From legalize at xmission.com Thu Jul 1 00:16:27 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2010 23:16:27 -0600 Subject: Knuth In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 30 Jun 2010 23:39:28 -0400. <4C2C0DF0.9080206@snarc.net> Message-ID: Googling around, it appears it was troll bait and there was no "real" announcement. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From ajp166 at verizon.net Thu Jul 1 08:51:04 2010 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2010 09:51:04 -0400 Subject: yet another pdp-11 in fgpa In-Reply-To: References: <4C2B624E.9060006@softjar.se> <4C2B90F0.90704@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4C2C9D48.5060300@verizon.net> On 06/30/2010 06:28 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >> ... and it was a faster number cruncher than VAX-11/780. >> The VAX had higher potential as the new reigning super minicomputer. It >> wasn't long after that I'd seen a VAX-11/782, 785 and VAXclusters. >> > I have to think that these later VAX machines and clusters were > certainly well in motion, even if unannounced, by the time this whole > 11/70mp / 11/74 project came out. In a business perspective, it makes > a lot of sense why these weird-11s were not marketed. > > Well you know the VAX11/70 announcement date it's easy to work backward by 18months to two years to get to a design start date. Since the announcement was introduced on October 25, 1977 we are looking at late 1975. There is much overlap in he time lines. Also the supposed picture of the 70mp is the same cab style and colors of the post 780 era. > I know almost nothing technically about these, so I ask - were these > multi-processor machines testbeds for ideas later seen (or not) in > other machines? Were they pet projects (DECBob)? > > VAX SMP machines and later and Clusters of DEC36bit machines may have been. Allison > -- > Will > > From ajp166 at verizon.net Thu Jul 1 09:54:40 2010 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2010 10:54:40 -0400 Subject: yet another pdp-11 in fgpa In-Reply-To: <4C2C9D48.5060300@verizon.net> References: <4C2B624E.9060006@softjar.se> <4C2B90F0.90704@verizon.net> <4C2C9D48.5060300@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4C2CAC30.9060702@verizon.net> I'd strongly suggest reading *Computer Engineering - C. Gordon Bell, J. Craig Mudge, John E. McNamara* On line at: http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/um/people/gbell/Computer_Engineering/ As it covers a lot of the history leading up to the 11/70 and VAX as well as other machines from 1957 to about 1977. it's straight from the horses moth info and also provides the time lines and a good look at why and what. It's important to point out that PDP11 was aimed at low to mid size applications of the time and VAX was for the bigger jobs and demanding apps. it was the successor to the PDP-8 for a large segment of computer tasks and it was to be cheaper and perform better. There was overlap in that, a great deal of it both in performance and timeframe. The 11/70 was for practical cases concurrent with with the VAX11/780 and the 11/74 was after that. When you consider the early VAX system also offered compatibility with PDP11 it didn't take a genius to see that there was customer base market fragmentation over PDP11 or VAX. The problem for DEC and the customers was that there were two paths one being upgrade with performance and lifespan ahead and the other cheaper but near the end for how much more performance it could yield. For many parts of DEC this was a conundrum as PDP11 was popular and well established by 1975 but it was clear by 1980 it's ranks would be relegated to lower cost medium performance due to technology growth where a machine embodying more advanced concepts would have extended growth path. This was not new to the industry but DEC was like many in the middle of it trying to figure out the next direction and those there were at most starting a third decade since PDP-1 and knew that change was the only constant. It's important to recognize that computer systems in 1978 were more costly than a car for small ones and for the midsize PDP11 more than a house, and VAX was in the price range of a entire block of houses. In 1978 that dynamic range was 4000 to 1,000,000 plus dollars. That and the rapid advancement of computer performance over short periods made it clear if you weren't looking ahead you were headed for the wall. Even the PC market exhibited this and its time scale was considerably compressed in comparison. My experiences span 1969 with my first contact with an pdp-8i (BOCES LIRICS Tymeshare) with the works through PDP10, PDP11, 8008, 8080, Z80 to current ARM9. Thats a lot of change. Allison On 07/01/2010 09:51 AM, allison wrote: > On 06/30/2010 06:28 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >>> ... and it was a faster number cruncher than VAX-11/780. >>> The VAX had higher potential as the new reigning super >>> minicomputer. It >>> wasn't long after that I'd seen a VAX-11/782, 785 and VAXclusters. >> I have to think that these later VAX machines and clusters were >> certainly well in motion, even if unannounced, by the time this whole >> 11/70mp / 11/74 project came out. In a business perspective, it makes >> a lot of sense why these weird-11s were not marketed. >> > Well you know the VAX11/70 announcement date it's easy to work > backward by > 18months to two years to get to a design start date. Since the > announcement was > introduced on October 25, 1977 we are looking at late 1975. There is > much overlap > in he time lines. > > Also the supposed picture of the 70mp is the same cab style and colors > of the > post 780 era. > >> I know almost nothing technically about these, so I ask - were these >> multi-processor machines testbeds for ideas later seen (or not) in >> other machines? Were they pet projects (DECBob)? >> > VAX SMP machines and later and Clusters of DEC36bit machines may have > been. > > > Allison > > >> -- >> Will >> > > From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Thu Jul 1 10:29:44 2010 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2010 10:29:44 -0500 Subject: FF: Compaq SLT/286 and Acorn manuals (Cambridge, UK) In-Reply-To: <000501cb13e1$188a0960$499e1c20$@com> References: <000501cb13e1$188a0960$499e1c20$@com> Message-ID: <4C2CB468.6080105@gmail.com> James Tornes wrote: > Jules, > > A while ago you posted that you had the manual and discs for a Compaq > SLT/286. Do you by chance still have them? If so does it include the > Supplemental Programs disc? Wow - that must have been a while ago; I moved from the UK toward the end of 2007, so it must have been before then (you've also hit a mailing list rather than me as an individual, just in case you didn't realise!) I'm afraid that the manual and disks have almost certainly gone - I really don't remember if they found homes in the end, either. There's a very slim chance I kept the disks (simply because I could re-use them), but if I do still have them, they'll be in storage and I'm not sure when I'll get them shipped over to where I live now :-( If nobody else on the list can help, I'd suggest prodding a few computer museums to see if they have one of the systems and the disks. cheers Jules From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Jul 1 11:29:52 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2010 12:29:52 -0400 Subject: Iomega Bernoulli Box 20+20 (A220H) In-Reply-To: <4C2B926E.31309.2744EFC@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4C2BE903.5010004@brutman.com> <4C2B926E.31309.2744EFC@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4C2CC280.5020508@neurotica.com> On 6/30/10 9:52 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > I like the old Bernoulli boxes very much. Because of the physics of > the thing (Bernoulli's principle), the disks were pretty much > uncrashable. ... > Great stuff and very much unlike the Zip and Jaz abominations. Agreed 100%. I used Bernoulli drives for years, the 10+10 and 20+20 eight-inchers both at home and at work, and then the 5.25" drives (mainly 44MB) at work. The latter are standard generic SCSI and seemed to be compatible with pretty much everything. I've seen ONE lose data, once, due to physical contamination. Otherwise they were extremely reliable. For a time about ten years ago, the 5.25" Bernoulli drives were appearing at scrappers by the hundreds. I really regret not having grabbed a drive or two. They'd be very handy now for PDP-11 hacking. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jul 1 11:58:35 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2010 09:58:35 -0700 Subject: Iomega Bernoulli Box 20+20 (A220H) In-Reply-To: <4C2CC280.5020508@neurotica.com> References: <4C2BE903.5010004@brutman.com>, <4C2B926E.31309.2744EFC@cclist.sydex.com>, <4C2CC280.5020508@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4C2C66CB.26574.60A4E7@cclist.sydex.com> On 1 Jul 2010 at 12:29, Dave McGuire wrote: > For a time about ten years ago, the 5.25" Bernoulli drives were > appearing at scrappers by the hundreds. I really regret not having > grabbed a drive or two. They'd be very handy now for PDP-11 hacking. Even the 5.25" units were built like tanks. I still have a dual 90MB unit here that occasionally sees use. The largest made was, what, 230MB? I think the thing that doomed them was the price--they weren't cheap and the bytes-per-buck got to be too low for competition. The same with MO drives probably holds. I may still have a Pinnacle Apex 4.3GB drive here somewhere. In addition to being somewhat delicate, it was very expensive when compared to a standard IDE drive. I don't consider the later cheap removable-media drives like Zip, Jaz, Sparq... to be in the same reliability category as the Bernoullis. It's a shame that the technology was abandoned. --Chuck From tshoppa at wmata.com Thu Jul 1 12:14:12 2010 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim) Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2010 13:14:12 -0400 Subject: Iomega Bernoulli Box 20+20 (A220H) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > The same with MO drives probably holds. I may still have a Pinnacle > Apex 4.3GB drive here somewhere. In addition to being somewhat > delicate, it was very expensive when compared to a standard IDE > drive. > I don't consider the later cheap removable-media drives like Zip, > Jaz, Sparq... to be in the same reliability category as the > Bernoullis. It's a shame that the technology was abandoned. MO drives still have a few holdouts, in the worlds radiology and graphic arts. But CD-R and DVD-R have come to dominate even in those holdout areas. In the radiology world variants on the RT-11 filesystem are still found today on MO drives, although the data hasn't passed through a real PDP-11 in decades. Tim. From teoz at neo.rr.com Thu Jul 1 12:33:13 2010 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2010 13:33:13 -0400 Subject: Iomega Bernoulli Box 20+20 (A220H) References: <4C2BE903.5010004@brutman.com>, <4C2B926E.31309.2744EFC@cclist.sydex.com>, <4C2CC280.5020508@neurotica.com> <4C2C66CB.26574.60A4E7@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <66A26E1150544C9A8CDA093DF4089C15@dell8300> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chuck Guzis" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, July 01, 2010 12:58 PM Subject: Re: Iomega Bernoulli Box 20+20 (A220H) > On 1 Jul 2010 at 12:29, Dave McGuire wrote: > >> For a time about ten years ago, the 5.25" Bernoulli drives were >> appearing at scrappers by the hundreds. I really regret not having >> grabbed a drive or two. They'd be very handy now for PDP-11 hacking. > > Even the 5.25" units were built like tanks. I still have a dual 90MB > unit here that occasionally sees use. The largest made was, what, > 230MB? > > I think the thing that doomed them was the price--they weren't cheap > and the bytes-per-buck got to be too low for competition. > > The same with MO drives probably holds. I may still have a Pinnacle > Apex 4.3GB drive here somewhere. In addition to being somewhat > delicate, it was very expensive when compared to a standard IDE > drive. > > I don't consider the later cheap removable-media drives like Zip, > Jaz, Sparq... to be in the same reliability category as the > Bernoullis. It's a shame that the technology was abandoned. > > --Chuck > I had the chance to pick up a few Bernouli 5.25" drives 5 years ago for free with media and passed, instead I loaded my car up with a 1.3GB MO drive and 100 carts (40 or so NIB). These days when I actually collect computers that came before the 386 era I kind of regret not grabbing the Bernouli drives. Zip, Jazz, and Sparc do not seem as rugged as the Syquest 44/88MB carts I do have (they look like HD platters). Were the Bernouli 5.25" some kind of super flexible floppy? From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Jul 1 12:38:03 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2010 13:38:03 -0400 Subject: Iomega Bernoulli Box 20+20 (A220H) In-Reply-To: <4C2C66CB.26574.60A4E7@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4C2BE903.5010004@brutman.com>, <4C2B926E.31309.2744EFC@cclist.sydex.com>, <4C2CC280.5020508@neurotica.com> <4C2C66CB.26574.60A4E7@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4C2CD27B.7060405@neurotica.com> On 7/1/10 12:58 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> For a time about ten years ago, the 5.25" Bernoulli drives were >> appearing at scrappers by the hundreds. I really regret not having >> grabbed a drive or two. They'd be very handy now for PDP-11 hacking. > > Even the 5.25" units were built like tanks. I still have a dual 90MB > unit here that occasionally sees use. The largest made was, what, > 230MB? > > I think the thing that doomed them was the price--they weren't cheap > and the bytes-per-buck got to be too low for competition. > > The same with MO drives probably holds. I may still have a Pinnacle > Apex 4.3GB drive here somewhere. In addition to being somewhat > delicate, it was very expensive when compared to a standard IDE > drive. > > I don't consider the later cheap removable-media drives like Zip, > Jaz, Sparq... to be in the same reliability category as the > Bernoullis. It's a shame that the technology was abandoned. Absolutely; the decline started with the Zip drives. They are cute, but terribly unreliable and generally a pain in the butt to deal with. The Bernoullis were practically indestructible. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jul 1 14:15:28 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2010 12:15:28 -0700 Subject: Iomega Bernoulli Box 20+20 (A220H) In-Reply-To: <66A26E1150544C9A8CDA093DF4089C15@dell8300> References: <4C2BE903.5010004@brutman.com>, <66A26E1150544C9A8CDA093DF4089C15@dell8300> Message-ID: <4C2C86E0.15538.DDF3F2@cclist.sydex.com> On 1 Jul 2010 at 13:33, Teo Zenios wrote: > Zip, Jazz, and Sparc do not seem as rugged as the Syquest 44/88MB > carts I do have (they look like HD platters). Were the Bernouli 5.25" > some kind of super flexible floppy? A non-contact floppy, yes. The Bernoulli effect creates a thin, but stable gap. Without bothering to grab a cartridge, I seem to remember that Bernoulli media was hard-sectored as well. On the subject of interesting applications of the Bernoulli effect, I found this paper on a wall-climbing robot that uses the effect to cling to a vertical surface: http://tinyurl.com/23gw54e --Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jul 1 14:11:49 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2010 20:11:49 +0100 (BST) Subject: (OT) Laserjet III laser scanner module In-Reply-To: <20100630133420.S66773@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Jun 30, 10 01:40:10 pm Message-ID: > > On Wed, 30 Jun 2010, Tony Duell wrote: > > Yes, Most semiconductior sensors, such as CCDs, respond to near-IR. I am > > told you can 'see' most remote cotnrol outputs using one, for examplke. > > > One should be able to check things by using a digital camera to view with. > > Quite likely. The problem is that it was _me_ who was setting up this CX > > laser scanner module, and I am sure you know by now the sort of cameras I > > have :-) > > Is Ektachrome IR no longer available? (~35 years since I used any) I;ve not looked for it for some years.. > Although E6 is the recommended processing, it can work with a lot of > stuff, even C41 to produce an unmasked negative. Err, yes... But if I am setting up the optics in a laser printer scanner, I want to be able to dtect where the beam is (roughly) going and then tweak the lenses/mirrors to get it where I want it. Not take a photo, process the bit of film and then tweak the scanner optics, take another photo, etc. I assume if you use a digital camera for this, you observe the results on the built-in LCD monitor of the digital camera, you don't take picutres, upload them to a computerm and then try to analyse them. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jul 1 14:18:50 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2010 20:18:50 +0100 (BST) Subject: (OT) Laserjet III laser scanner module In-Reply-To: <4C2BC971.1060708@tx.rr.com> from "Charlie Carothers" at Jun 30, 10 05:47:13 pm Message-ID: > >> Although=2C I've not tried this=2C it was mentioned that most digital came= > >> ras > >> have some sensitivity to IR ( even though they have filters to block most )= > > > > Yes, Most semiconductior sensors, such as CCDs, respond to near-IR. I am > > told you can 'see' most remote cotnrol outputs using one, for examplke. > Yes, you can. Also, IR item presence detectors in the paper handling > equipment I sometimes work with. A small digital camera can be a very > handy diagnostic instrument at times. Of course one could build I susptct it's actually more like what you said later... If you have a digital camera around, you can use it for this, but it's not necessirily the best tool for the job, and it's probably not worth getting one solely to use as an IR dtector. > something much simpler and smaller using not very many components which > would serve as well or better. Actually probably quite a lot better as When I was setting uphe CX scanner, I used a simple remote control tester that I'd built from a Mpalin kit. A photodiode driving a 3 transisor (I think -- it's certainly discrete transistors, no ICs) amplifier, driving an LED. The amplifier is AC coupled, so it responds well to the flickering IR output of the average TV remote control. It also responds to the IR laser beam from the CX scanner being swept across the ptoodikode by the spinning mirror. So by holding the photodiode in various positions I could see where the sweeping beam was going. And I have to say that 3 transisotrs is a lot fewer than the number you find in a digital camera :-) -tony From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Thu Jul 1 15:34:38 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2010 21:34:38 +0100 Subject: (OT) Laserjet III laser scanner module In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C2CFBDE.3000304@philpem.me.uk> On 01/07/10 20:11, Tony Duell wrote: > Err, yes... But if I am setting up the optics in a laser printer scanner, > I want to be able to dtect where the beam is (roughly) going and then > tweak the lenses/mirrors to get it where I want it. Indeed. It's even more useful to get an instant response when you're setting up the focus... Getting down to 0.08mm is going to be interesting, what with beam-scatter and fluorescence. And I really don't like the idea of using a focus-finder to set it up... viewing a laser through a magnifying lens seems like a really dumb idea to me, even with safety goggles. "Fun". And no, Ektachrome IR isn't available any more -- it was discontinued a few years ago. Ilford SFX is, but that isn't technically an IR film; it's sensitive to short-wave IR, but also sensitive to natural light, and is basically insensitive to long-wave IR (heat-IR)... -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From prd at decarchive.org Thu Jul 1 09:24:30 2010 From: prd at decarchive.org (Peter Dreisiger) Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2010 22:24:30 +0800 Subject: Classic Computing Appreciation Night starting up in Perth, Australia Message-ID: <0DCDC6D2-C9B8-465E-85AE-2D11C5A04E1F@decarchive.org> Hello all, This is just a short email to let the West Australian members know that the Artifactory, Perth's very own Hackerspace (in the correct sense of the word), has started hosting a regular, fortnightly event called 'Classic Computing Appreciation Night'. Several of our current members have at least a passing interest in collecting, restoring and setting up classic computers; as this event is being run in conjunction with our 'Circuit Hacking Mondays', there should also be at least one or two people around to help with the troubleshooting and repair of your favourite micro- or mini-computer. The space's electronics facilities include several soldering stations and CROs, PAL/SECAM/NTSC and analogue RGB monitors, a logic analyser and an (E)EPROM programmer. Depending on the demand, there may also be a PC capable of reading from, and writing to, most common 3.5" and 5.25" floppy disk and tape formats; we also have a fairly respectable collection of OS installation kits for many DEC, SUN, HP, SGI, IBM RS/6000, Apple, Commodore and Amiga systems. And for the particularly adventurous, the space also has a home-designed and built CNC milling machine and a RepRap 3D printer that could be used to machine or (literally) print replacement parts and panels. The space is located in Mount Lawley, and all are welcome. Advice and ideas are free; workshop use is free for members of the hackerspace, or $10 waged/$5 unwaged. See http://wiki.artifactory.org.au/doku.php?id=projects:classiccmp for more details of the event, and http://hackerspaces.org and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hackerspace for information about the hackerspace movement in general. Hope to see some of you there, Peter From tpeters at mixcom.com Thu Jul 1 17:19:10 2010 From: tpeters at mixcom.com (Tom Peters) Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2010 17:19:10 -0500 Subject: Iomega Bernoulli Box 20+20 (A220H) In-Reply-To: <4C2BE903.5010004@brutman.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20100701171352.0ba34848@localhost> At 08:01 PM 6/30/2010 -0500, you wrote: >I rescued one of these ancient Bernoulli boxes today. It uses the >large (8") cartridges at 20MB each, and it has two slots for the cartridges. > >Other than for hearing some of the folklore about the drives, I don't know >much about it. I'd like to see it run and be usable, but I need some help. > >- Is it SCSI? If so, what's the pinout on the back? It has a 37 pin >female connector that I'm not familiar with if it is SCSI. > >- Where is the head mechanism? Is it fairly robust and protected if there >are no cartridges inserted? This one has no major dents, but it has not >been babied either. I don't want to waste time on it if it's just going >to be a heartache. (I have enough of that already.) > >- Cartridges look like they are on eBay. They are cheap enough for me to >experiment with. > >- Is there anything I should know about these beasts before I attempt >powering on and working with it? Oh man, remember when 20mb of storage, especially REMOVEABLE STORAGE, was a WHOLE LOT OF SPACE! I still have my dual 20mb and about 10 cartriges, and an ISA bus interface card. I've always wanted to get it working just for demonstration/nostalgia purposes. When I bought it, it came with 5 cartridges. The IT manager at the foundry (real metal formers, these guys) wasn't too up on stuff, so he insisted that the cartridges be bulk-erased before I could have them. Since the cartridges have a servo track on them that the drive depends on, those 5 were forevermore useless. But they had 5 more I managed to talk them into NOT bulking-- they erased them using some formatting utility. If anyone figures out how to run them off my Adaptec 2940 cards, let me know. 73 de N9QQB ----- 1006. There is no reason for any individual to have a computer in their home. -- Ken Olson (President of Digital Equipment Corporation) at the Convention of the World Future Society in Boston in 1977 --... ...-- -.. . -. ----. --.- --.- -... tpeters at nospam.mixcom.com (remove "nospam") N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) WEB: http://www.mixcom.com/tpeters 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W, Elevation 815', Grid Square EN53wc WAN/LAN/Telcom Analyst, Tech Writer, MCP, CCNA, Registered Linux User 385531 From silent700 at gmail.com Thu Jul 1 19:44:04 2010 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2010 19:44:04 -0500 Subject: Fwd: [rescue] Fwd: Sun3 machines in Scranton PA In-Reply-To: <4C2D0346.80009@supposedly.org> References: <4C2D0346.80009@supposedly.org> Message-ID: Forwarded from the rescue list...these are a favorite of mine but unfortunately I am unable to retrieve them. Hope someone does! ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Bill Green Date: Thu, Jul 1, 2010 at 4:06 PM Subject: [rescue] Fwd: Sun3 machines in Scranton PA To: rescue at sunhelp.org Hello, I just saw the below on comp.sys.sun.hardware. It doesn't look like it's been posted here. ---------------------- From: billg999 at cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Newsgroups: comp.sys.sun.hardware Subject: Sun 3's for rescue Date: 22 Jun 2010 19:08:40 GMT Anybody here close enough to travel to Scranton, PA interested in saving a couple of Sun3 Ddeskside pedestels from the landfill? Might have some stuff shortly and trying to line up a way to keep them alive for at least a little while longer. bill -- Bill Gunshannon ? ? ? ? ?| ?de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. ?Three wolves billg999 at cs.scranton.edu | ?and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton ? | Scranton, Pennsylvania ? | ? ? ? ? #include _______________________________________________ rescue list - http://www.sunhelp.org/mailman/listinfo/rescue From bryan.pope at comcast.net Thu Jul 1 19:49:17 2010 From: bryan.pope at comcast.net (Bryan Pope) Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2010 20:49:17 -0400 Subject: Commodore PET 64 for sale... Message-ID: <4C2D378D.1030503@comcast.net> Another great item for sale from my collection: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=190412195573 Cheers, Bryan From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Jul 1 21:59:42 2010 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2010 19:59:42 -0700 Subject: Commodore PET 64 for sale... In-Reply-To: <4C2D378D.1030503@comcast.net> References: <4C2D378D.1030503@comcast.net> Message-ID: At 8:49 PM -0400 7/1/10, Bryan Pope wrote: >Another great item for sale from my collection: > >http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=190412195573 Now that's a cool C-64! Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From csquared3 at tx.rr.com Thu Jul 1 20:12:30 2010 From: csquared3 at tx.rr.com (Charlie Carothers) Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2010 20:12:30 -0500 Subject: (OT) Laserjet III laser scanner module In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C2D3CFE.2010304@tx.rr.com> Tony Duell wrote: >>>> Although=2C I've not tried this=2C it was mentioned that most digital came= >>>> ras >>>> have some sensitivity to IR ( even though they have filters to block most )= >>> Yes, Most semiconductior sensors, such as CCDs, respond to near-IR. I am >>> told you can 'see' most remote cotnrol outputs using one, for examplke. >> Yes, you can. Also, IR item presence detectors in the paper handling >> equipment I sometimes work with. A small digital camera can be a very >> handy diagnostic instrument at times. Of course one could build > > I susptct it's actually more like what you said later... If you have a > digital camera around, you can use it for this, but it's not necessirily > the best tool for the job, and it's probably not worth getting one solely > to use as an IR dtector. Quite so! I've only used one for that because it was immediately available at the moment of need. > >> something much simpler and smaller using not very many components which >> would serve as well or better. Actually probably quite a lot better as > > When I was setting uphe CX scanner, I used a simple remote control tester > that I'd built from a Mpalin kit. A photodiode driving a 3 transisor (I > think -- it's certainly discrete transistors, no ICs) amplifier, driving > an LED. The amplifier is AC coupled, so it responds well to the > flickering IR output of the average TV remote control. That's pretty much what I had in mind, though I must admit I was thinking of a cheap op-amp of some sort. Discrete transistors are good too, though. :-) I happen to have several old "hermetically sealed" 0-1ma meters and though it would make the "display unit" unnecessarily large I somehow find the idea of using one of those as the output indicator appealing somehow. I'm probably just pipe-dreaming a way to finally use one of those. Of course there's no real reason not to use both if desired - might take 1 more transistor at most or maybe just a couple of current divider resistors - pump say 0-10ma through the LED and 1/10th of that through the meter. Something like that... > > It also responds to the IR laser beam from the CX scanner being swept > across the ptoodikode by the spinning mirror. So by holding the > photodiode in various positions I could see where the sweeping beam was > going. > > And I have to say that 3 transisotrs is a lot fewer than the number you > find in a digital camera :-) > > -tony > From silent700 at gmail.com Thu Jul 1 22:40:03 2010 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2010 22:40:03 -0500 Subject: Commodore PET 64 for sale... In-Reply-To: References: <4C2D378D.1030503@comcast.net> Message-ID: > At 8:49 PM -0400 7/1/10, Bryan Pope wrote: >> Another great item for sale from my collection: >> >> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=190412195573 I know it says different ROM version in your auction description, but how exactly does this model differ from the Educator 64 (one of which is also up on ebay at the moment?) -- jht From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Thu Jul 1 22:45:23 2010 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2010 22:45:23 -0500 Subject: Iomega Bernoulli Box 20+20 (A220H) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20100701171352.0ba34848@localhost> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20100701171352.0ba34848@localhost> Message-ID: <4C2D60D3.5010308@brutman.com> I need a source for a cable and cartridges. There are some cartridges on eBay that I can throw a few bucks at, but the cable is a little more difficult. Does anybody know of a good source for off-the-wall SCSI cabling? I'd like to run this from a SCSI 1 or SCSI 2 card, and I have a variety of cabling that has Centronics or DB25 connectors. But the DB37 is foreign to me, so I need to find a cable or an adapter for my existing cables. I have a PCjr with a native SCSI sidecar. It's just screaming 'Bernoulli!' Mike From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jul 1 23:09:36 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2010 21:09:36 -0700 Subject: Iomega Bernoulli Box 20+20 (A220H) In-Reply-To: <4C2D60D3.5010308@brutman.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20100701171352.0ba34848@localhost>, <4C2D60D3.5010308@brutman.com> Message-ID: <4C2D0410.1615.2C6F772@cclist.sydex.com> On 1 Jul 2010 at 22:45, Michael B. Brutman wrote: > Does anybody know of a good source for off-the-wall SCSI cabling? I'd > like to run this from a SCSI 1 or SCSI 2 card, and I have a variety of > cabling that has Centronics or DB25 connectors. But the DB37 is > foreign to me, so I need to find a cable or an adapter for my existing > cables. The original 5.25" PC2 cable was a DC37F on the controller end and a 50-position "Amphenol"/"Blue Ribbon"/"Telco"/"Centronics" male at the far end of the cable that hooked to the drive. But I've got the ugly suspicion that going from a DB25 to a DC37 is going to be an exercise for your crimpers and some multiconductor round cable. It's been a long time since I've seen a DC37 Novell/Procomp SCSI cable. --Chuck From wayne.smith at charter.net Fri Jul 2 01:14:35 2010 From: wayne.smith at charter.net (Wayne Smith) Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2010 23:14:35 -0700 Subject: Don Maslin - Death of Winnie Maslin In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Don't know if this has been posted here yet, but Don Maslin's widow, Winnie, died on 12/15/09. Here is the obit: "Bristol Maslin "Winnie" (1928-2009) Bristol "Winnie" Maslin died peacefully at her home in La Jolla on Christmas night, Dec. 25, 2009. Winnie was a long time resident of San Diego and La Jolla. She was an active member of The La Jolla Villagers and the Social Service League of La Jolla, Darlington House. Winnie was born on April 7, 1928, to Mary and Bristol Moore in Bardwell, Kentucky. Her family moved to Toledo, Ohio, where she grew up. She graduated from Scott High School in Toledo. Winnie came to San Diego as a young woman where she had a long career at Fireman's Fund Insurance as an Underwriter. She is preceded in death by her husband of 45 years, Donald Maslin, the love of her life. Her life with Don was full and exciting as they traveled the world and enjoyed many wonderful experiences together. They had many close friends as well, with whom they shared their life. With no children of their own, they were especially close to her sister's family in San Diego. Winnie is survived by her sister and brother-in-law, Ann and Hal Heist of San Diego; nieces, Deborah Sharpe and Dawn Thompson of San Diego; nephew, David Heist of Livermore, Ca.; and many grandnieces and nephews. She had an especially close friendship with her only sibling, Ann. The family will greatly miss our sweet aunt who enjoyed life, parties, laughter, family and friends. Winnie's ashes will be scattered at sea where her husband Don's were scattered five years ago. They are together again. A celebration of Winnie's life will be held on Sunday, Jan. 10, at her beloved home in La Jolla, overlooking the beauty of the La Jolla Shores." Here is the link: http://www.legacy.com/obituaries/signonsandiego/obituary.aspx?n=bristo l-maslin-winnie&pid=138344556 Checked the real property database for San Diego county and it doesn't appear that the house has sold yet. I can share addresses and some phone numbers of the family offline if anyone wants to try and initiate contact. Best bet might be nephew David Heist of Livermore, CA, former owner of Hoptown Brewery. Who lives in Livermor - Sellam? -W From bryan.pope at comcast.net Fri Jul 2 06:45:23 2010 From: bryan.pope at comcast.net (Bryan Pope) Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2010 07:45:23 -0400 Subject: Commodore PET 64 for sale... In-Reply-To: References: <4C2D378D.1030503@comcast.net> Message-ID: <4C2DD153.1050204@comcast.net> On 7/1/2010 11:40 PM, Jason T wrote: >> At 8:49 PM -0400 7/1/10, Bryan Pope wrote: >> >>> Another great item for sale from my collection: >>> >>> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=190412195573 >>> > I know it says different ROM version in your auction description, but > how exactly does this model differ from the Educator 64 (one of which > is also up on ebay at the moment?) > There is a different startup screen (the first picture shows this) and there is interrupt code to prevent anyone from changing the color of the border or background. If you try to do say a POKE 53281,5 the screen will flash like the 64 is changing the "color" to what you want, but then the color is changed right back. I have read there is a POKE that will disable this interrupt, but it is only temporary. Also, there is no headphone jack, speaker or audio amplifier inside the case like on the Educator 64. And on the motherboard, there is no RF modulator. Cheers, Bryan From bqt at softjar.se Fri Jul 2 03:35:17 2010 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2010 10:35:17 +0200 Subject: yet another pdp-11 in fgpa In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C2DA4C5.8040209@softjar.se> Eric Smith wrote: > Johnny Billquist wrote: >> Another way to name them would perhaps be: >> >> KB11-B - Old 11/70 CPU with synch FPP. >> KB11-C - New 11/70 CPU with asynch FPP. >> KB11-CM - MP modified KB11-C >> KB11-E(?) - The new 11/74 CPU with asynch FPP and CIS. >> >> I seem to remember reading somewhere that the 11/74 CPU were to be >> called KB11-E, but I also have this nagging feeling that KB11-E might >> have been the 11/44, or possibly the 11/60. > > The 11/44 CPU was a KD11-Z. The 11/60 CPU was a KD11-K. That might be correct. >> Now, as I myself pointed out, RSX regards the 11/70mP as an 11/74, and >> that is also what the CPU identification code in RSX calls it. > > Since the 11/70mp and 11/74 were never official products, there was a > lot of conflation of the designations. Without the optional CIS, > software can't easily distinguish an 11/70mp from an 11/74, so it > probably simply didn't bother to try. Thus whether software reports the > CPU as an 11/70mp or an 11/74 doesn't really prove much of anything. Indeed. Which I think I tried pointing out. >> But if we call this an 11/74, what shall we call the 11/70 with CIS? > > Fantasy? There wasn't such a thing, since there wasn't an 11/70 with a > KB11-E CPU that was necessary to accomodate the KE74-A CIS. Then you are saying that Don North's work on the CIS microcode for the 11/74 is a figment of his imagination? And the results they got back from running performance tests on this hardware? I think it's just easier, for this discussion, to call that the 11/74, and call the multiprocessor PDP-11s that went out to field test, and which also were kept running inside DEC until not long ago, 11/70mP. Mind you - just for this discussion. Otherwise I'm just happy to keep calling CASTOR:: an 11/74, just as my emulated 11/74 (MIM::), which also don't have CIS... Johnny From bqt at softjar.se Fri Jul 2 04:08:37 2010 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2010 11:08:37 +0200 Subject: yet another pdp-11 in fgpa In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C2DAC95.1020900@softjar.se> allison wrote: > On 06/30/2010 11:27 AM, Johnny Billquist wrote: >> > I'll reply to this one last time, and then I'll give up. (I can't seem to keep out, can I? :-) ) > I can't add too much to this regarding what parts and what DEC > designators applied > but here are memories of the time frame. > > The first multiprocessor 11/70 was built with existing hardware and a few > wire wrap and jumper mods. Memory said there were 4 total, three inside DEC > and one at CMU that they hacked together possibly with DEC help. CMU did multiprocessor PDP-11s before DEC did, I think. However, they went about it differently than the 11/74 (or whatever you want to call it). Search for C.MMP and similar stuff on the net for more information about CMUs multiprocessor PDP-11 projects. The 11/74 systems were designed and built inhouse, although they might have talked with CMU to get help, experience and whatnot. Reportedly more than three systems were built. Rumors have it that they even had some systems out to external customers for test, but all systems were returned at the end of the tests (even though there is a persistent rumor about Ontario Hydro keeping their). I think I know of/heard of three systems that were in use inside DEC long after the system was officially cancelled. We had, of course, CASTOR:: which was the RSX engineering system, and which was up and running as late as 2002 (2005?) or so. This was a 4-CPU system. Then we had POLLUX::, which I think was a 2-CPU system. Not sure, but I think it might have been DECnet engineering who had it. The third I've heard about is PHEANX:: which might have been POLLUX:: after a move to field service, and possibly also using bits and pieces from other places inside DEC. As far as I know, all of these systems, as well as the ones gone out on field test, were KB11-CM cpus. So, no CIS option ever made it out of prototypes, nor any KB11-E. The boards from the 11/74 systems that were returned were allegedly used in plain 11/70 machines inside DEC afterwards. They were, after all, plug compatible with the normal 11/70 systems. The KB11-E boards would not have been that, though. > It > would evolve > to a design project to make that buildable as marketing felt they could > sell it. > However at the same time VAX/11/780 was real and also the various product > groups were feeling the effects of FCCs new class A and B limits for > RFI/EMI. > That and the high end market had been moving to more addressable memory > for bigger datasets and computationally wider data words as the tasks were > getting bigger. At that time the big calculations that were important were > atomic physics and weather models and both were associated with massive > [by that eras measure] datasets. In many respects the same pressures > repeated > themselves in the 32bit to 64bit evolution [Alpha]. Indeed. But looking at the papers on the 11/74, their aim was more towards high availability. Thus the total redundancy in the system, as well as the ability to bring CPUs and memory on- and offline while the system is running, and even run diagnostics on one CPU while the others were serving. Even going as far as being able to physically remove hardware from a running system. So, high performance and large memory applications were not the target of the 11/74. In fact, a 4 CPU 11/74 had about three times the performance of an 11/70, but that was only aggregated performance. A single task ran no faster on an 11/74 than on an 11/70. Possibly slower. The question I think DEC asked itself wether there would be more point in just selling four 11/70 machines to the customer, or one 11/74. And four 11/70 won. I know that RFI/EMI became a problem around this time. I think that originally DEC planned to stop the 11/70 because of this, but since it was such a popular machine, and no real replacement existed for quite a while (the VAX was not a good enough replacement for an 11/70 in some applications, mostly realtime), they were eventually forced to redesign the 11/70, and that is where the DEC Datasystem 570 came from. So the 11/70 in the corporate cabinet was ok with regards to RFI/EMI radiation, while the older style full height (H960?) cabinets are not. Or at least that is my understanding. > It was my understanding that the 11/70 continued as a grandfathered > EMI and the new multiple cpu died due to EMI issues (plethora of cables > and multiple racks) and it was a faster number cruncher than VAX-11/780. > The VAX had higher potential as the new reigning super minicomputer. It > wasn't long after that I'd seen a VAX-11/782, 785 and VAXclusters. The long cables from multiple CPUs to the memory boxes might have been an problem with RFI/EMI in an 11/74, I don't know. But the 11/74 machines I have seen in pictures have been in the newer corporate cabinets, which would imply that they were designed to pass the RFI/EMI requirements. > There were several of the PDP11 flavors that would die or morph as a > result of manufacturing and serviceability issues. I bet. :-) Johnny From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Jul 2 09:01:59 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2010 07:01:59 -0700 Subject: yet another pdp-11 in fgpa In-Reply-To: <4C2DA4C5.8040209@softjar.se> References: <4C2DA4C5.8040209@softjar.se> Message-ID: <4C2DF157.8040503@brouhaha.com> Johnny Billquist wrote: > But if we call this an 11/74, what shall we call the 11/70 with CIS? I wrote: > Fantasy? There wasn't such a thing, since there wasn't an 11/70 with a > KB11-E CPU that was necessary to accomodate the KE74-A CIS. Johnny wrote: > Then you are saying that Don North's work on the CIS microcode > for the 11/74 is a figment of his imagination? Not at all. I'm saying that it wasn't an 11/70, and that no 11/70 had CIS. He seems to agree with me. Eric From rlaag at pacbell.net Fri Jul 2 12:47:22 2010 From: rlaag at pacbell.net (Robert Laag) Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2010 10:47:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Conecting new printer to a 286 Message-ID: <612340.69044.qm@web180412.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> I have an old 286 computer i use for tasks that won't run on a newer maching... My old printer is dead and when trying to connect a new printer it doesn't work...? What can i do to get the newer printers like lexmark to go with the old 286 HP VECTRA???? TNX From blkline at attglobal.net Fri Jul 2 13:04:47 2010 From: blkline at attglobal.net (Barry L. Kline) Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2010 14:04:47 -0400 Subject: Conecting new printer to a 286 In-Reply-To: <612340.69044.qm@web180412.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <612340.69044.qm@web180412.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4C2E2A3F.8030200@attglobal.net> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Robert Laag wrote: > I have an old 286 computer i use for tasks that won't run on a newer > maching... My old printer is dead and when trying to connect a new > printer it doesn't work... What can i do to get the newer printers > like lexmark to go with the old 286 HP VECTRA??? TNX > Lotsa luck. Many of those types of printers use drivers which moved the processing from the printer to the computer, thus making them much cheaper. You'd be better served finding a working LJIII or other printer that would be the same vintage as your computer and connecting that. Barry -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFMLio/CFu3bIiwtTARAio3AKCFmJyKXigR/y0sahhyP4wCJm4M8QCeOAxD oOpzc0cToILgKFFvQLmdBx0= =BQhN -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From teoz at neo.rr.com Fri Jul 2 13:39:08 2010 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2010 14:39:08 -0400 Subject: Conecting new printer to a 286 References: <612340.69044.qm@web180412.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4C2E2A3F.8030200@attglobal.net> Message-ID: <58EE5944FEC44B0AB3FEA38D2E1295BC@dell8300> New printers use a bidirectional printer port, does the 286 allow that (old machines were not bi directional, and you might need to set that option in the BIOS). No idea if the new printers have anything besides USB, or if they emulate the old HP laserjets anymore. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Barry L. Kline" To: ; "Discussion at blkline.com :On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Friday, July 02, 2010 2:04 PM Subject: Re: Conecting new printer to a 286 > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > Robert Laag wrote: >> I have an old 286 computer i use for tasks that won't run on a newer >> maching... My old printer is dead and when trying to connect a new >> printer it doesn't work... What can i do to get the newer printers >> like lexmark to go with the old 286 HP VECTRA??? TNX >> > > Lotsa luck. Many of those types of printers use drivers which moved the > processing from the printer to the computer, thus making them much > cheaper. > > You'd be better served finding a working LJIII or other printer that > would be the same vintage as your computer and connecting that. > > Barry > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) > > iD8DBQFMLio/CFu3bIiwtTARAio3AKCFmJyKXigR/y0sahhyP4wCJm4M8QCeOAxD > oOpzc0cToILgKFFvQLmdBx0= > =BQhN > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jul 2 01:29:13 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2010 07:29:13 +0100 (BST) Subject: (OT) Laserjet III laser scanner module In-Reply-To: <4C2CFBDE.3000304@philpem.me.uk> from "Philip Pemberton" at Jul 1, 10 09:34:38 pm Message-ID: > > On 01/07/10 20:11, Tony Duell wrote: > > Err, yes... But if I am setting up the optics in a laser printer scanner, > > I want to be able to dtect where the beam is (roughly) going and then > > tweak the lenses/mirrors to get it where I want it. > > Indeed. It's even more useful to get an instant response when you're > setting up the focus... Yes, of course you're replacing the laser, so you have to re-focus/colimate the beam. Fortunately when I was assembly the CX scanner, I on;y had to make sure the beak was going in the right places... > > Getting down to 0.08mm is going to be interesting, what with > beam-scatter and fluorescence. And I really don't like the idea of using > a focus-finder to set it up... viewing a laser through a magnifying lens > seems like a really dumb idea to me, even with safety goggles. 'Do not look up this laser beam with your remaining eye' :-) When I have a chance I;ll dig out what schematics I have of the CX and SX enginers and get copies to you... -tony From afra at aurigae.demon.co.uk Fri Jul 2 13:47:35 2010 From: afra at aurigae.demon.co.uk (Phill Harvey-Smith) Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2010 19:47:35 +0100 Subject: Conecting new printer to a 286 In-Reply-To: <58EE5944FEC44B0AB3FEA38D2E1295BC@dell8300> References: <612340.69044.qm@web180412.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4C2E2A3F.8030200@attglobal.net> <58EE5944FEC44B0AB3FEA38D2E1295BC@dell8300> Message-ID: <4C2E3447.9040808@aurigae.demon.co.uk> Teo Zenios wrote: > New printers use a bidirectional printer port, does the 286 allow that > (old machines were not bi directional, and you might need to set that > option in the BIOS). I don't know if not being bi-directional stopped printers working, I think you just got better performance if it was bidirectional. > No idea if the new printers have anything besides USB, or if they > emulate the old HP laserjets anymore. It's a shame really that the USB->Printer protocol, is a closed paid for standard, as it should be really simple to use a USB enabled microcontroler to sit on the paralell port and interface it to a USB printer. Cheers. Phill. -- Phill Harvey-Smith, Programmer, Hardware hacker, and general eccentric ! "You can twist perceptions, but reality won't budge" -- Rush. From pat at computer-refuge.org Fri Jul 2 13:49:33 2010 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2010 14:49:33 -0400 Subject: (OT) Laserjet III laser scanner module In-Reply-To: <4C2CFBDE.3000304@philpem.me.uk> References: <4C2CFBDE.3000304@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <201007021449.33942.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Thursday 01 July 2010, Philip Pemberton wrote: > On 01/07/10 20:11, Tony Duell wrote: > > Err, yes... But if I am setting up the optics in a laser printer > > scanner, I want to be able to dtect where the beam is (roughly) > > going and then tweak the lenses/mirrors to get it where I want it. > > Indeed. It's even more useful to get an instant response when you're > setting up the focus... > > Getting down to 0.08mm is going to be interesting, what with > beam-scatter and fluorescence. And I really don't like the idea of > using a focus-finder to set it up... viewing a laser through a > magnifying lens seems like a really dumb idea to me, even with > safety goggles. This is something that I'd probably try to use a video camera with a good macro lens and appropriate filter to adjust, so that you don't have to worry about directly viewing the laser beam. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jul 2 01:44:08 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2010 07:44:08 +0100 (BST) Subject: (OT) Laserjet III laser scanner module In-Reply-To: <4C2D3CFE.2010304@tx.rr.com> from "Charlie Carothers" at Jul 1, 10 08:12:30 pm Message-ID: > > I susptct it's actually more like what you said later... If you have a > > digital camera around, you can use it for this, but it's not necessirily Actually, thinking back to when I rebuilt the CX printer (early 1990s), I don;t think digitial cameras were common then. CDD image sensor analogue camcorders existed (and were well-known to have a responsie in the near IR), but were not excatly cheap. People who had them would use them to detect IR output from remote cotnrols, but nobody would buy one for that purpose alone. I have never tried on of those IR detector cards -- can you still get them. They are a card about the size of a credit card coated with a special phosphor. You 'charge it up' by exposing it to normal visible light, and then when IR hits it it give a visible glwo. Sold for checking remote cotnrol handsets, I bit it would detect the beam in a laser printer too. > > the best tool for the job, and it's probably not worth getting one solely > > to use as an IR dtector. > Quite so! I've only used one for that because it was immediately > available at the moment of need. Sure... > > > > >> something much simpler and smaller using not very many components which > >> would serve as well or better. Actually probably quite a lot better as > > > > When I was setting uphe CX scanner, I used a simple remote control tester > > that I'd built from a Mpalin kit. A photodiode driving a 3 transisor (I > > think -- it's certainly discrete transistors, no ICs) amplifier, driving > > an LED. The amplifier is AC coupled, so it responds well to the > > flickering IR output of the average TV remote control. > That's pretty much what I had in mind, though I must admit I was > thinking of a cheap op-amp of some sort. Discrete transistors are good I am not sure why this kit didn;'t use an op-amp. There are no bandwidth problems or anything like that. It may (amazingly) have been the physical size. The thing is entirely through-hole (transisotrs in TO92 pacakges, etc) but fits in a 'key fob' case along with a 12V battery to power it. And I[ve had the thing over 15 years and never changed the battery. Yes I do use it sitll (last time was to see if the reason my HP IR printer wasn't doing anything was because the calculator I was using it with wasn't sending anything...) > too, though. :-) I happen to have several old "hermetically sealed" > 0-1ma meters and though it would make the "display unit" unnecessarily > large I somehow find the idea of using one of those as the output > indicator appealing somehow. I'm probably just pipe-dreaming a way to The Maplin tester is entirely qualitiative. If it gets IR, the LED turns on. You can get some idea if a remote control handset is going weak by seeing how far away you can detect it, but nothing more. I think gettting any sort of meaningful scale on a meter would be very hard. The chartacterisitics of the photosensor are probably not that well known (at least not for cheap sensors). Making an IR photometer is a much harder project :-) > finally use one of those. Of course there's no real reason not to use > both if desired - might take 1 more transistor at most or maybe just a > couple of current divider resistors - pump say 0-10ma through the LED > and 1/10th of that through the meter. Something like that... Shunt the meter suitably (a resistor of 1/9th the resistance of the meter coil) and put it in series with the LED? -tony From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Jul 2 13:59:17 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2010 14:59:17 -0400 Subject: Conecting new printer to a 286 In-Reply-To: <58EE5944FEC44B0AB3FEA38D2E1295BC@dell8300> References: <612340.69044.qm@web180412.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4C2E2A3F.8030200@attglobal.net> <58EE5944FEC44B0AB3FEA38D2E1295BC@dell8300> Message-ID: <4C2E3705.7050706@neurotica.com> On 7/2/10 2:39 PM, Teo Zenios wrote: > New printers use a bidirectional printer port, does the 286 allow that > (old machines were not bi directional, and you might need to set that > option in the BIOS). > > No idea if the new printers have anything besides USB, or if they > emulate the old HP laserjets anymore. Most HP laser printers still speak PCL. The serious ones speak Postscript as well. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jul 2 13:59:23 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2010 19:59:23 +0100 (BST) Subject: Conecting new printer to a 286 In-Reply-To: <4C2E3447.9040808@aurigae.demon.co.uk> from "Phill Harvey-Smith" at Jul 2, 10 07:47:35 pm Message-ID: > It's a shame really that the USB->Printer protocol, is a closed paid for > standard, as it should be really simple to use a USB enabled > microcontroler to sit on the paralell port and interface it to a USB > printer. You know, I really did prefer it when the printer manual included a pinout and timing diagram for the (Centronics-ish) interface. There was no problme driving that from anything I wanted to use with it... I really wonder how USB has 'improved' things for the likes of us :-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jul 2 14:00:07 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2010 20:00:07 +0100 (BST) Subject: (OT) Laserjet III laser scanner module In-Reply-To: <201007021449.33942.pat@computer-refuge.org> from "Patrick Finnegan" at Jul 2, 10 02:49:33 pm Message-ID: > > Getting down to 0.08mm is going to be interesting, what with > > beam-scatter and fluorescence. And I really don't like the idea of > > using a focus-finder to set it up... viewing a laser through a > > magnifying lens seems like a really dumb idea to me, even with > > safety goggles. > > This is something that I'd probably try to use a video camera with a > good macro lens and appropriate filter to adjust, so that you don't have > to worry about directly viewing the laser beam. But are replaceemnt CCD sensors for most video cameras any easier to find than replacement eyes? -tony From pat at computer-refuge.org Fri Jul 2 14:10:01 2010 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2010 15:10:01 -0400 Subject: (OT) Laserjet III laser scanner module In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201007021510.01148.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Friday 02 July 2010, Tony Duell wrote: > > > Getting down to 0.08mm is going to be interesting, what with > > > beam-scatter and fluorescence. And I really don't like the idea > > > of using a focus-finder to set it up... viewing a laser through a > > > magnifying lens seems like a really dumb idea to me, even with > > > safety goggles. > > > > This is something that I'd probably try to use a video camera with > > a good macro lens and appropriate filter to adjust, so that you > > don't have to worry about directly viewing the laser beam. > > But are replaceemnt CCD sensors for most video cameras any easier to > find than replacement eyes? Uh, yes, and it's a whole lot easier to replace. Plus, nice, non-HD- capable video cameras should be really inexpensive on the used market these days. You could get a few, and use a few of them to pull spare parts from. It's not like the things are rare or hard to find, if you're not too picky about the exact model. Plus, with the proper filter on the camera, you're unlikely to damage the CCD. I'd much rather risk losing an easily replacable NTSC or PAL video camera than my vision. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jul 2 14:26:06 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2010 20:26:06 +0100 (BST) Subject: (OT) Laserjet III laser scanner module In-Reply-To: <201007021510.01148.pat@computer-refuge.org> from "Patrick Finnegan" at Jul 2, 10 03:10:01 pm Message-ID: > > But are replaceemnt CCD sensors for most video cameras any easier to > > find than replacement eyes? > > Uh, yes, and it's a whole lot easier to replace. Plus, nice, non-HD- My expeirence in getting parts for camcorders suggests that CCDs and human eyes are equally difficult to obtain and replace -- that is almost impossible ;-) > capable video cameras should be really inexpensive on the used market > these days. You could get a few, and use a few of them to pull spare > parts from. It's not like the things are rare or hard to find, if > you're not too picky about the exact model. If you want to replace the image sensor you pretty much do need to get the exact same model (or at least a closely related one...) > > Plus, with the proper filter on the camera, you're unlikely to damage > the CCD. I'd much rather risk losing an easily replacable NTSC or PAL > video camera than my vision. That is problably sensible. I've said many times that hte 3 parts of me that I depend on are my vision, my hands, and my brain. Most other things (legs, hearing, etc) I could maange without (this does not mean I am goign to deliberately harm myself), but I use the first 3 for everything I do... -tony From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Fri Jul 2 14:36:58 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2010 20:36:58 +0100 Subject: (OT) Laserjet III laser scanner module In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C2E3FDA.6060008@philpem.me.uk> On 02/07/10 07:29, Tony Duell wrote: > Yes, of course you're replacing the laser, so you have to > re-focus/colimate the beam. I have to refocus / re-collimate it anyway... I'm ripping a laser diode out of a PlayStation3 laser sled and will probably be installing it in an Aixiz heatsink. Should be a good bit of fun. Polymorph should be good for making up the mounting bracket. > Fortunately when I was assembly the CX > scanner, I on;y had to make sure the beak was going in the right places... Indeed. The laser assembly on the SX and CX seems to be a 'blob' sitting on one side of the scanner, with a fixed focus lens tied in. >> Getting down to 0.08mm is going to be interesting, what with >> beam-scatter and fluorescence. And I really don't like the idea of using >> a focus-finder to set it up... viewing a laser through a magnifying lens >> seems like a really dumb idea to me, even with safety goggles. > > 'Do not look up this laser beam with your remaining eye' :-) Actually it's: WARNING BIG SCARY LASER DO NOT LOOK INTO BEAM WITH REMAINING EYE :) > When I have a chance I;ll dig out what schematics I have of the CX and SX > enginers and get copies to you... No hurry. I've got a weekend of finishing assignment work ahead of me... need to finish off my B.Sc project report, and one of my module assignments. Fun! -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Fri Jul 2 14:52:22 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2010 20:52:22 +0100 Subject: (OT) Laserjet III laser scanner module In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C2E4376.3080502@philpem.me.uk> On 02/07/10 20:26, Tony Duell wrote: > My expeirence in getting parts for camcorders suggests that CCDs and > human eyes are equally difficult to obtain and replace -- that is almost > impossible ;-) It's even more fun trying to get datasheets for them :) What I really want is a Cypress LUPA-300 (CYIL1SM0300AA) high-speed B&W image sensor. 250FPS in full-frame mode, more in windowed mode. Using a 256x256 frame size, you can push it to over 1000 frames per second... It's a shame they cost ~?280 plus VAT each. My evil plan was to mate one to an EEV P8079HP image intensifier and an Olympus OM-Zuiko 50mm f1.8 "kit" lens. Homebrew high-speed imaging system, anyone? :) > That is problably sensible. I've said many times that hte 3 parts of me > that I depend on are my vision, my hands, and my brain. Most other things > (legs, hearing, etc) I could maange without Oh $DEITY, don't take my hearing! Seriously, I couldn't live without my MP3 player and a hard drive full of music. Rock, pop, country, 70s to present day. "It's all good... except the stuff that isn't" But if I had to pick three things I could keep? I'd agree with you, Tony. -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jul 2 15:15:09 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2010 13:15:09 -0700 Subject: Conecting new printer to a 286 In-Reply-To: <4C2E2A3F.8030200@attglobal.net> References: <612340.69044.qm@web180412.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>, <4C2E2A3F.8030200@attglobal.net> Message-ID: <4C2DE65D.14349.F3DC39@cclist.sydex.com> On 2 Jul 2010 at 14:04, Barry L. Kline wrote: > Lotsa luck. Many of those types of printers use drivers which moved > the processing from the printer to the computer, thus making them much > cheaper. Indeed. Even the ones that explicitly state that they support PCL or Postscript often do so only through a driver that does all of the interpretation. Perhaps one of the Xerox Phaser printers might offer something along the lines of what you're looking for. I've got a DocuPrint N2825 here that I've driven with MS-DOS. There are bidirectional ECP/EPP cards for the ISA bus kicking around, so bidirectionality shouldn't be an issue. --Chuck From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Fri Jul 2 17:55:10 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2010 23:55:10 +0100 Subject: Conecting new printer to a 286 In-Reply-To: <4C2DE65D.14349.F3DC39@cclist.sydex.com> References: <612340.69044.qm@web180412.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>, <4C2E2A3F.8030200@attglobal.net> <4C2DE65D.14349.F3DC39@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4C2E6E4E.8080704@philpem.me.uk> On 02/07/10 21:15, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Indeed. Even the ones that explicitly state that they support PCL or > Postscript often do so only through a driver that does all of the > interpretation. I disagree. Most of the Kyocera laser printers speak PCL and PostScript (or rather Kyocera's implementation of PostScript, a.k.a. KPDL). The FS-C5200dn sitting next to me most certainly does, because I've catted LaTeX "dvips" PostScript output to it via netcat. Mainly because CUPS was playing silly gits. Disadvantage is that it's USB/LAN only. No Centronics port, but it speaks most of the major networking protocols (even stuff like Netware...) An LJ3 or LJ4 is probably the best option, though -- those things are built like tanks. -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jul 2 18:13:51 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2010 16:13:51 -0700 Subject: Conecting new printer to a 286 In-Reply-To: <4C2E6E4E.8080704@philpem.me.uk> References: <612340.69044.qm@web180412.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>, <4C2DE65D.14349.F3DC39@cclist.sydex.com>, <4C2E6E4E.8080704@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4C2E103F.18888.1977831@cclist.sydex.com> On 2 Jul 2010 at 23:55, Philip Pemberton wrote: > Disadvantage is that it's USB/LAN only. No Centronics port, but it > speaks most of the major networking protocols (even stuff like > Netware...) And this is practical (i.e. drivers are available) to run from a 286, probably running in 16-bit real mode? Chuck From afra at aurigae.demon.co.uk Fri Jul 2 18:16:57 2010 From: afra at aurigae.demon.co.uk (Phill Harvey-Smith) Date: Sat, 03 Jul 2010 00:16:57 +0100 Subject: Conecting new printer to a 286 In-Reply-To: <4C2E6E4E.8080704@philpem.me.uk> References: <612340.69044.qm@web180412.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>, <4C2E2A3F.8030200@attglobal.net> <4C2DE65D.14349.F3DC39@cclist.sydex.com> <4C2E6E4E.8080704@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4C2E7369.9050709@aurigae.demon.co.uk> Philip Pemberton wrote: > An LJ3 or LJ4 is probably the best option, though -- those things are > built like tanks. Some of them weigh almost as much as tanks too, as anyone who's ever moved a 3Si/4Si can attest..... Cheers. Phill. -- Phill Harvey-Smith, Programmer, Hardware hacker, and general eccentric ! "You can twist perceptions, but reality won't budge" -- Rush. From evan at snarc.net Fri Jul 2 19:39:35 2010 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2010 20:39:35 -0400 Subject: Fwd: Don Maslin - Death of Winnie Maslin Message-ID: <4C2E86C7.7050708@snarc.net> >>> Don't know if this has been posted here yet, but Don Maslin's widow ... And for anyone who is wondering -- Sellam was (is) already working with one of the Maslin family's grown children about archives. From pat at computer-refuge.org Sat Jul 3 00:34:31 2010 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2010 01:34:31 -0400 Subject: Conecting new printer to a 286 In-Reply-To: <4C2E7369.9050709@aurigae.demon.co.uk> References: <612340.69044.qm@web180412.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4C2E6E4E.8080704@philpem.me.uk> <4C2E7369.9050709@aurigae.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <201007030134.31500.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Friday, July 02, 2010, Phill Harvey-Smith wrote: > Philip Pemberton wrote: > > An LJ3 or LJ4 is probably the best option, though -- those things > > are > > > > built like tanks. > > Some of them weigh almost as much as tanks too, as anyone who's ever > moved a 3Si/4Si can attest..... The people working the mail room at the dorm I lived in while a sophomore at Purdue were not too happy when I had a 4si shipped to me. Apparently, it was "too heavy" or something. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From jfoust at threedee.com Sat Jul 3 10:16:56 2010 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sat, 03 Jul 2010 10:16:56 -0500 Subject: Fwd: Don Maslin - Death of Winnie Maslin In-Reply-To: <4C2E86C7.7050708@snarc.net> References: <4C2E86C7.7050708@snarc.net> Message-ID: <201007031519.o63FJLr6055937@billY.EZWIND.NET> At 07:39 PM 7/2/2010, Evan Koblentz wrote: > >>> Don't know if this has been posted here yet, but Don Maslin's widow > >... And for anyone who is wondering -- Sellam was (is) already working with one of the Maslin family's grown children about archives. So his garage of stuff wasn't tossed in a Dumpster? - John From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Jul 3 10:51:09 2010 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2010 08:51:09 -0700 Subject: Fwd: Don Maslin - Death of Winnie Maslin In-Reply-To: <201007031519.o63FJLr6055937@billY.EZWIND.NET> References: <4C2E86C7.7050708@snarc.net> <201007031519.o63FJLr6055937@billY.EZWIND.NET> Message-ID: At 10:16 AM -0500 7/3/10, John Foust wrote: >At 07:39 PM 7/2/2010, Evan Koblentz wrote: >> >>> Don't know if this has been posted here yet, but Don Maslin's widow >> >>... And for anyone who is wondering -- Sellam was (is) already >>working with one of the Maslin family's grown children about >>archives. > >So his garage of stuff wasn't tossed in a Dumpster? > >- John At this point, I'd recommend everyone just backs off, and lets Sellam deal with this. If anyone contacts anyone, I'd recommend it be Sellam. In fact more importantly based on how this subject has been treated in the past I'd like to recommend that Evan contacts him, if he's willing and no one else. Of course this is easy for me to recommend as I have little or no interest at this time. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | From bqt at softjar.se Sat Jul 3 01:37:17 2010 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Sat, 03 Jul 2010 08:37:17 +0200 Subject: yet another pdp-11 in fgpa In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C2EDA9D.80704@softjar.se> Eric Smith wrote: > Johnny Billquist wrote: > > But if we call this an 11/74, what shall we call the 11/70 with CIS? > > I wrote: > > Fantasy? There wasn't such a thing, since there wasn't an 11/70 with a > > KB11-E CPU that was necessary to accomodate the KE74-A CIS. > > Johnny wrote: > > Then you are saying that Don North's work on the CIS microcode > > for the 11/74 is a figment of his imagination? > > Not at all. I'm saying that it wasn't an 11/70, and that no 11/70 had > CIS. He seems to agree with me. Excellent. :-) So let's call that an 11/74 then, as I've been doing the whole time. Then the question is, what do we call the 11/70 with modifications to be able to run multiprocessor configurations? Johnny From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Jul 3 12:33:01 2010 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 03 Jul 2010 10:33:01 -0700 Subject: Fwd: Don Maslin - Death of Winnie Maslin In-Reply-To: References: <4C2E86C7.7050708@snarc.net> <201007031519.o63FJLr6055937@billY.EZWIND.NET> Message-ID: <4C2F744D.5070301@bitsavers.org> On 7/3/10 8:51 AM, Zane H. Healy wrote: > At this point, I'd recommend everyone just backs off, and lets Sellam > deal with this. Absolutely. He has been working the issue for a few months now, last I talked to him about it. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jul 3 14:16:34 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2010 20:16:34 +0100 (BST) Subject: (OT) Laserjet III laser scanner module In-Reply-To: <4C2E3FDA.6060008@philpem.me.uk> from "Philip Pemberton" at Jul 2, 10 08:36:58 pm Message-ID: > > Yes, of course you're replacing the laser, so you have to > > re-focus/colimate the beam. > > I have to refocus / re-collimate it anyway... I'm ripping a laser diode > out of a PlayStation3 laser sled and will probably be installing it in > an Aixiz heatsink. Should be a good bit of fun. Polymorph should be good > for making up the mounting bracket. I am not sure how rigid polymorph is, personally I'd rather machine a metal bracket... > > > Fortunately when I was assembly the CX > > scanner, I on;y had to make sure the beak was going in the right places... > > Indeed. The laser assembly on the SX and CX seems to be a 'blob' sitting > on one side of the scanner, with a fixed focus lens tied in. It's a bit harder than that (at least on the CX). The laser mount and lens mount are 2 separate parts, one has a convex (spherical) face, the other concabe. There are a couple of screws to lock them toeghter, but you have enough movement to be able to direct the beam by shifting the laser mount. And of course I had to do that. But the complete assembly will come off and go back with no problems. > > When I have a chance I;ll dig out what schematics I have of the CX and SX > > engines and get copies to you... > > No hurry. I've got a weekend of finishing assignment work ahead of me... OK, but remind me if I don;t make a comment fairly soon... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jul 3 14:19:26 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2010 20:19:26 +0100 (BST) Subject: (OT) Laserjet III laser scanner module In-Reply-To: <4C2E4376.3080502@philpem.me.uk> from "Philip Pemberton" at Jul 2, 10 08:52:22 pm Message-ID: > > That is problably sensible. I've said many times that hte 3 parts of me > > that I depend on are my vision, my hands, and my brain. Most other thin= > gs > > (legs, hearing, etc) I could maange without > > Oh $DEITY, don't take my hearing! I did not say that I wanted to become deaf (although sometimes I wish I could turn off my audio input system when lusers insist on pestering me when I am trying to do something hackish..), only that I could manage if I was dead. > Seriously, I couldn't live without my MP3 player and a hard drive full=20 > of music. Rock, pop, country, 70s to present day. Hmmm. Portable audio for me involves 1/4" magnetic tape... -tony From eric at brouhaha.com Sat Jul 3 14:46:16 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sat, 03 Jul 2010 12:46:16 -0700 Subject: yet another pdp-11 in fgpa In-Reply-To: <4C2EDA9D.80704@softjar.se> References: <4C2EDA9D.80704@softjar.se> Message-ID: <4C2F9388.9070103@brouhaha.com> Johnny Billquist wrote: > > Excellent. :-) > So let's call that an 11/74 then, as I've been doing the whole time. Fine with me. > Then the question is, what do we call the 11/70 with modifications to > be able to run multiprocessor configurations? I'd call it an 11/70mp. Software might identify it as an 11/74. Eric From alhartman at yahoo.com Sat Jul 3 16:18:14 2010 From: alhartman at yahoo.com (Al Hartman) Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2010 14:18:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Conecting new printer to a 286 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <925607.73909.qm@web55303.mail.re4.yahoo.com> I'd just check eBay for an old HP Deskjet for under $35 or if Letter Quality isn't important, there are lots of old Dot Matrix printers there too. I keep an old IBM Graphics Printer (Epson MX-80), HP Deskjet 500 and an HP LJ IIIP around for printing off classic computers like my TRS-80, Atari, Amiga and other systems. Al From evan at snarc.net Sat Jul 3 21:36:09 2010 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Sat, 03 Jul 2010 22:36:09 -0400 Subject: Fwd: Don Maslin - Death of Winnie Maslin In-Reply-To: <4C2F744D.5070301@bitsavers.org> References: <4C2E86C7.7050708@snarc.net> <201007031519.o63FJLr6055937@billY.EZWIND.NET> <4C2F744D.5070301@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4C2FF399.6020803@snarc.net> > >> At this point, I'd recommend everyone just backs off, and lets Sellam >> deal with this. > > Absolutely. > > He has been working the issue for a few months now, last I talked to him > about it. Yes. Sellam told me the same thing recently. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jul 4 13:30:44 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2010 19:30:44 +0100 (BST) Subject: Conecting new printer to a 286 In-Reply-To: <925607.73909.qm@web55303.mail.re4.yahoo.com> from "Al Hartman" at Jul 3, 10 02:18:14 pm Message-ID: > I keep an old IBM Graphics Printer (Epson MX-80), HP Deskjet 500 and > an HP LJ IIIP around for printing off classic computers like my TRS-80, > Atari, Amiga and other systems. As I've mentioned before, I consider many of the peripherals to be a part of 'classic computing' and have no problem finding interest in restoring, say, an HP7245A thermal printer/plotter and then using it on one of my classic HP machines (although what I do when I run out of the special sprocketed thermal paper is another matter...). For the same reason I recently rebuilt an HP2631B (large, text-only dot-matrix printer with an HPIB interface) which will get used on one of my HP9000s (and elserhere). And of course I have a few other HPIB printers, HPIL printers, the CX-VDO laser printer on the PERQ, and the like. But I probably wouldn't want to print out longlistings on any of those. Consumables for them are getting hard to find (and expensive). Normally I trasnfer the data to this PC and send it to my (classic) laser printer. For machines which can be convinced to 'print' to a serial port, it's firly easy to capture the data nad upload it (As I've mentioned before, the HP95LX palmtop is handly for this..). For machines that have a parallel interface (not even necessarily Cantronics), it's not hard to make an RS232 output interface using TTL logic, a dumb UART, or a microcotnroller (depending on your preference), that looks like a Centroincs (or whatever) printer to the classic machine and simply squirts the data out to the HP95... I wonder (and it's of no use to me at the momnet)... How hard would it be to make a device with a Centronicts-like _input_ on one side and a USB port on the other, adn some data buffering memory. The idea is that you link it between your BBC micro, Amiga, TRS-80, etc (which thinks it's a printer) and a PC running suitable software. The classic machine 'prints' to this device. the software on the PC takes the data and stores it in a file on the PC for later formatting and printing. My guess is the hardware is little more than a microcontroller, amybe with a bit of logic to ensure the handshake timing is correct (a D-type and a couple of gates). The software is another matter, though... -tony From jdr_use at bluewin.ch Sun Jul 4 14:14:03 2010 From: jdr_use at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen) Date: Sun, 04 Jul 2010 21:14:03 +0200 Subject: Conecting new printer to a 286 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C30DD7B.7030008@bluewin.ch> On 07/04/2010 08:30 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > > classic HP machines (although what I do when I run out of the special > sprocketed thermal paper is another matter...). > > Ask me for my unused stock ? jos From glen.slick at gmail.com Sun Jul 4 15:47:41 2010 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2010 13:47:41 -0700 Subject: Conecting new printer to a 286 In-Reply-To: References: <925607.73909.qm@web55303.mail.re4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Jul 4, 2010 at 11:30 AM, Tony Duell wrote: > > I wonder (and it's of no use to me at the momnet)... How hard would it be > to make a device with a Centronicts-like _input_ on one side and a USB > port on the other, adn some data buffering memory. The idea is that you > link it between your BBC micro, Amiga, TRS-80, etc (which thinks it's a > printer) and a PC running suitable software. The classic machine 'prints' > to this device. the software on the PC takes the data and stores it in a > file on the PC for later formatting and printing. > > My guess is the hardware is little more than a microcontroller, amybe > with a bit of logic to ensure the handshake timing is correct (a D-type > and a couple of gates). The software is another matter, though... > It might not take too much to build up something to do that using an FTDI FT245R - USB FIFO IC. http://www.ftdichip.com/Products/FT245R.htm It has a write strobe input and a FIFO full output, which might need some simple logic to handshake with a standard LPT output. But you wouldn't have to write any firmware for the USB microcontroller. From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Jul 4 16:16:05 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2010 14:16:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Conecting new printer to a 286 In-Reply-To: References: <925607.73909.qm@web55303.mail.re4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20100704140758.J41692@shell.lmi.net> > I wonder (and it's of no use to me at the momnet)... How hard would it be > to make a device with a Centronicts-like _input_ on one side and a USB > port on the other, adn some data buffering memory. The idea is that you > link it between your BBC micro, Amiga, TRS-80, etc (which thinks it's a > printer) and a PC running suitable software. The classic machine 'prints' > to this device. the software on the PC takes the data and stores it in a > file on the PC for later formatting and printing. Simple. 20 years ago, I set up an IBM AT to emulate a printer. I based it on Bruce Eckel's Microcornucopia parrallel port interfacing articles. I used it for file transfer from machines that had Centronics-like printing capability, but inadequate communications capability. I found out at Comdex that VERY FEW people had use for it, nor even willingness to understand what it was. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From afra at aurigae.demon.co.uk Sun Jul 4 18:53:28 2010 From: afra at aurigae.demon.co.uk (Phill Harvey-Smith) Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2010 00:53:28 +0100 Subject: Conecting new printer to a 286 In-Reply-To: References: <925607.73909.qm@web55303.mail.re4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4C311EF8.8090603@aurigae.demon.co.uk> Glen Slick wrote: Classic comp paralell->USB serial. > It might not take too much to build up something to do that using an > FTDI FT245R - USB FIFO IC. > > http://www.ftdichip.com/Products/FT245R.htm > > It has a write strobe input and a FIFO full output, which might need > some simple logic to handshake with a standard LPT output. But you > wouldn't have to write any firmware for the USB microcontroller. Indeed it should be pretty easy to use one of these it's pretty easy to interface too, I have done so with a Dragon / CoCo. Plus they do them in experementer friendly modules too DIP28 (or 24 can't exactly remember) pinout as well. Cheers. Phill. -- Phill Harvey-Smith, Programmer, Hardware hacker, and general eccentric ! "You can twist perceptions, but reality won't budge" -- Rush. From lproven at gmail.com Sun Jul 4 19:00:01 2010 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2010 01:00:01 +0100 Subject: Conecting new printer to a 286 In-Reply-To: <20100704140758.J41692@shell.lmi.net> References: <925607.73909.qm@web55303.mail.re4.yahoo.com> <20100704140758.J41692@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On 4 July 2010 22:16, Fred Cisin wrote: >> I wonder (and it's of no use to me at the momnet)... How hard would it be >> to make a device with a Centronicts-like _input_ on one side and a USB >> port on the other, adn some data buffering memory. The idea is that you >> link it between your BBC micro, Amiga, TRS-80, etc (which thinks it's a >> printer) and a PC running suitable software. The classic machine 'prints' >> to this device. the software on the PC takes the data and stores it in a >> file on the PC for later formatting and printing. > > Simple. > > 20 years ago, I set up an IBM AT to emulate a printer. ?I based it on > Bruce Eckel's Microcornucopia parrallel port interfacing articles. ?I used > it for file transfer from machines that had Centronics-like printing > capability, but inadequate communications capability. ?I found out at > Comdex that VERY FEW people had use for it, nor even willingness to > understand what it was. I did that, around that time, too. I had to get all the files off an ancient dedicated wordprocessor - possibly a QUME or a Wang box, I forget now. It had a weird floppy format - I don't remember the details, maybe 8", maybe hard-sectored? No way to read 'em on a 1980s PC, anyway. Its printer was a serial daisywheel of no known type or compatibility. So I wrote a QuickBASIC app for a PC to receive data from the serial port and dump it in files. I wired up a nullmodem cable, loaded each file on the WP, then printed it. The PC asked for a filename, captured it, stripped out all the non-ASCII, single carriage returns and things like that, then saved it to disk. As it was a daisywheel, there was no formatting information worth noting; it did a backspace-and-overprint for bold, a code for underline which I think I threw away, and that was about it. But then I found a problem: it did bidirectional printing. In *software*. For every other line, it printed [character][backspace][backspace][character][backspace][backspace]... etc. So I had to recode my little program to reverse every other line, which meant it got a fair bit more complex, because it now had to count lines on the page and only do alternate ones... But not all pages started printing on the first line, some had blank lines at the top... That was an interesting day. Probably 21y ago or so and I've not thought of it in a decade or more. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? LiveJournal/Twitter: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Jul 4 19:24:33 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2010 17:24:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Conecting new printer to a 286 In-Reply-To: References: <925607.73909.qm@web55303.mail.re4.yahoo.com> <20100704140758.J41692@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20100704171601.W41692@shell.lmi.net> > > 20 years ago, I set up an IBM AT to emulate a printer. ?I based it on > > Bruce Eckel's Microcornucopia parrallel port interfacing articles. ?I used On Mon, 5 Jul 2010, Liam Proven wrote: > I did that, around that time, too. > I had to get all the files off an ancient dedicated wordprocessor - > possibly a QUME or a Wang box, I forget now. It had a weird floppy > format - I don't remember the details, maybe 8", maybe hard-sectored? > No way to read 'em on a 1980s PC, anyway. > Its printer was a serial daisywheel of no known type or compatibility. > So I wrote a QuickBASIC app for a PC to receive data from the serial > port and dump it in files. I wired up a nullmodem cable, loaded each The one that I was dealing with was "Centronics" parallel, but Eckels had described in detail how to modify one of the common parallel ports for bi-directional, and I wired up a cable with the opposite gender blue ribbon connector, so that the alien machine thought that it was talking to a printer. In retrospect, a parallel to serial adapter would probably have been easier. > file on the WP, then printed it. The PC asked for a filename, captured > it, stripped out all the non-ASCII, single carriage returns and things > like that, then saved it to disk. As it was a daisywheel, there was no > formatting information worth noting; it did a backspace-and-overprint > for bold, a code for underline which I think I threw away, and that > was about it. Most (not all) of the early daisy wheels did underline with a backspace and an underline character. > But then I found a problem: it did bidirectional printing. In > *software*. For every other line, it printed > [character][backspace][backspace][character][backspace][backspace]... > etc. Howzbout: capture line to buffer, (or read from the file), and look for the double [backspace]s ? What was even more fun was transferring files TO a machine with no real connectivity (a Merganthaler from hell). Box of solenoids on the keyboard! -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From lproven at gmail.com Sun Jul 4 19:31:23 2010 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2010 01:31:23 +0100 Subject: Conecting new printer to a 286 In-Reply-To: <20100704171601.W41692@shell.lmi.net> References: <925607.73909.qm@web55303.mail.re4.yahoo.com> <20100704140758.J41692@shell.lmi.net> <20100704171601.W41692@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On 5 July 2010 01:24, Fred Cisin wrote: >> > 20 years ago, I set up an IBM AT to emulate a printer. ?I based it on >> > Bruce Eckel's Microcornucopia parrallel port interfacing articles. ?I used > > On Mon, 5 Jul 2010, Liam Proven wrote: >> I did that, around that time, too. >> I had to get all the files off an ancient dedicated wordprocessor - >> possibly a QUME or a Wang box, I forget now. It had a weird floppy >> format - I don't remember the details, maybe 8", maybe hard-sectored? >> No way to read 'em on a 1980s PC, anyway. >> Its printer was a serial daisywheel of no known type or compatibility. >> So I wrote a QuickBASIC app for a PC to receive data from the serial >> port and dump it in files. I wired up a nullmodem cable, loaded each > > The one that I was dealing with was "Centronics" parallel, but Eckels had > described in detail how to modify one of the common parallel ports for > bi-directional, and I wired up a cable with the opposite gender blue > ribbon connector, so that the alien machine thought that it was talking to > a printer. > > In retrospect, a parallel to serial adapter would probably have been > easier. > >> file on the WP, then printed it. The PC asked for a filename, captured >> it, stripped out all the non-ASCII, single carriage returns and things >> like that, then saved it to disk. As it was a daisywheel, there was no >> formatting information worth noting; it did a backspace-and-overprint >> for bold, a code for underline which I think I threw away, and that >> was about it. > > Most (not all) of the early daisy wheels did underline with a backspace > and an underline character. Yes indeed - I had an Amstrad PCW9512 at the time, which did this - but I was only trying to recover raw text. I'd have had to find how to write some kind of formatting info into the file to preserve bold & underline, and that was just too much work. I don't think that back then I had any DOS app smart enough to do a global search-and-replace that would turn text codes into formatting, and while my work box (a 6MHz IBM PC-AT with 512KB) did dual-boot into SCO Xenix, which doubtless could have done this, my Unix-fu is very weak. >> But then I found a problem: it did bidirectional printing. In >> *software*. For every other line, it printed >> [character][backspace][backspace][character][backspace][backspace]... >> etc. > > Howzbout: capture line to buffer, (or read from the file), and look for > the double [backspace]s ?? Do you know, I might have done that. It was a very long time ago, I don't remember the details. > What was even more fun was transferring files TO a machine with no real > connectivity (a Merganthaler from hell). ?Box of solenoids on the > keyboard! O_o I think I'd have sent such a client to a professional media-conversion company, myself! -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? LiveJournal/Twitter: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jul 4 20:00:06 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 04 Jul 2010 18:00:06 -0700 Subject: Conecting new printer to a 286 In-Reply-To: References: <925607.73909.qm@web55303.mail.re4.yahoo.com>, , Message-ID: <4C30CC26.6875.200A993@cclist.sydex.com> On 4 Jul 2010 at 13:47, Glen Slick wrote: > It might not take too much to build up something to do that using an > FTDI FT245R - USB FIFO IC. > > http://www.ftdichip.com/Products/FT245R.htm > > It has a write strobe input and a FIFO full output, which might need > some simple logic to handshake with a standard LPT output. But you > wouldn't have to write any firmware for the USB microcontroller. Um, I'm confused. The FT245R is a slave device. Would it not require a host controller to interface to a USB printer? The FT245 ISTR always looks like a communications device. You might rig something up an FTDI Vinculum, however. --Chuck From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sun Jul 4 20:35:54 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2010 18:35:54 -0700 Subject: Conecting new printer to a 286 In-Reply-To: <4C30CC26.6875.200A993@cclist.sydex.com> References: <925607.73909.qm@web55303.mail.re4.yahoo.com>, , , , , <4C30CC26.6875.200A993@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > From: cclist at sydex.com > On 4 Jul 2010 at 13:47, Glen Slick wrote: > > > It might not take too much to build up something to do that using an > > FTDI FT245R - USB FIFO IC. > > > > http://www.ftdichip.com/Products/FT245R.htm > > > > It has a write strobe input and a FIFO full output, which might need > > some simple logic to handshake with a standard LPT output. But you > > wouldn't have to write any firmware for the USB microcontroller. > > Um, I'm confused. The FT245R is a slave device. Would it not > require a host controller to interface to a USB printer? The FT245 > ISTR always looks like a communications device. > > You might rig something up an FTDI Vinculum, however. > > --Chuck Hi I think Chuck is right. I didn't see anythig in the spec sheet about it being a host controller, only about being an end receiver. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail has tools for the New Busy. Search, chat and e-mail from your inbox. http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_1 From nigel.d.williams at gmail.com Mon Jul 5 00:20:55 2010 From: nigel.d.williams at gmail.com (Nigel Williams) Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2010 15:20:55 +1000 Subject: DEC RQZX1 and KDJ11-E boot problem? In-Reply-To: References: <4C1671F1.3020607@softjar.se> Message-ID: On Sat, Jun 19, 2010 at 1:18 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: > Now for an interesting bit of info. ?Apparently there are two different > types of Firmware. ?One for the PDP-11, and one for VAXen. I'll see if I can > get a little bit more info on that. Given that the RFM (Resident Firmware Menu) which provides the setup, autoconfiguration and diagnostics, runs natively on the host (via the boot DU 253 shortcut), then the machine specific ROM needs the compatible machine code, so did they release a version with VAX machine code perhaps? > Now for the important part, the whole manual. > http://www.avanthar.com/~healyzh/RQZX1.pdf Excellent, thank you for providing. It confirms what everyone has said so far about the supported drive-set and dual-support (MSCP and TMSCP). One interesting note I found in the RSTS/E 9.7 release notes is this comment: {AA-NB17A-TC} 4.3.3 TMSCP Tape Driver If your system contains only one TMSCP tape drive (TU81 or TK50), you must designate it unit 0....elided... NOTE The controller number must also match the drive number. I wonder if this applies to MSCP side for disks too? I have been offline with other distractions for a few weeks but I hope to get back to exploring the problem booting soon. From ats at offog.org Mon Jul 5 02:19:11 2010 From: ats at offog.org (Adam Sampson) Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2010 08:19:11 +0100 Subject: Conecting new printer to a 286 In-Reply-To: (Tony Duell's message of "Sun, 4 Jul 2010 19:30:44 +0100 (BST)") References: Message-ID: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) writes: > How hard would it be to make a device with a Centronicts-like _input_ > on one side and a USB port on the other, adn some data buffering > memory. I'd use one of the cheap embedded Linux boards for this -- then you can run whatever conversion and printer driver software you like. Being able to do automated N-up/duplex printing from a classic machine would be handy for listings. -- Adam Sampson From charlesleecourtney at yahoo.com Fri Jul 2 15:46:12 2010 From: charlesleecourtney at yahoo.com (Lee Courtney) Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2010 13:46:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Conecting new printer to a 286 In-Reply-To: <612340.69044.qm@web180412.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <612340.69044.qm@web180412.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <639377.88899.qm@web35303.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Hi Robert I have a working Laserjet-2 that I used on my old 286 machine back in the day I'll sell you for $100 + shipping if you're interested. Lee Courtney ________________________________ From: Robert Laag To: CCTECH Sent: Fri, July 2, 2010 10:47:22 AM Subject: Conecting new printer to a 286 I have an old 286 computer i use for tasks that won't run on a newer maching... My old printer is dead and when trying to connect a new printer it doesn't work... What can i do to get the newer printers like lexmark to go with the old 286 HP VECTRA??? TNX From c.murray.mccullough at gmail.com Fri Jul 2 17:54:23 2010 From: c.murray.mccullough at gmail.com (Murray McCullough) Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2010 18:54:23 -0400 Subject: VCF in the UK Message-ID: ZDNet a mainstream media company looked at VCF UK. It showed British-micro history. Very interesting...could have had more commentary! Great pictures though. Murray-- From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sat Jul 3 15:56:20 2010 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2010 13:56:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Conecting new printer to a 286 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <727960.27840.qm@web65514.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> --- On Fri, 7/2/10, Tony Duell wrote: > I really wonder how USB has 'improved' things for the likes > of us :-) Duh. The improvement comes when you buy the dongle that allows you to connect a parallel or serial port to the end of it. Sheesh. From sspurling at gmail.com Sun Jul 4 15:57:40 2010 From: sspurling at gmail.com (Shannon Spurling) Date: Sun, 04 Jul 2010 15:57:40 -0500 Subject: Trying to find information on an old IBM system Message-ID: <4C30F5C4.9060909@gmail.com> I have this old IBM system. I think I identified the CPU as an 8085. The motherboard/ card cage looks like the one from the Datamaster. Thing is, I can't find ANY info on it. It's a four piece system with a tower, monitor, keyboard and printer. The tower is huge, and has dual 8" floppies. If I were to guess, I would presume it was a version of the Datamaster, but I can't find any thing that states this thing was ever made. The number on the tag says 5324, and it is IBM. Any one have info or someplace to look? And, if it is possible, I would really like to get my hands on some tech/repair info. From csquared3 at tx.rr.com Sun Jul 4 23:59:37 2010 From: csquared3 at tx.rr.com (Charlie Carothers) Date: Sun, 04 Jul 2010 23:59:37 -0500 Subject: Conecting new printer to a 286 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C3166B9.3070308@tx.rr.com> Tony Duell wrote: >> I keep an old IBM Graphics Printer (Epson MX-80), HP Deskjet 500 and >> an HP LJ IIIP around for printing off classic computers like my TRS-80, >> Atari, Amiga and other systems. > > As I've mentioned before, I consider many of the peripherals to be a part > of 'classic computing' and have no problem finding interest in restoring, > say, an HP7245A thermal printer/plotter and then using it on one of my > classic HP machines (although what I do when I run out of the special > sprocketed thermal paper is another matter...). Buy regular thermal paper and build your own perforator? :-) > > For the same reason I recently rebuilt an HP2631B (large, text-only > dot-matrix printer with an HPIB interface) which will get used on one of > my HP9000s (and elserhere). And of course I have a few other HPIB > printers, HPIL printers, the CX-VDO laser printer on the PERQ, and the > like. > > But I probably wouldn't want to print out longlistings on any of those. > Consumables for them are getting hard to find (and expensive). Normally I > trasnfer the data to this PC and send it to my (classic) laser printer. > For machines which can be convinced to 'print' to a serial port, it's > firly easy to capture the data nad upload it (As I've mentioned before, > the HP95LX palmtop is handly for this..). For machines that have a > parallel interface (not even necessarily Cantronics), it's not hard to > make an RS232 output interface using TTL logic, a dumb UART, or a > microcotnroller (depending on your preference), that looks like a > Centroincs (or whatever) printer to the classic machine and simply > squirts the data out to the HP95... > > I wonder (and it's of no use to me at the momnet)... How hard would it be > to make a device with a Centronicts-like _input_ on one side and a USB > port on the other, adn some data buffering memory. The idea is that you > link it between your BBC micro, Amiga, TRS-80, etc (which thinks it's a > printer) and a PC running suitable software. The classic machine 'prints' > to this device. the software on the PC takes the data and stores it in a > file on the PC for later formatting and printing. > > My guess is the hardware is little more than a microcontroller, amybe > with a bit of logic to ensure the handshake timing is correct (a D-type > and a couple of gates). The software is another matter, though... I've not personally done it so please take this as semi-informed speculation, but I think it would be not too hard based on some things I've been reading in Nuts & Volts and Circuit Cellar. Some of the PIC CPUs have USB capability now and there is evidently some pretty nice support software in their library. If you didn't want to use one of those, then FTDI has some nifty chips with a lot of the USB logic built in. If I correctly understand what you're wanting to do then you just need a USB client and not a USB host which makes the problem a lot easier. If you can also arrange to have the USB client emulate a human interface device then you avoid needing any sort of driver in the PC. If it were me though, I think I would tend to just grab an old PC with a parallel port and arrange a bit of logic to make that talk to the Centronics output of the classic computer. The software (under DOS yet) should be pretty much a piece of cake with that arrangement. Just mostly accept input up to CR, CRLF or whatever and write the text lines to a file. I suppose handling escape sequences might not be quite so much fun. It sort of depends on the capabilities of the target physical printer and just how close to the classic's printout look one was willing to support. Later, Charlie C. > > -tony > From jws at jwsss.com Mon Jul 5 01:39:56 2010 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Sun, 04 Jul 2010 23:39:56 -0700 Subject: Happy 4th, and more apple 2 questions Message-ID: <4C317E3C.1040508@jwsss.com> Does anyone have a working (hopefully, I know it's asking a lot) Apple 2C power supply? I can build one up if I weren't lazy, but I really would just like to get it going with a regular supply. Also will try to hook up and bootstrap over a copy of apple dos, assuming the ADT Pro will bootstrap me. The Apple 2e now has a super serial card waiting, so that project will proceed when the paying work clears later this week. I will have to find my serial kit and organize it a bit, but that will be a good exercise. Again, I don't know looking over the thread if I asked, if anyone could also spare or point at a cpm card for the 2e? I am a bit ahead of myself in asking for that, but I do have a number of boxes of CP/M disks in the pile with the ones I got with that system. I wish I weren't working on paying work over the 4th, but you work when those who pay want you to. Jim From shoppa at trailing-edge.com Mon Jul 5 07:14:59 2010 From: shoppa at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2010 08:14:59 -0400 Subject: Trying to find information on an old IBM system Message-ID: <20100705121500.5E330BA566D@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Shannon Spurling writes: > I have this old IBM system. I think I identified the CPU as an 8085. > The motherboard/ card cage looks like the one from the Datamaster. Thing > is, I can't find ANY info on it. It's a four piece system with a tower, > monitor, keyboard and printer. The tower is huge, and has dual 8" > floppies. Do the tower and printer look anything like the stuff in the background on http://www-03.ibm.com/ibm/history/exhibits/pc/pc_9.html According to the text this was a configuration where "two workstations ... permitted two people to use the system simultaneously", and maybe the unit you have is the non-workstation component of the system (shared printer access, maybe shared file access?) Some of the keypunch-to-floppy units IBM sold in the 70's seemed to me to be vaguely styled like the Datamaster. Maybe these also inspired the Heath-Zenith 89. Tim. From dkelvey at hotmail.com Mon Jul 5 08:28:30 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2010 06:28:30 -0700 Subject: Conecting new printer to a 286 In-Reply-To: <4C3166B9.3070308@tx.rr.com> References: ,<4C3166B9.3070308@tx.rr.com> Message-ID: > From: csquared3 at tx.rr.com > > > > My guess is the hardware is little more than a microcontroller, amybe > > with a bit of logic to ensure the handshake timing is correct (a D-type > > and a couple of gates). The software is another matter, though... > I've not personally done it so please take this as semi-informed > speculation, but I think it would be not too hard based on some things > I've been reading in Nuts & Volts and Circuit Cellar. Some of the PIC > CPUs have USB capability now and there is evidently some pretty nice > support software in their library. If you didn't want to use one of > those, then FTDI has some nifty chips with a lot of the USB logic built > in. If I correctly understand what you're wanting to do then you just > need a USB client and not a USB host which makes the problem a lot > easier. If you can also arrange to have the USB client emulate a human > interface device then you avoid needing any sort of driver in the PC. > Hi That is the point. He needs a host controller to talk to the printer. A parallel input is to receive data from the old PC. On another thought. If you can find an older laptop ( I'm typing on a Dell D800 right now ), they come with both USB and a parallel port. One should be able to write something to read the parallel port and then send it out the USB. Not a real clean setup but something that should work. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ The New Busy is not the too busy. Combine all your e-mail accounts with Hotmail. http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?tile=multiaccount&ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_4 From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Jul 5 09:57:22 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2010 10:57:22 -0400 Subject: Happy 4th, and more apple 2 questions In-Reply-To: <4C317E3C.1040508@jwsss.com> References: <4C317E3C.1040508@jwsss.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Jul 5, 2010 at 2:39 AM, jim s wrote: > Again, I don't know looking over the thread if I asked, if anyone could also > spare or point at a cpm card for the 2e? ?I am a bit ahead of myself in > asking for that, but I do have a number of boxes of CP/M disks in the pile > with the ones I got with that system. It's been a long time since I used a CP/M card in an Apple (like not since 1984). With the strangeness of Woz's disk controller design, I'm guessing you need hardware-specific-formatted disks, but can anyone confirm/refute that? > I wish I weren't working on paying work over the 4th, but you work when > those who pay want you to. I hear you. -ethan From pete at dunnington.plus.com Mon Jul 5 09:59:47 2010 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2010 15:59:47 +0100 Subject: picture of GEC CPSE? Message-ID: <4C31F363.4060408@dunnington.plus.com> Does anyone have a photo of a GEC Campus Packet Switch Exchange (aka CPSE)? It's an X25 switch circa mid-80s, popular in UK Universities, and we need a photo for a book. No offer refused; credit will be given! -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From glen.slick at gmail.com Mon Jul 5 09:59:59 2010 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2010 07:59:59 -0700 Subject: Conecting new printer to a 286 In-Reply-To: <4C30CC26.6875.200A993@cclist.sydex.com> References: <925607.73909.qm@web55303.mail.re4.yahoo.com> <4C30CC26.6875.200A993@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Jul 4, 2010 at 6:00 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > Um, I'm confused. ?The FT245R is a slave device. ?Would it not > require a host controller to interface to a USB printer? ?The FT245 > ISTR always looks like a communications device. > Yes, you are confused. Tony's problem statement to which I replied was capturing print data from a vintage PC to a USB capable host PC, not printing from a vintage PC directly to a USB printer device. From sspurling at gmail.com Mon Jul 5 08:47:35 2010 From: sspurling at gmail.com (Shannon Spurling) Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2010 08:47:35 -0500 Subject: Trying to find information on an old IBM system In-Reply-To: <20100705121500.5E330BA566D@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> References: <20100705121500.5E330BA566D@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <4C31E277.9000105@gmail.com> On 7/5/2010 7:14 AM, Tim Shoppa wrote: > Shannon Spurling writes: >> I have this old IBM system. I think I identified the CPU as an 8085. >> The motherboard/ card cage looks like the one from the Datamaster. Thing >> is, I can't find ANY info on it. It's a four piece system with a tower, >> monitor, keyboard and printer. The tower is huge, and has dual 8" >> floppies. > Do the tower and printer look anything like the stuff in the background > on > > http://www-03.ibm.com/ibm/history/exhibits/pc/pc_9.html > > According to the text this was a configuration where "two workstations > ... permitted two people to use the system simultaneously", and maybe > the unit you have is the non-workstation component of the system (shared > printer access, maybe shared file access?) > > Some of the keypunch-to-floppy units IBM sold in the 70's seemed to > me to be vaguely styled like the Datamaster. Maybe these also inspired > the Heath-Zenith 89. > > Tim. > > The drives look the same, but this is a system. It has a CRT and Keyboard but they are cabled to the tower. On the mainboard there is a couple of memory slots and four other expansion slots, one of which holds the floppy controller. I think I am having power supply issues, so I really need the pinout and specs for the power supply so I can figure out what it is supposed to be. Did all of these IBM systems have basic in rom? Thanks Shannon From snhirsch at gmail.com Mon Jul 5 11:03:36 2010 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2010 12:03:36 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Happy 4th, and more apple 2 questions In-Reply-To: References: <4C317E3C.1040508@jwsss.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 5 Jul 2010, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Mon, Jul 5, 2010 at 2:39 AM, jim s wrote: >> Again, I don't know looking over the thread if I asked, if anyone could also >> spare or point at a cpm card for the 2e? ?I am a bit ahead of myself in >> asking for that, but I do have a number of boxes of CP/M disks in the pile >> with the ones I got with that system. > > It's been a long time since I used a CP/M card in an Apple (like not > since 1984). With the strangeness of Woz's disk controller design, > I'm guessing you need hardware-specific-formatted disks, but can > anyone confirm/refute that? That's correct. The Apple CP/M format was physically the Woz GCR coding. You can use DOS 3.3 or ProDOS utilities to make disk-to-disk copies. At the logical level it looks like any other CP/M diskette. Steve -- From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jul 5 11:25:46 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2010 09:25:46 -0700 Subject: Conecting new printer to a 286 In-Reply-To: References: <925607.73909.qm@web55303.mail.re4.yahoo.com>, <4C30CC26.6875.200A993@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4C31A51A.17262.12CC31@cclist.sydex.com> On 5 Jul 2010 at 7:59, Glen Slick wrote: > Yes, you are confused. Tony's problem statement to which I replied > was capturing print data from a vintage PC to a USB capable host PC, > not printing from a vintage PC directly to a USB printer device. Well, to be sure, you can get DIP packages like the Elexol USBMOD4 parallel-to-USB transfer module that would entail little more than wiring up a cable. But there are so many scrapped PCs available with USB and (bidirectional) parallel ports, what would be the point of building anything? --Chuck From afra at aurigae.demon.co.uk Mon Jul 5 11:41:13 2010 From: afra at aurigae.demon.co.uk (afra at aurigae.demon.co.uk) Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2010 17:41:13 +0100 Subject: Conecting new printer to a 286 In-Reply-To: <4C31A51A.17262.12CC31@cclist.sydex.com> References: <925607.73909.qm@web55303.mail.re4.yahoo.com>, <4C30CC26.6875.200A993@cclist.sydex.com>, <4C31A51A.17262.12CC31@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20100705174113.12327jtdeooxu98o@aurigae.demon.co.uk> Quoting Chuck Guzis : > On 5 Jul 2010 at 7:59, Glen Slick wrote: > >> Yes, you are confused. Tony's problem statement to which I replied >> was capturing print data from a vintage PC to a USB capable host PC, >> not printing from a vintage PC directly to a USB printer device. > > Well, to be sure, you can get DIP packages like the Elexol USBMOD4 > parallel-to-USB transfer module that would entail little more than > wiring up a cable. > > But there are so many scrapped PCs available with USB and > (bidirectional) parallel ports, what would be the point of building > anything? Smaller, and doesn't need yet another PC and atendant monitor keyboard etc, which is another step to getting the output to your main PC. Infact depending on the retro computer concerned, the FTDI245 (or alternative) based circuit would probably sit inside the computer that you where printing from. If you used one of the DIP modules, you could probably get away with just wiring to it directly so would not even have to do any tricky surface mount soldering. Besides some of us actually *LIKE* building things :) Cheers. Phill. ---------------------------------------------------------------- This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Mon Jul 5 12:05:32 2010 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2010 19:05:32 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Interphase SMD controller Message-ID: Hi, I have three Fujitsu SMD disk drives that came from a Nixdorf machine and I'm looking for a way to read the data (sector based would be good enough). Recently I got hold of a Multibus SMD controller with a Nixdorf label and I hope this will lead me to some conclusions about the low-level format. It's an Interphase SMD 2190 (not a 2180) which is built around an i8085. As I understand it the format differs from controller to controller, is that right? Of course it would be much easier if I could just hook up the drives to a Xylogics 7053 or 451 on a VME based SUN machine... So the big question is, has anyone a manual of or information on the Interphase 2190? Would it be feasible to put the controller into an Intel MDS800 (I know, but it's the only "real" Multibus machine we have here...) ? Christian From fjgjr1 at aol.com Mon Jul 5 13:18:38 2010 From: fjgjr1 at aol.com (fjgjr1 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2010 14:18:38 -0400 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Heads_up_=E2=80=93_new_upgrade_Device_Side_for_USB_5.25=E2=80?= =?utf-8?Q?=9D_floppy_controller_=E2=80=93_e.g._Kaypro:_?= In-Reply-To: <4BD862DA.16458.1A7E0E0@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <8CCB53DD1877FB7-15CC-5BD0@webmail-d063.sysops.aol.com> <4BD862DA.16458.1A7E0E0@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <8CCEA859FC3AE40-E28-1985A@webmail-d059.sysops.aol.com> FYI - As of 07/02/2010 the upgrade now includes ? Support for Kaypro 4 CP/ M 2.2 disks Kaypro Uniform Please go to the website for more details ? WWW.DEVICESIDE.COM I have tried the upgrade on an old early year 2000 Gateway running WIN XP and found it works as advertised. Will do more testing when I get time ? e.g. Presario WIN ME, Toshiba Satellite laptop with WIN 98SE, etc. The previous version worked on these, so I expect this upgrade to also. But wanted you to know ASAP. Adam and I have been in correspondence and I sent him the necessary Kaypro disks to help him with this Kaypro upgrade. ================================================================ I want to stress ? I value my independence to ? ? tell it just as it is and I have experience it.? I have not, nor will I accept, any and all ?considerations? for my activities. Adam knows this and he has not offered any. ================================================================ But since computing is so diverse, you may not have the experiences as I did with anything I may report. Hope it is of some interest and use. Enjoy ! Frank P.S. FYI - For the past 2 months we have been very actively ?just getting the job done? with our ?downsizing / cleanout? of our home since 1974 and after very active lives in many ways of 40 years of marriage. We finally found some good and reasonable local people to do this while we still can. So that has to take priority for now. Will get back to these vintage computer projects when I eventually can. From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Jul 5 13:55:47 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2010 14:55:47 -0400 Subject: Interphase SMD controller In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C322AB3.8030805@neurotica.com> On 7/5/10 1:05 PM, Christian Corti wrote: > Hi, > > I have three Fujitsu SMD disk drives that came from a Nixdorf machine > and I'm looking for a way to read the data (sector based would be good > enough). Recently I got hold of a Multibus SMD controller with a Nixdorf > label and I hope this will lead me to some conclusions about the > low-level format. It's an Interphase SMD 2190 (not a 2180) which is > built around an i8085. As I understand it the format differs from > controller to controller, is that right? Of course it would be much > easier if I could just hook up the drives to a Xylogics 7053 or 451 on a > VME based SUN machine... > So the big question is, has anyone a manual of or information on the > Interphase 2190? Would it be feasible to put the controller into an > Intel MDS800 (I know, but it's the only "real" Multibus machine we have > here...) ? There's no standard on-disk format for SMD drives, unfortunately. I think the only hope you have of a compatible on-disk format is to stay within the same controller manufacturer, and then only if you're lucky. :-( -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Jul 5 13:59:13 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2010 11:59:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: VCF in the UK In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20100705115318.H78216@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 2 Jul 2010, Murray McCullough wrote: > ZDNet a mainstream media company looked at VCF UK. It showed British-micro > history. Very interesting...could have had more commentary! Great pictures > though. Well, that may be a plus. Cutesy and very inaccurate news commentary about archaic, obsolete, "useless" old stuff tends to get us riled up. My experiences with ZDNet have usually been with young 30-something and 40-something kids whose "first computer" was Pentium with Windoze. Let's see, . . . (think Cringely?) Ed Roberts said, "Let there be light", and produced the Altair or Imsai or something. Then came the Apple ][, then the IBM PC, and then the Macintosh. Anything else along the way didn't matter. From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Jul 5 14:12:50 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2010 12:12:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Conecting new printer to a 286 In-Reply-To: <4C3166B9.3070308@tx.rr.com> References: <4C3166B9.3070308@tx.rr.com> Message-ID: <20100705120032.G78216@shell.lmi.net> On Sun, 4 Jul 2010, Charlie Carothers wrote: > If it were me though, I think I would tend to just grab an old PC with a > parallel port and arrange a bit of logic to make that talk to the > Centronics output of the classic computer. That "logic" consists of a bidirectional printer port (See Bruce Eckel's Interfacing book), and a cable that you WILL have to make yourself. If it IS an old PC (less than about a dozen MHz), then you will need to add some trivial circuitry to extend the pulse, otherwise your polling loops will be too slow. If the alien machine is like MOST, then it cheats on the spec, and the pulse is WAY too short to use interrupts. > The software (under DOS yet) > should be pretty much a piece of cake with that arrangement. Just > mostly accept input up to CR, CRLF or whatever and write the text lines > to a file. I suppose handling escape sequences might not be quite so > much fun. It sort of depends on the capabilities of the target physical > printer and just how close to the classic's printout look one was > willing to support. Even the escape sequences are not hard to figure out. Many printers are well documented. With a little trivial study, you can do post-processing. It does NOT have to be done during the capture, IFF you are writing to a file. If you choose to not write to a file, and use the PC as a print buffer, then you will need to do ad-hoc processing. If you do a good job of it, then you won't need to start from scratch NEXT time. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jul 5 15:08:40 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2010 21:08:40 +0100 (BST) Subject: Conecting new printer to a 286 In-Reply-To: <4C30DD7B.7030008@bluewin.ch> from "Jos Dreesen" at Jul 4, 10 09:14:03 pm Message-ID: > > On 07/04/2010 08:30 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > classic HP machines (although what I do when I run out of the special > > sprocketed thermal paper is another matter...). > > > > > Ask me for my unused stock ? Possibly :-). Although don't you need it for your 7245? If you don;t ahvea 7245, try to get one. It's a curious machine, typically 'HP' of the period. Basically, it's a 12 element dot matrix thermal printer with the elements arranged in a diagonal-ish line on the printhead, along with an extra eleemnet in the middle. And a pair of stepper motors, one to move the head, the other to roll the paper back and forth. The HPIB version (whcih is what I have) responds to 2 HPIB addresses. Data sent to one is taken as text to print, using the 12 elements. The reason they're diagonally-placed is so that it can print vertically just as easily as horizontally. Data sent to the other address is taken as HPGL commands and plotted, using the extra eleement (which is controlled so that you get a constant print intensity, no matter what the plotting speed is). And yse it can plot text too... Electroinmcally there's an HP custom microprocessor ('nanocontroller'), ROMs, RAM (2114s...), and quite a bit of TTL for the HPIB interface and motor controller (which is quite interesting in itself). And the PSU is a strange 2-stage SMPUS thing. As I said, a machgine to track down if you don't have one. One word of warning. If you take the mechanism totally apart, you need a couple of (easy to make) special tools) to put it back together again. And there are a couple of tricks that make life a lot easier. Ask me if you want to do it. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jul 5 15:22:38 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2010 21:22:38 +0100 (BST) Subject: Conecting new printer to a 286 In-Reply-To: <20100704171601.W41692@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Jul 4, 10 05:24:33 pm Message-ID: > What was even more fun was transferring files TO a machine with no real > connectivity (a Merganthaler from hell). Box of solenoids on the > keyboard! :-) If the keyboard is a seperate unit and internally encoded (that is, it sends character codes or keycodes on a parallel or serial interface) it may not be too hard to make another machine pretend to be that keyboard. If it's just a matrix of switches, it mau be a little harder if you need to be able to press several keys at once. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jul 5 15:24:36 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2010 21:24:36 +0100 (BST) Subject: Conecting new printer to a 286 In-Reply-To: <4C30CC26.6875.200A993@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Jul 4, 10 06:00:06 pm Message-ID: > > On 4 Jul 2010 at 13:47, Glen Slick wrote: > > > It might not take too much to build up something to do that using an > > FTDI FT245R - USB FIFO IC. > > > > http://www.ftdichip.com/Products/FT245R.htm > > > > It has a write strobe input and a FIFO full output, which might need > > some simple logic to handshake with a standard LPT output. But you > > wouldn't have to write any firmware for the USB microcontroller. > > Um, I'm confused. The FT245R is a slave device. Would it not > require a host controller to interface to a USB printer? The FT245 > ISTR always looks like a communications device. It would, if you wanted to connect it straight to the printer. My idea was a device to let you get the data off the classic machine onto a modern PC, and then format/print it from there. In which case a slave USB devie is what is needed. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jul 5 15:29:29 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2010 21:29:29 +0100 (BST) Subject: Conecting new printer to a 286 In-Reply-To: <4C31A51A.17262.12CC31@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Jul 5, 10 09:25:46 am Message-ID: > > On 5 Jul 2010 at 7:59, Glen Slick wrote: > > > Yes, you are confused. Tony's problem statement to which I replied > > was capturing print data from a vintage PC to a USB capable host PC, > > not printing from a vintage PC directly to a USB printer device. > > Well, to be sure, you can get DIP packages like the Elexol USBMOD4 > parallel-to-USB transfer module that would entail little more than > wiring up a cable. > > But there are so many scrapped PCs available with USB and As I have said many times, that depeends on where you are... > (bidirectional) parallel ports, what would be the point of building > anything? You;ve not seen my workbench ;-). I doubt I could find space for a PC + monitor+keybaord alongide any classic machbine I was working on. Quite apart from the fact that the simpler something is, there less there is to go wrong.... -tony From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Jul 5 15:43:07 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2010 13:43:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Happy 4th, and more apple 2 questions In-Reply-To: References: <4C317E3C.1040508@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <20100705133857.I78216@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 5 Jul 2010, Ethan Dicks wrote: > It's been a long time since I used a CP/M card in an Apple (like not > since 1984). With the strangeness of Woz's disk controller design, > I'm guessing you need hardware-specific-formatted disks, but can > anyone confirm/refute that? That is correct. Apple CP/M has a unique GCR format. Same HARDWARE issues as Apple-OS. When I did the upper level (file system) software for "Apple Turnover", I did Apple OS, Apple CP/M, ProDos, and Apple Pascal formats. SVA (Sorrento Valley Associates) made an accessory disk controller for Apple ]['s. I don't remember whether it supported MFM, or just FM, but it did support 8" -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Jul 5 15:47:10 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2010 13:47:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Conecting new printer to a 286 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20100705134448.P78216@shell.lmi.net> > > (bidirectional) parallel ports, what would be the point of building > > anything? On Mon, 5 Jul 2010, Tony Duell wrote: > You;ve not seen my workbench ;-). I doubt I could find space for a PC + > monitor+keybaord alongide any classic machbine I was working on. > Quite apart from the fact that the simpler something is, there less there > is to go wrong.... All of the additional hardware to do it using an existing PC fits in a Centronics-like dongle. If the PC's printer port is bi-directional, then there is no need or reason to even open the PC (if you run your PCs in closed cases) -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From afra at aurigae.demon.co.uk Mon Jul 5 16:07:52 2010 From: afra at aurigae.demon.co.uk (Phill Harvey-Smith) Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2010 22:07:52 +0100 Subject: Conecting new printer to a 286 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C3249A8.8050502@aurigae.demon.co.uk> On 05/07/2010 21:22, Tony Duell wrote: >> What was even more fun was transferring files TO a machine with no real >> connectivity (a Merganthaler from hell). Box of solenoids on the >> keyboard! > > If the keyboard is a seperate unit and internally encoded (that is, it > sends character codes or keycodes on a parallel or serial interface) it > may not be too hard to make another machine pretend to be that keyboard. > If it's just a matrix of switches, it mau be a little harder if you need > to be able to press several keys at once. Microcontroler and a crosspoint switch IC such as the MT8816, is what I used to solve this problem when interfacing a PS/2 keyboard to a retro machine (Acorn Atom , BBC etc). Then it's just a matter of the software on the microcontroler, mind you do have to keep the character rate down so that the target system can keep up, after all most people can't type at 2K/s :) :) :) Cheers. Phill. From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Jul 5 16:10:38 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2010 14:10:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Conecting new printer to a 286 In-Reply-To: References: <925607.73909.qm@web55303.mail.re4.yahoo.com> <4C30CC26.6875.200A993@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20100705135844.V78216@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 5 Jul 2010, Glen Slick wrote: > Yes, you are confused. Tony's problem statement to which I replied > was capturing print data from a vintage PC to a USB capable host PC, > not printing from a vintage PC directly to a USB printer device. Who here is NOT confused? BOTH ideas are being discussed. The OP was for trying to print directly from a non-USB machine to a "modern" printer. The easiest way to do that, would of course, be to transfer the data to a PC that has a printer, even if that printer is USB. There are some here who are talking about what it would take to make an adapter to convert from "centronics" output to USB, in order to connect a USB printer to a non-USB machine. The EASIEST form of such an adapter would be an existing PC with parallel AND USB ports. Software to input one port, output another port is obviously not a big deal. The part being discussed would NOT work for that purpose, because it expects to be connected to a USB computer. On the other hand, that part COULD be used for making a "centronics" input on a USB computer, which seems rather pointless, since bidirectional parallel ports are readily available and a USB controlled "centronics" input is readily available in the form of bi-directional USB to parallel adapters. confused, -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Mon Jul 5 16:39:10 2010 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2010 22:39:10 +0100 Subject: DSSI Terminator Message-ID: <002701cb1c8a$8230ec60$8692c520$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> Anyone know a good place to source a DSSI Terminator (DEC part no 12-31281-01), ideally in the UK? All I can find is dealers who won't publish a price. There are none on eBay either. Regards Rob From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Jul 5 16:40:22 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2010 14:40:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Trying to find information on an old IBM system In-Reply-To: <4C31E277.9000105@gmail.com> References: <20100705121500.5E330BA566D@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> <4C31E277.9000105@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20100705143943.V78216@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 5 Jul 2010, Shannon Spurling wrote: > Did all of these IBM systems have basic in rom? NO. From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jul 5 16:58:10 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2010 14:58:10 -0700 Subject: Happy 4th, and more apple 2 questions In-Reply-To: <20100705133857.I78216@shell.lmi.net> References: <4C317E3C.1040508@jwsss.com>, , <20100705133857.I78216@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4C31F302.31975.1431F3D@cclist.sydex.com> On 5 Jul 2010 at 13:43, Fred Cisin wrote: > SVA (Sorrento Valley Associates) made an accessory disk controller for > Apple ]['s. I don't remember whether it supported MFM, or just FM, > but it did support 8" ...and I'll mention that the Micro Solutions MatchPoint PC card would allow one to format, read and write Apple II floppies on a PC (both CP/M and Apple DOS). It came with a copy of Uniform for the CP/M transfer. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jul 5 17:04:30 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2010 15:04:30 -0700 Subject: Conecting new printer to a 286 In-Reply-To: References: <4C31A51A.17262.12CC31@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Jul 5, 10 09:25:46 am, Message-ID: <4C31F47E.10209.148EB2F@cclist.sydex.com> On 5 Jul 2010 at 21:29, Tony Duell wrote: > You;ve not seen my workbench ;-). I doubt I could find space for a PC > + monitor+keybaord alongide any classic machbine I was working on. Once you've got the code loaded into the PC, there's no need for either a keyboard or a monitor. A little HP ePC takes up less space than a shoebox. There are also Linux-based Bluetooth and 100BaseT adapters that are smaller than a roll of Lifesaver candies, so one needn't be restricted to USB. --Chuck From pippo at bert8.it Mon Jul 5 12:40:48 2010 From: pippo at bert8.it (Filippo Bertotto) Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2010 19:40:48 +0200 Subject: Apple Lisa 1 for sale Message-ID: Hi, is your Apple Lisa still for sale?? Best Regards, Filippo From snhirsch at gmail.com Mon Jul 5 16:00:26 2010 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2010 17:00:26 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Happy 4th, and more apple 2 questions In-Reply-To: <20100705133857.I78216@shell.lmi.net> References: <4C317E3C.1040508@jwsss.com> <20100705133857.I78216@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 5 Jul 2010, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Mon, 5 Jul 2010, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> It's been a long time since I used a CP/M card in an Apple (like not >> since 1984). With the strangeness of Woz's disk controller design, >> I'm guessing you need hardware-specific-formatted disks, but can >> anyone confirm/refute that? > > That is correct. Apple CP/M has a unique GCR format. Same HARDWARE > issues as Apple-OS. When I did the upper level (file system) software > for "Apple Turnover", I did Apple OS, Apple CP/M, ProDos, and Apple Pascal > formats. > > SVA (Sorrento Valley Associates) made an accessory disk controller for > Apple ]['s. I don't remember whether it supported MFM, or just FM, but it > did support 8" As did Vista, Corvus, Taurus and a few others. It was interesting to see the various approaches used to achieve reliable DD operation, since the Apple CPU was not fast enough to poll status registers and manage transfer at the requisite speed. The SVA Megaplex was one of my favorites! Two nearly identical sofware loops one page apart in memory. One moved a sector's worth of bytes and the other was an infinite loop. The FDC RDY* signal caused A8 to toggle when data was available for read or ready for write. IIRC, the board had 2k of SRAM for the firmware. ROM was a 256 byte PROM (unless I'm confusing this with something else - it's been a while). Steve -- From uban at ubanproductions.com Mon Jul 5 23:55:39 2010 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2010 23:55:39 -0500 Subject: Lilith cabinets In-Reply-To: <4C2AE332.6090301@snarc.net> References: <4C2AE332.6090301@snarc.net> Message-ID: <4C32B74B.7050103@ubanproductions.com> I'm posting this for a friend, so please contact him (info below) if you are interested... --tom > Free to good home, local pickup only (Chicago area), a set of Lilith wood cabinets. > The innards are long gone, and they have a few scrapes and areas of sticker residue > but hey, where else are you going to get your hands on some Lilith cabinets, eh? I'm > in Grayslake, but if you're anywhere even remotely near the Chicago area, let's work > out a way to get them from me to you. duncan at ledgaming.com From csquared3 at tx.rr.com Mon Jul 5 23:19:19 2010 From: csquared3 at tx.rr.com (Charlie Carothers) Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2010 23:19:19 -0500 Subject: Conecting new printer to a 286 In-Reply-To: <20100705120032.G78216@shell.lmi.net> References: <4C3166B9.3070308@tx.rr.com> <20100705120032.G78216@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4C32AEC7.5080307@tx.rr.com> Fred Cisin wrote: > On Sun, 4 Jul 2010, Charlie Carothers wrote: >> If it were me though, I think I would tend to just grab an old PC with a >> parallel port and arrange a bit of logic to make that talk to the >> Centronics output of the classic computer. > > That "logic" consists of a bidirectional printer port (See Bruce Eckel's > Interfacing book), and a cable that you WILL have to make yourself. Yep. I realized after I clicked send I should have probably said "bit of logic, if needed" as I thought possibly only a cable might be needed. > > If it IS an old PC (less than about a dozen MHz), then you will need to > add some trivial circuitry to extend the pulse, otherwise your polling > loops will be too slow. If the alien machine is like MOST, then it cheats > on the spec, and the pulse is WAY too short to use interrupts. > >> The software (under DOS yet) >> should be pretty much a piece of cake with that arrangement. Just >> mostly accept input up to CR, CRLF or whatever and write the text lines >> to a file. I suppose handling escape sequences might not be quite so >> much fun. It sort of depends on the capabilities of the target physical >> printer and just how close to the classic's printout look one was >> willing to support. > > Even the escape sequences are not hard to figure out. Many printers are > well documented. With a little trivial study, you can do post-processing. > It does NOT have to be done during the capture, IFF you are writing to a > file. If you choose to not write to a file, and use the PC as a print > buffer, then you will need to do ad-hoc processing. Yeah, I was thinking later that the dot-matrix impact printers that I mostly visualize originally being used with these machines could do ISTR Epson emulation as one of their interface options (either that or they actually *were* Epsons). So maybe you only need to recognize the Epson escape sequences as long as you can convince the classic it is talking to an Epson or emulated equivalent. Of course I'm sure there are several exceptions where that idea won't fly. Seems like there are always exceptions... Later, Charlie C. > > If you do a good job of it, then you won't need to start from scratch NEXT > time. > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com > > > > > > > From jdr_use at bluewin.ch Tue Jul 6 01:51:28 2010 From: jdr_use at bluewin.ch (jdr_use at bluewin.ch) Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2010 06:51:28 +0000 (GMT) Subject: AW: Lilith cabinets In-Reply-To: <4C32B74B.7050103@ubanproductions.com> References: <4C2AE332.6090301@snarc.net> <4C32B74B.7050103@ubanproductions.com> Message-ID: <19378021.16051278399088209.JavaMail.webmail@ps6zhh.bluewin.ch> > Free to good home, a set of Lilith wood cabinets. Pant, pant, pant....... >local pickup only (Chicago area), Understandable, but nevertheless G****it > The innards are long gone, And I happen to have just enough spare parts to make recreating a Lilith a distinct possibility. And as a reminder, interested parties can download Emulith, my Lilith emulator here : ftp://jdreesen.dyndns.org/ftp/Emulith Jos Dreesen From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Tue Jul 6 04:47:56 2010 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2010 11:47:56 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Interphase SMD controller In-Reply-To: <4C322AB3.8030805@neurotica.com> References: <4C322AB3.8030805@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 5 Jul 2010, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 7/5/10 1:05 PM, Christian Corti wrote: >> low-level format. It's an Interphase SMD 2190 (not a 2180) which is >> built around an i8085. As I understand it the format differs from >> controller to controller, is that right? Of course it would be much >> easier if I could just hook up the drives to a Xylogics 7053 or 451 on a >> VME based SUN machine... >> So the big question is, has anyone a manual of or information on the >> Interphase 2190? Would it be feasible to put the controller into an >> Intel MDS800 (I know, but it's the only "real" Multibus machine we have >> here...) ? > > There's no standard on-disk format for SMD drives, unfortunately. I > think the only hope you have of a compatible on-disk format is to stay > within the same controller manufacturer, and then only if you're lucky. :-( Ok, I think that I have the right controller, but I still need the manual. Google turned out that the SMD 2190 was used in Pyramid, Sun 1 and SGI Iris systems, too. Maybe I can put the controller into a VME based SUN; I have some Multibus-to-VMEbus adapters from SUN. Christian From silvercreekvalley at yahoo.com Tue Jul 6 06:22:38 2010 From: silvercreekvalley at yahoo.com (silvercreekvalley) Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2010 04:22:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: FS: Orion 1/10 Message-ID: <42023.47753.qm@web56204.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Thinning out the collection a bit pending a move. If anyone has any interest in the High Level Hardware Orion 1/10 computers (Clipper CPU, NetBSD) I have several of these systems collected over many years, and really only need to keep a couple (one to use, one as a backup). If anyone has any interest in these machines, send me an email of list. Based in the UK. Collection only on these items sorry, they are bulky and heavy. From stephane.tsacas at gmail.com Tue Jul 6 12:32:33 2010 From: stephane.tsacas at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?St=E9phane_Tsacas?=) Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2010 19:32:33 +0200 Subject: For free : Apple Performa 6320 PowerPC Message-ID: Hi, Anyone interested ? Unit is in Paris, France. Disk may have been formated. If you need only some parts, it'll maybe be possible. Don't ask me anything about this machine, I din't have it handy, but there are many ressources on the web. Salut! St?phane http://DECpicted.blogspot.com From tshoppa at wmata.com Tue Jul 6 12:36:30 2010 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim) Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2010 13:36:30 -0400 Subject: Interphase SMD controller Message-ID: > There's no standard on-disk format for SMD drives, unfortunately. Within the DEC-compatible SMD world, many controllers (especially the Massbus-emulating) offered lowest-common-denominator compatibility with DEC RM03/RM05/RP05 packs in CDC 9762/CDC 9766/Memorex 677-51 drives. There are some delicate hooks between the software device drivers, Massbus registers, and the low level format that made it desirable to keep this lowest-common-denominator there even for SMD drives that had geometries nothing like the 9762/9766/677-51. But in the Sun/VME world I know of no such lowest-common-denominator standard. Tim. From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Jul 6 12:42:14 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2010 13:42:14 -0400 Subject: Interphase SMD controller In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C336AF6.3040206@neurotica.com> On 7/6/10 1:36 PM, Shoppa, Tim wrote: >> There's no standard on-disk format for SMD drives, unfortunately. > > Within the DEC-compatible SMD world, many controllers (especially the Massbus-emulating) > offered lowest-common-denominator compatibility with DEC RM03/RM05/RP05 packs > in CDC 9762/CDC 9766/Memorex 677-51 drives. > > There are some delicate hooks between the software device drivers, Massbus registers, and the low level format that made it desirable to keep this lowest-common-denominator there even for SMD drives that had geometries nothing like the 9762/9766/677-51. Yes, I remember this being a great benefit when using an Emulex QD32 to control a CDC 9762; that combination worked with RM02/RM03 packs. It was EXTREMELY handy at work. > But in the Sun/VME world I know of no such lowest-common-denominator standard. That's the problem. :-( Worse, I've not heard of any such attempts at compatibility in any other minicomputer ecosystem. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Jul 6 13:03:17 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2010 14:03:17 -0400 Subject: Interphase SMD controller In-Reply-To: <4C336AF6.3040206@neurotica.com> References: <4C336AF6.3040206@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On 7/6/10, Dave McGuire wrote: >> There are some delicate hooks between the software device drivers, Massbus >> registers, and the low level format that made it desirable to keep this >> lowest-common-denominator there even for SMD drives that had geometries >> nothing like the 9762/9766/677-51. > > Yes, I remember this being a great benefit when using an Emulex QD32 > to control a CDC 9762; that combination worked with RM02/RM03 packs. It > was EXTREMELY handy at work. I've written the list several times about the SMD drives we had on our 11/750 via a Systems Industries SI-9900 controller. The SI board in the VAX was register-compatible with a Massbus controller, but had a pair of 40-pin cables and was not cable-compatible. For our boot drives, we had a 160MB Fuji drive with a transparent lid. It appeared as a pair of RM03s to the system - DRA0: and DRA1:, IIRC. The Fuji Eagle was *not* the same size as an RM05, so to use all the tracks, we had to wait for the SI patch for each version of VMS DRDRIVER.EXE to update the drive geometry table with an entry for an Eagle in place of a real RM05. We couldn't boot from it, but it made a great data drive. The only drawback was being stuck at the old version of VMS until we could get up-to-date driver patches. Fortunately, the 160MB boot drive really did look just like a pair of RM03s and required no special handling to "just work". -ethan From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jul 6 13:28:14 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2010 19:28:14 +0100 (BST) Subject: Conecting new printer to a 286 In-Reply-To: <20100705134448.P78216@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Jul 5, 10 01:47:10 pm Message-ID: > > > > (bidirectional) parallel ports, what would be the point of building > > > anything? > > On Mon, 5 Jul 2010, Tony Duell wrote: > > You;ve not seen my workbench ;-). I doubt I could find space for a PC + > > monitor+keybaord alongide any classic machbine I was working on. > > Quite apart from the fact that the simpler something is, there less there > > is to go wrong.... > > All of the additional hardware to do it using an existing PC fits in a > Centronics-like dongle. If the PC's printer port is bi-directional, then You are assuming there's a PC on my workbench (or next to every classic machine I workon). There isn't... > there is no need or reason to even open the PC (if you run your PCs in > closed cases) Do you honestly think I put the case screws in my PC :-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jul 6 13:29:57 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2010 19:29:57 +0100 (BST) Subject: Happy 4th, and more apple 2 questions In-Reply-To: <20100705133857.I78216@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Jul 5, 10 01:43:07 pm Message-ID: > SVA (Sorrento Valley Associates) made an accessory disk controller for > Apple ]['s. I don't remember whether it supported MFM, or just FM, but it > did support 8" Many years ago I rememebr seeing a (commercial) add-on board for the Apple ][ that contained a WD1771 and was linked to a pair of 8" drives (standard Shugart interface from what I could tell). Of course that was FM< (single density) only I can;t rememerb who made it, my guess is there were several companines making such boards. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jul 6 13:32:26 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2010 19:32:26 +0100 (BST) Subject: Happy 4th, and more apple 2 questions In-Reply-To: from "Steven Hirsch" at Jul 5, 10 05:00:26 pm Message-ID: > The SVA Megaplex was one of my favorites! Two nearly identical sofware > loops one page apart in memory. One moved a sector's worth of bytes and > the other was an infinite loop. The FDC RDY* signal caused A8 to toggle > when data was available for read or ready for write. IIRC, the board had > 2k of SRAM for the firmware. ROM was a 256 byte PROM (unless I'm > confusing this with something else - it's been a while). Not a disk controller, and certainly not done for speed, but IIRC the original Apple ][ parallel interface card did something similar. The status line back from the printer went to an address input on the firmware ROM<, and thus the code extecuted depended on whether the printer was ready or not. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jul 6 13:35:58 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2010 19:35:58 +0100 (BST) Subject: Conecting new printer to a 286 In-Reply-To: <4C3249A8.8050502@aurigae.demon.co.uk> from "Phill Harvey-Smith" at Jul 5, 10 10:07:52 pm Message-ID: > > If the keyboard is a seperate unit and internally encoded (that is, it > > sends character codes or keycodes on a parallel or serial interface) it > > may not be too hard to make another machine pretend to be that keyboard. > > If it's just a matrix of switches, it mau be a little harder if you need > > to be able to press several keys at once. > > Microcontroler and a crosspoint switch IC such as the MT8816, is what I Sure. That's why I said 'a little harder' not 'difficult' :-) If you don't need multiple keypresses at once (and sane machines put the shift and control keys outside the matrix...) you can use a couple of TTL parts (a mux to select one of the scan lines and a decoder to drive the input lines. That's how I kludged up a keyboard for the HP9915, those TTL parts being in my junk box while crosspoint switches aren;t :-) -tony From dm561 at torfree.net Tue Jul 6 16:23:25 2010 From: dm561 at torfree.net (MikeS) Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2010 16:23:25 -0500 Subject: Conecting new printer to a 286 References: Message-ID: <17EF76DDA7E04E7BB199BF102F86ABAF@vl420mt> > Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2010 21:29:29 +0100 (BST) > From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) > Subject: Re: Conecting new printer to a 286 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain > >> >> On 5 Jul 2010 at 7:59, Glen Slick wrote: >> >> > Yes, you are confused. Tony's problem statement to which I replied >> > was capturing print data from a vintage PC to a USB capable host PC, >> > not printing from a vintage PC directly to a USB printer device. >> >> Well, to be sure, you can get DIP packages like the Elexol USBMOD4 >> parallel-to-USB transfer module that would entail little more than >> wiring up a cable. >> >> But there are so many scrapped PCs available with USB and > > As I have said many times, that depeends on where you are... > >> (bidirectional) parallel ports, what would be the point of building >> anything? > > You;ve not seen my workbench ;-). I doubt I could find space for a PC + > monitor+keybaord alongide any classic machbine I was working on. > > Quite apart from the fact that the simpler something is, there less there > is to go wrong.... > > -tony > ------------------------------ Seems to me all you'd need is a stock off-the-shelf Parallel>Serial converter feeding into a Serial<>USB converter, no? I use that setup for various things; PrtScn capturing PC BIOS setup screens for reference, debugging by judiciously inserting LPRINTs of key variables to save or display on a second screen, etc., and even for printing to serial printers from a parallel port... ;-) m From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Jul 6 15:52:34 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2010 13:52:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Conecting new printer to a 286 In-Reply-To: <17EF76DDA7E04E7BB199BF102F86ABAF@vl420mt> References: <17EF76DDA7E04E7BB199BF102F86ABAF@vl420mt> Message-ID: <20100706134418.O11989@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 6 Jul 2010, MikeS wrote: > Seems to me all you'd need is a stock off-the-shelf Parallel>Serial > converter feeding into a Serial<>USB converter, no? AND another PC. That will work fine for transferring files from a non-USB computer to a USB computer. Although many of the off-the-shelf Parallel>Serial converters make assumptions about the computer's parallel port and are not always reconfigurable for all. The original post was about how to connect a 286 computer to a "modern printer". The 286 machine does not have a USB port. Off the shelf Serial<>USB converters will NOT work unless they are connected to a computer with USB. They will NOT work connected to a USB printer without a computer that has USB. kk From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Tue Jul 6 17:08:07 2010 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2010 17:08:07 -0500 Subject: FS: Orion 1/10 In-Reply-To: <42023.47753.qm@web56204.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <42023.47753.qm@web56204.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4C33A947.20808@gmail.com> silvercreekvalley wrote: > Thinning out the collection a bit pending a move. If anyone has any > interest in the High Level Hardware Orion 1/10 computers (Clipper > CPU, NetBSD) I have several of these systems collected over > many years, and really only need to keep a couple (one to use, > one as a backup). > > If anyone has any interest in these machines, send me an email > of list. Based in the UK. Collection only on these items sorry, > they are bulky and heavy. I'd love one of those... bit far to move it across the Pond, though :-) Hope they all find good homes! cheers Jules From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Jul 6 19:08:12 2010 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2010 17:08:12 -0700 Subject: Interphase SMD controller In-Reply-To: <4C322AB3.8030805@neurotica.com> References: <4C322AB3.8030805@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4C33C56C.607@bitsavers.org> On 7/5/10 11:55 AM, Dave McGuire wrote: > There's no standard on-disk format for SMD drives, unfortunately. FYI, from a while ago: -- Newsgroups: comp.sys.prime Subject: Re: Abandoned Prime looking for new home (UK) Message-ID: <369pu29hl789kaf5j302ve22bstihhg2av at 4ax.com> Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2007 23:27:55 GMT On Mon, 05 Mar 2007 10:15:02 -0800, Al Kossow wrote: >Jim wrote: >> On Mar 4, 11:49 pm, Dennis Boone wrote: >> >>> You do realize the drives are Century 315's, i.e. 14" SMD drives, >>> right? > > >> I guess a determined person might be able to hook the drives up to a >> Sun or SGI with an Emulex SMD controller. > >Nope. You need to use a controller that understands the sector format >written by the Prime controller. Every vendor had their own way of doing >things like sector error checking/correction. Actually what every vendor did is to alter the actual sector layout. What was in the sector headers, data area of the sector and the error correcting code was very standard. While Prime put the Record ID on the front of the data portion of the sector (32 bits), it wasn't checked in the controller at all, it was checked by the disk driver after the record had been transferred to memory. 99% of SMD controllers used a standard sector/track/ 16 bit CRC code for the header on the sector, and virtually every one used the same 32 bit polynomial error correcting code in the data portion of the sector. (And everybody used the Chinese Remainder Theorem to calculate the correction). For the FS4 we consider using a 51 bit code, but dropped the resultant media would not be readable by a 4005 or IDC1, nor would 4005 or IDC1 written media be readable by us. The 51 bit code handled certain types of multibit errors much more gracefully. The 32 bit code would miscorrect if there were two errors, and the space between them was more than 9 bits. That is why any track that had more than one error on it was considered defective in the CDC spec. From dave at mitton.com Tue Jul 6 23:05:20 2010 From: dave at mitton.com (Dave Mitton) Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2010 00:05:20 -0400 Subject: yet another pdp-11 in fgpa In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20100707041224.7B12519D2156@smtprelay03.hostedemail.com> On 7/2/2010 01:00 PM, cctech-request at classiccmp.org wrote: >Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2010 11:08:37 +0200 >From: Johnny Billquist >Subject: Re: yet another pdp-11 in fgpa >To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >Message-ID: <4C2DAC95.1020900 at softjar.se> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > >allison wrote: > > > On 06/30/2010 11:27 AM, Johnny Billquist wrote: > >> > I'll reply to this one last time, and then I'll give up. > >(I can't seem to keep out, can I? :-) ) > > > I can't add too much to this regarding what parts and what DEC > > designators applied > > but here are memories of the time frame. > > > > The first multiprocessor 11/70 was built with existing hardware and a few > > wire wrap and jumper mods. Memory said there were 4 total, three > inside DEC > > and one at CMU that they hacked together possibly with DEC help. > >CMU did multiprocessor PDP-11s before DEC did, I think. However, they >went about it differently than the 11/74 (or whatever you want to call >it). Search for C.MMP and similar stuff on the net for more information >about CMUs multiprocessor PDP-11 projects. > >The 11/74 systems were designed and built inhouse, although they might >have talked with CMU to get help, experience and whatnot. Reportedly >more than three systems were built. Rumors have it that they even had >some systems out to external customers for test, but all systems were >returned at the end of the tests (even though there is a persistent >rumor about Ontario Hydro keeping their). > >I think I know of/heard of three systems that were in use inside DEC >long after the system was officially cancelled. We had, of course, >CASTOR:: which was the RSX engineering system, and which was up and >running as late as 2002 (2005?) or so. This was a 4-CPU system. >Then we had POLLUX::, which I think was a 2-CPU system. Not sure, but I >think it might have been DECnet engineering who had it. The third I've >heard about is PHEANX:: which might have been POLLUX:: after a move to >field service, and possibly also using bits and pieces from other >places inside DEC. > >As far as I know, all of these systems, as well as the ones gone out on >field test, were KB11-CM cpus. So, no CIS option ever made it out of >prototypes, nor any KB11-E. > >The boards from the 11/74 systems that were returned were allegedly used >in plain 11/70 machines inside DEC afterwards. They were, after all, >plug compatible with the normal 11/70 systems. The KB11-E boards would >not have been that, though. >.... I've been amused by the directions that this thread has taken over time... My memory of the specifics of models and features is weak, as I had moved on from DECnet-RSX to DECnet-DOS. This website has a slightly different cut: http://www.village.org/pdp11/faq.pages/never11s.html What I seem to remember was that CASTOR:: and POLLUX:: were the names when they ran those systems as dual CPUs in ZK. And they put the two together when they wanted to run the quad. But that could have changed over time. We were free to move node names around. The picture on http://www.miim.com/faq/hardware/multipro.html#castor is definitely of Brian McCarthy, a senior member of the RSX development group and that looks like the lab I've seen (only once that I remember) When DECnet-RSX development was in LKG (earlier TWO) circa 1980-early 90s, ELROND:: was our dual 11/74. When the multiprocessor project was dropped, we continued to run our dual as the primary development timeshare. Otherwise FS would just downgrade the system into something they would maintain like an 11/70. I do remember those ugly no switch panels that Field Circus installed on all our high end systems do they could do remote diagnostics. Ohhh, Google finds that Bitsavers has EK-70MP-TM, PDP-11/70 Multiprocessor Manual (Preliminary) http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp11/1174/EK-70MP-TM_PRE_1170mp_Prelim_Technical_Manual_1977.pdf Dave. From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 6 17:55:04 2010 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2010 15:55:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: regarding Datamaster's and such Message-ID: <479600.15547.qm@web65515.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> a picture (or 2) might help Sharon :) IIRC, the *8085* in the System 23/Datamaster wasn't identified as such. It had some sort of IBM house number. Haven't opened mine in a while, but that's what I remember. Be specific about what you mean by p/s issues. And if that's the case, you're advised to test the voltages under load...but not the motherboard load/s. Perhaps you have a repackaged Datamaster. Mine unfortunately is *unavailable* for perusal at this present time. I do believe there are other people on the list that have one, but they don't seem to participate these days. Mine is buried beneath about 12 other machines (was I supposed to put it on top? It weighs ~95 lbs yer know). From tosteve at yahoo.com Wed Jul 7 01:21:35 2010 From: tosteve at yahoo.com (steven stengel) Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2010 23:21:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: regarding Datamaster's and such In-Reply-To: <479600.15547.qm@web65515.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <73341.98185.qm@web110613.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> I have a Datamaster, but I missed the conversation. Is there something I can help with? Mine is buried only one-deep. --- On Tue, 7/6/10, Chris M wrote: > From: Chris M > Subject: regarding Datamaster's and such > To: "talk" > Date: Tuesday, July 6, 2010, 3:55 PM > a picture (or 2) might help Sharon > :) > > IIRC, the *8085* in the System 23/Datamaster wasn't > identified as such. It had some sort of IBM house number. > Haven't opened mine in a while, but that's what I remember. > > Be specific about what you mean by p/s issues. And if > that's the case, you're advised to test the voltages under > load...but not the motherboard load/s. > > Perhaps you have a repackaged Datamaster. Mine > unfortunately is *unavailable* for perusal at this present > time. I do believe there are other people on the list that > have one, but they don't seem to participate these days. > Mine is buried beneath about 12 other machines (was I > supposed to put it on top? It weighs ~95 lbs yer know). > > > ? ? ? > > From tosteve at yahoo.com Wed Jul 7 01:21:36 2010 From: tosteve at yahoo.com (steven stengel) Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2010 23:21:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: regarding Datamaster's and such In-Reply-To: <479600.15547.qm@web65515.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <88926.2228.qm@web110615.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> I have a Datamaster, but I missed the conversation. Is there something I can help with? Mine is buried only one-deep. --- On Tue, 7/6/10, Chris M wrote: > From: Chris M > Subject: regarding Datamaster's and such > To: "talk" > Date: Tuesday, July 6, 2010, 3:55 PM > a picture (or 2) might help Sharon > :) > > IIRC, the *8085* in the System 23/Datamaster wasn't > identified as such. It had some sort of IBM house number. > Haven't opened mine in a while, but that's what I remember. > > Be specific about what you mean by p/s issues. And if > that's the case, you're advised to test the voltages under > load...but not the motherboard load/s. > > Perhaps you have a repackaged Datamaster. Mine > unfortunately is *unavailable* for perusal at this present > time. I do believe there are other people on the list that > have one, but they don't seem to participate these days. > Mine is buried beneath about 12 other machines (was I > supposed to put it on top? It weighs ~95 lbs yer know). > > > ? ? ? > > From tosteve at yahoo.com Wed Jul 7 01:21:37 2010 From: tosteve at yahoo.com (steven stengel) Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2010 23:21:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: regarding Datamaster's and such In-Reply-To: <479600.15547.qm@web65515.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <32158.30257.qm@web110603.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> I have a Datamaster, but I missed the conversation. Is there something I can help with? Mine is buried only one-deep. --- On Tue, 7/6/10, Chris M wrote: > From: Chris M > Subject: regarding Datamaster's and such > To: "talk" > Date: Tuesday, July 6, 2010, 3:55 PM > a picture (or 2) might help Sharon > :) > > IIRC, the *8085* in the System 23/Datamaster wasn't > identified as such. It had some sort of IBM house number. > Haven't opened mine in a while, but that's what I remember. > > Be specific about what you mean by p/s issues. And if > that's the case, you're advised to test the voltages under > load...but not the motherboard load/s. > > Perhaps you have a repackaged Datamaster. Mine > unfortunately is *unavailable* for perusal at this present > time. I do believe there are other people on the list that > have one, but they don't seem to participate these days. > Mine is buried beneath about 12 other machines (was I > supposed to put it on top? It weighs ~95 lbs yer know). > > > ? ? ? > > From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Wed Jul 7 05:06:22 2010 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2010 12:06:22 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Interphase SMD controller In-Reply-To: <4C33C56C.607@bitsavers.org> References: <4C322AB3.8030805@neurotica.com> <4C33C56C.607@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Tue, 6 Jul 2010, Al Kossow wrote: > FYI, from a while ago: [...] Thanks for the pointer! But I doubt that I will be able to read the drive with a Xylogics 451, for example. According to the Xylogics manual, there are two supported disk formats, the 440 format and the 450 format. They differ in the header field, the SYNC byte is $98 resp. $CC, and header byte 2 additionally contains a "sector" field. The format and sector size is configured by several PROMs. Not to speak from other controllers... Any way, I will give it a try. Christian From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Wed Jul 7 05:10:18 2010 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2010 12:10:18 +0200 (CEST) Subject: regarding Datamaster's and such In-Reply-To: <479600.15547.qm@web65515.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> References: <479600.15547.qm@web65515.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 6 Jul 2010, Chris M wrote: > IIRC, the *8085* in the System 23/Datamaster wasn't identified as such. According to my list, the 8085 has the IBM number 4178615. Christian From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Jul 7 09:11:39 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2010 10:11:39 -0400 Subject: Interphase SMD controller In-Reply-To: References: <4C322AB3.8030805@neurotica.com> <4C33C56C.607@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4C348B1B.9030604@neurotica.com> On 7/7/10 6:06 AM, Christian Corti wrote: > On Tue, 6 Jul 2010, Al Kossow wrote: >> FYI, from a while ago: > [...] > > Thanks for the pointer! > But I doubt that I will be able to read the drive with a Xylogics 451, > for example. According to the Xylogics manual, there are two supported > disk formats, the 440 format and the 450 format. They differ in the > header field, the SYNC byte is $98 resp. $CC, and header byte 2 > additionally contains a "sector" field. The format and sector size is > configured by several PROMs. Not to speak from other controllers... > Any way, I will give it a try. Also, I don't know if this will be helpful or not, but the Xylogics 450/451 format is not compatible with the 7053/753 format. (I learned that the hard way at work around 1993 or so, trying to move existing 451-controlled disks to the much faster 7053 and 753 controllers) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From dm561 at torfree.net Wed Jul 7 15:02:03 2010 From: dm561 at torfree.net (MikeS) Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2010 15:02:03 -0500 Subject: Conecting new printer to a 286 References: Message-ID: <532512ACB45344F7BE8C497C7BCA0AA9@vl420mt> > Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2010 13:52:34 -0700 (PDT) > From: Fred Cisin > Subject: Re: Conecting new printer to a 286 > > On Tue, 6 Jul 2010, MikeS wrote: >> Seems to me all you'd need is a stock off-the-shelf Parallel>Serial >> converter feeding into a Serial<>USB converter, no? > > AND another PC. > > That will work fine for transferring files from a non-USB computer to a > USB computer. Although many of the off-the-shelf Parallel>Serial > converters make assumptions about the computer's parallel port and are not > always reconfigurable for all. > > The original post was about how to connect a 286 computer to a "modern > printer". > The 286 machine does not have a USB port. > Off the shelf Serial<>USB converters will NOT work unless they are > connected to a computer with USB. They will NOT work connected to a USB > printer without a computer that has USB. > kk > > > ------------------------------ Umm, yes, that's all quite obvious but I was commenting on Tony's suggestion below; considering that most inexpensive "modern printers" can no longer print ASCII, this is probably the way you'd have to go anyway: [QUOTE] > Um, I'm confused. The FT245R is a slave device. Would it not > require a host controller to interface to a USB printer? The FT245 > ISTR always looks like a communications device. It would, if you wanted to connect it straight to the printer. My idea was a device to let you get the data off the classic machine onto a modern PC, and then format/print it from there. In which case a slave USB device is what is needed. -tony [/QUOTE] m From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Jul 7 14:31:41 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2010 12:31:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Conecting new printer to a 286 In-Reply-To: <532512ACB45344F7BE8C497C7BCA0AA9@vl420mt> References: <532512ACB45344F7BE8C497C7BCA0AA9@vl420mt> Message-ID: <20100707122602.L51186@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 7 Jul 2010, MikeS wrote: > Umm, yes, that's all quite obvious but I was commenting on Tony's > suggestion below; considering that most inexpensive "modern printers" can no > longer print ASCII, this is probably the way you'd have to go anyway: THAT is the big problem. Cabling an old computer to a "modern" printer, is not only difficult, but futile unless you write drivers, or run it through the selection of printer drivers in Windoze 3.1, Ventura's drivers, Paintbrush, etc. If it really has to be a "cable" connecting the old or alien computer to the modern printer, then take a early Pentium laptop, cable the alien computer to the printer port of the laptop, cand cable the laptop to the modern printer. start the software, and then wrap the laptop and the cables in a lot of duct tape until it looks like a cable with a lump. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jul 7 14:58:31 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2010 20:58:31 +0100 (BST) Subject: Conecting new printer to a 286 In-Reply-To: <17EF76DDA7E04E7BB199BF102F86ABAF@vl420mt> from "MikeS" at Jul 6, 10 04:23:25 pm Message-ID: [Capturing the printer output data from a classic machine on a modern PC] > > You;ve not seen my workbench ;-). I doubt I could find space for a PC + > > monitor+keybaord alongide any classic machbine I was working on. > > > > Quite apart from the fact that the simpler something is, there less there > > is to go wrong.... > > > > -tony > > ------------------------------ > > Seems to me all you'd need is a stock off-the-shelf Parallel>Serial > converter feeding into a Serial<>USB converter, no? Quite likely, although the former tends to be a lot more expensive and harder to find than the latter... However, the former (parallel-serial) is also the easy part to build. As I said in an earlier message, you can do it with a few TTL chips [1], a dumb UART and a bit of logic, or a microcontroller, depending on your likes and dislikes. [1] I built one _many_ years ago to use an ASR33 as a (slow) punch on a device that was expecting to drive a Facti 4070. I used a few TTL chips. I didn't have any shift registers in the junk box, so I used a multiplexer and counter. Basically, the counter was normally held reset. The paralell output strobe set a flip-floip whicl allowed the counter to run. This contorlled the mux, which selelected a hard-wired start bit, then the 8 data bits in turn, then a couple of hardwired stop bits. And then a bit of logic cleared the FF, dorcing the conunter to be reset. And of course the output of the FF was also the busy signal back to the host. As I said , a a few TTL chips... > I use that setup for various things; PrtScn capturing PC BIOS setup screens > for reference, debugging by judiciously inserting LPRINTs of key variables > to save or display on a second screen, etc., and even for printing to serial > printers from a parallel port... ;-) It's a pity the Ferret doesn't have a parallel input facility. For those who've not seen this strange piece of computer history, it's a portable (built in an attache' case) device that combines an RS232 breakout box, RS232 interface, parallel output interface (Centroncis or Dataproducts IIRC), current loop interface, strip printer, casette interface, EPROM programmer (!) and Z80 computer. It will do serial (either RS232 or current loop) to parallel conversions as standard, it will also do RS232 <-> current loop with differnet baud rates on the 2 sides. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jul 7 15:02:47 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2010 21:02:47 +0100 (BST) Subject: regarding Datamaster's and such In-Reply-To: from "Christian Corti" at Jul 7, 10 12:10:18 pm Message-ID: > > On Tue, 6 Jul 2010, Chris M wrote: > > IIRC, the *8085* in the System 23/Datamaster wasn't identified as such. > > According to my list, the 8085 has the IBM number 4178615. I was goingto ask... There is a well-known equivalents list between HP house numbers and stnadard numbers in various issues of Bench Briefs (which are now on the web I think). IS there a similar list for IBM house numbers... [With reference to the HP list, be careful. Some chips were dropped from later editions of thr list, it appears only those chips in instruemtns that were still supported by HP are included. You may need to check several lists to find the IC. Don't ask how I discovered this!] -tony From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Thu Jul 8 04:02:13 2010 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2010 11:02:13 +0200 (CEST) Subject: IBM house numbers (was: regarding Datamaster's and such) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 7 Jul 2010, Tony Duell wrote: > I was goingto ask... > > There is a well-known equivalents list between HP house numbers and > stnadard numbers in various issues of Bench Briefs (which are now on the > web I think). IS there a similar list for IBM house numbers... Well, not officially and not as exhaustive, but here's what I have (collected from some bad photocopies that I got from an IBM employee): ftp://ftp.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pub/cm/ibmparts.txt Christian From stephane.tsacas at gmail.com Thu Jul 8 07:00:26 2010 From: stephane.tsacas at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?St=E9phane_Tsacas?=) Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2010 14:00:26 +0200 Subject: yet another pdp-11 in fgpa In-Reply-To: <20100707041224.7B12519D2156@smtprelay03.hostedemail.com> References: <20100707041224.7B12519D2156@smtprelay03.hostedemail.com> Message-ID: http://www.opencores.com/project,w11 Great! Thanks! Stephane http://DECpicted.blogspot.com From lynn at gdca.com Thu Jul 8 10:16:48 2010 From: lynn at gdca.com (Lynn McFarland) Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2010 08:16:48 -0700 Subject: wanted ; docs for Omnibyte Corp OB68K1A multibus SBC Message-ID: Hi, I am looking to buy the OB68K1A board by Omnibyte. Do you have any? Thanks, Lynn From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Jul 8 22:58:50 2010 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2010 20:58:50 -0700 Subject: wanted ; docs for Omnibyte Corp OB68K1A multibus SBC In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C369E7A.1060203@bitsavers.org> On 7/8/10 8:16 AM, Lynn McFarland wrote: > Hi, > I am looking to buy the OB68K1A board by Omnibyte. Do you have any? > Thanks, > Lynn > > so what are you looking for, the docs or the board? From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Fri Jul 9 07:03:56 2010 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2010 14:03:56 +0200 (CEST) Subject: MDS Series 21 In-Reply-To: <4BCC7CBE.2070407@bitsavers.org> References: <4BCC7CBE.2070407@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Mon, 19 Apr 2010, Al Kossow wrote: > If you do decide to scrap it, getting pics of the components/boards and > noting what the processor was would be of interest. Ok, so we've rescued the system. It is an MDS 21/40 (it was a 21/20, built 1979, but has been upgraded around 1982) and came with a couple of terminals. I expected an interesting CPU of some kind, but no, it's "just" a Z80 system with currently 384(?) kB of RAM. BUT: the most impressive thing is the Shugart 4008 hard disk with its clear plasic cover, really nice to see! The purpose of the system was data entry and processing. It can be programmed in MOBOL, the Mohawk Business Oriented Language. It loosely resembles COBOL but yet is very different. I've scanned the MOBOL reference manual and the Series 21 operator's guide. As always they can be found on our FTP server: ftp://ftp.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pub/cm/mds21/ (Al: you may pick up any of the documents on the FTP server for bitsavers) BTW this system was still running until some months ago! It was used in a bovine insemination institute (is that the correct term?)... Christian From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Jul 9 10:55:16 2010 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2010 08:55:16 -0700 Subject: MDS Series 21 In-Reply-To: References: <4BCC7CBE.2070407@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4C374664.2050702@bitsavers.org> On 7/9/10 5:03 AM, Christian Corti wrote: > (Al: you may pick up any of the documents on the FTP server for bitsavers) > Thanks! We received some documentation on the Goettingen G2 and G3 yesterday, which will be on line soon. From dkelvey at hotmail.com Fri Jul 9 11:28:18 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2010 09:28:18 -0700 Subject: MDS Series 21 In-Reply-To: <4C374664.2050702@bitsavers.org> References: <4BCC7CBE.2070407@bitsavers.org>, , <4C374664.2050702@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: > Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2010 08:55:16 -0700 > From: aek at bitsavers.org > To: > Subject: Re: MDS Series 21 > > On 7/9/10 5:03 AM, Christian Corti wrote: > > > (Al: you may pick up any of the documents on the FTP server for bitsavers) > > > > Thanks! > > We received some documentation on the Goettingen G2 and G3 yesterday, which will be on line soon. > > Hi When ever I see MDS, the first thing I think of is the Intel development systems. I realize these are not them but it always catches my eye. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ The New Busy is not the too busy. Combine all your e-mail accounts with Hotmail. http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?tile=multiaccount&ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_4 From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jul 9 11:41:49 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2010 09:41:49 -0700 Subject: MDS Series 21 In-Reply-To: References: , <4C374664.2050702@bitsavers.org>, Message-ID: <4C36EEDD.8315.49D974@cclist.sydex.com> On 9 Jul 2010 at 9:28, dwight elvey wrote: > When ever I see MDS, the first thing I think of is the Intel > development systems. I realize these are not them but it always > catches my eye. I initially read the title as "MDS Series 2" and thought the same as you initially. Then, when I read the body, I suspected that it might mean a Mohawk system. Even though I was acquainted with folks who worked at the Los Gatos operation (curiously, a fair-sized Korean contingient), I knew very little about the Mohawk systems. Did any use proprietary CPUs? --Chuck From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Jul 9 12:36:49 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2010 10:36:49 -0700 Subject: MDS Series 21 In-Reply-To: References: <4BCC7CBE.2070407@bitsavers.org>, , <4C374664.2050702@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4C375E31.80108@brouhaha.com> Dwight wrote: > When ever I see MDS, the first thing I think of is the Intel > development systems. I realize these are not them but it always > catches my eye. > A lot of Intel literature from the 80s had a disclaimer in fine print about how MDS was *not* an Intel trademark, it was just an "ordering code" or some such. Of course, a lot of Intel literature from the 70s and 80s also claimed that the instruction mnemonics for the 8080, 8085, 8086/8, etc. were copyrighted. While I don't think they could have prevailed on that, it may be a contributing factor to why Zilog invented an entirely different set of mnemonics. (I always thought the Zilog ones made more sense anyhow, e.g., "LD" for all instructions that load a register.) Eric From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jul 9 14:28:30 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2010 12:28:30 -0700 Subject: MDS Series 21 In-Reply-To: <4C375E31.80108@brouhaha.com> References: , , <4C375E31.80108@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4C3715EE.11908.E27498@cclist.sydex.com> On 9 Jul 2010 at 10:36, Eric Smith wrote: > Of course, a lot of Intel literature from the 70s and 80s also claimed > that the instruction mnemonics for the 8080, 8085, 8086/8, etc. were > copyrighted. While I don't think they could have prevailed on that, > it may be a contributing factor to why Zilog invented an entirely > different set of mnemonics. (I always thought the Zilog ones made > more sense anyhow, e.g., "LD" for all instructions that load a > register.) WYKIWYL. In 8086 parlance, the "LOAD" instruction went out of the vocabulary but for a few instructions, such as LES or LEA. Everything else became a MOVe. Perhaps that was necessary, as there was no longer a one-to-one correspondence between the mnemonic form and the code generated--there is often more than one way in machine code to express an action. So you'll often see a discrepancy between what MASM (or any other assembler) and what the DEBUG assembler generates. C'est la vie. --Chuck From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Jul 9 20:00:13 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2010 21:00:13 -0400 Subject: DECboard X Message-ID: I have a couple of boards, clearly DEC, with numbers X020 and X030. They are both hex height - pretty standard, with the cast metal bracket holding the board ejectors. The X020 board is marked DATA PATH and the X030 board is marked CDC DISK CONTROL. Are these for the DEC badged CDC 97xx drives? -- Will From sspurling at gmail.com Fri Jul 9 22:17:40 2010 From: sspurling at gmail.com (Shannon Spurling) Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2010 22:17:40 -0500 Subject: regarding Datamaster's and such In-Reply-To: <32158.30257.qm@web110603.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <32158.30257.qm@web110603.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4C37E654.2060509@gmail.com> Well, I have what is labeled as an IBM 5324. It appears to be a three piece system from the datamaster line, with a seperate CPU tower, monitor, keyboard, and printer. Only thing is, I can find no information on this thing actually being made. I am trying to verify that the power supply is actually working, but I have no data on it. Now, I also asked about basic in ROM. Someone said they didn't. I read they did, or at least some of them did. I can't find anything on an operating system, and the thing appears to have a lot of rom chips on the board. These are the things I have found so far: IBM indicates some hardware and software options in the datamaster line in their 1982 summary documents. Nothing else indicates anything other than a one piece unit was offered. Nothing else indicates a model with this number even though this thing is tagged all over as IBM hardware made in New York. From http://oldcomputers.net/ibm5322.html The OS is listed as built in basic, and the ram card and CPU "module" in this system is the same as what you see in my tower unit. You can see the floppy controller card plugged in on the far side of the CPU card with the yellow interface cable wires. In fact, I just need to know the nominal voltages that should be found on that red power connector. I have a feeling that I am missing some +5 and +12 power feeds, but I need to know what I am looking at. I measured using chassis ground and only got voltages on a couple of pins, and they all appeared to be negative. I think I am going to have to open the power supply, but those large caps always make me nervous. This is the same board, way different format, and all genuine IBM. I have that same green monitor in a separate unit with two cables that connect back to the tower. It has two legs that go up in the monitor cabinet that the thing can lift and drop on, and tilt. It has been in "storage" for a while, so I rather clean it up before I take any pictures of it. Maybe I'll get a chance to do that next week. If I need any software or 8" floppies where can I find those? And is there any refrence manuals? You would think someone could find this stuff online someplace. Thanks Shannon On 7/7/2010 1:21 AM, steven stengel wrote: > I have a Datamaster, but I missed the conversation. > Is there something I can help with? > Mine is buried only one-deep. > > > > --- On Tue, 7/6/10, Chris M wrote: > >> From: Chris M >> Subject: regarding Datamaster's and such >> To: "talk" >> Date: Tuesday, July 6, 2010, 3:55 PM >> a picture (or 2) might help Sharon >> :) >> >> IIRC, the *8085* in the System 23/Datamaster wasn't >> identified as such. It had some sort of IBM house number. >> Haven't opened mine in a while, but that's what I remember. >> >> Be specific about what you mean by p/s issues. And if >> that's the case, you're advised to test the voltages under >> load...but not the motherboard load/s. >> >> Perhaps you have a repackaged Datamaster. Mine >> unfortunately is *unavailable* for perusal at this present >> time. I do believe there are other people on the list that >> have one, but they don't seem to participate these days. >> Mine is buried beneath about 12 other machines (was I >> supposed to put it on top? It weighs ~95 lbs yer know). >> >> >> >> >> > > > > From als at thangorodrim.de Sat Jul 10 08:06:55 2010 From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2010 15:06:55 +0200 Subject: partial P112 kits In-Reply-To: <45F4E9DB-8855-49FE-8534-F3F64ACAC2C7@feedle.net> References: <45F4E9DB-8855-49FE-8534-F3F64ACAC2C7@feedle.net> Message-ID: <20100710130655.GA1397@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> On Mon, Jun 21, 2010 at 01:00:42PM -0700, A. Christoff Baumann wrote: > > On Jun 21, 2010, at 12:42 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > > > Because there's no pain, it's actually fun. And if I do it myself, I can > > use the lead/tin solder which I still believe is more reliable. > > I'm not convinced either way on the "reliability" angle. Well, tin whiskers are quite real. It is also rather telling that IIRC aviation and medical electronics can still use leaded solder when consumer goods have to use lead free solder ... Kind regards, Alex. -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison From rachael at telefisk.org Sat Jul 10 09:21:38 2010 From: rachael at telefisk.org (Jacob Dahl Pind) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2010 16:21:38 +0200 Subject: ot: powermac g5 taking apart Message-ID: <4C3881F2.6050207@telefisk.org> sorry to post offtopic, but I know we have a few apple users here, and I was hoping for some insigts into taking an powermac g5 2,7ghz dual apart, I brough it home last week along with an g4 quicksilver 2002. So we still a few years to go for them. The powermac g5 is running very hot on the memory controler heatsink u3, but it seem that part is actual placed on the backside of the mainboard, and cooled by a heatpipe that connects to the aluminium case, but as its running at 65 to 76 degree celsius, I am a bit worried. Regards Jacob Dahl Pind From lproven at gmail.com Sat Jul 10 08:52:27 2010 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2010 14:52:27 +0100 Subject: ot: powermac g5 taking apart In-Reply-To: <4C3881F2.6050207@telefisk.org> References: <4C3881F2.6050207@telefisk.org> Message-ID: On 10 July 2010 15:21, Jacob Dahl Pind wrote: > sorry to post offtopic, but I know we have a few apple users here, and I > was hoping for some insigts into taking an powermac g5 2,7ghz dual > apart, I brough it home last week along with an g4 quicksilver 2002. So > we still a few years to go for them. > The powermac g5 is running very hot on the memory controler heatsink u3, > but it seem that part is actual placed on the backside of the mainboard, > and cooled by a heatpipe that connects to the aluminium case, but as its > running at 65 to 76 degree celsius, I am a bit worried. Try this: http://www.ifixit.com/Guide/Device/Power_Mac_G5 -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? LiveJournal/Twitter: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sat Jul 10 09:27:39 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2010 07:27:39 -0700 Subject: Apple II printer board In-Reply-To: <4C3715EE.11908.E27498@cclist.sydex.com> References: , , , , <4C375E31.80108@brouhaha.com>, <4C3715EE.11908.E27498@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: Hi I just got a apple iie with what looks like a parallel printer board. It has a connector to a push switch that I understand was to print the current screen. Waht I'm looking for is information on the setup switchs. It is made by Texprint and has big letters "PRINT-IT!". Any help? Dwight _________________________________________________________________ The New Busy is not the too busy. Combine all your e-mail accounts with Hotmail. http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?tile=multiaccount&ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_4 From rachael at telefisk.org Sat Jul 10 12:24:11 2010 From: rachael at telefisk.org (Jacob Dahl Pind) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2010 19:24:11 +0200 Subject: ot: powermac g5 taking apart In-Reply-To: References: <4C3881F2.6050207@telefisk.org> Message-ID: <4C38ACBB.1020905@telefisk.org> On 07/10/2010 03:52 PM, Liam Proven wrote: > On 10 July 2010 15:21, Jacob Dahl Pind wrote: > >> sorry to post offtopic, but I know we have a few apple users here, and I >> was hoping for some insigts into taking an powermac g5 2,7ghz dual >> apart, I brough it home last week along with an g4 quicksilver 2002. So >> we still a few years to go for them. >> The powermac g5 is running very hot on the memory controler heatsink u3, >> but it seem that part is actual placed on the backside of the mainboard, >> and cooled by a heatpipe that connects to the aluminium case, but as its >> running at 65 to 76 degree celsius, I am a bit worried. >> > Try this: > http://www.ifixit.com/Guide/Device/Power_Mac_G5 > > > Thanks will be a great help figuring out how to take it apart. From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Sat Jul 10 12:46:46 2010 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2010 12:46:46 -0500 Subject: Iomega Bernoulli Box 20+20 (A220H) In-Reply-To: <4C2D0410.1615.2C6F772@cclist.sydex.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20100701171352.0ba34848@localhost>, <4C2D60D3.5010308@brutman.com> <4C2D0410.1615.2C6F772@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4C38B206.4090806@brutman.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 1 Jul 2010 at 22:45, Michael B. Brutman wrote: > >> Does anybody know of a good source for off-the-wall SCSI cabling? I'd >> like to run this from a SCSI 1 or SCSI 2 card, and I have a variety of >> cabling that has Centronics or DB25 connectors. But the DB37 is >> foreign to me, so I need to find a cable or an adapter for my existing >> cables. > > The original 5.25" PC2 cable was a DC37F on the controller end and a > 50-position "Amphenol"/"Blue Ribbon"/"Telco"/"Centronics" male at the > far end of the cable that hooked to the drive. > > But I've got the ugly suspicion that going from a DB25 to a DC37 is > going to be an exercise for your crimpers and some multiconductor > round cable. It's been a long time since I've seen a DC37 > Novell/Procomp SCSI cable. > > --Chuck > > > > I was able to find the cable from a list member (Thanks Rick!), but I'm still having doubts about this thing being SCSI. There is no provision for setting the ID on the case, and there is no termination or passthru to continue the SCSI chain. It's possible that it is terminated by the electronics inside and that the ID is buried inside before too, but I'm going to have to get very involved to open it up. Can anybody confirm that the older Bernoulli boxes were SCSI? What controllers are you using them on? Regards, Mike From cclist at sydex.com Sat Jul 10 16:27:09 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2010 14:27:09 -0700 Subject: Iomega Bernoulli Box 20+20 (A220H) In-Reply-To: <4C38B206.4090806@brutman.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20100701171352.0ba34848@localhost>, <4C2D0410.1615.2C6F772@cclist.sydex.com>, <4C38B206.4090806@brutman.com> Message-ID: <4C38833D.7009.13C42B5@cclist.sydex.com> On 10 Jul 2010 at 12:46, Michael B. Brutman wrote: > I was able to find the cable from a list member (Thanks Rick!), but > I'm still having doubts about this thing being SCSI. There is no > provision for setting the ID on the case, and there is no termination > or passthru to continue the SCSI chain. It's possible that it is > terminated by the electronics inside and that the ID is buried inside > before too, but I'm going to have to get very involved to open it up. I'm assuming that this model is the one that's got a 5150-style case (i..e. beige/putty color with a lighter PC-style bezel on the front). I've got a PC2B-50 controller that came with the 150MB unit (DC37 on the rear) and it's the same that was used with the 10MB Bernoullis. Take a peek inside your box--you should see that the DC37 on the rear connects to a 50 pin header on each drive. If not, I don't know what's going on. Note that I say "SCSI-ish". The later models were completely SCSI-1 compliant, but some of the earlier models didn't support all of the SCSI command set for mass-storage devices. --Chuck From lynchaj at yahoo.com Sat Jul 10 16:48:41 2010 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2010 17:48:41 -0400 Subject: 68K ISA project Message-ID: Hi! Just out of curiosity does anyone know of any home brew ISA bus 68K boards? I've seen numerous home brew 68K projects of varying styles but none meant to plug into the PC/AT ISA bus. I tried Google but nothing obvious turned up. Ideas/URLs appreciated. Thanks and have a nice day! Andrew Lynch PS, something like this but with more detail http://john.ccac.rwth-aachen.de:8000/as/pcpar.html From glen.slick at gmail.com Sat Jul 10 19:12:01 2010 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2010 17:12:01 -0700 Subject: 68K ISA project In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Jul 10, 2010 at 2:48 PM, Andrew Lynch wrote: > Hi! Just out of curiosity does anyone know of any home brew ISA bus 68K > boards? > Not a home brew board, but the HP Measurement Coprocessor was a 68000 based, or 68030 based in the second generation, board which plugged into an ISA bus and was roughly equivalent to an HP 9000 series 200 or 300 workstation. The April 1992 HP Journal has an article describing the second generation 82324A board. http://www.hpl.hp.com/hpjournal/pdfs/IssuePDFs/1992-04.pdf (24MB color PDF) ftp://ftp.agilent.com/pub/mpusup/pc/old/vp_over.html From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Sat Jul 10 19:22:24 2010 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2010 19:22:24 -0500 Subject: Iomega Bernoulli Box 20+20 (A220H) In-Reply-To: <4C38833D.7009.13C42B5@cclist.sydex.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20100701171352.0ba34848@localhost>, <4C2D0410.1615.2C6F772@cclist.sydex.com>, <4C38B206.4090806@brutman.com> <4C38833D.7009.13C42B5@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4C390EC0.5090003@brutman.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > I'm assuming that this model is the one that's got a 5150-style case > (i..e. beige/putty color with a lighter PC-style bezel on the front). > > I've got a PC2B-50 controller that came with the 150MB unit (DC37 on > the rear) and it's the same that was used with the 10MB Bernoullis. > > Take a peek inside your box--you should see that the DC37 on the rear > connects to a 50 pin header on each drive. If not, I don't know > what's going on. > > Note that I say "SCSI-ish". The later models were completely SCSI-1 > compliant, but some of the earlier models didn't support all of the > SCSI command set for mass-storage devices. > > --Chuck It has the beige/putty case. I took a look inside of it and found the DC37 feeding a 50 pin connector, just as you described. I think I have a cabling problem. I was able to hack together a solution that allowed me to connect directly to the drive, bypassing the DC37 connector. The drive showed up on the SCSI chain, but that's as far as I'm going to get without media. So yes, I think it is SCSI. Just need to figure out the cabling problem. The cable that I got looked like a sure bet - Centronics style connector on one side, DC37 on the other. Mike PS: You must have quite a stash. I'll bet you're missing a PCjr though. :-) From cclist at sydex.com Sat Jul 10 19:30:18 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2010 17:30:18 -0700 Subject: Iomega Bernoulli Box 20+20 (A220H) In-Reply-To: <4C390EC0.5090003@brutman.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20100701171352.0ba34848@localhost>, <4C38833D.7009.13C42B5@cclist.sydex.com>, <4C390EC0.5090003@brutman.com> Message-ID: <4C38AE2A.1446.1E3F06D@cclist.sydex.com> On 10 Jul 2010 at 19:22, Michael B. Brutman wrote: > I think I have a cabling problem. I was able to hack together a > solution that allowed me to connect directly to the drive, bypassing > the DC37 connector. The drive showed up on the SCSI chain, but that's > as far as I'm going to get without media. Get your nibbler and drill out and replace that DC37 with a 50- conductor "Amphenol/Blue Ribbon/Centronics" connector or even a 50 position HD SCSI connector. Actually, two would be nice--that would allow you to daisy-chain off the device. > PS: You must have quite a stash. I'll bet you're missing a PCjr > though. :-) Heh, I never wanted one. :) --Chuck From lproven at gmail.com Sun Jul 11 10:36:03 2010 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2010 16:36:03 +0100 Subject: 68K ISA project In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 10 July 2010 22:48, Andrew Lynch wrote: > Hi! Just out of curiosity does anyone know of any home brew ISA bus 68K > boards? > > I've seen numerous home brew 68K projects of varying styles but none meant > to plug into the PC/AT ISA bus. I tried Google but nothing obvious turned > up. Ideas/URLs appreciated. > > Thanks and have a nice day! The QXL was more or less exactly that: http://www.rwapadventures.com/ql_wiki/index.php?title=QXL%20Card http://www.rwapsoftware.co.uk/sinclairql.html http://sinclairql.emuunlim.com/hardware.html If you wanted a 680x0 motherboard with ISA slots, the Q40 or Q60 are just that: http://www.q40.de/ -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? LiveJournal/Twitter: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From lynchaj at yahoo.com Sun Jul 11 12:52:35 2010 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2010 13:52:35 -0400 Subject: 68K ISA project Message-ID: <6A06A4C2E22A4D61A223BF9F3C706EAA@andrewdesktop> > -----Original Message----- > From: Andrew Lynch [mailto:lynchaj at yahoo.com] > Sent: Saturday, July 10, 2010 5:49 PM > To: 'cctalk at classiccmp.org' > Subject: 68K ISA project > > Hi! Just out of curiosity does anyone know of any home brew ISA bus 68K > boards? > > I've seen numerous home brew 68K projects of varying styles but none meant > to plug into the PC/AT ISA bus. I tried Google but nothing obvious turned > up. Ideas/URLs appreciated. > > Thanks and have a nice day! > > Andrew Lynch > > PS, something like this but with more detail > > http://john.ccac.rwth-aachen.de:8000/as/pcpar.html [AJL>] Hi! Thanks for the replies. Please let me further clarify what I am looking for. As part of the N8VEM project I do research into what sorts of designs are possible and practical for home brew constructions. Part of that is researching what sort of home brew/hobbyist designs have gone before to see what has been done and how it was designed and constructed. Commercial solutions are available however they are typically proprietary and lack the important schematics and/or other design information I need. I am not aware of any 68K home brew projects for the ISA bus with the exception of the PCPAR68000 mentioned in the 1989 mc article. Would anyone have access to that article or other similar 68K ISA bus projects? Similarly home brew S-100 68K type projects would also work although not the commercial CompuPro or Cromemco 68K boards. Thanks and have a nice day! Andrew Lynch From emu at e-bbes.com Sun Jul 11 13:05:21 2010 From: emu at e-bbes.com (e.stiebler) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2010 12:05:21 -0600 Subject: 68K ISA project In-Reply-To: <6A06A4C2E22A4D61A223BF9F3C706EAA@andrewdesktop> References: <6A06A4C2E22A4D61A223BF9F3C706EAA@andrewdesktop> Message-ID: <4C3A07E1.80000@e-bbes.com> On 2010-07-11 11:52, Andrew Lynch wrote: > Hi! Thanks for the replies. Please let me further clarify what I am > looking for. As part of the N8VEM project I do research into what sorts of > designs are possible and practical for home brew constructions. Part of > that is researching what sort of home brew/hobbyist designs have gone before > to see what has been done and how it was designed and constructed. > Commercial solutions are available however they are typically proprietary > and lack the important schematics and/or other design information I need. Why do you like to have it on ISA ? There were few mc68k computers on VME, etc. which used the same connector you use already on your other designs. What wrong with that ? Cheers From ken at seefried.com Sun Jul 11 14:33:15 2010 From: ken at seefried.com (KJ Seefried) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2010 15:33:15 -0400 Subject: 68K ISA project In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C3A1C7B.90205@seefried.com> On 7/11/2010 1:00 PM, "Andrew Lynch" > > Hi! Just out of curiosity does anyone know of any home brew ISA bus 68K > boards? > Didn't Circuit Cellar do something like this in a series of articles? KJ From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Jul 11 14:52:23 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2010 15:52:23 -0400 Subject: 68K ISA project In-Reply-To: <4C3A1C7B.90205@seefried.com> References: <4C3A1C7B.90205@seefried.com> Message-ID: <4C3A20F7.4070408@neurotica.com> On 7/11/10 3:33 PM, KJ Seefried wrote: > On 7/11/2010 1:00 PM, "Andrew Lynch" >> >> Hi! Just out of curiosity does anyone know of any home brew ISA bus 68K >> boards? >> > > Didn't Circuit Cellar do something like this in a series of articles? You're probably thinking of the Trump Card, which used a Z8000. (Z8001 in particular) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From silent700 at gmail.com Sun Jul 11 17:37:27 2010 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2010 17:37:27 -0500 Subject: Lilith cabinets In-Reply-To: <4C32B74B.7050103@ubanproductions.com> References: <4C2AE332.6090301@snarc.net> <4C32B74B.7050103@ubanproductions.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Jul 5, 2010 at 11:55 PM, Tom Uban wrote: > I'm posting this for a friend, so please contact him (info below) > if you are interested... > >> Free to good home, local pickup only (Chicago area), a set of Lilith wood cabinets. I picked these up last week. Here are some pics I took today: http://picasaweb.google.com/Silent700/ETHLilithCase# I know nothing of the Lilith save for what Wikipedia and Google told me last week, so I can't say whether these are complete, correct, modded or what. From the pics I've found there were a number of different Lilith cases, but the ones that match these most closely suggest this is one complete enclosure plus a second base and lid. The lid fits to whatever ought to below it with pegs and there are no pegs in the second base. The party I picked them up from was using them to store his kids' toys. Despite this they are in pretty good shape. He said he got them from the U of Virginia - I wonder what happened to the guts :( Not sure what I will do with them yet. It's very nice wood but I am pretty against modding something so rare. I will probably facilitate their return home to .ch -j From legalize at xmission.com Sun Jul 11 20:15:23 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2010 19:15:23 -0600 Subject: Lilith cabinets In-Reply-To: Your message of Sun, 11 Jul 2010 17:37:27 -0500. Message-ID: In article , Jason T writes: > Not sure what I will do with them yet. It's very nice wood but I am > pretty against modding something so rare. I will probably facilitate > their return home to .ch I have some Eve workstations and some spare Eve guts. Eve is the successor to Lilith. I emailed the guy about taking custody of them, but you beat me to it :-). -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From spectre at floodgap.com Sun Jul 11 20:53:41 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2010 18:53:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Mosaic-CK 2.7ck9 Message-ID: <201007120153.o6C1rf1K011004@floodgap.com> For those who follow my Mosaic-CK project, version 2.7ck9 is out, which improves the basic NCSA Mosaic rendering core with improved horizontal positioning, makes image loads asynchronous, adds a Dock icon and better integration with Mac OS X, and fixes a lot of bugs. For those who don't, it's my little playground and historical preservation of NCSA Mosaic, updated to build and run on modern operating systems, with both an alternative renderer to actually be vaguely useful as a basic browser and the classic renderer to show people just how far we've come. Binary available for Mac OS X 10.4+. Should build on just about anything with gcc 2 or better and X11R5 or higher. I'm slowly working on getting my Solbourne S3000 back in shape so I can build binaries on that too (they would likely be generically SPARC compatible, but this probably builds on SunOS already anyway). http://www.floodgap.com/retrotech/machten/mosaic/ -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- He is rising from affluence to poverty. -- Mark Twain ---------------------- From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sat Jul 10 20:33:35 2010 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2010 18:33:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: regarding Datamaster's and such In-Reply-To: <4C37E654.2060509@gmail.com> Message-ID: <340128.69450.qm@web65503.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> how's about a preliminary picture... some of the internals would be nice also. If you have an oddball, it's immoral not to share and be nice :) From rick at rickmurphy.net Sat Jul 10 21:31:18 2010 From: rick at rickmurphy.net (Rick Murphy) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2010 22:31:18 -0400 Subject: Iomega Bernoulli Box 20+20 (A220H) In-Reply-To: <4C390EC0.5090003@brutman.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20100701171352.0ba34848@localhost> <4C2D0410.1615.2C6F772@cclist.sydex.com> <4C38B206.4090806@brutman.com> <4C38833D.7009.13C42B5@cclist.sydex.com> <4C390EC0.5090003@brutman.com> Message-ID: <201007110231.o6B2VITV025648@rickmurphy.net> At 08:22 PM 7/10/2010, Michael B. Brutman wrote: >I think I have a cabling problem. I was able to hack together a >solution that allowed me to connect directly to the drive, bypassing >the DC37 connector. The drive showed up on the SCSI chain, but that's >as far as I'm going to get without media. > >So yes, I think it is SCSI. Just need to figure out the cabling >problem. The cable that I got looked like a sure bet - Centronics >style connector on one side, DC37 on the other. Rats. I really hoped that the cable would work. I did look around for the controller card that went along with it, but no luck. It was a small 8-bit ISA card with basically a simple SCSI/SASI chip and not much else. Unfortunately, I dumped most of my ISA boards a year or so ago. -Rick From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sat Jul 10 22:40:16 2010 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2010 20:40:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 68K ISA project In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <247285.4794.qm@web65514.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> what might be of help is the series that appeared in Radio Electronics over 20 years ago which described the construction of a 68k based puter that could use actual IBM cards (my guess is though they had to be pretty dumb though). Generally cards are assigned the tasks of initializing themselves, so in my mind there doesn't seem to be any necessity of using 80x86 code. But I would have to imagine a great number of cards wouldn't cooperate nevertheless. A CGA card was supposed to work though. Note though that thee actual cpu was on the main board, IIRC. From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sun Jul 11 17:39:19 2010 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2010 15:39:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 68K ISA project In-Reply-To: <4C3A20F7.4070408@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <819198.64455.qm@web65510.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> > > Didn't Circuit Cellar do something like this in a > series of articles? > > You're probably thinking of the Trump Card, which > used a Z8000. > (Z8001 in particular) BYTE/CC did feature a 68020 based accelerator or some such for the peecee. Now it only shared the bus, but sat on it nevertheless. What's the difference I ask? From jplist2008 at kiwigeek.com Mon Jul 12 08:13:40 2010 From: jplist2008 at kiwigeek.com (JP Hindin) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2010 08:13:40 -0500 (CDT) Subject: DECboard X In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 9 Jul 2010, William Donzelli wrote: > I have a couple of boards, clearly DEC, with numbers X020 and X030. > They are both hex height - pretty standard, with the cast metal > bracket holding the board ejectors. The X020 board is marked DATA PATH > and the X030 board is marked CDC DISK CONTROL. Are these for the DEC > badged CDC 97xx drives? This is correct - I have these boards in my 11/34a that was the COM head unit for a Xerox laser. I assumed "X" stood for Xerox, actually, but I've probably been wrong all this time;) My COM unit came with a CDC 9762 drive. - JP From curt at atarimuseum.com Mon Jul 12 09:51:46 2010 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2010 10:51:46 -0400 Subject: DECboard X In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C3B2C02.3040605@atarimuseum.com> Would these be capable of interfacing to the 9766 as well? JP Hindin wrote: > On Fri, 9 Jul 2010, William Donzelli wrote: > >> I have a couple of boards, clearly DEC, with numbers X020 and X030. >> They are both hex height - pretty standard, with the cast metal >> bracket holding the board ejectors. The X020 board is marked DATA PATH >> and the X030 board is marked CDC DISK CONTROL. Are these for the DEC >> badged CDC 97xx drives? >> > > This is correct - I have these boards in my 11/34a that was the COM head > unit for a Xerox laser. I assumed "X" stood for Xerox, actually, but I've > probably been wrong all this time;) > > My COM unit came with a CDC 9762 drive. > > - JP > > > From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Jul 12 14:24:03 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2010 15:24:03 -0400 Subject: 68K ISA project In-Reply-To: <819198.64455.qm@web65510.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> References: <819198.64455.qm@web65510.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4C3B6BD3.1010808@neurotica.com> On 7/11/10 6:39 PM, Chris M wrote: >>> Didn't Circuit Cellar do something like this in a >> series of articles? >> >> You're probably thinking of the Trump Card, which >> used a Z8000. >> (Z8001 in particular) > > BYTE/CC did feature a 68020 based accelerator or some such for the peecee. Now it only shared the bus, but sat on it nevertheless. What's the difference I ask? Are you sure that was in a CC column? I've read most everything he's published (in BYTE and otherwise) and I don't recall any 68K stuff at all. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From bernd at kopriva.de Mon Jul 12 14:39:16 2010 From: bernd at kopriva.de (Bernd Kopriva) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2010 21:39:16 +0200 Subject: 68K ISA project In-Reply-To: <4C3B6BD3.1010808@neurotica.com> References: <819198.64455.qm@web65510.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <4C3B6BD3.1010808@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4C3B6F64.1040509@kopriva.de> Hi, this is the "The Definicon 68020 Coprocessor", described in Byte 8+9, 1985 ... ... but it wasn't part of Circuit Cellar Ciao Bernd Dave McGuire wrote: > On 7/11/10 6:39 PM, Chris M wrote: > >>>> Didn't Circuit Cellar do something like this in a >>>> >>> series of articles? >>> >>> You're probably thinking of the Trump Card, which >>> used a Z8000. >>> (Z8001 in particular) >>> >> BYTE/CC did feature a 68020 based accelerator or some such for the peecee. Now it only shared the bus, but sat on it nevertheless. What's the difference I ask? >> > > Are you sure that was in a CC column? I've read most everything he's > published (in BYTE and otherwise) and I don't recall any 68K stuff at all. > > -Dave > > From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Jul 12 14:44:37 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2010 15:44:37 -0400 Subject: 68K ISA project In-Reply-To: <4C3B6F64.1040509@kopriva.de> References: <819198.64455.qm@web65510.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <4C3B6BD3.1010808@neurotica.com> <4C3B6F64.1040509@kopriva.de> Message-ID: On Mon, Jul 12, 2010 at 3:39 PM, Bernd Kopriva wrote: > Hi, > this is the "The Definicon 68020 Coprocessor", described in Byte 8+9, 1985 > ... > ... but it wasn't part of Circuit Cellar Hmm... I think I have those issues in a closet. I'll have to go dig them out. The M68K family is one of my favorites (in no small part due to making a living with it between 1984 and 1994). -ethan From IanK at vulcan.com Mon Jul 12 14:49:53 2010 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2010 12:49:53 -0700 Subject: 68K ISA project In-Reply-To: <4C3B6F64.1040509@kopriva.de> References: <819198.64455.qm@web65510.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <4C3B6BD3.1010808@neurotica.com> <4C3B6F64.1040509@kopriva.de> Message-ID: Here's an old InfoWorld article that describes it generally: http://books.google.com/books?id=xzAEAAAAMBAJ&lpg=RA1-PA36&ots=34A6ndyIpe&dq=Definicon%2068020&pg=RA1-PA36#v=onepage&q=Definicon%2068020&f=false > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Bernd Kopriva > Sent: Monday, July 12, 2010 12:39 PM > To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Cc: General at kopriva.de > Subject: Re: 68K ISA project > > Hi, > this is the "The Definicon 68020 Coprocessor", described in Byte 8+9, > 1985 ... > ... but it wasn't part of Circuit Cellar > > Ciao Bernd > > Dave McGuire wrote: > > On 7/11/10 6:39 PM, Chris M wrote: > > > >>>> Didn't Circuit Cellar do something like this in a > >>>> > >>> series of articles? > >>> > >>> You're probably thinking of the Trump Card, which > >>> used a Z8000. > >>> (Z8001 in particular) > >>> > >> BYTE/CC did feature a 68020 based accelerator or some such for the > peecee. Now it only shared the bus, but sat on it nevertheless. What's > the difference I ask? > >> > > > > Are you sure that was in a CC column? I've read most everything > he's > > published (in BYTE and otherwise) and I don't recall any 68K stuff at > all. > > > > -Dave > > > > From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Jul 12 15:13:06 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2010 16:13:06 -0400 Subject: 68K ISA project In-Reply-To: <4C3B6F64.1040509@kopriva.de> References: <819198.64455.qm@web65510.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <4C3B6BD3.1010808@neurotica.com> <4C3B6F64.1040509@kopriva.de> Message-ID: <4C3B7752.4070907@neurotica.com> Ahh, excellent, I shall have to look those up. I'm pretty sure I have all of 1985 here. I don't recall them being in those issues. -Dave On 7/12/10 3:39 PM, Bernd Kopriva wrote: > Hi, > this is the "The Definicon 68020 Coprocessor", described in Byte 8+9, > 1985 ... > ... but it wasn't part of Circuit Cellar > > Ciao Bernd > > Dave McGuire wrote: >> On 7/11/10 6:39 PM, Chris M wrote: >> >>>>> Didn't Circuit Cellar do something like this in a >>>>> >>>> series of articles? >>>> >>>> You're probably thinking of the Trump Card, which >>>> used a Z8000. >>>> (Z8001 in particular) >>>> >>> BYTE/CC did feature a 68020 based accelerator or some such for the >>> peecee. Now it only shared the bus, but sat on it nevertheless. >>> What's the difference I ask? >>> >> >> Are you sure that was in a CC column? I've read most everything he's >> published (in BYTE and otherwise) and I don't recall any 68K stuff at >> all. >> >> -Dave >> >> -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Jul 12 16:02:19 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2010 14:02:19 -0700 Subject: 68K ISA project In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C3B82DB.3020606@brouhaha.com> Andrew Lynch wrote: > Hi! Just out of curiosity does anyone know of any home brew ISA bus 68K > boards? > Not ISA bus, but I built a homebrew 68020/68881 board for the Apple II back in 1986. It had an EPROM with boot code, and 32K of SRAM. It used two eight-bit parallel ports in each direction to communicate with the Apple, and allowed either processor to interrupt the other. Richard Ottosen helped me build and debug it, and Loren Blaney developed a version of the XPL0 compiler to produce native code for it. I no longer have the card, though I do still have the schematic so I occasionally get tempted to build S/N 2. Originally I wanted to design an upgraded version that could DMA into the Apple memory, for higher performance graphics. Eric From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Mon Jul 12 18:02:20 2010 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2010 16:02:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 68K ISA project In-Reply-To: <4C3B82DB.3020606@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <283491.19796.qm@web65505.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> --- On Mon, 7/12/10, Eric Smith wrote: > I no longer have the card, though I do still have the > schematic please share. It's not nice when you don't share. so I occasionally get tempted not often enough apparently to build S/N > 2. Originally I wanted to design an upgraded version > that could DMA into the Apple memory, for higher performance > graphics. DMA oftentimes is simply a chip. So witch chip you wuz gonna use? Now this thing was some sort of coprocessor thing I guess, right? Could you be more specific. Details details. From tosteve at yahoo.com Mon Jul 12 18:11:43 2010 From: tosteve at yahoo.com (steven stengel) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2010 16:11:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: regarding Datamaster's and such In-Reply-To: <4C37E654.2060509@gmail.com> Message-ID: <910570.72822.qm@web110615.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Some DataMaster pics - I hope this help, or is of interest! http://members.cox.net/stengel/temp/1.jpg http://members.cox.net/stengel/temp/2.jpg http://members.cox.net/stengel/temp/3.jpg http://members.cox.net/stengel/temp/4.jpg http://members.cox.net/stengel/temp/5.jpg --- On Fri, 7/9/10, Shannon Spurling wrote: > From: Shannon Spurling > Subject: Re: regarding Datamaster's and such > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > Date: Friday, July 9, 2010, 8:17 PM > Well, I have what is labeled as an > IBM 5324. It appears to be a three piece system from the > datamaster line, with a seperate CPU tower, monitor, > keyboard, and printer. Only thing is, I can find no > information on this thing actually being made. I am trying > to verify that the power supply is actually working, but I > have no data on it. Now, I also asked about basic in ROM. > Someone said they didn't. I read they did, or at least some > of them did. I can't find anything on an operating system, > and the thing appears to have a lot of rom chips on the > board. > > These are the things I have found so far: > > IBM indicates some hardware and software options in the > datamaster line in their 1982 summary documents. Nothing > else indicates anything other than a one piece unit was > offered. Nothing else indicates a model with this number > even though this thing is tagged all over as IBM hardware > made in New York. > > From http://oldcomputers.net/ibm5322.html > > The OS is listed as built in basic, and the ram card and > CPU "module" in this system is the same as what you see in > my tower unit. You can see the floppy controller card > plugged in on the far side of the CPU card with the yellow > interface cable wires. In fact, I just need to know the > nominal voltages that should be found on that red power > connector. I have a feeling that I am missing some +5 and > +12 power feeds, but I need to know what I am looking at. I > measured using chassis ground and only got voltages on a > couple of pins, and they all appeared to be negative. I > think I am going to have to open the power supply, but those > large caps always make me nervous. > This is the same board, way different format, and all > genuine IBM. I have that same green monitor in a separate > unit with two cables that connect back to the tower. It has > two legs that go up in the monitor cabinet that the thing > can lift and drop on, and tilt. > > It has been in "storage" for a while, so I rather clean it > up before I take any pictures of it. Maybe I'll get a chance > to do that next week. If I need any software or 8" floppies > where can I find those? And is there any refrence manuals? > You would think someone could find this stuff online > someplace. > > Thanks > > Shannon > > > On 7/7/2010 1:21 AM, steven stengel wrote: > > I have a Datamaster, but I missed the conversation. > > Is there something I can help with? > > Mine is buried only one-deep. > > > > > > > > --- On Tue, 7/6/10, Chris M? > wrote: > > > >> From: Chris M > >> Subject: regarding Datamaster's and such > >> To: "talk" > >> Date: Tuesday, July 6, 2010, 3:55 PM > >> a picture (or 2) might help Sharon > >> :) > >> > >> IIRC, the *8085* in the System 23/Datamaster > wasn't > >> identified as such. It had some sort of IBM house > number. > >> Haven't opened mine in a while, but that's what I > remember. > >> > >> Be specific about what you mean by p/s issues. And > if > >> that's the case, you're advised to test the > voltages under > >> load...but not the motherboard load/s. > >> > >> Perhaps you have a repackaged Datamaster. Mine > >> unfortunately is *unavailable* for perusal at this > present > >> time. I do believe there are other people on the > list that > >> have one, but they don't seem to participate these > days. > >> Mine is buried beneath about 12 other machines > (was I > >> supposed to put it on top? It weighs ~95 lbs yer > know). > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > From tosteve at yahoo.com Mon Jul 12 18:11:45 2010 From: tosteve at yahoo.com (steven stengel) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2010 16:11:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: regarding Datamaster's and such In-Reply-To: <4C37E654.2060509@gmail.com> Message-ID: <874869.55646.qm@web110612.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Some DataMaster pics - I hope this help, or is of interest! http://members.cox.net/stengel/temp/1.jpg http://members.cox.net/stengel/temp/2.jpg http://members.cox.net/stengel/temp/3.jpg http://members.cox.net/stengel/temp/4.jpg http://members.cox.net/stengel/temp/5.jpg --- On Fri, 7/9/10, Shannon Spurling wrote: > From: Shannon Spurling > Subject: Re: regarding Datamaster's and such > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > Date: Friday, July 9, 2010, 8:17 PM > Well, I have what is labeled as an > IBM 5324. It appears to be a three piece system from the > datamaster line, with a seperate CPU tower, monitor, > keyboard, and printer. Only thing is, I can find no > information on this thing actually being made. I am trying > to verify that the power supply is actually working, but I > have no data on it. Now, I also asked about basic in ROM. > Someone said they didn't. I read they did, or at least some > of them did. I can't find anything on an operating system, > and the thing appears to have a lot of rom chips on the > board. > > These are the things I have found so far: > > IBM indicates some hardware and software options in the > datamaster line in their 1982 summary documents. Nothing > else indicates anything other than a one piece unit was > offered. Nothing else indicates a model with this number > even though this thing is tagged all over as IBM hardware > made in New York. > > From http://oldcomputers.net/ibm5322.html > > The OS is listed as built in basic, and the ram card and > CPU "module" in this system is the same as what you see in > my tower unit. You can see the floppy controller card > plugged in on the far side of the CPU card with the yellow > interface cable wires. In fact, I just need to know the > nominal voltages that should be found on that red power > connector. I have a feeling that I am missing some +5 and > +12 power feeds, but I need to know what I am looking at. I > measured using chassis ground and only got voltages on a > couple of pins, and they all appeared to be negative. I > think I am going to have to open the power supply, but those > large caps always make me nervous. > This is the same board, way different format, and all > genuine IBM. I have that same green monitor in a separate > unit with two cables that connect back to the tower. It has > two legs that go up in the monitor cabinet that the thing > can lift and drop on, and tilt. > > It has been in "storage" for a while, so I rather clean it > up before I take any pictures of it. Maybe I'll get a chance > to do that next week. If I need any software or 8" floppies > where can I find those? And is there any refrence manuals? > You would think someone could find this stuff online > someplace. > > Thanks > > Shannon > > > On 7/7/2010 1:21 AM, steven stengel wrote: > > I have a Datamaster, but I missed the conversation. > > Is there something I can help with? > > Mine is buried only one-deep. > > > > > > > > --- On Tue, 7/6/10, Chris M? > wrote: > > > >> From: Chris M > >> Subject: regarding Datamaster's and such > >> To: "talk" > >> Date: Tuesday, July 6, 2010, 3:55 PM > >> a picture (or 2) might help Sharon > >> :) > >> > >> IIRC, the *8085* in the System 23/Datamaster > wasn't > >> identified as such. It had some sort of IBM house > number. > >> Haven't opened mine in a while, but that's what I > remember. > >> > >> Be specific about what you mean by p/s issues. And > if > >> that's the case, you're advised to test the > voltages under > >> load...but not the motherboard load/s. > >> > >> Perhaps you have a repackaged Datamaster. Mine > >> unfortunately is *unavailable* for perusal at this > present > >> time. I do believe there are other people on the > list that > >> have one, but they don't seem to participate these > days. > >> Mine is buried beneath about 12 other machines > (was I > >> supposed to put it on top? It weighs ~95 lbs yer > know). > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > From tosteve at yahoo.com Mon Jul 12 18:11:44 2010 From: tosteve at yahoo.com (steven stengel) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2010 16:11:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: regarding Datamaster's and such In-Reply-To: <4C37E654.2060509@gmail.com> Message-ID: <665319.79404.qm@web110608.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Some DataMaster pics - I hope this help, or is of interest! http://members.cox.net/stengel/temp/1.jpg http://members.cox.net/stengel/temp/2.jpg http://members.cox.net/stengel/temp/3.jpg http://members.cox.net/stengel/temp/4.jpg http://members.cox.net/stengel/temp/5.jpg --- On Fri, 7/9/10, Shannon Spurling wrote: > From: Shannon Spurling > Subject: Re: regarding Datamaster's and such > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > Date: Friday, July 9, 2010, 8:17 PM > Well, I have what is labeled as an > IBM 5324. It appears to be a three piece system from the > datamaster line, with a seperate CPU tower, monitor, > keyboard, and printer. Only thing is, I can find no > information on this thing actually being made. I am trying > to verify that the power supply is actually working, but I > have no data on it. Now, I also asked about basic in ROM. > Someone said they didn't. I read they did, or at least some > of them did. I can't find anything on an operating system, > and the thing appears to have a lot of rom chips on the > board. > > These are the things I have found so far: > > IBM indicates some hardware and software options in the > datamaster line in their 1982 summary documents. Nothing > else indicates anything other than a one piece unit was > offered. Nothing else indicates a model with this number > even though this thing is tagged all over as IBM hardware > made in New York. > > From http://oldcomputers.net/ibm5322.html > > The OS is listed as built in basic, and the ram card and > CPU "module" in this system is the same as what you see in > my tower unit. You can see the floppy controller card > plugged in on the far side of the CPU card with the yellow > interface cable wires. In fact, I just need to know the > nominal voltages that should be found on that red power > connector. I have a feeling that I am missing some +5 and > +12 power feeds, but I need to know what I am looking at. I > measured using chassis ground and only got voltages on a > couple of pins, and they all appeared to be negative. I > think I am going to have to open the power supply, but those > large caps always make me nervous. > This is the same board, way different format, and all > genuine IBM. I have that same green monitor in a separate > unit with two cables that connect back to the tower. It has > two legs that go up in the monitor cabinet that the thing > can lift and drop on, and tilt. > > It has been in "storage" for a while, so I rather clean it > up before I take any pictures of it. Maybe I'll get a chance > to do that next week. If I need any software or 8" floppies > where can I find those? And is there any refrence manuals? > You would think someone could find this stuff online > someplace. > > Thanks > > Shannon > > > On 7/7/2010 1:21 AM, steven stengel wrote: > > I have a Datamaster, but I missed the conversation. > > Is there something I can help with? > > Mine is buried only one-deep. > > > > > > > > --- On Tue, 7/6/10, Chris M? > wrote: > > > >> From: Chris M > >> Subject: regarding Datamaster's and such > >> To: "talk" > >> Date: Tuesday, July 6, 2010, 3:55 PM > >> a picture (or 2) might help Sharon > >> :) > >> > >> IIRC, the *8085* in the System 23/Datamaster > wasn't > >> identified as such. It had some sort of IBM house > number. > >> Haven't opened mine in a while, but that's what I > remember. > >> > >> Be specific about what you mean by p/s issues. And > if > >> that's the case, you're advised to test the > voltages under > >> load...but not the motherboard load/s. > >> > >> Perhaps you have a repackaged Datamaster. Mine > >> unfortunately is *unavailable* for perusal at this > present > >> time. I do believe there are other people on the > list that > >> have one, but they don't seem to participate these > days. > >> Mine is buried beneath about 12 other machines > (was I > >> supposed to put it on top? It weighs ~95 lbs yer > know). > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > From rich.cini at verizon.net Mon Jul 12 18:23:32 2010 From: rich.cini at verizon.net (Richard Cini) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2010 19:23:32 -0400 Subject: 68K ISA project In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I pulled them out and looked. 8/1985 (vol 10, iss. 8) contains the following: * Build the BASIC-52 * The DSI-32 coprocessor board (National 32032 processor) * An introductory article on the Amiga. The 9/1985 issue (vol 10, iss. 9) contains the following: * Build the HD64180 Z80 system * DSI-32 part 2 * EGO home-built CPU Now, having said that, I have a small database of articles that I keep, so I looked for 68k SBC-like articles. There were two articles that discussed the chip itself, one that discussed the MECB Educational Board, one for the VU68k SBC (Jan 1984), and a 68k processor comparison discussion. So, I pulled the VU68k issue and indeed it is a 68k SBC built on a Vector S100 card and uses only 15 chips. It doesn't appear that it uses the S100 buss for anything other than power. It also has a monitor program which looks pretty good from the command summary but alas, no code. I'm going to be traveling for a week or so but when I come back I can scan it if people are interested. Rich On 7/12/10 3:44 PM, "Ethan Dicks" wrote: > On Mon, Jul 12, 2010 at 3:39 PM, Bernd Kopriva wrote: >> Hi, >> this is the "The Definicon 68020 Coprocessor", described in Byte 8+9, 1985 >> ... >> ... but it wasn't part of Circuit Cellar > > Hmm... I think I have those issues in a closet. I'll have to go dig > them out. The M68K family is one of my favorites (in no small part > due to making a living with it between 1984 and 1994). > > -ethan Rich -- Rich Cini Collector of Classic Computers Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator http://www.altair32.com http://www.classiccmp.org/cini From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Jul 12 19:41:53 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2010 17:41:53 -0700 Subject: 68K ISA project In-Reply-To: <283491.19796.qm@web65505.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> References: <283491.19796.qm@web65505.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4C3BB651.8080003@brouhaha.com> Chris M wrote: > please share. It's not nice when you don't share. The schematic has been online for ten years: http://www.brouhaha.com/~eric/retrocomputing/apple/apple2/68020/ If anyone were to actually build one, I could probably dig up the PAL equations. >> so I occasionally get tempted to build S/N 2. > not often enough apparently Plenty often enough, but my TODO list is *extremely* long, and nearly everything else is more urgent. >> Originally I wanted to design an upgraded version that could >> DMA into the Apple memory, for higher performance graphics. > DMA oftentimes is simply a chip. So witch chip you wuz gonna use? There isn't any off-the-shelf chip that can adapt a 68K to act as a bus master on an Apple II in any sensible manner. I would have had to design my own logic for that. > Now this thing was some sort of coprocessor thing I guess, right? Yes. > Could you be more specific. Details details. There aren't really any more details to be had. Sorry. It was just a one-off hack. Eric From bernd at kopriva.de Mon Jul 12 22:42:41 2010 From: bernd at kopriva.de (Bernd Kopriva) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2010 05:42:41 +0200 Subject: 68K ISA project In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C3BE0B1.5060406@kopriva.de> Hi, sorry, my fault: i have just looked up the first reference in Google, instead of rechecking ... ... it should be described in Byte, 7+8, 1986 Ciao Bernd Richard Cini wrote: > I pulled them out and looked. 8/1985 (vol 10, iss. 8) contains the > following: > > * Build the BASIC-52 > * The DSI-32 coprocessor board (National 32032 processor) > * An introductory article on the Amiga. > > The 9/1985 issue (vol 10, iss. 9) contains the following: > > * Build the HD64180 Z80 system > * DSI-32 part 2 > * EGO home-built CPU > > Now, having said that, I have a small database of articles that I keep, so I > looked for 68k SBC-like articles. There were two articles that discussed the > chip itself, one that discussed the MECB Educational Board, one for the > VU68k SBC (Jan 1984), and a 68k processor comparison discussion. > > So, I pulled the VU68k issue and indeed it is a 68k SBC built on a Vector > S100 card and uses only 15 chips. It doesn't appear that it uses the S100 > buss for anything other than power. It also has a monitor program which > looks pretty good from the command summary but alas, no code. > > I'm going to be traveling for a week or so but when I come back I can scan > it if people are interested. > > Rich > > > > On 7/12/10 3:44 PM, "Ethan Dicks" wrote: > > >> On Mon, Jul 12, 2010 at 3:39 PM, Bernd Kopriva wrote: >> >>> Hi, >>> this is the "The Definicon 68020 Coprocessor", described in Byte 8+9, 1985 >>> ... >>> ... but it wasn't part of Circuit Cellar >>> >> Hmm... I think I have those issues in a closet. I'll have to go dig >> them out. The M68K family is one of my favorites (in no small part >> due to making a living with it between 1984 and 1994). >> >> -ethan >> > > Rich > > -- > Rich Cini > Collector of Classic Computers > Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator > http://www.altair32.com > http://www.classiccmp.org/cini > > > > > > From drb at msu.edu Tue Jul 13 00:11:38 2010 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2010 01:11:38 -0400 Subject: regarding Datamaster's and such In-Reply-To: (Your message of Fri, 09 Jul 2010 22:17:40 CDT.) <4C37E654.2060509@gmail.com> References: <4C37E654.2060509@gmail.com> <32158.30257.qm@web110603.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20100713051139.022775AA001@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Shannon, There were at least two computer models: 5322 (all-in-one) and 5324 (screen plus deskside), three printer models: 5217, 5241 and 5242, an external dual 8" diskette unit (5246), and a networked floorstanding fixed disk unit (5247). IIRC, the 5324 computer and the 5247 disk unit looked pretty similar except that the computer has floppy drives. The disk unit was available in at least two variants - 15MB and 30MB. My first draft of this message suggested that you try using the search term "system/23", but I tried it, and it doesn't help. :( I'm guessing the narrow market segment and relatively short life span, plus IBM's copyrights and such, are the cause. De From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Mon Jul 12 18:11:33 2010 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2010 16:11:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 68K ISA project In-Reply-To: <4C3B7752.4070907@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <392492.32548.qm@web65502.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> --- On Mon, 7/12/10, Dave McGuire wrote: > Ahh, excellent, I shall have to look those up. > I'm pretty sure I have > all of 1985 here. I don't recall them being in those > issues. It must have been a l'il smoker. Not easy finding a 68020 though. I think I have a Mac II mobo that's been snapped in half LOL. And it uses a hideous MMU. Doubt that board used anything close. From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Jul 13 01:31:21 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2010 02:31:21 -0400 Subject: 68K ISA project In-Reply-To: <392492.32548.qm@web65502.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> References: <392492.32548.qm@web65502.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4C3C0839.60604@neurotica.com> On 7/12/10 7:11 PM, Chris M wrote: >> Ahh, excellent, I shall have to look those up. >> I'm pretty sure I have >> all of 1985 here. I don't recall them being in those >> issues. > > It must have been a l'il smoker. Not easy finding a 68020 though. I think I have a Mac II mobo that's been snapped in half LOL. And it uses a hideous MMU. Doubt that board used anything close. Urr? 68020s are all over the place. WTF? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Jul 13 02:30:35 2010 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2010 01:30:35 -0600 Subject: 68K ISA project In-Reply-To: <392492.32548.qm@web65502.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> References: <392492.32548.qm@web65502.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4C3C161B.9080009@jetnet.ab.ca> Chris M wrote: > > > --- On Mon, 7/12/10, Dave McGuire wrote: > >> Ahh, excellent, I shall have to look those up. I'm pretty sure I >> have all of 1985 here. I don't recall them being in those issues. > > It must have been a l'il smoker. Not easy finding a 68020 though. > > I think I have a Mac II mobo that's been snapped in half LOL. And it > uses a hideous MMU. Doubt that board used anything close. > The MMU bit reminded about DACK GROUNDED. I think that was the news letter I saw on the web. Guess what ! All about hooking a 68000 to a apple II for numeric processing. The news letter may be easier to find than a 68020. Ben. From rich.cini at verizon.net Tue Jul 13 07:48:31 2010 From: rich.cini at verizon.net (Richard Cini) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2010 08:48:31 -0400 Subject: 68K ISA project In-Reply-To: <4C3BE0B1.5060406@kopriva.de> Message-ID: Found them...Definicon 68020. It's a 16-bit long ISA card with a 68020 CPU, 68881 FPU, 68851 MMU, an SCN2681 DUAR/T and a *lot* of glue. >From one of the call-out boxes in the articles, it looks like a pro-grade type of card. Basic hardware is $995 plus $99 for a serial port upgrade kit. Software listed includes Assembler, BASIC, C and Pascal (based on both SVS and LLL), and Fortran. Prices range from $169 to $459. When I have a chance, I'll scan the articles. Rich On 7/12/10 11:42 PM, "Bernd Kopriva" wrote: > Hi, > sorry, my fault: i have just looked up the first reference in Google, > instead of rechecking ... > ... it should be described in Byte, 7+8, 1986 > > Ciao Bernd > > Richard Cini wrote: >> I pulled them out and looked. 8/1985 (vol 10, iss. 8) contains the >> following: >> >> * Build the BASIC-52 >> * The DSI-32 coprocessor board (National 32032 processor) >> * An introductory article on the Amiga. >> >> The 9/1985 issue (vol 10, iss. 9) contains the following: >> >> * Build the HD64180 Z80 system >> * DSI-32 part 2 >> * EGO home-built CPU >> >> Now, having said that, I have a small database of articles that I keep, so I >> looked for 68k SBC-like articles. There were two articles that discussed the >> chip itself, one that discussed the MECB Educational Board, one for the >> VU68k SBC (Jan 1984), and a 68k processor comparison discussion. >> >> So, I pulled the VU68k issue and indeed it is a 68k SBC built on a Vector >> S100 card and uses only 15 chips. It doesn't appear that it uses the S100 >> buss for anything other than power. It also has a monitor program which >> looks pretty good from the command summary but alas, no code. >> >> I'm going to be traveling for a week or so but when I come back I can scan >> it if people are interested. >> >> Rich >> >> >> >> On 7/12/10 3:44 PM, "Ethan Dicks" wrote: >> >> >>> On Mon, Jul 12, 2010 at 3:39 PM, Bernd Kopriva wrote: >>> >>>> Hi, >>>> this is the "The Definicon 68020 Coprocessor", described in Byte 8+9, 1985 >>>> ... >>>> ... but it wasn't part of Circuit Cellar >>>> >>> Hmm... I think I have those issues in a closet. I'll have to go dig >>> them out. The M68K family is one of my favorites (in no small part >>> due to making a living with it between 1984 and 1994). >>> >>> -ethan >>> >> >> Rich >> >> -- >> Rich Cini >> Collector of Classic Computers >> Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator >> http://www.altair32.com >> http://www.classiccmp.org/cini >> >> >> >> >> >> Rich -- Rich Cini Collector of Classic Computers Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator http://www.altair32.com http://www.classiccmp.org/cini From chrise at pobox.com Tue Jul 13 06:00:52 2010 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2010 06:00:52 -0500 Subject: 68K ISA project In-Reply-To: <4C3C161B.9080009@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <392492.32548.qm@web65502.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <4C3C161B.9080009@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <20100713110052.GI2698@n0jcf.net> On Tuesday (07/13/2010 at 01:30AM -0600), Ben wrote: > The MMU bit reminded about DACK GROUNDED. I think that was the news > letter I saw on the web. Guess what ! All about hooking a 68000 to > a apple II for numeric processing. > The news letter may be easier to find than a 68020. > Ben. I think it was called "DTACK GROUNDED". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DTACK_Grounded -- Chris Elmquist From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Jul 13 08:56:11 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2010 09:56:11 -0400 Subject: 68K ISA project In-Reply-To: <4C3C161B.9080009@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <392492.32548.qm@web65502.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <4C3C161B.9080009@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Tue, Jul 13, 2010 at 3:30 AM, Ben wrote: > The MMU bit reminded about DACK GROUNDED. I think that was the news letter I > saw on the web. Close - DTACK Grounded. DTACK is DaTa ACknowledge, a signal pin that allows for async memory operations... different memory mapped I/O chips or RAM or ROM, etc., can each have different access times, and when their subsystem "knows" that data contents are valid, that subsystem grounds DTACK to tell the processor to continue with the memory cycle (this is in contrast to 1970s 8-bit microprocessors which had fixed-length memory cycles, so you had to have memory and I/O pretty much all the same speed or resort to stall cycles. The trick about grounding DTACK is that when the right phase of a machine cycle comes up, it sees DTACK (/DTACK, really) asserted and keeps on going - as long as your memory and I/O are fast enough, the machine runs at full speed with a non-complex memory control circuit (ISTR the COMBOARD design (c. 1982) uses two bi-polar PALs and maybe one or two TTL parts as well to generate /DTACK at the "right" time, earlier for DRAM, later for EPROM, etc). The author of DTACK Grounded was rather fanatical about the issue (you don't have to read very much to pick up his opinions). >?Guess what ! All about hooking a 68000 to a apple II for numeric processing. > The news letter may be easier to find than a 68020. If you mean paper copies vs a real chip, maybe not, but for PDFs, the second google hit reveals all... http://www.easy68k.com/paulrsm/dg/dg.htm In my own pile of parts, I have tubes of real Synertek and Motorola-sourced 68000L8 chips, tubes of 68000P8s, and a smattering of oddballs like 68000L12s, 68000Z8s, and maybe a 68000FN or two, but no loose 68020s. OTOH, I do have two ancient Mac 68020 boards that I bought long, long ago (back when one might care to stuff an accelerator into a machine vs buying a faster machine) but never got working. ISTR they are stuffed with MC68020RC16s or something close. I never did much with the '020 in the Amiga world; I jumped right from the straight 68000 (with the occasional 68010 "upgrade") to the 68030 (A1000 -> A3000) At one point, a 68000 motherboard with ISA slots would have fascinated me, but then I started making GG2 Bus+ cards, so any Amiga I run into that has slots (A2000, A3000, A4000...) can have ISA cards. Ultimately, I did very little with ISA parallel ports, a bit with ISA serial cards, enhanced an IDE driver for 1995-era drives, and did a lot with network interfaces. I always wanted to fiddle with unusual cards, but the lack of DMA on the GG2 Bus+ curtailed some options. Something that would still fascinate me is something I saw once - a 68000 CPU (not peripheral card - I have those) for Qbus. More so now than 20 years ago it'd be a curiosity, but that's the sort of machine I'd want to try to bring up from bare metal (but it'd be better with an on-board SCSI controller since real Qbus SCSI controllers are desired by many, including myself, for MicroVAXen). -ethan From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Tue Jul 13 13:41:53 2010 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2010 20:41:53 +0200 Subject: 68K ISA project In-Reply-To: <392492.32548.qm@web65502.mail.ac4.yahoo.com><4C3C161B.9080009@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <392492.32548.qm@web65502.mail.ac4.yahoo.com><4C3C161B.9080009@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: From: "Ethan Dicks" Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 2010 3:56 PM To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: 68K ISA project > On Tue, Jul 13, 2010 at 3:30 AM, Ben wrote: >> The MMU bit reminded about DACK GROUNDED. I think that was the news >> letter I >> saw on the web. > > Close - DTACK Grounded. DTACK is DaTa ACknowledge, > [...snip...] > If you mean paper copies vs a real chip, maybe not, but for PDFs, the > second google hit reveals all... > > http://www.easy68k.com/paulrsm/dg/dg.htm Cool !! Never heard of DTACK Grounded before, but I quickly read the first issue. Seems fun to read the others ... Probably known in this group, I am a fan of Motorola, not Intel. I learned assembler as first language on an M6800, build my own 6800, 6802, 6809 and finally designed and built a 68000 (which I upgraded later to 68010). In the end I am using a VME board with a 68020 at 30 MHz and RAM at 0 (!) "wait states" in my StarShip. Anyway ... More than 2 years ago, I started rewriting the 6809-based pdp8/e code to 68000. I "envisioned" a pdp8/e on a 68000 board with 8 fields RAM, two serial lines and simulated RX01 (using 3.5" floppy disk drives). I have actually translated the 6809 code to 68000 (making optimal use of all registers of course), but never tested it. I am sure it has bugs :-) I never returned to it due to the FPGA rush and the thought that the 68k code would be slower than a real pdp8/e. I am sure I have a 12 MHz 68k chip, and for some reason I also think to have a 16 MHz version, but I doubt Motorola ever made a 68k at 16 MHz ... Motoral chips have quite some margin in overclocking (I read somewhere). Would there be interest to run a (slow) pdp8/e on a 68k? I coded ASCII "art" for the lights display on a VT220 using ESC sequences. - Henk, PA8PDP From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Jul 13 14:00:57 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2010 15:00:57 -0400 Subject: 68K ISA project In-Reply-To: References: <392492.32548.qm@web65502.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <4C3C161B.9080009@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Tue, Jul 13, 2010 at 2:41 PM, Henk Gooijen wrote: > From: "Ethan Dicks" > Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 2010 3:56 PM >> [...snip...] >> If you mean paper copies vs a real chip, maybe not, but for PDFs, the >> second google hit reveals all... Sorry... HTML, not PDFs, but still easy to read. >> http://www.easy68k.com/paulrsm/dg/dg.htm > > Cool !! ?Never heard of DTACK Grounded before, but I quickly read the > first issue. Seems fun to read the others ... I've read most of them through that archive. I might even have one or two in a folder of ancient docs, but I doubt it's one of the last 4 issues (the ones that _aren't_ available to read). > Probably known in this group, I am a fan of Motorola, not Intel.... Quite. I learned assembler as first language on > More than 2 years ago, I started rewriting the 6809-based pdp8/e code > to 68000... I have actually translated the 6809 code to 68000... > ... I am sure I have a 12 MHz > 68k chip, and for some reason I also think to have a 16 MHz version, but > I doubt Motorola ever made a 68k at 16 MHz ... I don't recall seeing anything in a DIP package badged faster than 12.5MHz, but perhaps one of the newer dies (68EC000?) might go faster and still be bus and register-compatible with the original? > Would there be interest to run a (slow) pdp8/e on a 68k? ?I coded ASCII > "art" for the lights display on a VT220 using ESC sequences. I'm sure there'd be some interest but based on my experience, you should probably set performance expectations around a nominal 8MHz CPU (since they are so much more common than the faster varieties). If you make a "DTACK Grounded" 68000 SBC design, modern SRAM and EPROM are plenty fast enough to keep up and it _would_ keep the design simple (two 8-bit-wide ROMs, two 8-bit-wide SRAMs, whatever I/O, which might be your only bottleneck, depending on what serial chip you might pick - we had to do software throttling on our old 4MHz Z8530 serial design - lots of careful coding and uncareful sprinkling of NOPs to dodge back-to-back reads and writes of the SIO). It really needn't be much more complex than a 6809 design with a 16-bit bus. Something that might be an interesting alternative to a VT220 might be an HD44780-type textual LCD, especially a wide format panel like 2x40 (or the less common but impressive 4x40). OTOH, depending on your ASCII art, it wouldn't be difficult to rig up an AVR microcontroller to interpret your selected terminal codes and drive the LCD panel as an option. I'm always interested in discussing 68000 designs real and imagined. I first ran across a preliminary spec sheet back when I was using a PET every week and five years later was using them every day at work. Cheers, -ethan From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Tue Jul 13 14:09:31 2010 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2010 21:09:31 +0200 Subject: 68K ISA project In-Reply-To: References: <392492.32548.qm@web65502.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <4C3C161B.9080009@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <20100713210931.6acaf443.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Tue, 13 Jul 2010 09:56:11 -0400 Ethan Dicks wrote: > Something that would still fascinate me is something I saw once - a > 68000 CPU (not peripheral card - I have those) for Qbus. Maybe a CPU card from a PCS Cadmus workstation. PCS is a german company that produced CAD workstations in the 80'is and early 90'is. Some models where QBus based. OS was MUNIX, a PCS variant of UNIX with networking. -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From ragooman at comcast.net Tue Jul 13 14:33:45 2010 From: ragooman at comcast.net (Dan Roganti) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2010 15:33:45 -0400 Subject: 68K ISA project In-Reply-To: References: <392492.32548.qm@web65502.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <4C3C161B.9080009@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4C3CBF99.2060203@comcast.net> Ethan Dicks wrote: > I'm always interested in discussing 68000 designs real and imagined. > I first ran across a preliminary spec sheet back when I was using a > PET every week and five years later was using them every day at work. > > if you want a quick 'n simple way to get into 68K programming. You can always hack a cheap 68K sound board from the Bally Spy Hunter Arcade game -- there might be other compatible games I don't recall at the moment. This is small board with enough Rom/Ram to experiment 'n hack extra hardware to it, plus you can make your own sounds :) Here's a pic http://tinyurl.com/2elga5u Then there's the bigger arcade boards with 68K cpu and plenty of graphics hardware--'n Roms-- on there from Atari, such as the Indiana Jones, Marble Madness, Food Fight, etc --some even have the 68010. =Dan http://www.vintagecomputer.net/ragooman/ From trag at io.com Tue Jul 13 14:53:19 2010 From: trag at io.com (Jeff Walther) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2010 14:53:19 -0500 (CDT) Subject: 68K ISA project In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <371f97a360786110b1a7cf052314817e.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com> > Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2010 01:30:35 -0600 > From: Ben > The MMU bit reminded about DACK GROUNDED. I think that was the news > letter I saw on the web. Guess what ! All about hooking a 68000 to > a apple II for numeric processing. > The news letter may be easier to find than a 68020. The Mac LC used a 68020. I'm not sure whether it was socketed or soldered though. The LC was more or less free not too many years ago. I'm not sure what availability is like now. Really, it's a kindness to take the 68020 out of an LC. The LC only had a 16 bit wide data bus. Just senseless. Jeff Walther From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Jul 13 15:42:38 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2010 13:42:38 -0700 Subject: 68K ISA project In-Reply-To: <371f97a360786110b1a7cf052314817e.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com> References: <371f97a360786110b1a7cf052314817e.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com> Message-ID: <4C3CCFBE.8060707@brouhaha.com> Jeff Walther wrote: > Really, it's a kindness to take the 68020 out of an LC. The LC only had > a 16 bit wide data bus. Just senseless. > It was perfectly sensible. Using a 16-bit wide bus reduced the manufacturing cost, allowing the machine to be priced less than the Mac II family machines, including the Mac IIsi. Same reason the original IBM PC had an 8088 rather than an 8086. If you wanted a machine with a 32-bit bus, Apple offered plenty of models that had it. They were more expensive. Eventually costs came down enough that in the LC III a 32-bit bus was used. I worked for Apple at the time, and knew and had discussions with some of the people involved. They were doing everything they could to keep the cost of the LC down. There was even talk of using some interesting tricks to compress the ROM contents in order to use the next smaller size of ROM chips, but I don't know whether that was actually done. Eric From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jul 13 16:00:29 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2010 22:00:29 +0100 (BST) Subject: 68K ISA project In-Reply-To: from "Ethan Dicks" at Jul 13, 10 09:56:11 am Message-ID: > Close - DTACK Grounded. DTACK is DaTa ACknowledge, a signal pin that I learnt it as 'Data Trander ACKnowledge'. A similar signal to SSYN on the Unibus ;-) -tony From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Jul 13 16:05:10 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2010 17:05:10 -0400 Subject: 68K ISA project In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Jul 13, 2010 at 5:00 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> Close - DTACK Grounded. ?DTACK is DaTa ACknowledge, a signal pin that > > I learnt it as 'Data Trander ACKnowledge'. A similar signal to SSYN on > the Unibus ;-) Oops... serves me for relying on ancient neurons instead of looking it up in the handbook - yes... Data Transfer ACKnowledge. -ethan From tsw-cc at johana.com Tue Jul 13 19:36:35 2010 From: tsw-cc at johana.com (Tom Watson) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2010 17:36:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 68K ISA project Message-ID: <713411.1737.qm@web112416.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> I believe that the project you are interested in is the one done by Ingo Cyliax at Indiana University. He developed (for a class I believe) an ISA form factor board that had a MC68030. At one time I had all the artwork & schematics (I may still??). A search brought up a couple of references, but the page at Indiana University seems to have been taken down. It was a pretty good system, including interfaces for keyboards and mice (I believe). It DID have ISA slots, and the ROM software worked against a standard IDE/Serial/Parallel board set, booting the disk. The memory was fixed at 4 megs (I may be wrong at this), and used the synchronous interface of the MC68030. The ISA portion used the async interface for the ISA timing, and an interrupt multiplexer multi interface chip (MC68901??) to handle the keyboard I/O. The web site also included a frame buffer that used an alternate interface that was provided for. I believe that there was an edition of Minix that ran on it as well. I suspect that with a little work 68k Linux ought to work, as the MC68030 has an MMU. Maybe someone can use this information to access the Wayback machine and get a proper pointer. Hope this helps. From rich.cini at verizon.net Tue Jul 13 20:31:08 2010 From: rich.cini at verizon.net (Richard Cini) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2010 21:31:08 -0400 Subject: 68K ISA project In-Reply-To: <713411.1737.qm@web112416.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I know that I have the board support archive somewhere (schematics in PS, format) but I have to locate it. There's also a 68k board from James Antonakos, Peter Stark, Theo Markettos and one from "Scotty". I'm not able to retrieve these from my home network at this point but when I get back home, I'll create a little 68k page on my Web site and let y'all know about it. Rich On 7/13/10 8:36 PM, "Tom Watson" wrote: > I believe that the project you are interested in is the one done by Ingo > Cyliax at Indiana University. He developed (for a class I believe) an ISA > form factor board that had a MC68030. At one time I had all the artwork & > schematics (I may still??). A search brought up a couple of references, but > the page at Indiana University seems to have been taken down. It was a pretty > good system, including interfaces for keyboards and mice (I believe). It DID > have ISA slots, and the ROM software worked against a standard > IDE/Serial/Parallel board set, booting the disk. The memory was fixed at 4 > megs (I may be wrong at this), and used the synchronous interface of the > MC68030. The ISA portion used the async interface for the ISA timing, and an > interrupt multiplexer multi interface chip (MC68901??) to handle the keyboard > I/O. > > The web site also included a frame buffer that used an alternate interface > that was provided for. I believe that there was an edition of Minix that ran > on it as well. I suspect that with a little work 68k Linux ought to work, as > the MC68030 has an MMU. > > Maybe someone can use this information to access the Wayback machine and get a > proper pointer. > > Hope this helps. > > > Rich -- Rich Cini Collector of Classic Computers Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator http://www.altair32.com http://www.classiccmp.org/cini From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Tue Jul 13 21:45:51 2010 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2010 22:45:51 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Wanted: HP boards In-Reply-To: <4C24EBC0.5070508@gmail.com> References: <20100623091737.7f0c7021.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <4C224DE8.7000109@neurotica.com> <178A8B709B8744A98D44F39912045EF0@dell8300> <4C225181.2090002@neurotica.com> <4C22533F.1040902@neurotica.com> <4C24EBC0.5070508@gmail.com> Message-ID: I'm looking for some boards to populate a HP 2109E: 12966A BACI (Buffered Asynchronous Communications Interface) 12351D Terminal Interface Any memory boards which will work with a 2102B Memory Controller And, if anyone has a 7970E 9-track and a 13183A controller taking up valuable space, I might be interested. Email me privately if you have any spare boards, and your asking price. Thanks! Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jul 14 00:25:44 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2010 22:25:44 -0700 Subject: 68K ISA project In-Reply-To: References: <713411.1737.qm@web112416.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>, Message-ID: <4C3CE7E8.13688.2E5D5AB@cclist.sydex.com> Were there any ISA boards released with the Motorola 88000-series CPU on them? --Chuck From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 13 18:09:58 2010 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2010 16:09:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 68K ISA project In-Reply-To: <4C3C0839.60604@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <730651.41751.qm@web65512.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> is that a fact? Please tell me where --- On Tue, 7/13/10, Dave McGuire wrote: > Urr? 68020s are all over the place. From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 13 18:17:04 2010 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2010 16:17:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 68K ISA project In-Reply-To: <4C3CBF99.2060203@comcast.net> Message-ID: <652865.65082.qm@web65515.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> arcade boards aren't that cheap anymore. How's about a Genesis. As common as teeth. --- On Tue, 7/13/10, Dan Roganti wrote: > if you want a quick 'n simple way to get into 68K > programming. You can always hack a cheap 68K sound board > from the Bally Spy Hunter Arcade game -- From sspurling at gmail.com Tue Jul 13 19:48:20 2010 From: sspurling at gmail.com (Shannon Spurling) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2010 19:48:20 -0500 Subject: regarding Datamaster's and such In-Reply-To: <20100713051139.022775AA001@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> References: <4C37E654.2060509@gmail.com> <32158.30257.qm@web110603.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <20100713051139.022775AA001@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: <4C3D0954.9050805@gmail.com> On 7/13/2010 12:11 AM, Dennis Boone wrote: > Shannon, > > There were at least two computer models: 5322 (all-in-one) and 5324 > (screen plus deskside), three printer models: 5217, 5241 and 5242, an > external dual 8" diskette unit (5246), and a networked floorstanding > fixed disk unit (5247). IIRC, the 5324 computer and the 5247 disk unit > looked pretty similar except that the computer has floppy drives. The > disk unit was available in at least two variants - 15MB and 30MB. > > My first draft of this message suggested that you try using the search > term "system/23", but I tried it, and it doesn't help. :( I'm guessing > the narrow market segment and relatively short life span, plus IBM's > copyrights and such, are the cause. > > De > > Yup, that's exactly what I was looking for and could find no mention of. Not even on wiki's or classic computer directories that I could find talking about the Datamaster system. Usually they just say that an all in one predecessor of the PC called the Datamaster or System/23 was released months before the PC release date. I can't even find pictures of the 5324 unit, which is what I have. Just wish I could get this thing to boot. I think I may have corroded connections or something. So, is the basic in ROM? Do I have to have a system disk to get this thing to work? I really appreciate any additional information on this, and maybe these answers will help someone else too. Thanks Shannon From sspurling at gmail.com Tue Jul 13 19:53:39 2010 From: sspurling at gmail.com (Shannon Spurling) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2010 19:53:39 -0500 Subject: regarding Datamaster's and such In-Reply-To: <874869.55646.qm@web110612.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <874869.55646.qm@web110612.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4C3D0A93.70003@gmail.com> Cool! Thanks for the pictures and information. I was able to find the power tabs labeled in the silk screen on the power supply board. This saves me from having to trace them down. I recognize the floppy controller, and the ram card in those pictures. What are the other two expansion cards? I also remember there being some kind of frame that kind of held the ram card in place, and I am not sure what I did with it. I don't see one on your system. Is there any kind of mechanical support tab or rail on the back of your ram card to hold it in the slot? Thanks Shannon On 7/12/2010 6:11 PM, steven stengel wrote: > Some DataMaster pics - I hope this help, or is of interest! > > http://members.cox.net/stengel/temp/1.jpg > http://members.cox.net/stengel/temp/2.jpg > http://members.cox.net/stengel/temp/3.jpg > http://members.cox.net/stengel/temp/4.jpg > http://members.cox.net/stengel/temp/5.jpg > > > > > > --- On Fri, 7/9/10, Shannon Spurling wrote: > >> From: Shannon Spurling >> Subject: Re: regarding Datamaster's and such >> To: cctech at classiccmp.org >> Date: Friday, July 9, 2010, 8:17 PM >> Well, I have what is labeled as an >> IBM 5324. It appears to be a three piece system from the >> datamaster line, with a seperate CPU tower, monitor, >> keyboard, and printer. Only thing is, I can find no >> information on this thing actually being made. I am trying >> to verify that the power supply is actually working, but I >> have no data on it. Now, I also asked about basic in ROM. >> Someone said they didn't. I read they did, or at least some >> of them did. I can't find anything on an operating system, >> and the thing appears to have a lot of rom chips on the >> board. >> >> These are the things I have found so far: >> >> IBM indicates some hardware and software options in the >> datamaster line in their 1982 summary documents. Nothing >> else indicates anything other than a one piece unit was >> offered. Nothing else indicates a model with this number >> even though this thing is tagged all over as IBM hardware >> made in New York. >> >> From http://oldcomputers.net/ibm5322.html >> >> The OS is listed as built in basic, and the ram card and >> CPU "module" in this system is the same as what you see in >> my tower unit. You can see the floppy controller card >> plugged in on the far side of the CPU card with the yellow >> interface cable wires. In fact, I just need to know the >> nominal voltages that should be found on that red power >> connector. I have a feeling that I am missing some +5 and >> +12 power feeds, but I need to know what I am looking at. I >> measured using chassis ground and only got voltages on a >> couple of pins, and they all appeared to be negative. I >> think I am going to have to open the power supply, but those >> large caps always make me nervous. >> This is the same board, way different format, and all >> genuine IBM. I have that same green monitor in a separate >> unit with two cables that connect back to the tower. It has >> two legs that go up in the monitor cabinet that the thing >> can lift and drop on, and tilt. >> >> It has been in "storage" for a while, so I rather clean it >> up before I take any pictures of it. Maybe I'll get a chance >> to do that next week. If I need any software or 8" floppies >> where can I find those? And is there any refrence manuals? >> You would think someone could find this stuff online >> someplace. >> >> Thanks >> >> Shannon >> >> >> On 7/7/2010 1:21 AM, steven stengel wrote: >>> I have a Datamaster, but I missed the conversation. >>> Is there something I can help with? >>> Mine is buried only one-deep. >>> >>> >>> >>> --- On Tue, 7/6/10, Chris M >> wrote: >>>> From: Chris M >>>> Subject: regarding Datamaster's and such >>>> To: "talk" >>>> Date: Tuesday, July 6, 2010, 3:55 PM >>>> a picture (or 2) might help Sharon >>>> :) >>>> >>>> IIRC, the *8085* in the System 23/Datamaster >> wasn't >>>> identified as such. It had some sort of IBM house >> number. >>>> Haven't opened mine in a while, but that's what I >> remember. >>>> Be specific about what you mean by p/s issues. And >> if >>>> that's the case, you're advised to test the >> voltages under >>>> load...but not the motherboard load/s. >>>> >>>> Perhaps you have a repackaged Datamaster. Mine >>>> unfortunately is *unavailable* for perusal at this >> present >>>> time. I do believe there are other people on the >> list that >>>> have one, but they don't seem to participate these >> days. >>>> Mine is buried beneath about 12 other machines >> (was I >>>> supposed to put it on top? It weighs ~95 lbs yer >> know). >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >> > > > > From jws at jwsss.com Tue Jul 13 21:03:39 2010 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2010 19:03:39 -0700 Subject: 68K ISA project In-Reply-To: <713411.1737.qm@web112416.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <713411.1737.qm@web112416.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4C3D1AFB.1060002@jwsss.com> He seems to have worked for IU, Purdue, and written for Circuit Cellar Ink. Following is an index of his articles. http://www.dtweed.com/circuitcellar/xcyliaxi.htm#1303 CCI #86 9/1997 p62 is the first 68030 article Part 1: The Hardware CCI #87 10/1997 p66 is the second 68030 article Part 2: The Boot PROM Monitor & Device Drivers CCI #88 10/1997 p66 is the third 68030 article Part 3: Cross-Development Environment and Downloading On 7/13/2010 5:36 PM, Tom Watson wrote: > I believe that the project you are interested in is the one done by Ingo Cyliax at Indiana University. He developed (for a class I believe) an ISA form factor board that had a MC68030. At one time I had all the artwork& schematics (I may still??). A search brought up a couple of references, but the page at Indiana University seems to have been taken down. It was a pretty good system, including interfaces for keyboards and mice (I believe). It DID have ISA slots, and the ROM software worked against a standard IDE/Serial/Parallel board set, booting the disk. The memory was fixed at 4 megs (I may be wrong at this), and used the synchronous interface of the MC68030. The ISA portion used the async interface for the ISA timing, and an interrupt multiplexer multi interface chip (MC68901??) to handle the keyboard I/O. > > The web site also included a frame buffer that used an alternate interface that was provided for. I believe that there was an edition of Minix that ran on it as well. I suspect that with a little work 68k Linux ought to work, as the MC68030 has an MMU. > > Maybe someone can use this information to access the Wayback machine and get a proper pointer. > > Hope this helps. > > > > > > From tosteve at yahoo.com Wed Jul 14 02:09:52 2010 From: tosteve at yahoo.com (steven stengel) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2010 00:09:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: regarding Datamaster's and such In-Reply-To: <4C3D0A93.70003@gmail.com> Message-ID: <693485.98065.qm@web110614.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> I'm not sure about what all of the cards are for, but the RAM card just kind of sits there, with no visible means of support. --- On Tue, 7/13/10, Shannon Spurling wrote: > From: Shannon Spurling > Subject: Re: regarding Datamaster's and such > To: "On-Topic Posts Only" > Date: Tuesday, July 13, 2010, 5:53 PM > ? Cool! Thanks for the pictures > and information. I was able to find the > power tabs labeled in the silk screen on the power supply > board. This > saves me from having to trace them down. I recognize the > floppy > controller, and the ram card in those pictures. What are > the other two > expansion cards? I also remember there being some kind of > frame that > kind of held the ram card in place, and I am not sure what > I did with > it. I don't see one on your system. Is there any kind of > mechanical > support tab or rail on the back of your ram card to hold it > in the slot? > > Thanks > > Shannon > > On 7/12/2010 6:11 PM, steven stengel wrote: > > Some DataMaster pics - I hope this help, or is of > interest! > > > > http://members.cox.net/stengel/temp/1.jpg > > http://members.cox.net/stengel/temp/2.jpg > > http://members.cox.net/stengel/temp/3.jpg > > http://members.cox.net/stengel/temp/4.jpg > > http://members.cox.net/stengel/temp/5.jpg > > > > > > > > > > > > --- On Fri, 7/9/10, Shannon Spurling? > wrote: > > > >> From: Shannon Spurling > >> Subject: Re: regarding Datamaster's and such > >> To: cctech at classiccmp.org > >> Date: Friday, July 9, 2010, 8:17 PM > >>???Well, I have what is labeled as > an > >> IBM 5324. It appears to be a three piece system > from the > >> datamaster line, with a seperate CPU tower, > monitor, > >> keyboard, and printer. Only thing is, I can find > no > >> information on this thing actually being made. I > am trying > >> to verify that the power supply is actually > working, but I > >> have no data on it. Now, I also asked about basic > in ROM. > >> Someone said they didn't. I read they did, or at > least some > >> of them did. I can't find anything on an operating > system, > >> and the thing appears to have a lot of rom chips > on the > >> board. > >> > >> These are the things I have found so far: > >> > >> IBM indicates some hardware and software options > in the > >> datamaster line in their 1982 summary documents. > Nothing > >> else indicates anything other than a one piece > unit was > >> offered. Nothing else indicates a model with this > number > >> even though this thing is tagged all over as IBM > hardware > >> made in New York. > >> > >>? From http://oldcomputers.net/ibm5322.html > >> > >> The OS is listed as built in basic, and the ram > card and > >> CPU "module" in this system is the same as what > you see in > >> my tower unit. You can see the floppy controller > card > >> plugged in on the far side of the CPU card with > the yellow > >> interface cable wires. In fact, I just need to > know the > >> nominal voltages that should be found on that red > power > >> connector. I have a feeling that I am missing some > +5 and > >> +12 power feeds, but I need to know what I am > looking at. I > >> measured using chassis ground and only got > voltages on a > >> couple of pins, and they all appeared to be > negative. I > >> think I am going to have to open the power supply, > but those > >> large caps always make me nervous. > >> This is the same board, way different format, and > all > >> genuine IBM. I have that same green monitor in a > separate > >> unit with two cables that connect back to the > tower. It has > >> two legs that go up in the monitor cabinet that > the thing > >> can lift and drop on, and tilt. > >> > >> It has been in "storage" for a while, so I rather > clean it > >> up before I take any pictures of it. Maybe I'll > get a chance > >> to do that next week. If I need any software or 8" > floppies > >> where can I find those? And is there any refrence > manuals? > >> You would think someone could find this stuff > online > >> someplace. > >> > >> Thanks > >> > >> Shannon > >> > >> > >> On 7/7/2010 1:21 AM, steven stengel wrote: > >>> I have a Datamaster, but I missed the > conversation. > >>> Is there something I can help with? > >>> Mine is buried only one-deep. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> --- On Tue, 7/6/10, Chris M > >> wrote: > >>>> From: Chris M > >>>> Subject: regarding Datamaster's and such > >>>> To: "talk" > >>>> Date: Tuesday, July 6, 2010, 3:55 PM > >>>> a picture (or 2) might help Sharon > >>>> :) > >>>> > >>>> IIRC, the *8085* in the System > 23/Datamaster > >> wasn't > >>>> identified as such. It had some sort of > IBM house > >> number. > >>>> Haven't opened mine in a while, but that's > what I > >> remember. > >>>> Be specific about what you mean by p/s > issues. And > >> if > >>>> that's the case, you're advised to test > the > >> voltages under > >>>> load...but not the motherboard load/s. > >>>> > >>>> Perhaps you have a repackaged Datamaster. > Mine > >>>> unfortunately is *unavailable* for perusal > at this > >> present > >>>> time. I do believe there are other people > on the > >> list that > >>>> have one, but they don't seem to > participate these > >> days. > >>>> Mine is buried beneath about 12 other > machines > >> (was I > >>>> supposed to put it on top? It weighs ~95 > lbs yer > >> know). > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Jul 14 03:30:33 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2010 04:30:33 -0400 Subject: 68K ISA project In-Reply-To: <730651.41751.qm@web65512.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> References: <730651.41751.qm@web65512.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4C3D75A9.7050704@neurotica.com> 39 hits for "MC68020" on eBay right now... -Dave On 7/13/10 7:09 PM, Chris M wrote: > is that a fact? Please tell me where > > --- On Tue, 7/13/10, Dave McGuire wrote: > >> Urr? 68020s are all over the place. > > > > -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From thrashbarg at kaput.homeunix.org Wed Jul 14 04:18:03 2010 From: thrashbarg at kaput.homeunix.org (Alexis) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2010 18:48:03 +0930 Subject: Microbyte PC-230 Message-ID: <1279099083.1404.18.camel@fubar> Hi, I've started playing around with this old XT/AT compatible machine I've had for a while, called the Microbyte PC-230. It's designed locally in South Australia. My question regards the OS installation. A thoughtful person has uploaded the installation disks to driverguide.com but they're not images, but ZIP files of the contents of the install disks. It seems the install program checks the disk label or something similar to see if the correct disk is in the drive. I don't know the disk label or anything else about the original disks so I can't install the OS on the hard drive. The original hard drive is a 20MB Miniscribe which has developed bad sectors, so I've installed a 511MB DEC badged hard drive. The system has the odd feature of having on-board SCSI. It's an 8086 (NEC V30). I've had a poke through (or peek as it were) the INSTALL.EXE file on disk 1. There are a heap of null-terminated strings towards the end of it. Just after the message which says to insert disk 1 it has the string "\MBSCO1". I can only assume this is the disk label, but setting the disk for that doesn't let the program continue. Even setting the disk with a backslash in Linux doesn't help. After the second insert disk message there's a "\MBSCO2" string too. Perhaps I'm missing something. Any thoughts? Alexis. From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Wed Jul 14 06:19:31 2010 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2010 07:19:31 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Wanted: HP boards In-Reply-To: References: <20100623091737.7f0c7021.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <4C224DE8.7000109@neurotica.com> <178A8B709B8744A98D44F39912045EF0@dell8300> <4C225181.2090002@neurotica.com> <4C22533F.1040902@neurotica.com> <4C24EBC0.5070508@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 13 Jul 2010, Mike Loewen wrote: > > I'm looking for some boards to populate a HP 2109E: > > 12966A BACI (Buffered Asynchronous Communications Interface) > > 12351D Terminal Interface Oops, typo. What I meant was the 12531D High Speed Terminal Interface. Also looking for a 12924A Card Reader Interface for the 2892A. Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From dkelvey at hotmail.com Wed Jul 14 07:52:28 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2010 05:52:28 -0700 Subject: Wanted: HP boards In-Reply-To: References: <20100623091737.7f0c7021.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>, <4C224DE8.7000109@neurotica.com>, <178A8B709B8744A98D44F39912045EF0@dell8300>, <4C225181.2090002@neurotica.com> <4C22533F.1040902@neurotica.com>, , , <4C24EBC0.5070508@gmail.com>, Message-ID: > Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2010 22:45:51 -0400 > From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Wanted: HP boards > > > I'm looking for some boards to populate a HP 2109E: > > 12966A BACI (Buffered Asynchronous Communications Interface) > > 12351D Terminal Interface Hi There is one of these on ebay for $40. I've bought stuff from him in the past and he is OK. He has a wherehouse full of HP stuff. He most likely has the other boards youare looking for as well. Dwight > > Any memory boards which will work with a 2102B Memory Controller > > And, if anyone has a 7970E 9-track and a 13183A controller taking up > valuable space, I might be interested. Email me privately if you have any > spare boards, and your asking price. Thanks! > > > Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us > Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ > _________________________________________________________________ The New Busy is not the too busy. Combine all your e-mail accounts with Hotmail. http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?tile=multiaccount&ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_4 From dkelvey at hotmail.com Wed Jul 14 08:23:05 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2010 06:23:05 -0700 Subject: blowing PAL fuses In-Reply-To: References: <20100623091737.7f0c7021.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>, , <4C224DE8.7000109@neurotica.com>, , <178A8B709B8744A98D44F39912045EF0@dell8300>, , <4C225181.2090002@neurotica.com> <4C22533F.1040902@neurotica.com>, , , , , , <4C24EBC0.5070508@gmail.com>, , , Message-ID: Hi I'm creating a JEDEC file to blow a 16R4. I have a question. On a row that isn't used, is it better to blow all but two of the fuses or not blow any? Which is better from a power point of view? If one leave just two fuses not blown, is it better to change which columns across the lines or to just use a single column pair? Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail is redefining busy with tools for the New Busy. Get more from your inbox. http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_2 From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Wed Jul 14 09:29:13 2010 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2010 10:29:13 -0400 Subject: RTEM-11 Message-ID: <4C3DC9B9.2080105@compsys.to> I have fixed some of the bugs in a program which runs under RT-11 (obviously using the PDP-11 instruction set - since actual DEC PDP-11 hardware can be replaced by either other compatible hardware on an emulator such as SIMH or E11). The bugs were causing problems when the program was run under VBGEXE, especially when the program was run as a system job. The requirements for the changes and additions to the RT-11 code have been determined. However, the same program is expected to run under RSTS/E (using SWITCH RT11), TSX-Plus (which is fully compatible) and RTEM-11. It is this last expectation for which I have been unable to find any documentation, let alone any ability to test the program. Does anyone who is reading this know where there might be documentation available concerning how RTEM-11 handles RT-11 EMT requests? In addition, does anyone know of any systems currently running which support RTEM-11 features which allow RT-11 programs to run in that environment? My assumption is that VMS on a VAX supported RTEM-11 at some point, but perhaps (if I am correct) the RTEM-11 support was not continued with more recent versions of VMS on the VAX and most definitely VMS on the Alpha. Can anyone comment on these questions? Jerome Fine From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Jul 14 10:04:19 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2010 11:04:19 -0400 Subject: RTEM-11 In-Reply-To: <4C3DC9B9.2080105@compsys.to> References: <4C3DC9B9.2080105@compsys.to> Message-ID: On 7/14/10, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > In addition, does anyone know of any systems currently running > which support RTEM-11 features which allow RT-11 programs > to run in that environment? My assumption is that VMS on a VAX > supported RTEM-11 at some point, but perhaps (if I am correct) > the RTEM-11 support was not continued with > more recent versions of VMS on the VAX and most definitely VMS on the > Alpha. Can anyone comment on these questions? Based on the vague reference at http://s-and-b.net/help?key=RTEM~Release_notes&title=VMS Help&referer= and what I know of VMS and DEC hardware, I'd think that RTEM-11 would require a VAX processor with "compatibility mode", i.e., a "VAX-11" processor. The primary models would be the 11/78x, 11/750, 11/730 and 11/725 (I don't recall if the VAX 86xx still had "compatibility mode" or not, but it should be easy to check). MicroVAXen and such did not have it, and Alpha processors certainly did not have it. That being said, I have no experience with RTEM-11, but I would be surprised to learn it ran on a machine made after about 1986 or so. -ethan From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Wed Jul 14 12:59:58 2010 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2010 19:59:58 +0200 Subject: 68K ISA project In-Reply-To: <392492.32548.qm@web65502.mail.ac4.yahoo.com><4C3C161B.9080009@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <392492.32548.qm@web65502.mail.ac4.yahoo.com><4C3C161B.9080009@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: From: "Ethan Dicks" Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 2010 9:00 PM To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: 68K ISA project > I don't recall seeing anything in a DIP package badged faster than > 12.5MHz, but perhaps one of the newer dies (68EC000?) might go faster > and still be bus and register-compatible with the original? You're probably right. The 68EC000 is QFP (IIRC) isn't it? The 68000 DIL package is an impressive chip (taking a lot of PCB space). > I'm sure there'd be some interest but based on my experience, you > should probably set performance expectations around a nominal 8MHz CPU > (since they are so much more common than the faster varieties). If > you make a "DTACK Grounded" 68000 SBC design, modern SRAM and > EPROM are plenty fast enough to keep up and it _would_ keep the design > simple (two 8-bit-wide ROMs, two 8-bit-wide SRAMs, whatever I/O, which > might be your only bottleneck, depending on what serial chip you might > pick - we had to do software throttling on our old 4MHz Z8530 serial > design - lots of careful coding and uncareful sprinkling of NOPs to > dodge back-to-back reads and writes of the SIO). It really needn't be > much more complex than a 6809 design with a 16-bit bus. Jup. I was indeed thinking of byte-wide SRAM and EPROM (27512). To keep things simple (and code efficient / fast) the EPROM will sit in $FFFF0000-$FFFFFFFF (you need some ROM there for the reset vector) and the RAM sits at $00000000-$0000FFFF. If you know the 68000, those 2 regions are "zero page" and references are shorter which means less code bytes and less clock cycles. I was thinking of simple 6850 ACIA's and 6821 PIA's (or better 6522). The standard version runs at 1 MHz, the "B" version at 2 MHz (or was it 1.5 MHz?) With simple address decoding you can use the peripheral chips in combination with VPA*. When VPA* is asserted the 68000 goes into a synchronous mode at one tenth of its clock and you can interface the 6800 synchronous interface chips directly. Using the "B" version means that you can clock the 68000 at 12.5 MHz (maybe at 16). The FDC (2793) would be used to implement RX01 for the simulated pdp8/e. I have once written a "DOS" in 6809 assembler, and have that rewritten in 68000. I remember that I have used it, so that code must be somewhat working :-) EPROM and RAM at 100ns or 70 ns is easy to get. As everything goes on one single Euro card, there is no need for address or data buffers. > Something that might be an interesting alternative to a VT220 might be > an HD44780-type textual LCD, especially a wide format panel like 2x40 > (or the less common but impressive 4x40). OTOH, depending on your > ASCII art, it wouldn't be difficult to rig up an AVR microcontroller > to interpret your selected terminal codes and drive the LCD panel as > an option. Nice!! I will give this some thought ... you could connect the LCD via a parallel interface directly to the 68000 board and let the 68000 do the addressing. Later, for performance reasons, you could offload some tasks for the LCD to an AVR. 2x40 would be enough for the 2 rows of lights on the 8/e front panel. 4x40 would leave room for a (debug) output text line, and you could implement on the bottom row a "soft key" text line. Just beneath the LCD are a few rectangular push buttons. Its meaning depends on the state and is indicated on that 4th line of the display. I am thinking of this, because in my 6809-pdp8/e I implemented some of the HP64000 style debugging commands. The HP64000 also uses that soft key idea. Commands are built by pushing the buttons. The meaning of them changes as the debug command is constructed (eg: "trace until address" or "run until address"). Hmm, I'm getting carried away! > I'm always interested in discussing 68000 designs real and imagined. > I first ran across a preliminary spec sheet back when I was using a > PET every week and five years later was using them every day at work. Yes, 68000 articles always triggers me too :-) I have to brush up my knowledge of the 68000 hardware and see what is available (for low cost of course). - Henk. > Cheers, > > -ethan > From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Jul 14 13:19:16 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2010 14:19:16 -0400 Subject: 68K ISA project In-Reply-To: References: <392492.32548.qm@web65502.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <4C3C161B.9080009@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On 7/14/10, Henk Gooijen wrote: > From: "Ethan Dicks" >> I don't recall seeing anything in a DIP package badged faster than >> 12.5MHz... (68EC000?) > > You're probably right. The 68EC000 is QFP (IIRC) isn't it? I think so. > The 68000 DIL package is an impressive chip (taking a lot of PCB space). It's more impressive covered in logic prove leads. I still have a Northwest Systems analyer (that taps all the pins via a pod and fat ribbon cables) which does logic and code tracing (buffering the past 4096 bus accesses and driven by a dedicated IBM 5150 PC). I haven't fired that up in years, so I have no idea if it would work without maintenance, but all the gear is stacked in a VAX-11/725 chassis that was stripped at work (at the time, it was cheaper to buy entire 11/725s than individual replacement 11/730 parts) with the pod cables coming out the RC25 hole. > Jup. I was indeed thinking of byte-wide SRAM and EPROM (27512). > To keep things simple (and code efficient / fast) the EPROM will sit > in $FFFF0000-$FFFFFFFF (you need some ROM there for the reset > vector) ISTR the reset vector is low - there's a fiddly circuit in the Amiga for that, and we had our own "BOOT BIT" that got hammered to migrate the ROM from low to high. I think the "modern" technique is to mirror ROM at $0 and $FFnnnnnn and have a circuit that monitors A23 - as soon ass A23 goes high, clobber the ROM mirror at $0 and open it up to RAM. > and the RAM sits at $00000000-$0000FFFF. If you know the > 68000, those 2 regions are "zero page" and references are shorter > which means less code bytes and less clock cycles. Right, plus you can have runtime-resettable TRAP and INT vectors. > I was thinking of simple 6850 ACIA's and 6821 PIA's (or better 6522). I've interfaced 6821s to 68000s (very simple) and the original Mac has a 6522... > use the peripheral chips in combination with VPA*... Yep. > EPROM and RAM at 100ns or 70 ns is easy to get. As everything goes > on one single Euro card, there is no need for address or data buffers. Indeed, though I think even our single-board COMBOARD had address buffers - dunno if that'd still be necessary with 6-8 modern chips on the bus. We had two EPROMs, a DRAM chip, some internal logic for Unibus or Qbus DMA, and 2-3 I/O peripherals (Z8530, MC6821, etc). I'd prepare for the possibility that you'd need to have a couple of '245s there, but for a prototype, you could jumper across the '245 pins and see how the address lines hold up. >> Something that might be an interesting alternative to a VT220 might be >> an HD44780-type textual LCD... > > Nice!! > I will give this some thought ... you could connect the LCD via a parallel > interface directly to the 68000 board and let the 68000 do the addressing. Yes. Trivially (2-3 address bits and 8 data bits and perhaps 2 gates more than the upper address select logic. > Later, for performance reasons, you could offload some tasks for the > LCD to an AVR. Could do that. > 2x40 would be enough for the 2 rows of lights on the 8/e front panel. I can see that. > 4x40 would leave room for a (debug) output text line, and you could > implement on the bottom row a "soft key" text line. Just beneath the > LCD are a few rectangular push buttons. Its meaning depends on the > state and is indicated on that 4th line of the display. Interesting idea - I think that would be cool. 2x40 displays are much cheaper than 4x40 displays, though. I've picked them up attached to Satellite TV receiver front panels (with LEDs and pushbuttons and software-controllable contrast) from companies like BG Micro for as little as $8. For a bit more, you can get 2x40 VFDs that you could see across the room. The only thing that isn't immediately apparent to me is the switch-to-switch dimension to line up switches with the display bits (if you wanted to do that sort of thing - even simulated lights with just a "boot" switch would be interesting to watch as the machine ran through its paces). Cheers, -ethan From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jul 14 13:10:06 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2010 19:10:06 +0100 (BST) Subject: 68K ISA project In-Reply-To: <652865.65082.qm@web65515.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> from "Chris M" at Jul 13, 10 04:17:04 pm Message-ID: > > arcade boards aren't that cheap anymore. How's about a Genesis. As > common as teeth. And often-forgotten range of 68K machines are the older HP9000s, in particular the HP9000/200 and 9000/300 families. Personally I'd go for a 9000/200 seires machine, although it's only a 68000 (or a 68010 if you are lucky and get a 9817 or a 9826U/9836U), there are many fewer custom parts than in later machines, so repairing them is a lot easier. The 9000/200 machines that I've worked on are very solid (and you'd expect from HP), you can run either HP technical BASIC (which does allow you to run short machine code routines), or Pascal (which is based on UCSD Pascal, and IIRC includes an assembler) -tony > > --- On Tue, 7/13/10, Dan Roganti wrote: > > > if you want a quick 'n simple way to get into 68K > > programming. You can always hack a cheap 68K sound board > > from the Bally Spy Hunter Arcade game -- > > > > > From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Jul 14 14:37:15 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2010 15:37:15 -0400 Subject: 68K ISA project In-Reply-To: References: <652865.65082.qm@web65515.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Someone on the list wrote: >> arcade boards aren't that cheap anymore. No, they really aren't. I used to be able to get piles of them from US Arcade Amusements auctions (the local ones were held a long walk from my house!) but they suspended their quarterly road shows some time back. In terms of 68K arcade hardware, I do have a fully working Xenophobe ($200 at a USAA auction a few years back) but the hacking I've done on it is cabinet hacking, not board hacking. I added in an RS170-to-RGBI board and an external cable to tap off an unused L and R audio input (my audio board is the 4-channel version, of which 2 are used by the game) and can hook an external laser disc player to the cabinet, which I've used to play Space Ace and Dragon's Lair (from the original discs as well as the Reproduction last-ever-pressed-laserdisc version) using the Daphne emulator running on an old P133 laptop running RedHat9. As for hacking the Xenophobe hardware, I'd probably rather keep it intact and try to do more with additional gameplay from the same cabinet. If I _really_ got bored, I could try to hack up an old COMBOARD (8MHZ 68K, 128K DRAM, 128K EPROM, MC6821, COM5025 sync serial, Unibus DMA interface that's just taking up space...) into a game platform. It's the one I keep staring at and thinking what it would take to turn into a Unibus disk controller - the answer is usually more hacking and stretching than I have time for even though I have full manufacturing data, schematics, ROM source, etc. In the long term, I should see about a new tube/monitor for it - the Xenophobe screen burn is rather bad. It's an ordinary RGB arcade display with H and V sync - not rare in the slightest - the sort of thing that was commonly emulated in MAME cabinets 10 years ago with $200 TVs from Walmart. >> How's about a Genesis. As common as teeth. I have many more teeth than I have Sega game consoles (24 vs 1 - I've had a bit of dental work done ;-) Seriously, though, I do see them from time to time in consignment shops, but nowhere near as many as I see Sony PS/1s, the current favorite to dump from what I can tell. For the past year, I could pick up at least one PS/1 per week, but only one Genesis over the entire year. I've occasionally thought about hacking the Dragonball processor in old Palm Pilots (I have almost as many of them as I have teeth, and they take up less room than game consoles), but in the end, I might as well just write an app for PalmOS as try to repurpose the platform and hack on the bare metal. If Palms had more I/O than a screen, an IR port (for Palm III and newer) and a serial port, they might be more interesting to repurpose, but so far, the best "classic" re-use I've found for an old Palm is PalmOrb, an app that emulates a Matrix Orbital 20x4 LCD display down to the command set and optional keypad. An old Palm V with serial cradle (so it's easy to view and easy to keep powered) is cheaper than a "real" LCD. -ethan From sb at thebackend.de Wed Jul 14 15:27:51 2010 From: sb at thebackend.de (Sebastian Brueckner) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2010 22:27:51 +0200 Subject: 68K (ISA) project In-Reply-To: References: <392492.32548.qm@web65502.mail.ac4.yahoo.com><4C3C161B.9080009@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4C3E1DC7.9030806@thebackend.de> On 14.07.10 19:59, Henk Gooijen wrote: > > Jup. I was indeed thinking of byte-wide SRAM and EPROM (27512). > To keep things simple (and code efficient / fast) the EPROM will sit > in $FFFF0000-$FFFFFFFF (you need some ROM there for the reset > vector) and the RAM sits at $00000000-$0000FFFF. If you know the > 68000, those 2 regions are "zero page" and references are shorter > which means less code bytes and less clock cycles. I thought all interrupt vectors started from address 0. What do you need A23 and the high addresses for? I've read about designs that map ROM to $00 on boot to load stack pointer etc. and remap to RAM later on to allow the user program to modify the interrupt vectors. How do I know then to remap the memory? I'd imagine it's done by the monitor program, but I seem to recall that it was a hardware-only solution. Have to find the article (German c't magazine's "Kat-CE" I think it is). Also, are there any grave disadvantages in leaving the ROM at address $00 and using a jump table in RAM for the interrupts? I am getting more and more tempted to try and built my own 68k SBC. Being born in '84 it seems I missed out on all the interesting computers... Sebastian From ljw-cctech at ljw.me.uk Wed Jul 14 15:30:22 2010 From: ljw-cctech at ljw.me.uk (Lawrence Wilkinson) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2010 21:30:22 +0100 Subject: 360/30 simulator video Message-ID: <1279139422.8963.18.camel@entasis> I have created a YouTube account and uploaded a short video showing the simulator running a small program: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=walWU2MQ2OM Sorry about the lack of video quality, but I'm sure you'll get the idea. If you want to know more, you can get the FETOM Y24-3360-1 from Bitsavers (or a mirror!) There is a front-panel layout on p6-2 of this manual, which may help in deciphering the panel lamps. The program being run is The "Indian" Problem on p73 of the Introduction to System/360 Assembler Language manual SC20-1646-6, also on Bitsavers. It is loaded at address 100. I am in the process of readying the VHDL files for release - tidying up and adding GPL headers at the moment. They should be available within the next week or two. -- Lawrence Wilkinson lawrence at ljw.me.uk The IBM 360/30 page http://www.ljw.me.uk/ibm360 From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Jul 14 16:14:03 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2010 17:14:03 -0400 Subject: 68K (ISA) project In-Reply-To: <4C3E1DC7.9030806@thebackend.de> References: <392492.32548.qm@web65502.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <4C3C161B.9080009@jetnet.ab.ca> <4C3E1DC7.9030806@thebackend.de> Message-ID: On 7/14/10, Sebastian Brueckner wrote: > On 14.07.10 19:59, Henk Gooijen wrote: >> ... the EPROM will sit in $FFFF0000-$FFFFFFFF (you need some >> ROM there for the reset vector) and the RAM sits at $00000000... > > I thought all interrupt vectors started from address 0. They do, though on the Amiga, for example, $00000000 is routinely filled with $0000 and $00000004 contains a pointer into the master library vector through which all OS resources are accessed, but TRAP and IRQ vectors are definitely at the bottom of the 16MB map. > What do you need A23 and the high addresses for? >From the designs I have experience with, to make it easy to glom onto upper bits to trivially slice and dice the memory map into swaths of RAM, ROM, I/O, etc. For the COMBOARD, A23 and A22 are used to divide the entire memory map into 4 zones - RAM at the bottom, then up to 4MB of addresses that map one-to-one over to Unibus or Qbus locations for the host (there's no scatter-gather circuit - you just MOVE buffers into this space and hardware initiates NPR cycles and such), then I/O (with *lots* of mirrors and holes, then ROM (with lots of mirrors). It's an embedded design that was only ever manufactured with 2MB of physical RAM and a 22-bit DMA zone, so the decoding circuit is simple. Workstations and other designs that need to maximize RAM space are typically more complex in terms of address zone decoding. As for "why ROM on top?", I'd say it's because most designers in the 1980s had experience with machines where either RAM or ROM had to be on top or bottom of the memory map because of some architectural requirement (like the 6502, in particular), so they made their 68K designs look familiar. > I've read about designs that map ROM to $00 on boot to load stack > pointer etc. and remap to RAM later on to allow the user program to > modify the interrupt vectors. Yes. I think every 68K design I've seen allows for vectors in RAM, but I've seen many techniques to accomplish it. > How do I know then to remap the memory? I'd imagine it's done by the > monitor program, but I seem to recall that it was a hardware-only > solution. Have to find the article (German c't magazine's "Kat-CE" I > think it is). "Know" is a difficult question to resolve. In the case of the Amiga, the ROM code does some very simple checks for things (like ROM signatures, IIRC) then jumps from "low ROM" to "high ROM" before banking out "low ROM" and letting "low RAM" shine through (some Amigas have RAM in the middle, so called $C000000 RAM, so their maps are not contigious, but it's a complex design to be sure). For embedded stuff I've done, I've seen it rigged up so writes to "low ROM" really end up as writes to underlying RAM, so you just copy a routine then push ROM away and fall into RAM, or you jump to some previously established init routine in "high ROM" and use an I/O register to whisk away low ROM. Later designs I've seen keyed off of A23 for a "registerless" solution - but your init code in low ROM had better be doing a jump as the first access above $8000000 or I can see bad things happening. > Also, are there any grave disadvantages in leaving the ROM at address > $00 and using a jump table in RAM for the interrupts? Speed. More code to execute between the initiation of the interrupt and the beginning of the real ISR. Also if you are a _real_ speed freak, as Henk mentioned, you can treat the bottom 64K as a sort-of zero page and run with 16-bit pointers to spend less time setting up registers and such, keeping your code size smaller and your execution times slightly lower if you have RAM at the bottom. > I am getting more and more tempted to try and built my own 68k SBC. > Being born in '84 it seems I missed out on all the interesting computers... If you got your start after age 10, the Wintel monoculture was already well established. Fortunately, there are many, many existing "interesting" machines to study, and plenty of ways to emulate them in hardware or software or both. -ethan From spedraja at ono.com Wed Jul 14 16:19:27 2010 From: spedraja at ono.com (SPC) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2010 23:19:27 +0200 Subject: ACE xx2247 key Message-ID: Hello. I sent this request initially to PDP8-Lovers list, but I send the same request here in the confidence of some help. I am cleaning one PDP8E box with some boards inside. Previously to do some cleaning of the internal boards, I tried to fire up the computer yesterday. In appeareance nothing is wrong no strange smells, no burns, no clouds, no boom!, etc...) But... I don't have the front key :-) One ACE xx2247 is needed. I don't have one available, and is impossible for me to get one in my country (Spain). I would be grateful is someone could provide me one, or even a couple. Contact me off list if you want to discuss details. Regards Sergio From bqt at softjar.se Wed Jul 14 13:00:10 2010 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2010 20:00:10 +0200 Subject: RTEM-11 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C3DFB2A.40007@softjar.se> "Jerome H. Fine" wrote: > I have fixed some of the bugs in a program which runs under RT-11 > (obviously using the > PDP-11 instruction set - since actual DEC PDP-11 hardware can be > replaced by either > other compatible hardware on an emulator such as SIMH or E11). > > The bugs were causing problems when the program was run under VBGEXE, > especially > when the program was run as a system job. > > The requirements for the changes and additions to the RT-11 code have > been determined. > > However, the same program is expected to run under RSTS/E (using SWITCH > RT11), > TSX-Plus (which is fully compatible) and RTEM-11. It is this last > expectation for which I > have been unable to find any documentation, let alone any ability to > test the program. Does > anyone who is reading this know where there might be documentation > available concerning > how RTEM-11 handles RT-11 EMT requests? In addition, does anyone know > of any > systems currently running which support RTEM-11 features which allow > RT-11 programs > to run in that environment? My assumption is that VMS on a VAX > supported RTEM-11 > at some point, but perhaps (if I am correct) the RTEM-11 support was not > continued with > more recent versions of VMS on the VAX and most definitely VMS on the > Alpha. Can > anyone comment on these questions? As far as I know, RTEM-11 will not run under VMS. It was a product for RSX-11M (only). Long since retired now, and I don't have any details on it. However, I seem to remember that when you do an -11M SYSGEN, you still get a question for some RTEM-11 support to be included in the system. As expected, it will trap RT11 EMTs, but exactly what it will do for specific EMTs, and in which cases it might differ from RT11, I have no idea. It's probably also not compatible with any "recent" changes to RT11, just so that you know... Johnny From bqt at softjar.se Wed Jul 14 13:28:00 2010 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2010 20:28:00 +0200 Subject: RTEM-11 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C3E01B0.804@softjar.se> Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 7/14/10, Jerome H. Fine wrote: >> In addition, does anyone know of any systems currently running >> which support RTEM-11 features which allow RT-11 programs >> to run in that environment? My assumption is that VMS on a VAX >> supported RTEM-11 at some point, but perhaps (if I am correct) >> the RTEM-11 support was not continued with >> more recent versions of VMS on the VAX and most definitely VMS on the >> Alpha. Can anyone comment on these questions? > > Based on the vague reference at > http://s-and-b.net/help?key=RTEM~Release_notes&title=VMS Help&referer= > and what I know of VMS and DEC hardware, I'd think that RTEM-11 would > require a VAX processor with "compatibility mode", i.e., a "VAX-11" > processor. The primary models would be the 11/78x, 11/750, 11/730 and > 11/725 (I don't recall if the VAX 86xx still had "compatibility mode" > or not, but it should be easy to check). MicroVAXen and such did not > have it, and Alpha processors certainly did not have it. > > That being said, I have no experience with RTEM-11, but I would be > surprised to learn it ran on a machine made after about 1986 or so. RTEM might be something else than RTEM-11, which was a software product for RSX. Just google for RTEM-11, and you'll find some references for it. However, I wonder about RTEM for VAX. It's certainly possible, but I can't find any other reference to it, and DEC's old SPDs, especially those with software version compatiblity matrixes, are usually pretty good as a way of finding out what software existed. As for PDP-11 compatibility in VAXen, yes, the 86x0 machines have that. Those were the last, however. For all other VAXen running VMS, if you wanted to run RSX software, you needed a PDP-11 emulator product for VMS, which was available, in addition to the RSX additions for VMS, which was also a separate product. That thing was supported up until fairly recently, though. But again, that's for RSX stuff... Johnny From IanK at vulcan.com Wed Jul 14 16:37:25 2010 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2010 14:37:25 -0700 Subject: ACE xx2247 key In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I have seen these on eBay quite often. That's where I got the one for my 8/e. :-) Also, it is possible to rotate the cam that engages the microswitches behind the key so that the machine is "always on" and you can control the power with a powerstrip. That's how my 8/e was when I got it. It doesn't damage the machine but allows you to power it until you can find a key. -- Ian > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of SPC > Sent: Wednesday, July 14, 2010 2:19 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only > Subject: ACE xx2247 key > > Hello. I sent this request initially to PDP8-Lovers list, but I send > the > same request here in the confidence of some help. > > I am cleaning one PDP8E box with some boards inside. Previously to do > some > cleaning of the internal boards, I tried to fire up the computer > yesterday. > In appeareance nothing is wrong no strange smells, no burns, no clouds, > no > boom!, etc...) > > But... I don't have the front key :-) > > One ACE xx2247 is needed. I don't have one available, and is impossible > for > me to get one in my country (Spain). > > I would be grateful is someone could provide me one, or even a couple. > Contact me off list if you want to discuss details. > > Regards > Sergio From classiccmp at crash.com Wed Jul 14 16:39:18 2010 From: classiccmp at crash.com (Steven M Jones) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2010 14:39:18 -0700 Subject: Moto 88k on ISA card (was Re: 68K ISA project) Message-ID: <4C3E2E86.5010905@crash.com> > Were there any ISA boards released with the Motorola 88000-series CPU on them? But of course! Opus Systems, like Definicon, put a couple of different CPUs on full-length ISA cards that would be added to or bundled with PCs to create a lower cost workstation in the latter half of the 80s. Opus delivered products using the Nat Semi 32000 family, later developed the Personal Mainframe Series 8000 using an 88k chipset, and eventually did it again with SPARC. We had one of these 88k boards in a Compaq DeskPro on a researcher's desk in 1991 and he was quite pleased with it. If one of these 32k or 88k systems/boards should need a new home, feel free to give me a shout. ;^) /Los links!!/ - All of the following shortened links go to Google Books. Initial announcement in InfoWorld, February 1989: http://tinyurl.com/opus8000 A few more details, October 1989: http://tinyurl.com/opus8000-2 Opus' 32332-based Series 200 announcement: http://tinyurl.com/opus200 --S. From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Wed Jul 14 19:08:33 2010 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2010 20:08:33 -0400 Subject: RTEM-11 In-Reply-To: <4C3E01B0.804@softjar.se> References: <4C3E01B0.804@softjar.se> Message-ID: <4C3E5181.1040807@compsys.to> >Johnny Billquist wrote: > >Ethan Dicks wrote: > >> >On 7/14/10, Jerome H. Fine wrote: >> >>> In addition, does anyone know of any systems currently running >>> which support RTEM-11 features which allow RT-11 programs >>> to run in that environment? My assumption is that VMS on a VAX >>> supported RTEM-11 at some point, but perhaps (if I am correct) >>> the RTEM-11 support was not continued with >>> more recent versions of VMS on the VAX and most definitely VMS on the >>> Alpha. Can anyone comment on these questions? >> >> Based on the vague reference at >> http://s-and-b.net/help?key=RTEM~Release_notes&title=VMS Help&referer= >> and what I know of VMS and DEC hardware, I'd think that RTEM-11 would >> require a VAX processor with "compatibility mode", i.e., a "VAX-11" >> processor. The primary models would be the 11/78x, 11/750, 11/730 and >> 11/725 (I don't recall if the VAX 86xx still had "compatibility mode" >> or not, but it should be easy to check). MicroVAXen and such did not >> have it, and Alpha processors certainly did not have it. >> >> That being said, I have no experience with RTEM-11, but I would be >> surprised to learn it ran on a machine made after about 1986 or so. > > RTEM might be something else than RTEM-11, which was a software > product for RSX. Just google for RTEM-11, and you'll find some > references for it. > > However, I wonder about RTEM for VAX. It's certainly possible, but I > can't find any other reference to it, and DEC's old SPDs, especially > those with software version compatiblity matrixes, are usually pretty > good as a way of finding out what software existed. > > As for PDP-11 compatibility in VAXen, yes, the 86x0 machines have > that. Those were the last, however. > > For all other VAXen running VMS, if you wanted to run RSX software, > you needed a PDP-11 emulator product for VMS, which was available, in > addition to the RSX additions for VMS, which was also a separate > product. That thing was supported up until fairly recently, though. > But again, that's for RSX stuff... I suspect that the most likely possibility is that RTEM and RTEM-11 are used. In addition, I also suspect that both Johnny and Ethan are correct in that RTEM was supported under both RSX and VMS on an older VAX which allowed compatibility mode. I don''t know if Megan Gentry is still around or perhaps Allison or one of the other DEC fellows. Perhaps they might at least know something about which hardware and operating system(s) supported RTEM? In addition, RSTS/E also supported RT-11 programs via the SWITCH RT11 capability. However, only the RT-11 EMTs which are used by a SJ are supported by RSTS/E. At least there is quite reasonable documentation as well as the ability to test and actually run RT-11 programs under RSTS/E up to the latest versions of RSTS/E. RT-11 EMTs for mapped RT-11 monitors (RT11XM) are not supported not are multi-terminal EMTs. Also, probably the latest RT-11 EMTs for file status information are also not supported under RSTS/E. Probably in the same manner as RSTS/E, if RTEM is supported under VMS on an older VAX, the most likely only the RT-11 EMTs which are used by a SJ are supported. Jerome Fine From lynchaj at yahoo.com Wed Jul 14 21:34:59 2010 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2010 22:34:59 -0400 Subject: 68K ISA project Message-ID: Thanks for the interesting replies. If anyone is interested in an N8VEM 68K project please contact me. Basically this would be a simple 68K system for a simple bus like ECB, S-100, or ECB. Nothing fancy or complex just 2 layer boards, all DIP construction, common parts, nothing programmable other than an EPROM. I am thinking just CPU, RAM, ROM, and a dual latch to communicate with the main board CPU but am open to other ideas. I'll continue researching and hopefully something will turn up. If any of our German/European colleagues have access to the PC Par 68000 article in "mc" from 1989 and would be willing to scan I would greatly appreciate it as it seems to be the most practical solution at the moment. Thanks and have a nice day! Andrew Lynch From dkelvey at hotmail.com Wed Jul 14 22:11:00 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2010 20:11:00 -0700 Subject: blowing PAL fuses In-Reply-To: References: <20100623091737.7f0c7021.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>, ,,<4C224DE8.7000109@neurotica.com>, ,,<178A8B709B8744A98D44F39912045EF0@dell8300>, ,,<4C225181.2090002@neurotica.com>,<4C22533F.1040902@neurotica.com>, ,,, ,,, ,,<4C24EBC0.5070508@gmail.com>, , , , , , Message-ID: Hi OK, now one seems to know. How about anyone with a JEDEC file for any of the 16L8, 16R4 or 16R8 chips? I could look at that and find how it was handled. Thanks Dwight > From: dkelvey at hotmail.com > > > Hi > > I'm creating a JEDEC file to blow a 16R4. I have a question. > > On a row that isn't used, is it better to blow all but two of > > the fuses or not blow any? > > Which is better from a power point of view? > > If one leave just two fuses not blown, is it better to > > change which columns across the lines or to just use > > a single column pair? > > Dwight > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Hotmail is redefining busy with tools for the New Busy. Get more from your inbox. > http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_2 _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail has tools for the New Busy. Search, chat and e-mail from your inbox. http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_1 From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jul 14 23:14:44 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2010 21:14:44 -0700 Subject: blowing PAL fuses In-Reply-To: References: <20100623091737.7f0c7021.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>, , Message-ID: <4C3E28C4.5010.3521333@cclist.sydex.com> On 14 Jul 2010 at 20:11, dwight elvey wrote: > OK, now one seems to know. How about anyone with a > > JEDEC file for any of the 16L8, 16R4 or 16R8 chips? > > I could look at that and find how it was handled. I wonder if you could run a sample through PALASM and see what the output looked like. I think I've read somewhere that blowing unused fuses can have a beneficial effect on speed, but I'm not aware of hearing anything about power--I'd assume that if it was a consideration, you'd just use a low-power PAL/GAL/whatever. --Chuck From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Jul 15 01:47:51 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2010 23:47:51 -0700 Subject: blowing PAL fuses In-Reply-To: References: <20100623091737.7f0c7021.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>, , <4C224DE8.7000109@neurotica.com>, , <178A8B709B8744A98D44F39912045EF0@dell8300>, , <4C225181.2090002@neurotica.com> <4C22533F.1040902@neurotica.com>, , , , , , <4C24EBC0.5070508@gmail.com>, , , Message-ID: <4C3EAF17.2020005@brouhaha.com> dwight elvey wrote: > I'm creating a JEDEC file to blow a 16R4. I have a question. > On a row that isn't used, is it better to blow all but two of > the fuses or not blow any? > It sounds like you're not using PALASM, but I'd recommend looking at what PALASM does, and then doing the same thing. > Which is better from a power point of view? > I don't think there's any difference (for an actual bipolar PAL), but I suppose I wouldn't bet money on it without giving it a try. Eric From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Jul 15 01:49:22 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2010 23:49:22 -0700 Subject: 68K ISA project In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C3EAF72.2000006@brouhaha.com> Tony Duell wrote: > The 9000/200 machines that I've worked on are very solid (and you'd > expect from HP), you can run either HP technical BASIC (which does allow > you to run short machine code routines), or Pascal (which is based on > UCSD Pascal, and IIRC includes an assembler) > I thought those ran Rocky Mountain BASIC, which was not the same thing as Technical BASIC. However, I'm no expert on the 9000 series, so perhaps I'm wrong. Eric From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Jul 15 02:03:14 2010 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2010 01:03:14 -0600 Subject: blowing PAL fuses In-Reply-To: <4C3EAF17.2020005@brouhaha.com> References: <20100623091737.7f0c7021.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>, , <4C224DE8.7000109@neurotica.com>, , <178A8B709B8744A98D44F39912045EF0@dell8300>, , <4C225181.2090002@neurotica.com> <4C22533F.1040902@neurotica.com>, , , , , , <4C24EBC0.5070508@gmail.com>, , , <4C3EAF17.2020005@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4C3EB2B2.9010106@jetnet.ab.ca> Eric Smith wrote: > dwight elvey wrote: >> I'm creating a JEDEC file to blow a 16R4. I have a question. >> On a row that isn't used, is it better to blow all but two of >> the fuses or not blow any? > It sounds like you're not using PALASM, but I'd recommend looking at > what PALASM does, and then doing the same thing. I thought for the original MMI PAL's you just blew a fuse, where you needed a link made. One could just mark out from the PAL pin out the fuses needed to be blown, with out having to use software and convert that to a 512x8 ROM mapping. >> Which is better from a power point of view? > I don't think there's any difference (for an actual bipolar PAL), but I > suppose I wouldn't bet money on it without giving it a try. > > Eric Ben. From jonas at otter.se Thu Jul 15 05:07:41 2010 From: jonas at otter.se (Jonas Otter) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2010 12:07:41 +0200 Subject: regarding Datamaster's and such (Shannon Spurling) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <000601cb2405$908060c0$b1812240$@se> It is mentioned on IBM's site: http://www-03.ibm.com/ibm/history/exhibits/pc/pc_9.html It talks to CICS: http://publib.boulder.ibm.com/infocenter/cicsts/v2r3/index.jsp?topic=/com.ib m.cics.ts23.doc/dfha4/dfha47e.htm They were made in Italy in 1983: http://www-03.ibm.com/ibm/history/exhibits/italy/italy_ch3.html and in Boca Raton: http://www-03.ibm.com/ibm/history/exhibits/vintage/vintage_4506VV8004.html It is also mentioned here as having been introduced in 1981: http://www-03.ibm.com/ibm/history/documents/pdf/1970-1984.pdf Flickr photo here from VCF: http://www.flickr.com/photos/mwichary/2282600489/ Old commercial: http://www.retrojunk.com/details_commercial/17275/ Advertisement: http://books.google.com/books?id=aWxr0DFnO5gC&pg=PA33&lpg=PA33&dq=%2Bibm+%2B datamaster&source=bl&ots=QF3pu63OnI&sig=Vm75Apq8RaAUdfrCAdgQYhbGIfs&hl=sv&ei =Wtk-TLOMFseHOIum9bcH&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=9&ved=0CEUQ6AEwCD gK#v=onepage&q=%2Bibm%20%2Bdatamaster&f=false Other paper: http://www.angelfire.com/ms/cis/CIS29.System23.01.html Article from BYTE by one of the designers: http://www.krsaborio.net/ibm/research/1990/09.htm Reminiscences from another person involved in the project: http://www.chessin.com/paul/aftermath.html >From InfoWorld 1981: http://books.google.com/books?id=Mj0EAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA15&lpg=PA15&dq=%2Bibm+%2B datamaster&source=bl&ots=eOE4r_uCBs&sig=wdPGLs30043Rbs-6RtCAip8ZEVg&hl=sv&ei =I9s-TP-sJoOeOOa8ra8H&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CBkQ6AEwAT go#v=onepage&q=%2Bibm%20%2Bdatamaster&f=false Not very helpful if you want to get it running I am afraid, but at least some background info. /Jonas > Not even on wiki's or classic computer directories that I could find > talking about the Datamaster system. Usually they just say that an all > in one predecessor of the PC called the Datamaster or System/23 was > released months before the PC release date. I can't even find pictures > of the 5324 unit, which is what I have. Just wish I could get this > thing > to boot. I think I may have corroded connections or something. > From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Thu Jul 15 07:50:27 2010 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2010 14:50:27 +0200 Subject: 68K ISA project In-Reply-To: <4C3EAF72.2000006@brouhaha.com> References: <4C3EAF72.2000006@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Namens Eric Smith > Verzonden: donderdag 15 juli 2010 8:49 > Aan: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Onderwerp: Re: 68K ISA project > > Tony Duell wrote: > > The 9000/200 machines that I've worked on are very solid (and you'd > > expect from HP), you can run either HP technical BASIC (which does > > allow you to run short machine code routines), or Pascal (which is > > based on UCSD Pascal, and IIRC includes an assembler) > > > I thought those ran Rocky Mountain BASIC, which was not the > same thing as Technical BASIC. However, I'm no expert on the > 9000 series, so perhaps I'm wrong. > > Eric > The 9000 / 200 and 300 series run RMB, but it's very technical and structured. The PC DOS/Win version is called HP Instrument Basic and later on it becomes HTBasic but by then it's owned by Transera. If I remember correct technical basic was for the HP 2000/1000 series. -Rik From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Jul 15 11:20:48 2010 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2010 09:20:48 -0700 Subject: HP Technical BASIC (was Re: 68K ISA project) In-Reply-To: References: <4C3EAF72.2000006@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4C3F3560.5050304@bitsavers.org> On 7/15/10 5:50 AM, Rik Bos wrote: > If I remember correct technical basic was for the HP 2000/1000 series. > Technical BASIC came out of Corvallis, eventually moving to Fort Collins. There are documents on it for the Integral and 9000 series on bitsavers. The 2000 TSB was a VERY different thing, predating both of them. I just found a product announcement from Computer Design for the 2000A system from June, 1968. There are several other BASICs for the 2100 series as well, user written and HP written. From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Thu Jul 15 12:08:21 2010 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2010 19:08:21 +0200 Subject: 68K (ISA) project In-Reply-To: <392492.32548.qm@web65502.mail.ac4.yahoo.com><4C3C161B.9080009@jetnet.ab.ca> <4C3E1DC7.9030806@thebackend.de> References: <392492.32548.qm@web65502.mail.ac4.yahoo.com><4C3C161B.9080009@jetnet.ab.ca> <4C3E1DC7.9030806@thebackend.de> Message-ID: From: "Sebastian Brueckner" Sent: Wednesday, July 14, 2010 10:27 PM To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: 68K (ISA) project > On 14.07.10 19:59, Henk Gooijen wrote: >> >> Jup. I was indeed thinking of byte-wide SRAM and EPROM (27512). >> To keep things simple (and code efficient / fast) the EPROM will sit >> in $FFFF0000-$FFFFFFFF (you need some ROM there for the reset >> vector) and the RAM sits at $00000000-$0000FFFF. If you know the >> 68000, those 2 regions are "zero page" and references are shorter >> which means less code bytes and less clock cycles. > > I thought all interrupt vectors started from address 0. What do you need > A23 and the high addresses for? Yes, I stand corrected. The 6800-6809 have the reset and interrupt vectors at the high end from $FFFF downward. The 68000 fetches reset and stackpointer from $00000000. > I've read about designs that map ROM to $00 on boot to load stack pointer > etc. and remap to RAM later on to allow the user program to modify the > interrupt vectors. ROM from $00000000 is handy as the reset vector must be there. Remapping to RAM was done by copying the EPROM into RAM, because in those days EPROM was slower than RAM. Running code from RAM was simply faster, if the hardware design permitted it. > How do I know then to remap the memory? I'd imagine it's done by the > monitor program, but I seem to recall that it was a hardware-only > solution. Have to find the article (German c't magazine's "Kat-CE" I think > it is). Yes, the copy and transition to RAM was done by the monitor software. (AFAIK) > Also, are there any grave disadvantages in leaving the ROM at address $00 > and using a jump table in RAM for the interrupts? I am not sure if I understand correctly. ROM at $0 means either that all vectors are fixed (which is OK for a finished design where everything is determined), or the ROM has vectors to a pre-assigned area in RAM where JMP's are to the actual routine. The latter adds flexibility at the cost of some 10 cycles. > I am getting more and more tempted to try and built my own 68k SBC. Being > born in '84 it seems I missed out on all the interesting computers... > > Sebastian Building an SBC (for any "old" processor) is not too difficult ... the question is *what* are you planning to do with it? Do you have a purpose? Building just for the "building" is not very long lasting ... - Henk. From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Thu Jul 15 12:32:03 2010 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2010 19:32:03 +0200 Subject: 68K ISA project In-Reply-To: <392492.32548.qm@web65502.mail.ac4.yahoo.com><4C3C161B.9080009@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <392492.32548.qm@web65502.mail.ac4.yahoo.com><4C3C161B.9080009@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: From: "Ethan Dicks" Sent: Wednesday, July 14, 2010 8:19 PM To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: 68K ISA project > On 7/14/10, Henk Gooijen wrote: >> From: "Ethan Dicks" >>> I don't recall seeing anything in a DIP package badged faster than >>> 12.5MHz... (68EC000?) >> >> The 68000 DIL package is an impressive chip (taking a lot of PCB space). > > It's more impressive covered in logic prove leads. [...snip...] I have a clip that you can "clamp" on the DIL package. I clamp the small clips up to 24 pins or so with one hand, but the 64-pin clip needs both hands, because of the three springs to clamp the clip firmly on the chip! >> To keep things simple (and code efficient / fast) the EPROM will sit >> in $FFFF0000-$FFFFFFFF (you need some ROM there for the reset >> vector) > > ISTR the reset vector is low - there's a fiddly circuit in the Amiga > for that, and we had our own "BOOT BIT" that got hammered to migrate > the ROM from low to high. I think the "modern" technique is to mirror > ROM at $0 and $FFnnnnnn and have a circuit that monitors A23 - as soon > ass A23 goes high, clobber the ROM mirror at $0 and open it up to RAM. > >> and the RAM sits at $00000000-$0000FFFF. If you know the >> 68000, those 2 regions are "zero page" and references are shorter >> which means less code bytes and less clock cycles. I guess the ECC in my brain fails :-) Indeed, reset and all other vectors are in the low range, opposite to the "old" 8- bit Motorola chips. IIRC, the 8080 and 8085 already had the reset vector at 0. >> EPROM and RAM at 100ns or 70 ns is easy to get. As everything goes >> on one single Euro card, there is no need for address or data buffers. > > Indeed, though I think even our single-board COMBOARD had address > buffers - dunno if that'd still be necessary with 6-8 modern chips on > the bus. We had two EPROMs, a DRAM chip, some internal logic for > Unibus or Qbus DMA, and 2-3 I/O peripherals (Z8530, MC6821, etc). I'd > prepare for the possibility that you'd need to have a couple of '245s > there, but for a prototype, you could jumper across the '245 pins and > see how the address lines hold up. Good idea. Will cost a few 20-pin DIL packages space on the board though. It's hard to add buffers later after you wire wrapped or soldered wires. 16 for databus and 14 or so for address bus. Address lines 14 and up are mostly for the address decode logic, so they go to 1 or 2 input pins. >>> Something that might be an interesting alternative to a VT220 might be >>> an HD44780-type textual LCD... >> >> Nice!! >> I will give this some thought ... you could connect the LCD via a >> parallel >> interface directly to the 68000 board and let the 68000 do the >> addressing. > > Yes. Trivially (2-3 address bits and 8 data bits and perhaps 2 gates > more than the upper address select logic. Ahhh, you connect the LCD directly to the address and databus of the 68000. I was thinking of wiring the LCD to pins of the PIA. I am not sure whether the LCD would be fast enough to connect directly to the 68000 busses. >> 4x40 would leave room for a (debug) output text line, and you could >> implement on the bottom row a "soft key" text line. Just beneath the >> LCD are a few rectangular push buttons. Its meaning depends on the >> state and is indicated on that 4th line of the display. > > Interesting idea - I think that would be cool. Just need a use for this setup :-) The rest is assembler (which I like). > 2x40 displays are much cheaper than 4x40 displays, though. I've > picked them up attached to Satellite TV receiver front panels (with > LEDs and pushbuttons and software-controllable contrast) from > companies like BG Micro for as little as $8. For a bit more, you can > get 2x40 VFDs that you could see across the room. The only thing that > isn't immediately apparent to me is the switch-to-switch dimension to > line up switches with the display bits (if you wanted to do that sort > of thing - even simulated lights with just a "boot" switch would be > interesting to watch as the machine ran through its paces). I will check the local auction sites. I have seen LCDs which lite up blue and white if I am not mistaken). A few buttons underneath the LCD is easy, but if you want to implement a switch register plus the other switches (LOAD, CONT, DEP etc.) the would be quite small. Do you have a pencil sharper for your finger tips? :-) > > Cheers, > > -ethan - Henk. From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jul 15 12:38:21 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2010 10:38:21 -0700 Subject: 68K (ISA) project In-Reply-To: References: <392492.32548.qm@web65502.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>, Message-ID: <4C3EE51D.3796.7ED4EE@cclist.sydex.com> On 15 Jul 2010 at 19:08, Henk Gooijen wrote: > Building an SBC (for any "old" processor) is not too difficult ... the > question is *what* are you planning to do with it? Do you have a > purpose? Building just for the "building" is not very long lasting ... If I wanted to explore the 68K instruction set and architecture, I'd probably take the shortcut of using a Coldfire MCU--or even an evaluation board if I could find one reasonably priced. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jul 15 12:40:52 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2010 10:40:52 -0700 Subject: 68K ISA project In-Reply-To: References: <392492.32548.qm@web65502.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>, Message-ID: <4C3EE5B4.31323.8121BD@cclist.sydex.com> On 15 Jul 2010 at 19:32, Henk Gooijen wrote: > I will check the local auction sites. I have seen LCDs which lite up > blue and white if I am not mistaken). A few buttons underneath the LCD > is easy, but if you want to implement a switch register plus the other > switches (LOAD, CONT, DEP etc.) the would be quite small. Do you have > a pencil sharper for your finger tips? :-) One of the recent uC eval kits features a small OLED graphics display. I haven't the faintest idea who sourced it, but I was surprised to see it on an eval board. --Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Jul 15 12:59:29 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2010 13:59:29 -0400 Subject: 68K ISA project In-Reply-To: <4C3EE5B4.31323.8121BD@cclist.sydex.com> References: <392492.32548.qm@web65502.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>, <4C3EE5B4.31323.8121BD@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4C3F4C81.7050303@neurotica.com> On 7/15/10 1:40 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> I will check the local auction sites. I have seen LCDs which lite up >> blue and white if I am not mistaken). A few buttons underneath the LCD >> is easy, but if you want to implement a switch register plus the other >> switches (LOAD, CONT, DEP etc.) the would be quite small. Do you have >> a pencil sharper for your finger tips? :-) > > One of the recent uC eval kits features a small OLED graphics > display. I haven't the faintest idea who sourced it, but I was > surprised to see it on an eval board. Lots and lots of eval and dev boards come with displays nowadays. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jul 15 13:11:39 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2010 11:11:39 -0700 Subject: 68K ISA project In-Reply-To: <4C3F4C81.7050303@neurotica.com> References: <392492.32548.qm@web65502.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>, <4C3EE5B4.31323.8121BD@cclist.sydex.com>, <4C3F4C81.7050303@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4C3EECEB.28807.9D50B4@cclist.sydex.com> On 15 Jul 2010 at 13:59, Dave McGuire wrote: > Lots and lots of eval and dev boards come with displays nowadays. Yup, but by and large, they're LCD. It was the OLED that surprised me. Shades of the Sony XEL... --Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Jul 15 13:20:01 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2010 14:20:01 -0400 Subject: 68K ISA project In-Reply-To: <4C3EECEB.28807.9D50B4@cclist.sydex.com> References: <392492.32548.qm@web65502.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>, <4C3EE5B4.31323.8121BD@cclist.sydex.com>, <4C3F4C81.7050303@neurotica.com> <4C3EECEB.28807.9D50B4@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4C3F5151.5000805@neurotica.com> On 7/15/10 2:11 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> Lots and lots of eval and dev boards come with displays nowadays. > > Yup, but by and large, they're LCD. It was the OLED that surprised > me. Shades of the Sony XEL... There are a few ARM boards with OLED; I think some of the Olimex boards. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From evan at snarc.net Thu Jul 15 14:18:39 2010 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2010 15:18:39 -0400 Subject: HOPE this weekend Message-ID: <4C3F5F0F.1010107@snarc.net> Hi all -- If anyone's going to HOPE in NYC this weekend (who isn't already on the MARCH mailing list), here are some on-topic things to see and do: MARCH will have a demo booth Saturday from approx. 10am - night. And there are many on-topic lectures, including mine/Bill Degnan's: Friday: Get Lamp Screening and Discussion (Friday, 11pm, Tesla Room -- by friend-o'-MARCH Jason Scott) Introduction to the Chip Scene: Low Bit Music and Visuals (Friday, 11pm, Lovelace Room -- same guys who played VCF East 6.0.) Saturday: T+40: The Three Greatest Hacks of Apollo (Saturday, 10am, Lovelace Room) Vintage Computing -- Evan/Bill (Saturday, noon, Lovelace Room) The Telephone Pioneers of America (Saturday, 8pm, Bell Room) 2600 Meetings: Yesterday, Today, and Tomorrow (Saturday, 10pm, Lovelace Room) Sunday: Cats and Mice: The Phone Company, the FBI, and the Phone Phreaks (Sunday, noon, Tesla Room) Simpsons Already Did It - Where Do You Think the Name "Trojan" Came From Anyway? (Sunday, noon, Lovelace Room) American Bombe: How the U.S. Shattered the Enigma Code (Sunday, 1pm, Lovelace Room) From jplist2008 at kiwigeek.com Thu Jul 15 14:28:59 2010 From: jplist2008 at kiwigeek.com (JP Hindin) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2010 14:28:59 -0500 (CDT) Subject: HOPE this weekend In-Reply-To: <4C3F5F0F.1010107@snarc.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 15 Jul 2010, Evan Koblentz wrote: > American Bombe: How the U.S. Shattered the Enigma Code (Sunday, 1pm, > Lovelace Room) I'm out in the midwest, so there's no chance of going to this - but I'd be curious to see the above. Any chance anyone is filming these things? - JP From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jul 15 14:07:05 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2010 20:07:05 +0100 (BST) Subject: 68K ISA project In-Reply-To: <4C3EAF72.2000006@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at Jul 14, 10 11:49:22 pm Message-ID: > > Tony Duell wrote: > > The 9000/200 machines that I've worked on are very solid (and you'd > > expect from HP), you can run either HP technical BASIC (which does allow > > you to run short machine code routines), or Pascal (which is based on > > UCSD Pascal, and IIRC includes an assembler) > > > I thought those ran Rocky Mountain BASIC, which was not the same thing > as Technical BASIC. However, I'm no expert on the 9000 series, so > perhaps I'm wrong. You are probably right. I am (as you know) a hardware person. I understand most of the hardware of the 9000/200 series, I know rather less about the software. And the distribution disks (HP originals) i've just looekd at simply say 'HP BASIC' on them. Can you enlighten me as to what 'Techncial BASIC' and 'Rocky Mountain BASIC' really are? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jul 15 14:27:46 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2010 20:27:46 +0100 (BST) Subject: 68K ISA project In-Reply-To: from "Rik Bos" at Jul 15, 10 02:50:27 pm Message-ID: > > > The 9000/200 machines that I've worked on are very solid (and you'd > > > expect from HP), you can run either HP technical BASIC (which does > > > allow you to run short machine code routines), or Pascal (which is > > > based on UCSD Pascal, and IIRC includes an assembler) > > > > > I thought those ran Rocky Mountain BASIC, which was not the > > same thing as Technical BASIC. However, I'm no expert on the > > 9000 series, so perhaps I'm wrong. > > > > Eric > > > > The 9000 / 200 and 300 series run RMB, but it's very technical and > structured. OK, right, thanks... It's one of the nicest BASICs I know (Acorn's BBC BASIC and Microware's BASIC09 are also nice :-)), in that it is very well structured.. Have you realised how to do PEEK, POKE and CALL yet? It's not obvious, but it is in the manuals... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jul 15 14:31:43 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2010 20:31:43 +0100 (BST) Subject: HP Technical BASIC (was Re: 68K ISA project) In-Reply-To: <4C3F3560.5050304@bitsavers.org> from "Al Kossow" at Jul 15, 10 09:20:48 am Message-ID: > > On 7/15/10 5:50 AM, Rik Bos wrote: > > > If I remember correct technical basic was for the HP 2000/1000 series. > > > > Technical BASIC came out of Corvallis, eventually moving to Fort Collins. > There are documents on it for the Integral and 9000 series on bitsavers. So are you saying that the standard 'HP BASIC' for the 9000/200 series is 'trehcnical BASIC'? Or is 'techincal BASIC' so other product? -tony From evan at snarc.net Thu Jul 15 14:52:30 2010 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2010 15:52:30 -0400 Subject: HOPE this weekend In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C3F66FE.3090501@snarc.net> >> American Bombe: How the U.S. Shattered the Enigma Code (Sunday, 1pm, Lovelace Room) > I'm out in the midwest, so there's no chance of going to this - but I'd be curious to see the above. Any chance anyone is filming these things? I don't know. Go to www.thenexthope.org and inquire there. PS -- our MARCH booth will have some special guests -- Crunch is stopping by, and David Ahl might come, too. From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jul 15 15:29:03 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2010 13:29:03 -0700 Subject: 68K ISA project In-Reply-To: <4C3F5151.5000805@neurotica.com> References: <392492.32548.qm@web65502.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>, <4C3EECEB.28807.9D50B4@cclist.sydex.com>, <4C3F5151.5000805@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4C3F0D1F.27317.11B1D99@cclist.sydex.com> On 15 Jul 2010 at 14:20, Dave McGuire wrote: > There are a few ARM boards with OLED; I think some of the Olimex > boards. Luminary makes an ARM eval board with a tiny 96x16 OLED display-- about the size of a 0.300" DIP. On the other hand, Domaintech offers an Actel FPGA board with a very spiffy OLED display: http://www.domaintec.com/A3P-OLED.html But heck, they're integrating the things into pushbutton switches now: http://www.nkksmartswitch.com/products/oled.asp Cheers, Chcuk From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Jul 15 15:36:53 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2010 16:36:53 -0400 Subject: 68K ISA project In-Reply-To: <4C3F0D1F.27317.11B1D99@cclist.sydex.com> References: <392492.32548.qm@web65502.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>, <4C3EECEB.28807.9D50B4@cclist.sydex.com>, <4C3F5151.5000805@neurotica.com> <4C3F0D1F.27317.11B1D99@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4C3F7165.4090301@neurotica.com> On 7/15/10 4:29 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Luminary makes an ARM eval board with a tiny 96x16 OLED display-- > about the size of a 0.300" DIP. On the other hand, Domaintech > offers an Actel FPGA board with a very spiffy OLED display: > > http://www.domaintec.com/A3P-OLED.html Nice! > But heck, they're integrating the things into pushbutton switches > now: > > http://www.nkksmartswitch.com/products/oled.asp Yeah I've been drooling over those for a couple o fyears. Very tasty indeed. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Jul 15 16:31:55 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2010 14:31:55 -0700 Subject: 68K ISA project In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C3F7E4B.4030308@brouhaha.com> On 07/15/2010 12:07 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > Can you enlighten me as to what 'Techncial BASIC' and 'Rocky Mountain > BASIC' really are? > Rocky Mountain BASIC is what evolved from the 9830, 9835, 9845, etc. It ran on the 9000/200 and 9000/300 non-HP-UX systems. On the 9000 HP-UX systems it was called "BASIC/UX". Some versions that ran on the PC or inside instruments were called "Instrument BASIC". Technical BASIC is what evolved from the 83/85/9905, 86/87, 75, etc. It was first called Technical BASIC on the 9807A Integral, but later was available for HP-UX on other 9000 systems. There were enough differences between the two that many customers complained about the lack of Rocky Mountain BASIC for the Integral. From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Jul 15 16:34:59 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2010 14:34:59 -0700 Subject: 68K ISA project In-Reply-To: <4C3F7165.4090301@neurotica.com> References: <392492.32548.qm@web65502.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>, <4C3EECEB.28807.9D50B4@cclist.sydex.com>, <4C3F5151.5000805@neurotica.com> <4C3F0D1F.27317.11B1D99@cclist.sydex.com> <4C3F7165.4090301@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4C3F7F03.6070909@brouhaha.com> On 07/15/2010 01:36 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 7/15/10 4:29 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > >> But heck, they're integrating the things into pushbutton switches >> now: >> >> http://www.nkksmartswitch.com/products/oled.asp >> > Yeah I've been drooling over those for a couple o fyears. Very tasty > indeed. > My friends at Wohler are using those OLED switches in a video switcher application, so each input selection button actually shows a thumbnail of the live video. They've demoed it at trade shows but I'm not sure whether they're shipping the product yet. From sb at thebackend.de Thu Jul 15 16:49:53 2010 From: sb at thebackend.de (Sebastian Brueckner) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2010 23:49:53 +0200 Subject: 68K (ISA) project In-Reply-To: <4C3EE51D.3796.7ED4EE@cclist.sydex.com> References: <392492.32548.qm@web65502.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>, <4C3EE51D.3796.7ED4EE@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4C3F8281.2080004@thebackend.de> On 15.07.10 19:38, Chuck Guzis wrote: > If I wanted to explore the 68K instruction set and architecture, I'd > probably take the shortcut of using a Coldfire MCU--or even an > evaluation board if I could find one reasonably priced. Well, I suppose for just learning the instruction set that's the most logical way to go. But then I could just as well use a simulator. I am even more interested in the hardware than in the software though. I even enjoy designing all the glue, address decoding, DTACK generation etc. You don't get to do that nowadays with all the AVR, ARM7 and other modern chips :-) Sebastian From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Jul 15 17:06:42 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2010 15:06:42 -0700 Subject: 68K ISA project In-Reply-To: References: <4C3EAF72.2000006@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4C3F8672.9050209@brouhaha.com> Rik Bos wrote: > If I remember correct technical basic was for the HP 2000/1000 series. > No. 2000 ran TSB ("Time-Shared BASIC"). The 1000 ran "RTE-B" or "BASIC/1000". There were multiple different BASICs for the 2116/2100/21MX families, and which could also run on a 1000, but those weren't Technical BASIC either. The 3000 ran "BASIC/3000" or "BASIC/XL". A friend who worked at HP once tried to count all of the different BASIC dialects HP had used on various products, and found more than 20. Eric From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Jul 15 17:07:34 2010 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2010 15:07:34 -0700 Subject: Beware of Chris W Tucker ( Low End Mac mailing list seller) Message-ID: <4C3F86A6.6000805@bitsavers.org> Chris W Tucker jetrigger at gmail.com never shipped two powerbooks (about $500 worth) I'd complain on the LEM feedback list, but it doesn't work and they won't accept any comments on the main mailing list lemswap at googlegroups.com From dkelvey at hotmail.com Thu Jul 15 18:00:33 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2010 16:00:33 -0700 Subject: blowing PAL fuses In-Reply-To: <4C3EAF17.2020005@brouhaha.com> References: <20100623091737.7f0c7021.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>, ,,<4C224DE8.7000109@neurotica.com>, ,,<178A8B709B8744A98D44F39912045EF0@dell8300>, , , <4C225181.2090002@neurotica.com> <4C22533F.1040902@neurotica.com>, , , ,,, ,,, <4C24EBC0.5070508@gmail.com>, , , , , , , <4C3EAF17.2020005@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: Hi I've done a bunch of research and I find that most compiler output seems to just use the F0*. Which means that the fuses are left intact in the unused rows. The way they are suppose to work by several sources seems to indicate that this is not the desired thing to do for power or speed. I did see one that just left fuses connected that we just in 3 of the column pairs towards the middle of the array. For power, I'd guess that blowing as many fuses as one can would be best. For speed, I suspect it has little effect because the lines are actually isolated by a transistor in the arrays. Since I am creating my own JEDEC file, I will just blow as many as I can and not use the F0*. I suspect that newer parts may recognize that the row is unused and simply power it down. I doubt this is true for older devices. When I finally get around to blowing some, I may do both and compare the current used. It only takes a second to create either JEDEC file. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail is redefining busy with tools for the New Busy. Get more from your inbox. http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_2 From als at thangorodrim.de Thu Jul 15 18:39:11 2010 From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2010 01:39:11 +0200 Subject: 68K ISA project In-Reply-To: <4C3F0D1F.27317.11B1D99@cclist.sydex.com> References: <392492.32548.qm@web65502.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <4C3EECEB.28807.9D50B4@cclist.sydex.com> <4C3F5151.5000805@neurotica.com> <4C3F0D1F.27317.11B1D99@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20100715233911.GA4038@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> On Thu, Jul 15, 2010 at 01:29:03PM -0700, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 15 Jul 2010 at 14:20, Dave McGuire wrote: > > > > There are a few ARM boards with OLED; I think some of the Olimex > > boards. > > Luminary makes an ARM eval board with a tiny 96x16 OLED display-- > about the size of a 0.300" DIP. On the other hand, Domaintech > offers an Actel FPGA board with a very spiffy OLED display: > > http://www.domaintec.com/A3P-OLED.html > > But heck, they're integrating the things into pushbutton switches > now: > > http://www.nkksmartswitch.com/products/oled.asp And should you feel the weight of too much disposable income, Art Lebedev is happy to sell you the Optimus Maximus keyboard: every key has an OLED display on it. For the bargain price of USD 2400 ... http://www.artlebedev.com/everything/optimus/ droolworthy: oh yes worth the money: you've got to be kidding ... Regards, Alex. -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jul 15 19:11:38 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2010 17:11:38 -0700 Subject: 68K ISA project In-Reply-To: <20100715233911.GA4038@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> References: <392492.32548.qm@web65502.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>, <4C3F0D1F.27317.11B1D99@cclist.sydex.com>, <20100715233911.GA4038@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> Message-ID: <4C3F414A.19649.1E6E5B0@cclist.sydex.com> On 16 Jul 2010 at 1:39, Alexander Schreiber wrote: > And should you feel the weight of too much disposable income, Art > Lebedev is happy to sell you the Optimus Maximus keyboard: every key > has an OLED display on it. For the bargain price of USD 2400 ... > > http://www.artlebedev.com/everything/optimus/ > > droolworthy: oh yes > worth the money: you've got to be kidding ... Hey, good news! The weakened ruble now means the price is USD$1973.50! (according to xe.com). Best to stock up on them at this price. Can you imagine what fun a virus writer would have with this thing? --Chuck From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Jul 15 20:15:22 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2010 21:15:22 -0400 Subject: 68K ISA project In-Reply-To: <4C3F414A.19649.1E6E5B0@cclist.sydex.com> References: <392492.32548.qm@web65502.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <4C3F0D1F.27317.11B1D99@cclist.sydex.com> <20100715233911.GA4038@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> <4C3F414A.19649.1E6E5B0@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On 7/15/10, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> http://www.artlebedev.com/everything/optimus/ > > Can you imagine what fun a virus writer would have with this thing? You could be spammed by 113 pr0n sites *simultaneously*! -ethan From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Jul 15 20:44:24 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2010 21:44:24 -0400 Subject: 68K ISA project In-Reply-To: <4C3F7F03.6070909@brouhaha.com> References: <392492.32548.qm@web65502.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>, <4C3EECEB.28807.9D50B4@cclist.sydex.com>, <4C3F5151.5000805@neurotica.com> <4C3F0D1F.27317.11B1D99@cclist.sydex.com> <4C3F7165.4090301@neurotica.com> <4C3F7F03.6070909@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4C3FB978.9010706@neurotica.com> On 7/15/10 5:34 PM, Eric Smith wrote: >>> But heck, they're integrating the things into pushbutton switches >>> now: >>> >>> http://www.nkksmartswitch.com/products/oled.asp >>> >> Yeah I've been drooling over those for a couple o fyears. Very tasty >> indeed. >> > My friends at Wohler are using those OLED switches in a video switcher > application, so each input selection button actually shows a thumbnail > of the live video. They've demoed it at trade shows but I'm not sure > whether they're shipping the product yet. Wow, I bet that's a gorgeous piece of gear, eh? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Jul 15 20:46:21 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2010 18:46:21 -0700 Subject: 68K ISA project In-Reply-To: <20100715233911.GA4038@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> References: <392492.32548.qm@web65502.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <4C3EECEB.28807.9D50B4@cclist.sydex.com> <4C3F5151.5000805@neurotica.com> <4C3F0D1F.27317.11B1D99@cclist.sydex.com> <20100715233911.GA4038@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> Message-ID: <4C3FB9ED.1050300@brouhaha.com> Alexander Schreiber wrote: > And should you feel the weight of too much disposable income, Art > Lebedev is happy to sell you the Optimus Maximus keyboard: every key > has an OLED display on it. For the bargain price of USD 2400 ... > I've never understood the point. The *last* thing I want to look at is my keyboard. Fingers on keyboard, eyes on screen. Eric From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Jul 15 20:50:34 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2010 21:50:34 -0400 Subject: 68K ISA project In-Reply-To: <4C3FB9ED.1050300@brouhaha.com> References: <392492.32548.qm@web65502.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <4C3EECEB.28807.9D50B4@cclist.sydex.com> <4C3F5151.5000805@neurotica.com> <4C3F0D1F.27317.11B1D99@cclist.sydex.com> <20100715233911.GA4038@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> <4C3FB9ED.1050300@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4C3FBAEA.2060108@neurotica.com> On 7/15/10 9:46 PM, Eric Smith wrote: >> And should you feel the weight of too much disposable income, Art >> Lebedev is happy to sell you the Optimus Maximus keyboard: every key >> has an OLED display on it. For the bargain price of USD 2400 ... >> > I've never understood the point. The *last* thing I want to look at is > my keyboard. Fingers on keyboard, eyes on screen. Yeah, me too. But I want one anyway. 8) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Jul 15 21:19:19 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2010 19:19:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 68K ISA project In-Reply-To: from Ethan Dicks at "Jul 15, 10 09:15:22 pm" Message-ID: <201007160219.o6G2JKhG020718@floodgap.com> > > > http://www.artlebedev.com/everything/optimus/ > > > > Can you imagine what fun a virus writer would have with this thing? > > You could be spammed by 113 pr0n sites *simultaneously*! Wow, that *is* something new for your hands to do. ;-) -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- "I'd love to go out with you, but I'm braiding my dental floss." ----------- From lproven at gmail.com Thu Jul 15 21:29:48 2010 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2010 03:29:48 +0100 Subject: 68K ISA project In-Reply-To: <4C3FB9ED.1050300@brouhaha.com> References: <392492.32548.qm@web65502.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <4C3EECEB.28807.9D50B4@cclist.sydex.com> <4C3F5151.5000805@neurotica.com> <4C3F0D1F.27317.11B1D99@cclist.sydex.com> <20100715233911.GA4038@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> <4C3FB9ED.1050300@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On 16 July 2010 02:46, Eric Smith wrote: > Alexander Schreiber wrote: >> >> And should you feel the weight of too much disposable income, Art >> Lebedev is happy to sell you the Optimus Maximus keyboard: every key >> has an OLED display on it. For the bargain price of USD 2400 ... >> > > I've never understood the point. ?The *last* thing I want to look at is my > keyboard. ?Fingers on keyboard, eyes on screen. Perhaps Sir would like the Happy Hacking Keyboard? -- Liam Proven ? Profile & links: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From chd at chdickman.com Thu Jul 15 21:59:01 2010 From: chd at chdickman.com (Charles Dickman) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2010 22:59:01 -0400 Subject: 68K (ISA) project In-Reply-To: <4C3F8281.2080004@thebackend.de> References: <392492.32548.qm@web65502.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <4C3EE51D.3796.7ED4EE@cclist.sydex.com> <4C3F8281.2080004@thebackend.de> Message-ID: On Thu, Jul 15, 2010 at 5:49 PM, Sebastian Brueckner wrote: > > I am even more interested in the hardware than in the software though. I > even enjoy designing all the glue, address decoding, DTACK generation etc. > You don't get to do that nowadays with all the AVR, ARM7 and other modern > chips :-) > > Sebastian > Back in 1999 I had some of the same ambitions, this ( http://www.chdickman.com/sbc/ ) was the result. Like many things, I never followed through with it. I could interface 68k, 6800 and Intel oriented ICs. I think it has all the signals necessary to add an ISA bus. I did save some edge connectors for the purpose. I keep wanting to get it back out and play with it. A monitor listing and the PLD files are online, but not a schematic. I wanted to put out a schematic, but I got the idea that a kid in college was using it for a class project. Actually with PLD files should be enough to figure out the rest for "someone competent in the field." -chuck From teoz at neo.rr.com Thu Jul 15 22:13:37 2010 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2010 23:13:37 -0400 Subject: Beware of Chris W Tucker ( Low End Mac mailing list seller) References: <4C3F86A6.6000805@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: Did you use Paypal? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Al Kossow" To: Sent: Thursday, July 15, 2010 6:07 PM Subject: Beware of Chris W Tucker ( Low End Mac mailing list seller) > Chris W Tucker jetrigger at gmail.com > > never shipped two powerbooks (about $500 worth) > > I'd complain on the LEM feedback list, but it doesn't work > and they won't accept any comments on the main mailing list > lemswap at googlegroups.com > > > From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Jul 15 23:47:06 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2010 21:47:06 -0700 Subject: 68K ISA project In-Reply-To: References: <392492.32548.qm@web65502.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <4C3EECEB.28807.9D50B4@cclist.sydex.com> <4C3F5151.5000805@neurotica.com> <4C3F0D1F.27317.11B1D99@cclist.sydex.com> <20100715233911.GA4038@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> <4C3FB9ED.1050300@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4C3FE44A.1040101@brouhaha.com> I wrote: > I've never understood the point. The *last* thing I want to look at is my > keyboard. Fingers on keyboard, eyes on screen. > Liam Proven wrote: > Perhaps Sir would like the Happy Hacking Keyboard? > Those are nice. As far as key legends go, I like "Das Keyboard Ultimate", though it would be even better if they didn't silkscreen the "Das Keyboard" logo onto it. Eric From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jul 16 00:45:15 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2010 22:45:15 -0700 Subject: 68K ISA project In-Reply-To: References: <392492.32548.qm@web65502.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>, <4C3FB9ED.1050300@brouhaha.com>, Message-ID: <4C3F8F7B.22320.3185622@cclist.sydex.com> On 16 Jul 2010 at 3:29, Liam Proven wrote: > Perhaps Sir would like the Happy Hacking Keyboard? Keyboard? Who needs a keyboard? http://www.pddnet.com/video-mousless-the-invisible-mouse-071210/ Cheers, Chuck From bqt at softjar.se Thu Jul 15 13:01:48 2010 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2010 20:01:48 +0200 Subject: RTEM-11 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C3F4D0C.6030603@softjar.se> "Jerome H. Fine" wrote: > >Johnny Billquist wrote: > >>> > >Ethan Dicks wrote: >> > >>>> >> >On 7/14/10, Jerome H. Fine wrote: >>> >> >>>> >>> In addition, does anyone know of any systems currently running >>>> >>> which support RTEM-11 features which allow RT-11 programs >>>> >>> to run in that environment? My assumption is that VMS on a VAX >>>> >>> supported RTEM-11 at some point, but perhaps (if I am correct) >>>> >>> the RTEM-11 support was not continued with >>>> >>> more recent versions of VMS on the VAX and most definitely VMS on the >>>> >>> Alpha. Can anyone comment on these questions? >>> >> >>> >> Based on the vague reference at >>> >> http://s-and-b.net/help?key=RTEM~Release_notes&title=VMS Help&referer= >>> >> and what I know of VMS and DEC hardware, I'd think that RTEM-11 would >>> >> require a VAX processor with "compatibility mode", i.e., a "VAX-11" >>> >> processor. The primary models would be the 11/78x, 11/750, 11/730 and >>> >> 11/725 (I don't recall if the VAX 86xx still had "compatibility mode" >>> >> or not, but it should be easy to check). MicroVAXen and such did not >>> >> have it, and Alpha processors certainly did not have it. >>> >> >>> >> That being said, I have no experience with RTEM-11, but I would be >>> >> surprised to learn it ran on a machine made after about 1986 or so. >> > >> > RTEM might be something else than RTEM-11, which was a software >> > product for RSX. Just google for RTEM-11, and you'll find some >> > references for it. >> > >> > However, I wonder about RTEM for VAX. It's certainly possible, but I >> > can't find any other reference to it, and DEC's old SPDs, especially >> > those with software version compatiblity matrixes, are usually pretty >> > good as a way of finding out what software existed. >> > >> > As for PDP-11 compatibility in VAXen, yes, the 86x0 machines have >> > that. Those were the last, however. >> > >> > For all other VAXen running VMS, if you wanted to run RSX software, >> > you needed a PDP-11 emulator product for VMS, which was available, in >> > addition to the RSX additions for VMS, which was also a separate >> > product. That thing was supported up until fairly recently, though. >> > But again, that's for RSX stuff... > > I suspect that the most likely possibility is that RTEM and RTEM-11 are > used. Huh? If you are suggesting that they would be the same, I can assure you they could not. A very common misconception these days seems to be that VAXen with PDP-1 compatibility could run PDP-11 programs. That is only true in a very limited sense. Only the basic PDP-11 instruction set is supported by the VAX, and only the user mode stuff. EMTs, as well as any other kind of traps, interrupts, and so on, was *not* supported. When you execute an EMT in PDP-11 mode on a VAX, it will trap back to VAX mode. No possibility to have a PDP-11 trap handler. > In addition, I also suspect that both Johnny and Ethan are correct in > that RTEM > was supported under both RSX and VMS on an older VAX which allowed > compatibility mode. It would have to be totally separate products in that case. > I don''t know if Megan Gentry is still around or perhaps Allison or one > of the > other DEC fellows. Perhaps they might at least know something about which > hardware and operating system(s) supported RTEM? I definitely remember (and probably still have some mail somewhere) from Megan mentioning that she used RTEM-11 for RT-11 work, running on RSX machines. Possibly even an 11/74. > In addition, RSTS/E also supported RT-11 programs via the SWITCH RT11 > capability. However, only the RT-11 EMTs which are used by a SJ are > supported > by RSTS/E. At least there is quite reasonable documentation as well as > the ability > to test and actually run RT-11 programs under RSTS/E up to the latest > versions > of RSTS/E. RT-11 EMTs for mapped RT-11 monitors (RT11XM) are not supported > not are multi-terminal EMTs. Also, probably the latest RT-11 EMTs for > file status > information are also not supported under RSTS/E. The correct technical term is that RSTS/E have a RT-11 *run time system*. An RTS in RSTS/E provides an environment under which you can get a specific behaviour. So you had RTSes for RT-11, RSX, BASIC+, TECO, DCL and some other stuff. Some RTSes were also KBMs (keyboard monitors), meaning you could "switch" to them, and get an interactive command line interpreter with that. But the RTS mostly implemented system calls. However, there were RTSes which didn't implement any system calls, and only gave you the basic calls RSTS/E itself provided, and mostly focused on being a KBM, such as DCL. You can write you own RTS if you want to, and one think that have been at the back of my mind is if it wouldn't be pretty easy to write a Unix RTS for RSTS/E, so that you can run a bunch of Unix binaries under RSTS/E as well. All exeutable files have an RTS associated with it, and when the program is run, it is run under that RTS, which then handles all EMTs and so on when the program executes them. > Probably in the same manner as RSTS/E, if RTEM is supported under VMS on an > older VAX, the most likely only the RT-11 EMTs which are used by a SJ are > supported. Yes, RTEM-11 would most likely just provide a simple RT-11 environment, such as SJ. As I said before, I can't really find any proper information about any RT11 environment for VMS... But if it existed, it would probably be just SJ as well. Johnny From hachti at hachti.de Fri Jul 16 05:05:09 2010 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2010 12:05:09 +0200 Subject: For sale: Some DEC stuff Message-ID: <4C402ED5.5000309@hachti.de> Hi folks, anybody interested in buying the following? - Omnibus core memories (tested good) - M8350 TTY interfaces (tested good) - RK05 disks for pdp11 (12 sectors) (used, new, tested, untested) - RK05/RK05J/RK05F disk drive (untested, tested good, broken) - RK05x spares - TU56 DECTape (tested working, untested, broken) - TU56H single DECTape - PC05 paper tape reader/punch - Some other Omnibus cards PDP8/M ******* A PDP8/M computer. Very nice (near perfect!) condition front panel. Chassis condition lower medium condition. Backplane and PSU (220V) ok. No top cover. System configuration to be discussed. First guess would be 12K core, TTY, CPU - all tested stuff. PDP8/L ****** PDP8/L minicomputer, untested, keys bleached out by sun. Untested (really untested, currently don't have the time to repair the machine) but complete with the 4K core stack. 110V Keys kan be used from a pdp8/e - they're the same. But not from pdp8/m. Those have the wrong colour. The PC05 is a strange machine: The reader portion of it was used on a pdp8/e (PC8E interface). Normally you use PC04 for pdp8 computers. The reader part seems to be compatible. The punch part is untested. Mechanics look fine. I guess that there are also missing boards on the punch side. Nice condition though. No cover, 110V. Location: Northern Germany (Hannover, Kiel). Open for reasonable offers. Can send packages up to 30kg. TU56 can be shipped in two packages. pdp8/m fits a package. 8/L cannot be shipped internationally. Kind regards, Philipp -- http://www.hachti.de From scheefj at netscape.net Fri Jul 16 08:35:35 2010 From: scheefj at netscape.net (Jim Scheef) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2010 09:35:35 -0400 Subject: HOPE this weekend Message-ID: I'm sitting in the Tesla room waiting for the IPv6 session to start. We'll see how much stamina I have on Sunday. Jim Evan Koblentz wrote: > >>> American Bombe: How the U.S. Shattered the Enigma Code (Sunday, 1pm, Lovelace Room) >> I'm out in the midwest, so there's no chance of going to this - but I'd be curious to see the above. Any chance anyone is filming these things? > >I don't know. Go to www.thenexthope.org and inquire there. > >PS -- our MARCH booth will have some special guests -- Crunch is >stopping by, and David Ahl might come, too. From curt at atarimuseum.com Fri Jul 16 09:23:02 2010 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2010 10:23:02 -0400 Subject: HOPE this weekend In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C406B46.9040206@atarimuseum.com> If you get run down, just grab the tesla coils and recharge ;-) Jim Scheef wrote: > I'm sitting in the Tesla room waiting for the IPv6 session to start. We'll see how much stamina I have on Sunday. > > Jim > > Evan Koblentz wrote: > > >>>> American Bombe: How the U.S. Shattered the Enigma Code (Sunday, 1pm, Lovelace Room) >>>> >>> I'm out in the midwest, so there's no chance of going to this - but I'd be curious to see the above. Any chance anyone is filming these things? >>> >> I don't know. Go to www.thenexthope.org and inquire there. >> >> PS -- our MARCH booth will have some special guests -- Crunch is >> stopping by, and David Ahl might come, too. >> From snhirsch at gmail.com Fri Jul 16 08:25:08 2010 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2010 09:25:08 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Amlyn Minipac diskette changer Message-ID: Has anyone else on the list seen one of these? I picked up a Vista V1200 disk system for Apple 2 that uses this type of drive. The mechanism takes a plastic cartridge with five 5.25" floppy disks. The diskettes appear to be conventional SS format with a couple of extra punchouts to mate with the loader mechanism. Electrical interface is compatible with 8" floppy drives (interface card was also sold for that purpose). I'm not able to turn up any information about the drive and am wondering how the diskette select/load scheme is intended to work. There are at least a couple of possibilities: - Treat the physical diskettes as portions of a single logical floppy and select diskette by track range (first diskette 0-39, second 40-79, etc.) - Treat each physical diskette as a logical drive and use binary select lines on interface to choose. Anyone have documentation on the drive mechanism or the Vista product? Steve -- From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Jul 16 12:36:56 2010 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2010 11:36:56 -0600 Subject: HOPE this weekend In-Reply-To: <4C406B46.9040206@atarimuseum.com> References: <4C406B46.9040206@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <4C4098B8.40507@jetnet.ab.ca> Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > If you get run down, just grab the tesla coils and recharge ;-) > Not everybody has electrodes in one's neck. :) Ben. From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jul 16 12:44:17 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2010 10:44:17 -0700 Subject: Amlyn Minipac diskette changer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C403801.32204.3C1E80@cclist.sydex.com> On 16 Jul 2010 at 9:25, Steven Hirsch wrote: > - Treat each physical diskette as a logical drive and use binary > select lines on interface to choose. That's the way the Amlyn drives for the Apple that I've seen work. One drive mechanism, magazine of five floppies, appears as five drives. There was also a version for the PC, but I don't remember how that worked. --Chuck From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Fri Jul 16 13:32:36 2010 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2010 20:32:36 +0200 Subject: 68K (ISA) project In-Reply-To: <392492.32548.qm@web65502.mail.ac4.yahoo.com><4C3EE51D.3796.7ED4EE@cclist.sydex.com><4C3F8281.2080004@thebackend.de> References: <392492.32548.qm@web65502.mail.ac4.yahoo.com><4C3EE51D.3796.7ED4EE@cclist.sydex.com><4C3F8281.2080004@thebackend.de> Message-ID: From: "Charles Dickman" Sent: Friday, July 16, 2010 4:59 AM To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: 68K (ISA) project > Back in 1999 I had some of the same ambitions, this ( > http://www.chdickman.com/sbc/ ) was the result. Like many things, I never > followed through with it. I could interface 68k, 6800 and Intel oriented > ICs. I think it has all the signals necessary to add an ISA bus. I did > save > some edge connectors for the purpose. I keep wanting to get it back out > and > play with it. > > A monitor listing and the PLD files are online, but not a schematic. I > wanted to put out a schematic, but I got the idea that a kid in college > was > using it for a class project. Actually with PLD files should be enough to > figure out the rest for "someone competent in the field." > > -chuck Nice work Chuck. I know your pages, but somehow I never noticed the 68k page! *if* I am going to build another 68k SBC, it will probably not have the 64 pin DIL 68k but the 68HC000 QFP chip you used, because it can run at higher clock speeds. I have my pdp8/e code transalted to 68k assember, and it runs MAINDEC-8E-D0AB-PB.pt (instruction test pt. 1) succesfully. Using Easy68k's cycle counter dividing by 10 MHz it seems that this code runs approx 3x slower than a real pdp8/e. However, MAINDEC-8E-D0BB-PB.pt (test pt. 2) fails quite early on DCA, for which I have not yet a solution. But it is fun to debug some 68k assembler code again :-) - Henk. From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Jul 16 13:54:59 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2010 11:54:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Amlyn Minipac diskette changer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20100716114257.I9041@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 16 Jul 2010, Steven Hirsch wrote: > Has anyone else on the list seen one of these? I had a few of the 5150 version. Sellam has them now. > I picked up a Vista V1200 > disk system for Apple 2 that uses this type of drive. The mechanism takes > a plastic cartridge with five 5.25" floppy disks. The diskettes appear to > be conventional SS format with a couple of extra punchouts to mate with > the loader mechanism. Electrical interface is compatible with 8" floppy > drives (interface card was also sold for that purpose). The 5150 version, and probably yours also, uses DSHD ("1.2M") disks. As you mentioned, it has extra cut-outs. I have used diskettes from the cartridges as regular 1.2m. If you get desperate, I have a few cartridges kicking around. > I'm not able to turn up any information about the drive and am wondering > how the diskette select/load scheme is intended to work. There are > at least a couple of possibilities: > - Treat the physical diskettes as portions of a single logical floppy and > select diskette by track range (first diskette 0-39, second 40-79, etc.) Depending on the software that you use, . . . The default software for the 5150 sees the pack as a single 6M disk. (5 * 1.2M) > - Treat each physical diskette as a logical drive and use binary select > lines on interface to choose. . . . capable of that, but not the default in the 5150 software > Anyone have documentation on the drive mechanism or the Vista product? No. . . .and I really wanted to get into it, particularly when an Amlyn rep said that the seek was a closed-loop servo, and could do 48tpi, 96tpi, 100tpi, "or whatever else you want". But, I was not ready when it came time to close my office, and had to abandon that project, along with many others. For a few years, before I ever saw an Amlyn, I used a Vista 5150 disk controller for 8" drives on a 5150. I have/had some docs for that, but not likely to be able to find them in a timely manner. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From ljw-cctech at ljw.me.uk Fri Jul 16 15:11:28 2010 From: ljw-cctech at ljw.me.uk (Lawrence Wilkinson) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2010 21:11:28 +0100 Subject: 360/30 simulator video In-Reply-To: <1279139422.8963.18.camel@entasis> References: <1279139422.8963.18.camel@entasis> Message-ID: <1279311088.23229.29.camel@entasis> Ok, the code for the basic simulator is now available at: http://www.ljw.me.uk/ibm360/vhdl/ If you have a Digilent S3 board then you can download the "bit" or "mcs" files to program it directly. I haven't yet documented the external switch wiring, but if you run it as is you can use the onboard switches for Reset, Start and Stop. Have fun! Lawrence On Wed, 2010-07-14 at 21:30 +0100, Lawrence Wilkinson wrote: > I have created a YouTube account and uploaded a short video showing the > simulator running a small program: > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=walWU2MQ2OM > > Sorry about the lack of video quality, but I'm sure you'll get the idea. > > If you want to know more, you can get the FETOM Y24-3360-1 from > Bitsavers (or a mirror!) There is a front-panel layout on p6-2 of this > manual, which may help in deciphering the panel lamps. > > The program being run is The "Indian" Problem on p73 of the Introduction > to System/360 Assembler Language manual SC20-1646-6, also on Bitsavers. > It is loaded at address 100. > > I am in the process of readying the VHDL files for release - tidying up > and adding GPL headers at the moment. They should be available within > the next week or two. > -- Lawrence Wilkinson lawrence at ljw.me.uk The IBM 360/30 page http://www.ljw.me.uk/ibm360 From philip at axeside.co.uk Fri Jul 16 12:10:09 2010 From: philip at axeside.co.uk (Philip Belben) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2010 18:10:09 +0100 Subject: regarding Datamaster's and such In-Reply-To: <4C3D0954.9050805@gmail.com> References: <4C37E654.2060509@gmail.com> <32158.30257.qm@web110603.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <20100713051139.022775AA001@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <4C3D0954.9050805@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4C409271.2090309@axeside.co.uk> I've just been catching up on Classiccmp, and I found this discussion. I'd never heard of a 5324 before either, but from the number I guessed it was a System/23 (my Datamaster is a 5322). I have the 5322 service manual. It's not particularly useful, but you may find it of benefit. If you'd like it I'll try and scan it at work next week. > So, is the basic in ROM? Do I have to have a system disk to get this > thing to work? Yes, BASIC is in ROM. Quite a big basic - I think there's about 128K of ROM in this beast! IIRC you don't need a system disk. But it fails power on diagnostics if the printer isn't plugged into it and switched on. HTH Philip. From lee_courtney at acm.org Fri Jul 16 12:37:22 2010 From: lee_courtney at acm.org (Lee Courtney (ACM)) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2010 10:37:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Two HP Apollo Workstations Available In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <674742.31002.qm@web35303.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I have two HP 700 Series (700 and 735/125) PA-RISC workstations I'd like to pass along. Available for FREE, local pick-up only in Menlo Park, CA. System 1: HP 735 Model 125, Seagate ST32430WD, 128MB RAM, no KB or display, various SCSI and network ports, RGB monitor interface - powers on and passes POST System 2: HP Apollo Series 700, Quantum UP32210, 48MB RAM, no KB or display, various SCSI and network ports, RGB monitor interface - does NOT power up First come, first served. If no takers by next Wednesday then goes to E-waste. Cheers, Lee Courtney From philip at axeside.co.uk Fri Jul 16 12:51:42 2010 From: philip at axeside.co.uk (Philip Belben) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2010 18:51:42 +0100 Subject: Any former Psion 5 owners out there? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C409C2E.8060705@axeside.co.uk> Liam Proven wrote: > This is not strictly on-topic, but I thought it might be of interest. > I for one, and a lot of former Psion-owning acquaintances, have long > bemoaned that there is no modern equivalent of the classic > keyboard-driven PDA available today. > > Which is why I was rather interested by this device: > http://digitalchunk.com/kddi-sharp-android-iso1-smartbook.htm Thanks for the reference. It looks an interesting product. But why "former Psion 5 owners", on this list of all places? I have never owned a Psion 5 - but I use my Psion 3c daily! Philip (still catching up on the list...) From snhirsch at gmail.com Fri Jul 16 14:12:14 2010 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2010 15:12:14 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Amlyn Minipac diskette changer In-Reply-To: <20100716114257.I9041@shell.lmi.net> References: <20100716114257.I9041@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 16 Jul 2010, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Fri, 16 Jul 2010, Steven Hirsch wrote: >> Has anyone else on the list seen one of these? > > I had a few of the 5150 version. > Sellam has them now. Is Sellam "The Computer History Museum"? They appear to have manuals and drives, but no means of accessing documentation. I guess it's nice if you want to look at pictures. >> I picked up a Vista V1200 >> disk system for Apple 2 that uses this type of drive. The mechanism takes >> a plastic cartridge with five 5.25" floppy disks. The diskettes appear to >> be conventional SS format with a couple of extra punchouts to mate with >> the loader mechanism. Electrical interface is compatible with 8" floppy >> drives (interface card was also sold for that purpose). > > The 5150 version, and probably yours also, uses DSHD ("1.2M") disks. As > you mentioned, it has extra cut-outs. I have used diskettes from the > cartridges as regular 1.2m. > > If you get desperate, I have a few cartridges kicking around. I would like to take you up on that if you can locate them. I also saw a note from you referring to a frame for punching holes in 1.2M floppies to make them fit. If you have one of those, I'd be interested. >> I'm not able to turn up any information about the drive and am wondering >> how the diskette select/load scheme is intended to work. There are >> at least a couple of possibilities: >> - Treat the physical diskettes as portions of a single logical floppy and >> select diskette by track range (first diskette 0-39, second 40-79, etc.) > > Depending on the software that you use, . . . > The default software for the 5150 sees the pack as a single 6M disk. > (5 * 1.2M) Hmm. I wonder how they map tracks, then? The A2 Vista controller uses a WD179x controller and I think those are limited to one-byte track values. >> - Treat each physical diskette as a logical drive and use binary select >> lines on interface to choose. > > . . . capable of that, but not the default in the 5150 software > >> Anyone have documentation on the drive mechanism or the Vista product? > > No. Thanks for the response - I'll keep looking. And do let me know if you want to part with the cartridges and/or punch jig. Steve -- From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jul 16 14:30:58 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2010 20:30:58 +0100 (BST) Subject: 68K ISA project In-Reply-To: <4C3F7E4B.4030308@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at Jul 15, 10 02:31:55 pm Message-ID: > > On 07/15/2010 12:07 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > > Can you enlighten me as to what 'Techncial BASIC' and 'Rocky Mountain > > BASIC' really are? > > > > Rocky Mountain BASIC is what evolved from the 9830, 9835, 9845, etc. It > ran on the 9000/200 and 9000/300 non-HP-UX systems. On the 9000 HP-UX > systems it was called "BASIC/UX". Some versions that ran on the PC or > inside instruments were called "Instrument BASIC". OK... Although IMHO HP9830 BASIC is farily clsoe to HP85 BASIC and wildly different from the RMB I run on the HP9000... But I guess that's how things evolve. > > Technical BASIC is what evolved from the 83/85/9905, 86/87, 75, etc. It ^^^^ 9915? The rackmount 85. > was first called Technical BASIC on the 9807A Integral, but later was > available for HP-UX on other 9000 systems. > > There were enough differences between the two that many customers > complained about the lack of Rocky Mountain BASIC for the Integral. Now that I can well understand. While I love the Integral, I do wonder why it was made so different to the 9000/200 machines. I wish it took the same I/O cards, for a start... -tony From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Jul 16 15:56:31 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2010 13:56:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Amlyn Minipac diskette changer In-Reply-To: References: <20100716114257.I9041@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20100716134420.V9041@shell.lmi.net> > > I had a few of the 5150 version. > > Sellam has them now. On Fri, 16 Jul 2010, Steven Hirsch wrote: > Is Sellam "The Computer History Museum"? No. He is VCF, and has what is likely to be the largest personal collection. When I needed to move out of my office, he took an enormous amount of stuff to add to his collection. > > If you get desperate, I have a few cartridges kicking around. > I would like to take you up on that if you can locate them. address? > I also saw a > note from you referring to a frame for punching holes in 1.2M floppies to > make them fit. If you have one of those, I'd be interested. I don't remember that. But, 30 years ago, I did make and commercially market "The Berkeley Microcomputer Flip-Jig" for punching regular floppies to make them flippies. (not needed for Apple, because it didn't use the index hole) > Hmm. I wonder how they map tracks, then? The A2 Vista controller uses a > WD179x controller and I think those are limited to one-byte track values. I don't know. The easiest way to write the software would be to have it look like an 80 cylinder 10 head drive. But that would be horrible with disk switching on every other side change. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jul 16 16:34:55 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2010 14:34:55 -0700 Subject: Amlyn Minipac diskette changer In-Reply-To: References: , <20100716114257.I9041@shell.lmi.net>, Message-ID: <4C406E0F.19073.10F46B7@cclist.sydex.com> On 16 Jul 2010 at 15:12, Steven Hirsch wrote: > Hmm. I wonder how they map tracks, then? The A2 Vista controller > uses a WD179x controller and I think those are limited to one-byte > track values. Doesn't matter; it was done within the driver; the disks were swapped as needed. --Chuck From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Jul 16 18:03:44 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2010 16:03:44 -0700 Subject: 68K ISA project In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C40E550.6060009@brouhaha.com> I wrote: >> Rocky Mountain BASIC is what evolved from the 9830, 9835, 9845, etc. Tony Duell wrote: > OK... Although IMHO HP9830 BASIC is farily clsoe to HP85 BASIC and wildly > different from the RMB I run on the HP9000... But I guess that's how > things evolve. Yes. I'm sure the 9830 influenced the developers of the 85. >> Technical BASIC is what evolved from the 83/85/9905, 86/87, 75, etc. It > 9915? The rackmount 85. Yes, that's what I meant. Thanks! >> was first called Technical BASIC on the 9807A Integral, but later was >> available for HP-UX on other 9000 systems. >> There were enough differences between the two that many customers >> complained about the lack of Rocky Mountain BASIC for the Integral. > Now that I can well understand. While I love the Integral, I do wonder > why it was made so different to the 9000/200 machines. I wish it took the > same I/O cards, for a start... Because the Integral was designed by Corvallis Division, as a followon/replacement for the 80 series, and all the other 9000 machines were designed by Fort Collins Division. Eric From lproven at gmail.com Fri Jul 16 21:41:44 2010 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2010 03:41:44 +0100 Subject: Any former Psion 5 owners out there? In-Reply-To: <4C409C2E.8060705@axeside.co.uk> References: <4C409C2E.8060705@axeside.co.uk> Message-ID: On 16 July 2010 18:51, Philip Belben wrote: > Liam Proven wrote: >> >> This is not strictly on-topic, but I thought it might be of interest. >> I for one, and a lot of former Psion-owning acquaintances, have long >> bemoaned that there is no modern equivalent of the classic >> keyboard-driven PDA available today. >> >> Which is why I was rather interested by this device: >> http://digitalchunk.com/kddi-sharp-android-iso1-smartbook.htm > > Thanks for the reference. ?It looks an interesting product. > > But why "former Psion 5 owners", on this list of all places? ?I have never > owned a Psion 5 - but I use my Psion 3c daily! > > Philip ?(still catching up on the list...) Well, true - but there is nothing quite like the Series 3 any more and I don't think there ever will be again. Frankly, although there were things I really missed about my various S3s, the S5s were better in so many important or significant ways that I never considered moving back. I preferred the S3 interface, the keyboard shortcuts, the file/program manager and much more, but the S5 was so much more capable, I never regretted moving. I'd give a lot for a modern S5 type device, but I would never go back to an S3 today, I'm afraid... -- Liam Proven ? Profile & links: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From snhirsch at gmail.com Fri Jul 16 15:52:53 2010 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2010 16:52:53 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Amlyn Minipac diskette changer In-Reply-To: <4C403801.32204.3C1E80@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4C403801.32204.3C1E80@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 16 Jul 2010, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 16 Jul 2010 at 9:25, Steven Hirsch wrote: > >> - Treat each physical diskette as a logical drive and use binary >> select lines on interface to choose. > > That's the way the Amlyn drives for the Apple that I've seen work. > One drive mechanism, magazine of five floppies, appears as five > drives. That makes sense, but I'm wondering how they dealt with that at the software level. Under Apple DOS, you access disks by Sn,Dn (slot 1-7 and drive 1 or 2). Unless they patched DOS you couldn't say, for example, S7,D4. I think I need to get the software for this beast. Do you recall anything about the command structure? > There was also a version for the PC, but I don't remember how that > worked. Fred Cisin indicated that the PC version saw a single logical disk spread across all five floppies. Steve -- From jws at jwsss.com Fri Jul 16 17:18:25 2010 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2010 15:18:25 -0700 Subject: Two HP Apollo Workstations Available In-Reply-To: <674742.31002.qm@web35303.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <674742.31002.qm@web35303.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4C40DAB1.6040408@jwsss.com> Lee, I don't know when John Bohner will be down to the CHM area, but I have a variety of these workstations which would enjoy company. If you still have no immediate responses, and I can work it out, I'll take them for my pile. Thanks Jim On 7/16/2010 10:37 AM, Lee Courtney (ACM) wrote: > I have two HP 700 Series (700 and 735/125) PA-RISC workstations I'd like to pass > along. Available for FREE, local pick-up only in Menlo Park, CA. > > > System 1: HP 735 Model 125, Seagate ST32430WD, 128MB RAM, no KB or display, > various SCSI and network ports, RGB monitor interface - powers on and passes > POST > > System 2: HP Apollo Series 700, Quantum UP32210, 48MB RAM, no KB or display, > various SCSI and network ports, RGB monitor interface - does NOT power up > > First come, first served. If no takers by next Wednesday then goes to E-waste. > > Cheers, > > Lee Courtney > > > From RJasper5 at cox.net Sat Jul 17 00:49:32 2010 From: RJasper5 at cox.net (Rick) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2010 22:49:32 -0700 Subject: ez80 Message-ID: <20352D51F68C4538AD7FC6A39DF0A932@mepyx48u51877c> Hi Jeff, Interesting article. I am a big fan of the ez80f91. I find the data throughput rate so efficient that it's hard to over tax the CPU. I've built some pretty elaborate hardware/software systems using it! One thing I've been curious about and I want to try this myself some time. I wonder if anyone's ever built an LCD controller using the ez80? I believe it should be possible to get VGA quality out of it. Regards, Rick Jasper From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sat Jul 17 07:18:24 2010 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2010 13:18:24 +0100 Subject: DEC Alpha 433au Serial Port and Manual Message-ID: <00bc01cb25aa$28c813a0$7a583ae0$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> I recently acquired a 433au and I want to access it through the serial port. I am not having much luck with this and wonder if there might be something odd about the serial port. I would also like to find a manual for the machine and my web searches have not turned up anything. Does anyone have a PDF of the 433au's manual? Thanks Rob From cclist at sydex.com Sat Jul 17 10:06:51 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2010 08:06:51 -0700 Subject: Amlyn Minipac diskette changer In-Reply-To: References: , <4C403801.32204.3C1E80@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4C41649B.7546.4A61F@cclist.sydex.com> On 16 Jul 2010 at 16:52, Steven Hirsch wrote: > That makes sense, but I'm wondering how they dealt with that at the > software level. Under Apple DOS, you access disks by Sn,Dn (slot 1-7 > and drive 1 or 2). Unless they patched DOS you couldn't say, for > example, S7,D4. I think I need to get the software for this beast. > > Do you recall anything about the command structure? No I don't, sorry. Does anyone still have one of the Corvus units that use an IMI hard drive? ISTR that it mapped the drive into 50 or floppies. Perhaps that might give some insight. --Chuck From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sat Jul 17 10:13:10 2010 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2010 16:13:10 +0100 Subject: 17" CRT - Worth Keeping? Message-ID: <000001cb25c2$92978dc0$b7c6a940$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> I have a bulky Unisys EVG-500-COL 17" monitor that is taking up space. It has a 9-pin VGA connector and 5 BNC plugs on the back. It needs to warm up to work properly. I am not sure whether to keep it or just take it to the tip. What do people here think? Regards Rob From lproven at gmail.com Sat Jul 17 11:00:58 2010 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2010 17:00:58 +0100 Subject: 17" CRT - Worth Keeping? In-Reply-To: <-9184170294186502292@unknownmsgid> References: <-9184170294186502292@unknownmsgid> Message-ID: On 17 July 2010 16:13, Rob Jarratt wrote: > I have a bulky Unisys EVG-500-COL 17" monitor that is taking up space. It > has a 9-pin VGA connector and 5 BNC plugs on the back. It needs to warm up > to work properly. I am not sure whether to keep it or just take it to the > tip. What do people here think? Personally, I disposed of about 2 dozen such screens to ComputerAid last month. I suspect that any made before 2002, they just recycled. :?( -- Liam Proven ? Profile & links: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Jul 17 11:48:44 2010 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2010 09:48:44 -0700 Subject: DEC Alpha 433au Serial Port and Manual In-Reply-To: <00bc01cb25aa$28c813a0$7a583ae0$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> References: <00bc01cb25aa$28c813a0$7a583ae0$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: You probably need to know the SRM commands to turn on the Serial port. You might take a look on Hoff's website. I ran my 434au via the Serial port, same with the XP1000's. While I have VMS compatible graphics cards, it is more convenient with how I use them. Zane At 1:18 PM +0100 7/17/10, Rob Jarratt wrote: >I recently acquired a 433au and I want to access it through the serial port. >I am not having much luck with this and wonder if there might be something >odd about the serial port. I would also like to find a manual for the >machine and my web searches have not turned up anything. Does anyone have a >PDF of the 433au's manual? > >Thanks > >Rob -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | From rtellason at verizon.net Sat Jul 17 13:17:13 2010 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason, Sr.) Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2010 14:17:13 -0400 Subject: Commodore Floppies In-Reply-To: <4C011911.60902@aurigae.demon.co.uk> References: <201005290408.o4T488rh014528@floodgap.com> <4C011911.60902@aurigae.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <201007171417.13594.rtellason@verizon.net> On Saturday 29 May 2010 09:39:29 am Phill Harvey-Smith wrote: > On 29/05/2010 05:41, Gene Buckle wrote: > > On Sat, 29 May 2010, Phill Harvey-Smith wrote: > > > >> identical inside. I also believe that the 1540 can be upgraded by > >> replacing the firmware with that from the 1541. > >> > > ...and thereby utterly destroying the collectability of the 1540 drive. :) > > Which is why when I repaired the one I have and found it had a duff rom, > I replaced it with an eprom copy of the original ROM, as I guess my > chances of sourcing the actual ROM are pretty close to 0. I have a fair amount of c= parts, some salvage, some NOS from when I worked on that stuff extensively. Feel free to contact me offlist if you want any of it... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jul 17 13:00:20 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2010 19:00:20 +0100 (BST) Subject: 68K ISA project In-Reply-To: <4C40E550.6060009@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at Jul 16, 10 04:03:44 pm Message-ID: > > I wrote: > >> Rocky Mountain BASIC is what evolved from the 9830, 9835, 9845, etc. > > Tony Duell wrote: > > OK... Although IMHO HP9830 BASIC is farily clsoe to HP85 BASIC and > wildly > > different from the RMB I run on the HP9000... But I guess that's how > > things evolve. > > Yes. I'm sure the 9830 influenced the developers of the 85. I'm almost certain it did. Of course _I_ prefer the 9830 to any 80-series machine... > > >> Technical BASIC is what evolved from the 83/85/9905, 86/87, 75, etc. It > > 9915? The rackmount 85. > > Yes, that's what I meant. Thanks! I really must get round to making a keyboard for mine sometime. Finding an original is next-to-imposible, of course. > > >> was first called Technical BASIC on the 9807A Integral, but later was > >> available for HP-UX on other 9000 systems. > >> There were enough differences between the two that many customers > >> complained about the lack of Rocky Mountain BASIC for the Integral. > > Now that I can well understand. While I love the Integral, I do wonder > > why it was made so different to the 9000/200 machines. I wish it took the > > same I/O cards, for a start... > > Because the Integral was designed by Corvallis Division, as a > followon/replacement for the 80 series, and all the other 9000 machines > were designed by Fort Collins Division. While I don't doubt that, I think it's clear to anyone who looks at the machines that the 9826 was a replacement for the 85. Just look at them from the front -- all in one box, small built-in CRT on the left, mass storage to the right of it, etc. YEs, they're very different inside... Did the disk/tape drive diagnostic software ever exist for the Integral? (Things like the CS/80 external exerciser). It was available for the HP85, and the 9000/200s, etc. But having it on a portable machine would be really handy (both for HP field servoids back in the day, and for me now). But Iv'e never heard of it. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jul 17 13:01:51 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2010 19:01:51 +0100 (BST) Subject: ez80 In-Reply-To: <20352D51F68C4538AD7FC6A39DF0A932@mepyx48u51877c> from "Rick" at Jul 16, 10 10:49:32 pm Message-ID: > > Hi Jeff, > > Interesting article. I am a big fan of the ez80f91. I find the data = You know you've been (hardware) hacking too long when you read the subject: line of this message and assume it's going to be about a biphase valve rectifier with a 6.3V heater and a B9A (noval) base. Yes, that did happen to me... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jul 17 14:46:18 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2010 20:46:18 +0100 (BST) Subject: 17" CRT - Worth Keeping? In-Reply-To: <000001cb25c2$92978dc0$b7c6a940$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> from "Rob Jarratt" at Jul 17, 10 04:13:10 pm Message-ID: > > I have a bulky Unisys EVG-500-COL 17" monitor that is taking up space. It > has a 9-pin VGA connector and 5 BNC plugs on the back. It needs to warm up > to work properly. I am not sure whether to keep it or just take it to the > tip. What do people here think? Well, alas I agree that monitors can be a right pain to store, being large, heavy, and often not easy to stack things on top of. I think I would keep the monitor if it fitted into one of the following categories. 1) It is the origianl monitor for a particular classic computer (so I would keep the special monitors used on PERQs, and the HP-badged NEC mono monitros used with the HP86B, etc) 2) It does something that modern monitors don't (supports a particular scan rate, for example) 3) It has something interesting about the design. Any others? -tony From brianlanning at gmail.com Sat Jul 17 15:39:45 2010 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2010 15:39:45 -0500 Subject: 17" CRT - Worth Keeping? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Jul 17, 2010 at 2:46 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > 2) It does something that modern monitors don't (supports a particular > scan rate, for example) I much agree. A few monitors out there support scan rates down to 15khz. These work on amigas and are highly sought after. The NEC 3D was an example iirc. So check the specs before you trash them. brian From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Jul 17 15:44:03 2010 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2010 14:44:03 -0600 Subject: ez80 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C421613.4000601@jetnet.ab.ca> Tony Duell wrote: >> >> Hi Jeff, >> >> Interesting article. I am a big fan of the ez80f91. I find the data = > > You know you've been (hardware) hacking too long when you read the > subject: line of this message and assume it's going to be about a biphase > valve rectifier with a 6.3V heater and a B9A (noval) base. Yes, that did > happen to me... Not me , I am using 6X4's. :) > -tony > Ben. PS. Any tube experts out there? I need ideas to keep my hum down on preamp with a 6X4 and 6CG7. From roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk Sat Jul 17 15:46:40 2010 From: roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk (Roger Holmes) Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2010 21:46:40 +0100 Subject: Amlyn Minipac diskette changer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <17A707A5-03D7-4255-B450-9CFCCB476F47@microspot.co.uk> > From: Steven Hirsch > Subject: Amlyn Minipac diskette changer > > Has anyone else on the list seen one of these? I picked up a Vista V1200 > disk system for Apple 2 that uses this type of drive. The mechanism takes > a plastic cartridge with five 5.25" floppy disks. The diskettes appear to > be conventional SS format with a couple of extra punchouts to mate with > the loader mechanism. Electrical interface is compatible with 8" floppy > drives (interface card was also sold for that purpose). > > I'm not able to turn up any information about the drive and am wondering > how the diskette select/load scheme is intended to work. There are > at least a couple of possibilities: > > - Treat the physical diskettes as portions of a single logical floppy and > select diskette by track range (first diskette 0-39, second 40-79, etc.) > > - Treat each physical diskette as a logical drive and use binary select > lines on interface to choose. > > Anyone have documentation on the drive mechanism or the Vista product? I had a very similar unit for the Apple 3. As I remember it looked like a single 6MB drive to the OS. I don't think that would have been possible on Apple 2. Earlier I had a 5MB ICE hard drive on an Apple 2 which looked like 35 floppy disks to DOS. It might have looked different under UCSD Pascal, maybe you could have a single large file, but its a long time ago, I just can't remember. From ljw-cctech at ljw.me.uk Sat Jul 17 16:13:11 2010 From: ljw-cctech at ljw.me.uk (Lawrence Wilkinson) Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2010 22:13:11 +0100 Subject: 360/30 simulator video In-Reply-To: <000901cb2594$16173bc0$04000005@pc> References: <1279139422.8963.18.camel@entasis> <1279311088.23229.29.camel@entasis> <000901cb2594$16173bc0$04000005@pc> Message-ID: <1279401191.30247.52.camel@entasis> Alain, I tried compiling it as-is for the 400k S3 and it didn't fit. The main problem is the RAM, which chews up resources. I tried a 4k storage version, but still no luck. I can't compile for the S3E without re-allocating the I/O pins. I am planning to move the storage into the external RAM chip(s) (providing 64k), and leaving the microcode internal. That might allow it to fit into a smaller device. There will be other work to get the S3E board going - I expect the VGA is different and it has SDRAM in place of SRAM. It does have a good size flash which might make a good virtual disk or drum! Assuming you have the software, you could try compiling it with even smaller storage and see how you get on. Lawrence On Sat, 2010-07-17 at 11:40 +0200, nierveze wrote: > hello , very nice job ,I have a 500k fpga s3e starter kit board can you say > how much of your 1000k does it take?thanks ,regards > alain nierveze > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Lawrence Wilkinson" > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" > Sent: vendredi 16 juillet 2010 22:11 > Subject: Re: 360/30 simulator video > > > > Ok, the code for the basic simulator is now available at: > > http://www.ljw.me.uk/ibm360/vhdl/ > > > > If you have a Digilent S3 board then you can download the "bit" or "mcs" > > files to program it directly. > > > > I haven't yet documented the external switch wiring, but if you run it > > as is you can use the onboard switches for Reset, Start and Stop. > > > > Have fun! > > > > Lawrence > > > > On Wed, 2010-07-14 at 21:30 +0100, Lawrence Wilkinson wrote: > > > I have created a YouTube account and uploaded a short video showing the > > > simulator running a small program: > > > > > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=walWU2MQ2OM > > > > > > Sorry about the lack of video quality, but I'm sure you'll get the idea. > > > > > > If you want to know more, you can get the FETOM Y24-3360-1 from > > > Bitsavers (or a mirror!) There is a front-panel layout on p6-2 of this > > > manual, which may help in deciphering the panel lamps. > > > > > > The program being run is The "Indian" Problem on p73 of the Introduction > > > to System/360 Assembler Language manual SC20-1646-6, also on Bitsavers. > > > It is loaded at address 100. > > > > > > I am in the process of readying the VHDL files for release - tidying up > > > and adding GPL headers at the moment. They should be available within > > > the next week or two. > > > > > > > > > -- > > Lawrence Wilkinson lawrence at ljw.me.uk > > The IBM 360/30 page http://www.ljw.me.uk/ibm360 > > > > > -- Lawrence Wilkinson lawrence at ljw.me.uk The IBM 360/30 page http://www.ljw.me.uk/ibm360 From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Sat Jul 17 16:27:27 2010 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2010 14:27:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Amlyn Minipac diskette changer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 16 Jul 2010, Steven Hirsch wrote: > Has anyone else on the list seen one of these? I picked up a Vista V1200 > disk system for Apple 2 that uses this type of drive. The mechanism takes a > plastic cartridge with five 5.25" floppy disks. The diskettes appear to be > conventional SS format with a couple of extra punchouts to mate with the > loader mechanism. Electrical interface is compatible with 8" floppy drives > (interface card was also sold for that purpose). I think I encountered one in a client's junk closet. By the way, does anyone know the identity or have pictures of the device referenced in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Floppy_disk#Floppy_mass_storage as being "spectacularly messy" when it failed? -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sat Jul 17 17:01:29 2010 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2010 23:01:29 +0100 Subject: 17" CRT - Worth Keeping? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <000601cb25fb$9f7adf40$de709dc0$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Brian Lanning > Sent: 17 July 2010 21:40 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: 17" CRT - Worth Keeping? > > On Sat, Jul 17, 2010 at 2:46 PM, Tony Duell > wrote: > > 2) It does something that modern monitors don't (supports a > particular > > scan rate, for example) > > I much agree. A few monitors out there support scan rates down to > 15khz. These work on amigas and are highly sought after. The NEC 3D > was an example iirc. So check the specs before you trash them. > > brian I will try to locate specs and post them if I find them, then hopefully someone will be able to tell me if it is worth keeping. Thanks Rob From philip at axeside.co.uk Sat Jul 17 04:21:06 2010 From: philip at axeside.co.uk (Philip Belben) Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2010 10:21:06 +0100 Subject: Any former Psion 5 owners out there? In-Reply-To: References: <4C409C2E.8060705@axeside.co.uk> Message-ID: <4C417602.5090100@axeside.co.uk> Liam, quoting me: >> But why "former Psion 5 owners", on this list of all places? I have never >> owned a Psion 5 - but I use my Psion 3c daily! > > Well, true - but there is nothing quite like the Series 3 any more and > I don't think there ever will be again. Frankly, although there were > things I really missed about my various S3s, the S5s were better in so > many important or significant ways that I never considered moving > back. Sorry if I sounded as though I was starting a Psion 3 vs 5 war. That was far from my intention! I was merely saying that this is Classiccmp! You don't look on Classiccmp for _former_ owners of nice machines, but for people who still use them! And not just the Psion 5 - your post is equally relevant to people like me who use the 3. Or the HP 95, 100 and 200 palmtops. Or plenty of other machines. > I preferred the S3 interface, the keyboard shortcuts, the file/program > manager and much more, but the S5 was so much more capable, I never > regretted moving. > > I'd give a lot for a modern S5 type device, but I would never go back > to an S3 today, I'm afraid... Fair enough. I'm not criticising you for it. I got my first two Psion 3 machines when they were withdrawing the Psion 5 at work. We were asked to find any Psion 5 machines lying around and send them in for recycling :-( On a shelf we found a box with two Psion 3c machines in instead. Since we hadn't been asked to return those, I kept them. (With the former user's blessing, I may add) I never had much exposure to the Psion 5. I don't much like touch screens [*] - and the touch screens of that period wore out quickly, IIRC - and the hinge on the 5 was even more complicated and liable to fail than that on the 3. So what was nice about the 5? I'm not asking you to justify yourself; I'm genuinely curious! On the subject of Psions, the two common failure modes on the 3: cracked hinge, and leaky backup circuit. By the latter I mean something in the circuitry that remains active when the main battery fails - clock, memory, not much else - starts drawing excessive current, and the machine flattens the backup cell in about a day, whether the main battery is in or not. Does anyone know what causes this? I have two old main boards with this symptom, which I must reverse-engineer. One day... Philip. [*] ... but prefer keyboards. Which is why your original post was so welcome! From nierveze at radio-astronomie.com Sat Jul 17 04:40:11 2010 From: nierveze at radio-astronomie.com (nierveze) Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2010 11:40:11 +0200 Subject: 360/30 simulator video References: <1279139422.8963.18.camel@entasis> <1279311088.23229.29.camel@entasis> Message-ID: <000901cb2594$16173bc0$04000005@pc> hello , very nice job ,I have a 500k fpga s3e starter kit board can you say how much of your 1000k does it take?thanks ,regards alain nierveze ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lawrence Wilkinson" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" Sent: vendredi 16 juillet 2010 22:11 Subject: Re: 360/30 simulator video > Ok, the code for the basic simulator is now available at: > http://www.ljw.me.uk/ibm360/vhdl/ > > If you have a Digilent S3 board then you can download the "bit" or "mcs" > files to program it directly. > > I haven't yet documented the external switch wiring, but if you run it > as is you can use the onboard switches for Reset, Start and Stop. > > Have fun! > > Lawrence > > On Wed, 2010-07-14 at 21:30 +0100, Lawrence Wilkinson wrote: > > I have created a YouTube account and uploaded a short video showing the > > simulator running a small program: > > > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=walWU2MQ2OM > > > > Sorry about the lack of video quality, but I'm sure you'll get the idea. > > > > If you want to know more, you can get the FETOM Y24-3360-1 from > > Bitsavers (or a mirror!) There is a front-panel layout on p6-2 of this > > manual, which may help in deciphering the panel lamps. > > > > The program being run is The "Indian" Problem on p73 of the Introduction > > to System/360 Assembler Language manual SC20-1646-6, also on Bitsavers. > > It is loaded at address 100. > > > > I am in the process of readying the VHDL files for release - tidying up > > and adding GPL headers at the moment. They should be available within > > the next week or two. > > > > > -- > Lawrence Wilkinson lawrence at ljw.me.uk > The IBM 360/30 page http://www.ljw.me.uk/ibm360 > > From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sat Jul 17 12:13:08 2010 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2010 10:13:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 17" CRT - Worth Keeping? In-Reply-To: <000001cb25c2$92978dc0$b7c6a940$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <548744.40342.qm@web65502.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> personally I love old monitors. This ones seems especially instersting being it has BNC jacks. I'd stick it in the closet, or in the yard inside 2 or 3 very sturdy plastic bags. If Adrian gets his way, there won't be a single one left in the entire UK! From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sat Jul 17 12:48:51 2010 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2010 10:48:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 68K ISA project In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <782.62793.qm@web65512.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> --- On Wed, 7/14/10, Andrew Lynch wrote: > I'll continue researching and hopefully something will turn > up.? If any of > our German/European colleagues have access to the PC Par > 68000 article in > "mc" from 1989 and would be willing to scan I would greatly > appreciate it as > it seems to be the most practical solution at the moment. Weren't you the OP? I done said Radio Electronics had a series on building a 68K box w/ISA slots. I perused the 1st installment this morning, and yep it'll run an MDA card (CGA probably too), and stock floppy controllers, as well as hard disk controllers. What more could you want! Keep in mind though the original developer is on these lists somewhere, and wants big bucks for the (more or less complete) kit. So you'll have to contact him if you want to use his firmware. I don't have the entire set of installments, but presumably (though don't quote me) the artwork was available right in the magazine. From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sat Jul 17 13:37:03 2010 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2010 11:37:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 68K (ISA) project In-Reply-To: <4C3EE51D.3796.7ED4EE@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <293781.24598.qm@web65506.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> > On 15 Jul 2010 at 19:08, Henk Gooijen > wrote: > > > Building an SBC (for any "old" processor) is not too > difficult ... the > > question is *what* are you planning to do with > it?? Do you have a > > purpose? Building just for the "building" is not very > long lasting ... I sort of beg to differ. Writing competent firmware doesn't seem to be such an easy task. Sure building a small board w/ultra minimal firmware shouldn't be too bad, even the designing part. But I've been eyeing this Robot Brain (80188 based) board in Radio Electronics, and I doubt that too many people on this list would have the skill to design that from the ground up (I imagine there are exceptions though). I do have the artwork and most or all of the firmware, so I am going to build one. Soon... Most people will simply want to copy something from a textbook or magazine. If anyone wanted to develop something useful, a FPGA replacement for some unobtainium chip or whatever makes much more sense to me. And even that is something of a steep learning curve. From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sat Jul 17 13:51:22 2010 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2010 11:51:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: scanning is a huge waste of time was Re: regarding Datamaster's and such In-Reply-To: <4C409271.2090309@axeside.co.uk> Message-ID: <575192.98207.qm@web65509.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Philip, do yourself a favor. Use a digital camera. I own a smallish unit, believe it or not the name escapes me at the moment, and it delivers totally readable snaps of whatever I intend to archive. It's more then adequate. If you attempt to scan something, well, it might never happen. And you'll tare whatever you're trying to scan to hell. Canon coolpix or something. I think that's it. It's better to have something *out there*, then nothing at all. I'm not apologizing for the quality of the stills. Hell my first attempt at archiving material was 5 or 6 years ago using an Aiptek pencam (1.2 megapix allegedly, and a *real* glass lense, that I needed to rotate by hand to get the proper focus incidentally). I was flabbergasted at the quality of the results on the very first try using that hunk of crap. --- On Fri, 7/16/10, Philip Belben wrote: > From: Philip Belben > Subject: Re: regarding Datamaster's and such > To: "On-Topic Posts Only" > Date: Friday, July 16, 2010, 1:10 PM > I've just been catching up on > Classiccmp, and I found this discussion. > > I'd never heard of a 5324 before either, but from the > number I guessed it was a System/23 (my Datamaster is a > 5322). > > I have the 5322 service manual.? It's not particularly > useful, but you may find it of benefit.? If you'd like > it I'll try and scan it at work next week. > > > So, is the basic in ROM? Do I have to have a system > disk to get this thing to work? > > Yes, BASIC is in ROM.? Quite a big basic - I think > there's about 128K of ROM in this beast! > > IIRC you don't need a system disk.? But it fails power > on diagnostics if the printer isn't plugged into it and > switched on. > > HTH > > Philip. > > From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sat Jul 17 14:48:38 2010 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2010 12:48:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Research Machines Nimbus-186 Message-ID: <483876.84245.qm@web65505.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> I am now the proud owner of a Nimbus motherboard. Anyone w/a technical manual? Does it use standard floppy drives? It seems to have onboard video ports, so I'm thankful for that at least. I found some warez here: http://www.theoldcomputer.com I arrived at specific Nimbus files (about 5, including DOS 3.1 - will run on the N-186?) by googling (everything is categorized as a *rom*, it being the worlds biggest bloodiest rom site), so you might be better off using that back door. So help me out guys. Need to get this bad boy operating. From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sat Jul 17 14:52:20 2010 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2010 12:52:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 17" CRT - Worth Keeping? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <286516.65616.qm@web65503.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> it might be a multisyncer, seeing it has a 9 pin VGA connector (kind of contradictory actually). Those models are few and far between. I know of 2 NEC models and 2 Sony models that could display VGA (and CGA and everything in between). Come to think of it though one of those Sony's could display anything but VGA frequencies (or Mac II era w/the proper adapter), so there you go. From snhirsch at gmail.com Sat Jul 17 15:16:06 2010 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2010 16:16:06 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Amlyn Minipac diskette changer In-Reply-To: <4C41649B.7546.4A61F@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4C403801.32204.3C1E80@cclist.sydex.com>, <4C41649B.7546.4A61F@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 17 Jul 2010, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 16 Jul 2010 at 16:52, Steven Hirsch wrote: > >> That makes sense, but I'm wondering how they dealt with that at the >> software level. Under Apple DOS, you access disks by Sn,Dn (slot 1-7 >> and drive 1 or 2). Unless they patched DOS you couldn't say, for >> example, S7,D4. I think I need to get the software for this beast. >> >> Do you recall anything about the command structure? > > No I don't, sorry. Does anyone still have one of the Corvus units > that use an IMI hard drive? ISTR that it mapped the drive into 50 or > floppies. Perhaps that might give some insight. Ok, I think I see what they're doing. The driver patches Apple DOS to expect a large logical geometry and maps logical track + sector requests to physical diskette + track + sector. I expect it shuffles diskettes as you exceed maximum block offset for a currently loaded disk. At the hardware interface level, it's probably using binary select lines to choose disk 0-4 from the cartridge. Good news is that the unit booted into Vista DOS 3.3 when connected to my IIe in the shop. The bad news is that it only did so once :-(. On subsequent attempts, it sits and re-seeks endlessly. I suspect the media is deteriorating and crapped the head up with oxide. I'll clean it up and take a last crack at copying off the system software and utilities. Next step is to take an X-acto knife to a handful of 5.25" 1.2M diskettes and see if the loader can work with them. I pulled down a copy of their patent application for the unit and it almost looks like the Minipac diskettes have some sort of pre-written servo track. Perhaps the unit can actually write this servo, but without documentation I'm just surmising. Steve -- From philip at axeside.co.uk Sat Jul 17 15:51:08 2010 From: philip at axeside.co.uk (Philip Belben) Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2010 21:51:08 +0100 Subject: Tek fiches found! (was: Looking for Tektronix 4051 programs...) In-Reply-To: <4C02B9BE.7010802@axeside.co.uk> References: , <4BFE0F1A.6070600@mail.msu.edu> <4C02B9BE.7010802@axeside.co.uk> Message-ID: <4C4217BC.4080005@axeside.co.uk> Back in May I said > Some microfiches of Tek manuals, including a large number of issues of > the 4050 Series Software Library Newsletter (later Tekniques magazine). > It was one of these that I printed out in order to type in the > Christmas card program. > > The microfiches were given me by someone in Tek UK when I was > researching the talk I gave at the VCF in Santa Clara in 1998. I never > wrote and thanked them, for which I feel horribly guilty. > > If someone has the equipment to scan microfiches, and is prepared to put > in the time to sort the stuff and get it online, I shall be happy to > hand them over. I could probably scan some manuals too - I think the > scanner at work will do the A3 or ANSI B pages. I've found my Tek microfiche collection! Twenty-nine fiches (although some have only a few sheets, and one has only a single sheet) with marketing announcements, brochures, manuals, and a lot of back issues of the 4050 series newsletter (which later became Tekniques magazine) I'd like to see this preserved - does anyone have a scanner that will do fiche, and the time to work on these to get good quality scans? If so, I'll lend you the fiches. The size reduction seems to be about 24 times, so to get the equivalent of 400dpi from the originals you need to scan at 9600dpi. I'm not sure whether the quality is there, though. (I just asked my scanner to have a go at the first page, and it's been sitting thinking about it for nearly half an hour now. I think that's because it has to synthesise the higher resolutions from several scans, or something, but even so.) Philip. From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sat Jul 17 15:53:38 2010 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2010 13:53:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: need Lisa parts Message-ID: <478304.162.qm@web65503.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> in particular a nice crt-chassis, etc. I was perusing the vintage computer marketplace a few weeks back, and someone had some of that very stuff. I think it may even have been Erik. In any event I don't know how to contact anyone on that site anymore, because someone gummed up the works LOL. please let me know. Much obliged. From info at mewgull.com Sat Jul 17 16:53:56 2010 From: info at mewgull.com (Mewgull Associates Limited) Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2010 22:53:56 +0100 Subject: ez80 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2BE6CF2C-96B9-4AD1-8971-26B3DFD3ADD0@mewgull.com> On 17 Jul 2010, at 19:01, Tony Duell wrote: >> >> Hi Jeff, >> >> Interesting article. I am a big fan of the ez80f91. I find the data = > > You know you've been (hardware) hacking too long when you read the > subject: line of this message and assume it's going to be about a biphase > valve rectifier with a 6.3V heater and a B9A (noval) base. Yes, that did > happen to me... Me too..... From markellis at cox.net Sat Jul 17 17:15:37 2010 From: markellis at cox.net (Mark Ellis) Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2010 15:15:37 -0700 Subject: Quadlink by Quadram - put an Apple II in you PC Message-ID: Hi, I realize that this is a really long shot, but would you still happen to have the Quadlink setup? A friend of mine has been looking for one forever! Thanks, Mark E. From teoz at neo.rr.com Sat Jul 17 18:09:44 2010 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2010 19:09:44 -0400 Subject: 17" CRT - Worth Keeping? References: Message-ID: <2716CAC4EBE5423CB3815A8713035957@dell8300> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brian Lanning" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Saturday, July 17, 2010 4:39 PM Subject: Re: 17" CRT - Worth Keeping? > On Sat, Jul 17, 2010 at 2:46 PM, Tony Duell > wrote: >> 2) It does something that modern monitors don't (supports a particular >> scan rate, for example) > > I much agree. A few monitors out there support scan rates down to > 15khz. These work on amigas and are highly sought after. The NEC 3D > was an example iirc. So check the specs before you trash them. > > brian I spotted a NEC 3Ds at the recycler last weekend, too bad it didn't work or I would have snagged it in a minute (turned on but screen stayed dark). Those old monitors are starting to die out. From ajp166 at verizon.net Sat Jul 17 18:22:59 2010 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2010 19:22:59 -0400 Subject: ez80 In-Reply-To: <4C421613.4000601@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4C421613.4000601@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4C423B53.8060708@verizon.net> On 07/17/2010 04:44 PM, Ben wrote: > Tony Duell wrote: >>> >>> Hi Jeff, >>> >>> Interesting article. I am a big fan of the ez80f91. I find the data = >> >> You know you've been (hardware) hacking too long when you read the >> subject: line of this message and assume it's going to be about a >> biphase >> valve rectifier with a 6.3V heater and a B9A (noval) base. Yes, that did >> happen to me... > > Not me , I am using 6X4's. :) > >> -tony >> > > Ben. > PS. Any tube experts out there? I need ideas to keep my hum down > on preamp with a 6X4 and 6CG7. > > > > Make sure neither valve has a heater to cathode leakage. Insure the DC bus is clean as a common old valve gear problem is dried up electrolytics. Try grounding the other side of the filament string or float the heater string (insure neither side of the heater winding on the power transformer is grounded. I've also put a 100ohm 2W pot across the heater winding and grounded the slider to be able to balance the heater voltage against ground. If all else fails run the heaters on DC. Allison From cclist at sydex.com Sat Jul 17 18:39:42 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2010 16:39:42 -0700 Subject: ez80 In-Reply-To: References: <20352D51F68C4538AD7FC6A39DF0A932@mepyx48u51877c> from "Rick" at Jul 16, 10 10:49:32 pm, Message-ID: <4C41DCCE.11678.1DA2CFA@cclist.sydex.com> On 17 Jul 2010 at 19:01, Tony Duell wrote: > You know you've been (hardware) hacking too long when you read the > subject: line of this message and assume it's going to be about a > biphase valve rectifier with a 6.3V heater and a B9A (noval) base. > Yes, that did happen to me... Wrong side of the pond--here, it's a 6V4, not to be confused with a type 80 rectifier (5V 4 pin base). ez80 meant only one thing to me-- the Zilog chip. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sat Jul 17 18:43:46 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2010 16:43:46 -0700 Subject: Amlyn Minipac diskette changer In-Reply-To: References: , <4C41649B.7546.4A61F@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4C41DDC2.21327.1DDE4E1@cclist.sydex.com> On 17 Jul 2010 at 16:16, Steven Hirsch wrote: > I pulled down a copy of their patent application for the unit and it > almost looks like the Minipac diskettes have some sort of pre-written > servo track. Perhaps the unit can actually write this servo, but > without documentation I'm just surmising. Could be. It sounds a bit like the Drivetec drives of the same time period. Something like (ISTR) 192 tpi, using an embedded servo, making factory-formatted disks mandatory, something that probably did more to kill the drive than anything else. I've still got a couple of the Kodak/Drivetecs with media from Dysan, but basically they exist for the eventuality that someone, somewhere has data written on one of these that they need to get at. --Chuck From rdawson16 at hotmail.com Sat Jul 17 18:46:35 2010 From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson) Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2010 18:46:35 -0500 Subject: Tek fiches found! (was: Looking for Tektronix 4051 programs...) In-Reply-To: <4C4217BC.4080005@axeside.co.uk> References: , , <4BFE0F1A.6070600@mail.msu.edu> , <4C02B9BE.7010802@axeside.co.uk>, <4C4217BC.4080005@axeside.co.uk> Message-ID: Philip, A few of us are building a Tektronix museum here in Beaverton. I have forwarded your mail to Ed Sinclair, (eds at vintagetek.otrg) principal on the project. He has a 4051. Also a bunch of tapes with the belt and capstan degrade problem, and I mentioned the idea of transplanting the media to a new dc300 cartridge. anybody who has done this and offer hints and kinks is welcome to the discussion! Ive moved and salvaged VCR tape, but never a 3m data cartridge. Randy > Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2010 21:51:08 +0100 > From: philip at axeside.co.uk > To: > Subject: Tek fiches found! (was: Looking for Tektronix 4051 programs...) > > Back in May I said > > > Some microfiches of Tek manuals, including a large number of issues of > > the 4050 Series Software Library Newsletter (later Tekniques magazine). > > It was one of these that I printed out in order to type in the > > Christmas card program. > > > > The microfiches were given me by someone in Tek UK when I was > > researching the talk I gave at the VCF in Santa Clara in 1998. I never > > wrote and thanked them, for which I feel horribly guilty. > > > > If someone has the equipment to scan microfiches, and is prepared to put > > in the time to sort the stuff and get it online, I shall be happy to > > hand them over. I could probably scan some manuals too - I think the > > scanner at work will do the A3 or ANSI B pages. > > I've found my Tek microfiche collection! > > Twenty-nine fiches (although some have only a few sheets, and one has > only a single sheet) with marketing announcements, brochures, manuals, > and a lot of back issues of the 4050 series newsletter (which later > became Tekniques magazine) > > I'd like to see this preserved - does anyone have a scanner that will do > fiche, and the time to work on these to get good quality scans? If so, > I'll lend you the fiches. > > The size reduction seems to be about 24 times, so to get the equivalent > of 400dpi from the originals you need to scan at 9600dpi. I'm not sure > whether the quality is there, though. > > (I just asked my scanner to have a go at the first page, and it's been > sitting thinking about it for nearly half an hour now. I think that's > because it has to synthesise the higher resolutions from several scans, > or something, but even so.) > > Philip. > _________________________________________________________________ The New Busy is not the old busy. Search, chat and e-mail from your inbox. http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_3 From lproven at gmail.com Sat Jul 17 20:02:37 2010 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2010 02:02:37 +0100 Subject: Any former Psion 5 owners out there? In-Reply-To: <4C417602.5090100@axeside.co.uk> References: <4C409C2E.8060705@axeside.co.uk> <4C417602.5090100@axeside.co.uk> Message-ID: On 17 July 2010 10:21, Philip Belben wrote: > Liam, quoting me: > >>> But why "former Psion 5 owners", on this list of all places? ?I have >>> never >>> owned a Psion 5 - but I use my Psion 3c daily! >> >> Well, true - but there is nothing quite like the Series 3 any more and >> I don't think there ever will be again. Frankly, although there were >> things I really missed about my various S3s, the S5s were better in so >> many important or significant ways that I never considered moving >> back. > > Sorry if I sounded as though I was starting a Psion 3 vs 5 war. ?That was > far from my intention! Me either. Sorry... > I was merely saying that this is Classiccmp! ?You don't look on Classiccmp > for _former_ owners of nice machines, but for people who still use them! > ?And not just the Psion 5 - your post is equally relevant to people like me > who use the 3. ?Or the HP 95, 100 and 200 palmtops. ?Or plenty of other > machines. :?) That's true and a good point. I have disposed of all my S5s while they were still working and worth half-decent money, something I now vaguely regret. Instead, I had a netBook - well, a 7Book - that I still used regularly up until 2008. Very rarely do now, though - my Nokia Communicator E90 has pretty much replaced it. >> I preferred the S3 interface, the keyboard shortcuts, the file/program >> manager and much more, but the S5 was so much more capable, I never >> regretted moving. >> >> I'd give a lot for a modern S5 type device, but I would never go back >> to an S3 today, I'm afraid... > > Fair enough. ?I'm not criticising you for it. > > I got my first two Psion 3 machines when they were withdrawing the Psion 5 > at work. ?We were asked to find any Psion 5 machines lying around and send > them in for recycling :-( ?On a shelf we found a box with two Psion 3c > machines in instead. ?Since we hadn't been asked to return those, I kept > them. ?(With the former user's blessing, I may add) Glad you saved the 3s but it's terribly sad to hear about the 5s. > I never had much exposure to the Psion 5. ?I don't much like touch screens > [*] - and the touch screens of that period wore out quickly, IIRC - and the > hinge on the 5 was even more complicated and liable to fail than that on the > 3. Oddly, actually, I had more problems with my various 3s. The touchpad icons used to regularly fail, or the hinge would break. I did have S5 breakages but more rarely. > So what was nice about the 5? ?I'm not asking you to justify yourself; I'm > genuinely curious! > > On the subject of Psions, the two common failure modes on the 3: cracked > hinge, and leaky backup circuit. ?By the latter I mean something in the > circuitry that remains active when the main battery fails - clock, memory, > not much else - starts drawing excessive current, and the machine flattens > the backup cell in about a day, whether the main battery is in or not. ?Does > anyone know what causes this? ?I have two old main boards with this symptom, > which I must reverse-engineer. ?One day... > > Philip. > > [*] ... but prefer keyboards. ?Which is why your original post was so > welcome! Hmm. Tricky, in a way. The 3s were a programmable PDA, a closed architecture which wasn't very extensible. Great at what they did, the best I ever had, saw, tried or even read about, but limited. The 5s were miniature computers. They could, at a push, do the Web and email; they used CF cards, for cheap big storage; they had a proper keyboard I could type at speed on, and a wordprocessor with a wordcount function, something *absolutely* essential in a text editor for me. I can live without almost anything else so long as I have a usable full-screen editor and a wordcount. Guess what my 3 and 3a's wordprocessor didn't have. I read books on my 5s, as PDFs. I ran Sinclair Spectrum apps in emulators and Infocom games under a Z interpreter. I backed up, synched, sorted and managed my mobile phone's 2 address books and the SMS message store - I also routinely texted from the S5 with its excellent keyboard. Just the thing if you needed to send a text to multiple people, or cut'n'paste. I had it set up to automatically back itself up to my laptop over infrared, just when it was nearby and in line-of-sight. That's aside from a whole host of 3rd party software which I could just download and send over. I wrote many thousands of words on my 5s and 5MXs; in terms of articles I sold, it paid for itself inside 6 months. Probably less - I seem to recall that within a month or so of getting my 5, I wrote a magazine feature on it during a long coach trip that meant that the little machine had recouped its ?300-?400 price with the first 5,000 words or so I wrote on it. (I did also write a short book on the 3A once. It crashed and lost the lot. A very, very rare occurrence, but as always, at the worst possible time; I'd been away travelling for a month and had no way to back it up.) OK, so, the 5's file manager was a smidge more awkward, and because everything was optimised for the touchscreen, the apps weren't so easily keyboard-controlled. Fewer hotkeys, which were inconsistent with the previous machine and with each other in places. The stylus latch tended to stick, too. But overall, it was a brilliant bit of kit, a lot more versatile than my much-loved 3 and 3A. I never got as far as a 3C or 3MX, sadly. The Series 5 had the single best form factor of any pocket computer or PDA of any kind ever, and by a country mile the best keyboard of any pocket-sized device of any kind, ever; so good it makes things like the Blackberry or any QWERTY phone look like a sad, sick joke. And furthermore, I would assert and defend the position that those are absolute, objective judgements, not my personal subjective preferences. The software stack was stunning and is still impressive today. It's not just me, either: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/06/26/psion_special/print.html The Psion 3 was brilliant. For me it was a life-transforming device, vastly more useful than my Psion Organizer II LZ64 ever had been. It was the ultimate pocket organizer, calendar, address book, diary, alarm clock, etc. It was a masterpiece of industrial design and software efficiency. The Psion 5, though, was all this as well plus a whole lot more; a connected communication tool which could interchange files and media with desktop PCs, sync with PC desktop PIM tools and more besides. It was effortlessly better for me than anything Palm ever produced (and yes, I owned several), less clever but far more practical than the Apple Newton (and yes, I owned several), and made the PC-compatible pocket computers (Atari Portfolio, HP LX and Omnigo, Poqet etc.) look like pathetic also-rans. Psion were right in the long term: eventually, phones would kill off their niche. However even today no phone has ever been produced that can equal the overall usefulness of the Psion 5. To be a phone something has to be relatively small and able to slip into a trouser pocket. This means it needs to be tiny, with tiny buttons and a tiny screen, and for me, as a PDA, that means phones are too limited and too constrained to really excel. I have about the biggest modern 3G phone it's possible to get, a 5-inch-long Nokia E90, and it's *too damned small*. Although it has vastly more functions than my Series 5s did, the things it shares with the S5, in /every single one/ the S5 did it better, more powerfully, more flexibly, and usually quicker. And it's based on the same OS! Frankly, I'd happily swap my E90 for a modern Series 5 and a modern Nokia 6310i. The phone should be the identical form factor, but updated to a quad-band LTE modem with basic smartphone functions, and it would link with a modern Psion equivalent with a gigahertz-class CPU, a transreflective colour screen, a few gig of storage, USB instead of serial, Wifi and Bluetooth as well as infrared and a couple of SD slots in place of the CF slot. But I don't think such devices will ever come round again, sadly. I'll probably get a Dell Streak and curse at it. -- Liam Proven ? Profile & links: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From jfoust at threedee.com Sat Jul 17 22:17:30 2010 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2010 22:17:30 -0500 Subject: Fwd: [GreenKeys] Nice ASR-33 for sale Message-ID: <201007180317.o6I3HoF0094293@billY.EZWIND.NET> >To: greenkeys at mailman.qth.net >From: milgram at cgpp.com >Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2010 23:12:00 -0400 >Subject: [GreenKeys] Nice ASR-33 for sale > > > >Selling my Dad's old ASR-33. Works, but a little cleaning and lube >wouldn't hurt. Never a school machine - in private use since new. Comes >with an Anderson-Jacobson modem and some manuals. > >Details, movie, photos at http://www.cgpp.com/asr33/ > >ebay listing is: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=140428991870 > >regards to all, > >Judah Milgram > >milgram at cgpp.com >______________________________________________________________ >GreenKeys mailing list >Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/greenkeys >Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm >Post: mailto:GreenKeys at mailman.qth.net > >This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net >Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html From marvin at west.net Sat Jul 17 23:35:05 2010 From: marvin at west.net (Marvin Johnston) Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2010 21:35:05 -0700 Subject: 10 Vintage Ads that Time Forgot Message-ID: <4C428479.30200@west.net> I was reading Mashable, and they had these videos; most interesting! http://mashable.com/2010/07/17/vintage-apple-ads/ From snhirsch at gmail.com Sat Jul 17 17:43:02 2010 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2010 18:43:02 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Amlyn Minipac diskette changer In-Reply-To: <17A707A5-03D7-4255-B450-9CFCCB476F47@microspot.co.uk> References: <17A707A5-03D7-4255-B450-9CFCCB476F47@microspot.co.uk> Message-ID: On Sat, 17 Jul 2010, Roger Holmes wrote: >> From: Steven Hirsch >> Subject: Amlyn Minipac diskette changer >> >> Has anyone else on the list seen one of these? I picked up a Vista V1200 >> disk system for Apple 2 that uses this type of drive. The mechanism takes >> a plastic cartridge with five 5.25" floppy disks. The diskettes appear to >> be conventional SS format with a couple of extra punchouts to mate with >> the loader mechanism. Electrical interface is compatible with 8" floppy >> drives (interface card was also sold for that purpose). >> >> I'm not able to turn up any information about the drive and am wondering >> how the diskette select/load scheme is intended to work. There are >> at least a couple of possibilities: >> >> - Treat the physical diskettes as portions of a single logical floppy and >> select diskette by track range (first diskette 0-39, second 40-79, etc.) >> >> - Treat each physical diskette as a logical drive and use binary select >> lines on interface to choose. >> >> Anyone have documentation on the drive mechanism or the Vista product? > > I had a very similar unit for the Apple 3. As I remember it looked like > a single 6MB drive to the OS. I don't think that would have been > possible on Apple 2. It was only possible if you patched DOS RWTS by adding the driver and geometry. > Earlier I had a 5MB ICE hard drive on an Apple 2 > which looked like 35 floppy disks to DOS. It might have looked different > under UCSD Pascal, maybe you could have a single large file, but its a > long time ago, I just can't remember. There were many storage subsystems that extended the capacity of DOS 3.3. Usually your choices of size were limited, however. The Sider was one of the add-ons that supported this. Steve -- From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Sun Jul 18 04:19:36 2010 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2010 11:19:36 +0200 Subject: 68K (ISA) project In-Reply-To: <293781.24598.qm@web65506.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> References: <293781.24598.qm@web65506.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: From: "Chris M" Sent: Saturday, July 17, 2010 8:37 PM To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: 68K (ISA) project > >> On 15 Jul 2010 at 19:08, Henk Gooijen >> wrote: >> >> > Building an SBC (for any "old" processor) is not too >> difficult ... the question is *what* are you planning to do >> with it? Do you have a purpose? Building just for the >> "building" is not very long lasting ... > > I sort of beg to differ. Writing competent firmware doesn't seem to be > such an easy task. Sure building a small board w/ultra minimal firmware > shouldn't be too bad, even the designing part. But I've been eyeing this > Robot Brain (80188 based) board in Radio Electronics, and I doubt that too > many people on this list would have the skill to design that from the > ground up (I imagine there are exceptions though). I do have the artwork > and most or all of the firmware, so I am going to build one. Soon... > Most people will simply want to copy something from a textbook or > magazine. If anyone wanted to develop something useful, a FPGA replacement > for some unobtainium chip or whatever makes much more sense to me. And > even that is something of a steep learning curve. Oh, we agree! With "building" I only meant the soldering job. Writing firmware from scratch can be tedious, I know, been there! My first 68k design did not work for over 4 weeks until I soldered a "tool" to see the state of several pins of the 68k at the same time. Back then I only had a 2 channel scope, which were few channels short :-) The mistake was fairly simple (always is when you know it). As coming from 8-bit 6800/6809, I initialized the stackpointer A7 to the highest RAM address. The firmware did work up till the first BSR. Yeah, the stackpointer must be on an even address ... Starting with a real 68k is easy. I agree that FPGA programming has a steep learning curve. I started several times, but never really got through it. Too easily distracted to other "easier" projects, but one day I will get a good start at FPGA stuff. - Henk. From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Jul 18 10:10:20 2010 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2010 08:10:20 -0700 Subject: Tek fiches found! In-Reply-To: <4C4217BC.4080005@axeside.co.uk> References: , <4BFE0F1A.6070600@mail.msu.edu> <4C02B9BE.7010802@axeside.co.uk> <4C4217BC.4080005@axeside.co.uk> Message-ID: <4C43195C.6090800@bitsavers.org> On 7/17/10 1:51 PM, Philip Belben wrote: > I'd like to see this preserved - does anyone have a scanner that will do > fiche, and the time to work on these to get good quality scans? If so, > I'll lend you the fiches. > I have a fiche scanner, and have some 4050 fiche queued up to do. From cctech at vax-11.org Sun Jul 18 11:19:33 2010 From: cctech at vax-11.org (cctech at vax-11.org) Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2010 10:19:33 -0600 (MDT) Subject: What is OBA11-VA? In-Reply-To: <00a701cb08ea$fe028aa0$fa079fe0$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> References: <00a701cb08ea$fe028aa0$fa079fe0$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: I ran across a DEC OBA11-VA (attached to a dual TU58 drive) while sorting my junk room. Anyone have a link to documentation or any information on it? From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Sun Jul 18 12:33:33 2010 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2010 18:33:33 +0100 Subject: What is OBA11-VA? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: BA11-VA seems to be an expansion box, so the contents may give you more clue (board part numbers) manual for BA11-VA is BA11-VA Configuration Guide Digital Equipment Corporation EK-BA11V-RG BA11-VA is mentioned in ( EK-0TU58-UG-004 1983-12 TU58 DECtape II User Guide 4.5.3 Mounting the TU58-VA to the SB11 (or BA11-VA) Dave Caroline On Sun, Jul 18, 2010 at 5:19 PM, wrote: > > I ran across a DEC OBA11-VA (attached to a dual TU58 drive) while sorting my > junk room. Anyone have a link to documentation or any information on it? > > > From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Jul 18 12:55:40 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2010 13:55:40 -0400 Subject: ez80 In-Reply-To: <20352D51F68C4538AD7FC6A39DF0A932@mepyx48u51877c> References: <20352D51F68C4538AD7FC6A39DF0A932@mepyx48u51877c> Message-ID: <4C43401C.5000006@neurotica.com> On 7/17/10 1:49 AM, Rick wrote: > Interesting article. I am a big fan of the ez80f91. I find the data throughput rate so efficient that it's hard to over tax the CPU. I've built some pretty elaborate hardware/software systems using it! One thing I've been curious about and I want to try this myself some time. I wonder if anyone's ever built an LCD controller using the ez80? I believe it should be possible to get VGA quality out of it. I too love the eZ80F91. I've done a few commercial designs with it. It is a seriously fast processor with a wonderful feature set for embedded applications, and the familiarity (to me) of the Z80 instruction set just makes the firmware work that much more enjoyable. I've mostly moved to ARM7 for those types of applications now...If Zilog would wake up and port their compilers to modern platforms, I'd probably be using eZ80F91s as much as (or more than) ARM7 these days. Sadly it seems their management doesn't listen, though. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jul 18 13:28:26 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2010 19:28:26 +0100 (BST) Subject: ez80 In-Reply-To: <4C421613.4000601@jetnet.ab.ca> from "Ben" at Jul 17, 10 02:44:03 pm Message-ID: > > Tony Duell wrote: > >> > >> Hi Jeff, > >> > >> Interesting article. I am a big fan of the ez80f91. I find the data = > > > > You know you've been (hardware) hacking too long when you read the > > subject: line of this message and assume it's going to be about a biphase > > valve rectifier with a 6.3V heater and a B9A (noval) base. Yes, that did > > happen to me... > > Not me , I am using 6X4's. :) Err, that's an EZ90, surely? 7 pin B7G base. > > > -tony > > > > Ben. > PS. Any tube experts out there? I need ideas to keep my hum down > on preamp with a 6X4 and 6CG7. Have you built it and are getting hum? If so, my first question is 'what frequency'. Hum from the heaters or stray magnetic fields from the power transformer will be at mains freqeuncy (60Hz for you, I guess), HT (B+) hum would be at twice that (due to the full wave rectifier). One trick in finding hum sources is to power bits (temporarily) off batteries. The heaters could be run from a 6V battery so suitable capacity. For the HT (B+), you don't need much current in a preamp. I think I'd connect a lot of 9V batteries (or those 12V car key batteries) in series for testing .Once you've found where the hum is coming from, it;s a lot easier to get rid of it. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jul 18 13:33:51 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2010 19:33:51 +0100 (BST) Subject: 17" CRT - Worth Keeping? In-Reply-To: <2716CAC4EBE5423CB3815A8713035957@dell8300> from "Teo Zenios" at Jul 17, 10 07:09:44 pm Message-ID: > I spotted a NEC 3Ds at the recycler last weekend, too bad it didn't work or > I would have snagged it in a minute (turned on but screen stayed dark). You mean you didn't grab it anyway to see if the fault was fixable (or even easy to fix)? I think I would at least have taken it home to see if the EHT was coming up (actually, you might have been able to 'feel' that anyway) and if the CRT heaters were alight. the fault could be something as simple as dried-up capacitors > Those old monitors are starting to die out. Particularly if people assume that any one that doesn't work can't be repaired... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jul 18 13:36:47 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2010 19:36:47 +0100 (BST) Subject: ez80 In-Reply-To: <4C423B53.8060708@verizon.net> from "allison" at Jul 17, 10 07:22:59 pm Message-ID: > Make sure neither valve has a heater to cathode leakage. Insure the DC It used to be common to run the rectifier heater off its own winding, and tie one end of that (or the centre tap if there is one) to the rectifier cathode. Then a bit of h-k leakage does little if any harm. > bus is clean > as a common old valve gear problem is dried up electrolytics. Try > grounding the other > side of the filament string or float the heater string (insure neither > side of the heater The better power transformers have centre-tapped heater windings (3.15-0-3.15V). Try earthing the tap (rather than one side). > winding on the power transformer is grounded. I've also put a 100ohm 2W pot > across the heater winding and grounded the slider to be able to balance > the heater Commonly called a 'humdinger' in the UK :-) > voltage against ground. If all else fails run the heaters on DC. Certainly for testing. RRun the heaters off a battery. If the hum goes away, at least you know where it's coming from. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jul 18 13:16:56 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2010 19:16:56 +0100 (BST) Subject: 17" CRT - Worth Keeping? In-Reply-To: <548744.40342.qm@web65502.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> from "Chris M" at Jul 17, 10 10:13:08 am Message-ID: > > personally I love old monitors. This ones seems especially instersting > being it has BNC jacks. What's so interesting about BNC input sockets? Making adaptor cables from BNC connectors to other types of connector is not normally difficult, and to be honest doing sync separation (e.g. to use a separte-sync montor with a sync-on-green computer) is a lot easier than converting scan rates or something like that. > I'd stick it in the closet, or in the yard inside 2 or 3 very sturdy > plastic bags. If Adrian gets his way, there won't be a single one left > in the entire UK! Can you expalin, please? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jul 18 13:44:38 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2010 19:44:38 +0100 (BST) Subject: ez80 In-Reply-To: <4C41DCCE.11678.1DA2CFA@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Jul 17, 10 04:39:42 pm Message-ID: > > On 17 Jul 2010 at 19:01, Tony Duell wrote: > > > You know you've been (hardware) hacking too long when you read the > > subject: line of this message and assume it's going to be about a > > biphase valve rectifier with a 6.3V heater and a B9A (noval) base. > > Yes, that did happen to me... > > Wrong side of the pond--here, it's a 6V4, not to be confused with a This _is_ an international list... Is it just me, or are the common US valve numbers pretty much meaningless. The common UK/European ones, used by Philips/Mullard [1] can be easily decoded to give the heater rating, electrode structure and base type. US ones don't seem to give the electrode structure in any meaningful way, even though that it probably the most important thing [2]. [1] There were other codes used by manufacturers in Europe. One farily common one was the Mazda code. It looks like a US valve number (digits, letters, digits), but it's decoded in a totally different way. The first digits give the heater voltage _unless they're 10, 20, or 30, which means 100mA, 200mA, 300mA for sereis-string sets), the letter gives the electrode structure (things like 'C' = frequency changer, 'L' = triode, 'P' = pentode, 'D' = diode) but you dont' double up letters for repeated structures -- a double triode is 'L' not 'LL' And the last digits simply give unique numbers to valves which have the first part identical. A 6D1 is a single diode (==EA50 IIRC), a 6D2 is a double diode (EB91/6AL5), a 30P4 is a TV line output pentode, and so on [2] Reminds me of a the large electronic component distributor over here that let you select 3 terminal fixed regulators by just aobut every possible characteristic (case type, number of pins, max temperature , etc) _other than the output voltage. Odd, that' the thing I think of first when specifying such a component. > type 80 rectifier (5V 4 pin base). ez80 meant only one thing to me-- Ah, the type 80 I have come across... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jul 18 13:25:12 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2010 19:25:12 +0100 (BST) Subject: 17" CRT - Worth Keeping? In-Reply-To: from "Brian Lanning" at Jul 17, 10 03:39:45 pm Message-ID: > > On Sat, Jul 17, 2010 at 2:46 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > > 2) It does something that modern monitors don't (supports a particular > > scan rate, for example) > > I much agree. A few monitors out there support scan rates down to > 15khz. These work on amigas and are highly sought after. The NEC 3D > was an example iirc. So check the specs before you trash them. FWIW, a lot of current UK LCD (and I assume plasma) TVs have RGB inputs at TV rates (15.625kHz horizonatal in the UK) onthe SCART socket. I assume those will work with older computers expecting a TV-rate monitor, although how good the quality would be I don't know. But then I'm keeping a number of old CRT TV-rate-only monitors for my classics too. My favourite is a delta-gun CRT unit made by Barco. It's built like a tank, everything is on separate plug-in boards (3 separate boards for the RGB amplifiers, a sync separatoe board, horizontal output, EHT generator, horixontal defleciton, vertical deflectiuon and output, convergence, and half a doze boards in the PSU -- and that's just the ones I rememebr). Oh, and you get an exztender board clipped inside... Fortunately I have the 'user' manual. It's got one page telling you how to use the brightness and video gain controls. a few more pages on how to rack-mount the unit. Then setup instructions. And finally many pages of schematics, theory of operation and waveforms. That's the sort of user manual I like :-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jul 18 14:31:37 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2010 20:31:37 +0100 (BST) Subject: What is OBA11-VA? In-Reply-To: from "cctech@vax-11.org" at Jul 18, 10 10:19:33 am Message-ID: > > > I ran across a DEC OBA11-VA (attached to a dual TU58 drive) while sorting > my junk room. Anyone have a link to documentation or any information on it? A BA11-V is a small Qbus mounting box, the same size as a TU58. IIRC it contains 4 dual-height Q-bus slots (probably Q18 only) and a PSU. The auffix 'A' may mean it's set for 115V mains. I have no idea what the prefix 'O' means I beleive some model of TU58 didn't have an internal PSU, rather it took power from the PSU of a BA11-V that it was bolted to. May be worth checking. What (if anything) is in the Qbus slots of the BA11-V? [As an aside, the BA11-V was not uncommon in the UK as the housing for what was known as a 'York Box'. This was a unit to connect standard-ish hosts (PERQs and VAXen mostly I think) to the then-current X25 network. The BA11-V contains an SBC21 ('Falcon') CPU card, a RAM card (32Kw, I forget the model number, but it's the standard one), a DPV11 (sync serial port to connect to the X25 line) and a DR11 (parallel interface). The host was conenected either to the DRV11 (using, perhaps a DR11 in a VAX) or to one of the RS232 ports (async) on the SBC21)] -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jul 18 14:25:23 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2010 20:25:23 +0100 (BST) Subject: Any former Psion 5 owners out there? In-Reply-To: from "Liam Proven" at Jul 18, 10 02:02:37 am Message-ID: > The Psion 5, though, was all this as well plus a whole lot more; a > connected communication tool which could interchange files and media > with desktop PCs, sync with PC desktop PIM tools and more besides. It > was effortlessly better for me than anything Palm ever produced (and > yes, I owned several), less clever but far more practical than the > Apple Newton (and yes, I owned several), and made the PC-compatible > pocket computers (Atari Portfolio, HP LX and Omnigo, Poqet etc.) look > like pathetic also-rans. The HP95LX/100LX (and I assume the 200LX, although I have never used one) have 1 feature that is essential for me, and another that is highly desirable. The first is a good terminal emulator, with plain text, kermit and xmodem up/down loading. For working on classic computers (which is what I do all the time, of course), a machine that will fit in my pocket or sit on top of a cardcage and which will let me grab data from a serial port, or work as a consolr on a PDP11 or VAX and then let me upload any captured data to another machine (any other machine -- kermit runs on just about everything I own) is very handy. The standard serial cable terminates in a DE9 socket, wired as a DCE (so you can plug it straight into a PC serial port to transfer data to/from the PC). Since I have several of the 4-pin HP serial cables, I modified one by cutting off the PC connector and soldering a DB25 plug wired as a DTE (with the handshake lines strapped together). This means I can use my 95LX as a terminal without needing any other adapters. The seocnd feature, the one I find highly desirable is the calculator. It has an RPN mode, you see. And having got used to such machines, there is no way I would go back. The other thing I need in a palmtop is a text editor. Since I format text with LaTeX if I want a formatted document, I don't need a word processor on the palmtop, just a way of creating and editing text files. The HP's hae a suitable editor, I think other palmtops do too. The thing I most certainly do not want is automatic synchronisation with desktop PC applicators. It's extremely unlikely I use those appliations anyway, and there is problably no documentation on how to transfer data to/from anything else. I prefer standard transfer systems (Kermit, Xmodem), I'll work out how to updata the files on the PC... Or course your needs are probably very different to mine. But for me the HP95LX does what I want. other machines don't. The one thing I miss is a built-in programming lagnuage (you don't even get DEBUG on the European models). But I can live with that. -tony From tshoppa at wmata.com Sun Jul 18 15:26:18 2010 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim) Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2010 16:26:18 -0400 Subject: What is OBA11-VA? Message-ID: > I ran across a DEC OBA11-VA (attached to a dual TU58 drive) while sorting > my junk room. Anyone have a link to documentation or any information on it? The BA11-VA was a small Q-bus enclosure with power supply. Most often, in the "SB11' system, it enclosed an LSI-11/03 equipped with a MXV11 and sometimes extra serial lines like DLV11J and sometimes a GPIB card (IBV11?) or general purpose parallel I/O. If yours had TU58's attached it was probably used like a small industrial/scientific controller or data logger or development system. Sometimes they had custom applicatons burnt into the EPROM in the MXV11, other times they just used a regular bootloader and booted RT-11 from TU58 which than ran the application. Look inside and see if you've got IBV11's or other I/O type cards. Up through the 90's similar small desktop Q-bus chassis were sold by MTI and Andromeda for similar purposes (although by the 90's with more modern peripherals than the TU58!) I traveled with an Andromeda Q-bus system a lot in the 90's. Tim. From brianlanning at gmail.com Sun Jul 18 15:43:54 2010 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2010 15:43:54 -0500 Subject: 17" CRT - Worth Keeping? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Jul 18, 2010 at 1:25 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> I much agree. ?A few monitors out there support scan rates down to >> 15khz. ?These work on amigas and are highly sought after. ?The NEC 3D >> was an example iirc. ?So check the specs before you trash them. > > FWIW, a lot of current UK LCD (and I assume plasma) TVs have RGB inputs > at TV rates (15.625kHz horizonatal in the UK) onthe SCART socket. I > assume those will work with older computers expecting a TV-rate monitor, > although how good the quality would be I don't know. I keep forgetting about these. They do work. But I know some people dislike the look of LCDs, prefering tubes instead. CRTs are obviously much better at displaying a variety of resolutions, whereas LCDs tend to like their native resolution. At the lower resolutions of ntsc/pal, any high resolution LCD is likely to look good anyway. The indivision VGA adapter for amigas has a mode that puts the black horizontal scan lines back into the LCD display for that vintage look. I wouldn't go that far though. brian From als at thangorodrim.de Sun Jul 18 15:50:34 2010 From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber) Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2010 22:50:34 +0200 Subject: Any former Psion 5 owners out there? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20100718205034.GA20055@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> Hi, On Sun, Jul 18, 2010 at 08:25:23PM +0100, Tony Duell wrote: > > The Psion 5, though, was all this as well plus a whole lot more; a > > connected communication tool which could interchange files and media > > with desktop PCs, sync with PC desktop PIM tools and more besides. It > > was effortlessly better for me than anything Palm ever produced (and > > yes, I owned several), less clever but far more practical than the > > Apple Newton (and yes, I owned several), and made the PC-compatible > > pocket computers (Atari Portfolio, HP LX and Omnigo, Poqet etc.) look > > like pathetic also-rans. > > The HP95LX/100LX (and I assume the 200LX, although I have never used one) > have 1 feature that is essential for me, and another that is highly > desirable. > > The first is a good terminal emulator, with plain text, kermit and xmodem > up/down loading. For working on classic computers (which is what I do all > the time, of course), a machine that will fit in my pocket or sit on top > of a cardcage and which will let me grab data from a serial port, or work > as a consolr on a PDP11 or VAX and then let me upload any captured data > to another machine (any other machine -- kermit runs on just about > everything I own) is very handy. Speaking from personal experience, the HP200LX makes for a great mobile serial terminal. I've used it with various machines, sitting behind the rack (warmed by the machine exhaust fans *g*). > The other thing I need in a palmtop is a text editor. Since I format text > with LaTeX if I want a formatted document, I don't need a word processor > on the palmtop, just a way of creating and editing text files. The HP's > hae a suitable editor, I think other palmtops do too. I started writing my diploma thesis on the HP200LX with LaTeX, but later moved to my Linux workstation as I started to include graphics. > The thing I most certainly do not want is automatic synchronisation with > desktop PC applicators. It's extremely unlikely I use those appliations > anyway, and there is problably no documentation on how to transfer data > to/from anything else. I prefer standard transfer systems (Kermit, > Xmodem), I'll work out how to updata the files on the PC... There seems to be a dominating mindset that sees mobile devices (like palmtops) just as extensions of ones desktop. To someone like me, who uses them as mostly standalone devices, with occasionally copying data from/to them, that is rather silly. > Or course your needs are probably very different to mine. But for me the > HP95LX does what I want. other machines don't. The one thing I miss is a > built-in programming lagnuage (you don't even get DEBUG on the European > models). But I can live with that. Well, you can get various programming languages for DOS, among others, the Borland compilers come to mind (and Turbo C++ works quite well on my HP200LX). Kind regards, Alex. -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison From teoz at neo.rr.com Sun Jul 18 16:37:42 2010 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2010 17:37:42 -0400 Subject: 17" CRT - Worth Keeping? References: Message-ID: <4811E9E9A1FD4342BBC5F298F6FF85E2@dell8300> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Sunday, July 18, 2010 2:33 PM Subject: Re: 17" CRT - Worth Keeping? >> I spotted a NEC 3Ds at the recycler last weekend, too bad it didn't work >> or >> I would have snagged it in a minute (turned on but screen stayed dark). > > You mean you didn't grab it anyway to see if the fault was fixable (or > even easy to fix)? I think I would at least have taken it home to see if > the EHT was coming up (actually, you might have been able to 'feel' that > anyway) and if the CRT heaters were alight. the fault could be something > as simple as dried-up capacitors > >> Those old monitors are starting to die out. > > Particularly if people assume that any one that doesn't work can't be > repaired... > > -tony Fixing CRT monitors is not my specialty to be honest, and I have a NEC 3Ds in the basement with a fuzzy screen I would try to fix before I messed with one with a totally dead screen. I still have a Tandy CM-5 in the garage I need to looked at also, that one buzzes with no screen coming up. Anything can be repaired, its just a matter of time and money. From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Sun Jul 18 18:01:24 2010 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2010 19:01:24 -0400 Subject: 17" CRT - Worth Keeping? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C4387C4.4010806@compsys.to> >Brian Lanning wrote: >>On Sat, Jul 17, 2010 at 2:46 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > > >>2) It does something that modern monitors don't (supports a particular >>scan rate, for example) >> >I much agree. A few monitors out there support scan rates down to >15khz. These work on amigas and are highly sought after. The NEC 3D >was an example iirc. So check the specs before you trash them. > I thought I might add one additional criteria: Is there something that this monitor is capable of that most current monitors are unable to support. For example, I use E11 to run RT-11 on a system with a AUS X1050 Video card. The reason is that when I use full screen mode with 25 character lines, I want the monitor to display both 80 character text lines and 132 character text lines which is what a VT100 with the Advanced Video Option is capable of doing. I find that 132 character text lines are essential when I am displaying a LST file from the MACRO-11 assembler. Finding a Video card and monitor capable of that function was difficult (specifically the 132 character text lines - 80 character text lines are standard and will probably never be a problem) to say the least. Since the vast majority are flat screen monitors these days, finding a video card / monitor combination that supports 132 character text lines in full screen mode will continue to be a problem. So if your 17" CRT is special, then it is probably worth keeping. The only problem will be to find a replacement in the future if you ever depend on that special feature. Jerome Fine From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Sun Jul 18 18:02:54 2010 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2010 19:02:54 -0400 Subject: RTEM-11 In-Reply-To: <4C3F4D0C.6030603@softjar.se> References: <4C3F4D0C.6030603@softjar.se> Message-ID: <4C43881E.7040003@compsys.to> >Johnny Billquist wrote: >> I suspect that the most likely possibility is that RTEM and RTEM-11 >> are used. > > Huh? If you are suggesting that they would be the same, I can assure > you they could not. I would not assume anything until I actually had tested the presence or absence of a specific "feature". > A very common misconception these days seems to be that VAXen with > PDP-1 compatibility could run PDP-11 programs. That is only true in a > very limited sense. Only the basic PDP-11 instruction set is supported > by the VAX, and only the user mode stuff. EMTs, as well as any other > kind of traps, interrupts, and so on, was *not* supported. > When you execute an EMT in PDP-11 mode on a VAX, it will trap back to > VAX mode. No possibility to have a PDP-11 trap handler. The absence of a PDP-11 trap handler under VMS compatibility mode on a VAX is definitely one possible situation. However, I suggest that it may also be possible for RTEM under VMS on a VAX to handle some of the SJ RT-11 EMT requests. >> In addition, I also suspect that both Johnny and Ethan are correct in >> that RTEM >> was supported under both RSX and VMS on an older VAX which allowed >> compatibility mode. > > It would have to be totally separate products in that case. AGREED!! >> I don''t know if Megan Gentry is still around or perhaps Allison or >> one of the >> other DEC fellows. Perhaps they might at least know something about >> which >> hardware and operating system(s) supported RTEM? > > I definitely remember (and probably still have some mail somewhere) > from Megan mentioning that she used RTEM-11 for RT-11 work, running on > RSX machines. Possibly even an 11/74. I don't have enough information about RSX to know if RTEM-11 was supported. However, ... >> In addition, RSTS/E also supported RT-11 programs via the SWITCH RT11 >> capability. However, only the RT-11 EMTs which are used by a SJ are >> supported >> by RSTS/E. At least there is quite reasonable documentation as well >> as the ability >> to test and actually run RT-11 programs under RSTS/E up to the latest >> versions >> of RSTS/E. RT-11 EMTs for mapped RT-11 monitors (RT11XM) are not >> supported >> not are multi-terminal EMTs. Also, probably the latest RT-11 EMTs >> for file status >> information are also not supported under RSTS/E. > > The correct technical term is that RSTS/E have a RT-11 *run time > system*. An RTS in RSTS/E provides an environment under which you can > get a specific behaviour. So you had RTSes for RT-11, RSX, BASIC+, > TECO, DCL and some other stuff. Some RTSes were also KBMs (keyboard > monitors), meaning you could "switch" to them, and get an interactive > command line interpreter with that. But the RTS mostly implemented > system calls. However, there were RTSes which didn't implement any > system calls, and only gave you the basic calls RSTS/E itself > provided, and mostly focused on being a KBM, such as DCL. I apologize for my lack of familiarity with the terminology. Your description is what I was attempting to say. Actually, my testing seems to show that RSTS/E supports being able to run RT-11 programs even if the RT-11 RTS is not activated. For example: RUN MACRO is possible if the RTS is normal RSTS/E or RT-11. This might be based on the file type. RSTS/E may determine that MACRO.SAV is an RT-11 program and support the RT-11 EMT requests. Or RSTS/E may support naked RT-11 EMT requests from any program. That is something I should test. > > You can write you own RTS if you want to, and one think that have been > at the back of my mind is if it wouldn't be pretty easy to write a > Unix RTS for RSTS/E, so that you can run a bunch of Unix binaries > under RSTS/E as well. And interesting idea. However, I tend to assume that my present focus will probably occupy my time for about the next 40 to 50 years. > All exeutable files have an RTS associated with it, and when the > program is run, it is run under that RTS, which then handles all EMTs > and so on when the program executes them. Does the file type trigger the use of that RTS? >> Probably in the same manner as RSTS/E, if RTEM is supported under VMS >> on an >> older VAX, the most likely only the RT-11 EMTs which are used by a SJ >> are >> supported. > > Yes, RTEM-11 would most likely just provide a simple RT-11 > environment, such as SJ. As I said before, I can't really find any > proper information about any RT11 environment for VMS... But if it > existed, it would probably be just SJ as well. That would seem reasonable. I do have a question. With V7 of RSTS/E, the FIT program is able to copy files from a drive with an RT-11 file structure (such as an RX02) to the RSTS/E file structure. My initial testing with V10.1 of RSTS/E shows that (at the very least the distribution which I am using) does not have a FIT program. Is there some other method of making a copy of a file on an RX02 with an RT-11 file structure to a device with a RSTS/E file structure? Also, is it possible to run an RT-11 program under a DEBUG mode? It would be much easier to check out the code if that is possible. At the moment, I can check most of the code under RT-11. However, the portion which runs in a different manner under RSTS/E as opposed to RT-11 since RSTS/E does not support all RT-11 EMT requests in the same manner as RT-11. Jerome Fine From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jul 18 18:03:58 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2010 16:03:58 -0700 Subject: ez80 In-Reply-To: References: <4C41DCCE.11678.1DA2CFA@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Jul 17, 10 04:39:42 pm, Message-ID: <4C4325EE.16922.1C0221B@cclist.sydex.com> On 18 Jul 2010 at 19:44, Tony Duell wrote: > Is it just me, or are the common US valve numbers pretty much > meaningless. The common UK/European ones, used by Philips/Mullard [1] > can be easily decoded to give the heater rating, electrode structure > and base type. US ones don't seem to give the electrode structure in > any meaningful way, even though that it probably the most important > thing [2]. It depends. 0xxx = cold-cathode, gas filled, 6xxxx = 6.3V heater, 12xxxx = 12.6v heater, of course. 7xxx, 14xxx, loctal versions. The last number is generally the number of elements in earlier devices, but that's a give-or-take. So 5Y3 and 5U4 are both directly-heated cathode full-wave rectifiers. 5 or 6 = beam power tube or triode with dual diode section. 7 = indirectly heated cathode pentode, or combination oscillator-mixer (e.g. 6L7), also dual triode. 8 = pentagrid converter (e.g. 6A8). But it's all approximate. It's like navigating around Boston--if you lived there, you'd know where you were headed. --Chuck From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Jul 18 21:57:07 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2010 22:57:07 -0400 Subject: ez80 In-Reply-To: <4C4325EE.16922.1C0221B@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4C41DCCE.11678.1DA2CFA@cclist.sydex.com> <4C4325EE.16922.1C0221B@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > It's like navigating around Boston--if you lived there, you'd know > where you were headed. Most of the US tube numbering systems are today fairly meaningless, and yes, the best way to know what tubes you are looking at is to pretty much know what circuits you are looking at. The initial "standard" (an example would be UV-201) set by RCA was quickly corrupted by the independents, so the industry set up a new standard that we all (US) know and love. I suspect that the choice to standardize the filament voltage and active number of elements in the type number, yet leave out the basic function, was driven by the idea that many radio designs could easily morph, simply with a tube swap, in order to meet a new demand. An example might be changing a standard AC power radio into a farm set into a car radio - mostly with only a tube swap involving filament changes. In an early 1930s context, this starts to make sense. However, with the explosion of new types, I think this was all corrupted as well, and by the late 1930s it was pretty much as meaningless as it is today. The industry standard 55xx series, where most computer tubes reside, chucked all ideas of encoding stuff in the number, and in a way has remained very intact. The European system used this same idea, tried to encode a little more into the type numbers, but still managed to corrupt itself. An article in Tube Collector magazine outlined the system, and there are an astonishing amount of inconsistencies. In a way, it tried to be too clever. Of all these systems, the most simple ones tend to be the best - do not encode anything into the type numbers. If a tube user needs to figure out just what a specific tube type does, he probably has no business sticking his nose into the radio in the first place. The award for most retarded tube numbering must go to the British. Apart from the military's CV (common valve) system, which almost nobody but the military uses, the British system was a mess, with numbers and formats specific to the government agency or industry that wrote the databooks. Often these numbers would even foul each other. The best example is the VT90. If you ordered a VT90 each from the Army, Air Ministry, and Post Office, you would get three completely incompatible tubes. And during World War 2, if you ordered a VT90 in Britain, you might get a humble little US made 6H6 dual diode - a "fourth" VT90. -- Will From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Jul 18 23:12:12 2010 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2010 22:12:12 -0600 Subject: ez80 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C43D09C.7070804@jetnet.ab.ca> Tony Duell wrote: > Certainly for testing. RRun the heaters off a battery. If the hum goes > away, at least you know where it's coming from. I found my hum ... Poor magnetic shielding between the power supply and the pre-amp output transformers. Not much I can do unless I can order custom shielded chokes and power transformers as well as shielded 10K to 600 ohm output transformers. I don't have the $$$ for that, but it does prove you can get rid of hum if you don't use cheap off the shelf parts, but parts made for low hum and noise. > -tony Ben. From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jul 19 00:00:22 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2010 22:00:22 -0700 Subject: ez80 In-Reply-To: <4C43D09C.7070804@jetnet.ab.ca> References: , <4C43D09C.7070804@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4C437976.9900.3066F6E@cclist.sydex.com> On 18 Jul 2010 at 22:12, Ben wrote: > > Certainly for testing. RRun the heaters off a battery. If the hum > > goes away, at least you know where it's coming from. > I found my hum ... Poor magnetic shielding between the power supply > and the pre-amp output transformers. Not much I can do unless I can > order custom shielded chokes and power transformers as well as > shielded 10K to 600 ohm output transformers. I don't have the $$$ for > that, but it does prove you can get rid of hum if you don't use cheap > off the shelf parts, but parts made for low hum and noise. Any chance you could simply change the orientation of one or the other? --Chuck From snhirsch at gmail.com Sun Jul 18 08:44:17 2010 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2010 09:44:17 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Amlyn Minipac diskette changer In-Reply-To: <4C41DDC2.21327.1DDE4E1@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4C41649B.7546.4A61F@cclist.sydex.com>, <4C41DDC2.21327.1DDE4E1@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 17 Jul 2010, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 17 Jul 2010 at 16:16, Steven Hirsch wrote: > >> I pulled down a copy of their patent application for the unit and it >> almost looks like the Minipac diskettes have some sort of pre-written >> servo track. Perhaps the unit can actually write this servo, but >> without documentation I'm just surmising. > > Could be. It sounds a bit like the Drivetec drives of the same time > period. Something like (ISTR) 192 tpi, using an embedded servo, > making factory-formatted disks mandatory, something that probably did > more to kill the drive than anything else. I've still got a couple > of the Kodak/Drivetecs with media from Dysan, but basically they > exist for the eventuality that someone, somewhere has data written on > one of these that they need to get at. Gets stranger as I go... I disassembled the drive to take a short at cleaning the heads. Turns out to be "head" (singular). If the total capacity is 6MB, then they were writing 160 tracks on a single side. That's pushing the envelope for mechanical alignment on a floppy and certainly explains why they used servo-feedback positioning instead of blind stepping like a conventional drive. The majority of claims on the patent pertained to track positioning, so this is all consistant. Steve -- From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sat Jul 17 13:57:18 2010 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2010 11:57:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 68K ISA project In-Reply-To: <4C3FB9ED.1050300@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <590361.31877.qm@web65503.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> --- On Thu, 7/15/10, Eric Smith wrote: ? > I've never understood the point.? The *last* thing I > want to look at is my keyboard.? Fingers on keyboard, > eyes on screen. touchscreens have been around forever dude. Now you can throw away yer k/b and fumble around on yer screen altogether. And 2 inches from your nose. From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sat Jul 17 14:03:09 2010 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2010 12:03:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 68K ISA project In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <955325.30718.qm@web65508.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> --- On Thu, 7/15/10, Liam Proven wrote: > Perhaps Sir would like the Happy Hacking Keyboard? Are apologies to Carol Meindl necessary? Author of the "Happy Hacker". Not sure if she coined the term. I was introduced to the term butt pirate at the tender age of 38. I revised it to ass-pirate. I call my sister (49) it all the time and she cackles rather loudly. From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sun Jul 18 16:53:14 2010 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2010 14:53:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: crazy projects in general Re: 68K (ISA) project In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <664655.64189.qm@web65514.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> reading over your post got me to thinking Henk (and I took the liberty of deleting it - it already made the list - in deference to those paying by the kb). It would be nice if there were a group of us that would undertake group projects, like rigging together some kind of relatively small uP project. Being disposed to a democratic system, we could vote on projects - and the detractors would have to play along and play nice! LOL LOL Don't sound so democratic anymore! Seriously though. We all need other's enthusiasm to feed off of. Many many moons ago I had it in mind to build a small 6800 board. That's not such a bad first group project, if my opinion matters. Of course I lean towards Intel stuff, but I'm not exclusive to it. I must admit I'd drool rather profusely when I find 80186/88 based stuff in particular. If anyone is interested in this sort of *club*, please reply. And on list ;) There are rather easy ways of homebrewing etched circuit boards for instance (the drilling is a bit more arduous though). I attended a *class* at last years Trenton Computer Festival where the instructor taught us how to mask copper boards w/a commonly found grocery store product. Maybe a better 1st project would be to build an inexpensive CNC drilling device. Feedback is necessary. From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sun Jul 18 17:03:44 2010 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2010 15:03:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 17" CRT - Worth Keeping? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <306059.84317.qm@web65502.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> --- On Sun, 7/18/10, Tony Duell wrote: > What's so interesting about BNC input sockets? Making > adaptor cables from > BNC connectors to other types of connector is not normally > difficult, and > to be honest doing sync separation (e.g. to use a > separte-sync montor > with a sync-on-green computer) is a lot easier than > converting scan rates > or something like that. I like them. They hearken back to the days of the ultra powered engineering workstations and such. Yes adding sync signals to the green (or any other) signal is very easy. Just a resistor. The truth is, I, even I, have never seen a *workstation* monitor that operated off anything lower then ~48khz. They do exist, this I know. I began accumulating these things in the mid 90's. Now finding a very early one would be a find. I won an auction and part of it was for a big crt that operated off a TIPC. I declined to have it ship though. How stupid was that? > > I'd stick it in the closet, or in the yard > inside 2 or 3 very sturdy > > plastic bags. If Adrian gets his way, there won't be a > single one left > > in the entire UK! > > Can you expalin, please? Adrian just finished stating he brought a number to the skip (skipper? So he could sail them out and dump them in the ocean??? LOL LOL LOL.) From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sun Jul 18 17:06:43 2010 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2010 15:06:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 17" CRT - Worth Keeping? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <146857.54911.qm@web65505.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> --- On Sun, 7/18/10, Tony Duell wrote: > > Those old monitors are starting to die out. > > Particularly if people assume that any one that doesn't > work can't be > repaired... True, but if the tube or flyback goes, it's basically toast, unless you're really masochistic. From ajp166 at verizon.net Mon Jul 19 07:47:30 2010 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2010 08:47:30 -0400 Subject: ez80 In-Reply-To: <4C43D09C.7070804@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4C43D09C.7070804@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4C444962.5020909@verizon.net> On 07/19/2010 12:12 AM, Ben wrote: > Tony Duell wrote: > >> Certainly for testing. RRun the heaters off a battery. If the hum goes >> away, at least you know where it's coming from. > I found my hum ... Poor magnetic shielding between the power supply > and the pre-amp output transformers. Not much I can do unless I can > order custom shielded chokes and power transformers as well as > shielded 10K to 600 ohm output transformers. > I don't have the $$$ for that, but it does prove you can get > rid of hum if you don't use cheap off the shelf parts, but > parts made for low hum and noise. > >> -tony > Ben. > Those that still remember the technology knew enough to loose mount transformers so they could be rotated for minimum hum pickup. Or they remote mounted the power transformer/power supply so the hum issue is less pronounced. Allison > > > From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Jul 19 09:58:50 2010 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2010 08:58:50 -0600 Subject: ez80 In-Reply-To: <4C437976.9900.3066F6E@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4C43D09C.7070804@jetnet.ab.ca> <4C437976.9900.3066F6E@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4C44682A.7000708@jetnet.ab.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 18 Jul 2010 at 22:12, Ben wrote: > >>> Certainly for testing. RRun the heaters off a battery. If the hum >>> goes away, at least you know where it's coming from. >> I found my hum ... Poor magnetic shielding between the power supply >> and the pre-amp output transformers. Not much I can do unless I can >> order custom shielded chokes and power transformers as well as >> shielded 10K to 600 ohm output transformers. I don't have the $$$ for >> that, but it does prove you can get rid of hum if you don't use cheap >> off the shelf parts, but parts made for low hum and noise. > > Any chance you could simply change the orientation of one or the > other? I tried that, but not much change in the hum. The main problem is the power supply, I got all crappy open core inductors, that hum like mad. This will require a rebuild, but I don't have $$$ for that. Now I know why consumer products vs commercial products have a 10x difference in price. > --Chuck > Now that I know where my hum is from, I can get back to computer design. No not a Z80, but 9/18 bit CPLD cpu design I plan to build. 6850 ACIA, Simple IDE interface 32KB ( 9 bits of ram ), 512 byte EEPROM for boot straps ( bits #3 is duplicated as bit #4 to give 9 bits),A cpu CPLD and a GLUE CPLD and a bit 74HCT for misc parts. Ben. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Jul 19 10:03:59 2010 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2010 09:03:59 -0600 Subject: ez80 In-Reply-To: <4C444962.5020909@verizon.net> References: <4C43D09C.7070804@jetnet.ab.ca> <4C444962.5020909@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4C44695F.6070709@jetnet.ab.ca> allison wrote: > Those that still remember the technology knew enough to loose mount > transformers > so they could be rotated for minimum hum pickup. Or they remote mounted > the power > transformer/power supply so the hum issue is less pronounced. I had to get my DC voltages with low hum , so I could tell if this is my hum problem. As they say "Back to the drawing board". I just wish they would state hum rejection and stuff like that rather than claiming super new hi-tec core with bla-bla bla. > > Allison > From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jul 19 10:16:35 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2010 08:16:35 -0700 Subject: ez80 In-Reply-To: <4C44682A.7000708@jetnet.ab.ca> References: , <4C437976.9900.3066F6E@cclist.sydex.com>, <4C44682A.7000708@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4C4409E3.22918.250E15@cclist.sydex.com> On 19 Jul 2010 at 8:58, Ben wrote: > The main problem is the power supply, I got all crappy open core > inductors, that hum like mad. This will require a rebuild, but I > don't have $$$ for that. Now I know why consumer products vs > commercial products have a 10x difference in price. A short-term solution might be to fabricate an external shield over the troublesome components out of sheet steel. Another approach would be to physically separate the power supply from the amplifier. That used to be a very common approach. --Chuck From lproven at gmail.com Mon Jul 19 10:44:40 2010 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2010 16:44:40 +0100 Subject: Any former Psion 5 owners out there? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 18 July 2010 20:25, Tony Duell wrote: > The HP95LX/100LX (and I assume the 200LX, although I have never used one) > have 1 feature that is essential for me, and another that is highly > desirable. > > The first is a good terminal emulator, with plain text, kermit and xmodem > up/down loading. I'm sure you're right, but in all my years on the Psion 5/5mx, I never ever used a terminal emulator, as far as I can recall. The series 3 had one in ROM, but the ROM was in the serial interface. Plug in the RS232 cable, suddenly, a VT100/200 app became available. :?) There were various downloadable ones for the S5 and 5mx, but I never bothered. No need, for me. Primarily, the machines were a pocket database/diary, secondly a writing tool, thirdly mobile phone backup & SMS messagebase management, and peripheral to these, a calculator and occasional web browser. I tried out the email but never actually used it apart from the occasional emergency. I never did get to grips with RPN. I did play with the terminal app on a review model of HP Omnigo 700, the weird hybrid one with a mobile phone. This was the ancestor of what became the Communicator, and even in the early days of the mid-1990s, its potential was apparent. I never owned one or used one, though - way too expensive to buy or use, and if I had the money, still way too bulky. -- Liam Proven ? Profile & links: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From legalize at xmission.com Mon Jul 19 14:21:05 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2010 13:21:05 -0600 Subject: recovering cartridge tapes (was: Tek fiches found! (was: Looking for Tektronix 4051 programs...)) In-Reply-To: Your message of Sat, 17 Jul 2010 18:46:35 -0500. Message-ID: In article , Randy Dawson writes: > oject. He has a 4051. Also a bunch of tapes with the belt and capstan degr= > ade problem=2C and I mentioned the idea of transplanting the media to a new= > dc300 cartridge. As I understand it the DC300/DC100 cartridges are a linear encoding format (according to Wikipedia, anyway). I've been thinking that we need to create a device for reading these cartridges that is similar to the 7/9-track device at the Computer History Museum. We should be able to take a read head from an existing drive and create a mechanism for slowly and gently moving the tape over the read head and digitize the resulting analog signals for later signal processing. Is there any sort of detailed writeup of the design of the 7/9-track machine at CHM? If we build a similar device for these cartrdige tapes we can avoid the capstan and drive belt problems and recover the data in a secure manner. I've also been wondering about building a circuit that creates fake analog signals to the existing tape drive circuitry so that you can "play back" the archived tapes into an existing device without having to worry about physical media. First I think its more important to create a device for safely archiving the media, though. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From snhirsch at gmail.com Mon Jul 19 07:00:57 2010 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2010 08:00:57 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Amlyn Minipac diskette changer In-Reply-To: References: , <4C41649B.7546.4A61F@cclist.sydex.com>, <4C41DDC2.21327.1DDE4E1@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 18 Jul 2010, Steven Hirsch wrote: >> On 17 Jul 2010 at 16:16, Steven Hirsch wrote: >> >>> I pulled down a copy of their patent application for the unit and it >>> almost looks like the Minipac diskettes have some sort of pre-written >>> servo track. Perhaps the unit can actually write this servo, but >>> without documentation I'm just surmising. >> >> Could be. It sounds a bit like the Drivetec drives of the same time >> period. Something like (ISTR) 192 tpi, using an embedded servo, >> making factory-formatted disks mandatory, something that probably did >> more to kill the drive than anything else. I've still got a couple >> of the Kodak/Drivetecs with media from Dysan, but basically they >> exist for the eventuality that someone, somewhere has data written on >> one of these that they need to get at. > > Gets stranger as I go... I disassembled the drive to take a short at > cleaning the heads. Turns out to be "head" (singular). If the total > capacity is 6MB, then they were writing 160 tracks on a single side. That's > pushing the envelope for mechanical alignment on a floppy and certainly > explains why they used servo-feedback positioning instead of blind stepping > like a conventional drive. The majority of claims on the patent pertained to > track positioning, so this is all consistant. .. It appears that the OEM Amlyn diskettes are pre-formatted in some manner. I found a utility (from my Vista 8" Apple subsystem) that recognized the data on my Amlyn drive cartridge and was able to retrieve the system generation and format utilities. The latter works fine on one of the cartridge diskettes, so I tried it on a blank 1.2M HD floppy that was cut up to fit the unit. The new disk loads properly without mechanical issues, but will not format or otherwise show signs of life. I'm guessing they wanted to preserve a market for blank diskettes and cartridges. Reminds me of the DEC Rainbow (wasn't that system deliberately crippled to prevent it from being able to format blank media?). Steve -- From philip at axeside.co.uk Mon Jul 19 14:43:16 2010 From: philip at axeside.co.uk (Philip Belben) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2010 20:43:16 +0100 Subject: Tek fiches found! In-Reply-To: <4C43195C.6090800@bitsavers.org> References: , <4BFE0F1A.6070600@mail.msu.edu> <4C02B9BE.7010802@axeside.co.uk> <4C4217BC.4080005@axeside.co.uk> <4C43195C.6090800@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4C44AAD4.5000907@axeside.co.uk> >> I'd like to see this preserved - does anyone have a scanner that will do >> fiche, and the time to work on these to get good quality scans? If so, >> I'll lend you the fiches. > > I have a fiche scanner, and have some 4050 fiche queued up to do. Excellent. Where are you, Al? If I can't find a suitable facility nearer home, I may send you the fiches to add to your queue... Many thanks, Philip. From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jul 19 15:49:49 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2010 13:49:49 -0700 Subject: recovering cartridge tapes (was: Tek fiches found! (was: Looking for Tektronix 4051 programs...)) In-Reply-To: References: >, Message-ID: <4C4457FD.7434.156248F@cclist.sydex.com> On 19 Jul 2010 at 13:21, Richard wrote: > If we build a similar device for these cartrdige tapes we can avoid > the capstan and drive belt problems and recover the data in a secure > manner. I don't understand (I'm probably very dense today). The belt ensures that the supply and takeup reels in a DCxxx cartridge move together. The reels are not accessible without disassembling the cartridge. How would one handle a cartridge with a broken belt with your idea? --Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jul 19 15:05:27 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2010 21:05:27 +0100 (BST) Subject: 17" CRT - Worth Keeping? In-Reply-To: <146857.54911.qm@web65505.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> from "Chris M" at Jul 18, 10 03:06:43 pm Message-ID: > > > Those old monitors are starting to die out. > > > > Particularly if people assume that any one that doesn't > > work can't be > > repaired... > > True, but if the tube or flyback goes, it's basically toast, unless > you're really masochistic. Most of the time I agree with you, but I wouldn't condemn a non-working monitor out of hand before doing a few quick checks to prove it's something that's hard to get like the flyback transformer. It might be a simple fault that you can get the parts to fix. And there are some monitors where I would find a way to replace any transformers that failed, as I mentioned in another message. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jul 19 15:11:31 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2010 21:11:31 +0100 (BST) Subject: ez80 In-Reply-To: <4C4325EE.16922.1C0221B@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Jul 18, 10 04:03:58 pm Message-ID: > > On 18 Jul 2010 at 19:44, Tony Duell wrote: > > > Is it just me, or are the common US valve numbers pretty much > > meaningless. The common UK/European ones, used by Philips/Mullard [1] > > can be easily decoded to give the heater rating, electrode structure > > and base type. US ones don't seem to give the electrode structure in > > any meaningful way, even though that it probably the most important > > thing [2]. > > It depends. 0xxx = cold-cathode, gas filled, 6xxxx = 6.3V heater, > 12xxxx = 12.6v heater, of course. 7xxx, 14xxx, loctal versions. The Only the 7xxxx is not the Loctal equivalent of the 6xxxx in genral. IIRC, the 6Q7 became the 7C6, the 6V6 became the 7C5. No logic at all. > last number is generally the number of elements in earlier devices, > but that's a give-or-take. So 5Y3 and 5U4 are both directly-heated And IIRC for octal valves, the metal envelope (early octals being those RCA metal things, of course) counted as an element. > cathode full-wave rectifiers. 5 or 6 = beam power tube or triode > with dual diode section. 7 = indirectly heated cathode pentode, or > combination oscillator-mixer (e.g. 6L7), also dual triode. 8 = > pentagrid converter (e.g. 6A8). But it's all approximate. In other words, if oyu know what the valve is, fine, but there's no way you'll work it out from the type number. But if somebody says to me 'EFM1', I know it's a combination signal pentode and 'magic eye' indicator (yes, such a device did exist!) with a 6.3V heater on a P side contact base. And a UCH81 is a triode-hexode freqeucny changer with a 100mA series-string heater on a B9A base. And so on -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jul 19 14:46:04 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2010 20:46:04 +0100 (BST) Subject: 17" CRT - Worth Keeping? In-Reply-To: from "Brian Lanning" at Jul 18, 10 03:43:54 pm Message-ID: > > FWIW, a lot of current UK LCD (and I assume plasma) TVs have RGB inputs > > at TV rates (15.625kHz horizonatal in the UK) onthe SCART socket. I > > assume those will work with older computers expecting a TV-rate monitor, > > although how good the quality would be I don't know. > > I keep forgetting about these. They do work. But I know some people Do American TVs normally have RGB inputs? As I said, UK ones do (and I asusme European ones do too) on what is knwon as a SCART socket (a strange 21 pin connector carrying 2 channels of audio, composite video, RGB video, sometimes S video and a few other signals). We often also get a separate compsoite video input on an RCA phono socket, 'component video' (which appears to be luminance and 2 colour difference signals on 3 RCA phono sockets), often a VGA input (DE15, of course) and HDMI digital inputs. > dislike the look of LCDs, prefering tubes instead. CRTs are obviously I prefer CRT-based monitors when I have to fix them. The LCD ones normally hagve a lot of very custom silicon in hard-to-solder packages (BGAs sometimes) which are even harder to get as spare parts. At leas CRT monitos have power transistors and things that I have a hope of getting :-). Older LCD monitors (and I guess some cheaper ones now) had a very poor contrast radio -- blacks looked dark grey -- which drove me mad. Modern ones are a lot better in my experience. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jul 19 14:56:41 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2010 20:56:41 +0100 (BST) Subject: Any former Psion 5 owners out there? In-Reply-To: <20100718205034.GA20055@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> from "Alexander Schreiber" at Jul 18, 10 10:50:34 pm Message-ID: > > > > The HP95LX/100LX (and I assume the 200LX, although I have never used one) > > have 1 feature that is essential for me, and another that is highly > > desirable. > > > > The first is a good terminal emulator, with plain text, kermit and xmodem > > up/down loading. For working on classic computers (which is what I do all > > the time, of course), a machine that will fit in my pocket or sit on top > > of a cardcage and which will let me grab data from a serial port, or work > > as a consolr on a PDP11 or VAX and then let me upload any captured data > > to another machine (any other machine -- kermit runs on just about > > everything I own) is very handy. > > Speaking from personal experience, the HP200LX makes for a great mobile > serial terminal. I've used it with various machines, sitting behind the > rack (warmed by the machine exhaust fans *g*). :=). I;'ve balanced my 95LX on top of a set of boards in a cardcage on occasions. It's great for those 3rd-party Unibus and Qbus controllers which have a serial port to configure them, for running diagnositcs on RA82 drives, and things like that. I also use it to trasfer files to my EPROM programmer (which has a serial interface) if I want to use the programmer on my bench away from my PC. And for transfering files between my PC (e.g. to up/download them from the net) and a classic machine without running a long cable between them. Kermit the file to the HP palmtop and then kermit/whatever it to the classic machine. > > > The other thing I need in a palmtop is a text editor. Since I format text > > with LaTeX if I want a formatted document, I don't need a word processor > > on the palmtop, just a way of creating and editing text files. The HP's > > hae a suitable editor, I think other palmtops do too. > > I started writing my diploma thesis on the HP200LX with LaTeX, but later > moved to my Linux workstation as I started to include graphics. I musrt admit I find the palmtop keyboard too small for typing long documents, but it sure is handy for making notes at the bench. And I can incldue LaTeX formatting if I want to. > > > The thing I most certainly do not want is automatic synchronisation with > > desktop PC applicators. It's extremely unlikely I use those appliations > > anyway, and there is problably no documentation on how to transfer data > > to/from anything else. I prefer standard transfer systems (Kermit, > > Xmodem), I'll work out how to updata the files on the PC... > > There seems to be a dominating mindset that sees mobile devices (like > palmtops) just as extensions of ones desktop. To someone like me, who > uses them as mostly standalone devices, with occasionally copying data > from/to them, that is rather silly. Indeed. It's one reason I moan -- a lot -- about the USB interface on some modern HP calcualtors. It's a slave only, intended to link the calculator to a larger machine for backing it up. The problem is, it means the calculator can't be used as the host, to control other devices. Things like the 48 series had an RS232 port, which, while it wasnormally used to link the calculator to a PC, could also be used to control RS232-interfaced devices. And of course on the older machines with HPIL, you could add an HPIB translator and the calculator could act as the controller on an HPIB bus (I speak from experience here, I normally test HPIB devices using my HP71B as a controller). I, and I suspect many others here, though do not use my desktop machine for the conventioaal purposes. I have no use for apointments books, large databases, and things like that. > > Or course your needs are probably very different to mine. But for me the > > HP95LX does what I want. other machines don't. The one thing I miss is a > > built-in programming lagnuage (you don't even get DEBUG on the European > > models). But I can live with that. > > Well, you can get various programming languages for DOS, among others, > the Borland compilers come to mind (and Turbo C++ works quite well on > my HP200LX). Sure. There are plenty of languages that can be run on it. But there is nothing built-in -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jul 19 15:01:14 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2010 21:01:14 +0100 (BST) Subject: 17" CRT - Worth Keeping? In-Reply-To: <4811E9E9A1FD4342BBC5F298F6FF85E2@dell8300> from "Teo Zenios" at Jul 18, 10 05:37:42 pm Message-ID: > Fixing CRT monitors is not my specialty to be honest, and I have a NEC 3Ds It's not my _sepciality_, but sometimes I have to do it :-). Seriously, as I've said before, I feel that not knowing how to do something that I want to do is a good enough reason to teach myself how to do it, no matter how long it takes. > Anything can be repaired, its just a matter of time and money. On the grounds it was made by man in the first place, so man can repair it :-) Sure, but some thins are a lot of effort to fix. It is _possible_ given enough time and money to make a CRT, but none of us (I susepct) have the time to learn the skills and the money to buy all the equipment. In the case of a monitor, how much work I am prepared to do depends (alas) on the monitor. If it was the monitor on my HP9836CU, or even more the origianl monitor for a PERQ 2T4, I would spend a lot of time on it, I'd rewind transformers by hand, etc. I'd probably not bother for a generic PC monitor -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jul 19 15:25:22 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2010 21:25:22 +0100 (BST) Subject: ez80 In-Reply-To: from "William Donzelli" at Jul 18, 10 10:57:07 pm Message-ID: > > > It's like navigating around Boston--if you lived there, you'd know > > where you were headed. > > Most of the US tube numbering systems are today fairly meaningless, > and yes, the best way to know what tubes you are looking at is to > pretty much know what circuits you are looking at. The initial Or to have the data books and/or equivalents lists to hand... > "standard" (an example would be UV-201) set by RCA was quickly > corrupted by the independents, so the industry set up a new standard > that we all (US) know and love. I suspect that the choice to > standardize the filament voltage and active number of elements in the > type number, yet leave out the basic function, was driven by the idea > that many radio designs could easily morph, simply with a tube swap, > in order to meet a new demand. An example might be changing a standard > AC power radio into a farm set into a car radio - mostly with only a > tube swap involving filament changes. In an early 1930s context, this Except that most of the time when there are 2 valves differing only in filament voltage, it's not just the first digits that change. The 50L6 is a lot closer to a 6V6 than to a 6L6 from what I remember. And I mentioned in my other post about the random changes beteween octal and loctal numbers. In a sense the Mullard/Philips code had similar problems, but at least you could be sure that both an EL84 and a UL84 were output pentodes on a B9A base. And many cases, valves differing only in the first letter were identical apart from the heater rating (e.g. EL81 and PL81). > The European system used this same idea, tried to encode a little more > into the type numbers, but still managed to corrupt itself. An article > in Tube Collector magazine outlined the system, and there are an > astonishing amount of inconsistencies. In a way, it tried to be too There are some inconsistencies early on (valves with the digits giving a number <20 but having an octal base being the main ones that I've seen), but an awful lot of the so-called inconsistences are from people who don't realise that the code changed somewhat when the final number went from 2 to 3 digits. In particular the initial letter 'G' was originally for 5V heaters (e.g. GZ34 rectifier), later it was used for miscelaneuous heater ratings 9e.g. the GY501 EHT rectifier which has a 3.15V filament IIRC), and that 2x (2 digits) means a loctal base while 2xx means a B10B paaase, and 5x means a B9G base while 5xx means a B9D base. > clever. > > Of all these systems, the most simple ones tend to be the best - do > not encode anything into the type numbers. If a tube user needs to > figure out just what a specific tube type does, he probably has no > business sticking his nose into the radio in the first place. Eh? If you can honestly work out what valves do without looking at their numbers (which is what you imply), you are clevere than any engineer I hve ever met. Most of us look up the numbers in a databook if we're not sure. > > The award for most retarded tube numbering must go to the British. > Apart from the military's CV (common valve) system, which almost > nobody but the military uses, the British system was a mess, with > numbers and formats specific to the government agency or industry that > wrote the databooks. Often these numbers would even foul each other. > The best example is the VT90. If you ordered a VT90 each from the > Army, Air Ministry, and Post Office, you would get three completely > incompatible tubes. And during World War 2, if you ordered a VT90 in I know the Air FOrce one (IIRC it's 'Valve, Transmitting', while VCR was 'Valve, Cathode Ray' (i.e a CRT, such as the famous VCR97 radar CRT that was used for the first Williams stores after the war). I've not come across it for Army valves, I thoght those normally started with 'A' (for 'Army' :-)). such as 'ARP12' (Army Receiving Pentode). > Britain, you might get a humble little US made 6H6 dual diode - a > "fourth" VT90. DO you mean 'Britain' here? I assume you're refering to the US military code where it stood for 'Vacuum Tube' (even if the device was gas-filled :-)) While it clearly helps having a consistent coding system if you are trying to win a war, I see no reason to expect that different manufacturers or agencies would necessarily have the same coding scheme. Would you expect an Intel 4040 and an RCA 4040 to be the same chip? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jul 19 15:27:48 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2010 21:27:48 +0100 (BST) Subject: ez80 In-Reply-To: <4C43D09C.7070804@jetnet.ab.ca> from "Ben" at Jul 18, 10 10:12:12 pm Message-ID: > > Tony Duell wrote: > > > Certainly for testing. RRun the heaters off a battery. If the hum goes > > away, at least you know where it's coming from. > I found my hum ... Poor magnetic shielding between the power supply > and the pre-amp output transformers. Not much I can do unless I can I am curious as t owhy toy have output transformers in a pre-amp, but anyway. Have you treid moving them around. If they're of the normal clamp construciton, arranging the cores in a straight line is about the wrst thing you can do. Turning the mains transofrmer through 90 degress might well help. > order custom shielded chokes and power transformers as well as > shielded 10K to 600 ohm output transformers. Make your own screens? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jul 19 15:37:36 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2010 21:37:36 +0100 (BST) Subject: Any former Psion 5 owners out there? In-Reply-To: from "Liam Proven" at Jul 19, 10 04:44:40 pm Message-ID: > > On 18 July 2010 20:25, Tony Duell wrote: > > > The HP95LX/100LX (and I assume the 200LX, although I have never used one) > > have 1 feature that is essential for me, and another that is highly > > desirable. > > > > The first is a good terminal emulator, with plain text, kermit and xmodem > > up/down loading. > > I'm sure you're right, but in all my years on the Psion 5/5mx, I never > ever used a terminal emulator, as far as I can recall. As I said, it depends on what you use the machine for. 99% of users want a device to carry data from their desktop machine (appointments, phone number database ,etc) around. I don't. I sue my palmtop as a tool for fixing classic computers. And a temrinal that I can fit just about anywhere (rather than having to get a real VT100 to fit in somewhere) is very useful. > The series 3 had one in ROM, but the ROM was in the serial interface. > Plug in the RS232 cable, suddenly, a VT100/200 app became available. > :=AC) Right. The serial port is built into the HP machines you just need a cable, and it is a simple cable with no internal electronics (I've built enough of them over the years...) > > There were various downloadable ones for the S5 and 5mx, but I never > bothered. No need, for me. The advantage of having it built-in, in ROM, is that it's always there. If the batteries have gone so flat that the memory is lost, you can put in a couple more AA cells (and those are available _anywhere_) and have a working terminal again. No need to have to find some way to download something to the machine. And you can bet that the batteries will be flat when you're called to fix some obscure machine somewhere, well away from your workshop/PC. > Primarily, the machines were a pocket database/diary, secondly a > writing tool, thirdly mobile phone backup & SMS messagebase > management, and peripheral to these, a calculator and occasional web > browser. I tried out the email but never actually used it apart from > the occasional emergency. Most of those applications I would have no use for at all. > I never did get to grips with RPN. Hmmm. I found (and this is not atypical from discussions with others) that it takes a couple of hours at most to learn to use an RPN calcualtor, but after that you never want to go back. It's simply so much more convnient and easy to use. You don;'t ahve to worry aobut the order of operations -- the operatios are performed in the order you type them. So remembering whether -2^4 is (-2)^4 or -(2^4) is not a problem any more. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jul 19 15:42:14 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2010 21:42:14 +0100 (BST) Subject: recovering cartridge tapes (was: Tek fiches found! (was: Looking for In-Reply-To: from "Richard" at Jul 19, 10 01:21:05 pm Message-ID: > > > In article , > Randy Dawson writes: > > > oject. He has a 4051. Also a bunch of tapes with the belt and capstan degr= > > ade problem=2C and I mentioned the idea of transplanting the media to a new= > > dc300 cartridge. > > As I understand it the DC300/DC100 cartridges are a linear encoding > format (according to Wikipedia, anyway). If you mean as opposed to a helical recording (like video tapes, etc), then it is. IRIC the Tekky 405x series didn't use any of the standard encodings, though. They had a 2 coil head that read/wrote 2 tracks at the same time. A pulse on one track was a '0' bit,a pusle on the other track was a '1'. Whether simultaneous pulses on both tracks were used as some kind of marker I don;t know, many otehr similar systems did use that. > I've also been wondering about building a circuit that creates fake > analog signals to the existing tape drive circuitry so that you can > "play back" the archived tapes into an existing device without having > to worry about physical media. First I think its more important to > create a device for safely archiving the media, though. Since the first things that';s done with the analogue signals from the head is that they're converted into digital pulses, it may be easier to feed the data in at that point, similar to the flopy drive emulators 9using SD cards, etc) that are around now. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jul 19 15:56:13 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2010 21:56:13 +0100 (BST) Subject: Amlyn Minipac diskette changer In-Reply-To: from "Steven Hirsch" at Jul 19, 10 08:00:57 am Message-ID: > market for blank diskettes and cartridges. Reminds me of the DEC Rainbow > (wasn't that system deliberately crippled to prevent it from being able to > format blank media?). Only (AFIAK) by DEC not supplying a formatter program with early versions of the OS. The hardware was quite capable of formatting blank disks. -tony From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jul 19 15:56:49 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2010 13:56:49 -0700 Subject: Amlyn Minipac diskette changer In-Reply-To: References: , , Message-ID: <4C4459A1.28882.15C89E4@cclist.sydex.com> On 19 Jul 2010 at 8:00, Steven Hirsch wrote: > The new disk loads properly without mechanical issues, but will not > format or otherwise show signs of life. I'm guessing they wanted to > preserve a market for blank diskettes and cartridges. Reminds me of > the DEC Rainbow (wasn't that system deliberately crippled to prevent > it from being able to format blank media?). If the Amlyn disks use an embedded servo, formatting one is a mechanical issue--you need to periodically offset from the central track axis a bit one way or the other to write a servo burst. Not easy to do wth a conventional read/write drive. --Chuck From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Jul 19 16:02:08 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2010 17:02:08 -0400 Subject: Preformatted RX50s (was Re: Amlyn Minipac diskette changer) Message-ID: On 7/19/10, Tony Duell wrote: >> market for blank diskettes and cartridges. Reminds me of the DEC Rainbow >> (wasn't that system deliberately crippled to prevent it from being able to >> >> format blank media?). > > Only (AFIAK) by DEC not supplying a formatter program with early versions > of the OS. The hardware was quite capable of formatting blank disks. In the case of the Rainbow, the hardware was capable of formatting media, but ISTR some other DEC controllers didn't have bits left over in a CSR or didn't have enough command packet varieties to include a media format request or some other design limitation that was left out for various reasons, not primarily to force users to buy pre-formatted media, but since DEC had been selling pre-formatted media for years (RX01, RX02, RL01, RL02, TU58...) (vs older devices that *could* be user-formatted - RK05, DECtape, etc) it was believed at the time that users wouldn't complain enough to make a more complicated (and expensive) solution necessary. I think for the most part, they were right - there might have been some grumbling about the cost of media, but commercial customers were used to paying for places to store their bits. Home users were another market entirely, and I don't think that it went over as smoothly when trying to sell expensive disks to that crowd. I remember complaints from the later RX50 era that I don't remember from the RX01 era vis-a-vis buying pre-formatted media. The difference lies, I think, more with the audience than the technology on this one. -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Jul 19 16:10:38 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2010 17:10:38 -0400 Subject: Formatting media issues (was Re: Amlyn Minipac diskette changer) Message-ID: On 7/19/10, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 19 Jul 2010 at 8:00, Steven Hirsch wrote: >> Reminds me of >> the DEC Rainbow (wasn't that system deliberately crippled to prevent >> it from being able to format blank media?). > > If the Amlyn disks use an embedded servo, formatting one is a > mechanical issue--you need to periodically offset from the central > track axis a bit one way or the other to write a servo burst. Not > easy to do wth a conventional read/write drive. That's one issue I recall with the transition from RK05 to RL01 as "inexpensive" cartridge media in the DEC world. The RK05 has a manually-aligned external positioner, and the RL01 (and RL02) uses embedded servo data. One advantage to the RK05 technique is that you can format packs that have been bulk-erased (since the platters only contain data, not positioning info) One advantage to the RL01 is that you don't have to be quite as precise with head alignment (you have to be close enough for the embedded servo data to be legible, then, IIRC, the positioner circuit can lock on the rest of the way). There was another method that was acceptable for multi-surface packs - a servo surface. It's not worth dedicating an entire surface to positioner data if you only have two surfaces - you get a poor space-to-cost ratio. If you have 4-8 surfaces, it's more practical to give up a surface (vs a loss of some space for embedded servo info). An advantage of a servo-surface pack is that you can easily format the data surfaces as long as you leave the servo surface untouched. I've heard of a field service device for writing servo data on a wiped RL pack, but I've never seen one in person. -ethan From teoz at neo.rr.com Mon Jul 19 16:49:46 2010 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2010 17:49:46 -0400 Subject: 17" CRT - Worth Keeping? References: Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Monday, July 19, 2010 4:01 PM Subject: Re: 17" CRT - Worth Keeping? >> Fixing CRT monitors is not my specialty to be honest, and I have a NEC >> 3Ds > > It's not my _sepciality_, but sometimes I have to do it :-). Seriously, > as I've said before, I feel that not knowing how to do something that I > want to do is a good enough reason to teach myself how to do it, no > matter how long it takes. > Sure sometimes you have to do it, but most times probably not. I haven't bothered looking too deeply into the Tandy CM-5 because I have a working (and better dot pitch) CM-11. Currently I do have working Amiga monitors so I didn't see the need to pay for a broken NEC 3Ds. By specialty I mean there are other people who know how to fix that kind of stuff better and I might have something they need in trade. Sometimes for commodity items swapping out a part is just easier and cheaper then fixing the old one. I have fixed TV's and LCD monitors before, mostly because the item was free, figuring out what was wrong was not that hard, parts were cheap, and I needed the unit for something and didn't want to go buy a new one. I will go out of my way to fix an older system (68K mac for example) but I don't like messing with CRT monitors. From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jul 19 17:03:02 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2010 15:03:02 -0700 Subject: Valves/Tubes was: ez80 In-Reply-To: References: <4C4325EE.16922.1C0221B@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Jul 18, 10 04:03:58 pm, Message-ID: <4C446926.29169.1992B50@cclist.sydex.com> On 19 Jul 2010 at 21:11, Tony Duell wrote: > And IIRC for octal valves, the metal envelope (early octals being > those RCA metal things, of course) counted as an element. I don't believe so. 6L6 = metal beam power tube; 6L6G = glass envelope. (not to mention GT, GA, GB, etc.). The problem with the pre-WWII receiving tube system is that there were several systems. For example, the hugely popular UV201A means a type 01 triode, with a UV base and a thoriated tungsten (A) filament. In the RCA handbooks, the tube is simply listed as type 01A. Each manufacturer also had their own system, so for instance, Hytron had HYxxx numbers, in addition to their own "GTX" ceramic based versions of popular tubes. Raytheon had their CKxxx numbers, which they carried over to the solid-state world (remember the CK722?). In 1934, the Radio Manufacturer's association set in place a new system, which is the one we know now (first number = filament voltage, letter (assigned like license plates, in order of introduction), number of functional electrodes. Like license plates, the numbers ran out, so manufacturers began using the last number on an as-needed basis. So we have 6B4G = power triode, 6B5 = dual internally-coupled triode, 6B6 = duplex diode+triode, 6B7 = duplex diode + pentode, 6B8 = duplex diode pentode. On the other hand, 1D5-GP is a pentode; a 1D5-GT is a tetrode. Of course, a 12AP4 doesn't have a 12v filament, but is a 12" CRT with a 2.5V filament and P4 phosphor. Transmitting and industrial application tubes are sui generis with lots of bizarre combintions. For example, an 866A is a mercury-vapor rectifier with a 5 amp, 2.5v filament and a 10KV PRV rating and a 1000 ma peak current capacity. On the other hand an 866Jr. is a half- sized version--sort of. The Taylor version has a 3 amp. filament and 3.5KV PRV with a 250 ma. peak current. The Hytron 866Jr has a 3 amp filament, but a 5KV PRV and a 500 ma peak current. As I said, it's like Boston. --Chuck From legalize at xmission.com Mon Jul 19 17:22:05 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2010 16:22:05 -0600 Subject: recovering cartridge tapes (was: Tek fiches found! (was: Looking for Tektronix 4051 programs...)) In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 19 Jul 2010 13:49:49 -0700. <4C4457FD.7434.156248F@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: In article <4C4457FD.7434.156248F at cclist.sydex.com>, "Chuck Guzis" writes: > On 19 Jul 2010 at 13:21, Richard wrote: > > > If we build a similar device for these cartrdige tapes we can avoid > > the capstan and drive belt problems and recover the data in a secure > > manner. > > I don't understand (I'm probably very dense today). The belt ensures > that the supply and takeup reels in a DCxxx cartridge move together. > The reels are not accessible without disassembling the cartridge. > > How would one handle a cartridge with a broken belt with your idea? I think you answered your own question: you disassemble the cartridge. The belt is not necessary to read data from the tape, only to keep the two reels in the cartridge moving together. This is similar to the 9/7-track reading device: there are no takeup and feeder reels as they are normally present in a working drive. The tape is not pulled over the read head under tension. With tapes that you had to recondition via baking, you don't want to put them under tension anyway. The tapes are lightly pulled over the read head. I don't know the exact mechanics of the transport, but I believe it is electronically controlled and not manual. However, it exerts far less physical stress on the tape as I understand it. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jul 19 17:37:53 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2010 15:37:53 -0700 Subject: recovering cartridge tapes (was: Tek fiches found! (was: Looking for Tektronix 4051 programs...)) In-Reply-To: References: >, Message-ID: <4C447151.12348.1B912DB@cclist.sydex.com> On 19 Jul 2010 at 16:22, Richard wrote: > The belt is not necessary to read data from the tape, only to keep the > two reels in the cartridge moving together. > > This is similar to the 9/7-track reading device: there are no takeup > and feeder reels as they are normally present in a working drive. The > tape is not pulled over the read head under tension. Do you mean the system used in vacuum-column 7/9 track drives? (I think IBM used a pinch roller on either side of the head; CDC used vacuum capstans. The tape columns were kept at the appropriate level by a photocell system, with each reel motor activated as necessary to keep an adquate supply of tape in the columns for buffering. Making something like that for QIC tapes is possible, but there are a lot of mechanical issues to address. --Chuck From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Jul 19 17:40:36 2010 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2010 15:40:36 -0700 Subject: recovering cartridge tapes (was: Tek fiches found! (was: Looking for Tektronix 4051 programs...)) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C44D464.2010005@bitsavers.org> On 7/19/10 3:22 PM, Richard wrote: > This is similar to the 9/7-track reading device: there are no takeup > and feeder reels as they are normally present in a working drive. The > tape is not pulled over the read head under tension. With tapes that > you had to recondition via baking, you don't want to put them under > tension anyway. The tapes are lightly pulled over the read head. I > don't know the exact mechanics of the transport, but I believe it is > electronically controlled and not manual. However, it exerts far less > physical stress on the tape as I understand it. I have been using conventional drives for 1/2" tape recovery. John Bordyuik's web site at one point described the system he uses, which has a modified M4 data tranport fitted with an IBM 3480 16 track magnetorestrictive head and modified read electronics. In either case the tape transport is conventional. 3M 1/4" data cartridges need the band to move the tape. There is no conventional way to move the tape without this. From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Jul 19 18:03:23 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2010 19:03:23 -0400 Subject: recovering cartridge tapes (was: Tek fiches found! In-Reply-To: <4C447151.12348.1B912DB@cclist.sydex.com> References: >, <4C447151.12348.1B912DB@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4C44D9BB.4070701@neurotica.com> On 7/19/10 6:37 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> This is similar to the 9/7-track reading device: there are no takeup >> and feeder reels as they are normally present in a working drive. The >> tape is not pulled over the read head under tension. > > Do you mean the system used in vacuum-column 7/9 track drives? (I > think IBM used a pinch roller on either side of the head; CDC used > vacuum capstans. The tape columns were kept at the appropriate level > by a photocell system, with each reel motor activated as necessary to > keep an adquate supply of tape in the columns for buffering. Every vacuum-column drive I've seen has used pressure sensors to determine the position of the tape loops within the columns. Granted I've not seen a HUGE variety of different drives, but...just sayin'. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jul 19 18:16:47 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2010 16:16:47 -0700 Subject: recovering cartridge tapes (was: Tek fiches found! In-Reply-To: <4C44D9BB.4070701@neurotica.com> References: , <4C44D9BB.4070701@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4C447A6F.19215.1DCAE17@cclist.sydex.com> On 19 Jul 2010 at 19:03, Dave McGuire wrote: > Every vacuum-column drive I've seen has used pressure sensors to > determine the position of the tape loops within the columns. Granted > I've not seen a HUGE variety of different drives, but...just sayin'. Take a look at the bitsavers archive for the CDC 606 tape drive. 2 photosensors per column. (page 1-6). The 60x drives were marvels of engineering and built like tanks. --Chuck From legalize at xmission.com Mon Jul 19 18:18:28 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2010 17:18:28 -0600 Subject: recovering cartridge tapes (was: Tek fiches found! (was: Looking for Tektronix 4051 programs...)) In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 19 Jul 2010 15:37:53 -0700. <4C447151.12348.1B912DB@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: In article <4C447151.12348.1B912DB at cclist.sydex.com>, "Chuck Guzis" writes: > On 19 Jul 2010 at 16:22, Richard wrote: > > > The belt is not necessary to read data from the tape, only to keep the > > two reels in the cartridge moving together. > > > > This is similar to the 9/7-track reading device: there are no takeup > > and feeder reels as they are normally present in a working drive. The > > tape is not pulled over the read head under tension. > > Do you mean the system used in vacuum-column 7/9 track drives? Nope. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Mon Jul 19 18:20:08 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2010 17:20:08 -0600 Subject: recovering cartridge tapes (was: Tek fiches found! (was: Looking for Tektronix 4051 programs...)) In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 19 Jul 2010 15:40:36 -0700. <4C44D464.2010005@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: In article <4C44D464.2010005 at bitsavers.org>, Al Kossow writes: > I have been using conventional drives for 1/2" tape recovery. OK, apparently my memory is misfiring then. You aren't using the naked read head and digitizing the analog signals from the head and then using digital signal processing to extract 0s and 1s from the analog signals? That is the system I was remembering. I thought I remembers that it didn't use traditional drive transport mechanisms because the tapes that were processed that way were too fragile to survive transport in that manner. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Jul 19 18:24:20 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2010 19:24:20 -0400 Subject: Valves/Tubes was: ez80 In-Reply-To: <4C446926.29169.1992B50@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4C4325EE.16922.1C0221B@cclist.sydex.com> <4C446926.29169.1992B50@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > The problem with the pre-WWII receiving tube system is that there > were several systems. ?For example, the hugely popular UV201A means a > type 01 triode, with a UV base and a thoriated tungsten (A) filament. > In the RCA handbooks, the tube is simply listed as type 01A. To nitpick, not entirely true. In the original RCA system, U means unit, V mean vacuum tube, and the 201 means it is a type 201. The A indeed means the improved version. Capacitors were UC, resistors were UR, and so forth. I think the type numbers were unique - there are UV-201s, but I do not think there are any UR-201 or UC-201, for example. Yes, RCA themselves renamed the tube 01A, but this was after the independents hijacked the system. They did so very effectively, and even RCA fell in line by the early 1930s. > Each manufacturer also had their own system, so for instance, Hytron > had HYxxx numbers, in addition to their own "GTX" ceramic based > versions of popular tubes. Be careful, here. Specialized and transmitting type numbers were indeed in their own world, but almost all US manufacturers stuck to the system for receiving types. Hytron was no exception. A Hytron 6SQ7 will be an industry standard 6SQ7. Considering all of the subcontracting and tube swaps done by RCA and the independents, even back in the 1930s, it was extremely wise for everyone to stick to the rules. > Raytheon had their CKxxx numbers, which they carried over to the > solid-state world (remember the CK722?). Once again, be careful. For receiving types, Raytheon used the same system everyone else did. Occasionally they would put their vanity prefix on a high quality premium tube (CK-36 is a standard 36). > On the other hand, 1D5-GP is a pentode; a 1D5-GT is a > tetrode. This is one of the very few times the industry really broke their own rules. There are only a few instances of this happening, and the mostly deal with battery tubes all around 1933 or so. Past these few screwups, receiving tube number duplication was pretty unknown in the US, save a few times a European or Japanese type was unofficially slipped into the system without industry approval. Those tubes are almost never seen today. > For example, an 866A is a mercury-vapor > rectifier with a 5 amp, 2.5v filament and a 10KV PRV rating and a > 1000 ma peak current capacity. You mean UV-866, correct? Hehe... > As I said, it's like Boston. Ironically, yesterday I was in Boston buying and selling tubes. And of course I got lost after straying from Mass Ave. So, yes, the US system has a lot of quirks and burps, but for the most part, the consistency from even the early days thru the end was very impressive. The US truly is (was?) the land of standardized parts. -- Will From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Mon Jul 19 18:59:23 2010 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2010 16:59:23 -0700 Subject: recovering cartridge tapes (was: Tek fiches found! In-Reply-To: <4C44D9BB.4070701@neurotica.com> References: >, <4C447151.12348.1B912DB@cclist.sydex.com> <4C44D9BB.4070701@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <7c66a3f6bdc23001566d64e1c92de7cd@cs.ubc.ca> On 2010 Jul 19, at 4:03 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > > Every vacuum-column drive I've seen has used pressure sensors to > determine the position of the tape loops within the columns. Granted > I've not seen a HUGE variety of different drives, but...just sayin'. > On the desk beside me, I'm looking at a part from a Honeywell vac-col tape drive. It's an aluminum extrusion 1/2-inch wide and about 6 inches long, with a masked glass plate on one side. Inside, spread along the length are 8 selenium photocell strips. I think this was located somewhere around the mid-point on the vacuum column, that is, the target area in the column to keep the tape loop at. Perhaps optical was chosen for servo response time compared to mechanical pressure switches. I haven't examined a large variety of drives either, but at least on some drives, the sensors are not distributed evenly along the length of the column, but are concentrated around the target area, and become sparser towards the extremities. Never seen it, but one could imagine a hybrid design with optical sense around the target area and pressure sense further out. From bryan.pope at comcast.net Mon Jul 19 19:19:10 2010 From: bryan.pope at comcast.net (Bryan Pope) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2010 20:19:10 -0400 Subject: Educator 64 for sale! Message-ID: <4C44EB7E.2040503@comcast.net> First there was a PET 64, now here is an Educator 64! http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=190420575028 Cheers, Bryan From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Jul 19 19:27:15 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2010 20:27:15 -0400 Subject: recovering cartridge tapes In-Reply-To: <4C447A6F.19215.1DCAE17@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4C44D9BB.4070701@neurotica.com> <4C447A6F.19215.1DCAE17@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4C44ED63.9040306@neurotica.com> On 7/19/10 7:16 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> Every vacuum-column drive I've seen has used pressure sensors to >> determine the position of the tape loops within the columns. Granted >> I've not seen a HUGE variety of different drives, but...just sayin'. > > Take a look at the bitsavers archive for the CDC 606 tape drive. 2 > photosensors per column. (page 1-6). The 60x drives were marvels of > engineering and built like tanks. Sweet! I will check that out. I've never seen a 606 in person. The 92181 (a.k.a. CDC Keystone, a.k.a. DEC TU-80) is one of my all-time favorite tape drives. Not vacuum-column, but still, an ingenious and wonderful design. I've had three over the years, sold all of them, have regretted it ever since. If anyone in the southeastern US has one in need of a home.. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Jul 19 19:33:21 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2010 20:33:21 -0400 Subject: recovering cartridge tapes In-Reply-To: <7c66a3f6bdc23001566d64e1c92de7cd@cs.ubc.ca> References: >, <4C447151.12348.1B912DB@cclist.sydex.com> <4C44D9BB.4070701@neurotica.com> <7c66a3f6bdc23001566d64e1c92de7cd@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <4C44EED1.2010003@neurotica.com> On 7/19/10 7:59 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: >> Every vacuum-column drive I've seen has used pressure sensors to >> determine the position of the tape loops within the columns. Granted >> I've not seen a HUGE variety of different drives, but...just sayin'. >> > > On the desk beside me, I'm looking at a part from a Honeywell vac-col > tape drive. It's an aluminum extrusion 1/2-inch wide and about 6 inches > long, with a masked glass plate on one side. Inside, spread along the > length are 8 selenium photocell strips. Wow, that's nifty. What vintage is that drive, any idea? > I think this was located somewhere around the mid-point on the vacuum > column, that is, the target area in the column to keep the tape loop at. > Perhaps optical was chosen for servo response time compared to > mechanical pressure switches. > > I haven't examined a large variety of drives either, but at least on > some drives, the sensors are not distributed evenly along the length of > the column, but are concentrated around the target area, and become > sparser towards the extremities. Never seen it, but one could imagine a > hybrid design with optical sense around the target area and pressure > sense further out. Yes, I've seen those nonlinear sensor distributions too. My Kennedy 9400 uses continuously-variable pressure transducers along the vacuumn columns. They are effectively variable capacitors. That drive also has an 8088 CPU and an 8279 keypad/display interface in it. Neat stuff. :) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From lproven at gmail.com Mon Jul 19 20:30:36 2010 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2010 02:30:36 +0100 Subject: Any former Psion 5 owners out there? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 19 July 2010 21:37, Tony Duell wrote: >> >> On 18 July 2010 20:25, Tony Duell wrote: >> >> > The HP95LX/100LX (and I assume the 200LX, although I have never used one) >> > have 1 feature that is essential for me, and another that is highly >> > desirable. >> > >> > The first is a good terminal emulator, with plain text, kermit and xmodem >> > up/down loading. >> >> I'm sure you're right, but in all my years on the Psion 5/5mx, I never >> ever used a terminal emulator, as far as I can recall. > > As I said, it depends on what you use the machine for. 99% of users want > a device to carry data from their desktop machine (appointments, phone > number database ,etc) around. I don't. I sue my palmtop as a tool for > fixing classic computers. And a temrinal that I can fit just about > anywhere (rather than having to get a real VT100 to fit in somewhere) is > very useful. > >> The series 3 had one in ROM, but the ROM was in the serial interface. >> Plug in the RS232 cable, suddenly, a VT100/200 app became available. >> :=AC) > > Right. The serial port is built into the HP machines you just need a > cable, and it is a simple cable with no internal electronics (I've built > enough of them over the years...) I am very happy to say that I have not used a serial port for anything in a good 2-3y now, and not for anything more than a very occasional sync of my Psion 7book (and one old PC - Freecycled away a couple of years ago - with a serial mouse) since the turn of the century. There were only a small number of times in the late 1990s. I really hate RS232. It is the most troublesome interface of any kind on any computer I've ever used. I celebrate its disappearance with joy and I hope never to have to use such a port again. All the crap with baud rates, stop bits, parity bits, flow control and all that hateful 1960s-ish nonsense is just a fading memory now and I hope I never have to refresh it. Apple did serial ports right on the Mac. You plugged things in, they worked, thankyou and goodnight. But try interfacing non-Apple kit to Macs, or to anything else, and the horror-story of RS232 dropped you into the nightmare of RS423 and so on. I shudder to recall. I really like USB. For storage, I preferred Firewire, but that's going away now, sadly. But USB works, is wonderfully versatile, fairly idiot-proof and does everything I want or need: keyboard, mice, scanners, printers, storage, modems and networking once in a blue moon... It's terrific. > The advantage of having it built-in, in ROM, is that it's always there. > If the batteries have gone so flat that the memory is lost, you can put > in a couple more AA cells (and those are available _anywhere_) and have a > working terminal again. No need to have to find some way to download > something to the machine. And you can bet that the batteries will be flat > when you're called to fix some obscure machine somewhere, well away from > your workshop/PC. Not an issue. I kept all the software on my S5 and 7book on a CompactFlash card, so it was non-volatile and survived power loss, flat batteries etc. >> Primarily, the machines were a pocket database/diary, secondly a >> writing tool, thirdly mobile phone backup & SMS messagebase >> management, and peripheral to these, a calculator and occasional web >> browser. I tried out the email but never actually used it apart from >> the occasional emergency. > > Most of those applications I would have no use for at all. /De gustibus non est disputandam./ However, I would point out that, quite aside from my personal life, in my career as a field engineer and general IT bod, my Psions were great helps to me. They held my appointment books, my client contact details, and numerous databases of reference info, from RSR232 (F/X: *spit*) pinouts and PC I/O port and IRQ assignments, standard definitions, command references and all sorts. That, surely, would be of use to you? > Hmmm. I found (and this is not atypical from discussions with others) > that it takes a couple of hours at most to learn to use an RPN > calcualtor, but after that you never want to go back. It's simply so much > more convnient and easy to use. You don;'t ahve to worry aobut the order > of operations -- the operatios are performed in the order you type them. > So remembering whether -2^4 is (-2)^4 or -(2^4) is not a problem any more. I very rarely use a calculator at all any more - usually just for totting up bills and things. I am perfectly happy with conventional arithmetic, never find it a limitation or hazard, and generally dislike having to adapt my habits to the patterns of logic of machines. The purpose of computers is as an aid to my mind; they, I feel, should come to me, not me to them. Thus I never learned, nor even tried to, any assembly language or machine code; I bought faster computers and continued to use BASIC. I dislike C, Perl and so on. I seldom used to use hex, preferring decimal and binary. There is of course an art to finding the right balance, but I tend to favour ease over efficiency, simplicity over complexity and so on. -- Liam Proven ? Profile & links: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Mon Jul 19 20:56:18 2010 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2010 18:56:18 -0700 Subject: recovering cartridge tapes In-Reply-To: <4C44EED1.2010003@neurotica.com> References: >, <4C447151.12348.1B912DB@cclist.sydex.com> <4C44D9BB.4070701@neurotica.com> <7c66a3f6bdc23001566d64e1c92de7cd@cs.ubc.ca> <4C44EED1.2010003@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <5110ec243199ca8c0e3b2a0420ed47be@cs.ubc.ca> On 2010 Jul 19, at 5:33 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 7/19/10 7:59 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: >>> Every vacuum-column drive I've seen has used pressure sensors to >>> determine the position of the tape loops within the columns. Granted >>> I've not seen a HUGE variety of different drives, but...just sayin'. >>> >> >> On the desk beside me, I'm looking at a part from a Honeywell vac-col >> tape drive. It's an aluminum extrusion 1/2-inch wide and about 6 >> inches >> long, with a masked glass plate on one side. Inside, spread along the >> length are 8 selenium photocell strips. > > Wow, that's nifty. What vintage is that drive, any idea? > It was 7-track, so along with what I saw of the construction, early-mid 60's. I only got some bits and pieces, mostly the head/capstan deck, never actually saw the whole thing. From silent700 at gmail.com Mon Jul 19 21:00:49 2010 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2010 21:00:49 -0500 Subject: Educator 64 for sale! In-Reply-To: <4C44EB7E.2040503@comcast.net> References: <4C44EB7E.2040503@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Mon, Jul 19, 2010 at 7:19 PM, Bryan Pope wrote: > ?First there was a PET 64, now here is an Educator 64! > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=190420575028 Yours? There was an Educator up opposite your PET64 (congrats on that sale btw) but I don't think it sold. If it's the same one, then the price was (appropriately) lowered. -- j From lynchaj at yahoo.com Mon Jul 19 21:46:47 2010 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2010 22:46:47 -0400 Subject: FW: 68K ISA project Message-ID: --- On Wed, 7/14/10, Andrew Lynch wrote: > I'll continue researching and hopefully something will turn > up.? If any of > our German/European colleagues have access to the PC Par > 68000 article in > "mc" from 1989 and would be willing to scan I would greatly > appreciate it as > it seems to be the most practical solution at the moment. Weren't you the OP? I done said Radio Electronics had a series on building a 68K box w/ISA slots. I perused the 1st installment this morning, and yep it'll run an MDA card (CGA probably too), and stock floppy controllers, as well as hard disk controllers. What more could you want! Keep in mind though the original developer is on these lists somewhere, and wants big bucks for the (more or less complete) kit. So you'll have to contact him if you want to use his firmware. I don't have the entire set of installments, but presumably (though don't quote me) the artwork was available right in the magazine. [AJL>] Hi Chris, Would you please tell me which Radio Electronics like year, month, had the 68K circuit. If the design is proprietary then it is probably not a usable design. What you are describing sounds like a 68K motherboard in the PC or AT format. My plan is to place the 68K SBC on an ISA board starting with an ISA prototyping board. If you or someone else would please scan the article it sounds very interesting whether it would be useful for my project or not. I've found a good circuit with a complete schematic and description. It has some firmware and appears complete. Also it is public domain hardware and free (speech -- GPL) software so it is an ideal home brew project. It makes sense to me to do a little research and select an established home brew 68K project and use it as a base to extend to the ISA board rather than reinvent the circuit entirely. Thanks and have a nice day! Andrew Lynch From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Jul 19 21:58:22 2010 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2010 20:58:22 -0600 Subject: FW: 68K ISA project In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C4510CE.8010407@jetnet.ab.ca> Andrew Lynch wrote: > I've found a good circuit with a complete schematic and description. It has > some firmware and appears complete. Also it is public domain hardware and > free (speech -- GPL) software so it is an ideal home brew project. It makes > sense to me to do a little research and select an established home brew 68K > project and use it as a base to extend to the ISA board rather than reinvent > the circuit entirely. > > Thanks and have a nice day! But would it be useable? I can see a home brew 68K running OS/9 (microware) software as fast multi-tasking system. The problem is all the 68K systems I can think of, was basic in ROM or some sort of graphics computer like the Mac. ( Classic Mac with 128KB of memory ). > Andrew Lynch > Ben. From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jul 19 22:00:40 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2010 20:00:40 -0700 Subject: recovering cartridge tapes In-Reply-To: <4C44ED63.9040306@neurotica.com> References: , <4C44ED63.9040306@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4C44AEE8.8332.2A9A71C@cclist.sydex.com> On 19 Jul 2010 at 20:27, Dave McGuire wrote: > Sweet! I will check that out. I've never seen a 606 in person. 1200 lbs. of orange-y goodness. CDC replaced them with the 65x series, which was a somewhat cost- reduced version (ISTR that the voice-coil vacuum valves were one of the big corners cut). Dark grey with blue glass; not nearly as imposing. Supplanted by the 66x drives, which were autothreading (most of the time, anyway) and with an automatic drive "window". There was also a 1" version of the drive, the 626. I wonder if any survive. --Chuck From rodsmallwood at btconnect.com Tue Jul 20 01:37:09 2010 From: rodsmallwood at btconnect.com (RodSmallwood) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2010 07:37:09 +0100 Subject: What is OBA11-VA? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Internally in DEC it was referred to as a Shoe Box 11 Rod XDEC -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Shoppa, Tim Sent: 18 July 2010 21:26 To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: RE: What is OBA11-VA? > I ran across a DEC OBA11-VA (attached to a dual TU58 drive) while sorting > my junk room. Anyone have a link to documentation or any information on it? The BA11-VA was a small Q-bus enclosure with power supply. Most often, in the "SB11' system, it enclosed an LSI-11/03 equipped with a MXV11 and sometimes extra serial lines like DLV11J and sometimes a GPIB card (IBV11?) or general purpose parallel I/O. If yours had TU58's attached it was probably used like a small industrial/scientific controller or data logger or development system. Sometimes they had custom applicatons burnt into the EPROM in the MXV11, other times they just used a regular bootloader and booted RT-11 from TU58 which than ran the application. Look inside and see if you've got IBV11's or other I/O type cards. Up through the 90's similar small desktop Q-bus chassis were sold by MTI and Andromeda for similar purposes (although by the 90's with more modern peripherals than the TU58!) I traveled with an Andromeda Q-bus system a lot in the 90's. Tim.= From jws at jwsss.com Mon Jul 19 15:41:28 2010 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2010 13:41:28 -0700 Subject: Amlyn Minipac diskette changer In-Reply-To: References: , <4C41649B.7546.4A61F@cclist.sydex.com>, <4C41DDC2.21327.1DDE4E1@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4C44B878.5010407@jwsss.com> I talked to Tom Freeman who owned Vista, and is not that technical about this. The assets of Vista were auctioned off, so he did not retain any documentation of any sort, sad to say. However from what he recalls they probably did have preformatted media. I do have a pile "somewhere" of the media from vista, but it will be well buried and is 1300 miles from me (and will be some time before I can get to it). I'll share here when I find it and let anyone interested then have the media. I have 2 changers in the pile as well. There was an engineer who did the software and hardware for Vista, but I know he purged his archives about 15 or 20 years ago my direction, and there was no documentation about this product at that time, sad to say. Jim On 7/19/2010 5:00 AM, Steven Hirsch wrote: > On Sun, 18 Jul 2010, Steven Hirsch wrote: > >>> On 17 Jul 2010 at 16:16, Steven Hirsch wrote: >>> >>>> I pulled down a copy of their patent application for the unit and it >>>> almost looks like the Minipac diskettes have some sort of pre-written >>>> servo track. Perhaps the unit can actually write this servo, but >>>> without documentation I'm just surmising. >>> >>> Could be. It sounds a bit like the Drivetec drives of the same time >>> period. Something like (ISTR) 192 tpi, using an embedded servo, >>> making factory-formatted disks mandatory, something that probably did >>> more to kill the drive than anything else. I've still got a couple >>> of the Kodak/Drivetecs with media from Dysan, but basically they >>> exist for the eventuality that someone, somewhere has data written on >>> one of these that they need to get at. >> >> Gets stranger as I go... I disassembled the drive to take a short at >> cleaning the heads. Turns out to be "head" (singular). If the total >> capacity is 6MB, then they were writing 160 tracks on a single side. >> That's pushing the envelope for mechanical alignment on a floppy and >> certainly explains why they used servo-feedback positioning instead >> of blind stepping like a conventional drive. The majority of claims >> on the patent pertained to track positioning, so this is all consistant. > > .. It appears that the OEM Amlyn diskettes are pre-formatted in > some manner. > > I found a utility (from my Vista 8" Apple subsystem) that recognized > the data on my Amlyn drive cartridge and was able to retrieve the > system generation and format utilities. The latter works fine on one > of the cartridge diskettes, so I tried it on a blank 1.2M HD floppy > that was cut up to fit the unit. > > The new disk loads properly without mechanical issues, but will not > format or otherwise show signs of life. I'm guessing they wanted to > preserve a market for blank diskettes and cartridges. Reminds me of > the DEC Rainbow (wasn't that system deliberately crippled to prevent > it from being able to format blank media?). > > Steve > > > From tingox at gmail.com Mon Jul 19 18:10:48 2010 From: tingox at gmail.com (Torfinn Ingolfsen) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2010 01:10:48 +0200 Subject: Any former Psion 5 owners out there? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi, On Mon, Jul 19, 2010 at 5:44 PM, Liam Proven wrote: > On 18 July 2010 20:25, Tony Duell wrote: > > > The HP95LX/100LX (and I assume the 200LX, although I have never used one) > > have 1 feature that is essential for me, and another that is highly > > desirable. > > > > The first is a good terminal emulator, with plain text, kermit and xmodem > > up/down loading. > > I'm sure you're right, but in all my years on the Psion 5/5mx, I never > ever used a terminal emulator, as far as I can recall. > Just checked my 5mx, it is under Extras / Comms. It can do vt-100 as well as TTY. -- Regards, Torfinn Ingolfsen From bqt at softjar.se Mon Jul 19 18:21:05 2010 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2010 01:21:05 +0200 Subject: RTEM-11 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C44DDE1.4010603@softjar.se> "Jerome H. Fine" wrote: > >Johnny Billquist wrote: > >>> >> I suspect that the most likely possibility is that RTEM and RTEM-11 >>> >> are used. >> > >> > Huh? If you are suggesting that they would be the same, I can assure >> > you they could not. > > I would not assume anything until I actually had tested the presence or > absence of a > specific "feature". What have any features have to do with this? I'm telling you that RTEM-11 will not, and never have been capable of running on a VAX. If there was a RTEM product for the VAX, it would have to be a separate product, with a separate code base from RTEM-11, since you cannot write a RT-11 emulator of any kind in PDP-11 mode on a VAX. It will have to be VAX code. And thus, it can not be the same product as a RT-11 emulator program written to run under RSX. >> > A very common misconception these days seems to be that VAXen with >> > PDP-1 compatibility could run PDP-11 programs. That is only true in a >> > very limited sense. Only the basic PDP-11 instruction set is supported >> > by the VAX, and only the user mode stuff. EMTs, as well as any other >> > kind of traps, interrupts, and so on, was *not* supported. >> > When you execute an EMT in PDP-11 mode on a VAX, it will trap back to >> > VAX mode. No possibility to have a PDP-11 trap handler. > > The absence of a PDP-11 trap handler under VMS compatibility mode on a VAX > is definitely one possible situation. However, I suggest that it may > also be possible > for RTEM under VMS on a VAX to handle some of the SJ RT-11 EMT requests. Definitely. But the code that catches the trap, and does something will have to be VAX code, and not PDP-11 code. You cannot write a trap handler in PDP-11 code on a VAX, no matter how much of the PDP-11 compatibility that exist in the VAX hardware. The PDP-11 compatibility mode simple does not extend to that stuff. Period. >>> >> In addition, I also suspect that both Johnny and Ethan are correct in >>> >> that RTEM >>> >> was supported under both RSX and VMS on an older VAX which allowed >>> >> compatibility mode. >> > >> > It would have to be totally separate products in that case. > > AGREED!! Thank you. Now we can proceed. >>> >> I don''t know if Megan Gentry is still around or perhaps Allison or >>> >> one of the >>> >> other DEC fellows. Perhaps they might at least know something about >>> >> which >>> >> hardware and operating system(s) supported RTEM? >> > >> > I definitely remember (and probably still have some mail somewhere) >> > from Megan mentioning that she used RTEM-11 for RT-11 work, running on >> > RSX machines. Possibly even an 11/74. > > I don't have enough information about RSX to know if RTEM-11 was supported. > However, ... I'm telling you that it is. Just google for it, and you will find the documentation from DEC that is still on the net about this product. It's actually really simple. Go to "www.google.com". Type in "rtem-11 rsx" in the search field, and hit enter. The first hit will be http://www.google.se/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CBcQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bitsavers.org%2Fpdf%2Fdec%2Fpdp11%2Frsx11%2FRSX11M_V4.1_Apr83%2F1_Introduction%2FAA-M778J-TC_optSwXref_Jun83.pdf&ei=kNpETPb-BtqIOKXjtTc&usg=AFQjCNFv-lCjH9ifJeDiJ9sf_daeyGX9-A, which is "RSX-11M Optional Software Cross Reference Table", which lists what version of various software is compatible with RSX-11M V4.0 and V4.1. Among these, you'll find RTEM-11 V1.0 and V1.1. More "supported" than that is hard to get. >>> >> In addition, RSTS/E also supported RT-11 programs via the SWITCH RT11 >>> >> capability. However, only the RT-11 EMTs which are used by a SJ are >>> >> supported >>> >> by RSTS/E. At least there is quite reasonable documentation as well >>> >> as the ability >>> >> to test and actually run RT-11 programs under RSTS/E up to the latest >>> >> versions >>> >> of RSTS/E. RT-11 EMTs for mapped RT-11 monitors (RT11XM) are not >>> >> supported >>> >> not are multi-terminal EMTs. Also, probably the latest RT-11 EMTs >>> >> for file status >>> >> information are also not supported under RSTS/E. >> > >> > The correct technical term is that RSTS/E have a RT-11 *run time >> > system*. An RTS in RSTS/E provides an environment under which you can >> > get a specific behaviour. So you had RTSes for RT-11, RSX, BASIC+, >> > TECO, DCL and some other stuff. Some RTSes were also KBMs (keyboard >> > monitors), meaning you could "switch" to them, and get an interactive >> > command line interpreter with that. But the RTS mostly implemented >> > system calls. However, there were RTSes which didn't implement any >> > system calls, and only gave you the basic calls RSTS/E itself >> > provided, and mostly focused on being a KBM, such as DCL. > > I apologize for my lack of familiarity with the terminology. Your > description > is what I was attempting to say. :-) > Actually, my testing seems to show that RSTS/E supports being able to > run RT-11 programs even if the RT-11 RTS is not activated. For example: > RUN MACRO > is possible if the RTS is normal RSTS/E or RT-11. This might be based > on the > file type. RSTS/E may determine that MACRO.SAV is an RT-11 program and > support the RT-11 EMT requests. Or RSTS/E may support naked RT-11 EMT > requests from any program. That is something I should test. No, you are confusing things, and making wild guesses. What do you mean by "activated"? There is no activation. If an RTS is installed, it will always be used for programs that are marked as requiring that RTS. This is an "attribute" of a file. Whenever that file is run, it is run under the indicated RTS. If you try to run a program that requires an RTS that don't exist I would suspect that you'll get an error. Also, if you type "RUN MACRO", how do you know that you are even running the RT-11 version? RSTS/E normally also have an RSX RTS available, and an MACRO.TSK, which is MACRO-11 running under the RSX RTS. There is no RSTS/E RTS, by the way. >> > All exeutable files have an RTS associated with it, and when the >> > program is run, it is run under that RTS, which then handles all EMTs >> > and so on when the program executes them. > > Does the file type trigger the use of that RTS? Unless my memory have totally rotted away, the answer is no. The RTS associated with a file is an attribute of the file, just like file protection. There is a switch to PIP that you can use to check, and set, the RTS. That said, all RTS have a default file extension as well, and I think that is used to search for runnable files if you just type "RUN MACRO" for example. > I do have a question. With V7 of RSTS/E, the FIT program is able to > copy files from a drive with an RT-11 file structure (such as an RX02) > to the RSTS/E file structure. My initial testing with V10.1 of RSTS/E > shows that (at the very least the distribution which I am using) does not > have a FIT program. Is there some other method of making a copy of > a file on an RX02 with an RT-11 file structure to a device with a RSTS/E > file structure? Either FIT, or some "new" program that does the same thing, I'd guess. I'm no expert on RSTS/E, and my experience is old. I mostly ran RSTS/E between V7.1 and V9.0, with the majority of my time in the V7-V8 timeframe. > Also, is it possible to run an RT-11 program under a DEBUG mode? It > would be much easier to check out the code if that is possible. At the > moment, I can check most of the code under RT-11. However, the > portion which runs in a different manner under RSTS/E as opposed to > RT-11 since RSTS/E does not support all RT-11 EMT requests in the > same manner as RT-11. What do you mean by "debug" mode??? Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Mon Jul 19 18:54:50 2010 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2010 16:54:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 17" CRT - Worth Keeping? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <373255.28552.qm@web65503.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> --- On Mon, 7/19/10, Tony Duell wrote: > And there are some monitors where I would find a way to > replace any > transformers that failed, as I mentioned in another > message. I got beat (or rather just beat myself) out of a beautiful color NCR PC4. Most people would say big deal, but I wanted the damned thing! Just another peecee, ay? HA! Anyway I do have in my possession 3 mono versions, in various states of having pooped the bed. I think what I might do one of these days in replace the whole monitor chassis w/something more likable (i.e color). Not OEM stuff, just anything that'll handle whatever card I use to generate the color signals. Beats blowing glass tubes. Winding transformers isn't so bad, but still, ick! From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Tue Jul 20 02:59:26 2010 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2010 09:59:26 +0200 (CEST) Subject: ez80 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 19 Jul 2010, Tony Duell wrote: > In other words, if oyu know what the valve is, fine, but there's no way > you'll work it out from the type number. But if somebody says to me > 'EFM1', I know it's a combination signal pentode and 'magic eye' > indicator (yes, such a device did exist!) with a 6.3V heater on a P side > contact base. And a UCH81 is a triode-hexode freqeucny changer with a > 100mA series-string heater on a B9A base. And so on And that even (mostly) works with the old Telefunken scheme, e.g. REN904 or RENS1374d. Christian From tshoppa at wmata.com Tue Jul 20 07:39:27 2010 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2010 08:39:27 -0400 Subject: recovering cartridge tapes (was: Tek fiches found! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Al writes: > I have been using conventional drives for 1/2" tape recovery. > John Bordyuik's web site at one point described the system he uses, > which has a modified M4 data tranport fitted with an IBM 3480 16 track > magnetorestrictive head and modified read electronics. In either case > the tape transport is conventional. His current website is different than the old one but he's got some good techie tidbits mixed in with technical whiz-bang and very satisfyingly shows recovered data and graphical representations of analysis techniques and post-processing for application specific data, along with a heavy sales pitch at: http://www.johnbordynuik.com/sites/default/files/tech_briefing.pdf Tim. From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Tue Jul 20 08:13:07 2010 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2010 09:13:07 -0400 Subject: RTEM-11 In-Reply-To: <4C44DDE1.4010603@softjar.se> References: <4C44DDE1.4010603@softjar.se> Message-ID: <4C45A0E3.7020505@compsys.to> >Johnny Billquist wrote: > >"Jerome H. Fine" wrote: > >> I would not assume anything until I actually had tested the presence >> or absence of a >> specific "feature". > > What have any features have to do with this? > I'm telling you that RTEM-11 will not, and never have been capable of > running on a VAX. > If there was a RTEM product for the VAX, it would have to be a > separate product, with a separate code base from RTEM-11, since you > cannot write a RT-11 emulator of any kind in PDP-11 mode on a VAX. It > will have to be VAX code. And thus, it can not be the same product as > a RT-11 emulator program written to run under RSX. I agree that it is obvious that the RTS code will be written in the native instruction set of the system under which the RTS is running. That means that the RTS system under RSTS/E executes PDP-11 instructions and uses RSTS/E EMT requests. As you state, under VMS and a VAX, VAX instructions are used. And if I may push the envelope a bit, under SIMH, x86 instructions are used if we agree to call SIMH or E11 a RTS of a different kind, although the more descriptive name is emulator. My reference to a specific "feature" is with respect to the actual details of the RTS in question. For RSTS/E, the RTS to handle RT-11 EMT requests does not support even all of the RT-11 EMT requests which the RT11SJ monitor in RT-11 supports. For example, the .CStatus request is ignored and the .SaveStatus request return the "dev:filnam.typ" and [PPN] for the file in question rather than the five Channel Status words used in an RT-11 environment. So there are significant differences between the RT-11 RTS under RSTS/E and an actual RT11SJ monitor running under a PDP-11 instruction set (specified so as to include both a DEC CPU and an emulator such as SIMH). >>>> >> In addition, I also suspect that both Johnny and Ethan are >>>> correct in >> that RTEM >>>> >> was supported under both RSX and VMS on an older VAX which allowed >>>> >> compatibility mode. >>> >>> > It would have to be totally separate products in that case. >> >> AGREED!! > > Thank you. Now we can proceed. > >>>> >> I don''t know if Megan Gentry is still around or perhaps Allison >>>> or >> one of the >>>> >> other DEC fellows. Perhaps they might at least know something >>>> about >> which >>>> >> hardware and operating system(s) supported RTEM? >>> >>> > I definitely remember (and probably still have some mail >>> somewhere) > from Megan mentioning that she used RTEM-11 for RT-11 >>> work, running on > RSX machines. Possibly even an 11/74. >> >> I don't have enough information about RSX to know if RTEM-11 was >> supported. >> However, ... > > I'm telling you that it is. Just google for it, and you will find the > documentation from DEC that is still on the net about this product. > It's actually really simple. Go to "www.google.com". Type in "rtem-11 > rsx" in the search field, and hit enter. > The first hit will be > http://www.google.se/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CBcQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bitsavers.org%2Fpdf%2Fdec%2Fpdp11%2Frsx11%2FRSX11M_V4.1_Apr83%2F1_Introduction%2FAA-M778J-TC_optSwXref_Jun83.pdf&ei=kNpETPb-BtqIOKXjtTc&usg=AFQjCNFv-lCjH9ifJeDiJ9sf_daeyGX9-A, > which is "RSX-11M Optional Software Cross Reference Table", which > lists what version of various software is compatible with RSX-11M V4.0 > and V4.1. Among these, you'll find RTEM-11 V1.0 and V1.1. More > "supported" than that is hard to get. Thank you for the reference. Although this does make my goal of having the code support running the program under the RTEM-11 RTS even more difficult. On the other hand, I doubt that anyone will be likely to even test the RTEM-11 handling portion of the code, so I am probably going to just assume that what works for the RT-11 RTS system under RSTS/E will also suffice for the RTEM-11 RTS under RSX-11. >>>> >> In addition, RSTS/E also supported RT-11 programs via the >>>> SWITCH RT11 >>>> >> capability. However, only the RT-11 EMTs which are used by a SJ >>>> are >> supported >>>> >> by RSTS/E. At least there is quite reasonable documentation as >>>> well >> as the ability >>>> >> to test and actually run RT-11 programs under RSTS/E up to the >>>> latest >> versions >>>> >> of RSTS/E. RT-11 EMTs for mapped RT-11 monitors (RT11XM) are >>>> not >> supported >>>> >> not are multi-terminal EMTs. Also, probably the latest RT-11 >>>> EMTs >> for file status >>>> >> information are also not supported under RSTS/E. >>> >>> > The correct technical term is that RSTS/E have a RT-11 *run time > >>> system*. An RTS in RSTS/E provides an environment under which you >>> can > get a specific behaviour. So you had RTSes for RT-11, RSX, >>> BASIC+, > TECO, DCL and some other stuff. Some RTSes were also KBMs >>> (keyboard > monitors), meaning you could "switch" to them, and get >>> an interactive > command line interpreter with that. But the RTS >>> mostly implemented > system calls. However, there were RTSes which >>> didn't implement any > system calls, and only gave you the basic >>> calls RSTS/E itself > provided, and mostly focused on being a KBM, >>> such as DCL. >> >> I apologize for my lack of familiarity with the terminology. Your >> description >> is what I was attempting to say. > > :-) > >> Actually, my testing seems to show that RSTS/E supports being able to >> run RT-11 programs even if the RT-11 RTS is not activated. For example: >> RUN MACRO >> is possible if the RTS is normal RSTS/E or RT-11. This might be >> based on the >> file type. RSTS/E may determine that MACRO.SAV is an RT-11 program and >> support the RT-11 EMT requests. Or RSTS/E may support naked RT-11 EMT >> requests from any program. That is something I should test. > > No, you are confusing things, and making wild guesses. > What do you mean by "activated"? There is no activation. If an RTS is > installed, it will always be used for programs that are marked as > requiring that RTS. This is an "attribute" of a file. Whenever that > file is run, it is run under the indicated RTS. If you try to run a > program that requires an RTS that don't exist I would suspect that > you'll get an error. That is what I had assumed, however, I am curious how RSTS/E decides which RTS to use - or none at all as the case might be. > Also, if you type "RUN MACRO", how do you know that you are even > running the RT-11 version? RSTS/E normally also have an RSX RTS > available, and an MACRO.TSK, which is MACRO-11 running under the RSX RTS. When MACRO.SAV is run (under the RSTS/E RTS or any other RTS or under any other operating system including RT-11 and TSX-Plus, it is simple to just type at the "*" prompt to obtain the version number and so identify which program is being run. > There is no RSTS/E RTS, by the way. > >>> > All exeutable files have an RTS associated with it, and when the > >>> program is run, it is run under that RTS, which then handles all >>> EMTs > and so on when the program executes them. >> >> Does the file type trigger the use of that RTS? > > Unless my memory have totally rotted away, the answer is no. The RTS > associated with a file is an attribute of the file, just like file > protection. There is a switch to PIP that you can use to check, and > set, the RTS. > That said, all RTS have a default file extension as well, and I think > that is used to search for runnable files if you just type "RUN MACRO" > for example. That answer helps quite a bit. Thank you! >> I do have a question. With V7 of RSTS/E, the FIT program is able to >> copy files from a drive with an RT-11 file structure (such as an RX02) >> to the RSTS/E file structure. My initial testing with V10.1 of RSTS/E >> shows that (at the very least the distribution which I am using) does >> not >> have a FIT program. Is there some other method of making a copy of >> a file on an RX02 with an RT-11 file structure to a device with a RSTS/E >> file structure? > > Either FIT, or some "new" program that does the same thing, I'd guess. > I'm no expert on RSTS/E, and my experience is old. I mostly ran RSTS/E > between V7.1 and V9.0, with the majority of my time in the V7-V8 > timeframe. Well, I am having difficulty finding the "new" program under V10.1 of RSTS/E. I finally managed to figure out how to MOUNT the RL02 drives I am "using" (don't forget that all the code is being run under SIMH or E11) under V7 of RSTS/E when I am running V10.1 of RSTS/E. Since FIT had already copied to file to the RL02 drives, I could then used PIP to copy the program in I am testing to the correct [PPN] on the DU0: drive which is being "used" to run V10.1 of RSTS/E. A bit inconvenient, but fortunately faster than on a DEC system. >> Also, is it possible to run an RT-11 program under a DEBUG mode? It >> would be much easier to check out the code if that is possible. At the >> moment, I can check most of the code under RT-11. However, the >> portion which runs in a different manner under RSTS/E as opposed to >> RT-11 since RSTS/E does not support all RT-11 EMT requests in the >> same manner as RT-11. > > What do you mean by "debug" mode??? I am not sure if RSX-11 has an SD(X).SYS device driver like RT-11 which handles the BPT instructions placed in a program running under RT-11 when the user wants to stop a program in the middle of running and check out the code. The SD(X).SYS device driver under RT-11 supports the features that the ODT subroutine handles without the requirement for that subroutine to be part of the program which is being tested. Under TSX-Plus, there is a so-called debug option which invokes the same sort of support. Since the SD(X).SYS is written as a device driver in RT-11 (starting with around V5.4 of RT-11 if I remember correctly), debugging a program under RT-11 became much easier since ODT was no longer inserted into the program being tested. I was hoping that RSTS/E has the same sort of feature available, but that does not seem to be the case. But then how did users debug their programs under RSTS/E? Jerome Fine From snhirsch at gmail.com Tue Jul 20 06:43:08 2010 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2010 07:43:08 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Amlyn Minipac diskette changer In-Reply-To: <4C44B878.5010407@jwsss.com> References: , <4C41649B.7546.4A61F@cclist.sydex.com>, <4C41DDC2.21327.1DDE4E1@cclist.sydex.com> <4C44B878.5010407@jwsss.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 19 Jul 2010, jim s wrote: > I talked to Tom Freeman who owned Vista, and is not that technical about > this. The assets of Vista were auctioned off, so he did not retain any > documentation of any sort, sad to say. However from what he recalls they > probably did have preformatted media. I do have a pile "somewhere" of the > media from vista, but it will be well buried and is 1300 miles from me (and > will be some time before I can get to it). Doug Laing of Laing Electronics purchased the rights to their Apple 2 products around 1984-5. I have no idea if they are still around or if he has any of the software or docs. > I'll share here when I find it and let anyone interested then have the media. > I have 2 changers in the pile as well. Cool, thanks! > There was an engineer who did the software and hardware for Vista, but I know > he purged his archives about 15 or 20 years ago my direction, and there was > no documentation about this product at that time, sad to say. I recall speaking with "John" at Vista about driver issues on my Apple IIe. Is that who you're referring to, perhaps? It is really aggravating when folks "purge" this type of information. For the love-of-Mike, how much trouble is it to run off a tape or burn it to a DVD? The same thing happened to most of Applied Engineering's technical docs when they went Chapter 11. Everything went into the dumpster. Steve -- From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Jul 20 09:15:46 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2010 10:15:46 -0400 Subject: Serial interfaces (was Re: Any former Psion 5 owners out there?) Message-ID: On 7/19/10, Liam Proven wrote: > I am very happy to say that I have not used a serial port for anything > in a good 2-3y now, and not for anything more than a very occasional > sync of my Psion 7book... I use serial ports every week. > I really hate RS232. It is the most troublesome interface of any kind > on any computer I've ever used. I celebrate its disappearance with joy > and I hope never to have to use such a port again. All the crap with > baud rates, stop bits, parity bits, flow control and all that hateful > 1960s-ish nonsense is just a fading memory now and I hope I never have > to refresh it. It may be hateful 1960s nonsense, but if you know how it works, presuming you have the ability to control all the parameters of one end of a connection (software-controlled params, jumpers, straps, solder bumps, etc), you can still take something made in 1968 and attach it to something made in 2008. One recent case in point - After a couple of nights studying the schematics and the present state of the wiring (they mostly matched, after a fashion) of a 1970s Bridgeport Series II CNC mill (that has an embedded LSI-11 CPU!), I was able to build a round-8-pin-connector to DE-9 serial cable and interface the Bridgeport to a modern Dell that was also being used to drive a Shopbot. One thing relevant to this discussion about it was that we struggled with verifying that it worked when we tried to talk to it via a handy Thinkpad with a USB serial adapter (communication worked from the Bridgeport, but not to it). On a hunch, once we located a 6' extender cable, it worked on the Dell the first try. I'm reasonably certain the voltages on the USB serial adapter were out of spec for "true" RS-232 - the Bridgeport uses 1488s and 1489s, not modernish MAX232 drivers or other wiildly-forgiving line drivers/recievers. So for wiring up a passive cable, I was able to breathe life into a 30+ year old three ton machine. I was possible because I had a machine with a proper RS-232 port that stepped in where a machine that only had USB failed. > Apple did serial ports right on the Mac. You plugged things in, they > worked, thankyou and goodnight. Mac-designed things, sure, but Apple didn't make it easy to talk to the world full of "standard" serial devices (of which there were *lots* in the 1980s). > But try interfacing non-Apple kit to > Macs, or to anything else, and the horror-story of RS232 dropped you > into the nightmare of RS423 and so on. I shudder to recall. Exactly. Around the time the Mac switched from DE-9s to DIN8s, I was in the business of manufacturing serial interfaces for DEC hosts. I worked with sync and async RS-232 cables and ports and drivers and application code every day. I still found it to be a pain to get the right arrangement to hook a Mac up to some foreign device. It got easier later when you could just buy a suitable cable off the shelf, but for a time, it was difficult. > I really like USB. I really do not like USB. It takes hundreds of cycles and more to move a simple message, it's a host-based, not bi-directional design, and it's only available on somewhat newish kit. The host-based aspect of it is probably my biggest peeve - with a serial port, it's just TxD, RxD and perhaps some handshaking lines (more likely in the past, but sometimes supported in recent products). What that means to me is that I can buy a device that might be intended as a client (a Palm Pilot, to give a specific and handy example) and by dropping an app on it, turn what was manufactured to be a "receptive" device into an "active" device - such as use it as a VT100 replacement for configuring Cisco routers (boy my boss's eyes bugged out when I pulled a Palm out of my pocket, clicked in a serial cable and fixed something in seconds instead of leaving the room, retrieving a laptop, setting it up, etc., etc.) A USB-equipped Palm is meant to be addressed as a 'peripheral' and cannot be a 'host' - that limits its usefulness to me. > For storage, I preferred Firewire, but that's going away now, sadly. I will agree with you there. Just last night, I was helping a friend with a dying LaCie drive on a Macbook and I was happy we had a Firewire 800 cable that walked into the door at the right moment - it turned a 55 hour copy job via USB into a 31 hour copy job (dd to a container file - hopefully there's enough left of the old drive to extract enough files from to make the exercise worthwhile). > But USB works, is wonderfully versatile, fairly > idiot-proof and does everything I want or need: keyboard, mice, > scanners, printers, storage, modems and networking once in a blue > moon... It's terrific. It has some advantages - power for light-duty peripherals is great, simple connectors is great, not having to worry about DCE and DTE orientation is handy. It's great for mice and keyboards, sure, but I'm less convinced about higher-bandwidth uses. And lest you think this is all some sort of neo-luddite rant, I've built and programmed USB-based peripherals like the USB4LCD. I participate (occasionally in recent years) on the libusb developers' mailing list. I've written user-mode USB drivers with libusb. I've debugged USB command packets and initialization code. I'm using a USB mouse right now. USB still drives me nuts. I'm hardly advocating the death of USB (though I don't think I'd shed a lone tear over it). What disappoints me is the loss of a "real" serial port on portable hardware (starting with old Macbooks, but now across the Intel world as well) and the massive overhead that comes with using a "USB serial port" (like the well-documented problems that Makerbot folks have with FTDI driver issues - things work better when you don't have a USB physical layer between your application code and your Makerbot, but few people run that way, in part because for many bot owners, their Netbooks or Macbooks or whatever have any sort of way to talk to the outside world except WiFi, Ethernet or USB). I also do a lot with microcontrollers, MCS51-family and Atmel AVR, mostly. You _can_ make an 8MHz Atmel do USB in software (cf USB4LCD), but it's a whole lot easier to tell that same chip that there's someone connected on its UART and speaking async at 9600 8N1 - you get lots more of your ROM available for application code, and you can attach that MCU to a much larger field of devices with a simple serial port. -ethan P.S. - I know USB is "consumer-friendly" and I know I fall far, far outside the definition of a "consumer", but that doesn't change the fact that ubiquitous RS-232 ports make my life easier and USB comes with a bag of hassles. From tshoppa at wmata.com Tue Jul 20 09:19:41 2010 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2010 10:19:41 -0400 Subject: Valves/Tubes was: ez80 Message-ID: Will writes: > The US truly is (was?) the land of standardized parts. And the even better part, is there are so many standards to choose from!!! Occasionally I get to even use Whitworth threads here at work :) Tim. From lproven at gmail.com Tue Jul 20 09:33:24 2010 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2010 15:33:24 +0100 Subject: Serial interfaces (was Re: Any former Psion 5 owners out there?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 20 July 2010 15:15, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 7/19/10, Liam Proven wrote: >> I am very happy to say that I have not used a serial port for anything >> in a good 2-3y now, and not for anything more than a very occasional >> sync of my Psion 7book... > > I use serial ports every week. > >> I really hate RS232. It is the most troublesome interface of any kind >> on any computer I've ever used. I celebrate its disappearance with joy >> and I hope never to have to use such a port again. All the crap with >> baud rates, stop bits, parity bits, flow control and all that hateful >> 1960s-ish nonsense is just a fading memory now and I hope I never have >> to refresh it. > > It may be hateful 1960s nonsense, but if you know how it works, > presuming you have the ability to control all the parameters of one > end of a connection (software-controlled params, jumpers, straps, > solder bumps, etc), you can still take something made in 1968 and > attach it to something made in 2008. > > One recent case in point - After a couple of nights studying the > schematics and the present state of the wiring (they mostly matched, > after a fashion) of a 1970s Bridgeport Series II CNC mill (that has an > embedded LSI-11 CPU!), I was able to build a round-8-pin-connector to > DE-9 serial cable and interface the Bridgeport to a modern Dell that > was also being used to drive a Shopbot. ?One thing relevant to this > discussion about it was that we struggled with verifying that it > worked when we tried to talk to it via a handy Thinkpad with a USB > serial adapter (communication worked from the Bridgeport, but not to > it). ?On a hunch, once we located a 6' extender cable, it worked on > the Dell the first try. ?I'm reasonably certain the voltages on the > USB serial adapter were out of spec for "true" RS-232 - the Bridgeport > uses 1488s and 1489s, not modernish MAX232 drivers or other > wiildly-forgiving line drivers/recievers. > > So for wiring up a passive cable, I was able to breathe life into a > 30+ year old three ton machine. ?I was possible because I had a > machine with a proper RS-232 port that stepped in where a machine that > only had USB failed. > >> Apple did serial ports right on the Mac. You plugged things in, they >> worked, thankyou and goodnight. > > Mac-designed things, sure, but Apple didn't make it easy to talk to > the world full of "standard" serial devices (of which there were > *lots* in the 1980s). > >> But try interfacing non-Apple kit to >> Macs, or to anything else, and the horror-story of RS232 dropped you >> into the nightmare of RS423 and so on. I shudder to recall. > > Exactly. ?Around the time the Mac switched from DE-9s to DIN8s, I was > in the business of manufacturing serial interfaces for DEC hosts. ?I > worked with sync and async RS-232 cables and ports and drivers and > application code every day. ?I still found it to be a pain to get the > right arrangement to hook a Mac up to some foreign device. ?It got > easier later when you could just buy a suitable cable off the shelf, > but for a time, it was difficult. > >> I really like USB. > > I really do not like USB. ?It takes hundreds of cycles and more to > move a simple message, it's a host-based, not bi-directional design, > and it's only available on somewhat newish kit. > > The host-based aspect of it is probably my biggest peeve - with a > serial port, it's just TxD, RxD and perhaps some handshaking lines > (more likely in the past, but sometimes supported in recent products). > ?What that means to me is that I can buy a device that might be > intended as a client (a Palm Pilot, to give a specific and handy > example) and by dropping an app on it, turn what was manufactured to > be a "receptive" device into an "active" device - such as use it as a > VT100 replacement for configuring Cisco routers (boy my boss's eyes > bugged out when I pulled a Palm out of my pocket, clicked in a serial > cable and fixed something in seconds instead of leaving the room, > retrieving a laptop, setting it up, etc., etc.) > > A USB-equipped Palm is meant to be addressed as a 'peripheral' and > cannot be a 'host' - that limits its usefulness to me. > >> For storage, I preferred Firewire, but that's going away now, sadly. > > I will agree with you there. ?Just last night, I was helping a friend > with a dying LaCie drive on a Macbook and I was happy we had a > Firewire 800 cable that walked into the door at the right moment - it > turned a 55 hour copy job via USB into a 31 hour copy job (dd to a > container file - hopefully there's enough left of the old drive to > extract enough files from to make the exercise worthwhile). > >> But USB works, is wonderfully versatile, fairly >> idiot-proof and does everything I want or need: keyboard, mice, >> scanners, printers, storage, modems and networking once in a blue >> moon... It's terrific. > > It has some advantages - power for light-duty peripherals is great, > simple connectors is great, not having to worry about DCE and DTE > orientation is handy. ?It's great for mice and keyboards, sure, but > I'm less convinced about higher-bandwidth uses. > > And lest you think this is all some sort of neo-luddite rant, I've > built and programmed USB-based peripherals like the USB4LCD. ?I > participate (occasionally in recent years) on the libusb developers' > mailing list. ?I've written user-mode USB drivers with libusb. ?I've > debugged USB command packets and initialization code. ?I'm using a USB > mouse right now. ?USB still drives me nuts. > > I'm hardly advocating the death of USB (though I don't think I'd shed > a lone tear over it). ?What disappoints me is the loss of a "real" > serial port on portable hardware (starting with old Macbooks, but now > across the Intel world as well) and the massive overhead that comes > with using a "USB serial port" (like the well-documented problems that > Makerbot folks have with FTDI driver issues - things work better when > you don't have a USB physical layer between your application code and > your Makerbot, but few people run that way, in part because for many > bot owners, their Netbooks or Macbooks or whatever have any sort of > way to talk to the outside world except WiFi, Ethernet or USB). > > I also do a lot with microcontrollers, MCS51-family and Atmel AVR, > mostly. ?You _can_ make an 8MHz Atmel do USB in software (cf USB4LCD), > but it's a whole lot easier to tell that same chip that there's > someone connected on its UART and speaking async at 9600 8N1 - you get > lots more of your ROM available for application code, and you can > attach that MCU to a much larger field of devices with a simple serial > port. > > -ethan > > P.S. - I know USB is "consumer-friendly" and I know I fall far, far > outside the definition of a "consumer", but that doesn't change the > fact that ubiquitous RS-232 ports make my life easier and USB comes > with a bag of hassles. Eloquently put. I readily concede that for many things it is, I am sure, a great interface. Personally, me, I'm a software man. I just about could solder up an RS232 D25 or DB9 cable in the 1980s; I've not tried since. I am strictly a board-level sort of chap when it comes to hardware and really dislike trying to fiddle around with chips, making cables etc. I usually break things. I am looking for a serial interface for my newly-acquire Amstrad PCW to turn it into a terminal for my VAXstation, and possibly even my Linux box. The thought of making up the cables and troubleshooting the connection fills me with dread. /For me/ - and, it must be said, in the mainstream home/office computer world in which I work - serial is a fading memory now. Parallel ports too. I don't think I've seen a new parallel device in a decade, either; a last few legacy devices are hanging around but they're mostly being pensioned off now. Mind you, saying that, at the UK VCF I saw BBC Micros being equipped with USB ports. Apparently it is entirely doable on '80s 8-bit kit, and a lot more use, as well as easier to use, than serial is, these days. -- Liam Proven ? Profile & links: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Jul 20 10:52:31 2010 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2010 10:52:31 -0500 Subject: Serial interfaces In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201007201555.o6KFtahx044463@billY.EZWIND.NET> At 09:15 AM 7/20/2010, Ethan Dicks wrote: >I really do not like USB. It takes hundreds of cycles and more to >move a simple message, it's a host-based, not bi-directional design, >and it's only available on somewhat newish kit. What drives me crazy is the lack of debugging of the stack. When it's not working on contemporary Windows kit, there's no way I've found to help understand what's not really working. This morning, I plugged a client's thumb drive into their laptop, and the logical drive seemed to disappear at random. I switch connectors, thinking it's a wonky physical connector, no difference. Just unreliable. Another stunner was that vmWare didn't support native USB on the host. They're accomplishing thousands of other miracles, but can't virtualize USB enough for me to connect a drive to a virtual appliance? (I think this is fixed in last month's major release.) I'm often trying to connect client hard drives to backup machines via USB-to-SATA/IDE adapters, and when the drive won't seem to wake-up or show up, there's no way to debug where it is failing. I suspect some of the opacity is deeper in Windows at the logical Disk Management level, with layers of "Disk 1" numbering, logical drives and partitions and SCSI emulation, a registry that records every drive fingerprint ever connected to it (really), etc. Last week, a client's thumb drives weren't being recognized. I had to reinstall Windows. I think Windows was failing at the very top layer, at the moment where a recognized device was known to be hard drive, but it couldn't show it as a logical drive. And yet so many built-in media-readers for CF/SD cards will show logical drive letters to the OS when there's nothing inserted. My desktop shows four. Why? - John From lproven at gmail.com Tue Jul 20 11:16:33 2010 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2010 17:16:33 +0100 Subject: Serial interfaces In-Reply-To: <201007201555.o6KFtahx044463@billY.EZWIND.NET> References: <201007201555.o6KFtahx044463@billY.EZWIND.NET> Message-ID: On 20 July 2010 16:52, John Foust wrote: > At 09:15 AM 7/20/2010, Ethan Dicks wrote: >>I really do not like USB. ?It takes hundreds of cycles and more to >>move a simple message, it's a host-based, not bi-directional design, >>and it's only available on somewhat newish kit. > > What drives me crazy is the lack of debugging of the stack. ?When > it's not working on contemporary Windows kit, there's no way I've > found to help understand what's not really working. > > This morning, I plugged a client's thumb drive into their laptop, and > the logical drive seemed to disappear at random. ?I switch connectors, > thinking it's a wonky physical connector, no difference. ?Just unreliable. > > Another stunner was that vmWare didn't support native USB on the host. > They're accomplishing thousands of other miracles, but can't virtualize > USB enough for me to connect a drive to a virtual appliance? > (I think this is fixed in last month's major release.) > > I'm often trying to connect client hard drives to backup machines via > USB-to-SATA/IDE adapters, and when the drive won't seem to wake-up > or show up, there's no way to debug where it is failing. > > I suspect some of the opacity is deeper in Windows at the logical > Disk Management level, with layers of "Disk 1" numbering, logical drives > and partitions and SCSI emulation, a registry that records every > drive fingerprint ever connected to it (really), etc. > > Last week, a client's thumb drives weren't being recognized. ?I had to > reinstall Windows. ?I think Windows was failing at the very top layer, > at the moment where a recognized device was known to be hard drive, > but it couldn't show it as a logical drive. > > And yet so many built-in media-readers for CF/SD cards will show > logical drive letters to the OS when there's nothing inserted. > My desktop shows four. ?Why? All fair points, but then, who ever used serial ports to connect mass storage? (I know there was a serial port hard disk for the first ever Mac, but that was from complete lack of any alternative.) The equivalents to USB for this sort of thing were SCSI, Firewire, eSATA and the like - or, arguably, ST-506, ESDI and PATA/ATAPI. Frankly, USB has caused me less trouble than any of them, considering the relative volumes. No ID setting, no jumpers, no termination, generic cables and it even works pretty smoothly across hubs, even multiple ones. It's a wonder. -- Liam Proven ? Profile & links: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From ray at arachelian.com Tue Jul 20 11:21:27 2010 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2010 12:21:27 -0400 Subject: Serial interfaces In-Reply-To: <201007201555.o6KFtahx044463@billY.EZWIND.NET> References: <201007201555.o6KFtahx044463@billY.EZWIND.NET> Message-ID: <4C45CD07.50402@arachelian.com> On 07/20/2010 11:52 AM, John Foust wrote: > Another stunner was that vmWare didn't support native USB on the host. > They're accomplishing thousands of other miracles, but can't virtualize > USB enough for me to connect a drive to a virtual appliance? > (I think this is fixed in last month's major release.) > Works beautifully under VMWare Fusion. And when I did have to use windows, it worked nicely under VMWare server. It disconnects the device from the host OS and passes the USB connection to the guest. I've not tried it under VMWare Workstation, but I suspect it would work just the same. Yeah, the lack of serial ports on modern machines is annoying. There are plenty of USB to serial cables out there, but not all of them work well, and the device moves around, making it annoying to find. Is it com3? com2? com37? :-) From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Jul 20 11:36:39 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2010 12:36:39 -0400 Subject: Serial interfaces In-Reply-To: <4C45CD07.50402@arachelian.com> References: <201007201555.o6KFtahx044463@billY.EZWIND.NET> <4C45CD07.50402@arachelian.com> Message-ID: On 7/20/10, Ray Arachelian wrote: > On 07/20/2010 11:52 AM, John Foust wrote: >> Another stunner was that vmWare didn't support native USB on the host. >> They're accomplishing thousands of other miracles, but can't virtualize >> USB enough for me to connect a drive to a virtual appliance? Yes. That's been a deficiency for some time. >> (I think this is fixed in last month's major release.) I've heard it works with ESX(i) 4.1. Unfortunately, we are using ESXi 3.5, ESXi 4.0, and ESX 4.0. :-( > Works beautifully under VMWare Fusion. And when I did have to use > windows, it worked nicely under VMWare server... I've not tried it under > VMWare Workstation, but I suspect it would work just the same. Probably, but in the enterprise world I work in, we moved away from the host-OS-based VM platforms (Server/Workstation) over a year ago, and except for losing our ability to plug in USB drives full of off-site backups, the change was a big win. We went from a Dell box that crashed and locked up every two weeks while running VMware Server 2 over Win2K8 to 10 months (and counting!) of continuous server uptime with ESXi 4.0 on the *same hardware*. > Yeah, the lack of serial ports on modern machines is annoying. There > are plenty of USB to serial cables out there, but not all of them work > well, and the device moves around, making it annoying to find. Is it > com3? com2? com37? :-) That's another annoyance - plus if you plug in two USB serial dongles from the same vendor, it's not exactly easy for the application to guess which device you were talking to the last time you ran. Considering there's a real-world device on the far end, consistency kinda matters. -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Jul 20 12:00:09 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2010 13:00:09 -0400 Subject: Serial interfaces In-Reply-To: References: <201007201555.o6KFtahx044463@billY.EZWIND.NET> Message-ID: On 7/20/10, Liam Proven wrote: > On 20 July 2010 16:52, John Foust wrote: >> At 09:15 AM 7/20/2010, Ethan Dicks wrote: >>>I really do not like USB. It takes hundreds of cycles and more to >>>move a simple message, it's a host-based, not bi-directional design, >>>and it's only available on somewhat newish kit. >> >> What drives me crazy is the lack of debugging of the stack. When >> it's not working on contemporary Windows kit, there's no way I've >> found to help understand what's not really working. It's not just Windows - debugging the stack under Linux isn't any better. At least with libusb, I have the source and can inject debugging printf()s into it. With a serial port, you can turn an old machine with two serial interfaces into a snooper and capture the traffic, or use an old HP4951 protocol analyzer (I have more than one) which is _really_ designed to snoop sync, async, RS-232, RS-423, etc. We even used one to simulate an IBM PU Type 4 to trace our product's code (a PU Type 2 emulator) and how it handled various bits in the BIND sequence. >> This morning, I plugged a client's thumb drive into their laptop... >> >> Another stunner was that vmWare didn't support native USB on the host... >> >> I'm often trying to connect client hard drives to backup machines... >> >> Last week, a client's thumb drives weren't being recognized... > > All fair points, but then, who ever used serial ports to connect mass > storage? (I know there was a serial port hard disk for the first ever > Mac, but that was from complete lack of any alternative.) Given the speeds available, that was not a typical use for serial ports, though I have done plenty of sync and async networking (X.25, DDCMP, HASP, 3780, SNA). > The equivalents to USB for this sort of thing were SCSI, Firewire, > eSATA and the like - or, arguably, ST-506, ESDI and PATA/ATAPI. Agreed. I find SCSI, Firewire and eSATA all superior for attaching external storage. We had to move away from USB to eSATA at work, partially due to a lack of USB support via enterprise-grade VMware (mentioned in another message) and partially due to speed. Copying 20 million files took *4 days* over USB and switching to eSATA on the same host reduced the copy time to 18 hours. I also mentioned earlier that I'm in the middle of a copy that started last night of 1TB that was going to take 55 hours via USB but dropped to 31 hours when someone with a Firewire 800 cable in her bag literally just happened to walk in at the right moment. Firewire is no harder to plug in or configure or use than USB, but as you pointed out earlier, is unfortunately dying out. My old laptop had real serial, USB 2.0 and Firewire. My new laptop has USB 2.0 and eSATA. I miss my old laptop (though I do think eSATA is one of the few actual improvements, vs feature curtailments, we've seen lately). > Frankly, USB has caused me less trouble than any of them, considering > the relative volumes. No ID setting, no jumpers, no termination, > generic cables and it even works pretty smoothly across hubs, even > multiple ones. It's a wonder. Generic cables? The ends are generic, sure, but there's A, B, mini A, several types of mini B (one dominant, but hardly unique), and then there's USB 1.1 vs USB 2.0 in terms of cable ratings (but will a USB 1.1-marked cable pushed to 2.0 speeds really be too noisy or is that just marketing?) I have no less than 5 flavors of USB cables lying around the house, though two of the 5 are the most common. SCSI is its own nightmare, especially in the early days, and doubly so when vendors decide to get cute (like Apple's non-standard DB25 SCSI connector on the Mac Plus that turned into a standard for SCSI-1 but couldn't handle Fast or Wide, etc). I've hooked up a lot of SCSI drives and in the enterprise world, where people spend real money for products that better "just work", they do. The consumer arena is another matter entirely and there are lots of short cuts and wild variations from vendor to vendor that make the situation worse. On the desktop, when I was the one placing the orders, I bought Adaptec and sidestepped a lot of minor-player driver and termination and connector hassles. Unfortunately, not all of my associates did the same, so I did have messes to contend with. SCSI _is_ standardized, but not everyone decided to follow the standard. That actually brings up another annoyance I have with USB - it's trying to replace several interfaces at once - RS-232, PS/2 and SCSI - for connecting peripherals to your machine. Insofar as it's trying to cover all those bases, it does a passable job, but I think it merely fills the gap passably - with the exception of reducing the variety of connector types a consumer is exposed to (from dozens down to 3-5), it merely replaces old problems with new problems. -ethan From fsmith at ladylinux.com Tue Jul 20 12:26:08 2010 From: fsmith at ladylinux.com (Fran Smith) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2010 13:26:08 -0400 Subject: Thinning The Herd Message-ID: <4C45DC30.6090004@ladylinux.com> Hi Guys, I am mostly a Lurker here and very much enjoy and will continue to enjoy reading the posts here. However I am feeling a need to thin down my collection some that I have been accumulating over the last 10 years. I am looking for people to show up here with some cash and a truck and to haul away some of my prized possession's. I don't have any blinking light DEC machines anymore or anything ultra rare like a Lisa but I do have a large assortment of PDP 11/23 and other QBus equipment. As well as a decent sized collection of regular PDP 11 Unibus and mass buss boards. I also have many different types of workstations such as Dec Professionals , Rainbows and 3100 and 4000 series gear. Also a virtual pile of peripherals. Also some smaller stuff like KayPro , Osborne etc. Also much software as well and a couple nice televideo terminals. Now I did pay good cash money for all of this and its all been stored in a climate controlled clean area. So anyone who wants a instant collection or just wants to come by and kick the tires and do some dealing please e-mail me at fsmith at ladylinux dot com. Please try and keep communications off list as this is not really applicable I feel. Thanks!! Fran (Mid Alantic USA) From Mark at Misty.com Tue Jul 20 12:38:33 2010 From: Mark at Misty.com (Mark G. Thomas) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2010 13:38:33 -0400 Subject: need Lisa parts In-Reply-To: <478304.162.qm@web65503.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> References: <478304.162.qm@web65503.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20100720173833.GA82402@allie.home.misty.com> Hi, On Sat, Jul 17, 2010 at 01:53:38PM -0700, Chris M wrote: > in particular a nice crt-chassis, etc. > > I was perusing the vintage computer marketplace a few weeks back, and someone had some of that very stuff. I think it may even have been Erik. In any event I don't know how to contact anyone on that site anymore, because someone gummed up the works LOL. > > please let me know. Much obliged. I've got a complete Lisa which is in good cosmetic shape, however sadly it has significant water damage, at least to the CPU related boards. Electrical parts shielded from the overnight it spent in the rain might be fine, but no promises. I'm not sure if you mean you need good electronics or just mechanical chassis parts, but please contact me directly if you might be interested in my Lisa for it's parts. Mark -- Mark G. Thomas (Mark at Misty.com) Web: http://mgtinternet.com/ Tel: +1-215-512-0112 US: 877-512-0112 From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Jul 20 12:50:12 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2010 13:50:12 -0400 Subject: Serial interfaces (was Re: Any former Psion 5 owners out there?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C45E1D4.2060304@neurotica.com> On 7/20/10 10:15 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 7/19/10, Liam Proven wrote: >> I am very happy to say that I have not used a serial port for anything >> in a good 2-3y now, and not for anything more than a very occasional >> sync of my Psion 7book... > > I use serial ports every week. Only every week? Every DAY here. ;) >> I really hate RS232. It is the most troublesome interface of any kind >> on any computer I've ever used. I celebrate its disappearance with joy >> and I hope never to have to use such a port again. All the crap with >> baud rates, stop bits, parity bits, flow control and all that hateful >> 1960s-ish nonsense is just a fading memory now and I hope I never have >> to refresh it. > > It may be hateful 1960s nonsense, but if you know how it works, > presuming you have the ability to control all the parameters of one > end of a connection (software-controlled params, jumpers, straps, > solder bumps, etc), you can still take something made in 1968 and > attach it to something made in 2008. Agree 100% here. For anything non-consumery, async serial is still the mainstay, and likely always will be. I use serial ports all day, every day when I wear either my embedded systems designer or network engineer hats. The only time I generally don't use it is when I'm wearing my programmer hat. What's so hard about baud rates, stop bits, parity bits, and flow control? I'll take that over the USB enumeration process any day. That said, I am definitely a fan of USB, but when something's not working, simpler is better, and USB is FAR from simple for anything but the most pedestrian of consumer-level uses. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From scott.m.18 at atsgate.com Tue Jul 20 13:20:18 2010 From: scott.m.18 at atsgate.com (Scott M) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2010 12:20:18 -0600 Subject: DEC PDP 11/23 - OK to use 22-bit memory boards in an 18-bit qbus? Message-ID: <4C45E8E2.5A169492@atsgate.com> Hello, I recently acquired my first DEC PDP. It is a VT103 (VT100 terminal with a PDP 11/23 inside). It came with a pair of cartridge disk drives (HEAVY!) that are RK05 compatible, a DEC RX02 (pair of 8" floppy disk drives), boxes of manuals, 3 DEC operating systems, software, and an extra VT100. While the DEC operating systems are OK, I am actually interested in using the machine to (finally) go through "Lions' Commentary on Unix" (Unix V6), using software downloaded from http://www.tuhs.org/. (Lions' book here): http://www.amazon.com/dp/1573980137/ After I do that, I want to move up to Unix v7, 2.9BSD, and try other Unix distros available for the PDP. My concern is that the 18-bit PDP 11/23 does not have enough memory. It currently has 128KB installed, with a maximum of 256K possible after a memory board upgrade (M8067, MSV11-PK = 256KB). How far do you estimate I can get with just 128KB memory? Can I get through Lions' book? I am looking at adding wires to the backplane to make it a 22-bit machine, and using a quad height qbus memory board, M7551 (available in 1MB, 2MB and 4MB sizes). However, I am not ready to dive in and start modifying the qbus backplane for 22-bit addressing just yet. So my question is: Rather than invest in a 256KB memory board designed for the 18-bit qbus, can I install a 22-bit 1MB, 2MB or 4MB memory board in the 18-bit system, and just use the first 256KB for now? Also, is the VT103 backplane compatible with a quad-height memory board? (It only has dual-height cards installed at the present time). Parts inventory: - VT103, with: - 4x4 qbus backplane, 18-bit. The manual says "two H803s (2x4 connector blocks, stacked vertically in a 4x4 configuration)". I know there are possible issues with "straight" vs. "serpentine" slots, but I have not got that figured out yet on the VT103. - M8186 KDF11-A CPU (Newer revisions of KDF11-A's are 22-bit capable). http://world.std.com/~mbg/pdp11-field-guide.txt says: "(Prior to etch rev. C, 18-bit addressing only. ...)" I could not find revision information on the M8186 board, but "146 CA" is stamped into one of the red plastic handles. I can email close-up photos to anyone who wants to take a look and determine if this is a rev C or later board capable of 22-bit addressing. - M8043 Quad Serial board. This doc says it is 22-bit compatible: http://www.ibiblio.org/pub/academic/computer-science/history/pdp-11/hardware/micronotes/numerical/micronote5.txt - M8029 (RXV21) floppy disk board (18-bit DMA only). -Will this be a problem with Unix v6 or 2.9BSD if running with 22-bit addressing? - M8208 "VT103 Maintenance Module" (Unknown if 22-bit compatible). - Xylogics C510 (formerly called "Wizard 1") cartridge disk controller board, with 18-bit addressing, connected to a pair CDC 9427H "Hawk" disk drives (one disk drive is DOA, but the other is OK). - 3rd party memory board (128KB), Christlin Industries, Inc. So, initially I want to run a 22-bit memory board (M7551) in an 18-bit VT103 qbus backplane, and access only the first 256KB of memory using 18-bit addressing. Is this possible? Thank you for your help. Scott M. From pete at dunnington.plus.com Tue Jul 20 13:29:53 2010 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2010 19:29:53 +0100 Subject: Serial interfaces (was Re: Any former Psion 5 owners out there?) In-Reply-To: <4C45E1D4.2060304@neurotica.com> References: <4C45E1D4.2060304@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4C45EB21.4040201@dunnington.plus.com> On 20/07/2010 18:50, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 7/20/10 10:15 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> On 7/19/10, Liam Proven wrote: >>> I am very happy to say that I have not used a serial port for anything >>> in a good 2-3y now, and not for anything more than a very occasional >>> sync of my Psion 7book... >> I use serial ports every week. > > Only every week? Every DAY here. ;) > Agree 100% here. For anything non-consumery, async serial is still > the mainstay, and likely always will be. I use serial ports all day, > every day when I wear either my embedded systems designer or network > engineer hats. Me too. I still have an RS232 breakout box on my desk at work, another near my desk here, and one in the workshop, though it's fair to say I've not had to use any of them in months. I do occasionally find a need for a null-modem. All our network gear has RS232 ports (or some compatible facsimile), and we've found assorted USB-to-RS232 adaptors that usually work (thank you, PuTTY and Kermit authors). Some of our equipment has USB but of limited value, and often only good to plug a memory stick into. And don't even ask how many different styles of USB cable I have to have. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.plus.com Tue Jul 20 13:54:46 2010 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2010 19:54:46 +0100 Subject: DEC PDP 11/23 - OK to use 22-bit memory boards in an 18-bit qbus? In-Reply-To: <4C45E8E2.5A169492@atsgate.com> References: <4C45E8E2.5A169492@atsgate.com> Message-ID: <4C45F0F6.6060700@dunnington.plus.com> On 20/07/2010 19:20, Scott M wrote: > I recently acquired my first DEC PDP. It is a VT103 (VT100 terminal with > a PDP 11/23 inside). It would originally have been an 11/03 card. > It came with a pair of cartridge disk drives (HEAVY!) > that are RK05 compatible, a DEC RX02 (pair of 8" floppy disk drives), boxes > of manuals, 3 DEC operating systems, software, and an extra VT100. > While the DEC operating systems are OK, I am actually interested in using > the machine to (finally) go through "Lions' Commentary on Unix" (Unix V6), > using software downloaded from http://www.tuhs.org/. (Lions' book here): > http://www.amazon.com/dp/1573980137/ > After I do that, I want to move up to Unix v7, 2.9BSD, and try other Unix > distros available for the PDP. > My concern is that the 18-bit PDP 11/23 does not have enough memory. > It currently has 128KB installed, with a maximum of 256K possible after a > memory board upgrade (M8067, MSV11-PK = 256KB). How far do you estimate I > can get with just 128KB memory? Can I get through Lions' book? Probably. My 11/23 runs Seventh Edition UNIX in 256KB quite happily. Modulo some swapping to disk, that is. > I am looking at adding wires to the backplane to make it a 22-bit machine, > and using a quad height qbus memory board, M7551 (available in 1MB, 2MB and > 4MB sizes). However, I am not ready to dive in and start modifying the qbus > backplane for 22-bit addressing just yet. So my question is: > Rather than invest in a 256KB memory board designed for the 18-bit qbus, > can I install a 22-bit 1MB, 2MB or 4MB memory board in the 18-bit system, > and just use the first 256KB for now? Yes, you can do that. Just check the power requirements, and whether the specific card(s) are compatible with a serpentine backplane. Also, is the VT103 backplane > compatible with a quad-height memory board? (It only has dual-height > cards installed at the present time). > > Parts inventory: > - VT103, with: > - 4x4 qbus backplane, 18-bit. The manual says "two H803s (2x4 connector > blocks, stacked vertically in a 4x4 configuration)". I know there are > possible issues with "straight" vs. "serpentine" slots, but I have not > got that figured out yet on the VT103. It's serpentine. Every dual slot can hold a dual card; some quad cards are compatible and some not. There's some backplane information at http://www.dunnington.u-net.com/public/PDP-11/QBus_chassis though that particular version isn't listed. > - M8186 KDF11-A CPU (Newer revisions of KDF11-A's are 22-bit capable). > http://world.std.com/~mbg/pdp11-field-guide.txt > says: "(Prior to etch rev. C, 18-bit addressing only. ...)" > I could not find revision information on the M8186 board, but "146 CA" > is stamped into one of the red plastic handles. I can email close-up > photos to anyone who wants to take a look and determine if this is a > rev C or later board capable of 22-bit addressing. > - M8043 Quad Serial board. This doc says it is 22-bit compatible: Yes, it is. What you need to know about I/O devices is that they don't fully decode all the memory address bits. All I/O lives in the highest address page, and there's a special enable signal called BBS7 that is active when (and only when) the CPU accesses that I/O page. All sensible QBus I/O cards decode that signal and only use the lower address bits to determine the address within the I/O page. Quite a few memory cards use BBS7 to know when to be DISabled, or have some other way of disabling the top 8K, so as not to interfere with I/O. > - M8029 (RXV21) floppy disk board (18-bit DMA only). -Will this be a > problem with Unix v6 or 2.9BSD if running with 22-bit addressing? I'm not sure either of those actually have drivers for an RXV21. That card will work OK in a 22-bit system without clashing with any memory addresses, but is only useful if the driver (exists and) understands to put the DMA buffers in the lowest 256KB. Some OS versions do exactly that: they tell the card to transfer data to/from low memory and then the CPU moves it if necessary (later version of RT-11 do that, for example). > - M8208 "VT103 Maintenance Module" (Unknown if 22-bit compatible). > - Xylogics C510 (formerly called "Wizard 1") cartridge disk controller > board, with 18-bit addressing, connected to a pair CDC 9427H "Hawk" > disk drives (one disk drive is DOA, but the other is OK). > - 3rd party memory board (128KB), Christlin Industries, Inc. Dunno about any of those, sorry. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From IanK at vulcan.com Tue Jul 20 13:59:15 2010 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2010 11:59:15 -0700 Subject: DEC PDP 11/23 - OK to use 22-bit memory boards in an 18-bit qbus? In-Reply-To: <4C45E8E2.5A169492@atsgate.com> References: <4C45E8E2.5A169492@atsgate.com> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Scott M > Sent: Tuesday, July 20, 2010 11:20 AM > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: DEC PDP 11/23 - OK to use 22-bit memory boards in an 18-bit > qbus? > > Hello, > > I recently acquired my first DEC PDP. It is a VT103 (VT100 terminal > with > a PDP 11/23 inside). It came with a pair of cartridge disk drives > (HEAVY!) > that are RK05 compatible, a DEC RX02 (pair of 8" floppy disk drives), > boxes > of manuals, 3 DEC operating systems, software, and an extra VT100. > While the DEC operating systems are OK, I am actually interested in > using > the machine to (finally) go through "Lions' Commentary on Unix" (Unix > V6), > using software downloaded from http://www.tuhs.org/. (Lions' book > here): > http://www.amazon.com/dp/1573980137/ > After I do that, I want to move up to Unix v7, 2.9BSD, and try other > Unix > distros available for the PDP. > My concern is that the 18-bit PDP 11/23 does not have enough memory. > It currently has 128KB installed, with a maximum of 256K possible after > a > memory board upgrade (M8067, MSV11-PK = 256KB). How far do you > estimate I > can get with just 128KB memory? Can I get through Lions' book? > I am looking at adding wires to the backplane to make it a 22-bit > machine, > and using a quad height qbus memory board, M7551 (available in 1MB, 2MB > and > 4MB sizes). However, I am not ready to dive in and start modifying the > qbus > backplane for 22-bit addressing just yet. So my question is: > Rather than invest in a 256KB memory board designed for the 18-bit > qbus, > can I install a 22-bit 1MB, 2MB or 4MB memory board in the 18-bit > system, > and just use the first 256KB for now? Also, is the VT103 backplane > compatible with a quad-height memory board? (It only has dual-height > cards installed at the present time). > FYI: I've successfully run Unix 6th Ed. on a PDP-11/34 with (of course) an 18-bit backplane, i.e. 124k words. ISTR, though, that it expects to see a front panel, and might take issue with a Qbus machine. I installed the software on an RK05 using Warren Toomey's VTserver software. Slow, but effective -- Ian From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Jul 20 14:03:53 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2010 15:03:53 -0400 Subject: Serial interfaces (was Re: Any former Psion 5 owners out there?) In-Reply-To: <4C45E1D4.2060304@neurotica.com> References: <4C45E1D4.2060304@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On 7/20/10, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 7/20/10 10:15 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> >> I use serial ports every week. > > Only every week? Every DAY here. ;) I can honestly admit that I take days off ;-) Of all the hours spent pumping bits over serial ports over the past year, I'd have to say that the most frequent occasions are reprogramming AVRs (via serial-aware bootloader), monitoring debug output from said AVRs, driving Makerbots, driving intelligent LCD displays, and interacting with Cisco consoles. I do these things every week, but not every day of the week. >>> I really hate RS232. It is the most troublesome interface of any kind >>> on any computer I've ever used.... >> >> It may be hateful 1960s nonsense, but if you know how it works... >> you can still take something made in 1968 and >> attach it to something made in 2008. > > Agree 100% here. For anything non-consumery, async serial is still > the mainstay, and likely always will be. That, I think, is key - "non-consumery". I have a lot of that lying about. I even build stuff from scratch that's trivial to interface to with RS-232 and wouldn't be so easy to embed USB into. As I admitted at the start, though, I recognize I'm far from a typical consumer. > I use serial ports all day, > every day when I wear either my embedded systems designer or network > engineer hats. The only time I generally don't use it is when I'm > wearing my programmer hat. I still use them while wearing my programmer hat, but I write drivers to talk to LCDs (www.lcdproc.org). > What's so hard about baud rates, stop bits, parity bits, and flow > control? Especially since 90% or more of what's in use today is 8N1 at some speed, very commonly 9600, though faster speeds are not rare. Yes, you might have to guess and test a few times (vs USB only having 3 possible speeds and the newer interfaces able to clock down to match), so I'd say it's only "hard" if nobody tells you what the other end is expecting and you end up trying all combinations of all parameters. Interfacing to the Bridgeport was made easier by being able to inspect the schematic - it uses a 6402 hardware-configured UART and the configuration is clearly 8N2 (which is unusual, but the schematic clearly shows it). The only time I've used parity recently is while connecting to an SBC6120 running OS/8. Other than that one platform (and that oddball Bridgeport), I haven't configured anything except 8N1 in probably 20 years. > I'll take that over the USB enumeration process any day. That > said, I am definitely a fan of USB, but when something's not working, > simpler is better, and USB is FAR from simple for anything but the most > pedestrian of consumer-level uses. Agreed. -ethan From pete at dunnington.plus.com Tue Jul 20 14:10:11 2010 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2010 20:10:11 +0100 Subject: DEC PDP 11/23 - OK to use 22-bit memory boards in an 18-bit qbus? In-Reply-To: <4C45E8E2.5A169492@atsgate.com> References: <4C45E8E2.5A169492@atsgate.com> Message-ID: <4C45F493.9050302@dunnington.plus.com> On 20/07/2010 19:20, Scott M wrote: > My concern is that the 18-bit PDP 11/23 does not have enough memory. > It currently has 128KB installed, with a maximum of 256K possible after a > memory board upgrade (M8067, MSV11-PK = 256KB). How far do you estimate I > can get with just 128KB memory? Can I get through Lions' book? > I am looking at adding wires to the backplane to make it a 22-bit machine, > and using a quad height qbus memory board, M7551 (available in 1MB, 2MB and > 4MB sizes). I forgot to mention one other web page: http://www.dunnington.u-net.com/public/PDP-11/QBus_memory lists most of the memory options in a table. Specifically, I can tell you that an M8067 MSV11-PK, and an M7551 MSV11-Q are both OK in Q22-Q22 serpentine backplanes. For the MSV11-P you need to ensure W1 and W2 are both in place to provide bus grant continuity. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Jul 20 14:13:18 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2010 15:13:18 -0400 Subject: DEC PDP 11/23 - OK to use 22-bit memory boards in an 18-bit qbus? In-Reply-To: <4C45E8E2.5A169492@atsgate.com> References: <4C45E8E2.5A169492@atsgate.com> Message-ID: On 7/20/10, Scott M wrote: > Hello, > > I recently acquired my first DEC PDP. It is a VT103 (VT100 terminal with > a PDP 11/23 inside). Nice. A bit underpowered in the PSU, but nice. > It came with a pair of cartridge disk drives (HEAVY!) > that are RK05 compatible, a DEC RX02 (pair of 8" floppy disk drives), boxes > of manuals, 3 DEC operating systems, software, and an extra VT100. Sounds like you are good to go. > While the DEC operating systems are OK, I am actually interested in using > the machine to (finally) go through "Lions' Commentary on Unix" (Unix V6) Ah, archaeology. ;-) > My concern is that the 18-bit PDP 11/23 does not have enough memory. > It currently has 128KB installed, with a maximum of 256K possible after a > memory board upgrade (M8067, MSV11-PK = 256KB). How far do you estimate I > can get with just 128KB memory? Can I get through Lions' book? That I don't know, but I do recall being unhappy whith 256KB when trying to re-compile the kernel for 2.9BSD after an install from tape (generic kernel). > I am looking at adding wires to the backplane to make it a 22-bit machine, > and using a quad height qbus memory board, M7551 (available in 1MB, 2MB and > 4MB sizes). Yep. Been there, done that. > However, I am not ready to dive in and start modifying the qbus > backplane for 22-bit addressing just yet. So my question is: > Rather than invest in a 256KB memory board designed for the 18-bit qbus, > can I install a 22-bit 1MB, 2MB or 4MB memory board in the 18-bit system, > and just use the first 256KB for now? Check the memories and peripherals handbook that covers your card (MSV11-P or some such, IIRC). You might well be able to disable the extra fields. The only issue I'd worry about up front is how the board might behave in a backplane that lacks termination for the top four address lines. > Also, is the VT103 backplane compatible with a quad-height memory board? (It > only has dual-height cards installed at the present time). Yes. > Parts inventory: > - VT103, with: > - 4x4 qbus backplane, 18-bit. The manual says "two H803s (2x4 connector > blocks, stacked vertically in a 4x4 configuration)". I know there are > possible issues with "straight" vs. "serpentine" slots, but I have not > got that figured out yet on the VT103. It's all serpentine. No "straight" slots. > - M8186 KDF11-A CPU (Newer revisions of KDF11-A's are 22-bit capable)... Yes. Chances are very good yours is a newer rev. They made a lot of them. > - M8029 (RXV21) floppy disk board (18-bit DMA only). -Will this be a > problem with Unix v6 or 2.9BSD if running with 22-bit addressing? Check the driver source. There is likely some code to handle DMA into a low-memory buffer then a copy to user-created buffer space. > So, initially I want to run a 22-bit memory board (M7551) in an 18-bit > VT103 qbus backplane, and access only the first 256KB of memory using > 18-bit addressing. Is this possible? Thank you for your help. It is likely to be possible - check the handbook. -ethan From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Jul 20 14:25:46 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2010 15:25:46 -0400 Subject: crazy projects in general Re: 68K (ISA) project In-Reply-To: <664655.64189.qm@web65514.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> References: <664655.64189.qm@web65514.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4C45F83A.8070202@neurotica.com> On 7/18/10 5:53 PM, Chris M wrote: > reading over your post got me to thinking Henk (and I took the liberty of deleting it - it already made the list - in deference to those paying by the kb). It would be nice if there were a group of us that would undertake group projects, like rigging together some kind of relatively small uP project. Being disposed to a democratic system, we could vote on projects - and the detractors would have to play along and play nice! LOL LOL Don't sound so democratic anymore! > Seriously though. We all need other's enthusiasm to feed off of. Many many moons ago I had it in mind to build a small 6800 board. That's not such a bad first group project, if my opinion matters. Of course I lean towards Intel stuff, but I'm not exclusive to it. I must admit I'd drool rather profusely when I find 80186/88 based stuff in particular. > If anyone is interested in this sort of *club*, please reply. And on list ;) > There are rather easy ways of homebrewing etched circuit boards for instance (the drilling is a bit more arduous though). I attended a *class* at last years Trenton Computer Festival where the instructor taught us how to mask copper boards w/a commonly found grocery store product. > Maybe a better 1st project would be to build an inexpensive CNC drilling device. > Feedback is necessary. That sounds like a wonderful idea. I am definitely interested. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Tue Jul 20 14:41:04 2010 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2010 20:41:04 +0100 Subject: Serial interfaces In-Reply-To: References: <201007201555.o6KFtahx044463@billY.EZWIND.NET> Message-ID: <005d01cb2843$7f147c80$7d3d7580$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> > With a serial port, you can turn an old machine with two serial > interfaces into a snooper and capture the traffic, or use an old > HP4951 protocol analyzer (I have more than one) which is _really_ > designed to snoop sync, async, RS-232, RS-423, etc. We even used one > to simulate an IBM PU Type 4 to trace our product's code (a PU Type 2 > emulator) and how it handled various bits in the BIND sequence. > RS-232 is such a pain, I just had some problems recently. I had never thought of using my PC as a way of snooping serial traffic. I have two serial ports on my machine. Does anyone know of any good software to do this? I could always write it myself, but it would be nice if there was already something there. Regards Rob From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Jul 20 14:51:54 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2010 15:51:54 -0400 Subject: Serial interfaces In-Reply-To: <8670261230290364122@unknownmsgid> References: <201007201555.o6KFtahx044463@billY.EZWIND.NET> <8670261230290364122@unknownmsgid> Message-ID: On 7/20/10, Rob Jarratt wrote: > >> With a serial port, you can turn an old machine with two serial >> interfaces into a snooper... > > RS-232 is such a pain, I just had some problems recently. I had never > thought of using my PC as a way of snooping serial traffic. I have two > serial ports on my machine. Does anyone know of any good software to do > this? I could always write it myself, but it would be nice if there was > already something there. Here are several: http://freshmeat.net/projects/linuxserialsniffer/ http://freshmeat.net/projects/serlook/ http://www.serialmon.com/ http://www.gumbley.me.uk/scope.html Some of these use one port and a special sniffer cable, some use two ports. There are other sniffers out there, I'm sure, but these were the ones that took less than two minutes to find. I haven't used any of them, so I can't recommend one vs another. I have commercial-grade gear for this (HP4951), but with all the options out there, you should be able to find a PC-based one that does what you need. -ethan From ray at arachelian.com Tue Jul 20 14:57:37 2010 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2010 15:57:37 -0400 Subject: MacPaint and QuickDraw source code released Message-ID: <4C45FFB1.90801@arachelian.com> Found the link below this morning, mostly assembly with some Pascal as to be expected. Hopefully more will show up. Looks like there's a nice history there as well. http://www.computerhistory.org/highlights/macpaint/ From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Jul 20 15:09:55 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2010 16:09:55 -0400 Subject: MacPaint and QuickDraw source code released In-Reply-To: <4C45FFB1.90801@arachelian.com> References: <4C45FFB1.90801@arachelian.com> Message-ID: On 7/20/10, Ray Arachelian wrote: > Found the link below this morning, mostly assembly with some Pascal as > to be expected. Hopefully more will show up. > Looks like there's a nice history there as well. > > http://www.computerhistory.org/highlights/macpaint/ Very nice! I was just telling stories about MacPaint (vs MacDraw) to a co-worker yesterday (as I was helping him convert a Visio drawing from disconnected entities to linked things that could be drug around as connected groups). Looks like some fun bedtime reading. Thanks for the announcement! -ethan From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jul 20 13:53:10 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2010 19:53:10 +0100 (BST) Subject: Formatting media issues (was Re: Amlyn Minipac diskette changer) In-Reply-To: from "Ethan Dicks" at Jul 19, 10 05:10:38 pm Message-ID: > That's one issue I recall with the transition from RK05 to RL01 as > "inexpensive" cartridge media in the DEC world. The RK05 has a > manually-aligned external positioner, and the RL01 (and RL02) uses > embedded servo data. One advantage to the RK05 technique is that you > can format packs that have been bulk-erased (since the platters only > contain data, not positioning info) One advantage to the RL01 is that > you don't have to be quite as precise with head alignment (you have to > be close enough for the embedded servo data to be legible, then, IIRC, > the positioner circuit can lock on the rest of the way). Actually, it will try to lock no matter how far out the heads are (think of what hapapnes when you load a pack, it moves the heads in until it detects the guard band and then servo data on the currently selected head (nromally head 0). But if the heads are misaligned between the 2 sides, it may lock to the wrong cylinder when you switch heads. But the RL's sure are easy to align, and you don't need an alignment pack which a plus... > > There was another method that was acceptable for multi-surface packs - > a servo surface. It's not worth dedicating an entire surface to > positioner data if you only have two surfaces - you get a poor But that's what the CDC Phoenix drive (9448 IIRC) did. It ws an 80 meg fixed/16 meg removable drive. 3 fixed platters (5 data surfaces of 16M each and a servo surface) and a front-loading pack with one platter (one data surface, one servo surface). Apprently they didn't feel the radial alignment between the removeable pack and the spindle/fixed pack to rely on the fixed servo surface when accessing the removeable platter. > space-to-cost ratio. If you have 4-8 surfaces, it's more practical to > give up a surface (vs a loss of some space for embedded servo info). E.g the RK06/RK07 (3 data surfaces, one servo surface). > An advantage of a servo-surface pack is that you can easily format the > data surfaces as long as you leave the servo surface untouched. > > I've heard of a field service device for writing servo data on a wiped > RL pack, but I've never seen one in person. I am sceptical. You would need to have a special positioner with mechancial feedback (so as to be able to position the heads without using the servo inforamtion), and I don't believe it could be made rugged enough to be able to be used in the field. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jul 20 13:25:51 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2010 19:25:51 +0100 (BST) Subject: recovering cartridge tapes (was: Tek fiches found! (was: Looking In-Reply-To: <4C4457FD.7434.156248F@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Jul 19, 10 01:49:49 pm Message-ID: > > On 19 Jul 2010 at 13:21, Richard wrote: > > > If we build a similar device for these cartrdige tapes we can avoid > > the capstan and drive belt problems and recover the data in a secure > > manner. > > I don't understand (I'm probably very dense today). The belt ensures > that the supply and takeup reels in a DCxxx cartridge move together. > The reels are not accessible without disassembling the cartridge. So? You disassemble the cartridge. It's not hard (particularly if you don't need to get it back together) > > How would one handle a cartridge with a broken belt with your idea? I think the idea is that you extract the tape itself from the cartridge and run it over a head in a specially-made drive and thus extract the data (really flux transitions) from it. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jul 20 14:03:54 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2010 20:03:54 +0100 (BST) Subject: Valves/Tubes was: ez80 In-Reply-To: <4C446926.29169.1992B50@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Jul 19, 10 03:03:02 pm Message-ID: > > On 19 Jul 2010 at 21:11, Tony Duell wrote: > > > And IIRC for octal valves, the metal envelope (early octals being > > those RCA metal things, of course) counted as an element. > > I don't believe so. 6L6 = metal beam power tube; 6L6G = glass > envelope. (not to mention GT, GA, GB, etc.). Sorry, I wasn;t clear. I didn't mean that the metal envelope version had a diferent number to the G and GT versions (not even the US valve numbers would be that stupid!). What I meant was that the octal based valve had a final digit that was one greater than a similar valve on a differnt base. For example, IIRC, the octal double diode triode is (for example) a 6Q7. The loctal one is a 7C6. An octal beam tetrode output valve might be a 6V6, but the local one is a 7C5. A 6H6 is n octal-based double signal diode, there's a B7G one (7 pin minuature) numbered 6AL5 Note that the final digit of the loctal/B7G is one less than that of the octal. I was told this was beacue the octal version included the envelope as element (because of the metal valves that had it connected to pin 1 (?)) whether it was there or not > Of course, a 12AP4 doesn't have a 12v filament, but is a 12" CRT with > a 2.5V filament and P4 phosphor. Sure, but I don;t think any manufaturer tried to include CRTs in their valve numbering scheme. I remember the Mazda CRT code, it started with a 'C' (for CRT :-)), then a letter giving the type of deflection used (M or E), then a thrid letter giving the focusing methof (again M or E), then 2 digits giving the screen size (diameter for a circular CRT, diagonal for a rectangular one, in inches), and finally another pair of digits to distiguish between otherwise indencially-numbered devices. So a CME1703 is a 17" CRT with magnetic deflection and electrostatic focussing. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jul 20 14:12:34 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2010 20:12:34 +0100 (BST) Subject: 17" CRT - Worth Keeping? In-Reply-To: <373255.28552.qm@web65503.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> from "Chris M" at Jul 19, 10 04:54:50 pm Message-ID: > I got beat (or rather just beat myself) out of a beautiful color NCR > PC4. Most people would say big deal, but I wanted the damned thing! Just THis is not a machine I am familiar with. > another peecee, ay? HA! Anyway I do have in my possession 3 mono > versions, in various states of having pooped > the bed. I think what I might do one of these days in replace the whole > monitor chassis w/something more likable (i.e color). Not OEM stuff, Now that is somethign that I would never do. I always want to keep a classic machine as close to the origianl design as possible. This means replacing the smallerst part I can with something electrically identical (r at least similar).. > just anything that'll handle whatever card I use to generate the color > signals. > Beats blowing glass tubes. Winding transformers isn't so bad, but > still, ick! Depends on the transformer. Winding things like horizotnal driver transformers is not hard at all. Flybacks ara pain becuase you essentailly have to vacuum-impregnate them to prevent breakdown amd I don't have the gear to do that. On the other hand, I beleive the model IC engine fraternity make their own ignition coils (or some of them do anyway) and vacuum-impregnate them, so it must be possible to do at home. One day I will look into it. of course when making a flylback the second problem is working out how many turns to put on, etc. IF the old one is 'potted' in epoxy, you can't unwind it and count turns as you can on normal transformers. The number of turns is rarely given in the service manual either :-( (but the manaul for my logic analyser does include that info for the flyback...) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jul 20 14:47:12 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2010 20:47:12 +0100 (BST) Subject: Valves/Tubes was: ez80 In-Reply-To: from "Shoppa, Tim" at Jul 20, 10 10:19:41 am Message-ID: > Occasionally I get to even use Whitworth threads here at work :) Camera triods? They are stated as 1/4" (or 3/8") BSW in the specs I've seen. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jul 20 14:46:08 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2010 20:46:08 +0100 (BST) Subject: Serial interfaces (was Re: Any former Psion 5 owners out there?) In-Reply-To: from "Ethan Dicks" at Jul 20, 10 10:15:46 am Message-ID: > > On 7/19/10, Liam Proven wrote: > > I am very happy to say that I have not used a serial port for anything > > in a good 2-3y now, and not for anything more than a very occasional > > sync of my Psion 7book... > > I use serial ports every week. Every week? I use them every day.. > > > I really hate RS232. It is the most troublesome interface of any kind > > on any computer I've ever used. I celebrate its disappearance with joy > > and I hope never to have to use such a port again. All the crap with > > baud rates, stop bits, parity bits, flow control and all that hateful > > 1960s-ish nonsense is just a fading memory now and I hope I never have > > to refresh it. > > It may be hateful 1960s nonsense, but if you know how it works, > presuming you have the ability to control all the parameters of one > end of a connection (software-controlled params, jumpers, straps, > solder bumps, etc), you can still take something made in 1968 and > attach it to something made in 2008. I must have well over 100 machiens with RS232 ports here. And I've never had any real porblems getting any pair of them to talk to each other. OK, IO have to read the fine manuals, I have to set some swiches, I may haveto make a cable, but that's it. it will work. My 1970 Philips P850 will talk to my 2000 HP49G. My HP9830/11205 interface will talk to my TRS-80 M100. And so on. > > Apple did serial ports right on the Mac. You plugged things in, they > > worked, thankyou and goodnight. > > Mac-designed things, sure, but Apple didn't make it easy to talk to > the world full of "standard" serial devices (of which there were > *lots* in the 1980s). You said it a lot more politely than I would ahve done. But to be fair, there were generally few problems if you stuck to machine and peripherals from the same manufacturer anyway. If you bought an HP desktop machien (say an HP120 CP/M machine or an HP150 tocuhscreen PC) and an HP seiral printer, then one of the manuals would tell you which HP cable to buy to link them (you did get wirelists if yuou wanted to make your own..) how to set the switches on the printer and how to configure thesetup screens on the computer. Do it just as they said and it worked. > > I really like USB. > > I really do not like USB. It takes hundreds of cycles and more to > move a simple message, it's a host-based, not bi-directional design, > and it's only available on somewhat newish kit. Basically my problems wit hit too. It's not summetrical ('host based'), it's over-complicated, and it's not available on anything I own. > > The host-based aspect of it is probably my biggest peeve - with a > serial port, it's just TxD, RxD and perhaps some handshaking lines > (more likely in the past, but sometimes supported in recent products). > What that means to me is that I can buy a device that might be > intended as a client (a Palm Pilot, to give a specific and handy > example) and by dropping an app on it, turn what was manufactured to > be a "receptive" device into an "active" device - such as use it as a > VT100 replacement for configuring Cisco routers (boy my boss's eyes > bugged out when I pulled a Palm out of my pocket, clicked in a serial > cable and fixed something in seconds instead of leaving the room, > retrieving a laptop, setting it up, etc., etc.) Which is where we came in, the idea of a palmtop machine that could be used as a terminal. > > A USB-equipped Palm is meant to be addressed as a 'peripheral' and > cannot be a 'host' - that limits its usefulness to me. Makes it useless for me :-) > It has some advantages - power for light-duty peripherals is great, > simple connectors is great, not having to worry about DCE and DTE > orientation is handy. It's great for mice and keyboards, sure, but > I'm less convinced about higher-bandwidth uses. Since it's not symmetirc, there are the equivalents of DTEs (host computers0 and DCEs (peripherals) in USB. The big differnece is that with RS232 you can make a null-modem adapter to connect 2 DTes or 2 DCEs, it's just a matter ot wiring up a coule of sockets. You can't do that with USB. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jul 20 14:59:47 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2010 20:59:47 +0100 (BST) Subject: Serial interfaces (was Re: Any former Psion 5 owners out there?) In-Reply-To: from "Liam Proven" at Jul 20, 10 03:33:24 pm Message-ID: [RS232] > I readily concede that for many things it is, I am sure, a great interface. It has the great advantage, for me, that it's avaialble on almost all my machines, from handheld calcualtors to minicomputers, from machines made in the 1970s to machines made after 2000. > > Personally, me, I'm a software man. I just about could solder up an > RS232 D25 or DB9 cable in the 1980s; I've not tried since. I am You meana DE9, surely? > strictly a board-level sort of chap when it comes to hardware and > really dislike trying to fiddle around with chips, making cables etc. > I usually break things. I was once told 'The designer who never blew a chip is a bad designer. he never designed anything' :-) More seriously, skill comes with practice -- lots of it. I don't worry about soldering up a D-series connector because I've been soldering them for 25 years or more. I do worry about reocnfiguring software because I fear I could end up erasing the master disks, or worse. Doubtless If I;d spnt 25 years doing software it would be the other way round. > > I am looking for a serial interface for my newly-acquire Amstrad PCW > to turn it into a terminal for my VAXstation, and possibly even my > Linux box. The thought of making up the cables and troubleshooting the > connection fills me with dread. Until quite recently you could get various cofiguration/troubleshooting aids. The simple DB25 plug-to-socket adapter with LEDs monitoring the important lines is very useful. A breakout box (which lets you reconnect any of the wirtes using switches and patch leads is useful too. A full datacomms tester (Tektronix and HP made some nice ones) is OTT for most peole but... Alas this stuff is getting hard to find now. Much of it can be made, but if you're not happy wiring up a cable, I doubt you'd want to make a breakoput box from scratch. > > /For me/ - and, it must be said, in the mainstream home/office > computer world in which I work - serial is a fading memory now. I hate to point out the obvious, but this is classiccmp, not the 'mainstream homw/office computer world'... > Parallel ports too. I don't think I've seen a new parallel device in a > decade, either; a last few legacy devices are hanging around but > they're mostly being pensioned off now. > > Mind you, saying that, at the UK VCF I saw BBC Micros being equipped > with USB ports. Apparently it is entirely doable on '80s 8-bit kit, > and a lot more use, as well as easier to use, than serial is, these > days. For what USB devices? There are things like the Vinculum chips which let you add USB memory sticks as storage to just about any system. While (IIRC) you can use them to talk to other USB peripherals too, you'd have to write the necessary drivers. And the BBC micro is very short of memory for something like this. Nto to mention the fact that many of the manufacturers of the more specialised USB peripherals [1] have their own custom drivers for Windows and don't release the specs to let you write drivers for other OSes or machines. [1] Which are the oens I'd be more interested in. I am quite happy to use a classic printer with my Beeb (or transfer the data to a PC for printing), I would not want to use a USB printer on that machine. But I might well want to use a USB-hosted data acquisition unit, since no classic altenative exists. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jul 20 15:06:52 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2010 21:06:52 +0100 (BST) Subject: Serial interfaces In-Reply-To: from "Liam Proven" at Jul 20, 10 05:16:33 pm Message-ID: > All fair points, but then, who ever used serial ports to connect mass > storage? (I know there was a serial port hard disk for the first ever This is classicmp... Assuming by 'serial port' you mean somethign RS232-like (as opposed to USB, firewire (which are serial interfaces), HPIL, etc) then off th rtop of my head, Epson did (the RS232-interfacd drive units for the HX20/PX series of laptops). Resarch Machines did (disk unit for the 480Z, although that was a synchonous RS232 interface). Tandy/Radio Shcack (portable disk drive for the M100 etc). DEC did (TU58 tape cartridge drive). There must be many others. > Mac, but that was from complete lack of any alternative.) > > The equivalents to USB for this sort of thing were SCSI, Firewire, > eSATA and the like - or, arguably, ST-506, ESDI and PATA/ATAPI. > Frankly, USB has caused me less trouble than any of them, considering > the relative volumes. No ID setting, no jumpers, no termination, > generic cables and it even works pretty smoothly across hubs, even > multiple ones. It's a wonder. I am having problems following this. It appears you're saying that USB is superior to RS232 for all applications because USB is easier to use than, say, SCSI for linking up mass sotroage devices (but RS232 was not commonly used for this). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jul 20 14:33:33 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2010 20:33:33 +0100 (BST) Subject: Any former Psion 5 owners out there? In-Reply-To: from "Liam Proven" at Jul 20, 10 02:30:36 am Message-ID: > I am very happy to say that I have not used a serial port for anything > in a good 2-3y now, and not for anything more than a very occasional Whereas I use that interface just about every day for something. > sync of my Psion 7book (and one old PC - Freecycled away a couple of > years ago - with a serial mouse) since the turn of the century. There > were only a small number of times in the late 1990s. > > I really hate RS232. It is the most troublesome interface of any kind > on any computer I've ever used. I celebrate its disappearance with joy I am the exact opposite. I hate USB wit a vengance... The problems start with the name, 'Univeral Serial Bus'. It's not 'universal', in that of the 200 or so computers I own, not one of them has a USB interface or can have a USB interface. It is serial. It's not a bus. HPIB is a bus, but USB isn't. A bus does not need 'hubs'. One out of three right is, alas, what I would expect from modern PC companies though And then there are the technical aspects that I dislike. It's overcomplicated for a lot of tasks. You can implement an asynchronous serial interface like an RS232 port in a handful of simple logic chips. Heck, you can do it electromechanically if you have to (ASR33 anyone). USB takes at least a microcontroller at each end. Which is often more than I want to deal with. But the main problem is that the USB interface is totally non-symmetric. OK, RS232 is no-symmetric in that there are DTEs and DCEs, but a null-mdoem cable will often sort that out., There is nothing simialr for USB. To give an example, I can link my HP95 palmtop (RS232 interface) to an RS232 printer or plotter. But I couldn't link a modern USB palmtop to a USB printer without a PC in between. Or I can link my HP48 calculator to my HP95LX (and since both run kermit, can trivially transfer data between them),. but I couldn't connect an HP50G with a USB interface to a mdern PDA. I strikes me that USB works fine if you want to do what hte manufacturer intends you yto do and don't want to think about it. The problem is that almost all the time I want to do things that hte manufacturers of the devices have never thought of. And I do want to think about it. I'll stick to RS232 ports. > and I hope never to have to use such a port again. All the crap with > baud rates, stop bits, parity bits, flow control and all that hateful > 1960s-ish nonsense is just a fading memory now and I hope I never have > to refresh it. It's odd that I rarely have problems with this. > > Apple did serial ports right on the Mac. You plugged things in, they Actually the Mac serial ports are a right pain. Not only because of the stupid conenctor (which is a pain in the rear to wire), but also because Apple didn't adhere to any standard. It's not-quite RS422 on the data lines with RS423 flow control lines. ARGH!!!!!!! > /De gustibus non est disputandam./ However, I would point out that, > quite aside from my personal life, in my career as a field engineer It woreis me -- a lot -- that a 'field engineer' would have problems with the simple concepts of an RS232 interface. > and general IT bod, my Psions were great helps to me. They held my > appointment books, my client contact details, and numerous databases > of reference info, from RSR232 (F/X: *spit*) pinouts and PC I/O port > and IRQ assignments, standard definitions, command references and all > sorts. That, surely, would be of use to you? Possibly. But a paper notrbook does just as well. And doesn't need batteries. This sort of information doesn't chnage, so having it on paper is not great problem. > > > > Hmmm. I found (and this is not atypical from discussions with others) > > that it takes a couple of hours at most to learn to use an RPN > > calcualtor, but after that you never want to go back. It's simply so much > > more convnient and easy to use. You don;'t ahve to worry aobut the order > > of operations -- the operatios are performed in the order you type them. > > So remembering whether -2^4 is (-2)^4 or -(2^4) is not a problem any more= > . > > I very rarely use a calculator at all any more - usually just for Again a mater of taste. I use my HPs all the time for all sorts of things. I wouldn't want to be without the 16C on my bench... > totting up bills and things. I am perfectly happy with conventional > arithmetic, never find it a limitation or hazard, and generally > dislike having to adapt my habits to the patterns of logic of > machines. The purpose of computers is as an aid to my mind; they, I > feel, should come to me, not me to them. Thus I never learned, nor Sure. Thing is, I think in RPN (as do a lot of people without realising it). RPN is natural if you don't want to have to plan out the whole calculation before you start -- 'So we've gpt a 10k and a 15k resisotr in paralell (10000 1/X 15000 1/X + 1/X) and then we have a 22k in parallel with a 4k7 (22000 1/X 4700 1/X + 1/X), those networks are in series (+)' and so on... I would never want to go back. > even tried to, any assembly language or machine code; I bought faster > computers and continued to use BASIC. I dislike C, Perl and so on. I > seldom used to use hex, preferring decimal and binary. I routinely work in hex and octal (and binary), have no problems handling any of them in my head. Deciaml is a pain in the rear. And while I use BASIC, it's certainly not my favourite language... > > There is of course an art to finding the right balance, but I tend to > favour ease over efficiency, simplicity over complexity and so on. I feel it's a big mistake to confuse 'easy to kearn' with 'easy to use'. Something may be easy to learn, but if it doesn't help you solve complex peoblems (that you need to solve), it's no real use. It's better to spend an afternoon learning to use a more powerful system whciuh actually will help you with your problems. RPN ius like that. Anyone can press the keys on a calculator in the same order as the equation is written in the textbook. They might get the right answer, they might not (if the precendence rules are differnet). But RPN is certain. Same applies to physical tools too. I feel it's better to learn to solder and do you electronic constuction and modifications in a reliable way than stick with those plugblock breadboards. -tony From shumaker at att.net Tue Jul 20 15:36:52 2010 From: shumaker at att.net (steve shumaker) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2010 16:36:52 -0400 Subject: Thinning The Herd In-Reply-To: <4C45DC30.6090004@ladylinux.com> References: <4C45DC30.6090004@ladylinux.com> Message-ID: <4C4608E4.90005@att.net> Can you be a bit more specific re location... for those of us who might enjoy a drive, tx steve On 7/20/2010 1:26 PM, Fran Smith wrote: > Hi Guys, > > I am mostly a Lurker here and very much enjoy and will continue to > enjoy reading the posts here. However I am feeling a need to thin down > my collection some that I have been accumulating over the last 10 > years. I am looking for people to show up here with some cash and a > truck and to haul away some of my prized possession's. I don't have > any blinking light DEC machines anymore or anything ultra rare like a > Lisa but I do have a large assortment of PDP 11/23 and other QBus > equipment. As well as a decent sized collection of regular PDP 11 > Unibus and mass buss boards. I also have many different types of > workstations such as Dec Professionals , Rainbows and 3100 and 4000 > series gear. Also a virtual pile of peripherals. Also some smaller > stuff like KayPro , Osborne etc. Also much software as well and a > couple nice televideo terminals. Now I did pay good cash money for all > of this and its all been stored in a climate controlled clean area. So > anyone who wants a instant collection or just wants to come by and > kick the tires and do some dealing please e-mail me at fsmith at > ladylinux dot com. > > Please try and keep communications off list as this is not really > applicable I feel. > > Thanks!! > > Fran (Mid Alantic USA) > From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Jul 20 15:46:02 2010 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2010 13:46:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: MacPaint and QuickDraw source code released In-Reply-To: <4C45FFB1.90801@arachelian.com> References: <4C45FFB1.90801@arachelian.com> Message-ID: I can't seem to access the link. Is there any limitation on the source? I'd love to see ClarisDraw (aka MacDraw) released as OpenSource and someone port it to Mac OS X. It is the one classic App I haven't been able to replace. When I upgrade I'll have to get it running under emulation. Zane On Tue, 20 Jul 2010, Ray Arachelian wrote: > Found the link below this morning, mostly assembly with some Pascal as > to be expected. Hopefully more will show up. > Looks like there's a nice history there as well. > > http://www.computerhistory.org/highlights/macpaint/ > > From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Jul 20 15:59:33 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2010 16:59:33 -0400 Subject: MacPaint and QuickDraw source code released In-Reply-To: References: <4C45FFB1.90801@arachelian.com> Message-ID: On 7/20/10, Zane H. Healy wrote: > I can't seem to access the link. It took a long moment to load - perhaps they got Slashdotted? (yes there's a link, the question is if the traffic is still high because of it) I did see something at the top of Paintasm.a that I'm hoping comes with the right development environment: .INCLUDE MAC:GRAFTYPES.TEXT .INCLUDE MAC:SYSEQU.TEXT .INCLUDE MAC:SYSMACS.TEXT .INCLUDE MAC:TOOLEQU.TEXT .INCLUDE MAC:GRAFEQU.TEXT .INCLUDE MAC:TOOLMACS.TEXT Are there any old-time Mac developers on the list who might remember what tools/files are needed to turn this code back into a working binary? I read the Hernia Manuals 26 years ago, but I never really did much development. Back when it was new, we were evaluating adding the Mac to our stable of supported machines (Apple II, BBC Acorn, C-64) at the place where I used to write kids games (Software Productions) when the bottom dropped out of our market and we folded. > Is there any limitation on the source? COPYRIGHT.TXT: Copyright This Material is Copyright ? 1984 Apple Inc. and is made available only for non-commercial use. > I'd love to see ClarisDraw (aka MacDraw) released as OpenSource and someone > port it to Mac OS X. It is the one classic App I haven't been able to > replace. That would be awesome to have in the modern world. -ethan From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jul 20 16:11:33 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2010 14:11:33 -0700 Subject: Valves/Tubes was: ez80 In-Reply-To: References: <4C446926.29169.1992B50@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Jul 19, 10 03:03:02 pm, Message-ID: <4C45AE95.18634.16E74AE@cclist.sydex.com> On 20 Jul 2010 at 20:03, Tony Duell wrote: > Sorry, I wasn;t clear. I didn't mean that the metal envelope version > had a diferent number to the G and GT versions (not even the US valve > numbers would be that stupid!). What I meant was that the octal based > valve had a final digit that was one greater than a similar valve on a > differnt base. That's true, but only in those cases where the shell (or any other element) is brought out to a base pin. The 1934 standard says that an element has to be "useful" and have a connection to be counted. So, a 6L6 has heater, cathode, control grid, screen grid, plate and shell all connected to base pins. The beam-forming electrodes aren't counted, so, for instance, the 6F5 triode has exactly one fewer "useful" electrode, even though it has two fewer elements. The other requirement is that the tube must have been introduced initially in the metal shell form (I can't think of any that were glass, then metal, but there may be some.) An "S" as the first part of a middle two-letter pair signifies a single-ended tube, which was not universally followed. Rectifiers *usually* have a high-middle letter (e.g. 5U4, 5Z3), but sadly, there are many exceptions. The most reliable part of the number is the suffix. e.g. G = glass, GT = short glass, GA = improved glass version, GY = micanol base, etc. In 1942, the RMA introduced a scheme for special-purpose and transmitting tubes, that was called the "1A21" system. The first number represents the power rating, the second, the tube type (e.g. diode, triode, etc.), the second and third numbers are assigned in the order of introduction, starting with 21. So the gas thyratron 2D21 tells us nothing more than it's a tetrode rated for 10 watts or less. That standard lasted only until 1944. --Chuck From chrise at pobox.com Tue Jul 20 10:13:11 2010 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2010 10:13:11 -0500 Subject: Serial interfaces (was Re: Any former Psion 5 owners out there?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20100720151311.GC17959@n0jcf.net> On Tuesday (07/20/2010 at 10:15AM -0400), Ethan Dicks wrote: > > P.S. - I know USB is "consumer-friendly" and I know I fall far, far > outside the definition of a "consumer", but that doesn't change the > fact that ubiquitous RS-232 ports make my life easier and USB comes > with a bag of hassles. But-- USB has some killer applications like fans, fish tanks and personal vibrators. http://www.slksuperstore.com/product_info.php?language=en¤cy=USD&products_id=4418 http://www.sourcingmap.com/smart-blue-mini-usb-desktop-tank-comfish-aquarium-p-20299.html?utm_source=google&utm_medium=froogle&utm_campaign=usfroogle http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CCAQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2FDoc-Johnson-Massage-Ball-Vibrator%2Fdp%2FB001IV5J60&ei=mLxFTOr4F8eRnweA_cniAw&usg=AFQjCNGBzh0gYl0w8u1VxS9ON1NkY753AQ&sig2=YSfXMI8YVHqtayA9hHWcGA -- Chris Elmquist From LWhetton at usbr.gov Tue Jul 20 13:03:50 2010 From: LWhetton at usbr.gov (Whetton, Linda A) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2010 12:03:50 -0600 Subject: Northgate OmniKey Ultra Message-ID: Is the keyboard still available for purchase? Please advise. Thank you. Linda Whetton Environmental Resources Division 125 S. State Street, Room 6107 Salt Lake City UT 84138-1147 Tel: 801-524-3880 Fax: 801-524-3858 EM: lwhetton at usbr.gov From jws at jwsss.com Tue Jul 20 13:41:35 2010 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2010 11:41:35 -0700 Subject: Amlyn Minipac diskette changer In-Reply-To: References: , <4C41649B.7546.4A61F@cclist.sydex.com>, <4C41DDC2.21327.1DDE4E1@cclist.sydex.com> <4C44B878.5010407@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <4C45EDDF.2000700@jwsss.com> > I recall speaking with "John" at Vista about driver issues on my Apple > IIe. Is that who you're referring to, perhaps? > > It is really aggravating when folks "purge" this type of information. > For the love-of-Mike, how much trouble is it to run off a tape or burn > it to a DVD? The same thing happened to most of Applied Engineering's > technical docs when they went Chapter 11. Everything went into the > dumpster. > > Steve > > John sounds like the guy I'm thinking of. I have personally been around during some of these times, and that explains my containers and boxes full of stuff. Vista's assets were sold, not discarded, according to Tom, I asked. This was a real "wayback" question for him, but he was sure the documents and engineering stuff was sold. They bought the Kaypro assets for instance and that was all sold including documentation, both at ACP and at some auctions, so I am pretty sure he is right that someone would have purchased whatever stuff the Vista engineering group had. Also, since this "John" I'm speaking of was a contractor, he probably had the real scoop on the documents. I was more into their PC to SASI / SCSI combo board and talked him out of documentation and drawings of that board, but not the other vista stuff. Jim From bqt at softjar.se Tue Jul 20 14:40:18 2010 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2010 21:40:18 +0200 Subject: RTEM-11 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C45FBA2.8050501@softjar.se> "Jerome H. Fine" wrote: > >Johnny Billquist wrote: > >>> > >"Jerome H. Fine" wrote: >> > >>> >> I would not assume anything until I actually had tested the presence >>> >> or absence of a >>> >> specific "feature". >> > >> > What have any features have to do with this? >> > I'm telling you that RTEM-11 will not, and never have been capable of >> > running on a VAX. >> > If there was a RTEM product for the VAX, it would have to be a >> > separate product, with a separate code base from RTEM-11, since you >> > cannot write a RT-11 emulator of any kind in PDP-11 mode on a VAX. It >> > will have to be VAX code. And thus, it can not be the same product as >> > a RT-11 emulator program written to run under RSX. > > I agree that it is obvious that the RTS code will be written in the native > instruction set of the system under which the RTS is running. That means > that the RTS system under RSTS/E executes PDP-11 instructions and > uses RSTS/E EMT requests. As you state, under VMS and a VAX, > VAX instructions are used. And if I may push the envelope a bit, under > SIMH, x86 instructions are used if we agree to call SIMH or E11 a RTS > of a different kind, although the more descriptive name is emulator. No. Now you are mixing and confusing things again. First of all, let's make clear that RTS is a RSTS/E specific concept. Don't use it outside discussions of RSTS/E. As RTS is a RSTS/E specific thing, any code written to implement an RTS is *always* written in PDP-11 machine code. You could possibly write it in some supported high level language under RSTS/E, but I don't think any actually is supported for doing this. The one possibility I can think of would be PDP-11 C for RSTS/E, which might allow you to do something like this. Otherwise, an RTS must be written in MACRO-11. The RTS does not do anything until a trap happens. Be that from an EMT, an illegal memory reference, or whatever. At that point, the RTS is called at a specific address, and the RTS can then do whatever it feels like, and either abort the running program, or else let it continue. The PDP-11 compatibility mode on some VAXen allows the PDP-11 instructions to be executed without any other layer involved. They are executed by the microcode of the CPU. But not all instructions are implemented. If an unimplemented instruction is executed, the CPU traps back to VAX mode, and to a trap handler. Something like simh is like the microcode of the CPU. However, the microcode in this case looks just like x86 assembler. This is nothing at all like what an RTS under RSTS/E is doing. The microcode executes all instructions that have been implemented, and if an unimplemented instruction occurs, some kind of trap happens. On a VAX, this will be a trap back to VAX mode, and a trap handler. Under simh, it will be handled just like on any other PDP-11. Ie. you'll get a trap in PDP-11 mode, to the trap address for illegal instructions. (Check out the processor handbook for a PDP-11 if you want more details on this.) Now, it should be pretty obvious that this is not the same thing as what un RTS do. An RTS depends on the PDP-11 specific behaviour when a trap occurs. A VAX does not follow that behaviour. A PDP-11 emulator like simh do. So, you can run RSTS/E on simh, but you cannot run RSTS/E on a VAX. Furthermore, you can have an RTS under RSTS/E which emulates the RT-11 system calls. You cannot even run that RTS on VMS. > My reference to a specific "feature" is with respect to the actual > details of > the RTS in question. For RSTS/E, the RTS to handle RT-11 EMT requests > does not support even all of the RT-11 EMT requests which the RT11SJ > monitor in RT-11 supports. For example, the .CStatus request is ignored > and the .SaveStatus request return the "dev:filnam.typ" and [PPN] for the > file in question rather than the five Channel Status words used in an RT-11 > environment. So there are significant differences between the RT-11 RTS > under RSTS/E and an actual RT11SJ monitor running under a PDP-11 > instruction set (specified so as to include both a DEC CPU and an emulator > such as SIMH). Yes. And RTEM-11 will also behave slightly differently that vanilla RT-11 for some of those calls. And assuming there is a product called RTEM, which runs under VMS, it too will behave differently than RT-11. However, RTEM-11 and this RTEM will not necessarily behave the same way, since RTEM-11 and RTEM are different products, and different implementations, written by different people (assumingly) at different times. >>>>>>> >>>> >> I don''t know if Megan Gentry is still around or perhaps Allison >>>>> >>>> or >> one of the >>>>>>> >>>> >> other DEC fellows. Perhaps they might at least know something >>>>> >>>> about >> which >>>>>>> >>>> >> hardware and operating system(s) supported RTEM? >>>> >>> >>>>> >>> > I definitely remember (and probably still have some mail >>>> >>> somewhere) > from Megan mentioning that she used RTEM-11 for RT-11 >>>> >>> work, running on > RSX machines. Possibly even an 11/74. >>> >> >>> >> I don't have enough information about RSX to know if RTEM-11 was >>> >> supported. >>> >> However, ... >> > >> > I'm telling you that it is. Just google for it, and you will find the >> > documentation from DEC that is still on the net about this product. >> > It's actually really simple. Go to "www.google.com". Type in "rtem-11 >> > rsx" in the search field, and hit enter. >> > The first hit will be >> > http://www.google.se/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CBcQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bitsavers.org%2Fpdf%2Fdec%2Fpdp11%2Frsx11%2FRSX11M_V4.1_Apr83%2F1_Introduction%2FAA-M778J-TC_optSwXref_Jun83.pdf&ei=kNpETPb-BtqIOKXjtTc&usg=AFQjCNFv-lCjH9ifJeDiJ9sf_daeyGX9-A, >> > which is "RSX-11M Optional Software Cross Reference Table", which >> > lists what version of various software is compatible with RSX-11M V4.0 >> > and V4.1. Among these, you'll find RTEM-11 V1.0 and V1.1. More >> > "supported" than that is hard to get. > > Thank you for the reference. Although this does make my goal of having > the code > support running the program under the RTEM-11 RTS even more difficult. RTEM-11 is not an RTS. RTEM-11 is a product that ran (runs) under RSX. If I were to make a qualified guess, I'd suspect that RTEM-11 is a program that you start just like any other program under RSX. That program then looks like an RT-11 environment, so you can run RT-11 programs inside that. RTEM-11 will catch EMTs and other traps, and do something appropriate to those traps. It's not difficult to catch traps in an RSX program. Exactly what it does, and how, is another issue. And that is something you are asking about, and which I cannot answer, and it seems noone else can either, since noone around here have RTEM-11, or have used it. As I said, I think Megan mentioned that she had used it, but she's the only one I know of who have admitted to any knowledge about this product. > On the > other hand, I doubt that anyone will be likely to even test the RTEM-11 > handling > portion of the code, so I am probably going to just assume that what > works for the > RT-11 RTS system under RSTS/E will also suffice for the RTEM-11 RTS under > RSX-11. Not an RTS, but anyway, you are most probably very correct in the assumption that noone will test you code under RTEM-11. >>>>>>> >>>> >> In addition, RSTS/E also supported RT-11 programs via the >>>>> >>>> SWITCH RT11 >>>>>>> >>>> >> capability. However, only the RT-11 EMTs which are used by a SJ >>>>> >>>> are >> supported >>>>>>> >>>> >> by RSTS/E. At least there is quite reasonable documentation as >>>>> >>>> well >> as the ability >>>>>>> >>>> >> to test and actually run RT-11 programs under RSTS/E up to the >>>>> >>>> latest >> versions >>>>>>> >>>> >> of RSTS/E. RT-11 EMTs for mapped RT-11 monitors (RT11XM) are >>>>> >>>> not >> supported >>>>>>> >>>> >> not are multi-terminal EMTs. Also, probably the latest RT-11 >>>>> >>>> EMTs >> for file status >>>>>>> >>>> >> information are also not supported under RSTS/E. >>>> >>> >>>>> >>> > The correct technical term is that RSTS/E have a RT-11 *run time > >>>> >>> system*. An RTS in RSTS/E provides an environment under which you >>>> >>> can > get a specific behaviour. So you had RTSes for RT-11, RSX, >>>> >>> BASIC+, > TECO, DCL and some other stuff. Some RTSes were also KBMs >>>> >>> (keyboard > monitors), meaning you could "switch" to them, and get >>>> >>> an interactive > command line interpreter with that. But the RTS >>>> >>> mostly implemented > system calls. However, there were RTSes which >>>> >>> didn't implement any > system calls, and only gave you the basic >>>> >>> calls RSTS/E itself > provided, and mostly focused on being a KBM, >>>> >>> such as DCL. >>> >> >>> >> I apologize for my lack of familiarity with the terminology. Your >>> >> description >>> >> is what I was attempting to say. >> > >> > :-) >> > >>> >> Actually, my testing seems to show that RSTS/E supports being able to >>> >> run RT-11 programs even if the RT-11 RTS is not activated. For example: >>> >> RUN MACRO >>> >> is possible if the RTS is normal RSTS/E or RT-11. This might be >>> >> based on the >>> >> file type. RSTS/E may determine that MACRO.SAV is an RT-11 program and >>> >> support the RT-11 EMT requests. Or RSTS/E may support naked RT-11 EMT >>> >> requests from any program. That is something I should test. >> > >> > No, you are confusing things, and making wild guesses. >> > What do you mean by "activated"? There is no activation. If an RTS is >> > installed, it will always be used for programs that are marked as >> > requiring that RTS. This is an "attribute" of a file. Whenever that >> > file is run, it is run under the indicated RTS. If you try to run a >> > program that requires an RTS that don't exist I would suspect that >> > you'll get an error. > > That is what I had assumed, however, I am curious how RSTS/E decides > which RTS to use - or none at all as the case might be. Are you not reading what I am writing? This is an attribute of the file. You *tell* which RTS a program should run under. Normally you do not need to do this explicitly, since every file always have an RTS associated with it, and it's normally already correct, so no need to change it. When a file is created, it is created by a program. That program is running under an RTS. And so, the new file will by default also be associated with that RTS. So when you run LINK.SAV to create a new runnable file, LINK.SAV will create your file, and since LINK.SAV runs under the RT11 RTS, your new program created by LINK.SAV will also be marked as associated with the RT11 RTS. Now, this is obviously correct, so you do not need to think about it. If you instead run TKB.TSK, that program runs under the RSX RTS. And TKB.TSK will create a new runnable task for you. A pretty good and obvious guess is that that program is a RSX task, and as such, you want it to run under the RSX RTS. And since TKB is an RSX task, it runs under the RSX RTS, and files created by TKB will thus also be associated with the RSX RTS. Once again, right without you having to think about it. Would you ever want to force a program to run under another RTS (probably a bad idea, but anyway...) you can change this with the PIP program. Now, I hope I've made it clear enough this time. >> > Also, if you type "RUN MACRO", how do you know that you are even >> > running the RT-11 version? RSTS/E normally also have an RSX RTS >> > available, and an MACRO.TSK, which is MACRO-11 running under the RSX RTS. > > When MACRO.SAV is run (under the RSTS/E RTS or any other RTS or under > any other operating system including RT-11 and TSX-Plus, it is simple to > just > type at the "*" prompt to obtain the version number and so identify > which program is being run. RSTS/E is *not* an RTS. RSTS/E is the operating system. RT-11 the operating system is never an RTS. There is an RT11 RTS under RSTS/E, but that is only relevant when you are running RSTS/E as the operating system. If you type just "RUN MACRO", how do you even know it's invoking MACRO.SAV? There is also a MACRO.TSK normally under RSTS/E, since you might also want to compile things in RSX flavour. Both are MACRO-11, based on the same code base, and actually even generating the same object files. However, the system calls they make are specific to the OS they are built for, so they are not the same binaries. MACRO.SAV *always* runs under the RT11 RTS. If you were to try and run MACRO.SAV under any other RTS, you would crash and burn hard and fast. Note that what KBM you have switched to have nothing to do with this. You can switch to basic, DCL, or RSX for all that you want. If you then run MACRO.SAV, it will still run under the RT11 RTS. It *must*, or it won't work. >>>>> >>> > All exeutable files have an RTS associated with it, and when the > >>>> >>> program is run, it is run under that RTS, which then handles all >>>> >>> EMTs > and so on when the program executes them. >>> >> >>> >> Does the file type trigger the use of that RTS? >> > >> > Unless my memory have totally rotted away, the answer is no. The RTS >> > associated with a file is an attribute of the file, just like file >> > protection. There is a switch to PIP that you can use to check, and >> > set, the RTS. >> > That said, all RTS have a default file extension as well, and I think >> > that is used to search for runnable files if you just type "RUN MACRO" >> > for example. > > That answer helps quite a bit. Thank you! So, if you have access to a RSTS/E system, now type "HELP PIP", and find out how you see and set the RTS for a program. >>> >> I do have a question. With V7 of RSTS/E, the FIT program is able to >>> >> copy files from a drive with an RT-11 file structure (such as an RX02) >>> >> to the RSTS/E file structure. My initial testing with V10.1 of RSTS/E >>> >> shows that (at the very least the distribution which I am using) does >>> >> not >>> >> have a FIT program. Is there some other method of making a copy of >>> >> a file on an RX02 with an RT-11 file structure to a device with a RSTS/E >>> >> file structure? >> > >> > Either FIT, or some "new" program that does the same thing, I'd guess. >> > I'm no expert on RSTS/E, and my experience is old. I mostly ran RSTS/E >> > between V7.1 and V9.0, with the majority of my time in the V7-V8 >> > timeframe. > > Well, I am having difficulty finding the "new" program under V10.1 of > RSTS/E. > I finally managed to figure out how to MOUNT the RL02 drives I am "using" > (don't forget that all the code is being run under SIMH or E11) under V7 of > RSTS/E when I am running V10.1 of RSTS/E. Since FIT had already copied > to file to the RL02 drives, I could then used PIP to copy the program in > I am > testing to the correct [PPN] on the DU0: drive which is being "used" to run > V10.1 of RSTS/E. A bit inconvenient, but fortunately faster than on a DEC > system. That sentence makes no sense. Either you are running RSTS/E V7, or RSTS/E V10, you cannot run RSTS/E V10 when you are running RSTS/E V7, or vice versa. You'll have to reboot the machine in order to run another version of RSTS/E. >>> >> Also, is it possible to run an RT-11 program under a DEBUG mode? It >>> >> would be much easier to check out the code if that is possible. At the >>> >> moment, I can check most of the code under RT-11. However, the >>> >> portion which runs in a different manner under RSTS/E as opposed to >>> >> RT-11 since RSTS/E does not support all RT-11 EMT requests in the >>> >> same manner as RT-11. >> > >> > What do you mean by "debug" mode??? > > I am not sure if RSX-11 has an SD(X).SYS device driver like RT-11 which > handles the BPT instructions placed in a program running under RT-11 when > the user wants to stop a program in the middle of running and check out the > code. The SD(X).SYS device driver under RT-11 supports the features that > the ODT subroutine handles without the requirement for that subroutine to be > part of the program which is being tested. Under TSX-Plus, there is a > so-called > debug option which invokes the same sort of support. Since the SD(X).SYS > is written as a device driver in RT-11 (starting with around V5.4 of > RT-11 if That is called a debugger, and yes, there are several debuggers for both RSTS/E and RSX. Normally you have to link them into the runnable image in order to be able to access things in the running program though. If the debugger is not linked in to the program, the program will normally abort if it executes a BPT instruction. Since you do mention this concept in your text, you should be familiar with it. ODT is one of the debuggers availabe, and I believe it's the only one shipped with RSTS/E by default. > I remember correctly), debugging a program under RT-11 became much easier > since ODT was no longer inserted into the program being tested. > > I was hoping that RSTS/E has the same sort of feature available, but > that does > not seem to be the case. But then how did users debug their programs under > RSTS/E? With ODT linked in to the program, just as you mentioned that people normally did with RT11 in the past as well. The same type of development cycle is still what people use to this day. You build a special debug version, which you run through the debugger, and when you are happy, you build a new, leaner version, without debug support. I'm not sure how you use that device driver under RT11, nor how useful it actually is... Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Jul 20 16:23:34 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2010 17:23:34 -0400 Subject: Valves/Tubes was: ez80 In-Reply-To: <4C45AE95.18634.16E74AE@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4C446926.29169.1992B50@cclist.sydex.com> <4C45AE95.18634.16E74AE@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > In 1942, the RMA introduced a scheme for special-purpose and > transmitting tubes, that was called the "1A21" system. ?The first > number represents the power rating, the second, the tube type (e.g. > diode, triode, etc.), the second and third numbers are assigned in > the order of introduction, starting with 21. ?So the gas thyratron > 2D21 tells us nothing more than it's a tetrode rated for 10 watts or > less. > > That standard lasted only until 1944. It lived on well past 1944 with diodes and transistors. The 1N4007 is part of the system as is 1N21. -- Will From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jul 20 16:24:54 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2010 14:24:54 -0700 Subject: Serial interfaces (was Re: Any former Psion 5 owners out there?) In-Reply-To: References: from "Ethan Dicks" at Jul 20, 10 10:15:46 am, Message-ID: <4C45B1B6.7871.17AACAC@cclist.sydex.com> I have to confess that when I design a standalone microcontroller project, the interface almost always is RS232. Most uCs have UART functionality with data rates up to at least 250Kbps. I don't have to fool with complicated protocols and the interface is very useful for debugging. MAX232s or their equivalent are cheap and easy to use. RS232 means that I can hook it to just about anything. I've got a pile of USB->RS232 adapters for those crippled systems that can speak only USB of some flavor. --Chuck From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Jul 20 16:36:09 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2010 17:36:09 -0400 Subject: Serial interfaces (was Re: Any former Psion 5 owners out there?) In-Reply-To: <20100720151311.GC17959@n0jcf.net> References: <20100720151311.GC17959@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: On 7/20/10, Chris Elmquist wrote: > On Tuesday (07/20/2010 at 10:15AM -0400), Ethan Dicks wrote: >> >> P.S. - I know USB is "consumer-friendly"... > > But-- USB has some killer applications like fans, fish tanks and > personal vibrators. > > http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CCAQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2FDoc-Johnson-Massage-Ball-Vibrator%2Fdp%2FB001IV5J60&ei=mLxFTOr4F8eRnweA_cniAw&usg=AFQjCNGBzh0gYl0w8u1VxS9ON1NkY753AQ&sig2=YSfXMI8YVHqtayA9hHWcGA I mildly disturbed that Amazon decided to share with me that customers who bought that, also bought the OXO Pastry Scraper. I do think that providing moderate amounts of power along _a_ serial interface is a handy thing. There's a pseudo-standard to do that for embedded devices with real serial ports over pin 9 of an AT-pinned DE-9 (normally RI). I have more than one peripheral where that is either always so, or optionally so (my 1999 Matrix Orbital intelligent serial LCD has a solder pad to optionally short pin 9 to Vcc, but don't do that and use the wrong cable!) If one were to define a new standard connector so that there weren't issues with re-using a pin on a common connector that means something else to different devices (power over pin 9 in particular), between that and some sort of device ident protocol (HEREIS anyone?), at one point in the past it might have been possible to give many of the benefits of USB to an RS-232 serial port (max transfer rate difference would still remain, naturally). OTOH, Commodore tried to change connectors (by swapping the genders compared to an IBM-compatible machine) of the serial and parallel ports on the Amiga 1000, and added in power to peripherals at the same time. It didn't catch on - the A500 and A2000 came with "PC compatible" serial and parallel port pinouts. There have been various peripheral hacks over the years to steal power for devices using one connector for data (serial, parallel) and one for power (AT and PS/2 connectors, ADB, etc) I do think that USB started out right by requiring power on the primary cable, but looking at "powered USB" (with even more cable-end varieties), they clearly weren't forward thinking enough. -ethan From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Jul 20 18:28:17 2010 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2010 18:28:17 -0500 Subject: Serial interfaces In-Reply-To: References: <201007201555.o6KFtahx044463@billY.EZWIND.NET> Message-ID: <201007202328.o6KNSQJH067979@billY.EZWIND.NET> At 11:16 AM 7/20/2010, Liam Proven wrote: >All fair points, but then, who ever used serial ports to connect mass >storage? (I know there was a serial port hard disk for the first ever >Mac, but that was from complete lack of any alternative.) I can think of the Commodore 64- 1541 drive and the external floppy drive for the Tandy Model 100. At 11:21 AM 7/20/2010, Ray Arachelian wrote: >Works beautifully under VMWare Fusion. And when I did have to use >windows, it worked nicely under VMWare server. I was referring to ESXi, the small-to-medium enterprise version. At 12:00 PM 7/20/2010, Ethan Dicks wrote: >Generic cables? The ends are generic, sure, but there's A, B, mini A, >several types of mini B (one dominant, but hardly unique), and then >there's USB 1.1 vs USB 2.0 in terms of cable ratings (but will a USB >1.1-marked cable pushed to 2.0 speeds really be too noisy or is that >just marketing?) I have no less than 5 flavors of USB cables lying >around the house, though two of the 5 are the most common. Plus the variations and quirks in terms of the power requirements for various devices. There's wall transformers with USB connectors that don't supply enough power for some devices, some PC ports that don't supply enough power, some hubs that that don't, some devices that come with dual USB connectors in order to suck more amps, etc. - John From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Tue Jul 20 19:46:41 2010 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2010 20:46:41 -0400 Subject: DEC PDP 11/23 - OK to use 22-bit memory boards in an 18-bit qbus? In-Reply-To: <4C45E8E2.5A169492@atsgate.com> References: <4C45E8E2.5A169492@atsgate.com> Message-ID: <4C464371.7000209@compsys.to> >Scott M wrote: >I recently acquired my first DEC PDP. It is a VT103 (VT100 terminal with >a PDP 11/23 inside). It came with a pair of cartridge disk drives (HEAVY!) >that are RK05 compatible, a DEC RX02 (pair of 8" floppy disk drives), boxes >of manuals, 3 DEC operating systems, software, and an extra VT100. > > Congratulations. My first PDP-11 was also a VT103 with a DSD 880/8 (5 MB RL01 and RX03) and 256 KB of memory. >While the DEC operating systems are OK, I am actually interested in using >the machine to (finally) go through "Lions' Commentary on Unix" (Unix V6), >using software downloaded from http://www.tuhs.org/. (Lions' book here): >http://www.amazon.com/dp/1573980137/ >After I do that, I want to move up to Unix v7, 2.9BSD, and try other Unix >distros available for the PDP. >My concern is that the 18-bit PDP 11/23 does not have enough memory. >It currently has 128KB installed, with a maximum of 256K possible after a >memory board upgrade (M8067, MSV11-PK = 256KB). How far do you estimate I >can get with just 128KB memory? Can I get through Lions' book? > > I run only RT-11, so I can't help with your questions. >I am looking at adding wires to the backplane to make it a 22-bit machine, >and using a quad height qbus memory board, M7551 (available in 1MB, 2MB and >4MB sizes). However, I am not ready to dive in and start modifying the qbus >backplane for 22-bit addressing just yet. So my question is: >Rather than invest in a 256KB memory board designed for the 18-bit qbus, >can I install a 22-bit 1MB, 2MB or 4MB memory board in the 18-bit system, >and just use the first 256KB for now? Also, is the VT103 backplane >compatible with a quad-height memory board? (It only has dual-height >cards installed at the present time). > > I have had my VT103 enhanced to a 22 bit backplane by adding those extra 4 wires. The work was done using wire wrap grade wire and stripping the insulation where the wire had to be soldered to the backplane. The extra 4 address lines on the VT103 backplane are probably unused, at least there were on my VT103 backplane. All of the slots in the backplane are AB / AB which allow them to accept dual boards. However, a quad board can also be used, in particular for the CPU and memory. If any dual slots are missing, then a bus grant (M9047) is required. Since the slots are "serpentine", the order is 1A / 1B / 2B / 2A / 3A / 3B / 4B / 4A. To confirm, I have used a VT103 with a M8190 CPU, 4 MB of memory, DHV11 and an RQD11-EC, all quad boards with the last being an ESDI controller. The disk drives used a separate PC power supply each with their own fan to keep them cool. In general, the VT103 power supply is probably on the low side, so it is probably best to use as few boards as possible. >Parts inventory: >- VT103, with: > - 4x4 qbus backplane, 18-bit. The manual says "two H803s (2x4 connector > blocks, stacked vertically in a 4x4 configuration)". I know there are > possible issues with "straight" vs. "serpentine" slots, but I have not > got that figured out yet on the VT103. > - M8186 KDF11-A CPU (Newer revisions of KDF11-A's are 22-bit capable). >http://world.std.com/~mbg/pdp11-field-guide.txt > says: "(Prior to etch rev. C, 18-bit addressing only. ...)" > I could not find revision information on the M8186 board, but "146 CA" > is stamped into one of the red plastic handles. I can email close-up > photos to anyone who wants to take a look and determine if this is a > rev C or later board capable of 22-bit addressing. > - M8043 Quad Serial board. This doc says it is 22-bit compatible: >http://www.ibiblio.org/pub/academic/computer-science/history/pdp-11/hardware/micronotes/numerical/micronote5.txt > - M8029 (RXV21) floppy disk board (18-bit DMA only). -Will this be a > problem with Unix v6 or 2.9BSD if running with 22-bit addressing? > - M8208 "VT103 Maintenance Module" (Unknown if 22-bit compatible). > - Xylogics C510 (formerly called "Wizard 1") cartridge disk controller > board, with 18-bit addressing, connected to a pair CDC 9427H "Hawk" > disk drives (one disk drive is DOA, but the other is OK). > - 3rd party memory board (128KB), Christlin Industries, Inc. > >So, initially I want to run a 22-bit memory board (M7551) in an 18-bit >VT103 qbus backplane, and access only the first 256KB of memory using >18-bit addressing. Is this possible? Thank you for your help. > I should think it is possible, but I would check with someone who knows. Jerome Fine From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Tue Jul 20 19:47:07 2010 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2010 20:47:07 -0400 Subject: RTEM-11 In-Reply-To: <4C45FBA2.8050501@softjar.se> References: <4C45FBA2.8050501@softjar.se> Message-ID: <4C46438B.3050102@compsys.to> >Johnny Billquist wrote: >> I agree that it is obvious that the RTS code will be written in the >> native >> instruction set of the system under which the RTS is running. That >> means >> that the RTS system under RSTS/E executes PDP-11 instructions and >> uses RSTS/E EMT requests. As you state, under VMS and a VAX, >> VAX instructions are used. And if I may push the envelope a bit, under >> SIMH, x86 instructions are used if we agree to call SIMH or E11 a RTS >> of a different kind, although the more descriptive name is emulator. > > No. Now you are mixing and confusing things again. > First of all, let's make clear that RTS is a RSTS/E specific concept. > Don't use it outside discussions of RSTS/E. You are correct. I was attempting to be too general. >> My reference to a specific "feature" is with respect to the actual >> details of >> the RTS in question. For RSTS/E, the RTS to handle RT-11 EMT requests >> does not support even all of the RT-11 EMT requests which the RT11SJ >> monitor in RT-11 supports. For example, the .CStatus request is ignored >> and the .SaveStatus request return the "dev:filnam.typ" and [PPN] for >> the >> file in question rather than the five Channel Status words used in an >> RT-11 >> environment. So there are significant differences between the RT-11 RTS >> under RSTS/E and an actual RT11SJ monitor running under a PDP-11 >> instruction set (specified so as to include both a DEC CPU and an >> emulator >> such as SIMH). > > Yes. And RTEM-11 will also behave slightly differently that vanilla > RT-11 for some of those calls. And assuming there is a product called > RTEM, which runs under VMS, it too will behave differently than RT-11. > However, RTEM-11 and this RTEM will not necessarily behave the same > way, since RTEM-11 and RTEM are different products, and different > implementations, written by different people (assumingly) at different > times. Agreed! The problem is that I have been unable to locate any documentation for which RT-11 EMT requests are handled by the RTEM-11 RTS along with the differences between RT-11 and the RTEM-11 RTS. The RSTS/E RTS system for RT-11 EMT requests is fairly well documented in the RSTS/E documentation. The only areas which are a bit hazy is when the [PPN] (at offset zero in the Common Area) is not specified (left at zero). If the [PPN] is included, then it is used correctly along with the file name that is specified. But for RTEM-11, I don't have any documentation at all. > RTEM-11 is not an RTS. RTEM-11 is a product that ran (runs) under RSX. > If I were to make a qualified guess, I'd suspect that RTEM-11 is a > program that you start just like any other program under RSX. That > program then looks like an RT-11 environment, so you can run RT-11 > programs inside that. > RTEM-11 will catch EMTs and other traps, and do something appropriate > to those traps. It's not difficult to catch traps in an RSX program. > Exactly what it does, and how, is another issue. And that is something > you are asking about, and which I cannot answer, and it seems noone > else can either, since noone around here have RTEM-11, or have used > it. As I said, I think Megan mentioned that she had used it, but she's > the only one I know of who have admitted to any knowledge about this > product. I suspect that Megan is no longer available for help. >> On the >> other hand, I doubt that anyone will be likely to even test the >> RTEM-11 handling >> portion of the code, so I am probably going to just assume that what >> works for the >> RT-11 RTS system under RSTS/E will also suffice for the RTEM-11 RTS >> under >> RSX-11. > > Not an RTS, but anyway, you are most probably very correct in the > assumption that no one will test you code under RTEM-11. That should make the situation fairly simple. I will ask anyone who actually does run under RTEM-11 to contact me if it does not work. Since I will be 72 years old in a few days, and I doubt that the code will be finished very soon, they won't have many years to check in. >> That is what I had assumed, however, I am curious how RSTS/E decides >> which RTS to use - or none at all as the case might be. > > Are you not reading what I am writing? > This is an attribute of the file. You *tell* which RTS a program > should run under. Normally you do not need to do this explicitly, > since every file always have an RTS associated with it, and it's > normally already correct, so no need to change it. I have access to both V7 and V10.1 or RSTS/E. However, I have not found the program in V10.1 which copies files from RT-11 files structures to RSTS/E file structures. Under V7, RSTS/E has a program named FIT which I use to copy a program from an RX02 device to an RL02 device. Based on your description, FIT must attach the RT-11 attribute to the file during the copy. It would be appreciated if you could confirm that I finally have it correct. >> Well, I am having difficulty finding the "new" program under V10.1 of >> RSTS/E. >> I finally managed to figure out how to MOUNT the RL02 drives I am >> "using" >> (don't forget that all the code is being run under SIMH or E11) under >> V7 of >> RSTS/E when I am running V10.1 of RSTS/E. Since FIT had already copied >> to file to the RL02 drives, I could then used PIP to copy the program >> in I am >> testing to the correct [PPN] on the DU0: drive which is being "used" >> to run >> V10.1 of RSTS/E. A bit inconvenient, but fortunately faster than on >> a DEC >> system. > > That sentence makes no sense. Either you are running RSTS/E V7, or > RSTS/E V10, you cannot run RSTS/E V10 when you are running RSTS/E V7, > or vice versa. You'll have to reboot the machine in order to run > another version of RSTS/E. AGREED!! When I tested the program under V10.1 of RSTS/E, the only way I managed to copy the program after booting V10.1 of RSTS/E on the DU0: device was to MOUNTed the RL02 device which had the program I wanted to test. The RL02 device had previously been booted to V7 of RSTS/E and FIT had been used to copy the program from the RX02 device to the RL02 device. So YES, two boots were required, the first to copy the program from the RX02 device (with an RT-11 file structure) to the RL02 with a RSTS/E file structure using FIT under V7 of RSTS/E. Then I SHUTUP V7 of RSTS/E, booted the DU0: device which has V10.1 of RSTS/E, MOUNTed the RL02 and copied the program from the RL02 to the DU0: device. Since this will not be done except for testing, it is acceptable. > With ODT linked in to the program, just as you mentioned that people > normally did with RT11 in the past as well. > > The same type of development cycle is still what people use to this > day. You build a special debug version, which you run through the > debugger, and when you are happy, you build a new, leaner version, > without debug support. I agree that this was also done in the past with RT-11. > I'm not sure how you use that device driver under RT11, nor how useful > it actually is... However, by V05.04 of RT-11, DEC developed the SD(X).SYS device driver which allowed a program to have a BPT instruction without the requirement to include ODT as part of the code. If the user LOADed SDX.SYS prior to executing the program with the BPT, but without ODT included, the code in SDX.SYS initialized the required VECTOR to trap the BPT instruction when SDX.SYS was LOADed. The code in SDX.SYS then performed all of the functions that ODT supported (and a few others as well) without adding any extra code to the program being tested. It is even possible to place a BPT in the monitor code and test those instructions as well. Based on some of the comments in the SDX.SYS source file, it looks like it is also available under both RSTS/E and RSX-11. However, since I have almost no knowledge of RSTS/E and even less of RSX-11, I can't even begin to speculate why those comments are in the source file. Jerome Fine From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Tue Jul 20 20:06:34 2010 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2010 21:06:34 -0400 Subject: DEC PDP 11/23 - OK to use 22-bit memory boards in an 18-bit qbus? In-Reply-To: <4C45F0F6.6060700@dunnington.plus.com> References: <4C45E8E2.5A169492@atsgate.com> <4C45F0F6.6060700@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <4C46481A.50506@compsys.to> >Pete Turnbull wrote: > I'm not sure either of those actually have drivers for an RXV21. That > card will work OK in a 22-bit system without clashing with any memory > addresses, but is only useful if the driver (exists and) understands > to put the DMA buffers in the lowest 256KB. Some OS versions do > exactly that: they tell the card to transfer data to/from low memory > and then the CPU moves it if necessary (later version of RT-11 do > that, for example). The DEC version of the DY.SYS device driver for an unmapped monitor only knows about the first 64 KB of memory, as does the RT-11 monitor. Thus only 16 bit addresses are used for the RT11FB monitor and the DY.SYS device driver. For the DYX.SYS device driver running under the RT11XM monitor, the DMA on the card can handle ONLY buffers within an 18 bit address or the first 256 KB of memory. Thus far, you are entirely correct for the DEC versions of the DY(X).SYS device driver. HOWEVER, I know for certain that there is no bounce buffer capability (which is what you have described in your answer that the CPU moves the data if necessary) in the DEC distribution for the DYX.SYS device driver which runs under a mapped version of RT-11. The reason that I know is that I enhanced DYX.SYS to use a bounce buffer, as well as being able to handle double sided double density 8" floppy media which are supported on DSD 880/30 drives. The controller on these drives is also limited to using ONLY 18 bit addresses for the memory, hence the requirement for a bounce buffer. The first attempt ran well on a PDP-11/73, but slowed to a crawl on a PDP-11/23 since the code attempted to bounce the buffer before the I/O for the next sector was initiated. While the code became a bit more complicated to initiate the I/O for the next sector and then bounce the buffer, that allowed a PDP-11/23 to keep up the normal speed of the floppy. Jerome Fine From legalize at xmission.com Tue Jul 20 20:36:00 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2010 19:36:00 -0600 Subject: Wang 1200 Message-ID: I may be able to get my hands on one, but I'm not sure if its complete. Is this just the main CPU unit? Anyone out there have a complete one for comparison? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Tue Jul 20 20:47:06 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2010 19:47:06 -0600 Subject: recovering cartridge tapes (was: Tek fiches found! In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 20 Jul 2010 08:39:27 -0400. Message-ID: Thanks for the link, Tim. Still the question remains: how best to read cartridge tapes with faulty belts and sticky drive capstans? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From fsmith at ladylinux.com Tue Jul 20 21:03:31 2010 From: fsmith at ladylinux.com (Fran Smith) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2010 22:03:31 -0400 Subject: Thinning The Herd In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C465573.6090701@ladylinux.com> Hi Steve, Sorry .. Baltimore Maryland. >Can you be a bit more specific re location... for those of us who >might enjoy a drive, From rickb at bensene.com Tue Jul 20 21:08:10 2010 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2010 19:08:10 -0700 Subject: Wang 1200 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > > I may be able to get my hands on one, but I'm not sure if its complete. > > > Is this just the main CPU unit? > > Anyone out there have a complete one for comparison? http://www.wang1200.org/ The definitive source for info on the Wang 1200, courtesy of Jim Battle. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Jul 20 21:54:38 2010 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2010 20:54:38 -0600 Subject: recovering cartridge tapes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C46616E.8090300@jetnet.ab.ca> Richard wrote: > Thanks for the link, Tim. > > Still the question remains: how best to read cartridge tapes with > faulty belts and sticky drive capstans? Can you transfer the media to a different cartridge? That is all that I can think of. Ben. From rborsuk at colourfull.com Tue Jul 20 22:55:55 2010 From: rborsuk at colourfull.com (Robert Borsuk) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2010 23:55:55 -0400 Subject: Wang 1200 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <61F74CA2-ACBF-438D-8994-BA836BDF2036@colourfull.com> On Jul 20, 2010, at 9:36 PM, Richard wrote: > I may be able to get my hands on one, but I'm not sure if its complete. > > > Is this just the main CPU unit? > > Anyone out there have a complete one for comparison? > -- > "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download > > > Legalize Adulthood! Richard, I got one too. I put the trip on www.borsuk.us and a gallery of a couple of pictures on http://gallery.me.com/irisworld#100117 Jim Battle has a very nice site dedicated to them. Rob From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 20 18:23:43 2010 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2010 16:23:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: need Lisa parts In-Reply-To: <20100720173833.GA82402@allie.home.misty.com> Message-ID: <657529.61607.qm@web65512.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Mark, Interested, but I'm almost afraid to ask the price for a complete Lisa these days, despite the water damage. Still give me a holla', and I'll holla' back. Thank you. --- On Tue, 7/20/10, Mark G. Thomas wrote: > From: Mark G. Thomas > Subject: Re: need Lisa parts > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" > Date: Tuesday, July 20, 2010, 1:38 PM > Hi, > > On Sat, Jul 17, 2010 at 01:53:38PM -0700, Chris M wrote: > > in particular a nice crt-chassis, etc. > > > > I was perusing the vintage computer marketplace a few > weeks back, and someone had some of that very stuff. I think > it may even have been Erik. In any event I don't know how to > contact anyone on that site anymore, because someone gummed > up the works LOL. > > > > please let me know. Much obliged. > > I've got a complete Lisa which is in good cosmetic shape, > however sadly > it has significant water damage, at least to the CPU > related boards. > > Electrical parts shielded from the overnight it spent in > the rain might > be fine, but no promises. > > I'm not sure if you mean you need good electronics or just > mechanical > chassis parts, but please contact me directly if you might > be interested > in my Lisa for it's parts. > > Mark > > -- > Mark G. Thomas (Mark at Misty.com) > Web: http://mgtinternet.com/ > Tel: +1-215-512-0112 US: 877-512-0112 > From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 20 18:32:15 2010 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2010 16:32:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 17" CRT - Worth Keeping? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <35759.17184.qm@web65515.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> --- On Tue, 7/20/10, Tony Duell wrote: > >? I got beat (or rather just > beat myself) out of a beautiful color NCR > > PC4. Most people would say big deal, but I wanted the > damned thing! Just > > THis is not a machine I am familiar with. Think of a color Lisa w/a DOS prompt! LOL LOL LOL LOL > Now that is somethign that I would never do. I always want > to keep a classic > machine as close to the origianl design as possible. I like to think of it as a value added rework ;) As to the rest of your , Tony, you're an invaluable asset to the hobby, and an inspiration. I *can* imagine winding a transformer, but blowing a tube - although it has crossed my mind - eh, it just ain't happening. So I look for workable alternatives. Anything to keep the bugger working. My sister has a nearly brand new VGA monitor in her storage unit (~400 miles away) I gave her years ago. I'm waiting for her to move the rest of her stuff out here, and look to see if I can jimmy the thing inside the NCR's case. The NCR PC4 won some German award for something goofy like elegant design or whatever. Not sure who awarded it, or if it immediately followed Octoberfest. But it is a distinctive machine nevertheless. IMHO. From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Jul 21 00:55:42 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2010 01:55:42 -0400 Subject: Wang 1200 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C468BDE.6070309@neurotica.com> On 7/20/10 9:36 PM, Richard wrote: > I may be able to get my hands on one, but I'm not sure if its complete. > Nice score! -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jul 21 03:30:49 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2010 04:30:49 -0400 Subject: Elenco MM-8000 (OT) Message-ID: <380-22010732183049517@M2W106.mail2web.com> I was looking for something totally different on the web (always the way...) and I came across the Elenco MM-8000 kit. It appears to be in current production (and is not _that_ expensive, $120 or so). It's a kit to build (as in solder up a PCB) a single-board 8085-based computer with a keypad and even front panel switches. OK, it's OT (in that it's not 10 years old), but it certainly seems to have the feel of a classic evaluation board. Has anyone here tried it? -tony -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web.com ? Enhanced email for the mobile individual based on Microsoft? Exchange - http://link.mail2web.com/Personal/EnhancedEmail From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Wed Jul 21 03:51:44 2010 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2010 10:51:44 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Serial interfaces In-Reply-To: <4C45E1D4.2060304@neurotica.com> References: <4C45E1D4.2060304@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 20 Jul 2010, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 7/20/10 10:15 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> I use serial ports every week. > > Only every week? Every DAY here. ;) And 24/7... Nearly all of our servers have their console attached to terminal servers, not to speak of the switches and routers (mostly Cisco). They simply *can not* be maintained *without* a serial console. Christian From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Wed Jul 21 04:07:02 2010 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2010 11:07:02 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Valves/Tubes was: ez80 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 20 Jul 2010, Tony Duell wrote: > Sure, but I don;t think any manufaturer tried to include CRTs in their > valve numbering scheme. I remember the Mazda CRT code, it started with a Of course they did, in their own way. Just have a look at the European CRT numbering scheme, for example MW53-20, AW59-90, DG7-12. M=magnetic focus TV tube, A=electrostatic focus TV tube, W=white phosphor, D=scope tube, G=green(ish) phosphor; the first number is the diagonal, the second number is the actual part number within this series. The even kept this scheme with the first color TV tubes with X as color code. They later moved the color code to the end (e.g. A59-23W, A63-120X). There are more codes like for radar tubes, polar coordinate tubes, other colors and so on. Christian From tshoppa at wmata.com Wed Jul 21 05:44:35 2010 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2010 06:44:35 -0400 Subject: recovering cartridge tapes (was: Tek fiches found! Message-ID: > Still the question remains: how best to read cartridge tapes with > faulty belts and sticky drive capstans? Even 20 years ago, it was de rigueur to disassemble the cartridge and replace worn or stretched or deformed rubber parts with new or at least better components from a "donor cartridge". When the decay had left little rubber fragments in the path you had to take the cart apart to remove/clean them before reading anyway. Twenty years ago, only the worst (due to extreme ozone exposure or physical wear) carts needed this. Today the issue is that all the donor cartridges may be 20 or 30 years old too. Tim. From dkelvey at hotmail.com Wed Jul 21 07:58:39 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2010 05:58:39 -0700 Subject: recovering cartridge tapes (was: Tek fiches found! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Although, one can create a belt that will work or find a cartridge that has good bearings. Eventually you'll need to do something else. It might be worth making a transport that one can spool the tapes onto and read them that way for one last time. Then move the data to a more upto date storage. Dwight > From: tshoppa at wmata.com > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2010 06:44:35 -0400 > Subject: Re: recovering cartridge tapes (was: Tek fiches found! > > > Still the question remains: how best to read cartridge tapes with > > faulty belts and sticky drive capstans? > > Even 20 years ago, it was de rigueur to disassemble the cartridge > and replace worn or stretched or deformed rubber parts with new > or at least better components from a "donor cartridge". > > When the decay had left little rubber fragments in the path you had > to take the cart apart to remove/clean them before reading anyway. > > Twenty years ago, only the worst (due to extreme ozone exposure or > physical wear) carts needed this. Today the issue is that all the > donor cartridges may be 20 or 30 years old too. > > Tim. _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail is redefining busy with tools for the New Busy. Get more from your inbox. http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_2 From legalize at xmission.com Wed Jul 21 08:59:10 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2010 07:59:10 -0600 Subject: Wang 1200 In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 20 Jul 2010 23:55:55 -0400. <61F74CA2-ACBF-438D-8994-BA836BDF2036@colourfull.com> Message-ID: OK, based on the photos posted elsewhere, it appears that this is just the base 1200 unit and nothing else I saw matches what other people have in their photos. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jul 21 09:45:02 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2010 07:45:02 -0700 Subject: recovering cartridge tapes (was: Tek fiches found! In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: <4C46A57E.15148.5E8BCB@cclist.sydex.com> On 21 Jul 2010 at 5:58, dwight elvey wrote: > Although, one can create a belt that will work or find a cartridge > that has good bearings. Eventually you'll need to do something > else. It might be worth making a transport that one can spool > the tapes onto and read them that way for one last time. "One last time" is the part that bothers me. Almost all cartridge DC- style tapes are recorded "serpentine" style--i.e. start in one direction, shift the head, reverse, etc... So the spooling scheme had better work. I'm not aware of any 32- channel (for example) QIC heads. I suppose one could get a batch of heads and mount them, with each head offset by an appropriate amount. I like the idea of vacuum-column drives with air/vacuum capstans, but the mechanicals are going to be nasty to figure out from off-the- shelf parts. --Chuck From jplist2008 at kiwigeek.com Wed Jul 21 12:17:46 2010 From: jplist2008 at kiwigeek.com (JP Hindin) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2010 12:17:46 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Hand clocking CPUs Message-ID: Hey; I was reading something the other day about being able to hand-clock a Z80, that it was so stable (due to not using dynamic registers, apparently) that with the appropriate debounce circuit you could literally manually step it through instructions. Is this as rare as it sounds? Has anyone -tried- hand-clocking a Z80? - JP Hampton, Iowa From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Jul 21 12:43:51 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2010 13:43:51 -0400 Subject: Hand clocking CPUs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 7/21/10, JP Hindin wrote: > > Hey; > > I was reading something the other day about being able to hand-clock a > Z80, that it was so stable (due to not using dynamic registers, > apparently) that with the appropriate debounce circuit you could literally > manually step it through instructions. > > Is this as rare as it sounds? I suppose that depends on your definition of rare. It's an uncommon feature in modern processors, but probably not uncommon in the 8-bit world. A friend of mine, the older brother of the guy who taught me machine code on an Elf long, long ago, was debugging his own Elf (RCA CDP1802) and being a high school student in the 1970s, did not own much in the way of "fancy" test gear. He certainly didn't own an oscilloscope. So when he was having problems figuring out what was wrong with his Elf, he built a debounced push button and connected it in place of the 1MHz crystal. The timing diagrams in the RCA manuals are very clear and very complete. My friend stepped through the 8-clock-pulses-per-machine-cycle and watched his machine cycle through its various states (conveniently brought out on a pair of lines) and was able to debug his machine with an analog meter (used as a logic probe, essentially). > Has anyone -tried- hand-clocking a Z80? Me? No. -ethan From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Jul 21 13:09:10 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2010 14:09:10 -0400 Subject: Serial interfaces In-Reply-To: References: <4C45E1D4.2060304@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4C4737C6.2020704@neurotica.com> On 7/21/10 4:51 AM, Christian Corti wrote: >>> I use serial ports every week. >> >> Only every week? Every DAY here. ;) > > And 24/7... Nearly all of our servers have their console attached to > terminal servers, not to speak of the switches and routers (mostly > Cisco). They simply *can not* be maintained *without* a serial console. Yup, same here. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From jdr_use at bluewin.ch Wed Jul 21 13:09:17 2010 From: jdr_use at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2010 20:09:17 +0200 Subject: Data I/O 22C manual + service book available Message-ID: <4C4737CD.2030608@bluewin.ch> Free for the cost of shipping from Switzerland : Data I/O 22C manual /service book Jos Dreesen From jdr_use at bluewin.ch Wed Jul 21 13:13:58 2010 From: jdr_use at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2010 20:13:58 +0200 Subject: Looking for PDP8/A RL01 boot proms. Message-ID: <4C4738E6.7030104@bluewin.ch> I am looking for a set of boot proms that would enable me to boot from the RL01 that is connected to my PDP8/A That is, if such a boot prom actually exists..... And as a side note : why is the 8/A so unloved ? Big RL01 disk, 128k memory, fpp processor, all in one case. Try that with another -8 ! Jos From pontus at update.uu.se Wed Jul 21 13:33:24 2010 From: pontus at update.uu.se (Pontus) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2010 20:33:24 +0200 Subject: Looking for PDP8/A RL01 boot proms. In-Reply-To: <4C4738E6.7030104@bluewin.ch> References: <4C4738E6.7030104@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: <4C473D74.4020500@update.uu.se> Jos Dreesen wrote: > > I am looking for a set of boot proms that would enable me to boot from > the RL01 that is connected to my PDP8/A > That is, if such a boot prom actually exists..... > > And as a side note : why is the 8/A so unloved ? > > Big RL01 disk, 128k memory, fpp processor, all in one case. Try that > with another -8 ! > Same as for the PDP-11/44, very close to a PDP-11/70, but smaller. The answer is, it has no impressive blinkenlights. /P From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Jul 21 13:39:23 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2010 14:39:23 -0400 Subject: Looking for PDP8/A RL01 boot proms. In-Reply-To: <4C4738E6.7030104@bluewin.ch> References: <4C4738E6.7030104@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: On 7/21/10, Jos Dreesen wrote: > > I am looking for a set of boot proms that would enable me to boot from the > RL01 that is connected to my PDP8/A > That is, if such a boot prom actually exists..... It does. I have one set (and the RL8A to go with it). I do not have a spare set, though, nor do I know where to find blanks (though coincidentally, minutes ago, I was asking Charlie Lasner about a bit of firmware he was talking about that gives you conversational boot for RX, RK, RF, and TC01 DECtape). As for the "real" KM8AA ROMs, I think there are three known sets. They've been discussed on the list before, but I can't seem to find the thread easily. They took out one of the older devices to make room for the RL boot, but I can't remember for certain which device was obsoleted (probably either RF or DECtape). > And as a side note : why is the 8/A so unloved ? It came late. > Big RL01 disk, 128k memory, fpp processor, all in one case. Try that with > another -8 ! The 128K of memory wasn't all that useful with OS/8 (ISTR there was a RAM disk handler), and RTS/8, even with OS/8 as a running task, didn't seem to be all that popular (though I did gen a few RTS/8 installs back in the day, just to play with the inter-process aspect of it). I don't think the RL8A was all that popular either, not compared to the number of systems that shipped with either RK05 or RX01/RX02. My second -8 was an -8/a. I have it pretty well loaded (including a programmer's panel), but don't have an FPP for it. -ethan From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Jul 21 13:49:33 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2010 14:49:33 -0400 Subject: Hand clocking CPUs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C47413D.7080101@neurotica.com> On 7/21/10 1:17 PM, JP Hindin wrote: > I was reading something the other day about being able to hand-clock a > Z80, that it was so stable (due to not using dynamic registers, > apparently) that with the appropriate debounce circuit you could literally > manually step it through instructions. > > Is this as rare as it sounds? > > Has anyone -tried- hand-clocking a Z80? Umm yes, it's called single-stepping, and it's very common. The first Z80 system I had that had support for that built-in was my IMSAI 8080. I used single-stepping to debug my BIOS modifications in the mid-1980s. And yes my IMSAI "8080" is actually a Z80 system...It has a CCS 2810 CPU board which is compatible with the IMSAI front panel circuitry. :) A single-stepping circuit for a Z80 is pretty simple. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ajp166 at verizon.net Wed Jul 21 13:57:44 2010 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2010 14:57:44 -0400 Subject: Hand clocking CPUs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C474328.8060903@verizon.net> On 07/21/2010 01:43 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 7/21/10, JP Hindin wrote: > >> Hey; >> >> I was reading something the other day about being able to hand-clock a >> Z80, that it was so stable (due to not using dynamic registers, >> apparently) that with the appropriate debounce circuit you could literally >> manually step it through instructions. >> >> Is this as rare as it sounds? >> > I suppose that depends on your definition of rare. It's an uncommon > feature in modern processors, but probably not uncommon in the 8-bit > world. > > A friend of mine, the older brother of the guy who taught me machine > code on an Elf long, long ago, was debugging his own Elf (RCA CDP1802) > and being a high school student in the 1970s, did not own much in the > way of "fancy" test gear. He certainly didn't own an oscilloscope. > So when he was having problems figuring out what was wrong with his > Elf, he built a debounced push button and connected it in place of the > 1MHz crystal. The timing diagrams in the RCA manuals are very clear > and very complete. My friend stepped through the > 8-clock-pulses-per-machine-cycle and watched his machine cycle through > its various states (conveniently brought out on a pair of lines) and > was able to debug his machine with an analog meter (used as a logic > probe, essentially). > > >> Has anyone -tried- hand-clocking a Z80? >> > Me? No. > > -ethan > > Me, yes. Z80, 1802, 80C85, 6100 and 6120 are static by design and clock can be any debounced signal. The 8080, 8085 are dynamic, there is a minimum clock speed where internal registers (actually capacitors) may loose their charge. However I've run them very slow successfully. Can't speak for others like 6800 and 6502 (65C02 is static). In all cases running either very slow (say clock of 10,000hz or so for dynamic parts) or right down to stopped for static parts makes certain debug operations much easier. However, they can fool the unwary as loogic that works at very slow speeds can fail horribly when run at full speeds due to propagation delays. This was especially true for the 1802/5100/6120 when run near the maximum rated speeds as the CMOS logic of the day was slow (very long propagation times). However for hobby use the ability to slow or stop the cpu and observe the levels using a voltmeter, logic probe, or simple led and resistor, was both appealing and made access to CPU construction and debug approachable. Allison From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Wed Jul 21 14:03:23 2010 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2010 15:03:23 -0400 Subject: Hand clocking CPUs In-Reply-To: <4C47413D.7080101@neurotica.com> Message-ID: Dave McGuire wrote: > On 7/21/10 1:17 PM, JP Hindin wrote: > > I was reading something the other day about being able to hand-clock a > > Z80, that it was so stable (due to not using dynamic registers, > > apparently) that with the appropriate debounce circuit you could literally > > manually step it through instructions. > > > > Is this as rare as it sounds? > > > > Has anyone -tried- hand-clocking a Z80? > > Umm yes, it's called single-stepping, and it's very common. The first > Z80 system I had that had support for that built-in was my IMSAI 8080. > I used single-stepping to debug my BIOS modifications in the mid-1980s. > > And yes my IMSAI "8080" is actually a Z80 system...It has a CCS 2810 > CPU board which is compatible with the IMSAI front panel circuitry. :) Um, no. You don't understand how the front panel of the IMSAI works. It uses memory wait to stop the processor. It doesn't have anything to do with the CPU clock. From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Jul 21 14:08:36 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2010 15:08:36 -0400 Subject: Hand clocking CPUs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C4745B4.3000707@neurotica.com> On 7/21/10 3:03 PM, Bill Sudbrink wrote: >>> I was reading something the other day about being able to hand-clock a >>> Z80, that it was so stable (due to not using dynamic registers, >>> apparently) that with the appropriate debounce circuit you could literally >>> manually step it through instructions. >>> >>> Is this as rare as it sounds? >>> >>> Has anyone -tried- hand-clocking a Z80? >> >> Umm yes, it's called single-stepping, and it's very common. The first >> Z80 system I had that had support for that built-in was my IMSAI 8080. >> I used single-stepping to debug my BIOS modifications in the mid-1980s. >> >> And yes my IMSAI "8080" is actually a Z80 system...It has a CCS 2810 >> CPU board which is compatible with the IMSAI front panel circuitry. :) > > Um, no. You don't understand how the front panel of the IMSAI > works. Actually yes I do. :) I've had to dig into it several times over the years. > It uses memory wait to stop the processor. It doesn't > have anything to do with the CPU clock. No, I didn't say it did, I was talking about single-stepping in general in the context of the IMSAI system. It is indeed possible to single-step a Z80 by manually pulsing the clock. One of my SBCs does exactly that, based on a circuit in one of Steve Ciarcia's books. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From tosteve at yahoo.com Wed Jul 21 14:35:46 2010 From: tosteve at yahoo.com (steven stengel) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2010 12:35:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Micro-Systems magazines for free Message-ID: <783480.75892.qm@web110609.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> For the cost of shipping: S-100 "Micro Systems" magazines Issues 1/1 (Jan 80) through 3/4 (Jul 82). Issue 1/3 is missing. I am in southern California 92656 From tosteve at yahoo.com Wed Jul 21 14:35:47 2010 From: tosteve at yahoo.com (steven stengel) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2010 12:35:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Micro-Systems magazines for free Message-ID: <759978.75892.qm@web110609.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> For the cost of shipping: S-100 "Micro Systems" magazines Issues 1/1 (Jan 80) through 3/4 (Jul 82). Issue 1/3 is missing. I am in southern California 92656 From pete at dunnington.plus.com Wed Jul 21 14:41:27 2010 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2010 20:41:27 +0100 Subject: Hand clocking CPUs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C474D67.6090404@dunnington.plus.com> On 21/07/2010 18:17, JP Hindin wrote: > Hey; > > I was reading something the other day about being able to hand-clock a > Z80, that it was so stable (due to not using dynamic registers, > apparently) that with the appropriate debounce circuit you could literally > manually step it through instructions. > > Is this as rare as it sounds? > > Has anyone -tried- hand-clocking a Z80? Yes, using a pair of NAND gates forming an RS flip-flop to debounce a switch. I used to have a 7400 taped to a microswitch with three leads coming off it (+5V, 0V, and "clock") for that very reason. I think the last time I used it was to demonstrate to a student that it was his Z80-to-memory interface that was broken, not my RAM test :-) Single-stepping can be a useful tool. I remember being disgusted that a 6502 can't do that (it's dynamic so there's a minimum clock speed which is a lot faster than I can click a microswitch - somewhere in the kHz range IIRC). Of course on most microprocessors you can devise a circuit using WAIT states to achieve a similar (but not identical) effect; you just can't stop at arbitrary parts of the machine cycle. With a Z80, you can stop in any T-state you want. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jul 21 15:09:02 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2010 21:09:02 +0100 (BST) Subject: Valves/Tubes was: ez80 In-Reply-To: from "Christian Corti" at Jul 21, 10 11:07:02 am Message-ID: > > On Tue, 20 Jul 2010, Tony Duell wrote: > > Sure, but I don;t think any manufaturer tried to include CRTs in their > > valve numbering scheme. I remember the Mazda CRT code, it started with a > > Of course they did, in their own way. Just have a look at the European CRT > numbering scheme, for example MW53-20, AW59-90, DG7-12. M=magnetic focus > TV tube, A=electrostatic focus TV tube, W=white phosphor, D=scope tube, > G=green(ish) phosphor; the first number is the diagonal, the second number Or, sure there were coding schemes for CRTs that made snese. But I don't think any manufacturer used the same code to cover both CRts and other valves. Which amkes sense. The important characteristics of a valve and of a CRT are rather different. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jul 21 14:35:57 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2010 20:35:57 +0100 (BST) Subject: Serial interfaces (was Re: Any former Psion 5 owners out there?) In-Reply-To: <20100720151311.GC17959@n0jcf.net> from "Chris Elmquist" at Jul 20, 10 10:13:11 am Message-ID: > But-- USB has some killer applications like fans, fish tanks and > personal vibrators. Err... yes. The most stupid one I saw was a coffee cup warmer. Stupid because IIRC the maximum current a USB device can draw is 1A (after negotiation with the host). And the supply is 5V./ A 5W heater is not going to do a lot in keeping coffee warm. I am sure I saw an advert for a 'USB Pet Rock' once.... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jul 21 15:12:28 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2010 21:12:28 +0100 (BST) Subject: Hand clocking CPUs In-Reply-To: from "JP Hindin" at Jul 21, 10 12:17:46 pm Message-ID: > > > Hey; > > I was reading something the other day about being able to hand-clock a > Z80, that it was so stable (due to not using dynamic registers, > apparently) that with the appropriate debounce circuit you could literally > manually step it through instructions. Single stepping at the bus cycle level is actually quite common, and can be done on many CPUs (even those with dynamic registers). Rather than slow the clock down, you effectively include a lot of wait states so that each bus cycle is held for as long as you want. > > Is this as rare as it sounds? Not really. > > Has anyone -tried- hand-clocking a Z80? I think I have. I've certaijnly hand-stepped a PDP11/45 at the T-state level, buit that doesn't really count in that the machine was designed to let you do that... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jul 21 14:47:00 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2010 20:47:00 +0100 (BST) Subject: Valves/Tubes was: ez80 In-Reply-To: <4C45AE95.18634.16E74AE@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Jul 20, 10 02:11:33 pm Message-ID: > That's true, but only in those cases where the shell (or any other > element) is brought out to a base pin. The 1934 standard says that > an element has to be "useful" and have a connection to be counted. Right,.. It's getting to the point where all you can do is look in the valve data books.... I still much prefer the Philips coding scheme. it tells you a lot of useful information, and exceptions are not common (put it this way, I've never seen a valve which doesn't fit the scheme correctly). > > So, a 6L6 has heater, cathode, control grid, screen grid, plate and > shell all connected to base pins. The beam-forming electrodes aren't > counted, so, for instance, the 6F5 triode has exactly one fewer > "useful" electrode, even though it has two fewer elements. It appears that sometimes you count the tap on a heater (e.g. 35Z3 against 35Z4), sometimes you don't (12AX7 has 2 cathodes, 2 grids, 2 anodes and a tapped heater). > > The other requirement is that the tube must have been introduced > initially in the metal shell form (I can't think of any that were > glass, then metal, but there may be some.) My guess would be tuning indciators (magic eyes, or whatever you call them). A glss window is essential for that type of device, and I would assume many exist only in glass envelopes. > > An "S" as the first part of a middle two-letter pair signifies a > single-ended tube, which was not universally followed. Rectifiers There are many single-neded valves (no top cap) without the 'S'. > *usually* have a high-middle letter (e.g. 5U4, 5Z3), but sadly, there > are many exceptions. > > The most reliable part of the number is the suffix. e.g. G = glass, > GT = short glass, GA = improved glass version, GY = micanol base, > etc. Which is not normally the most important piece of information about a valve :-). [I thought 'GT' was 'Glass, Tubular', meaning a straight-sided envelope] > > In 1942, the RMA introduced a scheme for special-purpose and > transmitting tubes, that was called the "1A21" system. The first > number represents the power rating, the second, the tube type (e.g. > diode, triode, etc.), the second and third numbers are assigned in > the order of introduction, starting with 21. So the gas thyratron > 2D21 tells us nothing more than it's a tetrode rated for 10 watts or > less. Ah, so trhat's where that number comes from.... We call it an EN91 (6.3V heater, Thyratron, B7G base). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jul 21 14:53:35 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2010 20:53:35 +0100 (BST) Subject: Serial interfaces (was Re: Any former Psion 5 owners out there?) In-Reply-To: from "Ethan Dicks" at Jul 20, 10 05:36:09 pm Message-ID: > I do think that providing moderate amounts of power along _a_ serial > interface is a handy thing. There's a pseudo-standard to do that for Agreed. And on a parallel port. Many times I've wanted to invert a signal, or latch a signal, or add a monostable between trobe and busy, or.... And I wish I could power the extra IC from the port connector. However people will alwayus try and draw more power than they should from such things, so perhaps a power pin on the serial or parallel interface would be more trouble than it's worth. That said, some older HP terminals, HP9000/200 machines (and their serial interface cards like the 98266 and 98268) have a 50 pin microribbon connecoter for the RS232 port. Pins on that connecotr carry +5V, +12V and -12V power lines. They're intended to power various add-ons (current loop converter, HP network inteface, 300 baud modem, etc), buit they're handy for homebrew stuf as well. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jul 21 15:06:13 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2010 21:06:13 +0100 (BST) Subject: 17" CRT - Worth Keeping? In-Reply-To: <35759.17184.qm@web65515.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> from "Chris M" at Jul 20, 10 04:32:15 pm Message-ID: > > =0A=0A--- On Tue, 7/20/10, Tony Duell wrote:=0A= > =0A> >=A0 I got beat (or rather just=0A> beat myself) out of a beautiful co= > lor NCR =0A> > PC4. Most people would say big deal, but I wanted the=0A> da= > mned thing! Just =0A > =0A > THis is not a machine I am familiar with .=0A=0A = > Think of a color Lisa w/a DOS prompt! LOL LOL LOL LOL=0A =0A That sounds impossible. The Lisa as a 68K machine, and AFAIK MS-DOS (I assume that's the 'DOS' you are refering to) ran on the 80x86 only. > > Now that is somethign that I would never do. I always want=0A > > to keep a classic=0A> machine as close to the origianl design as possible. > I like to think of it as a value added rework ;) Hmmm... I really do like to keep the electronics as it was designed to be./ That's what defines the machine to me. If you mount a PC motherboard in (say) a PERQ chassis, the result is a PC, not a PERQ. And when I was repairing my HP9835CU, I had the motherboard sitting on top of the monitor case, other PCBs plugged in, the PSU input running off my bench supply, the disk drives sitting on top of said bench supply, etc. It didn't look like an HP9000 machine, but IMHO it was. It was running the HP9000 software. > As to the rest of your , Tony, you're an invaluable asset to > the hobby, and an inspiration. I *can* imagine winding a transformer, Waht's that got to do with anything> > but blowing a tube - although it has crossed my= > mind - eh, it just ain't happening. So I look for workable I don't believe I suggestedyou amde your own CRT. Having made a very poor CRT [1] at school in one of the things I did when others were booting balls around, I can understnad why you'd not want to do it. It is very hard. [1] Glass bell jar with a rubber bung in the top with 4 wires going thorugh it. 2 carried defleciton plates (just one axis, I was just proving it could be done) made from aluminium foil. The other 2 carried a michrome filament (I didn't have any tungsten). Metal base plate of the bell jar covered in ZnS. Whole thing continuously pumped by a rotary pump (not a hard enough vacuum, but it's all I had). Filament run from a lead-acid cell sitting on a glass-legged stool to insulate if from ground. HV inductuon coil between one side of the filament and metal base/'screen' to povide an acceleerating voltage. Yes, I got a spot on the ZnS. And yes I could deflect it witha permanent magnet outside the bell jar, or using the defleciton plates (a few hundred V IIRC). > alternatives. Anything to keep the bugger working. My sister has a I would replace the CRT, using something electrically similar. Even if I had to strip it from an old monitor. I would not replace the PCBs, though. -tony From shumaker at att.net Wed Jul 21 15:43:45 2010 From: shumaker at att.net (steve shumaker) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2010 16:43:45 -0400 Subject: Micro-Systems magazines for free In-Reply-To: <759978.75892.qm@web110609.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <759978.75892.qm@web110609.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4C475C01.6010207@att.net> I'll take them if they're still available Steve Shumaker Boulder Creek, CA On 7/21/2010 3:35 PM, steven stengel wrote: > For the cost of shipping: > > S-100 "Micro Systems" magazines > > Issues 1/1 (Jan 80) through 3/4 (Jul 82). > Issue 1/3 is missing. > > I am in southern California 92656 > > > > > > > > From lbickley at bickleywest.com Wed Jul 21 15:53:47 2010 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2010 13:53:47 -0700 Subject: Looking for PDP8/A RL01 boot proms. In-Reply-To: <4C4738E6.7030104@bluewin.ch> References: <4C4738E6.7030104@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: <201007211353.47664.lbickley@bickleywest.com> On Wednesday 21 July 2010, Jos Dreesen wrote: > > I am looking for a set of boot proms that would enable me to boot from the RL01 that is connected to my PDP8/A > That is, if such a boot prom actually exists..... > > And as a side note : why is the 8/A so unloved ? > > Big RL01 disk, 128k memory, fpp processor, all in one case. Try that with another -8 ! > > Jos > > I've uploaded the two bootroms you need to boot a RL01 on a PDP-8A using a KM8 (M8317). You'll need to burn the images into 82s126 chips. I've also uploaded the corresponding level 8A schmatics/manuals which have this level of ROM described (IIRC on the third page of the KM8 portion of the schematics). You can pick up the images and manual by: ftp bickleywest.com user: anonymous pswd: (email address) cd pdp8a_bootrom ... bye Cheers, Lyle -- Lyle Bickley, AF6WS Bickley Consulting West Inc. http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From legalize at xmission.com Wed Jul 21 15:54:46 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2010 14:54:46 -0600 Subject: recovering cartridge tapes (was: Tek fiches found!) In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 21 Jul 2010 07:45:02 -0700. <4C46A57E.15148.5E8BCB@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: In article <4C46A57E.15148.5E8BCB at cclist.sydex.com>, "Chuck Guzis" writes: > [...] Almost all cartridge DC- > style tapes are recorded "serpentine" style--i.e. start in one > direction, shift the head, reverse, etc... This is news to me. Every cartridge tape I've ever used recorded data to the end and then stopped. I don't recall seeing any mechanism for shifting the tape head in HP264x terminals with DC100 cartridges nor in Tektronix 4051 terminals with DC300 cartridges. > So the spooling scheme had better work. I'm not aware of any 32- > channel (for example) QIC heads. QIC tapes are something different from DC300 and DC100 tapes. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Jul 21 15:57:30 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2010 16:57:30 -0400 Subject: Looking for PDP8/A RL01 boot proms. In-Reply-To: <4C4738E6.7030104@bluewin.ch> References: <4C4738E6.7030104@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: <4C475F3A.8070401@neurotica.com> On 7/21/10 2:13 PM, Jos Dreesen wrote: > And as a side note : why is the 8/A so unloved ? > > Big RL01 disk, 128k memory, fpp processor, all in one case. Try that > with another -8 ! I've always wondered about that myself. I love 8/A systems. I've wanted one of my own for years but haven't been able to find one. Several times I've "almost" gotten my hands on one but it slipped between my fingers at the last moment. :-( Perhaps someday. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From lbickley at bickleywest.com Wed Jul 21 16:05:15 2010 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2010 14:05:15 -0700 Subject: Fwd: Re: Looking for PDP8/A RL01 boot proms. Message-ID: <201007211405.15504.lbickley@bickleywest.com> For those who use Firefox, Chrome, etc. browswers that support FTP you can also: ftp://bickleywest.com/pdp8a_bootrom/ and right click on the files... Cheers, Lyle ---------- Forwarded Message ---------- Subject: Re: Looking for PDP8/A RL01 boot proms. Date: Wednesday 21 July 2010 From: Lyle Bickley To: cctech at classiccmp.org On Wednesday 21 July 2010, Jos Dreesen wrote: > > I am looking for a set of boot proms that would enable me to boot from the RL01 that is connected to my PDP8/A > That is, if such a boot prom actually exists..... > > And as a side note : why is the 8/A so unloved ? > > Big RL01 disk, 128k memory, fpp processor, all in one case. Try that with another -8 ! > > Jos > > I've uploaded the two bootroms you need to boot a RL01 on a PDP-8A using a KM8 (M8317). You'll need to burn the images into 82s126 chips. I've also uploaded the corresponding level 8A schmatics/manuals which have this level of ROM described (IIRC on the third page of the KM8 portion of the schematics). You can pick up the images and manual by: ftp bickleywest.com user: anonymous pswd: (email address) cd pdp8a_bootrom ... bye Cheers, Lyle -- Lyle Bickley, AF6WS Bickley Consulting West Inc. http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" ------------------------------------------------------- -- Lyle Bickley, AF6WS Bickley Consulting West Inc. http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Jul 21 16:06:14 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2010 17:06:14 -0400 Subject: Looking for PDP8/A RL01 boot proms. In-Reply-To: <201007211353.47664.lbickley@bickleywest.com> References: <4C4738E6.7030104@bluewin.ch> <201007211353.47664.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Message-ID: On 7/21/10, Lyle Bickley wrote: > On Wednesday 21 July 2010, Jos Dreesen wrote: >> >> I am looking for a set of boot proms that would enable me to boot from the >> RL01 that is connected to my PDP8/A > > I've uploaded the two bootroms you need to boot a RL01 on a PDP-8A using a > KM8 (M8317). Thanks, Lyle! > You'll need to burn the images into 82s126 chips. I've also > uploaded the corresponding level 8A schmatics/manuals which have this level > of ROM described (IIRC on the third page of the KM8 portion of the > schematics). I did a little digging - it appears that the MMI 6300-1 is pin compatible with the 82s126 (and is open-collector as well). I know I have a few 6309s lying around because we used a pair of them for boot ROMs for the first model of COMBOARD. I don't know if I have any 82S126s or 6300-1s, though. > You can pick up the images and manual... Thanks much for providing those. -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Jul 21 16:10:02 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2010 17:10:02 -0400 Subject: Looking for PDP8/A RL01 boot proms. In-Reply-To: References: <4C4738E6.7030104@bluewin.ch> <201007211353.47664.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Message-ID: On 7/21/10, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 7/21/10, Lyle Bickley wrote: >> On Wednesday 21 July 2010, Jos Dreesen wrote: >>> >>> I am looking for a set of boot proms that would enable me to boot from >>> the RL01 that is connected to my PDP8/A >> >> I've uploaded the two bootroms you need to boot a RL01 on a PDP-8A using >> a KM8 (M8317). > >> You'll need to burn the images into 82s126 chips... Looks like the 74S387 is another cross. Jameco has them for $4 each. -ethan From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Jul 21 16:22:33 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2010 14:22:33 -0700 Subject: Hand clocking CPUs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C476519.4040305@brouhaha.com> JP Hindin wrote: > Has anyone -tried- hand-clocking a Z80? Won't work on an original NMOS Z80 CPU, they were definitely dynamic. You could get away with somewhat slower than the minimum spec (about 246.3 kHz for a 4MHz NMOS Z80), but not at finger speed. Some of the later CMOS Z80 cores are static, some are not. In particular, the original Z180 was CMOS but dynamic. It may be the case that all CMOS Z80 CPUs (vs. Z180 and other derivatives) are static, I'm not sure. Check the data sheet for the specific part number you're using. If you hand-clock a static CPU, remember to debounce your button or switch. Switch bounce can have glitches faster than the minimum clock pulse width spec; I've seen them on an oscilliscope many times. Even if you don't get fast glitches, you'll still get multiple pulses when only one is desired. Eric From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Jul 21 16:24:22 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2010 14:24:22 -0700 Subject: Hand clocking CPUs In-Reply-To: <4C47413D.7080101@neurotica.com> References: <4C47413D.7080101@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4C476586.6030106@brouhaha.com> Dave McGuire wrote: > A single-stepping circuit for a Z80 is pretty simple. True, but it is not quite as simple as hooking up a debounced pushbutton to the clock, which was how I interpreted the OP's question. Eric From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Jul 21 16:28:17 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2010 14:28:17 -0700 Subject: Serial interfaces (was Re: Any former Psion 5 owners out there?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C476671.4090806@brouhaha.com> Tony Duell wrote: > The most stupid one I saw was a coffee cup warmer. Stupid because IIRC > the maximum current a USB device can draw is 1A (after negotiation with > the host). And the supply is 5V./ A 5W heater is not going to do a lot in > keeping coffee warm. > It's worse than that. USB through 2.x only gives you 500mA maximum. Anything beyond that is out of spec, and you might or might not trip an overcurrent shutdown on the port, depending on the USB host circuit design. Even if the port voltage is on the high side, the most you can count on getting is 2.75W. USB 3 ups the max current to 0.9A, so you might be able to get nearly 5W, which is still, as you say, not really going to keep coffee warm. Eric From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Jul 21 16:30:14 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2010 17:30:14 -0400 Subject: Hand clocking CPUs In-Reply-To: <4C476586.6030106@brouhaha.com> References: <4C47413D.7080101@neurotica.com> <4C476586.6030106@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4C4766E6.9070209@neurotica.com> On 7/21/10 5:24 PM, Eric Smith wrote: >> A single-stepping circuit for a Z80 is pretty simple. > > True, but it is not quite as simple as hooking up a debounced pushbutton > to the clock, which was how I interpreted the OP's question. Yes, I suppose you're right. It's much nicer (IMO) to do the full trick by asserting /WAIT with /M1, a flip-flop, AND a debounced pushbutton, though. Then you get true instruction stepping, rather than cycle stepping. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jul 21 16:30:34 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2010 14:30:34 -0700 Subject: recovering cartridge tapes (was: Tek fiches found!) In-Reply-To: References: >, Message-ID: <4C47048A.9233.1D1D144@cclist.sydex.com> On 21 Jul 2010 at 14:54, Richard wrote: > QIC tapes are something different from DC300 and DC100 tapes. Really? DC300 = quarter-inch tape, 300 feet, written by lots of "QIC" 4 and 9 track drives in serpentine fashion, including the IBM 6157. My old 3M catalog lists it as a quarter-inch tape. I've got one here; fits in a standard-sized QIC drive and works like any other QIC cart (e.g. DC600A). Maybe we're caught in a Python sketch: "Cole Porter ... who wrote `Kiss Me Kate'?" "No, alas not, sir ... this was Cole Porter who wrote `Anything Goes'". --Chuck From legalize at xmission.com Wed Jul 21 17:16:05 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2010 16:16:05 -0600 Subject: recovering cartridge tapes (was: Tek fiches found!) In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 21 Jul 2010 14:30:34 -0700. <4C47048A.9233.1D1D144@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: In article <4C47048A.9233.1D1D144 at cclist.sydex.com>, "Chuck Guzis" writes: > On 21 Jul 2010 at 14:54, Richard wrote: > > > QIC tapes are something different from DC300 and DC100 tapes. > > Really? DC300 = quarter-inch tape, 300 feet, written by lots of > "QIC" 4 and 9 track drives in serpentine fashion, including the IBM > 6157. My old 3M catalog lists it as a quarter-inch tape. I've got > one here; fits in a standard-sized QIC drive and works like any other > QIC cart (e.g. DC600A). DC600 != DC300 != DC100 -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From pete at dunnington.plus.com Wed Jul 21 17:16:48 2010 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2010 23:16:48 +0100 Subject: Hand clocking CPUs In-Reply-To: <4C4766E6.9070209@neurotica.com> References: <4C47413D.7080101@neurotica.com> <4C476586.6030106@brouhaha.com> <4C4766E6.9070209@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4C4771D0.7030409@dunnington.plus.com> On 21/07/2010 22:30, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 7/21/10 5:24 PM, Eric Smith wrote: >>> A single-stepping circuit for a Z80 is pretty simple. >> True, but it is not quite as simple as hooking up a debounced pushbutton >> to the clock, which was how I interpreted the OP's question. > > Yes, I suppose you're right. It's much nicer (IMO) to do the full > trick by asserting /WAIT with /M1, a flip-flop, AND a debounced > pushbutton, though. Then you get true instruction stepping, rather than > cycle stepping. Depends on what you want. I've used a debounced switch, and sometimes it's more useful to step through the various T-states within instructions, rather than stepping an instruction at a time. Other times, it's just extra tedious. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.plus.com Wed Jul 21 17:20:00 2010 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2010 23:20:00 +0100 Subject: Hand clocking CPUs In-Reply-To: <4C476519.4040305@brouhaha.com> References: <4C476519.4040305@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4C477290.1070604@dunnington.plus.com> On 21/07/2010 22:22, Eric Smith wrote: > JP Hindin wrote: > > > Has anyone -tried- hand-clocking a Z80? > > Won't work on an original NMOS Z80 CPU, they were definitely dynamic. > You could get away with somewhat slower than the minimum spec (about > 246.3 kHz for a 4MHz NMOS Z80), but not at finger speed. > > Some of the later CMOS Z80 cores are static, some are not. In > particular, the original Z180 was CMOS but dynamic. It may be the case > that all CMOS Z80 CPUs (vs. Z180 and other derivatives) are static, I'm > not sure. Check the data sheet for the specific part number you're using. Hmm.. I've definitely done it, and on quite old parts on occasion. I thought they were NMOS but they may have been CMOS, I suppose. And I recall being told in the late 70s or possibly around 1980/81 that Z80s were static -- that would be about the time I started poking at the hardware in that sort of detail. > If you hand-clock a static CPU, remember to debounce your button or > switch. Switch bounce can have glitches faster than the minimum clock > pulse width spec; I've seen them on an oscilliscope many times. Even > if you don't get fast glitches, you'll still get multiple pulses when > only one is desired. That is definitely true. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jul 21 17:25:11 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2010 15:25:11 -0700 Subject: recovering cartridge tapes (was: Tek fiches found!) In-Reply-To: References: >, Message-ID: <4C471157.25856.203D1FC@cclist.sydex.com> On 21 Jul 2010 at 16:16, Richard wrote: > DC600 != DC300 != DC100 So what's your point? That there are no QIC11 DC300s? That would not seem to be borne out by evidence. --Chuck From lproven at gmail.com Wed Jul 21 18:54:51 2010 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2010 00:54:51 +0100 Subject: Serial interfaces In-Reply-To: <201007202328.o6KNSQJH067979@billY.EZWIND.NET> References: <201007201555.o6KFtahx044463@billY.EZWIND.NET> <201007202328.o6KNSQJH067979@billY.EZWIND.NET> Message-ID: On 21 July 2010 00:28, John Foust wrote: > At 11:16 AM 7/20/2010, Liam Proven wrote: >>All fair points, but then, who ever used serial ports to connect mass >>storage? (I know there was a serial port hard disk for the first ever >>Mac, but that was from complete lack of any alternative.) > > I can think of the Commodore 64- 1541 drive Um, that wasn't any relative of RS422, RS423, RS232 or anything akin to it, was it? I thought it was some serialised variant of an IEEE interface, as used on the PET machines... > and the external floppy drive > for the Tandy Model 100. This one I didn't know about, but Tandy machines were never very big this side of the Atlantic. /Way/ too expensive for most Brits. -- Liam Proven ? Profile & links: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From mdavidson1963 at gmail.com Wed Jul 21 18:56:18 2010 From: mdavidson1963 at gmail.com (Mark Davidson) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2010 16:56:18 -0700 Subject: Coherent 3.1.0... Message-ID: Woo-hoo! Just bought a copy (sealed, apparently) of Coherent 3.1.0 on EBay! That made my day... Mark From lproven at gmail.com Wed Jul 21 18:56:51 2010 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2010 00:56:51 +0100 Subject: Serial interfaces In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 20 July 2010 21:06, Tony Duell wrote: >> All fair points, but then, who ever used serial ports to connect mass >> storage? (I know there was a serial port hard disk for the first ever > > This is classicmp... > > Assuming by 'serial port' you mean somethign RS232-like (as opposed to > USB, firewire (which are serial interfaces), HPIL, etc) Correct. > then off th rtop > of my head, Epson did (the RS232-interfacd drive units for the HX20/PX > series of laptops). Resarch Machines did (disk unit for the 480Z, > although that was a synchonous RS232 interface). Tandy/Radio Shcack > (portable disk drive for the M100 etc). DEC did (TU58 tape cartridge > drive). There must be many others. Remarkable. I never knew. Thanks for the education. Was I correct at least inasmuch as the Mac being the only hard disk interface? >> Mac, but that was from complete lack of any alternative.) >> >> The equivalents to USB for this sort of thing were SCSI, Firewire, >> eSATA and the like - or, arguably, ST-506, ESDI and PATA/ATAPI. >> Frankly, USB has caused me less trouble than any of them, considering >> the relative volumes. No ID setting, no jumpers, no termination, >> generic cables and it even works pretty smoothly across hubs, even >> multiple ones. It's a wonder. > > I am having problems following this. It appears you're saying that USB is > superior to RS232 for all applications because USB is easier to use than, > say, SCSI for linking up mass sotroage devices (but RS232 was not > commonly used for this). I'm not saying it's superior /per se/; it's from a totally different technology generation. I'm merely saying that I like USB and find it a pleasure to work with, whereas I always found RS232 to be a PITA. No more. -- Liam Proven ? Profile & links: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From n0body.h0me at inbox.com Wed Jul 21 19:23:45 2010 From: n0body.h0me at inbox.com (N0body H0me) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2010 16:23:45 -0800 Subject: Coherent 3.1.0... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <70839D3C058.000009CFn0body.h0me@inbox.com> Wow, $10, w/ no competing bidders! It's been a long time since I've been *that* lucky on e-pay! Congrats Mark, awesome find. > -----Original Message----- > From: mdavidson1963 at gmail.com > Sent: Wed, 21 Jul 2010 16:56:18 -0700 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Coherent 3.1.0... > > Woo-hoo! Just bought a copy (sealed, apparently) of Coherent 3.1.0 on > EBay! That made my day... > > Mark ____________________________________________________________ Send your photos by email in seconds... TRY FREE IM TOOLPACK at http://www.imtoolpack.com/default.aspx?rc=if3 Works in all emails, instant messengers, blogs, forums and social networks. From mdavidson1963 at gmail.com Wed Jul 21 19:27:38 2010 From: mdavidson1963 at gmail.com (Mark Davidson) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2010 17:27:38 -0700 Subject: Coherent 3.1.0... In-Reply-To: <70839D3C058.000009CFn0body.h0me@inbox.com> References: <70839D3C058.000009CFn0body.h0me@inbox.com> Message-ID: Oh, I feel the same way. I saw "buy it now" for $9.99 and hit that button immediately! :) What got me was that I had set up a recurring search for "Coherent" on EBay and for months and months, nothing (or things that didn't even relate). Glad I kept it going... Mark On Wed, Jul 21, 2010 at 5:23 PM, N0body H0me wrote: > > Wow, $10, w/ no competing bidders! > > It's been a long time since I've been > *that* lucky on e-pay! > > Congrats Mark, awesome find. > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: mdavidson1963 at gmail.com >> Sent: Wed, 21 Jul 2010 16:56:18 -0700 >> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >> Subject: Coherent 3.1.0... >> >> Woo-hoo! ?Just bought a copy (sealed, apparently) of Coherent 3.1.0 on >> EBay! ?That made my day... >> >> Mark > > ____________________________________________________________ > Send your photos by email in seconds... > TRY FREE IM TOOLPACK at http://www.imtoolpack.com/default.aspx?rc=if3 > Works in all emails, instant messengers, blogs, forums and social networks. > From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Jul 21 19:31:55 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2010 20:31:55 -0400 Subject: Coherent 3.1.0... In-Reply-To: References: <70839D3C058.000009CFn0body.h0me@inbox.com> Message-ID: <4C47917B.3040001@neurotica.com> On 7/21/10 8:27 PM, Mark Davidson wrote: > Oh, I feel the same way. I saw "buy it now" for $9.99 and hit that > button immediately! :) What got me was that I had set up a recurring > search for "Coherent" on EBay and for months and months, nothing (or > things that didn't even relate). Glad I kept it going... An excellent score, congrats! Any chance you'll be making disk images? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mdavidson1963 at gmail.com Wed Jul 21 19:36:01 2010 From: mdavidson1963 at gmail.com (Mark Davidson) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2010 17:36:01 -0700 Subject: Coherent 3.1.0... In-Reply-To: <4C47917B.3040001@neurotica.com> References: <70839D3C058.000009CFn0body.h0me@inbox.com> <4C47917B.3040001@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Jul 21, 2010 at 5:31 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 7/21/10 8:27 PM, Mark Davidson wrote: >> Oh, I feel the same way. ?I saw "buy it now" for $9.99 and hit that >> button immediately! :) ? What got me was that I had set up a recurring >> search for "Coherent" on EBay and for months and months, nothing (or >> things that didn't even relate). ?Glad I kept it going... > > ?An excellent score, congrats! ?Any chance you'll be making disk images? > > ? ? ? ? ? -Dave Dave--- If I can, I will. I *believe* the diskettes are 5-1/4", but the owner/seller wasn't sure. I don't have a machine right now that can accomplish this, but that will hopefully change soon. In other words, I've got machines that can read 5-1/4" diskettes, but none of them can connect to the network right now (either lack of equipment or because they are in storage). Let me see what I can do... Mark From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Jul 21 20:43:17 2010 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2010 18:43:17 -0700 Subject: Coherent 3.1.0... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 4:56 PM -0700 7/21/10, Mark Davidson wrote: >Woo-hoo! Just bought a copy (sealed, apparently) of Coherent 3.1.0 on >EBay! That made my day... > >Mark Nice! I remember reading about Coherent 3.1 when I was first starting out with Linux. Back in the Linux 0.12 days I really wished I could afford a commercial UNIX variant, now everything is Linux. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | From trixter at oldskool.org Wed Jul 21 21:45:51 2010 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2010 21:45:51 -0500 Subject: Coherent 3.1.0... In-Reply-To: References: <70839D3C058.000009CFn0body.h0me@inbox.com> <4C47917B.3040001@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4C47B0DF.2010309@oldskool.org> On 7/21/2010 7:36 PM, Mark Davidson wrote: >> An excellent score, congrats! Any chance you'll be making disk images? >> > If I can, I will. I *believe* the diskettes are 5-1/4", but the > owner/seller wasn't sure. I don't have a machine right now that can > accomplish this, but that will hopefully change soon. In other words, > I've got machines that can read 5-1/4" diskettes, but none of them can > connect to the network right now (either lack of equipment or because > they are in storage). Let me see what I can do... I'm a former employee ("Jim Leonard" in the big credits page in the front of the manual). Yes, they're 5.25" 1.2MB disks, so you'll need a high-density drive. I would personally love to see images made; I overwrote all my Coherent disks (I had hundreds :-) years ago. That version of Coherent runs on 286s with minimum 640KB and up to 16MB of RAM. It will only work with MFM, RLL, and SCSI controllers, so be sure to read the documentation before wondering why it doesn't see your IDE drive. It's been 18 years since I provided technical support, so don't hold your breath ;-) -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Wed Jul 21 21:46:46 2010 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2010 21:46:46 -0500 Subject: Coherent 3.1.0... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C47B116.6070209@oldskool.org> On 7/21/2010 8:43 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: > At 4:56 PM -0700 7/21/10, Mark Davidson wrote: >> Woo-hoo! Just bought a copy (sealed, apparently) of Coherent 3.1.0 on >> EBay! That made my day... >> >> Mark > > Nice! I remember reading about Coherent 3.1 when I was first starting > out with Linux. Back in the Linux 0.12 days I really wished I could > afford a commercial UNIX variant, now everything is Linux. Towards the end of the company, most of our sales were from either SCO developers who wanted to pay $99 for a COFF-binary unix compiler instead of $1200 from SCO, or from new Linux users who wanted the gigantic and awesome Coherent manual. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From dgahling at hotmail.com Wed Jul 21 22:01:57 2010 From: dgahling at hotmail.com (Dan Gahlinger) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2010 23:01:57 -0400 Subject: Coherent 3.1.0... In-Reply-To: <4C47B116.6070209@oldskool.org> References: , , <4C47B116.6070209@oldskool.org> Message-ID: vetusware seems to have 4.2.10 or is that something else? > Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2010 21:46:46 -0500 > From: trixter at oldskool.org > To: General at mail.mobygames.com > Subject: Re: Coherent 3.1.0... > > On 7/21/2010 8:43 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: > > At 4:56 PM -0700 7/21/10, Mark Davidson wrote: > >> Woo-hoo! Just bought a copy (sealed, apparently) of Coherent 3.1.0 on > >> EBay! That made my day... > >> > >> Mark > > > > Nice! I remember reading about Coherent 3.1 when I was first starting > > out with Linux. Back in the Linux 0.12 days I really wished I could > > afford a commercial UNIX variant, now everything is Linux. > > Towards the end of the company, most of our sales were from either SCO > developers who wanted to pay $99 for a COFF-binary unix compiler instead > of $1200 from SCO, or from new Linux users who wanted the gigantic and > awesome Coherent manual. > -- > Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ > Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ > Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ > A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ _________________________________________________________________ Game on: Challenge friends to great games on Messenger http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9734387 From teoz at neo.rr.com Wed Jul 21 22:02:54 2010 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2010 23:02:54 -0400 Subject: Coherent 3.1.0... References: <70839D3C058.000009CFn0body.h0me@inbox.com> Message-ID: Nice of them to use Media Mail shipping (only $3). Sometimes you find some cool software and they want $25 for shipping. ----- Original Message ----- From: "N0body H0me" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Wednesday, July 21, 2010 8:23 PM Subject: RE: Coherent 3.1.0... Wow, $10, w/ no competing bidders! It's been a long time since I've been *that* lucky on e-pay! Congrats Mark, awesome find. > -----Original Message----- > From: mdavidson1963 at gmail.com > Sent: Wed, 21 Jul 2010 16:56:18 -0700 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Coherent 3.1.0... > > Woo-hoo! Just bought a copy (sealed, apparently) of Coherent 3.1.0 on > EBay! That made my day... > > Mark ____________________________________________________________ Send your photos by email in seconds... TRY FREE IM TOOLPACK at http://www.imtoolpack.com/default.aspx?rc=if3 Works in all emails, instant messengers, blogs, forums and social networks. From mdavidson1963 at gmail.com Wed Jul 21 22:14:34 2010 From: mdavidson1963 at gmail.com (Mark Davidson) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2010 20:14:34 -0700 Subject: Coherent 3.1.0... In-Reply-To: References: <70839D3C058.000009CFn0body.h0me@inbox.com> Message-ID: Yes, I like that too. Jim, one of the reasons I am so excited is because of the awesome manual. I had previously owned several versions of Coherent (3.x and 4.x). In fact, if you go search Google Groups, you can find this: http://groups.google.com/group/comp.os.misc/browse_thread/thread/21bad9e99e67378e/7009e0fc9ad60f86?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&q=md386 md386 was my Coherent box, back in 1990. I remember being completely thrilled that I got uux and uucp working with the local provider of news feeds. I'll try and see about making images... I figured they were 5-1/4" diskettes, but I'm just happy to find a copy with docs... and Jim, I did realize that it only supported MFM, RLL and SCSI (but I appreciate you pointing it out). Mark On Wed, Jul 21, 2010 at 8:02 PM, Teo Zenios wrote: > Nice of them to use Media Mail shipping (only $3). Sometimes you find some > cool software and they want $25 for shipping. > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "N0body H0me" > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Sent: Wednesday, July 21, 2010 8:23 PM > Subject: RE: Coherent 3.1.0... > > > > Wow, $10, w/ no competing bidders! > > It's been a long time since I've been > *that* lucky on e-pay! > > Congrats Mark, awesome find. > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: mdavidson1963 at gmail.com >> Sent: Wed, 21 Jul 2010 16:56:18 -0700 >> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >> Subject: Coherent 3.1.0... >> >> Woo-hoo! ?Just bought a copy (sealed, apparently) of Coherent 3.1.0 on >> EBay! ?That made my day... >> >> Mark > > ____________________________________________________________ > Send your photos by email in seconds... > TRY FREE IM TOOLPACK at http://www.imtoolpack.com/default.aspx?rc=if3 > Works in all emails, instant messengers, blogs, forums and social networks. > From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Thu Jul 22 00:45:51 2010 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2010 22:45:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: S100 omninet driver Message-ID: I seem to recall some talk about omninet. I found a disk labeled "S100 Omninet drivers for CP/M 2.2". -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu From n0body.h0me at inbox.com Thu Jul 22 01:19:22 2010 From: n0body.h0me at inbox.com (N0body H0me) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2010 22:19:22 -0800 Subject: Coherent 3.1.0... In-Reply-To: References: <70839d3c058.000009cfn0body.h0me@inbox.com> Message-ID: <739E7C5CCB6.000001C3n0body.h0me@inbox.com> Heh, yeah, if I end up paying $25 shipping for an $8 item (like a scarce ISA board or something like that) I nail 'em with bad feedback in the 'Were shipping charges reasonable?' category. Hit 'n run. > -----Original Message----- > From: teoz at neo.rr.com > Sent: Wed, 21 Jul 2010 23:02:54 -0400 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Coherent 3.1.0... > > Nice of them to use Media Mail shipping (only $3). Sometimes you find > some > cool software and they want $25 for shipping. > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "N0body H0me" > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Sent: Wednesday, July 21, 2010 8:23 PM > Subject: RE: Coherent 3.1.0... > > > > Wow, $10, w/ no competing bidders! > > It's been a long time since I've been > *that* lucky on e-pay! > > Congrats Mark, awesome find. > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: mdavidson1963 at gmail.com >> Sent: Wed, 21 Jul 2010 16:56:18 -0700 >> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >> Subject: Coherent 3.1.0... >> >> Woo-hoo! Just bought a copy (sealed, apparently) of Coherent 3.1.0 on >> EBay! That made my day... >> >> Mark > > ____________________________________________________________ > Send your photos by email in seconds... > TRY FREE IM TOOLPACK at http://www.imtoolpack.com/default.aspx?rc=if3 > Works in all emails, instant messengers, blogs, forums and social > networks. ____________________________________________________________ Publish your photos in seconds for FREE TRY IM TOOLPACK at http://www.imtoolpack.com/default.aspx?rc=if4 From rachael at telefisk.org Thu Jul 22 01:19:27 2010 From: rachael at telefisk.org (rachael at telefisk.org) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2010 08:19:27 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Coherent 3.1.0... In-Reply-To: References: , , <4C47B116.6070209@oldskool.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 21 Jul 2010, Dan Gahlinger wrote: > > vetusware seems to have 4.2.10 or is that something else? > is the version for 486, that has the large memory model. I happen to have a small collection of coherent on my gopher site, gopher://telefisk.org/coherent regards -- Jacob Dahl Pind | telefisk.org | fidonet 2:237/38.8 From bqt at softjar.se Wed Jul 21 06:47:53 2010 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2010 13:47:53 +0200 Subject: RTEM-11 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C46DE69.6090000@softjar.se> "Jerome H. Fine" wrote: > >Johnny Billquist wrote: > >>> >> My reference to a specific "feature" is with respect to the actual >>> >> details of >>> >> the RTS in question. For RSTS/E, the RTS to handle RT-11 EMT requests >>> >> does not support even all of the RT-11 EMT requests which the RT11SJ >>> >> monitor in RT-11 supports. For example, the .CStatus request is ignored >>> >> and the .SaveStatus request return the "dev:filnam.typ" and [PPN] for >>> >> the >>> >> file in question rather than the five Channel Status words used in an >>> >> RT-11 >>> >> environment. So there are significant differences between the RT-11 RTS >>> >> under RSTS/E and an actual RT11SJ monitor running under a PDP-11 >>> >> instruction set (specified so as to include both a DEC CPU and an >>> >> emulator >>> >> such as SIMH). >> > >> > Yes. And RTEM-11 will also behave slightly differently that vanilla >> > RT-11 for some of those calls. And assuming there is a product called >> > RTEM, which runs under VMS, it too will behave differently than RT-11. >> > However, RTEM-11 and this RTEM will not necessarily behave the same >> > way, since RTEM-11 and RTEM are different products, and different >> > implementations, written by different people (assumingly) at different >> > times. > > Agreed! The problem is that I have been unable to locate any > documentation for which RT-11 EMT requests are handled by > the RTEM-11 RTS along with the differences between RT-11 > and the RTEM-11 RTS. *sigh* Still not an RTS... RTEM-11 is a program, not an RTS. There is no RTS concept in RSX. > The RSTS/E RTS system for RT-11 EMT requests is fairly well > documented in the RSTS/E documentation. The only areas which > are a bit hazy is when the [PPN] (at offset zero in the Common > Area) is not specified (left at zero). If the [PPN] is included, then > it is used correctly along with the file name that is specified. > > But for RTEM-11, I don't have any documentation at all. The obvious answer is that this is documented in the manual that came with RTEM-11. Now, you just need to find someone who has it... (not me) >> > RTEM-11 is not an RTS. RTEM-11 is a product that ran (runs) under RSX. >> > If I were to make a qualified guess, I'd suspect that RTEM-11 is a >> > program that you start just like any other program under RSX. That >> > program then looks like an RT-11 environment, so you can run RT-11 >> > programs inside that. >> > RTEM-11 will catch EMTs and other traps, and do something appropriate >> > to those traps. It's not difficult to catch traps in an RSX program. >> > Exactly what it does, and how, is another issue. And that is something >> > you are asking about, and which I cannot answer, and it seems noone >> > else can either, since noone around here have RTEM-11, or have used >> > it. As I said, I think Megan mentioned that she had used it, but she's >> > the only one I know of who have admitted to any knowledge about this >> > product. > > I suspect that Megan is no longer available for help. I have not seen or heard from her for a long time. You know anything? >>> >> On the >>> >> other hand, I doubt that anyone will be likely to even test the >>> >> RTEM-11 handling >>> >> portion of the code, so I am probably going to just assume that what >>> >> works for the >>> >> RT-11 RTS system under RSTS/E will also suffice for the RTEM-11 RTS >>> >> under >>> >> RSX-11. >> > >> > Not an RTS, but anyway, you are most probably very correct in the >> > assumption that no one will test you code under RTEM-11. > > That should make the situation fairly simple. I will ask anyone who > actually > does run under RTEM-11 to contact me if it does not work. Since I will > be 72 years old in a few days, and I doubt that the code will be finished > very soon, they won't have many years to check in. Do that. I very much doubt you'll get any response though. >>> >> That is what I had assumed, however, I am curious how RSTS/E decides >>> >> which RTS to use - or none at all as the case might be. >> > >> > Are you not reading what I am writing? >> > This is an attribute of the file. You *tell* which RTS a program >> > should run under. Normally you do not need to do this explicitly, >> > since every file always have an RTS associated with it, and it's >> > normally already correct, so no need to change it. > > I have access to both V7 and V10.1 or RSTS/E. However, I have not found the > program in V10.1 which copies files from RT-11 files structures to > RSTS/E file > structures. And this has just about nothing to do with the question on how RSTS/E determines which RTS a program runs under, but anyway... As I've said before, I know about FIT. If DEC replaced FIT with something else in RSTS/E V10, then you just have to search around in the system. Look at the help files. That's usually a good place to start searching. Read the manuals. I think the V10 manuals are online somewhere as well. I don't have any better answer off my head, and I am not going to install RSTS/E to figure this out for you. You can do the work yourself. It shouldn't be hard. But by now it should be obvious that no one around here is offering the answer so you'll have to figure it out yourself. > Under V7, RSTS/E has a program named FIT which I use to copy > a program from an RX02 device to an RL02 device. Based on your description, > FIT must attach the RT-11 attribute to the file during the copy. Yes, it's a fairly good assumption that FIT will create all copied files from an RT-11 formatted disk on the RSTS/E system assigned to the RT11 RTS. Assigning any other RTS to the files would probably be a mistake, since the files most probably are coming from an RT11 system. > It would be appreciated if you could confirm that I finally have it > correct. If you mean the guess that FIT would copy the files and assign them to the RT11 RTS, then yes. That is most likely correct. It might even be that FIT is an RT11 program itself as well... >>> >> Well, I am having difficulty finding the "new" program under V10.1 of >>> >> RSTS/E. >>> >> I finally managed to figure out how to MOUNT the RL02 drives I am >>> >> "using" >>> >> (don't forget that all the code is being run under SIMH or E11) under >>> >> V7 of >>> >> RSTS/E when I am running V10.1 of RSTS/E. Since FIT had already copied >>> >> to file to the RL02 drives, I could then used PIP to copy the program >>> >> in I am >>> >> testing to the correct [PPN] on the DU0: drive which is being "used" >>> >> to run >>> >> V10.1 of RSTS/E. A bit inconvenient, but fortunately faster than on >>> >> a DEC >>> >> system. >> > >> > That sentence makes no sense. Either you are running RSTS/E V7, or >> > RSTS/E V10, you cannot run RSTS/E V10 when you are running RSTS/E V7, >> > or vice versa. You'll have to reboot the machine in order to run >> > another version of RSTS/E. > > AGREED!! When I tested the program under V10.1 of RSTS/E, the only > way I managed to copy the program after booting V10.1 of RSTS/E on the > DU0: device was to MOUNTed the RL02 device which had the program I > wanted to test. The RL02 device had previously been booted to V7 of RSTS/E > and FIT had been used to copy the program from the RX02 device to the RL02 > device. > > So YES, two boots were required, the first to copy the program from the RX02 > device (with an RT-11 file structure) to the RL02 with a RSTS/E file > structure > using FIT under V7 of RSTS/E. Then I SHUTUP V7 of RSTS/E, booted the > DU0: device which has V10.1 of RSTS/E, MOUNTed the RL02 and copied > the program from the RL02 to the DU0: device. Since this will not be done > except for testing, it is acceptable. Aha. So what you actually are saying is that you booted RSTS/E V7, copied the files from an RT11 formatted disk into the RSTS/E system. You then booted RSTS/E V10, and accessed the files previously copied. Yes, that would work just fine. >> > With ODT linked in to the program, just as you mentioned that people >> > normally did with RT11 in the past as well. >> > >> > The same type of development cycle is still what people use to this >> > day. You build a special debug version, which you run through the >> > debugger, and when you are happy, you build a new, leaner version, >> > without debug support. > > I agree that this was also done in the past with RT-11. And is still done to this day in RSTS/E and RSX. And while exactly the same, something similar is done in Unix systems, Windows systems, VMS systems, and any other system I can think of. The reason being that for debugging you don't want a compiler to optimize things, and you want to include symbol tables in the compiled image for debugging purposes, while you do not want that stuff for the finished program, since it takes space and makes the program slower (symbol table and non-optimization). Modern systems however, usually allows the debugger to be dynamically attached to a running program so you don't have to include that bit already at the link stage. >> > I'm not sure how you use that device driver under RT11, nor how useful >> > it actually is... > > However, by V05.04 of RT-11, DEC developed the SD(X).SYS device > driver which allowed a program to have a BPT instruction without the > requirement to include ODT as part of the code. If the user LOADed > SDX.SYS prior to executing the program with the BPT, but without > ODT included, the code in SDX.SYS initialized the required VECTOR > to trap the BPT instruction when SDX.SYS was LOADed. The code > in SDX.SYS then performed all of the functions that ODT supported > (and a few others as well) without adding any extra code to the program > being tested. It is even possible to place a BPT in the monitor code > and test those instructions as well. Ok. So, no symbol table stuff, and no possibility to add breakpoints, watchpoints and other stuff in the program until you hit atleast one BPT in the code which cause the code in SDX to be called? > Based on some of the comments in the SDX.SYS source file, it looks > like it is also available under both RSTS/E and RSX-11. However, > since I have almost no knowledge of RSTS/E and even less of RSX-11, > I can't even begin to speculate why those comments are in the source > file. I dare say that it would be impossible to do the same in RSTS/E or RSX. The reason is that the BPT vector that the CPU uses is set up by the operating system, and is always used. Any program running does not use that vector, but has a dynamically installed debug vector defined as a part of the system image, or set up by a system call by the running program. You do not, and can not, access the hardware related things directly in RSX or RSTS/E and hope that anything will contiue to work. The hardware BPT vector is used by the executive debugger in RSX (XTD), which is a OS debugger somewhat similar to ODT, but specifically designed to debug the OS. It is always there, and if you mess with that, you are going to be sorry. When a user program executes a BPT instruction, the kernel gets called. It checks wether the program have installed a debug handler, and if so, that handler is being called in the context of the user program. If no debug handler have been installed for that program, the program aborts. You can have any number of programs running in parallel, all with their own installed debug handlers, which can actually be different debuggers that have nothing to do with each other. How on earth do you think a common device driver could ever handle such a situation? RT11 is a single user system, where the OS do so much less for you that this concept is even possible. For more complex systems, you cannot do things this way. Johnny From pinball at telus.net Wed Jul 21 14:51:21 2010 From: pinball at telus.net (John Robertson) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2010 12:51:21 -0700 Subject: Hand clocking CPUs In-Reply-To: <4C47413D.7080101@neurotica.com> References: <4C47413D.7080101@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4C474FB9.1090509@telus.net> Dave McGuire wrote: > On 7/21/10 1:17 PM, JP Hindin wrote: > >> I was reading something the other day about being able to hand-clock a >> Z80, that it was so stable (due to not using dynamic registers, >> apparently) that with the appropriate debounce circuit you could literally >> manually step it through instructions. >> >> Is this as rare as it sounds? >> >> Has anyone -tried- hand-clocking a Z80? >> > > Umm yes, it's called single-stepping, and it's very common. The first > Z80 system I had that had support for that built-in was my IMSAI 8080. > I used single-stepping to debug my BIOS modifications in the mid-1980s. > > And yes my IMSAI "8080" is actually a Z80 system...It has a CCS 2810 > CPU board which is compatible with the IMSAI front panel circuitry. :) > > A single-stepping circuit for a Z80 is pretty simple. > > -Dave > > The only problem I could see is if the RAM memory is dynamic and one made the mistake of single stepping the board master clock rather than the Z-80 CPU clock. Static RAM wouldn't care... John :-#)# From jws at jwsss.com Wed Jul 21 22:04:17 2010 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2010 20:04:17 -0700 Subject: Coherent 3.1.0... In-Reply-To: <4C47B0DF.2010309@oldskool.org> References: <70839D3C058.000009CFn0body.h0me@inbox.com> <4C47917B.3040001@neurotica.com> <4C47B0DF.2010309@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <4C47B531.60005@jwsss.com> Might it work on Bochs with proper rework of the controller code? It would be great to run it on a simulator, and not have to mess with cranky old museum collection systems. Jim On 7/21/2010 7:45 PM, Jim Leonard wrote: > On 7/21/2010 7:36 PM, Mark Davidson wrote: >>> An excellent score, congrats! Any chance you'll be making disk >>> images? >>> >> If I can, I will. I *believe* the diskettes are 5-1/4", but the >> owner/seller wasn't sure. I don't have a machine right now that can >> accomplish this, but that will hopefully change soon. In other words, >> I've got machines that can read 5-1/4" diskettes, but none of them can >> connect to the network right now (either lack of equipment or because >> they are in storage). Let me see what I can do... > > I'm a former employee ("Jim Leonard" in the big credits page in the > front of the manual). Yes, they're 5.25" 1.2MB disks, so you'll need > a high-density drive. I would personally love to see images made; I > overwrote all my Coherent disks (I had hundreds :-) years ago. > > That version of Coherent runs on 286s with minimum 640KB and up to > 16MB of RAM. It will only work with MFM, RLL, and SCSI controllers, > so be sure to read the documentation before wondering why it doesn't > see your IDE drive. > > It's been 18 years since I provided technical support, so don't hold > your breath ;-) From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 20 18:33:55 2010 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2010 16:33:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: MacPaint and QuickDraw source code released In-Reply-To: <4C45FFB1.90801@arachelian.com> Message-ID: <88802.53247.qm@web65502.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> --- On Tue, 7/20/10, Ray Arachelian wrote: > Found the link below this morning, > mostly assembly with some Pascal as > to be expected.? Hopefully more will show up. > Looks like there's a nice history there as well. > > http://www.computerhistory.org/highlights/macpaint/ Neato. Thank you. From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 21 19:00:16 2010 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2010 17:00:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SLAMMING vintage computer auction ends Message-ID: <725774.32960.qm@web65506.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> made you look: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=120596128607&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT Canon CX-1. Not in the greatest condition, but it's the first time I've seen one offered. 6809 based. My Canon AS100 has something in the way of a native debugger also (haven't turned it on in over a year). starting bid was 25$. Ended at about 235$. And I had thought that no one even knew it existed. From rachael at telefisk.org Thu Jul 22 04:02:53 2010 From: rachael at telefisk.org (rachael at telefisk.org) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2010 11:02:53 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Coherent 3.1.0... In-Reply-To: <4C47B531.60005@jwsss.com> References: <70839D3C058.000009CFn0body.h0me@inbox.com> <4C47917B.3040001@neurotica.com> <4C47B0DF.2010309@oldskool.org> <4C47B531.60005@jwsss.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 21 Jul 2010, jim s wrote: > Might it work on Bochs with proper rework of the controller code? It would > be great to run it on a simulator, and not have to mess with cranky old > museum collection systems. it can be made to work in qemu , it gets pass the floppy controler check in the start of the boot, but that is the 32bit for 386/486. Think the bochs still has problems with 286 code and ega code, xenix doesnt work on it because of that. Regards -- Jacob Dahl Pind | telefisk.org | fidonet 2:237/38.8 From smoothbase at mac.com Thu Jul 22 05:07:02 2010 From: smoothbase at mac.com (smoothbase) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2010 12:07:02 +0200 Subject: Cayman GatorBox CS firmware update issues Message-ID: Do you still have at least one box left in your storage Am I the lucky one and how much it is sincerely Jean-Pierre Baselis Boston and Paris From snhirsch at gmail.com Thu Jul 22 06:49:07 2010 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2010 07:49:07 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Coherent 3.1.0... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 21 Jul 2010, Mark Davidson wrote: > Woo-hoo! Just bought a copy (sealed, apparently) of Coherent 3.1.0 on > EBay! That made my day... Didn't know anyone was looking for it. I have a full set of diskettes and docs for 4.2.10. -- From snhirsch at gmail.com Thu Jul 22 06:52:39 2010 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2010 07:52:39 -0400 (EDT) Subject: S100 omninet driver In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 21 Jul 2010, David Griffith wrote: > > I seem to recall some talk about omninet. I found a disk labeled "S100 > Omninet drivers for CP/M 2.2". That would be nice to have, if you wouldn't mind mailing me an image. Several times I've come close to nailing an S100 Omninet controller, but the owners invariably disappear and/or stop responding to e-mail. -- From chrise at pobox.com Thu Jul 22 06:05:49 2010 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2010 06:05:49 -0500 Subject: Serial interfaces (was Re: Any former Psion 5 owners out there?) In-Reply-To: <4C476671.4090806@brouhaha.com> References: <4C476671.4090806@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <20100722110549.GL8300@n0jcf.net> On Wednesday (07/21/2010 at 02:28PM -0700), Eric Smith wrote: > Tony Duell wrote: >> The most stupid one I saw was a coffee cup warmer. Stupid because IIRC >> the maximum current a USB device can draw is 1A (after negotiation with >> the host). And the supply is 5V./ A 5W heater is not going to do a lot in >> keeping coffee warm. >> > > It's worse than that. USB through 2.x only gives you 500mA maximum. > Anything beyond that is out of spec, and you might or might not trip an > overcurrent shutdown on the port, depending on the USB host circuit > design. Even if the port voltage is on the high side, the most you can > count on getting is 2.75W. > > USB 3 ups the max current to 0.9A, so you might be able to get nearly > 5W, which is still, as you say, not really going to keep coffee warm. I think you guys are missing all the real breakthroughs in USB technology, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jOPgXoBhhRM&feature=related or http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jqzVwuNKPmc&feature=related and straight from France, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BNa8zEYp7WE&feature=related -- Chris Elmquist From brad at heeltoe.com Thu Jul 22 08:44:42 2010 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2010 09:44:42 -0400 Subject: MacPaint and QuickDraw source code released In-Reply-To: (sfid-20100720_170128_874916_1226A345) References: <4C45FFB1.90801@arachelian.com> (sfid-20100720_170128_874916_1226A345) Message-ID: <4C484B4A.4070709@heeltoe.com> Ethan Dicks wrote: > I did see something at the top of Paintasm.a that I'm hoping comes > with the right development environment: > > .INCLUDE MAC:GRAFTYPES.TEXT > .INCLUDE MAC:SYSEQU.TEXT > .INCLUDE MAC:SYSMACS.TEXT > .INCLUDE MAC:TOOLEQU.TEXT > .INCLUDE MAC:GRAFEQU.TEXT > .INCLUDE MAC:TOOLMACS.TEXT > > Are there any old-time Mac developers on the list who might remember > what tools/files are needed to turn this code back into a working > binary? I would guess, given the dates on the files (1983) that they did the work on a Lisa. Even in 1984 I had to use a Lisa to build code. I can't remember what tools were used, but there was an editor, an assembler and a resource compiler which put it all together. We did a lot of "sneaker net" with floppies. And we learned to swear at the 5mb profile disk drives. I've never used Think Pascal, but I did use Think C (LightSpeed C) a lot. I wonder if you could port it to Think Pascal... I would think you could. Or maybe it would "just build" using MPW. I doubt it, however. MPW and the Lisa didn't share much as I recall. -brad From ray at arachelian.com Thu Jul 22 09:17:33 2010 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2010 10:17:33 -0400 Subject: Coherent 3.1.0... In-Reply-To: <4C47917B.3040001@neurotica.com> References: <70839D3C058.000009CFn0body.h0me@inbox.com> <4C47917B.3040001@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4C4852FD.2010907@arachelian.com> On 07/21/2010 08:31 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > An excellent score, congrats! Any chance you'll be making disk images? > > I think I have the 3.5" version of this, not sure what version. Not sure if this is the big huge "phonebook" manual, or for which version, but there's a manual here: http://www.tenox.tc/docs/ From ray at arachelian.com Thu Jul 22 09:25:18 2010 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2010 10:25:18 -0400 Subject: Coherent 3.1.0... In-Reply-To: References: <70839D3C058.000009CFn0body.h0me@inbox.com> Message-ID: <4C4854CE.5010100@arachelian.com> On 07/21/2010 11:14 PM, Mark Davidson wrote: I > I did realize that it only supported MFM, RLL and SCSI (but I appreciate > you pointing it out). > I remember there might be another problem with it. It requires a keytronic(sp?) keyboard as it reprograms the keyboard controller. I remember spending $50 on one just to run Coherent because the cheapo one that came with my 486 didn't work with it. Hopefully BOCHS or whatever emulator you pick to run it on will support that emulation. :) I think I have X11 for this as well somewhere. Hopefully yours has it too. From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Jul 22 09:27:30 2010 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2010 10:27:30 -0400 Subject: Serial interfaces (was Re: Any former Psion 5 owners out there?) In-Reply-To: <20100722110549.GL8300@n0jcf.net> References: <4C476671.4090806@brouhaha.com> <20100722110549.GL8300@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <4C485552.7030102@gmail.com> Chris Elmquist wrote: >> USB 3 ups the max current to 0.9A, so you might be able to get nearly >> 5W, which is still, as you say, not really going to keep coffee warm. > > > I think you guys are missing all the real breakthroughs in USB > technology, > Some synopses might help, for those of us who can't afford the time to sit through three Youtube videos. Peace... Sridhar From ray at arachelian.com Thu Jul 22 09:28:39 2010 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2010 10:28:39 -0400 Subject: Coherent 3.1.0... In-Reply-To: References: , , <4C47B116.6070209@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <4C485597.9070203@arachelian.com> On 07/22/2010 02:19 AM, rachael at telefisk.org wrote: > > I happen to have a small collection of coherent on my gopher site, > gopher://telefisk.org/coherent Either my firefox is acting up or that url has issues. I get: 0'oherent' does not exist error.host 1 . From legalize at xmission.com Thu Jul 22 09:29:58 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2010 08:29:58 -0600 Subject: recovering cartridge tapes (was: Tek fiches found!) In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 21 Jul 2010 15:25:11 -0700. <4C471157.25856.203D1FC@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: In article <4C471157.25856.203D1FC at cclist.sydex.com>, "Chuck Guzis" writes: > On 21 Jul 2010 at 16:16, Richard wrote: > > > DC600 != DC300 != DC100 > > So what's your point? That there are no QIC11 DC300s? Your discussion seems to relate to DC600 mechanisms, not to the DC100 or DC500 mechanisms that I have seen in my equipment. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Jul 22 09:44:34 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2010 10:44:34 -0400 Subject: Serial interfaces (was Re: Any former Psion 5 owners out there?) In-Reply-To: <4C485552.7030102@gmail.com> References: <4C476671.4090806@brouhaha.com> <20100722110549.GL8300@n0jcf.net> <4C485552.7030102@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 7/22/10, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >> I think you guys are missing all the real breakthroughs in USB >> technology, >> > > Some synopses might help, for those of us who can't afford the time to > sit through three Youtube videos. Or who don't want to wait for them to trickle in at 56Kbps... -ethan From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Jul 22 09:52:24 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2010 07:52:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Coherent 3.1.0... In-Reply-To: <4C485597.9070203@arachelian.com> from Ray Arachelian at "Jul 22, 10 10:28:39 am" Message-ID: <201007221452.o6MEqOpZ012594@floodgap.com> > > I happen to have a small collection of coherent on my gopher site, > > gopher://telefisk.org/coherent > > Either my firefox is acting up or that url has issues. I get: > > 0'oherent' does not exist error.host 1 Try gopher://telefisk.org/1/coherent Also, since I can't resist a shameless plug, Gopher protocol support will be disappearing from Mozilla starting with Firefox 4.0/SeaMonkey 2.1. Maintain legacy protocols today! It works with Firefox 3.0 on up and the Fx 4.0 beta. SeaMonkey version coming soon. https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/7685/ -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- NO, I'M NOT AN ELITIST...WHY DO YOU ASK, PEASANT? -- Rusty Spoon ----------- From ray at arachelian.com Thu Jul 22 09:53:17 2010 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2010 10:53:17 -0400 Subject: Coherent 3.1.0... In-Reply-To: <4C485597.9070203@arachelian.com> References: , , <4C47B116.6070209@oldskool.org> <4C485597.9070203@arachelian.com> Message-ID: <4C485B5D.9090103@arachelian.com> On 07/22/2010 10:28 AM, Ray Arachelian wrote: > On 07/22/2010 02:19 AM, rachael at telefisk.org wrote: > >> I happen to have a small collection of coherent on my gopher site, >> gopher://telefisk.org/coherent >> > Either my firefox is acting up or that url has issues. I get: > > 0'oherent' does not exist error.host 1 > . > > > > This link works: gopher://telefisk.org/11/coherent From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Jul 22 09:54:44 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2010 07:54:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Great and less great uses for USB was Re: Serial interfaces was Re: Any former Psion 5 owners out there? In-Reply-To: <4C485552.7030102@gmail.com> from Sridhar Ayengar at "Jul 22, 10 10:27:30 am" Message-ID: <201007221454.o6MEsiB9005926@floodgap.com> > > I think you guys are missing all the real breakthroughs in USB > > technology, > > Some synopses might help, for those of us who can't afford the time to > sit through three Youtube videos. First two videos: Dog violates USB port in a manner illegal in some states. Third video: French couple exults that their computer turns electrons into wine through their USB port for the low cost of approximately 10 euros. God bless YouTube. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Remember, kids: for great justice take off every zig! ---------------------- From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Jul 22 10:02:07 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2010 08:02:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: MacPaint and QuickDraw source code released In-Reply-To: <4C484B4A.4070709@heeltoe.com> from Brad Parker at "Jul 22, 10 09:44:42 am" Message-ID: <201007221502.o6MF27iP018418@floodgap.com> > I've never used Think Pascal, but I did use Think C (LightSpeed C) a > lot. I wonder if you could port it to Think Pascal... I would think you > could. Or maybe it would "just build" using MPW. Glancing cursorily, I think MPW would have a fit. The .rsrc file also needs to be turned into a proper resource fork. My instinct would be to try to pre-process it. I agree THINK Pascal would be the logical, closest first target. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- The moon may be smaller than the Earth, but it's farther away. ------------- From ray at arachelian.com Thu Jul 22 10:03:03 2010 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2010 11:03:03 -0400 Subject: Coherent 3.1.0... In-Reply-To: <201007221452.o6MEqOpZ012594@floodgap.com> References: <201007221452.o6MEqOpZ012594@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <4C485DA7.1080605@arachelian.com> On 07/22/2010 10:52 AM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > gopher://telefisk.org/1/coherent > > > Also, since I can't resist a shameless plug, Gopher protocol support will be > disappearing from Mozilla starting with Firefox 4.0/SeaMonkey 2.1. Maintain > legacy protocols today! It works with Firefox 3.0 on up and the Fx 4.0 beta. > SeaMonkey version coming soon. > > https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/7685/ > There's no shame in that plug, it's quite useful. Somewhat OT, but, speaking of, is there something like wget that works on gopher? :) From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Jul 22 10:09:00 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2010 08:09:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: gopher access from modern systems was Re: Coherent 3.1.0... In-Reply-To: <4C485DA7.1080605@arachelian.com> from Ray Arachelian at "Jul 22, 10 11:03:03 am" Message-ID: <201007221509.o6MF90r2006098@floodgap.com> > > > > Also, since I can't resist a shameless plug, Gopher protocol support will be > > disappearing from Mozilla starting with Firefox 4.0/SeaMonkey 2.1. Maintain > > legacy protocols today! It works with Firefox 3.0 on up and the Fx 4.0 beta. > > SeaMonkey version coming soon. > > > > https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/7685/ > > There's no shame in that plug, it's quite useful. Somewhat OT, but, > speaking of, is there something like wget that works on gopher? :) One of my recurrent plans is to sneak gopher support back into cURL, and there is interest from their maintainers. In the meantime, gopher is so simple that something like this will suffice. For arbitrary URL gopher://host/Qpath such as gopher://telefisk.org/00/coherent/ls-lR drop the Q (the itemtype) and include the rest of the path. echo '0/coherent/ls-lR' | nc telefisk.org 70 > ls-lR.txt If the item type is not doubled, such as gopher://gopher.floodgap.com/0/gopher/wbgopher then you can just do echo '/gopher/wbgopher' | nc gopher.floodgap.com 70 > wbgopher.txt And, of course, Lynx does do gopher: lynx -source gopher://gopher.floodgap.com/0/gopher/wbgopher -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- "I'd love to go out with you, but I'll be at the opening of my garage door." From rborsuk at colourfull.com Thu Jul 22 10:14:00 2010 From: rborsuk at colourfull.com (Robert Borsuk) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2010 11:14:00 -0400 Subject: MacPaint and QuickDraw source code released In-Reply-To: <4C484B4A.4070709@heeltoe.com> References: <4C45FFB1.90801@arachelian.com> (sfid-20100720_170128_874916_1226A345) <4C484B4A.4070709@heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <922E65C1-EA96-4027-BFDE-35439E6C21DF@colourfull.com> On Jul 22, 2010, at 9:44 AM, Brad Parker wrote: > I would guess, given the dates on the files (1983) that they did the work on a Lisa. Even in > 1984 I had to use a Lisa to build code. I can't remember what tools were used, but > there was an editor, an assembler and a resource compiler which put it all together. We > did a lot of "sneaker net" with floppies. And we learned to swear at the 5mb profile disk > drives. > > I've never used Think Pascal, but I did use Think C (LightSpeed C) a lot. I wonder if you could port it > to Think Pascal... I would think you could. Or maybe it would "just build" using MPW. I doubt it, > however. MPW and the Lisa didn't share much as I recall. > > -brad I had been thinking about this. I was thinking that MPW was a 68020 and greater tool and that the original compiler came from Motorola or somebody big like that. Any thoughts? Has anyone just asked Bill Atkinson? Rob Rob Borsuk rborsuk at colourfull.com From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Jul 22 10:28:17 2010 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2010 11:28:17 -0400 Subject: Coherent 3.1.0... In-Reply-To: <201007221452.o6MEqOpZ012594@floodgap.com> References: <201007221452.o6MEqOpZ012594@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <4C486391.8050700@gmail.com> Cameron Kaiser wrote: > SeaMonkey version coming soon. *waiting with bated breath* Peace... Sridhar From roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk Thu Jul 22 11:46:15 2010 From: roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk (Roger Holmes) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2010 17:46:15 +0100 Subject: recovering cartridge tapes (was: Tek fiches found!) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <116B2160-8791-4D81-8FC4-20D9B871AAB1@microspot.co.uk> On 21 Jul 2010, at 22:22, cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > Message: 23 > From: Richard > > > In article <4C46A57E.15148.5E8BCB at cclist.sydex.com>, > "Chuck Guzis" writes: > >> [...] Almost all cartridge DC- >> style tapes are recorded "serpentine" style--i.e. start in one >> direction, shift the head, reverse, etc... > > This is news to me. Every cartridge tape I've ever used recorded data > to the end and then stopped. I don't recall seeing any mechanism for > shifting the tape head in HP264x terminals with DC100 cartridges nor > in Tektronix 4051 terminals with DC300 cartridges. > >> So the spooling scheme had better work. I'm not aware of any 32- >> channel (for example) QIC heads. > > QIC tapes are something different from DC300 and DC100 tapes. I always though QIC was an abbreviation for Quarter Inch Cassette. I'm fairly sure I've used DC300s and they were cassettes full of quarter inch tape with a constant peripheral speed drive band inside so no need for variable speed spool motors. Roger Holmes From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jul 22 12:03:48 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2010 10:03:48 -0700 Subject: recovering cartridge tapes (was: Tek fiches found!) In-Reply-To: References: >, Message-ID: <4C481784.32520.483D0A@cclist.sydex.com> On 22 Jul 2010 at 8:29, Richard wrote: > Your discussion seems to relate to DC600 mechanisms, not to the DC100 > or DC500 mechanisms that I have seen in my equipment. DC500? That's one I've never run across. Could be. The IBM 5100 is the first system I'm aware of that used a DC300 tape. It wasn't serpentine and was hugely wasteful of the tape, recording one of two tracks or the other, but not both at the same time. FWIW, a friend with a 5100 reports that a DC600A tape works well in his 5100 and gets more capacity. Later DC300 drives were serpentine, for example, the early tape drives for the PS/2 series took DC300XLP tapes. I think this was also the case for the 6157 drive for the RT as well. How close in construction are the DC100 and the DC1000 minicartridge? --Chuck From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Jul 22 12:48:25 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2010 13:48:25 -0400 Subject: Coherent 3.1.0... In-Reply-To: <4C47B0DF.2010309@oldskool.org> References: <70839D3C058.000009CFn0body.h0me@inbox.com> <4C47917B.3040001@neurotica.com> <4C47B0DF.2010309@oldskool.org> Message-ID: On 7/21/10, Jim Leonard wrote: > I'm a former employee ("Jim Leonard" in the big credits page in the > front of the manual). Nice. I always find it interesting to learn what present list members were up to in former lives. > That version of Coherent runs on 286s with minimum 640KB and up to 16MB > of RAM. It will only work with MFM, RLL, and SCSI controllers, so be > sure to read the documentation before wondering why it doesn't see your > IDE drive. I'm guessing that it only supports certain MFM controllers, not the WD 1003 then? If I were to take this for a spin, I could probably come up with an Adaptec 1542A (guessing it won't work with a 1542C). > It's been 18 years since I provided technical support, so don't hold > your breath ;-) Heh... so far, nobody has asked me for COMBOARD support (the last paying customer rolled off support in Jan 1995) but I have picked up a COMBOARD or two from list members (we made 20X as many Unibus boards as Qbus boards, so I'm always interested if someone has a Qbus COMBOARD to send back home - I don't have many). -ethan From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jul 22 12:38:25 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2010 18:38:25 +0100 (BST) Subject: recovering cartridge tapes (was: Tek fiches found!) In-Reply-To: from "Richard" at Jul 21, 10 02:54:46 pm Message-ID: > > > In article <4C46A57E.15148.5E8BCB at cclist.sydex.com>, > "Chuck Guzis" writes: > > > [...] Almost all cartridge DC- > > style tapes are recorded "serpentine" style--i.e. start in one > > direction, shift the head, reverse, etc... > > This is news to me. Every cartridge tape I've ever used recorded data > to the end and then stopped. I don't recall seeing any mechanism for Many QIC types (including DC300s) used serpentine recording. I don't think the smalelr tapes used, for example, in the HP terminals, HP 98x5, HP80-seires, DEC TU58, etc did. But later QIC drives using similar tapes probably did use serpentine recording. > shifting the tape head in HP264x terminals with DC100 cartridges nor > in Tektronix 4051 terminals with DC300 cartridges. > > > So the spooling scheme had better work. I'm not aware of any 32- > > channel (for example) QIC heads. > > QIC tapes are something different from DC300 and DC100 tapes. Eh? DC300 tapes were used for QIC11, etc recording .And it was serpentine. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jul 22 12:41:13 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2010 18:41:13 +0100 (BST) Subject: Looking for PDP8/A RL01 boot proms. In-Reply-To: from "Ethan Dicks" at Jul 21, 10 05:10:02 pm Message-ID: > >> You'll need to burn the images into 82s126 chips... > > Looks like the 74S387 is another cross. Jameco has them for $4 each. Most of these bipolar PROMs had many 'crosses', but for reading only. The programming methods are manufacturer-specific. Once programmed, the chips behave identically, so the PDP8/a (or watherver) doesn't care. So make sure whatever programmer you use can program the particular chip you are getting, and not just one that's a cross for it. Then you shoupd have no problems. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jul 22 12:44:32 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2010 18:44:32 +0100 (BST) Subject: recovering cartridge tapes (was: Tek fiches found!) In-Reply-To: from "Richard" at Jul 21, 10 04:16:05 pm Message-ID: > > > QIC tapes are something different from DC300 and DC100 tapes. > > > > Really? DC300 = quarter-inch tape, 300 feet, written by lots of > > "QIC" 4 and 9 track drives in serpentine fashion, including the IBM > > 6157. My old 3M catalog lists it as a quarter-inch tape. I've got > > one here; fits in a standard-sized QIC drive and works like any other > > QIC cart (e.g. DC600A). > > DC600 != DC300 != DC100 Correct, but so what? Perhaps you could tell me what my Archive Sidewinder drive acyually is, then. It takes DC300 tapes according to everything I've read, it records a QIC-11 format using 4 traces in a serpentine fashion. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jul 22 12:49:52 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2010 18:49:52 +0100 (BST) Subject: Serial interfaces In-Reply-To: from "Liam Proven" at Jul 22, 10 00:54:51 am Message-ID: > > On 21 July 2010 00:28, John Foust wrote: > > At 11:16 AM 7/20/2010, Liam Proven wrote: > >>All fair points, but then, who ever used serial ports to connect mass > >>storage? (I know there was a serial port hard disk for the first ever > >>Mac, but that was from complete lack of any alternative.) > > > > I can think of the Commodore 64- 1541 drive > > Um, that wasn't any relative of RS422, RS423, RS232 or anything akin No, but it most certainly was a bit-serial interface. As, for that matter, is USB. And HPIL (which was used for at least one mass storage device, and is logically related to a bit-serial version of HPIB). If you mean a serial interface using RS232 levels, then at least on this list it's best to say so. Do you insist that it's asynchronous, or are synchonous RS232 interfaces included (IIRC the RML480Z used one for its floppy disk system) > to it, was it? I thought it was some serialised variant of an IEEE > interface, as used on the PET machines... > > > and the external floppy drive > > for the Tandy Model 100. > > This one I didn't know about, but Tandy machines were never very big > this side of the Atlantic. /Way/ too expensive for most Brits. Err, considering there was a shop selling them on just about every high street, I asusme some people (other than me) actually bought them. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jul 22 12:58:25 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2010 18:58:25 +0100 (BST) Subject: Serial interfaces In-Reply-To: from "Liam Proven" at Jul 22, 10 00:56:51 am Message-ID: > > then off th rtop > > of my head, Epson did (the RS232-interfacd drive units for the HX20/PX > > series of laptops). Resarch Machines did (disk unit for the 480Z, > > although that was a synchonous RS232 interface). Tandy/Radio Shcack > > (portable disk drive for the M100 etc). DEC did (TU58 tape cartridge > > drive). There must be many others. > > Remarkable. I never knew. Thanks for the education. I think most of those have been discussed on this list at some point :-) > > Was I correct at least inasmuch as the Mac being the only hard disk interfa= > ce? IIt's the only one I can think of off the top of my head, but I would hate to be dogmatic. However, at the time, hard disks were very expensive, and were thus only really used for staring large amounts of data which had to be accessible quickly (if the files were small enoguh to fit on floppies, just change floppies as needed :-)). And the throughput of an RS232 interface, even when set to 38400 baud (which was the fastest normally used for asynchonous transfers at the time) was not really high enough. So I would be slightly suprised if many RS232-interfaced hard disk units were made at that time. > I'm not saying it's superior /per se/; it's from a totally different > technology generation. I'm merely saying that I like USB and find it a > pleasure to work with, whereas I always found RS232 to be a PITA. No > more. As I said earlier, I am exactly the opposite. And I think it comes from the fact that you use machines (in general) as the manufacturer intended, while I trie to do all sorts of odd things with mine. I don't doubt that if you plug a USB memory stick, or a USB-interfaced hard drive, into a modern machine where the OS has drivers for USB mass storage devies, then it works fine. But to be fair that's not unique to USB. I've never had any problems uysing HP's HPIN hard disk units with HP computers that support them. I've enver had any problems plgging DEC serial terminals into a PSP11. It's when you want to do things that hte manufacturer didn't intend, or had never thoguth od, that the 'fun' starts. And USB makes things harder than RE232 if you are doing things like that. A lot harder. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jul 22 13:05:27 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2010 19:05:27 +0100 (BST) Subject: recovering cartridge tapes (was: Tek fiches found!) In-Reply-To: <116B2160-8791-4D81-8FC4-20D9B871AAB1@microspot.co.uk> from "Roger Holmes" at Jul 22, 10 05:46:15 pm Message-ID: > I always though QIC was an abbreviation for Quarter Inch Cassette. I'm = I heard 'Quarter Inch Cartridge', but it makes little difference. > fairly sure I've used DC300s and they were cassettes full of quarter = > inch tape with a constant peripheral speed drive band inside so no need = > for variable speed spool motors. The ones I use on my PERQ (with an Archive Sidewider QIC11 drive) certainly are... -tony From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Jul 22 13:13:02 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2010 14:13:02 -0400 Subject: Looking for PDP8/A RL01 boot proms. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 7/22/10, Tony Duell wrote: >> >> You'll need to burn the images into 82s126 chips... >> >> Looks like the 74S387 is another cross. Jameco has them for $4 each. > > Most of these bipolar PROMs had many 'crosses', but for reading only. The > programming methods are manufacturer-specific. Once programmed, the chips > behave identically, so the PDP8/a (or watherver) doesn't care. All true. I was focusing on what could be plugged into a KM8A. I haven't personally checked my old programmers to see which variants they can burn, but we used to blow out hundreds of 6309s, so while I'd be confident I have the equipment to burn 6301s, I'd have to check on the 74S387s. -ethan From oltmansg at bellsouth.net Thu Jul 22 14:18:41 2010 From: oltmansg at bellsouth.net (geoffrey oltmans) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2010 12:18:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: gopher access from modern systems was Re: Coherent 3.1.0... In-Reply-To: <201007221509.o6MF90r2006098@floodgap.com> References: <201007221509.o6MF90r2006098@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <79674.62673.qm@web83902.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Please don't take this as flamebait, but is there much useful on gopher these days? The last time I remember using it was in the early 90's. ________________________________ From: Cameron Kaiser To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Sent: Thu, July 22, 2010 10:09:00 AM Subject: gopher access from modern systems was Re: Coherent 3.1.0... > > > > Also, since I can't resist a shameless plug, Gopher protocol support will be > > disappearing from Mozilla starting with Firefox 4.0/SeaMonkey 2.1. Maintain > > legacy protocols today! It works with Firefox 3.0 on up and the Fx 4.0 beta. > > SeaMonkey version coming soon. > > > > https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/7685/ > > There's no shame in that plug, it's quite useful. Somewhat OT, but, > speaking of, is there something like wget that works on gopher? :) One of my recurrent plans is to sneak gopher support back into cURL, and there is interest from their maintainers. In the meantime, gopher is so simple that something like this will suffice. For arbitrary URL gopher://host/Qpath such as gopher://telefisk.org/00/coherent/ls-lR drop the Q (the itemtype) and include the rest of the path. echo '0/coherent/ls-lR' | nc telefisk.org 70 > ls-lR.txt If the item type is not doubled, such as gopher://gopher.floodgap.com/0/gopher/wbgopher then you can just do echo '/gopher/wbgopher' | nc gopher.floodgap.com 70 > wbgopher.txt And, of course, Lynx does do gopher: lynx -source gopher://gopher.floodgap.com/0/gopher/wbgopher -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- "I'd love to go out with you, but I'll be at the opening of my garage door." From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Thu Jul 22 14:23:28 2010 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2010 21:23:28 +0200 Subject: dssi terminators 2pcs. Message-ID: <7A176CEB492F426A92DAF0499325A712@xp1800> If I remeber correct some one was asking for DEC dssi tewrminators. I found two in my toolbox, free for cost of posting (I'm in the Netherlands) -Rik From silent700 at gmail.com Thu Jul 22 14:28:50 2010 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2010 14:28:50 -0500 Subject: gopher access from modern systems was Re: Coherent 3.1.0... In-Reply-To: <79674.62673.qm@web83902.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <201007221509.o6MF90r2006098@floodgap.com> <79674.62673.qm@web83902.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Jul 22, 2010 at 2:18 PM, geoffrey oltmans wrote: > Please don't take this as flamebait, but is there much useful on gopher these > days? No. And? ;) From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Jul 22 14:29:55 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2010 12:29:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: gopher access from modern systems was Re: Coherent 3.1.0... In-Reply-To: <79674.62673.qm@web83902.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> from geoffrey oltmans at "Jul 22, 10 12:18:41 pm" Message-ID: <201007221929.o6MJTtl3005986@floodgap.com> > Please don't take this as flamebait, but is there much useful on gopher these > days? The last time I remember using it was in the early 90's. Besides quite a bit of file archives, which I think would be useful particularly to this group (I maintain personally a big collection of classic Mac software; Jacob has his Amiga and Coherent archives, and lots of other stuff), I use my own gopher server for fast access to news and weather articles that the server collects. No ads, simple text. Gopher is not very good at hypertext, but it is a lot better at collecting documents into coherent hierarchies. While FTP can do this too, it has more overhead and (if improperly configured) security impact, and HTTP doesn't do this natively (such things exist as machinations of the server) besides all the excess with HTTP's overhead. Sure, you could simulate such simplicity with a constrained HTTP implementation, but why bother when Gopher is already a very simple protocol and works well? Gopher is also very compelling on mobile devices, especially bandwidth and screen constrained, which is why I wrote a client for Android. There is also a J2ME client that runs on any phone that can run MIDlets. Plus, damn near anything can parse a gopher menu. It's almost as trivial a format as you get. Gopher's main deficiency is discoverability -- it's hard to navigate back from a terminal document into a menu without a lot of gyration. I'm trying to solve this on the client side without disturbing what is a refreshingly simple way to access a server. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Why, I'd horsewhip you if I had a horse! -- Groucho Marx ------------------- From oltmansg at bellsouth.net Thu Jul 22 14:32:20 2010 From: oltmansg at bellsouth.net (geoffrey oltmans) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2010 12:32:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: gopher access from modern systems was Re: Coherent 3.1.0... In-Reply-To: References: <201007221509.o6MF90r2006098@floodgap.com> <79674.62673.qm@web83902.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <68599.74286.qm@web83903.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> lol ________________________________ From: Jason T To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Sent: Thu, July 22, 2010 2:28:50 PM Subject: Re: gopher access from modern systems was Re: Coherent 3.1.0... On Thu, Jul 22, 2010 at 2:18 PM, geoffrey oltmans wrote: > Please don't take this as flamebait, but is there much useful on gopher these > days? No. And? ;) From RichA at vulcan.com Thu Jul 22 14:50:00 2010 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2010 12:50:00 -0700 Subject: Fanfold paper tape storage bins/trays Message-ID: Serious question: We have a number of paper tapes which have been stored in paper boxes for quite some time. I would like, if at all possible, to move these into the kind of storage containers in which many of our tapes already live. These are transparent stable plastic with a lid, divided into 8 sections of Just the Right Size(TM) to hold fanfold paper tape. There is probably no one who makes these any longer, but on the off chance that I am wrong about that, does anyone know (a) who might make these, or (b) what they are called, so that I can try to find them using one of the large search engines, or (c) have a supply of them stashed with which the current owner is willing to part? Thanks, Rich Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.PDPplanet.org/ http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From legalize at xmission.com Thu Jul 22 14:56:48 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2010 13:56:48 -0600 Subject: recovering cartridge tapes (was: Tek fiches found!) In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 22 Jul 2010 10:03:48 -0700. <4C481784.32520.483D0A@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: In article <4C481784.32520.483D0A at cclist.sydex.com>, "Chuck Guzis" writes: > On 22 Jul 2010 at 8:29, Richard wrote: > > > Your discussion seems to relate to DC600 mechanisms, not to the DC100 > > or DC500 mechanisms that I have seen in my equipment. > > DC500? That's one I've never run across. Typo. I meant DC300. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Thu Jul 22 15:09:47 2010 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2010 21:09:47 +0100 Subject: dssi terminators 2pcs. In-Reply-To: <7A176CEB492F426A92DAF0499325A712@xp1800> References: <7A176CEB492F426A92DAF0499325A712@xp1800> Message-ID: <00cc01cb29d9$d6b80fa0$84282ee0$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> That was probably me, I was looking for the type that plug into a HSD10, I have since bought one. Thanks Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Rik Bos > Sent: 22 July 2010 20:23 > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > Subject: dssi terminators 2pcs. > > If I remeber correct some one was asking for DEC dssi tewrminators. > I found two in my toolbox, free for cost of posting (I'm in the > Netherlands) > > -Rik > > > From philip at axeside.co.uk Thu Jul 22 11:58:13 2010 From: philip at axeside.co.uk (Philip Belben) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2010 17:58:13 +0100 Subject: recovering cartridge tapes (was: Tek fiches found! (was: Looking for In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C4878A5.3010605@axeside.co.uk> > IRIC the Tekky 405x series didn't use any of the standard encodings, > though. They had a 2 coil head that read/wrote 2 tracks at the same time. > A pulse on one track was a '0' bit,a pusle on the other track was a '1'. > Whether simultaneous pulses on both tracks were used as some kind of > marker I don;t know, many otehr similar systems did use that. It was indeed. Pulse on one track = 1, pulse on other track = 0, pulse on both tracks = marker. The pulses on each track were alternately positive- and negative-going to minimise the dc component. I have the spec somewhere. Probably in one of my Tek service manuals. Philip. From chrise at pobox.com Thu Jul 22 13:46:33 2010 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2010 13:46:33 -0500 Subject: Serial interfaces (was Re: Any former Psion 5 owners out there?) In-Reply-To: References: <4C476671.4090806@brouhaha.com> <20100722110549.GL8300@n0jcf.net> <4C485552.7030102@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20100722184633.GB31823@n0jcf.net> On Thursday (07/22/2010 at 10:44AM -0400), Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 7/22/10, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > >> I think you guys are missing all the real breakthroughs in USB > >> technology, > >> > > > > Some synopses might help, for those of us who can't afford the time to > > sit through three Youtube videos. > > Or who don't want to wait for them to trickle in at 56Kbps... Oh sorry. You really aren't missing anything. Just trying to be funny. They are videos of more useless junk powered by USB. One is a humping dog, one is a pole dancer and one is a French wine tap which claims that you can order wine via the Internet and then it dispenses it via this USB spigot. I worked for years in the multi-port serial card business at both Digiboard and Comtrol and USB was really a joke to us all in the beginning and so I have amassed a collection of ads, videos and other puns on the "killer USB apps" such as naked pole dancers. Chris -- Chris Elmquist From richard.cini at wellsfargo.com Thu Jul 22 14:46:41 2010 From: richard.cini at wellsfargo.com (Cini, Richard) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2010 15:46:41 -0400 Subject: Fw: MacPaint and QuickDraw source code released Message-ID: <1B56292B217A1C408A0F6283DAD79D440E03DE32@MSBLDA0026I001.cibna.msds.wachovia.net> If it was developed on the Lisa, would they have used LisaPascal? There's a Lisa emulator out there -- I might play with it this weekend and see if it works. ------Original Message------ From: Cameron Kaiser Sender: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org To: CCTalk ReplyTo: CCTalk Subject: Re: MacPaint and QuickDraw source code released Sent: Jul 22, 2010 11:02 AM > I've never used Think Pascal, but I did use Think C (LightSpeed C) a > lot. I wonder if you could port it to Think Pascal... I would think you > could. Or maybe it would "just build" using MPW. Glancing cursorily, I think MPW would have a fit. The .rsrc file also needs to be turned into a proper resource fork. My instinct would be to try to pre-process it. I agree THINK Pascal would be the logical, closest first target. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- The moon may be smaller than the Earth, but it's farther away. ------------- Rich ----------------------------- Richard A. Cini, Jr. Managing Director Wells Fargo Capital Finance New York, NY 10017 (P) (212)-545-4402 -------------------------- Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless Handheld This email is subject to a disclaimer, please click on the following link or cut and paste the link into the address bar of your browser. https://www.wellsfargo.com/com/disclaimer/uswfbnap From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Jul 22 16:18:29 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2010 14:18:29 -0700 Subject: MacPaint and QuickDraw source code released In-Reply-To: <922E65C1-EA96-4027-BFDE-35439E6C21DF@colourfull.com> References: <4C45FFB1.90801@arachelian.com> (sfid-20100720_170128_874916_1226A345) <4C484B4A.4070709@heeltoe.com> <922E65C1-EA96-4027-BFDE-35439E6C21DF@colourfull.com> Message-ID: <4C48B5A5.9010906@brouhaha.com> Robert Borsuk wrote: > I had been thinking about this. I was thinking that MPW was a 68020 and greater tool and that the original compiler came from Motorola or somebody big like that. Any thoughts? Has anyone just asked Bill Atkinson? > > It's possible that late releases of MPW might have needed a 68020, but for a long time it didn't. AFAICT, Bill Atkinson didn't have anything to do with compilers for MPW, nor did he use those for developing MacPaint, since they didn't exist yet. He did all the development on the Lisa. Even after the Mac was released, for a while there was no good development environment that ran natively. Eric From legalize at xmission.com Thu Jul 22 16:20:47 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2010 15:20:47 -0600 Subject: recovering cartridge tapes (was: Tek fiches found! (was: Looking for In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 22 Jul 2010 17:58:13 +0100. <4C4878A5.3010605@axeside.co.uk> Message-ID: In article <4C4878A5.3010605 at axeside.co.uk>, Philip Belben writes: > I have the spec somewhere. Probably in one of my Tek service manuals. Making that available would be most appreciated! Is it already on bitsavers somewhere? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From lproven at gmail.com Thu Jul 22 16:34:52 2010 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2010 22:34:52 +0100 Subject: Serial interfaces (was Re: Any former Psion 5 owners out there?) In-Reply-To: <20100722184633.GB31823@n0jcf.net> References: <4C476671.4090806@brouhaha.com> <20100722110549.GL8300@n0jcf.net> <4C485552.7030102@gmail.com> <20100722184633.GB31823@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: On 22 July 2010 19:46, Chris Elmquist wrote: > I worked for years in the multi-port serial card business at both > Digiboard and Comtrol and USB was really a joke to us all in the beginning > and so I have amassed a collection of ads, videos and other puns on the > "killer USB apps" such as naked pole dancers. Sounds a bit like an instance of ?First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win.? -- Liam Proven ? Profile & links: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Jul 22 17:30:58 2010 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2010 15:30:58 -0700 Subject: recovering cartridge tapes (was: Tek fiches found! (was: Looking for In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C48C6A2.2040209@bitsavers.org> On 7/22/10 2:20 PM, Richard wrote: > Is it already on bitsavers somewhere? I should be in the 405x service manual. I'll see about getting the standalone GPIB drive manual up if it isn't already there. Getting data off of a 4050 cart is on my list of things to do. I have a pile of them, as well as someone else in the valley. From trixter at oldskool.org Thu Jul 22 21:14:17 2010 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2010 21:14:17 -0500 Subject: Coherent 3.1.0... In-Reply-To: References: <70839D3C058.000009CFn0body.h0me@inbox.com> <4C47917B.3040001@neurotica.com> <4C47B0DF.2010309@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <4C48FAF9.6040005@oldskool.org> On 7/22/2010 12:48 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > If I were to take this for a spin, I could probably come up with an > Adaptec 1542A (guessing it won't work with a 1542C). 1542C was preferred, actually. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Thu Jul 22 21:16:00 2010 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2010 21:16:00 -0500 Subject: Coherent 3.1.0... In-Reply-To: <4C4852FD.2010907@arachelian.com> References: <70839D3C058.000009CFn0body.h0me@inbox.com> <4C47917B.3040001@neurotica.com> <4C4852FD.2010907@arachelian.com> Message-ID: <4C48FB60.1020908@oldskool.org> I'm amazed someone scanned that in -- I wonder if Fred Butzen is around and has the original latex and can convert it into pdf... On 7/22/2010 9:17 AM, Ray Arachelian wrote: > On 07/21/2010 08:31 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: >> An excellent score, congrats! Any chance you'll be making disk images? >> >> > I think I have the 3.5" version of this, not sure what version. Not > sure if this is the big huge "phonebook" manual, or for which version, > but there's a manual here: http://www.tenox.tc/docs/ > > -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Thu Jul 22 21:17:11 2010 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2010 21:17:11 -0500 Subject: Coherent 3.1.0... In-Reply-To: References: , , <4C47B116.6070209@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <4C48FBA7.4080407@oldskool.org> On 7/21/2010 10:01 PM, Dan Gahlinger wrote: > > vetusware seems to have 4.2.10 or is that something else? That's it, but 4.2.13 or higher is the only version to work with IDE drives so that's the one to look for if you can find it. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From snhirsch at gmail.com Thu Jul 22 16:44:35 2010 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2010 17:44:35 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Coherent 3.1.0... In-Reply-To: <201007221452.o6MEqOpZ012594@floodgap.com> References: <201007221452.o6MEqOpZ012594@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 22 Jul 2010, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >>> I happen to have a small collection of coherent on my gopher site, >>> gopher://telefisk.org/coherent >> >> Either my firefox is acting up or that url has issues. I get: >> >> 0'oherent' does not exist error.host 1 > > Try > > gopher://telefisk.org/1/coherent > How does one download from that site? Firefox 3.1 can show me the contents but fails to download anything. Steve -- From rachael at telefisk.org Fri Jul 23 02:12:30 2010 From: rachael at telefisk.org (Jacob Dahl Pind) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2010 09:12:30 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Coherent 3.1.0... In-Reply-To: References: <201007221452.o6MEqOpZ012594@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 22 Jul 2010, Steven Hirsch wrote: > On Thu, 22 Jul 2010, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > >>>> I happen to have a small collection of coherent on my gopher site, >>>> gopher://telefisk.org/coherent >>> >>> Either my firefox is acting up or that url has issues. I get: >>> >>> 0'oherent' does not exist error.host 1 >> >> Try >> >> gopher://telefisk.org/1/coherent >> > > How does one download from that site? Firefox 3.1 can show me the contents > but fails to download anything. > > Steve > > > -- > > Have you installed Cameron's excellent overbite extension to firefox ? I belive the code the code for gopher support that the older firefox browser came with had multiple issues with certain mime types it didnt except to find over gopher, and was one of the reasons why Cameron developed that plugin in the firstplace. regards -- Jacob Dahl Pind | telefisk.org | fidonet 2:237/38.8 From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Fri Jul 23 02:25:51 2010 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2010 09:25:51 +0200 Subject: Serial interfaces (was Re: Any former Psion 5 owners out there?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20100723092551.06c8090c.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Tue, 20 Jul 2010 10:15:46 -0400 Ethan Dicks wrote: > I really do not like USB. Seconded. > It takes hundreds of cycles and more to > move a simple message, it's a host-based, not bi-directional design, > and it's only available on somewhat newish kit. And: Many USB devices are quirky. E.g. I can't get a break out of my USB-RS232 adapters. The USB host bridge in my PeeCee has a bug that causes interrupt loops when a USB hub is connected and a device from the hub is disconnected. The USB connectors are cheap shitt. I often get contact problems with USB A connectors. After all: USB originates from intel. Did we ever get somthing well and proper designed and engineered from intel? -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Jul 23 08:06:31 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2010 06:06:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Coherent 3.1.0... In-Reply-To: from Steven Hirsch at "Jul 22, 10 05:44:35 pm" Message-ID: <201007231306.o6ND6VLZ018578@floodgap.com> > > gopher://telefisk.org/1/coherent > > How does one download from that site? Firefox 3.1 can show me the > contents but fails to download anything. Really? No problem with Fx 3.6 (either with the OverbiteFF extension or natively), or Camino 2.0. What message do you see? -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- I can't complain, but sometimes I still do. -- Joe Walsh ------------------- From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Jul 23 08:12:00 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2010 06:12:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Coherent 3.1.0... In-Reply-To: from Jacob Dahl Pind at "Jul 23, 10 09:12:30 am" Message-ID: <201007231312.o6NDC0xl011940@floodgap.com> > > > gopher://telefisk.org/1/coherent > > > > > > > How does one download from that site? Firefox 3.1 can show me the contents > > but fails to download anything. > > Have you installed Cameron's excellent overbite extension to firefox ? I > belive the code the code for gopher support that the older firefox browser > came with had multiple issues with certain mime types it didnt except to > find over gopher, and was one of the reasons why Cameron developed that > plugin in the firstplace. Actually, I do see a couple things. Under base/, the ddk32.dd.gz file is coming over as itype 0, which might have been what confused Firefox (Overbite wants to treat it as text/plain), though it doesn't look like it's a gzip file either. Obviously, you can always download them directly by right-click and Save As. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Po-Ching Lives! ------------------------------------------------------------ From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Jul 23 09:09:30 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2010 10:09:30 -0400 Subject: Adaptec SCSI (was Re: Coherent 3.1.0...) Message-ID: On 7/22/10, Jim Leonard wrote: > On 7/22/2010 12:48 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> If I were to take this for a spin, I could probably come up with an >> Adaptec 1542A (guessing it won't work with a 1542C). > > 1542C was preferred, actually. Excellent. For an ISA card, it's not that uncommon. I bought one when they were brand new and really liked it (I think I was upgrading from a 1542B at the time). The BIOS-accessible formatter and surface tester was really, really handy. -ethan From dkelvey at hotmail.com Fri Jul 23 10:21:58 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2010 08:21:58 -0700 Subject: Swyft computer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi For those that might be interested, there is a Swyft computer in ebay. This was the prototype for the Canon Cat. I know the fellow that is selling it and he was working for Information Appliances when they were doing the development of the Cat. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ The New Busy think 9 to 5 is a cute idea. Combine multiple calendars with Hotmail. http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?tile=multicalendar&ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_5 From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Jul 23 11:44:45 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2010 12:44:45 -0400 Subject: Adaptec SCSI (was Re: Coherent 3.1.0...) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C49C6FD.6040602@neurotica.com> On 7/23/10 10:09 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 7/22/10, Jim Leonard wrote: >> On 7/22/2010 12:48 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >>> If I were to take this for a spin, I could probably come up with an >>> Adaptec 1542A (guessing it won't work with a 1542C). >> >> 1542C was preferred, actually. > > Excellent. For an ISA card, it's not that uncommon. I bought one > when they were brand new and really liked it (I think I was upgrading > from a 1542B at the time). The BIOS-accessible formatter and surface > tester was really, really handy. +1...The 1542B/C were both really nice cards. I saved up and bought one (a 'B') when they were current, I think it cost me something obscene like $300. I also rather like the Always IN-2000 host adapter. It was screaming fast. I used both (not simultaneously ;)) with Maxtor XT-4380 drives, and a Micropolis drive whose model number escapes me, but it was 5.25" FH SCSI 150MB. I think it was sort of a SCSI version of their venerable 1355 ESDI drive. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From rachael at telefisk.org Fri Jul 23 13:05:28 2010 From: rachael at telefisk.org (Jacob Dahl Pind) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2010 20:05:28 +0200 Subject: Coherent 3.1.0... In-Reply-To: References: <201007221452.o6MEqOpZ012594@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <4C49D9E8.4060901@telefisk.org> On 07/22/2010 11:44 PM, Steven Hirsch wrote: > On Thu, 22 Jul 2010, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > >>>> I happen to have a small collection of coherent on my gopher site, >>>> gopher://telefisk.org/coherent >>> >>> Either my firefox is acting up or that url has issues. I get: >>> >>> 0'oherent' does not exist error.host 1 >> >> Try >> >> gopher://telefisk.org/1/coherent >> > > How does one download from that site? Firefox 3.1 can show me the > contents but fails to download anything. > > Steve > > Have just check the mime settings in the gopherd, and it should delive .dd files as a x-app type, and I found all the missing files primary .Z ones, everything should be back again like before my little drive crash. Sources16/ is empty and has always been have never managed to find that directory populated on any ftp that had coherent. Regards Jacob Pind From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jul 23 13:28:17 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2010 19:28:17 +0100 (BST) Subject: recovering cartridge tapes (was: Tek fiches found! (was: Looking In-Reply-To: <4C4878A5.3010605@axeside.co.uk> from "Philip Belben" at Jul 22, 10 05:58:13 pm Message-ID: > > > IRIC the Tekky 405x series didn't use any of the standard encodings, > > though. They had a 2 coil head that read/wrote 2 tracks at the same time. > > A pulse on one track was a '0' bit,a pusle on the other track was a '1'. > > Whether simultaneous pulses on both tracks were used as some kind of > > marker I don;t know, many otehr similar systems did use that. > > It was indeed. Pulse on one track = 1, pulse on other track = 0, pulse > on both tracks = marker. The pulses on each track were alternately > positive- and negative-going to minimise the dc component. That makes sense. I should probably have said 'flux transition' rather than 'pulse'. FWIW, the HP9830 'calculator' uses a similar encoding scheme on compact cassettes (driven by the spools only, there is no capstan and pinch roller, but since this is a self-clocking scheme, it doesn't matter that the tape speed isn't consant). The HP9865 cassette drive and I assume the HP9821 do the same thing. As do the handheld calcualtor magnetic card readers (HP65/HP67/HP97/HP41). The desktop magneitc card systems (HP9100/9810/9820) do not, though. > > I have the spec somewhere. Probably in one of my Tek service manuals. How detailed a spec? Is there enough to understand the cotnents of a tape at the file level? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jul 23 13:34:38 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2010 19:34:38 +0100 (BST) Subject: Serial interfaces (was Re: Any former Psion 5 owners out there?) In-Reply-To: <20100723092551.06c8090c.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> from "Jochen Kunz" at Jul 23, 10 09:25:51 am Message-ID: > > On Tue, 20 Jul 2010 10:15:46 -0400 > Ethan Dicks wrote: > > > I really do not like USB. > Seconded. My views on this aare well-known my now... > > > It takes hundreds of cycles and more to > > move a simple message, it's a host-based, not bi-directional design, > > and it's only available on somewhat newish kit. > And: Many USB devices are quirky. E.g. I can't get a break out of my > USB-RS232 adapters. The USB host bridge in my PeeCee has a bug that Just out of curiousity, do the USB-parallel adapters support all the low-level bit-twiddling that you can do on a real PC printer port? Can you treat them as 12 digital outputs and 5 inputs? > causes interrupt loops when a USB hub is connected and a device from > the hub is disconnected. The USB connectors are cheap shitt. I often > get contact problems with USB A connectors. > > After all: USB originates from intel. Did we ever get somthing well and > proper designed and engineered from intel? Hmm.. I suppsoe the 1103 DRAM was pretty good for the time (even though the logic levels were painful, it was the first 1K bit device). But since then... Heck they are the only company to make a pig's breakfast of designing a parallel interface chip.... -tony From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Jul 23 13:51:15 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2010 14:51:15 -0400 Subject: Serial interfaces (was Re: Any former Psion 5 owners out there?) In-Reply-To: References: <20100723092551.06c8090c.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: On 7/23/10, Tony Duell wrote: >> On Tue, 20 Jul 2010 10:15:46 -0400 >> Ethan Dicks wrote: >> > It takes hundreds of cycles and more to >> > move a simple message, it's a host-based, not bi-directional design, >> > and it's only available on somewhat newish kit. > > Just out of curiousity, do the USB-parallel adapters support all the > low-level bit-twiddling that you can do on a real PC printer port? Can > you treat them as 12 digital outputs and 5 inputs? Not as far as I can tell - they are printer interfaces, not GPIO. I have never considered them a replacement for a real parallel port, but I didn't bring them up because the OP was comparing RS-232 (and stop bits, parity, baud rate, handshaking, etc) vs USB attached devices. -ethan From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jul 23 14:16:01 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2010 20:16:01 +0100 (BST) Subject: Serial interfaces (was Re: Any former Psion 5 owners out there?) In-Reply-To: from "Ethan Dicks" at Jul 23, 10 02:51:15 pm Message-ID: > > Just out of curiousity, do the USB-parallel adapters support all the > > low-level bit-twiddling that you can do on a real PC printer port? Can > > you treat them as 12 digital outputs and 5 inputs? > > Not as far as I can tell - they are printer interfaces, not GPIO. I > have never considered them a replacement for a real parallel port, but I see.... So considering all the things I (and others) have made that link to PC parallel ports and which _don't_ use the centronics protocol,I can think of yet another reason not to downgrade to a modern PC. > I didn't bring them up because the OP was comparing RS-232 (and stop Sure... It's called topic-drift :-) > bits, parity, baud rate, handshaking, etc) vs USB attached devices. Actually, do the USB-RS232 adapters (I refuse ot say USB-serial, since there are many, many serial interfaces, including USB itself) allow you to do all you can do with aa PC Async port? Like setting odd baud rates? Or 5 bit mode (yes, I do sometimes want to talk to ta Creed 7) -tony From silent700 at gmail.com Fri Jul 23 14:29:35 2010 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2010 14:29:35 -0500 Subject: TEAC FD-55GFR and Deviceside Message-ID: Last night I finally had time to assemble my Deviceside USB->5.25" floppy interface. I decided to do it all slick-like and put the drive in the shell of an old Sony USB CDRW. I have two examples of the TEAC FD-55GFR drive laying around, which is the drive recommended on the developer's site. I attached one to the ext drive carrier and powered on. The drive head started seeking back and forth, not the full travel of the disk, maybe 1/4 of it. It made a loud, steady click and flashed the panel light of the bay, as if it was drawing too much power from the little PSU. However, I went ahead and hooked it up and read disks (DOS 1.2mb, AppleDOS and C64 1541) to images. I haven't fully tested the images yet but they didn't error out during the read. The DOS one was mountable in WinImage, the C64 one in CCS64 (don't have an Apple II em handy.) Still bothered by the noise, I attached a Panasonic JU-475-4 drive instead. It was quiet, no blinking light. I imaged the same disks with that drive and that appeared to work fine, too. Does anyone know the FD-55GFR well? It seems to have an auto-sense mech of some kind, and one of the two I have has a spring-eject (the other may have had it too but the spring is missing?) It seems likely that it would click continuously, searching for a disk. Maybe this is normal behavior for this drive and it seems loud because it's open? It does the head-seek continuously whether there is a disk inserted or not, lever-down or not. This seems bad to have happening on top of the exposed disk surface. Or, again, maybe it's normal for this drive? The easy solution is go with the Panasonic and not worry about it. But I'd like to stick to the developer's recommended drive unless I can be sure the Panasonic is 100% compatible too. -j -- silent700.blogspot.com Retrocomputing and collecting in the Chicago area: http://chiclassiccomp.org From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Jul 23 14:32:15 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2010 15:32:15 -0400 Subject: Serial interfaces (was Re: Any former Psion 5 owners out there?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C49EE3F.6010906@neurotica.com> On 7/23/10 3:16 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >>> Just out of curiousity, do the USB-parallel adapters support all the >>> low-level bit-twiddling that you can do on a real PC printer port? Can >>> you treat them as 12 digital outputs and 5 inputs? >> >> Not as far as I can tell - they are printer interfaces, not GPIO. I >> have never considered them a replacement for a real parallel port, but > > I see.... So considering all the things I (and others) have made that > link to PC parallel ports and which _don't_ use the centronics protocol,I > can think of yet another reason not to downgrade to a modern PC. Well, as with lots of other things, there are ways around this. One of the FTDI chips can easily be used for digital bit-twiddling, and there's at least one free library out there with great support for such twiddling. Here's a good (brief) description of it, along with a $15.00 breakout board that's got two rows of 0.1" pins on each side and a USB connector on the end: http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/news.php?id=386 This is really good stuff, give it a shot. I'm all for poo-pooing new stuff when it really isn't useful for anything real, but poo-pooing just for the sake of poo-pooing is bogus. Seriously. > Actually, do the USB-RS232 adapters (I refuse ot say USB-serial, since > there are many, many serial interfaces, including USB itself) allow you > to do all you can do with aa PC Async port? Like setting odd baud rates? > Or 5 bit mode (yes, I do sometimes want to talk to ta Creed 7) Some support more than others. For example, USB<->serial adapters based on the Prolific PL-2303 chipsets (apparently) cannot generate a break, while my Keyspan units can. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Jul 23 14:59:03 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2010 15:59:03 -0400 Subject: TEAC FD-55GFR and Deviceside In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 7/23/10, Jason T wrote: > Last night I finally had time to assemble my Deviceside USB->5.25" > floppy interface.... Does anyone know the FD-55GFR well? Well enough to know it needs jumpers relocated when it's moved from a PC controller to an RQDX3, but beyond that, my experience with configuring it is limited. You might find the following helpful: Vendor datasheet: http://www.teac.com/DSPD/pdf/5fd0050a.pdf (http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctech/2003-October/020863.html points to that) Strapping for use with different products: http://www.oldskool.org/disk2fdi/525HDMOD.htm http://www.alphamicro.com/dss10/40200A03.pdf -ethan From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Jul 23 15:02:21 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2010 13:02:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Serial interfaces (was Re: Any former Psion 5 owners out there?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20100723125603.X81869@shell.lmi.net> > After all: USB originates from intel. Did we ever get somthing well and > proper designed and engineered from intel? Many years ago, intel briefly launched a small selection of kid's toys. There was a microscope that displayed on the computer screen, and I have an unopened box "intel-play Sound Morpher? My dog liked the intel stuffed bunny-suited worker doll. intel's "intel inside" stickers are useful for labelling vacuum chambers, restrooms, etc. From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Jul 23 15:15:18 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2010 13:15:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Serial interfaces (was Re: Any former Psion 5 owners out there?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20100723130913.V81869@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 23 Jul 2010, Tony Duell wrote: > Actually, do the USB-RS232 adapters (I refuse ot say USB-serial, since > there are many, many serial interfaces, including USB itself) allow you > to do all you can do with aa PC Async port? Like setting odd baud rates? > Or 5 bit mode (yes, I do sometimes want to talk to ta Creed 7) How could it? Do they implement the full 25 lines? Or, just the DB9 subset (1 through 8 and 20) They might not even implement the complete DE9 subset. Although MOST devices can be connected using a subset, EVERY one of the 25 lines has a purpose, even having separate signal and chassis grounds. From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Jul 23 15:20:04 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2010 16:20:04 -0400 Subject: Serial interfaces (was Re: Any former Psion 5 owners out there?) In-Reply-To: <20100723130913.V81869@shell.lmi.net> References: <20100723130913.V81869@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4C49F974.5050905@neurotica.com> On 7/23/10 4:15 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Fri, 23 Jul 2010, Tony Duell wrote: >> Actually, do the USB-RS232 adapters (I refuse ot say USB-serial, since >> there are many, many serial interfaces, including USB itself) allow you >> to do all you can do with aa PC Async port? Like setting odd baud rates? >> Or 5 bit mode (yes, I do sometimes want to talk to ta Creed 7) > > How could it? It could be done pretty easily, actually. There just has to be a demand for it. There's absolutely no technical reason why every bit of functionality present in any other kind of serial port can't be implemented in a USB adapter. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From spedraja at ono.com Fri Jul 23 16:03:51 2010 From: spedraja at ono.com (SPC) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2010 23:03:51 +0200 Subject: TEAC FD-55GFR and Deviceside In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Well, casually I was searching for one FD-55F (or FD55F, as you like) to use in my old 286 to try to grab 5.25 diskettes at 720kb of capacity. Actually are a couple in ebay, but the seller don't send them items out of the US. He's very clear in this aspect in the text of the bid announce. And I live in Europe :-( I should like to purchase one but it's clear that should need one intermediary. Could someone help ? Contact off list, please. Thanks Sergio 2010/7/23 Jason T > Last night I finally had time to assemble my Deviceside USB->5.25" > floppy interface. I decided to do it all slick-like and put the drive > in the shell of an old Sony USB CDRW. I have two examples of the TEAC > FD-55GFR drive laying around, which is the drive recommended on the > developer's site. I attached one to the ext drive carrier and > powered on. The drive head started seeking back and forth, not the > full travel of the disk, maybe 1/4 of it. It made a loud, steady > click and flashed the panel light of the bay, as if it was drawing too > much power from the little PSU. However, I went ahead and hooked it > up and read disks (DOS 1.2mb, AppleDOS and C64 1541) to images. I > haven't fully tested the images yet but they didn't error out during > the read. The DOS one was mountable in WinImage, the C64 one in CCS64 > (don't have an Apple II em handy.) > > Still bothered by the noise, I attached a Panasonic JU-475-4 drive > instead. It was quiet, no blinking light. I imaged the same disks > with that drive and that appeared to work fine, too. > > Does anyone know the FD-55GFR well? It seems to have an auto-sense > mech of some kind, and one of the two I have has a spring-eject (the > other may have had it too but the spring is missing?) It seems likely > that it would click continuously, searching for a disk. Maybe this is > normal behavior for this drive and it seems loud because it's open? > > It does the head-seek continuously whether there is a disk inserted or > not, lever-down or not. This seems bad to have happening on top of > the exposed disk surface. Or, again, maybe it's normal for this > drive? > > The easy solution is go with the Panasonic and not worry about it. > But I'd like to stick to the developer's recommended drive unless I > can be sure the Panasonic is 100% compatible too. > > -j > > -- > silent700.blogspot.com > Retrocomputing and collecting in the Chicago area: > http://chiclassiccomp.org > From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jul 23 16:24:39 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2010 14:24:39 -0700 Subject: TEAC FD-55GFR and Deviceside In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: <4C49A627.20438.15A7C8F@cclist.sydex.com> On 23 Jul 2010 at 23:03, SPC wrote: > Well, casually I was searching for one FD-55F (or FD55F, as you like) > to use in my old 286 to try to grab 5.25 diskettes at 720kb of > capacity. One can simply rejumper an FD55GFR (at least the 7xxx series) to run at 360RPM, then declare it to be a 720K drive in the BIOS setup. Works just fine. Alternatively, one can install the drive as a 1.2M and use a driver to handle the 720K issue. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jul 23 16:27:26 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2010 14:27:26 -0700 Subject: TEAC FD-55GFR and Deviceside In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C49A6CE.20002.15D0657@cclist.sydex.com> On 23 Jul 2010 at 14:29, Jason T wrote: > Does anyone know the FD-55GFR well? It seems to have an auto-sense > mech of some kind, and one of the two I have has a spring-eject (the > other may have had it too but the spring is missing?) It seems likely > that it would click continuously, searching for a disk. Maybe this is > normal behavior for this drive and it seems loud because it's open? I've used them since they were first introduced--a good drive, by and large. How is the +12 on your power supply? Does it sag or develop ripple when the drive is attached? --Chuck From silent700 at gmail.com Fri Jul 23 16:45:14 2010 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2010 16:45:14 -0500 Subject: TEAC FD-55GFR and Deviceside In-Reply-To: <4C49A6CE.20002.15D0657@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4C49A6CE.20002.15D0657@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Jul 23, 2010 at 4:27 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > I've used them since they were first introduced--a good drive, by and > large. ?How is the +12 on your power supply? ?Does it sag or develop > ripple when the drive is attached? That was my suspicion when I saw the case's power light flashing on and off in time with the drive click. That was confirmed just a moment ago by hooking the drive to an old desktop PSU. No sag, no click. Disk imaged fine. So I can leave everything hang out, go find a beefier USB caddy somewhere, or go with the less power-hungry Panasonic drive. The Deviceside's creator, Adam Goldman, advices that if I can create an image successfully with the Panasonic, it should be fine (ie if the drive were incompatible it would croak during the process.) I'll do a few more test images later and see for myself. What was odd was that despite the clicking/fluctuations of the TEAC drive, it imaged a disk just fine in that state. I can only guess that it draws a lot of power on start-up, fails to get it from this PSU, tries again and gets stuck in that loop. Addressing the drive from the interface breaks it out temporarily. Either way, probably a good way to kill a drive in short order. Given its features and the attentiveness of its developer, I can tentatively endorse the Deviceside. It can't write disks, but for that we await the Kryoflux... -j From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jul 23 16:59:24 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2010 14:59:24 -0700 Subject: TEAC FD-55GFR and Deviceside In-Reply-To: References: , <4C49A6CE.20002.15D0657@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4C49AE4C.2240.17A4CC9@cclist.sydex.com> On 23 Jul 2010 at 16:45, Jason T wrote: > Given its features and the attentiveness of its developer, I can > tentatively endorse the Deviceside. It can't write disks, but for > that we await the Kryoflux... Do you mean to say that it's *impossible* to write disks using the Deviceside? Or just that code doesn't exist? Folks write disks using the Catweasel all the time--I just finished writing some 8" hard -sector copies. --Chuck From silent700 at gmail.com Fri Jul 23 18:05:15 2010 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2010 18:05:15 -0500 Subject: TEAC FD-55GFR and Deviceside In-Reply-To: <4C49AE4C.2240.17A4CC9@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4C49A6CE.20002.15D0657@cclist.sydex.com> <4C49AE4C.2240.17A4CC9@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Jul 23, 2010 at 4:59 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Do you mean to say that it's *impossible* to write disks using the > Deviceside? ?Or just that code doesn't exist? ?Folks write disks > using the Catweasel all the time--I just finished writing some 8" > hard -sector copies. According to the developer, the ability just isn't there. Now of course the drive can still do it, being a plain old 5.25" drive. So maybe it can be done at some point - but he said he has no plans to do so. The Kryoflux is also being planned as read-only, but their page says the hardware has write capabilities and they plan to develop them later. j From geoffr at zipcon.net Fri Jul 23 19:00:06 2010 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: 23 Jul 2010 17:00:06 -0700 Subject: TEAC FD-55GFR and Deviceside In-Reply-To: References: <4C49A6CE.20002.15D0657@cclist.sydex.com> <4C49AE4C.2240.17A4CC9@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <1279929606.4c4a2d061adbd@secure.zipcon.net> Quoting Jason T : > On Fri, Jul 23, 2010 at 4:59 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > Do you mean to say that it's *impossible* to write disks using the > > Deviceside? ?Or just that code doesn't exist? ?Folks write disks > > using the Catweasel all the time--I just finished writing some 8" > > hard -sector copies. > > According to the developer, the ability just isn't there. Now of > course the drive can still do it, being a plain old 5.25" drive. So > maybe it can be done at some point - but he said he has no plans to do > so. > > The Kryoflux is also being planned as read-only, but their page says > the hardware has write capabilities and they plan to develop them > later. > > j > Actually, the Kryoflux is/was planned as read/write, it is just being released as read-only :) From brain at jbrain.com Fri Jul 23 21:17:07 2010 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2010 21:17:07 -0500 Subject: Serial interfaces In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C4A4D23.6080002@jbrain.com> On 7/22/2010 12:49 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> On 21 July 2010 00:28, John Foust wrote: >> >>> At 11:16 AM 7/20/2010, Liam Proven wrote: >>> >>>> All fair points, but then, who ever used serial ports to connect mass >>>> storage? (I know there was a serial port hard disk for the first ever >>>> Mac, but that was from complete lack of any alternative.) >>>> >>> I can think of the Commodore 64- 1541 drive >>> >> Um, that wasn't any relative of RS422, RS423, RS232 or anything akin >> > No, but it most certainly was a bit-serial interface. Serial, yes, but async, no. It had a CLK and DATA line, plus an ATN line. Many people say it's just a serial version of the IEEE protcol, and I guess you could call it that, but it's somewhat inconsistent, in my opinion. It has a dedicated ATN line, but many of the other signal lines are "emulated" by various sequences of CLK/DATA transitions. Jim From spectre at floodgap.com Sat Jul 24 01:47:01 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2010 23:47:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Coherent 3.1.0... In-Reply-To: <4C49D9E8.4060901@telefisk.org> from Jacob Dahl Pind at "Jul 23, 10 08:05:28 pm" Message-ID: <201007240647.o6O6l1SD012582@floodgap.com> > > > gopher://telefisk.org/1/coherent > > Have just check the mime settings in the gopherd, and it should delive > .dd files as a x-app type, and I found all the > missing files primary .Z ones, everything should be back again like > before my little drive crash. > Sources16/ is empty and has always been have never managed to find that > directory populated on any ftp that had coherent. Ah, good. I might have Veronica-2 reindex your site so that the itypes all match up now. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Commodore on desk/Power light glowing brightly/The computer waits -- T. Lake From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sat Jul 24 02:48:46 2010 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2010 08:48:46 +0100 Subject: Using Hummingbird with DECWindows Message-ID: <004d01cb2b04$a68b1f30$f3a15d90$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> I am experimenting with using Hummingbird Exceed to get a DECWindows environment running on my PC. I have managed to get this to work using XDM, but there are some other things about Exceed that I don't really understand and would like to explore. The first is that Hummingbird offers an option to use something called PCX$SERVER. I have not been able to find out much about this and was wondering if someone might tell me what this is and where I might find it? The second is that Hummingbird also seems to offer DECnet as a transport, but I don't see how to set this up on the PC side and again the docs I have don't say anything on this. Does anyone know how you might do this? Thanks Rob From julianskidmore at yahoo.com Fri Jul 23 08:09:57 2010 From: julianskidmore at yahoo.com (Julian Skidmore) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2010 06:09:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Fw: MacPaint and QuickDraw source code released Message-ID: <765295.47420.qm@web120217.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Hi folks, > If it was developed on the Lisa, would they have used LisaPascal? Actually the answer is in: http://www.folklore.org/StoryView.py?project=Macintosh&story=3rd_Party_Developers_and_Macintosh_Development.txt It was done using the "Lisa Monitor development environment" which was command line based with a UCSD p-system style command structure (early Mac programmers considered MPW to be the PorkShop). -cheers from julz @P From julianskidmore at yahoo.com Fri Jul 23 08:05:42 2010 From: julianskidmore at yahoo.com (Julian Skidmore) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2010 06:05:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Fw: MacPaint and QuickDraw source code released Message-ID: <196842.51018.qm@web120203.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Hi folks, > If it was developed on the Lisa, would they have used LisaPascal? There's a > Lisa emulator out there -- I might play with it this weekend and see if it > works. www.folklore.org has lots of juicy stories about early Mac development. In 1981 they were using Lisas for development (obviously). MacPaint development details: http://www.folklore.org/StoryView.py?project=Macintosh&story=MacPaint_Evolution.txt&topic=MacPaint&sortOrder=Sort%20by%20Date&detail=medium The following article explains that "Macintosh development in the early days (circa 1983-1985) was done using the Apple Lisa computer and its Lisa Workshop development environment." http://www.folklore.org/StoryView.py?project=Macintosh&story=3rd_Party_Developers_and_Macintosh_Development.txt I remember using (the interpreted) MacPascal in 1986. There weren't any Mac-hosted Pascal compiler environments that could fit into <=512Kb (128K Macs could support 256KBit DRAMs). I'm really wondering how easy it would be to convert MacPaint so that it can be compiled in, say, MPW Pascal / 68K. -cheers from julz @p From W.F.J.Mueller at gsi.de Fri Jul 23 14:19:51 2010 From: W.F.J.Mueller at gsi.de (Walter F.J. Mueller) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2010 21:19:51 +0200 Subject: yet another pdp-11 in fpga Message-ID: <4C49EB57.7060501@gsi.de> Walter F.J. Mueller wrote on 21 Jun 2010 21:02:18 +0200 > I'm in the middle of homogenizing some internal interfaces and of some > code cleanup, also the backend handler needs a re-write in C++ (currently > perl). When that's done I'll make the whole package (VHDL sources, test > benches, backend) available on 'OpenCores'. The PDP-11/70 core is now available at OpenCores, see http://opencores.org/project,w11 The documentation is admittedly still rudimentary. The backend handler is still in perl. This and many other things on the TODO list for the future. Walter From chrise at pobox.com Fri Jul 23 15:21:09 2010 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2010 15:21:09 -0500 Subject: Serial interfaces (was Re: Any former Psion 5 owners out there?) In-Reply-To: <20100723125603.X81869@shell.lmi.net> References: <20100723125603.X81869@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20100723202109.GG6049@n0jcf.net> On Friday (07/23/2010 at 01:02PM -0700), Fred Cisin wrote: > > intel's "intel inside" stickers are useful for labelling vacuum chambers, > restrooms, etc. And those "Made for Windows XP" stickers that come on laptops, they will stick to a urinal too. Chris -- Chris Elmquist From lproven at gmail.com Sat Jul 24 08:56:42 2010 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2010 14:56:42 +0100 Subject: Serial interfaces (was Re: Any former Psion 5 owners out there?) In-Reply-To: References: <20100723092551.06c8090c.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: On 23 July 2010 19:34, Tony Duell wrote: >> >> On Tue, 20 Jul 2010 10:15:46 -0400 >> Ethan Dicks wrote: >> >> > I really do not like USB. >> Seconded. > > My views on this aare well-known my now... > >> >> > It takes hundreds of cycles and more to >> > move a simple message, it's a host-based, not bi-directional design, >> > and it's only available on somewhat newish kit. >> And: Many USB devices are quirky. E.g. I can't get a break out of my >> USB-RS232 adapters. The USB host bridge in my PeeCee has a bug that > > Just out of curiousity, do the USB-parallel adapters support all the > low-level bit-twiddling that you can do on a real PC printer port? Can > you treat them as 12 digital outputs and 5 inputs? Nope,. They generally appear as a DOT4 printer device; in other words, they make a parallel printer appear to the system to be a USB printer, not the USB port appear to be a parallel port. But if you need the port, what's wrong with a Centronics parallel port or a couple of RS232 ports on a PCI card? They are the "real thing", AFAIK. -- Liam Proven ? Profile & links: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jul 24 13:11:41 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2010 19:11:41 +0100 (BST) Subject: TEAC FD-55GFR and Deviceside In-Reply-To: from "Jason T" at Jul 23, 10 02:29:35 pm Message-ID: > > Last night I finally had time to assemble my Deviceside USB->5.25" > floppy interface. I decided to do it all slick-like and put the drive > in the shell of an old Sony USB CDRW. I have two examples of the TEAC DO I take it that there is a PSU in this caee? It doens't try to draw all the power form the USB port, does it? > FD-55GFR drive laying around, which is the drive recommended on the > developer's site. I attached one to the ext drive carrier and > powered on. The drive head started seeking back and forth, not the > full travel of the disk, maybe 1/4 of it. It made a loud, steady > click and flashed the panel light of the bay, as if it was drawing too > much power from the little PSU. However, I went ahead and hooked it > up and read disks (DOS 1.2mb, AppleDOS and C64 1541) to images. I > haven't fully tested the images yet but they didn't error out during > the read. The DOS one was mountable in WinImage, the C64 one in CCS64 > (don't have an Apple II em handy.) > > Still bothered by the noise, I attached a Panasonic JU-475-4 drive > instead. It was quiet, no blinking light. I imaged the same disks > with that drive and that appeared to work fine, too. > > Does anyone know the FD-55GFR well? It seems to have an auto-sense Well enough tohave used them and repaired them. And I have the service manual for at least one version... > mech of some kind, and one of the two I have has a spring-eject (the > other may have had it too but the spring is missing?) It seems likely > that it would click continuously, searching for a disk. Maybe this is > normal behavior for this drive and it seems loud because it's open? No, it shouldn't do that. If the heads are moving around then either the controller is telling them to do that, or you have power problems. This really does sound like a power problem (possibly the drive is drawing more current than the PSU can supply). Have you tried conencting a voltmeter bertween the 5V rail and ground? And between the 12V rail and ground? You can find these power rains on the floppy drive power connecotr of course (grounds on the middle 2 pins -- black wires most of the time, one outside one (normally a read wire) is +5V, the other outside one (normally yellow) is +12V -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jul 24 13:19:33 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2010 19:19:33 +0100 (BST) Subject: Serial interfaces (was Re: Any former Psion 5 owners out there?) In-Reply-To: <4C49EE3F.6010906@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Jul 23, 10 03:32:15 pm Message-ID: > > I see.... So considering all the things I (and others) have made that > > link to PC parallel ports and which _don't_ use the centronics protocol,I > > can think of yet another reason not to downgrade to a modern PC. > > Well, as with lots of other things, there are ways around this. One Of course there are ways to do it. > of the FTDI chips can easily be used for digital bit-twiddling, and > there's at least one free library out there with great support for such > twiddling. > > Here's a good (brief) description of it, along with a $15.00 breakout > board that's got two rows of 0.1" pins on each side and a USB connector > on the end: > > http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/news.php?id=386 > > This is really good stuff, give it a shot. OK, and what would I connect the USB port to? > > I'm all for poo-pooing new stuff when it really isn't useful for > anything real, but poo-pooing just for the sake of poo-pooing is bogus. > Seriously. Sure... But there is a tendency for some people to assume that because something is new, it must be better than what came before. And a second related assumption is that becuase something is superior for some uses, it must be superior for all uses. I must admit that I tend to go too far the other way on the first assumption, and am much happier sticking to what I already know and understand. But anyway. Something is an upgrade to me if it makes mu life easier. It's a downgrade if it makes it harder. And using a complex IC and a speical library seems to eb alot harder than sending some values to I/O ports on a board with ahandfull of TTL parts on it. We can argue about relaibility too. And repairability. If I mis-conenct a port pin on that FTDI chip and burn it out, I'm out $15 + shipping. If I misconnect a pin on a PCB printer port, I have a simple TTL chip to replace that is <$1. Actually, I don't doubt that USB is a fine interface for _some applications_. The falicy is to try to use it for everything. One thing I objected to majorly was a requirement (from Microsoft I beleive) that a PC would only meet some specification if it _didn't_ have RS232 and parallel ports. BLETCH!. By all means have USB ports, but have a parallel port and a couple of serial ports _as well_. That would seem to satisfy everyone. > > > Actually, do the USB-RS232 adapters (I refuse ot say USB-serial, since > > there are many, many serial interfaces, including USB itself) allow you > > to do all you can do with aa PC Async port? Like setting odd baud rates? > > Or 5 bit mode (yes, I do sometimes want to talk to ta Creed 7) > > Some support more than others. For example, USB<->serial adapters > based on the Prolific PL-2303 chipsets (apparently) cannot generate a > break, while my Keyspan units can. Do they support 5 bit words? Do they support strange baud rates? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jul 24 13:47:44 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2010 19:47:44 +0100 (BST) Subject: Serial interfaces (was Re: Any former Psion 5 owners out there?) In-Reply-To: <20100723130913.V81869@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Jul 23, 10 01:15:18 pm Message-ID: > > On Fri, 23 Jul 2010, Tony Duell wrote: > > Actually, do the USB-RS232 adapters (I refuse ot say USB-serial, since > > there are many, many serial interfaces, including USB itself) allow you > > to do all you can do with aa PC Async port? Like setting odd baud rates? > > Or 5 bit mode (yes, I do sometimes want to talk to ta Creed 7) > > How could it? > Do they implement the full 25 lines? Or, just the DB9 subset (1 through 8 > and 20) That is why I specified 'PC Async port'. I was refering to the standard Async port found in an IBM compatible, nothing more. In other words I would not expect the secondary (back) channel. Just pins 2-8, 20 and 22. That's the subset on the DE9 connector too of course. FWIW, I wouldn't expect the current loop interface that was on the origianl IBM Async card. And I was using the accepted common meaning of 'PC', while I consider the HP9830 to be one of the first personal computers, I wouldn't expect a USB-RS232 interface to do all that the 11284 interface for the HP could do... > They might not even implement the complete DE9 subset. That's really what I was asking, along with can it do all that hte 8250/16450/16500/etc can do. > > Although MOST devices can be connected using a subset, EVERY one of the 25 > lines has a purpose, even having separate signal and chassis grounds. The RS232 spec I work from has a few pins labelled 'reserved', so perhaps not all 25 are used. But a lot more are defined than are commonly used on micros/. There's a complete second serial channel, for example (very few micros implemented that -- the HP Integral is one of the few that does...). And clock I/O for synchronous modes -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jul 24 13:22:54 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2010 19:22:54 +0100 (BST) Subject: Serial interfaces (was Re: Any former Psion 5 owners out there?) In-Reply-To: <20100723125603.X81869@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Jul 23, 10 01:02:21 pm Message-ID: > > > After all: USB originates from intel. Did we ever get somthing well and > > proper designed and engineered from intel? > > Many years ago, intel briefly launched a small selection of kid's toys. > There was a microscope that displayed on the computer screen, and I have Hmm. My (optical) microscope is modern enough to contain a couple of semiconductor devices (a Triac in the lamp supply, for example), but nothing more. On the other hand, I'll bet it's got a better resolution than this Intel thing (Zeiss optics are well respected...), and if I want a record of what I am looking at, well I have an adapter to put a camera on it. > an unopened box "intel-play Sound Morpher? > > My dog liked the intel stuffed bunny-suited worker doll. > > intel's "intel inside" stickers are useful for labelling vacuum chambers, > restrooms, etc. Actually, I've wanted to stick them on machines that contain Intel chips, jsut not Intel CPUs. For example my HP9800s (which contain a lot of 1103 DRAMs), my PERQs (microcotnrollers and the CODEC chip), and so on. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jul 24 15:01:43 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2010 21:01:43 +0100 (BST) Subject: Serial interfaces In-Reply-To: <4C4A4D23.6080002@jbrain.com> from "Jim Brain" at Jul 23, 10 09:17:07 pm Message-ID: > >>> I can think of the Commodore 64- 1541 drive > >>> > >> Um, that wasn't any relative of RS422, RS423, RS232 or anything akin > >> > > No, but it most certainly was a bit-serial interface. > Serial, yes, but async, no. It had a CLK and DATA line, plus an ATN line. True enough.. > > Many people say it's just a serial version of the IEEE protcol, and I > guess you could call it that, but it's somewhat inconsistent, in my > opinion. It has a dedicated ATN line, but many of the other signal > lines are "emulated" by various sequences of CLK/DATA transitions. HPIL is perhaps closer to a 'serial IEEE-488 interface'. Althougb electrically very different (it's not a bus, it's aloop, each peripehral passes the data on to the enxt one), logically almost all concepts transfer between the 2 intefaces. To the extent that for many applications the HP82169 HPIL-HPIB translator is truely 'plug and play'. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jul 24 15:19:35 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2010 21:19:35 +0100 (BST) Subject: Serial interfaces (was Re: Any former Psion 5 owners out there?) In-Reply-To: from "Liam Proven" at Jul 24, 10 02:56:42 pm Message-ID: > > Just out of curiousity, do the USB-parallel adapters support all the > > low-level bit-twiddling that you can do on a real PC printer port? Can > > you treat them as 12 digital outputs and 5 inputs? > > Nope,. They generally appear as a DOT4 printer device; in other words, > they make a parallel printer appear to the system to be a USB printer, > not the USB port appear to be a parallel port. Right... Pity... > > But if you need the port, what's wrong with a Centronics parallel port > or a couple of RS232 ports on a PCI card? They are the "real thing", > AFAIK. Nothing, provide the host machine has a PCI slot. There seem to be an awful lot of modern PCs that have USB as the only expansion. -tony From lproven at gmail.com Sat Jul 24 15:59:27 2010 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2010 21:59:27 +0100 Subject: Serial interfaces (was Re: Any former Psion 5 owners out there?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 24 July 2010 21:19, Tony Duell wrote: >> > Just out of curiousity, do the USB-parallel adapters support all the >> > low-level bit-twiddling that you can do on a real PC printer port? Can >> > you treat them as 12 digital outputs and 5 inputs? >> >> Nope,. They generally appear as a DOT4 printer device; in other words, >> they make a parallel printer appear to the system to be a USB printer, >> not the USB port appear to be a parallel port. > > Right... Pity... They work *remarkably* well with even old printers, in my experience, but not any other parallel-port device, AFAIK. Same as the USB floppy drive chips: they only talk to 1.4MB drives and can't do GCR and so on. More of the sad commoditisation of the computer industry, the descent to a lowest-common-denominator: the X86 PC. :?( The next jump will be more interesting: 32-bit OSs basically can't usefully handle >4GB of RAM, nor can the main ones handle >2GB drives. Both are becoming common. I think we might be on the brink of a jump to an all-64 bit world of x86 PCs that always have multicore chips, ship with >4GB of RAM and >2GB drives, which is going to accelerate the death of Windows XP and indeed Vista, and give the whole PC industry a shove to move to EFI, killing the BIOS and DOS compatibility. But 64-bit Window also drops the 16-bit subsystem, so DOS and 16-bit Windows apps will disappear too. I'm not saying this is a good thing in all ways. In some, it'll be a shame. But the PC is about to shed the last remnants of its days as an 8/16-bit DOS-compatible. That is interesting, at least. >> But if you need the port, what's wrong with a Centronics parallel port >> or a couple of RS232 ports on a PCI card? They are the "real thing", >> AFAIK. > > Nothing, provide the host machine has a PCI slot. There seem to be an > awful lot of modern PCs that have USB as the only expansion. For now, almost exclusively notebooks and portables and a very small number of ultra-small-form-factor devices. But that sector will grow and the desktop one will shrink, so, longer term, true. I think some desktops will be around for "power users" for a long time to come, though. -- Liam Proven ? Profile & links: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Jul 24 16:10:41 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2010 17:10:41 -0400 Subject: Serial interfaces (was Re: Any former Psion 5 owners out there?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C4B56D1.9030109@neurotica.com> On 7/24/10 4:19 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > Nothing, provide the host machine has a PCI slot. There seem to be an > awful lot of modern PCs that have USB as the only expansion. Ugh. People who purchase such garbage get what they've got coming to them. Of course the same can be said for PCs in general. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From legalize at xmission.com Sat Jul 24 16:24:20 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2010 15:24:20 -0600 Subject: Serial interfaces (was Re: Any former Psion 5 owners out there?) In-Reply-To: Your message of Sat, 24 Jul 2010 21:59:27 +0100. Message-ID: In article , Liam Proven writes: > [USB dongles] work *remarkably* well with even old printers [...] > but not any other parallel-port device, AFAIK. But there's nothing inherent in the USB spec that prevents this as a possibility, its simply the kind of USB dongle that people have built to date, right? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From geoffr at zipcon.net Sat Jul 24 16:24:27 2010 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoffrey Reed) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2010 14:24:27 -0700 Subject: Serial interfaces (was Re: Any former Psion 5 owners out there?) In-Reply-To: <4C4B56D1.9030109@neurotica.com> Message-ID: I have a machine with no PCI slots, but it has 5 PCI-X slots :) On 7/24/10 2:10 PM, "Dave McGuire" wrote: > On 7/24/10 4:19 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> Nothing, provide the host machine has a PCI slot. There seem to be an >> awful lot of modern PCs that have USB as the only expansion. > > Ugh. People who purchase such garbage get what they've got coming to > them. Of course the same can be said for PCs in general. > > -Dave From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jul 24 16:27:16 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2010 22:27:16 +0100 (BST) Subject: Serial interfaces (was Re: Any former Psion 5 owners out there?) In-Reply-To: from "Liam Proven" at Jul 24, 10 09:59:27 pm Message-ID: [USB-Centronics adpaters] > They work *remarkably* well with even old printers, in my experience, That's not too suprising. The Centronics interfaec was pretty well standardised, and it's fairly simple anyway... > but not any other parallel-port device, AFAIK. Same as the USB floppy Incidentally, I've sort-of had the revers problem, but not with USB. With HPIL. The HPIL-GPIO intefaces (HP82165, HP82166) will talk to a Centronics printer with no problem at all. But they identify themselves to the HPIL controller as an interface device (which they are), not a printer. Which means some HPIL machines (the 110 nd Portable+ laptops being obvious examples) will not recognise such a set-up as a printer and won't print to it. This is entirely a software problem, with the right drives it will work. Fortuantely the machine I use the most, the HP71B, has the admirable policy that it will do what you tell it to do, even if it may be a bad idea :-). Anf it will happily print to a Centronics printer on the other side fo an HP82165... > drive chips: they only talk to 1.4MB drives and can't do GCR and so > on. I wouldn't expect them to do GCR (most PC internal controllers can't). But I suspect they can't do FM (single density) either. Can they handle 250kbps (360K, 720K) or 300kbps (360k disks in a 1.2M dribe basically) data rates? Or do they assume tat everything is an HD 3.5" disk? > > More of the sad commoditisation of the computer industry, the descent > to a lowest-common-denominator: the X86 PC. :=AC( But it's worse than that. Things that I can do (and do do) on my 80x86 PC are not so easy to do on modern machines. -tony From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Jul 24 16:29:32 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2010 17:29:32 -0400 Subject: Serial interfaces (was Re: Any former Psion 5 owners out there?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C4B5B3C.6050808@neurotica.com> Yeah, yeah. You know what I mean. ;) -Dave On 7/24/10 5:24 PM, Geoffrey Reed wrote: > I have a machine with no PCI slots, but it has 5 PCI-X slots :) > > > On 7/24/10 2:10 PM, "Dave McGuire" wrote: > >> On 7/24/10 4:19 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >>> Nothing, provide the host machine has a PCI slot. There seem to be an >>> awful lot of modern PCs that have USB as the only expansion. >> >> Ugh. People who purchase such garbage get what they've got coming to >> them. Of course the same can be said for PCs in general. >> >> -Dave > > -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From thomas.gardner at sbcglobal.net Sat Jul 24 17:04:14 2010 From: thomas.gardner at sbcglobal.net (Tom Gardner) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2010 15:04:14 -0700 Subject: Looking for IBM manual circa 1982 Message-ID: Anyone have a copy of or knows where I can get a copy of: "IBM 4321/4331 Processors Compatibility Features," IBM GA33-1528, any revision? Revision 3 was published in September 1982. Contact off line please Tom From geoffr at zipcon.net Sat Jul 24 17:50:51 2010 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoffrey Reed) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2010 15:50:51 -0700 Subject: Serial interfaces (was Re: Any former Psion 5 owners out there?) In-Reply-To: <4C4B5B3C.6050808@neurotica.com> Message-ID: Couldn't resist being a smart-arse... On 7/24/10 2:29 PM, "Dave McGuire" wrote: > > Yeah, yeah. You know what I mean. ;) > > -Dave > > On 7/24/10 5:24 PM, Geoffrey Reed wrote: >> I have a machine with no PCI slots, but it has 5 PCI-X slots :) >> >> >> On 7/24/10 2:10 PM, "Dave McGuire" wrote: >> >>> On 7/24/10 4:19 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >>>> Nothing, provide the host machine has a PCI slot. There seem to be an >>>> awful lot of modern PCs that have USB as the only expansion. >>> >>> Ugh. People who purchase such garbage get what they've got coming to >>> them. Of course the same can be said for PCs in general. >>> >>> -Dave >> >> > From jack.rubin at ameritech.net Sat Jul 24 17:52:05 2010 From: jack.rubin at ameritech.net (Jack Rubin) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2010 17:52:05 -0500 Subject: Turbo Technix - Borland publication Message-ID: <137AB2E5180F4284B1E586B8927BE2F0@obie> I have the first 6 issues of Borland's Turbo Technix available for the cost of postage. Bimonthly issues run from November/December 1987 through September/October 1988. Please reply offlist. Jack From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Jul 24 18:02:14 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2010 19:02:14 -0400 Subject: Serial interfaces (was Re: Any former Psion 5 owners out there?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C4B70F6.5060908@neurotica.com> It's in your blood. ;) And yes I still owe you some EPROMs, dammit just remembered that again. I'll dig when I get home tonight. I can't seem to find the box my "smallish" EPROMs are in. The big ones are no problem...need any 27C010s? ;) -Dave On 7/24/10 6:50 PM, Geoffrey Reed wrote: > Couldn't resist being a smart-arse... > > > On 7/24/10 2:29 PM, "Dave McGuire" wrote: > >> >> Yeah, yeah. You know what I mean. ;) >> >> -Dave >> >> On 7/24/10 5:24 PM, Geoffrey Reed wrote: >>> I have a machine with no PCI slots, but it has 5 PCI-X slots :) >>> >>> >>> On 7/24/10 2:10 PM, "Dave McGuire" wrote: >>> >>>> On 7/24/10 4:19 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >>>>> Nothing, provide the host machine has a PCI slot. There seem to be an >>>>> awful lot of modern PCs that have USB as the only expansion. >>>> >>>> Ugh. People who purchase such garbage get what they've got coming to >>>> them. Of course the same can be said for PCs in general. >>>> >>>> -Dave >>> >>> >> > > -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cclist at sydex.com Sat Jul 24 19:23:57 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2010 17:23:57 -0700 Subject: Adaptec SCSI (was Re: Coherent 3.1.0...) In-Reply-To: <4C49C6FD.6040602@neurotica.com> References: , <4C49C6FD.6040602@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4C4B21AD.26999.1D78058@cclist.sydex.com> On 23 Jul 2010 at 12:44, Dave McGuire wrote: > +1...The 1542B/C were both really nice cards. I saved up and bought > one (a 'B') when they were current, I think it cost me something > obscene like $300. If anyone really needs the old version of the AHA1540A, I've got one-- that's the one that's not populated for the floppy controller. I'll happily swap for some useful 8-bit ISA card or the other. --Chuck From lproven at gmail.com Sat Jul 24 20:27:50 2010 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2010 02:27:50 +0100 Subject: Serial interfaces (was Re: Any former Psion 5 owners out there?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 24 July 2010 22:24, Richard wrote: > > In article , > ? ?Liam Proven ?writes: > >> [USB dongles] work *remarkably* well with even old printers [...] >> but not any other parallel-port device, AFAIK. > > But there's nothing inherent in the USB spec that prevents this as a > possibility, its simply the kind of USB dongle that people have built > to date, right? I have no idea on technical grounds, but inasmuch as there are, or were, USB<=>SCSI adaptors, I think it's /technically/ possible in terms of electronic capabilities. What I suspect on no particular evidence is that software-wise it probably isn't, 'cos I am /guessing/ that a USB device can't present itself as a port on 0x378 on IRQ 7 etc. But I don't know - I'm just hypothesizing wildly. -- Liam Proven ? Profile & links: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From lproven at gmail.com Sat Jul 24 20:31:13 2010 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2010 02:31:13 +0100 Subject: Serial interfaces (was Re: Any former Psion 5 owners out there?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 24 July 2010 22:27, Tony Duell wrote: > [USB-Centronics adpaters] > >> They work *remarkably* well with even old printers, in my experience, > > That's not too suprising. The Centronics interfaec was pretty well > standardised, and it's fairly simple anyway... I was thinking of stuff like mid-1990s parallel printers being auto-identified by PnP through a USB-Parallel adapter, by all of Windows, Linux and Mac OS X. So clearly some 2-way comms are occurring. > I wouldn't expect them to do GCR (most PC internal controllers can't). > But I suspect they can't do FM (single density) either. Can they handle > 250kbps (360K, 720K) or 300kbps (360k disks in a 1.2M dribe basically) > data rates? Or do they assume tat everything is an HD 3.5" disk? Not tried. I believe 720K PC disks work, and by extension Atari ST disks, and possibly most things written by a WD FD controller chip, but getting clever doesn't. I have some "naughty" block-duplicated 360K 3.5" disks - imaged off 5.25" media onto 3.5" for archiving. That's an "illegal" format - 40-track DSDD 3.5" media never existed on the PC-compatibles, AFAIK. I'd be interested to know if they'd work on a USB floppy. Someday, I will try. > But it's worse than that. Things that I can do (and do do) on my 80x86 PC > are not so easy to do on modern machines. What x86 kit do you run? -- Liam Proven ? Profile & links: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From ploopster at gmail.com Sat Jul 24 20:32:59 2010 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2010 21:32:59 -0400 Subject: Serial interfaces (was Re: Any former Psion 5 owners out there?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C4B944B.9080907@gmail.com> Liam Proven wrote: > I have no idea on technical grounds, but inasmuch as there are, or > were, USB<=>SCSI adaptors, I think it's /technically/ possible in > terms of electronic capabilities. What I suspect on no particular > evidence is that software-wise it probably isn't, 'cos I am /guessing/ > that a USB device can't present itself as a port on 0x378 on IRQ 7 > etc. Well, wasn't it actually 0x3bc on the original PC? And I don't see why a USB device couldn't do that, given the proper drivers. Peace... Sridhar From lproven at gmail.com Sat Jul 24 20:47:28 2010 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2010 02:47:28 +0100 Subject: Serial interfaces (was Re: Any former Psion 5 owners out there?) In-Reply-To: <4C4B944B.9080907@gmail.com> References: <4C4B944B.9080907@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 25 July 2010 02:32, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Liam Proven wrote: >> >> I have no idea on technical grounds, but inasmuch as there are, or >> were, USB<=>SCSI adaptors, I think it's /technically/ possible in >> terms of electronic capabilities. What I suspect on no particular >> evidence is that software-wise it probably isn't, 'cos I am /guessing/ >> that a USB device can't present itself as a port on 0x378 on IRQ 7 >> etc. > > Well, wasn't it actually 0x3bc on the original PC? ?And I don't see why a > USB device couldn't do that, given the proper drivers. I don't know, but AFAICR I have not /seen/ anything that works like that. I suspect it'd be a lot more work to make a hardware-level compatible USB<=>Parallel adaptor than a cheap'n'cheerful one that just does enough for printing. -- Liam Proven ? Profile & links: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From cclist at sydex.com Sat Jul 24 20:52:34 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2010 18:52:34 -0700 Subject: Serial interfaces (was Re: Any former Psion 5 owners out there?) In-Reply-To: References: , , Message-ID: <4C4B3672.26652.228A29C@cclist.sydex.com> On 25 Jul 2010 at 2:31, Liam Proven wrote: > Not tried. I believe 720K PC disks work, and by extension Atari ST > disks, and possibly most things written by a WD FD controller chip, > but getting clever doesn't. Most common USB drives can handle 9x512, 18x512 and 8x1024 sector formats, assuming that the ID headers follow the usual conventions (sector 1 = 1, head 0 = 0, cylinder = actual). That last format was mostly used by the NEC PC98 series. Essentially they're tri-mode drives that understand plain old DOS (and DOS-V) type formats. The command structure is basically SCSI- ish. --Chuck From brain at jbrain.com Sat Jul 24 21:58:50 2010 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2010 21:58:50 -0500 Subject: Serial interfaces (was Re: Any former Psion 5 owners out there?) In-Reply-To: References: <4C4B944B.9080907@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4C4BA86A.5010905@jbrain.com> On 7/24/2010 8:47 PM, Liam Proven wrote: > On 25 July 2010 02:32, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > >> Liam Proven wrote: >> >>> I have no idea on technical grounds, but inasmuch as there are, or >>> were, USB<=>SCSI adaptors, I think it's /technically/ possible in >>> terms of electronic capabilities. What I suspect on no particular >>> evidence is that software-wise it probably isn't, 'cos I am /guessing/ >>> that a USB device can't present itself as a port on 0x378 on IRQ 7 >>> etc. >>> >> Well, wasn't it actually 0x3bc on the original PC? And I don't see why a >> USB device couldn't do that, given the proper drivers. >> > I don't know, but AFAICR I have not /seen/ anything that works like > that. I suspect it'd be a lot more work to make a hardware-level > compatible USB<=>Parallel adaptor than a cheap'n'cheerful one that > just does enough for printing. > > > If there is interest, I am positive a solution could be created that would allow use of all 25 pins of the parallel port, but, it would have two drawbacks/showstoppers: Most code that uses the parallel port as a GPIO port hacks at it using the actual IO address (I forget the actual base addy for the PC port right now, but everyone knows what I'm talking about. It *might* be possible to trap all direct access calls in that space and emulating the IO store/read calls, but that carries a very high overhead. Latency. I'm not sure you could "flip" a line on the emulated parallel port nearly as fast as you can do on a real parallel port. If some implementation used the various lines as a serial line, for example, it would be very hard to get the IO packet for a "pin HI" and then another one for "pin LO" to the USB device in the required timeframe. The latter is most likely the showstopper. As an example, for years, CBM folks have used a cable called the X1541 cable to communicate with IEC-based drives (1541, 71, 81, etc.) from the parallel port. Due to the transition frequency, it was impossible to directly translate that to USB. The solution was to move more of the low level work to a small uC attached to the PC via USB. Jim -- Jim Brain, Brain Innovations (X) brain at jbrain.com Dabbling in WWW, Embedded Systems, Old CBM computers, and Good Times! Home: http://www.jbrain.com From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Jul 24 23:51:52 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2010 00:51:52 -0400 Subject: Serial interfaces (was Re: Any former Psion 5 owners out there?) In-Reply-To: <4C4B944B.9080907@gmail.com> References: <4C4B944B.9080907@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4C4BC2E8.4040601@neurotica.com> On 7/24/10 9:32 PM, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >> I have no idea on technical grounds, but inasmuch as there are, or >> were, USB<=>SCSI adaptors, I think it's /technically/ possible in >> terms of electronic capabilities. What I suspect on no particular >> evidence is that software-wise it probably isn't, 'cos I am /guessing/ >> that a USB device can't present itself as a port on 0x378 on IRQ 7 >> etc. > > Well, wasn't it actually 0x3bc on the original PC? And I don't see why a > USB device couldn't do that, given the proper drivers. How would it? Those are addresses on the bus. All the drivers in the world won't make it appear on the bus. Unless, of course, a driver has some way of seeing and trapping I/O instructions, redirecting them into their own piece of code, and faking their return. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Jul 24 23:53:39 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2010 00:53:39 -0400 Subject: Serial interfaces (was Re: Any former Psion 5 owners out there?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C4BC353.4070407@neurotica.com> On 7/24/10 9:27 PM, Liam Proven wrote: >>> [USB dongles] work *remarkably* well with even old printers [...] >>> but not any other parallel-port device, AFAIK. >> >> But there's nothing inherent in the USB spec that prevents this as a >> possibility, its simply the kind of USB dongle that people have built >> to date, right? > > I have no idea on technical grounds, but inasmuch as there are, or > were, USB<=>SCSI adaptors, I think it's /technically/ possible in > terms of electronic capabilities. What I suspect on no particular > evidence is that software-wise it probably isn't, 'cos I am /guessing/ > that a USB device can't present itself as a port on 0x378 on IRQ 7 > etc. You are correct, but that's not how USB<->SCSI interfaces are built. USB's mass storage device class acts as a transport mechanism for the SCSI command set. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From silent700 at gmail.com Sun Jul 25 00:11:55 2010 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2010 00:11:55 -0500 Subject: TEAC FD-55GFR and Deviceside In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Jul 24, 2010 at 1:11 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > DO I take it that there is a PSU in this caee? It doens't try to draw all > the power form the USB port, does it? Yes, a real 120v PSU, but a wimpy one, as I later proved. I went with the less power-hungry Panasonic and so far all is well. From geoffr at zipcon.net Sun Jul 25 00:16:46 2010 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoffrey Reed) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2010 22:16:46 -0700 Subject: TEAC FD-55GFR and Deviceside In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Doesn't the TEAC have a fairly beefy head load solenoid? On 7/24/10 10:11 PM, "Jason T" wrote: > On Sat, Jul 24, 2010 at 1:11 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> DO I take it that there is a PSU in this caee? It doens't try to draw all >> the power form the USB port, does it? > > Yes, a real 120v PSU, but a wimpy one, as I later proved. I went with > the less power-hungry Panasonic and so far all is well. > From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jul 25 00:47:48 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2010 22:47:48 -0700 Subject: TEAC FD-55GFR and Deviceside In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: <4C4B6D94.4789.2FFFE14@cclist.sydex.com> On 24 Jul 2010 at 22:16, Geoffrey Reed wrote: > Doesn't the TEAC have a fairly beefy head load solenoid? It was available as an option, as was a door lock. The ones marketed for PeeCee use do not have either. --Chuck From mardy at pernetics.com Sat Jul 24 16:56:19 2010 From: mardy at pernetics.com (Marden P. Marshall) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2010 17:56:19 -0400 Subject: DEC LA-100 Printer - Free to a good home Message-ID: <11D8F459-7EA9-47A5-ACF5-1D28B75FE8AF@pernetics.com> Somebody gave me this a couple of years back and it's been sitting on a shelf ever since. Now it's time to clean off the shelf. If someone wants it before I haul it off to the landfill, please let me know. I never tried it, but the person that gave it to me said that it was working for them. Local pickup in Southern New Hampshire (USA). If someone wants it bad enough and can't pick it up, I'm willing to pack it up and ship it for them. -Mardy From csquared3 at tx.rr.com Sat Jul 24 22:38:30 2010 From: csquared3 at tx.rr.com (Charlie Carothers) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2010 22:38:30 -0500 Subject: Serial interfaces (was Re: Any former Psion 5 owners out there?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C4BB1B6.5080002@tx.rr.com> Tony Duell wrote: >>> Just out of curiousity, do the USB-parallel adapters support all the >>> low-level bit-twiddling that you can do on a real PC printer port? Can >>> you treat them as 12 digital outputs and 5 inputs? >> Nope,. They generally appear as a DOT4 printer device; in other words, >> they make a parallel printer appear to the system to be a USB printer, >> not the USB port appear to be a parallel port. > > Right... Pity... > >> But if you need the port, what's wrong with a Centronics parallel port >> or a couple of RS232 ports on a PCI card? They are the "real thing", >> AFAIK. > > Nothing, provide the host machine has a PCI slot. There seem to be an > awful lot of modern PCs that have USB as the only expansion. > > -tony > Hi Tony, I'm sort of surprised to hear you say that RS232 ports on a PCI card are OK with you. Maybe it's because I'm primarily a software guy, but for some purposes I loathe RS232 ports on PCI cards almost as much as I do USB. I think my loathing of both technologies is much the same as yours, in that in some cases they both make it more difficult for me to do precisely what I wish to do. Just as one example, I have some legacy DOS-based software containing its own UART driver. I don't even want to think about trying to make that work on a PCI card RS232 port. BTW, I don't mean to imply that I unconditionally loathe these two bits of technology - just when they get in my way. At other times, I greatly enjoy the use of both. Later, Charlie C. From silent700 at gmail.com Sun Jul 25 02:21:25 2010 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2010 02:21:25 -0500 Subject: TEAC FD-55GFR and Deviceside In-Reply-To: <4C4B6D94.4789.2FFFE14@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4C4B6D94.4789.2FFFE14@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Jul 25, 2010 at 12:47 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 24 Jul 2010 at 22:16, Geoffrey Reed wrote: > It was available as an option, as was a door lock. ?The ones marketed > for PeeCee use do not have either. Yeah, I have no idea the source of the two examples I have, but they live on in my stash for another day. From lproven at gmail.com Sun Jul 25 07:21:28 2010 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2010 13:21:28 +0100 Subject: The Chipophone Message-ID: Not exactly retro in its build, but it might interest folk hereabouts. http://www.linusakesson.net/chipophone/index.php The Chipophone is an electronic organ whose guts have been replaced with a pair of microcontrollers to make it into a 1980s-style 8-bit synthesizer, for playing classic videogame chiptunes live. It helps that its creator is an excellent player of such things. For example, Rob Hubbard's /Spellbound/ from 1986: http://www.linusakesson.net/chipophone/spellbound.php -- Liam Proven ? Profile & links: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From pat at computer-refuge.org Sun Jul 25 10:23:11 2010 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2010 11:23:11 -0400 Subject: Lot of PDP-11/84 on ebay in Boston Message-ID: <201007251123.11627.pat@computer-refuge.org> Someone should try to snap these up: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=140431577078 I doubt scrap value is over (or even near) $50/each, so maybe you can deal with the guy if you're willing to pick them up. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From legalize at xmission.com Sun Jul 25 11:04:39 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2010 10:04:39 -0600 Subject: Lot of PDP-11/84 on ebay in Boston In-Reply-To: Your message of Sun, 25 Jul 2010 11:23:11 -0400. <201007251123.11627.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: In article <201007251123.11627.pat at computer-refuge.org>, Patrick Finnegan writes: > Someone should try to snap these up: > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=140431577078 > > I doubt scrap value is over (or even near) $50/each, so maybe you can > deal with the guy if you're willing to pick them up. Didn't we talk about this before? The guy wants $550 *per system*, not for the lot of them. I don't understand his attitude of "pay me $500 or they go for scrap, they won't be listed again" along with his "I hate to see vintage gear get scrapped". If you really hated to see vintage gear get scrapped, you wouldn't put the starting price at $500. Is the scrap value for PDP-11/84s really that high? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Jul 25 11:38:49 2010 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2010 09:38:49 -0700 Subject: Lot of PDP-11/84 on ebay in Boston In-Reply-To: <201007251123.11627.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <201007251123.11627.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: If I read that right, that's $550 per system. Zane At 11:23 AM -0400 7/25/10, Patrick Finnegan wrote: >Someone should try to snap these up: > >http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=140431577078 > >I doubt scrap value is over (or even near) $50/each, so maybe you can >deal with the guy if you're willing to pick them up. -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Jul 25 11:56:35 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2010 09:56:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: TEAC FD-55GFR and Deviceside In-Reply-To: <4C4B6D94.4789.2FFFE14@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4C4B6D94.4789.2FFFE14@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20100725094953.P50667@shell.lmi.net> > > Doesn't the TEAC have a fairly beefy head load solenoid? On Sat, 24 Jul 2010, Chuck Guzis wrote: > It was available as an option, as was a door lock. The ones marketed > for PeeCee use do not have either. I wondered why the 55F's mostly had them, but most of the 55B's didn't. "on the 96tpi drives, not on the 48tpi ones" It didn't seem like loading and unloading the head was likely to improve the radial alignment! THESE DAYS, we're looking at used, or maye NOS, so we're shopping by model number, and the original intended market is meaningless. If I find a 55GFR, I have no idea what market it was marketed for. I never bothered to measure, but the 465's did seem to use less power. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From mdavidson1963 at gmail.com Sun Jul 25 13:57:24 2010 From: mdavidson1963 at gmail.com (Mark Davidson) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2010 11:57:24 -0700 Subject: Lot of PDP-11/84 on ebay in Boston In-Reply-To: References: <201007251123.11627.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: Yeah, and in the description he says: Any offers below $450 for single systems will be rejected. Nice. On Sun, Jul 25, 2010 at 9:38 AM, Zane H. Healy wrote: > If I read that right, that's $550 per system. > > Zane > > > > At 11:23 AM -0400 7/25/10, Patrick Finnegan wrote: >> >> Someone should try to snap these up: >> >> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=140431577078 >> >> I doubt scrap value is over (or even near) $50/each, so maybe you can >> deal with the guy if you're willing to pick them up. > > -- > | Zane H. Healy ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?| UNIX Systems Administrator | > | healyzh at aracnet.com ? ? ? ? ? ? ?| OpenVMS Enthusiast ? ? ? ? | > | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?| Photographer ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | > +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ > | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? My flickr Photostream ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | > | ? ? ? ? ?http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ ? ? ? ? ? | > From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Jul 25 13:59:16 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2010 14:59:16 -0400 Subject: gopher access from modern systems was Re: Coherent 3.1.0... In-Reply-To: <201007221929.o6MJTtl3005986@floodgap.com> References: <201007221929.o6MJTtl3005986@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <4C4C8984.5010704@neurotica.com> On 7/22/10 3:29 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > Besides quite a bit of file archives, which I think would be useful > particularly to this group (I maintain personally a big collection of > classic Mac software; Jacob has his Amiga and Coherent archives, and lots of > other stuff), I use my own gopher server for fast access to news and weather > articles that the server collects. No ads, simple text. > > Gopher is not very good at hypertext, but it is a lot better at collecting > documents into coherent hierarchies. While FTP can do this too, it has more > overhead and (if improperly configured) security impact, and HTTP doesn't do > this natively (such things exist as machinations of the server) besides all > the excess with HTTP's overhead. Sure, you could simulate such simplicity > with a constrained HTTP implementation, but why bother when Gopher is > already a very simple protocol and works well? > > Gopher is also very compelling on mobile devices, especially bandwidth and > screen constrained, which is why I wrote a client for Android. There is also > a J2ME client that runs on any phone that can run MIDlets. > > Plus, damn near anything can parse a gopher menu. It's almost as trivial > a format as you get. > > Gopher's main deficiency is discoverability -- it's hard to navigate back > from a terminal document into a menu without a lot of gyration. I'm trying to > solve this on the client side without disturbing what is a refreshingly > simple way to access a server. Gopher is a good system. I think we should start a movement to "bring it back". I used it constantly in the early 1990s; it was very useful. Everyone I've ever spoken with about it remembers it with great fondness. Things have changed a lot since that stuff was in mainstream use, both in terms of networking and user expectations. What is the current operational/portability/performance status of the gopher and veronica server code? I don't recall their being more than a couple of implementations. I'm an accomplished UNIX network/protocols programmer and would be willing (time permitting) to take on the task of modernizing the server-side code on a time-available basis. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jul 25 13:10:07 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2010 19:10:07 +0100 (BST) Subject: Serial interfaces (was Re: Any former Psion 5 owners out there?) In-Reply-To: from "Liam Proven" at Jul 25, 10 02:27:50 am Message-ID: > >> [USB dongles] work *remarkably* well with even old printers [...] > >> but not any other parallel-port device, AFAIK. > > > > But there's nothing inherent in the USB spec that prevents this as a > > possibility, its simply the kind of USB dongle that people have built > > to date, right? > > I have no idea on technical grounds, but inasmuch as there are, or > were, USB<=3D>SCSI adaptors, I think it's /technically/ possible in > terms of electronic capabilities. What I suspect on no particular I've enver seen the actual USB spec, but I can think of no reason why this is impossible. Incidentally, is the USB spec -- a low level one describing just what goes on on the 2 signal wires, etc -- available anywhere, or would I have to sign NDAs, etc, to get it? > evidence is that software-wise it probably isn't, 'cos I am /guessing/ > that a USB device can't present itself as a port on 0x378 on IRQ 7 > etc. I can't think of any obvious way of trapping I/O instructions on an 80x86 processor (which is essentially what you need for this). If you haf the specs of whatever device you were trying to link up, then I guess you could write drivers to use the USB adapter, but it would be a lot of work.. Incidentlaly, what do the USB-serial adapters do? I assume they don't respond to acesses to the I/O ports conentionally used for PC serial ports. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jul 25 13:22:32 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2010 19:22:32 +0100 (BST) Subject: Serial interfaces (was Re: Any former Psion 5 owners out there?) In-Reply-To: <4C4B944B.9080907@gmail.com> from "Sridhar Ayengar" at Jul 24, 10 09:32:59 pm Message-ID: > > that a USB device can't present itself as a port on 0x378 on IRQ 7 > > etc. > > Well, wasn't it actually 0x3bc on the original PC? And I don't see why Sort-of. The parallel port on the MDA card (and on most clone monochrome cards with printer ports) was at 0x3bc. The port on the printer card was at 0x378, and there was a jumper to move it to 0x278. The IBM ROM BIOS (at leas in the PC, XT, and AT machines) looked for printer ports at 0x3bc, 0x378 and 0x278 in that order. The first one it found became LPT1:, tjhe second one LPT2:, and so on. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jul 25 13:19:37 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2010 19:19:37 +0100 (BST) Subject: Serial interfaces (was Re: Any former Psion 5 owners out there?) In-Reply-To: from "Liam Proven" at Jul 25, 10 02:31:13 am Message-ID: [USB floppy controllers] > > But I suspect they can't do FM (single density) either. Can they handle > > 250kbps (360K, 720K) or 300kbps (360k disks in a 1.2M dribe basically) > > data rates? Or do they assume tat everything is an HD 3.5" disk? > > Not tried. I believe 720K PC disks work, and by extension Atari ST > disks, and possibly most things written by a WD FD controller chip, > but getting clever doesn't. OK... > > I have some "naughty" block-duplicated 360K 3.5" disks - imaged off > 5.25" media onto 3.5" for archiving. That's an "illegal" format - > 40-track DSDD 3.5" media never existed on the PC-compatibles, AFAIK. > I'd be interested to know if they'd work on a USB floppy. Someday, I > will try. The 720K PC disk format is identical at the cylinder level to the 360K PC format, it's just that the former has twice as many cylinders. I assume your archived disks simply store the contents of a 360K disk in cylinders 0-39 of a 720K disk, leaving the other 40 cylinders empty. In which case anything that can read a clyinder or sector from a 729K disk is physically capable of reading your archive disk (a floppy drive reads one track at a time, so it can't know what is going on on the rest of the disk). whether you have software problems is another matter... I once received a 1.44M disk which turned out to contain a 720K iumage using the first 9 sectors of each track, the other 9 conteined garbage. This caused a lot of 'fun'... The hardwre could read it, but until I realised what it was I had difficulty even getting a directory from it. > > > But it's worse than that. Things that I can do (and do do) on my 80x86 PC > > are not so easy to do on modern machines. > > What x86 kit do you run? Wel, there's this PC for a start. It's a much-hacked PC/AT (8MHz version) using the origianl motherboard and many of the original expansion cards. The main changes are a 486 kldugeboard in the 286 socket (so I can run linux), an earle IDE controller linked to a now-ancient drive, a 1.44M 3.5" floppy (as well as the origianl 1.2M one of course), a patch to the ROM BIOS to modify the drive parameter tables (2 extra EPROMs and some address deocnding logic fitted ot the mainboard, kludgewires all over theplace), and various other piggy-back chip mods to correct timing problems, add a drive-in-use LED, and so on. Other 80x86 machines I own include IBM PCs, PC/XTs, a PC/XT286 and a PCjr. A couple of other clones I think, then a DEC Rainbow, RM Nimbus, HP150, HP150-II, HP110, HP Portable+, HP95LX , 100LX and Omnigo 100, a Sirus (Victo 9000) and doubtless others that I've forgotten about. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jul 25 13:29:53 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2010 19:29:53 +0100 (BST) Subject: Serial interfaces (was Re: Any former Psion 5 owners out there?) In-Reply-To: <4C4BB1B6.5080002@tx.rr.com> from "Charlie Carothers" at Jul 24, 10 10:38:30 pm Message-ID: > Hi Tony, > I'm sort of surprised to hear you say that RS232 ports on a PCI card are > OK with you. Maybe it's because I'm primarily a software guy, but for Well, I'll admit I've never used them, I don't own a machine with a PCI bus (and electornically, I regard PCI as a right royal kludge!). But I'd assumed you got somerthing that looked like a 8250 (or a 16550 or similar) at a particualr base address, and you could just access the I/O registers as usual. Is that not the case? > some purposes I loathe RS232 ports on PCI cards almost as much as I do > USB. I think my loathing of both technologies is much the same as > yours, in that in some cases they both make it more difficult for me to > do precisely what I wish to do. Just as one example, I have some legacy > DOS-based software containing its own UART driver. I don't even want to > think about trying to make that work on a PCI card RS232 port. What is the great problem with doing this? > > BTW, I don't mean to imply that I unconditionally loathe these two bits > of technology - just when they get in my way. At other times, I greatly I hate any technology that gets in my way, or which makes my life harder. Unfortuantely, it apprars that the old joke 'user friendly == hacker hostile' is all too tru, and that an awful lot of modern stuff may well be user friendly in that it's easy to get it to do what the manfuacturers intend, but it sure isn't easy to get it to do what I want.. Having seen bits of PCI card design, I am glad I design cards for my classics with ISA, Unibus, DIO-1, etc buses. Those I can understand and wire up a card for any one of them in a couple of hours... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jul 25 13:03:59 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2010 19:03:59 +0100 (BST) Subject: Serial interfaces (was Re: Any former Psion 5 owners out there?) In-Reply-To: from "Richard" at Jul 24, 10 03:24:20 pm Message-ID: > > > In article , > Liam Proven writes: > > > [USB dongles] work *remarkably* well with even old printers [...] > > but not any other parallel-port device, AFAIK. > > But there's nothing inherent in the USB spec that prevents this as a > possibility, its simply the kind of USB dongle that people have built > to date, right? Absolutely (as far as I know). Somebody mentioned the FTDI chips that essentially give you GPIO-like bit-level parallel I/O from a USB port, you could probably use something like that -- with the appropriate driver software o nthe hsot -- totalk to any device that was designed to plug into a PC printer port. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jul 25 13:32:01 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2010 19:32:01 +0100 (BST) Subject: TEAC FD-55GFR and Deviceside In-Reply-To: from "Geoffrey Reed" at Jul 24, 10 10:16:46 pm Message-ID: > > Doesn't the TEAC have a fairly beefy head load solenoid? According to the service manual I have, it's an option. There are also 'Contact Stop/Start'(meaning the heads were in contact with the disk when it stopped or started) drives which don't have a head load solenoid. -tony From teoz at neo.rr.com Sun Jul 25 14:16:36 2010 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2010 15:16:36 -0400 Subject: Lot of PDP-11/84 on ebay in Boston References: <201007251123.11627.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <9B846BAC351844FF87C700395E4A64A0@dell8300> So what are they worth individually? From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jul 25 14:25:15 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2010 12:25:15 -0700 Subject: TEAC FD-55GFR and Deviceside In-Reply-To: <20100725094953.P50667@shell.lmi.net> References: , <4C4B6D94.4789.2FFFE14@cclist.sydex.com>, <20100725094953.P50667@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4C4C2D2B.8432.EFB04A@cclist.sydex.com> On 25 Jul 2010 at 9:56, Fred Cisin wrote: > THESE DAYS, we're looking at used, or maye NOS, so we're shopping by > model number, and the original intended market is meaningless. If I > find a 55GFR, I have no idea what market it was marketed for. ...and Teac drives can vary wildly with respect to jumpers and circuitry. Most of the 55GFRs that I see nowadays are -7xxx models. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jul 25 14:37:53 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2010 12:37:53 -0700 Subject: Serial interfaces (was Re: Any former Psion 5 owners out there?) In-Reply-To: References: from "Richard" at Jul 24, 10 03:24:20 pm, Message-ID: <4C4C3021.11123.FB4030@cclist.sydex.com> On 25 Jul 2010 at 19:03, Tony Duell wrote: > Absolutely (as far as I know). Somebody mentioned the FTDI chips that > essentially give you GPIO-like bit-level parallel I/O from a USB port, > you could probably use something like that -- with the appropriate > driver software o nthe hsot -- totalk to any device that was designed > to plug into a PC printer port. A lot of parallel-printer-port devices use the 8 data lines only for output, then use status lines as input on a nibble basis. I don't know about using the FTDI to do that. On the other hand, taking a commodity microcontroller and using it as a USB device and thence to drive the parallel port is much less expensive, particularly if you can get by with USB 1.1 speeds. The V- USB project, for example, an open-source implementation for almost any AVR uC. I intend to do just that with the MicroSolutions Backpack drive, which essentially uses NEC 765 FDC commands over the parallel port, so access to all FDC registers is possible. The thing has a bit of serial NVRAM (X2444 type) on board to hold floppy type information and will handle 2 drives (and probably 4 with a few jumpers). There was a fellow on eBay selling NOS Backpack floppy drives for $0.99 each, so I picked up a bunch. Years ago, I reverse-engineered the interface to these things, so I have everything that I need. --Chuck From teoz at neo.rr.com Sun Jul 25 14:40:27 2010 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2010 15:40:27 -0400 Subject: TEAC FD-55GFR and Deviceside References: , <4C4B6D94.4789.2FFFE14@cclist.sydex.com>, <20100725094953.P50667@shell.lmi.net> <4C4C2D2B.8432.EFB04A@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chuck Guzis" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Sunday, July 25, 2010 3:25 PM Subject: Re: TEAC FD-55GFR and Deviceside > On 25 Jul 2010 at 9:56, Fred Cisin wrote: > >> THESE DAYS, we're looking at used, or maye NOS, so we're shopping by >> model number, and the original intended market is meaningless. If I >> find a 55GFR, I have no idea what market it was marketed for. > > ...and Teac drives can vary wildly with respect to jumpers and > circuitry. Most of the 55GFRs that I see nowadays are -7xxx models. > > > --Chuck > Are you guys looking for a specific submodel? I am pretty sure I have a bunch of 55GFRs on the shelf. From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jul 25 14:54:09 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2010 12:54:09 -0700 Subject: TEAC FD-55GFR and Deviceside In-Reply-To: <20100725094953.P50667@shell.lmi.net> References: , <4C4B6D94.4789.2FFFE14@cclist.sydex.com>, <20100725094953.P50667@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4C4C33F1.22246.10A254D@cclist.sydex.com> On 25 Jul 2010 at 9:56, Fred Cisin wrote: > THESE DAYS, we're looking at used, or maye NOS, so we're shopping by > model number, and the original intended market is meaningless. If I > find a 55GFR, I have no idea what market it was marketed for. Really? The last pair of FD55GFRs that I picked up a couple of months ago at the local recycling store were still in retail packaging, where it says "High density 1.2MB internal floppy drive for IBM PC/AT and compatible computers." Set me back $5 the each. Seems pretty clear what the intended market was to me! BTW, the box identifies it only as an "FD-55"; no "GFR", but it's a 7000-series GFR all jumpered to drop right into a 5170 or clone. --Chuck From glen.slick at gmail.com Sun Jul 25 15:00:12 2010 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2010 13:00:12 -0700 Subject: Serial interfaces (was Re: Any former Psion 5 owners out there?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Jul 25, 2010 at 11:10 AM, Tony Duell wrote: > > I've enver seen the actual USB spec, but I can think of no reason why > this is impossible. > > Incidentally, is the USB spec -- a low level one describing just what > goes on on the 2 signal wires, etc -- available anywhere, or would I have > to sign NDAs, etc, to get it? > http://www.usb.org/developers/docs/ USB 2.0 Specification Universal Serial Bus Revision 2.0 specification (.zip file format, size 11.1 MB) provides the technical details to understand USB requirements and design USB compatible products. Modifications to the USB specification are made through Engineering Change Notices (ECNs). http://www.usb.org/developers/docs/usb_20_052510.zip From pontus at update.uu.se Sun Jul 25 15:14:58 2010 From: pontus at update.uu.se (Pontus) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2010 22:14:58 +0200 Subject: The Chipophone In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C4C9B42.7020902@update.uu.se> Liam Proven wrote: > Not exactly retro in its build, but it might interest folk hereabouts. > > http://www.linusakesson.net/chipophone/index.php > > The Chipophone is an electronic organ whose guts have been replaced > with a pair of microcontrollers to make it into a 1980s-style 8-bit > synthesizer, for playing classic videogame chiptunes live. It helps > that its creator is an excellent player of such things. > > For example, Rob Hubbard's /Spellbound/ from 1986: > http://www.linusakesson.net/chipophone/spellbound.php > > Linus rocks! You should take a look at his other projects as well :) /P From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Jul 25 15:22:06 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2010 16:22:06 -0400 Subject: Serial interfaces (was Re: Any former Psion 5 owners out there?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C4C9CEE.3010801@neurotica.com> On 7/25/10 2:10 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > Incidentlaly, what do the USB-serial adapters do? I assume they don't > respond to acesses to the I/O ports conentionally used for PC serial > ports. No, they don't do that. They are manipulated by OS device drivers to provide driver-level interfaces that appear as serial ports. These drivers present the same driver-level API that the drivers for an 8250/16550 sitting on an ISA bus would. On UNIXish systems, they usually appear as /dev/tty* and /dev/cu* like any other serial port, and all the standard ioctl() calls are implemented. They actually work very well; I use them daily and have never had problems with them. Interestingly, some of the higher-end USB<->serial adapters, notably the Keyspan units, are implemented with USB-enabled microcontrollers which can be reprogrammed. If you do this, setting uncommon word widths or baud rates shouldn't be a problem. People are squirting new code into these Keyspan adapters using Linux and free mcs51 compilers like SDCC (a very good C compiler for mcs51, Z80, some PICs, and more, I use it a lot, and I host a chunk of its build farm). Here's a page describing the basics of this: http://www.hhhh.org/wiml/proj/keyspan.html So as you can see, these devices don't really present many restrictions to hard-core hardware hackers. It's just *different*, that's all. Since I've never done much with PCs, I'm not accustomed to dinking around with I/O ports 0x378 and 0x278 directly (and honestly I'd never want to, I don't use PCs here anyway), and that's just about the only functionality that can't easily be implemented by these things. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From pontus at update.uu.se Sun Jul 25 15:22:44 2010 From: pontus at update.uu.se (Pontus) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2010 22:22:44 +0200 Subject: Help with international shipping Message-ID: <4C4C9D14.5000200@update.uu.se> Hi There is a DEC manual the size of VMS manual ring binder for sale on Ebay. I would really like to have it! The seller wont ship internationally, but I'm in Sweden. Would anyone like to be my proxy? I'll bid and pay the seller but I need someone to receive it in United States and ship it to me. Obviously I'll pay for shipping to Sweden and a bit extra for the trouble. Please contact me offlist. Kind Regards, Pontus. From pontus at update.uu.se Sun Jul 25 15:23:41 2010 From: pontus at update.uu.se (Pontus) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2010 22:23:41 +0200 Subject: Lot of PDP-11/84 on ebay in Boston In-Reply-To: <9B846BAC351844FF87C700395E4A64A0@dell8300> References: <201007251123.11627.pat@computer-refuge.org> <9B846BAC351844FF87C700395E4A64A0@dell8300> Message-ID: <4C4C9D4D.2090807@update.uu.se> Teo Zenios wrote: > So what are they worth individually? Depends on who needs it and how badly :) This has been discussed to death in various threads. I would not pay that money for that computer. /P From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Jul 25 15:30:54 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2010 16:30:54 -0400 Subject: Serial interfaces (was Re: Any former Psion 5 owners out there?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C4C9EFE.9050804@neurotica.com> On 7/25/10 2:03 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >>> [USB dongles] work *remarkably* well with even old printers [...] >>> but not any other parallel-port device, AFAIK. >> >> But there's nothing inherent in the USB spec that prevents this as a >> possibility, its simply the kind of USB dongle that people have built >> to date, right? > > Absolutely (as far as I know). Somebody mentioned the FTDI chips that > essentially give you GPIO-like bit-level parallel I/O from a USB port, > you could probably use something like that -- with the appropriate driver > software o nthe hsot -- totalk to any device that was designed to plug > into a PC printer port. Yes, this would be pretty easy to do. Using the (free) libraries to talk to these chips, it's not hard to bit-bang pretty much any protocol. Tomorrow for work, I'll be using one to frob an SPI-interfaced AC power metering chip, to explore its capabilities a bit before I design a circuit around it. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From pat at computer-refuge.org Sun Jul 25 15:47:19 2010 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2010 16:47:19 -0400 Subject: Lot of PDP-11/84 on ebay in Boston In-Reply-To: <9B846BAC351844FF87C700395E4A64A0@dell8300> References: <201007251123.11627.pat@computer-refuge.org> <9B846BAC351844FF87C700395E4A64A0@dell8300> Message-ID: <201007251647.19904.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Sunday, July 25, 2010, Teo Zenios wrote: > So what are they worth individually? Not as scrap? I'd consider $100/each a really good deal. I