebay (not mine!) In-Reply-To: <83E38F171E7640539ED2B6AAC6BFB406@dell8300> References: <83E38F171E7640539ED2B6AAC6BFB406@dell8300> Message-ID: <20101015175155.Q64411@shell.lmi.net> > Computers are not that old, let a few sit broken for a thousand years until > a society has the desire to see how they did it back in the stone ages. > Hopefully by that time they can just replicate the broken parts like in star > trek and leave the rusting hulk as is for the next 1000 years. How is it coming with replicas of the Antikytheran device? From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Oct 15 19:58:48 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2010 17:58:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Not all museums suck. (Was: Xerox Alto on ebay (not mine!) In-Reply-To: References: <4CB8C635.3050605@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <20101015175638.M64411@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 15 Oct 2010, William Donzelli wrote: > I would rather not start another MUSEUMS SUCK! thread. We have said > everything many times before. Some people just can not change their > views. A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject. - Winston Churchill or is that "Subject:" ? -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Fri Oct 15 20:04:58 2010 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2010 18:04:58 -0700 Subject: Babbage Analytical Engine - CBC interview Message-ID: For those that can listen to CBC Radio 1 / As-It-Happens show / tonight 6:30-8:00, there is to be an interview with the guy that wants to build the Analytical Engine. From snhirsch at gmail.com Fri Oct 15 17:08:14 2010 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2010 18:08:14 -0400 (EDT) Subject: 3B1 tech ref scans Message-ID: I have finished scanning both binders. Please contact me private e-mail if you are interested in them. Steve -- From jws at jwsss.com Fri Oct 15 17:41:22 2010 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2010 15:41:22 -0700 Subject: Xerox Alto on ebay (not mine!) In-Reply-To: <83E38F171E7640539ED2B6AAC6BFB406@dell8300> References: <83E38F171E7640539ED2B6AAC6BFB406@dell8300> Message-ID: <4CB8D892.3050608@jwsss.com> On 10/15/2010 3:13 PM, Teo Zenios wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" > To: > Sent: Friday, October 15, 2010 4:02 PM > Subject: Re: Xerox Alto on ebay (not mine!) > > >> My experience suggests that few museums would dismantle a rare >> machine to >> produce documetnation and then fix it, whereas quite a few enthusiasts >> would. Giving a very rarew machine to such an enthusiast is more likely >> to produce inforamtion of benefit to the rest of the classic computing >> community than would be produced if it was given to a museum. >> -tony > > I don't understand that logic. What you want is a collector that will > tinker with an item and modify it so he can print "hello world" on the > screen or printer a few times until he gets bored with it, blows it up > and cannot fix it, or dies and it gets trashed. A museum will collect > all the information about that rare device and keep it intact until > some later generation has the need or desire to see what made it tick. > The key difference is each time that rarity passes hands to another > collector things get lost and you have the possibility of it getting > destroyed, a decent museum will keep it from rotting so that > generations from now somebody can go back and learn from it (using > high tech science to see its layers without trashing it). > such museums are rare. for the most parts museums (and libraries) operate as businesses and need customers and income. They will make or rent exhibits that generate traffic. they rarely place a lot of emphasis on the longevity of every little bit that could exist in their sphere of influence. the rare exceptions are such as the CHM and the Smithsonian. The Smithsonian is picky about what it takes, but preserves artifacts quite meticulously. The CHM has a lot of nice stuff, and from what I've seen preserves what it accepts quite well. I mentioned libraries, because they are at the bottom of the food chain in my book. There are countless elaborate collections of books dispursed to the far winds by clueless librarians. The rare exception and model you would think would exist is a person like Al Kossow. He is the rare archivist, who has the mission to save the software and ephemera of computing, and actually knows what he is doing. Most librarians, and such operations as almost any "Discovery Museum" or such has the mission to bring in bodies and collect money. the rare well finance serious collector probably is the best hope for your rarities if you pass them on, as most of the museums frequently already have what they need, and won't take say the complete apple collection from the Newton to the latest Macintosh LC3. > Computers are not that old, let a few sit broken for a thousand years > until a society has the desire to see how they did it back in the > stone ages. Hopefully by that time they can just replicate the broken > parts like in star trek and leave the rusting hulk as is for the next > 1000 years. > From eric at brouhaha.com Sat Oct 16 03:40:50 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2010 01:40:50 -0700 Subject: Babbage Analytical Engine - CBC interview In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CB96512.6050507@brouhaha.com> Brent Hilpert wrote: > For those that can listen to CBC Radio 1 / As-It-Happens show / > tonight 6:30-8:00, there is to be an interview with the guy that wants > to build the Analytical Engine. > Geez, now it's newsworthy to *want* to build things? I want to build a Saturn V. And I want a pony. From andy at flirble.org Sat Oct 16 06:35:47 2010 From: andy at flirble.org (Andrew Back) Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2010 12:35:47 +0100 Subject: Xerox Alto on ebay (not mine!) In-Reply-To: References: <4CB779C7.3010407@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20101016113547.GA8097@plum.flirble.org> On (21:02 15/10/10), Tony Duell wrote: > > > > Teo Zenios wrote: > > > There are many old machines that are worth preserving but are better off > > > in a museum then in somebody's cluttered basement left to rot. > > > > There are cases where that's true - but I know how museums can't possibly > > I feel even more strongly about this, having dealt with some particularly > clueless people at musuems and related organisations [1]. To the extent > that no part of my collection is ever going near a museum. Tony, does a week ever pass where you don't feel the inescapable urge to flame those who work at museums, regardless of their knowledge, ability and track record? You are rude and insulting. Yes, damned rude even. How dare you make such sweeping generalisations? If the subject of your disapproval were a particular race or subscribers of a certain religion this would not be tolerated. Yet somehow it is and you get to flap your jaw, spewing out utter nonsense asserting that everyone who works at a museum is an idiot, and we have to put up with it. And *you know full well* that there are plenty of people who work and volunteer at museums on this list. Oh, I'm not one, in case you wondered. And one can only assume that you intend to be buried with your collection when the day comes, since at this rate when the day approaches there is unlikely to be a living soul that will match up to your exacting standards. > [1] My 'favourite' story is the chap from the British Library who didn't > realise that thermal printouts fade quite quickly, and thus any such > printouts of historical significance need to be photocopied or scanned > ASAP. To the gallows with him! So, how about this. Have you ever considered that if you slightly adjusted your attitude and learnt to work with people rather than lambasting them, you might actually contribute to the preservation of computer history for future generations. But, no, it's much easier to take the moral high ground and boast about how clever you are and how much of an idiot most everyone else is. Andrew -- Andrew Back a at smokebelch.org From roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk Sat Oct 16 06:51:10 2010 From: roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk (Roger Holmes) Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2010 12:51:10 +0100 Subject: Oldest original proper computer (stored program etc) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <882500AE-2115-47BE-82D1-F2D75D52D201@microspot.co.uk> My ICT 1301 restoration is now officially a working group of the Computer Conservation Society. The Science Museum's Ferranti Pegasus and Elliott 401 have been shut down for over 18 months and the Harwell Witch project has not returned the machine to a working state yet. Though I don't believe its true, I was told my machine is currently the oldest original working computer. Not counting replicas or machines which don't have stored programs. My machine was installed in 1962 (and designed in the late 1950s). I'm sure some of you know of earlier machines which can still run programs, even if the peripherals don't all work. I would like to establish if mine is the oldest in the UK, in Europe or whatever and where it stands in the world rankings, like is it in the top ten? It looks like the IBM 1620 in the states is probably older but when was that particular machine (rather than the type) first installed? The 1401 of course is another candidate but I think the particular one being restored was first installed in 1964. Are there other? I'm not counting the Zuse in Germany as its not a stored program machine, and anyway I'm not sure if it is a replica or the original. It is surprising if it survived the extensive bombing by the USAF and RAF during WW2 unless it was stored in a bunker/cave/mine. There is an older machine in Australia which was working but apparently it too is currently has not run for some time. Many museums seem to be either afraid of damaging their machine by powering them up or unwilling to pay the operating expenses (electricity, paper, paper tape, punched cards etc). There are machines like the ICT1200/HEC in museums here in the UK but no plans to restore them, and the very early machines were broken up years ago and the CCS has been building replicas of several, including the Manchester Baby. Can anyone on the list help with details of working machine of the first and second generation? From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sat Oct 16 08:45:28 2010 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2010 14:45:28 +0100 Subject: Confused by Alpha 433au and SCSI Message-ID: <00fe01cb6d38$66146580$323d3080$@ntlworld.com> I have a BA356 shelf with a DS-BA35X-FB personality module. The personality module has two high density connectors on it, I think they are 68-pin. The pins are too small for me to be able to count them reliably, but the cable has a 68-pin SCSI Wide connector on the other end. The second connector on the personality module is not connected to anything, I do not have a terminator for it and I am unsure if I need one. I have connected this to my 433au which has a Qlogic QLA1040 SCSI adapter in it. I have been unable to locate any documentation for either the personality module or the SCSI adapter. I am having problems getting the SRM to recognise the disks in the shelf. Sometimes it will see no devices at all, not even the CD-ROM connected to the internal SCSI cable. Other times it will see a ton of disks as shown in this partial extract from the console: >>>sh dev dka0.0.0.1009.0 DKA0 dka100.1.0.1009.0 DKA100 dka101.1.0.1009.0 DKA101 dka103.1.0.1009.0 DKA103 dka105.1.0.1009.0 DKA105 dka107.1.0.1009.0 DKA107 dka1100.11.0.1009.0 DKA1100 dka1102.11.0.1009.0 DKA1102 Just now I tried with one SBB in slot 0 and I got this: >>>sh dev dka400.4.0.1009.0 DKA400 MATSHITA CD-ROM CR-508 XS03 dva0.0.0.0.1 DVA0 ewa0.0.0.3.0 EWA0 00-00-F8-75-BE-63 pka0.7.0.1009.0 PKA0 SCSI Bus ID 7 5.57 pqa0.0.0.4.0 PQA0 PCI EIDE pqb0.0.1.4.0 PQB0 PCI EIDE When I added a second SBB in slot 1 then I got this: >>>sh dev waiting for pka0.7.0.1009.0 to poll... waiting for pka0.7.0.1009.0 to poll... waiting for pka0.7.0.1009.0 to poll... dva0.0.0.0.1 DVA0 ewa0.0.0.3.0 EWA0 00-00-F8-75-BE-63 pka0.7.0.1009.0 PKA0 SCSI Bus ID 7 5.57 pqa0.0.0.4.0 PQA0 PCI EIDE pqb0.0.1.4.0 PQB0 PCI EIDE >>> I am not quite sure what is going on, what the jumpers on the personality module do, whether I need to insert a terminator on the second personality module connector, or whether there are some jumpers on the QLA1040 adapter that need to be set, or is there something else I need to do. Anyone have any clues? Thanks Rob From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Oct 16 10:32:31 2010 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2010 08:32:31 -0700 Subject: Confused by Alpha 433au and SCSI In-Reply-To: <00fe01cb6d38$66146580$323d3080$@ntlworld.com> References: <00fe01cb6d38$66146580$323d3080$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: Is there a SCSI terminator on the back of the shelf? I can't get to any of my BA356 shelves to look, but I have used BA350's a lot and they have a terminator hidden by one of the fans. BTW, I tried to get a BA356 running on my 433au, and never succeeded, I used BA350's till upgrading to Andataco JBOD boxes. I was never able to determine if the issue was with the 433au or the BA356 (my 433au has some fairly serious issues including a dead PCI slot, but was still stable if configured right). Zane At 2:45 PM +0100 10/16/10, Rob Jarratt wrote: >I have a BA356 shelf with a DS-BA35X-FB personality module. The personality >module has two high density connectors on it, I think they are 68-pin. The >pins are too small for me to be able to count them reliably, but the cable >has a 68-pin SCSI Wide connector on the other end. The second connector on >the personality module is not connected to anything, I do not have a >terminator for it and I am unsure if I need one. I have connected this to my >433au which has a Qlogic QLA1040 SCSI adapter in it. I have been unable to >locate any documentation for either the personality module or the SCSI >adapter. > >I am having problems getting the SRM to recognise the disks in the shelf. >Sometimes it will see no devices at all, not even the CD-ROM connected to >the internal SCSI cable. Other times it will see a ton of disks as shown in >this partial extract from the console: > >>>>sh dev >dka0.0.0.1009.0 DKA0 >dka100.1.0.1009.0 DKA100 >dka101.1.0.1009.0 DKA101 >dka103.1.0.1009.0 DKA103 >dka105.1.0.1009.0 DKA105 >dka107.1.0.1009.0 DKA107 >dka1100.11.0.1009.0 DKA1100 >dka1102.11.0.1009.0 DKA1102 > >Just now I tried with one SBB in slot 0 and I got this: > >>>>sh dev >dka400.4.0.1009.0 DKA400 MATSHITA CD-ROM CR-508 XS03 >dva0.0.0.0.1 DVA0 >ewa0.0.0.3.0 EWA0 00-00-F8-75-BE-63 >pka0.7.0.1009.0 PKA0 SCSI Bus ID 7 5.57 >pqa0.0.0.4.0 PQA0 PCI EIDE >pqb0.0.1.4.0 PQB0 PCI EIDE > >When I added a second SBB in slot 1 then I got this: > >>>>sh dev >waiting for pka0.7.0.1009.0 to poll... >waiting for pka0.7.0.1009.0 to poll... >waiting for pka0.7.0.1009.0 to poll... >dva0.0.0.0.1 DVA0 >ewa0.0.0.3.0 EWA0 00-00-F8-75-BE-63 >pka0.7.0.1009.0 PKA0 SCSI Bus ID 7 5.57 >pqa0.0.0.4.0 PQA0 PCI EIDE >pqb0.0.1.4.0 PQB0 PCI EIDE >>>> > >I am not quite sure what is going on, what the jumpers on the personality >module do, whether I need to insert a terminator on the second personality >module connector, or whether there are some jumpers on the QLA1040 adapter >that need to be set, or is there something else I need to do. > >Anyone have any clues? > >Thanks > >Rob -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Oct 16 10:52:08 2010 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kosssow) Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2010 08:52:08 -0700 Subject: another alto on ebay Message-ID: <4CB9CA28.2080707@bitsavers.org> 110599066440 Pretty lame listing. No useful pictures. He CLAIMS it is an Alto I, but you can't tell anything from the listing picture From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sat Oct 16 11:06:14 2010 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2010 17:06:14 +0100 Subject: Confused by Alpha 433au and SCSI In-Reply-To: References: <00fe01cb6d38$66146580$323d3080$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <010501cb6d4c$106f41e0$314dc5a0$@ntlworld.com> Yes, there is a terminator behind one of the fans. Regards Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Zane H. Healy > Sent: 16 October 2010 16:33 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Confused by Alpha 433au and SCSI > > Is there a SCSI terminator on the back of the shelf? I can't get to any of my > BA356 shelves to look, but I have used BA350's a lot and they have a > terminator hidden by one of the fans. > > BTW, I tried to get a BA356 running on my 433au, and never succeeded, I > used BA350's till upgrading to Andataco JBOD boxes. I was never able to > determine if the issue was with the 433au or the BA356 (my 433au has some > fairly serious issues including a dead PCI slot, but was still stable if configured > right). > > Zane > > > > At 2:45 PM +0100 10/16/10, Rob Jarratt wrote: > >I have a BA356 shelf with a DS-BA35X-FB personality module. The > >personality module has two high density connectors on it, I think they > >are 68-pin. The pins are too small for me to be able to count them > >reliably, but the cable has a 68-pin SCSI Wide connector on the other > >end. The second connector on the personality module is not connected to > >anything, I do not have a terminator for it and I am unsure if I need > >one. I have connected this to my 433au which has a Qlogic QLA1040 SCSI > >adapter in it. I have been unable to locate any documentation for > >either the personality module or the SCSI adapter. > > > >I am having problems getting the SRM to recognise the disks in the shelf. > >Sometimes it will see no devices at all, not even the CD-ROM connected > >to the internal SCSI cable. Other times it will see a ton of disks as > >shown in this partial extract from the console: > > > >>>>sh dev > >dka0.0.0.1009.0 DKA0 > >dka100.1.0.1009.0 DKA100 > >dka101.1.0.1009.0 DKA101 > >dka103.1.0.1009.0 DKA103 > >dka105.1.0.1009.0 DKA105 > >dka107.1.0.1009.0 DKA107 > >dka1100.11.0.1009.0 DKA1100 > >dka1102.11.0.1009.0 DKA1102 > > > >Just now I tried with one SBB in slot 0 and I got this: > > > >>>>sh dev > >dka400.4.0.1009.0 DKA400 MATSHITA CD-ROM CR-508 XS03 > >dva0.0.0.0.1 DVA0 > >ewa0.0.0.3.0 EWA0 00-00-F8-75-BE-63 > >pka0.7.0.1009.0 PKA0 SCSI Bus ID 7 5.57 > >pqa0.0.0.4.0 PQA0 PCI EIDE > >pqb0.0.1.4.0 PQB0 PCI EIDE > > > >When I added a second SBB in slot 1 then I got this: > > > >>>>sh dev > >waiting for pka0.7.0.1009.0 to poll... > >waiting for pka0.7.0.1009.0 to poll... > >waiting for pka0.7.0.1009.0 to poll... > >dva0.0.0.0.1 DVA0 > >ewa0.0.0.3.0 EWA0 00-00-F8-75-BE-63 > >pka0.7.0.1009.0 PKA0 SCSI Bus ID 7 5.57 > >pqa0.0.0.4.0 PQA0 PCI EIDE > >pqb0.0.1.4.0 PQB0 PCI EIDE > >>>> > > > >I am not quite sure what is going on, what the jumpers on the > >personality module do, whether I need to insert a terminator on the > >second personality module connector, or whether there are some jumpers > >on the QLA1040 adapter that need to be set, or is there something else I > need to do. > > > >Anyone have any clues? > > > >Thanks > > > >Rob > > > -- > | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | > | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | > | | Photographer | > +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ > | My flickr Photostream | > | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | From geneb at deltasoft.com Sat Oct 16 11:42:28 2010 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2010 09:42:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ProFiles magazine scans. In-Reply-To: <4CB8D892.3050608@jwsss.com> References: <83E38F171E7640539ED2B6AAC6BFB406@dell8300> <4CB8D892.3050608@jwsss.com> Message-ID: I recently started receiving the contents of a closed CP/M user group. The collection is mostly Kaypro oriented - the first scans I've completed are for ProFiles magazine. I've scanned 19 issues spanning volumes 1 thru 6, with Vol5 being completed. 25 remain in the collection yet to be scanned - I'll get to those in the coming week or two. I've taken this as an opportunity to reorganize the documentation section of the retroarchive.org site a bit - It's now split between hardware & software docs instead of being mixed together. http://www.retroarchive.org tnx. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From dm561 at torfree.net Sat Oct 16 13:06:00 2010 From: dm561 at torfree.net (MikeS) Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2010 14:06:00 -0400 Subject: Tony and museums (was Xerox Alto..) References: Message-ID: Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2010 12:35:47 +0100 From: Andrew Back Subject: Re: Xerox Alto on ebay (not mine!) To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" On (21:02 15/10/10), Tony Duell wrote: > > > > Teo Zenios wrote: > > > There are many old machines that are worth preserving but are better > > > off > > > in a museum then in somebody's cluttered basement left to rot. > > > > There are cases where that's true - but I know how museums can't > > possibly > > I feel even more strongly about this, having dealt with some particularly > clueless people at musuems and related organisations [1]. To the extent > that no part of my collection is ever going near a museum. Tony, does a week ever pass where you don't feel the inescapable urge to flame those who work at museums, regardless of their knowledge, ability and track record? You are rude and insulting. Yes, damned rude even. How dare you make such sweeping generalisations? If the subject of your disapproval were a particular race or subscribers of a certain religion this would not be tolerated. Yet somehow it is and you get to flap your jaw, spewing out utter nonsense asserting that everyone who works at a museum is an idiot, and we have to put up with it. And *you know full well* that there are plenty of people who work and volunteer at museums on this list. Oh, I'm not one, in case you wondered. ... So, how about this. Have you ever considered that if you slightly adjusted your attitude and learnt to work with people rather than lambasting them, you might actually contribute to the preservation of computer history for future generations. But, no, it's much easier to take the moral high ground and boast about how clever you are and how much of an idiot most everyone else is. Andrew --------------- REPLY: Whoa! Talk about "rude and insulting," and making "sweeping generalizations"... He said he's dealt with "some particularly clueless people at museums;" how did you get "everyone who works at a museum is an idiot" out of that? And if he and Curt decide that based on their bad experiences they won't lend their systems again to a museum, I think that's their choice to make. Finally, to suggest that he hasn't in fact "contributed to the preservation of computer history" is preposterous and highly insulting; I don't see many reverse-engineered HP schematics or extremely helpful posts "working with people" on here with your name on them... Not many of his contributions are relevant to my interests but I for one certainly appreciate the time he spends helping the folks on here, in the HP community and elsewhere (even if his rants are a little repetitive at times) ;-) Sheesh! mike From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sat Oct 16 14:13:44 2010 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (BHilpert) Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2010 12:13:44 -0700 Subject: Babbage Analytical Engine - CBC interview In-Reply-To: <4CB96512.6050507@brouhaha.com> References: <4CB96512.6050507@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <97cc2e97c89be9737e197eaffc9d416c@cs.ubc.ca> On 16-Oct-10, at 1:40 AM, Eric Smith wrote: > Brent Hilpert wrote: >> For those that can listen to CBC Radio 1 / As-It-Happens show / >> tonight 6:30-8:00, there is to be an interview with the guy that >> wants to build the Analytical Engine. >> > Geez, now it's newsworthy to *want* to build things? I want to build > a Saturn V. And I want a pony. .. yes .. Going from those online articles we've already seen, I suspect it's all about fundraising. Don't know what happened, but I didn't hear the interview. I heard a quick announcement of it in the 5:30 or 6:00 break in the programming, which prompted my msg to the list, but then .. nothing. Don't know whether I misheard the schedule, they changed the schedule, or if it's still coming up at some time. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Oct 16 13:40:44 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2010 19:40:44 +0100 (BST) Subject: Xerox Alto on ebay (not mine!) In-Reply-To: <4CB8C635.3050605@atarimuseum.com> from "Curt @ Atari Museum" at Oct 15, 10 05:23:01 pm Message-ID: > > I agree, I loaned my Yellow Computer Space to Barbican in the UK for > their GameOn exhibit, it came back with its original TV set ruined and > they CUT the HV line and other wires inside!!!!!!!!!!! Ouch!. As an aside, I've heard that you should never lend anything rare/valuable as a prop for film/television. There have been too many cases where the object has been essentailly ruined, and while they'll pay you the insured value, taht is hardly what you want (as I have said many times 'Ypu can't hack banknotes'). Not just computers, I've heard of antique furnitrue coming back in a terrible state. > > I will never loan anything I have to another "Museum" ever again, I > would only trust other enthusiasts, those in the trenches so to speak > who have a respect and understanding for the items they are entrusted with. While I have no problem with demonstrating my machines, and to taking them apart so that other enthusiasts can see the insides, and to letting people use them, I do insist that I am present _all the time_. No exceptions. So yes, if you're, say, restoring an HP9125 plotter, like the one that sold on E-bay rexently for over $2K, and you want to, say, check some signals, then I'll find a way to get mine set up so you can clip your 'scope onto it. But I am not going to lend it to you. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Oct 16 15:44:06 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2010 21:44:06 +0100 (BST) Subject: Babbage Analytical Engine - CBC interview In-Reply-To: <4CB96512.6050507@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at Oct 16, 10 01:40:50 am Message-ID: > Geez, now it's newsworthy to *want* to build things? I want to build a > Saturn V. And I want a pony. I assume you don't mean \pounds 25.00 (A 'pony' is a slang expression over here for that sum of money). So I hace to wonder just what you want a young horse for (Ues, I am well aware that youngish girls often have this desite, but I didn't think that applied to you). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Oct 16 16:02:43 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2010 22:02:43 +0100 (BST) Subject: Xerox Alto on ebay (not mine!) In-Reply-To: <20101016113547.GA8097@plum.flirble.org> from "Andrew Back" at Oct 16, 10 12:35:47 pm Message-ID: > > On (21:02 15/10/10), Tony Duell wrote: > > > > > > Teo Zenios wrote: > > > > There are many old machines that are worth preserving but are better off > > > > in a museum then in somebody's cluttered basement left to rot. > > > > > > There are cases where that's true - but I know how museums can't possibly > > > > I feel even more strongly about this, having dealt with some particularly > > clueless people at musuems and related organisations [1]. To the extent > > that no part of my collection is ever going near a museum. > > Tony, does a week ever pass where you don't feel the inescapable urge to Yes. Plenty of such weeks exist. Like the current one. > flame those who work at museums, regardless of their knowledge, ability and > track record? Hang on a second... I said I had had dealings with some particularly clueless msueums. I did NOT say that all museums are clueless. If you can't understand the difference then I am afraid I regaurd you as somewhat clueless. > You are rude and insulting. Yes, damned rude even. How dare you make such > sweeping generalisations? If the subject of your disapproval were a > particular race or subscribers of a certain religion this would not be Hang on a second. There is a big diffenrce between criticising somebody becuase of their racial background of beliefs and criticising somebody or some organisation because of what they do. It is completely wrong to, say, attack priests or burn down churches, or anything like that. But I have no problem with a statement of the form 'I disagree with $religion on $matter'. I am not advocating any form of harm or damage to computer museums or the people who work there. This does not mean I have to approve of everything they do. > tolerated. Yet somehow it is and you get to flap your jaw, spewing out utter > nonsense asserting that everyone who works at a museum is an idiot, and we > have to put up with it. And *you know full well* that there are plenty of > people who work and volunteer at museums on this list. Oh, I'm not one, in > case you wondered. > > And one can only assume that you intend to be buried with your collection > when the day comes, since at this rate when the day approaches there is > unlikely to be a living soul that will match up to your exacting standards. There are plenty of private collectors who I would be happy to give my collection to. In fact I have already selected one (he knows who it is). > > > [1] My 'favourite' story is the chap from the British Library who didn't > > realise that thermal printouts fade quite quickly, and thus any such > > printouts of historical significance need to be photocopied or scanned > > ASAP. > > To the gallows with him! Oh come on... A person working in such an institution should be aware of something like that. I wouldn't expect him, say, to know how to repair the printer that produced those printouts, but the fact that they fade is surely well-known to anyone involved in conservation of documents. > > So, how about this. Have you ever considered that if you slightly adjusted > your attitude and learnt to work with people rather than lambasting them, > you might actually contribute to the preservation of computer history for > future generations. I am this close {fx : holds up fingers <1mm apart) to making sure I don't contribute anything. That is, I will send e-mails to the Australian HP musuem asking them to stop distributing the 100 or so scheamtics I've produced (many unavailalbe anywwhere else). I will ask that the docuemnts I wrote are removed from bitsavers [1[. I will make sure there are no more CD_ROms of my diagrams. No more distrbituions of my tools to read certain disk on PCs. No more repair tips. No more me running to find amnauls to aswer all the private e-mails I get on how to fix . I can't see I'll be the loser. But no, I won't do that. Becasue I happen to want to help get computers preservedm repaired, restored, and working. [1] Actually, I don't think I ever gave premision for them to be there in the first place. Not that I mind, as far as I am concerned the more people who get information on how to repair old the machines the better. > But, no, it's much easier to take the moral high ground and boast about how > clever you are and how much of an idiot most everyone else is. I assume you work on some machines that I am not especially interested in (there are many...) which is why I don't recall your work anywhere. Could you enlighten me as to what machine(s) they are? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Oct 16 15:36:29 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2010 21:36:29 +0100 (BST) Subject: Xerox Alto on ebay (not mine!) In-Reply-To: <83E38F171E7640539ED2B6AAC6BFB406@dell8300> from "Teo Zenios" at Oct 15, 10 06:13:27 pm Message-ID: > > My experience suggests that few museums would dismantle a rare machine to > > produce documetnation and then fix it, whereas quite a few enthusiasts > > would. Giving a very rarew machine to such an enthusiast is more likely > > to produce inforamtion of benefit to the rest of the classic computing > > community than would be produced if it was given to a museum. > > -tony > > I don't understand that logic. What you want is a collector that will tinker > with an item and modify it so he can print "hello world" on the screen or Whre did I say anything about modifying it? > printer a few times until he gets bored with it, blows it up and cannot fix > it, or dies and it gets trashed. A museum will collect all the information Why do you assume that enthusiasts are going to blow things up, or be unable to fix them? > about that rare device and keep it intact until some later generation has > the need or desire to see what made it tick. The key difference is each time There are several problems with this : 1) The information my not exist, at least not publically. If you need to reverse-engineer a scheamtic, it's a lot easier to do so from a machine that's basically working. 2) ICs fail even if they are not powered up. We all know about bit-rot in EPROMs, but other ICs fail in storage too. It may well be that a machine, however carefulkly it has been stored, will not be available to later genarations. > that rarity passes hands to another collector things get lost and you have Why? If the 2 collectors involved know what they are doing, then nothing will be lost. -tony From zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com Sat Oct 16 16:09:12 2010 From: zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2010 17:09:12 -0400 Subject: Tony and museums (was Xerox Alto..) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CBA1478.2000809@30below.com> On 10/16/2010 02:06 PM, MikeS wrote: [[ At first, I thought this would be one of my very rare "Include the whole gosh darned reply" emails instead of trimming out just the relevant parts, but then, I guess I do need to put a few comments interspersed throughout... see where appropriate... ]] > From: Andrew Back > > On (21:02 15/10/10), Tony Duell wrote: >> > >> > Teo Zenios wrote: >> > > There are many old machines that are worth preserving but are better >> > > off >> > > in a museum then in somebody's cluttered basement left to rot. >> > >> > There are cases where that's true - but I know how museums can't >> > possibly >> >> I feel even more strongly about this, having dealt with some particularly >> clueless people at musuems and related organisations [1]. To the extent >> that no part of my collection is ever going near a museum. > > Tony, does a week ever pass where you don't feel the inescapable urge to > flame those who work at museums, regardless of their knowledge, ability and > track record? Ah... no, only where their track record seems to be known that said individuals were not capable of dealing with (let alone preserving) historical data & hardware... even I saw that! Admittedly, those that aren't capable, he does highlight (on occasion "to the extreme") but this is *good* information if others were looking to donate their equipment and wanted to avoid individuals or organizations that didn't take good care of donations. > You are rude and insulting. Yes, damned rude even. Wot? OMG! Say it ain't so!?! I thought the US had a lock on rude induhviduals.... 'course, at times (more times, recently...), I think I happen to be one of them as well.... I'm tired of the pussyfooting & mollycoddling (I hope these terms translate OK to folks who don't speak American) around instead of "saying what is meant" -- If you don't like what I (or ARD by extension) have to say - here's a thought: *don't listen.* The delete key was invented a long time ago for people who don't want to listen... it's your right not to... use it. ;-) In the US we (still.... barely...) have freedom of speech. Some places don't have that. I get that, and I'm OK with that. AFAIK, everybody, no matter where they live, have at least the freedom to *not listen.* > How dare you make such sweeping generalisations? [[ snippage of ad nauseum... whatever... ]] He didn't generalise. He did, however, state that after enough bad interactions with clueless individuals that worked for/with museums (and as most in the US are non-profit, they usually take what free / volunteer help they can get, even if said help is clueless and nearly useless) that no museum would have access to his items. In the US at least, that would be his right. As far as I can tell (and IANAS) what chunks of the Magna Carta that haven't been repealed/rewritten yet also say he can do what he wants with his stuff, at least until the Queen changes her mind... ;-) > But, no, it's much easier to take the moral high ground and boast about how > clever you are and how much of an idiot most everyone else is. And I've been called an idiot by ARD on at least one occasion (probably much more than that ;-)... why? Because in his eyes, I am. There are a lot of machines I own that I can't do chip-level repair on... On said machines, I'm a board-swapper. I do own machines that he would be reduced to the same level - he chooses not to own those machines. I do. Guess what. As far as electronics repair... and you can quote me on this: "I am an idiot." If I won the lottery tomorrow and could retire & play with hobbies 24x7, I probably wouldn't be able to learn enough about electronics troubleshooting & repair to hold a candle to ARD. (Not to mention chemistry, metalwork or quantum physics...) I'm OK with that. I do better than most, worse than some others. Sterling to doughnuts (Hell, I'd take farthings to doughnuts... yes, I have some, yes, you'd get the better deal!) tho, I probably know a lot more about driving lorry (despite our steering wheels being on the wrong side... ;-) heavy equipment[1], routing protocols, homebrewing and candlemaking... so on those subjects, he's the idiot. ;-) Suffice to say, I doubt he's offended. If he is, he can reply & say so. ;-) > And here is where Mike's reply begins.... > Whoa! Wot? OMG! Say it ain't so!?! We agree on something? ;-) > Talk about "rude and insulting," and making "sweeping generalizations"... > He said he's dealt with "some particularly clueless people at museums;" how > did you get "everyone who works at a museum is an idiot" out of that? > > And if he and Curt decide that based on their bad experiences they won't > lend their systems again to a museum, I think that's their choice to make. > > Finally, to suggest that he hasn't in fact "contributed to the preservation > of computer history" is preposterous and highly insulting; I don't see many > reverse-engineered HP schematics or extremely helpful posts "working with > people" on here with your name on them... And, for those who say that ARD "keeps all the info instead of sharing" --> he shares with the list everything he can, as often as he can, and as well as he can with the equipment he owns. Yes, he doesn't own a current scanner (partly because he can't fix it at the discrete component level, which I may not agree with but is his right) and may not have high-speed Internet access (again - still his right - I have relatives that just recently got *electricity*), just because his form of help "works around" these limitations, doesn't mean it's not help. He's extremely helpful, even if it's calling someone an idiot. Myself, I've been "helped" in the past by ARD in such manner, and even helped a couple others in a similar manner. ;-) > Not many of his contributions are relevant to my interests but I for one > certainly appreciate the time he spends helping the folks on here, in > the HP community and elsewhere Right. I'd never even heard of a "crowbar" that wasn't used for construction demolition before "meeting" ARD. (I've known him for almost 15 years[2], but never met him face-to-face, hence the quotes) > (even if his rants are a little repetitive at times) > ;-) And yes, in those "almost 15 years" I must admit... there has been some repetition. ;-) > Sheesh! Amen, bruddah! I must say, that: 1) if you need help, ARD will always take time to help. It may not be the help you "expect," but in the end you should *learn* from it. If you don't, it's not ARD's fault. ;-) 2) This email was typed more & more increasingly under the influence of a magical brew called "beer." Things at the top may seem slightly more logical than things near the bottom, depending on your level of sobriety. ;-) Laterz, "Merch" =-=-= [1] Yes, the backhoe I owned was built in England (JCB) & the owner's manual _was_ in the Queen's English -- first time I'd seen "Anti-clockwise" (versus - 'counter-') and "Dazzled" (when your high-beams / bright headlights are on) in print... ;-) [2] Raise your hands -- who on this list are still part of the "Top 20?" (/me...) ARD is right there... Sellam as well, but he's been quite silent on the list lately[3]... It would be interesting to see Bill's original records to see who were the first to sign up... Is that info even available anymore? [3] As was I in the recent past... much to everyone's pleasure. I ain't dead yet, tho! ;-) From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Oct 16 16:12:49 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2010 14:12:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Xerox Alto on ebay (not mine!) In-Reply-To: <20101016113547.GA8097@plum.flirble.org> References: <4CB779C7.3010407@gmail.com> <20101016113547.GA8097@plum.flirble.org> Message-ID: <20101016141105.N96679@shell.lmi.net> On Sat, 16 Oct 2010, Andrew Back wrote: > And one can only assume that you intend to be buried with your collection > when the day comes, since at this rate when the day approaches there is > unlikely to be a living soul that will match up to your exacting standards. Face down, nine edge first. From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Oct 16 16:21:04 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2010 14:21:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Babbage Analytical Engine - CBC interview In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20101016141520.Q96679@shell.lmi.net> > > Geez, now it's newsworthy to *want* to build things? I want to build a > > Saturn V. And I want a pony. On Sat, 16 Oct 2010, Tony Duell wrote: > I assume you don't mean \pounds 25.00 (A 'pony' is a slang expression > over here for that sum of money). So I hace to wonder just what you want > a young horse for (Ues, I am well aware that youngish girls often have > this desite, but I didn't think that applied to you). That is the origin of the phrase "I want a pony.". It has become a figure of speech to refer to any irrational/unubtainable/silly desire. I assume that Eric was using it figuratively, although I'm not in touch with his current projects - nobody has yet launched a pony into space. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com I want a time machine. From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Oct 16 16:28:46 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2010 17:28:46 -0400 Subject: Babbage Analytical Engine - CBC interview In-Reply-To: <20101016141520.Q96679@shell.lmi.net> References: <20101016141520.Q96679@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4CBA190E.6080906@neurotica.com> On 10/16/10 5:21 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >>> Geez, now it's newsworthy to *want* to build things? I want to build a >>> Saturn V. And I want a pony. > > On Sat, 16 Oct 2010, Tony Duell wrote: >> I assume you don't mean \pounds 25.00 (A 'pony' is a slang expression >> over here for that sum of money). So I hace to wonder just what you want >> a young horse for (Ues, I am well aware that youngish girls often have >> this desite, but I didn't think that applied to you). > > That is the origin of the phrase "I want a pony.". It has become a figure > of speech to refer to any irrational/unubtainable/silly desire. I assume > that Eric was using it figuratively, although I'm not in touch with his > current projects - nobody has yet launched a pony into space. http://www.funnypicturemarathon.com/pictureView.php?picId=6226 -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com Sat Oct 16 16:42:44 2010 From: zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2010 17:42:44 -0400 Subject: Mac Classic near death... or at least an OOBE... Message-ID: <4CBA1C54.6020406@30below.com> So, there's a Mac Classic that was dropped off at my friends' store (otherwise headed for the skip/dumpster) and I "rescued" it. Yes, I used quotes, as there was this "weird" bright yellow and purple goo emanating from the unit. Thinking something completely odd was spilled *into* the unit, I took it apart to find the damage. Turns out, the PRAM battery was in such bad shape that it was the source of both the purple (rust & other dissolved metals) and yellow (still not sure what that is) goo. I had to pry the motherboard out of the unit (slightly destructively) due to the corrosion on the rails on one side of the motherboard rails just to remove the motherboard. Whatever was bent can be unbent, but will need a *lot* of cleaning to refurbish. The contacts for the PRAM battery were completely gone on the (+) side, and gosh-darned near gone on the (-) side (enough so that it couldn't be repaired). I removed the PRAM battery & holder (with a pair of pliers as it was also damaged to an unrepairable state). That said, what do I actually do with the thing? My idea: Disassemble the unit and turn it into a 68K "microcontroller" trainer unit with a recent(ish) Flash ROM and Static RAM. Yes, I have the technology to build that. Or... back to the original destination (bad). Anyone want it for price of shipping? And yes, for those "keeping score" I have now built a "Mac Cracker." Do I get a prize for being the "Last Geek Ever" to build one? ;-) Laterz, "Merch" From ken at seefried.com Sat Oct 16 16:48:00 2010 From: ken at seefried.com (Ken Seefried) Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2010 21:48:00 +0000 Subject: Xerox Alto on ebay (not mine!) Message-ID: > (I often think that the downside of ebay is that an item goes to the person > with the deepest pockets, and they're not necessarily the best person to treat > an item nicely) So eBay is precisely like every other market on the planet. Shocking. From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sat Oct 16 17:09:56 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2010 18:09:56 -0400 Subject: Tony and museums (was Xerox Alto..) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > Whoa! > > Talk about "rude and insulting," and making "sweeping generalizations"... You just joined the list, I assume. -- Will From teoz at neo.rr.com Sat Oct 16 18:21:54 2010 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2010 19:21:54 -0400 Subject: Xerox Alto on ebay (not mine!) References: Message-ID: <2D87A355BA8F4253B207AC2D68CA1D30@dell8300> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Saturday, October 16, 2010 4:36 PM Subject: Re: Xerox Alto on ebay (not mine!) >> > My experience suggests that few museums would dismantle a rare machine >> > to >> > produce documetnation and then fix it, whereas quite a few enthusiasts >> > would. Giving a very rarew machine to such an enthusiast is more likely >> > to produce inforamtion of benefit to the rest of the classic computing >> > community than would be produced if it was given to a museum. >> > -tony >> >> I don't understand that logic. What you want is a collector that will >> tinker >> with an item and modify it so he can print "hello world" on the screen or > > Whre did I say anything about modifying it? > >> printer a few times until he gets bored with it, blows it up and cannot >> fix >> it, or dies and it gets trashed. A museum will collect all the >> information > > Why do you assume that enthusiasts are going to blow things up, or be > unable to fix them? > >> about that rare device and keep it intact until some later generation has >> the need or desire to see what made it tick. The key difference is each >> time > > There are several problems with this : > > 1) The information my not exist, at least not publically. If you need to > reverse-engineer a scheamtic, it's a lot easier to do so from a machine > that's basically working. > > 2) ICs fail even if they are not powered up. We all know about bit-rot in > EPROMs, but other ICs fail in storage too. It may well be that a machine, > however carefulkly it has been stored, will not be available to later > genarations. > >> that rarity passes hands to another collector things get lost and you >> have > > Why? If the 2 collectors involved know what they are doing, then nothing > will be lost. > > -tony > I just think you are thinking very short term, like 20-50 years not in the very long term 100+ years where museums are involved. Later generations will not care about specific machines (unless it was something revolutionarily special) just in generic how did this thing work. Sooner or later just turning on old relics will release the magic smoke and parts plus expertise in repairing them will be hard to come by. For the most part I expect old systems to be run via emulator so that any software and its data can be read for whatever reason, the original hardware at that point is not important (unless the emulator has a bug or old media needs to be reloaded). All you need is one collector to lose their job for everything they have to hit the trash heap. Just by having to move a few times you will end up losing items or getting them destroyed. Museums probably have a better setup in case of fire. A museum located in a static location is better long term then items going from collectors to collectors. From zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com Sat Oct 16 18:52:52 2010 From: zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2010 19:52:52 -0400 Subject: Xerox Alto on ebay (not mine!) In-Reply-To: <2D87A355BA8F4253B207AC2D68CA1D30@dell8300> References: <2D87A355BA8F4253B207AC2D68CA1D30@dell8300> Message-ID: <4CBA3AD4.8090409@30below.com> On 10/16/2010 07:21 PM, Teo Zenios wrote: > I just think you are thinking very short term, like 20-50 years not in > the very long term 100+ years where museums are involved. Later > generations will not care about specific machines (unless it was > something revolutionarily special) just in generic how did this thing > work. If, you meant to type "1000+ years" then maybe I'd agree with you - when the archaeologists can't figure out things worked, then they're interested enough to *not destroy the unit* while trying to figure out how it works. As a previous poster mentioned - How's the antikythera device reverse-engineering / restoration going thus far? The argument of "But there's so much available information now" doesn't mean much when access the most comprehensive library of the ancient world (Alexandria) evaporated left most people thinking the world is flat for a millennium. If people can't access the info, it doesn't do much good - who's going to have a working DVD-ROM 1000+ years from now? > Sooner or later just turning on old relics will release the magic > smoke and parts plus expertise in repairing them will be hard to come > by. For the most part I expect old systems to be run via emulator so > that any software and its data can be read for whatever reason, the > original hardware at that point is not important (unless the emulator > has a bug or old media needs to be reloaded). Right... but how many "emulators" will be run on PCs that require +1.65v... and if the curators forget that the original hardware needs +5.0V (and that's just TTL... what about RTL or ECL?) and try to get original hardware working without the full specs (remember, this is in a futuristic scenario... we still don't have the full specs of King Tut's tomb, and it's a couple kiloyears old...) Emulators are great for a lot of things (offtopically, especially running WinXP in a sandbox) but aren't nearly so helpful when trying to get original hardware working again... > All you need is one collector to lose their job for everything they have > to hit the trash heap. Just by having to move a few times you will end > up losing items or getting them destroyed. Museums probably have a > better setup in case of fire.... ...For the stuff they care about. How much is in low-end storage that they don't care about? (Yes, I actually own some stuff that's "museum quality" (not computer-based). No, I haven't donated it yet as I need more info to the local museum lackeys & how well said priceless (yes, honestly[1]) treasures will be treated. > A museum located in a static location is > better long term then items going from collectors to collectors. Not if it's destroyed by the museum's volunteer workers because they don't know what they're doing... admittedly, if the collectors have more $$ than brains, than such is still the case. More reason to make sure that whomever gets your (speaking collectively) collection actually knows what to do with it, which I'm pretty sure in ARD's case he's stated that's covered. Mine... not so much. At least not yet. But. I still have stuff to give away, but that's another episode. Laterz, "Merch" [1] Priceless means lots of things. In this case, the items are unique and 5 generations old... but I doubt anyone else would actually pay money for them, no matter how small the amount. Hence... priceless. ;-) From mdavidson1963 at gmail.com Sat Oct 16 19:12:18 2010 From: mdavidson1963 at gmail.com (Mark Davidson) Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2010 17:12:18 -0700 Subject: Xerox Alto on ebay (not mine!) In-Reply-To: <4CBA3AD4.8090409@30below.com> References: <2D87A355BA8F4253B207AC2D68CA1D30@dell8300> <4CBA3AD4.8090409@30below.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Oct 16, 2010 at 4:52 PM, Roger Merchberger wrote: > On 10/16/2010 07:21 PM, Teo Zenios wrote: > >> I just think you are thinking very short term, like 20-50 years not in >> the very long term 100+ years where museums are involved. Later >> generations will not care about specific machines (unless it was >> something revolutionarily special) just in generic how did this thing >> work. > > If, you meant to type "1000+ years" then maybe I'd agree with you - when the > archaeologists can't figure out things worked, then they're interested > enough to *not destroy the unit* while trying to figure out how it works. As > a previous poster mentioned - How's the antikythera device > reverse-engineering / restoration going thus far? True, but I thought of a point... even with machines that are less than 30 years old, finding some of the components/peripherals can be hard. Hell, even software and docs can be impossible to find. > The argument of "But there's so much available information now" doesn't mean > much when access the most comprehensive library of the ancient world > (Alexandria) evaporated left most people thinking the world is flat for a > millennium. If people can't access the info, it doesn't do much good - who's > going to have a working DVD-ROM 1000+ years from now? Even if they did, what about degradation? The movie industry is dealing with old nitrate-based film rotting away. >> Sooner or later just turning on old relics will release the magic >> >> smoke and parts plus expertise in repairing them will be hard to come >> by. For the most part I expect old systems to be run via emulator so >> that any software and its data can be read for whatever reason, the >> original hardware at that point is not important (unless the emulator >> has a bug or old media needs to be reloaded). > > Right... but how many "emulators" will be run on PCs that require +1.65v... > and if the curators forget that the original hardware needs +5.0V (and > that's just TTL... what about RTL or ECL?) and try to get original hardware > working without the full specs (remember, this is in a futuristic > scenario... we still don't have the full specs of King Tut's tomb, and it's > a couple kiloyears old...) Emulators are great for a lot of things > (offtopically, especially running WinXP in a sandbox) but aren't nearly so > helpful when trying to get original hardware working again... Quite true. >> All you need is one collector to lose their job for everything they have >> to hit the trash heap. Just by having to move a few times you will end >> up losing items or getting them destroyed. Museums probably have a >> better setup in case of fire.... > > ...For the stuff they care about. How much is in low-end storage that they > don't care about? (Yes, I actually own some stuff that's "museum quality" > (not computer-based). No, I haven't donated it yet as I need more info to > the local museum lackeys & how well said priceless (yes, honestly[1]) > treasures will be treated. Of course, you can run into the problem of museums rejecting perfectly good hardware because "they already have one". I rescued a very nice collection of AT&T Unix PCs (with tons of diskettes, manuals, expansion cards, spare hard drives) from a lovely person who had tried for a long time to find a home for the collection. She had tried at least 3 museums, all whom had rejected her offer of free equipment. >> A museum located in a static location is >> better long term then items going from collectors to collectors. > > Not if it's destroyed by the museum's volunteer workers because they don't > know what they're doing... admittedly, if the collectors have more $$ than > brains, than such is still the case. > > More reason to make sure that whomever gets your (speaking collectively) > collection actually knows what to do with it, which I'm pretty sure in ARD's > case he's stated that's covered. Mine... not so much. At least not yet. But. > I still have stuff to give away, but that's another episode. Very good point. I've always assured people that I have rescued equipment from that it won't end up on EBay. :) Mark From zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com Sat Oct 16 21:14:04 2010 From: zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2010 22:14:04 -0400 Subject: Babbage Analytical Engine - CBC interview In-Reply-To: <4CB96512.6050507@brouhaha.com> References: <4CB96512.6050507@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4CBA5BEC.0@30below.com> On 10/16/2010 04:40 AM, Eric Smith wrote: > Brent Hilpert wrote: >> For those that can listen to CBC Radio 1 / As-It-Happens show / >> tonight 6:30-8:00, there is to be an interview with the guy that wants >> to build the Analytical Engine. >> > Geez, now it's newsworthy to *want* to build things? I want to build a > Saturn V. And I want a pony. Given the "quality" of news nowadays, I guess it is.... Question is: Do you know how to *build* a pony? And have it work as intended? ;-) (And no... "pony keg" while more useful, doesn't count. ;-) ) Laterz, "Merch" From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Oct 16 21:46:01 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2010 19:46:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Babbage Analytical Engine - CBC interview In-Reply-To: <4CBA5BEC.0@30below.com> References: <4CB96512.6050507@brouhaha.com> <4CBA5BEC.0@30below.com> Message-ID: <20101016194530.K96679@shell.lmi.net> On Sat, 16 Oct 2010, Roger Merchberger wrote: > Given the "quality" of news nowadays, I guess it is.... > > Question is: Do you know how to *build* a pony? And have it work as > intended? ;-) > > (And no... "pony keg" while more useful, doesn't count. ;-) ) But a "pony car" isn't such a big deal From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Sun Oct 17 03:16:51 2010 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2010 10:16:51 +0200 Subject: Oldest original proper computer (stored program etc) In-Reply-To: <882500AE-2115-47BE-82D1-F2D75D52D201@microspot.co.uk> References: <882500AE-2115-47BE-82D1-F2D75D52D201@microspot.co.uk> Message-ID: <20101017101651.233bc7b0.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Sat, 16 Oct 2010 12:51:10 +0100 Roger Holmes wrote: > I'm not counting the Zuse in Germany as its not a stored program > machine, and anyway I'm not sure if it is a replica or the original. What Zuse you are refering to? There are "many". The Z22 at the ZKM sholud be complete and and operable. (If the people at the ZKM have not ruined the machine meanwhile.) It is tube based and was build 1958. It is a stored program machine for sure. Main memory is a drum with 8192 words. It is original and has been kept in working condition most if its lifetime. -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From nick.allen at comcast.net Sun Oct 17 00:34:56 2010 From: nick.allen at comcast.net (Nick Allen) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2010 00:34:56 -0500 Subject: CompuPro CPU-Z with IMSAI and Front Panel issues Message-ID: <4CBA8B00.9030105@comcast.net> Anyone have any experience getting the front panel of an IMSAI computer to work with a CompuPro CPU-Z S100 board? I read the documentation (http://maben.homeip.net/static/S100/compupro/cards/CompuPro%20CPU-Z.pdf), and there seems some configuration required, I obviously am missing something as it is not working properly even after I attempt the config in the documentation. If you currently have a board working and can share a photo, or can provide any technical assistance, I would be extremely grateful! Nick From nick.allen at comcast.net Sun Oct 17 00:47:27 2010 From: nick.allen at comcast.net (Nick Allen) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2010 00:47:27 -0500 Subject: another alto on ebay In-Reply-To: <4CB9CA28.2080707@bitsavers.org> References: <4CB9CA28.2080707@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4CBA8DEF.7050007@comcast.net> I assume it is a fake, if the 0 feedback didn't give it a away, or the lack of descriptions and photos... Then check this out... the photo in the auction, is actually a photo of the Xerox Alto II XM in the Computer History Museum: http://www.flickr.com/photos/24205142 at N00/2371818292 Maybe someone should report this auction to ebay, before some poor sucker gets swindled! From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun Oct 17 05:44:51 2010 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2010 11:44:51 +0100 Subject: More SCSI Confusion Message-ID: <000301cb6de8$57fefcc0$07fcf640$@ntlworld.com> Right now I have two disks and one CD-ROM in my Alpha 433au (all attached to the internal ribbon cable, if you have seen my question about the storage shelf, that is not connected in this instance). The SRM recognises them correctly thus: dka0.0.0.1009.0 DKA0 COMPAQ ST32550W 6415 dka400.4.0.1009.0 DKA400 MATSHITA CD-ROM CR-508 XS03 dka600.6.0.1009.0 DKA600 IBM-PSG DDYS-T18350N M S96E However, when I start the Debian installer, during the boot sequence it does a SCSI reset and then only recognises the first disk, thus: scsi(0:0): Resetting SCSI BUS scsi0 : QLogic QLA1040 PCI to SCSI Host Adapter Firmware version: 7.65.06, Driver version 3.26 Vendor: COMPAQ Model: ST32550W Rev: 6415 Type: Direct-Access ANSI SCSI revision: 02 So, for whatever reason, the CD-ROM and the other hard disk disappear. I have checked the termination and it *seems* to be correct in that the disks and the CD-ROM are not (or *should* not) terminating anything. There is a terminator at the end of the SCSI cable, and I believe the QLA1040 SCSI adapter does its own termination: >>>sh pk* pka0_host_id 7 pka0_mode ultra pka0_soft_term diff Does anyone have any suggestions why the SCSI reset during boot should make the CD-ROM and the other HDD disappear? Thanks Rob From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Sun Oct 17 08:15:34 2010 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2010 15:15:34 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Oldest original proper computer (stored program etc) In-Reply-To: <882500AE-2115-47BE-82D1-F2D75D52D201@microspot.co.uk> References: <882500AE-2115-47BE-82D1-F2D75D52D201@microspot.co.uk> Message-ID: On Sat, 16 Oct 2010, Roger Holmes wrote: > don't believe its true, I was told my machine is currently the oldest > original working computer. Not counting replicas or machines which don't > have stored programs. My machine was installed in 1962 (and designed in > the late 1950s). Then you've been told wrong. Several examples: - Our LGP-30 ser.no. 4, built 1958, still working with peripherals. Just yesterday I've had a group of visitors. It's been designed around 1954. - The IBM 650 of the IBM Museum in Sindelfingen (working) - The Zuse Z22 ser.no. 13 in Karlsruhe, also built around 1958 (apparently still working, although the ZKM is not the right place for it IMHO) All are original first generation machines, and all of them are in southern Germany. > restored was first installed in 1964. Are there other? I'm not counting > the Zuse in Germany as its not a stored program machine, and anyway I'm > not sure if it is a replica or the original. It is surprising if it > survived the extensive bombing by the USAF and RAF during WW2 unless it > was stored in a bunker/cave/mine. What Zuse are you talking about? The Z3 has been destroyed, yes, and rebuilt by Zuse in 1962. Christian From binarydinosaurs at gmail.com Sun Oct 17 09:17:26 2010 From: binarydinosaurs at gmail.com (Adrian Graham) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2010 15:17:26 +0100 Subject: More SCSI Confusion In-Reply-To: <000301cb6de8$57fefcc0$07fcf640$@ntlworld.com> References: <000301cb6de8$57fefcc0$07fcf640$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: On 17 October 2010 11:44, Rob Jarratt wrote: >>>>sh pk* > pka0_host_id ? ? ? ? ? ?7 > pka0_mode ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ultra > pka0_soft_term ? ? ? ? ?diff The QLA1040 isn't differential is it? The soft_term should be just 'on' I think. -- adrian/witchy Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest home computer collection? www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk From labomb_s at yahoo.com Sun Oct 17 10:09:22 2010 From: labomb_s at yahoo.com (Scott LaBombard) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2010 08:09:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: CompuPro CPU-Z with IMSAI and Front Panel issues In-Reply-To: <4CBA8B00.9030105@comcast.net> References: <4CBA8B00.9030105@comcast.net> Message-ID: <828014.33056.qm@web110803.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> ----- Original Message ---- > From: Nick Allen > > Anyone have any experience getting the front panel of an IMSAI computer to work >with a CompuPro CPU-Z S100 board? > I read the documentation >(http://maben.homeip.net/static/S100/compupro/cards/CompuPro%20CPU-Z.pdf), and >there > seems some configuration required, I obviously am missing something as it is >not working properly even after I attempt > the config in the documentation. > Hi Nick, Assuming that you followed the 'Imsai Front Panel Usage' section in the referenced document, I would also take a look at S100 bus pins 54 and 20. I haven't touched any of my Imsai's in several years, but I do recall struggling to get a CompuPro motherboard working with the front panel. If memory serves, at a minimum I had to cut the trace leading to pin 54 (External/Slave Clear) on the front panel PCB itself. I noticed in the CPU-Z schematic that it is indeed driving pin 54 on the bus, so that may well be the issue. As for pin 20, it is GROUND in the IEEE 696 spec. I can't tell if the CPU-Z is driving that pin on the bus or not... if it is, you may want to cut the trace leading to it on the front panel board as well. I have additional notes re. another potential additional change that may be required (somewhere) ...I'll attempt to find them. In the mean time, I would try the pin 54 mod first, and then add the pin 20 mod if necessary. Scott From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Oct 17 10:27:08 2010 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2010 08:27:08 -0700 Subject: More SCSI Confusion In-Reply-To: References: <000301cb6de8$57fefcc0$07fcf640$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: At 3:17 PM +0100 10/17/10, Adrian Graham wrote: >On 17 October 2010 11:44, Rob Jarratt wrote: >>>>>sh pk* >> pka0_host_id 7 >> pka0_mode ultra >> pka0_soft_term diff > >The QLA1040 isn't differential is it? The soft_term should be just >'on' I think. I think it's UW SCSI, it would help to know exactly what model card. This might help. http://www.dectrader.com/docs/set3/ucr_na-CYBEK_KZPBA_UG_B01.pdf-1.pdf I didn't look at the manual, and I'm trying to remember what there are for gotcha's. I think you can use the Narrow connector and *1* UW SCSI connector. Rob, if you haven't, try putting it in a different PCI slot. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun Oct 17 10:32:22 2010 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2010 16:32:22 +0100 Subject: More SCSI Confusion In-Reply-To: References: <000301cb6de8$57fefcc0$07fcf640$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <000b01cb6e10$883f6820$98be3860$@ntlworld.com> Yes I thought about that and I tried changing it to "on" but it did not make a difference; and with the "diff" setting it does seem to work, at least some of the time. I also just found out something strange. If I remove any devices with a SCSI ID numerically lower than the CD-ROM then both the CD-ROM and the higher HDDs are still seen after the SCSI reset. To prove this I took out DKA600 and changed the SCSI ID of DKA0 to make it DKA500. This time, after the reset, it recognised both the CD-ROM (ID 4) and the disk that was at ID 0 and now was at ID 5. Regards Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Adrian Graham > Sent: 17 October 2010 15:17 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: More SCSI Confusion > > On 17 October 2010 11:44, Rob Jarratt wrote: > >>>>sh pk* > > pka0_host_id ? ? ? ? ? ?7 > > pka0_mode ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ultra > > pka0_soft_term ? ? ? ? ?diff > > The QLA1040 isn't differential is it? The soft_term should be just 'on' I think. > > -- > adrian/witchy > Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest home computer collection? > www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk From cclist at sydex.com Sun Oct 17 10:34:34 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2010 08:34:34 -0700 Subject: Oldest original proper computer (stored program etc) In-Reply-To: References: , <882500AE-2115-47BE-82D1-F2D75D52D201@microspot.co.uk>, Message-ID: <4CBAB51A.24918.7A7A7@cclist.sydex.com> On 17 Oct 2010 at 15:15, Christian Corti wrote: > Then you've been told wrong. > Several examples: > - Our LGP-30 ser.no. 4, built 1958, still working with peripherals. > Just > yesterday I've had a group of visitors. It's been designed around > 1954. > - The IBM 650 of the IBM Museum in Sindelfingen (working) > - The Zuse Z22 ser.no. 13 in Karlsruhe, also built around 1958 > (apparently > still working, although the ZKM is not the right place for it IMHO) > All are original first generation machines, and all of them are in > southern Germany. I seem to remember that there was also a fellow in Germany (he had a web site) with a Univac Solid State 80 (late 50s) in operation. It sounds as if Germany is the happy hunting ground for really old operating iron. Does the Deutsches Museum in Munich have any ancient operating computer gear? It seems as if they'd be a prime candidate also. --Chuck From dm561 at torfree.net Sun Oct 17 11:00:25 2010 From: dm561 at torfree.net (MikeS) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2010 12:00:25 -0400 Subject: Joining the list References: Message-ID: <2E469DC9FC464EA89943699E53B9844E@vl420mt> I see there still are a few folks on Erik's VC forum trying unsuccessfully to sign up on cctalk; wasn't there some talk recently about taking some of the load off Jay's plate and giving approval authority to one or two other people? Or are new members intentionally being discouraged to keep down the volume, etc., as some folks are speculating? mike From geneb at deltasoft.com Sun Oct 17 11:14:58 2010 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2010 09:14:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Joining the list In-Reply-To: <2E469DC9FC464EA89943699E53B9844E@vl420mt> References: <2E469DC9FC464EA89943699E53B9844E@vl420mt> Message-ID: On Sun, 17 Oct 2010, MikeS wrote: > I see there still are a few folks on Erik's VC forum trying unsuccessfully to > sign up on cctalk; wasn't there some talk recently about taking some of the > load off Jay's plate and giving approval authority to one or two other > people? > >From what Jay has told me, the spammers applying to the list is what locked it down in the first place and he's unable to keep up with the number of sub requests. Essentially, legitimate users are being drowned out by the volume of spammers trying to subscribe to the list. I suggested that he ask the subscriber to email him a "reason" to subscribe to the list - this would cut down on the spammers effectively - if the reason isn't classic computer oriented, they're likely a spammer. :) This request could be added to the template file that MailMan uses to send out the subscription confirmation link. Just include an email address that would receive these "request reason" emails. This system works really well for the 80sBBS list I work with at Yahoo!. You can tell the spam requests because the reason falls into one of three categories - random text, telling me how nice my "pic" is, or an offer to help me improve my ability to bisect some unsuspecting female. > Or are new members intentionally being discouraged to keep down the volume, > etc., as some folks are speculating? > Now THAT is utter nonsense. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Oct 17 13:07:48 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2010 19:07:48 +0100 (BST) Subject: Tony and museums (was Xerox Alto..) In-Reply-To: <4CBA1478.2000809@30below.com> from "Roger Merchberger" at Oct 16, 10 05:09:12 pm Message-ID: > > Tony, does a week ever pass where you don't feel the inescapable urge to > > flame those who work at museums, regardless of their knowledge, ability and > > track record? > > Ah... no, only where their track record seems to be known that said > individuals were not capable of dealing with (let alone preserving) > historical data & hardware... even I saw that! I am happy to accept that clueful museum people exist. The problem is that I have met far too few of them. This may vary by country, because of what's expected of a museum in various places (over here, I believe it has to be 'accessible to all'. This doesn't just mean the reasonable thing that everybody, including, say, those in wheelchairs, have to be able to get round it. It also means, essentially, it has to be terminally dumbed down). Since classic computers are difficult to transport (large, heavy, delicate, etc) _if_ I was going to leave any part of my collection to a meuseum, it would have to be one that's fairly local. And I can't think of one that I regard as suitable (I would love to be proved wrong...) [...] > > You are rude and insulting. Yes, damned rude even. > > Wot? OMG! Say it ain't so!?! I thought the US had a lock on rude > induhviduals.... 'course, at times (more times, recently...), I think I > happen to be one of them as well.... Oh no... I can be as rude as you want :-) [...] > And I've been called an idiot by ARD on at least one occasion (probably > much more than that ;-)... why? Because in his eyes, I am. There are a > lot of machines I own that I can't do chip-level repair on... On said Well, then it's high time I aught you how to do component level repair :-) > machines, I'm a board-swapper. I do own machines that he would be > reduced to the same level - he chooses not to own those machines. I do. You know, even with a modern PC, I doubt I'd be a real board-swapper, Oh, I'd probably end up replacing a board, becuae there's not a lot you can do when all the logic is in a couple of BGA-packaged ASICs. But I would make darn sure I knew what was really wrong first. > > Guess what. As far as electronics repair... and you can quote me on > this: "I am an idiot." If I won the lottery tomorrow and could retire & > play with hobbies 24x7, I probably wouldn't be able to learn enough > about electronics troubleshooting & repair to hold a candle to ARD. (Not > to mention chemistry, metalwork or quantum physics...) I'm OK with that. Quantum physics? Surely you jest. I may have a bit of paper that gives me a qaualficiation in aprticle physics, but I can assure you the work I did involved things like transputers, FAST, ECL, occam, microcode, etc and not things like quarks and leptons. > I do better than most, worse than some others. Sterling to doughnuts > (Hell, I'd take farthings to doughnuts... yes, I have some, yes, you'd > get the better deal!) tho, I probably know a lot more about driving > lorry (despite our steering wheels being on the wrong side... ;-) heavy COnsdierign I have never learnt to drive a car, you are certainly right here. > equipment[1], routing protocols, homebrewing and candlemaking... so on Yep right again. Well, assuming 'homebrewing' means making beer [1] and not homebrewing computer hardware. In the latter case, I think it's debatable if you know more than me :-) [1] Actually, I don't much care for beer [2] [2] Notice I am expressing a personal opinion here. I am not saying that those who do like to drink beer are idiots or not worth bothering with, or... I am not suggesting that pubs should be closed down. > those subjects, he's the idiot. ;-) Suffice to say, I doubt he's > offended. If he is, he can reply & say so. ;-) Why on earth would I be offended by that? I can name a dozen -- no more than that -- subjects that I know next-to-nothing about. And I'll bet that for at least some of them there are people here who have considerable knowledge. So what? Heck, I can think of plenty of classic computers where others here know a lot more than me. My problem is not with people who have limited knowledge in a particular area and realise that. They may well not need or want to know any more about that subject,, or they may want to learn about it. Either way, no problem. No, what I have a problem with is people who have a limited knowledge but end up doing a job that requires said knowledge, to the detriment of others (or in this case, to the detriment of computer preservation) [...] > And, for those who say that ARD "keeps all the info instead of sharing" > --> he shares with the list everything he can, as often as he can, and > as well as he can with the equipment he owns. > > Yes, he doesn't own a current scanner (partly because he can't fix it at > the discrete component level, which I may not agree with but is his > right) and may not have high-speed Internet access (again - still his > right - I have relatives that just recently got *electricity*), just Also remember that while _I_ don't own a scanner, this doesn't mean that things I produce can never be scanned. It's happeend many times in the past, and it will happen in the future (I hope). > because his form of help "works around" these limitations, doesn't mean > it's not help. He's extremely helpful, even if it's calling someone an > idiot. Myself, I've been "helped" in the past by ARD in such manner, and > even helped a couple others in a similar manner. ;-) I try to reply to _every_ personal e-mail on a subject that I might reasonably be expected to have some information (clasisc computing, electronics, etc). The reply may well be 'Oh, I am not the person to ask about that, you might want to contact $expert'. Or Imight suggest what book or manual to look in. Or whatever. But I will try and reply. There is one point though. If the answer requires a significant amount of work on my part (e.g. I have to dig out a machine, dismantle it, set it up, make masurements, etc), I will still probalby do it _sometime_, but it's when I feel like it. If you want a next-day consultancy service, you can darn well pay for it :-). > > > Not many of his contributions are relevant to my interests but I for one > > certainly appreciate the time he spends helping the folks on here, in > > the HP community and elsewhere One minor point. The term 'HP community' apparently has a specific meaning, it's a group of people that I am told I am not, and never will be, a mamber of. This doesn't stop me fixing old HP machines and sharing information on how to do so. [...] > I must say, that: > > 1) if you need help, ARD will always take time to help. It may not be > the help you "expect," but in the end you should *learn* from it. If you > don't, it's not ARD's fault. ;-) Thank you... Be warned, ig you ask me to help you diagnose a hardware fault, even if I am pretty sure I know what component is causing the problem, i will almost certainly get you to make measurements to prove it. That way, you (hopefully) get to learn how to trace faults yourself next time. Not because I don't want to be bothered, but because I would like this knowledge to be preserved. > [1] Yes, the backhoe I owned was built in England (JCB) & the owner's > manual _was_ in the Queen's English -- first time I'd seen > "Anti-clockwise" (versus - 'counter-') and "Dazzled" (when your > high-beams / bright headlights are on) in print... ;-) Often the 'high beams' are known as 'main beams' over here. As opposed to 'dipped beams/headlights'. The swtich to select between them is the 'dipper switch' or 'dip swtich'. The original (trade?) name for a twin filamanet headlight bulb was a 'double dipper'. Incidentally, what word would you generally used for 'dazzled'? > [2] Raise your hands -- who on this list are still part of the "Top 20?" > (/me...) ARD is right there... Sellam as well, but he's been quite > silent on the list lately[3]... It would be interesting to see Bill's > original records to see who were the first to sign up... Is that info > even available anymore? All I can remember is that when I joined you had to send an e-mail giving the reasons why you wanted to be on the list, your interests, etc. -tony From cclist at sydex.com Sun Oct 17 14:17:18 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2010 12:17:18 -0700 Subject: Babbage Analytical Engine - CBC interview In-Reply-To: <20101016194530.K96679@shell.lmi.net> References: , <4CBA5BEC.0@30below.com>, <20101016194530.K96679@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4CBAE94E.30431.D395A6@cclist.sydex.com> I've been to the site that proposes building the Analytical Engine. I recall reading about Babbage's work many years ago and it was the opinion of the author (I don't recall the source, sorry) that AE was basically unbuildable using 19th century materials and methods. The reason to the best of my recollection appeared not to be the scale, but rather simple mechanical considerations; that is, frictional losses, strength of materials, etc. Does this view still hold any merit? --Chuck From jws at jwsss.com Sun Oct 17 04:12:15 2010 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2010 02:12:15 -0700 Subject: Oldest original proper computer (stored program etc) In-Reply-To: <20101017101651.233bc7b0.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <882500AE-2115-47BE-82D1-F2D75D52D201@microspot.co.uk> <20101017101651.233bc7b0.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <4CBABDEF.3060300@jwsss.com> On 10/17/2010 1:16 AM, Jochen Kunz wrote: > On Sat, 16 Oct 2010 12:51:10 +0100 > Roger Holmes wrote: > >> I'm not counting the Zuse in Germany as its not a stored program >> machine, and anyway I'm not sure if it is a replica or the original. > What Zuse you are refering to? There are "many". > > The Z22 at the ZKM sholud be complete and and operable. (If the people > at the ZKM have not ruined the machine meanwhile.) It is tube based and > was build 1958. It is a stored program machine for sure. Main memory is > a drum with 8192 words. It is original and has been kept in working > condition most if its lifetime. We cannot get on this list yet, but have an LGP-30 and Univac 3 which should be operable. Also Minuteman computer is in the collection. The Univac was removed from operation and stored. Passed to storage yard owner, then to our collection. LGP-30 + set of spares may operate. Again was stored "operable". I'm interested in the thread given the possibility of having such old hardware. Jim From billdeg at degnanco.com Sun Oct 17 15:06:22 2010 From: billdeg at degnanco.com (B Degnan) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2010 16:06:22 -0400 Subject: another alto on ebay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CBB573E.7010807@degnanco.com> > > 110599066440 > > Pretty lame listing. No useful pictures. He CLAIMS it is an Alto I, but > you can't tell anything from the listing picture > It's not, it's an Alto II XM, here are pics from a very similar close S/N system taken from VCF MW. You can see from those pictures the chip dates are in the late 70's and therefore the unit on Ebay is also a later version. http://vintagecomputer.net/vcfmw-ECCC_2010/Xerox_Alto-II-XM/ Bill From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Oct 17 15:07:31 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2010 13:07:31 -0700 Subject: Babbage Analytical Engine - CBC interview In-Reply-To: <4CBAE94E.30431.D395A6@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4CBA5BEC.0@30below.com>, <20101016194530.K96679@shell.lmi.net> <4CBAE94E.30431.D395A6@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4CBB5783.20104@brouhaha.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > I recall reading about Babbage's work many years ago and it was the > opinion of the author (I don't recall the source, sorry) that AE was > basically unbuildable using 19th century materials and methods. The > reason to the best of my recollection appeared not to be the scale, > but rather simple mechanical considerations; that is, frictional > losses, strength of materials, etc. > > Does this view still hold any merit? I thought the same claims were made about the Difference Engine #2, but there is now an existence proof that it works, since two working units have been made. Another claim was that in the 19th century, parts couldn't be manufactured to sufficiently tight tolerances. However, measurements of the portion of the Difference Engine #1 that was constructed by Babbage's engineer, Joseph Clement, from 1824 to 1833 show that he was in fact able to meet the tolerances required. It was Clement that proposed standardization of screw threads, a cause taken up by Joseph Whitworth. From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Oct 17 15:21:21 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2010 13:21:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Babbage Analytical Engine - CBC interview In-Reply-To: <4CBB5783.20104@brouhaha.com> References: , <4CBA5BEC.0@30below.com>, <20101016194530.K96679@shell.lmi.net> <4CBAE94E.30431.D395A6@cclist.sydex.com> <4CBB5783.20104@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <20101017131750.G28278@shell.lmi.net> > I recall reading about Babbage's work many years ago and it was the > opinion of the author (I don't recall the source, sorry) that AE was > basically unbuildable using 19th century materials and methods. The > reason to the best of my recollection appeared not to be the scale, > but rather simple mechanical considerations; that is, frictional > losses, strength of materials, etc. > Does this view still hold any merit? It is also "well known" that the capability of building something on the order of the Antikytheran device did not exist at the time that the Antikytheran device was built. "They didn't even have gear teeth shaped like that until a thousand years later" From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Oct 17 16:00:29 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2010 14:00:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Tony and museums (was Xerox Alto..) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20101017134836.M28278@shell.lmi.net> On Sun, 17 Oct 2010, Tony Duell wrote: > Often the 'high beams' are known as 'main beams' over here. As opposed to > 'dipped beams/headlights'. The swtich to select between them is the > 'dipper switch' or 'dip swtich'. The original (trade?) name for a twin > filamanet headlight bulb was a 'double dipper'. > Incidentally, what word would you generally used for 'dazzled'? "blinded". Unfortunately, the lack of differentiation between "flash blindness" and permanent damage has led to many people believing that thousands of people have permanently lost their eyesight due to laser pointers. In USA, it is called a "dimmer switch" and "dual beam", and high beams are NEVER called "main", possibly due to the likelihood that the clueless will misinterpret that to mean that they should almost ALWAYS be in the "high" position. The filaments in a dual beam "sealed beam" headlight are not individually replaceable. If you can intercept one being discarded, the use of the remaining filament makes it a very handy load for power supply testing. The dimmer switch is now on the steering column in a multi-purpose combination switch that controls enough things that it is not generally considered to be repairable, in lieu of replaceable. I remember when the dimmer switch was a button for the left foot. From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun Oct 17 16:39:24 2010 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2010 22:39:24 +0100 Subject: More SCSI Confusion In-Reply-To: References: <000301cb6de8$57fefcc0$07fcf640$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <001b01cb6e43$c7a16b20$56e44160$@ntlworld.com> The card is a KZPBA-CX. Web searches would indicate that this is really the same as the -CA model. I tried it in two different PCI slots. In the behaviour was exactly the same and in the other it failed to be recognised by the SRM. Thanks for the link to the manual, I will study it carefully. Regards Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Zane H. Healy > Sent: 17 October 2010 16:27 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: More SCSI Confusion > > At 3:17 PM +0100 10/17/10, Adrian Graham wrote: > >On 17 October 2010 11:44, Rob Jarratt > wrote: > >>>>>sh pk* > >> pka0_host_id 7 > >> pka0_mode ultra > >> pka0_soft_term diff > > > >The QLA1040 isn't differential is it? The soft_term should be just 'on' > >I think. > > I think it's UW SCSI, it would help to know exactly what model card. > > This might help. > http://www.dectrader.com/docs/set3/ucr_na-CYBEK_KZPBA_UG_B01.pdf- > 1.pdf > > I didn't look at the manual, and I'm trying to remember what there are for > gotcha's. I think you can use the Narrow connector and *1* UW SCSI > connector. > > Rob, if you haven't, try putting it in a different PCI slot. > > Zane > > > > -- > | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | > | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | > | | Photographer | > +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ > | My flickr Photostream | > | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Sun Oct 17 17:45:46 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2010 23:45:46 +0100 Subject: AT&T 3B1 Boot PROM and system software images? Message-ID: <4CBB7C9A.4060804@philpem.me.uk> Hi guys, Does anyone have images of the Boot PROM and system software for an AT&T 3B1? I've been skimming the 3B1 tech-ref which Steven Hirsch scanned, and it looks to me like an emulator wouldn't be too difficult a prospect. Take the UAE 68k emulator core, bolt on an emulation of the disc controllers, and write something to emulate the display controller. Link against SDL, add salt and pepper to taste. Problem is, the Boot ROM doesn't seem to have been imaged, and the same applies to the software discs. I've had a quick look on my 'usual haunts' (Bitsavers, the Bluefeathertech archive, and Google) but haven't managed to find anything useful... Have any of these items been imaged? Thanks, -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Oct 17 17:55:26 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2010 18:55:26 -0400 Subject: AT&T 3B1 Boot PROM and system software images? In-Reply-To: <4CBB7C9A.4060804@philpem.me.uk> References: <4CBB7C9A.4060804@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4CBB7EDE.70407@neurotica.com> On 10/17/10 6:45 PM, Philip Pemberton wrote: > Does anyone have images of the Boot PROM and system software for an AT&T > 3B1? > > I've been skimming the 3B1 tech-ref which Steven Hirsch scanned, and it > looks to me like an emulator wouldn't be too difficult a prospect. Take > the UAE 68k emulator core, bolt on an emulation of the disc controllers, > and write something to emulate the display controller. Link against SDL, > add salt and pepper to taste. > > Problem is, the Boot ROM doesn't seem to have been imaged, and the same > applies to the software discs. I've had a quick look on my 'usual > haunts' (Bitsavers, the Bluefeathertech archive, and Google) but haven't > managed to find anything useful... > > Have any of these items been imaged? I have distribution disk images; let me know if you'd like me to put them up temporarily for you to grab. For the longer-term, it is my desire to put up an archive of all the 3B1 stuff I can find. I've not imaged the ROMs, but will do so if they're socketed, after our big yard sale this weekend. (I should be able to reach my 3B1 then) That is, if nobody else has gotten to it by then. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From blstuart at bellsouth.net Sun Oct 17 18:04:52 2010 From: blstuart at bellsouth.net (blstuart at bellsouth.net) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2010 19:04:52 -0400 Subject: AT&T 3B1 Boot PROM and system software images? In-Reply-To: <4CBB7EDE.70407@neurotica.com> Message-ID: > I have distribution disk images; let me know if you'd like me to put > them up temporarily for you to grab. For the longer-term, it is my > desire to put up an archive of all the 3B1 stuff I can find. Peter da Silva still (at least I think still) maintains the archive site that I used to have about 15 years ago. Theoretically, I've still got it all on CD somewhere, but if Peter still has it available, that's probably easier. However, I'm pretty sure the distribution disks weren't part of it all. I just checked and it's available at: http://unixpc.taronga.com/ BLS From v.slyngstad at frontier.com Sun Oct 17 18:06:01 2010 From: v.slyngstad at frontier.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2010 16:06:01 -0700 Subject: pdp-8/i ECO history? Message-ID: Does anyone have the ECO history of the pdp-8/i available? I am looking at http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp8/pdp8i/PDP8-I_CPU_blueprints_1969.pdf. On sheet d-bs-8i-0-6 there's a gate added at D6 in the drawing, probably in ECO #13, #25, or #50. It uses the M113 at F32N2 to invert something called "IO PC LOAD", and connects to a previously tied high input of the 4-input NAND at E32E2 (which calculates "PC LOAD"). The problem is, nothing anywhere in the drawings appears to generate a signal called "IO PC LOAD". I don't imagine anyone knows off the top of their head what this signal is, how it is generated. A look at the ECO history should help explain when this was added and why, though. Also, if anyone knows of an I/O device or option for the 8/i that would load a new value into the PC, that might give some clues where to look. Thanks in advance, Vince (I am making excellent headway on a project which translate the 8/i schematics, including all the options, into Verilog for an FPGA, but I currently have this signal tied to an input pin for lack of any information about it.) -- o< The ASCII Ribbon Campaign Against HTML Email! From shumaker at att.net Sun Oct 17 18:25:03 2010 From: shumaker at att.net (steve shumaker) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2010 16:25:03 -0700 Subject: Tony and museums (was Xerox Alto..) In-Reply-To: <20101017134836.M28278@shell.lmi.net> References: <20101017134836.M28278@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4CBB85CF.6040209@att.net> On 10/17/2010 2:00 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Sun, 17 Oct 2010, Tony Duell wrote: > >> Often the 'high beams' are known as 'main beams' over here. As opposed to >> 'dipped beams/headlights'. The swtich to select between them is the >> 'dipper switch' or 'dip swtich'. The original (trade?) name for a twin >> filamanet headlight bulb was a 'double dipper'. >> Incidentally, what word would you generally used for 'dazzled'? >> > "blinded". > Unfortunately, the lack of differentiation between "flash blindness" and > permanent damage has led to many people believing that thousands of people > have permanently lost their eyesight due to laser pointers. > > In USA, it is called a "dimmer switch" and "dual beam", and high beams are > NEVER called "main", possibly due to the likelihood that the clueless will > misinterpret that to mean that they should almost ALWAYS be in the "high" > position. > > The filaments in a dual beam "sealed beam" headlight are not individually > replaceable. If you can intercept one being discarded, the use of the > remaining filament makes it a very handy load for power supply testing. > > The dimmer switch is now on the steering column in a multi-purpose > combination switch that controls enough things that it is not generally > considered to be repairable, in lieu of replaceable. > I remember when the dimmer switch was a button for the left foot. > Ya and frankly wish it were still the case. Every time I try to dim the lights something else comes on. Never have quite got the hang of it... lol ...OK 20 lashes for taking things even further off topic! steve > > > > From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Oct 17 18:33:34 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2010 16:33:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Tony and museums (was Xerox Alto..) In-Reply-To: <4CBB85CF.6040209@att.net> References: <20101017134836.M28278@shell.lmi.net> <4CBB85CF.6040209@att.net> Message-ID: <20101017163133.R28278@shell.lmi.net> > > The dimmer switch is now on the steering column in a multi-purpose > > combination switch that controls enough things that it is not generally > > considered to be repairable, in lieu of replaceable. > > I remember when the dimmer switch was a button for the left foot. On Sun, 17 Oct 2010, steve shumaker wrote: > Ya and frankly wish it were still the case. Every time I try to dim > the lights something else comes on. Never have quite got the hang of > it... lol ...OK 20 lashes for taking things even further off topic! Our best hope is that someday, maybe computer user interface designers will realize the issues. From rborsuk at colourfull.com Sun Oct 17 18:51:24 2010 From: rborsuk at colourfull.com (Robert Borsuk) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2010 19:51:24 -0400 Subject: ProFiles magazine scans. In-Reply-To: References: <83E38F171E7640539ED2B6AAC6BFB406@dell8300> <4CB8D892.3050608@jwsss.com> Message-ID: Gene, I've never seen these before. I'm not a Kaypro user (none in the collection) but I've owned a couple in the past. I grabbed the first issue. This looks like it will be a fun read. Thanks for uploading them. Rob On Oct 16, 2010, at 12:42 PM, Gene Buckle wrote: > I recently started receiving the contents of a closed CP/M user group. The collection is mostly Kaypro oriented - the first scans I've completed are for ProFiles magazine. > > I've scanned 19 issues spanning volumes 1 thru 6, with Vol5 being completed. 25 remain in the collection yet to be scanned - I'll get to those in the coming week or two. > > I've taken this as an opportunity to reorganize the documentation section of the retroarchive.org site a bit - It's now split between hardware & software docs instead of being mixed together. > > http://www.retroarchive.org > > tnx. > > g. > > > -- > Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 > http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. > http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project > > ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment > A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. > http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Robert Borsuk rborsuk at colourfull.com Colourfull Creations http://www.colourfull.com From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Oct 17 19:01:03 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2010 20:01:03 -0400 Subject: Babbage Analytical Engine - CBC interview In-Reply-To: <4CBAE94E.30431.D395A6@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4CBA5BEC.0@30below.com> <20101016194530.K96679@shell.lmi.net> <4CBAE94E.30431.D395A6@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > I recall reading about Babbage's work many years ago and it was the > opinion of the author (I don't recall the source, sorry) that AE was > basically unbuildable using 19th century materials and methods. ?The > reason to the best of my recollection appeared not to be the scale, > but rather simple mechanical considerations; that is, frictional > losses, strength of materials, etc. > > Does this view still hold any merit? With one big difference - it was basically unbuildable by the British machinists of the time. By the early 1830s or so, North American, and especially middle European, machinists had moved to more modern tooling and practices and displaced the British as the best machinists. By the 1860s the British were quite far behind. You can see this with guns, clocks, lab instruments, telescopes, and such. Had Babbage been German or Swiss or living in Rhode Island, things today might be very different. -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Oct 17 19:09:08 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2010 20:09:08 -0400 Subject: Oldest original proper computer (stored program etc) In-Reply-To: <4CBABDEF.3060300@jwsss.com> References: <882500AE-2115-47BE-82D1-F2D75D52D201@microspot.co.uk> <20101017101651.233bc7b0.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <4CBABDEF.3060300@jwsss.com> Message-ID: > We cannot get on this list yet, but have an LGP-30 and Univac 3 which should > be operable. ?Also Minuteman computer is in the collection. > > The Univac was removed from operation and stored. ?Passed to storage yard > owner, then to our collection. Was this the one that popped up on Ebay maybe ten years ago? I think it was stored in trailers in the Midwest. Has it recently changed hands? "Passed to storage yard owner" sounds a bit scary (as if someone was not paying rent!). Anyway, I remember that Univac being a bit on the rough side. I lusted for it for a while. -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Oct 17 19:22:53 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2010 20:22:53 -0400 Subject: Xerox Alto on ebay (not mine!) In-Reply-To: <4CBA3AD4.8090409@30below.com> References: <2D87A355BA8F4253B207AC2D68CA1D30@dell8300> <4CBA3AD4.8090409@30below.com> Message-ID: > The argument of "But there's so much available information now" doesn't mean > much when access the most comprehensive library of the ancient world > (Alexandria) evaporated left most people thinking the world is flat for a > millennium. Back then, information just was not viewed as very important at all. Comparing how people thought back then to how we think now just does not work well - so much to our very cores is different. > If people can't access the info, it doesn't do much good - who's > going to have a working DVD-ROM 1000+ years from now? In 1000+ years, our tools will have advanced to the point that we could just ask Machine X to scan the mystery disk in our hand and figure out what it is. We will have analytical sensors that will look at every atom of the DVD, and nearly infinite computing power (and AI that will make us seem as smart as a toadstool) to figure out the format. Unless the Jihad comes early. > More reason to make sure that whomever gets your (speaking collectively) > collection actually knows what to do with it, which I'm pretty sure in ARD's > case he's stated that's covered. Mine... not so much. At least not yet. But. > I still have stuff to give away, but that's another episode. One is not covered unless there is legal paper to back it up. -- Will From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Sun Oct 17 19:28:43 2010 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2010 19:28:43 -0500 Subject: Xerox Alto on ebay (not mine!) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CBB94BB.3070803@gmail.com> Ken Seefried wrote: >> (I often think that the downside of ebay is that an item goes to the person > with the deepest pockets, and they're not necessarily the best person to treat > an item nicely) > > So eBay is precisely like every other market on the planet. > > Shocking. I don't think that I claimed that it wasn't. My point was that it often has a downside when it comes to getting items to people who are best capable of preserving them for future generations. From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Oct 17 19:29:32 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2010 20:29:32 -0400 Subject: Xerox Alto on ebay (not mine!) In-Reply-To: <4CBB94BB.3070803@gmail.com> References: <4CBB94BB.3070803@gmail.com> Message-ID: > I don't think that I claimed that it wasn't. My point was > that it often has a downside when it comes to getting items to people who > are best capable of preserving them for future generations. I assume this is the recurring "deep pocket collectors are not the best caretakers" issue. What evidence do you have? I have been knees deep in the antiques trade for quite a few years now, and this is simply not what I see. -- Will From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Sun Oct 17 19:37:12 2010 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2010 19:37:12 -0500 Subject: Xerox Alto on ebay (not mine!) In-Reply-To: References: <2D87A355BA8F4253B207AC2D68CA1D30@dell8300> <4CBA3AD4.8090409@30below.com> Message-ID: <4CBB96B8.5070700@gmail.com> Mark Davidson wrote: > On Sat, Oct 16, 2010 at 4:52 PM, Roger Merchberger > wrote: >> On 10/16/2010 07:21 PM, Teo Zenios wrote: >> >>> I just think you are thinking very short term, like 20-50 years not in >>> the very long term 100+ years where museums are involved. Later >>> generations will not care about specific machines (unless it was >>> something revolutionarily special) just in generic how did this thing >>> work. >> If, you meant to type "1000+ years" then maybe I'd agree with you - when the >> archaeologists can't figure out things worked, then they're interested >> enough to *not destroy the unit* while trying to figure out how it works. As >> a previous poster mentioned - How's the antikythera device >> reverse-engineering / restoration going thus far? > > True, but I thought of a point... even with machines that are less > than 30 years old, finding some of the components/peripherals can be > hard. Hell, even software and docs can be impossible to find. > >> The argument of "But there's so much available information now" doesn't mean >> much when access the most comprehensive library of the ancient world >> (Alexandria) evaporated left most people thinking the world is flat for a >> millennium. If people can't access the info, it doesn't do much good - who's >> going to have a working DVD-ROM 1000+ years from now? > > Even if they did, what about degradation? The movie industry is > dealing with old nitrate-based film rotting away. > >>> Sooner or later just turning on old relics will release the magic >>> >>> smoke and parts plus expertise in repairing them will be hard to come >>> by. For the most part I expect old systems to be run via emulator so >>> that any software and its data can be read for whatever reason, the >>> original hardware at that point is not important (unless the emulator >>> has a bug or old media needs to be reloaded). >> Right... but how many "emulators" will be run on PCs that require +1.65v... >> and if the curators forget that the original hardware needs +5.0V (and >> that's just TTL... what about RTL or ECL?) and try to get original hardware >> working without the full specs (remember, this is in a futuristic >> scenario... we still don't have the full specs of King Tut's tomb, and it's >> a couple kiloyears old...) Emulators are great for a lot of things >> (offtopically, especially running WinXP in a sandbox) but aren't nearly so >> helpful when trying to get original hardware working again... > > Quite true. > >>> All you need is one collector to lose their job for everything they have >>> to hit the trash heap. Just by having to move a few times you will end >>> up losing items or getting them destroyed. Museums probably have a >>> better setup in case of fire.... >> ...For the stuff they care about. How much is in low-end storage that they >> don't care about? (Yes, I actually own some stuff that's "museum quality" >> (not computer-based). No, I haven't donated it yet as I need more info to >> the local museum lackeys & how well said priceless (yes, honestly[1]) >> treasures will be treated. > > Of course, you can run into the problem of museums rejecting perfectly > good hardware because "they already have one". I rescued a very nice > collection of AT&T Unix PCs (with tons of diskettes, manuals, > expansion cards, spare hard drives) from a lovely person who had tried > for a long time to find a home for the collection. She had tried at > least 3 museums, all whom had rejected her offer of free equipment. I think most museums (not just computer-related) could do a lot better in acting as intermediaries between people who need to "dispose" of items and those who might want what they have - the museum attitude a lot of the time is "we don't want that, so we don't care what you do with it," when it's not really much more effort to say "we don't want it, but we recognise that these things won't be around forever, and so therefore you could ask here and here and here..." It's not about doing the work of actually finding a home for it, but more about suggesting places / individuals who might be interested, based upon experience of the item being offered. > Very good point. I've always assured people that I have rescued > equipment from that it won't end up on EBay. :) Yes, me too - or not ebay specifically, but more that I'll try to find a good home for it. Once out of my hands it's out of control, but at least I can sleep easy in the knowledge that I tried to do right by it rather than making a quick buck. cheers Jules From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Oct 17 19:37:44 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2010 20:37:44 -0400 Subject: Xerox Alto on ebay (not mine!) In-Reply-To: <4CBB96B8.5070700@gmail.com> References: <2D87A355BA8F4253B207AC2D68CA1D30@dell8300> <4CBA3AD4.8090409@30below.com> <4CBB96B8.5070700@gmail.com> Message-ID: > I think most museums (not just computer-related) could do a lot better in > acting as intermediaries between people who need to "dispose" of items and > those who might want what they have - the museum attitude a lot of the time > is "we don't want that, so we don't care what you do with it," when it's not > really much more effort to say "we don't want it, but we recognise that > these things won't be around forever, and so therefore you could ask here > and here and here..." > > It's not about doing the work of actually finding a home for it, but more > about suggesting places / individuals who might be interested, based upon > experience of the item being offered. Keep in mind there are some ethical issues that start to creep in here that can really complicate things. And where there are ethical issues, there are jerks that have bent these issues and seemingly ruin it for everyone. -- Will From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Sun Oct 17 19:54:46 2010 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2010 19:54:46 -0500 Subject: Tony and museums (was Xerox Alto..) In-Reply-To: <20101017134836.M28278@shell.lmi.net> References: <20101017134836.M28278@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4CBB9AD6.4040304@gmail.com> Fred Cisin wrote: > In USA, it is called a "dimmer switch" and "dual beam", and high beams are > NEVER called "main", possibly due to the likelihood that the clueless will > misinterpret that to mean that they should almost ALWAYS be in the "high" > position. It's just "lights" for dipped beam around here, and "brights" for mains. How widespread that is in the rest of the US (or even this state) I'm not sure; maybe it's just a regional thing. > The filaments in a dual beam "sealed beam" headlight are not individually > replaceable. If you can intercept one being discarded, the use of the > remaining filament makes it a very handy load for power supply testing. Indeed. Plus our local farm supply place sells sealed beam lights cheaply, so there's not likely to be a shortage of them any time soon (well, unless the government makes up put CFLs in our cars ;) > The dimmer switch is now on the steering column in a multi-purpose > combination switch that controls enough things that it is not generally > considered to be repairable, in lieu of replaceable. > I remember when the dimmer switch was a button for the left foot. Yes, our truck has it down by the left foot. On our more modern Toyota it's one of the 'stalks' on the steering column, which is where I've seen it on most vehicles in the last 30 years. JOOI, how many countries other than the US often have vehicles with a parking brake mounted in the front footwell? Almost always on UK vehicles it was between the front seats (where it is on some US vehicles, but not so many). I remember Australia and New Zealand having the same setup as the UK, but I'm not sure what other countries do... cheers Jules From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Sun Oct 17 19:56:52 2010 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2010 19:56:52 -0500 Subject: Tony and museums (was Xerox Alto..) In-Reply-To: <4CBB85CF.6040209@att.net> References: <20101017134836.M28278@shell.lmi.net> <4CBB85CF.6040209@att.net> Message-ID: <4CBB9B54.4090601@gmail.com> steve shumaker wrote: > Ya and frankly wish it were still the case. Every time I try to dim > the lights something else comes on. Never have quite got the hang of > it... lol ...OK 20 lashes for taking things even further off topic! Drifting into talk about cars seems to have been a feature of this list for the fifteen or so years that I've been on it :-) In the 90s there used to be stray gun-related messages too, but those don't seem to put in the appearance that they once did. cheers Jules From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Oct 17 19:55:08 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2010 17:55:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Oldest original proper computer (stored program etc) In-Reply-To: References: <882500AE-2115-47BE-82D1-F2D75D52D201@microspot.co.uk> <20101017101651.233bc7b0.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <4CBABDEF.3060300@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <20101017175332.G28278@shell.lmi.net> On Sun, 17 Oct 2010, William Donzelli wrote: > Has it recently changed hands? "Passed to storage yard owner" sounds a > bit scary (as if someone was not paying rent!). although a rabid hobbyist who owns a storage yard would have a significant advantage over the rest! From shumaker at att.net Sun Oct 17 19:58:19 2010 From: shumaker at att.net (steve shumaker) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2010 17:58:19 -0700 Subject: ProFiles magazine scans. In-Reply-To: References: <83E38F171E7640539ED2B6AAC6BFB406@dell8300> <4CB8D892.3050608@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <4CBB9BAB.5020401@att.net> Gene Do you have a full list of the ProFiles issues that you acquired? I was given a large set of these mags last summer with a KayPro I acquired. I've been planning to scan and post them when the scanning station gets set up again. Overlapping effort is such a waste though... Since there seems to be interest, I could send you anything I have that's not in your list (it's gonna be while before my scanning station is back in action). I have issues from 83 (1), 84(5), 85 (complete year), 86(4), 87(6), and 88(5) and all are in very good condition. Steve On 10/17/2010 4:51 PM, Robert Borsuk wrote: > Gene, > I've never seen these before. I'm not a Kaypro user (none in the collection) but I've owned a couple in the past. > I grabbed the first issue. This looks like it will be a fun read. > Thanks for uploading them. > > Rob > > On Oct 16, 2010, at 12:42 PM, Gene Buckle wrote: > > >> I recently started receiving the contents of a closed CP/M user group. The collection is mostly Kaypro oriented - the first scans I've completed are for ProFiles magazine. >> >> I've scanned 19 issues spanning volumes 1 thru 6, with Vol5 being completed. 25 remain in the collection yet to be scanned - I'll get to those in the coming week or two. >> >> I've taken this as an opportunity to reorganize the documentation section of the retroarchive.org site a bit - It's now split between hardware& software docs instead of being mixed together. >> >> http://www.retroarchive.org >> >> tnx. >> >> g. >> >> >> -- >> Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 >> http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. >> http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project >> >> ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment >> A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. >> http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! >> > Robert Borsuk > rborsuk at colourfull.com > > Colourfull Creations > http://www.colourfull.com > > > > > From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Oct 17 20:00:31 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2010 18:00:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Xerox Alto on ebay (not mine!) In-Reply-To: References: <2D87A355BA8F4253B207AC2D68CA1D30@dell8300> <4CBA3AD4.8090409@30below.com> Message-ID: <20101017175531.R28278@shell.lmi.net> > > The argument of "But there's so much available information now" doesn't mean > > much when access the most comprehensive library of the ancient world > > (Alexandria) evaporated left most people thinking the world is flat for a > > millennium. On Sun, 17 Oct 2010, William Donzelli wrote: > Back then, information just was not viewed as very important at all. > Comparing how people thought back then to how we think now just does > not work well - so much to our very cores is different. In modern times, who has attempted a project on the scope of the Library of Alexandria? I don't know how well they planned against accidental fires, but they were certainly not adequately prepared against military vandalism. > > If people can't access the info, it doesn't do much good - who's > > going to have a working DVD-ROM 1000+ years from now? > In 1000+ years, our tools will have advanced to the point that we > could just ask Machine X to scan the mystery disk in our hand and > figure out what it is. We will have analytical sensors that will look > at every atom of the DVD, and nearly infinite computing power (and AI > that will make us seem as smart as a toadstool) to figure out the > format. Unless the Jihad comes early. But, will the machines care enough to bother analyzing such petroglyphs? Will the machines share the information with the humans? Or, by that time, will the machines have realized the importance of exterminating the biological infestation that came over on the Gogafrincham B Ark? -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Sun Oct 17 20:05:51 2010 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2010 20:05:51 -0500 Subject: Xerox Alto on ebay (not mine!) In-Reply-To: References: <2D87A355BA8F4253B207AC2D68CA1D30@dell8300> <4CBA3AD4.8090409@30below.com> <4CBB96B8.5070700@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4CBB9D6F.30203@gmail.com> William Donzelli wrote: >> I think most museums (not just computer-related) could do a lot better in >> acting as intermediaries between people who need to "dispose" of items and >> those who might want what they have - the museum attitude a lot of the time >> is "we don't want that, so we don't care what you do with it," when it's not >> really much more effort to say "we don't want it, but we recognise that >> these things won't be around forever, and so therefore you could ask here >> and here and here..." >> >> It's not about doing the work of actually finding a home for it, but more >> about suggesting places / individuals who might be interested, based upon >> experience of the item being offered. > > Keep in mind there are some ethical issues that start to creep in here > that can really complicate things. > > And where there are ethical issues, there are jerks that have bent > these issues and seemingly ruin it for everyone. Yes, I don't think museums should be getting deeply involved - but I think any museum should strive to have good relationships with other museums and with the various enthusiast communities, which means it's not too hard for them to reel off a list of alternative places that a person might try when their offer of an item is turned down. Whether the person makes use of that advice is out of their hands, but if there's an aim to preserve history for future generations then it seems better than assuming that the person will do the research themselves, rather than giving up and simply tossing the item. cheers Jules From evan at snarc.net Sun Oct 17 20:07:20 2010 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2010 21:07:20 -0400 Subject: Joining the list In-Reply-To: References: <2E469DC9FC464EA89943699E53B9844E@vl420mt> Message-ID: <4CBB9DC8.40800@snarc.net> >>> legitimate users are being drowned out by the volume of spammers trying to subscribe to the list. Can't that be solved by putting a human verification method (i.e. Captcha) on the subscription page? From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Sun Oct 17 20:14:47 2010 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2010 20:14:47 -0500 Subject: Xerox Alto on ebay (not mine!) In-Reply-To: References: <4CBB94BB.3070803@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4CBB9F87.80206@gmail.com> William Donzelli wrote: >> I don't think that I claimed that it wasn't. My point was >> that it often has a downside when it comes to getting items to people who >> are best capable of preserving them for future generations. > > I assume this is the recurring "deep pocket collectors are not the > best caretakers" issue. > > What evidence do you have? > > I have been knees deep in the antiques trade for quite a few years > now, and this is simply not what I see. You have had different experiences to I, then. I've seen it many a time with vintage computers - items that people have paid good money for, then quickly grown bored of them once they've satisfied a long-term desire to "own one of those", at which point they've relegated the item to storage. When it's "found" again a few years later, they decide that it's too much effort to find a new home for it and, as it doesn't seem important to them, they just dump it. That's not to say that there aren't people with deep pockets who'll do right by an item - of course there are; it's just that an ability to earn money (or be blessed with it) doesn't automatically equate to an ability to look after things :-) cheers Jules From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Oct 17 20:22:05 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2010 21:22:05 -0400 Subject: Xerox Alto on ebay (not mine!) In-Reply-To: <20101017175531.R28278@shell.lmi.net> References: <2D87A355BA8F4253B207AC2D68CA1D30@dell8300> <4CBA3AD4.8090409@30below.com> <20101017175531.R28278@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: > In modern times, who has attempted a project on the scope of the Library > of Alexandria? Google? Library of Congress? Various university libraries? > I don't know how well they planned against accidental fires, but they were > certainly not adequately prepared against military vandalism. Nobody. Except mainframers. -- Will From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Sun Oct 17 20:30:02 2010 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2010 20:30:02 -0500 Subject: Oldest original proper computer (stored program etc) In-Reply-To: <882500AE-2115-47BE-82D1-F2D75D52D201@microspot.co.uk> References: <882500AE-2115-47BE-82D1-F2D75D52D201@microspot.co.uk> Message-ID: <4CBBA31A.4080702@gmail.com> Roger Holmes wrote: > There is an older machine in Australia which was working but apparently it > too is currently has not run for some time. Which one, JOOI? (There was apparently a Marconi TAC at Alice Springs airport, but I'm not sure if it's still there - and even if it is, I doubt it's been run for a long time. That was a late 50s design, but I'm not sure when the Alice Springs system was commissioned) Is your 1301 older than TNMoC's Elliot 803? I'm pretty sure that's 1962, too, but I'm not sure which month... cheers Jules From ken at seefried.com Sun Oct 17 20:47:43 2010 From: ken at seefried.com (Ken Seefried) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 01:47:43 +0000 Subject: Xerox Alto on ebay (not mine!) Message-ID: >(I often think that the downside of ebay is that an item goes to the person > with the deepest pockets, and they're not necessarily the best person to treat > an item nicely)>> >> So eBay is precisely like every other market on the planet.>> >> Shocking. > I don't think that I claimed that it wasn't. My point was >that it often has a downside when it comes to getting items to people who are >best capable of preserving them for future generations. My appologies, Jules. I had taken your comment as Yet Another instance of the weekly "eBay sucks because people pay more than I would and, as a special snowflake Classic Computer person, I'm an authority and anyone who pays more than I would is an idiot" thread, when in reality it was Yet Another instance of the weekly "eBay sucks because anyone who outbids me is certainly almost possibly definately as far as I'm concerned, as a Special Snowflake classic computer person, unworthy to own it" thread. I sometimes lack the patience to keep track of the multitude of ways that list members condescend to the world at large. My bad. From jonnosan at gmail.com Sun Oct 17 16:19:10 2010 From: jonnosan at gmail.com (Jonno Downes) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 08:19:10 +1100 Subject: Tektronix 4023 documentation? Message-ID: I am continuing my exploration of the SacState 8008 boot PROM code (using James Markevitch's listing), and have a little more understanding of the escape codes I was asking about previously (in the thread 'identifying terminal by escape codes') It looks like the SacState machine was built as a card that plugged into a 4023 terminal motherboard. My current assumption is the data going out of the 8008 card (i.e. where the code on the PROM is running) is interacting with the other cards on the 4023 bus directly. My further assumption is that there must have been some kind of block device (tape or disk?) that was also on that same bus, and that some of the escape codes must be doing some sort of device selection (i.e. signalling that the next chunk of data is intended to be read from, or written to, a specific device, not read from keyboard or displayed on screen). I am not clear as to whether the other devices are interfacing via - a commercial 'dedicated' I/O card, e.g. a drive controller (if any existed?) - a commercial 'generic' I/O card, e.g. a serial I/O and an 'intelligent' device is being controlled - a custom made I/O card that plugged directly into the 4023 bus The only 4023 documentation I can find online is the User Manual, which has: - a list of bus signals, which confirm there are enough signals available to construct complex device I/O - a list of accessory cards, including a serial 'Data Communications Interface', a 'hard copy unit', and 'audio recorder card' (tape controller ). - a reference to a 4023 service manual, which has a 'theory of operation' which may describe enough of the bus protocol to work out how the 8008 PROM could be interacting with other devices on that BUS. So my questions are - - were any commercial accessory cards available for the 4023 other than the ones listed in the back of the user manual? If so, does any documentation for them exist? - is the 4023 "service manual" available through any means? Cheers Jonno From jws at jwsss.com Sun Oct 17 17:22:50 2010 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2010 15:22:50 -0700 Subject: Xerox Alto running? Message-ID: <4CBB773A.4010101@jwsss.com> Does anyone have one of these in running (reliable) condition? I found a lot of documentation of an attempt to run one at Digibarn for the 30th anniversary of the Alto, which did not appear to be successful, and that got me to wondering if there was a working one anywhere. Nick would probably be advised to look at that documentation as well as other web pages I've sent him as far as planning what he tries to do with his system. It appears there were maybe 3 sets of spares for the Digibarn one (just from the video) and the photos showed in the background they went from morning light to darkness trying to get it working before giving up. I am not familiar with the person who was trying the bringup, but assuming he was one familiar with the Alto and with all those resources, it says a lot about getting one of these w/o extensive knowledge (true of any vintage system) and trying to bring it up. It's the nature of some designs they always did something you could nurse along to running, and some, perhaps like the Alto may be pumpkins until a lot of things work, and it can be very difficult to figure out if you are damaging them along the course of the effort (2 steps forward 3 back). http://www.digibarn.com/collections/systems/xerox-alto/ From jws at jwsss.com Sun Oct 17 20:41:46 2010 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2010 18:41:46 -0700 Subject: another alto on ebay In-Reply-To: <4CB9CA28.2080707@bitsavers.org> References: <4CB9CA28.2080707@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4CBBA5DA.7020100@jwsss.com> The listing is gone as of 645pm PDT 10/17/2010 On 10/16/2010 8:52 AM, Al Kosssow wrote: > 110599066440 > > Pretty lame listing. No useful pictures. He CLAIMS it is an Alto I, but > you can't tell anything from the listing picture > > > > From jws at jwsss.com Sun Oct 17 20:48:25 2010 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2010 18:48:25 -0700 Subject: Oldest original proper computer (stored program etc) In-Reply-To: References: <882500AE-2115-47BE-82D1-F2D75D52D201@microspot.co.uk> <20101017101651.233bc7b0.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <4CBABDEF.3060300@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <4CBBA769.9090401@jwsss.com> It is the same one, and we (John Bohner and I) are the ones who have it. No further changes of hands. original asking price drifted from $1m to $100k to a negotiated sale by John. I've been helping with research. Also my photos the ones linked to on the wikipedia site. It is in rough condition, but isn't so far gone it would be impossible to make go. Jim On 10/17/2010 5:09 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >> We cannot get on this list yet, but have an LGP-30 and Univac 3 which should >> be operable. Also Minuteman computer is in the collection. >> >> The Univac was removed from operation and stored. Passed to storage yard >> owner, then to our collection. > Was this the one that popped up on Ebay maybe ten years ago? I think > it was stored in trailers in the Midwest. > > Has it recently changed hands? "Passed to storage yard owner" sounds a > bit scary (as if someone was not paying rent!). > > Anyway, I remember that Univac being a bit on the rough side. I lusted > for it for a while. > > -- > Will > > From mark at wickensonline.co.uk Sun Oct 17 15:11:43 2010 From: mark at wickensonline.co.uk (Mark Wickens) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2010 21:11:43 +0100 Subject: Confused by Alpha 433au and SCSI In-Reply-To: <00fe01cb6d38$66146580$323d3080$@ntlworld.com> References: <00fe01cb6d38$66146580$323d3080$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <4CBB587F.2000600@wickensonline.co.uk> On 16/10/10 14:45, Rob Jarratt wrote: > I have a BA356 shelf with a DS-BA35X-FB personality module. The personality > module has two high density connectors on it, I think they are 68-pin. The > pins are too small for me to be able to count them reliably, but the cable > has a 68-pin SCSI Wide connector on the other end. The second connector on > the personality module is not connected to anything, I do not have a > terminator for it and I am unsure if I need one. I have connected this to my > 433au which has a Qlogic QLA1040 SCSI adapter in it. I have been unable to > locate any documentation for either the personality module or the SCSI > adapter. > > I am having problems getting the SRM to recognise the disks in the shelf. > Sometimes it will see no devices at all, not even the CD-ROM connected to > the internal SCSI cable. Other times it will see a ton of disks as shown in > this partial extract from the console: > > >>>> sh dev >>>> > dka0.0.0.1009.0 DKA0 > dka100.1.0.1009.0 DKA100 > dka101.1.0.1009.0 DKA101 > dka103.1.0.1009.0 DKA103 > dka105.1.0.1009.0 DKA105 > dka107.1.0.1009.0 DKA107 > dka1100.11.0.1009.0 DKA1100 > dka1102.11.0.1009.0 DKA1102 > > Just now I tried with one SBB in slot 0 and I got this: > > >>>> sh dev >>>> > dka400.4.0.1009.0 DKA400 MATSHITA CD-ROM CR-508 XS03 > dva0.0.0.0.1 DVA0 > ewa0.0.0.3.0 EWA0 00-00-F8-75-BE-63 > pka0.7.0.1009.0 PKA0 SCSI Bus ID 7 5.57 > pqa0.0.0.4.0 PQA0 PCI EIDE > pqb0.0.1.4.0 PQB0 PCI EIDE > > When I added a second SBB in slot 1 then I got this: > > >>>> sh dev >>>> > waiting for pka0.7.0.1009.0 to poll... > waiting for pka0.7.0.1009.0 to poll... > waiting for pka0.7.0.1009.0 to poll... > dva0.0.0.0.1 DVA0 > ewa0.0.0.3.0 EWA0 00-00-F8-75-BE-63 > pka0.7.0.1009.0 PKA0 SCSI Bus ID 7 5.57 > pqa0.0.0.4.0 PQA0 PCI EIDE > pqb0.0.1.4.0 PQB0 PCI EIDE > >>>> > I am not quite sure what is going on, what the jumpers on the personality > module do, whether I need to insert a terminator on the second personality > module connector, or whether there are some jumpers on the QLA1040 adapter > that need to be set, or is there something else I need to do. > > Anyone have any clues? > > Thanks > > Rob > > Rob, I run a BA356 from my VAX via a personality module with an HD 50 SCSI connector. I don't terminate the pass through connector. I have a 16 bit personality module which has 68 pin HD connectors but have never tried connecting it up. Mark. From mark at wickensonline.co.uk Sun Oct 17 16:33:38 2010 From: mark at wickensonline.co.uk (Mark Wickens) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2010 22:33:38 +0100 Subject: More SCSI Confusion In-Reply-To: <000b01cb6e10$883f6820$98be3860$@ntlworld.com> References: <000301cb6de8$57fefcc0$07fcf640$@ntlworld.com> <000b01cb6e10$883f6820$98be3860$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <4CBB6BB2.1030709@wickensonline.co.uk> On 17/10/10 16:32, Rob Jarratt wrote: > Yes I thought about that and I tried changing it to "on" but it did not make > a difference; and with the "diff" setting it does seem to work, at least > some of the time. > > I also just found out something strange. If I remove any devices with a SCSI > ID numerically lower than the CD-ROM then both the CD-ROM and the higher > HDDs are still seen after the SCSI reset. To prove this I took out DKA600 > and changed the SCSI ID of DKA0 to make it DKA500. This time, after the > reset, it recognised both the CD-ROM (ID 4) and the disk that was at ID 0 > and now was at ID 5. > > Regards > > Rob > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- >> bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Adrian Graham >> Sent: 17 October 2010 15:17 >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >> Subject: Re: More SCSI Confusion >> >> On 17 October 2010 11:44, Rob Jarratt wrote: >> >>>>>> sh pk* >>>>>> >>> pka0_host_id 7 >>> pka0_mode ultra >>> pka0_soft_term diff >>> >> The QLA1040 isn't differential is it? The soft_term should be just 'on' I >> > think. > >> -- >> adrian/witchy >> Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest home computer collection? >> www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk >> > Might be a red herring Rob, but I seem to remember certainly for the BA356 integrated into the Alphaserver 1000A that the enclosure could be operated in a split bus mode where half the enclosure was on one bus and the other half on another. Just a thought (you might want to cross post this to comp.os.vms). Mark. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Oct 17 21:04:12 2010 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2010 20:04:12 -0600 Subject: Xerox Alto on ebay (not mine!) In-Reply-To: <20101017175531.R28278@shell.lmi.net> References: <2D87A355BA8F4253B207AC2D68CA1D30@dell8300> <4CBA3AD4.8090409@30below.com> <20101017175531.R28278@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4CBBAB1C.2060609@jetnet.ab.ca> > But, > will the machines care enough to bother analyzing such petroglyphs? > Will the machines share the information with the humans? Or, by that > time, will the machines have realized the importance of exterminating the > biological infestation that came over on the Gogafrincham B Ark? I think i'll just clean my phone once a year ... everybody else most likely will buy a clean NEW phone every year ... > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com > PS.. I thought they only built one ark. From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Sun Oct 17 21:11:53 2010 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2010 21:11:53 -0500 Subject: Xerox Alto on ebay (not mine!) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CBBACE9.5070102@gmail.com> Ken Seefried wrote: >> (I often think that the downside of ebay is that an item goes to the >> person > with the deepest pockets, and they're not necessarily the best >> person to treat > an item nicely)>> >> So eBay is precisely like every >> other market on the planet.>> >> Shocking. > >> I don't think that I claimed that it wasn't. My point was >that it often >> has a downside when it comes to getting items to people who are >best >> capable of preserving them for future generations. > > My appologies, Jules. > > I had taken your comment as Yet Another instance of the weekly "eBay sucks > because people pay more than I would and, as a special snowflake Classic > Computer person, I'm an authority and anyone who pays more than I would is > an idiot" thread, when in reality it was Yet Another instance of the weekly > "eBay sucks because anyone who outbids me is certainly almost possibly > definately as far as I'm concerned, as a Special Snowflake classic computer > person, unworthy to own it" thread. I sometimes lack the patience to keep > track of the multitude of ways that list members condescend to the world at > large. You're wrong again, because I've never bought anything on ebay, and so therefore have never been outbid on anything :P Do you really believe that there aren't people out there who buy things on the spur of the moment, simply because they can, and because the "ooh, shiny!" factor comes into play? In fact, I suspect that the majority of us have bought things (shiny or otherwise) on a whim before, and subsequently tucked them away out of sight or eventually thrown them away - all that varies is the deepness of the pockets :-) cheers Jules From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Oct 17 21:23:38 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2010 19:23:38 -0700 Subject: Babbage Analytical Engine - CBC interview In-Reply-To: References: <4CBA5BEC.0@30below.com> <20101016194530.K96679@shell.lmi.net> <4CBAE94E.30431.D395A6@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4CBBAFAA.1040904@brouhaha.com> William Donzelli wrote: > With one big difference - it was basically unbuildable by the British > machinists of the time. That was the conventional wisdom, but has since been disproven by the Science Museum in London. They measured the tolerances that Joseph Clement achieved in the working models of the arithmetic mechanisms of the DE#1 that he built for Babbage, and deliberately built a DE#2 using parts machined to comparable tolerances and got it to work. Unbuildable by *average* British machinists of the time, quite likely, but Babbage didn't try to have it built by an average machinist. Eric From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Oct 17 21:27:57 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2010 19:27:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Xerox Alto on ebay (not mine!) In-Reply-To: References: <2D87A355BA8F4253B207AC2D68CA1D30@dell8300> <4CBA3AD4.8090409@30below.com> <20101017175531.R28278@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20101017192445.A28278@shell.lmi.net> > > In modern times, who has attempted a project on the scope of the Library > > of Alexandria? On Sun, 17 Oct 2010, William Donzelli wrote: > Google? Library of Congress? Various university libraries? I don't have the numbers to argue it, but my impression was that the library of Alexandria was a committment of a much higher percentage of the available resources than any of those. If so, then it was "relatively" larger (although admittedly smaller absolute size). -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From teoz at neo.rr.com Sun Oct 17 21:32:02 2010 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2010 22:32:02 -0400 Subject: Xerox Alto on ebay (not mine!) References: <4CBBACE9.5070102@gmail.com> Message-ID: <77168D1838FF43D089771E89240E16A3@dell8300> If it was up to some people on this list nothing x86 would live to see a museum because they are unworthy. You don't need military vandalism to accomplish what a recycler can easily do. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Oct 17 21:35:45 2010 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2010 20:35:45 -0600 Subject: Babbage Analytical Engine - CBC interview In-Reply-To: <4CBBAFAA.1040904@brouhaha.com> References: <4CBA5BEC.0@30below.com> <20101016194530.K96679@shell.lmi.net> <4CBAE94E.30431.D395A6@cclist.sydex.com> <4CBBAFAA.1040904@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4CBBB281.70205@jetnet.ab.ca> On 17/10/2010 8:23 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > William Donzelli wrote: >> With one big difference - it was basically unbuildable by the British >> machinists of the time. > That was the conventional wisdom, but has since been disproven by the > Science Museum in London. They measured the tolerances that Joseph > Clement achieved in the working models of the arithmetic mechanisms of > the DE#1 that he built for Babbage, and deliberately built a DE#2 using > parts machined to comparable tolerances and got it to work. I suspect it comes under *mass production * of parts all the same quality. That did not come about until the late 19 th century. Also I think I read that it was common to have errors in blue prints of the time, so industrial theft would be harder to achieve. > Unbuildable by *average* British machinists of the time, quite likely, > but Babbage didn't try to have it built by an average machinist. Ben. From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Oct 17 21:37:57 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2010 22:37:57 -0400 Subject: Babbage Analytical Engine - CBC interview In-Reply-To: <4CBBAFAA.1040904@brouhaha.com> References: <4CBA5BEC.0@30below.com> <20101016194530.K96679@shell.lmi.net> <4CBAE94E.30431.D395A6@cclist.sydex.com> <4CBBAFAA.1040904@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: > That was the conventional wisdom, but has since been disproven by the > Science Museum in London. ?They measured the tolerances that Joseph Clement > achieved in the working models of the arithmetic mechanisms of the DE#1 that > he built for Babbage, and deliberately built a DE#2 using parts machined to > comparable tolerances and got it to work. > > Unbuildable by *average* British machinists of the time, quite likely, but > Babbage didn't try to have it built by an average machinist. That may be true, but pissing off one of the very few capable machinists in Britain was kind of a show stopper. If Babbage was in Germany or Switzerland or the US, he could have pissed off a whole line of capable machinists, and there would be still more to pick from - and maybe the machine actually finished. -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Oct 17 21:42:30 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2010 22:42:30 -0400 Subject: Xerox Alto on ebay (not mine!) In-Reply-To: <20101017192445.A28278@shell.lmi.net> References: <2D87A355BA8F4253B207AC2D68CA1D30@dell8300> <4CBA3AD4.8090409@30below.com> <20101017175531.R28278@shell.lmi.net> <20101017192445.A28278@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: > I don't have the numbers to argue it, but my impression was that the > library of Alexandria was a committment of a much higher percentage of the > available resources than any of those. ?If so, then it was "relatively" > larger (although admittedly smaller absolute size). Most archaeologists seem to agree - the holdings of most of the ancient libraries was 95 percent crap - bad poetry and horrid prose. -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Oct 17 21:44:53 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2010 22:44:53 -0400 Subject: Oldest original proper computer (stored program etc) In-Reply-To: <4CBBA769.9090401@jwsss.com> References: <882500AE-2115-47BE-82D1-F2D75D52D201@microspot.co.uk> <20101017101651.233bc7b0.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <4CBABDEF.3060300@jwsss.com> <4CBBA769.9090401@jwsss.com> Message-ID: > original asking price drifted from $1m to $100k to a negotiated sale by > John. ?I've been helping with research. ?Also my photos the ones linked to > on the wikipedia site. So there was a middleman somewhere? I remember the final hammer price of the machine was about $10-12K (a couple of times). -- Will From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Oct 17 21:48:54 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2010 19:48:54 -0700 Subject: Babbage Analytical Engine - CBC interview In-Reply-To: <4CBBB281.70205@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4CBA5BEC.0@30below.com> <20101016194530.K96679@shell.lmi.net> <4CBAE94E.30431.D395A6@cclist.sydex.com> <4CBBAFAA.1040904@brouhaha.com> <4CBBB281.70205@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4CBBB596.5040809@brouhaha.com> ben wrote: > I suspect it comes under *mass production * of parts all the same > quality. That did not come about until the late 19 th century. Joseph Clement's work shows that he was able to achieve that in the early 19th century. It didn't become standard practice until later. The fact that most people couldn't build a working Difference Engine or Analytical Engine in the 19th century doesn't prove that it couldn't have been done by someone, such as Clement. The reasons that Babbage didn't get a working DE or AE built are financial and political, not technical. By 1859 Georg Scheutz had built several working DEs based on Babbage's design. Eric From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Oct 17 22:01:44 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2010 20:01:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Xerox Alto on ebay (not mine!) In-Reply-To: <4CBBAB1C.2060609@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <2D87A355BA8F4253B207AC2D68CA1D30@dell8300> <4CBA3AD4.8090409@30below.com> <20101017175531.R28278@shell.lmi.net> <4CBBAB1C.2060609@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <20101017195900.L28278@shell.lmi.net> > > will the machines care enough to bother analyzing such petroglyphs? > > Will the machines share the information with the humans? Or, by that > > time, will the machines have realized the importance of exterminating the > > biological infestation that came over on the Gogafrincham B Ark? On Sun, 17 Oct 2010, ben wrote: > I think i'll just clean my phone once a year ... > everybody else most likely will buy a clean NEW phone every year ... > PS.. I thought they only built one ark. Once they had built and launched the B ark (the FIRST one), they settled in and libed gappily ever after, until they were all wiped out by a virulent phone plague. (or was it a giant mutant space goat?) From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Oct 17 22:03:49 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2010 20:03:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Xerox Alto on ebay (not mine!) In-Reply-To: <77168D1838FF43D089771E89240E16A3@dell8300> References: <4CBBACE9.5070102@gmail.com> <77168D1838FF43D089771E89240E16A3@dell8300> Message-ID: <20101017200233.C28278@shell.lmi.net> On Sun, 17 Oct 2010, Teo Zenios wrote: > If it was up to some people on this list nothing x86 would live to see a > museum because they are unworthy. You don't need military vandalism to > accomplish what a recycler can easily do. To misquote Liddy: "Never rely on malice for what can be easily accomplished by incompetence." From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Oct 17 22:13:27 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2010 23:13:27 -0400 Subject: Babbage Analytical Engine - CBC interview In-Reply-To: <4CBBB596.5040809@brouhaha.com> References: <4CBA5BEC.0@30below.com> <20101016194530.K96679@shell.lmi.net> <4CBAE94E.30431.D395A6@cclist.sydex.com> <4CBBAFAA.1040904@brouhaha.com> <4CBBB281.70205@jetnet.ab.ca> <4CBBB596.5040809@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: > Joseph Clement's work shows that he was able to achieve that in the early > 19th century. ?It didn't become standard practice until later. Real mass production? Enough to make a full Engine without having to pick and choose parts to get them all to work? The US armories were making pretty good guns with real interchangeable parts during this period, with the technology becoming child's play by the mid century. The same can not be said about the British armories. Guns and clocks are remarkably handy items for benchmarking mechanical technology. Two very different mass produced precision machines, basically. -- Will From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Sun Oct 17 22:30:28 2010 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2010 22:30:28 -0500 Subject: Xerox Alto on ebay (not mine!) In-Reply-To: <77168D1838FF43D089771E89240E16A3@dell8300> References: <4CBBACE9.5070102@gmail.com> <77168D1838FF43D089771E89240E16A3@dell8300> Message-ID: <4CBBBF54.7090101@gmail.com> Teo Zenios wrote: > If it was up to some people on this list nothing x86 would live to see a > museum because they are unworthy. You don't need military vandalism to > accomplish what a recycler can easily do. Not just people, but I think that's a trap that museums can easily fall into, too - that what is or was commonplace can be seen as mundane and boring and yes, "not worthy". Museums can't afford to collect everything, and so it's those things which fall by the wayside, and there's a danger of there being a real gap 20 or 30 years down the line. I'm glad that I've bumped into a few people that collect the sort of dot matrix printers common in the 80s, for instance. I don't think many people find them interesting, but I'm glad that there are people hoarding them, because otherwise they might be a very rare sight indeed in a few decades' time. (I remember about 5 years ago trying to amass a collection of 486 PCs for a project. It was a bit of an eye-opener, and I gave up after a few months - it was just too difficult. They were long-gone to the crusher from offices, and individuals hadn't retained them as they had other systems because they had no nostalgia or "coolness factor") cheers Jules From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Sun Oct 17 22:31:31 2010 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2010 22:31:31 -0500 Subject: Xerox Alto on ebay (not mine!) In-Reply-To: <20101017195900.L28278@shell.lmi.net> References: <2D87A355BA8F4253B207AC2D68CA1D30@dell8300> <4CBA3AD4.8090409@30below.com> <20101017175531.R28278@shell.lmi.net> <4CBBAB1C.2060609@jetnet.ab.ca> <20101017195900.L28278@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4CBBBF93.5090705@gmail.com> Fred Cisin wrote: >> PS.. I thought they only built one ark. > > Once they had built and launched the B ark (the FIRST one), they settled > in and libed gappily ever after, until they were all wiped out by a > virulent phone plague. > (or was it a giant mutant space goat?) They should have just put a Tardis in the first one. From mikelee at tdh.com Sun Oct 17 23:50:51 2010 From: mikelee at tdh.com (Michael Lee) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2010 23:50:51 -0500 Subject: Xerox Alto on ebay (not mine!) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CBBD22B.9040802@tdh.com> On 10/13/2010 12:16 PM, Richard wrote: > Current bidding is $560, I'm expecting it to sell for $750 at a > minimum, maybe $1000+ once the snipers have their say. As the auction is now over, apparently it is worth just over $30,000 to the right bidder whomever that may be. Not quite the millions a painting by a famous artist might be, but definitely not a small chunk of change. With that said, paintings and artwork can end up in private hands or in museums, and so will other various "artifacts" including computers. From curt at atarimuseum.com Mon Oct 18 00:01:46 2010 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 01:01:46 -0400 Subject: Xerox Alto on ebay (not mine!) In-Reply-To: <4CBBD22B.9040802@tdh.com> References: <4CBBD22B.9040802@tdh.com> Message-ID: <4CBBD4BA.5010708@atarimuseum.com> Sure... look at the painting just recently found in upstate New York, apparently it was knocked off the wall many years back and fell behind the couch where it stayed the whole time to only be found just recently and may be worth over $1 million.... Michael Lee wrote: > On 10/13/2010 12:16 PM, Richard wrote: >> Current bidding is $560, I'm expecting it to sell for $750 at a >> minimum, maybe $1000+ once the snipers have their say. > > As the auction is now over, apparently it is worth just over $30,000 > to the right bidder whomever that may be. Not quite the millions a > painting by a famous artist might be, but definitely not a small chunk > of change. With that said, paintings and artwork can end up in > private hands or in museums, and so will other various "artifacts" > including computers. > From teoz at neo.rr.com Mon Oct 18 00:07:47 2010 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 01:07:47 -0400 Subject: Xerox Alto on ebay (not mine!) References: <4CBBD22B.9040802@tdh.com> Message-ID: <4CCD68D2A3124C2BB04E080C429FDE95@dell8300> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Lee" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Monday, October 18, 2010 12:50 AM Subject: Re: Xerox Alto on ebay (not mine!) > On 10/13/2010 12:16 PM, Richard wrote: >> Current bidding is $560, I'm expecting it to sell for $750 at a >> minimum, maybe $1000+ once the snipers have their say. > > As the auction is now over, apparently it is worth just over $30,000 to > the right bidder whomever that may be. Not quite the millions a painting > by a famous artist might be, but definitely not a small chunk of change. > With that said, paintings and artwork can end up in private hands or in > museums, and so will other various "artifacts" including computers. And a much more recent and equally rare 3dfx Voodoo 6000 AGP video card (never released maybe a few dozen around) sold for $3,000 or 1/10th the Alto price. We had a tech bubble, housing bubble, and now we are going to have a collectable computer bubble (all that 0% interest money has to go somewhere). Out of curiosity how many people here are planning on cashing in? From mikelee at tdh.com Mon Oct 18 00:22:08 2010 From: mikelee at tdh.com (Michael Lee) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 00:22:08 -0500 Subject: Xerox Alto on ebay (not mine!) In-Reply-To: <4CBBD4BA.5010708@atarimuseum.com> References: <4CBBD22B.9040802@tdh.com> <4CBBD4BA.5010708@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <4CBBD980.1010600@tdh.com> On 10/18/2010 12:01 AM, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > Sure... look at the painting just recently found in upstate New York, > apparently it was knocked off the wall many years back and fell behind > the couch where it stayed the whole time to only be found just > recently and may be worth over $1 million.... Though the other thing with "collectable" computers is generally the collectors' value is still less than things originally cost, at least for now. Note I did say generally, there are many exceptions, but more often than not, things are just reaching the original cost. From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Oct 18 00:22:40 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2010 22:22:40 -0700 Subject: Babbage Analytical Engine - CBC interview In-Reply-To: References: <4CBA5BEC.0@30below.com> <20101016194530.K96679@shell.lmi.net> <4CBAE94E.30431.D395A6@cclist.sydex.com> <4CBBAFAA.1040904@brouhaha.com> <4CBBB281.70205@jetnet.ab.ca> <4CBBB596.5040809@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4CBBD9A0.7070100@brouhaha.com> I wrote: > Joseph Clement's work shows that he was able to achieve that in the early > 19th century. It didn't become standard practice until later. William Donzelli wrote: > Real mass production? Enough to make a full Engine without having to > pick and choose parts to get them all to work? Yes, the evidence is that he was able to repeatably produce parts to very tight tolerances. One of the things he is famous for is having built his own precision machine tools for that purpose. He received awards for his improvements to the lathe. He advocated the standardization of screw threads, and his journeyman Joseph Whitworth developed the first standard screw thread. Eric From mikelee at tdh.com Mon Oct 18 00:28:40 2010 From: mikelee at tdh.com (Michael Lee) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 00:28:40 -0500 Subject: AT&T 3B1 Boot PROM and system software images? In-Reply-To: <4CBB7EDE.70407@neurotica.com> References: <4CBB7C9A.4060804@philpem.me.uk> <4CBB7EDE.70407@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4CBBDB08.8070101@tdh.com> On 10/17/2010 5:55 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > > I've not imaged the ROMs, but will do so if they're socketed, after > our big yard sale this weekend. (I should be able to reach my 3B1 > then) That is, if nobody else has gotten to it by then. I don't have the means to image them, but I do have a pile of 3b1/Unix PC motherboards laying in a pile if anyone is willing to do it, I'll just send the whole board over. Not sure anymore, but I do recall a PAL or two and a ROM. Most were socketed if I recall. From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Mon Oct 18 00:53:18 2010 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 06:53:18 +0100 Subject: Joining the list In-Reply-To: <4CBB9DC8.40800@snarc.net> References: <2E469DC9FC464EA89943699E53B9844E@vl420mt> <4CBB9DC8.40800@snarc.net> Message-ID: <003101cb6e88$c7d60250$578206f0$@ntlworld.com> Captchas can also be attacked, but I am pretty sure that requiring a captcha before going to a real person for final verification would significantly reduce the volume of work. Regards Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Evan Koblentz > Sent: 18 October 2010 02:07 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Joining the list > > >>> legitimate users are being drowned out by the volume of spammers > trying to subscribe to the list. > > Can't that be solved by putting a human verification method (i.e. > Captcha) on the subscription page? From jws at jwsss.com Sun Oct 17 23:09:56 2010 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2010 21:09:56 -0700 Subject: Xerox Alto aution Message-ID: <4CBBC894.4020502@jwsss.com> Mr 1519 approval rating bid $30,100 as a snipe. At least it wasn't a 0 feedback ID that did it. Things really took of in the last 5 minutes with the winning bidder having a true snipe. Anyone on the list the winner? The other Alto thread is useless, nothing about Alto's so starting a new thread here about this sale, also on topic to discuss what happened to the short lived auction for the alto from DC. Was that one fraud, or stupidity? In advance change the thread title if you hijack it, please. Jim From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Oct 18 01:49:25 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 02:49:25 -0400 Subject: Joining the list In-Reply-To: References: <2E469DC9FC464EA89943699E53B9844E@vl420mt> Message-ID: <4CBBEDF5.7040507@neurotica.com> On 10/17/10 12:14 PM, Gene Buckle wrote: > This system works really well for the 80sBBS list I work with at Yahoo!. Urr? 80sBBS list? What sort of stuff is covered there? I mean, sure, "80's BBSs of course", but...reunions with other former BBSers, discussions about software, recreations, what? I was a HUGE BBSer back in those days; I ran a small RCP/M system in NJ and was all over the place with the fat phone bill. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Mon Oct 18 03:37:07 2010 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 10:37:07 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Joining the list In-Reply-To: References: <2E469DC9FC464EA89943699E53B9844E@vl420mt> Message-ID: On Sun, 17 Oct 2010, Gene Buckle wrote: > From what Jay has told me, the spammers applying to the list is what > locked it down in the first place and he's unable to keep up with the number > of sub requests. Essentially, legitimate users are being drowned out by the > volume of spammers trying to subscribe to the list. That's nonsense, since there are free and very good solutions against spam since many years now. If you run your site with Postfix configured to reject mails from unresolvable and inexistant client and from addresses, this will bring down your spam volume to about the half. And then add SpamAssassin to scan the other mails, you can practically forget the spam issue. Just add ClamAV, and you don't even have to bother about viruses. You would be surprised. I've never undestood why site maintainers complain about these issues despite the available means to fight against them. Christian From dgari at msn.com Mon Oct 18 03:42:24 2010 From: dgari at msn.com (David Gari) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 01:42:24 -0700 Subject: CompuPro CPU-Z with IMSAI and Front Panel issues In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I may be able to help. I've worked for Morrow Designs (Thinker Toys), Wordstar (MicroPro) and Stoneware (DBMaster). Yes, I am older than Godbout. I have pwned two Altairs and an IMSAI. I took a tour of the giant (empty) Cromemco facility back in the day. Sooo much promise. So sad. If you send me full specs, a case of Seagram's 7, and a detailed symptom of the problem, I will try to help. dgari at msn dot com > Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2010 08:09:22 -0700 (PDT) > From: Scott LaBombard > Subject: Re: CompuPro CPU-Z with IMSAI and Front Panel issues > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Message-ID: <828014.33056.qm at web110803.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > ----- Original Message ---- > > > From: Nick Allen > > > > Anyone have any experience getting the front panel of an IMSAI computer to work > >with a CompuPro CPU-Z S100 board? > > I read the documentation > >(http://maben.homeip.net/static/S100/compupro/cards/CompuPro%20CPU-Z.pdf), and > >there > > seems some configuration required, I obviously am missing something as it is > >not working properly even after I attempt > > the config in the documentation. > > > > Hi Nick, > > Assuming that you followed the 'Imsai Front Panel Usage' section in the > referenced document, I would also take a look > at S100 bus pins 54 and 20. I haven't touched any of my Imsai's in several > years, but I do recall struggling to get a > CompuPro motherboard working with the front panel. If memory serves, at a > minimum I had to cut the trace leading to > pin 54 (External/Slave Clear) on the front panel PCB itself. I noticed in the > CPU-Z schematic that it is indeed driving > pin 54 on the bus, so that may well be the issue. > > As for pin 20, it is GROUND in the IEEE 696 spec. I can't tell if the CPU-Z is > driving that pin on the bus or not... if it > is, you may want to cut the trace leading to it on the front panel board as > well. > > I have additional notes re. another potential additional change that may be > required (somewhere) ...I'll attempt to find > them. In the mean time, I would try the pin 54 mod first, and then add the pin > 20 mod if necessary. > > > Scott From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Mon Oct 18 03:43:21 2010 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 10:43:21 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Joining the list In-Reply-To: <4CBB9DC8.40800@snarc.net> References: <2E469DC9FC464EA89943699E53B9844E@vl420mt> <4CBB9DC8.40800@snarc.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 17 Oct 2010, Evan Koblentz wrote: > Can't that be solved by putting a human verification method (i.e. Captcha) on > the subscription page? Only clueless people use something like Captcha. You don't need this if you have a properly configured mail system. Christian From spedraja at gmail.com Mon Oct 18 01:30:54 2010 From: spedraja at gmail.com (SPC) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 08:30:54 +0200 Subject: The MERT Operating System and the 3B20D Message-ID: A comment from MrBill about the *Bell System Technical Journal online*website make me review the last issues of this magazine in PDF available there. The volume 62 issue 1 talks about the MERT Operating System. What's about this OS and platform (3B20D) ? Something availble ? Emulation/Emulators in project or even possible to do ? Sergio 2010/10/18 Bill Bradford > The telecom nerd in me just exploded. > > Bell System Technical Journal, 1922-1983. > > http://bstj.bell-labs.com/ > > -- > Bill Bradford > Houston, Texas > _______________________________________________ > GEEKS: http://www.sunhelp.org/mailman/listinfo/geeks > From spedraja at gmail.com Mon Oct 18 01:33:56 2010 From: spedraja at gmail.com (SPC) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 08:33:56 +0200 Subject: The MERT Operating System and the 3B20D In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Opps... sorry, sorry, for the crossposting in the bottom of my previous message. I've tried to back it but my finger betrayed me :-( Sergio 2010/10/18 SPC > A comment from MrBill about the *Bell System Technical Journal online*website make me review the last issues of this magazine in PDF available > there. The volume 62 issue 1 talks about the MERT Operating System. What's > about this OS and platform (3B20D) ? Something availble ? > Emulation/Emulators in project or even possible to do ? > > Sergio > > From roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk Mon Oct 18 06:18:11 2010 From: roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk (Roger Holmes) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 12:18:11 +0100 Subject: Xerox Alto on ebay (not mine!) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3CEF12F8-1DA5-401D-8CEE-941A7CF719E9@microspot.co.uk> > Emulators are great for a lot > of things (offtopically, especially running WinXP in a sandbox) but > aren't nearly so helpful when trying to get original hardware working > again... I have to disagree. Only last Wednesday I was single shotting my simulator and the real hardware to find where they diverged. It showed up the fault after a few hundred instructions instead of running for a half a second before crashing (by which I mean the hardware stopping because it detected the loading of an instruction where one of the digits was not binary coded decimal). I am also working on a deeper simulator which models the actual gates of the computer and their interconnections. The source code of this describes the computer in great detail and I would say would be better than real hardware from some purposes. It will also allow monitoring of signals with a virtual oscilloscope and maybe one day, the introduction of simulated faults to test the brains of anyone mad enough to want to see how the original engineers would tackle faults. One day it might even have a 3D graphical interface where you can walk around the machine, open covers and connect your virtual 'scope and the original sounds recorded from the real hardware, like the drum running up. Roger Holmes ICT 1301 + many Apples - ][, ///, Lisa, and Mac up to the latest MacBook Pro. From binarydinosaurs at gmail.com Mon Oct 18 06:21:38 2010 From: binarydinosaurs at gmail.com (Adrian Graham) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 12:21:38 +0100 Subject: More SCSI Confusion In-Reply-To: <001b01cb6e43$c7a16b20$56e44160$@ntlworld.com> References: <000301cb6de8$57fefcc0$07fcf640$@ntlworld.com> <001b01cb6e43$c7a16b20$56e44160$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: On 17 October 2010 22:39, Rob Jarratt wrote: > The card is a KZPBA-CX. Web searches would indicate that this is really the > same as the -CA model. I tried it in two different PCI slots. In the > behaviour was exactly the same and in the other it failed to be recognised > by the SRM. Thanks for the link to the manual, I will study it carefully. I know the KZPBA-CX (and its differential cousin the CY) far too well for my own good :) I've never successfully used both internal and external ports even though the card itself is supposed to auto detect and either do a soft term or not depending on what's connected to it. I've had a LOT of problems with the internal SCSI cable on the 433 and 500, pka0_soft_term should just be 'on' so if you're having issues it's either the card or the cable. Other thing to check is that your devices aren't terminated themselves, providing TERM PWR is fine but not actual termination. -- adrian/witchy Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest home computer collection? www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk From roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk Mon Oct 18 06:27:08 2010 From: roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk (Roger Holmes) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 12:27:08 +0100 Subject: Oldest original proper computer (stored program etc) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2373AF83-7704-43F9-922C-65D85BFBC094@microspot.co.uk> > From: Jochen Kunz > >> I'm not counting the Zuse in Germany as its not a stored program >> machine, and anyway I'm not sure if it is a replica or the original. > What Zuse you are refering to? There are "many". > > The Z22 at the ZKM sholud be complete and and operable. (If the people > at the ZKM have not ruined the machine meanwhile.) It is tube based and > was build 1958. It is a stored program machine for sure. Main memory is > a drum with 8192 words. It is original and has been kept in working > condition most if its lifetime. I was referring to a wartime machine, I think it was Z4 with external tape program. As far I recall it can't do loops and uses relay logic. More of a programmable calculator than a computer. Any idea how often Z22 is actually powered up and run? I must read up on it. Thanks for replying. Roger Holmes. From roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk Mon Oct 18 06:58:00 2010 From: roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk (Roger Holmes) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 12:58:00 +0100 Subject: Oldest original proper computer (stored program etc) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8A7F40FF-B216-422C-92B8-E2C777C24F44@microspot.co.uk> > From: Christian Corti > > On Sat, 16 Oct 2010, Roger Holmes wrote: >> don't believe its true, I was told my machine is currently the oldest >> original working computer. Not counting replicas or machines which don't >> have stored programs. My machine was installed in 1962 (and designed in >> the late 1950s). > > Then you've been told wrong. > Several examples: > - Our LGP-30 ser.no. 4, built 1958, still working with peripherals. Just > yesterday I've had a group of visitors. It's been designed around 1954. > - The IBM 650 of the IBM Museum in Sindelfingen (working) > - The Zuse Z22 ser.no. 13 in Karlsruhe, also built around 1958 (apparently > still working, although the ZKM is not the right place for it IMHO) > All are original first generation machines, and all of them are in > southern Germany. > >> restored was first installed in 1964. Are there other? I'm not counting >> the Zuse in Germany as its not a stored program machine, and anyway I'm >> not sure if it is a replica or the original. It is surprising if it >> survived the extensive bombing by the USAF and RAF during WW2 unless it >> was stored in a bunker/cave/mine. > > What Zuse are you talking about? The Z3 has been destroyed, yes, and > rebuilt by Zuse in 1962. Thank you, this is just the information I wanted. Is the Z3 stored program? Turing complete? If it is, then it would be useful to know when the rebuilt version became operational, though I'm not actually sure the actual month my machine went live either. Assuming for now that Z3 is not stored program, than my list so far is: 1958, LGP-30 1958, Zuse Z22 Somewhere between 1954 and 1962, IBM 650 1962 ICT 1301 serial no 6 (SO FAR the earliest surviving machine with random access program and data storage. i.e. Core and called Immediate Access Store by ICT). Thanks again. I expect the chaps in the states will tell me of several more when I catch up with my e-mails. From pat at computer-refuge.org Mon Oct 18 07:53:12 2010 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 08:53:12 -0400 Subject: Joining the list In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201010180853.12416.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Monday, October 18, 2010, Christian Corti wrote: > On Sun, 17 Oct 2010, Gene Buckle wrote: > > From what Jay has told me, the spammers applying to the list is > > what locked it down in the first place and he's unable to keep up > > with the number of sub requests. Essentially, legitimate users > > are being drowned out by the volume of spammers trying to > > subscribe to the list. > > That's nonsense, since there are free and very good solutions against > spam since many years now. If you run your site with Postfix > configured to reject mails from unresolvable and inexistant client > and from addresses, this will bring down your spam volume to about > the half. And then add SpamAssassin to scan the other mails, you can > practically forget the spam issue. Just add ClamAV, and you don't > even have to bother about viruses. You would be surprised. I've > never undestood why site maintainers complain about these issues > despite the available means to fight against them. That's not the entire problem. Part of it is people [spammers] subscribing to the list to try to harvest email addresses from the mail sent out by the list. How is spamassassin going to help with that? Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From oltmansg at bellsouth.net Mon Oct 18 08:11:11 2010 From: oltmansg at bellsouth.net (Geoff Oltmans) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 08:11:11 -0500 Subject: Xerox Alto on ebay (not mine!) In-Reply-To: <3CEF12F8-1DA5-401D-8CEE-941A7CF719E9@microspot.co.uk> References: <3CEF12F8-1DA5-401D-8CEE-941A7CF719E9@microspot.co.uk> Message-ID: <023864C0-91AA-4726-920C-F0BEACDD791F@bellsouth.net> I agree with your disagreement. :) While an emulator may not give you 100% insight into a hardware problem, it can nevertheless be useful in pointing you in the right direction. On Oct 18, 2010, at 6:18 AM, Roger Holmes wrote: > >> Emulators are great for a lot >> of things (offtopically, especially running WinXP in a sandbox) but >> aren't nearly so helpful when trying to get original hardware working >> again... > > > I have to disagree. Only last Wednesday I was single shotting my simulator and the real hardware to find where they diverged. It showed up the fault after a few hundred instructions instead of running for a half a second before crashing (by which I mean the hardware stopping because it detected the loading of an instruction where one of the digits was not binary coded decimal). > > I am also working on a deeper simulator which models the actual gates of the computer and their interconnections. The source code of this describes the computer in great detail and I would say would be better than real hardware from some purposes. It will also allow monitoring of signals with a virtual oscilloscope and maybe one day, the introduction of simulated faults to test the brains of anyone mad enough to want to see how the original engineers would tackle faults. One day it might even have a 3D graphical interface where you can walk around the machine, open covers and connect your virtual 'scope and the original sounds recorded from the real hardware, like the drum running up. > > Roger Holmes > ICT 1301 + many Apples - ][, ///, Lisa, and Mac up to the latest MacBook Pro. From christian_liendo at yahoo.com Mon Oct 18 08:13:23 2010 From: christian_liendo at yahoo.com (Christian Liendo) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 06:13:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: What would facebook be like in 1984 In-Reply-To: <023864C0-91AA-4726-920C-F0BEACDD791F@bellsouth.net> Message-ID: <319909.28071.qm@web113506.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> http://8bitaficionado.com/2010/10/18/what-would-facebook-be-like-in-1984/ An artist did a rendition of what facebook would be like in 1984, I am trying to figure what what computer is used in the picture From dseagrav at lunar-tokyo.net Mon Oct 18 08:13:51 2010 From: dseagrav at lunar-tokyo.net (Daniel Seagraves) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 08:13:51 -0500 Subject: Joining the list In-Reply-To: <201010180853.12416.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <201010180853.12416.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: On Oct 18, 2010, at 7:53 AM, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > On Monday, October 18, 2010, Christian Corti wrote: >> On Sun, 17 Oct 2010, Gene Buckle wrote: >>> From what Jay has told me, the spammers applying to the list is >>> what locked it down in the first place and he's unable to keep up >>> with the number of sub requests. Essentially, legitimate users >>> are being drowned out by the volume of spammers trying to >>> subscribe to the list. >> >> That's nonsense, since there are free and very good solutions against >> spam since many years now. If you run your site with Postfix >> configured to reject mails from unresolvable and inexistant client >> and from addresses, this will bring down your spam volume to about >> the half. And then add SpamAssassin to scan the other mails, you can >> practically forget the spam issue. Just add ClamAV, and you don't >> even have to bother about viruses. You would be surprised. I've >> never undestood why site maintainers complain about these issues >> despite the available means to fight against them. > > That's not the entire problem. Part of it is people [spammers] > subscribing to the list to try to harvest email addresses from the mail > sent out by the list. How is spamassassin going to help with that? News Flash: They're harvesting all our addresses already simply by crawling the web-based archives. Their address harvesters are smart enough to read addresses obfuscated by typing the word "at" instead of @ or "dot" instead of a period. They can even read emails stored as images by simply OCRing the image. They have million-node botnets that do this 24/7. CAPTCHAs are no problem for spammers either. They simply set of "free porn" sites where unsuspecting humans solve them in exchange for porn. Other spammers simply hire cheap labor and have the workers solve them for a few pennies an hour. There is no technical measure you can take that they can't defeat. Spam makes up over 75% of all email sent worldwide. As long as spam remains profitable, they will continue to do it. Spamming is a multi-trillion dollar industry. There are Chinese spam farms that make profits comparable to the GDP of a small country. They are organized, highly skilled, and highly motivated. From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Oct 18 08:14:03 2010 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 06:14:03 -0700 Subject: Xerox Alto on ebay (not mine!) In-Reply-To: <4CCD68D2A3124C2BB04E080C429FDE95@dell8300> References: <4CBBD22B.9040802@tdh.com> <4CCD68D2A3124C2BB04E080C429FDE95@dell8300> Message-ID: <4CBC481B.9070701@bitsavers.org> On 10/17/10 10:07 PM, Teo Zenios wrote: > Out of curiosity how many people here are planning on cashing in? > I will probably list a completely restored Alto II with software soon. We'll see if a RUNNING machine brings a similar price. From pontus at Update.UU.SE Mon Oct 18 08:25:46 2010 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 15:25:46 +0200 Subject: What would facebook be like in 1984 In-Reply-To: <319909.28071.qm@web113506.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <023864C0-91AA-4726-920C-F0BEACDD791F@bellsouth.net> <319909.28071.qm@web113506.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20101018132546.GA17033@Update.UU.SE> On Mon, Oct 18, 2010 at 06:13:23AM -0700, Christian Liendo wrote: > http://8bitaficionado.com/2010/10/18/what-would-facebook-be-like-in-1984/ > > An artist did a rendition of what facebook would be like in 1984, I am trying to figure what what computer is used in the picture > > > It's not a photo, it is indeed the artists rendition of an old computer. /P From pat at computer-refuge.org Mon Oct 18 08:28:03 2010 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 09:28:03 -0400 Subject: What would facebook be like in 1984 In-Reply-To: <319909.28071.qm@web113506.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <319909.28071.qm@web113506.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <201010180928.03551.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Monday, October 18, 2010, Christian Liendo wrote: > http://8bitaficionado.com/2010/10/18/what-would-facebook-be-like-in-1 > 984/ > > An artist did a rendition of what facebook would be like in 1984, I > am trying to figure what what computer is used in the picture It appears to be based off a TRS-80 model 3 or 4. You do realize that it's not a photograph, right? :) Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From geneb at deltasoft.com Mon Oct 18 08:28:31 2010 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 06:28:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ProFiles magazine scans. In-Reply-To: References: <83E38F171E7640539ED2B6AAC6BFB406@dell8300> <4CB8D892.3050608@jwsss.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 17 Oct 2010, Robert Borsuk wrote: > Gene, > I've never seen these before. I'm not a Kaypro user (none in the collection) but I've owned a couple in the past. > I grabbed the first issue. This looks like it will be a fun read. > Thanks for uploading them. > You're quite welcome Rob! The Kaypro is a neat little machine - you need one. *laughs* I've also got a pile of the Kaypro software docs for CP/M, BASIC, MultiPlan, etc. I'll get those scanned as soon as I can figure out the dead-chicken waving pattern over the scanner. [*] [*]The manuals are of a non-standard heigh and width - the Ricoh scanner I'm using loses it's mind over it for some reason. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From geneb at deltasoft.com Mon Oct 18 08:33:46 2010 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 06:33:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ProFiles magazine scans. In-Reply-To: <4CBB9BAB.5020401@att.net> References: <83E38F171E7640539ED2B6AAC6BFB406@dell8300> <4CB8D892.3050608@jwsss.com> <4CBB9BAB.5020401@att.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 17 Oct 2010, steve shumaker wrote: > Gene > > Do you have a full list of the ProFiles issues that you acquired? I was > given a large set of these mags last summer with a KayPro I acquired. I've > been planning to scan and post them when the scanning station gets set up > again. Overlapping effort is such a waste though... Since there seems to be > interest, I could send you anything I have that's not in your list (it's > gonna be while before my scanning station is back in action). I have issues > from 83 (1), 84(5), 85 (complete year), 86(4), 87(6), and 88(5) and all are > in very good condition. I do not have a list, but it would not take much time to make it - I've only got 25 issues left to scan. I'll try to get a list put together of those 25 tonight. Have you already gone through what I posted? g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From geneb at deltasoft.com Mon Oct 18 08:35:57 2010 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 06:35:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Joining the list In-Reply-To: <4CBB9DC8.40800@snarc.net> References: <2E469DC9FC464EA89943699E53B9844E@vl420mt> <4CBB9DC8.40800@snarc.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 17 Oct 2010, Evan Koblentz wrote: > >>> legitimate users are being drowned out by the volume of spammers trying > to subscribe to the list. > > Can't that be solved by putting a human verification method (i.e. Captcha) on > the subscription page? > As far as I know, MailMan doesn't support CAPTCHA. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From geneb at deltasoft.com Mon Oct 18 08:55:13 2010 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 06:55:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Joining the list In-Reply-To: <4CBBEDF5.7040507@neurotica.com> References: <2E469DC9FC464EA89943699E53B9844E@vl420mt> <4CBBEDF5.7040507@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 18 Oct 2010, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 10/17/10 12:14 PM, Gene Buckle wrote: >> This system works really well for the 80sBBS list I work with at Yahoo!. > > Urr? 80sBBS list? What sort of stuff is covered there? I mean, sure, > "80's BBSs of course", but...reunions with other former BBSers, discussions > about software, recreations, what? I was a HUGE BBSer back in those days; I > ran a small RCP/M system in NJ and was all over the place with the fat phone > bill. > Here you go Dave: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/80sBBS/ g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From geneb at deltasoft.com Mon Oct 18 09:02:51 2010 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 07:02:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Joining the list In-Reply-To: References: <2E469DC9FC464EA89943699E53B9844E@vl420mt> Message-ID: On Mon, 18 Oct 2010, Christian Corti wrote: > On Sun, 17 Oct 2010, Gene Buckle wrote: >> From what Jay has told me, the spammers applying to the list is what locked >> it down in the first place and he's unable to keep up with the number of >> sub requests. Essentially, legitimate users are being drowned out by the >> volume of spammers trying to subscribe to the list. > > That's nonsense, since there are free and very good solutions against spam > since many years now. If you run your site with Postfix configured to reject > mails from unresolvable and inexistant client and from addresses, this will > bring down your spam volume to about the half. And then add SpamAssassin to > scan the other mails, you can practically forget the spam issue. Just add > ClamAV, and you don't even have to bother about viruses. You would be > surprised. I've never undestood why site maintainers complain about these > issues despite the available means to fight against them. > To think it was only a short time ago when we discussed trying to teach ones grandmother how to steal sheep..... At any rate, the issue isn't blocking incoming email, it's spammers subscribing to the list via the MailMan web interface. When you subscribe, it sends a verification link to the address you subscribed. Those happy little spammers have software that will happily go to the enclosed URL in order to "verify" that the requestor actually wanted to be subscribed to the list. Of course, if you WANT spammers subscribing to your mailing list so you have to play whack-a-mole with them.... g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From teoz at neo.rr.com Mon Oct 18 09:04:15 2010 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 10:04:15 -0400 Subject: Joining the list References: <2E469DC9FC464EA89943699E53B9844E@vl420mt><4CBBEDF5.7040507@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <0036C8CDCEBD46BB9627F436D17159CD@dell8300> Can't we just have 2 current members vouch for the applicant to get them on (kind of like how some BBS used to operate)? From geneb at deltasoft.com Mon Oct 18 09:04:26 2010 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 07:04:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Joining the list In-Reply-To: References: <2E469DC9FC464EA89943699E53B9844E@vl420mt> <4CBB9DC8.40800@snarc.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 18 Oct 2010, Christian Corti wrote: > On Sun, 17 Oct 2010, Evan Koblentz wrote: >> Can't that be solved by putting a human verification method (i.e. Captcha) >> on the subscription page? > > Only clueless people use something like Captcha. You don't need this if you > have a properly configured mail system. > WTF? Seriously? Having a "properly configured" email system has f*ck all to do with CAPTCHAs. Are you hard of comprehending or something? g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From geneb at deltasoft.com Mon Oct 18 09:06:49 2010 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 07:06:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Joining the list In-Reply-To: <201010180853.12416.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <201010180853.12416.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: On Mon, 18 Oct 2010, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > On Monday, October 18, 2010, Christian Corti wrote: >> On Sun, 17 Oct 2010, Gene Buckle wrote: >>> From what Jay has told me, the spammers applying to the list is >>> what locked it down in the first place and he's unable to keep up >>> with the number of sub requests. Essentially, legitimate users >>> are being drowned out by the volume of spammers trying to >>> subscribe to the list. >> >> That's nonsense, since there are free and very good solutions against >> spam since many years now. If you run your site with Postfix >> configured to reject mails from unresolvable and inexistant client >> and from addresses, this will bring down your spam volume to about >> the half. And then add SpamAssassin to scan the other mails, you can >> practically forget the spam issue. Just add ClamAV, and you don't >> even have to bother about viruses. You would be surprised. I've >> never undestood why site maintainers complain about these issues >> despite the available means to fight against them. > > That's not the entire problem. Part of it is people [spammers] > subscribing to the list to try to harvest email addresses from the mail > sent out by the list. How is spamassassin going to help with that? > It won't. Essentially, we're talking about runway maintenance while he's yammering on about the airplane. *sigh* g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From js at cimmeri.com Mon Oct 18 09:09:45 2010 From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 09:09:45 -0500 Subject: CompuPro CPU-Z with IMSAI and Front Panel issues In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CBC5529.2000405@cimmeri.com> Well, I know it works, 'cause I've done it myself, but it's been awhile. It doesn't work 100% like an original or a Cromemco ZPU, though. After making all the mods to the CPUZ, you have to bring the CPA itself through all its updates if it hasn't been already, then you have to check the buss lines structure between the two boards to ensure are signals are what they should be... especially the ground lines. This last step is because the CPUZ is S-100 IEEE-696 compliant, whereas the CPA was not... John Singleton Subject: CompuPro CPU-Z with IMSAI and Front Panel issues From: Nick Allen Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2010 00:34:56 -0500 To: cctech at classiccmp.org Anyone have any experience getting the front panel of an IMSAI computer to work with a CompuPro CPU-Z S100 board? I read the documentation (http://maben.homeip.net/static/S100/compupro/cards/CompuPro%20CPU-Z.pdf), and there seems some configuration required, I obviously am missing something as it is not working properly even after I attempt the config in the documentation. If you currently have a board working and can share a photo, or can provide any technical assistance, I would be extremely grateful! Nick From peter.hicks at poggs.co.uk Mon Oct 18 09:11:37 2010 From: peter.hicks at poggs.co.uk (Peter Hicks) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 15:11:37 +0100 Subject: Joining the list In-Reply-To: <0036C8CDCEBD46BB9627F436D17159CD@dell8300> References: <2E469DC9FC464EA89943699E53B9844E@vl420mt><4CBBEDF5.7040507@neurotica.com> <0036C8CDCEBD46BB9627F436D17159CD@dell8300> Message-ID: <4CBC5599.90606@poggs.co.uk> On 18/10/2010 15:04, Teo Zenios wrote: > Can't we just have 2 current members vouch for the applicant to get > them on (kind of like how some BBS used to operate)? There is one other mailing list I know of which is 'closed' - all the rest are open, and there are archives all over the place. Trying to stop spammers harvesting addresses by making this list 'closed' is futile - all it takes is somebody with Outlook and malware on their Windows box, and suddenly you have a whole load of email addresses from the list harvested anyway :( Peter From dkelvey at hotmail.com Mon Oct 18 09:45:15 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 07:45:15 -0700 Subject: Xerox Alto on ebay (not mine!) In-Reply-To: <4CBB9F87.80206@gmail.com> References: <4CBB94BB.3070803@gmail.com>, , <4CBB9F87.80206@gmail.com> Message-ID: > From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com ---snip--- > > You have had different experiences to I, then. I've seen it many a time with > vintage computers - items that people have paid good money for, then quickly > grown bored of them once they've satisfied a long-term desire to "own one of > those", at which point they've relegated the item to storage. When it's > "found" again a few years later, they decide that it's too much effort to find > a new home for it and, as it doesn't seem important to them, they just dump it. > Hi I tend to squirrel things away and forget about them. Every now and then I'll be looking for something else and come across the item that I'd stashed years ago. It would always be like finding it the first time for me. Some people don't see things this way but to me, it is like finding a new treasure. The biggest problem I see is things like floads, fires and death. These seem to be the biggest problems of collectors. I still don't have a good plan for how to disposition my collect when I depart. I truly have no idea what to do. There are a couple of rarer items that the CHM has state interest in but I'd hate to see any part of my collection sent to the scrapper. Still, bits and pieces of my collection are useful to others. I recently read some 1702 EPROMs for Bruce ( of Digi-Barn ) and also dumped ROMs with PASCAL for the AIM-65. I've reconstructed to PAL used on the SwyftCard for the Apple IIe from the operation manual that I hope will be useful to others. I'm always tinkering with things. I try to document things when I can but I'm real bad at that. I often go off on tangents. I've been fiddling with cuckoo clocks lately ( a mechanical sequencial computer ). I guess the important thing is why the person gets something for their collection. Some just want the prize and have no intent to ever explore it. Others will dig into them. Even those that never run them often find out all that they can about their history. The ones I tend to think less of are the ones that just see things as an investment. What I don't like about museums is that they may take an item that you treasure and later sell it. I fully understand why they do this but somehow, it just feels wrong to me. Dwight From shumaker at att.net Mon Oct 18 09:59:28 2010 From: shumaker at att.net (steve shumaker) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 07:59:28 -0700 Subject: Babbage Analytical Engine - CBC interview In-Reply-To: References: <4CBA5BEC.0@30below.com> <20101016194530.K96679@shell.lmi.net> <4CBAE94E.30431.D395A6@cclist.sydex.com> <4CBBAFAA.1040904@brouhaha.com> <4CBBB281.70205@jetnet.ab.ca> <4CBBB596.5040809@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4CBC60D0.4050100@att.net> there are some fascinating statements here that would indicate that clock making and the associated requirement for precision was *the* major force behind the start of mass production and that many early mass production advocates were far more concerned with precision and quality than is commonly assumed! www.infobritan.co.uk/mass_production.htm steve On 10/17/2010 8:13 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >> Joseph Clement's work shows that he was able to achieve that in the early >> 19th century. It didn't become standard practice until later. >> > Real mass production? Enough to make a full Engine without having to > pick and choose parts to get them all to work? > > The US armories were making pretty good guns with real interchangeable > parts during this period, with the technology becoming child's play by > the mid century. The same can not be said about the British armories. > > Guns and clocks are remarkably handy items for benchmarking mechanical > technology. Two very different mass produced precision machines, > basically. > > -- > Will > > From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Oct 18 10:18:32 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 11:18:32 -0400 Subject: Babbage Analytical Engine - CBC interview In-Reply-To: <4CBC60D0.4050100@att.net> References: <4CBA5BEC.0@30below.com> <20101016194530.K96679@shell.lmi.net> <4CBAE94E.30431.D395A6@cclist.sydex.com> <4CBBAFAA.1040904@brouhaha.com> <4CBBB281.70205@jetnet.ab.ca> <4CBBB596.5040809@brouhaha.com> <4CBC60D0.4050100@att.net> Message-ID: > there are some fascinating statements here that would indicate that clock > making and the associated requirement for precision was *the* major force > behind the start of mass production and that many early mass production > advocates were far more concerned with precision and quality than is > commonly assumed! I tend to think it was more military demands (hmmm, just like technology today...). When your guns don't work and theirs do - you probably ought to go back to the armory and kick some asses. -- Will From mtapley at swri.edu Mon Oct 18 10:12:04 2010 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 10:12:04 -0500 Subject: OT: definition, Dazzled (was Tony and museums) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 19:58 -0500 10/17/10, Fred wrote: >I remember when the dimmer switch was a button for the left foot. Me too, from last week when I drove my (1968 Plymouth) station wagon. "Dazzled" here in the US has a slight connotation of being befuddled by something wonderful, as opposed to something merely bright. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/dazzled illustrates this; although the first (and presumably most common) definition has to do with excessive light, the second definition uses synonyms like "astonish" and "impress" and all three of the example sentences for the verbs have the traditional associations with pretty things (women, gems, splendor). -- - Mark 210-379-4635 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Large Asteroids headed toward planets inhabited by beings that don't have technology adequate to stop them: Think of it as Evolution in Fast-Forward. From shumaker at att.net Mon Oct 18 11:01:24 2010 From: shumaker at att.net (steve shumaker) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 09:01:24 -0700 Subject: ProFiles magazine scans. In-Reply-To: References: <83E38F171E7640539ED2B6AAC6BFB406@dell8300> <4CB8D892.3050608@jwsss.com> <4CBB9BAB.5020401@att.net> Message-ID: <4CBC6F54.6080404@att.net> yes... and if that is the full list for those years, then I have a stack of different ones I can send you steve On 10/18/2010 6:33 AM, Gene Buckle wrote: > On Sun, 17 Oct 2010, steve shumaker wrote: > >> Gene >> >> Do you have a full list of the ProFiles issues that you acquired? I >> was given a large set of these mags last summer with a KayPro I >> acquired. I've been planning to scan and post them when the >> scanning station gets set up again. Overlapping effort is such a >> waste though... Since there seems to be interest, I could send you >> anything I have that's not in your list (it's gonna be while before >> my scanning station is back in action). I have issues from 83 (1), >> 84(5), 85 (complete year), 86(4), 87(6), and 88(5) and all are in >> very good condition. > > I do not have a list, but it would not take much time to make it - > I've only got 25 issues left to scan. I'll try to get a list put > together of those 25 tonight. Have you already gone through what I > posted? > > g. > > From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Oct 18 11:10:34 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 12:10:34 -0400 Subject: S-100 history (was Re: CompuPro CPU-Z with IMSAI and Front Panel issues) Message-ID: On 10/18/10, David Gari wrote: > > I may be able to help. I've worked for Morrow Designs (Thinker Toys), > Wordstar (MicroPro) and Stoneware (DBMaster). Yes, I am older than Godbout. > I have pwned two Altairs and an IMSAI. I took a tour of the giant (empty) > Cromemco facility back in the day. Sooo much promise. So sad. Sounds like you have a few stories to tell. My only experience with Godbout gear was using a couple of the full-sized boxes loaded with SRAM cards, serial ports (over a dozen lines) and a MC68K processor board - it was a proof-of-concept prototype for an X.25 WAN router that was a logical descendant of the CompuServe PDP-11-based serial I/O nodes (same architect, different company). I don't remember a single problem with the hardware - rock solid. When the company closed, I gave a 4' stack of enclosures to a friend in town. I should ask him if he's ever done anything with them (I am positive he hasn't discarded them - he's not the type). I have a Morrow Designs OEM ADM-20 terminal that I took with me to VCFmw, but I was unable to get more than baud barf out of it. I should hang an HP 4951 off of it to see what it's really doing. Care to share any interesting stories from the S-100 trenches? -ethan From shumaker at att.net Mon Oct 18 11:20:20 2010 From: shumaker at att.net (steve shumaker) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 09:20:20 -0700 Subject: Babbage Analytical Engine - CBC interview In-Reply-To: References: <4CBA5BEC.0@30below.com> <20101016194530.K96679@shell.lmi.net> <4CBAE94E.30431.D395A6@cclist.sydex.com> <4CBBAFAA.1040904@brouhaha.com> <4CBBB281.70205@jetnet.ab.ca> <4CBBB596.5040809@brouhaha.com> <4CBC60D0.4050100@att.net> Message-ID: <4CBC73C4.7040502@att.net> that would make a lot of sense... if not leading, at least influencing and developing in parallel... steve On 10/18/2010 8:18 AM, William Donzelli wrote: >> there are some fascinating statements here that would indicate that clock >> making and the associated requirement for precision was *the* major force >> behind the start of mass production and that many early mass production >> advocates were far more concerned with precision and quality than is >> commonly assumed! >> > I tend to think it was more military demands (hmmm, just like > technology today...). When your guns don't work and theirs do - you > probably ought to go back to the armory and kick some asses. > > -- > Will > > From shumaker at att.net Mon Oct 18 11:22:35 2010 From: shumaker at att.net (steve shumaker) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 09:22:35 -0700 Subject: S-100 history (was Re: CompuPro CPU-Z with IMSAI and Front Panel issues) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CBC744B.7060005@att.net> ...baud barf? (checking dictionary... nope...) steve On 10/18/2010 9:10 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 10/18/10, David Gari wrote: > >> I may be able to help. I've worked for Morrow Designs (Thinker Toys), >> Wordstar (MicroPro) and Stoneware (DBMaster). Yes, I am older than Godbout. >> I have pwned two Altairs and an IMSAI. I took a tour of the giant (empty) >> Cromemco facility back in the day. Sooo much promise. So sad. >> > Sounds like you have a few stories to tell. > > My only experience with Godbout gear was using a couple of the > full-sized boxes loaded with SRAM cards, serial ports (over a dozen > lines) and a MC68K processor board - it was a proof-of-concept > prototype for an X.25 WAN router that was a logical descendant of the > CompuServe PDP-11-based serial I/O nodes (same architect, different > company). I don't remember a single problem with the hardware - rock > solid. > > When the company closed, I gave a 4' stack of enclosures to a friend > in town. I should ask him if he's ever done anything with them (I am > positive he hasn't discarded them - he's not the type). > > I have a Morrow Designs OEM ADM-20 terminal that I took with me to > VCFmw, but I was unable to get more than baud barf out of it. I > should hang an HP 4951 off of it to see what it's really doing. > > Care to share any interesting stories from the S-100 trenches? > > -ethan > > From shumaker at att.net Mon Oct 18 11:24:00 2010 From: shumaker at att.net (steve shumaker) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 09:24:00 -0700 Subject: S-100 history (was Re: CompuPro CPU-Z with IMSAI and Front Panel issues) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CBC74A0.7080805@att.net> re baud barf... it was a paper dictionary back to sleep now steve On 10/18/2010 9:10 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 10/18/10, David Gari wrote: > >> I may be able to help. I've worked for Morrow Designs (Thinker Toys), >> Wordstar (MicroPro) and Stoneware (DBMaster). Yes, I am older than Godbout. >> I have pwned two Altairs and an IMSAI. I took a tour of the giant (empty) >> Cromemco facility back in the day. Sooo much promise. So sad. >> > Sounds like you have a few stories to tell. > > My only experience with Godbout gear was using a couple of the > full-sized boxes loaded with SRAM cards, serial ports (over a dozen > lines) and a MC68K processor board - it was a proof-of-concept > prototype for an X.25 WAN router that was a logical descendant of the > CompuServe PDP-11-based serial I/O nodes (same architect, different > company). I don't remember a single problem with the hardware - rock > solid. > > When the company closed, I gave a 4' stack of enclosures to a friend > in town. I should ask him if he's ever done anything with them (I am > positive he hasn't discarded them - he's not the type). > > I have a Morrow Designs OEM ADM-20 terminal that I took with me to > VCFmw, but I was unable to get more than baud barf out of it. I > should hang an HP 4951 off of it to see what it's really doing. > > Care to share any interesting stories from the S-100 trenches? > > -ethan > > From thomas.gardner at sbcglobal.net Mon Oct 18 11:33:53 2010 From: thomas.gardner at sbcglobal.net (Tom Gardner) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 09:33:53 -0700 Subject: ProFiles magazine scans. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9E7DDA37F44449B98278A0675DA3FE95@tegp4> > >> I've taken this as an opportunity to reorganize the documentation > section of the retroarchive.org site a bit - It's now split between > hardware& software docs instead of being mixed together. > >> > >> http://www.retroarchive.org FWIW, Norton Internet Security 2011 calls http://www.retroarchive.org a "known malicious web site" for a "malformed container violation" which Norton characterizes as a virus. Tom From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Oct 18 11:34:10 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 12:34:10 -0400 Subject: S-100 history (was Re: CompuPro CPU-Z with IMSAI and Front Panel issues) In-Reply-To: <4CBC74A0.7080805@att.net> References: <4CBC74A0.7080805@att.net> Message-ID: On 10/18/10, steve shumaker wrote: > re baud barf... it was a paper dictionary back to sleep now I have it in a printed and bound dictionary, but here's the online version of that... http://www.outpost9.com/reference/jargon/jargon_17.html#TAG85 -ethan From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Mon Oct 18 11:48:49 2010 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 17:48:49 +0100 Subject: More SCSI Confusion In-Reply-To: References: <000301cb6de8$57fefcc0$07fcf640$@ntlworld.com> <001b01cb6e43$c7a16b20$56e44160$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <005c01cb6ee4$581c2730$08547590$@ntlworld.com> I suspected the cable a while back and bought a replacement, which had no effect. I have just ordered another card too so I will see if changing it will help when it arrives. None of the devices are terminated themselves as far as I can tell, but when I replace the card I will check again. Also, I now have pka0_soft_term set to "on" as you recommend. Thanks Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Adrian Graham > Sent: 18 October 2010 12:22 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: More SCSI Confusion > > On 17 October 2010 22:39, Rob Jarratt wrote: > > The card is a KZPBA-CX. Web searches would indicate that this is > > really the same as the -CA model. I tried it in two different PCI > > slots. In the behaviour was exactly the same and in the other it > > failed to be recognised by the SRM. Thanks for the link to the manual, I will > study it carefully. > > I know the KZPBA-CX (and its differential cousin the CY) far too well for my > own good :) I've never successfully used both internal and external ports > even though the card itself is supposed to auto detect and either do a soft > term or not depending on what's connected to it. > I've had a LOT of problems with the internal SCSI cable on the 433 and 500, > pka0_soft_term should just be 'on' so if you're having issues it's either the > card or the cable. > > Other thing to check is that your devices aren't terminated themselves, > providing TERM PWR is fine but not actual termination. > > -- > adrian/witchy > Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest home computer collection? > www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk From geneb at deltasoft.com Mon Oct 18 11:49:33 2010 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 09:49:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ProFiles magazine scans. In-Reply-To: <9E7DDA37F44449B98278A0675DA3FE95@tegp4> References: <9E7DDA37F44449B98278A0675DA3FE95@tegp4> Message-ID: On Mon, 18 Oct 2010, Tom Gardner wrote: >>>> I've taken this as an opportunity to reorganize the documentation >> section of the retroarchive.org site a bit - It's now split between >> hardware& software docs instead of being mixed together. >>>> >>>> http://www.retroarchive.org > > FWIW, Norton Internet Security 2011 calls http://www.retroarchive.org a > "known malicious web site" for a "malformed container violation" which > Norton characterizes as a virus. > It's a non-event. While Norton reports it, it's not even capable of explaining what it is - all you get is: "The threat writeup you were searching for was not found. Visit the Symantec Threat Explorer to search for Threat information. " Note that the file it's complaining about is: http://www.retroarchive.org/hardware/heathkit/H19H89.CNV Which of COURSE is an obvious danger to any Windows user. *rolls eyes* g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Mon Oct 18 11:50:15 2010 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 17:50:15 +0100 Subject: More SCSI Confusion In-Reply-To: <4CBB6BB2.1030709@wickensonline.co.uk> References: <000301cb6de8$57fefcc0$07fcf640$@ntlworld.com> <000b01cb6e10$883f6820$98be3860$@ntlworld.com> <4CBB6BB2.1030709@wickensonline.co.uk> Message-ID: <005d01cb6ee4$8b8a0bf0$a29e23d0$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Mark Wickens > Sent: 17 October 2010 22:34 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only > Subject: Re: More SCSI Confusion > > On 17/10/10 16:32, Rob Jarratt wrote: > > Yes I thought about that and I tried changing it to "on" but it did > > not make a difference; and with the "diff" setting it does seem to > > work, at least some of the time. > > > > I also just found out something strange. If I remove any devices with > > a SCSI ID numerically lower than the CD-ROM then both the CD-ROM and > > the higher HDDs are still seen after the SCSI reset. To prove this I > > took out DKA600 and changed the SCSI ID of DKA0 to make it DKA500. > > This time, after the reset, it recognised both the CD-ROM (ID 4) and > > the disk that was at ID 0 and now was at ID 5. > > > > Regards > > > > Rob > > > > > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > >> bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Adrian Graham > >> Sent: 17 October 2010 15:17 > >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > >> Subject: Re: More SCSI Confusion > >> > >> On 17 October 2010 11:44, Rob Jarratt > wrote: > >> > >>>>>> sh pk* > >>>>>> > >>> pka0_host_id 7 > >>> pka0_mode ultra > >>> pka0_soft_term diff > >>> > >> The QLA1040 isn't differential is it? The soft_term should be just > >> 'on' I > >> > > think. > > > >> -- > >> adrian/witchy > >> Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest home computer collection? > >> www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk > >> > > > > Might be a red herring Rob, but I seem to remember certainly for the > BA356 integrated into the Alphaserver 1000A that the enclosure could be > operated in a split bus mode where half the enclosure was on one bus and > the other half on another. > > Just a thought (you might want to cross post this to comp.os.vms). > > Mark. I posted this to comp.sys.dec and someone told me there about the split bus. I will check this. Thanks Rob From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Mon Oct 18 12:04:19 2010 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 10:04:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: What would facebook be like in 1984 In-Reply-To: <319909.28071.qm@web113506.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <319909.28071.qm@web113506.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 18 Oct 2010, Christian Liendo wrote: > http://8bitaficionado.com/2010/10/18/what-would-facebook-be-like-in-1984/ > > An artist did a rendition of what facebook would be like in 1984, I am > trying to figure what what computer is used in the picture I don't think it's supposed to be any particular computer. The entire screen appears to be created in a drawing program. The disk drives were cut-and-pasted. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Oct 18 12:10:56 2010 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 10:10:56 -0700 Subject: What would facebook be like in 1984 In-Reply-To: References: <319909.28071.qm@web113506.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: At 10:04 AM -0700 10/18/10, David Griffith wrote: >On Mon, 18 Oct 2010, Christian Liendo wrote: > >>http://8bitaficionado.com/2010/10/18/what-would-facebook-be-like-in-1984/ >> >>An artist did a rendition of what facebook would be like in 1984, I >>am trying to figure what what computer is used in the picture > >I don't think it's supposed to be any particular computer. The >entire screen appears to be created in a drawing program. The disk >drives were cut-and-pasted. The curvature of the screen also looked a bit too severe for that era. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | From legalize at xmission.com Mon Oct 18 12:21:26 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 11:21:26 -0600 Subject: Applicon VAX 11/751 available Message-ID: I didn't buy it, but I spotted a VAX 11/751 with Applicon branding on it at a surplus dealer. I will upload some photos I took to a picasa web album tonight. If there is any interest in purchasing it, contact me and I'll put you in touch with the dealer. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk Mon Oct 18 12:46:52 2010 From: roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk (Roger Holmes) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 18:46:52 +0100 Subject: Oldest original proper computer (stored program etc) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <826B0A94-164B-40CC-B485-23658973E30F@microspot.co.uk> I have looked it up again and what I was referring to was CSIRAC, in Melbourne. > > Is your 1301 older than TNMoC's Elliot 803? I'm pretty sure that's 1962, too, > but I'm not sure which month... The 803 is another project of the Computer Conservation Society and the chap who told me my machine was the oldest (Rod Brown) had just come back from a committee meeting of the CCS, so I presume they think mine is older but I would not like to argue that point, I was only nine years old myself in 1962. I know my 1301 was installed in time for program development to be finalised before it went live to handle the University of London's undergraduate matriculation in 1962. The reason the University got a prototype machine was that they threatened to tell the world there would not be any new undergraduates in 1962 and that a company called ICT was responsible. A machine destined for internal software development was quickly diverted to the university. Every few weeks a team of engineers would take over the machine for few hours and implement the changes made to all the other six prototypes at GEC telephones Coventry and ICT Putney and maybe elsewhere too. I am not interested in machines which have not been powered up for more than a year, even if they were operational when stored, the likelihood of them working when turned on again is low. Expansion and contraction, static electricity, chemical reactions especially in old electrolytic capacitors take their toll. Computers were built to be used, one which cannot be operated is no more interest to me than the hull of an old ship. I love the wonder of small children when they see how big, heavy, noisy and yes, smelly old computers used to be than the modern things they are used to. I love getting them to t