From cclist at sydex.com Mon Nov 1 00:28:16 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2010 22:28:16 -0700 Subject: TTL HEX LED driver chip In-Reply-To: References: <4CC85C37.1029.1FD4634@cclist.sydex.com>, <4CCDE04D.8051.27F0B17@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4CCDED80.7133.2B29D9B@cclist.sydex.com> On 1 Nov 2010 at 0:40, Dan Roganti wrote: > but that's going over 16pins :) No--the 74S1051 is a 12-diode 16-pin PDIP. If you don't want to use the 154, just use two 74138s--it has both positive and negative enables. --Chuck From dkelvey at hotmail.com Mon Nov 1 09:21:12 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2010 07:21:12 -0700 Subject: Repairing core memories.... In-Reply-To: <4CCE0C32.5060701@jwsss.com> References: <4CCD4C3D.30007@bluewin.ch>, , <4CCD5D45.24209.7E43DA@cclist.sydex.com>, , , <4CCD9CD4.23319.1768A24@cclist.sydex.com>, <4CCE0C32.5060701@jwsss.com> Message-ID: > Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2010 17:39:14 -0700 > From: jws at jwsss.com > To: > Subject: Re: Repairing core memories.... > > Microdata core stacks had these huge resistors in the inhibit circuit > that would literally set the board and system on fire. > > Panel mode, R register 0xA010 in the switchers (write) and run, wait for > smoke or PS failure. > > Microcoded machines with easy access to this sort of 1/2 cycle write > would hit the board every 200us, when the requirement was for 600us for > a 1/2 cycle read, and 1000us for a Write. The writes would not complete > that fast, but the 1600 (and 800's) logic was such that you would cycle > the board fast enough to cause the damage. > Hi YOu mean ns, not us. 1000us is one millisecond. That is not too fast. I wonder what the failure mode is. It would almost have to be that the cores cracked from thermal stress. I can't imagine the magnetic properties changing otherwise. A tiny air gap would make the cores hard to magnetize. Dwight From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Nov 1 10:51:57 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2010 11:51:57 -0400 Subject: 68K (was: Happy Birthday VAX 11/780) In-Reply-To: <4CCBF89C.1090809@softjar.se> References: <4CCBF89C.1090809@softjar.se> Message-ID: On Sat, Oct 30, 2010 at 6:51 AM, Johnny Billquist wrote: > On 2010-10-30 01:12, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> I know it works well enough in early Sun workstations and the AT&T >> Unix PC (3B1/7300), but I have no knowledge of any required >> workarounds due to possible bugs. > > Yes, the 68010 worked fine with demand paging. The 68000 did not. > Neither of them implemented instructions restarts, though. As noted below, > the 68010 did instuction suspension instead. Yes. I was previously unaware of the distinction but did know what the 68000 could not do that the 68010 could. > The "interesting" workarounds that I've hear of are actually 68000-related... > Using their own designed MMU (there were none from Motorola for the 68000), What about the 68451? (we had one in a prototype product design in 1984/1985 that never made it to market) It wasn't terribly popular, but it did exist. > and a second CPU, Apollo made the primary CPU stall on a page fault, and the > secondady CPU wake up. The secondary CPU could then do a page in... That sounds like the design of the Perkin-Elmer workstation I have - two 68000s, one for running the OS, one for paging. -ethan From dm561 at torfree.net Mon Nov 1 11:54:47 2010 From: dm561 at torfree.net (MikeS) Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2010 11:54:47 -0500 Subject: Repairing core memories.... References: Message-ID: <2D67381F4B0B453CAC4FEECA99663745@vl420mt> Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2010 14:22:35 -0400 (EDT) From: "O. Sharp" Subject: Re: Repairing core memories.... On Sun, 31 Oct 2010, Jos Dreesen wrote: > So I have these 2 PDP-8/L core stacks I am trying to recover: > > One would be perfect, if bit 3 @ adr 0 would be alive... > Although this is 99.99% OK, it is of course not good enough. I suspect I'm not the only one on the list who: -thinks opening up a core-stack and repairing it is theoretically possible; -also thinks it would be a hell of a daunting project; -is somewhat amazed at the dexterity and patience of the people who originally hand-wired them at manufacture; and -thinks pulling off a repair of a core-plane by rewiring it by hand would give significant bragging rights. :) -O.- +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Agreed ;-) But if anybody does want to, I've got a small (220x16) MDS (Fabri-Tek) core plane with an already damaged section, cut-off edge connectors etc. to practice on; for even more fun I could even throw in a few of two different sizes of raw cores... mike From ragooman at gmail.com Mon Nov 1 12:11:03 2010 From: ragooman at gmail.com (Dan Roganti) Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2010 13:11:03 -0400 Subject: TTL HEX LED driver chip In-Reply-To: <4CCDED80.7133.2B29D9B@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4CC85C37.1029.1FD4634@cclist.sydex.com> <4CCDE04D.8051.27F0B17@cclist.sydex.com> <4CCDED80.7133.2B29D9B@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Nov 1, 2010 at 1:28 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 1 Nov 2010 at 0:40, Dan Roganti wrote: > > > > but that's going over 16pins :) > > No--the 74S1051 is a 12-diode 16-pin PDIP. If you don't want to use > the 154, just use two 74138s--it has both positive and negative > enables. > > That part is wired internally as a Diode Terminator, not much left over for a matrix, little flexibility there, it'll take more than 4 chips - and since the diodes are in a DIP, that counts as a chip ;) Didn't they make a straight Diode Pack w/o the common anode or cathode --which you commonly see - for wiring into a matrix for situations like this ? =Dan From ragooman at gmail.com Mon Nov 1 12:31:06 2010 From: ragooman at gmail.com (Dan Roganti) Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2010 13:31:06 -0400 Subject: TTL HEX LED driver chip In-Reply-To: References: <4CC85C37.1029.1FD4634@cclist.sydex.com> <4CCDE04D.8051.27F0B17@cclist.sydex.com> <4CCDED80.7133.2B29D9B@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Nov 1, 2010 at 1:11 PM, Dan Roganti wrote: > > > On Mon, Nov 1, 2010 at 1:28 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > >> On 1 Nov 2010 at 0:40, Dan Roganti wrote: >> >> >> > but that's going over 16pins :) >> >> No--the 74S1051 is a 12-diode 16-pin PDIP. If you don't want to use >> the 154, just use two 74138s--it has both positive and negative >> enables. >> >> > That part is wired internally as a Diode Terminator, not much left over for > a matrix, little flexibility there, it'll take more than 4 chips - and since > the diodes are in a DIP, that counts as a chip ;) > > Didn't they make a straight Diode Pack w/o the common anode or cathode > --which you commonly see - for wiring into a matrix for situations like this > ? > > answered my own question 1N6510, 14pin DIP 1N6101, 16pin DIP http://sites.google.com/site/interfacebus/Home/diode-arrays =Dan From cclist at sydex.com Mon Nov 1 12:45:28 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 01 Nov 2010 10:45:28 -0700 Subject: TTL HEX LED driver chip In-Reply-To: References: <4CC85C37.1029.1FD4634@cclist.sydex.com>, <4CCDED80.7133.2B29D9B@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4CCE9A48.6349.36A2B1@cclist.sydex.com> On 1 Nov 2010 at 13:11, Dan Roganti wrote: > > > That part is wired internally as a Diode Terminator, not much left > over for a matrix, little flexibility there, it'll take more than 4 > chips - and since the diodes are in a DIP, that counts as a chip ;) Sure, all you need is 7 of these critters; each common-anode line is an output, with the cathodes connected to the appropriate demux output from the 154. > Didn't they make a straight Diode Pack w/o the common anode or cathode > --which you commonly see - for wiring into a matrix for situations > like this ? Yes, but not with an SN74xxx part number, which was my way of staying within the ground rules of using only 74xx series logic. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Mon Nov 1 12:50:12 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 01 Nov 2010 10:50:12 -0700 Subject: Large geometry MFM drive testing In-Reply-To: References: , <4CCD41A5.8728.125D5A@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4CCE9B64.153.3AF543@cclist.sydex.com> On 31 Oct 2010 at 16:03, Steven Hirsch wrote: > Ok, but I still need to know the procedure and appropriate utility to > surface-test the drives. The mapping you describe appears to be a > low-level notion that is not mapped to anything in DOS fdisk and/or > Spinrite. Have you tried installing Spinrite's DDO? That could get you there regardless of what the native BIOS says. I don't recall if this will work on MFM drives or not. My point was that your PCs BIOS probably doesn't know about the borrowed cylinder bits dodge--and your controller doesn't have its own BIOS on-board. You could also look around for a controller with its own BIOS to support large MFM drives--they weren't terribly uncommon. --Chuck From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Nov 1 13:06:06 2010 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Mon, 01 Nov 2010 12:06:06 -0600 Subject: TTL HEX LED driver chip In-Reply-To: <4CCE9A48.6349.36A2B1@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4CC85C37.1029.1FD4634@cclist.sydex.com>, <4CCDED80.7133.2B29D9B@cclist.sydex.com>, <4CCE9A48.6349.36A2B1@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4CCF018E.9030300@jetnet.ab.ca> On 01/11/2010 11:45 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Yes, but not with an SN74xxx part number, which was my way of staying > within the ground rules of using only 74xx series logic. scratches out TTL ... writes RTL in pencil. runs like hell ... > --Chuck Ben. PS.. And stick to the RTL cookbook hiding as a PDF on the web. From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Mon Nov 1 14:10:47 2010 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2010 11:10:47 -0800 Subject: TTL HEX LED driver chip In-Reply-To: References: <4CC85C37.1029.1FD4634@cclist.sydex.com> <4CC98558.24409.17FDC01@cclist.sydex.com> <7f3cbf42b811f6e7963fbe47c336bae4@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <05789c399001ae170d72be50c5b4bd8d@cs.ubc.ca> On 2010 Oct 31, at 7:48 PM, Dan Roganti wrote: > 4 chip solution, 74247, 74138, 7407, 4066 > No rule against using diodes ;) > http://www.vintagecomputer.net/ragooman/files/schematics/hexdec/ > hexdecoder1a.jpg > > You have to take the ol' "ouside the box" approach. > I call it the Kobayashi Maru hack ;) > Since the '247 already provides 15 decodes already, I just tweak the > ouputs > for A-F > I use the lowercase 'c' since it saves a chip versus a uppercase 'C' > > eh-hem, and don't let programmers design hardware :D Neat suggestion to modify the existing A-F displays, but once you have the '138 and a bunch of diodes you could just revert to the technique of generating 8-F, and get by with 2 chips (247,138), 1 inverter (to disable the 247 for >=8), and diodes. The use of the 4066 does present a problem for direct drive of the LEDs: ON resistance of the transmission gates is on the order of hundreds of ohms (with considerable variability over devices and temp). From ragooman at gmail.com Mon Nov 1 13:23:55 2010 From: ragooman at gmail.com (Dan Roganti) Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2010 14:23:55 -0400 Subject: TTL HEX LED driver chip In-Reply-To: <05789c399001ae170d72be50c5b4bd8d@cs.ubc.ca> References: <4CC85C37.1029.1FD4634@cclist.sydex.com> <4CC98558.24409.17FDC01@cclist.sydex.com> <7f3cbf42b811f6e7963fbe47c336bae4@cs.ubc.ca> <05789c399001ae170d72be50c5b4bd8d@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: On Mon, Nov 1, 2010 at 3:10 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > On 2010 Oct 31, at 7:48 PM, Dan Roganti wrote: > >> 4 chip solution, 74247, 74138, 7407, 4066 >> No rule against using diodes ;) >> >> http://www.vintagecomputer.net/ragooman/files/schematics/hexdec/hexdecoder1a.jpg >> >> You have to take the ol' "ouside the box" approach. >> I call it the Kobayashi Maru hack ;) >> Since the '247 already provides 15 decodes already, I just tweak the >> ouputs >> for A-F >> I use the lowercase 'c' since it saves a chip versus a uppercase 'C' >> >> eh-hem, and don't let programmers design hardware :D >> > > Neat suggestion to modify the existing A-F displays, but once you have the > '138 and a bunch of diodes you could just revert to the technique of > generating 8-F, and get by with 2 chips (247,138), 1 inverter (to disable > the 247 for >=8), and diodes. > > The use of the 4066 does present a problem for direct drive of the LEDs: ON > resistance of the transmission gates is on the order of hundreds of ohms > (with considerable variability over devices and temp). > > oh yea, that would make it only 3chips - we have a winner ! Although the utliz.of the inverter chip is very low. You could always just use a transistor. I just didn't want to leave the '247 abandoned ;) The on resistance of the 4066 (~80ohm) is way less than the 4016(~200ohm) - which is why I chose that one - but marginally higher when operating a the lower 5volts. But you could still compensate by lowering the LED resister to keep it just as bright. I never rule out CMOS :) =Dan --http://www.vintagecomputer.net/ragooman/ From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Mon Nov 1 15:02:56 2010 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2010 12:02:56 -0800 Subject: TTL HEX LED driver chip In-Reply-To: References: <4CC85C37.1029.1FD4634@cclist.sydex.com> <4CC98558.24409.17FDC01@cclist.sydex.com> <7f3cbf42b811f6e7963fbe47c336bae4@cs.ubc.ca> <05789c399001ae170d72be50c5b4bd8d@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <9be7b81f6df8d97a7dc58454dbb78bab@cs.ubc.ca> On 2010 Nov 1, at 10:23 AM, Dan Roganti wrote: > On Mon, Nov 1, 2010 at 3:10 PM, Brent Hilpert > wrote: >> >> Neat suggestion to modify the existing A-F displays, but once you >> have the >> '138 and a bunch of diodes you could just revert to the technique of >> generating 8-F, and get by with 2 chips (247,138), 1 inverter (to >> disable >> the 247 for >=8), and diodes. >> >> The use of the 4066 does present a problem for direct drive of the >> LEDs: ON >> resistance of the transmission gates is on the order of hundreds of >> ohms >> (with considerable variability over devices and temp). >> > oh yea, that would make it only 3chips - we have a winner ! > Although the utliz.of the inverter chip is very low. > You could always just use a transistor. > I just didn't want to leave the '247 abandoned ;) > > The on resistance of the 4066 (~80ohm) is way less than the > 4016(~200ohm) - > which is why I chose that one - but marginally higher when operating a > the > lower 5volts. But you could still compensate by lowering the LED > resister to > keep it just as bright. We must have different specs at hand (different manufacturers perhaps): Fairchild'76 says 270 ohms typ, 1000 max at 5V/25C, Harris'92 says 470-1050. Even if you account for the R in the LED drop R, part of the problem is the variability between devices, even though intra-device variability is low. Based on the specs I have power dissipation may also be an issue once you're pushing current through that internal R (100mW max per switch). > I never rule out CMOS :) From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Nov 1 14:43:30 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2010 19:43:30 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Wanted : Monitor Capable of TTL RGB In-Reply-To: from "Dan Williams" at Oct 31, 10 11:02:38 pm Message-ID: > I wanted something I can use on a few machines, mainly I wanted some > Colour on a RM Nimbus, but should work ok on the 480Z as well I can't find my 480Z technical manual. The 380Z has _analogue_ RGB ouputs (8 bit colour value split into 2,3,3 bits for the 3 colour 'DACs'). But anyway, there are basically 3 things you need to get right when connecting up a monitor : 1) the scan rates, particularly the horizontal scan rate. Modifying the vertical deflection system for a different rate is not too hard given a scheamtic of the monitor, modifying the horizontal one is. Note that UK and US TV rates are sufficiently close that they are compatible. 2) The colour signals. Going from TTL to analogue is easy (particualrly if you only have 3 TTL signals, RGB, to deal with). Going the other way is a harder. Of course you may find machines that output composite colour video (many home computers) or separate luminance and chrominance (like S-video, some Commodore machines) 3) The syncs [1]. This hasn't been mentioned yet. Some systems use separate syncs, some compoiste sync. To go from separate syncs to composite sync is easy in general. Just XOR the signals together. Separating syncs is a little harder, the LM1881 or it's more modern variants work well. But before doing that, if possible look at the scheamtics of the monitor. I've met a fair number of mobnitors with 'separate sync' inputs where the inputs are XORed (or similar) inside the monitor, then separated again. If that's the case you can feed composite sync into one input and ground the other one/. Sometimes you have to invert the sync signals, but that's easy too. Monitors with SCART socket inputs often take composite sync at a low level on the _composite video input_ pin of the SCART socket. But I've yet to meet one that objects to TTL being fed in here. [1] 'If you ahve sync problems, the picture swims about. Hence the expression "sync or swim"' No, I can't remember where I got that from... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Nov 1 15:10:23 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2010 20:10:23 +0000 (GMT) Subject: 8" winchester drive clock rates (was Re: DiscFerret: First working In-Reply-To: <4CCE208E.5060307@bitsavers.org> from "Al Kossow" at Oct 31, 10 07:06:06 pm Message-ID: > I'm trying to figure out what the SA4000 expects. It seems to be a 140ns clock. > The main thing I need this for is recovering some PERQ data. > Just found the 4000 service manual, will have that on bitsavers soon. I am assuming this is a real SA4000 from a PERQ 1 or 1a. That is, a 14" winchester drive. It doens't need a clock _input_ at all for reading. There is a differential pair 'PLO clock' which are outputs from the drive and consist of the sepeatated clock from the data separator on the drive. The Write Clock pair are inputs, but are only needed for writing (which I assume you are not goign to do). In fact the PERQ just links the PLO clock outputs back to the write clock inputs by traces on the controller board. I asusme you have the schematics of the PERQ CIO board, etc. One thing to watch for on a real SA4000 is the seek control logic. You can sent it step pulses for one track at a time and it works fine. You can sent it a burst of step pulses _faster than a given rate_ and it will buffer them and then move the heads the apporopraite number of cylinders/ But if yousend it a burst of pulses too slowly, it will miscount and the heads wil lnot be where youexpect them The Seek counter logic is horrible, put it this way, if anyone who'd been workign for me had come up with that design they would have been off ot the unemployment office... > > Looking at the schematics, the Quantum 2000 series doesn't use it at all. Most of > my Xerox 8010 drives are from Quantum > > I don't seem to have any docs for the Micropolis 8" drives. I have some information (including schematics) for the Micropolis 1200 series that were used on the PERQ 2 T1 machines. If you're working with onoe of those from a PERQ, note that there's an ICL-designed board on top of it that converts the interface to something sort-of like an SA4000, but with differnet control signals (the PERQ had a couple of ports to drive the SA4000 control lines, these were used to talk to this interface board, but the microcode used was different, so the signals are not the same). Again I have schematics, etc. -tony From ss at allegro.com Mon Nov 1 15:32:40 2010 From: ss at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2010 13:32:40 -0700 Subject: Free: Travan-1 mini-cartridges (TR-1, Imation) In-Reply-To: References: <4CCB0408.4030308@nathanpralle.com> Message-ID: Hi, While cleaning, we found a box of four unused TR-1 (Travan-1) mini-cartridges, made by Imation. These are rated at 400 MB uncompressed capacity ("800 MB" compressed rating). (The box says "lifetime warranty :) Free for the asking. Local pickup preferred (Cupertino), otherwise PayPal us the postage cost. Please email offlist to sieler at allegro.com thanks, Stan Sieler From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Mon Nov 1 15:44:11 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2010 18:44:11 -0200 Subject: Travan-1 mini-cartridges (TR-1, Imation) References: <4CCB0408.4030308@nathanpralle.com> Message-ID: <0d1701cb7a05$a25fe5d0$6600a8c0@portajara> >While cleaning, we found a box of four unused TR-1 (Travan-1) >mini-cartridges, made by Imation. >These are rated at 400 MB uncompressed capacity ("800 MB" compressed >rating). >(The box says "lifetime warranty :) Talking'bout that, I got a Quantum DLT4000 drive...I could use some DLT tapes for this drive :oD From thomas.gardner at sbcglobal.net Mon Nov 1 15:52:19 2010 From: thomas.gardner at sbcglobal.net (Tom Gardner) Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2010 13:52:19 -0700 Subject: Some IBM Core Memory Artifact Help if possible Message-ID: Hi Can anyone provide: 1) The dimensions of the memory plane from the Type 738 Memory used in the IBM 704 and other computers of its generation. There is an undimensioned photo in Pugh's "Memories That Shaped An Industry" C 1984 (p.158) that makes a 4 KiB plane look to be about 14 in by 7 in. A high quality photo would be appreciated. I can send anyone a scan if they care. 2) A photo and dimensions of the M4I memory plane (that's M4eye not M4one) that was used in the System 360 M65 and M70. The Computer History Museum has an artifact identified as a, Magnetic Core Plane, IBM /360 Model 65, http://www.computerhistory.org/collections/accession/102627815, but it looks too small and too crude to be for those machines. I could be wrong so I would appreciate someone who could verify the artifact or alternatively the correct photo and dimensions. Pugh is unclear but he does imply a much larger frame. This is for a web exhibit I am preparing for the Computer History Museum Any help would be appreciated. Thanks Tom From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Mon Nov 1 16:06:22 2010 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2010 21:06:22 -0000 Subject: Possible Failed H7868 PSU Message-ID: <014201cb7a08$a479bdc0$ed6d3940$@ntlworld.com> My MicroVAX 3400 will not power up. I think it is because the right hand H7868 PSU has failed, the green LED on it does not light up, while on the left hand H7868 it the green LED does come on. I have no real electronics expertise, very limited diagnostic equipment (just a multimeter really) and I know that fiddling with PSUs is one of the more dangerous things you can do with a computer. That said, I am willing to have a go at repairing it, but have no idea what might be wrong. All I can say is that it worked a few weeks ago when I last powered it on, but when I came to power it on tonight it was just dead, no pops, bangs or smoke, just silence. Can anyone give me some idea where to begin? Thanks Rob From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Mon Nov 1 17:25:08 2010 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2010 14:25:08 -0800 Subject: Repairing core memories.... In-Reply-To: <4CCD4C3D.30007@bluewin.ch> References: <4CCD4C3D.30007@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: On 2010 Oct 31, at 3:00 AM, Jos Dreesen wrote: > So I have these 2 PDP-8/L core stacks I am trying to recover: > > One would be perfect, if bit 3 @ adr 0 would be alive... > Although this is 99.99% OK, it is of course not good enough. > > The other stack seems to be a total loss : > 2 sense wires are open circuit, more than 20 select diodes shorted. > Of course the further quality of the cores is unknown. > > Is there any realistic way of getting one fully functional stack out > of these ? > > Removing a single core from the really bad stack to the almost OK > stack would seems almost feasible to me, since address 0 is bound to > be on a edge of a core mat. > > Any ideas / suggestions ? Here's a photo of some core with spliced wires: http://www3.telus.net/~bhilpert/tmp/coreMontage.jpg I suspect these were fixes done at the time of manufacture, there are a quite a few of them over a large ~64KB planar array. I don't think they were (all) done to replace cores though, they don't seem to open all the wires to be able to replace a core. Perhaps fixing wires that broke during manufacture. Don't know how the electrical contact was made in the splices, whether soldering or perhaps some sort of pressure weld. I don't know what size cores you're dealing with, these ones are pretty tiny, about 1/100 inch OD in 128*256 arrays. Also included is an inset showing what happens when one drops a screwdriver onto the cores (guilty). The plane is just a display item though, so it wasn't a crisis. This is a 3-wire system, there is no diagonally-strung sense-wire. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Nov 1 16:28:39 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2010 21:28:39 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Possible Failed H7868 PSU In-Reply-To: <014201cb7a08$a479bdc0$ed6d3940$@ntlworld.com> from "Rob Jarratt" at Nov 1, 10 09:06:22 pm Message-ID: > > My MicroVAX 3400 will not power up. I think it is because the right hand > H7868 PSU has failed, the green LED on it does not light up, while on the > left hand H7868 it the green LED does come on. I have no real electronics > expertise, very limited diagnostic equipment (just a multimeter really) and > I know that fiddling with PSUs is one of the more dangerous things you can > do with a computer. That said, I am willing to have a go at repairing it, > but have no idea what might be wrong. All I can say is that it worked a few > weeks ago when I last powered it on, but when I came to power it on tonight > it was just dead, no pops, bangs or smoke, just silence. > > Can anyone give me some idea where to begin? I don't know this supply at all (and at one time DEC made some very unconventional PSU....) but I can give you some tips for general SMPSUs Unplug the mains, remove the PSU, and remove any casing from around the PSU board. Do this with some care, as it's possible that some high voltage capacitors are still charged. Try to locate a pair (normally) of capacitors rated at aa fw hundred uF and about 200V working. Measure the voltage across them (between the connections of each capacitor on the PCB) with your multimeter. If they are still charged, you will see about 150V. What I do then is take a 10k resistor, bend the leads to as to fit between the connections of a capacitor, hold it in insulated pliers and touch it to the connections for a few seconds. Then check the voltage again. If they were charged, it suggests the input rectifier is working, the chopper isn't, and there's no bleeder resistor (see below) Ok, it's now safe to to handle Remove the fuse (there is almost certainly one on the PSU board). Check it with an ohmmeter. If it's open, examine it. If the glass is blackened orcracked, it suggests a serious overcurrnet fault, probalby shorted semiconductors on the mains side of the PSU. If the fuse is good, there's probably a start-up roblem. Most of the time thre are resistors of the order of 100k connected from the mains smoothing capacitors (the ones you checked and discharged). If you can find such resistors, desolder them and test them with the ohmmeter. Quite often they have failed open-circuit, in which case replace them and try again. -tony From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Mon Nov 1 17:16:31 2010 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2010 22:16:31 -0000 Subject: Possible Failed H7868 PSU In-Reply-To: References: <014201cb7a08$a479bdc0$ed6d3940$@ntlworld.com> from "Rob Jarratt" at Nov 1, 10 09:06:22 pm Message-ID: <015501cb7a12$71c0eca0$5542c5e0$@ntlworld.com> Thank you very much for the advice. I will extract the PSU at the first opportunity and try your suggestions. Regards Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] > On Behalf Of Tony Duell > Sent: 01 November 2010 21:29 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Possible Failed H7868 PSU > > > > > My MicroVAX 3400 will not power up. I think it is because the right > > hand > > H7868 PSU has failed, the green LED on it does not light up, while on > > the left hand H7868 it the green LED does come on. I have no real > > electronics expertise, very limited diagnostic equipment (just a > > multimeter really) and I know that fiddling with PSUs is one of the > > more dangerous things you can do with a computer. That said, I am > > willing to have a go at repairing it, but have no idea what might be > > wrong. All I can say is that it worked a few weeks ago when I last > > powered it on, but when I came to power it on tonight it was just dead, no > pops, bangs or smoke, just silence. > > > > Can anyone give me some idea where to begin? > > I don't know this supply at all (and at one time DEC made some very > unconventional PSU....) but I can give you some tips for general SMPSUs > > Unplug the mains, remove the PSU, and remove any casing from around the > PSU board. Do this with some care, as it's possible that some high voltage > capacitors are still charged. > > Try to locate a pair (normally) of capacitors rated at aa fw hundred uF and > about 200V working. Measure the voltage across them (between the > connections of each capacitor on the PCB) with your multimeter. If they are still > charged, you will see about 150V. What I do then is take a 10k resistor, bend > the leads to as to fit between the connections of a capacitor, hold it in insulated > pliers and touch it to the connections for a few seconds. Then check the voltage > again. If they were charged, it suggests the input rectifier is working, the > chopper isn't, and there's no bleeder resistor (see below) > > Ok, it's now safe to to handle Remove the fuse (there is almost certainly one on > the PSU board). Check it with an ohmmeter. If it's open, examine it. If the glass > is blackened orcracked, it suggests a serious overcurrnet fault, probalby > shorted semiconductors on the mains side of the PSU. > > If the fuse is good, there's probably a start-up roblem. Most of the time thre > are resistors of the order of 100k connected from the mains smoothing > capacitors (the ones you checked and discharged). If you can find such resistors, > desolder them and test them with the ohmmeter. Quite often they have failed > open-circuit, in which case replace them and try again. > > -tony From scanning.cc at gmail.com Mon Nov 1 18:28:26 2010 From: scanning.cc at gmail.com (alan canning) Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2010 16:28:26 -0700 Subject: TTL HEX LED driver chip In-Reply-To: <9be7b81f6df8d97a7dc58454dbb78bab@cs.ubc.ca> References: <4CC85C37.1029.1FD4634@cclist.sydex.com> <4CC98558.24409.17FDC01@cclist.sydex.com> <7f3cbf42b811f6e7963fbe47c336bae4@cs.ubc.ca> <05789c399001ae170d72be50c5b4bd8d@cs.ubc.ca> <9be7b81f6df8d97a7dc58454dbb78bab@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: On Mon, Nov 1, 2010 at 1:02 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > On 2010 Nov 1, at 10:23 AM, Dan Roganti wrote: > >> On Mon, Nov 1, 2010 at 3:10 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: >> >>> >>> Neat suggestion to modify the existing A-F displays, but once you have >>> the >>> '138 and a bunch of diodes you could just revert to the technique of >>> generating 8-F, and get by with 2 chips (247,138), 1 inverter (to disable >>> the 247 for >=8), and diodes. >>> >>> The use of the 4066 does present a problem for direct drive of the LEDs: >>> ON >>> resistance of the transmission gates is on the order of hundreds of ohms >>> (with considerable variability over devices and temp). >>> >>> oh yea, that would make it only 3chips - we have a winner ! >> Although the utliz.of the inverter chip is very low. >> You could always just use a transistor. >> I just didn't want to leave the '247 abandoned ;) >> >> The on resistance of the 4066 (~80ohm) is way less than the 4016(~200ohm) >> - >> which is why I chose that one - but marginally higher when operating a the >> lower 5volts. But you could still compensate by lowering the LED resister >> to >> keep it just as bright. >> > > We must have different specs at hand (different manufacturers perhaps): > Fairchild'76 says 270 ohms typ, 1000 max at 5V/25C, Harris'92 says 470-1050. > Even if you account for the R in the LED drop R, part of the problem is the > variability between devices, even though intra-device variability is low. > Based on the specs I have power dissipation may also be an issue once you're > pushing current through that internal R (100mW max per switch). > > > I never rule out CMOS :) >> > > My experience with quad bi-lateral transmission gates is the typical on resistance is more likely around 1000 Ohms. I must admit I have not read thru all the posts so if somebody else suggested this my apologies. Why not a one chip solution; use a 74S188 and program whatever you want the character set to be (i.e. hook or no hook on 6s, etc. )? Best regards, Steven From cclist at sydex.com Mon Nov 1 19:00:36 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 01 Nov 2010 17:00:36 -0700 Subject: TTL HEX LED driver chip In-Reply-To: References: <4CC85C37.1029.1FD4634@cclist.sydex.com>, <9be7b81f6df8d97a7dc58454dbb78bab@cs.ubc.ca>, Message-ID: <4CCEF234.19101.18F2FF4@cclist.sydex.com> On 1 Nov 2010 at 16:28, alan canning wrote: > I must admit I have not read thru all the posts so if somebody else > suggested this my apologies. Why not a one chip solution; use a 74S188 > and program whatever you want the character set to be (i.e. hook or no > hook on 6s, etc. )? That's where we started. Tony wanted to see what the minimum in combinatorial logic would be. To date, I've not seen a solution that doesn't use decoders or demuxes, just AND OR and NOT elements. Anyone care to give that a crack and see what the optimal case is using SSI TTL--say, nothing more complex than a 7486? --Chuck From silent700 at gmail.com Mon Nov 1 19:29:24 2010 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2010 19:29:24 -0500 Subject: CCC: New Docs Uploaded Message-ID: Trying to get back into the scanning groove - got shelves of manuals that need to become bits instead of paper. These two aren't going to burn up the Internets but they're now merged with the digital infinite: Land Innovation Site Computation and Design for HP 86/87: http://chiclassiccomp.org/docs/index.php?dir=%2Fcomputing/LandInnovation An unknown, unsourced disassembler dump of the SOL20 boot ROM: http://chiclassiccomp.org/docs/index.php?dir=%2Fcomputing/ProcessorTechnology Neither of these were original documents and were in somewhat bad shape, so the originals are out the door. Other stuff I'm scanning I will keep as relics, but most will be offered up (most for free) after they're scanned. -j -- silent700.blogspot.com Retrocomputing and collecting in the Chicago area: http://chiclassiccomp.org From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Mon Nov 1 20:41:57 2010 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2010 17:41:57 -0800 Subject: TTL HEX LED driver chip In-Reply-To: <4CCEF234.19101.18F2FF4@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4CC85C37.1029.1FD4634@cclist.sydex.com>, <9be7b81f6df8d97a7dc58454dbb78bab@cs.ubc.ca>, <4CCEF234.19101.18F2FF4@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <102b6bfe19faec58096b680facf83ce8@cs.ubc.ca> On 2010 Nov 1, at 4:00 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Tony wanted to see what the minimum in > combinatorial logic would be. To date, I've not seen a solution that > doesn't use decoders or demuxes, just AND OR and NOT elements. > > Anyone care to give that a crack and see what the optimal case is > using SSI TTL--say, nothing more complex than a 7486? Well, a starting point could be to replace the 74154 in the 1-of-16 decoder solution with 4 inverters and 16 4-in nands (9 packages), plus the 4 packages remaining of that solution to do the segment selection, gives 13 packages. Optimisation anyone? From cclist at sydex.com Mon Nov 1 20:35:16 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 01 Nov 2010 18:35:16 -0700 Subject: TTL HEX LED driver chip In-Reply-To: <102b6bfe19faec58096b680facf83ce8@cs.ubc.ca> References: <4CC85C37.1029.1FD4634@cclist.sydex.com>, <4CCEF234.19101.18F2FF4@cclist.sydex.com>, <102b6bfe19faec58096b680facf83ce8@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <4CCF0864.3902.1E5DBD2@cclist.sydex.com> On 1 Nov 2010 at 17:41, Brent Hilpert wrote: > Well, a starting point could be to replace the 74154 in the 1-of-16 > decoder solution with 4 inverters and 16 4-in nands (9 packages), plus > the 4 packages remaining of that solution to do the segment selection, > gives 13 packages. Optimisation anyone? I'll eliminate some of the grunt work for folks and offer the following document, which contains all of the Karnaugh maps and a simple logic diagram. http://www.strivingafterwind.com/EE/EE112/ee112formal.pdf I'd probably start by using a 7404 and distribute the binary input and its complement... :) --Chuck From scanning.cc at gmail.com Mon Nov 1 21:11:33 2010 From: scanning.cc at gmail.com (alan canning) Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2010 19:11:33 -0700 Subject: TTL HEX LED driver chip In-Reply-To: <4CCF0864.3902.1E5DBD2@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4CC85C37.1029.1FD4634@cclist.sydex.com> <4CCEF234.19101.18F2FF4@cclist.sydex.com> <102b6bfe19faec58096b680facf83ce8@cs.ubc.ca> <4CCF0864.3902.1E5DBD2@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Nov 1, 2010 at 6:35 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 1 Nov 2010 at 17:41, Brent Hilpert wrote: > > > > Well, a starting point could be to replace the 74154 in the 1-of-16 > > decoder solution with 4 inverters and 16 4-in nands (9 packages), plus > > the 4 packages remaining of that solution to do the segment selection, > > gives 13 packages. Optimisation anyone? > > I'll eliminate some of the grunt work for folks and offer the > following document, which contains all of the Karnaugh maps and a > simple logic diagram. > > http://www.strivingafterwind.com/EE/EE112/ee112formal.pdf > > I'd probably start by using a 7404 and distribute the binary input > and its complement... :) > > --Chuck > > > > In college I designed a BCD to 7 segment driver using fewer chips than the convention used by looking at the problem from the other direction. For most of the digits more of the segments are on than off, so I designed a circuit to turn segments OFF instead of ON. Try it !! Might get the parts count down for this one also. I'll give it a shot when I get a few spare minutes. Just started a new job after being OFF for two years. Best regards, Steven From dkelvey at hotmail.com Tue Nov 2 00:14:07 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2010 22:14:07 -0700 Subject: Repairing core memories.... In-Reply-To: <2D67381F4B0B453CAC4FEECA99663745@vl420mt> References: , <2D67381F4B0B453CAC4FEECA99663745@vl420mt> Message-ID: > From: dm561 at torfree.net > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Repairing core memories.... > Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2010 11:54:47 -0500 > > Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2010 14:22:35 -0400 (EDT) > From: "O. Sharp" > Subject: Re: Repairing core memories.... > > On Sun, 31 Oct 2010, Jos Dreesen wrote: > > > So I have these 2 PDP-8/L core stacks I am trying to recover: > > > > One would be perfect, if bit 3 @ adr 0 would be alive... > > Although this is 99.99% OK, it is of course not good enough. > > > > I suspect I'm not the only one on the list who: > -thinks opening up a core-stack and repairing it is > theoretically possible; > -also thinks it would be a hell of a daunting project; > -is somewhat amazed at the dexterity and patience of the people > who originally hand-wired them at manufacture; and > -thinks pulling off a repair of a core-plane by rewiring it by > hand would give significant bragging rights. :) > > -O.- > +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > Agreed ;-) > > But if anybody does want to, I've got a small (220x16) MDS (Fabri-Tek) core > plane with an already damaged section, cut-off edge connectors etc. to > practice on; for even more fun I could even throw in a few of two different > sizes of raw cores... > > mike > Hi One does have to match the cores. For this you have no choice but to find a scrap core plane to get replacements from. Each core, even though the same physical size, has a different magnetic property. All the cores need to match. Having one from the same manufacture and time span is about the only way to get the desired results. Before I started reworking the core, I'd try swapping some of the external wires to make sure the problem moved with the core and not the address line drivers. Dwight From djg at quoth.pdp8online.com Mon Nov 1 07:00:39 2010 From: djg at quoth.pdp8online.com (David Gesswein) Date: Mon, 01 Nov 2010 08:00:39 -0400 Subject: Repairing core memories.... Message-ID: <201011011200.oA1C0dPo009411@quoth.pdp8online.com> >So I have these 2 PDP-8/L core stacks I am trying to recover: > Is there any realistic way of getting one fully functional stack out of > these ? > I assume the 8/L core stack is the same as the 8/I. Its made up of 3 core plane boards and the 2 diode boards. If you can figure out if one of the planes in the really bad stack seems good you could swap it with the other stack. >One would be perfect, if bit 3 @ adr 0 would be alive... > If you haven't you may want to check memory current and strobe timing to see if its totally dead or can be adjusted back to working. From nathan at nathanpralle.com Mon Nov 1 09:15:27 2010 From: nathan at nathanpralle.com (Nathan Pralle) Date: Mon, 01 Nov 2010 09:15:27 -0500 Subject: TRS-80 Model II Manuals In-Reply-To: References: <4CCB0408.4030308@nathanpralle.com> Message-ID: <4CCECB7F.6010509@nathanpralle.com> On 10/29/2010 4:24 PM, Jason T wrote: > On Fri, Oct 29, 2010 at 12:27 PM, Nathan Pralle wrote: >> Thanks to the ever-useful JP Hindin, I've obtained a set of TRS-DOS disks >> and other application disks for my TRS-80 Model II system, which is the >> entire setup pictured here, plus a bit more: > Not to assume that anyone is running a disk-duping service for the > Model II, but I just acquired one recently also (just the main box, > not the whole table :) and I am without media of any sort. I've got a > lot of blank 8" disks, though, and would be happy to send them ahead > or trade them for something to boot the big grey beast. Once I have cleaned the drives properly and verified that the disks actually *work* and so forth, I'd be happy to make copy of the disks for anyone that wants them for the cost of shipping. I don't believe I have a lot of free 8" media so I think you'll have to provide that unless you're in a pinch, then let me know and I'll try to dig you up at least a TRS-DOS disk. Nathan -- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Nathan Pralle, Computer Geek Email: nathan at nathanpralle.com Web: http://www.nathanpralle.com Blog: http://www.philosyphia.com Twitter: http://twitter.com/NathanPralle -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- From chrise at pobox.com Mon Nov 1 10:29:50 2010 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2010 10:29:50 -0500 Subject: PDP-11/34A bring up Message-ID: <20101101152950.GF2158@n0jcf.net> I am the new keeper of the PDP-11/34A that Jack Rubin rescued a while ago and wrote about here, http://decpicted.blogspot.com/2010/01/pdp-1134a-data-systems-design-dsd-880.html I took it on a road trip from Chicago back to St. Paul after VCFMW in September. I've been doing a lot of cleanup on it and finally got to the point where I could power it on (just the CPU box) this weekend. I think now I need to learn about Grant Continuity ;-) There is a M9302 terminator installed in the last slot (left most when looking from the front of the machine) and also an M9312 in slot 4 (amoungst the CPU and cache cards). Two of the original boards are removed from the backplane... the DSD 808830 controller and the DILOG DU130 tape controller. They were in slots 12 and 13. I then also have an RL11 on hand but it is not currently installed in the machine. When I power up the machine, it immediately lights the RUN light on the KY11-B programmer's console. No matter what I do from that console, I cannot get it to exit RUN or print anything to the serial terminal. However, if I remove the M9302 terminator (a trick I found on some web page), then sure enough, I can HALT it, the RUN light goes out and I can do CTRL+BOOT and the serial terminal will spring to life with a register dump and the '@' prompt. I'm pretty sure that my problem is the empty slots 12 and 13 where boards used to be and should now have Grant Continuity cards installed instead... but I am curious why pulling the M9302 makes it "work". What is the mechanism at play there? I also suspect that I may have to look at the backplane wiring for slots 12 and 13 to put back whatever DMA jumpering might have been modified for the two cards that used to be there-- or, at least for one of them as I can probably put the RL11 into one of those slots and it requires DMA. Chris -- Chris Elmquist From nathan at nathanpralle.com Mon Nov 1 11:11:51 2010 From: nathan at nathanpralle.com (Nathan Pralle) Date: Mon, 01 Nov 2010 11:11:51 -0500 Subject: TRS-80 Model II Manuals In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CCEE6C7.2050307@nathanpralle.com> On 10/30/2010 1:47 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > More seriously, what model of Shugart8" drive? Are there not manuals for > them on bitsavers? > > -tony They probably are, that's a good point. I don't know yet; I have yet to yank them to find out. I'm going to try to dig out the machine this week. I want to make sure I clean the heads and so forth correctly and do all the alignment, etc. to make sure everything's in shape before I shove these disks in there, just in case something's off/corroded/etc. and I end up with a pile of ferrous shavings instead of data. ;) Nathan -- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Nathan Pralle, Computer Geek Email: nathan at nathanpralle.com Web: http://www.nathanpralle.com Blog: http://www.philosyphia.com Twitter: http://twitter.com/NathanPralle -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- From tingox at gmail.com Mon Nov 1 11:16:51 2010 From: tingox at gmail.com (Torfinn Ingolfsen) Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2010 17:16:51 +0100 Subject: DiscFerret: First working hardware, firmware and microcode! In-Reply-To: <4CCC6574.8010103@philpem.me.uk> References: <1288029241.9356.127.camel@cheetah> <4CCB28DA.8050509@bitsavers.org> <4CCBE2EB.4020404@philpem.me.uk> <4CCC4732.6080906@bitsavers.org> <4CCC6574.8010103@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: Hi, On Sat, Oct 30, 2010 at 8:35 PM, Philip Pemberton wrote: > On 30/10/10 17:26, Al Kossow wrote: > >> If it's going to be an adapter, could you add holes for SA1000-style 8" >> drives (50pin/20pin cabling)? >> > > I almost mistook that for a floppy drive until I looked it up on > Bitsavers...! > Does this imply that the DiscFerret will support 8 inch floppy drives? (I'm hoping it does...) -- Regards, Torfinn Ingolfsen From tingox at gmail.com Mon Nov 1 12:07:11 2010 From: tingox at gmail.com (Torfinn Ingolfsen) Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2010 18:07:11 +0100 Subject: classiccmp web site mirrors? Message-ID: Hello, As I still can't reach the classiccmp web site - are there mirrors anywhere? (I have the same problem with bitsavers.org, luckily most mirrors works) HAND -- Regards, Torfinn Ingolfsen From jws at jwsss.com Mon Nov 1 12:11:10 2010 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Mon, 01 Nov 2010 10:11:10 -0700 Subject: Repairing core memories.... In-Reply-To: References: <4CCD4C3D.30007@bluewin.ch>, , <4CCD5D45.24209.7E43DA@cclist.sydex.com>, , , <4CCD9CD4.23319.1768A24@cclist.sydex.com>, <4CCE0C32.5060701@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <4CCEF4AE.9020908@jwsss.com> > Hi > YOu mean ns, not us. 1000us is one millisecond. That is not > too fast. yep > I wonder what the failure mode is. It would almost have to be > that the cores cracked from thermal stress. the cores would nor fail, the inhibit circuit's load resistors would set the phenolic on fire. > I can't imagine > the magnetic properties changing otherwise. > A tiny air gap would make the cores hard to magnetize. > Dwight > > From snhirsch at gmail.com Mon Nov 1 16:53:13 2010 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2010 17:53:13 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Large geometry MFM drive testing In-Reply-To: <4CCE9B64.153.3AF543@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4CCD41A5.8728.125D5A@cclist.sydex.com>, <4CCE9B64.153.3AF543@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 1 Nov 2010, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 31 Oct 2010 at 16:03, Steven Hirsch wrote: > >> Ok, but I still need to know the procedure and appropriate utility to >> surface-test the drives. The mapping you describe appears to be a >> low-level notion that is not mapped to anything in DOS fdisk and/or >> Spinrite. > > Have you tried installing Spinrite's DDO? That could get you there > regardless of what the native BIOS says. I don't recall if this will > work on MFM drives or not. I don't know what 'DDO' is, unfortunately. > My point was that your PCs BIOS probably doesn't know about the > borrowed cylinder bits dodge--and your controller doesn't have its > own BIOS on-board. > > You could also look around for a controller with its own BIOS to > support large MFM drives--they weren't terribly uncommon. Apparently. I've never seen such a thing for MFM drives. -- From mark at wickensonline.co.uk Mon Nov 1 19:54:22 2010 From: mark at wickensonline.co.uk (Mark Wickens) Date: Tue, 02 Nov 2010 00:54:22 +0000 Subject: Possible Failed H7868 PSU In-Reply-To: <015501cb7a12$71c0eca0$5542c5e0$@ntlworld.com> References: <014201cb7a08$a479bdc0$ed6d3940$@ntlworld.com> from "Rob Jarratt" at Nov 1, 10 09:06:22 pm <015501cb7a12$71c0eca0$5542c5e0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <4CCF613E.6080805@wickensonline.co.uk> Hi Rob, From my limited experience I would say please check the PCB around the heaviest items on the board, clearly typically the transformer. The 4000/60 wouldn't power up (with noticeable noise) and I found that the solder joint on one of the pins had broken. This took extracting the pcb from the enclosure which mean unsoldering the inlet wires, but clearly it was worth it in the end ;) Regards, Mark. From csquared3 at tx.rr.com Tue Nov 2 00:31:10 2010 From: csquared3 at tx.rr.com (Charlie Carothers) Date: Tue, 02 Nov 2010 00:31:10 -0500 Subject: Happy Birthday VAX 11/780 (influence of) In-Reply-To: <20101027141117.K13721@shell.lmi.net> References: <4CC7C925.2010000@softjar.se> <20101027141117.K13721@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4CCFA21E.8020204@tx.rr.com> On 10/27/2010 4:20 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > My memories from ~1968 are not very clear, and definitions of > memory-mapped I/O may vary, . . . > Didn't the 1401 sort-of have it? Not fully automatic memory-mapped I/O > such as the TRS80 and PC video RAM, more like the CP/M and PC's PSP DTAs. > I seem to recall there being a command to read a card into a fixed buffer > in memory, and another to write a card from anbother fixed buffer. I > remember "cheating" and using those buffer spaces when I ran short of > space writing short programs on the 1401 emulator on the 1620. > If my dim memories are correct that is correct for the 1402 card reader and punch connected to a 1401. I'm pretty sure the 1403 printer also had a separate fixed address output buffer as well. I think mag tape could be read to or written from anywhere. I think "read a card", "punch a card" and "print a line" were pretty much single character instructions, though I think there were additional modifier characters in some cases for things like pocket selection, etc. I could go dig out my programmer's reference card if anyone really cares, which I seriously doubt. :-) The earliest example of memory mapped I/O in a general purpose sense for me was the Motorola 6800, but Wiki says that was introduced in 1974 and I suppose that is too late for what we were discussing. ISTR in our hardware design the ACIA's etc. were just decoded at some memory address range in the 6800's memory address space, and one used an ordinary "store register contents at memory address" instruction to write to the peripheral registers for example. > Strange, . . . > I remember more about that than I do about PDQ FORTRAN on the 1620, nor > about "141 SPS"? on the 1401. Ah yes, good old Symbolic Programming System, I think. I don't recall seeing specifically the terminology "141 SPS", but it has been quite a while! SPS was just an assembler as I recall. I don't believe there was a linker. I think every program just had an absolute start address (usually above the printer buffer, though not required if you wished to "cheat") and SPS punched an executable deck that could then be loaded and executed. If your program never punched or printed, you could start your code just above the card reader buffer which I think was at 0-79. Later, Charlie C. > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com > > > > > From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Tue Nov 2 04:13:08 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Tue, 02 Nov 2010 09:13:08 +0000 Subject: Amstrad 3in drive spares Message-ID: <4CCFD624.5070008@philpem.me.uk> Hi guys, I've just acquired a pair of 3-inch Amstrad floppy drives, apparently from a CPC (they're fitted with black faceplates). One is an EME-231, the other is apparently an EME-156 (someone's blanked out the model number with a Sharpie). Problem is, the 156 has a snapped drive belt, and the 231 belt feels REALLY loose. (They also look like they've been stored in a dusty box for a few years, but that's a problem for later...) Does anyone have a couple of spare belts for these, or a lead on a source who'll sell me a couple of them without wanting to charge me some silly amount of postage on top? Thanks, -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From rogpugh at mac.com Tue Nov 2 05:15:42 2010 From: rogpugh at mac.com (Roger Pugh) Date: Tue, 02 Nov 2010 10:15:42 +0000 Subject: Amstrad 3in drive spares In-Reply-To: <4CCFD624.5070008@philpem.me.uk> References: <4CCFD624.5070008@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4CCFE4CE.5080308@mac.com> On 11/02/2010 09:13, Philip Pemberton wrote: > > Does anyone have a couple of spare belts for these, or a lead on a > source who'll sell me a couple of them without wanting to charge me > some silly amount of postage on top? > Flebay is the answer item 250660401268 or similar.. A bit fiddly to change but not too bad.. Roger From ats at offog.org Tue Nov 2 05:37:08 2010 From: ats at offog.org (Adam Sampson) Date: Tue, 02 Nov 2010 10:37:08 +0000 Subject: Amstrad 3in drive spares In-Reply-To: <4CCFD624.5070008@philpem.me.uk> (Philip Pemberton's message of "Tue, 02 Nov 2010 09:13:08 +0000") References: <4CCFD624.5070008@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: Philip Pemberton writes: > Does anyone have a couple of spare belts for these, When I needed to replace the belt in my CPC6128's drive in a hurry a couple of years ago, I found that the red rubber bands that the Royal Mail were using at the time were almost exactly the right size... (It worked well enough to load Batman, anyway!) -- Adam Sampson From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Tue Nov 2 05:54:49 2010 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 02 Nov 2010 05:54:49 -0500 Subject: Amstrad 3in drive spares In-Reply-To: References: <4CCFD624.5070008@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4CCFEDF9.4000402@gmail.com> Adam Sampson wrote: > Philip Pemberton writes: > >> Does anyone have a couple of spare belts for these, > > When I needed to replace the belt in my CPC6128's drive in a hurry a > couple of years ago, I found that the red rubber bands that the Royal > Mail were using at the time were almost exactly the right size... > > (It worked well enough to load Batman, anyway!) Yeah, they'll do the job. I'm told that they can accelerate wear on the drive components compared to an original belt, but for light use I don't think it's really an issue. cheers Jules From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Tue Nov 2 06:16:32 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Tue, 02 Nov 2010 11:16:32 +0000 Subject: Amstrad 3in drive spares In-Reply-To: <4CCFE4CE.5080308@mac.com> References: <4CCFD624.5070008@philpem.me.uk> <4CCFE4CE.5080308@mac.com> Message-ID: <4CCFF310.90603@philpem.me.uk> On 02/11/10 10:15, Roger Pugh wrote: > Flebay is the answer > > item 250660401268 or similar.. A bit fiddly to change but not too bad.. A pack of five for eight quid, eh? Well, it's cheaper than CPC or Donberg... Cheers for the link. Now I just need to fix the PCB on the 231 (some idiot has gone and ripped a few tracks and pads off the board) and steal some parts (a PCB mounting screw!) from the 156... Given its wiring, I suspect SW1 is the drive select switch (it isn't fitted on either of my drives). What I don't get is why it's got three pins plus common. Common goes to the "SELECT" input on the controller chip, 1 goes to /SEL1 (pin 4), 2 apparently goes to /SEL0, and 3 carries the READY signal from the drive (?!). JP1 allows SEL0 and SELECT to be bridged without the switch present. The only way this would make sense is if switch pin 3 was open-circuit... -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Tue Nov 2 06:17:17 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Tue, 02 Nov 2010 11:17:17 +0000 Subject: Amstrad 3in drive spares In-Reply-To: References: <4CCFD624.5070008@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4CCFF33D.10705@philpem.me.uk> On 02/11/10 10:37, Adam Sampson wrote: > When I needed to replace the belt in my CPC6128's drive in a hurry a > couple of years ago, I found that the red rubber bands that the Royal > Mail were using at the time were almost exactly the right size... Hmm, there's about half a dozen of those in a jam jar downstairs.... Well bugger me, it fits! Now I just need to find a suitable 26-way IDC plug. Though I'll probably cheat and use a 34 -- Maplins don't stock 26w IDCs, and there's enough clearance on the back of the drive for a 34 to (just about) fit. > (It worked well enough to load Batman, anyway!) LOL! Thanks, -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From ragooman at gmail.com Tue Nov 2 08:03:41 2010 From: ragooman at gmail.com (Dan Roganti) Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2010 09:03:41 -0400 Subject: TTL HEX LED driver chip In-Reply-To: <9be7b81f6df8d97a7dc58454dbb78bab@cs.ubc.ca> References: <4CC85C37.1029.1FD4634@cclist.sydex.com> <4CC98558.24409.17FDC01@cclist.sydex.com> <7f3cbf42b811f6e7963fbe47c336bae4@cs.ubc.ca> <05789c399001ae170d72be50c5b4bd8d@cs.ubc.ca> <9be7b81f6df8d97a7dc58454dbb78bab@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: On Mon, Nov 1, 2010 at 4:02 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > On 2010 Nov 1, at 10:23 AM, Dan Roganti wrote: > >> On Mon, Nov 1, 2010 at 3:10 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: >> >>> >>> Neat suggestion to modify the existing A-F displays, but once you have >>> the >>> '138 and a bunch of diodes you could just revert to the technique of >>> generating 8-F, and get by with 2 chips (247,138), 1 inverter (to disable >>> the 247 for >=8), and diodes. >>> >>> The use of the 4066 does present a problem for direct drive of the LEDs: >>> ON >>> resistance of the transmission gates is on the order of hundreds of ohms >>> (with considerable variability over devices and temp). >>> >>> oh yea, that would make it only 3chips - we have a winner ! >> Although the utliz.of the inverter chip is very low. >> You could always just use a transistor. >> I just didn't want to leave the '247 abandoned ;) >> >> The on resistance of the 4066 (~80ohm) is way less than the 4016(~200ohm) >> - >> which is why I chose that one - but marginally higher when operating a the >> lower 5volts. But you could still compensate by lowering the LED resister >> to >> keep it just as bright. >> > > We must have different specs at hand (different manufacturers perhaps): > Fairchild'76 says 270 ohms typ, 1000 max at 5V/25C, Harris'92 says 470-1050. > oh yes, I was preoccupied with the diode matrix, I neglected good ol' ohm's law on the 4066. There is another digital switch around - the 4066 was an ol' favorite - with enough power that would replace this , I've seen them in the mouser catalog. > Even if you account for the R in the LED drop R, part of the problem is the > variability between devices, even though intra-device variability is low. > Based on the specs I have power dissipation may also be an issue once you're > pushing current through that internal R (100mW max per switch). > > But I like the last solution even more, 2 chips, 74247, 74138, transistor inverter, a few diodes, viola ! Rube Goldberg would be proud ;) You can't rule out discretes ! =Dan --http://www.vintagecomputer.net/ragooman/ From cclist at sydex.com Tue Nov 2 08:10:58 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 02 Nov 2010 06:10:58 -0700 Subject: Happy Birthday VAX 11/780 (influence of) In-Reply-To: <4CCFA21E.8020204@tx.rr.com> References: , <20101027141117.K13721@shell.lmi.net>, <4CCFA21E.8020204@tx.rr.com> Message-ID: <4CCFAB72.26761.1083E7@cclist.sydex.com> On 2 Nov 2010 at 0:31, Charlie Carothers wrote: > Ah yes, good old Symbolic Programming System, I think. I don't recall > seeing specifically the terminology "1401 SPS", but it has been quite a > while! SPS was just an assembler as I recall. I don't believe there > was a linker. SPS was the name of the assembler on a few other IBM systems; also the 1620. Later versions had a linker so you could combine SPS with FORTRAN. The 1311 disk added a lot of capability, including JCL of sorts. (starting decks off with record-mark record-mark JOB, etc.). The options control statements to SPS, I recall, were uncharacteristically non-terse. e.g. "PUNCH SYMBOL TABLE". No memory-mapped I/O on the 1620, unless you want to count pressing the LOAD button that would (numerically) read a card or paper tape record into 0-79. It's odd, but I can still remember most of the machine opcodes and an I/O instruction or two (e.g. 34 00000 00107, ISTR was the command to return the carriage on the console typewriter). Now, I can't remember where I left my glasses two minutes ago... I suspect that much of the same talent that wrote the system software for the 1401 also did it for the 1620. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Tue Nov 2 08:32:36 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 02 Nov 2010 06:32:36 -0700 Subject: Large geometry MFM drive testing In-Reply-To: References: , <4CCE9B64.153.3AF543@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4CCFB084.5672.2450FF@cclist.sydex.com> On 1 Nov 2010 at 17:53, Steven Hirsch wrote: > I don't know what 'DDO' is, unfortunately. Dynamic Drive Overlay. A way of dealing with drives larger than supported by the BIOS. Basically, enhanced BIOS support for the drive was written as a boot record on the first track, which would then be "hidden" to normal applications. SpeedStor was one such package; there were others, such as Ontrack Disk Manager. However, the easiest way was to use a controller with its own BIOS. CMS, WD and SMS made them. Note that there is nothing in the MFM controller itself that prevents accessing cylinders past 1023. I've offered you a driver for cylinders 1024-1223 that I used on a big Priam hard drive with 16 heads if you'd just like to see if your drive works. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Tue Nov 2 08:36:07 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 02 Nov 2010 06:36:07 -0700 Subject: Amstrad 3in drive spares In-Reply-To: <4CCFD624.5070008@philpem.me.uk> References: <4CCFD624.5070008@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4CCFB157.27558.27887B@cclist.sydex.com> On 2 Nov 2010 at 9:13, Philip Pemberton wrote: > Hi guys, > > I've just acquired a pair of 3-inch Amstrad floppy drives, apparently > from a CPC (they're fitted with black faceplates). One is an EME-231, > the other is apparently an EME-156 (someone's blanked out the model > number with a Sharpie). A word of caution here--observe that the 4-pin power connector looks exactly like a standard 3.5" conector, but the +12 and +5 leads are interchanged. If you try to use a power connector wired for a 3.5" drive, you'll make magic smoke. I've had lots of good success with the 2" plastibands, available from some stationers, as a drive belt replacement. It's doesn't flex like a rubber band. --Chuck From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Tue Nov 2 08:51:58 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Tue, 02 Nov 2010 13:51:58 +0000 Subject: Amstrad 3in drive spares In-Reply-To: <4CCFB157.27558.27887B@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4CCFD624.5070008@philpem.me.uk> <4CCFB157.27558.27887B@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4CD0177E.5060508@philpem.me.uk> On 02/11/10 13:36, Chuck Guzis wrote: > A word of caution here--observe that the 4-pin power connector looks > exactly like a standard 3.5" conector, but the +12 and +5 leads are > interchanged. If you try to use a power connector wired for a 3.5" > drive, you'll make magic smoke. So I noticed... but not before wiring up the EME231 with +5 and +12 reversed. Thankfully the magic smoke didn't escape, but the motor refused to spin, and the controller chip got *really* *really* *hot*. Fixed the cable and now the motor, activity LED and so on are working. Unfortunately all I have are blank discs, so I have no way to tell if the total lack of /RDDATA transitions means I've blown the read amp, or if it's just because the discs are blank. Thanks, -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From christian_liendo at yahoo.com Tue Nov 2 11:56:47 2010 From: christian_liendo at yahoo.com (Christian Liendo) Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2010 09:56:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Commodore 64 on Craigslist. Message-ID: <234694.8943.qm@web113520.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> http://8bitaficionado.com/2010/11/02/commodore-64-err-hmm-ugh-amusing-craigslist-ad/ This is the original advertisement http://longisland.craigslist.org/sys/2028894979.html I figured someone will enjoy this. BTW: Please don't call harass the guy who owns this. From ragooman at gmail.com Tue Nov 2 12:09:25 2010 From: ragooman at gmail.com (Dan Roganti) Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2010 13:09:25 -0400 Subject: TTL HEX LED driver chip In-Reply-To: <4CCEF234.19101.18F2FF4@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4CC85C37.1029.1FD4634@cclist.sydex.com> <9be7b81f6df8d97a7dc58454dbb78bab@cs.ubc.ca> <4CCEF234.19101.18F2FF4@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Nov 1, 2010 at 8:00 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > On 1 Nov 2010 at 16:28, alan canning wrote: > > > I must admit I have not read thru all the posts so if somebody else > > suggested this my apologies. Why not a one chip solution; use a 74S188 > > and program whatever you want the character set to be (i.e. hook or no > > hook on 6s, etc. )? > > That's where we started. ?Tony wanted to see what the minimum in > combinatorial logic would be. ?To date, I've not seen a solution that > doesn't use decoders or demuxes, just AND OR and NOT elements. > > Anyone care to give that a crack and see what the optimal case is > using SSI TTL--say, nothing more complex than a 7486? > I bet you enjoy changing the rules :) Ok, but you didn't say >only< --- or no diodes ;) > > I'll eliminate some of the grunt work for folks and offer the > following document, which contains all of the Karnaugh maps and a > simple logic diagram. > > http://www.strivingafterwind.com/EE/EE112/ee112formal.pdf > > I'd probably start by using a 7404 and distribute the binary input > and its complement... :) > oh gee, thanks :) try this http://tinyurl.com/2fjfnm5 excuse google for using a rather obtuse url for linking simple files =Dan --http://www.vintagecomputer.net/ragooman/ From jbmcb1 at gmail.com Tue Nov 2 12:17:23 2010 From: jbmcb1 at gmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2010 13:17:23 -0400 Subject: Commodore 64 on Craigslist. In-Reply-To: <234694.8943.qm@web113520.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <234694.8943.qm@web113520.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: As bad as eBay is, Craigslist seems to be worse. My favorite listings approximate this: FOR SALE Dell laptop. Pentium. 20G. Internet. Has windows and some games. Runs great $200 On Tue, Nov 2, 2010 at 12:56 PM, Christian Liendo < christian_liendo at yahoo.com> wrote: > > http://8bitaficionado.com/2010/11/02/commodore-64-err-hmm-ugh-amusing-craigslist-ad/ > > > This is the original advertisement > http://longisland.craigslist.org/sys/2028894979.html > > I figured someone will enjoy this. BTW: Please don't call harass the guy > who owns this. > > > > > From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Nov 2 12:27:45 2010 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 02 Nov 2010 10:27:45 -0700 Subject: surplus source for MRA connectors? Message-ID: <4CD04A11.7040308@bitsavers.org> In particular, the MRA42P solder cup 42 pin "winchester" plug for Diablo 31 disk drives. parts scalpers are asking $75 ea, and have made web searching useless looks like on-line surplus store catalogs have all but disappeared From IanK at vulcan.com Tue Nov 2 12:30:56 2010 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2010 10:30:56 -0700 Subject: PDP-11/34A bring up In-Reply-To: <20101101152950.GF2158@n0jcf.net> References: <20101101152950.GF2158@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chris Elmquist > Sent: Monday, November 01, 2010 8:30 AM > To: Classic Computer Talk; Classic Computer Tech > Subject: PDP-11/34A bring up > > I am the new keeper of the PDP-11/34A that Jack Rubin rescued a while > ago and wrote about here, > > http://decpicted.blogspot.com/2010/01/pdp-1134a-data-systems-design- > dsd-880.html > > I took it on a road trip from Chicago back to St. Paul after VCFMW > in September. Congratulations! The 11/34 is a good mid-size machine. I run UNIX 6th Ed. on mine. > > I've been doing a lot of cleanup on it and finally got to the point > where I could power it on (just the CPU box) this weekend. > > I think now I need to learn about Grant Continuity ;-) > > There is a M9302 terminator installed in the last slot (left most when > looking from the front of the machine) and also an M9312 in slot 4 > (amoungst the CPU and cache cards). > > Two of the original boards are removed from the backplane... the DSD > 808830 controller and the DILOG DU130 tape controller. They were in > slots 12 and 13. > > I then also have an RL11 on hand but it is not currently installed in > the machine. > > When I power up the machine, it immediately lights the RUN light on the > KY11-B programmer's console. No matter what I do from that console, I > cannot get it to exit RUN or print anything to the serial terminal. > > However, if I remove the M9302 terminator (a trick I found on some web > page), then sure enough, I can HALT it, the RUN light goes out and I > can > do CTRL+BOOT and the serial terminal will spring to life with a > register > dump and the '@' prompt. > > I'm pretty sure that my problem is the empty slots 12 and 13 where > boards > used to be and should now have Grant Continuity cards installed > instead... > but I am curious why pulling the M9302 makes it "work". What is the > mechanism at play there? > > I also suspect that I may have to look at the backplane wiring for > slots > 12 and 13 to put back whatever DMA jumpering might have been modified > for > the two cards that used to be there-- or, at least for one of them as > I can probably put the RL11 into one of those slots and it requires > DMA. > I agree that it's probably the grant continuity problem that's tripping you up - although I'm not sure why removing the far terminator gives you at least partial functionality. But whatever.... It's almost certain that both of those cards use DMA. There are two grant lines to worry about: there is the Bus Grant line for processor-mediated transfers and the Non-Processor Grant (NPG) line for what we now call DMA. There are two types of continuity cards: the G727 that passes the BG signal and the G7272, which passes both the BG and NPG signal. The larger card isn't as easy to find, but you can also rejumper CA1 to CB1 on the backplane and then use a G727. -- Ian UNIX is user friendly. It's just selective about who its friends are. Ian S. King, Sr. Vintage Systems Engineer Living Computer Museum A project of Vulcan, Inc. http://www.livingcomputermuseum.org From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Nov 2 12:33:37 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2010 13:33:37 -0400 Subject: surplus source for MRA connectors? In-Reply-To: <4CD04A11.7040308@bitsavers.org> References: <4CD04A11.7040308@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: > In particular, the MRA42P solder cup 42 pin "winchester" plug for > Diablo 31 disk drives. I am too busy to look up in my catalogs, so send me a picture or two. I have craploads of new and used Winchesters. > looks like on-line surplus store catalogs have all but disappeared I will probably reopen mine in a few months. -- Will From dm561 at torfree.net Tue Nov 2 13:33:27 2010 From: dm561 at torfree.net (MikeS) Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2010 13:33:27 -0500 Subject: TTL HEX LED driver chip References: Message-ID: Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2010 09:03:41 -0400 From: Dan Roganti Subject: Re: TTL HEX LED driver chip >But I like the last solution even more, 2 chips, 74247, 74138, transistor >inverter, a few diodes, viola ! ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ There's that ubiquitous string instrument again (I guess if it were a girl's name it'd be in caps?), mysteriously in reference to a hexadecimal display this time... ;-) From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Nov 2 12:38:15 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 02 Nov 2010 13:38:15 -0400 Subject: surplus store catalogs, was Re: surplus source for MRA connectors? In-Reply-To: <4CD04A11.7040308@bitsavers.org> References: <4CD04A11.7040308@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4CD04C87.50808@neurotica.com> On 11/2/10 1:27 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > parts scalpers are asking $75 ea, and have made web searching useless I HATE that shit. > looks like on-line surplus store catalogs have all but disappeared Oh good heavens, no. Here's my list, by no means complete, but I make note of them as I run across them: http://www.bgmicro.com http://www.unicornelectronics.com http://www.arcadecomponents.com http://www.epromman.com http://www.alltronics.com http://www.futurebots.com http://www.mpja.com http://www.skycraftsurplus.com http://www.cascadesurplus.com http://www.surplusgizmos.com http://www.goldmine-elec.com http://www.halted.com http://www.timeline-inc.com http://www.allelectronics.com http://www.tubesandmore.com http://www.excesssolutions.com http://www.smcelectronics.com -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From dm561 at torfree.net Tue Nov 2 13:38:44 2010 From: dm561 at torfree.net (MikeS) Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2010 13:38:44 -0500 Subject: Amstrad 3in drive spares References: Message-ID: Date: Tue, 02 Nov 2010 06:36:07 -0700 From: "Chuck Guzis" Subject: Re: Amstrad 3in drive spares >A word of caution here--observe that the 4-pin power connector looks exactly like a standard 3.5" conector, but the +12 and +5 leads are interchanged. If you try to use a power connector wired for a 3.5" drive, you'll make magic smoke. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ WHOA! Now that's a pretty harsh way of making sure folks only use your proprietary drive... From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Tue Nov 2 12:51:33 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2010 15:51:33 -0200 Subject: surplus source for MRA connectors? References: <4CD04A11.7040308@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <27ef01cb7ab7$9754c4f0$6600a8c0@portajara> Al, if you use firefox, install "surfclarity" plugin and isolate ALL the sellers from the google search. It works for me! :o) --- Enviado do meu Motorola PT550 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Al Kossow" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, November 02, 2010 3:27 PM Subject: surplus source for MRA connectors? > In particular, the MRA42P solder cup 42 pin "winchester" plug for > Diablo 31 disk drives. > > parts scalpers are asking $75 ea, and have made web searching useless > > looks like on-line surplus store catalogs have all but disappeared > > > From cclist at sydex.com Tue Nov 2 13:04:07 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 02 Nov 2010 11:04:07 -0700 Subject: TTL HEX LED driver chip In-Reply-To: References: <4CC85C37.1029.1FD4634@cclist.sydex.com>, <4CCEF234.19101.18F2FF4@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4CCFF027.4784.EAED1D@cclist.sydex.com> On 2 Nov 2010 at 13:09, Dan Roganti wrote: > I bet you enjoy changing the rules :) > Ok, but you didn't say >only< --- or no diodes ;) Hey, do want a challenge or not? And NO DIODES! --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Tue Nov 2 13:06:31 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 02 Nov 2010 11:06:31 -0700 Subject: TTL HEX LED driver chip In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: <4CCFF0B7.3649.ED1E83@cclist.sydex.com> On 2 Nov 2010 at 13:33, MikeS wrote: > There's that ubiquitous string instrument again (I guess if it were a > girl's name it'd be in caps?), mysteriously in reference to a > hexadecimal display this time... I've long wondered if the Germans exclaim "Bratsche!" --Chuck (not giving in to repeating a very long list of viola jokes) From jdr_use at bluewin.ch Tue Nov 2 13:13:13 2010 From: jdr_use at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen) Date: Tue, 02 Nov 2010 19:13:13 +0100 Subject: Repairing core memories.... In-Reply-To: <201011011200.oA1C0dPo009411@quoth.pdp8online.com> References: <201011011200.oA1C0dPo009411@quoth.pdp8online.com> Message-ID: <4CD054B9.1010001@bluewin.ch> On 11/01/2010 01:00 PM, David Gesswein wrote: >> So I have these 2 PDP-8/L core stacks I am trying to recover: >> Is there any realistic way of getting one fully functional stack out of >> these ? >> >> > I assume the 8/L core stack is the same as the 8/I. Its made up of 3 core > plane boards and the 2 diode boards. If you can figure out if one of > the planes in the really bad stack seems good you could swap it with the > other stack. > This looks the most viable option, sine the cores will be the right size. The original stack works OK so I would think that the decoding / sense / inhibit circuitry must be OK. > >> One would be perfect, if bit 3 @ adr 0 would be alive... >> >> > If you haven't you may want to check memory current and strobe timing to see > if its totally dead or can be adjusted back to working. > I have not, but do not really want to tweak this because my original, good, stack may not like this. In fact, come to think of it, I might just leave that stack as is, since location 0 is reserved for the interrupt routine return address. And an unexpanded 8/L will not need this, or am I overlooking something ? Regards, Jos From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Nov 2 13:18:56 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2010 14:18:56 -0400 Subject: Repairing core memories.... In-Reply-To: <4CD054B9.1010001@bluewin.ch> References: <201011011200.oA1C0dPo009411@quoth.pdp8online.com> <4CD054B9.1010001@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: On 11/2/10, Jos Dreesen wrote: > In fact, come to think of it, I might just leave that stack as is, > since location 0 is reserved for the interrupt routine return address. > And an unexpanded 8/L will not need this, or am I overlooking something ? If you have the power-fail restart option, it will use locations 0 and 1 for PC and AC. -ethan From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Tue Nov 2 14:19:11 2010 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2010 11:19:11 -0800 Subject: TTL HEX LED driver chip In-Reply-To: <4CCF0864.3902.1E5DBD2@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4CC85C37.1029.1FD4634@cclist.sydex.com>, <4CCEF234.19101.18F2FF4@cclist.sydex.com>, <102b6bfe19faec58096b680facf83ce8@cs.ubc.ca> <4CCF0864.3902.1E5DBD2@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On 2010 Nov 1, at 5:35 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 1 Nov 2010 at 17:41, Brent Hilpert wrote: > > I'll eliminate some of the grunt work for folks and offer the > following document, which contains all of the Karnaugh maps and a > simple logic diagram. > > http://www.strivingafterwind.com/EE/EE112/ee112formal.pdf > > I'd probably start by using a 7404 and distribute the binary input > and its complement... :) Starting with those karnaugh maps (there's an error in the schematic), there is a solution with 10 packages: 1 7404 2 7408 7 74LS54 4 inverters to complement the inputs, 7 AOI for the segments, and 6 or 7 2-in AND to optimise and widen some of the AOI ANDs; utilisation of 9 & 1/6. Based on the solutions and suggestions from the list, I drew up some diagrams for the earlier problem: http://www3.telus.net/~bhilpert/tmp/7seg.gif A: 247,138 solution, suggested by several, optimised down to 5 14/16-pin packages B: 1-of-16 decoder with some optimisation, 5 packages (1 24-pin), suggested by James and Vincent, IIRC C: 247,253 data selectors solution suggested by Tony, 5 14/16-pin packages. From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Nov 2 13:20:32 2010 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 02 Nov 2010 11:20:32 -0700 Subject: ISO Century Data AMS 315 service manual Message-ID: <4CD05670.4010200@bitsavers.org> Haven't tried looking for this in a while, maybe one has shown up somewhere AMS 315 14" 300mb winchester service manual (circa 1982) preferably with Trident interface (SMD was more common) I'll be putting up the product manual and brochure for it on bitsavers today From ragooman at gmail.com Tue Nov 2 13:22:48 2010 From: ragooman at gmail.com (Dan Roganti) Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2010 14:22:48 -0400 Subject: TTL HEX LED driver chip In-Reply-To: <4CCFF0B7.3649.ED1E83@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4CCFF0B7.3649.ED1E83@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Nov 2, 2010 at 2:06 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 2 Nov 2010 at 13:33, MikeS wrote: > >> There's that ubiquitous string instrument again (I guess if it were a >> girl's name it'd be in caps?), mysteriously in reference to a >> hexadecimal display this time... > > I've long wondered if the Germans exclaim "Bratsche!" > > --Chuck > (not giving in to repeating a very long list of viola jokes) > isn't this attributed to deep seeded oppression of diodes versus just a typo ;) From ragooman at gmail.com Tue Nov 2 13:41:39 2010 From: ragooman at gmail.com (Dan Roganti) Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2010 14:41:39 -0400 Subject: TTL HEX LED driver chip In-Reply-To: References: <4CC85C37.1029.1FD4634@cclist.sydex.com> <4CCEF234.19101.18F2FF4@cclist.sydex.com> <102b6bfe19faec58096b680facf83ce8@cs.ubc.ca> <4CCF0864.3902.1E5DBD2@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Nov 2, 2010 at 3:19 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > > > Starting with those karnaugh maps (there's an error in the schematic), there > is a solution with 10 packages: > ? 1 ?7404 > ? 2 ?7408 > ? 7 ?74LS54 > 4 inverters to complement the inputs, 7 AOI for the segments, and 6 or 7 > 2-in AND to optimise and widen some of the AOI ANDs; utilisation of 9 & 1/6. > > Based on the solutions and suggestions from the list, I drew up some > diagrams for the earlier problem: > ? ? http://www3.telus.net/~bhilpert/tmp/7seg.gif > > ?A: 247,138 solution, suggested by several, > ? ? optimised down to 5 14/16-pin packages > ?B: 1-of-16 decoder with some optimisation, 5 packages (1 24-pin), > ? ? suggested by James and Vincent, IIRC > ?C: 247,253 data selectors solution suggested by Tony, > ? ? 5 14/16-pin packages. > > habl? SSI ? From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Tue Nov 2 13:43:22 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Tue, 02 Nov 2010 18:43:22 +0000 Subject: surplus source for MRA connectors? In-Reply-To: <27ef01cb7ab7$9754c4f0$6600a8c0@portajara> References: <4CD04A11.7040308@bitsavers.org> <27ef01cb7ab7$9754c4f0$6600a8c0@portajara> Message-ID: <4CD05BCA.4010206@philpem.me.uk> On 02/11/10 17:51, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > > Al, if you use firefox, install "surfclarity" plugin and isolate ALL the > sellers from the google search. It works for me! :o) Care to share your Surfclarity block list? :) -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Tue Nov 2 13:53:14 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2010 16:53:14 -0200 Subject: surplus source for MRA connectors? References: <4CD04A11.7040308@bitsavers.org><27ef01cb7ab7$9754c4f0$6600a8c0@portajara> <4CD05BCA.4010206@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <287501cb7abf$38d163e0$6600a8c0@portajara> >> Al, if you use firefox, install "surfclarity" plugin and isolate ALL the >> sellers from the google search. It works for me! :o) > Care to share your Surfclarity block list? :) Well, mine is comprised of mostly brazilian sellers, but as soon as I discover how to do it, I can share, no problem :) BTW, a "public pool" with a huge surfclarity block list would be great ;) From ragooman at gmail.com Tue Nov 2 13:53:20 2010 From: ragooman at gmail.com (Dan Roganti) Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2010 14:53:20 -0400 Subject: TTL HEX LED driver chip In-Reply-To: <4CCFF027.4784.EAED1D@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4CC85C37.1029.1FD4634@cclist.sydex.com> <4CCEF234.19101.18F2FF4@cclist.sydex.com> <4CCFF027.4784.EAED1D@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Nov 2, 2010 at 2:04 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 2 Nov 2010 at 13:09, Dan Roganti wrote: > >> I bet you enjoy changing the rules :) >> Ok, but you didn't say >only< --- or no diodes ;) > > Hey, do want a challenge or not? ?And NO DIODES! > > -- but where would this world be if we didn't use diodes ;) we would have no...no..... =Dan From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Tue Nov 2 14:57:16 2010 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2010 11:57:16 -0800 Subject: TTL HEX LED driver chip In-Reply-To: References: <4CC85C37.1029.1FD4634@cclist.sydex.com> <4CCEF234.19101.18F2FF4@cclist.sydex.com> <102b6bfe19faec58096b680facf83ce8@cs.ubc.ca> <4CCF0864.3902.1E5DBD2@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <15e063210048af5da5ad556a4864b70b@cs.ubc.ca> On 2010 Nov 2, at 10:41 AM, Dan Roganti wrote: > On Tue, Nov 2, 2010 at 3:19 PM, Brent Hilpert > wrote: >> >> >> Starting with those karnaugh maps (there's an error in the >> schematic), there >> is a solution with 10 packages: >> ? 1 ?7404 >> ? 2 ?7408 >> ? 7 ?74LS54 >> 4 inverters to complement the inputs, 7 AOI for the segments, and 6 >> or 7 >> 2-in AND to optimise and widen some of the AOI ANDs; utilisation of 9 >> & 1/6. >> >> Based on the solutions and suggestions from the list, I drew up some >> diagrams for the earlier problem: >> ? ? http://www3.telus.net/~bhilpert/tmp/7seg.gif >> >> ?A: 247,138 solution, suggested by several, >> ? ? optimised down to 5 14/16-pin packages >> ?B: 1-of-16 decoder with some optimisation, 5 packages (1 24-pin), >> ? ? suggested by James and Vincent, IIRC >> ?C: 247,253 data selectors solution suggested by Tony, >> ? ? 5 14/16-pin packages. >> >> > > habl? SSI ? I'm not following you .. A,B,C are solutions for the earlier problem (any 74xx), the 04,08,54 solution is for the second problem (<=7486/SSI). The AOIs qualify as SSI in my books. From ragooman at gmail.com Tue Nov 2 14:01:56 2010 From: ragooman at gmail.com (Dan Roganti) Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2010 15:01:56 -0400 Subject: TTL HEX LED driver chip In-Reply-To: <15e063210048af5da5ad556a4864b70b@cs.ubc.ca> References: <4CC85C37.1029.1FD4634@cclist.sydex.com> <4CCEF234.19101.18F2FF4@cclist.sydex.com> <102b6bfe19faec58096b680facf83ce8@cs.ubc.ca> <4CCF0864.3902.1E5DBD2@cclist.sydex.com> <15e063210048af5da5ad556a4864b70b@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: On Tue, Nov 2, 2010 at 3:57 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > > On 2010 Nov 2, at 10:41 AM, Dan Roganti wrote: > >> On Tue, Nov 2, 2010 at 3:19 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: >>> >>> >>> Starting with those karnaugh maps (there's an error in the schematic), >>> there >>> is a solution with 10 packages: >>> ? 1 ?7404 >>> ? 2 ?7408 >>> ? 7 ?74LS54 >>> 4 inverters to complement the inputs, 7 AOI for the segments, and 6 or 7 >>> 2-in AND to optimise and widen some of the AOI ANDs; utilisation of 9 & >>> 1/6. >>> >>> Based on the solutions and suggestions from the list, I drew up some >>> diagrams for the earlier problem: >>> ? ? http://www3.telus.net/~bhilpert/tmp/7seg.gif >>> >>> ?A: 247,138 solution, suggested by several, >>> ? ? optimised down to 5 14/16-pin packages >>> ?B: 1-of-16 decoder with some optimisation, 5 packages (1 24-pin), >>> ? ? suggested by James and Vincent, IIRC >>> ?C: 247,253 data selectors solution suggested by Tony, >>> ? ? 5 14/16-pin packages. >>> >>> >> >> habl? SSI ? > > I'm not following you .. A,B,C are solutions for the earlier problem (any > 74xx), the 04,08,54 solution is for the second problem (<=7486/SSI). The > AOIs qualify as SSI in my books. > > yes I agree From arcarlini at iee.org Tue Nov 2 15:04:36 2010 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2010 20:04:36 -0000 Subject: Amstrad 3in drive spares In-Reply-To: <4CCFF33D.10705@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <979B216341184D8C9ABC299A70DFD1A4@ANTONIOPC> Philip Pemberton [classiccmp at philpem.me.uk] wrote: > Hmm, there's about half a dozen of those in a jam jar downstairs.... > > Well bugger me, it fits! Aren't they biodegradable? Anyway, a useful tip. Nice to know it works. Antonio From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Nov 2 14:33:02 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2010 19:33:02 +0000 (GMT) Subject: TRS-80 Model II Manuals In-Reply-To: <4CCEE6C7.2050307@nathanpralle.com> from "Nathan Pralle" at Nov 1, 10 11:11:51 am Message-ID: > > More seriously, what model of Shugart8" drive? Are there not manuals for > > them on bitsavers? > They probably are, that's a good point. I don't know yet; I have yet > to yank them to find out. I'm going to try to dig out the machine this > week. I want to make sure I clean the heads and so forth correctly and Most disk drive service manauls specifically warn against cleaning the heads with a cotton bud or foam swap soaked in propan-2-ol and insist you use the cleaning disk. I am not sure why. I've never damaged or misaligned a head by clenaing it by hand. In genral head cleaning is easy -- remove the drive from the machine, possibly remove the logic PCB and/or a protective cover so you can see the heads and then clean them as above. While you're in there, clean any optival sensorts (indesx, track 0, write protect), maybe clean the spidle cone and the slide rails the head carriage runs on, > do all the alignment, etc. to make sure everything's in shape before I Do you have the 8" alignmet disk? If not, while there are ways to get the alignment fairly close using a normal disk formatted on a known-good drive, it's probably better not to adjust anythi9ng unless yoy have to. > shove these disks in there, just in case something's off/corroded/etc. > and I end up with a pile of ferrous shavings instead of data. ;) You could make sure it doesn't chew up a blank disk first. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Nov 2 14:38:55 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2010 19:38:55 +0000 (GMT) Subject: TTL HEX LED driver chip In-Reply-To: <4CCEF234.19101.18F2FF4@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Nov 1, 10 05:00:36 pm Message-ID: > > On 1 Nov 2010 at 16:28, alan canning wrote: > > > I must admit I have not read thru all the posts so if somebody else > > suggested this my apologies. Why not a one chip solution; use a 74S188 > > and program whatever you want the character set to be (i.e. hook or no > > hook on 6s, etc. )? > > That's where we started. Tony wanted to see what the minimum in > combinatorial logic would be. To date, I've not seen a solution that Strictly a PROM is combinatorial logic :-). My origianl puzzle (which I don't know the best answer for...) was to make a full hxadecimal 7 segment driver using 74xx TTL parts ('and preferably common ones) and no programmable devices (no PROMS, PALs, etc). I didn;t forbit sequential logic, although it's hard to see why it would be useful. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Nov 2 14:27:29 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2010 19:27:29 +0000 (GMT) Subject: PDP-11/34A bring up In-Reply-To: <20101101152950.GF2158@n0jcf.net> from "Chris Elmquist" at Nov 1, 10 10:29:50 am Message-ID: > > I am the new keeper of the PDP-11/34A that Jack Rubin rescued a while > ago and wrote about here, > > http://decpicted.blogspot.com/2010/01/pdp-1134a-data-systems-design-dsd-880.html > > I took it on a road trip from Chicago back to St. Paul after VCFMW > in September. > > I've been doing a lot of cleanup on it and finally got to the point > where I could power it on (just the CPU box) this weekend. > > I think now I need to learn about Grant Continuity ;-) I think you're right there :-) > > There is a M9302 terminator installed in the last slot (left most when > looking from the front of the machine) and also an M9312 in slot 4 > (amoungst the CPU and cache cards). > > Two of the original boards are removed from the backplane... the DSD > 808830 controller and the DILOG DU130 tape controller. They were in > slots 12 and 13. Almost certainly both of those would be DMA devices ('NPR' in DEC's terminologiy, meaning 'Non Processor Request') . As a result, the NPG (non provessor grant) jumper will have been removed from the backplane wiring on those 2 slots. > > I then also have an RL11 on hand but it is not currently installed in > the machine. > > When I power up the machine, it immediately lights the RUN light on the > KY11-B programmer's console. No matter what I do from that console, I > cannot get it to exit RUN or print anything to the serial terminal. > > However, if I remove the M9302 terminator (a trick I found on some web > page), then sure enough, I can HALT it, the RUN light goes out and I can > do CTRL+BOOT and the serial terminal will spring to life with a register > dump and the '@' prompt. > > I'm pretty sure that my problem is the empty slots 12 and 13 where boards > used to be and should now have Grant Continuity cards installed instead... > but I am curious why pulling the M9302 makes it "work". What is the > mechanism at play there? I would agree with all that. You've done the first test that I always suggest -- Pull the M9302 (and replace it with an M930 if you have one). )OK, as to what';s going on. This is is basically what should heppen when a Bus Request (BR) or Non Procesor Requeest occurs : 1) Periphral asserts the appropraite BR on NPR line 2) Procesosr (actually the arbiter if you're pedantic) asserts the associated Grant line, procided (in the case of an BR) the priority level is high enough. Note that the grant lines are not bussed along the Unibus slots. Instead, the grant lines from th processor/arbiter) go to the grant inputs on the first Unibus slot. The grant outputs of that slot go to the grant inuts of the next slot, and so on. 3) A device which is not issuing a request at that level will simply pass the grant on, and make it's grant outputs the same state as the grant inputs. That's what a grant contuity card does (in a trivial way by simply connecting the inputs ot the outputs) 4) The device that did issue the reuest does not pass the grant on (it keeps its grant outputs deasserted) so that no device s further from the processor can repsond ot the grant. It then asserts SACK (Select ACKnowlddge) on the Unibus to say that it's accepted the grant. I think at this point the arbiter seasserts the grant lines, the peripohertla has control of the Unibus. Now, normally, a grant should never get as far as the terminator at the far end of the Unibus. Because the grant was issued in response to a requexst from a device, and that device should intercept the grant and not pass it on. However, IIRC there can be a condition where things don't quite synchornise properly. Under those conditions, hte grant is not intercepted, as a result, the SACK line is never asserted and I think the machine hacks. So the M9302 terminator has a little bit of logic to assert SACK if it sees a grant. But that birings in aother problem. The grant lines, unlike the other Unibus signals, are active high. So if the grant chain is broken at some point, th grant inputs of all devices after th break will seem to be asserted. Those grants will get to the terminator, which asserts SACK, and the system hcngs for another reason. That's waht you're seeing. > > I also suspect that I may have to look at the backplane wiring for slots > 12 and 13 to put back whatever DMA jumpering might have been modified for > the two cards that used to be there-- or, at least for one of them as > I can probably put the RL11 into one of those slots and it requires DMA. It's a little wire-wrapped jumper between pins CA1 and CB1 of the Unibus slot. That is, the rearmsot 2 contacts on the right hand side (compoennt side of the PCB) on the 3rd edge conenctor from the rear of the machine. Most of the grant contiuity cards used on 11/34s are the little almost square ones which go in connector D. Those connect up the 4 bus grant lines, but not the NPG line. There is a dual-height continuity card which goies into C nad D and completes all grants, but they're not as common. A trick I've usef for testing is to cut a little strip of single-sided copper clad boardthat will go ito the C connector and connect pins CA 1 and CB1 only. When I fit NPG jumpers by wire-srapping them on the backplane, I use red or orange wire-wrp wire ot make them easier to spot in the future. And yes the RL11 is a DMA device, you must remove the NPG jumper from the slot where it's fitted -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Nov 2 15:21:35 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2010 20:21:35 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Amstrad 3in drive spares In-Reply-To: <4CCFE4CE.5080308@mac.com> from "Roger Pugh" at Nov 2, 10 10:15:42 am Message-ID: > > On 11/02/2010 09:13, Philip Pemberton wrote: > > > > Does anyone have a couple of spare belts for these, or a lead on a > > source who'll sell me a couple of them without wanting to charge me > > some silly amount of postage on top? > > > > Flebay is the answer > > item 250660401268 or similar.. A bit fiddly to change but not too bad.. There is at leat one Amstrad 3" rive where it helps to rmeove the PCB before changing the belt. And when you do this, a little sensor pin (write protect or disk inserted?) is loose and can drop out. There's no problem refitting it, provided you notice it's fallen out. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Nov 2 15:30:07 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2010 20:30:07 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Amstrad 3in drive spares In-Reply-To: <4CCFF310.90603@philpem.me.uk> from "Philip Pemberton" at Nov 2, 10 11:16:32 am Message-ID: > Cheers for the link. Now I just need to fix the PCB on the 231 (some > idiot has gone and ripped a few tracks and pads off the board) and steal > some parts (a PCB mounting screw!) from the 156... Is there soemthing special about the screw? Why do you need to take it from another drirve? > > Given its wiring, I suspect SW1 is the drive select switch (it isn't > fitted on either of my drives). What I don't get is why it's got three > pins plus common. Common goes to the "SELECT" input on the controller > chip, 1 goes to /SEL1 (pin 4), 2 apparently goes to /SEL0, and 3 carries > the READY signal from the drive (?!). JP1 allows SEL0 and SELECT to be > bridged without the switch present. > The only way this would make sense is if switch pin 3 was open-circuit... The schematic I have to hand shows SW1 as switching bwtween drive select 0 (pin 4 of the connecotr) and drive sleect 1 (pin 6 of the connector. The common connection goes to the D-SELCT/ input of the main ASIC. There is indeed a jumper to connect up Drive Select 0 if the switch isn't fitted. Alas the manual doesn't show PCB layouts, just a schematic So I have no idea if there's an exta non-connected pin on the switch. -tony From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Tue Nov 2 15:57:27 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2010 18:57:27 -0200 Subject: TRS-80 Model II Manuals References: Message-ID: <292601cb7ad1$63713c30$6600a8c0@portajara> > Most disk drive service manauls specifically warn against cleaning the > heads with a cotton bud or foam swap soaked in propan-2-ol and insist you > use the cleaning disk. I am not sure why. I've never damaged or > misaligned a head by clenaing it by hand. Funny history: I was 13, 14 year old. I don't remember well. I'm getting old. A friend of mine was directing me in the field of computer repair. I had just bought my first apple II clone (An Exato Pro II from CCE) with a controller board and a full height 5 1/4 floppy. Mine had a problem in the CA3361 (if I'm not mistaken, we are talking 22 years ago) transistor array, so it could read disks, but not write. Marcelo (my friend) was showing me how to align the drive using locksmith 6.0, reading a disk and finding the middle point in the rotacional position of the step motor. Ok, I aligned the drive, but it shown some read errors. The head was dirty. So, he wetted his finger on the mouth, rubbed the wet finger in the drive head, cleaned with his shirt..."Presto, it works!" he said. And unbelieveably, it was clean and working as it should always had. I shouted loud...For me, he had finished my drive. But I learned that things in the floppie world wasn't so fragile as I have learned before. And i cleaned my drives many times using this method, when there wasn't alchool around. I should write a book ;o) From cclist at sydex.com Tue Nov 2 16:14:53 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 02 Nov 2010 14:14:53 -0700 Subject: TTL HEX LED driver chip In-Reply-To: References: <4CCEF234.19101.18F2FF4@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Nov 1, 10 05:00:36 pm, Message-ID: <4CD01CDD.2627.1999499@cclist.sydex.com> On 2 Nov 2010 at 19:38, Tony Duell wrote: > My origianl puzzle (which I don't know the best answer for...) was to > make a full hxadecimal 7 segment driver using 74xx TTL parts ('and > preferably common ones) and no programmable devices (no PROMS, PALs, > etc). We could restrict the solution to HTL parts. That might be interesting as they didn't reach any high level of integration. --Chuck From dm561 at torfree.net Tue Nov 2 17:14:26 2010 From: dm561 at torfree.net (MikeS) Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2010 17:14:26 -0500 Subject: surplus source for MRA connectors? References: Message-ID: <176605DDF71C404A9E46F7ED4FF2AAAB@vl420mt> Date: Tue, 02 Nov 2010 10:27:45 -0700 From: Al Kossow Subject: surplus source for MRA connectors? In particular, the MRA42P solder cup 42 pin "winchester" plug for Diablo 31 disk drives. parts scalpers are asking $75 ea, and have made web searching useless looks like on-line surplus store catalogs have all but disappeared ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Well, by one of those serendipitous coincidences only yesterday I was looking at a rat's nest of cables including some with MRA connectors (mostly only one gender of course, so not much use), wondering whether it was worth cutting off the connectors and trying to get a few bucks for the copper or whether to just toss it all into a dumpster somewhere. I'll see what there is. mike From terry at webweavers.co.nz Tue Nov 2 16:19:34 2010 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2010 10:19:34 +1300 Subject: Fragility in the floppy world (was Re: TRS-80 Model II Manuals) References: <292601cb7ad1$63713c30$6600a8c0@portajara> Message-ID: <04DB6CF35ED54B03ADA1BB0D4D494554@massey.ac.nz> Having spent my whole life considering floppy disks to be extremely fragile things to be handled with great delicacy I was astonished by the experience below. http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/2009-02-21-retrieving-data-using-soap-and-water.htm Terry Stewart (tezza) > But I learned that things in the floppie world wasn't so fragile as I have > learned before. And i cleaned my drives many times using this method, when > there wasn't alchool around. > > I should write a book ;o) > From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Nov 2 16:25:46 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2010 17:25:46 -0400 Subject: Fragility in the floppy world (was Re: TRS-80 Model II Manuals) In-Reply-To: <04DB6CF35ED54B03ADA1BB0D4D494554@massey.ac.nz> References: <292601cb7ad1$63713c30$6600a8c0@portajara> <04DB6CF35ED54B03ADA1BB0D4D494554@massey.ac.nz> Message-ID: On 11/2/10, Terry Stewart wrote: > Having spent my whole life considering floppy disks to be extremely fragile > things to be handled with great delicacy I was astonished by the experience > below. > http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/2009-02-21-retrieving-data-using-soap-and-water.htm That's the tried-and-true way of reading a diskette that's had Coke spilled on it. After the world switched to 3.5" floppies, doing these sorts of things (mostly) faded into the mists. -ethan From shoppa at trailing-edge.com Tue Nov 2 16:27:06 2010 From: shoppa at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Tue, 02 Nov 2010 17:27:06 -0400 Subject: surplus source for MRA connectors? Message-ID: <20101102212707.045E71E006F@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> > In particular, the MRA42P solder cup 42 pin "winchester" plug for > Diablo 31 disk drives. Manufacturer's webpage lists Powell and CDM as stocking distributors. http://dilp.netcomponents.com/winchesterelectronics.html Does the CHM or someone local to you have a RK03? Some mid-late-70's early DEC and DG 3rd-party sellers (AED? DSD? General Robotics?) sold Diablo drives with their own homegrown Unibus and Omnibus interfaces but that stuff was kinda crufty when it brand new, never mind 30+ years later. Wasn't the Diablo 30 the same as the RK03? Tim. From IanK at vulcan.com Tue Nov 2 16:38:55 2010 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2010 14:38:55 -0700 Subject: TRS-80 Model II Manuals In-Reply-To: References: <4CCB0408.4030308@nathanpralle.com> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jason T > Sent: Friday, October 29, 2010 2:24 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only > Subject: Re: TRS-80 Model II Manuals > > On Fri, Oct 29, 2010 at 12:27 PM, Nathan Pralle > wrote: > > Thanks to the ever-useful JP Hindin, I've obtained a set of TRS-DOS > disks > > and other application disks for my TRS-80 Model II system, which is > the > > entire setup pictured here, plus a bit more: > > Not to assume that anyone is running a disk-duping service for the > Model II, but I just acquired one recently also (just the main box, > not the whole table :) and I am without media of any sort. I've got a > lot of blank 8" disks, though, and would be happy to send them ahead > or trade them for something to boot the big grey beast. > I have one, too, that I've just started playing with (and need to work on), and I have both the internal floppy drive and an external dual floppy. I also have a bunch of floppies that appear to have fun things on them like Scripsit and Xenix (I have the 68K upgrade, too). Once I get my machine functional I'll post here and let everyone know, so perhaps I can help out a few folks. -- Ian From dm561 at torfree.net Tue Nov 2 17:38:05 2010 From: dm561 at torfree.net (MikeS) Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2010 17:38:05 -0500 Subject: TTL HEX LED driver chip References: Message-ID: <9259CDCB5B0846C698195A156BAE1719@vl420mt> Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2010 14:22:48 -0400 From: Dan Roganti Subject: Re: TTL HEX LED driver chip On Tue, Nov 2, 2010 at 2:06 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 2 Nov 2010 at 13:33, MikeS wrote: > >> There's that ubiquitous string instrument again (I guess if it were a >> girl's name it'd be in caps?), mysteriously in reference to a >> hexadecimal display this time... > > I've long wondered if the Germans exclaim "Bratsche!" > > --Chuck > (not giving in to repeating a very long list of viola jokes) > isn't this attributed to deep seeded oppression of diodes versus just a typo ;) ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Aw come on now, that's not fair! I think I can speak for Chuck as well when I say unequivocally that although we may have inadvertently stepped on and crushed (or exceeded the PIV of) one or two we have never oppressed a single diode in our entire lives, whether deep seededly (sic) or not; as a matter of fact I love the little buggers, silicon or germanium, Schottky or not, high power or low power and all powers in between, equally and without prejudice, and have assembled many little teams of them in matrices on the outputs of a demux chip to solve problems like this in a simple, straightforward, low power (and cheap) way. mike From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Tue Nov 2 16:31:48 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2010 19:31:48 -0200 Subject: Fragility in the floppy world (was Re: TRS-80 Model II Manuals) References: <292601cb7ad1$63713c30$6600a8c0@portajara> <04DB6CF35ED54B03ADA1BB0D4D494554@massey.ac.nz> Message-ID: <297101cb7ad7$7bb703a0$6600a8c0@portajara> > Having spent my whole life considering floppy disks to be extremely > fragile things to be handled with great delicacy I was astonished by the > experience below. > http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/2009-02-21-retrieving-data-using-soap-and-water.htm Don't you remember "verbatim datalife plus" which came with a spare sleeve you could cut the sleeve of your disk, take the internal disk out, insert in the sleeve and read (and use!) in the drive? :oD From dm561 at torfree.net Tue Nov 2 17:47:49 2010 From: dm561 at torfree.net (MikeS) Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2010 17:47:49 -0500 Subject: TTL HEX LED driver chip References: Message-ID: Date: Tue, 02 Nov 2010 11:06:31 -0700 From: "Chuck Guzis" Subject: Re: TTL HEX LED driver chip On 2 Nov 2010 at 13:33, MikeS wrote: > There's that ubiquitous string instrument again (I guess if it were a > girl's name it'd be in caps?), mysteriously in reference to a > hexadecimal display this time... I've long wondered if the Germans exclaim "Bratsche!" --Chuck (not giving in to repeating a very long list of viola jokes) ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Well, it'd have to be "Bretscha", wouldn't it? And for those who wonder why it's called a "Bratsche" or just need a viola joke fix after that: http://www.mit.edu/~jcb/viola-jokes.html m From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Tue Nov 2 16:57:41 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Tue, 02 Nov 2010 21:57:41 +0000 Subject: Amstrad 3in drive spares In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CD08955.1000007@philpem.me.uk> On 02/11/10 20:30, Tony Duell wrote: > Is there soemthing special about the screw? Why do you need to take it > from another drirve? It's a rather small screw. 5mm long, M2.5 or possibly Imperial. Naturally the Amstrad service manual doesn't say a damn thing about what it is or isn't. Path of least resistance basically. The 231 is the nicer of the two drives, and the one I'd most like to see working: it can handle both "flippy" and "true" double-sided 3in discs, the 720K Amstrad discs, and the previous-generation 180K SS discs. The 153 can only handle single-sided discs, or "flippy" double-sided ones. 180K a side if memory serves. > The schematic I have to hand shows SW1 as switching bwtween drive select > 0 (pin 4 of the connecotr) and drive sleect 1 (pin 6 of the connector. > The common connection goes to the D-SELCT/ input of the main ASIC. That's what I got too (from tracing the tracks from the switch to the ASIC and the IDC connector) > There > is indeed a jumper to connect up Drive Select 0 if the switch isn't fitted. JP1, next to the data connector. Short it and the drive is forced to DS0. > Alas the manual doesn't show PCB layouts, just a schematic So I have no > idea if there's an exta non-connected pin on the switch. :( Ah well, I can live with it being permanently jumpered for drive select 0 (drive A or whatever Amstrad called it). Thanks, -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From cclist at sydex.com Tue Nov 2 17:18:13 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 02 Nov 2010 15:18:13 -0700 Subject: Fragility in the floppy world (was Re: TRS-80 Model II Manuals) In-Reply-To: References: , <04DB6CF35ED54B03ADA1BB0D4D494554@massey.ac.nz>, Message-ID: <4CD02BB5.25973.1D38FFB@cclist.sydex.com> On 2 Nov 2010 at 17:25, Ethan Dicks wrote: > That's the tried-and-true way of reading a diskette that's had Coke > spilled on it. After the world switched to 3.5" floppies, doing these > sorts of things (mostly) faded into the mists. Years ago, my little group using an Intel MDS-800 finished up a compiler project way ahead of schedule. Management was so impressed that they had T-shirts printed up and threw us a party, complete with (really cheap) champagne. (I still have the T-shirt, but it doesn't fit me anymore.) We had the source code 8" floppies on a little shrine sort of display so better to appreciate what we'd done. And no, we didn't have a master backup of the thing, although we might have been able to recreate it with bits from various people's private copies. About a half-hour into the shindig, someone knocked a full glass of bubbly onto the floppies and thoroughly saturated them. Very sticky stuff. We removed the cookies from their jackets, took them to the men's lav, washed them in the sink and wiped them dry with paper towels right out of the dispenser and stuck the floppies into new jackets. No harm done. It was THEN that we made a set of backups... SSSD floppies were TOUGH. To the best of my recollection, they were brown-box Dysans. --Chuck From IanK at vulcan.com Tue Nov 2 17:28:05 2010 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2010 15:28:05 -0700 Subject: Fragility in the floppy world (was Re: TRS-80 Model II Manuals) In-Reply-To: <4CD02BB5.25973.1D38FFB@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <04DB6CF35ED54B03ADA1BB0D4D494554@massey.ac.nz>, <4CD02BB5.25973.1D38FFB@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chuck Guzis > Sent: Tuesday, November 02, 2010 3:18 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Fragility in the floppy world (was Re: TRS-80 Model II > Manuals) > > Years ago, my little group using an Intel MDS-800 finished up a > compiler project way ahead of schedule. Management was so impressed > that they had T-shirts printed up and threw us a party, complete with > (really cheap) champagne. (I still have the T-shirt, but it doesn't > fit me anymore.) Don't you hate it when those things shrink like that? ;-) From dkelvey at hotmail.com Tue Nov 2 17:46:39 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2010 15:46:39 -0700 Subject: 10 Hole Disk Punch In-Reply-To: <4CD08955.1000007@philpem.me.uk> References: ,<4CD08955.1000007@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: Hi All We are having a number of 10 hole punches made up. The idea is that you take a 360K disk and transform it to a hard sectored. We are hoping to get 18 or more people that wish to buy one of these. If we can get this number it would be about $30 plus post and package. Please let me know if you'd like one soon. Dwight From ragooman at gmail.com Tue Nov 2 17:46:42 2010 From: ragooman at gmail.com (Dan Roganti) Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2010 18:46:42 -0400 Subject: Fragility in the floppy world (was Re: TRS-80 Model II Manuals) In-Reply-To: <4CD02BB5.25973.1D38FFB@cclist.sydex.com> References: <04DB6CF35ED54B03ADA1BB0D4D494554@massey.ac.nz> <4CD02BB5.25973.1D38FFB@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Nov 2, 2010 at 6:18 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > It was THEN that we made a set of backups... > > SSSD floppies were TOUGH. ?To the best of my recollection, they were > brown-box Dysans. > tough as nails ;) I still have an unopened sealed NOS box of Dysans, I don't when I'll get around to opening that but I still use 'em. =Dan --http://www.vintagecomputer.net/ragooman/ From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Nov 2 17:48:57 2010 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 02 Nov 2010 15:48:57 -0700 Subject: surplus source for MRA connectors? In-Reply-To: <20101102212707.045E71E006F@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> References: <20101102212707.045E71E006F@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <4CD09559.70703@bitsavers.org> On 11/2/10 2:27 PM, Tim Shoppa wrote: >> In particular, the MRA42P solder cup 42 pin "winchester" plug for >> Diablo 31 disk drives. > > Manufacturer's webpage lists Powell and CDM as stocking distributors. > CDM gave me the $75 quote > Does the CHM or someone local to you have a RK03? Some mid-late-70's > early DEC and DG 3rd-party sellers (AED? DSD? General Robotics?) sold Diablo > drives with their own homegrown Unibus and Omnibus interfaces but that > stuff was kinda crufty when it brand new, never mind 30+ years later. Wasn't > the Diablo 30 the same as the RK03? > The RK03 is a Diablo 31. AED sold the model 2200 Unibus controller, Xylogics sold a QBus RK11 emulator (which I have, and works fine). Lots of minicomputer companies OEMed Diablo drives. They are pretty reliable, but do use DTL ICs in all but the last generation of them, which switched to TTL. I need to make a cable for a Wilson Labs drive exerciser box. If I have to, I'll canabalize one of my spare Alto drive cables for the Diablo connector assembly on the end. A bit of warning on the Wilson exercisers. There are two versions, one that has a built-in supply, and one that steals power from the drive. From dkelvey at hotmail.com Tue Nov 2 17:51:00 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2010 15:51:00 -0700 Subject: 10 Hole Disk Punch In-Reply-To: References: , <4CD08955.1000007@philpem.me.uk>, Message-ID: > From: dkelvey at hotmail.com > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: 10 Hole Disk Punch > Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2010 15:46:39 -0700 > > > > Hi All > We are having a number of 10 hole punches made up. The idea is that > you take a 360K disk and transform it to a hard sectored. > We are hoping to get 18 or more people that wish to buy one of these. > If we can get this number it would be about $30 plus post and package. Oops! typo Should have said $35 +P/H and a maybe $2 for additional hardware. The end user would also need to supply a piece of about 12x12 inch plywood to mount it on. > Please let me know if you'd like one soon. > Dwight > From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Nov 2 17:53:01 2010 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 02 Nov 2010 15:53:01 -0700 Subject: surplus source for MRA connectors? In-Reply-To: <176605DDF71C404A9E46F7ED4FF2AAAB@vl420mt> References: <176605DDF71C404A9E46F7ED4FF2AAAB@vl420mt> Message-ID: <4CD0964D.9020307@bitsavers.org> On 11/2/10 3:14 PM, MikeS wrote: > I'll see what there is. > Thanks! The connectors were quite common at one point. I was frustrated when I ran around to the usual Bay Area surplus places and found almost no Winchester connectors or pins anywhere. There are almost none on eBay, either. Looking for a connector there is a real nightmare there, trying to guess how someone would list them. From silent700 at gmail.com Tue Nov 2 18:20:14 2010 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2010 18:20:14 -0500 Subject: 10 Hole Disk Punch In-Reply-To: References: <4CD08955.1000007@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: On Tue, Nov 2, 2010 at 5:46 PM, dwight elvey wrote: > ?We are having a number of 10 hole punches made up. The idea is that > you take a 360K disk and transform it to a hard sectored. > ?We are hoping to get 18 or more people that wish to buy one of these. > If we can get this number it would be about $30 plus post and package. > Please let me know if you'd like one soon. Cool idea - has this been tried and tested? And dumb question....5.25" or 8"? From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Nov 2 18:38:34 2010 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 02 Nov 2010 16:38:34 -0700 Subject: little PC104 board for projects Message-ID: <4CD0A0FA.5050601@bitsavers.org> I'm fond of using little PC104 boards for projects. Here's one of the cheapest I've seen (clearance at $110). Doesn't have VGA, which I don't use anyway. http://buy.advantech.com/CPU-Modules/CPU-Modules/model-PCM-3343L-256A1E.htm From cclist at sydex.com Tue Nov 2 19:02:13 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 02 Nov 2010 17:02:13 -0700 Subject: 10 Hole Disk Punch In-Reply-To: References: , , Message-ID: <4CD04415.26501.232C882@cclist.sydex.com> On 2 Nov 2010 at 18:20, Jason T wrote: > On Tue, Nov 2, 2010 at 5:46 PM, dwight elvey > wrote: > ?We are having a number of 10 hole punches made up. The idea > is that > you take a 360K disk and transform it to a hard sectored. > > ?We are hoping to get 18 or more people that wish to buy one of these. > > If we can get this number it would be about $30 plus post and > package. > Please let me know if you'd like one soon. > > Cool idea - has this been tried and tested? And dumb > question....5.25" or 8"? Hard-sector 8" floppies, but for some very ancient types which have holes around the outer edge, all have 33 holes. So they're 10 sector 5.25" floppies. Vector Graphic maybe? --Chuck From drb at msu.edu Tue Nov 2 19:55:31 2010 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Tue, 02 Nov 2010 20:55:31 -0400 Subject: 10 Hole Disk Punch In-Reply-To: (Your message of Tue, 02 Nov 2010 17:02:13 PDT.) <4CD04415.26501.232C882@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4CD04415.26501.232C882@cclist.sydex.com> , , Message-ID: <20101103005531.E2AECA580D2@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > So they're 10 sector 5.25" floppies. Vector Graphic maybe? To the best of my recollection, the VGs were 16RH, not 10. To which end I asked Dwight if a 16 hole model might be feasible. De From leaknoil at gmail.com Tue Nov 2 20:34:40 2010 From: leaknoil at gmail.com (leaknoil) Date: Tue, 02 Nov 2010 18:34:40 -0700 Subject: 10 Hole Disk Punch In-Reply-To: <20101103005531.E2AECA580D2@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> References: <4CD04415.26501.232C882@cclist.sydex.com> , , <20101103005531.E2AECA580D2@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: <4CD0BC30.1010305@gmail.com> Northstar was 10 sector 5.25" if I remember right. On 11/2/2010 5:55 PM, Dennis Boone wrote: > > So they're 10 sector 5.25" floppies. Vector Graphic maybe? > > To the best of my recollection, the VGs were 16RH, not 10. To which end > I asked Dwight if a 16 hole model might be feasible. > > De From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Tue Nov 2 20:43:21 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Wed, 03 Nov 2010 01:43:21 +0000 Subject: DiscFerret: Update 2010-11-03 In-Reply-To: <1288029241.9356.127.camel@cheetah> References: <1288029241.9356.127.camel@cheetah> Message-ID: <4CD0BE39.6050307@philpem.me.uk> I've made a bit more progress with the DiscFerret: * Cost reduction I found another PCB supplier who can supply PCBs of a similar quality to the Eurocircuits boards, but at HALF the original price, with full electrical testing and RoHS compliance thrown in. There is a catch, though: I have to order a panel of six boards at a time. Assuming the quality is at least as good as the Eurocircuits boards, this is what I'll be using for production DiscFerrets. Bare board cost is now down to ?25 including UK post, down from ?52. The price for a board with the TPS75003 pre-soldered is set at ?29, or ?4 more than a bare board. This includes me doing a full continuity check on the TPS75003 and surrounding tracks. I've ordered half a dozen boards, which gives me ten saleable units. Depending on how many orders I get, these will probably be a mix of bare boards and fully assembled and tested boards. I intend to keep a few boards in stock (the P&P is included in the board price, so "just in time" ordering is a real possibility). * Board changes I've made the pads larger on the Schottky diodes and inductors. It should now be possible to solder these with a soldering iron! For obvious reasons I'd suggest a temperature controlled iron (Antex 660TC with TC50 iron, Weller TCP, Xytronic or similar), but you should be able to get away with using a 25W iron (Antex XS or similar) and a 2.5mm bit. There are a few 0805 parts nestled amongst the 0603s. I've tweaked the pads on these so that 0603-sized parts can be fitted in place of the 0805s. * Reflow profiling I think I've mentioned that the power controller chip can't be soldered with a soldering iron. I spent a few hours yesterday ruining parts^W^W figuring out a usable reflow profile for Multicore RA15 SnAgCu solder paste... Turns out the process parameters for hot-air are "slightly" (read: completely) different to the parameters given in the datasheet. Anyway, it works now, with a small amount of rework needed afterwards (wicking away a bit of excess solder on the pads). * Write support You heard it here first, folks: disc write support has been added to the DiscFerret microcode! This puts the DiscFerret well in front of the SPS Kryoflux analyser (which, at the moment, is read-only). I'm working on a proper test suite for this, but initial results look promising. There are a few other things I'd like to add before release: * Head settling time enforcement. The seek logic currently ignores settling time. This is going to be added before the final spin, come hell or high water! * Index frequency measurement. This would be handy for setting up speed-adjustable drives like the Amstrad/Panasonic EME series 3-inch units (used in the CPC and PCW series and the Spectrum +3). It should be possible to get at least one reading per second with a decent amount of resolution. The plan is to get some early-production units made up and on sale by the end of the month, and do another production run early next year if there's sufficient demand. Cheers, -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From shoppa at trailing-edge.com Tue Nov 2 20:45:04 2010 From: shoppa at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Tue, 02 Nov 2010 21:45:04 -0400 Subject: surplus source for MRA connectors? Message-ID: <20101103014504.E43E31E006F@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> > Looking for a connector there is a real > nightmare there, trying to guess how someone would list them. The very broad term for this style is "rack and panel". 50-way is an industry standard (at least in my industry! We have them by the tens of thousands) but I don't know about any multi-sourced 42-way. Tim. From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Nov 2 21:03:39 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2010 22:03:39 -0400 Subject: TTL HEX LED driver chip In-Reply-To: <4CD01CDD.2627.1999499@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4CCEF234.19101.18F2FF4@cclist.sydex.com> <4CD01CDD.2627.1999499@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > We could restrict the solution to HTL parts. ?That might be > interesting as they didn't reach any high level of integration. ...and if you need HTL, I've got it. -- Will From evan at snarc.net Tue Nov 2 22:27:13 2010 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Tue, 02 Nov 2010 23:27:13 -0400 Subject: Watts Humphrey Message-ID: <4CD0D691.3060701@snarc.net> Watts Humphrey, known as the "father of software quality testing" died a few days ago. He was 83. Watts was a keynote speaker at VCF East 5.0 (two years ago.) He worked on the MOBIDIC ("Mobile Digital Computer") and on the Fieldata spec (which became ASCII), and which both happened at the Army base that's now our museum. Favorite story that I enjoy telling: Watts explained how, when MOBIDIC was finished and mounted in its 30-foot truck (late 1950s), the Army insisted on testing it like any other military vehicle. So they drove the computer-truck to the Aberdeen Proving Ground. On two test laps, the computer itself came through with flying colors both times. Also on both laps, the truck broke down! Here are some obituaries: Press release -- http://tinyurl.com/2fwdu27 Carnegie Mellon -- http://www.sei.cmu.edu/watts/ SD Times -- http://tinyurl.com/243shql* * From ragooman at gmail.com Tue Nov 2 22:47:52 2010 From: ragooman at gmail.com (Dan Roganti) Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2010 23:47:52 -0400 Subject: Watts Humphrey In-Reply-To: <4CD0D691.3060701@snarc.net> References: <4CD0D691.3060701@snarc.net> Message-ID: On Tue, Nov 2, 2010 at 11:27 PM, Evan Koblentz wrote: > Watts Humphrey, known as the "father of software quality testing" died a few > days ago. ?He was 83. > > Watts was a keynote speaker at VCF East 5.0 (two years ago.) ?He worked on > the MOBIDIC ("Mobile Digital Computer") and on the Fieldata spec (which > became ASCII), and which both happened at the Army base that's now our > museum. > > Favorite story that I enjoy telling: Watts explained how, when MOBIDIC was > finished and mounted in its 30-foot truck (late 1950s), the Army insisted on > testing it like any other military vehicle. ?So they drove the > computer-truck to the Aberdeen Proving Ground. ?On two test laps, the > computer itself came through with flying colors both times. ?Also on both > laps, the truck broke down! > Very sorry to hear about this. It was great meeting him at VCF East, I saved some pics of him from the event which I don't think are online, I'll try to post them if the others haven't been yet. I'll have to review the video I have too and see if I did record any of that lecture. =Dan --http://www.vintagecomputer.net/ragooman/ From d235j.1 at gmail.com Tue Nov 2 22:53:48 2010 From: d235j.1 at gmail.com (David Ryskalczyk) Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2010 23:53:48 -0400 Subject: Information about Tektronix 4107A/4109A graphic terminals Message-ID: Anyone out there have one of these? I have one of each, but one is broken and has an incomplete set of ROMs (which appear to be one of the early versions -- maybe 1.0!). I do have a complete set of version 8.2 ROMs, dated 1985. Someone posted photos of a 4107A a while ago at http://picasaweb.google.com/glen.slick/Tektronix4107A#5300179266366767714 . The 4109A we have is fully intact, but the 4107A has front panel damage. Also, we're not sure whether or not we have keyboards and mice. Any information, including owner's and service manuals, would be greatly appreciated. --Dave From evan at snarc.net Tue Nov 2 22:57:07 2010 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Tue, 02 Nov 2010 23:57:07 -0400 Subject: Watts Humphrey In-Reply-To: <4CD0D691.3060701@snarc.net> References: <4CD0D691.3060701@snarc.net> Message-ID: <4CD0DD93.4030603@snarc.net> > Watts Humphrey, known as the "father of software quality testing" died > a few days ago. He was 83. > > Watts was a keynote speaker at VCF East 5.0 (two years ago.) He > worked on the MOBIDIC ("Mobile Digital Computer") and on the Fieldata > spec (which became ASCII), and which both happened at the Army base > that's now our museum. > > Favorite story that I enjoy telling: Watts explained how, when MOBIDIC > was finished and mounted in its 30-foot truck (late 1950s), the Army > insisted on testing it like any other military vehicle. So they drove > the computer-truck to the Aberdeen Proving Ground. On two test laps, > the computer itself came through with flying colors both times. Also > on both laps, the truck broke down! > > Here are some obituaries: > Press release -- http://tinyurl.com/2fwdu27 > Carnegie Mellon -- http://www.sei.cmu.edu/watts/ > SD Times -- http://tinyurl.com/243shql* > * There's also a CHM oral history at http://archive.computerhistory.org/resources/access/text/Oral_History/102702107.05.01.acc.pdf From geoffr at zipcon.net Tue Nov 2 23:28:44 2010 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoffrey Reed) Date: Tue, 02 Nov 2010 21:28:44 -0700 Subject: DiscFerret: Update 2010-11-03 In-Reply-To: <4CD0BE39.6050307@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: What size are the PC boards, and are you using 2 or 4 layer boards? What software are you laying out in? From dm561 at torfree.net Wed Nov 3 00:39:57 2010 From: dm561 at torfree.net (MikeS) Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2010 00:39:57 -0500 Subject: surplus source for MRA connectors? References: Message-ID: <7DA0B272C85245D09A841352FCBBF2F0@vl420mt> Date: Tue, 02 Nov 2010 15:53:01 -0700 From: Al Kossow Subject: Re: surplus source for MRA connectors? On 11/2/10 3:14 PM, MikeS wrote: > I'll see what there is. > Thanks! The connectors were quite common at one point. I was frustrated when I ran around to the usual Bay Area surplus places and found almost no Winchester connectors or pins anywhere. There are almost none on eBay, either. Looking for a connector there is a real nightmare there, trying to guess how someone would list them. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Sorry, Al; found some Winchesters and some Continentals that look compatible, but only 34, 50 and 75 contact versions, no 42s. Hope Will has some for ya. mike From dkelvey at hotmail.com Tue Nov 2 23:55:42 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2010 21:55:42 -0700 Subject: 10 Hole Disk Punch In-Reply-To: References: <4CD08955.1000007@philpem.me.uk>, , Message-ID: Hi All Fisrt, I have a single hole one that I've used to create 10 sector ones. It has worked but is tricky to align each hole. Punch the hole them selves is not rocket science, the alignement is. The punches will have a keyed location for the index and separate holes for each of the ten holes. These will be a lot easier to use. We have none made yet but I believe we'll have a prototype in the next week or so. These are for 5.25" not 8 inch. I don't recall 8 inch having a 10 sector. There was a 16 sector and the more common 32. As was mentioned, there was one with holes around the outside as well but I don't know how many holes it had. I have seen one once. As for 16 sector, we expect to make a few, based on demand. Once we have the prototype I hope to have some pictures to demonstrate how it works. Dwight > Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2010 18:20:14 -0500 > Subject: Re: 10 Hole Disk Punch > From: silent700 at gmail.com > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > On Tue, Nov 2, 2010 at 5:46 PM, dwight elvey wrote: > > We are having a number of 10 hole punches made up. The idea is that > > you take a 360K disk and transform it to a hard sectored. > > We are hoping to get 18 or more people that wish to buy one of these. > > If we can get this number it would be about $30 plus post and package. > > Please let me know if you'd like one soon. > > Cool idea - has this been tried and tested? And dumb question....5.25" or 8"? From rdawson16 at hotmail.com Wed Nov 3 00:31:49 2010 From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson) Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2010 00:31:49 -0500 Subject: Information about Tektronix 4107A/4109A graphic terminals In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi David, Eiter I or Ed may be able to help - I know I have a few 4000 series manuals. Ed runs VintageTek, a Tektronix museum here in Beaverton: vintagetek.org We are meeting Thursday for the bi-weekly run at the Tek Surplus store, I ask to see what he has available. Randy > From: d235j.1 at gmail.com > Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2010 23:53:48 -0400 > Subject: Information about Tektronix 4107A/4109A graphic terminals > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > Anyone out there have one of these? I have one of each, but one is > broken and has an incomplete set of ROMs (which appear to be one of > the early versions -- maybe 1.0!). I do have a complete set of version > 8.2 ROMs, dated 1985. > > Someone posted photos of a 4107A a while ago at > http://picasaweb.google.com/glen.slick/Tektronix4107A#5300179266366767714 > . > The 4109A we have is fully intact, but the 4107A has front panel > damage. Also, we're not sure whether or not we have keyboards and > mice. > > Any information, including owner's and service manuals, would be > greatly appreciated. > > --Dave From cclist at sydex.com Wed Nov 3 00:54:28 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 02 Nov 2010 22:54:28 -0700 Subject: HP9845 design article in EDN Message-ID: <4CD096A4.29955.453671@cclist.sydex.com> No one seemed to notice this, but I thought I'd post it for Tony's edification. It's a story in the October 7 EDN from the "Tales from the Cube" back section and deals with solving a problem with the I/O board of the HP9845: http://bit.ly/cNwokC (it's a PDF) Enjoy, Chuck From snhirsch at gmail.com Tue Nov 2 20:10:31 2010 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2010 21:10:31 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Large geometry MFM drive testing In-Reply-To: <4CCFB084.5672.2450FF@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4CCE9B64.153.3AF543@cclist.sydex.com>, <4CCFB084.5672.2450FF@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 2 Nov 2010, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 1 Nov 2010 at 17:53, Steven Hirsch wrote: > > >> I don't know what 'DDO' is, unfortunately. > > Dynamic Drive Overlay. A way of dealing with drives larger than > supported by the BIOS. Basically, enhanced BIOS support for the > drive was written as a boot record on the first track, which would > then be "hidden" to normal applications. SpeedStor was one such > package; there were others, such as Ontrack Disk Manager. Thanks. I dug out a copy of Disk Manager and setup the drive with that. Unfortunately, Spinrite crashed about 25% through and hung the computer. I've never seen that one before! Just started again. > However, the easiest way was to use a controller with its own BIOS. > CMS, WD and SMS made them. Note that there is nothing in the MFM > controller itself that prevents accessing cylinders past 1023. Do you know which models? I have a pile of WD controllers and don't believe any of them have a translation mode. > I've offered you a driver for cylinders 1024-1223 that I used on a > big Priam hard drive with 16 heads if you'd just like to see if your > drive works. That's very kind of you. Was that in e-mail? I haven't received anything from you. Steve -- From billdeg at degnanco.com Wed Nov 3 07:28:33 2010 From: billdeg at degnanco.com (B Degnan) Date: Wed, 03 Nov 2010 08:28:33 -0400 Subject: PDP-11/34A bring up (question about front panel) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CD15571.10608@degnanco.com> > > >> > >> > I am the new keeper of the PDP-11/34A that Jack Rubin rescued a while >> > ago and wrote about here, >> > >> > http://decpicted.blogspot.com/2010/01/pdp-1134a-data-systems-design-dsd-880.html >> > >> > I took it on a road trip from Chicago back to St. Paul after VCFMW >> > in September. >> > >> > I've been doing a lot of cleanup on it and finally got to the point >> > where I could power it on (just the CPU box) this weekend. >> > >> > I think now I need to learn about Grant Continuity ;-) >> > > I look forward to reading more about this. I don't want to hijack this thread except to say that I too just got an 11/34 last week. I still need to clean it and learn more about what it was set to do, but I have a quick question about the front panel. My system has a flat front panel without the white cover cut out resembling a mirror image of the US State of Delaware on it's side. My system has a black front panel with a white rectangular frame around it instead. What is the origin of this variation? Here are pictures from the system as I first got it, if it helps with the card order/comparison purposes. Note that some cards are not installed in the backplane. http://vintagecomputer.net/digital/pdp11-34a/before/ Bill From glen.slick at gmail.com Wed Nov 3 08:50:57 2010 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2010 06:50:57 -0700 Subject: Information about Tektronix 4107A/4109A graphic terminals In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Nov 2, 2010 at 8:53 PM, David Ryskalczyk wrote: > Anyone out there have one of these? I have one of each, but one is > broken and has an incomplete set of ROMs (which appear to be one of > the early versions -- maybe 1.0!). I do have a complete set of version > 8.2 ROMs, dated 1985. > > Someone posted photos of a 4107A a while ago at > http://picasaweb.google.com/glen.slick/Tektronix4107A#5300179266366767714 > . I gave away the Tektronix terminals in those photos to someone local not long after I posted those photos. I had a couple of user manuals to go along with them but no service manuals. -Glen From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Nov 3 08:56:52 2010 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2010 06:56:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: TrueType VT220 font... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: http://sensi.org/~svo/glasstty/ I'm using this right now with PuTTY and it looks great. You'll need to directly enter "15" as the font size as the drop-down doesn't have that point choice. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From p.gebhardt at ymail.com Wed Nov 3 09:10:56 2010 From: p.gebhardt at ymail.com (P Gebhardt) Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2010 14:10:56 +0000 (GMT) Subject: AW: Nuclear Data ND 6600 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <919632.23354.qm@web29116.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Hi Richard, I saved such a system several years ago from being scrapped at my university ( not the console, unfortunately). Unfortunately, I didn't have time yet to check, wether it works or not. But I have the documentation accessible for you, if it might help regarding any specific questions. Best regards, Pierre ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Pierre's collection of classic computers : http://classic-computing.dyndns.org/ ________________________________ Von: Richard An: cctalk at classiccmp.org Gesendet: Montag, den 18. Oktober 2010, 22:34:15 Uhr Betreff: Nuclear Data ND 6600 The Nuclear Data ND 6600 was some sort of laboratory PDP-11 setup. I have a terminal from such a system (very nice green keyboard). I'll upload some pics this week. However, while I was packing up the stuff I bought at the vendor's store, I saw that he had the rest of the system and not just the one terminal. Looks like a couple other terminals, some characteristically PDP-11 enclosure boxes (2x floppies, some other stuff, power enclosure). It looks like this stuff was meant to be rack mounted, except for the terminals, because there's no typical DEC enclosure like I would expect. Googling doesn't turn up anything useful except the usual firewalled citations from IEEE and ACM journals containing product announcements. Does anyone know more about these systems? From the descriptions that leak through google, it appears that it might have had some graphics capability and that interests me quite a bit. I couldn't look at the system close up because it was on a huge pile of stuff and I didn't have time to dig it out. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From IanK at vulcan.com Wed Nov 3 10:44:38 2010 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2010 08:44:38 -0700 Subject: Information about Tektronix 4107A/4109A graphic terminals In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: And that "someone" would be me. :-) I have a user manual for these but no service manual. The programmer reference manual is on Bitsavers. What else do you want to know? -- Ian ________________________________________ From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Glen Slick [glen.slick at gmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, November 03, 2010 6:50 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Information about Tektronix 4107A/4109A graphic terminals On Tue, Nov 2, 2010 at 8:53 PM, David Ryskalczyk wrote: > Anyone out there have one of these? I have one of each, but one is > broken and has an incomplete set of ROMs (which appear to be one of > the early versions -- maybe 1.0!). I do have a complete set of version > 8.2 ROMs, dated 1985. > > Someone posted photos of a 4107A a while ago at > http://picasaweb.google.com/glen.slick/Tektronix4107A#5300179266366767714 > . I gave away the Tektronix terminals in those photos to someone local not long after I posted those photos. I had a couple of user manuals to go along with them but no service manuals. -Glen From rodsmallwood at btconnect.com Wed Nov 3 10:53:40 2010 From: rodsmallwood at btconnect.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2010 15:53:40 -0000 Subject: PDP-11/34A bring up (question about front panel) In-Reply-To: <4CD15571.10608@degnanco.com> References: <4CD15571.10608@degnanco.com> Message-ID: <2BD3D20653854862B5F98EA25F0C4DB4@RodsDevSystem> Hi 1. I also have an 11/34A (No rack) 2. I think what you have may be an industrial version. Regards ? Rod Smallwood ? ?(Wanted NorthStar Horizon S100 Cards) -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of B Degnan Sent: 03 November 2010 12:29 To: cctech at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: PDP-11/34A bring up (question about front panel) > > >> > >> > I am the new keeper of the PDP-11/34A that Jack Rubin rescued a while >> > ago and wrote about here, >> > >> > http://decpicted.blogspot.com/2010/01/pdp-1134a-data-systems-design-dsd-880. html >> > >> > I took it on a road trip from Chicago back to St. Paul after VCFMW >> > in September. >> > >> > I've been doing a lot of cleanup on it and finally got to the point >> > where I could power it on (just the CPU box) this weekend. >> > >> > I think now I need to learn about Grant Continuity ;-) >> > > I look forward to reading more about this. I don't want to hijack this thread except to say that I too just got an 11/34 last week. I still need to clean it and learn more about what it was set to do, but I have a quick question about the front panel. My system has a flat front panel without the white cover cut out resembling a mirror image of the US State of Delaware on it's side. My system has a black front panel with a white rectangular frame around it instead. What is the origin of this variation? Here are pictures from the system as I first got it, if it helps with the card order/comparison purposes. Note that some cards are not installed in the backplane. http://vintagecomputer.net/digital/pdp11-34a/before/ Bill From d235j.1 at gmail.com Wed Nov 3 10:59:42 2010 From: d235j.1 at gmail.com (David Ryskalczyk) Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2010 11:59:42 -0400 Subject: Information about Tektronix 4107A/4109A graphic terminals In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: ROM dumps (since you have a much newer ROM than mine), as well as a scan of any manuals, would be awesome. I'm not only trying to fix it up, but add support for these to MESS. :) These are standard 27C256 32kb ROMs, which most any programmer should be able to dump. manualsplus.com has the service manual but right now I am not able to purchase it -- search for Tektronix 4107 if interested. The markings on the charset ROM (this is inside the terminal, on the side board) would be useful, but I'm quite sure it's the same Version 1.0 that we have. Unfortunately we're missing the keyboard (well, it might be *somewhere* but who knows), and this may also have components needed for proper functionality or emulation. Thanks very much! --Dave On Wed, Nov 3, 2010 at 11:44 AM, Ian King wrote: > And that "someone" would be me. ?:-) ?I have a user manual for these but no service manual. ?The programmer reference manual is on Bitsavers. ?What else do you want to know? ?-- Ian > ________________________________________ > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Glen Slick [glen.slick at gmail.com] > Sent: Wednesday, November 03, 2010 6:50 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Information about Tektronix 4107A/4109A graphic terminals > > On Tue, Nov 2, 2010 at 8:53 PM, David Ryskalczyk wrote: >> Anyone out there have one of these? I have one of each, but one is >> broken and has an incomplete set of ROMs (which appear to be one of >> the early versions -- maybe 1.0!). I do have a complete set of version >> 8.2 ROMs, dated 1985. >> >> Someone posted photos of a 4107A a while ago at >> http://picasaweb.google.com/glen.slick/Tektronix4107A#5300179266366767714 >> . > > I gave away the Tektronix terminals in those photos to someone local > not long after I posted those photos. ?I had a couple of user manuals > to go along with them but no service manuals. > > -Glen > > From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Nov 3 11:14:54 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2010 12:14:54 -0400 Subject: Bill's PDP-11/34A (was Re: PDP-11/34A bring up (question about front panel)) Message-ID: On 11/3/10, B Degnan wrote: > I don't want to hijack this thread except to say that I too just got an > 11/34 last week. I still need to clean it and learn more about what it > was set to do, but I have a quick question about the front panel. My > system has a flat front panel without the white cover cut out resembling > a mirror image of the US State of Delaware on it's side. My system has > a black front panel with a white rectangular frame around it instead. > What is the origin of this variation? I have never seen that mounting frame for the front panel, but perhaps it's related to your "DEC DataSystem" cover panel. Here's a photo I found googling around for "DEC Datasystem" http://www.compuseum.at/portal/Computers/PDP1134/tabid/93/language/en-US/Default.aspx > Here are pictures from the system as I first got it, if it helps with > the card order/comparison purposes. Note that some cards are not > installed in the backplane. > http://vintagecomputer.net/digital/pdp11-34a/before/ Do you have packs for your RL01 drives? Hopefully the packs were removed and the heads locked for transport. An 11/34 w/RL01 is a nice little RT-11 system, though it'd be a bit cramped for 2.9BSD (both in terms of disk and RAM). You could probably also run an older version of RSX-11/M on it too. I think we ran something around RSX-11/M 4.0 or 4.1 on ours in the mid-1980s. -ethan From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Nov 3 11:23:19 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 03 Nov 2010 12:23:19 -0400 Subject: Bill's PDP-11/34A (was Re: PDP-11/34A bring up (question about front panel)) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CD18C77.2040208@neurotica.com> On 11/3/10 12:14 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> I don't want to hijack this thread except to say that I too just got an >> 11/34 last week. I still need to clean it and learn more about what it >> was set to do, but I have a quick question about the front panel. My >> system has a flat front panel without the white cover cut out resembling >> a mirror image of the US State of Delaware on it's side. My system has >> a black front panel with a white rectangular frame around it instead. >> What is the origin of this variation? > > I have never seen that mounting frame for the front panel, but perhaps > it's related to your "DEC DataSystem" cover panel. I've seen that sort of frame a couple of times; they were used in (possibly among other things) embedded applications. It's been a long time but I think I saw them in big GenRad board testers. > Here's a photo I found googling around for "DEC Datasystem" > > http://www.compuseum.at/portal/Computers/PDP1134/tabid/93/language/en-US/Default.aspx Hey, that looks just like the rack my 11/70 is in. > An 11/34 w/RL01 is a nice little RT-11 system, though it'd be a bit > cramped for 2.9BSD (both in terms of disk and RAM). You could > probably also run an older version of RSX-11/M on it too. I think we > ran something around RSX-11/M 4.0 or 4.1 on ours in the mid-1980s. 4.0 and 4.1 run very well on an 11/34, I ran 4.0 briefly then 4.1 for a long time on mine in the mid-1980s. After that I ran RSTS/E v9.4, which also ran great on that system. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Nov 3 11:22:45 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2010 12:22:45 -0400 Subject: Bill's PDP-11/34A (was Re: PDP-11/34A bring up (question about front panel)) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >>?My system has >> a black front panel with a white rectangular frame around it instead. >> What is the origin of this variation? > > I have never seen that mounting frame for the front panel, but perhaps > it's related to your "DEC DataSystem" cover panel. I think DEC made a print server based on the PDP-11/34 with this weird variation of the panel. -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Nov 3 11:26:01 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2010 12:26:01 -0400 Subject: Watts Humphrey In-Reply-To: <4CD0D691.3060701@snarc.net> References: <4CD0D691.3060701@snarc.net> Message-ID: > Watts Humphrey, known as the "father of software quality testing" died a few > days ago. ?He was 83. Deepest sympathies to the family. > Favorite story that I enjoy telling: Watts explained how, when MOBIDIC was > finished and mounted in its 30-foot truck (late 1950s), the Army insisted on > testing it like any other military vehicle. ?So they drove the > computer-truck to the Aberdeen Proving Ground. ?On two test laps, the > computer itself came through with flying colors both times. ?Also on both > laps, the truck broke down! Very typical. The Army labs and proving grounds tend to accumulate with junky trucks that should have been retired. Basically, they are lowest on the vehicle food chain. -- Will From pontus at Update.UU.SE Wed Nov 3 11:29:03 2010 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2010 17:29:03 +0100 Subject: Bill's PDP-11/34A (was Re: PDP-11/34A bring up (question about front panel)) In-Reply-To: <4CD18C77.2040208@neurotica.com> References: <4CD18C77.2040208@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20101103162903.GA7893@Update.UU.SE> On Wed, Nov 03, 2010 at 12:23:19PM -0400, Dave McGuire wrote: > Hey, that looks just like the rack my 11/70 is in. It's a lovely colortheme, Update has an 11/70 with the same colors and logotype, though the rack is wider. (two racks in fact) /P From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Nov 3 11:36:01 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 03 Nov 2010 12:36:01 -0400 Subject: Bill's PDP-11/34A (was Re: PDP-11/34A bring up (question about front panel)) In-Reply-To: <20101103162903.GA7893@Update.UU.SE> References: <4CD18C77.2040208@neurotica.com> <20101103162903.GA7893@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <4CD18F71.9050704@neurotica.com> On 11/3/10 12:29 PM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: >> Hey, that looks just like the rack my 11/70 is in. > > It's a lovely colortheme, Update has an 11/70 with the same colors and > logotype, though the rack is wider. (two racks in fact) Actually I suspect that 11/34's rack is the same one, double-wide, but the picture is cropped. Anybody know for sure? I like the DECdatasystem color scheme, but I like the "original" 11/70 scheme better. I've been toying with transplanting my 11/70 into a standard H960, as I just got another one, and I have a spare purple front panel bezel. This would get me a bit of floor space back, as the H960s are taller and thus can accommodate more equipment vertically, and they waste less space than the "open air" DECdatasystem setup. Transplanting an 11/70 into a new rack is a LOT of work, though, which is why I've been thinking about it, rather than DOING it, for the past two years or so. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From chrise at pobox.com Wed Nov 3 08:11:39 2010 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2010 08:11:39 -0500 Subject: 10 Hole Disk Punch In-Reply-To: <4CD0BC30.1010305@gmail.com> References: <4CD04415.26501.232C882@cclist.sydex.com> <20101103005531.E2AECA580D2@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <4CD0BC30.1010305@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20101103131139.GA9532@n0jcf.net> On Tuesday (11/02/2010 at 06:34PM -0700), leaknoil wrote: > Northstar was 10 sector 5.25" if I remember right. Yes. And we will use them for Heath H8/H89 H-17 floppies. I have a PERCOM floppy interface for SWTPC 6800 systems which also uses 10-hole. And I have a Micropolis 5.25" floppy subsystem on a Multi-Tech (as in modem) MT-500 that uses 16-hole media. I am working with Dwight and a buddy who has a machine shop here in MN to fabricate these punches. Dwight did the design and I had the machine shop connection so we'll see what we can do. We will build a couple prototypes first to iron out the wrinkles and then should be able to make a final statement about the cost and how it will work. Chris > On 11/2/2010 5:55 PM, Dennis Boone wrote: >> > So they're 10 sector 5.25" floppies. Vector Graphic maybe? >> >> To the best of my recollection, the VGs were 16RH, not 10. To which end >> I asked Dwight if a 16 hole model might be feasible. >> >> De > -- Chris Elmquist From pontus at Update.UU.SE Wed Nov 3 11:54:53 2010 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2010 17:54:53 +0100 Subject: Bill's PDP-11/34A (was Re: PDP-11/34A bring up (question about front panel)) In-Reply-To: <4CD18F71.9050704@neurotica.com> References: <4CD18C77.2040208@neurotica.com> <20101103162903.GA7893@Update.UU.SE> <4CD18F71.9050704@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20101103165453.GA8839@Update.UU.SE> On Wed, Nov 03, 2010 at 12:36:01PM -0400, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 11/3/10 12:29 PM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > >> Hey, that looks just like the rack my 11/70 is in. > > > >It's a lovely colortheme, Update has an 11/70 with the same colors and > >logotype, though the rack is wider. (two racks in fact) > > Actually I suspect that 11/34's rack is the same one, double-wide, > but the picture is cropped. Anybody know for sure? I don't think so, you can see the edge of the rack in the picture. Also the logotyp is short enough to fit within one rack. Compare to this (which I think is your rack): http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3a/PDP-11-70-DDS570.jpg And look at Bills blue door: http://vintagecomputer.net/digital/pdp11-34a/before/2010-10-27_20-42-43_160.jpg http://vintagecomputer.net/digital/pdp11-34a/before/2010-10-27_20-42-09_614.jpg I can imagine relocating an 11/70 is a chore, especially if you have lots of peripherals or memory expansions. Regards, Pontus. From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Nov 3 12:04:39 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 03 Nov 2010 13:04:39 -0400 Subject: Bill's PDP-11/34A (was Re: PDP-11/34A bring up (question about front panel)) In-Reply-To: <20101103165453.GA8839@Update.UU.SE> References: <4CD18C77.2040208@neurotica.com> <20101103162903.GA7893@Update.UU.SE> <4CD18F71.9050704@neurotica.com> <20101103165453.GA8839@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <4CD19627.7020105@neurotica.com> On 11/3/10 12:54 PM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: >>>> Hey, that looks just like the rack my 11/70 is in. >>> >>> It's a lovely colortheme, Update has an 11/70 with the same colors and >>> logotype, though the rack is wider. (two racks in fact) >> >> Actually I suspect that 11/34's rack is the same one, double-wide, >> but the picture is cropped. Anybody know for sure? > > I don't think so, you can see the edge of the rack in the picture. Also > the logotyp is short enough to fit within one rack. Compare to this > (which I think is your rack): > > http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3a/PDP-11-70-DDS570.jpg ROFL! Yes, this is mine. :) Yes, good point about the logotype; it' definitely extends past the middle of the rack. > And look at Bills blue door: > > http://vintagecomputer.net/digital/pdp11-34a/before/2010-10-27_20-42-43_160.jpg > http://vintagecomputer.net/digital/pdp11-34a/before/2010-10-27_20-42-09_614.jpg Yes, that one is clearly smaller, a single-width rack, like the one housing the TE-16 in my 11/70 system. It's a separate rack with a cableway on the right, and it's bolted to the main (double-wide) 11/70 rack. > I can imagine relocating an 11/70 is a chore, especially if you have > lots of peripherals or memory expansions. It's not a huge system peripherals-wise, but it has two memory chassis. And those power supplies are HEAVY! -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From pontus at Update.UU.SE Wed Nov 3 12:11:45 2010 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2010 18:11:45 +0100 Subject: Bill's PDP-11/34A (was Re: PDP-11/34A bring up (question about front panel)) In-Reply-To: <4CD19627.7020105@neurotica.com> References: <4CD18C77.2040208@neurotica.com> <20101103162903.GA7893@Update.UU.SE> <4CD18F71.9050704@neurotica.com> <20101103165453.GA8839@Update.UU.SE> <4CD19627.7020105@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20101103171145.GA9754@Update.UU.SE> On Wed, Nov 03, 2010 at 01:04:39PM -0400, Dave McGuire wrote: > >I can imagine relocating an 11/70 is a chore, especially if you have > >lots of peripherals or memory expansions. > > It's not a huge system peripherals-wise, but it has two memory > chassis. And those power supplies are HEAVY! I know! luckily your rack is gorgeous the way it is, it's almost a shame to break it apart. If floorspace is an issue, I could help you out :D Cheers, Pontus. From billdeg at degnanco.com Wed Nov 3 12:19:40 2010 From: billdeg at degnanco.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2010 13:19:40 -0400 Subject: Bill's PDP-11/34A Message-ID: <18633b61$45d88323$65a3eb37$@com> > > I have never seen that mounting frame for the front panel, but perhaps > > it's related to your "DEC DataSystem" cover panel. > > I've seen that sort of frame a couple of times; they were used in > (possibly among other things) embedded applications. It's been a long > time but I think I saw them in big GenRad board testers. > > > Here's a photo I found googling around for "DEC Datasystem" > > > > http://www.compuseum.at/portal/Computers/PDP1134/tabid/93/language/en-US/Def ault.aspx > > Hey, that looks just like the rack my 11/70 is in. > That could explain the original purpose of the 11/34 in my possession, the rack that the system came in has a DEC DataSystem panel: http://vintagecomputer.net/digital/pdp11-34a/before/2010-10-27_20-42-43_160. jpg Bill From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Nov 3 12:32:20 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 03 Nov 2010 13:32:20 -0400 Subject: Bill's PDP-11/34A (was Re: PDP-11/34A bring up (question about front panel)) In-Reply-To: <20101103171145.GA9754@Update.UU.SE> References: <4CD18C77.2040208@neurotica.com> <20101103162903.GA7893@Update.UU.SE> <4CD18F71.9050704@neurotica.com> <20101103165453.GA8839@Update.UU.SE> <4CD19627.7020105@neurotica.com> <20101103171145.GA9754@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <4CD19CA4.5010807@neurotica.com> On 11/3/10 1:11 PM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: >>> I can imagine relocating an 11/70 is a chore, especially if you have >>> lots of peripherals or memory expansions. >> >> It's not a huge system peripherals-wise, but it has two memory >> chassis. And those power supplies are HEAVY! > > I know! luckily your rack is gorgeous the way it is, it's almost a shame > to break it apart. If floorspace is an issue, I could help you out :D Ha! ;) Actually I'd give you the DECdatasystem rack set (not the contents, though!) if we could find a way to get it to you, as floor space really is an issue. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From pontus at Update.UU.SE Wed Nov 3 12:40:39 2010 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2010 18:40:39 +0100 Subject: Bill's PDP-11/34A (was Re: PDP-11/34A bring up (question about front panel)) In-Reply-To: <4CD19CA4.5010807@neurotica.com> References: <4CD18C77.2040208@neurotica.com> <20101103162903.GA7893@Update.UU.SE> <4CD18F71.9050704@neurotica.com> <20101103165453.GA8839@Update.UU.SE> <4CD19627.7020105@neurotica.com> <20101103171145.GA9754@Update.UU.SE> <4CD19CA4.5010807@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20101103174039.GA11344@Update.UU.SE> On Wed, Nov 03, 2010 at 01:32:20PM -0400, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 11/3/10 1:11 PM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > Ha! ;) > > Actually I'd give you the DECdatasystem rack set (not the > contents, though!) if we could find a way to get it to you, as floor > space really is an issue. Hmm, perhaps I could row it over the atlantic? It sort of resembles a cargo boat :) Na, I'll have to be satisfied with the ones at the computer club. /P From dm561 at torfree.net Wed Nov 3 13:45:10 2010 From: dm561 at torfree.net (MikeS) Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2010 13:45:10 -0500 Subject: Information about Tektronix 4107A/4109A graphic terminals References: Message-ID: <333C9FE118C642C295767FA13003AFC7@vl420mt> Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2010 00:31:49 -0500 From: Randy Dawson Subject: RE: Information about Tektronix 4107A/4109A graphic terminals Hi David, Eiter I or Ed may be able to help - I know I have a few 4000 series manuals. Ed runs VintageTek, a Tektronix museum here in Beaverton: vintagetek.org We are meeting Thursday for the bi-weekly run at the Tek Surplus store, I ask to see what he has available. Randy +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ A little OT but speaking of vintage Tek: I have a bunch of their Service Scope 'magazines' from the late 60's; can I assume that these exist elsewhere and I can dispose of them if and when? mike From legalize at xmission.com Wed Nov 3 12:50:04 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 03 Nov 2010 11:50:04 -0600 Subject: Information about Tektronix 4107A/4109A graphic terminals In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In article , David Ryskalczyk writes: > Unfortunately we're missing the keyboard (well, it might be > *somewhere* but who knows), and this may also have components needed > for proper functionality or emulation. Keyboards show up on ebay once in a while. I believe the keyboards are the same as the 4105. Make sure the keyboard has the round connector and not the square one. The square connectors are for the 4205's. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From d235j.1 at gmail.com Wed Nov 3 12:52:40 2010 From: d235j.1 at gmail.com (David Ryskalczyk) Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2010 13:52:40 -0400 Subject: Information about Tektronix 4107A/4109A graphic terminals In-Reply-To: <333C9FE118C642C295767FA13003AFC7@vl420mt> References: <333C9FE118C642C295767FA13003AFC7@vl420mt> Message-ID: > A little OT but speaking of vintage Tek: I have a bunch of their Service > Scope 'magazines' from the late 60's; can I assume that these exist > elsewhere and I can dispose of them if and when? > > mike > Have you checked BAMA? http://bama.edebris.com/manuals/ I'd offer to scan them (I have an Epson GT-15000 scanner with ADF) but an currently overloaded with DEC documentation to do. --Dave From pete at dunnington.plus.com Wed Nov 3 13:47:04 2010 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Wed, 03 Nov 2010 18:47:04 +0000 Subject: PDP-11/34A bring up (question about front panel) In-Reply-To: <4CD15571.10608@degnanco.com> References: <4CD15571.10608@degnanco.com> Message-ID: <4CD1AE28.6000108@dunnington.plus.com> B Degnan wrote: > I don't want to hijack this thread except to say that I too just got an > 11/34 last week. I still need to clean it and learn more about what it > was set to do, but I have a quick question about the front panel. My > system has a flat front panel without the white cover cut out resembling > a mirror image of the US State of Delaware on it's side. My system has > a black front panel with a white rectangular frame around it instead. > What is the origin of this variation? Don't know, but I had one like that too. Only the frame is different, the innards (including the black inner panel) are identical to the normal type. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.plus.com Wed Nov 3 13:47:08 2010 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Wed, 03 Nov 2010 18:47:08 +0000 Subject: Bill's PDP-11/34A (was Re: PDP-11/34A bring up (question about front panel)) In-Reply-To: <4CD18F71.9050704@neurotica.com> References: <4CD18C77.2040208@neurotica.com> <20101103162903.GA7893@Update.UU.SE> <4CD18F71.9050704@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4CD1AE2C.40504@dunnington.plus.com> Dave McGuire wrote: > Actually I suspect that 11/34's rack is the same one, double-wide, but > the picture is cropped. Anybody know for sure? I can't speak for that specific rack, but I've seen several DECdatasytems in racks just like that -- one rack, somewhat wider than normal, but not double width. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Nov 3 14:16:06 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 03 Nov 2010 15:16:06 -0400 Subject: Bill's PDP-11/34A (was Re: PDP-11/34A bring up (question about front panel)) In-Reply-To: <20101103174039.GA11344@Update.UU.SE> References: <4CD18C77.2040208@neurotica.com> <20101103162903.GA7893@Update.UU.SE> <4CD18F71.9050704@neurotica.com> <20101103165453.GA8839@Update.UU.SE> <4CD19627.7020105@neurotica.com> <20101103171145.GA9754@Update.UU.SE> <4CD19CA4.5010807@neurotica.com> <20101103174039.GA11344@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <4CD1B4F6.1050305@neurotica.com> On 11/3/10 1:40 PM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: >> Ha! ;) >> >> Actually I'd give you the DECdatasystem rack set (not the >> contents, though!) if we could find a way to get it to you, as floor >> space really is an issue. > > Hmm, perhaps I could row it over the atlantic? It sort of resembles a > cargo boat :) That would be a sight to see! > Na, I'll have to be satisfied with the ones at the computer club. Ok. :-) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Nov 3 14:39:15 2010 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 03 Nov 2010 12:39:15 -0700 Subject: DiscFerret: Update 2010-11-03 In-Reply-To: <4CD0BE39.6050307@philpem.me.uk> References: <1288029241.9356.127.camel@cheetah> <4CD0BE39.6050307@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4CD1BA63.70709@bitsavers.org> On 11/2/10 6:43 PM, Philip Pemberton wrote: > There are a few other things I'd like to add before release: > when would you be putting the design on line to look at? From classiccmp at crash.com Wed Nov 3 15:44:01 2010 From: classiccmp at crash.com (Steven M Jones) Date: Wed, 03 Nov 2010 13:44:01 -0700 Subject: TrueType VT220 font... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CD1C991.80805@crash.com> Gene Buckle wrote: > > http://sensi.org/~svo/glasstty/ > > I'm using this right now with PuTTY and it looks great. You'll need > to directly enter "15" as the font size as the drop-down doesn't have > that point choice. Thanks Gene - I'm using it right now. And the referenced site includes some discussion of the process and tools used, so it might be of help in making other classiccmp fonts available. /--/S. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Nov 3 15:08:25 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2010 20:08:25 +0000 (GMT) Subject: TRS-80 Model II Manuals In-Reply-To: <292601cb7ad1$63713c30$6600a8c0@portajara> from "Alexandre Souza - Listas" at Nov 2, 10 06:57:27 pm Message-ID: > the rotacional position of the step motor. Ok, I aligned the drive, but it > shown some read errors. The head was dirty. I am not sure I should admit this, but I once spent an afternooning working trhogu hthe read amplifier of a Commodore 8250LP that was giving read errors. Only after spending a couple of hours on it (and finding no fault) did I clean the heads... > > So, he wetted his finger on the mouth, rubbed the wet finger in the > drive head, cleaned with his shirt..."Presto, it works!" he said. And > unbelieveably, it was clean and working as it should always had. > > I shouted loud...For me, he had finished my drive. But I learned that > things in the floppie world wasn't so fragile as I have learned before. And > i cleaned my drives many times using this method, when there wasn't alchool > around. Apparently it was once somewhat common to clean the heads of a VCR by spraying head cleaner onto your finger, hodling it agains the drum and rotating the latter using the other hand. I never tried it... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Nov 3 15:30:45 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2010 20:30:45 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Fragility in the floppy world (was Re: TRS-80 Model II Manuals) In-Reply-To: <4CD02BB5.25973.1D38FFB@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Nov 2, 10 03:18:13 pm Message-ID: > > On 2 Nov 2010 at 17:25, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > > That's the tried-and-true way of reading a diskette that's had Coke > > spilled on it. After the world switched to 3.5" floppies, doing these > > sorts of things (mostly) faded into the mists. > > Years ago, my little group using an Intel MDS-800 finished up a > compiler project way ahead of schedule. Management was so impressed > that they had T-shirts printed up and threw us a party, complete with > (really cheap) champagne. (I still have the T-shirt, but it doesn't > fit me anymore.) > > We had the source code 8" floppies on a little shrine sort of display > so better to appreciate what we'd done. And no, we didn't have a > master backup of the thing, although we might have been able to > recreate it with bits from various people's private copies. I am seriosulyt worried by the fact that a group of programmers who are capable of writing a compiler didn't realise the value of backups. I can't beklieve tht nobody had ever lost data before. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Nov 3 15:42:52 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2010 20:42:52 +0000 (GMT) Subject: HP9845 design article in EDN In-Reply-To: <4CD096A4.29955.453671@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Nov 2, 10 10:54:28 pm Message-ID: > > No one seemed to notice this, but I thought I'd post it for Tony's > edification. It's a story in the October 7 EDN from the "Tales from > the Cube" back section and deals with solving a problem with the I/O > board of the HP9845: > > http://bit.ly/cNwokC (it's a PDF) Interesting... Why specifically for me, though (other than I have an HP9845B which AFAIK uses the same I/O backplane PCB). A few comments... For those who don't know the machine, the I/O backplane fits at the rear, behind the PSU. It has 4 edge connectors for interface modules which plug into the rear of the machine. The PCB carries the connecotrs, some bus buffer chips and not a lot else. The problems with the origianl design seem to indicate that 'there is no such thing as groudn' )(with thin tracks, 2 points that both claim to be 'ground' woukld not always be at the same voltage), and that the most complciated part of a digital circuit is the wire :-) I am also a little suprised by the comment that logic analysers didn't really exist at that time (not that a logic analyser would have been a lot of help fo this fault). I am wondering how the older HP machines were actually debugged. Having repaired several of them, I find a logic alauyser to be next-to-essential. Even more so if the design is not known to be sound. -tony From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Wed Nov 3 15:50:35 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Wed, 03 Nov 2010 20:50:35 +0000 Subject: DiscFerret: Update 2010-11-03 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CD1CB1B.10101@philpem.me.uk> On 03/11/10 04:28, Geoffrey Reed wrote: > > What size are the PC boards, and are you using 2 or 4 layer boards? 160x100 Eurocard, 2-layer FR4, 1.6mm thick, 1oz copper, both sides solder masked, top side component print, 7mil design rules. > What software are you laying out in? Cadsoft EAGLE 5 Standard. The "Freemium" (if it's still available from e14) licence is enough to edit the design if you wanted to. -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From terry at webweavers.co.nz Wed Nov 3 16:19:24 2010 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2010 10:19:24 +1300 Subject: Backups in the modern world References: Message-ID: Given the high reliability of most hard drives these days, I do wonder if many people have forgotten that this technology can occasionally fail. At work here (Not an IT environment), I have an automatic backup which runs every day. A lot of my collegues don't have such a safeguard though. Some younger ones have never experienced a hard disk failure so don't even consider they might happen. The irony is that with nearly all work environments using computers so extensively with less "hard copy" being kept data loss can be catastrophic! I wonder how many home-based computers back up regularly? Again, I know lots of people that don't citing reasons that it's just too hard to set up, they have to buy extra hardware etc. Some of the address books, pictures and home movies on those machines might be irreplaceable though. Although it's a lot rarer than it used to be technology still fails. In my working life, I've had about three catastophic HD failures. In each case, the existance on a "day before" backup mean it was an annoyance rather than a disaster! The latest was only two years ago. Anyway, I'm sure I'm preaching to the converted. (-: Terry Stewart (Tezza) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Thursday, November 04, 2010 9:30 AM Subject: Re: Fragility in the floppy world (was Re: TRS-80 Model II Manuals) >> >> On 2 Nov 2010 at 17:25, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> >> > That's the tried-and-true way of reading a diskette that's had Coke >> > spilled on it. After the world switched to 3.5" floppies, doing these >> > sorts of things (mostly) faded into the mists. >> >> Years ago, my little group using an Intel MDS-800 finished up a >> compiler project way ahead of schedule. Management was so impressed >> that they had T-shirts printed up and threw us a party, complete with >> (really cheap) champagne. (I still have the T-shirt, but it doesn't >> fit me anymore.) >> >> We had the source code 8" floppies on a little shrine sort of display >> so better to appreciate what we'd done. And no, we didn't have a >> master backup of the thing, although we might have been able to >> recreate it with bits from various people's private copies. > > I am seriosulyt worried by the fact that a group of programmers who are > capable of writing a compiler didn't realise the value of backups. I > can't beklieve tht nobody had ever lost data before. > > -tony > From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Nov 3 16:38:39 2010 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2010 14:38:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: TrueType VT220 font... In-Reply-To: <4CD1C991.80805@crash.com> References: <4CD1C991.80805@crash.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 3 Nov 2010, Steven M Jones wrote: > Gene Buckle wrote: >> >> http://sensi.org/~svo/glasstty/ >> I'm using this right now with PuTTY and it looks great. You'll need to >> directly enter "15" as the font size as the drop-down doesn't have that >> point choice. > > Thanks Gene - I'm using it right now. And the referenced site includes some > discussion of the process and tools used, so it might be of help in making > other classiccmp fonts available. > Unfortunately it doesn't look as good in reverse text, but otherwise it's very cool. I'm wondering if the PockeTerm couldn't use this... g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From cclist at sydex.com Wed Nov 3 16:47:22 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 03 Nov 2010 14:47:22 -0700 Subject: HP9845 design article in EDN In-Reply-To: References: <4CD096A4.29955.453671@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Nov 2, 10 10:54:28 pm, Message-ID: <4CD175FA.15969.121CE6E@cclist.sydex.com> On 3 Nov 2010 at 20:42, Tony Duell wrote: > Interesting... Why specifically for me, though (other than I have an > HP9845B which AFAIK uses the same I/O backplane PCB). I seemed to recall that you specifically have an interest in the old HP 9800 series. If you don't care for things such as this, I'll make a note to ignore them. > I am also a little suprised by the comment that logic analysers didn't > really exist at that time (not that a logic analyser would have been a > lot of help fo this fault). I am wondering how the older HP machines > were actually debugged. Having repaired several of them, I find a > logic alauyser to be next-to-essential. Even more so if the design is > not known to be sound. Oscope, in particular storage-tube scopes. The HP 1600A dates from 1976 and was marginally useful. The 1602A dates from 1978. I remember getting one to evaluate from Electro- Rents and thought it very cool, but didn't use it all that much. We had a logic analyzer plugin for the Tek 7400 series scope frame that was good enough--and lots cheaper. --Chuck From arcarlini at iee.org Wed Nov 3 16:46:16 2010 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2010 21:46:16 -0000 Subject: Backups in the modern world In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <8A5F9ADC8CE54CDEBC8C94E8B7207D89@ANTONIOPC> Terry Stewart [terry at webweavers.co.nz] wrote: > Given the high reliability of most hard drives these days, I > do wonder if > many people have forgotten that this technology can > occasionally fail. I guess you know already but I keep coming across people who think that RAID means you'll never need to backup again. Quite how they expect to recover from accidentally deleting something important beats me. In passing, I don't think that drives are *that* reliable these days. Once you're past infant mortality then I'd expect to get a good 5 years out of a drive, but that passes sooner than you'd think (or maybe people upgrade well before that happens :-)). Perhaps SSDs will change the playing field a little, but overall I doubt that reliability levels will shoot up drastically: there's always something that can be shaved slightly thinner to save a few pennies (and if things don't go wrong eventually, how can you sell them a shinier widget?). Antonio From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Nov 3 17:07:50 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2010 15:07:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Backups in the modern world In-Reply-To: <8A5F9ADC8CE54CDEBC8C94E8B7207D89@ANTONIOPC> References: <8A5F9ADC8CE54CDEBC8C94E8B7207D89@ANTONIOPC> Message-ID: <20101103145124.U79252@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 3 Nov 2010 arcarlini at iee.org wrote: > I guess you know already but I keep coming across people who > think that RAID means you'll never need to backup again. Quite > how they expect to recover from accidentally deleting something > important beats me. Or a repeating situation that eats disks. Wrong procedures can be equally destructive. At one point, Stereo Graphics found out that one of their most important accounting files was corrupted. "No problem, we make lots of backups". Sure enough, one week previously, they had backed up the corrupted file onto every one of their half dozen "backup" disks. I had a hell of a time, and only partial success when a client's Apple ][+ would not boot. So, they tried their backup copies. Then they tried EVERY disk they could find. Unlike the SA400 (used by TRS80, etc.), the SA390 with Apple's own logic board could write to a write-protected disk when the controller malfunctioned. With the 3" drives with reversed voltages on the power connector, I wonder how many people systematically tried ALL drives they could find before they realized that the problem was NOT "defective drives". -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cclist at sydex.com Wed Nov 3 17:14:59 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 03 Nov 2010 15:14:59 -0700 Subject: Fragility in the floppy world (was Re: TRS-80 Model II Manuals) In-Reply-To: References: <4CD02BB5.25973.1D38FFB@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Nov 2, 10 03:18:13 pm, Message-ID: <4CD17C73.16330.13B19F4@cclist.sydex.com> On 3 Nov 2010 at 20:30, Tony Duell wrote: > I am seriosulyt worried by the fact that a group of programmers who > are capable of writing a compiler didn't realise the value of backups. > I can't beklieve tht nobody had ever lost data before. It wasn't as bad as it sounds. Since implementation was "divide and conquer", copies of the source existed in some form among the members of the implemenation time. Executables were already widely distributed around the company and to a few customers. Had we lost the source entirely, the practical upshot would have been that someone would have had to spend a day recreating the source disks from team members' copies. We all had years in mainframe product development and were well aware of the fragility of electronic storage. That there was only one set containing the collected source would have mattered little. We'd come from an environment where you started a session with *no* files. At session end, any files created during the session were disposed of--certain names, such as OUTPUT and PUNCH were sent to their appropriate queues, while any other files were discarded. If you wanted to use a previously-created file or create a new "permanent" file, you had to specify its catalog name,version (you could have multiple versions of the same file), account and password, session permissions and the local file name (i.e., the local association) for that file. Backups were handled by system operations on a daily basis, so individual users never had to worry about making personal backups. Inadvertently deleting or modifying a "permanent" file was almost completely unknown. In comparison, Unix seems positively crude in the respect of data security (one aspect of which is to protect a user from himself). And micro-oriented operating systems such as ISIS or DOS are downright primitive. --Chuck From terry at webweavers.co.nz Wed Nov 3 17:14:57 2010 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2010 11:14:57 +1300 Subject: Backups in the modern world References: <8A5F9ADC8CE54CDEBC8C94E8B7207D89@ANTONIOPC> <20101103145124.U79252@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <222814DC2A544BBDB8F0E98C34C348DA@massey.ac.nz> > I had a hell of a time, and only partial success when a client's Apple ][+ > would not boot. So, they tried their backup copies. Then they tried > EVERY disk they could find. Unlike the SA400 (used by TRS80, etc.), the > SA390 with Apple's own logic board could write to a write-protected disk > when the controller malfunctioned. Yes, thats' right. I zapped a drive (actually a couple) once by getting the pin alignment wrong. http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/2009-03-23-teac-apple-disk-drive-repairs.htm By the time I realised what what going on, I'd gone through a lot of my write-protected disks! Thank goodness for ADTPro! Terry Stewart (Tezza) From als at thangorodrim.de Wed Nov 3 17:25:02 2010 From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber) Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2010 23:25:02 +0100 Subject: Backups in the modern world In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20101103222502.GA22568@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> On Thu, Nov 04, 2010 at 10:19:24AM +1300, Terry Stewart wrote: > Given the high reliability of most hard drives these days, I do > wonder if many people have forgotten that this technology can > occasionally fail. At work here (Not an IT environment), I have an > automatic backup which runs every day. A lot of my collegues don't > have such a safeguard though. Some younger ones have never > experienced a hard disk failure so don't even consider they might > happen. The irony is that with nearly all work environments using > computers so extensively with less "hard copy" being kept data loss > can be catastrophic! > > I wonder how many home-based computers back up regularly? Again, I > know lots of people that don't citing reasons that it's just too > hard to set up, they have to buy extra hardware etc. Some of the > address books, pictures and home movies on those machines might be > irreplaceable though. > > Although it's a lot rarer than it used to be technology still fails. > In my working life, I've had about three catastophic HD failures. > In each case, the existance on a "day before" backup mean it was an > annoyance rather than a disaster! The latest was only two years > ago. > > Anyway, I'm sure I'm preaching to the converted. (-: You do, at least some of us ;-) At home, my server has all disks in RAID setups, either RAID1 or RAID5 to reduce the impact of individual disk failure. Of course RAID isn't a replacement for backup, so the data I don't want to lose gets written to DLT and LTO tapes (as well as DVD-RAM for some smaller stuff) from time to time. Backup media leaving the home are of course encrypted in case they get mislaid or "wander off". Some less critical data that doesn't warrant tape storage but would be annoying to lose is replicated over more than one machine. Disk is cheap these days. Kind regards, Alex. -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison From cclist at sydex.com Wed Nov 3 17:31:29 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 03 Nov 2010 15:31:29 -0700 Subject: Backups in the modern world In-Reply-To: <222814DC2A544BBDB8F0E98C34C348DA@massey.ac.nz> References: <8A5F9ADC8CE54CDEBC8C94E8B7207D89@ANTONIOPC>, <222814DC2A544BBDB8F0E98C34C348DA@massey.ac.nz> Message-ID: <4CD18051.23020.14A3217@cclist.sydex.com> On 4 Nov 2010 at 11:14, Terry Stewart wrote: > > I had a hell of a time, and only partial success when a client's > > Apple ][+ would not boot. So, they tried their backup copies. Then > > they tried EVERY disk they could find. Unlike the SA400 (used by > > TRS80, etc.), the SA390 with Apple's own logic board could write to > > a write-protected disk when the controller malfunctioned. > > Yes, thats' right. I zapped a drive (actually a couple) once by > getting the pin alignment wrong. > http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/2009-03-23-teac-apple-disk-dr > ive-repairs.htm I used to have a memo from a sysop who was given the task of running our customer's benchmark periodically to make sure that it ran with the latest batch of system changes. It was a long process, involving two mainframes, a sea of CDC 844 disk-pack drives and a very squirrely multiple-access controller for the disk farm. Data for the benchmark existed on 21 844 packs and we usually kept one working set and two backups on the shelf, though more could be created from tape if need be (a long process). His account of the night's activities started something like this: "I began the benchmark, when one of the drives went offline, I found that I could not bring it online, so I replaced the pack with a backup, which also did not come online. Suspecting the drive to be bad, I swapped the pack with that of another working drive, which refused to come online..." At the end of the night's mayhem, he'd managed to clobber 7 packs and about 11 drives. His memo was very detailed and it was horrifying to read the events as he recorded them. Sort of prescient of the Iomega "Click of Death", no? --Chuck From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Wed Nov 3 17:42:21 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Wed, 03 Nov 2010 22:42:21 +0000 Subject: DiscFerret: Update 2010-11-03 In-Reply-To: <4CD1BA63.70709@bitsavers.org> References: <1288029241.9356.127.camel@cheetah> <4CD0BE39.6050307@philpem.me.uk> <4CD1BA63.70709@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4CD1E54D.7020406@philpem.me.uk> On 03/11/10 19:39, Al Kossow wrote: > On 11/2/10 6:43 PM, Philip Pemberton wrote: > >> There are a few other things I'd like to add before release: >> > > when would you be putting the design on line to look at? Now. :) http://hg.discferret.com/ I'll try and get some PDFs put online tonight, and add this link to the project homepage. For now, that URL links to the version control repository which contains the EAGLE schematics/PCB layouts, firmware, and FPGA microcode. I've also thrown in a few Python test scripts but they probably won't make much sense given that they were written as quick hacks... Thanks, -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Wed Nov 3 17:56:58 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Wed, 03 Nov 2010 22:56:58 +0000 Subject: DiscFerret: First working hardware, firmware and microcode! In-Reply-To: References: <1288029241.9356.127.camel@cheetah> <4CCB28DA.8050509@bitsavers.org> <4CCBE2EB.4020404@philpem.me.uk> <4CCC4732.6080906@bitsavers.org> <4CCC6574.8010103@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4CD1E8BA.3020506@philpem.me.uk> On 01/11/10 16:16, Torfinn Ingolfsen wrote: > Does this imply that the DiscFerret will support 8 inch floppy drives? > (I'm hoping it does...) Ho yus. The current support list includes: * Amstrad 3-inch (if I ever figure out why I can write 3us-spaced pulses and get nothing but garbage back from the drive) * PC 3.5-inch DSDD, DSHD and DSED (yep, 2.88MB too, once I get the IBM drive hooked up and my half-dozen DSED discs arrive) * PC, BBC, etc. 5.25-inch, hard and soft sectored up to 255 sectors * 8-inch, hard and soft sectored up to... you guessed it, 255 sectors * SA1000, ST412, or ST506-interface Winchester hard drives (with adapter board). So that'll be basically all the 20-year-old heavy iron that doesn't have a DEC sticker on it :) * (maybe) Nintendo Famicom Disc System -- if I ever get an FDS to play with. Bridgeboard and mods needed if you want to write FDS discs, and possibly new microcode too. Initial software support should include anything that uses a uPD765 or WD177x/WD179x style controller. Though if people start sending me images of strange disc formats (*cough* AmigaDOS), I might just have to add format support for those too :) -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Nov 3 18:32:48 2010 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 03 Nov 2010 16:32:48 -0700 Subject: DiscFerret: Update 2010-11-03 In-Reply-To: <4CD1CB1B.10101@philpem.me.uk> References: <4CD1CB1B.10101@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4CD1F120.2080100@bitsavers.org> On 11/3/10 1:50 PM, Philip Pemberton wrote: > On 03/11/10 04:28, Geoffrey Reed wrote: >> >> What size are the PC boards, and are you using 2 or 4 layer boards? > > 160x100 Eurocard, 2-layer FR4 buried ground plane ? looks like two signal layers with power but no ground anyway.. looks nice. PIC squirts the config bitstream to the FPGA on reset or does it come from the host? From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Nov 3 18:37:21 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2010 16:37:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: DiscFerret: First working hardware, firmware and microcode! In-Reply-To: <4CD1E8BA.3020506@philpem.me.uk> References: <1288029241.9356.127.camel@cheetah> <4CCB28DA.8050509@bitsavers.org> <4CCBE2EB.4020404@philpem.me.uk> <4CCC4732.6080906@bitsavers.org> <4CCC6574.8010103@philpem.me.uk> <4CD1E8BA.3020506@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <20101103160558.C79252@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 3 Nov 2010, Philip Pemberton wrote: > Ho yus. The current support list includes: > * Amstrad 3-inch (if I ever figure out why I can write 3us-spaced > pulses and get nothing but garbage back from the drive) There are 3 inch drives that will hook up to a PC. Formatting PC-DOS "360K" on a disk and trying to read THAT would at least give you a known content on the disk. In addition, Amdek sold 3" drive sub-systems for Coco and Apple ][. > * PC 3.5-inch DSDD, DSHD and DSED (yep, 2.88MB too, once I get the > IBM drive hooked up and my half-dozen DSED discs arrive) 3.25" and some 2.9" ("SA400 compatible") should also work without serious problems, although watch out for power connector! > * SA1000, ST412, or ST506-interface Winchester hard drives (with > adapter board). So that'll be basically all the 20-year-old heavy iron > that doesn't have a DEC sticker on it :) 25 years, maybe. 20 years would have to include "RLL" and ESDI (RLL has same cabling as ST412, but different encoding and data-rates? , ESDI cabling looks the same but has signal differences) > Initial software support should include anything that uses a uPD765 or > WD177x/WD179x style controller. Though if people start sending me images > of strange disc formats (*cough* AmigaDOS), I might just have to add > format support for those too :) You should already be able to handle most Amiga formats. Think MFM, but without the IBM/WD style sector headers and structure. Have you succeeded at FM yet? MMFM? GCR? (Mac (multiple data transfer rates), Apple 2 (13 and 16 sector), Commodore, Victor/Sirius, Apple Lisa, etc.) Tandy M100 Portable disk drive disks? Whatever your final system can handle, somebody on this list can find another, different format. And, sometimes arguments as to why it is important enough to include :-) -- Fred Cisin cisin at xenosoft.com XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Wed Nov 3 18:52:31 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Wed, 03 Nov 2010 23:52:31 +0000 Subject: DiscFerret: Update 2010-11-03 In-Reply-To: <4CD1F120.2080100@bitsavers.org> References: <4CD1CB1B.10101@philpem.me.uk> <4CD1F120.2080100@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4CD1F5BF.3010006@philpem.me.uk> On 03/11/10 23:32, Al Kossow wrote: >> 160x100 Eurocard, 2-layer FR4 > > buried ground plane ? looks like two signal layers with power but no ground Ground is on the 'back' (solder) side, but some parts of the PSU (the high-current parts!) have their own localised ground planes which attach to the main plane with a grid of vias. > anyway.. looks nice. PIC squirts the config bitstream to the FPGA on reset > or does it come from the host? It comes from the host. The PIC runs a simple bootloader which checks to see if a valid firmware image is loaded. If so, that firmware image is booted, else the PIC drops into "load" mode. The BOOT jumper can also be used to force entry into the bootloader. Once the firmware boots, it waits for a USB connection, then enumerates with the host. The host sends a microcode image to the PIC, which then squirts it into the FPGA over the Passive Serial Configuration Link. Basically, it reads the RBF file, bitswaps each byte, then feeds it to the PIC. When the microcode is loaded, the host does a quick check to make sure the FPGA accepted the bitstream, then queries the microcode type ID and version. After that you program registers on the chip to make it "do stuff". POKE, PEEK and all that jazz :) -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Nov 3 18:55:35 2010 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 03 Nov 2010 16:55:35 -0700 Subject: DiscFerret: First working hardware, firmware and microcode! In-Reply-To: <20101103160558.C79252@shell.lmi.net> References: <1288029241.9356.127.camel@cheetah> <4CCB28DA.8050509@bitsavers.org> <4CCBE2EB.4020404@philpem.me.uk> <4CCC4732.6080906@bitsavers.org> <4CCC6574.8010103@philpem.me.uk> <4CD1E8BA.3020506@philpem.me.uk> <20101103160558.C79252@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4CD1F677.5090304@bitsavers.org> On 11/3/10 4:37 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > 20 years would have to include "RLL" and ESDI (RLL has same cabling as > ST412, but different encoding and data-rates? , ESDI cabling looks the > same but has signal differences) > Biggest difference is that the data separator is on the drive so you get NRZ data back. From dgahling at hotmail.com Wed Nov 3 19:02:06 2010 From: dgahling at hotmail.com (Dan Gahlinger) Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2010 20:02:06 -0400 Subject: Backups in the modern world In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: There really isn't any other option. I have several TB of data, and I use a set of 2TB drives as backups to the production 2TB drives. cost about $100 per drive. once a year, I replace the backup drives with new ones, whether they need it or not. this keeps the data/magnetic cohesion fresh and limits the possibility of loss. I can't use DVDs, because even a single 2TB drive would need about 450 disks. Plus if even one disk gets cracked, scratched or corrupted, there goes that data. Plus the cost is still higher than HDs would be (at least where I am). Blu-ray disks hold more, 25gb, still needs 200 of those, and the price is insane. Also DVDs and Blu-Ray disks would take hours (if not days, weeks, etc) to actually write with one burner. backing up one 2TB to another doesn't take long at all, still long, but much better. I'd love to see someone make a HD jukebox device Dan. > From: terry at webweavers.co.nz > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Backups in the modern world > Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2010 10:19:24 +1300 > > Given the high reliability of most hard drives these days, I do wonder if > many people have forgotten that this technology can occasionally fail. At > work here (Not an IT environment), I have an automatic backup which runs > every day. A lot of my collegues don't have such a safeguard though. Some > younger ones have never experienced a hard disk failure so don't even > consider they might happen. The irony is that with nearly all work > environments using computers so extensively with less "hard copy" being kept > data loss can be catastrophic! > > I wonder how many home-based computers back up regularly? Again, I know > lots of people that don't citing reasons that it's just too hard to set up, > they have to buy extra hardware etc. Some of the address books, pictures > and home movies on those machines might be irreplaceable though. > > Although it's a lot rarer than it used to be technology still fails. In my > working life, I've had about three catastophic HD failures. In each case, > the existance on a "day before" backup mean it was an annoyance rather than > a disaster! The latest was only two years ago. > > Anyway, I'm sure I'm preaching to the converted. (-: > > Terry Stewart (Tezza) > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Tony Duell" > To: > Sent: Thursday, November 04, 2010 9:30 AM > Subject: Re: Fragility in the floppy world (was Re: TRS-80 Model II Manuals) > > > >> > >> On 2 Nov 2010 at 17:25, Ethan Dicks wrote: > >> > >> > That's the tried-and-true way of reading a diskette that's had Coke > >> > spilled on it. After the world switched to 3.5" floppies, doing these > >> > sorts of things (mostly) faded into the mists. > >> > >> Years ago, my little group using an Intel MDS-800 finished up a > >> compiler project way ahead of schedule. Management was so impressed > >> that they had T-shirts printed up and threw us a party, complete with > >> (really cheap) champagne. (I still have the T-shirt, but it doesn't > >> fit me anymore.) > >> > >> We had the source code 8" floppies on a little shrine sort of display > >> so better to appreciate what we'd done. And no, we didn't have a > >> master backup of the thing, although we might have been able to > >> recreate it with bits from various people's private copies. > > > > I am seriosulyt worried by the fact that a group of programmers who are > > capable of writing a compiler didn't realise the value of backups. I > > can't beklieve tht nobody had ever lost data before. > > > > -tony > > > > From teoz at neo.rr.com Wed Nov 3 19:13:14 2010 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2010 20:13:14 -0400 Subject: Backups in the modern world References: , Message-ID: For home users dumping files to more and more HDs is probably the cheapest way. For business users there are things like LTO Ultrium tape drives with 1.5TB native storage for something like $4000. The thing is how much of a home users archives are just things they never use and can be downloaded again as needed? No idea how much data space a mid sized company uses these days. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dan Gahlinger" To: Sent: Wednesday, November 03, 2010 8:02 PM Subject: RE: Backups in the modern world There really isn't any other option. I have several TB of data, and I use a set of 2TB drives as backups to the production 2TB drives. cost about $100 per drive. once a year, I replace the backup drives with new ones, whether they need it or not. this keeps the data/magnetic cohesion fresh and limits the possibility of loss. I can't use DVDs, because even a single 2TB drive would need about 450 disks. Plus if even one disk gets cracked, scratched or corrupted, there goes that data. Plus the cost is still higher than HDs would be (at least where I am). Blu-ray disks hold more, 25gb, still needs 200 of those, and the price is insane. Also DVDs and Blu-Ray disks would take hours (if not days, weeks, etc) to actually write with one burner. backing up one 2TB to another doesn't take long at all, still long, but much better. I'd love to see someone make a HD jukebox device Dan. > From: terry at webweavers.co.nz > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Backups in the modern world > Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2010 10:19:24 +1300 > > Given the high reliability of most hard drives these days, I do wonder if > many people have forgotten that this technology can occasionally fail. At > work here (Not an IT environment), I have an automatic backup which runs > every day. A lot of my collegues don't have such a safeguard though. > Some > younger ones have never experienced a hard disk failure so don't even > consider they might happen. The irony is that with nearly all work > environments using computers so extensively with less "hard copy" being > kept > data loss can be catastrophic! > > I wonder how many home-based computers back up regularly? Again, I know > lots of people that don't citing reasons that it's just too hard to set > up, > they have to buy extra hardware etc. Some of the address books, pictures > and home movies on those machines might be irreplaceable though. > > Although it's a lot rarer than it used to be technology still fails. In > my > working life, I've had about three catastophic HD failures. In each case, > the existance on a "day before" backup mean it was an annoyance rather > than > a disaster! The latest was only two years ago. > > Anyway, I'm sure I'm preaching to the converted. (-: > > Terry Stewart (Tezza) > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Tony Duell" > To: > Sent: Thursday, November 04, 2010 9:30 AM > Subject: Re: Fragility in the floppy world (was Re: TRS-80 Model II > Manuals) > > > >> > >> On 2 Nov 2010 at 17:25, Ethan Dicks wrote: > >> > >> > That's the tried-and-true way of reading a diskette that's had Coke > >> > spilled on it. After the world switched to 3.5" floppies, doing > >> > these > >> > sorts of things (mostly) faded into the mists. > >> > >> Years ago, my little group using an Intel MDS-800 finished up a > >> compiler project way ahead of schedule. Management was so impressed > >> that they had T-shirts printed up and threw us a party, complete with > >> (really cheap) champagne. (I still have the T-shirt, but it doesn't > >> fit me anymore.) > >> > >> We had the source code 8" floppies on a little shrine sort of display > >> so better to appreciate what we'd done. And no, we didn't have a > >> master backup of the thing, although we might have been able to > >> recreate it with bits from various people's private copies. > > > > I am seriosulyt worried by the fact that a group of programmers who are > > capable of writing a compiler didn't realise the value of backups. I > > can't beklieve tht nobody had ever lost data before. > > > > -tony > > > > = From cclist at sydex.com Wed Nov 3 18:55:55 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 03 Nov 2010 16:55:55 -0700 Subject: DiscFerret: First working hardware, firmware and microcode! In-Reply-To: <20101103160558.C79252@shell.lmi.net> References: <1288029241.9356.127.camel@cheetah>, <4CD1E8BA.3020506@philpem.me.uk>, <20101103160558.C79252@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4CD1941B.20105.1978001@cclist.sydex.com> On 3 Nov 2010 at 16:37, Fred Cisin wrote: > > * SA1000, ST412, or ST506-interface Winchester hard drives (with > > adapter board). So that'll be basically all the 20-year-old heavy > > iron that doesn't have a DEC sticker on it :) > > 25 years, maybe. > 20 years would have to include "RLL" and ESDI (RLL has same cabling > as ST412, but different encoding and data-rates? , ESDI cabling looks > the same but has signal differences) Doesn't SMD also fall within the 20 year boundary? Drivetec/Kodak high-density drives? The number of formats out there and the encoding thereof are quite numerous. Just ask one of your friends with a Brother word processor that uses 240K 3.5" floppies... If you can accept Catweasel-type snapshots taken at 28MHz, I can shove you a few of the more interesting ones. --Chuck From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Wed Nov 3 21:12:17 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2010 02:12:17 +0000 Subject: DiscFerret: First working hardware, firmware and microcode! In-Reply-To: <20101103160558.C79252@shell.lmi.net> References: <1288029241.9356.127.camel@cheetah> <4CCB28DA.8050509@bitsavers.org> <4CCBE2EB.4020404@philpem.me.uk> <4CCC4732.6080906@bitsavers.org> <4CCC6574.8010103@philpem.me.uk> <4CD1E8BA.3020506@philpem.me.uk> <20101103160558.C79252@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4CD21681.8000607@philpem.me.uk> On 03/11/10 23:37, Fred Cisin wrote: > There are 3 inch drives that will hook up to a PC. The Amstrad EME231 for one. Catch is, mine seems to be fried. If you enable the write gate and leave WR_DATA high, then read the track, RD_DATA stays high (as you might expect). When actually writing to the disc (a 250ns pulse every 4us), I'm getting garbage back -- random timing gaps between the pulses, from about 2us to over 200us. The EME153 seems to be pulling the same trick (although that's even more broken than the 231: the index sensor is stuck at "no index mark")... I just swapped the 3in drive for my 3.5in test drive (a Samsung SFD321, cheap but it works) and an MF2DD disc I found in a desk drawer, and got a perfect readback. "Something's rotten in the state of Denmark..." > 3.25" and some 2.9" ("SA400 compatible") should also work without serious > problems, although watch out for power connector! Ya make one mistake and they never let you forget it...! > 25 years, maybe. > 20 years would have to include "RLL" and ESDI (RLL has same cabling as > ST412, but different encoding and data-rates? , ESDI cabling looks the > same but has signal differences) Get me the RLL code tables and I'll make that work too :) > You should already be able to handle most Amiga formats. Think MFM, but > without the IBM/WD style sector headers and structure. ... but I don't have any AmigaDOS samples to work from. I'd love to buy an Amiga, but ?65 for an Amiga 600, or ?85 for a 1200? I'm not that desperate. > Have you succeeded at FM yet? Got a good read and a datasep lock, but the decoder isn't done yet. > MMFM? No samples. > GCR? (Mac (multiple data transfer rates), Apple 2 (13 and 16 sector), > Commodore, Victor/Sirius, Apple Lisa, etc.) See above -- need disc samples to do this. Although a 1541 and an X1541 cable would likely be enough to get the Commodore samples, and 1541s aren't especially expensive (though from what I've heard they lack a Track0 sensor, tend to bang the head out of alignment, and in true Commodore fashion the PSUs tend to burn out in very short order). > Tandy M100 Portable disk drive disks? No samples :( Sounds interesting though. According to the COCI Wiki: "Uses standard 720K 3.5" floppy disks; format is single side, 40 tracks, 2 sectors per track, 1280 bytes per sector. In short, incompatible with just about everything." FM format, 1280 bytes per sector and two sectors per track.... fun. > Whatever your final system can handle, somebody on this list can find > another, different format. And, sometimes arguments as to why it is > important enough to include :-) If I can figure it out, I'll add it to the format specs. Seems a bit pointless making an analyser that can only handle one or two formats. What's amazing at this point is that I've added all these features, and I'm still only using 8% of the logic capacity of the FPGA, and none of the on-chip Block RAM (!) Thanks, -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From rescue at hawkmountain.net Wed Nov 3 21:25:28 2010 From: rescue at hawkmountain.net (Curtis H. Wilbar Jr.) Date: Wed, 03 Nov 2010 22:25:28 -0400 Subject: Fragility in the floppy world (was Re: TRS-80 Model II Manuals) In-Reply-To: <4CD02BB5.25973.1D38FFB@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <04DB6CF35ED54B03ADA1BB0D4D494554@massey.ac.nz>, <4CD02BB5.25973.1D38FFB@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4CD21998.1000005@hawkmountain.net> Reminds me of when I was in college and a friend had his diskette library for his C64 under his "college cheap" folding card table.... he spilled milk while eating cereal and being "college lazy" didn't bother with it right away..... What he didn't realize is that there was a hole in the table... and it was right above his precious C64 software library..... Diskettes and milk.... breakfast of nobody ! He thought all was lost.... I had him buy new floppies, I opened the jackets of all of them, cleaned each disk, sacrificed one new floppy and one at a time we reduplicated the entire library. Nothing lost. I still have those 40+ disks (minus the jackets) somewhere :-) -- Curt Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 2 Nov 2010 at 17:25, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > >> That's the tried-and-true way of reading a diskette that's had Coke >> spilled on it. After the world switched to 3.5" floppies, doing these >> sorts of things (mostly) faded into the mists. >> > > Years ago, my little group using an Intel MDS-800 finished up a > compiler project way ahead of schedule. Management was so impressed > that they had T-shirts printed up and threw us a party, complete with > (really cheap) champagne. (I still have the T-shirt, but it doesn't > fit me anymore.) > > We had the source code 8" floppies on a little shrine sort of display > so better to appreciate what we'd done. And no, we didn't have a > master backup of the thing, although we might have been able to > recreate it with bits from various people's private copies. > > About a half-hour into the shindig, someone knocked a full glass of > bubbly onto the floppies and thoroughly saturated them. Very sticky > stuff. > > We removed the cookies from their jackets, took them to the men's > lav, washed them in the sink and wiped them dry with paper towels > right out of the dispenser and stuck the floppies into new jackets. > No harm done. > > It was THEN that we made a set of backups... > > SSSD floppies were TOUGH. To the best of my recollection, they were > brown-box Dysans. > > --Chuck > > From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Nov 3 21:28:31 2010 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 03 Nov 2010 19:28:31 -0700 Subject: DiscFerret: First working hardware, firmware and microcode! In-Reply-To: <4CD21681.8000607@philpem.me.uk> References: <1288029241.9356.127.camel@cheetah> <4CCB28DA.8050509@bitsavers.org> <4CCBE2EB.4020404@philpem.me.uk> <4CCC4732.6080906@bitsavers.org> <4CCC6574.8010103@philpem.me.uk> <4CD1E8BA.3020506@philpem.me.uk> <20101103160558.C79252@shell.lmi.net> <4CD21681.8000607@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4CD21A4F.3080503@bitsavers.org> On 11/3/10 7:12 PM, Philip Pemberton wrote: >> 25 years, maybe. >> 20 years would have to include "RLL" and ESDI (RLL has same cabling as >> ST412, but different encoding and data-rates? , ESDI cabling looks the >> same but has signal differences) > > Get me the RLL code tables and I'll make that work too :) > 2,7 RLL is in the National application note AN-0413_Disk_Interface_Design_Guide_and_Users_Manual_Jan86 page 6 What were you going to use for the differential receiver/driver? 5v or 3.3v part? From d235j.1 at gmail.com Wed Nov 3 21:34:26 2010 From: d235j.1 at gmail.com (David Ryskalczyk) Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2010 22:34:26 -0400 Subject: DiscFerret: Update 2010-11-03 In-Reply-To: <4CD1F5BF.3010006@philpem.me.uk> References: <4CD1CB1B.10101@philpem.me.uk> <4CD1F120.2080100@bitsavers.org> <4CD1F5BF.3010006@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: >> buried ground plane ? looks like two signal layers with power but no >> ground Hmm ... would this be possible with a two-layer design, and no planes? --Dave From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Nov 3 21:39:58 2010 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 03 Nov 2010 19:39:58 -0700 Subject: DiscFerret: First working hardware, firmware and microcode! In-Reply-To: <4CD21A4F.3080503@bitsavers.org> References: <1288029241.9356.127.camel@cheetah> <4CCB28DA.8050509@bitsavers.org> <4CCBE2EB.4020404@philpem.me.uk> <4CCC4732.6080906@bitsavers.org> <4CCC6574.8010103@philpem.me.uk> <4CD1E8BA.3020506@philpem.me.uk> <20101103160558.C79252@shell.lmi.net> <4CD21681.8000607@philpem.me.uk> <4CD21A4F.3080503@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4CD21CFE.2030309@bitsavers.org> On 11/3/10 7:28 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > On 11/3/10 7:12 PM, Philip Pemberton wrote: > >>> 25 years, maybe. >>> 20 years would have to include "RLL" and ESDI (RLL has same cabling as >>> ST412, but different encoding and data-rates? , ESDI cabling looks the >>> same but has signal differences) >> National AN-500 has a reasonable description of ESDI the actual ESDI spec is on bitsavers http://bitsavers.org/pdf/cdc/discs/interface_specs/77738076-D2_ESDIspec.pdf From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Wed Nov 3 21:47:29 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2010 02:47:29 +0000 Subject: DiscFerret: Update 2010-11-03 In-Reply-To: References: <4CD1CB1B.10101@philpem.me.uk> <4CD1F120.2080100@bitsavers.org> <4CD1F5BF.3010006@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4CD21EC1.3080503@philpem.me.uk> On 04/11/10 02:34, David Ryskalczyk wrote: >>> buried ground plane ? looks like two signal layers with power but no >>> ground > > Hmm ... would this be possible with a two-layer design, and no planes? It already *is* a two layer design with no buried planes... why get rid of the ground fills? They're good for improving the EMC and signal integrity figures, among other things... If you wanted 4-layer then that's doable too, but expect the boards to double in price. -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Nov 3 21:54:52 2010 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 03 Nov 2010 19:54:52 -0700 Subject: DiscFerret: First working hardware, firmware and microcode! In-Reply-To: <4CD21CFE.2030309@bitsavers.org> References: <1288029241.9356.127.camel@cheetah> <4CCB28DA.8050509@bitsavers.org> <4CCBE2EB.4020404@philpem.me.uk> <4CCC4732.6080906@bitsavers.org> <4CCC6574.8010103@philpem.me.uk> <4CD1E8BA.3020506@philpem.me.uk> <20101103160558.C79252@shell.lmi.net> <4CD21681.8000607@philpem.me.uk> <4CD21A4F.3080503@bitsavers.org> <4CD21CFE.2030309@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4CD2207C.1000209@bitsavers.org> an OK description of the SMS RLL decoder chip is under http://bitsavers.org/pdf/sms/asic/OMTI_5027C_RLL_VCO_Encode_Decode_Dec86.pdf From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Nov 3 22:42:44 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 03 Nov 2010 23:42:44 -0400 Subject: Backups in the modern world In-Reply-To: <20101103222502.GA22568@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> References: <20101103222502.GA22568@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> Message-ID: <4CD22BB4.3030209@neurotica.com> On 11/3/10 6:25 PM, Alexander Schreiber wrote: > At home, my server has all disks in RAID setups, either RAID1 or RAID5 > to reduce the impact of individual disk failure. Of course RAID isn't > a replacement for backup, so the data I don't want to lose gets written > to DLT and LTO tapes (as well as DVD-RAM for some smaller stuff) from > time to time. Backup media leaving the home are of course encrypted in > case they get mislaid or "wander off". > > Some less critical data that doesn't warrant tape storage but would > be annoying to lose is replicated over more than one machine. > Disk is cheap these days. I use a centralized storage pool of fourteen spindles in a redundant configuration, all backed up to tape three levels deep. I lost data once...never again. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Thu Nov 4 01:08:59 2010 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2010 22:08:59 -0800 Subject: Fragility in the floppy world (was Re: TRS-80 Model II Manuals) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <27704f2a960f74aa01e914120352a878@cs.ubc.ca> On 2010 Nov 3, at 12:30 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > I am seriosulyt worried by the fact that a group of programmers who are > capable of writing a compiler didn't realise the value of backups. I > can't beklieve tht nobody had ever lost data before. Horrors! Crucify them. And when you're done, you can turn your serious worry to the fellow who perpetrated this gross incompetence: On 2010 Nov 3, at 12:08 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > I am not sure I should admit this, but I once spent an afternooning > working trhogu hthe read amplifier of a Commodore 8250LP that was > giving > read errors. Only after spending a couple of hours on it (and finding > no > fault) did I clean the heads... From scanning.cc at gmail.com Thu Nov 4 00:22:34 2010 From: scanning.cc at gmail.com (alan canning) Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2010 22:22:34 -0700 Subject: TTL HEX LED driver chip In-Reply-To: References: <4CCEF234.19101.18F2FF4@cclist.sydex.com> <4CD01CDD.2627.1999499@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Nov 2, 2010 at 7:03 PM, William Donzelli wrote: > > We could restrict the solution to HTL parts. That might be > > interesting as they didn't reach any high level of integration. > > ...and if you need HTL, I've got it. > > -- > Will > I can do it with one 16 pin non-programmable TTL device ; National DM9368 ( sorry if somebody already pointed this one out as I don't have time to go thru 75 posts right now.... In combinational logic I'm looking at turning 34 segments OFF instead of turning 78 segments ON. No discrete parts. I'm a purist. Best regards, Steven From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Thu Nov 4 01:34:32 2010 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2010 22:34:32 -0800 Subject: TTL HEX LED driver chip In-Reply-To: References: <4CCEF234.19101.18F2FF4@cclist.sydex.com> <4CD01CDD.2627.1999499@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <5f18241d2e49e73044f38b78c2c43ee7@cs.ubc.ca> On 2010 Nov 3, at 9:22 PM, alan canning wrote: > I can do it with one 16 pin non-programmable TTL device ; National > DM9368 ( > sorry if somebody already pointed this one out as I don't have time to > go > thru 75 posts right now.... Yes, that's exactly where the discussion started, somebody asked if there was a single-chip hex 7-seg decoder, the 9368 (and other 93xx) were pointed out. > In combinational logic I'm looking at turning 34 segments OFF instead > of > turning 78 segments ON. No discrete parts. I'm a purist. I'm still looking at permutations to see if I can eliminate a couple more AND gates and get it down to 9 packages from 10 (for the SSI solution). From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Nov 4 00:50:33 2010 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Wed, 03 Nov 2010 23:50:33 -0600 Subject: TTL HEX LED driver chip In-Reply-To: References: <4CCEF234.19101.18F2FF4@cclist.sydex.com> <4CD01CDD.2627.1999499@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4CD249A9.1070305@jetnet.ab.ca> On 03/11/2010 11:22 PM, alan canning wrote: > I can do it with one 16 pin non-programmable TTL device ; National DM9368 ( > sorry if somebody already pointed this one out as I don't have time to go > thru 75 posts right now.... > > In combinational logic I'm looking at turning 34 segments OFF instead of > turning 78 segments ON. No discrete parts. I'm a purist. I wonder what the logic would be for using 16 segment displays? You have more segments, but less terms. > Best regards, Steven > Ben. From zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com Thu Nov 4 00:52:54 2010 From: zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2010 01:52:54 -0400 Subject: Watts Humphrey In-Reply-To: <4CD0D691.3060701@snarc.net> References: <4CD0D691.3060701@snarc.net> Message-ID: <4CD24A36.7080905@30below.com> On 11/02/2010 11:27 PM, Evan Koblentz wrote: > Watts Humphrey, known as the "father of software quality testing" died a > few days ago. He was 83. My condolences to family & friends... > Watts was a keynote speaker at VCF East 5.0 (two years ago.) :-( For the first time in my existence, I was too early. The only VCF-East I was able to enjoy was back in '04... Take care, Roger "Merch" Merchberger From evan at snarc.net Thu Nov 4 01:07:43 2010 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2010 02:07:43 -0400 Subject: Watts Humphrey In-Reply-To: <4CD24A36.7080905@30below.com> References: <4CD0D691.3060701@snarc.net> <4CD24A36.7080905@30below.com> Message-ID: <4CD24DAF.9060307@snarc.net> > >> Watts was a keynote speaker at VCF East 5.0 (two years ago.) > > :-( For the first time in my existence, I was too early. The only > VCF-East I was able to enjoy was back in '04... Ah yes, the year of Jay West's "Great Trailer Incident" .... not eclipsed until Vince Briel's "Honey I forget the kits" adventure in 2008. From evan at snarc.net Thu Nov 4 01:09:55 2010 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2010 02:09:55 -0400 Subject: Watts Humphrey In-Reply-To: <4CD24DAF.9060307@snarc.net> References: <4CD0D691.3060701@snarc.net> <4CD24A36.7080905@30below.com> <4CD24DAF.9060307@snarc.net> Message-ID: <4CD24E33.806@snarc.net> > >> >>> Watts was a keynote speaker at VCF East 5.0 (two years ago.) >> >> :-( For the first time in my existence, I was too early. The only >> VCF-East I was able to enjoy was back in '04... > > Ah yes, the year of Jay West's "Great Trailer Incident" .... not > eclipsed until Vince Briel's "Honey I forget the kits" adventure in 2008. Correction, 2009. From evan at snarc.net Thu Nov 4 01:15:32 2010 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2010 02:15:32 -0400 Subject: Watts Humphrey In-Reply-To: <4CD24E33.806@snarc.net> References: <4CD0D691.3060701@snarc.net> <4CD24A36.7080905@30below.com> <4CD24DAF.9060307@snarc.net> <4CD24E33.806@snarc.net> Message-ID: <4CD24F84.3020206@snarc.net> > >> >>> >>>> Watts was a keynote speaker at VCF East 5.0 (two years ago.) >>> >>> :-( For the first time in my existence, I was too early. The only >>> VCF-East I was able to enjoy was back in '04... >> >> Ah yes, the year of Jay West's "Great Trailer Incident" .... not >> eclipsed until Vince Briel's "Honey I forget the kits" adventure in >> 2008. > > Correction, 2009. I'm an idiot. It * WAS * 2008. Sorry!! From cclist at sydex.com Thu Nov 4 01:25:53 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 03 Nov 2010 23:25:53 -0700 Subject: TTL HEX LED driver chip In-Reply-To: <5f18241d2e49e73044f38b78c2c43ee7@cs.ubc.ca> References: <4CCEF234.19101.18F2FF4@cclist.sydex.com>, , <5f18241d2e49e73044f38b78c2c43ee7@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <4CD1EF81.21535.2FD78FF@cclist.sydex.com> On 3 Nov 2010 at 22:34, Brent Hilpert wrote: > Yes, that's exactly where the discussion started, somebody asked if > there was a single-chip hex 7-seg decoder, the 9368 (and other 93xx) > were pointed out. And it probably should be pointed out that the part probably originated with Fairchild as part of its 9300 MSI TTL family. Interestingly, the earliest 7-segment TTL decoder (1960s), the 9307, had the horizontal segments on the "6" and "9". Was it contemporary taste that caused later versions to drop the segment? --Chuck From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Nov 4 01:55:08 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 03 Nov 2010 23:55:08 -0700 Subject: DiscFerret: First working hardware, firmware and microcode! In-Reply-To: <4CD1F677.5090304@bitsavers.org> References: <1288029241.9356.127.camel@cheetah> <4CCB28DA.8050509@bitsavers.org> <4CCBE2EB.4020404@philpem.me.uk> <4CCC4732.6080906@bitsavers.org> <4CCC6574.8010103@philpem.me.uk> <4CD1E8BA.3020506@philpem.me.uk> <20101103160558.C79252@shell.lmi.net> <4CD1F677.5090304@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4CD258CC.6050907@brouhaha.com> Al wrote: > > Biggest difference is that the data separator is on the drive so you > get NRZ > data back. > A possible problem with such drives (including ESDI, SMD, etc.) is that the read gate from the controller to the drive needs to transition to the active state at the right time (during a PLO sync field), or the data separator may lock out-of-phase to the MFM data. In other words, it may think that clock pulses are data pulses and vice versa. Whether this happens depends a lot on the design of the drive electronics. This makes it a pain to dump all the bits on a track at once, when you don't have a priori knowledge of the track format, because you can't just assert read gate continuously and get good NRZ data from the drive. Even when you get good data for one sector, the data separator can lose sync at the write splice between that sector and the next ID field, resulting in reading incorrect data for the following sector. Eric From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Thu Nov 4 09:36:14 2010 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2010 09:36:14 -0500 Subject: Backups in the modern world In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CD2C4DE.8070103@compsys.to> >Terry Stewart wrote: > Given the high reliability of most hard drives these days, I do wonder > if many people have forgotten that this technology can occasionally > fail. At work here (Not an IT environment), I have an automatic > backup which runs every day. A lot of my collegues don't have such a > safeguard though. Some younger ones have never experienced a hard > disk failure so don't even consider they might happen. The irony is > that with nearly all work environments using computers so extensively > with less "hard copy" being kept data loss can be catastrophic! Since my primary use of my computer these days is to write software that runs under the PDP-11 instruction set (I use Ersatz-11 and sometimes SIMH), I find that backups throughout the day are essential as I make changes to the program. When I used a DEC CPU, I had only limited storage until the PDP-11/83 which finally had 3 * 600 MB Hitachi ESDI drives. At the end of a successful project, all 3 drives were identical. There were also (initially) TK70 backups of the data (required 3 tapes) or later Sony SMO S-501 media (required 3 sides of media). While writing a full TK70 tape took about 60 minutes, about double the time as the magneto optical, the big advantage of the latter was the random access nature of the media allowing any file to be accessed equally. In addition, the backup of a single RT-11 partition (32 MB) could also be done in just 4 minutes as opposed to having to write all 8 or all 4 partitions to the TK70 tape. When I shifted to the present Pentium III, I started with 3 * 40 GB ATA drives with the C: drive holding the current files and the D: and E: drives holding backups. I use GHOST to copy the C: drive to an image file which usually requires about 1 GB to hold all of the files from the C: drive. Once every 4 months, I copy 4 monthly backups to DVD for permanent storage, i.e. 3 DVDs a year to hold 12 monthly backups. I have been using the Pentium III since 2002 and replaced the 3 * 40 GB ATA drives with 3 * 134 GB ATA drives around 2007 after they started becoming unreliable. Since I find that software corruption is MUCH more likely a problem than hardware failure of all 3 drives, RAID does not seem to be very useful. > I wonder how many home-based computers back up regularly? Again, I > know lots of people that don't citing reasons that it's just too hard > to set up, they have to buy extra hardware etc. Some of the address > books, pictures and home movies on those machines might be > irreplaceable though. Agreed!! As I develop a program, I make catastrophic errors which crash the operating system. For this reason, I found, by experience that running with the disk images in READ ONLY mode means that I never have to be concerned that any of the disk files are corrupted during testing. Just last year, I found that one of the standard development programs has a bug (been there for 20 years now) that causes the operating system (RT-11 obviously) to crash during one of the many operations leading from the source file to the final executable program file. Under Ersatz-11, that only means a "BOOT DU0:" again to get started and since the disk files are all in READ ONLY images, nothing ever gets lost. And whereas on the PDP-11/83, backing up a 32 MB RT-11 partition took about 4 minutes and an equal 4 minutes to verify, on the Pentium III under Ersatz-11, making a copy of a 32 MB image file to a backup image files takes only about 2 seconds. It is now easier to just backup the entire 32 MB image file as frequently as each file on the 32 MB disk image file is changed as I would have done with just the one file on the PDP-11/83 to the one file on the backup drive. So every time I spend 5 or 10 minutes editing a source file, I then spend the 2 seconds to make a backup copy even before I verify that the assembly is without any errors. Once or twice a month, I usually make such a blunder that it is easier to go back one step from the backup rather than fix the mess. So backups throughout the day are a big help. And since they takes only 2 seconds and two keystrokes to invoke the command to one of 4 backup images, the overhead is too short to even consider a disadvantage. > Although it's a lot rarer than it used to be technology still fails. > In my working life, I've had about three catastophic HD failures. In > each case, the existance on a "day before" backup mean it was an > annoyance rather than a disaster! The latest was only two years ago. Over the past 30 years with DEC hardware, except for the RD53 drives, there were few outright failures before I could recover the contents and probably only about 5 drives (again except for the RD53s) actually failed. On the PC, it has been my experience that about 5 years is probably the limit. While failure is still usually graceful enough to recover all of the data if prompt action is taken, the warning is usually less than 1 week before the problems become worth much more than the cost of a replacement drive. If I don't finish my upgrade to a new core 2 duo system with 3 * 1TB SATA II drives by another year, I will probably have to replace the 3 ATA drives again. Over the past 8 years, I did experience 2 complete drive failures for unexplained reasons. Fortunately, everything had been backed up quite recently and GHOST was able completely recover the C: drive in one case and make another copy of the D: drive from the E: drive in the other case. The two complete losses of the physical drives (contents only) must have been software since GHOST recovered the whole drive without a problem and a LLF (Low Level Format) was not required. On the PC side of the files, I used to backup once a day. Now I find that my activity is low enough that 3 backups a month are sufficient with the end of month backup being retained for copy to the DVD. One VERY helpful aspect of GHOST is that along with the compressed image file of all the files on the C: drive, a text file with a list of all 10,051 files on the C: drive plus the last date modified and a 32-bit CRC is also produced. I quick run of FC.EXE lets me determine about how many and which files have changed from any previous backup. I decided to keep the FAT32 file structure for the new system with Windows XP since the version of GHOST does not support the CRC text file under NTFS. My present Pentium III system still runs very nicely under Windows 98SE. > Anyway, I'm sure I'm preaching to the converted. (-: YES!!! Jerome Fine >> I am seriosulyt worried by the fact that a group of programmers who are >> capable of writing a compiler didn't realise the value of backups. I >> can't beklieve tht nobody had ever lost data before. >> >> -tony > Yes! I can't understand how even major software projects are abandoned without reliable backups of the software. Most major software manufacturers (including DEC) did not bother to keep archived copies of each version of a release for more than a few years so that at this point, the hobby community is left with almost no historical record except that which the hobby users have found by themselves. Jerome Fine From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Thu Nov 4 09:39:53 2010 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2010 09:39:53 -0500 Subject: CDC STAR was: Happy Birthday VAX 11/780 (influence of) In-Reply-To: <4CCD4AD0.28674.362B3F@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4CCC23A0.9876.E985BD@cclist.sydex.com>, <4CCD6D3D.9060409@compsys.to> <4CCD4AD0.28674.362B3F@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4CD2C5B9.50503@compsys.to> >Chuck Guzis wrote: >>On 31 Oct 2010 at 8:21, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > >>Interesting!! I worked for CDC in Toronto from around 1972 to 1977 on >>the local PL-50 program. IIRC, the PL-50 was a much slower version of >>the STAR-100, but with the same instruction set. Initially, the goal >>was to write an operating system. >> >I was part of the Sunnyvale mafia and worked with quite a number of >your Canadian co-workers. Anil and I later partnered up on the >FORTRAN compiler for the ETA-10. You probably remember that the PL- >50/STAR-65 met an unfortunate fate at the hands of the corporate >"leave nothing behind" people. I witnessed firsthand, the >destruction of the two STAR-1B systems a couple of years later. It >wasn't pretty--a dumpster, bolt cutters and large hammers. I saved a >heatsink from the power supply--there wasn't much else left intact. >I begged to be allowed to take the ROS stack from one system, but no >such luck. The stations were removed and sent back to Arden Hills. > > Interesting! I do seem to remember hearing about that episode, but did not recall it any longer until you reminded me. >I'm going from memory on this one, but there's some STAR literature >on bitsavers if you want to check my facts. > >256 registers of 64 bits; if halfword mode was selected, the lower >128 were doubled and the upper 128 were inaccessible. Many registers >had special meanings, including program status, cycle timer and a few >others. > >Internally, memory was fetched 512 bits ("Super word" or "sword"; >really 544 bits with ECC included) and the vector pipes were 128 bits >wide (2 single-precision results per cycle). > >An odd machine in that scalar operations were most decidedly RISC in >attitude. For example, there were only load and store register- >memory operations and one had to use 2 instructions (EX and ELEN) to >enter a full 64-bit immediate constant into a register. No stack or >auto-increment/decremet per se; subroutine linkage was done with a >sort of S/360-style LM-STM combo "swap" instruction that >simultaneously stored and loaded any number of registers. The >machine architecture itself was basically 3-address, so instructions >were either 32 bits or 64 bits in length. > > I am almost certain that the subroutine linkage was quite transparent to the user, so a stack of sorts must have been maintained. However, I can't remember any of the details, so it's a mute point of how it was done. I did recall that there were 256 registers with some being 32 bits and others being 64 bits. Now that you mention the details, I do remember how useful it was to have sufficient temporary registers for almost every situation. With the 32 bit X86 instruction set, there are too few registers and even the 6 registers (0 to 5) on the PDP-11 are no better. On the other hand, with L1 cache on the Pentium III (and later models), data storage is really not a timing problem for even a few K bytes of data. >Before an ECO ("Rev. R") was installed on all systems, all registers >could also be addressed as the lower 256 words of user memory address >space. This hugely complicated instruction scheduling and so it was >determined that it wasn't needed. > > I never found anyone who made use of the registers for code since there did not seem to be many times that operating system code could make use if that feature. >I know you guys used the RED OS, but we had to use STAR-OS from LLL >as our base in Sunnyvale. It was basically a message-passing OS with >a controller started by the job scheduler, which could have as many >controllees as desired. You could send a message up the chain, one >level, or to the top or broadcast to all controllees. I recall that >the termination message content was the characters "ALL DONE". > >Regarding paging, I saw my share of DEADBEEF codes (was the STAR OS >the first to use this failure code?). At some point we went from a >demand-paging algorithm to a working-set one, but the stuff that the >pager had to keep track of made the code a nightmare. Jim Smith >suffered a lot on that thing. It didn't help that we had to scavenge >time on the customer systems at LLL or hop the "noon balloon" out of >San Jose to use the system at ADL. > > Fortunately, at CDC in Toronto, we had our own PL-50 (STAR-65) hardware. I used to get the night shift from midnight to 8 AM every Friday morning for testing on the paging algorithm. While 8 hours was probably more time than I usually needed, few people wanted to start at 6 AM. I think I remember that RED OS may have been the name, but I am not sure. Even most of the code for the paging was MALUS with a few inline instructions when absolutely necessary. As I think I mentioned, the demand paging was helped by keeping a pool of unaltered pages available so that only the READ of the new page was required when the user program had a page fault. Every time the operating system code was invoked to handle a page fault and a new user page was needed, after the READ was initiated and the system was waiting, the LRU stack of user pages was checked to determine if there were any altered pages near the bottom which would likely be discarded. If so, that user page was backed up on disk and then kept as being unaltered (unless the user referenced it again - in which case the hardware again set the altered bit) and could immediately be removed from the current available user pages when it became the actual LRU page. >One thing that I never got to try on the 100 was seeing how long a >maximum-length packed BCD divide would take. Given that the byte >instruction field lengths were 16 bits, it meant either 65K or 131K >digits... > >One memory I have is being sent to Arden Hills in January during the >OPEC oil embargo and settling in for the night in the machine room at >ADL because it was warmer than my room at the Ramada. > >I"d love to find someone who spent time on the TI ASC to compare >notes... > >--Chuck > TI ASC??? Jerome Fine From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Nov 4 10:06:13 2010 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2010 08:06:13 -0700 Subject: DiscFerret: First working hardware, firmware and microcode! In-Reply-To: <4CD258CC.6050907@brouhaha.com> References: <1288029241.9356.127.camel@cheetah> <4CCB28DA.8050509@bitsavers.org> <4CCBE2EB.4020404@philpem.me.uk> <4CCC4732.6080906@bitsavers.org> <4CCC6574.8010103@philpem.me.uk> <4CD1E8BA.3020506@philpem.me.uk> <20101103160558.C79252@shell.lmi.net> <4CD1F677.5090304@bitsavers.org> <4CD258CC.6050907@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4CD2CBE5.8010404@bitsavers.org> On 11/3/10 11:55 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > This makes it a pain to dump all the bits on a track at once, when you don't have a priori knowledge of the track format, > because you can't just assert read gate continuously and get good NRZ data from the drive. > I ran into this about 10 years ago when I was trying to build a circuit to read data from a Century Data Trident drive. As Eric said, you can't just assert read gate continuously. At the time, I didn't have the spec for the Trident interface (very similar to SMD, it turns out) so I didn't know what the read gate timing was supposed to look like. You get very confusing logic analyzer traces if you continuously assert read gate :-( It looks like there is almost enough circuitry (certainly enough FPGA real estate) in the disc ferret to run it backwards as an MFM disk simulator. I/O pins count may be an issue. From cclist at sydex.com Thu Nov 4 10:51:15 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2010 08:51:15 -0700 Subject: Backups in the modern world In-Reply-To: <4CD2C4DE.8070103@compsys.to> References: , , <4CD2C4DE.8070103@compsys.to> Message-ID: <4CD27403.4679.2A8F82@cclist.sydex.com> > I wonder how many home-based computers back up regularly? Again, I > know lots of people that don't citing reasons that it's just too > hard to set up, they have to buy extra hardware etc. Some of the > address books, pictures and home movies on those machines might be > irreplaceable though. How many people, either home or business, understand the necessity of keeping a backup copy off-site? If your house burns down or business is flooded, it doesn't make any difference how often you did backups if your backups never left the premises. Once a month or so, I swap a set of DVDs that contain important information (when you get down to what's REALLY important, it's surprising how little it is) that's kept in our safe deposit box at our bank. --Chuck From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Thu Nov 4 11:35:03 2010 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2010 11:35:03 -0500 Subject: DiscFerret: First working hardware, firmware and microcode! In-Reply-To: <4CD2CBE5.8010404@bitsavers.org> References: <1288029241.9356.127.camel@cheetah> <4CCB28DA.8050509@bitsavers.org> <4CCBE2EB.4020404@philpem.me.uk> <4CCC4732.6080906@bitsavers.org> <4CCC6574.8010103@philpem.me.uk> <4CD1E8BA.3020506@philpem.me.uk> <20101103160558.C79252@shell.lmi.net> <4CD1F677.5090304@bitsavers.org> <4CD258CC.6050907@brouhaha.com> <4CD2CBE5.8010404@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4CD2E0B7.1060804@gmail.com> Al Kossow wrote: > It looks like there is almost enough circuitry (certainly enough FPGA > real estate) in the disc ferret to run it backwards > as an MFM disk simulator. Hey, don't give him a whole new market before he's even dominated the first one! ;-) From cclist at sydex.com Thu Nov 4 11:51:09 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2010 09:51:09 -0700 Subject: CDC STAR was: Happy Birthday VAX 11/780 (influence of) Message-ID: <4CD2820D.31318.6164EC@cclist.sydex.com> On 4 Nov 2010 at 9:39, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > TI ASC??? TI's Advanced Scientific Computer. The only reason I was aware of the ASC (and Burroughs' BSC) was because of some proprosal-writing I did for ECMWF (European Centre for Medium-Range Weather Forecasting) proposal. We didn't get the contract, but part of your "homework" was to become familiar with competitors' products. >From my often-faulty memory, the ASC was roughly based on the IBM S/360 instruction architecture with a rather arcane (at least it seemed so to me) vector box. 32 bit single-precison/64 bit double- precision with the S/360 style (8+24, normalized to 4 bits) floating point representation. I just did a check and there's some stuff on Bitsavers on it. However, I don't see anything on the BSC there. When we talk today about selling thousands and millions of systems, it was a very different world where vast amounts of money and manpower were put into the hope of selling 10 systems worldwide. One aspect of these supercomputers that's often overlooked is the amount of R&D that goes into peripherals to keep these things fed. TI had a special horizontal-spindle disk drive; STAR had some work done on a super-speed drum and a very wide tape-used-as-movable drum called SCROLL. I don't think that CDC's EBAM was ever considered for STAR (maybe early on), though I do recall seeing a rack of EBAM units sitting in the hall at ADL. By then, Jim Thornton had moved on to other things and was trenching around the parking lot at Arden Hills, burying coax for his 50Mbps network experiments. --Chuck From legalize at xmission.com Thu Nov 4 12:28:22 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2010 11:28:22 -0600 Subject: DiscFerret: First working hardware, firmware and microcode! In-Reply-To: <4CD21CFE.2030309@bitsavers.org> References: <1288029241.9356.127.camel@cheetah> <4CCB28DA.8050509@bitsavers.org> <4CCBE2EB.4020404@philpem.me.uk> <4CCC4732.6080906@bitsavers.org> <4CCC6574.8010103@philpem.me.uk> <4CD1E8BA.3020506@philpem.me.uk> <20101103160558.C79252@shell.lmi.net> <4CD21681.8000607@philpem.me.uk> <4CD21A4F.3080503@bitsavers.org> <4CD21CFE.2030309@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: In article <4CD21CFE.2030309 at bitsavers.org>, Al Kossow writes: > National AN-500 has a reasonable description of ESDI > > the actual ESDI spec is on bitsavers > http://bitsavers.org/pdf/cdc/discs/interface_specs/77738076-D2_ESDIspec.pdf I think this is the driver interface used on the Eve workstations (successor to Lilith). -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From dm561 at torfree.net Thu Nov 4 14:01:00 2010 From: dm561 at torfree.net (MikeS) Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2010 14:01:00 -0500 Subject: Information about Tektronix 4107A/4109A graphic terminals References: Message-ID: <08DC429254144630B7490B67B7EB6CCD@vl420mt> Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2010 13:52:40 -0400 From: David Ryskalczyk Subject: Re: Information about Tektronix 4107A/4109A graphic terminals > A little OT but speaking of vintage Tek: I have a bunch of their Service > Scope 'magazines' from the late 60's; can I assume that these exist > elsewhere and I can dispose of them if and when? > > mike > Have you checked BAMA? http://bama.edebris.com/manuals/ I'd offer to scan them (I have an Epson GT-15000 scanner with ADF) but an currently overloaded with DEC documentation to do. --Dave ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Didn't see anything there, but it looks like they're available on CD, so no sweat. Going to read 'em first anyway before I throw 'em out; some still-relevant interesting tips in those old magazines. mike From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Nov 4 13:15:09 2010 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2010 11:15:09 -0700 Subject: CDC STAR was: Happy Birthday VAX 11/780 (influence of) In-Reply-To: <4CD2820D.31318.6164EC@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4CD2820D.31318.6164EC@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4CD2F82D.8030608@bitsavers.org> On 11/4/10 9:51 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > However, I don't see anything on the BSC there. > there are a few things in the archives at CHM. so much to scan, too little time. From dkelvey at hotmail.com Thu Nov 4 13:28:49 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2010 11:28:49 -0700 Subject: Viper 2150S scsi tape drive In-Reply-To: References: , ,,,,, , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , <5030DD06-2122-4819-97AD-FDE255A75F86@typewritten.org>, Message-ID: Hi As those that followed the original thread, I had the capstan rubber turn to goo. I've tried replacing the capstan with a piece of tygon tubing and it is not working. The problem seems to be that it has too much memory. If it sits for just a few minutes, it gets a bump. I'll need to locate some similar sized rubber tubing. My local hardware only carries the tygon but I think I can find something at the auto shops, used for vacuum lines of fuel lines. I'll let you know what I find. In my experiments, I was able to get a partial write/read to work so I'm on the right track. I still need to understand why the 8mm didn't work as expected. Dwight From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Nov 4 13:35:31 2010 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2010 11:35:31 -0700 Subject: DiscFerret: First working hardware, firmware and microcode! In-Reply-To: <4CD2E0B7.1060804@gmail.com> References: <1288029241.9356.127.camel@cheetah> <4CCB28DA.8050509@bitsavers.org> <4CCBE2EB.4020404@philpem.me.uk> <4CCC4732.6080906@bitsavers.org> <4CCC6574.8010103@philpem.me.uk> <4CD1E8BA.3020506@philpem.me.uk> <20101103160558.C79252@shell.lmi.net> <4CD1F677.5090304@bitsavers.org> <4CD258CC.6050907@brouhaha.com> <4CD2CBE5.8010404@bitsavers.org> <4CD2E0B7.1060804@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4CD2FCF3.2050902@bitsavers.org> On 11/4/10 9:35 AM, Jules Richardson wrote: > Hey, don't give him a whole new market before he's even dominated the first one! ;-) > I'm just happy someone has finally built this, after having been talked about for years. I just did another look around the web for USB 2.0 FPGA boards, and there still is very few that use Cyclone FPGAs. The nice thing about Philip's board is it has decent power supplies. It would have been nice to have a USB 2.0 interface. The Microchip part is cheap, though. From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Nov 4 13:37:23 2010 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2010 11:37:23 -0700 Subject: Viper 2150S scsi tape drive In-Reply-To: References: , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , <5030DD06-2122-4819-97AD-FDE255A75F86@typewritten.org>, Message-ID: <4CD2FD63.7050006@bitsavers.org> On 11/4/10 11:28 AM, dwight elvey wrote: > I still need to understand why the 8mm didn't work as expected. > There is a rubber pinch roller in them. Make sure is hasn't cracked At least they don't turn to goo. From d235j.1 at gmail.com Thu Nov 4 13:44:33 2010 From: d235j.1 at gmail.com (David Ryskalczyk) Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2010 14:44:33 -0400 Subject: Viper 2150S scsi tape drive In-Reply-To: <4CD2FD63.7050006@bitsavers.org> References: <5030DD06-2122-4819-97AD-FDE255A75F86@typewritten.org> <4CD2FD63.7050006@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <6009563908044589545@unknownmsgid> I've used Terry's Rubber Rollers ( http://terrysrubberrollers.com/ ) for roller rubber replacement in the past. Very excellent service, though slightly expensive. Also I'm not sure if he has any experience with tape drive rollers. In any case, it's important to know the original diameter of the roller. --Dave From pat at computer-refuge.org Thu Nov 4 14:29:47 2010 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2010 15:29:47 -0400 Subject: Fwd: Ersatz-11 V6.0 PDP-11 emulator Message-ID: <201011041529.47845.pat@computer-refuge.org> Finally, you can run a PDP-11 on OS/2, even if you can't run OS/2 on your PDP-11. ---------- Forwarded Message ---------- Subject: Ersatz-11 V6.0 PDP-11 emulator Date: Wednesday 03 November 2010 From: John Wilson To: Info-PDP11 at dbit.com ... - OS/2 version. "Finally!" I hear you say. OK I know there isn't much overlap between the OS/2 crowd and PDP-11 folks, or between the OS/2 crowd and anyone, really -- but *I* like it better than Windows, so there. YOU don't have to use it! OK OK, just let me breathe. -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org -------------- next part -------------- OK ... Ersatz-11 V6.0 (a PDP-11 emulator for PCs) is finished. The free demo version can be downloaded from www.dbit.com as usual. The changes from V5.3 are mostly network-related: - Basic TCP/IP stack in the DOS and stand-alone versions, to make them match the Linux and Windows versions in supporting Telnet connections as serial lines (IPv4 for now but IPv6 is planned for the future). A DHCP client is included. - TELSINGLE: device to support single-line Telnet servers (TELNET: acts like a modem pool, but TELSINGLE: makes sure a given port number always gets the same PDP-11 line. - TELCLIENT: device that makes E11 initiate the Telnet connection (with retries as needed). - New NIC drivers for DOS and stand-alone versions: AMD PCnet-PCI, DEC Tulip (those two are oldies in real life but are commonly virtualized), RealTek RTL8169 (gigabit), VIA Velocity VT6130 (100 MBPS max for now). - ETHn logical names and SHOW NICS in the DOS and stand-alone versions (the Windows version already had these), so that hopefully all these new device names won't get too confusing. - Q-bus Ethernet emulation upgraded to DELQA (sorry that took so long -- the Unibus one has been DELUA for ages). - Ethernet booting -- both locally initiated (BOOT XE: etc.) from a MOP load/dump server, and remotely requested (NCP TRIGGER NODE xxx). E11's MOP implementation was also fixed so that the PDP-11 can be the MOP load/dump server. This is all in the DEC emulations only -- as far as I know the Interlan Ethernet boards never supported booting or MOP. Other stuff: - OS/2 version. "Finally!" I hear you say. OK I know there isn't much overlap between the OS/2 crowd and PDP-11 folks, or between the OS/2 crowd and anyone, really -- but *I* like it better than Windows, so there. YOU don't have to use it! OK OK, just let me breathe. Anyway this is why I upped the major version #, and I figured this is nice timing since eComStation 2.0 finally came out earlier this year (that's what OS/2's reanimated corpse is called these days). This port has lots of rough edges (mainly the lack of device support -- just keyboard/ screen/mouse), but it works well, and uses the real VT100 font like the Windows version (I know it sounds trivial, but generating the font file was half the work of the whole project!). - OpenGL graphics driver for Windows (and yes, OS/2). So now the Lunar Lander works on more than just DOS. The performance is either awful or awesome, depending on whether you have hardware acceleration (any newish PC with current drivers will). - New native self-installer for Windows. It's just like E11's usual DOS-based installer except that it still works on 64-bit versions of Windows (which drop DOS support). - New memory allocator on Linux that works on kernels that are hacked to disable the brk() call (why do so many distributions do this?). - Lots of bug fixes and minor improvements as usual. I can't *believe* all that work to write the TCP/IP layer led to just one new page in the manual! And a pretty sparse one at that. Anyway have fun, and let the bug reports begin... John Wilson D Bit From bdwheele at indiana.edu Thu Nov 4 15:05:12 2010 From: bdwheele at indiana.edu (Brian Wheeler) Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2010 16:05:12 -0400 Subject: Fwd: Ersatz-11 V6.0 PDP-11 emulator In-Reply-To: <201011041529.47845.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <201011041529.47845.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <1288901112.2423.79.camel@nibbler.dlib.indiana.edu> Well played, sir. On Thu, 2010-11-04 at 15:29 -0400, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > Finally, you can run a PDP-11 on OS/2, even if you can't run OS/2 on > your PDP-11. > ---------- Forwarded Message ---------- > Subject: Ersatz-11 V6.0 PDP-11 emulator > Date: Wednesday 03 November 2010 > From: John Wilson > To: Info-PDP11 at dbit.com > ... > - OS/2 version. "Finally!" I hear you say. OK I know > there isn't much overlap between the OS/2 crowd and > PDP-11 folks, or between the OS/2 crowd and anyone, > really -- but *I* like it better than Windows, so there. > YOU don't have to use it! OK OK, just let me breathe. > From dkelvey at hotmail.com Thu Nov 4 15:22:41 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2010 13:22:41 -0700 Subject: Viper 2150S scsi tape drive In-Reply-To: <4CD2FD63.7050006@bitsavers.org> References: , , , , ,,, , , , ,,, , , ,,, , , ,,, , ,,, ,,, , , <5030DD06-2122-4819-97AD-FDE255A75F86@typewritten.org>, , , , <4CD2FD63.7050006@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: > From: aek at bitsavers.org > > On 11/4/10 11:28 AM, dwight elvey wrote: > > > I still need to understand why the 8mm didn't work as expected. > > > > There is a rubber pinch roller in them. Make sure is hasn't cracked > At least they don't turn to goo. > At least the goo didn't get on the heads. It was funny, it seemed to work for a few seconds, al least it loaded. When I tried to retension, it didn't make it and the capstan was goo. I just got some hose that may work. I'll play with it after home projects tonight. Dwight From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Nov 4 15:47:00 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2010 13:47:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Fragility in the floppy world (was Re: TRS-80 Model II Manuals) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20101103140030.I77777@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 3 Nov 2010, Tony Duell wrote: > I am seriosulyt worried by the fact that a group of programmers who are > capable of writing a compiler didn't realise the value of backups. I > can't beklieve tht nobody had ever lost data before. It is one of the consequences when companies recruit straight out of colleges. Although not necessarily the cause in THIS case, it tends toward a work group who are strong on theory and very weak on real-world experience, who will fail to realize all of the things that could go wrong (such as using scanf() for USER input!, or not making backups ("Oh. The technicians always took care of THAT")) Look at the GREAT ideas, and stupid mistakes, on the Lisa dream team. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From teoz at neo.rr.com Thu Nov 4 15:48:31 2010 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2010 16:48:31 -0400 Subject: CPU scrap Message-ID: <23A678B00752413BBB4ACB90316A22A8@dell8300> While browsing on ebay lately I noticed CPU scrap going for quite a bit of money, for example: http://cgi.ebay.com/1-lb-Lot-high-yield-CPU-gold-scrap-recovery-486-/220690179217 Seems like 486 era chips (ceramic) are getting melted down for gold, and those poor PPros are going to be rare as dodo birds in a decade. Kind of makes me wonder if anything is going to be around from the 90's computer era in a dozen years. How much of the earlier stuff was saved from melting because gold was only worth $350 an ounce in the booming 90's compared to $1390 in the current depression? TZ From teoz at neo.rr.com Thu Nov 4 15:53:39 2010 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2010 16:53:39 -0400 Subject: Fragility in the floppy world (was Re: TRS-80 Model II Manuals) References: <20101103140030.I77777@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4486399C4A2C493CBBFB5EDAA5B56B97@dell8300> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fred Cisin" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, November 04, 2010 4:47 PM Subject: Re: Fragility in the floppy world (was Re: TRS-80 Model II Manuals) > On Wed, 3 Nov 2010, Tony Duell wrote: >> I am seriosulyt worried by the fact that a group of programmers who are >> capable of writing a compiler didn't realise the value of backups. I >> can't beklieve tht nobody had ever lost data before. > > It is one of the consequences when companies recruit straight out of > colleges. Although not necessarily the cause in THIS case, it tends > toward a work group who are strong on theory and very weak on real-world > experience, who will fail to realize all of the things that could go wrong > (such as using scanf() for USER input!, or not making backups ("Oh. The > technicians always took care of THAT")) > > Look at the GREAT ideas, and stupid mistakes, on the Lisa dream team. > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com What stupid mistakes did the Lisa team do, and where they GUI related (something new) or simple programming mistakes? Programmers are like doctors, they seem to have specialties they know everything about but other stuff in their field not so much. Backups should be the IT departments job (who report to management as to what is important to save and what is not) not the programmers. From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Nov 4 15:56:23 2010 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2010 15:56:23 -0500 Subject: CPU scrap In-Reply-To: <23A678B00752413BBB4ACB90316A22A8@dell8300> References: <23A678B00752413BBB4ACB90316A22A8@dell8300> Message-ID: <201011042057.oA4KvXUO098196@billY.EZWIND.NET> At 03:48 PM 11/4/2010, Teo Zenios wrote: >How much of the earlier stuff was saved from melting because gold was only worth $350 an ounce in the booming 90's compared to $1390 in the current depression? Ha! Just the other day I decided I should disassemble the PPros from two old quad PPro Proliant 14U servers. There seemed to be no value to them as parts or intact. Somewhere on the net claimed they have $30-40 in gold in each PPro. When I checked eBay, it seemed to be true. Someone was even selling a new-old-stock CASE of PPros, and the high price must've reflected the gold value. - John From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Nov 4 15:57:51 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2010 16:57:51 -0400 Subject: CPU scrap In-Reply-To: <23A678B00752413BBB4ACB90316A22A8@dell8300> References: <23A678B00752413BBB4ACB90316A22A8@dell8300> Message-ID: > Seems like 486 era chips (ceramic) are getting melted down for gold, This is news? All those S/360s and early PDPs were also recycled. -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Nov 4 16:00:27 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2010 17:00:27 -0400 Subject: CPU scrap In-Reply-To: <201011042057.oA4KvXUO098196@billY.EZWIND.NET> References: <23A678B00752413BBB4ACB90316A22A8@dell8300> <201011042057.oA4KvXUO098196@billY.EZWIND.NET> Message-ID: > Somewhere on the net claimed they have $30-40 > in gold in each PPro. Well, not that much, but yes, Pentium Pros make the scrappers very happy. -- Will From jdr_use at bluewin.ch Thu Nov 4 16:14:44 2010 From: jdr_use at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen) Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2010 22:14:44 +0100 Subject: Early Fairchild Sentry scrapped, early TTL IC's worth preserving ? Message-ID: <4CD32244.2040904@bluewin.ch> The remains ( mostly just the PCB's ) from an early Fairchild Sentry test system were junked today. The PCB's are brimming with early ( 1974 datacodes ) Fairchild TTL ic's. ( (9xxx and 93xx ) Also ECL of course, but I don't do that ! Any worth looking for, in particular w.r.t. to keeping old PDP's running ? Jos Dreesen From cclist at sydex.com Thu Nov 4 16:20:23 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2010 14:20:23 -0700 Subject: CPU scrap In-Reply-To: References: <23A678B00752413BBB4ACB90316A22A8@dell8300>, <201011042057.oA4KvXUO098196@billY.EZWIND.NET>, Message-ID: <4CD2C127.20200.157E21E@cclist.sydex.com> On 4 Nov 2010 at 17:00, William Donzelli wrote: > > Somewhere on the net claimed they have $30-40 > > in gold in each PPro. > > Well, not that much, but yes, Pentium Pros make the scrappers very > happy. Seems that the Cash4Gold mail-in gold scam outfits are missing a golden(!) opportunity. A few will currently accept cellphones. --Chuck From pcw at mesanet.com Thu Nov 4 16:24:22 2010 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2010 14:24:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Early Fairchild Sentry scrapped, early TTL IC's worth preserving ? In-Reply-To: <4CD32244.2040904@bluewin.ch> References: <4CD32244.2040904@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: On Thu, 4 Nov 2010, Jos Dreesen wrote: > Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2010 22:14:44 +0100 > From: Jos Dreesen > Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > ; > Subject: Early Fairchild Sentry scrapped, early TTL IC's worth preserving ? > > > The remains ( mostly just the PCB's ) from an early Fairchild Sentry test > system were junked today. > The PCB's are brimming with early ( 1974 datacodes ) Fairchild TTL ic's. ( > (9xxx and 93xx ) > > Also ECL of course, but I don't do that ! > > Any worth looking for, in particular w.r.t. to keeping old PDP's running ? > > Jos Dreesen > Put them back together to make the Sentrys 24 bit CPU? Probably rarer than most PDPs... Peter Wallace From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Nov 4 16:26:31 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2010 14:26:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Fragility in the floppy world (was Re: TRS-80 Model II Manuals) In-Reply-To: <4486399C4A2C493CBBFB5EDAA5B56B97@dell8300> References: <20101103140030.I77777@shell.lmi.net> <4486399C4A2C493CBBFB5EDAA5B56B97@dell8300> Message-ID: <20101104141821.Y18536@shell.lmi.net> > > Look at the GREAT ideas, and stupid mistakes, on the Lisa dream team. On Thu, 4 Nov 2010, Teo Zenios wrote: > What stupid mistakes did the Lisa team do, and where they GUI related > (something new) or simple programming mistakes? Most of these are arguable, based on LOTS of theoretical knowledge, but a shortage of experience. Such as, The "Twiggy" THUMBPRINT diskette Choosing the BEST microprocessor, based on specs, without knowing that there was no prior software available. (I'm glad that they did, but it was ONE of the causes of the Lisa's market failure) Writing an operating system in Pascal High-res B&W graphics (was Jobs color-blind? That, and a closed system seem to have been his forte) Not having adequate software ready for the machine release Price point! ("The Maserati of the mind" for sale to a BMW market) To their credit, they didn't take too long to redesign it into a machine that could be sold at a more reasonable price (Mac) -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cclist at sydex.com Thu Nov 4 16:35:16 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2010 14:35:16 -0700 Subject: Early Fairchild Sentry scrapped, early TTL IC's worth preserving ? In-Reply-To: <4CD32244.2040904@bluewin.ch> References: <4CD32244.2040904@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: <4CD2C4A4.30691.16583DD@cclist.sydex.com> On 4 Nov 2010 at 22:14, Jos Dreesen wrote: > > The remains ( mostly just the PCB's ) from an early Fairchild Sentry > test system were junked today. The PCB's are brimming with early ( > 1974 datacodes ) Fairchild TTL ic's. ( (9xxx and 93xx ) > > Also ECL of course, but I don't do that ! > > Any worth looking for, in particular w.r.t. to keeping old PDP's > running ? Dunno about that, but do you have any documentation on the CPU itself? I've been looking for some time now... --Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Nov 4 14:54:10 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2010 19:54:10 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Backups in the modern world In-Reply-To: from "Terry Stewart" at Nov 4, 10 10:19:24 am Message-ID: > > Given the high reliability of most hard drives these days, I do wonder if > many people have forgotten that this technology can occasionally fail. At I suspect far too many have :-( [..] > I wonder how many home-based computers back up regularly? Again, I know My friends do, but they're the sort of people who, even if they now use a modern machine, have grown up with what are now classic computers and have learnt the value of backups. > lots of people that don't citing reasons that it's just too hard to set up, My view is that if something takes longer to recreate than to back up, then it should be backed up. So I probably wouldn't specifically back up an address label I'd typed in :-). Or the object files for a piece of software I was writing (rebuilding from the (backed up, of couse) source code is not a major job. But those source files, the source of amjor documentaiton I write, etc is backed up. Several times. > they have to buy extra hardware etc. Some of the address books, pictures > and home movies on those machines might be irreplaceable though. Indeed. > > Although it's a lot rarer than it used to be technology still fails. In my > working life, I've had about three catastophic HD failures. In each case, > the existance on a "day before" backup mean it was an annoyance rather than > a disaster! The latest was only two years ago. > > Anyway, I'm sure I'm preaching to the converted. (-: I suspect you are,. which is why I expressed suprise that a software development group didn;'t keep backups of its work... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Nov 4 15:04:14 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2010 20:04:14 +0000 (GMT) Subject: HP9845 design article in EDN In-Reply-To: <4CD175FA.15969.121CE6E@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Nov 3, 10 02:47:22 pm Message-ID: > > On 3 Nov 2010 at 20:42, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > Interesting... Why specifically for me, though (other than I have an > > HP9845B which AFAIK uses the same I/O backplane PCB). > > I seemed to recall that you specifically have an interest in the old > HP 9800 series. If you don't care for things such as this, I'll make > a note to ignore them. My first word was 'interesting'. I was not being sarcastic, I did find the article interesting. I was sort-of wondering if you thougth I was the only person on classiccmp who likes old HPs (untrue), if you thought I'd miss the articel while everyone else would have seen it (well, I would have missed it, whether others would have see it is another matter), or whether you thought I'd somehow not realise the importance of low-impedance ground conenctions (believe me, I do...). But anyway... I see no problem with posing references to articles relating to classic manchines here. > > > I am also a little suprised by the comment that logic analysers didn't > > really exist at that time (not that a logic analyser would have been a > > lot of help fo this fault). I am wondering how the older HP machines > > were actually debugged. Having repaired several of them, I find a > > logic alauyser to be next-to-essential. Even more so if the design is > > not known to be sound. > > Oscope, in particular storage-tube scopes. I guess they did have sufficient bandwidth... > > The HP 1600A dates from 1976 and was marginally useful. The 1602A I rememer seeing an HP 'scope plug-in that IIRC stored soemthing like 16 samples from 16 channels and displayed them in binary on the 'scope screen. Primitive by today's standards, but I bet it was very useful if you had nothing lese. > dates from 1978. I remember getting one to evaluate from Electro- > Rents and thought it very cool, but didn't use it all that much. We > had a logic analyzer plugin for the Tek 7400 series scope frame that > was good enough--and lots cheaper. I used a Tekky 7D01 logic analyser plug-in at univertisty. It got would the problem of too-slow RAM by storing successinve samples in different RAMs at the fastest sample rates. I think you had 4 channels at the fastest rate, 8 at the next-fastestm, and 16 at all the slower sample rates.. It was actually quite useable... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Nov 4 16:07:26 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2010 21:07:26 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Backups in the modern world In-Reply-To: <20101103145124.U79252@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Nov 3, 10 03:07:50 pm Message-ID: > > I guess you know already but I keep coming across people who > > think that RAID means you'll never need to backup again. Quite > > how they expect to recover from accidentally deleting something > > important beats me. > > Or a repeating situation that eats disks. The classic case of that is a demountable hard disk with headcrash problem. It will damage any disk inserted into it, and those damaged disks will then casue headcrashes on any other drive they're tried im. Some indiots end up damaging every head and disk in the building.. > I had a hell of a time, and only partial success when a client's Apple ][+ > would not boot. So, they tried their backup copies. Then they tried > EVERY disk they could find. Unlike the SA400 (used by TRS80, etc.), the > SA390 with Apple's own logic board could write to a write-protected disk > when the controller malfunctioned. Can it? According to the schematic in the Apple DOS manual (I've just dug it out), the wrtite protect switch will disable the Wr Req/ line by tri-statingB4c (a '125). The output is correcly pulled up to the inactive state by R16 under such conditions. Of course a problem on the analogue board can result in the thing corrupting disks, but that would apply to any drive. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Nov 4 16:19:35 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2010 21:19:35 +0000 (GMT) Subject: DiscFerret: First working hardware, firmware and microcode! In-Reply-To: <20101103160558.C79252@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Nov 3, 10 04:37:21 pm Message-ID: > > On Wed, 3 Nov 2010, Philip Pemberton wrote: > > Ho yus. The current support list includes: > > * Amstrad 3-inch (if I ever figure out why I can write 3us-spaced > > pulses and get nothing but garbage back from the drive) > > There are 3 inch drives that will hook up to a PC. Formatting PC-DOS Yes, most of them :-). More seriously, there are Hitachi 3" drives that have a normal 34 pin edge connecotr (SA400-like pinouts) and powr connector. > "360K" on a disk and trying to read THAT would at least give you a known > content on the disk. In addition, Amdek sold 3" drive sub-systems for > Coco and Apple ][. I am sure I've seen them on a Beeb too... > > > * SA1000, ST412, or ST506-interface Winchester hard drives (with > > adapter board). So that'll be basically all the 20-year-old heavy iron > > that doesn't have a DEC sticker on it :) > > 25 years, maybe. Hmmm. What about SA4000, Micropolis 1200 (to name 2 winchesters I happe to be running here) . > 20 years would have to include "RLL" and ESDI (RLL has same cabling as > ST412, but different encoding and data-rates? , ESDI cabling looks the Eh? RLL is a date encoding scheme, ST412 is a de-facto stadnard for the signals on the drive interface connectors. They are not the same thing at all. Yes, you cna use RLL encoding on an ST412-type of drive. And one many other tyeps of drive. The reason the PC crowd used to talk about MFM nd RLL drives (meaning drive systems that used those encodings on a ST412-type of interface) is that in general the encoding system only matters to the user on a 'raw' interface, and the ST412 was the only common raw interface used on PCs. > same but has signal differences) It's very different... For one thing the data separator is in the drive (meaning the encoding method doesn't matter to the end user). FOr another, head position, etc, is done by sending a command bit-serially to the drive. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Nov 4 16:26:56 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2010 21:26:56 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Fragility in the floppy world (was Re: TRS-80 Model II Manuals) In-Reply-To: <27704f2a960f74aa01e914120352a878@cs.ubc.ca> from "Brent Hilpert" at Nov 3, 10 10:08:59 pm Message-ID: > > On 2010 Nov 3, at 12:30 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > > I am seriosulyt worried by the fact that a group of programmers who are > > capable of writing a compiler didn't realise the value of backups. I > > can't beklieve tht nobody had ever lost data before. > > Horrors! Crucify them. And when you're done, you can turn your serious I didn't say that. And after Chuck's expanation (the data did exist elsewhere, and recreating the complete sources wouldn't be _that_ much work) I am less worried.... > worry to the fellow who perpetrated this gross incompetence: Oh, go ahead... But I beleive that cucifixion has never been used as a suicide method. > > On 2010 Nov 3, at 12:08 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > > I am not sure I should admit this, but I once spent an afternooning > > working trhogu hthe read amplifier of a Commodore 8250LP that was > > giving > > read errors. Only after spending a couple of hours on it (and finding > > no > > fault) did I clean the heads... > > -tony From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Nov 4 17:04:06 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2010 15:04:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: DiscFerret: First working hardware, firmware and microcode! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20101104145732.B20554@shell.lmi.net> > > 20 years would have to include "RLL" and ESDI (RLL has same cabling as > > ST412, but different encoding and data-rates? , ESDI cabling looks the On Thu, 4 Nov 2010, Tony Duell wrote: > Eh? RLL is a date encoding scheme, ST412 is a de-facto stadnard for the > signals on the drive interface connectors. They are not the same thing at > all. Thanks. I got sloppy. This is one situation where I should have said "MFM", or clarified the comparison as "ST412 MFM", since I was trying to say that the RLL drives were cabled the same, but the data transfer rates and encoding may be different. > > ESDI cabling looks the same but has signal differences) > It's very different... For one thing the data separator is in the drive > (meaning the encoding method doesn't matter to the end user). FOr > another, head position, etc, is done by sending a command bit-serially to > the drive. What I was trying to convey (albeit poorly worded), is that the CABLES used for ESDI are the same as the CABLES used for ST412 (from a purchasing viewpoint), but the interface is different. From cclist at sydex.com Thu Nov 4 17:04:45 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2010 15:04:45 -0700 Subject: HP9845 design article in EDN In-Reply-To: References: <4CD175FA.15969.121CE6E@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Nov 3, 10 02:47:22 pm, Message-ID: <4CD2CB8D.31895.180839B@cclist.sydex.com> On 4 Nov 2010 at 20:04, Tony Duell wrote: > I was sort-of wondering if you thougth I was the only person on > classiccmp who likes old HPs (untrue), if you thought I'd miss the > articel while everyone else would have seen it (well, I would have > missed it, whether others would have see it is another matter), or > whether you thought I'd somehow not realise the importance of > low-impedance ground conenctions (believe me, I do...). But anyway... My take was that it was an anecdote by one of the people associated with the HP 9845 project. Had it been just a bunch of technical specifications or sample code, I would have ignored it--and I didn't think you subscribed to EDN. But this was a War Story. I'm more interested in the mind of the developer and and much less in the actual physical hardware itself. After all, any of the old hardware could, given sufficient resources, recreated or simulated. It's the people that's irreplaceable. --Chuck > > I see no problem with posing references to articles relating to > classic manchines here. > > > > > > I am also a little suprised by the comment that logic analysers > > > didn't really exist at that time (not that a logic analyser would > > > have been a lot of help fo this fault). I am wondering how the > > > older HP machines were actually debugged. Having repaired several > > > of them, I find a logic alauyser to be next-to-essential. Even > > > more so if the design is not known to be sound. > > > > Oscope, in particular storage-tube scopes. > > I guess they did have sufficient bandwidth... > > > > The HP 1600A dates from 1976 and was marginally useful. The 1602A > > I rememer seeing an HP 'scope plug-in that IIRC stored soemthing like > 16 samples from 16 channels and displayed them in binary on the 'scope > screen. Primitive by today's standards, but I bet it was very useful > if you had nothing lese. > > > dates from 1978. I remember getting one to evaluate from Electro- > > Rents and thought it very cool, but didn't use it all that much. We > > had a logic analyzer plugin for the Tek 7400 series scope frame that > > was good enough--and lots cheaper. > > I used a Tekky 7D01 logic analyser plug-in at univertisty. It got > would the problem of too-slow RAM by storing successinve samples in > different RAMs at the fastest sample rates. I think you had 4 channels > at the fastest rate, 8 at the next-fastestm, and 16 at all the slower > sample rates.. It was actually quite useable... > > -tony > From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Nov 4 17:17:40 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2010 15:17:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: DiscFerret: First working hardware, firmware and microcode! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20101104151430.A20554@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 4 Nov 2010, Tony Duell wrote: > Eh? RLL is a date encoding scheme, ST412 is a de-facto stadnard for the > signals on the drive interface connectors. They are not the same thing at > all. ST412 is ALSO a drive that the "de-facto standard" is named after. They seem to be getting harder to find. > ST412-type of interface) is that in general the encoding system only > matters to the user on a 'raw' interface, and, I'd say that the DiscFerret certainly meets MY definitions of a "raw" interface. From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Nov 4 12:29:28 2010 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2010 17:29:28 -0000 Subject: Fragility in the floppy world (was Re: TRS-80 Model II Manuals) References: <292601cb7ad1$63713c30$6600a8c0@portajara> <04DB6CF35ED54B03ADA1BB0D4D494554@massey.ac.nz> Message-ID: <000001cb7c6e$2a55bd60$95fdf93e@user8459cef6fa> Floppies aren't so fragile... someone (on this list?) did some tests with floppies (5" ones?) a year or so back - in the freezer, buried in the ground for a while, etc. - and nearly all of them worked again afterwards (the actual media had to be placed in a brand new floppy case though). Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk ----- Original Message ----- From: "Terry Stewart" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, November 02, 2010 9:19 PM Subject: Fragility in the floppy world (was Re: TRS-80 Model II Manuals) > Having spent my whole life considering floppy disks to be extremely fragile > things to be handled with great delicacy I was astonished by the experience > below. > http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/2009-02-21-retrieving-data-using-soap-and-water.htm > > Terry Stewart (tezza) > > > > But I learned that things in the floppie world wasn't so fragile as I have > > learned before. And i cleaned my drives many times using this method, when > > there wasn't alchool around. > > > > I should write a book ;o) > > > > From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Nov 4 17:26:57 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2010 15:26:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Fragility in the floppy world (was Re: TRS-80 Model II Manuals) In-Reply-To: <000001cb7c6e$2a55bd60$95fdf93e@user8459cef6fa> References: <292601cb7ad1$63713c30$6600a8c0@portajara> <04DB6CF35ED54B03ADA1BB0D4D494554@massey.ac.nz> <000001cb7c6e$2a55bd60$95fdf93e@user8459cef6fa> Message-ID: <20101104152556.B20554@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 4 Nov 2010, Andrew Burton wrote: > Floppies aren't so fragile... someone (on this list?) did some tests with > floppies (5" ones?) a year or so back - in the freezer, buried in the ground > for a while, etc. - and nearly all of them worked again afterwards (the > actual media had to be placed in a brand new floppy case though). Floppies used for testing always hold up just fine. It is only when you have excess reliance on one that it will fail. From williams.dan at gmail.com Thu Nov 4 17:33:16 2010 From: williams.dan at gmail.com (Dan Williams) Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2010 22:33:16 +0000 Subject: Moving Home - repeat Message-ID: Hi, I still have : An Octane Sun Blade 2000 Dell Itanium blade (Heavy) 2 x Dual machine blade sparc machines I hate to do this but if they are not claimed by Monday they will have to be thrown out. I have also found a processor card still in it it's box for a Vax 4000/500 if anyone is interested. Dan From cclist at sydex.com Thu Nov 4 17:33:39 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2010 15:33:39 -0700 Subject: DiscFerret: First working hardware, firmware and microcode! In-Reply-To: <20101104145732.B20554@shell.lmi.net> References: , <20101104145732.B20554@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4CD2D253.32256.19AF6B9@cclist.sydex.com> On 4 Nov 2010 at 15:04, Fred Cisin wrote: > Thanks. I got sloppy. This is one situation where I should have said > "MFM", or clarified the comparison as "ST412 MFM", since I was trying > to say that the RLL drives were cabled the same, but the data transfer > rates and encoding may be different. ...and "MFM" as interpreted on an ST412-interface drive can vary wildly between manufacturers (with respect to ID mark conventions, CRC/ECC polynomials, etc.). And then there was "ARLL" that was something like (3,11) (although I don't remember exactly). Used mostly by Perstor controllers. I'd be mildly surprised if some enterprising firm didn't try to record a frame of analog video at 60 fps on an ST412 track. One rev per frame... Also, some ESDI drives used hard sectoring. --Chuck From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Nov 4 17:35:31 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2010 18:35:31 -0400 Subject: Early Fairchild Sentry scrapped, early TTL IC's worth preserving ? In-Reply-To: <4CD32244.2040904@bluewin.ch> References: <4CD32244.2040904@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: > The remains ( mostly just the PCB's ) from an early Fairchild Sentry test > system were junked today. > The PCB's are brimming with early ( 1974 datacodes ) Fairchild TTL ic's. ( > (9xxx and 93xx ) > > Also ECL of course, but I don't do that ! > > Any worth looking for, in particular w.r.t. to keeping old PDP's running ? Very few TTL chips are actually rare, so the boards are probably more important whole than as parts. MECL III parts (MC16xx) are getting a little scarce, however. MECL I and II are getting very scarce, but by 1974 they were obsolete and out of fashion. There is a very small community of test equipment collectors out there that might want these. -- Will From mike at fenz.net Thu Nov 4 17:40:11 2010 From: mike at fenz.net (Mike van Bokhoven) Date: Fri, 05 Nov 2010 11:40:11 +1300 Subject: Fragility in the floppy world (was Re: TRS-80 Model II Manuals) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9e47686fa552c9228e864ece447aef25@vodafone.co.nz> On Thu, 4 Nov 2010 21:26:56 +0000 (GMT), ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: >> worry to the fellow who perpetrated this gross incompetence: > Oh, go ahead... But I beleive that cucifixion has never been used as a > suicide method. No. I've tried it dozens of times; there's just no way you can hammer in the last nail. Mike. From cclist at sydex.com Thu Nov 4 17:44:08 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2010 15:44:08 -0700 Subject: Early Fairchild Sentry scrapped, early TTL IC's worth preserving ? In-Reply-To: References: <4CD32244.2040904@bluewin.ch>, Message-ID: <4CD2D4C8.25220.1A48F06@cclist.sydex.com> On 4 Nov 2010 at 18:35, William Donzelli wrote: > Very few TTL chips are actually rare, so the boards are probably more > important whole than as parts. MECL III parts (MC16xx) are getting a > little scarce, however. MECL I and II are getting very scarce, but by > 1974 they were obsolete and out of fashion. 9400 series Fairchild TTL Macrologic chips are fairly uncommon, but I don't know if this design used them. --Chuck From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Thu Nov 4 18:02:09 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2010 23:02:09 +0000 Subject: DiscFerret: First working hardware, firmware and microcode! In-Reply-To: <4CD2D253.32256.19AF6B9@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <20101104145732.B20554@shell.lmi.net> <4CD2D253.32256.19AF6B9@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4CD33B71.9030701@philpem.me.uk> On 04/11/10 22:33, Chuck Guzis wrote: > I'd be mildly surprised if some enterprising firm didn't try to > record a frame of analog video at 60 fps on an ST412 track. One rev > per frame... That would be a bit difficult when the read/write channel is entirely digital (until it hits the head amp at least). If you did A->D conversion or some form of PWM, it might be possible. -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From williams.dan at gmail.com Thu Nov 4 19:00:35 2010 From: williams.dan at gmail.com (Dan Williams) Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2010 00:00:35 +0000 Subject: Moving Home - repeat In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 4 November 2010 22:33, Dan Williams wrote: > Hi, > > I still have : > > An Octane > Sun Blade 2000 > Dell Itanium blade (Heavy) > 2 x Dual machine blade sparc machines > > I hate to do this but if they are not claimed by Monday they will have > to be thrown out. > > > I have also found a processor card still in it it's box for a Vax > 4000/500 if anyone is interested. > > > Dan > Should of said it's in London, UK Dan From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Thu Nov 4 20:01:06 2010 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2010 17:01:06 -0800 Subject: Fragility in the floppy world (was Re: TRS-80 Model II Manuals) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6b6c31465e7a799c5b4e740f2ec78190@cs.ubc.ca> On 2010 Nov 4, at 1:26 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> On 2010 Nov 3, at 12:30 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >>> I am seriosulyt worried by the fact that a group of programmers who >>> are >>> capable of writing a compiler didn't realise the value of backups. I >>> can't beklieve tht nobody had ever lost data before. >> >> Horrors! Crucify them. And when you're done, you can turn your serious > > I didn't say that. No, you merely implied it. As usual, a little pointed satire is lost on Tony. >> worry to the fellow who perpetrated this gross incompetence: > Oh, go ahead... But I beleive that cucifixion has never been used as a > suicide method. Chuck too, provided his story of his own volition. From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Nov 4 19:24:26 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2010 20:24:26 -0400 Subject: Fragility in the floppy world (was Re: TRS-80 Model II Manuals) In-Reply-To: <9e47686fa552c9228e864ece447aef25@vodafone.co.nz> References: <9e47686fa552c9228e864ece447aef25@vodafone.co.nz> Message-ID: > No. I've tried it dozens of times; there's just no way you can hammer in > the last nail. > > Mike. Mike did not say that ...Neil did. -- Will From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Thu Nov 4 19:54:21 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Fri, 05 Nov 2010 00:54:21 +0000 Subject: Amstrad 3in disc drive troubleshooting Message-ID: <4CD355BD.1070301@philpem.me.uk> OK, this is seriously weird. I have two Amstrad 3-inch disc drives: an EME-156, and an EME-231. Both drives will spin up, select and generally "work". For varying values of "work". On both, the "activity" (selected, whatever) LED is stuck on at half-brightness, but switches to full brightness when the drive is selected. For reference: both drives are showing the exact same symptoms. I can select the drive, spin the motor, and seek around the disc. Writing seems to work (more or less) -- when WR GATE goes low, the coils of the head are driven to ~10V with smaller positive and negative pulses (sort of like an exponential curve, synchronised with the falling edge of WRDATA). When WR GATE goes high again, the head voltage falls back to about 2V. When I try and read anything, the head shows no response whatsoever. No pulses on either side of the head at any amplitude (measured with a 1:10 probe on a Tek TDS2024B). Similarly, RD DATA shows no pulses either, except for a brief glitch (2.8us or so) when the drive is selected. The drive controller ASIC also gets rather hot.. like, too hot to touch. I've confirmed that the power is correct -- 12V and 5V have been applied to the correct pins. I'm using "new old stock" Amsoft discs which I bought from an ebay seller. No idea if they're good or bad, but they arrived in shrink-wrapped side-opening plastic boxes and were apparently "Made in Japan." My current suspects are: - Discs. The discs aren't actually magnetically coated in any way, or the coating has failed in some way. Catch is, I don't have a known-good disc to test with. - Heads. Dirty, out of alignment or otherwise completely pooched. Can anyone suggest some things I could check, or are these drives likely to be toast? Thanks, -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Thu Nov 4 19:56:07 2010 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2010 17:56:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Moving Home - repeat In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 5 Nov 2010, Dan Williams wrote: > On 4 November 2010 22:33, Dan Williams wrote: >> Hi, >> >> I still have : >> >> An Octane >> Sun Blade 2000 >> Dell Itanium blade (Heavy) >> 2 x Dual machine blade sparc machines >> >> I hate to do this but if they are not claimed by Monday they will have >> to be thrown out. >> >> >> I have also found a processor card still in it it's box for a Vax >> 4000/500 if anyone is interested. > > Should of said it's in London, UK Ugh... I would have gone for that Sun Blade if it was in the US. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From mike at fenz.net Thu Nov 4 20:17:27 2010 From: mike at fenz.net (Mike van Bokhoven) Date: Fri, 05 Nov 2010 14:17:27 +1300 Subject: (OT) Stupid non-quotes, was Re: Fragility in the floppy world In-Reply-To: References: <9e47686fa552c9228e864ece447aef25@vodafone.co.nz> Message-ID: On Thu, 4 Nov 2010 20:24:26 -0400, William Donzelli wrote: >> No. I've tried it dozens of times; there's just no way you can hammer in >> the last nail. >> Mike. > Mike did not say that ...Neil did. Heh, it's always so bloody difficult to tell whether someone's joking, in text. Yep, Neil said it... but I'm Mike, so I sign emails off that way. In case anyone's wondering what we're talking about, see post 16 in this thread: http://www.fencing.net/forums/thread10395.html Mike. From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Nov 4 21:48:13 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2010 22:48:13 -0400 Subject: Early Fairchild Sentry scrapped, early TTL IC's worth preserving ? In-Reply-To: <4CD32244.2040904@bluewin.ch> References: <4CD32244.2040904@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: <4CD3706D.6000004@neurotica.com> On 11/4/10 5:14 PM, Jos Dreesen wrote: > The remains ( mostly just the PCB's ) from an early Fairchild Sentry > test system were junked today. :-( > The PCB's are brimming with early ( 1974 datacodes ) Fairchild TTL ic's. > ( (9xxx and 93xx ) > > Also ECL of course, but I don't do that ! > > Any worth looking for, in particular w.r.t. to keeping old PDP's running ? Any Signetics 8000-series stuff, like 8263s or 8267s? =) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From brianlanning at gmail.com Thu Nov 4 22:03:58 2010 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2010 22:03:58 -0500 Subject: scsi? port question Message-ID: I picked up one of these cases not too long ago: http://cgi.ebay.com/Vintage-Magna-External-Drive-Case-and-Power-Supply-/150515308468?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item230b6957b4 Could someone give me the scoop on the ports on the back? One looks like a typical db-25 scsi. What's the other one, the one with three rows of pins? Is this another type of scsi port? brian From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Nov 4 22:12:08 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2010 23:12:08 -0400 Subject: scsi? port question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CD37608.3070407@neurotica.com> On 11/4/10 11:03 PM, Brian Lanning wrote: > I picked up one of these cases not too long ago: > > http://cgi.ebay.com/Vintage-Magna-External-Drive-Case-and-Power-Supply-/150515308468?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item230b6957b4 > > Could someone give me the scoop on the ports on the back? One looks > like a typical db-25 scsi. What's the other one, the one with three > rows of pins? Is this another type of scsi port? Given the styling of that box, matching IBM PC and XT machines, I'd really be surprised if it were SCSI. I'd guess it were some sort of proprietary-interfaced expansion box. That said, early (but almost a decade later than early IBM PCs) Sun machines used those DD-50 connectors for both SCSI and IPI interfaces. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From brianlanning at gmail.com Thu Nov 4 22:20:53 2010 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2010 22:20:53 -0500 Subject: scsi? port question In-Reply-To: <4CD37608.3070407@neurotica.com> References: <4CD37608.3070407@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Nov 4, 2010 at 10:12 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > ?Given the styling of that box, matching IBM PC and XT machines, I'd really > be surprised if it were SCSI. ?I'd guess it were some sort of > proprietary-interfaced expansion box. > > ?That said, early (but almost a decade later than early IBM PCs) Sun > machines used those DD-50 connectors for both SCSI and IPI interfaces. > > ? ? ? ? ? ? -Dave I thought I saw a 50-pin ribbon cable in there. I might be wrong though. I could always yank the cable and connectors and replace it with some scsi cabling. I've also considered putting a mini itx motherboard in there. brian From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Nov 4 22:26:20 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2010 23:26:20 -0400 Subject: scsi? port question In-Reply-To: References: <4CD37608.3070407@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4CD3795C.80105@neurotica.com> On 11/4/10 11:20 PM, Brian Lanning wrote: >> Given the styling of that box, matching IBM PC and XT machines, I'd really >> be surprised if it were SCSI. I'd guess it were some sort of >> proprietary-interfaced expansion box. >> >> That said, early (but almost a decade later than early IBM PCs) Sun >> machines used those DD-50 connectors for both SCSI and IPI interfaces. > > I thought I saw a 50-pin ribbon cable in there. Maybe, but its styling suggests that it predates widespread use of SCSI, and SCSI didn't make big inroads into the PC world anywhere near that era. > I might be wrong > though. I could always yank the cable and connectors and replace it > with some scsi cabling. I've also considered putting a mini itx > motherboard in there. That's kinda sick. I like it. :) Wasn't someone here looking for a PC- or XT-styled expansion chassis like this recently? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Nov 4 22:33:47 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2010 23:33:47 -0400 Subject: scsi? port question In-Reply-To: <4CD37608.3070407@neurotica.com> References: <4CD37608.3070407@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On 11/4/10, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 11/4/10 11:03 PM, Brian Lanning wrote: >> I picked up one of these cases not too long ago: >> >> http://cgi.ebay.com/Vintage-Magna-External-Drive-Case-and-Power-Supply-/150515308468?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item230b6957b4 >> >> Could someone give me the scoop on the ports on the back? One looks >> like a typical db-25 scsi. What's the other one, the one with three >> rows of pins? Is this another type of scsi port? As was mentioned, that's one DB25 and one DD50. Without seeing the cables inside, one thing I thought of was it _could_ be an external ESDI or SMD case. DD50s were used for several things including Sun SCSI before SCSI-2 connectors. -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Nov 4 22:36:05 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2010 23:36:05 -0400 Subject: scsi? port question In-Reply-To: References: <4CD37608.3070407@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On 11/4/10, Brian Lanning wrote: > I thought I saw a 50-pin ribbon cable in there. I might be wrong > though. Count carefully - if it's 60, not 50, and the smaller connector is 26 (I think), it could be SMD. > I could always yank the cable and connectors and replace it > with some scsi cabling. I did that with one of those cases about 20 years ago when they were really cheap. I dropped in an early SCSI CD-ROM and a SyQuest 44MB drive in it and used them on an Amiga 3000. Still populated that way, though I haven't powered it on in a number of years. -ethan From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Nov 4 22:42:57 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2010 23:42:57 -0400 Subject: scsi? port question In-Reply-To: References: <4CD37608.3070407@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4CD37D41.6040504@neurotica.com> On 11/4/10 11:36 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> I thought I saw a 50-pin ribbon cable in there. I might be wrong >> though. > > Count carefully - if it's 60, not 50, and the smaller connector is 26 > (I think), it could be SMD. I thought all of the 5.25" SMD drives came out more than a decade after that style of chassis would've been common. I'd really be surprised if it were SMD, even if the 60/26-pin connectors would be a huge coincidence. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Nov 4 22:58:57 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2010 23:58:57 -0400 Subject: scsi? port question In-Reply-To: <4CD37D41.6040504@neurotica.com> References: <4CD37608.3070407@neurotica.com> <4CD37D41.6040504@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On 11/4/10, Dave McGuire wrote: > I thought all of the 5.25" SMD drives came out more than a decade > after that style of chassis would've been common. Really? ISTR that chassis style was in vogue from about 1981-1986 or so. I'm not asserting that 5.25" SMD wasn't later, but I'm wondering about how much later. > I'd really be > surprised if it were SMD, even if the 60/26-pin connectors would be a > huge coincidence. If it _is_ 60/26, I'd be surprised if it turned out to be something other than SMD. I think it's not enough pins for an ISA extension, but that's another possibility. I'm mostly speculating about what fits the external appearance based on all sorts of products that were available at one point. It really would help to know more about the internal cabling to make a more targeted guess. -ethan From leaknoil at gmail.com Thu Nov 4 23:40:49 2010 From: leaknoil at gmail.com (leaknoil) Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2010 21:40:49 -0700 Subject: Since we are talking about 1/4" tape drives In-Reply-To: References: <4CD37608.3070407@neurotica.com> <4CD37D41.6040504@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4CD38AD1.3070205@gmail.com> There are a lot of unknowns so, this may be a hard nut to crack but, I'm having problems. I am trying to revive my old AT&T 3B2/600G and I need to re-install the os. It has a 120MB tape drive and I have an image of the install tape. Thing is the tape drive's capstan turned to liquid long ago. Typical Wangtek. I have five here with melted rubber all over. The drive is a AT&T badged 5125ES scsi drive. From what I read they will read 60mb format tapes but, not write them. They read/write QIC-120 and nothing else. The drive actually id's as a wangtek ks23465 which is a at&t part number and probably messes up the drivers from knowing what it is. Anyway, I took the capstan out of a wangtek 5250es drive I bought off ebay and put it in the 3b2 drive. Then I put it on both a solaris and linux box. The problem I am having is, while it works fine, it uses way more tape than normal. A 4mb file uses about a half of a dc600a cart and about the same for a 6150. I can't fit the boot tape on a tape. Not even close. Maybe four files and I have 37. I've tried using various tools to set the density but, the drive just gives an i/o error if you try. While I do have a few 6150 tapes I don't have an actual qic-120 tape. My understanding is a qic-150 tape should be fine for qic-120. So, could the capstan rubber be different enough to cause it to eat up more tape or is it a driver/firmware issue ? The rubber looks about the same as every wangtek one I've ever seen but, it's softer than I remember them being. I have tried setting up solaris and linux with the device name but, I think there are special characters in the id string and I can't get either os's drivers to id it on boot. The commands like probe-scsi give a lot of strange spaces after and before parts of the device name as reported by the drive. From dkelvey at hotmail.com Fri Nov 5 00:02:05 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2010 22:02:05 -0700 Subject: CPU scrap In-Reply-To: <4CD2C127.20200.157E21E@cclist.sydex.com> References: <23A678B00752413BBB4ACB90316A22A8@dell8300>, , <201011042057.oA4KvXUO098196@billY.EZWIND.NET>, , , <4CD2C127.20200.157E21E@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > From: cclist at sydex.com Subject: Re: CPU scrap > > On 4 Nov 2010 at 17:00, William Donzelli wrote: > > > > Somewhere on the net claimed they have $30-40 > > > in gold in each PPro. > > > > Well, not that much, but yes, Pentium Pros make the scrappers very > > happy. > > Seems that the Cash4Gold mail-in gold scam outfits are missing a > golden(!) opportunity. A few will currently accept cellphones. > > --Chuck > I might believe $3-$4 but Intel would have been out of business if they put even $10 worth of gold into a PPro. Dwight From leaknoil at gmail.com Fri Nov 5 00:34:21 2010 From: leaknoil at gmail.com (leaknoil) Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2010 22:34:21 -0700 Subject: CPU scrap In-Reply-To: References: <23A678B00752413BBB4ACB90316A22A8@dell8300>, , <201011042057.oA4KvXUO098196@billY.EZWIND.NET>, , , <4CD2C127.20200.157E21E@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4CD3975D.3090604@gmail.com> I am not saying there isn't gold value in these but.... every person I've run into doing the cpu for gold content thing usually knew very little about computers and even less about how expensive/dangerous it is to extract the gold. They just lived among piles and pile of old cpus and bits of circuit boards always waiting to cash in one day. That and did drugs. Not all but, many. I've run into a few. I seem to remember a recent new story about some people that killed themselves trying to extract the gold from computer parts. It a internet get rich quick scheme. There are lots of sites about it. I just randomly googled and first one I hit makes it could like a nightmare on step above making drugs in your basement. Which is obviously better money. http://www.finishing.com/188/89p3.shtml .You can get a sense of the guys hanging out on ebay looking for bags of cpu just reading a few posts there. On 11/4/2010 10:02 PM, dwight elvey wrote: > > I might believe $3-$4 but Intel would have been out of business if > they put even $10 worth of gold into a PPro. > Dwight > From teoz at neo.rr.com Fri Nov 5 00:56:38 2010 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2010 01:56:38 -0400 Subject: CPU scrap References: <23A678B00752413BBB4ACB90316A22A8@dell8300>, , <201011042057.oA4KvXUO098196@billY.EZWIND.NET>, , , <4CD2C127.20200.157E21E@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4F70040BF99D4AA4B7F6172DBEB991BA@dell8300> >From the wiki: "Some models of Pentium Pro chips contain as much as 1.1 grams of Gold. Because gold's price has increased more than 500% since 1995, the price of the gold in one of these chips has gone from $8.25 to close to $45 per chip." Which models I don't know. Original price per chip must have been over $1000, so $10 in gold would not have bankrupted Intel. ----- Original Message ----- From: "dwight elvey" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Friday, November 05, 2010 1:02 AM Subject: RE: CPU scrap > From: cclist at sydex.com Subject: Re: CPU scrap > > On 4 Nov 2010 at 17:00, William Donzelli wrote: > > > > Somewhere on the net claimed they have $30-40 > > > in gold in each PPro. > > > > Well, not that much, but yes, Pentium Pros make the scrappers very > > happy. > > Seems that the Cash4Gold mail-in gold scam outfits are missing a > golden(!) opportunity. A few will currently accept cellphones. > > --Chuck > I might believe $3-$4 but Intel would have been out of business if they put even $10 worth of gold into a PPro. Dwight = From leaknoil at gmail.com Fri Nov 5 01:04:45 2010 From: leaknoil at gmail.com (leaknoil) Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2010 23:04:45 -0700 Subject: CPU scrap In-Reply-To: <4F70040BF99D4AA4B7F6172DBEB991BA@dell8300> References: <23A678B00752413BBB4ACB90316A22A8@dell8300>, , <201011042057.oA4KvXUO098196@billY.EZWIND.NET>, , , <4CD2C127.20200.157E21E@cclist.sydex.com> <4F70040BF99D4AA4B7F6172DBEB991BA@dell8300> Message-ID: <4CD39E7D.7010707@gmail.com> On 11/4/2010 10:56 PM, Teo Zenios wrote: >> From the wiki: > > "Some models of Pentium Pro chips contain as much as 1.1 grams of > Gold. Because gold's price has increased more than 500% since 1995, > the price of the gold in one of these chips has gone from $8.25 to > close to $45 per chip." > > Which models I don't know. Original price per chip must have been over > $1000, so $10 in gold would not have bankrupted Intel. The problem is the cost to extract it. From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Nov 5 01:10:05 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2010 02:10:05 -0400 Subject: CPU scrap In-Reply-To: <4F70040BF99D4AA4B7F6172DBEB991BA@dell8300> References: <23A678B00752413BBB4ACB90316A22A8@dell8300> <201011042057.oA4KvXUO098196@billY.EZWIND.NET> <4CD2C127.20200.157E21E@cclist.sydex.com> <4F70040BF99D4AA4B7F6172DBEB991BA@dell8300> Message-ID: > "Some models of Pentium Pro chips contain as much as 1.1 grams of Gold. > Because gold's price has increased more than 500% since 1995, the price of > the gold in one of these chips has gone from $8.25 to close to $45 per > chip." Doesn't the "as much as" phrase in a wiki page set off a red flag for you? It should. A few PPro chips might have $45 of gold in them, but most have somewhere around $15. -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Nov 5 01:15:45 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2010 02:15:45 -0400 Subject: CPU scrap In-Reply-To: <4CD3975D.3090604@gmail.com> References: <23A678B00752413BBB4ACB90316A22A8@dell8300> <201011042057.oA4KvXUO098196@billY.EZWIND.NET> <4CD2C127.20200.157E21E@cclist.sydex.com> <4CD3975D.3090604@gmail.com> Message-ID: > I am not saying there isn't gold value in these but.... every person I've > run into doing the cpu for gold content thing usually knew very little about > computers and even less about how expensive/dangerous it is to extract the > gold. They just lived among piles and pile of old cpus and bits of circuit > boards always waiting to cash in one day. ?That and did drugs. Not all but, > many. I've run into a few. I do not think you really know what you are talking about. A relative few guys doing e-recycling use the "secret sauce" to extract the gold, but *by*far* most use commercial refineries. They send out the boards/pins/connectors/whatever, and typically they get a large percentage back as cash or the gold itself. They also get cash for the other metals (mostly copper) - something they do not get if they do their own refining. The value of the copper content of circuit boards will often exceed the value of the gold. And yes, quite a few scrappers actually know what they are dealing with when it comes to computers and technology. A fair number are actually ex-engineers. -- Will From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Nov 5 01:15:56 2010 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Fri, 05 Nov 2010 00:15:56 -0600 Subject: CPU scrap In-Reply-To: References: <23A678B00752413BBB4ACB90316A22A8@dell8300> <201011042057.oA4KvXUO098196@billY.EZWIND.NET> <4CD2C127.20200.157E21E@cclist.sydex.com> <4F70040BF99D4AA4B7F6172DBEB991BA@dell8300> Message-ID: <4CD3A11C.4000603@jetnet.ab.ca> On 05/11/2010 12:10 AM, William Donzelli wrote: >> "Some models of Pentium Pro chips contain as much as 1.1 grams of Gold. >> Because gold's price has increased more than 500% since 1995, the price of >> the gold in one of these chips has gone from $8.25 to close to $45 per >> chip." > A few PPro chips might have $45 of gold in them, but most have > somewhere around $15. I'd worry more about your gold Budda. :) > -- > Will > From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Nov 5 01:17:58 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2010 02:17:58 -0400 Subject: CPU scrap In-Reply-To: <4CD39E7D.7010707@gmail.com> References: <23A678B00752413BBB4ACB90316A22A8@dell8300> <201011042057.oA4KvXUO098196@billY.EZWIND.NET> <4CD2C127.20200.157E21E@cclist.sydex.com> <4F70040BF99D4AA4B7F6172DBEB991BA@dell8300> <4CD39E7D.7010707@gmail.com> Message-ID: > The problem is the cost to extract it. Which is not much, when done in decent quantities. Most guys deal in Gaylord sized increments, not a pile of boards here and there. -- Will From pkamphues at gmail.com Wed Nov 3 11:31:23 2010 From: pkamphues at gmail.com (Pete Kamphues) Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2010 12:31:23 -0400 Subject: Radio Shack Science Fair manuals Message-ID: <000401cb7b74$91298030$0305a8c0@ascend8defdb65> Wondering if you still have a manual for the science fair 200 in one kit. I have an old kit in great shape but no manual and I'd like to have it for the kids. Thanks Pete. Pkamphues at gmail.com From robin at hx-20.com Wed Nov 3 11:59:45 2010 From: robin at hx-20.com (Robin England) Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2010 16:59:45 -0000 Subject: 10 Hole Disk Punch Message-ID: <3DB79D59F3B044C7A275C7F3F0622D39@AlienwareM15x> > So they're 10 sector 5.25" floppies. Vector Graphic maybe? >To the best of my recollection, the VGs were 16RH, not 10. To which end >I asked Dwight if a 16 hole model might be feasible. >De The two Heathkit / Zenith HZ89s that I have both have hard-sectored 5.25? floppy drives. I successfully made some new disks up when I got them (circa 1991) by making a paper template from an original hard-sectored disk and punched holes in soft-sectored disks using a pencil. It worked but the disks are noisy due to ?burrs? around the holes catching on the sleeve inside the envelope. Robin From bqt at softjar.se Wed Nov 3 14:36:56 2010 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Wed, 03 Nov 2010 20:36:56 +0100 Subject: PDP-11 firsts? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CD1B9D8.5030309@softjar.se> On 2010-11-01 00:02, ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: >> > On 2010-10-30 01:12,ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: >> > >>> > > >>>>> > >> > I have not seen anyone comment any of the other things I listed as >>>>> > >> > possible firsts on the PDP-11. >>>>> > >> > Can anyone come up with an earlier machine that used condition codes? >>>>> > >> > How about general registers with addressing modes, which is totally >>>>> > >> > orthogonal? How about having the PC as a general register? >>> > > The Philips P800 series has the PC as a general register (register 0). >> > >> > Could you use it like any other register? > There were some restrictions. I don't think you could shift it (at least > ont on the P850). But for many instructions it was just another register. Cool. So you could add to it, index by it, and so on? >>> > > There are 16 registers, some instructions can only use the first 8, others >>> > > can use all 16. Addressing modes (simpler than the PDP11, I admit) are >>> > > pretty much orthogonal. >> > >> > Sounds like the registers were atleast not as orthogonally used as on a >> > PDP-11. If an instruction could take a register, it could take any >> > register. And all addressing modes are valid (well, almost) anywhere. > I think all P800 instructions that had addressing modes could use any > addressing mode. Any instruction with 4-bit register fields could use any > register. Any instruction with a 3 bit register field could use any of > the first 8 registers. And IIRC, like the PDP11, the addressing modes > commonly known as 'immediate' and 'absolute' were a couple of the other > addressing modes with the register specified as 0 (=PC, of course). > > I guess the P800 wasn't totally ortogonal but it was a lot more > orthogonal than many other machines. Indeed sounds nice. When did the machine appear? >>> > > What do you mean by condition codes here? >> > >> > The four low bits of PSW. > Err... I don;t think that's helpful. Quite a lot of machines with a > status register have a 'low 4 bits' of it:-). But that doens't make them > condition codes. Similarly uf you hapopen to implement the same > functionality using other bits of a status registers, doesn't that make > them condition codes? > > What I was asking was what fucntionality do you require of these > condtiion codes other than there being conditional jumps on carry, zero, etc? Sorry. I was just being lazy, and trying to explain condition codes by referring to what they are on the PDP-11. To try and be more specific then: condition codes are bits that are set/reset as a result of operations performed by the processed, and upon which you can the make conditional branches/jumps on. As opposed to, for example, a PDP-10, where you instead encoded the condition within the instruction, along with a register to test upon. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From bqt at softjar.se Wed Nov 3 14:47:04 2010 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Wed, 03 Nov 2010 20:47:04 +0100 Subject: Virtual memory In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CD1BC38.6060306@softjar.se> On 2010-11-01 00:02, "Chuck Guzis" wrote: > On 31 Oct 2010 at 11:37, Johnny Billquist wrote: > >> > The important question here - are the programs aware of the RA >> > register, and can they change it? And can they address the full range >> > of memory addresses as perceived by the program. > No they aren't. Their memory exists from 0 to whatever the field > length is, physically and continously. If they need more, a system > request can expand their field length provided the system has > sufficient physical memory to accommodate them. There is no way > (absent perhaps a system request to get that information) for a > program to know its real physical base address. Ok. So, a program would think it addressed a memory space, which was it's own, and the addresses it used would in no way related to the actual physical memory it ended up referring to. I'd call that virtual memory. Although, having to map the whole virtual memory as one chunk to physical memory makes it a little more work, end less flexible than having pages. And it pretty much prevents you from ever being able to share memory in a reasonable way between processes. >> > Another word for swapping in and out? > But much older and specific to the architecture and not done in > pieces as a tranditional VM swap file would be. Hmm. I don't think swapping is considered to be done in pieces today either, although swapping is also a term that seems to be defined differently depending on which OS we're talking about. Unix systems can both page and swap. Swapping is throwing everything out to disk, including some kernel structures for the process. Don't happen that often nowadays... Paging is normally enough. > I'll take the coward's way out and use the dictionary here: > > "1. Existing or resulting in essence or effect though not in actual > fact, form, or name" > > So my definiton of "fooling the user into thinking he has more > physical memory than he actually has" is certainly valid. > > And the VAX sense is also true, but only if one takes along with it > the ability to over-commit memory space such that the amount of > addressable memory (i.e. the sum of all users' memory) is greater > than the physical memory present. > > A single task running on a VAX with at least as much physical memory > as addressing space would not be using the virtual memory facility-- > every bit is reflected in the presence of real memory. > > But then, we fall on marshy ground again, when we consider the old > "roll/swap" multiuser situation. I can run 8 jobs, each requiring > 65K of memory on a system with 128K physical memory, simply by > selecting when I give each a time slice and swapping/rolling them out > as needed. So is that virtual? Indeed. I remember (not so fondly) running on a PDP-11/70 back in the 80s. The machine was running RSTS/E V7, and the system allows max 63 jobs. We were at times actually 63 users running on that machine, and it only have 1.5M of memory. It was swapping a lot, and things sometimes went slow, but it worked perfectly fine. Seeing a machine today with over 60 users is not common, and I'm not sure it would feel a single bit more pleasant than the RSTS/E system I used back then... And I'd still claim that the memory used by each process was definitely virtual. And I'm willing to continue to fight for that view. Besides, for the PDP-11, that is what DEC called it. :-) Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From bqt at softjar.se Wed Nov 3 15:04:36 2010 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Wed, 03 Nov 2010 21:04:36 +0100 Subject: 68K In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CD1C054.8030008@softjar.se> On 2010-11-01 18:00, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Sat, Oct 30, 2010 at 6:51 AM, Johnny Billquist wrote: >> > On 2010-10-30 01:12, Ethan Dicks wrote: >>> >> I know it works well enough in early Sun workstations and the AT&T >>> >> Unix PC (3B1/7300), but I have no knowledge of any required >>> >> workarounds due to possible bugs. >> > >> > Yes, the 68010 worked fine with demand paging. The 68000 did not. >> > Neither of them implemented instructions restarts, though. As noted below, >> > the 68010 did instuction suspension instead. > Yes. I was previously unaware of the distinction but did know what > the 68000 could not do that the 68010 could. We were at the same level, then. :-) >> > The "interesting" workarounds that I've hear of are actually 68000-related... >> > Using their own designed MMU (there were none from Motorola for the 68000), > What about the 68451? (we had one in a prototype product design in > 1984/1985 that never made it to market) > > It wasn't terribly popular, but it did exist. Tried to look it up on the net, and I'm unsure if it really was usable on the 68K. It would appear that it did hit the market, and if you had a 68010 in combination with this chip, you could implement virtual memory, since you could recover from page faults. However, there were also third party MMUs competing with the Motorola chip, which might explain why it was rather uncommon. Performance wise, the 68010 in combination with the 68451 appear to not have been that impressive. >> > and a second CPU, Apollo made the primary CPU stall on a page fault, and the >> > secondady CPU wake up. The secondary CPU could then do a page in... > That sounds like the design of the Perkin-Elmer workstation I have - > two 68000s, one for running the OS, one for paging. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that SUN did something similar as well... Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From bqt at softjar.se Wed Nov 3 15:17:10 2010 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Wed, 03 Nov 2010 21:17:10 +0100 Subject: Bill's PDP-11/34A In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CD1C346.3040603@softjar.se> On 2010-11-03 18:00, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 11/3/10, B Degnan wrote: >> > Here are pictures from the system as I first got it, if it helps with >> > the card order/comparison purposes. Note that some cards are not >> > installed in the backplane. >> > http://vintagecomputer.net/digital/pdp11-34a/before/ > Do you have packs for your RL01 drives? Hopefully the packs were > removed and the heads locked for transport. Good point. There is a transport lock for RL drivers, that should be in place when transported, and which should be remembered to be moved out of the way when used. > An 11/34 w/RL01 is a nice little RT-11 system, though it'd be a bit > cramped for 2.9BSD (both in terms of disk and RAM). You could > probably also run an older version of RSX-11/M on it too. I think we > ran something around RSX-11/M 4.0 or 4.1 on ours in the mid-1980s. You can always get more disk. Easiest would just be an upgrade to RL02 drives... Also, current RSX-11M would also be happy on that machine, assuming he has the full 256K of memory. Once more possibly disk space being an issue, though. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From jws at jwsss.com Wed Nov 3 17:25:01 2010 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Wed, 03 Nov 2010 15:25:01 -0700 Subject: Backups in the modern world In-Reply-To: <8A5F9ADC8CE54CDEBC8C94E8B7207D89@ANTONIOPC> References: <8A5F9ADC8CE54CDEBC8C94E8B7207D89@ANTONIOPC> Message-ID: <4CD1E13D.5050106@jwsss.com> On 11/3/2010 2:46 PM, arcarlini at iee.org wrote: > Terry Stewart [terry at webweavers.co.nz] wrote: > >> Given the high reliability of most hard drives these days, I >> do wonder if >> many people have forgotten that this technology can >> occasionally fail. > I guess you know already but I keep coming across people who > think that RAID means you'll never need to backup again. Quite > how they expect to recover from accidentally deleting something > important beats me. > This isn't really backup, but is versioning. I know there are some products which allow one to "go back" on windows, but in reality it is unpractical to back up enough to cover the problem of unintended deletion except by such a product, or by using versioning to cover your mistakes. I run a few svn repositories and save them on my main system. > In passing, I don't think that drives are *that* reliable these > days. Once you're past infant mortality then I'd expect to get > a good 5 years out of a drive, but that passes sooner than > you'd think (or maybe people upgrade well before that happens :-)). > definitely. I just completed duplicating my 4tb archive system, and will be mirroring to that system hopefully someday off site. > Perhaps SSDs will change the playing field a little, but overall > I doubt that reliability levels will shoot up drastically: there's > always something that can be shaved slightly thinner to save a few > pennies (and if things don't go wrong eventually, how can you sell > them a shinier widget?). > > Antonio > > I'm not sure how to do a real backup of 4tb in both media and practice. I tried using a 2 2tb LVM linux system, and archiving those drives, but that doesn't thrill me. I'm not really interested in tape anymore. Any thoughts on those or other means of large backups. It doesn't take much to get to about 2 1/2 tb these days when you have 15 to 20 years of ever increasing multi gb drives, and take the approach to put all of the unique data from each onto a single archive. Jim Jim From adam at nitrate.plus.com Thu Nov 4 04:16:40 2010 From: adam at nitrate.plus.com (adam at nitrate.plus.com) Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2010 09:16:40 -0000 Subject: DEC H9504 'double hi-boy' cabinet parts Message-ID: Good morning / afternoon / evening people. For long enough now my PDP 11/70 (decdatasystem 570) has sat around without the side panels ('skins') or the lower front cover (the long, usually blue panel with the air vents). Can anybody assist with clothing this magnificent beast? I ask now because I _had_ a 11/60 cabinet for this purpose reserved with a dealer, but they scrapped it a few weeks ago (just when I wanted to collect it). I'm in the UK by the way before people read too far. In the north actually, but am very willing to travel for the right bits. Cash waiting, if thats what you want. According to the 11/60 document MP00166 (the 11/60 in this case being housed in the same H9504 high-boy corporate cabinet), the part numbers are as follows: Side skins: H9504-CA Front cover: H9504-Rx (x denotes the colour / logo config but I'm not bothered... it can be resprayed) If somebody had the whole cabinet, I have a trailer!! The side panels can also be found on many expansion cabinets / tape systems (for example they are used on my TS11) and, by the looks of it, early VAX. I'd be very appreciative if anybody can help me out. Condition is really unimportant as I have a paint sprayshop handy. Thanks in advance! ..Adam.. From chrise at pobox.com Thu Nov 4 13:46:34 2010 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2010 13:46:34 -0500 Subject: PDP-11/34A bring up In-Reply-To: References: <20101101152950.GF2158@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <20101104184634.GP15701@n0jcf.net> Thanks Tony and others for all the info on grant continuity and basic Unibus behavior. I think I understand the issues now. Jack Rubin is going to loan me a couple G727A grant continuity cards which, after I wire-wrap the NPG signals back in place, should let me bring the machine up correctly. Nice to see the other 11/34A that Bill saved too. My next mission will be to get the pair of RL02 running... but I need some parts for that. Does anyone have, front panel indicator covers: qty 2 FAULT 1 LOAD 1 READY #1 1 WRITE PROT round cable for drive to drive connection transition from flat cable leaving RL11 to round cable going to drives I have one round cable to connect one drive... but without the transition, I'm kinda stuck unless I go inside the drives and convert everything to flat cable and connectors. Would really appreciate any leads on where these parts might be found. Chris On Tuesday (11/02/2010 at 07:27PM +0000), Tony Duell wrote: > > > > I am the new keeper of the PDP-11/34A that Jack Rubin rescued a while > > ago and wrote about here, > > > > http://decpicted.blogspot.com/2010/01/pdp-1134a-data-systems-design-dsd-880.html > > > > I took it on a road trip from Chicago back to St. Paul after VCFMW > > in September. > > > > I've been doing a lot of cleanup on it and finally got to the point > > where I could power it on (just the CPU box) this weekend. > > > > I think now I need to learn about Grant Continuity ;-) > > I think you're right there :-) > > > > > There is a M9302 terminator installed in the last slot (left most when > > looking from the front of the machine) and also an M9312 in slot 4 > > (amoungst the CPU and cache cards). > > > > Two of the original boards are removed from the backplane... the DSD > > 808830 controller and the DILOG DU130 tape controller. They were in > > slots 12 and 13. > > Almost certainly both of those would be DMA devices ('NPR' in DEC's > terminologiy, meaning 'Non Processor Request') . As a result, the NPG > (non provessor grant) jumper will have been removed from the backplane > wiring on those 2 slots. > > > > > I then also have an RL11 on hand but it is not currently installed in > > the machine. > > > > When I power up the machine, it immediately lights the RUN light on the > > KY11-B programmer's console. No matter what I do from that console, I > > cannot get it to exit RUN or print anything to the serial terminal. > > > > However, if I remove the M9302 terminator (a trick I found on some web > > page), then sure enough, I can HALT it, the RUN light goes out and I can > > do CTRL+BOOT and the serial terminal will spring to life with a register > > dump and the '@' prompt. > > > > I'm pretty sure that my problem is the empty slots 12 and 13 where boards > > used to be and should now have Grant Continuity cards installed instead... > > but I am curious why pulling the M9302 makes it "work". What is the > > mechanism at play there? > > I would agree with all that. You've done the first test that I always > suggest -- Pull the M9302 (and replace it with an M930 if you have one). > > )OK, as to what';s going on. This is is basically what should heppen when > a Bus Request (BR) or Non Procesor Requeest occurs : > > 1) Periphral asserts the appropraite BR on NPR line > > 2) Procesosr (actually the arbiter if you're pedantic) asserts the > associated Grant line, procided (in the case of an BR) the priority level > is high enough. Note that the grant lines are not bussed along the Unibus > slots. Instead, the grant lines from th processor/arbiter) go to the > grant inputs on the first Unibus slot. The grant outputs of that slot go > to the grant inuts of the next slot, and so on. > > 3) A device which is not issuing a request at that level will simply pass > the grant on, and make it's grant outputs the same state as the grant > inputs. That's what a grant contuity card does (in a trivial way by > simply connecting the inputs ot the outputs) > > 4) The device that did issue the reuest does not pass the grant on (it > keeps its grant outputs deasserted) so that no device s further from the > processor can repsond ot the grant. It then asserts SACK (Select > ACKnowlddge) on the Unibus to say that it's accepted the grant. I think > at this point the arbiter seasserts the grant lines, the peripohertla has > control of the Unibus. > > Now, normally, a grant should never get as far as the terminator at the > far end of the Unibus. Because the grant was issued in response to a > requexst from a device, and that device should intercept the grant and > not pass it on. > > However, IIRC there can be a condition where things don't quite > synchornise properly. Under those conditions, hte grant is not > intercepted, as a result, the SACK line is never asserted and I think the > machine hacks. So the M9302 terminator has a little bit of logic to > assert SACK if it sees a grant. > > But that birings in aother problem. The grant lines, unlike the other > Unibus signals, are active high. So if the grant chain is broken at some > point, th grant inputs of all devices after th break will seem to be > asserted. Those grants will get to the terminator, which asserts SACK, > and the system hcngs for another reason. > > That's waht you're seeing. > > > > > I also suspect that I may have to look at the backplane wiring for slots > > 12 and 13 to put back whatever DMA jumpering might have been modified for > > the two cards that used to be there-- or, at least for one of them as > > I can probably put the RL11 into one of those slots and it requires DMA. > > It's a little wire-wrapped jumper between pins CA1 and CB1 of the Unibus > slot. That is, the rearmsot 2 contacts on the right hand side (compoennt > side of the PCB) on the 3rd edge conenctor from the rear of the machine. > > Most of the grant contiuity cards used on 11/34s are the little almost > square ones which go in connector D. Those connect up the 4 bus grant > lines, but not the NPG line. There is a dual-height continuity card which > goies into C nad D and completes all grants, but they're not as common. > > A trick I've usef for testing is to cut a little strip of single-sided > copper clad boardthat will go ito the C connector and connect pins CA 1 > and CB1 only. > > When I fit NPG jumpers by wire-srapping them on the backplane, I use red > or orange wire-wrp wire ot make them easier to spot in the future. > > And yes the RL11 is a DMA device, you must remove the NPG jumper from the > slot where it's fitted > > -tony -- Chris Elmquist From jws at jwsss.com Thu Nov 4 16:26:49 2010 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2010 14:26:49 -0700 Subject: CPU scrap In-Reply-To: <201011042057.oA4KvXUO098196@billY.EZWIND.NET> References: <23A678B00752413BBB4ACB90316A22A8@dell8300> <201011042057.oA4KvXUO098196@billY.EZWIND.NET> Message-ID: <4CD32519.1040100@jwsss.com> I don't own an HP 2116 because of the price of silver back in the day. It was claimed to have $1000 worth of silver, and the seller got that though other comparable minis at the time were selling for no more than about $500 (entire rack usually). Same for 4381's. I paid $500 for one I had at one time due to gold recovery value (1985 time frame) Jim On 11/4/2010 1:56 PM, John Foust wrote: > At 03:48 PM 11/4/2010, Teo Zenios wrote: >> How much of the earlier stuff was saved from melting because gold was only worth $350 an ounce in the booming 90's compared to $1390 in the current depression? > Ha! Just the other day I decided I should disassemble the PPros from > two old quad PPro Proliant 14U servers. There seemed to be no value to > them as parts or intact. Somewhere on the net claimed they have $30-40 > in gold in each PPro. When I checked eBay, it seemed to be true. > Someone was even selling a new-old-stock CASE of PPros, and the high price > must've reflected the gold value. > > - John > > From jws at jwsss.com Thu Nov 4 22:46:59 2010 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2010 20:46:59 -0700 Subject: scsi? port question In-Reply-To: <4CD3795C.80105@neurotica.com> References: <4CD37608.3070407@neurotica.com> <4CD3795C.80105@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4CD37E33.6000807@jwsss.com> It is a SCSI. Sun used the 50 pin Dsub, and I suspect the dsub 25 is for Apple. Might not be good very fast, but it would work for probably to 10mhz at least single ended devices. I had one similar, but not brand name. something bent up by a company in Orange county back in the day. Remember the Sun Bricks that went with Sparc 1's etc. Jim On 11/4/2010 8:26 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 11/4/10 11:20 PM, Brian Lanning wrote: >>> Given the styling of that box, matching IBM PC and XT machines, >>> I'd really >>> be surprised if it were SCSI. I'd guess it were some sort of >>> proprietary-interfaced expansion box. >>> >>> That said, early (but almost a decade later than early IBM PCs) Sun >>> machines used those DD-50 connectors for both SCSI and IPI interfaces. >> >> I thought I saw a 50-pin ribbon cable in there. > > Maybe, but its styling suggests that it predates widespread use of > SCSI, and SCSI didn't make big inroads into the PC world anywhere near > that era. > >> I might be wrong >> though. I could always yank the cable and connectors and replace it >> with some scsi cabling. I've also considered putting a mini itx >> motherboard in there. > > That's kinda sick. I like it. :) > > Wasn't someone here looking for a PC- or XT-styled expansion chassis > like this recently? > > -Dave > From jws at jwsss.com Thu Nov 4 22:52:24 2010 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2010 20:52:24 -0700 Subject: scsi? port question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CD37F78.70308@jwsss.com> Magna also was a brand name of tape drive. Someone could have pulled the drive. Look for "magna tape" or "magna scsi" to hit references. On 11/4/2010 8:03 PM, Brian Lanning wrote: > I picked up one of these cases not too long ago: > > http://cgi.ebay.com/Vintage-Magna-External-Drive-Case-and-Power-Supply-/150515308468?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item230b6957b4 > > Could someone give me the scoop on the ports on the back? One looks > like a typical db-25 scsi. What's the other one, the one with three > rows of pins? Is this another type of scsi port? > > brian > > From rodsmallwood at btconnect.com Fri Nov 5 03:41:23 2010 From: rodsmallwood at btconnect.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2010 08:41:23 -0000 Subject: Moving Home - repeat In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <76F26ABF13904235894B01DEA7441CC4@RodsDevSystem> I'll take the Vax4000/500 CPU Card as I have VAX 4000/500 I'm near Reading (UK) Regards ? Rod Smallwood ? -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dan Williams Sent: 05 November 2010 00:01 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Moving Home - repeat On 4 November 2010 22:33, Dan Williams wrote: > Hi, > > I still have : > > An Octane > Sun Blade 2000 > Dell Itanium blade (Heavy) > 2 x Dual machine blade sparc machines > > I hate to do this but if they are not claimed by Monday they will have > to be thrown out. > > > I have also found a processor card still in it it's box for a Vax > 4000/500 if anyone is interested. > > > Dan > Should of said it's in London, UK Dan From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Nov 5 04:52:55 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 05 Nov 2010 02:52:55 -0700 Subject: exaggerated claims regarding gold in Pentium Pro (was Re: CPU scrap) In-Reply-To: <4F70040BF99D4AA4B7F6172DBEB991BA@dell8300> References: <23A678B00752413BBB4ACB90316A22A8@dell8300>, , <201011042057.oA4KvXUO098196@billY.EZWIND.NET>, , , <4CD2C127.20200.157E21E@cclist.sydex.com> <4F70040BF99D4AA4B7F6172DBEB991BA@dell8300> Message-ID: <4CD3D3F7.9090401@brouhaha.com> Teo Zenios wrote: >> From the wiki: > > "Some models of Pentium Pro chips contain as much as 1.1 grams of > Gold. Because gold's price has increased more than 500% since 1995, > the price of the gold in one of these chips has gone from $8.25 to > close to $45 per chip." > > Which models I don't know. Original price per chip must have been over > $1000, so $10 in gold would not have bankrupted Intel. > I don't believe that it was anywhere near 1.1 grams; in fact I believe that is wrong by more than an order of magnitude. There was no reason to put that much gold into the thing, even when gold was at 25% of its current price. It's not a matter of what would have bankrupted Intel; if the cost of using gold in the package had been $10, they probably could have found a less expensive package, such as kovar/nickel. While the Pentium Pro's cavity lid is large, the gold plating on the kovar is *very* thin. Typically 50 microinches. The lid is around two square inches, so the total gold is about 0.032 grams, which is around 0.001 troy oz, or about $1.40 worth of gold at today's prices. My estimate might not be terribly accurate, but I don't think it's off by a factor of 30. There were some Pentium Pro chips sold in the >$500 range, but others were in the $150-200 range, and the packaging was identical. The people claiming that there is $45 in gold in a Pentium Pro must be trying to unload Pentium Pros. Eric From jws at jwsss.com Fri Nov 5 02:28:15 2010 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Fri, 05 Nov 2010 00:28:15 -0700 Subject: CPU scrap In-Reply-To: References: <23A678B00752413BBB4ACB90316A22A8@dell8300> <201011042057.oA4KvXUO098196@billY.EZWIND.NET> <4CD2C127.20200.157E21E@cclist.sydex.com> <4F70040BF99D4AA4B7F6172DBEB991BA@dell8300> <4CD39E7D.7010707@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4CD3B20F.5080100@jwsss.com> In the 80's there was a guy here in the Southern California area doing fairly large scale gold recovery, and he was using guys who powered the scrap and highgraded it with cyanide in low quantities, and there was another guy who had hauled in and reconditioned an ore crusher system from a mine in the desert to do things up to about 1/2 the size of a volkswagen. both were crooks, but he knew how crooked, and also that there was not a way to do any better on his own. I'm talking a 3 acre large yard full of electronics at a time on an ongoing basis, and he was a feeder to the actual recovery guy. he had a soft spot for Dec and PDP 11's and would not powder them, but everything else went in the junk. Jim On 11/4/2010 11:17 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >> The problem is the cost to extract it. > Which is not much, when done in decent quantities. Most guys deal in > Gaylord sized increments, not a pile of boards here and there. > > -- > Will > > From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Nov 5 07:24:08 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 05 Nov 2010 08:24:08 -0400 Subject: CPU scrap In-Reply-To: References: <23A678B00752413BBB4ACB90316A22A8@dell8300> <201011042057.oA4KvXUO098196@billY.EZWIND.NET> <4CD2C127.20200.157E21E@cclist.sydex.com> <4CD3975D.3090604@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4CD3F768.4050006@neurotica.com> On 11/5/10 2:15 AM, William Donzelli wrote: >> I am not saying there isn't gold value in these but.... every person I've >> run into doing the cpu for gold content thing usually knew very little about >> computers and even less about how expensive/dangerous it is to extract the >> gold. They just lived among piles and pile of old cpus and bits of circuit >> boards always waiting to cash in one day. That and did drugs. Not all but, >> many. I've run into a few. > > I do not think you really know what you are talking about. I dunno, that seems pretty much on par (if, admittedly, a tad pessimistic) with the ones I've known. That was only ten or so, so not a huge dataset, but there was definitely some consistency. Most of those guys had it down to a science...they really knew how to take good stuff and turn it into raw materials that were worth less, and somehow end up making a damn good living at it. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Nov 5 07:25:06 2010 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Fri, 05 Nov 2010 07:25:06 -0500 Subject: CPU scrap In-Reply-To: References: <23A678B00752413BBB4ACB90316A22A8@dell8300> <201011042057.oA4KvXUO098196@billY.EZWIND.NET> <4CD2C127.20200.157E21E@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <201011051227.oA5CR0d4028158@billY.EZWIND.NET> At 12:02 AM 11/5/2010, dwight elvey wrote: > I might believe $3-$4 but Intel would have been out of business if >they put even $10 worth of gold into a PPro. Yesterday gold was $1392 per troy ounce, or $44.75 a gram. It was $386 in 1995 when the PPro was introduced. I would say this much: I bet I'd get a higher price on eBay from someone who believed there was a gram of gold than one who knew there was 0.3 grams. Wikipedia even says that some models have 1.1 grams. So Intel might've had $4 to $12 of gold in one. I seem to remember there were PPros that sold for $800+ when they were introduced, although there were some in the $200 range. Google Shopping says you can still buy 200 Mhz ones for $25 (used) to $41-$53 new. Short of Intel's own measurements, there's lots of interesting and questionable info out on the Internet. Heaven knows that gold bugs and gold scrappers always tell the truth and never stretch. Some factoids I found in a few minutes' searching: motherboards have 10 ounces of gold per ton average PC has 1 gram of gold a gram of gold per kilo for RAM 8088 ceramics have solid 10K gold pins This one had specific CPUs with pics and weights: http://forums.silverstackers.com/viewtopic.php?id=1853 And then there's the chip collectors. So I think I'll scrap those two quad PPro Proliant 7000 this weekend. Maybe I'll keep one CPU for a chip collection or gold hair comb. - John From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Nov 5 07:28:00 2010 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Fri, 05 Nov 2010 07:28:00 -0500 Subject: CPU scrap In-Reply-To: <4CD3F768.4050006@neurotica.com> References: <23A678B00752413BBB4ACB90316A22A8@dell8300> <201011042057.oA4KvXUO098196@billY.EZWIND.NET> <4CD2C127.20200.157E21E@cclist.sydex.com> <4CD3975D.3090604@gmail.com> <4CD3F768.4050006@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <201011051228.oA5CShAF028244@billY.EZWIND.NET> At 07:24 AM 11/5/2010, Dave McGuire wrote: > Most of those guys had it down to a science...they really knew how to take good stuff and turn it into raw materials that were worth less, and somehow end up making a damn good living at it. Ha! They made it up in volume. There are lots of buyers for commodities. Fewer buyers for old computers, right? - John From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Nov 5 07:34:14 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 05 Nov 2010 08:34:14 -0400 Subject: CPU scrap In-Reply-To: <201011051228.oA5CShAF028244@billY.EZWIND.NET> References: <23A678B00752413BBB4ACB90316A22A8@dell8300> <201011042057.oA4KvXUO098196@billY.EZWIND.NET> <4CD2C127.20200.157E21E@cclist.sydex.com> <4CD3975D.3090604@gmail.com> <4CD3F768.4050006@neurotica.com> <201011051228.oA5CShAF028244@billY.EZWIND.NET> Message-ID: <4CD3F9C6.7090509@neurotica.com> On 11/5/10 8:28 AM, John Foust wrote: > At 07:24 AM 11/5/2010, Dave McGuire wrote: >> Most of those guys had it down to a science...they really knew how to take good stuff and turn it into raw materials that were worth less, and somehow end up making a damn good living at it. > > Ha! They made it up in volume. > > There are lots of buyers for commodities. Fewer buyers for old computers, right? Absolutely right. I (we) are just lucky that many of them are reasonably nice guys and will occasionally throw people like us (or allow people like us to purchase) a bone. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Nov 5 07:37:21 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 05 Nov 2010 08:37:21 -0400 Subject: scsi? port question In-Reply-To: <4CD37E33.6000807@jwsss.com> References: <4CD37608.3070407@neurotica.com> <4CD3795C.80105@neurotica.com> <4CD37E33.6000807@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <4CD3FA81.6070106@neurotica.com> On 11/4/10 11:46 PM, jim s wrote: > It is a SCSI. Sun used the 50 pin Dsub, and I suspect the dsub 25 is for > Apple. > > Might not be good very fast, but it would work for probably to 10mhz at > least single ended devices. > > I had one similar, but not brand name. something bent up by a company in > Orange county back in the day. > > Remember the Sun Bricks that went with Sparc 1's etc. Yebbut...That's a PC- or XT-styled chassis. Am I putting too much stock in that fact? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Nov 5 07:39:46 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 05 Nov 2010 08:39:46 -0400 Subject: scsi? port question In-Reply-To: References: <4CD37608.3070407@neurotica.com> <4CD37D41.6040504@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4CD3FB12.8060108@neurotica.com> On 11/4/10 11:58 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> I thought all of the 5.25" SMD drives came out more than a decade >> after that style of chassis would've been common. > > Really? ISTR that chassis style was in vogue from about 1981-1986 or so. > > I'm not asserting that 5.25" SMD wasn't later, but I'm wondering about > how much later. The least capacious 5.25" SMD drive I've seen was 1.2GB. The drive technology contemporary with that chassis style would have been in the 10-30MB range. That's why I doubt it. (no other reason really) >> I'd really be >> surprised if it were SMD, even if the 60/26-pin connectors would be a >> huge coincidence. > > If it _is_ 60/26, I'd be surprised if it turned out to be something > other than SMD. I think it's not enough pins for an ISA extension, > but that's another possibility. The rear of the chassis doesn't suggest that it's an ISA expansion box; there are no slots. > I'm mostly speculating about what fits the external appearance based > on all sorts of products that were available at one point. It really > would help to know more about the internal cabling to make a more > targeted guess. Agreed. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Nov 5 07:55:03 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 05 Nov 2010 08:55:03 -0400 Subject: 68K In-Reply-To: <4CD1C054.8030008@softjar.se> References: <4CD1C054.8030008@softjar.se> Message-ID: <4CD3FEA7.3040304@neurotica.com> On 11/3/10 4:04 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote: >>> > and a second CPU, Apollo made the primary CPU stall on a page >>> fault, and the >>> > secondady CPU wake up. The secondary CPU could then do a page in... >> That sounds like the design of the Perkin-Elmer workstation I have - >> two 68000s, one for running the OS, one for paging. > > I wouldn't be surprised to learn that SUN did something similar as well... They didn't, at least not in any machine that made it into production. They used an MMU of their own design, implemented in descrete TTL, PALs, and gate arrays, until they moved to the 68030. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Fri Nov 5 07:56:47 2010 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 05 Nov 2010 07:56:47 -0500 Subject: scsi? port question In-Reply-To: <4CD37E33.6000807@jwsss.com> References: <4CD37608.3070407@neurotica.com> <4CD3795C.80105@neurotica.com> <4CD37E33.6000807@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <4CD3FF0F.6020300@gmail.com> jim s wrote: > It is a SCSI. Sun used the 50 pin Dsub, and I suspect the dsub 25 is > for Apple. I've certainly seen tape drives in cases like that. I've also seen a PC SCSI card with a 25-pin Apple-a-like connector on it. As you say, Sun used that style of 50-pin connector... so I suspect it was just a tape backup unit at one point in time. cheers Jules From pat at computer-refuge.org Fri Nov 5 08:10:44 2010 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2010 09:10:44 -0400 Subject: exaggerated claims regarding gold in Pentium Pro (was Re: CPU scrap) In-Reply-To: <4CD3D3F7.9090401@brouhaha.com> References: <23A678B00752413BBB4ACB90316A22A8@dell8300> <4F70040BF99D4AA4B7F6172DBEB991BA@dell8300> <4CD3D3F7.9090401@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <201011050910.44745.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Friday, November 05, 2010, Eric Smith wrote: > Teo Zenios wrote: > >> From the wiki: > > "Some models of Pentium Pro chips contain as much as 1.1 grams of > > Gold. Because gold's price has increased more than 500% since 1995, > > the price of the gold in one of these chips has gone from $8.25 to > > close to $45 per chip." > > > > Which models I don't know. Original price per chip must have been > > over $1000, so $10 in gold would not have bankrupted Intel. > > I don't believe that it was anywhere near 1.1 grams; in fact I > believe that is wrong by more than an order of magnitude. There was > no reason to put that much gold into the thing, even when gold was > at 25% of its current price. It's not a matter of what would have > bankrupted Intel; if the cost of using gold in the package had been > $10, they probably could have found a less expensive package, such > as kovar/nickel. A few years ago, a scrapper would give me just over $6 per PPro in qty 1, so either he was an idiot (less likely), or there's something to this. Don't forget to include the bond-out wires, the fact that there's two pieces of silicon that need to be interconnected, and the gold plating on pins. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From legalize at xmission.com Fri Nov 5 09:22:59 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 05 Nov 2010 08:22:59 -0600 Subject: Since we are talking about 1/4" tape drives In-Reply-To: <4CD38AD1.3070205@gmail.com> References: <4CD37608.3070407@neurotica.com> <4CD37D41.6040504@neurotica.com> <4CD38AD1.3070205@gmail.com> Message-ID: How hard is it to fake out a SCSI tape drive interface with an FPGA/controller so that the tape data can be streamed from a file on another system? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Nov 5 09:46:12 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2010 10:46:12 -0400 Subject: CPU scrap In-Reply-To: <4CD32519.1040100@jwsss.com> References: <23A678B00752413BBB4ACB90316A22A8@dell8300> <201011042057.oA4KvXUO098196@billY.EZWIND.NET> <4CD32519.1040100@jwsss.com> Message-ID: > I don't own an HP 2116 because of the price of silver back in the day. ?It > was claimed to have $1000 worth of silver, and the seller got that though > other comparable minis at the time were selling for no more than about $500 > (entire rack usually). HP stuff is almost always worth a good double of what other comparable stuff is selling for as scrap. HP tended to plate the whole circuit boards with gold, even if covered in solder and/or a mask. -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Nov 5 09:50:52 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2010 10:50:52 -0400 Subject: exaggerated claims regarding gold in Pentium Pro (was Re: CPU scrap) In-Reply-To: <201011050910.44745.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <23A678B00752413BBB4ACB90316A22A8@dell8300> <4F70040BF99D4AA4B7F6172DBEB991BA@dell8300> <4CD3D3F7.9090401@brouhaha.com> <201011050910.44745.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: > A few years ago, a scrapper would give me just over $6 per PPro in qty > 1, so either he was an idiot (less likely), or there's something to > this. This sounds right. The gold scrappers (electronics, coins, teeth, jewelry) actually do not make a whole lot of profit when they get their gold processed. They make their money - and sometimes fantastic money - by riding the wave of increasing gold prices. -- WILL From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Nov 5 10:41:28 2010 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 05 Nov 2010 08:41:28 -0700 Subject: Since we are talking about 1/4" tape drives In-Reply-To: References: <4CD37608.3070407@neurotica.com> <4CD37D41.6040504@neurotica.com> <4CD38AD1.3070205@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4CD425A8.2080902@bitsavers.org> On 11/5/10 7:22 AM, Richard wrote: > How hard is it to fake out a SCSI tape drive interface with an > FPGA/controller so that the tape data can be streamed from a file on > another system? It should be fairly simple to modify the SCSI target disk mode code to pretend it's a SCSI tape. From legalize at xmission.com Fri Nov 5 10:51:13 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 05 Nov 2010 09:51:13 -0600 Subject: Since we are talking about 1/4" tape drives In-Reply-To: <4CD425A8.2080902@bitsavers.org> References: <4CD37608.3070407@neurotica.com> <4CD37D41.6040504@neurotica.com> <4CD38AD1.3070205@gmail.com> <4CD425A8.2080902@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: In article <4CD425A8.2080902 at bitsavers.org>, Al Kossow writes: > On 11/5/10 7:22 AM, Richard wrote: > > How hard is it to fake out a SCSI tape drive interface with an > > FPGA/controller so that the tape data can be streamed from a file on > > another system? > > It should be fairly simple to modify the SCSI target disk mode code > to pretend it's a SCSI tape. "SCSI target disk mode code" um.... are you talking about a code value in the SCSI command stream or are you referring to some piece of source code? If the latter, which source are you talking about? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Nov 5 10:58:52 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 05 Nov 2010 11:58:52 -0400 Subject: Since we are talking about 1/4" tape drives In-Reply-To: References: <4CD37608.3070407@neurotica.com> <4CD37D41.6040504@neurotica.com> <4CD38AD1.3070205@gmail.com> <4CD425A8.2080902@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4CD429BC.4090008@neurotica.com> On 11/5/10 11:51 AM, Richard wrote: >>> How hard is it to fake out a SCSI tape drive interface with an >>> FPGA/controller so that the tape data can be streamed from a file on >>> another system? >> >> It should be fairly simple to modify the SCSI target disk mode code >> to pretend it's a SCSI tape. > > "SCSI target disk mode code" um.... are you talking about a code value > in the SCSI command stream or are you referring to some piece of > source code? > > If the latter, which source are you talking about? SCSI target mode implementations meaning OS device drivers that serve SCSI targets to client machines, via various transports. Nearly all modern OSs have such functionality now. In one implementation I've used, you can define a (possibly large) file, configure the driver to point at it, and have another computer connected via a SCSI bus (configured with a different initiator address of course) see that file as if it were a physical disk drive. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Fri Nov 5 10:49:10 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2010 13:49:10 -0200 Subject: Since we are talking about 1/4" tape drives References: <4CD37608.3070407@neurotica.com> <4CD37D41.6040504@neurotica.com> <4CD38AD1.3070205@gmail.com> <4CD425A8.2080902@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <3b9501cb7d02$996830e0$6600a8c0@portajara> > It should be fairly simple to modify the SCSI target disk mode code > to pretend it's a SCSI tape. Did I heard on the back "SCSI-to-SD-card-Adapter-open-source"????? :oD From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Nov 5 11:08:12 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 05 Nov 2010 12:08:12 -0400 Subject: Since we are talking about 1/4" tape drives In-Reply-To: <3b9501cb7d02$996830e0$6600a8c0@portajara> References: <4CD37608.3070407@neurotica.com> <4CD37D41.6040504@neurotica.com> <4CD38AD1.3070205@gmail.com> <4CD425A8.2080902@bitsavers.org> <3b9501cb7d02$996830e0$6600a8c0@portajara> Message-ID: <4CD42BEC.7080100@neurotica.com> On 11/5/10 11:49 AM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >> It should be fairly simple to modify the SCSI target disk mode code >> to pretend it's a SCSI tape. > > Did I heard on the back "SCSI-to-SD-card-Adapter-open-source"????? :oD That's what I was just thinking about. That's a MUCH nicer solution than connecting it to a computer somewhere. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Fri Nov 5 11:10:26 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2010 14:10:26 -0200 Subject: Since we are talking about 1/4" tape drives References: <4CD37608.3070407@neurotica.com> <4CD37D41.6040504@neurotica.com> <4CD38AD1.3070205@gmail.com> <4CD425A8.2080902@bitsavers.org><3b9501cb7d02$996830e0$6600a8c0@portajara> <4CD42BEC.7080100@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <3bf701cb7d04$0d084ca0$6600a8c0@portajara> >> Did I heard on the back "SCSI-to-SD-card-Adapter-open-source"????? :oD > That's what I was just thinking about. That's a MUCH nicer solution > than connecting it to a computer somewhere. This is something I always wanted to do. Maybe now I have enough free time :oD From pontus at Update.UU.SE Fri Nov 5 11:15:04 2010 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2010 17:15:04 +0100 Subject: Since we are talking about 1/4" tape drives In-Reply-To: <3bf701cb7d04$0d084ca0$6600a8c0@portajara> References: <4CD37D41.6040504@neurotica.com> <4CD38AD1.3070205@gmail.com> <4CD425A8.2080902@bitsavers.org> <3b9501cb7d02$996830e0$6600a8c0@portajara> <4CD42BEC.7080100@neurotica.com> <3bf701cb7d04$0d084ca0$6600a8c0@portajara> Message-ID: <20101105161504.GA12722@Update.UU.SE> On Fri, Nov 05, 2010 at 02:10:26PM -0200, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > >>Did I heard on the back "SCSI-to-SD-card-Adapter-open-source"????? :oD > > That's what I was just thinking about. That's a MUCH nicer > >solution than connecting it to a computer somewhere. > > This is something I always wanted to do. Maybe now I have enough > free time :oD > I would love a bunch of these for use with various old machines. They existing solutions seems hard to get fora reasonable price. /P From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Fri Nov 5 11:18:10 2010 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 05 Nov 2010 11:18:10 -0500 Subject: Since we are talking about 1/4" tape drives In-Reply-To: References: <4CD37608.3070407@neurotica.com> <4CD37D41.6040504@neurotica.com> <4CD38AD1.3070205@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4CD42E42.7000205@gmail.com> Richard wrote: > How hard is it to fake out a SCSI tape drive interface with an > FPGA/controller so that the tape data can be streamed from a file on > another system? At the theoretical level, the SCSI part's probably not too difficult - software-wise, I don't think the minimal command set needed to look like a SCSI tape device is particularly complex. The physical interface is simple enough, too. What I have no clue about is anything to do with FPGAs, though, or how easy it'd be to do the "communicate with another system" bit (via what - ethernet? USB?). I've got a bunch of Torch Manta SCSI-floppy bridge boards in storage, and those were quite neat - they use a NCR 5380 IC as the SCSI controller and Hitachi 63B03 as the CPU (along with some local RAM and ROM, and a 2793 FDC). In this day and age though, maybe there's no benefit to having a dedicated SCSI chip, and a FPGA would be able to twiddle signals perfectly fast enough* to keep up with demand - but that would have been the old-school way of doing it. * ISTR there being some timing constraints in SCSI when acting as a target - the host can take as long as it wants about things, but for certain actions the target is expected to respond within a certain time. All of which perhaps doesn't really answer your question, other than to say "it's easy for someone who knows how" :-) cheers Jules From teoz at neo.rr.com Fri Nov 5 11:26:28 2010 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2010 12:26:28 -0400 Subject: exaggerated claims regarding gold in Pentium Pro (was Re: CPUscrap) References: <23A678B00752413BBB4ACB90316A22A8@dell8300><4F70040BF99D4AA4B7F6172DBEB991BA@dell8300><4CD3D3F7.9090401@brouhaha.com><201011050910.44745.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <4DCB4C098A9E40EF8A1140FDA32E1473@dell8300> ----- Original Message ----- From: "William Donzelli" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Friday, November 05, 2010 10:50 AM Subject: Re: exaggerated claims regarding gold in Pentium Pro (was Re: CPUscrap) >> A few years ago, a scrapper would give me just over $6 per PPro in qty >> 1, so either he was an idiot (less likely), or there's something to >> this. > > This sounds right. > > The gold scrappers (electronics, coins, teeth, jewelry) actually do > not make a whole lot of profit when they get their gold processed. > They make their money - and sometimes fantastic money - by riding the > wave of increasing gold prices. > > -- > WILL They can also get burned on the way down. Many years ago (1999 I think) I was talking to the Coin, Silver, and Stamp shop owner I used to visit since I was in highschool (early 1980s). He was telling me about how he made several million during the last gold rush buying scrap and selling it, and how his $1,000,000 retirement bag of scrap got sold for $125K (after much begging) when the price of gold dropped afterwards and nobody wanted to touch scrap gold because it was dropping too fast. I think he pretty much was about even with what he sold and what he purchased that he was stuck with. Thankfully I loaded up on gold and silver back then, and even better still have it now. Back to the PPro, the normal 256K cache units seemed to have the gold top, while the 1MB units seemed to have a black top (not even sure what that was made from). No idea how they differed inside but the pin count had to be the same to fit in the same socket. Seems like I have quite a few of those high yield CPUs since I like early Pentiums and 486 CPUs. I can't really see selling them for scrap even if the pile is worth a bunch of money. It does reinforce my thinking that the 486 era chipped machines are going to be decimated by recyclers. I did hear from a part time recycler back in the 90's that old server chips tended to have quite a bit of gold in them, but I figured he meant the super computers and not Pentium Pros. And to be honest I didn't even know those 486 chips had much at all in them to be high yield. From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Fri Nov 5 11:34:14 2010 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 05 Nov 2010 11:34:14 -0500 Subject: Since we are talking about 1/4" tape drives In-Reply-To: <4CD42BEC.7080100@neurotica.com> References: <4CD37608.3070407@neurotica.com> <4CD37D41.6040504@neurotica.com> <4CD38AD1.3070205@gmail.com> <4CD425A8.2080902@bitsavers.org> <3b9501cb7d02$996830e0$6600a8c0@portajara> <4CD42BEC.7080100@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4CD43206.8060103@gmail.com> Dave McGuire wrote: > On 11/5/10 11:49 AM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >>> It should be fairly simple to modify the SCSI target disk mode code >>> to pretend it's a SCSI tape. >> >> Did I heard on the back "SCSI-to-SD-card-Adapter-open-source"????? :oD > > That's what I was just thinking about. That's a MUCH nicer solution > than connecting it to a computer somewhere. If you say so :-) I'd quite like a SCSI<->Ethernet bridge, I think. Something that can spit SCSI commands over the network to a remote machine. I could quite easily write some code to listen on a socket and interpret those commands in whatever way was useful (which would include pulling data from a file and just looking like a big ol' disk). cheers Jules From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Fri Nov 5 11:33:14 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2010 14:33:14 -0200 Subject: SCSI emulator References: <4CD37D41.6040504@neurotica.com><4CD38AD1.3070205@gmail.com> <4CD425A8.2080902@bitsavers.org><3b9501cb7d02$996830e0$6600a8c0@portajara><4CD42BEC.7080100@neurotica.com><3bf701cb7d04$0d084ca0$6600a8c0@portajara> <20101105161504.GA12722@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <3c4601cb7d07$77464c90$6600a8c0@portajara> > I would love a bunch of these for use with various old machines. They > existing solutions seems hard to get fora reasonable price. That is what I say. Phillip is doing one for floppies (great work, man! :oD) and maybe it can be expanded somehow for ST-506 drives and - who knows - SCSI :o) From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Nov 5 11:43:09 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 05 Nov 2010 12:43:09 -0400 Subject: Since we are talking about 1/4" tape drives In-Reply-To: <4CD43206.8060103@gmail.com> References: <4CD37608.3070407@neurotica.com> <4CD37D41.6040504@neurotica.com> <4CD38AD1.3070205@gmail.com> <4CD425A8.2080902@bitsavers.org> <3b9501cb7d02$996830e0$6600a8c0@portajara> <4CD42BEC.7080100@neurotica.com> <4CD43206.8060103@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4CD4341D.4000806@neurotica.com> On 11/5/10 12:34 PM, Jules Richardson wrote: >>>> It should be fairly simple to modify the SCSI target disk mode code >>>> to pretend it's a SCSI tape. >>> >>> Did I heard on the back "SCSI-to-SD-card-Adapter-open-source"????? :oD >> >> That's what I was just thinking about. That's a MUCH nicer solution >> than connecting it to a computer somewhere. > > If you say so :-) I do. :) I don't much relish the idea of connecting a big thick SCSI cable between two computers when the connection is going to end up being temporary. It just sounds like a pain. > I'd quite like a SCSI<->Ethernet bridge, I think. > Something that can spit SCSI commands over the network to a remote > machine. I could quite easily write some code to listen on a socket and > interpret those commands in whatever way was useful (which would include > pulling data from a file and just looking like a big ol' disk). That'd be pretty easy; it could basically be a transport layer translator to bridge parallel SCSI with iSCSI. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Nov 5 11:45:01 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 05 Nov 2010 12:45:01 -0400 Subject: SCSI emulator In-Reply-To: <3c4601cb7d07$77464c90$6600a8c0@portajara> References: <4CD37D41.6040504@neurotica.com><4CD38AD1.3070205@gmail.com> <4CD425A8.2080902@bitsavers.org><3b9501cb7d02$996830e0$6600a8c0@portajara><4CD42BEC.7080100@neurotica.com><3bf701cb7d04$0d084ca0$6600a8c0@portajara> <20101105161504.GA12722@Update.UU.SE> <3c4601cb7d07$77464c90$6600a8c0@portajara> Message-ID: <4CD4348D.8090202@neurotica.com> On 11/5/10 12:33 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >> I would love a bunch of these for use with various old machines. They >> existing solutions seems hard to get fora reasonable price. > > That is what I say. Phillip is doing one for floppies (great work, man! > :oD) and maybe it can be expanded somehow for ST-506 drives and - who > knows - SCSI :o) That'd be a pretty different animal, with SCSI being a high-level digital interface. There's no data separation, etc etc going on with SCSI interfaces. (as I'm sure you already know) Preserving/snapshotting the contents of a SCSI drive is as simple as hooking it to a UNIX box and running a "dd" command. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Nov 5 11:46:18 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 05 Nov 2010 09:46:18 -0700 Subject: CPU scrap In-Reply-To: <201011051227.oA5CR0d4028158@billY.EZWIND.NET> References: <23A678B00752413BBB4ACB90316A22A8@dell8300> <201011042057.oA4KvXUO098196@billY.EZWIND.NET> <4CD2C127.20200.157E21E@cclist.sydex.com> <201011051227.oA5CR0d4028158@billY.EZWIND.NET> Message-ID: <4CD434DA.9000509@brouhaha.com> John Foust wrote: > Heaven knows that gold bugs > and gold scrappers always tell the truth and never stretch. Same for people that have a bunch of something to be rid of, and want to manipulate the used price. > Some factoids I found in a few minutes' searching: > motherboards have 10 ounces of gold per ton > average PC has 1 gram of gold > a gram of gold per kilo for RAM > 8088 ceramics have solid 10K gold pins > "Factoid" is right! :-) The fourth one, about chips having solid gold pins, is *obviously* false. The others sound plausible. Eric From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Nov 5 11:51:26 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 05 Nov 2010 09:51:26 -0700 Subject: exaggerated claims regarding gold in Pentium Pro (was Re: CPU scrap) In-Reply-To: <201011050910.44745.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <23A678B00752413BBB4ACB90316A22A8@dell8300> <4F70040BF99D4AA4B7F6172DBEB991BA@dell8300> <4CD3D3F7.9090401@brouhaha.com> <201011050910.44745.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <4CD4360E.6010500@brouhaha.com> Patrick Finnegan wrote: > A few years ago, a scrapper would give me just over $6 per PPro in qty > 1, so either he was an idiot (less likely), or there's something to > this. I can think of a few other possible reasons that have nothing to do with gold content. The most obvious is simply that the resale value of a Pentium Pro was well over $6. > Don't forget to include the bond-out wires, the fact that there's two > pieces of silicon that need to be interconnected, and the gold plating > on pins. I don't think those add up to more than a small fraction of my estimate of the amount of gold on the kovar lid, but that is why I allowed for being off by an order of magnitude in my estimate, and yet the amount of gold even with that fudge factor is far less than the wild claims being made. Eric From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Nov 5 11:57:09 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2010 12:57:09 -0400 Subject: SCSI emulator In-Reply-To: <4CD4348D.8090202@neurotica.com> References: <4CD37D41.6040504@neurotica.com> <4CD38AD1.3070205@gmail.com> <4CD425A8.2080902@bitsavers.org> <3b9501cb7d02$996830e0$6600a8c0@portajara> <4CD42BEC.7080100@neurotica.com> <3bf701cb7d04$0d084ca0$6600a8c0@portajara> <20101105161504.GA12722@Update.UU.SE> <3c4601cb7d07$77464c90$6600a8c0@portajara> <4CD4348D.8090202@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On 11/5/10, Dave McGuire wrote: > Preserving/snapshotting the contents of a SCSI drive is as simple as > hooking it to a UNIX box and running a "dd" command. For drives that have 512-bytes-per-block (which is most of them), that's true, but there is the kink that really early SCSI devices, specifically many non-embedded drive controllers with attached drives (commonly MFM or ESDI) don't support the SCSI INQUIRE packet, so can't be easily connected to modern Linux/UNIX boxes. Probably nearly everything made since about 1990, though, "plug it in and use dd" works great. And, yeah, it was a PITA to connect them up back then too. That's why INQUIRE exists. -ethan From cclist at sydex.com Fri Nov 5 12:14:53 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 05 Nov 2010 10:14:53 -0700 Subject: Virtual memory In-Reply-To: <4CD1BC38.6060306@softjar.se> References: , <4CD1BC38.6060306@softjar.se> Message-ID: <4CD3D91D.19606.38D0FB@cclist.sydex.com> On 3 Nov 2010 at 20:47, Johnny Billquist wrote: > Ok. So, a program would think it addressed a memory space, which was > it's own, and the addresses it used would in no way related to the > actual physical memory it ended up referring to. I'd call that virtual > memory. Although, having to map the whole virtual memory as one chunk > to physical memory makes it a little more work, end less flexible than > having pages. And it pretty much prevents you from ever being able to > share memory in a reasonable way between processes. Well, not really. I refer you to the CDC 7000 SCOPE 2 operating system. There's a users' manual on bitsavers, but I suspect the design notebooks have long vanished from the face of the earth--so there's no documentation on the innards. At any rate, the CDC 7600 OS people had a peculiar problem. On the 6000 series of machines, PPUs are free-range; they have access to all of memory and at the time (say, 1968), comprised most of the operating system--there was almost no CPU code involved. You'd stick a request into your own location 1 and PP 0 would see it and detail off the work to the rest of the PPs. Very cool--you never gave up control of the CPU unless it was to yield to the job scheduler. But this wasn't possible on the 7600, as each PP was assigned its own hard-wired slot in CPU memory and was unable to access anything but that. So the 7600 PPs were detalled off to I/O only. (Now, I'd call that memory-mapped I/O--you want to to talk to a certain I/O processor, you communicate with it through a hardware-fixed location in memory.) Which left the CPU to handle OS tasks such as job scheduling and file management. A whole new can of worms, as SCM (the memory that a program could execute from was very fast, but somewhat limited). A small permanently-resident "kernel" to handle PP commination and task swapping was written, but job processing, file management, etc. was performed for each job with a sort of matryoushka doll setup of overlapping field lengths. In other words, a user program was completely enclosed within the record manager which was completely enclosed within a buffer manager which was completely enclosed within the job supervisor for that job. So all user memory was shared with successively higher privilege level tasks, differing only at what location their respective location 0s were assigned to physical memory. The 7600 also had a bulk core "LCM" which couldn't be executed from, but served for swapping and data storage. As far as piecemeal swapping, I'll leave that for another time when I discuss the CDC Zodiac operating system (1970), something for which I suspect no documentation survives. --Chuck From pcw at mesanet.com Fri Nov 5 12:17:23 2010 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2010 10:17:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: exaggerated claims regarding gold in Pentium Pro (was Re: CPU scrap) In-Reply-To: <4CD4360E.6010500@brouhaha.com> References: <23A678B00752413BBB4ACB90316A22A8@dell8300> <4F70040BF99D4AA4B7F6172DBEB991BA@dell8300> <4CD3D3F7.9090401@brouhaha.com> <201011050910.44745.pat@computer-refuge.org> <4CD4360E.6010500@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 5 Nov 2010, Eric Smith wrote: > Date: Fri, 05 Nov 2010 09:51:26 -0700 > From: Eric Smith > Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > ; > Subject: Re: exaggerated claims regarding gold in Pentium Pro (was Re: CPU > scrap) > > Patrick Finnegan wrote: >> A few years ago, a scrapper would give me just over $6 per PPro in qty >> 1, so either he was an idiot (less likely), or there's something to >> this. > I can think of a few other possible reasons that have nothing to do with gold > content. The most obvious is simply that the resale value of a Pentium Pro > was well over $6. > >> Don't forget to include the bond-out wires, the fact that there's two >> pieces of silicon that need to be interconnected, and the gold plating >> on pins. > I don't think those add up to more than a small fraction of my estimate of > the amount of gold on the kovar lid, but that is why I allowed for being off > by an order of magnitude in my estimate, and yet the amount of gold even with > that fudge factor is far less than the wild claims being made. > > Eric > Do they use gold-silicon eutectic die attach? If so I'd expect a lot of the gold would be there (but nowhere near a gram or even 1/10th) Peter Wallace Mesa Electronics From leaknoil at gmail.com Fri Nov 5 12:19:30 2010 From: leaknoil at gmail.com (leaknoil) Date: Fri, 05 Nov 2010 10:19:30 -0700 Subject: exaggerated claims regarding gold in Pentium Pro (was Re: CPUscrap) In-Reply-To: <4DCB4C098A9E40EF8A1140FDA32E1473@dell8300> References: <23A678B00752413BBB4ACB90316A22A8@dell8300><4F70040BF99D4AA4B7F6172DBEB991BA@dell8300><4CD3D3F7.9090401@brouhaha.com><201011050910.44745.pat@computer-refuge.org> <4DCB4C098A9E40EF8A1140FDA32E1473@dell8300> Message-ID: <4CD43CA2.50903@gmail.com> On 11/5/2010 9:26 AM, Teo Zenios wrote: > I did hear from a part time recycler back in the 90's that old server > chips tended to have quite a bit of gold in them, but I figured he > meant the super computers and not Pentium Pros. And to be honest I > didn't even know those 486 chips had much at all in them to be high > yield. They used to love to get their hands on the Sun 4 VME stuff. They would start drooling at the site of those large Fujitsu SPARC chips. No idea if there was much gold in them or not actually. I would think a VME backplane would have more gold content then any chips. Probably why Sun 4 boxes are pretty much impossible to find anymore. From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Fri Nov 5 12:14:06 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2010 15:14:06 -0200 Subject: Since we are talking about 1/4" tape drives References: <4CD37608.3070407@neurotica.com> <4CD37D41.6040504@neurotica.com> <4CD38AD1.3070205@gmail.com> <4CD425A8.2080902@bitsavers.org> <3b9501cb7d02$996830e0$6600a8c0@portajara> <4CD42BEC.7080100@neurotica.com><4CD43206.8060103@gmail.com> <4CD4341D.4000806@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <3ea801cb7d0e$4915ca10$6600a8c0@portajara> > I do. :) I don't much relish the idea of connecting a big thick SCSI > cable between two computers when the connection is going to end up being > temporary. It just sounds like a pain. BTW, may I ask some stupid questions about SCSI here? - Can I connect one computer to another thru SCSI? - Can I connect a 80-pin device to a 50-pin controller? - Where to find cheap cables and HP sleds? :) Thanks! Alexandre PS: Oh, I could use a spare HPIB/GPIB board and some small cables... :o) From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Fri Nov 5 12:16:47 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2010 15:16:47 -0200 Subject: SCSI emulator References: <4CD37D41.6040504@neurotica.com><4CD38AD1.3070205@gmail.com> <4CD425A8.2080902@bitsavers.org><3b9501cb7d02$996830e0$6600a8c0@portajara><4CD42BEC.7080100@neurotica.com><3bf701cb7d04$0d084ca0$6600a8c0@portajara> <20101105161504.GA12722@Update.UU.SE><3c4601cb7d07$77464c90$6600a8c0@portajara> <4CD4348D.8090202@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <3ea901cb7d0e$4aaff210$6600a8c0@portajara> > That'd be a pretty different animal, with SCSI being a high-level > digital interface. There's no data separation, etc etc going on with SCSI > interfaces. (as I'm sure you already know) No, I don't. I never studied the SCSI interfacing electronics/protocol. And now I'm moving (do you believe my car with my things was robbed in the door of my new house? Lucky I had an alarm and it stopped the car 500m from my house!!! I was moving on wednesday, came back from Rio de Janeiro yesterday and only today I'm "back in the real world" after the incident), I'll have enough free time to take some attention to it. Maybe I'll try to do something in this area, seems a funny exercise anyways. > Preserving/snapshotting the contents of a SCSI drive is as simple as > hooking it to a UNIX box and running a "dd" command. It preserves any strange formatting? I realize I have ABSOLUTELY NO IDEA of the low level workings of SCSI devices... From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Nov 5 12:17:27 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2010 13:17:27 -0400 Subject: Since we are talking about 1/4" tape drives In-Reply-To: <3ea801cb7d0e$4915ca10$6600a8c0@portajara> References: <4CD37608.3070407@neurotica.com> <4CD37D41.6040504@neurotica.com> <4CD38AD1.3070205@gmail.com> <4CD425A8.2080902@bitsavers.org> <3b9501cb7d02$996830e0$6600a8c0@portajara> <4CD42BEC.7080100@neurotica.com><4CD43206.8060103@gmail.com> <4CD4341D.4000806@neurotica.com> <3ea801cb7d0e$4915ca10$6600a8c0@portajara> Message-ID: <02B83559-DEAD-46D0-A1BB-5CB3DF20EE01@neurotica.com> On Nov 5, 2010, at 1:14 PM, "Alexandre Souza - Listas" wrote: >> I do. :) I don't much relish the idea of connecting a big thick >> SCSI cable between two computers when the connection is going to >> end up being temporary. It just sounds like a pain. > > BTW, may I ask some stupid questions about SCSI here? > - Can I connect one computer to another thru SCSI? Yes, but the SCSI ID of one needs to be changed. > - Can I connect a 80-pin device to a 50-pin controller? Yes. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Fri Nov 5 12:43:44 2010 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 05 Nov 2010 12:43:44 -0500 Subject: Since we are talking about 1/4" tape drives In-Reply-To: <4CD4341D.4000806@neurotica.com> References: <4CD37608.3070407@neurotica.com> <4CD37D41.6040504@neurotica.com> <4CD38AD1.3070205@gmail.com> <4CD425A8.2080902@bitsavers.org> <3b9501cb7d02$996830e0$6600a8c0@portajara> <4CD42BEC.7080100@neurotica.com> <4CD43206.8060103@gmail.com> <4CD4341D.4000806@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4CD44250.3090106@gmail.com> Dave McGuire wrote: > On 11/5/10 12:34 PM, Jules Richardson wrote: >>>>> It should be fairly simple to modify the SCSI target disk mode code >>>>> to pretend it's a SCSI tape. >>>> >>>> Did I heard on the back "SCSI-to-SD-card-Adapter-open-source"????? :oD >>> >>> That's what I was just thinking about. That's a MUCH nicer solution >>> than connecting it to a computer somewhere. >> >> If you say so :-) > > I do. :) I don't much relish the idea of connecting a big thick SCSI > cable between two computers when the connection is going to end up being > temporary. It just sounds like a pain. Yeah, I saw it as the board being local to the vintage system, rather than local to the modern storage system - so the only cabling between systems would be a cat5 cable (or some sort of wireless widget I suppose, but urgh :-) >> I'd quite like a SCSI<->Ethernet bridge, I think. >> Something that can spit SCSI commands over the network to a remote >> machine. I could quite easily write some code to listen on a socket and >> interpret those commands in whatever way was useful (which would include >> pulling data from a file and just looking like a big ol' disk). > > That'd be pretty easy; it could basically be a transport layer > translator to bridge parallel SCSI with iSCSI. Maybe - but I've found an awful lot of old systems and devices that are a bit flakey when it comes to their SCSI implementations (not to mention things which send vendor-specific commands for control and setup); personally I think I'd rather have the transfer in "user-land" than try to seamlessly integrate it with a modern protocol. I get the impression (possibly wrong!) that something like iSCSI (and a back-end PC making use of it) might get tripped up by some vintage systems, but something doing the interpretation in user-space could easily be coded to cope. cheers Jules From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri Nov 5 12:22:38 2010 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2010 10:22:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCSI emulator In-Reply-To: <3ea901cb7d0e$4aaff210$6600a8c0@portajara> References: <4CD37D41.6040504@neurotica.com><4CD38AD1.3070205@gmail.com> <4CD425A8.2080902@bitsavers.org><3b9501cb7d02$996830e0$6600a8c0@portajara><4CD42BEC.7080100@neurotica.com><3bf701cb7d04$0d084ca0$6600a8c0@portajara> <20101105161504.GA12722@Update.UU.SE><3c4601cb7d07$77464c90$6600a8c0@portajara> <4CD4348D.8090202@neurotica.com> <3ea901cb7d0e$4aaff210$6600a8c0@portajara> Message-ID: On Fri, 5 Nov 2010, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > And now I'm moving (do you believe my car with my things was robbed in the > door of my new house? Lucky I had an alarm and it stopped the car 500m from > my house!!! I was moving on wednesday, came back from Rio de Janeiro I certainly hope you didn't miss the opportunity to beat the theif half-dead as an example to his peers... g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Nov 5 12:43:27 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2010 13:43:27 -0400 Subject: SCSI emulator In-Reply-To: <3ea901cb7d0e$4aaff210$6600a8c0@portajara> References: <4CD37D41.6040504@neurotica.com> <4CD38AD1.3070205@gmail.com> <4CD425A8.2080902@bitsavers.org> <3b9501cb7d02$996830e0$6600a8c0@portajara> <4CD42BEC.7080100@neurotica.com> <3bf701cb7d04$0d084ca0$6600a8c0@portajara> <20101105161504.GA12722@Update.UU.SE> <3c4601cb7d07$77464c90$6600a8c0@portajara> <4CD4348D.8090202@neurotica.com> <3ea901cb7d0e$4aaff210$6600a8c0@portajara> Message-ID: On 11/5/10, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >> Preserving/snapshotting the contents of a SCSI drive is as simple as >> hooking it to a UNIX box and running a "dd" command. > > It preserves any strange formatting? I realize I have ABSOLUTELY NO IDEA > of the low level workings of SCSI devices... As I mentioned in my recent reply to this thread, most of the time (nearly all of the time for stuff we on this list are likely to be working with these days), there is no strange formatting that's relevant. Long ago, we used to worry about what cylinder filesystems started on and optimizing things for head switching vs track stepping, but embedded SCSI (and IDE) drives hid so many of those details (and in many cases interposed a large on-board RAM cache) from the host that the art of tuning filesystems by position. The blocks themselves are nearly always formatted to 512 bytes per block (though in the earliest days, 256 bytes per block was not unknown), and the blocks can be just read out sequentially starting with 0000000 (which is something 'dd' is exceptionally good at). Another thing that changed was handling bad blocks on the disk - now, it's all hidden behind the scenes so that your OS "sees" a field of good blocks (previously, it wasn't unusual to have the OS-level driver participate in the sparing mechanism for using unallocated blocks/tracks to replace bad ones, or at least have a way to ignore bad spots - DOS floppies are a good example of that). Drives with analog cables to distinct read/write electronics are a different matter, but that's exactly what went away when the world turned to embedded-controller drives. You have a I/O-bus-like interface directly to the drive (digital data bus of 8 or 16 or more bits, handshaking, virtual I/O registers to read/write, a packet-like command structure, etc) that is from the view of the driver essentially identical to talking to an older-style controller card with detached drives. That's why 'dd' handles so many cases - you are just slurping sequential blocks from the media - you don't have to worry about head and track details, about vectoring off for bad blocks - a "perfect" disk image (until things start to go bad, then they go really bad, really fast). Hopefully this helps illuminate the arrangement some. -ethan From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Nov 5 12:47:11 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 05 Nov 2010 13:47:11 -0400 Subject: SCSI emulator In-Reply-To: References: <4CD37D41.6040504@neurotica.com> <4CD38AD1.3070205@gmail.com> <4CD425A8.2080902@bitsavers.org> <3b9501cb7d02$996830e0$6600a8c0@portajara> <4CD42BEC.7080100@neurotica.com> <3bf701cb7d04$0d084ca0$6600a8c0@portajara> <20101105161504.GA12722@Update.UU.SE> <3c4601cb7d07$77464c90$6600a8c0@portajara> <4CD4348D.8090202@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4CD4431F.40707@neurotica.com> On 11/5/10 12:57 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> Preserving/snapshotting the contents of a SCSI drive is as simple as >> hooking it to a UNIX box and running a "dd" command. > > For drives that have 512-bytes-per-block (which is most of them), > that's true, but there is the kink that really early SCSI devices, > specifically many non-embedded drive controllers with attached drives > (commonly MFM or ESDI) don't support the SCSI INQUIRE packet, so can't > be easily connected to modern Linux/UNIX boxes. Probably nearly > everything made since about 1990, though, "plug it in and use dd" > works great. > > And, yeah, it was a PITA to connect them up back then too. That's why > INQUIRE exists. This is very true, but given sufficient demand an other-than-512-byte-block SCSI subsystem could be put together for pretty much any of the Unices. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Fri Nov 5 12:51:42 2010 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 05 Nov 2010 12:51:42 -0500 Subject: Since we are talking about 1/4" tape drives In-Reply-To: <3ea801cb7d0e$4915ca10$6600a8c0@portajara> References: <4CD37608.3070407@neurotica.com> <4CD37D41.6040504@neurotica.com> <4CD38AD1.3070205@gmail.com> <4CD425A8.2080902@bitsavers.org> <3b9501cb7d02$996830e0$6600a8c0@portajara> <4CD42BEC.7080100@neurotica.com><4CD43206.8060103@gmail.com> <4CD4341D.4000806@neurotica.com> <3ea801cb7d0e$4915ca10$6600a8c0@portajara> Message-ID: <4CD4442E.1000203@gmail.com> Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >> I do. :) I don't much relish the idea of connecting a big thick >> SCSI cable between two computers when the connection is going to end >> up being temporary. It just sounds like a pain. > > BTW, may I ask some stupid questions about SCSI here? > - Can I connect one computer to another thru SCSI? From what I remember, the protocol allows it - and I seem to recall using some SGI systems that did this. Whether any modern commodity OS supports it though, I don't know - e.g. I think as recent as three years ago, Linux would barf if you tried to do it; the kernel code[1] just wasn't designed with the possibility in mind. Perhaps that's "fixed" now. [1] I think it may have been a driver issue rather than a fundamental problem with the core SCSI code, though - nobody coded the drivers to expect it, because nobody out there was crazy enough to be doing it :-) > - Can I connect a 80-pin device to a 50-pin controller? I've done it, but I'm not sure if it's part of the spec and therefore that you can expect it to work with whatever devices you throw at it. > - Where to find cheap cables and HP sleds? :) This is SCSI we're talking about - you don't want to be using cheap cables :-) cheers Jules From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Nov 5 12:52:02 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 05 Nov 2010 13:52:02 -0400 Subject: SCSI emulator In-Reply-To: <3ea901cb7d0e$4aaff210$6600a8c0@portajara> References: <4CD37D41.6040504@neurotica.com><4CD38AD1.3070205@gmail.com> <4CD425A8.2080902@bitsavers.org><3b9501cb7d02$996830e0$6600a8c0@portajara><4CD42BEC.7080100@neurotica.com><3bf701cb7d04$0d084ca0$6600a8c0@portajara> <20101105161504.GA12722@Update.UU.SE><3c4601cb7d07$77464c90$6600a8c0@portajara> <4CD4348D.8090202@neurotica.com> <3ea901cb7d0e$4aaff210$6600a8c0@portajara> Message-ID: <4CD44442.5070109@neurotica.com> On 11/5/10 1:16 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >> That'd be a pretty different animal, with SCSI being a high-level >> digital interface. There's no data separation, etc etc going on with >> SCSI interfaces. (as I'm sure you already know) > > No, I don't. I never studied the SCSI interfacing electronics/protocol. Ahh ok, I thought you had done some SCSI interfacing in the past. SCSI is an entirely digital, very high-level interface. It uses the same transport mechanism and low-level protocol to interface lots of different things...mass storage, scanners, printers, banks of serial ports (yes, banks of serial ports) and anything else you can think of. It looks more like a networking protocol than a disk interface. (because it's NOT a disk interface) The SCSI protocols are also used with different low-level transport mechanisms: SAS, FibreChannel, IBM's SSA, FireWire, ATAPI, and a few others. > And now I'm moving (do you believe my car with my things was robbed in > the door of my new house? Lucky I had an alarm and it stopped the car > 500m from my house!!! Oh no!! Beat him senseless! >> Preserving/snapshotting the contents of a SCSI drive is as simple as >> hooking it to a UNIX box and running a "dd" command. > > It preserves any strange formatting? I realize I have ABSOLUTELY NO IDEA > of the low level workings of SCSI devices... There is no strange formatting, in the way that we normally think of "formatting". It is not possible to reach those levels of a SCSI device, so there are no incompatibilities. The host says "give me block number 5324985", and sometime later, the target hard drive says "hey host, here's the data for block number 5324985 that you asked for". Zero format compatibility issues. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Nov 5 12:53:46 2010 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Fri, 05 Nov 2010 12:53:46 -0500 Subject: Since we are talking about 1/4" tape drives In-Reply-To: <4CD44250.3090106@gmail.com> References: <4CD37608.3070407@neurotica.com> <4CD37D41.6040504@neurotica.com> <4CD38AD1.3070205@gmail.com> <4CD425A8.2080902@bitsavers.org> <3b9501cb7d02$996830e0$6600a8c0@portajara> <4CD42BEC.7080100@neurotica.com> <4CD43206.8060103@gmail.com> <4CD4341D.4000806@neurotica.com> <4CD44250.3090106@gmail.com> Message-ID: <201011051753.oA5Hro7T045103@billY.EZWIND.NET> At 12:43 PM 11/5/2010, you wrote: >Maybe - but I've found an awful lot of old systems and devices that are a bit flakey when it comes to their SCSI implementations (not to mention things which send vendor-specific commands for control and setup); personally I think I'd rather have the transfer in "user-land" than try to seamlessly integrate it with a modern protocol. All you need to do is incorporate the blood sacrifice into the FPGA. That's the way we fixed SCSI issues in the old days. >I get the impression (possibly wrong!) that something like iSCSI (and a back-end PC making use of it) might get tripped up by some vintage systems, but something doing the interpretation in user-space could easily be coded to cope. The advantage would be that there are iSCSI devices and implementations already out there. There are downloadable VMware appliances to handle it, which makes the contemporary end a snap. I think there'd be a reasonably big market for a USB breakout device of some kind. I've tried several USB to IDE/SATA gizmos on dozens of semi-flakey drives, and WinXP tends to go into la-la land if the USB side isn't responding the way it should (which it'll do if the hard drive isn't responding the way it should.) I'd pay $200-300 for a device that would show me in great detail what's wrong, allow for a write-protect to keep Windows from writing to it, and/or allow me some alternative methods of getting to the drive's data. Sounds almost like some forensic recovery devices, but with more debugging output. Same for old SCSI, no? Somewhere in my junk piles I have a SCSI pass-through board with an LCD display that showed a count of blocks read/written. Why not more info? - John From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Fri Nov 5 13:00:00 2010 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 05 Nov 2010 13:00:00 -0500 Subject: SCSI emulator In-Reply-To: References: <4CD37D41.6040504@neurotica.com> <4CD38AD1.3070205@gmail.com> <4CD425A8.2080902@bitsavers.org> <3b9501cb7d02$996830e0$6600a8c0@portajara> <4CD42BEC.7080100@neurotica.com> <3bf701cb7d04$0d084ca0$6600a8c0@portajara> <20101105161504.GA12722@Update.UU.SE> <3c4601cb7d07$77464c90$6600a8c0@portajara> <4CD4348D.8090202@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4CD44620.7030803@gmail.com> Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 11/5/10, Dave McGuire wrote: >> Preserving/snapshotting the contents of a SCSI drive is as simple as >> hooking it to a UNIX box and running a "dd" command. > > For drives that have 512-bytes-per-block (which is most of them), > that's true, but there is the kink that really early SCSI devices, > specifically many non-embedded drive controllers with attached drives > (commonly MFM or ESDI) don't support the SCSI INQUIRE packet, so can't > be easily connected to modern Linux/UNIX boxes. Probably nearly > everything made since about 1990, though, "plug it in and use dd" > works great. It's a bit more murky than that (albeit a related issue) because a lot of the bridge boards expect a vendor-specific command to tell them the drive geometry of the attached drive, and there's no opportunity for the system drivers to inject the necessary command. I did have a look at adding such a facility to Linux a few years ago - kind of "at init, consult list and throw these params at device xxx via vendor command yyy" - but looking at the spaghetti that is the Linux kernel source is probably what gave me so many grey hairs ;-) I've got a *lot* of stuff that just won't talk to a modern system. It's either almost-SCSI (i.e. lacking inquiry or other quirks), or SASI. I got most of the way through building my own interface board that I could just drive from my own software, but that was the point I moved to the US, and it's all still in storage back in the UK. cheers Jules From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Nov 5 12:59:34 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 05 Nov 2010 13:59:34 -0400 Subject: Since we are talking about 1/4" tape drives In-Reply-To: <4CD4442E.1000203@gmail.com> References: <4CD37608.3070407@neurotica.com> <4CD37D41.6040504@neurotica.com> <4CD38AD1.3070205@gmail.com> <4CD425A8.2080902@bitsavers.org> <3b9501cb7d02$996830e0$6600a8c0@portajara> <4CD42BEC.7080100@neurotica.com><4CD43206.8060103@gmail.com> <4CD4341D.4000806@neurotica.com> <3ea801cb7d0e$4915ca10$6600a8c0@portajara> <4CD4442E.1000203@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4CD44606.2010907@neurotica.com> On 11/5/10 1:51 PM, Jules Richardson wrote: >>> I do. :) I don't much relish the idea of connecting a big thick SCSI >>> cable between two computers when the connection is going to end up >>> being temporary. It just sounds like a pain. >> >> BTW, may I ask some stupid questions about SCSI here? >> - Can I connect one computer to another thru SCSI? > > From what I remember, the protocol allows it - and I seem to recall > using some SGI systems that did this. Whether any modern commodity OS > supports it though, I don't know - e.g. I think as recent as three years > ago, Linux would barf if you tried to do it; the kernel code[1] just > wasn't designed with the possibility in mind. Perhaps that's "fixed" now. > > [1] I think it may have been a driver issue rather than a fundamental > problem with the core SCSI code, though - nobody coded the drivers to > expect it, because nobody out there was crazy enough to be doing it :-) That'd be a high-level driver limitation. There was a project a long time ago in which the onboard SCSI interfaces of a group of SPARCstations was used as a cluster interconnect. It used an IP-over-SCSI driver that made things easy to configure. >> - Can I connect a 80-pin device to a 50-pin controller? > > I've done it, but I'm not sure if it's part of the spec and therefore > that you can expect it to work with whatever devices you throw at it. It's part of the spec. The interfaces will negotiate the best speed and width that both endpoints can support. It's all extremely clean and scalable. (which is why it's still around) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Nov 5 13:02:24 2010 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 05 Nov 2010 11:02:24 -0700 Subject: commercial scsi target mode product Message-ID: <4CD446B0.2040301@bitsavers.org> http://www.virtualscsi.com/ From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Fri Nov 5 12:56:27 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2010 15:56:27 -0200 Subject: SCSI emulator References: <4CD37D41.6040504@neurotica.com><4CD38AD1.3070205@gmail.com><4CD425A8.2080902@bitsavers.org><3b9501cb7d02$996830e0$6600a8c0@portajara><4CD42BEC.7080100@neurotica.com><3bf701cb7d04$0d084ca0$6600a8c0@portajara><20101105161504.GA12722@Update.UU.SE><3c4601cb7d07$77464c90$6600a8c0@portajara><4CD4348D.8090202@neurotica.com><3ea901cb7d0e$4aaff210$6600a8c0@portajara> Message-ID: <3fb301cb7d13$9e0cca00$6600a8c0@portajara> >> And now I'm moving (do you believe my car with my things was robbed in >> the door of my new house? Lucky I had an alarm and it stopped the car >> 500m from my house!!! I was moving on wednesday, came back from Rio de >> Janeiro > I certainly hope you didn't miss the opportunity to beat the theif > half-dead as an example to his peers... Well...He had a 9mm on his hand, and was too far away for a direct hands-on-gun contact. Maybe the kombi and my toys wasn't so expensive...But luckly I got everything back. Living in Rio de Janeiro is a dangerous thing ;( From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Fri Nov 5 12:58:13 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2010 15:58:13 -0200 Subject: SCSI emulator References: <4CD37D41.6040504@neurotica.com><4CD38AD1.3070205@gmail.com> <4CD425A8.2080902@bitsavers.org><3b9501cb7d02$996830e0$6600a8c0@portajara><4CD42BEC.7080100@neurotica.com><3bf701cb7d04$0d084ca0$6600a8c0@portajara><20101105161504.GA12722@Update.UU.SE><3c4601cb7d07$77464c90$6600a8c0@portajara><4CD4348D.8090202@neurotica.com><3ea901cb7d0e$4aaff210$6600a8c0@portajara> Message-ID: <3fb401cb7d13$9fb793d0$6600a8c0@portajara> > Hopefully this helps illuminate the arrangement some. Thanks, it helped a lot :) I'm already looking for some SCSI docs, I feel the urge to learn more :D From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Fri Nov 5 13:01:31 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2010 16:01:31 -0200 Subject: SCSI emulator References: <4CD37D41.6040504@neurotica.com><4CD38AD1.3070205@gmail.com> <4CD425A8.2080902@bitsavers.org><3b9501cb7d02$996830e0$6600a8c0@portajara><4CD42BEC.7080100@neurotica.com><3bf701cb7d04$0d084ca0$6600a8c0@portajara> <20101105161504.GA12722@Update.UU.SE><3c4601cb7d07$77464c90$6600a8c0@portajara> <4CD4348D.8090202@neurotica.com><3ea901cb7d0e$4aaff210$6600a8c0@portajara> <4CD44442.5070109@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <3fb501cb7d13$a1698990$6600a8c0@portajara> > Ahh ok, I thought you had done some SCSI interfacing in the past. Never. That's why I'm so interested. Seems something interesting to loose some time. Who knows I can create a sd-card-to-scsi bridge? :) > Oh no!! Beat him senseless! He had a 9mm pistol on his hand, I don't think it would be smart :( > There is no strange formatting, in the way that we normally think of > "formatting". It is not possible to reach those levels of a SCSI device, > so there are no incompatibilities. The host says "give me block number > 5324985", and sometime later, the target hard drive says "hey host, here's > the data for block number 5324985 that you asked for". Zero format > compatibility issues. This is **VERY** interesting. I think I'll buy a zip drive tomorrow and one or two zip disks and begin to read/write things to see how it works. So bad I'll stay "grounded" for about 2 to 3 months before my new lab gets ready :( I'll do something even on kitchen table :D From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Nov 5 13:04:03 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 05 Nov 2010 14:04:03 -0400 Subject: Since we are talking about 1/4" tape drives In-Reply-To: <201011051753.oA5Hro7T045103@billY.EZWIND.NET> References: <4CD37608.3070407@neurotica.com> <4CD37D41.6040504@neurotica.com> <4CD38AD1.3070205@gmail.com> <4CD425A8.2080902@bitsavers.org> <3b9501cb7d02$996830e0$6600a8c0@portajara> <4CD42BEC.7080100@neurotica.com> <4CD43206.8060103@gmail.com> <4CD4341D.4000806@neurotica.com> <4CD44250.3090106@gmail.com> <201011051753.oA5Hro7T045103@billY.EZWIND.NET> Message-ID: <4CD44713.1070407@neurotica.com> On 11/5/10 1:53 PM, John Foust wrote: > The advantage would be that there are iSCSI devices and implementations > already out there. There are downloadable VMware appliances to handle it, > which makes the contemporary end a snap. Very true. And exporting a container file as an iSCSI volume can be done with a single command under Solaris: $ zfs set shareiscsi=on /path/to/file =) (building a NAS with Solaris is just about the easiest thing on Earth nowadays!) > Same for old SCSI, no? Somewhere in my junk piles I have a SCSI > pass-through board with an LCD display that showed a count of > blocks read/written. Why not more info? You want a SCSI bus analyzer. They are around; I picked one on on eBay about ten years ago for about $100. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cclist at sydex.com Fri Nov 5 13:06:36 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 05 Nov 2010 11:06:36 -0700 Subject: SCSI emulator In-Reply-To: <4CD44442.5070109@neurotica.com> References: , <3ea901cb7d0e$4aaff210$6600a8c0@portajara>, <4CD44442.5070109@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4CD3E53C.5327.68286D@cclist.sydex.com> On 5 Nov 2010 at 13:52, Dave McGuire wrote: > There is no strange formatting, in the way that we normally think of > "formatting". It is not possible to reach those levels of a SCSI > device, so there are no incompatibilities. The host says "give me > block number 5324985", and sometime later, the target hard drive says > "hey host, here's the data for block number 5324985 that you asked > for". Zero format compatibility issues. It depends a lot on the manufacturer and device, as with all things. There were some manufacturers who did all manner of bizarre things, for example, with Mode Select commands. While you'd love to think that there's a standard set of commands that everyone interprets in the same manner, it's simply not true in the real world. As regards tape drives, I found quite a variation in what was supported and not. Read-after-write capabilities varied all over the place. Some prohibit it entirely; others say that resuming reading after a filemark is legitimate and so on. Old devices may support only the short command forms; some devices may not support the entire long command set... It's pretty much like anything else. --Chuck From silent700 at gmail.com Fri Nov 5 13:06:37 2010 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2010 13:06:37 -0500 Subject: SCSI emulator In-Reply-To: <4CD4348D.8090202@neurotica.com> References: <4CD37D41.6040504@neurotica.com> <4CD38AD1.3070205@gmail.com> <4CD425A8.2080902@bitsavers.org> <3b9501cb7d02$996830e0$6600a8c0@portajara> <4CD42BEC.7080100@neurotica.com> <3bf701cb7d04$0d084ca0$6600a8c0@portajara> <20101105161504.GA12722@Update.UU.SE> <3c4601cb7d07$77464c90$6600a8c0@portajara> <4CD4348D.8090202@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Nov 5, 2010 at 11:45 AM, Dave McGuire wrote: > ?Preserving/snapshotting the contents of a SCSI drive is as simple as > hooking it to a UNIX box and running a "dd" command. For us n00bs, what's the next step? If it's a drive from a (for example) SunOS box, you hook it up to a Solaris machine, mount it, identify it as something you want, dd it and it is preserved. What if you have (as I and probably most of you do) a pile of completely unknown SCSI drives? So you hook it to your nearest *nix machine, dd it to a file, and the drive is free to head crash and become scrap. Now what do you do with that image? I'd guess the next step is to try to mount that dd'd image somewhere. Is there an easy way to ID the filesystem of a foreign drive, or is it trial-and-error at that point? -- jht From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Nov 5 13:14:16 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 05 Nov 2010 14:14:16 -0400 Subject: SCSI emulator In-Reply-To: <4CD44620.7030803@gmail.com> References: <4CD37D41.6040504@neurotica.com> <4CD38AD1.3070205@gmail.com> <4CD425A8.2080902@bitsavers.org> <3b9501cb7d02$996830e0$6600a8c0@portajara> <4CD42BEC.7080100@neurotica.com> <3bf701cb7d04$0d084ca0$6600a8c0@portajara> <20101105161504.GA12722@Update.UU.SE> <3c4601cb7d07$77464c90$6600a8c0@portajara> <4CD4348D.8090202@neurotica.com> <4CD44620.7030803@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4CD44978.8070809@neurotica.com> On 11/5/10 2:00 PM, Jules Richardson wrote: > It's a bit more murky than that (albeit a related issue) because a lot > of the bridge boards expect a vendor-specific command to tell them the > drive geometry of the attached drive, and there's no opportunity for the > system drivers to inject the necessary command. MFM- or ESDI-to-SCSI bridge boards (Adaptec ACB-4000, Emulex MD21 if memory serves) are weird to begin with, but I've not had any trouble using dd to image drives through them. (the drives they were formatted and used with) > I did have a look at adding such a facility to Linux a few years ago - > kind of "at init, consult list and throw these params at device xxx via > vendor command yyy" - but looking at the spaghetti that is the Linux > kernel source is probably what gave me so many grey hairs ;-) NetBSD has a SCSI "quirks table" in the kernel that can be used for this purpose. (and a driver structure that isn't spaghetti) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Nov 5 13:15:56 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 05 Nov 2010 14:15:56 -0400 Subject: SCSI emulator In-Reply-To: <3fb501cb7d13$a1698990$6600a8c0@portajara> References: <4CD37D41.6040504@neurotica.com><4CD38AD1.3070205@gmail.com> <4CD425A8.2080902@bitsavers.org><3b9501cb7d02$996830e0$6600a8c0@portajara><4CD42BEC.7080100@neurotica.com><3bf701cb7d04$0d084ca0$6600a8c0@portajara> <20101105161504.GA12722@Update.UU.SE><3c4601cb7d07$77464c90$6600a8c0@portajara> <4CD4348D.8090202@neurotica.com><3ea901cb7d0e$4aaff210$6600a8c0@portajara> <4CD44442.5070109@neurotica.com> <3fb501cb7d13$a1698990$6600a8c0@portajara> Message-ID: <4CD449DC.9010800@neurotica.com> On 11/5/10 2:01 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >>> Never. That's why I'm so interested. Seems something interesting to >>> loose some time. Who knows I can create a sd-card-to-scsi bridge? :) >> > Oh no!! Beat him senseless! > > He had a 9mm pistol on his hand, I don't think it would be smart :( :-( >> There is no strange formatting, in the way that we normally think of >> "formatting". It is not possible to reach those levels of a SCSI >> device, so there are no incompatibilities. The host says "give me >> block number 5324985", and sometime later, the target hard drive says >> "hey host, here's the data for block number 5324985 that you asked >> for". Zero format compatibility issues. > > This is **VERY** interesting. I think I'll buy a zip drive tomorrow and > one or two zip disks and begin to read/write things to see how it works. > So bad I'll stay "grounded" for about 2 to 3 months before my new lab > gets ready :( > > I'll do something even on kitchen table :D If memory serves, you are an AVR guy. You can easily bit-bang the SCSI protocol from a microcontroller. I think there are people here who have done it. I've looked at it and it doesn't seem like it'd be terribly difficult. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Nov 5 13:24:35 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 05 Nov 2010 14:24:35 -0400 Subject: SCSI emulator In-Reply-To: References: <4CD37D41.6040504@neurotica.com> <4CD38AD1.3070205@gmail.com> <4CD425A8.2080902@bitsavers.org> <3b9501cb7d02$996830e0$6600a8c0@portajara> <4CD42BEC.7080100@neurotica.com> <3bf701cb7d04$0d084ca0$6600a8c0@portajara> <20101105161504.GA12722@Update.UU.SE> <3c4601cb7d07$77464c90$6600a8c0@portajara> <4CD4348D.8090202@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4CD44BE3.2080101@neurotica.com> On 11/5/10 2:06 PM, Jason T wrote: > On Fri, Nov 5, 2010 at 11:45 AM, Dave McGuire wrote: >> Preserving/snapshotting the contents of a SCSI drive is as simple as >> hooking it to a UNIX box and running a "dd" command. > > For us n00bs, what's the next step? If it's a drive from a (for > example) SunOS box, you hook it up to a Solaris machine, mount it, > identify it as something you want, dd it and it is preserved. > > What if you have (as I and probably most of you do) a pile of > completely unknown SCSI drives? So you hook it to your nearest *nix > machine, dd it to a file, and the drive is free to head crash and > become scrap. Now what do you do with that image? > > I'd guess the next step is to try to mount that dd'd image somewhere. > Is there an easy way to ID the filesystem of a foreign drive, or is it > trial-and-error at that point? If I were doing it, I'd do some ASCII dumps at random offsets into the image to try to guess what type of system it was from. If I spot fragments of HP-UX startup messages and HP copyright notices, it's likely I've found a block in the middle of a kernel for an HP workstation, for example. Then I'd go find the documentation for the filesystem layout in use, and then try to figure out the next step in accessing it...be it fire up a VMware guest (for x86 OSs) running that OS point it to that image and mount it, or dig around in the garage for one of those systems, configure it, load it up, squirt the image back to a scratch drive and try to mount it, etc. Getting the data to a "safe haven" is the first important thing to accomplish when the continued operability of the drive in question is suspect. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Nov 5 12:44:20 2010 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2010 17:44:20 -0000 Subject: Backups in the modern world References: Message-ID: <00e901cb7d19$9d48a7f0$4e665f0a@user8459cef6fa> I have personally never had a hard drive fail on me at home, but a few have failed at work. Where I work we don't deal with any of the IT hardware or software, that is the responsibility of an external company. I do keep the installer file from software I have installed (and make sure they don't require files stored online which may vanish at a later date) and backup all my files regularly. Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk ----- Original Message ----- From: "Terry Stewart" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Wednesday, November 03, 2010 9:19 PM Subject: Backups in the modern world > Given the high reliability of most hard drives these days, I do wonder if > many people have forgotten that this technology can occasionally fail. At > work here (Not an IT environment), I have an automatic backup which runs > every day. A lot of my collegues don't have such a safeguard though. Some > younger ones have never experienced a hard disk failure so don't even > consider they might happen. The irony is that with nearly all work > environments using computers so extensively with less "hard copy" being kept > data loss can be catastrophic! > > I wonder how many home-based computers back up regularly? Again, I know > lots of people that don't citing reasons that it's just too hard to set up, > they have to buy extra hardware etc. Some of the address books, pictures > and home movies on those machines might be irreplaceable though. > > Although it's a lot rarer than it used to be technology still fails. In my > working life, I've had about three catastophic HD failures. In each case, > the existance on a "day before" backup mean it was an annoyance rather than > a disaster! The latest was only two years ago. > > Anyway, I'm sure I'm preaching to the converted. (-: > > Terry Stewart (Tezza) > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Tony Duell" > To: > Sent: Thursday, November 04, 2010 9:30 AM > Subject: Re: Fragility in the floppy world (was Re: TRS-80 Model II Manuals) > > > >> > >> On 2 Nov 2010 at 17:25, Ethan Dicks wrote: > >> > >> > That's the tried-and-true way of reading a diskette that's had Coke > >> > spilled on it. After the world switched to 3.5" floppies, doing these > >> > sorts of things (mostly) faded into the mists. > >> > >> Years ago, my little group using an Intel MDS-800 finished up a > >> compiler project way ahead of schedule. Management was so impressed > >> that they had T-shirts printed up and threw us a party, complete with > >> (really cheap) champagne. (I still have the T-shirt, but it doesn't > >> fit me anymore.) > >> > >> We had the source code 8" floppies on a little shrine sort of display > >> so better to appreciate what we'd done. And no, we didn't have a > >> master backup of the thing, although we might have been able to > >> recreate it with bits from various people's private copies. > > > > I am seriosulyt worried by the fact that a group of programmers who are > > capable of writing a compiler didn't realise the value of backups. I > > can't beklieve tht nobody had ever lost data before. > > > > -tony > > > > From thomas.gardner at sbcglobal.net Fri Nov 5 13:48:15 2010 From: thomas.gardner at sbcglobal.net (Tom Gardner) Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2010 11:48:15 -0700 Subject: PDP 11 Core Memory - H214 Memory Stack In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: There are several pictures of an 8 KiWord H214 Memory Stack posted on the Internet, for example, see http://www.conservatique.com/_/rsrc/1251146207239/pdp/pdp-1105/H214-c... At least one DEC manual describes the H214 as having "16 memory mats arranged in a planar pattern" but the photo referenced above (and many others) show 20 memory mats arranged in a two x ten planar pattern. Two by ten is a very strange array for a machine that has a 16 bit word or 18 bits in one with the byte parity option. Can anyone explain what is going on? Tom Note this is also posted to alt.sys.pdp11 From pontus at Update.UU.SE Fri Nov 5 13:59:21 2010 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2010 19:59:21 +0100 Subject: PDP 11 Core Memory - H214 Memory Stack In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20101105185921.GA21619@Update.UU.SE> On Fri, Nov 05, 2010 at 11:48:15AM -0700, Tom Gardner wrote: > Can anyone explain what is going on? Notice the to patches of missing core in the middle? I think that might explain it. /P From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Nov 5 14:08:18 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2010 15:08:18 -0400 Subject: SCSI emulator In-Reply-To: References: <4CD37D41.6040504@neurotica.com> <4CD38AD1.3070205@gmail.com> <4CD425A8.2080902@bitsavers.org> <3b9501cb7d02$996830e0$6600a8c0@portajara> <4CD42BEC.7080100@neurotica.com> <3bf701cb7d04$0d084ca0$6600a8c0@portajara> <20101105161504.GA12722@Update.UU.SE> <3c4601cb7d07$77464c90$6600a8c0@portajara> <4CD4348D.8090202@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On 11/5/10, Jason T wrote: > On Fri, Nov 5, 2010 at 11:45 AM, Dave McGuire wrote: >> Preserving/snapshotting the contents of a SCSI drive is as simple as >> hooking it to a UNIX box and running a "dd" command. > > For us n00bs, what's the next step? If it's a drive from a (for > example) SunOS box, you hook it up to a Solaris machine, mount it, > identify it as something you want, dd it and it is preserved. > > What if you have (as I and probably most of you do) a pile of > completely unknown SCSI drives? So you hook it to your nearest *nix > machine, dd it to a file, and the drive is free to head crash and > become scrap. Now what do you do with that image? Dump it, scan it, poke at it, etc. > I'd guess the next step is to try to mount that dd'd image somewhere. > Is there an easy way to ID the filesystem of a foreign drive, or is it > trial-and-error at that point? There's some guided trial-and-error needed, most likely. If it truly is an "unknown" filesystem, there are two tools I'd start with to investigate what the image is about... 'od' (octal dump) and 'strings' (search binary images for sequences of printable ASCII) Between the two tools, you can do a lot to wade through raw piles of disk blocks, and if you use 'dd' as a scalpel (to carve out sections to dump that start at exactly byte XXXX and are exactly YYYY blocks long), it's even convenient to follow filesystem structures to help confirm your earlier suspicions about what sort of filesystem it really is. Some environments are more flexible than others. Linux supports many recent filesystem types, but I wouldn't want to try to dig through a Solaris disk on a VMS machine. Once I knew what the filesystem of my image was, I'd see if I had a compatible machine, either real or virtual, to at least be able to browse the filesystem at a file level. For me, sometimes that's real hardware, sometimes that's simh, sometimes it's something else. It all depends on what I find (in my house, odds are a hard disk or floppy image is going to be AmigaDOS (FFS or OFS), MacOS (HFS), DOS/Windows (FAT or NTFS), RT-11, OS/8, CP/M, TRSDOS, VMS (ODS-1), SunOS 4, Solaris, Linux (ext2 or ext3), or perhaps some flavor of BSD - I'm sure others here have greater a lesser chances for those and more). -ethan From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Fri Nov 5 14:10:50 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2010 17:10:50 -0200 Subject: SCSI emulator References: <4CD37D41.6040504@neurotica.com> <4CD38AD1.3070205@gmail.com> <4CD425A8.2080902@bitsavers.org> <3b9501cb7d02$996830e0$6600a8c0@portajara> <4CD42BEC.7080100@neurotica.com> <3bf701cb7d04$0d084ca0$6600a8c0@portajara> <20101105161504.GA12722@Update.UU.SE> <3c4601cb7d07$77464c90$6600a8c0@portajara> <4CD4348D.8090202@neurotica.com> <4CD44BE3.2080101@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <409001cb7d1d$646bc8a0$6600a8c0@portajara> > Getting the data to a "safe haven" is the first important thing to > accomplish when the continued operability of the drive in question is > suspect. Do you know of ANY drive that the continued operability isn't suspect? :oP From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Fri Nov 5 14:16:06 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2010 17:16:06 -0200 Subject: SCSI emulator References: <4CD37D41.6040504@neurotica.com><4CD38AD1.3070205@gmail.com> <4CD425A8.2080902@bitsavers.org><3b9501cb7d02$996830e0$6600a8c0@portajara><4CD42BEC.7080100@neurotica.com><3bf701cb7d04$0d084ca0$6600a8c0@portajara><20101105161504.GA12722@Update.UU.SE><3c4601cb7d07$77464c90$6600a8c0@portajara><4CD4348D.8090202@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <40cb01cb7d1e$2e631f50$6600a8c0@portajara> > recent filesystem types, but I wouldn't want to try to dig through a > Solaris disk on a VMS machine. Once I knew what the filesystem of my I don't believe someone (beyond Tony) would do that ;o) > house, odds are a hard disk or floppy image is going to be AmigaDOS > (FFS or OFS), MacOS (HFS), DOS/Windows (FAT or NTFS), RT-11, OS/8, > CP/M, TRSDOS, VMS (ODS-1), SunOS 4, Solaris, Linux (ext2 or ext3), or > perhaps some flavor of BSD - I'm sure others here have greater a > lesser chances for those and more). Maybe an open-source program which could open an image file and "autodetect" it, saying which format/os/etc it is? :) From silent700 at gmail.com Fri Nov 5 14:22:50 2010 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2010 14:22:50 -0500 Subject: SCSI emulator In-Reply-To: References: <4CD37D41.6040504@neurotica.com> <4CD38AD1.3070205@gmail.com> <4CD425A8.2080902@bitsavers.org> <3b9501cb7d02$996830e0$6600a8c0@portajara> <4CD42BEC.7080100@neurotica.com> <3bf701cb7d04$0d084ca0$6600a8c0@portajara> <20101105161504.GA12722@Update.UU.SE> <3c4601cb7d07$77464c90$6600a8c0@portajara> <4CD4348D.8090202@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Nov 5, 2010 at 2:08 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > There's some guided trial-and-error needed, most likely. ?If it truly > is an "unknown" filesystem, there are two tools I'd start with to > investigate what the image is about... Thanks Ethan and Dave McG! I suspected it would turn into a bit of forensics and sleuthing...which makes it more fun, even if it's a bit more work :) I have a lot of drives laying around that are totally unknown, either because I bought/received them as spare parts or they were (foolishly) removed from a machine that is now gone. I'd bet I've got IRIX, SunOS, Solaris, Amiga, Mac, DOS, HP/UX, VMS (those are kind of easier to spot)...the list goes on. Someday I'd like to offer data recovery as a paid service. Sounds like I've got a lot of practicing to do :) From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Fri Nov 5 15:00:20 2010 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 05 Nov 2010 15:00:20 -0500 Subject: SCSI emulator In-Reply-To: <4CD44978.8070809@neurotica.com> References: <4CD37D41.6040504@neurotica.com> <4CD38AD1.3070205@gmail.com> <4CD425A8.2080902@bitsavers.org> <3b9501cb7d02$996830e0$6600a8c0@portajara> <4CD42BEC.7080100@neurotica.com> <3bf701cb7d04$0d084ca0$6600a8c0@portajara> <20101105161504.GA12722@Update.UU.SE> <3c4601cb7d07$77464c90$6600a8c0@portajara> <4CD4348D.8090202@neurotica.com> <4CD44620.7030803@gmail.com> <4CD44978.8070809@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4CD46254.4050600@gmail.com> Dave McGuire wrote: > On 11/5/10 2:00 PM, Jules Richardson wrote: >> It's a bit more murky than that (albeit a related issue) because a lot >> of the bridge boards expect a vendor-specific command to tell them the >> drive geometry of the attached drive, and there's no opportunity for the >> system drivers to inject the necessary command. > > MFM- or ESDI-to-SCSI bridge boards (Adaptec ACB-4000, Emulex MD21 if > memory serves) are weird to begin with, but I've not had any trouble > using dd to image drives through them. (the drives they were formatted > and used with) I think the Adaptec was one of the most sane boards out there - IIRC it stores the drive geometry on block zero of the drive at format time, then at power-on fetches that block back and initialises itself with the loaded geometry. I can't remember if it just hides the first block from the user, or hides the whole track. I think the board responds to Inquiry, too (although it just returns "ACB 4000" rather than anything to do with the geometry of the attached drives) I've not played with the Emulex boards - I think the only ones I have are tape bridges rather than disk. The Xebec and Omti boards seemed reliable, but their SCSI implementations were a little lacking (one of them I think had the option of a user-supplied ROM with the expected disk geometry encoded into it, but it still wasn't "SCSI enough" to work with a modern system) >> I did have a look at adding such a facility to Linux a few years ago - >> kind of "at init, consult list and throw these params at device xxx via >> vendor command yyy" - but looking at the spaghetti that is the Linux >> kernel source is probably what gave me so many grey hairs ;-) > > NetBSD has a SCSI "quirks table" in the kernel that can be used for > this purpose. (and a driver structure that isn't spaghetti) Hmm, that's good to know. I'm hoping to get all my stuff moved here toward the start of next year, so maybe I can find a spare system and have a mess around with that then... cheers Jules From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri Nov 5 14:41:45 2010 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2010 12:41:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCSI emulator In-Reply-To: <3fb301cb7d13$9e0cca00$6600a8c0@portajara> References: <4CD37D41.6040504@neurotica.com><4CD38AD1.3070205@gmail.com><4CD425A8.2080902@bitsavers.org><3b9501cb7d02$996830e0$6600a8c0@portajara><4CD42BEC.7080100@neurotica.com><3bf701cb7d04$0d084ca0$6600a8c0@portajara><20101105161504.GA12722@Update.UU.SE><3c4601cb7d07$77464c90$6600a8c0@portajara><4CD4348D.8090202@neurotica.com><3ea901cb7d0e$4aaff210$6600a8c0@portajara> <3fb301cb7d13$9e0cca00$6600a8c0@portajara> Message-ID: On Fri, 5 Nov 2010, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >>> And now I'm moving (do you believe my car with my things was robbed in the >>> door of my new house? Lucky I had an alarm and it stopped the car 500m >>> from my house!!! I was moving on wednesday, came back from Rio de Janeiro >> I certainly hope you didn't miss the opportunity to beat the theif >> half-dead as an example to his peers... > > Well...He had a 9mm on his hand, and was too far away for a direct > hands-on-gun contact. Maybe the kombi and my toys wasn't so expensive...But > luckly I got everything back. > > Living in Rio de Janeiro is a dangerous thing ;( Ye gods man. Get yourself a Desert Eagle .50 :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Fri Nov 5 15:09:40 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2010 18:09:40 -0200 Subject: SCSI emulator References: <4CD37D41.6040504@neurotica.com><4CD38AD1.3070205@gmail.com><4CD425A8.2080902@bitsavers.org><3b9501cb7d02$996830e0$6600a8c0@portajara><4CD42BEC.7080100@neurotica.com><3bf701cb7d04$0d084ca0$6600a8c0@portajara><20101105161504.GA12722@Update.UU.SE><3c4601cb7d07$77464c90$6600a8c0@portajara><4CD4348D.8090202@neurotica.com><3ea901cb7d0e$4aaff210$6600a8c0@portajara><3fb301cb7d13$9e0cca00$6600a8c0@portajara> Message-ID: <41a201cb7d25$6f801cc0$6600a8c0@portajara> >> Living in Rio de Janeiro is a dangerous thing ;( > Ye gods man. Get yourself a Desert Eagle .50 :) I had it some years before. Although a good gun for killing elephants, it is not that much pratical for street combat. Too weighty and expensive ammo. I'd prefer a Glock. It is nice to have it well concealed and being lightweight. From IanK at vulcan.com Fri Nov 5 15:36:32 2010 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2010 13:36:32 -0700 Subject: SCSI emulator In-Reply-To: <41a201cb7d25$6f801cc0$6600a8c0@portajara> References: <4CD37D41.6040504@neurotica.com><4CD38AD1.3070205@gmail.com><4CD425A8.2080902@bitsavers.org><3b9501cb7d02$996830e0$6600a8c0@portajara><4CD42BEC.7080100@neurotica.com><3bf701cb7d04$0d084ca0$6600a8c0@portajara><20101105161504.GA12722@Update.UU.SE><3c4601cb7d07$77464c90$6600a8c0@portajara><4CD4348D.8090202@neurotica.com><3ea901cb7d0e$4aaff210$6600a8c0@portajara><3fb301cb7d13$9e0cca00$6600a8c0@portajara> <41a201cb7d25$6f801cc0$6600a8c0@portajara> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Alexandre Souza - Listas > Sent: Friday, November 05, 2010 1:10 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: SCSI emulator > > >> Living in Rio de Janeiro is a dangerous thing ;( > > Ye gods man. Get yourself a Desert Eagle .50 :) > > I had it some years before. Although a good gun for killing > elephants, > it is not that much pratical for street combat. Too weighty and > expensive > ammo. I'd prefer a Glock. It is nice to have it well concealed and > being > lightweight. > Personally I've always felt Glocks were overrated. For casual carry I prefer a small Beretta, and if I can get away with it (in terms of concealment) a Sig-Sauer. From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri Nov 5 15:19:38 2010 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2010 13:19:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCSI emulator In-Reply-To: <41a201cb7d25$6f801cc0$6600a8c0@portajara> References: <4CD37D41.6040504@neurotica.com><4CD38AD1.3070205@gmail.com><4CD425A8.2080902@bitsavers.org><3b9501cb7d02$996830e0$6600a8c0@portajara><4CD42BEC.7080100@neurotica.com><3bf701cb7d04$0d084ca0$6600a8c0@portajara><20101105161504.GA12722@Update.UU.SE><3c4601cb7d07$77464c90$6600a8c0@portajara><4CD4348D.8090202@neurotica.com><3ea901cb7d0e$4aaff210$6600a8c0@portajara><3fb301cb7d13$9e0cca00$6600a8c0@portajara> <41a201cb7d25$6f801cc0$6600a8c0@portajara> Message-ID: On Fri, 5 Nov 2010, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >>> Living in Rio de Janeiro is a dangerous thing ;( >> Ye gods man. Get yourself a Desert Eagle .50 :) > > I had it some years before. Although a good gun for killing elephants, it > is not that much pratical for street combat. Too weighty and expensive ammo. > I'd prefer a Glock. It is nice to have it well concealed and being > lightweight. > Might I suggest an MP5K? :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Fri Nov 5 15:57:04 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2010 18:57:04 -0200 Subject: SCSI emulator References: <4CD37D41.6040504@neurotica.com><4CD38AD1.3070205@gmail.com><4CD425A8.2080902@bitsavers.org><3b9501cb7d02$996830e0$6600a8c0@portajara><4CD42BEC.7080100@neurotica.com><3bf701cb7d04$0d084ca0$6600a8c0@portajara><20101105161504.GA12722@Update.UU.SE><3c4601cb7d07$77464c90$6600a8c0@portajara><4CD4348D.8090202@neurotica.com><3ea901cb7d0e$4aaff210$6600a8c0@portajara><3fb301cb7d13$9e0cca00$6600a8c0@portajara><41a201cb7d25$6f801cc0$6600a8c0@portajara> Message-ID: <41e501cb7d2c$0747cc50$6600a8c0@portajara> > Might I suggest an MP5K? :) I'd love to have a BFG9600 :) From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Fri Nov 5 16:01:13 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2010 19:01:13 -0200 Subject: SCSI emulator References: <4CD37D41.6040504@neurotica.com><4CD38AD1.3070205@gmail.com><4CD425A8.2080902@bitsavers.org><3b9501cb7d02$996830e0$6600a8c0@portajara><4CD42BEC.7080100@neurotica.com><3bf701cb7d04$0d084ca0$6600a8c0@portajara><20101105161504.GA12722@Update.UU.SE><3c4601cb7d07$77464c90$6600a8c0@portajara><4CD4348D.8090202@neurotica.com><3ea901cb7d0e$4aaff210$6600a8c0@portajara><3fb301cb7d13$9e0cca00$6600a8c0@portajara><41a201cb7d25$6f801cc0$6600a8c0@portajara> Message-ID: <41f801cb7d2d$1aac2240$6600a8c0@portajara> http://micha.freeshell.org/ramdisk/index.php Eh... :oO Almost everything done :) From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Nov 5 16:05:24 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2010 17:05:24 -0400 Subject: MFM and ESDI SCSI bridge boards (was Re: SCSI emulator) Message-ID: On 11/5/10, Jules Richardson wrote: > Dave McGuire wrote: >> On 11/5/10 2:00 PM, Jules Richardson wrote: >>> It's a bit more murky than that (albeit a related issue) because a lot >>> of the bridge boards expect a vendor-specific command to tell them the >>> drive geometry of the attached drive... >> >> MFM- or ESDI-to-SCSI bridge boards (Adaptec ACB-4000, Emulex MD21 if >> memory serves) are weird to begin with... > > I think the Adaptec was one of the most sane boards out there I do have some experience with a couple of them, primarily the ACB-4000 > IIRC it stores > the drive geometry on block zero of the drive at format time, then at > power-on fetches that block back and initialises itself with the loaded geometry. That sounds somewhat familiar to me, but I wouldn't have been able to have said that's what it did without looking it up first. > I can't remember if it just hides the first block from the user, or hides the > whole track. I really can't remember that detail - been way too long, but if I had to guess, I'd guess "block" since I have a fuzzy memory about some detail about moving, say, an ST225 on and off an ACB-4000 and a different kind of controller (an XT MFM card most likely, possibly a WD WX-1 or Everex clone). > I think the board responds to Inquiry, too (although it just returns "ACB > 4000" rather than anything to do with the geometry of the attached drives) That also sounds familiar (having played at the low-level back in my early Amiga days). > I've not played with the Emulex boards - I think the only ones I have are > tape bridges rather than disk. I have a couple of the Emulex bridging boards from the Sun-3/early Sun-4 days, but I never had to set them up - they were black (beige, really ;-) boxes to me. I just stuck them on a Sun box and don't remember any special fiddling. > The Xebec and Omti boards seemed reliable, but their SCSI implementations > were > a little lacking (one of them I think had the option of a user-supplied ROM > with the expected disk geometry encoded into it, but it still wasn't "SCSI > enough" to work with a modern system) I think I tried to fiddle with an Omti board once but didn't achieve enough success to use it. One reason I tried was it was a combo hard-drive/floppy drive model. It would have been handy, but alas no. It's likely I was running into one of those "almost-SCSI" problems and lacked sufficient documentation. Since I moved from PETs and C-64s and small DEC machines first to Amigas and Macs, then much later to PCs, I was very happy when embedded SCSI drives displaced all the Adaptec and Emulex and Xebec and Omti boards - much easier to set up and move from environment to environment. -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Nov 5 16:07:10 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2010 17:07:10 -0400 Subject: SCSI emulator In-Reply-To: <41e501cb7d2c$0747cc50$6600a8c0@portajara> References: <4CD37D41.6040504@neurotica.com> <4CD38AD1.3070205@gmail.com> <4CD425A8.2080902@bitsavers.org> <3b9501cb7d02$996830e0$6600a8c0@portajara> <4CD42BEC.7080100@neurotica.com> <3bf701cb7d04$0d084ca0$6600a8c0@portajara> <20101105161504.GA12722@Update.UU.SE> <3c4601cb7d07$77464c90$6600a8c0@portajara> <4CD4348D.8090202@neurotica.com> <3ea901cb7d0e$4aaff210$6600a8c0@portajara> <3fb301cb7d13$9e0cca00$6600a8c0@portajara> <41a201cb7d25$6f801cc0$6600a8c0@portajara> <41e501cb7d2c$0747cc50$6600a8c0@portajara> Message-ID: On 11/5/10, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >> Might I suggest an MP5K? :) > > I'd love to have a BFG9600 :) Is that the Telebit Trailblazer-compatible version of the BFG-9000? ;-) (not that anyone ever really called it that, but you could probably slap a "BFM-9600" label on the Trailblazer and someone would get the joke). -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Nov 5 16:13:30 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2010 17:13:30 -0400 Subject: SCSI emulator In-Reply-To: <41f801cb7d2d$1aac2240$6600a8c0@portajara> References: <4CD37D41.6040504@neurotica.com> <4CD38AD1.3070205@gmail.com> <4CD425A8.2080902@bitsavers.org> <3b9501cb7d02$996830e0$6600a8c0@portajara> <4CD42BEC.7080100@neurotica.com> <3bf701cb7d04$0d084ca0$6600a8c0@portajara> <20101105161504.GA12722@Update.UU.SE> <3c4601cb7d07$77464c90$6600a8c0@portajara> <4CD4348D.8090202@neurotica.com> <3ea901cb7d0e$4aaff210$6600a8c0@portajara> <3fb301cb7d13$9e0cca00$6600a8c0@portajara> <41a201cb7d25$6f801cc0$6600a8c0@portajara> <41f801cb7d2d$1aac2240$6600a8c0@portajara> Message-ID: On 11/5/10, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > > http://micha.freeshell.org/ramdisk/index.php > > Eh... :oO Almost everything done :) That's pretty neat - a bit low on the capacity side, but it's cool to watch it log SCSI activity. Obviously a redesign of the storage-end of it wouldn't be a big deal. Could go FLASH, could go SDRAM. Could even do what some 3rd-party DEC drive emulators did - copy non-volatile to RAM at boot time, then RAM back to non-volatile when powering down. -ethan From cclist at sydex.com Fri Nov 5 16:19:36 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 05 Nov 2010 14:19:36 -0700 Subject: MFM and ESDI SCSI bridge boards (was Re: SCSI emulator) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CD41278.19349.118DACD@cclist.sydex.com> On 5 Nov 2010 at 17:05, Ethan Dicks wrote: > Since I moved from PETs and C-64s and small DEC machines first to > Amigas and Macs, then much later to PCs, I was very happy when > embedded SCSI drives displaced all the Adaptec and Emulex and Xebec > and Omti boards - much easier to set up and move from environment to > environment. Years ago, I worked out an MFM-RLL-to-SCSI-to-ACSI adapter for the Atari 520 ST. Worked pretty well, but the command set for the OMTI was pretty sparse. I seem to recall that there was no IDENTIFY command and that for a host to obtain the drive geometry (not capacity, but CHS) it had to be read from the OMTI adapter's buffer right after bootup. I've got the documentation for the adapter somewhere. --Chuck From shumaker at att.net Fri Nov 5 16:22:16 2010 From: shumaker at att.net (steve shumaker) Date: Fri, 05 Nov 2010 14:22:16 -0700 Subject: Kaypro "Profile" Magazines free+postage from 95006 Message-ID: <4CD47588.4050104@att.net> available for free + postage from 95006: several partial years of the KayPro focus magazine "Profiles": Dec/Jan 85 ?Dec 85 (full year) Jan-Mar 86; Jul 86 Jun ?Jul 87; Sep ? Dec 87 Jan ? May 88 Note that these issues are all available as scanned docs (or will be shortly) on Gene Buckle's site at www.retroarchive.org. But if you gotta have an original.... I figured I'd offer them here before they get recycled. mags are in good shape. steve From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Fri Nov 5 16:21:01 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2010 19:21:01 -0200 Subject: SCSI emulator References: <4CD37D41.6040504@neurotica.com><4CD38AD1.3070205@gmail.com> <4CD425A8.2080902@bitsavers.org><3b9501cb7d02$996830e0$6600a8c0@portajara><4CD42BEC.7080100@neurotica.com><3bf701cb7d04$0d084ca0$6600a8c0@portajara><20101105161504.GA12722@Update.UU.SE><3c4601cb7d07$77464c90$6600a8c0@portajara><4CD4348D.8090202@neurotica.com><3ea901cb7d0e$4aaff210$6600a8c0@portajara><3fb301cb7d13$9e0cca00$6600a8c0@portajara><41a201cb7d25$6f801cc0$6600a8c0@portajara><41f801cb7d2d$1aac2240$6600a8c0@portajara> Message-ID: <421a01cb7d30$19433c10$6600a8c0@portajara> >> http://micha.freeshell.org/ramdisk/index.php >> Eh... :oO Almost everything done :) > That's pretty neat - a bit low on the capacity side, but it's cool to > watch it log SCSI activity. > Obviously a redesign of the storage-end of it wouldn't be a big deal. > Could go FLASH, could go SDRAM. Could even do what some 3rd-party DEC > drive emulators did - copy non-volatile to RAM at boot time, then RAM > back to non-volatile when powering down. Very interesting device, I think that can be used as a base for a SD-based device (and why not, multivolume/multicard SD device...I wonder what is the problem with having 4 or 8 SD cards togheter as one big SCSI volume. With cheap 8GB and 16GB cards, you could have 64/128GB SCSI subsystems being used even as backup devices - each card could be auto-identified and loaded in the correct order There are lots of possibilities with this link! ;oD From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Nov 5 16:26:31 2010 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Fri, 05 Nov 2010 16:26:31 -0500 Subject: Since we are talking about 1/4" tape drives In-Reply-To: <4CD44713.1070407@neurotica.com> References: <4CD37608.3070407@neurotica.com> <4CD37D41.6040504@neurotica.com> <4CD38AD1.3070205@gmail.com> <4CD425A8.2080902@bitsavers.org> <3b9501cb7d02$996830e0$6600a8c0@portajara> <4CD42BEC.7080100@neurotica.com> <4CD43206.8060103@gmail.com> <4CD4341D.4000806@neurotica.com> <4CD44250.3090106@gmail.com> <201011051753.oA5Hro7T045103@billY.EZWIND.NET> <4CD44713.1070407@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <201011052130.oA5LUlt4054412@billY.EZWIND.NET> At 01:04 PM 11/5/2010, Dave McGuire wrote: > You want a SCSI bus analyzer. They are around; I picked one on on eBay about ten years ago for about $100. Sure, I'd like one of those, too. What exists for IDE, SATA and USB-IDE/SATA? - John From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri Nov 5 16:15:42 2010 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2010 14:15:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Kaypro "Profile" Magazines free+postage from 95006 In-Reply-To: <4CD47588.4050104@att.net> References: <4CD47588.4050104@att.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 5 Nov 2010, steve shumaker wrote: > available for free + postage from 95006: > > several partial years of the KayPro focus magazine "Profiles": > > Dec/Jan 85 ?Dec 85 (full year) > > Jan-Mar 86; Jul 86 > > Jun ?Jul 87; Sep ? Dec 87 > > Jan ? May 88 > > Note that these issues are all available as scanned docs (or will be shortly) > on Gene Buckle's site at www.retroarchive.org. But if you gotta have an > original.... > I figured I'd offer them here before they get recycled. mags are in good > shape. > These issues will get posted this weekend: profiles_v2n10.pdf profiles_v2n4.pdf profiles_v2n5.pdf profiles_v2n6.pdf profiles_v2n7.pdf profiles_v3n1.pdf profiles_v3n10.pdf profiles_v3n11.pdf profiles_v3n2.pdf profiles_v3n3.pdf profiles_v3n4.pdf profiles_v3n5.pdf profiles_v3n6.pdf profiles_v3n7.pdf profiles_v3n8.pdf profiles_v3n9.pdf profiles_v4n1.pdf profiles_v4n3.pdf profiles_v4n4.pdf profiles_v4n5.pdf profiles_v4n6.pdf profiles_v4n7.pdf profiles_v4n8.pdf profiles_v2n8.pdf Roughly 2GB of data. Each one is anywhere from 65MB to 98MB in size. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From shumaker at att.net Fri Nov 5 16:36:51 2010 From: shumaker at att.net (steve shumaker) Date: Fri, 05 Nov 2010 14:36:51 -0700 Subject: Tek 4051 in Austin In-Reply-To: References: <4CD37D41.6040504@neurotica.com><4CD38AD1.3070205@gmail.com><4CD425A8.2080902@bitsavers.org><3b9501cb7d02$996830e0$6600a8c0@portajara><4CD42BEC.7080100@neurotica.com><3bf701cb7d04$0d084ca0$6600a8c0@portajara><20101105161504.GA12722@Update.UU.SE><3c4601cb7d07$77464c90$6600a8c0@portajara><4CD4348D.8090202@neurotica.com><3ea901cb7d0e$4aaff210$6600a8c0@portajara> <3fb301cb7d13$9e0cca00$6600a8c0@portajara> Message-ID: <4CD478F3.1080501@att.net> Tektronix 4051 functioning system Austin C/L #2043597225 looks in fair shape. supposedly working... wants $150 cash and pick up only steve From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Nov 5 16:38:12 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 05 Nov 2010 17:38:12 -0400 Subject: Since we are talking about 1/4" tape drives In-Reply-To: <201011052130.oA5LUlt4054412@billY.EZWIND.NET> References: <4CD37608.3070407@neurotica.com> <4CD37D41.6040504@neurotica.com> <4CD38AD1.3070205@gmail.com> <4CD425A8.2080902@bitsavers.org> <3b9501cb7d02$996830e0$6600a8c0@portajara> <4CD42BEC.7080100@neurotica.com> <4CD43206.8060103@gmail.com> <4CD4341D.4000806@neurotica.com> <4CD44250.3090106@gmail.com> <201011051753.oA5Hro7T045103@billY.EZWIND.NET> <4CD44713.1070407@neurotica.com> <201011052130.oA5LUlt4054412@billY.EZWIND.NET> Message-ID: <4CD47944.2030600@neurotica.com> On 11/5/10 5:26 PM, John Foust wrote: >> You want a SCSI bus analyzer. They are around; I picked one on on eBay about ten years ago for about $100. > > Sure, I'd like one of those, too. What exists for IDE, SATA and USB-IDE/SATA? I doubt IDE, but I've seen USB, SATA, and SCSI bus analyzers. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Fri Nov 5 16:43:27 2010 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 05 Nov 2010 16:43:27 -0500 Subject: MFM and ESDI SCSI bridge boards (was Re: SCSI emulator) In-Reply-To: <4CD41278.19349.118DACD@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4CD41278.19349.118DACD@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4CD47A7F.6070309@gmail.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 5 Nov 2010 at 17:05, Ethan Dicks wrote: > >> Since I moved from PETs and C-64s and small DEC machines first to >> Amigas and Macs, then much later to PCs, I was very happy when >> embedded SCSI drives displaced all the Adaptec and Emulex and Xebec >> and Omti boards - much easier to set up and move from environment to >> environment. > > Years ago, I worked out an MFM-RLL-to-SCSI-to-ACSI adapter for the > Atari 520 ST. Worked pretty well, but the command set for the OMTI > was pretty sparse. I seem to recall that there was no IDENTIFY > command and that for a host to obtain the drive geometry (not > capacity, but CHS) it had to be read from the OMTI adapter's buffer > right after bootup. Yes, I *think* the OMTI was pretty basic, but was at least more-or-less SCSI. I think the Xebec boards were SASI, and don't even work at the low level against a modern SCSI board. > I've got the documentation for the adapter somewhere. Yes, me too. I think I have ones for various board (disk and tape) from Adaptec, Xebec, OMTI and Emulex, too. ISTR the Xebec docs come with a nice little suggested Z80 interface schematic in the back of the manual - those were the days :-) cheers Jules From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Fri Nov 5 16:45:53 2010 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 05 Nov 2010 16:45:53 -0500 Subject: SCSI emulator In-Reply-To: <40cb01cb7d1e$2e631f50$6600a8c0@portajara> References: <4CD37D41.6040504@neurotica.com><4CD38AD1.3070205@gmail.com> <4CD425A8.2080902@bitsavers.org><3b9501cb7d02$996830e0$6600a8c0@portajara><4CD42BEC.7080100@neurotica.com><3bf701cb7d04$0d084ca0$6600a8c0@portajara><20101105161504.GA12722@Update.UU.SE><3c4601cb7d07$77464c90$6600a8c0@portajara><4CD4348D.8090202@neurotica.com> <40cb01cb7d1e$2e631f50$6600a8c0@portajara> Message-ID: <4CD47B11.20403@gmail.com> Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >> recent filesystem types, but I wouldn't want to try to dig through a >> Solaris disk on a VMS machine. Once I knew what the filesystem of my > > I don't believe someone (beyond Tony) would do that ;o) > >> house, odds are a hard disk or floppy image is going to be AmigaDOS >> (FFS or OFS), MacOS (HFS), DOS/Windows (FAT or NTFS), RT-11, OS/8, >> CP/M, TRSDOS, VMS (ODS-1), SunOS 4, Solaris, Linux (ext2 or ext3), or >> perhaps some flavor of BSD - I'm sure others here have greater a >> lesser chances for those and more). > > Maybe an open-source program which could open an image file and > "autodetect" it, saying which format/os/etc it is? :) I've thought about that in the past for floppy formats - but there are just too many, and too many that are close in implementation, and too many others that always need a little assistance in the decoding. In terms of hard disks, I hate to think how many SysV-type variants there are around :-) From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Fri Nov 5 18:09:32 2010 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2010 15:09:32 -0800 Subject: Virtual memory In-Reply-To: <4CD1BC38.6060306@softjar.se> References: <4CD1BC38.6060306@softjar.se> Message-ID: <1991486f4297558cad69e92377d717d6@cs.ubc.ca> Flogging a dead horse perhaps, as I believe the discussion is simply a matter of differing definitions of the phrase "virtual memory", but let's try a different approach: Suppose we have a machine which at the instruction level provides 32-bit addresses, that is, it presents a 32-bit address space (4GB) to the user. However, there is only 1 MB of physical RAM memory in the machine. Without trying to go through the whole history of OS development (leaving out things such as overlays, shared libs, etc.), and without accounting for memory required by the kernel/OS for simplicity, consider several scenarios: - 1. User addresses map directly to physical addresses. User address 0 is physical address 0. The user address space is obviously limited to 1MB or less of memory and the user will be aware of such if an attempt to address beyond that is made. - 2. We add an MMU to map addresses. Multiple user address spaces may exist and can be mapped to different areas in physical memory. User address 0 may or may not ref physical address 0. A user is still aware of a limited address space dictated by the 1MB of physical memory. The total of the user address spaces cannot exceed 1MB. - 3. We add swapping-to-disk. The system as a whole is no longer limited to 1MB of memory, there may be multiple user address spaces totalling more than 1MB of memory. Each user however, is still limited to a max of 1MB of address space, i.e. each user is still aware of the limited physical memory. - 4. We add address-faulting, demand-paging - whatever one wants to call it. The user address space is no longer limited by physical memory. The user can hit any address in their 32-bit space and (magically) find a valid memory location there. More physical memory can be added (or removed) 'underneath' the user(s) without their awareness. By the nomenclature I grew up with or suffer under, the term "virtual memory" only applies in scenario 4, although "virtual addresses" could be said to have been introduced in scenario 2. Or, scenario 4 was my understanding of the *commonly-agreed-upon application* of the phrase "virtual memory", although I would not argue that in a very general sense it may be applied to scenario 2 or 3. From swtpc6800 at comcast.net Fri Nov 5 17:32:02 2010 From: swtpc6800 at comcast.net (Michael Holley) Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2010 22:32:02 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Tek 4051 in Austin In-Reply-To: <271082473.581026.1288996178870.JavaMail.root@sz0109a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <2061622792.581106.1288996322243.JavaMail.root@sz0109a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> The TEK 4051 is a Graphics Terminal with BASIC in ROM, It used the Motorola 6800 microprocessor. I did a Wikipedia article on the MC6800 and illustrated it with several old advertisements including the first M6800 ad and a Tektronix 4051 ad. Here is the article http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motorola_6800 And here is the TEK 4051 ad. http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Tektronix_4051_ad_April_1976.jpg Michael Holley -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of steve shumaker Sent: Friday, November 05, 2010 2:37 PM To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Tek 4051 in Austin Tektronix 4051 functioning system??? Austin C/L #2043597225 looks in fair shape.? supposedly working...?? wants $150 cash and? pick up only steve From cclist at sydex.com Fri Nov 5 17:46:21 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 05 Nov 2010 15:46:21 -0700 Subject: Virtual memory In-Reply-To: <1991486f4297558cad69e92377d717d6@cs.ubc.ca> References: , <4CD1BC38.6060306@softjar.se>, <1991486f4297558cad69e92377d717d6@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <4CD426CD.21016.168488B@cclist.sydex.com> On 5 Nov 2010 at 15:09, Brent Hilpert wrote: > By the nomenclature I grew up with or suffer under, the term "virtual > memory" only applies in scenario 4, although "virtual addresses" could > be said to have been introduced in scenario 2. My original definition was that "virtual memory" was the ability of a system (hardware, software, whatever) to fool a program into thinking that there was more memory present than was physically the case. Johnny (and please forgive me if I got this wrong) tied it into the ability to present each user with a address space, such that two users could use the same address space, but have different data. Key was the claim that a system with more physical memory than the user could directly address still qualified as virtual memory. I don't tie virtual memory into paging or even to multi-tasking or multi-user, although I'll concede that paging is a way (albeit rather simple-minded) to implement it. The Burroughs B5000 didn't employ paging and yet I think few would argue that it did not implement virtual memory (and quite possibly the earliest commercial use of it). --Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Nov 5 16:12:16 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2010 21:12:16 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Bill's PDP-11/34A In-Reply-To: <4CD1C346.3040603@softjar.se> from "Johnny Billquist" at Nov 3, 10 09:17:10 pm Message-ID: > > Do you have packs for your RL01 drives? Hopefully the packs were > > removed and the heads locked for transport. > > Good point. There is a transport lock for RL drivers, that should be in > place when transported, and which should be remembered to be moved out > of the way when used. Don't worry too much if they weren't locked. The RL postioner, being a motor +_ pulley thing, not a voice coil, has considerably friction and the heads don't tent to move under shipping vibration. On the otehr hand, I would check it before powering up. Meove the acess cover at the tope rear, then take off the disk pack cover (the latching arms will sping backwrds, don't worry about it. If there is no pack in place, check the heads are fully retraced. If there is a pack in place, don't try to remvoe it (just in case the heads have moved forwards, instead lift out the R/W module (middle of the chassis) and look at the heads under it. If they are fully retraced fine, take the pack out, If not, well, I gues you have to retract them by hand and hope you do no more damage. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Nov 5 16:07:32 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2010 21:07:32 +0000 (GMT) Subject: PDP-11 firsts? In-Reply-To: <4CD1B9D8.5030309@softjar.se> from "Johnny Billquist" at Nov 3, 10 08:36:56 pm Message-ID: > >>> > > The Philips P800 series has the PC as a general register (register 0). > >> > > >> > Could you use it like any other register? > > There were some restrictions. I don't think you could shift it (at least > > ont on the P850). But for many instructions it was just another register. > > Cool. So you could add to it, index by it, and so on? I think so. I can't find my programemrs pocekt guide fo the machine at the momnet. But I am pretty sure that register 0 could often be used like any other register. There is at least one oddity. There are no autoicrement/autodecrement adressing modes on the P800s. However, in some cases, if you use the PC in some instructions it is autoincrements. For example the 'immediate' addrtessign mode isessentialy a (PC) operation (i.e. take the word pointed to by register 0) and has that bit pattern. But for obvious reaosns the PC is autoincrements then. > > I guess the P800 wasn't totally ortogonal but it was a lot more > > orthogonal than many other machines. > > Indeed sounds nice. When did the machine appear? My P850 CPU service manual is copyright 1972, which alas puts it after the PDP11, but I thoguht the series was around a bit before that. > > >>> > > What do you mean by condition codes here? > >> > > >> > The four low bits of PSW. > > Err... I don;t think that's helpful. Quite a lot of machines with a > > status register have a 'low 4 bits' of it:-). But that doens't make them > > condition codes. Similarly uf you hapopen to implement the same > > functionality using other bits of a status registers, doesn't that make > > them condition codes? > > > > What I was asking was what fucntionality do you require of these > > condtiion codes other than there being conditional jumps on carry, zero, etc? > > Sorry. I was just being lazy, and trying to explain condition codes by > referring to what they are on the PDP-11. > > To try and be more specific then: condition codes are bits that are > set/reset as a result of operations performed by the processed, and upon > which you can the make conditional branches/jumps on. Now the P800 has a very odd way of doing this. There is a 2 bit status registers. It is set differnet ways according to the results of some instructiuos (for example, an arithmetic instruciton will set it one way if the result is 0, a differnet way if there's a carry out, etc). I/O operations set it one way for device ready, another for certain errors, etc. The condtional branches have a 3-bit condition field. You can branch on the status beits being any particualr value (00, 01, 10, 11), them not being one of 3 values 9I forget which one is omitted) or 'always' -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Nov 5 17:05:31 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2010 22:05:31 +0000 (GMT) Subject: DiscFerret: First working hardware, firmware and microcode! In-Reply-To: <20101104145732.B20554@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Nov 4, 10 03:04:06 pm Message-ID: > > > > 20 years would have to include "RLL" and ESDI (RLL has same cabling as > > > ST412, but different encoding and data-rates? , ESDI cabling looks the > > On Thu, 4 Nov 2010, Tony Duell wrote: > > Eh? RLL is a date encoding scheme, ST412 is a de-facto stadnard for the > > signals on the drive interface connectors. They are not the same thing at > > all. > > Thanks. I got sloppy. This is one situation where I should have said A lot of people do, and most of the time it doesn't matter (even I once asked for an 'MFM' drive in a second-hand PC shop years ago. I knew it was wrong, but I also knew that's what they were often called by PC types). But in this case, when we're talking aobut using the drive with essentially a non-stnadard controller, I think it helps to be prceise. > "MFM", or clarified the comparison as "ST412 MFM", since I was trying to > say that the RLL drives were cabled the same, but the data transfer rates > and encoding may be different. IIRC, the pulse rate at the interface connector is much the same, it's just a more efficient encoding scheme, using more of the possible patterns. > > > > ESDI cabling looks the same but has signal differences) > > It's very different... For one thing the data separator is in the drive > > (meaning the encoding method doesn't matter to the end user). FOr > > another, head position, etc, is done by sending a command bit-serially to > > the drive. > > What I was trying to convey (albeit poorly worded), is that the CABLES > used for ESDI are the same as the CABLES used for ST412 (from a > purchasing viewpoint), but the interface is different. Even the cambles are not always the same. ST412 uses a 1-of-n drive select scheme, like a floppy drive. Which means you can (and IBM did) use a cable with a twist in it to link 2 drives, indentically jumpered, to the controller (It's not the same twist as the floppy cable). ESDI uses a 3-bit binary select scheme (IIRC 0 means 'no drive selected'), and a twisted cable si not normally useful. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Nov 5 17:35:14 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2010 22:35:14 +0000 (GMT) Subject: DiscFerret: First working hardware, firmware and microcode! In-Reply-To: <4CD2D253.32256.19AF6B9@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Nov 4, 10 03:33:39 pm Message-ID: > I'd be mildly surprised if some enterprising firm didn't try to > record a frame of analog video at 60 fps on an ST412 track. One rev > per frame... I am told that the action replays on TV were onc erecorded on a special hard idsk. One frame per track, fixed heads (so almost instant moving from one frame to the next) and analogue FM recording. One of the companies that made them (PPL I think) also sold it as a PDP11 video dispaly peripheral. The special hard disk and a rack of boards (FM modulato/demodulator, sync, etc). Connected via a DR11-B interace. I have one. -tnny From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Nov 5 17:08:29 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2010 22:08:29 +0000 (GMT) Subject: HP9845 design article in EDN In-Reply-To: <4CD2CB8D.31895.180839B@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Nov 4, 10 03:04:45 pm Message-ID: > My take was that it was an anecdote by one of the people associated > with the HP 9845 project. Had it been just a bunch of technical > specifications or sample code, I would have ignored it--and I didn't Actualloy, if you come across anything related to classic computers (inclduing specs or sample code), I think it should be mentioned here. > think you subscribed to EDN. I don't. I read it years ago when I had a job. Not any more. > > But this was a War Story. FWIW, I do find war stories interesting... > > I'm more interested in the mind of the developer and and much less in > the actual physical hardware itself. After all, any of the old > hardware could, given sufficient resources, recreated or simulated. > > It's the people that's irreplaceable. I have almost the opposite view based on similar reasons/ Alas people have to die sometime, and they cannot be kept going as long as you like. Hardware often can be (as you said _anything_ can be recreated given enough resources). So I am much more interested in keeping the actual hardware operational. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Nov 5 17:37:19 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2010 22:37:19 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Fragility in the floppy world (was Re: TRS-80 Model II Manuals) In-Reply-To: <9e47686fa552c9228e864ece447aef25@vodafone.co.nz> from "Mike van Bokhoven" at Nov 5, 10 11:40:11 am Message-ID: > > Oh, go ahead... But I beleive that cucifixion has never been used as a > > suicide method. > > No. I've tried it dozens of times; there's just no way you can hammer in > the last nail. I have this image of 4 of those butane-powered nailers used by builders suitably arranged nad with a remote triggger facility. You get your arms and legs in the right places, somehow press the switch and bang... No I am NOT thinking of trying this. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Nov 5 17:14:28 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2010 22:14:28 +0000 (GMT) Subject: DiscFerret: First working hardware, firmware and microcode! In-Reply-To: <20101104151430.A20554@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Nov 4, 10 03:17:40 pm Message-ID: > > On Thu, 4 Nov 2010, Tony Duell wrote: > > Eh? RLL is a date encoding scheme, ST412 is a de-facto stadnard for the > > signals on the drive interface connectors. They are not the same thing at > > all. > > ST412 is ALSO a drive that the "de-facto standard" is named after. > They seem to be getting harder to find. It is, indeed. I suspect ST412s are more common than ST406s though That is not one mf my typos. There is an ST406, it's a single-platter, 2 head thing, otherwise the same as the ST412. There's also an ST419, which is the 3 platter 6 head version. The last 2 digits seem to give the unfrmatted capacity in Mbytes. > > > > ST412-type of interface) is that in general the encoding system only > > matters to the user on a 'raw' interface, > > and, I'd say that the DiscFerret certainly meets MY definitions of a "raw" > interface. > I would claim it can do. To me a 'raw interdace' means you get a bitstream that is just a cleaned-up version of the magnetic transitions going past the head. There is no attempt made to interpret that bitstream (even the first stage of separating clock and data). >From what I've heard [1], the diskferet can handle that sort of thing, so it could be a raw interfce. On the other hand, with a right programming it could als handle a seaprated clock/data type of interface I think. [1] I will admit I've not looked at the design yet. Mainly because I have no way of using one. I fully appreciate that with the amount of data that has to be transfered back to the host machine, you need a fast modern interface like USB. But I don't hava suitable host. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Nov 5 17:53:49 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2010 22:53:49 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Amstrad 3in disc drive troubleshooting In-Reply-To: <4CD355BD.1070301@philpem.me.uk> from "Philip Pemberton" at Nov 5, 10 00:54:21 am Message-ID: > > OK, this is seriously weird. > > I have two Amstrad 3-inch disc drives: an EME-156, and an EME-231. I have scheamtics that might be related. The main ASIC seems to be an M51017Ap in both cases. > > Both drives will spin up, select and generally "work". For varying > values of "work". On both, the "activity" (selected, whatever) LED is > stuck on at half-brightness, but switches to full brightness when the > drive is selected. I an't see why it would do that. According to the schematic, the LED is driven by pin 44 of the ASIC, have you stuck a 'scope o nther to see if the half-brightness is actually a square wave? > > For reference: both drives are showing the exact same symptoms. If getting the power lines backwads does do damage, is it psosigle that the otehr drive was damaged before you got it? > > I can select the drive, spin the motor, and seek around the disc. > Writing seems to work (more or less) -- when WR GATE goes low, the coils > of the head are driven to ~10V with smaller positive and negative pulses > (sort of like an exponential curve, synchronised with the falling edge > of WRDATA). When WR GATE goes high again, the head voltage falls back to > about 2V. I am not convinced that's right. What is the centre-tap of the head doing (ASIC pin 18 for side 0 and pin 20 for side 1)?The head should be a low-resistnce device and if you're getting 11V across it, something is wrong. > > When I try and read anything, the head shows no response whatsoever. No > pulses on either side of the head at any amplitude (measured with a 1:10 > probe on a Tek TDS2024B). Similarly, RD DATA shows no pulses either, > except for a brief glitch (2.8us or so) when the drive is selected. Anything on TP1,2 on the drive PCB? Those are the differential outputs of the read amplifier, used for head alignment. FWIW, the peripheral components around that bit of the ASIC look very like the ones used on a MC3470. > - Discs. The discs aren't actually magnetically coated in any way, or > the coating has failed in some way. Catch is, I don't have a known-good > disc to test with. I think that's unlikely > - Heads. Dirty, out of alignment or otherwise completely pooched. Well, clean the heads!. Check the DC resistance (should be very low between the 4 wires going to a head). Out of alignment won't make a difference, you are reading and writing with the same head, in the same position. > Can anyone suggest some things I could check, or are these drives likely > to be toast? Do you have the schemciats? -tony From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Fri Nov 5 19:30:34 2010 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2010 16:30:34 -0800 Subject: Tek 4051 in Austin In-Reply-To: <2061622792.581106.1288996322243.JavaMail.root@sz0109a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> References: <2061622792.581106.1288996322243.JavaMail.root@sz0109a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: On 2010 Nov 5, at 2:32 PM, Michael Holley wrote: > The TEK 4051 is a Graphics Terminal with BASIC in ROM, It used the > Motorola 6800 microprocessor. I did a Wikipedia article on the MC6800 > and illustrated it with several old advertisements including the first > M6800 ad and a Tektronix 4051 ad. > > Here is the article > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motorola_6800 Thanks for that history of the development of the 6800, Michael. While I had some prior hardware exposure to the 8080 and Z80 in an IMSAI, the 6800 was the first microproc I really became acquainted with and programmed at the instruction/assembly level. From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Fri Nov 5 20:12:16 2010 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2010 17:12:16 -0800 Subject: Virtual memory In-Reply-To: <4CD426CD.21016.168488B@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4CD1BC38.6060306@softjar.se>, <1991486f4297558cad69e92377d717d6@cs.ubc.ca> <4CD426CD.21016.168488B@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On 2010 Nov 5, at 2:46 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 5 Nov 2010 at 15:09, Brent Hilpert wrote: >> By the nomenclature I grew up with or suffer under, the term "virtual >> memory" only applies in scenario 4, although "virtual addresses" could >> be said to have been introduced in scenario 2. > > My original definition was that "virtual memory" was the ability of a > system (hardware, software, whatever) to fool a program into thinking > that there was more memory present than was physically the case. > > Johnny (and please forgive me if I got this wrong) tied it into the > ability to present each user with a address space, such that two > users could use the same address space, but have different data. Key > was the claim that a system with more physical memory than the user > could directly address still qualified as virtual memory. > I don't tie virtual memory into paging or even to multi-tasking or > multi-user, Agreed, .. I got carried away with building one scenario from the previous - scenario 4 can stand apart without involving multiple users/tasks, and so I think meets the def in your first paragraph. > although I'll concede that paging is a way (albeit > rather simple-minded) to implement it. The Burroughs B5000 didn't > employ paging and yet I think few would argue that it did not > implement virtual memory (and quite possibly the earliest commercial > use of it). > I'm not familiar with the B5000 implementation (did I miss it in the thread already?), but I did try to avoid restricting the def to that of paging. From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Fri Nov 5 19:30:38 2010 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 05 Nov 2010 19:30:38 -0500 Subject: DiscFerret: First working hardware, firmware and microcode! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CD4A1AE.4090404@gmail.com> Tony Duell wrote: > It is, indeed. I suspect ST412s are more common than ST406s though That > is not one mf my typos. There is an ST406, it's a single-platter, 2 head > thing, otherwise the same as the ST412. ST406's are very rare things IME. Even ST506's aren't that common... :-) (I have serious regrets over selling my Apple ///, just because of the pair of ST506 drives which went with it) > [1] I will admit I've not looked at the design yet. Mainly because I have > no way of using one. I fully appreciate that with the amount of data that > has to be transfered back to the host machine, you need a fast modern > interface like USB. But I don't hava suitable host. I think I would have much preferred SCSI over USB, but you can't please all of the people etc. and it's still an astounding piece of work. Whilst most things annoy me unless I can get all the service info, I suppose I'm just less picky about PCs - I don't mind treating them as a black box, unlike many other things. cheers Jules From nigel.d.williams at gmail.com Fri Nov 5 19:37:40 2010 From: nigel.d.williams at gmail.com (Nigel Williams) Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2010 11:37:40 +1100 Subject: SCSI emulator In-Reply-To: References: <4CD37D41.6040504@neurotica.com> <4CD38AD1.3070205@gmail.com> <4CD425A8.2080902@bitsavers.org> <3b9501cb7d02$996830e0$6600a8c0@portajara> <4CD42BEC.7080100@neurotica.com> <3bf701cb7d04$0d084ca0$6600a8c0@portajara> <20101105161504.GA12722@Update.UU.SE> <3c4601cb7d07$77464c90$6600a8c0@portajara> <4CD4348D.8090202@neurotica.com> <3ea901cb7d0e$4aaff210$6600a8c0@portajara> Message-ID: On Sat, Nov 6, 2010 at 4:43 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > The blocks themselves > are nearly always formatted to 512 bytes per block (though in the > earliest days, 256 bytes per block was not unknown), and the blocks > can be just read out sequentially starting with 0000000 (which is > something 'dd' is exceptionally good at). Out of curiosity what determines the 512-bytes per block setting on a common SCSI hard drive? Is this done with low-level formatting and is that in the drives firmware or an external utility? I understand that the IBM AS/400 machines for example use 520-byte sectors, so does it mean that a common SCSI hard drive with 512-byte sectors can never be used with an AS/400 or is just a matter of low-level formatting? has anyone ever attempted this? I have an old CISC AS/400 and I am wondering what the long term options are going to be for spinning storage. From cclist at sydex.com Fri Nov 5 19:39:55 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 05 Nov 2010 17:39:55 -0700 Subject: Virtual memory In-Reply-To: References: , <4CD426CD.21016.168488B@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4CD4416B.16184.1D13CB5@cclist.sydex.com> On 5 Nov 2010 at 17:12, Brent Hilpert wrote: > I'm not familiar with the B5000 implementation (did I miss it in the > thread already?), but I did try to avoid restricting the def to that > of paging. The B5000, circa 1961 was an amazing bit of equipment. Read about it here, then compare with later systems. http://www.ajwm.net/amayer/papers/B5000.html Makes the PDP-11 seem like a pile of Tinker Toys in comparison. --Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Nov 5 19:47:27 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 05 Nov 2010 20:47:27 -0400 Subject: SCSI emulator In-Reply-To: References: <4CD37D41.6040504@neurotica.com> <4CD38AD1.3070205@gmail.com> <4CD425A8.2080902@bitsavers.org> <3b9501cb7d02$996830e0$6600a8c0@portajara> <4CD42BEC.7080100@neurotica.com> <3bf701cb7d04$0d084ca0$6600a8c0@portajara> <20101105161504.GA12722@Update.UU.SE> <3c4601cb7d07$77464c90$6600a8c0@portajara> <4CD4348D.8090202@neurotica.com> <3ea901cb7d0e$4aaff210$6600a8c0@portajara> Message-ID: <4CD4A59F.7090805@neurotica.com> On 11/5/10 8:37 PM, Nigel Williams wrote: >> The blocks themselves >> are nearly always formatted to 512 bytes per block (though in the >> earliest days, 256 bytes per block was not unknown), and the blocks >> can be just read out sequentially starting with 0000000 (which is >> something 'dd' is exceptionally good at). > > Out of curiosity what determines the 512-bytes per block setting on a > common SCSI hard drive? Is this done with low-level formatting and is > that in the drives firmware or an external utility? It's done in the low-level formatting. When you tell the drive to format itself, you set its block size. > I understand that the IBM AS/400 machines for example use 520-byte > sectors, so does it mean that a common SCSI hard drive with 512-byte > sectors can never be used with an AS/400 or is just a matter of > low-level formatting? has anyone ever attempted this? The latter. I have reformatted lots of weird-sector-size SCSI drives back to 512 byte sectors. I've gotten drives formatted to 520 bytes, 576 bytes, and (I think) 640 bytes. I don't recall having formatted *away* from 512 byte sectors, but that shouldn't be an issue. > I have an old CISC AS/400 and I am wondering what the long term > options are going to be for spinning storage. I think you'll be ok. The worst that'll happen is you'll need to find a fancy SCSI utility to reformat your drive while giving you a lot of control over *how* it's reformatted. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Nov 5 19:48:43 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 05 Nov 2010 20:48:43 -0400 Subject: Virtual memory In-Reply-To: <4CD4416B.16184.1D13CB5@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4CD426CD.21016.168488B@cclist.sydex.com>, <4CD4416B.16184.1D13CB5@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4CD4A5EB.1090308@neurotica.com> On 11/5/10 8:39 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> I'm not familiar with the B5000 implementation (did I miss it in the >> thread already?), but I did try to avoid restricting the def to that >> of paging. > > The B5000, circa 1961 was an amazing bit of equipment. Read about it > here, then compare with later systems. > > http://www.ajwm.net/amayer/papers/B5000.html Oooohh, tasty! I know what I'll be reading before bed tonight. > Makes the PDP-11 seem like a pile of Tinker Toys in comparison. [watches lightning strike Chuck] -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From nigel.d.williams at gmail.com Fri Nov 5 19:56:24 2010 From: nigel.d.williams at gmail.com (Nigel Williams) Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2010 11:56:24 +1100 Subject: SCSI emulator In-Reply-To: <4CD4A59F.7090805@neurotica.com> References: <4CD37D41.6040504@neurotica.com> <4CD38AD1.3070205@gmail.com> <4CD425A8.2080902@bitsavers.org> <3b9501cb7d02$996830e0$6600a8c0@portajara> <4CD42BEC.7080100@neurotica.com> <3bf701cb7d04$0d084ca0$6600a8c0@portajara> <20101105161504.GA12722@Update.UU.SE> <3c4601cb7d07$77464c90$6600a8c0@portajara> <4CD4348D.8090202@neurotica.com> <3ea901cb7d0e$4aaff210$6600a8c0@portajara> <4CD4A59F.7090805@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Nov 6, 2010 at 11:47 AM, Dave McGuire wrote: > ?I think you'll be ok. ?The worst that'll happen is you'll need to find a > fancy SCSI utility to reformat your drive while giving you a lot of control > over *how* it's reformatted. Any suggestions of a name I should be seeking? I presume this means that there is not something already open-source or built-into Linux (a device driver that could be altered)? This latter aspect might need to be explored since if I want to 'dd' the contents for a backup then I would need to construct a way to save the extra bytes. From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Fri Nov 5 20:03:09 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sat, 06 Nov 2010 01:03:09 +0000 Subject: Amstrad 3in disc drive troubleshooting In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CD4A94D.6060306@philpem.me.uk> On 05/11/10 22:53, Tony Duell wrote: > I have scheamtics that might be related. The main ASIC seems to be an > M51017Ap in both cases. Yep. I think I might have the same schematics. Amstrad PCW 8256/8512 Service Manual? > I an't see why it would do that. According to the schematic, the LED is > driven by pin 44 of the ASIC, have you stuck a 'scope o nther to see if > the half-brightness is actually a square wave? Not yet, no. > If getting the power lines backwads does do damage, is it psosigle that > the otehr drive was damaged before you got it? I'd go with "probable". They were sold to me as "spares or repair, no idea if they even work." >> I can select the drive, spin the motor, and seek around the disc. >> Writing seems to work (more or less) -- when WR GATE goes low, the coils >> of the head are driven to ~10V with smaller positive and negative pulses >> (sort of like an exponential curve, synchronised with the falling edge >> of WRDATA). When WR GATE goes high again, the head voltage falls back to >> about 2V. > > I am not convinced that's right. What is the centre-tap of the head doing > (ASIC pin 18 for side 0 and pin 20 for side 1)?The head should be a > low-resistnce device and if you're getting 11V across it, something is wrong. I haven't checked the centre tap. I've just found a test/adjustment procedure in the Amstrad manual which suggests that the ASIC tries to float the head in relation to ground, but that the absolute voltage over the head is zero unless it's in use. That might explain the strange measurements. > Anything on TP1,2 on the drive PCB? Those are the differential outputs of > the read amplifier, used for head alignment. Nope, nothing on either. >> - Discs. The discs aren't actually magnetically coated in any way, or >> the coating has failed in some way. Catch is, I don't have a known-good >> disc to test with. > > I think that's unlikely That's good to hear... >> - Heads. Dirty, out of alignment or otherwise completely pooched. > > Well, clean the heads!. Done that (with a cotton bud and Servisol IPA-170 Isopropyl Alcohol). No change in behaviour, no dirt on the cotton bud I used to clean them. > Check the DC resistance (should be very low between the 4 wires going > to a head). On the to-do list (it's a bit late to be getting out the DMM at this time of day!) > Out of alignment won't make a > difference, you are reading and writing with the same head, in the same > position. Good point. >> Can anyone suggest some things I could check, or are these drives likely >> to be toast? > > Do you have the schemciats? I have the PCW8256/8512 service manual, the 8256-only service manual and the 9512 service manual as PDFs, which include the drive schematics. Thanks, -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From cclist at sydex.com Fri Nov 5 20:12:50 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 05 Nov 2010 18:12:50 -0700 Subject: Amstrad 3in disc drive troubleshooting In-Reply-To: <4CD4A94D.6060306@philpem.me.uk> References: , <4CD4A94D.6060306@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4CD44922.11674.1EF5DE7@cclist.sydex.com> On 6 Nov 2010 at 1:03, Philip Pemberton wrote: > Yep. I think I might have the same schematics. Amstrad PCW 8256/8512 > Service Manual? Got an 8256 here (those things should be as common as fleas in the UK, I'd think. Getting a 120V 60Hz one here was a little less easy). I've installed two 720K (Teac FD235F) 3.5" drives, both to get something that will work with available media and also to get more storage. The Joyce uses single-sided 3" disks. With a simple one- byte change in the boot sector, I can use larger 720K DSDD floppies. But anyway, back to your problem. About all I can verify right now without hauling out the scope and screwdriver is that the activity LED is normally about 1/3 brightness when not selected and that it blinks briefly when power is first applied. --Chuck From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Fri Nov 5 20:18:39 2010 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Fri, 05 Nov 2010 18:18:39 -0700 Subject: Terak 8510/c Info? Message-ID: <4CD4ACEF.60003@mail.msu.edu> Hi all - Just got myself a Terak 8510/c workstation, in pretty decent shape. I'm going over it, and preparing to power it up (after testing the power supply). Anyone know any details about this particular model? (And what technical differences there are between the /a and the /c?) There appears to be a good amount of information about the 8510/a, but I can't find a thing about the /c variant. The /c appears to be considerably newer (mine dates from around 1982 and is branded Calcomp on the front), seems to have replaced the single internal 8" drive with two half height 8" drives, and the keyboard and monitor are completely different. A service manual would be extremely helpful -- a few of the double-height QBus cards came loose during shipping and were banging around and I'm not sure yet what the order is supposed to be (I guess I'll have to figure out whether the backplane is serpentine or not... shouldn't be too hard) and it'd be useful to know what the power supply pinouts are so I can test the voltages. And while I'm at it -- has anyone archived any Terak floppies? There's nothing on Bitsavers and I can't find anything anywhere else. Be nice to have some software to run on this thing after I get it running again :). Thanks as always, Josh From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Fri Nov 5 20:21:51 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2010 23:21:51 -0200 Subject: SCSI emulator References: <4CD37D41.6040504@neurotica.com><4CD38AD1.3070205@gmail.com> <4CD425A8.2080902@bitsavers.org><3b9501cb7d02$996830e0$6600a8c0@portajara><4CD42BEC.7080100@neurotica.com><3bf701cb7d04$0d084ca0$6600a8c0@portajara><20101105161504.GA12722@Update.UU.SE><3c4601cb7d07$77464c90$6600a8c0@portajara><4CD4348D.8090202@neurotica.com><3ea901cb7d0e$4aaff210$6600a8c0@portajara><4CD4A59F.7090805@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <445201cb7d51$4940d640$6600a8c0@portajara> >Any suggestions of a name I should be seeking? I presume this means >that there is not something already open-source or built-into Linux (a >device driver that could be altered)? This latter aspect might need to >be explored since if I want to 'dd' the contents for a backup then I >would need to construct a way to save the extra bytes. Linux doesn't do that? From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Nov 5 20:34:24 2010 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 05 Nov 2010 18:34:24 -0700 Subject: SCSI emulator In-Reply-To: References: <4CD37D41.6040504@neurotica.com> <4CD38AD1.3070205@gmail.com> <4CD425A8.2080902@bitsavers.org> <3b9501cb7d02$996830e0$6600a8c0@portajara> <4CD42BEC.7080100@neurotica.com> <3bf701cb7d04$0d084ca0$6600a8c0@portajara> <20101105161504.GA12722@Update.UU.SE> <3c4601cb7d07$77464c90$6600a8c0@portajara> <4CD4348D.8090202@neurotica.com> <3ea901cb7d0e$4aaff210$6600a8c0@portajara> <4CD4A59F.7090805@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4CD4B0A0.1000801@bitsavers.org> On 11/5/10 5:56 PM, Nigel Williams wrote: > On Sat, Nov 6, 2010 at 11:47 AM, Dave McGuire wrote: >> I think you'll be ok. The worst that'll happen is you'll need to find a >> fancy SCSI utility to reformat your drive while giving you a lot of control >> over *how* it's reformatted. > > Any suggestions of a name I should be seeking? I presume this means > that there is not something already open-source or built-into Linux (a > device driver that could be altered)? This latter aspect might need to > be explored since if I want to 'dd' the contents for a backup then I > would need to construct a way to save the extra bytes. > > You need to write something to deal with non-512 byte blocks using low-level SCSI commands. I had to do this to archive TI Explorer drives with 256 byte sectors (done a LONG time ago as a Mac OS 9 app). It's not difficult to do, you have to remember to build in a way to continue and flag blocks that couldn't be read. From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Nov 5 20:36:16 2010 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 05 Nov 2010 18:36:16 -0700 Subject: Terak 8510/c Info? In-Reply-To: <4CD4ACEF.60003@mail.msu.edu> References: <4CD4ACEF.60003@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <4CD4B110.2070708@bitsavers.org> On 11/5/10 6:18 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > Hi all - > > Just got myself a Terak 8510/c workstation, in pretty decent shape. I'm going over it, and preparing to power it up (after testing the power supply). Anyone know any details about this particular > model? (And what technical differences there are between the /a and the /c?) I'll check to see if I have anything that isn't on line. John Foust should have some of this. I've got a couple of the CPUs (also Calcomp), but no keyboards. From legalize at xmission.com Fri Nov 5 22:11:29 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 05 Nov 2010 21:11:29 -0600 Subject: Terak 8510/c Info? In-Reply-To: <4CD4ACEF.60003@mail.msu.edu> References: <4CD4ACEF.60003@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: In article <4CD4ACEF.60003 at mail.msu.edu>, Josh Dersch writes: > And while I'm at it -- has anyone archived any Terak floppies? There's > nothing on Bitsavers and I can't find anything anywhere else. Be nice > to have some software to run on this thing after I get it running again :). I have a complete system with a number of floppies. I've been meaning to send them to Al for archiving... -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Fri Nov 5 23:28:05 2010 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2010 20:28:05 -0800 Subject: Virtual memory In-Reply-To: <4CD4416B.16184.1D13CB5@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4CD426CD.21016.168488B@cclist.sydex.com>, <4CD4416B.16184.1D13CB5@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <3b794d18d8dc2b2b86a6474e6383400a@cs.ubc.ca> On 2010 Nov 5, at 4:39 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 5 Nov 2010 at 17:12, Brent Hilpert wrote: >> I'm not familiar with the B5000 implementation (did I miss it in the >> thread already?), but I did try to avoid restricting the def to that >> of paging. > > The B5000, circa 1961 was an amazing bit of equipment. Read about it > here, then compare with later systems. > > http://www.ajwm.net/amayer/papers/B5000.html > > Makes the PDP-11 seem like a pile of Tinker Toys in comparison. Well, you have to love a machine with a "HEYU" instruction (get the attention of another processor). I was aware of many aspects of the B5000 series, from AotHoC articles, but not with the VM implementation technique. The article mentions the use of a descriptors to indicate memory segment availability, but doesn't describe much of the VM beyond that. It doesn't make it clear when VM was actually implemented, I had always been led to believe the ATLAS was the first VM machine, in the early 60's. -- Outside the B5000 topic, it is amusing to read the writer's advice in 1982 of "Machines worth keeping an eye on are the iAPX-432 and the IBM System/38". From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Nov 5 22:31:47 2010 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 05 Nov 2010 20:31:47 -0700 Subject: Terak 8510/c Info? In-Reply-To: References: <4CD4ACEF.60003@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <4CD4CC23.4000503@bitsavers.org> On 11/5/10 8:11 PM, Richard wrote: > I have a complete system with a number of floppies. I've been meaning > to send them to Al for archiving... 8010/a or /c ? CHM has a few hand-labeled Terak floppies, probably from the 8010/a's that we have. Josh, which video card do you have? The later machines used 7220-based cards (just color ones?) I dug up a few more documents, but nothing all that interesting. There was also someone working on a simulator at one point http://sourceforge.net/projects/bk-terak-emu/ From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Nov 5 22:59:36 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2010 20:59:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Fragility in the floppy world (was Re: TRS-80 Model II Manuals) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20101105205526.A72304@shell.lmi.net> > > Oh, go ahead... But I beleive that cucifixion has never been used as a > > > suicide method. > > No. I've tried it dozens of times; there's just no way you can hammer in > > the last nail. On Fri, 5 Nov 2010, Tony Duell wrote: > I have this image of 4 of those butane-powered nailers used by builders > suitably arranged nad with a remote triggger facility. You get your arms > and legs in the right places, somehow press the switch and bang... You might be able to get away with one of the Sears "Nextec" cordless electric hammers. > No I am NOT thinking of trying this. So, the technique remains untested. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From pat at computer-refuge.org Fri Nov 5 22:59:56 2010 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2010 23:59:56 -0400 Subject: SCSI emulator In-Reply-To: References: <4CD4A59F.7090805@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <201011052359.56757.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Friday, November 05, 2010, Nigel Williams wrote: > On Sat, Nov 6, 2010 at 11:47 AM, Dave McGuire wrote: > > I think you'll be ok. The worst that'll happen is you'll need to > > find a fancy SCSI utility to reformat your drive while giving you > > a lot of control over *how* it's reformatted. > > Any suggestions of a name I should be seeking? I presume this means > that there is not something already open-source or built-into Linux > (a device driver that could be altered)? This latter aspect might > need to be explored since if I want to 'dd' the contents for a > backup then I would need to construct a way to save the extra bytes. Check out sg_dd, a part of the sg3_utils package. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From cclist at sydex.com Fri Nov 5 23:09:14 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 05 Nov 2010 21:09:14 -0700 Subject: Virtual memory In-Reply-To: <3b794d18d8dc2b2b86a6474e6383400a@cs.ubc.ca> References: , <4CD4416B.16184.1D13CB5@cclist.sydex.com>, <3b794d18d8dc2b2b86a6474e6383400a@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <4CD4727A.32458.290DCEB@cclist.sydex.com> On 5 Nov 2010 at 20:28, Brent Hilpert wrote: > I was aware of many aspects of the B5000 series, from AotHoC articles, > but not with the VM implementation technique. The article mentions the > use of a descriptors to indicate memory segment availability, but > doesn't describe much of the VM beyond that. It doesn't make it clear > when VM was actually implemented, I had always been led to believe the > ATLAS was the first VM machine, in the early 60's. For a more personal view on the subject of Virtual Memory, have a read of Richard Waychoff's narrative. He has a completely different view of what he considers to be virtual memory and ascribes the first implementation to the B205--a magnetic drum machine: http://web.me.com/ianjoyner/Files/Waychoff.pdf > Outside the B5000 topic, it is amusing to read the writer's advice in > 1982 of "Machines worth keeping an eye on are the iAPX-432 and the IBM > System/38". I've never seen a S/38 in person. It would be an interesting system for a collector to have. --Chuck From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri Nov 5 23:32:50 2010 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2010 21:32:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: DiscFerret: First working hardware, firmware and microcode! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 5 Nov 2010, Tony Duell wrote: >> I'd be mildly surprised if some enterprising firm didn't try to >> record a frame of analog video at 60 fps on an ST412 track. One rev >> per frame... > > I am told that the action replays on TV were onc erecorded on a special > hard idsk. One frame per track, fixed heads (so almost instant moving > from one frame to the next) and analogue FM recording. > > One of the companies that made them (PPL I think) also sold it as a PDP11 > video dispaly peripheral. The special hard disk and a rack of boards (FM > modulato/demodulator, sync, etc). Connected via a DR11-B interace. I have > one. > Ampex was the pioneer in this particular field I think. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri Nov 5 23:34:26 2010 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2010 21:34:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Tek 4051 in Austin In-Reply-To: References: <2061622792.581106.1288996322243.JavaMail.root@sz0109a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 5 Nov 2010, Brent Hilpert wrote: > On 2010 Nov 5, at 2:32 PM, Michael Holley wrote: > > > Thanks for that history of the development of the 6800, Michael. > > While I had some prior hardware exposure to the 8080 and Z80 in an IMSAI, the > 6800 was the first microproc I really became acquainted with and programmed > at the instruction/assembly level. > On a nearly related note, the TEWS (Tactical Electronic Warfare System) in the F-15 fighter is/was built around a 6800B. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sat Nov 6 01:22:19 2010 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2010 22:22:19 -0800 Subject: thin-film and plated-wire memory In-Reply-To: <4CD4727A.32458.290DCEB@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4CD4416B.16184.1D13CB5@cclist.sydex.com>, <3b794d18d8dc2b2b86a6474e6383400a@cs.ubc.ca> <4CD4727A.32458.290DCEB@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <2e7b4164e84f033dfa80490a42787ee3@cs.ubc.ca> Mentioned in the B5000 article was thin-film memory. Idle curiousity: are there any examples of thin-film memory, or that other 60's memory alternative - plated-wire memory, still existant? Perhaps in machines at CHM? How about functioning examples? From geoffr at zipcon.net Sat Nov 6 00:23:24 2010 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoffrey Reed) Date: Fri, 05 Nov 2010 22:23:24 -0700 Subject: Firearms - Was Re: SCSI emulator In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 11/5/10 1:19 PM, "Gene Buckle" wrote: > On Fri, 5 Nov 2010, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > >>>> Living in Rio de Janeiro is a dangerous thing ;( >>> Ye gods man. Get yourself a Desert Eagle .50 :) >> >> I had it some years before. Although a good gun for killing elephants, it >> is not that much pratical for street combat. Too weighty and expensive ammo. >> I'd prefer a Glock. It is nice to have it well concealed and being >> lightweight. >> > Might I suggest an MP5K? :) > > g. Keeping this on topic :) How about a 44/40 revolver. It's always nice to use something that can stop a large beast in it's tracks. From legalize at xmission.com Sat Nov 6 03:22:25 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sat, 06 Nov 2010 02:22:25 -0600 Subject: Terak 8510/c Info? In-Reply-To: <4CD4CC23.4000503@bitsavers.org> References: <4CD4ACEF.60003@mail.msu.edu> <4CD4CC23.4000503@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: In article <4CD4CC23.4000503 at bitsavers.org>, Al Kossow writes: > On 11/5/10 8:11 PM, Richard wrote: > > > I have a complete system with a number of floppies. I've been meaning > > to send them to Al for archiving... > > 8010/a or /c ? The nameplate doesn't say A or C: > CHM has a few hand-labeled Terak floppies, probably from the 8010/a's > that we have. I have a fairly large number of them and they include Pascal, RT-11 and a music system. > I dug up a few more documents, but nothing all that interesting. I have some documentation, but I don't think its anything that isn't already on bitsavers. > There was also someone working on a simulator at one point > http://sourceforge.net/projects/bk-terak-emu/ Cool, didn't know about that. Looks like the only thing holding him back on the Terak is a ROM dump. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From pontus at update.uu.se Sat Nov 6 03:28:46 2010 From: pontus at update.uu.se (Pontus) Date: Sat, 06 Nov 2010 09:28:46 +0100 Subject: PDP 11 Core Memory In-Reply-To: <0F5647245C2E4427993C32C8004719B2@tegp4> References: <0F5647245C2E4427993C32C8004719B2@tegp4> Message-ID: <4CD511BE.5000202@update.uu.se> 2010-11-05 23:42, Tom Gardner skrev: > > Good eyes! > > When I look more closely, it seems that the X and Y lines are under > the center sections but no cores, ergo, 16 core mats. I'd like to see > a real one to confirm. > > Tom > The reason I noticed is that I looked at a core memory board for a PDP-10 just the other day, it had one half section with missing core. I could take a picture if you like. /P From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Sat Nov 6 04:11:26 2010 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Sat, 06 Nov 2010 02:11:26 -0700 Subject: Terak 8510/c Info? In-Reply-To: <4CD4CC23.4000503@bitsavers.org> References: <4CD4ACEF.60003@mail.msu.edu> <4CD4CC23.4000503@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4CD51BBE.5050703@mail.msu.edu> On 11/5/2010 8:31 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > > > Josh, which video card do you have? The later machines used 7220-based > cards (just color ones?) Looks like it's got a 7220D in it. The monitor appears to be monochrome. I put up some pictures of the machine and its PCBs at: http://yahozna.dyndns.org/scratch/terak/ Also, it appears that I got two Terak floppies with the machine -- they were left in the drives. Probably not the best way to ship floppies across the country. One of them is a lost cause, the magnetic media is delaminating, but I was able to make an image of the other, and I put it up (in IMD and raw format) at: http://yahozna.dyndns.org/computers/software/terak/ Scanning the dump for strings reveals: "MINN/DRAFT COMPUTER-AIDED DRAFTING SYSTEM DEVELOPED AT THE UNIVERSITY OF MINNESOTA JUNE 20, 1980" So I guess that makes it relatively clear what the disk contains :). - Josh From oe5ewl at gmail.com Fri Nov 5 14:18:34 2010 From: oe5ewl at gmail.com (Wolfgang Eichberger) Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2010 20:18:34 +0100 Subject: SCSI emulator In-Reply-To: <4CD449DC.9010800@neurotica.com> References: <4CD37D41.6040504@neurotica.com> <4CD38AD1.3070205@gmail.com> <4CD425A8.2080902@bitsavers.org> <3b9501cb7d02$996830e0$6600a8c0@portajara> <4CD42BEC.7080100@neurotica.com> <3bf701cb7d04$0d084ca0$6600a8c0@portajara> <20101105161504.GA12722@Update.UU.SE> <3c4601cb7d07$77464c90$6600a8c0@portajara> <4CD4348D.8090202@neurotica.com> <3ea901cb7d0e$4aaff210$6600a8c0@portajara> <4CD44442.5070109@neurotica.com> <3fb501cb7d13$a1698990$6600a8c0@portajara> <4CD449DC.9010800@neurotica.com> Message-ID: scsi with avrs sounds interesting. found following links - i think this should be enough stuff for inspiration ;) http://micha.freeshell.org/ramdisk/index.php ^^^ there should be enough stuff in my grab-box; would be a nice project... http://instruct1.cit.cornell.edu/courses/ee476/FinalProjects/s2001/sjk26/Default.htm http://micha.freeshell.org/pcmcia_drive/index.php 73s wolfgang -- Wolfgang Eichberger - OE5EWL Operating System Research Blog: 5ewl.blogspot.com Homepage: www.eichberger.org 2010/11/5 Dave McGuire : > On 11/5/10 2:01 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >>>> >>>> Never. That's why I'm so interested. Seems something interesting to >>>> loose some time. Who knows I can create a sd-card-to-scsi bridge? :) >>> >> Oh no!! Beat him senseless! >> >> He had a 9mm pistol on his hand, I don't think it would be smart :( > > ?:-( > >>> There is no strange formatting, in the way that we normally think of >>> "formatting". It is not possible to reach those levels of a SCSI >>> device, so there are no incompatibilities. The host says "give me >>> block number 5324985", and sometime later, the target hard drive says >>> "hey host, here's the data for block number 5324985 that you asked >>> for". Zero format compatibility issues. >> >> This is **VERY** interesting. I think I'll buy a zip drive tomorrow and >> one or two zip disks and begin to read/write things to see how it works. >> So bad I'll stay "grounded" for about 2 to 3 months before my new lab >> gets ready :( >> >> I'll do something even on kitchen table :D > > ?If memory serves, you are an AVR guy. ?You can easily bit-bang the SCSI > protocol from a microcontroller. ?I think there are people here who have > done it. ?I've looked at it and it doesn't seem like it'd be terribly > difficult. > > ? ? ? ? ?-Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire > Port Charlotte, FL > From axelsson at acc.umu.se Fri Nov 5 17:29:03 2010 From: axelsson at acc.umu.se (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?G=F6ran_Axelsson?=) Date: Fri, 05 Nov 2010 23:29:03 +0100 Subject: exaggerated claims regarding gold in Pentium Pro (was Re: CPU scrap) In-Reply-To: <4CD4360E.6010500@brouhaha.com> References: <23A678B00752413BBB4ACB90316A22A8@dell8300> <4F70040BF99D4AA4B7F6172DBEB991BA@dell8300> <4CD3D3F7.9090401@brouhaha.com> <201011050910.44745.pat@computer-refuge.org> <4CD4360E.6010500@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4CD4852F.3040401@acc.umu.se> http://www.goldrefiningforum.com have the answer... or at least better data. http://www.goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=60&t=62&p=51554#p52836 .... "Here's a shot of the 0.310 gram BB of gold from the exterior of a single PP cpu:" More data, PC mother boards is sold and bought by members on that forum at $4 per pound, if there were 10 ounces gold per ton the price would be higher.... but for mobile phone board I've seen figures in that area. I have also managed to extract 0.2g of gold from a single 286 CPU. There is a lot of old IC:s in ceramic capsule that is using a gold silicone braze for fastening the die and the lid. The surface plating is usually very thin. Disclaimer : No working or rare CPU:s were hurt in making this posting. /G?ran Eric Smith wrote: > Patrick Finnegan wrote: >> A few years ago, a scrapper would give me just over $6 per PPro in qty >> 1, so either he was an idiot (less likely), or there's something to >> this. > I can think of a few other possible reasons that have nothing to do > with gold content. The most obvious is simply that the resale value > of a Pentium Pro was well over $6. > >> Don't forget to include the bond-out wires, the fact that there's two >> pieces of silicon that need to be interconnected, and the gold plating >> on pins. > I don't think those add up to more than a small fraction of my > estimate of the amount of gold on the kovar lid, but that is why I > allowed for being off by an order of magnitude in my estimate, and yet > the amount of gold even with that fudge factor is far less than the > wild claims being made. > > Eric > From ats at offog.org Sat Nov 6 08:08:52 2010 From: ats at offog.org (Adam Sampson) Date: Sat, 06 Nov 2010 13:08:52 +0000 Subject: DiscFerret: First working hardware, firmware and microcode! In-Reply-To: (Tony Duell's message of "Fri, 5 Nov 2010 22:35:14 +0000 (GMT)") References: Message-ID: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) writes: > I am told that the action replays on TV were onc erecorded on a special > hard idsk. One frame per track, fixed heads (so almost instant moving > from one frame to the next) and analogue FM recording. There are pictures of a couple of these machines on the rather splendid BBC VT Old Boys site: http://www.vtoldboys.com/slo60_7.htm http://www.vtoldboys.com/slo70_3.htm They've also got some examples of uses for the BBC Micro within VT: http://www.vtoldboys.com/micro.htm -- Adam Sampson From jfoust at threedee.com Sat Nov 6 08:18:49 2010 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sat, 06 Nov 2010 08:18:49 -0500 Subject: Terak 8510/c Info? In-Reply-To: References: <4CD4ACEF.60003@mail.msu.edu> <4CD4CC23.4000503@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <201011061323.oA6DN3Op084629@billY.EZWIND.NET> At 03:22 AM 11/6/2010, Richard wrote: >The nameplate doesn't say A or C: > That says 8510. Good catch on that 10/4 email that was forwarded to the list; I didn't see "Calcomp Terrac" or I would've jumped on it! This is the 8510/a. Without consulting my docs, and my brain may be faulty, but I think the /c just means it was sold with the 8512 second drive. Google "terak 8510/c" and all you find is a message from me in 1996 saying that I have one, which surprised even me. And of course clean out the rotted foam. Did you plug it in? All of my Teraks are non-functional now. Someday I'll debug which caps have gone south. At least I saved the pieces. >I have a fairly large number of them and they include Pascal, RT-11 >and a music system. There's a Unix attempt or two, too. I haven't ever run MINN/DRAFT. I don't know if that software is archived in anyone else's collection. Perhaps that guy has more floppies in a box somewhere. I would guess based on his college association in La Crosse that this system was there since its purchase, and they had a connection up the big river to U-Minn. Or maybe this is one of the multitude that UW-Madison once bought, and that landed over there. >> There was also someone working on a simulator at one point >> http://sourceforge.net/projects/bk-terak-emu/ > >Cool, didn't know about that. Looks like the only thing holding him >back on the Terak is a ROM dump. No, that project has been idle for years, and was no more than speculation on that person's part that a Terak emulation would be as easy as any 11/03 emulation. The Terak has its own graphics hardware that you'd need to emulate. It may not be difficult by today's standards, and we all have the boards to decipher. John Wilson was once interested in adding support to Ersatz-11. - John From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Sat Nov 6 08:35:00 2010 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2010 09:35:00 -0400 (EDT) Subject: thin-film and plated-wire memory In-Reply-To: <2e7b4164e84f033dfa80490a42787ee3@cs.ubc.ca> References: , <4CD4416B.16184.1D13CB5@cclist.sydex.com>, <3b794d18d8dc2b2b86a6474e6383400a@cs.ubc.ca> <4CD4727A.32458.290DCEB@cclist.sydex.com> <2e7b4164e84f033dfa80490a42787ee3@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: On Fri, 5 Nov 2010, Brent Hilpert wrote: > Mentioned in the B5000 article was thin-film memory. > > Idle curiousity: are there any examples of thin-film memory, or that other > 60's memory alternative - plated-wire memory, still existant? Perhaps in > machines at CHM? How about functioning examples? There have been two examples of plated-wire on Ebay, within the last two weeks: 220688106698 300483691293 Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sat Nov 6 10:30:48 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2010 11:30:48 -0400 Subject: thin-film and plated-wire memory In-Reply-To: <2e7b4164e84f033dfa80490a42787ee3@cs.ubc.ca> References: <4CD4416B.16184.1D13CB5@cclist.sydex.com> <3b794d18d8dc2b2b86a6474e6383400a@cs.ubc.ca> <4CD4727A.32458.290DCEB@cclist.sydex.com> <2e7b4164e84f033dfa80490a42787ee3@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: > Idle curiousity: are there any examples of thin-film memory, or that other > 60's memory alternative - plated-wire memory, still existant? Perhaps in > machines at CHM? How about functioning examples? There are still a very few Univacs in collections that have plated wire memory. -- Will From lynchaj at yahoo.com Sat Nov 6 10:33:51 2010 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2010 11:33:51 -0400 Subject: S-100 board PCB planning Message-ID: Hi! Over the last couple of years several of us at N8VEM, S100computers.com, and others have been building S-100 boards. This summer we did a major update/respin cycle to the boards and made manufactured PCBs for many builders. For a while it seemed to satisfy the demand for DIY hobbyist S-100 PCBs but now the interest is starting to pick up again so I thought I would send an update to any S-100 enthusiasts on CCTALK. I will reorder/respin S-100 PCBs once the interest level gets to an economically viable level for a group purchase. Normally that is around 25-30 PCBs I know builders want which makes a cost at $20 plus shipping per PCB affordable for most builders. This compromise balance seems to work well and we've produced several S-100 boards this way. Here are the boards we've made so far: S-100 regular prototyping board (some remaining) S-100 buffered prototyping board (some remaining) S-100 backplane (8 slot plus utility circuitry - one left) S-100 IDE (hard drive, CD-ROM, CF, ATAPI, etc) S-100 parallel ASCII keyboard (just received a new batch of respin PCBs) S-100 4MB SRAM (Flash, etc) S-100 system monitor (similar to Jade Bus Probe but two PCB set - one or two remain) S-100 bus extender (with logic probe, indicator LEDs, etc) S-100 EPROM (SRAM, EEPROM, Flash, etc) S-100 IO (dual serial, USB, voice synthesis, etc) S-100 PIC/RTC All of these have gone through at least one or two internal prototype iterations plus one or more manufactured PCB orders. Since we respin the boards based on builder feedback obviously the later generations of boards tend to be "cleaner" than the earlier ones. This is an all volunteer amateur project so the builders *are* the developers, QA, testers, etc in addition to using the boards. There are four boards in active development and/or approaching manufactured PCB stage S-100 Z80 CPU (just ordered first batch of manufactured PCBs after two rounds of prototype build and test) S-100 Console IO (dual Propeller VGA, PS/2 keyboard, microSD, Ethernet, etc - first iteration prototype boards ordered) S-100 ZFDC intelligent floppy drive controller (Z80/WD2793 second iteration prototype board imminent) S-100 68K CPU (first iteration prototype boards ordered) Please note the above boards no longer *planned* they are actual boards in some form or another. There are several more in the planning stages but I won't waste your time with those since those plans change often. All of the schematics, PCB layouts, bill of materials, etc are available on either the N8VEM wiki or S100Computers.com website including build instructions for the most part. These are noncommercial Do It Yourself (DIY) hobbyist PCBs. They are not perfect nor is this a business. John's apt description from comp.os.cpm captures it well "Andrew Lynch (at N8VEM) see (http://n8vem-sbc.pbworks.com/) and I, are in the process of having a few commercial quality S-100 cards made for ourselves. If others are interested in obtaining a bare card, let Andrew or I know. Please note these would be bare cards, a schematic and that's it. Building the board and implementing CPM etc., you are on your own. This is not a project for first timers." In other words, if you want to play along that's great but this is purely "CAVEAT EMPTOR" and there are no assurances, guarantees, or warrantees on any aspect of the boards. Please this is offered as an information post to interested vintage/classic computer hobbyists not an invitation for flames and pointless criticisms. Please be courteous and keep those to yourself. As always, questions, comments and *constructive* criticism welcome. Thanks and have a nice day! Andrew Lynch From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Nov 6 10:36:13 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 06 Nov 2010 11:36:13 -0400 Subject: SCSI emulator In-Reply-To: References: <4CD37D41.6040504@neurotica.com> <4CD38AD1.3070205@gmail.com> <4CD425A8.2080902@bitsavers.org> <3b9501cb7d02$996830e0$6600a8c0@portajara> <4CD42BEC.7080100@neurotica.com> <3bf701cb7d04$0d084ca0$6600a8c0@portajara> <20101105161504.GA12722@Update.UU.SE> <3c4601cb7d07$77464c90$6600a8c0@portajara> <4CD4348D.8090202@neurotica.com> <3ea901cb7d0e$4aaff210$6600a8c0@portajara> <3fb301cb7d13$9e0cca00$6600a8c0@portajara> <41a201cb7d25$6f801cc0$6600a8c0@portajara> <41f801cb7d2d$1aac2240$6600a8c0@portajara> Message-ID: <4CD575ED.1080107@neurotica.com> On 11/5/10 5:13 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > Could even do what some 3rd-party DEC > drive emulators did - copy non-volatile to RAM at boot time, then RAM > back to non-volatile when powering down. In fact there's at least one DEC product that does that. I have an ESE50, which is an RA90-form-factor drive, 640MB capacity. There's a 3.5" hard drive in the box along with a bank of batteries. When it loses AC power, it runs from the batteries and copies the contents of the RAMdisk over to the hard drive, and does the opposite on powerup. Neat stuff. I may try to put it on the PDP-11/70 at some point. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Nov 6 11:03:40 2010 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 06 Nov 2010 09:03:40 -0700 Subject: Terak 8510/c Info? In-Reply-To: <4CD51BBE.5050703@mail.msu.edu> References: <4CD4ACEF.60003@mail.msu.edu> <4CD4CC23.4000503@bitsavers.org> <4CD51BBE.5050703@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <4CD57C5C.7070909@bitsavers.org> On 11/6/10 2:11 AM, Josh Dersch wrote: > "MINN/DRAFT COMPUTER-AIDED DRAFTING SYSTEM DEVELOPED AT THE UNIVERSITY OF MINNESOTA JUNE 20, 1980" > > So I guess that makes it relatively clear what the disk contains :). > there are some references to this on the web From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Nov 6 11:11:50 2010 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 06 Nov 2010 09:11:50 -0700 Subject: Terak 8510/c Info? In-Reply-To: <4CD51BBE.5050703@mail.msu.edu> References: <4CD4ACEF.60003@mail.msu.edu> <4CD4CC23.4000503@bitsavers.org> <4CD51BBE.5050703@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <4CD57E46.1050200@bitsavers.org> On 11/6/10 2:11 AM, Josh Dersch wrote: > http://yahozna.dyndns.org/scratch/terak/ > http://yahozna.dyndns.org/scratch/terak/IMG_0512.JPG main difference I see is the keyboard and monitor connector panel. It's probably a bit of a hassle, but could you get a picture of the guts of the keyboard/montor back panel assembly? The keyboard looks like a Keytronics with a serial interface, similar to the ones we used on the later AED terminals. I'm guessing they added a deserializer to the back panel assembly. From g at kurico.com Sat Nov 6 11:52:45 2010 From: g at kurico.com (g at kurico.com) Date: Sat, 06 Nov 2010 12:52:45 -0400 Subject: FF: 2 Maxspeed MaxStations Message-ID: <4ff7d3aca552b800fd1a3f1d726054a0@mail.mxes.net> Anyone interested in two MaxSpeed MaxStations? One is a SVGA MaxStation and the other a VGA MaxStation. The SVGA version uses a PS2 kb connector, the VGA version an AT kb connector. Sorry, no power supplies. These are free, I'd prefer not to ship, but if I have no local takers then the buyer to pay shipping costs. I'm in Austin TX. These will go to Goodwill if no one is interested. I'm in the very very early stages of shedding the majority of my collection and this is just the start. From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Sat Nov 6 14:00:30 2010 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Sat, 06 Nov 2010 12:00:30 -0700 Subject: Terak 8510/c Info? In-Reply-To: <4CD57E46.1050200@bitsavers.org> References: <4CD4ACEF.60003@mail.msu.edu> <4CD4CC23.4000503@bitsavers.org> <4CD51BBE.5050703@mail.msu.edu> <4CD57E46.1050200@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4CD5A5CE.9060305@mail.msu.edu> On 11/6/2010 9:11 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > On 11/6/10 2:11 AM, Josh Dersch wrote: > >> http://yahozna.dyndns.org/scratch/terak/ >> > > http://yahozna.dyndns.org/scratch/terak/IMG_0512.JPG > > main difference I see is the keyboard and monitor connector panel. > > It's probably a bit of a hassle, but could you get a picture of the > guts of the keyboard/montor back panel assembly? The keyboard looks > like a Keytronics with a serial interface, similar to the ones we > used on the later AED terminals. > > I'm guessing they added a deserializer to the back panel assembly. > > Sure thing. I'm out of town this weekend, but I'll take some pictures early next week. (I need to take the thing apart anyway to get all the bits of old foam out of it.) The good news is the power supply seems to be OK (the voltages are actually listed on a panel on the inside I didn't see the first time I went over it.) The bad news is it doesn't do much when I power it on. It blinks the drive access light in a regular pattern (I'm wagering this is a diagnostic code) but that's it. I don't suppose anyone knows what these codes are? Josh From legalize at xmission.com Sat Nov 6 16:27:08 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sat, 06 Nov 2010 15:27:08 -0600 Subject: Terak 8510/c Info? In-Reply-To: <201011061323.oA6DN3Op084629@billY.EZWIND.NET> References: <4CD4ACEF.60003@mail.msu.edu> <4CD4CC23.4000503@bitsavers.org> <201011061323.oA6DN3Op084629@billY.EZWIND.NET> Message-ID: In article <201011061323.oA6DN3Op084629 at billY.EZWIND.NET>, John Foust writes: > And of course clean out the rotted foam. Did you plug it in? Not yet. Its on the list to be reconditioned. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Sat Nov 6 16:30:30 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sat, 06 Nov 2010 15:30:30 -0600 Subject: Terak 8510/c Info? In-Reply-To: <4CD57E46.1050200@bitsavers.org> References: <4CD4ACEF.60003@mail.msu.edu> <4CD4CC23.4000503@bitsavers.org> <4CD51BBE.5050703@mail.msu.edu> <4CD57E46.1050200@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: In article <4CD57E46.1050200 at bitsavers.org>, Al Kossow writes: > It's probably a bit of a hassle, but could you get a picture of the > guts of the keyboard/montor back panel assembly? I can do that for my system if it would help. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Nov 6 14:53:26 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2010 19:53:26 +0000 (GMT) Subject: DiscFerret: First working hardware, firmware and microcode! In-Reply-To: <4CD4A1AE.4090404@gmail.com> from "Jules Richardson" at Nov 5, 10 07:30:38 pm Message-ID: > > Tony Duell wrote: > > It is, indeed. I suspect ST412s are more common than ST406s though That > > is not one mf my typos. There is an ST406, it's a single-platter, 2 head > > thing, otherwise the same as the ST412. > > ST406's are very rare things IME. Even ST506's aren't that common... :-) I know I have one ST406. It's the drive used in the HP9133V unit. The HP9133XV (which I also have) has an ST419 in it. The ST406 is very similar to the ST412, to the extent that the main PCB is the saem (maybe with slightly diffferent jumpering or components around the head selection area). The ST419 has a somewhat different PCB. [Diskferret] > > [1] I will admit I've not looked at the design yet. Mainly because I have > > no way of using one. I fully appreciate that with the amount of data that > > has to be transfered back to the host machine, you need a fast modern > > interface like USB. But I don't hava suitable host. > > I think I would have much preferred SCSI over USB, but you can't please all of > the people etc. and it's still an astounding piece of work. I totally agree. > Whilst most things annoy me unless I can get all the service info, I suppose > I'm just less picky about PCs - I don't mind treating them as a black box, > unlike many other things. That is your choice. I am not at all happy about doing that. In any case, a modern PC is an expense I can't afford at the moment. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Nov 6 15:03:54 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2010 20:03:54 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Amstrad 3in disc drive troubleshooting In-Reply-To: <4CD4A94D.6060306@philpem.me.uk> from "Philip Pemberton" at Nov 6, 10 01:03:09 am Message-ID: > > On 05/11/10 22:53, Tony Duell wrote: > > I have scheamtics that might be related. The main ASIC seems to be an > > M51017Ap in both cases. > > Yep. I think I might have the same schematics. Amstrad PCW 8256/8512 > Service Manual? As it happens, yes. The scheamtics of at least the single-head drive appear in other Amstrad service manuals too. > > > I an't see why it would do that. According to the schematic, the LED is > > driven by pin 44 of the ASIC, have you stuck a 'scope o nther to see if > > the half-brightness is actually a square wave? > > Not yet, no. Although somebody else has confirmed it/s normal behaviour on the PCW. > > > If getting the power lines backwads does do damage, is it psosigle that > > the otehr drive was damaged before you got it? > > I'd go with "probable". They were sold to me as "spares or repair, no > idea if they even work." Aha...This remionds me ao a character I saw at a couple of radio rallies many yearsa ago. He had a pile of working hard drives. And another pile of ''untensted' hard drives. Hmmm... I wonder if theprevious owner plugged them into a PC power supply and then discovered that either they didn't work, or somebody told him he'd probably done some daamge, so you ended up with them > I haven't checked the centre tap. I've just found a test/adjustment > procedure in the Amstrad manual which suggests that the ASIC tries to > float the head in relation to ground, but that the absolute voltage over > the head is zero unless it's in use. That might explain the strange > measurements. The scehamtic of the double-head drive gives the pin votlages for the ASIC. It owuld appear those are the votlages you'd get if the drive is powered, but not conencted to a controller (all inputs pulled high). May be worth checking the ones around the read section. > > > Anything on TP1,2 on the drive PCB? Those are the differential outputs of > > the read amplifier, used for head alignment. > > Nope, nothing on either. It does sound like head or ASIC problems... > >> - Heads. Dirty, out of alignment or otherwise completely pooched. > > > > Well, clean the heads!. > > Done that (with a cotton bud and Servisol IPA-170 Isopropyl Alcohol). No > change in behaviour, no dirt on the cotton bud I used to clean them. OK. You';ve orblaby elimniated that as a cause. > > > Check the DC resistance (should be very low between the 4 wires going > > to a head). > > On the to-do list (it's a bit late to be getting out the DMM at this > time of day!) You put the DMM away? That suprises me ;-) > Good point. > > Do you have the schemciats? > > I have the PCW8256/8512 service manual, the 8256-only service manual and > the 9512 service manual as PDFs, which include the drive schematics. Right I haev some of those as paper manuals. I think I would start by checking the pin voltages on the ASIC, and in particular see what the head cnetre-taps are doing. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Nov 6 16:14:18 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2010 21:14:18 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Amstrad 3in disc drive troubleshooting In-Reply-To: <4CD44922.11674.1EF5DE7@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Nov 5, 10 06:12:50 pm Message-ID: > > On 6 Nov 2010 at 1:03, Philip Pemberton wrote: > > > Yep. I think I might have the same schematics. Amstrad PCW 8256/8512 > > Service Manual? > > Got an 8256 here (those things should be as common as fleas in the > UK, I'd think. Getting a 120V 60Hz one here was a little less easy). The service manuals I have to hand make no reference to a 120V model. The PSU is a switcher, producing 350V DC (or so) from our 240V mains, and it would be easy to modify that to a voltage doubler for 120V mains input, but the smoothing capacitor is just a single componentm not 2 in series, so the changes would be more than in some other supplies. > > I've installed two 720K (Teac FD235F) 3.5" drives, both to get > something that will work with available media and also to get more > storage. The Joyce uses single-sided 3" disks. With a simple one- Actually, the standard configuration has drive 0 as a single-head 40 cylinder drive taking 'flippy' disks and the optional drive 1 as a double-head 80 cylidner drive. The latter was much the same logically as a noraml 720K drive. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Nov 6 16:15:55 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2010 21:15:55 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Fragility in the floppy world (was Re: TRS-80 Model II Manuals) In-Reply-To: <20101105205526.A72304@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Nov 5, 10 08:59:36 pm Message-ID: > > > Oh, go ahead... But I beleive that cucifixion has never been used as a > > > > suicide method. > > > No. I've tried it dozens of times; there's just no way you can hammer in > > > the last nail. > On Fri, 5 Nov 2010, Tony Duell wrote: > > I have this image of 4 of those butane-powered nailers used by builders > > suitably arranged nad with a remote triggger facility. You get your arms > > and legs in the right places, somehow press the switch and bang... > > You might be able to get away with one of the Sears "Nextec" cordless > electric hammers. Except that I am in the wrong country for this. > > > No I am NOT thinking of trying this. > So, the technique remains untested. Do you _really_ want me to try it? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Nov 6 16:19:39 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2010 21:19:39 +0000 (GMT) Subject: DiscFerret: First working hardware, firmware and microcode! In-Reply-To: from "Gene Buckle" at Nov 5, 10 09:32:50 pm Message-ID: [Action replay video recording on hard disks) > Ampex was the pioneer in this particular field I think. That does not suprise me... Ampex did a lot of interesting stuff with magnetic recording. [Incidentally I assume the pun on 'field' is untintentional :-)] > Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical > minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which > holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd > by the clean end. As I've mentioned before, I really must contact the appropriate governement department and ask what the politically correct term is for the radiation emitted by a perfect absorber at temperature T :-) -tony From cclist at sydex.com Sat Nov 6 17:02:25 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 06 Nov 2010 15:02:25 -0700 Subject: Amstrad 3in disc drive troubleshooting In-Reply-To: References: <4CD44922.11674.1EF5DE7@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Nov 5, 10 06:12:50 pm, Message-ID: <4CD56E01.21774.146B95B@cclist.sydex.com> On 6 Nov 2010 at 21:14, Tony Duell wrote: > The service manuals I have to hand make no reference to a 120V model. Mine definitely says 120V 60Hz 1.1A on the back plate. Made in Korea, FCC ID A7R9K2PC-4A. No mention of Amstrad UK, but rather Amstrad International (USA) Inc., 3202 Doolittle Drive, Northbrook, IL, 60062. The curious thing is that the label refers to it as a "monitor". No reference to it being a computer of any sort. > Actually, the standard configuration has drive 0 as a single-head 40 > cylinder drive taking 'flippy' disks and the optional drive 1 as a > double-head 80 cylidner drive. The latter was much the same logically > as a noraml 720K drive. Yes, but that's useless if what you want to do is boot from a 720K and have 2x720K of floppy storage online. --Chuck From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Sat Nov 6 17:03:33 2010 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sat, 06 Nov 2010 18:03:33 -0400 Subject: CyberVision 2000 Message-ID: <04b501cb7dfe$74a9c780$5dfd5680$@sudbrink@verizon.net> Hi, Anyone know anything about this computer? Google reveals almost nothing. According to an email I just received, it was sold in the mid 1970's in department stores around Washington, DC. Email claims before the TRS-80 and Apple II. Thanks, Bill From menadeau at comcast.net Sat Nov 6 18:10:17 2010 From: menadeau at comcast.net (Michael Nadeau) Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2010 19:10:17 -0400 Subject: CyberVision 2000 References: <04b501cb7dfe$74a9c780$5dfd5680$@sudbrink@verizon.net> Message-ID: <400D056A899846E2BA2C1845D4185766@Mike> It was sold by Montgomery Ward, and I believe it is a repackaged RCA system (uses the 1802). I have scans of literature if you want more info. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Sudbrink" To: Sent: Saturday, November 06, 2010 6:03 PM Subject: CyberVision 2000 > Hi, > > > > Anyone know anything about this computer? Google reveals almost nothing. > > According to an email I just received, it was sold in the mid 1970's in > department > > stores around Washington, DC. Email claims before the TRS-80 and Apple > II. > > > > Thanks, > > Bill > > From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Sat Nov 6 19:46:41 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun, 07 Nov 2010 00:46:41 +0000 Subject: Amstrad 3in disc drive troubleshooting In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CD5F6F1.6060204@philpem.me.uk> On 06/11/10 20:03, Tony Duell wrote: > Aha...This remionds me ao a character I saw at a couple of radio rallies > many yearsa ago. He had a pile of working hard drives. And another pile > of ''untensted' hard drives. Hmmm... Read as: "I've tested all of these, but I'm selling the broken ones as 'untested'." Then you get the fiercely honest ones -- I approached a seller at a radio rally, and asked about some VRLA batteries he was selling. "Ah, they're only a couple of months old -- brand new. Serial number's here, and manufacture date here. Charged them up half-way the other day, hang on, I've got a multimeter here somewhere.... Oh, and I'll wire a car headlamp over one if you'd like to see it running under load..." > I wonder if theprevious owner plugged them into a PC power supply and > then discovered that either they didn't work, or somebody told him he'd > probably done some daamge, so you ended up with them Indeed. I've got a lead on a pair of double-sided drives from a PCW9512. They're basically the same drive design, but without the write protect sense pin (optical sensing!), a white front panel and a slightly different mounting cage. Fingers crossed... >>> Anything on TP1,2 on the drive PCB? Those are the differential outputs of >>> the read amplifier, used for head alignment. >> >> Nope, nothing on either. > > It does sound like head or ASIC problems... :( Both of which would require a supply of Unobtainium and Magic Smoke (not to mention the fabled Magic Smoke Inserter) to repair or replace. I dare say these drives are going to become mechanical parts mules... >> On the to-do list (it's a bit late to be getting out the DMM at this >> time of day!) > > You put the DMM away? That suprises me ;-) I have a Fluke 25 that lives in the cupboard, but I'm too lazy to wheel my chair over to the cupboard to get it :) The Agilent is downstairs. I'm trying to figure out why DiscFerret #2 is having power-backfeed issues (the SENSE line from the USB port is backfeeding onto +3V3 and Blowing Stuff Up.. and I've ruled out a hard-short). > I think I would start by checking the pin voltages on the ASIC, and in > particular see what the head cnetre-taps are doing. -- In write mode -- I'm seeing around 2V on all three pins of the head -- 'top', 'bottom' and the centre tap. If I switch to AC coupling, 200mV/div, I see what looks like a very noisy sine wave on the centre tap, and then the coils have the same noisy sine, plus an alternating pulse. If I subtract the CT from either coil, I can see the magnetic pulses. These look like the 0-180deg (positive going) part of a sinewave, then a gap, then the 180-360deg (negative going) part. -- In read mode -- Not a sausage at 200mV. Dropping to 50mV/div, I can see a heck of a lot of noise, but nothing that looks remotely like the 125kHz data I fed it. There's nothing interesting on TP1, TP2 and TP3 either. With drive stopped: TP1 -- 258.45kHz sine, ~200mV amplitude TP2 -- same sine wave, 180 degrees out of phase TP3 -- ground Adding the two channels together gets me a flat line with a bit of noise. Subtracting (per the instructions in the service manual) gets me a 400mV pk-pk sine... It's as if the ASIC were oscillating internally... -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Sat Nov 6 19:54:11 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun, 07 Nov 2010 00:54:11 +0000 Subject: Amstrad 3in disc drive troubleshooting In-Reply-To: <4CD5F6F1.6060204@philpem.me.uk> References: <4CD5F6F1.6060204@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4CD5F8B3.5090100@philpem.me.uk> On 07/11/10 00:46, Philip Pemberton wrote: > There's nothing interesting on TP1, TP2 and TP3 either. With drive stopped: > TP1 -- 258.45kHz sine, ~200mV amplitude > TP2 -- same sine wave, 180 degrees out of phase > TP3 -- ground I should also mention that when writing, in MATH ADD mode I get a ~1.5V (2V if you count the undershoot) square wave. Source signals (TP1 and TP2) are oddly shaped spikes... almost a square wave but.. not quite. Stop writing and the signal vanishes. -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From curt at atarimuseum.com Sat Nov 6 21:44:56 2010 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Sat, 06 Nov 2010 22:44:56 -0400 Subject: CyberVision 2000 In-Reply-To: <400D056A899846E2BA2C1845D4185766@Mike> References: <04b501cb7dfe$74a9c780$5dfd5680$@sudbrink@verizon.net> <400D056A899846E2BA2C1845D4185766@Mike> Message-ID: <4CD612A8.8090008@atarimuseum.com> RCA Studio II ? Michael Nadeau wrote: > It was sold by Montgomery Ward, and I believe it is a repackaged RCA > system (uses the 1802). I have scans of literature if you want more info. > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Sudbrink" > > To: > Sent: Saturday, November 06, 2010 6:03 PM > Subject: CyberVision 2000 > > >> Hi, >> >> >> >> Anyone know anything about this computer? Google reveals almost >> nothing. >> >> According to an email I just received, it was sold in the mid 1970's in >> department >> >> stores around Washington, DC. Email claims before the TRS-80 and >> Apple II. >> >> >> >> Thanks, >> >> Bill >> >> > > > From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Nov 6 22:00:45 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2010 20:00:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Amstrad 3in disc drive troubleshooting In-Reply-To: <4CD5F6F1.6060204@philpem.me.uk> References: <4CD5F6F1.6060204@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <20101106194947.D11361@shell.lmi.net> On Sun, 7 Nov 2010, Philip Pemberton wrote: > Read as: "I've tested all of these, but I'm selling the broken ones as > 'untested'." close The "untested" ones are the ones that his "technicians" were unable to repair, and may be missing parts that his "technicians" "board-swapped" into other machines. The "tested" ones are those where the motor turned and the LED lit. Or did so after his "technicians" swapped parts. You expected a surface scan? -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From rborsuk at colourfull.com Sat Nov 6 23:21:59 2010 From: rborsuk at colourfull.com (Robert Borsuk) Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2010 00:21:59 -0400 Subject: CyberVision 2000 In-Reply-To: <4CD612A8.8090008@atarimuseum.com> References: <04b501cb7dfe$74a9c780$5dfd5680$@sudbrink@verizon.net> <400D056A899846E2BA2C1845D4185766@Mike> <4CD612A8.8090008@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: Found the following, one line blurb: It shows a Cybervision 2001, which appears to be a repackaged Cosmac Elf Rob On Nov 6, 2010, at 10:44 PM, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > RCA Studio II ? > > > Michael Nadeau wrote: >> It was sold by Montgomery Ward, and I believe it is a repackaged RCA system (uses the 1802). I have scans of literature if you want more info. >> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Sudbrink" >> To: >> Sent: Saturday, November 06, 2010 6:03 PM >> Subject: CyberVision 2000 >> >> >>> Hi, >>> >>> >>> >>> Anyone know anything about this computer? Google reveals almost nothing. >>> >>> According to an email I just received, it was sold in the mid 1970's in >>> department >>> >>> stores around Washington, DC. Email claims before the TRS-80 and Apple II. >>> >>> >>> >>> Thanks, >>> >>> Bill >>> >>> >> >> >> Robert Borsuk rborsuk at colourfull.com Colourfull Creations http://www.colourfull.com From snhirsch at gmail.com Sat Nov 6 10:15:41 2010 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2010 11:15:41 -0400 (EDT) Subject: commercial scsi target mode product In-Reply-To: <4CD446B0.2040301@bitsavers.org> References: <4CD446B0.2040301@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Fri, 5 Nov 2010, Al Kossow wrote: > > http://www.virtualscsi.com/ Yes, but the fact that they have absolutely zero information on pricing leads me to believe that this is a true "..you can't afford it, kid". -- From jws at jwsss.com Sun Nov 7 01:45:47 2010 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Sun, 07 Nov 2010 00:45:47 -0700 Subject: Amstrad 3in disc drive troubleshooting In-Reply-To: <4CD5F6F1.6060204@philpem.me.uk> References: <4CD5F6F1.6060204@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4CD6592B.2020304@jwsss.com> On 11/6/2010 5:46 PM, Philip Pemberton wrote: > On 06/11/10 20:03, Tony Duell wrote: >> Aha...This remionds me ao a character I saw at a couple of radio rallies >> many yearsa ago. He had a pile of working hard drives. And another pile >> of ''untensted' hard drives. Hmmm... > > Read as: "I've tested all of these, but I'm selling the broken ones as > 'untested'." > > Then you get the fiercely honest ones -- I approached a seller at a > radio rally, and asked about some VRLA batteries he was selling. > "Ah, they're only a couple of months old -- brand new. Serial number's > here, and manufacture date here. Charged them up half-way the other > day, hang on, I've got a multimeter here somewhere.... Oh, and I'll > wire a car headlamp over one if you'd like to see it running under > load..." > There's a white haired "gentleman" who still shows up at the TRW/Northrup Grumman and ACP swap meets who has been around for 20 years. I recall when he was starting out that he would be rude and abusive to his mob of kids, and go around and buy absolute crap drives. I discovered him selling them a few months later as "untested" at swap meets with his kids running the booth. I ran across him as he moved up in the ripoff game buying in bulk from guys who would bring clearly labeld "bad" and the same packaging would show up as working or otherwise with the drives scrubbed of the markings. When I found him at that time, I asked whether the prices were at scrap aluminum or higher. I do know he was banned from ACP, but still see him ripping of people at TRW. You gotta be careful who you buy from. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Nov 7 04:09:59 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk) Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2010 05:09:59 -0500 Subject: Any ideas what chip goes in this socket? Message-ID: <380-22010110710959509@M2W110.mail2web.com> The device [1] that's currently all over my bench has an empty 28 pin DIL socket on one of the PCBs. It's alongside a 27C256 EPROM and 43256 RAM, and has a similar pinout. In fact the pinout is the standard JEDEC one for 28 pin memory devices (with A13 on pin 26, WE on pin 27, OE on pin 22, etc) with one exception. Pin 1 is not A14, it appears to be an output, linked to an interrupt pin on the 80C85 that links to the aforementioned memory devices and this socket). Oh, and to an input port pin. Any ideas? My first thoughts were an E2PROM or simular, with a ready output on pin 1, or a RTC/memory device with an interrupt output on pin 1, but I can't find any obviuos candidates. [1] A telephone network simulator. OK, it's not a classic computer, but I will be using it to test and demonstrate classic computer modems, it's well over 10 years old, and contains 6 microprocessors... -tony -------------------------------------------------------------------- myhosting.com - Premium Microsoft? Windows? and Linux web and application hosting - http://link.myhosting.com/myhosting From jfoust at threedee.com Sun Nov 7 10:18:00 2010 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun, 07 Nov 2010 10:18:00 -0600 Subject: commercial scsi target mode product In-Reply-To: References: <4CD446B0.2040301@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <201011071620.oA7GKFUd033238@billY.EZWIND.NET> At 09:15 AM 11/6/2010, Steven Hirsch wrote: >On Fri, 5 Nov 2010, Al Kossow wrote: >>http://www.virtualscsi.com/ > >Yes, but the fact that they have absolutely zero information on pricing leads me to believe that this is a true "..you can't afford it, kid". That and the 1995-era Frontpage web design. :-) Metatags are "SCSI Target Mode, SCSI device emulation, SCSI Target, virtual scsi, SCSI, Roland, Roland SCSI, Roland CD, Roland backup, VS-2480, VS-1680, Korg, AKAI, Yamaha" if that gives us any hints to his target market for his products. From his "About" page, though, it looks like we could accord this fellow some SCSI respect. He probably doesn't need to use active termination - just a laying of hands will do. - John From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Nov 7 13:47:05 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2010 19:47:05 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Amstrad 3in disc drive troubleshooting In-Reply-To: <4CD56E01.21774.146B95B@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Nov 6, 10 03:02:25 pm Message-ID: > > On 6 Nov 2010 at 21:14, Tony Duell wrote: > > > The service manuals I have to hand make no reference to a 120V model. > > Mine definitely says 120V 60Hz 1.1A on the back plate. Made in OK, I beleive you :-). > Korea, FCC ID A7R9K2PC-4A. No mention of Amstrad UK, but rather > Amstrad International (USA) Inc., 3202 Doolittle Drive, Northbrook, > IL, 60062. The curious thing is that the label refers to it as a > "monitor". No reference to it being a computer of any sort. Odd. I assume the main logic board is much the same as the UK version, but the PSU/monitor board is different. Probably just differences in the mains input circuitry. The UK model uses and STK7308 switching regulator hybrid module. Do you happen to know if yours does too? Does it have 60 Hz vertcial sync? In these machines, the video and syncs are generated bu the Amstrad 40028 gate array (IC 101 on the logic board) which also contains the trivial bootstrap ROM (thre is no seprate ROM or EPROM on the logic board). So I would assume that if the sync rate is changed, this chip has ot be something different. > > > Actually, the standard configuration has drive 0 as a single-head 40 > > cylinder drive taking 'flippy' disks and the optional drive 1 as a > > double-head 80 cylidner drive. The latter was much the same logically > > as a noraml 720K drive. > > Yes, but that's useless if what you want to do is boot from a 720K > and have 2x720K of floppy storage online. Sure... I always found it strange that the standard 2-drive configuration had 2 identical-looking incomatible drives. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Nov 7 14:06:56 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2010 20:06:56 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Amstrad 3in disc drive troubleshooting In-Reply-To: <4CD5F8B3.5090100@philpem.me.uk> from "Philip Pemberton" at Nov 7, 10 00:54:11 am Message-ID: > > On 07/11/10 00:46, Philip Pemberton wrote: > > There's nothing interesting on TP1, TP2 and TP3 either. With drive stopped: > > TP1 -- 258.45kHz sine, ~200mV amplitude > > TP2 -- same sine wave, 180 degrees out of phase > > TP3 -- ground > > I should also mention that when writing, in MATH ADD mode I get a ~1.5V > (2V if you count the undershoot) square wave. Source signals (TP1 and > TP2) are oddly shaped spikes... almost a square wave but.. not quite. > Stop writing and the signal vanishes. That could well be right. The read amplaifier is tryign to process the signal being sent to the head in write mode. I assume you've tried both sides of the doubler-head drive... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Nov 7 14:04:26 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2010 20:04:26 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Amstrad 3in disc drive troubleshooting In-Reply-To: <4CD5F6F1.6060204@philpem.me.uk> from "Philip Pemberton" at Nov 7, 10 00:46:41 am Message-ID: > > On 06/11/10 20:03, Tony Duell wrote: > > Aha...This remionds me ao a character I saw at a couple of radio rallies > > many yearsa ago. He had a pile of working hard drives. And another pile > > of ''untensted' hard drives. Hmmm... > > Read as: "I've tested all of these, but I'm selling the broken ones as > 'untested'." I suspect, and suspected at the time, that you areperfectly correct :-) Before we get another flamewar, I will point out that just about every seller I've dealt with at radio rallies has been extremely honest. If something doesn't work, they say so. If it's missing important parts, they say that too. I feel that the enthusiast-type radio amateurs are more likely to be totally honest than the traders (the former don't want to cheat a fellow ham), but to be fair I've never had what I consider a bad deal from any of them. > Then you get the fiercely honest ones -- I approached a seller at a > radio rally, and asked about some VRLA batteries he was selling. > "Ah, they're only a couple of months old -- brand new. Serial number's > here, and manufacture date here. Charged them up half-way the other day, > hang on, I've got a multimeter here somewhere.... Oh, and I'll wire a > car headlamp over one if you'd like to see it running under load..." I've met plenty of sellers who are happy to let you remove covers and have a look inside. And I rememebr a chap with a box of assorted valves who provided a multimeter so you could at least check if the heater was OK. > > > I wonder if theprevious owner plugged them into a PC power supply and > > then discovered that either they didn't work, or somebody told him he'd > > probably done some daamge, so you ended up with them > > Indeed. I've got a lead on a pair of double-sided drives from a PCW9512. > They're basically the same drive design, but without the write protect > sense pin (optical sensing!), a white front panel and a slightly > different mounting cage. Odd that the schematics in the PCW8256 manaul show an optical write protect sensor (look at the circuitry connected to pin 42 of the ASIC). > > Fingers crossed... Indeed. > >> On the to-do list (it's a bit late to be getting out the DMM at this > >> time of day!) > > > > You put the DMM away? That suprises me ;-) > > I have a Fluke 25 that lives in the cupboard, but I'm too lazy to wheel > my chair over to the cupboard to get it :) Ah, my multimeter lives on the workbench. At the moment, it's a horrible analogue thi9ng becuase I still can't find a digitial meter that I like the look of. If I wanted a bench instrument, it would be easy (although paying for it wouldn't be..), but a nice handheld one doesn't seem to exist. > I'm seeing around 2V on all three pins of the head -- 'top', 'bottom' > and the centre tap. If I switch to AC coupling, 200mV/div, I see what > looks like a very noisy sine wave on the centre tap, and then the coils Trhis is for the selected head? That can't be right!~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > have the same noisy sine, plus an alternating pulse. If I subtract the > CT from either coil, I can see the magnetic pulses. These look like the > 0-180deg (positive going) part of a sinewave, then a gap, then the > 180-360deg (negative going) part. > > -- In read mode -- > > Not a sausage at 200mV. Dropping to 50mV/div, I can see a heck of a lot > of noise, but nothing that looks remotely like the 125kHz data I fed it. > > There's nothing interesting on TP1, TP2 and TP3 either. With drive stopped: > TP1 -- 258.45kHz sine, ~200mV amplitude > TP2 -- same sine wave, 180 degrees out of phase > TP3 -- ground > Adding the two channels together gets me a flat line with a bit of > noise. Subtracting (per the instructions in the service manual) gets me > a 400mV pk-pk sine... > > It's as if the ASIC were oscillating internally... It may well do this. There's probablhy an AGC circuit that cranks up the gain if there's no signal from the head. I asusme the head windings are continuous, and that the heads are actually touching the disk... But that head CT signal sounds totally wrong. -tony From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Sun Nov 7 14:51:00 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun, 07 Nov 2010 20:51:00 +0000 Subject: Amstrad 3in disc drive troubleshooting In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CD71134.50106@philpem.me.uk> On 07/11/10 20:06, Tony Duell wrote: > That could well be right. The read amplaifier is tryign to process the > signal being sent to the head in write mode. > > I assume you've tried both sides of the doubler-head drive... Indeed I have. -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Sun Nov 7 15:28:20 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun, 07 Nov 2010 21:28:20 +0000 Subject: Amstrad 3in disc drive troubleshooting In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CD719F4.2060001@philpem.me.uk> On 07/11/10 20:04, Tony Duell wrote: > I suspect, and suspected at the time, that you areperfectly correct :-) Well as I said, I'm bidding on another set of drives from a 9512. Hopefully this seller is a bit more honest. I'll be fishing the drivebelts out of the two drives once I can prove they're shot, but I'll probably keep them for mechanical spares (read: spindle motor). > Before we get another flamewar, I will point out that just about every > seller I've dealt with at radio rallies has been extremely honest. If > something doesn't work, they say so. If it's missing important parts, > they say that too. I can say the same -- I've yet to meet a dishonest seller at a radio rally. A few traders have an over-inflated idea of the value of their stock, but you see that *everywhere*... > I've met plenty of sellers who are happy to let you remove covers and > have a look inside. Seen that, too. "Interested in that, sir? It won't power up, but it's full of mixers, filters and other bits. Bound to be something good in there -- just let me get my screwdriver and I'll show you!" > And I rememebr a chap with a box of assorted valves > who provided a multimeter so you could at least check if the heater was > OK. One of these days I'm going to have to buy a couple of triodes to play around with... "valve amplifier" is on the long-term projects list, as is "fix that X-Y display you got half way through building". I was going to build a few front-ends for that -- NBTV, CVBS, variable amplitude X-Y and maybe an FPGA version of Asteroids and Battlezone. Unfortunately I had issues with noise -- the trace on the DG7/32 shook like a jelly in an earthquake. >> Indeed. I've got a lead on a pair of double-sided drives from a PCW9512. >> They're basically the same drive design, but without the write protect >> sense pin (optical sensing!), a white front panel and a slightly >> different mounting cage. > > Odd that the schematics in the PCW8256 manaul show an optical write > protect sensor (look at the circuitry connected to pin 42 of the ASIC). Huh. This one has a mechanical switch. Maybe the SS drive with the mech switch is out of a Spectrum +3 or CPC, and the DS drive is out of a later PCW? The DS drive shines a light at the disc if memory serves. Black for "protected" (i.e. tab pushed in), reflected white for "unprotected". > Ah, my multimeter lives on the workbench. I haven't got a workbench, but I've appropriated the kitchen table for DiscFerret manufacturing :) Though it's currently taking me a day to make and debug each DF. I really, *really* need to get that down a bit. "Solder paste stencils" and "a tub of solder paste" are on the shopping list... > At the moment, it's a horrible > analogue thi9ng becuase I still can't find a digitial meter that I like > the look of. If I wanted a bench instrument, it would be easy (although > paying for it wouldn't be..), but a nice handheld one doesn't seem to exist. Seems you can get a cheap junky DMM or an expensive, all singing all dancing DMM. There doesn't seem to be much in the middle these days. >> It's as if the ASIC were oscillating internally... > > It may well do this. There's probablhy an AGC circuit that cranks up the > gain if there's no signal from the head. > > I asusme the head windings are continuous, and that the heads are > actually touching the disk... > > But that head CT signal sounds totally wrong. "Hmm." I'll try and get some scope traces later -- but first I need to find a USB thumb-drive that's small enough for the DSO to accept... -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Sun Nov 7 16:19:00 2010 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 07 Nov 2010 16:19:00 -0600 Subject: Amstrad 3in disc drive troubleshooting In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CD725D4.8020403@gmail.com> Tony Duell wrote: >> On 06/11/10 20:03, Tony Duell wrote: >>> Aha...This remionds me ao a character I saw at a couple of radio rallies >>> many yearsa ago. He had a pile of working hard drives. And another pile >>> of ''untensted' hard drives. Hmmm... >> Read as: "I've tested all of these, but I'm selling the broken ones as >> 'untested'." > > I suspect, and suspected at the time, that you areperfectly correct :-) > > Before we get another flamewar, I will point out that just about every > seller I've dealt with at radio rallies has been extremely honest. If > something doesn't work, they say so. If it's missing important parts, > they say that too. I get a bit fanatical about testing anything that I'm parting with - I don't like the idea of the recipient finding a problem that I could have found myself and told them about. That's always meant I've had a pile of "extensively tested" stuff, and a pile of "untested because I haven't had the time". I suppose it's not impossible to encounter that situation at a radio rally, car boot sale etc. although I must admit that it's tempting (as a buyer) to merge the sold-as-seen and I'm-going-to-get-screwed categories :-) > Ah, my multimeter lives on the workbench. Mine's always bouncing between house, workshop and garage - I'm rapidly coming to the conclusion that I need three of everything :-( >> I'm seeing around 2V on all three pins of the head -- 'top', 'bottom' >> and the centre tap. If I switch to AC coupling, 200mV/div, I see what >> looks like a very noisy sine wave on the centre tap, and then the coils > > Trhis is for the selected head? That can't be right!~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ The behavior should presumably be pretty much the same for a 3.5" or 5.25" drive (depending on media coercivity - I don't recall what 3" is now); maybe it's worthwhile Phil sanity-checking observed readings against a drive that he does have around, if he doesn't have a known-good 3" drive handy? cheers Jules From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Sun Nov 7 16:27:42 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza) Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2010 20:27:42 -0200 Subject: W00T! SGI is in da house! :oD Message-ID: Well, this is more than a child?s dream. This THE child?s dream :D Got today an Ozone with 1 proc, 768MB RAM and no hard disks :)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))) It is working, I already downloaded the Irix install media and found some 36GB HDs that seems to fit :D Just want to share it with you :D :D :D I?m so happy!!! It may be a toy, but I ALWAYS wanted to have a SGI computer :D I even got the original granite SGI keyboard. So bad I wasn?t able to find the matching mouse :( Now I just need to find a proper sled (at least one) for the hard disks. I think I can order one from ebay. W00T!!! I?ll play DOOM on that!!! :D :D :D Uhuuuu! :D Alexandre (happy as a child on xmas with a brand new toy :D) (photos soon, as soon as I have some free time) From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Sun Nov 7 16:30:18 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza) Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2010 20:30:18 -0200 Subject: A3311A SCSI hard drive enclosure - Sleds? Message-ID: Well, incluiding the HUGE pack of hardware I got today (and the SGI =D) I got an A3311A SCSI hard drive enclosure from HP. How hard is it to find drive sleds? It has three, a pair of 9,1GB drive and a 18GB drive. I want to find at least four drive sleds (ideally 5) so I can put my 4 36GB drives on it, and make it avaiable for the SGI, Ultra 60 or HP9000 BTW, is there such a thing like a SCSI selector, so I can direct the scsi array for one computer or another? Thanks Alexandre From pontus at Update.UU.SE Sun Nov 7 16:50:02 2010 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2010 23:50:02 +0100 Subject: W00T! SGI is in da house! :oD In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20101107225002.GA4318@Update.UU.SE> Congratulations! Now you will have to join nekochan.net ! On Sun, Nov 07, 2010 at 08:27:42PM -0200, Alexandre Souza wrote: > Well, this is more than a child?s dream. This THE child?s dream :D > > Got today an Ozone with 1 proc, 768MB RAM and no hard disks > :)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))) > > It is working, I already downloaded the Irix install media and found some > 36GB HDs that seems to fit :D > > Just want to share it with you :D :D :D I?m so happy!!! It may be a toy, but > I ALWAYS wanted to have a SGI computer :D > > I even got the original granite SGI keyboard. So bad I wasn?t able to find > the matching mouse :( > > Now I just need to find a proper sled (at least one) for the hard disks. I > think I can order one from ebay. > > W00T!!! I?ll play DOOM on that!!! :D :D :D > > Uhuuuu! :D > Alexandre > (happy as a child on xmas with a brand new toy :D) > (photos soon, as soon as I have some free time) From cclist at sydex.com Sun Nov 7 17:32:45 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 07 Nov 2010 15:32:45 -0800 Subject: Amstrad 3in disc drive troubleshooting In-Reply-To: References: <4CD56E01.21774.146B95B@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Nov 6, 10 03:02:25 pm, Message-ID: <4CD6C69D.13923.18C7161@cclist.sydex.com> On 7 Nov 2010 at 19:47, Tony Duell wrote: > The UK model uses and STK7308 switching regulator hybrid module. Do > you happen to know if yours does too? > > Does it have 60 Hz vertcial sync? In these machines, the video and > syncs are generated bu the Amstrad 40028 gate array (IC 101 on the > logic board) which also contains the trivial bootstrap ROM (thre is no > seprate ROM or EPROM on the logic board). So I would assume that if > the sync rate is changed, this chip has ot be something different. When I get a chance, I'll get a screwdriver out and check it, but my memory is that I used the standard (European) schematic to locate and replace one of those silly little circuit protectors in the power supply--with a picofuse of the same rating. That Amstrad gate array is the principal thing I really don't like about the machine. Undocumented and probably irreplaceable. Otherwise, a decent graphics display, lots of RAM, what's not to like? --Chuck From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Sun Nov 7 20:19:57 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Mon, 08 Nov 2010 02:19:57 +0000 Subject: W00T! SGI is in da house! :oD In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CD75E4D.5000702@philpem.me.uk> On 07/11/10 22:27, Alexandre Souza wrote: > Well, this is more than a child?s dream. This THE child?s dream :D > > Got today an Ozone with 1 proc, 768MB RAM and no hard disks Lucky dog! I've got my eye on the SGI Octane and the Sun Blade 2000 that Dan Williams listed as FTGH the other day, but I'm having a hell of a time sorting out collection... London to Leeds return train tickets are not cheap :-/ What I really need is to find someone nearby (i.e. London) who's doing a trip to the North of England (Yorkshire area ideally) in the next couple of weeks... -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com Sun Nov 7 21:11:50 2010 From: zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun, 07 Nov 2010 22:11:50 -0500 Subject: "Crosspost" of system rescue... Message-ID: <4CD76A76.5050802@30below.com> As seen on the CoCo list (hosted by MaltedMedia): http://five.pairlist.net/pipermail/coco/2010-November/052008.html In short: 2 each Gimix 6809 multiuser systems, SS-50 based. These are quite rare critters, it would be a shame to see them go. I put a reply on that list & will echo the sentiment here: The systems are in Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada. The owner says that shipping might be possible to the US *if* they arrange their own Customs brokerage. I'd be happy to help if I can, so even though I live in the US, I'm in a border town (I can see Canada from my bedroom window) so instead of dealing with Customs, if "the lucky rescuer" can arrange shipping to (or near, lets say 50km) Sault Ste. Marie, Ontario, Canada, I'll drive across the border, get the units, bring them into the US [1], and then reship them from the local UPS depot to their destination. [2] [1] As I'm fairly sure the units were made in the US, there *shouldn't* be any duty -- If there's any sticker or documentation that states the fact, that would be much easier to prove. [2] I reserve the right to look at the units for a few minutes -- I remember wanting one of these ever since I saw the ads in Rainbow & HotCoCo... I'll be sure to wear a bib, just in case I drool... ;-) It's much easier to deal with Customs in person, instead of "Hopefully the correct documentation (but probably not) taped to a box (but probably not) and waiting 2-3 weeks for Customs to actually find it (but probably not)." ;-) Winnipeg is about 13-14 hour drive (one way) from where I live, and my pocketbook won't stop hemorrhaging until next February (and something tells me Winnipeg in February ain't the most fun to drive...) so if this were next June, I could prolly find the time (and the $300 in gasoline/petrol) but he's indicated that his timeframe won't allow that. Just tryin' to spread the word, Roger "Merch" Merchberger From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Sun Nov 7 21:31:52 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2010 01:31:52 -0200 Subject: Saving a GPIB device References: <4CD76A76.5050802@30below.com> Message-ID: <067e01cb7ef7$c620c790$6700a8c0@portajara> Dear sirs, How hard it is to find a TMS9914A chip 75160 chip 75161 chip I need one of each for an old equipment rescue :) Thanks Alexandre From zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com Sun Nov 7 22:30:18 2010 From: zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun, 07 Nov 2010 23:30:18 -0500 Subject: Saving a GPIB device In-Reply-To: <067e01cb7ef7$c620c790$6700a8c0@portajara> References: <4CD76A76.5050802@30below.com> <067e01cb7ef7$c620c790$6700a8c0@portajara> Message-ID: <4CD77CDA.70500@30below.com> On 11/07/2010 10:31 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > > Dear sirs, > How hard it is to find a > TMS9914A chip > 75160 chip > 75161 chip > > I need one of each for an old equipment rescue :) Well, there's some "kinda" good news... Digi-Key still lists the 75160 & 75161 chips available in stock fairly inexpensively ($2.79 each) quantity 1. The TMS9914A was a bit tougher to find, but National Instruments offers a drop-in replacement chip, the NAT9914. They are available, but all I could find was offered through their website, and a tube of 9 costs $149.00 However, unless I'm mistaken, you're in South America, are you not? I would have no idea of the availability or ability to ship these units to SA. I did find on ePay that there's a Chinese seller has the PLCC44 version of the chip for $12 each with $5 shipping. The feedback seemed OK, but... A PLCC44-DIP40 adapter shouldn't be too hard to build if you're good with hardware & a soldering iron... Hope this helps! Roger "Merch" Merchberger From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Nov 7 23:36:00 2010 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 07 Nov 2010 21:36:00 -0800 Subject: Terak 8510/c Info? In-Reply-To: <201011061323.oA6DN3Op084629@billY.EZWIND.NET> References: <4CD4ACEF.60003@mail.msu.edu> <4CD4CC23.4000503@bitsavers.org> <201011061323.oA6DN3Op084629@billY.EZWIND.NET> Message-ID: <4CD78C40.1020508@bitsavers.org> On 11/6/10 6:18 AM, John Foust wrote: > All of my Teraks are non-functional now. Someday I'll debug > which caps have gone south. At least I saved the pieces. > could you scan the docs you have on the floppy interface board? From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Sun Nov 7 23:54:56 2010 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Sun, 07 Nov 2010 21:54:56 -0800 Subject: Terak 8510/c Info? In-Reply-To: <4CD5A5CE.9060305@mail.msu.edu> References: <4CD4ACEF.60003@mail.msu.edu> <4CD4CC23.4000503@bitsavers.org> <4CD51BBE.5050703@mail.msu.edu> <4CD57E46.1050200@bitsavers.org> <4CD5A5CE.9060305@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <4CD790B0.3090003@mail.msu.edu> On 11/6/2010 12:00 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > On 11/6/2010 9:11 AM, Al Kossow wrote: >> >> It's probably a bit of a hassle, but could you get a picture of the >> guts of the keyboard/montor back panel assembly? The keyboard looks >> like a Keytronics with a serial interface, similar to the ones we >> used on the later AED terminals. >> >> I'm guessing they added a deserializer to the back panel assembly. >> >> Took a few pictures of the back panel for the keyboard/monitor. http://yahozna.dyndns.org/scratch/terak/panel/ Those should cover the entire assembly, let me know if you need anything else. Josh From rodsmallwood at btconnect.com Mon Nov 8 00:20:15 2010 From: rodsmallwood at btconnect.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2010 06:20:15 -0000 Subject: S-100 board PCB planning In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2C73185CCA65453797D99F6916EA7757@RodsDevSystem> ********************** Attention Bob Rosenbloom *********************** Please contact me at rodsmallwood at btconnect.com my email re NS boards keeps bouncing back. Hi Andrew. I am restoring a Northstar Horizion. Would any of your boards be suitable substitutes for the original NS ones? Regards ? Rod Smallwood -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Andrew Lynch Sent: 06 November 2010 15:34 To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: S-100 board PCB planning Hi! Over the last couple of years several of us at N8VEM, S100computers.com, and others have been building S-100 boards. This summer we did a major update/respin cycle to the boards and made manufactured PCBs for many builders. For a while it seemed to satisfy the demand for DIY hobbyist S-100 PCBs but now the interest is starting to pick up again so I thought I would send an update to any S-100 enthusiasts on CCTALK. I will reorder/respin S-100 PCBs once the interest level gets to an economically viable level for a group purchase. Normally that is around 25-30 PCBs I know builders want which makes a cost at $20 plus shipping per PCB affordable for most builders. This compromise balance seems to work well and we've produced several S-100 boards this way. Here are the boards we've made so far: S-100 regular prototyping board (some remaining) S-100 buffered prototyping board (some remaining) S-100 backplane (8 slot plus utility circuitry - one left) S-100 IDE (hard drive, CD-ROM, CF, ATAPI, etc) S-100 parallel ASCII keyboard (just received a new batch of respin PCBs) S-100 4MB SRAM (Flash, etc) S-100 system monitor (similar to Jade Bus Probe but two PCB set - one or two remain) S-100 bus extender (with logic probe, indicator LEDs, etc) S-100 EPROM (SRAM, EEPROM, Flash, etc) S-100 IO (dual serial, USB, voice synthesis, etc) S-100 PIC/RTC All of these have gone through at least one or two internal prototype iterations plus one or more manufactured PCB orders. Since we respin the boards based on builder feedback obviously the later generations of boards tend to be "cleaner" than the earlier ones. This is an all volunteer amateur project so the builders *are* the developers, QA, testers, etc in addition to using the boards. There are four boards in active development and/or approaching manufactured PCB stage S-100 Z80 CPU (just ordered first batch of manufactured PCBs after two rounds of prototype build and test) S-100 Console IO (dual Propeller VGA, PS/2 keyboard, microSD, Ethernet, etc - first iteration prototype boards ordered) S-100 ZFDC intelligent floppy drive controller (Z80/WD2793 second iteration prototype board imminent) S-100 68K CPU (first iteration prototype boards ordered) Please note the above boards no longer *planned* they are actual boards in some form or another. There are several more in the planning stages but I won't waste your time with those since those plans change often. All of the schematics, PCB layouts, bill of materials, etc are available on either the N8VEM wiki or S100Computers.com website including build instructions for the most part. These are noncommercial Do It Yourself (DIY) hobbyist PCBs. They are not perfect nor is this a business. John's apt description from comp.os.cpm captures it well "Andrew Lynch (at N8VEM) see (http://n8vem-sbc.pbworks.com/) and I, are in the process of having a few commercial quality S-100 cards made for ourselves. If others are interested in obtaining a bare card, let Andrew or I know. Please note these would be bare cards, a schematic and that's it. Building the board and implementing CPM etc., you are on your own. This is not a project for first timers." In other words, if you want to play along that's great but this is purely "CAVEAT EMPTOR" and there are no assurances, guarantees, or warrantees on any aspect of the boards. Please this is offered as an information post to interested vintage/classic computer hobbyists not an invitation for flames and pointless criticisms. Please be courteous and keep those to yourself. As always, questions, comments and *constructive* criticism welcome. Thanks and have a nice day! Andrew Lynch From rdawson16 at hotmail.com Mon Nov 8 03:54:53 2010 From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson) Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2010 03:54:53 -0600 Subject: FFS Sun monitor Message-ID: Its large and heavy 19" ... Works fine with vga at hi res,and has attached cables for the sun. Its going to the recycle unless you guys want it. Randy From pontus at Update.UU.SE Mon Nov 8 04:05:52 2010 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2010 11:05:52 +0100 Subject: AlphaServer 2100 Message-ID: <20101108100552.GA9773@Update.UU.SE> Hi I'm guessing the chance is pretty slim, but if anyone in Lule? or close by wants an AlphaServer 2100 pedistal there are three available for free. They are on the way to the scrapper. I would love to pick these up but they are to far away. If anyone near Uppsala would like to share the shipping costs that would be a possibility. Regards, Pontus. From pontus at Update.UU.SE Mon Nov 8 05:52:26 2010 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2010 12:52:26 +0100 Subject: AlphaServer 2100 In-Reply-To: <01NU0FC0AD0I003P3C@cats.dublinpetstores.com> References: <01NU0FC0AD0I003P3C@cats.dublinpetstores.com> Message-ID: <20101108115226.GA20888@Update.UU.SE> On Mon, Nov 08, 2010 at 11:38:56AM +0000, Peter Coghlan wrote: > If it is not possible to save them all intact, I would be interested in some > CPU and I/O boards and possibly the backplane and memory boards if someone near > the machines is willing to extract boards and ship them to me in Ireland. I > would of course pay for shipping plus a small bonus to you and to the person > shipping them, whatever you think is appropriate. I can ask, it seems to be a nice enough guy. > As a matter of interest, do you have a ballpark price for shipping the > machines intact? A lowball estimate for _one_ machine to me in Uppsala from Lule? is 1300 SEK, but I suspect it will be closer to 2000 SEK. I'll leave conversion as an exercise for the reader. Regards, Pontus From roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk Mon Nov 8 06:13:42 2010 From: roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk (Roger Holmes) Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2010 12:13:42 +0000 Subject: Virtual memory In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > From: Dave McGuire > >>> I'm not familiar with the B5000 implementation (did I miss it in the >>> thread already?), but I did try to avoid restricting the def to that >>> of paging. >> >> The B5000, circa 1961 was an amazing bit of equipment. Read about it >> here, then compare with later systems. >> >> http://www.ajwm.net/amayer/papers/B5000.html The above says the first delivery was in 1963. I believe that is the date which matters. Ideas and plans for computers are around for a long time before they come to fruition and can maybe be traced back for many years but the one date you can rely on is when a customer accepted a machine as working to its specification and paid for it. According to: http://www.chilton-computing.org.uk/acl/literature/news/1962.htm the Ferranti Atlas was working at Manchester University in 1962. I understand it had virtual memory. I wouldn't have wanted to pay for the quarter megawatt electricity bill ! From roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk Mon Nov 8 06:53:43 2010 From: roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk (Roger Holmes) Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2010 12:53:43 +0000 Subject: Crucifixion (was Re: Fragility in the floppy world (was Re: TRS-80 Model II Manuals)) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8F8EA353-C4CF-47AB-8552-D02EFD286DAD@microspot.co.uk> On 7 Nov 2010, at 18:00, cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > > Message: 7 > Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2010 21:15:55 +0000 (GMT) > From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) > Subject: Re: Fragility in the floppy world (was Re: TRS-80 Model II > Manuals) > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain > >>>> Oh, go ahead... But I beleive that cucifixion has never been used as a >>>>> suicide method. >>>> No. I've tried it dozens of times; there's just no way you can hammer in >>>> the last nail. >> On Fri, 5 Nov 2010, Tony Duell wrote: >>> I have this image of 4 of those butane-powered nailers used by builders >>> suitably arranged nad with a remote triggger facility. You get your arms >>> and legs in the right places, somehow press the switch and bang... >> >> You might be able to get away with one of the Sears "Nextec" cordless >> electric hammers. > > Except that I am in the wrong country for this. > >> >>> No I am NOT thinking of trying this. >> So, the technique remains untested. > > Do you _really_ want me to try it? Definitely not, for one thing you would not be able to report back the result of the test if successful, only if it failed. A bit like testing the I/O instruction that a torpedo's processor issues to explode its charge, and the code it executes afterwards. The Q.A. department of course would insist that the absence of a detonator and charge might affect the result of the test so must be connected up. We do get into some weird discussions don't we, like guns. What's next? Using classic computers for "sex and drugs and rock and roll"? World domination? Extermination of parasites? Building of DNA molecules to breed a super intelligent organism which will then decide to eliminate what it regards as parasites, the human race? If you must go off at tangents, please at least change the subject line! Roger Holmes From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Mon Nov 8 07:26:16 2010 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 08 Nov 2010 07:26:16 -0600 Subject: FFS Sun monitor In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CD7FA78.6020007@gmail.com> Randy Dawson wrote: > Its large and heavy 19" ... > > Works fine with vga at hi res,and has attached cables for the sun. > > Its going to the recycle unless you guys want it. coordinates? From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Mon Nov 8 08:50:24 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2010 12:50:24 -0200 Subject: S-100 board PCB planning References: <2C73185CCA65453797D99F6916EA7757@RodsDevSystem> Message-ID: <017d01cb7f55$771a2160$6700a8c0@portajara> >in obtaining a bare card, let Andrew or I know. Please note these would be >bare cards, a schematic and that's it. Building the board and implementing >CPM etc., you are on your own. This is not a project for first timers." Andrew, I'm **VERY** interesting in knowing more about S-100 boards. How much would it cost? From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Nov 8 09:22:47 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 08 Nov 2010 10:22:47 -0500 Subject: Weird discussions, was Crucifixion (was Re: Fragility in the floppy world (was Re: TRS-80 Model II Manuals)) In-Reply-To: <8F8EA353-C4CF-47AB-8552-D02EFD286DAD@microspot.co.uk> References: <8F8EA353-C4CF-47AB-8552-D02EFD286DAD@microspot.co.uk> Message-ID: <4CD815C7.8000905@neurotica.com> On 11/8/10 7:53 AM, Roger Holmes wrote: > We do get into some weird discussions don't we, like guns. What's > next? Using classic computers for "sex and drugs and rock and roll"? > World domination? Extermination of parasites? Building of DNA > molecules to breed a super intelligent organism which will then > decide to eliminate what it regards as parasites, the human race? I once dated a girl who was a DEC geek (she grew up around PDPs), and she wanted to have, erm, "physical relations" atop my VAX 8700. > If you must go off at tangents, please at least change the subject > line! I did. =) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From blstuart at bellsouth.net Mon Nov 8 09:40:23 2010 From: blstuart at bellsouth.net (Brian L. Stuart) Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2010 07:40:23 -0800 (PST) Subject: Weird discussions, was Crucifixion (was Re: Fragility in the floppy world (was Re: TRS-80 Model II Manuals)) In-Reply-To: <4CD815C7.8000905@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <449656.71710.qm@web83904.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> > ? I once dated a girl who was a DEC geek (she grew up > around PDPs), and she wanted to have, erm, "physical > relations" atop my VAX 8700. Now we know the "real" reason the Cray-1 was C-shaped. A whole new classification of computers! - if you can have physical relations inside it, it's a mainframe - if you can have physical relations on top of it, it's a mini-computer - if you can get involved with someone who would like to test those characteristics you're amazingly lucky BLS From steve at cosam.org Mon Nov 8 09:51:20 2010 From: steve at cosam.org (Steve Maddison) Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2010 16:51:20 +0100 Subject: PDP-11/34A bring up In-Reply-To: <20101104184634.GP15701@n0jcf.net> References: <20101101152950.GF2158@n0jcf.net> <20101104184634.GP15701@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: On Thu, Nov 4, 2010 at 7:46 PM, Chris Elmquist wrote: > My next mission will be to get the pair of RL02 running... ?but I need > some parts for that. > > Does anyone have, > > ? ? ? ?front panel indicator covers: > > ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?qty 2 ? ?FAULT > ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?1 ? ?LOAD > ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?1 ? ?READY #1 > ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?1 ? ?WRITE PROT > ? ? ? ?round cable for drive to drive connection I can probably help you out with some of these parts if you don't have any luck finding them more locally (I'm in the Netherlands). I definitely have a drive-to-drive cable lying around. > ? ? ? ?transition from flat cable leaving RL11 to round cable going to > ? ? ? ?drives > > I have one round cable to connect one drive... ?but without the transition, > I'm kinda stuck unless I go inside the drives and convert everything to > flat cable and connectors. >From your description it sounds like you're familiar with the bulkhead with a short cable ending in a Berg connector. I've also seen round cables with a Berg at one end and the connector for the first drive at the other. At a push you could build the latter using an existing cable, providing your own Berg connector. The originals have a big meaty grounding strap at the Berg end, but I'm not sure how essential that may be. -- Steve Maddison http://www.cosam.org/ From jonas at otter.se Mon Nov 8 06:06:50 2010 From: jonas at otter.se (Jonas Otter) Date: Mon, 08 Nov 2010 12:06:50 +0000 Subject: Backups in the modern world Message-ID: Tony Duell wrote: > The classic case of that is a demountable hard disk with headcrash > problem. It will damage any disk inserted into it, and those damaged disks > will then casue headcrashes on any other drive they're tried im. > Some indiots end up damaging every head and disk in the building.. That actually happened to a friend of mine years ago. He is/was far from an idiot, just unlucky. The first headcrash was silent, so he did not realize there had been one, put the pack in another drive, went on to copy another pack and moved that one to a third drive. By that time, the first pack had started to destroy the second drive, as witnessed by nasty sounds coming from it. But by then it was too late, the other drives started making nasty noises as well, and 60 heads and three packs had been destroyed. DECs entire stock of replacement heads was exhausted at once and they had to wait for a week while more heads were shipped in and the techs worked repairing the drives. A whole department of programmers was idle for a week. And as I said, the damage wasn't noticeable until after a little while when it was too late. /Jonas From two_bit_mem at yahoo.ca Mon Nov 8 07:57:26 2010 From: two_bit_mem at yahoo.ca (Marty) Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2010 05:57:26 -0800 (PST) Subject: Gandalf Message-ID: <526350.26345.qm@web43508.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Hello I am looking for info on a Gandalf LDS120 modem, specifically the serial port pinout. TIA Marty From scanning.cc at gmail.com Mon Nov 8 10:03:50 2010 From: scanning.cc at gmail.com (alan canning) Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2010 08:03:50 -0800 Subject: Any ideas what chip goes in this socket? In-Reply-To: <380-22010110710959509@M2W110.mail2web.com> References: <380-22010110710959509@M2W110.mail2web.com> Message-ID: Tony, An ATMEL AT28C64 EEPROM has a READY / BUSY* on Pin1 which would normally go to an Interrupt. Best regards, Steven On Sun, Nov 7, 2010 at 2:09 AM, ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk < ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk> wrote: > The device [1] that's currently all over my bench has an empty 28 pin DIL > socket on one of the PCBs. It's alongside a 27C256 EPROM and 43256 RAM, and > has a similar pinout. > > In fact the pinout is the standard JEDEC one for 28 pin memory devices > (with > A13 on pin 26, WE on pin 27, OE on pin 22, etc) with one exception. Pin 1 > is > not A14, it appears to be an output, linked to an interrupt pin on the > 80C85 > that links to the aforementioned memory devices and this socket). Oh, and > to > an input port pin. > > Any ideas? My first thoughts were an E2PROM or simular, with a ready output > on > pin 1, or a RTC/memory device with an interrupt output on pin 1, but I > can't > find any obviuos candidates. > > [1] A telephone network simulator. OK, it's not a classic computer, but I > will > be using it to test and demonstrate classic computer modems, it's well over > 10 > years old, and contains 6 microprocessors... > > -tony > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > myhosting.com - Premium Microsoft? Windows? and Linux web and application > hosting - http://link.myhosting.com/myhosting > > > From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Nov 8 10:28:03 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2010 08:28:03 -0800 (PST) Subject: Weird discussions, was Crucifixion (was Re: Fragility in the floppy world (was Re: TRS-80 Model II Manuals)) In-Reply-To: <449656.71710.qm@web83904.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> from "Brian L. Stuart" at "Nov 8, 10 07:40:23 am" Message-ID: <201011081628.oA8GS3Z3017294@floodgap.com> > > I once dated a girl who was a DEC geek (she grew up > > around PDPs), and she wanted to have, erm, "physical > > relations" atop my VAX 8700. > > Now we know the "real" reason the Cray-1 was C-shaped. > > A whole new classification of computers! > > - if you can have physical relations inside it, it's > a mainframe > - if you can have physical relations on top of it, > it's a mini-computer > > - if you can get involved with someone who would > like to test those characteristics you're amazingly > lucky Dr Pepper -> keyboard -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Talk sense to a fool and he calls you foolish. -- Euripedes ---------------- From tshoppa at wmata.com Mon Nov 8 12:17:22 2010 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim) Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2010 13:17:22 -0500 Subject: Gandalf In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > I am looking for info on a Gandalf LDS120 modem, specifically the serial port pinout. I recall it's just 2, 3, and 7, i.e. no hardware flow control, and probably not even DTR/DSR. Now whether 2 and 3 have to be swapped...well I always just tried it both ways until it worked :-) And it's 4-wire leased line on the analog side, right? So no ring detect etc. either. Tim. From rdawson16 at hotmail.com Mon Nov 8 12:28:56 2010 From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson) Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2010 12:28:56 -0600 Subject: FFS Sun monitor In-Reply-To: <4CD7FA78.6020007@gmail.com> References: , <4CD7FA78.6020007@gmail.com> Message-ID: ?45.52306?N 122.98833?W > Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2010 07:26:16 -0600 > From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com > To: > Subject: Re: FFS Sun monitor > > Randy Dawson wrote: > > Its large and heavy 19" ... > > > > Works fine with vga at hi res,and has attached cables for the sun. > > > > Its going to the recycle unless you guys want it. > > coordinates? > From keithvz at verizon.net Mon Nov 8 12:39:10 2010 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith Monahan) Date: Mon, 08 Nov 2010 13:39:10 -0500 Subject: FFS Sun monitor In-Reply-To: References: , <4CD7FA78.6020007@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4CD843CE.60804@verizon.net> On 11/8/2010 1:28 PM, Randy Dawson wrote: > > ?45.52306?N 122.98833?W > near Beaverton, OR 97007. From dm561 at torfree.net Mon Nov 8 12:38:48 2010 From: dm561 at torfree.net (MikeS) Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2010 13:38:48 -0500 Subject: Weird discussions, was Crucifixion (was Re: Fragility in the floppy world (was Re: TRS-80 Model II Manuals)) References: Message-ID: Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2010 08:28:03 -0800 (PST) From: Cameron Kaiser Subject: Re: Weird discussions, was Crucifixion (was Re: Fragility in the floppy world (was Re: TRS-80 Model II Manuals)) > > I once dated a girl who was a DEC geek (she grew up > > around PDPs), and she wanted to have, erm, "physical > > relations" atop my VAX 8700. > > Now we know the "real" reason the Cray-1 was C-shaped. > > A whole new classification of computers! > > - if you can have physical relations inside it, it's > a mainframe > - if you can have physical relations on top of it, > it's a mini-computer > > - if you can get involved with someone who would > like to test those characteristics you're amazingly > lucky Dr Pepper -> keyboard +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Not to brag, but in my experience the Cray-1 would be much harder to find (and maybe more desirable in the long run...) From rdawson16 at hotmail.com Mon Nov 8 12:41:29 2010 From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson) Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2010 12:41:29 -0600 Subject: FFS Sun monitor In-Reply-To: References: , , <4CD7FA78.6020007@gmail.com>, Message-ID: Its a N218, with the 13Y3 or whatever style cable, and a standard VGA port. it scans up to 85 hz and I was running it at 1600x or so. digital menus for all the adjusts. Its really nice, and I thought some one with a real sun would appreciate it Hillsboro, Oregon for those coordinate challenged.... > From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > Subject: RE: FFS Sun monitor > Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2010 12:28:56 -0600 > > > ?45.52306?N 122.98833?W > > > Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2010 07:26:16 -0600 > > From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com > > To: > > Subject: Re: FFS Sun monitor > > > > Randy Dawson wrote: > > > Its large and heavy 19" ... > > > > > > Works fine with vga at hi res,and has attached cables for the sun. > > > > > > Its going to the recycle unless you guys want it. > > > > coordinates? > > > From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Mon Nov 8 12:46:13 2010 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 08 Nov 2010 12:46:13 -0600 Subject: FFS Sun monitor In-Reply-To: References: , <4CD7FA78.6020007@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4CD84575.2090108@gmail.com> Randy Dawson wrote: > ?45.52306?N 122.98833?W :-) That's about 1600mi from me, unfortunately - much as I'd love a big ol' Sun screen again (well, assuming it is an old one :-) cheers Jules From blstuart at bellsouth.net Mon Nov 8 12:53:15 2010 From: blstuart at bellsouth.net (Brian L. Stuart) Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2010 10:53:15 -0800 (PST) Subject: FFS Sun monitor In-Reply-To: <4CD84575.2090108@gmail.com> Message-ID: <338448.35824.qm@web83914.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> > Randy Dawson wrote: > > ?45.52306?N 122.98833?W > > :-) > > That's about 1600mi from me, unfortunately - much as I'd > love a big ol' Sun screen again (well, assuming it is an old > one :-) For those in the eastern part of the US, I've got some older Sun monitors I'd be willing to part with, (and my wife is eager to part with). I have several of the 16" Trinitrons and a couple of the 19" monitors all with 13W3 inputs. They're in Athens, GA, a little over and hour east of Atlanta. BLS From spc at conman.org Mon Nov 8 12:56:30 2010 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2010 13:56:30 -0500 Subject: Crucifixion (was Re: Fragility in the floppy world (was Re: TRS-80 Model II Manuals)) In-Reply-To: <8F8EA353-C4CF-47AB-8552-D02EFD286DAD@microspot.co.uk> References: <8F8EA353-C4CF-47AB-8552-D02EFD286DAD@microspot.co.uk> Message-ID: <20101108185630.GA20266@brevard.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Roger Holmes once stated: > > On 7 Nov 2010, at 18:00, cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > > >>>> Oh, go ahead... But I beleive that cucifixion has never been used as a > >>>>> suicide method. > >>>> No. I've tried it dozens of times; there's just no way you can hammer in > >>>> the last nail. > >> On Fri, 5 Nov 2010, Tony Duell wrote: > >>> I have this image of 4 of those butane-powered nailers used by builders > >>> suitably arranged nad with a remote triggger facility. You get your arms > >>> and legs in the right places, somehow press the switch and bang... > >> > >> You might be able to get away with one of the Sears "Nextec" cordless > >> electric hammers. > > > > Except that I am in the wrong country for this. > > > >>> No I am NOT thinking of trying this. > >> So, the technique remains untested. > > > > Do you _really_ want me to try it? > > Definitely not, for one thing you would not be able to report back the > result of the test if successful, only if it failed. > > A bit like testing the I/O instruction that a torpedo's processor issues > to explode its charge, and the code it executes afterwards. The Q.A. > department of course would insist that the absence of a detonator and > charge might affect the result of the test so must be connected up. Back in college, I was working on a personal project [1] and I got stuck when a problem in handing error conditions [2]. So I popped into one of my professor's office, described the error condition I was trying to handle, and he said, with all seriousness [3], "If you don't know how to handle the error, don't check for the condition." In retrospect, I think he was on to something ... -spc (Then there's one of my favorite quotes: The death of God left the angels in a strange position.) [1] A BBS door game. Never did get it finished. I've forgotten which BBS software it was for, but I do know it ran under MS-DOS. [2] Since it was a BBS door, writing the error message to the screen was no good as it would probably never be seen. Writing to the disk was find, but what if the disk filled up? Okay, as a last resort, dump the message to the printer. But if the printer was off line ... [3] He was a former IBMer, so of course he meant business. From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Mon Nov 8 13:06:28 2010 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 08 Nov 2010 13:06:28 -0600 Subject: FFS Sun monitor In-Reply-To: References: , , <4CD7FA78.6020007@gmail.com>, Message-ID: <4CD84A34.2030108@gmail.com> Randy Dawson wrote: > Its a N218, with the 13Y3 or whatever style cable, and a standard VGA port. > it scans up to 85 hz and I was running it at 1600x or so. digital menus for > all the adjusts. Its really nice, and I thought some one with a real sun > would appreciate it Yes, I'm sure someone will go for it! It's a lot newer than the one I had, which had BNC inputs and a goldfish-bowl type CRT. Very nice as an old arcade game display, though, hence my hankering after another one :-) cheers Jules From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Nov 8 14:12:56 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2010 20:12:56 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Amstrad 3in disc drive troubleshooting In-Reply-To: <4CD719F4.2060001@philpem.me.uk> from "Philip Pemberton" at Nov 7, 10 09:28:20 pm Message-ID: > > On 07/11/10 20:04, Tony Duell wrote: > > I suspect, and suspected at the time, that you areperfectly correct :-) > > Well as I said, I'm bidding on another set of drives from a 9512. > Hopefully this seller is a bit more honest. I noticed another ex-PCW drive on Ebay where the seller said he'd tested in in a Tatung Einstein. Now, it's probably OK, but my Einstein uses the Hitachi-style drives with a 34 pin edge connector and a 4 pin power connecotr like the ones used on most 5.25" drives (and with the normal pinouts). If he's used a standard PC power adapter (the one you use for 3.5" drives) then ... > > I'll be fishing the drivebelts out of the two drives once I can prove > they're shot, but I'll probably keep them for mechanical spares (read: > spindle motor). Etepper motor, maybe the head carriage, stepper driver IC, etc? > > > Before we get another flamewar, I will point out that just about every > > seller I've dealt with at radio rallies has been extremely honest. If > > something doesn't work, they say so. If it's missing important parts, > > they say that too. > > I can say the same -- I've yet to meet a dishonest seller at a radio > rally. A few traders have an over-inflated idea of the value of their > stock, but you see that *everywhere*... I don;t regard that as dishonest (in the same way I don't consider the local corner shop to be dishonest becasue it sells, say, milk for twice the price it sells in the supermarket up the right). And I don't consider it dishonest if somebody offers to sell a C64 for $1000. Provided you get what the seller claims (and thus what you expect), I regard it as honest. It's up to the buyer to determine what he is prepared to pay for an item. If you don't like the price, you can go elsewhere. > > > I've met plenty of sellers who are happy to let you remove covers and > > have a look inside. > > Seen that, too. > > "Interested in that, sir? It won't power up, but it's full of mixers, > filters and other bits. Bound to be something good in there -- just let > me get my screwdriver and I'll show you!" Quite often I've seen units on the stalls are rallies iwth the covers removed. If you decide to buy, the seller puts the covers on for you. I also remember the time I bought an old calcualtor at a radio rally (A Sumlock Compucorp 324 :-)) and as I was walking away from the stall, the seller came after me and gave me the user manual for it. Yes, there are plenty of honest sellers at rallies. > > > And I rememebr a chap with a box of assorted valves > > who provided a multimeter so you could at least check if the heater was > > OK. > > One of these days I'm going to have to buy a couple of triodes to play They are not hard to find. > around with... "valve amplifier" is on the long-term projects list, as Any particualr design/specification? > is "fix that X-Y display you got half way through building". I was going > to build a few front-ends for that -- NBTV, CVBS, variable amplitude X-Y > and maybe an FPGA version of Asteroids and Battlezone. You should try building a clone of the HP1350 'Grpahics translator'. It takes in a subset of HPGL (over an HPIN interface, I think RS232 was an option) and outputs XYZ signals to drive a non-strage display. The original was a lot of random logic (amazingly no processor or processor-like circuitry). I suppose ti could go in an FPGA, much as I abhor such things... > > Odd that the schematics in the PCW8256 manaul show an optical write > > protect sensor (look at the circuitry connected to pin 42 of the ASIC). > > Huh. This one has a mechanical switch. Maybe the SS drive with the mech I think A lot of them had the mechancial switch. I suspect the scheamtic in the manaul is just for one of the drives they used... > switch is out of a Spectrum +3 or CPC, and the DS drive is out of a > later PCW? > > The DS drive shines a light at the disc if memory serves. Black for > "protected" (i.e. tab pushed in), reflected white for "unprotected". I have a flippy 3" drive (single head) which optically detects the notch in the front edge of the disk hosing and changes the colour of the in-use LED (red for one side, green for the other). Alas AFAIK that signal is not avaialble on the itnerface connector. > > > Ah, my multimeter lives on the workbench. > > I haven't got a workbench, but I've appropriated the kitchen table for > DiscFerret manufacturing :) > > Though it's currently taking me a day to make and debug each DF. I I'd jsut supply iy as a kit. People who want one can darn well learn to solder :-) > > At the moment, it's a horrible > > analogue thi9ng becuase I still can't find a digitial meter that I like > > the look of. If I wanted a bench instrument, it would be easy (although > > paying for it wouldn't be..), but a nice handheld one doesn't seem to exist. > > Seems you can get a cheap junky DMM or an expensive, all singing all > dancing DMM. There doesn't seem to be much in the middle these days. Hmm... I can't find one I like at all. Elenco (http://www.elneco.com/) sell a DMM kit, and the instructions are available on their ebsite. It looks very simular to the cheap-ish DMMs sold (assembled) my Maplin and others, and I susepct it has the asme origins. Upon reading the instructions, I found that while the main chip (ADC and display driver) is the well-known 7106, it is directely bonded out to the PCB and epoxy-capped :-( (it is, of course, pre-fitted in the kit version). Since this makes it somewhat hard to repair, I am not interested in such meters. If you look at the high-end handheld meters costing around \pounds 300, _not one_ has a service manual available, or any component-level spares. And If I am paying that sort of money, I do expect to be able to get parts to fix it. Strangely, if I wanted a bench instrument then at least Agilent do supply service manuals and component-level spares. But I want a battery-powered instrument I can carry about. And I regard a continuity beeper (lacking on bench instruments) to be essentiial. So I have not found one I like... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Nov 8 14:23:50 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2010 20:23:50 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Amstrad 3in disc drive troubleshooting In-Reply-To: <4CD725D4.8020403@gmail.com> from "Jules Richardson" at Nov 7, 10 04:19:00 pm Message-ID: > I suppose it's not impossible to encounter that situation at a radio rally, > car boot sale etc. although I must admit that it's tempting (as a buyer) to > merge the sold-as-seen and I'm-going-to-get-screwed categories :-) Well, if th sell has 2 piles of similar devices (in the case I mentioned, IDE hard drives), it's very hard to avoid assuming that 'untested' realy means 'not working'... I haev no problem with 'sold as seen' or 'not working' or whatever. And I do rememebr that in most cases I am buying something that's 30 years old or more, so I don't expect it to look and work like it's just left the factory. Howeever, it should not have parts missing (particularly not complete PCBs or subassemblies) unless I am told about it before I buy it. For example, some years ago I bought a non-working HP9820 calcualtor on E-bay., Indeed it wasn't working, but it was complete (the fault turned out to be a 7495 chip on the memroy address PCB). I was therefore happy with my purchase. Had there been PCBs missing, while the description would still I suppose have been correct, I would have been unhappy. > > > > Ah, my multimeter lives on the workbench. > > Mine's always bouncing between house, workshop and garage - I'm rapidly coming > to the conclusion that I need three of everything :-( I learnt years ago that having a reasoanble hand tool kit upstairs (screwdrivers, torx drivers, pliers, etc) saved a lot of going up and down stairs to fetch tools for minor repairs, or to check I'd pulled the right machine out of the spare bedroom :-) > > >> I'm seeing around 2V on all three pins of the head -- 'top', 'bottom' > >> and the centre tap. If I switch to AC coupling, 200mV/div, I see what > >> looks like a very noisy sine wave on the centre tap, and then the coils > > > > This is for the selected head? That can't be right!~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > The behavior should presumably be pretty much the same for a 3.5" or 5.25" > drive (depending on media coercivity - I don't recall what 3" is now); maybe > it's worthwhile Phil sanity-checking observed readings against a drive that he > does have around, if he doesn't have a known-good 3" drive handy? Good idea. Even if the coercivity is differnet, the signals will look much the same, just different amplitudes. The one exception to that might be the Sony single-sided full-height 3.5" drive, which has a step-up transfoemr between the head and the read amplifier, apparently the head signal amplitude was too low otherwsie. But you'd recognise that it you saw it. I wonder if you you use parts from the Amstrad 3" drive, and bits from other drives to make soemthign that works. As I said, the read circuit in the ASIC of the Amstrad drive looks awfully like an MC3740 from the external components... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Nov 8 14:28:20 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2010 20:28:20 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Amstrad 3in disc drive troubleshooting In-Reply-To: <4CD6C69D.13923.18C7161@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Nov 7, 10 03:32:45 pm Message-ID: > When I get a chance, I'll get a screwdriver out and check it, but my > memory is that I used the standard (European) schematic to locate and > replace one of those silly little circuit protectors in the power > supply--with a picofuse of the same rating. What's silly about them (if picofuses are sensible)? > > That Amstrad gate array is the principal thing I really don't like > about the machine. Undocumented and probably irreplaceable. You and me both :-). To be fair, Amstrad did sell service manuals for the machine at a sensible price. (THe one I have has 'Price \pounds 8.00' printed on the cover), and spare parts [1] were available while the machine was in production. So about 20 years ago you could have got a replacement gate array chip with no problems. Which is more than you can say for a lot of manufacturers. [1] I had no problem getting a replacement flyback transformer for an Amstrad PC monitor, for example. > Otherwise, a decent graphics display, lots of RAM, what's not to > like? I still think the nicest CP/M machine I've seen is the Epson QX10. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Nov 8 14:37:12 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2010 20:37:12 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Crucifixion (was Re: Fragility in the floppy world (was Re: TRS-80 In-Reply-To: <8F8EA353-C4CF-47AB-8552-D02EFD286DAD@microspot.co.uk> from "Roger Holmes" at Nov 8, 10 12:53:43 pm Message-ID: > > Do you _really_ want me to try it? > > > Definitely not, for one thing you would not be able to report back the = > result of the test if successful, only if it failed. I believe that crucifixion is a slow (and painful) death. In which case I could presumably find a way to send a message after I was nailed up (perhaps using one of those input devices for disable people that only requires a single-bit input, say an pressure sensor operated by sucking a tube. Steve Ciarcia described one in an Circuit Cellar article in Byte years ago). At least then you'd know the nailing was successful. I am still not intending to try it... > > A bit like testing the I/O instruction that a torpedo's processor issues = > to explode its charge, and the code it executes afterwards. The Q.A. = The only sane things to put there are surely a CPU halt or BR .-2 or similar. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Nov 8 14:40:01 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2010 20:40:01 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Gandalf In-Reply-To: <526350.26345.qm@web43508.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> from "Marty" at Nov 8, 10 05:57:26 am Message-ID: > > Hello > > I am looking for info on a Gandalf LDS120 modem, specifically the serial port pinout. I know it... I have a few, and may even have a schematic somewhere. First thing is that it's not a PSTN modem. It's an interface for a fairly long (severla km I think) private line. You use them in pairs, link the the Tx screw terminals of one to the Rx screw terminals of the other. The DB25 pinout is what you'd expect. RS232, wired as a DCE. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Nov 8 14:43:01 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2010 20:43:01 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Any ideas what chip goes in this socket? In-Reply-To: from "alan canning" at Nov 8, 10 08:03:50 am Message-ID: > > Tony, > > An ATMEL AT28C64 EEPROM has a READY / BUSY* on Pin1 which would normally go > to an Interrupt. Thank you. I will track down a data sheet. -tony From IanK at vulcan.com Mon Nov 8 14:47:39 2010 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2010 12:47:39 -0800 Subject: Crucifixion (was Re: Fragility in the floppy world (was Re: TRS-80 In-Reply-To: References: <8F8EA353-C4CF-47AB-8552-D02EFD286DAD@microspot.co.uk> from "Roger Holmes" at Nov 8, 10 12:53:43 pm Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tony Duell > Sent: Monday, November 08, 2010 12:37 PM > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Crucifixion (was Re: Fragility in the floppy world (was > Re: TRS-80 > > > > Do you _really_ want me to try it? > > > > > > Definitely not, for one thing you would not be able to report back > the = > > result of the test if successful, only if it failed. > > I believe that crucifixion is a slow (and painful) death. In which case > I > could presumably find a way to send a message after I was nailed up > (perhaps using one of those input devices for disable people that only > requires a single-bit input, say an pressure sensor operated by sucking > a > tube. Steve Ciarcia described one in an Circuit Cellar article in Byte > years ago). At least then you'd know the nailing was successful. > > I am still not intending to try it... > > > > > A bit like testing the I/O instruction that a torpedo's processor > issues = > > to explode its charge, and the code it executes afterwards. The Q.A. > = > > The only sane things to put there are surely a CPU halt or BR .-2 or > similar. > How about HCF? -- Ian From bqt at softjar.se Mon Nov 8 10:53:12 2010 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Mon, 08 Nov 2010 17:53:12 +0100 Subject: Virtual memory In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CD82AF8.8010907@softjar.se> On 11/05/10 19:13, "Chuck Guzis" wrote: > On 3 Nov 2010 at 20:47, Johnny Billquist wrote: > >> > Ok. So, a program would think it addressed a memory space, which was >> > it's own, and the addresses it used would in no way related to the >> > actual physical memory it ended up referring to. I'd call that virtual >> > memory. Although, having to map the whole virtual memory as one chunk >> > to physical memory makes it a little more work, end less flexible than >> > having pages. And it pretty much prevents you from ever being able to >> > share memory in a reasonable way between processes. > Well, not really. I refer you to the CDC 7000 SCOPE 2 operating > system. There's a users' manual on bitsavers, but I suspect the > design notebooks have long vanished from the face of the earth--so > there's no documentation on the innards. I tried to find any manuals on bitsavers, but I can't see anything about a CDC 7000 there... But while I can see that doing shared memory would be possible even with a single mapping between virtual and physical address space, it would mean you need to copy data between different locations between each context switch, which would be rather heavy. > At any rate, the CDC 7600 OS people had a peculiar problem. On the > 6000 series of machines, PPUs are free-range; they have access to all > of memory and at the time (say, 1968), comprised most of the > operating system--there was almost no CPU code involved. You'd stick > a request into your own location 1 and PP 0 would see it and detail > off the work to the rest of the PPs. Very cool--you never gave up > control of the CPU unless it was to yield to the job scheduler. Gah. I have no idea what PPU mean, nor PP. But it sounds like what you describe now would not be virtual memory. If each process have access to all of the memory, then you'd not have your own address space. Instead you'd have to make sure you kept within your bondaries. Hopefully the hardware can assist with that, but maybe not. But that is still something else. It's basically just talking about physical memory. But I might very well totally be misunderstanding things here, since (as I said) I don't know what these acronyms really mean. > But this wasn't possible on the 7600, as each PP was assigned its own > hard-wired slot in CPU memory and was unable to access anything but > that. So the 7600 PPs were detalled off to I/O only. (Now, I'd call > that memory-mapped I/O--you want to to talk to a certain I/O > processor, you communicate with it through a hardware-fixed location > in memory.) Which left the CPU to handle OS tasks such as job > scheduling and file management. A whole new can of worms, as SCM > (the memory that a program could execute from was very fast, but > somewhat limited). To me, the difference between shared memory I/O and memory mapped I/O is about how the notification comes across between the subsystems. Is the slave triggered by a write to the memory, or does the slave poll the memory location. If the slave polls the memory location, then I'd called it a shared memory design. If the slave gets triggered by a write to the memory, then I'd call it memory mapped I/O. And what you describe here could further be called I/O channels, I think, in IBM speak. Basically, separate processors running their own code, which can do limited kind of stuff, mostly related to I/O functions for the main processor. Some of these designs even allowed you to place the "program" to be run in shared memory, and then kick off the I/O processor to do the work, and it signalled back when it was done. But I digress... :-) > A small permanently-resident "kernel" to handle PP commination and > task swapping was written, but job processing, file management, etc. > was performed for each job with a sort of matryoushka doll setup of > overlapping field lengths. In other words, a user program was > completely enclosed within the record manager which was completely > enclosed within a buffer manager which was completely enclosed within > the job supervisor for that job. So all user memory was shared with > successively higher privilege level tasks, differing only at what > location their respective location 0s were assigned to physical > memory. Ah, yes. That is also shared memory between different processes, but in a somewhat limited hierarchical way. You could for all OSes say that any process is always sharing it's memory with the operating system. :-) > The 7600 also had a bulk core "LCM" which couldn't be executed from, > but served for swapping and data storage. > > As far as piecemeal swapping, I'll leave that for another time when I > discuss the CDC Zodiac operating system (1970), something for which I > suspect no documentation survives. Sounds like fun... Johnny From chrise at pobox.com Mon Nov 8 13:02:34 2010 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2010 13:02:34 -0600 Subject: PDP-11/34A bring up In-Reply-To: References: <20101101152950.GF2158@n0jcf.net> <20101104184634.GP15701@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <20101108190234.GF16652@n0jcf.net> Hi Steve... Thank you for the reply. I am still exploring some options that have surfaced since I sent out this message... and they are closer to home so I will run those to ground before branching out. Seems silly but it might be easier to scavenge the connector off the back of a dead RL01 or RL02 and make it into the transition than to find the actual transition! Did the transition (which I'm sure has a more proper DEC name) originally come with the RL01/02? The RL11 or equiv controller? or with the rack? Chris On Monday (11/08/2010 at 04:51PM +0100), Steve Maddison wrote: > On Thu, Nov 4, 2010 at 7:46 PM, Chris Elmquist wrote: > > My next mission will be to get the pair of RL02 running... ?but I need > > some parts for that. > > > > Does anyone have, > > > > ? ? ? ?front panel indicator covers: > > > > ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?qty 2 ? ?FAULT > > ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?1 ? ?LOAD > > ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?1 ? ?READY #1 > > ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?1 ? ?WRITE PROT > > ? ? ? ?round cable for drive to drive connection > > I can probably help you out with some of these parts if you don't have > any luck finding them more locally (I'm in the Netherlands). I > definitely have a drive-to-drive cable lying around. > > > ? ? ? ?transition from flat cable leaving RL11 to round cable going to > > ? ? ? ?drives > > > > I have one round cable to connect one drive... ?but without the transition, > > I'm kinda stuck unless I go inside the drives and convert everything to > > flat cable and connectors. > > >From your description it sounds like you're familiar with the bulkhead > with a short cable ending in a Berg connector. I've also seen round > cables with a Berg at one end and the connector for the first drive at > the other. At a push you could build the latter using an existing > cable, providing your own Berg connector. The originals have a big > meaty grounding strap at the Berg end, but I'm not sure how essential > that may be. > > -- > Steve Maddison > http://www.cosam.org/ -- Chris Elmquist From chrise at pobox.com Mon Nov 8 13:07:49 2010 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2010 13:07:49 -0600 Subject: Advin PILOT-142 programmer sw? Message-ID: <20101108190749.GG16652@n0jcf.net> I was recently given an Advin Systems PILOT-142 device programmer... but of course no software with it. I downloaded Advin's Captain v1.34 software for XP from their website, where they claim support for the model -142 but after installing and launching the software, it reports that it does not work with the "revision" of my programmer. There are no revision or series marks on the unit other than the PILOT-142 sticker above the power switch... so I don't know what makes it different. Email to Advin says they have NO software that supports the -142 even if their website says otherwise. In any case, I'm looking for anyone that might have DOS or Win software for this older beast. It would be a nice unit for burning 2716, 2732 and a number of old PALs that I would like to do. Chris -- Chris Elmquist From geneb at deltasoft.com Mon Nov 8 14:28:46 2010 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2010 12:28:46 -0800 (PST) Subject: ProFiles scans... In-Reply-To: References: <8F8EA353-C4CF-47AB-8552-D02EFD286DAD@microspot.co.uk> from "Roger Holmes" at Nov 8, 10 12:53:43 pm Message-ID: ...are complete from the collection I had. Another 20+ issues went up on Saturday and I updated the descriptions a bit on Sunday. http://www.retroarchive.org g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Nov 8 15:15:59 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2010 16:15:59 -0500 Subject: PDP-11/34A bring up In-Reply-To: <20101108190234.GF16652@n0jcf.net> References: <20101101152950.GF2158@n0jcf.net> <20101104184634.GP15701@n0jcf.net> <20101108190234.GF16652@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: On 11/8/10, Chris Elmquist wrote: > Seems silly but it might be easier to scavenge the connector off the back > of a dead RL01 or RL02 and make it into the transition than to find the > actual transition! It's the same part, AFAIK. What I have on one rack is a special DEC mounting bracket that can accept two of the round-cable-to-flat-cable transitions - it's a bit larger than a pack of playing cards and easily affixes to an H960. Mine has one transition connector, but there is room to mount a second one. Having worked on a few RL01/RL02 drives, ISTR it's the same part that's bolted to the back of the drives. > Did the transition (which I'm sure has a more proper DEC name) originally > come with the RL01/02? The RL11 or equiv controller? or with the rack? I _think_ it was part of the cab kit with the controller. You could probably find the right DEC part number (my guess is a 70-xxx...) with the RL11 printset. The arrangements I know of are... RL8A - round cable with a ZIF end for the drive and a 2x20 "Berg" end for the controller RLV11/RLV12 - round cable with ZIF end for the drive and a 2x20 Berg end for the controller, but a different DEC P/N than the RL8A cable (not positive and if true, don't remember why it's different). RL11 - flat cable from RL11 to rack bracket, round cable with ZIF connectors on _both_ ends to go from transition connector to first drive All drives: round cable with ZIF on each end to go from drive to drive, plus ZIF-connector terminator that is externally identical to, but not electrically identical to RK06/RK07 terminator. I know I have more drives than cables and controllers, but if someone wants to buy a zero-hour RL02, I can fix you up (located in Columbus, OH). -ethan From auringer at tds.net Mon Nov 8 15:19:57 2010 From: auringer at tds.net (auringer tds.net) Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2010 15:19:57 -0600 Subject: Help with testing Sun CP1500-440 Message-ID: Hi all, I recently acquired a SPARCengine 440, which is a CompactPCI form factor SBC. I don't currently have a cPCI chassis in which to test this thing. Normally I would just hang onto this and wait for a chassis to present itself, but I would like to know if the card works before spending resources on the chassis. Is there someone that would be able to help me out with some testing? I think I could make it worth your while. Thanks, -Jon From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Nov 8 15:38:04 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 08 Nov 2010 16:38:04 -0500 Subject: Help with testing Sun CP1500-440 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CD86DBC.5080702@neurotica.com> On 11/8/10 4:19 PM, auringer tds.net wrote: > I recently acquired a SPARCengine 440, which is a CompactPCI form > factor SBC. I don't currently have a cPCI chassis in which to test > this thing. Normally I would just hang onto this and wait for a > chassis to present itself, but I would like to know if the card works > before spending resources on the chassis. Is there someone that would > be able to help me out with some testing? I think I could make it > worth your while. I've sent info privately, but for any other interested parties, the Sun Netra T1-105 is a single-slot cPCI chassis containing one of these boards. It's a 1U rackmount uniprocessor 64-bit UltraSPARC server with two 1"-tall 80-pin fast/wide SCSI bays and (optionally) a CD-ROM or DVD-ROM drive in the front. It has two 10/100Mbps Ethernet interfaces, two Cisco-pinout RJ45 serial ports (one is the console), a single PCI slot, and a non-redundant power supply that is available in both 120VAC and 48VDC versions. They run current Solaris, as well as NetBSD/sparc64 quite well. I have run a very large number (probably ~100) of these machines and I like them a lot. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ploopster at gmail.com Mon Nov 8 15:46:51 2010 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 08 Nov 2010 16:46:51 -0500 Subject: Help with testing Sun CP1500-440 In-Reply-To: <4CD86DBC.5080702@neurotica.com> References: <4CD86DBC.5080702@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4CD86FCB.60306@gmail.com> Dave McGuire wrote: > I've sent info privately, but for any other interested parties, the Sun > Netra T1-105 is a single-slot cPCI chassis containing one of these > boards. It's a 1U rackmount uniprocessor 64-bit UltraSPARC server with > two 1"-tall 80-pin fast/wide SCSI bays and (optionally) a CD-ROM or > DVD-ROM drive in the front. It has two 10/100Mbps Ethernet interfaces, > two Cisco-pinout RJ45 serial ports (one is the console), a single PCI > slot, and a non-redundant power supply that is available in both 120VAC > and 48VDC versions. They run current Solaris, as well as NetBSD/sparc64 > quite well. I didn't know that. Does that imply that I can take the cPCI module out of a T1-105 and put it in a 2U cPCI chassis with three other cPCI boards? Peace... Sridhar From auringer at tds.net Mon Nov 8 15:52:21 2010 From: auringer at tds.net (auringer tds.net) Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2010 15:52:21 -0600 Subject: Help with testing Sun CP1500-440 In-Reply-To: <4CD86FCB.60306@gmail.com> References: <4CD86DBC.5080702@neurotica.com> <4CD86FCB.60306@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Nov 8, 2010 at 3:46 PM, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > I didn't know that. ?Does that imply that I can take the cPCI module out of > a T1-105 and put it in a 2U cPCI chassis with three other cPCI boards? You can't have more than one of the CP1500 cards in a single chassis. -Jon From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Nov 8 15:54:24 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 08 Nov 2010 16:54:24 -0500 Subject: Help with testing Sun CP1500-440 In-Reply-To: <4CD86FCB.60306@gmail.com> References: <4CD86DBC.5080702@neurotica.com> <4CD86FCB.60306@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4CD87190.9050902@neurotica.com> On 11/8/10 4:46 PM, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Dave McGuire wrote: >> I've sent info privately, but for any other interested parties, the Sun >> Netra T1-105 is a single-slot cPCI chassis containing one of these >> boards. It's a 1U rackmount uniprocessor 64-bit UltraSPARC server with >> two 1"-tall 80-pin fast/wide SCSI bays and (optionally) a CD-ROM or >> DVD-ROM drive in the front. It has two 10/100Mbps Ethernet interfaces, >> two Cisco-pinout RJ45 serial ports (one is the console), a single PCI >> slot, and a non-redundant power supply that is available in both 120VAC >> and 48VDC versions. They run current Solaris, as well as NetBSD/sparc64 >> quite well. > > I didn't know that. Does that imply that I can take the cPCI module out > of a T1-105 and put it in a 2U cPCI chassis with three other cPCI boards? Yep. The CP1500 was originally designed for telecom applications, it found its way into a few switches and related hardware. In those applications they were plugged into larger cPCI chassis which were more "telecommy". -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Nov 8 15:56:39 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 08 Nov 2010 16:56:39 -0500 Subject: Help with testing Sun CP1500-440 In-Reply-To: References: <4CD86DBC.5080702@neurotica.com> <4CD86FCB.60306@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4CD87217.6060006@neurotica.com> On 11/8/10 4:52 PM, auringer tds.net wrote: >> I didn't know that. Does that imply that I can take the cPCI module out of >> a T1-105 and put it in a 2U cPCI chassis with three other cPCI boards? > > You can't have more than one of the CP1500 cards in a single chassis. Actually I'm pretty sure it's possible to disable the bus arbiter and make them just pull power from the bus. I'm not 100% certain but I believe I've seen it done. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cclist at sydex.com Mon Nov 8 16:00:10 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 08 Nov 2010 14:00:10 -0800 Subject: Amstrad 3in disc drive troubleshooting In-Reply-To: References: <4CD6C69D.13923.18C7161@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Nov 7, 10 03:32:45 pm, Message-ID: <4CD8026A.9062.1232459@cclist.sydex.com> On 8 Nov 2010 at 20:28, Tony Duell wrote: > What's silly about them (if picofuses are sensible)? Maybe they're common on European gear, but the Joyce was the first time I'd ever seen one--they're just not what I'd consider to be a "universal" part. > I still think the nicest CP/M machine I've seen is the Epson QX10. That's a hard call--if we're talking about Z80-based CP/M machines (not x86 or 68K), some of the other late Japanese machines were pretty impressive. The QX10 was interesting to me mostly in its non- CPM (TP/M?) software. But I won't get behind any particular system--there were too many of them. --Chuck From ajp166 at verizon.net Mon Nov 8 16:08:28 2010 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Mon, 08 Nov 2010 17:08:28 -0500 Subject: S-100 board PCB planning In-Reply-To: <2C73185CCA65453797D99F6916EA7757@RodsDevSystem> References: <2C73185CCA65453797D99F6916EA7757@RodsDevSystem> Message-ID: <4CD874DC.9030201@verizon.net> On 11/08/2010 01:20 AM, Rod Smallwood wrote: > ********************** Attention Bob Rosenbloom *********************** > Please contact me at rodsmallwood at btconnect.com my email re NS boards keeps > bouncing back. > > > Hi Andrew. > I am restoring a Northstar Horizion. Would any of your boards be suitable > substitutes for the original NS ones? > > > As NS* user the answer is sorta. The board will plug in but none are NS* replacements if only the include things NS* never imagined or implemented. In short, all of those boards can be used in a NS* Horizon as the backplane in that machine is generic S100 and oddly enough 99% IEEE696 compatable (needs terminations, and only for 8bit IO) and already has two serial, parallel ports, interrupt logic plus interrupt control. However stock NS* cards are not completely 696 compatible so some care with mixing them needs to be taken. The yabut is that none are replacement cards, though most would extend the machine nicely especially the z80/floppy and the IDE. I happen to have two NS* horizons. One I built in 1978 and all the boards are non stock and it has things like 10mhz z80(modified Compupro CPU-Z), 256kB ram with banking, 8085/765 smart FDC (supports 8" and 3.5", BIOS on board), Teltek HDC (2 D540s for 62mb total), smart IDE/CF(64MB installed, smart part if the BIOS is fully implemented it it), 512K MdriveH ramdisk, 256K romdisk, CompuPro MPX1 (intelligent IO slave), Smart printer buffer(128K/8049), fast serial (8049 8251) for buffered serial support. Generally runs a very modified version of CP/M-80 with multitasking and mountable drive support added. The other is a rock stock NS* 64K Horizon with either a SD or DD controller ( I have both for it). Runs NSDOS, CP/M, UCSD Pascal. Allison > Regards > > Rod Smallwood > -----Original Message----- > From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] > On Behalf Of Andrew Lynch > Sent: 06 November 2010 15:34 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: S-100 board PCB planning > > Hi! Over the last couple of years several of us at N8VEM, > S100computers.com, and others have been building S-100 boards. This summer > we did a major update/respin cycle to the boards and made manufactured PCBs > for many builders. For a while it seemed to satisfy the demand for DIY > hobbyist S-100 PCBs but now the interest is starting to pick up again so I > thought I would send an update to any S-100 enthusiasts on CCTALK. > > I will reorder/respin S-100 PCBs once the interest level gets to an > economically viable level for a group purchase. Normally that is around > 25-30 PCBs I know builders want which makes a cost at $20 plus shipping per > PCB affordable for most builders. This compromise balance seems to work > well and we've produced several S-100 boards this way. Here are the boards > we've made so far: > > S-100 regular prototyping board (some remaining) > > S-100 buffered prototyping board (some remaining) > > S-100 backplane (8 slot plus utility circuitry - one left) > > S-100 IDE (hard drive, CD-ROM, CF, ATAPI, etc) > > S-100 parallel ASCII keyboard (just received a new batch of respin > PCBs) > > S-100 4MB SRAM (Flash, etc) > > S-100 system monitor (similar to Jade Bus Probe but two PCB set - > one or two remain) > > S-100 bus extender (with logic probe, indicator LEDs, etc) > > S-100 EPROM (SRAM, EEPROM, Flash, etc) > > S-100 IO (dual serial, USB, voice synthesis, etc) > > S-100 PIC/RTC > > All of these have gone through at least one or two internal prototype > iterations plus one or more manufactured PCB orders. Since we respin the > boards based on builder feedback obviously the later generations of boards > tend to be "cleaner" than the earlier ones. This is an all volunteer > amateur project so the builders *are* the developers, QA, testers, etc in > addition to using the boards. > > There are four boards in active development and/or approaching manufactured > PCB stage > > S-100 Z80 CPU (just ordered first batch of manufactured PCBs after > two rounds of prototype build and test) > > S-100 Console IO (dual Propeller VGA, PS/2 keyboard, microSD, > Ethernet, etc - first iteration prototype boards ordered) > > S-100 ZFDC intelligent floppy drive controller (Z80/WD2793 second > iteration prototype board imminent) > > S-100 68K CPU (first iteration prototype boards ordered) > > Please note the above boards no longer *planned* they are actual boards in > some form or another. There are several more in the planning stages but I > won't waste your time with those since those plans change often. All of the > schematics, PCB layouts, bill of materials, etc are available on either the > N8VEM wiki or S100Computers.com website including build instructions for the > most part. > > These are noncommercial Do It Yourself (DIY) hobbyist PCBs. They are not > perfect nor is this a business. John's apt description from comp.os.cpm > captures it well "Andrew Lynch (at N8VEM) see > (http://n8vem-sbc.pbworks.com/) and I, are in the process of having a few > commercial quality S-100 cards made for ourselves. If others are interested > in obtaining a bare card, let Andrew or I know. Please note these would be > bare cards, a schematic and that's it. Building the board and implementing > CPM etc., you are on your own. This is not a project for first timers." > > In other words, if you want to play along that's great but this is purely > "CAVEAT EMPTOR" and there are no assurances, guarantees, or warrantees on > any aspect of the boards. > > Please this is offered as an information post to interested vintage/classic > computer hobbyists not an invitation for flames and pointless criticisms. > Please be courteous and keep those to yourself. As always, questions, > comments and *constructive* criticism welcome. > > Thanks and have a nice day! > > Andrew Lynch > > > From auringer at tds.net Mon Nov 8 16:10:17 2010 From: auringer at tds.net (auringer tds.net) Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2010 16:10:17 -0600 Subject: Help with testing Sun CP1500-440 In-Reply-To: <4CD87217.6060006@neurotica.com> References: <4CD86DBC.5080702@neurotica.com> <4CD86FCB.60306@gmail.com> <4CD87217.6060006@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Nov 8, 2010 at 3:56 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > ?Actually I'm pretty sure it's possible to disable the bus arbiter and make > them just pull power from the bus. ?I'm not 100% certain but I believe I've > seen it done. I was going with what Sun said. I actually have four of them and thought it would cool to set them up as a quad processor system. Do you have a pointer to where someone has done this? -Jon From ploopster at gmail.com Mon Nov 8 16:10:54 2010 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 08 Nov 2010 17:10:54 -0500 Subject: Help with testing Sun CP1500-440 In-Reply-To: References: <4CD86DBC.5080702@neurotica.com> <4CD86FCB.60306@gmail.com> <4CD87217.6060006@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4CD8756E.6030108@gmail.com> auringer tds.net wrote: >> Actually I'm pretty sure it's possible to disable the bus arbiter and make >> them just pull power from the bus. I'm not 100% certain but I believe I've >> seen it done. > > I was going with what Sun said. I actually have four of them and > thought it would cool to set them up as a quad processor system. Do > you have a pointer to where someone has done this? What Dave's talking about and what you're talking about aren't the same thing. In his configuration, it ends up as four systems in one box. Peace... Sridhar From drb at msu.edu Mon Nov 8 16:15:23 2010 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Mon, 08 Nov 2010 17:15:23 -0500 Subject: Gandalf In-Reply-To: (Your message of Mon, 08 Nov 2010 13:17:22 EST.) References: Message-ID: <20101108221523.76B77A580D2@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > I am looking for info on a Gandalf LDS120 modem, specifically the > serial port pinout. In the division of irrelevant to the original question, I thought these things were line drivers, not modems. De From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Nov 8 16:26:43 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 08 Nov 2010 17:26:43 -0500 Subject: Help with testing Sun CP1500-440 In-Reply-To: References: <4CD86DBC.5080702@neurotica.com> <4CD86FCB.60306@gmail.com> <4CD87217.6060006@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4CD87923.5000006@neurotica.com> On 11/8/10 5:10 PM, auringer tds.net wrote: >> Actually I'm pretty sure it's possible to disable the bus arbiter and make >> them just pull power from the bus. I'm not 100% certain but I believe I've >> seen it done. > > I was going with what Sun said. *snicker* One thing I'm fond of saying is "The people who know the least about Sun computers are Sun employees". I was the guy who figured out that it really is possible to put a row of Sun-3/50 or 3/60 machines in an x/x80 VME chassis, and in doing so put together what I believe to have been the first of what we now call "blade servers", at an ISP in early 1993. Later I did the same thing with 4/600 boards, building the same thing but with faster "blades". (I have always the term "blade" as it is commonly applied here) The 3/50 and 3/60 only pull power from the bus, so that was easy. The 4/600 is a real VME machine, so it required more fancy footwork; you need to prevent it from trying to be a bus master. I did that by locking their VMEbus arbiters into loopback mode in OBP, which works like a charm. (once I got all the OBP ROMs updated to the version that supported loopback mode, that is) Both of these things "could not possibly work", "never", "definitely not", etc etc, according to Sun engineering. Then, on the phone, I told the guy I was leaning up against one that had been running for weeks with customers on it. That was fun. :) > I actually have four of them and > thought it would cool to set them up as a quad processor system. Do > you have a pointer to where someone has done this? I do not. I know I've seen a single chassis with several CP1500s in it on different buses in a redundant configuration (this was a controller for a Summa VCO-4K phone switch) but I think I've seen them in a master/slave scenario somewhere. I may be thinking of something else though. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Nov 8 16:27:18 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 08 Nov 2010 17:27:18 -0500 Subject: Help with testing Sun CP1500-440 In-Reply-To: <4CD8756E.6030108@gmail.com> References: <4CD86DBC.5080702@neurotica.com> <4CD86FCB.60306@gmail.com> <4CD87217.6060006@neurotica.com> <4CD8756E.6030108@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4CD87946.4060608@neurotica.com> On 11/8/10 5:10 PM, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >>> Actually I'm pretty sure it's possible to disable the bus arbiter and >>> make >>> them just pull power from the bus. I'm not 100% certain but I believe >>> I've >>> seen it done. >> >> I was going with what Sun said. I actually have four of them and >> thought it would cool to set them up as a quad processor system. Do >> you have a pointer to where someone has done this? > > What Dave's talking about and what you're talking about aren't the same > thing. In his configuration, it ends up as four systems in one box. Yes, either four independent systems or a "failover" setup. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Mon Nov 8 16:31:14 2010 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2010 22:31:14 -0000 Subject: Dell Refurbished DEC (?!) Message-ID: <007401cb7f94$a88a3bb0$f99eb310$@ntlworld.com> Just noticed a number of items like this one http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260689944041 appear on eBay. These are strange listings. First I would be very surprised if Dell refurbished vintage DEC stuff. Second it is listed as refurbished but is also described as being in New condition. Has anyone ever dealt with this seller? They seem to have good feedback. I wouldn't buy at that price in any case, but just curious I suppose. Regards Rob From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Mon Nov 8 16:32:14 2010 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2010 23:32:14 +0100 Subject: PDP-11/34A bring up In-Reply-To: <20101101152950.GF2158@n0jcf.net> <20101104184634.GP15701@n0jcf.net><20101108190234.GF16652@n0jcf.net> References: <20101101152950.GF2158@n0jcf.net> <20101104184634.GP15701@n0jcf.net><20101108190234.GF16652@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: > On 11/8/10, Chris Elmquist wrote: >> Seems silly but it might be easier to scavenge the connector off the back >> of a dead RL01 or RL02 and make it into the transition than to find the >> actual transition! > > It's the same part, AFAIK. What I have on one rack is a special DEC > mounting bracket that can accept two of the round-cable-to-flat-cable > transitions - it's a bit larger than a pack of playing cards and > easily affixes to an H960. Mine has one transition connector, but > there is room to mount a second one. Having worked on a few RL01/RL02 > drives, ISTR it's the same part that's bolted to the back of the > drives. That is correct. I also have the bracket that Ethan describes mounted on a post at the rear side of an H960. In an other rack I needed that mounting bracket, but they are not an easy find. I removed the two connectors from a really dead RL01. On the outside fits the RL connector, on the other side fits a 40-pin IDC header, which in fact is mounted in the RL drive! I just connected the round cable to the drive, the other end of the round cable has the connector scavenged from the dead drive, and from that goes the ribbon cable to the header on the RL11. I used a string of wire hung from post to post to hang the ribbon cable / round cable inside the rack. Ugly, but functional till I find an other mounting bracket. > All drives: round cable with ZIF on each end to go from drive to > drive, plus ZIF-connector terminator that is externally identical to, > but not electrically identical to RK06/RK07 terminator. Jup. RK06/07 cables can be used to connect RL drives, but RL cables miss one or two wires which are used in RK06/07 drives. I should get that (and which wire/pins actually) written down somewhere. - Henk. From rborsuk at colourfull.com Mon Nov 8 16:34:43 2010 From: rborsuk at colourfull.com (Robert Borsuk) Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2010 17:34:43 -0500 Subject: ProFiles scans... In-Reply-To: References: <8F8EA353-C4CF-47AB-8552-D02EFD286DAD@microspot.co.uk> from "Roger Holmes" at Nov 8, 10 12:53:43 pm Message-ID: On Nov 8, 2010, at 3:28 PM, Gene Buckle wrote: > ...are complete from the collection I had. Another 20+ issues went up on Saturday and I updated the descriptions a bit on Sunday. > > http://www.retroarchive.org > > g. > > > -- > Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 > http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. > http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project Nice work Gene. I've been reading away. Thanks Rob (still without a Kaypro :) Robert Borsuk rborsuk at colourfull.com Colourfull Creations http://www.colourfull.com From cclist at sydex.com Mon Nov 8 16:42:19 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 08 Nov 2010 14:42:19 -0800 Subject: Virtual memory In-Reply-To: <4CD82AF8.8010907@softjar.se> References: , <4CD82AF8.8010907@softjar.se> Message-ID: <4CD80C4B.5108.149BC2B@cclist.sydex.com> On 8 Nov 2010 at 17:53, Johnny Billquist wrote: > I tried to find any manuals on bitsavers, but I can't see anything > about a CDC 7000 there... */pdf/cdc/cyber/scope/60372600E_SCOPE2.1ug_Mar78.pdf (You sort of had to know that SCOPE 2 and 2.1 were 7600 products. Scope 3.x ran on 6000-series products.) And for the 7600 hardware: */pdf/cdc/cyber/cyber_70/60258200C_7600_RefMan_Feb71.pdf * = substitute your favorite bitsavers mirror here. --Chuck From geneb at deltasoft.com Mon Nov 8 16:04:31 2010 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2010 14:04:31 -0800 (PST) Subject: ProFiles scans... In-Reply-To: References: <8F8EA353-C4CF-47AB-8552-D02EFD286DAD@microspot.co.uk> from "Roger Holmes" at Nov 8, 10 12:53:43 pm Message-ID: On Mon, 8 Nov 2010, Robert Borsuk wrote: > > On Nov 8, 2010, at 3:28 PM, Gene Buckle wrote: > >> ...are complete from the collection I had. Another 20+ issues went up on Saturday and I updated the descriptions a bit on Sunday. >> >> http://www.retroarchive.org >> >> g. >> >> >> -- >> Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 >> http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. >> http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project > > > Nice work Gene. I've been reading away. > You're quite welcome Rob! g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From auringer at tds.net Mon Nov 8 16:46:46 2010 From: auringer at tds.net (auringer tds.net) Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2010 16:46:46 -0600 Subject: Help with testing Sun CP1500-440 In-Reply-To: <4CD8756E.6030108@gmail.com> References: <4CD86DBC.5080702@neurotica.com> <4CD86FCB.60306@gmail.com> <4CD87217.6060006@neurotica.com> <4CD8756E.6030108@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Nov 8, 2010 at 4:10 PM, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > What Dave's talking about and what you're talking about aren't the same > thing. ?In his configuration, it ends up as four systems in one box. Yes, I see that. It might make for an interesting "beowulf" style cluster to play with though. -Jon From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Nov 8 16:52:38 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 08 Nov 2010 17:52:38 -0500 Subject: Help with testing Sun CP1500-440 In-Reply-To: References: <4CD86DBC.5080702@neurotica.com> <4CD86FCB.60306@gmail.com> <4CD87217.6060006@neurotica.com> <4CD8756E.6030108@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4CD87F36.9000903@neurotica.com> On 11/8/10 5:46 PM, auringer tds.net wrote: >> What Dave's talking about and what you're talking about aren't the same >> thing. In his configuration, it ends up as four systems in one box. > > Yes, I see that. It might make for an interesting "beowulf" style > cluster to play with though. If you end up doing that, I have a few more of those boards. Though for clustering applications, while the UltraSPARC-II has excellent integer performance, it is a bit weak in floating point. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From rdawson16 at hotmail.com Mon Nov 8 16:51:20 2010 From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson) Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2010 16:51:20 -0600 Subject: FFS Sun monitor In-Reply-To: References: , , , Message-ID: From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com To: innfoclassics at gmail.com Subject: RE: FFS Sun monitor Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2010 16:50:16 -0600 Paxton's got the scopes too. Its good to see stuff go to a good home. Fellow packrats unite! Randy From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com To: innfoclassics at gmail.com Subject: RE: FFS Sun monitor Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2010 16:24:07 -0600 Hi Paxton, Its yours. Call me and we will arrange things. I need to leave here by 5PM tomorrow for a ham meeting... I also have a couple of oscilloscopes, low end, probably 5 MHz bandwidth a Sencore and a Heathkit, 5 inch CRTs if anybody wants them. Randy 503-352-4612 > Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2010 13:46:42 -0800 > Subject: Re: FFS Sun monitor > From: innfoclassics at gmail.com > To: rdawson16 at hotmail.com > > On Mon, Nov 8, 2010 at 1:54 AM, Randy Dawson wrote: > > > > Its large and heavy 19" ... > > > > Works fine with vga at hi res,and has attached cables for the sun. > > > > Its going to the recycle unless you guys want it. > > > > Randy > > > > > Hi Randy, > > I am interested in the monitor. I have a couple of Sun boxes that do > not have a monitor. > > I am in Eugene at the moment but going back to Astoria tomorrow, Tuesday. > > I could stop by tomorrow afternoon on my way through if it is still available. > > Paxton > > > > -- > Paxton Hoag > Astoria, OR > USA From auringer at tds.net Mon Nov 8 17:10:27 2010 From: auringer at tds.net (auringer tds.net) Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2010 17:10:27 -0600 Subject: Help with testing Sun CP1500-440 In-Reply-To: <4CD87F36.9000903@neurotica.com> References: <4CD86DBC.5080702@neurotica.com> <4CD86FCB.60306@gmail.com> <4CD87217.6060006@neurotica.com> <4CD8756E.6030108@gmail.com> <4CD87F36.9000903@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Nov 8, 2010 at 4:52 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > ?If you end up doing that, I have a few more of those boards. ?Though for > clustering applications, while the UltraSPARC-II has excellent integer > performance, it is a bit weak in floating point. Yes, I've heard that before... Oh yes, I think you said that the other day. :) I wasn't thinking that it would be a great number cruncher, just that it would be fast enough to make it fun, unlike the stack of Sparcstation 1s I had thought about trying at one time. :O Thanks for the input. -Jon P.S. Dave, I will give some thought to your offer of the T1-105 and get back to you. From pete at dunnington.plus.com Mon Nov 8 17:17:17 2010 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Mon, 08 Nov 2010 23:17:17 +0000 Subject: PDP-11/34A bring up In-Reply-To: References: <20101101152950.GF2158@n0jcf.net> <20101104184634.GP15701@n0jcf.net> <20101108190234.GF16652@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <4CD884FD.80205@dunnington.plus.com> Ethan Dicks wrote: >> Did the transition (which I'm sure has a more proper DEC name) originally >> come with the RL01/02? The RL11 or equiv controller? or with the rack? > > I _think_ it was part of the cab kit with the controller. All the ones I've seen were supplied that way, as part of the controller kit. > The arrangements I know of are... > > RL8A - round cable with a ZIF end for the drive and a 2x20 "Berg" end > for the controller BC80J, described as 13 twisted pairs. > RLV11/RLV12 - round cable with ZIF end for the drive and a 2x20 Berg > end for the controller, but a different DEC P/N than the RL8A cable > (not positive and if true, don't remember why it's different). BC80M/KG. It's listed as 13 twisted pairs shielded. Was the BC80J not shielded? That was used for 11/23-Plus systems with an RLV12 and dual RL02s, but all the RLV11s and some RLV12s I've seen in the UK had the same arrangement you described for the RL11 - flat cable from controller to rack bracket, round grey cables with ZIFs on both ends from rack bracket to drive, and drive to drive. Most of the QBus RL-based systems I've seen were complete 11T23 or 11T03 systems in a cabinet with two RL01 or two RL02 and a CPU box. The 11T23 manual says "A BC06R 40-conductor ribbon cable connects to J1 on the disk control module. The other end of this cable connects to a transition bracket on a mounting bar located above the PDP-11/23." Sadly it gives the part numbers for the I/O cables (BC20J, aka 70-12122-10) and the terminator (70-12293) but not the transition connector. And guess which page of my IPB fiche is missing :-( -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From lynchaj at yahoo.com Mon Nov 8 19:11:32 2010 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2010 20:11:32 -0500 Subject: S-100 board PCB planning Message-ID: <34A81DBE2C0D486E83EFA0DB46B15DC7@andrewdesktop> http://classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/2010-November/293791.html >Hi Andrew. > I am restoring a Northstar Horizion. Would any of your boards be suitable >substitutes for the original NS ones? > > >Regards >? >Rod Smallwood Hi Rod! Thanks! The boards would likely work in a NorthStar Horizon as it is a fairly normal S-100 system. The boards are designed to be strictly IEEE-696 compatible so either they would work as is or require some minor adjustment. They are not strict NorthStar replacement parts though. They would compliment a NorthStar system nicely I think but it would depend on the board and how you use it. It is hard to say without knowing your specific application though. Allison covered the topic pretty well in her commentary. My recommendation is to check out S100computers.com and see the documentation on the boards and see if this would interest you. There are a lot of photos, explanations, and videos of the various boards in action. http://classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/2010-November/293798.html [Alexandre Souza] > Andrew, I'm **VERY** interesting in knowing more about S-100 boards. How >much would it cost? > The S100computers.com and N8VEM S-100 boards are an all volunteer amateur run project. They are roughly at cost for the PCB manufacturing. They are $20 per PCB with $3 shipping in the US and $6 shipping elsewhere. These are group purchases of boards for hobbyists by other hobbyists. I am not soliciting sales for the boards. What I am asking is if hobbyists are interested in getting these boards to contact me and tell which ones they want. I will order/reorder boards when the "waiting list" for any given board gets large enough to warrant an order. This is not a business as I am trying to organize a group buy of the boards. John and I are ordering boards for ourselves anyway so I thought to offer to the community if there were other interested hobbyists. There are about 50-60 S-100 builders on the private distribution list now. All of the boards are documented at S100computers.com and the N8VEM wiki. The design information for hardware, software, schematics, PCB layout, parts list, build instructions, etc are freely available and posted online. If you can't find it please ask and hopefully I'll update the website. I hope this helps. Thanks and have a nice day! Andrew Lynch From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Mon Nov 8 21:31:00 2010 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Mon, 08 Nov 2010 19:31:00 -0800 Subject: Terak Boot behavior? Message-ID: <4CD8C074.7000701@mail.msu.edu> Hi all -- I've made a small bit of progress with my new Terak. The power supply seems to be working fine, and after going over everything and cleaning the old crumbly foam out, cleaning edge connectors, and reseating everything it now gives the impression that it's trying to boot. (And Al's been kind enough to send me a few images from the CHM, so I have something to try and boot!) However, I've never actually seen one of these in action before, so I have no idea what the expected behavior actually is. I currently get nothing on the display (the CRT is lighting up and if I turn the brightness up I can see a raster, so I know it's at least minimally functional) and I get no sounds from the speaker. The drive seeks back to track 0, pauses for 1-2 seconds and then and seems to briefly access the disk for another second. Then, nothing. Can anyone who has used one of these before tell me if this is anywhere close to expected behavior? Is it possible to get a serial console on these (and is there anything like a PDP-11 ODT prompt?) Thanks, Josh From snhirsch at gmail.com Mon Nov 8 17:33:05 2010 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2010 18:33:05 -0500 (EST) Subject: Advin PILOT-142 programmer sw? In-Reply-To: <20101108190749.GG16652@n0jcf.net> References: <20101108190749.GG16652@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 8 Nov 2010, Chris Elmquist wrote: > I was recently given an Advin Systems PILOT-142 device programmer... but > of course no software with it. > > I downloaded Advin's Captain v1.34 software for XP from their website, > where they claim support for the model -142 but after installing and > launching the software, it reports that it does not work with the > "revision" of my programmer. > > There are no revision or series marks on the unit other than the PILOT-142 > sticker above the power switch... so I don't know what makes it different. > > Email to Advin says they have NO software that supports the -142 even > if their website says otherwise. Advin are just useless.. I was contemplating the purchase of a smaller Pilot programmer on eBay and dropped them a note to make sure that the bipolar PROM family was covered. They told me to "..download the Captain software and see what it offered on the menu". The implication being that anything in the software was supported by the programmer. The software featured all the PROM types I was interested in! Good news. Bad News: $150 + shipping later, I discovered that it produced only errors when trying to read a PROM. Dropped another note to their "tech support" folks and a different person responded with "..oh, that model doesn't support PROMs" (!) In frustration, I asked why I had been told to look at the software for answers. The response was along the lines of "well after you looked at it you should have contacted us to see what that hardware actually covers...". Which, of course, had been the original question. They are now prominently on my crap-list of vendors to avoid. Steve p.s. - Good luck with the software! -- From dan at decodesystems.com Mon Nov 8 20:50:58 2010 From: dan at decodesystems.com (Dan Veeneman) Date: Mon, 08 Nov 2010 21:50:58 -0500 Subject: Advin PILOT-142 programmer sw? In-Reply-To: <20101108190749.GG16652@n0jcf.net> References: <20101108190749.GG16652@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <4CD8B712.90206@decodesystems.com> Hi Chris, I've got DOS-based Advin Pilot software from the 2004 timeframe. Contact me offlist and we'll work out how to get it to you. Regards, Dan dan at decodesystems.com www.decodesystems.com On 11/8/2010 2:07 PM, Chris Elmquist wrote: > I was recently given an Advin Systems PILOT-142 device programmer... but > of course no software with it. > > I downloaded Advin's Captain v1.34 software for XP from their website, > where they claim support for the model -142 but after installing and > launching the software, it reports that it does not work with the > "revision" of my programmer. > > There are no revision or series marks on the unit other than the PILOT-142 > sticker above the power switch... so I don't know what makes it different. > > Email to Advin says they have NO software that supports the -142 even > if their website says otherwise. > > In any case, I'm looking for anyone that might have DOS or Win software > for this older beast. It would be a nice unit for burning 2716, 2732 > and a number of old PALs that I would like to do. > > Chris > From roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk Tue Nov 9 03:15:45 2010 From: roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk (Roger Holmes) Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2010 09:15:45 +0000 Subject: Virtual memory In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <275ED284-11E4-4B6D-8BAE-70009B09843E@microspot.co.uk> > From: Johnny Billquist > > Gah. I have no idea what PPU mean, nor PP. You're probably just not old enough. In the 50s the main processor was called the CPU (Central Processing Unit) to differentiate it from the various PPUs, (Peripheral Processing Units). The first machine I programmed, the IBM 7094 had a CPU and two PPUs, one to read cards and write the images to tape transports, which would then be switched over to the CPU to read, compile and execute the job and write the results back to another tape transport which then got switched to the other PPU which then transferred the tape image to a line printer. Somehow now (when most peripherals have embedded processors which could be called PPUs) we seem to have stopped using the term. From rodsmallwood at btconnect.com Tue Nov 9 03:42:25 2010 From: rodsmallwood at btconnect.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2010 09:42:25 -0000 Subject: S-100 board PCB planning In-Reply-To: <4CD874DC.9030201@verizon.net> References: <2C73185CCA65453797D99F6916EA7757@RodsDevSystem> <4CD874DC.9030201@verizon.net> Message-ID: Hi Thanks for the reply. Well I do have a genuine (N*H) motherboard. The serial I/O is on the motherboard so I am assuming it will boot to ROM Monitor with just the N*H CPU card in position. As you confirm that it?s a generic S100 motherboard then other non N*H S100 boards may well run. Regards ? Rod Smallwood ? -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of allison Sent: 08 November 2010 22:08 To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only Subject: Re: S-100 board PCB planning On 11/08/2010 01:20 AM, Rod Smallwood wrote: > ********************** Attention Bob Rosenbloom *********************** > Please contact me at rodsmallwood at btconnect.com my email re NS boards keeps > bouncing back. > > > Hi Andrew. > I am restoring a Northstar Horizion. Would any of your boards be suitable > substitutes for the original NS ones? > > > As NS* user the answer is sorta. The board will plug in but none are NS* replacements if only the include things NS* never imagined or implemented. In short, all of those boards can be used in a NS* Horizon as the backplane in that machine is generic S100 and oddly enough 99% IEEE696 compatable (needs terminations, and only for 8bit IO) and already has two serial, parallel ports, interrupt logic plus interrupt control. However stock NS* cards are not completely 696 compatible so some care with mixing them needs to be taken. The yabut is that none are replacement cards, though most would extend the machine nicely especially the z80/floppy and the IDE. I happen to have two NS* horizons. One I built in 1978 and all the boards are non stock and it has things like 10mhz z80(modified Compupro CPU-Z), 256kB ram with banking, 8085/765 smart FDC (supports 8" and 3.5", BIOS on board), Teltek HDC (2 D540s for 62mb total), smart IDE/CF(64MB installed, smart part if the BIOS is fully implemented it it), 512K MdriveH ramdisk, 256K romdisk, CompuPro MPX1 (intelligent IO slave), Smart printer buffer(128K/8049), fast serial (8049 8251) for buffered serial support. Generally runs a very modified version of CP/M-80 with multitasking and mountable drive support added. The other is a rock stock NS* 64K Horizon with either a SD or DD controller ( I have both for it). Runs NSDOS, CP/M, UCSD Pascal. Allison > Regards > > Rod Smallwood > -----Original Message----- > From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] > On Behalf Of Andrew Lynch > Sent: 06 November 2010 15:34 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: S-100 board PCB planning > > Hi! Over the last couple of years several of us at N8VEM, > S100computers.com, and others have been building S-100 boards. This summer > we did a major update/respin cycle to the boards and made manufactured PCBs > for many builders. For a while it seemed to satisfy the demand for DIY > hobbyist S-100 PCBs but now the interest is starting to pick up again so I > thought I would send an update to any S-100 enthusiasts on CCTALK. > > I will reorder/respin S-100 PCBs once the interest level gets to an > economically viable level for a group purchase. Normally that is around > 25-30 PCBs I know builders want which makes a cost at $20 plus shipping per > PCB affordable for most builders. This compromise balance seems to work > well and we've produced several S-100 boards this way. Here are the boards > we've made so far: > > S-100 regular prototyping board (some remaining) > > S-100 buffered prototyping board (some remaining) > > S-100 backplane (8 slot plus utility circuitry - one left) > > S-100 IDE (hard drive, CD-ROM, CF, ATAPI, etc) > > S-100 parallel ASCII keyboard (just received a new batch of respin > PCBs) > > S-100 4MB SRAM (Flash, etc) > > S-100 system monitor (similar to Jade Bus Probe but two PCB set - > one or two remain) > > S-100 bus extender (with logic probe, indicator LEDs, etc) > > S-100 EPROM (SRAM, EEPROM, Flash, etc) > > S-100 IO (dual serial, USB, voice synthesis, etc) > > S-100 PIC/RTC > > All of these have gone through at least one or two internal prototype > iterations plus one or more manufactured PCB orders. Since we respin the > boards based on builder feedback obviously the later generations of boards > tend to be "cleaner" than the earlier ones. This is an all volunteer > amateur project so the builders *are* the developers, QA, testers, etc in > addition to using the boards. > > There are four boards in active development and/or approaching manufactured > PCB stage > > S-100 Z80 CPU (just ordered first batch of manufactured PCBs after > two rounds of prototype build and test) > > S-100 Console IO (dual Propeller VGA, PS/2 keyboard, microSD, > Ethernet, etc - first iteration prototype boards ordered) > > S-100 ZFDC intelligent floppy drive controller (Z80/WD2793 second > iteration prototype board imminent) > > S-100 68K CPU (first iteration prototype boards ordered) > > Please note the above boards no longer *planned* they are actual boards in > some form or another. There are several more in the planning stages but I > won't waste your time with those since those plans change often. All of the > schematics, PCB layouts, bill of materials, etc are available on either the > N8VEM wiki or S100Computers.com website including build instructions for the > most part. > > These are noncommercial Do It Yourself (DIY) hobbyist PCBs. They are not > perfect nor is this a business. John's apt description from comp.os.cpm > captures it well "Andrew Lynch (at N8VEM) see > (http://n8vem-sbc.pbworks.com/) and I, are in the process of having a few > commercial quality S-100 cards made for ourselves. If others are interested > in obtaining a bare card, let Andrew or I know. Please note these would be > bare cards, a schematic and that's it. Building the board and implementing > CPM etc., you are on your own. This is not a project for first timers." > > In other words, if you want to play along that's great but this is purely > "CAVEAT EMPTOR" and there are no assurances, guarantees, or warrantees on > any aspect of the boards. > > Please this is offered as an information post to interested vintage/classic > computer hobbyists not an invitation for flames and pointless criticisms. > Please be courteous and keep those to yourself. As always, questions, > comments and *constructive* criticism welcome. > > Thanks and have a nice day! > > Andrew Lynch > > > From rodsmallwood at btconnect.com Tue Nov 9 03:45:29 2010 From: rodsmallwood at btconnect.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2010 09:45:29 -0000 Subject: S-100 board PCB planning In-Reply-To: <34A81DBE2C0D486E83EFA0DB46B15DC7@andrewdesktop> References: <34A81DBE2C0D486E83EFA0DB46B15DC7@andrewdesktop> Message-ID: <7285E976C55540EA962A7E8E55F91DC2@RodsDevSystem> OK I'll go look.. Regards ? Rod Smallwood ? ? -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Andrew Lynch Sent: 09 November 2010 01:12 To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: S-100 board PCB planning http://classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/2010-November/293791.html >Hi Andrew. > I am restoring a Northstar Horizion. Would any of your boards be suitable >substitutes for the original NS ones? > > >Regards >? >Rod Smallwood Hi Rod! Thanks! The boards would likely work in a NorthStar Horizon as it is a fairly normal S-100 system. The boards are designed to be strictly IEEE-696 compatible so either they would work as is or require some minor adjustment. They are not strict NorthStar replacement parts though. They would compliment a NorthStar system nicely I think but it would depend on the board and how you use it. It is hard to say without knowing your specific application though. Allison covered the topic pretty well in her commentary. My recommendation is to check out S100computers.com and see the documentation on the boards and see if this would interest you. There are a lot of photos, explanations, and videos of the various boards in action. http://classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/2010-November/293798.html [Alexandre Souza] > Andrew, I'm **VERY** interesting in knowing more about S-100 boards. How >much would it cost? > The S100computers.com and N8VEM S-100 boards are an all volunteer amateur run project. They are roughly at cost for the PCB manufacturing. They are $20 per PCB with $3 shipping in the US and $6 shipping elsewhere. These are group purchases of boards for hobbyists by other hobbyists. I am not soliciting sales for the boards. What I am asking is if hobbyists are interested in getting these boards to contact me and tell which ones they want. I will order/reorder boards when the "waiting list" for any given board gets large enough to warrant an order. This is not a business as I am trying to organize a group buy of the boards. John and I are ordering boards for ourselves anyway so I thought to offer to the community if there were other interested hobbyists. There are about 50-60 S-100 builders on the private distribution list now. All of the boards are documented at S100computers.com and the N8VEM wiki. The design information for hardware, software, schematics, PCB layout, parts list, build instructions, etc are freely available and posted online. If you can't find it please ask and hopefully I'll update the website. I hope this helps. Thanks and have a nice day! Andrew Lynch From bqt at softjar.se Tue Nov 9 04:22:01 2010 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Tue, 09 Nov 2010 11:22:01 +0100 Subject: Virtual memory In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CD920C9.2030803@softjar.se> On 11/06/10 02:03, Brent Hilpert wrote: > Flogging a dead horse perhaps, as I believe the discussion is simply a > matter of differing definitions of the phrase "virtual memory", but > let's try a different approach: Nothing like flogging dead horses... :-) > Suppose we have a machine which at the instruction level provides > 32-bit addresses, that is, it presents a 32-bit address space (4GB) to > the user. However, there is only 1 MB of physical RAM memory in the > machine. That is one scenario, but definitely not the only one. Part of the problem is that people seems to want to limit them self to this scenario, and of course, if you start at that end, then you will more or less always end up in the same place you just do here. :-) > Without trying to go through the whole history of OS development > (leaving out things such as overlays, shared libs, etc.), and without > accounting for memory required by the kernel/OS for simplicity, > consider several scenarios: > > - 1. User addresses map directly to physical addresses. > User address 0 is physical address 0. The user address space is > obviously > limited to 1MB or less of memory and the user will be aware of such > if an > attempt to address beyond that is made. Yes. And if you have several processes, they are all aware of each others memory space, and care must be taken that they do not wander outside their own confinements and clobber things in the system (including the OS). Programs must be written to be memory aware, and either PIC, or else linked to run at a specific address, since there is no virtual memory. > - 2. We add an MMU to map addresses. > Multiple user address spaces may exist and can be mapped to different > areas in physical memory. User address 0 may or may not ref physical > address 0. > A user is still aware of a limited address space dictated by the 1MB > of > physical memory. The total of the user address spaces cannot exceed > 1MB. Indeed. And it can be an arbitrary lower limit than 1 MB as well. And at this point, programs can be written to not be memory aware. All programs can be written without consideration to what addresses they use. All can be linked to start at the same address, and run in parallel. They are not aware of, nor do they see other programs memory space. They can be PIC, or position dependent. They can clobber all their memory, and the system itself is not affected. > - 3. We add swapping-to-disk. > The system as a whole is no longer limited to 1MB of memory, there > may be > multiple user address spaces totalling more than 1MB of memory. Each > user > however, is still limited to a max of 1MB of address space, i.e. > each user > is still aware of the limited physical memory. Right. Adding swap does nothing more than grow the capacity of the system total. For a single process, it is invisible. > - 4. We add address-faulting, demand-paging - whatever one wants to > call it. > The user address space is no longer limited by physical memory. The > user can > hit any address in their 32-bit space and (magically) find a valid > memory > location there. More physical memory can be added (or removed) > 'underneath' > the user(s) without their awareness. Except, or course, the OS can still limit you to use less than 1 MB. Adding paging does nothing for the individual program as such. It is totally invisible. You might argue that it gives you the possibility to use more memory than physically available, and that is true, but that is at the discretion of the OS. To get more memory, you will need to call the OS to request more memory, and the OS can allow or deny this request. Same as in #2 above. > By the nomenclature I grew up with or suffer under, the term "virtual > memory" only applies in scenario 4, although "virtual addresses" could > be said to have been introduced in scenario 2. The difference between 2 and 4 is only that the OS *can* allow you to use more memory in scenario 4, not that it necessarily will allow it. > Or, scenario 4 was my understanding of the *commonly-agreed-upon > application* of the phrase "virtual memory", although I would not argue > that in a very general sense it may be applied to scenario 2 or 3. The difference between 2, 3 and 4 is actually extremely vague. The only actual difference is that the OS *can* allow you to use more memory. But let's say that the OS will not. Does that suddenly mean that you don't have virtual memory, even though it is indeed using page demand loading and all that fancy stuff? And this also totally ignores the scenario that exists under the PDP-11, and which started this thread. What if you have more physical memory than can be addressed by virtual memory? That's a whole different ballgame, and is not covered by any of your scenarios... All in good spirit. :-) Johnny From bqt at softjar.se Tue Nov 9 04:42:28 2010 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Tue, 09 Nov 2010 11:42:28 +0100 Subject: Virtual memory In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CD92594.50201@softjar.se> On 11/06/10 02:03, "Chuck Guzis" wrote: > On 5 Nov 2010 at 15:09, Brent Hilpert wrote: > >> > By the nomenclature I grew up with or suffer under, the term "virtual >> > memory" only applies in scenario 4, although "virtual addresses" could >> > be said to have been introduced in scenario 2. > My original definition was that "virtual memory" was the ability of a > system (hardware, software, whatever) to fool a program into thinking > that there was more memory present than was physically the case. > > Johnny (and please forgive me if I got this wrong) tied it into the > ability to present each user with a address space, such that two > users could use the same address space, but have different data. Key > was the claim that a system with more physical memory than the user > could directly address still qualified as virtual memory. > > I don't tie virtual memory into paging or even to multi-tasking or > multi-user, although I'll concede that paging is a way (albeit > rather simple-minded) to implement it. The Burroughs B5000 didn't > employ paging and yet I think few would argue that it did not > implement virtual memory (and quite possibly the earliest commercial > use of it). Yeah, you got more more or less right. Virtual memory according to me (well, I got the definition from DEC) is the appearance of memory that is your "own" although you in fact are running on a system with many processes running concurrently. You can do anything with your memory, and it will not affect anyone else. It's like your own sandbox. You can do anything in there. Obviously, this is not really tied into paging, nor multi-tasking (you can have this with just one process, still protecting the OS from you). Obviously, I do not tie memory sizes on either end to what virtual memory is. You know, things like overlays are actually a form of paging as well, and is a solution to allow you to have more memory used than physically exist in the computer, and yet it don't require virtual memory to implement this. (Heck, I just came up with an example of paging and memory sizes that is totally disconnected to virtual memory, or page tables, or anything close to that.) Johnny From bqt at softjar.se Tue Nov 9 04:53:40 2010 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Tue, 09 Nov 2010 11:53:40 +0100 Subject: PDP-11 firsts? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CD92834.7040402@softjar.se> On 11/06/10 02:03, ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > >>>>>> > >>> > > The Philips P800 series has the PC as a general register (register 0). >>>>> > >> > >>>>> > >> > Could you use it like any other register? >>> > > There were some restrictions. I don't think you could shift it (at least >>> > > ont on the P850). But for many instructions it was just another register. >> > >> > Cool. So you could add to it, index by it, and so on? > I think so. I can't find my programemrs pocekt guide fo the machine at > the momnet. But I am pretty sure that register 0 could often be used like > any other register. Ok. Nice. > There is at least one oddity. There are no autoicrement/autodecrement > adressing modes on the P800s. However, in some cases, if you use the PC > in some instructions it is autoincrements. For example the 'immediate' > addrtessign mode isessentialy a (PC) operation (i.e. take the word > pointed to by register 0) and has that bit pattern. But for obvious > reaosns the PC is autoincrements then. The PDP-11 actually pulls that trick on a few addressing modes as well. Addressing mode 6 and 7 autoincrement the register if it is the PC, but not for other registers. (So a thing like MOV FOO,R0 is encoded as MOV x(PC),R0 .WORD .-FOO and the PC should obviously be incremented again here, but x(Rn) does not exist as a variant with autoincrement of the register.) >>> > > I guess the P800 wasn't totally ortogonal but it was a lot more >>> > > orthogonal than many other machines. >> > >> > Indeed sounds nice. When did the machine appear? > My P850 CPU service manual is copyright 1972, which alas puts it after > the PDP11, but I thoguht the series was around a bit before that. Hmm. Maybe still a first for the PDP-11 then...? :-) >>>>>> > >>> > > What do you mean by condition codes here? >>>>> > >> > >>>>> > >> > The four low bits of PSW. >>> > > Err... I don;t think that's helpful. Quite a lot of machines with a >>> > > status register have a 'low 4 bits' of it:-). But that doens't make them >>> > > condition codes. Similarly uf you hapopen to implement the same >>> > > functionality using other bits of a status registers, doesn't that make >>> > > them condition codes? >>> > > >>> > > What I was asking was what fucntionality do you require of these >>> > > condtiion codes other than there being conditional jumps on carry, zero, etc? >> > >> > Sorry. I was just being lazy, and trying to explain condition codes by >> > referring to what they are on the PDP-11. >> > >> > To try and be more specific then: condition codes are bits that are >> > set/reset as a result of operations performed by the processed, and upon >> > which you can the make conditional branches/jumps on. > Now the P800 has a very odd way of doing this. There is a 2 bit status > registers. It is set differnet ways according to the results of some > instructiuos (for example, an arithmetic instruciton will set it one way > if the result is 0, a differnet way if there's a carry out, etc). I/O > operations set it one way for device ready, another for certain errors, etc. > > The condtional branches have a 3-bit condition field. You can branch on > the status beits being any particualr value (00, 01, 10, 11), them not > being one of 3 values 9I forget which one is omitted) or 'always' Sounds slightly different than the condition codes of the PDP-11 then, but not really like the immediate test and do instructions like the PDP-10. Closer to the PDP-11, it would seem. Johnny From ajp166 at verizon.net Tue Nov 9 07:01:47 2010 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Tue, 09 Nov 2010 08:01:47 -0500 Subject: S-100 board PCB planning In-Reply-To: References: <2C73185CCA65453797D99F6916EA7757@RodsDevSystem> <4CD874DC.9030201@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4CD9463B.5070302@verizon.net> On 11/09/2010 04:42 AM, Rod Smallwood wrote: > Hi > Thanks for the reply. Well I do have a genuine (N*H) motherboard. > The serial I/O is on the motherboard so I am assuming it will boot to ROM > Monitor with just the N*H CPU card in position. As you confirm that it?s a > generic S100 motherboard then other non N*H S100 boards may well run. > > > Wrong on the boot monitor. Standard NS* the boot is on the FDC card and is only enough to boot a floppy. the nominal location for that boot rom is E800 and is either 256(SD) or 512(DD) bytes. A minimal NS* must have CPU, FDC with one drive, and 16K ram, and the left serial prot configured/populated to boot/run NSdos. As NS* basic is nearly 24K a usable system is 32K but 56K is preferred. The backplane is a standard S100 bus save for the back end has two serial IO, parallel IO, and interrupt and heartbeat logic. Most other vendors put that on a seperate serial parallel card. That area also contains the 5V/12V regulators for the dual floppies. There is NO rom back there. If you want a bootable monitor I suggest a CPU-Z or similar with rom on the cpu card and put your own or some prefered monitor in that. the best address for that rom and (any extra ram) is in the 0xF000 to 0xFFFF block. This space is normally unused in NS* systems as the FDC fills the 0xE800-0xEFFF block breaking up the address space. Cards I know run well in the NS* backplane.. Compupro: CPU-Z, DIsk1(and A), Disk2, Disk3, MPX1, Interfacer series,M-driveH, and ram16, 17 (all ram if CPU-Z is used due to banking). I've also used the 8085/8088 card with ram22 and 23 boards. NOTE: the CPU-Z can be configured with 2k Eprom and 2K ram (at f000 and f800) making it desirable to debug a dead NS* system. SBC880 cpu [my prefered card to test and debug a dead NS*.] California Computer Systems cards all work, note they also have banking so jumper must be set to match the CPU in use. [ I have a spare full set of CCS cards in a third NS* chassis that work fine.] Generally the NS* Z80 cpu card is a good one but the rom position is 2708 and hard to populate making it harder to use for debugging a dead system. The typical failure point for dead NS* systems or boards is either the bus interface chips because people pull the card before waiting for the bus voltages to bleed down or the FDC has a problem (won't boot). The most common FDC problem is not bus level interface chips is crappy sockets. During part of the production life NS* used a cheap side wipe socket and they fatigue and make bad/intermittent/no contact. I've worked on a large number of FDC boards (both SD and DD) with this problem. The other problem to note is that a SD system will not boot a DD disk and a DD system will not boot a SD disk(it can read/write it but not boot it). Find a source of 10 hole hard sector media as it is scarce. Allison > Regards > > Rod Smallwood > > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] > On Behalf Of allison > Sent: 08 November 2010 22:08 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only > Subject: Re: S-100 board PCB planning > > On 11/08/2010 01:20 AM, Rod Smallwood wrote: > >> ********************** Attention Bob Rosenbloom *********************** >> Please contact me at rodsmallwood at btconnect.com my email re NS boards >> > keeps > >> bouncing back. >> >> >> Hi Andrew. >> I am restoring a Northstar Horizion. Would any of your boards be >> > suitable > >> substitutes for the original NS ones? >> >> >> >> > As NS* user the answer is sorta. The board will plug in but none are NS* > replacements if only the include things NS* never imagined or implemented. > > In short, all of those boards can be used in a NS* Horizon as the backplane > in that machine is generic S100 and oddly enough 99% IEEE696 compatable > (needs terminations, and only for 8bit IO) and already has two serial, > parallel > ports, interrupt logic plus interrupt control. However stock NS* cards > are not > completely 696 compatible so some care with mixing them needs to be taken. > The yabut is that none are replacement cards, though most would extend the > machine nicely especially the z80/floppy and the IDE. > > I happen to have two NS* horizons. > > One I built in 1978 and all the boards are non stock and it has things like > 10mhz z80(modified Compupro CPU-Z), 256kB ram with banking, 8085/765 > smart FDC (supports 8" and 3.5", BIOS on board), Teltek HDC (2 D540s for > 62mb total), > smart IDE/CF(64MB installed, smart part if the BIOS is fully implemented > it it), > 512K MdriveH ramdisk, 256K romdisk, CompuPro MPX1 (intelligent IO slave), > Smart printer buffer(128K/8049), fast serial (8049 8251) for buffered > serial support. > Generally runs a very modified version of CP/M-80 with multitasking and > mountable > drive support added. > > The other is a rock stock NS* 64K Horizon with either a SD or DD controller > ( I have both for it). Runs NSDOS, CP/M, UCSD Pascal. > > > Allison > > > >> Regards >> >> Rod Smallwood >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] >> On Behalf Of Andrew Lynch >> Sent: 06 November 2010 15:34 >> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >> Subject: S-100 board PCB planning >> >> Hi! Over the last couple of years several of us at N8VEM, >> S100computers.com, and others have been building S-100 boards. This >> > summer > >> we did a major update/respin cycle to the boards and made manufactured >> > PCBs > >> for many builders. For a while it seemed to satisfy the demand for DIY >> hobbyist S-100 PCBs but now the interest is starting to pick up again so I >> thought I would send an update to any S-100 enthusiasts on CCTALK. >> >> I will reorder/respin S-100 PCBs once the interest level gets to an >> economically viable level for a group purchase. Normally that is around >> 25-30 PCBs I know builders want which makes a cost at $20 plus shipping >> > per > >> PCB affordable for most builders. This compromise balance seems to work >> well and we've produced several S-100 boards this way. Here are the >> > boards > >> we've made so far: >> >> S-100 regular prototyping board (some remaining) >> >> S-100 buffered prototyping board (some remaining) >> >> S-100 backplane (8 slot plus utility circuitry - one left) >> >> S-100 IDE (hard drive, CD-ROM, CF, ATAPI, etc) >> >> S-100 parallel ASCII keyboard (just received a new batch of respin >> PCBs) >> >> S-100 4MB SRAM (Flash, etc) >> >> S-100 system monitor (similar to Jade Bus Probe but two PCB set - >> one or two remain) >> >> S-100 bus extender (with logic probe, indicator LEDs, etc) >> >> S-100 EPROM (SRAM, EEPROM, Flash, etc) >> >> S-100 IO (dual serial, USB, voice synthesis, etc) >> >> S-100 PIC/RTC >> >> All of these have gone through at least one or two internal prototype >> iterations plus one or more manufactured PCB orders. Since we respin the >> boards based on builder feedback obviously the later generations of boards >> tend to be "cleaner" than the earlier ones. This is an all volunteer >> amateur project so the builders *are* the developers, QA, testers, etc in >> addition to using the boards. >> >> There are four boards in active development and/or approaching >> > manufactured > >> PCB stage >> >> S-100 Z80 CPU (just ordered first batch of manufactured PCBs after >> two rounds of prototype build and test) >> >> S-100 Console IO (dual Propeller VGA, PS/2 keyboard, microSD, >> Ethernet, etc - first iteration prototype boards ordered) >> >> S-100 ZFDC intelligent floppy drive controller (Z80/WD2793 second >> iteration prototype board imminent) >> >> S-100 68K CPU (first iteration prototype boards ordered) >> >> Please note the above boards no longer *planned* they are actual boards in >> some form or another. There are several more in the planning stages but I >> won't waste your time with those since those plans change often. All of >> > the > >> schematics, PCB layouts, bill of materials, etc are available on either >> > the > >> N8VEM wiki or S100Computers.com website including build instructions for >> > the > >> most part. >> >> These are noncommercial Do It Yourself (DIY) hobbyist PCBs. They are not >> perfect nor is this a business. John's apt description from comp.os.cpm >> captures it well "Andrew Lynch (at N8VEM) see >> (http://n8vem-sbc.pbworks.com/) and I, are in the process of having a few >> commercial quality S-100 cards made for ourselves. If others are >> > interested > >> in obtaining a bare card, let Andrew or I know. Please note these would be >> bare cards, a schematic and that's it. Building the board and implementing >> CPM etc., you are on your own. This is not a project for first timers." >> >> In other words, if you want to play along that's great but this is purely >> "CAVEAT EMPTOR" and there are no assurances, guarantees, or warrantees on >> any aspect of the boards. >> >> Please this is offered as an information post to interested >> > vintage/classic > >> computer hobbyists not an invitation for flames and pointless criticisms. >> Please be courteous and keep those to yourself. As always, questions, >> comments and *constructive* criticism welcome. >> >> Thanks and have a nice day! >> >> Andrew Lynch >> >> >> >> > > From tshoppa at wmata.com Tue Nov 9 07:41:57 2010 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim) Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2010 08:41:57 -0500 Subject: Gandalf Message-ID: De writes: >> I am looking for info on a Gandalf LDS120 modem, specifically the >> serial port pinout. > In the division of irrelevant to the original question, I thought these > things were line drivers, not modems. I always thought they got lumped into "short haul 4-wire modems". They do have "DCD" lights on the front. I seem to recall that it's just a light and doesn't actually assert any RS-232 pins. But they could just be differential line drivers probably with isolation. 20+ years ago I'm sure I looked inside to see what's in there but I can't recall. I always thought they did some simplistic and almost certainly not Bell-standard FSK or PSK but that was just my impression, no actual evidence to back that up. Did the 4-wire screws on the back have labels of "+" and "-"? That would be a point in favor of them being line drivers and not modems (although some simple modems were in fact phase-sensitive). We used them between serial concentrators on different floors or between serial concentrators between nearby buildings. I note that there's no Gandalf directory at bitsavers. Gandalf certainly has a unique heritage not really being a "computer" company in the usual sense but for so many of us it was the gateway from terminal to the computer or between computers. I get the impression they were far more common at large academic institutions than at any commercial site. Tim. From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Nov 9 07:55:01 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2010 05:55:01 -0800 (PST) Subject: CPU vs PPU was Re: Virtual memory In-Reply-To: <275ED284-11E4-4B6D-8BAE-70009B09843E@microspot.co.uk> from Roger Holmes at "Nov 9, 10 09:15:45 am" Message-ID: <201011091355.oA9Dt1DZ013908@floodgap.com> > Somehow now (when most peripherals have embedded processors which could be > called PPUs) we seem to have stopped using the term. I think the term disappeared with the microcomputer age. Intelligent peripherals like, say, the Commodore 1541 were always considered to have CPUs, not PPUs (especially since the CPU in that particular disk drive was almost exactly the same as the one in the host). To NES programmers, PPU means something else entirely ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Picture_Processing_Unit ). -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- My opinions may have changed, but not the fact that I'm still right. ------- From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Nov 9 08:19:01 2010 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Tue, 09 Nov 2010 08:19:01 -0600 Subject: Terak Boot behavior? In-Reply-To: <4CD8C074.7000701@mail.msu.edu> References: <4CD8C074.7000701@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <201011091424.oA9EO5tO036150@billY.EZWIND.NET> At 09:31 PM 11/8/2010, Josh Dersch wrote: > The drive seeks back to track 0, pauses for 1-2 seconds and then and seems to briefly access the disk for another second. Then, nothing. It'll act like that if your disk isn't a boot disk, as I recall. - John From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Nov 9 09:26:51 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 09 Nov 2010 10:26:51 -0500 Subject: Help with testing Sun CP1500-440 In-Reply-To: References: <4CD86DBC.5080702@neurotica.com> <4CD86FCB.60306@gmail.com> <4CD87217.6060006@neurotica.com> <4CD8756E.6030108@gmail.com> <4CD87F36.9000903@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4CD9683B.1040506@neurotica.com> On 11/8/10 6:10 PM, auringer tds.net wrote: >> If you end up doing that, I have a few more of those boards. Though for >> clustering applications, while the UltraSPARC-II has excellent integer >> performance, it is a bit weak in floating point. > > Yes, I've heard that before... Oh yes, I think you said that the other > day. :) I wasn't thinking that it would be a great number cruncher, > just that it would be fast enough to make it fun, unlike the stack of > Sparcstation 1s I had thought about trying at one time. :O They'd be a whole lot faster than the SPARCstation 1s of course, but yes. :) > P.S. Dave, I will give some thought to your offer of the T1-105 and > get back to you. Ok. Be aware that I'm about to do another road trip (a very not-fun one this time unfortunately) and will be away for a few days starting tomorrow. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cclist at sydex.com Tue Nov 9 10:39:16 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 09 Nov 2010 08:39:16 -0800 Subject: CDC 6000/7000 operation, was: Virtual memory In-Reply-To: <275ED284-11E4-4B6D-8BAE-70009B09843E@microspot.co.uk> References: , <275ED284-11E4-4B6D-8BAE-70009B09843E@microspot.co.uk> Message-ID: <4CD908B4.32181.631DD7@cclist.sydex.com> On 9 Nov 2010 at 9:15, Roger Holmes wrote: > In the 50s the main processor was called the CPU (Central Processing > Unit) to differentiate it from the various PPUs, (Peripheral > Processing Units). The first machine I programmed, the IBM 7094 had a > CPU and two PPUs, one to read cards and write the images to tape > transports, which would then be switched over to the CPU to read, > compile and execute the job and write the results back to another tape > transport which then got switched to the other PPU which then > transferred the tape image to a line printer. Here's where we run smack-dab into Alice and Humpty-Dumpty again. Companies had their own vocabulary and words meant what they meant within the company and often, within a given division. In the CDC world, PPU (or PP) had a very specific meaning. Not SPOOL or ASP as in the IBM world, but a processor that was an inseparable part of a system. One of the projects I worked on used 1700 minicomputers as communications processors and had several 16-bit minicomputers identified as "controllers" to handle disk and tape drive interfacing. None of these was called a PPU. No, on 6000/Cyber 70/170 systems, a PPU was a 12-bit processor that had unrestricted access to CPU memory and had the only connections to the world outside of the CPU. The cycle time of the CPU was 100 nsec.; that of the 10 PPUs was 1 usec. Essentially, the set of PPUs was nothing more than 10 sets of registers and 4K of 12 bit words multiplexed 10 ways with a processor core with a 100 nsec cycle time. ("Hyperthreading" anyone?) In addition to being able to read and write the memory of the CPU, any PPU could "exchange jump" the CPU; that is, force a swap of the entire CPU register set with an area in memory. We'd call that an "interrupt" today, I guess. In the traditional scheme of things, only two PPUs had dedicated functions; PP0 served as the timekeeper and observed the state of the CPU (PPUs could also read the CPU P-counter) and was delegated the function of interrupting the CPU. PP1 (this could vary a bit) served to provide operator console display--the original display was an unbuffered vector-mode display and so needed to be continuously refreshed. The remainder of the PPs were consigned to be "pool" PPs and assigned to specific operating system tasks as needed. One PP could transfer data to another PP or to an external device via a "channel". Humpty strikes again--in CDC parlance, a channel was nothing more than a bidirectional latch with flags for empty or full and connected or disconnected. Unlike the IBM interpretation, a CDC channel has no intelligence at all--it's just a conduit. Up until about 1975 or so, almost no part of the operating system resided in the CPU. OS activity was the province of the PPs--and users did not have the ability to write their own PP programs. One interesting aspect of this arrangement is that a program could initiate I/O activity on a device using a circular-buffer interface with a PPU and, as long as data could be accepted or supplied, continue on that same device chasing pointers with the PP without any other intervening OS interruptions, save for the scheduler intervening at the end of a time slice. When the 7600 came along, the PPs were removed from the time- multiplexed arrangement and made to run asynchronously, but they were also barred from freely accessing CPU memory or even reading the CPU P-counter. Instead, each was hardware-assigned a pair of buffers (one input, the other output) in memory and the CPU given an instruction to set an I/O request flag. The OS thus had to be moved into the CPU and the PPs relegated to I/O exclusively. --Chuck From pat at computer-refuge.org Tue Nov 9 11:53:58 2010 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2010 12:53:58 -0500 Subject: exaggerated claims regarding gold in Pentium Pro (was Re: CPU scrap) In-Reply-To: <4CD4360E.6010500@brouhaha.com> References: <23A678B00752413BBB4ACB90316A22A8@dell8300> <201011050910.44745.pat@computer-refuge.org> <4CD4360E.6010500@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <201011091253.58208.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Friday 05 November 2010, Eric Smith wrote: > Patrick Finnegan wrote: > > A few years ago, a scrapper would give me just over $6 per PPro in > > qty 1, so either he was an idiot (less likely), or there's > > something to this. > > I can think of a few other possible reasons that have nothing to do > with gold content. The most obvious is simply that the resale value > of a Pentium Pro was well over $6. It's highly unlikely he was selling them for other than scrap. I'd be surprised if you can sell a PPro with cracked ceramic as anything other than scrap. Also, in May of 2008 I think it would have been hard to find a buyer looking to pay more than $6/ea for random/untested Pentium Pro CPUs, unless they were getting turned into scrap. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From legalize at xmission.com Tue Nov 9 12:18:31 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 09 Nov 2010 11:18:31 -0700 Subject: CDC 6000/7000 operation, was: Virtual memory In-Reply-To: <4CD908B4.32181.631DD7@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <275ED284-11E4-4B6D-8BAE-70009B09843E@microspot.co.uk> <4CD908B4.32181.631DD7@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: In article <4CD908B4.32181.631DD7 at cclist.sydex.com>, "Chuck Guzis" writes: > In the traditional scheme of things, only two PPUs had dedicated > functions; PP0 served as the timekeeper and observed the state of the > CPU (PPUs could also read the CPU P-counter) and was delegated the > function of interrupting the CPU. PP1 (this could vary a bit) served > to provide operator console display--the original display was an > unbuffered vector-mode display and so needed to be continuously > refreshed. I have one of these displays, a CC545: I need to figure out how to cobble together a PPU and suitable driver circuitry in order to fake out the back end of the machine. Ideally I'd like to interface this to the CDC emulators out there. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From jdr_use at bluewin.ch Tue Nov 9 12:56:20 2010 From: jdr_use at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen) Date: Tue, 09 Nov 2010 19:56:20 +0100 Subject: Core memory repairs, part 2. Message-ID: <4CD99954.70509@bluewin.ch> I spend some more time on the severely defective 8/L core stack I have. First I repeated the diode checks and wielded out all diodes that were more than 40mV away from the .55 V forward voltage that seems to be standard. Total number of defective diodes : 29 . Still cannot figure out why so many diodes were dead/shorted. Also repeated the inhibit / sense wire checks : 1 sense wire open. 1 sense wire high ohmic. ( 200 ohms ) 1 inhibit wire high ohmic ( 250 ohms ) Normal value for sense / inhibit wires would be around 15 ohms. I then opened the stack by cutting through 128 X/Y wires and removing 256 wire halves... There were several old repairs, covered with some ceramic substance, luckily all on the edges of the core mats. The high ohmic wires were due to this old repairs, after scrubbing off the ceramic stuff and resoldering the connection the high ohmic sense wire was restored to its nominal 15 ohm value. I still have to fix the other wires, ( i.e. 512 wire halves to remove...) and reassemble the stack, but it looks like core memory repairs are possible by amateurs. Material needed : - high powered, but comfortable, microscope. - SMD pencil soldering iron. The smallest I could find, and it was still too big. - the smallest solder I could find, still way too big. The other core stack, with the one single bit error, is still closed, but by swapping sense wire I was able to confirm that the error is indeed in the stack. Jos Dreesen From cclist at sydex.com Tue Nov 9 13:05:24 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 09 Nov 2010 11:05:24 -0800 Subject: CDC 6000/7000 operation, was: Virtual memory In-Reply-To: References: , <4CD908B4.32181.631DD7@cclist.sydex.com> , Message-ID: <4CD92AF4.3381.E8EA28@cclist.sydex.com> On 9 Nov 2010 at 11:18, Richard wrote: > I need to figure out how to cobble together a PPU and suitable driver > circuitry in order to fake out the back end of the machine. Ideally > I'd like to interface this to the CDC emulators out there. Wow, you've got your work cut out for you, starting with the 3-phase 400Hz power feed. Did you manage to get the controller for the display also? My own experience mostly was with the older two-tube display: http://bit.ly/aRrdrc I seem to recall that the CRTs for the things were very expensive and imported from Germany. The 7600 used a single-tube display and was driven by the MCU. I think the single-tube displays on other equipment came in on the Cyber 170 series. Earlier models were the two-tube variety--no difference in programming. The usual order of things was to have the system dayfile on the "A" display and the running job display (control point) on the "B" side. The console driver used auto-completion for commands, so typing "7RO" would cause autocompletion to "7,ROLLOUT". There were probably around 20 different displays that could be brought up, each assigned a letter. Lots of room to spread out listings, spill coffee, etc... --Chuck From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Tue Nov 9 13:16:57 2010 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2010 11:16:57 -0800 Subject: Core memory repairs, part 2. In-Reply-To: <4CD99954.70509@bluewin.ch> References: <4CD99954.70509@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: On 2010 Nov 9, at 10:56 AM, Jos Dreesen wrote: > I spend some more time on the severely defective 8/L core stack I have. > > First I repeated the diode checks and wielded out all diodes that were > more than 40mV away from the .55 V forward voltage that seems to be > standard. Total number of defective diodes : 29 . Still cannot figure > out why so many diodes were dead/shorted. > > Also repeated the inhibit / sense wire checks : > > 1 sense wire open. > 1 sense wire high ohmic. ( 200 ohms ) > 1 inhibit wire high ohmic ( 250 ohms ) > > Normal value for sense / inhibit wires would be around 15 ohms. > I then opened the stack by cutting through 128 X/Y wires and removing > 256 wire halves... > > There were several old repairs, covered with some ceramic substance, > luckily all on the edges of the core mats. > The high ohmic wires were due to this old repairs, after scrubbing off > the ceramic stuff and resoldering the connection the high ohmic sense > wire was restored to its nominal 15 ohm value. > > I still have to fix the other wires, ( i.e. 512 wire halves to > remove...) and reassemble the stack, but it looks like core memory > repairs are possible by amateurs. > > Material needed : > > - high powered, but comfortable, microscope. > - SMD pencil soldering iron. The smallest I could find, and it was > still too big. > - the smallest solder I could find, still way too big. > > The other core stack, with the one single bit error, is still closed, > but by swapping sense wire I was able to confirm that the error is > indeed in the stack. > This is great! If you can take pictures along the way it would be interesting to see. From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Nov 9 13:30:42 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2010 14:30:42 -0500 Subject: CDC 6000/7000 operation, was: Virtual memory In-Reply-To: <4CD92AF4.3381.E8EA28@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4CD908B4.32181.631DD7@cclist.sydex.com> <4CD92AF4.3381.E8EA28@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > Wow, you've got your work cut out for you, starting with the 3-phase > 400Hz power feed. A CC545A is not too much of a power sucker, so a military 400 Hz converter would likely do the trick. >?Did you manage to get the controller for the > display also? CC545As do not need controllers, if connected to the appropriate channel on the Cyber. Maybe the earlier Cyber consoles did, but not the late type that Richard has. The early single tube Cyber consoles, between the dual tube type of the 6600 era and the CC545A, were crammed with 3000 series logic boards, rather than the few larger boards of later types. The last, for the Cyber 990, was single tube and color, but I do not know if it was vector. > I seem to recall that the CRTs for the things were very expensive and > imported from Germany. It is certainly an oddball. 21M44LP4, I think. I am in need of one. -- Will From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Tue Nov 9 13:35:55 2010 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2010 11:35:55 -0800 Subject: Virtual memory In-Reply-To: <4CD920C9.2030803@softjar.se> References: <4CD920C9.2030803@softjar.se> Message-ID: On 2010 Nov 9, at 2:22 AM, Johnny Billquist wrote: >> >> - 1. User addresses map directly to physical addresses. >> User address 0 is physical address 0. The user address space is >> obviously limited to 1MB or less of memory and the user will be aware >> of such >> if an attempt to address beyond that is made. > > Yes. And if you have several processes, they are all aware of each > others memory space, and care must be taken that they do not wander > outside their own confinements and clobber things in the system > (including the OS). Programs must be written to be memory aware, and > either PIC, or else linked to run at a specific address, since there > is no virtual memory. > >> - 2. We add an MMU to map addresses. >> Multiple user address spaces may exist and can be mapped to >> different >> areas in physical memory. User address 0 may or may not ref >> physical address 0. >> A user is still aware of a limited address space dictated by the >> 1MB of >> physical memory. The total of the user address spaces cannot >> exceed 1MB. > > Indeed. And it can be an arbitrary lower limit than 1 MB as well. And > at this point, programs can be written to not be memory aware. All > programs can be written without consideration to what addresses they > use. All can be linked to start at the same address, and run in > parallel. They are not aware of, nor do they see other programs memory > space. They can be PIC, or position dependent. They can clobber all > their memory, and the system itself is not affected. > >> - 3. We add swapping-to-disk. >> The system as a whole is no longer limited to 1MB of memory, >> there may be >> multiple user address spaces totalling more than 1MB of memory. >> Each user >> however, is still limited to a max of 1MB of address space, i.e. >> each user >> is still aware of the limited physical memory. > > Right. Adding swap does nothing more than grow the capacity of the > system total. For a single process, it is invisible. > >> - 4. We add address-faulting, demand-paging - whatever one wants >> to call it. >> The user address space is no longer limited by physical memory. >> The user can >> hit any address in their 32-bit space and (magically) find a >> valid memory >> location there. More physical memory can be added (or removed) >> 'underneath' >> the user(s) without their awareness. > > Except, or course, the OS can still limit you to use less than 1 MB. > Adding paging does nothing for the individual program as such. It is > totally invisible. You might argue that it gives you the possibility > to use more memory than physically available, and that is true, but > that is at the discretion of the OS. To get more memory, you will need > to call the OS to request more memory, and the OS can allow or deny > this request. Same as in #2 above. If we are discussing on the basis that the OS (which I will take to mean "system") can limit you to whatever it feels like, then it can limit you to no address-mapping at all, no virtual addresses, no virtual memory, and there is nothing to discuss. >> By the nomenclature I grew up with or suffer under, the term "virtual >> memory" only applies in scenario 4, although "virtual addresses" could >> be said to have been introduced in scenario 2. > > The difference between 2 and 4 is only that the OS *can* allow you to > use more memory in scenario 4, not that it necessarily will allow it. What the system *can* allow you to do, what abilities it has the *potential* to provide, are exactly what distinguishes the scenarios and systems. That the system *can* allow you to use more memory in scenario 4 - transparently access more memory in a single linear address space than there is physical RAM - is exactly the point, and what distinguishes it from the other scenarios. >> Or, scenario 4 was my understanding of the *commonly-agreed-upon >> application* of the phrase "virtual memory", although I would not >> argue >> that in a very general sense it may be applied to scenario 2 or 3. > > The difference between 2, 3 and 4 is actually extremely vague. The > only actual difference is that the OS *can* allow you to use more > memory. But let's say that the OS will not. Does that suddenly mean > that you don't have virtual memory, even though it is indeed using > page demand loading and all that fancy stuff? The differences between scenarios 2 & 3 & 4 are not vague, there are fundamental differences between them - whatever terms one chooses to apply to denote them. Introducing arbitrary minimum limits imposed at the whim of the OS is a straw argument. > And this also totally ignores the scenario that exists under the > PDP-11, and which started this thread. What if you have more physical > memory than can be addressed by virtual memory? > That's a whole different ballgame, and is not covered by any of your > scenarios... IIRC it began with the contributions or abilities of the VAX. I think somebody may have suggested that the PDP-11 could do all those things. The discussion then threaded off into the use or meaning of the phrase "virtual memory". It seems there are multiple definitions in use, some may be more common than others, none are "correct" or "incorrect". The ad-absurdum extension of this debate is that these are all universal machines, they are all capable of emulating the others, all capable of whatever the others are, there is nothing to distinguish them, (and they are all capable of nothing if the OS wishes to limit one to such). > All in good spirit. :-) OK. From RichA at vulcan.com Tue Nov 9 14:02:12 2010 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2010 12:02:12 -0800 Subject: CDC 6000/7000 operation, was: Virtual memory In-Reply-To: <4CD908B4.32181.631DD7@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <275ED284-11E4-4B6D-8BAE-70009B09843E@microspot.co.uk> <4CD908B4.32181.631DD7@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: From: Chuck Guzis Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 2010 8:39 AM > Up until about 1975 or so, almost no part of the operating system > resided in the CPU. OS activity was the province of the PPs--and > users did not have the ability to write their own PP programs. This does not accord with my recollection of the 6600 at all. I started college at the University of Texas in September, 1969, and was immediately exposed to the CDC 6600: Since I had learned FORTRAN IV the preceding spring, the work-study folks sent me over to the Comp Center to interview for a job. I'm afraid my IBM bigotry kept me from getting the position. However, I met CS grad students through my job at the CAI Lab (IBM 1800 and 360 based) who were working on the 6600. One of them was a whiz at writing PPU code. I signed up for a COMPASS class in the fall of 1970; besides learning about the CPU, there were sections of the syllabus on PPU programming. Since this was an undergraduate intro-level class, I can't imagine that they were teaching anything privileged and/or dangerous. But it's 40 years ago, so I may very well have killed off those neura. Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.PDPplanet.org/ http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From uban at ubanproductions.com Tue Nov 9 14:22:44 2010 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Tue, 09 Nov 2010 14:22:44 -0600 Subject: CDC 6000/7000 operation, was: Virtual memory In-Reply-To: <4CD92AF4.3381.E8EA28@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4CD908B4.32181.631DD7@cclist.sydex.com> , <4CD92AF4.3381.E8EA28@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4CD9AD94.7050604@ubanproductions.com> The 6000s used something like this, for which I have some of the parts: http://ubanproductions.com/ConsoleRescue/index.html --tom On 11/9/10 1:05 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 9 Nov 2010 at 11:18, Richard wrote: > >> I need to figure out how to cobble together a PPU and suitable driver >> circuitry in order to fake out the back end of the machine. Ideally >> I'd like to interface this to the CDC emulators out there. > > Wow, you've got your work cut out for you, starting with the 3-phase > 400Hz power feed. Did you manage to get the controller for the > display also? > > My own experience mostly was with the older two-tube display: > > http://bit.ly/aRrdrc > > I seem to recall that the CRTs for the things were very expensive and > imported from Germany. > > The 7600 used a single-tube display and was driven by the MCU. I > think the single-tube displays on other equipment came in on the > Cyber 170 series. Earlier models were the two-tube variety--no > difference in programming. The usual order of things was to have the > system dayfile on the "A" display and the running job display > (control point) on the "B" side. > > The console driver used auto-completion for commands, so typing "7RO" > would cause autocompletion to "7,ROLLOUT". There were probably > around 20 different displays that could be brought up, each assigned > a letter. > > Lots of room to spread out listings, spill coffee, etc... > > --Chuck > > > > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Nov 9 14:14:16 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2010 20:14:16 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Amstrad 3in disc drive troubleshooting In-Reply-To: <4CD8026A.9062.1232459@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Nov 8, 10 02:00:10 pm Message-ID: > > What's silly about them (if picofuses are sensible)? > > Maybe they're common on European gear, but the Joyce was the first > time I'd ever seen one--they're just not what I'd consider to be a > "universal" part. They were (at the time of the PCW, probably still are) common in far-eastern TV and video equipment. I've certainly seenm them elsewhere. > > > I still think the nicest CP/M machine I've seen is the Epson QX10. > > That's a hard call--if we're talking about Z80-based CP/M machines I was restricting it to CP/M 80. For the 80-x86 and 68K there are other, more interesting OSes. Actually, there are more interesting Z80- SOes too (LS-DOS 6.x on te TRS-80 Model 4 comes high up my list...) but CP.M has a heck of a lot of software written for it. > (not x86 or 68K), some of the other late Japanese machines were > pretty impressive. The QX10 was interesting to me mostly in its non- I did say 'nicest .. that I've seen' :-). The QX10 seems to have some pretty nice hardware. Mostly stnadard chips too (alas mine has the later video board with the gate array chip :-() and those lovelly voice coil floppy drives. I am not familiar with many other Japanese CP/M machines. What was nice about them? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Nov 9 14:16:46 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2010 20:16:46 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Help with testing Sun CP1500-440 In-Reply-To: <4CD87923.5000006@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Nov 8, 10 05:26:43 pm Message-ID: > > I was going with what Sun said. > > *snicker* One thing I'm fond of saying is "The people who know the > least about Sun computers are Sun employees". Without wishing to start a flamewar, it is my experience that in many cases a company's 'customer support' personnel know considerably less aboput the comptuer than a clueful customer does. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Nov 9 14:02:41 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2010 20:02:41 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Crucifixion (was Re: Fragility in the floppy world (was Re: TRS-80 In-Reply-To: from "Ian King" at Nov 8, 10 12:47:39 pm Message-ID: > > > A bit like testing the I/O instruction that a torpedo's processor > > issues =3D > > > to explode its charge, and the code it executes afterwards. The Q.A. > > =3D > >=20 > > The only sane things to put there are surely a CPU halt or BR .-2 or > > similar. > >=20 > > How about HCF? -- Ian=20 I would have thought that I/O instruction would perrform that function. Of course what it halts is another matter. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Nov 9 14:08:12 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2010 20:08:12 +0000 (GMT) Subject: PDP-11/34A bring up In-Reply-To: from "Ethan Dicks" at Nov 8, 10 04:15:59 pm Message-ID: > > On 11/8/10, Chris Elmquist wrote: > > Seems silly but it might be easier to scavenge the connector off the back > > of a dead RL01 or RL02 and make it into the transition than to find the > > actual transition! > > It's the same part, AFAIK. What I have on one rack is a special DEC > mounting bracket that can accept two of the round-cable-to-flat-cable > transitions - it's a bit larger than a pack of playing cards and > easily affixes to an H960. Mine has one transition connector, but > there is room to mount a second one. Having worked on a few RL01/RL02 > drives, ISTR it's the same part that's bolted to the back of the > drives. It is. Some eyarts ago I needed a number of these connectors and a friendly DEC reseller sold me the rear panel/PSUs from some dead RL drives. Worked with not problems. If you use that conenctor, you need a 40 pin BERG-to-BERG cable (whcih you can trivially make) to link it to the controller. AfAIK it'll work with an RL controller, nop matter what DEC normally supplied. > All drives: round cable with ZIF on each end to go from drive to > drive, plus ZIF-connector terminator that is externally identical to, > but not electrically identical to RK06/RK07 terminator. The cables are differnet betwene the RLs and the RK06/07 (the latter has all pins bet one (termintor power) connected, the former has rather fewer wired), but AFAIK the terminator is the same (it terminates all signal pins. I think at least one RL controller printset shows the exploded view of the terminators with 'First used on Option/Model : RK06' specified. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Nov 9 14:49:03 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2010 20:49:03 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Gandalf In-Reply-To: from "Shoppa, Tim" at Nov 9, 10 08:41:57 am Message-ID: > > De writes: > >> I am looking for info on a Gandalf LDS120 modem, specifically the > >> serial port pinout. > > > In the division of irrelevant to the original question, I thought these > > things were line drivers, not modems. > > I always thought they got lumped into "short haul 4-wire modems". It's difficult... The do 'modulate' and 'demodulate' so I guess they are modems. But they are certainly not normal dial-up modems. > > They do have "DCD" lights on the front. I seem to recall that it's just > a light and doesn't actually assert any RS-232 pins. But they could just > be differential line drivers probably with isolation. I've found somenotes I made on it over 20 years ago. Even the 'scope photos of the line signals. Perhaps this will help... To get inside, unplug it from the mains (!), then unscrew the 4 screws in the rubber feet. The cover then slides off backwards. The PCB is clearly visible (component-sdie up, there are transformers mounted under it. The RS232 connector pins are : 1 Prot Gnd 2 TxD 3 RxD 4 RTS 5 CTS 6 DSR 7 Sig Gnd 8 DCD 9 Rx Current Loop +ve 10 Rx Current Loop -ve There is AFAIK no trasnmit current loop interface built-in. There are some jumper links on the PCB. : Cons/Ctl : Transmitter enable (Cons : oalways active, Ctl - controlled by RTS input) 2W/4W : 2 wire/4 wire line select. In 2W position, disable DCD on RTS Term : Temrinate Rx Line with 150R Line S/L : Line length select (set gain of Rx ampliifer Tune : Adjust threshold of DCD comparator Phase A/B (2 sets, must be set the same way) : swap inputs of RX flip-flop to correct for reversed line phase. > > 20+ years ago I'm sure I looked inside to see what's in there but I It's all standard and common parts -- 324 Op-maps 339 comparators, etc. > can't recall. I always thought they did some simplistic and almost certainl= > y > not Bell-standard FSK or PSK but > that was just my impression, no actual evidence to back that up. They're not FSK or anything similar. What they do is send a pulse onto the line on each transition of TxD (a +ve going pulse for one transistion direction, a -ve going pulse for the other) and if there are no transitions on the line for about 1ms, then send another pulse of the same polarity. The Rx circuit detects the line pulses and drives an SR latch. They're good to about 9600 buard. > > Did the 4-wire screws on the back have labels of "+" and "-"? Yes. > That would be a point in favor of them being line drivers and not modems > (although some simple modems were in fact phase-sensitive). This unit is certianly pahse-sensitive. Swap the line wires round and you'll get inverted data (including start/stop bits) out. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Nov 9 14:50:24 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2010 20:50:24 +0000 (GMT) Subject: CPU vs PPU was Re: Virtual memory In-Reply-To: <201011091355.oA9Dt1DZ013908@floodgap.com> from "Cameron Kaiser" at Nov 9, 10 05:55:01 am Message-ID: > > > Somehow now (when most peripherals have embedded processors which could be > > called PPUs) we seem to have stopped using the term. > > I think the term disappeared with the microcomputer age. Intelligent IIRC the 2 processors in an HP9845 (which I consider to be a micro) are the PPU (Peripheral Processor Unit) and LPU (Language Processor Unit). -tony From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Nov 9 15:28:53 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 09 Nov 2010 16:28:53 -0500 Subject: Help with testing Sun CP1500-440 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CD9BD15.2080302@neurotica.com> On 11/9/10 3:16 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >>> I was going with what Sun said. >> >> *snicker* One thing I'm fond of saying is "The people who know the >> least about Sun computers are Sun employees". > > Without wishing to start a flamewar, it is my experience that in many > cases a company's 'customer support' personnel know considerably less > aboput the comptuer than a clueful customer does. This was a *design engineer*, not a customer service drone. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Tue Nov 9 16:07:08 2010 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2010 14:07:08 -0800 Subject: Gandalf In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9a2fafec9cd1d4b00384a2b910a1a7e1@cs.ubc.ca> On 2010 Nov 9, at 5:41 AM, Shoppa, Tim wrote: > De writes: >>> I am looking for info on a Gandalf LDS120 modem, specifically the >>> serial port pinout. > >> In the division of irrelevant to the original question, I thought >> these >> things were line drivers, not modems. > > I always thought they got lumped into "short haul 4-wire modems". Yet Another Terminology Debate. In common parlance, I think "modem" has frequently been used where "line driver" would be more technically correct. > They do have "DCD" lights on the front. I seem to recall that it's just > a light and doesn't actually assert any RS-232 pins. But they could > just > be differential line drivers probably with isolation. > > 20+ years ago I'm sure I looked inside to see what's in there but I > can't recall. I always thought they did some simplistic and almost > certainly > not Bell-standard FSK or PSK but > that was just my impression, no actual evidence to back that up. > > Did the 4-wire screws on the back have labels of "+" and "-"? > That would be a point in favor of them being line drivers and not > modems > (although some simple modems were in fact phase-sensitive). > > We used them between serial concentrators on different floors or > between serial concentrators between nearby buildings. > > I note that there's no Gandalf directory at bitsavers. Gandalf > certainly has a unique heritage not really being a "computer" > company in the usual sense but for so many of us it was the > gateway from terminal to the computer or between computers. I > get the impression they were far more common at large academic > institutions than at any commercial site. At ubc, in the mainframe/MTS/centralised-computing-service days of the 70s/80s, the terminals spread around the campus had ubiquitous little white plastic utility boxes with a couple of leds on the front sitting by the terminal. They were RS-232<->4-wire line-drivers, built in-house by the computing centre. I think they started building them out of necessity before manufacturers entered the market in a big way. I extracted one from a junk pile some years ago for nostalgia/history's sake. TMR, Gandalf and Develcon were the major competitors for the terminal-switch / line-driver market in the late-70's/80's. From cclist at sydex.com Tue Nov 9 16:15:27 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 09 Nov 2010 14:15:27 -0800 Subject: CDC 6000/7000 operation, was: Virtual memory In-Reply-To: References: , <4CD908B4.32181.631DD7@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4CD9577F.22708.196E911@cclist.sydex.com> On 9 Nov 2010 at 12:02, Rich Alderson wrote: > This does not accord with my recollection of the 6600 at all. Let me be a bit clearer. The assembler supported PPU assemblies of course, but where to go if you were Joe User after your program was assembled? PP programs had to be incorporated into a deadstart tape or could be added via EDITLIB (the system library editor). But this was a privileged operation, requiring a "GO" from the operator, which, unless *you* were the operator, was not very likely. Many installations simply omitted EDITLIB from their deadstart tapes to avoid the possibility of error. If you wanted to goof around with system code, you deadstarted a tape that would allow you to do so. PPU development and debugging required a dedicated system. Once a PPU was hung (via program error or hardware malfunction), it was gone from the pool until the system was restarted and would usually leave the CPU program talking to it permanently hung as well. One typical development technique was to debug your PP code, successively hanging PPUs until you ran out of them or CM to hold your test program, then you pushed the button. In a university environment, I don't doubt that advanced students were given access to PP code writing in sort of an open lab. But that's hardly a production environment and such testing would be done outside of the time, say, that the University was doing their weekly payroll runs. One of the more irritating problems of working with PPU code was that there were few debug tools. If you had a scope you could read the contents of a PPU's P-counter. And there were deadstart dumps, but the picture they gave was incomplete. I wrote an emulator for debugging PPU code that loaded a small resident into a PP to be debugged, that passed data to a second PP over the same channel used for the console display which then displayed and executed the code. The advantage being that you could see everything and set breakpoints. The slowdown was dramatic--the 512 line printer driver would print about 2 lines per minute... --Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Nov 9 16:15:53 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2010 14:15:53 -0800 (PST) Subject: PPU (was: Virtual memory In-Reply-To: <4CD908B4.32181.631DD7@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <275ED284-11E4-4B6D-8BAE-70009B09843E@microspot.co.uk> <4CD908B4.32181.631DD7@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20101109140931.K26885@shell.lmi.net> > In the 50s the main processor was called the CPU (Central Processing > Unit) to differentiate it from the various PPUs, (Peripheral > Processing Units). A helluva lot of beginning computer courses now, and back to mid 1960s introduced the term CPU, and sometimes ALU, but don't/didn't mention PPUs. > The first machine I programmed, the IBM 7094 had a > CPU and two PPUs, one to read cards and write the images to tape > transports, which would then be switched over to the CPU to read, > compile and execute the job and write the results back to another tape > transport which then got switched to the other PPU which then > transferred the tape image to a line printer. I did some FORTRAN on a 7094 at GSFC (SSDC Bldg 26) 40 years ago. They were using a 360/30 to do I/O for the 7094! Would that make that 360 a PPU :-? -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cclist at sydex.com Tue Nov 9 16:18:03 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 09 Nov 2010 14:18:03 -0800 Subject: CDC 6000/7000 operation, was: Virtual memory In-Reply-To: References: , <4CD92AF4.3381.E8EA28@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4CD9581B.26124.199489C@cclist.sydex.com> On 9 Nov 2010 at 14:30, William Donzelli wrote: > CC545As do not need controllers, if connected to the appropriate > channel on the Cyber. Maybe the earlier Cyber consoles did, but not > the late type that Richard has. It wasn't apparent from the material Richard pointed to--and as I mentioned, this was after my time. --Chuck From legalize at xmission.com Tue Nov 9 16:27:17 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 09 Nov 2010 15:27:17 -0700 Subject: CDC 6000/7000 operation, was: Virtual memory In-Reply-To: <4CD92AF4.3381.E8EA28@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4CD908B4.32181.631DD7@cclist.sydex.com> , <4CD92AF4.3381.E8EA28@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: In article <4CD92AF4.3381.E8EA28 at cclist.sydex.com>, "Chuck Guzis" writes: > On 9 Nov 2010 at 11:18, Richard wrote: > > > I need to figure out how to cobble together a PPU and suitable driver > > circuitry in order to fake out the back end of the machine. Ideally > > I'd like to interface this to the CDC emulators out there. > > Wow, you've got your work cut out for you, starting with the 3-phase > 400Hz power feed. Did you manage to get the controller for the > display also? I just have the console desk as pictured in those photos (not of my hardware, but mine looks comparable). For dealing with the exotic power requirements, I was hoping that simply replacing the power supply with a more modern supply would be sufficient. However, I haven't investigated what the CC545 requires for internal voltage and current. > My own experience mostly was with the older two-tube display: My only experience with CDC machines was through a PLATO terminal. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Nov 9 16:57:05 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2010 17:57:05 -0500 Subject: CDC 6000/7000 operation, was: Virtual memory In-Reply-To: References: <4CD908B4.32181.631DD7@cclist.sydex.com> <4CD92AF4.3381.E8EA28@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > For dealing with the exotic power requirements, I was hoping that > simply replacing the power supply with a more modern supply would be > sufficient. ?However, I haven't investigated what the CC545 requires > for internal voltage and current. You may want to investigate the power supplies in the CC545A. They may work at 60 Hz. While disassembling a Cyber 830 for shipment, I found that the transformers are 60/400 Hz rated, even though the Cyber is tagged as a 400 Hz machine. All the transformers do is isolate the AC line, which is rectified and sent at 280 Volts DC to the power supplies. Ancient CDC secret... -- Will From arcarlini at iee.org Tue Nov 9 17:07:42 2010 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2010 23:07:42 -0000 Subject: Dell Refurbished DEC (?!) In-Reply-To: <007401cb7f94$a88a3bb0$f99eb310$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <993EEE717BB24045977BE3AB51C02FEF@ANTONIOPC> cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org wrote: > Just noticed a number of items like this one > http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260689944 > 041 appear on eBay. These are strange listings. First I would > be very surprised if Dell refurbished vintage DEC stuff. > Second it is listed as refurbished but is also described as > being in New condition. Has anyone ever dealt with this > seller? They seem to have good feedback. I wouldn't buy at > that price in any case, but just curious I suppose. If you go to their website (just google) you can enter "DEC DISK" into the search bar and see a page more of such stuff. Some of it has part numbers that might just mean a DEC disk (there's something that could be an RZ28 for example) and some of it must be DELL parts (even if it does say DEC in the listing). Romford, Essex, in case anyone is near there. Antonio From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Nov 9 17:24:35 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2010 18:24:35 -0500 Subject: PDP-11/34A bring up In-Reply-To: <4CD884FD.80205@dunnington.plus.com> References: <20101101152950.GF2158@n0jcf.net> <20101104184634.GP15701@n0jcf.net> <20101108190234.GF16652@n0jcf.net> <4CD884FD.80205@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: On 11/8/10, Pete Turnbull wrote: > Ethan Dicks wrote: >> The arrangements I know of are... >> >> RL8A - round cable with a ZIF end for the drive and a 2x20 "Berg" end >> for the controller > > BC80J, described as 13 twisted pairs. That sounds somewhat familiar. >> RLV11/RLV12 - round cable with ZIF end for the drive and a 2x20 Berg >> end for the controller, but a different DEC P/N than the RL8A cable >> (not positive and if true, don't remember why it's different). > > BC80M/KG. It's listed as 13 twisted pairs shielded. That also sounds familiar. > Was the BC80J not shielded? Since I've worked with both cables (20+ years ago, mind you), ISTR the Berg end of the BC80M has a bit few cm of flat braided shielding sticking out, with a crimp-on end that can be bolted down to some nearby RF shield, a feature not present on the BC80J. Not sure about the nature of the cable material itself. Anyone, please feel free to correct me or add additional info, but it seems to me that these products were coming out near the time of the FCC RFI regs, so the BC80J might be pre-FCC and the BC80M either post-FCC or made in anticipation of preliminary standards. I remember a lot of FCC-driven product change around the early 1980s, but I can't be certain if this was that or if it was driven by internal DEC engineering improvements. Who knows? Perhaps it's a data-reliability improvement and not just a compliance issue? -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Nov 9 17:28:31 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2010 18:28:31 -0500 Subject: RL01/RL02 cables and terminators and unit plugs (was Re: PDP-11/34A bring up) Message-ID: On 11/9/10, Tony Duell wrote: > The cables are differnet betwene the RLs and the RK06/07 (the latter has > all pins bet one (termintor power) connected That rings a bell (term power). > the former has rather fewer > wired), but AFAIK the terminator is the same (it terminates all signal > pins. I think at least one RL controller printset shows the exploded view > of the terminators with 'First used on Option/Model : RK06' specified. OK. That's a good detail to remember when setting up drives of either kind. One handy bit of trivia if you happen to have spare Unit plugs from the high numbers of an RK06/RK07 set is that they work in an RL01/RL02 if you mentally mask off 2^2 (i.e., an RK06/RK06 plug labelled "4" is "0" on an RL01/RL02). It's the same sort of switch/bulb housing, but one less bit going back to the electronics. We didn't do it often, but sometimes we were short some of the numbers and we did have a couple of RK07s and a drawer of random unit plugs. -ethan From cclist at sydex.com Tue Nov 9 17:57:08 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 09 Nov 2010 15:57:08 -0800 Subject: CDC 6000/7000 operation, was: Virtual memory In-Reply-To: References: , <4CD92AF4.3381.E8EA28@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4CD96F54.4453.1F538DD@cclist.sydex.com> On 9 Nov 2010 at 14:30, William Donzelli wrote: > CC545As do not need controllers, if connected to the appropriate > channel on the Cyber. Maybe the earlier Cyber consoles did, but not > the late type that Richard has. The early single tube Cyber consoles, > between the dual tube type of the 6600 era and the CC545A, were > crammed with 3000 series logic boards, rather than the few larger > boards of later types. The last, for the Cyber 990, was single tube > and color, but I do not know if it was vector. Not according to the CC545 hardware manual (62952600) that Richard pointed to: "This manual documents the CONTROL DATA CYBER 170 Display Station, equipments CC545-C/D and the U.L.-listed equipments CC545E/F. The display station contains a 21-inch crt to display information received from a computer via a CYBER 170 Display Controller..." Nothng I see in the schematics for the thing shows anything about a display controller, just the basic display box. The display controller interprets the 12-bit data sequences and outputs either character or graphics (depending on the content), automatically keeping track of the drawing position. So the display controller is apparently separate from this thing, just as it is with the DD60. Where it's located, I don't know--the CYBER 170 was after I moved on within CDC. Looking at the schematics, the power supply takes both 60 Hz single- phase and 3-phase 208V 400Hz. The 60 Hz looks to be mostly for fan power. The 400Hz is a regular delta-wye transformer feed with several secondaries. --Chuck From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Nov 9 18:11:20 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2010 19:11:20 -0500 Subject: CDC 6000/7000 operation, was: Virtual memory In-Reply-To: <4CD96F54.4453.1F538DD@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4CD92AF4.3381.E8EA28@cclist.sydex.com> <4CD96F54.4453.1F538DD@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > So the display controller is apparently separate from this thing, > just as it is with the DD60. ?Where it's located, I don't know--the > CYBER 170 was after I moved on within CDC. In the later Cybers (180s), it is located in the mainframe. Maybe in the 170s there is a separate box. > Looking at the schematics, the power supply takes both 60 Hz single- > phase and 3-phase 208V 400Hz. ?The 60 Hz looks to be mostly for fan > power. ?The 400Hz is a regular delta-wye transformer feed with > several secondaries. But if those transformers are also rated for 60/400 Hz service, the console can be tricked. -- Will From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Nov 9 18:49:13 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2010 19:49:13 -0500 Subject: PPU (was: Virtual memory In-Reply-To: <20101109140931.K26885@shell.lmi.net> References: <275ED284-11E4-4B6D-8BAE-70009B09843E@microspot.co.uk> <4CD908B4.32181.631DD7@cclist.sydex.com> <20101109140931.K26885@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <593B8E62-C54E-4736-87C9-49E6105420C4@neurotica.com> On Nov 9, 2010, at 5:15 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >> I did some FORTRAN on a 7094 at GSFC (SSDC Bldg 26) 40 years ago. They > were using a 360/30 to do I/O for the 7094! Would that make that 360 a > PPU :-? Hey, I used to live down the street from there, right off of Greenbelt Road. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Tue Nov 9 19:47:03 2010 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2010 17:47:03 -0800 (PST) Subject: Ten P112 kits-a-cookin Message-ID: The leftover P112 parts have arrived in Portland. We're now working out what more needs to be bought to make kits. There will be ten kits. This means that if all the preorderers take one, the last one who put down for a preorder will not get a kit. I think I've already refunded your money anyhow. If one of the ten declines to take a kit, the will be offered to you (you know who you are). I'll keep the list informed on further developments. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From legalize at xmission.com Tue Nov 9 20:52:03 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 09 Nov 2010 19:52:03 -0700 Subject: CDC 6000/7000 operation, was: Virtual memory In-Reply-To: <4CD96F54.4453.1F538DD@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4CD92AF4.3381.E8EA28@cclist.sydex.com>, <4CD96F54.4453.1F538DD@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: In article <4CD96F54.4453.1F538DD at cclist.sydex.com>, "Chuck Guzis" writes: > "This manual documents the CONTROL DATA CYBER 170 Display Station, > equipments CC545-C/D and the U.L.-listed equipments CC545E/F. The > display station contains a 21-inch crt to display information > received from a computer via a CYBER 170 Display Controller..." Yes, from reading that documentation I had the impression that I would have to build the PPU in order to revive the hardware. Of course, that's after I figure out how to power the thing :-). -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Tue Nov 9 21:23:16 2010 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Tue, 09 Nov 2010 22:23:16 -0500 Subject: PPU In-Reply-To: <20101109140931.K26885@shell.lmi.net> References: , <275ED284-11E4-4B6D-8BAE-70009B09843E@microspot.co.uk> <4CD908B4.32181.631DD7@cclist.sydex.com> <20101109140931.K26885@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4CDA1024.9080001@compsys.to> >Fred Cisin wrote: >I did some FORTRAN on a 7094 at GSFC (SSDC Bldg 26) 40 years ago. They >were using a 360/30 to do I/O for the 7094! Would that make that 360 a >PPU :-? > I did a lot of FORTRAN on a 7094 at UTIAS (University of Toronto Institute of Aerospace Studies) about 45 years ago. While I can't be positive, I believe that all of the input and output was via tape. IIRC, a 1401 was used to read the standard IBM cards and copy the input to a tape drive on the 1401. The 7094 would then read the tape after it was transferred to a drive on the 7094 with output being to a second tape on the 7094. I think there were probably a number of additional tape drives on the 7094 along with a disk drive (washing machine size and probably only megabytes in size). Finally, the output tape was transferred back to a drive on the 1401 and the actual output became printed pages and punched cards. In my case, the punched cards were the executable program from a FORTRAN source program of about 2000 cards. The executable was about 300 to 400 cards which was a substantial reduction since all cards could be read at the same speed. If my memory of the system is correct, the Toronto installation had only tape drives and a small disk drive as units which allowed input and output. Does anyone else remember how the 7094 handled input and output? I would guess that if the 360 could handle the user interface, then the 360 might be a bit slow at computation. About 42 years ago, I worked for NORTEL on the CDC 3300. That system allowed many users to edit their input files (probably 10 to 20 users on terminals) and submit the files to the system to run their programs as batch jobs. IIRC, the batch queue was one user at a time since that was probably faster considering the limited capability of a system in 1968. For the users, all of their files could be held on the computer hard drives and no cards were required. Output was printed hard copy. Jerome Fine From cclist at sydex.com Tue Nov 9 23:33:53 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 09 Nov 2010 21:33:53 -0800 Subject: CDC 6000/7000 operation, was: Virtual memory In-Reply-To: References: , <4CD96F54.4453.1F538DD@cclist.sydex.com> , Message-ID: <4CD9BE41.20182.412F8@cclist.sydex.com> On 9 Nov 2010 at 19:52, Richard wrote: > Yes, from reading that documentation I had the impression that I would > have to build the PPU in order to revive the hardware. I think you misunderstand. The display controller is separate from the PPU and essentially interfaces the display to the 12-bit PPU channel. The PPU itself is nothing special--you could probably use any 16-bit microcontroller and have cycles to spare. --Chuck From legalize at xmission.com Wed Nov 10 00:53:57 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 09 Nov 2010 23:53:57 -0700 Subject: CDC 6000/7000 operation, was: Virtual memory In-Reply-To: <4CD9BE41.20182.412F8@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4CD96F54.4453.1F538DD@cclist.sydex.com> , <4CD9BE41.20182.412F8@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: In article <4CD9BE41.20182.412F8 at cclist.sydex.com>, "Chuck Guzis" writes: > On 9 Nov 2010 at 19:52, Richard wrote: > > > Yes, from reading that documentation I had the impression that I would > > have to build the PPU in order to revive the hardware. > > I think you misunderstand. The display controller is separate from > the PPU and essentially interfaces the display to the 12-bit PPU > channel. The PPU itself is nothing special--you could probably use > any 16-bit microcontroller and have cycles to spare. What you're calling the display controller I was lumping into the PPU. The project ends up being the same scope -- you need to drive the display and there's not much in the display itself. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From chrise at pobox.com Tue Nov 9 06:08:41 2010 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2010 06:08:41 -0600 Subject: Advin PILOT-142 programmer sw? In-Reply-To: References: <20101108190749.GG16652@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <20101109120841.GJ19168@n0jcf.net> On Monday (11/08/2010 at 06:33PM -0500), Steven Hirsch wrote: > > Advin are just useless.. I was contemplating the purchase of a smaller > Pilot programmer on eBay and dropped them a note to make sure that the > bipolar PROM family was covered. They told me to "..download the Captain > software and see what it offered on the menu". The implication being > that anything in the software was supported by the programmer. The > software featured all the PROM types I was interested in! Good news. > > Bad News: $150 + shipping later, I discovered that it produced only > errors when trying to read a PROM. Dropped another note to their "tech > support" folks and a different person responded with "..oh, that model > doesn't support PROMs" (!) In frustration, I asked why I had been told > to look at the software for answers. The response was along the lines of > "well after you looked at it you should have contacted us to see what > that hardware actually covers...". Which, of course, had been the > original question. > > They are now prominently on my crap-list of vendors to avoid. > > > Steve > > p.s. - Good luck with the software! :-) Thanks! I get the impression that the "tech support" people are just sales people who can't be bothered to find out the real, factual answers. The response I got was really just a sales pitch for a new $700 programmer... to which I replied, that if I were to get a new programmer, I would certainly get one that had Linux host software. I can understand them not wanting to burn large amounts of support time or effort on obsolete product... but I don't think we got anywhere close to that with my simple request for information. I've added them to my crap-list too. And Dan on this list has sent me some old DOS software to try so we'll see what we get. Thanks Dan. Chris -- Chris Elmquist From les at frii.com Tue Nov 9 14:35:01 2010 From: les at frii.com (les at frii.com) Date: Tue, 09 Nov 2010 13:35:01 -0700 Subject: Northstar Horizion In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5ac8219016560e0e2a636890b832fb3c@localhost> Rod, I am not sure where you are located, but I have a complete NS Horizon you can have. Les From mark.kahrs at gmail.com Tue Nov 9 15:25:33 2010 From: mark.kahrs at gmail.com (Mark Kahrs) Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2010 16:25:33 -0500 Subject: AT&T 610 terminal Message-ID: My 610 burned up a few months back and I have no interest in reviving it. Is it a collectible? Or should I dispose of it at the local Goodwill? From snhirsch at gmail.com Tue Nov 9 20:46:03 2010 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2010 21:46:03 -0500 (EST) Subject: Advin PILOT-142 programmer sw? In-Reply-To: <20101109120841.GJ19168@n0jcf.net> References: <20101108190749.GG16652@n0jcf.net> <20101109120841.GJ19168@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 9 Nov 2010, Chris Elmquist wrote: > On Monday (11/08/2010 at 06:33PM -0500), Steven Hirsch wrote: >> >> Advin are just useless.. I was contemplating the purchase of a smaller >> Pilot programmer on eBay and dropped them a note to make sure that the >> bipolar PROM family was covered. They told me to "..download the Captain >> software and see what it offered on the menu". The implication being >> that anything in the software was supported by the programmer. The >> software featured all the PROM types I was interested in! Good news. >> >> Bad News: $150 + shipping later, I discovered that it produced only >> errors when trying to read a PROM. Dropped another note to their "tech >> support" folks and a different person responded with "..oh, that model >> doesn't support PROMs" (!) In frustration, I asked why I had been told >> to look at the software for answers. The response was along the lines of >> "well after you looked at it you should have contacted us to see what >> that hardware actually covers...". Which, of course, had been the >> original question. >> >> They are now prominently on my crap-list of vendors to avoid. >> >> >> Steve >> >> p.s. - Good luck with the software! > > :-) Thanks! > > I get the impression that the "tech support" people are just sales people > who can't be bothered to find out the real, factual answers. The response > I got was really just a sales pitch for a new $700 programmer... > to which I replied, that if I were to get a new programmer, I would > certainly get one that had Linux host software. > > I can understand them not wanting to burn large amounts of support time > or effort on obsolete product... but I don't think we got anywhere > close to that with my simple request for information. > > I've added them to my crap-list too. > > And Dan on this list has sent me some old DOS software to try so we'll see > what we get. Thanks Dan. Good luck! I ended up buying an Andromeda Research programming system after the experience with Advin. Completely at the other end of the spectrum. It's a small company and they bend over backwards to be helpful. 100% of the technical information is available: all schematics for the base unit and all adapters (there are many of them). All adapters are available as bare PCBs if you want to build them yourself. I assembled the bipolar PROM adapter and a couple of others in a weekend. The system covers just about every type of programmable device known to man, with the sole exception being PALs and PLDs. The software is DOS only, but no big deal. It's not resource hungry so I use an old Dell P3 box as a bench computer to drive it. I cannot recommend them highly enough! Steve -- From rodsmallwood at btconnect.com Wed Nov 10 01:49:47 2010 From: rodsmallwood at btconnect.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2010 07:49:47 -0000 Subject: Northstar Horizion In-Reply-To: <5ac8219016560e0e2a636890b832fb3c@localhost> References: <5ac8219016560e0e2a636890b832fb3c@localhost> Message-ID: <33B4C3034B494D2795DF2C672C2E755A@RodsDevSystem> Well I'm in England (Old not New) but please don?t let the Northstar go anywhere. I think you may be in Colorado. (Lovely state) Regards ? Rod Smallwood -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of les at frii.com Sent: 09 November 2010 20:35 To: cctech at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Northstar Horizion Rod, I am not sure where you are located, but I have a complete NS Horizon you can have. Les From geoffr at zipcon.net Wed Nov 10 01:37:20 2010 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoffrey Reed) Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2010 00:37:20 -0700 Subject: Northstar Horizion In-Reply-To: <5ac8219016560e0e2a636890b832fb3c@localhost> Message-ID: Lucky there... I no longer have my horizon :( went poof from storage a couple years back On 11/9/10 1:35 PM, "les at frii.com" wrote: > Rod, > I am not sure where you are located, but I have a complete NS Horizon > you can have. > > Les > From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Tue Nov 9 07:39:42 2010 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Tue, 09 Nov 2010 08:39:42 -0500 Subject: RTEM-11 Questions Message-ID: <4CD94F1E.8020603@compsys.to> I am attempting to enhance a program which runs under RSTS/E, RTEM-11, RT-11 and TSX-Plus. Thus far, I have managed to support these enhancements for all but RTEM-11 due to the lack of documentation on RTEM-11. When I requested help with supporting such programs under RSTS/E, John Dundas provided a reference document which cleared up many questions. Does anyone know of a document (and its link if it is on the internet, especially at bitsavers) which describes the support provided by RTEM-11 for programs which also run under RT-11? From the comments that I have seen, the RT-11 operating system is run under RTEM-11 with special "hooks" to interface to RTEM-11. If my understanding is correct, then all of the RT-11 EMT requests supported by an RT11SJ monitor will also be available when running under RTEM-11. There are also two other specific questions that I suspect have a simple answer: (a) How much memory does a user program have which runs under RTEM-11? My assumption is that a user program has approximately the same size of memory available when running under RTEM-11 as it would when running under the RT11SJ monitor on a PDP-11 with 64 KBytes of physical memory which usually (when no additional device drivers are present) ends up being approximately 48 KBytes or an address range from 0 to about 120000 octal. (b) Whereas RT-11 actively supports the ability of device drivers to be LOADed and UNLOADed at any time based on which devices are in active use, RSTS/E and TSX-Plus require the device drivers of any device that is active to be LOADed at all times. It would be an assumption on my part, but I tend to assume that under RTEM-11, any available devices are already LOADed by the actual operating system that controls the CPU. Specifically, if a user program performs the .DStatus RT-11 EMT request for an available device, the 3rd word of the device driver information will always be non-zero which specifies that the device driver in question is always in memory and that a .Fetch RT-11 EMT request would be redundant. Can anyone provide any documentation sources? If anyone knows the answer to the approximate size of memory available to a user program running under RTEM-11 and / or the answer concerning the LOADed status of a device driver, it would be greatly appreciated. Jerome Fine From legalize at xmission.com Wed Nov 10 10:55:51 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2010 09:55:51 -0700 Subject: AT&T 610 terminal In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In article , Mark Kahrs writes: > My 610 burned up a few months back and I have no interest in reviving > it. Is it a collectible? Or should I dispose of it at the local > Goodwill? It would help if you defined "burned up". Was it literally in a house fire? Pictures? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Wed Nov 10 11:36:46 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2010 10:36:46 -0700 Subject: Nuclear Data ND 6600 Message-ID: In article , Richard writes: > > In article , > Richard writes: > > > The Nuclear Data ND 6600 was some sort of laboratory PDP-11 setup. I > > have a terminal from such a system (very nice green keyboard). I'll > > upload some pics this week. > > However, I opened the case and was very surprised with what I found > inside the terminal. > > Its basically an empty box! Pics uploaded now: -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From cclist at sydex.com Wed Nov 10 11:58:23 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2010 09:58:23 -0800 Subject: CDC 6000/7000 operation, was: Virtual memory In-Reply-To: References: , <4CD9BE41.20182.412F8@cclist.sydex.com> , Message-ID: <4CDA6CBF.13205.9B6937@cclist.sydex.com> On 9 Nov 2010 at 23:53, Richard wrote: > What you're calling the display controller I was lumping into the PPU. > > The project ends up being the same scope -- you need to drive the > display and there's not much in the display itself. Yup, the 6612 display controller occupied an entire chassis (chassis 12) in the 6600. It basically provided character generation and positioning control for the DD60. At first blush, the DD60 interface looks to be the same as that of your unit. I couldn't find a logic diagram for the 6612 (or 6602) on bitsavers, but I did find the programming reference manual, which might provide some hints: */pdf/cdc/cyber/peripheralCtlr/60333900B_6602_6612_Console_Display_Sep 74.pdf * = insert your favorite bitsavers mirror. --Chuck From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Nov 10 12:04:42 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2010 13:04:42 -0500 Subject: S-100 board PCB planning In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Nov 6, 2010 at 11:33 AM, Andrew Lynch wrote: > ? ? ? ?S-100 68K CPU (first iteration prototype boards ordered) > > Please note the above boards no longer *planned* they are actual boards in > some form or another. What footprint did you end up with for the 68K CPU, and if it's the 64-pin DIP package, would you like to buy a few tubes of the CPUs? (I have NOS CPUs from the days of COMBOARDs - we made about 2000 boards over the years, but we still had a lot in the pipeline when demand dried up). -ethan From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Wed Nov 10 12:09:59 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2010 18:09:59 +0000 Subject: DiscFerret PCBs for sale Message-ID: <4CDADFF7.4020606@philpem.me.uk> Hi guys, I've got a batch of DiscFerret PCBs for sale. These are the first-cut boards, and work fine but for one requirement: you need to cut a track and install a 160k to 220k resistor over the break. C6 is missing the "+" polarity marker, though this is on the printed component layout (somehow it got missed off the silkscreen print). I'm happy that the design works, and any parts you need should be available from Farnell or DigiKey (or Mouser, but you'll need to get the FPGA from DigiKey). Soldering can be done with nothing more complex than a decent soldering iron, solder, desolder wick and a good magnifier. A PCB holder or Panavise and some paste flux would be very useful, but not essential. These boards are RoHS-compliant, two copper layers on a 1.6mm FR4 substrate. All vias and holes are fully plated-through, with a green solder mask and a white component layout print on the top side. They were manufactured by EuroCircuits BVBA (www.eurocircuits.com), and have been checked visually for damage or manufacturing issues. Cost is ?45 per board, plus shipping (which is likely to be very little). This does not include any parts, just the bare board, a printed component layout, a copy of the Bill of Materials and a copy of the Service Note which covers the track cut and . There are some extra options available: - TPS75003 chip pre-mounted. Add ?5 to the total. This includes a full electrical test (shorts and opens). - PIC microcontroller soldered down and pre-programmed. Add ?5. This includes programming the bootloader into the PIC, and means you won't need a PIC programmer to bootstrap the DiscFerret. - Both of the above -- add ?9. - Fully assembled and tested power supply section -- add ?25 - Fully assembled and tested PSU, with PIC pre-soldered and programmed: add ?29. Any parts I install will be soldered down with Multicore RP15 solder paste. This is a 96SC-alloy (95.5% tin, 3.8% silver, 0.7% copper) RoHS-compliant lead-free solder paste with a No-Clean flux. If you decide to remove a component and replace it with 60:40 SnPb solder, then desolder the existing part, remove all solder with desolder wick (Chemtronics Soder-Wick works nicely for this), then re-tin the pads with 60:40 solder, remove that solder, then install the part. If you'd like any other components supplying or pre-mounting, please email and ask for a quote. I'm not going to start doing fully-assembled boards until I get the next batch of boards in stock (hopefully this Friday). Basically, the production boards will be from the "0J28" batch, which has a number of part placement differences. These differences render the solder paste stencil for the 0J28 useless for the 0I06... No paste mask, no mass production. Making a DiscFerret using hand soldering techniques takes nearly a day -- with solder paste and a reflow oven, a couple of hours at most. There is no firmware difference between 0I06 and 0J28 boards: you can use the same FPGA microcode and PIC firmware; the only differences are in component placement (0J28 was redesigned to meet the Gold Phoenix 7mil design rules) and that 0J28 includes pads for the 160k resistor. To order, send me an email (this address is fine, or change the user-part from 'classiccmp' to 'philpem' to get my main mailbox) with: - Your name and address (I'll assume the From and Reply-To are set correctly in your mail client!) - What exactly you want to order I'll send a PayPal invoice for the total amount, and will send the boards out when the invoice has been paid. I usually assemble boards during the week, and post them out on Saturdays. For UK customers I'd advise going with Special Delivery due to the cost, and "Airsure" for international orders. If, however, you'd prefer I send them First Class or Airmail, I'll do that as long as you agree not to come after me for a refund if they get lost in the post...! (First Class and Airmail are uninsured) Thanks, -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From shumaker at att.net Wed Nov 10 13:25:09 2010 From: shumaker at att.net (steve shumaker) Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2010 11:25:09 -0800 Subject: Help with a "Mark 1" 6502 SBC In-Reply-To: <33B4C3034B494D2795DF2C672C2E755A@RodsDevSystem> References: <5ac8219016560e0e2a636890b832fb3c@localhost> <33B4C3034B494D2795DF2C672C2E755A@RodsDevSystem> Message-ID: <4CDAF195.7070508@att.net> This unit was purchased some time back off Craig's List from an individual who stated he couldn't even remember where he acquired it.. Thus it has no provenance of any kind. There appears to be no information on the web searching the usual places and using the obvious terms. Unit is labeled "Mark 1". It has a 6502 CPU and the appropriate support chips to qualify as a SBC although the keypad is not labeles as a typical hex pad. Date codes seem to be early 80s. The printer uses a character belt rather than thermal. only label anywhere on the unit seems to be the two "Made in Hong Kong" stickers! thoughts/suggestions on what this is or where to look for more info would be most welcome! (plan to post a msg on 6502.org but figured to start here) http://picasaweb.google.com/114639080007220617932/Mark1SBC6502?feat=directlink steve On 11/9/2010 11:49 PM, Rod Smallwood wrote: > Well I'm in England (Old not New) but please don?t let the Northstar go > anywhere. I think you may be in Colorado. (Lovely state) > > > Regards > > Rod Smallwood > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] > On Behalf Of les at frii.com > Sent: 09 November 2010 20:35 > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Northstar Horizion > > Rod, > I am not sure where you are located, but I have a complete NS Horizon > you can have. > > Les > > > From shumaker at att.net Wed Nov 10 13:27:44 2010 From: shumaker at att.net (steve shumaker) Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2010 11:27:44 -0800 Subject: Help with a "Mark 1" 6502 SBC In-Reply-To: <4CDAF195.7070508@att.net> References: <5ac8219016560e0e2a636890b832fb3c@localhost> <33B4C3034B494D2795DF2C672C2E755A@RodsDevSystem> <4CDAF195.7070508@att.net> Message-ID: <4CDAF230.2020006@att.net> and apologies to Rod and Les for not cleaning the prior msg content oops! steve On 11/10/2010 11:25 AM, steve shumaker wrote: > This unit was purchased some time back off Craig's List from an > individual who stated he couldn't even remember where he acquired it.. > Thus it has no provenance of any kind. There appears to be no > information on the web searching the usual places and using the > obvious terms. > > Unit is labeled "Mark 1". It has a 6502 CPU and the appropriate > support chips to qualify as a SBC although the keypad is not labeles > as a typical hex pad. Date codes seem to be early 80s. The printer > uses a character belt rather than thermal. > > only label anywhere on the unit seems to be the two "Made in Hong > Kong" stickers! > > thoughts/suggestions on what this is or where to look for more info > would be most welcome! (plan to post a msg on 6502.org but figured to > start here) > > > http://picasaweb.google.com/114639080007220617932/Mark1SBC6502?feat=directlink > > > > steve > > > > On 11/9/2010 11:49 PM, Rod Smallwood wrote: >> Well I'm in England (Old not New) but please don?t let the Northstar go >> anywhere. I think you may be in Colorado. (Lovely state) >> >> >> Regards >> >> Rod Smallwood >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org >> [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] >> On Behalf Of les at frii.com >> Sent: 09 November 2010 20:35 >> To: cctech at classiccmp.org >> Subject: Re: Northstar Horizion >> >> Rod, >> I am not sure where you are located, but I have a complete NS Horizon >> you can have. >> >> Les >> >> > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Nov 10 13:47:06 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2010 19:47:06 +0000 (GMT) Subject: RL01/RL02 cables and terminators and unit plugs (was Re: PDP-11/34A In-Reply-To: from "Ethan Dicks" at Nov 9, 10 06:28:31 pm Message-ID: > > On 11/9/10, Tony Duell wrote: > > The cables are differnet betwene the RLs and the RK06/07 (the latter has > > all pins bet one (termintor power) connected > > That rings a bell (term power). Yes. the terminator needs a +5V supply (electrically, the termiantor is what you'd espect, a load of potential dividers between +5V and ground with the signals going to the taps). On th RL drives, the 2 connectors on the back palen are electrically identical [1] and are connected by a 40 wire ribbon cable wit 3 BERG connectors (one to fit ontyo each of the cable connectors, the last one goes to the Drive Logic Board. So the +5V apears on both cable connectors. For obvious reasons connecting the 5V supplies of 2 drives in parallel is a bad idea, so that pin is not conneced in the cable. All others are connected in an RK06/07 cables (whcih can be used on RLs IIRC), but the true RL cable only has the necessary singals conneted. [1] I don;t think that;'s true of the RK06/07. The 'In' and 'Out' connectors are marked o nthe backplane and I think you have to get them the right way round. Maybe some signals are buffered in the drive or something. I would haev to chack the prints. > One handy bit of trivia if you happen to have spare Unit plugs from > the high numbers of an RK06/RK07 set is that they work in an RL01/RL02 > if you mentally mask off 2^2 (i.e., an RK06/RK06 plug labelled "4" is > "0" on an RL01/RL02). It's the same sort of switch/bulb housing, but > one less bit going back to the electronics. We didn't do it often, The RL switch housing has all the contacts fitted, but one of them is not connected up. The 0..3 caps are indencial between RLs and RK06/07s, the 4..7 work as you describe. The other caps fit too, I think one of my RK07s has thr wrong cap on the laod switch, it came off a dead RL... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Nov 10 13:37:10 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2010 19:37:10 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Gandalf In-Reply-To: <9a2fafec9cd1d4b00384a2b910a1a7e1@cs.ubc.ca> from "Brent Hilpert" at Nov 9, 10 02:07:08 pm Message-ID: > > On 2010 Nov 9, at 5:41 AM, Shoppa, Tim wrote: > > > De writes: > >>> I am looking for info on a Gandalf LDS120 modem, specifically the > >>> serial port pinout. > > > >> In the division of irrelevant to the original question, I thought > >> these > >> things were line drivers, not modems. > > > > I always thought they got lumped into "short haul 4-wire modems". > > Yet Another Terminology Debate. In common parlance, I think "modem" has > frequently been used where "line driver" would be more technically > correct. I suspect there are some dubious cases, and that the LDS120 is one of them... Some things are clearly modems by any sensible defintion. I don;t think anyone would try to claim that the think I downloaded this message with (an old US Robotics Sportster 14K4) is not a modem. Similarly, the RS232-RS422 interface I have one the shelf is a line driveer by most definitions. It does, indeed, 'drive a line'. The LDS120 is in the middle. Yes, it drives a farily long cable. But it also IMHO changes the incoming date into a pulse train and one end and changes it back again at the other. That could certainly be considered to be a form of modulation and demodulation. > At ubc, in the mainframe/MTS/centralised-computing-service days of the > 70s/80s, the terminals spread around the campus had ubiquitous little > white plastic utility boxes with a couple of leds on the front sitting > by the terminal. They were RS-232<->4-wire line-drivers, built in-house > by the computing centre. I think they started building them out of > necessity before manufacturers entered the market in a big way. > > I extracted one from a junk pile some years ago for nostalgia/history's > sake. What's inside? The LDS120 seems ot bave been fairly common in UK Universities. They were used to link up the Cambridge University Data Network when I was an undergraduate in the 1980s (I beleive they carried X25 signals from the JNT-PADs). The first one I bought (at a radio rally) had a label on it indicating it came from The Other Place. And I got more in a clearout at Bristol University some years later. -tony From legalize at xmission.com Wed Nov 10 14:16:41 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2010 13:16:41 -0700 Subject: need teco suggestions Message-ID: I need a TECO command suggestion that will fit in 3 lines of 18 chars each. It would be nice if I could have 5 chars leftover to have "TECO:" or "TECO " in there :-) -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Wed Nov 10 14:22:02 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2010 13:22:02 -0700 Subject: CDC 6000/7000 operation, was: Virtual memory In-Reply-To: <4CDA6CBF.13205.9B6937@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4CD9BE41.20182.412F8@cclist.sydex.com> , <4CDA6CBF.13205.9B6937@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: In article <4CDA6CBF.13205.9B6937 at cclist.sydex.com>, "Chuck Guzis" writes: > I couldn't find a logic diagram for the 6612 (or 6602) on bitsavers, > but I did find the programming reference manual, which might provide > some hints: > > http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/cdc/cyber/peripheralCtlr/60333900B_6602_6612_Console_Display_Sep74.pdf This seems similar to the 12-bit word commands described in the docs for the CC545. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Wed Nov 10 16:02:56 2010 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2010 14:02:56 -0800 (PST) Subject: Burroughs docs In-Reply-To: <4B842F49.3030907@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <898091.732.qm@web80503.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Pete picked up the Burroughs machines and is wondering when you will finish the scanning so he can play with them. It's probably easier that he pick the stuff up from you when your done. He comes from the central valley and your much closer than Bonny Doon! Thanks, Bob From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Wed Nov 10 16:05:52 2010 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2010 14:05:52 -0800 (PST) Subject: Burroughs - Whoops last was meant to be private. In-Reply-To: <4B842F49.3030907@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <888935.97586.qm@web80502.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Sorry guys, Last message should have been private. Bob From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Nov 10 16:50:10 2010 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2010 14:50:10 -0800 Subject: Burroughs docs In-Reply-To: <898091.732.qm@web80503.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <898091.732.qm@web80503.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4CDB21A2.8010702@bitsavers.org> On 11/10/10 2:02 PM, Bob Rosenbloom wrote: > Pete picked up the Burroughs machines and is wondering when you will finish > the scanning so he can play with them. I guess you loaned the docs out to someone else to scan? From innfoclassics at gmail.com Wed Nov 10 17:25:31 2010 From: innfoclassics at gmail.com (Paxton Hoag) Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2010 15:25:31 -0800 Subject: Nuclear Data ND 6600 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >> >> In article , >> ? ? Richard writes: >> >> > The Nuclear Data ND 6600 was some sort of laboratory PDP-11 setup. ?I >> > have a terminal from such a system (very nice green keyboard). ?I'll >> > upload some pics this week. >> >> However, I opened the case and was very surprised with what I found >> inside the terminal. >> >> Its basically an empty box! > > Pics uploaded now: > > I think I had one of these in the mid 1990s. It plugged into a rack mount computer in a standard bus rack mount card cage of the same color. Several cards in the backplane, CPU was an 8 bit card, serial IO ports and a video driver card if I remember correctly, 5 or 6 cards in the STD bus. I don't remember any drives. I think it was a laboratory instrument controller. Unfortunately it went to scrap about 1998. Paxton ----- Paxton Hoag Astoria, OR USA From RichA at vulcan.com Wed Nov 10 17:35:50 2010 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2010 15:35:50 -0800 Subject: need teco suggestions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: From: Richard Sent: Wednesday, November 10, 2010 12:17 PM > I need a TECO command suggestion that will fit in 3 lines of 18 chars > each. > It would be nice if I could have 5 chars leftover to have "TECO:" or > "TECO " in there :-) Hi, Richard, It would help if we knew what you are trying to accomplish. For example, I like the TECO strings found in Rob Austein's "Alice's PDP-10". I also maintain MIT TECO EMACS, so I have access to a metric boat load of TECO. Please amplify. Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.PDPplanet.org/ http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From legalize at xmission.com Wed Nov 10 17:58:42 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2010 16:58:42 -0700 Subject: need teco suggestions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In article , Rich Alderson writes: > From: Richard > Sent: Wednesday, November 10, 2010 12:17 PM > > > I need a TECO command suggestion that will fit in 3 lines of 18 chars > > each. > > > It would be nice if I could have 5 chars leftover to have "TECO:" or > > "TECO " in there :-) > > Hi, Richard, > > It would help if we knew what you are trying to accomplish. For example, > I like the TECO strings found in Rob Austein's "Alice's PDP-10". I also > maintain MIT TECO EMACS, so I have access to a metric boat load of TECO. The only constraint is the amount of text. It would be nice if it served some useful purpose within those constraints, but that's not a requirement. I tried googling for an archive of TECO macros, but I couldn't find much of anything. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Wed Nov 10 18:01:11 2010 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2010 19:01:11 -0500 Subject: need teco suggestions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CDB3247.2060003@compsys.to> >Richard wrote: >I need a TECO command suggestion that will fit in 3 lines of 18 chars >each. > >It would be nice if I could have 5 chars leftover to have "TECO:" or >"TECO " in there :-) > Can you please be a little more specific. Back in 1980 when RT-11 was V04.00 and BINCOM.SAV, I wrote a MUNG script that could: DIFF/BIN DL0:*.LST DL1:*.LST This ability was not available until V05.00 in 1983. One interesting feature of the file BIN.TEC was that different parts were used in each of the first 2 passes and that the 2nd pass was automatically initiated by the 1st pass which produced a directory file. Now that V05.00 of RT-11 allows wildcard file definitions in BINCOM.SAV, I no longer need BIN.TEC except on those rare occasions when the options available from the DIR command are needed. Again, suggest something reasonable that can be done in 54 TECO command characters. Jerome Fine From dm561 at torfree.net Wed Nov 10 19:50:21 2010 From: dm561 at torfree.net (MikeS) Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2010 20:50:21 -0500 Subject: CDC 6000/7000 operation, was: Virtual memory References: Message-ID: <6734270C8AB544F68B307866B344D05C@vl420mt> Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2010 09:58:23 -0800 From: "Chuck Guzis" Subject: Re: CDC 6000/7000 operation, was: Virtual memory On 9 Nov 2010 at 23:53, Richard wrote: > What you're calling the display controller I was lumping into the PPU. > > The project ends up being the same scope -- you need to drive the > display and there's not much in the display itself. Yup, the 6612 display controller occupied an entire chassis (chassis 12) in the 6600. It basically provided character generation and positioning control for the DD60. At first blush, the DD60 interface looks to be the same as that of your unit. I couldn't find a logic diagram for the 6612 (or 6602) on bitsavers, but I did find the programming reference manual, which might provide some hints: */pdf/cdc/cyber/peripheralCtlr/60333900B_6602_6612_Console_Display_Sep 74.pdf * = insert your favorite bitsavers mirror. --Chuck ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ I scrapped a CDC display controller many years ago and probably still have some cards out of it (made a nice solid desk as well); doesn't quite look like the picture although the keyboard sure looks familiar. Had a large diode matrix 'PROM' PCB IIRC. I'll check the model number when I'm back home again in case there's anything useful. mike From geoffr at zipcon.net Wed Nov 10 18:23:13 2010 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoffrey Reed) Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2010 17:23:13 -0700 Subject: Help with a "Mark 1" 6502 SBC In-Reply-To: <4CDAF195.7070508@att.net> Message-ID: Looks like some sort of dialler unit, possibly for international calls??? On 11/10/10 12:25 PM, "steve shumaker" wrote: > This unit was purchased some time back off Craig's List from an > individual who stated he couldn't even remember where he acquired it.. > Thus it has no provenance of any kind. There appears to be no > information on the web searching the usual places and using the obvious > terms. > > Unit is labeled "Mark 1". It has a 6502 CPU and the appropriate support > chips to qualify as a SBC although the keypad is not labeles as a > typical hex pad. Date codes seem to be early 80s. The printer uses a > character belt rather than thermal. > > only label anywhere on the unit seems to be the two "Made in Hong Kong" > stickers! > > thoughts/suggestions on what this is or where to look for more info > would be most welcome! (plan to post a msg on 6502.org but figured to > start here) > > > http://picasaweb.google.com/114639080007220617932/Mark1SBC6502?feat=directlink > > > steve > > > > On 11/9/2010 11:49 PM, Rod Smallwood wrote: >> Well I'm in England (Old not New) but please don?t let the Northstar go >> anywhere. I think you may be in Colorado. (Lovely state) >> >> >> Regards >> >> Rod Smallwood >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] >> On Behalf Of les at frii.com >> Sent: 09 November 2010 20:35 >> To: cctech at classiccmp.org >> Subject: Re: Northstar Horizion >> >> Rod, >> I am not sure where you are located, but I have a complete NS Horizon >> you can have. >> >> Les >> >> >> > From geoffr at zipcon.net Wed Nov 10 18:24:53 2010 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoffrey Reed) Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2010 17:24:53 -0700 Subject: AT&T 610 terminal In-Reply-To: Message-ID: In article , Mark Kahrs writes: > My 610 burned up a few months back and I have no interest in reviving > it. Is it a collectible? Or should I dispose of it at the local > Goodwill? Please, coming from someone who has helped out at a non profit, don't dump broken junk on them, they will have to pay to dispose of it :( From cclist at sydex.com Wed Nov 10 20:38:16 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2010 18:38:16 -0800 Subject: CDC 6000/7000 operation, was: Virtual memory In-Reply-To: <6734270C8AB544F68B307866B344D05C@vl420mt> References: , <6734270C8AB544F68B307866B344D05C@vl420mt> Message-ID: <4CDAE698.23787.27893A2@cclist.sydex.com> On 10 Nov 2010 at 20:50, MikeS wrote: > I scrapped a CDC display controller many years ago and probably still > have some cards out of it (made a nice solid desk as well); doesn't > quite look like the picture although the keyboard sure looks familiar. > Had a large diode matrix 'PROM' PCB IIRC. I wonder if it's not the 3000-series display. The 6000 series was strictly cordwood modules. I did find the tab list for chassis 12 in the 6600 here: */pdf/cdc/cyber/cyber_70/fieldEngr/63016700A_6600_Chassis_Tabs_12_Apr6 5.pdf * = insert bitsavers mirror here The 3290 terminal is this one: */pdf/cdc/cyber/peripheralCtlr/82122900_3290- D_Display_Equipment_Oct68.pdf These were used as remote entry terminals, usually with at least a card reader and a printer. It's possible that you ran across a 200-series IGS console, but that'd be pretty astounding: */pdf/cdc/graphics/ I loved to watch the IGS people fooling around with the 270 Digigraphic display console--it had a peculiar two-tone appearance while it was running--green and blue. --Chuck From pat at computer-refuge.org Wed Nov 10 21:22:25 2010 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2010 22:22:25 -0500 Subject: AT&T 610 terminal In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201011102222.25405.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Wednesday, November 10, 2010, Geoffrey Reed wrote: > In article > , > > Mark Kahrs writes: > > My 610 burned up a few months back and I have no interest in > > reviving it. Is it a collectible? Or should I dispose of it at > > the local Goodwill? > > Please, coming from someone who has helped out at a non profit, don't > dump broken junk on them, they will have to pay to dispose of it :( Dell partnered with Goodwill to recycle old computers for free: http://reconnectpartnership.com/ Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From geoffr at zipcon.net Wed Nov 10 22:01:19 2010 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoffrey Reed) Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2010 21:01:19 -0700 Subject: AT&T 610 terminal In-Reply-To: <201011102222.25405.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: I didn't know about that !! Cool, thanks for telling me about it. On 11/10/10 8:22 PM, "Patrick Finnegan" wrote: > On Wednesday, November 10, 2010, Geoffrey Reed wrote: >> In article >> , >> >> Mark Kahrs writes: >>> My 610 burned up a few months back and I have no interest in >>> reviving it. Is it a collectible? Or should I dispose of it at >>> the local Goodwill? >> >> Please, coming from someone who has helped out at a non profit, don't >> dump broken junk on them, they will have to pay to dispose of it :( > > Dell partnered with Goodwill to recycle old computers for free: > http://reconnectpartnership.com/ > > Pat From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Thu Nov 11 01:53:59 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2010 07:53:59 +0000 Subject: DiscFerret - REVISED PRICES (was DiscFerret PCBs for sale) In-Reply-To: <4CDADFF7.4020606@philpem.me.uk> References: <4CDADFF7.4020606@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4CDBA117.1040305@philpem.me.uk> On 10/11/10 18:09, Philip Pemberton wrote: > Cost is ?45 per board, plus shipping (which is likely to be very > little). This does not include any parts, just the bare board, a printed > component layout, a copy of the Bill of Materials and a copy of the > Service Note which covers the track cut and resistor. ARGH. I screwed this up big-time -- I was looking at the prices based on the first production batch, not my revised spreadsheet. D'oh! These are the actual prices, including rough US-dollar equivalents Bare board: ?22.50 ($37) With TPS75003 mounted: ?27.50 ($45) With PIC mounted: ?27.50 ($45) With both mounted: ?31.50 ($51) PCB + assembled & tested PSU: ?45 ($72) PCB + tested PSU + PIC soldered/programmed: ?49 ($79) I'll sell either a 0I06 (prototype) or 0J28 (rev-2) board at the same price, specify your preference at time of ordering or I'll just pick one at random out of the box :) Differences between the boards are: - Solder plating: 0I06 boards are hot-air levelled lead-free (or appear to be); 0J28 boards are immersion silver. 0J28 board plating oxidises quicker, but is more compatible with lead-based solder (especially if you're using silver-loaded SnPb solder). - 0I06 boards need the track-cut and resistor. 0J28 boards need a wire jumper installing due to a power plane issue. Ordering is the same -- email me, let me know what you want, I'll send you a price including P&P. Thanks, -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From bqt at softjar.se Wed Nov 10 12:53:14 2010 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2010 19:53:14 +0100 Subject: Old terms... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CDAEA1A.4060702@softjar.se> On 11/09/10 10:44, Roger Holmes wrote: >> > From: Johnny Billquist >> > >> > Gah. I have no idea what PPU mean, nor PP. > You're probably just not old enough. That is definitely true here. :-) > In the 50s the main processor was called the CPU (Central Processing Unit) to differentiate it from the various PPUs, (Peripheral Processing Units). The first machine I programmed, the IBM 7094 had a CPU and two PPUs, one to read cards and write the images to tape transports, which would then be switched over to the CPU to read, compile and execute the job and write the results back to another tape transport which then got switched to the other PPU which then transferred the tape image to a line printer. Thanks. That explains it. > Somehow now (when most peripherals have embedded processors which could be called PPUs) we seem to have stopped using the term. Yeah. It might have gotten lost in the inbetween years when computers were trying to get rid of, at the time, expensive peripherials (they were expensive enough without being their own computer). I only started playing with computers in those inbetween years. :-) Johnny From nick.allen at comcast.net Wed Nov 10 14:50:05 2010 From: nick.allen at comcast.net (Nick Allen) Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2010 14:50:05 -0600 Subject: FS on ebay: IMSAI 8080 Microcomputer and CompuPro S-100 Boards Message-ID: <4CDB057D.1090101@comcast.net> For anyone interested... Just listed a fully functioning IMSAI and several compupro boards (Z80 8mhz CPU, floppy, hard drive and serial port controllers): http://shop.ebay.com/sdinet/m.html?_nkw=&_armrs=1&_from=&_ipg=50&_sop=1 From snhirsch at gmail.com Wed Nov 10 17:09:59 2010 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2010 18:09:59 -0500 (EST) Subject: DiscFerret PCBs for sale In-Reply-To: <4CDADFF7.4020606@philpem.me.uk> References: <4CDADFF7.4020606@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: On Wed, 10 Nov 2010, Philip Pemberton wrote: > - PIC microcontroller soldered down and pre-programmed. Add ?5. This > includes programming the bootloader into the PIC, and means you won't need a > PIC programmer to bootstrap the DiscFerret. Is the PIC an SMD part? Also, can you post any photos, board layout pictorials or schematics? I'd like to get some sense of what's involved to assemble it. If they are up, URL please? Steve -- From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Thu Nov 11 02:26:16 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2010 08:26:16 +0000 Subject: DiscFerret PCBs for sale In-Reply-To: References: <4CDADFF7.4020606@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4CDBA8A8.7050906@philpem.me.uk> On 10/11/10 23:09, Steven Hirsch wrote: > On Wed, 10 Nov 2010, Philip Pemberton wrote: > >> - PIC microcontroller soldered down and pre-programmed. Add ?5. This >> includes programming the bootloader into the PIC, and means you won't >> need a PIC programmer to bootstrap the DiscFerret. > > Is the PIC an SMD part? Yes -- A 0.5mm pitch, 80-pin TQFP. The FPGA is a 0.4mm pitch, 144-pin TQFP. The power controller chip (TPS75003) is a QFN, which means it doesn't have pins, just a bunch of pads on the bottom of the chip. Hence why I said you need a hot-air station to solder it down... > Also, can you post any photos, board layout pictorials or schematics? The schematics are in the version control repository in EAGLE format. The URL is http://hg.discferret.com/hardware . I've uploaded a PDF version here: http://www.discferret.com/pdf/discferret_sch.pdf And a PDF of the PCB layout here: http://www.discferret.com/pdf/discferret_pcb.pdf The PCB layout is about twice real size; that particular PDF is the "component location plot" I was going to include with the later-rev boards... Thanks, -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Thu Nov 11 02:48:38 2010 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2010 00:48:38 -0800 (PST) Subject: FS on ebay: IMSAI 8080 Microcomputer and CompuPro S-100 Boards In-Reply-To: <4CDB057D.1090101@comcast.net> References: <4CDB057D.1090101@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 10 Nov 2010, Nick Allen wrote: > For anyone interested... > > Just listed a fully functioning IMSAI and several compupro boards (Z80 8mhz > CPU, floppy, hard drive and serial port controllers): > > http://shop.ebay.com/sdinet/m.html?_nkw=&_armrs=1&_from=&_ipg=50&_sop=1 I have just the thing to go with all that. Lots of Compupro documentation! See http://myworld.ebay.com/frotz661 -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From arcarlini at iee.org Thu Nov 11 08:22:11 2010 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2010 14:22:11 -0000 Subject: need teco suggestions In-Reply-To: <4CDB3247.2060003@compsys.to> Message-ID: <15E596804ABB48568A513FFAC7522511@ANTONIOPC> > >Richard wrote: > >> I need a TECO command suggestion that will fit in 3 lines of 18 >> chars each. >> Doesn't quite fit the requirements but fun nonetheless, this is Stanley Rabinowitz's TECO macro to calculate N digits of pi: GZ0J\UNQN"E 40UN ' BUH BUV HK QN< J BUQ QN*10/3UI QI< \+2*10+(QQ*QI)UA B L K QI*2-1UJ QA/QJUQ QA-(QQ*QJ)-2\ 10 at I// -1%I > QQ/10UT QH+QT+48UW QW-58"E 48UW %V ' QV"N QV^T ' QWUV QQ-(QT*10)UH > QV^T @^A/ /HKEX$$ It's been years since I last ran that ... happy days :-) Antonio From legalize at xmission.com Thu Nov 11 10:24:51 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2010 09:24:51 -0700 Subject: need teco suggestions In-Reply-To: <4CDB3247.2060003@compsys.to> References: <4CDB3247.2060003@compsys.to> Message-ID: In article <4CDB3247.2060003 at compsys.to>, "Jerome H. Fine" writes: > >Richard wrote: > > >I need a TECO command suggestion that will fit in 3 lines of 18 chars > >each. > > > >It would be nice if I could have 5 chars leftover to have "TECO:" or > >"TECO " in there :-) > > > Can you please be a little more specific. Really, I'm just looking for an example of a small TECO macro that fits in the number of characters. Most macro files I've found are too long, which is why they were written as macro files and not just typed as commands. > Again, suggest something reasonable that can be done in 54 TECO command > characters. Lots of reasonable things can be done in 54 TECO command characters, it just tends to be what people typed interactively and not what they archived in a macro file. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Thu Nov 11 10:26:05 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2010 09:26:05 -0700 Subject: need teco suggestions In-Reply-To: <15E596804ABB48568A513FFAC7522511@ANTONIOPC> References: <15E596804ABB48568A513FFAC7522511@ANTONIOPC> Message-ID: In article <15E596804ABB48568A513FFAC7522511 at ANTONIOPC>, writes: > > > >Richard wrote: > > > >> I need a TECO command suggestion that will fit in 3 lines of 18 > >> chars each. > >> > > Doesn't quite fit the requirements but fun nonetheless, this is Stanley > Rabinowitz's TECO macro to calculate N digits of pi: > > > GZ0J\UNQN"E 40UN ' BUH BUV HK > QN< J BUQ QN*10/3UI > QI< \+2*10+(QQ*QI)UA B L K QI*2-1UJ QA/QJUQ > QA-(QQ*QJ)-2\ 10 at I// -1%I > > QQ/10UT QH+QT+48UW QW-58"E 48UW %V ' QV"N QV^T ' QWUV QQ-(QT*10)UH > > QV^T @^A/ > /HKEX$$ Yeah, all the macros I am finding are too long. Maybe I should look through the TECO documentation for examples of shorter command sequences. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Thu Nov 11 10:37:58 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2010 09:37:58 -0700 Subject: Nuclear Data ND 6600 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In article , Paxton Hoag writes: > >> > >> In article , > >> Richard writes: > >> > >> > The Nuclear Data ND 6600 was some sort of laboratory PDP-11 setup. > > I think I had one of these in the mid 1990s. It plugged into a rack > mount computer in a standard bus rack mount card cage of the same > color. > [...] > Several cards in the backplane, CPU was an 8 bit card, serial IO ports > and a video driver card if I remember correctly, 5 or 6 cards in the > STD bus. I don't remember any drives. While I suppose that's possible, so far the only thing I have been able to find out about Nuclear Data is PDP-11/LSI-11 based and nothing STD based. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Thu Nov 11 10:41:11 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2010 09:41:11 -0700 Subject: CDC 6000/7000 operation, was: Virtual memory In-Reply-To: <6734270C8AB544F68B307866B344D05C@vl420mt> References: <6734270C8AB544F68B307866B344D05C@vl420mt> Message-ID: In article <6734270C8AB544F68B307866B344D05C at vl420mt>, "MikeS" writes: > I scrapped a CDC display controller many years ago and probably still have > some cards out of it (made a nice solid desk as well); doesn't quite look > like the picture although the keyboard sure looks familiar. Had a large > diode matrix 'PROM' PCB IIRC. > > I'll check the model number when I'm back home again in case there's > anything useful. As I understand it, unless its the display controller from a 170 for the console it isn't going to help me revive this particular equipment. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Nov 11 11:21:40 2010 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2010 09:21:40 -0800 Subject: Burroughs docs In-Reply-To: <898091.732.qm@web80503.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <898091.732.qm@web80503.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4CDC2624.4040808@bitsavers.org> On 11/10/10 2:02 PM, Bob Rosenbloom wrote: > Pete picked up the Burroughs machines and is wondering when you will finish > the scanning so he can play with them. The B25 docs are up on bitsavers under http://bitsavers.org/pdf/convergent/manuals_btos/ From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Nov 11 11:41:04 2010 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2010 09:41:04 -0800 Subject: surplus source for MRA connectors? In-Reply-To: <4CD09559.70703@bitsavers.org> References: <20101102212707.045E71E006F@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> <4CD09559.70703@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4CDC2AB0.2040605@bitsavers.org> On 11/2/10 3:48 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > On 11/2/10 2:27 PM, Tim Shoppa wrote: >>> In particular, the MRA42P solder cup 42 pin "winchester" plug for >>> Diablo 31 disk drives. >> After a week of digging around, I did finally come up with the connectors. I ended up getting MRAC connectors (separate pins and shells), with the shell from one source and pins from another. The pins are used in V.35 connectors, so they are easy to find. 42 pin MRAC shells were only made by Winchester, but there was a local source ($100 minimum though) From legalize at xmission.com Thu Nov 11 11:53:07 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2010 10:53:07 -0700 Subject: surplus source for MRA connectors? In-Reply-To: <4CDC2AB0.2040605@bitsavers.org> References: <20101102212707.045E71E006F@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> <4CD09559.70703@bitsavers.org> <4CDC2AB0.2040605@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: In article <4CDC2AB0.2040605 at bitsavers.org>, Al Kossow writes: > but there was a local source ($100 minimum though) Ouch. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Nov 11 12:22:03 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2010 13:22:03 -0500 Subject: CDC 6000/7000 operation, was: Virtual memory In-Reply-To: References: <6734270C8AB544F68B307866B344D05C@vl420mt> Message-ID: > As I understand it, unless its the display controller from a 170 for > the console it isn't going to help me revive this particular equipment. Cyber 180s, and I think most of the Cyber 900 series, can use a CC545 - but that does not really solve your problem. -- Will From legalize at xmission.com Thu Nov 11 12:27:06 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2010 11:27:06 -0700 Subject: CDC 6000/7000 operation, was: Virtual memory In-Reply-To: References: <6734270C8AB544F68B307866B344D05C@vl420mt> Message-ID: In article , William Donzelli writes: > > As I understand it, unless its the display controller from a 170 for > > the console it isn't going to help me revive this particular equipment. > > Cyber 180s, and I think most of the Cyber 900 series, can use a CC545 > - but that does not really solve your problem. Its nice to know that bitsavers has a bunch more documentation on the 170 systems, though. I had forgotten to check there for system level documentation and so far had only been focusing on the CC545 manual. I should probably PDF combine the 3 files from cray-cyber.org into a single document and send that to Al for inclusion at bitsavers. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Thu Nov 11 12:59:35 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2010 18:59:35 +0000 Subject: DiscFerret - REVISED PRICES (was DiscFerret PCBs for sale) In-Reply-To: <4CDBA117.1040305@philpem.me.uk> References: <4CDADFF7.4020606@philpem.me.uk> <4CDBA117.1040305@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4CDC3D17.105@philpem.me.uk> On 11/11/10 07:53, Philip Pemberton wrote: > With PIC mounted: ?27.50 ($45) > With both mounted: ?31.50 ($51) What I meant to say here was "With PIC mounted and programmed" and "With both TPS75003 and PIC mounted, and PIC programmed." Ugh. I should stop trying to send emails in the late evening and early morning. In any case, the new 0J28 boards arrived today, a day early. All of them are usable, the vias are drilled out a little smaller than I expected (read: 0.6mm has become <0.4mm)... not that it matters. The immersion silver coating looks very nice, and should solder nicely. Drill points and silkscreen alignment are right on the money. I'm expecting the solder paste squeegee tomorrow, and will likely nip into Farnell to pick up a 500g tub of Multicore 318LF solder paste and possibly some more parts next week. Somehow I don't think a 25g syringe of RA15 paste is going to cover three boards... I'm still waiting for an RFQ back from another distributor who reckoned he could beat Farnell's price on the FPGAs (not that hard). Once I have that I should be able to sort out a final price for fully assembled boards. Onwards and upwards! Cheers, -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From RichA at vulcan.com Thu Nov 11 13:43:30 2010 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2010 11:43:30 -0800 Subject: PPU In-Reply-To: <4CDA1024.9080001@compsys.to> References: , <275ED284-11E4-4B6D-8BAE-70009B09843E@microspot.co.uk> <4CD908B4.32181.631DD7@cclist.sydex.com> <20101109140931.K26885@shell.lmi.net> <4CDA1024.9080001@compsys.to> Message-ID: From: Jerome H. Fine Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 2010 7:23 PM > If my memory of the system is correct, the Toronto installation had > only tape drives and a small disk drive as units which allowed input > and output. Does anyone else remember how the 7094 handled input > and output? I would guess that if the 360 could handle the user > interface, then the 360 might be a bit slow at computation. There is no need to guess, and no, the 360 is not slow at computation (in its universe of discourse). A minimal System/360 system has a multiplexor channel for unit-record devices (card readers and punches, line printers) and a selector channel for high-speed devices (tapes, direct-access storage devices). These channels are the equivalent of the CDC PPUs, with DMA capability and their own programs (started by the CPU, and left to their own devices, so to speak ;-). Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.PDPplanet.org/ http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From legalize at xmission.com Thu Nov 11 14:00:15 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2010 13:00:15 -0700 Subject: need teco suggestions In-Reply-To: <4CDC4527.2040000@softjar.se> References: <4CDC4527.2040000@softjar.se> Message-ID: In article <4CDC4527.2040000 at softjar.se>, Johnny Billquist writes: > On 11/11/10 15:22, Richard wrote: > > > I need a TECO command suggestion that will fit in 3 lines of 18 chars > > each. > > > > It would be nice if I could have 5 chars leftover to have "TECO:" or > > "TECO " in there:-) > > What should it do? It doesn't matter. Its more about showing the flavor of TECO than the utility of doing something. > One thing that I occasionally do is having a list of files in a buffer, > I want to add some cruft before and after each file name, to create > something useful to run as a command file. > > Something like this then (without testing, off the top of my head): > > That's a good candidate! -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Nov 11 14:11:55 2010 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2010 12:11:55 -0800 Subject: surplus source for MRA connectors? In-Reply-To: References: <20101102212707.045E71E006F@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> <4CD09559.70703@bitsavers.org> <4CDC2AB0.2040605@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4CDC4E0B.7070101@bitsavers.org> On 11/11/10 9:53 AM, Richard wrote: >> but there was a local source ($100 minimum though) > > Ouch. The shells will be used for another project. I've started designing a board to do Diablo 31 disk simulation and experimental to standard ethernet conversion for the Alto, (along with a bunch of other useful things). It will bolt onto the back of the first drive, and get power from the +5v terminator power pin. A high density 68 pin cable replaces the cable from the drive interface board to the first drive, and also brings across the tx,rx, and collision signals from the ethernet board. The new board can either source or sink the command lines on the drive bus, so it can also be used as a tester or drive reader/writer so it will be possible to read and copy 2315 packs in any format. I have a bunch of Burroughs B1700 packs in the CHM collection I've been dying to try to recover. This all started yesterday when I stumbled upon these on eBay http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=130453759896 which are 200MHz ARM 9 boards with a user-programmable Cyclone II FPGA for $35 (I bought 10..) Hopefully, they'll be the base for a couple of different 14" drive recovery designs. From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Nov 11 14:24:42 2010 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2010 14:24:42 -0600 Subject: What Sir Clive is up to... Message-ID: <201011112025.oABKP6cu081701@billY.EZWIND.NET> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-1328742/Sir-Clive-Sinclairs-wife-Lady-Sinclair-sizzles-sun-sexy-beach-calendar-shoot.html - John From teoz at neo.rr.com Thu Nov 11 14:41:02 2010 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2010 15:41:02 -0500 Subject: What Sir Clive is up to... References: <201011112025.oABKP6cu081701@billY.EZWIND.NET> Message-ID: <83DBD455212941BABA4DB05EF66480AA@dell8300> He must have run out of money and not told anyone yet. ;) ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Foust" To: "cctalk" Sent: Thursday, November 11, 2010 3:24 PM Subject: What Sir Clive is up to... > > http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-1328742/Sir-Clive-Sinclairs-wife-Lady-Sinclair-sizzles-sun-sexy-beach-calendar-shoot.html > > - John > From jdr_use at bluewin.ch Thu Nov 11 15:21:42 2010 From: jdr_use at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2010 22:21:42 +0100 Subject: What Sir Clive is up to... In-Reply-To: <201011112025.oABKP6cu081701@billY.EZWIND.NET> References: <201011112025.oABKP6cu081701@billY.EZWIND.NET> Message-ID: <4CDC5E66.9040404@bluewin.ch> On 11/11/2010 09:24 PM, John Foust wrote: > http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-1328742/Sir-Clive-Sinclairs-wife-Lady-Sinclair-sizzles-sun-sexy-beach-calendar-shoot.html > > - John > > > And this is what he himself is doing : http://www.sinclairzx.com/spec-x-1.html Jos From cclist at sydex.com Thu Nov 11 15:29:35 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2010 13:29:35 -0800 Subject: What Sir Clive is up to... In-Reply-To: <201011112025.oABKP6cu081701@billY.EZWIND.NET> References: <201011112025.oABKP6cu081701@billY.EZWIND.NET> Message-ID: <4CDBEFBF.12250.10BBD71@cclist.sydex.com> On 11 Nov 2010 at 14:24, John Foust wrote: > > http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-1328742/Sir-Clive-Sinclai > rs-wife-Lady-Sinclair-sizzles-sun-sexy-beach-calendar-shoot.html He still owes me the PCB to my Black Watch kit... --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Thu Nov 11 15:32:29 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2010 13:32:29 -0800 Subject: PPU In-Reply-To: References: , <4CDA1024.9080001@compsys.to>, Message-ID: <4CDBF06D.32084.10E61F4@cclist.sydex.com> On 11 Nov 2010 at 11:43, Rich Alderson wrote: > A minimal System/360 system has a multiplexor channel for unit-record > devices (card readers and punches, line printers) and a selector > channel for high-speed devices (tapes, direct-access storage devices). > These channels are the equivalent of the CDC PPUs, with DMA capability > and their own programs (started by the CPU, and left to their own > devices, so to speak ;-). Having written my share of CCW chains in the past, I'd say "analogous" but not "equivalent"--unless you've seen a command-line parser or COBOL compiler written in CCWs... (Yes, a PPU COBOL compiler actually existed--done as a "project" by a couple of COBOL freaks.) --Chuck From legalize at xmission.com Thu Nov 11 15:32:45 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2010 14:32:45 -0700 Subject: surplus source for MRA connectors? In-Reply-To: <4CDC4E0B.7070101@bitsavers.org> References: <20101102212707.045E71E006F@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> <4CD09559.70703@bitsavers.org> <4CDC2AB0.2040605@bitsavers.org> <4CDC4E0B.7070101@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: In article <4CDC4E0B.7070101 at bitsavers.org>, Al Kossow writes: > This all started yesterday when I stumbled upon these on eBay > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=130453759896 > > which are 200MHz ARM 9 boards with a user-programmable Cyclone II FPGA > for $35 (I bought 10..) Neat! > Hopefully, they'll be the base for a couple of different 14" drive > recovery designs. Even cooler! :-) -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Thu Nov 11 16:11:19 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2010 20:11:19 -0200 Subject: What Sir Clive is up to... References: <201011112025.oABKP6cu081701@billY.EZWIND.NET> Message-ID: <141f01cb81ee$f59fc800$6400a8c0@portajara> > http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-1328742/Sir-Clive-Sinclairs-wife-Lady-Sinclair-sizzles-sun-sexy-beach-calendar-shoot.html He IS the MAN! :oD From curt at atarimuseum.com Thu Nov 11 16:29:37 2010 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2010 17:29:37 -0500 Subject: What Sir Clive is up to... In-Reply-To: <141f01cb81ee$f59fc800$6400a8c0@portajara> References: <201011112025.oABKP6cu081701@billY.EZWIND.NET> <141f01cb81ee$f59fc800$6400a8c0@portajara> Message-ID: <4CDC6E51.5030801@atarimuseum.com> ...and of course the lapdancer is only in love with him, and not his money ;-) Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-1328742/Sir-Clive-Sinclairs-wife-Lady-Sinclair-sizzles-sun-sexy-beach-calendar-shoot.html >> > > He IS the MAN! :oD > From doc at vaxen.net Thu Nov 11 16:59:07 2010 From: doc at vaxen.net (Doc Shipley) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2010 16:59:07 -0600 Subject: What Sir Clive is up to... In-Reply-To: <4CDC6E51.5030801@atarimuseum.com> References: <201011112025.oABKP6cu081701@billY.EZWIND.NET> <141f01cb81ee$f59fc800$6400a8c0@portajara> <4CDC6E51.5030801@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <4CDC753B.5010203@vaxen.net> On 11/11/10 4:29 PM, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > ...and of course the lapdancer is only in love with him, and not his > money ;-) Seriously, would you care? Doc From legalize at xmission.com Thu Nov 11 17:00:28 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2010 16:00:28 -0700 Subject: need teco suggestions In-Reply-To: <4CDC4527.2040000@softjar.se> References: <4CDC4527.2040000@softjar.se> Message-ID: OK, let me rephrase this from another perspective. What's the coolest TECO command sequence you can write in 49 characters? $10 paypal bounty to the best entry. I'm the judge of what is "best". -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From teoz at neo.rr.com Thu Nov 11 17:06:08 2010 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2010 18:06:08 -0500 Subject: What Sir Clive is up to... References: <201011112025.oABKP6cu081701@billY.EZWIND.NET> <141f01cb81ee$f59fc800$6400a8c0@portajara><4CDC6E51.5030801@atarimuseum.com> <4CDC753B.5010203@vaxen.net> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Doc Shipley" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, November 11, 2010 5:59 PM Subject: Re: What Sir Clive is up to... > On 11/11/10 4:29 PM, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: >> ...and of course the lapdancer is only in love with him, and not his >> money ;-) > > > Seriously, would you care? > > > Doc Cheaper to rent then to buy with UK marriage laws I would think (Paul McCartney anyone?). From doc at vaxen.net Thu Nov 11 17:07:40 2010 From: doc at vaxen.net (Doc Shipley) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2010 17:07:40 -0600 Subject: What Sir Clive is up to... In-Reply-To: References: <201011112025.oABKP6cu081701@billY.EZWIND.NET> <141f01cb81ee$f59fc800$6400a8c0@portajara><4CDC6E51.5030801@atarimuseum.com> <4CDC753B.5010203@vaxen.net> Message-ID: <4CDC773C.5060703@vaxen.net> On 11/11/10 5:06 PM, Teo Zenios wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Doc Shipley" > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Sent: Thursday, November 11, 2010 5:59 PM > Subject: Re: What Sir Clive is up to... > > >> On 11/11/10 4:29 PM, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: >>> ...and of course the lapdancer is only in love with him, and not his >>> money ;-) >> >> >> Seriously, would you care? >> >> >> Doc > > Cheaper to rent then to buy with UK marriage laws I would think (Paul > McCartney anyone?). Ah, but then you lose the prestige of ownership.... Doc From IanK at vulcan.com Thu Nov 11 17:27:53 2010 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2010 15:27:53 -0800 Subject: What Sir Clive is up to... In-Reply-To: <4CDC773C.5060703@vaxen.net> References: <201011112025.oABKP6cu081701@billY.EZWIND.NET> <141f01cb81ee$f59fc800$6400a8c0@portajara><4CDC6E51.5030801@atarimuseum.com> <4CDC753B.5010203@vaxen.net> <4CDC773C.5060703@vaxen.net> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Doc Shipley > Sent: Thursday, November 11, 2010 3:08 PM > To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: What Sir Clive is up to... > > On 11/11/10 5:06 PM, Teo Zenios wrote: > > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Doc Shipley" > > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > > > Sent: Thursday, November 11, 2010 5:59 PM > > Subject: Re: What Sir Clive is up to... > > > > > >> On 11/11/10 4:29 PM, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > >>> ...and of course the lapdancer is only in love with him, and not > his > >>> money ;-) > >> > >> > >> Seriously, would you care? > >> > >> > >> Doc > > > > Cheaper to rent then to buy with UK marriage laws I would think (Paul > > McCartney anyone?). > > Ah, but then you lose the prestige of ownership.... > You know what they say: money can't buy happiness, but you can rent reasonable substitutes. From legalize at xmission.com Thu Nov 11 17:28:13 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2010 16:28:13 -0700 Subject: need teco suggestions In-Reply-To: References: <4CDC4527.2040000@softjar.se> Message-ID: In article , Richard writes: > What's the coolest TECO command sequence you can write in 49 characters? Additional: control characters like ^B (ASCII 2) count as 2 characters for the purposes of counting towards the limit of 49. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Thu Nov 11 17:17:10 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2010 21:17:10 -0200 Subject: What Sir Clive is up to... References: <201011112025.oABKP6cu081701@billY.EZWIND.NET><141f01cb81ee$f59fc800$6400a8c0@portajara> <4CDC6E51.5030801@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <14a101cb81f8$2844a150$6400a8c0@portajara> > ...and of course the lapdancer is only in love with him, and not his > money ;-) >> He IS the MAN! :oD Sure. Money doesn't buy happiness (ha ha ha) From IanK at vulcan.com Thu Nov 11 17:30:50 2010 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2010 15:30:50 -0800 Subject: What Sir Clive is up to... In-Reply-To: <4CDC5E66.9040404@bluewin.ch> References: <201011112025.oABKP6cu081701@billY.EZWIND.NET> <4CDC5E66.9040404@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jos Dreesen > Sent: Thursday, November 11, 2010 1:22 PM > To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: What Sir Clive is up to... > > On 11/11/2010 09:24 PM, John Foust wrote: > > http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-1328742/Sir-Clive- > Sinclairs-wife-Lady-Sinclair-sizzles-sun-sexy-beach-calendar-shoot.html > > > > - John > > > > > > > > And this is what he himself is doing : > > http://www.sinclairzx.com/spec-x-1.html > > Jos Given the context of the conversation: am I the only one that noted the handlebars adjust "to accommodate any position"? Maybe that was Lady Sinclair's contribution to the specification.... Did I really type that out loud? -- Ian From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Nov 11 17:42:54 2010 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2010 16:42:54 -0700 Subject: What Sir Clive is up to... In-Reply-To: <14a101cb81f8$2844a150$6400a8c0@portajara> References: <201011112025.oABKP6cu081701@billY.EZWIND.NET><141f01cb81ee$f59fc800$6400a8c0@portajara> <4CDC6E51.5030801@atarimuseum.com> <14a101cb81f8$2844a150$6400a8c0@portajara> Message-ID: <4CDC7F7E.9060505@jetnet.ab.ca> On 11/11/2010 4:17 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >> ...and of course the lapdancer is only in love with him, and not his >> money ;-) >>> He IS the MAN! :oD > > Sure. Money doesn't buy happiness > (ha ha ha) That's cause it is never for sale, :) Ben. PS. did any of his computers have GOOD I/O storage? All I can think of cassette or stringy floppy. From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Thu Nov 11 18:21:06 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2010 22:21:06 -0200 Subject: What Sir Clive is up to... References: <201011112025.oABKP6cu081701@billY.EZWIND.NET><141f01cb81ee$f59fc800$6400a8c0@portajara> <4CDC6E51.5030801@atarimuseum.com><14a101cb81f8$2844a150$6400a8c0@portajara> <4CDC7F7E.9060505@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <159c01cb81ff$ad5232c0$6400a8c0@portajara> > PS. did any of his computers have GOOD I/O storage? > All I can think of cassette or stringy floppy. Back to ontopic :) Yep! Beta disk is one that comes to my mind. It used 3 1/2 and 5 1/4 drives, I had one with my TK90X (brazilian Speccy Clone) From christian_liendo at yahoo.com Fri Nov 12 08:47:58 2010 From: christian_liendo at yahoo.com (Christian Liendo) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2010 06:47:58 -0800 (PST) Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Christies_of_london_to_auction_apple_1_for_=A3150=2C000?= In-Reply-To: <159c01cb81ff$ad5232c0$6400a8c0@portajara> Message-ID: <458344.44478.qm@web113513.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> http://8bitaficionado.com/2010/11/12/christies-of-london-to-auction-apple-1-for-241000-00 From christian_liendo at yahoo.com Fri Nov 12 09:04:22 2010 From: christian_liendo at yahoo.com (Christian Liendo) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2010 07:04:22 -0800 (PST) Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re=3A_Christies_of_london_to_auction_apple_1_for_=A3150=2C?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?000?= In-Reply-To: <458344.44478.qm@web113513.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <616280.95468.qm@web113501.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Sorry I kinda rushed this post bu seriously. I don't think this is going to sell.. --- On Fri, 11/12/10, Christian Liendo wrote: > From: Christian Liendo > Subject: Christies of london to auction apple 1 for ?150,000 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Date: Friday, November 12, 2010, 9:47 AM > > http://8bitaficionado.com/2010/11/12/christies-of-london-to-auction-apple-1-for-241000-00 > > > > From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Nov 12 09:14:26 2010 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2010 09:14:26 -0600 Subject: Christies of london to auction apple 1 for £150, 000 In-Reply-To: <616280.95468.qm@web113501.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <458344.44478.qm@web113513.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <616280.95468.qm@web113501.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <201011121526.oACFQqCi027124@billY.EZWIND.NET> At 09:04 AM 11/12/2010, Christian Liendo wrote: >Sorry I kinda rushed this post bu seriously. I don't think this is going to sell.. http://8bitaficionado.com/2010/11/12/christies-of-london-to-auction-apple-1-for-241000-00 > > > > Wasn't this system on eBay a year or two ago? - John From marvin at west.net Fri Nov 12 10:09:13 2010 From: marvin at west.net (Marvin Johnston) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2010 08:09:13 -0800 Subject: Would You Pay $200,000 for an Original Apple Computer? Message-ID: <4CDD66A9.6040100@west.net> I saw this article about a Christie's auction and found it "funny" in a way. It will be interesting to find out what it actually brings. http://mashable.com/2010/11/12/apple-1-auction/ From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Fri Nov 12 10:30:19 2010 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2010 10:30:19 -0600 Subject: Would You Pay $200,000 for an Original Apple Computer? In-Reply-To: <4CDD66A9.6040100@west.net> References: <4CDD66A9.6040100@west.net> Message-ID: <4CDD6B9B.3090505@gmail.com> Marvin Johnston wrote: > I saw this article about a Christie's auction and found it "funny" in a > way. It will be interesting to find out what it actually brings. I might go as far as $20. :-) I like machines to be interesting, but don't care so much about what they were used for or their place in history[1] - and if I wanted to mess around with hardware of the A1's spec, there are surely far cheaper ways of doing it. [1] yeah, it's always nice if they have a "story", but it's not high on my list of requirements. ($20's probably rather optimistic though - I'm not sure what the chances are of finding a 1970's single-board machine for that amount these days. Most of the "barn finds" are likely long-gone) cheers Jules From teoz at neo.rr.com Fri Nov 12 10:29:13 2010 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2010 11:29:13 -0500 Subject: Would You Pay $200,000 for an Original Apple Computer? References: <4CDD66A9.6040100@west.net> Message-ID: <55B07822608344D4A3A44CAAEF0A5931@dell8300> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Marvin Johnston" To: "ClassicCmp" Sent: Friday, November 12, 2010 11:09 AM Subject: Would You Pay $200,000 for an Original Apple Computer? >I saw this article about a Christie's auction and found it "funny" in a >way. It will be interesting to find out what it actually brings. > > http://mashable.com/2010/11/12/apple-1-auction/ There is no single computer item (or groups of computer stuff) I would ever want to spend $200,000 for. Heck I would be pissed to find I sunk even $20K into my collection over the last 10 years. The only thing good about multi millionaires dumping obscene money into collectables is the money gets back into the economy, and eventually the item gets put into a museum for others to see (mostly because the collector doesn't want somebody else to own it after they croak). From teoz at neo.rr.com Fri Nov 12 10:36:49 2010 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2010 11:36:49 -0500 Subject: Would You Pay $200,000 for an Original Apple Computer? References: <4CDD66A9.6040100@west.net> <4CDD6B9B.3090505@gmail.com> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jules Richardson" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Friday, November 12, 2010 11:30 AM Subject: Re: Would You Pay $200,000 for an Original Apple Computer? > ($20's probably rather optimistic though - I'm not sure what the chances > are of finding a 1970's single-board machine for that amount these days. > Most of the "barn finds" are likely long-gone) > > cheers > > Jules The only reason you will not find too many 1970's single board computers in the future is because people donate old paintings and such to goodwill, but they scrap old electronics to keep the environment clean. You will hear about people finding Picassos at garage sales and thrift stores forever. Unless their parents hung up the painting with a pricetag their kids will think it is ugly and get rid of it. If you have ever watched Pawn Stars on TV you would know how many things get taken straight to the pawn shop after somebody dies and the attic gets cleaned out, and they are shocked to find that it is actually worth something or has some history to it. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Nov 12 10:40:40 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2010 11:40:40 -0500 Subject: Would You Pay $200,000 for an Original Apple Computer? In-Reply-To: <4CDD6B9B.3090505@gmail.com> References: <4CDD66A9.6040100@west.net> <4CDD6B9B.3090505@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Nov 12, 2010 at 11:30 AM, Jules Richardson wrote: > ($20's probably rather optimistic though - I'm not sure what the chances are > of finding a 1970's single-board machine for that amount these days. Most of > the "barn finds" are likely long-gone) The last cheap SBC I got was a Micro Designs Z-80 Starter Kit (c. 1976) for $10 at a surplus place in Los Angeles about ten years ago. It's gotta be worth $20 by now. ;-) -ethan From IanK at vulcan.com Fri Nov 12 11:48:44 2010 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2010 09:48:44 -0800 Subject: Would You Pay $200,000 for an Original Apple Computer? In-Reply-To: References: <4CDD66A9.6040100@west.net> <4CDD6B9B.3090505@gmail.com> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Ethan Dicks > Sent: Friday, November 12, 2010 8:41 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Would You Pay $200,000 for an Original Apple Computer? > > On Fri, Nov 12, 2010 at 11:30 AM, Jules Richardson > wrote: > > ($20's probably rather optimistic though - I'm not sure what the > chances are > > of finding a 1970's single-board machine for that amount these days. > Most of > > the "barn finds" are likely long-gone) > > The last cheap SBC I got was a Micro Designs Z-80 Starter Kit (c. > 1976) for $10 at a surplus place in Los Angeles about ten years ago. > It's gotta be worth $20 by now. ;-) > I'm still irked with myself for disposing of an Intercept Jr. (with the battery-backed memory expansion) back in the mid-1990s. I hadn't done anything with it since the mid-80s, we were moving, my Spousal Unit was 'helping' me pack.... For my (our) purposes, I am definitely interested in the story of a machine. It is often quite helpful in helping others understand the significance of a particular device ("what would they have ever done with this old thing?"). For instance, our PDP-7 came from the University of Oregon where it ran experiments in their high energy physics lab; over thirty Ph.Ds were earned with research done on that machine. To answer the original question: not likely. :-) But show me an IBM 360 and there's no telling *what* I'd do.... -- Ian From cclist at sydex.com Fri Nov 12 12:43:03 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2010 10:43:03 -0800 Subject: Would You Pay $200,000 for an Original Apple Computer? In-Reply-To: References: <4CDD66A9.6040100@west.net>, <4CDD6B9B.3090505@gmail.com>, Message-ID: <4CDD1A37.29231.80787D@cclist.sydex.com> On 12 Nov 2010 at 11:40, Ethan Dicks wrote: > The last cheap SBC I got was a Micro Designs Z-80 Starter Kit (c. > 1976) for $10 at a surplus place in Los Angeles about ten years ago. > It's gotta be worth $20 by now. ;-) It's not as if no one is making SBCs anymore. The number of various eval and development kits and learning kits is amazing. So I fail to see the intrinsic value of an old one with limited capabilities. Or am I not thinking as a collector would? --Chuck From christian_liendo at yahoo.com Fri Nov 12 13:03:29 2010 From: christian_liendo at yahoo.com (Christian Liendo) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2010 11:03:29 -0800 (PST) Subject: Christies Auction is more than just the Apple I Message-ID: <21599.77386.qm@web113514.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> They are selling more than just the Apple 1 A collection of Alan Turing?s Writings Alan Turing?s Off Prints Lot 60 Sale 7882 The First Published ENIAC Patents ENIAC Patents Lot 63 Sale 7882 An ENIGMA Cypher Machine: ENIAC Patents Lot 59 Sale 7882 A book by Charles Babbage ENIAC Patents Lot 57 Sale 7882 http://8bitaficionado.com/2010/11/12/christies-of-london-is-auctioning-off-a-lot-of-computer-history-items/ From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Nov 12 13:04:40 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2010 14:04:40 -0500 Subject: Would You Pay $200,000 for an Original Apple Computer? In-Reply-To: <4CDD1A37.29231.80787D@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4CDD66A9.6040100@west.net> <4CDD6B9B.3090505@gmail.com> <4CDD1A37.29231.80787D@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Nov 12, 2010 at 1:43 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 12 Nov 2010 at 11:40, Ethan Dicks wrote: > >> The last cheap SBC I got was a Micro Designs Z-80 Starter Kit (c. >> 1976) for $10 at a surplus place in Los Angeles about ten years ago. >> It's gotta be worth $20 by now. ?;-) > > It's not as if no one is making SBCs anymore. ?The number of various > eval and development kits and learning kits is amazing. I completely agree. I've got many - three 1802s (Elf2K, Embedded Elf...), three 6502s (Replica-1, MicroKim...), at least one Z-80 (old P112 kit), etc., and that doesn't count AVR-based products like clocks and Arduino boards and Makerbot electronics. They are all interesting and pretty much each one is cheaper than the kits from the 1970s in the 1970s, but so far, few come in under $50, and none come in at $10-$20, unlike an "obsolete" computer at the bottom of its curve. > So I fail to see the intrinsic value of an old one with limited > capabilities. For me, in some cases, nostalgia (the ones I saw advertised but couldn't afford as a kid, like the Super Elf or the Elf-II), in other cases the aesthetics of 1970s layout and design (hand-taped, curved traces). I can run PDP-8 software via emulation (simh), on a 40-pin microprocessor (IM6120 in my SBC6120) or on "real iron", but I'm still fascinated to do so on a TTL-era (-8/i or -8/L) or transistorized (-8 or -8/S) machine. > Or am I not thinking as a collector would? Dunno about that, but I picked up the Starter Kit because it was interesting (the most striking feature at first inspection was the pair of S-100 slots at the top of the board) not because I expected it to increase in collector value. I've done more research (reading the docs) than experimentation (pushing buttons), but I've still learned something and it's still been entertaining. ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Nov 12 13:14:40 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2010 14:14:40 -0500 Subject: Would You Pay $200,000 for an Original Apple Computer? In-Reply-To: References: <4CDD66A9.6040100@west.net> <4CDD6B9B.3090505@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Nov 12, 2010 at 12:48 PM, Ian King wrote: > I'm still irked with myself for disposing of an Intercept Jr. (with the battery-backed memory expansion) back in the mid-1990s. ?I hadn't done anything with it since the mid-80s, we were moving, my Spousal Unit was 'helping' me pack.... ? Ooh. > For my (our) purposes, I am definitely interested in the story of a machine. ?It is often quite helpful in helping others understand the significance of a particular device ("what would they have ever done with this old thing?"). ?For instance, our PDP-7 came from the University of Oregon where it ran experiments in their high energy physics lab; over thirty Ph.Ds were earned with research done on that machine. For that exact reason, I wish we'd saved some gear from the AMANDA experiment (the Linux-based data collection machines were installed starting in 1998 and decommed a couple of years ago). You could go through the author list on various papers to see how many PhDs that gear facilitated. Tangentally, I have a couple of Intel-chip EISA boxes that are probably only interesting because they were used as transitional servers in the history of CompuServe (long chrome-plated steel enclosures that sat two-side-by-side in a 24" rack, nicknamed "silver bullets") - they were called "32-bit hosts" to distinguish them from the 36-bit DEC and Systems Concepts machines that were in overlapping service at the time. I would loved to have saved any of the 36-bit gear, but circumstances presented me with some 32-bit gear (decommed around 2002), so that's what I have (plus one "trinode" enclosure with three DDV11D backplanes, originally housing a ton of serial gear for the node-to-node network). I don't know if machines of this sort are interesting to most people, but since my involvement with CIS went from a 16-year-old modem user to employee, their stories intertwine with my own. -ethan From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Fri Nov 12 13:23:13 2010 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2010 13:23:13 -0600 Subject: Would You Pay $200,000 for an Original Apple Computer? In-Reply-To: <4CDD1A37.29231.80787D@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4CDD66A9.6040100@west.net>, <4CDD6B9B.3090505@gmail.com>, <4CDD1A37.29231.80787D@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4CDD9421.9020609@gmail.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 12 Nov 2010 at 11:40, Ethan Dicks wrote: > >> The last cheap SBC I got was a Micro Designs Z-80 Starter Kit (c. >> 1976) for $10 at a surplus place in Los Angeles about ten years ago. >> It's gotta be worth $20 by now. ;-) > > It's not as if no one is making SBCs anymore. The number of various > eval and development kits and learning kits is amazing. > > So I fail to see the intrinsic value of an old one with limited > capabilities. > > Or am I not thinking as a collector would? It depends whether you want one to do Real Work, or just to mess around with, I think. On the messing around side of things, I don't really mind whether it's old or new - but I do find an attraction to boards which have separate visible components for different areas of functionality (ROM, RAM, CPU, I/O etc.) just because they feel more like my idea of what a computer should look like, somehow :-) cheers Jules From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Fri Nov 12 13:45:03 2010 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2010 11:45:03 -0800 Subject: Christies Auction is more than just the Apple I In-Reply-To: <21599.77386.qm@web113514.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <21599.77386.qm@web113514.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <220acce153bf14e4bec7e32146a42b97@cs.ubc.ca> On 2010 Nov 12, at 11:03 AM, Christian Liendo wrote: > They are selling more than just the Apple 1 > > A collection of Alan Turing?s Writings > Alan Turing?s Off Prints Lot 60 Sale 7882 The price for the Apple 1 pales in comparison to the estimates for the above item: $484,800 - $808,000 http://www.christies.com/lotfinder/lot_details.aspx? from=salesummary&intObjectID=5370960&sid=5d471a41-553e-4a2d-b9ee- cf27e36133b8 > The First Published ENIAC Patents > ENIAC Patents Lot 63 Sale 7882 > > An ENIGMA Cypher Machine: > ENIAC Patents Lot 59 Sale 7882 > > A book by Charles Babbage > ENIAC Patents Lot 57 Sale 7882 > > http://8bitaficionado.com/2010/11/12/christies-of-london-is- > auctioning-off-a-lot-of-computer-history-items/ From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Fri Nov 12 14:20:24 2010 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2010 15:20:24 -0500 Subject: need teco suggestions In-Reply-To: References: <4CDC4527.2040000@softjar.se> Message-ID: <4CDDA188.9060008@compsys.to> >Richard wrote: >OK, let me rephrase this from another perspective. > >What's the coolest TECO command sequence you can write in 49 characters? > I tested this set of 49 characters in the file: SDATE.TEC by executing the command: MUNG SDATE under RT-11. I don't think this is the "coolest" command I can write, but the 49 character requirement makes any other possibility difficult. The "$" characters are the character. ALL of the "J"s are filler characters that can be removed if you want to count the characters as well at the end of each line. I would have preferred to allow the user to include the current date on the MUNG command line, but this took too many characters. If you feel that the characters do not count, then leave them in if the total character count must be exactly 49 characters. Line 1 has 17 characters Line 2 has 16 characters Line 3 has 16 characters The file follows. Jerome Fine ____________________________________________________________________ ^UDDATE 31-DEC-99 $JGDEWSDATE.COM$ ECJJJJJEGSDATE$$ In addition, removing the SIX "J" characters and substituting "ITECO$" will also do nothing. ^UDDATE 31-DEC-99 $GDEWSDATE.COM$ ECITECO$EGSDATE$$ ____________________________________________________________________ From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Fri Nov 12 14:50:16 2010 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2010 15:50:16 -0500 Subject: need teco suggestions In-Reply-To: <4CDDA188.9060008@compsys.to> References: <4CDC4527.2040000@softjar.se> <4CDDA188.9060008@compsys.to> Message-ID: <4CDDA888.3080209@compsys.to> First, I left out the "@" character immediately after the EG command on the last line. The result is to use the RT-11 command: DATE 1-DEC-99 in order to keep the character count the same. I corrected the contents of the 49 characters to reflect the missing "@" character in the two alternatives at the end of this e-mail. Since the number of characters in the file name, "SDATE.COM", can also be adjusted, the total number of characters can easily be reduced by 6 if the file name "D.COM" is used instead. It might be helpful to know that the 49 characters may also be typed in after the command: RUN TECO The result of executing the 49 characters is to produce the file SDATE.COM which contains the RT-11 command: DATE 1-DEC-99 The final TECO command, "EG at SDATE$$", then executes "SDATE.COM" as a command file and sets the date to: 1-Dec-1999. >Jerome H. Fine wrote: > >Richard wrote: > >> OK, let me rephrase this from another perspective. >> >> What's the coolest TECO command sequence you can write in 49 characters? >> > I tested this set of 49 characters in the file: SDATE.TEC by > executing the command: > MUNG SDATE > under RT-11. I don't think this is the "coolest" command I can write, > but the 49 character > requirement makes any other possibility difficult. > > The "$" characters are the character. > ALL of the "J"s are filler characters that can be removed if you want > to count the > characters as well at the end of each line. > > I would have preferred to allow the user to include the current date > on the MUNG > command line, but this took too many characters. > > If you feel that the characters do not count, then leave them > in if the total > character count must be exactly 49 characters. > > Line 1 has 16 characters > Line 2 has 16 characters > Line 3 has 17 characters > > The file follows. > > Jerome Fine > ____________________________________________________________________ > > ^UDDATE 1-DEC-99 > $JGDEWSDATE.COM$ > ECJJJJJEG at SDATE$$ > > In addition, removing the SIX "J" characters and substituting "ITECO$" > will also do nothing. > > ^UDDATE 1-DEC-99 > $GDEWSDATE.COM$ > ECITECO$EG at SDATE$$ > > ____________________________________________________________________ From hachti at hachti.de Fri Nov 12 15:07:11 2010 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2010 22:07:11 +0100 Subject: Punched cards - which paper/cardboard? Message-ID: <4CDDAC7F.8080209@hachti.de> Hi everyone, I'm thinking about making punched cards. I could need some information about the material used for them. Precise information about tolerances, specifications, references to more information, and so on would be quite helpful. Best wishes, Philipp -- http://www.hachti.de From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Nov 12 15:28:24 2010 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2010 13:28:24 -0800 Subject: Punched cards - which paper/cardboard? In-Reply-To: <4CDDAC7F.8080209@hachti.de> References: <4CDDAC7F.8080209@hachti.de> Message-ID: <4CDDB178.2020303@bitsavers.org> On 11/12/10 1:07 PM, Philipp Hachtmann wrote: > Hi everyone, > > I'm thinking about making punched cards. http://www.ibm-1401.info/CardStockSpecifications.html you can still buy punched cards http://cardamation.com/punchcardmedia.html -- what about fan-fold paper tape? From legalize at xmission.com Fri Nov 12 15:34:39 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2010 14:34:39 -0700 Subject: Would You Pay $200,000 for an Original Apple Computer? In-Reply-To: <55B07822608344D4A3A44CAAEF0A5931@dell8300> References: <4CDD66A9.6040100@west.net> <55B07822608344D4A3A44CAAEF0A5931@dell8300> Message-ID: In article <55B07822608344D4A3A44CAAEF0A5931 at dell8300>, "Teo Zenios" writes: > Heck I would be pissed to find I sunk even $20K > into my collection over the last 10 years. Over a period of 10 years, its not hard to sink $20K into shipping fees alone when you collect stuff that needs to be shipped freight. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From teoz at neo.rr.com Fri Nov 12 15:47:51 2010 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2010 16:47:51 -0500 Subject: Would You Pay $200,000 for an Original Apple Computer? References: <4CDD66A9.6040100@west.net><55B07822608344D4A3A44CAAEF0A5931@dell8300> Message-ID: <5F1039E4D63A4D35AF18E0EDE1AC718B@dell8300> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Richard" To: "cctalk" Sent: Friday, November 12, 2010 4:34 PM Subject: Re: Would You Pay $200,000 for an Original Apple Computer? > > In article <55B07822608344D4A3A44CAAEF0A5931 at dell8300>, > "Teo Zenios" writes: > >> Heck I would be pissed to find I sunk even $20K >> into my collection over the last 10 years. > > Over a period of 10 years, its not hard to sink $20K into shipping > fees alone when you collect stuff that needs to be shipped freight. > -- > "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download > > Sure if you collect large machines and have them shipped cross country. Most of the heavy items I have are local pickups, or I would not have bothered. There are not that many things I would shell out $100+ just for shipping. I try not to spend more then $100 a month, sometimes I go over if I find a great deal I can't pass up. Some months there just isn't that much out there. The bulk of my ebay purchases are things like software, cards, cables, cpu upgrades etc so shipping is not that bad. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Nov 12 16:04:59 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2010 17:04:59 -0500 Subject: Collection transport costs (was Re: Would You Pay $200,000 for an Original Apple Computer?) Message-ID: On Fri, Nov 12, 2010 at 4:47 PM, Teo Zenios wrote: >> Over a period of 10 years, its not hard to sink $20K into shipping >> fees alone when you collect stuff that needs to be shipped freight. > > Sure if you collect large machines and have them shipped cross country. Most > of the heavy items I have are local pickups... Nearly all of my heavy DEC stuff came from The Ohio State University or businesses around Columbus. I did drive to Dayton once for an 11/750, but I've gotten no item larger than an RL01 or PDP-8/a or VT-52 from out of state. There was the time I ordered an LA-180, but I used a "free shipping on your next order" from Newman Computer Exchange to order that - it came strapped down to a pallet via van freight from MI, right to my front door. I did use it for consulting work later (on a locally-sourced 11/23), but at the time, I picked the heaviest thing for my PDP-8/a that I thought I'd be likely to want. So I've spent a few hundred on renting lift-gate trucks and such over the past thirty years, but even a double-H960 PDP-11/34 setup w/drives and software and docs fit in the back of my 1976 Microbus with room up front for a passenger/loadie. I'm sure someone who collects IBM iron has an entirely different story to tell. -ethan From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Nov 12 15:42:55 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2010 21:42:55 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Would You Pay $200,000 for an Original Apple Computer? In-Reply-To: <4CDD6B9B.3090505@gmail.com> from "Jules Richardson" at Nov 12, 10 10:30:19 am Message-ID: > > Marvin Johnston wrote: > > I saw this article about a Christie's auction and found it "funny" in a > > way. It will be interesting to find out what it actually brings. > > I might go as far as $20. :-) I like machines to be interesting, but don't > care so much about what they were used for or their place in history[1] - and > if I wanted to mess around with hardware of the A1's spec, there are surely > far cheaper ways of doing it. I am with you on this. As I mentioned a few weeks back, I see nothing special in a stock just because it was used for some famous purpose or by some famous person. I find beauty in well-desinged and interesting hardware. There are many machines I would find much more interesting than an Apple 1. In fact it's hard to think of many machines I'd find less interesting... > ($20's probably rather optimistic though - I'm not sure what the chances are > of finding a 1970's single-board machine for that amount these days. Most of > the "barn finds" are likely long-gone) Alas yes. Fortunately I've got enough machines to keep me occupied for a goodfew years, beacuase at current prices there's no way I'll be adding to the collection. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Nov 12 15:50:45 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2010 21:50:45 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Would You Pay $200,000 for an Original Apple Computer? In-Reply-To: <4CDD1A37.29231.80787D@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Nov 12, 10 10:43:03 am Message-ID: > > On 12 Nov 2010 at 11:40, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > > The last cheap SBC I got was a Micro Designs Z-80 Starter Kit (c. > > 1976) for $10 at a surplus place in Los Angeles about ten years ago. > > It's gotta be worth $20 by now. ;-) > > It's not as if no one is making SBCs anymore. The number of various > eval and development kits and learning kits is amazing. I think i've mentioned this before, but you can still buy a new single-board computer kit with a hex keypad and switch/light panel. It's sold by Elenco (http://www.elenco.com/), and you can downlaod the manual from their web site. From what I remember, it's an 8085 CPU + 8155 RAM/IO and 2816 E2PROM. Yes, you have to solder it together. You get to toggle the monitor program into the E2PROM from the switches, at which point you can use the hex keypad and display linked up to the 8155. It's not that expensive (I think I've seen it on other web sites for around $100). > > So I fail to see the intrinsic value of an old one with limited > capabilities. Thake that to extremes, and you start thinking 'A modern PC can do everything this old can do and more, so why bother with classic computers at all' :-). Although actually in my case that's not true. The classic cna do one thing that no modern PC can do. It can keep me entertained for hours while I bring it back to life. So I guess that if somebody gave me an Apple 1, I'd get it going. I'd investigatge it. I might evne try to use it for something. But sure as anything, I'd not keep it pristine as an investment. > > Or am I not thinking as a collector would? I know I am not a collector. -tony From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Fri Nov 12 16:21:12 2010 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2010 16:21:12 -0600 Subject: Collection transport costs (was Re: Would You Pay $200,000 for an Original Apple Computer?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CDDBDD8.8090901@gmail.com> Ethan Dicks wrote: > So I've spent a few hundred on renting lift-gate trucks and such over > the past thirty years, but even a double-H960 PDP-11/34 setup w/drives > and software and docs fit in the back of my 1976 Microbus with room up > front for a passenger/loadie. Well, all the stuff I've collected personally has been small enough to fit in a car - but it was all done with UK fuel prices. I bet I've spent around $5000 on transport costs. I bet I'm going to double that next year in freight costs when I move the collection over to the US, too :-( cheers Jules From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Nov 12 16:24:26 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2010 22:24:26 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Would You Pay $200,000 for an Original Apple Computer? In-Reply-To: <5F1039E4D63A4D35AF18E0EDE1AC718B@dell8300> from "Teo Zenios" at Nov 12, 10 04:47:51 pm Message-ID: > >> Heck I would be pissed to find I sunk even $20K > >> into my collection over the last 10 years. > > > > Over a period of 10 years, its not hard to sink $20K into shipping > > fees alone when you collect stuff that needs to be shipped freight. > > -- > > "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download > > > > > Sure if you collect large machines and have them shipped cross country. Most The thing is, though, you collect what you are interested in. It's eqasy to say that you'd ahve fewer shipping and storage problems if you collected pocket computers rather than minicomputers, but personally I find the latter more interesting. Since i 'collect' to use and enjoy the machines rather than as an ivensment, it does matter what I buy. > of the heavy items I have are local pickups, or I would not have bothered. > There are not that many things I would shell out $100+ just for shipping. Unfortunately there have been many things that I've had to pay rather more than that to have shipped. Having a few PCBs shipped across from the States can easily cost $50 [1], a complete unit will often cost getting on for $100. I have, alas, not bid on things because I can't afford the shipping, though. [1] I am being reasonable about this. The postage charge alone can be getting on for that figure, and I don't object to paying a sensible amount for packing materials and the seller's time. For example, I bouth an electronic test/measurement isntrument recently on E-bay. The seller chaarged $110 or thereabouts for shipping. Since the postable lebel said $97.xx, and it came properly packed, I regard that as entirely reasonable. But the sellers who tell me it will cost $150 to have a fairly thin service manual posted to me are not being reasonable. > > I try not to spend more then $100 a month, sometimes I go over if I find a > great deal I can't pass up. Some months there just isn't that much out > there. The bulk of my ebay purchases are things like software, cards, > cables, cpu upgrades etc so shipping is not that bad. It gets worsw when you buy from another continent :-). The provlem is that parts for the mcahines I am interested in don't seem to exist in Europe... -tony From IanK at vulcan.com Fri Nov 12 16:21:59 2010 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2010 14:21:59 -0800 Subject: Collection transport costs (was Re: Would You Pay $200,000 for an Original Apple Computer?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Ethan Dicks > Sent: Friday, November 12, 2010 2:05 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Collection transport costs (was Re: Would You Pay $200,000 for > an Original Apple Computer?) > > On Fri, Nov 12, 2010 at 4:47 PM, Teo Zenios wrote: > >> Over a period of 10 years, its not hard to sink $20K into shipping > >> fees alone when you collect stuff that needs to be shipped freight. > > > > Sure if you collect large machines and have them shipped cross > country. Most > > of the heavy items I have are local pickups... > > Nearly all of my heavy DEC stuff came from The Ohio State University > or businesses around Columbus. I did drive to Dayton once for an > 11/750, but I've gotten no item larger than an RL01 or PDP-8/a or > VT-52 from out of state. There was the time I ordered an LA-180, but > I used a "free shipping on your next order" from Newman Computer > Exchange to order that - it came strapped down to a pallet via van > freight from MI, right to my front door. I did use it for consulting > work later (on a locally-sourced 11/23), but at the time, I picked the > heaviest thing for my PDP-8/a that I thought I'd be likely to want. > > So I've spent a few hundred on renting lift-gate trucks and such over > the past thirty years, but even a double-H960 PDP-11/34 setup w/drives > and software and docs fit in the back of my 1976 Microbus with room up > front for a passenger/loadie. I had wanted a Mercedes-Benz 450SL for years, and I came across one in very nice condition so I bought it. Then I realized that the SL is possibly the most impractical car ever built. It's a two-seat roadster (my family of 3 won't fit in it) with a trunk big enough for one, perhaps two sets of golf clubs. I bought a PDP-11/20 from another collector and we met to exchange money and goods. He had crated the machine beautifully, but the crate wouldn't fit in the trunk of the SL. We uncrated it - as rain began to fall! - and it just barely fit. (Otherwise it was going in the passenger seat, damn the upholstery.) I've purchased a Ford F-150 with a full-size bed, and the Mercedes is for sale.... -- Ian > > I'm sure someone who collects IBM iron has an entirely different story > to tell. > > -ethan From legalize at xmission.com Fri Nov 12 16:23:17 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2010 15:23:17 -0700 Subject: Would You Pay $200,000 for an Original Apple Computer? In-Reply-To: <5F1039E4D63A4D35AF18E0EDE1AC718B@dell8300> References: <4CDD66A9.6040100@west.net><55B07822608344D4A3A44CAAEF0A5931@dell8300> <5F1039E4D63A4D35AF18E0EDE1AC718B@dell8300> Message-ID: In article <5F1039E4D63A4D35AF18E0EDE1AC718B at dell8300>, "Teo Zenios" writes: > I try not to spend more then $100 a month [...] That's still $1200/yr or $12,000 for 10 years. More than half way from your $20K over 10 years. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Fri Nov 12 16:26:59 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2010 15:26:59 -0700 Subject: Collection transport costs (was Re: Would You Pay $200, 000 for an Original Apple Computer?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In article , Ethan Dicks writes: > Nearly all of my heavy DEC stuff came from The Ohio State University > or businesses around Columbus. [...] Once again, I remind list members that not everyone lives next door to a vintage bonanza. If I hear one more story about some guy who lives next to DEC in MA talking about how VT100s aren't worth any money because he used to trip over them on curb every week 10 years ago, I'm going postal. There ain't diddly in Salt Lake City for vintage gear, really. Well, there's one grumpy Tektronix dealer who charges outrageous prices and then after six months still hasn't shipped you the stuff you paid for. There's University of Utah surplus, but they have better bargains on charis than they do on computers. That means UPS and freight shipping are what it takes to amass a collection unless you're only interested in 2yr. old IBM-PC compatible gear. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From teoz at neo.rr.com Fri Nov 12 16:38:48 2010 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2010 17:38:48 -0500 Subject: Would You Pay $200,000 for an Original Apple Computer? References: <4CDD66A9.6040100@west.net><55B07822608344D4A3A44CAAEF0A5931@dell8300><5F1039E4D63A4D35AF18E0EDE1AC718B@dell8300> Message-ID: <65C7A39DB1F34591BFA012729E417248@dell8300> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Richard" To: "cctalk" Sent: Friday, November 12, 2010 5:23 PM Subject: Re: Would You Pay $200,000 for an Original Apple Computer? > > In article <5F1039E4D63A4D35AF18E0EDE1AC718B at dell8300>, > "Teo Zenios" writes: > >> I try not to spend more then $100 a month [...] > > That's still $1200/yr or $12,000 for 10 years. More than half way > from your $20K over 10 years. > -- Yes it is, I collect too much stuff. From hachti at hachti.de Fri Nov 12 16:35:01 2010 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2010 23:35:01 +0100 Subject: Punched cards - which paper/cardboard? In-Reply-To: <4CDDB178.2020303@bitsavers.org> References: <4CDDAC7F.8080209@hachti.de> <4CDDB178.2020303@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4CDDC115.9060001@hachti.de> Hi Al, On 12.11.2010 22:28, Al Kossow wrote: > On 11/12/10 1:07 PM, Philipp Hachtmann wrote: >> Hi everyone, >> >> I'm thinking about making punched cards. > > http://www.ibm-1401.info/CardStockSpecifications.html Oh, crazy! > you can still buy punched cards > http://cardamation.com/punchcardmedia.html Sure.. I'm thinking about making custom printed punch cards for small profit. Still missing are round corners and the right resp. nicely suited paper. > what about fan-fold paper tape? I made a "machine" that is able to fanfold paper tape. Yes, but.... currently only something like a proof of concept. It worked too unprecisely by far. It needs to be reconstructed using precision components instead of a mixture of pneumatics, a stepper motor, and handcrafted wooden parts :-) Kind regards, Philipp -- http://www.hachti.de From evan at snarc.net Fri Nov 12 16:48:10 2010 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2010 17:48:10 -0500 Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re=3A_Christies_of_london_to_auction_?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?apple_1_for_=A3150=2C000?= In-Reply-To: <458344.44478.qm@web113513.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <458344.44478.qm@web113513.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4CDDC42A.3020904@snarc.net> > http://8bitaficionado.com/2010/11/12/christies-of-london-to-auction-apple-1-for-241000-00 I sent a very polite email to the appropriate contact at Christies. I cc'd Dag Spicer (a curator at the CHM) and Sellam. I explained the going rates for an Apple 1 like this, and I inquired how they priced it so high. I'll let the list know what they say in response. From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Nov 12 16:54:34 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2010 17:54:34 -0500 Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re=3A_Christies_of_london_to_auction_apple_1_for_=A3150?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=2C000?= In-Reply-To: <4CDDC42A.3020904@snarc.net> References: <458344.44478.qm@web113513.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4CDDC42A.3020904@snarc.net> Message-ID: > I sent a very polite email to the appropriate contact at Christies. ?I cc'd > Dag Spicer (a curator at the CHM) and Sellam. ?I explained the going rates > for an Apple 1 like this, and I inquired how they priced it so high. You have no clue about the people you are dealing with. Real money here, not dot.com money. Christies and Sothebys are different universes. -- Will From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Fri Nov 12 17:02:46 2010 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2010 17:02:46 -0600 Subject: Collection transport costs (was Re: Would You Pay $200,000 for an Original Apple Computer?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CDDC796.1060904@gmail.com> Ian King wrote: >> So I've spent a few hundred on renting lift-gate trucks and such over the >> past thirty years, but even a double-H960 PDP-11/34 setup w/drives and >> software and docs fit in the back of my 1976 Microbus with room up front >> for a passenger/loadie. > > I had wanted a Mercedes-Benz 450SL for years, and I came across one in very > nice condition so I bought it. Then I realized that the SL is possibly the > most impractical car ever built. It's a two-seat roadster (my family of 3 > won't fit in it) with a trunk big enough for one, perhaps two sets of golf > clubs. Nice. I did the same with a pair of Triumphs - neither big enough to be a tourer or really small enough to be a sports car, and the same issue with the trunk (although at least they were four-seaters, just). More inherent design problems than you could shake a stick at, too - but I regret not having them still :-( > I've purchased a Ford F-150 with a full-size bed, and the Mercedes is for > sale.... -- Ian I used common sense this time around and bought a 1960's Ford truck with an 8' load bed ;-) cheers Jules From chd at chdickman.com Fri Nov 12 17:01:09 2010 From: chd at chdickman.com (Charles Dickman) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2010 18:01:09 -0500 Subject: Paper tape fan-folder Was: Re: Punched cards - which paper/cardboard? Message-ID: On Fri, Nov 12, 2010 at 5:35 PM, Philipp Hachtmann wrote: >> what about fan-fold paper tape? > > I made a "machine" that is able to fanfold paper tape. Yes, but.... > currently only something like a > proof of concept. It worked too unprecisely by far. It needs to be > reconstructed using precision components instead of a mixture of pneumatics, > a stepper motor, and handcrafted wooden parts :-) I was thinking about trying to make one myself. I have a case of rolled paper tape. Any chance you could share a picture or two? The other thought I had was to shear fan-fold printer paper into narrow strips, but the paper shear I have access to is not sufficiently precise to get a consistent tape width. -chuck From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Nov 12 17:01:23 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2010 18:01:23 -0500 Subject: Punched cards - which paper/cardboard? In-Reply-To: <4CDDC115.9060001@hachti.de> References: <4CDDAC7F.8080209@hachti.de> <4CDDB178.2020303@bitsavers.org> <4CDDC115.9060001@hachti.de> Message-ID: > I made a "machine" that is able to fanfold paper tape. Yes, but.... > currently only something like a > proof of concept. It worked too unprecisely by far. It needs to be > reconstructed using precision components instead of a mixture of pneumatics, > a stepper motor, and handcrafted wooden parts :-) You know that they make paper folding machines, right? -- Will From pontus at Update.UU.SE Fri Nov 12 17:09:27 2010 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2010 00:09:27 +0100 Subject: Making Magnetic tape Message-ID: <20101112230927.GA11112@Update.UU.SE> Hi Speakin of making punch cards and paper tape. What would it take to make DECtape? A roll of adhesive tape and rust? /P From chd at chdickman.com Fri Nov 12 17:26:02 2010 From: chd at chdickman.com (Charles Dickman) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2010 18:26:02 -0500 Subject: Punched cards - which paper/cardboard? In-Reply-To: References: <4CDDAC7F.8080209@hachti.de> <4CDDB178.2020303@bitsavers.org> <4CDDC115.9060001@hachti.de> Message-ID: On Fri, Nov 12, 2010 at 6:01 PM, William Donzelli wrote: > You know that they make paper folding machines, right? > A fan-folder for continuous roll paper and not just for single sheets? -chuck From evan at snarc.net Fri Nov 12 17:27:53 2010 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2010 18:27:53 -0500 Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re=3A_Christies_of_london_to_auction_?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?apple_1_for_=A3150=2C000?= In-Reply-To: References: <458344.44478.qm@web113513.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4CDDC42A.3020904@snarc.net> Message-ID: <4CDDCD79.9090302@snarc.net> >> I sent a very polite email to the appropriate contact at Christies. I cc'd Dag Spicer (a curator at the CHM) and Sellam. I explained the going rates for an Apple 1 like this, and I inquired how they priced it so high. > You have no clue about the people you are dealing with. Is there an emoticon for "rolls eyes"...? I know who/what I'm dealing with. Don't insult me. From evan at snarc.net Fri Nov 12 17:31:22 2010 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2010 18:31:22 -0500 Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re=3A_Christies_of_london_to_auction_?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?apple_1_for_=A3150=2C000?= In-Reply-To: References: <458344.44478.qm@web113513.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4CDDC42A.3020904@snarc.net> Message-ID: <4CDDCE4A.9050401@snarc.net> >> I sent a very polite email to the appropriate contact at Christies. I cc'd Dag Spicer (a curator at the CHM) and Sellam. I explained the going rates for an Apple 1 like this, and I inquired how they priced it so high. > You have no clue about the people you are dealing with. Real money here, not dot.com money. Christies and Sothebys are different universes. PS - I forgot that Will is the 19th son of an English lord, and that he lives on a manor estate, so clearly HE knows better than the rest of us. From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Nov 12 17:33:12 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2010 18:33:12 -0500 Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re=3A_Christies_of_london_to_auction_apple_1_for_=A3150?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=2C000?= In-Reply-To: <4CDDCD79.9090302@snarc.net> References: <458344.44478.qm@web113513.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4CDDC42A.3020904@snarc.net> <4CDDCD79.9090302@snarc.net> Message-ID: > I know who/what I'm dealing with. Some of us have wildly different opinions. -- Will From lance.w.lyon at gmail.com Fri Nov 12 17:38:49 2010 From: lance.w.lyon at gmail.com (Lance Lyon) Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2010 10:38:49 +1100 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?RE:_Christies_of_london_to_auction_apple_1_for_=A3150=2C000?= In-Reply-To: <4CDDCE4A.9050401@snarc.net> References: <458344.44478.qm@web113513.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4CDDC42A.3020904@snarc.net> <4CDDCE4A.9050401@snarc.net> Message-ID: <4cddd00b.c78de50a.118e.ffff9a99@mx.google.com> -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Evan Koblentz Sent: Saturday, 13 November 2010 10:31 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Christies of london to auction apple 1 for ?150,000 >> I sent a very polite email to the appropriate contact at Christies. I cc'd Dag Spicer (a curator at the CHM) and Sellam. I explained the going rates for an Apple 1 like this, and I inquired how they priced it so high. > You have no clue about the people you are dealing with. Real money here, not dot.com money. Christies and Sothebys are different universes. > PS - I forgot that Will is the 19th son of an English lord, and that he > lives on a manor estate, so clearly HE knows better than the rest of us. It'll go for what it goes for - if a collector is willing to pay that price for it, then that's what the market price is. I find it amazing that so many people on this list constantly denigrate others because they can't/won't accept market forces and believe that every classic computer item should sell for peanuts because that's all they'd pay. Unfortunately, the real world doesn't work like that. I sell some stuff through eBay and other (rarer) items through an auction house myself - the auction house ALWAYS gets a higher price because the serious collectors are willing to pay more than the hobbyist market. Personally, I'd rather see my rare items going to a collector than a hobbyist - at least even if it's stored away I know it's going to be around in 20, 50, 100 years instead of at the whims of a single person who may not be able to guarantee its longevity. Now I'll wait to get flamed for suggesting that serious, private collectors are a better option for some equipment than hobbyists..... Cheers, Lance http://www.commodore128.org From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Nov 12 17:39:59 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2010 18:39:59 -0500 Subject: Punched cards - which paper/cardboard? In-Reply-To: References: <4CDDAC7F.8080209@hachti.de> <4CDDB178.2020303@bitsavers.org> <4CDDC115.9060001@hachti.de> Message-ID: > A fan-folder for continuous roll paper and not just for single sheets? Yes, they can be extremely flexible.2 folds, 3 folds, 4 folds, fanfold, letterfold, you name it. -- Will From evan at snarc.net Fri Nov 12 17:47:00 2010 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2010 18:47:00 -0500 Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re=3A_Christies_of_london_to_auction_?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?apple_1_for_=A3150=2C000?= In-Reply-To: <4cddd00b.c78de50a.118e.ffff9a99@mx.google.com> References: <458344.44478.qm@web113513.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4CDDC42A.3020904@snarc.net> <4CDDCE4A.9050401@snarc.net> <4cddd00b.c78de50a.118e.ffff9a99@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <4CDDD1F4.4080006@snarc.net> > It'll go for what it goes for - if a collector is willing to pay that price for it, then that's what the market price is. I find it amazing that so many people on this list constantly denigrate others because they can't/won't accept market forces and believe that every classic computer item should sell for peanuts because that's all they'd pay. Hold on. I'm NOT one of those people. I'm trying to HELP the auction company and their buyers. > Unfortunately, the real world doesn't work like that. Thank you for educating me about the "real world" .... clearly you who know better. (Again, what's the symbol for rolls eyes?) > auction house ALWAYS gets a higher price because the serious collectors are willing to pay more than the hobbyist market. Of course. But $160,000 as the STARTING bid for something that typically sells for less than $25,000? > Now I'll wait to get flamed for suggesting that serious, private collectors are a better option for some equipment than hobbyists..... I'm not suggesting that one way or the other. From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Nov 12 17:47:07 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2010 18:47:07 -0500 Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re=3A_Christies_of_london_to_auction_apple_1_for_=A3150?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=2C000?= In-Reply-To: <4cddd00b.c78de50a.118e.ffff9a99@mx.google.com> References: <458344.44478.qm@web113513.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4CDDC42A.3020904@snarc.net> <4CDDCE4A.9050401@snarc.net> <4cddd00b.c78de50a.118e.ffff9a99@mx.google.com> Message-ID: > Personally, I'd rather see my rare items going to a collector than a > hobbyist - at least even if it's stored away I know it's going to be around > in 20, 50, 100 years instead of at the whims of a single person who may not > be able to guarantee its longevity. Once something goes through Sothebys or Christies, it is (almost) immortal. The value of the provenance is very high - something that almost no private sale or Ebay can match. That has value. LOTS of value. -- Will From cclist at sydex.com Fri Nov 12 17:52:59 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2010 15:52:59 -0800 Subject: Would You Pay $200,000 for an Original Apple Computer? In-Reply-To: References: <4CDD1A37.29231.80787D@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Nov 12, 10 10:43:03 am, Message-ID: <4CDD62DB.16025.19D5182@cclist.sydex.com> On 12 Nov 2010 at 21:50, Tony Duell wrote: > It's sold by Elenco (http://www.elenco.com/), and you can downlaod the > manual from their web site. From what I remember, it's an 8085 CPU + > 8155 RAM/IO and 2816 E2PROM. Yes, you have to solder it together. You > get to toggle the monitor program into the E2PROM from the switches, > at which point you can use the hex keypad and display linked up to the > 8155. There are also Z80 trainers with the keypad and display and reasonable external interfaces. One in particular, comes in a nice wood case. I suspect it's probably made in the Far East, but a couple of vendors in the US sell it, Global Specialites and Unisource: http://bit.ly/cp77Hx About USD$500 with software. ETT Thailand offers not only Z80 boards, but Z180 ones. And there's always Rabbit, but I like my Z80s with complete instruction sets. --Chuck From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Nov 12 17:54:34 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2010 18:54:34 -0500 Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re=3A_Christies_of_london_to_auction_apple_1_for_=A3150?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=2C000?= In-Reply-To: <4CDDD1F4.4080006@snarc.net> References: <458344.44478.qm@web113513.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4CDDC42A.3020904@snarc.net> <4CDDCE4A.9050401@snarc.net> <4cddd00b.c78de50a.118e.ffff9a99@mx.google.com> <4CDDD1F4.4080006@snarc.net> Message-ID: > Of course. ?But $160,000 as the STARTING bid for something that typically > sells for less than $25,000? An estimate and a starting bid are not the same things. A reserve is a different thing as well. -- Will From chd at chdickman.com Fri Nov 12 17:58:22 2010 From: chd at chdickman.com (Charles Dickman) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2010 18:58:22 -0500 Subject: Making Magnetic tape In-Reply-To: <20101112230927.GA11112@Update.UU.SE> References: <20101112230927.GA11112@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: On Fri, Nov 12, 2010 at 6:09 PM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > Hi > > Speakin of making punch cards and paper tape. What would it take to make > DECtape? > > A roll of adhesive tape and rust? > > /P > I remembered a comment on a list from some time past that 3M could still make it if we ordered enough. I found the post on the archive of alt.sys.pdp8. It is short on information, and probably apocryphal, but the original questioner is of interest. A posting to alt.sys.pdp8 from November, 1998: >From article , by "Jay West" > Does anyone have some spare media for TU56 dectape? Yes. I have perhaps a hundred reels of "Astrotape", an OEM version of DECtape. One reel has been tested by Cam Farnell in Glenburnie, ON; he has a working LAB 8/E with DECtape drive, and he said that it was written in a strange (Astrotape, no doubt) format, but that after formatting as a standard PDP-8 tape, it checked out as good. I haven't got any of my own drives working yet. > Or, does anyone know if this can be ordered from somewhere still today? No, it can't be had, unless we can get a large group together to make a bulk order. 3M once said that they could make new DECtape anytime someone wanted to order in sufficiently large quantities, but we're talking in terms of big quantities, enough to justify a production run. One noteworthy thing about DECtape: It's double-faced sandwich construction. That is, there is plastic on both sides of the oxide layer. As a result, the oxide layer isn't exposed to air, where the binder can oxidize and let it flake off. Old DECtapes should therefore, be very useful except when they've been damaged by reading on poorly adjusted tape drives. The usual mechanism of DECtape failure is wrinkling due to poorly adjusted guides on the tape drive. Typically, the front edge gets stretched and wrinkled, and when it is wrinkled enough, the tape won't stay in alignment through the drive. Doug Jones From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Nov 12 18:00:11 2010 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2010 18:00:11 -0600 Subject: Christies of london to auction apple 1 for £150 ,000 In-Reply-To: References: <458344.44478.qm@web113513.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4CDDC42A.3020904@snarc.net> Message-ID: <201011130000.oAD00Vu4051640@billY.EZWIND.NET> At 04:54 PM 11/12/2010, William Donzelli wrote: >You have no clue about the people you are dealing with. I'm sure they're regular folks who have their pants put on two legs at a time, just like the rest of us. - John From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Nov 12 18:06:11 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2010 19:06:11 -0500 Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re=3A_Christies_of_london_to_auction_apple_1_for_=A3150?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?_=2C000?= In-Reply-To: <201011130000.oAD00Vu4051640@billY.EZWIND.NET> References: <458344.44478.qm@web113513.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4CDDC42A.3020904@snarc.net> <201011130000.oAD00Vu4051640@billY.EZWIND.NET> Message-ID: > I'm sure they're regular folks who have their pants put on two legs at > a time, just like the rest of us. Well, some of them think they crap cubes of marble. Many of them (and yes, I have some of these people as customers) are very decent regular people that can drop $200K at the drop of a hat. -- Will From rivie at ridgenet.net Fri Nov 12 18:43:23 2010 From: rivie at ridgenet.net (Roger Ivie) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2010 16:43:23 -0800 (PST) Subject: Making Magnetic tape In-Reply-To: <20101112230927.GA11112@Update.UU.SE> References: <20101112230927.GA11112@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: On Sat, 13 Nov 2010, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > > A roll of adhesive tape and rust? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YFRkhUMYiaY "Stickytape and Rust" from The Secret Life of Machines -- roger ivie rivie at ridgenet.net From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Nov 12 18:45:26 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2010 16:45:26 -0800 (PST) Subject: Would You Pay $200,000 for an Original Apple Computer? In-Reply-To: <4CDD1A37.29231.80787D@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4CDD66A9.6040100@west.net>, <4CDD6B9B.3090505@gmail.com>, <4CDD1A37.29231.80787D@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20101112164405.G922@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 12 Nov 2010, Chuck Guzis wrote: > So I fail to see the intrinsic value of an old one with limited > capabilities. Won't Apple give you a trade-in discount towards a new one, and then do the crushing for you? From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Fri Nov 12 18:58:49 2010 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2010 18:58:49 -0600 Subject: Would You Pay $200,000 for an Original Apple Computer? In-Reply-To: <20101112164405.G922@shell.lmi.net> References: <4CDD66A9.6040100@west.net>, <4CDD6B9B.3090505@gmail.com>, <4CDD1A37.29231.80787D@cclist.sydex.com> <20101112164405.G922@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4CDDE2C9.8030900@gmail.com> Fred Cisin wrote: > On Fri, 12 Nov 2010, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> So I fail to see the intrinsic value of an old one with limited >> capabilities. > > Won't Apple give you a trade-in discount towards a new one, and then do > the crushing for you? Aren't they supposed to bury it in a hole or something? Or is that too environmentally-unfriendly these days? From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Nov 12 19:05:59 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2010 17:05:59 -0800 (PST) Subject: Would You Pay $200,000 for an Original Apple Computer? In-Reply-To: <4CDDE2C9.8030900@gmail.com> References: <4CDD66A9.6040100@west.net>, <4CDD6B9B.3090505@gmail.com>, <4CDD1A37.29231.80787D@cclist.sydex.com> <20101112164405.G922@shell.lmi.net> <4CDDE2C9.8030900@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20101112170415.N922@shell.lmi.net> > >> So I fail to see the intrinsic value of an old one with limited > >> capabilities. > > > > Won't Apple give you a trade-in discount towards a new one, and then do > > the crushing for you? > > Aren't they supposed to bury it in a hole or something? Or is that too > environmentally-unfriendly these days? The sockets weren't even gold-plated! From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Fri Nov 12 15:15:21 2010 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2010 16:15:21 -0500 Subject: need teco suggestions In-Reply-To: References: <4CDC4527.2040000@softjar.se> Message-ID: <4CDDAE69.5050402@compsys.to> >Richard wrote: >>In article Richard writes: > >>What's the coolest TECO command sequence you can write in 49 characters? >> >Additional: control characters like ^B (ASCII 2) count as 2 characters >for the purposes of counting towards the limit of 49. > This file (DATE.TEC) was tested under RT-11 as: MUNG DATE,31-DEC-99 Of course, since the actual RT-11 command is only: DATE 31-DEC-99 using this "MUNG" version is useful only if it is important to keep a record of what date was entered. Still not very cool, but a bit better since any valid date can be used. ALSO, the letters "TECO" appear in the 49 characters which are an essential portion of the command sequence, being the name of the file that is used, although ANY other 4 characters (other than TECO) can be used instead. The 2 "J" characters in front of EG are useless and only serve to bring the total character count to 49. Without the 2 "J" characters and reducing the file name to a single character reduces the TECO command sequence to 41 characters, including the 3 pair of characters. Since the date is entered by the user, the user can abide by what the operating system requires. The 49 characters include the at the end of each line, especially since the at the end of the first line is an essential part of the command sent to RT-11. If the characters are not counted, remove the "JJ" preceding the EG command, add the text string "ITECO:$$" to the end of the the last line (in front of the ) and probably change the name of the file to "DATE" from "TECO". That would result in the second version and include the original request that the string "TECO:" be part of the 49 characters. It is interesting how an idea can evolve after thinking about it for a while. Jerome Fine ________________________ J^UDDATE $GD^UR $LGREWTECO.COM$ ECJJEG at TECO$$ ________________________ J^UDDATE $GD^UR $LGREWDATE.COM$ ECEG at DATE$$ITECO:$$ ________________________ From cclist at sydex.com Fri Nov 12 20:09:50 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2010 18:09:50 -0800 Subject: Making Magnetic tape In-Reply-To: References: <20101112230927.GA11112@Update.UU.SE>, Message-ID: <4CDD82EE.8308.21BB5C5@cclist.sydex.com> On 12 Nov 2010 at 16:43, Roger Ivie wrote: > "Stickytape and Rust" from The Secret Life of Machines Seems to me that I've seen paper tape coated with oxide before plastic. Also, the wire recorder goes back a very long time. All of which reminds me of some of the original lab work for the IBM 1311 drive (thanks, CHM!). Take a steel disc, oxidize it and use a unipolar read/write head. I'm surprised no amateur has tried to make his own version of this thing. --Chuck From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Nov 12 20:21:26 2010 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2010 18:21:26 -0800 Subject: Making Magnetic tape In-Reply-To: <20101112230927.GA11112@Update.UU.SE> References: <20101112230927.GA11112@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <4CDDF626.9070608@bitsavers.org> On 11/12/10 3:09 PM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > Hi > > Speakin of making punch cards and paper tape. What would it take to make > DECtape? > How many would you like, and what are they worth to you? I probably personally have over 100 reels. From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Fri Nov 12 20:44:16 2010 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2010 18:44:16 -0800 (PST) Subject: Making Magnetic tape In-Reply-To: <4CDD82EE.8308.21BB5C5@cclist.sydex.com> References: <20101112230927.GA11112@Update.UU.SE>, <4CDD82EE.8308.21BB5C5@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 12 Nov 2010, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 12 Nov 2010 at 16:43, Roger Ivie wrote: > >> "Stickytape and Rust" from The Secret Life of Machines > > Seems to me that I've seen paper tape coated with oxide before > plastic. Also, the wire recorder goes back a very long time. > > All of which reminds me of some of the original lab work for the IBM > 1311 drive (thanks, CHM!). Take a steel disc, oxidize it and use a > unipolar read/write head. I'm surprised no amateur has tried to make > his own version of this thing. It reminds me of this toy: http://www.makershed.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=MKGK22&Click=37845 -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Nov 12 21:07:01 2010 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2010 19:07:01 -0800 Subject: Making Magnetic tape In-Reply-To: References: <20101112230927.GA11112@Update.UU.SE>, <4CDD82EE.8308.21BB5C5@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: At 6:44 PM -0800 11/12/10, David Griffith wrote: >It reminds me of this toy: >http://www.makershed.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=MKGK22&Click=37845 Here is what the original question made me think of. http://news.cnet.com/8301-17938_105-10414111-1.html Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | From hachti at hachti.de Fri Nov 12 21:17:31 2010 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2010 04:17:31 +0100 Subject: Punched cards - which paper/cardboard? In-Reply-To: References: <4CDDAC7F.8080209@hachti.de> <4CDDB178.2020303@bitsavers.org> <4CDDC115.9060001@hachti.de> Message-ID: <4CDE034B.2040407@hachti.de> Hi William, On 13.11.2010 00:01, William Donzelli wrote: >> I made a "machine" that is able to fanfold paper tape. Yes, but.... >> currently only something like a >> proof of concept. It worked too unprecisely by far. It needs to be >> reconstructed using precision components instead of a mixture of pneumatics, >> a stepper motor, and handcrafted wooden parts :-) > > You know that they make paper folding machines, right? Oh... I did look around in the web. Found machines that print and fold and cut and even can make coffee for you. I once found an old patent describing a little mechanical desktop machine that folds paper tape. Just the thing I'd love to have... But building that kind of machine is beyond my mechanical skills. I still have another idea for a folder. I'll try it when I find the time to do so. There seems to be one major problem with the usual fanfolding systems: They perforate! If you perforate the paper web it's easy. That's done for computer paper and forms. I did not find any reference to endless folding machines that would do the job - except the patent mentioned. My post was about punched cards. Next week I'll send out some enquiries to some paper companies around my part of the world. The most interesting question is if there is reasonable need/interest for nicely printed punch cards througout the vintage computing/computer museum community. I'd want to run them through a letterpress. I'd need to do a run of at least 150000 cards. That's about the minimum amount of paper to buy for a reasonable price. Kind regards, Philipp -- http://www.hachti.de From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Nov 12 21:41:12 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2010 19:41:12 -0800 (PST) Subject: Punched cards - which paper/cardboard? In-Reply-To: <4CDE034B.2040407@hachti.de> References: <4CDDAC7F.8080209@hachti.de> <4CDDB178.2020303@bitsavers.org> <4CDDC115.9060001@hachti.de> <4CDE034B.2040407@hachti.de> Message-ID: <20101112193904.B922@shell.lmi.net> > My post was about punched cards. Next week I'll send out some enquiries > to some paper companies around my part of the world. It used to be that by far the cheapest source of light stiff cardboard for EAM purposes was to buy boxes of blank IBM cards, trim them to size, and print what you wanted on them. From cclist at sydex.com Fri Nov 12 21:44:48 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2010 19:44:48 -0800 Subject: Punched cards - which paper/cardboard? In-Reply-To: <4CDE034B.2040407@hachti.de> References: <4CDDAC7F.8080209@hachti.de>, , <4CDE034B.2040407@hachti.de> Message-ID: <4CDD9930.21803.272A88F@cclist.sydex.com> On 13 Nov 2010 at 4:17, Philipp Hachtmann wrote: > The most interesting question is if there is reasonable need/interest > for nicely printed punch cards througout the vintage > computing/computer museum community. I'd want to run them through a > letterpress. I'd need to do a run of at least 150000 cards. That's > about the minimum amount of paper to buy for a reasonable price. Phillipp, I'm sure you're aware that there are both ANSI and ISO standards available for punched cards. Sadly, I don't have a copy of the X3.11 standard, but if I did, I'd send it to you. 150,000 cards is what, 75 boxes? Heck, that's not that much. I probably had at least 50 in my office at one point... --Chuck From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Nov 12 21:47:48 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2010 22:47:48 -0500 Subject: Punched cards - which paper/cardboard? In-Reply-To: <4CDE034B.2040407@hachti.de> References: <4CDDAC7F.8080209@hachti.de> <4CDDB178.2020303@bitsavers.org> <4CDDC115.9060001@hachti.de> <4CDE034B.2040407@hachti.de> Message-ID: > There seems to be one major problem with the usual fanfolding systems: They > perforate! If you perforate the paper web it's easy. That's done for > computer paper and forms. Perforations are optional on paper folding machines. Some will not even do the perforation function, so another machine needs to be called into duty. > The most interesting question is if there is reasonable need/interest for > nicely printed punch cards througout the vintage computing/computer museum > community. I'd want to run them through a letterpress. I'd need to do a run > of at least 150000 cards. That's about the minimum amount of paper to buy > for a reasonable price. Do you think you could do it cheaper than Cardmation? For a few hundred dollars, a collector or museum could get more cards than they will probably ever use. -- Will From hachti at hachti.de Fri Nov 12 23:04:16 2010 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2010 06:04:16 +0100 Subject: Punched cards - which paper/cardboard? In-Reply-To: References: <4CDDAC7F.8080209@hachti.de> <4CDDB178.2020303@bitsavers.org> <4CDDC115.9060001@hachti.de> <4CDE034B.2040407@hachti.de> Message-ID: <4CDE1C50.7020805@hachti.de> Hi William, On 13.11.2010 04:47, William Donzelli wrote: >> There seems to be one major problem with the usual fanfolding systems: They >> perforate! If you perforate the paper web it's easy. That's done for >> computer paper and forms. > > Perforations are optional on paper folding machines. Some will not > even do the perforation function, so another machine needs to be > called into duty. Are you really sure? That could be great. I could *try* (any flexo printing specialists around?) to print a broad roll of paper with arrows and something like "directional PDP tape". Then get the roll to a company that folds it for me - can't be too expensive. In the end I'd cut the folded paper into 1" pieces. I assume that processing a 400kg (or more?) roll of paper could help many people... >> The most interesting question is if there is reasonable need/interest for >> nicely printed punch cards througout the vintage computing/computer museum >> community. I'd want to run them through a letterpress. I'd need to do a run >> of at least 150000 cards. That's about the minimum amount of paper to buy >> for a reasonable price. > > Do you think you could do it cheaper than Cardmation? For a few > hundred dollars, a collector or museum could get more cards than they > will probably ever use. Probably. Their price for blank cards isn't very high. But I don't know what they ask for "personalized" cards. I just assume that you have to spend several hundred dollars. If I find the right or nearly right cardboard stuff, I'll do a calculation. I won't take my labour into account as it's all a hobby. I have to get paid the press. And the paper, of course... And a device for rounding the corners. All in all seems to sum up to approx EUR 3000. Kind regards, Philipp -- http://www.hachti.de From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Nov 12 23:50:41 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2010 00:50:41 -0500 Subject: Punched cards - which paper/cardboard? In-Reply-To: <4CDE1C50.7020805@hachti.de> References: <4CDDAC7F.8080209@hachti.de> <4CDDB178.2020303@bitsavers.org> <4CDDC115.9060001@hachti.de> <4CDE034B.2040407@hachti.de> <4CDE1C50.7020805@hachti.de> Message-ID: > Are you really sure? That could be great. > I could *try* (any flexo printing specialists around?) to print a broad roll > of paper with arrows and something like "directional PDP tape". > Then get the roll to a company that folds it for me - can't be too > expensive. In the end I'd cut the folded paper into 1" pieces. > I assume that processing a 400kg (or more?) roll of paper could help many > people... I have done enough time in a print shop. Paper folding machines can be a real handful, and thus one of the most expensive parts of a printing operation. However, paper folding machines pop up in the US surplus market a fair amount, as the independent print shops are killed off. It might make sense to do the folding operation yourself. > Probably. Their price for blank cards isn't very high. But I don't know what > they ask for "personalized" cards. I just assume that you have to spend > several hundred dollars. > Any print shop that still does ink can print whatever you want on the cards. -- Will From hachti at hachti.de Sat Nov 13 01:58:50 2010 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2010 08:58:50 +0100 Subject: Punched cards - which paper/cardboard? In-Reply-To: References: <4CDDAC7F.8080209@hachti.de> <4CDDB178.2020303@bitsavers.org> <4CDDC115.9060001@hachti.de> <4CDE034B.2040407@hachti.de> <4CDE1C50.7020805@hachti.de> Message-ID: <6596F6CA-A666-4B67-A902-18FE097BA770@hachti.de> > I have done enough time in a print shop. Oh cool! I really like printing. > Paper folding machines can be a real handful, and thus one of the most > expensive parts of a printing operation. I see... So the right machines exist - but somewhere beyondy limited horizon. > However, paper folding > machines pop up in the US surplus market a fair amount, as the > independent print shops are killed off. Hm, here I saw only sheet folding machines during the last years. > It might make sense to do the > folding operation yourself. Then with homebreq equipment >> Probably. Their price for blank cards isn't very high. But I don't know what >> they ask for "personalized" cards. I just assume that you have to spend >> several hundred dollars. >> > > Any print shop that still does ink can print whatever you want on the cards. Of course. You can get that service around the corner. But here it'll cost you lots of money for reproduction and machine setup. I want to print the cards on my Heidelberg windmill. From snhirsch at gmail.com Thu Nov 11 06:11:36 2010 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2010 07:11:36 -0500 (EST) Subject: DiscFerret PCBs for sale In-Reply-To: <4CDBA8A8.7050906@philpem.me.uk> References: <4CDADFF7.4020606@philpem.me.uk> <4CDBA8A8.7050906@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: On Thu, 11 Nov 2010, Philip Pemberton wrote: > On 10/11/10 23:09, Steven Hirsch wrote: >> On Wed, 10 Nov 2010, Philip Pemberton wrote: >> >>> - PIC microcontroller soldered down and pre-programmed. Add ?5. This >>> includes programming the bootloader into the PIC, and means you won't >>> need a PIC programmer to bootstrap the DiscFerret. >> >> Is the PIC an SMD part? > > Yes -- A 0.5mm pitch, 80-pin TQFP. > The FPGA is a 0.4mm pitch, 144-pin TQFP. > > The power controller chip (TPS75003) is a QFN, which means it doesn't have > pins, just a bunch of pads on the bottom of the chip. Hence why I said you > need a hot-air station to solder it down... > >> Also, can you post any photos, board layout pictorials or schematics? > > The schematics are in the version control repository in EAGLE format. The URL > is http://hg.discferret.com/hardware . > > I've uploaded a PDF version here: > http://www.discferret.com/pdf/discferret_sch.pdf > > And a PDF of the PCB layout here: > http://www.discferret.com/pdf/discferret_pcb.pdf Ouch. So it's essentially 100% SMD? I'll have to wait for assembled units. I have neither the requisite skills nor equipment. Drat. -- From snhirsch at gmail.com Thu Nov 11 06:13:19 2010 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2010 07:13:19 -0500 (EST) Subject: DiscFerret - REVISED PRICES (was DiscFerret PCBs for sale) In-Reply-To: <4CDBA117.1040305@philpem.me.uk> References: <4CDADFF7.4020606@philpem.me.uk> <4CDBA117.1040305@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: On Thu, 11 Nov 2010, Philip Pemberton wrote: > On 10/11/10 18:09, Philip Pemberton wrote: > ARGH. I screwed this up big-time -- I was looking at the prices based on the > first production batch, not my revised spreadsheet. D'oh! > > These are the actual prices, including rough US-dollar equivalents > > Bare board: ?22.50 ($37) > With TPS75003 mounted: ?27.50 ($45) > With PIC mounted: ?27.50 ($45) > With both mounted: ?31.50 ($51) > PCB + assembled & tested PSU: ?45 ($72) > PCB + tested PSU + PIC soldered/programmed: ?49 ($79) Please do let us know when you have complete assembled and tested units available? -- From nick.allen at comcast.net Fri Nov 12 11:03:00 2010 From: nick.allen at comcast.net (Nick Allen) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2010 11:03:00 -0600 Subject: Would You Pay $200,000 for an Original Apple Computer? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CDD7344.4020209@comcast.net> One just sold on ebay for approx $20K, not sure why someone would pay 10X that for one with a signed note from Steve Jobs... From bqt at softjar.se Thu Nov 11 13:33:59 2010 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2010 20:33:59 +0100 Subject: need teco suggestions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CDC4527.2040000@softjar.se> On 11/11/10 15:22, Richard wrote: > I need a TECO command suggestion that will fit in 3 lines of 18 chars > each. > > It would be nice if I could have 5 chars leftover to have "TECO:" or > "TECO " in there:-) What should it do? One thing that I occasionally do is having a list of files in a buffer, I want to add some cruft before and after each file name, to create something useful to run as a command file. Something like this then (without testing, off the top of my head): I can probably come up with more complex versions of that as needed, as well... :-) Johnny From jws at jwsss.com Thu Nov 11 13:53:52 2010 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2010 11:53:52 -0800 Subject: surplus source for MRA connectors? In-Reply-To: <4CDC2AB0.2040605@bitsavers.org> References: <20101102212707.045E71E006F@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> <4CD09559.70703@bitsavers.org> <4CDC2AB0.2040605@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4CDC49D0.8080700@jwsss.com> I was wondering it a jigsaw session or delron machine could solve the shell problem. I saw the V.35 connectors, and figured out the pins. I wonder how they do the detents inside the shells to retain the pins if one were machining it yourself with an NC plastic machine of some sort. Jim On 11/11/2010 9:41 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > On 11/2/10 3:48 PM, Al Kossow wrote: >> On 11/2/10 2:27 PM, Tim Shoppa wrote: >>>> In particular, the MRA42P solder cup 42 pin "winchester" plug for >>>> Diablo 31 disk drives. >>> > > After a week of digging around, I did finally come up with the > connectors. I ended up getting MRAC connectors (separate pins and > shells), > with the shell from one source and pins from another. > > The pins are used in V.35 connectors, so they are easy to find. > 42 pin MRAC shells were only made by Winchester, > but there was a local source ($100 minimum though) > > > From bdamer at digitalspace.com Fri Nov 12 14:03:00 2010 From: bdamer at digitalspace.com (Bruce Damer) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2010 15:03:00 -0500 Subject: Old cromemco C3 in a rack... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0LBS007Z3FP3OKV0@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> If anyone is interested in this, feel free to contact Sharon directly.... HI Bruce, Thanks for the quick reply. I'm attaching a couple of photos. One of the pictures shows the Hazeltine monitor (also available) that was used with the computer. I believe the unit is an Ohio Scientific C3. Here is a link to an eBay item for an Ohio Scientific ad for a similar machine. Ours came with a hard disk, but we no longer have it. http://cgi.ebay.com/1979-Ohio-Scientific-C3-C-Computer-29MB-Hardrive-Ad-/190397025541?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2c548c0d05 What you see in the pics is all we have for the machine. I'd like your opinion and the opionion of any of your contacts whether I should continue to try to find this a home, or just pitch it. I don't want any money for it, but don't really want to pay shipping, either. Also, FYI, I have some sales literature from the period for OSI (including some of the Bill Cosby brochures) and a few others, if anyone is interested. Thanks again, Sharon Maule (309) 231-9237 From bdamer at digitalspace.com Fri Nov 12 14:07:48 2010 From: bdamer at digitalspace.com (Bruce Damer) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2010 15:07:48 -0500 Subject: Meant OSI! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0LBS006TMFX29811@mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Sorry folks I meant an Ohio Scientific! From jlobocki at gmail.com Fri Nov 12 18:47:57 2010 From: jlobocki at gmail.com (joe lobocki) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2010 18:47:57 -0600 Subject: Collection transport costs (was Re: Would You Pay $200, 000 for an Original Apple Computer?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I once drove from near the northeast tip of illinois to purdude indiana (whole other timezone-I think that caused some confusion) just to pick up an sgi octane and avoid shipping costs on the 75 lb monster.. On Nov 12, 2010 4:05 PM, "Ethan Dicks" wrote: > On Fri, Nov 12, 2010 at 4:47 PM, Teo Zenios wrote: >>> Over a period of 10 years, its not hard to sink $20K into shipping >>> fees alone when you collect stuff that needs to be shipped freight. >> >> Sure if you collect large machines and have them shipped cross country. Most >> of the heavy items I have are local pickups... > > Nearly all of my heavy DEC stuff came from The Ohio State University > or businesses around Columbus. I did drive to Dayton once for an > 11/750, but I've gotten no item larger than an RL01 or PDP-8/a or > VT-52 from out of state. There was the time I ordered an LA-180, but > I used a "free shipping on your next order" from Newman Computer > Exchange to order that - it came strapped down to a pallet via van > freight from MI, right to my front door. I did use it for consulting > work later (on a locally-sourced 11/23), but at the time, I picked the > heaviest thing for my PDP-8/a that I thought I'd be likely to want. > > So I've spent a few hundred on renting lift-gate trucks and such over > the past thirty years, but even a double-H960 PDP-11/34 setup w/drives > and software and docs fit in the back of my 1976 Microbus with room up > front for a passenger/loadie. > > I'm sure someone who collects IBM iron has an entirely different story to tell. > > -ethan From bdamer at digitalspace.com Fri Nov 12 19:36:43 2010 From: bdamer at digitalspace.com (Bruce Damer) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2010 20:36:43 -0500 Subject: Reaching Sharon on OSI system... In-Reply-To: <7.1.0.9.2.20101112150331.0486cf18@digitalspace.com> References: <7.1.0.9.2.20101112150331.0486cf18@digitalspace.com> Message-ID: <0LBS00IHBV598340@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Oh and to reach Sharon her email address is: SharonMaul at aol.com bruce From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Sat Nov 13 04:54:05 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2010 10:54:05 +0000 Subject: DiscFerret PCBs for sale In-Reply-To: References: <4CDADFF7.4020606@philpem.me.uk> <4CDBA8A8.7050906@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4CDE6E4D.5050203@philpem.me.uk> On 11/11/10 12:11, Steven Hirsch wrote: > Ouch. So it's essentially 100% SMD? Yes. The off-board connectors are through hole, but that's solely because SMD connectors tend to be mechanically weaker. I don't want these things coming back with broken connectors! > I'll have to wait for assembled > units. I have neither the requisite skills nor equipment. As I've said, expect a price of between ?120 to ?150 plus P&P. I'm hoping to sneak into town on Monday to get some solder paste and some parts for the paste stencil. Hopefully I'll be able to get the single-unit full-build time down below an hour. The oven's big enough to do two boards at once, BTW. -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Nov 13 08:43:13 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2010 09:43:13 -0500 Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re=3A_Christies_of_london_to_auction_?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?apple_1_for_=A3150=2C000?= In-Reply-To: <4CDDCD79.9090302@snarc.net> References: <458344.44478.qm@web113513.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4CDDC42A.3020904@snarc.net> <4CDDCD79.9090302@snarc.net> Message-ID: <4CDEA401.2060300@neurotica.com> On 11/12/10 6:27 PM, Evan Koblentz wrote: >>> I sent a very polite email to the appropriate contact at Christies. I >>> cc'd Dag Spicer (a curator at the CHM) and Sellam. I explained the >>> going rates for an Apple 1 like this, and I inquired how they priced >>> it so high. >> You have no clue about the people you are dealing with. > > Is there an emoticon for "rolls eyes"...? > > I know who/what I'm dealing with. Don't insult me. This is Will...he can't help it. ;) (sorry Will, I couldn't resist!) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From hachti at hachti.de Sun Nov 14 02:03:59 2010 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2010 09:03:59 +0100 Subject: Offering Digital paper tape punch and reader - PC04 Message-ID: <4CDF97EF.10903@hachti.de> Hi, see the following pictures: http://picasaweb.google.com/iraeus/DECPC04 There you see a modestly rare and completely working DEC PC04 paper tape reader and punch. The unit is complete with cables. Needs 110V power supply. The frame that goes into the rack *might* be there ass well. I checked and used the machine for a while. Did not find any problems. Could be cleaner - that job is left for the next owner. It's not my unit. But I can let it go for reasonable money. Shipping anywhere. If you're interested, email me your offer. If I don't get reasonable offers the machine will end up on eBay. Kind regards, Philipp -- http://www.hachti.de From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Nov 14 02:35:24 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2010 03:35:24 -0500 Subject: Punched cards - which paper/cardboard? In-Reply-To: <6596F6CA-A666-4B67-A902-18FE097BA770@hachti.de> References: <4CDDAC7F.8080209@hachti.de> <4CDDB178.2020303@bitsavers.org> <4CDDC115.9060001@hachti.de> <4CDE034B.2040407@hachti.de> <4CDE1C50.7020805@hachti.de> <6596F6CA-A666-4B67-A902-18FE097BA770@hachti.de> Message-ID: > Oh cool! I really like printing. Pretty neat stuff, but an almost dead industry in the US. So much has been digitized now (RIPs, digital presses, etc.). > Then with homebreq equipment Somewhere in between is probably the answer. Shop around, get a folding machine, then modify it to your needs. > Of course. You can get that service around the corner. But here it'll cost you lots of money for reproduction and machine setup. > I want to print the cards on my Heidelberg windmill. I would not be surprised if Cardamation farms out the printing. Or even the whole card making process. -- Will From jm191270 at yahoo.fr Sat Nov 13 16:33:09 2010 From: jm191270 at yahoo.fr (Jacques) Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2010 23:33:09 +0100 Subject: Computer Machinery Corporation? Message-ID: <000501cb8382$c36abad0$9f01a8c0@jacques981fd12> What would you like to know ? JaM jm191270 at yahoo.fr From jws at jwsss.com Sun Nov 14 03:02:30 2010 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2010 01:02:30 -0800 Subject: Punched cards - which paper/cardboard? In-Reply-To: References: <4CDDAC7F.8080209@hachti.de> <4CDDB178.2020303@bitsavers.org> <4CDDC115.9060001@hachti.de> <4CDE034B.2040407@hachti.de> <4CDE1C50.7020805@hachti.de> <6596F6CA-A666-4B67-A902-18FE097BA770@hachti.de> Message-ID: <4CDFA5A6.3010601@jwsss.com> there was a place in St. Louis where a friend of mine worked, which has the card stock, and the dies to make all the cards you wish. He uses a large run he had made for making up ticket sets for another hobby he has. the card stock he used is similar to the fixed part of an old style credit card form, which you may recall is about the size and shape of a Hollerith card, including the little part clipped on one corner. He no longer works there, but the capability still exists. Note that the input stock is a 12 to 24" wide roll about 8' in diameter, don't recall how many thousand feet long. He was able to get a short run from a scrap roll to make his cards, but most people would need to order a lot of cards. Think maybe 3 or 4 full freight skids, maybe 40" x 40" x 40" or so by the time the whole roll is exhausted. Jim On 11/14/2010 12:35 AM, William Donzelli wrote: >> Oh cool! I really like printing. > Pretty neat stuff, but an almost dead industry in the US. So much has > been digitized now (RIPs, digital presses, etc.). > From hachti at hachti.de Sun Nov 14 03:11:50 2010 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2010 10:11:50 +0100 Subject: Punched cards - which paper/cardboard? In-Reply-To: References: <4CDDAC7F.8080209@hachti.de> <4CDDB178.2020303@bitsavers.org> <4CDDC115.9060001@hachti.de> <4CDE034B.2040407@hachti.de> <4CDE1C50.7020805@hachti.de> <6596F6CA-A666-4B67-A902-18FE097BA770@hachti.de> Message-ID: <4CDFA7D6.5050805@hachti.de> Hello again, On 14.11.2010 09:35, William Donzelli wrote: >> Oh cool! I really like printing. > > Pretty neat stuff, but an almost dead industry in the US. So much has > been digitized now (RIPs, digital presses, etc.). I think here it's quite similar. There are modern printing shops, of course. The companies that could afford new and big machines survived... Letterpress machines are still around, sometimes standing next to the latest and greatest "Speedmaster" machines. They're used for . >> Then with homebreq equipment > > Somewhere in between is probably the answer. Shop around, get a > folding machine, then modify it to your needs. Yes, that was my idea as well. I'll try to get to some auctions... Still looking for all that other "bad" stuff like a RIP... >> Of course. You can get that service around the corner. But here it'll cost you lots of money for reproduction and machine setup. >> I want to print the cards on my Heidelberg windmill. > > I would not be surprised if Cardamation farms out the printing. Or > even the whole card making process. Possible. The card making process seems to be quite simple. Take the paper and cut it to cards. Waht I currently have: - Cutting machine - Windmill press - Some letterset stuff (lead) - not related to the cards What I'm still missing on my way to making cards: - Photopolymer plate flow (RIP with "film making machine", developing machine, Nyloprint machine (washing, drying, exposure)) - corner rounding machine - Mechanical guide that allows steady cutting of the cards' missing corner - The right paper. The photopolymer thing can be done elsewhere for now. I'll pickup the equipment on occasion. A corner rounding machine would be great. Though there seemed to exist cards without rounded corners. Paper seems to be available. Don't know prices yet. The price is critical. If it's more expensive than 1-2 EUR cent per card the project is endangered. Have a nice Sunday, Philipp :-) -- http://www.hachti.de From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Nov 14 03:38:48 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2010 04:38:48 -0500 Subject: Punched cards - which paper/cardboard? In-Reply-To: <4CDFA7D6.5050805@hachti.de> References: <4CDDAC7F.8080209@hachti.de> <4CDDB178.2020303@bitsavers.org> <4CDDC115.9060001@hachti.de> <4CDE034B.2040407@hachti.de> <4CDE1C50.7020805@hachti.de> <6596F6CA-A666-4B67-A902-18FE097BA770@hachti.de> <4CDFA7D6.5050805@hachti.de> Message-ID: > I think here it's quite similar. There are modern printing shops, of course. > The companies that could afford new and big machines survived... Also, the new stuff is just better. > What I'm still missing on my way to making cards: > > - Photopolymer plate flow (RIP with "film making machine", developing > machine, Nyloprint machine (washing, drying, exposure)) Well, yes, if you want to print stuff. It may not be worth it, since a PDF will do fine at most print shops. > - corner rounding machine Nice to have, but not actually needed. Most card equipments will work fine with card with square corners. > - Mechanical guide that allows steady cutting of the cards' missing corner A properly shaped hunk of wood will do fine for a jig. > - The right paper. The hard part. > Have a nice Sunday, Sunday now, I have no idea why I am still up. -- Will From lynchaj at yahoo.com Sun Nov 14 10:10:51 2010 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2010 11:10:51 -0500 Subject: Ugh, I think I am going to be sick... Message-ID: Check out ebay auction 190467284114 and you can clearly see there are DIP64 MC68000 CPUs going to the scrapper bin. This is painful to see especially knowing the S-100 68K CPU board is entering build and test. I know builders will be looking for these parts soon. The DIP64 68000 CPUs are still available though this seems like such a waste to scrap classic ICs. I think it is tragic. Andrew Lynch From dfnr2 at yahoo.com Sun Nov 14 10:42:45 2010 From: dfnr2 at yahoo.com (Dave) Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2010 08:42:45 -0800 (PST) Subject: DiscFerret PCBs for sale In-Reply-To: <4CDE6E4D.5050203@philpem.me.uk> References: <4CDADFF7.4020606@philpem.me.uk> <4CDBA8A8.7050906@philpem.me.uk> <4CDE6E4D.5050203@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <564255.65388.qm@web38107.mail.mud.yahoo.com> From: Philip Pemberton > Hopefully I'll be able to get the single-unit full-build time down below an >hour. > The oven's big enough to do two boards at once, BTW. Hi Philip. I've been following this with interest, and will be in line for one of the boards as well. Drifting a bit off-topic, what oven are you using? I do need to assemble SMT prototypes, and I've been using a cheap preheater and air-pencil from Aoyue. Nothing wrong with those products, but I find that tiny parts don't fair well under a (relatively gentle IMO) hot air blast. They don't want to stay still. I've read mixed reviews of some of the cheap ovens, and I suppose I could go ahead and try to implement one of the franken-toaster mods out there, but I don't see how that would be much better. Regards, Dave From hachti at hachti.de Sun Nov 14 11:49:00 2010 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2010 18:49:00 +0100 Subject: Punched cards - which paper/cardboard? In-Reply-To: References: <4CDDAC7F.8080209@hachti.de> <4CDDB178.2020303@bitsavers.org> <4CDDC115.9060001@hachti.de> <4CDE034B.2040407@hachti.de> <4CDE1C50.7020805@hachti.de> <6596F6CA-A666-4B67-A902-18FE097BA770@hachti.de> <4CDFA7D6.5050805@hachti.de> Message-ID: Huh...! Am 14.11.2010 um 10:38 schrieb William Donzelli : >> I think here it's quite similar. There are modern printing shops, of course. >> The companies that could afford new and big machines survived... > > Also, the new stuff is just better. Ah? Remember where we are here. An USB stick is better than several tons of cards as well. But who wants the stick? I think its quite ok to use letterprint to print cards. The original cards seem to be made on a flexo rotation machine though. I suspect that with regard to the poor printing quality. And flexo is very cheap.... >> What I'm still missing on my way to making cards: >> >> - Photopolymer plate flow (RIP with "film making machine", developing >> machine, Nyloprint machine (washing, drying, exposure)) > > Well, yes, if you want to print stuff. It may not be worth it, since a > PDF will do fine at most print shops. The print shops accept pdf today, yes. They make an offset plate and then print the stuff. But that's not what I want. I want plates for my letterpress. So I must have some decent machinery for that task - or pay ??? for the plates made from pdf. > >> - corner rounding machine > > Nice to have, but not actually needed. Most card equipments will work > fine with card with square corners. That's good news!!! Really! > >> - Mechanical guide that allows steady cutting of the cards' missing corner > > A properly shaped hunk of wood will do fine for a jig. That's the kind of tool I had in mind ;) > >> - The right paper. > > The hard part. I have found references to card stock on websites of local (means German) paper distributors and paper mills. I have to see if someone has that stuff on stock. If not, I'd have to deal with paper mill minimum order quantities of 40 tons or something alike - which would be sad... > >> Have a nice Sunday, > > Sunday now, I have no idea why I am still up. I know that.... Very well. Kind regards, Philipp From IanK at vulcan.com Sun Nov 14 11:50:45 2010 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2010 09:50:45 -0800 Subject: Christies of london to auction apple 1 for ?150 ,000 In-Reply-To: <201011130000.oAD00Vu4051640@billY.EZWIND.NET> References: <458344.44478.qm@web113513.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4CDDC42A.3020904@snarc.net> , <201011130000.oAD00Vu4051640@billY.EZWIND.NET> Message-ID: Pants? http://www.utilikilts.com -- Ian ________________________________________ From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of John Foust [jfoust at threedee.com] Sent: Friday, November 12, 2010 4:00 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Christies of london to auction apple 1 for ?150 ,000 At 04:54 PM 11/12/2010, William Donzelli wrote: >You have no clue about the people you are dealing with. I'm sure they're regular folks who have their pants put on two legs at a time, just like the rest of us. - John From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Sun Nov 14 12:04:58 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2010 16:04:58 -0200 Subject: Ugh, I think I am going to be sick... References: Message-ID: <0dc301cb8426$84b0e400$6e00a8c0@portajara> > Check out ebay auction 190467284114 and you can clearly see there are > DIP64 > MC68000 CPUs going to the scrapper bin. > This is painful to see especially knowing the S-100 68K CPU board is > entering build and test. I know builders will be looking for these parts > soon. > The DIP64 68000 CPUs are still available though this seems like such a > waste > to scrap classic ICs. I think it is tragic. Andrew, Am I wrong, or the 68000 IC is a **very common** microprocessor? :oO From lynchaj at yahoo.com Sun Nov 14 12:54:17 2010 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2010 13:54:17 -0500 Subject: Ugh, I think I am going to be sick... Message-ID: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/2010-November/294055.html [Alexandre Souza] > Andrew, Am I wrong, or the 68000 IC is a **very common** microprocessor? >:oO I wouldn't call them common but certainly not rare either. It is the thought of really nice and still useful ceramic 68Ks being reduced to toxic sludge for a tiny bit of gold that bothers me. They could easily be sold for much more than the value of the metal recovery. eBay has them going for $8 to $50 or more each. Also amateur gold scrappers have a nasty habit of making a mess with their chemical waste. Andrew Lynch From scanning.cc at gmail.com Sun Nov 14 13:47:28 2010 From: scanning.cc at gmail.com (alan canning) Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2010 11:47:28 -0800 Subject: Epoxy potting removal ? Message-ID: I have a critical ( late 80's microprocessor controlled ) piece of test gear no longer supported. The power supply is dead and after sawing through it's exoskeleton I was meet with a large epoxy block the size of the original box. I don't intend to fix said power supply but rather to figure out what voltages it provided and use a modern switcher. I know I need +12 and +5 as there is a generic floppy drive and the logic / processor uses +5. Any ideas how to strip the epoxy other than digging through it with implements of mass destruction ? Any and all help is appreciated. Best regards, Steven From scanning.cc at gmail.com Sun Nov 14 13:55:40 2010 From: scanning.cc at gmail.com (alan canning) Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2010 11:55:40 -0800 Subject: Data I/O Unipak 2B ? Message-ID: I just bought a Data I/O 29B with an Unipak 2B from Epay. Everything seems okay BUT the pinout cartridge ( the little module that plugs in the end of the 2B ) is missing. I suspect that all it has is some kind of simple interlock like two pins tied together to tell the Data I/O the cartridge is there ( probably so you can't run the unit with that HAZARDOUS 20 volts on the open connector. Anybody know how to get around this or fake it ? The unit won't do squat without it.... Have not been able to find a schematic of the 2B or the pinout cartridge. Thanks. Best regards, Steven From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Sun Nov 14 14:08:56 2010 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2010 21:08:56 +0100 Subject: Data I/O Unipak 2B ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <000601cb8437$c7b02a70$57107f50$@xs4all.nl> Steven, The manuals are on bitsavers http://bitsavers.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pdf/dataIO/ -Rik -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Namens alan canning Verzonden: zondag 14 november 2010 20:56 Aan: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Onderwerp: Data I/O Unipak 2B ? I just bought a Data I/O 29B with an Unipak 2B from Epay. Everything seems okay BUT the pinout cartridge ( the little module that plugs in the end of the 2B ) is missing. I suspect that all it has is some kind of simple interlock like two pins tied together to tell the Data I/O the cartridge is there ( probably so you can't run the unit with that HAZARDOUS 20 volts on the open connector. Anybody know how to get around this or fake it ? The unit won't do squat without it.... Have not been able to find a schematic of the 2B or the pinout cartridge. Thanks. Best regards, Steven From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Nov 14 14:24:53 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2010 20:24:53 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Epoxy potting removal ? In-Reply-To: from "alan canning" at Nov 14, 10 11:47:28 am Message-ID: > > I have a critical ( late 80's microprocessor controlled ) piece of test gear > no longer supported. The power supply is dead and after sawing through it's > exoskeleton I was meet with a large epoxy block the size of the original > box. I don't intend to fix said power supply but rather to figure out what > voltages it provided and use a modern switcher. I know I need +12 and +5 as > there is a generic floppy drive and the logic / processor uses +5. Any ideas > how to strip the epoxy other than digging through it with implements of mass > destruction ? Any and all help is appreciated. Itmight be easier to work out what the PSU needs to be than to dismantle the origianl one. Firstly, what is the instrument (People here have some amazing stuff, and ity's possible somebody else has the same unit and can measure the output voltages. If not, then how many output wires are there? Presumably there are 3 for the ground, +5V and +12V supplies. Is there a -12V (e.g. for an RS232 port) that you could identify? What about the analogue side? This may well need a floating supply (that is, one with a semarate ground rail, not the same as the logic supply ground). Op=amps (if there are any) are likely to use something like a +/-15V supply. -tony From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Nov 14 14:26:40 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2010 15:26:40 -0500 Subject: Ugh, I think I am going to be sick... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > They could easily be sold for much more than the value of the metal > recovery. ?eBay has them going for $8 to $50 or more each. ?Also amateur > gold scrappers have a nasty habit of making a mess with their chemical > waste. I do not think you understood the first time I said this. Most guys buying chips and boards today use refineries, and have stopped doing the refining at home. There are still a fair number of independents doing the chemistry in their basement, but most have figured out that using the commercial refineries is better in many ways. The refineries are actually quite clean, considering the toxic nature of the business. -- Will From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Sun Nov 14 14:42:28 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2010 20:42:28 +0000 Subject: DiscFerret PCBs for sale In-Reply-To: <564255.65388.qm@web38107.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <4CDADFF7.4020606@philpem.me.uk> <4CDBA8A8.7050906@philpem.me.uk> <4CDE6E4D.5050203@philpem.me.uk> <564255.65388.qm@web38107.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4CE049B4.4080402@philpem.me.uk> On 14/11/10 16:42, Dave wrote: > Drifting a bit off-topic, what oven are you using? A slightly modified Argos "Cookworks" mini-oven. 2100 Watts at 230V, fairly close to the limits of a 13A mains plug. At the moment I'm using an Agilent digital multimeter and a K-type thermocouple for monitoring, and have the bimetal thermostat locked in the "on" position. At some point I intend to replace this with a proper temperature controller, though ones that can handle sequencing seem to be unbelievably expensive. > I do need to assemble SMT > prototypes, and I've been using a cheap preheater and air-pencil from Aoyue. That's basically what I've got. 852A+ hot-air workstation, and the mini preheater (not the Quartz-IR one, the one below it). > Nothing wrong with those products, but I find that tiny parts don't fair well > under a (relatively gentle IMO) hot air blast. They don't want to stay still. Turn the airflow down, or stick them down with epoxy. Once the solder paste gets above ~150C, the flux tends to drain off and the solder balls bunch up around the pad. If you're lucky, this sticks the part down. Once the solder melts, surface tension holds the part in place. On an 852A+, you want to have the airflow at around 30% for really small parts, or about 50% (the startup default) for larger parts like ICs. > I've read mixed reviews of some of the cheap ovens, and I suppose I could go > ahead and try to implement one of the franken-toaster mods out there, but I > don't see how that would be much better. The ovens are based on convection, not forced-air. They heat the air around the board (although the IR from the heating elements helps to heat the board directly, too). The board absorbs heat from the air, temperature goes up, and everything heats up at roughly the same rate. If you're using cheap solder paste, you can have issues with tombstoning, where one end of a part melts first, but this is *rare* with modern pastes. I've just got my paws on a full SMD paste kit -- just need to find a slab of melamine or similar to use as a base board for applying the paste. There's some info about this method on PCB-Pool's SMT stencil site. -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From pontus at Update.UU.SE Sun Nov 14 14:55:13 2010 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2010 21:55:13 +0100 Subject: Ugh, I think I am going to be sick... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20101114205513.GA24692@Update.UU.SE> > I do not think you understood the first time I said this. > > Most guys buying chips and boards today use refineries, and have > stopped doing the refining at home. There are still a fair number of > independents doing the chemistry in their basement, but most have > figured out that using the commercial refineries is better in many > ways. > > The refineries are actually quite clean, considering the toxic nature > of the business. Why to people sell them on ebay? instead of taking them directly to the refineries. /P From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Sun Nov 14 14:59:41 2010 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2010 12:59:41 -0800 (PST) Subject: Ugh, I think I am going to be sick... In-Reply-To: <20101114205513.GA24692@Update.UU.SE> References: <20101114205513.GA24692@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: On Sun, 14 Nov 2010, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: >> I do not think you understood the first time I said this. >> >> Most guys buying chips and boards today use refineries, and have >> stopped doing the refining at home. There are still a fair number of >> independents doing the chemistry in their basement, but most have >> figured out that using the commercial refineries is better in many >> ways. >> >> The refineries are actually quite clean, considering the toxic nature >> of the business. > > Why to people sell them on ebay? instead of taking them directly to the > refineries. Personally, I wouldn't know where to go. I sold a lot of sixteen multibus boards on ebay as scrap because I just wanted to be rid of them. It fetched a decent price. I pulled out a few of the better-looking boards and sold them as "needing repair". -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoyin