From brain at jbrain.com Mon Feb 1 01:03:56 2010 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Mon, 01 Feb 2010 01:03:56 -0600 Subject: Minimig (was new non-x86 mobos) In-Reply-To: <20100106203601.GB7096@mail.loomcom.com> References: <4B44E738.4030303@e-bbes.com> <6dbe3c381001061210i2996f576i9c9b8e5d13c487cf@mail.gmail.com> <20100106203601.GB7096@mail.loomcom.com> Message-ID: <4B667CDC.5090100@jbrain.com> On 1/6/2010 2:36 PM, Seth Morabito wrote: Sorry to dredge up an old topic, but I meant to respond and it's taken this long. > > Probably the most interesting thing about it is that it's something of a > mystery! The original project was designed by Jeri Ellsworth (of the C64 > DTV project), but the schematics and design docs were permanently lost > and Jeri moved on to new projects. Even now, the maintainers are making > new discoveries about how the damn thing is put together and how to > write cores for it. They're reverse-engineering their own product. > Due to some significant disagreements over the design of the PCB and compensation, Jeri all but abandoned the C1 and directed her efforts to the DTV. Jens, who had the money invested, took the boards, some other FPGA developers, and went his own way. The truth of who's right and who's wrong may never be known, but that is why Jen has precious little of the information. It's a shame, truly it is, because it could have been the minimig or a similar system, selling lots of units. As it is, its history is significantly marred by a disagreement between the designer and the manufacturer. Jim -- Jim Brain, Brain Innovations (X) brain at jbrain.com Dabbling in WWW, Embedded Systems, Old CBM computers, and Good Times! Home: http://www.jbrain.com From als at thangorodrim.de Mon Feb 1 01:57:54 2010 From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber) Date: Mon, 1 Feb 2010 08:57:54 +0100 Subject: 6809 SBC (was Editor religious wars (was Re: Museums)) In-Reply-To: <4B66204C.4050807@compsys.to> References: <4B6257C6.3090706@jetnet.ab.ca> <4B6262D4.70307@jetnet.ab.ca> <4B66204C.4050807@compsys.to> Message-ID: <20100201075754.GB10566@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> On Sun, Jan 31, 2010 at 07:29:00PM -0500, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > >Dave McGuire wrote: > >>>> And you do realize "PDP-11" spanned some two and a half decades >>>> and more >>>> than a dozen implementations with a huge range of processing power >>>> ranging from "wimpy" to "big clanging brass balls", right? >>> >>> Yes, but the PDP 11 was designed to have raw power from the original >>> design. OK, they goofed on a basic address space of 18 bits. >> >> 16 bits, actually. The two MMU architectures extended that to 18 and >> 22 bits. I wouldn't call it a goof considering the first one came >> out in 1970. For a small lab minicomputer in 1970, 64KB isn't bad at >> all. > > Considering the cost of CORE memory in 1970, 64KB was > much larger than any PDP-11 at that time. 8KB was a > common system. Even up to around 1975, I don't think > there was an MMU available in any case. Does anyone > know when the MMU was first used with more than 64KB > of memory for the system? > > As for total memory available to use for temporary > work space, when I run Ersatz-11 under WXP on a > system with 4 GB of physical memory (I agree that > WXP wastes almost 1 GB of that memory), Not the fault of Windows. For a 32 bit PC system with 4 GB of RAM, up to 1 GB of RAM is 'lost' because up to 1 GB of the address space is used for the PCI address space (i.e. memory mapped access to peripherals[0]). It can be quite bit less (such as 500 MB), or up to the full 1 GB - that depends on the specific hardware. Kind regards, Alex. [0] Although with current PC mainboard, a lot of those 'periphericals' are on the same mainboard, even part of the mainboard chipset. -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison From ploopster at gmail.com Mon Feb 1 02:07:41 2010 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 01 Feb 2010 03:07:41 -0500 Subject: Free for pickup In-Reply-To: <000e01caa29f$29640140$6501a8c0@HP24150918428> References: <990883.74434.qm@web55304.mail.re4.yahoo.com> <000e01caa29f$29640140$6501a8c0@HP24150918428> Message-ID: <4B668BCD.8050207@gmail.com> Where are you located? Peace... Sridhar Daniel Snyder wrote: > Still thinning my vintage stuff.. > Go to http://picasaweb.google.com/DanielDSnyder for a look, category is: > Old stuff looking for a new home > > Available is: > > 1 - Centronics 761 KSR - serial > 1 - Centronics 779 - parallel > 1 - Centronics 781 - serial? > 1 - IBM PS/2 TV - complete > 2 - IBM PS/2 model 30-286 > 1 - IBM PS/2 model 25 B&W > 1 - IBM PS/2 model 50 > 2 - IBM PS/2 model 70 386 & 486 > 1 - IBM PS/2 model 80 with Kingston 486 > 1 - IBM PS/2 B&W monitor > 2 - IBM PS/2 keyboards > > Contact me offine. I really do not want to ship this stuff, but I am > willing to relay > the stuff and at this moment there is no time limit, I am not going to > toss the stuff.. > > Note all items have been stored in my home and have been known to work. I > know for a fact the Centronics printers have been in my home for almost > 30 years. > > I need the space, would like to pass the items to someone else to > enjoy.. whatever > the reason may be, I have narrowed my focus to VAX, Alpha and Integrity > based VMS > boxes. This is one of the few constants in my career in the last 31 years. > > Dan Snyder > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Al Hartman" > To: > Sent: Saturday, January 30, 2010 9:00 AM > Subject: Re: Free for pickup > > >> Of the items I posted earlier, the following is still available: >> >> Qty 2 - HP Laserjet IIIP Printers >> >> Box of Misc Network Adapter cards, ISA mixed 8 and 16 bit. Mostly 16 >> bit. All are Novell, Windows 3.x, Windows 95 and Lantastic Compatible. >> >> I have the following to add: >> >> 1 ZIP 100 Drive and Power Supply >> 1 Ditto Tape Backup Drive (Not sure if it still works due to age of >> rubber rollers) >> 1 Apple Imagewriter II >> >> Items are located in Keansburg, NJ 07734 >> >> Contact me off-list via PM. >> >> Thanks! >> >> Al Hartman >> >> > From pete at dunnington.plus.com Mon Feb 1 02:32:36 2010 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Mon, 01 Feb 2010 08:32:36 +0000 Subject: 6809 SBC In-Reply-To: <4B6668AF.6080007@tx.rr.com> References: <4B65EC26.2040509@dunnington.plus.com> <4B6668AF.6080007@tx.rr.com> Message-ID: <4B6691A4.3060201@dunnington.plus.com> On 01/02/2010 05:37, CSquared wrote: > Pete Turnbull wrote: >> I am really puzzled by this. The ACIA has no hardware reset line, but >> it's very easy to send it a master reset command in software. > I'm pretty sure they were Motorola parts. As I told Geoffrey, it has > been a very long time - like probably 40 years - and I've forgotten a > lot of the details, and just sort of remember the pain. I think the > ACIA would somehow get into a state where it would not pay attention to > the master reset command. I don't recall that ever happening to me, but I can well believe it :-) -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From ragooman at comcast.net Mon Feb 1 07:22:53 2010 From: ragooman at comcast.net (Dan Roganti) Date: Mon, 01 Feb 2010 08:22:53 -0500 Subject: Reminder for Workshop: Installing CP/M on your S-100 computer , signup begins today Feb.1st Message-ID: <4B66D5AD.8060205@comcast.net> Reminder: Installing CP/M on your S-100 computer workshop signup begins today Feb.1st For the vintage computer enthusiasts, in conjunction with the MARCH Computer Museum and the Delaware Hackerspace group, we like to invite you to a new workshop this year involving vintage computers. This new workshop is about CP/M and it will teach you how to install, build and configure CP/M on your vintage S-100 computer system. All the necessary steps are shown during the lecture and afterward is a hands-on training session which will let you upgrade your S-100 computer with a floppy disk based system and CP/M. Instruction and lecture will be provided by Rich Cini of the Altair32 emulator project. Please look at the link below about the workshop checklist for a detailed list of requirements about this workshop. You'll need to know what to prepare beforehand to get ready for this workshop. Ask any questions you have about getting ready before the start of the workshop. A knowledge of assembly programming, S-100 hardware, and CP/M operation is required for this workshop. Please do not come unprepared. We currently have seats for 12 workbenches for those who want the hands-on training. An additional 10 seats are available for those who like to watch and learn. If we happen to get more requests for this workshop, we will try to accommodate as many people as possible. This is a first come, first serve event, sorry, but we cannot accommodate latecomers. Once the registration opens, please specify which seat you like to reserve. The workshop is located very close to I-95 for those that are drivng. More information can be found at the Delaware Hackerspace website below. Workshop Checklist - view message thread http://www.vintagecomputer.net/browse_thread.cfm?id=310 Address: 103 W. 7th St. Wilmington, DE 19801 Registration opens: Feb. 1st, 2010 Signup deadline: Apr. 1st, 2010 Workshop Date: Apr. 10th, 2010 hours: Sat: 12noon - 7pm SPONSORS: Bill Degnan http://www.vintagecomputer.net/ Delaware Hackerspace http://hackerspaces.org/wiki/Delaware_Hackerspace Altair32 emulator project http://www.altair32.com/ MARCH Computer Museum http://www.midatlanticretro.org/ Please send any questions offline. Dan Roganti ragooman at comcast.net see you there ! -- http://www.vintagecomputer.net/ragooman/ From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Mon Feb 1 07:32:07 2010 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 01 Feb 2010 07:32:07 -0600 Subject: 6809 SBC In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B66D7D7.7020308@gmail.com> Tony Duell wrote: >> Tony Duell wrote: >>>> Having learned assembly language programming on the beautifully >>>> simple architecture and instruction set of the 6800, the Byte magazine >>>> article linked to below that I read when it was originally published >>>> really impressed me. In the 6809 they made one of the earliest efforts >>>> I know of to really tweak an already great uP instruction set based upon >>>> an analysis of existing software: >>> I found the 6809 to be by far the nicest 8-bit CPU I ever worked with. >>> The instruction set was simple and very orthogonal, the fact that you had >>> various relative addressing modes meant you could write truely >>> position-independant code, there were 2 stack points, and so on. Unlike >>> certain chips I could name, there were no major misfeatures that I came >>> across. >>> >>> Of course the problem (as we all know) is that it came out too late. By >>> that tine everybody was using the Z80 or 6502. Oh well. >> Around here, it was Apple ]['s and C-64's. The Coco was the only cost >> 6809 machine I can think of, but RS designed for BASIC rather than >> business machine. RS did have a 68000 machine, but I think the next year >> they switched to in house PC clones. > > The only common 6809 machine in the UK was the Dragon, which was based > on the same Motorola application note as the CoCo. Of cource the CoCo was > also sold here (althohgh AFAIK the CoCo3 never was). > > Acorn made a 6809 CPU board for their Eurocard based System machines, it > normally ran Flex09. It's not easy to find. No... I spent many a year searching, too. I have the manual, which I think includes the schematic (if not, I got that separately), but I never did come across the physical board. > The curious Tiger used a 68B09 for I/O (along with a Z80A for the main > processor and a 7220 graphics chip). The HH machine? I've never seen a real one, but it sounded like an interesting beast. > There were, of course, various special-purpose embeeded 6809 controller > boards. I do have a Control Universal 6809 board (I don't recall if it's System bus or STE now), so making that 'do' something is a possibility one day. I pulled a whole stack of 6809s off some scrap telephone exchange boards many years ago. I'm not sure whose product it was - AFAIK BT never used an exchange which had 6809s, so it must have been some kind of private branch exchange. >>> It always suprised me that hre BBC micro used the 6502 rather than the >>> 6809. By the time the Beeb was designed, Acorn had made a 6809 processor >>> board for their System machines, so they must have had experience with >>> the chip. THe Beeb is nice, but a Beeb with a 6809 processor would have >>> been something else :-) >> I thought the BBC micro was designed, just before the 6809 came out. > > I'm not sure. The Beeb was 1982 or so. I thought the 6809 was out by > then. If not, it implies Acorn were still working on their System > machines, which seems a little curious. I'm not sure quite when Acorn sold the rights to the System range to Control Universal, but 1984 sticks in my head for some reason. If so, it implies that in 1982 they still thought there was some mileage left in the System hardware. I suppose that at the very least there were still quite a few System-based fileservers around. Remember that there was a *lot* of in-house expertise in 6502 development; the Atom was almost a "System rack in a home computer box", just as the BBC was an "Atom on steroids". I'm sure they considered other CPUs, but it made sense to stick with what they knew. cheers Jules From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Feb 1 08:14:08 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 1 Feb 2010 09:14:08 -0500 Subject: 6809 SBC (was Editor religious wars (was Re: Museums)) In-Reply-To: <20100201075754.GB10566@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> References: <4B6257C6.3090706@jetnet.ab.ca> <4B6262D4.70307@jetnet.ab.ca> <4B66204C.4050807@compsys.to> <20100201075754.GB10566@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> Message-ID: <32CE1032-0213-4D18-B500-F9C7ED232139@neurotica.com> On Feb 1, 2010, at 2:57 AM, Alexander Schreiber wrote: >> As for total memory available to use for temporary >> work space, when I run Ersatz-11 under WXP on a >> system with 4 GB of physical memory (I agree that >> WXP wastes almost 1 GB of that memory), > > Not the fault of Windows. For a 32 bit PC system with 4 GB of > RAM, up to 1 GB of RAM is 'lost' because up to 1 GB of > the address space is used for the PCI address space (i.e. > memory mapped access to peripherals[0]). It can be quite bit > less (such as 500 MB), or up to the full 1 GB - that depends > on the specific hardware. The MMU can easily get around this. And indeed, I don't have this problem with any other OS. Does Windows not understand PAE hardware? -Dave > -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From pat at computer-refuge.org Mon Feb 1 08:43:32 2010 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Mon, 1 Feb 2010 09:43:32 -0500 Subject: 6809 SBC (was Editor religious wars (was Re: Museums)) In-Reply-To: <32CE1032-0213-4D18-B500-F9C7ED232139@neurotica.com> References: <20100201075754.GB10566@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> <32CE1032-0213-4D18-B500-F9C7ED232139@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <201002010943.32903.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Monday 01 February 2010, Dave McGuire wrote: > On Feb 1, 2010, at 2:57 AM, Alexander Schreiber wrote: > >> As for total memory available to use for temporary > >> work space, when I run Ersatz-11 under WXP on a > >> system with 4 GB of physical memory (I agree that > >> WXP wastes almost 1 GB of that memory), > > > > Not the fault of Windows. For a 32 bit PC system with 4 GB of > > RAM, up to 1 GB of RAM is 'lost' because up to 1 GB of > > the address space is used for the PCI address space (i.e. > > memory mapped access to peripherals[0]). It can be quite bit > > less (such as 500 MB), or up to the full 1 GB - that depends > > on the specific hardware. > > The MMU can easily get around this. And indeed, I don't have this > problem with any other OS. Does Windows not understand PAE hardware? Not all PC chipsets support the address lines to do this. My friend's Core2 Duo box (yes, a 64-bit machine) doesn't support more than 3.25GB of RAM because of this. It's "cost cutting" I guess. :( Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Feb 1 08:52:45 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 1 Feb 2010 09:52:45 -0500 Subject: 6809 SBC (was Editor religious wars (was Re: Museums)) In-Reply-To: <201002010943.32903.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <20100201075754.GB10566@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> <32CE1032-0213-4D18-B500-F9C7ED232139@neurotica.com> <201002010943.32903.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <92CB0159-B003-40D8-A6E9-92D1C5EB7C56@neurotica.com> On Feb 1, 2010, at 9:43 AM, Patrick Finnegan wrote: >>>> As for total memory available to use for temporary >>>> work space, when I run Ersatz-11 under WXP on a >>>> system with 4 GB of physical memory (I agree that >>>> WXP wastes almost 1 GB of that memory), >>> >>> Not the fault of Windows. For a 32 bit PC system with 4 GB of >>> RAM, up to 1 GB of RAM is 'lost' because up to 1 GB of >>> the address space is used for the PCI address space (i.e. >>> memory mapped access to peripherals[0]). It can be quite bit >>> less (such as 500 MB), or up to the full 1 GB - that depends >>> on the specific hardware. >> >> The MMU can easily get around this. And indeed, I don't have this >> problem with any other OS. Does Windows not understand PAE hardware? > > Not all PC chipsets support the address lines to do this. My friend's > Core2 Duo box (yes, a 64-bit machine) doesn't support more than 3.25GB > of RAM because of this. > > It's "cost cutting" I guess. :( Holy cow, that's pretty nasty! Machines that can take that much memory (and machines for which one would reasonably expect to have that much memory) in which it won't actually function? I've never seen such a machine. I hope I don't ever. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From rickb at bensene.com Mon Feb 1 09:01:28 2010 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Mon, 1 Feb 2010 07:01:28 -0800 Subject: TU56 Heads In-Reply-To: <4B667CDC.5090100@jbrain.com> References: <4B44E738.4030303@e-bbes.com> <6dbe3c381001061210i2996f576i9c9b8e5d13c487cf@mail.gmail.com><20100106203601.GB7096@mail.loomcom.com> <4B667CDC.5090100@jbrain.com> Message-ID: Hi, all, I have two DEC TU56 (DecTape) read/write heads which appear to be in good shape, though I have no way to test them. Is there any interest in these? I don't want to give them away, so I am entertaining offers, Buyer would also need to pay shipping. I really don't want to let them go, but I need some cash. Email me with your offer. Rick Bensene From cclist at sydex.com Mon Feb 1 09:09:23 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 01 Feb 2010 07:09:23 -0800 Subject: More Free stuff In-Reply-To: <000501caa2a8$c961b670$6501a8c0@HP24150918428> References: , <000501caa2a8$c961b670$6501a8c0@HP24150918428> Message-ID: <4B667E23.30492.1D3D69@cclist.sydex.com> On 31 Jan 2010 at 14:08, Daniel Snyder wrote: > Micro Cornucopia magazines: > Issue 1 to 21 inclusive. others up to 1989 If someone wants to assemble a complete set, I believe that I have the remainder of the issues until the magazine closed. Free for shipping or pickup (Eugene, OR). --Chuck From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Feb 1 09:41:14 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 1 Feb 2010 07:41:14 -0800 (PST) Subject: 6809 SBC (was Editor religious wars (was Re: Museums)) In-Reply-To: <92CB0159-B003-40D8-A6E9-92D1C5EB7C56@neurotica.com> from Dave McGuire at "Feb 1, 10 09:52:45 am" Message-ID: <201002011541.o11FfEZ7011462@floodgap.com> > > Not all PC chipsets support the address lines to do this. My friend's > > Core2 Duo box (yes, a 64-bit machine) doesn't support more than 3.25GB > > of RAM because of this. > > It's "cost cutting" I guess. :( > > Holy cow, that's pretty nasty! Machines that can take that much > memory (and machines for which one would reasonably expect to have > that much memory) in which it won't actually function? I've never > seen such a machine. I hope I don't ever. Every time I drive by Worst Buy ... -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- I can't type any long sentiments in this .sig file because it's not wide enou From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Feb 1 09:46:40 2010 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Mon, 01 Feb 2010 08:46:40 -0700 Subject: 6809 SBC In-Reply-To: <4B6691A4.3060201@dunnington.plus.com> References: <4B65EC26.2040509@dunnington.plus.com> <4B6668AF.6080007@tx.rr.com> <4B6691A4.3060201@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <4B66F760.1050100@jetnet.ab.ca> Pete Turnbull wrote: > On 01/02/2010 05:37, CSquared wrote: >> Pete Turnbull wrote: > >>> I am really puzzled by this. The ACIA has no hardware reset line, but >>> it's very easy to send it a master reset command in software. > >> I'm pretty sure they were Motorola parts. As I told Geoffrey, it has >> been a very long time - like probably 40 years - and I've forgotten a >> lot of the details, and just sort of remember the pain. I think the >> ACIA would somehow get into a state where it would not pay attention >> to the master reset command. > > I don't recall that ever happening to me, but I can well believe it :-) > Intel parks I can see, Motorola parts no! From ray at arachelian.com Mon Feb 1 10:18:05 2010 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Mon, 01 Feb 2010 11:18:05 -0500 Subject: Classic Epson printer emulators? In-Reply-To: <8dd2d95c1001301000o2b1de736ge2ae894ed58efb94@mail.gmail.com> References: <8dd2d95c1001301000o2b1de736ge2ae894ed58efb94@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B66FEBD.7030802@arachelian.com> Michael Kerpan wrote: > Are there any free or open-source programs that can convert raw ESC/P > (Epson printer code) data into bitmap images or PDFs or something? > Many classic home computer programs rely on having a printer of this > sort in order to print, and while many emulators have a way to dump > serial or parallel output to a file, the only interpreters I can find > to turn that raw data into something useful are commercial programs > that I can't really justify the purchase of, given my student > budget... > Not sure of Epson ones, but there is one for the Apple Imagewriter I/ADMP which is part of LisaEm. It's based on a C-Itoh 8510 (I think). So if that's enough for your needs, you could rip out that piece of LisaEm and use it. If you have full docs on specific Epson printers that you're looking to emulate, somewhere on the net, that might be useful too. From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Mon Feb 1 10:19:05 2010 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 01 Feb 2010 10:19:05 -0600 Subject: 6809 SBC In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B66FEF9.8010104@gmail.com> Tony Duell wrote: >> Hi! When I designed the N8VEM 6809 host processor it is loosely based on an >> article I read for the BBC computer called "Dragon in the tube". I am not > > THe Dragon was, of course, the most common 6809-based computer in the UK. Yes, there never was an official 6809 copro from Acorn - although there have been at least two homebrew ones (not including the linking of the Dragon). >> very familiar with the UK microcomputers but apparently 6809 "coprocessors" >> were fairly common peripherals on their Z80 and 6502 designs. I used a > > Were they? I've never heard of one. > > Acorn never (AFAIK) made a 6809 second processor for the BBC micro. The > original series of second processors (in 'chesse wedge' cases to fit > alongside the BBC micro) were the 65C02, Z80A, 32016 (originally 16032 > :-)) and ARM 1. There was also a 32016 board with 4 times as much RAM > that was used in the Acorn Cambridge WOrkstation No, there was no 'official' 6809 that I know of. My list of commercial ones is as follows (notional OSes in square brackets): Acorn 6502 Acorn 65C02 Acorn 65C102 (Master internal TUBE) Acorn Z80 [CP/M] Acorn ARM-1 AEK Acorn ARM-1 A500 (*not* the standalone machine) [Arthur, ARX, RISC OS] Acorn 32016 "small board" (256k/1M) [PANOS, poss. Xenix or ARX] Acorn 32016 "large board" (1M/4M) [PANOS, poss. Xenix or ARX] Acorn 32016 (Master internal TUBE) [PANOS, poss. Xenix or ARX] Acorn 80186 (Master internal TUBE) 512K [DOS+/GEM] Acorn 80186 (Master internal TUBE) 1M [DOS+/GEM] Acorn 80286 [DOS+/GEM likely] Torch Z80 "Communicator" [CP/N] Torch Z80 "Tosca" (with local serial comms) [CP/N] Torch 68000 "Neptune" [Uniplus, CP/N] Torch 68000 "Atlas" [Uniplus, CP/N] Torch 80188 "Graduate" [MSDOS] Cumana 68008 "Upgrade" [OS-9] PEDL Z80 [unknown] Crombie Anderson Associates 68000 "Casper" [FLEX] And known "homebrews": Dragon/beeb hybrid 6809 Graham Toal's 6809 Jonathan Harston's PDP-11 Acorn's VAX* Sprow's ARM7 * I have confirmation that it really did exist, but nobody seems to recall exact details. Near as I can tell, it ran a serial link between the BBC micro and the VAX though (rather than TUBE or 1MHz bus), so it's perhaps a loose definition of coprocessor... > Is this article available on-line anywhere? Or do you have a reference to > it? It sounds as though it might be worth reading. I have it, but I'm only finding scans of the second part on the server right now (from Electronics and Computing Monthly, September 1985). I think the first part of the article from the previous month's issue is buried in an email somewhere - if nobody else has it (& you don't happen to have those magazines anyway) I can go hunting for it. The software (FLEX, customised for the BBC/Dragon hybrid) had to be sent away for, and I never could find a copy - if someone has it, I'd love a copy for the archive... (not least because hooking one of my Dragons to a beeb would be a fun project one day :-) cheers Jules From mtapley at swri.edu Mon Feb 1 10:25:38 2010 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Mon, 1 Feb 2010 10:25:38 -0600 Subject: 6809 SBC Message-ID: At 4:59 -0600 1/31/10, CSquared wrote: > All this discussion is making me want a >CoCo unfortunately. Never had one when they were "new" but always >thought they would be a lot of fun - maybe a garage sale will turn one >up some day. If you don't mind spending a bit, http://www.cloud9tech.com/ might be a useful alternative to eBay. Refurbished CoCo3's are among the other goodies on the site. For the "power user", you can get 512k memory expansions, a serial link to your PC to use as disk storage ("Drivewire"), NitOS-9 in ROM, 6309 CPU upgrade, IDE or SCSI adaptors, etc. etc. No connection other than as a satisfied customer. Hope this helps ... >Just what I don't need of course - yet another project or >piece of hardware. ... Oops. ;-) -- - Mark 210-379-4635 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Large Asteroids headed toward planets inhabited by beings that don't have technology adequate to stop them: Think of it as Evolution in Fast-Forward. From als at thangorodrim.de Mon Feb 1 10:27:47 2010 From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber) Date: Mon, 1 Feb 2010 17:27:47 +0100 Subject: 6809 SBC (was Editor religious wars (was Re: Museums)) In-Reply-To: <32CE1032-0213-4D18-B500-F9C7ED232139@neurotica.com> References: <4B6257C6.3090706@jetnet.ab.ca> <4B6262D4.70307@jetnet.ab.ca> <4B66204C.4050807@compsys.to> <20100201075754.GB10566@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> <32CE1032-0213-4D18-B500-F9C7ED232139@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20100201162747.GA7869@sam.angband.thangorodrim.de> On Mon, Feb 01, 2010 at 09:14:08AM -0500, Dave McGuire wrote: > On Feb 1, 2010, at 2:57 AM, Alexander Schreiber wrote: >>> As for total memory available to use for temporary >>> work space, when I run Ersatz-11 under WXP on a >>> system with 4 GB of physical memory (I agree that >>> WXP wastes almost 1 GB of that memory), >> >> Not the fault of Windows. For a 32 bit PC system with 4 GB of >> RAM, up to 1 GB of RAM is 'lost' because up to 1 GB of >> the address space is used for the PCI address space (i.e. >> memory mapped access to peripherals[0]). It can be quite bit >> less (such as 500 MB), or up to the full 1 GB - that depends >> on the specific hardware. > > The MMU can easily get around this. And indeed, I don't have this > problem with any other OS. Does Windows not understand PAE hardware? For values of 'easily' that require PAE, which complicates things and also has some limitations. For instance, no single process can access more than 4 GB without some ugly hackery remininescent of MS-DOS EMS. And then there is the fun and games that is MS Windows licensing, which limits what certain OS editions can do. If that isn't enough, there are also driver issues - not all drivers support PAE. Regards, Alex. -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Feb 1 10:45:07 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 1 Feb 2010 11:45:07 -0500 Subject: 6809 SBC (was Editor religious wars (was Re: Museums)) In-Reply-To: <20100201162747.GA7869@sam.angband.thangorodrim.de> References: <4B6257C6.3090706@jetnet.ab.ca> <4B6262D4.70307@jetnet.ab.ca> <4B66204C.4050807@compsys.to> <20100201075754.GB10566@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> <32CE1032-0213-4D18-B500-F9C7ED232139@neurotica.com> <20100201162747.GA7869@sam.angband.thangorodrim.de> Message-ID: On Feb 1, 2010, at 11:27 AM, Alexander Schreiber wrote: >>>> As for total memory available to use for temporary >>>> work space, when I run Ersatz-11 under WXP on a >>>> system with 4 GB of physical memory (I agree that >>>> WXP wastes almost 1 GB of that memory), >>> >>> Not the fault of Windows. For a 32 bit PC system with 4 GB of >>> RAM, up to 1 GB of RAM is 'lost' because up to 1 GB of >>> the address space is used for the PCI address space (i.e. >>> memory mapped access to peripherals[0]). It can be quite bit >>> less (such as 500 MB), or up to the full 1 GB - that depends >>> on the specific hardware. >> >> The MMU can easily get around this. And indeed, I don't have this >> problem with any other OS. Does Windows not understand PAE hardware? > > For values of 'easily' that require PAE, which complicates things and > also has some limitations. For instance, no single process can access > more than 4 GB without some ugly hackery remininescent of MS-DOS EMS. Well, we are talking x86 here...an architecture not exactly known for its forward-looking design. The PAE stuff seems to work ok. > And then there is the fun and games that is MS Windows licensing, > which > limits what certain OS editions can do. If that isn't enough, there > are > also driver issues - not all drivers support PAE. I've set up lots of Linux and a few Solaris x86 systems with PAE and have had zero problems with anything, ever. -Dave > -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Feb 1 10:51:07 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 1 Feb 2010 08:51:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: 6809 SBC In-Reply-To: <4B66FEF9.8010104@gmail.com> from Jules Richardson at "Feb 1, 10 10:19:05 am" Message-ID: <201002011651.o11Gp7d9016326@floodgap.com> > Yes, there never was an official 6809 copro from Acorn An unfortunate typo? -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- God is the tangential point between zero and infinity. -- Alfred Jarry ----- From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Feb 1 11:03:28 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 1 Feb 2010 12:03:28 -0500 Subject: 6809 SBC In-Reply-To: <201002011651.o11Gp7d9016326@floodgap.com> References: <201002011651.o11Gp7d9016326@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <6F36D7D4-8CE0-4976-A08B-EBCA9354FAEC@neurotica.com> On Feb 1, 2010, at 11:51 AM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> Yes, there never was an official 6809 copro from Acorn > > An unfortunate typo? soda -> keyboard -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From emu at e-bbes.com Mon Feb 1 11:20:48 2010 From: emu at e-bbes.com (e.stiebler) Date: Mon, 01 Feb 2010 10:20:48 -0700 Subject: 6809 SBC (was Editor religious wars (was Re: Museums)) In-Reply-To: References: <4B6257C6.3090706@jetnet.ab.ca> <4B6262D4.70307@jetnet.ab.ca> <4B66204C.4050807@compsys.to> <20100201075754.GB10566@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> <32CE1032-0213-4D18-B500-F9C7ED232139@neurotica.com> <20100201162747.GA7869@sam.angband.thangorodrim.de> Message-ID: <4B670D70.8010303@e-bbes.com> Dave McGuire wrote: >> And then there is the fun and games that is MS Windows licensing, which >> limits what certain OS editions can do. If that isn't enough, there are >> also driver issues - not all drivers support PAE. > > I've set up lots of Linux and a few Solaris x86 systems with PAE and > have had zero problems with anything, ever. Funny, how much truth can be in one sentence ;-) From rickb at bensene.com Mon Feb 1 11:39:11 2010 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Mon, 1 Feb 2010 09:39:11 -0800 Subject: TU56 Heads [Gone] In-Reply-To: References: <4B44E738.4030303@e-bbes.com> <6dbe3c381001061210i2996f576i9c9b8e5d13c487cf@mail.gmail.com><20100106203601.GB7096@mail.loomcom.com><4B667CDC.5090100@jbrain.com> Message-ID: The TU56 heads have all been claimed. -Rick From alhartman at yahoo.com Mon Feb 1 11:48:25 2010 From: alhartman at yahoo.com (Al Hartman) Date: Mon, 1 Feb 2010 09:48:25 -0800 (PST) Subject: Minimig In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <22152.6673.qm@web55304.mail.re4.yahoo.com> Correct me if I'm wrong, but it was my understanding that the Minimig was only a partial reimplementation of the Amiga 500 hardware. When last I checked the website, which is now down... much work was left to be done to fully implement all the video modes, sprites, collision detection and other parts of the custom chip functionality. I think that floppy support had yet to be implemented, so one had to make images on a real Amiga and transfer them via SDCard to the Minimig. I'd love a modern reimplementation of classic Amiga 1000 - 2000 class hardware. I was following the Minimig until it was sold to another company, and am still following the Natami project. I no longer have an Amiga 500, but will probably look for one in the next few months. I still have a working, though bare Amiga 1000 system. And was recently given an Atari-ST Mega 2 system with hard drive. Since I have that, I'm probably going to be selling the SH502 Atari Drive case (complete except for software and drive, the DMA Cable, power supply, case and ASCSI to SCSI adapter is there) on eBay. My original Jan 1979 TRS-80 Model I took a fall during the move and is now damaged. The case is cracked and is missing chips, and two keys broke off the keypad. I'm not even going to try to apply power to the system until I open it up and check it over carefully. That system has a lot of the mods from "TRS-80 and Other Mysteries" by Dennis Kitsz. It has an Electric Pencil Lowercase mod. The Speedup mod from the book, which automatically throttles down during disk or cassette access, composite out, easily reachable reset switch, built-in Alpha Compatible Joystick port, and an external keyboard port my friend added so we could play 2 player games (He wired up a surplus Coco Chiclet keyboard that Tandy used to sell off the rack, on a long ribbon cable.) I was able to snag an LNW-80 Model I two years ago, but I'd like to get my old system running and setup on a desk in my new house for old-time's sake. Since the LNW will run CP/M besides TRS-DOS compatible OS'es, it would be nice to get it going too. If I spot a Model 4 at a flea someday, I might grab one of those too. I really miss those days. Micros were a lot more fun in the early 80's than they are today. I used to wait for each new issue of 80-Micro with the latest hardware mod, or NewDos zap article with anticipation. Al Hartman Keansburg, NJ From curt at atarimuseum.com Mon Feb 1 11:52:51 2010 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Mon, 01 Feb 2010 12:52:51 -0500 Subject: Minimig In-Reply-To: <22152.6673.qm@web55304.mail.re4.yahoo.com> References: <22152.6673.qm@web55304.mail.re4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4B6714F3.8000903@atarimuseum.com> I thought I saw some minimigs up on Ebay for sale? Al Hartman wrote: > Correct me if I'm wrong, but it was my understanding that the Minimig was only a partial reimplementation of the Amiga 500 hardware. > > When last I checked the website, which is now down... much work was left to be done to fully implement all the video modes, sprites, collision detection and other parts of the custom chip functionality. > > I think that floppy support had yet to be implemented, so one had to make images on a real Amiga and transfer them via SDCard to the Minimig. > > I'd love a modern reimplementation of classic Amiga 1000 - 2000 class hardware. I was following the Minimig until it was sold to another company, and am still following the Natami project. > > I no longer have an Amiga 500, but will probably look for one in the next few months. I still have a working, though bare Amiga 1000 system. And was recently given an Atari-ST Mega 2 system with hard drive. > > Since I have that, I'm probably going to be selling the SH502 Atari Drive case (complete except for software and drive, the DMA Cable, power supply, case and ASCSI to SCSI adapter is there) on eBay. > > My original Jan 1979 TRS-80 Model I took a fall during the move and is now damaged. The case is cracked and is missing chips, and two keys broke off the keypad. I'm not even going to try to apply power to the system until I open it up and check it over carefully. > > That system has a lot of the mods from "TRS-80 and Other Mysteries" by Dennis Kitsz. It has an Electric Pencil Lowercase mod. The Speedup mod from the book, which automatically throttles down during disk or cassette access, composite out, easily reachable reset switch, built-in Alpha Compatible Joystick port, and an external keyboard port my friend added so we could play 2 player games (He wired up a surplus Coco Chiclet keyboard that Tandy used to sell off the rack, on a long ribbon cable.) > > I was able to snag an LNW-80 Model I two years ago, but I'd like to get my old system running and setup on a desk in my new house for old-time's sake. > > Since the LNW will run CP/M besides TRS-DOS compatible OS'es, it would be nice to get it going too. If I spot a Model 4 at a flea someday, I might grab one of those too. > > I really miss those days. Micros were a lot more fun in the early 80's than they are today. I used to wait for each new issue of 80-Micro with the latest hardware mod, or NewDos zap article with anticipation. > > Al Hartman > Keansburg, NJ > > > From emu at e-bbes.com Mon Feb 1 12:04:21 2010 From: emu at e-bbes.com (e.stiebler) Date: Mon, 01 Feb 2010 11:04:21 -0700 Subject: Minimig In-Reply-To: <22152.6673.qm@web55304.mail.re4.yahoo.com> References: <22152.6673.qm@web55304.mail.re4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4B6717A5.2070404@e-bbes.com> Al Hartman wrote: > Correct me if I'm wrong, but it was my understanding that the Minimig was only a partial reimplementation of the Amiga 500 hardware. Probably, but not as bad as some people think. A lot of games are working on it. > > When last I checked the website, which is now down... Try here : http://www.minimig.net/index.php And please get an email client which cuts long lines ;-) Cheers From emu at e-bbes.com Mon Feb 1 12:06:22 2010 From: emu at e-bbes.com (e.stiebler) Date: Mon, 01 Feb 2010 11:06:22 -0700 Subject: Minimig In-Reply-To: <4B6714F3.8000903@atarimuseum.com> References: <22152.6673.qm@web55304.mail.re4.yahoo.com> <4B6714F3.8000903@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <4B67181E.2070903@e-bbes.com> Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > I thought I saw some minimigs up on Ebay for sale? Assembled minimigs are sold on ebay. But if you insist, all the documentation is still out there, so you can make you very own. Most people don't notice, but there are actually three different version out there, one is even in mini-itx format. Cheers From keithvz at verizon.net Mon Feb 1 12:14:36 2010 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith) Date: Mon, 01 Feb 2010 13:14:36 -0500 Subject: Minimig In-Reply-To: <22152.6673.qm@web55304.mail.re4.yahoo.com> References: <22152.6673.qm@web55304.mail.re4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4B671A0C.6010909@verizon.net> Al Hartman wrote: > Correct me if I'm wrong, but it was my understanding that the Minimig was only a partial reimplementation of the Amiga 500 hardware. Al, that is correct. You can read the source files to see basically what isn't done. > > When last I checked the website, which is now down... I've mirrored the old site, and provided links to new site http://www.techtravels.org/amiga/minimig/minimig.html much work was left to be done to fully implement all the video modes, sprites, collision detection and other parts of the custom chip functionality. I honestly have played with it too much, but a lot of games, etc run fine on it. I would think that a large portion of what you mention is sufficiently completed for that to be true. > I think that floppy support had yet to be implemented, so one had to make images on a real Amiga and transfer them via SDCard to the Minimig. There is no interface for a floppy drive on the minimig. Most software is available in .ADFs --- or you have to make them yourself. > I really miss those days. Micros were a lot more fun in the early 80's than they are today. No doubt. I had a CoCo II where I learned a fair bit about computers. Keith From quapla at xs4all.nl Mon Feb 1 13:26:05 2010 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (Ed Groenenberg) Date: Mon, 1 Feb 2010 20:26:05 +0100 Subject: Mentec SBC M70 Usermanual Message-ID: <04acd6aade9729f0e3b1b9ae26173446.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Found during cleanup, a Mentec SBC M70 Usermanual in pristine condition. First edition from November 1st, 1987. It is A4 format with a spiral ring spine and comes from Dublin, Ireland. Make me an offer off-list. -- Certified : VCP 3.x, SCSI 3.x SCSA S10, SCNA S10 www.groenenberg.net www.witte-kat-batterijen.nl From rogpugh at mac.com Mon Feb 1 14:06:00 2010 From: rogpugh at mac.com (Roger Pugh) Date: Mon, 01 Feb 2010 20:06:00 +0000 Subject: 6809 SBC In-Reply-To: <4B66FEF9.8010104@gmail.com> References: <4B66FEF9.8010104@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B673428.8020307@mac.com> I have a HH Tiger that consists of a 6809 and a Z80, separate RAM for each, also a graphics chip with its own RAM. The 6809 afaik is only there to handle the disks, i/o and other peripherals. One day i will be brave and plug it all in !!! If anyone needs it i have some software for the Tiger. CP/M and some others by the names of tigertel, tigerplan, tigerdem, tigerword and M(icrosoft)? basic. rog From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Feb 1 13:46:16 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 1 Feb 2010 19:46:16 +0000 (GMT) Subject: 6809 SBC (was Editor religious wars (was Re: Museums)) In-Reply-To: <4B66204C.4050807@compsys.to> from "Jerome H. Fine" at Jan 31, 10 07:29:00 pm Message-ID: > > 16 bits, actually. The two MMU architectures extended that to 18 and > > 22 bits. I wouldn't call it a goof considering the first one came > > out in 1970. For a small lab minicomputer in 1970, 64KB isn't bad at > > all. > > Considering the cost of CORE memory in 1970, 64KB was > much larger than any PDP-11 at that time. 8KB was a > common system. Even up to around 1975, I don't think > there was an MMU available in any case. Does anyone > know when the MMU was first used with more than 64KB > of memory for the system? The MMU appears to have been planned from the very start, if only because 18 address lines were dedined on the Unibus. AFAIK the first machien to have an (optional) MMU was the 11/45 which came out in 1972. I don't know whne the MMU itself came out, but the backplne was designed to take it fro mthe very start (there were considerable changes at S/N2000 in the 11/45, and even machines before that serial number could take the MMU). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Feb 1 13:53:01 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 1 Feb 2010 19:53:01 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Classic Epson printer emulators In-Reply-To: <4B6639B5.42702BFA@cs.ubc.ca> from "Brent Hilpert" at Jan 31, 10 06:17:25 pm Message-ID: > I thought the fading issue was quite commonly realised, esp. if you're the type > that hangs on to receipts. It's certainly well-known among the users of old HP calculators which have thermal printers. But few opther people seem to realise it. > On the other hand, I have dozens of printouts from high school in 1976, from > the printer for a HP9830 computer/calculator, taped to sheets and bound in a I assume this was the HP9866 thermal prionter. THe one that stacks on top of the 9830 and looks like part of the main machine. I mention that becuase while the 9830 has a built-in interface for that 9866 printer, you could link all sorts of other printers to it (there was certainly a daisywheel, the HP9871). The built-in interface was similar in concept to a Cnetronics port (7 parallel data lines, strobe, acknowledge IIRC), and could fairly easily be hacked to something else. > folder, all of which are completely legible, very slight fading, except for > some corners under 3M tape which have faded completely. Assuming it was the 9866 thermal printer, I guess whether the printout fades or not depends more on the peper than the printer itself. YOu can uuse normal thermal fax paper in this printer (I assume you can still buy that), but I guess you were using the genuine HP stuff. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Feb 1 14:02:46 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 1 Feb 2010 20:02:46 +0000 (GMT) Subject: 6809 SBC In-Reply-To: <4B66D7D7.7020308@gmail.com> from "Jules Richardson" at Feb 1, 10 07:32:07 am Message-ID: > No... I spent many a year searching, too. I have the manual, which I think > includes the schematic (if not, I got that separately), but I never did come > across the physical board. You're going to hate me. I've got _2_ of them. One with the normal ROM for the 40 column VDU card, the other with a ROM for the rare 80 column VDU (and yes, I have that card too). > > > The curious Tiger used a 68B09 for I/O (along with a Z80A for the main > > processor and a 7220 graphics chip). > > The HH machine? I've never seen a real one, but it sounded like an interesting > beast. There's one under my bed (seriously). Alas I don't have the disk unit, which makes it farily useless (the ROMs in mine are simply a disk bootstrap). > Remember that there was a *lot* of in-house expertise in 6502 development; the > Atom was almost a "System rack in a home computer box", just as the BBC was an To the extent that the expansion bus was a System bus connector. You could fit one System eurocard inside an Atom -- at least one of my Atoms has the econet interface doen that way (another one of my Atoms has the 'proper' econet interface PCB plugged into the solder side of the mainboard). The video ciorcuitry was very differnt, though. THe Atom used the 6847 VDG chip. The System VDU cards used 6845s, and in the case of the 40 column one, an SAA5050 teletext charactger geenrator ROM. -tony From dave09 at dunfield.com Mon Feb 1 16:30:15 2010 From: dave09 at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Mon, 1 Feb 2010 17:30:15 -0500 Subject: 6809 SBC In-Reply-To: <0317F94D04B5407E9E515FAF55CCAD25@andrewdesktop> Message-ID: <5ECE0D7B2AA4@dunfield.com> > I think the N8VEM 6809 host processor is the only system I am aware of other > than Dave's homebrew that is running CUBIX. There maybe some other homebrew > systems out there too I can't find them after some searching. > Thanks and have nice day! I've corresponded with a number of people over the years who have built up Cubix systems - probably a dozen or so... it's definately not mainstream, but there has been a small following. Btw - anyone wanting to fool with the 6809 from a software point of view, including running CUBIX, can simply load up my D6809 simulator ... it will happily run on an old 386/486 DOS PC if you like (you can put it in a box and pretend it's a 6809 system :-) Dave -- dave09 (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From dave09 at dunfield.com Mon Feb 1 16:43:59 2010 From: dave09 at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Mon, 1 Feb 2010 17:43:59 -0500 Subject: DOS Widgets Message-ID: <5EDA5B14711A@dunfield.com> Not many DOSheads left (I still have a DOS machine on my desk which I use daily), but perhaps someone will still benefit from this... FWIW - I've started to catalog and post some of the various widgets I've created for DOS over the years. Items range from trivial utilities to fairly complex packages. Some of these were commercial packages that I once sold mail-order (and later the web), while others are just things I put together for my own use. I'm not sure if/where I'll post it permanantly, however for now I've put a link at the bottom of "Dave's old computers" - Enjoy. Dave -- dave09 (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From jonas at otter.se Mon Feb 1 04:21:24 2010 From: jonas at otter.se (Jonas Otter) Date: Mon, 01 Feb 2010 10:21:24 +0000 Subject: 6809 SBC In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 31 Jan 2010 , Pete Turnbull wrote: >I am really puzzled by this. The ACIA has no hardware reset line, but >it's very easy to send it a master reset command in software. In fact, >you have to do that to clear the hardware reset condition after a power >up, because the ACIA stays in the inactive/reset condition until you >program it. > >Charlie, you weren't using GTE 68C50s, were you? They did have a few >weird bugs. > I seem to remember having to send three consecutive software reset commands to something or other, quite possibly 6850:s, and probably Motorola ones. If you sent only one, the chip did not reset, you had to send three at once. /Jonas From ddsnyder at zoominternet.net Mon Feb 1 06:27:01 2010 From: ddsnyder at zoominternet.net (ddsnyder at zoominternet.net) Date: Mon, 1 Feb 2010 07:27:01 -0500 Subject: Free for pickup Message-ID: <20355.1265027221@zoominternet.net> Oops, forgot to mention my location, Butler, PA, USA, near Pittsburgh, PA On Sun 01/31/10 9:01 PM , Mark Davidson mdavidson1963 at gmail.com sent: If you said this before, I somehow missed it... where are you located? Thanks. Mark On Sun, Jan 31, 2010 at 9:59 AM, Daniel Snyder wrote: > Still thinning my vintage stuff.. > Go to http://picasaweb.google.com/DanielDSnyder [2] for a look, category is: Old > stuff looking for a new home > > Available is: > > 1 - Centronics 761 KSR - serial > 1 - Centronics 779 - parallel > 1 - Centronics 781 - serial? > 1 - IBM PS/2 TV - complete > 2 - IBM PS/2 model 30-286 > 1 - IBM PS/2 model 25 B&W > 1 - IBM PS/2 model 50 > 2 - IBM PS/2 model 70 386 & 486 > 1 - IBM PS/2 model 80 with Kingston 486 > 1 - IBM PS/2 B&W monitor > 2 - IBM PS/2 keyboards > > Contact me offine. I really do not want to ship this stuff, but I am willing > to relay > the stuff and at this moment there is no time limit, I am not going to toss > the stuff.. > > Note all items have been stored in my home and have been known to work. I > know for a fact the Centronics printers have been in my home for almost 30 > years. > > I need the space, would like to pass the items to someone else to enjoy.. > whatever > the reason may be, I have narrowed my focus to VAX, Alpha and Integrity > based VMS > boxes. This is one of the few constants in my career in the last 31 years. > > Dan Snyder > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Al Hartman" > To: > Sent: Saturday, January 30, 2010 9:00 AM > Subject: Re: Free for pickup > > >> Of the items I posted earlier, the following is still available: >> >> Qty 2 - HP Laserjet IIIP Printers >> >> Box of Misc Network Adapter cards, ISA mixed 8 and 16 bit. Mostly 16 bit. >> All are Novell, Windows 3.x, Windows 95 and Lantastic Compatible. >> >> I have the following to add: >> >> 1 ZIP 100 Drive and Power Supply >> 1 Ditto Tape Backup Drive (Not sure if it still works due to age of rubber >> rollers) >> 1 Apple Imagewriter II >> >> Items are located in Keansburg, NJ 07734 >> >> Contact me off-list via PM. >> >> Thanks! >> >> Al Hartman >> >> > > Links: ------ [1] mailto:ddsnyder at zoominternet.net [2] https://webmail2.agoc.com/parse.php?redirect=http%3A%2F%2Fpicasaweb.google.com%2FDanielDSnyder [3] mailto:alhartman at yahoo.com [4] mailto:cctalk at classiccmp.org From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Mon Feb 1 16:36:17 2010 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 01 Feb 2010 16:36:17 -0600 Subject: 6809 SBC In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B675761.6050402@gmail.com> Tony Duell wrote: >> No... I spent many a year searching, too. I have the manual, which I think >> includes the schematic (if not, I got that separately), but I never did come >> across the physical board. > > You're going to hate me. I've got _2_ of them. One with the normal ROM > for the 40 column VDU card, the other with a ROM for the rare 80 column > VDU (and yes, I have that card too). Git ;) Was the 80-col VDU just the stock System one (Acorn p/n 200,019), or something else? I've got at least one of the System ones (along with many of the other System boards that they made). The 6809 CPU board has always proved elusive, though... I've never heard of another 80x25 board than the '019 one, but I think my System-era document collection's only about 80% complete so I might be missing something! >>> The curious Tiger used a 68B09 for I/O (along with a Z80A for the main >>> processor and a 7220 graphics chip). >> The HH machine? I've never seen a real one, but it sounded like an interesting >> beast. > > There's one under my bed (seriously). Alas I don't have the disk unit, > which makes it farily useless (the ROMs in mine are simply a disk > bootstrap). Yes, I remember you telling me about it... I recall the museum being offered one quite a few years ago, but then the donor went all quiet (as sometimes happens!) so I've never seen a 'live' one. Was there something unusual (local processor or strange interface etc.) about the disk unit that makes it hard to just couple some drives up? >> Remember that there was a *lot* of in-house expertise in 6502 development; the >> Atom was almost a "System rack in a home computer box", just as the BBC was an > > To the extent that the expansion bus was a System bus connector. You > could fit one System eurocard inside an Atom -- at least one of my Atoms > has the econet interface doen that way (another one of my Atoms has the > 'proper' econet interface PCB plugged into the solder side of the mainboard). Indeed - I've seen a couple of Atoms with System lab interface boards shoe-horned into the case like that (and my Atom with the disk unit just uses a System FDC, as I'm sure you know). I've seen two different board layouts for System Econet cards, incidentally. > The video ciorcuitry was very differnt, though. THe Atom used the 6847 > VDG chip. The System VDU cards used 6845s, and in the case of the 40 > column one, an SAA5050 teletext charactger geenrator ROM. Yep. I always wanted to build a colour encoder board for the Atom (I've got the documentation, but never had the physical board) but maybe that's irrelevant now I'm in a non-PAL country :-) Oh, I've got a couple of Control Universal "CU Graph" graphics boards with a System bus. These use the EF9366 graphics display processor for the "grunt work". There are two boards in each set, one containing the I/O decoding logic, 9366 IC, 16KB of DRAM and video outputs, the other containing 32KB of DRAM and a mysterious* 26-way IDC connector brought out to the card edge. According to the EF9366 docs, the boards should do 256x512 in 8 basic colours. * I don't have proper documentation for them and have never traced a schematic out. I wondered about light-pen connectors (and the 9366 chip does support a light pen), but 26 pins seems a bit excessive. Maybe they just bring some other useful signals out to that connector. cheers Jules From ken at seefried.com Mon Feb 1 16:38:33 2010 From: ken at seefried.com (Ken Seefried) Date: Mon, 01 Feb 2010 22:38:33 +0000 Subject: Heurikon HK68/M130 or M140 manuals? Message-ID: Long shot, but would anyone have manuals for the Heurikon HK68/M130 or M140 (or both)? These are pretty nice 680[34]0 based Multibus-1 boards. KJ From trixter at oldskool.org Mon Feb 1 16:38:47 2010 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Mon, 01 Feb 2010 16:38:47 -0600 Subject: DOS Widgets In-Reply-To: <5EDA5B14711A@dunfield.com> References: <5EDA5B14711A@dunfield.com> Message-ID: <4B6757F7.3000108@oldskool.org> On 2/1/2010 4:43 PM, Dave Dunfield wrote: > FWIW - I've started to catalog and post some of the various widgets > I've created for DOS over the years. Items range from trivial utilities > to fairly complex packages. Some of these were commercial packages that > I once sold mail-order (and later the web), while others are just things > I put together for my own use. > > I'm not sure if/where I'll post it permanantly, however for now I've > put a link at the bottom of "Dave's old computers" - Enjoy. Very nice! I've had fun just browsing some of the micro-c source and library source for about 30 minutes now. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Feb 1 16:27:27 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 1 Feb 2010 22:27:27 +0000 (GMT) Subject: 6809 SBC In-Reply-To: from "Jonas Otter" at Feb 1, 10 10:21:24 am Message-ID: > I seem to remember having to send three consecutive software reset > commands to something or other, quite possibly 6850:s, and probably > Motorola ones. If you sent only one, the chip did not reset, you had to > send three at once. That sounds more like the Intel 8251 USART. IIRC on that chip you have to send the reset command 3 times to ensure it's treated as a command and not as data to be loadrd into one of the configuration registers. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Feb 1 16:51:30 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 1 Feb 2010 22:51:30 +0000 (GMT) Subject: 6809 SBC In-Reply-To: <4B675761.6050402@gmail.com> from "Jules Richardson" at Feb 1, 10 04:36:17 pm Message-ID: > > Tony Duell wrote: > >> No... I spent many a year searching, too. I have the manual, which I think > >> includes the schematic (if not, I got that separately), but I never did come > >> across the physical board. > > > > You're going to hate me. I've got _2_ of them. One with the normal ROM > > for the 40 column VDU card, the other with a ROM for the rare 80 column > > VDU (and yes, I have that card too). > > Git ;) Was the 80-col VDU just the stock System one (Acorn p/n 200,019), or > something else? I've got at least one of the System ones (along with many of As far as I know it'sjust hte standard System one. The 6809 and 6502 buses are very similar, so there'd be no need to have special cards for the 6809. Certainly the memory and FDC cards are the normal ones. > the other System boards that they made). The 6809 CPU board has always proved > elusive, though... > > I've never heard of another 80x25 board than the '019 one, but I think my > System-era document collection's only about 80% complete so I might be missing > something! > > >>> The curious Tiger used a 68B09 for I/O (along with a Z80A for the main > >>> processor and a 7220 graphics chip). > >> The HH machine? I've never seen a real one, but it sounded like an interesting > >> beast. > > > > There's one under my bed (seriously). Alas I don't have the disk unit, > > which makes it farily useless (the ROMs in mine are simply a disk > > bootstrap). > > Yes, I remember you telling me about it... I recall the museum being offered > one quite a few years ago, but then the donor went all quiet (as sometimes > happens!) so I've never seen a 'live' one. > > Was there something unusual (local processor or strange interface etc.) about > the disk unit that makes it hard to just couple some drives up? The disk cotnroller was in the drive unit. The connectors on the bottom of the Tiger are essentially system buses (and all 3 are differnt -- I think 2 of them carry differen subsets of the Z80 bus, the other one the 6809 bus, but I might be mis-remembering it).And I don't have schematics of the disk controller board. I suppose I could disassmeble the ROMs and see what sort of FDCchip it's probalby looking for and at what address, but I've got a lot of other projects to complete first. > > >> Remember that there was a *lot* of in-house expertise in 6502 development; the > >> Atom was almost a "System rack in a home computer box", just as the BBC was an > > > > To the extent that the expansion bus was a System bus connector. You > > could fit one System eurocard inside an Atom -- at least one of my Atoms > > has the econet interface doen that way (another one of my Atoms has the > > 'proper' econet interface PCB plugged into the solder side of the mainboard). > > Indeed - I've seen a couple of Atoms with System lab interface boards > shoe-horned into the case like that (and my Atom with the disk unit just uses I think I've got one like that. > a System FDC, as I'm sure you know). I've seen two different board layouts for > System Econet cards, incidentally. > > > The video ciorcuitry was very differnt, though. THe Atom used the 6847 > > VDG chip. The System VDU cards used 6845s, and in the case of the 40 > > column one, an SAA5050 teletext charactger geenrator ROM. > > Yep. I always wanted to build a colour encoder board for the Atom (I've got > the documentation, but never had the physical board) but maybe that's > irrelevant now I'm in a non-PAL country :-) > > Oh, I've got a couple of Control Universal "CU Graph" graphics boards with a > System bus. These use the EF9366 graphics display processor for the "grunt > work". There are two boards in each set, one containing the I/O decoding > logic, 9366 IC, 16KB of DRAM and video outputs, the other containing 32KB of > DRAM and a mysterious* 26-way IDC connector brought out to the card edge. > According to the EF9366 docs, the boards should do 256x512 in 8 basic colours. > > * I don't have proper documentation for them and have never traced a schematic > out. I wondered about light-pen connectors (and the 9366 chip does support a > light pen), but 26 pins seems a bit excessive. Maybe they just bring some > other useful signals out to that connector. My guess is that it's the connector for a parallel-interfaced keyboard, thus putting human input and output on the same PCB. -tony From cclist at sydex.com Mon Feb 1 17:26:25 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 01 Feb 2010 15:26:25 -0800 Subject: 6809 SBC In-Reply-To: References: from "Jonas Otter" at Feb 1, 10 10:21:24 am, Message-ID: <4B66F2A1.18064.1E449C8@cclist.sydex.com> On 1 Feb 2010 at 22:27, Tony Duell wrote: > That sounds more like the Intel 8251 USART. IIRC on that chip you have > to send the reset command 3 times to ensure it's treated as a command > and not as data to be loadrd into one of the configuration registers. The problem arose because after a reset, the 8251A (the 8251 is a miserable botch), expects a mode command upon reset. The trouble occurs when you're trying to use the same routine to reset the chip (command mode) and program the mode because both the mode command bytes (1 or 3, depending on sync or async) use the same I/O port. If you came to the routine from a power-on or external reset, the attempted reset command would be interpreted as the first byte of a mode sequence. The workaround was to fire off three 00 bytes, which had no effect other than to terminate a pending mode sequence (if any) and put the 8251A into a command state. The next command would be an "internal reset", which would drop the chip into a mode state, whereupon you could issue the necessary mode bytes. Note that you had to be in the mode state to change between synchronous or async operation, character length, parity or sync character length (1 or 2 characters). Yes, it was clumsy, but the 8251A was a good choice for synchronous mode operation, so most folks sucked it up and dealt with it, probably because the 8251A was very easy to design for DMA mode operation. If you could restrict your needs to asynchronous operation, there were many other good choices. --Chuck From ragooman at comcast.net Mon Feb 1 17:27:09 2010 From: ragooman at comcast.net (Dan Roganti) Date: Mon, 01 Feb 2010 18:27:09 -0500 Subject: Reminder for Workshop: Installing CP/M on your S-100 computer , signup begins today Feb.1st In-Reply-To: <4B66D5AD.8060205@comcast.net> References: <4B66D5AD.8060205@comcast.net> Message-ID: <4B67634D.8020206@comcast.net> Dan Roganti wrote: > > Reminder: > Installing CP/M on your S-100 computer workshop > > signup begins today Feb.1st > NOTE: If you have other computers such as the Kaypro, Advantage, etc which already have CP/M running, you can use this too. They just need to be 100% working. As this is not a repair workshop. Basically, even though it would have CP/M already running on this, the hands-on training will show you all the technical details about how to configure and install CP/M on your current machine. Then you can apply this knowledge to any other machine that wouldn't have CP/M already. You would need to get prepared with all the technical manuals for your machine to extract the configuration info so you can edit and patch the CP/M source code to support your machine (that's what you will learn). We would help in locating any manuals you might be missing. =Dan http://www.vintagecomputer.net/ragooman/ From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Feb 1 21:03:09 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 1 Feb 2010 22:03:09 -0500 Subject: WW sockets Message-ID: I have a few packs of wire wrap sockets - all 40 pin Texas Instruments - maybe about 45 pieces total. Free for postage from 10512. Inquire off list, please. -- Will From teoz at neo.rr.com Tue Feb 2 00:55:11 2010 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Tue, 2 Feb 2010 01:55:11 -0500 Subject: Free for pickup References: <990883.74434.qm@web55304.mail.re4.yahoo.com> <000e01caa29f$29640140$6501a8c0@HP24150918428> Message-ID: <9170DDFC830640998DEADA523455E505@dell8300> Get much interest in that lot yet? The Model 70 486 is interesting along with the PS/2 TV box. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Daniel Snyder" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" Sent: Sunday, January 31, 2010 12:59 PM Subject: Free for pickup > Still thinning my vintage stuff.. > Go to http://picasaweb.google.com/DanielDSnyder for a look, category is: > Old stuff looking for a new home > > Available is: > > 1 - Centronics 761 KSR - serial > 1 - Centronics 779 - parallel > 1 - Centronics 781 - serial? > 1 - IBM PS/2 TV - complete > 2 - IBM PS/2 model 30-286 > 1 - IBM PS/2 model 25 B&W > 1 - IBM PS/2 model 50 > 2 - IBM PS/2 model 70 386 & 486 > 1 - IBM PS/2 model 80 with Kingston 486 > 1 - IBM PS/2 B&W monitor > 2 - IBM PS/2 keyboards > > Contact me offine. I really do not want to ship this stuff, but I am > willing to relay > the stuff and at this moment there is no time limit, I am not going to > toss the stuff.. > > Note all items have been stored in my home and have been known to work. I > know for a fact the Centronics printers have been in my home for almost 30 > years. > > I need the space, would like to pass the items to someone else to enjoy.. > whatever > the reason may be, I have narrowed my focus to VAX, Alpha and Integrity > based VMS > boxes. This is one of the few constants in my career in the last 31 years. > > Dan Snyder > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Al Hartman" > To: > Sent: Saturday, January 30, 2010 9:00 AM > Subject: Re: Free for pickup > > >> Of the items I posted earlier, the following is still available: >> >> Qty 2 - HP Laserjet IIIP Printers >> >> Box of Misc Network Adapter cards, ISA mixed 8 and 16 bit. Mostly 16 bit. >> All are Novell, Windows 3.x, Windows 95 and Lantastic Compatible. >> >> I have the following to add: >> >> 1 ZIP 100 Drive and Power Supply >> 1 Ditto Tape Backup Drive (Not sure if it still works due to age of >> rubber rollers) >> 1 Apple Imagewriter II >> >> Items are located in Keansburg, NJ 07734 >> >> Contact me off-list via PM. >> >> Thanks! >> >> Al Hartman >> >> > From csquared3 at tx.rr.com Mon Feb 1 20:52:27 2010 From: csquared3 at tx.rr.com (CSquared) Date: Mon, 01 Feb 2010 20:52:27 -0600 Subject: 6809 SBC In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B67936B.20508@tx.rr.com> Jonas Otter wrote: > On 31 Jan 2010 , Pete Turnbull wrote: > >> I am really puzzled by this. The ACIA has no hardware reset line, but >> it's very easy to send it a master reset command in software. In fact, >> you have to do that to clear the hardware reset condition after a power >> up, because the ACIA stays in the inactive/reset condition until you >> program it. >> >> Charlie, you weren't using GTE 68C50s, were you? They did have a few >> weird bugs. >> > > I seem to remember having to send three consecutive software reset > commands to something or other, quite possibly 6850:s, and probably > Motorola ones. If you sent only one, the chip did not reset, you had to > send three at once. > > /Jonas Hi Jonas, I sure wish you'd suggested that about 40 years ago. :) Seriously, thanks for the tip, I'll have to try and remember that in case I ever encounter an ACIA again. I would have been glad to send 3 or however many commands were necessary if would have unstuck the things. I think that when your ACIA is locked up somehow, you're suddenly no longer in a real big hurry. Later, Charlie C. From csquared3 at tx.rr.com Mon Feb 1 21:09:20 2010 From: csquared3 at tx.rr.com (CSquared) Date: Mon, 01 Feb 2010 21:09:20 -0600 Subject: 6809 SBC In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B679760.10208@tx.rr.com> Mark Tapley wrote: > At 4:59 -0600 1/31/10, CSquared wrote: >> All this discussion is making me want a >> CoCo unfortunately. Never had one when they were "new" but always >> thought they would be a lot of fun - maybe a garage sale will turn one >> up some day. > > If you don't mind spending a bit, > > http://www.cloud9tech.com/ > > might be a useful alternative to eBay. Refurbished CoCo3's are among the > other goodies on the site. For the "power user", you can get 512k memory > expansions, a serial link to your PC to use as disk storage > ("Drivewire"), NitOS-9 in ROM, 6309 CPU upgrade, IDE or SCSI adaptors, > etc. etc. > > No connection other than as a satisfied customer. > > Hope this helps ... > >> Just what I don't need of course - yet another project or >> piece of hardware. > > ... Oops. ;-) Heh! That's OK Mark, I couldn't resist bookmarking the site anyway; it does look interesting. Later, Charlie C. From philpem at philpem.me.uk Mon Feb 1 19:03:37 2010 From: philpem at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Tue, 02 Feb 2010 01:03:37 +0000 Subject: [Fwd: [BBC-Micro] UK Vintage Computer Festival 2010] Message-ID: <4B6779E9.9010908@philpem.me.uk> Hi guys, I spotted this on the BBC-Micro mailing list -- figured a few UK-based classiccmp'ers might be interested... It looks like the VCF has finally made its way across the pond. Them ferries sure are slow! :) "David Hunt" said: > Hi Folks, > > I am involved with the National Museum Of Computing at Bletchley Park and we > have been working hard on bringing the VCF to the UK. We are pleased to > announce the event to take place this June. There will be an emphasis on > British computers. I hope many people from this list and the STH list will > attend the event, it'll be great! > > Cheers > > Dave > > ----------- > > "Britain's largest celebration of vintage computing is to be held at The > National Museum of Computing (TNMOC) in Bletchley Park from 19-20 June 2010. > > Originating ten years ago in California's Silicon Valley, to celebrate our > computing heritage, Vintage Computing Festivals are now regular events held > across the USA and in Germany. The June 2010 event at TNMOC will be the > first in the UK and will pay particular tribute to the British contribution > to the development of computing. > > The festival, which is open to the general public and welcomes private > exhibitors, will have exhibition stands, a full lecture programme, machine > demonstrations, computer games and challenges, bring-and-buy sale, and > performances of electronic music. > > Kevin Murrell, VCF co-ordinator and a trustee and director of TNMOC said: > "The enthusiasm for this festival is already remarkable and we have only > just started to publicise the event. The historic and spacious setting of > Bletchley Park is perfect for the event - and with The National Museum of > Computing on the same site, it will surely draw visitors from overseas as > well as from across Britain. With visitor numbers expected to exceed one > thousand, the Festival offers a great opportunity for potential sponsors." > > Exhibitions already committed include Acorn, Amiga, Atari, PDP11, Retro > Computer Museum, Sinclair, and Sundown Demoparty. There will be performances > by Pixelh8 and a guest appearance by one of the pioneers of British > synthpop. > > Lots more will be announced soon. To keep up-to-date, see www.vcf-gb.org. > > For general enquiries and to join the mailing list, email Simon Hewitt/Kevin > Murrell at vcf at tnmoc.org. > > Potential sponsors should contact Kevin Murrell of TNMOC at > kevin.murrell at tnmoc.org. > > Media and PR enquiries please contact Stephen Fleming of Palam > Communications at sfleming at palam.co.uk. -- Phil. philpem at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From csquared3 at tx.rr.com Mon Feb 1 21:25:14 2010 From: csquared3 at tx.rr.com (CSquared) Date: Mon, 01 Feb 2010 21:25:14 -0600 Subject: DOS Widgets In-Reply-To: <5EDA5B14711A@dunfield.com> References: <5EDA5B14711A@dunfield.com> Message-ID: <4B679B1A.50409@tx.rr.com> Dave Dunfield wrote: > Not many DOSheads left (I still have a DOS machine on my desk which > I use daily), but perhaps someone will still benefit from this... > > FWIW - I've started to catalog and post some of the various widgets > I've created for DOS over the years. Items range from trivial utilities > to fairly complex packages. Some of these were commercial packages that > I once sold mail-order (and later the web), while others are just things > I put together for my own use. > > I'm not sure if/where I'll post it permanantly, however for now I've > put a link at the bottom of "Dave's old computers" - Enjoy. > > Dave > > -- > dave09 (at) Dave Dunfield > dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com > com Collector of vintage computing equipment: > http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html > Thanks for that Dave, I'll have to take a look. After all, why would anyone abandon the only OS that actually works. ;) Ducking for cover, Charlie C. From csquared3 at tx.rr.com Mon Feb 1 21:37:40 2010 From: csquared3 at tx.rr.com (CSquared) Date: Mon, 01 Feb 2010 21:37:40 -0600 Subject: 6809 SBC In-Reply-To: <4B66F760.1050100@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4B65EC26.2040509@dunnington.plus.com> <4B6668AF.6080007@tx.rr.com> <4B6691A4.3060201@dunnington.plus.com> <4B66F760.1050100@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4B679E04.2000605@tx.rr.com> Ben wrote: > Pete Turnbull wrote: >> On 01/02/2010 05:37, CSquared wrote: >>> Pete Turnbull wrote: >> >>>> I am really puzzled by this. The ACIA has no hardware reset line, but >>>> it's very easy to send it a master reset command in software. >> >>> I'm pretty sure they were Motorola parts. As I told Geoffrey, it has >>> been a very long time - like probably 40 years - and I've forgotten a >>> lot of the details, and just sort of remember the pain. I think the >>> ACIA would somehow get into a state where it would not pay attention >>> to the master reset command. >> >> I don't recall that ever happening to me, but I can well believe it :-) >> > Intel parks I can see, Motorola parts no! > I really like Motorola stuff too, but ISTR the 6850 package was pin limited and there was no room for a discrete reset line. Y'all are going to force me to see what I can dig up on that old project yet. :) It's been so long though, and since I think the project was scuttled, I really doubt I have any documentation of any kind left. Maybe some of my old REI friends remember more about it than I seem to, though I think I've lost touch with the other folks who worked on that system. Of course I could get myself a 6809 system, connect a 6850 and figure out how to lock it up. Hey, what a great idea... Later, Charlie C. From josecvalle at gmail.com Tue Feb 2 04:11:19 2010 From: josecvalle at gmail.com (Jose carlos Valle) Date: Tue, 2 Feb 2010 08:11:19 -0200 Subject: Free for pickup In-Reply-To: <9170DDFC830640998DEADA523455E505@dell8300> References: <990883.74434.qm@web55304.mail.re4.yahoo.com> <000e01caa29f$29640140$6501a8c0@HP24150918428> <9170DDFC830640998DEADA523455E505@dell8300> Message-ID: Al.. I would like to get that stuffs, but, I am in Miami.. could you send by ground I will pay here? I am curator of computer Museum in Brazil, I will appreciate that machines in my museum. please Jose Carlos Valle 2010/2/2 Teo Zenios > Get much interest in that lot yet? > > The Model 70 486 is interesting along with the PS/2 TV box. > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Daniel Snyder" < > ddsnyder at zoominternet.net> > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" > Sent: Sunday, January 31, 2010 12:59 PM > Subject: Free for pickup > > > Still thinning my vintage stuff.. >> Go to http://picasaweb.google.com/DanielDSnyder for a look, category is: >> Old stuff looking for a new home >> >> Available is: >> >> 1 - Centronics 761 KSR - serial >> 1 - Centronics 779 - parallel >> 1 - Centronics 781 - serial? >> 1 - IBM PS/2 TV - complete >> 2 - IBM PS/2 model 30-286 >> 1 - IBM PS/2 model 25 B&W >> 1 - IBM PS/2 model 50 >> 2 - IBM PS/2 model 70 386 & 486 >> 1 - IBM PS/2 model 80 with Kingston 486 >> 1 - IBM PS/2 B&W monitor >> 2 - IBM PS/2 keyboards >> >> Contact me offine. I really do not want to ship this stuff, but I am >> willing to relay >> the stuff and at this moment there is no time limit, I am not going to >> toss the stuff.. >> >> Note all items have been stored in my home and have been known to work. I >> know for a fact the Centronics printers have been in my home for almost 30 >> years. >> >> I need the space, would like to pass the items to someone else to enjoy.. >> whatever >> the reason may be, I have narrowed my focus to VAX, Alpha and Integrity >> based VMS >> boxes. This is one of the few constants in my career in the last 31 years. >> >> Dan Snyder >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Al Hartman" >> To: >> Sent: Saturday, January 30, 2010 9:00 AM >> Subject: Re: Free for pickup >> >> >> Of the items I posted earlier, the following is still available: >>> >>> Qty 2 - HP Laserjet IIIP Printers >>> >>> Box of Misc Network Adapter cards, ISA mixed 8 and 16 bit. Mostly 16 bit. >>> All are Novell, Windows 3.x, Windows 95 and Lantastic Compatible. >>> >>> I have the following to add: >>> >>> 1 ZIP 100 Drive and Power Supply >>> 1 Ditto Tape Backup Drive (Not sure if it still works due to age of >>> rubber rollers) >>> 1 Apple Imagewriter II >>> >>> Items are located in Keansburg, NJ 07734 >>> >>> Contact me off-list via PM. >>> >>> Thanks! >>> >>> Al Hartman >>> >>> >>> >> > -- Muito obrigado Jos? Carlos Valle - Curador/eventos "If my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sins and heal their land." ~II Chronicles 7:14 amem TWITTER: http://twitter.com/curadordomuseu Eventos do Museu assistam os videos http://www.orkut.com.br/Main#FavoriteVideos?uid=4556187644461453698&sm=add O Curador no Jornal Nacional. agosto 2009. Assista agora no link abaixo: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RJEIuMcYtzA O Curador no Antena Paulista: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wO_JFfNiGlE NOVO LOCAL DO MUSEU DO COMPUTADOR. ABERTO AO PUBLICO. www.museudocomputador.com.br Rua dos Andradas, 237 - Cep 01208-000 Telefone - (11) 4666-7545 - 8874-0100 Claro ou 88794-6730 TIM -Ligue para agendar. Contato: Jos? Carlos Valle ? Curador E-mail: curador at museudocomputador.com.br - Agendamento de Escolas, ligue para detalhes. Aberto para Escolas de segunda a sexta das 1'0:00 as 16:00 horas. Pre?o: R$5,00 com monitoria. Para publico sem monitoria: R$ 2,00. Informa??es sobre doa??es no Blog: http://blogdocurador.museudocomputador.com.br PALESTRAS COM O CURADOR: http://blogdocurador.museudocomputador.com.br/?p=50 MAPA DO MUSEU NOVO http://maps.google.com.br/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=pt-BR&geocode=&q=RUA+DOS+ANDRADAS,+237+-SP&sll=-23.69859,-46.826904&sspn=0.008704,0.014141&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=R.+dos+Andradas,+237+-+Rep%C3%BAblica,+S%C3%A3o+Paulo+-+SP,+01208-000&z=16 From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Feb 2 07:54:22 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 2 Feb 2010 08:54:22 -0500 Subject: WW sockets In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > I have a few packs of wire wrap sockets - all 40 pin Texas Instruments > - maybe about 45 pieces total. Free for postage from 10512. Inquire > off list, please. Gone! -- Will From evan at snarc.net Tue Feb 2 11:14:28 2010 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Tue, 02 Feb 2010 12:14:28 -0500 Subject: [Fwd: [BBC-Micro] UK Vintage Computer Festival 2010] In-Reply-To: <4B6779E9.9010908@philpem.me.uk> References: <4B6779E9.9010908@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4B685D74.2030701@snarc.net> > Hi guys, > > I spotted this on the BBC-Micro mailing list -- figured a few UK-based > classiccmp'ers might be interested... It looks like the VCF has > finally made its way across the pond. Them ferries sure are slow! :) Indeed! This event is in addition to Hans' VCF Europa (Germany). And, of course, it's 100% Sellam-endorsed. From pat at computer-refuge.org Tue Feb 2 11:39:53 2010 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Tue, 2 Feb 2010 12:39:53 -0500 Subject: Selling Calcomp 565 plotter Message-ID: <201002021239.53154.pat@computer-refuge.org> I'm working on clearing out my warehouse, and I'm selling one of my Calcomp 565 plotters on ebay. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=220550441602 It came with a load of DG Nova gear that I rescued, but I've never had the opportunity to test it out. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Feb 2 11:44:11 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 2 Feb 2010 12:44:11 -0500 Subject: Selling Calcomp 565 plotter In-Reply-To: <201002021239.53154.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <201002021239.53154.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <36C3D71D-EC51-4CC0-9ED4-5D59122AEFED@neurotica.com> On Feb 2, 2010, at 12:39 PM, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > I'm working on clearing out my warehouse, and I'm selling one of my > Calcomp 565 plotters on ebay. > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=220550441602 > > It came with a load of DG Nova gear that I rescued, but I've never had > the opportunity to test it out. URRRRRRRRR!!! Wantwantwant! Being broke SUCKS! -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From pat at computer-refuge.org Tue Feb 2 11:49:19 2010 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Tue, 2 Feb 2010 12:49:19 -0500 Subject: Selling Calcomp 565 plotter In-Reply-To: <36C3D71D-EC51-4CC0-9ED4-5D59122AEFED@neurotica.com> References: <201002021239.53154.pat@computer-refuge.org> <36C3D71D-EC51-4CC0-9ED4-5D59122AEFED@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <201002021249.19124.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Tuesday 02 February 2010, Dave McGuire wrote: > On Feb 2, 2010, at 12:39 PM, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > > I'm working on clearing out my warehouse, and I'm selling one of my > > Calcomp 565 plotters on ebay. > > > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=220550441602 > > > > It came with a load of DG Nova gear that I rescued, but I've never > > had the opportunity to test it out. > > URRRRRRRRR!!! Wantwantwant! Being broke SUCKS! Don't worry, I have another one left. :) I don't plan on selling that one for a while. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From keithvz at verizon.net Tue Feb 2 11:52:22 2010 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith) Date: Tue, 02 Feb 2010 12:52:22 -0500 Subject: Selling Calcomp 565 plotter In-Reply-To: <36C3D71D-EC51-4CC0-9ED4-5D59122AEFED@neurotica.com> References: <201002021239.53154.pat@computer-refuge.org> <36C3D71D-EC51-4CC0-9ED4-5D59122AEFED@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4B686656.7000702@verizon.net> Dave McGuire wrote: > On Feb 2, 2010, at 12:39 PM, Patrick Finnegan wrote: >> I'm working on clearing out my warehouse, and I'm selling one of my >> Calcomp 565 plotters on ebay. >> >> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=220550441602 >> >> It came with a load of DG Nova gear that I rescued, but I've never had >> the opportunity to test it out. > > URRRRRRRRR!!! Wantwantwant! Being broke SUCKS! > Maybe if you didn't spend so much on your macs, you'd have money. :) Keith From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Feb 2 12:10:21 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 2 Feb 2010 13:10:21 -0500 Subject: Selling Calcomp 565 plotter In-Reply-To: <4B686656.7000702@verizon.net> References: <201002021239.53154.pat@computer-refuge.org> <36C3D71D-EC51-4CC0-9ED4-5D59122AEFED@neurotica.com> <4B686656.7000702@verizon.net> Message-ID: On Feb 2, 2010, at 12:52 PM, Keith wrote: >>> I'm working on clearing out my warehouse, and I'm selling one of my >>> Calcomp 565 plotters on ebay. >>> >>> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=220550441602 >>> >>> It came with a load of DG Nova gear that I rescued, but I've >>> never had >>> the opportunity to test it out. >> URRRRRRRRR!!! Wantwantwant! Being broke SUCKS! > > Maybe if you didn't spend so much on your macs, you'd have money. :) Smartass. ;) But no, sorry, not true. These machines don't need to be replaced every six months, so they're far more economical than PC garbage. ;) -Dave > -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Feb 2 12:10:34 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 2 Feb 2010 13:10:34 -0500 Subject: Selling Calcomp 565 plotter In-Reply-To: <201002021249.19124.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <201002021239.53154.pat@computer-refuge.org> <36C3D71D-EC51-4CC0-9ED4-5D59122AEFED@neurotica.com> <201002021249.19124.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <7A52FAD8-65BF-47E8-9259-624BF770AED7@neurotica.com> On Feb 2, 2010, at 12:49 PM, Patrick Finnegan wrote: >>> I'm working on clearing out my warehouse, and I'm selling one of my >>> Calcomp 565 plotters on ebay. >>> >>> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=220550441602 >>> >>> It came with a load of DG Nova gear that I rescued, but I've never >>> had the opportunity to test it out. >> >> URRRRRRRRR!!! Wantwantwant! Being broke SUCKS! > > Don't worry, I have another one left. :) I don't plan on selling that > one for a while. 8-) -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From keithvz at verizon.net Tue Feb 2 12:15:30 2010 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith) Date: Tue, 02 Feb 2010 13:15:30 -0500 Subject: Selling Calcomp 565 plotter In-Reply-To: References: <201002021239.53154.pat@computer-refuge.org> <36C3D71D-EC51-4CC0-9ED4-5D59122AEFED@neurotica.com> <4B686656.7000702@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4B686BC2.4040707@verizon.net> Dave McGuire wrote: >>> URRRRRRRRR!!! Wantwantwant! Being broke SUCKS! >> >> Maybe if you didn't spend so much on your macs, you'd have money. :) > > Smartass. ;) But no, sorry, not true. These machines don't need to > be replaced every six months, so they're far more economical than PC > garbage. ;) > > -Dave Hahaha. I was going to add the lost productivity due to the fact that it's OSX, but I didn't want to send you over the edge. :) Keith From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Tue Feb 2 12:15:33 2010 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 02 Feb 2010 12:15:33 -0600 Subject: [Fwd: [BBC-Micro] UK Vintage Computer Festival 2010] In-Reply-To: <4B6779E9.9010908@philpem.me.uk> References: <4B6779E9.9010908@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4B686BC5.5000708@gmail.com> Philip Pemberton wrote: > Hi guys, > > I spotted this on the BBC-Micro mailing list -- figured a few UK-based > classiccmp'ers might be interested... It looks like the VCF has finally > made its way across the pond. Them ferries sure are slow! :) :-) It was mainly a politics which held it up in the past - then it took a while for the national museum once established to "find its feet", so this is the first year that it's really been viable. From jack.rubin at ameritech.net Tue Feb 2 12:36:27 2010 From: jack.rubin at ameritech.net (Jack Rubin) Date: Tue, 2 Feb 2010 10:36:27 -0800 (PST) Subject: pdp11 bus - how long can it go? Message-ID: <776859.26814.qm@web83713.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> As I slowly dig into "my" new 11/34A, I'm amazed by the bus configuration. Starting from the CPU, the main BA11 chassis has a double (9-slot) system unit, joined to a single (4-slot) SU by an?M9202 jumper. From the last slot in the chassis, a Unibus cable runs to a junction block on the cabinet back door. A second cable runs from there to a remote BA11, also with 2 SUs. A third cable runs back to the rack door/junction block (labled "bus station", BTW) and finally a fourth cable runs to a small rack mounted I/O box with a single SU and?an M9302 terminator in the last slot. Cable runs must be about 20-25 feet total. At first, I was worried that the length was too long (though it was a working system in use for several years) but after a quick websearch (www.psych.usyd.edu/pdp-11/unibus.html), I see that the bus can be up to FIFTY FEET before a repeater is needed. My short term plan is to pull all the cables and move the 9302 into the system box for testing. Now I'm worried that the bus might be too short - do I need to look for one of the "new" jumpers with two feet of cable or should it work with my old M9202 jumper block? Jack From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Feb 2 12:48:04 2010 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 2 Feb 2010 10:48:04 -0800 (PST) Subject: Selling Calcomp 565 plotter In-Reply-To: <4B686BC2.4040707@verizon.net> References: <201002021239.53154.pat@computer-refuge.org> <36C3D71D-EC51-4CC0-9ED4-5D59122AEFED@neurotica.com> <4B686656.7000702@verizon.net> <4B686BC2.4040707@verizon.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 2 Feb 2010, Keith wrote: > Hahaha. I was going to add the lost productivity due to the fact that it's > OSX, but I didn't want to send you over the edge. :) That tends to be increased productivity. Zane From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Tue Feb 2 13:29:50 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Tue, 2 Feb 2010 17:29:50 -0200 Subject: Selling Calcomp 565 plotter References: <201002021239.53154.pat@computer-refuge.org><36C3D71D-EC51-4CC0-9ED4-5D59122AEFED@neurotica.com><4B686656.7000702@verizon.net> Message-ID: <05b901caa43e$3b66c940$0132a8c0@Alexandre> >> Maybe if you didn't spend so much on your macs, you'd have money. :) > Smartass. ;) But no, sorry, not true. These machines don't need to be > replaced every six months, so they're far more economical than PC > garbage. ;) I still use my thinkpad Pentium 233 (yes!) everyday, running windows 2000 and doing embbedded programming on it, running office, etc. (of course, I'm open to offers of newer thinkpads, maybe someone has a spare lying as a doorstopper, who knows? :D) From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Tue Feb 2 13:59:07 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Tue, 02 Feb 2010 19:59:07 +0000 Subject: [Fwd: [BBC-Micro] UK Vintage Computer Festival 2010] In-Reply-To: <4B686BC5.5000708@gmail.com> References: <4B6779E9.9010908@philpem.me.uk> <4B686BC5.5000708@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B68840B.8060202@philpem.me.uk> Jules Richardson wrote: > :-) It was mainly a politics which held it up in the past - then it > took a while for the national museum once established to "find its > feet", so this is the first year that it's really been viable. Yeah, I've heard the rumours. In any case, once there's a little more info released, I'll look into booking a day (or a weekend) off work to go. Should be interesting... If I can get the disc analyser finished for then, I might look into getting a bench and showing it off (assuming it doesn't fall foul of the "no PCs or related hardware!" rule). I've actually finished the preliminary schematic for the disc analyser (which one of my friends suggested I call "DiscFerret" as a subtle jab at the Catweasel). I've swapped out the microcontroller for a newer, cheaper part -- to get the full 12MIPS out of the 18F4550 you have to run it at 5V, which means a 16-bit level-translator is needed to make it talk to the FPGA. Using a PIC18F87J50 means I can scrap the translator and run the whole thing off 3.3V. I can also tidy up some of the FPGA logic to use 8-bit register addressing (the J50 has 8-bit addressing on the muxed parallel port, the 4550 uses 4-bit addressing). I'm going to shut up now, I'm giving far too much away... :) -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From IanK at vulcan.com Tue Feb 2 14:03:03 2010 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Tue, 2 Feb 2010 12:03:03 -0800 Subject: Classic Epson printer emulators In-Reply-To: <4B65CE25.2948.1DDBBFC@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4B6639B5.42702BFA@cs.ubc.ca> <4B65CE25.2948.1DDBBFC@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chuck Guzis > Sent: Sunday, January 31, 2010 6:38 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Classic Epson printer emulators > > On 31 Jan 2010 at 18:17, Brent Hilpert wrote: > > > I thought the fading issue was quite commonly realised, esp. if > you're > > the type that hangs on to receipts. On the other hand, I have dozens > > of printouts from high school in 1976, from the printer for a HP9830 > > computer/calculator, taped to sheets and bound in a folder, all of > > which are completely legible, very slight fading, except for some > > corners under 3M tape which have faded completely. > > Or old faxes printed out on thermal fax paper. I've got a few from > about 15 years ago (technical reference stuff sent by a considerate > manufacturer) that are all but unreadable today. I should have made > photocopies, too late now. > > Another bit of proof that the story of our civilization is written in > sand... > Another thing I learned about thermal paper: I had a small fountain on my desk. It was well-behaved and didn't leak or spray onto the desk, but thermal printouts (e.g. credit card receipts) left next to it would shrivel up in short order! -- Ian From IanK at vulcan.com Tue Feb 2 14:07:22 2010 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Tue, 2 Feb 2010 12:07:22 -0800 Subject: Selling Calcomp 565 plotter In-Reply-To: <05b901caa43e$3b66c940$0132a8c0@Alexandre> References: <201002021239.53154.pat@computer-refuge.org><36C3D71D-EC51-4CC0-9ED4-5D59122AEFED@neurotica.com><4B686656.7000702@verizon.net> <05b901caa43e$3b66c940$0132a8c0@Alexandre> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Alexandre Souza - Listas > Sent: Tuesday, February 02, 2010 11:30 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Selling Calcomp 565 plotter > > >> Maybe if you didn't spend so much on your macs, you'd have money. :) > > Smartass. ;) But no, sorry, not true. These machines don't need > to be > > replaced every six months, so they're far more economical than PC > > garbage. ;) > > I still use my thinkpad Pentium 233 (yes!) everyday, running > windows > 2000 and doing embbedded programming on it, running office, etc. > > (of course, I'm open to offers of newer thinkpads, maybe someone > has a > spare lying as a doorstopper, who knows? :D) > I'm not sure I'd trust a ThinkPad to serve reliably as a doorstop - at least not without the latest service pack. Having said that, the X61 I was issued by my employer is a reasonably useful machine (after I purged it of Vista). But my personal laptop is a PowerBook G4. :-p -- Ian From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Tue Feb 2 14:25:31 2010 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Tue, 2 Feb 2010 21:25:31 +0100 Subject: pdp11 bus - how long can it go? In-Reply-To: <776859.26814.qm@web83713.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <776859.26814.qm@web83713.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: From: "Jack Rubin" Sent: Tuesday, February 02, 2010 7:36 PM To: Subject: pdp11 bus - how long can it go? > As I slowly dig into "my" new 11/34A, I'm amazed by the bus configuration. > Starting from the CPU, the main BA11 chassis has a double (9-slot) system > unit, joined to a single (4-slot) SU by an M9202 jumper. From the last > slot in the chassis, a Unibus cable runs to a junction block on the > cabinet back door. A second cable runs from there to a remote BA11, also > with 2 SUs. A third cable runs back to the rack door/junction block > (labled "bus station", BTW) and finally a fourth cable runs to a small > rack mounted I/O box with a single SU and an M9302 terminator in the last > slot. Cable runs must be about 20-25 feet total. > > At first, I was worried that the length was too long (though it was a > working system in use for several years) but after a quick websearch > (www.psych.usyd.edu/pdp-11/unibus.html), I see that the bus can be up to > FIFTY FEET before a repeater is needed. My short term plan is to pull all > the cables and move the 9302 into the system box for testing. Now I'm > worried that the bus might be too short - do I need to look for one of the > "new" jumpers with two feet of cable or should it work with my old M9202 > jumper block? > > Jack Hi Jack, If I understand you correctly, you want to get the remote BA11 and I/O box out of the loop. The quickest way is to pull the BC11 cable from the last slot of the 4-slot SU in the main BA11 chassis, and put the M9302 where the BC11 cable was. That all. If the 4-slot SU in the main BA11 box is further empty (not clear to me), you can even get rid of that 4-slot SU too by pulling the bridging M9202 and put the M9302 in the last slot of the 9-slot processor backplane. The M920 jumper connects directly from the left to the right connector PCB, it is the M9202 jumper block that actually has 2 feet of "BC11" cable between the PCBs. The M920 was used in the PDP-11/20 and 11/40 AFAIK. The M9202 is typically found in the 11/34(A). - Henk. From useddec at gmail.com Tue Feb 2 15:00:18 2010 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Tue, 2 Feb 2010 15:00:18 -0600 Subject: pdp11 bus - how long can it go? In-Reply-To: <776859.26814.qm@web83713.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <776859.26814.qm@web83713.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <624966d61002021300g39e519edi688b60b8bcce5833@mail.gmail.com> We had an 11/45 ( as I recall) at the U of Illinois that was said to be the longest unibus in the world. It had 2 DB11 repeaters on it, and there was talk or putting on a third. I can't remember how many bus loads were on there, but this sys was loaded. Paul On Tue, Feb 2, 2010 at 12:36 PM, Jack Rubin wrote: > As I slowly dig into "my" new 11/34A, I'm amazed by the bus configuration. > Starting from the CPU, the main BA11 chassis has a double (9-slot) system > unit, joined to a single (4-slot) SU by an M9202 jumper. From the last slot > in the chassis, a Unibus cable runs to a junction block on the cabinet back > door. A second cable runs from there to a remote BA11, also with 2 SUs. A > third cable runs back to the rack door/junction block (labled "bus station", > BTW) and finally a fourth cable runs to a small rack mounted I/O box with a > single SU and an M9302 terminator in the last slot. Cable runs must be about > 20-25 feet total. > > At first, I was worried that the length was too long (though it was a > working system in use for several years) but after a quick websearch ( > www.psych.usyd.edu/pdp-11/unibus.html), I see that the bus can be up to > FIFTY FEET before a repeater is needed. My short term plan is to pull all > the cables and move the 9302 into the system box for testing. Now I'm > worried that the bus might be too short - do I need to look for one of the > "new" jumpers with two feet of cable or should it work with my old M9202 > jumper block? > > Jack > From useddec at gmail.com Tue Feb 2 15:05:13 2010 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Tue, 2 Feb 2010 15:05:13 -0600 Subject: pdp11 bus - how long can it go? In-Reply-To: <776859.26814.qm@web83713.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <776859.26814.qm@web83713.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <624966d61002021305x359fa3b2s14632fe09cb8d5d9@mail.gmail.com> In case you didn't know, the legnth of most DEC cables is usually in the -xx after the part number. The unibus cable BC11A-10 is a ten foot cable. A BNxxx-xx is usually in meters Paul On Tue, Feb 2, 2010 at 12:36 PM, Jack Rubin wrote: > As I slowly dig into "my" new 11/34A, I'm amazed by the bus configuration. > Starting from the CPU, the main BA11 chassis has a double (9-slot) system > unit, joined to a single (4-slot) SU by an M9202 jumper. From the last slot > in the chassis, a Unibus cable runs to a junction block on the cabinet back > door. A second cable runs from there to a remote BA11, also with 2 SUs. A > third cable runs back to the rack door/junction block (labled "bus station", > BTW) and finally a fourth cable runs to a small rack mounted I/O box with a > single SU and an M9302 terminator in the last slot. Cable runs must be about > 20-25 feet total. > > At first, I was worried that the length was too long (though it was a > working system in use for several years) but after a quick websearch ( > www.psych.usyd.edu/pdp-11/unibus.html), I see that the bus can be up to > FIFTY FEET before a repeater is needed. My short term plan is to pull all > the cables and move the 9302 into the system box for testing. Now I'm > worried that the bus might be too short - do I need to look for one of the > "new" jumpers with two feet of cable or should it work with my old M9202 > jumper block? > > Jack > From bmachacek at pcisys.net Tue Feb 2 15:29:07 2010 From: bmachacek at pcisys.net (Bill Machacek) Date: Tue, 2 Feb 2010 14:29:07 -0700 Subject: IBM PCAM info needed Message-ID: <022701caa44e$c071ac80$0200000a@NITRO> Hi, I am applying to the VA for disability benefits based on a hearing problem that occurred while I was in the Air Force (early '60s). I worked in a very noisy PCAM room with lots of IBM 407s, repro punched card machines, and sorters. I have been trying to find articles or people who can verify these machines were sufficiently noisy to cause hearing problems. The VA turned down my first basic request, so now I need more details in just how loud these machines were. I know we have quite a few "old timers" on this board and I'm hoping someone can help me find the information I'm looking for. Let me know offline the names of any books, magazines or people that I may look for or contact concerning this issue or if you know of any websites that may contain this information. This note may not be quite "on topic", but I've run out of places to look for this information. Any help will be greatly appreciated. Thanks.... Bill Machacek Colo. Springs, CO bmachacek at pcisys.net From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Feb 2 16:24:09 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 2 Feb 2010 17:24:09 -0500 Subject: Selling Calcomp 565 plotter In-Reply-To: <4B686BC2.4040707@verizon.net> References: <201002021239.53154.pat@computer-refuge.org> <36C3D71D-EC51-4CC0-9ED4-5D59122AEFED@neurotica.com> <4B686656.7000702@verizon.net> <4B686BC2.4040707@verizon.net> Message-ID: <906D14D2-C265-47E8-841E-C6950509D6FE@neurotica.com> On Feb 2, 2010, at 1:15 PM, Keith wrote: >>>> URRRRRRRRR!!! Wantwantwant! Being broke SUCKS! >>> >>> Maybe if you didn't spend so much on your macs, you'd have money. :) >> Smartass. ;) But no, sorry, not true. These machines don't >> need to be replaced every six months, so they're far more >> economical than PC garbage. ;) >> -Dave > > Hahaha. I was going to add the lost productivity due to the fact > that it's OSX, but I didn't want to send you over the edge. :) Shall we have a productivity challenge, my friend? ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Feb 2 16:49:13 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 2 Feb 2010 14:49:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Fwd: [BBC-Micro] UK Vintage Computer Festival 2010] In-Reply-To: <4B6779E9.9010908@philpem.me.uk> References: <4B6779E9.9010908@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <20100202144742.K12983@shell.lmi.net> Is that affiliated with VCF? Or have they appropriated the name without authorization (under an assumption that that is a generic descriptive name?) From evan at snarc.net Tue Feb 2 16:59:14 2010 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Tue, 02 Feb 2010 17:59:14 -0500 Subject: [Fwd: [BBC-Micro] UK Vintage Computer Festival 2010] In-Reply-To: <20100202144742.K12983@shell.lmi.net> References: <4B6779E9.9010908@philpem.me.uk> <20100202144742.K12983@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4B68AE42.9010208@snarc.net> > Is that affiliated with VCF? > > Or have they appropriated the name without authorization (under an assumption that that is a generic descriptive name?) > As I mentioned a few posts ago in this thread, VCF-UK is 100% Sellam-endorsed. :) From pat at computer-refuge.org Tue Feb 2 18:23:51 2010 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Tue, 2 Feb 2010 19:23:51 -0500 Subject: Selling Calcomp 565 plotter In-Reply-To: <4B686656.7000702@verizon.net> References: <201002021239.53154.pat@computer-refuge.org> <36C3D71D-EC51-4CC0-9ED4-5D59122AEFED@neurotica.com> <4B686656.7000702@verizon.net> Message-ID: <201002021923.51198.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Tuesday 02 February 2010, Keith wrote: > Maybe if you didn't spend so much on your macs, you'd have money. :) Wow, off-topic on the 3rd reply. I think that's a new record. :( Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From geoffr at zipcon.net Tue Feb 2 18:40:49 2010 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoffrey Reed) Date: Tue, 02 Feb 2010 16:40:49 -0800 Subject: Selling Calcomp 565 plotter In-Reply-To: <4B686BC2.4040707@verizon.net> Message-ID: On 2/2/10 10:15 AM, "Keith" wrote: > Dave McGuire wrote: > >>>> URRRRRRRRR!!! Wantwantwant! Being broke SUCKS! >>> >>> Maybe if you didn't spend so much on your macs, you'd have money. :) >> >> Smartass. ;) But no, sorry, not true. These machines don't need to >> be replaced every six months, so they're far more economical than PC >> garbage. ;) >> >> -Dave > > Hahaha. I was going to add the lost productivity due to the fact that > it's OSX, but I didn't want to send you over the edge. :) > > Keith I far prefer my mac-pro to any of the commodity pc hardware I have. From dkelvey at hotmail.com Tue Feb 2 19:17:59 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Tue, 2 Feb 2010 17:17:59 -0800 Subject: Poly8813 on ebay In-Reply-To: References: <4B686BC2.4040707@verizon.net>, Message-ID: Hi I thought I'd mention that there is a Poly 8813 ( actually a 8812 ) on ebay. One of the pictures shows me with a working machine but the machine on ebay is not my machine ( although it might be thought as being mine ). It is one of the two machine that mine was one of that is mentioned on one of the web pages and serial numbers. The working state of the one on the web is unknown to me. I would be willing to help, anyone that buys the machine, to bring it to life. I can provide a boot disk, disk images and even help diagnose problems. I think his asking price is a little high but he seems to be open to offers as well. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail: Trusted email with Microsoft?s powerful SPAM protection. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/201469226/direct/01/ From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Feb 2 20:50:55 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 2 Feb 2010 18:50:55 -0800 (PST) Subject: Selling Calcomp 565 plotter In-Reply-To: <201002021923.51198.pat@computer-refuge.org> from Patrick Finnegan at "Feb 2, 10 07:23:51 pm" Message-ID: <201002030250.o132otH6010610@floodgap.com> > > Maybe if you didn't spend so much on your macs, you'd have money. :) > > Wow, off-topic on the 3rd reply. I think that's a new record. :( I'm going to go ahead and finish this thread: anyone who doesn't use a Mac is Hitler and Windows users are Nazis, etc. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- GODWIN BINGO! -------------------------------------------------------------- From jpero at sympatico.ca Tue Feb 2 21:21:54 2010 From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero at sympatico.ca) Date: Tue, 02 Feb 2010 22:21:54 -0500 Subject: off topic: video processing for quality picture reasons from SD source. Message-ID: Hi anyone, I have been researching and trying some softwaresolutions and hardware with poor success and output to a 1080 LCD TV (high end) thus bypassing the TV's scaler and display direct without processing. Canada still do SD stuff till Aug 12 20011 HDTV switch over. flat panel TVs with built in tuner do rather hack job of SD video that I knew these should do good job. Ditto with composite and s-video. But there is bit of unique issues that will be addressed below. I have tried three video capture cards and software solutions, constant fussing and long start up, average picture quality, tend to be darker. And second issue is EIA608 is closed caption (CC) decoding for SD and displaying does not exist or erratic working in many software and hardware. I already tried a JVC HM-DT100U and it has tuner and output on component or HDMI but internal video processing for SD is not up to standard and as bad as youtube quality with heavy artifacts. Video processors, DVDO Edge does not have CC capability. I sent email to Anchor Bay Tech of their product and they do not implement this at all. If it was, that would be end of the story and bought the 800 buck video processor. But I'm still not sure of their quality. So I still exploring options and thinking of solutions. I intend to use a old S-VHS VCR as tuner and output on S-video. I have not found a decent a device that has high quality processing and output on HDMI or all analog circuitry and output on component to take advantage of higher quality A/D coverters found in TVs than composite or s-video. Options: 1. Buy DVDO Edge and s-video CC decoder. But I'm not sure on DVDO Edge's performance. 2. Buy up broadcaster quality equipment: Obtain RF demodulator (channel selectable via keypad or remote control of some type (remote or PC) with SDI output box (some can deal with CC onboard which is nice), or same idea except output on component if there's one. If it is SDI output and no CC, buy SDI CC decoder with CC overlay box, and get Blackmagic Design's "Monitoring HDLink Pro DVI" to hook all up. I have found one or two on some of these but cost for new one is way over 2,000 to 5,000. Ouch. Used source is best option but where to go? I tried broadcasting engineering forum and smartcow both does not address what I'm trying to find and get suggestions. Another reason I really like broadcaster equipment concept is these have deep bandwidth and little processing (selectively is good) and easily plugs together, setup and forget it, just punch in channels. I'm that fussy. CRT on SD quality is excellent and I use cable, built in video processors in TV threw away too much, soften and lose details to brother me so much enough to get me in a tizzy. I know broadcaster digitize all in and out feeds but quality is much higher. Cheers, Wizard From rborsuk at colourfull.com Tue Feb 2 21:42:24 2010 From: rborsuk at colourfull.com (Robert Borsuk) Date: Tue, 2 Feb 2010 22:42:24 -0500 Subject: Poly8813 on ebay In-Reply-To: References: <4B686BC2.4040707@verizon.net>, Message-ID: What is the auction number? On Feb 2, 2010, at 8:17 PM, dwight elvey wrote: > > Hi > I thought I'd mention that there is a Poly 8813 ( actually a 8812 ) > on ebay. One of the pictures shows me with a working machine > but the machine on ebay is not my machine ( although it might > be thought as being mine ). It is one of the two machine that mine > was one of that is mentioned on one of the web pages and serial > numbers. > The working state of the one on the web is unknown to me. > I would be willing to help, anyone that buys the machine, to > bring it to life. I can provide a boot disk, disk images and even help > diagnose problems. > I think his asking price is a little high but he seems to be open > to offers as well. > Dwight > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Hotmail: Trusted email with Microsoft?s powerful SPAM protection. > http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/201469226/direct/01/ Rob Borsuk email: rborsuk at colourfull.com Colourfull Creations Web: http://www.colourfull.com From trixter at oldskool.org Tue Feb 2 21:54:22 2010 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Tue, 02 Feb 2010 21:54:22 -0600 Subject: Free for pickup In-Reply-To: <9170DDFC830640998DEADA523455E505@dell8300> References: <990883.74434.qm@web55304.mail.re4.yahoo.com> <000e01caa29f$29640140$6501a8c0@HP24150918428> <9170DDFC830640998DEADA523455E505@dell8300> Message-ID: <4B68F36E.3010203@oldskool.org> On 2/2/2010 12:55 AM, Teo Zenios wrote: > Get much interest in that lot yet? > > The Model 70 486 is interesting along with the PS/2 TV box. What *was* the PS/2 TV box? I thought he was being tongue-in-cheek describing a particular type of monitor. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Tue Feb 2 21:57:01 2010 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Tue, 02 Feb 2010 21:57:01 -0600 Subject: off topic: video processing for quality picture reasons from SD source. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B68F40D.7000805@oldskool.org> I'm not sure what actual questions you're asking -- you regurgitated a lot of information without any clear questions or problems you're trying to solve -- but if you have an analog-to-digital question or a scaler question you should ask them on AVS's forums at http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/ On 2/2/2010 9:21 PM, jpero at sympatico.ca wrote: > Hi anyone, I have been researching and trying some softwaresolutions and > hardware with poor success and output to a 1080 LCD TV (high end) thus > bypassing the TV's scaler and display direct without processing. > > Canada still do SD stuff till Aug 12 20011 HDTV switch over. flat panel > TVs with built in tuner do rather hack job of SD video that I knew these > should do good job. Ditto with composite and s-video. But there is bit of > unique issues that will be addressed below. > > I have tried three video capture cards and software solutions, constant > fussing and long start up, average picture quality, tend to be darker. > And second issue is EIA608 is closed caption (CC) decoding for SD and > displaying does not exist or erratic working in many software and hardware. > I already tried a JVC HM-DT100U and it has tuner and output on > component or HDMI but internal video processing for SD is not up to > standard and as bad as youtube quality with heavy artifacts. Video > processors, DVDO Edge does not have CC capability. I sent email to > Anchor Bay Tech of their product and they do not implement this at all. If it > was, that would be end of the story and bought the 800 buck video > processor. But I'm still not sure of their quality. So I still exploring options > and thinking of solutions. > > I intend to use a old S-VHS VCR as tuner and output on S-video. I have > not found a decent a device that has high quality processing and output on > HDMI or all analog circuitry and output on component to take advantage of > higher quality A/D coverters found in TVs than composite or s-video. > > Options: > > 1. Buy DVDO Edge and s-video CC decoder. But I'm not sure on DVDO > Edge's performance. > > 2. Buy up broadcaster quality equipment: > Obtain RF demodulator (channel selectable via keypad or remote control of > some type (remote or PC) with SDI output box (some can deal with CC > onboard which is nice), or same idea except output on component if there's > one. If it is SDI output and no CC, buy SDI CC decoder with CC overlay > box, and get Blackmagic Design's "Monitoring HDLink Pro DVI" to hook all > up. I have found one or two on some of these but cost for new one is way > over 2,000 to 5,000. Ouch. Used source is best option but where to go? > I tried broadcasting engineering forum and smartcow both does not address > what I'm trying to find and get suggestions. > > Another reason I really like broadcaster equipment concept is these have > deep bandwidth and little processing (selectively is good) and easily plugs > together, setup and forget it, just punch in channels. > > I'm that fussy. CRT on SD quality is excellent and I use cable, built in > video processors in TV threw away too much, soften and lose details to > brother me so much enough to get me in a tizzy. I know broadcaster > digitize all in and out feeds but quality is much higher. > > Cheers, Wizard > -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From tosteve at yahoo.com Tue Feb 2 22:00:29 2010 From: tosteve at yahoo.com (steven stengel) Date: Tue, 2 Feb 2010 20:00:29 -0800 (PST) Subject: Poly8813 on ebay In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <419360.31452.qm@web110604.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> ebay 200421292409 Only $7,999 !! I guess it's pretty rare... --- On Tue, 2/2/10, Robert Borsuk wrote: > From: Robert Borsuk > Subject: Re: Poly8813 on ebay > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Date: Tuesday, February 2, 2010, 7:42 PM > What is the auction number? > > > On Feb 2, 2010, at 8:17 PM, dwight elvey wrote: > > > > > Hi > > I thought I'd mention that there is a Poly 8813 ( > actually a 8812 ) > > on ebay. One of the pictures shows me with a working > machine > > but the machine on ebay is not my machine ( although > it might > > be thought as being mine ). It is one of the two > machine that mine > > was one of that is mentioned on one of the web pages > and serial > > numbers. > > The working state of the one on the web is unknown to > me. > > I would be willing to help, anyone that buys the > machine, to > > bring it to life. I can provide a boot disk, disk > images and even help > > diagnose problems. > > I think his asking price is a little high but he seems > to be open > > to offers as well. > > Dwight > > > > ??? > ???????? > ?????? ??? > ? > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Hotmail: Trusted email with Microsoft?s powerful > SPAM protection. > > http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/201469226/direct/01/ > > > > Rob Borsuk > email: rborsuk at colourfull.com > Colourfull Creations > Web: http://www.colourfull.com > > From tosteve at yahoo.com Tue Feb 2 22:10:38 2010 From: tosteve at yahoo.com (steven stengel) Date: Tue, 2 Feb 2010 20:10:38 -0800 (PST) Subject: Available: IBM Displaywriter in Weldon, NC Message-ID: <542075.68026.qm@web110608.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Not my system, please contact Margaret if interested: > I have an IBM Displaywriter I purchased in 1983. > The Displaywriter still works and has a Selectric Printer. > I also have all eleven "Dick and Jane" instruction manuals > That came with the machine. > > mhofmann at 3rddoor.com > > Not my system, please contact Margaret if interested ^^ I believe that she wishes to donate it. From teoz at neo.rr.com Tue Feb 2 22:21:29 2010 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Tue, 2 Feb 2010 23:21:29 -0500 Subject: Free for pickup References: <990883.74434.qm@web55304.mail.re4.yahoo.com> <000e01caa29f$29640140$6501a8c0@HP24150918428><9170DDFC830640998DEADA523455E505@dell8300> <4B68F36E.3010203@oldskool.org> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Leonard" To: ; "Discussion at mail.mobygames.com :On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, February 02, 2010 10:54 PM Subject: Re: Free for pickup > On 2/2/2010 12:55 AM, Teo Zenios wrote: >> Get much interest in that lot yet? >> >> The Model 70 486 is interesting along with the PS/2 TV box. > > What *was* the PS/2 TV box? I thought he was being tongue-in-cheek > describing a particular type of monitor. > http://ohlandl.ipv7.net/video/PS2_TV.html From marvin at west.net Tue Feb 2 22:46:11 2010 From: marvin at west.net (Marvin Johnston) Date: Tue, 02 Feb 2010 20:46:11 -0800 Subject: Poly8813 on ebay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B68FF93.2020402@west.net> > From: dwight elvey > > Hi > I thought I'd mention that there is a Poly 8813 ( actually a 8812 ) > on ebay. One of the pictures shows me with a working machine > but the machine on ebay is not my machine ( although it might > be thought as being mine ). It is one of the two machine that mine > was one of that is mentioned on one of the web pages and serial > numbers. I tend to think his asking price ($8000) is WAY too high in spite of the condition since it doesn't include any docs or disks. But if anyone decides to buy it, I can supply a copy of the manuals and other board documentation if they aren't already online. But for a mere $4000, I'd be more than happy to provide a working Poly 8813 (not 8812) with documentation and boot disks as I currently have at least two :). And for a mere $4000, I can do the same with a working Poly 88 AKA the Orange Toaster :) as I currently have maybe four or five. FWIW, only two Polymorphic items have closed on ebay in the last 90 days; a set of four Poly S-100 boards (two memory boards, CPU, and ???) at $225.00 and a Poly 88 flyer at $9.99 not sold. I love ebay (NOT) :). Marvin From stephane.tsacas at gmail.com Tue Feb 2 22:52:09 2010 From: stephane.tsacas at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?St=E9phane_Tsacas?=) Date: Wed, 3 Feb 2010 05:52:09 +0100 Subject: New PDP 11/34 Message-ID: Hi, A PDP11/34 has just arrived... I need some basic help before I'll power it on. The description of the current setup can be seen there : http://www.conservatique.com/pdp/pdp-1134?. 1- There is 2 wires cable coming out the front panel, pins TB1/TB2, which goes to the rear of the box, towards the power supply. From the schematics Fig 9-5 (p64): http://docs.google.com/viewer?url=http://www.mirrorservice.org/sites/www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp11/1134/KY11-LB_MaintMan.pdf this cable should go to a M9301 ? What if I don't have a M9301? Is there a M9301 Boostrap/Terminator Maintenance Manual available somewhere by any chance? 2- How can I test the power supply? I don't see any voltage control points, I couldn't find how I can?access?to the boards under the transformer. If anyone has the following boards for sale/trade, please drop me a mail: - a M9301 ! - any memory which can fit (MOS or CORE). I have some 11/70 core modules for trade I think ;-) Thanks! -- Stephane http://DECpicted.blogspot.com From ggs at shiresoft.com Tue Feb 2 23:24:57 2010 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Tue, 2 Feb 2010 21:24:57 -0800 Subject: New PDP 11/34 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Feb 2, 2010, at 8:52 PM, St?phane Tsacas wrote: > Hi, > > A PDP11/34 has just arrived... I need some basic help before I'll power it on. > > The description of the current setup can be seen there : > http://www.conservatique.com/pdp/pdp-1134 . > > 1- There is 2 wires cable coming out the front panel, pins TB1/TB2, > which goes to the rear of the box, towards the power supply. From the > schematics Fig 9-5 (p64): > http://docs.google.com/viewer?url=http://www.mirrorservice.org/sites/www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp11/1134/KY11-LB_MaintMan.pdf > this cable should go to a M9301 ? What if I don't have a M9301? > Is there a M9301 Boostrap/Terminator Maintenance Manual available > somewhere by any chance? I think bitsavers has documentation on it. An M9312 is a better bootstrap terminator board and can be used in place of an M9301. Those wires go to the "boot" pins on the bootstrap boards. > > 2- How can I test the power supply? I don't see any voltage control > points, I couldn't find how I can access to the boards under the > transformer. While there are no specific test points, you can pull *all* of the boards and measure the supplies at the distribution points. If you take the bottom off of the BA11 box you'll see it. That will also give you access to the individual power supply "bricks". They have individual adjustment points on the "bricks". The different "bricks" have different numbering to indicate what voltage(s) they supply. > > If anyone has the following boards for sale/trade, please drop me a mail: > - a M9301 ! I probably have some and maybe some extra M9312. > - any memory which can fit (MOS or CORE). I have some 11/70 core > modules for trade I think ;-) Any MUD memory should work (I have some). TTFN - Guy From pmille2 at cox.net Tue Feb 2 12:26:21 2010 From: pmille2 at cox.net (Pete Miller) Date: Tue, 2 Feb 2010 13:26:21 -0500 Subject: Honeywell 316 on govliquidation Message-ID: <37EA32D65C48498CB1F68C19285B55A7@owneraf75c46b7> Got any info on the Honeywell 316 station ? Thanks E-mail message checked by Spyware Doctor (7.0.0.514) Database version: 6.14270 http://www.pctools.com/en/spyware-doctor/ From jonas at otter.se Tue Feb 2 14:54:40 2010 From: jonas at otter.se (Jonas Otter) Date: Tue, 02 Feb 2010 20:54:40 +0000 Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 78, Issue 3 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <81MllFuZ.1265144080.3045340.jotter@howe.textdrive.com> On Mon, 1 Feb 2010 , ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > >That sounds more like the Intel 8251 USART. IIRC on that chip you have to >send the reset command 3 times to ensure it's treated as a command and >not as data to be loadrd into one of the configuration registers. > >-tony > Hmm, I must be getting old. Between about 1983 and about 1990, I wrote a fair amount of software for a communications board which I designed, and which used an 8088, an 8259, an 8253, 8255s, and, for some reason I cannot remember now, I think it used 6850s for the serial ports. We started out with all Motorola peripheral chips but found out that the timer chip wouldn't work properly together with the Intel bus, so we switched to Intel. I do have the distinct impression that we kept the 6850s for some reason, probably price, and, I think, simplicity. We had no need for synchronous communications so that would have been a reason. We had an earlier all-Motorola design (6809-based) we got ideas from (I had never designed any microprocessor circuitry before), and IIRC, I started out sending a single reset command, which didn't work, and then I looked at the other design and saw that their software sent 3 resets, which I then understood the reason for. I may be wrong, as this was 27 years ago, but it would be easy to test. I can't, as I have nothing to test on. And Charlie C, had you asked me 27 years ago I could have told you exactly what to do ;-) Whatever it was I did, it worked well, because we sold a number of those boards, each of which used 4 serial interfaces. It annoys me that I can't be sure whether we kept the ACIAs or changed to Intel. Wh?t I do remember is that the Motorola chips were simple and elegant compared to the Intel chips. /Jonas From ddsnyder at zoominternet.net Tue Feb 2 17:58:04 2010 From: ddsnyder at zoominternet.net (Daniel Snyder) Date: Tue, 2 Feb 2010 18:58:04 -0500 Subject: Free for pickup References: <990883.74434.qm@web55304.mail.re4.yahoo.com><000e01caa29f$29640140$6501a8c0@HP24150918428> <9170DDFC830640998DEADA523455E505@dell8300> Message-ID: <002701caa463$8f4aec10$6501a8c0@HP24150918428> Teo, Only the 30's generated some interest. The PS/2 TV and the Model 80-486 is still available. Dan ----- Original Message ----- From: "Teo Zenios" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, February 02, 2010 1:55 AM Subject: Re: Free for pickup > Get much interest in that lot yet? > > The Model 70 486 is interesting along with the PS/2 TV box. > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Daniel Snyder" > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" > Sent: Sunday, January 31, 2010 12:59 PM > Subject: Free for pickup > > >> Still thinning my vintage stuff.. >> Go to http://picasaweb.google.com/DanielDSnyder for a look, category is: >> Old stuff looking for a new home >> >> Available is: >> >> 1 - Centronics 761 KSR - serial >> 1 - Centronics 779 - parallel >> 1 - Centronics 781 - serial? >> 1 - IBM PS/2 TV - complete >> 2 - IBM PS/2 model 30-286 >> 1 - IBM PS/2 model 25 B&W >> 1 - IBM PS/2 model 50 >> 2 - IBM PS/2 model 70 386 & 486 >> 1 - IBM PS/2 model 80 with Kingston 486 >> 1 - IBM PS/2 B&W monitor >> 2 - IBM PS/2 keyboards >> >> Contact me offine. I really do not want to ship this stuff, but I am >> willing to relay >> the stuff and at this moment there is no time limit, I am not going to >> toss the stuff.. >> >> Note all items have been stored in my home and have been known to work. I >> know for a fact the Centronics printers have been in my home for almost >> 30 years. >> >> I need the space, would like to pass the items to someone else to enjoy.. >> whatever >> the reason may be, I have narrowed my focus to VAX, Alpha and Integrity >> based VMS >> boxes. This is one of the few constants in my career in the last 31 >> years. >> >> Dan Snyder >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Al Hartman" >> To: >> Sent: Saturday, January 30, 2010 9:00 AM >> Subject: Re: Free for pickup >> >> >>> Of the items I posted earlier, the following is still available: >>> >>> Qty 2 - HP Laserjet IIIP Printers >>> >>> Box of Misc Network Adapter cards, ISA mixed 8 and 16 bit. Mostly 16 >>> bit. All are Novell, Windows 3.x, Windows 95 and Lantastic Compatible. >>> >>> I have the following to add: >>> >>> 1 ZIP 100 Drive and Power Supply >>> 1 Ditto Tape Backup Drive (Not sure if it still works due to age of >>> rubber rollers) >>> 1 Apple Imagewriter II >>> >>> Items are located in Keansburg, NJ 07734 >>> >>> Contact me off-list via PM. >>> >>> Thanks! >>> >>> Al Hartman >>> >>> >> > > From mjohnson at simconsultants.com Tue Feb 2 21:07:23 2010 From: mjohnson at simconsultants.com (Marty Johnson) Date: Tue, 2 Feb 2010 22:07:23 -0500 Subject: For Trade: SGI 4D series boards, memory, etc Message-ID: <003101caa47e$0384cd70$0a8e6850$@com> Hi Mark, I know you posted this many years ago but I was wondering if you still have any of the SGI SAMZ audio modules for sale (030-0753-005). Best Regards, Marty Johnson CentraTech Corp From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Feb 3 01:22:07 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 3 Feb 2010 02:22:07 -0500 Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 78, Issue 3 In-Reply-To: <81MllFuZ.1265144080.3045340.jotter@howe.textdrive.com> References: <81MllFuZ.1265144080.3045340.jotter@howe.textdrive.com> Message-ID: On Feb 2, 2010, at 3:54 PM, Jonas Otter wrote: > I may be wrong, as this was 27 years ago, but it would be easy to > test. I > can't, as I have nothing to test on. And Charlie C, had you asked > me 27 > years ago I could have told you exactly what to do ;-) > Whatever it was I did, it worked well, because we sold a number of > those > boards, each of which used 4 serial interfaces. It annoys me that I > can't be sure whether we kept the ACIAs or changed to Intel. > > Wh?t I do remember is that the Motorola chips were simple and elegant > compared to the Intel chips. This holds true for most of their chips. ;) -Dave > -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From teoz at neo.rr.com Wed Feb 3 01:34:58 2010 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Wed, 3 Feb 2010 02:34:58 -0500 Subject: Free for pickup References: <990883.74434.qm@web55304.mail.re4.yahoo.com><000e01caa29f$29640140$6501a8c0@HP24150918428><9170DDFC830640998DEADA523455E505@dell8300> <002701caa463$8f4aec10$6501a8c0@HP24150918428> Message-ID: <93BCF40F2FBD4A999C1632B28574E71C@dell8300> Any interesting cards in the model 80? Looks like it has a nice cdrom and bezel installed. When do you need the stuff gone by anyway? I was hoping to snag them at the Wallmart we meet at when the weather is decent if that is ok? Of the list the Model 80, Model 70 (486), and the PS/2 TV would be cool. From mtapley at swri.edu Wed Feb 3 10:44:13 2010 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Wed, 3 Feb 2010 10:44:13 -0600 Subject: Selling Calcomp 565 plotter In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 22:10 -0600 2/2/10, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >I'm going to go ahead and finish this thread: anyone who doesn't use a Mac >is Hitler and Windows users are Nazis, etc. ROFLMAO! This may become a .sig on my email program, for classic-cmp replies at least. Well done, Sir! -- - Mark 210-379-4635 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Large Asteroids headed toward planets inhabited by beings that don't have technology adequate to stop them: Think of it as Evolution in Fast-Forward. From cclist at sydex.com Wed Feb 3 11:50:15 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 03 Feb 2010 09:50:15 -0800 Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 78, Issue 3 In-Reply-To: <81MllFuZ.1265144080.3045340.jotter@howe.textdrive.com> References: , <81MllFuZ.1265144080.3045340.jotter@howe.textdrive.com> Message-ID: <4B6946D7.10966.3DA937@cclist.sydex.com> On 2 Feb 2010 at 20:54, Jonas Otter wrote: > Between about 1983 and about 1990, I wrote a fair amount of software > for a communications board which I designed, and which used an 8088, > an 8259, an 8253, 8255s, and, for some reason I cannot remember now, I > think it used 6850s for the serial ports. We started out with all > Motorola peripheral chips but found out that the timer chip wouldn't > work properly together with the Intel bus, so we switched to Intel. I > do have the distinct impression that we kept the 6850s for some > reason, probably price, and, I think, simplicity. We had no need for > synchronous communications so that would have been a reason. One of the more common chips used for async (as well as sync) back then was the Signetics 2651 (and 2661). A 28 pin package, simple to interface, with a built-in baud rate generator. The successful orphan of the 2650 CPU family. Another popular chip used was the Intel 8274 dual-channel chip, basically a clone of the Z80 SIO chip. There were many other comm chips by the major makers, but these two packed a lot of bang-for-the-buck. Cheers, Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Feb 3 12:01:01 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 3 Feb 2010 13:01:01 -0500 Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 78, Issue 3 In-Reply-To: <4B6946D7.10966.3DA937@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <81MllFuZ.1265144080.3045340.jotter@howe.textdrive.com> <4B6946D7.10966.3DA937@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <143ECF1C-D298-4D66-B368-801C23A57016@neurotica.com> On Feb 3, 2010, at 12:50 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> Between about 1983 and about 1990, I wrote a fair amount of software >> for a communications board which I designed, and which used an 8088, >> an 8259, an 8253, 8255s, and, for some reason I cannot remember >> now, I >> think it used 6850s for the serial ports. We started out with all >> Motorola peripheral chips but found out that the timer chip wouldn't >> work properly together with the Intel bus, so we switched to Intel. I >> do have the distinct impression that we kept the 6850s for some >> reason, probably price, and, I think, simplicity. We had no need for >> synchronous communications so that would have been a reason. > > One of the more common chips used for async (as well as sync) back > then was the Signetics 2651 (and 2661). A 28 pin package, simple to > interface, with a built-in baud rate generator. The successful > orphan of the 2650 CPU family. > > Another popular chip used was the Intel 8274 dual-channel chip, > basically a clone of the Z80 SIO chip. > > There were many other comm chips by the major makers, but these two > packed a lot of bang-for-the-buck. Z8530. 'Nuff said. Well, not quite 'nuff...it's an AMAZINGLY nice chip! I've done quite a bit with it (both in my designs and in existing systems) and have always been impressed with its capabilities. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From alhartman at yahoo.com Wed Feb 3 12:20:39 2010 From: alhartman at yahoo.com (Al Hartman) Date: Wed, 3 Feb 2010 10:20:39 -0800 (PST) Subject: Looking for TRS-80 Model I Keyboard unit... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <973924.13504.qm@web55301.mail.re4.yahoo.com> During my recent move, my Model I took a tumble and has a broken case and keyboard. I'm not even going to try to power it on until we can look it over carefully. I'm looking for a donor unit that can contribute a bottom case and keyboard with keypad. The logic board does not have to be working, and no power supply is needed. If someone has such a unit, or can point me to someone I can buy a new keyboard from, I'd be most appreciative. Al Hartman Keansburg, NJ From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Feb 3 12:29:25 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 3 Feb 2010 13:29:25 -0500 Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 78, Issue 3 In-Reply-To: <143ECF1C-D298-4D66-B368-801C23A57016@neurotica.com> References: <81MllFuZ.1265144080.3045340.jotter@howe.textdrive.com> <4B6946D7.10966.3DA937@cclist.sydex.com> <143ECF1C-D298-4D66-B368-801C23A57016@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On 2/3/10, Dave McGuire wrote: > Z8530. 'Nuff said. > > Well, not quite 'nuff...it's an AMAZINGLY nice chip! I've done > quite a bit with it (both in my designs and in existing systems) and > have always been impressed with its capabilities. We used the Z8530 on our later COMBOARD designs for bisync and SNA comms. I did quite a bit of low-level programming in M68K assembler for it. Except for the fact that we had an early system design (1985) with a 4MHz chip on an 8MHz platform and needed to be careful about how fast we hammered the registers, it was really fun to program. One way we leveraged it in our embedded design was to keep the primary SIO channel in sync mode and the secondary in async mode so we could use the secondary channel for debugging/tracing. If I needed more than a INS6402/RCA1854 or a 6850 could do in a new hobby design, I'd happily reach for a Z8530. -ethan From billdeg at degnanco.com Wed Feb 3 13:09:09 2010 From: billdeg at degnanco.com (B Degnan) Date: Wed, 03 Feb 2010 14:09:09 -0500 Subject: Poly8813 on ebay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B69C9D5.2050007@degnanco.com> > > >> > From: dwight elvey >> > >> > Hi >> > I thought I'd mention that there is a Poly 8813 ( actually a 8812 ) >> > on ebay. >> > > > I tend to think his asking price ($8000) is WAY too high in spite of the > condition since it doesn't include any docs or disks. But if anyone > decides to buy it, I can supply a copy of the manuals and other board > documentation if they aren't already online. > > The 8812 is not the original and much rarer Polymorphic Micro-Altair, later called Poly-88. Those came out in 1976 and might fetch $8000. The 8813 series were advertised into early 1979 and are worth more like $400-600 at best, in unknown condition. Bill From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Wed Feb 3 13:07:58 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Wed, 3 Feb 2010 17:07:58 -0200 Subject: Free for pickup References: <990883.74434.qm@web55304.mail.re4.yahoo.com> <000e01caa29f$29640140$6501a8c0@HP24150918428><9170DDFC830640998DEADA523455E505@dell8300><4B68F36E.3010203@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <0fec01caa504$a05074c0$0132a8c0@Alexandre> >> What *was* the PS/2 TV box? I thought he was being tongue-in-cheek >> describing a particular type of monitor. > http://ohlandl.ipv7.net/video/PS2_TV.html Photos?! Wasn't able to google it :( From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Feb 3 13:49:01 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 3 Feb 2010 19:49:01 +0000 (GMT) Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 78, Issue 3 In-Reply-To: <81MllFuZ.1265144080.3045340.jotter@howe.textdrive.com> from "Jonas Otter" at Feb 2, 10 08:54:40 pm Message-ID: > Wh=E1t I do remember is that the Motorola chips were simple and elegant > compared to the Intel chips. That is almost always the case :-). In fact just about every Intel chip I've ever used has had a major dsesign misfeature. Heck, they're the only company that managed to screw up the design of a parallel interface chip. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Feb 3 13:56:55 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 3 Feb 2010 19:56:55 +0000 (GMT) Subject: New PDP 11/34 In-Reply-To: from "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?St=E9phane_Tsacas?=" at Feb 3, 10 05:52:09 am Message-ID: > A PDP11/34 has just arrived... I need some basic help before I'll power it = > on. > > The description of the current setup can be seen there : > http://www.conservatique.com/pdp/pdp-1134=A0. > > 1- There is 2 wires cable coming out the front panel, pins TB1/TB2, > which goes to the rear of the box, towards the power supply. From the > schematics Fig 9-5 (p64): > http://docs.google.com/viewer?url=3Dhttp://www.mirrorservice.org/sites/www.= > bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp11/1134/KY11-LB_MaintMan.pdf > this cable should go to a M9301 ? What if I don't have a M9301? > Is there a M9301 Boostrap/Terminator Maintenance Manual available > somewhere by any chance? IIRC, that cable is associated with the BOOT button on the panel, and is used to get the M9301 to start a ROM bootstrap. If you don't have a bootstrap ROM board, and are going to be entering the bootstrap programs on the keypad, you can leave this cable disconnected. But I recomend findign an M9301 or M9312. > 2- How can I test the power supply? I don't see any voltage control > points, I couldn't find how I can=A0access=A0to the boards under the > transformer. Take the bottom off the PCU box (slacken one screw each side and slide it to disenage the fixing slots). You will then see the wire-wrap side of the backplanes. You can unplug the power input conenctors (6 pin and 15 pin AMP plugs from the power distrbution PCB (this will disconenct the logic from the PSU) and check the voltages at the sockets on the power distributuion PCB. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Feb 3 14:09:04 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 3 Feb 2010 20:09:04 +0000 (GMT) Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 78, Issue 3 In-Reply-To: <4B6946D7.10966.3DA937@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Feb 3, 10 09:50:15 am Message-ID: > One of the more common chips used for async (as well as sync) back > then was the Signetics 2651 (and 2661). A 28 pin package, simple to > interface, with a built-in baud rate generator. The successful > orphan of the 2650 CPU family. On the 6800/6809/6502 bus, I much prefered the 6551 to the 6850. The former included a baud rate generator, and just needed an external crystal. I seem to rememebr a Rockwell dual serial chip for this bus, but I can't remmebr the number off the top of my head. AndI mentiond the 6852 and 6854 in an earlier message. > Another popular chip used was the Intel 8274 dual-channel chip, > basically a clone of the Z80 SIO chip. I didn't think they were that similar... IIRC the 8274 is very similar to the NEC7201. > There were many other comm chips by the major makers, but these two > packed a lot of bang-for-the-buck. There was obvisouly the 8250 (Intel) used in the original IBM PC Async card, and its improved versiuons (16450, 16550, etc). For some inexplicable (to me) reason, HP used the 8250 on the simple RS232 cards for their HP9000/200 machines (which were 68000 based). The more complcated serial card used a Z80-SIO with a Z80 CPU controlling it. There were the well-known 40 pin dumb UARTs (6402, AY-5-1013, etc). They had the advantage that they could easily be used without a procesor, althogh interfaceing them to a microcomputer bus was very easy if you wanted to do that. There was a pair of chips from Western Digital, the PR1472 (receiver) and PT1482 (transmitter). They were a bit like the dumb UART in that you could easily configure them without a processor (but again you could easily link them to a processor if you wanted to), but they did both sync and async modes. HP used them in the fancy serial interface for the 9830 (HP11284 IIRC), and in the HP59403 HPIB common carrier (modem) interface. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Feb 3 14:11:43 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 3 Feb 2010 20:11:43 +0000 (GMT) Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 78, Issue 3 In-Reply-To: <143ECF1C-D298-4D66-B368-801C23A57016@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Feb 3, 10 01:01:01 pm Message-ID: > Z8530. 'Nuff said. > > Well, not quite 'nuff...it's an AMAZINGLY nice chip! I've done > quite a bit with it (both in my designs and in existing systems) and > have always been impressed with its capabilities. It has one gotcha that I remember. As ever, they ran out of pins on the package, and didn't have room for a reset pin. Instead you do a hardware reset by asserting rd/ and wr/ at the same time. This is only a problem if you're trying to produce rd/ and wr/ from a R/W line and you don't realise a momentaruy overlap (and the 'glitch' from one LS TTL gate is enough) will reset the Z8530, or worse still partially reset it. Please don't ask how I foudn that out... -tony From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Feb 3 14:19:35 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 3 Feb 2010 15:19:35 -0500 Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 78, Issue 3 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9017D573-6462-4BE8-A7BD-80F48E6C3091@neurotica.com> On Feb 3, 2010, at 2:49 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> Wh=E1t I do remember is that the Motorola chips were simple and >> elegant >> compared to the Intel chips. > > That is almost always the case :-). In fact just about every Intel > chip > I've ever used has had a major dsesign misfeature. Heck, they're > the only > company that managed to screw up the design of a parallel interface > chip. The 8255 with its stupid reset-all-pin-states-on-mode-change business? -Dave > -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cclist at sydex.com Wed Feb 3 14:32:16 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 03 Feb 2010 12:32:16 -0800 Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 78, Issue 3 In-Reply-To: <143ECF1C-D298-4D66-B368-801C23A57016@neurotica.com> References: , <4B6946D7.10966.3DA937@cclist.sydex.com>, <143ECF1C-D298-4D66-B368-801C23A57016@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4B696CD0.16046.D1FD53@cclist.sydex.com> On 3 Feb 2010 at 13:01, Dave McGuire wrote: > Z8530. 'Nuff said. > > Well, not quite 'nuff...it's an AMAZINGLY nice chip! I've done > quite a bit with it (both in my designs and in existing systems) and > have always been impressed with its capabilities. It's not bad, but if you don't need the sync capabilities, Exar also has some pretty amazing offerings, all based on the 16550 UART. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Wed Feb 3 14:52:48 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 03 Feb 2010 12:52:48 -0800 Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 78, Issue 3 In-Reply-To: References: <4B6946D7.10966.3DA937@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Feb 3, 10 09:50:15 am, Message-ID: <4B6971A0.26732.E4C994@cclist.sydex.com> On 3 Feb 2010 at 20:09, Tony Duell wrote: > > Another popular chip used was the Intel 8274 dual-channel chip, > > basically a clone of the Z80 SIO chip. > > I didn't think they were that similar... IIRC the 8274 is very similar > to the NEC7201. The uPD7201 *is* an 8474, just with NECs own part number. This scheme obtained with most x80 and x86 support chipsets. Why NEC used its own numbering is an unknown. Compare the programming information for the Z80 SIO (Z8441) and the 8474. The register definitions line up virtually bit for bit. I received a job to do some 8474 programming and noticed right away that I could just about work from the Z80 SIO datasheet which I had from a previous job. I believe the same person designed both chips. In that respect, the Z8530 bears a certain family resemblance. > There was obvisouly the 8250 (Intel) used in the original IBM PC Async > card, and its improved versiuons (16450, 16550, etc). For some > inexplicable (to me) reason, HP used the 8250 on the simple RS232 cards > for their HP9000/200 machines (which were 68000 based). The > more complcated serial card used a Z80-SIO with a Z80 CPU. ISTR that the 8250 was originally a National part, not an Intel part. Televideo used the 8474 on its early RS-422 network system (InfoShare, which I believe was done by Novell or whatever its predecessor was named). The brain-dead (async only) Z80 SIO is the Z80 DART. I don't think there's a corresponding Intel part related to the 8474 with disabled synchronous capabilities. --Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Feb 3 15:34:11 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 3 Feb 2010 16:34:11 -0500 Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 78, Issue 3 In-Reply-To: <4B6971A0.26732.E4C994@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4B6946D7.10966.3DA937@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Feb 3, 10 09:50:15 am, <4B6971A0.26732.E4C994@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <95C08CA9-B446-4A41-B289-B40D239585B5@neurotica.com> On Feb 3, 2010, at 3:52 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > The brain-dead (async only) Z80 SIO is the Z80 DART. I don't think > there's a corresponding Intel part related to the 8474 with disabled > synchronous capabilities. I wouldn't exactly call the Z80 DART brain-dead...it's still a pretty fancy chip, even without the sync hardware. Perhaps "lobotomized". ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cclist at sydex.com Wed Feb 3 15:43:55 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 03 Feb 2010 13:43:55 -0800 Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 78, Issue 3 In-Reply-To: <95C08CA9-B446-4A41-B289-B40D239585B5@neurotica.com> References: <4B6946D7.10966.3DA937@cclist.sydex.com>, <4B6971A0.26732.E4C994@cclist.sydex.com>, <95C08CA9-B446-4A41-B289-B40D239585B5@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4B697D9B.10575.1139948@cclist.sydex.com> On 3 Feb 2010 at 16:34, Dave McGuire wrote: > I wouldn't exactly call the Z80 DART brain-dead...it's still a > pretty fancy chip, even without the sync hardware. > > Perhaps "lobotomized". ;) "Cost reduced?" What happens if one tries to put a DART into synchronous mode? Always wondered, never got the opportunity to try. --Chuck From technobug at comcast.net Wed Feb 3 15:53:11 2010 From: technobug at comcast.net (CRC) Date: Wed, 3 Feb 2010 14:53:11 -0700 Subject: Data I/O System 20B MOS Memory Programmer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3BC364AE-9887-40E6-8472-E1B0EFBAD73F@comcast.net> I just was given the above named beast and a search of the usual places produces nil. Anyone have any info or manuals on this item? CRC From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Wed Feb 3 18:35:54 2010 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Thu, 04 Feb 2010 00:35:54 -0000 Subject: 6809 SBC (was Editor religious wars (was Re: Museums)) In-Reply-To: <201002010943.32903.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <20100201075754.GB10566@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> <32CE1032-0213-4D18-B500-F9C7ED232139@neurotica.com> <201002010943.32903.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <4B4137FD.70706@compsys.to> >Patrick Finnegan wrote: >On Monday 01 February 2010, Dave McGuire wrote: > > >>On Feb 1, 2010, at 2:57 AM, Alexander Schreiber wrote: >> >> >>>>As for total memory available to use for temporary >>>>work space, when I run Ersatz-11 under WXP on a >>>>system with 4 GB of physical memory (I agree that >>>>WXP wastes almost 1 GB of that memory), >>>> >>>> >>>Not the fault of Windows. For a 32 bit PC system with 4 GB of >>>RAM, up to 1 GB of RAM is 'lost' because up to 1 GB of >>>the address space is used for the PCI address space (i.e. >>>memory mapped access to peripherals[0]). It can be quite bit >>>less (such as 500 MB), or up to the full 1 GB - that depends >>>on the specific hardware. >>> >>> >> The MMU can easily get around this. And indeed, I don't have this >>problem with any other OS. Does Windows not understand PAE hardware? >> >> > >Not all PC chipsets support the address lines to do this. My friend's >Core2 Duo box (yes, a 64-bit machine) doesn't support more than 3.25GB >of RAM because of this. > I am confused over how the hardware responds to a physical address for hardware as opposed to actual memory at the same physical address? The mother board being used (ASUS P5B) actually allows 8 GB of memory in total, so PAE hardware must be present to allow 64 bit Windows to reference the extra 4 GB of memory. My less than complete understanding of how an MMU operates is limited to the PDP-11 where the top 8 KB of memory is lost to the IOPAGE registers. As far as I can understand, all PAR7 address references are redirected to the IOPAGE registers which results in the top 8 KB of memory not being able to be used. This redirection takes place BOTH with and WITHOUT an MM being present. When there is 4 MB of memory available to the system, the loss of 8 KB was not considered a major problem and we all considered ourselves fortunate if we actually had 4 MB of physical memory in the backplane. I get the impression that a PC does something very different with physical memory addresses (out of a 2 * 2 GB sticks for example) vs something like the video controller which has its own memory. However, I still get the impression that a 32 bit Windows XP could set up the necessary pointers to allow the operating system to use the unused 1 GB of physical memory for some rather useful functions such as cache for the hard disk drives. Is my impression correct? And what about Windows 7 running a 64 bit? I realize that this seems to be a discussion about Windows, but the only goal is to be able to run a 32 bit application, specifically Ersatz-11, with reasonable, or at least as close to reasonable as possible, efficiency. If a 64 bit Windows can still run a 32 bit application, are there any penalties imposed as a result. I realize that the maximum memory that could be assigned to a single 32 bit process will almost certainly be 4 GB, but that is substantially more than the maximum of 2 GB under a 32 bit version of Windows XP which is running at the moment. Please pardon my almost total lack of understanding of the Windows environment, however I shudder at having to learn all of that stuff just to be able to run Ersatz-11. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine From dkelvey at hotmail.com Wed Feb 3 18:42:22 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Wed, 3 Feb 2010 16:42:22 -0800 Subject: Poly8813 on ebay In-Reply-To: <4B69C9D5.2050007@degnanco.com> References: , <4B69C9D5.2050007@degnanco.com> Message-ID: > Date: Wed, 3 Feb 2010 14:09:09 -0500 > From: billdeg at degnanco.com > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Poly8813 on ebay > > > > > > > >> > From: dwight elvey > >> > > >> > Hi > >> > I thought I'd mention that there is a Poly 8813 ( actually a 8812 ) > >> > on ebay. > >> > > > > > > I tend to think his asking price ($8000) is WAY too high in spite of the > > condition since it doesn't include any docs or disks. But if anyone > > decides to buy it, I can supply a copy of the manuals and other board > > documentation if they aren't already online. > > > > > The 8812 is not the original and much rarer Polymorphic Micro-Altair, > later called Poly-88. Those came out in 1976 and might fetch $8000. > The 8813 series were advertised into early 1979 and are worth more like > $400-600 at best, in unknown condition. > > Bill Hi I have it from several sources that the Micro-Altair was never anything more than an empty case for an advertising picture. I still wait to see one anywhere. Altair shut them down before any of these were ever shipped. At least, that is what I've heard from several sources. When that advertisement was released, they hadn't even created a single production unit. All were still prototype levels. They were waiting to see what volume they needed before ordering boards. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail: Free, trusted and rich email service. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/201469228/direct/01/ From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Wed Feb 3 18:49:05 2010 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Wed, 03 Feb 2010 19:49:05 -0500 Subject: 6809 SBC (was Editor religious wars (was Re: Museums)) In-Reply-To: <201002010943.32903.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <20100201075754.GB10566@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> <32CE1032-0213-4D18-B500-F9C7ED232139@neurotica.com> <201002010943.32903.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <4B6A1981.6050309@compsys.to> >Patrick Finnegan wrote: >On Monday 01 February 2010, Dave McGuire wrote: > > >>On Feb 1, 2010, at 2:57 AM, Alexander Schreiber wrote: >> >> >>>>As for total memory available to use for temporary >>>>work space, when I run Ersatz-11 under WXP on a >>>>system with 4 GB of physical memory (I agree that >>>>WXP wastes almost 1 GB of that memory), >>>> >>>> >>>Not the fault of Windows. For a 32 bit PC system with 4 GB of >>>RAM, up to 1 GB of RAM is 'lost' because up to 1 GB of >>>the address space is used for the PCI address space (i.e. >>>memory mapped access to peripherals[0]). It can be quite bit >>>less (such as 500 MB), or up to the full 1 GB - that depends >>>on the specific hardware. >>> >>> >> The MMU can easily get around this. And indeed, I don't have this >>problem with any other OS. Does Windows not understand PAE hardware? >> >> > >Not all PC chipsets support the address lines to do this. My friend's >Core2 Duo box (yes, a 64-bit machine) doesn't support more than 3.25GB >of RAM because of this. > I am confused over how the hardware responds to a physical address for hardware as opposed to actual memory at the same physical address? The mother board being used (ASUS P5B) actually allows 8 GB of memory in total, so PAE hardware must be present to allow 64 bit Windows to reference the extra 4 GB of memory. My less than complete understanding of how an MMU operates is limited to the PDP-11 where the top 8 KB of memory is lost to the IOPAGE registers. As far as I can understand, all PAR7 address references are redirected to the IOPAGE registers which results in the top 8 KB of memory not being able to be used. This redirection takes place BOTH with and WITHOUT an MM being present. When there is 4 MB of memory available to the system, the loss of 8 KB was not considered a major problem and we all considered ourselves fortunate if we actually had 4 MB of physical memory in the backplane. I get the impression that a PC does something very different with physical memory addresses (out of a 2 * 2 GB sticks for example) vs something like the video controller which has its own memory. However, I still get the impression that a 32 bit Windows XP could set up the necessary pointers to allow the operating system to use the unused 1 GB of physical memory for some rather useful functions such as cache for the hard disk drives. Is my impression correct? And what about Windows 7 running a 64 bit? I realize that this seems to be a discussion about Windows, but the only goal is to be able to run a 32 bit application, specifically Ersatz-11, with reasonable, or at least as close to reasonable as possible, efficiency. If a 64 bit Windows can still run a 32 bit application, are there any penalties imposed as a result. I realize that the maximum memory that could be assigned to a single 32 bit process will almost certainly be 4 GB, but that is substantially more than the maximum of 2 GB under a 32 bit version of Windows XP which is running at the moment. Please pardon my almost total lack of understanding of the Windows environment, however I shudder at having to learn all of that stuff just to be able to run Ersatz-11. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Wed Feb 3 19:02:48 2010 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Wed, 3 Feb 2010 17:02:48 -0800 Subject: Ot: 64-bit Windows (was Re: 6809 SBC (was Editor religious wars (was Re: Museums))) In-Reply-To: <4B4137FD.70706@compsys.to> References: <20100201075754.GB10566@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> <32CE1032-0213-4D18-B500-F9C7ED232139@neurotica.com> <201002010943.32903.pat@computer-refuge.org> <4B4137FD.70706@compsys.to> Message-ID: On Jan 3, 2010, at 4:36 PM, "Jerome H. Fine" wrote: > >Patrick Finnegan wrote: > >> On Monday 01 February 2010, Dave McGuire wrote: >> >>> On Feb 1, 2010, at 2:57 AM, Alexander Schreiber wrote: >>> >>>>> As for total memory available to use for temporary >>>>> work space, when I run Ersatz-11 under WXP on a >>>>> system with 4 GB of physical memory (I agree that >>>>> WXP wastes almost 1 GB of that memory), >>>>> >>>> Not the fault of Windows. For a 32 bit PC system with 4 GB of >>>> RAM, up to 1 GB of RAM is 'lost' because up to 1 GB of >>>> the address space is used for the PCI address space (i.e. >>>> memory mapped access to peripherals[0]). It can be quite bit >>>> less (such as 500 MB), or up to the full 1 GB - that depends >>>> on the specific hardware. >>>> >>> The MMU can easily get around this. And indeed, I don't have this >>> problem with any other OS. Does Windows not understand PAE >>> hardware? >>> >> >> Not all PC chipsets support the address lines to do this. My >> friend's Core2 Duo box (yes, a 64-bit machine) doesn't support more >> than 3.25GB of RAM because of this. >> > I am confused over how the hardware responds to a physical > address for hardware as opposed to actual memory at the same > physical address? The mother board being used (ASUS P5B) > actually allows 8 GB of memory in total, so PAE hardware must > be present to allow 64 bit Windows to reference the extra 4 GB > of memory. > > My less than complete understanding of how an MMU operates > is limited to the PDP-11 where the top 8 KB of memory is lost > to the IOPAGE registers. As far as I can understand, all PAR7 > address references are redirected to the IOPAGE registers which > results in the top 8 KB of memory not being able to be used. This > redirection takes place BOTH with and WITHOUT an MM being > present. When there is 4 MB of memory available to the system, > the loss of 8 KB was not considered a major problem and we all > considered ourselves fortunate if we actually had 4 MB of physical > memory in the backplane. > > I get the impression that a PC does something very different with > physical memory addresses (out of a 2 * 2 GB sticks for example) > vs something like the video controller which has its own memory. > However, I still get the impression that a 32 bit Windows XP could > set up the necessary pointers to allow the operating system to use > the unused 1 GB of physical memory for some rather useful functions > such as cache for the hard disk drives. Is my impression correct? > > And what about Windows 7 running a 64 bit? I realize that this seems > to be a discussion about Windows, but the only goal is to be able to > run a 32 bit application, specifically Ersatz-11, with reasonable, > or at least as close to reasonable as possible, efficiency. If a 64 > bit > Windows can still run a 32 bit application, are there any penalties > imposed as a result. I realize that the maximum memory that could > be assigned to a single 32 bit process will almost certainly be 4 GB, > but that is substantially more than the maximum of 2 GB under a 32 bit > version of Windows XP which is running at the moment. I can't answer all the questions here, but I'll give it a go (pardon the terseness, I'm on my phone...) 32-bit processes under 64-bit Windows (7 or otherwise) can directly address at most 4gb of memory (the same is true of 64-bit Linux on x86). There are ways for 32-bit processes (via "address windowing extensions") to access more memory outside the 4gb range but as was mentioned earlier it's a lot like EMS under DOS. PAE is for 32-bit OSes only; it's a bit of a hardware hack to allow the OS to manage memory beyond 4gb. Individual processes are still limited to a 4gb address space (barring the AWE mentioned above). And again, whether your 32-bit (or even 64-bit machine in some cases) can actually see memory above 4gb depends a lot on the hardware/ chipsets involved. Which is quite lame. I personally would recommend a 64-bit OS for anything over 3.5gb of RAM. Also: the 2gb per-process limit on XP can be raised to 3gb by using the /3GB boot option in your boot.ini. Hope that clears some things up... Josh > > Please pardon my almost total lack of understanding of the Windows > environment, however I shudder at having to learn all of that stuff > just to be able to run Ersatz-11. > > Sincerely yours, > > Jerome Fine > From glen.slick at gmail.com Wed Feb 3 20:01:31 2010 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Wed, 3 Feb 2010 18:01:31 -0800 Subject: Ot: 64-bit Windows (was Re: 6809 SBC (was Editor religious wars (was Re: Museums))) In-Reply-To: References: <20100201075754.GB10566@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> <32CE1032-0213-4D18-B500-F9C7ED232139@neurotica.com> <201002010943.32903.pat@computer-refuge.org> <4B4137FD.70706@compsys.to> Message-ID: <1e1fc3e91002031801j28a2ede2k86663d08424be6fc@mail.gmail.com> Also, if anyone is interested in the details of how the hardware works, just read the chipset docs. Intel chipset docs are easily available on their website. (The same is not true of some of the other chipset vendors). Intel? 4 Series Chipset Family http://www.intel.com/Assets/PDF/datasheet/319970.pdf Page 56, Figure 4. System Address Ranges This figure shows that some of the host system address space below 4GB is allocated to devices. Some DRAM in that address region is remapped to host system address space above 4GB. That corresponds to the "OS Invisible Reclaim" DRAM mapped to the "Main Memory Reclaim Address Range" in that figure. If the OS does not make use of host system address space memory located above 4GB the DRAM corresponding to the "OS Invisible Reclaim" region in that figure is effectively lost. That would account for the lost 0.5GB or whatever on a 4GB DRAM system. -Glen From invite+o9t=o2s9 at facebookmail.com Wed Feb 3 22:54:11 2010 From: invite+o9t=o2s9 at facebookmail.com (Kirn Gill) Date: Wed, 3 Feb 2010 20:54:11 -0800 Subject: Check out my photos on Facebook Message-ID: <4d375d7c1276399bf10a0d39833b993e@www.facebook.com> Hi General, I set up a Facebook profile where I can post my pictures, videos and events and I want to add you as a friend so you can see it. First, you need to join Facebook! Once you join, you can also create your own profile. Thanks, Kirn To sign up for Facebook, follow the link below: http://www.facebook.com/p.php?i=1311167334&k=Z3D4XXPXVZTAYDEHUGYX2USUVWFJ4YY&r Already have an account? Add this email address to your account http://www.facebook.com/n/?merge_accounts.php&e=cctalk at classiccmp.org&c=d0f9a7ae1532f1dd68a5f13e3639f925.cctalk at classiccmp.org was invited to join Facebook by Kirn Gill. If you do not wish to receive this type of email from Facebook in the future, please click on the link below to unsubscribe. http://www.facebook.com/o.php?k=0fd83c&u=666184564&mid=1d45020G27b52b74G0G8 Facebook's offices are located at 1601 S. California Ave., Palo Alto, CA 94304. From rollerton at gmail.com Thu Feb 4 00:15:44 2010 From: rollerton at gmail.com (Robert Ollerton) Date: Thu, 4 Feb 2010 00:15:44 -0600 Subject: Looking for StorageTek 2500 series 9T tape drive parts. Message-ID: <2789adda1002032215p308960fk49647cf7885e2f86@mail.gmail.com> I have 4 Storage Tek 2500 series drives on my Sigma 9 that we are working on and hope to get two of them into service. I need to find replacement belts that drive the two air pumps. They are narrow modern looking things maybe 1/4" wide and shaped like a space age vbelt, I don't have the parts books with me, but my question is more a general one; Any one know of a source for spare parts for old Storagetek drives? Thanks. Oh, and any of you Sigma folks out there, contact me off the list if you like. Bob. From cclist at sydex.com Thu Feb 4 00:37:03 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 03 Feb 2010 22:37:03 -0800 Subject: Looking for StorageTek 2500 series 9T tape drive parts. In-Reply-To: <2789adda1002032215p308960fk49647cf7885e2f86@mail.gmail.com> References: <2789adda1002032215p308960fk49647cf7885e2f86@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B69FA8F.5683.2FBB278@cclist.sydex.com> On 4 Feb 2010 at 0:15, Robert Ollerton wrote: > I have 4 Storage Tek 2500 series drives on my Sigma 9 that we are > working on and hope to get two of them into service. > > I need to find replacement belts that drive the two air pumps. They > are narrow modern looking things maybe 1/4" wide and shaped like a > space age vbelt, I don't have the parts books with me, but my > question is more a general one; > > Any one know of a source for spare parts for old Storagetek drives? No, but you might give the guys over at Russel Industries/PRB line a call. They (used to) carry replacement belts for just about anything imaginable. http://www.russellind.com/client/download/prb_line.pdf --Chuck From pinball at telus.net Wed Feb 3 18:00:09 2010 From: pinball at telus.net (John Robertson) Date: Wed, 03 Feb 2010 16:00:09 -0800 Subject: Data I/O System 20B MOS Memory Programmer In-Reply-To: <3BC364AE-9887-40E6-8472-E1B0EFBAD73F@comcast.net> References: <3BC364AE-9887-40E6-8472-E1B0EFBAD73F@comcast.net> Message-ID: <4B6A0E09.9020904@telus.net> CRC wrote: > I just was given the above named beast and a search of the usual > places produces nil. Anyone have any info or manuals on this item? > > CRC > There is a discussion group for Data I/O equipment. Worth joining or visiting to find answers to these and other questions: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/Data_IO_EPROM/ John :-#)# From ddsnyder at zoominternet.net Wed Feb 3 19:13:33 2010 From: ddsnyder at zoominternet.net (Daniel Snyder) Date: Wed, 3 Feb 2010 20:13:33 -0500 Subject: Poly8813 on ebay References: <4B686BC2.4040707@verizon.net>, Message-ID: <001e01caa537$453a3f70$6501a8c0@HP24150918428> What a surprise, a Poly collector... I have a 8813 with the 88/DS drives with all the sales literature I got from a local dealer. I've had this machine since 1981. Do't really here much discussons about it or hear much from Ralph Kenyon these days about the Poly Letter news letter he publish once upon a time.. Dan ----- Original Message ----- From: "dwight elvey" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, February 02, 2010 8:17 PM Subject: Poly8813 on ebay Hi I thought I'd mention that there is a Poly 8813 ( actually a 8812 ) on ebay. One of the pictures shows me with a working machine but the machine on ebay is not my machine ( although it might be thought as being mine ). It is one of the two machine that mine was one of that is mentioned on one of the web pages and serial numbers. The working state of the one on the web is unknown to me. I would be willing to help, anyone that buys the machine, to bring it to life. I can provide a boot disk, disk images and even help diagnose problems. I think his asking price is a little high but he seems to be open to offers as well. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail: Trusted email with Microsoft?s powerful SPAM protection. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/201469226/direct/01/ From ddsnyder at zoominternet.net Wed Feb 3 19:14:50 2010 From: ddsnyder at zoominternet.net (Daniel Snyder) Date: Wed, 3 Feb 2010 20:14:50 -0500 Subject: Free for pickup References: <990883.74434.qm@web55304.mail.re4.yahoo.com> <000e01caa29f$29640140$6501a8c0@HP24150918428><9170DDFC830640998DEADA523455E505@dell8300> <4B68F36E.3010203@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <002201caa537$73435fa0$6501a8c0@HP24150918428> The gizmo sits in series with the video monitor cable and keyboard/mouse and allows you to watch TV on your PS/2 under DOS or Win31 Dan ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Leonard" To: ; "Discussion at mail.mobygames.com :On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, February 02, 2010 10:54 PM Subject: Re: Free for pickup > On 2/2/2010 12:55 AM, Teo Zenios wrote: >> Get much interest in that lot yet? >> >> The Model 70 486 is interesting along with the PS/2 TV box. > > What *was* the PS/2 TV box? I thought he was being tongue-in-cheek > describing a particular type of monitor. > -- > Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ > Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ > Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ > A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ > From ddsnyder at zoominternet.net Wed Feb 3 19:19:43 2010 From: ddsnyder at zoominternet.net (Daniel Snyder) Date: Wed, 3 Feb 2010 20:19:43 -0500 Subject: Free for pickup References: <990883.74434.qm@web55304.mail.re4.yahoo.com><000e01caa29f$29640140$6501a8c0@HP24150918428><9170DDFC830640998DEADA523455E505@dell8300><002701caa463$8f4aec10$6501a8c0@HP24150918428> <93BCF40F2FBD4A999C1632B28574E71C@dell8300> Message-ID: <003401caa538$218a8c00$6501a8c0@HP24150918428> Teo, They are yours.. just post a note to the fellow citizens of Classic computing. I'm in no rush as the weather is going to be bad for a bit longer. Maybe some Saturday at Walmart. The Model 80 is stuffed as the other were, I will have to open it up. I found another video capture card, still in the anti static bag (Tecmar) I did use the model 80 for AB PLC dev and surfing the net at one time.. Dan ----- Original Message ----- From: "Teo Zenios" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Wednesday, February 03, 2010 2:34 AM Subject: Re: Free for pickup > Any interesting cards in the model 80? Looks like it has a nice cdrom and > bezel installed. > When do you need the stuff gone by anyway? I was hoping to snag them at > the Wallmart we meet at when the weather is decent if that is ok? > > Of the list the Model 80, Model 70 (486), and the PS/2 TV would be cool. > > From ddsnyder at zoominternet.net Wed Feb 3 19:21:47 2010 From: ddsnyder at zoominternet.net (Daniel Snyder) Date: Wed, 3 Feb 2010 20:21:47 -0500 Subject: Free for pickup References: <990883.74434.qm@web55304.mail.re4.yahoo.com> <000e01caa29f$29640140$6501a8c0@HP24150918428><9170DDFC830640998DEADA523455E505@dell8300><4B68F36E.3010203@oldskool.org> <0fec01caa504$a05074c0$0132a8c0@Alexandre> Message-ID: <003a01caa538$6b75e300$6501a8c0@HP24150918428> Alex, Go to my Picassa site on Google. Google "Alphaserver" under images and that should find me. Look under one of the folder (I do not recall) for photos.. Dan ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alexandre Souza - Listas" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Wednesday, February 03, 2010 2:07 PM Subject: Re: Free for pickup >>> What *was* the PS/2 TV box? I thought he was being tongue-in-cheek >>> describing a particular type of monitor. >> http://ohlandl.ipv7.net/video/PS2_TV.html > > Photos?! Wasn't able to google it :( > From ddsnyder at zoominternet.net Wed Feb 3 19:27:18 2010 From: ddsnyder at zoominternet.net (Daniel Snyder) Date: Wed, 3 Feb 2010 20:27:18 -0500 Subject: Free for pickup References: <990883.74434.qm@web55304.mail.re4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <004601caa539$311fd890$6501a8c0@HP24150918428> Just a note to the group. I have noted as of today, no takers for the Centronics printers.. I do not want to trash these. So maybe if no takers, I could find someone going to the VCF Mid and East and possibly donate these to some museum. The 761 was used on a PDP 11/23 at one time, the 779 was on my Imsai and the 781 came out of a car dealership. Dan From dkelvey at hotmail.com Thu Feb 4 09:28:53 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Thu, 4 Feb 2010 07:28:53 -0800 Subject: Poly8813 on ebay In-Reply-To: <001e01caa537$453a3f70$6501a8c0@HP24150918428> References: <4B686BC2.4040707@verizon.net>, , , <001e01caa537$453a3f70$6501a8c0@HP24150918428> Message-ID: Hi Dan Marvin and I are about the only ones on this group that I now of that have these. I also have a couple Poly88s that I actually use every now and then. They are handy for debuging S-100 boards, having the cover off ( needed anyway ) and access to the side of the board. I'd be curious what disk you have? I've written a program for a PC to look like a 8813 with the FTP program ( not to be confused with todays FTP ). I use it to save images of disk on my system. I've also been recovering a number of disk that are on loan from Marvin ( got to get these back to him ). These were archieve disk fro Polymorphic. They mostly contain source text for their manuals but also include a few other interesting things as well. It has been difficult as the disk are mostly double density and the only hard sectored double density controller I have is for 8 inch disk. I've modified that controller and written enought code to extract sector images from the 5.25 disk. Dwight > From: ddsnyder at zoominternet.net > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Poly8813 on ebay > Date: Wed, 3 Feb 2010 20:13:33 -0500 > > What a surprise, a Poly collector... I have a 8813 with the 88/DS drives > with all the sales literature I got from a local dealer. > > I've had this machine since 1981. Do't really here much discussons about it > or hear much from Ralph Kenyon these days about the Poly Letter news letter > he publish once upon a time.. > > Dan > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "dwight elvey" > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Sent: Tuesday, February 02, 2010 8:17 PM > Subject: Poly8813 on ebay > > > > Hi > I thought I'd mention that there is a Poly 8813 ( actually a 8812 ) > on ebay. One of the pictures shows me with a working machine > but the machine on ebay is not my machine ( although it might > be thought as being mine ). It is one of the two machine that mine > was one of that is mentioned on one of the web pages and serial > numbers. > The working state of the one on the web is unknown to me. > I would be willing to help, anyone that buys the machine, to > bring it to life. I can provide a boot disk, disk images and even help > diagnose problems. > I think his asking price is a little high but he seems to be open > to offers as well. > Dwight > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Hotmail: Trusted email with Microsoft?s powerful SPAM protection. > http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/201469226/direct/01/ > _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail: Free, trusted and rich email service. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/201469228/direct/01/ From dkelvey at hotmail.com Thu Feb 4 09:38:09 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Thu, 4 Feb 2010 07:38:09 -0800 Subject: GPIB board from with NEC uPD7210C In-Reply-To: <4B6A0E09.9020904@telus.net> References: , <3BC364AE-9887-40E6-8472-E1B0EFBAD73F@comcast.net>, <4B6A0E09.9020904@telus.net> Message-ID: Hi I got this board and I'd like to use it. It is a ISA board with a 7210 controller chip. It also has an EPROM on it as well with a sticker and NEC 590 on it. Does anyone have any info on this board or the EPROM as to how to use it. I found some good docs on the NAT7210 chip that has a 7210 compatability mode but I was hoping to avoid writing my own code and taking advantage of the boards EPROM code. I was also hoping to avoid disassembling the EPROM. Thanks Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail: Trusted email with Microsoft?s powerful SPAM protection. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/201469226/direct/01/ From marvin at west.net Thu Feb 4 10:13:15 2010 From: marvin at west.net (Marvin Johnston) Date: Thu, 04 Feb 2010 08:13:15 -0800 Subject: Poly8813 on ebay Message-ID: <4B6AF21B.2080804@west.net> > The 8812 is not the original and much rarer Polymorphic Micro-Altair, > later called Poly-88. Those came out in 1976 and might fetch $8000. > The 8813 series were advertised into early 1979 and are worth more like > $400-600 at best, in unknown condition. > > Bill The 8812 is the same as the 8813 with the exception of it only having two disk drives. Re: the Micro-Altair. The story I've heard is that the Poly88 was originally named the Micro-Altair, but the name was changed because of objections from MITS. I've talked to a number of people who used to work at Polymorphic trying to find out if the Micro-Altair actually existed as a physical product. To date, I haven't found anyone who has said the Micro-Altair actually existed. FWIW as I've mentioned from time to time, I probably have the largest collection of Poly documentation left as well as stuff I've never heard of before. When Poly shut down, they put all of their stuff that was left in storage. A friend of mine knew the owner and acquired a lot of it, and gave it to me. One of my many todo projects is to get this stuff saved as it includes source code and manuals for most of their products. There is a little over one full filing cabinet full of docs in addition to several boxes of parts. Something that I find fascinating is one of their business plans after Poly had a change in management about 1981 as it includes flyers and information about their then current product line. From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Feb 4 11:17:09 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 4 Feb 2010 12:17:09 -0500 Subject: DOS Widgets In-Reply-To: <5EDA5B14711A@dunfield.com> References: <5EDA5B14711A@dunfield.com> Message-ID: <27B8A363-ED38-4C54-95BE-8E47F9D82077@neurotica.com> On Feb 1, 2010, at 5:43 PM, Dave Dunfield wrote: > Not many DOSheads left (I still have a DOS machine on my desk which > I use daily), but perhaps someone will still benefit from this... > > FWIW - I've started to catalog and post some of the various widgets > I've created for DOS over the years. Items range from trivial > utilities > to fairly complex packages. Some of these were commercial packages > that > I once sold mail-order (and later the web), while others are just > things > I put together for my own use. > > I'm not sure if/where I'll post it permanantly, however for now I've > put a link at the bottom of "Dave's old computers" - Enjoy. I use DOS (under an emulator) with some regularity, mostly for PALASM. It's good to see some DOS preservation going on. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Thu Feb 4 13:37:29 2010 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Thu, 4 Feb 2010 11:37:29 -0800 (PST) Subject: OT: identifying radio coils Message-ID: I was wondering if anyone has an Alenco 108TK am/fm radio kit and knows the specs of the coils in that kit. I'm tinkering about with replicating that kit as a small PCB to be put into a wooden cabinet. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Feb 4 13:15:06 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 4 Feb 2010 19:15:06 +0000 (GMT) Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 78, Issue 3 In-Reply-To: <9017D573-6462-4BE8-A7BD-80F48E6C3091@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Feb 3, 10 03:19:35 pm Message-ID: > > > That is almost always the case :-). In fact just about every Intel > > chip > > I've ever used has had a major dsesign misfeature. Heck, they're > > the only > > company that managed to screw up the design of a parallel interface > > chip. > > The 8255 with its stupid reset-all-pin-states-on-mode-change > business? That's the one. A more stupid design decision is hard to imagine! Not having individual direction cotrnol bits for each I/O line is bad, but just abotu tolerable. But the fact that any write to the mode register clears all output lines to 0 (even if the mode register is not in fact changed) is ridiculous. After a hardware reset all port lines are inputs (at least they got that bit right). So a TTL input connected to such a lien will float high, and in any case it's easier to pull a TTL input high than to pull it low. You now program the mode register, and all outputs go low. You cna then set some of them high again. You have to design your peripejhral circuitry to not be bothered by the fact that the inputs to it will be 1 after a reset, and then go to 0 whwen the 8255 is programmed. With better-designed I/O chips (just about all others), you can pre-load the output port regsiters with 1s, then program the driection bits, and the signals to your peripheral logic will remain at 1 from the time of the hardware rest right through the programming of the parallel port chip until you want to set a p[articular line low. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Feb 4 13:17:36 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 4 Feb 2010 19:17:36 +0000 (GMT) Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 78, Issue 3 In-Reply-To: <4B697D9B.10575.1139948@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Feb 3, 10 01:43:55 pm Message-ID: > "Cost reduced?" What happens if one tries to put a DART into > synchronous mode? Always wondered, never got the opportunity to try. I always wondered (based on the register definitions) if the DART was a SIO with a defect in the synchoronous section. Has anyone ever looked at the 2 dice? -tony From pontus at Update.UU.SE Thu Feb 4 14:12:36 2010 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Thu, 4 Feb 2010 21:12:36 +0100 Subject: Free SGI Onyx2 in =?iso-8859-1?Q?Link=F6pi?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?ng?= Sweden Message-ID: <20100204201236.GA30431@Update.UU.SE> Hi This is a longshot, if you can make it to link?ping with a truck within two weeks, I can probably hook you up with 4 racks worth of SGI Onyx2. /Pontus. From cclist at sydex.com Thu Feb 4 15:20:44 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 04 Feb 2010 13:20:44 -0800 Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 78, Issue 3 In-Reply-To: References: <9017D573-6462-4BE8-A7BD-80F48E6C3091@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Feb 3, 10 03:19:35 pm, Message-ID: <4B6AC9AC.31049.130CF7E@cclist.sydex.com> On 4 Feb 2010 at 19:15, Tony Duell wrote: > That's the one. A more stupid design decision is hard to imagine! Okay, in Intel's defense, are there any earlier peripheral chips for the 8-bit bus (I don't count the 8212 and the 8205)? ...and here we are, more than 35 years down the road and you can still buy the things new. Say what you want about it--it's probably one of the most durable peripheral chips out there. --Chuck From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Thu Feb 4 19:33:15 2010 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Thu, 04 Feb 2010 20:33:15 -0500 Subject: PDF files for Matrox Qbus QRGB boards Message-ID: <4B6B755B.9020100@compsys.to> In case anyone is interested, I sent Al Kossow the (PDF) manuals for the Qbus Matrox QRGB-Alpha and QRGB-Graph boards. He did not respond to or acknowledge my e-mail. In addition, the PDF manuals are still not available at bitsavers. Al, if you are reading this, did you discard my e-mail? If you are interested, I can send the e-mail again. I have other manuals as well. If anyone needs these manuals immediately, I can e-mail them to you. They are 13 MB. If you can not accept an e-mail that size, I can break the e-mail into two parts. Evidently, Glen Herrmannsfeldt scanned these manuals. He also sent them to me. The e-mail from Glen with the manuals arrived after Lou Ernst mentioned that Glen probably had the manuals, but had not scanned them at the time (a few years) ago. After I reminded Glen, he sent to to me. THANK YOU to both Lou and Glen. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine From snhirsch at gmail.com Thu Feb 4 06:54:00 2010 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Thu, 4 Feb 2010 07:54:00 -0500 (EST) Subject: Poly8813 on ebay In-Reply-To: References: , <4B69C9D5.2050007@degnanco.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 3 Feb 2010, dwight elvey wrote: > Altair shut them down before any of these were ever shipped. At least, > that is what I've heard from several sources. When that advertisement was > released, they hadn't even created a single production unit. All were still > prototype levels. They were waiting to see what volume they needed before > ordering boards. A time-honored tradition in the electronic instrumentation field. My father was lead engineer for Panoramic Corp. (swept spectrum analyzers) in the early 60s. He had many stories about mockup units with knobs glued to the front panel that were built solely to guage interest at trade shows. This probably dates back to the horse and buggy, when you get right down to it. -- From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Feb 5 01:30:27 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 5 Feb 2010 02:30:27 -0500 Subject: Poly8813 on ebay In-Reply-To: References: , <4B69C9D5.2050007@degnanco.com> Message-ID: <22B94BBD-C4BA-4AB0-A5DB-CACE31ED55C9@neurotica.com> On Feb 4, 2010, at 7:54 AM, Steven Hirsch wrote: > A time-honored tradition in the electronic instrumentation field. > My father was lead engineer for Panoramic Corp. (swept spectrum > analyzers) in the early 60s. He had many stories about mockup > units with knobs glued to the front panel that were built solely to > guage interest at trade shows. This probably dates back to the > horse and buggy, when you get right down to it. Panoramic...Is that the company that was bought out by Singer? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Fri Feb 5 03:12:54 2010 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Fri, 05 Feb 2010 01:12:54 -0800 Subject: Panoramic / was Re: Poly8813 on ebay References: , <4B69C9D5.2050007@degnanco.com> Message-ID: <4B6BE115.27FAF63A@cs.ubc.ca> Steven Hirsch wrote: > > On Wed, 3 Feb 2010, dwight elvey wrote: > > > Altair shut them down before any of these were ever shipped. At least, > > that is what I've heard from several sources. When that advertisement was > > released, they hadn't even created a single production unit. All were still > > prototype levels. They were waiting to see what volume they needed before > > ordering boards. > > A time-honored tradition in the electronic instrumentation field. My > father was lead engineer for Panoramic Corp. (swept spectrum analyzers) > in the early 60s. He had many stories about mockup units with knobs glued > to the front panel that were built solely to guage interest at trade > shows. This probably dates back to the horse and buggy, when you get > right down to it. 'Panalysers'? One of those came through the radio museum a few years ago. Giant (~2 ft of rack) tube-based spectrum analyser, low-GHz range IIRC, would have been fun to work on, .. but too many such fun things to do. From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Feb 5 10:19:09 2010 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 05 Feb 2010 08:19:09 -0800 Subject: PDF files for Matrox Qbus QRGB boards In-Reply-To: <4B6B755B.9020100@compsys.to> References: <4B6B755B.9020100@compsys.to> Message-ID: <4B6C44FD.5070509@bitsavers.org> On 2/4/10 5:33 PM, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > I sent Al Kossow the (PDF) manuals for the > Qbus Matrox QRGB-Alpha and QRGB-Graph boards. He did not respond to > or acknowledge my e-mail. In addition, the PDF manuals are still not > available at bitsavers. Your files in my inbox at 7PM Feb 3. Unsolicited donations are put into the work queue. You said to NOT reply if I was interested, which is what I did. They are up now without OCR. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Feb 5 12:41:06 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 5 Feb 2010 18:41:06 +0000 (GMT) Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 78, Issue 3 In-Reply-To: <4B6AC9AC.31049.130CF7E@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Feb 4, 10 01:20:44 pm Message-ID: > > On 4 Feb 2010 at 19:15, Tony Duell wrote: > > > That's the one. A more stupid design decision is hard to imagine! > > Okay, in Intel's defense, are there any earlier peripheral chips for > the 8-bit bus (I don't count the 8212 and the 8205)? When did the 6820 come out? Even so, the knoweldge that TTL inputs float high, and can more easily be pulled high than low was very well known at the time. Whoever designed that chip was not thinkibng aobut how it was going to be used IMHO. I am not talking aobut somebody finding an application later on for which the original design wasn't perfect, but actually I can't think of a single applicaiton where the behaviour of the 8255 is desireable. I can think of some where it doens't matter, but none where you'd avtually want a chip that behaves that way. > > ...and here we are, more than 35 years down the road and you can > still buy the things new. Say what you want about it--it's probably > one of the most durable peripheral chips out there. And I am still wondering why... -tony From cclist at sydex.com Fri Feb 5 13:40:22 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 05 Feb 2010 11:40:22 -0800 Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 78, Issue 3 In-Reply-To: References: <4B6AC9AC.31049.130CF7E@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Feb 4, 10 01:20:44 pm, Message-ID: <4B6C03A6.22917.B1C4F8@cclist.sydex.com> On 5 Feb 2010 at 18:41, Tony Duell wrote: > Even so, the knoweldge that TTL inputs float high, and can more easily > be pulled high than low was very well known at the time. Whoever > designed that chip was not thinkibng aobut how it was going to be used > IMHO. I am not talking aobut somebody finding an application later on > for which the original design wasn't perfect, but actually I can't > think of a single applicaiton where the behaviour of the 8255 is > desireable. I can think of some where it doens't matter, but none > where you'd avtually want a chip that behaves that way. That being said, apparently few think that it's an issue, as a web search doesn't turn up much in the way of grumbling. But how many 8255s are installed in an application where mode switching is used? Darned few, I would guess. The 8255 was obsolete years ago. It's slow and most of the desired functionality can be gotten more easily with other means, either with programmable logic or even SSI. So we're really beating a dead horse. --Chuck From emu at e-bbes.com Fri Feb 5 15:14:37 2010 From: emu at e-bbes.com (e.stiebler) Date: Fri, 05 Feb 2010 14:14:37 -0700 Subject: hp 9153 floppy & disk Message-ID: <4B6C8A3D.9060200@e-bbes.com> Hello all, anybody knows the exact type of the hard drives in the hp 9153 enclosure ? Got an empty one :( From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Feb 5 16:01:45 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 5 Feb 2010 17:01:45 -0500 Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 78, Issue 3 In-Reply-To: <4B6C03A6.22917.B1C4F8@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4B6AC9AC.31049.130CF7E@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Feb 4, 10 01:20:44 pm, <4B6C03A6.22917.B1C4F8@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4EE679E7-4C75-45A2-8CF9-7A97951D9231@neurotica.com> On Feb 5, 2010, at 2:40 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> Even so, the knoweldge that TTL inputs float high, and can more >> easily >> be pulled high than low was very well known at the time. Whoever >> designed that chip was not thinkibng aobut how it was going to be >> used >> IMHO. I am not talking aobut somebody finding an application later on >> for which the original design wasn't perfect, but actually I can't >> think of a single applicaiton where the behaviour of the 8255 is >> desireable. I can think of some where it doens't matter, but none >> where you'd avtually want a chip that behaves that way. > > That being said, apparently few think that it's an issue, as a web > search doesn't turn up much in the way of grumbling. But how many > 8255s are installed in an application where mode switching is used? > > Darned few, I would guess. > > The 8255 was obsolete years ago. It's slow and most of the desired > functionality can be gotten more easily with other means, either with > programmable logic or even SSI. > > So we're really beating a dead horse. 8255s are frequently used to interface to IDE drives, and mode switching is required in that application, and it does get in the way. Mostly people have dealt with it by using inverters on some of the lines. Why people don't just choose a better chip for that is beyond me. It's much easier to do with a Z80 PIO if you're using an appropriate bus. I'm sure the 6821 would be easy too. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cclist at sydex.com Fri Feb 5 16:14:15 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 05 Feb 2010 14:14:15 -0800 Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 78, Issue 3 In-Reply-To: <4EE679E7-4C75-45A2-8CF9-7A97951D9231@neurotica.com> References: <4B6AC9AC.31049.130CF7E@cclist.sydex.com>, <4B6C03A6.22917.B1C4F8@cclist.sydex.com>, <4EE679E7-4C75-45A2-8CF9-7A97951D9231@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4B6C27B7.17613.13EA751@cclist.sydex.com> On 5 Feb 2010 at 17:01, Dave McGuire wrote: > 8255s are frequently used to interface to IDE drives, and mode > switching is required in that application, and it does get in the > way. Mostly people have dealt with it by using inverters on some of > the lines. Really? I don't think I've seen a single piece of modern gear made in the last 10 years that uses an 8255 to interface to an IDE drive. They do have specialized chips to do that... If it's the hobbyist clan, well, that's a different matter. I'd think even a small CPLD would do a better job. --Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Feb 5 16:17:56 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 5 Feb 2010 17:17:56 -0500 Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 78, Issue 3 In-Reply-To: <4B6C27B7.17613.13EA751@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4B6AC9AC.31049.130CF7E@cclist.sydex.com>, <4B6C03A6.22917.B1C4F8@cclist.sydex.com>, <4EE679E7-4C75-45A2-8CF9-7A97951D9231@neurotica.com> <4B6C27B7.17613.13EA751@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Feb 5, 2010, at 5:14 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> 8255s are frequently used to interface to IDE drives, and mode >> switching is required in that application, and it does get in the >> way. Mostly people have dealt with it by using inverters on some of >> the lines. > > Really? I don't think I've seen a single piece of modern gear made > in the last 10 years that uses an 8255 to interface to an IDE drive. > They do have specialized chips to do that... > > If it's the hobbyist clan, well, that's a different matter. The SBC6120 comes to mind. Considering the number of units sold and the level of commercialization of the whole deal, I'm not sure I'd consider it "hobbyist clan". > I'd think even a small CPLD would do a better job. That's what I'd have done on that board. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Feb 5 16:27:08 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 5 Feb 2010 17:27:08 -0500 Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 78, Issue 3 In-Reply-To: <4B6C27B7.17613.13EA751@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4B6AC9AC.31049.130CF7E@cclist.sydex.com> <4B6C03A6.22917.B1C4F8@cclist.sydex.com> <4EE679E7-4C75-45A2-8CF9-7A97951D9231@neurotica.com> <4B6C27B7.17613.13EA751@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On 2/5/10, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Really? I don't think I've seen a single piece of modern gear made > in the last 10 years that uses an 8255 to interface to an IDE drive. > They do have specialized chips to do that... > > If it's the hobbyist clan, well, that's a different matter. I'd > think even a small CPLD would do a better job. The Spare Time Gizmos SBC6120 happens to use an 8255 for its IDE interface. It has three GALs and no CPLDs. It is less than 10 years old. -ethan From cclist at sydex.com Fri Feb 5 16:59:12 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 05 Feb 2010 14:59:12 -0800 Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 78, Issue 3 In-Reply-To: References: <4B6AC9AC.31049.130CF7E@cclist.sydex.com>, <4B6C27B7.17613.13EA751@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4B6C3240.15004.167CDDD@cclist.sydex.com> On 5 Feb 2010 at 17:27, Ethan Dicks wrote: > The Spare Time Gizmos SBC6120 happens to use an 8255 for its IDE > interface. It has three GALs and no CPLDs. It is less than 10 years > old. You're still talking "retro hobbyist", aren't you? Or are new PDP-8 systems being deployed in commercial applications today? --Chuck From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Feb 5 17:09:04 2010 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Fri, 05 Feb 2010 16:09:04 -0700 Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 78, Issue 3 In-Reply-To: References: <4B6AC9AC.31049.130CF7E@cclist.sydex.com>, <4B6C03A6.22917.B1C4F8@cclist.sydex.com>, <4EE679E7-4C75-45A2-8CF9-7A97951D9231@neurotica.com> <4B6C27B7.17613.13EA751@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4B6CA510.2060202@jetnet.ab.ca> Dave McGuire wrote: > The SBC6120 comes to mind. Considering the number of units sold and the > level of commercialization of the whole deal, I'm not sure I'd consider > it "hobbyist clan". > >> I'd think even a small CPLD would do a better job. > > That's what I'd have done on that board. With the short supply of 6120 chips, don't grumble about what you get. > -Dave Now if you had a small PDP-11 for board for sale ... I'd buy one. Ben. From ajp166 at verizon.net Fri Feb 5 17:17:02 2010 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Fri, 05 Feb 2010 18:17:02 -0500 Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 78, Issue 3 In-Reply-To: References: <4B6AC9AC.31049.130CF7E@cclist.sydex.com> <4B6C03A6.22917.B1C4F8@cclist.sydex.com> <4EE679E7-4C75-45A2-8CF9-7A97951D9231@neurotica.com> <4B6C27B7.17613.13EA751@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4B6CA6EE.8000900@verizon.net> Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 2/5/10, Chuck Guzis wrote: > >> Really? I don't think I've seen a single piece of modern gear made >> in the last 10 years that uses an 8255 to interface to an IDE drive. >> They do have specialized chips to do that... >> >> If it's the hobbyist clan, well, that's a different matter. I'd >> think even a small CPLD would do a better job. >> > > The Spare Time Gizmos SBC6120 happens to use an 8255 for its IDE > interface. It has three GALs and no CPLDs. It is less than 10 years > old. > > -ethan > Using an 8255 makes it electrically simple and trades for programming. However.. it's slower than sludge doing it that way. I have done it that way (using BCC180 Micromint Z180 card) as it had 8255s on it and its about 8x-10x slower than doing a real direct port IO. NOTE: all the IDE interface is is a address decode and bus buffer as all the intelligence is on the drive. Most System that use IDE are 80x86 or other 16bit wide(or wider) systems. The reason to use 8255 on small micros (8051, 8085, z80, z180, 6502 6809) is that IDE data path is 16bits wide and the using two ports of the 8255 you can do the needed byte latch to transfer 16bits is two reads or writes. Other designs use TTL or maybe a GAL (GIDE) to perform that or as I did I just ignore the upper 8bits and treat the device as 256bytes/sector rather than 512. However the amount of TTL to do the latch the upper byte bidirectionally is fairly small for those that wish a purist interface. But with large hundreds of megabytes to small 10s of gigabytes throwing every other byte away is a small to no cost. Also later drives use LBA addressing which is far easier to work with then CHS. One caveat.. USE CF and that does the 8bit transfer that IDE documented but only a few old drives implemented. That works well and require only two address blocks to work and near zero logic beyond address selection and buffers where needed. Anywho the IDE interface chips from the PC market are all basically 16bit wide bus, IDE drive 0,1 address decode and some extra logic to do burst mode DMA, block DMA (Both required external DMA support) or PIO. in the x86 space. FYI PIO unlike floppies is buffered on the disk so the IO can be does as fast or slow as the programmer wishes to the limits of ATAPI spec (all do minimally 33mbytes/sec and later are faster). Allison From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Feb 5 17:04:08 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 5 Feb 2010 23:04:08 +0000 (GMT) Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 78, Issue 3 In-Reply-To: <4B6C03A6.22917.B1C4F8@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Feb 5, 10 11:40:22 am Message-ID: > That being said, apparently few think that it's an issue, as a web > search doesn't turn up much in the way of grumbling. But how many > 8255s are installed in an application where mode switching is used? > > Darned few, I would guess. The problem is still there even if you don't want to change modes after inintialisation. After a hardware reset all pins you want to use as outputs (that is pins you have connected to inputs of your peripheral logic) are going to appear floating, so if your peripheral logic is TTL (a good bet at the time the 8255 was designed), they will appear high. As soon as you program the mode register, all those lines go low. You can then set them back to your desired states. But your logic has to be designed to cope with that. I am trying to think of where the 8255 was used. OK, on the 5150 and 5160 motherboard to handle the keyboard interface and DIP switches, where glitches don't matter. What other major uses did it have? Very frw of my classic computers use one. > > The 8255 was obsolete years ago. It's slow and most of the desired > functionality can be gotten more easily with other means, either with > programmable logic or even SSI. So? This is classiccmp > > So we're really beating a dead horse. I was simply pointing out that Intel even managed to mis-design a parallel port chip. Most of their other chips were equaliy inellegant. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Feb 5 17:13:16 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 5 Feb 2010 23:13:16 +0000 (GMT) Subject: hp 9153 floppy & disk In-Reply-To: <4B6C8A3D.9060200@e-bbes.com> from "e.stiebler" at Feb 5, 10 02:14:37 pm Message-ID: > > Hello all, > > anybody knows the exact type of the hard drives in the hp 9153 enclosure ? > > Got an empty one :( Was that the one that was on E-bay recently? Which 9153? There are several, and IIRC at least 2 diferent types of hard drive where used. There are some manuals on http://www.hpmuseum.net/ including boardswapper guides and CE manuals that might give you some clues. The one I have (actually an HP9154, which is the smae unit without the floppy drive) uses the HP Nighthawk drives, which have a strange interface on a 40 pin combined power and data cable. I seem to rember there was an earlier unit that used a more standard drive. -tony > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Feb 5 17:15:30 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 5 Feb 2010 23:15:30 +0000 (GMT) Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 78, Issue 3 In-Reply-To: <4B6C27B7.17613.13EA751@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Feb 5, 10 02:14:15 pm Message-ID: > > On 5 Feb 2010 at 17:01, Dave McGuire wrote: > > > 8255s are frequently used to interface to IDE drives, and mode > > switching is required in that application, and it does get in the > > way. Mostly people have dealt with it by using inverters on some of > > the lines. > > Really? I don't think I've seen a single piece of modern gear made > in the last 10 years that uses an 8255 to interface to an IDE drive. > They do have specialized chips to do that... An 8255 is a ridiculous choice to interface to an IDE drive!. I've never seen it used for that either. The IDE card in this machine uses a few TTL buffers and a couple oF PALs for address decoding, etc. > > If it's the hobbyist clan, well, that's a different matter. I'd > think even a small CPLD would do a better job. This assumes you have the facilities to program the CPLD, the development software _and somethign to run it on_. That is not always the case. -tony From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Feb 5 17:21:03 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 5 Feb 2010 18:21:03 -0500 Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 78, Issue 3 In-Reply-To: <4B6C3240.15004.167CDDD@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4B6AC9AC.31049.130CF7E@cclist.sydex.com>, <4B6C27B7.17613.13EA751@cclist.sydex.com>, <4B6C3240.15004.167CDDD@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <0DE03031-EC7B-4724-AB91-07AC392BF1DC@neurotica.com> On Feb 5, 2010, at 5:59 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> The Spare Time Gizmos SBC6120 happens to use an 8255 for its IDE >> interface. It has three GALs and no CPLDs. It is less than 10 years >> old. > > You're still talking "retro hobbyist", aren't you? Or are new PDP-8 > systems being deployed in commercial applications today? Lack of "commercial applications" doesn't imply "hobbyist". Every Toys-R-Us store is filled to overflowing with proof of that. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Feb 5 17:22:31 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 5 Feb 2010 18:22:31 -0500 Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 78, Issue 3 In-Reply-To: <4B6CA510.2060202@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4B6AC9AC.31049.130CF7E@cclist.sydex.com>, <4B6C03A6.22917.B1C4F8@cclist.sydex.com>, <4EE679E7-4C75-45A2-8CF9-7A97951D9231@neurotica.com> <4B6C27B7.17613.13EA751@cclist.sydex.com> <4B6CA510.2060202@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <05D7503D-62FF-4A8C-AD39-CB6CCA431E97@neurotica.com> On Feb 5, 2010, at 6:09 PM, Ben wrote: >> The SBC6120 comes to mind. Considering the number of units sold >> and the >> level of commercialization of the whole deal, I'm not sure I'd >> consider >> it "hobbyist clan". >> >>> I'd think even a small CPLD would do a better job. >> >> That's what I'd have done on that board. > > With the short supply of 6120 chips, don't grumble about what you get. The use of the 8255 in that design has precisely zero to do with the supply of 6120 chips. And (in case Bob is listening) I didn't mean to grumble, just state that were I the designer, I'd have used a different chip...that's all. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Feb 5 17:30:03 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 5 Feb 2010 18:30:03 -0500 Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 78, Issue 3 In-Reply-To: <0DE03031-EC7B-4724-AB91-07AC392BF1DC@neurotica.com> References: <4B6AC9AC.31049.130CF7E@cclist.sydex.com>, <4B6C27B7.17613.13EA751@cclist.sydex.com>, <4B6C3240.15004.167CDDD@cclist.sydex.com> <0DE03031-EC7B-4724-AB91-07AC392BF1DC@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <0F8BC141-65CC-4B40-95AD-FFB13122A7E7@neurotica.com> On Feb 5, 2010, at 6:21 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: >>> The Spare Time Gizmos SBC6120 happens to use an 8255 for its IDE >>> interface. It has three GALs and no CPLDs. It is less than 10 >>> years >>> old. >> >> You're still talking "retro hobbyist", aren't you? Or are new PDP-8 >> systems being deployed in commercial applications today? > > Lack of "commercial applications" doesn't imply "hobbyist". > Every Toys-R-Us store is filled to overflowing with proof of that. [replying to my own post because I think I wasn't clear] The product is produced by a professional organization that does professional-grade work...and it has an 8255 in it. The fact that the product is targeted primarily at the hobbyist market isn't relevant here. -Dave > -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cclist at sydex.com Fri Feb 5 17:51:54 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 05 Feb 2010 15:51:54 -0800 Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 78, Issue 3 In-Reply-To: References: <4B6C03A6.22917.B1C4F8@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Feb 5, 10 11:40:22 am, Message-ID: <4B6C3E9A.17202.1980CF0@cclist.sydex.com> On 5 Feb 2010 at 23:04, Tony Duell wrote: > I am trying to think of where the 8255 was used. OK, on the 5150 and > 5160 motherboard to handle the keyboard interface and DIP switches, > where glitches don't matter. What other major uses did it have? Very > frw of my classic computers use one. Quite a few 8-bit x80 micros used them them for various purposes (yes, even Z80 systems); The 5150 BIOS refers to an 8255 in the printer code, even though they didn't use one. A FAX machine I looked at not long ago used one. I've got a 90's PCI-bus data aquisition card that uses 3 of them. But there really is no good reason to use an 8255, a Z80 PIO, a 6820 or even a 6522 in a new design today, other than for nostalgia's sake. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Fri Feb 5 17:58:16 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 05 Feb 2010 15:58:16 -0800 Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 78, Issue 3 In-Reply-To: References: <4B6C27B7.17613.13EA751@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Feb 5, 10 02:14:15 pm, Message-ID: <4B6C4018.5886.19DE1DB@cclist.sydex.com> On 5 Feb 2010 at 23:15, Tony Duell wrote: > This assumes you have the facilities to program the CPLD, the > development software _and somethign to run it on_. That is not always > the case. Both Xilinx and Altera offer free development software for their devices. And Windows or Linux PCs aren't exactly uncommon. Programmers can be little more than a couple of buffers connected to a PCs parallel port--or (heaven forfend!) a USB interface. --Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Feb 5 17:59:52 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 5 Feb 2010 18:59:52 -0500 Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 78, Issue 3 In-Reply-To: <4B6C3E9A.17202.1980CF0@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4B6C03A6.22917.B1C4F8@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Feb 5, 10 11:40:22 am, <4B6C3E9A.17202.1980CF0@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <336A44A1-9637-4947-8487-3719F9E8049D@neurotica.com> On Feb 5, 2010, at 6:51 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> I am trying to think of where the 8255 was used. OK, on the 5150 and >> 5160 motherboard to handle the keyboard interface and DIP switches, >> where glitches don't matter. What other major uses did it have? Very >> frw of my classic computers use one. > > Quite a few 8-bit x80 micros used them them for various purposes > (yes, even Z80 systems); The 5150 BIOS refers to an 8255 in the > printer code, even though they didn't use one. A FAX machine I > looked at not long ago used one. I've got a 90's PCI-bus data > aquisition card that uses 3 of them. I wonder if the 5150 was originally designed with an 8255? > But there really is no good reason to use an 8255, a Z80 PIO, a 6820 > or even a 6522 in a new design today, other than for nostalgia's > sake. Well if you really want to think that way, there's really no good reason to use ANY digital component (save for perhaps the very highest-clocked microprocessors) other than an FPGA in a new design today. -Dave > -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cclist at sydex.com Fri Feb 5 18:01:55 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 05 Feb 2010 16:01:55 -0800 Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 78, Issue 3 In-Reply-To: <4B6CA6EE.8000900@verizon.net> References: <4B6AC9AC.31049.130CF7E@cclist.sydex.com>, , <4B6CA6EE.8000900@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4B6C40F3.24346.1A138F5@cclist.sydex.com> On 5 Feb 2010 at 18:17, allison wrote: > Anywho the IDE interface chips from the PC market are all basically > 16bit wide bus, IDE drive 0,1 address decode and some extra logic to > do burst mode DMA, block DMA (Both required external DMA support) or > PIO. in the x86 space. FYI PIO unlike floppies is buffered on the > disk so the IO can be does as fast or slow as the programmer wishes to > the limits of ATAPI spec (all do minimally 33mbytes/sec and later are > faster). Just about any IDE disk drive made in the last 20 years also has a 16- bit data path (very old XTIDE drives could do 8 bit, but they're hard to find. I don't know about microdrives). So that's a problem with or without an interface chip if what you want to do is interface to an 8-bit bus--and use all of the available space on the disk. --Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Feb 5 18:07:25 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 5 Feb 2010 19:07:25 -0500 Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 78, Issue 3 In-Reply-To: <4B6C40F3.24346.1A138F5@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4B6AC9AC.31049.130CF7E@cclist.sydex.com>, , <4B6CA6EE.8000900@verizon.net> <4B6C40F3.24346.1A138F5@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <91CEA80A-D353-43DE-97B7-81600CAC997F@neurotica.com> On Feb 5, 2010, at 7:01 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> Anywho the IDE interface chips from the PC market are all basically >> 16bit wide bus, IDE drive 0,1 address decode and some extra logic to >> do burst mode DMA, block DMA (Both required external DMA support) or >> PIO. in the x86 space. FYI PIO unlike floppies is buffered on the >> disk so the IO can be does as fast or slow as the programmer >> wishes to >> the limits of ATAPI spec (all do minimally 33mbytes/sec and later are >> faster). > > Just about any IDE disk drive made in the last 20 years also has a 16- > bit data path (very old XTIDE drives could do 8 bit, but they're hard > to find. I don't know about microdrives). So that's a problem with > or without an interface chip if what you want to do is interface to > an 8-bit bus--and use all of the available space on the disk. Microdrives conform to the CF standard, which requires that the 8- bit mode be implemented. -Dave > -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From emu at e-bbes.com Fri Feb 5 18:06:33 2010 From: emu at e-bbes.com (e.stiebler) Date: Fri, 05 Feb 2010 17:06:33 -0700 Subject: hp 9153 floppy & disk In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B6CB289.8020702@e-bbes.com> Tony Duell wrote: > The one I have (actually an HP9154, which is the smae unit without the > floppy drive) uses the HP Nighthawk drives, which have a strange > interface on a 40 pin combined power and data cable. I seem to rember > there was an earlier unit that used a more standard drive. But whatever was in it (I was actually wondering about the connector) is not available anymore ... From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Feb 5 18:14:14 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 5 Feb 2010 19:14:14 -0500 Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 78, Issue 3 In-Reply-To: <4B6C3240.15004.167CDDD@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4B6AC9AC.31049.130CF7E@cclist.sydex.com> <4B6C27B7.17613.13EA751@cclist.sydex.com> <4B6C3240.15004.167CDDD@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Feb 5, 2010 at 5:59 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 5 Feb 2010 at 17:27, Ethan Dicks wrote: > >> The Spare Time Gizmos SBC6120 happens to use an 8255 for its IDE >> interface. ?It has three GALs and no CPLDs. ?It is less than 10 years >> old. > > You're still talking "retro hobbyist", aren't you? ?Or are new PDP-8 > systems being deployed in commercial applications today? It's surely a matter of scale, but the order gates are once again open for a minimum run of 50 SBC6120s w/FP6120s for $600. There are more iPods and PS/3s and digital watches than SBC6120s, but I'd call $30K (for just _this_ run) a commercial product, even if the audience is hobbyists. -ethan From cclist at sydex.com Fri Feb 5 18:16:20 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 05 Feb 2010 16:16:20 -0800 Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 78, Issue 3 In-Reply-To: <336A44A1-9637-4947-8487-3719F9E8049D@neurotica.com> References: <4B6C03A6.22917.B1C4F8@cclist.sydex.com>, <4B6C3E9A.17202.1980CF0@cclist.sydex.com>, <336A44A1-9637-4947-8487-3719F9E8049D@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4B6C4454.8035.1AE6B70@cclist.sydex.com> On 5 Feb 2010 at 18:59, Dave McGuire wrote: > Well if you really want to think that way, there's really no good > reason to use ANY digital component (save for perhaps the very > highest-clocked microprocessors) other than an FPGA in a new design > today. I can think of one--money. The cheapest microcontroller is cheaper than the cheapest FPGA. --Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Feb 5 18:22:58 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 5 Feb 2010 19:22:58 -0500 Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 78, Issue 3 In-Reply-To: <4B6C4454.8035.1AE6B70@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4B6C03A6.22917.B1C4F8@cclist.sydex.com>, <4B6C3E9A.17202.1980CF0@cclist.sydex.com>, <336A44A1-9637-4947-8487-3719F9E8049D@neurotica.com> <4B6C4454.8035.1AE6B70@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Feb 5, 2010, at 7:16 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> Well if you really want to think that way, there's really no good >> reason to use ANY digital component (save for perhaps the very >> highest-clocked microprocessors) other than an FPGA in a new design >> today. > > I can think of one--money. The cheapest microcontroller is cheaper > than the cheapest FPGA. Smartass. ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Fri Feb 5 17:40:01 2010 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Fri, 5 Feb 2010 15:40:01 -0800 Subject: Looking for: Dauphin DTR-1 Floppy Message-ID: A number of DTR-1s have been showing up on eBay recently (cheap) so I decided to snag one. (I really wanted one when they were new but my salary as a 15 year old prevented such a thing from happening...) As an additional aside, it's one of few devices that used the HP Kittyhawk drive (a 1.3" 40mb drive). Quite a marvel of engineering in 1993... Anyway, the specimen I obtained works fine (need to rebuild the battery) but lacks the external floppy drive. So my only real option for getting software on the machine is over the serial port, which is a a bit annoying (and also precludes installing a new OS on it..) Anyone have any spares? Thanks, Josh From teoz at neo.rr.com Fri Feb 5 23:26:37 2010 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sat, 6 Feb 2010 00:26:37 -0500 Subject: Looking for: Dauphin DTR-1 Floppy References: Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Josh Dersch" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Friday, February 05, 2010 6:40 PM Subject: Looking for: Dauphin DTR-1 Floppy >A number of DTR-1s have been showing up on eBay recently (cheap) so I >decided to snag one. (I really wanted one when they were new but my >salary as a 15 year old prevented such a thing from happening...) > > As an additional aside, it's one of few devices that used the HP > Kittyhawk drive (a 1.3" 40mb drive). Quite a marvel of engineering in > 1993... > > Anyway, the specimen I obtained works fine (need to rebuild the battery) > but lacks the external floppy drive. So my only real option for getting > software on the machine is over the serial port, which is a a bit > annoying (and also precludes installing a new OS on it..) > > Anyone have any spares? > > Thanks, > Josh > No floppy drive here (I have a couple units with bad keyboards), but there is a site that shows the pinout for the port. From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Feb 5 23:35:12 2010 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 5 Feb 2010 21:35:12 -0800 Subject: Looking for: Dauphin DTR-1 Floppy In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I might have spares. The problem being I'm not sure where in the garage (aka the disaster area), the two boxes of DTR-1 stuff is. I think I have 4 systems, and some other stuff. It will be quite some time before I start digging back to that point. Zane At 3:40 PM -0800 2/5/10, Josh Dersch wrote: >A number of DTR-1s have been showing up on eBay recently (cheap) so >I decided to snag one. (I really wanted one when they were new but >my salary as a 15 year old prevented such a thing from happening...) > >As an additional aside, it's one of few devices that used the HP >Kittyhawk drive (a 1.3" 40mb drive). Quite a marvel of engineering >in 1993... > >Anyway, the specimen I obtained works fine (need to rebuild the >battery) but lacks the external floppy drive. So my only real >option for getting software on the machine is over the serial port, >which is a a bit annoying (and also precludes installing a new OS on >it..) > >Anyone have any spares? > >Thanks, >Josh -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Feb 6 00:12:51 2010 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Fri, 05 Feb 2010 23:12:51 -0700 Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 78, Issue 3 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B6D0863.6020305@jetnet.ab.ca> Tony Duell wrote: > This assumes you have the facilities to program the CPLD, the development > software _and somethign to run it on_. That is not always the case. I don't know, old PC's are a dime a dozen. Still TTL buffers is all you really need for I/O if you don't mind wasting the high order byte. > -tony > From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Feb 6 00:14:39 2010 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Fri, 05 Feb 2010 23:14:39 -0700 Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 78, Issue 3 In-Reply-To: <4B6C3E9A.17202.1980CF0@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4B6C03A6.22917.B1C4F8@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Feb 5, 10 11:40:22 am, <4B6C3E9A.17202.1980CF0@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4B6D08CF.1010105@jetnet.ab.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote: But there really is no good reason to use an 8255, a Z80 PIO, a 6820 > or even a 6522 in a new design today, other than for nostalgia's > sake. So what do you recomend? > --Chuck > > From cclist at sydex.com Sat Feb 6 01:14:08 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 05 Feb 2010 23:14:08 -0800 Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 78, Issue 3 In-Reply-To: <4B6D08CF.1010105@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4B6C03A6.22917.B1C4F8@cclist.sydex.com>, <4B6C3E9A.17202.1980CF0@cclist.sydex.com>, <4B6D08CF.1010105@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4B6CA640.2198.32CEF54@cclist.sydex.com> On 5 Feb 2010 at 23:14, Ben wrote: > Chuck Guzis wrote: > But there really is no good reason to use an 8255, a Z80 PIO, a 6820 > > or even a 6522 in a new design today, other than for nostalgia's > > sake. > > So what do you recomend? What do you need to do? Programmable logic can be configured to do whatever you need. --Chuck From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Sat Feb 6 03:59:29 2010 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Sat, 6 Feb 2010 10:59:29 +0100 (CET) Subject: hp 9153 floppy & disk In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 5 Feb 2010, Tony Duell wrote: > The one I have (actually an HP9154, which is the smae unit without the > floppy drive) uses the HP Nighthawk drives, which have a strange > interface on a 40 pin combined power and data cable. I seem to rember Sounds like the "standard" 20 MB HP drive as found in Vectra PCs and measurement equipment. I once had to replace the hard disk in a HP4972 network analyser and took one from a Vectra. The controller board for the Vectra (standard 8-bit full-length ISA card) has an onboard MC6809, on-board sector buffer, a BIOS etc. It's quite an intelligent card from the programmer's point of view (I've partially disassembled the BIOS), but lack further information. Would be nice to write a Linux driver for that board ;-) Christian From emu at e-bbes.com Sat Feb 6 04:45:28 2010 From: emu at e-bbes.com (e.stiebler) Date: Sat, 06 Feb 2010 03:45:28 -0700 Subject: hp 9153 floppy & disk In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B6D4848.5000008@e-bbes.com> Christian Corti wrote: > Sounds like the "standard" 20 MB HP drive as found in Vectra PCs and > measurement equipment. I once had to replace the hard disk in a HP4972 > network analyser and took one from a Vectra. The controller board for > the Vectra (standard 8-bit full-length ISA card) has an onboard MC6809, > on-board sector buffer, a BIOS etc. It's quite an intelligent card from > the programmer's point of view (I've partially disassembled the BIOS), > but lack further information. Would be nice to write a Linux driver for > that board ;-) So, they are basically MFM drives with a weird connector on them ? Any real product number ? From charlesleecourtney at yahoo.com Fri Feb 5 21:12:03 2010 From: charlesleecourtney at yahoo.com (Lee Courtney) Date: Fri, 5 Feb 2010 19:12:03 -0800 (PST) Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re=3A_Free_SGI_Onyx2_in_Link=F6ping_Sweden?= In-Reply-To: <20100204201236.GA30431@Update.UU.SE> References: <20100204201236.GA30431@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <676235.83200.qm@web35307.mail.mud.yahoo.com> >From http://www.nsc.liu.se/ ? Do you think http://www.it-ceum.com/ would be interested? Lee Courtney Menlo Park, CA 94025 ----- Original Message ---- From: Pontus Pihlgren To: cctech at classiccmp.org Sent: Thu, February 4, 2010 12:12:36 PM Subject: Free SGI Onyx2 in Link?ping Sweden Hi This is a longshot, if you can make it to link?ping with a truck within two weeks, I can probably hook you up with 4 racks worth of SGI Onyx2. /Pontus. From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Sat Feb 6 08:20:29 2010 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Sat, 6 Feb 2010 15:20:29 +0100 Subject: hp 9153 floppy & disk In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Namens Christian Corti > Verzonden: zaterdag 6 februari 2010 10:59 > Aan: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Onderwerp: Re: hp 9153 floppy & disk > > On Fri, 5 Feb 2010, Tony Duell wrote: > > The one I have (actually an HP9154, which is the smae unit > without the > > floppy drive) uses the HP Nighthawk drives, which have a strange > > interface on a 40 pin combined power and data cable. I seem > to rember > > Sounds like the "standard" 20 MB HP drive as found in Vectra > PCs and measurement equipment. I once had to replace the hard > disk in a HP4972 network analyser and took one from a Vectra. > The controller board for the Vectra (standard 8-bit > full-length ISA card) has an onboard MC6809, on-board sector > buffer, a BIOS etc. It's quite an intelligent card from the > programmer's point of view (I've partially disassembled the > BIOS), but lack further information. Would be nice to write a > Linux driver for that board ;-) > > Christian Witch Vectra do you mean ? The default Vectra discs I know (ES,ES12,CS VL2 before 1995) are standaard MFM or IDE. The (80286) ES(12)'s are using seagate's ST225 or ST255 (option)with a WD-controller, the VL2 (80486)is using standard IDE 40-200MB (PIO no DMA) the CS is also using a MFM drive 3.5inch. The 9153 disc uses a HP proprietary interface I think one of the manuals a the Hpmusuem discribes it. The biggest problem wiht the 9153 discdrives are the bearings, the turn motor doesn't have much torque so the disc are jammed very easily. Freeing the disc by hand sometimes frees them but not always. -Rik From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Sat Feb 6 08:35:10 2010 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Sat, 6 Feb 2010 15:35:10 +0100 Subject: hp 9153 floppy & disk In-Reply-To: <4B6D4848.5000008@e-bbes.com> References: <4B6D4848.5000008@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Namens e.stiebler > Verzonden: zaterdag 6 februari 2010 11:45 > Aan: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Onderwerp: Re: hp 9153 floppy & disk > > Christian Corti wrote: > > Sounds like the "standard" 20 MB HP drive as found in > Vectra PCs and > > measurement equipment. I once had to replace the hard disk > in a HP4972 > > network analyser and took one from a Vectra. The controller > board for > > the Vectra (standard 8-bit full-length ISA card) has an onboard > > MC6809, on-board sector buffer, a BIOS etc. It's quite an > intelligent > > card from the programmer's point of view (I've partially > disassembled > > the BIOS), but lack further information. Would be nice to write a > > Linux driver for that board ;-) > > So, they are basically MFM drives with a weird connector on them ? > > Any real product number ? 09153-96111 is the HP product number for the 10MB Winchester. -Rik From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Sat Feb 6 08:40:47 2010 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Sat, 6 Feb 2010 15:40:47 +0100 Subject: hp 9153 floppy & disk In-Reply-To: <4B6D4848.5000008@e-bbes.com> References: <4B6D4848.5000008@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Namens e.stiebler > Verzonden: zaterdag 6 februari 2010 11:45 > Aan: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Onderwerp: Re: hp 9153 floppy & disk > > Christian Corti wrote: > > Sounds like the "standard" 20 MB HP drive as found in > Vectra PCs and > > measurement equipment. I once had to replace the hard disk > in a HP4972 > > network analyser and took one from a Vectra. The controller > board for > > the Vectra (standard 8-bit full-length ISA card) has an onboard > > MC6809, on-board sector buffer, a BIOS etc. It's quite an > intelligent > > card from the programmer's point of view (I've partially > disassembled > > the BIOS), but lack further information. Would be nice to write a > > Linux driver for that board ;-) > > So, they are basically MFM drives with a weird connector on them ? > > Any real product number ? When you search the hpmuseum.net site you'll find the CE service manual with a blokdiagram in it. This describes a Adaptec harddisk controller and a bi-directional bus to the disc, witch indicates the use of some kind of sasi or scsi related bus. -Rik From rtellason at verizon.net Sat Feb 6 10:14:27 2010 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason, Sr.) Date: Sat, 06 Feb 2010 11:14:27 -0500 Subject: a work in progress, and why I haven't been around here much... Message-ID: <201002061114.27549.rtellason@verizon.net> Have a look here: http://mysite.verizon.net/rtellason/nancy.html and you'll see what's been keeping me occupied for the better part of the past year or so... The page is still a work in progress, I need to add some pictures at some point. The worst is over, and it's time for me to move forward, including plowing through a really absurd number of posts in this folder. One other thing I'll mention in passing, a new friend, also widowed, has an H-8 computer system to deal with, I told her that I knew just the place to find someone who would be interested in it. I have no details on it at the moment, though I've seen it. I also told her that just powering it up was probably *not* a good plan at this point since it's been sitting for a number of years unused... Any of you guys interested in it, feel free to contact me off-list. Onward... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sat Feb 6 10:44:09 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 6 Feb 2010 11:44:09 -0500 Subject: a work in progress, and why I haven't been around here much... In-Reply-To: <201002061114.27549.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <201002061114.27549.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: > and you'll see what's been keeping me occupied for the better part of the past > year or so... I am sorry for your loss. I can completely understand you dropping from view for a while, as there are things far more important than our old computers. -- Will From thomas.gardner at sbcglobal.net Sat Feb 6 11:27:43 2010 From: thomas.gardner at sbcglobal.net (Tom Gardner) Date: Sat, 6 Feb 2010 09:27:43 -0800 Subject: PLEASE CHANGE THE SUBJECT OF A THREAD (Was RE: cctalk Digest, Vol 78, Issue 3) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <035A8496B0D44DB59D3E10B31D3CFEB9@tegp4> See what I mean (from Issue 10) > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: cctech Digest, Vol 78, Issue 3 (Tony Duell) > 2. Re: cctech Digest, Vol 78, Issue 3 (Chuck Guzis) > 4. Re: cctech Digest, Vol 78, Issue 3 (Dave McGuire) > 5. Re: cctech Digest, Vol 78, Issue 3 (Chuck Guzis) > 6. Re: cctech Digest, Vol 78, Issue 3 (Dave McGuire) > 7. Re: cctech Digest, Vol 78, Issue 3 (Ethan Dicks) > 8. Re: cctech Digest, Vol 78, Issue 3 (Chuck Guzis) > 9. Re: cctech Digest, Vol 78, Issue 3 (Ben) > 10. Re: cctech Digest, Vol 78, Issue 3 (allison) > 11. Re: cctech Digest, Vol 78, Issue 3 (Tony Duell) > 13. Re: cctech Digest, Vol 78, Issue 3 (Tony Duell) > 14. Re: cctech Digest, Vol 78, Issue 3 (Dave McGuire) > 15. Re: cctech Digest, Vol 78, Issue 3 (Dave McGuire) > 16. Re: cctech Digest, Vol 78, Issue 3 (Dave McGuire) > 17. Re: cctech Digest, Vol 78, Issue 3 (Chuck Guzis) > 18. Re: cctech Digest, Vol 78, Issue 3 (Chuck Guzis) > 19. Re: cctech Digest, Vol 78, Issue 3 (Dave McGuire) > 20. Re: cctech Digest, Vol 78, Issue 3 (Chuck Guzis) > 21. Re: cctech Digest, Vol 78, Issue 3 (Dave McGuire) > 23. Re: cctech Digest, Vol 78, Issue 3 (Ethan Dicks) > 24. Re: cctech Digest, Vol 78, Issue 3 (Chuck Guzis) > 25. Re: cctech Digest, Vol 78, Issue 3 (Dave McGuire) > 29. Re: cctech Digest, Vol 78, Issue 3 (Ben) Tom From feedle at feedle.net Sat Feb 6 11:57:07 2010 From: feedle at feedle.net (C. Sullivan) Date: Sat, 6 Feb 2010 09:57:07 -0800 Subject: PLEASE CHANGE THE SUBJECT OF A THREAD (Was RE: cctalk Digest, Vol 78, Issue 3) In-Reply-To: <035A8496B0D44DB59D3E10B31D3CFEB9@tegp4> References: <035A8496B0D44DB59D3E10B31D3CFEB9@tegp4> Message-ID: On Feb 6, 2010, at 9:27 AM, Tom Gardner wrote: > > See what I mean (from Issue 10) There is only one thing more annoying than a mailbox full of "RE: cctalk Digest..." messages. And that's people complaining about it. From IanK at vulcan.com Sat Feb 6 12:07:50 2010 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Sat, 6 Feb 2010 10:07:50 -0800 Subject: a work in progress, and why I haven't been around here much... In-Reply-To: <201002061114.27549.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <201002061114.27549.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: Condolences, Roy -- Ian ________________________________________ From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Roy J. Tellason, Sr. [rtellason at verizon.net] Sent: Saturday, February 06, 2010 8:14 AM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: a work in progress, and why I haven't been around here much... Have a look here: http://mysite.verizon.net/rtellason/nancy.html and you'll see what's been keeping me occupied for the better part of the past year or so... The page is still a work in progress, I need to add some pictures at some point. The worst is over, and it's time for me to move forward, including plowing through a really absurd number of posts in this folder. One other thing I'll mention in passing, a new friend, also widowed, has an H-8 computer system to deal with, I told her that I knew just the place to find someone who would be interested in it. I have no details on it at the moment, though I've seen it. I also told her that just powering it up was probably *not* a good plan at this point since it's been sitting for a number of years unused... Any of you guys interested in it, feel free to contact me off-list. Onward... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Feb 6 05:41:22 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 6 Feb 2010 11:41:22 +0000 (GMT) Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 78, Issue 3 In-Reply-To: <4B6C3E9A.17202.1980CF0@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Feb 5, 10 03:51:54 pm Message-ID: > Quite a few 8-bit x80 micros used them them for various purposes > (yes, even Z80 systems); The 5150 BIOS refers to an 8255 in the I must have a strange colletion then. I can only think of 2 or 3 machines I own that contain 8255s. > But there really is no good reason to use an 8255, a Z80 PIO, a 6820 > or even a 6522 in a new design today, other than for nostalgia's > sake. I can think of many reasons : You have the chip in stock ('new design' doe not preculuse it being a one-off); Compatibility with existing hardware or software (then if the design doesn't work you know to look elserwhree for the fualt); It takes less time to use the chip than to design a replacement; And many more. There;s no reason why ytou have to use anything other than 7400s, of course... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Feb 6 05:42:50 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 6 Feb 2010 11:42:50 +0000 (GMT) Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 78, Issue 3 In-Reply-To: <4B6C4018.5886.19DE1DB@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Feb 5, 10 03:58:16 pm Message-ID: > > On 5 Feb 2010 at 23:15, Tony Duell wrote: > > > This assumes you have the facilities to program the CPLD, the > > development software _and somethign to run it on_. That is not always > > the case. > > Both Xilinx and Altera offer free development software for their That's free as in beer, not as in speech. And my experience is that I spend far too long getting software to work on my hardware if I don't have the soruces. > devices. And Windows or Linux PCs aren't exactly uncommon. That is not uiversally true. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Feb 6 05:59:48 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 6 Feb 2010 11:59:48 +0000 (GMT) Subject: hp 9153 floppy & disk In-Reply-To: <4B6CB289.8020702@e-bbes.com> from "e.stiebler" at Feb 5, 10 05:06:33 pm Message-ID: > > Tony Duell wrote: > > The one I have (actually an HP9154, which is the smae unit without the > > floppy drive) uses the HP Nighthawk drives, which have a strange > > interface on a 40 pin combined power and data cable. I seem to rember > > there was an earlier unit that used a more standard drive. > > But whatever was in it (I was actually wondering about the connector) > is not available anymore ... Actually, having re-read the HP CE manuals on hpmuseum.net, I think I was mistaken. All 9153s and 9154s used the Nighthawk drive. It's the one part that's common to them (the PSU, controller board and floppy drive did change). I have a later one, a 9154B. The controller board in that has a large ASIC that cotnains the floppy and hard disk cotnrollers, etc. The -A models have larger controller board stuffed with chips, inclduing a couple of Adaptec chips for the hard disk controller. The Nighthawk is a curious drive. It uses a stepper motor for positioning, but it microsteps it (there's a dual DAC on one of the drive PCBs with an ADC for postion feedback). The interface is raw data to/from the reaad/write chain (clock separation, ID location, etc is done on the controller board, not the drive) but with an 8 bit data bus and strobes to read th ADC, write to the DAC, etc. I haev some detials, but not enough to make a replacement drive. The Nighthawk was used in some models of Vectra from what I've read. I beleive you could reformat a Vectra drive to use in a 9153/4 but not the reverse. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Feb 6 06:02:37 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 6 Feb 2010 12:02:37 +0000 (GMT) Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 78, Issue 3 In-Reply-To: <4B6D0863.6020305@jetnet.ab.ca> from "Ben" at Feb 5, 10 11:12:51 pm Message-ID: > > I don't know, old PC's are a dime a dozen. Still TTL buffers is all you > really > need for I/O if you don't mind wasting the high order byte. OK, I actuially have a US dime somwhere. Please tell me where I can exchange it for 12 PCs capable of running FPGA or CPLD development software. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Feb 6 06:06:42 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 6 Feb 2010 12:06:42 +0000 (GMT) Subject: hp 9153 floppy & disk In-Reply-To: from "Christian Corti" at Feb 6, 10 10:59:29 am Message-ID: > > On Fri, 5 Feb 2010, Tony Duell wrote: > > The one I have (actually an HP9154, which is the smae unit without the > > floppy drive) uses the HP Nighthawk drives, which have a strange > > interface on a 40 pin combined power and data cable. I seem to rember > > Sounds like the "standard" 20 MB HP drive as found in Vectra PCs and It is. They came in 1)BM and 20MB versions I beleive. > measurement equipment. I once had to replace the hard disk in a HP4972 > network analyser and took one from a Vectra. The controller board for the > Vectra (standard 8-bit full-length ISA card) has an onboard MC6809, > on-board sector buffer, a BIOS etc. It's quite an intelligent card from That sounds very like a 9153/4 controllr, The board in my 9154B cotnaisn a 68B09, a Medusa HPIB chip, a large HP ASIC (disk controllers and glue logic) ROM and RAM. What is the disk controller on the Vectra board? > the programmer's point of view (I've partially disassembled the BIOS), but > lack further information. Would be nice to write a Linux driver for that > board ;-) Hp wouldn't have beeb so insane as to have haev the 6809/controller system respond to SS/80 commands from the PC, would they? It would make sort-of sense... -tony From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Feb 6 13:05:18 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 6 Feb 2010 14:05:18 -0500 Subject: Looking for: Dauphin DTR-1 Floppy In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <414CDB22-46CD-4655-BBA9-EB3932E81DA9@neurotica.com> On Feb 5, 2010, at 6:40 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > As an additional aside, it's one of few devices that used the HP > Kittyhawk drive (a 1.3" 40mb drive). Quite a marvel of engineering > in 1993... I have several of the 20MB Kittyhawks and a single 40MB unit. I've done a bit of hacking on them with home-brew SBCs. They are a little weird in some ways, but they're really neat, I like them. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Feb 6 13:22:37 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 6 Feb 2010 14:22:37 -0500 Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 78, Issue 3 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <73F931DC-E757-4CAF-9940-C708D37132A4@neurotica.com> On Feb 6, 2010, at 6:42 AM, Tony Duell wrote: >> devices. And Windows or Linux PCs aren't exactly uncommon. > > That is not uiversally true. Walk around the neighborhood on trash day, man. Half of my neighbors are running computers that the other half of my neighbors threw out because they're too clueless to properly maintain and/or repair them when they get all crapped up with viruses and such. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Sat Feb 6 12:37:32 2010 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Sat, 6 Feb 2010 18:37:32 -0000 Subject: a work in progress, and why I haven't been around here much... References: <201002061114.27549.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <01a301caa765$3d343e90$fa0d5f0a@user8459cef6fa> A beautiful page. I hope that someday I am lucky enough to meet someone like her. Sorry for your loss. Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk ----- Original Message ----- From: "Roy J. Tellason, Sr." To: Sent: Saturday, February 06, 2010 4:14 PM Subject: a work in progress, and why I haven't been around here much... > Have a look here: > > http://mysite.verizon.net/rtellason/nancy.html > > and you'll see what's been keeping me occupied for the better part of the past > year or so... > > The page is still a work in progress, I need to add some pictures at some > point. > > The worst is over, and it's time for me to move forward, including plowing > through a really absurd number of posts in this folder. > > One other thing I'll mention in passing, a new friend, also widowed, has an > H-8 computer system to deal with, I told her that I knew just the place to > find someone who would be interested in it. I have no details on it at the > moment, though I've seen it. I also told her that just powering it up was > probably *not* a good plan at this point since it's been sitting for a number > of years unused... Any of you guys interested in it, feel free to contact > me off-list. > > Onward... > > -- > Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and > ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can > be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" > - > Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James > M Dakin From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Sat Feb 6 13:53:11 2010 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Sat, 6 Feb 2010 20:53:11 +0100 Subject: hp 9153 floppy & disk In-Reply-To: References: <4B6CB289.8020702@e-bbes.com> from "e.stiebler" at Feb 5, 10 05:06:33 pm Message-ID: > > Tony Duell wrote: > The Nighthawk was used in some models of Vectra from what > I've read. I beleive you could reformat a Vectra drive to use > in a 9153/4 but not the reverse. > > -tony Witch Vectra models ? I've two ES's the second version of the Vectra, they have a MFM disc one has a ST225 (20MB) the other one a ST 255 (40MB). I cann't find any refence to of using a non MFM inside a Vectra. You could use a HP 915X A/B external because the Vectra had a HP-IB bus. I can't remember ever seen a Nighthawk inside a Vectra (I worked for a firm who selled HP, for a few years at the end of the eighties) -Rik From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sat Feb 6 14:43:17 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 6 Feb 2010 15:43:17 -0500 Subject: Kittyhawk drives (was Re: Looking for: Dauphin DTR-1 Floppy) Message-ID: On Sat, Feb 6, 2010 at 2:05 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On Feb 5, 2010, at 6:40 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: >> >> As an additional aside, it's one of few devices that used the HP Kittyhawk >> drive (a 1.3" 40mb drive). ?Quite a marvel of engineering in 1993... > > ?I have several of the 20MB Kittyhawks and a single 40MB unit. I have a couple of 20MB Kittyhawks. The place was out of stock on 40MB units when I found them. >?I've done a > bit of hacking on them with home-brew SBCs. ?They are a little weird in some > ways, but they're really neat, I like them. Yep. I hooked mine to an IDE-64. Quite portable. -ethan From cclist at sydex.com Sat Feb 6 15:18:22 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 06 Feb 2010 13:18:22 -0800 Subject: Programmable devices, was: cctech Digest, Vol 78, Issue 3 In-Reply-To: References: <4B6C4018.5886.19DE1DB@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Feb 5, 10 03:58:16 pm, Message-ID: <4B6D6C1E.5901.E5AA8E@cclist.sydex.com> On 6 Feb 2010 at 11:42, Tony Duell wrote: > That's free as in beer, not as in speech. And my experience is that I > spend far too long getting software to work on my hardware if I don't > have the soruces. > > > devices. And Windows or Linux PCs aren't exactly uncommon. > > That is not uiversally true. I don't even know how to respond to this one on my 2-year old, freecycled P4 system that I'm sitting in front of. Doubtless it contains some devices that were developed using the "free beer" tools, but if you don't have the source, it must not be any good. So I won't bother. --Chuck From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Sat Feb 6 16:05:46 2010 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Sat, 6 Feb 2010 22:05:46 +0000 (GMT) Subject: The Virtual Revolution (History Of The Internet) Message-ID: <727777.5434.qm@web23405.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Hi all, I wasn't going to send out an email about this, but I thought the 2nd episode was just as good as the first one, so here I am :) In short, the programme (airing BBC2, UK, around 8:15pm Saturdays) The Virtual Revolution looks at the history of the internet (US Military, ARPAnet, The Well etc.) and it's influence on modern life (hackers, terrorists, social networking etc.). The official site can be found here: http://www.bbc.co.uk/virtualrevolution/ Video's of some of the interviewees (including Tim Berners-Lee and Peter Thiel) can be found here: http://www.bbc.co.uk/virtualrevolution/interviews.shtml A whole host of computers have been seen (for a few seconds) on the programme, including an Altair 8080 and a PDP-10. Some short clips of the programme can be found on YouTube. All of episode 2 can be found on BBC IPlayer here (for the next 7 days only): http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00qsbvv/The_Virtual_Revolution_Enemy_of_the_State/ The whole show is 654MB (about 55 minutes long), if you wish to download it. Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Feb 6 19:18:16 2010 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Sat, 06 Feb 2010 18:18:16 -0700 Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 78, Issue 3 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B6E14D8.9050602@jetnet.ab.ca> Tony Duell wrote: >> >> I don't know, old PC's are a dime a dozen. Still TTL buffers is all you >> really >> need for I/O if you don't mind wasting the high order byte. > > OK, I actuially have a US dime somwhere. Please tell me where I can > exchange it for 12 PCs capable of running FPGA or CPLD development software. > > -tony > Atmel software is still free the last time I looked, running on a modest windows PC. PC's ... see your local dumpster. http://www.atmel.com/dyn/products/tools.asp?family_id=653 Ben. PS. They also sell 8051 products for the 'real' programmer. :) From halarewich at gmail.com Sat Feb 6 19:51:17 2010 From: halarewich at gmail.com (Chris Halarewich) Date: Sat, 6 Feb 2010 17:51:17 -0800 Subject: The Virtual Revolution (History Of The Internet) In-Reply-To: <727777.5434.qm@web23405.mail.ird.yahoo.com> References: <727777.5434.qm@web23405.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6d6501091002061751o6b80f600g2187d591df9674e2@mail.gmail.com> to bad the download site is onlt avail to people in the uk On 2/6/10, Andrew Burton wrote: > > > Hi all, > > I wasn't going to send out an email about this, but I thought the 2nd > episode was just as good as the first one, so here I am :) > > In short, the programme (airing BBC2, UK, around 8:15pm Saturdays) The > Virtual Revolution looks at the history of the internet (US Military, > ARPAnet, The Well etc.) and it's influence on modern life (hackers, > terrorists, social networking etc.). > The official site can be found here: > > http://www.bbc.co.uk/virtualrevolution/ > > Video's of some of the interviewees (including Tim Berners-Lee and Peter > Thiel) can be found here: > > http://www.bbc.co.uk/virtualrevolution/interviews.shtml > > > A whole host of computers have been seen (for a few seconds) on the > programme, including an Altair 8080 and a PDP-10. > Some short clips of the programme can be found on YouTube. All of episode 2 > can be found on BBC IPlayer here (for the next 7 days only): > > > http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00qsbvv/The_Virtual_Revolution_Enemy_of_the_State/ > > The whole show is 654MB (about 55 minutes long), if you wish to download > it. > > > Regards, > Andrew B > aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk > > > From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Feb 6 20:15:23 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 6 Feb 2010 21:15:23 -0500 Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 78, Issue 3 In-Reply-To: <4B6E14D8.9050602@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4B6E14D8.9050602@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Feb 6, 2010, at 8:18 PM, Ben wrote: >>> I don't know, old PC's are a dime a dozen. Still TTL buffers is >>> all you >>> really >>> need for I/O if you don't mind wasting the high order byte. >> >> OK, I actuially have a US dime somwhere. Please tell me where I can >> exchange it for 12 PCs capable of running FPGA or CPLD >> development software. >> >> -tony >> > > Atmel software is still free the last time I looked, running on a > modest > windows PC. PC's ... see your local dumpster. > > http://www.atmel.com/dyn/products/tools.asp?family_id=653 > Ben. > PS. They also sell 8051 products for the 'real' programmer. :) The best 8051 stuff is free, and has been for a long time. FYI. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From sethm at loomcom.com Sat Feb 6 22:26:27 2010 From: sethm at loomcom.com (Seth Morabito) Date: Sun, 7 Feb 2010 04:26:27 +0000 Subject: Moving "Sale". Lots of free stuff for pickup, SF Bay Area Message-ID: <20100207042627.GA1571@mail.loomcom.com> Folks, I'm moving in a month, and I desperately need to unload a lot of stuff. All items are located in Union City, California (Just north of Fremont, south of Hayward, in the San Francisco Bay Area). I'm very sorry, but I will not even *consider* shipping anything. I just don't have the time, I'm in full-on crunch mode at work as well as prepping for the move. All of this stuff is PICK-UP ONLY, first-come, first-serve. Most stuff is free, some things have a very small price. Prices are firm. All items are listed here: http://www.loomcom.com/movingsale/ If an item is claimed, I will remove it from the list as soon as I can get to it!! Quick-view list of what's on the page, for the impatient: * Macintosh IIsi * Apple CD 300 * PowerBook 1400c * Apple ImageWriter II * NeXTstation Turbo Color * DECwriter LA12 (Correspondant) Ribbons * DECstation 5000/240 * DECstation 5000/133 * DECstation 3100 * VAXstation 3100 m76 * SGI Indigo 2 Extreme * SGI Indy * AT&T Unix PC * TI 99/4a and box of software * TI Silent 700 Model 780 * TI Silent 700 Model 745 * Atari 800 * Panasonic KX-D4929 Printing Terminal * TRS-80 PT-210 Thermal Printing Terminal * TRS-80 Model 100 Laptop I may make another page for "Part II" if part 1 goes well. Whatever's not claimed will end up going to Weird Stuff Warehouse in Sunnyvale. -Seth From dgahling at hotmail.com Sun Feb 7 09:41:47 2010 From: dgahling at hotmail.com (Dan Gahlinger) Date: Sun, 7 Feb 2010 10:41:47 -0500 Subject: Moving "Sale". Lots of free stuff for pickup, SF Bay Area In-Reply-To: <20100207042627.GA1571@mail.loomcom.com> References: <20100207042627.GA1571@mail.loomcom.com> Message-ID: Anyone on this list considering picking some of this stuff up? maybe also getting the DS5000/240 for me and shipping it up to Canada? (I'd pay of course) unfortunately there's no way from Canada for me to get all the way down there just to pick up one piece :( lots of other wonderful stuff in there too... Dan. > Date: Sun, 7 Feb 2010 04:26:27 +0000 > From: sethm at loomcom.com > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Moving "Sale". Lots of free stuff for pickup, SF Bay Area > > Folks, > > I'm moving in a month, and I desperately need to unload a lot of stuff. > > All items are located in Union City, California (Just north of Fremont, south > of Hayward, in the San Francisco Bay Area). I'm very sorry, but I will not even > *consider* shipping anything. I just don't have the time, I'm in full-on crunch > mode at work as well as prepping for the move. All of this stuff is PICK-UP > ONLY, first-come, first-serve. > > Most stuff is free, some things have a very small price. Prices are firm. > > All items are listed here: > > http://www.loomcom.com/movingsale/ > > If an item is claimed, I will remove it from the list as soon as I can get to > it!! > > Quick-view list of what's on the page, for the impatient: > > * Macintosh IIsi > * Apple CD 300 > * PowerBook 1400c > * Apple ImageWriter II > * NeXTstation Turbo Color > * DECwriter LA12 (Correspondant) Ribbons > * DECstation 5000/240 > * DECstation 5000/133 > * DECstation 3100 > * VAXstation 3100 m76 > * SGI Indigo 2 Extreme > * SGI Indy > * AT&T Unix PC > * TI 99/4a and box of software > * TI Silent 700 Model 780 > * TI Silent 700 Model 745 > * Atari 800 > * Panasonic KX-D4929 Printing Terminal > * TRS-80 PT-210 Thermal Printing Terminal > * TRS-80 Model 100 Laptop > > I may make another page for "Part II" if part 1 goes well. > > Whatever's not claimed will end up going to Weird Stuff Warehouse in Sunnyvale. > > -Seth _________________________________________________________________ From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Feb 7 12:23:09 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 7 Feb 2010 18:23:09 +0000 (GMT) Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 78, Issue 3 In-Reply-To: <4B6E14D8.9050602@jetnet.ab.ca> from "Ben" at Feb 6, 10 06:18:16 pm Message-ID: > > Tony Duell wrote: > >> > >> I don't know, old PC's are a dime a dozen. Still TTL buffers is all you > >> really > >> need for I/O if you don't mind wasting the high order byte. > > > > OK, I actuially have a US dime somwhere. Please tell me where I can > > exchange it for 12 PCs capable of running FPGA or CPLD development software. > > > > -tony > > > > Atmel software is still free the last time I looked, running on a modest > windows PC. PC's ... see your local dumpster. As far as I know, you do not live in London (England). So I can't see how you can tell me that PCs are available in the 'local dumpster'/ FWIW, dumpster diving is illegal in the UK. THat however, is secondary to the fact that we have a WEEE direcrtive that means we have to recycle electronic equipment and not throw it in the skip/dumpster. And I have _never_ seen a PC in a skip/dumpster in London (and I am certainly not going to trespass on various company sites to see if I can steal one). Also, unless I missed something, Windows isn't free. I I doubt that if I found a junked PC that happeend to have a runnable copy of Windows on the hard drivce the ntat would count as a valid Windows license. I don't particulalry care for Windows, or any Microsoft product for that matter, but that doesn't give me the right to pirate them. -tony From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Feb 7 12:37:23 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 7 Feb 2010 13:37:23 -0500 Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 78, Issue 3 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Feb 7, 2010, at 1:23 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >>>> I don't know, old PC's are a dime a dozen. Still TTL buffers is >>>> all you >>>> really >>>> need for I/O if you don't mind wasting the high order byte. >>> >>> OK, I actuially have a US dime somwhere. Please tell me where I can >>> exchange it for 12 PCs capable of running FPGA or CPLD >>> development software. >> >> Atmel software is still free the last time I looked, running on a >> modest >> windows PC. PC's ... see your local dumpster. > > As far as I know, you do not live in London (England). So I can't > see how > you can tell me that PCs are available in the 'local dumpster'/ > > FWIW, dumpster diving is illegal in the UK. That's...very weird to me. > THat however, is secondary to > the fact that we have a WEEE direcrtive that means we have to recycle > electronic equipment and not throw it in the skip/dumpster. And I have > _never_ seen a PC in a skip/dumpster in London (and I am certainly not > going to trespass on various company sites to see if I can steal one). I would. :) But I see PeeCees on the curb quite often. > Also, unless I missed something, Windows isn't free. I I doubt that > if I > found a junked PC that happeend to have a runnable copy of Windows > on the > hard drivce the ntat would count as a valid Windows license. I don't > particulalry care for Windows, or any Microsoft product for that > matter, > but that doesn't give me the right to pirate them. So don't run Windows. FPGA/CPLD/PAL software runs on other platforms. Indeed, large-scale chip design in the real world isn't typically done under Windows. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From trixter at oldskool.org Sun Feb 7 12:42:59 2010 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sun, 07 Feb 2010 12:42:59 -0600 Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 78, Issue 3 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B6F09B3.2020407@oldskool.org> On 2/7/2010 12:37 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > I would. :) But I see PeeCees on the curb quite often. Where are you located? -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From pcw at mesanet.com Sun Feb 7 12:41:09 2010 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Sun, 7 Feb 2010 10:41:09 -0800 (PST) Subject: PCs on the curbside In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, 7 Feb 2010, Dave McGuire wrote: > So don't run Windows. FPGA/CPLD/PAL software runs on other platforms. > Indeed, large-scale chip design in the real world isn't typically done under > Windows. > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire > Port Charlotte, FL Indeed, the Xilinx webpack software runs fine on Linux Peter Wallace From trixter at oldskool.org Sun Feb 7 12:54:44 2010 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sun, 07 Feb 2010 12:54:44 -0600 Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 78, Issue 3 In-Reply-To: <4B6F09B3.2020407@oldskool.org> References: <4B6F09B3.2020407@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <4B6F0C74.70807@oldskool.org> On 2/7/2010 12:42 PM, Jim Leonard wrote: > On 2/7/2010 12:37 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: >> I would. :) But I see PeeCees on the curb quite often. > > Where are you located? Never mind: Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL I am located in Naperville, IL and I see a PC on the curb about once every two years. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From cclist at sydex.com Sun Feb 7 12:58:18 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 07 Feb 2010 10:58:18 -0800 Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 78, Issue 3 In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: <4B6E9CCA.10447.A6C7CD@cclist.sydex.com> On 7 Feb 2010 at 13:37, Dave McGuire wrote: > > THat however, is secondary to > > the fact that we have a WEEE direcrtive that means we have to > > recycle electronic equipment and not throw it in the skip/dumpster. > > And I have _never_ seen a PC in a skip/dumpster in London (and I am > > certainly not going to trespass on various company sites to see if I > > can steal one). > > I would. :) But I see PeeCees on the curb quite often. I don't imagine that the UK has any sort of computer reuse/donation organizations, either. So the moment you quit using a PC, the police show up on your doorstep to make sure that you won't give/sell the system to anyone else? As far as I know, the UK only requires that a PC be licensed if it's used to view television content. Or has that changed? And how can they tell? The system that I'm typing this on was gained via the local Freecycle network. Originally it came in a 4U rackmount case, but that's been repurposed for a different ssystem. --Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Feb 7 13:06:59 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 7 Feb 2010 14:06:59 -0500 Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 78, Issue 3 In-Reply-To: <4B6F0C74.70807@oldskool.org> References: <4B6F09B3.2020407@oldskool.org> <4B6F0C74.70807@oldskool.org> Message-ID: On Feb 7, 2010, at 1:54 PM, Jim Leonard wrote: >>> I would. :) But I see PeeCees on the curb quite often. >> >> Where are you located? > > Never mind: > > Dave McGuire > Port Charlotte, FL > > I am located in Naperville, IL and I see a PC on the curb about > once every two years. Granted I see them a lot less nowadays, now that everyone is broke...more people are fixing (well, paying to have someone else fix) their machines rather than just throwing them in the garbage when Windows shits the bed. But I do still see them about every other month or so, and usually grab them. -Dave > -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Feb 7 13:23:58 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 7 Feb 2010 19:23:58 +0000 (GMT) Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 78, Issue 3 In-Reply-To: from "Dave McGuire" at Feb 7, 10 01:37:23 pm Message-ID: > > As far as I know, you do not live in London (England). So I can't > > see how > > you can tell me that PCs are available in the 'local dumpster'/ > > > > FWIW, dumpster diving is illegal in the UK. > > That's...very weird to me. I beleive (from what I've read) that it's illegal to dumpster-dive if the dumpster is on private land in the States. I beleive that in the UK, stuff in a skip/dumpster is deemed to belong to whoever owns the dumpster, and that it's technically stealing to remove it (whether it is stealing to remove it if you put it there in the first place -- e.g. if you threw somethign out that you didn't mean to -- I don't know. But knowing our crazy laws I could well believe it is). I don't know if anyone has ever been convicted under this law, and I am darn sure that dumpster diving goes on with or without permision. But if there are no PCs in the skips, it doesn't matter whether it's legal to take them. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Feb 7 13:29:22 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 7 Feb 2010 19:29:22 +0000 (GMT) Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 78, Issue 3 In-Reply-To: <4B6E9CCA.10447.A6C7CD@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Feb 7, 10 10:58:18 am Message-ID: > > On 7 Feb 2010 at 13:37, Dave McGuire wrote: > > > > THat however, is secondary to > > > the fact that we have a WEEE direcrtive that means we have to > > > recycle electronic equipment and not throw it in the skip/dumpster. > > > And I have _never_ seen a PC in a skip/dumpster in London (and I am > > > certainly not going to trespass on various company sites to see if I > > > can steal one). > > > > I would. :) But I see PeeCees on the curb quite often. > > I don't imagine that the UK has any sort of computer reuse/donation > organizations, either. So the moment you quit using a PC, the police Charity shops (the equivalent of thrift stores) don't normally accept and sell mains-powered electrical devies, because there's another silly law that sats that all electrical devices sold in that way have to be safety-tested by a suitable elecrrician. _Occasionally_ the shops break that rule (which is how I got my Amiga 500) or sell wall-wart powered devices without the PSU (I got a nice Acorn Atom that way). > show up on your doorstep to make sure that you won't give/sell the As far as I know there's nothing to stop people giving or selling PCs to friends.. But my friends never seem to have old PCs... > system to anyone else? As far as I know, the UK only requires that a > PC be licensed if it's used to view television content. Or has that > changed? And how can they tell? That has nothing to do with it. > > The system that I'm typing this on was gained via the local Freecycle > network. Originally it came in a 4U rackmount case, but that's been > repurposed for a different ssystem. We do have freecycle over here, but I've never seen any desirable computer stuff listed on it locally. -tony From arcarlini at iee.org Sun Feb 7 13:37:41 2010 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Sun, 7 Feb 2010 19:37:41 -0000 Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 78, Issue 3 In-Reply-To: <4B6E9CCA.10447.A6C7CD@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4EAC59415E584083A435637C481C7648@ANTONIOPC> > I don't imagine that the UK has any sort of computer reuse/donation > organizations, either. So the moment you quit using a PC, the police > show up on your doorstep to make sure that you won't give/sell the > system to anyone else? I don't think I've ever seen a PC out with the garbage: they almost certainly wouldn't be accepted. You get to take them to the tip or give them away. You could hang around the tip and hope, but you'd have to not fall foul of some arbitrary rules (you certainly cannot take stuff away ... so you'd have to persuade someone to give you their PC right out of the car boot). > As far as I know, the UK only requires that a > PC be licensed if it's used to view television content. Or has that > changed? And how can they tell? I assume this is still tongue firmly in cheek. If not, then nothing is licenced. If you purchase anything that is on the list of "might be a TV" (such a a graphics card with TV Out) the retailer takes your name and address. If the TV Licensing folks don't find that combination on their database they send you a letter. If you don't reply they send you a letter telling you that they'll show up on the doorstep. If you happen to have purchased the item over the web and had it delivered to your work address, they'll show up at your work address. If you happen to be out (because, maybe it's lunchtime!), they'll leave you a note saying (essentially) "See, we *did* call" and you never hear from them again. Oh, and you only need a licence to view content "live" (any contents, not just BBC or even any UK channels, satellite stuff too ...) on any device (TV, PC, phone, maybe even your fillings if you happen to be an oddball synaesthete). Antonio From arcarlini at iee.org Sun Feb 7 13:41:20 2010 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Sun, 7 Feb 2010 19:41:20 -0000 Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 78, Issue 3 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > I don't know if anyone has ever been convicted under this > law, and I am > darn sure that dumpster diving goes on with or without > permision. But if > there are no PCs in the skips, it doesn't matter whether it's > legal to > take them. Given WEEE regs, companies are required to "properly dispose of" all electrical equipment. These days we have a company come round specifically to collect WEEE stuff (some of which can be quite big at times :-)). Before that we were only allowed to put electrical stuff in a skip when we'd contaced the people who take the skip away to make sure that they were doing the right things with WEEE (or, more likely, to make sure that we had the right paperwork). So intercepting stuff if you are on the outside is AFAICT much harder than it used to be if not downright impossible. Antonio From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Feb 7 13:50:54 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 7 Feb 2010 14:50:54 -0500 Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 78, Issue 3 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Feb 7, 2010, at 2:23 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >>> As far as I know, you do not live in London (England). So I can't >>> see how >>> you can tell me that PCs are available in the 'local dumpster'/ >>> >>> FWIW, dumpster diving is illegal in the UK. >> >> That's...very weird to me. > > I beleive (from what I've read) that it's illegal to dumpster-dive > if the > dumpster is on private land in the States. I think it "sort of" is...if it is in fact illegal, it's one of those laws that's never enforced. Everyone dumpster-dives. > I don't know if anyone has ever been convicted under this law, and > I am > darn sure that dumpster diving goes on with or without permision. > But if > there are no PCs in the skips, it doesn't matter whether it's legal to > take them. Indeed. And yes, it does go on all the time, at least around here. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From rogpugh at mac.com Sun Feb 7 14:31:28 2010 From: rogpugh at mac.com (Roger Pugh) Date: Sun, 07 Feb 2010 20:31:28 +0000 Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 78, Issue 3 or free computers in the rubbish/trash In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B6F2320.1070004@mac.com> > > I beleive that in the UK, stuff in a skip/dumpster is deemed to belong to > whoever owns the dumpster, and that it's technically stealing to remove > it (whether it is stealing to remove it if you put it there in the first > place -- e.g. if you threw somethign out that you didn't mean to -- I > don't know. But knowing our crazy laws I could well believe it is). Well dont tell West Sussex county council where i get lots of tech junk... i.e. Crawley recycling depot, its just sitting there in metal cages and noone seems bothered it you take a bit. Two weeks ago i found a nice 1970's Bang Olufsen Stereo.. Amstrads, Sun, junk generic PC's alsorts. I suspect a lot of businesses near there (London Gatwick Airport is 2 miles away) drop off there excess weee stuff there. Rog From keithvz at verizon.net Sun Feb 7 15:19:43 2010 From: keithvz at verizon.net (KeithM) Date: Sun, 07 Feb 2010 16:19:43 -0500 Subject: PCs on the curbside In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B6F2E6F.9020903@verizon.net> Peter C. Wallace wrote: > Indeed, the Xilinx webpack software runs fine on Linux > > Peter Wallace > Yeah, it works pretty good. I was surprised that it installs natively on many different flavors on linux. There are, of course, some gotchas, like recognizing on install into CentOS to disable the Security-Enhanced Linux protections. And the usb drivers for programming boards directly aren't supported(read: don't work) on anything but a couple different versions (like $$$ version of RHEL5,4). So you have to mess with libusb, fxload, and a few other things. Luckily, there is enough community support/forums for the common flavors to get things working. I installed it on Ubuntu 9.10 without (major) issue. Keith From vern4wright at yahoo.com Sun Feb 7 15:22:52 2010 From: vern4wright at yahoo.com (Vernon Wright) Date: Sun, 7 Feb 2010 13:22:52 -0800 (PST) Subject: The Virtual Revolution (History Of The Internet) In-Reply-To: <6d6501091002061751o6b80f600g2187d591df9674e2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <672934.36159.qm@web65508.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> But the unedited video interviews are available in the accursed quicktime format. And a little cleverness ought to allow you to save them. I just watched a few minutes of the Barlow interview. Regards, Vern Wright --- On Sat, 2/6/10, Chris Halarewich wrote: > From: Chris Halarewich > Subject: Re: The Virtual Revolution (History Of The Internet) > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Date: Saturday, February 6, 2010, 5:51 PM > to bad the download site is onlt > avail to people in the uk > > > > On 2/6/10, Andrew Burton > wrote: > > > > > > Hi all, > > > > I wasn't going to send out an email about this, but I > thought the 2nd > > episode was just as good as the first one, so here I > am :) > > > > In short, the programme (airing BBC2, UK, around > 8:15pm Saturdays) The > > Virtual Revolution looks at the history of the > internet (US Military, > > ARPAnet, The Well etc.) and it's influence on modern > life (hackers, > > terrorists, social networking etc.). > > The official site can be found here: > > > > http://www.bbc.co.uk/virtualrevolution/ > > > > Video's of some of the interviewees (including Tim > Berners-Lee and Peter > > Thiel) can be found here: > > > > http://www.bbc.co.uk/virtualrevolution/interviews.shtml > > > > > > A whole host of computers have been seen (for a few > seconds) on the > > programme, including an Altair 8080 and a PDP-10. > > Some short clips of the programme can be found on > YouTube. All of episode 2 > > can be found on BBC IPlayer here (for the next 7 days > only): > > > > > > http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00qsbvv/The_Virtual_Revolution_Enemy_of_the_State/ > > > > The whole show is 654MB (about 55 minutes long), if > you wish to download > > it. > > > > > > Regards, > > Andrew B > > aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk > > > > > > > From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Feb 7 15:55:51 2010 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Sun, 07 Feb 2010 14:55:51 -0700 Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 78, Issue 3 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B6F36E7.60302@jetnet.ab.ca> >>>> OK, I actuially have a US dime somwhere. Please tell me where I can >>>> exchange it for 12 PCs capable of running FPGA or CPLD development >>>> software. >>> I would. :) But I see PeeCees on the curb quite often. > >> Also, unless I missed something, Windows isn't free. I I doubt that if I >> found a junked PC that happeend to have a runnable copy of Windows on the >> hard drivce the ntat would count as a valid Windows license. I don't >> particulalry care for Windows, or any Microsoft product for that matter, >> but that doesn't give me the right to pirate them. > > So don't run Windows. FPGA/CPLD/PAL software runs on other platforms. > Indeed, large-scale chip design in the real world isn't typically done > under Windows. What happened to the saying "you give a inch, they take a mile"? The whole point is FPGA/CPLD/PAL design is available for the average working person. Large scale chip design is *not* to my knowledge[1]. Ben. > -Dave PS. I have a design concept with about the same number of gates as 6809 or a Z80. From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Feb 7 16:05:53 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 7 Feb 2010 17:05:53 -0500 Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 78, Issue 3 In-Reply-To: <4B6F36E7.60302@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4B6F36E7.60302@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <2FC4EF7D-5959-417D-81D6-BB5B12D02653@neurotica.com> On Feb 7, 2010, at 4:55 PM, Ben wrote: >>> Also, unless I missed something, Windows isn't free. I I doubt >>> that if I >>> found a junked PC that happeend to have a runnable copy of >>> Windows on the >>> hard drivce the ntat would count as a valid Windows license. I don't >>> particulalry care for Windows, or any Microsoft product for that >>> matter, >>> but that doesn't give me the right to pirate them. >> >> So don't run Windows. FPGA/CPLD/PAL software runs on other platforms. >> Indeed, large-scale chip design in the real world isn't typically >> done >> under Windows. > > What happened to the saying "you give a inch, they take a mile"? Huh? > The whole point is FPGA/CPLD/PAL design is available for the average > working person. Large scale chip design is *not* to my knowledge[1]. But FPGA/CPLD/PAL design *is*...and why wouldn't you want to use professional tools instead of toys? Real tools are available. > PS. I have a design concept with about the same number of gates as > 6809 or a Z80. Cool! Describe? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Feb 7 16:36:16 2010 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Sun, 07 Feb 2010 15:36:16 -0700 Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 78, Issue 3 In-Reply-To: <2FC4EF7D-5959-417D-81D6-BB5B12D02653@neurotica.com> References: <4B6F36E7.60302@jetnet.ab.ca> <2FC4EF7D-5959-417D-81D6-BB5B12D02653@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4B6F4060.7080401@jetnet.ab.ca> Dave McGuire wrote: >> The whole point is FPGA/CPLD/PAL design is available for the average >> working person. Large scale chip design is *not* to my knowledge[1]. > > But FPGA/CPLD/PAL design *is*...and why wouldn't you want to use > professional tools instead of toys? Real tools are available. > >> PS. I have a design concept with about the same number of gates as >> 6809 or a Z80. > > Cool! Describe? See: CPLD design. This current design is CPLD/2901 bitslice design. The ALU is 12 bits, double clocked to give a 24 bit CPU on a 6800/6502 style memory cycle.One CPLD is for high speed decoding and the other for the MAR and MBR data paths. A 8 bit refresh counter is for DRAM's. A 2.5 MHZ (top speed)clock gives a 800 ns memory cycle. 3 2901's make up the data path. A LSI version would have 24 bits in the ALU, but with a 3 bit carry skip adder. The logic design is slow but simple, with decoding taking the first clock cycle and the second cycle for alu operations. > -Dave Ben. From keithvz at verizon.net Sun Feb 7 16:57:09 2010 From: keithvz at verizon.net (KeithM) Date: Sun, 07 Feb 2010 17:57:09 -0500 Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 78, Issue 3 In-Reply-To: <4B6F4060.7080401@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4B6F36E7.60302@jetnet.ab.ca> <2FC4EF7D-5959-417D-81D6-BB5B12D02653@neurotica.com> <4B6F4060.7080401@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4B6F4545.3050704@verizon.net> Ben wrote: > See: CPLD design. This current design is CPLD/2901 bitslice design. > The ALU is 12 bits, double clocked to give a 24 bit CPU on a 6800/6502 > style memory cycle.One CPLD is for high speed decoding and the other > for the MAR and MBR data paths. A 8 bit refresh counter is for DRAM's. A > 2.5 MHZ (top speed)clock gives a 800 ns memory cycle. 3 2901's make > up the data path. > > A LSI version would have 24 bits in the ALU, but with a 3 bit carry > skip adder. The logic design is slow but simple, with decoding taking > the first clock cycle and the second cycle for alu operations. >> -Dave > > Ben. Neat. Is this on the order of 2000 gates +/-? I was trying to lookup the number of gates on the Z80 and 680x, and this is the closest I could come. :) Are you using verilog, VHDL, or something else? I have a Spartan-3e starter kit that contains a CoolRunner?-II CPLD (XC2C64A-5VQ44C). I'm in the process of using the FPGA, but haven't touched the CPLD. I barely know how to spell it. :) Keith From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Feb 7 17:13:53 2010 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Sun, 07 Feb 2010 16:13:53 -0700 Subject: cpld design In-Reply-To: <4B6F4545.3050704@verizon.net> References: <4B6F36E7.60302@jetnet.ab.ca> <2FC4EF7D-5959-417D-81D6-BB5B12D02653@neurotica.com> <4B6F4060.7080401@jetnet.ab.ca> <4B6F4545.3050704@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4B6F4931.3000606@jetnet.ab.ca> KeithM wrote: > Ben wrote: > >> See: CPLD design. This current design is CPLD/2901 bitslice design. >> The ALU is 12 bits, double clocked to give a 24 bit CPU on a 6800/6502 >> style memory cycle.One CPLD is for high speed decoding and the other >> for the MAR and MBR data paths. A 8 bit refresh counter is for DRAM's. >> A 2.5 MHZ (top speed)clock gives a 800 ns memory cycle. 3 2901's make >> up the data path. >> >> A LSI version would have 24 bits in the ALU, but with a 3 bit carry >> skip adder. The logic design is slow but simple, with decoding taking >> the first clock cycle and the second cycle for alu operations. >>> -Dave >> >> Ben. > > Neat. Is this on the order of 2000 gates +/-? I was trying to lookup the > number of gates on the Z80 and 680x, and this is the closest I could > come. :) I was doing it the other way. I have 8 24 bit registers and both the Z80/6809 have about 6 16 bit registers, so I am in the ballpark here. > Are you using verilog, VHDL, or something else? I have a Spartan-3e > starter kit that contains a CoolRunner?-II CPLD (XC2C64A-5VQ44C). I'm in > the process of using the FPGA, but haven't touched the CPLD. I barely > know how to spell it. :) I am using 128 cell CPLD's, from Atmel with CPUL (wincpul) for logic design. This language is at the gate level, but easy to use compared to the other two design languages. > Keith > Ben. From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Feb 7 17:20:49 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 7 Feb 2010 15:20:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: Dime-a-dozen PCs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20100207144427.W30568@shell.lmi.net> On Sun, 7 Feb 2010, Tony Duell wrote: > OK, I actuially have a US dime somwhere. Please tell me where I can > exchange it for 12 PCs capable of running FPGA or CPLD development software. Well, admittedly there is an issue of shipping. The dime is just the purchase price. If you can come up with a way to ship them, we (those in the USA) would be glad to provide a metric buttload of PCs. If you come visit, we can load you down with more stuff than you can carry. I'll even throw in some photographic equipment that you would like. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From steve at radiorobots.com Sun Feb 7 17:33:32 2010 From: steve at radiorobots.com (steve stutman) Date: Sun, 07 Feb 2010 18:33:32 -0500 Subject: Dime-a-dozen PCs In-Reply-To: <20100207144427.W30568@shell.lmi.net> References: <20100207144427.W30568@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4B6F4DCC.5030803@radiorobots.com> There is a US non-profit which runs a boarding school and skills training center in Kenya. They are looking for surplus PCs with 220 VAC OK supplies for use in basic rework and software skills programs. There may also a possibility for people to teach the basic skills required. Have known one of the principals for >20 years. This is legit; no resale or scrapping at destination. If people have surplus machines to contribute, please inform off-list. Thanks, Steve Boston Fred Cisin wrote: > On Sun, 7 Feb 2010, Tony Duell wrote: > >> OK, I actuially have a US dime somwhere. Please tell me where I can >> exchange it for 12 PCs capable of running FPGA or CPLD development software. >> > > Well, admittedly there is an issue of shipping. The dime is just the > purchase price. > > If you can come up with a way to ship them, we (those in the USA) would > be glad to provide a metric buttload of PCs. > > If you come visit, we can load you down with more stuff than you can > carry. I'll even throw in some photographic equipment that you would > like. > > > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com > From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Sun Feb 7 17:04:36 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun, 07 Feb 2010 23:04:36 +0000 Subject: Free computers in the rubbish/trash (was: Re: cctech Digest, Vol 78, Issue 3) In-Reply-To: <4B6F2320.1070004@mac.com> References: <4B6F2320.1070004@mac.com> Message-ID: <4B6F4704.5020403@philpem.me.uk> Roger Pugh wrote: > Well dont tell West Sussex county council where i get lots of tech junk... > i.e. Crawley recycling depot, its just sitting there in metal cages and > noone seems bothered it you take a bit. Some local councils have gone really anal recently. Last time I was down at the recycling/household waste depot, they had a weighbridge on the "in" road, and one on the "out" road. Your car is weighed going in and coming out. If the car weighs more coming out, you get to explain to the knuckle-dragging rent-a-droid why that happens to be the case. Good fun, especially when the "out" weighbridge is out of calibration relative to the "in" weighbridge.... "But we had it calibrated four years ago!" -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From geoffr at zipcon.net Sun Feb 7 18:00:57 2010 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoffrey Reed) Date: Sun, 07 Feb 2010 16:00:57 -0800 Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 78, Issue 3 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 2/7/10 10:23 AM, "Tony Duell" wrote: > Also, unless I missed something, Windows isn't free. I I doubt that if I > found a junked PC that happeend to have a runnable copy of Windows on the > hard drivce the ntat would count as a valid Windows license. I don't > particulalry care for Windows, or any Microsoft product for that matter, > but that doesn't give me the right to pirate them. > > -tony > It depends on the system actually, and the user :) for example, OEM's (dell, HP, etc) the OS is licensed to a particular machine, that is why when you purchase a Dell or HP pc, the windows activation key/cd key is affixed to the system. According to what MS states also, once you install Win XP, Vista, Win7, 98, 95, etc you are supposed to affix the cd-key/activation key label to that machine and use it on no other machine, even if you replace the machine they want you to buy a new windows license for that new machine. From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Sun Feb 7 18:22:23 2010 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sun, 07 Feb 2010 19:22:23 -0500 Subject: PDF files for Matrox Qbus QRGB boards In-Reply-To: <4B6C44FD.5070509@bitsavers.org> References: <4B6B755B.9020100@compsys.to> <4B6C44FD.5070509@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4B6F593F.1080500@compsys.to> >Al Kossow wrote: > On 2/4/10 5:33 PM, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > >> I sent Al Kossow the (PDF) manuals for the >> Qbus Matrox QRGB-Alpha and QRGB-Graph boards. He did not respond to >> or acknowledge my e-mail. In addition, the PDF manuals are still not >> available at bitsavers. > > Your files in my inbox at 7PM Feb 3. > Unsolicited donations are put into the work queue. > You said to NOT reply if I was interested, which is what I did. > They are up now without OCR. Thank you for the clarification. What does "without OCR" mean? Also, I have some manuals which are still hard copy with no one to scan them at the moment. The are the latest versions and perhaps you already have them scanned, but not available. TSX-PLUS and Release Notes for V05.07 of RT-11. Any suggestions? Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine From sethm at loomcom.com Sun Feb 7 18:30:54 2010 From: sethm at loomcom.com (Seth Morabito) Date: Mon, 8 Feb 2010 00:30:54 +0000 Subject: Moving "Sale". Lots of free stuff for pickup, SF Bay Area In-Reply-To: References: <20100207042627.GA1571@mail.loomcom.com> Message-ID: <20100208003054.GA6858@mail.loomcom.com> * On Sun, Feb 07, 2010 at 10:41:47AM -0500, Dan Gahlinger wrote: > > Anyone on this list considering picking some of this stuff up? > > maybe also getting the DS5000/240 for me and shipping it up to Canada? (I'd pay of course) > > unfortunately there's no way from Canada for me to get all the way down there just to pick up one piece :( > > lots of other wonderful stuff in there too... Happily for me, but I'm sorry to say unhappily for you, almost everything has been claimed in an extraordinarily short amount of time, including the DECstations. It's all going to other collectors in the local area. There are a few uninteresting bits and pieces left (Panasonic and TRS-80 terminals, the Model 100 laptop, the Indy), but if nobody wants them I'll just hang onto them and try offering them again after I move. -Seth From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Sun Feb 7 18:31:40 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Mon, 08 Feb 2010 00:31:40 +0000 Subject: cpld design In-Reply-To: <4B6F4931.3000606@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4B6F36E7.60302@jetnet.ab.ca> <2FC4EF7D-5959-417D-81D6-BB5B12D02653@neurotica.com> <4B6F4060.7080401@jetnet.ab.ca> <4B6F4545.3050704@verizon.net> <4B6F4931.3000606@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4B6F5B6C.1020403@philpem.me.uk> Ben wrote: > I am using 128 cell CPLD's, from Atmel with CPUL (wincpul) for > logic design. This language is at the gate level, but easy to use > compared to the other two design languages. Interesting. I find Verilog easier to use than CUPL. Certainly for register-based logic it makes the function of the code a bit more obvious; for combinational logic it really doesn't matter (although Verilog uses C-style expressions and thus might be a little easier for your average software geek to understand... ahem :P ) VHDL on the other hand is evil, distilled into its purest form. In my experience, what can be said in half a dozen lines of Verilog takes 30 or so in VHDL. CUPL seems to sit somewhere in the middle. I was forced to learn to read VHDL at a previous job (some idiot lost the register documentation for a glue-logic PLD, I got to rewrite it from source). That experience and one or two like it have put me off VHDL for life! I do, however, still use CUPL on occasion for creating fusemaps for GALs... I think I've still got half a tube of DIL-packaged Lattice GAL16V8s in my spares bin... -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From cclist at sydex.com Sun Feb 7 18:45:06 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 07 Feb 2010 16:45:06 -0800 Subject: cpld design In-Reply-To: <4B6F5B6C.1020403@philpem.me.uk> References: , <4B6F4931.3000606@jetnet.ab.ca>, <4B6F5B6C.1020403@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4B6EEE12.1055.1E449E7@cclist.sydex.com> On 8 Feb 2010 at 0:31, Philip Pemberton wrote: > VHDL on the other hand is evil, distilled into its purest form. In my > experience, what can be said in half a dozen lines of Verilog takes 30 > or so in VHDL. CUPL seems to sit somewhere in the middle. VHDL is the ADA of EDA languages--almost no one ever uses it because they *want* to. I like Verilog very much; it's straightforward and not too "dirty". --Chuck From tpeters at mixcom.com Sun Feb 7 18:43:27 2010 From: tpeters at mixcom.com (Tom Peters) Date: Sun, 07 Feb 2010 18:43:27 -0600 Subject: Free computers in the rubbish/trash (was: Re: cctech Digest, Vol 78, Issue 3) In-Reply-To: <4B6F4704.5020403@philpem.me.uk> References: <4B6F2320.1070004@mac.com> <4B6F2320.1070004@mac.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20100207184245.00bd5398@localhost> One must be sure to carry some bricks on the inbound trip, in such cases, to implement the "Indiana Jones" method. At 11:04 PM 2/7/2010 +0000, you wrote: >Roger Pugh wrote: >>Well dont tell West Sussex county council where i get lots of tech junk... >>i.e. Crawley recycling depot, its just sitting there in metal cages and >>noone seems bothered it you take a bit. > >Some local councils have gone really anal recently. Last time I was down >at the recycling/household waste depot, they had a weighbridge on the "in" >road, and one on the "out" road. Your car is weighed going in and coming >out. If the car weighs more coming out, you get to explain to the >knuckle-dragging rent-a-droid why that happens to be the case. > >Good fun, especially when the "out" weighbridge is out of calibration >relative to the "in" weighbridge.... "But we had it calibrated four years ago!" > >-- >Phil. >classiccmp at philpem.me.uk >http://www.philpem.me.uk/ ----- 1033. E clunibus tractum ("I pulled this out of my butt...") --... ...-- -.. . -. ----. --.- --.- -... tpeters at nospam.mixcom.com (remove "nospam") N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) WEB: http://www.mixcom.com/tpeters 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W, Elevation 815', Grid Square EN53wc WAN/LAN/Telcom Analyst, Tech Writer, MCP, CCNA, Registered Linux User 385531 From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Sun Feb 7 19:27:13 2010 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Sun, 7 Feb 2010 17:27:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: Free computers in the rubbish/trash (was: Re: cctech Digest, Vol 78, Issue 3) In-Reply-To: <4B6F4704.5020403@philpem.me.uk> References: <4B6F2320.1070004@mac.com> <4B6F4704.5020403@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: On Sun, 7 Feb 2010, Philip Pemberton wrote: > Roger Pugh wrote: >> Well dont tell West Sussex county council where i get lots of tech junk... >> i.e. Crawley recycling depot, its just sitting there in metal cages and >> noone seems bothered it you take a bit. > > Some local councils have gone really anal recently. Last time I was down at > the recycling/household waste depot, they had a weighbridge on the "in" road, > and one on the "out" road. Your car is weighed going in and coming out. If > the car weighs more coming out, you get to explain to the knuckle-dragging > rent-a-droid why that happens to be the case. > > Good fun, especially when the "out" weighbridge is out of calibration > relative to the "in" weighbridge.... "But we had it calibrated four years > ago!" "Bethselamin is now so worried about the cumulative erosion by ten billion visiting tourists a year that any net imbalance between the amount you eat and the amount you excrete whilst on the planet is surgically removed from your bodyweight when you leave: so every time you go to the lavatory it is vitally important to get a receipt." -- Douglas Adams -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Sun Feb 7 19:29:29 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Sun, 7 Feb 2010 23:29:29 -0200 Subject: Moving "Sale". Lots of free stuff for pickup, SF Bay Area References: <20100207042627.GA1571@mail.loomcom.com> <20100208003054.GA6858@mail.loomcom.com> Message-ID: <16fd01caa85e$4ff06ff0$0132a8c0@Alexandre> > There are a few uninteresting bits and pieces left (Panasonic and TRS-80 > terminals, the Model 100 laptop, the Indy), but if nobody wants them I'll > just > hang onto them and try offering them again after I move. I'd love to get the model 100, but I'm too far away, since you said you'll never ship anything (and never mind about the indy...oh my... :() From afra at aurigae.demon.co.uk Sun Feb 7 19:45:43 2010 From: afra at aurigae.demon.co.uk (Phill Harvey-Smith) Date: Mon, 08 Feb 2010 01:45:43 +0000 Subject: cpld design In-Reply-To: <4B6F5B6C.1020403@philpem.me.uk> References: <4B6F36E7.60302@jetnet.ab.ca> <2FC4EF7D-5959-417D-81D6-BB5B12D02653@neurotica.com> <4B6F4060.7080401@jetnet.ab.ca> <4B6F4545.3050704@verizon.net> <4B6F4931.3000606@jetnet.ab.ca> <4B6F5B6C.1020403@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4B6F6CC7.6040100@aurigae.demon.co.uk> On 08/02/2010 00:31, Philip Pemberton wrote: > Ben wrote: >> I am using 128 cell CPLD's, from Atmel with CPUL (wincpul) for >> logic design. This language is at the gate level, but easy to use >> compared to the other two design languages. While we're on the subject of Atmel's WinCUPL, is it just me or is it pretty buggy and crash prone...especially if you try and simulate your design. I do occasionally use it for programming the Atmel PALs. Cheers. Phill. From hachti at hachti.de Sun Feb 7 20:07:22 2010 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Mon, 08 Feb 2010 03:07:22 +0100 Subject: Honeywell 316 on govliquidation In-Reply-To: <37EA32D65C48498CB1F68C19285B55A7@owneraf75c46b7> References: <37EA32D65C48498CB1F68C19285B55A7@owneraf75c46b7> Message-ID: <4B6F71DA.1070001@hachti.de> Where? Cannot find it... -- http://www.hachti.de From hachti at hachti.de Sun Feb 7 20:19:34 2010 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Mon, 08 Feb 2010 03:19:34 +0100 Subject: Selling Calcomp 565 plotter In-Reply-To: <36C3D71D-EC51-4CC0-9ED4-5D59122AEFED@neurotica.com> References: <201002021239.53154.pat@computer-refuge.org> <36C3D71D-EC51-4CC0-9ED4-5D59122AEFED@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4B6F74B6.4050708@hachti.de> > URRRRRRRRR!!! Wantwantwant! Being broke SUCKS! > the plotter is in poor condition: 1. The drum is damaged. You'll probably have to fix that before it will be able to plot properly. 2. It is dirty. 3. There are no cables. Cables are harder to find than the plotter itself. 4. No pen. It will be challinging to get a pen holder for the plotter. 5. No trace of paper. Getting paper for this kind of plotter seems to be difficult to impossible (correct me if I'm wrong, still hoping..!!!). So don't worry about being broke - that fact saves you from throwing out your money for useless stuff :-) -- http://www.hachti.de From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Feb 7 20:44:49 2010 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Sun, 07 Feb 2010 19:44:49 -0700 Subject: cpld design In-Reply-To: <4B6F6CC7.6040100@aurigae.demon.co.uk> References: <4B6F36E7.60302@jetnet.ab.ca> <2FC4EF7D-5959-417D-81D6-BB5B12D02653@neurotica.com> <4B6F4060.7080401@jetnet.ab.ca> <4B6F4545.3050704@verizon.net> <4B6F4931.3000606@jetnet.ab.ca> <4B6F5B6C.1020403@philpem.me.uk> <4B6F6CC7.6040100@aurigae.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <4B6F7AA1.4010900@jetnet.ab.ca> Phill Harvey-Smith wrote: > On 08/02/2010 00:31, Philip Pemberton wrote: >> Ben wrote: >>> I am using 128 cell CPLD's, from Atmel with CPUL (wincpul) for >>> logic design. This language is at the gate level, but easy to use >>> compared to the other two design languages. > > While we're on the subject of Atmel's WinCUPL, is it just me or is it > pretty buggy and crash prone...especially if you try and simulate your > design. I do occasionally use it for programming the Atmel PALs. Simulate... What is that! I tend to find the IDE and compiler buggy. That is why I edit the source with EDIT and just compile it. I plan not to have complex logic, so I don't simulate stuff. Most of the time the logic fits ( or works ) or back to the drawing board. > Cheers. > > Phill. Ben. From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Feb 7 20:57:40 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 7 Feb 2010 21:57:40 -0500 Subject: Selling Calcomp 565 plotter In-Reply-To: <4B6F74B6.4050708@hachti.de> References: <201002021239.53154.pat@computer-refuge.org> <36C3D71D-EC51-4CC0-9ED4-5D59122AEFED@neurotica.com> <4B6F74B6.4050708@hachti.de> Message-ID: On Feb 7, 2010, at 9:19 PM, Philipp Hachtmann wrote: >> URRRRRRRRR!!! Wantwantwant! Being broke SUCKS! > the plotter is in poor condition: > 1. The drum is damaged. You'll probably have to fix that before it > will be able to plot properly. > 2. It is dirty. > 3. There are no cables. Cables are harder to find than the plotter > itself. > 4. No pen. It will be challinging to get a pen holder for the plotter. > 5. No trace of paper. Getting paper for this kind of plotter seems > to be difficult to impossible (correct me if I'm wrong, still > hoping..!!!). > > So don't worry about being broke - that fact saves you from > throwing out your money for useless stuff :-) I have paper and a set of cables, and I know how to retrofit a ball-point pen assembly into this if the solenoid assembly is intact. I used to have a 565. Useless? I'll bet it still plots. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Feb 7 21:04:49 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 7 Feb 2010 22:04:49 -0500 Subject: cpld design In-Reply-To: <4B6F5B6C.1020403@philpem.me.uk> References: <4B6F36E7.60302@jetnet.ab.ca> <2FC4EF7D-5959-417D-81D6-BB5B12D02653@neurotica.com> <4B6F4060.7080401@jetnet.ab.ca> <4B6F4545.3050704@verizon.net> <4B6F4931.3000606@jetnet.ab.ca> <4B6F5B6C.1020403@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <43440F84-85FE-4C75-B939-B856E1490475@neurotica.com> On Feb 7, 2010, at 7:31 PM, Philip Pemberton wrote: > Interesting. I find Verilog easier to use than CUPL. Certainly for > register-based logic it makes the function of the code a bit more > obvious; for combinational logic it really doesn't matter (although > Verilog uses C-style expressions and thus might be a little easier > for your average software geek to understand... ahem :P ) > > VHDL on the other hand is evil, distilled into its purest form. In > my experience, what can be said in half a dozen lines of Verilog > takes 30 or so in VHDL. CUPL seems to sit somewhere in the middle. > > I was forced to learn to read VHDL at a previous job (some idiot > lost the register documentation for a glue-logic PLD, I got to > rewrite it from source). That experience and one or two like it > have put me off VHDL for life! I agree on both VHDL and Verilog. My HDL experience is very limited, but I've looked at both, and immediately wondered why VHDL still exists. > I do, however, still use CUPL on occasion for creating fusemaps for > GALs... I think I've still got half a tube of DIL-packaged Lattice > GAL16V8s in my spares bin... > I still use PALASM for PAL/GAL work. I find it to be very simple and straightforward. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Sun Feb 7 18:56:37 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Mon, 08 Feb 2010 00:56:37 +0000 Subject: cpld design In-Reply-To: <4B6EEE12.1055.1E449E7@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4B6F4931.3000606@jetnet.ab.ca>, <4B6F5B6C.1020403@philpem.me.uk> <4B6EEE12.1055.1E449E7@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4B6F6145.2000601@philpem.me.uk> Chuck Guzis wrote: > VHDL is the ADA of EDA languages--almost no one ever uses it because > they *want* to. I like Verilog very much; it's straightforward and > not too "dirty". Agreed. I started using Verilog because it uses C style expressions (and most of the operator precedence rules are the same), and the language structure follows similar conventions. The keywords, OTOH, are more like Pascal... This does (IME) occasionally "lead you down the garden path" sometimes. I've found myself thinking in terms of how I'd implement something in software, then realising that I was writing HDL code and describing hardware... Makes for some fun design quirks. (Thankfully I think I've eliminated most of the ones that crept into the DiscFerret disc analyser -- which is in the first stage of prototyping at the moment. I'm currently prototyping and stress-testing the power supply / voltage regulation circuitry) -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From tosteve at yahoo.com Sun Feb 7 21:31:36 2010 From: tosteve at yahoo.com (steven stengel) Date: Sun, 7 Feb 2010 19:31:36 -0800 (PST) Subject: Vintage Pertec 10 data recorder tape drive - $50 (Graigslist Oxnard, CA) Message-ID: <849809.5989.qm@web110609.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Not mine: http://losangeles.craigslist.org/sfv/sys/1590090200.html From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Feb 7 21:56:25 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 7 Feb 2010 22:56:25 -0500 Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 78, Issue 3 In-Reply-To: <4B6F4060.7080401@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4B6F36E7.60302@jetnet.ab.ca> <2FC4EF7D-5959-417D-81D6-BB5B12D02653@neurotica.com> <4B6F4060.7080401@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <595A252D-41B9-4299-8450-E81A71E756E0@neurotica.com> On Feb 7, 2010, at 5:36 PM, Ben wrote: >>> PS. I have a design concept with about the same number of gates as >>> 6809 or a Z80. >> >> Cool! Describe? > > See: CPLD design. This current design is CPLD/2901 bitslice design. > The ALU is 12 bits, double clocked to give a 24 bit CPU on a 6800/6502 > style memory cycle.One CPLD is for high speed decoding and the other > for the MAR and MBR data paths. A 8 bit refresh counter is for > DRAM's. A 2.5 MHZ (top speed)clock gives a 800 ns memory cycle. 3 > 2901's make > up the data path. That sounds like fun. Had you ever thought about making boards for these to sell to people? I'd want a couple, I'll bet some other people would buy them too...they sound like fun to hack on. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Feb 7 21:57:34 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 7 Feb 2010 22:57:34 -0500 Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 78, Issue 3 In-Reply-To: <4B6F4545.3050704@verizon.net> References: <4B6F36E7.60302@jetnet.ab.ca> <2FC4EF7D-5959-417D-81D6-BB5B12D02653@neurotica.com> <4B6F4060.7080401@jetnet.ab.ca> <4B6F4545.3050704@verizon.net> Message-ID: On Feb 7, 2010, at 5:57 PM, KeithM wrote: > I'm in the process of using the FPGA, but haven't touched the > CPLD. I barely know how to spell it. :) FPGAs are more flexible, but I found CPLDs easier to get started with. That's likely because I had done PAL design before, and CPLDs (at least the Xilinx ones, dunno about others) implement a very similar architecture. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Feb 7 22:11:48 2010 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Sun, 07 Feb 2010 21:11:48 -0700 Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 78, Issue 3 In-Reply-To: <595A252D-41B9-4299-8450-E81A71E756E0@neurotica.com> References: <4B6F36E7.60302@jetnet.ab.ca> <2FC4EF7D-5959-417D-81D6-BB5B12D02653@neurotica.com> <4B6F4060.7080401@jetnet.ab.ca> <595A252D-41B9-4299-8450-E81A71E756E0@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4B6F8F04.8070001@jetnet.ab.ca> Dave McGuire wrote: >> See: CPLD design. This current design is CPLD/2901 bitslice design. >> The ALU is 12 bits, double clocked to give a 24 bit CPU on a 6800/6502 >> style memory cycle.One CPLD is for high speed decoding and the other >> for the MAR and MBR data paths. A 8 bit refresh counter is for DRAM's. >> A 2.5 MHZ (top speed)clock gives a 800 ns memory cycle. 3 2901's make >> up the data path. > > That sounds like fun. > > Had you ever thought about making boards for these to sell to people? > I'd want a couple, I'll bet some other people would buy them too...they > sound like fun to hack on. I plan to make up some PCB's for my local use, when I get off my butt. Right now I am taking a short break, since I am not sure just what the rest of the design will be like. Most likely similar to the Mark 8 micro-computer with a 50 pin ribbon cable buss and PC floppy drive connectors for power. It looks like about 6 boards. A) clock/front panel B) Cpu C) 128 kb static ram D) 128 kb static ram/EEPROM E) Uart/IDE interface F) spare Ben. > -Dave > From jdr_use at bluewin.ch Mon Feb 8 00:28:11 2010 From: jdr_use at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen) Date: Mon, 08 Feb 2010 07:28:11 +0100 Subject: VHDL vs Verilog In-Reply-To: <4B6EEE12.1055.1E449E7@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4B6F4931.3000606@jetnet.ab.ca>, <4B6F5B6C.1020403@philpem.me.uk> <4B6EEE12.1055.1E449E7@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4B6FAEFB.4060907@bluewin.ch> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 8 Feb 2010 at 0:31, Philip Pemberton wrote: > > >> VHDL on the other hand is evil, distilled into its purest form. In my >> experience, what can be said in half a dozen lines of Verilog takes 30 >> or so in VHDL. CUPL seems to sit somewhere in the middle. >> > > VHDL is the ADA of EDA languages--almost no one ever uses it because > they *want* to. I like Verilog very much; it's straightforward and > not too "dirty". > > --Chuck > VHDL vs Verilog is another holy war, and about as useful as a 6502 vs Z80 discussion. Thus I continue : Personally I pity those who never get into VHDL and stay with Verilog, and I will choose VHDL over Verilog any day. Oh the agony when forced to use a Verilog testbench from our US collegues..... Jos Dreesen From chd at chdickman.com Sun Feb 7 17:47:55 2010 From: chd at chdickman.com (Charles H Dickman) Date: Sun, 07 Feb 2010 18:47:55 -0500 Subject: 6809 SBC In-Reply-To: <392936.72562.qm@web111516.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <392936.72562.qm@web111516.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4B6F512B.4030405@nktelco.net> William Blair wrote: > Having learned assembly language programming on the beautifully simple architecture and instruction set of the 6800, the Byte magazine article linked to below that I read when it was originally published really impressed me. In the 6809 they made one of the earliest efforts I know of to really tweak an already great uP instruction set based upon an analysis of existing software: > > http://tlindner.macmess.org/?page_id=119 > I was introduced to the 6809 when I was at university and it just seemed right. I came home and bought a CoCo2 and an EDTASM+ cartridge just to play with it. I still have it. Is there a source for 6829 MMUs? I would love to build a 6809 SBC with an MMU that could run OS-9. -chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Feb 8 01:43:01 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 8 Feb 2010 02:43:01 -0500 Subject: 6809 SBC In-Reply-To: <4B6F512B.4030405@nktelco.net> References: <392936.72562.qm@web111516.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4B6F512B.4030405@nktelco.net> Message-ID: <3AA2814F-0E0C-495B-8924-F2544CAE73F8@neurotica.com> On Feb 7, 2010, at 6:47 PM, Charles H Dickman wrote: > Is there a source for 6829 MMUs? I would love to build a 6809 SBC > with an MMU that could run OS-9. Unicorn doesn't even have them. :-( Were they just not widely used or something? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Mon Feb 8 01:45:05 2010 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Sun, 07 Feb 2010 23:45:05 -0800 Subject: Looking for: Dauphin DTR-1 Floppy In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B6FC101.1020208@mail.msu.edu> Teo Zenios wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Josh Dersch" > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Sent: Friday, February 05, 2010 6:40 PM > Subject: Looking for: Dauphin DTR-1 Floppy > > >> A number of DTR-1s have been showing up on eBay recently (cheap) so I >> decided to snag one. (I really wanted one when they were new but my >> salary as a 15 year old prevented such a thing from happening...) >> >> As an additional aside, it's one of few devices that used the HP >> Kittyhawk drive (a 1.3" 40mb drive). Quite a marvel of engineering >> in 1993... >> >> Anyway, the specimen I obtained works fine (need to rebuild the >> battery) but lacks the external floppy drive. So my only real >> option for getting software on the machine is over the serial port, >> which is a a bit annoying (and also precludes installing a new OS on >> it..) >> >> Anyone have any spares? >> >> Thanks, >> Josh >> > > No floppy drive here (I have a couple units with bad keyboards), but > there is a site that shows the pinout for the port. > Yeah, I found that -- but I have no idea what kind of connector the Dauphin uses for the floppy port, it's not something I've seen before and I don't know its "name" so it's difficult to search for :). Anyone know? (I can supply pictures if needed...) Josh From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Mon Feb 8 01:45:39 2010 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Sun, 07 Feb 2010 23:45:39 -0800 Subject: Looking for: Dauphin DTR-1 Floppy In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B6FC123.20707@mail.msu.edu> Zane H. Healy wrote: > I might have spares. The problem being I'm not sure where in the > garage (aka the disaster area), the two boxes of DTR-1 stuff is. I > think I have 4 systems, and some other stuff. It will be quite some > time before I start digging back to that point. > > Zane > > Thanks -- if you do ever find yourself digging around and find them, let me know :). Josh From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Mon Feb 8 08:17:40 2010 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Mon, 8 Feb 2010 15:17:40 +0100 (CET) Subject: hp 9153 floppy & disk In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, 6 Feb 2010, Rik Bos wrote: > Witch Vectra do you mean ? The "classic" Vectra of course. We had *many* of those years ago at the computer sience department, bought around 1986 so that the people could work on their "own personal computer" instead of sharing one big and slow one (there was a VAX11/780 and 11/750 at that time). I've made some pictures of a) the ISA controller card and b) the disk drive that goes with it. The controller part number is 5061-2826, the drive sled including the drives 45816A, and the HDA's number is 97500-85620. The sled contains two drives for a total capacity of 2x20 MB. I think the transfer rate is 4 Mbit/s; there's an 8 MHz quarz oscillator on it. Christian From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Mon Feb 8 09:13:08 2010 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Mon, 8 Feb 2010 16:13:08 +0100 (CET) Subject: hp 9153 floppy & disk In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 8 Feb 2010, Christian Corti wrote: > I've made some pictures of a) the ISA controller card and b) the disk drive Sorry, the link is http://computermuseum.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pics/vectra/ Christian From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Feb 8 10:00:23 2010 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Mon, 08 Feb 2010 09:00:23 -0700 Subject: 6809 SBC In-Reply-To: <4B6F512B.4030405@nktelco.net> References: <392936.72562.qm@web111516.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4B6F512B.4030405@nktelco.net> Message-ID: <4B703517.7010201@jetnet.ab.ca> Charles H Dickman wrote: > William Blair wrote: >> Having learned assembly language programming on the beautifully simple >> architecture and instruction set of the 6800, the Byte magazine >> article linked to below that I read when it was originally published >> really impressed me. In the 6809 they made one of the earliest efforts >> I know of to really tweak an already great uP instruction set based >> upon an analysis of existing software: >> >> http://tlindner.macmess.org/?page_id=119 > I was introduced to the 6809 when I was at university and it just seemed > right. I came home and bought a CoCo2 and an EDTASM+ cartridge just to > play with it. I still have it. > > Is there a source for 6829 MMUs? I would love to build a 6809 SBC with > an MMU that could run OS-9. Well you can get the data sheet here: Get it now, to the link works. Who knows in 24 hours. http://www.macmess.org/downloads/mc6829.pdf > -chuck > Ben. From cclist at sydex.com Mon Feb 8 10:50:40 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 08 Feb 2010 08:50:40 -0800 Subject: VHDL vs Verilog In-Reply-To: <4B6FAEFB.4060907@bluewin.ch> References: , <4B6EEE12.1055.1E449E7@cclist.sydex.com>, <4B6FAEFB.4060907@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: <4B6FD060.26695.66EBA@cclist.sydex.com> On 8 Feb 2010 at 7:28, Jos Dreesen wrote: > VHDL vs Verilog is another holy war, and about as useful as a 6502 vs > Z80 discussion. Thus I continue : Personally I pity those who never > get into VHDL and stay with Verilog, and I will choose VHDL over > Verilog any day. Oh the agony when forced to use a Verilog testbench > from our US collegues..... I remember the Algol-FORTRAN cross-pond war of the 60s and 70s. :) Now I wonder, "who won?" :) --Chuck From jdr_use at bluewin.ch Mon Feb 8 12:27:48 2010 From: jdr_use at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen) Date: Mon, 08 Feb 2010 19:27:48 +0100 Subject: VHDL vs Verilog In-Reply-To: <4B6FD060.26695.66EBA@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4B6EEE12.1055.1E449E7@cclist.sydex.com>, <4B6FAEFB.4060907@bluewin.ch> <4B6FD060.26695.66EBA@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4B7057A4.8040208@bluewin.ch> > I remember the Algol-FORTRAN cross-pond war of the 60s and 70s. :) > > Now I wonder, "who won?" :) > > --Chuck > Nobody won.... For the HDL languages, both VHDL and Verilog are US creations. I have no idea why Europe prefers VHDL, and US prefers Verilog. Jos From quapla at xs4all.nl Mon Feb 8 12:34:11 2010 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (Ed Groenenberg) Date: Mon, 8 Feb 2010 19:34:11 +0100 Subject: Available : VAX/VMS book Message-ID: <082cb7eeac8cdc6276942a08225b1301.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> For $10 + postage VAX/ VMS Internals & Data structures by Ruth E. Goldberg & Lawrence J. Kenah. Note : item in in the Netherlands, book weights about 4 pounds. -- Dit is een HTML vrije email / This is an HTML free email. From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Mon Feb 8 12:41:16 2010 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Mon, 8 Feb 2010 19:41:16 +0100 Subject: hp 9153 floppy & disk In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <64A33CF18402414B8BD1B887DC77D5AC@xp1800> > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Namens Christian Corti > Verzonden: maandag 8 februari 2010 16:13 > Aan: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Onderwerp: RE: hp 9153 floppy & disk > > On Mon, 8 Feb 2010, Christian Corti wrote: > > I've made some pictures of a) the ISA controller card and > b) the disk > > drive > > Sorry, the link is > http://computermuseum.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pics/vectra/ > > Christian Ahh, Christian thanks for 'the enlightment'. The ones I saw at that time always where equiped with a ST225 or ST255. I worked from medio '86 to '89 for a HP-dealer but never seen these and we sold a lot of Vectra's in those days, so may be they weren't available in the Netherlands. -Rik From oltmansg at bellsouth.net Mon Feb 8 13:26:39 2010 From: oltmansg at bellsouth.net (geoffrey oltmans) Date: Mon, 8 Feb 2010 11:26:39 -0800 (PST) Subject: VHDL vs Verilog In-Reply-To: <4B7057A4.8040208@bluewin.ch> References: , <4B6EEE12.1055.1E449E7@cclist.sydex.com>, <4B6FAEFB.4060907@bluewin.ch> <4B6FD060.26695.66EBA@cclist.sydex.com> <4B7057A4.8040208@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: <190633.54177.qm@web83902.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> AFAIK, all of our HDL stuff at work is done in VHDL. ________________________________ From: Jos Dreesen To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Sent: Mon, February 8, 2010 12:27:48 PM Subject: Re: VHDL vs Verilog > I remember the Algol-FORTRAN cross-pond war of the 60s and 70s. :) > Now I wonder, "who won?" :) > > --Chuck > Nobody won.... For the HDL languages, both VHDL and Verilog are US creations. I have no idea why Europe prefers VHDL, and US prefers Verilog. Jos From hachti at hachti.de Mon Feb 8 13:44:32 2010 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Mon, 08 Feb 2010 20:44:32 +0100 Subject: cpld design In-Reply-To: <4B6EEE12.1055.1E449E7@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4B6F4931.3000606@jetnet.ab.ca>, <4B6F5B6C.1020403@philpem.me.uk> <4B6EEE12.1055.1E449E7@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4B7069A0.8070605@hachti.de> Oh! > VHDL is the ADA of EDA languages--almost no one ever uses it because > they *want* to. I adore it! I find Verilog quite crappy. And it doesn't tell me when I misspell a signal. Ok, perhaps a little compiler warning - but that's all. With VHDL I have a quite better chance to get a running design if it passes the compiler...! > I like Verilog very much; it's straightforward and > not too "dirty". IMHO it *IS* dirty. VERY dirty. Philipp .-) -- http://www.hachti.de From hachti at hachti.de Mon Feb 8 13:50:15 2010 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Mon, 08 Feb 2010 20:50:15 +0100 Subject: VHDL vs Verilog In-Reply-To: <4B6FAEFB.4060907@bluewin.ch> References: , <4B6F4931.3000606@jetnet.ab.ca>, <4B6F5B6C.1020403@philpem.me.uk> <4B6EEE12.1055.1E449E7@cclist.sydex.com> <4B6FAEFB.4060907@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: <4B706AF7.3030101@hachti.de> > Personally I pity those who never get into VHDL and stay with Verilog, > and I will choose VHDL over Verilog any day. Agree :-) > Oh the agony when forced to use a Verilog testbench from our US > collegues..... Oh, let's do it in SystemC - that cures every pain! Philipp :-) From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Feb 8 12:38:05 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 8 Feb 2010 18:38:05 +0000 (GMT) Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 78, Issue 3 In-Reply-To: <4B6F36E7.60302@jetnet.ab.ca> from "Ben" at Feb 7, 10 02:55:51 pm Message-ID: > > > >>>> OK, I actuially have a US dime somwhere. Please tell me where I can > >>>> exchange it for 12 PCs capable of running FPGA or CPLD development > >>>> software. > >>> > I would. :) But I see PeeCees on the curb quite often. OK, I'll pay shippiong on the Dime, you pay shipping on the 12 PCs ;-) -tony From quapla at xs4all.nl Mon Feb 8 14:14:41 2010 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (Ed Groenenberg) Date: Mon, 8 Feb 2010 21:14:41 +0100 Subject: Available : VAX/VMS book In-Reply-To: <082cb7eeac8cdc6276942a08225b1301.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> References: <082cb7eeac8cdc6276942a08225b1301.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: Book has been spoken for. > For $10 + postage > > VAX/ VMS Internals & Data structures > by Ruth E. Goldberg & Lawrence J. Kenah. > > Note : item in in the Netherlands, book weights about 4 pounds. > -- > Dit is een HTML vrije email / This is an HTML free email. > > -- Dit is een HTML vrije email / This is an HTML free email. From andyh at andyh-rayleigh.freeserve.co.uk Mon Feb 8 12:42:13 2010 From: andyh at andyh-rayleigh.freeserve.co.uk (Andy Holt) Date: Mon, 8 Feb 2010 18:42:13 -0000 Subject: Algol vs Fortran was RE: VHDL vs Verilog In-Reply-To: <4B6FD060.26695.66EBA@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4B6EEE12.1055.1E449E7@cclist.sydex.com>, <4B6FAEFB.4060907@bluewin.ch> <4B6FD060.26695.66EBA@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: >>>> I remember the Algol-FORTRAN cross-pond war of the 60s and 70s. :) Now I wonder, "who won?" :) <<<< The easy answer is "C" :-) You can look at it at least two ways: * C has the structure of Algol with most of the dirty tricks and efficiency of FORTRAN. * C derives from multiple paths - One of these ia PL/I (which derives from Fortran, Algol, and COBOL) Another is from B which comes from BCPL which comes from CPL which was essentially an extended Algol However it seems that the saying: "I don't know what language engineers will use in the future, but I know they'll call it Fortran." has mostly turned-out mistaken. Andy From hachti at hachti.de Mon Feb 8 14:25:08 2010 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Mon, 08 Feb 2010 21:25:08 +0100 Subject: Selling Calcomp 565 plotter In-Reply-To: References: <201002021239.53154.pat@computer-refuge.org> <36C3D71D-EC51-4CC0-9ED4-5D59122AEFED@neurotica.com> <4B6F74B6.4050708@hachti.de> Message-ID: <4B707324.5050906@hachti.de> > I have paper and a set of cables, That's good! Especially the paper! > and I know how to retrofit a > ball-point pen assembly into this if the solenoid assembly is intact. So please compare the second part of your statement (the words after "if") with the photograph on eBay: The solenoid assembly is missing completely. > Useless? I'll bet it still plots. If it plots, it's nice. But this unit also has some bumps on the drum. And no solenoid assembly. If there are bumps on the drum you'll probably run in trouble with the (nonexistant) solenoid. My experience. Regards, Philipp :-) -- http://www.hachti.de From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Feb 8 14:43:28 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 8 Feb 2010 15:43:28 -0500 Subject: Selling Calcomp 565 plotter In-Reply-To: <4B707324.5050906@hachti.de> References: <201002021239.53154.pat@computer-refuge.org> <36C3D71D-EC51-4CC0-9ED4-5D59122AEFED@neurotica.com> <4B6F74B6.4050708@hachti.de> <4B707324.5050906@hachti.de> Message-ID: On Feb 8, 2010, at 3:25 PM, Philipp Hachtmann wrote: >> I have paper and a set of cables, > That's good! Especially the paper! > >> and I know how to retrofit a ball-point pen assembly into this if >> the solenoid assembly is intact. > So please compare the second part of your statement (the words > after "if") with the photograph on eBay: The solenoid assembly is > missing completely. Oops. I didn't actually look at the auction. The solenoid assembly would be impossible to find and very difficult to fabricate. >> Useless? I'll bet it still plots. > If it plots, it's nice. Absolutely. :-) > But this unit also has some bumps on the drum. And no solenoid > assembly. If there are bumps on the drum you'll probably run in > trouble with the (nonexistant) solenoid. My experience. I wonder how difficult it'd be to resurface the drum? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cclist at sydex.com Mon Feb 8 15:03:16 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 08 Feb 2010 13:03:16 -0800 Subject: cpld design In-Reply-To: <4B7069A0.8070605@hachti.de> References: , <4B6EEE12.1055.1E449E7@cclist.sydex.com>, <4B7069A0.8070605@hachti.de> Message-ID: <4B700B94.19685.EDB1AB@cclist.sydex.com> On 8 Feb 2010 at 20:44, Philipp Hachtmann wrote: > I adore it! Your first programmig language was probably Algol. :) (or Pascal or Modula-2, depending upon your vintage). --Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Feb 8 15:08:47 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 8 Feb 2010 16:08:47 -0500 Subject: cpld design In-Reply-To: <4B700B94.19685.EDB1AB@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4B6EEE12.1055.1E449E7@cclist.sydex.com>, <4B7069A0.8070605@hachti.de> <4B700B94.19685.EDB1AB@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4C304E03-9819-4EAB-B7CA-AF5566DAD182@neurotica.com> On Feb 8, 2010, at 4:03 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> I adore it! > > Your first programmig language was probably Algol. :) (or Pascal or > Modula-2, depending upon your vintage). I've written ALGOL code. It is FAR more elegant than VHDL. ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cclist at sydex.com Mon Feb 8 15:10:58 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 08 Feb 2010 13:10:58 -0800 Subject: Algol vs Fortran was RE: VHDL vs Verilog In-Reply-To: References: , <4B6FD060.26695.66EBA@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4B700D62.20109.F4BCA6@cclist.sydex.com> On 8 Feb 2010 at 18:42, Andy Holt wrote: > I remember the Algol-FORTRAN cross-pond war of the 60s and 70s. :) > > Now I wonder, "who won?" :) > > The easy answer is "C" :-) The curious thing is that the "structured" languages of the 70s (Pascal and Modula-2) seem to have regressed to minority languages. If anything, the language battles taught me that it's possible to write unintelligible code in *any* language. But I'd say that FORTRAN probably won the FORTRAN-Algol war in at least one respect. Most of the nuclear arms race software was done in it (or in dialects of it, such as LRLTRAN). I do not know what the Soviets used, but it probably wasn't FORTRAN. Let's see--the last standard revision to FORTRAN was Fortran 2003; that to Algol was, what, Algol-68? --Chuck From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Feb 8 15:23:11 2010 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Mon, 08 Feb 2010 14:23:11 -0700 Subject: VHDL vs Verilog In-Reply-To: <4B6FD060.26695.66EBA@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4B6EEE12.1055.1E449E7@cclist.sydex.com>, <4B6FAEFB.4060907@bluewin.ch> <4B6FD060.26695.66EBA@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4B7080BF.5030200@jetnet.ab.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 8 Feb 2010 at 7:28, Jos Dreesen wrote: > >> VHDL vs Verilog is another holy war, and about as useful as a 6502 vs >> Z80 discussion. Thus I continue : Personally I pity those who never >> get into VHDL and stay with Verilog, and I will choose VHDL over >> Verilog any day. Oh the agony when forced to use a Verilog testbench >> from our US collegues..... > > I remember the Algol-FORTRAN cross-pond war of the 60s and 70s. :) > > Now I wonder, "who won?" :) > > --Chuck > I say fortran ... They have compilers for it! :) I think they have the same problem with the very high level languages: NO IN/OUT. Ben. From n0body.h0me at inbox.com Mon Feb 8 15:31:51 2010 From: n0body.h0me at inbox.com (N0body H0me) Date: Mon, 8 Feb 2010 13:31:51 -0800 Subject: 6809 SBC In-Reply-To: <4B6F512B.4030405@nktelco.net> References: <392936.72562.qm@web111516.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6DA351CFC7C.00000473n0body.h0me@inbox.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: chd at chdickman.com > Sent: Sun, 07 Feb 2010 18:47:55 -0500 > To: > Subject: Re: 6809 SBC > > William Blair wrote: >> Having learned assembly language programming on the beautifully simple >> architecture and instruction set of the 6800, the Byte magazine article >> linked to below that I read when it was originally published really >> impressed me. In the 6809 they made one of the earliest efforts I know >> of to really tweak an already great uP instruction set based upon an >> analysis of existing software: >> >> http://tlindner.macmess.org/?page_id=119 >> > I was introduced to the 6809 when I was at university and it just seemed > right. I came home and bought a CoCo2 and an EDTASM+ cartridge just to > play with it. I still have it. > > Is there a source for 6829 MMUs? I would love to build a 6809 SBC with > an MMU that could run OS-9. > > -chuck From what little I've managed to gather, the 6829 had some limitations that made it either difficult to use, or otherwise impractical for many (if not most) applications. I've read someplace, for instance, that you were restricted to four tasks. I suspect for that reason, they're rarely seen. They were rare even in their own time. A better approach, may be to create some hardware to emulate either a Gimix or SwTPc style DAT (dynamic address translator). The key element here, is that both of these are supported by some version of OS/9. -Jeff From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Feb 8 15:38:07 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 8 Feb 2010 13:38:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: cpld design In-Reply-To: <4B700B94.19685.EDB1AB@cclist.sydex.com> from Chuck Guzis at "Feb 8, 10 01:03:16 pm" Message-ID: <201002082138.o18Lc7i3012910@floodgap.com> > > I adore it! > > Your first programmig language was probably Algol. :) (or Pascal or > Modula-2, depending upon your vintage). Pascal. But I did do some Mac programming in Modula-2 with MacMETH before I graduated to CodeWarrior and FutureBASIC. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Magic armour is not all it's cracked up to be. -- Terry Pratchett ---------- From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Feb 8 15:41:58 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 8 Feb 2010 16:41:58 -0500 Subject: 6809 SBC In-Reply-To: <6DA351CFC7C.00000473n0body.h0me@inbox.com> References: <392936.72562.qm@web111516.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4B6F512B.4030405@nktelco.net> <6DA351CFC7C.00000473n0body.h0me@inbox.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Feb 8, 2010 at 4:31 PM, N0body H0me wrote: > From what little I've managed to gather, the 6829 had some limitations that made it either difficult to use, or otherwise impractical for > many (if not most) applications. ?I've read someplace, for instance, that you were restricted to four tasks. ?I suspect for that reason, > they're rarely seen. ?They were rare even in their own time. I'd never heard of it before today (I was into the 6502 then as now). Glancing at the datasheet, yes, there are registers to handle 4 tasks, but you can apparently stack up to 8 6829s in one system for 32 tasks. With 20 bits of memory addressing, it seems a reasonable balance (32 tasks in 1MB), but finding room on a board to stuff eight 40-pin DIPs between the CPU and memory seems the harder job. -ethan From emu at e-bbes.com Mon Feb 8 15:59:28 2010 From: emu at e-bbes.com (e.stiebler) Date: Mon, 08 Feb 2010 14:59:28 -0700 Subject: 6809 SBC In-Reply-To: References: <392936.72562.qm@web111516.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4B6F512B.4030405@nktelco.net> <6DA351CFC7C.00000473n0body.h0me@inbox.com> Message-ID: <4B708940.5090807@e-bbes.com> Ethan Dicks wrote: > I'd never heard of it before today (I was into the 6502 then as now). > Glancing at the datasheet, yes, there are registers to handle 4 tasks, > but you can apparently stack up to 8 6829s in one system for 32 tasks. > With 20 bits of memory addressing, it seems a reasonable balance (32 > tasks in 1MB), but finding room on a board to stuff eight 40-pin DIPs > between the CPU and memory seems the harder job. Just stack them ;-) most signals are connected parallel ... From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Feb 8 16:05:16 2010 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Mon, 08 Feb 2010 15:05:16 -0700 Subject: Algol vs Fortran was RE: VHDL vs Verilog In-Reply-To: <4B700D62.20109.F4BCA6@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4B6FD060.26695.66EBA@cclist.sydex.com>, <4B700D62.20109.F4BCA6@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4B708A9C.9080005@jetnet.ab.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote: > Let's see--the last standard revision to FORTRAN was Fortran 2003; > that to Algol was, what, Algol-68? Umm I still like Fortran IV. I know you can get II or IV for the PDP8. Back on topic. The main advantage is Fortran's memory addressing does not require local variables like Algol type languages.C is in the middle, stack but not multi level indexing for simple variables. Only with mini-computer architecture - PDP 11 for example did other languages develop, other than LISP that never seems to have a practical form but always R&D type stuff. > --Chuck > Ben. From arcbe2001 at yahoo.com Mon Feb 8 16:25:08 2010 From: arcbe2001 at yahoo.com (Russ Bartlett) Date: Mon, 8 Feb 2010 14:25:08 -0800 (PST) Subject: Algol vs Fortran was RE: VHDL vs Verilog In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <466136.66822.qm@web110414.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Part of Primos O/S was written in FORTRAN as well their Prime Information ? (Pick like DBMS on Prime) Databasic.? Also? earlier DEC Dibol language.? On the other hand Algol was extensively used on the Burroughs as was central to its architecture (no assembler).? Burroughs had a highly advanced stack type architecture. Having used both - Algol!?? Algol people viewed Fortran people pretty much the same way COBOL guys viewed RPG people.? --- On Mon, 2/8/10, Andy Holt wrote: From: Andy Holt Subject: Algol vs FORTRAN was RE: VHDL vs Verilog To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" Date: Monday, February 8, 2010, 1:42 PM >>>> I remember the Algol-FORTRAN cross-pond war of the 60s and 70s.? :) ? Now I wonder, "who won?"? :) <<<< The easy answer is "C" :-) You can look at it at least two ways: * C has the structure of Algol with most of the dirty tricks and efficiency of FORTRAN. * C derives from multiple paths - ???One of these ia PL/I (which derives from Fortran, Algol, and COBOL) ???Another is from B which comes from BCPL which comes from CPL which was essentially an extended Algol However it seems that the saying: "I don't know what language engineers will use in the future, but I know they'll call it Fortran." has mostly turned-out mistaken. Andy From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Feb 8 14:05:50 2010 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Mon, 8 Feb 2010 20:05:50 -0000 Subject: TV Licensing (Re: cctech Digest, Vol 78, Issue 3) References: <4EAC59415E584083A435637C481C7648@ANTONIOPC> Message-ID: <00b301caa90f$3074b940$9bfdf93e@user8459cef6fa> Is that one license per item (e.g. we have two TV's and a Sega Game Gear with (analogue) TV Tuner), or one license per house? Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" Sent: Sunday, February 07, 2010 7:37 PM Subject: RE: cctech Digest, Vol 78, Issue 3 Oh, and you only need a licence to view content "live" (any contents, not just BBC or even any UK channels, satellite stuff too ...) on any device (TV, PC, phone, maybe even your fillings if you happen to be an oddball synaesthete). Antonio From arcarlini at iee.org Mon Feb 8 17:04:51 2010 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Mon, 8 Feb 2010 23:04:51 -0000 Subject: TV Licensing (Re: cctech Digest, Vol 78, Issue 3) In-Reply-To: <00b301caa90f$3074b940$9bfdf93e@user8459cef6fa> Message-ID: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org wrote: > Is that one license per item (e.g. we have two TV's and a > Sega Game Gear with (analogue) TV Tuner), or one license per house? Ring them and ask :-) Assuming single occupancy, then one per house. Tenants, students, hotels etc, and it becomes more complex. GameGear will presumably drop off the list of notifiable devices sometime after 2012 :-) BTW: can you successfully feed it from a set top box? Antonio From cclist at sydex.com Mon Feb 8 17:15:52 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 08 Feb 2010 15:15:52 -0800 Subject: Algol vs Fortran was RE: VHDL vs Verilog In-Reply-To: <466136.66822.qm@web110414.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: , <466136.66822.qm@web110414.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4B702AA8.25264.16716E1@cclist.sydex.com> On 8 Feb 2010 at 14:25, Russ Bartlett wrote: > Having used both - Algol!?? Algol people viewed Fortran people pretty > much the same way COBOL guys viewed RPG people.? The curious thing is that the "portmanteu" languages, such as PL/I (FORTRAN, COBOL, Algol) or Ada inevitably seem to be less popular than the languages they were intended to supercede. --Chuck From afra at aurigae.demon.co.uk Mon Feb 8 17:15:47 2010 From: afra at aurigae.demon.co.uk (Phill Harvey-Smith) Date: Mon, 08 Feb 2010 23:15:47 +0000 Subject: Algol vs Fortran was RE: VHDL vs Verilog In-Reply-To: <4B700D62.20109.F4BCA6@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4B6FD060.26695.66EBA@cclist.sydex.com>, <4B700D62.20109.F4BCA6@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4B709B23.5090003@aurigae.demon.co.uk> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 8 Feb 2010 at 18:42, Andy Holt wrote: > >> I remember the Algol-FORTRAN cross-pond war of the 60s and 70s. :) >> >> Now I wonder, "who won?" :) >> >> The easy answer is "C" :-) > > The curious thing is that the "structured" languages of the 70s > (Pascal and Modula-2) seem to have regressed to minority languages. Humm, tell that to the Delphi programmers.....as Delphi is basically Pascal with some extra beslls. Ok I agree probably not as widely used as C, but still pretty popular as far as I can tell. And yeah I'm biased as I do do a lot of my code in Delphi/Pascal though I also do a fair amount of C too, each has it's strengths and weeknesses but something I learnt a long time ago is there's no one tool for every situation. Besides if we are talking about lines of code written I'd have to say that probably COBOL would beat even C...... Cheers, Phill. -- Phill Harvey-Smith, Programmer, Hardware hacker, and general eccentric ! "You can twist perceptions, but reality won't budge" -- Rush. From afra at aurigae.demon.co.uk Mon Feb 8 17:21:29 2010 From: afra at aurigae.demon.co.uk (Phill Harvey-Smith) Date: Mon, 08 Feb 2010 23:21:29 +0000 Subject: 6829 was 6809 SBC In-Reply-To: <6DA351CFC7C.00000473n0body.h0me@inbox.com> References: <392936.72562.qm@web111516.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <6DA351CFC7C.00000473n0body.h0me@inbox.com> Message-ID: <4B709C79.80002@aurigae.demon.co.uk> N0body H0me wrote: > From what little I've managed to gather, the 6829 had some limitations that made it either difficult to use, or otherwise impractical for > many (if not most) applications. I've read someplace, for instance, that you were restricted to four tasks. I suspect for that reason, > they're rarely seen. They were rare even in their own time. > > A better approach, may be to create some hardware to emulate either > a Gimix or SwTPc style DAT (dynamic address translator). The key > element here, is that both of these are supported by some version > of OS/9. The Dragon Beta/128 prototype also has a DAT implemented with a couple of small SRAMS and a bunch of LS/PAL logic, used the output of one of it's PIAs as a task select, and supported 16 tasks, and again was supported by OS-9. For those who don't know the Dragon Beta/128 was a prototype machine that Dragon data where working on when they went bust, it was pretty impressive specs for a machine of it's sort, dual 68B09s, up to 768K of RAM etc. Details and pics here : http://www.dragondata.co.uk/ Cheers, Phill. -- Phill Harvey-Smith, Programmer, Hardware hacker, and general eccentric ! "You can twist perceptions, but reality won't budge" -- Rush. From afra at aurigae.demon.co.uk Mon Feb 8 17:30:40 2010 From: afra at aurigae.demon.co.uk (Phill Harvey-Smith) Date: Mon, 08 Feb 2010 23:30:40 +0000 Subject: TV Licensing (Re: cctech Digest, Vol 78, Issue 3) In-Reply-To: <00b301caa90f$3074b940$9bfdf93e@user8459cef6fa> References: <4EAC59415E584083A435637C481C7648@ANTONIOPC> <00b301caa90f$3074b940$9bfdf93e@user8459cef6fa> Message-ID: <4B709EA0.3040001@aurigae.demon.co.uk> > From: > To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" > > Sent: Sunday, February 07, 2010 7:37 PM > Subject: RE: cctech Digest, Vol 78, Issue 3 > > Oh, and you only need a licence to view content "live" (any contents, > not just BBC or even any UK channels, satellite stuff too ...) on > any device (TV, PC, phone, maybe even your fillings if you happen > to be an oddball synaesthete). Actually no, I believe it's a licence to recieve, not to view, which is why when you could still get a black and white licence at a cheaper price than colour, you still needed a colour license even if you had a black and white TV, if you also had a video recorder. The reason being that the video recorder could recieve and record a colour signal, even though you could only view it in black and white. Though that is a moot point now as I believe it's been about 5 years since the black and white license was phased out. Cheers. Phill. -- Phill Harvey-Smith, Programmer, Hardware hacker, and general eccentric ! "You can twist perceptions, but reality won't budge" -- Rush. From n0body.h0me at inbox.com Mon Feb 8 17:32:17 2010 From: n0body.h0me at inbox.com (N0body H0me) Date: Mon, 8 Feb 2010 15:32:17 -0800 Subject: 6809 SBC In-Reply-To: <4B708940.5090807@e-bbes.com> References: <4b6f512b.4030405@nktelco.net> <392936.72562.qm@web111516.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <6da351cfc7c.00000473n0body.h0me@inbox.com> Message-ID: <6EB080FA052.00000571n0body.h0me@inbox.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: emu at e-bbes.com > Sent: Mon, 08 Feb 2010 14:59:28 -0700 > To: > Subject: Re: 6809 SBC > > Ethan Dicks wrote: >> I'd never heard of it before today (I was into the 6502 then as now). >> Glancing at the datasheet, yes, there are registers to handle 4 tasks, >> but you can apparently stack up to 8 6829s in one system for 32 tasks. >> With 20 bits of memory addressing, it seems a reasonable balance (32 >> tasks in 1MB), but finding room on a board to stuff eight 40-pin DIPs >> between the CPU and memory seems the harder job. > > Just stack them ;-) > most signals are connected parallel ... I'd like to see that! :^) Seriously, though, I don't think Moto had general-purpose operating system memory management in mind when they designed that part. The feeling I get is that it was seriously slanted towards embedded applications, where the size and number of tasks would be more fixed. While it's true that OS/9 can be (and has been) embedded, I suspect that the interest here would be to use it as a 'general purpose' OS for different applications. -Jeff ____________________________________________________________ FREE ONLINE PHOTOSHARING - Share your photos online with your friends and family! Visit http://www.inbox.com/photosharing to find out more! From cclist at sydex.com Mon Feb 8 17:48:41 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 08 Feb 2010 15:48:41 -0800 Subject: TV Licensing (Re: cctech Digest, Vol 78, Issue 3) In-Reply-To: <4B709EA0.3040001@aurigae.demon.co.uk> References: <4EAC59415E584083A435637C481C7648@ANTONIOPC>, <00b301caa90f$3074b940$9bfdf93e@user8459cef6fa>, <4B709EA0.3040001@aurigae.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <4B703259.3622.1852304@cclist.sydex.com> On 8 Feb 2010 at 23:30, Phill Harvey-Smith wrote: > Actually no, I believe it's a licence to recieve, not to view, which > is why when you could still get a black and white licence at a cheaper > price than colour, you still needed a colour license even if you had a > black and white TV, if you also had a video recorder. The reason being > that the video recorder could recieve and record a colour signal, even > though you could only view it in black and white. > > Though that is a moot point now as I believe it's been about 5 years > since the black and white license was phased out. Really? According to this: http://www.tvlicensing.co.uk/check-if-you-need-one/ The B&W animal is still available. You may have to special-order it, however. --Chuck From n0body.h0me at inbox.com Mon Feb 8 17:50:33 2010 From: n0body.h0me at inbox.com (N0body H0me) Date: Mon, 8 Feb 2010 15:50:33 -0800 Subject: Algol vs Fortran was RE: VHDL vs Verilog In-Reply-To: <4B708A9C.9080005@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4b6fd060.26695.66eba@cclist.sydex.com> <4b700d62.20109.f4bca6@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <6ED9562426E.0000058Dn0body.h0me@inbox.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca > Sent: Mon, 08 Feb 2010 15:05:16 -0700 > To: > Subject: Re: Algol vs Fortran was RE: VHDL vs Verilog > > Chuck Guzis wrote: > >> Let's see--the last standard revision to FORTRAN was Fortran 2003; >> that to Algol was, what, Algol-68? > > Umm I still like Fortran IV. I know you can get II or IV for the PDP8. Here, here. The thing that impressed me about FORTRAN (well, as as science major, anyway) was that it could do complex numbers as a *NATIVE* datatype!! Now, I know for you OOP and C++ guys, custom, exotic datatypes are a dime a dozen. But in 1980, I was sure glad I could do complex math without all of the extra baggage that would have been necessary if I had to use, say, BASIC-Plus. Now I'm all nostalgic. Time to dredge up the the ol' 11/73 from storage . . . . -Jeff From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Feb 8 17:58:57 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 8 Feb 2010 18:58:57 -0500 Subject: Algol vs Fortran was RE: VHDL vs Verilog In-Reply-To: <6ED9562426E.0000058Dn0body.h0me@inbox.com> References: <4b6fd060.26695.66eba@cclist.sydex.com> <4b700d62.20109.f4bca6@cclist.sydex.com> <6ED9562426E.0000058Dn0body.h0me@inbox.com> Message-ID: On Feb 8, 2010, at 6:50 PM, N0body H0me wrote: >>> Let's see--the last standard revision to FORTRAN was Fortran 2003; >>> that to Algol was, what, Algol-68? >> >> Umm I still like Fortran IV. I know you can get II or IV for the >> PDP8. > > Here, here. The thing that impressed me about FORTRAN (well, as > as science major, anyway) was that it could do complex numbers as > a *NATIVE* datatype!! Now, I know for you OOP and C++ guys, custom, > exotic datatypes are a dime a dozen. But in 1980, I was sure glad > I could do complex math without all of the extra baggage that would > have been necessary if I had to use, say, BASIC-Plus. Yeah, but how often do those C++ custom exotic datatypes map to real datatypes supported by the hardware? (in other words, which ones will actually be FAST?) > Now I'm all nostalgic. Time to dredge up the the ol' 11/73 from > storage . . . . That sounds like the Right Thing To Do(tm). -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cclist at sydex.com Mon Feb 8 18:07:54 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 08 Feb 2010 16:07:54 -0800 Subject: TV Licensing (Re: cctech Digest, Vol 78, Issue 3) In-Reply-To: <4B709EA0.3040001@aurigae.demon.co.uk> References: <4EAC59415E584083A435637C481C7648@ANTONIOPC>, <00b301caa90f$3074b940$9bfdf93e@user8459cef6fa>, <4B709EA0.3040001@aurigae.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <4B7036DA.21406.196BABD@cclist.sydex.com> What I find really strange is this: "A blind concession TV Licence costs ?71.25 for colour and ?24.00 for a black and white TV Licence." --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Mon Feb 8 18:27:50 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 08 Feb 2010 16:27:50 -0800 Subject: Algol vs Fortran was RE: VHDL vs Verilog In-Reply-To: References: <4b6fd060.26695.66eba@cclist.sydex.com>, <6ED9562426E.0000058Dn0body.h0me@inbox.com>, Message-ID: <4B703B86.12802.1A8F87B@cclist.sydex.com> On 8 Feb 2010 at 18:58, somebody wrote: > > Here, here. The thing that impressed me about FORTRAN (well, as as > > science major, anyway) was that it could do complex numbers as a > > *NATIVE* datatype!! Now, I know for you OOP and C++ guys, custom, > > exotic datatypes are a dime a dozen. But in 1980, I was sure glad I > > could do complex math without all of the extra baggage that would > > have been necessary if I had to use, say, BASIC-Plus. Consider the vintage of FORTRAN--mainframes did not universally enjoy computation in binary, much less ones' versus twos' complement. Character sets were of differing content, collating sequence and character length. Recursion as a permissable construct did not enter the language until fairly late (some systems lacked native stack facilities; the CDC 6000 series, like the PDP-8, simply stored a jump to the return address at the entry point of a subroutine). I/O implementation could be wildly different. ANSI X3 committee meetings were more like political conventions in some respects. I recall that when vector language features were being proposed for Fortran 8X (to become Fortran 90), the DEC and IBM contingent threatened to walk out of the proceedings because the committee decided not to simply assume IBM VECTRAN as its basis. It's really amazing that FORTRAN/Fortran is still around. --Chuck From afra at aurigae.demon.co.uk Mon Feb 8 18:32:54 2010 From: afra at aurigae.demon.co.uk (Phill Harvey-Smith) Date: Tue, 09 Feb 2010 00:32:54 +0000 Subject: TV Licensing (Re: cctech Digest, Vol 78, Issue 3) In-Reply-To: <4B703259.3622.1852304@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4EAC59415E584083A435637C481C7648@ANTONIOPC>, <00b301caa90f$3074b940$9bfdf93e@user8459cef6fa>, <4B709EA0.3040001@aurigae.demon.co.uk> <4B703259.3622.1852304@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4B70AD36.40700@aurigae.demon.co.uk> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 8 Feb 2010 at 23:30, Phill Harvey-Smith wrote: >> Though that is a moot point now as I believe it's been about 5 years >> since the black and white license was phased out. > > Really? > > According to this: > > http://www.tvlicensing.co.uk/check-if-you-need-one/ > > The B&W animal is still available. You may have to special-order it, > however. Well I seem to remember reading a story somewhere that they where phasing them out obviously they didn't in the end, but cirtainly they're no longer as available. Also they seem to have over doubled in price since last time I had a B&W it was only ?21ish in 1992 :) Cheers. Phill. -- Phill Harvey-Smith, Programmer, Hardware hacker, and general eccentric ! "You can twist perceptions, but reality won't budge" -- Rush. From n0body.h0me at inbox.com Mon Feb 8 18:32:10 2010 From: n0body.h0me at inbox.com (N0body H0me) Date: Mon, 8 Feb 2010 16:32:10 -0800 Subject: Algol vs Fortran was RE: VHDL vs Verilog In-Reply-To: References: <4b6fd060.26695.66eba@cclist.sydex.com> <6ed9562426e.0000058dn0body.h0me@inbox.com> <4b700d62.20109.f4bca6@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <6F365783BCA.000005DDn0body.h0me@inbox.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: mcguire at neurotica.com > Sent: Mon, 8 Feb 2010 18:58:57 -0500 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Algol vs Fortran was RE: VHDL vs Verilog > > On Feb 8, 2010, at 6:50 PM, N0body H0me wrote: >>>> Let's see--the last standard revision to FORTRAN was Fortran 2003; >>>> that to Algol was, what, Algol-68? >>> >>> Umm I still like Fortran IV. I know you can get II or IV for the >>> PDP8. >> >> Here, here. The thing that impressed me about FORTRAN (well, as >> as science major, anyway) was that it could do complex numbers as >> a *NATIVE* datatype!! Now, I know for you OOP and C++ guys, custom, >> exotic datatypes are a dime a dozen. But in 1980, I was sure glad >> I could do complex math without all of the extra baggage that would >> have been necessary if I had to use, say, BASIC-Plus. > > Yeah, but how often do those C++ custom exotic datatypes map to > real datatypes supported by the hardware? (in other words, which > ones will actually be FAST?) That's certainly an issue. I wonder how many applications are slower and more overweight due to their being crafted with OOP than they would be if they were coded using more traditional methods. Our school didn't have a float point unit on our PDP-11; I was *certain* that DEC's FORTRAN compiler could generate much faster code than anything I could bodge together using BASIC (of any stripe), and I could code it in less time. My principal fascination with FORTRAN from the beginning, was that it had this 'purpose built' feature to easily handle complex math (and it did it quite well, IIRC). I have great respect for individuals who insist on purpose-built tools. -Jeff > >> Now I'm all nostalgic. Time to dredge up the the ol' 11/73 from >> storage . . . . > > That sounds like the Right Thing To Do(tm). > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire > Port Charlotte, FL From afra at aurigae.demon.co.uk Mon Feb 8 18:35:10 2010 From: afra at aurigae.demon.co.uk (Phill Harvey-Smith) Date: Tue, 09 Feb 2010 00:35:10 +0000 Subject: TV Licensing (Re: cctech Digest, Vol 78, Issue 3) In-Reply-To: <4B7036DA.21406.196BABD@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4EAC59415E584083A435637C481C7648@ANTONIOPC>, <00b301caa90f$3074b940$9bfdf93e@user8459cef6fa>, <4B709EA0.3040001@aurigae.demon.co.uk> <4B7036DA.21406.196BABD@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4B70ADBE.3080905@aurigae.demon.co.uk> Chuck Guzis wrote: > What I find really strange is this: > > "A blind concession TV Licence costs ?71.25 for colour and ?24.00 for > a black and white TV Licence." Well presumably if you say live in a house with a sighted person they are still capable of watching in colour or black and white, but if you are the person paying the license but blind. Just a guess that is :) Phill. -- Phill Harvey-Smith, Programmer, Hardware hacker, and general eccentric ! "You can twist perceptions, but reality won't budge" -- Rush. From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Feb 8 19:03:21 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 8 Feb 2010 17:03:21 -0800 (PST) Subject: Algol vs Fortran was RE: VHDL vs Verilog In-Reply-To: <4B700D62.20109.F4BCA6@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4B6FD060.26695.66EBA@cclist.sydex.com>, <4B700D62.20109.F4BCA6@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20100208170155.U71439@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 8 Feb 2010, Chuck Guzis wrote: > If anything, the language battles taught me that it's possible to > write unintelligible code in *any* language. "A REAL programmer can write a FORTRAN program in any language." From n0body.h0me at inbox.com Mon Feb 8 19:19:04 2010 From: n0body.h0me at inbox.com (N0body H0me) Date: Mon, 8 Feb 2010 17:19:04 -0800 Subject: Algol vs Fortran was RE: VHDL vs Verilog In-Reply-To: <4B703B86.12802.1A8F87B@cclist.sydex.com> References: <6ed9562426e.0000058dn0body.h0me@inbox.com> <4b6fd060.26695.66eba@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <6F9F2A919A0.00000635n0body.h0me@inbox.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cclist at sydex.com > Sent: Mon, 08 Feb 2010 16:27:50 -0800 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Algol vs Fortran was RE: VHDL vs Verilog > > On 8 Feb 2010 at 18:58, somebody wrote: > >>> Here, here. The thing that impressed me about FORTRAN (well, as as >>> science major, anyway) was that it could do complex numbers as a >>> *NATIVE* datatype!! Now, I know for you OOP and C++ guys, custom, >>> exotic datatypes are a dime a dozen. But in 1980, I was sure glad I >>> could do complex math without all of the extra baggage that would >>> have been necessary if I had to use, say, BASIC-Plus. > > Consider the vintage of FORTRAN--mainframes did not universally enjoy > computation in binary, much less ones' versus twos' complement. > Character sets were of differing content, collating sequence and > character length. Recursion as a permissable construct did not enter > the language until fairly late (some systems lacked native stack > facilities; the CDC 6000 series, like the PDP-8, simply stored a jump > to the return address at the entry point of a subroutine). I/O > implementation could be wildly different. Point taken: There is only so much you can do to facilitate portability when such fundamental differences exist. This diversity doesn't exist today, and I think we are the worse for it. I suspect each of those approaches gave their machines some advantage or suitability for different tasks. Today, we just throw more MIPS at our one-cpu-fits-all approach. > ANSI X3 committee meetings were more like political conventions in > some respects. I recall that when vector language features were being > proposed for Fortran 8X (to become Fortran 90), the DEC and IBM > contingent threatened to walk out of the proceedings because the > committee decided not to simply assume IBM VECTRAN as its basis. Sigh. That's what happens when the focus shifts away from the science of computing and on to marketing. I'll never deny marketing's role in making computing accessible to everyone; but I'm holding it accountable for seriously messing up good ideas and consigning them to oblivion because they don't think it will sell. > It's really amazing that FORTRAN/Fortran is still around. I think maybe that speaks more of the solidity of the earlier implementations of that language, rather than 'advances' made since the PC era. -Jeff ____________________________________________________________ Receive Notifications of Incoming Messages Easily monitor multiple email accounts & access them with a click. Visit http://www.inbox.com/notifier and check it out! From arcbe2001 at yahoo.com Mon Feb 8 19:39:34 2010 From: arcbe2001 at yahoo.com (Russ Bartlett) Date: Mon, 8 Feb 2010 17:39:34 -0800 (PST) Subject: Algol vs Fortran was RE: VHDL vs Verilog In-Reply-To: <4B702AA8.25264.16716E1@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <34486.5163.qm@web110410.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> A lot of the earlier application software was written in FORTRAN.? I first used it on an IBM 1620, and 1130.?? FORTRAN had the weight of IBM behind it.? I'd say Algol was far more influential on the design of other languages and for that reason I think it was a better language.? Algol's I/O sucked though. ?? As I recall the Elliot 803 had an Algol compiler.??? IBM had a lot sway on the market; FORTRAN, PL/I and RPG.?? --- On Mon, 2/8/10, Chuck Guzis wrote: From: Chuck Guzis Subject: Re: Algol vs Fortran was RE: VHDL vs Verilog To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Date: Monday, February 8, 2010, 6:15 PM On 8 Feb 2010 at 14:25, Russ Bartlett wrote: > Having used both - Algol!?? Algol people viewed Fortran people pretty > much the same way COBOL guys viewed RPG people.? The curious thing is that the "portmanteu" languages, such as PL/I (FORTRAN, COBOL, Algol) or Ada inevitably seem to be less popular than the languages they were intended to supercede. --Chuck From IanK at vulcan.com Mon Feb 8 22:23:45 2010 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Mon, 8 Feb 2010 20:23:45 -0800 Subject: Algol vs Fortran was RE: VHDL vs Verilog In-Reply-To: <4B703B86.12802.1A8F87B@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4b6fd060.26695.66eba@cclist.sydex.com>, <6ED9562426E.0000058Dn0body.h0me@inbox.com>, , <4B703B86.12802.1A8F87B@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: FORTRAN is an example of a targeted solution to a problem space and, as such, is still quite useful. I consider C to be my 'mother tongue' (despite having learned FORTRAN years earlier), but if I were doing straight numeric work I'd much rather do it in something like FORTRAN because I don't have to spend my time building program 'infrastructure' instead of writing math algorithms. -- Ian ________________________________________ From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chuck Guzis [cclist at sydex.com] Sent: Monday, February 08, 2010 4:27 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Algol vs Fortran was RE: VHDL vs Verilog On 8 Feb 2010 at 18:58, somebody wrote: > > Here, here. The thing that impressed me about FORTRAN (well, as as > > science major, anyway) was that it could do complex numbers as a > > *NATIVE* datatype!! Now, I know for you OOP and C++ guys, custom, > > exotic datatypes are a dime a dozen. But in 1980, I was sure glad I > > could do complex math without all of the extra baggage that would > > have been necessary if I had to use, say, BASIC-Plus. Consider the vintage of FORTRAN--mainframes did not universally enjoy computation in binary, much less ones' versus twos' complement. Character sets were of differing content, collating sequence and character length. Recursion as a permissable construct did not enter the language until fairly late (some systems lacked native stack facilities; the CDC 6000 series, like the PDP-8, simply stored a jump to the return address at the entry point of a subroutine). I/O implementation could be wildly different. ANSI X3 committee meetings were more like political conventions in some respects. I recall that when vector language features were being proposed for Fortran 8X (to become Fortran 90), the DEC and IBM contingent threatened to walk out of the proceedings because the committee decided not to simply assume IBM VECTRAN as its basis. It's really amazing that FORTRAN/Fortran is still around. --Chuck From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Feb 8 23:27:08 2010 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Mon, 08 Feb 2010 22:27:08 -0700 Subject: 6809 SBC In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B70F22C.9040007@jetnet.ab.ca> Mark Tapley wrote: > might be a useful alternative to eBay. Refurbished CoCo3's are among the > other goodies on the site. For the "power user", you can get 512k memory > expansions, a serial link to your PC to use as disk storage > ("Drivewire"), NitOS-9 in ROM, 6309 CPU upgrade, IDE or SCSI adaptors, > etc. etc. What about application software? From cclist at sydex.com Tue Feb 9 00:00:57 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 08 Feb 2010 22:00:57 -0800 Subject: Algol vs Fortran was RE: VHDL vs Verilog In-Reply-To: References: <4b6fd060.26695.66eba@cclist.sydex.com>, <4B703B86.12802.1A8F87B@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4B708999.759.2D9F245@cclist.sydex.com> On 8 Feb 2010 at 20:23, Ian King wrote: > FORTRAN is an example of a targeted solution to a problem space and, > as such, is still quite useful. I consider C to be my 'mother tongue' > (despite having learned FORTRAN years earlier), but if I were doing > straight numeric work I'd much rather do it in something like FORTRAN > because I don't have to spend my time building program > 'infrastructure' instead of writing math algorithms. Few remember that many early microprocessor cross-assemblers were written in FORTRAN to execute on whatever mini- or mainframe you had available, be it a Data General Nova or CDC 7600. Inevitably, these programs would start with a READ of a statement using A1 format into an array to obtain the character set of the host. Character manipulation was then handled by referencing this array. At the time, FORTRAN was probably the most portable language that there was, as long as one wasn't tempted to give in to using a vendor's unique language extensions. Was COBOL 75 the first ANSI language standard that prohibited such extensions? Not that anyone paid much attention other than implementing a "strict ANSI checking" compiler switch. --Chuck From pete at dunnington.plus.com Tue Feb 9 01:31:22 2010 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Tue, 09 Feb 2010 07:31:22 +0000 Subject: TV Licensing (Re: cctech Digest, Vol 78, Issue 3) In-Reply-To: <4B70ADBE.3080905@aurigae.demon.co.uk> References: <4EAC59415E584083A435637C481C7648@ANTONIOPC>, <00b301caa90f$3074b940$9bfdf93e@user8459cef6fa>, <4B709EA0.3040001@aurigae.demon.co.uk> <4B7036DA.21406.196BABD@cclist.sydex.com> <4B70ADBE.3080905@aurigae.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <4B710F4A.3020500@dunnington.plus.com> On 09/02/2010 00:35, Phill Harvey-Smith wrote: > Chuck Guzis wrote: >> What I find really strange is this: >> >> "A blind concession TV Licence costs ?71.25 for colour and ?24.00 for >> a black and white TV Licence." > > Well presumably if you say live in a house with a sighted person they > are still capable of watching in colour or black and white, but if you > are the person paying the license but blind. True, but the real reason for the concession is that in this case "blind" includes many that the rest of us might describe as "partially sighted". So those who can't take full advantage of the full colour moving picture experience pay less. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From andyh at andyh-rayleigh.freeserve.co.uk Tue Feb 9 00:43:07 2010 From: andyh at andyh-rayleigh.freeserve.co.uk (Andy Holt) Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2010 06:43:07 -0000 Subject: Algol vs Fortran was RE: VHDL vs Verilog In-Reply-To: <20100208170155.U71439@shell.lmi.net> References: , <4B6FD060.26695.66EBA@cclist.sydex.com>, <4B700D62.20109.F4BCA6@cclist.sydex.com> <20100208170155.U71439@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4C0F05A8DE57495E8C984F868CF52F48@xp32vm> >>>> "A REAL programmer can write a FORTRAN program in any language." <<<< But has to really work at it to do so in a functional language :-) [perhaps why I stick to imperative languages] From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Feb 9 02:02:01 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2010 03:02:01 -0500 Subject: Algol vs Fortran was RE: VHDL vs Verilog In-Reply-To: <6F365783BCA.000005DDn0body.h0me@inbox.com> References: <4b6fd060.26695.66eba@cclist.sydex.com> <6ed9562426e.0000058dn0body.h0me@inbox.com> <4b700d62.20109.f4bca6@cclist.sydex.com> <6F365783BCA.000005DDn0body.h0me@inbox.com> Message-ID: <0A82C779-29AA-41C6-BAF2-C1571B808D0C@neurotica.com> On Feb 8, 2010, at 7:32 PM, N0body H0me wrote: >>> Here, here. The thing that impressed me about FORTRAN (well, as >>> as science major, anyway) was that it could do complex numbers as >>> a *NATIVE* datatype!! Now, I know for you OOP and C++ guys, custom, >>> exotic datatypes are a dime a dozen. But in 1980, I was sure glad >>> I could do complex math without all of the extra baggage that would >>> have been necessary if I had to use, say, BASIC-Plus. >> >> Yeah, but how often do those C++ custom exotic datatypes map to >> real datatypes supported by the hardware? (in other words, which >> ones will actually be FAST?) > > That's certainly an issue. I wonder how many applications are > slower and more overweight due to their being crafted with OOP than > they would be if they were coded using more traditional methods. "More traditional methods"? Just "the way processors execute code" would be a good start. Processors aren't object-oriented in nature. This is one of the reasons why we have computers with multi- GHz processors that barely get out of their own way. The constructs commonly used in OO programming don't come anywhere close to mapping to hardware efficiently. > Our school didn't have a float point unit on our PDP-11; I was > *certain* that DEC's FORTRAN compiler could generate much faster > code than anything I could bodge together using BASIC (of any stripe), > and I could code it in less time. Indeed. What model of -11 was it? My first PDP-11, an 11/34a around 1985 or so, came with an FP-11A. I spent many a late night hacking on fun stuff like fractal algorithms and such, much to my grandmother's annoyance. It'd be 2AM on a school night, she'd trudge by my bedroom door in her slippers and bathrobe, and I'd look up from my terminal and see her glaring at me, her annoyed face illuminated only by the "ready" lights of the RL02s and RK07, and the KY11-LB displays on the 11/34a. The FP-11A was one of my favorite parts of that system. > My principal fascination with FORTRAN from the beginning, was > that it had this 'purpose built' feature to easily handle complex > math (and it did it quite well, IIRC). I have great respect for > individuals who insist on purpose-built tools. It was built to solve problems that often involved complex numbers. I respect it for the same reason. I'm also impressed with it because it's *fast* for Big Math. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From hachti at hachti.de Tue Feb 9 03:03:45 2010 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Tue, 09 Feb 2010 10:03:45 +0100 Subject: Selling Calcomp 565 plotter In-Reply-To: References: <201002021239.53154.pat@computer-refuge.org> <36C3D71D-EC51-4CC0-9ED4-5D59122AEFED@neurotica.com> <4B6F74B6.4050708@hachti.de> <4B707324.5050906@hachti.de> Message-ID: <4B7124F1.8040604@hachti.de> > Oops. I didn't actually look at the auction. The solenoid assembly > would be impossible to find and very difficult to fabricate. I should put one of those on eBay... The one who pays $200 for the plotter will probably pay some $100 more for the pen holder! > I wonder how difficult it'd be to resurface the drum? Hm, if you don't insist on a perfect aluminium surface....like me.... I used the stuff you use for your car to fill some holes on a 563 drum. Looks ugly, feels smooth - and works again. Regards, Philipp -- http://www.hachti.de From hachti at hachti.de Tue Feb 9 03:43:09 2010 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Tue, 09 Feb 2010 10:43:09 +0100 Subject: cpld design In-Reply-To: <4B700B94.19685.EDB1AB@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4B6EEE12.1055.1E449E7@cclist.sydex.com>, <4B7069A0.8070605@hachti.de> <4B700B94.19685.EDB1AB@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4B712E2D.6030109@hachti.de> Hm....! >> I adore it! > > Your first programmig language was probably Algol. :) (or Pascal or > Modula-2, depending upon your vintage). My vintage is 1978.... So... Ok, you're probably right with Pascal for me. But to be 100% correct: Omicron Basic on Atari ST, then GfA-Basic. Then Microsoft QBasic on my 286 notebook. Turbo Pascal (and traces of Delphi) followed. Learned OOP and Java at University (using commandline javac and editing with Emacs). First C in autumn of 2000 as I remember. :-) VHDL in conjunction with the XEmacs VHDL mode is unbeatable! Regards, Philipp -- http://www.hachti.de From hachti at hachti.de Tue Feb 9 03:52:23 2010 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Tue, 09 Feb 2010 10:52:23 +0100 Subject: Algol vs Fortran was RE: VHDL vs Verilog In-Reply-To: <4C0F05A8DE57495E8C984F868CF52F48@xp32vm> References: , <4B6FD060.26695.66EBA@cclist.sydex.com>, <4B700D62.20109.F4BCA6@cclist.sydex.com> <20100208170155.U71439@shell.lmi.net> <4C0F05A8DE57495E8C984F868CF52F48@xp32vm> Message-ID: <4B713057.4040301@hachti.de> > But has to really work at it to do so in a functional language :-) > [perhaps why I stick to imperative languages] PostScript I like do Postscript let's so [sorry, grammar was lost somewhere on the way to stack programming] -- http://www.hachti.de From robert at irrelevant.com Tue Feb 9 03:59:46 2010 From: robert at irrelevant.com (Rob) Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2010 09:59:46 +0000 Subject: Anyone with 8" drives , UK ? Message-ID: <2f806cd71002090159y18db212cr9ba94b907df8a8d1@mail.gmail.com> Hi All. I've been quiet for far too long on this list. Had set myself to no-mail because of lack of time.... back now. Recently, I've been setting up www.viewdata.org.uk to try and remember and resurrect as much of the old BT Prestel and other period viewdata systems as I can. (For those who don't know, viewdata was a 1970s British Post Office (Later British Telecom) invention that allowed subscribers to access news, information, email, downloadable software, chatlines, etc etc. All in a 40x25 display with colour and block graphics. It was big in the 1980s, and gone by 1994... Minitel in france was a derivation, and apart from some specialist closed-access applications, about the only example that survives.) anyway... I've found somebody that has an archive of their pages from Prestel, and we'd both liketo get them up on the site. The snag, for me, is that a lot of it is on 8" discs, from a Technologics(?) system. The photographs of the discs I have seen show them labelled as 48tpi, soft sectored. The positive point is that he still has the original computer, but "it's not been switched on for 20 years" so I'm hesitant on telling him to try it...! So. Is there anybody in the UK (Birmingham or Manchester areas) that has facilities to read 8" discs and drop the contents (straight sector by sector image would be fine if it's not in a common format) onto some more modern media? Or someone who knows about old Technologics machines (I'd not heard of it before.) and can check this one out.. Failing all that.. anybody got a spare drive that I might be able to link up to a machine I do have? (PCs and Acorn machines). Thanks in advance! Rob. From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Tue Feb 9 03:10:08 2010 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Tue, 09 Feb 2010 01:10:08 -0800 Subject: Algol vs Fortran was RE: VHDL vs Verilog In-Reply-To: <0A82C779-29AA-41C6-BAF2-C1571B808D0C@neurotica.com> References: <4b6fd060.26695.66eba@cclist.sydex.com> <6ed9562426e.0000058dn0body.h0me@inbox.com> <4b700d62.20109.f4bca6@cclist.sydex.com> <6F365783BCA.000005DDn0body.h0me@inbox.com> <0A82C779-29AA-41C6-BAF2-C1571B808D0C@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4B712670.3050201@mail.msu.edu> Dave McGuire wrote: > On Feb 8, 2010, at 7:32 PM, N0body H0me wrote: >> >> That's certainly an issue. I wonder how many applications are slower >> and more overweight due to their being crafted with OOP than they >> would be if they were coded using more traditional methods. > > "More traditional methods"? Just "the way processors execute code" > would be a good start. Processors aren't object-oriented in nature. > This is one of the reasons why we have computers with multi-GHz > processors that barely get out of their own way. The constructs > commonly used in OO programming don't come anywhere close to mapping > to hardware efficiently. What "commonly used" constructs are these that are so horribly inefficient that they would make a multi-GHz processor stumble? (And in what language(s)?) - Josh > > -Dave > From nico at farumdata.dk Tue Feb 9 05:19:27 2010 From: nico at farumdata.dk (Nico de Jong) Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2010 12:19:27 +0100 Subject: Anyone with 8" drives , UK ? References: <2f806cd71002090159y18db212cr9ba94b907df8a8d1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <514D6622B4C04CEC9DF90DF629F07904@udvikling> From: "Rob" Subject: Anyone with 8" drives , UK ? > Hi All. > > > Recently, I've been setting up www.viewdata.org.uk to try and remember > and resurrect as much of the old BT Prestel and other period viewdata > systems as I can. > anyway... I've found somebody that has an archive of their pages from > Prestel, and we'd both liketo get them up on the site. The snag, for > me, is that a lot of it is on 8" discs, from a Technologics(?) system. > The photographs of the discs I have seen show them labelled as 48tpi, > soft sectored. > > So. Is there anybody in the UK (Birmingham or Manchester areas) Would Denmark be ok, "worst case" ? > that > has facilities to read 8" discs and drop the contents (straight sector > by sector image would be fine if it's not in a common format) onto > some more modern media? > > Failing all that.. anybody got a spare drive that I might be able to > link up to a machine I do have? (PCs and Acorn machines). > I have some drives, but hooking it up to a modern PC is not easily done. Ideally, you would find e.g. a '486 and a MicroSolutions IV card. For the 8" drive (at least the ones I have), you need a +24VDC for the motor, and the power connectors can be a problem. I have 3 or 4 drives, and all connectors are different... If you dare sending the disks by registered mail or courier, I'd be happy to give it a try. Nico From andy at flirble.org Tue Feb 9 05:46:05 2010 From: andy at flirble.org (Andrew Back) Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2010 11:46:05 +0000 Subject: Anyone with 8" drives , UK ? In-Reply-To: <514D6622B4C04CEC9DF90DF629F07904@udvikling> References: <2f806cd71002090159y18db212cr9ba94b907df8a8d1@mail.gmail.com> <514D6622B4C04CEC9DF90DF629F07904@udvikling> Message-ID: <20100209114605.GB25652@plum.flirble.org> The National Museum of Computing at Bletchley have machines with 8" drives. IIRC a Research Machines 380Z, for one, and I'm sure there will be others. They might be interested in a copy of the software for their archives too. Cheers, Andrew On (12:19 09/02/10), Nico de Jong wrote: > From: "Rob" > Subject: Anyone with 8" drives , UK ? > > > >Hi All. > > > > > >Recently, I've been setting up www.viewdata.org.uk to try and remember > >and resurrect as much of the old BT Prestel and other period viewdata > >systems as I can. > > >anyway... I've found somebody that has an archive of their pages from > >Prestel, and we'd both liketo get them up on the site. The snag, for > >me, is that a lot of it is on 8" discs, from a Technologics(?) system. > >The photographs of the discs I have seen show them labelled as 48tpi, > >soft sectored. > > > >So. Is there anybody in the UK (Birmingham or Manchester areas) > > Would Denmark be ok, "worst case" ? > > >that > >has facilities to read 8" discs and drop the contents (straight sector > >by sector image would be fine if it's not in a common format) onto > >some more modern media? > > > >Failing all that.. anybody got a spare drive that I might be able to > >link up to a machine I do have? (PCs and Acorn machines). > > > > I have some drives, but hooking it up to a modern PC is not easily done. > Ideally, you would find e.g. a '486 and a MicroSolutions IV card. > For the 8" drive (at least the ones I have), you need a +24VDC for the > motor, and the power connectors can be a problem. I have 3 or 4 drives, > and all connectors are different... > > If you dare sending the disks by registered mail or courier, I'd be > happy to give it a try. > > Nico -- Andrew Back a at smokebelch.org From robert at irrelevant.com Tue Feb 9 07:48:01 2010 From: robert at irrelevant.com (Rob) Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2010 13:48:01 +0000 Subject: Anyone with 8" drives , UK ? In-Reply-To: <20100209114605.GB25652@plum.flirble.org> References: <2f806cd71002090159y18db212cr9ba94b907df8a8d1@mail.gmail.com> <514D6622B4C04CEC9DF90DF629F07904@udvikling> <20100209114605.GB25652@plum.flirble.org> Message-ID: <2f806cd71002090548t6406ba46t2fa884fed09ace9b@mail.gmail.com> On 09/02/2010, Andrew Back wrote: > The National Museum of Computing at Bletchley have machines with 8" drives. > IIRC a Research Machines 380Z, for one, and I'm sure there will be others. > They might be interested in a copy of the software for their archives too. Hmm. They are certainly a possibility; I was hoping for somebody or someone closer to me, or the discs, though.. I do know they are interested in having some sort of system up and running to demo viewdata, although I don't know if the original machine I know about had any form of host on it, or if it was just an off-line editing system. It's more the data I'm interested in, but of course the software is an interest in itself. Irritating in a way - I just remembered where I'd seen an abandoned machine with 8" drives that was a memory niggling me: in the workshop of a former employer that has subsequently gone bust, and it would have been getting on for 20 years ago anyway! Thanks.. Rob From pat at computer-refuge.org Tue Feb 9 08:14:28 2010 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2010 09:14:28 -0500 Subject: Algol vs Fortran was RE: VHDL vs Verilog In-Reply-To: <0A82C779-29AA-41C6-BAF2-C1571B808D0C@neurotica.com> References: <4b6fd060.26695.66eba@cclist.sydex.com> <6F365783BCA.000005DDn0body.h0me@inbox.com> <0A82C779-29AA-41C6-BAF2-C1571B808D0C@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <201002090914.28688.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Tuesday 09 February 2010, Dave McGuire wrote: > On Feb 8, 2010, at 7:32 PM, N0body H0me wrote: > >>> Here, here. The thing that impressed me about FORTRAN (well, as > >>> as science major, anyway) was that it could do complex numbers as > >>> a *NATIVE* datatype!! Now, I know for you OOP and C++ guys, > >>> custom, exotic datatypes are a dime a dozen. But in 1980, I was > >>> sure glad I could do complex math without all of the extra > >>> baggage that would have been necessary if I had to use, say, > >>> BASIC-Plus. > >> > >> Yeah, but how often do those C++ custom exotic datatypes map to > >> real datatypes supported by the hardware? (in other words, which > >> ones will actually be FAST?) > > > > That's certainly an issue. I wonder how many applications are > > slower and more overweight due to their being crafted with OOP than > > they would be if they were coded using more traditional methods. > > "More traditional methods"? Just "the way processors execute > code" would be a good start. Processors aren't object-oriented in > nature. This is one of the reasons why we have computers with multi- > GHz processors that barely get out of their own way. The constructs > commonly used in OO programming don't come anywhere close to mapping > to hardware efficiently. But, isn't the point of programming languages to make it easier for the programmer to create programs? Computers are fast; people are slow. Have you ever tried writing code against GTK (not-quite-OOP jammed into C) vs Qt (real OOP using C++)? GTK is such a pile of sh*t to try to write code for, in my opinion. Now, I'm not saying that I appreciate OOP in every case, but it seems to be darn useful when writing GUI-based applications. Oh, and don't forget that most of the code on running your favorite Mac was written in Objective C... Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From pat at computer-refuge.org Tue Feb 9 08:28:03 2010 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2010 09:28:03 -0500 Subject: Selling Calcomp 565 plotter In-Reply-To: <4B6F74B6.4050708@hachti.de> References: <201002021239.53154.pat@computer-refuge.org> <36C3D71D-EC51-4CC0-9ED4-5D59122AEFED@neurotica.com> <4B6F74B6.4050708@hachti.de> Message-ID: <201002090928.03169.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Sunday 07 February 2010, Philipp Hachtmann wrote: > > URRRRRRRRR!!! Wantwantwant! Being broke SUCKS! > > the plotter is in poor condition: > 1. The drum is damaged. You'll probably have to fix that before it > will be able to plot properly. There's a small dent, less than 1mm deep. The shadows in the photo make it look bigger than it actually is. Some Bondo car-body filler would probably take care of that in short order. > 2. It is dirty. Oh noes! It's old, what do you expect? I've found that spending time on cleaning things I put on ebay (beyond wipe the dust off with a rag) rarely helps the sale price. > 3. There are no cables. Cables are harder to find than the plotter > itself. If you don't have the cables, just replace the connector with something else. If you don't want to do that, then just appreciate the fact that you have a computer artifact from over 30 years ago. I find it amusing when people on here say "oh, that's not rare, it so trivial to find them." In 99% of cases, it's not. Just because you might have a stash of something doesn't mean that there's any more available from anywhere else. It takes real work, luck, and/or a lot of cash to find a lot of computer stuff that's more than 20 years old. > 4. No pen. It will be challinging to get a pen holder for > the plotter. Shrug. I can't help there. I got the plotter in mostly the same condition as what I'm selling it in (they're cleaner now than before). You can blame probably 30 years of being stored on missing parts and dirt. > 5. No trace of paper. Getting paper for this kind of > plotter seems to be difficult to impossible (correct me if I'm > wrong, still hoping..!!!). There's a few feet of paper on it still, but it's not much. I'm sure that if you were sufficiently motivated, you could punch holes into some roll of paper that's commonly available, if you can't still buy the same paper that this uses. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Tue Feb 9 09:03:47 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Tue, 09 Feb 2010 15:03:47 +0000 Subject: Anyone with 8" drives , UK ? In-Reply-To: <2f806cd71002090159y18db212cr9ba94b907df8a8d1@mail.gmail.com> References: <2f806cd71002090159y18db212cr9ba94b907df8a8d1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B717953.9090908@philpem.me.uk> Rob wrote: > anyway... I've found somebody that has an archive of their pages from > Prestel, and we'd both liketo get them up on the site. The snag, for > me, is that a lot of it is on 8" discs, from a Technologics(?) system. > The photographs of the discs I have seen show them labelled as 48tpi, > soft sectored. Find someone who can lend me a 48tpi 8in drive and I'll image them with the DiscFerret analyser prototype (currently sitting on my desk next to me). Think "Catweasel with attitude". That'll get you a raw, timing-value image of the disc, which can then be processed with a suitable decoder (suspect it's probably FM encoding, IBM/ECMA-format or some variant thereof) to recover the data. If nothing else it gives me more test data to feed to the analyser (never a bad thing) and another format to reverse-engineer. -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From hachti at hachti.de Tue Feb 9 10:30:05 2010 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Tue, 09 Feb 2010 17:30:05 +0100 Subject: Selling Calcomp 565 plotter In-Reply-To: <201002090928.03169.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <201002021239.53154.pat@computer-refuge.org> <36C3D71D-EC51-4CC0-9ED4-5D59122AEFED@neurotica.com> <4B6F74B6.4050708@hachti.de> <201002090928.03169.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <4B718D8D.4070201@hachti.de> Hi, > There's a small dent, less than 1mm deep. The shadows in the photo make > it look bigger than it actually is. Some Bondo car-body filler would > probably take care of that in short order. Yes, but that has to be done. I had a 563 not lifting the pen correctly over such a little dent... It's easily done. Cheap. And takes less than one hour of work. Other thing is to replace the rubber belts inside (for the paper roll drive). But that's not too important. >> 2. It is dirty. > > Oh noes! It's old, what do you expect? I've found that spending time > on cleaning things I put on ebay (beyond wipe the dust off with a rag) > rarely helps the sale price. Not?!? I suspect that selling something nice and clean and - most important - without the remark "untested and sold as is" will bring way more. It's easy to test the plotter. On eBay "untested" usually is an euphemism for "I tried to get it working but it didn't work. But I won't tell you that. Just know that I guarantee for nothing". > I find it amusing when people on here say "oh, that's not rare, it so > trivial to find them." In 99% of cases, it's not. Just because you > might have a stash of something doesn't mean that there's any more > available from anywhere else. I find those plotters on a regularly basis. Not one time several units. But one here, one there etc. The first came from scrap, the second for EUR 1 from eBay (complete with cables), the third one came with the 11/40 (that cost me some money - about a quarter of the transport costs). The fourth (long one) was luckily found elsewhere. And between all finds lay several months. And they were not related by any means. So I can say that those units are still dropping in from time to time. What I don't have are the ink pens. I'm still looking for them. BTW it's the same with Teletype ASR33 and 35. In fact it's not always easy to get rid of those if they're not in pristine condition. > It takes real work, luck, and/or a lot of > cash to find a lot of computer stuff that's more than 20 years old. Some work, yes. Or probably cash. But not both :-) >> 4. No pen. It will be challinging to get a pen holder for >> the plotter. > > Shrug. I can't help there. I got the plotter in mostly the same > condition as what I'm selling it in (they're cleaner now than before). > You can blame probably 30 years of being stored on missing parts and > dirt. As I posted below: I could provide one. Will probably put it on eBay and post the link. Regards, Philipp -- http://www.hachti.de From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Feb 9 11:54:55 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2010 12:54:55 -0500 Subject: Algol vs Fortran was RE: VHDL vs Verilog In-Reply-To: <201002090914.28688.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <4b6fd060.26695.66eba@cclist.sydex.com> <6F365783BCA.000005DDn0body.h0me@inbox.com> <0A82C779-29AA-41C6-BAF2-C1571B808D0C@neurotica.com> <201002090914.28688.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <3690A970-A290-4EC2-A8E3-11016BB120A4@neurotica.com> On Feb 9, 2010, at 9:14 AM, Patrick Finnegan wrote: >>>>> Here, here. The thing that impressed me about FORTRAN (well, as >>>>> as science major, anyway) was that it could do complex numbers as >>>>> a *NATIVE* datatype!! Now, I know for you OOP and C++ guys, >>>>> custom, exotic datatypes are a dime a dozen. But in 1980, I was >>>>> sure glad I could do complex math without all of the extra >>>>> baggage that would have been necessary if I had to use, say, >>>>> BASIC-Plus. >>>> >>>> Yeah, but how often do those C++ custom exotic datatypes map to >>>> real datatypes supported by the hardware? (in other words, which >>>> ones will actually be FAST?) >>> >>> That's certainly an issue. I wonder how many applications are >>> slower and more overweight due to their being crafted with OOP than >>> they would be if they were coded using more traditional methods. >> >> "More traditional methods"? Just "the way processors execute >> code" would be a good start. Processors aren't object-oriented in >> nature. This is one of the reasons why we have computers with multi- >> GHz processors that barely get out of their own way. The constructs >> commonly used in OO programming don't come anywhere close to mapping >> to hardware efficiently. > > But, isn't the point of programming languages to make it easier for > the > programmer to create programs? Computers are fast; people are slow. Yes of course, but it has gone WAY TOO FAR in the other direction. There's been this crazy idea that saving EVEN FIVE MINUTES of programmer time is worth ANY amount of processor time or ANY amount of memory that you'd have to spend. The mentality is similar to that surrounding today's school buses (in the US anyway, don't know how they look elsewhere)...Increase visibility at ANY cost, blindly pushing forward, completely ignoring any other ramifications. Now we have school buses with WAY too many blinking and flashing lights all over them that end up causing distraction on the road, sometimes to the point of causing the accidents that they're trying to prevent. And it just gets worse every year. I'm all for saving programmer time...I'm a programmer, and I'm lazy too. But when a computer takes forever to grind through the simplest of operations to enable me to "write the program" by clicking and drooling for five minutes instead of actually doing a little work, it has gone too far. > Have you ever tried writing code against GTK (not-quite-OOP jammed > into > C) vs Qt (real OOP using C++)? GTK is such a pile of sh*t to try to > write code for, in my opinion. Yes I have, both. And yes, it's terrible. GTK is a steaming pile of llama poop for a number of reasons. And they're both slower than pissing tar. > Now, I'm not saying that I appreciate OOP in every case, but it > seems to > be darn useful when writing GUI-based applications. Useful in saving programmer time, yes. But look at the result! A modern multi-GHz Linux box running GTK is far less "responsive"- feeling than my old SPARCstation-IPX running fvwm when just tooling around the GUI. A little more time spent by the programmers, ignoring the "easy way out" or heavy OO programming and it'd be FAR faster. So, spend a little time now, ONCE, and make a million Linux boxes twice as fast? That sounds like a good deal to me. Yes I know GTK isn't written in an OO language, but I'm talking about OO *techniques*...just like some programmers (I may be guilty of this) can "write C in any language", some programmers seem to be able to write C++ any any language. > Oh, and don't > forget that most of the code on running your favorite Mac was > written in > Objective C... ...which is something that I'm terribly annoyed with. It's fast, but it should be a LOT faster, for the powerful processors it has. -Dave > -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Feb 9 12:00:17 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2010 13:00:17 -0500 Subject: Algol vs Fortran was RE: VHDL vs Verilog In-Reply-To: <4B712670.3050201@mail.msu.edu> References: <4b6fd060.26695.66eba@cclist.sydex.com> <6ed9562426e.0000058dn0body.h0me@inbox.com> <4b700d62.20109.f4bca6@cclist.sydex.com> <6F365783BCA.000005DDn0body.h0me@inbox.com> <0A82C779-29AA-41C6-BAF2-C1571B808D0C@neurotica.com> <4B712670.3050201@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <16E38B1D-0E55-4287-9DEE-CFE9AD76D686@neurotica.com> On Feb 9, 2010, at 4:10 AM, Josh Dersch wrote: >>> That's certainly an issue. I wonder how many applications are >>> slower and more overweight due to their being crafted with OOP >>> than they would be if they were coded using more traditional >>> methods. >> >> "More traditional methods"? Just "the way processors execute >> code" would be a good start. Processors aren't object-oriented in >> nature. This is one of the reasons why we have computers with >> multi-GHz processors that barely get out of their own way. The >> constructs commonly used in OO programming don't come anywhere >> close to mapping to hardware efficiently. > > What "commonly used" constructs are these that are so horribly > inefficient that they would make a multi-GHz processor stumble? > (And in what language(s)?) OBJECTS! Our processors have registers, ALUs, and memory locations...not objects. (iAPX432 notwithstanding) Constructs that don't map to that paradigm are going to be inefficient, to a degree that corresponds to how badly they match the paradigm. And objects don't map to it at all. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Feb 9 12:06:54 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2010 10:06:54 -0800 (PST) Subject: Algol vs Fortran was RE: VHDL vs Verilog In-Reply-To: <16E38B1D-0E55-4287-9DEE-CFE9AD76D686@neurotica.com> from Dave McGuire at "Feb 9, 10 01:00:17 pm" Message-ID: <201002091806.o19I6t7G017570@floodgap.com> > > What "commonly used" constructs are these that are so horribly > > inefficient that they would make a multi-GHz processor stumble? > > (And in what language(s)?) > > OBJECTS! > > Our processors have registers, ALUs, and memory locations...not > objects. (iAPX432 notwithstanding) Constructs that don't map to > that paradigm are going to be inefficient, to a degree that > corresponds to how badly they match the paradigm. And objects don't > map to it at all. Rekursiv! I liked a lot of the ideas in the 432. Too bad it was a pig. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- TRUE HEADLINE: Teacher Strikes Idle Kids ----------------------------------- From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Feb 9 12:13:20 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2010 13:13:20 -0500 Subject: Selling Calcomp 565 plotter In-Reply-To: <4B718D8D.4070201@hachti.de> References: <201002021239.53154.pat@computer-refuge.org> <36C3D71D-EC51-4CC0-9ED4-5D59122AEFED@neurotica.com> <4B6F74B6.4050708@hachti.de> <201002090928.03169.pat@computer-refuge.org> <4B718D8D.4070201@hachti.de> Message-ID: On Feb 9, 2010, at 11:30 AM, Philipp Hachtmann wrote: >>> I find it amusing when people on here say "oh, that's not rare, >>> it so >>> trivial to find them." In 99% of cases, it's not. Just because >>> you might have a stash of something doesn't mean that there's any >>> more available from anywhere else. >> > I find those plotters on a regularly basis. Not one time several > units. But one here, one there etc. The first came from scrap, the > second for EUR 1 from eBay (complete with cables), the third one > came with the 11/40 (that cost me some money - about a quarter of > the transport costs). The fourth (long one) was luckily found > elsewhere. And between all finds lay several months. And they were > not related by any means. So I can say that those units are still > dropping in from time to time. I have been looking for a 565, no joke, for fifteen years. I had one on my very first PDP-8/e when I was about 15, I loved the thing, then I stupidly sold it. I regretted it badly about a year later and have been looking for one ever since. If they're so common over there, would you consider shipping me one? (when I can afford it, which should be soon) > What I don't have are the ink pens. I'm still looking for them. If you have the solenoid assembly, it's not difficult to take a standard ball-point pen ink tube, trim it down and fit it in there. I last did it 25 years ago, and I don't recall the details, but I don't remember it giving me much trouble. > BTW it's the same with Teletype ASR33 and 35. In fact it's not > always easy to get rid of those if they're not in pristine condition. ...it took me nearly a decade to find one of those. I'm not particularly bad at finding stuff, but I live in a part of the (my) country where there is NO classic hardware. "Old computer" here means "2GHz Pentium-4". Yes, sometimes I really want to move, and I probably will, because this area doesn't support the lifestyle that I want to live...which includes getting cool computer hardware on a regular basis. My ASR-33 came from Boston; I picked it up when I was up there with a truck moving a mainframe for my employer. I'd have driven up there just for that if I had to. I know YOU find a lot of this stuff...I assure you that's not the norm. I sure wish it were! -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Feb 9 12:16:40 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2010 13:16:40 -0500 Subject: Algol vs Fortran was RE: VHDL vs Verilog In-Reply-To: <201002091806.o19I6t7G017570@floodgap.com> References: <201002091806.o19I6t7G017570@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On Feb 9, 2010, at 1:06 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >>> What "commonly used" constructs are these that are so horribly >>> inefficient that they would make a multi-GHz processor stumble? >>> (And in what language(s)?) >> >> OBJECTS! >> >> Our processors have registers, ALUs, and memory locations...not >> objects. (iAPX432 notwithstanding) Constructs that don't map to >> that paradigm are going to be inefficient, to a degree that >> corresponds to how badly they match the paradigm. And objects don't >> map to it at all. > > Rekursiv! > > I liked a lot of the ideas in the 432. Too bad it was a pig. Me too. I wonder if enough architectural information is out there to resurrect the design. Intel will surely never do it. (not that they necessarily should) -Dave > -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From teoz at neo.rr.com Tue Feb 9 12:25:28 2010 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2010 13:25:28 -0500 Subject: Selling Calcomp 565 plotter References: <201002021239.53154.pat@computer-refuge.org> <36C3D71D-EC51-4CC0-9ED4-5D59122AEFED@neurotica.com> <4B6F74B6.4050708@hachti.de><201002090928.03169.pat@computer-refuge.org><4B718D8D.4070201@hachti.de> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave McGuire" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, February 09, 2010 1:13 PM Subject: Re: Selling Calcomp 565 plotter > ...it took me nearly a decade to find one of those. I'm not > particularly bad at finding stuff, but I live in a part of the (my) > country where there is NO classic hardware. "Old computer" here means > "2GHz Pentium-4". Yes, sometimes I really want to move, and I probably > will, because this area doesn't support the lifestyle that I want to > live...which includes getting cool computer hardware on a regular basis. > > My ASR-33 came from Boston; I picked it up when I was up there with a > truck moving a mainframe for my employer. I'd have driven up there just > for that if I had to. I know YOU find a lot of this stuff...I assure you > that's not the norm. I sure wish it were! > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire > Port Charlotte, FL Hmm, every time I see a deal on Amiga equipment it seems to be in FL (all the good stuff you want is always somewhere else I guess). From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Feb 9 12:34:18 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2010 13:34:18 -0500 Subject: Selling Calcomp 565 plotter In-Reply-To: References: <201002021239.53154.pat@computer-refuge.org> <36C3D71D-EC51-4CC0-9ED4-5D59122AEFED@neurotica.com> <4B6F74B6.4050708@hachti.de><201002090928.03169.pat@computer-refuge.org><4B718D8D.4070201@hachti.de> Message-ID: <9DCDD26A-78BF-4622-8928-78940F4DC5BB@neurotica.com> On Feb 9, 2010, at 1:25 PM, Teo Zenios wrote: >> ...it took me nearly a decade to find one of those. I'm not >> particularly bad at finding stuff, but I live in a part of the >> (my) country where there is NO classic hardware. "Old computer" >> here means "2GHz Pentium-4". Yes, sometimes I really want to >> move, and I probably will, because this area doesn't support the >> lifestyle that I want to live...which includes getting cool >> computer hardware on a regular basis. >> >> My ASR-33 came from Boston; I picked it up when I was up there >> with a truck moving a mainframe for my employer. I'd have driven >> up there just for that if I had to. I know YOU find a lot of >> this stuff...I assure you that's not the norm. I sure wish it were! > > Hmm, every time I see a deal on Amiga equipment it seems to be in > FL (all the good stuff you want is always somewhere else I guess). Where?!! But, admittedly I'm talking about stuff a good bit older than that, like PDP-11s, Calcomp 565s, and ASR-33s. I'd love to have an Amiga again. My boss is an Amiga nut; he promised to give me a nice complete A1000 setup when he has some time to put it all together and make it perfect. I'm looking forward to adopting it. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Feb 9 12:37:50 2010 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Tue, 09 Feb 2010 11:37:50 -0700 Subject: Algol vs Fortran was RE: VHDL vs Verilog In-Reply-To: References: <201002091806.o19I6t7G017570@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <4B71AB7E.7060900@jetnet.ab.ca> Dave McGuire wrote: > Me too. I wonder if enough architectural information is out there to > resurrect the design. Intel will surely never do it. (not that they > necessarily should) I think the problem is the machine has *too small* a memory. The other problem is several languages: FORTH LISP come to mind as they don't cache or pipe-line well. > -Dave Ben. PS. The only small portable compiler I can find is Small C - version 1.0. From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Tue Feb 9 12:44:51 2010 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Tue, 09 Feb 2010 10:44:51 -0800 Subject: Algol vs Fortran was RE: VHDL vs Verilog In-Reply-To: <16E38B1D-0E55-4287-9DEE-CFE9AD76D686@neurotica.com> References: <4b6fd060.26695.66eba@cclist.sydex.com> <6ed9562426e.0000058dn0body.h0me@inbox.com> <4b700d62.20109.f4bca6@cclist.sydex.com> <6F365783BCA.000005DDn0body.h0me@inbox.com> <0A82C779-29AA-41C6-BAF2-C1571B808D0C@neurotica.com> <4B712670.3050201@mail.msu.edu> <16E38B1D-0E55-4287-9DEE-CFE9AD76D686@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4B71AD23.8040304@mail.msu.edu> Dave McGuire wrote: > On Feb 9, 2010, at 4:10 AM, Josh Dersch wrote: >>>> That's certainly an issue. I wonder how many applications are >>>> slower and more overweight due to their being crafted with OOP than >>>> they would be if they were coded using more traditional methods. >>> >>> "More traditional methods"? Just "the way processors execute >>> code" would be a good start. Processors aren't object-oriented in >>> nature. This is one of the reasons why we have computers with >>> multi-GHz processors that barely get out of their own way. The >>> constructs commonly used in OO programming don't come anywhere close >>> to mapping to hardware efficiently. >> >> What "commonly used" constructs are these that are so horribly >> inefficient that they would make a multi-GHz processor stumble? (And >> in what language(s)?) > > OBJECTS! > > Our processors have registers, ALUs, and memory locations...not > objects. (iAPX432 notwithstanding) Constructs that don't map to that > paradigm are going to be inefficient, to a degree that corresponds to > how badly they match the paradigm. And objects don't map to it at all. > That's not answering my question. What part of implementing OBJECTS! are modern compilers for OO-language-du-jour incapable of translating efficiently to native machine code? And why? And what exactly is the performance hit in the cases you're thinking of? How, precisely, do objects NOT map to registers or memory locations in modern OO languages? Where does the inefficiency come in? How much faster than a Sparc IPX running FVWM would my machine be if my existing software had been written in C instead of horribly-inefficient-language? Details, please. Josh > -Dave > From emu at e-bbes.com Tue Feb 9 12:48:36 2010 From: emu at e-bbes.com (e.stiebler) Date: Tue, 09 Feb 2010 11:48:36 -0700 Subject: Algol vs Fortran was RE: VHDL vs Verilog In-Reply-To: <4B71AB7E.7060900@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <201002091806.o19I6t7G017570@floodgap.com> <4B71AB7E.7060900@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4B71AE04.5070701@e-bbes.com> Ben wrote: > PS. The only small portable compiler I can find > is Small C - version 1.0. For the iapx432 ? From teoz at neo.rr.com Tue Feb 9 12:49:18 2010 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2010 13:49:18 -0500 Subject: Selling Calcomp 565 plotter References: <201002021239.53154.pat@computer-refuge.org> <36C3D71D-EC51-4CC0-9ED4-5D59122AEFED@neurotica.com> <4B6F74B6.4050708@hachti.de><201002090928.03169.pat@computer-refuge.org><4B718D8D.4070201@hachti.de> <9DCDD26A-78BF-4622-8928-78940F4DC5BB@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <8A0B397AE5A54670B091A3096850A2E8@dell8300> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave McGuire" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, February 09, 2010 1:34 PM Subject: Re: Selling Calcomp 565 plotter > Where?!! > > But, admittedly I'm talking about stuff a good bit older than that, > like PDP-11s, Calcomp 565s, and ASR-33s. > > I'd love to have an Amiga again. My boss is an Amiga nut; he promised > to give me a nice complete A1000 setup when he has some time to put it > all together and make it perfect. I'm looking forward to adopting it. > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire > Port Charlotte, FL A year or so ago there was all kinds of cheap/free stuff from people losing their homes and not having anywhere to take their collections (in FL but happens all over now). Sad to see actually. Yea, anything pre 1980's seems to be rare anywhere these days. Even newer stuff is rare in some areas. I tripped over a DEC MicroVAX last week at a recycler, which is rare in my area. If you want older stuff you need to be in larger cities where the stuff was purchased new and used. I bet anything ever made can be found in the NYC area, of course there are millions of other would be collectors looking there too. From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Feb 9 12:56:09 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2010 13:56:09 -0500 Subject: Algol vs Fortran was RE: VHDL vs Verilog In-Reply-To: <4B71AD23.8040304@mail.msu.edu> References: <4b6fd060.26695.66eba@cclist.sydex.com> <6ed9562426e.0000058dn0body.h0me@inbox.com> <4b700d62.20109.f4bca6@cclist.sydex.com> <6F365783BCA.000005DDn0body.h0me@inbox.com> <0A82C779-29AA-41C6-BAF2-C1571B808D0C@neurotica.com> <4B712670.3050201@mail.msu.edu> <16E38B1D-0E55-4287-9DEE-CFE9AD76D686@neurotica.com> <4B71AD23.8040304@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: On Feb 9, 2010, at 1:44 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: >>> What "commonly used" constructs are these that are so horribly >>> inefficient that they would make a multi-GHz processor stumble? >>> (And in what language(s)?) >> >> OBJECTS! >> >> Our processors have registers, ALUs, and memory locations...not >> objects. (iAPX432 notwithstanding) Constructs that don't map to >> that paradigm are going to be inefficient, to a degree that >> corresponds to how badly they match the paradigm. And objects >> don't map to it at all. >> > That's not answering my question. What part of implementing > OBJECTS! are modern compilers for OO-language-du-jour incapable of > translating efficiently to native machine code? And why? And what > exactly is the performance hit in the cases you're thinking of? > > How, precisely, do objects NOT map to registers or memory locations > in modern OO languages? Where does the inefficiency come in? Ok. Show me a processor that has an "object" data type, that has subtypes like "member" and "method" and such. There aren't any. Translating from such incredibly high-level constructs to registers, stacks, and memory locations is not without a lot of overhead. Try to envision what happens in the instruction stream during things like virtual function lookups in C++, for example. It's similar to using floating-point math on a processor with no floating-point support. It all has to be implemented in software, and it's slow. Going a bit farther back, processors lacking hardware multiply and divide...we ended up using subroutines and macros, and it was a lot slower. > How much faster than a Sparc IPX running FVWM would my machine be > if my existing software had been written in C instead of horribly- > inefficient-language? Details, please. Why are you asking this question? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From emu at e-bbes.com Tue Feb 9 12:59:20 2010 From: emu at e-bbes.com (e.stiebler) Date: Tue, 09 Feb 2010 11:59:20 -0700 Subject: iapx432, was : Re: Algol vs Fortran was RE: VHDL vs Verilog In-Reply-To: References: <201002091806.o19I6t7G017570@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <4B71B088.7000604@e-bbes.com> Dave McGuire wrote: > [ iapx432] > Me too. I wonder if enough architectural information is out there to > resurrect the design. Intel will surely never do it. (not that they > necessarily should) Eric has a pretty page about it : http://www.brouhaha.com/~eric/retrocomputing/intel/iapx432/#documentation looks good enough to start ... ;-) From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Feb 9 12:59:54 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2010 13:59:54 -0500 Subject: Selling Calcomp 565 plotter In-Reply-To: <8A0B397AE5A54670B091A3096850A2E8@dell8300> References: <201002021239.53154.pat@computer-refuge.org> <36C3D71D-EC51-4CC0-9ED4-5D59122AEFED@neurotica.com> <4B6F74B6.4050708@hachti.de><201002090928.03169.pat@computer-refuge.org><4B718D8D.4070201@hachti.de> <9DCDD26A-78BF-4622-8928-78940F4DC5BB@neurotica.com> <8A0B397AE5A54670B091A3096850A2E8@dell8300> Message-ID: <66EC60BC-29EA-447D-B854-5B129E32651D@neurotica.com> On Feb 9, 2010, at 1:49 PM, Teo Zenios wrote: >> Where?!! >> >> But, admittedly I'm talking about stuff a good bit older than >> that, like PDP-11s, Calcomp 565s, and ASR-33s. >> >> I'd love to have an Amiga again. My boss is an Amiga nut; he >> promised to give me a nice complete A1000 setup when he has some >> time to put it all together and make it perfect. I'm looking >> forward to adopting it. > > A year or so ago there was all kinds of cheap/free stuff from > people losing their homes and not having anywhere to take their > collections (in FL but happens all over now). Sad to see actually. Horribly sad to see. I'm in the thick of it, my house is currently the only one on my street that isn't bank-owned, and never heard about ANY collectibles needing homes. Where did you see this stuff? > Yea, anything pre 1980's seems to be rare anywhere these days. Not in .EU, apparently. > Even newer stuff is rare in some areas. I tripped over a DEC > MicroVAX last week at a recycler, which is rare in my area. If you > want older stuff you need to be in larger cities where the stuff > was purchased new and used. I bet anything ever made can be found > in the NYC area, of course there are millions of other would be > collectors looking there too. I hope you rescued that MicroVAX. There are some biggish cities around here, though nothing like NYC of course. Tampa is nontrivial. Zero classic hardware there though. Lots of cool stuff (lots of modern IBM mainframes in Tampa) but nothing old. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From emu at e-bbes.com Tue Feb 9 13:04:24 2010 From: emu at e-bbes.com (e.stiebler) Date: Tue, 09 Feb 2010 12:04:24 -0700 Subject: hp 9153 floppy & disk In-Reply-To: References: <4B6D4848.5000008@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: <4B71B1B8.6070207@e-bbes.com> Rik Bos wrote: > 09153-96111 is the HP product number for the 10MB Winchester. Doesn't lead to any real manuals. Anybody tried to hook up a OTS MFM drive into a hp 9153 ? Cheers From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Feb 9 13:09:00 2010 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Tue, 09 Feb 2010 12:09:00 -0700 Subject: Algol vs Fortran was RE: VHDL vs Verilog In-Reply-To: <4B71AE04.5070701@e-bbes.com> References: <201002091806.o19I6t7G017570@floodgap.com> <4B71AB7E.7060900@jetnet.ab.ca> <4B71AE04.5070701@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: <4B71B2CC.6000006@jetnet.ab.ca> e.stiebler wrote: > Ben wrote: >> PS. The only small portable compiler I can find >> is Small C - version 1.0. > > For the iapx432 ? > no... for a small machine Z80/6809 ect. Hmm time to change the subject line. How did that work back then to get software created for a new machine? 8080's had PLM compiled on a VAX or something along the same lines. Ben. From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Tue Feb 9 13:13:30 2010 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2010 19:13:30 +0000 Subject: Anyone with 8" drives , UK ? In-Reply-To: <2f806cd71002090159y18db212cr9ba94b907df8a8d1@mail.gmail.com> References: <2f806cd71002090159y18db212cr9ba94b907df8a8d1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Spose I had better put my hand up, Burton upon Trent, East Midlands, I have an 8" drive in a piece of television gear, I could temporarily remove it and liaise with Philip Pemberton. One thing I cannot remember at the moment is if the drive needed hard sector or not. Dave Caroline From cclist at sydex.com Tue Feb 9 13:19:24 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 09 Feb 2010 11:19:24 -0800 Subject: Algol vs Fortran was RE: VHDL vs Verilog In-Reply-To: <16E38B1D-0E55-4287-9DEE-CFE9AD76D686@neurotica.com> References: <4b6fd060.26695.66eba@cclist.sydex.com>, <4B712670.3050201@mail.msu.edu>, <16E38B1D-0E55-4287-9DEE-CFE9AD76D686@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4B7144BC.10154.88B512@cclist.sydex.com> On 9 Feb 2010 at 13:00, Dave McGuire wrote: > Our processors have registers, ALUs, and memory locations...not > objects. (iAPX432 notwithstanding) Constructs that don't map to > that paradigm are going to be inefficient, to a degree that > corresponds to how badly they match the paradigm. And objects don't > map to it at all. How about GOTO-less CPUs? Do any exist that completely lack a jump instruction of any sort (I'm not counting those where PC is mapped as a general register)? --Chuck From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Tue Feb 9 13:19:14 2010 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Tue, 09 Feb 2010 11:19:14 -0800 Subject: Algol vs Fortran was RE: VHDL vs Verilog In-Reply-To: References: <4b6fd060.26695.66eba@cclist.sydex.com> <6ed9562426e.0000058dn0body.h0me@inbox.com> <4b700d62.20109.f4bca6@cclist.sydex.com> <6F365783BCA.000005DDn0body.h0me@inbox.com> <0A82C779-29AA-41C6-BAF2-C1571B808D0C@neurotica.com> <4B712670.3050201@mail.msu.edu> <16E38B1D-0E55-4287-9DEE-CFE9AD76D686@neurotica.com> <4B71AD23.8040304@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <4B71B532.1070007@mail.msu.edu> Dave McGuire wrote: > On Feb 9, 2010, at 1:44 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: >>>> What "commonly used" constructs are these that are so horribly >>>> inefficient that they would make a multi-GHz processor stumble? >>>> (And in what language(s)?) >>> >>> OBJECTS! >>> >>> Our processors have registers, ALUs, and memory locations...not >>> objects. (iAPX432 notwithstanding) Constructs that don't map to >>> that paradigm are going to be inefficient, to a degree that >>> corresponds to how badly they match the paradigm. And objects don't >>> map to it at all. >>> >> That's not answering my question. What part of implementing OBJECTS! >> are modern compilers for OO-language-du-jour incapable of translating >> efficiently to native machine code? And why? And what exactly is >> the performance hit in the cases you're thinking of? >> >> How, precisely, do objects NOT map to registers or memory locations >> in modern OO languages? Where does the inefficiency come in? > > Ok. Show me a processor that has an "object" data type, that has > subtypes like "member" and "method" and such. There aren't any. > Translating from such incredibly high-level constructs to registers, > stacks, and memory locations is not without a lot of overhead. Try to > envision what happens in the instruction stream during things like > virtual function lookups in C++, for example. Ok, I'm envisioning it. A few instructions to do a vtable lookup and a jump to the correct virtual function. Wow. So those extra instructions are what's making every machine in the world (apparently) very very slow? In C#, virtual lookups are cached at runtime so the cost of the first virtual call to a function goes through the vtable routine; future calls are very fast. Objects in their raw form are not "incredibly high-level." In C++, an object is referenced via a pointer; data fields are accessed via offsets just like in C. There is a small overhead for virtual function dispatch. I fail to see how this overhead is somehow responsible for performance problems in computers today. What other overheads/inefficiencies are you thinking of? > > It's similar to using floating-point math on a processor with no > floating-point support. It all has to be implemented in software, and > it's slow. Going a bit farther back, processors lacking hardware > multiply and divide...we ended up using subroutines and macros, and it > was a lot slower. > >> How much faster than a Sparc IPX running FVWM would my machine be >> if my existing software had been written in C instead of >> horribly-inefficient-language? Details, please. > > Why are you asking this question? You keep talking about how OO programming is the reason that software today is so inefficient but you offer no data to back it up other than "it doesn't map to the hardware." And you brought it up in another response: > A modern multi-GHz Linux box running GTK is far less > "responsive"-feeling than my old SPARCstation-IPX running fvwm when > just tooling around the GUI. A little more time spent by the > programmers, ignoring the "easy way out" or heavy OO programming and > it'd be FAR faster. So it finally comes out: it's the *bad progammers* at fault here. I knew it all along! Don't confuse poor programmers with programming languages. There are always efficiency tradeoffs in programming languages and a good programmer knows how to make the right choices. Josh > > -Dave > From hachti at hachti.de Tue Feb 9 13:15:50 2010 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Tue, 09 Feb 2010 20:15:50 +0100 Subject: Selling Calcomp 565 plotter In-Reply-To: References: <201002021239.53154.pat@computer-refuge.org> <36C3D71D-EC51-4CC0-9ED4-5D59122AEFED@neurotica.com> <4B6F74B6.4050708@hachti.de> <201002090928.03169.pat@computer-refuge.org> <4B718D8D.4070201@hachti.de> Message-ID: <4B71B466.1060305@hachti.de> Hi Dave, > I have been looking for a 565, no joke, for fifteen years. Wow! I've never even seen a vintage computer before autumn of 2004 when I bought my H316 out of the blue. Ok, perhaps somewhere in a museum but those dead boxes were boring to me. Since then I collect old computers. And collecting means collecting. Like you collect apples under a tree. > I had one > on my very first PDP-8/e when I was about 15, I loved the thing, then I > stupidly sold it. But now you have some new ones? > I regretted it badly about a year later and have been > looking for one ever since. I once had a Tandy 200 computer. I still remember me throwing it away in the mid nineties. With original cover, documentation, everything. In pristine working condition. It was junk. Ok, it's no pdp8/something or other really cool minicomputer. But I still sometimes feel sad about that. > If they're so common over there, would you > consider shipping me one? (when I can afford it, which should be soon) Hm. Shipping will cost a fortune. I once shipped a Honeywell H316R (no other unit known to survive) from US. That cost me $$$ plus more $$$ and some $$$ more... The machine itself was bought for an epsilon. But in the end I've never paid more for a vintage computer than the 316R...! I currently have a 563 and three 565 plotters. I'd like to keep the 563 and two 565 units because they have different resolutions. And I have at least three computers fitted with interfaces to drive them. The third 565 ist just being swapped away as part of a bigger deal. Sorry. But I'll remember you when the next plotter drops in. >> What I don't have are the ink pens. I'm still looking for them. > > If you have the solenoid assembly, it's not difficult to take a > standard ball-point pen ink tube, trim it down and fit it in there. I > last did it 25 years ago, and I don't recall the details, but I don't > remember it giving me much trouble. Oh, ball pens are no problem. I have those normal ball pen holders where you can put a normal ball pen in. Even in two distinct sizes. And I have a holder for fisher space pens. VERY much better. That's basically the same but has a different end piece and inlay. I have some spare inlays. But not the ends. And there was an INK pen assembly. I have most of the parts - multiple times. But I again miss the end piece. So I cannot use an ink pen. I know only one person having the complete ink stuff: http://pdp8.de/pages/calcomp_ip.htm You can see the end piece in the middle of the upper row in the picture. >> BTW it's the same with Teletype ASR33 and 35. In fact it's not always >> easy to get rid of those if they're not in pristine condition. > > ...it took me nearly a decade to find one of those. Hm? > I'm not > particularly bad at finding stuff, but I live in a part of the (my) > country where there is NO classic hardware. > "Old computer" here means > "2GHz Pentium-4". Yes, sometimes I really want to move, and I probably > will, because this area doesn't support the lifestyle that I want to > live...which includes getting cool computer hardware on a regular basis. Where do you live? I never understood why it is as difficult to get old hardware in US. Ok, in Germany they sometimes pay $$$ (better: ???), too. Most of the stuff we're talking about has been manufactured in US. And was used far more widely there than anywhere else. Perhaps there are different management approaches. Here "that once was very expensive" can be a reason to keep stuff for decades. At least in universities and other more or less public institutions. Here it is sometimes difficult to save stuff from scrap. Just because of the physical volume. I'm currently literally drowning in DEC docs I saved from the dumpster in the last few days. Yes, cool to have them. But...Ohhh! And I don't know yet if the pdp10 software documentation will be endangered as well. Saving that would generate real problems at my side: currently counted 20 boxes. But be sure: I'll ensure that it won't get thrown away. > My ASR-33 came from Boston; I picked it up when I was up there with a > truck moving a mainframe for my employer. I'd have driven up there just > for that if I had to. Me too! At least for the first one. > I know YOU find a lot of this stuff...I assure > you that's not the norm. I sure wish it were! Ok, I probably have to admit that I've been quite (very?) lucky sometimes. But in general its still far easier to get the good stuff here in Germany. So move to Germany! We also have some mountains one can climb and some lakes :-) Regards, Philipp -- http://www.hachti.de From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Feb 9 13:21:39 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2010 14:21:39 -0500 Subject: Algol vs Fortran was RE: VHDL vs Verilog In-Reply-To: <4B71B2CC.6000006@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <201002091806.o19I6t7G017570@floodgap.com> <4B71AB7E.7060900@jetnet.ab.ca> <4B71AE04.5070701@e-bbes.com> <4B71B2CC.6000006@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <6160DE92-A4AE-451D-81F9-24F6DEE27D7D@neurotica.com> On Feb 9, 2010, at 2:09 PM, Ben wrote: >>> PS. The only small portable compiler I can find >>> is Small C - version 1.0. >> >> For the iapx432 ? >> > no... for a small machine Z80/6809 ect. Hmm time to change the > subject line. > How did that work back then to get software created for a new machine? > 8080's had PLM compiled on a VAX or something along the same lines. Cross-assemblers too. There was a very nice suite of cross- assemblers that ran on PDP-11s under RT-11 and targeted many different microprocessors. That cross-assembler suite was later ported to UNIX and now lives on in many embedded toolchains, not the least of which is SDCC. Speaking of SDCC...if you're looking for a good Z80 C compiler, it does target that architecture, among others. It's mature, quite popular and has a quick development pace. Its primary target is the mcs51 architecture, but it supports several others. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Feb 9 13:22:07 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2010 14:22:07 -0500 Subject: iapx432, was : Re: Algol vs Fortran was RE: VHDL vs Verilog In-Reply-To: <4B71B088.7000604@e-bbes.com> References: <201002091806.o19I6t7G017570@floodgap.com> <4B71B088.7000604@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: On Feb 9, 2010, at 1:59 PM, e.stiebler wrote: >> [ iapx432] >> Me too. I wonder if enough architectural information is out there >> to resurrect the design. Intel will surely never do it. (not >> that they necessarily should) > > Eric has a pretty page about it : > http://www.brouhaha.com/~eric/retrocomputing/intel/iapx432/ > #documentation > > looks good enough to start ... > ;-) Hooboy. Not this week! -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Feb 9 13:23:09 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2010 11:23:09 -0800 (PST) Subject: Algol vs Fortran was RE: VHDL vs Verilog In-Reply-To: <4B71B2CC.6000006@jetnet.ab.ca> from Ben at "Feb 9, 10 12:09:00 pm" Message-ID: <201002091923.o19JN9lY024782@floodgap.com> > no... for a small machine Z80/6809 ect. Hmm time to change the subject line. > How did that work back then to get software created for a new machine? > 8080's had PLM compiled on a VAX or something along the same lines. Hand-coded it, I would imagine. I've handcoded runtimes before for compilers yet to be ported, created a cross-compiler, and had the compiler compile itself for the target. Not exactly trivial, of course. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- If your troubles are deep seated and of long-standing, try kneeling. ------- From emu at e-bbes.com Tue Feb 9 13:25:33 2010 From: emu at e-bbes.com (e.stiebler) Date: Tue, 09 Feb 2010 12:25:33 -0700 Subject: Small C, was ... Re: Algol vs Fortran was RE: VHDL vs Verilog Message-ID: <4B71B6AD.3090300@e-bbes.com> Ben wrote: > e.stiebler wrote: >> Ben wrote: >>> PS. The only small portable compiler I can find >>> is Small C - version 1.0. >> >> For the iapx432 ? >> > no... for a small machine Z80/6809 ect. Hmm time to change the subject > line. OK, I just did ;-) > How did that work back then to get software created for a new machine? > 8080's had PLM compiled on a VAX or something along the same lines. > Ben. Are you looking for a native or cross compiler ? native : z80 : use cp/m, 6809 cubix ? cross : to many to count ;-) But I remember our first z80 software was developed on a VAX ... From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Feb 9 13:28:17 2010 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Tue, 09 Feb 2010 12:28:17 -0700 Subject: Algol vs Fortran was RE: VHDL vs Verilog In-Reply-To: <4B7144BC.10154.88B512@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4b6fd060.26695.66eba@cclist.sydex.com>, <4B712670.3050201@mail.msu.edu>, <16E38B1D-0E55-4287-9DEE-CFE9AD76D686@neurotica.com> <4B7144BC.10154.88B512@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4B71B751.60000@jetnet.ab.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote: > How about GOTO-less CPUs? Do any exist that completely lack a jump > instruction of any sort (I'm not counting those where PC is mapped as > a general register)? You must have a jump instruction for a loop. Weird programing and computing... different topic. > --Chuck > From pat at computer-refuge.org Tue Feb 9 13:29:06 2010 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2010 14:29:06 -0500 Subject: Algol vs Fortran was RE: VHDL vs Verilog In-Reply-To: <3690A970-A290-4EC2-A8E3-11016BB120A4@neurotica.com> References: <4b6fd060.26695.66eba@cclist.sydex.com> <201002090914.28688.pat@computer-refuge.org> <3690A970-A290-4EC2-A8E3-11016BB120A4@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <201002091429.06650.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Tuesday 09 February 2010, Dave McGuire wrote: > On Feb 9, 2010, at 9:14 AM, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > > Have you ever tried writing code against GTK (not-quite-OOP jammed > > into > > C) vs Qt (real OOP using C++)? GTK is such a pile of sh*t to try > > to write code for, in my opinion. > > Yes I have, both. And yes, it's terrible. GTK is a steaming pile > of llama poop for a number of reasons. And they're both slower than > pissing tar. Having written stuff for Qt, I have to disagree. KDE is different, and is very heavy-weight, but I found Qt to be fairly light-weight and quick when I used it by itself. Unless it has changed radically in the last few years, I doubt it's bad compared to when I last used it a few years ago. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From cclist at sydex.com Tue Feb 9 13:35:05 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 09 Feb 2010 11:35:05 -0800 Subject: Algol vs Fortran was RE: VHDL vs Verilog In-Reply-To: <4B71B2CC.6000006@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <201002091806.o19I6t7G017570@floodgap.com>, <4B71AE04.5070701@e-bbes.com>, <4B71B2CC.6000006@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4B714869.30713.970FE0@cclist.sydex.com> On 9 Feb 2010 at 12:09, Ben wrote: > no... for a small machine Z80/6809 ect. Hmm time to change the subject > line. How did that work back then to get software created for a new > machine? 8080's had PLM compiled on a VAX or something along the same > lines. Ben. Cross-compilation/assembly. My first assemblers for the 8008 and 8080 ran on a mainframe and were coded in--wait for it--FORTRAN. Before that, well, have you ever coded in machine code? IBM even used to have coding forms for a few machines that were used to facilitate that. --Chuck From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Feb 9 13:50:11 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2010 14:50:11 -0500 Subject: Algol vs Fortran was RE: VHDL vs Verilog In-Reply-To: <4B714869.30713.970FE0@cclist.sydex.com> References: <201002091806.o19I6t7G017570@floodgap.com> <4B71AE04.5070701@e-bbes.com> <4B71B2CC.6000006@jetnet.ab.ca> <4B714869.30713.970FE0@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Feb 9, 2010 at 2:35 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 9 Feb 2010 at 12:09, Ben wrote: > >> no... for a small machine Z80/6809 ect. Hmm time to change the subject >> line. How did that work back then to get software created for a new >> machine? 8080's had PLM compiled on a VAX or something along the same >> lines. Ben. > > Cross-compilation/assembly. ?My first assemblers for the 8008 and > 8080 ran on a mainframe and were coded in--wait for it--FORTRAN. The first 68000 assembler I ever used was written in Whitesmiths C and ran on VMS 3.4. It was long in use when I ran into it in 1984 - I think it was written around 1982 or so. We did run PALASM (written in FORTRAN) on that same VAX. > Before that, well, have you ever coded in machine code? Yep. Did that on the 6502 before I got a line-at-a-time assembler/monitor ROM. Also did that on the Elf - toggled in the bits, too. By the time I was working on the aforementioned VAX, it was no big deal for me to whip out 10-20 instruction programs in ODT on our 11/03 and 11/04 testbeds. I also worked with a guy at UW that could enter 1802 programs right into the EPROM programmer as sequences of bytes in hex. PITA for larger programs, especially branch calculations, but when you don't have abstract development tools, it's one way to bootstrap yourself up. >?IBM even used to have coding forms for a few machines that were used to > facilitate that. I've got a pad of those, I think, for an early-1960s IBM machine (IBM 1401?). They came in a computer correspondence course lesson pack. The instructions were represented as EBCDIC characters (letters, numbers, punctuation), and you drew up the program as streams of BCD entities that would get manually punched onto cards later. -ethan From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Feb 9 12:48:25 2010 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2010 18:48:25 -0000 Subject: TV Licensing (Re: cctech Digest, Vol 78, Issue 3) References: Message-ID: <00a701caa9c1$1e45e5c0$9c6b5d0a@user8459cef6fa> ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" Sent: Monday, February 08, 2010 11:04 PM Subject: RE: TV Licensing (Re: cctech Digest, Vol 78, Issue 3) > cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org wrote: > > Is that one license per item (e.g. we have two TV's and a > > Sega Game Gear with (analogue) TV Tuner), or one license per house? > > Ring them and ask :-) > > Assuming single occupancy, then one per house. > > Tenants, students, hotels etc, and it becomes more complex. > > GameGear will presumably drop off the list of notifiable devices > sometime after 2012 :-) > > BTW: can you successfully feed it from a set top box? > > Antonio > I haven't actually tried... but since it has a small extendable aerial (like you'd find on a radio/ghettoblaster) I can't see it being easy connecting it to a set top box (but probably not impossible). It's not something I can test, as we don't have a set top box (no satellite TV here). My parents have freeview which is built-in to a DVD recorder they got just over a year ago. I just have terrestrial TV in my bedroom, but I don't watch that much TV anyway. Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Feb 9 14:00:17 2010 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Tue, 09 Feb 2010 13:00:17 -0700 Subject: Algol vs Fortran was RE: VHDL vs Verilog In-Reply-To: <4B714869.30713.970FE0@cclist.sydex.com> References: <201002091806.o19I6t7G017570@floodgap.com>, <4B71AE04.5070701@e-bbes.com>, <4B71B2CC.6000006@jetnet.ab.ca> <4B714869.30713.970FE0@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4B71BED1.4020108@jetnet.ab.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote: Cross-compilation/assembly. My first assemblers for the 8008 and > 8080 ran on a mainframe and were coded in--wait for it--FORTRAN. I had access to a IBM-1130. Fortran was favored over ASM. > Before that, well, have you ever coded in machine code? IBM even > used to have coding forms for a few machines that were used to > facilitate that. I am building a 12/24 bit cpu. I may have to hack together a Cross-Compiler for my machine in Fortran IV for the the PDP-8 (SBC6120) I have here. Back to downloading more PDF manuals from bitsavers and figuring how to configure my software. > --Chuck Good time to buy more vintage hardware stuff. :) Ben. From teoz at neo.rr.com Tue Feb 9 14:02:58 2010 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2010 15:02:58 -0500 Subject: Selling Calcomp 565 plotter References: <201002021239.53154.pat@computer-refuge.org> <36C3D71D-EC51-4CC0-9ED4-5D59122AEFED@neurotica.com> <4B6F74B6.4050708@hachti.de><201002090928.03169.pat@computer-refuge.org><4B718D8D.4070201@hachti.de><9DCDD26A-78BF-4622-8928-78940F4DC5BB@neurotica.com><8A0B397AE5A54670B091A3096850A2E8@dell8300> <66EC60BC-29EA-447D-B854-5B129E32651D@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <7D2379F833884F63BA0DB2DA4B2E78FB@dell8300> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave McGuire" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, February 09, 2010 1:59 PM Subject: Re: Selling Calcomp 565 plotter >> A year or so ago there was all kinds of cheap/free stuff from people >> losing their homes and not having anywhere to take their collections (in >> FL but happens all over now). Sad to see actually. > > Horribly sad to see. I'm in the thick of it, my house is currently the > only one on my street that isn't bank-owned, and never heard about ANY > collectibles needing homes. Where did you see this stuff? Different forums I read before heading to bed. The problem with those deals is finding somebody local to pick items up since the owners are in a big hurry to get out and can't be shipping things all over (or they would have gone to ebay to begin with). A few years back I got a free loaded A3000 (just paid a local friend to ship it) when a guy had to relocate for work ASAP and since few people lived in that area of AZ ended up junking a garage full of vintage gear. My friend made out with a few old Apple items like the original portable. I would have been in heaven if I was close enough to drive a truck there. We had something like a weeks notice from the time he posted the stuff on a forum to grab what we could before it all hit the dumpster. I don't have the emails handy for the item list, but quite a few things worth some money ended up in a landfill. Another goldmine is the kid who gets tons of vintage gear from who knows where and their parents make them get rid of it all after the house gets overrun. I see that happen way too often in the mac croud. > >> Yea, anything pre 1980's seems to be rare anywhere these days. > > Not in .EU, apparently. I don't know about that, they seem to have major laws about selling untested old electronics there, and seem to have a passion for crunching any circuit board with lead solder on sight. All their vintage gear is going to the trash heap with 10 foot (sorry 3 meter) fences with guards to keep people from rummaging. >> Even newer stuff is rare in some areas. I tripped over a DEC >> MicroVAX last week at a recycler, which is rare in my area. If you want >> older stuff you need to be in larger cities where the stuff was >> purchased new and used. I bet anything ever made can be found in the NYC >> area, of course there are millions of other would be collectors looking >> there too. > > I hope you rescued that MicroVAX. Yea I got it, 3100-85. Will play around with it a bit and probably pass it on to a DEC collector from this list. Anybody have a spare DEC serial cable with those MJJ plugs? > There are some biggish cities around here, though nothing like NYC of > course. Tampa is nontrivial. Zero classic hardware there though. Lots > of cool stuff (lots of modern IBM mainframes in Tampa) but nothing old. > The recycler here sometimes get a semi load from places like Cleveland (maybe Pittsburgh) to take apart. I think that is where the microvax came from, same with a bunch of PS/2 machines last year. They are currently crunching a bunch of rackmount computers and misc consumer grade computers. I go every friday and dig around. I suggest you find a small time recycler in the area and see what shows up. > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire > Port Charlotte, FL > From cclist at sydex.com Tue Feb 9 14:03:42 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 09 Feb 2010 12:03:42 -0800 Subject: Algol vs Fortran was RE: VHDL vs Verilog In-Reply-To: References: <201002091806.o19I6t7G017570@floodgap.com>, <4B714869.30713.970FE0@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4B714F1E.25062.B143D2@cclist.sydex.com> On 9 Feb 2010 at 14:50, Ethan Dicks wrote: > I've got a pad of those, I think, for an early-1960s IBM machine (IBM > 1401?). They came in a computer correspondence course lesson pack. > The instructions were represented as EBCDIC characters (letters, > numbers, punctuation), and you drew up the program as streams of BCD > entities that would get manually punched onto cards later. Probably 1401 autocoder. Not EBCDIC--that didn't come along until S/360. Most likely just plain old "BCD" punch card code. I used to have a pad labeled "IBM 1620 Absolute Coding System" (they were the reverse sides of the SPS coding form pages. One column (5 positions) to record the address of the instruction, another for the opcode (2 positions), and one each (5 positions) for the P- and Q- address. You coded it up and then punched it, remembering that a record mark was an 0-8-2 multipunch and a numeric blank was an 8-4. Add an 11-punch (minus sign) for any flagged digits. --Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Feb 9 14:05:13 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2010 15:05:13 -0500 Subject: Algol vs Fortran was RE: VHDL vs Verilog In-Reply-To: <201002091429.06650.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <4b6fd060.26695.66eba@cclist.sydex.com> <201002090914.28688.pat@computer-refuge.org> <3690A970-A290-4EC2-A8E3-11016BB120A4@neurotica.com> <201002091429.06650.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <1BB44533-D0B5-43D2-94DE-344FDE1D5154@neurotica.com> On Feb 9, 2010, at 2:29 PM, Patrick Finnegan wrote: >>> Have you ever tried writing code against GTK (not-quite-OOP jammed >>> into >>> C) vs Qt (real OOP using C++)? GTK is such a pile of sh*t to try >>> to write code for, in my opinion. >> >> Yes I have, both. And yes, it's terrible. GTK is a steaming pile >> of llama poop for a number of reasons. And they're both slower than >> pissing tar. > > Having written stuff for Qt, I have to disagree. KDE is different, > and > is very heavy-weight, but I found Qt to be fairly light-weight and > quick > when I used it by itself. Unless it has changed radically in the last > few years, I doubt it's bad compared to when I last used it a few > years > ago. I've written stuff for Qt too. I liked it, but I found it to be slow. Admittedly this was in the Qt2 days, 2002 or so? But yes, I agree, KDE is a bloated pig. -Dave > -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Feb 9 14:28:30 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2010 15:28:30 -0500 Subject: Algol vs Fortran was RE: VHDL vs Verilog In-Reply-To: <4B71B532.1070007@mail.msu.edu> References: <4b6fd060.26695.66eba@cclist.sydex.com> <6ed9562426e.0000058dn0body.h0me@inbox.com> <4b700d62.20109.f4bca6@cclist.sydex.com> <6F365783BCA.000005DDn0body.h0me@inbox.com> <0A82C779-29AA-41C6-BAF2-C1571B808D0C@neurotica.com> <4B712670.3050201@mail.msu.edu> <16E38B1D-0E55-4287-9DEE-CFE9AD76D686@neurotica.com> <4B71AD23.8040304@mail.msu.edu> <4B71B532.1070007@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: On Feb 9, 2010, at 2:19 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: >> Ok. Show me a processor that has an "object" data type, that >> has subtypes like "member" and "method" and such. There aren't >> any. Translating from such incredibly high-level constructs to >> registers, stacks, and memory locations is not without a lot of >> overhead. Try to envision what happens in the instruction stream >> during things like virtual function lookups in C++, for example. > > Ok, I'm envisioning it. A few instructions to do a vtable lookup > and a jump to the correct virtual function. Wow. So those extra > instructions are what's making every machine in the world > (apparently) very very slow? Yes, to a large degree! You're talking about it as if it happens ONCE, and you know it doesn't. Would you care to estimate how many of those vtable lookup happen when someone simply clicks a mouse in a modern OS? I don't know for certain, but I'm willing to bet that it's thousands. > In C#, virtual lookups are cached at runtime so the cost of the > first virtual call to a function goes through the vtable routine; > future calls are very fast. That's nice. Now if only C# weren't a proprietary product from one company which happens to be obsessed with creating vendor lock-in situations. ;) (though actually, hmm, that IS rather nice...) > Objects in their raw form are not "incredibly high-level." In C++, > an object is referenced via a pointer; data fields are accessed via > offsets just like in C. There is a small overhead for virtual > function dispatch. I fail to see how this overhead is somehow > responsible for performance problems in computers today. There's a bit of congruity between C's structs and C++/C#/Java/etc objects, but.. > What other overheads/inefficiencies are you thinking of? ...what happens when someone uses an Integer instead of an int? A whole object gets created when all one likely needed was a memory location. What happens when one adds that Integer to another Integer? Add in the address offset calculations to find out where the actual int is stored within the Integer object, what would those be on most architectures...two or three instructions? So our nice single-instruction add turns into at least five instructions. So you're arguing that increasing the number of instructions required to execute a simple operation by a factor of five doesn't involve overhead? Ok, howabout when it happens all the time, which additions tend to in most programs? In C (for example), there's no motivation at all to wrap a struct around an int just for the sake of doing so, so it doesn't happen. And howabout template programming. I've never seen executables so big as the ones in which templates were overused. (yes, here I have to give a nod to your point about bad programmers below!) All in the name of "saving programmer time", as if that's such a big deal, consequences be damned. Note well, however, that I'm talking about more than just the number of instructions required to accomplish a given task. Sure, that in itself has bad side effects when you think about what it does to the instruction cache hit rates...the principal of locality of reference is blown out the window. But what about memory utilization? How big, in bytes, is an Integer compared to an int? Ok, the difference may be only a few bytes, but what about the program (which would be "most of them") with tens of thousands of them? (I'm typing this on a Mac, into Mail.app, which is currently eating 1.73GB of memory) > You keep talking about how OO programming is the reason that > software today is so inefficient but you offer no data to back it > up other than "it doesn't map to the hardware." I'm sorry, but knowing how processors work, it's pretty obvious to me. The data that backs it up is lots of programs (some of which are operating systems) that I use every day, written in OO languages, including (perhaps especially!) OS X, are far slower than they should be given the hardware they're running on. YOU know how processors work too, I know you do, so I know you see my point. >> A modern multi-GHz Linux box running GTK is far less "responsive"- >> feeling than my old SPARCstation-IPX running fvwm when just >> tooling around the GUI. A little more time spent by the >> programmers, ignoring the "easy way out" or heavy OO programming >> and it'd be FAR faster. > > So it finally comes out: it's the *bad progammers* at fault here. > I knew it all along! Don't confuse poor programmers with > programming languages. There are always efficiency tradeoffs in > programming languages and a good programmer knows how to make the > right choices. Yes, I have to acknowledge this; you'll get no argument from me there. But bad programmers are the rule, not the exception. Code written by bad programmers constitutes 90% of the code written today. It's possible to write fast, compact C++ or Java code; we've both seen it. But it's not the norm. KDE, OS X (and several of its apps, Mail.app comes to mind) *are* the norm, and they're both horribly slow for the hardware they're typically run on. In an ideal world, one in which all programmers were competent, OO languages wouldn't be such a problem. So I guess what I really mean is, "Bad programmers are even more detrimental to computing when armed with OO languages". -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Feb 9 13:48:59 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2010 19:48:59 +0000 (GMT) Subject: TV Licensing (Re: cctech Digest, Vol 78, Issue 3) In-Reply-To: <4B709EA0.3040001@aurigae.demon.co.uk> from "Phill Harvey-Smith" at Feb 8, 10 11:30:40 pm Message-ID: > Actually no, I believe it's a licence to recieve, not to view, which is > why when you could still get a black and white licence at a cheaper > price than colour, you still needed a colour license even if you had a > black and white TV, if you also had a video recorder. The reason being > that the video recorder could recieve and record a colour signal, even > though you could only view it in black and white. I wonder if that's acutally true. The TV licensing people couldn't tell me what license would be required for a monochrome-only video recorder (such things exist, I have one. It's a Sony reel-to-reel machine...). Or for a video recorder that had been modified to record only in monochrome (for example a Philips N1500 with the colour-killer switch hard wired in the appropriate state). Mind you, they also didn't know what, if any, licesnse is required for a TV sound-only receiver. Or for a teletext-only receiver (such as the units used with the BBC micro). For such devices, does 'colour' mean it uses a colour monitor, or that it decodes the attribute bytes, or what? The did tell me that if I modified a TV receiver so that it no longer received TV, then it diddn't need a license. If I took a TV set, desoldered the tuner module, and used the rest of it as a monitor, then I didn't need a license. Even if I kepty the tuner module in my spares box. The fact I had parts that could be assembled into a TV set did not mean I had a TV set. Many years ago I assembled the Maplin NICAM TV tuner kits. I bought said kits in one of their shops (back when Maplin shops stocked interesting items), and they didn't take my name or address. I was told that although a lincense was needed to use the assembled kit, there was no license check in buying a box of parts. The parts were not a TV receiver, they could be used for all sorts of other things. FWIW, all the above devies are used in a house that has a valid TV license, so it didn;t really matter. Byt as=king annoying questions is a hobby of mine... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Feb 9 13:54:52 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2010 19:54:52 +0000 (GMT) Subject: TV Licensing (Re: cctech Digest, Vol 78, Issue 3) In-Reply-To: <4B7036DA.21406.196BABD@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Feb 8, 10 04:07:54 pm Message-ID: > > What I find really strange is this: > > "A blind concession TV Licence costs =A371.25 for colour and =A324.00 for > a black and white TV Licence." Why? Blind does not necessarily mean 'can't see anything at all'. At one time we had to have radio (receiving) licences over here. Again one per house, although I think a car radio needed a separate licence (!). Registerd blind people got a free radio licence. When the radio licence was abolished, they got a discount on a TV licence of the same amount as the final cost of the radio license (I think it was either \pounds 1.25 or \pounds 1.50 in decimal currency, but I might be wrong). This discount stayed the same for many years, even though the TV licence went up several times. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Feb 9 13:59:35 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2010 19:59:35 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Algol vs Fortran was RE: VHDL vs Verilog In-Reply-To: <20100208170155.U71439@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Feb 8, 10 05:03:21 pm Message-ID: > "A REAL programmer can write a FORTRAN program in any language." A Real Programmer can write assembler in any language :-). I am not a Real Programmer, but I once translated a short 6502 assembly language routine into Pascal, with procedures called 'ADC' and the like. The reason was I was trying to figurte out the checksum routine in a Commodore printer ROM -- I wanted to modify the ROM so the printer would take ASCII rather htan PETSCII. Yes, I did do it. -tony > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Feb 9 14:09:06 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2010 20:09:06 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Anyone with 8" drives , UK ? In-Reply-To: <2f806cd71002090159y18db212cr9ba94b907df8a8d1@mail.gmail.com> from "Rob" at Feb 9, 10 09:59:46 am Message-ID: > anyway... I've found somebody that has an archive of their pages from > Prestel, and we'd both liketo get them up on the site. The snag, for > me, is that a lot of it is on 8" discs, from a Technologics(?) system. > The photographs of the discs I have seen show them labelled as 48tpi, > soft sectored. That is a very standard type of 8" disk. The problem comes, of course, that the secotr format is not defined by that label. It's most likely to be single-density (FM), 26 secoptrs per track, 128 bytes per sector, but there were assorted double-density formats, and I wouldn't be suprised if sombody used GCR on 8" disks at some point > > The positive point is that he still has the original computer, but > "it's not been switched on for 20 years" so I'm hesitant on telling > him to try it...! I woender if it would be simplese to get that machine running again. Although you certainly want to take it slowly, check the PSU on a dummy load before conencting the logic boards, check for insulation breakdown, and so on, I susepct that machine would be easily restorable. An 8" drive can be conencted to most PC floppy controllers quite easily. The problem is that many PC controllers only support double tensity operation, which is probably not what you want here. If you want to try it, can't you use one of the drives from the origianl machine? -tony From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Feb 9 14:53:22 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2010 15:53:22 -0500 Subject: Selling Calcomp 565 plotter In-Reply-To: <7D2379F833884F63BA0DB2DA4B2E78FB@dell8300> References: <201002021239.53154.pat@computer-refuge.org> <36C3D71D-EC51-4CC0-9ED4-5D59122AEFED@neurotica.com> <4B6F74B6.4050708@hachti.de><201002090928.03169.pat@computer-refuge.org><4B718D8D.4070201@hachti.de><9DCDD26A-78BF-4622-8928-78940F4DC5BB@neurotica.com><8A0B397AE5A54670B091A3096850A2E8@dell8300> <66EC60BC-29EA-447D-B854-5B129E32651D@neurotica.com> <7D2379F833884F63BA0DB2DA4B2E78FB@dell8300> Message-ID: <3588469B-DFB4-4250-A741-7E5D42DFC94F@neurotica.com> On Feb 9, 2010, at 3:02 PM, Teo Zenios wrote: >> Horribly sad to see. I'm in the thick of it, my house is >> currently the only one on my street that isn't bank-owned, and >> never heard about ANY collectibles needing homes. Where did you >> see this stuff? > > Different forums I read before heading to bed. Care to share? ;) > The problem with those deals is finding somebody local to pick > items up since the owners are in a big hurry to get out and can't > be shipping things all over (or they would have gone to ebay to > begin with). A few years back I got a free loaded A3000 (just paid > a local friend to ship it) when a guy had to relocate for work ASAP > and since few people lived in that area of AZ ended up junking a > garage full of vintage gear. My friend made out with a few old > Apple items like the original portable. I would have been in heaven > if I was close enough to drive a truck there. We had something like > a weeks notice from the time he posted the stuff on a forum to grab > what we could before it all hit the dumpster. I don't have the > emails handy for the item list, but quite a few things worth some > money ended up in a landfill. :-( > Another goldmine is the kid who gets tons of vintage gear from who > knows where and their parents make them get rid of it all after the > house gets overrun. I see that happen way too often in the mac croud. That's horribly disheartening. I'm glad my parents recognized the fact that it'd be better for the house to be full of equipment that they didn't recognize than have me out selling/doing drugs like everyone else in my school. >>> >> Even newer stuff is rare in some areas. I tripped over a DEC >>> MicroVAX last week at a recycler, which is rare in my area. If >>> you want older stuff you need to be in larger cities where the >>> stuff was purchased new and used. I bet anything ever made can >>> be found in the NYC area, of course there are millions of other >>> would be collectors looking there too. >> >> I hope you rescued that MicroVAX. > > Yea I got it, 3100-85. Will play around with it a bit and probably > pass it on to a DEC collector from this list. Anybody have a spare > DEC serial cable with those MJJ plugs? Excellent! Send me your shipping address. >> There are some biggish cities around here, though nothing like >> NYC of course. Tampa is nontrivial. Zero classic hardware >> there though. Lots of cool stuff (lots of modern IBM mainframes >> in Tampa) but nothing old. > > The recycler here sometimes get a semi load from places like > Cleveland (maybe Pittsburgh) to take apart. I think that is where > the microvax came from, same with a bunch of PS/2 machines last > year. They are currently crunching a bunch of rackmount computers > and misc consumer grade computers. I go every friday and dig > around. I suggest you find a small time recycler in the area and > see what shows up. I've tried. I had a list of such places that I visited weekly when I lived in Maryland; it was glorious. There's nothing like that down here. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Feb 9 14:57:15 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2010 15:57:15 -0500 Subject: Selling Calcomp 565 plotter In-Reply-To: <3588469B-DFB4-4250-A741-7E5D42DFC94F@neurotica.com> References: <201002021239.53154.pat@computer-refuge.org> <201002090928.03169.pat@computer-refuge.org> <4B718D8D.4070201@hachti.de> <9DCDD26A-78BF-4622-8928-78940F4DC5BB@neurotica.com> <8A0B397AE5A54670B091A3096850A2E8@dell8300> <66EC60BC-29EA-447D-B854-5B129E32651D@neurotica.com> <7D2379F833884F63BA0DB2DA4B2E78FB@dell8300> <3588469B-DFB4-4250-A741-7E5D42DFC94F@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Feb 9, 2010 at 3:53 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: >> Another goldmine is the kid who gets tons of vintage gear from who knows >> where and their parents make them get rid of it all after the house gets >> overrun. I see that happen way too often in the mac croud. > > ?That's horribly disheartening. ?I'm glad my parents recognized the fact > that it'd be better for the house to be full of equipment that they didn't > recognize than have me out selling/doing drugs like everyone else in my > school. My parents, too. In high school (1982), I had a PDP-8/L and a PDP-8/i in my room. Still have them. The fun part was wheeling the empty H960 rack down the street when I moved into my first college apartment. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Feb 9 14:46:12 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2010 20:46:12 +0000 (GMT) Subject: hp 9153 floppy & disk In-Reply-To: <4B71B1B8.6070207@e-bbes.com> from "e.stiebler" at Feb 9, 10 12:04:24 pm Message-ID: > > Rik Bos wrote: > > 09153-96111 is the HP product number for the 10MB Winchester. > > Doesn't lead to any real manuals. I don;t think there ever were any technical manual for this drive :-(. Or at leasrt I've never seen one. There were never official schematics to my knowledge either .I have unofficial schematics, but they won't help you that much. > > Anybody tried to hook up a OTS MFM drive into a hp 9153 ? It would be a lot less work to track down an HP9133 of some flavour. It would probaably be less work to recreate an HP9133... THe Nighthawk drive interface is strange. Very strange. it has the raw data signals of an ST412 drive (but on single-ended TTL lines, not differential pairs). It also hasa the strangest positioner interface you're likely to see. The positioner is a 2-winding stepper motor. You get (at the drive interface) to contrtoll the currents through the windings (there's a dual DAC in the drive).You also get soem kind of position feedback signal from the drive (there's an ADC in there too). There is no intellegence in the drive to control te DACs based on the output from the ADC, that is done in the controller (I assume in part by the 6809 firmware). Given there's an undocumented ASIC in the drive too, which has a register accessible over the interface, and for whaich I have no data, tryign to recreate the drive is going to be a big job. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Feb 9 14:55:50 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2010 20:55:50 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Algol vs Fortran was RE: VHDL vs Verilog In-Reply-To: <4B7144BC.10154.88B512@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Feb 9, 10 11:19:24 am Message-ID: > How about GOTO-less CPUs? Do any exist that completely lack a jump > instruction of any sort (I'm not counting those where PC is mapped as > a general register)? I assume you also don't count any processor where every instruction includes the address of the next instruction. There is no explicit jump instruction on such a mahcine, becuase every instruction includes a jump. What about a Turing machine. I would claim that has no jump instruciton. And of coruse (apart from the infinite memory), it's fairly easy to build one in hardware. -tony From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Feb 9 14:59:29 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2010 15:59:29 -0500 Subject: Selling Calcomp 565 plotter In-Reply-To: References: <201002021239.53154.pat@computer-refuge.org> <201002090928.03169.pat@computer-refuge.org> <4B718D8D.4070201@hachti.de> <9DCDD26A-78BF-4622-8928-78940F4DC5BB@neurotica.com> <8A0B397AE5A54670B091A3096850A2E8@dell8300> <66EC60BC-29EA-447D-B854-5B129E32651D@neurotica.com> <7D2379F833884F63BA0DB2DA4B2E78FB@dell8300> <3588469B-DFB4-4250-A741-7E5D42DFC94F@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Feb 9, 2010, at 3:57 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >>> Another goldmine is the kid who gets tons of vintage gear from >>> who knows >>> where and their parents make them get rid of it all after the >>> house gets >>> overrun. I see that happen way too often in the mac croud. >> >> That's horribly disheartening. I'm glad my parents recognized >> the fact >> that it'd be better for the house to be full of equipment that >> they didn't >> recognize than have me out selling/doing drugs like everyone else >> in my >> school. > > My parents, too. In high school (1982), I had a PDP-8/L and a PDP-8/i > in my room. Still have them. Very cool. > The fun part was wheeling the empty > H960 rack down the street when I moved into my first college > apartment. That must've made a helluva racket! (ahem!) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Feb 9 15:06:29 2010 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Tue, 09 Feb 2010 14:06:29 -0700 Subject: Algol vs Fortran was RE: VHDL vs Verilog In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B71CE55.3000909@jetnet.ab.ca> Tony Duell wrote: >> How about GOTO-less CPUs? Do any exist that completely lack a jump >> instruction of any sort (I'm not counting those where PC is mapped as >> a general register)? > > I assume you also don't count any processor where every instruction > includes the address of the next instruction. There is no explicit jump > instruction on such a mahcine, becuase every instruction includes a jump. That is the same as a STATE machine, we just call the states; ADDRESS n. > What about a Turing machine. I would claim that has no jump instruciton. > And of coruse (apart from the infinite memory), it's fairly easy to build > one in hardware. I heard you can get a C? compiler for one too! > -tony Ben. Who wants a better 12 bit machine than the humble 8. From oltmansg at bellsouth.net Tue Feb 9 15:14:58 2010 From: oltmansg at bellsouth.net (geoffrey oltmans) Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2010 13:14:58 -0800 (PST) Subject: Algol vs Fortran was RE: VHDL vs Verilog In-Reply-To: References: <4b6fd060.26695.66eba@cclist.sydex.com> <6ed9562426e.0000058dn0body.h0me@inbox.com> <4b700d62.20109.f4bca6@cclist.sydex.com> <6F365783BCA.000005DDn0body.h0me@inbox.com> <0A82C779-29AA-41C6-BAF2-C1571B808D0C@neurotica.com> <4B712670.3050201@mail.msu.edu> <16E38B1D-0E55-4287-9DEE-CFE9AD76D686@neurotica.com> <4B71AD23.8040304@mail.msu.edu> <4B71B532.1070007@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <624077.60218.qm@web83909.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> I wonder how much programmers in the 50's and 60's argued about how many CPU cycles this programming construct took vs. that. ;) ________________________________ From: Dave McGuire To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Sent: Tue, February 9, 2010 2:28:30 PM Subject: Re: Algol vs Fortran was RE: VHDL vs Verilog On Feb 9, 2010, at 2:19 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: >> Ok. Show me a processor that has an "object" data type, that has subtypes like "member" and "method" and such. There aren't any. Translating from such incredibly high-level constructs to registers, stacks, and memory locations is not without a lot of overhead. Try to envision what happens in the instruction stream during things like virtual function lookups in C++, for example. > > Ok, I'm envisioning it. A few instructions to do a vtable lookup and a jump to the correct virtual function. Wow. So those extra instructions are what's making every machine in the world (apparently) very very slow? Yes, to a large degree! You're talking about it as if it happens ONCE, and you know it doesn't. Would you care to estimate how many of those vtable lookup happen when someone simply clicks a mouse in a modern OS? I don't know for certain, but I'm willing to bet that it's thousands. > In C#, virtual lookups are cached at runtime so the cost of the first virtual call to a function goes through the vtable routine; future calls are very fast. That's nice. Now if only C# weren't a proprietary product from one company which happens to be obsessed with creating vendor lock-in situations. ;) (though actually, hmm, that IS rather nice...) > Objects in their raw form are not "incredibly high-level." In C++, an object is referenced via a pointer; data fields are accessed via offsets just like in C. There is a small overhead for virtual function dispatch. I fail to see how this overhead is somehow responsible for performance problems in computers today. There's a bit of congruity between C's structs and C++/C#/Java/etc objects, but.. > What other overheads/inefficiencies are you thinking of? ...what happens when someone uses an Integer instead of an int? A whole object gets created when all one likely needed was a memory location. What happens when one adds that Integer to another Integer? Add in the address offset calculations to find out where the actual int is stored within the Integer object, what would those be on most architectures...two or three instructions? So our nice single-instruction add turns into at least five instructions. So you're arguing that increasing the number of instructions required to execute a simple operation by a factor of five doesn't involve overhead? Ok, howabout when it happens all the time, which additions tend to in most programs? In C (for example), there's no motivation at all to wrap a struct around an int just for the sake of doing so, so it doesn't happen. And howabout template programming. I've never seen executables so big as the ones in which templates were overused. (yes, here I have to give a nod to your point about bad programmers below!) All in the name of "saving programmer time", as if that's such a big deal, consequences be damned. Note well, however, that I'm talking about more than just the number of instructions required to accomplish a given task. Sure, that in itself has bad side effects when you think about what it does to the instruction cache hit rates...the principal of locality of reference is blown out the window. But what about memory utilization? How big, in bytes, is an Integer compared to an int? Ok, the difference may be only a few bytes, but what about the program (which would be "most of them") with tens of thousands of them? (I'm typing this on a Mac, into Mail.app, which is currently eating 1.73GB of memory) > You keep talking about how OO programming is the reason that software today is so inefficient but you offer no data to back it up other than "it doesn't map to the hardware." I'm sorry, but knowing how processors work, it's pretty obvious to me. The data that backs it up is lots of programs (some of which are operating systems) that I use every day, written in OO languages, including (perhaps especially!) OS X, are far slower than they should be given the hardware they're running on. YOU know how processors work too, I know you do, so I know you see my point. >> A modern multi-GHz Linux box running GTK is far less "responsive"-feeling than my old SPARCstation-IPX running fvwm when just tooling around the GUI. A little more time spent by the programmers, ignoring the "easy way out" or heavy OO programming and it'd be FAR faster. > > So it finally comes out: it's the *bad progammers* at fault here. I knew it all along! Don't confuse poor programmers with programming languages. There are always efficiency tradeoffs in programming languages and a good programmer knows how to make the right choices. Yes, I have to acknowledge this; you'll get no argument from me there. But bad programmers are the rule, not the exception. Code written by bad programmers constitutes 90% of the code written today. It's possible to write fast, compact C++ or Java code; we've both seen it. But it's not the norm. KDE, OS X (and several of its apps, Mail.app comes to mind) *are* the norm, and they're both horribly slow for the hardware they're typically run on. In an ideal world, one in which all programmers were competent, OO languages wouldn't be such a problem. So I guess what I really mean is, "Bad programmers are even more detrimental to computing when armed with OO languages". -Dave --Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Feb 9 15:17:08 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2010 16:17:08 -0500 Subject: Algol vs Fortran was RE: VHDL vs Verilog In-Reply-To: <624077.60218.qm@web83909.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <4b6fd060.26695.66eba@cclist.sydex.com> <6F365783BCA.000005DDn0body.h0me@inbox.com> <0A82C779-29AA-41C6-BAF2-C1571B808D0C@neurotica.com> <4B712670.3050201@mail.msu.edu> <16E38B1D-0E55-4287-9DEE-CFE9AD76D686@neurotica.com> <4B71AD23.8040304@mail.msu.edu> <4B71B532.1070007@mail.msu.edu> <624077.60218.qm@web83909.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Feb 9, 2010 at 4:14 PM, geoffrey oltmans wrote: > I wonder how much programmers in the 50's and 60's argued about how many CPU cycles this programming construct took vs. that. ;) Probably a lot. In the earliest days, assemblers were considered a poor use of time on the machine. Of course, these are the people who argued as to how many digits you really need to represent a year on the modern calendar. Hint: 2 digits only takes you so far... ;-) -ethan From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Feb 9 15:17:23 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2010 16:17:23 -0500 Subject: Algol vs Fortran was RE: VHDL vs Verilog In-Reply-To: <624077.60218.qm@web83909.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <4b6fd060.26695.66eba@cclist.sydex.com> <6ed9562426e.0000058dn0body.h0me@inbox.com> <4b700d62.20109.f4bca6@cclist.sydex.com> <6F365783BCA.000005DDn0body.h0me@inbox.com> <0A82C779-29AA-41C6-BAF2-C1571B808D0C@neurotica.com> <4B712670.3050201@mail.msu.edu> <16E38B1D-0E55-4287-9DEE-CFE9AD76D686@neurotica.com> <4B71AD23.8040304@mail.msu.edu> <4B71B532.1070007@mail.msu.edu> <624077.60218.qm@web83909.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <7E77DEE8-DFF6-4D5E-824E-888C845CCDBC@neurotica.com> On Feb 9, 2010, at 4:14 PM, geoffrey oltmans wrote: > I wonder how much programmers in the 50's and 60's argued about how > many CPU cycles this programming construct took vs. that. ;) Well, there were what, six programming constructs at the time? ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Feb 9 15:20:53 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2010 16:20:53 -0500 Subject: Selling Calcomp 565 plotter In-Reply-To: <4B718D8D.4070201@hachti.de> References: <201002021239.53154.pat@computer-refuge.org> <36C3D71D-EC51-4CC0-9ED4-5D59122AEFED@neurotica.com> <4B6F74B6.4050708@hachti.de> <201002090928.03169.pat@computer-refuge.org> <4B718D8D.4070201@hachti.de> Message-ID: > Not?!? I suspect that selling something nice and clean and - most important > - without the remark "untested and sold as is" will bring way more. It's > easy to test the plotter. On eBay "untested" usually is an euphemism for "I > tried to get it working but it didn't work. But I won't tell you that. Just > know that I guarantee for nothing". Patrick is right - serious cleaning is mostly not worth the effort. The most cleaning I ever do mostly involves wet paper towels and a dry paint brushes. Serious bidders will see thru the dirt that remains. > BTW it's the same with Teletype ASR33 and 35. In fact it's not always easy > to get rid of those if they're not in pristine condition. Oh, and I found my new in box ASR-33 today. Any takers? -- Will From cclist at sydex.com Tue Feb 9 15:21:42 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 09 Feb 2010 13:21:42 -0800 Subject: GOTO-less machines, was: Algol vs Fortran was RE: VHDL vs Verilog In-Reply-To: References: <4B7144BC.10154.88B512@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Feb 9, 10 11:19:24 am, Message-ID: <4B716166.29615.F8ABAB@cclist.sydex.com> On 9 Feb 2010 at 20:55, Tony Duell wrote: > What about a Turing machine. I would claim that has no jump > instruciton. And of coruse (apart from the infinite memory), it's > fairly easy to build one in hardware. Or Dataflow machines, for that matter. Would you count SKIP instructions as GOTO? There has been more than one machine with instruction execution depending on the setting of a condition code, so that whole sequences could be skipped without a GOTO per se. There's no real reason that a machine even needs to have every location uniquely tagged by an address for that matter. Turing machines are again a good example. I could conceive of a machine with a WHILE-DO instruction pair, the pairs obeying nesting rules. Early paper-tape driven machines simply looped the tape to perform an iterative instruction sequence. --Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Feb 9 15:23:36 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2010 16:23:36 -0500 Subject: Selling Calcomp 565 plotter In-Reply-To: References: <201002021239.53154.pat@computer-refuge.org> <36C3D71D-EC51-4CC0-9ED4-5D59122AEFED@neurotica.com> <4B6F74B6.4050708@hachti.de> <201002090928.03169.pat@computer-refuge.org> <4B718D8D.4070201@hachti.de> Message-ID: On Feb 9, 2010, at 4:20 PM, William Donzelli wrote: > Oh, and I found my new in box ASR-33 today. Any takers? Holy cow!! -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Feb 9 15:24:52 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2010 16:24:52 -0500 Subject: GOTO-less machines, was: Algol vs Fortran was RE: VHDL vs Verilog In-Reply-To: <4B716166.29615.F8ABAB@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4B7144BC.10154.88B512@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Feb 9, 10 11:19:24 am, <4B716166.29615.F8ABAB@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <14D45465-FE99-42E9-889E-35783D21FFFC@neurotica.com> On Feb 9, 2010, at 4:21 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Would you count SKIP instructions as GOTO? I would. It just has a fixed (relative) target address. > There has been more than one machine with > instruction execution depending on the setting of a condition code, > so that whole sequences could be skipped without a GOTO per se. Indeed, look at ARM. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Tue Feb 9 14:49:41 2010 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2010 12:49:41 -0800 Subject: Algol vs Fortran was RE: VHDL vs Verilog In-Reply-To: References: <4b6fd060.26695.66eba@cclist.sydex.com> <6ed9562426e.0000058dn0body.h0me@inbox.com> <4b700d62.20109.f4bca6@cclist.sydex.com> <6F365783BCA.000005DDn0body.h0me@inbox.com> <0A82C779-29AA-41C6-BAF2-C1571B808D0C@neurotica.com> <4B712670.3050201@mail.msu.edu> <16E38B1D-0E55-4287-9DEE-CFE9AD76D686@neurotica.com> <4B71AD23.8040304@mail.msu.edu> <4B71B532.1070007@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <011719EC-CAE5-4482-A704-F2359BB17E52@mail.msu.edu> On Feb 9, 2010, at 12:28 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On Feb 9, 2010, at 2:19 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: >>> Ok. Show me a processor that has an "object" data type, that has >>> subtypes like "member" and "method" and such. There aren't any. >>> Translating from such incredibly high-level constructs to >>> registers, stacks, and memory locations is not without a lot of >>> overhead. Try to envision what happens in the instruction stream >>> during things like virtual function lookups in C++, for example. >> >> Ok, I'm envisioning it. A few instructions to do a vtable lookup >> and a jump to the correct virtual function. Wow. So those extra >> instructions are what's making every machine in the world >> (apparently) very very slow? > > Yes, to a large degree! You're talking about it as if it happens > ONCE, and you know it doesn't. Would you care to estimate how many > of those vtable lookup happen when someone simply clicks a mouse in > a modern OS? I don't know for certain, but I'm willing to bet that > it's thousands. I'm not going to speculate on things I have no knowledge of. Even if it were thousands, that would mean an overhead of tens of thousands of instructions. On a modern CPU, in a user-interaction scenario, that doesn't even begin to be noticable to the user. If it's millions of calls in a tight loop doing some heavy calculation then it will have an impact; but anyone calling a virtual function in such a scenario is doing it wrong. > >> In C#, virtual lookups are cached at runtime so the cost of the >> first virtual call to a function goes through the vtable routine; >> future calls are very fast. > > That's nice. Now if only C# weren't a proprietary product from one > company which happens to be obsessed with creating vendor lock-in > situations. ;) > > (though actually, hmm, that IS rather nice...) > >> Objects in their raw form are not "incredibly high-level." In C++, >> an object is referenced via a pointer; data fields are accessed via >> offsets just like in C. There is a small overhead for virtual >> function dispatch. I fail to see how this overhead is somehow >> responsible for performance problems in computers today. > > There's a bit of congruity between C's structs and C++/C#/Java/etc > objects, but.. > >> What other overheads/inefficiencies are you thinking of? > > ...what happens when someone uses an Integer instead of an int? A > whole object gets created when all one likely needed was a memory > location. Depends greatly on the language. Don't confuse one implementation with ALL OO programming languages. In C++ an integer maps to a register. Same in C#. Same in objc. Java does this differently. > What happens when one adds that Integer to another Integer? Add in > the address offset calculations to find out where the actual int is > stored within the Integer object, what would those be on most > architectures...two or three instructions? So our nice single- > instruction add turns into at least five instructions. > > So you're arguing that increasing the number of instructions > required to execute a simple operation by a factor of five doesn't > involve overhead? Ok, howabout when it happens all the time, which > additions tend to in most programs? See above. > > In C (for example), there's no motivation at all to wrap a struct > around an int just for the sake of doing so, so it doesn't happen. > > And howabout template programming. I've never seen executables so > big as the ones in which templates were overused. Template programming is another paradigm altogether, it's basically C+ + specific and it has very little to do with OO. (It's also an abomination along with most of C++.) > (yes, here I have to give a nod to your point about bad programmers > below!) All in the name of "saving programmer time", as if that's > such a big deal, consequences be damned. > > Note well, however, that I'm talking about more than just the > number of instructions required to accomplish a given task. Sure, > that in itself has bad side effects when you think about what it > does to the instruction cache hit rates...the principal of locality > of reference is blown out the window. But what about memory > utilization? How big, in bytes, is an Integer compared to an int? > Ok, the difference may be only a few bytes, but what about the > program (which would be "most of them") with tens of thousands of > them? (I'm typing this on a Mac, into Mail.app, which is currently > eating 1.73GB of memory) I beleive tha in Objective C, ints are still registers, no magical Integer objects here. Sounds like Mail.app is poorly written. I'm running Outlook here (written in a mix of c and c++) and it's using 100mb (with an inbox size of 10gb...). > >> You keep talking about how OO programming is the reason that >> software today is so inefficient but you offer no data to back it >> up other than "it doesn't map to the hardware." > > I'm sorry, but knowing how processors work, it's pretty obvious to > me. The data that backs it up is lots of programs (some of which > are operating systems) that I use every day, written in OO > languages, including (perhaps especially!) OS X, are far slower than > they should be given the hardware they're running on. YOU know how > processors work too, I know you do, so I know you see my point. This is only a valid argument if you have an OS X written in plain C and an OS X written in OO that you can do a real comparison between. Anything else is speculation. OO does have its overheads, I disagree that they are anywhere nearly as bad as you claim them to be. Speculating that OS foo is far slower than it "should be" based on anecdotal evidence is not proof. > >>> A modern multi-GHz Linux box running GTK is far less "responsive"- >>> feeling than my old SPARCstation-IPX running fvwm when just >>> tooling around the GUI. A little more time spent by the >>> programmers, ignoring the "easy way out" or heavy OO programming >>> and it'd be FAR faster. >> >> So it finally comes out: it's the *bad progammers* at fault here. >> I knew it all along! Don't confuse poor programmers with >> programming languages. There are always efficiency tradeoffs in >> programming languages and a good programmer knows how to make the >> right choices. > > Yes, I have to acknowledge this; you'll get no argument from me > there. But bad programmers are the rule, not the exception. Code > written by bad programmers constitutes 90% of the code written > today. It's possible to write fast, compact C++ or Java code; we've > both seen it. But it's not the norm. KDE, OS X (and several of its > apps, Mail.app comes to mind) *are* the norm, and they're both > horribly slow for the hardware they're typically run on. > > In an ideal world, one in which all programmers were competent, OO > languages wouldn't be such a problem. So I guess what I really mean > is, "Bad programmers are even more detrimental to computing when > armed with OO languages". You really think these same programmers would somehow write better code if only they would stop using OO? Josh > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire > Port Charlotte, FL > > From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Feb 9 15:31:53 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2010 13:31:53 -0800 (PST) Subject: Selling Calcomp 565 plotter In-Reply-To: from Ethan Dicks at "Feb 9, 10 03:57:15 pm" Message-ID: <201002092131.o19LVrtx020610@floodgap.com> > > _That's horribly disheartening. _I'm glad my parents recognized the fact > > that it'd be better for the house to be full of equipment that they didn't > > recognize than have me out selling/doing drugs like everyone else in my > > school. > > My parents, too. In high school (1982), I had a PDP-8/L and a PDP-8/i > in my room. Still have them. The fun part was wheeling the empty > H960 rack down the street when I moved into my first college > apartment. My childhood seems so deprived by comparison. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- It's not Camelot, but it's not Cleveland either. -- Boston mayor Kevin White From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Feb 9 15:56:16 2010 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Tue, 09 Feb 2010 14:56:16 -0700 Subject: Selling Calcomp 565 plotter In-Reply-To: References: <201002021239.53154.pat@computer-refuge.org> <36C3D71D-EC51-4CC0-9ED4-5D59122AEFED@neurotica.com> <4B6F74B6.4050708@hachti.de> <201002090928.03169.pat@computer-refuge.org> <4B718D8D.4070201@hachti.de> Message-ID: <4B71DA00.8070301@jetnet.ab.ca> Dave McGuire wrote: > On Feb 9, 2010, at 4:20 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >> Oh, and I found my new in box ASR-33 today. Any takers? > > Holy cow!! Holy Cow , Batman. From spc at conman.org Tue Feb 9 15:57:47 2010 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2010 16:57:47 -0500 Subject: Algol vs Fortran was RE: VHDL vs Verilog In-Reply-To: <4B71B532.1070007@mail.msu.edu> References: <4b700d62.20109.f4bca6@cclist.sydex.com> <6F365783BCA.000005DDn0body.h0me@inbox.com> <0A82C779-29AA-41C6-BAF2-C1571B808D0C@neurotica.com> <4B712670.3050201@mail.msu.edu> <16E38B1D-0E55-4287-9DEE-CFE9AD76D686@neurotica.com> <4B71AD23.8040304@mail.msu.edu> <4B71B532.1070007@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <20100209215747.GA8039@brevard.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Josh Dersch once stated: > Dave McGuire wrote: > >On Feb 9, 2010, at 1:44 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > > > > Ok. Show me a processor that has an "object" data type, that has > >subtypes like "member" and "method" and such. There aren't any. > >Translating from such incredibly high-level constructs to registers, > >stacks, and memory locations is not without a lot of overhead. Try to > >envision what happens in the instruction stream during things like > >virtual function lookups in C++, for example. > > Ok, I'm envisioning it. A few instructions to do a vtable lookup and a > jump to the correct virtual function. Wow. So those extra instructions > are what's making every machine in the world (apparently) very very slow? It's worse than that. Shared libraries also take their toll, at least, for those systems that use the ELF format. The following article is rather instructive for those not familiar with the dynamics of dynamic linking: http://www.iecc.com/linker/linker10.html So it's a tradeoff---dynamic libraries allow a smaller executable (the executable for Firefox 3.5.7 on my system is only 57k, which surprised the hell out of me, but then again, it loads about 42M of libraries) and less memory usage overall (about 4M of shared libraries are used by other processes) *and* allow a library to be fixed without relinking the entire program, but at a cost of slower runtime (because shared libraries and vtables use pretty much the same logic). About the worst case I can see is a virtual call method into a shared library, in the middle of a crital loop. To mangle a quote: a few cycles here, a few cycles there, and pretty soon you're talking real time. And while I could load up RedHat 5.2 (last decent version of RedHat in my opinion) on a modern machine (and yes, it would fly on today's hardware), I would end up having to recompile X to use my video card, and I would have to suffer Netscape 4, unless, of course, I wanted to try to compile Firefox. I would also lose out on the C99 features of GCC (which I do use---C99 is a nice progression), which means I would have to recompile GCC, etc. etc. The other side of the coin is that the 2.6Gh machine sitting below my desk can do things that my old system (a 150MHz 486 with 32M RAM) would die trying to do. I can actually manipulate digital photos for one thing. Another thing, I can solve jumbles *really fast*, burning through half a million words in 0.18 seconds (heck, I have a version that does that in 0.006 seconds, but in order to to that, I use 15M of memory when running). I could probably edit video on this box if I had the software to do so. Couldn't even *conceive* of that on my Coco (which I love dearly). Now, do I wish Firefox was faster? Heck, I'd take stability (it crashes on a whim, but I have to use Firefox 3.5 for some of the stuff I do for work) over speed, but ... yeah, speed would be nice. Ah, anyway, enough rambling ... -spc (http://prog21.dadgum.com/ makes for some interesting reading [1]) [1] http://prog21.dadgum.com/50.html http://prog21.dadgum.com/45.html http://prog21.dadgum.com/47.html http://prog21.dadgum.com/29.html But really, all the entries are good ... From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Feb 9 15:58:29 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2010 16:58:29 -0500 Subject: Algol vs Fortran was RE: VHDL vs Verilog In-Reply-To: <011719EC-CAE5-4482-A704-F2359BB17E52@mail.msu.edu> References: <4b6fd060.26695.66eba@cclist.sydex.com> <6ed9562426e.0000058dn0body.h0me@inbox.com> <4b700d62.20109.f4bca6@cclist.sydex.com> <6F365783BCA.000005DDn0body.h0me@inbox.com> <0A82C779-29AA-41C6-BAF2-C1571B808D0C@neurotica.com> <4B712670.3050201@mail.msu.edu> <16E38B1D-0E55-4287-9DEE-CFE9AD76D686@neurotica.com> <4B71AD23.8040304@mail.msu.edu> <4B71B532.1070007@mail.msu.edu> <011719EC-CAE5-4482-A704-F2359BB17E52@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <6D2F1464-34E0-4601-AE47-7AD28DE28542@neurotica.com> On Feb 9, 2010, at 3:49 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: >>>> Ok. Show me a processor that has an "object" data type, that >>>> has subtypes like "member" and "method" and such. There aren't >>>> any. Translating from such incredibly high-level constructs to >>>> registers, stacks, and memory locations is not without a lot of >>>> overhead. Try to envision what happens in the instruction >>>> stream during things like virtual function lookups in C++, for >>>> example. >>> >>> Ok, I'm envisioning it. A few instructions to do a vtable lookup >>> and a jump to the correct virtual function. Wow. So those extra >>> instructions are what's making every machine in the world >>> (apparently) very very slow? >> >> Yes, to a large degree! You're talking about it as if it happens >> ONCE, and you know it doesn't. Would you care to estimate how >> many of those vtable lookup happen when someone simply clicks a >> mouse in a modern OS? I don't know for certain, but I'm willing >> to bet that it's thousands. > > I'm not going to speculate on things I have no knowledge of. Even > if it were thousands, that would mean an overhead of tens of > thousands of instructions. On a modern CPU, in a user-interaction > scenario, that doesn't even begin to be noticable to the user. You're speaking from the standpoint of running one program, once, alone on one computer. That's not how (most) computers are used. How many processes are running, right now, on your Windows box? 146 right now on my Mac, *nearly seven hundred* on the central computer here (a big Sun). Those "this code is only 20% slower" inefficiencies that allowed us to get back on the golf course fifteen minutes sooner do add up. > If it's millions of calls in a tight loop doing some heavy > calculation then it will have an impact; but anyone calling a > virtual function in such a scenario is doing it wrong. ...which happens ALL THE TIME. I've seen (and fixed) code like that in every programming job I've ever had. Loop strength reduction is something that nearly all optimizing compilers do, but the fact that compilers have optimizers doesn't give us free license to write sloppy code. There will always be situations in which the compiler can't reduce the strength of a loop, and they will always get right by you when you're writing that code if you don't pay attention. >> ...what happens when someone uses an Integer instead of an int? >> A whole object gets created when all one likely needed was a >> memory location. > > Depends greatly on the language. Don't confuse one implementation > with ALL OO programming languages. In C++ an integer maps to a > register. Same in C#. Same in objc. Java does this differently. I'm going to go dig into a C++ implementation and look at the in- memory composition of an integer object. I sure hope you're right. >> And howabout template programming. I've never seen executables >> so big as the ones in which templates were overused. > > Template programming is another paradigm altogether, it's basically > C++ specific and it has very little to do with OO. (It's also an > abomination along with most of C++.) C# has a form of templates, if memory serves. I believe they're called "generics". Name one non-OO language that has such a construct. I don't know of any. >> Note well, however, that I'm talking about more than just the >> number of instructions required to accomplish a given task. Sure, >> that in itself has bad side effects when you think about what it >> does to the instruction cache hit rates...the principal of >> locality of reference is blown out the window. But what about >> memory utilization? How big, in bytes, is an Integer compared to >> an int? Ok, the difference may be only a few bytes, but what >> about the program (which would be "most of them") with tens of >> thousands of them? (I'm typing this on a Mac, into Mail.app, >> which is currently eating 1.73GB of memory) > > I beleive tha in Objective C, ints are still registers, no magical > Integer objects here. Sounds like Mail.app is poorly written. I'm > running Outlook here (written in a mix of c and c++) and it's using > 100mb (with an inbox size of 10gb...). Again I'm going to try to find the in-memory representation of those integer objects. Regardless, however, this was just an example...I'm sure you see my point. You're suggesting that OO programming involves no runtime overhead over procedural/imperative languages when run on processors whose architecture is arguably procedural/imperative. >>> You keep talking about how OO programming is the reason that >>> software today is so inefficient but you offer no data to back it >>> up other than "it doesn't map to the hardware." >> >> I'm sorry, but knowing how processors work, it's pretty obvious >> to me. The data that backs it up is lots of programs (some of >> which are operating systems) that I use every day, written in OO >> languages, including (perhaps especially!) OS X, are far slower >> than they should be given the hardware they're running on. YOU >> know how processors work too, I know you do, so I know you see my >> point. > > This is only a valid argument if you have an OS X written in plain > C and an OS X written in OO that you can do a real comparison > between. Anything else is speculation. OO does have its > overheads, I disagree that they are anywhere nearly as bad as you > claim them to be. Speculating that OS foo is far slower than it > "should be" based on anecdotal evidence is not proof. It may be, at least in part, speculation...but with lots of experience to back it up. Quite simply, almost everything I've seen written in C++ and Java (even with native compilation) is slow, and most everything I've seen written in C, assembler, and Forth is fast. One such example in which the functionality is similar is groff vs. nroff. Big speed difference between the two on similar hardware performing similar functions. Speculating that OS foo is far slower than it "should be" is something that I think I can get a pretty good feel for, having used dozens of operating systems on dozens of types of computers over dozens of years. You're suggesting that my argument is completely illegitimate because I'm not willing to spend the next two weeks cooking up some sort of a benchmark suite to prove to you, by the numbers, something that I've never heard anyone else disagree with, ever? >> In an ideal world, one in which all programmers were competent, >> OO languages wouldn't be such a problem. So I guess what I really >> mean is, "Bad programmers are even more detrimental to computing >> when armed with OO languages". > > You really think these same programmers would somehow write better > code if only they would stop using OO? Yes, absolutely. Most OO languages give bad programmers more code- inflating features to misunderstand and abuse. If they don't know how to write good code in C, which is a tiny, very fast, very low- overhead, very simple language with very few features, how can they be expected to write good code in C++, C# or Java, which are anything but? Handing an idiot a loaded rifle is dangerous. Handing an idiot a loaded rifle with a loaded grenade launcher is MORE dangerous. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cclist at sydex.com Tue Feb 9 16:00:30 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 09 Feb 2010 14:00:30 -0800 Subject: Algol vs Fortran was RE: VHDL vs Verilog In-Reply-To: <624077.60218.qm@web83909.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <4b6fd060.26695.66eba@cclist.sydex.com>, , <624077.60218.qm@web83909.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4B716A7E.771.11C31C8@cclist.sydex.com> On 9 Feb 2010 at 13:14, geoffrey oltmans wrote: > I wonder how much programmers in the 50's and 60's argued about how > many CPU cycles this programming construct took vs. that. ;) A lot--you also learned to spend your time where it mattered. As a simple exercise, try writing a CDC 6600 loop to move a non-zero number of word pairs (non-overlapped), such that you get one instruction issue per cycle--and two words per loop traversal--and keep the whole thing in the instruction "stack". Similarly, a lot of time was spent figuring out bit-twiddling shortcuts. Some were remarkably clever. Heck, the code to save and restore all registers was pure cleverness. It was a different world. --Chuck From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Feb 9 16:00:30 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2010 17:00:30 -0500 Subject: Selling Calcomp 565 plotter In-Reply-To: <201002092131.o19LVrtx020610@floodgap.com> References: <201002092131.o19LVrtx020610@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Feb 9, 2010 at 4:31 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> My parents, too. ?In high school (1982), I had a PDP-8/L and a PDP-8/i >> in my room. ?Still have them. ?The fun part was wheeling the empty >> H960 rack down the street when I moved into my first college >> apartment. > > My childhood seems so deprived by comparison. Combination of opportunity and luck - I've posted many times on that -8/L. Because I had that, I knew what an -8/i was when I saw it (because I had the 1968 Small Computer Handbook). I was called in to "fix the mainframe" and found that mostly, it was just 60% of the bulbs being burned out. At $2.50 per bulb from 1-800-DIGITAL, the previous owner decided to let me haul it away rather than pay that much in materials. I learned more than one lesson that day - one of the most enduring is that there's plenty of room in a VW Microbus for two DEC racks and the stuff that goes in them. ;-) -ethan P.S. - I still have the Microbus, too. From spc at conman.org Tue Feb 9 16:18:31 2010 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2010 17:18:31 -0500 Subject: Algol vs Fortran was RE: VHDL vs Verilog In-Reply-To: <6D2F1464-34E0-4601-AE47-7AD28DE28542@neurotica.com> References: <6F365783BCA.000005DDn0body.h0me@inbox.com> <0A82C779-29AA-41C6-BAF2-C1571B808D0C@neurotica.com> <4B712670.3050201@mail.msu.edu> <16E38B1D-0E55-4287-9DEE-CFE9AD76D686@neurotica.com> <4B71AD23.8040304@mail.msu.edu> <4B71B532.1070007@mail.msu.edu> <011719EC-CAE5-4482-A704-F2359BB17E52@mail.msu.edu> <6D2F1464-34E0-4601-AE47-7AD28DE28542@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20100209221831.GB8039@brevard.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Dave McGuire once stated: > On Feb 9, 2010, at 3:49 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > >Template programming is another paradigm altogether, it's basically > >C++ specific and it has very little to do with OO. (It's also an > >abomination along with most of C++.) > > C# has a form of templates, if memory serves. I believe they're > called "generics". Name one non-OO language that has such a > construct. I don't know of any. Heh ... I've done templates in C. Portably too! Of course, it would win the "Biggest Abuser of the C Preprocessor" Award, but I did it (back in college---it seemed like a good idea at the time). > >I beleive tha in Objective C, ints are still registers, no magical > >Integer objects here. Sounds like Mail.app is poorly written. I'm > >running Outlook here (written in a mix of c and c++) and it's using > >100mb (with an inbox size of 10gb...). > > Again I'm going to try to find the in-memory representation of > those integer objects. Regardless, however, this was just an > example...I'm sure you see my point. You're suggesting that OO > programming involves no runtime overhead over procedural/imperative > languages when run on processors whose architecture is arguably > procedural/imperative. It really depends upon the implementation of objects. I've done enough "manual object oriented programming in C" to guess what C++ does under the hood. For the "objects" that had fixed methods (not real sure of the terminology here, as I don't program in C++) the overhead is just one additional parameter (the object itself, or "this"). If the compiler can figure out the method to call at compile time, there's very little overhead. > >You really think these same programmers would somehow write better > >code if only they would stop using OO? > > Yes, absolutely. Most OO languages give bad programmers more code- > inflating features to misunderstand and abuse. If they don't know > how to write good code in C, which is a tiny, very fast, very low- > overhead, very simple language with very few features, how can they > be expected to write good code in C++, C# or Java, which are anything > but? I counter that argument with PHP pre 5x. Not OO at all, and the code quality, is ... um ... let's just say that osCommerce (a shopping cart written in PHP) has been stuck at version 2.2 for several years because it's too hideous to maintain ... -spc (Might even suggest Perl, but then the counter to that is Forth ... ) From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Tue Feb 9 16:22:07 2010 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2010 14:22:07 -0800 Subject: Algol vs Fortran was RE: VHDL vs Verilog In-Reply-To: <6D2F1464-34E0-4601-AE47-7AD28DE28542@neurotica.com> References: <4b6fd060.26695.66eba@cclist.sydex.com> <6ed9562426e.0000058dn0body.h0me@inbox.com> <4b700d62.20109.f4bca6@cclist.sydex.com> <6F365783BCA.000005DDn0body.h0me@inbox.com> <0A82C779-29AA-41C6-BAF2-C1571B808D0C@neurotica.com> <4B712670.3050201@mail.msu.edu> <16E38B1D-0E55-4287-9DEE-CFE9AD76D686@neurotica.com> <4B71AD23.8040304@mail.msu.edu> <4B71B532.1070007@mail.msu.edu> <011719EC-CAE5-4482-A704-F2359BB17E52@mail.msu.edu> <6D2F1464-34E0-4601-AE47-7AD28DE28542@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <8FEBF117-CA86-46DB-A611-DBFCBE392015@mail.msu.edu> On Feb 9, 2010, at 1:58 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On Feb 9, 2010, at 3:49 PM, Josh >>>> >>> Yes, to a large degree! You're talking about it as if it happens >>> ONCE, and you know it doesn't. Would you care to estimate how >>> many of those vtable lookup happen when someone simply clicks a >>> mouse in a modern OS? I don't know for certain, but I'm willing >>> to bet that it's thousands. >> >> I'm not going to speculate on things I have no knowledge of. Even >> if it were thousands, that would mean an overhead of tens of >> thousands of instructions. On a modern CPU, in a user-interaction >> scenario, that doesn't even begin to be noticable to the user. > > You're speaking from the standpoint of running one program, once, > alone on one computer. That's not how (most) computers are used. > How many processes are running, right now, on your Windows box? 146 > right now on my Mac, *nearly seven hundred* on the central computer > here (a big Sun). Those "this code is only 20% slower" > inefficiencies that allowed us to get back on the golf course > fifteen minutes sooner do add up. So you're clicking every button in every process running on your machine constantly? My point is that for *many* operations (like user- interactions which typically are gated on the response time of humans) virtual call overhead is acceptable. > >> If it's millions of calls in a tight loop doing some heavy >> calculation then it will have an impact; but anyone calling a >> virtual function in such a scenario is doing it wrong. > > ...which happens ALL THE TIME. I've seen (and fixed) code like > that in every programming job I've ever had. Loop strength > reduction is something that nearly all optimizing compilers do, but > the fact that compilers have optimizers doesn't give us free license > to write sloppy code. There will always be situations in which the > compiler can't reduce the strength of a loop, and they will always > get right by you when you're writing that code if you don't pay > attention. So again, the problem is the programmers, not the programming paradigm. > >>> ...what happens when someone uses an Integer instead of an int? A >>> whole object gets created when all one likely needed was a memory >>> location. >> >> Depends greatly on the language. Don't confuse one implementation >> with ALL OO programming languages. In C++ an integer maps to a >> register. Same in C#. Same in objc. Java does this differently. > > I'm going to go dig into a C++ implementation and look at the in- > memory composition of an integer object. I sure hope you're right. C++ definitely has no concept of an integer object. (it offers no built/in object types, not even a base Object class.) > >>> And howabout template programming. I've never seen executables so >>> big as the ones in which templates were overused. >> >> Template programming is another paradigm altogether, it's basically >> C++ specific and it has very little to do with OO. (It's also an >> abomination along with most of C++.) > > C# has a form of templates, if memory serves. I believe they're > called "generics". Name one non-OO language that has such a > construct. I don't know of any. C# generics and C++ template metaprogramming are nowhere near the same thing. They both let you easily define reusable container objects (and for that use, they are efficient.). C++ templates actually provide a Turing-complete language (an ugly one) that runs at compile time. You can do clever things with it, you can also do horrible things with it. C++ metaprogramming is very much a paradigm unto itself. > >>> Note well, however, that I'm talking about more than just the >>> number of instructions required to accomplish a given task. Sure, >>> that in itself ehas bad side effects when you think about what it >>> does to the instruction cache hit rates...the principal of >>> locality of reference is blown out the window. But what about >>> memory utilization? How big, in bytes, is an Integer compared to >>> an int? Ok, the difference may be only a few bytes, but what >>> about the program (which would be "most of them") with tens of >>> thousands of them? (I'm typing this on a Mac, into Mail.app, >>> which is currently eating 1.73GB of memory) >> >> I beleive tha in Objective C, ints are still registers, no magical >> Integer objects here. Sounds like Mail.app is poorly written. I'm >> running Outlook here (written in a mix of c and c++) and it's using >> 100mb (with an inbox size of 10gb...). > > Again I'm going to try to find the in-memory representation of > those integer objects. Regardless, however, this was just an > example...I'm sure you see my point. You're suggesting that OO > programming involves no runtime overhead over procedural/imperative > languages when run on processors whose architecture is arguably > procedural/imperative. Never said that. My argument has and will continue to be that the performance impact is not nearly as bad as you are implying. > >>>> You keep talking about howi OO programming is the reason that >>>> software today is so inefficient but you offer no data to back it >>>> up other than "it doesn't map to the hardware." >>> >>> I'm sorry, but knowing how processors work, it's pretty obvious to >>> me. The data that backs it up is lots of programs (some of which >>> are operating systems) that I use every day, written in OO >>> languages, including (perhaps especially!) OS X, are far slower >>> than they should be given the hardware they're running on. YOU >>> know how processors work too, I know you do, so I know you see my >>> point. >> >> This is only a valid argument if you have an OS X written in plain >> C and an OS X written in OO that you can do a real comparison >> between. Anything else is speculation. OO does have its >> overheads, I disagree that they are anywhere nearly as bad as you >> claim them to be. Speculating that OS foo is far slower than it >> "should be" based on anecdotal evidence is not proof. > > It may be, at least in part, speculation...but with lots of > experience to back it up. Quite simply, almost everything I've seen > written in C++ and Java (even with native compilation) is slow, and > most everything I've seen written in C, assembler, and Forth is fast. I could argue that I've also seen the exact opposite, but I'm not sure what that would prove. > One such example in which the functionality is similar is groff vs. > nroff. Big speed difference between the two on similar hardware > performing similar functions. > > Speculating that OS foo is far slower than it "should be" is > something that I think I can get a pretty good feel for, having used > dozens of operating systems on dozens of types of computers over > dozens of years. You're suggesting that my argument is completely > illegitimate because I'm not willing to spend the next two weeks > cooking up some sort of a benchmark suite to prove to you, by the > numbers, something that I've never heard anyone else disagree with, > ever? I'm suggesting that you are exaggerating the performance impact and that you keep basing these projections on feelings. > >>> In an ideal world, one in which all programmers were competent, OO >>> languages wouldn't be such a problem. So I guess what I really >>> mean is, "Bad programmers are even more detrimental to computing >>> when armed with OO languages". >> >> You really think these same programmers would somehow write better >> code if only they would stop using OO? > > Yes, absolutely. Most OO languages give bad programmers more code- > inflating features to misunderstand and abuse. If they don't know > how to write good code in C, which is a tiny, very fast, very low- > overhead, very simple language with very few features, how can they > be expected to write good code in C++, C# or Java, which are > anything but? I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree here. > > Handing an idiot a loaded rifle is dangerous. Handing an idiot a > loaded rifle with a loaded grenade launcher is MORE dangerous Yes. Programming languages are just like firearms. If you want to discuss this further, feel free to contact me offlist, I'm already feeling guilty for dragging this thread wayyyy off topic. Josh > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire > Port Charlotte, FL > > From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Feb 9 16:46:33 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2010 17:46:33 -0500 Subject: Algol vs Fortran was RE: VHDL vs Verilog In-Reply-To: <8FEBF117-CA86-46DB-A611-DBFCBE392015@mail.msu.edu> References: <4b6fd060.26695.66eba@cclist.sydex.com> <6ed9562426e.0000058dn0body.h0me@inbox.com> <4b700d62.20109.f4bca6@cclist.sydex.com> <6F365783BCA.000005DDn0body.h0me@inbox.com> <0A82C779-29AA-41C6-BAF2-C1571B808D0C@neurotica.com> <4B712670.3050201@mail.msu.edu> <16E38B1D-0E55-4287-9DEE-CFE9AD76D686@neurotica.com> <4B71AD23.8040304@mail.msu.edu> <4B71B532.1070007@mail.msu.edu> <011719EC-CAE5-4482-A704-F2359BB17E52@mail.msu.edu> <6D2F1464-34E0-4601-AE47-7AD28DE28542@neurotica.com> <8FEBF117-CA86-46DB-A611-DBFCBE392015@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <294DDFB2-7746-4C58-BC7C-FBA00EEB2243@neurotica.com> On Feb 9, 2010, at 5:22 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: >> You're speaking from the standpoint of running one program, once, >> alone on one computer. That's not how (most) computers are used. >> How many processes are running, right now, on your Windows box? >> 146 right now on my Mac, *nearly seven hundred* on the central >> computer here (a big Sun). Those "this code is only 20% slower" >> inefficiencies that allowed us to get back on the golf course >> fifteen minutes sooner do add up. > > So you're clicking every button in every process running on your > machine constantly? Of course not. But don't assume I'm the only person using this machine. It's sitting there receiving and doing spam filtering on about 90K emails per day, serving web pages for a small stack of web sites, being a database server with about 20GB of data behind it...The machine isn't sitting there idle waiting for me to click on something. That machine doesn't even have a graphical console. There's more to what computers do than run whatever app one particular user is clicking at at any given time. > My point is that for *many* operations (like user-interactions > which typically are gated on the response time of humans) virtual > call overhead is acceptable. If that's the only thing, or one of a very small number of things, running on the (very very fast) machine, sure. >>> Depends greatly on the language. Don't confuse one >>> implementation with ALL OO programming languages. In C++ an >>> integer maps to a register. Same in C#. Same in objc. Java >>> does this differently. >> >> I'm going to go dig into a C++ implementation and look at the in- >> memory composition of an integer object. I sure hope you're right. > > C++ definitely has no concept of an integer object. (it offers no > built/in object types, not even a base Object class.) Again, it was an example, taken from Java, because I know Java much better than I know C++. >> C# has a form of templates, if memory serves. I believe they're >> called "generics". Name one non-OO language that has such a >> construct. I don't know of any. > > C# generics and C++ template metaprogramming are nowhere near the > same thing. They both let you easily define reusable container > objects (and for that use, they are efficient.). C++ templates > actually provide a Turing-complete language (an ugly one) that runs > at compile time. You can do clever things with it, you can also do > horrible things with it. > > C++ metaprogramming is very much a paradigm unto itself. Everything I've read about generics describes them as a form of templates. Everything. You're asserting that they're completely different? If so, I will stand corrected, and chalk it up to a lot of bad info on peoples' web sites. I myself don't have a Windows computer so I don't use C#, so I can't speak from direct experience there. >> It may be, at least in part, speculation...but with lots of >> experience to back it up. Quite simply, almost everything I've >> seen written in C++ and Java (even with native compilation) is >> slow, and most everything I've seen written in C, assembler, and >> Forth is fast. > > I could argue that I've also seen the exact opposite, but I'm not > sure what that would prove. You have? Seriously? >> One such example in which the functionality is similar is groff >> vs. nroff. Big speed difference between the two on similar >> hardware performing similar functions. >> >> Speculating that OS foo is far slower than it "should be" is >> something that I think I can get a pretty good feel for, having >> used dozens of operating systems on dozens of types of computers >> over dozens of years. You're suggesting that my argument is >> completely illegitimate because I'm not willing to spend the next >> two weeks cooking up some sort of a benchmark suite to prove to >> you, by the numbers, something that I've never heard anyone else >> disagree with, ever? > > I'm suggesting that you are exaggerating the performance impact and > that you keep basing these projections on feelings. Feelings? No, experience. Big difference. Experience with and knowledge of the past. There is NO RATIONAL REASON why a GUI-based OS should need more than a billion bytes of memory and a billion-plus clock cycles per second just to boot. You and I (and many others on this list) have plenty of examples of machines that do the same thing with a tiny fraction of those resources. Windows, OS X, and Linux (but only with Gnome or KDE) are fat, bloated, slow, lumbering pigs, and it's due to sloppy programming and misapplication of tools. That is my assertion. My proof is that I use my dual 1.8GHz PPC with 4GB of RAM for the EXACT SAME STUFF every day that I used my 40MHz SPARC with 32MB of RAM to do every day, and I bump up against the performance limitations of both to essentially the same degree. Playing music, playing video files, telnetting, sshing, editing, compiling, browsing the web, etc etc etc. The apps are a bit prettier now, certainly moreso than with fvwm, but I'd happily live without that. >>>> In an ideal world, one in which all programmers were competent, >>>> OO languages wouldn't be such a problem. So I guess what I >>>> really mean is, "Bad programmers are even more detrimental to >>>> computing when armed with OO languages". >>> >>> You really think these same programmers would somehow write >>> better code if only they would stop using OO? >> >> Yes, absolutely. Most OO languages give bad programmers more >> code-inflating features to misunderstand and abuse. If they don't >> know how to write good code in C, which is a tiny, very fast, very >> low-overhead, very simple language with very few features, how can >> they be expected to write good code in C++, C# or Java, which are >> anything but? > > I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree here. I'm fine with that. >> Handing an idiot a loaded rifle is dangerous. Handing an idiot a >> loaded rifle with a loaded grenade launcher is MORE dangerous > > Yes. Programming languages are just like firearms. Wow. So I'm not allowed to use analogies here? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From oltmansg at bellsouth.net Tue Feb 9 16:51:03 2010 From: oltmansg at bellsouth.net (geoffrey oltmans) Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2010 14:51:03 -0800 (PST) Subject: Algol vs Fortran was RE: VHDL vs Verilog In-Reply-To: <20100209221831.GB8039@brevard.conman.org> References: <6F365783BCA.000005DDn0body.h0me@inbox.com> <0A82C779-29AA-41C6-BAF2-C1571B808D0C@neurotica.com> <4B712670.3050201@mail.msu.edu> <16E38B1D-0E55-4287-9DEE-CFE9AD76D686@neurotica.com> <4B71AD23.8040304@mail.msu.edu> <4B71B532.1070007@mail.msu.edu> <011719EC-CAE5-4482-A704-F2359BB17E52@mail.msu.edu> <6D2F1464-34E0-4601-AE47-7AD28DE28542@neurotica.com> <20100209221831.GB8039@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: <323786.88210.qm@web83905.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> I'm not so sure that the overhead for C++ objects is quite a bad as everyone's making them out to be. Most of it boils down to simple pointer math and in other cases the compiler itself can abstract away some of the offset calculations. If variables live on the stack anyway, you'd have to do these offset calculations to get the data as well. ________________________________ From: Sean Conner To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Sent: Tue, February 9, 2010 4:18:31 PM Subject: Re: Algol vs Fortran was RE: VHDL vs Verilog It was thus said that the Great Dave McGuire once stated: > On Feb 9, 2010, at 3:49 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > >Template programming is another paradigm altogether, it's basically > >C++ specific and it has very little to do with OO. (It's also an > >abomination along with most of C++.) > > C# has a form of templates, if memory serves. I believe they're > called "generics". Name one non-OO language that has such a > construct. I don't know of any. Heh ... I've done templates in C. Portably too! Of course, it would win the "Biggest Abuser of the C Preprocessor" Award, but I did it (back in college---it seemed like a good idea at the time). > >I beleive tha in Objective C, ints are still registers, no magical > >Integer objects here. Sounds like Mail.app is poorly written. I'm > >running Outlook here (written in a mix of c and c++) and it's using > >100mb (with an inbox size of 10gb...). > > Again I'm going to try to find the in-memory representation of > those integer objects. Regardless, however, this was just an > example...I'm sure you see my point. You're suggesting that OO > programming involves no runtime overhead over procedural/imperative > languages when run on processors whose architecture is arguably > procedural/imperative. It really depends upon the implementation of objects. I've done enough "manual object oriented programming in C" to guess what C++ does under the hood. For the "objects" that had fixed methods (not real sure of the terminology here, as I don't program in C++) the overhead is just one additional parameter (the object itself, or "this"). If the compiler can figure out the method to call at compile time, there's very little overhead. > >You really think these same programmers would somehow write better > >code if only they would stop using OO? > > Yes, absolutely. Most OO languages give bad programmers more code- > inflating features to misunderstand and abuse. If they don't know > how to write good code in C, which is a tiny, very fast, very low- > overhead, very simple language with very few features, how can they > be expected to write good code in C++, C# or Java, which are anything > but? I counter that argument with PHP pre 5x. Not OO at all, and the code quality, is ... um ... let's just say that osCommerce (a shopping cart written in PHP) has been stuck at version 2.2 for several years because it's too hideous to maintain ... -spc (Might even suggest Perl, but then the counter to that is Forth ... ) From oltmansg at bellsouth.net Tue Feb 9 16:55:12 2010 From: oltmansg at bellsouth.net (geoffrey oltmans) Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2010 14:55:12 -0800 (PST) Subject: Algol vs Fortran was RE: VHDL vs Verilog In-Reply-To: References: <4b6fd060.26695.66eba@cclist.sydex.com> <6F365783BCA.000005DDn0body.h0me@inbox.com> <0A82C779-29AA-41C6-BAF2-C1571B808D0C@neurotica.com> <4B712670.3050201@mail.msu.edu> <16E38B1D-0E55-4287-9DEE-CFE9AD76D686@neurotica.com> <4B71AD23.8040304@mail.msu.edu> <4B71B532.1070007@mail.msu.edu> <624077.60218.qm@web83909.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <775223.59947.qm@web83907.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> I would imagine you are right. Back in an era where computing power was at a premium, any wasted cycles were costly. Not so these days. I would argue that in several respects (i.e. GUI design) OOP makes a lot of sense and writing a GUI environment in a non-OOP language, while certainly possible, is probably a lot harder to design and make extensible. Again, not impossible, but could be painful. That said I see a lot of C++ code at my work that adds unnecessary complexity. ________________________________ From: Ethan Dicks To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Sent: Tue, February 9, 2010 3:17:08 PM Subject: Re: Algol vs Fortran was RE: VHDL vs Verilog On Tue, Feb 9, 2010 at 4:14 PM, geoffrey oltmans wrote: > I wonder how much programmers in the 50's and 60's argued about how many CPU cycles this programming construct took vs. that. ;) Probably a lot. In the earliest days, assemblers were considered a poor use of time on the machine. Of course, these are the people who argued as to how many digits you really need to represent a year on the modern calendar. Hint: 2 digits only takes you so far... ;-) -ethan From oltmansg at bellsouth.net Tue Feb 9 17:00:20 2010 From: oltmansg at bellsouth.net (geoffrey oltmans) Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2010 15:00:20 -0800 (PST) Subject: Algol vs Fortran was RE: VHDL vs Verilog In-Reply-To: <294DDFB2-7746-4C58-BC7C-FBA00EEB2243@neurotica.com> References: <4b6fd060.26695.66eba@cclist.sydex.com> <6ed9562426e.0000058dn0body.h0me@inbox.com> <4b700d62.20109.f4bca6@cclist.sydex.com> <6F365783BCA.000005DDn0body.h0me@inbox.com> <0A82C779-29AA-41C6-BAF2-C1571B808D0C@neurotica.com> <4B712670.3050201@mail.msu.edu> <16E38B1D-0E55-4287-9DEE-CFE9AD76D686@neurotica.com> <4B71AD23.8040304@mail.msu.edu> <4B71B532.1070007@mail.msu.edu> <011719EC-CAE5-4482-A704-F2359BB17E52@mail.msu.edu> <6D2F1464-34E0-4601-AE47-7AD28DE28542@neurotica.com> <8FEBF117-CA86-46DB-A611-DBFCBE392015@mail.msu.edu> <294DDFB2-7746-4C58-BC7C-FBA00EEB2243@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <510221.54429.qm@web83907.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> The same things? Doubtful. How fancy a GUI does your SPARCstation run compared to your more modern PPC? ________________________________ From: Dave McGuire To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Sent: Tue, February 9, 2010 4:46:33 PM Subject: Re: Algol vs Fortran was RE: VHDL vs Verilog Feelings? No, experience. Big difference. Experience with and knowledge of the past. There is NO RATIONAL REASON why a GUI-based OS should need more than a billion bytes of memory and a billion-plus clock cycles per second just to boot. You and I (and many others on this list) have plenty of examples of machines that do the same thing with a tiny fraction of those resources. Windows, OS X, and Linux (but only with Gnome or KDE) are fat, bloated, slow, lumbering pigs, and it's due to sloppy programming and misapplication of tools. That is my assertion. My proof is that I use my dual 1.8GHz PPC with 4GB of RAM for the EXACT SAME STUFF every day that I used my 40MHz SPARC with 32MB of RAM to do every day, and I bump up against the performance limitations of both to essentially the same degree. From lance.w.lyon at gmail.com Tue Feb 9 17:03:23 2010 From: lance.w.lyon at gmail.com (Lance Lyon) Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2010 10:03:23 +1100 Subject: 80486 (was Algol vs Fortran was RE: VHDL vs Verilog) In-Reply-To: <20100209215747.GA8039@brevard.conman.org> References: <4b700d62.20109.f4bca6@cclist.sydex.com> <6F365783BCA.000005DDn0body.h0me@inbox.com> <0A82C779-29AA-41C6-BAF2-C1571B808D0C@neurotica.com> <4B712670.3050201@mail.msu.edu> <16E38B1D-0E55-4287-9DEE-CFE9AD76D686@neurotica.com> <4B71AD23.8040304@mail.msu.edu> <4B71B532.1070007@mail.msu.edu> <20100209215747.GA8039@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: <4b71e9be.1602be0a.56fc.1249@mx.google.com> -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Sean Conner Sent: Wednesday, 10 February 2010 8:58 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Algol vs Fortran was RE: VHDL vs Verilog > The other side of the coin is that the 2.6Gh machine sitting below my desk > can do things that my old system (a 150MHz 486 with 32M RAM) would die > trying to do Don't think 486's ever reached this speed. I know AMD released a 133MHz version (the AM 5x86) and that 150MHz & 160MHz were planned but not (I believe) ever released. Cheers, Lance Lyon http://www.commodore128.org From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Feb 9 17:06:30 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2010 18:06:30 -0500 Subject: Algol vs Fortran was RE: VHDL vs Verilog In-Reply-To: <510221.54429.qm@web83907.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <4b6fd060.26695.66eba@cclist.sydex.com> <6ed9562426e.0000058dn0body.h0me@inbox.com> <4b700d62.20109.f4bca6@cclist.sydex.com> <6F365783BCA.000005DDn0body.h0me@inbox.com> <0A82C779-29AA-41C6-BAF2-C1571B808D0C@neurotica.com> <4B712670.3050201@mail.msu.edu> <16E38B1D-0E55-4287-9DEE-CFE9AD76D686@neurotica.com> <4B71AD23.8040304@mail.msu.edu> <4B71B532.1070007@mail.msu.edu> <011719EC-CAE5-4482-A704-F2359BB17E52@mail.msu.edu> <6D2F1464-34E0-4601-AE47-7AD28DE28542@neurotica.com> <8FEBF117-CA86-46DB-A611-DBFCBE392015@mail.msu.edu> <294DDFB2-7746-4C58-BC7C-FBA00EEB2243@neurotica.com> <510221.54429.qm@web83907.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <361AE27C-6F99-4CDD-AEF2-C39E9559059D@neurotica.com> Yes, the same things. Here, quoted from the message that you trimmed: "Playing music, playing video files, telnetting, sshing, editing, compiling, browsing the web, etc etc etc." I'll add "viewing PDF files and generating documentation" since they came to mind since I sent that. About the only thing I do on my system now that I didn't back then was run CPU emulators and edit pictures. Yes, the GUI is prettier, and it supports drag-and-drop (which I almost never use), but other than that, there's not much difference. The OS *supports* the apps. I spend most of my time in the apps. -Dave On Feb 9, 2010, at 6:00 PM, geoffrey oltmans wrote: > The same things? Doubtful. How fancy a GUI does your SPARCstation > run compared to your more modern PPC? > > > > > ________________________________ > From: Dave McGuire > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Sent: Tue, February 9, 2010 4:46:33 PM > Subject: Re: Algol vs Fortran was RE: VHDL vs Verilog > > > Feelings? No, experience. Big difference. Experience with and > knowledge of the past. There is NO RATIONAL REASON why a GUI-based > OS should need more than a billion bytes of memory and a billion- > plus clock cycles per second just to boot. You and I (and many > others on this list) have plenty of examples of machines that do > the same thing with a tiny fraction of those resources. > > Windows, OS X, and Linux (but only with Gnome or KDE) are fat, > bloated, slow, lumbering pigs, and it's due to sloppy programming > and misapplication of tools. That is my assertion. My proof is > that I use my dual 1.8GHz PPC with 4GB of RAM for the EXACT SAME > STUFF every day that I used my 40MHz SPARC with 32MB of RAM to do > every day, and I bump up against the performance limitations of > both to essentially the same degree. -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cclist at sydex.com Tue Feb 9 17:07:04 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 09 Feb 2010 15:07:04 -0800 Subject: Algol vs Fortran was RE: VHDL vs Verilog In-Reply-To: <775223.59947.qm@web83907.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <4b6fd060.26695.66eba@cclist.sydex.com>, , <775223.59947.qm@web83907.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4B717A18.15502.1592433@cclist.sydex.com> On 9 Feb 2010 at 14:55, geoffrey oltmans wrote: > Of course, these are the people who argued as to how many digits you > really need to represent a year on the modern calendar. Hint: 2 > digits only takes you so far... ;-) 100 years, which is longer than we've had electronic digital computers--or longer, depending on the mechanism used to store the field (i.e.,. BCD vs. binary vs. ASCII). An awful lot of legacy code was changed by Y2K programmers to express the year as a 4 digit field, instead of simply employing "wraparound" logic. But heck, at $45/hour for a COBOL programmer back then, why not make the job more complicated? --Chuck From oltmansg at bellsouth.net Tue Feb 9 17:10:26 2010 From: oltmansg at bellsouth.net (geoffrey oltmans) Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2010 15:10:26 -0800 (PST) Subject: Algol vs Fortran was RE: VHDL vs Verilog In-Reply-To: <361AE27C-6F99-4CDD-AEF2-C39E9559059D@neurotica.com> References: <4b6fd060.26695.66eba@cclist.sydex.com> <6ed9562426e.0000058dn0body.h0me@inbox.com> <4b700d62.20109.f4bca6@cclist.sydex.com> <6F365783BCA.000005DDn0body.h0me@inbox.com> <0A82C779-29AA-41C6-BAF2-C1571B808D0C@neurotica.com> <4B712670.3050201@mail.msu.edu> <16E38B1D-0E55-4287-9DEE-CFE9AD76D686@neurotica.com> <4B71AD23.8040304@mail.msu.edu> <4B71B532.1070007@mail.msu.edu> <011719EC-CAE5-4482-A704-F2359BB17E52@mail.msu.edu> <6D2F1464-34E0-4601-AE47-7AD28DE28542@neurotica.com> <8FEBF117-CA86-46DB-A611-DBFCBE392015@mail.msu.edu> <294DDFB2-7746-4C58-BC7C-FBA00EEB2243@neurotica.com> <510221.54429.qm@web83907.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <361AE27C-6F99-4CDD-AEF2-C39E9559059D@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <739792.43520.qm@web83906.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> You don't have any problems viewing HD movies on your 40MHz SPARC? How about encoding video, how long does that take? ________________________________ From: Dave McGuire To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Sent: Tue, February 9, 2010 5:06:30 PM Subject: Re: Algol vs Fortran was RE: VHDL vs Verilog Yes, the same things. Here, quoted from the message that you trimmed: "Playing music, playing video files, telnetting, sshing, editing, compiling, browsing the web, etc etc etc." I'll add "viewing PDF files and generating documentation" since they came to mind since I sent that. About the only thing I do on my system now that I didn't back then was run CPU emulators and edit pictures. Yes, the GUI is prettier, and it supports drag-and-drop (which I almost never use), but other than that, there's not much difference. The OS *supports* the apps. I spend most of my time in the apps. -Dave On Feb 9, 2010, at 6:00 PM, geoffrey oltmans wrote: > The same things? Doubtful. How fancy a GUI does your SPARCstation run compared to your more modern PPC? > > > > > ________________________________ > From: Dave McGuire > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Sent: Tue, February 9, 2010 4:46:33 PM > Subject: Re: Algol vs Fortran was RE: VHDL vs Verilog > > > Feelings? No, experience. Big difference. Experience with and knowledge of the past. There is NO RATIONAL REASON why a GUI-based OS should need more than a billion bytes of memory and a billion-plus clock cycles per second just to boot. You and I (and many others on this list) have plenty of examples of machines that do the same thing with a tiny fraction of those resources. > > Windows, OS X, and Linux (but only with Gnome or KDE) are fat, bloated, slow, lumbering pigs, and it's due to sloppy programming and misapplication of tools. That is my assertion. My proof is that I use my dual 1.8GHz PPC with 4GB of RAM for the EXACT SAME STUFF every day that I used my 40MHz SPARC with 32MB of RAM to do every day, and I bump up against the performance limitations of both to essentially the same degree. --Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Feb 9 17:12:37 2010 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Tue, 09 Feb 2010 16:12:37 -0700 Subject: Algol vs Fortran was RE: VHDL vs Verilog In-Reply-To: <4B717A18.15502.1592433@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4b6fd060.26695.66eba@cclist.sydex.com>, , <775223.59947.qm@web83907.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <4B717A18.15502.1592433@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4B71EBE5.40703@jetnet.ab.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 9 Feb 2010 at 14:55, geoffrey oltmans wrote: > >> Of course, these are the people who argued as to how many digits you >> really need to represent a year on the modern calendar. Hint: 2 >> digits only takes you so far... ;-) > > 100 years, which is longer than we've had electronic digital > computers--or longer, depending on the mechanism used to store the > field (i.e.,. BCD vs. binary vs. ASCII). An awful lot of legacy code > was changed by Y2K programmers to express the year as a 4 digit > field, instead of simply employing "wraparound" logic. But heck, at > $45/hour for a COBOL programmer back then, why not make the job more > complicated? I think it was the $45 / word of memory that did it. How many people coding in the late 1950's expected the same aps would sill run 40+ years later? > --Chuck From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Tue Feb 9 17:12:59 2010 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2010 15:12:59 -0800 Subject: Algol vs Fortran was RE: VHDL vs Verilog In-Reply-To: <294DDFB2-7746-4C58-BC7C-FBA00EEB2243@neurotica.com> References: <4b6fd060.26695.66eba@cclist.sydex.com> <6ed9562426e.0000058dn0body.h0me@inbox.com> <4b700d62.20109.f4bca6@cclist.sydex.com> <6F365783BCA.000005DDn0body.h0me@inbox.com> <0A82C779-29AA-41C6-BAF2-C1571B808D0C@neurotica.com> <4B712670.3050201@mail.msu.edu> <16E38B1D-0E55-4287-9DEE-CFE9AD76D686@neurotica.com> <4B71AD23.8040304@mail.msu.edu> <4B71B532.1070007@mail.msu.edu> <011719EC-CAE5-4482-A704-F2359BB17E52@mail.msu.edu> <6D2F1464-34E0-4601-AE47-7AD28DE28542@neurotica.com> <8FEBF117-CA86-46DB-A611-DBFCBE392015@mail.msu.edu> <294DDFB2-7746-4C58-BC7C-FBA00EEB2243@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Feb 9, 2010, at 2:46 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On Feb 9, 2010, at 5:22 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: >>> You're speaking from the standpoint of running one program, once, >>> alone on one computer. That's not how (most) computers are used. >>> How many processes are running, right now, on your Windows box? >>> 146 right now on my Mac, *nearly seven hundred* on the central >>> computer here (a big Sun). Those "this code is only 20% slower" >>> inefficiencies that allowed us to get back on the golf course >>> fifteen minutes sooner do add up. >> >> So you're clicking every button in every process running on your >> machine constantly? > > Of course not. But don't assume I'm the only person using this > machine. It's sitting there receiving and doing spam filtering on > about 90K emails per day, serving web pages for a small stack of web > sites, being a database server with about 20GB of data behind > it...The machine isn't sitting there idle waiting for me to click on > something. That machine doesn't even have a graphical console. > > There's more to what computers do than run whatever app one > particular user is clicking at at any given time. > >> My point is that for *many* operations (like user-interactions >> which typically are gated on the response time of humans) virtual >> call overhead is acceptable. > > If that's the only thing, or one of a very small number of things, > running on the (very very fast) machine, sure. > >>>> Depends greatly on the language. Don't confuse one >>>> implementation with ALL OO programming languages. In C++ an >>>> integer maps to a register. Same in C#. Same in objc. Java >>>> does this differently. >>> >>> I'm going to go dig into a C++ implementation and look at the in- >>> memory composition of an integer object. I sure hope you're right. >> >> C++ definitely has no concept of an integer object. (it offers no >> built/in object types, not even a base Object class.) > > Again, it was an example, taken from Java, because I know Java much > better than I know C++. > >>> C# has a form of templates, if memory serves. I believe they're >>> called "generics". Name one non-OO language that has such a >>> construct. I don't know of any. >> >> C# generics and C++ template metaprogramming are nowhere near the >> same thing. They both let you easily define reusable container >> objects (and for that use, they are efficient.). C++ templates >> actually provide a Turing-complete language (an ugly one) that runs >> at compile time. You can do clever things with it, you can also do >> horrible things with it. >> >> C++ metaprogramming is very much a paradigm unto itself. > > Everything I've read about generics describes them as a form of > templates. Everything. You're asserting that they're completely > different? If so, I will stand corrected, and chalk it up to a lot > of bad info on peoples' web sites. I myself don't have a Windows > computer so I don't use C#, so I can't speak from direct experience > there. You can indeed use C#, via the Mono project. Generics are a very basic form of C++ templates that are good for creating generic containers, and that's about it. C++ templates are considerably more involved, and metaprogramming tricks are used to do all manner of insane things at compile time. At a very basic level, the two are the same. It's like saying a Yugo and a Maserati are equivalent because they are both cars. (yes, you can use analogies here :) > >>> It may be, at least in part, speculation...but with lots of >>> experience to back it up. Quite simply, almost everything I've >>> seen written in C++ and Java (even with native compilation) is >>> slow, and most everything I've seen written in C, assembler, and >>> Forth is fast. >> >> I could argue that I've also seen the exact opposite, but I'm not >> sure what that would prove. > > You have? Seriously? Yep. Again, it's a case of bad programmers doing stupid things. > >>> One such example in which the functionality is similar is groff >>> vs. nroff. Big speed difference between the two on similar >>> hardware performing similar functions. >>> >>> Speculating that OS foo is far slower than it "should be" is >>> something that I think I can get a pretty good feel for, having >>> used dozens of operating systems on dozens of types of computers >>> over dozens of years. You're suggesting that my argument is >>> completely illegitimate because I'm not willing to spend the next >>> two weeks cooking up some sort of a benchmark suite to prove to >>> you, by the numbers, something that I've never heard anyone else >>> disagree with, ever? >> >> I'm suggesting that you are exaggerating the performance impact and >> that you keep basing these projections on feelings. > > Feelings? No, experience. Big difference. Experience with and > knowledge of the past. There is NO RATIONAL REASON why a GUI-based > OS should need more than a billion bytes of memory and a billion- > plus clock cycles per second just to boot. You and I (and many > others on this list) have plenty of examples of machines that do the > same thing with a tiny fraction of those resources. > > Windows, OS X, and Linux (but only with Gnome or KDE) are fat, > bloated, slow, lumbering pigs, and it's due to sloppy programming > and misapplication of tools. That is my assertion. My proof is > that I use my dual 1.8GHz PPC with 4GB of RAM for the EXACT SAME > STUFF every day that I used my 40MHz SPARC with 32MB of RAM to do > every day, and I bump up against the performance limitations of both > to essentially the same degree. > > Playing music, playing video files, telnetting, sshing, editing, > compiling, browsing the web, etc etc etc. The apps are a bit > prettier now, certainly moreso than with fvwm, but I'd happily live > without that. See, here's where I see a disconnect; you are doing the same *class* of thing, but you're not really doing the same thing. Programs have gotten more complex because people want more from their software. Regardless of whether Firefox 3.5 was written in assembly or C++ you'd never hope to run it on your IPX. I just think you are blaming the wrong thing (or just blaming one thing) for the performance degradations you are perceiving. OO overhead adds some not imperceivable overhead; so do each of extensibility, abstraction, support for "modern standards" (CSS, JavaScript, XML) ui theming, support for "advanced" desktop metaphors, etc... Code reuse and abstractions also bring overhead; these exist even in C, but the overhead is worth it in terms of maintenance and usability (from a programming and a user perspective.) And honestly, my current desktop machine runs circles around the machine I was using in college, doing more or less the same things you do; I rarely hit performance issues. The same was true of my previous desktop, which I got six years of use from. > >>>>> In an ideal world, one in newhich all programmers were >>>>> competent, OO languages wouldn't be such a problem. So I guess >>>>> what I really mean is, "Bad programmers are even more >>>>> detrimental to computing when armed with OO languages". >>>> >>>> You really think these same programmers would somehow write >>>> better code if only they would stop using OO? >>> >>> Yes, absolutely. Most OO languages give bad programmers more code- >>> inflating features to misunderstand and abuse. If they don't know >>> how to write good code in C, which is a tiny, very fast, very low- >>> overhead, very simple language with very few features, how can >>> they be expected to write good code in C++, C# or Java, which are >>> anything but? >> >> I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree here. > > I'm fine with that. > >>> Handing an idiot a loaded rifle is dangerous. Handing an idiot a >>> loaded rifle with a loaded grenade launcher is MORE dangerous >> >> Yes. Programming languages are just like firearms. > > Wow. So I'm not allowed to use analogies here? Sorry, typing this from my phone and forgot to finish that sentence :). And I said I wasn't going to continue dragging this offtopic... Josh > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire > Port Charlotte, FL > > From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Feb 9 17:14:06 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2010 18:14:06 -0500 Subject: Algol vs Fortran was RE: VHDL vs Verilog In-Reply-To: <739792.43520.qm@web83906.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <4b6fd060.26695.66eba@cclist.sydex.com> <6ed9562426e.0000058dn0body.h0me@inbox.com> <4b700d62.20109.f4bca6@cclist.sydex.com> <6F365783BCA.000005DDn0body.h0me@inbox.com> <0A82C779-29AA-41C6-BAF2-C1571B808D0C@neurotica.com> <4B712670.3050201@mail.msu.edu> <16E38B1D-0E55-4287-9DEE-CFE9AD76D686@neurotica.com> <4B71AD23.8040304@mail.msu.edu> <4B71B532.1070007@mail.msu.edu> <011719EC-CAE5-4482-A704-F2359BB17E52@mail.msu.edu> <6D2F1464-34E0-4601-AE47-7AD28DE28542@neurotica.com> <8FEBF117-CA86-46DB-A611-DBFCBE392015@mail.msu.edu> <294DDFB2-7746-4C58-BC7C-FBA00EEB2243@neurotica.com> <510221.54429.qm@web83907.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <361AE27C-6F99-4CDD-AEF2-C39E9559059D@neurotica.com> <739792.43520.qm@web83906.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5F05226B-11A9-4FCA-8570-58A52922B74A@neurotica.com> Of course there are things that my old SPARCstation wouldn't be able to do, and those are two good examples. They also happen to be things that weren't on my list, and things that I've NEVER done, on any computer, and don't see any desire to. I view HD movies on my A/ V system in my living room, and I've never had a need to encode my own video. Please read my list. -Dave On Feb 9, 2010, at 6:10 PM, geoffrey oltmans wrote: > You don't have any problems viewing HD movies on your 40MHz SPARC? > How about encoding video, how long does that take? > > > > > ________________________________ > From: Dave McGuire > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Sent: Tue, February 9, 2010 5:06:30 PM > Subject: Re: Algol vs Fortran was RE: VHDL vs Verilog > > > Yes, the same things. Here, quoted from the message that you > trimmed: > > "Playing music, playing video files, telnetting, sshing, editing, > compiling, browsing the web, etc etc etc." > > I'll add "viewing PDF files and generating documentation" since > they came to mind since I sent that. About the only thing I do on > my system now that I didn't back then was run CPU emulators and > edit pictures. > > Yes, the GUI is prettier, and it supports drag-and-drop (which I > almost never use), but other than that, there's not much > difference. The OS *supports* the apps. I spend most of my time > in the apps. > > -Dave > > On Feb 9, 2010, at 6:00 PM, geoffrey oltmans wrote: >> The same things? Doubtful. How fancy a GUI does your SPARCstation >> run compared to your more modern PPC? >> >> >> >> >> ________________________________ >> From: Dave McGuire >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >> >> Sent: Tue, February 9, 2010 4:46:33 PM >> Subject: Re: Algol vs Fortran was RE: VHDL vs Verilog >> >> >> Feelings? No, experience. Big difference. Experience with and >> knowledge of the past. There is NO RATIONAL REASON why a GUI- >> based OS should need more than a billion bytes of memory and a >> billion-plus clock cycles per second just to boot. You and I (and >> many others on this list) have plenty of examples of machines that >> do the same thing with a tiny fraction of those resources. >> >> Windows, OS X, and Linux (but only with Gnome or KDE) are fat, >> bloated, slow, lumbering pigs, and it's due to sloppy programming >> and misapplication of tools. That is my assertion. My proof is >> that I use my dual 1.8GHz PPC with 4GB of RAM for the EXACT SAME >> STUFF every day that I used my 40MHz SPARC with 32MB of RAM to do >> every day, and I bump up against the performance limitations of >> both to essentially the same degree. > > > --Dave McGuire > Port Charlotte, FL -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Feb 9 17:14:48 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2010 18:14:48 -0500 Subject: Algol vs Fortran was RE: VHDL vs Verilog In-Reply-To: <4B71EBE5.40703@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4b6fd060.26695.66eba@cclist.sydex.com>, , <775223.59947.qm@web83907.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <4B717A18.15502.1592433@cclist.sydex.com> <4B71EBE5.40703@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <328D96CA-D823-45D1-A9B7-861E383A46A2@neurotica.com> On Feb 9, 2010, at 6:12 PM, Ben wrote: >>> Of course, these are the people who argued as to how many digits you >>> really need to represent a year on the modern calendar. Hint: 2 >>> digits only takes you so far... ;-) >> >> 100 years, which is longer than we've had electronic digital >> computers--or longer, depending on the mechanism used to store the >> field (i.e.,. BCD vs. binary vs. ASCII). An awful lot of legacy code >> was changed by Y2K programmers to express the year as a 4 digit >> field, instead of simply employing "wraparound" logic. But heck, at >> $45/hour for a COBOL programmer back then, why not make the job more >> complicated? > > I think it was the $45 / word of memory that did it. > How many people coding in the late 1950's expected the same aps > would sill run 40+ years later? Shortsightedness is a hallmark of our industry. It always has been, and probably always will be. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From oltmansg at bellsouth.net Tue Feb 9 17:14:47 2010 From: oltmansg at bellsouth.net (geoffrey oltmans) Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2010 15:14:47 -0800 (PST) Subject: Algol vs Fortran was RE: VHDL vs Verilog In-Reply-To: <4B71EBE5.40703@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4b6fd060.26695.66eba@cclist.sydex.com>, , <775223.59947.qm@web83907.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <4B717A18.15502.1592433@cclist.sydex.com> <4B71EBE5.40703@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <734873.7952.qm@web83911.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> let alone having systems that are compatible? :) ________________________________ From: Ben To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Sent: Tue, February 9, 2010 5:12:37 PM Subject: Re: Algol vs Fortran was RE: VHDL vs Verilog Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 9 Feb 2010 at 14:55, geoffrey oltmans wrote: > >> Of course, these are the people who argued as to how many digits you >> really need to represent a year on the modern calendar. Hint: 2 >> digits only takes you so far... ;-) > > 100 years, which is longer than we've had electronic digital > computers--or longer, depending on the mechanism used to store the > field (i.e.,. BCD vs. binary vs. ASCII). An awful lot of legacy code > was changed by Y2K programmers to express the year as a 4 digit > field, instead of simply employing "wraparound" logic. But heck, at > $45/hour for a COBOL programmer back then, why not make the job more > complicated? I think it was the $45 / word of memory that did it. How many people coding in the late 1950's expected the same aps would sill run 40+ years later? > --Chuck From spc at conman.org Tue Feb 9 17:26:30 2010 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2010 18:26:30 -0500 Subject: 80486 (was Algol vs Fortran was RE: VHDL vs Verilog) In-Reply-To: <4b71e9be.1602be0a.56fc.1249@mx.google.com> References: <6F365783BCA.000005DDn0body.h0me@inbox.com> <0A82C779-29AA-41C6-BAF2-C1571B808D0C@neurotica.com> <4B712670.3050201@mail.msu.edu> <16E38B1D-0E55-4287-9DEE-CFE9AD76D686@neurotica.com> <4B71AD23.8040304@mail.msu.edu> <4B71B532.1070007@mail.msu.edu> <20100209215747.GA8039@brevard.conman.org> <4b71e9be.1602be0a.56fc.1249@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <20100209232630.GA5944@brevard.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Lance Lyon once stated: > > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] > On Behalf Of Sean Conner > Sent: Wednesday, 10 February 2010 8:58 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Algol vs Fortran was RE: VHDL vs Verilog > > > > The other side of the coin is that the 2.6Gh machine sitting below my > desk > > can do things that my old system (a 150MHz 486 with 32M RAM) would die > > trying to do > > Don't think 486's ever reached this speed. I know AMD released a 133MHz > version (the AM 5x86) and that 150MHz & 160MHz were planned but not (I > believe) ever released. You're right---I had an AMD 5x86 chip in that box. -spc (and I knew it was around 150MHz ... ) From arcbe2001 at yahoo.com Tue Feb 9 17:44:04 2010 From: arcbe2001 at yahoo.com (Russ Bartlett) Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2010 15:44:04 -0800 (PST) Subject: Algol vs Fortran was RE: VHDL vs Verilog In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <493390.80299.qm@web110407.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> The comments are wide of the mark.? I started programming in the 1960's.? On an IBM 360/25 for example,? we had 48 KB memory in which to partition F1, F2, and BG.? Larger systems we would run Power II or HASP, GRASP etc.? the spooler would use up memory.? Now considering that back then one byte of memory cost a buck it doesn't take a rocket scientist to? figure out that every little bit counted.? We had 11MB disks given that time cost money (mount/unmount disks), multi volume files etc,? and that hardware was extremely expensive it made a lot of sense to consider every aspect of the equation: 1) Run time - I rewrote a number of COBOL programs in 360 BAL (Assembler) that were resource hogs and took a lot of processor time.? I could reduce the run time of some by a factor of 5 or more.? COBOL compilers were inefficient and for example multiply, divide and moves (different data formats) would generate a lot of? machine code instructions.? A good programmer would know what was good and bad practice.? Example group moves to the same format, multiple adds instead of multiply.? Assemblers were NOT considered poor use of machine time? - totally the reverse.? Assembler programmers had to know what they were doing though and for that I was paid more.? It took far less time to assemble a program in BAL that compile a COBOL program.? The down side was it took a lot longer to write. 2)? Programs had to be written so that the most frequent parts were in memory due to the need for the system to page.? BAL I wrote in Csec's (4kb) so that for example one would perform a credit check, another perform page headings etc.? Maybe it sounds familiar - reusable code/API's!? So maybe we weren't so stupid after all. 3) Anyone appreciating earlier data processing challenges would also be aware that storage came at a price.? Also there was a limitation as to what would fit onto a 80 column card (punched card).? Disc storage wasn't cheap and all this needed to be weighed against the belief that a system written in 1965 would not be used by Y2K.? Maybe someone would like to explain to my why my Quick Books purchase in 1996 (C#) wasn't Y2K compliant.? I found a lot of the computer article written prior to the Y2K switch laughable being written by people by people that really hadn't a clue as to why the systems had been written that way in? the first place. --- On Tue, 2/9/10, Ethan Dicks wrote: From: Ethan Dicks Subject: Re: Algol vs Fortran was RE: VHDL vs Verilog To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Date: Tuesday, February 9, 2010, 4:17 PM On Tue, Feb 9, 2010 at 4:14 PM, geoffrey oltmans wrote: > I wonder how much programmers in the 50's and 60's argued about how many CPU cycles this programming construct took vs. that. ;) Probably a lot.? In the earliest days, assemblers were considered a poor use of time on the machine. Of course, these are the people who argued as to how many digits you really need to represent a year on the modern calendar.? Hint: 2 digits only takes you so far... ;-) -ethan From RichA at vulcan.com Tue Feb 9 17:50:09 2010 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2010 15:50:09 -0800 Subject: Algol vs Fortran was RE: VHDL vs Verilog In-Reply-To: <4B717A18.15502.1592433@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4b6fd060.26695.66eba@cclist.sydex.com>, , <775223.59947.qm@web83907.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <4B717A18.15502.1592433@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: From: Chuck Guzis Sent: Tuesday, February 09, 2010 3:07 PM > On 9 Feb 2010 at 14:55, geoffrey oltmans wrote: >> Of course, these are the people who argued as to how many digits you >> really need to represent a year on the modern calendar. Hint: 2 >> digits only takes you so far... ;-) > 100 years, which is longer than we've had electronic digital > computers--or longer, depending on the mechanism used to store the > field (i.e.,. BCD vs. binary vs. ASCII). An awful lot of legacy code > was changed by Y2K programmers to express the year as a 4 digit > field, instead of simply employing "wraparound" logic. But heck, at > $45/hour for a COBOL programmer back then, why not make the job more > complicated? In those industries in which there is a lot of legacy COBOL code (which is to say, those industries most affected by the so-called "Y2K bug"), wraparound on dates is not a particularly good idea. I note the little old lady in the UK who got a letter from her insurance company expressing congratulations over the arrival of her new baby girl: A wrap-around year calculation had turned the 101 year old woman into an infant. Back in the late 1970s and early 1980s, when I earned my living doing COBOL and PL/I programming for a major university's financial systems, I frequently argued with my colleagues about the continued idiocy (no, I was not politic about it) of using 2-digit years with the turn of the century only 20 years away. When challenged on it, I could point to my office mate, one of whose on-going tasks was documenting the major part of the university's general accounting application which was written in uncommented 1401 Autocoder, and which ran under emulation on the Amdahl 470 V8, that dated back to 1959. The assistant manager of the FS group was one of the two people (the other one still in the Comptroller's office) who wrote the code, 20 years earlier. *He* backed me up. Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.PDPplanet.org/ http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From cclist at sydex.com Tue Feb 9 17:55:21 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 09 Feb 2010 15:55:21 -0800 Subject: Algol vs Fortran was RE: VHDL vs Verilog In-Reply-To: <493390.80299.qm@web110407.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: , <493390.80299.qm@web110407.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4B718569.31131.18558AB@cclist.sydex.com> On 9 Feb 2010 at 15:44, Russ Bartlett wrote: > It took far less time to assemble a program in BAL that compile a > COBOL program.? The down side was it took a lot longer to write. I imagine that you didn't use many I/O library macros then. On a Mod 40 running DOS using the F-level assembler, it took forever for the assembler to crunch through those things. They were pretty hairy. --Chuck From RichA at vulcan.com Tue Feb 9 18:03:19 2010 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2010 16:03:19 -0800 Subject: The value of assembler language programmers [was RE: Algol vs Fortran was RE: VHDL vs Verilog] In-Reply-To: <493390.80299.qm@web110407.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <493390.80299.qm@web110407.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: From: Russ Bartlett Sent: Tuesday, February 09, 2010 3:44 PM > --- On Tue, 2/9/10, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> On Tue, Feb 9, 2010 at 4:14 PM, geoffrey oltmans >> wrote: >>> I wonder how much programmers in the 50's and 60's argued about how many >>> CPU cycles this programming construct took vs. that. ;) >> Probably a lot. In the earliest days, assemblers were considered a poor use >> of time on the machine. > The comments are wide of the mark. I started programming in the 1960's. > On an IBM 360/25 for example, we had 48 KB memory in which to partition F1, > F2, and BG. Larger systems we would run Power II or HASP, GRASP etc. the > spooler would use up memory. Now considering that back then one byte of > memory cost a buck it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that > every little bit counted. We had 11MB disks given that time cost money > (mount/unmount disks), multi volume files etc, and that hardware was > extremely expensive it made a lot of sense to consider every aspect of the > equation: [ snip ] > Assemblers were NOT considered poor use of machine time - totally the > reverse. Assembler programmers had to know what they were doing though and > for that I was paid more. It took far less time to assemble a program in > BAL that compile a COBOL program. The down side was it took a lot longer > to write. I'm pretty sure that Ethan was talking about the attitudes in the mid-1950s, when assembler languages were born. He is correct that at the time, the use of assembler languages was controversial, because so much precious computer time was wasted doing something that any good programmer ought to be able to do at his desk. *Every* generation of programmers has *always* looked down on their successors as using tools that waste too much computer time to do too little. Of course, *my* generation (started programming in 1969 on a 1401) is right. ;-) Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.PDPplanet.org/ http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From robert at irrelevant.com Tue Feb 9 18:46:03 2010 From: robert at irrelevant.com (Rob) Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2010 00:46:03 +0000 Subject: TV Licensing (Re: cctech Digest, Vol 78, Issue 3) In-Reply-To: References: <4B709EA0.3040001@aurigae.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <2f806cd71002091646o4ae5d146pa327c00c540dbed1@mail.gmail.com> On 9 February 2010 19:48, Tony Duell wrote: > > Mind you, they also didn't know what, if any, licesnse is required for a > TV sound-only receiver. That one I can answer - no licence required: "If you only use your digital box to produce sounds (i.e. you don't use it to display programmes), then you don't need a TV Licence." http://www.tvlicensing.co.uk/check-if-you-need-one/topics/technology-top8/ > Or for a teletext-only receiver (such as the > units used with the BBC micro). For such devices, does 'colour' mean it > uses a colour monitor, or that it decodes the attribute bytes, or what? It definitely used to be the monitor you used to display it. Given, w.r.t. digital boxes they say: "A black and white TV Licence does not cover the use of colour TV receiving equipment, such as a digital box. The only exception is if it's only used with a black and white TV set and the equipment can?t record TV." http://www.tvlicensing.co.uk/check-if-you-need-one/topics/understanding-your-tv-licence-top3/ I suggest that the situation is the same. > The did tell me that if I modified a TV receiver so that it no longer > received TV, then it diddn't need a license. If I took a TV set, > desoldered the tuner module, and used the rest of it as a monitor, then I > didn't need a license. Even if I kepty the tuner module in my spares box. > The fact I had parts that could be assembled into a TV set did not mean I > had a TV set. You don't even need to go that far - just don't use it: "You don't need a licence if you don't use any of these devices to watch or record television programmes as they're being shown on TV - for example, if you use your TV only to watch DVDs or play video games, or you only watch programmes on your computer after they have been shown on TV." [rather than as-live] http://www.tvlicensing.co.uk/check-if-you-need-one/topics/what-if-a-tv-licence-is-not-needed-top12/ > > Many years ago I assembled the Maplin NICAM TV tuner kits. I bought said > kits in one of their shops (back when Maplin shops stocked interesting > items), and they didn't take my name or address. I was told that although > a lincense was needed to use the assembled kit, there was no license > check in buying a box of parts. The parts were not a TV receiver, they > could be used for all sorts of other things. > > FWIW, all the above devies are used in a house that has a valid TV > license, so it didn;t really matter. Byt as=king annoying questions is a > hobby of mine... Hotels and the like are only covered for 15 devices - then you need to buy another licence for each five devices... so, in certain circumstances it can be advantageous to know what needs a licence and what doesn't. http://www.tvlicensing.co.uk/check-if-you-need-one/topics/tv-licence-types-and-costs-top2/ Rob From oltmansg at bellsouth.net Tue Feb 9 18:56:37 2010 From: oltmansg at bellsouth.net (Geoff Oltmans) Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2010 18:56:37 -0600 Subject: Algol vs Fortran was RE: VHDL vs Verilog In-Reply-To: <5F05226B-11A9-4FCA-8570-58A52922B74A@neurotica.com> References: <4b6fd060.26695.66eba@cclist.sydex.com> <6ed9562426e.0000058dn0body.h0me@inbox.com> <4b700d62.20109.f4bca6@cclist.sydex.com> <6F365783BCA.000005DDn0body.h0me@inbox.com> <0A82C779-29AA-41C6-BAF2-C1571B808D0C@neurotica.com> <4B712670.3050201@mail.msu.edu> <16E38B1D-0E55-4287-9DEE-CFE9AD76D686@neurotica.com> <4B71AD23.8040304@mail.msu.edu> <4B71B532.1070007@mail.msu.edu> <011719EC-CAE5-4482-A704-F2359BB17E52@mail.msu.edu> <6D2F1464-34E0-4601-AE47-7AD28DE28542@neurotica.com> <8FEBF117-CA86-46DB-A611-DBFCBE392015@mail.msu.edu> <294DDFB2-7746-4C58-BC7C-FBA00EEB2243@neurotica.com> <510221.54429.qm@web83907.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <361AE27C-6F99-4CDD-AEF2-C39E9559059D@neurotica.com> <739792.43520.qm@web83906.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <5F05226B-11A9-4FCA-8570-58A52922B74A@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <796519A7-CA0B-4F3F-9284-A57844661643@bellsouth.net> You seemed to be arguing that there was absolutely no benefit to the added complexity (bloat you said) of modern systems. Just because there's some application that you don't want doesn't mean that it's necessarily wasteful though. On Feb 9, 2010, at 5:14 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > > Of course there are things that my old SPARCstation wouldn't be able to do, and those are two good examples. They also happen to be things that weren't on my list, and things that I've NEVER done, on any computer, and don't see any desire to. I view HD movies on my A/V system in my living room, and I've never had a need to encode my own video. > > Please read my list. > > -Dave > > On Feb 9, 2010, at 6:10 PM, geoffrey oltmans wrote: >> You don't have any problems viewing HD movies on your 40MHz SPARC? How about encoding video, how long does that take? >> >> >> >> >> ________________________________ >> From: Dave McGuire >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >> Sent: Tue, February 9, 2010 5:06:30 PM >> Subject: Re: Algol vs Fortran was RE: VHDL vs Verilog >> >> >> Yes, the same things. Here, quoted from the message that you trimmed: >> >> "Playing music, playing video files, telnetting, sshing, editing, compiling, browsing the web, etc etc etc." >> >> I'll add "viewing PDF files and generating documentation" since they came to mind since I sent that. About the only thing I do on my system now that I didn't back then was run CPU emulators and edit pictures. >> >> Yes, the GUI is prettier, and it supports drag-and-drop (which I almost never use), but other than that, there's not much difference. The OS *supports* the apps. I spend most of my time in the apps. >> >> -Dave >> >> On Feb 9, 2010, at 6:00 PM, geoffrey oltmans wrote: >>> The same things? Doubtful. How fancy a GUI does your SPARCstation run compared to your more modern PPC? >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ________________________________ >>> From: Dave McGuire >>> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >>> Sent: Tue, February 9, 2010 4:46:33 PM >>> Subject: Re: Algol vs Fortran was RE: VHDL vs Verilog >>> >>> >>> Feelings? No, experience. Big difference. Experience with and knowledge of the past. There is NO RATIONAL REASON why a GUI-based OS should need more than a billion bytes of memory and a billion-plus clock cycles per second just to boot. You and I (and many others on this list) have plenty of examples of machines that do the same thing with a tiny fraction of those resources. >>> >>> Windows, OS X, and Linux (but only with Gnome or KDE) are fat, bloated, slow, lumbering pigs, and it's due to sloppy programming and misapplication of tools. That is my assertion. My proof is that I use my dual 1.8GHz PPC with 4GB of RAM for the EXACT SAME STUFF every day that I used my 40MHz SPARC with 32MB of RAM to do every day, and I bump up against the performance limitations of both to essentially the same degree. >> >> >> --Dave McGuire >> Port Charlotte, FL > > > -- > Dave McGuire > Port Charlotte, FL > From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Feb 9 18:59:25 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2010 19:59:25 -0500 Subject: The value of assembler language programmers [was RE: Algol vs Fortran was RE: VHDL vs Verilog] In-Reply-To: References: <493390.80299.qm@web110407.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Feb 9, 2010 at 7:03 PM, Rich Alderson wrote: >> --- On Tue, 2/9/10, Ethan Dicks wrote: >>> Probably a lot. ?In the earliest days, assemblers were considered a poor use >>> of time on the machine. > >> Assemblers were NOT considered poor use of machine time - totally the >> reverse. ?Assembler programmers had to know what they were doing though and >> for that I was paid more. ?It took far less time to assemble a program in >> BAL that compile a COBOL program. ?The down side was it took a lot longer >> to write. > > I'm pretty sure that Ethan was talking about the attitudes in the mid-1950s, > when assembler languages were born. Yep. Assemblers vs Machine Code, not Assemblers vs High Level Language Compilers. I did say "the earliest days". Sorry for not assigning a year to that. >?He is correct that at the time, the use > of assembler languages was controversial, because so much precious computer > time was wasted doing something that any good programmer ought to be able to > do at his desk. That is the attitude I was recalling. > *Every* generation of programmers has *always* looked down on their successors > as using tools that waste too much computer time to do too little. ?Of course, > *my* generation (started programming in 1969 on a 1401) is right. ;-) I certainly agree with you in principle, but I still wonder why even non-GUI application bloat has to be as bad as it is. We used to put 25-40 users on an 8MB VAX before it would start to swap. Now, still using a character based interface (which happens to be ssh vs direct serial connect, but that doesn't affect CLI application size), a program to tell me what processes are active on the system is 8MB by itself, vs a few dozen K bytes (I should go back and dig out one of those programs from the old days and port it to a modern machine to compare library bloat vs application bloat. Fortunately, I have my backups from 25 years ago). This is C code then and C code now, 80x25 then and 80x25 now. UNIX then and UNIX or Linux now. 32-bit processors then, 32-bit processors now. Not quite apples to oranges like most comparisons reaching back that far across the generations of equipment and mentalities. 25+ years later, how far have uber-fast machines with uber-large and uber-cheap storage really gotten us? Not as far as the raw numbers might lead one to think. I can buy a machine that about fits in my pocket that has 500 times the memory, 500 times the storage, and has a clock that's nearly 500 times faster for 1/500th the cost* - a 250,000X price-performance advantage. I think quite a bit of that 500x multiplier is getting pissed away before I type a single character. Yes it can do more; yes it feels faster. That much faster? Not in my opinion. -ethan * Numbers based on 1984 stats for a VAX-11/750 w/RA81 - approx $150K, integer speed approx the same as 8MHz 68000, 8MB RAM, 450 MB of disk, compared with a modern portable 3.6GHz machine w/4GB of RAM and 250GB of disk for under $400. Some settling may have occurred in shipping. Post No Bills, etc. -ethan From g at kurico.com Tue Feb 9 19:00:56 2010 From: g at kurico.com (George Currie) Date: Tue, 09 Feb 2010 19:00:56 -0600 Subject: Algol vs Fortran was RE: VHDL vs Verilog In-Reply-To: <323786.88210.qm@web83905.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <6F365783BCA.000005DDn0body.h0me@inbox.com> <0A82C779-29AA-41C6-BAF2-C1571B808D0C@neurotica.com> <4B712670.3050201@mail.msu.edu> <16E38B1D-0E55-4287-9DEE-CFE9AD76D686@neurotica.com> <4B71AD23.8040304@mail.msu.edu> <4B71B532.1070007@mail.msu.edu> <011719EC-CAE5-4482-A704-F2359BB17E52@mail.msu.edu> <6D2F1464-34E0-4601-AE47-7AD28DE28542@neurotica.com> <20100209221831.GB8039@brevard.conman.org> <323786.88210.qm@web83905.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4B720548.3090808@kurico.com> geoffrey oltmans wrote: > I'm not so sure that the overhead for C++ objects is quite a bad as everyone's making them out to be. Most of it boils down to simple pointer math and in other cases the compiler itself can abstract away some of the offset calculations. If variables live on the stack anyway, you'd have to do these offset calculations to get the data as well. > I think the bigger point is that there are _many_ places in modern apps where TONS of time is being wasted such that the overhead of vtables (or more importantly, the lost functionality by doing away with them) is relatively minor (depends in large part on the app of course). Heck, in a modern OS, every time I type a character, like in this email, there are about a bazillion things that happen (proper font/face chosen, rendered, line formatting checked, spell checking, text identification and highlighting (e.g. urls), etc, etc, etc) compared to a character mode editor on a CLI. All that is obviously going to drain huge cycles. Now you could certainly make that entire chain more efficient by minimizing the effects of the vtable, but it's the features itself that factor into the overall feeling that the modern OS is less responsive (or at the least no more responsive) than those of days gone by. I happen to work at a job where we _do_ count clock cycles and we'll spend much time shaving microseconds from our code. We even study and understand the effects of processor groupings in modern multiprocessor/core computers. That said, we still code in C++ but we understand when it's worthwhile to shave, when it's not worthwhile getting that detailed and when it's worthwhile to change the algorithm vs trying to shave a few nanoseconds by avoiding vtables or aligning your memory accesses. I grew up doing assembler and C. That said, the biggest issue with software today (imho) isn't really speed (the folks at places like Intel and nVidia will help us there) it's really stability and functionality. The goal of a lot of the bloat is to attempt to help in those areas (with varying levels of success of course). From cclist at sydex.com Tue Feb 9 19:10:10 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 09 Feb 2010 17:10:10 -0800 Subject: Algol vs Fortran was RE: VHDL vs Verilog In-Reply-To: References: <4b6fd060.26695.66eba@cclist.sydex.com>, <4B717A18.15502.1592433@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4B7196F2.31537.1C9D850@cclist.sydex.com> On 9 Feb 2010 at 15:50, Rich Alderson wrote: > In those industries in which there is a lot of legacy COBOL code > (which is to say, those industries most affected by the so-called "Y2K > bug"), wraparound on dates is not a particularly good idea. I note > the little old lady in the UK who got a letter from her insurance > company expressing congratulations over the arrival of her new baby > girl: A wrap-around year calculation had turned the 101 year old > woman into an infant. That wasn't my point. What I was getting at was that an awful lot of code was rewritten unnecessarily simply to accommodate the "bump" created by Y2K. Not making provision for someone being older than 99 is just plain stupid. When I think of a military customer from the 1970's, with tons of 7080 COBOL with undocumented binary patches (probably to 'ENTER AUTOCODER" routines) all running under emulation, the amount of work needed to unravel that mess for Y2K would have been incredible. --Chuck From emu at e-bbes.com Tue Feb 9 19:13:50 2010 From: emu at e-bbes.com (e.stiebler) Date: Tue, 09 Feb 2010 18:13:50 -0700 Subject: The value of assembler language programmers [was RE: Algol vs Fortran was RE: VHDL vs Verilog] In-Reply-To: References: <493390.80299.qm@web110407.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4B72084E.4040501@e-bbes.com> Ethan Dicks wrote: > [ actually a lot of good stuff] ;-) > 25+ years later, how far have uber-fast machines with uber-large and > uber-cheap storage really gotten us? Not as far as the raw numbers > might lead one to think. I can buy a machine that about fits in my > pocket that has 500 times the memory, 500 times the storage, and has a > clock that's nearly 500 times faster for 1/500th the cost* - a > 250,000X price-performance advantage. I think quite a bit of that > 500x multiplier is getting pissed away before I type a single > character. Yes it can do more; yes it feels faster. That much > faster? Not in my opinion. That's why I love to embedded stuff. And even here, any "reasonable" Real Time OS of today, can't really boot with 48 kbytes of memory. Progress I guess ;-) From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Feb 9 19:18:22 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2010 20:18:22 -0500 Subject: Algol vs Fortran was RE: VHDL vs Verilog In-Reply-To: <493390.80299.qm@web110407.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <493390.80299.qm@web110407.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Feb 9, 2010 at 6:44 PM, Russ Bartlett wrote: > The comments are wide of the mark.? I started programming in the 1960's. As has already been mentioned, I was referring to a generation or two _before_ you. *They* would have complained of your use of compilers and assembers. By your era, that argument was long stale. > 3) Anyone appreciating earlier data processing challenges would also be aware that storage came at a price.? Also there was a limitation as to what would fit onto a 80 column card (punched card).? Disc storage wasn't cheap... 11 years ago, I pointed this very fact out to "journalists" who were convinced that Y2K was all a scam to pad IT budgets because "nobody would have gone to that much trouble to save 4 bits (00-99 fits in 7 bits, 2000 fits in 11 bits) even in the 1950s. I pointed out that a) it was two characters, not 4 bits (BCD or EBCDIC or later ASCII), and b) a metropolitan utility company that just kept *only* two dates per customer would have millions of extra copies of "19" to keep track of, load, process, store, print, save, etc., and c) that one of the most easily exhausted resources was 80 columns on a punch card. If you encode the due-date of a utility bill onto the card for later processing, that's two columns less you have for account number or other pertinent information (I don't recall what punch-card bills specifically had on them - I only saw my parents pay them). Even the extra reels of tape from millions of copies of "19" will add up after a while. > and all this needed to be weighed against the belief that a system written in 1965 would not be used by Y2K. That's certainly true enough - who would have forecast that so much code was still running in one form or another after so many decades? > Maybe someone would like to explain to my why my Quick Books purchase in 1996 (C#) wasn't Y2K compliant.? I found a lot of the computer article written prior to the Y2K switch laughable being written by people by people that really hadn't a clue as to why the systems had been written that way in? the first place. It seems to me that any code written after 1980 _should_ have been written with 4-digit dates, but not enough of it was. We Americans were all too much in the habit of writing our dates as MM/DD/YY to get "far off" things to change. I personally made the switch in my own writing by the late 1980s, but I blame VMS and traveling in Europe for that (when is 01/02/03, as if 02/04/88 isn't bad enough? It all depends on where you are and where your audience is from.) -ethan From oltmansg at bellsouth.net Tue Feb 9 19:18:32 2010 From: oltmansg at bellsouth.net (Geoff Oltmans) Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2010 19:18:32 -0600 Subject: Algol vs Fortran was RE: VHDL vs Verilog In-Reply-To: <4B720548.3090808@kurico.com> References: <6F365783BCA.000005DDn0body.h0me@inbox.com> <0A82C779-29AA-41C6-BAF2-C1571B808D0C@neurotica.com> <4B712670.3050201@mail.msu.edu> <16E38B1D-0E55-4287-9DEE-CFE9AD76D686@neurotica.com> <4B71AD23.8040304@mail.msu.edu> <4B71B532.1070007@mail.msu.edu> <011719EC-CAE5-4482-A704-F2359BB17E52@mail.msu.edu> <6D2F1464-34E0-4601-AE47-7AD28DE28542@neurotica.com> <20100209221831.GB8039@brevard.conman.org> <323786.88210.qm@web83905.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <4B720548.3090808@kurico.com> Message-ID: I agree with this. I think C++ is a powerful tool, but as the joke goes, "When you shoot yourself in the foot with C, you blow a hole in your foot. When you shoot your foot in C++, your foot is obliterated." I'm sure the presentation of the original is funnier. ;) On Feb 9, 2010, at 7:00 PM, George Currie wrote: > geoffrey oltmans wrote: >> I'm not so sure that the overhead for C++ objects is quite a bad as everyone's making them out to be. Most of it boils down to simple pointer math and in other cases the compiler itself can abstract away some of the offset calculations. If variables live on the stack anyway, you'd have to do these offset calculations to get the data as well. >> > > I think the bigger point is that there are _many_ places in modern apps where TONS of time is being wasted such that the overhead of vtables (or more importantly, the lost functionality by doing away with them) is relatively minor (depends in large part on the app of course). Heck, in a modern OS, every time I type a character, like in this email, there are about a bazillion things that happen (proper font/face chosen, rendered, line formatting checked, spell checking, text identification and highlighting (e.g. urls), etc, etc, etc) compared to a character mode editor on a CLI. All that is obviously going to drain huge cycles. Now you could certainly make that entire chain more efficient by minimizing the effects of the vtable, but it's the features itself that factor into the overall feeling that the modern OS is less responsive (or at the least no more responsive) than those of days gone by. > > I happen to work at a job where we _do_ count clock cycles and we'll spend much time shaving microseconds from our code. We even study and understand the effects of processor groupings in modern multiprocessor/core computers. That said, we still code in C++ but we understand when it's worthwhile to shave, when it's not worthwhile getting that detailed and when it's worthwhile to change the algorithm vs trying to shave a few nanoseconds by avoiding vtables or aligning your memory accesses. > > I grew up doing assembler and C. That said, the biggest issue with software today (imho) isn't really speed (the folks at places like Intel and nVidia will help us there) it's really stability and functionality. The goal of a lot of the bloat is to attempt to help in those areas (with varying levels of success of course). From emu at e-bbes.com Tue Feb 9 19:19:03 2010 From: emu at e-bbes.com (e.stiebler) Date: Tue, 09 Feb 2010 18:19:03 -0700 Subject: Algol vs Fortran was RE: VHDL vs Verilog In-Reply-To: <796519A7-CA0B-4F3F-9284-A57844661643@bellsouth.net> References: <4b6fd060.26695.66eba@cclist.sydex.com> <4b700d62.20109.f4bca6@cclist.sydex.com> <6F365783BCA.000005DDn0body.h0me@inbox.com> <0A82C779-29AA-41C6-BAF2-C1571B808D0C@neurotica.com> <4B712670.3050201@mail.msu.edu> <16E38B1D-0E55-4287-9DEE-CFE9AD76D686@neurotica.com> <4B71AD23.8040304@mail.msu.edu> <4B71B532.1070007@mail.msu.edu> <011719EC-CAE5-4482-A704-F2359BB17E52@mail.msu.edu> <6D2F1464-34E0-4601-AE47-7AD28DE28542@neurotica.com> <8FEBF117-CA86-46DB-A611-DBFCBE392015@mail.msu.edu> <294DDFB2-7746-4C58-BC7C-FBA00EEB2243@neurotica.com> <510221.54429.qm@web83907.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <361AE27C-6F99-4CDD-AEF2-C39E9559059D@neurotica.com> <739792.43520.qm@web83906.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <5F05226B-11A9-4FCA-8570-58A52922B74A@neurotica.com> <796519A7-CA0B-4F3F-9284-A57844661643@bellsouth.net> Message-ID: <4B720987.3030001@e-bbes.com> Geoff Oltmans wrote: > You seemed to be arguing that there was absolutely no benefit to the added complexity (bloat you said) > of modern systems. Just because there's some application that you don't want doesn't mean that it's > necessarily wasteful though. Sorry, but because some kids like to watch movies, everybody else has to have a slow system ? Some of us, actually have to work on them. My solution to this is simple. I use the console screen as long as possible (linux/bsd/etc.) Then, when I really need to draw schematics or something which really needs a gui, I start it. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Feb 9 19:22:27 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2010 20:22:27 -0500 Subject: The value of assembler language programmers [was RE: Algol vs Fortran was RE: VHDL vs Verilog] In-Reply-To: <4B72084E.4040501@e-bbes.com> References: <493390.80299.qm@web110407.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4B72084E.4040501@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Feb 9, 2010 at 8:13 PM, e.stiebler wrote: > Ethan Dicks wrote: >> >> [ actually a lot of good stuff] ;-) Thank you. >> 25+ years later, how far have uber-fast machines with uber-large and >> uber-cheap storage really gotten us? > > That's why I love to embedded stuff. And even here, any "reasonable" Real > Time OS of today, can't really boot with 48 kbytes of memory. That brings to mind the assertions from Apple and Microsoft in the mid-1980s - that you "needed" 2MB of memory to multitask. Over a dozen simultaneously-updating "dotty windows" on a 256K A1000 was simple proof that there was another way. > Progress I guess ;-) Of a sort, I guess ;-) -ethan From cclist at sydex.com Tue Feb 9 19:24:29 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 09 Feb 2010 17:24:29 -0800 Subject: The value of assembler language programmers [was RE: Algol vs Fortran was RE: VHDL vs Verilog] In-Reply-To: <4B72084E.4040501@e-bbes.com> References: , , <4B72084E.4040501@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: <4B719A4D.16251.1D6F147@cclist.sydex.com> On 9 Feb 2010 at 18:13, e.stiebler wrote: > That's why I love to embedded stuff. And even here, any "reasonable" > Real Time OS of today, can't really boot with 48 kbytes of memory. Been on the AVR forums much lately? It's getting more difficult to find someone who writes in assembler. I suspect it's almost impossible on the ARM uC area. HLLs march on... --Chuck From emu at e-bbes.com Tue Feb 9 19:27:07 2010 From: emu at e-bbes.com (e.stiebler) Date: Tue, 09 Feb 2010 18:27:07 -0700 Subject: hp 9153 floppy & disk In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B720B6B.2040904@e-bbes.com> Tony Duell wrote: > THe Nighthawk drive interface is strange. Very strange. it has the raw > data signals of an ST412 drive (but on single-ended TTL lines, not > differential pairs). It also hasa the strangest positioner interface > you're likely to see. The positioner is a 2-winding stepper motor. You > get (at the drive interface) to contrtoll the currents through the > windings (there's a dual DAC in the drive).You also get soem kind of > position feedback signal from the drive (there's an ADC in there too). > There is no intellegence in the drive to control te DACs based on the > output from the ADC, that is done in the controller (I assume in part by > the 6809 firmware). > > Given there's an undocumented ASIC in the drive too, which has a register > accessible over the interface, and for whaich I have no data, tryign to > recreate the drive is going to be a big job. So, what you're saying is, that I should get myself a microcontroller with an sd-flash and start programming Amigo/CS80 ? And simply forget about the box I have here ? ;-) Cheers From emu at e-bbes.com Tue Feb 9 19:28:57 2010 From: emu at e-bbes.com (e.stiebler) Date: Tue, 09 Feb 2010 18:28:57 -0700 Subject: The value of assembler language programmers [was RE: Algol vs Fortran was RE: VHDL vs Verilog] In-Reply-To: References: <493390.80299.qm@web110407.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4B72084E.4040501@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: <4B720BD9.3070503@e-bbes.com> Ethan Dicks wrote: > That brings to mind the assertions from Apple and Microsoft in the > mid-1980s - that you "needed" 2MB of memory to multitask. Over a > dozen simultaneously-updating "dotty windows" on a 256K A1000 was > simple proof that there was another way. But they were cheating on the A1000. There was a processor in it ;-) Cheers From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Feb 9 19:34:21 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2010 20:34:21 -0500 Subject: The value of assembler language programmers [was RE: Algol vs Fortran was RE: VHDL vs Verilog] In-Reply-To: <4B719A4D.16251.1D6F147@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4B72084E.4040501@e-bbes.com> <4B719A4D.16251.1D6F147@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Feb 9, 2010 at 8:24 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 9 Feb 2010 at 18:13, e.stiebler wrote: > >> That's why I love to embedded stuff. And even here, any "reasonable" >> Real Time OS of today, can't really boot with 48 kbytes of memory. > > Been on the AVR forums much lately? ?It's getting more difficult to > find someone who writes in assembler. ?I suspect it's almost > impossible on the ARM uC area. I myself have only ever programmed AVRs in C (including older parts that had a mere 2K of code space), but I've done some PIC and MCS51 assembler in the past 5 years. Not much point to it usually, though. That much optimization is rarely needed in a part that has limited I/O and very limited memory. Occasionally, though, tasks like video timing or less-sloppy clock precision can benefit from some well-formed assembler. It wouldn't surprise me to learn that ARM microcontrollers were "impossible" to program in assembler. Workstations turned that corner when they went from CISC to RISC - I know very, very few RISC assembler programmers, but dozens who have done CISC assembly. -ethan From emu at e-bbes.com Tue Feb 9 19:38:53 2010 From: emu at e-bbes.com (e.stiebler) Date: Tue, 09 Feb 2010 18:38:53 -0700 Subject: The value of assembler language programmers [was RE: Algol vs Fortran was RE: VHDL vs Verilog] In-Reply-To: <4B719A4D.16251.1D6F147@cclist.sydex.com> References: , , <4B72084E.4040501@e-bbes.com> <4B719A4D.16251.1D6F147@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4B720E2D.90209@e-bbes.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > Been on the AVR forums much lately? It's getting more difficult to > find someone who writes in assembler. I suspect it's almost > impossible on the ARM uC area. Sorry, never liked them. They are cheap, and everybody (?) is crazy about them. But to many different versions out (thumb/native/cortex/whatever). Not really easy to deal with them on a lower level. From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Feb 9 19:39:34 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2010 20:39:34 -0500 Subject: Algol vs Fortran was RE: VHDL vs Verilog In-Reply-To: <796519A7-CA0B-4F3F-9284-A57844661643@bellsouth.net> References: <4b6fd060.26695.66eba@cclist.sydex.com> <6ed9562426e.0000058dn0body.h0me@inbox.com> <4b700d62.20109.f4bca6@cclist.sydex.com> <6F365783BCA.000005DDn0body.h0me@inbox.com> <0A82C779-29AA-41C6-BAF2-C1571B808D0C@neurotica.com> <4B712670.3050201@mail.msu.edu> <16E38B1D-0E55-4287-9DEE-CFE9AD76D686@neurotica.com> <4B71AD23.8040304@mail.msu.edu> <4B71B532.1070007@mail.msu.edu> <011719EC-CAE5-4482-A704-F2359BB17E52@mail.msu.edu> <6D2F1464-34E0-4601-AE47-7AD28DE28542@neurotica.com> <8FEBF117-CA86-46DB-A611-DBFCBE392015@mail.msu.edu> <294DDFB2-7746-4C58-BC7C-FBA00EEB2243@neurotica.com> <510221.54429.qm@web83907.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <361AE27C-6F99-4CDD-AEF2-C39E9559059D@neurotica.com> <739792.43520.qm@web83906.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <5F05226B-11A9-4FCA-8570-58A52922B74A@neurotica.com> <796519A7-CA0B-4F3F-9284- A57844661643@bellsouth.net> Message-ID: <9F038FC4-01C9-4FE0-BAF7-CA384D4A44A7@neurotica.com> On Feb 9, 2010, at 7:56 PM, Geoff Oltmans wrote: > You seemed to be arguing that there was absolutely no benefit to > the added complexity (bloat you said) of modern systems. Just > because there's some application that you don't want doesn't mean > that it's necessarily wasteful though. And you seem to be arguing that this system wouldn't be able to encode video or watch HD movies without that complexity. ;) I disagree. I don't mind *spending* cycles. That's what they're for. I just don't like wasting them. -Dave > -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Feb 9 19:41:18 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2010 20:41:18 -0500 Subject: The value of assembler language programmers [was RE: Algol vs Fortran was RE: VHDL vs Verilog] In-Reply-To: <4B72084E.4040501@e-bbes.com> References: <493390.80299.qm@web110407.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4B72084E.4040501@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: <9A2F043C-E070-407C-9007-0D3DD70166AF@neurotica.com> On Feb 9, 2010, at 8:13 PM, e.stiebler wrote: >> [ actually a lot of good stuff] ;-) >> 25+ years later, how far have uber-fast machines with uber-large and >> uber-cheap storage really gotten us? Not as far as the raw numbers >> might lead one to think. I can buy a machine that about fits in my >> pocket that has 500 times the memory, 500 times the storage, and >> has a >> clock that's nearly 500 times faster for 1/500th the cost* - a >> 250,000X price-performance advantage. I think quite a bit of that >> 500x multiplier is getting pissed away before I type a single >> character. Yes it can do more; yes it feels faster. That much >> faster? Not in my opinion. > > That's why I love to embedded stuff. And even here, any > "reasonable" Real Time OS of today, can't really boot with 48 > kbytes of memory. > > Progress I guess ;-) That's one of the big reasons why I moved into the embedded world too. Efficient programming is still valued in that world. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Feb 9 19:43:51 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2010 20:43:51 -0500 Subject: The value of assembler language programmers [was RE: Algol vs Fortran was RE: VHDL vs Verilog] In-Reply-To: <4B720BD9.3070503@e-bbes.com> References: <493390.80299.qm@web110407.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4B72084E.4040501@e-bbes.com> <4B720BD9.3070503@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Feb 9, 2010 at 8:28 PM, e.stiebler wrote: > Ethan Dicks wrote: >> >> That brings to mind the assertions from Apple and Microsoft in the >> mid-1980s - that you "needed" 2MB of memory to multitask. ?Over a >> dozen simultaneously-updating "dotty windows" on a 256K A1000 was >> simple proof that there was another way. > > But they were cheating on the A1000. > There was a processor in it ;-) Sort of... the dedicated graphics hardware provided visually impressive fill rates (try opening up the AmigaDOS "clock" tool and resizing it to fill the screen - it paints thousands of pixels on two bitplanes fast enough that you can barely see the polygons fill), but the real-time executive kernel (EXEC) was what serviced all those windows without a drop of application code to task-switch, unlike DOS or the classic MacOS. The machine was built from the ground up to support multitasking, unlike the other "popular" home platforms of the day. The custom chips just offloaded mundane data moving tasks (blitting, floppy data massaging, etc) leaving more time for the CPU to service all the processes on the machine. I did some work hacking "co-operative multitasking" application code to work on the Amiga (swaths of code deleted!). Boy was that stuff a mess. It really made me appreciate coming to the Amiga from UNIX, instead of coming "up" from other environments. Of course, earlier generations would decry task switching overhead as "wasteful" - just put all the jobs in a queue, run each job to completion really, really fast, then stack the output in the pigeonholes ;-) (I came in at the tail-end of the Batch vs Interactive Wars - I had *one* class in college that we submitted batch jobs to, but thankfully for my sanity at the time, it was terminal submissions, not punch-card submissions. I did all my work on 3270 terminals, and except for the 15,000-job-long run queues, it wasn't so bad). -ethan From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Feb 9 19:48:17 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2010 20:48:17 -0500 Subject: The value of assembler language programmers [was RE: Algol vs Fortran was RE: VHDL vs Verilog] In-Reply-To: <4B719A4D.16251.1D6F147@cclist.sydex.com> References: , , <4B72084E.4040501@e-bbes.com> <4B719A4D.16251.1D6F147@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Feb 9, 2010, at 8:24 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> That's why I love to embedded stuff. And even here, any "reasonable" >> Real Time OS of today, can't really boot with 48 kbytes of memory. > > Been on the AVR forums much lately? It's getting more difficult to > find someone who writes in assembler. I suspect it's almost > impossible on the ARM uC area. > > HLLs march on... In SOME places, yes. AVRs are an interesting anomaly: They're extremely powerful processors with very low barriers to entry. Lots of beginners start out with AVRs. (I'm NOT suggesting that AVRs are only for beginners!) Lots of beginners also seem to think that nobody programs in assembler anymore. Granted, far fewer do now than, say, thirty years ago, but lots do. One cannot replace all programming with HLLs, no more than one can replace all programming with C# or Java. ARMs are damn near impossible to program in assembler. That's why everyone uses C in that world. Lots of [modern incarnation] Z80, Z8, 8051, and low-end PIC development is done, both professionally and otherwise, in assembler today. Since those architectures aren't changing, and it's mainly done that way because of the architectures, I doubt it'll ever change. It certainly hasn't yet. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Feb 9 19:52:25 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2010 20:52:25 -0500 Subject: The value of assembler language programmers [was RE: Algol vs Fortran was RE: VHDL vs Verilog] In-Reply-To: References: <4B72084E.4040501@e-bbes.com> <4B719A4D.16251.1D6F147@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <88323961-7176-4D19-9BCA-09F747FAE4B2@neurotica.com> On Feb 9, 2010, at 8:34 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > I myself have only ever programmed AVRs in C (including older parts > that had a mere 2K of code space), but I've done some PIC and MCS51 > assembler in the past 5 years. Not much point to it usually, though. > That much optimization is rarely needed in a part that has limited I/O > and very limited memory. That's funny, I find that sort of optimization is required *because* the parts have limited memory. ;) (not arguing about I/O though) On 8051 designs, I always code very low-level routines that will be called a lot in assembler. Stuff like the low-level UART drivers for maintaining serial output buffers and such. The rest I generally do in C. I rarely write pure-C 8051 programs. > It wouldn't surprise me to learn that ARM microcontrollers were > "impossible" to program in assembler. Workstations turned that corner > when they went from CISC to RISC - I know very, very few RISC > assembler programmers, but dozens who have done CISC assembly. Absolutely. ARM is just plain difficult. Very interesting, but difficult. I won't go there in any serious way...all C on ARM for me. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From emu at e-bbes.com Tue Feb 9 19:54:19 2010 From: emu at e-bbes.com (e.stiebler) Date: Tue, 09 Feb 2010 18:54:19 -0700 Subject: The value of assembler language programmers [was RE: Algol vs Fortran was RE: VHDL vs Verilog] In-Reply-To: References: , , <4B72084E.4040501@e-bbes.com> <4B719A4D.16251.1D6F147@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4B7211CB.6040107@e-bbes.com> Dave McGuire wrote: > ARMs are damn near impossible to program in assembler. That's why > everyone uses C in that world. Lots of [modern incarnation] Z80, Z8, > 8051, and low-end PIC development is done, both professionally and > otherwise, in assembler today. Since those architectures aren't > changing, and it's mainly done that way because of the architectures, I > doubt it'll ever change. It certainly hasn't yet. What we need is a J11/T11 chip again, so we can program MACRO11 again ;-) (I know of the rumor, that the msp430 is loved by old pdp11 guys) From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Feb 9 19:57:27 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2010 20:57:27 -0500 Subject: The value of assembler language programmers [was RE: Algol vs Fortran was RE: VHDL vs Verilog] In-Reply-To: <4B7211CB.6040107@e-bbes.com> References: , , <4B72084E.4040501@e-bbes.com> <4B719A4D.16251.1D6F147@cclist.sydex.com> <4B7211CB.6040107@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: <6519CFAA-6191-4973-B444-8F506C810CB0@neurotica.com> On Feb 9, 2010, at 8:54 PM, e.stiebler wrote: >> ARMs are damn near impossible to program in assembler. That's >> why everyone uses C in that world. Lots of [modern incarnation] >> Z80, Z8, 8051, and low-end PIC development is done, both >> professionally and otherwise, in assembler today. Since those >> architectures aren't changing, and it's mainly done that way >> because of the architectures, I doubt it'll ever change. It >> certainly hasn't yet. > > What we need is a J11/T11 chip again, so we can program MACRO11 > again ;-) What we need is someone to code one up in VHDL or Verilog with a reasonable (read: easy to use for non-FPGA-gods) interface to the outside world. > (I know of the rumor, that the msp430 is loved by old pdp11 guys) With good reason...look at the architecture! I almost got misty- eyed when I looked at the instruction set. I hope to do more with msp430s soon. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Feb 9 20:06:22 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2010 21:06:22 -0500 Subject: The value of assembler language programmers [was RE: Algol vs Fortran was RE: VHDL vs Verilog] In-Reply-To: <88323961-7176-4D19-9BCA-09F747FAE4B2@neurotica.com> References: <4B72084E.4040501@e-bbes.com> <4B719A4D.16251.1D6F147@cclist.sydex.com> <88323961-7176-4D19-9BCA-09F747FAE4B2@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Feb 9, 2010 at 8:52 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On Feb 9, 2010, at 8:34 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> >> I myself have only ever programmed AVRs in C (including older parts >> that had a mere 2K of code space), but I've done some PIC and MCS51 >> assembler in the past 5 years. ?Not much point to it usually, though. >> That much optimization is rarely needed in a part that has limited I/O >> and very limited memory. > > ?That's funny, I find that sort of optimization is required *because* the > parts have limited memory. ;) ?(not arguing about I/O though) I was unclear - I meant time/cycle optimization, not space optimization. For bang-for-the-buck, AVRs are pretty good. The most expensive one I ever bought was just over $3. > ?On 8051 designs, I always code very low-level routines that will be called > a lot in assembler. ?Stuff like the low-level UART drivers for maintaining > serial output buffers and such. ?The rest I generally do in C. ?I rarely > write pure-C 8051 programs. Sure... serial comms are one of those time-sensitive things like video. When I used to write protocol engine code, our Z8530 routines were in assembler and 95% of the rest of the code was C (even the DMA engine code). -ethan From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Feb 9 20:14:15 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2010 21:14:15 -0500 Subject: Algol vs Fortran was RE: VHDL vs Verilog In-Reply-To: References: <493390.80299.qm@web110407.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > 11 years ago, I pointed this very fact out to "journalists" who were > convinced that Y2K was all a scam to pad IT budgets because "nobody > would have gone to that much trouble to save 4 bits (00-99 fits in 7 > bits, 2000 fits in 11 bits) even in the 1950s. While it was not a scam, it certainly was used to pad IT budgets. We lost a great many old machines because of it. > I pointed out that ... > that one of the most easily exhausted resources was 80 columns on a > punch card. ?If you encode the due-date of a utility bill onto the > card for later processing, that's two columns less you have for > account number or other pertinent information (I don't recall what > punch-card bills specifically had on them Just to nitpick - this would have been tiny. The unit record equipment could have been wired up to prepunch the 19 if need be (it wasn't), so the operators would still only have to key in the last two digits. And tape was really, really cheap. The problem was that disks turned from being used as temporary storage to full, online storage - then those two character started costing big bucks. -- Will From oltmansg at bellsouth.net Tue Feb 9 20:55:55 2010 From: oltmansg at bellsouth.net (Geoff Oltmans) Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2010 20:55:55 -0600 Subject: The value of assembler language programmers [was RE: Algol vs Fortran was RE: VHDL vs Verilog] In-Reply-To: References: , , <4B72084E.4040501@e-bbes.com> <4B719A4D.16251.1D6F147@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4CB26083-4581-4061-92D6-8E5603425BCE@bellsouth.net> While I've never programmed ARM in assembly, I've done quite a lot of assembly-level debug of ARM software. I think it is easier to understand than PPC assembly. On Feb 9, 2010, at 7:48 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On Feb 9, 2010, at 8:24 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >>> That's why I love to embedded stuff. And even here, any "reasonable" >>> Real Time OS of today, can't really boot with 48 kbytes of memory. >> >> Been on the AVR forums much lately? It's getting more difficult to >> find someone who writes in assembler. I suspect it's almost >> impossible on the ARM uC area. >> >> HLLs march on... > > In SOME places, yes. AVRs are an interesting anomaly: They're extremely powerful processors with very low barriers to entry. Lots of beginners start out with AVRs. (I'm NOT suggesting that AVRs are only for beginners!) Lots of beginners also seem to think that nobody programs in assembler anymore. > > Granted, far fewer do now than, say, thirty years ago, but lots do. One cannot replace all programming with HLLs, no more than one can replace all programming with C# or Java. > > ARMs are damn near impossible to program in assembler. That's why everyone uses C in that world. Lots of [modern incarnation] Z80, Z8, 8051, and low-end PIC development is done, both professionally and otherwise, in assembler today. Since those architectures aren't changing, and it's mainly done that way because of the architectures, I doubt it'll ever change. It certainly hasn't yet. > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire > Port Charlotte, FL > From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Feb 9 21:14:32 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2010 22:14:32 -0500 Subject: The value of assembler language programmers [was RE: Algol vs Fortran was RE: VHDL vs Verilog] In-Reply-To: <4CB26083-4581-4061-92D6-8E5603425BCE@bellsouth.net> References: , , <4B72084E.4040501@e-bbes.com> <4B719A4D.16251.1D6F147@cclist.sydex.com> <4CB26083-4581-4061-92D6-8E5603425BCE@bellsouth.net> Message-ID: On Feb 9, 2010, at 9:55 PM, Geoff Oltmans wrote: > While I've never programmed ARM in assembly, I've done quite a lot > of assembly-level debug of ARM software. I think it is easier to > understand than PPC assembly. PPC is another one I won't go near. ;) Give me 8051 and msp430 any day! -Dave > -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From pat at computer-refuge.org Tue Feb 9 21:26:56 2010 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2010 22:26:56 -0500 Subject: Algol vs Fortran was RE: VHDL vs Verilog In-Reply-To: <294DDFB2-7746-4C58-BC7C-FBA00EEB2243@neurotica.com> References: <4b6fd060.26695.66eba@cclist.sydex.com> <8FEBF117-CA86-46DB-A611-DBFCBE392015@mail.msu.edu> <294DDFB2-7746-4C58-BC7C-FBA00EEB2243@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <201002092226.56818.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Tuesday 09 February 2010, Dave McGuire wrote: > Feelings? No, experience. Big difference. Experience with and > knowledge of the past. There is NO RATIONAL REASON why a GUI-based > OS should need more than a billion bytes of memory and a billion-plus > clock cycles per second just to boot. You and I (and many others on > this list) have plenty of examples of machines that do the same thing > with a tiny fraction of those resources. Minor nit to pick... most of the "billion-plus" cycles per second spent on booting are spent waiting on I/O. If you look at the amount of time it takes to boot the same OS in a virtualized environment (and thus has some reasonable caching going on by the host OS, and emulated hardware devices), it'll shrink a lot. And I'm mostly speaking from the experience of running Linux under Xen, but even Windows Server 2008 under VirtualBox seemed to yield similar results, when I set that up for a friend. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Feb 9 21:52:02 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2010 19:52:02 -0800 (PST) Subject: The value of assembler language programmers [was RE: Algol vs Fortran was RE: VHDL vs Verilog] In-Reply-To: from Dave McGuire at "Feb 9, 10 10:14:32 pm" Message-ID: <201002100352.o1A3q2j6023588@floodgap.com> > > While I've never programmed ARM in assembly, I've done quite a lot > > of assembly-level debug of ARM software. I think it is easier to > > understand than PPC assembly. > > PPC is another one I won't go near. ;) PPC assembly is pretty hairy. I understand it enough to crack open a debugger, but I've never written in it as the primary language. Come to think of it, the only assembly I've done from the ground up has been 6502, even though I know a few other instruction sets (some better than others). -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- #include ------------------------------------------------ From IanK at vulcan.com Tue Feb 9 22:07:04 2010 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2010 20:07:04 -0800 Subject: The value of assembler language programmers [was RE: Algol vs Fortran was RE: VHDL vs Verilog] In-Reply-To: References: , , <4B72084E.4040501@e-bbes.com> <4B719A4D.16251.1D6F147@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: A big advantage of RISC is that the compiler can optimize code in some very serious, low-level ways that just aren't possible with a CISC ISA. The granularity is simply smaller, allowing a good compiler to hoist loads, anticipate latencies and in many respects take into account the strengths and weaknesses of the individual processor. -- Ian ________________________________________ From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dave McGuire [mcguire at neurotica.com] Sent: Tuesday, February 09, 2010 5:48 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: The value of assembler language programmers [was RE: Algol vs Fortran was RE: VHDL vs Verilog] On Feb 9, 2010, at 8:24 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> That's why I love to embedded stuff. And even here, any "reasonable" >> Real Time OS of today, can't really boot with 48 kbytes of memory. > > Been on the AVR forums much lately? It's getting more difficult to > find someone who writes in assembler. I suspect it's almost > impossible on the ARM uC area. > > HLLs march on... In SOME places, yes. AVRs are an interesting anomaly: They're extremely powerful processors with very low barriers to entry. Lots of beginners start out with AVRs. (I'm NOT suggesting that AVRs are only for beginners!) Lots of beginners also seem to think that nobody programs in assembler anymore. Granted, far fewer do now than, say, thirty years ago, but lots do. One cannot replace all programming with HLLs, no more than one can replace all programming with C# or Java. ARMs are damn near impossible to program in assembler. That's why everyone uses C in that world. Lots of [modern incarnation] Z80, Z8, 8051, and low-end PIC development is done, both professionally and otherwise, in assembler today. Since those architectures aren't changing, and it's mainly done that way because of the architectures, I doubt it'll ever change. It certainly hasn't yet. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From IanK at vulcan.com Tue Feb 9 22:10:29 2010 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2010 20:10:29 -0800 Subject: The value of assembler language programmers [was RE: Algol vs Fortran was RE: VHDL vs Verilog] In-Reply-To: <4B7211CB.6040107@e-bbes.com> References: , , <4B72084E.4040501@e-bbes.com> <4B719A4D.16251.1D6F147@cclist.sydex.com> , <4B7211CB.6040107@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: Think about it, if Ken Olsen hadn't been so dismissive of the idea of a Personal Computer, we might have had J11-based desktops. After all, a J11 with MMU could address 4MB, instead of the anemic 1MB of the 8086/88. -- Ian ________________________________________ From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of e.stiebler [emu at e-bbes.com] Sent: Tuesday, February 09, 2010 5:54 PM To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: The value of assembler language programmers [was RE: Algol vs Fortran was RE: VHDL vs Verilog] Dave McGuire wrote: > ARMs are damn near impossible to program in assembler. That's why > everyone uses C in that world. Lots of [modern incarnation] Z80, Z8, > 8051, and low-end PIC development is done, both professionally and > otherwise, in assembler today. Since those architectures aren't > changing, and it's mainly done that way because of the architectures, I > doubt it'll ever change. It certainly hasn't yet. What we need is a J11/T11 chip again, so we can program MACRO11 again ;-) (I know of the rumor, that the msp430 is loved by old pdp11 guys) From oltmansg at bellsouth.net Tue Feb 9 22:26:54 2010 From: oltmansg at bellsouth.net (Geoff Oltmans) Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2010 22:26:54 -0600 Subject: The value of assembler language programmers [was RE: Algol vs Fortran was RE: VHDL vs Verilog] In-Reply-To: <201002100352.o1A3q2j6023588@floodgap.com> References: <201002100352.o1A3q2j6023588@floodgap.com> Message-ID: My favorite has to be loading a 32-bit value... lis and then ori? lame! On Feb 9, 2010, at 9:52 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >>> While I've never programmed ARM in assembly, I've done quite a lot >>> of assembly-level debug of ARM software. I think it is easier to >>> understand than PPC assembly. >> >> PPC is another one I won't go near. ;) > > PPC assembly is pretty hairy. I understand it enough to crack open a > debugger, but I've never written in it as the primary language. > > Come to think of it, the only assembly I've done from the ground up has > been 6502, even though I know a few other instruction sets (some better than > others). > > -- > ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- > Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com > -- #include ------------------------------------------------ From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Feb 9 22:47:54 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2010 23:47:54 -0500 Subject: Algol vs Fortran was RE: VHDL vs Verilog In-Reply-To: <201002092226.56818.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <4b6fd060.26695.66eba@cclist.sydex.com> <8FEBF117-CA86-46DB-A611-DBFCBE392015@mail.msu.edu> <294DDFB2-7746-4C58-BC7C-FBA00EEB2243@neurotica.com> <201002092226.56818.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <19A9054C-5595-4B04-9188-CC0B2F9AFAEE@neurotica.com> On Feb 9, 2010, at 10:26 PM, Patrick Finnegan wrote: >> Feelings? No, experience. Big difference. Experience with and >> knowledge of the past. There is NO RATIONAL REASON why a GUI-based >> OS should need more than a billion bytes of memory and a billion-plus >> clock cycles per second just to boot. You and I (and many others on >> this list) have plenty of examples of machines that do the same thing >> with a tiny fraction of those resources. > > Minor nit to pick... most of the "billion-plus" cycles per second > spent > on booting are spent waiting on I/O. If you look at the amount of > time > it takes to boot the same OS in a virtualized environment (and thus > has > some reasonable caching going on by the host OS, and emulated hardware > devices), it'll shrink a lot. > > And I'm mostly speaking from the experience of running Linux under > Xen, > but even Windows Server 2008 under VirtualBox seemed to yield similar > results, when I set that up for a friend. Yes, I've seen this too. I'm just now wrapping up a fairly fun consulting project in which I'm virtualizing a few Linux and SCO OpenServer machines onto a smaller number of boxes using VMware. Boot times are a bit quicker. My "just to boot" comment above, though, wasn't meant to reference boot times at all, though. I meant "just to come into being". -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Feb 9 22:55:59 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2010 23:55:59 -0500 Subject: The value of assembler language programmers [was RE: Algol vs Fortran was RE: VHDL vs Verilog] In-Reply-To: References: <4B72084E.4040501@e-bbes.com> <4B719A4D.16251.1D6F147@cclist.sydex.com> <88323961-7176-4D19-9BCA-09F747FAE4B2@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Feb 9, 2010, at 9:06 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >>> I myself have only ever programmed AVRs in C (including older parts >>> that had a mere 2K of code space), but I've done some PIC and MCS51 >>> assembler in the past 5 years. Not much point to it usually, >>> though. >>> That much optimization is rarely needed in a part that has >>> limited I/O >>> and very limited memory. >> >> That's funny, I find that sort of optimization is required >> *because* the >> parts have limited memory. ;) (not arguing about I/O though) > > I was unclear - I meant time/cycle optimization, not space > optimization. Ahh, gotcha. > For bang-for-the-buck, AVRs are pretty good. The most expensive one I > ever bought was just over $3. That's excellent. There's no denying that they are Good Stuff (tm). And their development suite support is good too, not just loads of overpriced Windows-only binary-only commercial garbage. >> On 8051 designs, I always code very low-level routines that will >> be called >> a lot in assembler. Stuff like the low-level UART drivers for >> maintaining >> serial output buffers and such. The rest I generally do in C. I >> rarely >> write pure-C 8051 programs. > > Sure... serial comms are one of those time-sensitive things like > video. When I used to write protocol engine code, our Z8530 routines > were in assembler and 95% of the rest of the code was C (even the DMA > engine code). We work along similar philosophies. :) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Tue Feb 9 21:35:45 2010 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Tue, 09 Feb 2010 19:35:45 -0800 Subject: ASR-33 (was Re: Selling Calcomp 565 plotter) In-Reply-To: References: <201002021239.53154.pat@computer-refuge.org> <36C3D71D-EC51-4CC0-9ED4-5D59122AEFED@neurotica.com> <4B6F74B6.4050708@hachti.de> <201002090928.03169.pat@computer-refuge.org> <4B718D8D.4070201@hachti.de> Message-ID: <4B722991.2050603@mail.msu.edu> Dave McGuire wrote: > On Feb 9, 2010, at 4:20 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >> Oh, and I found my new in box ASR-33 today. Any takers? > > Holy cow!! > That reminds me -- saw a complete ASR-33 w/pedestal mount in an antique store in Seattle over the weekend. Looked to be in decent condition (obviously no idea if it's in working order). I believe they wanted just around $300, which seemed a bit spendy for my tastes, but I thought I'd mention it in case anyone in the area was interested. Address: Pacific Galleries 241 South Lander Street, Seattle, WA 98134 - Josh From cclist at sydex.com Tue Feb 9 23:59:02 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 09 Feb 2010 21:59:02 -0800 Subject: The value of assembler language programmers [was RE: Algol vs Fortran was RE: VHDL vs Verilog] In-Reply-To: <4B7211CB.6040107@e-bbes.com> References: , , <4B7211CB.6040107@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: <4B71DAA6.5998.2D24F12@cclist.sydex.com> On 9 Feb 2010 at 18:54, e.stiebler wrote: > What we need is a J11/T11 chip again, so we can program MACRO11 again > ;-) (I know of the rumor, that the msp430 is loved by old pdp11 guys) While I've played around with the MSP430 a bit, I can appreciate the value of a Harvard architecture on a microcontroller when all one has is a 16-bit addressing space. Some AVRs are very nice in this respect--you can connect an external SRAM that expands system RAM to 65K and still have your instruction space. --Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Feb 10 00:11:58 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2010 01:11:58 -0500 Subject: The value of assembler language programmers [was RE: Algol vs Fortran was RE: VHDL vs Verilog] In-Reply-To: <4B71DAA6.5998.2D24F12@cclist.sydex.com> References: , , <4B7211CB.6040107@e-bbes.com> <4B71DAA6.5998.2D24F12@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Feb 10, 2010, at 12:59 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> What we need is a J11/T11 chip again, so we can program MACRO11 again >> ;-) (I know of the rumor, that the msp430 is loved by old pdp11 guys) > > While I've played around with the MSP430 a bit, I can appreciate the > value of a Harvard architecture on a microcontroller when all one has > is a 16-bit addressing space. > > Some AVRs are very nice in this respect--you can connect an external > SRAM that expands system RAM to 65K and still have your instruction > space. Very nice indeed. mcs51 also enjoys that attribute. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Wed Feb 10 00:25:29 2010 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 09 Feb 2010 22:25:29 -0800 Subject: Y2K retrospective / was Re: Algol vs ... References: <493390.80299.qm@web110407.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4B725158.BC2BE1D6@cs.ubc.ca> William Donzelli wrote: > > > 11 years ago, I pointed this very fact out to "journalists" who were > > convinced that Y2K was all a scam to pad IT budgets because "nobody > > would have gone to that much trouble to save 4 bits (00-99 fits in 7 > > bits, 2000 fits in 11 bits) even in the 1950s. > > While it was not a scam, it certainly was used to pad IT budgets. I would argue the public aspect of the issue was a scam. The people who needed to know, knew already. The public hype around the issue was overblown and unnecessary. Remember the various experts and consultants railing about how microwave ovens and cars and anything with a microprocessor in it (things that didn't even know about the date) were going to fail? I still have the bulletin from the government mailed out to every household in Canada to prepare everyone for Y2K: a fine example of public folly. From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Feb 10 00:36:01 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2010 01:36:01 -0500 Subject: Selling Calcomp 565 plotter In-Reply-To: <4B71B466.1060305@hachti.de> References: <201002021239.53154.pat@computer-refuge.org> <36C3D71D-EC51-4CC0-9ED4-5D59122AEFED@neurotica.com> <4B6F74B6.4050708@hachti.de> <201002090928.03169.pat@computer-refuge.org> <4B718D8D.4070201@hachti.de> <4B71B466.1060305@hachti.de> Message-ID: On Feb 9, 2010, at 2:15 PM, Philipp Hachtmann wrote: >> I have been looking for a 565, no joke, for fifteen years. > > Wow! I've never even seen a vintage computer before autumn of 2004 > when I bought my H316 out of the blue. PDPs weren't so "vintage" when I got into them. I used a PDP-11/23 at work to maintain wire lists in 1985-1987. I got my first PDP-11 at home, an 11/34a, in (I think) 1986 when I was 17. I got a PDP-8/e about two years before that, but it was nonfunctional for a long time. > Ok, perhaps somewhere in a museum but those dead boxes were boring > to me. > Since then I collect old computers. And collecting means > collecting. Like you collect apples under a tree. Lucky man! >> I had one on my very first PDP-8/e when I was about 15, I loved >> the thing, then I stupidly sold it. > > But now you have some new ones? Yes I do; I count myself as fortunate. I love my machines and I'm very glad to have them. I work at home, and one very large room in my house is my office. An entire wall of my office, and most of another wall, is a row of racks: http://www.neurotica.com/misc/wall-o-pdp.jpg There's more behind where I was standing when I took the picture, but you get the idea. And there's now a PDP-11/50 where the leftmost RK07 is in that picture. When I get it a bit better organized I'll take better pictures. I also have a large stash of other machines in my garage...a great many Qbus PDP-11s, a PDP-10, a few Cray vector supers.. >> I regretted it badly about a year later and have been looking for >> one ever since. > > I once had a Tandy 200 computer. I still remember me throwing it > away in the mid nineties. With original cover, documentation, > everything. In pristine working condition. It was junk. Ok, it's no > pdp8/something or other really cool minicomputer. But I still > sometimes feel sad about that. As well you should. ;) Why would anyone throw a perfectly functional computer, any computer, in the trash? But I understand; I made some bad decisions years ago also. I didn't think far enough ahead. When I got into PDP hardware, there was no "classic computing hobby"; they were machines I used (and liked!) at work and I managed to get lucky and get one at home. Then another, then another...But I never dreamed they'd be considered a "collection". I sold and gave away many things that I later regretted. Since then I've been very lucky to get most of those things back. Thanks to some people on this list, I now have a GIGI (actually two!) and a VAX-11/750, for example...two things I owned back before they were antiques and stupidly sold, and missed ever since. >> If they're so common over there, would you consider shipping me >> one? (when I can afford it, which should be soon) > > Hm. Shipping will cost a fortune. True. I'll pay it (when I'm able), though, to get a 565. > I once shipped a Honeywell H316R (no other unit known to survive) > from US. That cost me $$$ plus more $$$ and some $$$ more... The > machine itself was bought for an epsilon. But in the end I've never > paid more for a vintage computer than the 316R...! > I currently have a 563 and three 565 plotters. I'd like to keep the > 563 and two 565 units because they have different resolutions. And > I have at least three computers fitted with interfaces to drive > them. The third 565 ist just being swapped away as part of a bigger > deal. Sorry. But I'll remember you when the next plotter drops in. Please do! I appreciate it greatly. > Oh, ball pens are no problem. I have those normal ball pen holders > where you can put a normal ball pen in. Even in two distinct sizes. > And I have a holder for fisher space pens. VERY much better. That's > basically the same but has a different end piece and inlay. I have > some spare inlays. But not the ends. > And there was an INK pen assembly. I have most of the parts - > multiple times. But I again miss the end piece. So I cannot use an > ink pen. I know only one person having the complete ink stuff: > http://pdp8.de/pages/calcomp_ip.htm > You can see the end piece in the middle of the upper row in the > picture. Wow, that's a nice set of pens! And what a beautiful wooden box they're in! That reminds me very much of some of my antique Leeds & Northrup instrument collection. >>> BTW it's the same with Teletype ASR33 and 35. In fact it's not >>> always easy to get rid of those if they're not in pristine >>> condition. >> ...it took me nearly a decade to find one of those. > Hm? Yes, you read that right. Many people here think ASR33s are everywhere, easy to find, and worth nothing. Well, maybe if you're in Silicon Valley or Boston, but nowhere else. I've known several people who have them, but nobody who has ever been willing to part with one. I even had two deals lined up in which I was going to drive to NJ and then to South Carolina to pick one up, but in both cases, someone else offered more money (about $200 and $250) and they were sold without my even being able to make a counter-offer. It wasn't until just this past year when my old friend Andrew up at M.I.T. gave me TWO ASR-33s, one working and one "almost" working. I gave one to Sridhar, and the other one adorns my living room. (right next to the Friden Flexowriter, wheee!) >> I'm not particularly bad at finding stuff, but I live in a part of >> the (my) country where there is NO classic hardware. >> "Old computer" here means >> "2GHz Pentium-4". Yes, sometimes I really want to move, and I >> probably will, because this area doesn't support the lifestyle >> that I want to live...which includes getting cool computer >> hardware on a regular basis. > > Where do you live? I live in southwest Florida, about 2/3 of the way down on the west coast of the state, right near the Gulf of Mexico. > I never understood why it is as difficult to get old hardware in > US. Ok, in Germany they sometimes pay $$$ (better: ???), too. Most > of the stuff we're talking about has been manufactured in US. And > was used far more widely there than anywhere else. I've wondered that too. > Perhaps there are different management approaches. Here "that once > was very expensive" can be a reason to keep stuff for decades. Here, when something is six months old, it's "garbage" and is sent to a recycler. In other cases, often there are kickbacks involved; recyclers bribe managers to decommission equipment very early in its life cycle, which the recyclers then sell and make a lot of money...some of which then comes back to the managers. It's disgusting. > At least in universities and other more or less public institutions. > Here it is sometimes difficult to save stuff from scrap. Just > because of the physical volume. I'm currently literally drowning in > DEC docs I saved from the dumpster in the last few days. Yes, cool > to have them. But...Ohhh! > And I don't know yet if the pdp10 software documentation will be > endangered as well. Saving that would generate real problems at my > side: currently counted 20 boxes. But be sure: I'll ensure that it > won't get thrown away. I'm glad to hear it! >> I know YOU find a lot of this stuff...I assure you that's not the >> norm. I sure wish it were! > > Ok, I probably have to admit that I've been quite (very?) lucky > sometimes. But in general its still far easier to get the good > stuff here in Germany. So move to Germany! We also have some > mountains one can climb and some lakes :-) I would love to! Perhaps someday I will! -Dave > -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cghillen at sbcglobal.net Tue Feb 9 14:46:44 2010 From: cghillen at sbcglobal.net (Calvin Hillen) Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2010 14:46:44 -0600 Subject: TIL311 or INL0397-1 Message-ID: <543621.26308.qm@smtp103.prem.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> I am in need of Texas Instruments TIL311 or INNOCOR INL0397-1. I have used both over the last 30 years and can no longer find them. If you know of a source I would appreciate the information. Newark Electronics has been my source over the years. They cannot find a substitute. Also INNOCOR was bought by JDSU in 2007 (the year I placed my last order with Newark). The Display Manufacturing was discontinued prior to the purchase by JDSU. Thanks, Cal From csquared3 at tx.rr.com Tue Feb 9 21:38:20 2010 From: csquared3 at tx.rr.com (CSquared) Date: Tue, 09 Feb 2010 21:38:20 -0600 Subject: The value of assembler language programmers [was RE: Algol vs Fortran was RE: VHDL vs Verilog] In-Reply-To: References: <4B72084E.4040501@e-bbes.com> <4B719A4D.16251.1D6F147@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4B722A2C.6060203@tx.rr.com> Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Tue, Feb 9, 2010 at 8:24 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> On 9 Feb 2010 at 18:13, e.stiebler wrote: >> >>> That's why I love to embedded stuff. And even here, any "reasonable" >>> Real Time OS of today, can't really boot with 48 kbytes of memory. >> Been on the AVR forums much lately? It's getting more difficult to >> find someone who writes in assembler. I suspect it's almost >> impossible on the ARM uC area. > > I myself have only ever programmed AVRs in C (including older parts > that had a mere 2K of code space), but I've done some PIC and MCS51 > assembler in the past 5 years. Not much point to it usually, though. > That much optimization is rarely needed in a part that has limited I/O > and very limited memory. Occasionally, though, tasks like video > timing or less-sloppy clock precision can benefit from some > well-formed assembler. > > It wouldn't surprise me to learn that ARM microcontrollers were > "impossible" to program in assembler. Workstations turned that corner > when they went from CISC to RISC - I know very, very few RISC > assembler programmers, but dozens who have done CISC assembly. > > -ethan > You may well be nearly right about the "impossible" part, though I notice you put it in quotes which I interpret to mean you think it may only be extremely difficult. I never got really serious about it, but I did look at just a few of the "start up" instructions in an ARM-7 TDMI chip (Philips/NXP 2148 actually) once when I was trying to puzzle something out about what happened just after a reset - like which I/O pins were checked in what order to see what to do next. The instructions did seem rather arcane, but I was able to puzzle out enough for my purposes and felt that I could have understood it fully if I had the time and a real need to do so. Might not be a lot of fun though. I still have an eval board for that chip, so maybe some day I'll dig a little deeper and see how bad it really is. In some of my reading I have gotten the idea that over the years the difference in CISC and RISC has been substantially reduced too. Just as one example, I understand that early on the RISC guys insisted that every instruction be the same length but evidently that went out the window over time when they realized the non-economy of insisting on that philosophy. From what I read, over time the line between CISC and RISC has became even more blurred. If this is true then assembly language programming for the latest ARM might be much easier than RISC assembly was early on, and might not be so bad after all. Later, Charlie C. From csquared3 at tx.rr.com Tue Feb 9 22:08:30 2010 From: csquared3 at tx.rr.com (CSquared) Date: Tue, 09 Feb 2010 22:08:30 -0600 Subject: The value of assembler language programmers [was RE: Algol vs Fortran was RE: VHDL vs Verilog] In-Reply-To: References: <493390.80299.qm@web110407.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4B72313E.3040204@tx.rr.com> Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Tue, Feb 9, 2010 at 7:03 PM, Rich Alderson wrote: >>> --- On Tue, 2/9/10, Ethan Dicks wrote: >>>> Probably a lot. In the earliest days, assemblers were considered a poor use >>>> of time on the machine. >>> Assemblers were NOT considered poor use of machine time - totally the >>> reverse. Assembler programmers had to know what they were doing though and >>> for that I was paid more. It took far less time to assemble a program in >>> BAL that compile a COBOL program. The down side was it took a lot longer >>> to write. >> I'm pretty sure that Ethan was talking about the attitudes in the mid-1950s, >> when assembler languages were born. > > Yep. Assemblers vs Machine Code, not Assemblers vs High Level > Language Compilers. > > I did say "the earliest days". Sorry for not assigning a year to that. > >> He is correct that at the time, the use >> of assembler languages was controversial, because so much precious computer >> time was wasted doing something that any good programmer ought to be able to >> do at his desk. > > That is the attitude I was recalling. > >> *Every* generation of programmers has *always* looked down on their successors >> as using tools that waste too much computer time to do too little. Of course, >> *my* generation (started programming in 1969 on a 1401) is right. ;-) > > I certainly agree with you in principle, but I still wonder why even > non-GUI application bloat has to be as bad as it is. We used to put > 25-40 users on an 8MB VAX before it would start to swap. Now, still > using a character based interface (which happens to be ssh vs direct > serial connect, but that doesn't affect CLI application size), a > program to tell me what processes are active on the system is 8MB by > itself, vs a few dozen K bytes (I should go back and dig out one of > those programs from the old days and port it to a modern machine to > compare library bloat vs application bloat. Fortunately, I have my > backups from 25 years ago). ICBW, but I think a lot of the bloat is caused by the layer upon layer upon layer upon layer of application interface code. My theory is that all those layers arose because of inadequate or incompetent design in the first place. Then too, I think we have a lot of "features" that are rarely used and that we would be better off without, to say nothing of all the changes for no apparent reason other than to just be different. I also suspect that some of those spurious features are the root cause of a lot of the security holes. Too, your "non-GUI" application is probably actually running inside a system GUI which only emulates the non-GUI user interface you think you're using. :-) > > This is C code then and C code now, 80x25 then and 80x25 now. UNIX > then and UNIX or Linux now. 32-bit processors then, 32-bit processors > now. Not quite apples to oranges like most comparisons reaching back > that far across the generations of equipment and mentalities. > > 25+ years later, how far have uber-fast machines with uber-large and > uber-cheap storage really gotten us? Not as far as the raw numbers > might lead one to think. I can buy a machine that about fits in my > pocket that has 500 times the memory, 500 times the storage, and has a > clock that's nearly 500 times faster for 1/500th the cost* - a > 250,000X price-performance advantage. I think quite a bit of that > 500x multiplier is getting pissed away before I type a single > character. Yes it can do more; yes it feels faster. That much > faster? Not in my opinion. > > > -ethan > > * Numbers based on 1984 stats for a VAX-11/750 w/RA81 - approx $150K, > integer speed approx the same as 8MHz 68000, 8MB RAM, 450 MB of disk, > compared with a modern portable 3.6GHz machine w/4GB of RAM and 250GB > of disk for under $400. Some settling may have occurred in shipping. > Post No Bills, etc. > > > > > > -ethan > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 9.0.733 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2678 - Release Date: 02/09/10 13:35:00 > From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Feb 10 02:20:39 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2010 03:20:39 -0500 Subject: TIL311 or INL0397-1 In-Reply-To: <543621.26308.qm@smtp103.prem.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <543621.26308.qm@smtp103.prem.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3F46A0C4-B14A-41C6-88FA-2E5258381290@neurotica.com> On Feb 9, 2010, at 3:46 PM, Calvin Hillen wrote: > I am in need of Texas Instruments TIL311 or INNOCOR INL0397-1. I > have used > both over the last 30 years and can no longer find them. If you > know of a > source I would appreciate the information. Newark Electronics has > been my > source over the years. They cannot find a substitute. Also > INNOCOR was > bought by JDSU in 2007 (the year I placed my last order with > Newark). The > Display Manufacturing was discontinued prior to the purchase by JDSU. Unicorn Electronics has TIL311s in stock. See: http://www.unicornelectronics.com/ -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From emu at e-bbes.com Wed Feb 10 04:04:14 2010 From: emu at e-bbes.com (e.stiebler) Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2010 03:04:14 -0700 Subject: The value of assembler language programmers [was RE: Algol vs Fortran was RE: VHDL vs Verilog] In-Reply-To: References: , , <4B72084E.4040501@e-bbes.com> <4B719A4D.16251.1D6F147@cclist.sydex.com> , <4B7211CB.6040107@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: <4B72849E.2080608@e-bbes.com> Ian King wrote: > Think about it, if Ken Olsen hadn't been so dismissive of the idea of a Personal Computer, >we might have had J11-based desktops. After all, a J11 with MMU could address 4MB, > instead of the anemic 1MB of the 8086/88. -- Ian We had. Pro380 ;-) From emu at e-bbes.com Wed Feb 10 04:15:59 2010 From: emu at e-bbes.com (e.stiebler) Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2010 03:15:59 -0700 Subject: Selling Calcomp 565 plotter In-Reply-To: References: <201002021239.53154.pat@computer-refuge.org> <36C3D71D-EC51-4CC0-9ED4-5D59122AEFED@neurotica.com> <4B6F74B6.4050708@hachti.de> <201002090928.03169.pat@computer-refuge.org> <4B718D8D.4070201@hachti.de> <4B71B466.1060305@hachti.de> Message-ID: <4B72875F.9030304@e-bbes.com> Dave McGuire wrote: > Since then I've been very lucky to get most of those things back. > Thanks to some people on this list, I now have a GIGI (actually two!) > and a VAX-11/750, for example...two things I owned back before they were > antiques and stupidly sold, and missed ever since. I had once three GIGIs, and a VAX11/750. Gave them to Clint Wolf here in Denver, and never heard back from him. Miss the VAX-11/750, was a stupid move to give it away, but I was moving, and thought ... Actually, no idea what I thought ;-) From alec at sensi.org Wed Feb 10 04:56:53 2010 From: alec at sensi.org (Alexander Voropay) Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2010 13:56:53 +0300 Subject: Labtam 32032 Message-ID: <347d9b1b1002100256u51d86602yda6abee7e5406260@mail.gmail.com> Hi! Does anyone have information about Labtam 32032 system ? We've found one in the military depot: http://www.phantom.sannata.ru/forum/index.php?t=6175 (cyrillic, use Google Translator) Seems, this machines was rather popular in the USSR (behind the iron curtain) - it was possible to avoid COCOM since Labtam was an Australian company. It used NSC 32K processol and Unix V2.0 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Semiconductor_32016 -- -=AV=- From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Wed Feb 10 07:49:35 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2010 13:49:35 +0000 Subject: Algol vs Fortran was RE: VHDL vs Verilog In-Reply-To: <201002090914.28688.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <4b6fd060.26695.66eba@cclist.sydex.com> <6F365783BCA.000005DDn0body.h0me@inbox.com> <0A82C779-29AA-41C6-BAF2-C1571B808D0C@neurotica.com> <201002090914.28688.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <4B72B96F.6000407@philpem.me.uk> Patrick Finnegan wrote: > But, isn't the point of programming languages to make it easier for the > programmer to create programs? Computers are fast; people are slow. I'd agree with that. > Have you ever tried writing code against GTK (not-quite-OOP jammed into > C) vs Qt (real OOP using C++)? GTK is such a pile of sh*t to try to > write code for, in my opinion. Try the Windows API some time. That's even more fun. I've been using wxWidgets for a while -- mainly because it abstracts all this bullcrap into a common interface. You can change platforms and the code remains the same -- normal apps will work fine on GTK+{$UNIX_FLAVOUR}, Windows 32/64-bit using the native API, and Mac OS X. Even applications that make use of hardware can be made portable across all three platforms -- LibUSB runs native on OSX and Linux, and there's a port for Windows too. Creating, say, a window is a piece of cake -- extend the wxFrame class, add your components to the constructor (stuff like "myTextBox = new wxTextBox(this)"), and add event handler functions to deal with what the user does. The one thing I haven't found yet is an equivalent for Delphi's "Application.ProcessMessages()" function -- which basically forces the VCL to run the event handler / window refresh loop again. Very handy in long do-while or for-next loops. It's probably there, though -- just that I haven't RTFM'd enough to find it in the wxWidgets manual. -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Feb 10 09:42:56 2010 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2010 08:42:56 -0700 Subject: The value of assembler language programmers [was RE: Algol vs Fortran was RE: VHDL vs Verilog] In-Reply-To: <4B72084E.4040501@e-bbes.com> References: <493390.80299.qm@web110407.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4B72084E.4040501@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: <4B72D400.2000004@jetnet.ab.ca> e.stiebler wrote: > Ethan Dicks wrote: >> [ actually a lot of good stuff] ;-) >> 25+ years later, how far have uber-fast machines with uber-large and >> uber-cheap storage really gotten us? Not as far as the raw numbers >> might lead one to think. I can buy a machine that about fits in my >> pocket that has 500 times the memory, 500 times the storage, and has a >> clock that's nearly 500 times faster for 1/500th the cost* - a >> 250,000X price-performance advantage. I think quite a bit of that >> 500x multiplier is getting pissed away before I type a single >> character. Yes it can do more; yes it feels faster. That much >> faster? Not in my opinion. > > That's why I love to embedded stuff. And even here, any "reasonable" > Real Time OS of today, can't really boot with 48 kbytes of memory. OS/9 for the 6809 does alot, but not real time.I suspect a real time OS would be in the same ball park. Graphics is the killer for any small system and that is where I would check first. > Progress I guess ;-) Yes. today in one chip you can do what 5 chips of yesterday can do with all pins left for I/O stuff. From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Feb 10 10:24:23 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2010 11:24:23 -0500 Subject: Selling Calcomp 565 plotter In-Reply-To: <4B72875F.9030304@e-bbes.com> References: <201002021239.53154.pat@computer-refuge.org> <36C3D71D-EC51-4CC0-9ED4-5D59122AEFED@neurotica.com> <4B6F74B6.4050708@hachti.de> <201002090928.03169.pat@computer-refuge.org> <4B718D8D.4070201@hachti.de> <4B71B466.1060305@hachti.de> <4B72875F.9030304@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: <7E19E01D-6432-4139-B199-984591E58E00@neurotica.com> On Feb 10, 2010, at 5:15 AM, e.stiebler wrote: >> Since then I've been very lucky to get most of those things back. >> Thanks to some people on this list, I now have a GIGI (actually >> two!) and a VAX-11/750, for example...two things I owned back >> before they were antiques and stupidly sold, and missed ever since. > > I had once three GIGIs, and a VAX11/750. Gave them to Clint Wolf > here in Denver, and never heard back from him. Miss the VAX-11/750, > was a stupid move to give it away, but I was moving, and thought ... > > Actually, no idea what I thought ;-) Such decisions are usually regretted later. Nowadays I make sure I state that I might want the item back at some point in the future. :) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ray at arachelian.com Wed Feb 10 10:54:53 2010 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2010 11:54:53 -0500 Subject: Algol vs Fortran was RE: VHDL vs Verilog In-Reply-To: <3690A970-A290-4EC2-A8E3-11016BB120A4@neurotica.com> References: <4b6fd060.26695.66eba@cclist.sydex.com> <6F365783BCA.000005DDn0body.h0me@inbox.com> <0A82C779-29AA-41C6-BAF2-C1571B808D0C@neurotica.com> <201002090914.28688.pat@computer-refuge.org> <3690A970-A290-4EC2-A8E3-11016BB120A4@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4B72E4DD.1060303@arachelian.com> Dave McGuire wrote: > > Useful in saving programmer time, yes. But look at the result! A > modern multi-GHz Linux box running GTK is far less > "responsive"-feeling than my old SPARCstation-IPX running fvwm when > just tooling around the GUI. A little more time spent by the > programmers, ignoring the "easy way out" or heavy OO programming and > it'd be FAR faster. There's always lighter things like LXDE or XFCE. > > So, spend a little time now, ONCE, and make a million Linux boxes > twice as fast? That sounds like a good deal to me. Indeed 5 minutes saved of programmer time = thousands of hours (or for popular apps millions) wasted by end users. > > Yes I know GTK isn't written in an OO language, but I'm talking > about OO *techniques*...just like some programmers (I may be guilty of > this) can "write C in any language", some programmers seem to be able > to write C++ any any language. It's not the OOP stuff, it's the architecture astronaut ideal of layering meaningless abstractions on top of meaningless abstractions. It's turtles all the way down. :-) It was always PREMATURE optimization that was evil, not optimization. Yet, they plow on like all optimization is evil. Some of the stuff amazes me. We now have an app at $WORK that's an in memory XML db - the data in memory is just a plain XML file as far as we can tell - not tokenized and structured. Our db is ~100GB in size and growing. Worse yet, this db "engine" is not multithreaded. Also, it takes about an hour to save or load the db from/to disk. Of course this is on a clustered system for high availability. But it takes more than an hour to do a failover. The previous version required you to load X copies of the db in memory if you wanted to do X things with it at once! So a 384GB - yes GB machine with 32 AMD 2GHz cores just isn't enough for this thing. They've fixed this a bit, but nowhere near what it should be. Like all poorly written apps, this one crashes occasionally. Care to guess what happens to the poor file system when it tries to write a 300GB core file to disk that's far smaller? :-( This is just pure insanity. Just 25 years ago, I remember fighting to save every byte of a 5K program, and now we have this insanity. GTK has NOTHING on this evil thing. Be happy if GTK's your only gripe. :-) From trag at io.com Wed Feb 10 11:19:40 2010 From: trag at io.com (Jeff Walther) Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2010 11:19:40 -0600 (CST) Subject: Algol vs Fortran was RE: VHDL vs Verilog In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5ff7577fe027a50bd19e8f2ce8de3748.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com> > Date: Tue, 09 Feb 2010 12:28:17 -0700 > From: Ben > Chuck Guzis wrote: > >> How about GOTO-less CPUs? Do any exist that completely lack a jump >> instruction of any sort (I'm not counting those where PC is mapped as >> a general register)? > > You must have a jump instruction for a loop. > Weird programing and computing... different topic. I'm not sure you would count it as a CPU, but the TI-55 programmable calculator lacked any type of jump or branch instruction, IIRC. All programs were purely linear. So, in addition to having considerably less memory, it was also limited in this way, as compared to a TI-58 or TI-59. Jeff Walther From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Wed Feb 10 13:37:21 2010 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2010 20:37:21 +0100 Subject: hp 9153 floppy & disk Message-ID: <201002101937.o1AJbENf004322@smtp-vbr18.xs4all.nl> -----Original Message----- From: e.stiebler Sent: 10 februari 2010 ?. 02:27 To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: hp 9153 floppy & disk Tony Duell wrote: > THe Nighthawk drive interface is strange. Very strange. it has the raw > data signals of an ST412 drive (but on single-ended TTL lines, not > differential pairs). It also hasa the strangest positioner interface > you're likely to see. The positioner is a 2-winding stepper motor. You > get (at the drive interface) to contrtoll the currents through the > windings (there's a dual DAC in the drive).You also get soem kind of > position feedback signal from the drive (there's an ADC in there too). > There is no intellegence in the drive to control te DACs based on the > output from the ADC, that is done in the controller (I assume in part by > the 6809 firmware). > > Given there's an undocumented ASIC in the drive too, which has a register > accessible over the interface, and for whaich I have no data, tryign to > recreate the drive is going to be a big job. So, what you're saying is, that I should get myself a microcontroller with an sd-flash and start programming Amigo/CS80 ? And simply forget about the box I have here ? ;-) Cheers You could use HPDIR with a sbc with hp-ib and a flash drive. I'm building one with a Kontron SBC. -Rik From IanK at vulcan.com Wed Feb 10 13:39:35 2010 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2010 11:39:35 -0800 Subject: The value of assembler language programmers [was RE: Algol vs Fortran was RE: VHDL vs Verilog] In-Reply-To: <4B72849E.2080608@e-bbes.com> References: , , <4B72084E.4040501@e-bbes.com> <4B719A4D.16251.1D6F147@cclist.sydex.com> , <4B7211CB.6040107@e-bbes.com> <4B72849E.2080608@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of e.stiebler > Sent: Wednesday, February 10, 2010 2:04 AM > To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: The value of assembler language programmers [was RE: Algol > vs Fortran was RE: VHDL vs Verilog] > > Ian King wrote: > > Think about it, if Ken Olsen hadn't been so dismissive of the idea of > a Personal Computer, > >we might have had J11-based desktops. After all, a J11 with MMU > could > address 4MB, > > instead of the anemic 1MB of the 8086/88. -- Ian > > We had. Pro380 ;-) No, I mean ones that people actually bought. From sellam at vintagetech.com Wed Feb 10 13:39:11 2010 From: sellam at vintagetech.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2010 11:39:11 -0800 (PST) Subject: Seeking ARM MEMC2 Technical Reference Manual ($$$) Message-ID: I'm looking for "MEMC2 Technical Reference Manual" put out by Advanced RISC Machines in 1990. Anyone have it or can make a PDF copy? Willing to pay a bounty for this if you have it. Please contact me directly. Thanks! -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From emu at e-bbes.com Wed Feb 10 13:57:49 2010 From: emu at e-bbes.com (e.stiebler) Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2010 12:57:49 -0700 Subject: hp 9153 floppy & disk In-Reply-To: <201002101937.o1AJbENf004322@smtp-vbr18.xs4all.nl> References: <201002101937.o1AJbENf004322@smtp-vbr18.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <4B730FBD.7010701@e-bbes.com> Rik Bos wrote: > > You could use HPDIR with a sbc with hp-ib and a flash drive. > I'm building one with a Kontron SBC. No, that doesn't hurt enough ;-) Like to use a little microcontroller and do it right (tm) It shouldn't be bigger than a pack of cigarettes. cheers From oltmansg at bellsouth.net Wed Feb 10 14:00:32 2010 From: oltmansg at bellsouth.net (geoffrey oltmans) Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2010 12:00:32 -0800 (PST) Subject: The value of assembler language programmers [was RE: Algol vs Fortran was RE: VHDL vs Verilog] In-Reply-To: References: , , <4B72084E.4040501@e-bbes.com> <4B719A4D.16251.1D6F147@cclist.sydex.com> , <4B7211CB.6040107@e-bbes.com> <4B72849E.2080608@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: <893725.71632.qm@web83903.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> I wonder how successful the likes of the Dec PRO series would have been had they not been astronomically expensive, even compared to the already expensive IBM PC/XT. I had a Pro/350 that my uncle bought brand new, and at the time I think he spent close to $10k on it around 1983ish and it still had a monochrome display. ________________________________ From: Ian King To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Sent: Wed, February 10, 2010 1:39:35 PM Subject: RE: The value of assembler language programmers [was RE: Algol vs Fortran was RE: VHDL vs Verilog] > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of e.stiebler > Sent: Wednesday, February 10, 2010 2:04 AM > To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: The value of assembler language programmers [was RE: Algol > vs Fortran was RE: VHDL vs Verilog] > > Ian King wrote: > > Think about it, if Ken Olsen hadn't been so dismissive of the idea of > a Personal Computer, > >we might have had J11-based desktops. After all, a J11 with MMU > could > address 4MB, > > instead of the anemic 1MB of the 8086/88. -- Ian > > We had. Pro380 ;-) No, I mean ones that people actually bought. From hachti at hachti.de Wed Feb 10 14:11:25 2010 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2010 21:11:25 +0100 Subject: ASR-33 (was Re: Selling Calcomp 565 plotter) In-Reply-To: <4B722991.2050603@mail.msu.edu> References: <201002021239.53154.pat@computer-refuge.org> <36C3D71D-EC51-4CC0-9ED4-5D59122AEFED@neurotica.com> <4B6F74B6.4050708@hachti.de> <201002090928.03169.pat@computer-refuge.org> <4B718D8D.4070201@hachti.de> <4B722991.2050603@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <4B7312ED.8010309@hachti.de> > That reminds me -- saw a complete ASR-33 w/pedestal mount in an antique > store in Seattle over the weekend. I know one in south western Germany, free for pickup. If anybody is interested, I could provide the contact. But I probably won't be able to go there because it's ~850km from here... -- http://www.hachti.de From roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk Wed Feb 10 14:15:34 2010 From: roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk (Roger Holmes) Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2010 20:15:34 +0000 Subject: The value of assembler language programmers [was RE: Algol vs Fortran was RE: VHDL vs Verilog] In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D22312E-3223-484F-A18B-59E5FFF29AE7@microspot.co.uk> >> >>> *Every* generation of programmers has *always* looked down on their successors >>> as using tools that waste too much computer time to do too little. Of course, >>> *my* generation (started programming in 1969 on a 1401) is right. ;-) >> >> I certainly agree with you in principle, but I still wonder why even >> non-GUI application bloat has to be as bad as it is. We used to put >> 25-40 users on an 8MB VAX before it would start to swap. Now, still >> using a character based interface (which happens to be ssh vs direct >> serial connect, but that doesn't affect CLI application size), a >> program to tell me what processes are active on the system is 8MB by >> itself, vs a few dozen K bytes (I should go back and dig out one of >> those programs from the old days and port it to a modern machine to >> compare library bloat vs application bloat. Fortunately, I have my >> backups from 25 years ago). > ICBW, but I think a lot of the bloat is caused by the layer upon layer > upon layer upon layer of application interface code. My theory is that > all those layers arose because of inadequate or incompetent design in > the first place. Then too, I think we have a lot of "features" that are > rarely used and that we would be better off without, to say nothing of > all the changes for no apparent reason other than to just be different. > I also suspect that some of those spurious features are the root cause > of a lot of the security holes. Too, your "non-GUI" application is > probably actually running inside a system GUI which only emulates the > non-GUI user interface you think you're using. :-) I too started programming in 1969 but on a 7094, though as a schoolboy sending off cards one week to get results the next week. Yes of course we're right :-) I agree there are far too many levels of interface code, many with bugs in them which sometime get corrected in a different level. Take text on the Mac, there was a simple technology for drawing text in QuickDraw on Lisa, it did proportional fonts, different size text, handle descent, ascent and leading. On Mac they added a Text Editing manager. Then they had to allow for internationalized for non left to right languages, then they added kerning etc then they tried to replace the Text Editing manager with the Multi-Lingual Text Editing manager, then along came Unicode and we got ATSUI (The Apple Type Services for Unicode Imaging) and so it went on, all the old levels are still available, though deprecated and unavailable to 64 bit Apps. Trying to get a Carbon application to get Unicode text to appear at the right size on a non 72dpi screen AND print properly is somewhat of a nightmare. I would like to discuss Moore's law and how it seems to have broken down in recent years. Processor speeds are still increasing but not at the expected rate, but I wonder if the real problem is RAM speed, which does not seemed to have kept up, and no longer seems to be quoted when you buy a computer, or at least a Mac. Of course on chip and level 2 cache has made tight loops of small pieces of data acceptably fast but real world programs don't do that. Think about rotating a 12 mega pixel image for instance, yes the code is a tight loop but the data isn't. Think about rendering a 3D scene with many textured objects with accurate shadows and per pixel shading and anti-aliasing ready for printing on a A0 (about 34 inch by 44 inch) printer and complex enough not to fit the capabilities of the graphics processor so it has to be done in the main processor cores. The data being processed is far too big to fit in the caches and the output pixel maps are too, though I admit it only processes one pixel at a time. Oh and while you are at it, think about error diffusing the output. I know on the PowerPC the rotation or a one bit per pixel actually ran quicker if I turned the cache off because for every bit I fetched it loaded the cache with four words of data. Does something similar happen on Intel? By the way I spent three hours this morning showing a BBC regional news crew my 1962 mainframe, apparently it will be condensed down to three minutes. I don't have a transmission date, it didn't go out today and probably will only shown in the south east area of England but should be on the BBC web site. Oh and a couple of weeks ago I posted an old video of it on U-Tube if anyone is interested the URL is http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VsBPuUJPvKg or just Google ICT 1301 and select video. I hope to post a better one later in the year. Roger Holmes From rtellason at verizon.net Wed Feb 10 14:50:08 2010 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason, Sr.) Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2010 15:50:08 -0500 Subject: offer: IBM Binder Message-ID: <201002101550.08619.rtellason@verizon.net> It's a loose-leaf binder, labeled on the spine "IBM 7137 Disk Array Subsystem Customer and Service Information"... Anybody want to take this off my hands? Postage and a little extra would be much appreciated. :-) I have no use for it, so if I don't find someone who does it pretty soon gets the binder recycled and the paper gone. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Feb 10 14:51:59 2010 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2010 12:51:59 -0800 Subject: hp 9153 floppy & disk In-Reply-To: <201002101937.o1AJbENf004322@smtp-vbr18.xs4all.nl> References: <201002101937.o1AJbENf004322@smtp-vbr18.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <4B731C6F.2080306@bitsavers.org> On 2/10/10 11:37 AM, Rik Bos wrote: > So, what you're saying is, that I should get myself a microcontroller > with an sd-flash and start programming Amigo/CS80 ? > And simply forget about the box I have here ? > And thus the wheel is recreated again. How many times is this going to have to be done before someone open-sources this code? From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Feb 10 13:52:36 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2010 19:52:36 +0000 (GMT) Subject: GOTO-less machines, was: Algol vs Fortran was RE: VHDL vs Verilog In-Reply-To: <14D45465-FE99-42E9-889E-35783D21FFFC@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Feb 9, 10 04:24:52 pm Message-ID: > > On Feb 9, 2010, at 4:21 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > Would you count SKIP instructions as GOTO? > > I would. It just has a fixed (relative) target address. In which case a machine which just steps through memory one location at a time also has an implied goto in each instruction. With a relative address of the next instruction, of course. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Feb 10 13:50:27 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2010 19:50:27 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Algol vs Fortran was RE: VHDL vs Verilog In-Reply-To: <4B71CE55.3000909@jetnet.ab.ca> from "Ben" at Feb 9, 10 02:06:29 pm Message-ID: > > I assume you also don't count any processor where every instruction > > includes the address of the next instruction. There is no explicit jump > > instruction on such a mahcine, becuase every instruction includes a jump. > > That is the same as a STATE machine, we just call the states; ADDRESS n. Any physically-possible digital computer is a finite state machine, surely? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Feb 10 14:24:18 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2010 20:24:18 +0000 (GMT) Subject: hp 9153 floppy & disk In-Reply-To: <4B720B6B.2040904@e-bbes.com> from "e.stiebler" at Feb 9, 10 06:27:07 pm Message-ID: > So, what you're saying is, that I should get myself a microcontroller > with an sd-flash and start programming Amigo/CS80 ? It mioght well be less work. And, BTW, if you get a SS/80, CS/80 or Amigo flahs-memory storage device working, I want one :-). Actually, I want several... > And simply forget about the box I have here ? > ;-) I would look out for the drive, they must turn up sometimes. I have exactly one, alas, in a 9154B. But I can't believe that's the only one still around. As I said, I'd also look out for an HP9133 of some flavour. They use stndard ST412-interface hard drives. Or something like a 7959B, which IIRC uses an ESDI drive internally. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Feb 10 14:57:15 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2010 20:57:15 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Algol vs Fortran was RE: VHDL vs Verilog In-Reply-To: <5ff7577fe027a50bd19e8f2ce8de3748.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com> from "Jeff Walther" at Feb 10, 10 11:19:40 am Message-ID: > > You must have a jump instruction for a loop. > > Weird programing and computing... different topic. > > I'm not sure you would count it as a CPU, but the TI-55 programmable > calculator lacked any type of jump or branch instruction, IIRC. All A number of early--ish programmable calcualtors had programming languages which simplye recorced keystrokes with no jumps or loops or conitionals of any kind. Sometimes there was an implicit 'goto 0' if you tried to execute past the end of memory. And often execution would stop[ if there was an error. Which let to one way to hack a simple loop on such machines. -tony From emu at e-bbes.com Wed Feb 10 15:03:49 2010 From: emu at e-bbes.com (e.stiebler) Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2010 14:03:49 -0700 Subject: hp 9153 floppy & disk In-Reply-To: <4B731C6F.2080306@bitsavers.org> References: <201002101937.o1AJbENf004322@smtp-vbr18.xs4all.nl> <4B731C6F.2080306@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4B731F35.8090409@e-bbes.com> Al Kossow wrote: > On 2/10/10 11:37 AM, Rik Bos wrote: > >> So, what you're saying is, that I should get myself a microcontroller >> with an sd-flash and start programming Amigo/CS80 ? >> And simply forget about the box I have here ? > And thus the wheel is recreated again. > How many times is this going to have to be done before someone open-sources > this code? Don't know, but is there really that much commercial interest in it ? Browsing for a hard drive/floppy for a 9000/300 I saw some offers around $2000, and nothing less than $500 used/not-working on ebay. So, somebody still makes money on it, keeping weird hobbyists of the market. But an interesting project it still is ;-) Cheers From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Feb 10 15:36:47 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2010 16:36:47 -0500 Subject: The value of assembler language programmers [was RE: Algol vs Fortran was RE: VHDL vs Verilog] In-Reply-To: References: <4B72084E.4040501@e-bbes.com> <4B719A4D.16251.1D6F147@cclist.sydex.com> <4B7211CB.6040107@e-bbes.com> <4B72849E.2080608@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Feb 10, 2010 at 2:39 PM, Ian King wrote: >> Ian King wrote: >> > Think about it, if Ken Olsen hadn't been so dismissive of the idea of >> a Personal Computer, we might have had J11-based desktops... >> >> We had. Pro380 ;-) > > No, I mean ones that people actually bought. Remember David Sarnoff's comment, "I think there is a world market for maybe five computers"? Perhaps he was just prescient about the Pro380. ;-) -ethan (Who has one. Are the other four owners already on this list?) From emu at e-bbes.com Wed Feb 10 15:39:49 2010 From: emu at e-bbes.com (e.stiebler) Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2010 14:39:49 -0700 Subject: The value of assembler language programmers [was RE: Algol vs Fortran was RE: VHDL vs Verilog] In-Reply-To: References: <4B72084E.4040501@e-bbes.com> <4B719A4D.16251.1D6F147@cclist.sydex.com> <4B7211CB.6040107@e-bbes.com> <4B72849E.2080608@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: <4B7327A5.3030908@e-bbes.com> Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Wed, Feb 10, 2010 at 2:39 PM, Ian King wrote: >>> Ian King wrote: >>>> Think about it, if Ken Olsen hadn't been so dismissive of the idea of >>> a Personal Computer, we might have had J11-based desktops... >>> >>> We had. Pro380 ;-) >> No, I mean ones that people actually bought. > > Remember David Sarnoff's comment, "I think there is a world market for > maybe five computers"? Perhaps he was just prescient about the > Pro380. ;-) > > -ethan > (Who has one. Are the other four owners already on this list?) Thank you Ethan, very much ! I have more than half of the computer market in my garage ;-) (two pro380, three pro350 ;-)) From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Feb 10 15:40:03 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2010 16:40:03 -0500 Subject: The value of assembler language programmers [was RE: Algol vs Fortran was RE: VHDL vs Verilog] In-Reply-To: References: <4B72084E.4040501@e-bbes.com> <4B719A4D.16251.1D6F147@cclist.sydex.com> <4B7211CB.6040107@e-bbes.com> <4B72849E.2080608@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: <8E895D71-2A2E-406E-824D-2AE6A16967EC@neurotica.com> On Feb 10, 2010, at 4:36 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >>>> Think about it, if Ken Olsen hadn't been so dismissive of the >>>> idea of >>> a Personal Computer, we might have had J11-based desktops... >>> >>> We had. Pro380 ;-) >> >> No, I mean ones that people actually bought. > > Remember David Sarnoff's comment, "I think there is a world market for > maybe five computers"? Perhaps he was just prescient about the > Pro380. ;-) I thought that was Ken Olsen. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Feb 10 15:40:41 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2010 16:40:41 -0500 Subject: The value of assembler language programmers [was RE: Algol vs Fortran was RE: VHDL vs Verilog] In-Reply-To: References: <4B72084E.4040501@e-bbes.com> <4B719A4D.16251.1D6F147@cclist.sydex.com> <4B7211CB.6040107@e-bbes.com> <4B72849E.2080608@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: <5ACD8FBE-69B0-49A5-8D52-9979F11EEE16@neurotica.com> On Feb 10, 2010, at 4:36 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >>> Ian King wrote: >>>> Think about it, if Ken Olsen hadn't been so dismissive of the >>>> idea of >>> a Personal Computer, we might have had J11-based desktops... >>> >>> We had. Pro380 ;-) >> >> No, I mean ones that people actually bought. > > Remember David Sarnoff's comment, "I think there is a world market for > maybe five computers"? Perhaps he was just prescient about the > Pro380. ;-) ...or was it TJ Watson of IBM? I'm pretty sure that was his quote. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cclist at sydex.com Wed Feb 10 15:45:29 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2010 13:45:29 -0800 Subject: The value of assembler language programmers [was RE: Algol vs Fortran was RE: VHDL vs Verilog] In-Reply-To: <5ACD8FBE-69B0-49A5-8D52-9979F11EEE16@neurotica.com> References: , , <5ACD8FBE-69B0-49A5-8D52-9979F11EEE16@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4B72B879.17405.FBD4C0@cclist.sydex.com> On 10 Feb 2010 at 16:40, Dave McGuire wrote: > ...or was it TJ Watson of IBM? I'm pretty sure that was his quote. It's often attributed to Watson, but the attributions are all from the 1980s. There's no solid evidence that he ever said it. --Chuck From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Feb 10 15:50:53 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2010 16:50:53 -0500 Subject: The value of assembler language programmers [was RE: Algol vs Fortran was RE: VHDL vs Verilog] In-Reply-To: <4D22312E-3223-484F-A18B-59E5FFF29AE7@microspot.co.uk> References: <4D22312E-3223-484F-A18B-59E5FFF29AE7@microspot.co.uk> Message-ID: On Wed, Feb 10, 2010 at 3:15 PM, Roger Holmes wrote: > I would like to discuss Moore's law and how it seems to have broken down in recent years. Processor speeds are still increasing but not at the expected rate, but I wonder if the real problem is RAM speed, which does not seemed to have kept up, and no longer seems to be quoted when you buy a computer Even allowing for "main memory" moving to on-chip cache, of all of those "500X over 25 years" multipliers I was mentioning yesterday, RAM speed was not one of them. 250ns DRAMs were available commercially in quantity 25 years ago, as were, IIRC, 200ns. Faster, smaller, more exotic RAMs were also available, but didn't tend to get used for main memory. Someone who knows Crays better than I can confirm, but ISTR the Cray-1 used 150ns chips with something like a 32-way interleave. Screamingly fast until you hit a branch. Today, 7ns memory is common as muck, but 500 picosecond memory is not (which would be about right for 500X the speed of memory from 25 years ago). Of all the things that have gotten faster by leaps and bounds, I/O and memory buses have made a fraction of the gains of raw clock speed and storage densities. We are still much better off (compare Unibus to e-cheapo desktop PCI), but not quite on the same scales. Here's a prediction from 2000 about machines today... http://www.ausairpower.net/OSR-0700.html -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Feb 10 15:53:06 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2010 16:53:06 -0500 Subject: The value of assembler language programmers [was RE: Algol vs Fortran was RE: VHDL vs Verilog] In-Reply-To: <893725.71632.qm@web83903.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <4B72084E.4040501@e-bbes.com> <4B719A4D.16251.1D6F147@cclist.sydex.com> <4B7211CB.6040107@e-bbes.com> <4B72849E.2080608@e-bbes.com> <893725.71632.qm@web83903.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Feb 10, 2010 at 3:00 PM, geoffrey oltmans wrote: > I wonder how successful the likes of the Dec PRO series would have been had they not been astronomically expensive, even compared to the already expensive IBM PC/XT. I had a Pro/350 that my uncle bought brand new, and at the time I think he spent close to $10k on it around 1983ish and it still had a monochrome display. For comparison, a "standard package" color IBM PC/AT (5170) w/dot matrix printer and hard disk (larger than the Pro, admittedly) was $5K at launch in 1985, IIRC. -ethan From RichA at vulcan.com Wed Feb 10 15:54:50 2010 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2010 13:54:50 -0800 Subject: "only 5 computers" [was RE: The value of assembler language programmers] In-Reply-To: <4B72B879.17405.FBD4C0@cclist.sydex.com> References: , , <5ACD8FBE-69B0-49A5-8D52-9979F11EEE16@neurotica.com> <4B72B879.17405.FBD4C0@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: From: Chuck Guzis Sent: Wednesday, February 10, 2010 1:45 PM On 10 Feb 2010 at 16:40, Dave McGuire wrote: >> ...or was it TJ Watson of IBM? I'm pretty sure that was his quote. > It's often attributed to Watson, but the attributions are all from > the 1980s. There's no solid evidence that he ever said it. http://freakonomics.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/04/17/our-daily-bleg-did-ibm-really-see-a-world-market-for-about-five-computers/ The truth, as is so often the case, is more complex than that. According to the source cited above, what Watson reported to the 1953 stockholder's meeting was that their expectation with regard to sales of the 701, when they visited 20 potential customers, was for 5 orders. Instead, they got 18. Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.PDPplanet.org/ http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Feb 10 15:56:02 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2010 16:56:02 -0500 Subject: The value of assembler language programmers [was RE: Algol vs Fortran was RE: VHDL vs Verilog] In-Reply-To: <4B72B879.17405.FBD4C0@cclist.sydex.com> References: <5ACD8FBE-69B0-49A5-8D52-9979F11EEE16@neurotica.com> <4B72B879.17405.FBD4C0@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Feb 10, 2010 at 4:45 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 10 Feb 2010 at 16:40, Dave McGuire wrote: > >> ? ?...or was it TJ Watson of IBM? ?I'm pretty sure that was his quote. > > It's often attributed to Watson, but the attributions are all from > the 1980s. ?There's no solid evidence that he ever said it. I'm pretty sure it was David Sarnoff of RCA, but I don't have any scholarly references to back that up. -ethan From dm561 at torfree.net Wed Feb 10 15:57:37 2010 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2010 16:57:37 -0500 Subject: Dave's walls (was: Selling Calcomp 565 plotter) Message-ID: <01CAAA72.27E20D00@MSE_D03> *************Original Message: Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2010 01:36:01 -0500 From: Dave McGuire Subject: Re: Selling Calcomp 565 plotter I work at home, and one very large room in my house is my office. An entire wall of my office, and most of another wall, is a row of racks: http://www.neurotica.com/misc/wall-o-pdp.jpg There's more behind where I was standing when I took the picture, but you get the idea. -Dave Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL ************Reply: Is that a prayer rug on the floor? Or just there to mop up spilled bits? m ******************************************************************************* From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Feb 10 15:59:07 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2010 16:59:07 -0500 Subject: The value of assembler language programmers [was RE: Algol vs Fortran was RE: VHDL vs Verilog] In-Reply-To: <8E895D71-2A2E-406E-824D-2AE6A16967EC@neurotica.com> References: <4B72084E.4040501@e-bbes.com> <4B719A4D.16251.1D6F147@cclist.sydex.com> <4B7211CB.6040107@e-bbes.com> <4B72849E.2080608@e-bbes.com> <8E895D71-2A2E-406E-824D-2AE6A16967EC@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Feb 10, 2010 at 4:40 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On Feb 10, 2010, at 4:36 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> Remember David Sarnoff's comment, "I think there is a world market for >> maybe five computers"? ?Perhaps he was just prescient about the >> Pro380. ?;-) > > ?I thought that was Ken Olsen. Ken Olsen famously asked who would want a computer at home. If I recall the story correctly, it was in the context of Dave Ahl trying to pitch a hobbyist-grade PDP-8/a as a product offering in the Altair/MITS (pre-Apple/CBM/Tandy) days. -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Feb 10 15:59:48 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2010 16:59:48 -0500 Subject: Dave's walls (was: Selling Calcomp 565 plotter) In-Reply-To: <01CAAA72.27E20D00@MSE_D03> References: <01CAAA72.27E20D00@MSE_D03> Message-ID: > From: Dave McGuire > ? I work at home, and one very large room in my house is my office. > An entire wall of my office, and most of another wall, is a row of > racks: > > ? http://www.neurotica.com/misc/wall-o-pdp.jpg Nice DEC wall! -ethan From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Feb 10 16:02:39 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2010 14:02:39 -0800 (PST) Subject: The value of assembler language programmers [was RE: Algol vs Fortran was RE: VHDL vs Verilog] In-Reply-To: References: <5ACD8FBE-69B0-49A5-8D52-9979F11EEE16@neurotica.com> <4B72B879.17405.FBD4C0@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20100210140137.D61278@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 10 Feb 2010, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Wed, Feb 10, 2010 at 4:45 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > On 10 Feb 2010 at 16:40, Dave McGuire wrote: > >> ? ?...or was it TJ Watson of IBM? ?I'm pretty sure that was his quote. > > It's often attributed to Watson, but the attributions are all from > > the 1980s. ?There's no solid evidence that he ever said it. > I'm pretty sure it was David Sarnoff of RCA, but I don't have any > scholarly references to back that up. Well, the quote was about FIVE computers. Could we attribute it to Watson, Olsen, and Sarnoff? Who were the other two? From RichA at vulcan.com Wed Feb 10 16:01:01 2010 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2010 14:01:01 -0800 Subject: Watson vs. Sarnoff [RE: The value of assembler language programmers] In-Reply-To: References: <5ACD8FBE-69B0-49A5-8D52-9979F11EEE16@neurotica.com> <4B72B879.17405.FBD4C0@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: From: Ethan Dicks Sent: Wednesday, February 10, 2010 1:56 PM > On Wed, Feb 10, 2010 at 4:45 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> On 10 Feb 2010 at 16:40, Dave McGuire wrote: >>> ...or was it TJ Watson of IBM? I'm pretty sure that was his quote. >> It's often attributed to Watson, but the attributions are all from >> the 1980s. There's no solid evidence that he ever said it. > I'm pretty sure it was David Sarnoff of RCA, but I don't have any > scholarly references to back that up. Actually, before I checked a few minutes ago, I thought you were *both* wrong, and that it was a UNIVAC market survey that gave that result. That's what I was told about 40 years ago, anyway... Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.PDPplanet.org/ http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Wed Feb 10 16:05:42 2010 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2010 23:05:42 +0100 Subject: hp 9153 floppy & disk In-Reply-To: <4B731F35.8090409@e-bbes.com> References: <201002101937.o1AJbENf004322@smtp-vbr18.xs4all.nl><4B731C6F.2080306@bitsavers.org> <4B731F35.8090409@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Namens e.stiebler > Verzonden: woensdag 10 februari 2010 22:04 > Aan: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Onderwerp: Re: hp 9153 floppy & disk > > Al Kossow wrote: > > On 2/10/10 11:37 AM, Rik Bos wrote: > > > >> So, what you're saying is, that I should get myself a > microcontroller > >> with an sd-flash and start programming Amigo/CS80 ? > >> And simply forget about the box I have here ? > > > And thus the wheel is recreated again. > > How many times is this going to have to be done before someone > > open-sources this code? > > Don't know, but is there really that much commercial interest in it ? > Browsing for a hard drive/floppy for a 9000/300 I saw some > offers around $2000, and nothing less than $500 > used/not-working on ebay. > > So, somebody still makes money on it, keeping weird hobbyists > of the market. > > But an interesting project it still is ;-) > > Cheers I do have a defective nighthawk if you want to try your luck on it.. (off-list) And two 9153's in service witch I keep. -Rik From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Feb 10 16:06:36 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2010 17:06:36 -0500 Subject: Dave's walls (was: Selling Calcomp 565 plotter) In-Reply-To: <01CAAA72.27E20D00@MSE_D03> References: <01CAAA72.27E20D00@MSE_D03> Message-ID: On Feb 10, 2010, at 4:57 PM, M H Stein wrote: > I work at home, and one very large room in my house is my office. > An entire wall of my office, and most of another wall, is a row of > racks: > > http://www.neurotica.com/misc/wall-o-pdp.jpg > > There's more behind where I was standing when I took the picture, > but you get the idea. > > > ************Reply: > > Is that a prayer rug on the floor? Or just there to mop up spilled > bits? It's a cat rug, but it can easily be pressed into use for either application. ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cclist at sydex.com Wed Feb 10 16:06:59 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2010 14:06:59 -0800 Subject: The value of assembler language programmers [was RE: Algol vs Fortran was RE: VHDL vs Verilog] In-Reply-To: References: , <4B72B879.17405.FBD4C0@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4B72BD83.26743.10F8537@cclist.sydex.com> On 10 Feb 2010 at 16:56, Ethan Dicks wrote: > I'm pretty sure it was David Sarnoff of RCA, but I don't have any > scholarly references to back that up. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_J._Watson under "Famous Misquote". I don't think that General Sarnoff would have recognized a computer if it fell on him. His specialty was stealing IP. --Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Feb 10 16:07:18 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2010 17:07:18 -0500 Subject: Dave's walls (was: Selling Calcomp 565 plotter) In-Reply-To: References: <01CAAA72.27E20D00@MSE_D03> Message-ID: On Feb 10, 2010, at 4:59 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> I work at home, and one very large room in my house is my office. >> An entire wall of my office, and most of another wall, is a row of >> racks: >> >> http://www.neurotica.com/misc/wall-o-pdp.jpg > > Nice DEC wall! Thanks! It's a little different now, as that picture was taken some time ago. I'll take some new pictures soon. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cclist at sydex.com Wed Feb 10 16:11:23 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2010 14:11:23 -0800 Subject: "only 5 computers" [was RE: The value of assembler language programmers] In-Reply-To: References: , <4B72B879.17405.FBD4C0@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4B72BE8B.9983.1138B00@cclist.sydex.com> On 10 Feb 2010 at 13:54, Rich Alderson wrote: > The truth, as is so often the case, is more complex than that. > According to the source cited above, what Watson reported to the 1953 > stockholder's meeting was that their expectation with regard to sales > of the 701, when they visited 20 potential customers, was for 5 > orders. Instead, they got 18. And taken in its context (even allowing for the differing quote in his autobiography), is a very different kettle of fish. Expectations for 5 orders for a new "paper tiger" machine on a single sales junket was quite optimistic for the time. "The IBM Archives Frequently Asked Questions asks if he said in the 1950s that he foresaw a market potential for only five electronic computers. The document says no, but quotes his son and then IBM President Thomas J. Watson, Jr., at the annual IBM stockholders meeting, April 28, 1953, as speaking about the IBM 701 Electronic Data Processing Machine, which it identifies as "the company's first production computer designed for scientific calculations". He said that "IBM had developed a paper plan for such a machine and took this paper plan across the country to some 20 concerns that we thought could use such a machine. I would like to tell you that the machine rents for between $12,000 and $18,000 a month, so it was not the type of thing that could be sold from place to place. But, as a result of our trip, on which we expected to get orders for five machines, we came home with orders for 18." Watson, Jr., later gave a slightly different version of the story in his autobiography, where he said the initial market sampling indicated 11 firm takers and 10 more prospective orders." --Chuck From oltmansg at bellsouth.net Wed Feb 10 16:16:07 2010 From: oltmansg at bellsouth.net (geoffrey oltmans) Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2010 14:16:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: The value of assembler language programmers [was RE: Algol vs Fortran was RE: VHDL vs Verilog] In-Reply-To: References: <4B72084E.4040501@e-bbes.com> <4B719A4D.16251.1D6F147@cclist.sydex.com> <4B7211CB.6040107@e-bbes.com> <4B72849E.2080608@e-bbes.com> <893725.71632.qm@web83903.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <309509.1433.qm@web83908.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Yep... I'd say doomed from that perspective. Still, I remember the Pro/350 fondly. Nice machine. There's a pretty cool promotional/documentary type video of Digital and the Pro series. Pretty funny in retrospect. ________________________________ From: Ethan Dicks To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Sent: Wed, February 10, 2010 3:53:06 PM Subject: Re: The value of assembler language programmers [was RE: Algol vs Fortran was RE: VHDL vs Verilog] On Wed, Feb 10, 2010 at 3:00 PM, geoffrey oltmans wrote: > I wonder how successful the likes of the Dec PRO series would have been had they not been astronomically expensive, even compared to the already expensive IBM PC/XT. I had a Pro/350 that my uncle bought brand new, and at the time I think he spent close to $10k on it around 1983ish and it still had a monochrome display. For comparison, a "standard package" color IBM PC/AT (5170) w/dot matrix printer and hard disk (larger than the Pro, admittedly) was $5K at launch in 1985, IIRC. -ethan From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Feb 10 16:24:15 2010 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2010 14:24:15 -0800 (PST) Subject: Dave's walls (was: Selling Calcomp 565 plotter) In-Reply-To: References: <01CAAA72.27E20D00@MSE_D03> Message-ID: On Wed, 10 Feb 2010, Dave McGuire wrote: > On Feb 10, 2010, at 4:57 PM, M H Stein wrote: >> I work at home, and one very large room in my house is my office. >> An entire wall of my office, and most of another wall, is a row of >> racks: >> >> http://www.neurotica.com/misc/wall-o-pdp.jpg >> *wistful sigh* g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Feb 10 16:26:57 2010 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2010 15:26:57 -0700 Subject: Dave's walls In-Reply-To: References: <01CAAA72.27E20D00@MSE_D03> Message-ID: <4B7332B1.6050308@jetnet.ab.ca> Dave McGuire wrote: > On Feb 10, 2010, at 4:57 PM, M H Stein wrote: >> I work at home, and one very large room in my house is my office. >> An entire wall of my office, and most of another wall, is a row of >> racks: >> >> http://www.neurotica.com/misc/wall-o-pdp.jpg >> >> There's more behind where I was standing when I took the picture, >> but you get the idea. >> >> >> ************Reply: >> >> Is that a prayer rug on the floor? Or just there to mop up spilled bits? > > It's a cat rug, but it can easily be pressed into use for either > application. ;) > > -Dave DEC -- HOME COMPUTER WALLS FLOORS AND ROOF MADE FROM PDP COMPONENTS AND RACKS: RUG OPTIONAL From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Wed Feb 10 16:28:25 2010 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2010 14:28:25 -0800 Subject: 5 computers quote / was Re: The value of assembler.. References: <5ACD8FBE-69B0-49A5-8D52-9979F11EEE16@neurotica.com> <4B72B879.17405.FBD4C0@cclist.sydex.com> <20100210140137.D61278@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4B733309.140802DA@cs.ubc.ca> Fred Cisin wrote: > > On Wed, 10 Feb 2010, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > On Wed, Feb 10, 2010 at 4:45 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > > On 10 Feb 2010 at 16:40, Dave McGuire wrote: > > >> ? ?...or was it TJ Watson of IBM? ?I'm pretty sure that was his quote. > > > It's often attributed to Watson, but the attributions are all from > > > the 1980s. ?There's no solid evidence that he ever said it. > > I'm pretty sure it was David Sarnoff of RCA, but I don't have any > > scholarly references to back that up. > > Well, the quote was about FIVE computers. > Could we attribute it to Watson, Olsen, and Sarnoff? > Who were the other two? I too have mostly heard it attributed to Watson, years ago I had the impression it was Howard Aiken, though that may be just my mistake - don't have a reference. From drb at msu.edu Wed Feb 10 17:01:23 2010 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2010 18:01:23 -0500 Subject: Dave's walls (was: Selling Calcomp 565 plotter) In-Reply-To: (Your message of Wed, 10 Feb 2010 17:07:18 EST.) References: <01CAAA72.27E20D00@MSE_D03> Message-ID: <201002102301.o1AN1NCh008159@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > I work at home, and one very large room in my house is my office. An > entire wall of my office, and most of another wall, is a row of > racks: > http://www.neurotica.com/misc/wall-o-pdp.jpg Having contended with routine 600V FPL switching spikes (they even admitted to it) and minicomputers at a customer site once upon a time, I'm curious -- what do you do for power conditioning? Any issues? De From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Feb 10 17:09:37 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2010 18:09:37 -0500 Subject: Dave's walls (was: Selling Calcomp 565 plotter) In-Reply-To: <201002102301.o1AN1NCh008159@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> References: <01CAAA72.27E20D00@MSE_D03> <201002102301.o1AN1NCh008159@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: On Feb 10, 2010, at 6:01 PM, Dennis Boone wrote: >> I work at home, and one very large room in my house is my office. An >> entire wall of my office, and most of another wall, is a row of >> racks: > >> http://www.neurotica.com/misc/wall-o-pdp.jpg > > Having contended with routine 600V FPL switching spikes (they even > admitted to it) and minicomputers at a customer site once upon a time, > I'm curious -- what do you do for power conditioning? Any issues? All of my modern hardware runs from very well-protected UPSen and a big whole-house MOV. My classic stuff stays unplugged unless I'm actively using it. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Wed Feb 10 17:10:17 2010 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2010 15:10:17 -0800 (PST) Subject: Dave's walls (was: Selling Calcomp 565 plotter) In-Reply-To: References: <01CAAA72.27E20D00@MSE_D03> Message-ID: On Wed, 10 Feb 2010, Dave McGuire wrote: > On Feb 10, 2010, at 4:57 PM, M H Stein wrote: >> I work at home, and one very large room in my house is my office. >> An entire wall of my office, and most of another wall, is a row of >> racks: >> >> http://www.neurotica.com/misc/wall-o-pdp.jpg >> >> There's more behind where I was standing when I took the picture, >> but you get the idea. >> >> >> ************Reply: >> >> Is that a prayer rug on the floor? Or just there to mop up spilled bits? > > It's a cat rug, but it can easily be pressed into use for either > application. ;) For worshipping Bastet? -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Feb 10 17:16:02 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2010 18:16:02 -0500 Subject: Dave's walls (was: Selling Calcomp 565 plotter) In-Reply-To: References: <01CAAA72.27E20D00@MSE_D03> Message-ID: <82F55E20-F398-4FC8-A93E-81C2CA8F1796@neurotica.com> On Feb 10, 2010, at 6:10 PM, David Griffith wrote: >>> I work at home, and one very large room in my house is my office. >>> An entire wall of my office, and most of another wall, is a row of >>> racks: >>> >>> http://www.neurotica.com/misc/wall-o-pdp.jpg >>> >>> There's more behind where I was standing when I took the picture, >>> but you get the idea. >>> ************Reply: >>> Is that a prayer rug on the floor? Or just there to mop up >>> spilled bits? >> >> It's a cat rug, but it can easily be pressed into use for either >> application. ;) > > For worshipping Bastet? *meow* But don't laugh, one of my internal hostnames (a big Sun) is bastet. ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Feb 10 17:26:20 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2010 18:26:20 -0500 Subject: Algol vs Fortran was RE: VHDL vs Verilog In-Reply-To: References: <4b6fd060.26695.66eba@cclist.sydex.com> <6ed9562426e.0000058dn0body.h0me@inbox.com> <4b700d62.20109.f4bca6@cclist.sydex.com> <6F365783BCA.000005DDn0body.h0me@inbox.com> <0A82C779-29AA-41C6-BAF2-C1571B808D0C@neurotica.com> <4B712670.3050201@mail.msu.edu> <16E38B1D-0E55-4287-9DEE-CFE9AD76D686@neurotica.com> <4B71AD23.8040304@mail.msu.edu> <4B71B532.1070007@mail.msu.edu> <011719EC-CAE5-4482-A704-F2359BB17E52@mail.msu.edu> <6D2F1464-34E0-4601-AE47-7AD28DE28542@neurotica.com> <8FEBF117-CA86-46DB-A611-DBFCBE392015@mail.msu.edu> <294DDFB2-7746-4C58-BC7C-FBA00EEB2243@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <3C115E9B-AC23-401F-91BD-1B25187FDF5E@neurotica.com> On Feb 9, 2010, at 6:12 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > You can indeed use C#, via the Mono project. Generics are a very > basic form of C++ templates that are good for creating generic > containers, and that's about it. C++ templates are considerably > more involved, and metaprogramming tricks are used to do all manner > of insane things at compile time. At a very basic level, the two > are the same. It's like saying a Yugo and a Maserati are > equivalent because they are both cars. (yes, you can use analogies > here :) Ok, I understand that a bit better now. I will go read up on generics a bit. Thanks for the clarification. >>>> It may be, at least in part, speculation...but with lots of >>>> experience to back it up. Quite simply, almost everything I've >>>> seen written in C++ and Java (even with native compilation) is >>>> slow, and most everything I've seen written in C, assembler, and >>>> Forth is fast. >>> >>> I could argue that I've also seen the exact opposite, but I'm >>> not sure what that would prove. >> >> You have? Seriously? > > Yep. Again, it's a case of bad programmers doing stupid things. Well ok, but is that the rule or the exception? ;) >> Playing music, playing video files, telnetting, sshing, editing, >> compiling, browsing the web, etc etc etc. The apps are a bit >> prettier now, certainly moreso than with fvwm, but I'd happily >> live without that. > > See, here's where I see a disconnect; you are doing the same > *class* of thing, but you're not really doing the same thing. > Programs have gotten more complex because people want more from > their software. Sure, I see where you're coming from, and I agree. But I'm actually doing the same thing. With the exception of Firefox and Mail.app, the stuff I run is all pretty lightweight. I wish Mail.app were a bit lighter, in particular, because I, even being a VERY heavy email user, barely scratch the surface of [most of] its [pointless] features. > Regardless of whether Firefox 3.5 was written in assembly or C++ > you'd never hope to run it on your IPX. I just think you are > blaming the wrong thing (or just blaming one thing) for the > performance degradations you are perceiving. OO overhead adds some > not imperceivable overhead; so do each of extensibility, > abstraction, support for "modern standards" (CSS, JavaScript, XML) > ui theming, support for "advanced" desktop metaphors, etc... Code > reuse and abstractions also bring overhead; these exist even in C, > but the overhead is worth it in terms of maintenance and usability > (from a programming and a user perspective.) I do see where you're coming from. Perhaps I give OO too much blame, but I stand by my accusations...it does deserve a lot of it, in my opinion. It wasn't until very recent releases of common C compilers, for example, that a simple "hello world" program in C++ generated a 600KB (yes, six hundred kilobyte) binary. I've demonstrated that (along with its 4KB C equivalent) many times. I was, admittedly, pleased to see that this particular brand of idiocy has been addressed. I have no idea what was in that damn binary. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mwichary at gmail.com Wed Feb 10 17:31:15 2010 From: mwichary at gmail.com (Marcin Wichary) Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2010 15:31:15 -0800 Subject: 5 computers quote / was Re: The value of assembler.. In-Reply-To: <4B733309.140802DA@cs.ubc.ca> References: <5ACD8FBE-69B0-49A5-8D52-9979F11EEE16@neurotica.com> <4B72B879.17405.FBD4C0@cclist.sydex.com> <20100210140137.D61278@shell.lmi.net> <4B733309.140802DA@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <1debc0351002101531w56dcd902s704a2bd6521e9ac8@mail.gmail.com> > > I too have mostly heard it attributed to Watson, years ago I had the > impression > it was Howard Aiken, though that may be just my mistake - don't have a > reference. > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_J._Watson#Famous_misquote Marcin From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Feb 10 17:30:18 2010 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2010 23:30:18 -0000 Subject: Poor programming (was Re: Algol vs Fortran) References: <4b6fd060.26695.66eba@cclist.sydex.com> <6F365783BCA.000005DDn0body.h0me@inbox.com> <0A82C779-29AA-41C6-BAF2-C1571B808D0C@neurotica.com> <201002090914.28688.pat@computer-refuge.org><3690A970-A290-4EC2-A8E3-11016BB120A4@neurotica.com> <4B72E4DD.1060303@arachelian.com> Message-ID: <016401caaaa9$39828350$78fdf93e@user8459cef6fa> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ray Arachelian" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Wednesday, February 10, 2010 4:54 PM Subject: Re: Algol vs Fortran was RE: VHDL vs Verilog > > Some of the stuff amazes me. We now have an app at $WORK that's an in > memory XML db - the data in memory is just a plain XML file as far as we > can tell - not tokenized and structured. Our db is ~100GB in size and > growing. Worse yet, this db "engine" is not multithreaded. Also, it > takes about an hour to save or load the db from/to disk. Of course this > is on a clustered system for high availability. But it takes more than > an hour to do a failover. > > The previous version required you to load X copies of the db in memory > if you wanted to do X things with it at once! So a 384GB - yes GB > machine with 32 AMD 2GHz cores just isn't enough for this thing. > They've fixed this a bit, but nowhere near what it should be. > > Like all poorly written apps, this one crashes occasionally. Care to > guess what happens to the poor file system when it tries to write a > 300GB core file to disk that's far smaller? :-( > That is shocking. I may not be writing professional programs (thank god, no time limits or other pressures), but when I do write software (usually for the Amiga) I always include error checks. When attempting to save a file to disk, I always check to make sure that there is enough space on the target device for the file. I had Windows Media Player crash on me the other week and jammed CPU usage at 100% :( Not great on my laptop, as the only way to shut it down is to pull the plug out of the mains and then pull out the battery (timed carefully - thank god for the HD access light!). It was just as it was about to reload in the music file (something else I hate - why re-load in the music file you were just playing, especially when it's not a large file (<5MB)?!!) after reaching the end when the problem occured. I had selected the file to play in a slightly different way to normal, so thankfully I can avoid that problem again quite easily :) I'm certainly no expert at programming (good at BASIC and beginner at 68K ASM), but if you don't sort out the easy bugs (or put in safety nets) how on earth can you expect to catch the hard-to-find ones?! Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Feb 10 17:40:58 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2010 15:40:58 -0800 (PST) Subject: Algol vs Fortran was RE: VHDL vs Verilog In-Reply-To: <3C115E9B-AC23-401F-91BD-1B25187FDF5E@neurotica.com> References: <4b6fd060.26695.66eba@cclist.sydex.com> <6ed9562426e.0000058dn0body.h0me@inbox.com> <4b700d62.20109.f4bca6@cclist.sydex.com> <6F365783BCA.000005DDn0body.h0me@inbox.com> <0A82C779-29AA-41C6-BAF2-C1571B808D0C@neurotica.com> <4B712670.3050201@mail.msu.edu> <16E38B1D-0E55-4287-9DEE-CFE9AD76D686@neurotica.com> <4B71AD23.8040304@mail.msu.edu> <4B71B532.1070007@mail.msu.edu> <011719EC-CAE5-4482-A704-F2359BB17E52@mail.msu.edu> <6D2F1464-34E0-4601-AE47-7AD28DE28542@neurotica.com> <8FEBF117-CA86-46DB-A611-DBFCBE392015@mail.msu.edu> <294DDFB2-7746-4C58-BC7C-FBA00EEB2243@neurotica.com> <3C115E9B-AC23-401F-91BD-1B25187FDF5E@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20100210152854.A63617@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 10 Feb 2010, Dave McGuire wrote: > I do see where you're coming from. Perhaps I give OO too much > blame, but I stand by my accusations...it does deserve a lot of it, > in my opinion. It wasn't until very recent releases of common C > compilers, for example, that a simple "hello world" program in C++ > generated a 600KB (yes, six hundred kilobyte) binary. I've > demonstrated that (along with its 4KB C equivalent) many times. I > was, admittedly, pleased to see that this particular brand of idiocy > has been addressed. I have no idea what was in that damn binary. But, don't you WANT to have a "division by zero" exception handler built into your "Hello world" program? When I taught C, I made the students use multiple compilers, including command line (DeSmet/PCC, GCC) and IDE (TurboC, Microsoft C++), and compare the results. The other teacher, teaching another section, used Microsoft C++, and spent the entire semester on how to use the compiler, and never really got around to any C. At the end of the semester, my students could write simple C programs, and could figure out how to use other compilers. His students could use the Microsoft compiler (without understanding what they were doing), but couldn't create any programs on their own! (He gave all A's!) -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cclist at sydex.com Wed Feb 10 17:45:58 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2010 15:45:58 -0800 Subject: The value of assembler language programmers [was RE: Algol vs Fortran was RE: VHDL vs Verilog] In-Reply-To: References: , <8E895D71-2A2E-406E-824D-2AE6A16967EC@neurotica.com>, Message-ID: <4B72D4B6.19647.16A22D9@cclist.sydex.com> On 10 Feb 2010 at 16:59, Ethan Dicks wrote: > Ken Olsen famously asked who would want a computer at home. If I > recall the story correctly, it was in the context of Dave Ahl trying > to pitch a hobbyist-grade PDP-8/a as a product offering in the > Altair/MITS (pre-Apple/CBM/Tandy) days. He wasn't alone. I remember asking an EE prof who was teaching logic circuits what he thought about the possibilities of a computer on a chip (ICs were fairly new stuff then). He looked at me like I'd suggested that everyone should have their own personal cyclotron. "What good would that be?" and he dismissed it with a wave of his hand. Personally, I still want a computer that will paint my house and repair the fence in the backyard. --Chuck From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Feb 10 18:02:27 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2010 16:02:27 -0800 (PST) Subject: The value of assembler language programmers [was RE: Algol vs Fortran was RE: VHDL vs Verilog] In-Reply-To: from Ethan Dicks at "Feb 10, 10 04:36:47 pm" Message-ID: <201002110002.o1B02Reb011584@floodgap.com> > Remember David Sarnoff's comment, "I think there is a world market for > maybe five computers"? Perhaps he was just prescient about the > Pro380. ;-) Those would be fun to get. And probably more manageable than a real PDP-11. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- You only live twice. ------------------------------------------------------- From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Feb 10 18:08:30 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2010 16:08:30 -0800 (PST) Subject: The value of assembler language programmers [was RE: Algol vs Fortran was RE: VHDL vs Verilog] In-Reply-To: <4B72D4B6.19647.16A22D9@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <8E895D71-2A2E-406E-824D-2AE6A16967EC@neurotica.com>, <4B72D4B6.19647.16A22D9@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20100210160048.I63617@shell.lmi.net> At UC Berkeley, ~15 years ago, Clancy and Harvey took over the lower division undergraduate CS instruction. They used Scheme (a Lisp derivative), because "recursion is the only possible way to solve a problem with more than one independent variable" (I didn't know that nested loops were "impossible"), and they declared, "Nobody uses assembly language any more, nor ever will again!" UC Berkeley was ONCE a good place to learn CS. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred (a nobody) From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Wed Feb 10 18:16:51 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Thu, 11 Feb 2010 00:16:51 +0000 Subject: Hostnames and machine names (was Re: Dave's walls) In-Reply-To: <82F55E20-F398-4FC8-A93E-81C2CA8F1796@neurotica.com> References: <01CAAA72.27E20D00@MSE_D03> <82F55E20-F398-4FC8-A93E-81C2CA8F1796@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4B734C73.8010407@philpem.me.uk> Dave McGuire wrote: > On Feb 10, 2010, at 6:10 PM, David Griffith wrote: >> >> For worshipping Bastet? > > *meow* > > But don't laugh, one of my internal hostnames (a big Sun) is bastet. ;) Nice.. I have yet to find a religion that worships a chinchilla god, though. Little known fact about me: I have four pet chinchillas (two male kits, one male adult, one female adult), and have bred them in the past -- I'm probably more a dog/cat lover than a chinchilla lover, but that doesn't stop them being damn fun to play with... though they're less fun when they escape and have to be recaptured! Photos are on flickr if anyone's interested (www.flickr.com/philpem). Hostnames on my LAN are pretty standard.. - wolf: Firewall - cheetah: Desktop PC (this hostname follows my current fastest PC) - cougar: Eee PC netbook - stargate: ADSL modem / Ethernet bridge - pandora: Brother's Windows 7 PC. (*spit*). The name is (according to him) from the planet in the movie "Avatar". Although I'd like to think it's more because installing Win7 on the thing was like opening Pandora's Box. "You have no idea of the terror you hath wrought..." and all that. - wreckgar: Old K6-III box with a broken CMOS chip (won't store settings even with a fresh battery). Guess where the name comes from. After that things get a lot more plain... - wireless: WLAN access point. - laserprint: Whadd'ya know, a laser printer. (Kyocera FS-C5200dn) - mum-laptop: Take a wild guess. - dad-laptop: Take an even wilder guess. My webhosting server is called Daedalus, after the warship in Stargate SG-1. Previously I've been root on amun, serenity and executor, but those were all servers owned by a friend. I named "serenity" (after the ship in the TV series Firefly and in hope that it would have less hardware issues than amun and executor); the other two were named by the aforementioned friend. I do know someone who named his servers after curse words. Two DNS servers: "f*ck" and "sh*t", an email server called "bullsh*t" and a web server called "jacksh*t". He was a strange guy... And then there was the guy who called a server "qwertyuiop". His reason: "well it's easy to remember, and even easier to type!" Didn't quite work out when his DNS server fell over and he had to remember the IP address :) -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From hachti at hachti.de Wed Feb 10 18:39:33 2010 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Thu, 11 Feb 2010 01:39:33 +0100 Subject: Docs found: Honeywell Series 600/6000, DTSS Message-ID: <4B7351C5.1040506@hachti.de> Hi Folks, I'm currently saving some documention. If it's ok I'll post what I found so far. Bit by bit. I'd like to hear comments on the stuff and estimates how and if it would be important to save the stuff. Now and today I have some Honeywell stuff from 1972/73: Honeywell Series 600/6000: ************************** Time Sharing Applications Library Guide Volume I - Mathematics DA43, Rev. 0 Volume II - Time Sharing DA44, Rev. 0 Volume II - Time Sharing, Addendum A DA44A, Rev. 0 Volume III - Industry DA45, Rev. 2 Volume III - Industry, Addendum A DA45A, Rev. 2 Volume III - Industry, Addendum B DA45B, Rev. 2 Volume IV - Industry DA46, Rev. 1 FORTRAN Manual BJ67, Rev. 1 JOVIAL Language Manual BS06 AGOL Manual BS11, Rev. 0 Biomedical (BMD) Statistical Programs BP82, Rev.0 (supercedes CPB-1183A) DTSS - Dartmouth Time-Sharing System (Dartmouth College, Hanover, New Hampshire): ********************************************************************************* (good photocopies) DTSS Software Product Information (Draft copy) (C) 1973 DTSS, Inc. DTSS APL, Preliminary Version By Steve Poulsen, Dartmouth College (C) 1973 Trustees of Dartmouth College DTSS - The Dartmouth Time-Sharing System 7/26/72 DTSS User's Guide September 1972 (C) 1972 Trustees of Dartmouth College Catalog of Program Library in the Dartmouth Time-Sharing System - User's guide to the programming library (C) 1972 Trustees of Dartmouth College Best wishes, Philipp :-) -- http://www.hachti.de From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Feb 10 18:48:16 2010 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2010 16:48:16 -0800 (PST) Subject: Docs found: Honeywell Series 600/6000, DTSS In-Reply-To: <4B7351C5.1040506@hachti.de> References: <4B7351C5.1040506@hachti.de> Message-ID: On Thu, 11 Feb 2010, Philipp Hachtmann wrote: > Hi Folks, > I'm currently saving some documention. If it's ok I'll post what I found so > far. Bit by bit. > I'd like to hear comments on the stuff and estimates how and if it would be > important to save the stuff. > > Now and today I have some Honeywell stuff from 1972/73: > > DTSS - Dartmouth Time-Sharing System (Dartmouth College, Hanover, New > Hampshire): Um... DROOL!!!! I for one wouldn't mind seeing scans of this stuff. I'm preetty sure the Honeywell stuff isn't on Bitsavers, I'm not sure about the DTSS doc's. Zane From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Wed Feb 10 19:02:59 2010 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2010 17:02:59 -0800 Subject: 5 computers quote / was Re: The value of assembler.. References: <5ACD8FBE-69B0-49A5-8D52-9979F11EEE16@neurotica.com> <4B72B879.17405.FBD4C0@cclist.sydex.com> <20100210140137.D61278@shell.lmi.net> <4B733309.140802DA@cs.ubc.ca> <1debc0351002101531w56dcd902s704a2bd6521e9ac8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B735744.25F0010E@cs.ubc.ca> Marcin Wichary wrote: > > > I too have mostly heard it attributed to Watson, years ago I had the > > impression > > it was Howard Aiken, though that may be just my mistake - don't have a > > reference. > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_J._Watson#Famous_misquote > > Marcin No, I meant I have no reference to attribute it to Aiken, just a limpid memory that I read it somewhere. From dkelvey at hotmail.com Wed Feb 10 19:29:27 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2010 17:29:27 -0800 Subject: logic analyzers In-Reply-To: <4B735744.25F0010E@cs.ubc.ca> References: , , <5ACD8FBE-69B0-49A5-8D52-9979F11EEE16@neurotica.com>, <4B72B879.17405.FBD4C0@cclist.sydex.com>, , <20100210140137.D61278@shell.lmi.net> <4B733309.140802DA@cs.ubc.ca>, <1debc0351002101531w56dcd902s704a2bd6521e9ac8@mail.gmail.com>, <4B735744.25F0010E@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: Hi I'm trying to find information on the logic pods used with the logic analyzer I just got. It is a Nicolet 700 series that uses the Paratronics Pods. It uses Model 51A and Model 80 probes. Does anyone have these that I can look at or have manuals/schematics for these? Thanks Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Your E-mail and More On-the-Go. Get Windows Live Hotmail Free. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/201469229/direct/01/ From hachti at hachti.de Wed Feb 10 19:37:50 2010 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Thu, 11 Feb 2010 02:37:50 +0100 Subject: Docs found: Honeywell 800, Facit PE1000, Rank Xerox Message-ID: <4B735F6E.2010802@hachti.de> (see first posting) Honeywell 800: ************** Honeywell 800 transistorized Data Processing System Programmers' Reference Manual DSI-31A, 1962 FACIT PE1000 Paper Tape Reader: ******************************* Spare Parts UP 631001, 1.10.63 Manual UP 630201, 1.4.63 Technical Description (brochure) Rank Xerox: *********** Rank Xerox EXTENDED ALGOL-60 19 05 72 C, May 1972 Sigma 5/9 Computers Control Program-Five (CP-V) Sigma 6/7/9 Computers Time-Sharing Manual 90 09 07 E, June 1973 Xerox Operating System (XOS) Sigma 6/7/9 Computers Batch Processing Reference Manual 90 17 65 A, December 1971 Xerox Universal Time-Sharing System (UTS) Sigma 6/7/9 Computers Time-Sharing User's Guide 90 16 92 A, April 1971 -- http://www.hachti.de From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Feb 10 19:42:55 2010 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2010 17:42:55 -0800 Subject: Docs found: Honeywell Series 600/6000, DTSS In-Reply-To: References: <4B7351C5.1040506@hachti.de> Message-ID: <4B73609F.3000101@bitsavers.org> On 2/10/10 4:48 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: > > > I'm > preetty sure the Honeywell stuff isn't on Bitsavers, I'm not sure about the > DTSS doc's. > None of this is. It would be good to preserve it. I do have some docs from the DTSS company, but haven't had time to scan it yet. There was also a hardcover book written about that system. From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Feb 10 19:44:08 2010 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2010 17:44:08 -0800 Subject: logic analyzers In-Reply-To: References: , , <5ACD8FBE-69B0-49A5-8D52-9979F11EEE16@neurotica.com>, <4B72B879.17405.FBD4C0@cclist.sydex.com>, , <20100210140137.D61278@shell.lmi.net> <4B733309.140802DA@cs.ubc.ca>, <1debc0351002101531w56dcd902s704a2bd6521e9ac8@mail.gmail.com>, <4B735744.25F0010E@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <4B7360E8.3030109@bitsavers.org> On 2/10/10 5:29 PM, dwight elvey wrote: > > Hi > I'm trying to find information on the logic pods used > with the logic analyzer I just got. > It is a Nicolet 700 series that uses the Paratronics Pods. > It uses Model 51A and Model 80 probes. > Does anyone have these that I can look at or have > manuals/schematics for these? > Dig around Weird Stuff. I thought I saw some there within the last year. Is this the one that ran CP/M ? From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Feb 10 19:46:05 2010 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2010 17:46:05 -0800 Subject: logic analyzers In-Reply-To: References: , , <5ACD8FBE-69B0-49A5-8D52-9979F11EEE16@neurotica.com>, <4B72B879.17405.FBD4C0@cclist.sydex.com>, , <20100210140137.D61278@shell.lmi.net> <4B733309.140802DA@cs.ubc.ca>, <1debc0351002101531w56dcd902s704a2bd6521e9ac8@mail.gmail.com>, <4B735744.25F0010E@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <4B73615D.70904@bitsavers.org> On 2/10/10 5:29 PM, dwight elvey wrote: > > Hi > I'm trying to find information on the logic pods used > with the logic analyzer I just got. > It is a Nicolet 700 series that uses the Paratronics Pods. Just checked my scanning backlog, and I have manuals for the NPC-700 and NPC-764 They were nice analyzers. Used one for the first project I worked on at Apple. From dkelvey at hotmail.com Wed Feb 10 19:51:12 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2010 17:51:12 -0800 Subject: logic analyzers In-Reply-To: <4B73615D.70904@bitsavers.org> References: , , , , <5ACD8FBE-69B0-49A5-8D52-9979F11EEE16@neurotica.com>, , <4B72B879.17405.FBD4C0@cclist.sydex.com>, , , , <20100210140137.D61278@shell.lmi.net> <4B733309.140802DA@cs.ubc.ca>, , <1debc0351002101531w56dcd902s704a2bd6521e9ac8@mail.gmail.com>, , <4B735744.25F0010E@cs.ubc.ca>, , <4B73615D.70904@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: Hi Al Weirdstuff is where I got the main unit ( actually a 748, diskless version ). I got it at auction but didn't get any probes. Did you see probes and if so, where would I look for such things? I'd be interested in a copy of the manuals, especially if they have schematic but even operation would be nice to have. Yes, this is the box that had a CP/M based OS ( when used with the disk models, like the 764 ). Dwight > Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2010 17:46:05 -0800 > From: aek at bitsavers.org > To: > Subject: Re: logic analyzers > > On 2/10/10 5:29 PM, dwight elvey wrote: > > > > Hi > > I'm trying to find information on the logic pods used > > with the logic analyzer I just got. > > It is a Nicolet 700 series that uses the Paratronics Pods. > > Just checked my scanning backlog, and I have manuals for the NPC-700 > and NPC-764 > > They were nice analyzers. Used one for the first project I worked on > at Apple. > _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail: Trusted email with powerful SPAM protection. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/201469227/direct/01/ From hachti at hachti.de Wed Feb 10 19:57:06 2010 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Thu, 11 Feb 2010 02:57:06 +0100 Subject: Docs found: Honeywell Series 600/6000, DTSS In-Reply-To: <4B73609F.3000101@bitsavers.org> References: <4B7351C5.1040506@hachti.de> <4B73609F.3000101@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4B7363F2.40902@hachti.de> Hi Al, I'll post my list bit by bit - as I get through the stuff. Will send you the whole list when I have possibility to scan. Would be great if you then could check what you consider important to scan. I just acquired a Ricoh Aficio 2232c on eBay for scanning purposes. But still no clue how to get it home... Best wishes, Philipp -- http://www.hachti.de From cclist at sydex.com Wed Feb 10 20:23:39 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2010 18:23:39 -0800 Subject: logic analyzers In-Reply-To: References: , <4B73615D.70904@bitsavers.org>, Message-ID: <4B72F9AB.8852.1FA803E@cclist.sydex.com> On 10 Feb 2010 at 17:51, dwight elvey wrote: > Weirdstuff is where I got the main unit ( actually a 748, diskless > version ). I got it at auction but didn't get any probes. Did you see > probes and if so, where would I look for such things? I'd be interested > in a copy of the manuals, especially if they have schematic but even > operation would be nice to have. Yes, this is the box that had a CP/M > based OS ( when used with the disk models, like the 764 ). Not to rain on your parade, but I've long been fascinated by the numerous offerings for logic analyzers on eBay--all without pods--and all advertised as "working". I've wondered if there's an underground smuggling ring for those things were they all end up in Paraguay. Or maybe the bottom of the Sargasso Sea is carpeted with discarded logic analyzer pods... --Chuck From dkelvey at hotmail.com Wed Feb 10 22:02:54 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2010 20:02:54 -0800 Subject: logic analyzers In-Reply-To: <4B72F9AB.8852.1FA803E@cclist.sydex.com> References: , , <4B73615D.70904@bitsavers.org>, , , <4B72F9AB.8852.1FA803E@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: Hi Chuck I think they are just the right size to fall into some black hole someplace and poof, they're gone. I didn't pay anything like ebay prices at least. Dwight > From: cclist at sydex.com > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2010 18:23:39 -0800 > Subject: RE: logic analyzers > > On 10 Feb 2010 at 17:51, dwight elvey wrote: > > > Weirdstuff is where I got the main unit ( actually a 748, diskless > > version ). I got it at auction but didn't get any probes. Did you see > > probes and if so, where would I look for such things? I'd be interested > > in a copy of the manuals, especially if they have schematic but even > > operation would be nice to have. Yes, this is the box that had a CP/M > > based OS ( when used with the disk models, like the 764 ). > > Not to rain on your parade, but I've long been fascinated by the > numerous offerings for logic analyzers on eBay--all without pods--and > all advertised as "working". > > I've wondered if there's an underground smuggling ring for those > things were they all end up in Paraguay. Or maybe the bottom of the > Sargasso Sea is carpeted with discarded logic analyzer pods... > > --Chuck > > > > _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail: Free, trusted and rich email service. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/201469228/direct/01/ From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Wed Feb 10 21:49:34 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Thu, 11 Feb 2010 01:49:34 -0200 Subject: logic analyzers References: , <4B73615D.70904@bitsavers.org>, <4B72F9AB.8852.1FA803E@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <06e701caaad0$9498c5c0$0101a8c0@Alexandre> If you find a set of 4 P6490 from tektronix, please remember you nice friend here :oP ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chuck Guzis" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, February 11, 2010 12:23 AM Subject: RE: logic analyzers > On 10 Feb 2010 at 17:51, dwight elvey wrote: > >> Weirdstuff is where I got the main unit ( actually a 748, diskless >> version ). I got it at auction but didn't get any probes. Did you see >> probes and if so, where would I look for such things? I'd be interested >> in a copy of the manuals, especially if they have schematic but even >> operation would be nice to have. Yes, this is the box that had a CP/M >> based OS ( when used with the disk models, like the 764 ). > > Not to rain on your parade, but I've long been fascinated by the > numerous offerings for logic analyzers on eBay--all without pods--and > all advertised as "working". > > I've wondered if there's an underground smuggling ring for those > things were they all end up in Paraguay. Or maybe the bottom of the > Sargasso Sea is carpeted with discarded logic analyzer pods... > > --Chuck > > > > From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Feb 10 22:54:04 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2010 23:54:04 -0500 Subject: logic analyzers In-Reply-To: <4B72F9AB.8852.1FA803E@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4B73615D.70904@bitsavers.org>, <4B72F9AB.8852.1FA803E@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Feb 10, 2010, at 9:23 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> Weirdstuff is where I got the main unit ( actually a 748, diskless >> version ). I got it at auction but didn't get any probes. Did you see >> probes and if so, where would I look for such things? I'd be >> interested >> in a copy of the manuals, especially if they have schematic but even >> operation would be nice to have. Yes, this is the box that had a CP/M >> based OS ( when used with the disk models, like the 764 ). > > Not to rain on your parade, but I've long been fascinated by the > numerous offerings for logic analyzers on eBay--all without pods--and > all advertised as "working". > > I've wondered if there's an underground smuggling ring for those > things were they all end up in Paraguay. Or maybe the bottom of the > Sargasso Sea is carpeted with discarded logic analyzer pods... Many scrappers have separate contracts for disposal of "wire". Anything that even remotely resembles "wire" gets unceremoniously thrown into a big bin and sold to the wire recyclers. Most logic analyzer pods go there from the scrapper world. I've plucked quite a few pods from quite a few gaylords over the years. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Wed Feb 10 23:21:40 2010 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2010 21:21:40 -0800 Subject: Algol vs Fortran was RE: VHDL vs Verilog In-Reply-To: <3C115E9B-AC23-401F-91BD-1B25187FDF5E@neurotica.com> References: <4b6fd060.26695.66eba@cclist.sydex.com> <6ed9562426e.0000058dn0body.h0me@inbox.com> <4b700d62.20109.f4bca6@cclist.sydex.com> <6F365783BCA.000005DDn0body.h0me@inbox.com> <0A82C779-29AA-41C6-BAF2-C1571B808D0C@neurotica.com> <4B712670.3050201@mail.msu.edu> <16E38B1D-0E55-4287-9DEE-CFE9AD76D686@neurotica.com> <4B71AD23.8040304@mail.msu.edu> <4B71B532.1070007@mail.msu.edu> <011719EC-CAE5-4482-A704-F2359BB17E52@mail.msu.edu> <6D2F1464-34E0-4601-AE47-7AD28DE28542@neurotica.com> <8FEBF117-CA86-46DB-A611-DBFCBE392015@mail.msu.edu> <294DDFB2-7746-4C58-BC7C-FBA00EEB2243@neurotica.com> <3C115E9B-AC23-401F-91BD-1B25187FDF5E@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4B7393E4.4000603@mail.msu.edu> Dave McGuire wrote: > On Feb 9, 2010, at 6:12 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: >> You can indeed use C#, via the Mono project. Generics are a very >> basic form of C++ templates that are good for creating generic >> containers, and that's about it. C++ templates are considerably more >> involved, and metaprogramming tricks are used to do all manner of >> insane things at compile time. At a very basic level, the two are >> the same. It's like saying a Yugo and a Maserati are equivalent >> because they are both cars. (yes, you can use analogies here :) > > Ok, I understand that a bit better now. I will go read up on > generics a bit. Thanks for the clarification. If you have a strong stomach, you should read up on C++ Template Metaprogramming as well. "Clever" people can do arguably useful things with it; but I find it unreadable and very difficult to debug (I'm not that clever, I guess). It's kind of like a limited version of Lisp macros, only done in a bizarre moon language based on odd C++ template expansion & overload resolution rules, and with no debugging support... > >>> You have? Seriously? >> >> Yep. Again, it's a case of bad programmers doing stupid things. > > Well ok, but is that the rule or the exception? ;) Hard to say. I'd estimate that most of the C++ code I've had to deal with has had performance on par with what I'd expect from a C implementation (it's just 20% uglier to look at) but I've also had to deal with a good amount of ugly C and ugly C++ written by people who were unclear on the concept of using the right algorithm for the problem. And as an aside, the C/C++ code I've had to deal with has been, in my experience, far more bug-prone and unstable than the C# code I've dealt with :). > >>> Playing music, playing video files, telnetting, sshing, editing, >>> compiling, browsing the web, etc etc etc. The apps are a bit >>> prettier now, certainly moreso than with fvwm, but I'd happily live >>> without that. >> >> See, here's where I see a disconnect; you are doing the same *class* >> of thing, but you're not really doing the same thing. Programs have >> gotten more complex because people want more from their software. > > Sure, I see where you're coming from, and I agree. But I'm actually > doing the same thing. With the exception of Firefox and Mail.app, the > stuff I run is all pretty lightweight. I wish Mail.app were a bit > lighter, in particular, because I, even being a VERY heavy email user, > barely scratch the surface of [most of] its [pointless] features. Well, there's a plethora of e-mail clients out there; I use Thunderbird at home and while it's not the most elegant thing it does a decent job for my needs. I've never used Mail.app (except perhaps in its earlier incarnation as a NeXTstep app :)) so I can't speak to whether it does magic things that are worth the memory overhead you're seeing. > >> Regardless of whether Firefox 3.5 was written in assembly or C++ >> you'd never hope to run it on your IPX. I just think you are blaming >> the wrong thing (or just blaming one thing) for the performance >> degradations you are perceiving. OO overhead adds some not >> imperceivable overhead; so do each of extensibility, abstraction, >> support for "modern standards" (CSS, JavaScript, XML) ui theming, >> support for "advanced" desktop metaphors, etc... Code reuse and >> abstractions also bring overhead; these exist even in C, but the >> overhead is worth it in terms of maintenance and usability (from a >> programming and a user perspective.) > > I do see where you're coming from. Perhaps I give OO too much > blame, but I stand by my accusations...it does deserve a lot of it, in > my opinion. It wasn't until very recent releases of common C > compilers, for example, that a simple "hello world" program in C++ > generated a 600KB (yes, six hundred kilobyte) binary. I've > demonstrated that (along with its 4KB C equivalent) many times. I > was, admittedly, pleased to see that this particular brand of idiocy > has been addressed. I have no idea what was in that damn binary. I think that C++ did wonders to malign the image of OO. C++ is just barely OO anyway -- it barely has compile-time encapsulation and has no real run-time encapsulation, memory management is still almost entirely manual (which people may argue is a good thing, but in the face of C++ exceptions and other C++ features, it's a HUGE issue since it makes memory management all that more difficult to do correctly), and compilers have taken a long time to catch up to the point where they generate decent code. I think most early (and some more recent) C++ compilers & linkers did a really terrible job with unused code removal; i.e. if you did a "#include" to do 'cout << "Hello, World!";' it'd drag in all sorts of associated I/O and support code that, despite never actually getting called by anything in your program, would end up in the resultant binary. I can't speak for all compilers, but the recent VS compilers/linkers do a pretty decent job of removing unused code, as well as folding together identical code blocks (the latter is *vital* if you get up to metaprogramming shenanigans). All of this comes with a fairly high compilation-time cost. (And it makes debugging optimized builds really fun -- those 50 templated functions you built get rolled into one function associated with one symbol name...) - Josh > > -Dave > From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Feb 10 23:56:46 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2010 21:56:46 -0800 (PST) Subject: Algol vs Fortran was RE: VHDL vs Verilog In-Reply-To: <4B7393E4.4000603@mail.msu.edu> from Josh Dersch at "Feb 10, 10 09:21:40 pm" Message-ID: <201002110556.o1B5ukFD028038@floodgap.com> > If you have a strong stomach, you should read up on C++ Template > Metaprogramming as well. "Clever" people can do arguably useful things > with it; but I find it unreadable and very difficult to debug (I'm not > that clever, I guess). It's kind of like a limited version of Lisp > macros, only done in a bizarre moon language based on odd C++ template > expansion & overload resolution rules, and with no debugging support... Mozilla uses templates for low-level stuff in NSPR, which means I have to occasionally touch them during my Classilla work. They are ... oblique. The less I have to deal with them, the better. I don't fully understand them either. > And as an aside, the C/C++ code I've had to deal with has been, in my > experience, far more bug-prone and unstable than the C# code I've dealt > with :). But wouldn't that be a constant of any kind of managed code system? -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- God is Real, unless declared Integer. -- Stan Sieler ----------------------- From cclist at sydex.com Thu Feb 11 00:00:06 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2010 22:00:06 -0800 Subject: logic analyzers In-Reply-To: References: , <4B72F9AB.8852.1FA803E@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4B732C66.20658.2C0ABD0@cclist.sydex.com> On 10 Feb 2010 at 23:54, Dave McGuire wrote: > Many scrappers have separate contracts for disposal of "wire". > Anything that even remotely resembles "wire" gets unceremoniously > thrown into a big bin and sold to the wire recyclers. Most logic > analyzer pods go there from the scrapper world. I've plucked quite a > few pods from quite a few gaylords over the years. If that's the case, I shudder to think how many 'scope probes have wound up in the "wire" box. But I can remember running across a pod-less HP logic analyzer back when Haltek was in business. It was going for next to nothing, to be fair. --Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Feb 11 01:14:18 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 11 Feb 2010 02:14:18 -0500 Subject: logic analyzers In-Reply-To: <4B732C66.20658.2C0ABD0@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4B72F9AB.8852.1FA803E@cclist.sydex.com>, <4B732C66.20658.2C0ABD0@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Feb 11, 2010, at 1:00 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> Many scrappers have separate contracts for disposal of "wire". >> Anything that even remotely resembles "wire" gets unceremoniously >> thrown into a big bin and sold to the wire recyclers. Most logic >> analyzer pods go there from the scrapper world. I've plucked quite a >> few pods from quite a few gaylords over the years. > > If that's the case, I shudder to think how many 'scope probes have > wound up in the "wire" box. Lots and lots. I made quite a bit of money digging them out, cleaning them up, testing them, and selling them in the late 1990s. I'd get them for a buck a piece. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From IanK at vulcan.com Thu Feb 11 01:16:35 2010 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2010 23:16:35 -0800 Subject: Algol vs Fortran was RE: VHDL vs Verilog In-Reply-To: <4B7393E4.4000603@mail.msu.edu> References: <4b6fd060.26695.66eba@cclist.sydex.com> <6ed9562426e.0000058dn0body.h0me@inbox.com> <4b700d62.20109.f4bca6@cclist.sydex.com> <6F365783BCA.000005DDn0body.h0me@inbox.com> <0A82C779-29AA-41C6-BAF2-C1571B808D0C@neurotica.com> <4B712670.3050201@mail.msu.edu> <16E38B1D-0E55-4287-9DEE-CFE9AD76D686@neurotica.com> <4B71AD23.8040304@mail.msu.edu> <4B71B532.1070007@mail.msu.edu> <011719EC-CAE5-4482-A704-F2359BB17E52@mail.msu.edu> <6D2F1464-34E0-4601-AE47-7AD28DE28542@neurotica.com> <8FEBF117-CA86-46DB-A611-DBFCBE392015@mail.msu.edu> <294DDFB2-7746-4C58-BC7C-FBA00EEB2243@neurotica.com> <3C115E9B-AC23-401F-91BD-1B25187FDF5E@neurotica.com>, <4B7393E4.4000603@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: One thing I've said for years: C++ is a language that *enables* OOP, but does not enforce it. (IMHO Philippe Kahn "did wonders to malign the image of OO" as he promoted Borland's related products.) I remember doing some work in Smalltalk and thinking, this is really OOP. That doesn't mean it was the way to do everything I wanted to do. OOP is a way of looking at problems. Functional programming is a way of looking at problems. Declarative, imperative, etc., etc. E.g., FORTRAN is an implementation of a specific instance of a way to look at a specific set of problems. All that we do in programming languages is to find meaningful ways to map our 'questions, queries, posers' onto the machines we've built, which underneath it all aren't (for the largest part) really all that different than when we started building computers. No programming language I've seen is attempting to or suitable for finding the nine billion names of God*. Nor have I seen a job posting for a programmer for such a position. This is probably why I rarely get involved in debates about programming languages - unless the subject is COBOL, which I think is an abomination, or Java, which is something you drink, not code in. -- Ian *Clarke, Arthur C: The Nine Billion Names of God (orig. 1953 in 'Star Science Fiction Stories, repub. 1958 in 'The Other Side of the Sky') ________________________________________ From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Josh Dersch [derschjo at mail.msu.edu] Sent: Wednesday, February 10, 2010 9:21 PM To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Algol vs Fortran was RE: VHDL vs Verilog I think that C++ did wonders to malign the image of OO. C++ is just barely OO anyway -- it barely has compile-time encapsulation and has no real run-time encapsulation, memory management is still almost entirely manual (which people may argue is a good thing, but in the face of C++ exceptions and other C++ features, it's a HUGE issue since it makes memory management all that more difficult to do correctly), and compilers have taken a long time to catch up to the point where they generate decent code. -- Josh From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Thu Feb 11 01:17:26 2010 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2010 23:17:26 -0800 Subject: A few more free things (Seattle) Message-ID: <4B73AF06.5070404@mail.msu.edu> In my unending quest to de-clutter my house, I offer up the following (local pickup only, please, in the Seattle area); unclaimed stuff goes to RE-PC next week: - IBM PS/2 Model 70/386 - 4MB ram, one 1.44mb floppy drive, no hard drive (but sled is present). Powers up and works fine as far as I can tell. - 2x IBM PC Convertible, one printer + serial port expansion. One with backlight, one with transflective LCD screen. Two carrying cases with two different designs. One AC adapter. IBM's first "laptop." Ugliest thing in the world, and has the most impractical expansion system I've ever seen. Kinda neat, but I haven't used them in years and I don't foresee getting any use out of them, so... - Sun Ultra Enterprise 2 - 512MB ram, 2xUltraSparc IIi processor (333Mhz, IIRC) no hard drives, but I have sleds. - DEC VR262 monitor. 19" monochrome. Just traded away my VCB01 so I've no use whatsoever for this. It works, but probably needs a new capacitor or two to make it really hum. - Compaq 15/30GB DLT drive. No idea if it works; bought it years ago from Boeing surplus but never actually put it to use as I had intended... Thanks as always... Josh From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Thu Feb 11 01:24:50 2010 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2010 23:24:50 -0800 Subject: Algol vs Fortran was RE: VHDL vs Verilog In-Reply-To: References: <4b6fd060.26695.66eba@cclist.sydex.com> <6ed9562426e.0000058dn0body.h0me@inbox.com> <4b700d62.20109.f4bca6@cclist.sydex.com> <6F365783BCA.000005DDn0body.h0me@inbox.com> <0A82C779-29AA-41C6-BAF2-C1571B808D0C@neurotica.com> <4B712670.3050201@mail.msu.edu> <16E38B1D-0E55-4287-9DEE-CFE9AD76D686@neurotica.com> <4B71AD23.8040304@mail.msu.edu> <4B71B532.1070007@mail.msu.edu> <011719EC-CAE5-4482-A704-F2359BB17E52@mail.msu.edu> <6D2F1464-34E0-4601-AE47-7AD28DE28542@neurotica.com> <8FEBF117-CA86-46DB-A611-DBFCBE392015@mail.msu.edu> <294DDFB2-7746-4C58-BC7C-FBA00EEB2243@neurotica.com> <3C115E9B-AC23-401F-91BD-1B25187FDF5E@neurotica.com>, <4B7393E4.4000603@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <4B73B0C2.9080600@mail.msu.edu> Ian King wrote: > > This is probably why I rarely get involved in debates about programming languages - unless the subject is COBOL, which I think is an abomination, or Java, which is something you drink, not code in. -- Ian > This is probably good advice. I should follow it more often. :) - Josh From IanK at vulcan.com Thu Feb 11 01:34:29 2010 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2010 23:34:29 -0800 Subject: Algol vs Fortran was RE: VHDL vs Verilog In-Reply-To: <4B73B0C2.9080600@mail.msu.edu> References: <4b6fd060.26695.66eba@cclist.sydex.com> <6ed9562426e.0000058dn0body.h0me@inbox.com> <4b700d62.20109.f4bca6@cclist.sydex.com> <6F365783BCA.000005DDn0body.h0me@inbox.com> <0A82C779-29AA-41C6-BAF2-C1571B808D0C@neurotica.com> <4B712670.3050201@mail.msu.edu> <16E38B1D-0E55-4287-9DEE-CFE9AD76D686@neurotica.com> <4B71AD23.8040304@mail.msu.edu> <4B71B532.1070007@mail.msu.edu> <011719EC-CAE5-4482-A704-F2359BB17E52@mail.msu.edu> <6D2F1464-34E0-4601-AE47-7AD28DE28542@neurotica.com> <8FEBF117-CA86-46DB-A611-DBFCBE392015@mail.msu.edu> <294DDFB2-7746-4C58-BC7C-FBA00EEB2243@neurotica.com> <3C115E9B-AC23-401F-91BD-1B25187FDF5E@neurotica.com>, <4B7393E4.4000603@mail.msu.edu> , <4B73B0C2.9080600@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: What, and miss out on all the fun of a geek 'food fight'? :-) ________________________________________ From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Josh Dersch [derschjo at mail.msu.edu] Sent: Wednesday, February 10, 2010 11:24 PM To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Algol vs Fortran was RE: VHDL vs Verilog Ian King wrote: > > This is probably why I rarely get involved in debates about programming languages - unless the subject is COBOL, which I think is an abomination, or Java, which is something you drink, not code in. -- Ian > This is probably good advice. I should follow it more often. :) - Josh From jws at jwsss.com Wed Feb 10 23:53:09 2010 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2010 21:53:09 -0800 Subject: logic analyzers In-Reply-To: <4B72F9AB.8852.1FA803E@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4B73615D.70904@bitsavers.org>, <4B72F9AB.8852.1FA803E@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4B739B45.9080501@jwsss.com> A friend of mine and I worked for Arium, which are well represented on ePay. If anyone is interested we have a pile of probably 20 analyzers, which are probably not going to get used. I am in posession of a 16500C and quite pleased with it, though the ML4400 can run faster with more channels. We do have the pods, and manuals. Would consider requests for any or all of the pile. I talked to my buddy, and pretty much are willing to let it go. The pods would mostly be for the ML4400, though I think I have a working 4100 with one pod set. Arium had started making a trace product which went under a Pentium and the ML4400 with a third party (paratronics or such) made capture board to capture the 133mhz bus. At the time it was clunky, but INtel couldn't keep up with the bus w/o a "deathstar" HP 16xx or 16xxx setup to capture all the pins which cost way up near $100k. So they kept making the 4400's plus the trace unit, called a TRC54 for quite a time longer after they made any standalone analyzers. And almost none with the pods for the TRC54 / ML4400 combo. So what you see are the ML4400 units with two capture cards and 200 channels of trace. Note also with the ML4400, for what it's worth the actual loop from the pod to the clip is also active with a mini coax and balanced resistor network on both ends, so you have to have the ML4400, pod, and the lead set (or make up the leads, I can get you the formula). The roll of mini coax was snarfed by another employee for scrap, so you are on your own finding that. It was quite expensive and hard to get, and actually looks like the small 30 guage stranded lead wire, but actually is coax. Other useless data is that the drives are 720k drives if anyone wants one that won't read 1.44 (there are a very few that had the 1.44mb units, but for the most part are 720k standard). Jim On 2/10/2010 6:23 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 10 Feb 2010 at 17:51, dwight elvey wrote: > > >> Weirdstuff is where I got the main unit ( actually a 748, diskless >> version ). I got it at auction but didn't get any probes. Did you see >> probes and if so, where would I look for such things? I'd be interested >> in a copy of the manuals, especially if they have schematic but even >> operation would be nice to have. Yes, this is the box that had a CP/M >> based OS ( when used with the disk models, like the 764 ). >> > Not to rain on your parade, but I've long been fascinated by the > numerous offerings for logic analyzers on eBay--all without pods--and > all advertised as "working". > > I've wondered if there's an underground smuggling ring for those > things were they all end up in Paraguay. Or maybe the bottom of the > Sargasso Sea is carpeted with discarded logic analyzer pods... > > --Chuck > > > > > > From chd at chdickman.com Wed Feb 10 17:15:25 2010 From: chd at chdickman.com (Charles H Dickman) Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2010 18:15:25 -0500 Subject: The value of assembler language programmers [was RE: Algol vs Fortran was RE: VHDL vs Verilog] In-Reply-To: References: <493390.80299.qm@web110407.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4B733E0D.7040404@nktelco.net> Ethan Dicks wrote: > This is C code then and C code now, 80x25 then and 80x25 now. UNIX > then and UNIX or Linux now. 32-bit processors then, 32-bit processors > now. Not quite apples to oranges like most comparisons reaching back > that far across the generations of equipment and mentalities. > Parkinson's Law at work. It is interesting to compare UNIX device drivers for V6 or V7 or even 4.2BSD with NetBSD for VAX for the same devices. The difference is striking. The V6 code does only what is absolutely necessary and nothing more. > -ethan > > -chuck From chd at chdickman.com Wed Feb 10 17:39:43 2010 From: chd at chdickman.com (Charles H Dickman) Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2010 18:39:43 -0500 Subject: The value of assembler language programmers [was RE: Algol vs Fortran was RE: VHDL vs Verilog] In-Reply-To: References: <4B72084E.4040501@e-bbes.com> <4B719A4D.16251.1D6F147@cclist.sydex.com> <4B7211CB.6040107@e-bbes.com> <4B72849E.2080608@e-bbes.com> <893725.71632.qm@web83903.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4B7343BF.6020109@nktelco.net> Ethan Dicks wrote: > For comparison, a "standard package" color IBM PC/AT (5170) w/dot > matrix printer and hard disk (larger than the Pro, admittedly) was $5K > at launch in 1985, IIRC. > > And a PC/AT compatible could be had for less than $3k at MicroCenter in that time frame. I remember taking my parents to Columbus and convincing them I needed it for school. I still have the chassis and the monitor, but the motherboard gave up the ghost when I started doing ISA hardware hacking. > -ethan > > -chuck From dkelvey at hotmail.com Thu Feb 11 10:03:54 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Thu, 11 Feb 2010 08:03:54 -0800 Subject: shipping help In-Reply-To: <4B732C66.20658.2C0ABD0@cclist.sydex.com> References: , , <4B72F9AB.8852.1FA803E@cclist.sydex.com>, , , <4B732C66.20658.2C0ABD0@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: Hi I'm looking for some help to ship an item from Pasadena, Ca. It is a little heavy, about 45 lb. I hope to bid on it but it is a pick-up only. I could use some help from someone in the Pasadena area. ( Its not a logic analyzer ). Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail: Trusted email with powerful SPAM protection. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/201469227/direct/01/ From legalize at xmission.com Thu Feb 11 10:40:55 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 11 Feb 2010 09:40:55 -0700 Subject: The value of assembler language programmers [was RE: Algol vs Fortran was RE: VHDL vs Verilog] In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 10 Feb 2010 18:39:43 -0500. <4B7343BF.6020109@nktelco.net> Message-ID: > Ethan Dicks wrote: > > For comparison, a "standard package" color IBM PC/AT (5170) w/dot > > matrix printer and hard disk (larger than the Pro, admittedly) was $5K > > at launch in 1985, IIRC. $5,000 in 1985 is the equivalent of $9876.79 in 2008.[*] I know we all realize that inflation is eating away at the value of currency, but it really has picked up quite a bit in the last decade such that even 1985 currency is quite different from today. That just floors me because in 1986 I took out a $4,000 loan to get an Amiga 1000 with dual flopppy drives and a monitor. (I also got the extra CHIP ram expansion thingy on the front.) [*] http://www.westegg.com/inflation/infl.cgi -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Thu Feb 11 10:46:45 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 11 Feb 2010 09:46:45 -0700 Subject: Poor programming (was Re: Algol vs Fortran) In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 10 Feb 2010 23:30:18 +0000. <016401caaaa9$39828350$78fdf93e@user8459cef6fa> Message-ID: Its simple economics, really. There is a huge demand for the creation and modification of software. There is a short supply of top-calibre coders that create and modify software. Ergo, most of the creation and modification of software is by a lesser calibre of programmer. Instead of just bemoaning the situation, I personally spend quite a bit of time trying to educate my fellow programmers on better and best practices. Almost all of it is done for free. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Thu Feb 11 10:56:03 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 11 Feb 2010 09:56:03 -0700 Subject: Algol vs Fortran was RE: VHDL vs Verilog In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 10 Feb 2010 21:21:40 -0800. <4B7393E4.4000603@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: In article <4B7393E4.4000603 at mail.msu.edu>, Josh Dersch writes: > If you have a strong stomach, you should read up on C++ Template > Metaprogramming as well. "Clever" people can do arguably useful things > with it; but I find it unreadable and very difficult to debug (I'm not > that clever, I guess). [...] It should be mentioned that you neither need to understand the template metaprogramming coding or debugging techniques as a user of the libraries that employ these mechanisms. For instance, the Spirit library in Boost lets you write recursive descent parsers in C++ by writing the BNF grammar almost directly *as* C++ source code. See Yeah, they employ all kinds of template magic to make this possible, but as a user of Spirit I really don't need to understand it. Stepping through the guts of Spirit while I debug my parser isn't any more or less insane than stepping through the guts of a YACC generated parser. The Spirit parsers are faster, provide more design options and are implemented wholly in C++ (no lex or yacc needed). There's no free lunch however -- the compile times can be hefty and are roughly proportional to the complexity of the language being parsed. > And as an aside, the C/C++ code I've had to deal with has been, in my > experience, far more bug-prone and unstable than the C# code I've dealt > with :). C# is a .22 calibre pistol. C++ is a tactical nuclear weapon. You don't give tactical nukes to a cadet. :-) -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Feb 11 11:04:00 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 11 Feb 2010 12:04:00 -0500 Subject: Old machines in today's dollars (was Re: The value of assembler language programmers) Message-ID: On 2/11/10, Richard wrote: > >> Ethan Dicks wrote: >> > For comparison, a "standard package" color IBM PC/AT (5170) >> > ... was $5K at launch in 1985, IIRC. > > $5,000 in 1985 is the equivalent of $9876.79 in 2008.[*] Interesting to note. It was expensive then, and by extension, absurdly expensive now. I routinely install enterprise-grade web servers that are well under $10K (dual-socket, quad core, 48GB of memory, 1TB internal RAID, quad gigabit NICs, etc). > I know we all realize that inflation is eating away at the value of > currency, but it really has picked up quite a bit in the last decade > such that even 1985 currency is quite different from today. Fortunately for me, I'm making more than twice as many absolute dollars as I was in 1985 (when I happened to be in college but also had a part-time, but "real", job as an electronics tech, software developer, and VMS System Manager), so economically, at least, I've made some progress over the past 25 years. ;-) > That just floors me because in 1986 I took out a $4,000 loan to get an > Amiga 1000 with dual flopppy drives and a monitor. (I also got the extra > CHIP ram expansion thingy on the front.) I also bought an A1000 in 1986. Mine didn't require a loan, but that's because I got a bare-bones 256K A1000 with no monitor, single floppy, just mouse and keyboard, for about $800. I later purchased a Skyles Electric Works CHIP RAM expansion board for under $50, IIRC (that's still on the machine!) I repurposed a Commodore 1702 monitor from my C-64, and eventually slapped in a $50 after-market RGBI interface that I hacked to do analog RGB - still a bit fuzzy owing to the limited video bandwidth of the original product, but *much* cheaper than the going rate for a "proper" analog RBG monitor. Unfortunately for me, that monitor was stolen in a burglary in 1990, along with an A500, and a "Wedge" ISA disk interface (fortunately for me, they dumped the A1000 on the floor but didn't take it with them). I did happen to get that A1000 while I worked at the aforementioned job, and am proud that the warranty was voided before the computer even made it home. We were doing MC68000 embedded product development there, so there was no way I could help cracking the Amiga case and showing off the innards to our engineers, which started a session comparing the guts of the Amiga to our own 68K designs. I still have one of those boxes that was under development at the time - about the size of an A2000, able to be stuffed with 2MB of 41256s, and with enough proprietary slots to support 32 serial ports. It even had an early-model 3.5" disk drive. No custom chips, though, so very different from the Amiga once you got outside of the CPU/memory area. -ethan From oltmansg at bellsouth.net Thu Feb 11 11:16:00 2010 From: oltmansg at bellsouth.net (geoffrey oltmans) Date: Thu, 11 Feb 2010 09:16:00 -0800 (PST) Subject: The value of assembler language programmers [was RE: Algol vs Fortran was RE: VHDL vs Verilog] In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <999366.58031.qm@web83908.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> This is a good point. I was comparing dollars in early 80's dollar amounts for the difference between the IBM and DEC offerings. There's significant different in the number, but as you indicate the difference is quite a bit more shocking when you put it into today's denominated dollars. Computers today are waaay cheaper than they used to be. ________________________________ From: Richard To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Sent: Thu, February 11, 2010 10:40:55 AM Subject: Re: The value of assembler language programmers [was RE: Algol vs Fortran was RE: VHDL vs Verilog] > Ethan Dicks wrote: > > For comparison, a "standard package" color IBM PC/AT (5170) w/dot > > matrix printer and hard disk (larger than the Pro, admittedly) was $5K > > at launch in 1985, IIRC. $5,000 in 1985 is the equivalent of $9876.79 in 2008.[*] I know we all realize that inflation is eating away at the value of currency, but it really has picked up quite a bit in the last decade such that even 1985 currency is quite different from today. That just floors me because in 1986 I took out a $4,000 loan to get an Amiga 1000 with dual flopppy drives and a monitor. (I also got the extra CHIP ram expansion thingy on the front.) [*] http://www.westegg.com/inflation/infl.cgi -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From robert at irrelevant.com Thu Feb 11 11:54:49 2010 From: robert at irrelevant.com (Rob) Date: Thu, 11 Feb 2010 17:54:49 +0000 Subject: Old machines in today's dollars (was Re: The value of assembler language programmers) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2f806cd71002110954i655c4236x31b66597db5dd616@mail.gmail.com> On 11/02/2010, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 2/11/10, Richard wrote: >> >>> Ethan Dicks wrote: >>> > For comparison, a "standard package" color IBM PC/AT (5170) >>> > ... was $5K at launch in 1985, IIRC. >> >> $5,000 in 1985 is the equivalent of $9876.79 in 2008.[*] > > Interesting to note. It was expensive then, and by extension, > absurdly expensive now. I routinely install enterprise-grade web > servers that are well under $10K (dual-socket, quad core, 48GB of > memory, 1TB internal RAID, quad gigabit NICs, etc). A positive bargain .. Just to rent space in the (UK's) 1982 equivalent of the Internet, BT's Prestel, was ?5,500 pa for 100 frames. Approximately ?22,000 ($34,344) in today's money.. That got you about 75K of usable publishing space, and they never got above 100K of subscribers who could potentially see what you published.. (Scan of the price list hosted at www.viewdata.org.uk) No wonder it vanished virtually without trace as soon as the Internet started being noticed.... Rob From ray at arachelian.com Thu Feb 11 12:24:58 2010 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Thu, 11 Feb 2010 13:24:58 -0500 Subject: Algol vs Fortran was RE: VHDL vs Verilog In-Reply-To: <4B72B96F.6000407@philpem.me.uk> References: <4b6fd060.26695.66eba@cclist.sydex.com> <6F365783BCA.000005DDn0body.h0me@inbox.com> <0A82C779-29AA-41C6-BAF2-C1571B808D0C@neurotica.com> <201002090914.28688.pat@computer-refuge.org> <4B72B96F.6000407@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4B744B7A.5000706@arachelian.com> Philip Pemberton wrote: > Creating, say, a window is a piece of cake -- extend the wxFrame > class, add your components to the constructor (stuff like "myTextBox = > new wxTextBox(this)"), and add event handler functions to deal with > what the user does. The thing that's currently pissing me off about wx is that the newer ones lack the rawbits interface - at least on OS X 10.6 - and some on Linux as well. Well, that and the fact that you can't blit an image to a DC, you have to first convert it to a bitmap. wxBitmap can be manipulated with rawbitmap.h - only it's not available where I need it. wxImage can be manipulated with the SETRGB macro , but you need to convert it to a bitmap before you can Blit it, and doing so is insanely, unbearably slow on OS X. Oh sure, there are other methods of playing with wxImages, but they're even slower (using pens, drawing lines, etc.) Worse yet, on OS X 10.6 with wxCocoa, if I use wxImage with SETRGB and then convert the image to a bitmap and blit the bitmap, I'm get weird banding artifacts when using the gray 50% desktop pattern (you know, alternating lines of 0x55 and 0xaa patterns black & white), but not on the older OS X 10.5's. It's making it very hard to get a 64 bit version of LisaEm. That and playing sounds is fugly - you have to pass it a .wav file, so I had to resort to creating a temporary .wav file on the fly and telling it to play that. Oh sure, on SOME platforms passing raw data works, but not everywhere. Rest of the stuff is wonderful. :-) From ray at arachelian.com Thu Feb 11 12:41:16 2010 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Thu, 11 Feb 2010 13:41:16 -0500 Subject: Poor programming (was Re: Algol vs Fortran) In-Reply-To: <016401caaaa9$39828350$78fdf93e@user8459cef6fa> References: <4b6fd060.26695.66eba@cclist.sydex.com> <6F365783BCA.000005DDn0body.h0me@inbox.com> <0A82C779-29AA-41C6-BAF2-C1571B808D0C@neurotica.com> <201002090914.28688.pat@computer-refuge.org><3690A970-A290-4EC2-A8E3-11016BB120A4@neurotica.com> <4B72E4DD.1060303@arachelian.com> <016401caaaa9$39828350$78fdf93e@user8459cef6fa> Message-ID: <4B744F4C.5030609@arachelian.com> Andrew Burton wrote: > That is shocking. I may not be writing professional programs (thank god, no > time limits or other pressures), but when I do write software (usually for > the Amiga) I always include error checks. When attempting to save a file to > disk, I always check to make sure that there is enough space on the target > device for the file. > Oh I'm sure they've got error checks, but those don't help when their design was written by monkeys. Ok, I can understand you'd want an in memory db, but why not tokenize the XML, why not store the XML as a tree. Why not make it so it has proper multithreading, and why not set it up so you don't actually read and write the data from disk into memory and instead use mmap to let the OS do that work for you? > I had Windows Media Player crash on me the other week and jammed CPU usage > at 100% :( Not great on my laptop, as the only way to shut it down is to > pull the plug out of the mains and then pull out the battery (timed > carefully - thank god for the HD access light!). Ouch. Well, that's not exactly well written software either. I get by with Miro or VLC for video and Songbird, which I also use as a browser since it's built ontop of the same engine as Firefox and can use most of Firefox's plugins. Much nicer than itunes or anything else I've used recently, though it takes some work to get it to be as nice as firefox. Running this on OS X or Linux is a godsend over that other thing from Redmond that they claim is an operating system. I've not been able to make any app crash the OS so far in that manner, but that's just me. :-) > It was just as it was about > to reload in the music file (something else I hate - why re-load in the > music file you were just playing, especially when it's not a large file > (<5MB)?!!) after reaching the end when the problem occured. > Well, I do like the ability for the apps I use to restore themselves to the same state they were in before I quit them - saving context is a good thing. Obviously if you had just crashed you should detect that the app wasn't closed cleanly and give the user some options. If you've seen the Session Manager plugin to Firefox, IMHO, the way to do right by the user. > I'm certainly no expert at programming (good at BASIC and beginner at 68K > ASM), but if you don't sort out the easy bugs (or put in safety nets) how on > earth can you expect to catch the hard-to-find ones?! > Most of this stuff is driven by marketing, and having it just barely good enough to get it out the door, damn the users, meet the deadline no matter what. And it shows. The new hw is wonderful, very fast, loads of storage, loads of memory. Sadly code monkeys barely out of high school abuse it by writing buggy bloatware. From ray at arachelian.com Thu Feb 11 12:52:32 2010 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Thu, 11 Feb 2010 13:52:32 -0500 Subject: Hostnames and machine names (was Re: Dave's walls) In-Reply-To: <4B734C73.8010407@philpem.me.uk> References: <01CAAA72.27E20D00@MSE_D03> <82F55E20-F398-4FC8-A93E-81C2CA8F1796@neurotica.com> <4B734C73.8010407@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4B7451F0.3060203@arachelian.com> Philip Pemberton wrote: > Nice.. I have yet to find a religion that worships a chinchilla god, > though. Too bad you don't have pet squids, otherwise that would have been easy... Ia Ia Cthulhu. ;) > opening Pandora's Box. "You have no idea of the terror you hath > wrought..." and all that. Even better fitting since the name means adored by everyone - well, not everyone, but the public doesn't know any better, and woe to them when the plagues are unleashed. > > I do know someone who named his servers after curse words. Two DNS > servers: "f*ck" and "sh*t", an email server called "bullsh*t" and a > web server called "jacksh*t". He was a strange guy... I once named an openbsd firewall I created for the office sh!+stains - because of the really crappy machine they gave me to install it on. Worked just fine. :-) Typically I name things after cryptographic or cold war codename related names. sturgeon, tunny, venona, umbra, engima, sunstreak, silkworth, waihopai, pinegap, etc. One place I worked at named things out of Dr. Seuss. "Ooops! Sneetch died." (there were two of them, yes, one had a star, yes, it was a cluster.) Another after Tolkien characters. Currently the trend is to name things by where and what they are. i.e. ny-ux-mq01. Another scheme was based on the nearest airport, the client's name, and the OS.. so jfkxxxsapp01 would be a box at a data center near JFK airport, for client xxx, s=solaris, and it was an app server. :) From thomas.gardner at sbcglobal.net Thu Feb 11 12:53:19 2010 From: thomas.gardner at sbcglobal.net (Tom Gardner) Date: Thu, 11 Feb 2010 10:53:19 -0800 Subject: Inflation. [Was: Re: The value of assembler language programmers [was RE: ...]] In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > This is a good point. I was comparing dollars in early 80's dollar amounts > for the difference between the IBM and DEC offerings. There's significant > different in the number, . > ________________________________ > From: Richard > > $5,000 in 1985 is the equivalent of $9876.79 in 2008.[*] > > I know we all realize that inflation is eating away at the value of > currency, but it really has picked up quite a bit in the last decade > such that even 1985 currency is quite different from today. Last time I checked we are deflating, not inflating! $5,000.00 in 2008 has the same buying power as $$4,982.21 in 2009 BTW, $5,000.00 in 1985 has the same buying power as $9,969.19 in 2009 per http://data.bls.gov/cgi-bin/cpicalc.pl if u trust yr government statistics :-) Tom From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Feb 11 12:54:26 2010 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Thu, 11 Feb 2010 11:54:26 -0700 Subject: Poor programming (was Re: Algol vs Fortran) In-Reply-To: <4B744F4C.5030609@arachelian.com> References: <4b6fd060.26695.66eba@cclist.sydex.com> <6F365783BCA.000005DDn0body.h0me@inbox.com> <0A82C779-29AA-41C6-BAF2-C1571B808D0C@neurotica.com> <201002090914.28688.pat@computer-refuge.org><3690A970-A290-4EC2-A8E3-11016BB120A4@neurotica.com> <4B72E4DD.1060303@arachelian.com> <016401caaaa9$39828350$78fdf93e@user8459cef6fa> <4B744F4C.5030609@arachelian.com> Message-ID: <4B745262.6040708@jetnet.ab.ca> Ray Arachelian wrote: > The new hw is wonderful, very fast, loads of storage, loads of memory. > Sadly code monkeys barely out of high school abuse it by writing buggy > bloatware. Well I am doing the same thing with hardware, for the CPLD computer design I playing with. Keep on adding features until the compiler crashes and the keep all the features before that one. :) How ever since is for my personal use, I don't need all the features, but it sure is hard to tell if a complex design will route. Ben. From ray at arachelian.com Thu Feb 11 13:00:41 2010 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Thu, 11 Feb 2010 14:00:41 -0500 Subject: Algol vs Fortran was RE: VHDL vs Verilog In-Reply-To: References: <4b6fd060.26695.66eba@cclist.sydex.com> <6ed9562426e.0000058dn0body.h0me@inbox.com> <4b700d62.20109.f4bca6@cclist.sydex.com> <6F365783BCA.000005DDn0body.h0me@inbox.com> <0A82C779-29AA-41C6-BAF2-C1571B808D0C@neurotica.com> <4B712670.3050201@mail.msu.edu> <16E38B1D-0E55-4287-9DEE-CFE9AD76D686@neurotica.com> <4B71AD23.8040304@mail.msu.edu> <4B71B532.1070007@mail.msu.edu> <011719EC-CAE5-4482-A704-F2359BB17E52@mail.msu.edu> <6D2F1464-34E0-4601-AE47-7AD28DE28542@neurotica.com> <8FEBF117-CA86-46DB-A611-DBFCBE392015@mail.msu.edu> <294DDFB2-7746-4C58-BC7C-FBA00EEB2243@neurotica.com> <3C115E9B-AC23-401F-91BD-1B25187FDF5E@neurotica.com>, <4B7393E4.4000603@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <4B7453D9.7060603@arachelian.com> Ian King wrote: > This is probably why I rarely get involved in debates about programming languages - unless the subject is COBOL, which I think is an abomination, One of my IM statuses is this "Learning COBOL is like seeing a plush Cthulhu and petting it before you sign up for the class, but when you get there, you actually meet the real thing, in the flesh, awakened and hungry." Nope, I didn't listen, I thought "Nah, couldn't be THAT bad." Boy was I wrong. :-) > or Java, which is something you drink, not code in. -- Ian > Or a place to visit. I've recently taken a liking to Lua. Pretty decent for what it is. Nice and small too. Though I've not done anything with Smalltalk, I do like it, though coming from C, I do find the syntax a bit weird. From ray at arachelian.com Thu Feb 11 13:09:16 2010 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Thu, 11 Feb 2010 14:09:16 -0500 Subject: Poor programming (was Re: Algol vs Fortran) In-Reply-To: <4B745262.6040708@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4b6fd060.26695.66eba@cclist.sydex.com> <6F365783BCA.000005DDn0body.h0me@inbox.com> <0A82C779-29AA-41C6-BAF2-C1571B808D0C@neurotica.com> <201002090914.28688.pat@computer-refuge.org><3690A970-A290-4EC2-A8E3-11016BB120A4@neurotica.com> <4B72E4DD.1060303@arachelian.com> <016401caaaa9$39828350$78fdf93e@user8459cef6fa> <4B744F4C.5030609@arachelian.com> <4B745262.6040708@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4B7455DC.6060006@arachelian.com> Ben wrote: > Ray Arachelian wrote: > >> The new hw is wonderful, very fast, loads of storage, loads of memory. >> Sadly code monkeys barely out of high school abuse it by writing buggy >> bloatware. > > Well I am doing the same thing with hardware, for the CPLD computer > design I playing with. Keep on adding features until the compiler > crashes and the keep all the features before that one. :) > How ever since is for my personal use, I don't need all the features, > but it sure is hard to tell if a complex design will route. Presumably you've not written an in memory db that's single threaded that requires 100GB of RAM, and claims to be a commercially available application, sold for who knows how many hundreds of thousands of dollars. Nothing wrong with adding features as long as you use the right data structures and algorithms to implement them. Yeah, ok, for sorting an array of 10-20 values, bubble sort is ok, but when that grows to several hundred items, that no longer works. As an example. :-) From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Feb 11 13:20:23 2010 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Thu, 11 Feb 2010 12:20:23 -0700 Subject: Poor programming (was Re: Algol vs Fortran) In-Reply-To: <4B7455DC.6060006@arachelian.com> References: <4b6fd060.26695.66eba@cclist.sydex.com> <6F365783BCA.000005DDn0body.h0me@inbox.com> <0A82C779-29AA-41C6-BAF2-C1571B808D0C@neurotica.com> <201002090914.28688.pat@computer-refuge.org><3690A970-A290-4EC2-A8E3-11016BB120A4@neurotica.com> <4B72E4DD.1060303@arachelian.com> <016401caaaa9$39828350$78fdf93e@user8459cef6fa> <4B744F4C.5030609@arachelian.com> <4B745262.6040708@jetnet.ab.ca> <4B7455DC.6060006@arachelian.com> Message-ID: <4B745877.7060501@jetnet.ab.ca> Ray Arachelian wrote: > Yeah, ok, for sorting an array of 10-20 values, bubble sort is ok, but > when that grows to several hundred items, that no longer works. As an > example. :-) > Management: "We need it yesterday!" From emu at e-bbes.com Thu Feb 11 13:25:23 2010 From: emu at e-bbes.com (e.stiebler) Date: Thu, 11 Feb 2010 12:25:23 -0700 Subject: Poor programming (was Re: Algol vs Fortran) In-Reply-To: <4B745877.7060501@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4b6fd060.26695.66eba@cclist.sydex.com> <6F365783BCA.000005DDn0body.h0me@inbox.com> <0A82C779-29AA-41C6-BAF2-C1571B808D0C@neurotica.com> <201002090914.28688.pat@computer-refuge.org><3690A970-A290-4EC2-A8E3-11016BB120A4@neurotica.com> <4B72E4DD.1060303@arachelian.com> <016401caaaa9$39828350$78fdf93e@user8459cef6fa> <4B744F4C.5030609@arachelian.com> <4B745262.6040708@jetnet.ab.ca> <4B7455DC.6060006@arachelian.com> <4B745877.7060501@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4B7459A3.9060701@e-bbes.com> Ben wrote: > Ray Arachelian wrote: > >> Yeah, ok, for sorting an array of 10-20 values, bubble sort is ok, but >> when that grows to several hundred items, that no longer works. As an >> example. :-) >> > Management: "We need it yesterday!" Programmer : We didn't test it yet ! Managment : We just send patches next Tuesday ! From IanK at vulcan.com Thu Feb 11 14:14:53 2010 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Thu, 11 Feb 2010 12:14:53 -0800 Subject: Poor programming (was Re: Algol vs Fortran) In-Reply-To: <4B745877.7060501@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4b6fd060.26695.66eba@cclist.sydex.com> <6F365783BCA.000005DDn0body.h0me@inbox.com> <0A82C779-29AA-41C6-BAF2-C1571B808D0C@neurotica.com> <201002090914.28688.pat@computer-refuge.org><3690A970-A290-4EC2-A8E3-11016BB120A4@neurotica.com> <4B72E4DD <4B7455DC.6060006@arachelian.com> <4B745877.7060501@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Ben > Sent: Thursday, February 11, 2010 11:20 AM > To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Poor programming (was Re: Algol vs Fortran) > > Ray Arachelian wrote: > > > Yeah, ok, for sorting an array of 10-20 values, bubble sort is ok, > but > > when that grows to several hundred items, that no longer works. As > an > > example. :-) > > > Management: "We need it yesterday!" > Marketing: "And it needs to come in blue." From RichA at vulcan.com Thu Feb 11 14:58:13 2010 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Thu, 11 Feb 2010 12:58:13 -0800 Subject: Docs found: Honeywell 800, Facit PE1000, Rank Xerox In-Reply-To: <4B735F6E.2010802@hachti.de> References: <4B735F6E.2010802@hachti.de> Message-ID: Oh, yes, please save the Sigma manuals!!!! --rma -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Philipp Hachtmann Sent: Wednesday, February 10, 2010 5:38 PM To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Docs found: Honeywell 800, Facit PE1000, Rank Xerox (see first posting) Honeywell 800: ************** Honeywell 800 transistorized Data Processing System Programmers' Reference Manual DSI-31A, 1962 FACIT PE1000 Paper Tape Reader: ******************************* Spare Parts UP 631001, 1.10.63 Manual UP 630201, 1.4.63 Technical Description (brochure) Rank Xerox: *********** Rank Xerox EXTENDED ALGOL-60 19 05 72 C, May 1972 Sigma 5/9 Computers Control Program-Five (CP-V) Sigma 6/7/9 Computers Time-Sharing Manual 90 09 07 E, June 1973 Xerox Operating System (XOS) Sigma 6/7/9 Computers Batch Processing Reference Manual 90 17 65 A, December 1971 Xerox Universal Time-Sharing System (UTS) Sigma 6/7/9 Computers Time-Sharing User's Guide 90 16 92 A, April 1971 -- http://www.hachti.de From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Feb 11 14:08:43 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 11 Feb 2010 20:08:43 +0000 (GMT) Subject: The value of assembler language programmers [was RE: Algol vs In-Reply-To: from "Ethan Dicks" at Feb 10, 10 04:36:47 pm Message-ID: > maybe five computers"? Perhaps he was just prescient about the > Pro380. ;-) > > -ethan > (Who has one. Are the other four owners already on this list?) Well, I have Pro380 (and a pair of Pro350s) -tony From RichA at vulcan.com Thu Feb 11 15:13:07 2010 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Thu, 11 Feb 2010 13:13:07 -0800 Subject: Object-Oriented Programming models [was RE: Algol vs Fortran was RE: VHDL vs Verilog] In-Reply-To: <4B7453D9.7060603@arachelian.com> References: <4b6fd060.26695.66eba@cclist.sydex.com> <6ed9562426e.0000058dn0body.h0me@inbox.com> <4b700d62.20109.f4bca6@cclist.sydex.com> <6F365783BCA.000005DDn0body.h0me@inbox.com> <0A82C779-29AA-41C6-BAF2-C1571B808D0C@neurotica.com> <4B712670.3050201@mail.msu.edu> <16E38B1D-0E55-4287-9DEE-CFE9AD76D686@neurotica.com> <4B71AD23.8040304@mail.msu.edu> <4B71B532.1070007@mail.msu.edu> <011719EC-CAE5-4482-A704-F2359BB17E52@mail.msu.edu> <6D2F1464-34E0-4601-AE47-7AD28DE28542@neurotica.com> <8FEBF117-CA86-46DB-A611-DBFCBE392015@mail.msu.edu> <294DDFB2-7746-4C58-BC7C-FBA00EEB2243@neurotica.com> <3C115E9B-AC23-401F-91BD-1B25187FDF5E@neurotica.com>, <4B7393E4.4000603@mail.msu.edu> <4B7453D9.7060603@arachelian.com> Message-ID: From: Ray Arachelian Sent: Thursday, February 11, 2010 11:01 AM > Ian King wrote: >> This is probably why I rarely get involved in debates about programming >> languages - unless the subject is COBOL, which I think is an abomination, > One of my IM statuses is this "Learning COBOL is like seeing a plush > Cthulhu and petting it before you sign up for the class, but when you > get there, you actually meet the real thing, in the flesh, awakened and > hungry." > Nope, I didn't listen, I thought "Nah, couldn't be THAT bad." Boy was I > wrong. :-) Oh, come on. For the problem domain for which it was designed, COBOL is very good. PL/I improves on it if you're a FORTRAsh programmer, but not much. >> or Java, which is something you drink, not code in. -- Ian > Or a place to visit. > I've recently taken a liking to Lua. Pretty decent for what it is. > Nice and small too. Though I've not done anything with Smalltalk, I do > like it, though coming from C, I do find the syntax a bit weird. Personally, I wish that ANSI X3J13 had chosen Symbolics' New Flavors over XEROX PARC's LOOPS as its OO model, but both work fine, and are real object models. (My first exposure to OOP actually *was* Smalltalk, so all those C based systems feel odd to me.) I already knew Lisp before I saw any OOP. Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.PDPplanet.org/ http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Feb 11 14:47:57 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 11 Feb 2010 20:47:57 +0000 (GMT) Subject: hp 9153 floppy & disk In-Reply-To: from "Rik Bos" at Feb 10, 10 11:05:42 pm Message-ID: > I do have a defective nighthawk if you want to try your luck on it.. > (off-list) What's the problem with it? No, I am not going to try to outbid the OP, but I am just curious. After all, I'll probably end up helping to fix it :-) Mosre seriosuly, I would stronlg suggest the OP obtains this drive. It'll give yo a good ideas as to what's going on. And apart from that 40 pin custom chip I mentioned, the eletdonic side is not hard to fix. Of course if it's got problems inside the HDA, it's going to ne a lot harder.. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Feb 11 14:50:12 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 11 Feb 2010 20:50:12 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Dave's walls (was: Selling Calcomp 565 plotter) In-Reply-To: from "Dave McGuire" at Feb 10, 10 05:06:36 pm Message-ID: > It's a cat rug, but it can easily be pressed into use for either > application. ;) What is it about classic computer people and cats? Cats have this habit of curling up asleep on top of service manuals, and demanding food with menaces when you're in the middle of solving a complex problem. On the other hand, I wouldn't swap my cat for anything ;-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Feb 11 14:54:49 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 11 Feb 2010 20:54:49 +0000 (GMT) Subject: The value of assembler language programmers [was RE: Algol vs In-Reply-To: <4B72D4B6.19647.16A22D9@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Feb 10, 10 03:45:58 pm Message-ID: > Personally, I still want a computer that will paint my house and > repair the fence in the backyard. IIRC, the original definiton of 'computer' was a person who operates a computing machine. In which case finding one that can paint your house shouldn't be too hard. -tony From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Feb 11 15:27:43 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 11 Feb 2010 16:27:43 -0500 Subject: Dave's walls (was: Selling Calcomp 565 plotter) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <794D245B-1E51-49B8-A077-516568C9E5E3@neurotica.com> On Feb 11, 2010, at 3:50 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> It's a cat rug, but it can easily be pressed into use for either >> application. ;) > > What is it about classic computer people and cats? Cats have this > habit > of curling up asleep on top of service manuals, and demanding food > with > menaces when you're in the middle of solving a complex problem. On the > other hand, I wouldn't swap my cat for anything ;-) Right there with you. We have three, and a fourth (mostly) lives on the lanai. Cats rule, dogs drool. ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Thu Feb 11 15:29:12 2010 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Thu, 11 Feb 2010 22:29:12 +0100 Subject: Dave's walls (was: Selling Calcomp 565 plotter) In-Reply-To: References: from "DaveMcGuire" at Feb 10, 10 05:06:36 pm Message-ID: <4BB22ED0B00E46BFA46809A6AA73AEC8@xp1800> > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Namens Tony Duell > Verzonden: donderdag 11 februari 2010 21:50 > Aan: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Onderwerp: Re: Dave's walls (was: Selling Calcomp 565 plotter) > > > It's a cat rug, but it can easily be pressed into use for either > > application. ;) > > What is it about classic computer people and cats? Cats have > this habit of curling up asleep on top of service manuals, > and demanding food with menaces when you're in the middle of > solving a complex problem. On the other hand, I wouldn't swap > my cat for anything ;-) > > -tony Ours is keeping the house free of mice (the ones that eat things). After he bites the head of, he'll bring the remainings to us to show how good he is in hunting mice. It is a don't touch cat for strangers, we have a sign 'cat bites'. I love him ;-) He's red and is having the same bad attitude as Garfield, that's why we named him Spinner. -Rik From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Thu Feb 11 15:31:03 2010 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Thu, 11 Feb 2010 22:31:03 +0100 Subject: hp 9153 floppy & disk In-Reply-To: References: from "Rik Bos" at Feb10, 10 11:05:42 pm Message-ID: <39780ABF985A4BA386299A2072E64709@xp1800> > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Namens Tony Duell > Verzonden: donderdag 11 februari 2010 21:48 > Aan: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Onderwerp: Re: hp 9153 floppy & disk > > > I do have a defective nighthawk if you want to try your luck on it.. > > (off-list) > > What's the problem with it? No, I am not going to try to > outbid the OP, but I am just curious. After all, I'll > probably end up helping to fix it :-) > > Mosre seriosuly, I would stronlg suggest the OP obtains this > drive. It'll give yo a good ideas as to what's going on. And > apart from that 40 pin custom chip I mentioned, the eletdonic > side is not hard to fix. > > Of course if it's got problems inside the HDA, it's going to > ne a lot harder.. > > -tony As I remember well it's not making enough speed (revs) at startup. -Rik From cclist at sydex.com Thu Feb 11 15:42:41 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 11 Feb 2010 13:42:41 -0800 Subject: The value of assembler language programmers [was RE: Algol vs In-Reply-To: References: <4B72D4B6.19647.16A22D9@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Feb 10, 10 03:45:58 pm, Message-ID: <4B740951.11711.90A64@cclist.sydex.com> On 11 Feb 2010 at 20:54, Tony Duell wrote: > > Personally, I still want a computer that will paint my house and > > repair the fence in the backyard. > > IIRC, the original definiton of 'computer' was a person who operates a > computing machine. In which case finding one that can paint your house > shouldn't be too hard. Heh. I haven't looked at the latest ANSI X3 Fortran (2003?) spec, but I do recall that the '90 spec defined computer as "anyhing capable of computation, including a human being. On the other hand, I'm not certain about some human beings... --Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Feb 11 16:00:02 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 11 Feb 2010 22:00:02 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Dave's walls (was: Selling Calcomp 565 plotter) In-Reply-To: <4BB22ED0B00E46BFA46809A6AA73AEC8@xp1800> from "Rik Bos" at Feb 11, 10 10:29:12 pm Message-ID: > > What is it about classic computer people and cats? Cats have > > this habit of curling up asleep on top of service manuals, > > and demanding food with menaces when you're in the middle of > > solving a complex problem. On the other hand, I wouldn't swap > > my cat for anything ;-) > > > > -tony > > Ours is keeping the house free of mice (the ones that eat things). Ah yes. Mine (a ginger cat called Pentia [1]) has the hackish habit of dismantling mice, birds, frogs, etc. Alas he's not figured out how to put them back together again :-) [1] Namever after the East German SLR camera. There is a rare version of this camera which is gold plated (rather than chrome) with green leatherette trim (rather than black). Seems toi be an apporpriate name for a ginger cat with geeen eys. Oh, and the camera is a remarkably clever design in many ways (it's getting to far off topic to explain the operation of the Prestor Reflex shutter), Mayn people moan about them, but that;'s because they try to fix them like they fix more normal cameras and get in a mess. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Feb 11 16:01:54 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 11 Feb 2010 22:01:54 +0000 (GMT) Subject: hp 9153 floppy & disk In-Reply-To: <39780ABF985A4BA386299A2072E64709@xp1800> from "Rik Bos" at Feb 11, 10 10:31:03 pm Message-ID: > > Mosre seriosuly, I would stronlg suggest the OP obtains this > > drive. It'll give yo a good ideas as to what's going on. And > > apart from that 40 pin custom chip I mentioned, the eletdonic > > side is not hard to fix. > > > > Of course if it's got problems inside the HDA, it's going to > > ne a lot harder.. > > > > -tony > > As I remember well it's not making enough speed (revs) at startup. I seem to rememebr some of the motor control circuitery is in that ASIC, but ther'es also a lot that's outside it, and those are the parts most likely to fail. There are some power transistors, for example, that could well be the problem. -tony From robert at irrelevant.com Thu Feb 11 16:43:18 2010 From: robert at irrelevant.com (Rob) Date: Thu, 11 Feb 2010 22:43:18 +0000 Subject: Dave's walls (was: Selling Calcomp 565 plotter) In-Reply-To: References: <4BB22ED0B00E46BFA46809A6AA73AEC8@xp1800> Message-ID: <2f806cd71002111443s7bb11eby6b56850f164e57eb@mail.gmail.com> >> > What is it about classic computer people and cats? We're brighter! >> People who own a cat are more likely to have a university degree than those with a pet dog, a study by Bristol University suggests. << http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8501042.stm From cclist at sydex.com Thu Feb 11 17:03:39 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 11 Feb 2010 15:03:39 -0800 Subject: Dave's walls (was: Selling Calcomp 565 plotter) In-Reply-To: <2f806cd71002111443s7bb11eby6b56850f164e57eb@mail.gmail.com> References: <4BB22ED0B00E46BFA46809A6AA73AEC8@xp1800>, , <2f806cd71002111443s7bb11eby6b56850f164e57eb@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B741C4B.26478.5329CB@cclist.sydex.com> On 11 Feb 2010 at 22:43, Rob wrote: > >> > What is it about classic computer people and cats? > > We're brighter! > > >> People who own a cat are more likely to have a university degree > >> than those with a pet dog, a study by Bristol University suggests. > >> << > http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8501042.stm Not necessarily--you're probably a city dweller with limited time and space--or you're female: "Of those surveyed, dog-lovers were more likely to be male, living in rural areas and under the age of 55. " I've had cats and dogs, some at the same time. I'll take dogs any day. --Chuck From spc at conman.org Thu Feb 11 17:32:21 2010 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Thu, 11 Feb 2010 18:32:21 -0500 Subject: Hostnames and machine names (was Re: Dave's walls) In-Reply-To: <4B7451F0.3060203@arachelian.com> References: <01CAAA72.27E20D00@MSE_D03> <82F55E20-F398-4FC8-A93E-81C2CA8F1796@neurotica.com> <4B734C73.8010407@philpem.me.uk> <4B7451F0.3060203@arachelian.com> Message-ID: <20100211233221.GA16339@brevard.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Ray Arachelian once stated: > Philip Pemberton wrote: > > Nice.. I have yet to find a religion that worships a chinchilla god, > > though. > Too bad you don't have pet squids, otherwise that would have been > easy... Ia Ia Cthulhu. ;) > > > opening Pandora's Box. "You have no idea of the terror you hath > > wrought..." and all that. > Even better fitting since the name means adored by everyone - well, not > everyone, but the public doesn't know any better, and woe to them when > the plagues are unleashed. > > > > > I do know someone who named his servers after curse words. Two DNS > > servers: "f*ck" and "sh*t", an email server called "bullsh*t" and a > > web server called "jacksh*t". He was a strange guy... > I once named an openbsd firewall I created for the office sh!+stains - > because of the really crappy machine they gave me to install it on. > Worked just fine. :-) I remember calling one of our servers "pain," since it was. Also, a friend of mine named one of his machines "kwalitee" because, you know, quality with a K and all that. Right now, we tend to name physical machines after our pets, and virtual machines after cities. I don't think they've forgiven me for naming one of them "truth-or-consequences" (New Mexico). -spc (At least I didn't name it Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysiliogogogoch) From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Thu Feb 11 18:00:45 2010 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Thu, 11 Feb 2010 16:00:45 -0800 Subject: The value of assembler language programmers [was RE: Algol vs References: Message-ID: <4B749A2D.92004FF5@cs.ubc.ca> Tony Duell wrote: > > > Personally, I still want a computer that will paint my house and > > repair the fence in the backyard. > > IIRC, the original definiton of 'computer' was a person who operates a > computing machine. In which case finding one that can paint your house > shouldn't be too hard. To put a finer point on it, I expect the original definition would have been someone who did the computation, then became someone who operated an adding machine or calculator, then the modern/current definition. From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Feb 11 18:17:16 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 11 Feb 2010 16:17:16 -0800 (PST) Subject: The value of assembler language programmers [was RE: Algol vs In-Reply-To: <4B749A2D.92004FF5@cs.ubc.ca> References: <4B749A2D.92004FF5@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <20100211161622.X8669@shell.lmi.net> > Personally, I still want a computer that will paint my house and > repair the fence in the backyard. Well, we all know about "fencepost errors", but how computationally intensive is your house painting? From legalize at xmission.com Thu Feb 11 18:38:21 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 11 Feb 2010 17:38:21 -0700 Subject: Inflation. [Was: Re: The value of assembler language programmers [was RE: ...]] In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 11 Feb 2010 10:53:19 -0800. Message-ID: In article , "Tom Gardner" writes: > Last time I checked we are deflating, not inflating! Inflating the money supply devalues the currency. Two ways of looking at the same problem. What you describe is the effect of what is typically called "inflation". -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From cclist at sydex.com Thu Feb 11 19:17:19 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 11 Feb 2010 17:17:19 -0800 Subject: The value of assembler language programmers [was RE: Algol vs In-Reply-To: <20100211161622.X8669@shell.lmi.net> References: , <4B749A2D.92004FF5@cs.ubc.ca>, <20100211161622.X8669@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4B743B9F.16632.CD8AD5@cclist.sydex.com> On 11 Feb 2010 at 16:17, Fred Cisin wrote: > Well, we all know about "fencepost errors", but how computationally > intensive is your house painting? It's basically a ladder funciton... --Chuck From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Thu Feb 11 20:05:53 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2010 02:05:53 +0000 Subject: Dave's walls (was: Selling Calcomp 565 plotter) In-Reply-To: <4B741C4B.26478.5329CB@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4BB22ED0B00E46BFA46809A6AA73AEC8@xp1800>, , <2f806cd71002111443s7bb11eby6b56850f164e57eb@mail.gmail.com> <4B741C4B.26478.5329CB@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4B74B781.6060002@philpem.me.uk> Chuck Guzis wrote: > I've had cats and dogs, some at the same time. I'll take dogs any > day. If the cat happens to have the personality that makes it sit on your lap and purr, then I'd go with the cat. Similarly, as long as the dog is reasonably quiet (typically bigger dogs) and not a clumsy nutcase (as in, doesn't run round the house actively trying to break things -- seen that on too many occasions) then I'd go with the dog. But I wouldn't trade my little "colony" of chinchillas for anything. They're just too much fun to watch (especially the little 'uns!) :) -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From cclist at sydex.com Thu Feb 11 20:21:44 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 11 Feb 2010 18:21:44 -0800 Subject: Dave's walls (was: Selling Calcomp 565 plotter) In-Reply-To: <4B74B781.6060002@philpem.me.uk> References: <4BB22ED0B00E46BFA46809A6AA73AEC8@xp1800>, <4B741C4B.26478.5329CB@cclist.sydex.com>, <4B74B781.6060002@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4B744AB8.23252.1088410@cclist.sydex.com> On 12 Feb 2010 at 2:05, Philip Pemberton wrote: > Similarly, as long as the dog is reasonably quiet (typically bigger > dogs) and not a clumsy nutcase (as in, doesn't run round the house > actively trying to break things -- seen that on too many occasions) > then I'd go with the dog. All in all, my cats were pretty good. The current crop of canines is one female black lab and a male golden retriever. Both are smart and well-behaved. Plus, they'll chase the neighbor's geese off my property--something that a cat would never do. > But I wouldn't trade my little "colony" of chinchillas for anything. > They're just too much fun to watch (especially the little 'uns!) :) Fur critters, huh? I'm fighting a running battle with some nutria that keep invading my pond, but they are definitely not "cute". --Chuck From jthecman at netscape.net Thu Feb 11 21:24:59 2010 From: jthecman at netscape.net (jthecman at netscape.net) Date: Thu, 11 Feb 2010 22:24:59 -0500 Subject: Manual Needed Message-ID: <8CC79AA1704C4E9-27F8-7F3C@webmail-m063.sysops.aol.com> Hello Does anyone have a copy of the hp Draftmaster II manual for loan, sale, can make a copy of it? Thanks, John K From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Feb 11 22:37:28 2010 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Thu, 11 Feb 2010 21:37:28 -0700 Subject: The value of assembler language programmers [was RE: Algol vs In-Reply-To: <4B743B9F.16632.CD8AD5@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4B749A2D.92004FF5@cs.ubc.ca>, <20100211161622.X8669@shell.lmi.net> <4B743B9F.16632.CD8AD5@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4B74DB08.9000900@jetnet.ab.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 11 Feb 2010 at 16:17, Fred Cisin wrote: > >> Well, we all know about "fencepost errors", but how computationally >> intensive is your house painting? > > It's basically a ladder funciton... Random walk to keep paint free, here! > --Chuck > From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Feb 11 22:38:57 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 11 Feb 2010 23:38:57 -0500 Subject: Manual Needed In-Reply-To: <8CC79AA1704C4E9-27F8-7F3C@webmail-m063.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CC79AA1704C4E9-27F8-7F3C@webmail-m063.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Feb 11, 2010 at 10:24 PM, wrote: > Hello > Does anyone have a copy of the hp Draftmaster II manual for loan, sale, can > make a copy of it? If something turns up in electronic form, I'd like a pointer as well. I have one of those upstairs that did not come with documentation (via University surplus). -ethan From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Feb 11 22:48:11 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 11 Feb 2010 20:48:11 -0800 (PST) Subject: Hostnames and machine names (was Re: Dave's walls) In-Reply-To: <20100211233221.GA16339@brevard.conman.org> from Sean Conner at "Feb 11, 10 06:32:21 pm" Message-ID: <201002120448.o1C4mBkq017196@floodgap.com> > Right now, we tend to name physical machines after our pets, and virtual > machines after cities. I don't think they've forgiven me for naming one of > them "truth-or-consequences" (New Mexico). servers: Scandinavian cities stockholm (AIX ANS 500), helsinki (NetBSD PM 7300), oslo (PM G4), reykjavik (Solbourne), thule (NetBSD IIci), sondrestrom (AMOS Alpha Micro), godthaab (NetBSD Q605), uppsala (staging for the p720) Don't ask how that got started. clients: someone important in their development Figure out which are which (grouped ones are similar) bryan, bruce, andy, jonathan gordon, alex, nathan bil jean laptops and portables: dogs (except gordon for historical reasons) Benji (PB 1400), rover (SX-64) [uses von and hedley on the network], Rin Tin Tin (PB 540c), barkley (iBook G3), underdog (iBook G4), atomicdog (PB G4) Oh, and guess what bigbunny is. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Nothing recedes like success. -- Walter Winchell --------------------------- From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Feb 11 22:51:28 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 11 Feb 2010 20:51:28 -0800 (PST) Subject: Dave's walls (was: Selling Calcomp 565 plotter) In-Reply-To: <4B741C4B.26478.5329CB@cclist.sydex.com> from Chuck Guzis at "Feb 11, 10 03:03:39 pm" Message-ID: <201002120451.o1C4pSXS021092@floodgap.com> > Not necessarily--you're probably a city dweller with limited time and > space The computers take up the space. The cat right now lives with my folks. They're secretly happy to have her, she's a very nice cat. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- A dean is to faculty as a hydrant is to a dog. -- Alfred Kahn -------------- From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Feb 11 23:09:10 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 11 Feb 2010 21:09:10 -0800 (PST) Subject: Algol vs Fortran was RE: VHDL vs Verilog In-Reply-To: <4B7453D9.7060603@arachelian.com> from Ray Arachelian at "Feb 11, 10 02:00:41 pm" Message-ID: <201002120509.o1C59AL1021040@floodgap.com> > I've recently taken a liking to Lua. Pretty decent for what it is. I maintained, until the project died, the Mac port of a cross-"compiler" for Plua, which was my favourite way to program classic PalmOS apps. But my preferred language for 90% of my tasks is Perl. After that, a smattering of C/C++, BASIC, Pascal, Tcl/Tk, csh, whatever works well for the project at hand. I refuse to write Python, and I find Ruby and PHP too trendy. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Everything! Is my! Delusion! -- "Dead or Alive 2" -------------------------- From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Feb 12 02:00:48 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2010 03:00:48 -0500 Subject: The value of assembler language programmers [was RE: Algol vs Fortran was RE: VHDL vs Verilog] In-Reply-To: <4D22312E-3223-484F-A18B-59E5FFF29AE7@microspot.co.uk> References: <4D22312E-3223-484F-A18B-59E5FFF29AE7@microspot.co.uk> Message-ID: On Feb 10, 2010, at 3:15 PM, Roger Holmes wrote: > By the way I spent three hours this morning showing a BBC regional > news crew my 1962 mainframe, apparently it will be condensed down > to three minutes. I don't have a transmission date, it didn't go > out today and probably will only shown in the south east area of > England but should be on the BBC web site. Oh and a couple of weeks > ago I posted an old video of it on U-Tube if anyone is interested > the URL is http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VsBPuUJPvKg or just > Google ICT 1301 and select video. I hope to post a better one later > in the year. Man oh MAN that's a beautiful machine. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Feb 12 04:00:11 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2010 05:00:11 -0500 Subject: Western NY Message-ID: <4AAE851F-79E1-4B07-BDFF-B0F207EA4D7C@neurotica.com> Hey folks...Is there anyone in the western part of New York who might be willing to help me with the retrieval and temporary storage of a smallish system? It's a big deskside chassis, would need a station wagon or pickup truck type of thing. I'd be able to pick it up within the next 2-3 months. Anyone? Thanks, -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From christian_liendo at yahoo.com Fri Feb 12 08:36:16 2010 From: christian_liendo at yahoo.com (Christian Liendo) Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2010 06:36:16 -0800 (PST) Subject: Hacking a typewriter into a teletype In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <905687.22685.qm@web113508.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> I figured some one on this list would find this useful. http://numist.net/post/2010/project-typewriter.html From stimpy.u.idiot at gmail.com Fri Feb 12 09:59:49 2010 From: stimpy.u.idiot at gmail.com (Pete Edwards) Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2010 15:59:49 +0000 Subject: The value of assembler language programmers [was RE: Algol vs Fortran was RE: VHDL vs Verilog] In-Reply-To: References: <4D22312E-3223-484F-A18B-59E5FFF29AE7@microspot.co.uk> Message-ID: <11c909eb1002120759u37cef5e6x4d7e5470b6678d56@mail.gmail.com> On 12 February 2010 08:00, Dave McGuire wrote: > On Feb 10, 2010, at 3:15 PM, Roger Holmes wrote: >> >> the BBC web site. Oh and a couple of weeks ago I posted an old video of it >> on U-Tube if anyone is interested the URL is >> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VsBPuUJPvKg or just Google ICT 1301 and >> select video. I hope to post a better one later in the year. > > ?Man oh MAN that's a beautiful machine. > > ? ? ? ? -Dave > Seconded! That's an awesome piece of kit Roger. I *especially* like the Forbidden Planet noises at the end. What is that audio signal derived from? -- Pete Edwards "Prediction is very difficult, especially if it's about the future" - Niels Bohr From emu at e-bbes.com Fri Feb 12 10:20:05 2010 From: emu at e-bbes.com (e.stiebler) Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2010 09:20:05 -0700 Subject: HP-IB, Amigo/cs80 was Re: hp 9153 floppy & disk In-Reply-To: <4B731C6F.2080306@bitsavers.org> References: <201002101937.o1AJbENf004322@smtp-vbr18.xs4all.nl> <4B731C6F.2080306@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4B757FB5.8030002@e-bbes.com> Al Kossow wrote: > On 2/10/10 11:37 AM, Rik Bos wrote: > >> So, what you're saying is, that I should get myself a microcontroller >> with an sd-flash and start programming Amigo/CS80 ? >> And simply forget about the box I have here ? > And thus the wheel is recreated again. > How many times is this going to have to be done before someone open-sources > this code? So, if I would make the hardware, how many people are interested in a box which emulates HP-IB, Amigo/cs80 ? If the source would be open, is SourceForge the best way to do it ? Or are people just downloading it, without working/helping out ? Cheers From cclist at sydex.com Fri Feb 12 10:44:40 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2010 08:44:40 -0800 Subject: Hacking a typewriter into a teletype In-Reply-To: <905687.22685.qm@web113508.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: , <905687.22685.qm@web113508.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4B7514F8.19394.8B6F5@cclist.sydex.com> On 12 Feb 2010 at 6:36, Christian Liendo wrote: > I figured some one on this list would find this useful. > > http://numist.net/post/2010/project-typewriter.html Didn't a number of Brother typewriter models have the capability of also serving as printers--without modifications? I also wonder if it might not be better to start with a word-processor type of typewriter. Mr. Obvious on the web page stated: "it also revealed that avr-gcc's code generation is very poorly optimized" --Chuck From arcbe2001 at yahoo.com Fri Feb 12 11:07:11 2010 From: arcbe2001 at yahoo.com (Russ Bartlett) Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2010 09:07:11 -0800 (PST) Subject: The value of assembler language programmers [was RE: Algol vs Fortran was RE: VHDL vs Verilog] In-Reply-To: <11c909eb1002120759u37cef5e6x4d7e5470b6678d56@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <443912.13570.qm@web110402.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> I worked on one of these systems? 400 words IAS , magnet drum, and 4 tape decks .Programming was MPL.? We would use a card sorter (off-line) to save on sort time for a tape sort/merge process. --- On Fri, 2/12/10, Pete Edwards wrote: From: Pete Edwards Subject: Re: The value of assembler language programmers [was RE: Algol vs Fortran was RE: VHDL vs Verilog] To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Date: Friday, February 12, 2010, 10:59 AM On 12 February 2010 08:00, Dave McGuire wrote: > On Feb 10, 2010, at 3:15 PM, Roger Holmes wrote: >> >> the BBC web site. Oh and a couple of weeks ago I posted an old video of it >> on U-Tube if anyone is interested the URL is >> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VsBPuUJPvKg or just Google ICT 1301 and >> select video. I hope to post a better one later in the year. > > ?Man oh MAN that's a beautiful machine. > > ? ? ? ? -Dave > Seconded! That's an awesome piece of kit Roger. I *especially* like the Forbidden Planet noises at the end. What is that audio signal derived from? -- Pete Edwards "Prediction is very difficult, especially if it's about the future" - Niels Bohr From arcbe2001 at yahoo.com Fri Feb 12 11:19:29 2010 From: arcbe2001 at yahoo.com (Russ Bartlett) Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2010 09:19:29 -0800 (PST) Subject: Y2K retrospective / was Re: Algol vs ... Message-ID: <17641.39335.qm@web110403.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> I get back to my point that a lot of the comments and criticisms concerning the absence of the century in system design comes? from people ill equipped? and knowledgeable to be able to pass judgment.? By 1985 I had been working in Data Processing for 20 years!? Hardware constraints dictated what we did and didn't do.? The hardware constraints were our main obstacle and? were twofold: 1) Cost - Memory was incredibly expensive (Read The mythical man month) 2) Hardware Technology - Early systems were mag tape only.? The bottom line to this is that there is always a price point.? Added to which, and factored in, is the life expectancy of any system.? Back then it was considered around 10-15 years plus.? A lot of systems had no upward compatability and applications needed to be modified to run. In the mid 60's only large companies had systems with greater than 16K memory and disc drives.? Mag tape 800 and 1600 bpi if you were lucky was the norm.? Systems running a single job stream were common place. ?? Now the more sophisticated systems - of which the British ICT (ICL) was one - used an offset to hold dates.? The ICL 1900 range? used a technique of holding the number of days since the Jan 1st 1900.? Richard Pick later used a similar off-set technique in his Pick O/S (Dec 31, 1967).? We used assembler language because we had to.? Generally they were considered a necessary evil although I loved using it. 3rd generation language compilers weren't that mature and generated a lot of machine code instructions making them a memory hog and slow to execute. ?? While the main pack (IBM lead) pursued architecture that used Assembler, Burroughs took a different, and far better approach as their systems used Algol. In the early days when we wrote programs they were written onto coding forms.? Once punched onto 80 column cards we would check each card to ensure that had been key punched correctly.? Checking an 8000 statement? program took time.? Once checked we would have it listed (used little machine time).? We would then dry run through the program looking for logic errors.? Having done that we would have it compiled.? Typically there would be a couple of development slots or so a week for testing so we had ensure that we had done due diligence.? If it compiled we would schedule a test slot and run against test data.? Debugging consisted of analyzing dumps and correcting the code.? Contrast this against interactive source debuggers.? Today machine time is inexpensive and many compiles and test shots may be performed in a day.? "Workbench" tools allow the programmer to run their program without even hitting the mainframe.? A totally different world.? There was no padding of EDP (Electronic Data Processing) budgets - they didn't exist, there was not an EDP cost center in the G/L.? EDP was a huge investment for any company.? We didn't have an EDP Manager in the true sense of the term as we reported to the head of finance - The chief accountant.? It was later that we split off and became a separate entity with our own budget. --- On Wed, 2/10/10, Brent Hilpert wrote: From: Brent Hilpert Subject: Y2K retrospective / was Re: Algol vs ... To: General at invalid.domain, "On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Date: Wednesday, February 10, 2010, 1:25 AM William Donzelli wrote: > > > 11 years ago, I pointed this very fact out to "journalists" who were > > convinced that Y2K was all a scam to pad IT budgets because "nobody > > would have gone to that much trouble to save 4 bits (00-99 fits in 7 > > bits, 2000 fits in 11 bits) even in the 1950s. > > While it was not a scam, it certainly was used to pad IT budgets. I would argue the public aspect of the issue was a scam. The people who needed to know, knew already. The public hype around the issue was overblown and unnecessary. Remember the various experts and consultants railing about how microwave ovens and cars and anything with a microprocessor in it (things that didn't even know about the date) were going to fail? I still have the bulletin from the government mailed out to every household in Canada to prepare everyone for Y2K: a fine example of public folly. From nico at farumdata.dk Fri Feb 12 11:48:03 2010 From: nico at farumdata.dk (Nico de Jong) Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2010 18:48:03 +0100 Subject: Y2K retrospective / was Re: Algol vs ... References: <17641.39335.qm@web110403.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: >From: "Russ Bartlett" xxx at yahoo.com --------------- I get back to my point that a lot of the comments and criticisms concerning the absence of the century in system design comes from people ill equipped and knowledgeable to be able to pass judgment. By 1985 I had been working in Data Processing for 20 years! Hardware constraints dictated what we did and didn't do. The hardware constraints were our main obstacle and were twofold: 1) Cost - Memory was incredibly expensive (Read The mythical man month) 2) Hardware Technology - Early systems were mag tape only. The bottom line to this is that there is always a price point. Added to which, and factored in, is the life expectancy of any system. Back then it was considered around 10-15 years plus. A lot of systems had no upward compatability and applications needed to be modified to run. In the mid 60's only large companies had systems with greater than 16K memory and disc drives. Mag tape 800 and 1600 bpi if you were lucky was the norm. -------------------- I fully agree with Russ. In many files we used julian date, expressed as YYDDD. In COMP-3 (packed decimal), this would occupy 3 bytes. A full date, CCYYMMDD, would occupy 5 bytes. You might laugh, but in many financial systems this was a PITA. The smalles mainframe I used in the 70's, was an IBM 360/25. It was equipped with a whopping. When I developped a program for statistics, the first compilation wanted 80K of memory (double buffering, blocked records, etc). After having cut the fat away, I couldnt get it below 32K, so the boss had to go to his boss, and ask for money so we could RENT 4K of memory ! When that was in place, I had 4 (four) bytes left. Nico From cclist at sydex.com Fri Feb 12 11:52:15 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2010 09:52:15 -0800 Subject: Y2K retrospective / was Re: Algol vs ... In-Reply-To: <17641.39335.qm@web110403.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <17641.39335.qm@web110403.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4B7524CF.9161.46C445@cclist.sydex.com> On 12 Feb 2010 at 9:19, Russ Bartlett wrote: > I get back to my point that a lot of the comments and criticisms > concerning the absence of the century in system design comes? from > people ill equipped? and knowledgeable to be able to pass judgment.? > By 1985 I had been working in Data Processing for 20 years!? Hardware > constraints dictated what we did and didn't do.? The hardware > constraints were our main obstacle and? were twofold: > > 1) Cost - Memory was incredibly expensive (Read The mythical man > month) 2) Hardware Technology - Early systems were mag tape only.? Oh, c'mon, Russ! I was there too and the greatest number of 2-digit Y2K gaffes were committed by COBOL programmers using PICTURE 99 for the year. Had they thought just a bit, using PICTURE XX and then supplementing with a conversion routine to the appropriate decimal form of the year would have worked wonders. Consider, for example, that if a programmer had allowed 0-9 and A-Z (uppercase) in the year field, the collating order would have been preserved and the 2- position year field could have expressed 1,296 years in 2 character positions. No, the prime cause was lazy programming. I was guilty of it also. --Chuck From nico at farumdata.dk Fri Feb 12 12:06:57 2010 From: nico at farumdata.dk (Nico de Jong) Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2010 19:06:57 +0100 Subject: Y2K retrospective / was Re: Algol vs ... References: <17641.39335.qm@web110403.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <59933B3C325A4CE5AF75265DEE326C14@udvikling> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nico de Jong" > The smalles mainframe I used in the 70's, was an IBM 360/25. It was > equipped with a whopping. When I developped a program for statistics, the > first compilation wanted 80K of memory (double buffering, blocked records, > etc). After having cut the fat away, I couldnt get it below 32K, so the > boss had to go to his boss, and ask for money so we could RENT 4K of > memory ! When that was in place, I had 4 (four) bytes left. Sorry, I forgot to mention the original core size. A whole 28K ! From onymouse at garlic.com Fri Feb 12 12:16:21 2010 From: onymouse at garlic.com (jd) Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2010 10:16:21 -0800 Subject: Y2K retrospective / was Re: Algol vs ... In-Reply-To: References: <17641.39335.qm@web110403.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4B759AF5.3080709@garlic.com> Nico de Jong ????????: > The smalles mainframe I used in the 70's, was an IBM 360/25. It was > equipped with a whopping. When I developped a program for statistics, > the first compilation wanted 80K of memory (double buffering, blocked > records, etc). After having cut the fat away, I couldnt get it below > 32K, so the boss had to go to his boss, and ask for money so we could > RENT 4K of memory ! When that was in place, I had 4 (four) bytes left. I never heard of a whopping option for the s360. Was it useful? Could it be used in PC's? (^_^) == jd From onymouse at garlic.com Fri Feb 12 12:44:13 2010 From: onymouse at garlic.com (jd) Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2010 10:44:13 -0800 Subject: Y2K retrospective / was Re: Algol vs ... In-Reply-To: <17641.39335.qm@web110403.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <17641.39335.qm@web110403.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4B75A17D.5050106@garlic.com> Russ Bartlett ????????: > > In the early days when we wrote programs they were written onto > coding forms. Once punched onto 80 column cards we would check > each card to ensure that had been key punched correctly. Checking > an 8000 statement program took time. Once checked we would have > it listed (used little machine time). We would then dry run > through the program looking for logic errors. Having done that we > would have it compiled. Typically there would be a couple of > development slots or so a week for testing so we had ensure that we > had done due diligence. If it compiled we would schedule a test > slot and run against test data. Debugging consisted of analyzing > dumps and correcting the code. Contrast this against interactive > source debuggers. Today machine time is inexpensive and many > compiles and test shots may be performed in a day. "Workbench" > tools allow the programmer to run their program without even > hitting the mainframe. A totally different world. > I still have a pad or two of IBM coding forms and print formatting forms. And an IBM flowchart template. And slide rules. And trig tables. And those stinky Bishop Graphics PCB templates that still stink after 35 years. Although I coded in my head and thought flowcharts a waste of time when I could clearly see the program flow, I still kept the forms and template. Somehow I didn't keep the boxes full of listings and punched tape. > > I would argue the public aspect of the issue was a scam. The people > who needed to know, knew already. The public hype around the issue > was overblown and unnecessary. And it turns out that y2k+10 is a problem, sometimes very critical, which gets no attention and certainly no hype. It caught everyone unawares. > > Remember the various experts and consultants railing about how > microwave ovens and cars and anything with a microprocessor in it > (things that didn't even know about the date) were going to fail? I was told my 1976 Litronix LED watch was going to quit working on 2000 Jan 1. It stopped working in 2003. I forgot to replace the battery. Reminds me that a friend's 99 Buick wouldn't start on New Year's 2001. She said it was Y2K. It was a dead battery cos the lights were left on. She countered that the lights were infected with the Y2K bug. > > I still have the bulletin from the government mailed out to every > household in Canada to prepare everyone for Y2K: a fine example of > public folly. I have one of those but it came from the California Office of Emergency Services, over the Governor's signature. Understated. Scarily understated. There's still nothing about y2k+10. == jd From cclist at sydex.com Fri Feb 12 13:17:39 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2010 11:17:39 -0800 Subject: Y2K retrospective / was Re: Algol vs ... In-Reply-To: <4B759AF5.3080709@garlic.com> References: <17641.39335.qm@web110403.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>, , <4B759AF5.3080709@garlic.com> Message-ID: <4B7538D3.20133.94F368@cclist.sydex.com> On 12 Feb 2010 at 10:16, jd wrote: > I never heard of a whopping option for the s360. Was it useful? Could > it be used in PC's? I thought the "whopping" option applied only to the model 20. As in "whopping stupid". It's interesting to go back to the old documenation and remember how much space an operating system could take. On a 360/40, DOS could occupy all of 8K bytes--and that was with support for one background and two foreground partitions. Granted, the number of transient phases was considerable, but this hails from a time when an OS was considered to be a necessary evil that was best kept to a minimum. How far we've come! --Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Feb 12 13:04:13 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2010 19:04:13 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Dave's walls (was: Selling Calcomp 565 plotter) In-Reply-To: <2f806cd71002111443s7bb11eby6b56850f164e57eb@mail.gmail.com> from "Rob" at Feb 11, 10 10:43:18 pm Message-ID: > > >> > What is it about classic computer people and cats? > > We're brighter! > > >> People who own a cat are more likely to have a university degree than those with a pet dog, a study by Bristol University suggests. << > http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8501042.stm That piece of research seems to be a perfect illustration of something Rutherford said and which I'll now misquote : "The only possible conclusion of research in the social sciences is 'Some people do and some people don't' " :-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Feb 12 13:10:13 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2010 19:10:13 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Manual Needed In-Reply-To: <8CC79AA1704C4E9-27F8-7F3C@webmail-m063.sysops.aol.com> from "jthecman@netscape.net" at Feb 11, 10 10:24:59 pm Message-ID: > > Hello > Does anyone have a copy of the hp Draftmaster II manual for loan, sale,=20 > can make a copy of it? I don;t know if they're of any use to yuu (in that they seem to be for the Draftmaster, not the -II specifically), but there are a fair number of manuals in pdf format on http://www.hpmuseum.net. IIRC, they're under 'peripherals' and then 'pen plotters', or just select the 'documentation' link from the home page. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Feb 12 13:15:38 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2010 19:15:38 +0000 (GMT) Subject: HP-IB, Amigo/cs80 was Re: hp 9153 floppy & disk In-Reply-To: <4B757FB5.8030002@e-bbes.com> from "e.stiebler" at Feb 12, 10 09:20:05 am Message-ID: > > Al Kossow wrote: > > On 2/10/10 11:37 AM, Rik Bos wrote: > > > >> So, what you're saying is, that I should get myself a microcontroller > >> with an sd-flash and start programming Amigo/CS80 ? > >> And simply forget about the box I have here ? > > And thus the wheel is recreated again. > > How many times is this going to have to be done before someone open-sources > > this code? > > So, if I would make the hardware, how many people are interested in a > box which emulates HP-IB, Amigo/cs80 ? > I would be very interested provided (a) I can acutally build one (no BGAs, but PQFPs, SOICs, etc are no problem) and (b) it's 'open'. Although I am not much of a programmer, I'd be happy to help out where I can. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Feb 12 13:20:03 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2010 19:20:03 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Hacking a typewriter into a teletype In-Reply-To: <4B7514F8.19394.8B6F5@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Feb 12, 10 08:44:40 am Message-ID: > > On 12 Feb 2010 at 6:36, Christian Liendo wrote: > > > I figured some one on this list would find this useful. > > > > http://numist.net/post/2010/project-typewriter.html > > Didn't a number of Brother typewriter models have the capability of > also serving as printers--without modifications? I also wonder if it I think they did. I have a 'typewriter' somewhere that's a wide-carriage version of that little Alps 4-colour plotter (you know, the one that everybody used in the mid 1980s -- Tandy CGP115, Commodore 1520, etc). It has a Centronice posrt on the side and takes the same commands as said plotters. I also haev a little box in my pile of oddments that cotnains a microcontroller, has a Cntronics socket on one side and a ribbob cable ending in an adge connector coming out of it). On top is a swtich marked something like 'typewirter/computer' I assume it's an interface for some modle of electornic typewriter to turn it into a printer. > might not be better to start with a word-processor type of > typewriter. I am not so sure. I would have thought you didn't want too much intellegence i nthe machine to get in the way. -tony From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Fri Feb 12 13:46:43 2010 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2010 13:46:43 -0600 Subject: Dave's walls (was: Selling Calcomp 565 plotter) In-Reply-To: <4B741C4B.26478.5329CB@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4BB22ED0B00E46BFA46809A6AA73AEC8@xp1800>, , <2f806cd71002111443s7bb11eby6b56850f164e57eb@mail.gmail.com> <4B741C4B.26478.5329CB@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4B75B023.1070601@gmail.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > I've had cats and dogs, some at the same time. I'll take dogs any > day. Hmm, three cats and two dogs here - can't say I've really got a preference, and they've all got their little personality plusses and then things that drive me completely nuts. At this time of year they're all useful little portable space heaters, anyway :-) cheers Jules From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Feb 12 08:28:19 2010 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2010 14:28:19 -0000 Subject: Poor programming (was Re: Algol vs Fortran) References: <4b6fd060.26695.66eba@cclist.sydex.com> <6F365783BCA.000005DDn0body.h0me@inbox.com> <0A82C779-29AA-41C6-BAF2-C1571B808D0C@neurotica.com> <201002090914.28688.pat@computer-refuge.org><3690A970-A290-4EC2-A8E3-11016BB120A4@neurotica.com> <4B72E4DD.1060303@arachelian.com><016401caaaa9$39828350$78fdf93e@user8459cef6fa> <4B744F4C.5030609@arachelian.com> Message-ID: <00c801caac1c$26a88300$5216610a@user8459cef6fa> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ray Arachelian" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, February 11, 2010 6:41 PM Subject: Re: Poor programming (was Re: Algol vs Fortran) > > > I had Windows Media Player crash on me the other week and jammed CPU usage > > at 100% :( Not great on my laptop, as the only way to shut it down is to > > pull the plug out of the mains and then pull out the battery (timed > > carefully - thank god for the HD access light!). > Ouch. Well, that's not exactly well written software either. I get by > with Miro or VLC for video and Songbird, which I also use as a browser > since it's built ontop of the same engine as Firefox and can use most of > Firefox's plugins. Much nicer than itunes or anything else I've used > recently, though it takes some work to get it to be as nice as firefox. > Running this on OS X or Linux is a godsend over that other thing from > Redmond that they claim is an operating system. I've not been able to > make any app crash the OS so far in that manner, but that's just me. :-) > > > It was just as it was about > > to reload in the music file (something else I hate - why re-load in the > > music file you were just playing, especially when it's not a large file > > (<5MB)?!!) after reaching the end when the problem occured. > > > Well, I do like the ability for the apps I use to restore themselves to > the same state they were in before I quit them - saving context is a > good thing. Obviously if you had just crashed you should detect that > the app wasn't closed cleanly and give the user some options. If you've > seen the Session Manager plugin to Firefox, IMHO, the way to do right by > the user. Yes, I quite agree with you on that. When Firefox crashes (usually because of a flash plug-in) I love the fact that it gives you the option to restore it's status. However, the point I was making with WMP was that it reloads the music file each time it reaches playing the end of it. I can understand re-loading it in if WMP was shut down, crashed or not used for a long time, but to re-load in the music file before each time it is played is ludicrous. For example, if I were to play a 1 minute long song for 1 hour, it would load it in an additional 59 times after opening WMP and loading in the song. Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Fri Feb 12 13:59:46 2010 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2010 20:59:46 +0100 Subject: HP-IB, Amigo/cs80 was Re: hp 9153 floppy & disk In-Reply-To: References: <4B757FB5.8030002@e-bbes.com> from "e.stiebler" at Feb 12, 10 09:20:05 am Message-ID: > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Namens Tony Duell > Verzonden: vrijdag 12 februari 2010 20:16 > Aan: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Onderwerp: Re: HP-IB, Amigo/cs80 was Re: hp 9153 floppy & disk > > > > > Al Kossow wrote: > > > On 2/10/10 11:37 AM, Rik Bos wrote: > > > > > >> So, what you're saying is, that I should get myself a > > >> microcontroller with an sd-flash and start programming > Amigo/CS80 ? > > >> And simply forget about the box I have here ? > > > And thus the wheel is recreated again. > > > How many times is this going to have to be done before someone > > > open-sources this code? > > > > So, if I would make the hardware, how many people are > interested in a > > box which emulates HP-IB, Amigo/cs80 ? > > > > I would be very interested provided (a) I can acutally build > one (no BGAs, but PQFPs, SOICs, etc are no problem) and (b) > it's 'open'. Although I am not much of a programmer, I'd be > happy to help out where I can. And of cause I'm interested too.. -Rik From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Fri Feb 12 14:03:40 2010 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2010 21:03:40 +0100 Subject: hp 9153 floppy & disk In-Reply-To: <39780ABF985A4BA386299A2072E64709@xp1800> References: from "Rik Bos" at Feb10, 10 11:05:42 pm <39780ABF985A4BA386299A2072E64709@xp1800> Message-ID: > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Namens Rik Bos > Verzonden: donderdag 11 februari 2010 22:31 > Aan: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > Onderwerp: RE: hp 9153 floppy & disk > > > > > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > > Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Namens Tony Duell > > Verzonden: donderdag 11 februari 2010 21:48 > > Aan: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > Onderwerp: Re: hp 9153 floppy & disk > > > > > I do have a defective nighthawk if you want to try your > luck on it.. > > > (off-list) > > > > What's the problem with it? No, I am not going to try to outbid the > > OP, but I am just curious. After all, I'll probably end up > helping to > > fix it :-) > > > > Mosre seriosuly, I would stronlg suggest the OP obtains this drive. > > It'll give yo a good ideas as to what's going on. And apart > from that > > 40 pin custom chip I mentioned, the eletdonic side is not > hard to fix. > > > > Of course if it's got problems inside the HDA, it's going > to ne a lot > > harder.. > > > > -tony > > As I remember well it's not making enough speed (revs) at startup. > > -Rik And that is confirmed, the problem with the disc is not making enough speed at startup to intialize the controller. The colder the envirement the bigger the problem, warming the disc would make it start some times, I had a spare so I changed it. And now is this one 'Going to America'. -Rik > From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Feb 12 14:04:59 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2010 15:04:59 -0500 Subject: HP-IB, Amigo/cs80 was Re: hp 9153 floppy & disk In-Reply-To: References: <4B757FB5.8030002@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Feb 12, 2010 at 2:15 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> So, if I would make the hardware, how many people are interested in a >> box which emulates HP-IB, Amigo/cs80 ? > > I would be very interested provided (a) I can acutally build one (no > BGAs, but PQFPs, SOICs, etc are no problem) and (b) it's 'open'. Although > I am not much of a programmer, I'd be happy to help out where I can. How about an AVR-based box (open, no BGAs, etc) perhaps with an SD socket or CF socket, with an HPIB interface that will work with a) "real" IEEE-488 hosts and b) PET/CBM hosts which are electrically GPIB/IEEE-488, but might have some "Commodoreisms" when it comes to timing and throughput and such since they are implemented as 6502 code wiggling PIA and/or VIA I/O lines? Once you have a platform that is electrically and timing-compatible with HPs and PETs, it shouldn't matter if you choose to implement Amiga/CS80 or CBM "DOS" at the firmware level, and a generic "IEEE Disk" would be useful in a number of environments, not just HP and CBM. I wouldn't require that the same box be able to do either Amiga/CS80 and CBM DOS without a reflash, but it might not be impossible if the MCU has enough code space and perhaps a spare I/O bit to look for a configuration jumper (or even some sort of "magic" secondary address to send configuration requests to). There are several options in the PET/CBM/C64 arena for IEC (serialized IEEE), but so far, I don't know that any of the discussions or proposed projects for a parallel IEEE disk have progressed to the point of hardware you can build and firmware you can download. I'd love to have one, though. -ethan From cclist at sydex.com Fri Feb 12 14:12:01 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2010 12:12:01 -0800 Subject: Dave's walls (was: Selling Calcomp 565 plotter) In-Reply-To: <4B75B023.1070601@gmail.com> References: <4BB22ED0B00E46BFA46809A6AA73AEC8@xp1800>, <4B741C4B.26478.5329CB@cclist.sydex.com>, <4B75B023.1070601@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B754591.12195.C6BAC1@cclist.sydex.com> On 12 Feb 2010 at 13:46, Jules Richardson wrote: > At this time of year they're all useful little portable space heaters, > anyway :-) Yup, two big dogs and two humans in a bedroom allows for setting the thermostat pretty low at night... --Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Feb 12 14:19:24 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2010 20:19:24 +0000 (GMT) Subject: HP-IB, Amigo/cs80 was Re: hp 9153 floppy & disk In-Reply-To: from "Ethan Dicks" at Feb 12, 10 03:04:59 pm Message-ID: > > On Fri, Feb 12, 2010 at 2:15 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > >> So, if I would make the hardware, how many people are interested in a > >> box which emulates HP-IB, Amigo/cs80 ? > > > > I would be very interested provided (a) I can acutally build one (no > > BGAs, but PQFPs, SOICs, etc are no problem) and (b) it's 'open'. Although > > I am not much of a programmer, I'd be happy to help out where I can. > > How about an AVR-based box (open, no BGAs, etc) perhaps with an SD > socket or CF socket, with an HPIB interface that will work with a) That would seem to be a good idea. I would suggest that the HPIB interface be buffered (using either the 75160/1/2 series of chips, which would use 2 devices, or 4 off 3448 or similar.). As I mentiond a few weeks back it is a lot easier to replace a buffer chip than a microcontorller iff something goes wrong). > "real" IEEE-488 hosts and b) PET/CBM hosts which are electrically > GPIB/IEEE-488, but might have some "Commodoreisms" when it comes to > timing and throughput and such since they are implemented as 6502 code > wiggling PIA and/or VIA I/O lines? There should be no broblem with 'banging' the handshake on microcontroller port lines. HP haev been known to do this. IIRC you need a very small maount of external logic (let me check) to ensure one signal changes fast enough. It's only a couple of TTL chips, though (and common ones, like 74x00), not really worth putting in a PLD. HPIB would take 16 port lines of the microcontroller + 2 or 3 to control the buffer driection. And then you need however many port lines it takes to talk to the flash memroy device. As regards code size, IIEC, the HP9133H (SS/80 protocol) has 16K of 6809 conde in it. That should give you some idea as to the complexity. > > Once you have a platform that is electrically and timing-compatible > with HPs and PETs, it shouldn't matter if you choose to implement > Amiga/CS80 or CBM "DOS" at the firmware level, and a generic "IEEE > Disk" would be useful in a number of environments, not just HP and > CBM. I wouldn't require that the same box be able to do either > Amiga/CS80 and CBM DOS without a reflash, but it might not be The Commodore and HP command sets are very different. The major difference is that Commodore drives are file-oriented devices (you open a file by name, you can get a directory, etc), while HP devices are block oriented (you ask to read a particular block on the disk, the host OD reads the appropratie blocks to read the directory, then finds the blocks that comprise the file you want, and reads those, etc). Yes, I know the Commodore drives let you read disks at hte block level, but most of the time you didn't do that. H -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Feb 12 14:23:48 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2010 20:23:48 +0000 (GMT) Subject: hp 9153 floppy & disk In-Reply-To: from "Rik Bos" at Feb 12, 10 09:03:40 pm Message-ID: > And that is confirmed, the problem with the disc is not making enough speed > at startup to intialize the controller. The colder the envirement the bigger > the problem, warming the disc would make it start some times, I had a spare > so I changed it. > And now is this one 'Going to America'. This sounds as though it has a mechnical provlem, possibly bnearings. It's possible to remove the lower metal housing complete with the motor/control PCB. The motor state is clipped into a large hole in that PCB, the driver components are around it. The magnetic rotor comes off the spinde (obvious nut), and yoyu can remove the data PCB. But that's about as far as I've gone. Opening the HDA should be possible (it's low enough density that the head hieight is probably large enough not to requrie a very exotic clean room), but it's not going to be trivlal. I can try to measure the totrational force of my drive (e.g. by siding a string around the rotor and pulling it with a spring balance) so you can see if yours is mechanically sticking. -tony From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Fri Feb 12 14:32:24 2010 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2010 21:32:24 +0100 Subject: Algol vs Fortran was RE: VHDL vs Verilog In-Reply-To: References: <4B7393E4.4000603@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <20100212213224.eb29ff08.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Thu, 11 Feb 2010 09:56:03 -0700 Richard wrote: > C++ is a tactical nuclear weapon. > > You don't give tactical nukes to a cadet. :-) http://classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/2008-July/259890.html -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From IanK at vulcan.com Fri Feb 12 14:39:13 2010 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2010 12:39:13 -0800 Subject: Y2K retrospective / was Re: Algol vs ... In-Reply-To: <17641.39335.qm@web110403.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <17641.39335.qm@web110403.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Russ Bartlett > Sent: Friday, February 12, 2010 9:19 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Y2K retrospective / was Re: Algol vs ... > [snip] > > In the early days when we wrote programs they were written onto coding > forms.? Once punched onto 80 column cards we would check each card to > ensure that had been key punched correctly.? Checking an 8000 > statement? program took time.? Once checked we would have it listed > (used little machine time).? We would then dry run through the program > looking for logic errors.? Having done that we would have it compiled. > Typically there would be a couple of development slots or so a week for > testing so we had ensure that we had done due diligence.? If it > compiled we would schedule a test slot and run against test data. > Debugging consisted of analyzing dumps and correcting the code. > Contrast this against interactive source debuggers.? Today machine time > is inexpensive and many compiles and test shots may be performed in a > day.? "Workbench" tools allow the programmer to run > their program without even hitting the mainframe.? A totally different > world. > And yet, despite those inexpensive tools and resources, one of my most persistent challenges as a test manager at a certain large software company was to convince developers that they should do local builds (which could be done incrementally) before checking in their changes. Some devs were good about 'buddy builds' and the like, but usually only after some test manager they had encountered in their careers managed to convince them that the small amount of time it took to do a build was minimal cost compared to the productivity hit of a broken main build. One of the tactics I used to educate one team was a public recognition of 'he/she who broke the build' - a rubber chicken hung from that dev's office relight until either the end of a week or until someone else broke the build. One dev came to my office steaming mad about it - he thought this was childish and a waste of his time. I pointed out that by breaking the build, he was wasting *everyone's* time, including his and mine. He eventually became one my staunchest supporters regarding QA practices. And yes, I had my experience with punched cards - FORTRAN IV. One of the best habits I ever developed was sequence numbers. -- Ian From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Feb 12 15:16:29 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2010 16:16:29 -0500 Subject: HP-IB, Amigo/cs80 was Re: hp 9153 floppy & disk In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Feb 12, 2010 at 3:19 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> How about an AVR-based box (open, no BGAs, etc) perhaps with an SD >> socket or CF socket, with an HPIB interface that will work with a) > > That would seem to be a good idea. > > I would suggest that the HPIB interface be buffered (using either the > 75160/1/2 series of chips, which would use 2 devices, or 4 off 3448 or > similar.). ?As I mentiond a few weeks back it is a lot easier to replace > a buffer chip than a microcontorller iff something goes wrong). I'm all in favor of buffered devices - especially since CBM machines quickly grow to 1-2 disk devices and a printer, at least, if you are using real hardware (vs just imaging old floppies). Is there really a significant advantage, cost or availability, between 75160/1/2s and 3448s? I've seen both used in 1970s and 1980s IEEE-488 devices and have no personal preferences either way. > There should be no broblem with 'banging' the handshake on > microcontroller port lines. HP haev been known to do this. IIRC you need > a very small maount of external logic (let me check) to ensure one signal > changes fast enough. It's only a couple of TTL chips, though (and common > ones, like 74x00), not really worth putting in a PLD. I do recall seeing something like that in discussions on the CBM Hackers' list - a gate or two to flip a signal faster than a 1MHz processor can do in software. > HPIB would take 16 port lines of the microcontroller + 2 or 3 to control > the buffer driection. And then you need however many port lines it takes > to talk to the flash memroy device. If it's quick enough, you _could_ use an 8-bit shift register for input and/or output, reducing the MCU pincount substantially, but that would probably only be important if you were trying to keep the MCU below the size of the 40/44-pin varieties. > As regards code size, IIEC, the HP9133H (SS/80 protocol) has 16K of 6809 > conde in it. That should give you some idea as to the complexity. That does. Even a $4 AVR has 16K of code space these days. >> Once you have a platform that is electrically and timing-compatible >> with HPs and PETs, it shouldn't matter if you choose to implement >> Amiga/CS80 or CBM "DOS" at the firmware level... > The Commodore and HP command sets are very different. The major > difference is that Commodore drives are file-oriented devices (you open a > file by name, you can get a directory, etc), while HP devices are block > oriented. Yes. In terms of complexity, the CBM command set encompasses the functionality of the HP command set. If you coded for the PET, I don't think it would be hard to have it also do Amiga/CS80, but I'd have to examine the HP technique since I've never worked with it. > Yes, I know the Commodore drives let you read disks at hte block level, but most > of the time you didn't do that. H It depends on what you are doing. I've written many disk utilities that "understand" the block-level format to do things like undelete files, etc. 95%+ of what CBM users do though is, as you point out, at the file level. You have to implement memory read and write commands (M-R, M-W) to do things like change unit numbers, so I would consider a strict files-only implementation to be incomplete. Armed with disk buffer requirements (CBM drives allow the machine to open multiple simultaneous sector buffers and read/write them - a feature which *does* get use) and I/O line requirements, it should be easy to narrow down the field to a handful of MCU candidates... http://www.atmel.com/dyn/products/param_table.asp?family_id=604&OrderBy=part_no&Direction=ASC No BGAs in sight, but there are TQFPs and VQFNs in there. -ethan From trag at io.com Fri Feb 12 15:30:17 2010 From: trag at io.com (Jeff Walther) Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2010 15:30:17 -0600 (CST) Subject: OT: Datasheet for Motorola MCM62940 32K X 9 SRAM? Message-ID: <25b4e7c278299260ffe39fb3214358cb.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com> Anyone have a datasheet for the MCM62940 (MCM62940AFN14) static RAM? It's not strictly off topic, as it's from the 256K level 2 cache of a computer from the mid-90s (NuBus PPC Macintoshes). The usual web searches have failed me. I thought I had downloaded it years ago, but it turns out I only collected the datasheet for the TAG SRAM and not for the cache chips. This is particularly interesting because one can get 4000 of the chips (soldered to boards) for about $50. I have a couple of projects in mind where they might be useful. On the other hand, they do take up a lot of board real estate (about .75" square). Jeff Walther From IanK at vulcan.com Fri Feb 12 15:51:21 2010 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2010 13:51:21 -0800 Subject: ASR-33 (was Re: Selling Calcomp 565 plotter) In-Reply-To: <4B722991.2050603@mail.msu.edu> References: <201002021239.53154.pat@computer-refuge.org> <36C3D71D-EC51-4CC0-9ED4-5D59122AEFED@neurotica.com> <4B6F74B6.4050708@hachti.de> <201002090928.03169.pat@computer-refuge.org> <4B718D8D.4070201@hachti.de> <4B722991.2050603@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Josh Dersch > Sent: Tuesday, February 09, 2010 7:36 PM > To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: ASR-33 (was Re: Selling Calcomp 565 plotter) > > Dave McGuire wrote: > > On Feb 9, 2010, at 4:20 PM, William Donzelli wrote: > >> Oh, and I found my new in box ASR-33 today. Any takers? > > > > Holy cow!! > > > > That reminds me -- saw a complete ASR-33 w/pedestal mount in an antique > store in Seattle over the weekend. Looked to be in decent condition > (obviously no idea if it's in working order). I believe they wanted > just around $300, which seemed a bit spendy for my tastes, but I > thought > I'd mention it in case anyone in the area was interested. > > Address: > Pacific Galleries > 241 South Lander Street, Seattle, WA 98134 > He came, he shopped, he scored! This machine is now in its new home at the Living Computer Museum. It's in beautiful cosmetic shape and is surprisingly clean inside, showing evidence of low hours. The only issue with the machine is that its keyboard is stuck and needs to be lubricated - SOP, according to our resident expert. We plan to hook this up to the PDP-8/e we have on the exhibit floor. Hey Josh, thanks for sharing! -- Ian From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Feb 12 15:55:50 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2010 16:55:50 -0500 Subject: ASR-33 (was Re: Selling Calcomp 565 plotter) In-Reply-To: References: <201002021239.53154.pat@computer-refuge.org> <36C3D71D-EC51-4CC0-9ED4-5D59122AEFED@neurotica.com> <4B6F74B6.4050708@hachti.de> <201002090928.03169.pat@computer-refuge.org> <4B718D8D.4070201@hachti.de> <4B722991.2050603@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, Feb 12, 2010 at 4:51 PM, Ian King wrote: >> That reminds me -- saw a complete ASR-33 w/pedestal mount in an antique >> store in Seattle over the weekend... > > He came, he shopped, he scored! ?This machine is now in its new home at the Living Computer Museum. ?It's in beautiful cosmetic shape and is surprisingly clean inside, showing evidence of low hours. ?The only issue with the machine is that its keyboard is stuck and needs to be lubricated - SOP, according to our resident expert. Nicely done! I've done a little ASR-33 maintenance over the years - cleaning, lubricating (with real oil!) and a few specific adjustments take care of many common issues. I've only rarely had to do more (like replace the hammer pad after it turns into a gooey jellybean). > We plan to hook this up to the PDP-8/e we have on the exhibit floor. Cool. Pictures?!? -ethan From gmeanie at gmail.com Fri Feb 12 14:20:54 2010 From: gmeanie at gmail.com (GreenMeanie) Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2010 15:20:54 -0500 Subject: IMSAI / SOL-20 / Northstar + much other for sale Message-ID: <3EC2EB82-D8D3-47B2-9F06-850B60289445@gmail.com> Any of those old computers left? From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Feb 12 16:09:09 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2010 22:09:09 +0000 (GMT) Subject: HP-IB, Amigo/cs80 was Re: hp 9153 floppy & disk In-Reply-To: from "Ethan Dicks" at Feb 12, 10 04:16:29 pm Message-ID: > > On Fri, Feb 12, 2010 at 3:19 PM, Tony Duell wrote= > : > >> How about an AVR-based box (open, no BGAs, etc) perhaps with an SD > >> socket or CF socket, with an HPIB interface that will work with a) > > > > That would seem to be a good idea. > > > > I would suggest that the HPIB interface be buffered (using either the > > 75160/1/2 series of chips, which would use 2 devices, or 4 off 3448 or > > similar.). =A0As I mentiond a few weeks back it is a lot easier to replac= > e > > a buffer chip than a microcontorller iff something goes wrong). > > I'm all in favor of buffered devices - especially since CBM machines > quickly grow to 1-2 disk devices and a printer, at least, if you are > using real hardware (vs just imaging old floppies). And HP set-ups might have even more devices (HP made a lot of nice HPIB peripehrals, the 5930x series, for example). > > Is there really a significant advantage, cost or availability, between > 75160/1/2s and 3448s? I've seen both used in 1970s and 1980s IEEE-488 > devices and have no personal preferences either way. I can't comment on the cont, I've not bought these chips for many years. I remember seeing the 75160 listed by, IIRC, Digikey recently, so I guess it's still easily avaialble. The difference is hat the 7516x devices contain 8 buffers. The 75160 has a common dirextion line, and is usd for the 8 data lines. The 75161 has direction control set up so the buffer can be used in a device, or, IIRC as the system controller, but not as a 'second' controller. The 75162 can operate in all 3 ways, A 75161 should eb enough for the disk emulator, but the 75162 might be easier to find. The 3448, etc, contain 4 buffers. 4 of them can be used as a device, controller, or system controller interface. You may need a little external logic 9or exra port pins) so as to get DAV and NRFD/NDAC going in oposite directions. > > > There should be no broblem with 'banging' the handshake on > > microcontroller port lines. HP haev been known to do this. IIRC you need > > a very small maount of external logic (let me check) to ensure one signal > > changes fast enough. It's only a couple of TTL chips, though (and common > > ones, like 74x00), not really worth putting in a PLD. > > I do recall seeing something like that in discussions on the CBM > Hackers' list - a gate or two to flip a signal faster than a 1MHz > processor can do in software. Exactly. If /when we get to this stage in the design I will see what HP did in soem of their software-implemented HPIB units. > > > HPIB would take 16 port lines of the microcontroller + 2 or 3 to control > > the buffer driection. And then you need however many port lines it takes > > to talk to the flash memroy device. > > If it's quick enough, you _could_ use an 8-bit shift register for > input and/or output, reducing the MCU pincount substantially, but that > would probably only be important if you were trying to keep the MCU > below the size of the 40/44-pin varieties. 40 pin microcontorllers may have 32 port lines (4 8 bit ports) IIRC. That should eb easily enough -- 8 data lines for HPIB, 8 control lines for HPIB and 3 driection cotnrol ines would still leave 11 lines free. IIRC some of the flash memory card things have an SPI-like serial interfacewhich needs 3 or 4 lines. I would prefer a microcontroller that could be socketed (DIP or PLCC, possibly) since it's easier to hand-wire the prototype board. But it's not essential. > > > As regards code size, IIEC, the HP9133H (SS/80 protocol) has 16K of 6809 > > conde in it. That should give you some idea as to the complexity. > > That does. Even a $4 AVR has 16K of code space these days. I suspect that 6809 code is a bit more efficient than many microcontroller codes. But these days memory space is probably not a major problem. > > >> Once you have a platform that is electrically and timing-compatible > >> with HPs and PETs, it shouldn't matter if you choose to implement > >> Amiga/CS80 or CBM "DOS" at the firmware level... > > > The Commodore and HP command sets are very different. The major > > difference is that Commodore drives are file-oriented devices (you open a > > file by name, you can get a directory, etc), while HP devices are block > > oriented. > > Yes. In terms of complexity, the CBM command set encompasses the > functionality of the HP command set. If you coded for the PET, I HP have all sorts of indentification, status, etc, commands. It's not a totally trivial command set to implement. > don't think it would be hard to have it also do Amiga/CS80, but I'd > have to examine the HP technique since I've never worked with it. You need to hunt through some of the manuals on hpmuseum.net. If I have time I'll see if I can identify manuals that document the 3 main command sets. > > > Yes, I know the Commodore drives let you read disks at hte block level, b= > ut most > > of the time you didn't do that. H > > It depends on what you are doing. I've written many disk utilities Oh sure. I was thinking of rthe average user, loading and saving BASIC programs, etc. > that "understand" the block-level format to do things like undelete > files, etc. 95%+ of what CBM users do though is, as you point out, at > the file level. You have to implement memory read and write commands > (M-R, M-W) to do things like change unit numbers, so I would consider > a strict files-only implementation to be incomplete. I would agree. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Feb 12 16:18:31 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2010 22:18:31 +0000 (GMT) Subject: ASR-33 (was Re: Selling Calcomp 565 plotter) In-Reply-To: from "Ethan Dicks" at Feb 12, 10 04:55:50 pm Message-ID: > Nicely done! I've done a little ASR-33 maintenance over the years - > cleaning, lubricating (with real oil!) and a few specific adjustments > take care of many common issues. I've only rarely had to do more > (like replace the hammer pad after it turns into a gooey jellybean). > I reparied my first ASR33 over 25 years ago. At the time I didn't have the 3 grey books, so I just took it completely apart, figured out how it should work, cleaned all the parts, put oil in the appropriate places, and put it back toguther. I still remeebr goign rounf all the local tool shops looking for a 9/64" allen key (used for the bolts hold the rear carriage rail in place) -- this is a common size in the States, but not included in most UK sets. No it didn;'t work first time. I had the print supression linkage way out of adjustment, so it tried to print something even when it received a control code. The second ASR33 I repaired was a lot easier. Firstly because I had the experience amd secondly becuase I had the manuals... -tony From legalize at xmission.com Fri Feb 12 16:27:38 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2010 15:27:38 -0700 Subject: Poor programming (was Re: Algol vs Fortran) In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 12 Feb 2010 14:28:19 +0000. <00c801caac1c$26a88300$5216610a@user8459cef6fa> Message-ID: In article <00c801caac1c$26a88300$5216610a at user8459cef6fa>, "Andrew Burton" writes: > Yes, I quite agree with you on that. When Firefox crashes (usually because > of a flash plug-in) I love the fact that it gives you the option to restore > it's status. IE8 does the same. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From ian_primus at yahoo.com Fri Feb 12 16:49:59 2010 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2010 14:49:59 -0800 (PST) Subject: Separating a Vax 11/780 from it's peripheral cabinet... Message-ID: <477457.27098.qm@web52608.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Anyone happen to know how the Vax 11/780 and the single-wide corporate peripheral cabinet are joined together? The Vax has good casters, the peripheral cabinet has stupid casters, and they're joined at the hip. Are there hidden bolts or latches, or some kind of joiner panel like on the 11/750? -Ian From IanK at vulcan.com Fri Feb 12 16:53:43 2010 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2010 14:53:43 -0800 Subject: Separating a Vax 11/780 from it's peripheral cabinet... In-Reply-To: <477457.27098.qm@web52608.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <477457.27098.qm@web52608.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: There are bolts you can reach from the inside of the CPU cabinet on the right (as you're facing it) and from the inside of the peripheral cabinet on its left. They're right where you'd expect, around the edges. There's an installation manual on Bitsavers that has pictures. -- Ian -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Mr Ian Primus Sent: Friday, February 12, 2010 2:50 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Separating a Vax 11/780 from it's peripheral cabinet... Anyone happen to know how the Vax 11/780 and the single-wide corporate peripheral cabinet are joined together? The Vax has good casters, the peripheral cabinet has stupid casters, and they're joined at the hip. Are there hidden bolts or latches, or some kind of joiner panel like on the 11/750? -Ian From legalize at xmission.com Fri Feb 12 17:03:39 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2010 16:03:39 -0700 Subject: Fwd: [comp.sys.dec] BASIC-Plus-2 Message-ID: This message has been forwarded from Usenet. To reply to the original author, use the email address from the forwarded message. Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2010 15:18:22 -0500 Groups: comp.sys.dec From: "Tom Lake" Org: albasani.net Subject: BASIC-Plus-2 Id: ======== I'm running RSTS/E on the SIMH PDP-11 emulator and it works fine. It only has BASIC-Plus, though. Is there somewhere I can get a disk or tape image of BASIC-Plus-2? Me ntec was swallowed up and the new owners don't want to know from PDP-11. TIA Tom Lake From ian_primus at yahoo.com Fri Feb 12 17:14:21 2010 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2010 15:14:21 -0800 (PST) Subject: Separating a Vax 11/780 from it's peripheral cabinet... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <176745.39334.qm@web52608.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- On Fri, 2/12/10, Ian King wrote: > There are bolts you can reach from > the inside of the CPU cabinet on the right (as you're facing > it) and from the inside of the peripheral cabinet on its > left.? They're right where you'd expect, around the > edges.? There's an installation manual on Bitsavers > that has pictures.? -- Ian Good to know it's as straightforward as it should be. This is one of those "Haven't seen it yet, but we are gonna need to figure out how it comes apart..." kind of questions. I'll see if I can find the installation manual. -Ian From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Feb 12 17:39:21 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2010 15:39:21 -0800 (PST) Subject: Y2K retrospective / was Re: Algol vs ... In-Reply-To: <59933B3C325A4CE5AF75265DEE326C14@udvikling> References: <17641.39335.qm@web110403.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <59933B3C325A4CE5AF75265DEE326C14@udvikling> Message-ID: <20100212153603.C58405@shell.lmi.net> > The smalles mainframe I used in the 70's, was an IBM 360/25. It was > equipped with a whopping. When I developped a program for statistics, the Was a whopping a costly add-on? Did the WOPR have one? From RichA at vulcan.com Fri Feb 12 17:45:41 2010 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2010 15:45:41 -0800 Subject: Y2K retrospective / was Re: Algol vs ... In-Reply-To: <20100212153603.C58405@shell.lmi.net> References: <17641.39335.qm@web110403.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <59933B3C325A4CE5AF75265DEE326C14@udvikling> <20100212153603.C58405@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: From: Fred Cisin Sent: Friday, February 12, 2010 3:39 PM >> The smalles mainframe I used in the 70's, was an IBM 360/25. It was >> equipped with a whopping. When I developped a program for statistics, the > Was a whopping a costly add-on? > Did the WOPR have one? No, but it had a big MAC address. From lynchaj at yahoo.com Fri Feb 12 17:53:48 2010 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2010 18:53:48 -0500 Subject: S-100 home brew PCB projects Message-ID: <5810593689964166978AB95D40D569A2@andrewdesktop> Hi! John Monahan and I are making some S-100 home brew PCB projects. The S-100 backplane, S-100 prototyping board, and S-100 buffered prototyping board projects are essentially done. I am gathering up those who would like any of those boards and when there is sufficient interest I'll make a manufactured PCB order. We nearly done with the S-100 IDE and S-100 keyboard projects. Both projects have been prototyped, manufactured PCBs made, and are demonstrated working. However, there are a few minor issues we'd like to clear up on both projects and are considering respins of those PCBs. If anyone is interested in those projects please let me know so I can make an order. The PCBs typically are in the $20-$30 range depending on quantity. There is an S-100 SRAM/EPROM prototype PCB in the build and test phase and an S-100 Front Panel in design phase. No estimate on when either of those will be done but it will be quite a while since we are making local prototype PCBs first before ordering manufactured PCBs. Thanks and have a nice day! Andrew Lynch From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Fri Feb 12 17:59:10 2010 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2010 23:59:10 -0000 Subject: [comp.sys.dec] BASIC-Plus-2 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <002101caac3f$5fe80a00$1fb81e00$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> I run Basic-Plus-2 on the SIMH PDP-10 emulation running TOPS-20. I seem to remember getting the virtual tape from http://pdp-10.trailing-edge.com/. That site also has PDP-11 software, so you may find it there. Regards Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Richard > Sent: 12 February 2010 23:04 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Fwd: [comp.sys.dec] BASIC-Plus-2 > > > This message has been forwarded from Usenet. To reply to the > original author, use the email address from the forwarded message. > > Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2010 15:18:22 -0500 > Groups: comp.sys.dec > From: "Tom Lake" > Org: albasani.net > Subject: BASIC-Plus-2 > Id: > ======== > I'm running RSTS/E on the SIMH PDP-11 emulator and it works fine. It > only has > BASIC-Plus, > though. Is there somewhere I can get a disk or tape image of BASIC- > Plus-2? Me > ntec was > swallowed up and the new owners don't want to know from PDP-11. > > TIA > > Tom Lake From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Fri Feb 12 18:17:08 2010 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2010 16:17:08 -0800 Subject: OT: Datasheet for Motorola MCM62940 32K X 9 SRAM? References: <25b4e7c278299260ffe39fb3214358cb.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com> Message-ID: <4B75EF84.2D53F4B6@cs.ubc.ca> Jeff Walther wrote: > > Anyone have a datasheet for the MCM62940 (MCM62940AFN14) static RAM? It's > not strictly off topic, as it's from the 256K level 2 cache of a computer > from the mid-90s (NuBus PPC Macintoshes). > > The usual web searches have failed me. I thought I had downloaded it > years ago, but it turns out I only collected the datasheet for the TAG > SRAM and not for the cache chips. > > This is particularly interesting because one can get 4000 of the chips > (soldered to boards) for about $50. > > > I have a couple of projects in mind where they might be useful. On the > other hand, they do take up a lot of board real estate (about .75" > square). I have the Motorola 1995 Fast Static RAM databook, containing the datasheet for the MCM62940A and B devices. 32K * 9 BurstRAM Synchronous Static RAM with Burst Counter and Self-Timed Write I can: - send you the entire databook for the cost of shipping from Vancouver, B.C. (happy to send it somewhere it will be useful) - send you a photocopy of the relevant pages, or scan if I can get near a scanner in the near future, - extract some pertinent data to you. From cclist at sydex.com Fri Feb 12 18:46:58 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2010 16:46:58 -0800 Subject: OT: Datasheet for Motorola MCM62940 32K X 9 SRAM? In-Reply-To: <25b4e7c278299260ffe39fb3214358cb.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com> References: <25b4e7c278299260ffe39fb3214358cb.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com> Message-ID: <4B758602.12833.B92E9D@cclist.sydex.com> On 12 Feb 2010 at 15:30, Jeff Walther wrote: > Anyone have a datasheet for the MCM62940 (MCM62940AFN14) static RAM? > It's not strictly off topic, as it's from the 256K level 2 cache of a > computer from the mid-90s (NuBus PPC Macintoshes). Apparently, the MCM62486 is pin compatible and there are datasheets for that online: http://pdf.chinaicmart.com/86B/MCM62486BFN11_1159896.pdf --Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Feb 12 18:57:55 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2010 16:57:55 -0800 (PST) Subject: Algol vs Fortran was RE: VHDL vs Verilog In-Reply-To: <20100212213224.eb29ff08.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <4B7393E4.4000603@mail.msu.edu> <20100212213224.eb29ff08.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <20100212165409.H61782@shell.lmi.net> > C++ is a tactical nuclear weapon. > > You don't give tactical nukes to a cadet. :-) I have NEVER seen a C++ compiler for the 1620. The PDQ FORTRAN and the 1401 emulator were far from nuclear. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From ken at seefried.com Fri Feb 12 19:05:43 2010 From: ken at seefried.com (Ken Seefried) Date: Sat, 13 Feb 2010 01:05:43 +0000 Subject: Dave's walls (was: Selling Calcomp 565 plotter) Message-ID: "Chuck Guzis" wrote: > >Fur critters, huh? I'm fighting a running battle with some nutria >that keep invading my pond, but they are definitely not "cute". > They are, however, reasonably tasty when properly prepared, so there's a way to deal with that situation. KJ From cclist at sydex.com Fri Feb 12 19:15:37 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2010 17:15:37 -0800 Subject: Algol vs Fortran was RE: VHDL vs Verilog In-Reply-To: <20100212165409.H61782@shell.lmi.net> References: <4B7393E4.4000603@mail.msu.edu>, <20100212213224.eb29ff08.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>, <20100212165409.H61782@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4B758CB9.81.D3686C@cclist.sydex.com> On 12 Feb 2010 at 16:57, Fred Cisin wrote: > I have NEVER seen a C++ compiler for the 1620. Very clever, Fred! --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Fri Feb 12 19:20:16 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2010 17:20:16 -0800 Subject: Dave's walls (was: Selling Calcomp 565 plotter) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B758DD0.30919.D7ACB5@cclist.sydex.com> On 13 Feb 2010 at 1:05, Ken Seefried wrote: > They are, however, reasonably tasty when properly prepared, so there's > a way to deal with that situation. I've heard the same thing about squirrels. Dredge in an egg wash and breadcrumbs, bake in a moderate oven. But nutria look too much like big rats to me. --Chuck From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Fri Feb 12 19:35:30 2010 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2010 17:35:30 -0800 Subject: Algol vs Fortran was RE: VHDL vs Verilog References: <4B7393E4.4000603@mail.msu.edu>, <20100212213224.eb29ff08.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>, <20100212165409.H61782@shell.lmi.net> <4B758CB9.81.D3686C@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4B7601E1.C3E930C5@cs.ubc.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote: > > On 12 Feb 2010 at 16:57, Fred Cisin wrote: > > > I have NEVER seen a C++ compiler for the 1620. > > Very clever, Fred! .. Took me a while. That I was able to get it was due only to the references to the 1620 you and others have made on the list previously. From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Feb 12 19:47:06 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2010 17:47:06 -0800 (PST) Subject: Algol vs Fortran was RE: In-Reply-To: <4B7601E1.C3E930C5@cs.ubc.ca> References: <4B7393E4.4000603@mail.msu.edu>, <20100212213224.eb29ff08.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>, <20100212165409.H61782@shell.lmi.net> <4B758CB9.81.D3686C@cclist.sydex.com> <4B7601E1.C3E930C5@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <20100212174315.T61782@shell.lmi.net> [C++ is tactical nuclear; don't give tactical nuclear to a CADET) > > > I have NEVER seen a C++ compiler for the 1620. On Fri, 12 Feb 2010, Brent Hilpert wrote: > .. Took me a while. That I was able to get it was due only to the references to > the 1620 you and others have made on the list previously. Sorry, couldn't resist, even though not everybody knows that the 1620 was also called "CADET" (Can't Add, Doesn't Even Try) From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Feb 12 23:57:03 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 13 Feb 2010 00:57:03 -0500 Subject: Separating a Vax 11/780 from it's peripheral cabinet... In-Reply-To: <176745.39334.qm@web52608.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <176745.39334.qm@web52608.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > Good to know it's as straightforward as it should be. This is one of those "Haven't seen it yet, but we are gonna need to figure out how it comes apart..." kind of questions. I'll see if I can find the installation manual. So bring a socket set. They look 1/4-20 or thereabouts. There is probably a cable we will also need to deal with, that connects the VAX to the MAP. -- Will From IanK at vulcan.com Sat Feb 13 01:28:51 2010 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2010 23:28:51 -0800 Subject: Separating a Vax 11/780 from it's peripheral cabinet... In-Reply-To: References: <176745.39334.qm@web52608.mail.re2.yahoo.com>, Message-ID: You hit the size on the head, 1/4-20. There are three ribbon cables and one small Molex connector. I recommend labeling the ribbon cables as you remove them (if they aren't already), or you're going to be tracing through a rat's maze to get them right again. -- Ian ________________________________________ From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of William Donzelli [wdonzelli at gmail.com] Sent: Friday, February 12, 2010 9:57 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Separating a Vax 11/780 from it's peripheral cabinet... > Good to know it's as straightforward as it should be. This is one of those "Haven't seen it yet, but we are gonna need to figure out how it comes apart..." kind of questions. I'll see if I can find the installation manual. So bring a socket set. They look 1/4-20 or thereabouts. There is probably a cable we will also need to deal with, that connects the VAX to the MAP. -- Will From spedraja at ono.com Sat Feb 13 02:19:25 2010 From: spedraja at ono.com (SPC) Date: Sat, 13 Feb 2010 09:19:25 +0100 Subject: Hacking a typewriter into a teletype In-Reply-To: <905687.22685.qm@web113508.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <905687.22685.qm@web113508.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Very interesting. Could it be possible to do it with other models ? Regards ---------- http://es.linkedin.com/in/sergiopedraja 2010/2/12 Christian Liendo > I figured some one on this list would find this useful. > > http://numist.net/post/2010/project-typewriter.html > > > > From steerex at ccvn.com Fri Feb 12 21:04:38 2010 From: steerex at ccvn.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2010 22:04:38 -0500 Subject: HP-IB, Amigo/cs80 was Re: hp 9153 floppy & disk References: <4B757FB5.8030002@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: <002501caac59$47c59b80$0301a8c0@win2k> > > I am not much of a programmer, I'd be happy to help out where I can. > > How about an AVR-based box (open, no BGAs, etc) perhaps with an SD > socket or CF socket, with an HPIB interface that will work with a) > "real" IEEE-488 hosts and b) PET/CBM hosts which are electrically > GPIB/IEEE-488, but might have some "Commodoreisms" when it comes to > timing and throughput and such since they are implemented as 6502 code > wiggling PIA and/or VIA I/O lines? > > Once you have a platform that is electrically and timing-compatible > with HPs and PETs, it shouldn't matter if you choose to implement > Amiga/CS80 or CBM "DOS" at the firmware level, and a generic "IEEE > Disk" would be useful in a number of environments, not just HP and > CBM. I wouldn't require that the same box be able to do either > Amiga/CS80 and CBM DOS without a reflash, but it might not be > impossible if the MCU has enough code space and perhaps a spare I/O > bit to look for a configuration jumper (or even some sort of "magic" > secondary address to send configuration requests to). > > There are several options in the PET/CBM/C64 arena for IEC (serialized > IEEE), but so far, I don't know that any of the discussions or > proposed projects for a parallel IEEE disk have progressed to the > point of hardware you can build and firmware you can download. > I've been tinkering with this idea for quite some time and have a couple of observations. The project I'm been pondering would use AVR micro along with an IDE disk to emulate a CS80 drive. The IDE interface is pretty simple although like the HPIB it does requires a lot of I/O lines. Between all the handshaking and control signals with the IDE and HPIB devices, it would require a TON of I/O. Either that or you have to do some fancy muxing of the I/O. So, to make the HPIB control simpler, I'd prefer to use a HPIB controller chip like the NEC7210. That chip just hangs on an 8-bit bus and uses internal registers to free up some of the I/O lines on the micro. The biggest problem is finding a reliable supply of HPIB controller chips. My solution to this would be to break this project in to two separate smaller projects. Firstly, use a separate microprocessor to emulate the 7210 controller chip. This would provide several advantages: 1.) You wouldn't need to worry about the supply of 7210's for future projects. Simply burn a $4 AVR and you have a HPIB controller chip. 2.) The dedicated controller would handle all the low-level interface stuff, the signaling, BUS timing, etc... So, programming would be much simpler. You just read and write to the AVR controller "registers" just like you would a 7210. 3.) The 75160/1 pairs are still available. I think DIGIKEY has them in stock at a reasonable price. Note that these are not "just" I/O buffers. There are a few additional gates in the devices that add some more logic that one might expect. So, the AVR could eliminate the need for the 75160/1 bus driver chips. If you fry a $4 AVR... Who cares? It doesn't cost much more than the dedicated drivers. Hmmm... The more I think about this, the less certain I am about eliminating the 75160/1 pairs. Normally, one would know what direction data was moving on a bus. But with HPIB, it can be ambigious. IE: A device might assert a SRQ (service request) at the same time another device is receiving data. So... What direction is the data moving on the bus. The talker is asserting some of the control lines, the listener is asserting some of the lines (NFRD, etc), and a third device might be asserting some lines. Hmmm. I gotta give this a little more thought. 4.) You might be able to build a simple "adapter" board and use the AVR in place of hard-to-find 7210's in existing equipment. 5.) Modifying the project for other purposes would be much easier. For instance, you could use the same project with some code modifications to emulate a HPIB tape drive, a HPIB instrument, a bus analyzer, etc... Just a few quick observations. See yas, SteveRob From andyh at andyh-rayleigh.freeserve.co.uk Fri Feb 12 23:59:08 2010 From: andyh at andyh-rayleigh.freeserve.co.uk (Andy Holt) Date: Sat, 13 Feb 2010 05:59:08 -0000 Subject: Y2K retrospective / was Re: Algol vs ... In-Reply-To: <17641.39335.qm@web110403.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <17641.39335.qm@web110403.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: >>>> Now the more sophisticated systems - of which the British ICT (ICL) was one - used an offset to hold dates.? The ICL 1900 range? used a technique of holding the number of days since the Jan 1st 1900 <<<< Except that they made a minor blunder ... Originally it had been defined that Day 0 was Jan 1st 1900 Then - after lots of such dates were "in the field" - someone discovered that 1900 was not a leap year. (probably the first well-informed person to write their own date-conversion routine who wondered why their code produced different results from the system standard) The only reasonable solution was to redefine Jan 1st 1900 as Day 1 so all dates from Mar 1st 1900 onwards remained unchanged. Andy From dm561 at torfree.net Sat Feb 13 03:01:31 2010 From: dm561 at torfree.net (MikeS) Date: Sat, 13 Feb 2010 04:01:31 -0500 Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 78, Issue 17 References: Message-ID: Message: 12 Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2010 08:44:40 -0800 From: "Chuck Guzis" Subject: Re: Hacking a typewriter into a teletype To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Message-ID: <4B7514F8.19394.8B6F5 at cclist.sydex.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII On 12 Feb 2010 at 6:36, Christian Liendo wrote: > I figured some one on this list would find this useful. > > http://numist.net/post/2010/project-typewriter.html Didn't a number of Brother typewriter models have the capability of also serving as printers--without modifications? I also wonder if it might not be better to start with a word-processor type of typewriter. Mr. Obvious on the web page stated: "it also revealed that avr-gcc's code generation is very poorly optimized" --Chuck ----------------Reply: There's a genuine Brother computer>typewriter RO interface for sale right now ($5) on the Vintage Computer auction site. And if anyone wants to convert an Olivetti typewriter, I still have a box full of interfaces for several models from the days when I was involved in their sales and support. mike From roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk Sat Feb 13 05:53:37 2010 From: roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk (Roger Holmes) Date: Sat, 13 Feb 2010 11:53:37 +0000 Subject: YouTube video of ICT1301 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5B58DCDF-D0DD-4988-9E45-4C4A8173FF7E@microspot.co.uk> On 12 Feb 2010, at 18:00, cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > > Message: 11 > Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2010 15:59:49 +0000 > From: Pete Edwards > Subject: Re: The value of assembler language programmers [was RE: > Algol vs Fortran was RE: VHDL vs Verilog] > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Message-ID: > <11c909eb1002120759u37cef5e6x4d7e5470b6678d56 at mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > On 12 February 2010 08:00, Dave McGuire wrote: >> On Feb 10, 2010, at 3:15 PM, Roger Holmes wrote: >>> >>> the BBC web site. Oh and a couple of weeks ago I posted an old video of it >>> on U-Tube if anyone is interested the URL is >>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VsBPuUJPvKg or just Google ICT 1301 and >>> select video. I hope to post a better one later in the year. >> >> ?Man oh MAN that's a beautiful machine. >> >> ? ? ? ? -Dave >> > > Seconded! That's an awesome piece of kit Roger. > I *especially* like the Forbidden Planet noises at the end. > What is that audio signal derived from? Thanks to all who responded, I think you will like it even more when you see the new layout with 8 decks in a row, four of which worked at last years open day. The sound is produced by executing a very small loop of three or four instructions many times which contains a (decimal) multiply instruction, the duration of which varies with one of its operands. Zero takes almost no time, 555555555555 takes longest because for each digit it can either count down for 1,2,3,4 or 5 or count up for 6,7,8 and 9. There is an increment in the loop hence the time varies with each iteration. A conditional branch at the end of the loop flips a bit which drives the speaker. In the demo software being run in the video there is also a small test for the bottom 2 or 3 digits of incremented value being zero which allows it to branch off and drive the peripherals from time to time. This does no seem to affect the sound too much though it is not quite as pure as the original 'ghost' program. From time to time (but not in the video) it does a bubble sort of a block of data read from tape which produces a more recognisable 'computer' type sound. I once keyed in a short sequence of jumps activated by some of the switches on the front panel. The longer loops worked fine but there seemed to be a problem with the top note. There happened to be a young lady present and she said she could hear it fine, it seems it was simply beyond the frequency range of my old ears. I think it would flip the bit 1000000 / 12 times a second, so dividing by another 2 that would be 41.666 kHz. The machine has a nominal 1MHz clock derived from a 250kHz timing track recorded on the last drum accessed and the shortest instruction is 12 clock cycles. As another thread is discussing cats, I have to add that the first time I saw my 1301, there was a cat asleep on the main power stabiliser rack which was stuffed full of 6 inch by 4 inch by 4 inch heat sinks for the GET875 transistors used in parallel to regulate the various voltage DC supplies. It was the rack which was stuffed, not the cat by the way, the cat got up later and played with my host's hands as he tried to operate the main control panel. > From: Russ Bartlett > > I worked on one of these systems? 400 words IAS , magnet drum, and 4 tape decks .Programming was MPL.? We would use a card sorter (off-line) to save on sort time for a tape sort/merge process. You've got it, though I didn't know they ever shipped them with just 400 words. I knew it was theoretically possible to have just one 'barn door' but that must have been incredibly restrictive, especially on a tape machine where you need I/O buffers for Data Transfer Unit to do what we now call DMA into/from. Yes it could be programmed in MPL (Mnemonic or machine code or TAS (Thirteen hundred Assembly System) or MAC (Manchester Auto Code) and later there was COBOL and ICT's attempt to make COBOL more bearable, RapidWrite. Do you mind telling me where this 1300 or 1301 was? I don't suppose you know its serial number do you? I am trying to identify as many machines as I can, especially so I can find out how many were made. Mine is number 6 and I have parts of numbers 58, 75 and 166 but I suspect the number nearly reached 200 but the best remaining official ICT record is incomplete, some pages were lost and it was a marketing document, a list of customers in alphabetical order, and probably made before production ceased anyway as marketing would hardly be interested in an obsolete product. Your 400 words reflects on another thread where someone said "In the mid 60's only large companies had systems with greater than 16K memory and disc drives. Mag tape 800 and 1600 bpi if you were lucky was the norm." Taking the middle of the mid 60's, 1965, about a quarter of the machines in the UK were 1300 series with between 400 and 2000 words of Immediate Access Store (core), no discs just usually one 12000 word drum. Those lucky enough to have mag tape (which roughly doubled the cost of the computer as well as requiring air conditioning) were 300 bpi, usually 10 track (4 data + 6 CRC) half inch or for a lucky few, 16 track (8 + 8) one inch wide tape. There were of course scientific machines like ATLAS around but only three? were ever built, most actual data processing was done on much more mundane machines like the 1301. The IBM 360 was announced in 1965 but how many actually got their hands on one in the UK that year? If you only had 400 words (4800 digits) of storage, who would waste it hold 19s. As to using PICTURE XX , I only ever wrote one COBOL program (put me off for life) but I think PICTURE XX means two characters, which means 4 digits so exactly the same storage size as PICTURE 9999. Roger Holmes. From roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk Sat Feb 13 04:22:59 2010 From: roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk (Roger Holmes) Date: Sat, 13 Feb 2010 10:22:59 +0000 Subject: Manual Needed In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5CCE0E49-8846-423D-81B0-812BECC09FA3@microspot.co.uk> I have two shelves of pen plotter manuals at work, including many HP ones. Are you after the operators manual or the programmers manual i.e. the command set. I have a DraftMaster (MX plus IIRC) here. Maybe I can answer your questions from memory, if not I can look next week. Roger Holmes (Author of MacPlot, a pen plotter driver for Mac which was an application in 1984 but became a chooser level driver after Apple contracted us to change it so they could bundle it with MacProject and what became Claris Draw II). On 12 Feb 2010, at 18:00, cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > > Message: 2 > Date: Thu, 11 Feb 2010 22:24:59 -0500 > From: jthecman at netscape.net > Subject: Manual Needed > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > Message-ID: <8CC79AA1704C4E9-27F8-7F3C at webmail-m063.sysops.aol.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed > > Hello > Does anyone have a copy of the hp Draftmaster II manual for loan, sale, > can make a copy of it? > > Thanks, > John K From stimpy.u.idiot at gmail.com Sat Feb 13 10:46:59 2010 From: stimpy.u.idiot at gmail.com (Pete Edwards) Date: Sat, 13 Feb 2010 16:46:59 +0000 Subject: Storage Clear-Out Message-ID: <11c909eb1002130846m371c8c9es9ed76c1970354927@mail.gmail.com> Hi All, I'm having a clear out of the loft in the face of an imminent house move and I need to compress the collection a bit. On offer are: 1 x Panasonic SCSI LT-7010E Magneto-Optical Drive, no media, hence never tested but ID'd properly when SCSI hooked up. 1 x Syquest SCSI 5.25 Drive plus 2 x SQ400 44MB cartridges. In working order when last used. Both in Chester, UK. Free if collected. I will investigate shipping costs if anyone is really keen. MO drive is pretty heavy though. Cheers, Pete -- Pete Edwards "Prediction is very difficult, especially if it's about the future" - Niels Bohr From arcbe2001 at yahoo.com Sat Feb 13 14:02:23 2010 From: arcbe2001 at yahoo.com (Russ Bartlett) Date: Sat, 13 Feb 2010 12:02:23 -0800 (PST) Subject: Y2K retrospective / was Re: Algol vs ... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <865394.63433.qm@web110410.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Right - But still not as bad as the Wang bug back in 1984 that shut down VS machines! --- On Sat, 2/13/10, Andy Holt wrote: From: Andy Holt Subject: RE: Y2K retrospective / was Re: Algol vs ... To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" Date: Saturday, February 13, 2010, 12:59 AM >>>> Now the more sophisticated systems - of which the British ICT (ICL) was one - used an offset to hold dates.? The ICL 1900 range? used a technique of holding the number of days since the Jan 1st 1900 <<<< Except that they made a minor blunder ... Originally it had been defined that Day 0 was Jan 1st 1900 Then - after lots of such dates were "in the field" - someone discovered that 1900 was not a leap year. (probably the first well-informed person to write their own date-conversion routine who wondered why their code produced different results from the system standard) The only reasonable solution was to redefine Jan 1st 1900 as Day 1 so all dates from Mar 1st 1900 onwards remained unchanged. Andy From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Feb 13 15:04:07 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 13 Feb 2010 21:04:07 +0000 (GMT) Subject: HP-IB, Amigo/cs80 was Re: hp 9153 floppy & disk In-Reply-To: <002501caac59$47c59b80$0301a8c0@win2k> from "Steve Robertson" at Feb 12, 10 10:04:38 pm Message-ID: > I've been tinkering with this idea for quite some time and have a couple of > observations. > > The project I'm been pondering would use AVR micro along with an IDE disk to > emulate a CS80 drive. The IDE interface is pretty simple although like the > HPIB it does requires a lot of I/O lines. Between all the handshaking and IIRC, the interface to a CF card is essentially IDE, so you could use non-rotating memory if you wanted to. > control signals with the IDE and HPIB devices, it would require a TON of > I/O. Either that or you have to do some fancy muxing of the I/O. Or you could use a microprocssor rather than a microcontroller with external ROM and RAM chips. Then hange the iDE drive off the bus as was origianlly intended, and connect up an HPIB controller chip or a parallel port chip to bang out the HPIB protocol. It puts the chip count right up, but it means the only programmed drvice is the firmware EPROM (which is easy to provgram)m and it's a lot easier to debug the firmware (you can use a logic analyser on the processor bus). > > So, to make the HPIB control simpler, I'd prefer to use a HPIB controller > chip like the NEC7210. That chip just hangs on an 8-bit bus and uses > internal registers to free up some of the I/O lines on the micro. The > biggest problem is finding a reliable supply of HPIB controller chips. Yes, that's the problem. Most of the traditional HPIB interface chips have long beend discontinued. And ehile you might be able to fet them for repair purposed, I'd rahter not such a device in a new design. > My solution to this would be to break this project in to two separate > smaller projects. Firstly, use a separate microprocessor to emulate the 7210 > controller chip. This would provide several advantages: Why do you need 2 mircoprocessors? The HPIB low-level protocol is simple enough that it could easily be handled by whatever chip is running the main software > 3.) The 75160/1 pairs are still available. I think DIGIKEY has them in stock > at a reasonable price. Note that these are not "just" I/O buffers. There are > a few additional gates in the devices that add some more logic that one > might expect. > > So, the AVR could eliminate the need for the 75160/1 bus driver chips. If > you fry a $4 AVR... Who cares? It doesn't cost much more than the dedicated > drivers. The problem is that the AVR needs to be programmed, It's a lot easier to replace a DIL packaged IC (particularly if you put it in a socket) than have to program a new AVR and plug it in. I am also not sure (I would have to check) if the AVR (or any other mcirocontoller) poer pins meet the specs for driving/sensing an HPIB line. > 4.) You might be able to build a simple "adapter" board and use the AVR in > place of hard-to-find 7210's in existing equipment. I doubt it. I don't think an AVR on its own would be able to respond to the states of the host-interface address/data/control lines quickly enough. You'd need some hardware to provide the actually 'registers'. OK, it could be a CPLD or something, but this makes things ever more complicated. If you're goign to use CPLDs of FPGAs, you might as well make the entire HPIB interface in one and not use the AVR at all. -tony From emu at e-bbes.com Sat Feb 13 15:59:39 2010 From: emu at e-bbes.com (e.stiebler) Date: Sat, 13 Feb 2010 14:59:39 -0700 Subject: HP-IB, Amigo/cs80 was Re: hp 9153 floppy & disk In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B7720CB.1090707@e-bbes.com> Tony Duell wrote: > IIRC, the interface to a CF card is essentially IDE, so you could use > non-rotating memory if you wanted to. Sorry, I would use sd-flash. much easier to deal with, less I/O. > Yes, that's the problem. Most of the traditional HPIB interface chips > have long beend discontinued. And ehile you might be able to fet them for > repair purposed, I'd rahter not such a device in a new design. Here I would put an cpld/fpga on it. Only newer chips available are PCI. Bit-Banging the GP-IB is doable, but why ? > [75160/xxx] Definitely I would use them. No reason to make a real project out of this, and suffer, because somebody put 200 devices on it. If you do it, do it right (tm) > (DIL CPUs, whatever) Here I'm disagreeing, Probably even BGA, but who cares ? There more interesting chips are BGA, and I'm not thinking about replacing the CPU anyway. > I am also not sure (I would have to check) if the AVR (or any other > mcirocontoller) poer pins meet the specs for driving/sensing an HPIB > line. Use the drivers which are meant to be used on the specific bus. I used the 75160 before, and they worked. > I doubt it. I don't think an AVR on its own would be able to respond to > the states of the host-interface address/data/control lines quickly > enough. You'd need some hardware to provide the actually 'registers'. OK, > it could be a CPLD or something, but this makes things ever more > complicated. If you're goign to use CPLDs of FPGAs, you might as well > make the entire HPIB interface in one and not use the AVR at all. Thank you ;-) That would be my approach, to put everything in one chip, but the drivers ;-) Cheers From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Feb 13 17:27:59 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 13 Feb 2010 15:27:59 -0800 (PST) Subject: Hacking a typewriter into a teletype In-Reply-To: References: <905687.22685.qm@web113508.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20100213152355.Q2735@shell.lmi.net> > Very interesting. Could it be possible to do it with other models ? Olympia ES101, etc. Daisy wheel typewriters with centronics port. Rochester Dynatyper KGS-80 were boxes of solenoids that sat on top of the keyboard, and pressed the keys. They would work for almost anything that had a relatively "normal" keyboard, even a Merganthaler from Hell! One had a Centronics compatible interface (34 pin card-edge connector to fit with TRS80 Model I LPT port), crimping an IDC 36 pin Blue Ribbon connector on its cable was sufficient to interface it to a 5150 parallel port. It worked well with PC-Write. The other had a double-ended board that fit Apple][ slots and/or TRS80 expansion port. It worked OK with Electric Pencil and Scripsit. Escon? in Walnut Creek made a kit for butchering Selectrics. It fit on the bottom and pulled keys down as needed. At the West Coast Computer Faire (one of the earlier ones, maybe #4 - #6), somebody demo'ed a unit that worked on almost any typewriter (they demo'ed with a MANUAL PORTABLE). It connected up all over the typewriter with fishing wire. The crowd seemed to like it, and applauded vigorously every time that it successfully completed a Carriage Return. At the Third? West Coast Computer Faire (LA?), somebody presented a "paper"proposing a $50 typewriter interface. But, it was all speculation on what the toy companies COULD DO, if they wanted to. It was NOT on a par with the paper by George Morrow and Howard Fullmer about standardization of S100. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cclist at sydex.com Sat Feb 13 17:46:27 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 13 Feb 2010 15:46:27 -0800 Subject: Hacking a typewriter into a teletype In-Reply-To: <20100213152355.Q2735@shell.lmi.net> References: , , <20100213152355.Q2735@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4B76C953.7033.16B88B2@cclist.sydex.com> On 13 Feb 2010 at 15:27, Fred Cisin wrote: > Escon? in Walnut Creek made a kit for butchering Selectrics. It fit > on the bottom and pulled keys down as needed. I remember when the thing made its appearance that some IBM repair guys said that using it would likely destroy the typewriter. Apparently, the I/O Selectrics were built a bit huskier than the usual office models. I don't know how true that was. I never could stand daisywheel typewriters. The lack of "push a key and get a "kerchunk" immediacy really throws my typing rhythm off. --Chuck From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Sat Feb 13 20:03:10 2010 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sat, 13 Feb 2010 21:03:10 -0500 Subject: Manual for Codar QTimer II Model 102 Message-ID: <4B7759DE.1080707@compsys.to> I had excellent results asking for the Matrox QRGB-Alpha board, so I am trying again. I notice that there is a section in bitsavers with one manual for Codar boards, but not the item I am looking for. There is also a Qtimer II Model 120 which is not the specific manual I am looking for, but might be useful. Does anyone know where I might be able to locate a Qtimer II Model 102 manual? Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine From brain at jbrain.com Sat Feb 13 23:00:22 2010 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Sat, 13 Feb 2010 23:00:22 -0600 Subject: Tandy Pocket Computer 4 for Auction Message-ID: <4B778366.4060304@jbrain.com> Cameron or others, not sure if you're interested, but it's time to get rid of the Tandy PC-4 and all the accessories: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=290402539975&ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT I'll be putting a Northstar Horizon Z80 card and an Horizon HRAM5 card up tomorrow, if anyone is interested. Jim -- Jim Brain, Brain Innovations (X) brain at jbrain.com Dabbling in WWW, Embedded Systems, Old CBM computers, and Good Times! Home: http://www.jbrain.com From IanK at vulcan.com Sun Feb 14 00:00:29 2010 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Sat, 13 Feb 2010 22:00:29 -0800 Subject: VMS source distributions Message-ID: I've been talking with HP about obtaining VMS sources for the 6.2 release, which we're running on our VAX-11/780-5. Interestingly, they tell me that source for the original release is available, but not the 'updates' which I believe is the patches issued for this particular release. Does anyone on the list have any experience with these subsequent update releases? If so, please respond to me privately at iank at vulcan.com. I'd like to understand what is or isn't included and how they interacted with the original release. Thanks -- Ian From spectre at floodgap.com Sun Feb 14 00:11:56 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sat, 13 Feb 2010 22:11:56 -0800 (PST) Subject: Tandy Pocket Computer 4 for Auction In-Reply-To: <4B778366.4060304@jbrain.com> from Jim Brain at "Feb 13, 10 11:00:22 pm" Message-ID: <201002140611.o1E6BuwQ021042@floodgap.com> > Cameron or others, not sure if you're interested, but it's time to get > rid of the Tandy PC-4 and all the accessories: > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=290402539975&ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT I'm good on PC-4 junk, but I'll officially pass the hand of blessing and say that the collection looks complete -- I can't see anything obviously missing. It appears to be an original -3650, not a -3650B. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Rational behavior is a choice, not a predestination. -- Kent Paul Dolan ---- From spectre at floodgap.com Sun Feb 14 00:13:13 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sat, 13 Feb 2010 22:13:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: Tandy Pocket Computer 4 for Auction In-Reply-To: <201002140611.o1E6BuwQ021042@floodgap.com> from Cameron Kaiser at "Feb 13, 10 10:11:56 pm" Message-ID: <201002140613.o1E6DD2I028512@floodgap.com> > > Cameron or others, not sure if you're interested, but it's time to get > > rid of the Tandy PC-4 and all the accessories: > > > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=290402539975&ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT > > I'm good on PC-4 junk, but I'll officially pass the hand of blessing and > say that the collection looks complete -- I can't see anything obviously > missing. It appears to be an original -3650, not a -3650B. ... except the RAM expansion, of course, but Jim mentions this in the auction. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Line printer paper is strongest at its perforations. ----------------------- From gkleba at wi.rr.com Sat Feb 13 11:16:23 2010 From: gkleba at wi.rr.com (gkleba) Date: Sat, 13 Feb 2010 11:16:23 -0600 Subject: Radio Shack Science Fair manuals Message-ID: Is it possible that you still may have the 200 in 0ne manual for the radio shack 28-249 electronics kit? I've been searching for a while for this & would like to turn the kit over to one of the grandchildren but I have no manual. I realize your post is extremely old but it's worth a shot. regards Glenn From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sun Feb 14 10:17:28 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sun, 14 Feb 2010 08:17:28 -0800 Subject: Getting to dislike tantalum caps In-Reply-To: <4B7538D3.20133.94F368@cclist.sydex.com> References: <17641.39335.qm@web110403.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>, , , , <4B759AF5.3080709@garlic.com>, <4B7538D3.20133.94F368@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: Hi I begining to dislike these things. I recently got an old 2090 Nicolet DSO ( Digital scope ). When I got it, it had a blown tantilum on the 5V for the I/O section. I fixed this and the blown regulator along with it. I originally got it so that I could display things from my analog computer ( That I'm having fun with ). I powered it up and was just getting the parameters right for a nice Rose Engine display when the display went to a defocused dot. I spent the next few hours trying to figure the best way to disassemble this puzzle box. I know scope have to be compact but it would be nice if there was some thng that said, do this first then this and then this. In any case, I figured that it must be something in the main frame, because the display was completely dead. I found the failing area and measure some supply lines. Sure enough, a -12V was missing from the D/A's. It was run by a local regulator from a +18V line and that was dead too. Some more tracing and disassembling, I followed the short to the input module. I wish I'm know this from the start. The input module is easily removed. I should have followed the first rules of trouble shooting, isolate the parts first and have the minimum connected. Now, I'd disassembled the entire mainframe that I'd have to put back together later. The input module is a pain to take apart. A number of places, they soldered grounding straps. After unsoldering, I traced it down to a cap on the common mother board. I reassembled everything and just had it running for about 10 or 15 minutes and the screen went to a fuzzy dot again. This time, I was smarter. I pulled the input module first. This restored a nice focused dot in the left lower corner. I quickly located the next shorted cap and put the unit back together. It has been running now for several hours. I just hope it doesn't blow another cap but I'm sure it will. As you can see, my love for old tantalum caps is lost it luster. I wish there was some way to get them to fail at one time, but then I'd had to do tricks to find a multiply shorted line ( I can do that but it is a lot of pain ). Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail: Trusted email with powerful SPAM protection. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/201469227/direct/01/ From hachti at hachti.de Sun Feb 14 12:04:34 2010 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Sun, 14 Feb 2010 19:04:34 +0100 Subject: Docs found: Some docs scanned Message-ID: <4B783B32.2050203@hachti.de> Hi folks, I arranged to get one of those office machines that do everything. And scanned a box of documents. This is how it looks when I use it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=70m0ZdcFOuE If anybody has some money to help me funding my copy machine - please let me know..... It cost me most of what I could spend at the moment. I uploaded the documents to: http://pdp8.hachti.de/newscan/box1 Feel free to take what's needed and archive it. My files will not stay there for forever! Here's a list of the box1 directory: ************************************ > hachti at sumpf64:~/scanner/ready/box1$ ls * > ampex: > 5104036-10 TM-2 Technical Manual for Siemens+Halske April 1965 .pdf > > cdc: > 41247200 Rev. B 9465 Disk Storage Drive Maintenance Manual.pdf 41248800 Rev. D 9465 Disk Storage Drive Schematics.pdf > > dartmouth_dtss: > 20100212100751305.pdf 20100212101335486.pdf > > emulex: > CD1151007 Rev. B CS11_F1 Technical Manual.pdf > > facit: > PE1000 Technical Description, German.pdf UP631001 FACIT PE 1000 Paper Tape Reader Spare Parts.pdf > UP630201 FACIT PE 1000 Paper Tape Reader Manual.pdf > > honeywell: > BJ67A Rev. 1 Series 600_6000 FORTRAN Addendum A.pdf > BJ67 Rev. 1 Series 600_6000 FORTRAN Manual.pdf > BP82 Rev. 0 Series 600_6000 Biomedical (BMD) Statistical Programs Reference Manual.pdf > BS06 Rev. 1 Series 600_6000 Jovial Language Manual.pdf > BS11A Rev. 0 Series 600_6000 Algol Addendum A.pdf > BS11 Rev. 0 Series 600_6000 Algol Manual.pdf > D43A Rev. 0 Series 600_6000 Time-Sharing Applicatons Library Guide I - Mathematics, Addendum A.pdf > D43 Rev. 0 Series 600_6000 Time-Sharing Applicatons Library Guide I - Mathematics.pdf > DA44A Rev. 0 Series 600_6000 Time-Sharing Applications Library Guide II - Statistics, Addendum A.pdf > DA44 Rev. 0 Series 600_6000 Time-Sharing Applications Library Guide II - Statistics.pdf > DA45A Rev. 2 Series 600_6000 Time-Sharing Applications Library Guide III - Industry, Addendum A.pdf > DA45B Rev. 2 Series 600_6000 Time-Sharing Applications Library Guide III - Industry, Addendum B.pdf > DA45 Rev. 2 Series 600_6000 Time-Sharing Applications Library Guide III - Industry.pdf > DA64 Rev. 1 Series 600_6000 Time-Sharing Applications Library Guide IV - Business+Finance.pdf > > plessey: > PM-TC11 Drawing Package.pdf > > xerox: > 190572C Rank Xerox extended Algol-60 Language and Operations Reference Manual.pdf > 191692A Xerox Universal Time-Sharing System (UTS) Users Guide.pdf > 900907E Xerox Control-Program-Five (CP-V) Time-Sharing Reference Manual.pdf > 901677A-1(9-71) Xerox FORTRAN Debug Package (FDP) Revision Package.pdf > 901677A Xerox FORTRAN Debug Package (FDP) Reference Manual.pdf > 901733C Sigma 9 Computer Reference Manual.pdf > 901765A Xerox Operating System (XOS) Batch Processing Reference Manual.pdf > hachti at sumpf64:~/scanner/ready/box1$ du -h > 41M ./facit > 396M ./xerox > 511M ./honeywell > 123M ./plessey > 124M ./ampex > 32M ./emulex > 146M ./cdc > 110M ./dartmouth_dtss > 1,5G . ****************************** Best wishes, Philipp -- http://www.hachti.de From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Feb 14 12:37:43 2010 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 14 Feb 2010 10:37:43 -0800 Subject: Docs found: Some docs scanned In-Reply-To: <4B783B32.2050203@hachti.de> References: <4B783B32.2050203@hachti.de> Message-ID: <4B7842F7.5080001@bitsavers.org> On 2/14/10 10:04 AM, Philipp Hachtmann wrote: > ampex: 5104036-10 TM-2 >> Technical Manual for Siemens+Halske April 1965 .pdf That will make the B-205 fans happy. The TM-2 manual has been difficult to find. From rdawson16 at hotmail.com Sun Feb 14 12:45:48 2010 From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson) Date: Sun, 14 Feb 2010 12:45:48 -0600 Subject: Getting to dislike tantalum caps In-Reply-To: References: <17641.39335.qm@web110403.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>, ,,, , , <4B759AF5.3080709@garlic.com>, , <4B7538D3.20133.94F368@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: Dwight, There was some criminal stuff going on with electrolytes in this era, from the asian manufacturers. Almost everybody associated with the type of electronics that was not 'throw away' remembers this. I had a note from a pro video repair shop, saying that to get a $15,000 pro video camera back in operation would require the replacement of all the tant caps, as they were all destined to fail, and yet another trip to the shop. Anybody else recall this? There was one chemical manufacturer pinpointed, that was supplying XR7 or whatever electrolyte to all the manufacturers. They shortcut their process and cut costs, and several years of electronic products were affected. Please pots your analog computer work! Have you read the Electronic Research Associates books out there (IIRC) Randy > From: dkelvey at hotmail.com > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Getting to dislike tantalum caps > Date: Sun, 14 Feb 2010 08:17:28 -0800 > > > Hi > > I begining to dislike these things. > > I recently got an old 2090 Nicolet DSO ( Digital scope ). > > When I got it, it had a blown tantilum on the 5V > > for the I/O section. I fixed this and the blown regulator > > along with it. > > I originally got it so that I could display things from > > my analog computer ( That I'm having fun with ). > > I powered it up and was just getting the parameters > > right for a nice Rose Engine display when the display > > went to a defocused dot. > > I spent the next few hours trying to figure the best > > way to disassemble this puzzle box. I know scope have > > to be compact but it would be nice if there was some > > thng that said, do this first then this and then this. > > In any case, I figured that it must be something in > > the main frame, because the display was completely > > dead. > > I found the failing area and measure some supply lines. > > Sure enough, a -12V was missing from the D/A's. > > It was run by a local regulator from a +18V line and > > that was dead too. > > Some more tracing and disassembling, I followed the > > short to the input module. I wish I'm know this from > > the start. The input module is easily removed. I should > > have followed the first rules of trouble shooting, isolate > > the parts first and have the minimum connected. > > Now, I'd disassembled the entire mainframe that I'd > > have to put back together later. > > The input module is a pain to take apart. A number > > of places, they soldered grounding straps. After unsoldering, > > I traced it down to a cap on the common mother board. > > I reassembled everything and just had it running for > > about 10 or 15 minutes and the screen went to a fuzzy > > dot again. > > This time, I was smarter. I pulled the input module first. > > This restored a nice focused dot in the left lower corner. > > I quickly located the next shorted cap and put the unit > > back together. > > It has been running now for several hours. I just hope it > > doesn't blow another cap but I'm sure it will. > > As you can see, my love for old tantalum caps is lost > > it luster. I wish there was some way to get them to > > fail at one time, but then I'd had to do tricks to find a > > multiply shorted line ( I can do that but it is a lot of > > pain ). > > Dwight > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Hotmail: Trusted email with powerful SPAM protection. > http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/201469227/direct/01/ _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail: Free, trusted and rich email service. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/201469228/direct/01/ From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Feb 14 12:43:34 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 14 Feb 2010 18:43:34 +0000 (GMT) Subject: HP-IB, Amigo/cs80 was Re: hp 9153 floppy & disk In-Reply-To: <4B7720CB.1090707@e-bbes.com> from "e.stiebler" at Feb 13, 10 02:59:39 pm Message-ID: > > Tony Duell wrote: > > IIRC, the interface to a CF card is essentially IDE, so you could use > > non-rotating memory if you wanted to. > > Sorry, I would use sd-flash. much easier to deal with, less I/O. So would I (is that thw oen with an SPI-like interface?). But another list member mentioned making a device using IDE hard disks, and I was commenting that if such a device was created, it could also use CF cards with little, if any, modification. > > > Yes, that's the problem. Most of the traditional HPIB interface chips > > have long beend discontinued. And ehile you might be able to fet them for > > repair purposed, I'd rahter not such a device in a new design. > > Here I would put an cpld/fpga on it. Only newer chips available are PCI. > Bit-Banging the GP-IB is doable, but why ? Why would you want to use a CPLD/FPGA here? It's another chip, it's another chip that has to be programmed (and for which you need the development tools [1] and a machine to run them on), and it doesn't give you anyting. Using just about any microcontroller, you can bit-bang the HPIB handshake plenty fast enough. [1] And unlike most microcontroollers, you have to use the proprietary tools, you can't write your own. I suspect that with a sensible choice of microcntroller, it could be built in 4 or 5 chips (microcontroller, a couple of HPIB buffers, the minimal logic needed to support a banged HPIB handshake and maybe buffers to the flash memroy device). Now if I was designing this for myself, I can assure you I'd use a microprocessor, separate ROM and RAM, some kind of HPIB controller chip (HP used the Intel 8291 in most of their drive units), and whatever chips were needed to link up the flash memory device. And of course a pile of TTL for clocks, reset, address decoding, etc. The reason is that it would be easier for me to debug the firmware in a setup like that (I could use an EPROM emulaotr, I could also use a logic analyser to trace the code as it was running). Problem is, nobody would want to build that, so I feel a single-chip miocrocontroller + buffers is probably the most senible solution. > > > [75160/xxx] > > Definitely I would use them. No reason to make a real project out of > this, and suffer, because somebody put 200 devices on it. > If you do it, do it right (tm) Indeed... > > > (DIL CPUs, whatever) > Here I'm disagreeing, Probably even BGA, but who cares ? > There more interesting chips are BGA, and I'm not thinking about > replacing the CPU anyway. The problem with BGAs is that they're alomost impossible to prototype with, and not many people have the setup to solder them onto a PCB anyway (I don't). So who is going to be able to actually build the thing? Oh yes, I'd want to solder the PCBs myself. That way I know they're soldeed with 'real' solder... [...] > That would be my approach, to put everything in one chip, but the > drivers ;-) My (serious) approach too. One chip + buffers (to HPIB) + the flash memory device. And since you really need that chip to be a processor (you try doing the CS/80 protocol in random logic ;-)),, it makes more sense to use a microcontroller than an FPGA here (yes, I know you _can_ make a processor in an FPGA, I've done it, but it's not the sensible thing to use hree). -tony From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Feb 14 13:28:13 2010 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 14 Feb 2010 11:28:13 -0800 Subject: Getting to dislike tantalum caps In-Reply-To: References: <17641.39335.qm@web110403.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>, , , , , , <4B759AF5.3080709@garlic.com>, , <4B7538D3.20133.94F368@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4B784ECD.2020401@bitsavers.org> On 2/14/10 10:45 AM, Randy Dawson wrote: > > Dwight, > > There was some criminal stuff going on with electrolytes in this era This has absolutely NOTHING to due with the problems he is seeing, nor is it even from the right DECADE. Solid Tantalum capacitors have the failure mode he is observing, they short. Many electronics companies banned their engineers from designing them in for this exact reason. When they short, they BURN UP, often taking large chunks of the circuit board with them. From teoz at neo.rr.com Sun Feb 14 13:59:00 2010 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sun, 14 Feb 2010 14:59:00 -0500 Subject: Getting to dislike tantalum caps References: <17641.39335.qm@web110403.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>, , , , , , <4B759AF5.3080709@garlic.com>, , <4B7538D3.20133.94F368@cclist.sydex.com>, <4B784ECD.2020401@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <773F78C240DD456F97953FEC9340F000@dell8300> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Al Kossow" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Sunday, February 14, 2010 2:28 PM Subject: Re: Getting to dislike tantalum caps > On 2/14/10 10:45 AM, Randy Dawson wrote: >> >> Dwight, >> >> There was some criminal stuff going on with electrolytes in this era > > This has absolutely NOTHING to due with the problems he is seeing, nor is > it even from the right DECADE. > > Solid Tantalum capacitors have the failure mode he is observing, they > short. > > Many electronics companies banned their engineers from designing them in > for > this exact reason. When they short, they BURN UP, often taking large > chunks of the > circuit board with them. > > The aluminum electrolytic were the ones with problems. Tantalums are nice as long as you don't have a voltage spike (they hate going above their rated voltage and short). At least when the aluminum electrolytic leak/go bad they just quit working (open), hopefully not eating the circuit board. From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Sun Feb 14 14:01:09 2010 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sun, 14 Feb 2010 21:01:09 +0100 Subject: Getting to dislike tantalum caps In-Reply-To: References: <17641.39335.qm@web110403.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4B759AF5.3080709@garlic.com> <4B7538D3.20133.94F368@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20100214210109.55d3f895.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Sun, 14 Feb 2010 12:45:48 -0600 Randy Dawson wrote: > There was some criminal stuff going on with electrolytes in this era, AFAIK this is an urban legend. And that legend was about aluminium electrolyte capacitors, not tantalum. Most common faild capacitors where the low ESR types found in the CPU core voltage regulator on PeeCee mainboards. > There was one chemical manufacturer pinpointed, > that was supplying XR7 or whatever electrolyte to all the manufacturers. X7R is a ceramic dielectric. It has nothing to do with electrolyte capacitors. Even cheap X7R capacitors are far more reliable then electrolyte capacitors. -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From melamy at earthlink.net Sun Feb 14 14:26:56 2010 From: melamy at earthlink.net (melamy at earthlink.net) Date: Sun, 14 Feb 2010 12:26:56 -0800 (GMT-08:00) Subject: Getting to dislike tantalum caps Message-ID: <32919605.1266179216336.JavaMail.root@mswamui-andean.atl.sa.earthlink.net> the issue was definitely normal electrolytic capacitors. The Dell GX-270 desktop computer was one of the victims. We had over 100 of these and Dell replaced nearly every motherboard due to this specific manufacturer's defect. The electrolytic caps used around the cpu would bulge on the top and in some cases burp out electrolyte out of the top. I didn't research the actual cap manufacturer. best regards, Steve Thatcher -----Original Message----- >From: Randy Dawson >Sent: Feb 14, 2010 10:45 AM >To: classic computers >Subject: RE: Getting to dislike tantalum caps > > >Dwight, > >There was some criminal stuff going on with electrolytes in this era, from the asian manufacturers. Almost everybody associated with the type of electronics that was not 'throw away' remembers this. I had a note from a pro video repair shop, saying that to get a $15,000 pro video camera back in operation would require the replacement of all the tant caps, as they were all destined to fail, and yet another trip to the shop. > >Anybody else recall this? There was one chemical manufacturer pinpointed, that was supplying XR7 or whatever electrolyte to all the manufacturers. They shortcut their process and cut costs, and several years of electronic products were affected. > >Please pots your analog computer work! Have you read the Electronic Research Associates books out there (IIRC) > >Randy From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Feb 14 14:27:34 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 14 Feb 2010 15:27:34 -0500 Subject: Getting to dislike tantalum caps In-Reply-To: <20100214210109.55d3f895.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <17641.39335.qm@web110403.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4B759AF5.3080709@garlic.com> <4B7538D3.20133.94F368@cclist.sydex.com> <20100214210109.55d3f895.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <9B2E6ED2-984E-45A0-B636-452867A1BBA5@neurotica.com> On Feb 14, 2010, at 3:01 PM, Jochen Kunz wrote: >> There was some criminal stuff going on with electrolytes in this era, > > AFAIK this is an urban legend. And that legend was about aluminium > electrolyte capacitors, not tantalum. It's not an urban legend, unfortunately: http://www.neurotica.com/misc/chinese_capacitor.jpg I didn't take that picture, but I've seen it with my own eyes. Other crap that happened was the fun of 2003 when capacitor manufacturers starting making electrolytic capacitors using stolen electrolyte formula that was incomplete. >> There was one chemical manufacturer pinpointed, >> that was supplying XR7 or whatever electrolyte to all the >> manufacturers. > > X7R is a ceramic dielectric. It has nothing to do with electrolyte > capacitors. Even cheap X7R capacitors are far more reliable then > electrolyte capacitors. X7R is an EIA-198 specification that defines electrical and thermal behaviors of ceramic capacitors, not a type of dielectric material. The first of the three-character code is a code letter indicating lower limit of the operating temperature range, the middle character is a code number indicating the upper limit of the operating temperature range, and the third is a code letter indicating the maximum change in capacitance allowed over that operating temperature range. -Dave > -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Feb 14 14:37:02 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 14 Feb 2010 15:37:02 -0500 Subject: Getting to dislike tantalum caps In-Reply-To: References: <17641.39335.qm@web110403.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>, , , , , , <4B759AF5.3080709@garlic.com>, , <4B7538D3.20133.94F368@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4A8152CE-32B6-47B8-BE0D-347F9EF275AD@neurotica.com> On Feb 14, 2010, at 1:45 PM, Randy Dawson wrote: > There was some criminal stuff going on with electrolytes in this > era, from the asian manufacturers. Almost everybody associated > with the type of electronics that was not 'throw away' remembers > this. I had a note from a pro video repair shop, saying that to > get a $15,000 pro video camera back in operation would require the > replacement of all the tant caps, as they were all destined to > fail, and yet another trip to the shop. > > Anybody else recall this? There was one chemical manufacturer > pinpointed, that was supplying XR7 or whatever electrolyte to all > the manufacturers. They shortcut their process and cut costs, and > several years of electronic products were affected. Not tantalum, and not X7R. X7R is an EIA specification that pertains to ceramic capacitor temperature stability. The electrolyte problem was a stolen formula that was incomplete, but was used by several manufacturers. This happened in 2003; the market is still flooded with bad (non-tantalum!) electrolytic capacitors. -Dave > -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From emu at e-bbes.com Sun Feb 14 15:07:20 2010 From: emu at e-bbes.com (e.stiebler) Date: Sun, 14 Feb 2010 14:07:20 -0700 Subject: HP-IB, Amigo/cs80 was Re: hp 9153 floppy & disk In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B786608.4040802@e-bbes.com> Tony Duell wrote: > My (serious) approach too. One chip + buffers (to HPIB) + the flash > memory device. And since you really need that chip to be a processor (you > try doing the CS/80 protocol in random logic ;-)),, it makes more sense > to use a microcontroller than an FPGA here (yes, I know you _can_ make a > processor in an FPGA, I've done it, but it's not the sensible thing to > use hree). My problem or benefit is, that I have the FPGA boards already. All I need is to wire up the GP-IB drivers & a connector for the Logic Analyzer. Cheers From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Feb 14 15:10:55 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 14 Feb 2010 16:10:55 -0500 Subject: HP-IB, Amigo/cs80 was Re: hp 9153 floppy & disk In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3FA74B90-4E51-40DF-A0AA-4A1EF2F30C6B@neurotica.com> On Feb 14, 2010, at 1:43 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >>> IIRC, the interface to a CF card is essentially IDE, so you could >>> use >>> non-rotating memory if you wanted to. >> >> Sorry, I would use sd-flash. much easier to deal with, less I/O. > > So would I (is that thw oen with an SPI-like interface?). SD and MMC can use what is more-or-less standard SPI, or a 4-bit- wide interface that's more difficult to use but much faster. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From emu at e-bbes.com Sun Feb 14 15:22:00 2010 From: emu at e-bbes.com (e.stiebler) Date: Sun, 14 Feb 2010 14:22:00 -0700 Subject: HP-IB, Amigo/cs80 was Re: hp 9153 floppy & disk In-Reply-To: <3FA74B90-4E51-40DF-A0AA-4A1EF2F30C6B@neurotica.com> References: <3FA74B90-4E51-40DF-A0AA-4A1EF2F30C6B@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4B786978.4090402@e-bbes.com> Dave McGuire wrote: > SD and MMC can use what is more-or-less standard SPI, or a 4-bit-wide > interface that's more difficult to use but much faster. But as we are replacing disks which were on HP-IB, the normal few MBytes/sec you get out of SPI whould be sufficient. Or, what was the fastest HP-IB harddrive ? From oltmansg at bellsouth.net Sun Feb 14 15:51:03 2010 From: oltmansg at bellsouth.net (Geoff Oltmans) Date: Sun, 14 Feb 2010 15:51:03 -0600 Subject: Getting to dislike tantalum caps In-Reply-To: References: <17641.39335.qm@web110403.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>, , , , <4B759AF5.3080709@garlic.com>, <4B7538D3.20133.94F368@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: I hate capacitors period. If only we could get rid of the buggers. :) On Feb 14, 2010, at 10:17 AM, dwight elvey wrote: > > Hi > > I begining to dislike these things. > > I recently got an old 2090 Nicolet DSO ( Digital scope ). > > When I got it, it had a blown tantilum on the 5V > > for the I/O section. I fixed this and the blown regulator > > along with it. > > I originally got it so that I could display things from > > my analog computer ( That I'm having fun with ). > > I powered it up and was just getting the parameters > > right for a nice Rose Engine display when the display > > went to a defocused dot. > > I spent the next few hours trying to figure the best > > way to disassemble this puzzle box. I know scope have > > to be compact but it would be nice if there was some > > thng that said, do this first then this and then this. > > In any case, I figured that it must be something in > > the main frame, because the display was completely > > dead. > > I found the failing area and measure some supply lines. > > Sure enough, a -12V was missing from the D/A's. > > It was run by a local regulator from a +18V line and > > that was dead too. > > Some more tracing and disassembling, I followed the > > short to the input module. I wish I'm know this from > > the start. The input module is easily removed. I should > > have followed the first rules of trouble shooting, isolate > > the parts first and have the minimum connected. > > Now, I'd disassembled the entire mainframe that I'd > > have to put back together later. > > The input module is a pain to take apart. A number > > of places, they soldered grounding straps. After unsoldering, > > I traced it down to a cap on the common mother board. > > I reassembled everything and just had it running for > > about 10 or 15 minutes and the screen went to a fuzzy > > dot again. > > This time, I was smarter. I pulled the input module first. > > This restored a nice focused dot in the left lower corner. > > I quickly located the next shorted cap and put the unit > > back together. > > It has been running now for several hours. I just hope it > > doesn't blow another cap but I'm sure it will. > > As you can see, my love for old tantalum caps is lost > > it luster. I wish there was some way to get them to > > fail at one time, but then I'd had to do tricks to find a > > multiply shorted line ( I can do that but it is a lot of > > pain ). > > Dwight > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Hotmail: Trusted email with powerful SPAM protection. > http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/201469227/direct/01/ From brain at jbrain.com Sun Feb 14 15:52:37 2010 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Sun, 14 Feb 2010 15:52:37 -0600 Subject: HP-IB, Amigo/cs80 was Re: hp 9153 floppy & disk In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B7870A5.2090001@jbrain.com> On 2/14/2010 12:43 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> > So would I (is that thw oen with an SPI-like interface?). But another > list member mentioned making a device using IDE hard disks, and I was > commenting that if such a device was created, it could also use CF cards > with little, if any, modification. > I'm not sure if I'm the list member in question, but uIEC/IDE uses the AVR ATMEGA1281 and provides an IDE/CF interface. However, the same firmware also supports SD cards (and is available as uIEC/SD). There has also been significant interest in the CBM world for an uIEEE solution, so I have sketched out a solution that utilizes the AVR. FOr the IEEE bus I am considering both the 75160/75161 versus a pair of input buffers and a pair of TPIC6B273 high current output drivers. Currently, the 7516X units are a price premium, but the price difference is minimal. The uIEC firmware currently supports FAT16/FAT32 and SD/SDHC/IDE protocols already, I simply need to write the IEEE support. I'm happy to have help :-) jim From dm561 at torfree.net Sun Feb 14 15:50:05 2010 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Sun, 14 Feb 2010 16:50:05 -0500 Subject: Y2K retrospective / was Re: Algol vs ... Message-ID: <01CAAD96.3BB07480@MSE_D03> Unless I just missed it I haven't noticed any reference in this thread to the upcoming Y2K38: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Year_2038_problem From tpeters at mixcom.com Sun Feb 14 16:35:06 2010 From: tpeters at mixcom.com (Tom Peters) Date: Sun, 14 Feb 2010 16:35:06 -0600 Subject: Getting to dislike tantalum caps In-Reply-To: References: <4B7538D3.20133.94F368@cclist.sydex.com> <17641.39335.qm@web110403.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4B759AF5.3080709@garlic.com> <4B7538D3.20133.94F368@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20100214162909.0b259be0@localhost> At 08:17 AM 2/14/2010 -0800, you wrote: >Hi > > I begining to dislike these things. > >I recently got an old 2090 Nicolet DSO ( Digital scope ). > >When I got it, it had a blown tantilum on the 5V > >for the I/O section. I fixed this and the blown regulator > >along with it. > >Dwight I bought a Tek 7904 scope on e-pay, a frame-and-4-plugins design. At least 4 of the tants on the power supply were shorted, so I ordered new ones to replace all the tantalums in the power supply. I think I spent $25 at Digikey. Works great now. I thought the caps the leaked on PC motherboards were aluminum electrolytics. ISTR that some guy defected from the Chinese factory where they were made and stole the formula for the electrolyte so he could start up somewhere else, but there were additional chemicals added after the solution was first made up and his formula didn't tell him anything about the later steps, so all of his caps failed after various amounts of time in-circuit. ----- 85. [Science Fiction] "Even the AI hated [my book] ?" "The AI _loved_ it. That's when we knew for sure that _people_ were going to hate it." --Dan Simmons, _Hyperion_ --... ...-- -.. . -. ----. --.- --.- -... tpeters at nospam.mixcom.com (remove "nospam") N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) WEB: http://www.mixcom.com/tpeters 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W, Elevation 815', Grid Square EN53wc WAN/LAN/Telcom Analyst, Tech Writer, MCP, CCNA, Registered Linux User 385531 From emu at e-bbes.com Sun Feb 14 17:07:59 2010 From: emu at e-bbes.com (e.stiebler) Date: Sun, 14 Feb 2010 16:07:59 -0700 Subject: HP-IB, Amigo/cs80 was Re: hp 9153 floppy & disk In-Reply-To: <4B7870A5.2090001@jbrain.com> References: <4B7870A5.2090001@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <4B78824F.6010306@e-bbes.com> Jim Brain wrote: > There has also been significant interest in the CBM world for an uIEEE > solution, so I have sketched out a solution that utilizes the AVR. FOr > the IEEE bus I am considering both the 75160/75161 versus a pair of > input buffers and a pair of TPIC6B273 > high current output > drivers. Currently, the 7516X units are a price premium, but the price > difference is minimal. > The uIEC firmware currently supports FAT16/FAT32 and SD/SDHC/IDE > protocols already, I simply need to write the IEEE support. You have enough I/O pins for the HP-IB bus ? How fast ist this AVR reading and writing from sd-flash ? From brain at jbrain.com Sun Feb 14 17:20:49 2010 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Sun, 14 Feb 2010 17:20:49 -0600 Subject: HP-IB, Amigo/cs80 was Re: hp 9153 floppy & disk In-Reply-To: <4B78824F.6010306@e-bbes.com> References: <4B7870A5.2090001@jbrain.com> <4B78824F.6010306@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: <4B788551.2070701@jbrain.com> On 2/14/2010 5:07 PM, e.stiebler wrote: > Jim Brain wrote: >> There has also been significant interest in the CBM world for an >> uIEEE solution, so I have sketched out a solution that utilizes the >> AVR. FOr the IEEE bus I am considering both the 75160/75161 versus a >> pair of input buffers and a pair of TPIC6B273 >> high current >> output drivers. Currently, the 7516X units are a price premium, but >> the price difference is minimal. > >> The uIEC firmware currently supports FAT16/FAT32 and SD/SDHC/IDE >> protocols already, I simply need to write the IEEE support. > > You have enough I/O pins for the HP-IB bus ? No, which is why I was considering the TPIC and some 74'245s > > How fast ist this AVR reading and writing from sd-flash ? We run the SPI clock at 1MHz, so we can clock in at ~ 125kBPS jim -- Jim Brain, Brain Innovations (X) brain at jbrain.com Dabbling in WWW, Embedded Systems, Old CBM computers, and Good Times! Home: http://www.jbrain.com From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sun Feb 14 17:27:35 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun, 14 Feb 2010 18:27:35 -0500 Subject: Getting to dislike tantalum caps In-Reply-To: <4B784ECD.2020401@bitsavers.org> References: <17641.39335.qm@web110403.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4B759AF5.3080709@garlic.com> <4B7538D3.20133.94F368@cclist.sydex.com> <4B784ECD.2020401@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On 2/14/10, Al Kossow wrote: > Solid Tantalum capacitors have the failure mode he is observing, they short. > > Many electronics companies banned their engineers from designing them in for > this exact reason. When they short, they BURN UP, often taking large chunks > of the circuit board with them. In 1984 or 1985, we had a 10uF tantalum cap blow on a COMBOARD at a customer site. It put a 6mm hole in a six layer board and took out the boards on either side of it in the BA-11 box. I saw the board when it was returned - looked like someone shot it with a .22 at close range. -ethan From geoffr at zipcon.net Sun Feb 14 17:44:36 2010 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoffrey Reed) Date: Sun, 14 Feb 2010 15:44:36 -0800 Subject: Getting to dislike tantalum caps In-Reply-To: <20100214210109.55d3f895.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: On 2/14/10 12:01 PM, "Jochen Kunz" wrote: > On Sun, 14 Feb 2010 12:45:48 -0600 > Randy Dawson wrote: > >> There was some criminal stuff going on with electrolytes in this era, > AFAIK this is an urban legend. And that legend was about aluminium > electrolyte capacitors, not tantalum. Most common faild capacitors > where the low ESR types found in the CPU core voltage regulator on > PeeCee mainboards. Actually it's not urban legend, there was a huge problem with electrolytic caps a few years back, and still popping up as those caps continue to filter through various suppliers stock. What happened is some engineers left one company for another, and they took the electrolyte formula with them, however the formula that they had did not have a good stabilizer in it, and the electrolyte ?boils? And leaks out of the capacitors. A lot of the Taiwanese, Korean, Hong-Kong and Chinese cap manufacturers ended up using the unstable electrolyte and had caps that failed early in their lifespan. Initially PC motherboard manufacturers denied that the problem existed until the threat of lawsuits and bad publicity was brought to bear. MSI for almost 2 years was replacing all the caps on my failed motherboard for free. From cclist at sydex.com Sun Feb 14 18:26:18 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 14 Feb 2010 16:26:18 -0800 Subject: Getting to dislike tantalum caps In-Reply-To: References: <20100214210109.55d3f895.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>, Message-ID: <4B78242A.588.141CEFE@cclist.sydex.com> On 14 Feb 2010 at 15:44, Geoffrey Reed wrote: > Actually it's not urban legend, there was a huge problem with > electrolytic caps a few years back, and still popping up as those caps > continue to filter through various suppliers stock. Oh, heck--bad Chinese capacitors are showing up in new gear too. I just picked up a couple of HP LCD monitors (circa 2007-2008). Both had bulgy filter caps in the power supply. Replaced with new ones (Nichicons), the monitors work fine. I've seen the same thing in lots of other gear as well. I wonder how much of it is discarded before its time. There's a forum dedicated to this phenomenon--badcaps.net. --Chuck From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Sun Feb 14 18:32:02 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2010 00:32:02 +0000 Subject: Getting to dislike tantalum caps In-Reply-To: <773F78C240DD456F97953FEC9340F000@dell8300> References: <17641.39335.qm@web110403.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>, , , , , , <4B759AF5.3080709@garlic.com>, , <4B7538D3.20133.94F368@cclist.sydex.com>, <4B784ECD.2020401@bitsavers.org> <773F78C240DD456F97953FEC9340F000@dell8300> Message-ID: <4B789602.2090005@philpem.me.uk> Teo Zenios wrote: > The aluminum electrolytic were the ones with problems. True, that. Google "Capacitor Plague." It's been happening since the turn of the century, if not a bit earlier. AIUI there are at least three different explanations: - Early SMD electrolytics (the tin-can-on-plastic-base ones) tended to suffer from failures of the sealing plug. Basically, convection or IR soldering made the rubber plug deform, and after a while the cap would just dry out, or leak all over the PCB. - Later SMD capacitors had to be soldered with incredibly exact thermal profiles. Some contract manufacturers upped the peak temperature to get the solder joints to flow better. Catch: this also buggered up the rubber seals on electrolytic caps. Same result as above. - The "industrial espionage" explanation. Some jerkoff stole a chemical formula for a low-ESR capacitor electrolyte from a major Japanese capacitor manufacturer (I've heard the name Rubycon banded about). Of course they only got part of the formula; it was missing a few stabilising chemicals. Result: fzzt-boom after about 500 hours runtime, or electrolyte leaking all over the PCB... And then there's "just plain crap parts." Panasonic, Chemi-Con and Rubycon are usually safe bets (though there are a lot of fake and knock-off parts about -- e.g. "Rulycon" and "Fuhjyuu" -- the latter has the audacity to use a very slightly modified version of Hitachi's logo). There's a database of capacitor manufacturers and their logos here -- . The page is in Japanese, but Google translates it into (mostly) readable English. > Tantalums are nice as long as you don't have a voltage spike (they hate > going above their rated voltage and short). This is why I usually spec them 50 to 100% higher than the highest voltage I expect to see on the power line the cap is filtering. That is to say, if I'm using a tantalum cap on a 5V line, I'll put a 7.5 or 10V capacitor in there. > At least when the aluminum > electrolytic leak/go bad they just quit working (open), hopefully not > eating the circuit board. Though more often than not, they *do* eat the PCB when they pack in, especially the SMD ones... -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From rdawson16 at hotmail.com Sun Feb 14 18:46:00 2010 From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson) Date: Sun, 14 Feb 2010 18:46:00 -0600 Subject: Getting to dislike tantalum caps In-Reply-To: <4B784ECD.2020401@bitsavers.org> References: <17641.39335.qm@web110403.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>, , ,,, , ,,<4B759AF5.3080709@garlic.com>, , , <4B7538D3.20133.94F368@cclist.sydex.com>, , , , <4B784ECD.2020401@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: Sorry Al, I cant resist the war with you, and all caps (pun intended) in your email. We design in a tant cap for the low ESR, and will continue to do so. Have you seen the new low ESR ceramics, surface mount cap that looks like a 0806, but it has multiple terminals along the long side? Pop open a old CPU, they sit along side the chip. You guys must have lotsa time on your hands, and tribal knowledge but no current experience. I wrote about the cap problems in old equipment because they were real in the day, and yes wrong decade. Nicolet did much better in their plotters. I installed a bunch of them, NASA, shuttle and station design teams. I always liked the Nicolet products. Randy Dawson KF7CJW Extra > Date: Sun, 14 Feb 2010 11:28:13 -0800 > From: aek at bitsavers.org > To: > Subject: Re: Getting to dislike tantalum caps > > On 2/14/10 10:45 AM, Randy Dawson wrote: > > > > Dwight, > > > > There was some criminal stuff going on with electrolytes in this era > > This has absolutely NOTHING to due with the problems he is seeing, nor is > it even from the right DECADE. > > Solid Tantalum capacitors have the failure mode he is observing, they short. > > Many electronics companies banned their engineers from designing them in for > this exact reason. When they short, they BURN UP, often taking large chunks of the > circuit board with them. > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail: Free, trusted and rich email service. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/201469228/direct/01/ From rdawson16 at hotmail.com Sun Feb 14 18:49:30 2010 From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson) Date: Sun, 14 Feb 2010 18:49:30 -0600 Subject: Getting to dislike tantalum caps In-Reply-To: <4B789602.2090005@philpem.me.uk> References: <17641.39335.qm@web110403.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>, , ,,, , ,,<4B759AF5.3080709@garlic.com>, , , <4B7538D3.20133.94F368@cclist.sydex.com>, , <4B784ECD.2020401@bitsavers.org>, <773F78C240DD456F97953FEC9340F000@dell8300>, <4B789602.2090005@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: Further, anybody that does radio restoration knows the first step is to "De Cap it" Pull all electrolytics and replace. Ceramic non polar is the way... > Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2010 00:32:02 +0000 > From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk > To: > Subject: Re: Getting to dislike tantalum caps > > Teo Zenios wrote: > > The aluminum electrolytic were the ones with problems. > > True, that. Google "Capacitor Plague." > > It's been happening since the turn of the century, if not a bit earlier. > > AIUI there are at least three different explanations: > - Early SMD electrolytics (the tin-can-on-plastic-base ones) tended > to suffer from failures of the sealing plug. Basically, convection or IR > soldering made the rubber plug deform, and after a while the cap would > just dry out, or leak all over the PCB. > - Later SMD capacitors had to be soldered with incredibly exact > thermal profiles. Some contract manufacturers upped the peak temperature > to get the solder joints to flow better. Catch: this also buggered up > the rubber seals on electrolytic caps. Same result as above. > - The "industrial espionage" explanation. Some jerkoff stole a > chemical formula for a low-ESR capacitor electrolyte from a major > Japanese capacitor manufacturer (I've heard the name Rubycon banded > about). Of course they only got part of the formula; it was missing a > few stabilising chemicals. Result: fzzt-boom after about 500 hours > runtime, or electrolyte leaking all over the PCB... > > And then there's "just plain crap parts." Panasonic, Chemi-Con and > Rubycon are usually safe bets (though there are a lot of fake and > knock-off parts about -- e.g. "Rulycon" and "Fuhjyuu" -- the latter has > the audacity to use a very slightly modified version of Hitachi's logo). > > There's a database of capacitor manufacturers and their logos here -- > . The page is in Japanese, but Google > translates it into (mostly) readable English. > > > Tantalums are nice as long as you don't have a voltage spike (they hate > > going above their rated voltage and short). > > This is why I usually spec them 50 to 100% higher than the highest > voltage I expect to see on the power line the cap is filtering. That is > to say, if I'm using a tantalum cap on a 5V line, I'll put a 7.5 or 10V > capacitor in there. > > > At least when the aluminum > > electrolytic leak/go bad they just quit working (open), hopefully not > > eating the circuit board. > > Though more often than not, they *do* eat the PCB when they pack in, > especially the SMD ones... > > -- > Phil. > classiccmp at philpem.me.uk > http://www.philpem.me.uk/ _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail: Powerful Free email with security by Microsoft. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/201469230/direct/01/ From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Sun Feb 14 18:50:17 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2010 00:50:17 +0000 Subject: Getting to dislike tantalum caps In-Reply-To: <4B78242A.588.141CEFE@cclist.sydex.com> References: <20100214210109.55d3f895.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>, <4B78242A.588.141CEFE@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4B789A49.4090306@philpem.me.uk> Chuck Guzis wrote: > Oh, heck--bad Chinese capacitors are showing up in new gear too. I > just picked up a couple of HP LCD monitors (circa 2007-2008). Both > had bulgy filter caps in the power supply. Replaced with new ones > (Nichicons), the monitors work fine. I've had that with my ca.2007 Viewsonic VX922. It was great "fun" trying to claim on the Viewsonic "guarantee." Quoted because said guarantee isn't worth the paper it's printed on -- the paper slip included with the monitor states that parts and labour are covered, and return shipping. Apparently there's been a "retroactive change in policy" since then and that "no longer applies" -- now customers are expected to pay shipping both ways (to the Netherlands), and the warranty is now two years instead of three. From what I was told, the warranty starts from the date of manufacture, not the date of sale (which I'm pretty sure is illegal under UK law). NEC (aka NEC-Mitsubishi) are scarcely any better. The anti-glare coating started peeling off my old CRT monitor just shy of the guarantee ending. Called them and got the runaround: "Well you must have cleaned it with a chemical solvent." "Only Water and a microfibre cloth, as it says in the instruction book." "Water is a chemical solvent." I ended up being passed back and forth between two different CSRs, then finally to a "customer services supervisor" who stated quite plainly that "any failure of the anti-glare coating would be considered customer misuse and void the guarantee entirely." "So what if, say, the power supply fails?" "Well, you'd have to pay for that because the warranty is voided by the CRT damage." It'll be a cold day in hell before NEC or Viewsonic see any more of my money. Perhaps it's just me, but monitor manufacturers really seem to be the lowest-of-the-low for customer service. The only companies with a worse rating (IME) are computer parts suppliers. As for the Viewsonic, I opened it up, catalogued all the electrolytics, then bought a full set of Panasonic parts from Farnell. Had the monitor working again by 4pm. Eight capacitors, most soldered between power and ground, none of which had any form of thermal relief against the ground plane. The PCBs have BIG ground planes. Soldering them was not fun. > There's a forum dedicated to this phenomenon--badcaps.net. And a very useful forum it is, too. -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Feb 14 18:55:33 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 14 Feb 2010 19:55:33 -0500 Subject: Getting to dislike tantalum caps In-Reply-To: <4B789602.2090005@philpem.me.uk> References: <17641.39335.qm@web110403.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4B759AF5.3080709@garlic.com> <4B7538D3.20133.94F368@cclist.sydex.com> <4B784ECD.2020401@bitsavers.org> <773F78C240DD456F97953FEC9340F000@dell8300> <4B789602.2090005@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: > It's been happening since the turn of the century, if not a bit earlier. Which century? Crap parts have been around forever. -- Will From spectre at floodgap.com Sun Feb 14 19:42:20 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun, 14 Feb 2010 17:42:20 -0800 (PST) Subject: Y2K retrospective / was Re: Algol vs ... In-Reply-To: <01CAAD96.3BB07480@MSE_D03> from M H Stein at "Feb 14, 10 04:50:05 pm" Message-ID: <201002150142.o1F1gKkr013276@floodgap.com> > Unless I just missed it I haven't noticed any reference in this thread > to the upcoming Y2K38: > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Year_2038_problem And then of course the classic Mac epoch ends in 2040: http://www.computerhope.com/jargon/e/epoch.htm ... although I "heard" that the Date/Time control panel can't cope with dates past 2020. Anyone confirm this? -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- There are three kinds of people: those who can count and those who can't. -- From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sun Feb 14 20:21:34 2010 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sun, 14 Feb 2010 18:21:34 -0800 Subject: Nicolet DSO & analog comps / was Re: Getting to dislike tantalum caps References: <17641.39335.qm@web110403.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>, , , , <4B759AF5.3080709@garlic.com>, <4B7538D3.20133.94F368@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4B78AFAE.C358B310@cs.ubc.ca> dwight elvey wrote: > I begining to dislike these things. > I recently got an old 2090 Nicolet DSO ( Digital scope ). > When I got it, it had a blown tantilum on the 5V > for the I/O section. I fixed this and the blown regulator > along with it. There are two Nicolet DSO at theradio museum here, a 1090A and a 2090-III. I played with the 1090 when it first arrived a few years ago, until the switching power supply blew up. I RE'd the power supply to produce the schematic but didn't get around to repairing it. The 2090 I haven't even tried powering up yet. IIRC from when I was working on it, the 1090 is 8080-based. JOOI, have you determined what microproc the 2090 uses? > I originally got it so that I could display things from > my analog computer ( That I'm having fun with ). > I powered it up and was just getting the parameters > right for a nice Rose Engine display when the display > went to a defocused dot. I'm also interested in hearing about analog computer work, would like to go back to working on programs for mine sometime: http://www.cs.ubc.ca/~hilpert/e/tyrotek/index.html From jfoust at threedee.com Sun Feb 14 20:20:14 2010 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun, 14 Feb 2010 20:20:14 -0600 Subject: Getting to dislike tantalum caps In-Reply-To: References: <17641.39335.qm@web110403.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4B759AF5.3080709@garlic.com> <4B7538D3.20133.94F368@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <201002150225.o1F2PY2m022323@billY.EZWIND.NET> At 12:45 PM 2/14/2010, Randy Dawson wrote: > I had a note from a pro video repair shop, saying that to get a $15,000 pro video camera back in operation would require the replacement of all the tant caps, as they were all destined to fail, and yet another trip to the shop. For me, it was a late 80s Sony consumer camera that failed slowly in the mid 90s... I recorded the first few years of my kids' lives with it. I could immediately rewind and see that it was still recording, but recordings from a year before were unplayable. Something about the fading caps would smell like tuna fish. I'm not sure how I'll ever be able to recover those recordings. Anyone have an 8mm helical low-level digitizer with software recovery of drifting video tracks yet? - John From hachti at hachti.de Sun Feb 14 21:35:55 2010 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2010 04:35:55 +0100 Subject: Docs found: Some docs scanned In-Reply-To: <4B7842F7.5080001@bitsavers.org> References: <4B783B32.2050203@hachti.de> <4B7842F7.5080001@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4B78C11B.2040208@hachti.de> > That will make the B-205 fans happy. > The TM-2 manual has been difficult to find. Whoever those are :-) Did you pick some of the rest? -- http://www.hachti.de From hachti at hachti.de Sun Feb 14 21:36:26 2010 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2010 04:36:26 +0100 Subject: Docs found: Honeywell 800, Facit PE1000, Rank Xerox In-Reply-To: References: <4B735F6E.2010802@hachti.de> Message-ID: <4B78C13A.9050900@hachti.de> Rich Alderson wrote: > Oh, yes, please save the Sigma manuals!!!! --rma Online. See next posting. -- http://www.hachti.de From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sun Feb 14 21:57:26 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sun, 14 Feb 2010 19:57:26 -0800 Subject: Nicolet DSO & analog comps / was Re: Getting to dislike tantalum caps In-Reply-To: <4B78AFAE.C358B310@cs.ubc.ca> References: <17641.39335.qm@web110403.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>, ,,, , , <4B759AF5.3080709@garlic.com>, , <4B7538D3.20133.94F368@cclist.sydex.com>, , <4B78AFAE.C358B310@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: > Date: Sun, 14 Feb 2010 18:21:34 -0800 > From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca > To: General at invalid.domain > Subject: Nicolet DSO & analog comps / was Re: Getting to dislike tantalum caps > > dwight elvey wrote: > > I begining to dislike these things. > > I recently got an old 2090 Nicolet DSO ( Digital scope ). > > When I got it, it had a blown tantilum on the 5V > > for the I/O section. I fixed this and the blown regulator > > along with it. > > There are two Nicolet DSO at theradio museum here, a 1090A and a 2090-III. > I played with the 1090 when it first arrived a few years ago, until the > switching power supply blew up. I RE'd the power supply to produce the > schematic but didn't get around to repairing it. > > The 2090 I haven't even tried powering up yet. > > IIRC from when I was working on it, the 1090 is 8080-based. JOOI, have you > determined what microproc the 2090 uses? > Hi It uses one TMS9900 for the disk drive and another TMS9900 for the I/O ( GPIB or serial depending on an option module ). The mainframe use 3 2901 bit slice. > > > I originally got it so that I could display things from > > my analog computer ( That I'm having fun with ). > > I powered it up and was just getting the parameters > > right for a nice Rose Engine display when the display > > went to a defocused dot. > > I'm also interested in hearing about analog computer work, would like to go back > to working on programs for mine sometime: > http://www.cs.ubc.ca/~hilpert/e/tyrotek/index.html There always fun to play with. I like the Rose Engine work but I'm just begining to get the hang of it. Making an oscillator that doesn't dampen out or clip is the first trick. Adding and multiplying are then used to combine them into interesting things. Others like to use them for music synthasis or simulations of physical problems. I just like the pictures they make. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail: Free, trusted and rich email service. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/201469228/direct/01/ From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sun Feb 14 22:14:06 2010 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sun, 14 Feb 2010 20:14:06 -0800 Subject: Nicolet DSO & analog comps / was Re: Getting to disliketantalum caps References: <17641.39335.qm@web110403.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>, ,,, , , <4B759AF5.3080709@garlic.com>, , <4B7538D3.20133.94F368@cclist.sydex.com>, , <4B78AFAE.C358B310@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <4B78CA0E.D5156AEC@cs.ubc.ca> dwight elvey wrote: > > From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca > > IIRC from when I was working on it, the 1090 is 8080-based. JOOI, have you > > determined what microproc the 2090 uses? > > It uses one TMS9900 for the disk drive and another TMS9900 for the > I/O ( GPIB or serial depending on an option module ). > The mainframe use 3 2901 bit slice. Sounds neat, something a little more interesting than a Z80 or some such; I'm going to have to open up the one at the museum just to see. > > > I originally got it so that I could display things from > > > my analog computer ( That I'm having fun with ). > > > I powered it up and was just getting the parameters > > > right for a nice Rose Engine display when the display > > > went to a defocused dot. > > > > I'm also interested in hearing about analog computer work, would like to go back > > to working on programs for mine sometime: > > http://www.cs.ubc.ca/~hilpert/e/tyrotek/index.html > > There always fun to play with. I like the Rose Engine work but I'm just > begining to get the hang of it. Making an oscillator that doesn't dampen out > or clip is the first trick. Adding and multiplying are then used to combine > them into interesting things. > Others like to use them for music synthasis or simulations of physical > problems. I just like the pictures they make. I can hope for as much, I currently don't have any graphical display for the analog computer. I have to either rejuvenate an old graph recorder for the display (would be 'period consistent'), do as you are doing and get one of these Nicolet DSO's going, or build a repeat-cycling unit for the computer so the display can be refreshed onto an ordinary oscilloscope. From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Feb 14 22:23:28 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 14 Feb 2010 23:23:28 -0500 Subject: Nicolet DSO & analog comps / was Re: Getting to dislike tantalum caps In-Reply-To: References: <17641.39335.qm@web110403.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>, , , , , , <4B759AF5.3080709@garlic.com>, , <4B7538D3.20133.94F368@cclist.sydex.com>, , <4B78AFAE.C358B310@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <3F982A4F-372E-475D-B4ED-C659B13A8B07@neurotica.com> On Feb 14, 2010, at 10:57 PM, dwight elvey wrote: >>> I originally got it so that I could display things from >>> my analog computer ( That I'm having fun with ). >>> I powered it up and was just getting the parameters >>> right for a nice Rose Engine display when the display >>> went to a defocused dot. >> >> I'm also interested in hearing about analog computer work, would >> like to go back >> to working on programs for mine sometime: >> http://www.cs.ubc.ca/~hilpert/e/tyrotek/index.html > > There always fun to play with. I like the Rose Engine work but I'm > just > > begining to get the hang of it. Making an oscillator that doesn't > dampen out > > or clip is the first trick. Adding and multiplying are then used to > combine > > them into interesting things. > > Others like to use them for music synthasis or simulations of > physical > > problems. I just like the pictures they make. Pics? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sun Feb 14 22:29:52 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sun, 14 Feb 2010 20:29:52 -0800 Subject: Nicolet DSO & analog comps / was Re: Getting to dislike tantalum caps In-Reply-To: <3F982A4F-372E-475D-B4ED-C659B13A8B07@neurotica.com> References: <17641.39335.qm@web110403.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>, , ,,, , ,,<4B759AF5.3080709@garlic.com>, , , <4B7538D3.20133.94F368@cclist.sydex.com>, , , , <4B78AFAE.C358B310@cs.ubc.ca>, , <3F982A4F-372E-475D-B4ED-C659B13A8B07@neurotica.com> Message-ID: > From: mcguire at neurotica.com ---snip--- I don't has a web page to dump megabytes of pictures on. Dwight > > > > problems. I just like the pictures they make. > > Pics? > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire > Port Charlotte, FL > _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail: Powerful Free email with security by Microsoft. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/201469230/direct/01/ From ploopster at gmail.com Sun Feb 14 22:43:00 2010 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sun, 14 Feb 2010 23:43:00 -0500 Subject: Getting to dislike tantalum caps In-Reply-To: References: <17641.39335.qm@web110403.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4B759AF5.3080709@garlic.com> <4B7538D3.20133.94F368@cclist.sydex.com> <4B784ECD.2020401@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4B78D0D4.7050302@gmail.com> Ethan Dicks wrote: >> Solid Tantalum capacitors have the failure mode he is observing, they short. >> >> Many electronics companies banned their engineers from designing them in for >> this exact reason. When they short, they BURN UP, often taking large chunks >> of the circuit board with them. > > In 1984 or 1985, we had a 10uF tantalum cap blow on a COMBOARD at a > customer site. It put a 6mm hole in a six layer board and took out > the boards on either side of it in the BA-11 box. > > I saw the board when it was returned - looked like someone shot it > with a .22 at close range. Plus I'll bet the smell was pretty interesting. Peace... Sridhar From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sun Feb 14 22:44:43 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sun, 14 Feb 2010 20:44:43 -0800 Subject: Getting to dislike tantalum caps In-Reply-To: References: <17641.39335.qm@web110403.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>, , <4B759AF5.3080709@garlic.com> <4B7538D3.20133.94F368@cclist.sydex.com>, , , <4B784ECD.2020401@bitsavers.org>, <773F78C240DD456F97953FEC9340F000@dell8300>, <4B789602.2090005@philpem.me.uk>, Message-ID: Hi As much as I don't like tantalums ( and I've seen a few burned boards in my time ), electrolytic have another nasty problem. Most designs use them for bypass caps. These tend to be way over designed so that even an old dry one or two make little difference. The problem happens when they get to the point that there just isn't enough capacitance left in them that they no long provide the function they we there for. If it is a power supply filter, it is usually easy to find but bad bypass caps often cause intermittent failures that are really had to find. It is also true about the electrolytic caps with the bad electrolyte formula. These didn't just gracefully die. They would dump their electrolyte on the board and electro-strip ( made up word ) the traces from the board. Really nasty. It was a chemical company that was selling bad electrolyte to various cap manufactures. Even some of the ones listed here as the only ones they'd use. I know because we manufactures computers with these bad ones and we had a list of which run numbers were bad from each manufacture. By the way, some were japanese but most were made in Taiwan not ROC. So, as much as I don't like caps, unless they start distributing 3 phase to peoples houses, we're stuck with capacitors, unlike the Cray that used no filters caps. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail: Trusted email with powerful SPAM protection. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/201469227/direct/01/ From cclist at sydex.com Sun Feb 14 23:43:46 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 14 Feb 2010 21:43:46 -0800 Subject: Getting to dislike tantalum caps In-Reply-To: References: <17641.39335.qm@web110403.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>, , Message-ID: <4B786E92.4178.2647416@cclist.sydex.com> On 14 Feb 2010 at 20:44, dwight elvey wrote: > Most designs use them for bypass caps. These tend to be way over > designed so that even an old dry one or two make little > difference. Where I've seen most of the failures is where they're used on switching supplies as filter capacitors. With the high ripple frequency, I suspect it's a problem with a too-high ESR that eventually causes these to destruct. Filter caps on linear line- frequency supplies generally last a lot longer, though even they dry out eventually. --Chuck From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Mon Feb 15 00:14:04 2010 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2010 00:14:04 -0600 Subject: Manual scanning: TIFF-to-PDF software with greyscale support? In-Reply-To: References: <4B264882.4010901@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4B78E62C.50407@brutman.com> Wulf daMan wrote: > On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 8:15 AM, Philip Pemberton > wrote: >> Hi guys, >> I'm after a program that can convert TIFF files into PDFs. I've seen Eric >> Smith's "Tumble" app, which works great... but only for B&W TIFFs. While I > > I've used tiff2pdf for many years with great success. It offers > various compression options, and the output has always been excellent. > Unfortunately, I can't help you on the OCR side. > > --Shaun > Digging up an old thread, but for a good reason. I'm trying to scan some pages from an IBM Tech Ref. A friend needs the pages on the 5161 expansion unit. I've got 400dpi TIFF images. But tiff2pdf is giving me PDF files that are much lower quality than what I'm putting in. After 2 or three hours I don't have a solution and I'm just mad. :-( What is the trick on tiff2pdf to get higher resolution output? Mike From pat at computer-refuge.org Mon Feb 15 00:04:19 2010 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2010 01:04:19 -0500 Subject: Nicolet DSO & analog comps / was Re: Getting to dislike =?iso-8859-1?q?tantalum=09caps?= In-Reply-To: References: <17641.39335.qm@web110403.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <3F982A4F-372E-475D-B4ED-C659B13A8B07@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <201002150104.19766.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Sunday 14 February 2010, dwight elvey wrote: > > From: mcguire at neurotica.com > > ---snip--- > > I don't has a web page to dump megabytes of pictures > > on. Flickr, or any of the other free photo hosting sites? Rumor has it that even Tony Duell uses flickr... Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From pontus at Update.UU.SE Mon Feb 15 01:17:55 2010 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2010 08:17:55 +0100 Subject: Docs found: Some docs scanned In-Reply-To: <4B783B32.2050203@hachti.de> References: <4B783B32.2050203@hachti.de> Message-ID: <20100215071755.GB21195@Update.UU.SE> Here is what I would want: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hlOQuuLYavY Al: what hardware have you used to scan old books? Cheers, Pontus. On Sun, Feb 14, 2010 at 07:04:34PM +0100, Philipp Hachtmann wrote: > Hi folks, > > I arranged to get one of those office machines that do everything. And scanned a box of documents. > This is how it looks when I use it: > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=70m0ZdcFOuE > > If anybody has some money to help me funding my copy machine - > please let me know..... It cost me most of what I could spend at the > moment. > > I uploaded the documents to: > > http://pdp8.hachti.de/newscan/box1 > > Feel free to take what's needed and archive it. My files will not stay there for forever! > > Here's a list of the box1 directory: > ************************************ > > > >hachti at sumpf64:~/scanner/ready/box1$ ls * > >ampex: > >5104036-10 TM-2 Technical Manual for Siemens+Halske April 1965 > >.pdf > > > >cdc: > >41247200 Rev. B 9465 Disk Storage Drive Maintenance Manual.pdf 41248800 Rev. D 9465 Disk Storage Drive Schematics.pdf > > > >dartmouth_dtss: > >20100212100751305.pdf 20100212101335486.pdf > > > >emulex: > >CD1151007 Rev. B CS11_F1 Technical Manual.pdf > > > >facit: > >PE1000 Technical Description, German.pdf UP631001 FACIT PE 1000 Paper Tape Reader Spare Parts.pdf > >UP630201 FACIT PE 1000 Paper Tape Reader Manual.pdf > > > >honeywell: > >BJ67A Rev. 1 Series 600_6000 FORTRAN Addendum A.pdf > >BJ67 Rev. 1 Series 600_6000 FORTRAN Manual.pdf > >BP82 Rev. 0 Series 600_6000 Biomedical (BMD) Statistical Programs Reference Manual.pdf > >BS06 Rev. 1 Series 600_6000 Jovial Language Manual.pdf > >BS11A Rev. 0 Series 600_6000 Algol Addendum A.pdf > >BS11 Rev. 0 Series 600_6000 Algol Manual.pdf > >D43A Rev. 0 Series 600_6000 Time-Sharing Applicatons Library Guide I - Mathematics, Addendum A.pdf > >D43 Rev. 0 Series 600_6000 Time-Sharing Applicatons Library Guide I - Mathematics.pdf > >DA44A Rev. 0 Series 600_6000 Time-Sharing Applications Library Guide II - Statistics, Addendum A.pdf > >DA44 Rev. 0 Series 600_6000 Time-Sharing Applications Library Guide II - Statistics.pdf > >DA45A Rev. 2 Series 600_6000 Time-Sharing Applications Library Guide III - Industry, Addendum A.pdf > >DA45B Rev. 2 Series 600_6000 Time-Sharing Applications Library Guide III - Industry, Addendum B.pdf > >DA45 Rev. 2 Series 600_6000 Time-Sharing Applications Library Guide III - Industry.pdf > >DA64 Rev. 1 Series 600_6000 Time-Sharing Applications Library Guide IV - Business+Finance.pdf > > > >plessey: > >PM-TC11 Drawing Package.pdf > > > >xerox: > >190572C Rank Xerox extended Algol-60 Language and Operations Reference Manual.pdf > >191692A Xerox Universal Time-Sharing System (UTS) Users Guide.pdf > >900907E Xerox Control-Program-Five (CP-V) Time-Sharing Reference Manual.pdf > >901677A-1(9-71) Xerox FORTRAN Debug Package (FDP) Revision Package.pdf > >901677A Xerox FORTRAN Debug Package (FDP) Reference Manual.pdf > >901733C Sigma 9 Computer Reference Manual.pdf > >901765A Xerox Operating System (XOS) Batch Processing Reference Manual.pdf > > > > >hachti at sumpf64:~/scanner/ready/box1$ du -h > >41M ./facit > >396M ./xerox > >511M ./honeywell > >123M ./plessey > >124M ./ampex > >32M ./emulex > >146M ./cdc > >110M ./dartmouth_dtss > >1,5G . > > ****************************** > > Best wishes, > > Philipp > > > > > > -- > http://www.hachti.de From pontus at Update.UU.SE Mon Feb 15 07:13:33 2010 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2010 14:13:33 +0100 Subject: VAX graphics Message-ID: <20100215131333.GA14278@Update.UU.SE> Hi All. I just stumbled upon this video of a computer tablet: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aPC_w9yYe5M They show a VAX-11/780 with RP06 and TU70 (I think) and claim its doing the graphics. But I'm curious, what terminal and software is used? Does anyone have a clue? Regards, Pontus. From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Feb 15 08:18:27 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2010 09:18:27 -0500 Subject: VAX graphics In-Reply-To: <20100215131333.GA14278@Update.UU.SE> References: <20100215131333.GA14278@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: > I just stumbled upon this video of a computer tablet: Ah, I see you were spending the evening viewing poodle hair videos. -- Will From als at thangorodrim.de Mon Feb 15 08:25:39 2010 From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber) Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2010 15:25:39 +0100 Subject: Manual scanning: TIFF-to-PDF software with greyscale support? In-Reply-To: <4B78E62C.50407@brutman.com> References: <4B264882.4010901@philpem.me.uk> <4B78E62C.50407@brutman.com> Message-ID: <20100215142539.GA8102@sam.angband.thangorodrim.de> On Mon, Feb 15, 2010 at 12:14:04AM -0600, Michael B. Brutman wrote: > Wulf daMan wrote: >> On Mon, Dec 14, 2009 at 8:15 AM, Philip Pemberton >> wrote: >>> Hi guys, >>> I'm after a program that can convert TIFF files into PDFs. I've seen Eric >>> Smith's "Tumble" app, which works great... but only for B&W TIFFs. While I >> >> I've used tiff2pdf for many years with great success. It offers >> various compression options, and the output has always been excellent. >> Unfortunately, I can't help you on the OCR side. >> >> --Shaun >> > > Digging up an old thread, but for a good reason. > > I'm trying to scan some pages from an IBM Tech Ref. A friend needs the > pages on the 5161 expansion unit. > > I've got 400dpi TIFF images. But tiff2pdf is giving me PDF files that > are much lower quality than what I'm putting in. After 2 or three hours > I don't have a solution and I'm just mad. :-( > > What is the trick on tiff2pdf to get higher resolution output? If all you are doing black&white scans, there is an easier way: - scan to bilevel TIFF, ideally compressed using fax G4 - feed the TIFF to tumble[0] to get compact bilevel PDF For my own archival scanning: - scan at 600 dpi to bilevel TIFF - convert TIFF to use fax G4 compression - tar up the TIFF files for archival - feed the TIFF files to tumble to produce PDF for archival - feed the TIFF files to a conversion chain that emits DJVU for archival The scans are pretty compact and I end up with the data in three different open formats, so the odds of being able to read them a few years down the road should be reasonably good ;-) Side benefit: due to the rather high resolution, the prints done from the archival PDFs tend to be much better than Xerox copies (printing with a 600 dpi laserjet). And the resolution is high enough to get reasonable results for OCR, when needed. Kind regards, Alex. [0] http://tumble.brouhaha.com/ -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison From roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk Mon Feb 15 10:05:25 2010 From: roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk (Roger Holmes) Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2010 16:05:25 +0000 Subject: Docs found: Some docs scanned In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1D7BF2B1-FD67-48DD-A057-42E5852CAC96@microspot.co.uk> > > From: Al Kossow > Subject: Re: Docs found: Some docs scanned > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Message-ID: <4B7842F7.5080001 at bitsavers.org> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15; format=flowed > > On 2/14/10 10:04 AM, Philipp Hachtmann wrote: > >> ampex: 5104036-10 TM-2 >>> Technical Manual for Siemens+Halske April 1965 .pdf > > > That will make the B-205 fans happy. > The TM-2 manual has been difficult to find. When it eventually appears on BitSavers it will be interesting to compare with the half inch (TM4) version I have. Could you please tell me (or the list) when it goes up. Roger Holmes. From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Mon Feb 15 10:12:18 2010 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2010 10:12:18 -0600 Subject: Manual scanning: TIFF-to-PDF software with greyscale support? In-Reply-To: <20100215142539.GA8102@sam.angband.thangorodrim.de> References: <4B264882.4010901@philpem.me.uk> <4B78E62C.50407@brutman.com> <20100215142539.GA8102@sam.angband.thangorodrim.de> Message-ID: <4B797262.3020304@brutman.com> I think I figured my TIFF to PDF problem out. When I say 'Zoom 100%', I expect each bit of my image to be displayed with no scaling. Well, Acrobat Reader doesn't work that way. AR assumes screen resolution, so what was a 400 dpi bitmap at 100% zoom on AR gets downsampled to 72dpi for display purposes. To get back to see individual pixels you have to zoom to 555% or something nutty like that. I tried it and it looks like all of my pixels are there. Can anybody else confirm this (bad) behavior? Mike From tshoppa at wmata.com Mon Feb 15 12:34:54 2010 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim) Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2010 13:34:54 -0500 Subject: Manual scanning: TIFF-to-PDF software with greyscale support? Message-ID: > When I say 'Zoom 100%', I expect each bit of my image to be displayed > with no scaling. Well, Acrobat Reader doesn't work that way. AR > assumes screen resolution, so what was a 400 dpi bitmap at 100% zoom on > AR gets downsampled to 72dpi for display purposes. To get back to see > individual pixels you have to zoom to 555% or something nutty like that. > > I tried it and it looks like all of my pixels are there. Can anybody > else confirm this (bad) behavior? Bad? PDF's are fundamentally a VECTOR format. A vector format designed around typography where the most natural unit since long before computers has been the point (=1/72 inch). PDF documents, it so happens, can include bitmap images at arbitrary scalings. Vector formats natively have NO KNOWLEDGE of a pixel and in fact when you include a bitmap image in a PDF (which is kinda bastardized because it does have some actually quite thorough bitmap support) it can be scaled so that a pixel in the bitmap is any arbitrary size in number of points. If there was any "bad behavior" it may have been... Adobe putting support in PDF's for bitmaps? Most current display devices just happen to be raster formats showing bitmaps, but my gut feeling is that this shortcoming will be corrected and we will go back to vector display devices Real Soon Now. How soon? In fact I'm going to go use my Tek 4014 right now :-) Tim. From legalize at xmission.com Mon Feb 15 12:26:28 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2010 11:26:28 -0700 Subject: VAX graphics In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 15 Feb 2010 14:13:33 +0100. <20100215131333.GA14278@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: In article <20100215131333.GA14278 at Update.UU.SE>, Pontus Pihlgren writes: > I just stumbled upon this video of a computer tablet: > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aPC_w9yYe5M > > They show a VAX-11/780 with RP06 and TU70 (I think) and claim its doing > the graphics. But I'm curious, what terminal and software is used? Does > anyone have a clue? Since its 1986, the software is most likely custom. The terminal *could* be a DEC gigi in which case the graphics are actually generated and displayed directly by the gigi. If its not a gigi, its just some VT1xx type terminal. The gigi has a keyboard layout similar to a VT100, but no dedicated monitor and a deeper keyboard case, somewhat like an Atari or Commodore PC. However, the gigi has a single display output[*] that is either in text mode or in graphics mode, so I don't think this is a gigi in this case. It is more likely that the VAX has a dumb frame buffer in it with the video cables running out to this monitor. You never really see a closeup of the terminal or any explanation of how the image is being displayed, so its hard to say exactly. [*] http://bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/terminal/gigi/EK-VK100-IN-002_GIGI_Terminal_Installation_and_Owners_Manual_Apr81.pdf -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From RichA at vulcan.com Mon Feb 15 12:51:21 2010 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2010 10:51:21 -0800 Subject: What's the point? [was RE: Manual scanning: TIFF-to-PDF software with greyscale support?] In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: From: Shoppa, Tim Sent: Monday, February 15, 2010 10:35 AM > PDF's are fundamentally a VECTOR format. A vector format designed around > typography where the most natural unit since long before computers has been > the point (=1/72 inch). Technically, 100/7227 inch, which is to say, there are 72.27 points per inch in typography prior to the creation of the Macintosh. (I don't believe that Postscript originally used a 1/72 measure, and TeX certainly didn't, so I can't just say "non-computerized typography".) If you think *this* mailing list goes off-topic from time to time, you should check out the Letpress mailing list, for metal type and ink folks. Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.PDPplanet.org/ http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk Mon Feb 15 13:13:10 2010 From: roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk (Roger Holmes) Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2010 19:13:10 +0000 Subject: HP DraftMaster MX Plotter User's Guide and SX,RX & MX Plus version In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <63593257-07F7-42E6-B793-7F8B3EBFF08C@microspot.co.uk> I can't remember who wanted them but I have the HP DraftMaster MX Plotter User's Guide and theHP DraftMaster Plotter SX Plus, ,RX Plus and MX Plus User's Guide if you still need them. Covers everything from loading paper through serial communications setup to command set and even 8 types of power cords. From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Mon Feb 15 13:14:21 2010 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2010 13:14:21 -0600 Subject: Manual scanning: TIFF-to-PDF software with greyscale support? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B799D0D.50907@brutman.com> Shoppa, Tim wrote: >> When I say 'Zoom 100%', I expect each bit of my image to be displayed >> with no scaling. Well, Acrobat Reader doesn't work that way. AR >> assumes screen resolution, so what was a 400 dpi bitmap at 100% zoom on >> AR gets downsampled to 72dpi for display purposes. To get back to see >> individual pixels you have to zoom to 555% or something nutty like that. >> >> I tried it and it looks like all of my pixels are there. Can anybody >> else confirm this (bad) behavior? > > Bad? PDF's are fundamentally a VECTOR format. A vector format designed around typography where the most natural unit since long before computers has been the point (=1/72 inch). > > PDF documents, it so happens, can include bitmap images at arbitrary scalings. > > Vector formats natively have NO KNOWLEDGE of a pixel and in fact when you include a bitmap image in a PDF (which is kinda bastardized because it does have some actually quite thorough bitmap support) it can be scaled so that a pixel in the bitmap is any arbitrary size in number of points. > > If there was any "bad behavior" it may have been... Adobe putting support in PDF's for bitmaps? > > Most current display devices just happen to be raster formats showing bitmaps, but my gut feeling is that this shortcoming will be corrected and we will go back to vector display devices Real Soon Now. How soon? In fact I'm going to go use my Tek 4014 right now :-) > > Tim. > Tim, Thanks for the lesson, but I am quite aware of those points already and I was pretty clear when I posted and said that my source documentation was a raster image. I'm using PDF for ease of distribution. Also, I object to the redefinition of "100% zoom" in Acrobat Reader, which was the source of my confusion last night. I was looking for confirmation that this is indeed the behavior that PDF viewers have. From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Feb 15 13:40:10 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2010 14:40:10 -0500 Subject: VAX graphics In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <301A0450-6DC9-4465-859F-5E957296BBDD@neurotica.com> On Feb 15, 2010, at 1:26 PM, Richard wrote: >> I just stumbled upon this video of a computer tablet: >> >> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aPC_w9yYe5M >> >> They show a VAX-11/780 with RP06 and TU70 (I think) and claim its >> doing >> the graphics. But I'm curious, what terminal and software is used? >> Does >> anyone have a clue? > > Since its 1986, the software is most likely custom. > > The terminal *could* be a DEC gigi in which case the graphics are > actually generated and displayed directly by the gigi. If its not a > gigi, its just some VT1xx type terminal. The gigi has a keyboard > layout similar to a VT100, but no dedicated monitor and a deeper > keyboard case, somewhat like an Atari or Commodore PC. > > However, the gigi has a single display output[*] that is either in > text > mode or in graphics mode, so I don't think this is a gigi in this > case. > It is more likely that the VAX has a dumb frame buffer in it with the > video cables running out to this monitor. > > You never really see a closeup of the terminal or any explanation of > how the image is being displayed, so its hard to say exactly. It doesn't look like a GIGI. You can see the keyboard in front of the monitor, and it's pretty clearly a VT100 keyboard. The GIGI's keyboard looks identical, but its case is much deeper. The thing that makes me wonder is that I don't see the rest of the VT100. I suppose it *could* be a VT125, but with the VT125 chassis on the floor or something, driving the external monitor. That would account for the presence of the VT100 keyboard. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From tshoppa at wmata.com Mon Feb 15 13:41:51 2010 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim) Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2010 14:41:51 -0500 Subject: What's the point? [was RE: Manual scanning: TIFF-to-PDF software with greyscale support?] Message-ID: Rich wrote: > Tim wrote: >> PDF's are fundamentally a VECTOR format. A vector format designed around >> typography where the most natural unit since long before computers has been >> the point (=1/72 inch). > Technically, 100/7227 inch, which is to say, there are 72.27 points per inch > in typography prior to the creation of the Macintosh. (I don't believe that > Postscript originally used a 1/72 measure, and TeX certainly didn't, so I can't > just say "non-computerized typography".) I'm pretty sure when I learned typography the numbers I was taught was that Cicero was 6 lines to the inch, and that it was a 12 point font. Maybe neither of those numbers are actually correct. That was all before I had used computers although I think it's possible that Postscript was a glimmer in someone's eye by that point. I briefly used an IBM Composer and I'm pretty sure that defined a point = 1/72 inch before postscript ever did, although it seems likely that it didn't originate the 1/72 measure either. Most computer line printers were six lines to the inch, 66 lines to 11 inch page. This was set by geartrain if nothing else :-). I think the Model 33 is the same. > If you think *this* mailing list goes off-topic from time to time, you should > check out the Letpress mailing list, for metal type and ink folks. Knuth's Metafont book closely brought together for me, for the first time, computers and typography, and they've been closely linked for me ever since. I could've sword that I read that a point = 1/72 inch in there but despite some desparate scouring he uses "point" as base unit with absolutely no attempt to map it into inches. Tim. From tshoppa at wmata.com Mon Feb 15 13:51:16 2010 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim) Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2010 14:51:16 -0500 Subject: Manual scanning: TIFF-to-PDF software with greyscale support? Message-ID: > Thanks for the lesson, but I am quite aware of those points already and > I was pretty clear when I posted and said that my source documentation > was a raster image. I'm using PDF for ease of distribution. > Also, I object to the redefinition of "100% zoom" in Acrobat Reader, > which was the source of my confusion last night. I was looking for > confirmation that this is indeed the behavior that PDF viewers have. I wasn't really trying to be pedantic. If you really want tools that natively and in the user interface constantly refer back to pixels in the original scan, then you really have to stick to formats that are innately raster based. TIFF, PNG, etc. I maintain my scanned images as PNG's. I used to have a real hatred for PDF's as a way of showing raster bitmaps but have learned to respect my enemy in this case :-). (Incidentally I am still a big fan of SVG despite Adobe's abandonment of it.) I think at least some of the TIFF formats can contain tags for how large each pixel was in the original source. Don't know how standard vs proprietary these tags are. Good multi-page PDF viewers are freely available. The free, distributed with the OS, TIFF viewers by contrast are perhaps even suckier than they were a decade ago. Tim. From drb at msu.edu Mon Feb 15 13:07:28 2010 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2010 14:07:28 -0500 Subject: VAX graphics In-Reply-To: (Your message of Mon, 15 Feb 2010 11:26:28 MST.) References: Message-ID: <201002151907.o1FJ7S4c026468@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > > They show a VAX-11/780 with RP06 and TU70 (I think) and claim its > > doing the graphics. But I'm curious, what terminal and software is > > used? Does anyone have a clue? > You never really see a closeup of the terminal or any explanation of how > the image is being displayed, so its hard to say exactly. If you look closely there's a text terminal of some sort, green screen with the menu, and the graphic display. The keyboard for the text terminal looks fairly VT-100ish, though the screen itself doesn't look quite right to me. (It is hard to see, so ymmv.) At a guess, there are two serial lines -- vt100ish terminal, tablet -- and a video link from a graphics card (maybe a VT-30?) in the VAX to the work area. Perhaps someone should contact the poster of the video to see if they have a higher resolution copy which could be studied without the $deityawful youtube compression. De From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Feb 15 13:32:19 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2010 19:32:19 +0000 (GMT) Subject: HP-IB, Amigo/cs80 was Re: hp 9153 floppy & disk In-Reply-To: <4B786608.4040802@e-bbes.com> from "e.stiebler" at Feb 14, 10 02:07:20 pm Message-ID: > > Tony Duell wrote: > > My (serious) approach too. One chip + buffers (to HPIB) + the flash > > memory device. And since you really need that chip to be a processor (you > > try doing the CS/80 protocol in random logic ;-)),, it makes more sense > > to use a microcontroller than an FPGA here (yes, I know you _can_ make a > > processor in an FPGA, I've done it, but it's not the sensible thing to > > use hree). > > My problem or benefit is, that I have the FPGA boards already. All I > need is to wire up the GP-IB drivers & a connector for the Logic Analyzer. > I don't think you could fit all the logic to implement CS/80 or Amigo protocol in any sensible FPGA. I think it can be done in a modern microcontroller. In any case 'I have a board with the chip on' is IMHO a ridiculous reason for picking a particular clase of device. Given that the microcontroller solution should be only 4 or 5 devices, and that I would press for these to be in 'prototypable packages' (DIL, PLCC, etc), I would think you could hand-wire the hardware in an hour or so. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Feb 15 13:41:15 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2010 19:41:15 +0000 (GMT) Subject: HP-IB, Amigo/cs80 was Re: hp 9153 floppy & disk In-Reply-To: <3FA74B90-4E51-40DF-A0AA-4A1EF2F30C6B@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Feb 14, 10 04:10:55 pm Message-ID: > SD and MMC can use what is more-or-less standard SPI, or a 4-bit- > wide interface that's more difficult to use but much faster. RIght. In what way is the 4-bit interface more difficult to use? Is it just that it takes more I/O pins, or is there something inherently complicated about it? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Feb 15 14:38:58 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2010 20:38:58 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Getting to dislike tantalum caps In-Reply-To: from "Randy Dawson" at Feb 14, 10 06:49:30 pm Message-ID: > > > Further=2C anybody that does radio restoration knows the first step is to "= > De Cap it" > > Pull all electrolytics and replace. I'll let you fight it out with the editor of the Radiophile magazine. He complains bitterly about replacing all the capacitors when they can have nothign whatsoever to do with the probklem. FWWI, I've got plenty of original electrolytics still working in 1950s valve equipment here. They show no signs of failing... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Feb 15 14:14:00 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2010 20:14:00 +0000 (GMT) Subject: HP-IB, Amigo/cs80 was Re: hp 9153 floppy & disk In-Reply-To: <4B786978.4090402@e-bbes.com> from "e.stiebler" at Feb 14, 10 02:22:00 pm Message-ID: > > Dave McGuire wrote: > > SD and MMC can use what is more-or-less standard SPI, or a 4-bit-wide > > interface that's more difficult to use but much faster. > > But as we are replacing disks which were on HP-IB, the normal few > MBytes/sec you get out of SPI whould be sufficient. > > Or, what was the fastest HP-IB harddrive ? Shpuldn't this be the 'slowest' HPIB hard drive? THe point being that if you are too slow then it's possible some hosts will time out and give errors, but that performance is probably not too important for enthusiasts running old HP machines, and provided it's not rediculously slow, it will be useful. IIRC many of the smaller HPIB drive units used standard ST412-interfaced hard dreives with MFM controllers, and thus the standard data rate for those. The next stup up used ESDI drives, again in the standard way. There were a few larger units that used a HP's own HDA (8" platters?) and electronics, presumably those were faster. But I would think that any modern flash device would be comparable in speed, if not faster. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Feb 15 14:45:33 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2010 20:45:33 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Getting to dislike tantalum caps In-Reply-To: <4B789A49.4090306@philpem.me.uk> from "Philip Pemberton" at Feb 15, 10 00:50:17 am Message-ID: > > Chuck Guzis wrote: > > Oh, heck--bad Chinese capacitors are showing up in new gear too. I > > just picked up a couple of HP LCD monitors (circa 2007-2008). Both > > had bulgy filter caps in the power supply. Replaced with new ones > > (Nichicons), the monitors work fine. > > I've had that with my ca.2007 Viewsonic VX922. It was great "fun" trying > to claim on the Viewsonic "guarantee." Quoted because said guarantee I learnt many years ago that it was often quicker and cheaper to fix the problem myself than to do battle with the manufacturers under a 'guarantee'. > isn't worth the paper it's printed on -- the paper slip included with > the monitor states that parts and labour are covered, and return > shipping. Apparently there's been a "retroactive change in policy" since > then and that "no longer applies" -- now customers are expected to pay Err, is that legal? You bought the monitor based on the quoted terms of the guarantee (or at least you can claim you did :-)). What right do the manufactueres have to change those terms after sale? > shipping both ways (to the Netherlands), and the warranty is now two > years instead of three. From what I was told, the warranty starts from > the date of manufacture, not the date of sale (which I'm pretty sure is > illegal under UK law). I am darn sure that's illegal... > > NEC (aka NEC-Mitsubishi) are scarcely any better. The anti-glare coating > started peeling off my old CRT monitor just shy of the guarantee ending. > Called them and got the runaround: > "Well you must have cleaned it with a chemical solvent." > "Only Water and a microfibre cloth, as it says in the instruction book." > "Water is a chemical solvent." That last statement is technically correct, of course, but I can't see how they cancomplain about you cleaning it with water if that's what hey suggest in the manual. > > I ended up being passed back and forth between two different CSRs, then > finally to a "customer services supervisor" who stated quite plainly > that "any failure of the anti-glare coating would be considered customer > misuse and void the guarantee entirely." I am not sure that sort of statement is legal either in the UK... > "So what if, say, the power supply fails?" > "Well, you'd have to pay for that because the warranty is voided by the > CRT damage." They would try that sort of trick with me just once. > > It'll be a cold day in hell before NEC or Viewsonic see any more of my I have some very old NEC monitors here, and have been happy with them. Of course they're _long_ out of guarantee (and I certainly voided the guarantee on the colour one when I converted it from RGB input to RGBI input to use with my newly-obtained CGA card -- yes, it is that old). This doesn't mean I am going to buy any new monitors from them, though... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Feb 15 14:47:29 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2010 20:47:29 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Getting to dislike tantalum caps In-Reply-To: from "William Donzelli" at Feb 14, 10 07:55:33 pm Message-ID: > > > It's been happening since the turn of the century, if not a bit earlier. > > Which century? > > Crap parts have been around forever. I doubt very much if there were any tantalum capacitors in 1900 :-) Or for that matter 'dry' aluminium electrolytic capacitors. I remeber the 'wet' electrolytics in pre-WW2 domestic radios, when did they appear? 1920s? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Feb 15 15:05:47 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2010 21:05:47 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Nicolet DSO & analog comps / was Re: Getting to dislike In-Reply-To: <201002150104.19766.pat@computer-refuge.org> from "Patrick Finnegan" at Feb 15, 10 01:04:19 am Message-ID: > Flickr, or any of the other free photo hosting sites? > > Rumor has it that even Tony Duell uses flickr... No need for it to be a romour, I can confirm that I do use Flicr (tony_duell). Many of my pictures are relevant to this list (boards out of old HP mahcines and the like). -tony From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Feb 15 15:23:44 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2010 16:23:44 -0500 Subject: HP-IB, Amigo/cs80 was Re: hp 9153 floppy & disk In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Feb 15, 2010, at 2:32 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >>> My (serious) approach too. One chip + buffers (to HPIB) + the flash >>> memory device. And since you really need that chip to be a >>> processor (you >>> try doing the CS/80 protocol in random logic ;-)),, it makes more >>> sense >>> to use a microcontroller than an FPGA here (yes, I know you _can_ >>> make a >>> processor in an FPGA, I've done it, but it's not the sensible >>> thing to >>> use hree). >> >> My problem or benefit is, that I have the FPGA boards already. All I >> need is to wire up the GP-IB drivers & a connector for the Logic >> Analyzer. >> > I don't think you could fit all the logic to implement CS/80 or Amigo > protocol in any sensible FPGA. I think it can be done in a modern > microcontroller. > > In any case 'I have a board with the chip on' is IMHO a ridiculous > reason > for picking a particular clase of device. Development hardware tends to be very expensive, and familiarity is important. Taking an ultra-purist attitude, I'd agree with your assertion, but practical matters do come into play sometimes. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Feb 15 15:24:37 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2010 16:24:37 -0500 Subject: HP-IB, Amigo/cs80 was Re: hp 9153 floppy & disk In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Feb 15, 2010, at 2:41 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> SD and MMC can use what is more-or-less standard SPI, or a 4-bit- >> wide interface that's more difficult to use but much faster. > > RIght. > > In what way is the 4-bit interface more difficult to use? Is it > just that > it takes more I/O pins, or is there something inherently complicated > about it? Not terribly, but SPI is dead simple, even if you have to bit-bang it. It doesn't take much to be more complex than SPI. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From onymouse at garlic.com Mon Feb 15 15:26:02 2010 From: onymouse at garlic.com (jd) Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2010 13:26:02 -0800 Subject: What's the point? [was RE: Manual scanning: TIFF-to-PDF software with greyscale support?] In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B79BBEA.4050107@garlic.com> Shoppa, Tim ????????: > > Knuth's Metafont book closely brought together for me, for the first time, computers > and typography, and they've been closely linked for me ever since. I could've sword > that I read that a point = 1/72 inch in there but despite some desparate scouring > he uses "point" as base unit with absolutely no attempt to map it into inches. > The 1967 World Book Encyclopedia defines one point as 1/72 of an inch. It seems to be the most common measure used by printers. It seems that 1/144 of an inch is the smallest unit of measure used in the printing trade. There is a name given to that measure -- 1/144 of an inch -- which I do not recall at the moment. Related is the pica, which is another printer's measure. These are all fractions of whichever standard inch is traditionally used by printers, which has not changed in the trade despite sporadic legal redefinitions. There should be something more under the subjects of printing and typesetting if anyone wants to look in a decent public or academic library which doesn't throw out it's books. I suppose a google search for "printing AND typesetting AND pica" might return some useful results as well. Just in case that helps. (I used to have a see-through printer's rule which was laid out in points, pica, et cetera. It was quite useful for for laying out pages. This was long before computers started to be used for layouts.) == jd Captain Penny's Law: You can fool all of the people some of the time, and some of the people all of the time, but you Can't Fool Mom. -- From pete at dunnington.plus.com Mon Feb 15 15:19:32 2010 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2010 21:19:32 +0000 Subject: What's the point? [was RE: Manual scanning: TIFF-to-PDF software with greyscale support?] In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B79BA64.2090208@dunnington.plus.com> On 15/02/2010 19:41, Shoppa, Tim wrote: > Rich wrote: >> Technically, 100/7227 inch, which is to say, there are 72.27 points per inch >> in typography prior to the creation of the Macintosh. (I don't believe that >> Postscript originally used a 1/72 measure, and TeX certainly didn't, so I can't >> just say "non-computerized typography".) > > I'm pretty sure when I learned typography the numbers I was taught was that Cicero > was 6 lines to the inch, and that it was a 12 point font. Maybe neither of those numbers > are actually correct. That was all before I had used computers although I think it's > possible that Postscript was a glimmer in someone's eye by that point. Having come from the reprographics and printing industry in the days of early phototypesetting and long before DTP, I can back up Rich's assertion. A point is not exactly 1/72"; there are indeed 72.27 points to the inch in conventional typography. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Feb 15 15:33:04 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2010 21:33:04 +0000 (GMT) Subject: HP-IB, Amigo/cs80 was Re: hp 9153 floppy & disk In-Reply-To: from "Dave McGuire" at Feb 15, 10 04:23:44 pm Message-ID: > > In any case 'I have a board with the chip on' is IMHO a ridiculous > > reason > > for picking a particular clase of device. > > Development hardware tends to be very expensive, and familiarity > is important. Taking an ultra-purist attitude, I'd agree with your > assertion, but practical matters do come into play sometimes. And yet only the other day people were telling me how cheap it was to get the development setup for CPLDs, FPGAs, microcontrollers, etc. You can't have it both ways :-) More seriously, the setup for microcontrollers should be pretty simple. Most of the modern ones seem to have an in-system-programming interface, normally similar to SPI. That can be bit-banged over the lines of a parallel port. The software is free if you have somethign to run it on (and I suspect any machien capable of running FPGA development software can run microocntroller development software too), or in the case of microcontrollers yoy can write your own. As regards the actual hardware. as I said, you can hand-wire the microcontroller, clock crystal, HPIB buffers, etc on a bit of square-pad board in an hour or so. -tony From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Feb 15 15:38:12 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2010 16:38:12 -0500 Subject: HP-IB, Amigo/cs80 was Re: hp 9153 floppy & disk In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6AEA35F6-EA40-45E0-A0A3-F2CA5E584517@neurotica.com> On Feb 15, 2010, at 4:33 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >>> In any case 'I have a board with the chip on' is IMHO a ridiculous >>> reason >>> for picking a particular clase of device. >> >> Development hardware tends to be very expensive, and familiarity >> is important. Taking an ultra-purist attitude, I'd agree with your >> assertion, but practical matters do come into play sometimes. > > And yet only the other day people were telling me how cheap it was > to get > the development setup for CPLDs, FPGAs, microcontrollers, etc. You > can't > have it both ways :-) Some of it *is* very cheap. And some of it is very expensive. The entry-level stuff is very cheap. > More seriously, the setup for microcontrollers should be pretty > simple. > Most of the modern ones seem to have an in-system-programming > interface, > normally similar to SPI. That can be bit-banged over the lines of a > parallel port. Hmm. No machines with parallel ports here, except for classic ones. I suppose I could use a 5150.. > The software is free if you have somethign to run it on > (and I suspect any machien capable of running FPGA development > software > can run microocntroller development software too), or in the case of > microcontrollers yoy can write your own. Preachin' to the choir here.. > As regards the actual hardware. as I said, you can hand-wire the > microcontroller, clock crystal, HPIB buffers, etc on a bit of > square-pad > board in an hour or so. Very true. It seems that many people think development boards are "ready made microcontroller boards". I can't tell you how many development boards I've seen mounted in permanent, application- specific chassis. That kind of idiocy makes me ill. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From emu at e-bbes.com Mon Feb 15 15:57:04 2010 From: emu at e-bbes.com (e.stiebler) Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2010 14:57:04 -0700 Subject: HP-IB, Amigo/cs80 was Re: hp 9153 floppy & disk In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B79C330.4050006@e-bbes.com> Tony Duell wrote: > I don't think you could fit all the logic to implement CS/80 or Amigo > protocol in any sensible FPGA. I think it can be done in a modern > microcontroller. I can fit it in, for development. I made some FPGA board for myself, simply because I think they are more flexible. So, I just have to wire up the 7516x drivers, and can start debugging. Yes, I intend to put a sfot cpu in it, so I can use standard toolchains for the software > In any case 'I have a board with the chip on' is IMHO a ridiculous reason > for picking a particular clase of device. Given that the microcontroller > solution should be only 4 or 5 devices, and that I would press for these > to be in 'prototypable packages' (DIL, PLCC, etc), I would think you > could hand-wire the hardware in an hour or so. As I said before, I have them here, because I made them for this purpose. And I don't have a problem believing that you can wrap up a whole cpu board faster than I do ;-) Cheers From emu at e-bbes.com Mon Feb 15 15:58:50 2010 From: emu at e-bbes.com (e.stiebler) Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2010 14:58:50 -0700 Subject: HP-IB, Amigo/cs80 was Re: hp 9153 floppy & disk In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B79C39A.3010807@e-bbes.com> Dave McGuire wrote: > Development hardware tends to be very expensive, and familiarity is > important. Taking an ultra-purist attitude, I'd agree with your > assertion, but practical matters do come into play sometimes. Thanks, that's exactly my point. I can use the same tools I have to use for my job, and the same boards. It use probably more expensive at the start, but it pays of in the long run. From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Feb 15 16:08:40 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2010 17:08:40 -0500 Subject: VAX graphics In-Reply-To: <201002151907.o1FJ7S4c026468@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> References: <201002151907.o1FJ7S4c026468@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: Of course, maybe the graphics hardware is not DEC at all. -- Will From tpeters at mixcom.com Mon Feb 15 16:17:26 2010 From: tpeters at mixcom.com (Tom Peters) Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2010 16:17:26 -0600 Subject: OT Pioneer Video disc equipment Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20100215161556.0c50bdc0@localhost> A friend is selling her laser disc stuff as she's moving out of state soon. Info is below; please pass this along to others and contact Carol directly if you are interested. LASER DISC PLAYER AND DISC COLLECTION FOR SALE I have a Pioneer Compact Disc/Laservision Player, CLD-909 w/Digital Sound which plays compact disc (cd) and both 8" and 12" laser discs. I have about 50 laser discs - Disney (Snow White, Bambi, Aladdin, Sleeping Beauty), allot of Monty Python series & movies, classics like Cassablanca, African Queen, The Marx Brothers, Terminator 2, ET, Unforgiven, Prizi's Honor, Battle of the Bulge, TWO Looney Tunes anthologies/sets, Airplane, Jewel of the Nile, Back to the Future, Goonies, Labrynth, Naked Gun 2 1/2, A Fish Called Wanda, Last of the Mohicans, Cocoon, Untouchables, Moonraker, Wayne's World, Neighbors, Hunt for the Red October, The Pink Panther; Planes, Trains & Automobiles; Return of the Jedi, ... I would like $250 cash for the entire collection & the player. Everything is in good order, has always been stored properly, so that's a great price/value. I am packing for a move so I need to sell this by Feb. 21st/Feb. 22nd. Thank you! Carol A. Roen carol.roen at att.net ----- 177. [Commentary] "Television is a medium because it is neither rare nor well done." --Fred Friendly, former head of CBS News --... ...-- -.. . -. ----. --.- --.- -... tpeters at nospam.mixcom.com (remove "nospam") N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) WEB: http://www.mixcom.com/tpeters 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W, Elevation 815', Grid Square EN53wc WAN/LAN/Telcom Analyst, Tech Writer, MCP, CCNA, Registered Linux User 385531 From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Feb 15 16:19:50 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2010 17:19:50 -0500 Subject: OT Pioneer Video disc equipment In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20100215161556.0c50bdc0@localhost> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20100215161556.0c50bdc0@localhost> Message-ID: On Mon, Feb 15, 2010 at 5:17 PM, Tom Peters wrote: > A friend is selling her laser disc stuff as she's moving out of state soon. > Info is below; please pass this along to others and contact Carol directly > if you are interested. Could you at least say out of which state? -ethan From geneb at deltasoft.com Mon Feb 15 16:33:50 2010 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2010 14:33:50 -0800 (PST) Subject: HP-IB, Amigo/cs80 was Re: hp 9153 floppy & disk In-Reply-To: <6AEA35F6-EA40-45E0-A0A3-F2CA5E584517@neurotica.com> References: <6AEA35F6-EA40-45E0-A0A3-F2CA5E584517@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 15 Feb 2010, Dave McGuire wrote: > Very true. It seems that many people think development boards are "ready > made microcontroller boards". I can't tell you how many development boards > I've seen mounted in permanent, application-specific chassis. That kind of > idiocy makes me ill. > Check out http://www.arduino.cc g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From tpeters at mixcom.com Mon Feb 15 16:35:39 2010 From: tpeters at mixcom.com (Tom Peters) Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2010 16:35:39 -0600 Subject: OT Pioneer Video disc equipment In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.2.20100215161556.0c50bdc0@localhost> <5.1.0.14.2.20100215161556.0c50bdc0@localhost> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20100215163342.0c73fc88@localhost> At 05:19 PM 2/15/2010 -0500, you wrote: >On Mon, Feb 15, 2010 at 5:17 PM, Tom Peters wrote: > > A friend is selling her laser disc stuff as she's moving out of state soon. > > Info is below; please pass this along to others and contact Carol directly > > if you are interested. > >Could you at least say out of which state? > >-ethan I do apologize. The posting was originally to a much smaller audience who could safely assume Southeastern Wisconsin. When owner asked me to post it, I should have edited it more carefully. This equipment is in the Milwaukee metro area. ----- 324. [Philosophy] If you see a man approaching you with the obvious intent of doing you good, you should run for your life. --"Thoreau's Law" --... ...-- -.. . -. ----. --.- --.- -... tpeters at nospam.mixcom.com (remove "nospam") N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) WEB: http://www.mixcom.com/tpeters 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W, Elevation 815', Grid Square EN53wc WAN/LAN/Telcom Analyst, Tech Writer, MCP, CCNA, Registered Linux User 385531 From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Feb 15 16:37:17 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2010 17:37:17 -0500 Subject: HP-IB, Amigo/cs80 was Re: hp 9153 floppy & disk In-Reply-To: References: <6AEA35F6-EA40-45E0-A0A3-F2CA5E584517@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <8E33FE62-2579-43C9-8CDC-45607E803224@neurotica.com> On Feb 15, 2010, at 5:33 PM, Gene Buckle wrote: >> Very true. It seems that many people think development boards are >> "ready made microcontroller boards". I can't tell you how many >> development boards I've seen mounted in permanent, application- >> specific chassis. That kind of idiocy makes me ill. >> > Check out http://www.arduino.cc I'm familiar with Arduinos. What about them? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From hachti at hachti.de Mon Feb 15 17:16:12 2010 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 00:16:12 +0100 Subject: Docs found: Some docs scanned In-Reply-To: <1D7BF2B1-FD67-48DD-A057-42E5852CAC96@microspot.co.uk> References: <1D7BF2B1-FD67-48DD-A057-42E5852CAC96@microspot.co.uk> Message-ID: <4B79D5BC.8050908@hachti.de> > When it eventually appears on BitSavers it will be interesting to compare with the half inch > (TM4) version I have. Could you please tell me (or the list) when it goes up. It IS already up! See my other posting and inspect pdp8.hachti.de/newscan/box1 ! Best wishes, Philipp P.S.: If it's desired I could scan a second second part. In probably slightly better condition/completeness.... -- http://www.hachti.de From geneb at deltasoft.com Mon Feb 15 18:35:18 2010 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2010 16:35:18 -0800 (PST) Subject: HP-IB, Amigo/cs80 was Re: hp 9153 floppy & disk In-Reply-To: <8E33FE62-2579-43C9-8CDC-45607E803224@neurotica.com> References: <6AEA35F6-EA40-45E0-A0A3-F2CA5E584517@neurotica.com> <8E33FE62-2579-43C9-8CDC-45607E803224@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 15 Feb 2010, Dave McGuire wrote: > On Feb 15, 2010, at 5:33 PM, Gene Buckle wrote: >>> Very true. It seems that many people think development boards are "ready >>> made microcontroller boards". I can't tell you how many development >>> boards I've seen mounted in permanent, application-specific chassis. That >>> kind of idiocy makes me ill. >>> >> Check out http://www.arduino.cc > > I'm familiar with Arduinos. What about them? > They're ready-made boards that aren't in an application specific chassis. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Feb 15 18:44:10 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2010 19:44:10 -0500 Subject: HP-IB, Amigo/cs80 was Re: hp 9153 floppy & disk In-Reply-To: References: <6AEA35F6-EA40-45E0-A0A3-F2CA5E584517@neurotica.com> <8E33FE62-2579-43C9-8CDC-45607E803224@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <29B42CF9-CB3A-4D1F-93AF-08BD51739E5C@neurotica.com> On Feb 15, 2010, at 7:35 PM, Gene Buckle wrote: >>>> Very true. It seems that many people think development boards >>>> are "ready made microcontroller boards". I can't tell you how >>>> many development boards I've seen mounted in permanent, >>>> application-specific chassis. That kind of idiocy makes me ill. >>> Check out http://www.arduino.cc >> >> I'm familiar with Arduinos. What about them? >> > They're ready-made boards that aren't in an application specific > chassis. :) I have no issue with those. They're more "general-purpose microcontroller boards". I'm complaining about people using *development* boards for stuff like that. Development boards typically have a lot more onboard peripherals and such. Stuff like the Olimex LPC development boards, for example. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cclist at sydex.com Mon Feb 15 19:30:43 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2010 17:30:43 -0800 Subject: HP-IB, Amigo/cs80 was Re: hp 9153 floppy & disk In-Reply-To: <29B42CF9-CB3A-4D1F-93AF-08BD51739E5C@neurotica.com> References: , , <29B42CF9-CB3A-4D1F-93AF-08BD51739E5C@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4B7984C3.248.CCF82B@cclist.sydex.com> With reference to Arudinos, someone wrote: > They're ready-made boards that aren't in an application specific > chassis. : I never could see the point to those. It's much easier just build up your device using the bare chip. If one of the big AVRs, such as one of the XMegas, it might make some sense in helping to deal with handling an SMT package, sort of the way the ARM stamps do. --Chuck From n0body.h0me at inbox.com Mon Feb 15 19:39:55 2010 From: n0body.h0me at inbox.com (N0body H0me) Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2010 17:39:55 -0800 Subject: Apple II Books for Postage + 10% In-Reply-To: <4B79C39A.3010807@e-bbes.com> References: Message-ID: Hey Gang: I have some Apple II related books I'm never going to use. The first person to offer postage plus 10% gets 'em. The only stipulation is this: You have to take the whole box. Here's what's inside: By Various publishers: Applesoft Isn't Hard by Doug Carlston Beneath_Apple DOS by by Worth & Lechner AppleSoft BASIC Toolbox by Wintermeyer A Bit of Applesoft BASIC by Crichfield & Dwyer The Beginners Guide to Apple II Assembly Language by Zimmerman Genuine Apple Books: ProDOS Supplement to the Apple //e Owners Manual Applesoft BASIC Programmers Reference Manual Vol 1 & 2 (//e only) AppleSoft Tutorial (for //e only) Apple II Super Serial Card Install & Operating Manual AppleMouse // Users Manual Apple II The DOS Manual If there's no interest, then all of this will probably get recycled, or, whatever. Reply off list please. . . . Jeff ____________________________________________________________ FREE 3D MARINE AQUARIUM SCREENSAVER - Watch dolphins, sharks & orcas on your desktop! Check it out at http://www.inbox.com/marineaquarium From legalize at xmission.com Mon Feb 15 19:44:24 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2010 18:44:24 -0700 Subject: VAX graphics In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 15 Feb 2010 14:40:10 -0500. <301A0450-6DC9-4465-859F-5E957296BBDD@neurotica.com> Message-ID: In article <301A0450-6DC9-4465-859F-5E957296BBDD at neurotica.com>, Dave McGuire writes: > The thing that makes me wonder is that I don't see the rest of the > VT100. If you watch carefully, the green screen of the terminal is on top of the color monitor showing the paint output. The paint program's menus are displayed on the text screen of the terminal. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From brain at jbrain.com Mon Feb 15 19:44:25 2010 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2010 19:44:25 -0600 Subject: HP-IB, Amigo/cs80 was Re: hp 9153 floppy & disk In-Reply-To: <4B7984C3.248.CCF82B@cclist.sydex.com> References: , , <29B42CF9-CB3A-4D1F-93AF-08BD51739E5C@neurotica.com> <4B7984C3.248.CCF82B@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4B79F879.4020005@jbrain.com> On 2/15/2010 7:30 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > With reference to Arudinos, someone wrote: > > >> They're ready-made boards that aren't in an application specific >> chassis. : >> > I never could see the point to those. It's much easier just build up > your device using the bare chip. If one of the big AVRs, such as one > of the XMegas, it might make some sense in helping to deal with > handling an SMT package, sort of the way the ARM stamps do. > > --Chuck > > I'm glad I'm not the only one who notes that. On the other hand, this comes from a guy who sells little interfaces that allow one to use SD cards on a 20+ year old machine. My theory is that people are averse to solder nowadays, and these boards mitigate the need to care about the construction aspect. Jim -- Jim Brain, Brain Innovations (X) brain at jbrain.com Dabbling in WWW, Embedded Systems, Old CBM computers, and Good Times! Home: http://www.jbrain.com From legalize at xmission.com Mon Feb 15 19:46:18 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2010 18:46:18 -0700 Subject: VAX graphics In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 15 Feb 2010 17:08:40 -0500. Message-ID: In article , William Donzelli writes: > Of course, maybe the graphics hardware is not DEC at all. Its my understanding that there was a rich 3rd party hardware market for frame buffers and other graphics hardware that plugged into DEC equipment. The early E&S equipment was essentially a graphics peripheral for a minicomputer. By 1986 they were probably working on the Shadowfax graphics for the VAXstatsion 8000, though. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From joachim.thiemann at gmail.com Mon Feb 15 19:47:31 2010 From: joachim.thiemann at gmail.com (Joachim Thiemann) Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2010 20:47:31 -0500 Subject: HP-IB, Amigo/cs80 was Re: hp 9153 floppy & disk In-Reply-To: <4B7984C3.248.CCF82B@cclist.sydex.com> References: <29B42CF9-CB3A-4D1F-93AF-08BD51739E5C@neurotica.com> <4B7984C3.248.CCF82B@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4affc5e1002151747v4a867a8cj763b86b0c54ecf44@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, Feb 15, 2010 at 20:30, Chuck Guzis wrote: > With reference to Arudinos, someone wrote: > ... > I never could see the point to those. ?It's much easier just build up > your device using the bare chip. ?If one of the big AVRs, such as one > of the XMegas, it might make some sense in helping to deal with > handling an SMT package, sort of the way the ARM stamps do. It's the development environment: dead simple, "just works", etc. One has to remember these are designed to be used by people with NO electronics experience. And I think that's a good thing. They are the equivalent of our VIC20s, TI99s, ZX81s. Once you get your bearings with the "pseudo-c" you can then start more advanced programming; all without installing IDEs, figuring command lines for avrdude, bootstrapping, etc, etc. -- Joachim Thiemann :: http://www.tsp.ece.mcgill.ca/~jthiem From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Feb 15 19:49:12 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2010 20:49:12 -0500 Subject: VAX graphics In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0A08DF25-5880-4D50-A080-7CC5C62EE8D7@neurotica.com> On Feb 15, 2010, at 8:44 PM, Richard wrote: >> The thing that makes me wonder is that I don't see the rest of the >> VT100. > > If you watch carefully, the green screen of the terminal is on top of > the color monitor showing the paint output. The paint program's menus > are displayed on the text screen of the terminal. I don't believe DEC ever sold a VT100-family terminal with a green- phosphor CRT. I suppose it could be an aftermarket anti-glare screen covering. Speaking of which...does anyone else here find it amusing that a big marketing point of many modern laptops is "glossy screen"? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Feb 15 19:55:38 2010 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2010 17:55:38 -0800 Subject: Docs found: Some docs scanned In-Reply-To: <20100215071755.GB21195@Update.UU.SE> References: <4B783B32.2050203@hachti.de> <20100215071755.GB21195@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <4B79FB1A.4060406@bitsavers.org> On 2/14/10 11:17 PM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > Here is what I would want: > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hlOQuuLYavY > > Al: what hardware have you used to scan old books? > Conventional sheet-feed scanners. My current workhorse is the Panasonic KV-S3065W. The bindings are cut off before scanning, and the paper is recycled. "Rare" as opposed to "Old" books are scanned with an Opticbook 3600, and are retained. I've done very few of the former, and literally thousands of the later. The point of all of this, coming up on it's tenth anniversary, was to rid myself of the storage costs I have incurred due to my collecting addiction while not being able to bring myself to just throwing it all out. From legalize at xmission.com Mon Feb 15 19:59:42 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2010 18:59:42 -0700 Subject: VAX graphics In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 15 Feb 2010 20:49:12 -0500. <0A08DF25-5880-4D50-A080-7CC5C62EE8D7@neurotica.com> Message-ID: In article <0A08DF25-5880-4D50-A080-7CC5C62EE8D7 at neurotica.com>, Dave McGuire writes: > I don't believe DEC ever sold a VT100-family terminal with a green- > phosphor CRT. The VT102 User Guide on vt100.net shows that you could get a green antiglare filter: -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From keithvz at verizon.net Mon Feb 15 20:10:27 2010 From: keithvz at verizon.net (keith) Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2010 21:10:27 -0500 Subject: HP-IB, Amigo/cs80 was Re: hp 9153 floppy & disk In-Reply-To: <4B7984C3.248.CCF82B@cclist.sydex.com> References: , , <29B42CF9-CB3A-4D1F-93AF-08BD51739E5C@neurotica.com> <4B7984C3.248.CCF82B@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4B79FE93.7040206@verizon.net> Chuck Guzis wrote: > With reference to Arudinos, someone wrote: > >> They're ready-made boards that aren't in an application specific >> chassis. : > > I never could see the point to those. It's much easier just build up > your device using the bare chip. If one of the big AVRs, such as one > of the XMegas, it might make some sense in helping to deal with > handling an SMT package, sort of the way the ARM stamps do. > > --Chuck At least for most hobbyists like myself, those boards (and development boards) are very important because they provide a known good starting point. Like you mentioned, lots of devices are only SMT now, and without some type of board, schmartboard, etc, just make it tough to do anything with. You can't just plop one down on a solderless breadboard. Sure you can get surfboards, but it's just a PITA. There are sometimes specialty power issues to deal with, multiple voltages required, tolerances. Filtering done properly. They usually provide a convenient programming interface. They usually provide the programming cables, software, power supplies. Sometimes IDENTIFYING and SOURCING the appropriate oscillators, crystals, etc etc can be a big PITA. There are so many things to learn about when getting into a new technology (new to the user), like microcontrollers and FPGAs, that it really helps whenever the "basic requirements" are met. In regards to some of the comments about development tools and equipment, I think that things have become quite affordable! You can buy microcontroller kits pretty cheap, and Xilinx's webpack ISE is pretty darn powerful and free. A lot of these kits include in-circuit emulators, source level debuggers, etc etc. Keith From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Feb 15 20:10:41 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2010 21:10:41 -0500 Subject: VAX graphics In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Feb 15, 2010, at 8:59 PM, Richard wrote: >> I don't believe DEC ever sold a VT100-family terminal with a >> green- >> phosphor CRT. > > The VT102 User Guide on vt100.net shows that you could get a green > antiglare filter: Ahh, must've been that! It can't have been very popular; hundreds of VT100-family terminals have passed through my hands and I've never seen one in the flesh. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Feb 15 20:24:06 2010 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2010 18:24:06 -0800 Subject: VAX graphics In-Reply-To: <301A0450-6DC9-4465-859F-5E957296BBDD@neurotica.com> References: <301A0450-6DC9-4465-859F-5E957296BBDD@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4B7A01C6.2000404@bitsavers.org> On 2/15/10 11:40 AM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On Feb 15, 2010, at 1:26 PM, Richard wrote: >>> I just stumbled upon this video of a computer tablet: >>> >>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aPC_w9yYe5M >>> >>> They show a VAX-11/780 with RP06 and TU70 (I think) and claim its doing >>> the graphics. But I'm curious, what terminal and software is used? Does >>> anyone have a clue? >> >> Since its 1986, the software is most likely custom. >> Running under Unix. You see a user profile with / pathname when he brings up the menu. I wish they wouldn't have chopped off the credits. The artist is named "Paul" and he says he worked in Hollywood. Raster updates are quite slow, it could be a graphics terminal running over a serial line (Ramtek, Chromerics, Raster Tech, Genesco, AED all possibilities). Guessing 640 x 480 x 8 resolution. Their use of overlays would have been easy with planar frame buffers. From keithvz at verizon.net Mon Feb 15 20:36:17 2010 From: keithvz at verizon.net (keith) Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2010 21:36:17 -0500 Subject: HP-IB, Amigo/cs80 was Re: hp 9153 floppy & disk In-Reply-To: <4affc5e1002151747v4a867a8cj763b86b0c54ecf44@mail.gmail.com> References: <29B42CF9-CB3A-4D1F-93AF-08BD51739E5C@neurotica.com> <4B7984C3.248.CCF82B@cclist.sydex.com> <4affc5e1002151747v4a867a8cj763b86b0c54ecf44@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B7A04A1.30807@verizon.net> Joachim Thiemann wrote: > On Mon, Feb 15, 2010 at 20:30, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> With reference to Arudinos, someone wrote: >> ... >> I never could see the point to those. It's much easier just build up >> your device using the bare chip. If one of the big AVRs, such as one >> of the XMegas, it might make some sense in helping to deal with >> handling an SMT package, sort of the way the ARM stamps do. > > It's the development environment: dead simple, "just works", etc. One > has to remember these are designed to be used by people with NO > electronics experience. And I think that's a good thing. Absolutely! And I think introducing more people and expanding the community is a great thing for everyone. Make this stuff more accessible is a great goal. Makes things cheaper, more available, better supported. More documentation, more web sites, more blogs. It's all good. I think there is also a certain group of people (present company excluded, of course) that don't want to allow the "newbies" in their precious "club." They feel that by removing the barriers to entry (maybe learning to solder, learning assembly language, learning basic electronics) that their self-worth is somehow diluted because the end goal is more easily attainable now w/o requiring these skills. Talk to the old grouchy hams about adding no-code tech ham radio licenses on your local repeater, if you want your ear beat for 1/2 hour. I enjoy sort of the sparkfun-methodology ---- off the shelf breakout boards, sensor modules, easily accessible headers for connecting things, and so on. It allows you to leverage very advanced technologies by providing an easy interface. Maybe that technology is GPS, or cellular, or whatever. For me, while learning this stuff is the real goal, it's nice to pick and choose the challenges, and avoid the roadblocks to progress whenever necessary. Keith From geneb at deltasoft.com Mon Feb 15 20:36:51 2010 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2010 18:36:51 -0800 (PST) Subject: HP-IB, Amigo/cs80 was Re: hp 9153 floppy & disk In-Reply-To: <4B7984C3.248.CCF82B@cclist.sydex.com> References: , , <29B42CF9-CB3A-4D1F-93AF-08BD51739E5C@neurotica.com> <4B7984C3.248.CCF82B@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 15 Feb 2010, Chuck Guzis wrote: > With reference to Arudinos, someone wrote: > >> They're ready-made boards that aren't in an application specific >> chassis. : > > I never could see the point to those. It's much easier just build up > your device using the bare chip. If one of the big AVRs, such as one > of the XMegas, it might make some sense in helping to deal with > handling an SMT package, sort of the way the ARM stamps do. > The whole point of the Arduino is to make it accessable to those that don't have the knowledge to build up their own board. It's a great beginner platform. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From legalize at xmission.com Mon Feb 15 20:55:21 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2010 19:55:21 -0700 Subject: VAX graphics In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 15 Feb 2010 18:24:06 -0800. <4B7A01C6.2000404@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: In article <4B7A01C6.2000404 at bitsavers.org>, Al Kossow writes: > Raster updates are quite slow, it could be a graphics terminal running > over a serial line (Ramtek, Chromerics, Raster Tech, Genesco, AED all > possibilities). Guess ing 640 x 480 x 8 resolution. [... Yes, even in 1986 I would expect a memory mapped frame buffer to a VAX to get updated faster than that. So that does point to a serial line terminal. In the mid 80s, there were many people making these, but by the end of the 80s serial terminals were almost dead. X terminals revived the terminal concept for a while, but as PCs got cheaper and cheaper it just made sense to give everybody their own dumb frame buffer capable machine/workstation. In the 90s the 3D hardware pipelines started becoming more affordable and of course the GPU explosion in the "oughts" has just made silly amounts of processing power available for very little money. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From cclist at sydex.com Mon Feb 15 20:56:27 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2010 18:56:27 -0800 Subject: HP-IB, Amigo/cs80 was Re: hp 9153 floppy & disk In-Reply-To: <4B7A04A1.30807@verizon.net> References: , <4affc5e1002151747v4a867a8cj763b86b0c54ecf44@mail.gmail.com>, <4B7A04A1.30807@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4B7998DB.27241.11B7696@cclist.sydex.com> On 15 Feb 2010 at 21:36, keith wrote: > I think there is also a certain group of people (present company > excluded, of course) that don't want to allow the "newbies" in their > precious "club." They feel that by removing the barriers to entry > (maybe learning to solder, learning assembly language, learning basic > electronics) that their self-worth is somehow diluted because the end > goal is more easily attainable now w/o requiring these skills. That's fine--I was a big supporter when the BASIC Stamp came out. But talking about an Arudino in the same breath as doing an HPIB adapter seems, well, a bit strange in that a considerable amount of research is necessary simply to understand HPIB. Far more than it takes to hook up a 20 pin DIP, it seems to me. But maybe not. Don't get me wrong--I think some of the single-board setups are pretty cool. Just never understood the need for something as simple as an Arudino. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Mon Feb 15 20:59:18 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2010 18:59:18 -0800 Subject: VAX graphics In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: <4B799986.10729.11E1156@cclist.sydex.com> On 15 Feb 2010 at 21:10, Dave McGuire wrote: > Ahh, must've been that! It can't have been very popular; hundreds > of VT100-family terminals have passed through my hands and I've never > seen one in the flesh. I used to have a green plastic antiglare overlay that also limited off-axis viewing for privacy. It may have been made by Polaroid. I wish I would have kept it. --Chuck From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Feb 15 21:10:36 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2010 22:10:36 -0500 Subject: VAX graphics In-Reply-To: References: <0A08DF25-5880-4D50-A080-7CC5C62EE8D7@neurotica.com> Message-ID: > The VT102 User Guide on vt100.net shows that you could get a green > antiglare filter: It is also reasonable to think that DEC did a run of VT100oids with green tubes. -- Will From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Feb 15 21:12:00 2010 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2010 19:12:00 -0800 Subject: HP-IB, Amigo/cs80 was Re: hp 9153 floppy & disk In-Reply-To: <4B7998DB.27241.11B7696@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4affc5e1002151747v4a867a8cj763b86b0c54ecf44@mail.gmail.com>, <4B7A04A1.30807@verizon.net> <4B7998DB.27241.11B7696@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4B7A0D00.70306@bitsavers.org> On 2/15/10 6:56 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > But talking about an Arudino in the same breath as doing an HPIB > adapter seems, well, a bit strange in that a considerable amount of > research is necessary simply to understand HPIB. Far more than it > takes to hook up a 20 pin DIP, it seems to me. > > But maybe not. > The problems are in the Amigo and CS80 protocol timing details. http://www.hp9845.net/9845/projects/hpdrive/ figured it out, but thanks to it being closed-source you all get to figure it all out again At least you have the 'describe' parameters available now. Frankly, at the level of discussion I'm seeing, I doubt anything will come of this here. From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Feb 15 21:15:32 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2010 22:15:32 -0500 Subject: VAX graphics In-Reply-To: References: <0A08DF25-5880-4D50-A080-7CC5C62EE8D7@neurotica.com> Message-ID: > It is also reasonable to think that DEC did a run of VT100oids with green tubes. Or a repair job, come to think about it. I pulled a half pallet of new National 12" tubes out of New Jersey a few months ago - a mix of white, amber, and green - destined for replacements in terminals. The electronics does not care about the phosphor color. And maybe the repair depot techs did not care either. -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Feb 15 21:20:22 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2010 22:20:22 -0500 Subject: Separating a Vax 11/780 from it's peripheral cabinet... In-Reply-To: References: <176745.39334.qm@web52608.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > You hit the size on the head, 1/4-20. ?There are three ribbon cables and one small Molex connector. ?I recommend labeling the ribbon cables as you remove them (if they aren't already), or you're going to be tracing through a rat's maze to get them right again. ?-- Ian Thanks for the info - the surgery was a success. -- Will From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Feb 15 21:36:59 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2010 22:36:59 -0500 Subject: HP-IB, Amigo/cs80 was Re: hp 9153 floppy & disk In-Reply-To: <4B7A04A1.30807@verizon.net> References: <29B42CF9-CB3A-4D1F-93AF-08BD51739E5C@neurotica.com> <4B7984C3.248.CCF82B@cclist.sydex.com> <4affc5e1002151747v4a867a8cj763b86b0c54ecf44@mail.gmail.com> <4B7A04A1.30807@verizon.net> Message-ID: On Feb 15, 2010, at 9:36 PM, keith wrote: > Absolutely! And I think introducing more people and expanding the > community is a great thing for everyone. Make this stuff more > accessible is a great goal. Makes things cheaper, more available, > better supported. More documentation, more web sites, more blogs. > It's all good. > > I think there is also a certain group of people (present company > excluded, of course) that don't want to allow the "newbies" in > their precious "club." They feel that by removing the barriers to > entry (maybe learning to solder, learning assembly language, > learning basic electronics) that their self-worth is somehow > diluted because the end goal is more easily attainable now w/o > requiring these skills. Well, the skills are still necessary to do anything serious, so there's no *real* dilution involved. Lower barriers to entry is a good thing here. > Talk to the old grouchy hams about adding no-code tech ham radio > licenses on your local repeater, if you want your ear beat for 1/2 > hour. ...but not here. No-code Tech licenses have made 2m sound like the CB of the 1970s. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Feb 15 21:39:02 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2010 22:39:02 -0500 Subject: VAX graphics In-Reply-To: References: <0A08DF25-5880-4D50-A080-7CC5C62EE8D7@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <1DED8B74-9964-4BAD-82CD-7C992927A4C1@neurotica.com> On Feb 15, 2010, at 10:10 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >> The VT102 User Guide on vt100.net shows that you could get a green >> antiglare filter: > > It is also reasonable to think that DEC did a run of VT100oids with > green tubes. I think some of us would've run across at least one if that were the case. I certainly haven't. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From legalize at xmission.com Mon Feb 15 21:39:18 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2010 20:39:18 -0700 Subject: VAX graphics In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 15 Feb 2010 22:10:36 -0500. Message-ID: In article , William Donzelli writes: > > The VT102 User Guide on vt100.net shows that you could get a green > > antiglare filter: > > It is also reasonable to think that DEC did a run of VT100oids with green tub es. I think he's right though. In documentation I've read through, there were green and amber models offered for the successive generations but I don't recall having read that the VT100 or earlier models had anything other than the white phosphor. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Feb 15 21:40:24 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2010 22:40:24 -0500 Subject: HP-IB, Amigo/cs80 was Re: hp 9153 floppy & disk In-Reply-To: <4B7998DB.27241.11B7696@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4affc5e1002151747v4a867a8cj763b86b0c54ecf44@mail.gmail.com>, <4B7A04A1.30807@verizon.net> <4B7998DB.27241.11B7696@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4C9420A2-4B0F-46F7-ACC9-E4CC1EE2EBA4@neurotica.com> On Feb 15, 2010, at 9:56 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Don't get me wrong--I think some of the single-board setups are > pretty cool. Just never understood the need for something as simple > as an Arudino. It allows people to get their feet wet and see if they can get motivated to learn how to do it "for real". It provides the thrill of accomplishment early-on, which provides motivation to go further. I think it's a very good thing. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From legalize at xmission.com Mon Feb 15 21:40:25 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2010 20:40:25 -0700 Subject: National 12" tubes for repairing terminals (was: VAX graphics) In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 15 Feb 2010 22:15:32 -0500. Message-ID: In article , William Donzelli writes: > Or a repair job, come to think about it. I pulled a half pallet of new > National 12" tubes out of New Jersey a few months ago - a mix of > white, amber, and green - destined for replacements in terminals. The > electronics does not care about the phosphor color. And maybe the > repair depot techs did not care either. What terminals were they intended for? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From ian_primus at yahoo.com Mon Feb 15 21:55:48 2010 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2010 19:55:48 -0800 (PST) Subject: National 12" tubes for repairing terminals (was: VAX graphics) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <463601.80537.qm@web52608.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- On Mon, 2/15/10, Richard wrote: > > Or a repair job, come to think about it. I pulled a > half pallet of new > > National 12" tubes out of New Jersey a few months ago > - a mix of > > white, amber, and green - destined for replacements in > terminals. The > > electronics does not care about the phosphor color. > And maybe the > > repair depot techs did not care either. > > What terminals were they intended for? >From the looks of them, some were replacements for DEC VT220 type terminals (no mounting ears), and the rest were just regular, generic tubes for VT100 (ears) and everything else that uses that type of 12" tube. Heck, I've even replaced terminal tubes with tubes scavenged from 12" television sets. Mono tubes are pretty interchangeable. Phosphor color is dictated by the tube itself. Once, for grins, I swapped a green tube from a banged up IBM 5151 display into a Zenith 12" television. I created the only TV with WordPerfect screen burn. The green. slow persistence phosphor made TV watching rather weird. -Ian From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Feb 15 21:57:20 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2010 22:57:20 -0500 Subject: National 12" tubes for repairing terminals (was: VAX graphics) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > What terminals were they intended for? They are pretty general purpose, I think. I gave them to Ian, so he can chime up. They came from Cyber Resurces, so they were intended for DEC and CDC Vikings. -- Will From geneb at deltasoft.com Mon Feb 15 22:00:25 2010 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2010 20:00:25 -0800 (PST) Subject: Arduino (was -> Re: HP-IB, Amigo/cs80 was Re: hp 9153 floppy & disk In-Reply-To: <4B7A04A1.30807@verizon.net> References: <29B42CF9-CB3A-4D1F-93AF-08BD51739E5C@neurotica.com> <4B7984C3.248.CCF82B@cclist.sydex.com> <4affc5e1002151747v4a867a8cj763b86b0c54ecf44@mail.gmail.com> <4B7A04A1.30807@verizon.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 15 Feb 2010, keith wrote: >> has to remember these are designed to be used by people with NO >> electronics experience. And I think that's a good thing. > > Absolutely! And I think introducing more people and expanding the community > is a great thing for everyone. Make this stuff more accessible is a great > goal. Makes things cheaper, more available, better supported. More > documentation, more web sites, more blogs. It's all good. > It's led to projects like the "printer" that uses ABS plastic: http://www.makerbot.com - its controller is an Arduino board. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From ian_primus at yahoo.com Mon Feb 15 22:04:36 2010 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2010 20:04:36 -0800 (PST) Subject: VAX graphics In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <682752.74418.qm@web52604.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- On Mon, 2/15/10, William Donzelli wrote: > > The VT102 User Guide on > vt100.net shows that you could get a green > > antiglare filter: > > It is also reasonable to think that DEC did a run of > VT100oids with green tubes. > I have a VT100 with a green tube. It came to me like that, and the screen burn is consistent with a lot of use. It's a fairly slow persistence tube, and the bottom edge is burned with a one inch vertical line in the middle, from that bright flash that a VT100 makes at poweroff. It's mostly hidden under the bezel. It could very well have been original, but it could also have been replaced at some time. -Ian From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Feb 15 22:07:38 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2010 23:07:38 -0500 Subject: VAX graphics In-Reply-To: <682752.74418.qm@web52604.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <682752.74418.qm@web52604.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > I have a VT100 with a green tube. It came to me like that, and the screen burn is consistent with a lot of use. It's a fairly slow persistence tube, and the bottom edge is burned with a one inch vertical line in the middle, from that bright flash that a VT100 makes at poweroff. It's mostly hidden under the bezel. > > It could very well have been original, but it could also have been replaced at some time. Did you get that from me? I have a hazy thought of seeing a VT100oid in green, but I did not want to speak up unless certain. -- Will From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Mon Feb 15 22:11:29 2010 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2010 20:11:29 -0800 (PST) Subject: monitor misuse In-Reply-To: <463601.80537.qm@web52608.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <463601.80537.qm@web52608.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 15 Feb 2010, Mr Ian Primus wrote: > Once, for grins, I swapped a green tube from a banged up IBM 5151 > display into a Zenith 12" television. I created the only TV with > WordPerfect screen burn. The green. slow persistence phosphor made TV > watching rather weird. I hooked some random monochrome composite monitor to a video game console. I agree, it is weird. I didn't try piping a TV channel through it though. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From ian_primus at yahoo.com Mon Feb 15 22:14:43 2010 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2010 20:14:43 -0800 (PST) Subject: VAX graphics In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <541114.90737.qm@web52608.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- On Mon, 2/15/10, William Donzelli wrote: > Did you get that from me? I have a hazy thought of seeing a > VT100oid > in green, but I did not want to speak up unless certain. > No, I didn't. I actually scavenged this one from the scrap pile at the school I used to work at like seven years ago. First VT100 I ever owned. It's yellowed, beat up, inscribed with a school property number in large letters on the side, and the "Set Up" key is missing. But I've gotten a lot of use out of it. The tube has burn-in from General Electric, so if it was replaced, it was replaced before it was donated to the school. -Ian From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Feb 15 22:17:21 2010 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2010 21:17:21 -0700 Subject: National 12" tubes for repairing terminals In-Reply-To: <463601.80537.qm@web52608.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <463601.80537.qm@web52608.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4B7A1C51.5000602@jetnet.ab.ca> Mr Ian Primus wrote: > Once, for grins, I swapped a green tube from a banged up IBM 5151 > display into a Zenith 12" television. I created the only TV with > WordPerfect screen burn. The green. slow persistence phosphor made TV > watching rather weird. Just the thing for Twilight Zone... :) > -Ian > From keithvz at verizon.net Mon Feb 15 22:40:22 2010 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith M) Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2010 23:40:22 -0500 Subject: HP-IB, Amigo/cs80 was Re: hp 9153 floppy & disk In-Reply-To: References: <29B42CF9-CB3A-4D1F-93AF-08BD51739E5C@neurotica.com> <4B7984C3.248.CCF82B@cclist.sydex.com> <4affc5e1002151747v4a867a8cj763b86b0c54ecf44@mail.gmail.com> <4B7A04A1.30807@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4B7A21B6.8050000@verizon.net> Dave McGuire wrote: > On Feb 15, 2010, at 9:36 PM, keith wrote: >> Talk to the old grouchy hams about adding no-code tech ham radio >> licenses on your local repeater, if you want your ear beat for 1/2 hour. > > ...but not here. No-code Tech licenses have made 2m sound like the CB > of the 1970s. > > -Dave I guess this must be a regional thing. I haven't heard any problems locally on 2m or 440 over the last few years. While I'm admittedly spotty in how often I pop on and listen, I haven't heard a single episode of CB-like behavior. No cursing, everyone using callsigns, seems ok to me. The US was about five years behind Int'l community in dropping the requirement. Keith From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Feb 15 22:54:14 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2010 23:54:14 -0500 Subject: HP-IB, Amigo/cs80 was Re: hp 9153 floppy & disk In-Reply-To: <4B7A21B6.8050000@verizon.net> References: <29B42CF9-CB3A-4D1F-93AF-08BD51739E5C@neurotica.com> <4B7984C3.248.CCF82B@cclist.sydex.com> <4affc5e1002151747v4a867a8cj763b86b0c54ecf44@mail.gmail.com> <4B7A04A1.30807@verizon.net> <4B7A21B6.8050000@verizon.net> Message-ID: <96558783-41F6-46D3-8A76-1DEF995693C5@neurotica.com> On Feb 15, 2010, at 11:40 PM, Keith M wrote: >>> Talk to the old grouchy hams about adding no-code tech ham radio >>> licenses on your local repeater, if you want your ear beat for >>> 1/2 hour. >> ...but not here. No-code Tech licenses have made 2m sound like >> the CB of the 1970s. > > I guess this must be a regional thing. I haven't heard any > problems locally on 2m or 440 over the last few years. While I'm > admittedly spotty in how often I pop on and listen, I haven't heard > a single episode of CB-like behavior. No cursing, everyone using > callsigns, seems ok to me. I saw a big spike in bad behavior when the requirement was dropped, both in MD and FL. I've not had a radio turned on in about two years, perhaps people are behaving a bit better now, but I don't have high hopes. CW was the one thing keeping ham radio from becoming "CB with a gazillion 'channels' and a huge power limit". > The US was about five years behind Int'l community in dropping the > requirement. I think it was a bad idea for the int'l community too. ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Feb 15 23:22:50 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 00:22:50 -0500 Subject: HP-IB, Amigo/cs80 was Re: hp 9153 floppy & disk In-Reply-To: <4B7A0D00.70306@bitsavers.org> References: <4affc5e1002151747v4a867a8cj763b86b0c54ecf44@mail.gmail.com> <4B7A04A1.30807@verizon.net> <4B7998DB.27241.11B7696@cclist.sydex.com> <4B7A0D00.70306@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On 2/15/10, Al Kossow wrote: > The problems are in the Amigo and CS80 protocol timing details. > > http://www.hp9845.net/9845/projects/hpdrive/ > > figured it out, but thanks to it being closed-source you all get > to figure it all out again Interesting link. I learned much of the details of why it's difficult. > At least you have the 'describe' parameters available now. Indeed. > Frankly, at the level of discussion I'm seeing, I doubt anything > will come of this here. That may well be true, but my own interest is primarily in the CBM implementation of IEEE-488, and that, I think, has a reasonably good chance of going somewhere. I certainly don't mind considering a hardware design that doesn't make it impossible to support Amigo/cs80 emulation, but since I own no HP hardware of the right stripe and lack any experience with it, that angle won't be explored by me. I have no way to test it. There are numerous ways to go about implementing some sort of modern IEEE disk as the discussion has already shown. My own preference is to look into some form of AVR processor with enough I/O lines, and use "real" GPIB buffers, but then I routinely see IEEE chains of 3-5 devices (just from my own collection of PET stuff). I'd also consider some flavor of MCS51 device, especially since I just got back a stack of bare AT89S52 boards that were designed for driving an 8x9 matrix of LEDs for a clock, but could also be the foundation of a disk board with a bit of rework. At 32 I/O lines, there's a lot to work with there, and plenty of horsepower - the real question is if it would need an external SRAM or not (and it might, for a reasonable approximation of the low-level CBM DOS routines). -ethan From legalize at xmission.com Mon Feb 15 23:33:46 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2010 22:33:46 -0700 Subject: National 12" tubes for repairing terminals (was: VAX graphics) In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 15 Feb 2010 19:55:48 -0800. <463601.80537.qm@web52608.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: In article <463601.80537.qm at web52608.mail.re2.yahoo.com>, Mr Ian Primus writes: > Once, for grins, I swapped a green tube from a banged up IBM 5151 > display int o a Zenith 12" television. I created the only TV with > WordPerfect screen burn. The green. slow persistence phosphor made TV > watching rather weird. I would like to see that! -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From pontus at Update.UU.SE Tue Feb 16 01:10:03 2010 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 08:10:03 +0100 Subject: VAX graphics In-Reply-To: References: <4B7A01C6.2000404@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <20100216071003.GA27208@Update.UU.SE> On Mon, Feb 15, 2010 at 07:55:21PM -0700, Richard wrote: > Yes, even in 1986 I would expect a memory mapped frame buffer to a VAX > to get updated faster than that. So that does point to a serial line > terminal. An alternative is that the image is loaded from disk into the frame buffer, they do talk about "load" images from files. /P (And yes, Johnny, I should have recognized it as a TU77 :) From wgungfu at gmail.com Mon Feb 15 16:22:23 2010 From: wgungfu at gmail.com (Martin Goldberg) Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2010 16:22:23 -0600 Subject: OT Pioneer Video disc equipment In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.2.20100215161556.0c50bdc0@localhost> Message-ID: <2c768b1e1002151422t22a436d9h3350841c62db7b32@mail.gmail.com> That reminds me, was going through things of mine back at my father's basement and ran across a still sealed Laserdisc music video sampler that was given out at CES in the mid 80's. Anyone have an interest in this? I have no use for it. Marty On Mon, Feb 15, 2010 at 4:19 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Mon, Feb 15, 2010 at 5:17 PM, Tom Peters wrote: >> A friend is selling her laser disc stuff as she's moving out of state soon. >> Info is below; please pass this along to others and contact Carol directly >> if you are interested. > > Could you at least say out of which state? > > -ethan > From bqt at softjar.se Mon Feb 15 18:57:24 2010 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 01:57:24 +0100 Subject: VAX graphics In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B79ED74.1050609@softjar.se> Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > Hi All. > > I just stumbled upon this video of a computer tablet: > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aPC_w9yYe5M > > They show a VAX-11/780 with RP06 and TU70 (I think) and claim its doing > the graphics. But I'm curious, what terminal and software is used? Does > anyone have a clue? Nice stuff. Interesting to see the speculations of people around here. The tape drive is a TU77 or TU78, which you should know Pontus... ;-) My guess would be a TU77 though. Anyway, no, the graphics is not DEC. And no, it's not a serial connection. If you ever tried doing bitmap graphics over a serial line you should all realize that a high resolution picture like that would take a very long time to download over a serial line, even at 19200. And by 1986 you didn't have any faster serial ports on a Unibus-machine. Also, DEC didn't have any high-resolution hardware for Unibus. The closes was the VS11, VS60 and that kind of stuff. And those don't get close to the type of resolution, number of colors, or speed of this thing. DEC did play with a few tablets for the VAX stations by this time, but hadn't come that far. So, yes, this is a third party thing. The two companies that springs to my mind here are Intergraph, who did CAD systems based on VAXen. They usually based their systems on the VAX-11/750, but I don't think there was any technical reason that an 11/780 shouldn't be possible as well. The other is Evans and Sutherland, who specialized in high performance graphic subsystems. My guess would be that this was some E&S graphic system, but it's hard to tell, since I never actually saw any of their stuff in real life. But I think it was/is a whole bunch of cards on the Unibus, and video cables to a color monitor. And of course input ports for keyboard and tablet. There might have been other players around as well. But I know of no DEC hardware that could produce better than aboout 256x256 on Unibus machines, and only with a very limited palette. And it's definitely not a VT-whatever. The "best" VT-terminal, in terms of graphic is the VT340, which have a fair resolution of about 240x800 (roughly from memory), but at most 16 colors, out of a palette of 4096. But it's also newer than 1986, and don't look like that at all. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From nigel.d.williams at gmail.com Mon Feb 15 23:22:10 2010 From: nigel.d.williams at gmail.com (Nigel Williams) Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 16:22:10 +1100 Subject: DEC RT-11 MU BASIC V2.00R installation guide? Message-ID: <5f2019e51002152122w65c40070n1d1e65526351aac1@mail.gmail.com> Having found the RK05 image for MU BASIC V2: http://www.shiresoft.com/downloads/disk-images/rk05/rt11v4-mubasicv2.rk.gz I made a quick attempt at getting it to install on simh but without success as it throws an error "CONFIGURATION ERROR -- NOT ENOUGH MEMORY" when entering .R MUBAS and answering with 1USER.CNF Does anyone have the V2 Installation Guide? it may have a DEC part number close to or similar to the V1 guide which was: DEC-11-LIBMA-A-D which you can see here: http://www.computer.museum.uq.edu.au/RT-11/DEC-11-LIBMA-A-D%20MU%20BASIC&RT-11%20System%20Installation%20Guide.pdf thanks. www.retroComputingTasmania.com From nigel.d.williams at gmail.com Mon Feb 15 23:32:49 2010 From: nigel.d.williams at gmail.com (Nigel Williams) Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 16:32:49 +1100 Subject: Fwd: [comp.sys.dec] BASIC-Plus-2 Message-ID: <5f2019e51002152132n15d469bcx8d454bb3e896406e@mail.gmail.com> Has anyone managed to get any of the Layered Products installed on RSTS/E V9.X (X >= 6)? Aside from F77 for which there was a declaration of success here: http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/pipermail/simh/2008-March/001719.html I tried with BASIC Plus 2 V2.6 (with RSTS/E 9.6) and can see that the tape appears to be a BACKUP INSTAL.BCK set, but RESTORE is refusing to work with the tape (TPC file). Does anyone happen to have the BP2 installation guide or tips on how the layered products are generally installed on RSTS/E? A related question: Can anyone explain what a field-test versions of RSTS/E means? is it a release candidate (in modern parlance) or a beta? I see RSTS/E V10 but it is annotated with field-test so I assume it was not the final shipping version. thanks. www.retroComputingTasmania.com From nigel.d.williams at gmail.com Tue Feb 16 01:57:38 2010 From: nigel.d.williams at gmail.com (Nigel Williams) Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 18:57:38 +1100 Subject: help navigating the DECUS archive Message-ID: <5f2019e51002152357w27a563b4na688481e4e5c4e86@mail.gmail.com> Does anyone have experience navigating the DECUS archive at digiater.nl? Under this directory: http://digiater.nl/openvms/decus/vax000/ is this file: 11spp_87.001 which contains this reference: 11-SP-42 Symposium Tape from the RSTS SIG, Spring 1980, Chicago Version: Spring 1980 Does the archive contain the contents of this tape? I would rather not have to download the large 500MB+ ZIPs to find the needle in the haystack and I am not sure I understand how the "indexing" scheme works. I looked in here: http://digiater.nl/openvms/decus/zips_unix_attributes/ but I cannot match these files with those listed under /vax000/ Any tips or directions would be appreciated. thanks, nigel. www.retroComputingTasmania.com From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Feb 16 02:08:36 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 03:08:36 -0500 Subject: [comp.sys.dec] BASIC-Plus-2 In-Reply-To: <5f2019e51002152132n15d469bcx8d454bb3e896406e@mail.gmail.com> References: <5f2019e51002152132n15d469bcx8d454bb3e896406e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <87CFC566-277A-48D1-A415-0900F75F2A89@neurotica.com> On Feb 16, 2010, at 12:32 AM, Nigel Williams wrote: > Has anyone managed to get any of the Layered Products installed on > RSTS/E V9.X (X >= 6)? Aside from F77 for which there was a declaration > of success here: > > http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/pipermail/simh/2008-March/001719.html > > I tried with BASIC Plus 2 V2.6 (with RSTS/E 9.6) and can see that the > tape appears to be a BACKUP INSTAL.BCK set, but RESTORE is refusing to > work with the tape (TPC file). > > Does anyone happen to have the BP2 installation guide or tips on how > the layered products are generally installed on RSTS/E? Usually one would do "@[0,1]instal " to install the layered products. I'm working on BP2 now, actually, and can't seem to make it work. I'm not sure why; I haven't really dug into it yet. I hope to spend some time on it tomorrow. -Dave > -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Feb 16 04:44:07 2010 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 05:44:07 -0500 Subject: VAX graphics In-Reply-To: <0A08DF25-5880-4D50-A080-7CC5C62EE8D7@neurotica.com> References: <0A08DF25-5880-4D50-A080-7CC5C62EE8D7@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4B7A76F7.9000008@gmail.com> Dave McGuire wrote: > Speaking of which...does anyone else here find it amusing that a big > marketing point of many modern laptops is "glossy screen"? Yes. Peace... Sridhar From ats at offog.org Tue Feb 16 06:10:35 2010 From: ats at offog.org (Adam Sampson) Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 12:10:35 +0000 Subject: HP-IB, Amigo/cs80 was Re: hp 9153 floppy & disk In-Reply-To: <4B7984C3.248.CCF82B@cclist.sydex.com> (Chuck Guzis's message of "Mon, 15 Feb 2010 17:30:43 -0800") References: <29B42CF9-CB3A-4D1F-93AF-08BD51739E5C@neurotica.com> <4B7984C3.248.CCF82B@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: "Chuck Guzis" writes: > I never could see the point to those. It's much easier just build up > your device using the bare chip. The AVR chip is easy enough to build into other devices, but the big advantage of the Arduino boards is that they have the USB-serial chip on as well, which is a much fiddlier SSOP-28 package. Other than that it's pretty much just a breakout board for all the pins; if your application doesn't require many external components (e.g. the remote control receiver I've got sitting in front of me at the moment) then building it on top of an Arduino directly makes sense. I've built a few more complex devices that use an ATmega8 with the Arduino bootloader (so you can use the Arduino toolchains to program it), running jumper wires across from an AVR-less Arduino board to provide a power supply and appropriately level-shifted serial port during development. I've also used the Arduino board as a cheap USB-to-TTL-serial converter for retrocomputing purposes... -- Adam Sampson From pat at computer-refuge.org Tue Feb 16 07:44:06 2010 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 08:44:06 -0500 Subject: VAX graphics In-Reply-To: <4B79ED74.1050609@softjar.se> References: <4B79ED74.1050609@softjar.se> Message-ID: <201002160844.07140.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Monday 15 February 2010, Johnny Billquist wrote: > The two companies that springs to my mind here are Intergraph, who > did CAD systems based on VAXen. They usually based their systems on > the VAX-11/750, but I don't think there was any technical reason > that an 11/780 shouldn't be possible as well. FWIW, the VAX-11/780s I have were a part of an intergraph setup at one point. I didn't save the drafting-table sized drawing tablets/cad terminals that were with it, because of a lack of space... Alas, the setup they had didn't look like the Intergraph stuff I saw. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From geneb at deltasoft.com Tue Feb 16 08:09:23 2010 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 06:09:23 -0800 (PST) Subject: HP-IB, Amigo/cs80 was Re: hp 9153 floppy & disk In-Reply-To: References: <29B42CF9-CB3A-4D1F-93AF-08BD51739E5C@neurotica.com> <4B7984C3.248.CCF82B@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 16 Feb 2010, Adam Sampson wrote: > it), running jumper wires across from an AVR-less Arduino board to > provide a power supply and appropriately level-shifted serial port > during development. I've also used the Arduino board as a cheap > USB-to-TTL-serial converter for retrocomputing purposes... > Adam, SparkFun makes a dedicated USB/Serial device based on the FTDI chip used on the Arduino for about $14. You can get it in a 3.3v or 5v version. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From n0body.h0me at inbox.com Tue Feb 16 10:25:24 2010 From: n0body.h0me at inbox.com (N0body H0me) Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 08:25:24 -0800 Subject: Apple II Books for Postage In-Reply-To: References: <4b79c39a.3010807@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: The books have been claimed. Thanks. > -----Original Message----- > From: n0body.h0me at inbox.com > Sent: Mon, 15 Feb 2010 17:39:55 -0800 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Apple II Books for Postage + 10% > > Hey Gang: > > I have some Apple II related books I'm never > going to use. The first person to offer postage > plus 10% gets 'em. The only stipulation is this: > You have to take the whole box. > > Here's what's inside: > > By Various publishers: > Applesoft Isn't Hard by Doug Carlston > Beneath_Apple DOS by by Worth & Lechner > AppleSoft BASIC Toolbox by Wintermeyer > A Bit of Applesoft BASIC by Crichfield & Dwyer > The Beginners Guide to Apple II Assembly Language by Zimmerman > > Genuine Apple Books: > ProDOS Supplement to the Apple //e Owners Manual > Applesoft BASIC Programmers Reference Manual Vol 1 & 2 (//e only) > AppleSoft Tutorial (for //e only) > Apple II Super Serial Card Install & Operating Manual > AppleMouse // Users Manual > Apple II The DOS Manual > > If there's no interest, then all of this will probably > get recycled, or, whatever. > > Reply off list please. . . . > > > Jeff > > ____________________________________________________________ > FREE 3D MARINE AQUARIUM SCREENSAVER - Watch dolphins, sharks & orcas on > your desktop! > Check it out at http://www.inbox.com/marineaquarium ____________________________________________________________ GET FREE 5GB EMAIL - Check out spam free email with many cool features! Visit http://www.inbox.com/email to find out more! From trag at io.com Tue Feb 16 10:31:57 2010 From: trag at io.com (Jeff Walther) Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 10:31:57 -0600 (CST) Subject: OT: Datasheet for Motorola MCM62940 32K X 9 SRAM? Message-ID: <2afdb46a6d931350fc5a4b879b1a45b1.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: >On 12 Feb 2010 at 15:30, Jeff Walther wrote: >> Anyone have a datasheet for the MCM62940 (MCM62940AFN14) static RAM? >> It's not strictly off topic, as it's from the 256K level 2 cache of a >> computer from the mid-90s (NuBus PPC Macintoshes). > Apparently, the MCM62486 is pin compatible and there are datasheets > for that online: > http://pdf.chinaicmart.com/86B/MCM62486BFN11_1159896.pdf > --Chuck Thanks you for the information, Chuck. They should be very similar. I imagine the difference is that the XX486 version has adaptations for the 80486 methods of addressing memory, while the 940 version is more oriented for the Motorola family of processors. At least, I think I read something to that effect somewhere--maybe in the description of the associated tag RAM. Anyway, I've emailed Brent and hope to pay to ship the whole databook. If anyone else decides they want to order the 4000 soldered down static RAMs I referenced (they have 19 batches in stock), I can scan the datasheet after I have the book--if I can get the scanner working again. Darned glass fell out because the manufacturer's double sided tape got old (it's more than 10 years old too). I tried a 3M tape that looked promising but it didn't hold. I'm going to try again and heat the tape and give it three days to set. On the first try I didn't see the information that the adhesive needs to set for three days. Who knew that one needs to read the datasheet on *adhesive tape* in order to use it properly? Jeff Walther From tshoppa at wmata.com Tue Feb 16 10:58:49 2010 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim) Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 11:58:49 -0500 Subject: help navigating the DECUS archive Message-ID: I have several of the DECUS sig tapes as images, and also extracted files. I think 11SP42 is one of them. Like most of the 70's and 80's post-paper-tape RSTS stuff it's a DOS-11 style magtape. Will put it up on ftp.trailing-edge.com tonight. Tim. From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Feb 16 11:49:04 2010 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 09:49:04 -0800 Subject: HP-IB, Amigo/cs80 was Re: hp 9153 floppy & disk In-Reply-To: References: <4affc5e1002151747v4a867a8cj763b86b0c54ecf44@mail.gmail.com> <4B7A04A1.30807@verizon.net> <4B7998DB.27241.11B7696@cclist.sydex.com> <4B7A0D00.70306@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4B7ADA90.3010503@bitsavers.org> On 2/15/10 9:22 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > That may well be true, but my own interest is primarily in the CBM > implementation of IEEE-488, and that, I think, has a reasonably good > chance of going somewhere. Take a look at the development tree for MESS. A lot of good work going on related to CBM disks right now there. http://mess.dorando.at/svn/ From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Feb 16 11:56:45 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 12:56:45 -0500 Subject: [comp.sys.dec] BASIC-Plus-2 In-Reply-To: <5f2019e51002152132n15d469bcx8d454bb3e896406e@mail.gmail.com> References: <5f2019e51002152132n15d469bcx8d454bb3e896406e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6EB8FB1D-99B6-4102-B5FC-C1240CCEA391@neurotica.com> On Feb 16, 2010, at 12:32 AM, Nigel Williams wrote: > Has anyone managed to get any of the Layered Products installed on > RSTS/E V9.X (X >= 6)? Aside from F77 for which there was a declaration > of success here: > > http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/pipermail/simh/2008-March/001719.html > > I tried with BASIC Plus 2 V2.6 (with RSTS/E 9.6) and can see that the > tape appears to be a BACKUP INSTAL.BCK set, but RESTORE is refusing to > work with the tape (TPC file). > > Does anyone happen to have the BP2 installation guide or tips on how > the layered products are generally installed on RSTS/E? OK, I've just done this successfully under a few different releases of RSTS/E under simh. The difference is I'm using v2.7, not v2.6, because that's what I had handy. First, make sure the tape is attached as a TPC file, see the simh docs. Then, ALLOCATE your tape device, and run "@[0,1]instal bp2" and follow the prompts. That's it...worked like a champ. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cclist at sydex.com Tue Feb 16 12:05:02 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 10:05:02 -0800 Subject: OT: Datasheet for Motorola MCM62940 32K X 9 SRAM? In-Reply-To: <2afdb46a6d931350fc5a4b879b1a45b1.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com> References: <2afdb46a6d931350fc5a4b879b1a45b1.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com> Message-ID: <4B7A6DCE.11769.F162E@cclist.sydex.com> On 16 Feb 2010 at 10:31, Jeff Walther wrote: > Darned glass fell out because the manufacturer's double sided tape got > old (it's more than 10 years old too). I tried a 3M tape > znfcqj3.html?WT.z_xsell=1&WT.z_refSKU=3M-HIGH-PERFORMANCE-DOUBLE-COATE > D-TAPE-9086-56Q9TKZKD9> > that looked promising but it didn't hold. I'm going to try again and > heat the tape and give it three days to set. On the first try I > didn't see the information that the adhesive needs to set for three > days. I'm using a lot of polyurethane glue (e.g. "Gorilla Glue") nowadays. I used to use it quite a bit in woodworking (it's stainable and fills gaps) until my wife asked me to repair a hairclip of hers constructed of a metal clip affixed to a glass decorative element. Epoxy wouldn't stick to the glass no matter what I did and I was about to reach for the RTV, when I wondered about the polyurethane. Years later, it's still holding. I use it to tack down components to bare FR4 PCB, where I want a bit more strength. I've replaced the double- sided tape on cable clips with it. The great part is that it can be cut with a utility knife and cleaned up or removed once it's set. It just might do the job on your scanner--but use it very sparingly. It expands when it cures. --Chuck From emu at e-bbes.com Tue Feb 16 12:35:31 2010 From: emu at e-bbes.com (e.stiebler) Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 11:35:31 -0700 Subject: CBM : Re: HP-IB, Amigo/cs80 was Re: hp 9153 floppy & disk In-Reply-To: <4B7ADA90.3010503@bitsavers.org> References: <4affc5e1002151747v4a867a8cj763b86b0c54ecf44@mail.gmail.com> <4B7A04A1.30807@verizon.net> <4B7998DB.27241.11B7696@cclist.sydex.com> <4B7A0D00.70306@bitsavers.org> <4B7ADA90.3010503@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4B7AE573.1090405@e-bbes.com> Al Kossow wrote: > On 2/15/10 9:22 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > >> That may well be true, but my own interest is primarily in the CBM >> implementation of IEEE-488, and that, I think, has a reasonably good >> chance of going somewhere. > > Take a look at the development tree for MESS. A lot of good work going on > related to CBM disks right now there. But the CBM attachment is simply the DIN connector (with serial 488 signals), or where there other onces ? From keithvz at verizon.net Tue Feb 16 13:08:42 2010 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith) Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 14:08:42 -0500 Subject: HP-IB, Amigo/cs80 was Re: hp 9153 floppy & disk In-Reply-To: References: <29B42CF9-CB3A-4D1F-93AF-08BD51739E5C@neurotica.com> <4B7984C3.248.CCF82B@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4B7AED3A.80707@verizon.net> Gene Buckle wrote: > On Tue, 16 Feb 2010, Adam Sampson wrote: > >> it), running jumper wires across from an AVR-less Arduino board to >> provide a power supply and appropriately level-shifted serial port >> during development. I've also used the Arduino board as a cheap >> USB-to-TTL-serial converter for retrocomputing purposes... >> > Adam, SparkFun makes a dedicated USB/Serial device based on the FTDI > chip used on the Arduino for about $14. You can get it in a 3.3v or 5v > version. > > and FWIW, the FTDI chips are fantastic, as far as drivers, support, etc. Keith From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Feb 16 13:09:30 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 14:09:30 -0500 Subject: CBM : Re: HP-IB, Amigo/cs80 was Re: hp 9153 floppy & disk In-Reply-To: <4B7AE573.1090405@e-bbes.com> References: <4affc5e1002151747v4a867a8cj763b86b0c54ecf44@mail.gmail.com> <4B7A04A1.30807@verizon.net> <4B7998DB.27241.11B7696@cclist.sydex.com> <4B7A0D00.70306@bitsavers.org> <4B7ADA90.3010503@bitsavers.org> <4B7AE573.1090405@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: On 2/16/10, e.stiebler wrote: > On 2/15/10 9:22 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > >> That may well be true, but my own interest is primarily in the CBM >> implementation of IEEE-488, and that, I think, has a reasonably good >> chance of going somewhere. >> > But the CBM attachment is simply the DIN connector (with serial 488 > signals), or where there other onces ? That's for VIC-20 and C-64 and newer machines. PETs (often badged as "CBM" machines after the earliest models) have a full-on parallel IEEE-488 interface, albeit implemented by the 6502 bit-banging VIAs and PIAs, not with TMS9914s or MC68488 or other GPIB-on-a-chip implementations. Look up CBM 2040/3040/4040/8050/8250/9060/9090 disk drives. There were also a number of printer models 4022 and such, plus a modem, plus third-party periperhals (TNW serial, etc). PET models include 2001-8, 2001-32N, 2001-32B, 3008, 3016, 3032, 4016, 4032, 8032, SuperPET, and more (the later "Business" line that I don't know as much about). The serialized IEEE-488 stuff came after 1982 or so. Parallel IEEE-488 started with the very first PET (even if the initial ROMs had problems with diskette drives and only worked reliably with printers), and continued for quite some time. Part of my interest is because I have a couple of D9060 and D9090 hard disks, but the original Tandon TM602S and TM603S drives are somewhat rare (I have more boards and enclosures than working original drives), but you can replace them with certain Seagate models - even those are getting somewhat rare. It would be "better" for the long term to come up with a newer parallel IEEE-488 drive than depend on finding then hacking a somewhat uncommon product from 20+ years ago. I've recently learned more about HP Amigo/CS80 drives, but I do know that implementing a modern microcontroller-based drive emulator for Commodore machines shouldn't have any bizarre pitfalls - just listen on the channel, speak when you are spoken to, and understand a dozen or two "CBM DOS" commands and do what's asked. The original implementation fits in a few K of 6502 machine code. A 16K AVR should be able to handle it, and if not, a 32K part, as long as there's enough RAM to sufficiently emulate the sub-file-level-access commands. For simply loading and saving PRG files and getting directories, that subset of CBM DOS shouldn't be hard at all to do. REL files are another matter. Those could easily take as long as the entire rest of the project and more. -ethan From RichA at vulcan.com Tue Feb 16 13:34:12 2010 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 11:34:12 -0800 Subject: Fwd: [comp.sys.dec] BASIC-Plus-2 In-Reply-To: <5f2019e51002152132n15d469bcx8d454bb3e896406e@mail.gmail.com> References: <5f2019e51002152132n15d469bcx8d454bb3e896406e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: From: Nigel Williams Sent: Monday, February 15, 2010 9:33 PM > A related question: Can anyone explain what a field-test versions of > RSTS/E means? is it a release candidate (in modern parlance) or a > beta? I see RSTS/E V10 but it is annotated with field-test so I assume > it was not the final shipping version. I believe that the nomenclature was DEC-wide, so I can tell what it meant in the 36-bit world. A Field Test was a beta with selected customers, who reported problems encountered on a QAR (very much like an SPR but not going to the same address). At the end of the Field Test, which might ship a number of tapes over the course of the test, a "clock tape" was issued which is the equivalent of a Release Candidate in modern parlance. This came out a couple of weeks prior to release. The TOPS-20 v6 field test involved 6 sets of tapes prior to the clock tape; v6.1 came out just a couple of months after the official release. The v7 field test involved only 3 sets of tapes before the clock tape. I was the official point of contact for the v7 field test at Stanford. Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.PDPplanet.org/ http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From cclist at sydex.com Tue Feb 16 13:35:49 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 11:35:49 -0800 Subject: HP-IB, Amigo/cs80 was Re: hp 9153 floppy & disk In-Reply-To: <4B7AED3A.80707@verizon.net> References: , , <4B7AED3A.80707@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4B7A8315.17434.6234DE@cclist.sydex.com> On 16 Feb 2010 at 14:08, Keith wrote: > and FWIW, the FTDI chips are fantastic, as far as drivers, support, > etc. And ready-to-deploy FTDI packages can be had that fit nicely in a DIP socket: http://www.futurlec.com/USB.shtml Or one can implement USB directly in just about any AVR: http://www.obdev.at/products/vusb/index.html --Chuck From oltmansg at bellsouth.net Tue Feb 16 13:49:53 2010 From: oltmansg at bellsouth.net (geoffrey oltmans) Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 11:49:53 -0800 (PST) Subject: OT: Datasheet for Motorola MCM62940 32K X 9 SRAM? In-Reply-To: <4B7A6DCE.11769.F162E@cclist.sydex.com> References: <2afdb46a6d931350fc5a4b879b1a45b1.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com> <4B7A6DCE.11769.F162E@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <45570.12451.qm@web83909.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Gorilla Glue is good stuff. I've used it to repair the door panels in my car. They still hold together quite well. :) ________________________________ From: Chuck Guzis To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Sent: Tue, February 16, 2010 12:05:02 PM Subject: Re: OT: Datasheet for Motorola MCM62940 32K X 9 SRAM? On 16 Feb 2010 at 10:31, Jeff Walther wrote: > Darned glass fell out because the manufacturer's double sided tape got > old (it's more than 10 years old too). I tried a 3M tape > znfcqj3.html?WT.z_xsell=1&WT.z_refSKU=3M-HIGH-PERFORMANCE-DOUBLE-COATE > D-TAPE-9086-56Q9TKZKD9> > that looked promising but it didn't hold. I'm going to try again and > heat the tape and give it three days to set. On the first try I > didn't see the information that the adhesive needs to set for three > days. I'm using a lot of polyurethane glue (e.g. "Gorilla Glue") nowadays. I used to use it quite a bit in woodworking (it's stainable and fills gaps) until my wife asked me to repair a hairclip of hers constructed of a metal clip affixed to a glass decorative element. Epoxy wouldn't stick to the glass no matter what I did and I was about to reach for the RTV, when I wondered about the polyurethane. Years later, it's still holding. I use it to tack down components to bare FR4 PCB, where I want a bit more strength. I've replaced the double- sided tape on cable clips with it. The great part is that it can be cut with a utility knife and cleaned up or removed once it's set. It just might do the job on your scanner--but use it very sparingly. It expands when it cures. --Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Feb 16 13:24:51 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 19:24:51 +0000 (GMT) Subject: HP-IB, Amigo/cs80 was Re: hp 9153 floppy & disk In-Reply-To: <6AEA35F6-EA40-45E0-A0A3-F2CA5E584517@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Feb 15, 10 04:38:12 pm Message-ID: > > More seriously, the setup for microcontrollers should be pretty > > simple. > > Most of the modern ones seem to have an in-system-programming > > interface, > > normally similar to SPI. That can be bit-banged over the lines of a > > parallel port. > > Hmm. No machines with parallel ports here, except for classic > ones. I suppose I could use a 5150.. I said 'can be bit-banged ove the lines of a parallel port' not 'nust be bit-banged...' :-). I've seen devices that connect to a USB port at one end and to a microcotnroller at the other (the one I saw was for PICs, and not surpisinging it contained a PIC and not much else..) I am sure such things exist for most microcontrollers. As an aside, I miss the 'user ports' that existed on some 1980s home computers (Commodore and the BBC micro being the obvious ones). It's a lot harder to play around with simple interfacing and control projects now. > > As regards the actual hardware. as I said, you can hand-wire the > > microcontroller, clock crystal, HPIB buffers, etc on a bit of > > square-pad > > board in an hour or so. > > Very true. It seems that many people think development boards are > "ready made microcontroller boards". I can't tell you how many > development boards I've seen mounted in permanent, application- > specific chassis. That kind of idiocy makes me ill. > Me too. It really annoys me when I see a development board kludged into an applciation where it doesn't really fit. It would be a lot less effort (and money) to design the darn thing properly in the first place. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Feb 16 13:32:12 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 19:32:12 +0000 (GMT) Subject: HP-IB, Amigo/cs80 was Re: hp 9153 floppy & disk In-Reply-To: <4B79C330.4050006@e-bbes.com> from "e.stiebler" at Feb 15, 10 02:57:04 pm Message-ID: > > Tony Duell wrote: > > > I don't think you could fit all the logic to implement CS/80 or Amigo > > protocol in any sensible FPGA. I think it can be done in a modern > > microcontroller. > > I can fit it in, for development. I made some FPGA board for myself, Blimey!. How many equivalent gates is this FPGA, then? I am amazed it has space for a CPU, 16K of 'ROM', a few K of buffer RAM, etc. > simply because I think they are more flexible. They are. But that doesn;t make them the right solution to every problem.I still feel a microcontroller is more sensible for this application. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Feb 16 13:38:02 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 19:38:02 +0000 (GMT) Subject: VAX graphics In-Reply-To: <4B79ED74.1050609@softjar.se> from "Johnny Billquist" at Feb 16, 10 01:57:24 am Message-ID: > The two companies that springs to my mind here are Intergraph, who did > CAD systems based on VAXen. They usually based their systems on the > VAX-11/750, but I don't think there was any technical reason that an > 11/780 shouldn't be possible as well. > > The other is Evans and Sutherland, who specialized in high performance > graphic subsystems. My guess would be that this was some E&S graphic > system, but it's hard to tell, since I never actually saw any of their > stuff in real life. But I think it was/is a whole bunch of cards on the > Unibus, and video cables to a color monitor. And of course input ports > for keyboard and tablet. > > There might have been other players around as well. There were. Off the top of my head there were Ramtek (systems with a Z80 or 68000 CPU to control them, linked to Unibus or Qbus) PPL (who made a system using an analogue hard disk (!) -- the video was stored usign FM modulation with one track per frame. Of course it was a fixed-head disk. Grinnell (?Spel) who made a thing that linked to a DR11-B, I think it was jsut a dumb framestore, though I2S (Integrated Imaging Systems), who made image displays with some local intellegence, board after board of lovely TTL and DRAMs... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Feb 16 13:43:29 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 19:43:29 +0000 (GMT) Subject: HP-IB, Amigo/cs80 was Re: hp 9153 floppy & disk In-Reply-To: <4B79F879.4020005@jbrain.com> from "Jim Brain" at Feb 15, 10 07:44:25 pm Message-ID: > > On 2/15/2010 7:30 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > With reference to Arudinos, someone wrote: > > > > > >> They're ready-made boards that aren't in an application specific > >> chassis. : > >> > > I never could see the point to those. It's much easier just build up > > your device using the bare chip. If one of the big AVRs, such as one > > of the XMegas, it might make some sense in helping to deal with > > handling an SMT package, sort of the way the ARM stamps do. > > > > --Chuck > > > > > I'm glad I'm not the only one who notes that. > > On the other hand, this comes from a guy who sells little interfaces > that allow one to use SD cards on a 20+ year old machine. My theory is > that people are averse to solder nowadays, and these boards mitigate the > need to care about the construction aspect. I am missing something here. The purpose of a microcontroller is to control something. You have to build an interface between the microcontroller and whatever it is goign to control. And like it or not, building that interface is going to involve some soldering. I can see the point of evaluation boards to see if the microocontroller/FPGA/whatever is going to be useful (although it's often a lot cheaper and more educational just to buy the chips and solder up an evaluation board that has the features you need). I don't see this problem with soldering. Soft soldering is not difficult. I must have taught dozens of people to solder over the years, and every single one of them could solder well enough to use a microcontroller. It's a skil ltaht takes an afternoon at most to learn. Since most electronic components are joined by soldered conneections, I regard it as a fundamental skill needed to do amateur electronics. Period. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Feb 16 14:33:58 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 20:33:58 +0000 (GMT) Subject: HP-IB, Amigo/cs80 was Re: hp 9153 floppy & disk In-Reply-To: <4B7A04A1.30807@verizon.net> from "keith" at Feb 15, 10 09:36:17 pm Message-ID: > I think there is also a certain group of people (present company > excluded, of course) that don't want to allow the "newbies" in their > precious "club." They feel that by removing the barriers to entry > (maybe learning to solder, learning assembly language, learning basic > electronics) that their self-worth is somehow diluted because the end > goal is more easily attainable now w/o requiring these skills. Hmmm.. While I have never wanted to exclude anyone from an elitist 'club' (I will share my knowledge freely with anyone who asks, I will point people in the right direction, and so on), I do feel very strongly that there are certain skills, and certain knowledge that are _essential_ if you want to do any form of electronics. Of course if you don't want to do electronics, then you may not need these skills, I have no problem with that. I would including soldering on that list. Virtually all electornic circuits are assembles with soldered joints. Those infernal solderless breadboards are a waste of space or worse. They often develop intermittant connections, the stray capacitacne is excessive, and so on. Learning t osodler well enough to work with through-hole components should ony take an afternoon anyway. It's not difficult. I would also claim you need to understand some basic electronics. Oh, sure you can wire up a few switches and LEDs to a microcontroller port. And then find that the built-in pull-ups of the microcontroller are not suffiecient to pull the signal really high all the time so you get noise pickup. Or you link up a relay as a load without the protection diode and end up zapping the microcontroller from the back emf when you turn it off. And so on. > > Talk to the old grouchy hams about adding no-code tech ham radio > licenses on your local repeater, if you want your ear beat for 1/2 hour. I was the equivalent of a no-code-tech for many years. The only reason I am not any more is that the morse code requirement has been removed. I never could get my ears round morse... I would argue that there shouldn't be artificial barriers to doing this sort of thing. The morse code requriement made sense once, IMHO it doesn't any more. Please don't give me that worn out argument that many people enjopy morse. Of course they do. I woul;dn't for an instant support a _ban_ on using morse code on amateur bands. Just as I wouldn't support a ban on driving cars with 'crash' gearboxes. But that doesn't mean I think double declutching should be included in the driving test. In the same way I don't think that just because people once made their own grid leak resistors, that we should still require beginners to make them today. Go out and buy resistors. But you still need to understnad what they are used for, and how to calculate (or estimate) the right value to use. > > I enjoy sort of the sparkfun-methodology ---- off the shelf breakout > boards, sensor modules, easily accessible headers for connecting things, > and so on. It allows you to leverage very advanced technologies by > providing an easy interface. Maybe that technology is GPS, or cellular, > or whatever. There is, IMHO, one problem to totallu dumbing things down, and if this makes me elitist, so be it. It's this. If everyone thinks they can do electronic design just becasue they've plugged a sensor board into a microntroller board, then those people who really can design at the chip level or below are no longer valued, at least not by the majority. And that is a pity Als, if you're not careful, this 'plug a few modules together' methodology leads to a number of very poor, over-complex designs. And some of them may even end up as products :-( I am sure I've told you how I once showed a so-called designer who wanted to use a microcontrolelr module + input interface modules + ... as part of a control system that his problem could be solved using few lengths of wire and otherwise unused contacts on his relays and swithces. Hmmm... -tony From bqt at softjar.se Tue Feb 16 13:20:27 2010 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 20:20:27 +0100 Subject: VAX graphics In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B7AEFFB.8020603@softjar.se> Richard wrote: > > In article , > William Donzelli writes: > >>> The VT102 User Guide on vt100.net shows that you could get a green >>> antiglare filter: >> It is also reasonable to think that DEC did a run of VT100oids with green tub > es. > > I think he's right though. In documentation I've read through, there > were green and amber models offered for the successive generations but > I don't recall having read that the VT100 or earlier models had > anything other than the white phosphor. I think that is correct. I've never seen, nor heard of anything but white phosphor VT100s. *However*, there were clones made by other companies (unfortunately I don't remember any names here), which looked pretty much exactly like the VT100, and which did come with green phosphor. Johnny From bqt at softjar.se Tue Feb 16 13:28:55 2010 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 20:28:55 +0100 Subject: VAX graphics In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B7AF1F7.8030008@softjar.se> Patrick Finnegan wrote: On Monday 15 February 2010, Johnny Billquist wrote: >> > The two companies that springs to my mind here are Intergraph, who >> > did CAD systems based on VAXen. They usually based their systems on >> > the VAX-11/750, but I don't think there was any technical reason >> > that an 11/780 shouldn't be possible as well. > > FWIW, the VAX-11/780s I have were a part of an intergraph setup at one > point. I didn't save the drafting-table sized drawing tablets/cad > terminals that were with it, because of a lack of space... > > Alas, the setup they had didn't look like the Intergraph stuff I saw. Cool. Nice information, thanks. After searching the net for a while, I think it is an E&S graphic system. ES340 seems most likely, but ES390 might also be it. There are information about an older system for the PDP-11 machines by E&S on the net, which strikes me as very similar, and probably a kind of predecessor. Johnny From brain at jbrain.com Tue Feb 16 15:35:06 2010 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 15:35:06 -0600 Subject: HP-IB, Amigo/cs80 was Re: hp 9153 floppy & disk In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B7B0F8A.8050109@jbrain.com> On 2/16/2010 1:43 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > > I am missing something here. The purpose of a microcontroller is to > control something. You have to build an interface between the > microcontroller and whatever it is goign to control. And like it or not, > building that interface is going to involve some soldering. > I think that last part is the part you're missing. Many people will do anything to not solder, so they will use accessories with pigtails, wirenuts and spade connectors, or crimp connectors or IDC connectors with ribbon cable split out to individual wires, with wirenuts to other wires, etc. I am sure I'm missing some of the non-solder-based connection methods, but you get the idea. Now, if you carp about that being overly complex, prone to error, and bad signal quality, you'll find no argument here. But, I've seen lots of projects along those lines. SparkFun and similar venues make boards that bring lines out to .1" double row headers, which means these "no-solderers" tank up on ribbon cable and IDC female connectors to make it all fit. Now, I won't knock SparkFun. It's a nice market, and if you're prototyping something, having it all soldered down to a PCB with a .1" double row header makes it easy to move onto the rest of the project. Later, when you've got it running, a good PCB design can be the next step. I think SparkFun intends it this way (use us for proof of concept, one offs, and prototypes), and their prices reflect it (nice margins for essentially mounting an IC on a PCB). No doubt SparkFun has no qualms with people paying a premium to be allergic to solder for 100 units of something. As a business owner, I could go for that. Jim From useddec at gmail.com Tue Feb 16 15:40:22 2010 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 15:40:22 -0600 Subject: book conservation info: slightly off topic Message-ID: <624966d61002161340u1f99ad42i480171e6d69b59fe@mail.gmail.com> I am not saying that any of my books are rare, and that is not the point of this, but I do want to preserve them. Most are non-fiction, some are from the 1800's, and a few were piblished by MIT. After being in storage for a few years during rebuilding, some have mold and or dirt on them. I wanted to clean them properly, and contacted the Rare Book Library at The University of Illinois. They were kind enough to send me the following links. I have not read through all of them yet, but I thought this might be useful to some list members Hello, XXXXXX asked that I send you a list of resources to aid you in your conservation needs. The following sites offer comprehensive and easy-to-follow guides: http://www.nps.gov/history/museum/publications/conserveogram/04-09.pdf http://www.nps.gov/history/museum/publications/conserveogram/03-04.pdf http://www.mnhs.org/preserve/conservation/bookspaper.html http://www.conservation-us.org/index.cfm?fuseaction=Page.viewPage&pageId=497&parentID=472 http://www.loc.gov/preserv/familytreasures/ http://www.nedcc.org/resources/resources.php This is extremely in-depth and may be above and beyond what you are looking for: http://cool.conservation-us.org/coolaic/sg/bpg/pcc/12_mold-fungi.pdf Thanks, Paul From joachim.thiemann at gmail.com Tue Feb 16 15:42:47 2010 From: joachim.thiemann at gmail.com (Joachim Thiemann) Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 16:42:47 -0500 Subject: HP-IB, Amigo/cs80 was Re: hp 9153 floppy & disk In-Reply-To: References: <4B7A04A1.30807@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4affc5e1002161342o62eeecc1w5a1f1e3fc46a748@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Feb 16, 2010 at 15:33, Tony Duell wrote: > ... I do feel very strongly that there > are certain skills, and certain knowledge that are _essential_ if you > want to do any form of electronics. Of course if you don't want to do > electronics, then you may not need these skills, I have no problem with that. > > I would including soldering on that list. ... > > I would also claim you need to understand some basic electronics. ... > > There is, IMHO, one problem to totallu dumbing things down, and if this > makes me elitist, so be it. It's this. If everyone thinks they can do > electronic design just becasue they've plugged a sensor board into a > microntroller board, then those people who really can design at the chip > level or below are no longer valued, at least not by the majority. And > that is a pity > > Als, if you're not careful, this 'plug a few modules together' > methodology leads to a number of very poor, over-complex designs. And > some of them may even end up as products :-( I am sure I've told you how > I once showed a so-called designer who wanted to use a microcontrolelr > module + input interface modules + ... as part of a control system that > his problem could be solved using few lengths of wire and otherwise > unused contacts on his relays and swithces. Hmmm... Tony, I think you are being elitist, but not in an evil, dismissive way but more in the (Monty Python-esque) "in MY days we had to walk uphill both ways in 10 ft snow-drifts" kind of way. :-) I can totally see where you are coming from, but think you are a bit too dismissive of the "kids". I will just argue that the kids will be alright, in the end. Yes, breadboards are horrible, electrically. But everyone has to start learning electronics somewhere and somehow, and solderless breadboards allow students to try things quickly, blow stuff up, burn transistors etc, etc - I still have a board somewhere with blackened traces :-) It is the best way to teach. If you force students to design, check and solder even simple low-speed circuits, they will loose interest quickly. Plug-in modules are simply the next step in evolution from TTL chips. The dumbing down of design is not as harmful as you may think; Nicolaus Wirth once decried the poisoning of young programmers caused by millions of BASIC home computers - see how that turned out! (ummmm.... bad example? Kidding! Bad programmers are probably bad programmers no matter what language they start out with, good programmers can learn and adapt to better languages) Many new hardware designs are wasteful, and part of the problem is the availability of pre-made pre-packaged modules; in exchange, new cool devices are being designed and brought to market at breakneck speed. And I'm certain that even in the 70's, people were sticking op-amps where a transistor or two would have been adequate, so there is nothing new under the sun. The ones that end up as "real" designers (at hardware companies) will probably be the ones that care enough to go deeper into the details. I love all that stuff you can get nowadays. If only I would have more time :-) -- Joachim Thiemann :: http://www.tsp.ece.mcgill.ca/~jthiem From brianlanning at gmail.com Tue Feb 16 15:53:29 2010 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 15:53:29 -0600 Subject: OT: Televisions Message-ID: <6dbe3c381002161353n2ea6e4d9i622aa9fd118011ee@mail.gmail.com> Well, maybe not so off topic... I have two things I'd like to ask about. First, I'll be replacing the display for my main computer shortly. I'd like to get something larger than 20". I'm thinking an LCD wide format thingy. I'm considering getting a "flat" television instead of a monitor. Most of them have DVI or VGA connectors on them. But they also include component inputs, HDMI, and maybe some other things that can ease connection to classic computers. A composite RCA is a must. Can anyone suggest a TV model that that's relatively fast (like < 8ms), and has a high enough resolution that would also be good for the classic stuff? I'm thinking 1080p would be fine for a windows desktop. The next question pertains to console televisions. I'd like to find (much to my wife's dismay) a console television like the one my parents had back in the late 70s. I'd like to use it to play old video game consoles from the 70s and 80s. I believe these were all vacuum tube sets though, is that correct? Is there a good source for these things (the TVs and the tubes) today? I imagine people threw them away mostly. If these are difficult to find and/or maintain, I've considered trying to create a replica console television from a newer set, maybe even something with an LCD in it. I'd probably prefer an original though. Then i could invite my mother over and sit too close to the television for her. brian From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Feb 16 15:53:39 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 16:53:39 -0500 Subject: VAX graphics In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > I think he's right though. ?In documentation I've read through, there > were green and amber models offered for the successive generations but > I don't recall having read that the VT100 or earlier models had > anything other than the white phosphor. Once again, those troublesome words "always" and "never" get us in trouble. Always expect exceptions. Never completely trust documentation. Sure, the VT100 documentation shows that VT100s are "always" white - but have you considered ALL of the documentation? It is perfectly reasonable to think that DEC may have done a run of green VT100oids*, complete with an ECO or errata sheet (quickly thrown away or lost) saying something like "by the way, you are getting green tubes". Or there could have been an RPQ job - ask DEC to make some green VT100oids, maybe pay a little money, and DEC delivers green. IBM was quite adept at this. Once again, no need to reprint the manual when a single sheet of paper will do. The problem is that documentation for these types of things rarely shows up these days, or maybe never existed much at all outside the sales order or the factory itself. -- Will From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Feb 16 15:58:57 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 16:58:57 -0500 Subject: OT: Televisions In-Reply-To: <6dbe3c381002161353n2ea6e4d9i622aa9fd118011ee@mail.gmail.com> References: <6dbe3c381002161353n2ea6e4d9i622aa9fd118011ee@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <05E14709-4CE0-4308-A921-260BA6738AE4@neurotica.com> On Feb 16, 2010, at 4:53 PM, Brian Lanning wrote: > The next question pertains to console televisions. I'd like to > find (much > to my wife's dismay) a console television like the one my parents > had back > in the late 70s. I'd like to use it to play old video game > consoles from > the 70s and 80s. I believe these were all vacuum tube sets though, > is that > correct? It is absolutely NOT correct...They were tube up until the early 1970s, but were made in solid-state form (except for the CRT of course) for many years after that. I purchased such a solid-state console TV, brand new, for a family member around 1992 or so. > Is there a good source for these things (the TVs and the tubes) > today? I imagine people threw them away mostly. Pretty much. Check freecycle lists or craigslist until one shows up. They're not uncommon. > If these are difficult to find and/or maintain, Not either.. > I've considered trying to create a replica console > television from a newer set, maybe even something with an LCD in > it. I'd > probably prefer an original though. Then i could invite my mother > over and > sit too close to the television for her. Oh good heavens. ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ats at offog.org Tue Feb 16 17:53:37 2010 From: ats at offog.org (Adam Sampson) Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 23:53:37 +0000 Subject: HP-IB, Amigo/cs80 was Re: hp 9153 floppy & disk In-Reply-To: (Gene Buckle's message of "Tue, 16 Feb 2010 06:09:23 -0800 (PST)") References: <29B42CF9-CB3A-4D1F-93AF-08BD51739E5C@neurotica.com> <4B7984C3.248.CCF82B@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: Gene Buckle writes: > Adam, SparkFun makes a dedicated USB/Serial device based on the FTDI > chip used on the Arduino for about $14. You can get it in a 3.3v or > 5v version. Which is fine, but I've got plenty of Arduino boards (which are also in the $15 range) sitting around anyway, so I may as well use them. ;-) And yes, the FTDI chips are nifty -- they've even got an arbitrary-IO mode... -- Adam Sampson From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Tue Feb 16 18:30:24 2010 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 16:30:24 -0800 (PST) Subject: Tubes (was OT: Televisions) In-Reply-To: <05E14709-4CE0-4308-A921-260BA6738AE4@neurotica.com> References: <6dbe3c381002161353n2ea6e4d9i622aa9fd118011ee@mail.gmail.com> <05E14709-4CE0-4308-A921-260BA6738AE4@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 16 Feb 2010, Dave McGuire wrote: > On Feb 16, 2010, at 4:53 PM, Brian Lanning wrote: >> The next question pertains to console televisions. I'd like to find (much >> to my wife's dismay) a console television like the one my parents had back >> in the late 70s. I'd like to use it to play old video game consoles from >> the 70s and 80s. I believe these were all vacuum tube sets though, is that >> correct? > > It is absolutely NOT correct...They were tube up until the early 1970s, but > were made in solid-state form (except for the CRT of course) for many years > after that. I purchased such a solid-state console TV, brand new, for a > family member around 1992 or so. Slightly related is the subject of tubes in radios. I get a kick out of using tube radios. One big problem though is that there is no source of brand-new tubes anymore. It's all new-old-stock. Tube-amp enthusiasts have a ready supply of newly-manufactured tubes from a small variety of eastern European makers, but those are almost entirely unsuitable for making radios. I really wish some of these makers could be convinced to make new signal tubes. I like my new-old Philco, but the fact that it uses loktal tubes gives me an icky feeling when using it. Nobody is selling AA5 loktal lineups on ebay. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Feb 16 18:38:19 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 19:38:19 -0500 Subject: Tubes (was OT: Televisions) In-Reply-To: References: <6dbe3c381002161353n2ea6e4d9i622aa9fd118011ee@mail.gmail.com> <05E14709-4CE0-4308-A921-260BA6738AE4@neurotica.com> Message-ID: > ?I really wish some of these makers could be convinced to make new signal > tubes. ?I like my new-old Philco, but the fact that it uses loktal tubes > gives me an icky feeling when using it. ?Nobody is selling AA5 loktal > lineups on ebay. Mostly because nobody wants them. -- Will From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Feb 16 18:40:52 2010 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 16:40:52 -0800 (PST) Subject: Tubes (was OT: Televisions) In-Reply-To: References: <6dbe3c381002161353n2ea6e4d9i622aa9fd118011ee@mail.gmail.com> <05E14709-4CE0-4308-A921-260BA6738AE4@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 16 Feb 2010, David Griffith wrote: > Slightly related is the subject of tubes in radios. I get a kick out of > using tube radios. One big problem though is that there is no source of > brand-new tubes anymore. It's all new-old-stock. Tube-amp enthusiasts have > a ready supply of newly-manufactured tubes from a small variety of eastern > European makers, but those are almost entirely unsuitable for making radios. > I really wish some of these makers could be convinced to make new signal > tubes. I like my new-old Philco, but the fact that it uses loktal tubes > gives me an icky feeling when using it. Nobody is selling AA5 loktal lineups > on ebay. I would think that there would be a definite market for such tubes. I know the feeling you're talking about. I use a Stereo from about 1964 for listening to the radio and 78's. Though I know where there is a 2nd identical stereo I might be able to canabilize if needed. Zane From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Feb 16 18:42:19 2010 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 16:42:19 -0800 (PST) Subject: Tubes (was OT: Televisions) In-Reply-To: References: <6dbe3c381002161353n2ea6e4d9i622aa9fd118011ee@mail.gmail.com> <05E14709-4CE0-4308-A921-260BA6738AE4@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 16 Feb 2010, William Donzelli wrote: >> ?I really wish some of these makers could be convinced to make new signal >> tubes. ?I like my new-old Philco, but the fact that it uses loktal tubes >> gives me an icky feeling when using it. ?Nobody is selling AA5 loktal >> lineups on ebay. > > Mostly because nobody wants them. What are the people with these high-end Tube Amps using for thier AM/FM radio's? Or are they simply connected to high-end turntables? Zane From cclist at sydex.com Tue Feb 16 18:42:36 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 16:42:36 -0800 Subject: Tubes (was OT: Televisions) In-Reply-To: References: <6dbe3c381002161353n2ea6e4d9i622aa9fd118011ee@mail.gmail.com>, <05E14709-4CE0-4308-A921-260BA6738AE4@neurotica.com>, Message-ID: <4B7ACAFC.27908.17B12E8@cclist.sydex.com> On 16 Feb 2010 at 16:30, David Griffith wrote: > Slightly related is the subject of tubes in radios. I get a kick out > of using tube radios. One big problem though is that there is no > source of brand-new tubes anymore. It's all new-old-stock. Tube-amp > enthusiasts have a ready supply of newly-manufactured tubes from a > small variety of eastern European makers, but those are almost > entirely unsuitable for making radios. I really wish some of these > makers could be convinced to make new signal tubes. I like my new-old > Philco, but the fact that it uses loktal tubes gives me an icky > feeling when using it. Nobody is selling AA5 loktal lineups on ebay. They aren't? eBay item 180467734678 among others. --Chuck From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Feb 16 18:45:16 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 19:45:16 -0500 Subject: Tubes (was OT: Televisions) In-Reply-To: References: <6dbe3c381002161353n2ea6e4d9i622aa9fd118011ee@mail.gmail.com> <05E14709-4CE0-4308-A921-260BA6738AE4@neurotica.com> Message-ID: > What are the people with these high-end Tube Amps using for thier AM/FM > radio's? ?Or are they simply connected to high-end turntables? They generally do not use their tuners, even if they have them. Even so, 99* percent of the tubes used in AM/FM tuners are common as dirt - no need for new production. * Without doing research, name one that fits in the 1 percent - generally not what you think. -- Will From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Tue Feb 16 18:51:08 2010 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 16:51:08 -0800 (PST) Subject: Tubes (was OT: Televisions) In-Reply-To: <4B7ACAFC.27908.17B12E8@cclist.sydex.com> References: <6dbe3c381002161353n2ea6e4d9i622aa9fd118011ee@mail.gmail.com>, <05E14709-4CE0-4308-A921-260BA6738AE4@neurotica.com>, <4B7ACAFC.27908.17B12E8@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 16 Feb 2010, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 16 Feb 2010 at 16:30, David Griffith wrote: > >> Slightly related is the subject of tubes in radios. I get a kick out >> of using tube radios. One big problem though is that there is no >> source of brand-new tubes anymore. It's all new-old-stock. Tube-amp >> enthusiasts have a ready supply of newly-manufactured tubes from a >> small variety of eastern European makers, but those are almost >> entirely unsuitable for making radios. I really wish some of these >> makers could be convinced to make new signal tubes. I like my new-old >> Philco, but the fact that it uses loktal tubes gives me an icky >> feeling when using it. Nobody is selling AA5 loktal lineups on ebay. > > They aren't? eBay item 180467734678 among others. That's a pile of random loktals. What I'm talking about is a set of the five tubes called for in an All-American-Five design. I might have to rewire this thing for regular octals. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From cclist at sydex.com Tue Feb 16 19:14:28 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 17:14:28 -0800 Subject: Tubes (was OT: Televisions) In-Reply-To: References: <6dbe3c381002161353n2ea6e4d9i622aa9fd118011ee@mail.gmail.com>, <4B7ACAFC.27908.17B12E8@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4B7AD274.26840.198410F@cclist.sydex.com> On 16 Feb 2010 at 16:51, David Griffith wrote: > That's a pile of random loktals. What I'm talking about is a set of > the five tubes called for in an All-American-Five design. I might > have to rewire this thing for regular octals. The last 9 or tubes in his selection look to be of the AA5 variety. These sellers don't know how to group them into sets. But I see 14Q7, 14B6, 14A7, 50A5 and 35Z3 in his lineup. Use the rest for batting practice. Loctals didn't enjoy a long deployment. They were probably obsolete in consumer products by 1955. --Chuck From keithvz at verizon.net Tue Feb 16 19:14:15 2010 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith M) Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 20:14:15 -0500 Subject: HP-IB, Amigo/cs80 was Re: hp 9153 floppy & disk In-Reply-To: <4B7B0F8A.8050109@jbrain.com> References: <4B7B0F8A.8050109@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <4B7B42E7.3040804@verizon.net> Jim Brain wrote: > SparkFun and similar venues make boards that bring lines out to .1" > double row headers, which means these "no-solderers" tank up on ribbon > cable and IDC female connectors to make it all fit. > > Now, I won't knock SparkFun. It's a nice market, and if you're > prototyping something, having it all soldered down to a PCB with a .1" > double row header makes it easy to move onto the rest of the project. > Later, when you've got it running, a good PCB design can be the next step. > > I think SparkFun intends it this way (use us for proof of concept, one > offs, and prototypes), and their prices reflect it (nice margins for > essentially mounting an IC on a PCB). And I think that the majority of hobbyists and beginners are doing exactly this: proof of concept, prototypes, and so on. I don't think any of them think of this way as the "perfect professional solution" or consider themselves designing real products. These aren't commercial products! But this is way to get stuff done. I give kudos to the people who are actually getting stuff done instead of simply talking about doing it "the right way." Good PCB design is hard to do for hobbyist. There is essentially no DECENT free software. Eagle is the closest, but then they have the limitation of 2" x 2"(or something) boards on the free version. So you take people NEW to PCBs and you place arbitrary limits which makes it even harder for them to succeed. You can never find a stinkin' library that contains your exact part, and so you have to create your own, but then you can't find the specs you need to create it --- don't know what size to make the pads, don't understand the variety of terminology. And none of the software is user friendly. And if you use ExpressPCB or the like, then the software is somewhat easier, but now you're forced to basically over-pay for a design that probably won't work the first time anyways. I've spent lots of time, energy, trying to design a small PCB for one of my projects, and I haven't come any closer. And as the speed of the devices increase, and the pin density increases, and through-hole devices disappear, these problems get bigger. And forget about the stinky and potentially dangerous etchants, laser printers, iron on transfers, etc etc. About solderless breadboards: for many of these projects, one isn't doing anything that requires anything better. So who cares about the tolerances involved? These aren't 250mhz designs. And the new modules encapsulate all the complex stuff and present a simple, clean, tolerant interface. I think sparkfun's idea make sense. Take immediately useful parts, keep them in stock, ship same day. Forget minimum orders, forget sample orders that arrive slow-boat-from-china, forget trying to select the "right part" from the 290384293409 models on newark, digi-key, etc. Have high quality pictures online so that you can see what darn connectors they have. Not line drawings labeled A-ZZ that never picture the exact model you need. It's clean, easy, fast. That's why I like it. Everyone understands you are paying a premium for convenience, but then I can't solder (or don't want to solder) small pitch (high pitch?) smt devices anyway. I think it's also useful to remember that there is no cost multiplier on these designs. Since 92384 of them aren't being built, only one or two, it doesn't matter if the microcontroller costs $2.50 each or $20 each. Yeah, so your design costs $50 instead of $10. Who cares? Keith From rdawson16 at hotmail.com Tue Feb 16 19:14:55 2010 From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson) Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 19:14:55 -0600 Subject: Tubes (was OT: Televisions) In-Reply-To: References: <6dbe3c381002161353n2ea6e4d9i622aa9fd118011ee@mail.gmail.com>, , <05E14709-4CE0-4308-A921-260BA6738AE4@neurotica.com>, , , <4B7ACAFC.27908.17B12E8@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: There is no shortage of tubes, boh new, and NOS. Sovitek and Svetlana make copies of all common audio tubes. No guitar player uses solid state equipment. Emic still rules the high power RF world, as there is not a semiconductor substitution for a TV / Radio transmitter final output yet. Antique Radio Supply is a great source for not only tubes, but tube design books and materials. You can find the Radiotron Designers Handbook, as well as all the RCA and GE books on the web if you look a bit. Randy KF7CJW Extra > Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 16:51:08 -0800 > From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Tubes (was OT: Televisions) > > On Tue, 16 Feb 2010, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > > On 16 Feb 2010 at 16:30, David Griffith wrote: > > > >> Slightly related is the subject of tubes in radios. I get a kick out > >> of using tube radios. One big problem though is that there is no > >> source of brand-new tubes anymore. It's all new-old-stock. Tube-amp > >> enthusiasts have a ready supply of newly-manufactured tubes from a > >> small variety of eastern European makers, but those are almost > >> entirely unsuitable for making radios. I really wish some of these > >> makers could be convinced to make new signal tubes. I like my new-old > >> Philco, but the fact that it uses loktal tubes gives me an icky > >> feeling when using it. Nobody is selling AA5 loktal lineups on ebay. > > > > They aren't? eBay item 180467734678 among others. > > That's a pile of random loktals. What I'm talking about is a set of the > five tubes called for in an All-American-Five design. I might have to > rewire this thing for regular octals. > > -- > David Griffith > dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu > > A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. > Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? > A: Top-posting. > Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail: Powerful Free email with security by Microsoft. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/201469230/direct/01/ From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Feb 16 19:19:37 2010 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 18:19:37 -0700 Subject: Tubes (was OT: Televisions) In-Reply-To: References: <6dbe3c381002161353n2ea6e4d9i622aa9fd118011ee@mail.gmail.com> <05E14709-4CE0-4308-A921-260BA6738AE4@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4B7B4429.9030303@jetnet.ab.ca> David Griffith wrote: > Slightly related is the subject of tubes in radios. I get a kick out of > using tube radios. One big problem though is that there is no source of > brand-new tubes anymore. It's all new-old-stock. Tube-amp enthusiasts > have a ready supply of newly-manufactured tubes from a small variety of > eastern European makers, but those are almost entirely unsuitable for > making radios. I really wish some of these makers could be convinced to > make new signal tubes. I like my new-old Philco, but the fact that it > uses loktal tubes gives me an icky feeling when using it. Nobody is > selling AA5 loktal lineups on ebay. > Well the REAL AA5 radios used what ever was CHEAP at the time. Tubes I have seen around, quality AM RF & IF transformers are the problem -- none around! Soon now no music - just stupid talk shows. Ben. PS. I read just recently they reduced the bandwith on BCB (am) so you could jam in more radio stations. 15KHZ (1930's) now down to 10 KHZ (1990's). From steve at radiorobots.com Tue Feb 16 19:30:55 2010 From: steve at radiorobots.com (steve stutman) Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 20:30:55 -0500 Subject: Tubes (was OT: Televisions) In-Reply-To: References: <6dbe3c381002161353n2ea6e4d9i622aa9fd118011ee@mail.gmail.com> <05E14709-4CE0-4308-A921-260BA6738AE4@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4B7B46CF.2020301@radiorobots.com> The number of NOS tubes and good used tubes is quite large. The cost to reproduce the quality of USA and EU tubes that we knew through say 1980 would be extremely high, especially given the small demand. About 15 years ago I had a long discussion with a couple of people who had been intimately involved with making the good stuff way back when. They commented that there was a fair amount of folklore involved in the manufacture. Things not easily captured in the docs. They also said that some of the component materials for some tubes were also not being made in the same fashion and that the tube performance would in their opinion, not be as good. These two had each spent over 4 decades of their lives making VTs. ------------------ This, in general is very different than semicon mfg. Have not yet heard about the feel of code executed on bit-slice being crisper than something running on CMOS; but one never knows. When I was a beginning HAM, a new small-signal tube cost about $3. A 6146B cost about $6. Cost of education and cars has risen at least 10X since then. I buy NOS small signal tubes for about $6 and 6146Ws (best version) for $14. Gear and components are in general, cheaper at present than when in production. ----------------- If you cannot find NOS, believe you will find good, tested, used tubes as good, maybe better than NOS and also better than Soviet or Asian tubes of later mfg Consider getting a decent "tube tester" like a B&K, Hickok, AVO, or TV-2, TV-7. Tells you what you've really got. It also straightforward to build a good tube tester, as long as you don't need to test every base ever made. Most commercial ones are compromises at best. GL, Steve Zane H. Healy wrote: > > > On Tue, 16 Feb 2010, David Griffith wrote: > >> Slightly related is the subject of tubes in radios. I get a kick out >> of using tube radios. One big problem though is that there is no >> source of brand-new tubes anymore. It's all new-old-stock. Tube-amp >> enthusiasts have a ready supply of newly-manufactured tubes from a >> small variety of eastern European makers, but those are almost >> entirely unsuitable for making radios. I really wish some of these >> makers could be convinced to make new signal tubes. I like my >> new-old Philco, but the fact that it uses loktal tubes gives me an >> icky feeling when using it. Nobody is selling AA5 loktal lineups on >> ebay. > > I would think that there would be a definite market for such tubes. I > know > the feeling you're talking about. I use a Stereo from about 1964 for > listening to the radio and 78's. Though I know where there is a 2nd > identical stereo I might be able to canabilize if needed. > > Zane > > From marvin at west.net Tue Feb 16 19:31:14 2010 From: marvin at west.net (Marvin Johnston) Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 17:31:14 -0800 Subject: OT: Televisions Message-ID: <4B7B46E2.50503@west.net> > Is there a good source for these things (the TVs and the tubes) > today? I imagine people threw them away mostly. If these are > difficult to find and/or maintain, I've considered trying to create a > replica console television from a newer set, maybe even something > with an LCD in it. I'd probably prefer an original though. brian You can try thrift stores although the ones out here in California tend not to take them anymore. You can also check with a TV repair place as they tend to get questions from people about what to do with their old sets. From ian_primus at yahoo.com Tue Feb 16 19:32:12 2010 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 17:32:12 -0800 (PST) Subject: OT: Televisions In-Reply-To: <6dbe3c381002161353n2ea6e4d9i622aa9fd118011ee@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <627191.16835.qm@web52607.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- On Tue, 2/16/10, Brian Lanning wrote: > The next question pertains to console televisions.? > I'd like to find (much > to my wife's dismay) a console television like the one my > parents had back > in the late 70s.? I'd like to use it to play old video > game consoles from > the 70s and 80s.? I believe these were all vacuum tube > sets though, is that > correct?? Is there a good source for these things (the > TVs and the tubes) > today?? Console TV's are easy to get. Just talk to your local flea market/junk shop, and let them know you want them. They pretty routinely throw them away. Also check craigslist, they show up for free pretty regularly. I also collect old televisions. Repairing and maintaining tube type TV's isn't that hard. The tubes are readily available and inexpensive. Primary failures are old capacitors. Tubes are actually quite reliable. The only ones that are kinda hard to keep running are the real early color sets, the ones with the round picture tubes. Convergence is touchy and the power supply sections can be problematic. BTW, if you find one of these and don't want it... let me know . If you want a daily watcher, a solid state set will probably be easier to find and easier to maintain. TV's used tubes up until the 60's and the very cheap sets of the early 70's, later ones were solid state. In the 70's, Zenith made what is quite possibly one of the best series of television sets ever - the Zenith Chromacolor II. They came in tabletop and console models. They're solid state, extremely reliable, and have a wonderful picture. Most console sets you'll find today are later ones from the 80's with digital controls, but you really will want an older one with knob tuners. And don't sit so close to the screen! You'll go blind! -Ian From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Feb 16 19:32:33 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 20:32:33 -0500 Subject: Tubes (was OT: Televisions) In-Reply-To: <4B7AD274.26840.198410F@cclist.sydex.com> References: <6dbe3c381002161353n2ea6e4d9i622aa9fd118011ee@mail.gmail.com> <4B7ACAFC.27908.17B12E8@cclist.sydex.com> <4B7AD274.26840.198410F@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > The last 9 or tubes in his selection look to be of the AA5 variety. > These sellers don't know how to group them into sets. No, these sellers know that people actually like to buy piles of semi-random tubes cheap, like this. -- Will From shoppa at trailing-edge.com Tue Feb 16 19:34:30 2010 From: shoppa at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 20:34:30 -0500 Subject: help navigating the DECUS archive Message-ID: <20100217013430.A9262BA54D7@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Sorry, I do not have 11SP42. I think I had it confused in my head with 11SP47 (GCE's Portacalc of course). Lots of the SIG symposia tapes are a kind of "best of" collection with contents repeated or improved from year to year. Is there something specific you need from 11SP42? If so it's probably on some other DECUS tape I can help you find. Tim. From ian_primus at yahoo.com Tue Feb 16 19:36:25 2010 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 17:36:25 -0800 (PST) Subject: Tubes (was OT: Televisions) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <635878.94616.qm@web52604.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- On Tue, 2/16/10, David Griffith wrote: > > > > They aren't?? eBay item 180467734678 among > others. > > That's a pile of random loktals.? What I'm talking > about is a set of the five tubes called for in an > All-American-Five design.? I might have to rewire this > thing for regular octals. But this is a box of random 30 pin memory! I need a set of RAM chips for a Macintosh Plus. No way I can use this! Tubes are tubes. Find a replacement of the same number and plug it in. Contrary to what the back of the radio says, you don't have to use only genuine Philco tubes. Also, you'd have to be one heck of an unlucky guy to burn out all five tubes in one go. -Ian From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Feb 16 19:37:43 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 20:37:43 -0500 Subject: Tubes (was OT: Televisions) In-Reply-To: References: <6dbe3c381002161353n2ea6e4d9i622aa9fd118011ee@mail.gmail.com> <05E14709-4CE0-4308-A921-260BA6738AE4@neurotica.com> <4B7ACAFC.27908.17B12E8@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: >Emic still rules the high power RF world, as there is not a semiconductor substitution for a TV / Radio transmitter final output yet. No - modern high power transmitters use redundant hot-swappable amplifier modules in quantity. A few manuafacturers may still make tube based designs, but they are getting long in the tooth. Hell, even Eimac is pretty much gone. -- Will From ajp166 at verizon.net Tue Feb 16 19:44:04 2010 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 20:44:04 -0500 Subject: Tubes (was OT: Televisions) In-Reply-To: References: <6dbe3c381002161353n2ea6e4d9i622aa9fd118011ee@mail.gmail.com> <05E14709-4CE0-4308-A921-260BA6738AE4@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4B7B49E4.7080600@verizon.net> Zane H. Healy wrote: > > > On Tue, 16 Feb 2010, David Griffith wrote: > >> Slightly related is the subject of tubes in radios. I get a kick out >> of using tube radios. One big problem though is that there is no >> source of brand-new tubes anymore. It's all new-old-stock. Tube-amp >> enthusiasts have a ready supply of newly-manufactured tubes from a >> small variety of eastern European makers, but those are almost >> entirely unsuitable for making radios. I really wish some of these >> makers could be convinced to make new signal tubes. I like my >> new-old Philco, but the fact that it uses loktal tubes gives me an >> icky feeling when using it. Nobody is selling AA5 loktal lineups on >> ebay. > > I would think that there would be a definite market for such tubes. I > know > the feeling you're talking about. I use a Stereo from about 1964 for > listening to the radio and 78's. Though I know where there is a 2nd > identical stereo I might be able to canabilize if needed. > > Zane I run old ham gear, most made not less than 35-40 years ago and I have very little trouble finding tubes for them. The fact that they are NOS is not an issue. Then again most of the low power tubes are original and just fine. I also build with tubes and have a fine collection of miniature 7/9 pin stuff, the sub-mini wire lead stuff and a selection of the "hearing aid" (1ad4 and the like) types and a bunch of 6CW4 and 6DS4 Nuvisters (very mini ceramic metal triodes). I even build radios from time to time just to use a few up. Parts like IF cans are scarce but I manage to find them. The items I find getting hard to buy are variable caps, those things are still made but the prices are scary. To me the definitive AA5 line up is the later and less costly 35W4, 50C5, 12BE6, 12BA6 and 12AVT6. I have a Sx120 and a common Firestone table radio using that lineup. Also a battery/AC RCA portable with 1r5, 1t4, 1u5, 3v4 and a selenium rectifier and it still works well. Allison From trixter at oldskool.org Tue Feb 16 20:09:55 2010 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 20:09:55 -0600 Subject: OT: Televisions In-Reply-To: <6dbe3c381002161353n2ea6e4d9i622aa9fd118011ee@mail.gmail.com> References: <6dbe3c381002161353n2ea6e4d9i622aa9fd118011ee@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B7B4FF3.2060602@oldskool.org> On 2/16/2010 3:53 PM, Brian Lanning wrote: > I have two things I'd like to ask about. First, I'll be replacing the > display for my main computer shortly. I'd like to get something larger than > 20". I'm thinking an LCD wide format thingy. I'm considering getting a > "flat" television instead of a monitor. Most of them have DVI or VGA > connectors on them. But they also include component inputs, HDMI, and maybe > some other things that can ease connection to classic computers. A > composite RCA is a must. Can anyone suggest a TV model that that's > relatively fast (like< 8ms), and has a high enough resolution that would > also be good for the classic stuff? I'm thinking 1080p would be fine for a > windows desktop. Spring for the monitor, as they are sharper. TVs also sometimes (cheaper models) don't allow you to disable the temporal noise reduction, leading to an annoying delay or lag. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From als at thangorodrim.de Tue Feb 16 20:06:27 2010 From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber) Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 03:06:27 +0100 Subject: Tubes (was OT: Televisions) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20100217020627.GA16605@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> On Tue, Feb 16, 2010 at 07:14:55PM -0600, Randy Dawson wrote: > > There is no shortage of tubes, boh new, and NOS. > > Sovitek and Svetlana make copies of all common audio tubes. No guitar player uses solid state equipment. Emic still rules the high power RF world, as there is not a semiconductor substitution for a TV / Radio transmitter final output yet. Having visited a transmission tower for Swisscom Broadcast this week, this isn't true. IIRC their setup no longer uses tubes, but is all semiconductors. But instead of one big high power tube handling 10 kW peak power by itself, they use parallel amplifiers and mix their output to get up to the required power levels. Their current setup, while handling way more channels, only uses a (rather) small fraction of the space previously used by their old tube based setups. That particular tower transmits DVB-T, DVB-H, DAB and UKW. It also has space for several GSM/UTMS BTS and a bunch of microwave links - all in 185 m of tower. A pretty impressive place. Kind regards, Alex. -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison From shoppa at trailing-edge.com Tue Feb 16 20:24:38 2010 From: shoppa at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 21:24:38 -0500 Subject: Tubes (was OT: Televisions) Message-ID: <20100217022438.EA1C3BA54D7@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> > That's a pile of random loktals. What I'm talking about is a set of the > five tubes called for in an All-American-Five design. I might have to > rewire this thing for regular octals. 14Q7, 14A7, 14B6, 50A5, 35Y4? All easily available at any of the places that have a broad stock of tubes. e.g. ESRC, Antique Electronic Supply, etc. One of my specialties is the loctal Zentih Transoceanic (8G005) which some describe as rare but really they're as common as dirt. I was surprised that many of the stocks of loctal tubes are recentish (60's, 70's) Eastern European production - I had always thought of loctals as a Philco thing of the 40's. The business sense in dealing with something that hasn't been made in decades (or indeed more than half a century) is contrary to most business rules of thunb. To have a profitable resale business as a rule of thumb you have to be able to turn your inventory over several times a year. Anything not sold after a few months has to be slashed in price or simply thrown out to make room for the new stuff. The tube resellers have to work differently - their stock is already decades old. It's not a business I'm in but I can appreciate some of the challenges. I think the business world of tubes has seen some tumultousness recently, what with the US Govt unloading huge stockpiles of many tubes and the de- nationalization of Eastern European/Russian factories, but may be stabilizing a bit. Tim. From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Feb 16 21:19:04 2010 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 21:19:04 -0600 Subject: VMware appliances In-Reply-To: <624966d61002161340u1f99ad42i480171e6d69b59fe@mail.gmail.co m> References: <624966d61002161340u1f99ad42i480171e6d69b59fe@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <201002170320.o1H3Kqrx000959@billY.EZWIND.NET> I was curious to see if anyone mentioned VMware as an emulation environment on this list. The archives show a brief conversation about it in 2002 regarding whether it could run OS/2. I've been using it for a client's servers for the past few months and it is mind-blowing. Drag-and-drop, super-fast start and stop of entire virtual servers. One of VMware's demo appliances is a DOS environment running old games. Linux large and small is a common OS in appliances, too. With the free VMware Workstation version, you can easily click-click and be running a downloaded appliance. So why aren't we using VMware appliance images to exchange pre-made, pre-set environments for running emulated OSes? - John From emu at e-bbes.com Tue Feb 16 21:20:56 2010 From: emu at e-bbes.com (e.stiebler) Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 20:20:56 -0700 Subject: HP-IB, Amigo/cs80 was Re: hp 9153 floppy & disk In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B7B6098.4000408@e-bbes.com> Tony Duell wrote: > Blimey!. How many equivalent gates is this FPGA, then? I am amazed it has > space for a CPU, 16K of 'ROM', a few K of buffer RAM, etc. Trust me, it has. I simply took the biggest one which is supported by the free tools. >> simply because I think they are more flexible. > > They are. But that doesn;t make them the right solution to every > problem.I still feel a microcontroller is more sensible for this application. If it runs then on the bog FPGA, it can be downsized and make cheaper, if there are really people looking for it. But as long as just few people are interested in it ... Anyway, my goal is the replace 2 floppies and one harddrive at the same time. So, that is a lot of bit banging in software on a uC. But let's see ;-) From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Feb 16 22:13:03 2010 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 21:13:03 -0700 Subject: Tubes (was OT: Televisions) In-Reply-To: <20100217022438.EA1C3BA54D7@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> References: <20100217022438.EA1C3BA54D7@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <4B7B6CCF.6050800@jetnet.ab.ca> Tim Shoppa wrote: > The business sense in dealing with something that hasn't been made > in decades (or indeed more than half a century) is contrary to most > business rules of thunb. To have a profitable resale business as a rule > of thumb you have to be able to turn your inventory over several times > a year. Anything not sold after a few months has to be slashed in price > or simply thrown out to make room for the new stuff. The tube resellers > have to work differently - their stock is already decades old. It's not > a business I'm in but I can appreciate some of the challenges. I think > the business world of tubes has seen some tumultousness recently, what > with the US Govt unloading huge stockpiles of many tubes and the de- > nationalization of Eastern European/Russian factories, but may be > stabilizing a bit. Well I would say since the late 1970's since that is when every thing when transistor in a big way. I have the need for the odd audio tube, since I like power audio amplifiers with no feedback. I suspect tube re-sellers make a slow profit since tubes unlike computers that need a 2-3 year market turn over. > Tim. > I got looking at a 1T4 tube the other day and it is marvel of good old mechanical engineering. Ben. From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Tue Feb 16 23:51:11 2010 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 21:51:11 -0800 Subject: OT: Televisions References: <6dbe3c381002161353n2ea6e4d9i622aa9fd118011ee@mail.gmail.com> <05E14709-4CE0-4308-A921-260BA6738AE4@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4B7B83CF.DE86F0DE@cs.ubc.ca> Dave McGuire wrote: > > On Feb 16, 2010, at 4:53 PM, Brian Lanning wrote: > > The next question pertains to console televisions. I'd like to > > find (much > > to my wife's dismay) a console television like the one my parents > > had back > > in the late 70s. I'd like to use it to play old video game > > consoles from > > the 70s and 80s. I believe these were all vacuum tube sets though, > > is that > > correct? > > It is absolutely NOT correct...They were tube up until the early > 1970s, but were made in solid-state form (except for the CRT of > course) for many years after that. I purchased such a solid-state > console TV, brand new, for a family member around 1992 or so. As I recall, there was a period of hybrid technology in colour televisions, around the late 60's, 70's. Tubes hung around in the high voltage and deflection driver sections for sometime after the lower-level signal paths had gone solid-state. ICs started making inroads in the early 70's in sections like chroma demodulation and sync separation, the reliability of colour TVs increased significantly in this period. Nonetheless, I don't relish the idea of maintaining such items. From cclist at sydex.com Wed Feb 17 00:41:10 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 22:41:10 -0800 Subject: OT: Televisions In-Reply-To: <4B7B83CF.DE86F0DE@cs.ubc.ca> References: <6dbe3c381002161353n2ea6e4d9i622aa9fd118011ee@mail.gmail.com>, <4B7B83CF.DE86F0DE@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <4B7B1F06.15233.45005E@cclist.sydex.com> On 16 Feb 2010 at 21:51, Brent Hilpert wrote: > Dave McGuire wrote: > > It is absolutely NOT correct...They were tube up until the early > > 1970s, but were made in solid-state form (except for the CRT of > > course) for many years after that. I purchased such a solid-state > > console TV, brand new, for a family member around 1992 or so. > > As I recall, there was a period of hybrid technology in colour > televisions, around the late 60's, 70's. Tubes hung around in the high > voltage and deflection driver sections for sometime after the > lower-level signal paths had gone solid-state. Before this Sony, I had a Zenith 27" console. All solid-state, with the exception of the jug. I replaced the horizontal output transistor twice on that thing. It was kind of interesting with lots of plug-in circuit board modules. Not a bad set, but I got rid of it when the plastic switches used in it began to crack. --Chuck From nigel.d.williams at gmail.com Tue Feb 16 20:17:29 2010 From: nigel.d.williams at gmail.com (Nigel Williams) Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 13:17:29 +1100 Subject: [comp.sys.dec] BASIC-Plus-2 Message-ID: <5f2019e51002161817p788c03dbje15d043fc42cd481@mail.gmail.com> On Tue Feb 16 11:56:45 CST 2010, Dave McGuire wrote: > That's it...worked like a champ. Thank you Dave, that worked for me too; applying your tips might now allow us to try some of the other layered products (C and COBOL - although I notice the C TAP has a AUTOIN.COM file for auto-install so I suppose we invoke that, much like the F77 install). I used BP2 V2.6, only because I understood that version was intended for RSTS/E V9.6 - I will try BP2 V2.7 and see if it is stable on V9.6. I am still to discover which of the TAPs of RSTS/E V9.7 are worth trying. One surprise I encountered though on rebooting RSTS/E, BASIC/BP2 throws an error: $ basic/bp2 ?Unable to attach to resident library ?Can't find file or account I fixed this by executing these two commands (found in BP2INS.CMD): $ INSTALL/LIBRARY/NOADDRESS B26SHR $ INSTALL/LIBRARY/NOADDRESS B26SH1 Then $ BASIC/BP2 works again. So it is usual RSTS/E practice to add the install/library commands to [0,1]START.COM to "permanently" add the layered product to RSTS/E? I expected the install process to do this for me. From nigel.d.williams at gmail.com Tue Feb 16 20:52:41 2010 From: nigel.d.williams at gmail.com (Nigel Williams) Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 13:52:41 +1100 Subject: help navigating the DECUS archive In-Reply-To: <5f2019e51002152357w27a563b4na688481e4e5c4e86@mail.gmail.com> References: <5f2019e51002152357w27a563b4na688481e4e5c4e86@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <5f2019e51002161852g7166459as397c623d178bacb9@mail.gmail.com> On Tue Feb 16 19:34:30 CST 2010, Tim Shoppa wrote: > If so it's probably on some other DECUS tape I can help you find. Thank you for having a look for me. I was initially trying to find this: [80,19] BASIC-PLUS-1 DECOMPILER: two programs, one data file BASIC-PLUS-1 reverse compiler I have two of the three pieces kindly sent to me by a contact on the Deltoids mailing list, I have UNCMP.BAS UNCMP2.BAS but missing the UNCMP.DAT file. I would like to find all the other SIG / RSTS DECUS material too (I see plenty on your site but wondering how complete?) Do you know if the source-code to BASIC-Plus was ever found? I read the original listings back in the late 1970s, I would enjoy browsing again. cheers, nigel. www.retroComputingTasmania.com From andy at flirble.org Wed Feb 17 02:41:05 2010 From: andy at flirble.org (Andrew Back) Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 08:41:05 +0000 Subject: VMware appliances In-Reply-To: <201002170320.o1H3Kqrx000959@billY.EZWIND.NET> References: <624966d61002161340u1f99ad42i480171e6d69b59fe@mail.gmail.com> <201002170320.o1H3Kqrx000959@billY.EZWIND.NET> Message-ID: <20100217084104.GB42212@plum.flirble.org> On (21:19 16/02/10), John Foust wrote: > > I was curious to see if anyone mentioned VMware as an emulation environment > on this list. The archives show a brief conversation about it in 2002 > regarding whether it could run OS/2. I don't see why it wouldn't run OS/2, or most other operating systems that were available on x86. I've certainly used it to run Plan 9, and ISTR that people have had NeXTSTEP and Rhapsody up and running too. I *think* the only time you are likely to run into problems is if you don't have drivers for whatever emulated network/graphics/sound it provides. That said, such virtualisation software tends to have an option to set the OS type, but I've never been sure what this does... Might just be a preset configuration of minimum RAM combined with certain emulated peripherals. > I've been using it for a client's servers for the past few months and > it is mind-blowing. Drag-and-drop, super-fast start and stop of entire > virtual servers. > > One of VMware's demo appliances is a DOS environment running old games. > Linux large and small is a common OS in appliances, too. > > With the free VMware Workstation version, you can easily click-click > and be running a downloaded appliance. You have to pay for VMWare Workstation. Tbh I much prefer Sun's VirtualBox these days. It's a bit more fiddly to get up and running in a server (headless) capacity than VMware Server. But it's free, doesn't take that much to set up headless instances, the source code is available to the community edition, and it's catching up with VMware for a lot the fancier capabilities. I think it makes a better candidate for a community of folks interested in computer conservation, if for no other reason than we have the source. > So why aren't we using VMware appliance images to exchange pre-made, > pre-set environments for running emulated OSes? One thing I don't like about appliances is that you have to trust whoever did the O/S install. I'd never use a ready made appliance for any VM connected to the Internet. They are fine for dipping your toe in the water, though. No use for an O/S that won't run on x86 - unless you have, say, a Linux appliance and SIMH or Hercules etc. But I can't see why you wouldn't run that emulator on the bare metal... Though I suppose again, that appliances with a bare minimum Linux/BSD install and configured emulator might be nice for quickly trying out a classic O/S. Cheers, Andrew -- Andrew Back a at smokebelch.org From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Feb 17 02:44:21 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 03:44:21 -0500 Subject: VMware appliances In-Reply-To: <20100217084104.GB42212@plum.flirble.org> References: <624966d61002161340u1f99ad42i480171e6d69b59fe@mail.gmail.com> <201002170320.o1H3Kqrx000959@billY.EZWIND.NET> <20100217084104.GB42212@plum.flirble.org> Message-ID: On Feb 17, 2010, at 3:41 AM, Andrew Back wrote: >> I was curious to see if anyone mentioned VMware as an emulation >> environment >> on this list. The archives show a brief conversation about it in >> 2002 >> regarding whether it could run OS/2. > > I don't see why it wouldn't run OS/2, or most other operating > systems that > were available on x86. I've had no luck at all getting OS/2 running under VMware ESXi. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From andy at flirble.org Wed Feb 17 02:57:21 2010 From: andy at flirble.org (Andrew Back) Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 08:57:21 +0000 Subject: VMware appliances In-Reply-To: References: <624966d61002161340u1f99ad42i480171e6d69b59fe@mail.gmail.com> <201002170320.o1H3Kqrx000959@billY.EZWIND.NET> <20100217084104.GB42212@plum.flirble.org> Message-ID: <20100217085721.GC42212@plum.flirble.org> On (03:44 17/02/10), Dave McGuire wrote: > On Feb 17, 2010, at 3:41 AM, Andrew Back wrote: > >>I was curious to see if anyone mentioned VMware as an emulation > >>environment > >>on this list. The archives show a brief conversation about it in > >>2002 > >>regarding whether it could run OS/2. > > > >I don't see why it wouldn't run OS/2, or most other operating > >systems that > >were available on x86. > > I've had no luck at all getting OS/2 running under VMware ESXi. Oh. Where did it fail? OS/2 didn't support the emulated graphics? Perhaps I have an oversimplified view of the issues involved in running classic x86 operating systems under modern virtualisation. Cheers, Andrew -- Andrew Back a at smokebelch.org From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Feb 17 03:04:01 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 04:04:01 -0500 Subject: VMware appliances In-Reply-To: <20100217085721.GC42212@plum.flirble.org> References: <624966d61002161340u1f99ad42i480171e6d69b59fe@mail.gmail.com> <201002170320.o1H3Kqrx000959@billY.EZWIND.NET> <20100217084104.GB42212@plum.flirble.org> <20100217085721.GC42212@plum.flirble.org> Message-ID: <11EE8EEC-EC70-4994-8706-1CEC118F9A1C@neurotica.com> On Feb 17, 2010, at 3:57 AM, Andrew Back wrote: >>>> I was curious to see if anyone mentioned VMware as an emulation >>>> environment >>>> on this list. The archives show a brief conversation about it in >>>> 2002 >>>> regarding whether it could run OS/2. >>> >>> I don't see why it wouldn't run OS/2, or most other operating >>> systems that >>> were available on x86. >> >> I've had no luck at all getting OS/2 running under VMware ESXi. > > Oh. Where did it fail? OS/2 didn't support the emulated graphics? > > Perhaps I have an oversimplified view of the issues involved in > running > classic x86 operating systems under modern virtualisation. I'm sorry, I don't recall exactly. I *think* it was something along the lines of not being able to run unless host CPU supports hardware virtualization. I am finishing up some time-critical stuff right now; I will try it again tomorrow and let you know where it blows up. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Feb 17 03:26:45 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 04:26:45 -0500 Subject: Mountain View, CA Message-ID: Is there anyone in or near Mountain View, CA who would be willing to pick up a light PC-tower-sized box and ship it to me? If so, please contact me off-list. Thanks, -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From pat at computer-refuge.org Wed Feb 17 07:24:21 2010 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 08:24:21 -0500 Subject: Tubes (was OT: Televisions) In-Reply-To: References: <6dbe3c381002161353n2ea6e4d9i622aa9fd118011ee@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <201002170824.21533.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Tuesday 16 February 2010, Randy Dawson wrote: > There is no shortage of tubes, boh new, and NOS. > > Sovitek and Svetlana make copies of all common audio tubes. No > guitar player uses solid state equipment. Emic still rules the high > power RF world, as there is not a semiconductor substitution for a > TV / Radio transmitter final output yet. This is completely false. Many guitar players use solid-state amps, and there have been solid-state high power transmitters for over 10 years. For example, I know that Purdue's WBAA-AM has been solid-state for at least 10 years since I went out and saw the transmitter, with the original (antique) tube-based transmitter sitting as backup. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From pat at computer-refuge.org Wed Feb 17 07:31:16 2010 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 08:31:16 -0500 Subject: VMware appliances In-Reply-To: <11EE8EEC-EC70-4994-8706-1CEC118F9A1C@neurotica.com> References: <624966d61002161340u1f99ad42i480171e6d69b59fe@mail.gmail.com> <20100217085721.GC42212@plum.flirble.org> <11EE8EEC-EC70-4994-8706-1CEC118F9A1C@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <201002170831.16469.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Wednesday 17 February 2010, Dave McGuire wrote: > On Feb 17, 2010, at 3:57 AM, Andrew Back wrote: > >>>> I was curious to see if anyone mentioned VMware as an emulation > >>>> environment > >>>> on this list. The archives show a brief conversation about it > >>>> in 2002 > >>>> regarding whether it could run OS/2. > >>> > >>> I don't see why it wouldn't run OS/2, or most other operating > >>> systems that > >>> were available on x86. > >> > >> I've had no luck at all getting OS/2 running under VMware ESXi. > > > > Oh. Where did it fail? OS/2 didn't support the emulated graphics? > > > > Perhaps I have an oversimplified view of the issues involved in > > running > > classic x86 operating systems under modern virtualisation. > > I'm sorry, I don't recall exactly. I *think* it was something > along the lines of not being able to run unless host CPU supports > hardware virtualization. I am finishing up some time-critical stuff > right now; I will try it again tomorrow and let you know where it > blows up. IIRC, it has to do with the way OS/2 uses segment registers/the MMU. It appears, however, that VirtualBox supports OS/2. Based on how annoying VMware has been over the past few years, and what you can do (for free) with VirtualBox, I would strongly suggest trying that instead. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From oltmansg at bellsouth.net Wed Feb 17 08:58:10 2010 From: oltmansg at bellsouth.net (geoffrey oltmans) Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 06:58:10 -0800 (PST) Subject: VMware appliances In-Reply-To: <201002170831.16469.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <624966d61002161340u1f99ad42i480171e6d69b59fe@mail.gmail.com> <20100217085721.GC42212@plum.flirble.org> <11EE8EEC-EC70-4994-8706-1CEC118F9A1C@neurotica.com> <201002170831.16469.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <877010.89483.qm@web83913.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> +1.... VirtualBox is fantastic. And the price is right! I use it on my MacBook whenever I need to VPN into work. ________________________________ From: Patrick Finnegan To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Sent: Wed, February 17, 2010 7:31:16 AM Subject: Re: VMware appliances On Wednesday 17 February 2010, Dave McGuire wrote: > On Feb 17, 2010, at 3:57 AM, Andrew Back wrote: > >>>> I was curious to see if anyone mentioned VMware as an emulation > >>>> environment > >>>> on this list. The archives show a brief conversation about it > >>>> in 2002 > >>>> regarding whether it could run OS/2. > >>> > >>> I don't see why it wouldn't run OS/2, or most other operating > >>> systems that > >>> were available on x86. > >> > >> I've had no luck at all getting OS/2 running under VMware ESXi. > > > > Oh. Where did it fail? OS/2 didn't support the emulated graphics? > > > > Perhaps I have an oversimplified view of the issues involved in > > running > > classic x86 operating systems under modern virtualisation. > > I'm sorry, I don't recall exactly. I *think* it was something > along the lines of not being able to run unless host CPU supports > hardware virtualization. I am finishing up some time-critical stuff > right now; I will try it again tomorrow and let you know where it > blows up. IIRC, it has to do with the way OS/2 uses segment registers/the MMU. It appears, however, that VirtualBox supports OS/2. Based on how annoying VMware has been over the past few years, and what you can do (for free) with VirtualBox, I would strongly suggest trying that instead. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From alhartman at yahoo.com Wed Feb 17 10:10:43 2010 From: alhartman at yahoo.com (Al Hartman) Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 08:10:43 -0800 (PST) Subject: CP/M for LNW-80 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <729126.70825.qm@web55308.mail.re4.yahoo.com> I have an LNW-80 Model I. If my memory is correct, this unit will run CP/M. Can anyone confirm that? And, if so... Can someone point me to where I can get disk images? Thanks! Al Keansburg, NJ From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Wed Feb 17 10:18:13 2010 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 17:18:13 +0100 (CET) Subject: VMware appliances In-Reply-To: <877010.89483.qm@web83913.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <624966d61002161340u1f99ad42i480171e6d69b59fe@mail.gmail.com> <20100217085721.GC42212@plum.flirble.org> <11EE8EEC-EC70-4994-8706-1CEC118F9A1C@neurotica.com> <201002170831.16469.pat@computer-refuge.org> <877010.89483.qm@web83913.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 17 Feb 2010, geoffrey oltmans wrote: > +1.... VirtualBox is fantastic. And the price is right! I use it on my And how do I, for example, access my SCSI tape drive? Or my SCSI scanner? Short answer: not at all :-( Christian From oltmansg at bellsouth.net Wed Feb 17 10:20:12 2010 From: oltmansg at bellsouth.net (geoffrey oltmans) Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 08:20:12 -0800 (PST) Subject: VMware appliances In-Reply-To: References: <624966d61002161340u1f99ad42i480171e6d69b59fe@mail.gmail.com> <20100217085721.GC42212@plum.flirble.org> <11EE8EEC-EC70-4994-8706-1CEC118F9A1C@neurotica.com> <201002170831.16469.pat@computer-refuge.org> <877010.89483.qm@web83913.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <732890.43036.qm@web83916.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Really? I thought it allowed some access to real hardware. I haven't needed it personally, so I wouldn't know. ________________________________ From: Christian Corti To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Sent: Wed, February 17, 2010 10:18:13 AM Subject: Re: VMware appliances On Wed, 17 Feb 2010, geoffrey oltmans wrote: > +1.... VirtualBox is fantastic. And the price is right! I use it on my And how do I, for example, access my SCSI tape drive? Or my SCSI scanner? Short answer: not at all :-( Christian From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Wed Feb 17 11:24:16 2010 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 11:24:16 -0600 Subject: OT: Televisions In-Reply-To: <6dbe3c381002161353n2ea6e4d9i622aa9fd118011ee@mail.gmail.com> References: <6dbe3c381002161353n2ea6e4d9i622aa9fd118011ee@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B7C2640.7060107@gmail.com> Brian Lanning wrote: > The next question pertains to console televisions. I'd like to find (much > to my wife's dismay) a console television like the one my parents had back > in the late 70s. I'd like to use it to play old video game consoles from > the 70s and 80s. I believe these were all vacuum tube sets though, is that > correct? Is there a good source for these things (the TVs and the tubes) > today? Seems like there's always at least one sitting there whenever I do a run to the local dump (about once a month) - not sure what their rules are on taking them away / buying them, though. Never see any vintage computers, sadly :-( (although maybe that's a good thing if they don't allow them to be taken away once they're on the premises!) cheers Jules From ray at arachelian.com Wed Feb 17 11:38:16 2010 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 12:38:16 -0500 Subject: VMware appliances In-Reply-To: <20100217084104.GB42212@plum.flirble.org> References: <624966d61002161340u1f99ad42i480171e6d69b59fe@mail.gmail.com> <201002170320.o1H3Kqrx000959@billY.EZWIND.NET> <20100217084104.GB42212@plum.flirble.org> Message-ID: <4B7C2988.5070109@arachelian.com> Andrew Back wrote: > I don't see why it wouldn't run OS/2, I believe the original VMWare used CPU Ring-3 to run the guest OS, and did a trap+emulate of the supervisor (ring 0) opcodes. However, OS/2 used ring 3 for itself, therefore it wouldn't work. It wasn't the I/O emulation that caused it to fail. Not sure whether modern VMWare still uses ring3, and whether OS/2 would work under VMWare when on Intel/AMD chips that support virtualization. > You have to pay for VMWare Workstation. Tbh I much prefer Sun's VirtualBox > these days. VMWare Player is free. I've played with it once, it was ok, but too limited. VMWare Server is free, and runs much better than Player. I've used it for about 2 years for fun, and it worked very nicely for me. Though, sorry, haven't used it for OS/2. I didn't have to run it headless, but I did run VMWare Server 1.x over 2.x because the 2.x versions I've tried wanted the console to be launched inside a web browser, and I wanted it to be standalone. Everything worked just fine - network, USB, sound, video. No issues other than the file format was different, so when I wanted to move the vmware session to my Macbook which has VMWare Fusion, it had to convert the guest to its own format, which then couldn't be returned back to VMWare Server. Other than that, it was all peaches. ESXi is also free, but requires dedicated hardware and doesn't appear to allow sound playback across the network, though there may be ways around this depending on the guest OS. I've played with it a while and I do like it, but for me (personal use, not data center use), it's overkill. They are of course free as in beer, not as in speech. openvirtualbox is a bit more open source, but haven't played with it as VMWare Server and VMWare Fusion did the trick for my needs. >> So why aren't we using VMware appliance images to exchange pre-made, >> pre-set environments for running emulated OSes? >> > > One thing I don't like about appliances is that you have to trust whoever > did the O/S install. I'd never use a ready made appliance for any VM > connected to the Internet. They are fine for dipping your toe in the water, > though. > Another thing is that virtualization is not emulation. :-) Except for the I/O layer and supervisor instructions, no emulation is involved. I'd be more worried about compatibility with your machine. Sometimes machines created on one chip will not work on another (if the guest OS sees a certain CPU and turns on features for that CPU and doesn't notice it was moved, you'll have issues.) The other problem I've mentioned previously. Different versions of VMWare use different file formats for their VMs. If you create a VM in VMWare Workstation, it probably won't work under VMWare Server 1.0, though it probably will work under VMWare Fusion. If you create a VM on a file system that supports 4GB+ files and you don't select the split into 2GB files, it may not work if your host's OS can't handle files larger than 2GB. So care must be taken to craft the appliances properly. Oh, that, and some guest OS's are commercial, therefore protected by copyright, therefore, it wouldn't be legal to distribute. No such issues with Linux VMs for example (assuming you stick to the free ones, and not something like RHEL.) I'd worry less about trust, though, there may exist exploits allowing something running in a guest to escape, as long as you don't allow the VM access to the network card, and don't give it access to executable files via the shared folders option, and don't give it access to devices such as USB drives, there's not too much it can do. :) YMMV, use care, etc. From emu at e-bbes.com Wed Feb 17 11:39:26 2010 From: emu at e-bbes.com (e.stiebler) Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 10:39:26 -0700 Subject: Long persistence tube for vt100 Message-ID: <4B7C29CE.5070207@e-bbes.com> Hi all, any source for a replacement tube for a vt100 type terminal ? Specially, a long persistence phosphor type (vt640, retro graphics) ? Cheers From ian_primus at yahoo.com Wed Feb 17 11:54:26 2010 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 09:54:26 -0800 (PST) Subject: Long persistence tube for vt100 In-Reply-To: <4B7C29CE.5070207@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: <336139.84566.qm@web52601.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- On Wed, 2/17/10, e.stiebler wrote: > From: e.stiebler > Subject: Long persistence tube for vt100 > To: "On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Date: Wednesday, February 17, 2010, 12:39 PM > Hi all, > any source for a replacement tube for a vt100 type terminal > ? > Specially, a long persistence phosphor type (vt640, retro > graphics) ? The picture tube from an IBM 5151 display ought to work. That's about as long a persistence as they get... -Ian From jfoust at threedee.com Wed Feb 17 11:55:22 2010 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 11:55:22 -0600 Subject: VMware appliances In-Reply-To: <4B7C2988.5070109@arachelian.com> References: <624966d61002161340u1f99ad42i480171e6d69b59fe@mail.gmail.com> <201002170320.o1H3Kqrx000959@billY.EZWIND.NET> <20100217084104.GB42212@plum.flirble.org> <4B7C2988.5070109@arachelian.com> Message-ID: <201002171800.o1HI0WMN053338@billY.EZWIND.NET> At 11:38 AM 2/17/2010, Ray Arachelian wrote: >VMWare Player is free. I've played with it once, it was ok, but too limited. Yes, I confused Player and Workstation. >Everything worked just fine - network, USB, sound, video. No issues >other than the file format was different, There's also the VMware Converter, which aids in converting physical devices to virtual appliances. It'll accept machine images in many formats, and for conversion of Windows and Linux, there's a tool that'll do it while "live". > Different versions of VMWare use different file formats for >their VMs. If you create a VM in VMWare Workstation, it probably won't >work under VMWare Server 1.0, though it probably will work under VMWare >Fusion. And Converter can translate between those, too. >Oh, that, and some guest OS's are commercial, therefore protected by >copyright, therefore, it wouldn't be legal to distribute. No such >issues with Linux VMs for example (assuming you stick to the free ones, >and not something like RHEL.) But for emulators that work under FreeDOS or Linux, it would be a way to distribute a pre-packaged, ready-to-go appliance file that would let you tinker with an emulator without spending the time to learn how to configure it (which is ancillary to the objective, no?). Yes, it wouldn't be legal to redistribute an emulator that was Windows-based, unless of course in ran under WINE under Linux. For the Windows-based emulators, I suspect we'll soon have a file format that bundles all of an application and its data into a redistributable single-file format. You can see glimpses of this already in the enterprise tools that let you run an app this way, without actually installing it into your registry and hard drive. Maybe it'll be a way from all this Windows ugliness. As for real devices connecting to emulators and VMs, it is true that the workstation environments let you connect to that machine's USB or other devices, but ESXi doesn't even talk to the USB on the host computer (although it's a bug). Instead, people are using USB to Ethernet adapters that speak TCP/IP with a driver running inside the VM. Good commentary overall, Ray. - John From feedle at feedle.net Wed Feb 17 12:20:40 2010 From: feedle at feedle.net (feedle) Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 10:20:40 -0800 Subject: CP/M for LNW-80 In-Reply-To: <729126.70825.qm@web55308.mail.re4.yahoo.com> References: <729126.70825.qm@web55308.mail.re4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4B7C3378.8070508@feedle.net> Al Hartman wrote: > I have an LNW-80 Model I. If my memory is correct, this unit will run CP/M. > > Can anyone confirm that? IIRC, CP/M support was an "option" on the LNW-80 Model I. http://www.xs4all.nl/~fjkraan/comp/lnw/soft.html has the images of the software. From brain at jbrain.com Wed Feb 17 12:44:47 2010 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 12:44:47 -0600 Subject: VMware appliances In-Reply-To: <4B7C2988.5070109@arachelian.com> References: <624966d61002161340u1f99ad42i480171e6d69b59fe@mail.gmail.com> <201002170320.o1H3Kqrx000959@billY.EZWIND.NET> <20100217084104.GB42212@plum.flirble.org> <4B7C2988.5070109@arachelian.com> Message-ID: <4B7C391F.3070907@jbrain.com> On 2/17/2010 11:38 AM, Ray Arachelian wrote: > > >> You have to pay for VMWare Workstation. Tbh I much prefer Sun's VirtualBox >> these days. >> > VMWare Player is free. I've played with it once, it was ok, but too > limited. > Dunno, it allows access to lots of real devices on the unit, and it's self contained. > VMWare Server is free, and runs much better than Player. I've used it > for about 2 years for fun, and it worked very nicely for me. Though, > sorry, haven't used it for OS/2. > I didn't have to run it headless, but I did run VMWare Server 1.x over > 2.x because the 2.x versions I've tried wanted the console to be > launched inside a web browser, and I wanted it to be standalone. > Everything worked just fine - network, USB, sound, video. No issues > other than the file format was different, so when I wanted to move the > vmware session to my Macbook which has VMWare Fusion, it had to convert > the guest to its own format, which then couldn't be returned back to > VMWare Server. Other than that, it was all peaches. > I'll also put in a good word for VMWare Server. It's awesome being able to create, launch, and run an OS over the Internet. Jim From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Feb 17 12:47:01 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 13:47:01 -0500 Subject: VMware appliances In-Reply-To: <201002170831.16469.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <624966d61002161340u1f99ad42i480171e6d69b59fe@mail.gmail.com> <20100217085721.GC42212@plum.flirble.org> <11EE8EEC-EC70-4994-8706-1CEC118F9A1C@neurotica.com> <201002170831.16469.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <1E8C57EC-9197-4849-8DB1-BCB5EB36DCD5@neurotica.com> On Feb 17, 2010, at 8:31 AM, Patrick Finnegan wrote: >>>>>> I was curious to see if anyone mentioned VMware as an emulation >>>>>> environment >>>>>> on this list. The archives show a brief conversation about it >>>>>> in 2002 >>>>>> regarding whether it could run OS/2. >>>>> >>>>> I don't see why it wouldn't run OS/2, or most other operating >>>>> systems that >>>>> were available on x86. >>>> >>>> I've had no luck at all getting OS/2 running under VMware ESXi. >>> >>> Oh. Where did it fail? OS/2 didn't support the emulated graphics? >>> >>> Perhaps I have an oversimplified view of the issues involved in >>> running >>> classic x86 operating systems under modern virtualisation. >> >> I'm sorry, I don't recall exactly. I *think* it was something >> along the lines of not being able to run unless host CPU supports >> hardware virtualization. I am finishing up some time-critical stuff >> right now; I will try it again tomorrow and let you know where it >> blows up. > > IIRC, it has to do with the way OS/2 uses segment registers/the > MMU. It > appears, however, that VirtualBox supports OS/2. Based on how > annoying > VMware has been over the past few years, and what you can do (for > free) > with VirtualBox, I would strongly suggest trying that instead. Yeah. I'm already running VMware though, as VirtualBox won't run SCO UNIX, which I need to have available to support clients. I (myself) just wanted to mess with OS/2 a bit to familiarize myself with it before trying to get it running on the service processor of my Multiprise 3000. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From brain at jbrain.com Wed Feb 17 12:47:54 2010 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 12:47:54 -0600 Subject: VMware appliances In-Reply-To: <201002171800.o1HI0WMN053338@billY.EZWIND.NET> References: <624966d61002161340u1f99ad42i480171e6d69b59fe@mail.gmail.com> <201002170320.o1H3Kqrx000959@billY.EZWIND.NET> <20100217084104.GB42212@plum.flirble.org> <4B7C2988.5070109@arachelian.com> <201002171800.o1HI0WMN053338@billY.EZWIND.NET> Message-ID: <4B7C39DA.6000004@jbrain.com> On 2/17/2010 11:55 AM, John Foust wrote: > > For the Windows-based emulators, I suspect we'll soon have a file format > that bundles all of an application and its data into a redistributable > single-file format. You can see glimpses of this already in the > enterprise tools that let you run an app this way, without actually > installing it into your registry and hard drive. Maybe it'll be a > way from all this Windows ugliness. > This is my primary reason for using VMWare. My personal laptop is a workhorse and I can ill afford to be without it. When I am suspicious of an application (not just for uncertainty on intention, but some older apps for design work are bad WIndows apps), I'll load it into a VM. If it works but trashes the OS, I'm not out a lot. Jim From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Feb 17 12:52:38 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 13:52:38 -0500 Subject: VMware appliances In-Reply-To: <4B7C2988.5070109@arachelian.com> References: <624966d61002161340u1f99ad42i480171e6d69b59fe@mail.gmail.com> <201002170320.o1H3Kqrx000959@billY.EZWIND.NET> <20100217084104.GB42212@plum.flirble.org> <4B7C2988.5070109@arachelian.com> Message-ID: <1D5AB8EB-2D16-44B8-A2D1-41C920234874@neurotica.com> On Feb 17, 2010, at 12:38 PM, Ray Arachelian wrote: > I didn't have to run it headless, but I did run VMWare Server 1.x over > 2.x because the 2.x versions I've tried wanted the console to be > launched inside a web browser, and I wanted it to be standalone. You have to launch the console from the browser interface in 2.x, but then you can close the browser and the console window will stick around. One should be able to glean the appropriate command to start up that console window without too much trouble. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Feb 17 12:54:36 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 13:54:36 -0500 Subject: VMware appliances In-Reply-To: <201002171800.o1HI0WMN053338@billY.EZWIND.NET> References: <624966d61002161340u1f99ad42i480171e6d69b59fe@mail.gmail.com> <201002170320.o1H3Kqrx000959@billY.EZWIND.NET> <20100217084104.GB42212@plum.flirble.org> <4B7C2988.5070109@arachelian.com> <201002171800.o1HI0WMN053338@billY.EZWIND.NET> Message-ID: <6250F885-FAAD-410F-9AEF-03653E44EECF@neurotica.com> On Feb 17, 2010, at 12:55 PM, John Foust wrote: > As for real devices connecting to emulators and VMs, it is true > that the workstation environments let you connect to that machine's > USB or other devices, but ESXi doesn't even talk to the USB on the > host computer (although it's a bug). Instead, people are using > USB to Ethernet adapters that speak TCP/IP with a driver running > inside the VM. ESXi does real-device passthrough nicely for SCSI host adapters...I set that up just last night on a customer's machine; a tape drive is now accessible from a VM. I've not needed USB yet...what release(s) does that bug affect, do you know offhand? Is there any workaround to allow USB device access? -Dave > -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mkr at trs-80.org Wed Feb 17 12:53:44 2010 From: mkr at trs-80.org (Matthew Reed) Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 13:53:44 -0500 Subject: CP/M for LNW-80 In-Reply-To: <729126.70825.qm@web55308.mail.re4.yahoo.com> References: <729126.70825.qm@web55308.mail.re4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4B7C3B38.1080802@trs-80.org> Al Hartman wrote: > I have an LNW-80 Model I. If my memory is correct, this unit will run CP/M. > > Can anyone confirm that? The LNW Model 2 was the first LNW that could run CP/M out of the box. A stock LNW Model 1 required a hardware modification before it could run CP/M. -- Matthew Reed http://www.trs-80.org http://www.trs-80emulators.com mkr at trs-80.org From jfoust at threedee.com Wed Feb 17 12:59:25 2010 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 12:59:25 -0600 Subject: VMware appliances In-Reply-To: <6250F885-FAAD-410F-9AEF-03653E44EECF@neurotica.com> References: <624966d61002161340u1f99ad42i480171e6d69b59fe@mail.gmail.com> <201002170320.o1H3Kqrx000959@billY.EZWIND.NET> <20100217084104.GB42212@plum.flirble.org> <4B7C2988.5070109@arachelian.com> <201002171800.o1HI0WMN053338@billY.EZWIND.NET> <6250F885-FAAD-410F-9AEF-03653E44EECF@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <201002171859.o1HIxeT1056985@billY.EZWIND.NET> At 12:54 PM 2/17/2010, Dave McGuire wrote: > ESXi does real-device passthrough nicely for SCSI host >adapters...I set that up just last night on a customer's machine; a >tape drive is now accessible from a VM. I've not needed USB >yet...what release(s) does that bug affect, do you know offhand? Is >there any workaround to allow USB device access? It was promised in ESXi 4.0, I believe, about six months ago when it was released, but it didn't work. There's an obscure workaround that works on some (three-letter acronym) USB hardware but at the expense of being able to snapshot or suspend, I think. - John From keithvz at verizon.net Wed Feb 17 13:00:26 2010 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith) Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 14:00:26 -0500 Subject: VMware appliances In-Reply-To: <4B7C39DA.6000004@jbrain.com> References: <624966d61002161340u1f99ad42i480171e6d69b59fe@mail.gmail.com> <201002170320.o1H3Kqrx000959@billY.EZWIND.NET> <20100217084104.GB42212@plum.flirble.org> <4B7C2988.5070109@arachelian.com> <201002171800.o1HI0WMN053338@billY.EZWIND.NET> <4B7C39DA.6000004@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <4B7C3CCA.6090605@verizon.net> Jim Brain wrote: > On 2/17/2010 11:55 AM, John Foust wrote: >> >> For the Windows-based emulators, I suspect we'll soon have a file format >> that bundles all of an application and its data into a redistributable >> single-file format. You can see glimpses of this already in the >> enterprise tools that let you run an app this way, without actually >> installing it into your registry and hard drive. Maybe it'll be a >> way from all this Windows ugliness. >> > This is my primary reason for using VMWare. My personal laptop is a > workhorse and I can ill afford to be without it. When I am suspicious > of an application (not just for uncertainty on intention, but some older > apps for design work are bad WIndows apps), I'll load it into a VM. If > it works but trashes the OS, I'm not out a lot. > > Jim > I forget who recommended it here, but that Symantec Application virtualization would be perfect for that type thing. (but isn't supported under 64-bit OS's) http://www.symantec.com/business/endpoint-virtualization-suite It is trialware, but think it's unlimited, so basically free. I also use VMware (workstation), because my Xilinx FPGA ISE software suite isn't supported on Vista 64-bit. This may have recently changed, but I have an XP 32-bit VM installed, and then run it inside that. It's also nice to have things separately installed --- it doesn't affect anything and nothing affects it. There can be minor USB driver issues, especially if the host does not have a device driver for a particular piece of hardware. This changed at one point, but lack of a driver on the host didn't necessarily preclude using it successfully under the VM itself. I tried virtualbox, but had compatibility problems with it and other linux OS's, and had an XP installation blue-screen. Virtualbox has some nice features like side by side host and VM applications on the same desktop. But overall, the lack of compatibility made me uninstall it. VMware has been stable, reliable, and has nice features for smart and automatic installation of certain types of windows VMs. So it makes installing Windows VMs really quick and easy --- bypassing most of the normal setup screens. Keith From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Feb 17 13:04:57 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 14:04:57 -0500 Subject: VMware appliances In-Reply-To: <201002171859.o1HIxeT1056985@billY.EZWIND.NET> References: <624966d61002161340u1f99ad42i480171e6d69b59fe@mail.gmail.com> <201002170320.o1H3Kqrx000959@billY.EZWIND.NET> <20100217084104.GB42212@plum.flirble.org> <4B7C2988.5070109@arachelian.com> <201002171800.o1HI0WMN053338@billY.EZWIND.NET> <6250F885-FAAD-410F-9AEF-03653E44EECF@neurotica.com> <201002171859.o1HIxeT1056985@billY.EZWIND.NET> Message-ID: <8D4E3DBD-B362-4318-B72E-249AF81B17E6@neurotica.com> On Feb 17, 2010, at 1:59 PM, John Foust wrote: >> ESXi does real-device passthrough nicely for SCSI host >> adapters...I set that up just last night on a customer's machine; a >> tape drive is now accessible from a VM. I've not needed USB >> yet...what release(s) does that bug affect, do you know offhand? Is >> there any workaround to allow USB device access? > > It was promised in ESXi 4.0, I believe, about six months ago when > it was released, but it didn't work. There's an obscure workaround > that works on some (three-letter acronym) USB hardware but at the > expense of being able to snapshot or suspend, I think. Crap. I'm going to need USB support in ESXi v3.5 soon. I'm stuck at that release at this particular site because the host is a 32-bit machine. -Dave > -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cclist at sydex.com Wed Feb 17 13:11:11 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 11:11:11 -0800 Subject: OT: Televisions In-Reply-To: <4B7C2640.7060107@gmail.com> References: <6dbe3c381002161353n2ea6e4d9i622aa9fd118011ee@mail.gmail.com>, <4B7C2640.7060107@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B7BCECF.30285.D23C30@cclist.sydex.com> On 17 Feb 2010 at 11:24, Jules Richardson wrote: > Brian Lanning wrote: > > The next question pertains to console televisions. I'd like to find > > (much to my wife's dismay) a console television like the one my > > parents had back in the late 70s. I'd like to use it to play old > > video game consoles from the 70s and 80s. I believe these were all > > vacuum tube sets though, is that correct? Is there a good source > > for these things (the TVs and the tubes) today? There's someone trying to give away a nice 27" RCA console (with the turntable-style mounting) on the local CL. They're not uncommon, just big and heavy--a lot of particle board went into those slab- sided cabinets. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Wed Feb 17 13:14:11 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 11:14:11 -0800 Subject: Long persistence tube for vt100 In-Reply-To: <336139.84566.qm@web52601.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <4B7C29CE.5070207@e-bbes.com>, <336139.84566.qm@web52601.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4B7BCF83.9127.D4FB50@cclist.sydex.com> On 17 Feb 2010 at 9:54, Mr Ian Primus wrote: > The picture tube from an IBM 5151 display ought to work. That's about > as long a persistence as they get... Not even by a long shot. The yellow/orange phosphors used on some radar equipment could take many seconds to decay. --Chuck From brianlanning at gmail.com Wed Feb 17 13:18:30 2010 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 13:18:30 -0600 Subject: OT: Televisions In-Reply-To: <4B7BCECF.30285.D23C30@cclist.sydex.com> References: <6dbe3c381002161353n2ea6e4d9i622aa9fd118011ee@mail.gmail.com> <4B7C2640.7060107@gmail.com> <4B7BCECF.30285.D23C30@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <6dbe3c381002171118l58125650v18e0dfca1d20f8ea@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Feb 17, 2010 at 1:11 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > There's someone trying to give away a nice 27" RCA console (with the > turntable-style mounting) on the local CL. They're not uncommon, > just big and heavy--a lot of particle board went into those slab- > sided cabinets. > Yeah, I hate that stuff. When you try to cut it on a table saw, it tries to get even with you. I looked at craigs list last night and there is one out there. It looks way too sleek and futuristic though. ;-) I'll keep watching. brian From ian_primus at yahoo.com Wed Feb 17 13:36:05 2010 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 11:36:05 -0800 (PST) Subject: Long persistence tube for vt100 In-Reply-To: <4B7BCF83.9127.D4FB50@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <127926.47565.qm@web52608.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- On Wed, 2/17/10, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > The picture tube from an IBM 5151 display ought to > work. That's about > > as long a persistence as they get... > > Not even by a long shot. The yellow/orange phosphors > used on some > radar equipment could take many seconds to decay. This is true. I'd forgotten about those. But, I'm pretty sure tubes such as those were never used in computer displays. -Ian From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Feb 17 12:27:18 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 18:27:18 +0000 (GMT) Subject: VAX graphics In-Reply-To: <4B7AEFFB.8020603@softjar.se> from "Johnny Billquist" at Feb 16, 10 08:20:27 pm Message-ID: > I've never seen, nor heard of anything but white phosphor VT100s. Many years ago I saw a VT100 with what was cal;ed a 'retrographics board' fitted. This was a third-party add-on that connected to various connectors on the normal VT100 logic board and which gave (for the time) high resolution graphics. (No, I don't mean a VT105 board, this thing allowed to you to set or clear each pixel). Anyway, I seem to rememeb this unit had a green phosphor CRT in it. It was almost caetainly not DEC-original, it was probably changed when the retrographics boar dwas fitted. As I've said before, these monochrome CRTs are pretty generic. And I rember seeing adverts in Byte for replacement green or amber phospor CRTs for various machines. It's very possible that some VT100s were modified. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Feb 17 12:31:10 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 18:31:10 +0000 (GMT) Subject: HP-IB, Amigo/cs80 was Re: hp 9153 floppy & disk In-Reply-To: <4B7B0F8A.8050109@jbrain.com> from "Jim Brain" at Feb 16, 10 03:35:06 pm Message-ID: > > On 2/16/2010 1:43 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > I am missing something here. The purpose of a microcontroller is to > > control something. You have to build an interface between the > > microcontroller and whatever it is goign to control. And like it or not, > > building that interface is going to involve some soldering. > > > I think that last part is the part you're missing. Many people will do > anything to not solder, so they will use accessories with pigtails, > wirenuts and spade connectors, or crimp connectors or IDC connectors > with ribbon cable split out to individual wires, with wirenuts to other > wires, etc. I am sure I'm missing some of the non-solder-based > connection methods, but you get the idea. What I don;t get is _why_ there's this aversion to soldering. It is not difficult to solder thsi sort of thing. Anyone with the manual dexterity to fit IDC connectors, split and stip ribbon cable, etc, could do it. The equipment required is not hard to get or expensive (a good soldering iron costs less than many evaluation boards, it costs a lot less than the stuff you need to do microcomputer development). What is the problem? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Feb 17 12:58:48 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 18:58:48 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Tubes (was OT: Televisions) In-Reply-To: from "William Donzelli" at Feb 16, 10 07:45:16 pm Message-ID: > > > What are the people with these high-end Tube Amps using for thier AM/FM > > radio's? =A0Or are they simply connected to high-end turntables? > > They generally do not use their tuners, even if they have them. Even > so, 99* percent of the tubes used in AM/FM tuners are common as dirt - > no need for new production. > > * Without doing research, name one that fits in the 1 percent - > generally not what you think. Some of the tuning indicators (Magic Eyes, Eye Tubes) are getting harder to find now. Was that beam-=switching pentode ever used in FM Tuners in the Ststes (it never was in the UK). It's very hard to find over here.but that might be a country thing. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Feb 17 12:49:38 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 18:49:38 +0000 (GMT) Subject: HP-IB, Amigo/cs80 was Re: hp 9153 floppy & disk In-Reply-To: <4affc5e1002161342o62eeecc1w5a1f1e3fc46a748@mail.gmail.com> from "Joachim Thiemann" at Feb 16, 10 04:42:47 pm Message-ID: > Tony, I think you are being elitist, but not in an evil, dismissive Well, I have no desire to exclude anybody from learning about electronics, that is for sure. > way but more in the (Monty Python-esque) "in MY days we had to walk > uphill both ways in 10 ft snow-drifts" kind of way. :-) I can totally > see where you are coming from, but think you are a bit too dismissive > of the "kids". I will just argue that the kids will be alright, in > the end. Hmmm.. When I was a kid I had various educational electronics kits. The ones I liked the best, and the ones I learnt the most from were the Philips EE series. OK, you didn't have to solder anything, but you did get to handle real components, not little modules. And you built things like Wein bridge oscillators, superhet radios, and the like. I saw a modern electornics kit the other day in a shop. It proudly proclaimed 'build .. .n FM radio...' Upon investigatio it appears that there was an 'FM Radio Module' in the kit. All you had to do was connect up the battery, a couple of switches and a speaker. That's not 'building an FM radio'. Said Philips EE kits also had you making an FM radio. Using an FET, a few bipolar transistors, a varicap diode, and so on. > > Yes, breadboards are horrible, electrically. But everyone has to > start learning electronics somewhere and somehow, and solderless > breadboards allow students to try things quickly, blow stuff up, burn OK, I;'ve been doing this for 30 years or more, but I find it a lot quicker to solder somethign up that to use one of those breadboards. And it's not hard to desolder things, make changes, experiment. > transistors etc, etc - I still have a board somewhere with blackened > traces :-) It is the best way to teach. If you force students to > design, check and solder even simple low-speed circuits, they will > loose interest quickly. The main problem is that those breadboard are terrible. It's not the clock speed that matters, it's the swtiching time of the IC. Most modern ICs have ouptus that switch so fast that when you combine them with the stray capacitances on the breadboard and the relatively high impedance power connections, you get power and ground lines bouncing all over the place. Without a _good_ 'scope it's impossible to know why your circuit doesn't work. If you stick to 4000 series CMOS you'll be alright, but modern 74xxx familes are pushing it. Really pushing it. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Feb 17 13:27:53 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 19:27:53 +0000 (GMT) Subject: HP-IB, Amigo/cs80 was Re: hp 9153 floppy & disk In-Reply-To: <4B7B42E7.3040804@verizon.net> from "Keith M" at Feb 16, 10 08:14:15 pm Message-ID: > Good PCB design is hard to do for hobbyist. There is essentially no > DECENT free software. Eagle is the closest, but then they have the > limitation of 2" x 2"(or something) boards on the free version. So you > take people NEW to PCBs and you place arbitrary limits which makes it > even harder for them to succeed. Why on earth do you need to make a special PCB for a one-off prototype or experimental circuit? If you use through-hole components, DIP, or PLCC ICs (in their sockets), or mount SOICs and PQFPs or adapter boards, you can hand-wire the circuit on stripboard or sqaure pad board in less time than it takes to design the PCB. Of course if you want to make many copies of the design a PCB is very useful. -tony From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Feb 17 13:55:21 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 14:55:21 -0500 Subject: OT: Televisions In-Reply-To: <6dbe3c381002171118l58125650v18e0dfca1d20f8ea@mail.gmail.com> References: <6dbe3c381002161353n2ea6e4d9i622aa9fd118011ee@mail.gmail.com> <4B7C2640.7060107@gmail.com> <4B7BCECF.30285.D23C30@cclist.sydex.com> <6dbe3c381002171118l58125650v18e0dfca1d20f8ea@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 2/17/10, Brian Lanning wrote: > I looked at craigs list last night and there is one out there. It looks way > too sleek and futuristic though. ;-) I'll keep watching. I think I know the kind you are looking for (twice as wide as the tube, left and right "wing speakers", cloth grille, decorative wood features, sometimes with a radio or turntable inside, too), but I haven't seen one of those at the curb in Columbus in many years - people dumped those for black plastic WalMart specials a while back. It would certainly be an interesting thing to showcase retro games on, especially the Atari 2600, but they do have a large footprint. I kinda wish I'd picked up a 19" B&W when those were $10 at the Thrift Stores - I have plenty of pre-color gaming machines that would be perfect on the crispness of a maskless B&W tube. -ethan From brianlanning at gmail.com Wed Feb 17 14:13:13 2010 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 14:13:13 -0600 Subject: OT: Televisions In-Reply-To: References: <6dbe3c381002161353n2ea6e4d9i622aa9fd118011ee@mail.gmail.com> <4B7C2640.7060107@gmail.com> <4B7BCECF.30285.D23C30@cclist.sydex.com> <6dbe3c381002171118l58125650v18e0dfca1d20f8ea@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6dbe3c381002171213ue0f4523gcd0bf403781c698c@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Feb 17, 2010 at 1:55 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > I think I know the kind you are looking for (twice as wide as the > tube, left and right "wing speakers", cloth grille, decorative wood > features, sometimes with a radio or turntable inside, too), but I > haven't seen one of those at the curb in Columbus in many years - > people dumped those for black plastic WalMart specials a while back. > That's about right. It didn't have a tuner or turntable. It was a nice piece of furniture. It had two knobs, one for VHF and one for UHF, a power switch. and it also had a volume wheel, up for quieter, down for louder. I know this because I went downstairs at 6am when I was about 6 years old to watch saturday morning cartoons. I turned the volume all the way "down" before switching on the power to keep from waking them up. When we moved in 1980, they replaced it with a crappier veneered model that looked more modern and came with a remote. It was a big rounded wood box on a low stand so you could turn the TV to face you. That was the feature my mother was most excited about. Of course, she was also excited when telephones switched to RJ-11 connectors instead of the old screw-terminals so it didn't take much. :-) It would certainly be an interesting thing to showcase retro games on, > especially the Atari 2600, but they do have a large footprint. > We have a lot of space, so that isn't the main concern at the moment. My kids destroying things and having the time to play with this stuff is a bigger problem. I'd like to get a hold of a few game consoles. I had a colecovision, but only I think 5 cartridges. My parents got tired of spending money on them in a hurry. That's all I had between 1982 when the colecovision arrived, and 1987 when i bought my amiga. I kinda wish I'd picked up a 19" B&W when those were $10 at the Thrift > Stores - I have plenty of pre-color gaming machines that would be > perfect on the crispness of a maskless B&W tube. > My mother had a 12" black and white tv. I used to be fascinated by the amber glow of the tubes visible through the vents in the back. She still has a polaroid picture of the first moon landing on that tv. How's that for retro? lol brian From cclist at sydex.com Wed Feb 17 14:14:56 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 12:14:56 -0800 Subject: HP-IB, Amigo/cs80 was Re: hp 9153 floppy & disk In-Reply-To: References: <4B7B42E7.3040804@verizon.net> from "Keith M" at Feb 16, 10 08:14:15 pm, Message-ID: <4B7BDDC0.8419.10C98CD@cclist.sydex.com> On 17 Feb 2010 at 19:27, Tony Duell wrote: > Why on earth do you need to make a special PCB for a one-off prototype > or experimental circuit? If you use through-hole components, DIP, or > PLCC ICs (in their sockets), or mount SOICs and PQFPs or adapter > boards, you can hand-wire the circuit on stripboard or sqaure pad > board in less time than it takes to design the PCB. If it's a board of any scale (8+ ICs), I prefer to wire-wrap it myself. I start with one-sided FR4 0.060 PCB blank, drill it for pins, and run a bare +Vcc bus on the non-copper side of the board. Gives me a great ground plane and is easy to rework. --Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Feb 17 14:38:43 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 15:38:43 -0500 Subject: HP-IB, Amigo/cs80 was Re: hp 9153 floppy & disk In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Feb 17, 2010, at 1:31 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >>> I am missing something here. The purpose of a microcontroller is to >>> control something. You have to build an interface between the >>> microcontroller and whatever it is goign to control. And like it >>> or not, >>> building that interface is going to involve some soldering. >>> >> I think that last part is the part you're missing. Many people >> will do >> anything to not solder, so they will use accessories with pigtails, >> wirenuts and spade connectors, or crimp connectors or IDC connectors >> with ribbon cable split out to individual wires, with wirenuts to >> other >> wires, etc. I am sure I'm missing some of the non-solder-based >> connection methods, but you get the idea. > > What I don;t get is _why_ there's this aversion to soldering. > > It is not difficult to solder thsi sort of thing. Anyone with the > manual > dexterity to fit IDC connectors, split and stip ribbon cable, etc, > could > do it. The equipment required is not hard to get or expensive (a good > soldering iron costs less than many evaluation boards, it costs a lot > less than the stuff you need to do microcomputer development). What is > the problem? It's the same psychological issue that people who are ok with soldering have with surface-mount components. It's fear of something new or different, and it's all in their heads. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Feb 17 14:40:31 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 15:40:31 -0500 Subject: VAX graphics In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <329B4F99-1C81-408A-BBDE-3F3A5285883F@neurotica.com> On Feb 17, 2010, at 1:27 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> I've never seen, nor heard of anything but white phosphor VT100s. > > Many years ago I saw a VT100 with what was cal;ed a 'retrographics > board' > fitted. This was a third-party add-on that connected to various > connectors on the normal VT100 logic board and which gave (for the > time) > high resolution graphics. (No, I don't mean a VT105 board, this thing > allowed to you to set or clear each pixel). > > Anyway, I seem to rememeb this unit had a green phosphor CRT in it. It > was almost caetainly not DEC-original, it was probably changed when > the > retrographics boar dwas fitted. That was called, I think, a "VT640" or something similar. It wasn't a DEC product. I had one a very long time ago (late 1980s I think) and it was dead. I don't know where it ended up. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Feb 17 14:53:41 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 15:53:41 -0500 Subject: HP-IB, Amigo/cs80 was Re: hp 9153 floppy & disk In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 2/17/10, Dave McGuire wrote: >>>> ...like it or not, >>>> building that interface is going to involve some soldering. >>>> >>> I think that last part is the part you're missing. Many people >>> will do anything to not solder... >> >> What I don;t get is _why_ there's this aversion to soldering. > > It's the same psychological issue that people who are ok with > soldering have with surface-mount components. It's fear of something > new or different, and it's all in their heads. I agree, but I'd like to add that I think it goes beyond simple neophobia - the activity is unforgiving of failure - a joint is good and works, or a joint is bad or marginal and it fails or works intermittently (which is worse). From trying to teach soldering, the unforgiving nature leads to student frustration. They hear it's "hard", the see it's "hard", they don't want to try, and if they do and it doesn't work, it tears down the confidence to move further. It takes practice and it takes persistence and it takes the willingness to risk failure - things that don't seem to be so popular lately (and mentioned in this article on the job market http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/201003/jobless-america-future) -ethan From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Feb 17 15:04:38 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 21:04:38 +0000 (GMT) Subject: HP-IB, Amigo/cs80 was Re: hp 9153 floppy & disk In-Reply-To: <4B7BDDC0.8419.10C98CD@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Feb 17, 10 12:14:56 pm Message-ID: > > On 17 Feb 2010 at 19:27, Tony Duell wrote: > > > Why on earth do you need to make a special PCB for a one-off prototype > > or experimental circuit? If you use through-hole components, DIP, or > > PLCC ICs (in their sockets), or mount SOICs and PQFPs or adapter > > boards, you can hand-wire the circuit on stripboard or sqaure pad > > board in less time than it takes to design the PCB. > > If it's a board of any scale (8+ ICs), I prefer to wire-wrap it > myself. I start with one-sided FR4 0.060 PCB blank, drill it for Indeed. Wire-wrapping is very relaible and quick to do. The only downside is the price of the wire-wrap sockets. I have never seen wire-wrap PLCC sockets, but it's easy to plug a normal through-hole PLCC socket into wire-wrap pin strips. It's probably not so reliable to do that, but I've never had serious problems. > pins, and run a bare +Vcc bus on the non-copper side of the board. > Gives me a great ground plane and is easy to rework. Another trick I've used is to make little 'mounts' by soldering DIL sockets to the commer side of stripboard and then to stich the non-copper side to a pice of copper-clad board (as a ground plane). Use the sorted connections to said copper ground plane for grounds nad decoupling caps, of course. I've run things like that at 100MHz+ with no problems. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Feb 17 15:06:41 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 21:06:41 +0000 (GMT) Subject: HP-IB, Amigo/cs80 was Re: hp 9153 floppy & disk In-Reply-To: from "Dave McGuire" at Feb 17, 10 03:38:43 pm Message-ID: > It's the same psychological issue that people who are ok with > soldering have with surface-mount components. It's fear of something > new or different, and it's all in their heads. I am convince that the best way to deal with such problems is to meet them head-on. The best 'cure' for an aversion to sodleirng is to grab a soldering iron (by the handle :-)) and solder up a PCB. 10 minutes later you'll wonder what all the fuss was about. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Feb 17 15:08:35 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 21:08:35 +0000 (GMT) Subject: VAX graphics In-Reply-To: <329B4F99-1C81-408A-BBDE-3F3A5285883F@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Feb 17, 10 03:40:31 pm Message-ID: > > On Feb 17, 2010, at 1:27 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > >> I've never seen, nor heard of anything but white phosphor VT100s. > > > > Many years ago I saw a VT100 with what was cal;ed a 'retrographics > > board' > > fitted. This was a third-party add-on that connected to various > > connectors on the normal VT100 logic board and which gave (for the > > time) > > high resolution graphics. (No, I don't mean a VT105 board, this thing > > allowed to you to set or clear each pixel). > > > > Anyway, I seem to rememeb this unit had a green phosphor CRT in it. It > > was almost caetainly not DEC-original, it was probably changed when > > the > > retrographics boar dwas fitted. > > That was called, I think, a "VT640" or something similar. It > wasn't a DEC product. I had one a very long time ago (late 1980s I > think) and it was dead. I don't know where it ended up. It was partly a DEC product :-). The chassis,case, keyboard PSU, bideo board and logic board were all stock DEC parts. There was a paddleboard (non-DEC) in that bridging edge connector that intercepts the lines to the RS232 conenctor. And another board full of chips (including IIRC a Z80) to do the graphics. I assumed from the name that this board could be retro-fitted into a stock VT100. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Feb 17 15:24:21 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 21:24:21 +0000 (GMT) Subject: HP-IB, Amigo/cs80 was Re: hp 9153 floppy & disk In-Reply-To: from "Ethan Dicks" at Feb 17, 10 03:53:41 pm Message-ID: > I agree, but I'd like to add that I think it goes beyond simple > neophobia - the activity is unforgiving of failure - a joint is good > and works, or a joint is bad or marginal and it fails or works > intermittently (which is worse). From trying to teach soldering, the > unforgiving nature leads to student frustration. I am suprised. I've taught dozens of people to solder over the years, and every one had success within half an hour. It's quite easy to test the soldered connections. Of course you don't want to have to do that for every joint you make, but it doesn't hurt to do it on the first circuit or 2 that you solder up. > > They hear it's "hard", the see it's "hard", they don't want to try, > and if they do and it doesn't work, it tears down the confidence to > move further. > > It takes practice and it takes persistence and it takes the > willingness to risk failure - things that don't seem to be so popular I can't think of any worthwhile activity (I am not just thinking about science, engineering, etc) that doesn't take practice. That you are instantly able to do. No, you hvve to try, make mistakes, and learn from them. Then you will improve. Undortunately, as you imply, people want instant results these dats. Which is a pity, since they will never get really good at anything like that. > lately (and mentioned in this article on the job market > http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/201003/jobless-america-future) -tony From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Feb 17 15:34:14 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 13:34:14 -0800 (PST) Subject: HP-IB, Amigo/cs80 was Re: hp 9153 floppy & disk In-Reply-To: from Tony Duell at "Feb 17, 10 06:31:10 pm" Message-ID: <201002172134.o1HLYFgo015316@floodgap.com> > What I don;t get is _why_ there's this aversion to soldering. I don't care for it either. I'm sure I would get better at it if I practised regularly, but I only have a limited need to build certain items at certain intervals. Solderless techniques are hella more convenient. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- #include ------------------------------------------------ From IanK at vulcan.com Wed Feb 17 15:43:11 2010 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 13:43:11 -0800 Subject: OT: Televisions In-Reply-To: <4B7BCECF.30285.D23C30@cclist.sydex.com> References: <6dbe3c381002161353n2ea6e4d9i622aa9fd118011ee@mail.gmail.com>, <4B7C2640.7060107@gmail.com> <4B7BCECF.30285.D23C30@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chuck Guzis > Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2010 11:11 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: OT: Televisions > > On 17 Feb 2010 at 11:24, Jules Richardson wrote: > > > Brian Lanning wrote: > > > The next question pertains to console televisions. I'd like to > find > > > (much to my wife's dismay) a console television like the one my > > > parents had back in the late 70s. I'd like to use it to play old > > > video game consoles from the 70s and 80s. I believe these were all > > > vacuum tube sets though, is that correct? Is there a good source > > > for these things (the TVs and the tubes) today? > > There's someone trying to give away a nice 27" RCA console (with the > turntable-style mounting) on the local CL. They're not uncommon, > just big and heavy--a lot of particle board went into those slab- > sided cabinets. > ISTR some solid-state models - vacuum tubes were mostly '60s and early '70s, if I remember correctly. -- Ian From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Feb 17 15:48:01 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 16:48:01 -0500 Subject: Teaching soldering skills (was Re: HP-IB, Amigo/cs80) Message-ID: On 2/17/10, Tony Duell wrote: >> From trying to teach soldering, the >> unforgiving nature leads to student frustration. > > I am suprised. I've taught dozens of people to solder over the years, and > every one had success within half an hour. More particularly, I've taught several people over the past few months how to solder at a few workshops. I've had mixed results. All were enthusiastic, but not all were, in the old vernacular, "mechanically inclined". What would probably have helped is an aspect of the workshop that was specifically soldering instruction, not kit assembly, with easy to reach and easy to inspect widely spaced joints. What we had at our disposal was a few joints on 0.1" boards - either a made-in-class PCB (not my design, or I'd have made the pads bigger which would have helped) or a factory-made strip-board (Lilypad prototyping board) that was soldered to after the web of interconnections were cut to route the signals. All of the students learned *something* about soldering, but even after 90 minutes and several attempts, the success rate (good joints) was probably between 50%-66%. I had to retouch a number of joints to get the projects working during the class period. More practice would have obviously been beneficial. -ethan From cclist at sydex.com Wed Feb 17 16:37:46 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 14:37:46 -0800 Subject: HP-IB, Amigo/cs80 was Re: hp 9153 floppy & disk In-Reply-To: References: <4B7BDDC0.8419.10C98CD@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Feb 17, 10 12:14:56 pm, Message-ID: <4B7BFF3A.24697.18F5FFD@cclist.sydex.com> On 17 Feb 2010 at 21:04, Tony Duell wrote: > Indeed. Wire-wrapping is very relaible and quick to do. The only > downside is the price of the wire-wrap sockets. I don't bother with sockets. I use the push-in socket pins scavenged from old prototyping boards. One good-sized board will keep you in pins for a very long time. If I'm using a PLCC package, I take a standard through-hole PLCC socket and push the socket tails into the wire-wrap pin sockets. A bit of glue holds it fast to the PCB. The downside is that the gold bugs see all those shiny pins and want to scavenge them for metal content, so they're getting harder to find. --Chuck From IanK at vulcan.com Wed Feb 17 17:34:42 2010 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 15:34:42 -0800 Subject: Tubes (was OT: Televisions) In-Reply-To: References: from "William Donzelli" at Feb 16, 10 07:45:16 pm Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tony Duell > Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2010 10:59 AM > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Tubes (was OT: Televisions) > > > > > > What are the people with these high-end Tube Amps using for thier > AM/FM > > > radio's? =A0Or are they simply connected to high-end turntables? > > > > They generally do not use their tuners, even if they have them. Even > > so, 99* percent of the tubes used in AM/FM tuners are common as dirt > - > > no need for new production. > > > > * Without doing research, name one that fits in the 1 percent - > > generally not what you think. > > Some of the tuning indicators (Magic Eyes, Eye Tubes) are getting > harder to > find now. Was that beam-=switching pentode ever used in FM Tuners in > the > Ststes (it never was in the UK). It's very hard to find over here.but > that might be a country thing. > > -tony I just saw an article in an electronics magazine about a project with a 'Magic Eye' tube. Apparently the Chinese are building them. -- Ian From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Feb 17 18:02:54 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 19:02:54 -0500 Subject: Tubes (was OT: Televisions) In-Reply-To: References: from "William Donzelli" at Feb 16, 10 07:45:16 pm Message-ID: <4EB8C642-E8E9-4C02-869E-A02D5D0A083F@neurotica.com> On Feb 17, 2010, at 6:34 PM, Ian King wrote: >>>> What are the people with these high-end Tube Amps using for thier >> AM/FM >>>> radio's? =A0Or are they simply connected to high-end turntables? >>> >>> They generally do not use their tuners, even if they have them. Even >>> so, 99* percent of the tubes used in AM/FM tuners are common as dirt >> - >>> no need for new production. >>> >>> * Without doing research, name one that fits in the 1 percent - >>> generally not what you think. >> >> Some of the tuning indicators (Magic Eyes, Eye Tubes) are getting >> harder to >> find now. Was that beam-=switching pentode ever used in FM Tuners in >> the >> Ststes (it never was in the UK). It's very hard to find over here.but >> that might be a country thing. >> >> -tony > > I just saw an article in an electronics magazine about a project > with a 'Magic Eye' tube. Apparently the Chinese are building > them. -- Ian They're all over eBay.. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Feb 17 18:12:20 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 19:12:20 -0500 Subject: VAX graphics In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43EC7AD0-B4CB-4568-B573-7F3343A8CDC4@neurotica.com> On Feb 17, 2010, at 4:08 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >>>> I've never seen, nor heard of anything but white phosphor VT100s. >>> >>> Many years ago I saw a VT100 with what was cal;ed a 'retrographics >>> board' >>> fitted. This was a third-party add-on that connected to various >>> connectors on the normal VT100 logic board and which gave (for the >>> time) >>> high resolution graphics. (No, I don't mean a VT105 board, this >>> thing >>> allowed to you to set or clear each pixel). >>> >>> Anyway, I seem to rememeb this unit had a green phosphor CRT in >>> it. It >>> was almost caetainly not DEC-original, it was probably changed when >>> the >>> retrographics boar dwas fitted. >> >> That was called, I think, a "VT640" or something similar. It >> wasn't a DEC product. I had one a very long time ago (late 1980s I >> think) and it was dead. I don't know where it ended up. > > It was partly a DEC product :-). The chassis,case, keyboard PSU, > bideo > board and logic board were all stock DEC parts. There was a > paddleboard > (non-DEC) in that bridging edge connector that intercepts the lines to > the RS232 conenctor. And another board full of chips (including IIRC a > Z80) to do the graphics. > > I assumed from the name that this board could be retro-fitted into a > stock VT100. Well, by "wasn't a DEC product" I was talking about the board, which was sold to fit into existing VT100s. The one I had wasn't installed in a terminal when I got it. -Dave > -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From joachim.thiemann at gmail.com Wed Feb 17 19:19:17 2010 From: joachim.thiemann at gmail.com (Joachim Thiemann) Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 20:19:17 -0500 Subject: Solderless breadboarding (was: Re: HP-IB, Amigo/cs80 was Re: hp 9153 floppy & disk) Message-ID: <4affc5e1002171719k26664404ga43a276a78d09ed2@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Feb 17, 2010 at 13:49, Tony Duell wrote: > The main problem is that those breadboard are terrible. It's not the > clock speed that matters, it's the swtiching time of the IC. Most modern > ICs have ouptus that switch so fast that when you combine them with the > stray capacitances on the breadboard and the relatively high impedance > power connections, you get power and ground lines bouncing all over the > place. Without a _good_ 'scope it's impossible to know why your circuit > doesn't work. If you stick to 4000 series CMOS you'll be alright, but > modern 74xxx familes are pushing it. Really pushing it. But if you're just learning high speed don't matter, even with full computer prototypes. Incidentally, I just saw this: http://blog.makezine.com/archive/2010/02/building_a_cpm_68k_computer_from_sc.html Crazy, but I'm cheering for him! Retrotastic! :-) Joe. -- Joachim Thiemann :: http://www.tsp.ece.mcgill.ca/~jthiem From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Wed Feb 17 19:53:27 2010 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 17:53:27 -0800 (PST) Subject: Tubes (was OT: Televisions) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 17 Feb 2010, Tony Duell wrote: >>> What are the people with these high-end Tube Amps using for thier AM/FM >>> radio's? =A0Or are they simply connected to high-end turntables? >> >> They generally do not use their tuners, even if they have them. Even >> so, 99* percent of the tubes used in AM/FM tuners are common as dirt - >> no need for new production. >> >> * Without doing research, name one that fits in the 1 percent - >> generally not what you think. > > Some of the tuning indicators (Magic Eyes, Eye Tubes) are getting harder to > find now. Was that beam-=switching pentode ever used in FM Tuners in the > Ststes (it never was in the UK). It's very hard to find over here.but > that might be a country thing. I've seen some videos of homebrew magic eyes. Most of them are rectangular and move linearly rather than round and moving radially. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Feb 17 21:13:23 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 22:13:23 -0500 Subject: HP-IB, Amigo/cs80 was Re: hp 9153 floppy & disk In-Reply-To: <4B7B42E7.3040804@verizon.net> References: <4B7B0F8A.8050109@jbrain.com> <4B7B42E7.3040804@verizon.net> Message-ID: <9E587AD2-62C4-4521-B230-509F071CCC51@neurotica.com> On Feb 16, 2010, at 8:14 PM, Keith M wrote: > Good PCB design is hard to do for hobbyist. There is essentially > no DECENT free software. Eagle is the closest, but then they have > the limitation of 2" x 2"(or something) boards on the free > version. So you take people NEW to PCBs and you place arbitrary > limits which makes it even harder for them to succeed. No, there's *excellent* free software. For one, PCB (http:// pcb.gpleda.org/) is as good as all but the very best five-digit- pricetag commercial stuff I've seen, and it's getting better literally every week. I've done a number of both commercial and hobby designs with it, as have many others. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Feb 17 21:20:28 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 22:20:28 -0500 Subject: VMware appliances In-Reply-To: <201002170320.o1H3Kqrx000959@billY.EZWIND.NET> References: <624966d61002161340u1f99ad42i480171e6d69b59fe@mail.gmail.com> <201002170320.o1H3Kqrx000959@billY.EZWIND.NET> Message-ID: <5206DA8A-C0FA-4A95-B12B-614309091683@neurotica.com> On Feb 16, 2010, at 10:19 PM, John Foust wrote: > I was curious to see if anyone mentioned VMware as an emulation > environment > on this list. The archives show a brief conversation about it in 2002 > regarding whether it could run OS/2. > > I've been using it for a client's servers for the past few months and > it is mind-blowing. Drag-and-drop, super-fast start and stop of > entire > virtual servers. > > One of VMware's demo appliances is a DOS environment running old > games. > Linux large and small is a common OS in appliances, too. > > With the free VMware Workstation version, you can easily click-click > and be running a downloaded appliance. > > So why aren't we using VMware appliance images to exchange pre-made, > pre-set environments for running emulated OSes? Why would we? The major emulators (simh, hercules) are trivial to get up and running, and the OSs are typically easy to install. If we're going to distribute anything at all, it should be ready-made disk images, not packaged emulators. And people already do. Besides...What platform does VMware Workstation run on? Pretty limiting if you ask me. -Dave > -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From keithvz at verizon.net Wed Feb 17 21:29:27 2010 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith) Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 22:29:27 -0500 Subject: VMware appliances In-Reply-To: <5206DA8A-C0FA-4A95-B12B-614309091683@neurotica.com> References: <624966d61002161340u1f99ad42i480171e6d69b59fe@mail.gmail.com> <201002170320.o1H3Kqrx000959@billY.EZWIND.NET> <5206DA8A-C0FA-4A95-B12B-614309091683@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4B7CB417.7020405@verizon.net> Dave McGuire wrote: > On Feb 16, 2010, at 10:19 PM, John Foust wrote: >> So why aren't we using VMware appliance images to exchange pre-made, >> pre-set environments for running emulated OSes? While most of the replies haven't been positive, I think this is a good idea. There is definitely something said to having a portable-downloadable-instantly-runnable OS. > Besides...What platform does VMware Workstation run on? Pretty > limiting if you ask me. Windows? Linux? Seems good enough for most applications. Did we miss any popular useful OS support there? Keith From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Feb 17 21:35:46 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 22:35:46 -0500 Subject: VMware appliances In-Reply-To: <4B7CB417.7020405@verizon.net> References: <624966d61002161340u1f99ad42i480171e6d69b59fe@mail.gmail.com> <201002170320.o1H3Kqrx000959@billY.EZWIND.NET> <5206DA8A-C0FA-4A95-B12B-614309091683@neurotica.com> <4B7CB417.7020405@verizon.net> Message-ID: On Feb 17, 2010, at 10:29 PM, Keith wrote: >>> So why aren't we using VMware appliance images to exchange pre-made, >>> pre-set environments for running emulated OSes? > > While most of the replies haven't been positive, I think this is a > good idea. There is definitely something said to having a portable- > downloadable-instantly-runnable OS. > >> Besides...What platform does VMware Workstation run on? Pretty >> limiting if you ask me. > > Windows? Linux? Seems good enough for most applications. On x86. > Did we miss any popular useful OS support there? Linux on anything other than x86 (LOTS of machines out there) PPC (lots of machines out there) SPARC (growing like a weed despite misinformed comments here) Etc. And does it run on OS X? I suppose most of the folk who would shy away from installing the emulators by hand (which includes downloading pre-built binaries and clicking "go") would probably be the Windows people anyway. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Feb 17 21:36:53 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 22:36:53 -0500 Subject: Solderless breadboarding (was: Re: HP-IB, Amigo/cs80 was Re: hp 9153 floppy & disk) In-Reply-To: <4affc5e1002171719k26664404ga43a276a78d09ed2@mail.gmail.com> References: <4affc5e1002171719k26664404ga43a276a78d09ed2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Feb 17, 2010, at 8:19 PM, Joachim Thiemann wrote: >> The main problem is that those breadboard are terrible. It's not the >> clock speed that matters, it's the swtiching time of the IC. Most >> modern >> ICs have ouptus that switch so fast that when you combine them >> with the >> stray capacitances on the breadboard and the relatively high >> impedance >> power connections, you get power and ground lines bouncing all >> over the >> place. Without a _good_ 'scope it's impossible to know why your >> circuit >> doesn't work. If you stick to 4000 series CMOS you'll be alright, but >> modern 74xxx familes are pushing it. Really pushing it. > > But if you're just learning high speed don't matter, even with full > computer prototypes. Incidentally, I just saw this: > http://blog.makezine.com/archive/2010/02/ > building_a_cpm_68k_computer_from_sc.html > > Crazy, but I'm cheering for him! Retrotastic! :-) Crazy? I'm cheering too! It gives me great hope, seeing people doing things like this. "Building stuff" seems to be coming back into style. I applaud the "Make" crowd. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From keithvz at verizon.net Wed Feb 17 21:41:29 2010 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith) Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 22:41:29 -0500 Subject: VMware appliances In-Reply-To: References: <624966d61002161340u1f99ad42i480171e6d69b59fe@mail.gmail.com> <201002170320.o1H3Kqrx000959@billY.EZWIND.NET> <5206DA8A-C0FA-4A95-B12B-614309091683@neurotica.com> <4B7CB417.7020405@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4B7CB6E9.1090303@verizon.net> Dave McGuire wrote: >> Windows? Linux? Seems good enough for most applications. > > On x86. Actually x86_64. But who's counting? >> Did we miss any popular useful OS support there? > And does it run on OS X? Ahhhh, now we come to the root of the argument. :) Actually, I was totally baiting you and you exercised good restraint. I'm proud of you! (you're learning) :) > I suppose most of the folk who would shy away from installing the > emulators by hand (which includes downloading pre-built binaries and > clicking "go") would probably be the Windows people anyway. > > -Dave > Touch? pussy cat. Keith From keithvz at verizon.net Wed Feb 17 21:46:58 2010 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith) Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 22:46:58 -0500 Subject: Solderless breadboarding (was: Re: HP-IB, Amigo/cs80 was Re: hp 9153 floppy & disk) In-Reply-To: References: <4affc5e1002171719k26664404ga43a276a78d09ed2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B7CB832.60102@verizon.net> Dave McGuire wrote: > On Feb 17, 2010, at 8:19 PM, Joachim Thiemann wrote: >> But if you're just learning high speed don't matter, even with full >> computer prototypes. Incidentally, I just saw this: >> http://blog.makezine.com/archive/2010/02/building_a_cpm_68k_computer_from_sc.html >> >> >> Crazy, but I'm cheering for him! Retrotastic! :-) > > Crazy? I'm cheering too! It gives me great hope, seeing people doing > things like this. "Building stuff" seems to be coming back into style. > I applaud the "Make" crowd. > > -Dave Yup, pretty cool. I want to eventually build my own 68k machine from scratch. A friend lent me "Microprocessor System Design: 68000 Hardware, Software, and Interfacing" by Alan Clements. I bought my own copy within a couple days. Fantastic read!! Doesn't skimp on the details. Very relevant for my electronic studies (which are loosely tied to the Amiga) I applaud "Make" too, I just hate paying $15 newsstand price for their darn magazines. I'm ordering a subscription which is significantly cheaper.... Keith From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Feb 17 22:00:28 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 23:00:28 -0500 Subject: VMware appliances In-Reply-To: <4B7CB6E9.1090303@verizon.net> References: <624966d61002161340u1f99ad42i480171e6d69b59fe@mail.gmail.com> <201002170320.o1H3Kqrx000959@billY.EZWIND.NET> <5206DA8A-C0FA-4A95-B12B-614309091683@neurotica.com> <4B7CB417.7020405@verizon.net> <4B7CB6E9.1090303@verizon.net> Message-ID: On Feb 17, 2010, at 10:41 PM, Keith wrote: >>> Windows? Linux? Seems good enough for most applications. >> On x86. > > Actually x86_64. But who's counting? Ahh ok. >>> Did we miss any popular useful OS support there? > >> And does it run on OS X? > > Ahhhh, now we come to the root of the argument. :) Well no, it's not my primary platform, assumptions aside. > Actually, I was totally baiting you and you exercised good restraint. Ahem. > I'm proud of you! (you're learning) :) When I die, I'm gonna haunt you. >> I suppose most of the folk who would shy away from installing >> the emulators by hand (which includes downloading pre-built >> binaries and clicking "go") would probably be the Windows people >> anyway. > > Touch? pussy cat. Chains rattling in the attic, the whole deal. But seriously. We have an easy way to do what we're talking about now, that runs on lots of different platforms. The emulators themselves (at least the major ones) run on lots of different platforms. You're proposing the adoption of a habit that would cut the long list of platforms, upwards of twenty or more, down to like...two. Bad idea. But I suppose, that said, people wouldn't *have* to run those VMs.. -Dave > -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Feb 17 22:01:57 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 23:01:57 -0500 Subject: Solderless breadboarding (was: Re: HP-IB, Amigo/cs80 was Re: hp 9153 floppy & disk) In-Reply-To: <4B7CB832.60102@verizon.net> References: <4affc5e1002171719k26664404ga43a276a78d09ed2@mail.gmail.com> <4B7CB832.60102@verizon.net> Message-ID: <41967E49-C924-4771-942B-50CD0CAAB2AF@neurotica.com> On Feb 17, 2010, at 10:46 PM, Keith wrote: >>> But if you're just learning high speed don't matter, even with full >>> computer prototypes. Incidentally, I just saw this: >>> http://blog.makezine.com/archive/2010/02/ >>> building_a_cpm_68k_computer_from_sc.html >>> >>> Crazy, but I'm cheering for him! Retrotastic! :-) >> Crazy? I'm cheering too! It gives me great hope, seeing people >> doing things like this. "Building stuff" seems to be coming back >> into style. I applaud the "Make" crowd. > > Yup, pretty cool. I want to eventually build my own 68k machine > from scratch. A friend lent me "Microprocessor System Design: > 68000 Hardware, Software, and Interfacing" by Alan Clements. I > bought my own copy within a couple days. Fantastic read!! Doesn't > skimp on the details. Very relevant for my electronic studies > (which are loosely tied to the Amiga) Yes, that's an excellent book! Go for it, build a 68K machine. Lots of people have done it with good results. I've not yet done it myself, but I will soon. (actually I started one, but the wiring technique I used ended up not working well enough...it was my first try with a new technique) > I applaud "Make" too, I just hate paying $15 newsstand price for > their darn magazines. I'm ordering a subscription which is > significantly cheaper.... They're pricey, but there's a lot of good info in there. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From brain at jbrain.com Wed Feb 17 22:08:59 2010 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 22:08:59 -0600 Subject: HP-IB, Amigo/cs80 was Re: hp 9153 floppy & disk In-Reply-To: <9E587AD2-62C4-4521-B230-509F071CCC51@neurotica.com> References: <4B7B0F8A.8050109@jbrain.com> <4B7B42E7.3040804@verizon.net> <9E587AD2-62C4-4521-B230-509F071CCC51@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4B7CBD5B.90805@jbrain.com> On 2/17/2010 9:13 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On Feb 16, 2010, at 8:14 PM, Keith M wrote: >> Good PCB design is hard to do for hobbyist. There is essentially no >> DECENT free software. Eagle is the closest, but then they have the >> limitation of 2" x 2"(or something) boards on the free version. So >> you take people NEW to PCBs and you place arbitrary limits which >> makes it even harder for them to succeed. > > No, there's *excellent* free software. For one, PCB > (http://pcb.gpleda.org/) is as good as all but the very best > five-digit-pricetag commercial stuff I've seen, and it's getting > better literally every week. I've done a number of both commercial > and hobby designs with it, as have many others. > > -Dave > I sure would like to know what one needs to smoke to agree with this :-) I tried gEDA (includes PCB). Concerning PCB: * Can't find a Windows version that works. A few builds are available, but they are less than usable on Windows. So, I had to install on the Linux box. Linux is viable as a platform, but a lot of entries into this space are on Windows. * IMHO UI is very non-intuitive (that's saying something from a guy who learned the EAGLE UI) * Changing options (trace width, etc.) much more cumbersome * Could not find ability to change package for part already on board. * I assume there is a way to select all elements in a drawn bounding box, but could not find it * Could not find a way to put rounded edges on polygons, like ground and VCC pours. * integration between gschem and PCB. If PCB is better than all the 5 digit PCB CAD SW, then I shudder. I am sure all of these things are surmountable, but I am not sure PCB is a good choice for someone starting out in PCB design. I'm not sure I'd recommend EAGLE, since it has the non intuitive UI, but there is FreePCB, TinyCAD, ZenitPCB (http://www.olimex.com/pcb/dtools.html) for the Windows crowd, and KiCAD looked credible for the Windows or Linux crowd. I'll grant that PCB is extremely powerful, but I asked a designer to work on a small board in gschem/pcb for me and I did a comparable design in EAGLE. The designer has 10 years experience using gschem/pcb, and it took twice as long to do the design as my EAGLE effort.. We're both about the same skill level in design, it was a 2 layer board, 10 components. I think one of the other options is a better choice (KiCAD is OSS-compliant, if that's a requirement for the user) Jim -- Jim Brain, Brain Innovations (X) brain at jbrain.com Dabbling in WWW, Embedded Systems, Old CBM computers, and Good Times! Home: http://www.jbrain.com From cclist at sydex.com Wed Feb 17 22:32:23 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 20:32:23 -0800 Subject: Solderless breadboarding (was: Re: HP-IB, Amigo/cs80 was Re: hp 9153 floppy & disk) In-Reply-To: <4affc5e1002171719k26664404ga43a276a78d09ed2@mail.gmail.com> References: <4affc5e1002171719k26664404ga43a276a78d09ed2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B7C5257.25910.2D40770@cclist.sydex.com> On 17 Feb 2010 at 20:19, Joachim Thiemann wrote: > But if you're just learning high speed don't matter, even with full > computer prototypes. Incidentally, I just saw this: > http://blog.makezine.com/archive/2010/02/building_a_cpm_68k_computer_f > rom_sc.html Okay, I know that some folks assemble jigsaw puzzles and glue them to a substrate when finished so they can be used as hanging art. And I suppose it's possible to glue playing cards together in case one wants to prove that he built an impossibly huge structure with them. But how does one preserve this kind of thing constructed on a wireless breadboard? Pour potting resin all over it? Put it under glass? I remember my dad showing me that he still remembered how to breadboard--on a nice piece of shellacked pine, using 14 AWG sold copper wire and UV201A's and plenty of woodscrews. It was a thing of beauty. --Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Feb 17 22:35:14 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 23:35:14 -0500 Subject: HP-IB, Amigo/cs80 was Re: hp 9153 floppy & disk In-Reply-To: <4B7CBD5B.90805@jbrain.com> References: <4B7B0F8A.8050109@jbrain.com> <4B7B42E7.3040804@verizon.net> <9E587AD2-62C4-4521-B230-509F071CCC51@neurotica.com> <4B7CBD5B.90805@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <90520887-9D8A-4589-B5AB-D8E5028D15B9@neurotica.com> On Feb 17, 2010, at 11:08 PM, Jim Brain wrote: >> No, there's *excellent* free software. For one, PCB (http:// >> pcb.gpleda.org/) is as good as all but the very best five-digit- >> pricetag commercial stuff I've seen, and it's getting better >> literally every week. I've done a number of both commercial and >> hobby designs with it, as have many others. > > I sure would like to know what one needs to smoke to agree with > this :-) > > I tried gEDA (includes PCB). Concerning PCB: > > * Can't find a Windows version that works. A few builds are > available, but they are less than usable on Windows. So, I > had to > install on the Linux box. Linux is viable as a platform, but a > lot of entries into this space are on Windows. It's a UNIX package. The fact that some people have managed to build it under Windows doesn't make it a Windows package. > * IMHO UI is very non-intuitive (that's saying something from a guy > who learned the EAGLE UI) Yes, there's a huge learning curve. The same is true for most powerful software. There's really no way to dumb it down enough to hide the complexities of PCB design, unless you seriously lobotomize the functionality. See ExpressPCB for an example of that. Now, that said, unless you've used it in the past two years or so, you've not seen where it has gone. It is under extremely active development, and usability has been a major focus. It even has photorealistic board rendering now. > * Changing options (trace width, etc.) much more cumbersome Three clicks, or is it two? Or do you mean changing the width of an existing trace? You actually have to type a command to do that. > * Could not find ability to change package for part already on > board. That's true. > * I assume there is a way to select all elements in a drawn > bounding > box, but could not find it Click, drag a rectangle box to select. (at least if memory serves) You need to be in "select" mode. > * Could not find a way to put rounded edges on polygons, like > ground > and VCC pours. I haven't tried that. If you really want that, I'm sure one of the developers could do it pretty easily. > * integration between gschem and PCB. There's lots of integration already, notably lacking back- annotation. The integration thing has been an uphill battle since they were developed independently until the past 6-7 years or so. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From brain at jbrain.com Wed Feb 17 22:57:34 2010 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 22:57:34 -0600 Subject: HP-IB, Amigo/cs80 was Re: hp 9153 floppy & disk In-Reply-To: <90520887-9D8A-4589-B5AB-D8E5028D15B9@neurotica.com> References: <4B7B0F8A.8050109@jbrain.com> <4B7B42E7.3040804@verizon.net> <9E587AD2-62C4-4521-B230-509F071CCC51@neurotica.com> <4B7CBD5B.90805@jbrain.com> <90520887-9D8A-4589-B5AB-D8E5028D15B9@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4B7CC8BE.4010206@jbrain.com> On 2/17/2010 10:35 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On Feb 17, 2010, at 11:08 PM, Jim Brain wrote: >>> No, there's *excellent* free software. For one, PCB >>> (http://pcb.gpleda.org/) is as good as all but the very best >>> five-digit-pricetag commercial stuff I've seen, and it's getting >>> better literally every week. I've done a number of both commercial >>> and hobby designs with it, as have many others. >> > It's a UNIX package. The fact that some people have managed to > build it under Windows doesn't make it a Windows package. I don't have an issue with the heritage or the target audience. I do, though, struggle with suggesting it as an alternative to EAGLE (which has UNIX and Windows versions). > > Yes, there's a huge learning curve. The same is true for most > powerful software. There's really no way to dumb it down enough to > hide the complexities of PCB design, unless you seriously lobotomize > the functionality. See ExpressPCB for an example of that. Dunno, I find EAGLE very powerful, and less of a learning curve. KiCAD looks to also be less of a learning curve. > > Now, that said, unless you've used it in the past two years or so, > you've not seen where it has gone. It is under extremely active > development, and usability has been a major focus. It even has > photorealistic board rendering now. I installed the RPMs from the gEDA Download page last week. I tried all of the things in my email immediately prior to writing the message. > >> * Changing options (trace width, etc.) much more cumbersome > > Three clicks, or is it two? Or do you mean changing the width of an > existing trace? You actually have to type a command to do that. Changing an existing trace. >> * I assume there is a way to select all elements in a drawn bounding >> box, but could not find it > > Click, drag a rectangle box to select. (at least if memory serves) > You need to be in "select" mode. Just tried it on v20081129 (the latest gEDA install on the page) in select mode. It keeps wanting to grab the first item it snaps to. > > I haven't tried that. If you really want that, I'm sure one of the > developers could do it pretty easily. It's very useful to make wide sloping power traces for expansion boards. > > There's lots of integration already, notably lacking > back-annotation. The integration thing has been an uphill battle > since they were developed independently until the past 6-7 years or so. I know, and I know they have come SO far since that time (I first tried the SW about 5 years ago, for a few minutes). I am trying to not be critical of the work they have invested in it. Unfortunately, while they are busy getting the UI up to people's expectations, the expectations are fast moving forward. I am also sure it is hard to make a nice UI for what is a very complex process. Still, for newbies, I am just not sure PCB is the path I would recommend. Truly, as much as I loathe the tie-in of ExpressPCB to their PCB fabrication business, I'd probably recommend it if EAGLE was not an option, at least for the initial trials of a newbie user. Jim -- Jim Brain, Brain Innovations (X) brain at jbrain.com Dabbling in WWW, Embedded Systems, Old CBM computers, and Good Times! Home: http://www.jbrain.com From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Feb 17 23:10:25 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 00:10:25 -0500 Subject: HP-IB, Amigo/cs80 was Re: hp 9153 floppy & disk In-Reply-To: <4B7CC8BE.4010206@jbrain.com> References: <4B7B0F8A.8050109@jbrain.com> <4B7B42E7.3040804@verizon.net> <9E587AD2-62C4-4521-B230-509F071CCC51@neurotica.com> <4B7CBD5B.90805@jbrain.com> <90520887-9D8A-4589-B5AB-D8E5028D15B9@neurotica.com> <4B7CC8BE.4010206@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <77A7FBBC-2099-4F9D-81BD-111BFD32A926@neurotica.com> On Feb 17, 2010, at 11:57 PM, Jim Brain wrote: >>>> No, there's *excellent* free software. For one, PCB (http:// >>>> pcb.gpleda.org/) is as good as all but the very best five-digit- >>>> pricetag commercial stuff I've seen, and it's getting better >>>> literally every week. I've done a number of both commercial and >>>> hobby designs with it, as have many others. >>> >> It's a UNIX package. The fact that some people have managed to >> build it under Windows doesn't make it a Windows package. > > I don't have an issue with the heritage or the target audience. I > do, though, struggle with suggesting it as an alternative to EAGLE > (which has UNIX and Windows versions). I wasn't suggesting it as such...Keith said there are no good free packages, and there are. PCB is suited to higher-end commercial development, not newbies, but that wasn't what he said. Hmm. I guess that was the context, though. :-/ >> Yes, there's a huge learning curve. The same is true for most >> powerful software. There's really no way to dumb it down enough >> to hide the complexities of PCB design, unless you seriously >> lobotomize the functionality. See ExpressPCB for an example of that. > > Dunno, I find EAGLE very powerful, and less of a learning curve. > KiCAD looks to also be less of a learning curve. Eagle is pretty powerful, and is pretty much the "standard" for low-end development and smaller boards. PCB is geared toward larger stuff. You don't sit down and whack out a board in an hour in PCB...but you don't design an entire (big) computer in Eagle. I've not looked at KiCAD. >> Now, that said, unless you've used it in the past two years or >> so, you've not seen where it has gone. It is under extremely >> active development, and usability has been a major focus. It even >> has photorealistic board rendering now. > > I installed the RPMs from the gEDA Download page last week. I > tried all of the things in my email immediately prior to writing > the message. Well admittedly I'm running development snapshots. They PCB developers are a bit lacking in the "just cut a damn release already!" area. >>> * Changing options (trace width, etc.) much more cumbersome >> >> Three clicks, or is it two? Or do you mean changing the width >> of an existing trace? You actually have to type a command to do >> that. > > Changing an existing trace. Not click-click trivial, no. If memory serves, you have to select the trace, and execute a function by name to change its width. >>> * I assume there is a way to select all elements in a drawn >>> bounding >>> box, but could not find it >> >> Click, drag a rectangle box to select. (at least if memory >> serves) You need to be in "select" mode. > > Just tried it on v20081129 (the latest gEDA install on the page) in > select mode. It keeps wanting to grab the first item it snaps to. Yeah that's pretty old snapshot by now. I'm not sure why the later stuff isn't more readily known to those not on the mailing lists. >> I haven't tried that. If you really want that, I'm sure one of >> the developers could do it pretty easily. > > It's very useful to make wide sloping power traces for expansion > boards. Agreed. >> There's lots of integration already, notably lacking back- >> annotation. The integration thing has been an uphill battle since >> they were developed independently until the past 6-7 years or so. > > I know, and I know they have come SO far since that time (I first > tried the SW about 5 years ago, for a few minutes). I am trying to > not be critical of the work they have invested in it. > Unfortunately, while they are busy getting the UI up to people's > expectations, the expectations are fast moving forward. I am also > sure it is hard to make a nice UI for what is a very complex process. Welllll...I'm not sure I agree with your assertion that peoples' expectations are changing. PCB design is a developing art, but it's not moving THAT quickly. I use pretty much the same techniques with PCB on a Sun Ray terminal backed by a big multiprocessor Sun as I did on a huge desk-based Calay system in 1988. > Still, for newbies, I am just not sure PCB is the path I would > recommend. Truly, as much as I loathe the tie-in of ExpressPCB to > their PCB fabrication business, I'd probably recommend it if EAGLE > was not an option, at least for the initial trials of a newbie user. For newbies, yes, I have to agree. As I mentioned in the top of this email, I kinda blew it here by ignoring the context of the thread. For that I apologize. In that context, I agree wholeheartedly with your points. -Dave > -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From brain at jbrain.com Wed Feb 17 23:37:04 2010 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 23:37:04 -0600 Subject: HP-IB, Amigo/cs80 was Re: hp 9153 floppy & disk In-Reply-To: <77A7FBBC-2099-4F9D-81BD-111BFD32A926@neurotica.com> References: <4B7B0F8A.8050109@jbrain.com> <4B7B42E7.3040804@verizon.net> <9E587AD2-62C4-4521-B230-509F071CCC51@neurotica.com> <4B7CBD5B.90805@jbrain.com> <90520887-9D8A-4589-B5AB-D8E5028D15B9@neurotica.com> <4B7CC8BE.4010206@jbrain.com> <77A7FBBC-2099-4F9D-81BD-111BFD32A926@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4B7CD200.6090803@jbrain.com> On 2/17/2010 11:10 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > > Hmm. I guess that was the context, though. :-/ Ah, it makes more sense now. > > Eagle is pretty powerful, and is pretty much the "standard" for > low-end development and smaller boards. PCB is geared toward larger > stuff. You don't sit down and whack out a board in an hour in > PCB...but you don't design an entire (big) computer in Eagle. That puts me in a bit of a quandary. I am just *NOT* grokking PCB at present. maybe I'm just too comfortable with EAGLE. But, I am ready to start laying out more complex boards, so I need to make a decision here at some point on the direction I should go. TO tie all of this together and relate to the list topic: Lots of people are asking for vintage PC peripherals and integration with contemporary stuff, but the only way to implement some of these designs is via CPLD and/or FPGA, and making all of that fit in some of the required spaces will mean 4 layer boards and lots of fine pitch work. It's OK, and I'm game to learn FPGAs and more complex layout, but I have got to be efficient about this. > > > Well admittedly I'm running development snapshots. They PCB > developers are a bit lacking in the "just cut a damn release already!" > area. I thought I'd just grab the source and compile it a few minutes ago before I last replied, but I can't easily see a link to the tarball or a repo to snarf the latest and compile. Links would be appreciated, as I would really like to seriously consider PCB and/or KiCAD for larger board work. > > Not click-click trivial, no. If memory serves, you have to select > the trace, and execute a function by name to change its width. Yeah, I found it under "Select" > > Yeah that's pretty old snapshot by now. I'm not sure why the later > stuff isn't more readily known to those not on the mailing lists. That is a shame. I don't want to have to subscribe or troll the list just to know where the latest source tree is. > > Welllll...I'm not sure I agree with your assertion that peoples' > expectations are changing. PCB design is a developing art, but it's > not moving THAT quickly. I use pretty much the same techniques with > PCB on a Sun Ray terminal backed by a big multiprocessor Sun as I did > on a huge desk-based Calay system in 1988. I'm thinking the young whippersnappers like me, who are used to right click context menus, click and drag everything, toolbars and cute icon buttons on the left/right/top/etc. You know, the spoiled brats of this hobby :-) (I'll defend myself in that I can install and run Linux here, it runs the entire home network, I can compile from source, I love VI, and I must have CYGWIN tooling on my Windows box... But, I'm all that AND a spoiled Windows brat.) Jim From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Feb 17 23:48:57 2010 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 22:48:57 -0700 Subject: Solderless breadboarding In-Reply-To: <4B7C5257.25910.2D40770@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4affc5e1002171719k26664404ga43a276a78d09ed2@mail.gmail.com> <4B7C5257.25910.2D40770@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4B7CD4C9.6070707@jetnet.ab.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote: > I remember my dad showing me that he still remembered how to > breadboard--on a nice piece of shellacked pine, using 14 AWG sold > copper wire and UV201A's and plenty of woodscrews. It was a thing of > beauty. Well fire up that puppy and see how it sounds! > --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Thu Feb 18 00:03:48 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 22:03:48 -0800 Subject: Solderless breadboarding In-Reply-To: <4B7CD4C9.6070707@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4affc5e1002171719k26664404ga43a276a78d09ed2@mail.gmail.com>, <4B7C5257.25910.2D40770@cclist.sydex.com>, <4B7CD4C9.6070707@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4B7C67C4.21130.327BA23@cclist.sydex.com> On 17 Feb 2010 at 22:48, Ben wrote: > Chuck Guzis wrote: > > > I remember my dad showing me that he still remembered how to > > breadboard--on a nice piece of shellacked pine, using 14 AWG sold > > copper wire and UV201A's and plenty of woodscrews. It was a thing > > of beauty. > > Well fire up that puppy and see how it sounds! Sadly, I didn't keep it sometime among my house moves. Just goes to demonstrate the power of parental suggestion. I'll always remember Dad for that, even though he's been gone 27 years this July. I mean, he could have showed me how to mine coal or clean septic tanks instead. --Chuck From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Feb 18 01:54:59 2010 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 00:54:59 -0700 Subject: Solderless breadboarding In-Reply-To: <4B7C67C4.21130.327BA23@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4affc5e1002171719k26664404ga43a276a78d09ed2@mail.gmail.com>, <4B7C5257.25910.2D40770@cclist.sydex.com>, <4B7CD4C9.6070707@jetnet.ab.ca> <4B7C67C4.21130.327BA23@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4B7CF253.1000505@jetnet.ab.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote: > Just goes to demonstrate the power of parental suggestion. I'll > always remember Dad for that, even though he's been gone 27 years > this July. I mean, he could have showed me how to mine coal or clean > septic tanks instead. I can imagine you cleaning coal or mining steptic tanks :) > --Chuck Ben. From pontus at Update.UU.SE Thu Feb 18 02:08:15 2010 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 09:08:15 +0100 Subject: Fairlight and VT640 [WAS: Re: VAX graphics] In-Reply-To: <329B4F99-1C81-408A-BBDE-3F3A5285883F@neurotica.com> References: <329B4F99-1C81-408A-BBDE-3F3A5285883F@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20100218080815.GA19682@Update.UU.SE> On Wed, Feb 17, 2010 at 03:40:31PM -0500, Dave McGuire wrote: > > That was called, I think, a "VT640" or something similar. It > wasn't a DEC product. I had one a very long time ago (late 1980s I > think) and it was dead. I don't know where it ended up. > Yes, my googling tells me so :) http://www.fairlightcmi.com/VT640-board-set-eBay-photos.html Was this part of the fairlight synths, maybe a fairlight product? /Pontus From pontus at Update.UU.SE Thu Feb 18 02:18:10 2010 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 09:18:10 +0100 Subject: Fairlight and VT640 [WAS: Re: VAX graphics] In-Reply-To: <20100218080815.GA19682@Update.UU.SE> References: <329B4F99-1C81-408A-BBDE-3F3A5285883F@neurotica.com> <20100218080815.GA19682@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <20100218081810.GB19682@Update.UU.SE> On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 09:08:15AM +0100, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > Yes, my googling tells me so :) > > http://www.fairlightcmi.com/VT640-board-set-eBay-photos.html > > Was this part of the fairlight synths, maybe a fairlight product? > > /Pontus Ah, I was a bit fast to reply. It was made by "Digital Engineering, Inc" here are some pics of the chassi: http://www.fairlightcmi.com/NED-DEC-DE-VT640-terminal-eBay-photos.html /P From c.murray.mccullough at gmail.com Wed Feb 17 03:16:55 2010 From: c.murray.mccullough at gmail.com (Murray McCullough) Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 04:16:55 -0500 Subject: Tubes & Computers of Olden Days Message-ID: Hi, Speaking of tubes, television variety or otherwise, does anyone know if there are any tube-based computers, large or small, still in existence? I saw parts of one a few years ago at the Computer History Museum in Silicon Valley but none that have approached a 'working' unit or sub-unit! Murray-- From cj7285 at comcast.net Wed Feb 17 11:24:22 2010 From: cj7285 at comcast.net (carl hesse) Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 10:24:22 -0700 Subject: Tango Schematic capture, PCB layout and autorouting programs Message-ID: <4B7C2646.5070907@comcast.net> I read a message that you posted at some time or another and got your email from it I am in desperate need of some tango pcb info I have an old copy of tango pcb installed on my comp and some old layouts I desperately need to access/modify I have lost my dongle. Can you tell me where I might purchase one? Or even better: I understand they just shorted some pins on a parallel port connector, any idea what the pinout is? My name is Carl Hesse. I am in denver colorado I would pay reasonably well for pinout info What this means is that I just need to know which pins are shorted or "common" on the dongle any desire to help? From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Thu Feb 18 04:02:21 2010 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 11:02:21 +0100 (CET) Subject: VMware appliances In-Reply-To: <732890.43036.qm@web83916.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <624966d61002161340u1f99ad42i480171e6d69b59fe@mail.gmail.com> <20100217085721.GC42212@plum.flirble.org> <11EE8EEC-EC70-4994-8706-1CEC118F9A1C@neurotica.com> <201002170831.16469.pat@computer-refuge.org> <877010.89483.qm@web83913.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <732890.43036.qm@web83916.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 17 Feb 2010, geoffrey oltmans wrote: > Really? I thought it allowed some access to real hardware. The problem with VMs is that there is no access to real hardware at all, everything's virtualized. There may be an exception for USB devices, but neither VirtualBox nor KVM/qemu map real hardware in a 1:1 fashion. > I haven't needed it personally, so I wouldn't know. I'd like to use a scanner with Windows-only software, for example. Christian From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Thu Feb 18 04:16:00 2010 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 11:16:00 +0100 (CET) Subject: Tubes (was OT: Televisions) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 17 Feb 2010, Tony Duell wrote: > Some of the tuning indicators (Magic Eyes, Eye Tubes) are getting harder to > find now. Was that beam-=switching pentode ever used in FM Tuners in the I was very surprised when I was shown a new (*not* NOS) EM80. They are currently being produces somewhere in the Eastern block, and they are sold for 10 EUR here. I'd like to have new EM4, EM34 and UM4 (and more, of course ;-) Christian From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Thu Feb 18 04:21:39 2010 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 11:21:39 +0100 (CET) Subject: VAX graphics In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 17 Feb 2010, Tony Duell wrote: >> That was called, I think, a "VT640" or something similar. It >> wasn't a DEC product. I had one a very long time ago (late 1980s I >> think) and it was dead. I don't know where it ended up. > > It was partly a DEC product :-). The chassis,case, keyboard PSU, bideo > board and logic board were all stock DEC parts. There was a paddleboard > (non-DEC) in that bridging edge connector that intercepts the lines to > the RS232 conenctor. And another board full of chips (including IIRC a > Z80) to do the graphics. > > I assumed from the name that this board could be retro-fitted into a > stock VT100. I have a VT100 with a Selenar Graphics 100 board, but I'm still lacking a manual (especially a serivce manual). Christian From innfoclassics at gmail.com Thu Feb 18 04:30:04 2010 From: innfoclassics at gmail.com (Paxton Hoag) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 02:30:04 -0800 Subject: Tubes & Computers of Olden Days In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > ?Speaking of tubes, television variety or otherwise, does anyone know > if there are any tube-based computers, large or small, still in > existence? > I saw parts of one a few years ago at the Computer History Museum in > Silicon Valley but none that have approached a 'working' unit or > sub-unit! Paul Pierce in Portland Oregon has a IBM 709. I think it is complete but hasn't run in decades. In 1989 or 1990 it was stored in a warehouse which we rented part of. Now he has his own building. http://www.piercefuller.com/collect/index.html Paxton Hoag Astoria, OR USA From emu at e-bbes.com Thu Feb 18 07:34:25 2010 From: emu at e-bbes.com (e.stiebler) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 06:34:25 -0700 Subject: HP-IB, Amigo/cs80 was Re: hp 9153 floppy & disk In-Reply-To: <77A7FBBC-2099-4F9D-81BD-111BFD32A926@neurotica.com> References: <4B7B0F8A.8050109@jbrain.com> <4B7B42E7.3040804@verizon.net> <9E587AD2-62C4-4521-B230-509F071CCC51@neurotica.com> <4B7CBD5B.90805@jbrain.com> <90520887-9D8A-4589-B5AB-D8E5028D15B9@neurotica.com> <4B7CC8BE.4010206@jbrain.com> <77A7FBBC-2099-4F9D-81BD-111BFD32A926@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4B7D41E1.400@e-bbes.com> Dave McGuire wrote: > Eagle is pretty powerful, and is pretty much the "standard" for > low-end development and smaller boards. PCB is geared toward larger > stuff. You don't sit down and whack out a board in an hour in PCB...but > you don't design an entire (big) computer in Eagle. Sorry, disagree here. We did pretty large boards with eagle. One was controller for a laser printer, transputers, DRAM, v25, size a little bigger then a legal paper. And it was pretty easy. Have also Orcad PCB Designer here, but eagle is much faster. And if you can send .brd file to pcb manufacturer, it saves time again. Cheers From marvin at west.net Thu Feb 18 07:40:35 2010 From: marvin at west.net (Marvin Johnston) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 05:40:35 -0800 Subject: Teaching soldering skills Message-ID: <4B7D4353.8000008@west.net> > On 2/17/10, Tony Duell wrote: >>> >> From trying to teach soldering, the >>> >> unforgiving nature leads to student frustration. >> > >> > I am suprised. I've taught dozens of people to solder over the years, and >> > every one had success within half an hour. > > More particularly, I've taught several people over the past few months > how to solder at a few workshops. I've had mixed results. All were > enthusiastic, but not all were, in the old vernacular, "mechanically > inclined". A friend of mine was a 3rd grade teacher, and one or two of us would go in and help them build code practice oscillators. We really didn't have much trouble with solder joints after we showed them how to preheat the joint and apply the solder. The biggest problem at first was getting them to touch the tip to the joint long enough to heat it to the point the solder would melt when applied. The second biggest problem was getting them to realize that the color codes on the resistors actually meant something as to where they were inserted :). From roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk Thu Feb 18 08:35:32 2010 From: roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk (Roger Holmes) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 14:35:32 +0000 Subject: BBC S.E. news classic computer feature In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I'll keep this short, if you are in S.E. England my 1962 mainframe will be on BBC S.E. regional news somewhere between 6:30 and 7pm. From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Feb 18 08:41:35 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 09:41:35 -0500 Subject: VMware appliances In-Reply-To: References: <624966d61002161340u1f99ad42i480171e6d69b59fe@mail.gmail.com> <20100217085721.GC42212@plum.flirble.org> <11EE8EEC-EC70-4994-8706-1CEC118F9A1C@neurotica.com> <201002170831.16469.pat@computer-refuge.org> <877010.89483.qm@web83913.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <732890.43036.qm@web83916.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <2B7329C0-6A20-4994-A5F2-09141376E4C5@neurotica.com> On Feb 18, 2010, at 5:02 AM, Christian Corti wrote: >> Really? I thought it allowed some access to real hardware. > > The problem with VMs is that there is no access to real hardware at > all, everything's virtualized. There may be an exception for USB > devices, but neither VirtualBox nor KVM/qemu map real hardware in a > 1:1 fashion. VMware can, FYI. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From jbmcb1 at gmail.com Thu Feb 18 09:37:20 2010 From: jbmcb1 at gmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 10:37:20 -0500 Subject: VMware appliances In-Reply-To: <2B7329C0-6A20-4994-A5F2-09141376E4C5@neurotica.com> References: <624966d61002161340u1f99ad42i480171e6d69b59fe@mail.gmail.com> <20100217085721.GC42212@plum.flirble.org> <11EE8EEC-EC70-4994-8706-1CEC118F9A1C@neurotica.com> <201002170831.16469.pat@computer-refuge.org> <877010.89483.qm@web83913.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <732890.43036.qm@web83916.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <2B7329C0-6A20-4994-A5F2-09141376E4C5@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <5f7d1b0e1002180737y59c0d7caqf44ddc9b0f09fd76@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 9:41 AM, Dave McGuire wrote: > > VMware can, FYI. It can directly access serial, parallel, USB and SCSI devices, I believe. From christian_liendo at yahoo.com Thu Feb 18 10:08:13 2010 From: christian_liendo at yahoo.com (Christian Liendo) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 08:08:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: Guy is building a 68k based CP/M machine from scratch In-Reply-To: <624966d61002161340u1f99ad42i480171e6d69b59fe@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <379444.59472.qm@web113507.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> http://bitsnbikes.blogspot.com/2010/02/next-project-minimal-cpm-68k.html From silvercreekvalley at yahoo.com Thu Feb 18 10:19:48 2010 From: silvercreekvalley at yahoo.com (silvercreekvalley) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 08:19:48 -0800 (PST) Subject: Looking for Aztec C Message-ID: <526622.93593.qm@web56202.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Does anyone have a copy of Aztec C for the Apple // that they wouldnt mind selling. Looking for an original copy. Please reply off list. Thanks! Ian From keithvz at verizon.net Thu Feb 18 10:21:07 2010 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 11:21:07 -0500 Subject: VMware appliances In-Reply-To: <2B7329C0-6A20-4994-A5F2-09141376E4C5@neurotica.com> References: <624966d61002161340u1f99ad42i480171e6d69b59fe@mail.gmail.com> <20100217085721.GC42212@plum.flirble.org> <11EE8EEC-EC70-4994-8706-1CEC118F9A1C@neurotica.com> <201002170831.16469.pat@computer-refuge.org> <877010.89483.qm@web83913.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <732890.43036.qm@web83916.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <2B7329C0-6A20-4994-A5F2-09141376E4C5@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4B7D68F3.1070505@verizon.net> Dave McGuire wrote: > On Feb 18, 2010, at 5:02 AM, Christian Corti wrote: >>> Really? I thought it allowed some access to real hardware. >> >> The problem with VMs is that there is no access to real hardware at >> all, everything's virtualized. There may be an exception for USB >> devices, but neither VirtualBox nor KVM/qemu map real hardware in a >> 1:1 fashion. > > VMware can, FYI. > > -Dave > I hate to agree with Dave (grin), but yes, you have access to pretty much all of the standard hardware and ports. Most of what I've used has been USB based. Someone asked about scanners, yes, this definitely works. You select a pull down menu to "connect" the hardware to the VM. When you are done using it, you uncheck the option, and then the host has access to the hardware again. This is true for USB devices, CD/DVD burners, etc. While there are better options, I had a USB flash drive connected to the VM, copied some files, connected back to the host, and now the drive shows up in host. Interesting because you are moving data from one place to another via some hardware on exactly the same machine. This process generally just works. Keith From oltmansg at bellsouth.net Thu Feb 18 10:27:50 2010 From: oltmansg at bellsouth.net (geoffrey oltmans) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 08:27:50 -0800 (PST) Subject: VMware appliances In-Reply-To: <4B7D68F3.1070505@verizon.net> References: <624966d61002161340u1f99ad42i480171e6d69b59fe@mail.gmail.com> <20100217085721.GC42212@plum.flirble.org> <11EE8EEC-EC70-4994-8706-1CEC118F9A1C@neurotica.com> <201002170831.16469.pat@computer-refuge.org> <877010.89483.qm@web83913.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <732890.43036.qm@web83916.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <2B7329C0-6A20-4994-A5F2-09141376E4C5@neurotica.com> <4B7D68F3.1070505@verizon.net> Message-ID: <226523.84525.qm@web83911.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> VirtualBox allows access to USB devices as well, and I think you can allow it raw access to an IDE/SATA drive, but apart from that I don't know what else it will allow. ________________________________ From: Keith To: General at olddell.com; On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Sent: Thu, February 18, 2010 10:21:07 AM Subject: Re: VMware appliances Dave McGuire wrote: > On Feb 18, 2010, at 5:02 AM, Christian Corti wrote: >>> Really? I thought it allowed some access to real hardware. >> >> The problem with VMs is that there is no access to real hardware at all, everything's virtualized. There may be an exception for USB devices, but neither VirtualBox nor KVM/qemu map real hardware in a 1:1 fashion. > > VMware can, FYI. > > -Dave > I hate to agree with Dave (grin), but yes, you have access to pretty much all of the standard hardware and ports. Most of what I've used has been USB based. Someone asked about scanners, yes, this definitely works. You select a pull down menu to "connect" the hardware to the VM. When you are done using it, you uncheck the option, and then the host has access to the hardware again. This is true for USB devices, CD/DVD burners, etc. While there are better options, I had a USB flash drive connected to the VM, copied some files, connected back to the host, and now the drive shows up in host. Interesting because you are moving data from one place to another via some hardware on exactly the same machine. This process generally just works. Keith From IanK at vulcan.com Thu Feb 18 10:28:53 2010 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 08:28:53 -0800 Subject: Tubes & Computers of Olden Days In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: I've visited Paul's collection fairly recently and in addition to the 709, which is complete, he has several machines of that vintage. Then there's Roger Holmes with his ICT 1301. He's posted links to YouTube videos of it on this list in just the past week or two -- Ian ________________________________________ From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Paxton Hoag [innfoclassics at gmail.com] Sent: Thursday, February 18, 2010 2:30 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Tubes & Computers of Olden Days > Speaking of tubes, television variety or otherwise, does anyone know > if there are any tube-based computers, large or small, still in > existence? > I saw parts of one a few years ago at the Computer History Museum in > Silicon Valley but none that have approached a 'working' unit or > sub-unit! Paul Pierce in Portland Oregon has a IBM 709. I think it is complete but hasn't run in decades. In 1989 or 1990 it was stored in a warehouse which we rented part of. Now he has his own building. http://www.piercefuller.com/collect/index.html Paxton Hoag Astoria, OR USA From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Thu Feb 18 10:50:23 2010 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 11:50:23 -0500 Subject: Deep fried inductor... Message-ID: I've recently been restoring an H8/H17 system. Almost all of the problems involved capacitors, including a bad electrolytic in the H17 (diskette unit) power supply. I repaired the H17 supply using a dummy load but apparently the H17 was run with the bad supply before I got it. I say this because some of the tantalum caps on the logic boards of the Wangco model 82 diskette drives popped and/or burned when correct power was supplied to them. I've seen plenty of the "teardrop" tantalums pop, but I've never seen one of the "black suppository" types (used on these drives) go. I believe this was the result of bad ripple in the supply. Anyway, one of the Wangcos now runs perfectly and the other runs fine for a while but fails after about an hour of applied power. The difference between the two is that, on the flaky drive, a cap in series with an inductor did a slow burn, resulting in the inductor having a "nice brown toasty" appearance and a small split in one side that some red resin leaked from. By the way, the only way I know this is an inductor is that it is labeled "L5". It looks like a large beige resistor with too many color stripes on it. Inductors are a weak area in my electronics knowledge. How would you know for sure that one has failed? Does it fail open? Other info: When the drive fails, it can not read any data and, when seeks are attempted on it, it sounds "funny", not the nice sharp click it makes when operating correctly. The inductor does not feel hot to the touch when the drive has failed. I'm out of cool spray. Tonight I will try to apply an ice cube in a plastic bag to it to see if that gets it out of failure mode. Finally, assuming it is the problem, what do I need to replace it? The stripes on it are: Wide silver (covering one end) Red Yellow Brown Gold Thanks, Bill From mtapley at swri.edu Thu Feb 18 09:57:38 2010 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 09:57:38 -0600 Subject: Soldering (Was: Re: HP-IB, Amigo/cs80 ... ) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 15:26 -0600 2/17/10, Tony wrote: >What I don;t get is _why_ there's this aversion to soldering. I get it. Fumes requiring ventilation, molten metal, temperatures that can sear flesh or melt most plastics, the appearance if not fact of irreversability (and in fact, it's not hard to do damage to the circuit board that is hard to repair). Like bicycling, cooking, and a host of other activities, it's a very productive and useful skill to have, and seems to those who have the skill to be trivial to learn - but to those without the skill, it's intimidating (partly because there is some potential for damage if it's done wrong). I think this is a good case where mentoring or tutoring would *really* help people who have not done it to "get their feet wet", and have the confidence to do more on their own. -- - Mark 210-379-4635 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Large Asteroids headed toward planets inhabited by beings that don't have technology adequate to stop them: Think of it as Evolution in Fast-Forward. From cclist at sydex.com Thu Feb 18 10:58:10 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 08:58:10 -0800 Subject: Tango Schematic capture, PCB layout and autorouting programs In-Reply-To: <4B7C2646.5070907@comcast.net> References: <4B7C2646.5070907@comcast.net> Message-ID: <4B7D0122.11512.5FC0C1@cclist.sydex.com> On 17 Feb 2010 at 10:24, carl hesse wrote: > I read a message that you posted at some time or another and got your > email from it I am in desperate need of some tango pcb info I have an > old copy of tango pcb installed on my comp and some old layouts I > desperately need to access/modify I have lost my dongle. Can you tell > me where I might purchase one? Or even better: I understand they just > shorted some pins on a parallel port connector, any idea what the > pinout is? My name is Carl Hesse. I am in denver colorado There was a "Tango Crack" TSR workaround for this. See: http://www.jumpjet.info/DOS_Lives/06/Applications.htm I make no representations for the legality or correctness for any of this. --Chuck From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Feb 18 11:01:18 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 12:01:18 -0500 Subject: Tubes & Computers of Olden Days In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > ?Speaking of tubes, television variety or otherwise, does anyone know > if there are any tube-based computers, large or small, still in > existence? > I saw parts of one a few years ago at the Computer History Museum in > Silicon Valley but none that have approached a 'working' unit or > sub-unit! I have never done an accurate study, but I think the count is somewhere around 25 tube computers still around in this world. I do not think any in the US are running, but I think there may be a running machine in the UK. The chances of more tube computers coming out of the woodwork is very, very slim, but it has happened in the past few years. It is actually reasonable to think that someone could have an IBM 650 or Bendix G-15 tucked away in a basement or garage. -- Will From cclist at sydex.com Thu Feb 18 11:04:41 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 09:04:41 -0800 Subject: Deep fried inductor... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B7D02A9.1347.65B7FA@cclist.sydex.com> On 18 Feb 2010 at 11:50, Bill Sudbrink wrote: > Inductors are a weak area in my electronics knowledge. How would you > know for sure that one has failed? Does it fail open? They can fail open, or if toasted, can fail shorted. Regardless, it's easy enough to replace one--and that's what I'd do anyway, before goofing around much more. You have a 240 uH 5% one, by the color codes. --Chuck From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Feb 18 11:15:01 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 12:15:01 -0500 Subject: Deep fried inductor... In-Reply-To: <4B7D02A9.1347.65B7FA@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4B7D02A9.1347.65B7FA@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > They can fail open, or if toasted, can fail shorted. ?Regardless, > it's easy enough to replace one--and that's what I'd do anyway, > before goofing around much more. With a small choke of this value, internal shorts are almost never fatal. The inductance may go down, due to one of the layers of windings getting taken out of the circuit. A short that bypasses a majority of the windings is extremely rare. Still, a minor short can mess things up. -- Will From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Thu Feb 18 11:23:24 2010 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 09:23:24 -0800 Subject: Tubes & Computers of Olden Days References: Message-ID: <4B7D778D.8FE9FAC@cs.ubc.ca> Murray McCullough wrote: > > Speaking of tubes, television variety or otherwise, does anyone know > if there are any tube-based computers, large or small, still in > existence? > I saw parts of one a few years ago at the Computer History Museum in > Silicon Valley but none that have approached a 'working' unit or > sub-unit! I should think it would well be possible to get those remaining accumulators from ENIAC working again in some sort of counter/display mode. The Smithsonian has a couple I believe, does the CHM have any of them? With that said, I also understand the priority - particularly of the Smithsonian - is presumably to preserve them in original condition rather than repair/muck-around with them. Apologies to those who have heard me mention them here too often, but to (help) satisfy my interest in tube-digital equipment I maintain some old tube-based frequency counters (~100 tubes). From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Feb 18 11:25:13 2010 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 09:25:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: Tubes & Computers of Olden Days In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 18 Feb 2010, William Donzelli wrote: > > The chances of more tube computers coming out of the woodwork is very, > very slim, but it has happened in the past few years. It is actually > reasonable to think that someone could have an IBM 650 or Bendix G-15 > tucked away in a basement or garage. > Here's one that last I heard was in service with the RAF: http://199.254.199.10/BehindTheScenes/lockheed.html The company that owned it was bankrupted by the training market downturn after 9/11. It was sold in 2003. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Feb 18 11:46:36 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 09:46:36 -0800 (PST) Subject: Soldering (Was: Re: HP-IB, Amigo/cs80 ... ) In-Reply-To: from Mark Tapley at "Feb 18, 10 09:57:38 am" Message-ID: <201002181746.o1IHkavm013256@floodgap.com> > >What I don;t get is _why_ there's this aversion to soldering. > > I get it. Fumes requiring ventilation, molten metal, > temperatures that can sear flesh or melt most plastics, the > appearance if not fact of irreversability (and in fact, it's not hard > to do damage to the circuit board that is hard to repair). Like > bicycling, cooking, and a host of other activities, it's a very > productive and useful skill to have, and seems to those who have the > skill to be trivial to learn - but to those without the skill, it's > intimidating (partly because there is some potential for damage if > it's done wrong). Excellently put. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Diamonds are forever. ------------------------------------------------------ From dkelvey at hotmail.com Thu Feb 18 11:53:22 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 09:53:22 -0800 Subject: Deep fried inductor... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Deep fried inductor... > Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 11:50:23 -0500 > ---snip--- > > Inductors are a weak area in my electronics knowledge. How would > you know for sure that one has failed? Does it fail open? > > Other info: When the drive fails, it can not read any data and, > when seeks are attempted on it, it sounds "funny", not the nice > sharp click it makes when operating correctly. The inductor does > not feel hot to the touch when the drive has failed. I'm out of > cool spray. Tonight I will try to apply an ice cube in a plastic > bag to it to see if that gets it out of failure mode. > > Finally, assuming it is the problem, what do I need to replace it? > The stripes on it are: > > Wide silver (covering one end) > Red > Yellow > Brown > Gold > > Thanks, > Bill Hi The inductor is most likely a PS filter the analog paths. Although, I'd measure it in a bridge before replacing it, it is most likely not the problem you are seeing. As a filter, it is unlikely to cause too much problems if short, as these circuits are often over designed there. They rarely are temperature sensitive at the level you are seeing. If it is not getting hot, it is unlikely to be effected by operation time. It is more likely something failing in the stepper control. You might also check to see if things are well lubricated ( no old grease ). Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail: Trusted email with powerful SPAM protection. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/201469227/direct/01/ From cclist at sydex.com Thu Feb 18 12:04:43 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 10:04:43 -0800 Subject: Soldering (Was: Re: HP-IB, Amigo/cs80 ... ) In-Reply-To: <201002181746.o1IHkavm013256@floodgap.com> References: from Mark Tapley at "Feb 18, 10 09:57:38 am", <201002181746.o1IHkavm013256@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <4B7D10BB.22330.9CAF63@cclist.sydex.com> On 18 Feb 2010 at 9:46, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > I get it. Fumes requiring ventilation, molten metal, > > temperatures that can sear flesh or melt most plastics, the > > appearance if not fact of irreversability (and in fact, it's not > > hard to do damage to the circuit board that is hard to repair). Like > > bicycling, cooking, and a host of other activities, it's a very > > productive and useful skill to have, and seems to those who have the > > skill to be trivial to learn - but to those without the skill, it's > > intimidating (partly because there is some potential for damage if > > it's done wrong). > > Excellently put. Soldering now is far safer than it used to be. I can still recall the glorious sensation of picking up an American Beauty 100W soldering iron by the wrong end. I suppose that we should be thankful that we don't use an oxyacetylene torch for PCB work... --Chuck From pat at computer-refuge.org Thu Feb 18 12:43:35 2010 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 13:43:35 -0500 Subject: Soldering (Was: Re: HP-IB, Amigo/cs80 ... ) In-Reply-To: <4B7D10BB.22330.9CAF63@cclist.sydex.com> References: <201002181746.o1IHkavm013256@floodgap.com> <4B7D10BB.22330.9CAF63@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <201002181343.35825.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Thursday 18 February 2010, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Soldering now is far safer than it used to be. I can still recall > the glorious sensation of picking up an American Beauty 100W > soldering iron by the wrong end. > > I suppose that we should be thankful that we don't use an > oxyacetylene torch for PCB work... Speak for yourself! How else am I supposed to heat up the brick that I use to solder? Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Feb 18 12:47:08 2010 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 10:47:08 -0800 Subject: Device Side usb floppy interface finally shipping ($55) Message-ID: <4B7D8B2C.3060905@bitsavers.org> http://www.deviceside.com/ talked to this guy at VCF years ago. From ian_primus at yahoo.com Thu Feb 18 13:25:21 2010 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 11:25:21 -0800 (PST) Subject: Device Side usb floppy interface finally shipping ($55) In-Reply-To: <4B7D8B2C.3060905@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <954247.22303.qm@web52601.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- On Thu, 2/18/10, Al Kossow wrote: > > http://www.deviceside.com/ > > talked to this guy at VCF years ago. > Now this is quite cool. And he even cleverly priced the device at $55.25... Now, I wonder how long until he has *writing* to disks supported? -Ian From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Thu Feb 18 13:43:53 2010 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 20:43:53 +0100 Subject: Getting to dislike tantalum caps In-Reply-To: <9B2E6ED2-984E-45A0-B636-452867A1BBA5@neurotica.com> References: <17641.39335.qm@web110403.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4B759AF5.3080709@garlic.com> <4B7538D3.20133.94F368@cclist.sydex.com> <20100214210109.55d3f895.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <9B2E6ED2-984E-45A0-B636-452867A1BBA5@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20100218204353.75481457.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Sun, 14 Feb 2010 15:27:34 -0500 Dave McGuire wrote: > It's not an urban legend, unfortunately: > > http://www.neurotica.com/misc/chinese_capacitor.jpg > > I didn't take that picture, but I've seen it with my own eyes. I know that picture. I should print it out and hang it on the wall at work. Well be much fun. :-) But that chinese capacitor is somthing different then caps with electrolyte that make them fail. > Other crap that happened was the fun of 2003 when capacitor > manufacturers starting making electrolytic capacitors using stolen > electrolyte formula that was incomplete. I thought the industrial espionage story was an urban legend. > >> There was one chemical manufacturer pinpointed, > >> that was supplying XR7 or whatever electrolyte to all the > >> manufacturers. > > > > X7R is a ceramic dielectric. It has nothing to do with electrolyte > > capacitors. Even cheap X7R capacitors are far more reliable then > > electrolyte capacitors. > > X7R is an EIA-198 specification that defines electrical and > thermal behaviors of ceramic capacitors, not a type of dielectric > material. For sure. I know. The point is: X7R specifies _ceramic_ dielectric where the OP talked about _electrolyte_. -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Feb 18 13:56:26 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 14:56:26 -0500 Subject: Device Side usb floppy interface finally shipping ($55) In-Reply-To: <954247.22303.qm@web52601.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <954247.22303.qm@web52601.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Feb 18, 2010, at 2:25 PM, Mr Ian Primus wrote: >> http://www.deviceside.com/ >> >> talked to this guy at VCF years ago. > > Now this is quite cool. And he even cleverly priced the device at > $55.25... > > Now, I wonder how long until he has *writing* to disks supported? Me too. I'd have ordered one right now if it could write. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From brianlanning at gmail.com Thu Feb 18 14:00:05 2010 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 14:00:05 -0600 Subject: Device Side usb floppy interface finally shipping ($55) In-Reply-To: References: <954247.22303.qm@web52601.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6dbe3c381002181200v6a687815gd0c158a0d45d0b5@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 1:56 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On Feb 18, 2010, at 2:25 PM, Mr Ian Primus wrote: > >> http://www.deviceside.com/ >>> >>> talked to this guy at VCF years ago. >>> >> >> Now this is quite cool. And he even cleverly priced the device at >> $55.25... >> >> Now, I wonder how long until he has *writing* to disks supported? >> > > Me too. I'd have ordered one right now if it could write. > > -Dave > I have a catweasel and it still can't write to apple 2e floppy disks. Hopefully, this one will get write support shortly. brian From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Thu Feb 18 14:04:27 2010 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 21:04:27 +0100 Subject: Getting to dislike tantalum caps In-Reply-To: References: <17641.39335.qm@web110403.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4B759AF5.3080709@garlic.com> <4B7538D3.20133.94F368@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20100218210427.a17eac4c.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Sun, 14 Feb 2010 15:51:03 -0600 Geoff Oltmans wrote: > I hate capacitors period. If only we could get rid of the buggers. :) Inductance + gyrator. ;-) -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Feb 18 14:07:58 2010 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 13:07:58 -0700 Subject: Soldering (Was: Re: HP-IB, Amigo/cs80 ... ) In-Reply-To: <4B7D10BB.22330.9CAF63@cclist.sydex.com> References: from Mark Tapley at "Feb 18, 10 09:57:38 am", <201002181746.o1IHkavm013256@floodgap.com> <4B7D10BB.22330.9CAF63@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4B7D9E1E.8030308@jetnet.ab.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote: > Soldering now is far safer than it used to be. I can still recall > the glorious sensation of picking up an American Beauty 100W > soldering iron by the wrong end. > > I suppose that we should be thankful that we don't use an > oxyacetylene torch for PCB work... I guess that is why BYTE[1] went from a hardware magazine to software. > --Chuck I think it still may found in "The best of byte magazine: vol 1". Title something like: "Using surplus TTL". Ben. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Feb 18 13:03:04 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 19:03:04 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Solderless breadboarding (was: Re: HP-IB, Amigo/cs80 was Re: hp 9153 In-Reply-To: <4affc5e1002171719k26664404ga43a276a78d09ed2@mail.gmail.com> from "Joachim Thiemann" at Feb 17, 10 08:19:17 pm Message-ID: > > On Wed, Feb 17, 2010 at 13:49, Tony Duell wrote: > > The main problem is that those breadboard are terrible. It's not the > > clock speed that matters, it's the swtiching time of the IC. Most modern > > ICs have ouptus that switch so fast that when you combine them with the > > stray capacitances on the breadboard and the relatively high impedance > > power connections, you get power and ground lines bouncing all over the > > place. Without a _good_ 'scope it's impossible to know why your circuit > > doesn't work. If you stick to 4000 series CMOS you'll be alright, but > > modern 74xxx familes are pushing it. Really pushing it. > > But if you're just learning high speed don't matter, even with full > computer prototypes. Incidentally, I just saw this: YEs it does!. As I said, it's not the clock rate, it's the switching tiem and slew rate of the IC. And you can't get 'slow' ICs any more easily. Even things like GALx cna be touchy. You cna get them to work on a sodlerless breadboard, but it's not always trivial. The thing is that experienced electornics hackers know what to look for, and know what is going to give problems. Beginners don't. They're going to have problems. > http://blog.makezine.com/archive/2010/02/building_a_cpm_68k_computer_from_sc.html > > Crazy, but I'm cheering for him! Retrotastic! :-) Oh but WHY??? I don't want to discourge people from hacking, and making a 68K computer (I beleive it's a 68008 processor, given the 48 pin package) is certainly a fun project. But anyone who is interested enough to want to do that, and has the abilities to design it, is capable of learning to solder. Period. My guess is that if you knock the table, at least one connection will momentarily break, and the thing will crash. Built it on stripboard, with the same rats nest of wires, and it'll probably work reliably. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Feb 18 13:10:28 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 19:10:28 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Solderless breadboarding (was: Re: HP-IB, In-Reply-To: <4B7C5257.25910.2D40770@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Feb 17, 10 08:32:23 pm Message-ID: > > On 17 Feb 2010 at 20:19, Joachim Thiemann wrote: > > > But if you're just learning high speed don't matter, even with full > > computer prototypes. Incidentally, I just saw this: > > http://blog.makezine.com/archive/2010/02/building_a_cpm_68k_computer_f > > rom_sc.html > > Okay, I know that some folks assemble jigsaw puzzles and glue them to > a substrate when finished so they can be used as hanging art. And I > suppose it's possible to glue playing cards together in case one > wants to prove that he built an impossibly huge structure with them. There are plenty of stuctures you can build with glued playing cards that are not self-supporting. So having a glued structure doens't prove you made it without glue first. > > But how does one preserve this kind of thing constructed on a > wireless breadboard? Pour potting resin all over it? Put it under > glass? Do not putt potting compound on it. It's almost certain some will 'wick' into the contacts and cause them to go open. It'll never work again. The best way to preserve it is, of course, to solder it up on a bit of stripboard. > > I remember my dad showing me that he still remembered how to > breadboard--on a nice piece of shellacked pine, using 14 AWG sold > copper wire and UV201A's and plenty of woodscrews. It was a thing of > beauty. You really do want to read the 'Impoverished Radio Experimenter' books. You still build real bradboards in there, valves in screew-termianl octal relay sockets, home-wound coils, etc. Oj, bnt you do ahve to solder some of the connections :-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Feb 18 12:46:37 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 18:46:37 +0000 (GMT) Subject: HP-IB, Amigo/cs80 was Re: hp 9153 floppy & disk In-Reply-To: <201002172134.o1HLYFgo015316@floodgap.com> from "Cameron Kaiser" at Feb 17, 10 01:34:14 pm Message-ID: > > > What I don;t get is _why_ there's this aversion to soldering. > > I don't care for it either. I'm sure I would get better at it if I Could you elaborate, please. What peoblems do you have? My expeirence of teaching others to solder is that the first problem are those who've read the typical hobbyist books/articles which warn about putting too much oslder on the joint and forming a 'bridge'. As a result they put far too little solder on and don't make a conneciton at all. The second common problem is dirty/oxidised components or PCB tracks. Flux will only go so far in cleaning things up. When soldering to untinned boards (e.g. stripboard), I often rub it over with 1000 grit wet-n-dry paper. The soldering iron is there only to heat the joint. It is not there to carry or 'paste' solder. You 'tim' the iron with a little oslder to improve the heat conduction, then use the iron to heat the parts you want to solder. And melt the solder onto the joint, not onto the iron. Another common problem is that the iron is simply not powerful enough. This is comoon if yuo are trying to solder (or worse desolder) on multi-layer PCBs with internal power and ground planes and there aren't 'thermal breaks' etched into said plains. It is almost impossible to solder such connections with a non-temparature-controlled iron. > practised regularly, but I only have a limited need to build certain items > at certain intervals. Solderless techniques are hella more convenient. I don;t deny that solderless techniques are great -- if they work reliably. Wire-wrappiong is fine. IDC connectors are fine (if you get good ones) -- but they're a right pain to fit if you want anything other than the 'standard' order of wires in the cable. In other words, it's easy to fit a DB25 connector onoto a bit of ribbon cable, but more trouble than it's worth to cut and swap round wires to make a null modem. But if the solderless technique adds problems of its own (poor connections , excessive 'strays', etc) then you're better off soldering it. It'll be a lot quicker in the end. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Feb 18 14:21:04 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 20:21:04 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Deep fried inductor... In-Reply-To: from "Bill Sudbrink" at Feb 18, 10 11:50:23 am Message-ID: > > I've recently been restoring an H8/H17 system. Almost all of > the problems involved capacitors, including a bad electrolytic > in the H17 (diskette unit) power supply. I repaired the H17 > supply using a dummy load but apparently the H17 was run with > the bad supply before I got it. I say this because some of the > tantalum caps on the logic boards of the Wangco model 82 diskette > drives popped and/or burned when correct power was supplied to > them. I've seen plenty of the "teardrop" tantalums pop, but I've > never seen one of the "black suppository" types (used on these > drives) go. I believe this was the result of bad ripple in the > supply. > > Anyway, one of the Wangcos now runs perfectly and the other runs > fine for a while but fails after about an hour of applied power. > The difference between the two is that, on the flaky drive, a cap > in series with an inductor did a slow burn, resulting in the > inductor having a "nice brown toasty" appearance and a small split > in one side that some red resin leaked from. By the way, the only > way I know this is an inductor is that it is labeled "L5". It > looks like a large beige resistor with too many color stripes on it. > > Inductors are a weak area in my electronics knowledge. How would > you know for sure that one has failed? Does it fail open? > > Other info: When the drive fails, it can not read any data and, > when seeks are attempted on it, it sounds "funny", not the nice > sharp click it makes when operating correctly. The inductor does > not feel hot to the touch when the drive has failed. I'm out of > cool spray. Tonight I will try to apply an ice cube in a plastic > bag to it to see if that gets it out of failure mode. > > Finally, assuming it is the problem, what do I need to replace it? > The stripes on it are: > > Wide silver (covering one end) > Red > Yellow > Brown > Gold > > Thanks, > Bill > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Feb 18 14:22:15 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 20:22:15 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Deep fried inductor... In-Reply-To: from "Bill Sudbrink" at Feb 18, 10 11:50:23 am Message-ID: > > I've recently been restoring an H8/H17 system. Almost all of > the problems involved capacitors, including a bad electrolytic > in the H17 (diskette unit) power supply. I repaired the H17 > supply using a dummy load but apparently the H17 was run with > the bad supply before I got it. I say this because some of the > tantalum caps on the logic boards of the Wangco model 82 diskette > drives popped and/or burned when correct power was supplied to > them. I've seen plenty of the "teardrop" tantalums pop, but I've > never seen one of the "black suppository" types (used on these > drives) go. I believe this was the result of bad ripple in the > supply. Possibly. Or jsut old age. > > Anyway, one of the Wangcos now runs perfectly and the other runs > fine for a while but fails after about an hour of applied power. > The difference between the two is that, on the flaky drive, a cap > in series with an inductor did a slow burn, resulting in the > inductor having a "nice brown toasty" appearance and a small split > in one side that some red resin leaked from. By the way, the only > way I know this is an inductor is that it is labeled "L5". It > looks like a large beige resistor with too many color stripes on it. > > Inductors are a weak area in my electronics knowledge. How would > you know for sure that one has failed? Does it fail open? I';ve never sene an inductor that failes and then works again. Most of the time they fail by burning out (after all, they're jsut a coil of wire on a suitable core), and then they test open. A good one will test as a dead short on most ohmmeters. Sometimes you get shorted turns. A DC test (e.g. an Ohmmeter) will not show this up. The only way is to meastue the inductance and/or the losses. But that's a rare failure mode for small inductors. I'd not worry about it. Just see if it's open or not. > > Other info: When the drive fails, it can not read any data and, > when seeks are attempted on it, it sounds "funny", not the nice > sharp click it makes when operating correctly. The inductor does > not feel hot to the touch when the drive has failed. I'm out of > cool spray. Tonight I will try to apply an ice cube in a plastic > bag to it to see if that gets it out of failure mode. I think you have some other fault here. The inductors on floppy disk drives are normally there for one of 2 purposes. Either as part of an LC resonant circuit in the read filter, or as filtering on the power line to a critcial piece of the circuitry. The fromer is a very low power applicaiton, and it's dificult to see how the inductor could burn out without other components failing spectaculuarly. A power line filter inductor can overheat if the load draws too much current. In this case of course, the inductor is damaged because of a fault elsewhere, and simply replacing the inductor will simply cause the new one to overheat. My guess, thougm, given the intermittany nature of the fault and the fact taht the head positioner is misbehaving, is that you have a problem elsewhere. Do you have scheamtics of the drive? If so, where is L5 in the circuit? > > Finally, assuming it is the problem, what do I need to replace it? > The stripes on it are: > > Wide silver (covering one end) > Red > Yellow > Brown > Gold > Normally you read the colour bands using the obvious code and this gives the value in micorhenries. So you have a 240uH inductor. -tony From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Thu Feb 18 14:49:41 2010 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 12:49:41 -0800 (PST) Subject: Device Side usb floppy interface finally shipping ($55) In-Reply-To: <6dbe3c381002181200v6a687815gd0c158a0d45d0b5@mail.gmail.com> References: <954247.22303.qm@web52601.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <6dbe3c381002181200v6a687815gd0c158a0d45d0b5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 18 Feb 2010, Brian Lanning wrote: > On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 1:56 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > >> On Feb 18, 2010, at 2:25 PM, Mr Ian Primus wrote: >> >>> http://www.deviceside.com/ >>>> >>>> talked to this guy at VCF years ago. >>> >>> Now this is quite cool. And he even cleverly priced the device at >>> $55.25... >>> >>> Now, I wonder how long until he has *writing* to disks supported? >> >> Me too. I'd have ordered one right now if it could write. > > I have a catweasel and it still can't write to apple 2e floppy disks. > Hopefully, this one will get write support shortly. I'm rather disappointed with my catweasel. The hardware is very nifty and full of promise, but drive support is terrible. I wonder what prevents the deviceside gizmo from writing to disks. If that could be added and then extend the thing to handle 3.5" and 8" disks, then I'd be very happy. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From brianlanning at gmail.com Thu Feb 18 14:58:58 2010 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 14:58:58 -0600 Subject: Device Side usb floppy interface finally shipping ($55) In-Reply-To: References: <954247.22303.qm@web52601.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <6dbe3c381002181200v6a687815gd0c158a0d45d0b5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6dbe3c381002181258v3d79de38g70b9b76025ae5fc3@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 2:49 PM, David Griffith wrote: > I'm rather disappointed with my catweasel. The hardware is very nifty and > full of promise, but drive support is terrible. I wonder what prevents the > deviceside gizmo from writing to disks. If that could be added and then > extend the thing to handle 3.5" and 8" disks, then I'd be very happy. > Jens has a habit of outsourcing the software production to other people. Someone else wrote the software that gets distributed with the catweasel. I agree that it's terrible. I asked him whether the source code was available, but apparently it's not. He says that adding read/write support for a new device is easy, yet it never happens. I believe someone has software for linux that support the catweasel. In that case, it would be open source, but I haven't had the time to look into it. brian From jws at jwsss.com Thu Feb 18 12:56:25 2010 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 10:56:25 -0800 Subject: Printronix Message-ID: <4B7D8D59.4060300@jwsss.com> There is a load of printronix printers, and parts coming off service in St. Louis Mo P300 P600 I suspect, if anyone is interested please email me, and I'll pass it along. There is at least one QMS board equipped system involved from what I have been told. Inventory can be made if interest is there. Jim From cclist at sydex.com Thu Feb 18 15:18:18 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 13:18:18 -0800 Subject: Device Side usb floppy interface finally shipping ($55) In-Reply-To: <6dbe3c381002181258v3d79de38g70b9b76025ae5fc3@mail.gmail.com> References: <954247.22303.qm@web52601.mail.re2.yahoo.com>, , <6dbe3c381002181258v3d79de38g70b9b76025ae5fc3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B7D3E1A.3499.14DE75E@cclist.sydex.com> On 18 Feb 2010 at 14:58, Brian Lanning wrote: > On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 2:49 PM, David Griffith > wrote: > > > I'm rather disappointed with my catweasel. The hardware is very > > nifty and full of promise, but drive support is terrible. I wonder > > what prevents the deviceside gizmo from writing to disks. If that > > could be added and then extend the thing to handle 3.5" and 8" > > disks, then I'd be very happy. The big problem that I see with this deviceside widget is that it has limited current drive capability. 8" drives use 150 ohm pullups in their terminators and present a 1 TTL UL. That's asking a lot from a little uC. I'm also not sure how well the device handles the higher densities. > Jens has a habit of outsourcing the software production to other > people. Someone else wrote the software that gets distributed with the > catweasel. I agree that it's terrible. I asked him whether the > source code was available, but apparently it's not. He says that > adding read/write support for a new device is easy, yet it never > happens. I still prefer the simplicity of the CW MK 1 run under DOS. Fully documented and easy to program. Can be made to handle just about anything. When you get to the MK3 and MK4, there has to be provision made in hardware for running on multi-tasking OSes--the CPU can't always be right there to interact with the card. There's no reason that the CW couldn't handle both reading and writting Apple IIe floppies, but Jens comes right out and says that he doesn't write software for these things. So you're depending on the kindness of strangers. The disk encoding format is well- documented in "Understanding the Apple IIe". It's not rocket science. I still have a Microsolutions Matchpoint PC card around here somewhere and it's scarcely more than a dozen SSI TTL packages. --Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Feb 18 15:26:45 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 16:26:45 -0500 Subject: Solderless breadboarding (was: Re: HP-IB, Amigo/cs80 was Re: hp 9153 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Feb 18, 2010, at 2:03 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> http://blog.makezine.com/archive/2010/02/ >> building_a_cpm_68k_computer_from_sc.html >> >> Crazy, but I'm cheering for him! Retrotastic! :-) > > Oh but WHY??? > > I don't want to discourge people from hacking, and making a 68K > computer > (I beleive it's a 68008 processor, given the 48 pin package) is > certainly > a fun project. But anyone who is interested enough to want to do that, > and has the abilities to design it, is capable of learning to > solder. Period. Yep, looks like a 68008. Cool stuff! > My guess is that if you knock the table, at least one connection will > momentarily break, and the thing will crash. Built it on stripboard, > with the same rats nest of wires, and it'll probably work reliably. Oh come on. I've been using these things for...jeeze, 33 years now. They're not THAT unreliable. Seriously. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From RichA at vulcan.com Thu Feb 18 15:25:01 2010 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 13:25:01 -0800 Subject: Living Computer Museum attending the DEC Legacy Event, Windermere, UK, 17-18 April 2010 Message-ID: Just wanted to let the European readers of CCtalk know that Ian King and I will be at the DEC Legacy Event in Windermere in April, and have been invited to give a presentation on the work we are doing at the Living Computer Museum. Details on the event are available at http://declegacy.org.uk We're looking forward to meeting lots of people there. Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.PDPplanet.org/ http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Thu Feb 18 15:57:28 2010 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 22:57:28 +0100 Subject: Solderless breadboarding (was: Re: HP-IB, Amigo/cs80 was Re: hp 9153 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: From: "Dave McGuire" Sent: Thursday, February 18, 2010 10:26 PM To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: Solderless breadboarding (was: Re: HP-IB,Amigo/cs80 was Re: hp 9153 > On Feb 18, 2010, at 2:03 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >>> http://blog.makezine.com/archive/2010/02/ >>> building_a_cpm_68k_computer_from_sc.html >>> >>> Crazy, but I'm cheering for him! Retrotastic! :-) >> >> Oh but WHY??? >> >> I don't want to discourge people from hacking, and making a 68K computer >> (I beleive it's a 68008 processor, given the 48 pin package) >> is certainly a fun project. But anyone who is interested enough to want >> to do that, and has the abilities to design it, is capable of learning to >> solder. Period. > > Yep, looks like a 68008. Cool stuff! > >> My guess is that if you knock the table, at least one connection will >> momentarily break, and the thing will crash. Built it on stripboard, >> with the same rats nest of wires, and it'll probably work reliably. > > Oh come on. I've been using these things for...jeeze, 33 years now. > They're not THAT unreliable. Seriously. > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire > Port Charlotte, FL Yes, I have been using breadboards for more than 20 years and never had a problem with them. Sure, you must not try to stick thick wires into the contacts, and prevent lots of Amps running through the contacts. Actually, I used a breadboard just two weeks ago for checking out the UJT circuit used in the RK05 Exersizer ... BTW, the article says it is an MC68008, so you did not need to count 24 pins (on one side) :-) I developed a Euro-board sized 68000-based SBC running at 10 MHz some 15 years ago for my StarShip simulation. Upgraded it to 68010, but finally installed a VME based 68020 at 30 MHz. The 68010 is pin compatible to the 68000, but if you are in OS stuff, you have to modify some software if you are handling stack frames. Those are not identical on the 68000 and 68010. The 68000 SBC has 64k EPROM and 64k RAM (IIRC) and one 6850 on-board, as well as VPA, address decoding and a DTACK counter circuit. If interested I could search the schematics and scan it. How well designed it is/was, I do not know, but it works :-) - Henk. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Feb 18 15:58:08 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 16:58:08 -0500 Subject: Solderless breadboarding (was: Re: HP-IB, Amigo/cs80 was Re: hp 9153 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 2/18/10, Dave McGuire wrote: > On Feb 18, 2010, at 2:03 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >>> http://blog.makezine.com/archive/2010/02/ >>> building_a_cpm_68k_computer_from_sc.html > > Yep, looks like a 68008. Cool stuff! Yep. We designed a 68008-based COMBOARD follow-on product back in the day, but it never got past the prototype stage (CPU, 32K SRAM, 64K ROM, Z8530, timer). I still have one or two of the CPUs from that effort. I don't recognize the MC68901 he's using, though. -ethan P.S. - this project revives, yet again, my occasional interest in hacking a COMBOARD into something less "embedded" - I usually get stuck at the same stage - whether to hack in a 5380 SCSI chip or a TTL-based "IDE" interface. COMBOARDs have serial, but no "disk", so they'd need _something_ (they already have between 32K and 2MB of RAM, depending on the model - I have piles of working boards with 128K of DRAM and a COM5025 USART, smaller piles of other models). From brain at jbrain.com Thu Feb 18 16:15:06 2010 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 16:15:06 -0600 Subject: Solderless breadboarding In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B7DBBEA.3070308@jbrain.com> On 2/18/2010 3:58 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 2/18/10, Dave McGuire wrote: > >> On Feb 18, 2010, at 2:03 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> >>>> http://blog.makezine.com/archive/2010/02/ >>>> building_a_cpm_68k_computer_from_sc.html >>>> >> Yep, looks like a 68008. Cool stuff! >> > Yep. We designed a 68008-based COMBOARD follow-on product back in the > day, but it never got past the prototype stage (CPU, 32K SRAM, 64K > ROM, Z8530, timer). I still have one or two of the CPUs from that > effort. > > I don't recognize the MC68901 he's using, though. > > -ethan > > P.S. - this project revives, yet again, my occasional interest in > hacking a COMBOARD into something less "embedded" - I usually get > stuck at the same stage - whether to hack in a 5380 SCSI chip or a > TTL-based "IDE" interface. COMBOARDs have serial, but no "disk", so > they'd need _something_ (they already have between 32K and 2MB of RAM, > depending on the model - I have piles of working boards with 128K of > DRAM and a COM5025 USART, smaller piles of other models). > Send me one and I'll hack in an SD interface complete with FAT support :-) Heck, I could even put it on the serial port, if you didn't want to hack it in. Jim -- Jim Brain, Brain Innovations (X) brain at jbrain.com Dabbling in WWW, Embedded Systems, Old CBM computers, and Good Times! Home: http://www.jbrain.com From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Thu Feb 18 16:22:27 2010 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 23:22:27 +0100 Subject: Solderless breadboarding (was: Re: HP-IB, Amigo/cs80 was Re: hp 9153 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: From: "Ethan Dicks" Sent: Thursday, February 18, 2010 10:58 PM To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: Solderless breadboarding (was: Re: HP-IB, Amigo/cs80 was Re: hp 9153 > On 2/18/10, Dave McGuire wrote: >> On Feb 18, 2010, at 2:03 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >>>> http://blog.makezine.com/archive/2010/02/ >>>> building_a_cpm_68k_computer_from_sc.html >> >> Yep, looks like a 68008. Cool stuff! > > Yep. We designed a 68008-based COMBOARD follow-on product back in the > day, but it never got past the prototype stage (CPU, 32K SRAM, 64K > ROM, Z8530, timer). I still have one or two of the CPUs from that > effort. > > I don't recognize the MC68901 he's using, though. > > -ethan > > P.S. - this project revives, yet again, my occasional interest in > hacking a COMBOARD into something less "embedded" - I usually get > stuck at the same stage - whether to hack in a 5380 SCSI chip or a > TTL-based "IDE" interface. COMBOARDs have serial, but no "disk", so > they'd need _something_ (they already have between 32K and 2MB of RAM, > depending on the model - I have piles of working boards with 128K of > DRAM and a COM5025 USART, smaller piles of other models). I have no experience with SCSI chips, but the software to read and write a sector of an IDE disk is simple enough. A TTL-based interface would take not much time. 16 bit data (may need buffering) and a few address decoding gates is probably all you need to hook up an IDE drive. - Henk. From curt at atarimuseum.com Thu Feb 18 16:53:47 2010 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 17:53:47 -0500 Subject: Device Side usb floppy interface finally shipping ($55) In-Reply-To: <4B7D8B2C.3060905@bitsavers.org> References: <4B7D8B2C.3060905@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4B7DC4FB.5010106@atarimuseum.com> Just ordered one now, will let you know when I get it, how it works out. Curt Al Kossow wrote: > > http://www.deviceside.com/ > > talked to this guy at VCF years ago. > > > > From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Feb 18 17:04:38 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 18:04:38 -0500 Subject: COMBOARD (MC68000) hardware hacking (was Re: Solderless breadboarding) Message-ID: On 2/18/10, Jim Brain wrote: > On 2/18/2010 3:58 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> P.S. - this project revives, yet again, my occasional interest in >> hacking a COMBOARD into something less "embedded" - I usually get >> stuck at the same stage - whether to hack in a 5380 SCSI chip or a >> TTL-based "IDE" interface. COMBOARDs have serial, but no "disk", so >> they'd need _something_ (they already have between 32K and 2MB of RAM, >> depending on the model - I have piles of working boards with 128K of >> DRAM and a COM5025 USART, smaller piles of other models). >> > Send me one and I'll hack in an SD interface complete with FAT support > :-) Heck, I could even put it on the serial port, if you didn't want to > hack it in. I'll go see what I can dig out of the bin - I can easily throw the Fluke 9010A on one and ensure the RAM and ROM test out OK. It's harder to test out the bus interface, but unless you plan to stick this on a Unibus, I don't think you care if the 8641s are all 100% known-good. ;-) The basic board is 8MHz 68000, 128K of parity DRAM (array of 4164 DIPs) on a 74S409 DRAM controller, 2x 28-pin JEDEC ROM sockets (2764s at least, if not 27128s), a socketed COM5025 which could be a good place to tap into the data bus and some select lines, an MC6821 with a 16-pin DIP exporting at least one of the 8-bit ports ("programmers' interface"), some sort of sub-100Hz timer, IIRC, for heartbeat interrupts, two 40-pin off-board BERG connectors (one for sync serial, one for LP05-type printer, driven by the rest of the MC6821), and 12 edge-visible power and status LEDs (mostly serial status indicators). I'd send you a link to a picture, but I don't seem to have posted one (and the salad days of Software Results pre-date the Web). It's a hex-height card that expects to pull +5V, +15V and -15V of of the Unibus, so you'd have to either plug it into a DEC module block or hack in power somewhere. Naturally, I have all the schematics and PAL equations, but they are in paper format, not electronic. Overall, my recollection is that the memory space is divided by A23 and A22 into four 4MB quadrants, RAM, ROM, I/O, and Unibus DMA engine. Retooling PALs could, of course, alter that. Unfortunately, the PALs are not always socketed (depends on the age of the board) and it's a six-layer PCB. I know of no reason PALs couldn't be replaced with 16V8 and 22V10 GALs, but it hasn't ever been tried. Still interested? -ethan P.S. - the other models are variations on the theme. The older model has 32K of 2114 SRAMs and two 6309 PROM sockets, newer models (of which I have only a handful) have 41256 or 44256 DRAMs and Z8530 DUARTs, but are otherwise quite similar architecturally, if you ignore the specifics of the host bus interface. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Feb 18 17:09:28 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 18:09:28 -0500 Subject: COMBOARD (MC68000) hardware hacking (was Re: Solderless breadboarding) Message-ID: On 2/18/10, Henk Gooijen wrote: > I have no experience with SCSI chips... No harder to wire up than a UART or PIA/VIA, but the rest is all software to create/interpret the SCSI packets. > but the software to read and write a sector of an IDE disk is simple enough. I've written low-level driver code for IDE manipulation on a GG2 Bus+ equipped Amiga. > A TTL-based interface would > take not much time. 16 bit data (may need buffering) and a few address > decoding gates is probably all you need to hook up an IDE drive. Address decoding gates might not even be required - I have full schematics for this board (I used to make them commercially) and have the PAL equations for the memory map PALs. I think it could be as easy as buffers and a PAL swap (plus software). I just flip-flop between SCSI and IDE and never get started. -ethan From brain at jbrain.com Thu Feb 18 17:45:40 2010 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 17:45:40 -0600 Subject: COMBOARD (MC68000) hardware hacking (was Re: Solderless breadboarding) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B7DD124.30903@jbrain.com> On 2/18/2010 5:04 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > Still interested? > Nothing has scared me off yet. It would be nice to have a goal in mind before launching the idea, and maybe something that can be re-used for other options (Possibly a GIDE-like IDE integration that would allow many 68K users to add IDE) Jim From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Thu Feb 18 18:08:48 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 00:08:48 +0000 Subject: Device Side usb floppy interface finally shipping ($55) In-Reply-To: <6dbe3c381002181258v3d79de38g70b9b76025ae5fc3@mail.gmail.com> References: <954247.22303.qm@web52601.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <6dbe3c381002181200v6a687815gd0c158a0d45d0b5@mail.gmail.com> <6dbe3c381002181258v3d79de38g70b9b76025ae5fc3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B7DD690.5020706@philpem.me.uk> Brian Lanning wrote: > I believe someone has software for linux that support the catweasel. In > that case, it would be open source, but I haven't had the time to look into > it. It sounds like you're talking about cwfloppy: http://www.soundtracker.org/raw/cwfloppy/index.html No write support if you're running Kernel 2.6, though -- so basically you have to put the CW in a machine running a pretty old (ca. 2004 or so) Linux distro... All I'll say is good luck to you if you're going to try that. -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Thu Feb 18 18:30:47 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 00:30:47 +0000 Subject: Device Side usb floppy interface finally shipping ($55) In-Reply-To: <4B7D3E1A.3499.14DE75E@cclist.sydex.com> References: <954247.22303.qm@web52601.mail.re2.yahoo.com>, , <6dbe3c381002181258v3d79de38g70b9b76025ae5fc3@mail.gmail.com> <4B7D3E1A.3499.14DE75E@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4B7DDBB7.5070604@philpem.me.uk> Chuck Guzis wrote: > The big problem that I see with this deviceside widget is that it has > limited current drive capability. 8" drives use 150 ohm pullups in > their terminators and present a 1 TTL UL. That's asking a lot from > a little uC. It seems a lot of folks are falling into the same bear-trap. The SPS (www.softpres.org) "Kryoflux" analyser is based on an Atmel ARM micro, but they're direct-driving the disc drive from the MCU I/Os. This sort of "design" makes me cringe... I'm using TI and Fairchild line driver chips -- 74LVX14 and 74LVC07. 24mA output drive, series-resistor overcurrent protection (and the option of fitting transient suppressors as well). They're TSSOP, but the PCB solder-mask makes them fairly easy to replace with a Stanley knife and a cheap 25W soldering iron. Also, what's the issue with "Flippy" disks? Why can't you just reverse the data in the buffer to account for the reversed disc rotation? > I'm also not sure how well the device handles the > higher densities. That would depend on what method it's using to acquire data, and what the acquisition clock rate is. Feed it a Copylock-protected floppy from an Amiga or an Atari ST and it's just about guaranteed to fall over. That said, most Amiga and ST discs were 3.5-inch... > I still prefer the simplicity of the CW MK 1 run under DOS. Fully > documented and easy to program. Can be made to handle just about > anything. Hm, as I understood it, you couldn't handle hard-sectored discs with the Mk1? Although IIRC it doesn't have any onboard memory either -- your sample length is limited by how much base memory you can grab (which would be somewhere in the region of 64k per segment for plain DOS, or a few GBytes for DOS+DPMI). The advantage to raw DOS is that (even in CWSDPMI or DOS4GW) you can take over every part of the machine. "Write this value to port 0x378!" "Yes sir!". You just don't have that level of control when you're running a multitasking OS. > There's no reason that the CW couldn't handle both reading and > writting Apple IIe floppies, but Jens comes right out and says that > he doesn't write software for these things. "Look, it's a shiny box that doesn't do anything!" This is the one situation I don't want to get into with the DiscFerret; I'm holding back on the hardware because the software is utter cack. That said, the access API (libdiscferret, aka DiscAPI) is stable and could "in theory" be extended to permit use with the Catweasel, if one were so inclined. All by design, too :) > So you're depending on > the kindness of strangers. The disk encoding format is well- > documented in "Understanding the Apple IIe". It's not rocket > science. It would take some effort to write a "good" GCR encoder/decoder. I'm having one hell of a time just getting my FM/MFM decoder to behave itself. For some reason, old Acorn DFS format floppies (FM, 250kbps) don't read very well in any drive. -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Thu Feb 18 19:21:11 2010 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 20:21:11 -0500 Subject: VAX graphics In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B7DE787.4050400@compsys.to> >Tony Duell wrote: >>On Feb 17, 2010, at 1:27 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> >> >>>>I've never seen, nor heard of anything but white phosphor VT100s. >>>> >>>> >>>Many years ago I saw a VT100 with what was cal;ed a 'retrographics >>>board' >>>fitted. This was a third-party add-on that connected to various >>>connectors on the normal VT100 logic board and which gave (for the >>>time) >>>high resolution graphics. (No, I don't mean a VT105 board, this thing >>>allowed to you to set or clear each pixel). >>> >>>Anyway, I seem to rememeb this unit had a green phosphor CRT in it. It >>>was almost caetainly not DEC-original, it was probably changed when >>>the >>>retrographics boar dwas fitted. >>> >>> >> That was called, I think, a "VT640" or something similar. It >>wasn't a DEC product. I had one a very long time ago (late 1980s I >>think) and it was dead. I don't know where it ended up. >> >> > >It was partly a DEC product :-). The chassis,case, keyboard PSU, bideo >board and logic board were all stock DEC parts. There was a paddleboard >(non-DEC) in that bridging edge connector that intercepts the lines to >the RS232 conenctor. And another board full of chips (including IIRC a >Z80) to do the graphics. > >I assumed from the name that this board could be retro-fitted into a >stock VT100. > Somewhere over the decades, I acquired what looks like a VT100 on the outside. A company by the name of ID Systems Corporation seems to have almost completely replaced the internal hardware and ended up with a color monitor as Model ID-100V. Unfortunately, there is no date. At one point, I attempted to see if it was working, but without any documentation, the only indication of color was during the SETUP modes. The monitor seems to be about twice as heavy as a normal VT100, probably mostly due to a replaced power supply. I don't have the time at the moment to look inside. Does anyone have any additional information? Are there any manuals available? Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine From cclist at sydex.com Thu Feb 18 19:47:12 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 17:47:12 -0800 Subject: Device Side usb floppy interface finally shipping ($55) In-Reply-To: <4B7DDBB7.5070604@philpem.me.uk> References: <954247.22303.qm@web52601.mail.re2.yahoo.com>, <4B7D3E1A.3499.14DE75E@cclist.sydex.com>, <4B7DDBB7.5070604@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4B7D7D20.7481.244198D@cclist.sydex.com> On 19 Feb 2010 at 0:30, Philip Pemberton wrote: > I'm using TI and Fairchild line driver chips -- 74LVX14 and 74LVC07. > 24mA output drive, series-resistor overcurrent protection (and the > option of fitting transient suppressors as well). They're TSSOP, but > the PCB solder-mask makes them fairly easy to replace with a Stanley > knife and a cheap 25W soldering iron. Same here, except I'm using a 5v AVR, so it's bog-standard 7407 and 74LS14 DIPs. > Also, what's the issue with "Flippy" disks? Why can't you just reverse > the data in the buffer to account for the reversed disc rotation? I suspect it's because the head for side 1 is offset from the side 0 head on a double-sided drive--and the offset doesn't translate to a track width. > Hm, as I understood it, you couldn't handle hard-sectored discs with > the Mk1? Not true--the MK I does have a real-time index status, which works fine for DOS where the CPU isn't doing anything else and you can wait for the status change and jump on it. I've done plenty of HS floppies with a MK I. > Although IIRC it doesn't have any onboard memory either -- your sample > length is limited by how much base memory you can grab (which would be > somewhere in the region of 64k per segment for plain DOS, or a few > GBytes for DOS+DPMI). The MK I has 128K of SRAM for its sample buffer. > It would take some effort to write a "good" GCR encoder/decoder. I'm > having one hell of a time just getting my FM/MFM decoder to behave > itself. For some reason, old Acorn DFS format floppies (FM, 250kbps) > don't read very well in any drive. I routinely use the MK I to read Brother 3.5" 240K WP floppies and have used it to read Future Data 8" HS floppies that are also GCR. There are one or two 5.25" 100 tpi GCR formats that require that the low-pass filter on the drive electronics have its headroom raised a bit. I'm probably going to put the current design (uses two AVRs--one (ATTiny2313) to handle drive seek, status testing, etc. and one (ATMega162) to actually do the reading and writing) aside for now. It was mostly because I needed a few more I/Os using the DIP AVR packages, but it's turned out very nice. The two communicate via UART. Output of the gizmo is RS-232; if USB is desired, it's easy enough to use a cheap converter. Data transfer to the host is plain old XMODEM. I'd like to start next on a serial-interface Pertec tape controller. There doesn't seem to be much out there other than some old ISA cards and the odd Pertec-to-SCSI controller. Still plenty of Pertec- interface tape drives, however. --Chuck From brain at jbrain.com Thu Feb 18 20:02:04 2010 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 20:02:04 -0600 Subject: Northstar Horizon and RCA COSMAC Stuff Message-ID: <4B7DF11C.2060303@jbrain.com> I've put two Northstar boards on eBay for those who care: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=290404578135 http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=290404577525 And, I've got the following documents that simply need a good home for the cost of shipping: * Original PMMI MM-103 Modem Manual * Copy of Horizon Parallel to Centronics Parallel Cable diagram from Northstar Computers * Bunch of Information from Jay Sage on Z-System he sent me. * Copies of HRAM Original Schematics (Rev A and C) * Northstar 16K RAM Board original manual (RAM-16-DOC) Rev2 Preferably a home with someone who will ensure they are scanned if not already. I also have two COSMAC docs free for cost of shipping: * Copy of MB-604B RCA COSMAC Microboard Computer CDP18S604B * Copy of 1802 datasheet (it's a fax, so it's not a great example, but it's an RCA document, and I could not find a softcopy online) If you know some of these are available as softcopy, please let me know, so I don't feel bad if no one takes them and I end up trashing them. Jim -- Jim Brain, Brain Innovations (X) brain at jbrain.com Dabbling in WWW, Embedded Systems, Old CBM computers, and Good Times! Home: http://www.jbrain.com From hachti at hachti.de Fri Feb 19 00:08:39 2010 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 07:08:39 +0100 Subject: Living Computer Museum attending the DEC Legacy Event, Windermere, UK, 17-18 April 2010 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B7E2AE7.8070708@hachti.de> > > Details on the event are available at http://declegacy.org.uk > Hm - but they don't even mention OS/8 :-( -- http://www.hachti.de From IanK at vulcan.com Fri Feb 19 01:58:38 2010 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 23:58:38 -0800 Subject: Living Computer Museum attending the DEC Legacy Event, Windermere, UK, 17-18 April 2010 In-Reply-To: <4B7E2AE7.8070708@hachti.de> References: , <4B7E2AE7.8070708@hachti.de> Message-ID: That's OK, we have OS/8 on one of our primary exhibit machines. It's so fun to watch the folks jump when the DECtapes start spinning. :-) ________________________________________ From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Philipp Hachtmann [hachti at hachti.de] Sent: Thursday, February 18, 2010 10:08 PM To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Living Computer Museum attending the DEC Legacy Event, Windermere, UK, 17-18 April 2010 > > Details on the event are available at http://declegacy.org.uk > Hm - but they don't even mention OS/8 :-( -- http://www.hachti.de From chrise at pobox.com Thu Feb 18 16:04:40 2010 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 16:04:40 -0600 Subject: Deep fried inductor... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20100218220440.GA2369@n0jcf.net> On Thursday (02/18/2010 at 09:53AM -0800), dwight elvey wrote: > > > > Finally, assuming it is the problem, what do I need to replace it? > > The stripes on it are: > > > > Wide silver (covering one end) > > Red > > Yellow > > Brown > > Gold > > > > Thanks, > > Bill > > Hi > The inductor is most likely a PS filter the analog paths. Although, I'd > measure it in a bridge before replacing it, it is most likely not the > problem you are seeing. As a filter, it is unlikely to cause too much > problems if short, as these circuits are often over designed there. > They rarely are temperature sensitive at the level you are seeing. > If it is not getting hot, it is unlikely to be effected by operation time. > It is more likely something failing in the stepper control. You might > also check to see if things are well lubricated ( no old grease ). On the Siemens drives also used in the H89 and H17, there is an inductor in series with the +12 to the spindle motor. It's a hash choke that keeps the motor noise from going back into the +12 rail. When the grease in the spindle motor gets old and sticky, the motor draws way too much current at startup (if it ever does start spinning) and toasts this inductor. It's an exciting failure on the H89, because the "Mission Impossible" smoke comes out through the drive door and slowly flows down onto the keyboard. Impressive image, horrible smell. Chris -- Chris Elmquist From snhirsch at gmail.com Thu Feb 18 17:15:09 2010 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 18:15:09 -0500 (EST) Subject: Device Side usb floppy interface finally shipping ($55) In-Reply-To: <4B7D8B2C.3060905@bitsavers.org> References: <4B7D8B2C.3060905@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Thu, 18 Feb 2010, Al Kossow wrote: > > http://www.deviceside.com/ > > talked to this guy at VCF years ago. > Cool! Just ordered one. -- From csquared3 at tx.rr.com Thu Feb 18 21:16:30 2010 From: csquared3 at tx.rr.com (CSquared) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 21:16:30 -0600 Subject: Tubes & Computers of Olden Days In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B7E028E.4070400@tx.rr.com> Gene Buckle wrote: > On Thu, 18 Feb 2010, William Donzelli wrote: > >> >> The chances of more tube computers coming out of the woodwork is very, >> very slim, but it has happened in the past few years. It is actually >> reasonable to think that someone could have an IBM 650 or Bendix G-15 >> tucked away in a basement or garage. >> > Here's one that last I heard was in service with the RAF: > > http://199.254.199.10/BehindTheScenes/lockheed.html > > The company that owned it was bankrupted by the training market downturn > after 9/11. It was sold in 2003. > > g. > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 9.0.733 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2695 - Release Date: 02/18/10 01:34:00 > I'm pretty sure Colossus is running again at Bletchley Park. I only wish I could get over there to see it in person. There are some youtube videos available. Later, Charlie C. From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Fri Feb 19 07:45:06 2010 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 08:45:06 -0500 Subject: Deep fried inductor... In-Reply-To: <20100218220440.GA2369@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: Chris Elmquist wrote: > On the Siemens drives also used in the H89 and H17, there is an inductor > in series with the +12 to the spindle motor. It's a hash choke that keeps > the motor noise from going back into the +12 rail. When the grease in > the spindle motor gets old and sticky, the motor draws way too much current > at startup (if it ever does start spinning) and toasts this inductor. I don't have "real" schematics for the drive and I have not had time yet to work out the whole circuit but what I do know is that one side of the inductor is connected to +12. The simple diagram would be: +12-------+-------ground | | somewhere else not yet traced When the tantalum cap shorted, burned and popped, the inductor was carrying +12 to ground. That's how it got "toasty". The spindle motor seems to be nice and free. Judging by the strobe sticker on the bottom of the flywheel, the disk RPMs are spot on. Interestingly, I could not reproduce the failure last night. I went as far as putting a small piece of carpet on top of the H17, blocking the vents. It got nice and warm, but no failure. The last thing I did Wednesday night, two nights ago, before I posted the first message, was to unsolder one of the leads on the inductor so I could put an Ohm meter on it. It was not open and, as others have suggested it should be, was almost a dead short. I wonder if the desolder/solder heat has "fixed" it. Bill From caveguy at sbcglobal.net Fri Feb 19 08:13:40 2010 From: caveguy at sbcglobal.net (Bob Bradlee) Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 09:13:40 -0500 Subject: Deep fried inductor... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <150956.9717.qm@smtp104.sbc.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> On Fri, 19 Feb 2010 08:45:06 -0500, Bill Sudbrink wrote: >The last thing I did Wednesday night, two nights ago, before I >posted the first message, was to unsolder one of the leads on >the inductor so I could put an Ohm meter on it. It was not open >and, as others have suggested it should be, was almost a dead >short. I wonder if the desolder/solder heat has "fixed" it. That may have very well fixed it, I have found severely over heated solder joints oxidise/chrystalize and simply reflowing the solder fixed the problem. Back under my rock :) The other Bob From trag at io.com Fri Feb 19 09:38:21 2010 From: trag at io.com (Jeff Walther) Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 09:38:21 -0600 (CST) Subject: Soldering (Was: Re: HP-IB, Amigo/cs80 ... ) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2820e7c8a368f747dd27ba1f20bdccc3.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com> > > Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 13:07:58 -0700 > From: Ben > Chuck Guzis wrote: > >> Soldering now is far safer than it used to be. I can still recall >> the glorious sensation of picking up an American Beauty 100W >> soldering iron by the wrong end. >> >> I suppose that we should be thankful that we don't use an >> oxyacetylene torch for PCB work... > > I guess that is why BYTE[1] went from a hardware magazine > to software. Some of the best advice I got in college was from an EE professor who told us, "If you drop your soldering iron, don't try to catch it on the way down. Just let it go." Jeff Walther From afra at aurigae.demon.co.uk Fri Feb 19 10:30:10 2010 From: afra at aurigae.demon.co.uk (afra at aurigae.demon.co.uk) Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 16:30:10 +0000 Subject: Soldering (Was: Re: HP-IB, Amigo/cs80 ... ) In-Reply-To: <2820e7c8a368f747dd27ba1f20bdccc3.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com> References: <2820e7c8a368f747dd27ba1f20bdccc3.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com> Message-ID: <20100219163010.124644j96o8zoa68@aurigae.demon.co.uk> Quoting Jeff Walther : >> >> Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 13:07:58 -0700 >> From: Ben > >> Chuck Guzis wrote: >> >>> Soldering now is far safer than it used to be. I can still recall >>> the glorious sensation of picking up an American Beauty 100W >>> soldering iron by the wrong end. Yeah I managed to do that once too, it f****n hurt ! At least I had the presense of mind to pick the damn thing up off the floor and put it on it's stand before going to run my hand under the tap. Don't think my parents would have been too happy if I had set fire to the house :( My excuse was I was only about 13-14 at the time..... >>> I suppose that we should be thankful that we don't use an >>> oxyacetylene torch for PCB work... >> >> I guess that is why BYTE[1] went from a hardware magazine >> to software. > > Some of the best advice I got in college was from an EE professor who told > us, "If you drop your soldering iron, don't try to catch it on the way > down. Just let it go." My wife has always said the same about knives, especially considdering she works in a biological lab where they have some prety sharp stuff. Mind she also says that it's beter to have a sharp knife than a dull one, as you tend to have to apply less pressure and therefore are less likley to slip and cut yourself, and if you do it's a clean cut so will heal / re-atatch easier :) Cheers. Phill. ---------------------------------------------------------------- This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. From roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk Fri Feb 19 12:46:17 2010 From: roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk (Roger Holmes) Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 18:46:17 +0000 Subject: Tubes & Computers of Olden Days In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <93280CDC-EC76-4CEE-BEB8-F1C6C9CEA859@microspot.co.uk> > > Gene Buckle wrote: >> On Thu, 18 Feb 2010, William Donzelli wrote: >> >>> >>> The chances of more tube computers coming out of the woodwork is very, >>> very slim, but it has happened in the past few years. It is actually >>> reasonable to think that someone could have an IBM 650 or Bendix G-15 >>> tucked away in a basement or garage. >>> >> Here's one that last I heard was in service with the RAF: >> >> http://199.254.199.10/BehindTheScenes/lockheed.html >> >> The company that owned it was bankrupted by the training market downturn >> after 9/11. It was sold in 2003. >> > I'm pretty sure Colossus is running again at Bletchley Park. I only > wish I could get over there to see it in person. There are some youtube > videos available. > Later, > Charlie C. To say it is running again is a little bit misleading. A huge amount of work was done by my fellow members of the Computer Conservation Society, including some of the people who designed Colossus in the first place and it is great to have it but Winston Churchill had the Colossi(?) broken up into small bits and so this is a replica, an extraordinarily correct replica but a replica all the same, therefore it is now running, not running again. Apparently they had less problems getting the difficult bits working as the plans had been released from UK government archives, than the off the shelf 'commercial' items, plans of which had long since been lost except for the odd hoarder like me and probably you. Also thing like switches were available off the shelf, with a high priority job they had first call on things and selected Spitfire fighter switches which were then being produced in good quantities and good quality. Roger Holmes From wmaddox at pacbell.net Fri Feb 19 13:54:12 2010 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 11:54:12 -0800 (PST) Subject: Mountain View, CA In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <50999.62455.qm@web82606.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Hi, Dave. I could likely do this. Did anyone else step forward? I'd like to get our outstanding business with the DECtapes wrapped up, however. --Bill --- On Wed, 2/17/10, Dave McGuire wrote: > From: Dave McGuire > Subject: Mountain View, CA > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Date: Wednesday, February 17, 2010, 1:26 AM > > ? Is there anyone in or near Mountain View, CA who > would be willing to pick up a light PC-tower-sized box and > ship it to me?? If so, please contact me off-list. > > ? ? ? ? ? ? ? Thanks, > ? ? ? ? ? ? ? -Dave > > --Dave McGuire > Port Charlotte, FL > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Feb 19 14:13:34 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 20:13:34 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Solderless breadboarding (was: Re: HP-IB, In-Reply-To: from "Henk Gooijen" at Feb 18, 10 10:57:28 pm Message-ID: > Yes, I have been using breadboards for more than 20 years and never > had a problem with them. Sure, you must not try to stick thick wires I must have been unlucky. I tried several of them in my younger days (Eurobreadboars, the CSC/GSC Protoboards, etc) and had no end of problems. In the end I started just soldering upo the circuits on stripboard, and my desigens started working first time. > into the contacts, and prevent lots of Amps running through the contacts. > Actually, I used a breadboard just two weeks ago for checking out the > UJT circuit used in the RK05 Exersizer ... Oh, I still use them. Just not for anything where a momentary loss of contact is going to cause major problems (and be hard to tell from a real design fault), or that uses high-speed devices, or... Last time I used one was a couple of weeks ago to test out some white LEDs[1]. It was great for that, but I didn't design the rest of the circuit using it. [1] The local pound shop (a similar concept to dollar stores) was selling a camping lamp with 24 white LEDs for a pound. Needless to say I bought a couple to strip the LEDs from. I wanted to see if you could use white LEDs to make a useable stroboscope. You can. I built 2 such devices, one using a 7555 tinmer as the oascillator with 4000-series CMOS dividers (this one can be set for any rate between 3Hz and 3kHz, I measure the frequency using the Hz range of my Fluke multimeter), the other using a crystal oscillator and 74HC dividers to give either 100 or 120 flashes per second (simulating European or American mains lights). I wanted the former to check the performance of a motor I'd just rewond for an HP9125A plotter, the latter to checking the spindle speed of floppy drives, etc -- it gives a much clearer pattern than the lighting in my workshop. > > BTW, the article says it is an MC68008, so you did not need to count > 24 pins (on one side) :-) Oh, I didn't . I noticed it was a 0.6" wide package. The 68000 and 68010 DIL packages are 0.9" wide. > I developed a Euro-board sized 68000-based SBC running at 10 MHz > some 15 years ago for my StarShip simulation. Upgraded it to 68010, > but finally installed a VME based 68020 at 30 MHz. > The 68010 is pin compatible to the 68000, but if you are in OS stuff, Indeed. There is also a PGA version of the 68010, which is used in some HP machines IIRC there's a 68012 which had more addres mins bought out, but otherwise had the same PGA pinout > you have to modify some software if you are handling stack frames. > Those are not identical on the 68000 and 68010. IIRC, the 68010 pushes more onto the stack on an interrupt. The 68020 stack frame is the same as the 68010 one, so upgrading from a 68010 to a 68020 should involve few, if any, software changes. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Feb 19 14:20:35 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 20:20:35 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Deep fried inductor... In-Reply-To: <20100218220440.GA2369@n0jcf.net> from "Chris Elmquist" at Feb 18, 10 04:04:40 pm Message-ID: > On the Siemens drives also used in the H89 and H17, there is an inductor > in series with the +12 to the spindle motor. It's a hash choke that keeps > the motor noise from going back into the +12 rail. When the grease in > the spindle motor gets old and sticky, the motor draws way too much current > at startup (if it ever does start spinning) and toasts this inductor. If this is the Siemens drive used in the Z90, I have the schematics here (io the Z90 hardware manuals). I can't see an 'L5' at all, but the drive I have has a separate motor control PCB with a series choke (but a 10uH one) in the supply line. It's easily posible that later drives put everything on one PCB (as Tandon did). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Feb 19 14:49:10 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 20:49:10 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Deep fried inductor... In-Reply-To: from "Bill Sudbrink" at Feb 19, 10 08:45:06 am Message-ID: > > Chris Elmquist wrote: > > On the Siemens drives also used in the H89 and H17, there is an inductor > > in series with the +12 to the spindle motor. It's a hash choke that keeps > > the motor noise from going back into the +12 rail. When the grease in > > the spindle motor gets old and sticky, the motor draws way too much current > > at startup (if it ever does start spinning) and toasts this inductor. > > I don't have "real" schematics for the drive and I have not > had time yet to work out the whole circuit but what I do know > is that one side of the inductor is connected to +12. The > simple diagram would be: > > +12-------+-------ground > | > | > somewhere else > not yet traced OK, that's clearly a supply line filter. WHat I would do to trace it is to remove the inductor (temporarily) and then trace fro mthe +ve side of the capacitor to anything that might need 12V (spindle motor, stepper motor, head load solenoid, read amplifer). See which of those go to the +e side of the capacito, and which go directly to the 12V input. > > When the tantalum cap shorted, burned and popped, the inductor > was carrying +12 to ground. That's how it got "toasty". OK, so at least there's a reason why it overheated. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Feb 19 14:52:23 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 20:52:23 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Soldering (Was: Re: HP-IB, Amigo/cs80 ... ) In-Reply-To: <2820e7c8a368f747dd27ba1f20bdccc3.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com> from "Jeff Walther" at Feb 19, 10 09:38:21 am Message-ID: > Some of the best advice I got in college was from an EE professor who told > us, "If you drop your soldering iron, don't try to catch it on the way > down. Just let it go." I've heard much the same thing said about (turned-on) power saws... As I've mentioned before, I am the least athletic person around, and have difficulty catching anything thrown at me. Apart that is, from dropped soldering irons. It's a natural reaction to try to prevent it falling, and I always seem to manage to get hold of the metal shaft. Ouch!. -tony From keithvz at verizon.net Fri Feb 19 15:17:55 2010 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith) Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 16:17:55 -0500 Subject: Soldering (Was: Re: HP-IB, Amigo/cs80 ... ) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B7F0003.3070606@verizon.net> Tony Duell wrote: >> Some of the best advice I got in college was from an EE professor who told >> us, "If you drop your soldering iron, don't try to catch it on the way >> down. Just let it go." > > I've heard much the same thing said about (turned-on) power saws... > > As I've mentioned before, I am the least athletic person around, and have > difficulty catching anything thrown at me. Apart that is, from dropped > soldering irons. It's a natural reaction to try to prevent it falling, > and I always seem to manage to get hold of the metal shaft. Ouch!. > > -tony My father who is a retired carpenter told me to always keep both hands on circular saw when using it. It's pretty hard to cut your fingers/hands/arms when they are both on top of the saw. This is a pretty cool design for table saws: http://www.sawstop.com/ "We're passionate about preventing saw accidents. That?s why SawStop? saws are equipped with a safety system to stop the blade within 5 milliseconds of detecting contact with skin." The owner/inventor put his finger in a moving table saw blade to prove it works. It's pretty neat. Keith From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Feb 19 15:18:52 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 16:18:52 -0500 Subject: Solderless breadboarding (and 68010 vs 68000) Message-ID: On 2/19/10, Tony Duell wrote: >> Yes, I have been using breadboards for more than 20 years and never >> had a problem with them. Sure, you must not try to stick thick wires > > I must have been unlucky. I tried several of them in my younger days > (Eurobreadboars, the CSC/GSC Protoboards, etc) and had no end of > problems. In the end I started just soldering upo the circuits on > stripboard, and my desigens started working first time. I've done both. I've personally never had mechanical stability problems with protoboards, but then I don't tend to wedge in 0.1" header pins into my boards. I insert ICs, 1/4W resistors, various capacitors, wires, crystals, LEDs and such, but rarely do I insert header pins. I've always felt that they were "too large", even though I know lots of people stuff them in there all the time. > [1] The local pound shop (a similar concept to dollar stores) was selling > a camping lamp with 24 white LEDs for a pound. I'd buy that for a pound! (and repurpose it, as you have). >> BTW, the article says it is an MC68008, so you did not need to count >> 24 pins (on one side) :-) > > Oh, I didn't . I noticed it was a 0.6" wide package. The 68000 and 68010 > DIL packages are 0.9" wide. Indeed. Quite distinctive. >> The 68010 is pin compatible to the 68000, but if you are in OS stuff, > > Indeed. There is also a PGA version of the 68010, which is used in some > HP machines IIRC there's a 68012 which had more addres mins bought out, > but otherwise had the same PGA pinout I have read about the 68012, but don't think I've seen one in the wild. >> you have to modify some software if you are handling stack frames. >> Those are not identical on the 68000 and 68010. > > IIRC, the 68010 pushes more onto the stack on an interrupt. It does. The difference isn't onerous - at least starting with AmigaDOS 1.2 if not 1.1 (not sure about 1.0), you could upgrade your 68000 to a 68010 for an approximate 5% effective speed "boost" - this was entirely due to the one-instruction DBcc "loop-mode cache" in random places in the OS and in applications. As long as your applications didn't try to execute any "MOVE from SR" instructions (http://www.cpu-world.com/CPUs/68010/), no changes were required. If you _did_ have some apps that did that, there a trap handler for that on, IIRC, an early Fish disk. It would catch the privilege exception, grab the status/condition code value and return the value to the trapping instruction. One app that was used to tell if you had the patch applied was the AmigaDOS 1.1 calculator. With AmigaDOS 1.2, the app made an OS call to get the required value. The older app used a "forbidden instruction" so it made a good test. If you are rolling your own OS or writing embedded code, it's not really that hard to determine what size of stack frame you'll have and handle both. I was responsible for replacing 68000s with 68010s in the final COMBOARD product (partially to take advantage of "loop mode" when dumping buffers across the DMA interface, increasing the block speed of the board with a $50 chip). I don't think the code changes relating to the 68010 took me more than part of an afternoon to implement. It's good to remember that it's so, but rather easy to accomplish once you are that deep in the code. -ethan From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Feb 19 15:46:08 2010 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 21:46:08 -0000 Subject: VMware appliances References: <624966d61002161340u1f99ad42i480171e6d69b59fe@mail.gmail.com><201002170320.o1H3Kqrx000959@billY.EZWIND.NET><20100217084104.GB42212@plum.flirble.org><4B7C2988.5070109@arachelian.com> <201002171800.o1HI0WMN053338@billY.EZWIND.NET> Message-ID: <00cd01cab1af$c270dc90$cbfdf93e@user8459cef6fa> AMOS (Amiga OS) Basic and it's successor AMOS Pro allowed you to do this on the Amiga. You could reserve a "bank" of memory which could then be used to store anything (e.g. music, sprites, data and compressed images). It was possible to have up to 65535 banks, but due to memory limitations the vast majority of AMOS-made software kept all other files separate. It's kinda funny how 15-20 year old ideas are resurfacing as "new ideas". Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Foust" To: Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2010 5:55 PM Subject: Re: VMware appliances > > For the Windows-based emulators, I suspect we'll soon have a file format > that bundles all of an application and its data into a redistributable > single-file format. You can see glimpses of this already in the > enterprise tools that let you run an app this way, without actually > installing it into your registry and hard drive. Maybe it'll be a > way from all this Windows ugliness. > From cclist at sydex.com Fri Feb 19 16:39:42 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 14:39:42 -0800 Subject: Soldering (Was: Re: HP-IB, Amigo/cs80 ... ) In-Reply-To: <4B7F0003.3070606@verizon.net> References: , <4B7F0003.3070606@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4B7EA2AE.10987.1499C20@cclist.sydex.com> On 19 Feb 2010 at 16:17, Keith wrote: > The owner/inventor put his finger in a moving table saw blade to prove > it works. It's pretty neat. I saw that being flogged in Design News. While it may save your fingers, it does so destructively (to the saw). I wonder if a green hunk of softwood (as is likely to come from the mill) would also trigger it. It seems that one trend of late is to use green framing lumber in new construction. If that did stop the saw, it most certainly would have me cursing the inventor. I'll stay with my push sticks, thank you. But it got me to thinking about how soldering and electronics construction might have a parallel in the kitchen. I wonder if this fear of getting hurt and sharp knives is related to the phenomenon that few cook their own meals anymore. A big sharp knife is much safer than a small dull knife in the kitchen. As in soldering, keeping your attention on what you're doing matters a lot. --Chuck From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Fri Feb 19 16:46:25 2010 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 23:46:25 +0100 Subject: Solderless breadboarding (and 68010 vs 68000) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: From: "Ethan Dicks" Sent: Friday, February 19, 2010 10:18 PM To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: Solderless breadboarding (and 68010 vs 68000) > On 2/19/10, Tony Duell wrote: >>> Yes, I have been using breadboards for more than 20 years and never >>> had a problem with them. Sure, you must not try to stick thick wires >> ... ... ... >>> BTW, the article says it is an MC68008, so you did not need to count >>> 24 pins (on one side) :-) >> >> Oh, I didn't . I noticed it was a 0.6" wide package. The 68000 and 68010 >> DIL packages are 0.9" wide. > > Indeed. Quite distinctive. Yes, the 68000 and 68010 are almost as impressive as the J11 :-) >>> The 68010 is pin compatible to the 68000, but if you are in OS stuff, >> >> Indeed. There is also a PGA version of the 68010, which is used in some >> HP machines IIRC there's a 68012 which had more addres mins bought out, >> but otherwise had the same PGA pinout I have a 10 MHz PGA 68000 somewhere IIRC. > I have read about the 68012, but don't think I've seen one in the wild. Me neither. >>> you have to modify some software if you are handling stack frames. >>> Those are not identical on the 68000 and 68010. >> >> IIRC, the 68010 pushes more onto the stack on an interrupt. Yes, it pushes a few more bytes to save the CPU state for recovery. > It does. The difference isn't onerous - at least starting with > AmigaDOS 1.2 if not 1.1 (not sure about 1.0), you could upgrade your > 68000 to a 68010 for an approximate 5% effective speed "boost" - this > was entirely due to the one-instruction DBcc "loop-mode cache" in > random places in the OS and in applications. As long as your > applications didn't try to execute any "MOVE from SR" instructions > (http://www.cpu-world.com/CPUs/68010/), no changes were required. If > you _did_ have some apps that did that, there a trap handler for that > on, IIRC, an early Fish disk. It would catch the privilege exception, > grab the status/condition code value and return the value to the > trapping instruction. And for that 2-instruction cache I upgraded from 68000 to 68010 in my StarShip. It has a tiny OS for start/stop/suspend/resume tasks and some synchronization mechanisms (semaphore and timed-wait). The ship's code runs in User space and the OS in Privileged space, so when a task gives up the CPU it was via a TRAP. > One app that was used to tell if you had the patch applied was the > AmigaDOS 1.1 calculator. With AmigaDOS 1.2, the app made an OS call > to get the required value. The older app used a "forbidden > instruction" so it made a good test. I never thought of using a forbidden instruction, so I changed the code from 68000 to 68010. The test and then processing the stack frame accordingly is clever, but would cause performance drop. May more than was to be gained by the 2-instruction caching. I don't know. > If you are rolling your own OS or writing embedded code, it's not > really that hard to determine what size of stack frame you'll have and > handle both. I was responsible for replacing 68000s with 68010s in > the final COMBOARD product (partially to take advantage of "loop mode" > when dumping buffers across the DMA interface, increasing the block > speed of the board with a $50 chip). I don't think the code changes > relating to the 68010 took me more than part of an afternoon to > implement. Yeah, if you know the CPU at the assembler level, a few hours work is what it takes :-) I've done that. I hope to put some new life into my StarShip later this year and brush up the 68000/68020 assembler knowledge. It's 5 years ago and I have plenty of ideas to code :-) Will be fun and looking forward to that too! > It's good to remember that it's so, but rather easy to accomplish once > you are that deep in the code. Indeed. - Henk. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Feb 19 17:18:34 2010 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 16:18:34 -0700 Subject: Soldering (Was: Re: HP-IB, Amigo/cs80 ... ) In-Reply-To: <4B7EA2AE.10987.1499C20@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4B7F0003.3070606@verizon.net> <4B7EA2AE.10987.1499C20@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4B7F1C4A.60406@jetnet.ab.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote: > I wonder if this fear of getting hurt and sharp knives is related to > the phenomenon that few cook their own meals anymore. A big sharp > knife is much safer than a small dull knife in the kitchen. As in > soldering, keeping your attention on what you're doing matters a lot. Cooking takes time ... few people have that now days! > --Chuck Finding a good big sharp knife and small sharp knife, and bread knife is hard. Every thing tends to stainless steel and that don't keep sharp. From als at thangorodrim.de Fri Feb 19 17:53:37 2010 From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber) Date: Sat, 20 Feb 2010 00:53:37 +0100 Subject: Soldering (Was: Re: HP-IB, Amigo/cs80 ... ) In-Reply-To: <4B7F1C4A.60406@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4B7F0003.3070606@verizon.net> <4B7EA2AE.10987.1499C20@cclist.sydex.com> <4B7F1C4A.60406@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <20100219235337.GC9668@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> On Fri, Feb 19, 2010 at 04:18:34PM -0700, Ben wrote: > Chuck Guzis wrote: > >> I wonder if this fear of getting hurt and sharp knives is related to >> the phenomenon that few cook their own meals anymore. A big sharp >> knife is much safer than a small dull knife in the kitchen. As in >> soldering, keeping your attention on what you're doing matters a lot. > > Cooking takes time ... few people have that now days! Well, monday-friday I eat at the company (and the canteen is very good), but for the weekends, cooking at home it is. I find it very enjoyable and relaxing. Plus, you end up with a very tasty meal when you are done. >> --Chuck > > Finding a good big sharp knife and small sharp knife, > and bread knife is hard. Every thing tends to stainless steel > and that don't keep sharp. I found a nice ceramic blade, that is (and stays) _very_ sharp. Pretty much perfect for cutting moderately soft vegetables (like tomatoes), fish and meat. Of course, it being ceramic, putting mechanical stress on it (like trying to hack through frozen meat, wiggling it back and forth (which would just bend a thin steel blade)) is very likely to snap it, so it has be be handled carefully. And as for the steel knives not staying sharp, well, thats what the diamond-dust covered sharpening rod is for in the kitchen. It won't get the knives up to a full razor edge (that would take different tools and more time), but it gets them sharp enough quickly. For fine work on soft stuff, I've got the ceramics blade anyway. Regards, Alex. -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Feb 19 23:02:48 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 20 Feb 2010 00:02:48 -0500 Subject: Cross country hauling Message-ID: Again for 2010, I am crossing the country and am offering to pickup, haul, and deliver large items for list members. In mid/late April, I will be leaving New York, to arrive in California near the start of May, and I will be passing thru Chicago and Denver on the westbound trio, and likely Minneapolis on the eastbound. If business calls, I can hit other cities as well. I will have a van and a trailer, and can take fairly large items, like 6 foot racks. Weight is not much of an issue, with maybe a limit of 1200 pounds or so. Items hauled on my trailer are fully caccooned and tarped. Loading and unloading are included. I use the hauling to pay for my expenses on the trip (mostly fuel), so my rates are quite reasonable. Smaller items are welcome, of course. Some of my capacity is already taken for both the westbound and eastbound sections, but there is plenty of room for more. Also, from Denver to California I will be almost completely empty. Please inquire off list, please. -- Will From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Sat Feb 20 03:32:45 2010 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sat, 20 Feb 2010 10:32:45 +0100 Subject: Tubes & Computers of Olden Days In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20100220103245.c00212a3.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Wed, 17 Feb 2010 04:16:55 -0500 Murray McCullough wrote: > Speaking of tubes, television variety or otherwise, does anyone know > if there are any tube-based computers, large or small, still in > existence? There is a Zuse Z22 from 1956 still operating at the ZKM: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Z22 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XulGCz1s1y8 http://www.zkm.de/algorithmische-revolution/index.php?module=pagemaster&PAGE_user_op=view_page&PAGE_id=131 -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From rickb at bensene.com Sat Feb 20 07:13:09 2010 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Sat, 20 Feb 2010 05:13:09 -0800 Subject: Tubes & Computers of Olden Days In-Reply-To: <20100220103245.c00212a3.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <20100220103245.c00212a3.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: I believe that there is at least one, possibly more, Royal McBee/Librascope/General Precision LGP-30 computers still running today. The University of Stuttgart in Germany has a nice video of their operational LGP-30 up at YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7WaYYNUCWMY From rachael at telefisk.org Sat Feb 20 08:43:04 2010 From: rachael at telefisk.org (Jacob Dahl Pind) Date: Sat, 20 Feb 2010 15:43:04 +0100 (CET) Subject: alternativ to catweasel Message-ID: the was posted to a amiga ircchannel some time ago, http://www.softpres.org/glossary:kryoflux Looks interessing, if there will be better drivers and accessable info for writing or chaning the code on it, drive situation cant be much worse than what we have with the catweasel. Regards -- Jacob Dahl Pind | telefisk.org | fidonet 2:237/38.8 From ray at arachelian.com Sat Feb 20 11:42:36 2010 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Sat, 20 Feb 2010 12:42:36 -0500 Subject: Tubes & Computers of Olden Days In-Reply-To: <93280CDC-EC76-4CEE-BEB8-F1C6C9CEA859@microspot.co.uk> References: <93280CDC-EC76-4CEE-BEB8-F1C6C9CEA859@microspot.co.uk> Message-ID: <4B801F0C.2060204@arachelian.com> Roger Holmes wrote: > To say it is running again is a little bit misleading. A huge amount of work was done by my fellow members of the Computer Conservation Society, including some of the people who designed Colossus in the first place and it is great to have it but Winston Churchill had the Colossi(?) broken up into small bits and so this is a replica, an extraordinarily correct replica but a replica all the same, therefore it is now running, not running again. > > Apparently they had less problems getting the difficult bits working as the plans had been released from UK government archives, than the off the shelf 'commercial' items, plans of which had long since been lost except for the odd hoarder like me and probably you. Also thing like switches were available off the shelf, with a high priority job they had first call on things and selected Spitfire fighter switches which were then being produced in good quantities and good quality. > > I recently saw this tidbit: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/8486345.stm :) From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Feb 20 12:00:15 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 20 Feb 2010 13:00:15 -0500 Subject: Soldering (Was: Re: HP-IB, Amigo/cs80 ... ) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <073DBA46-7475-44ED-BEB4-19909D6EA468@neurotica.com> On Feb 19, 2010, at 3:52 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> Some of the best advice I got in college was from an EE professor who told >> us, "If you drop your soldering iron, don't try to catch it on the way >> down. Just let it go." > > I've heard much the same thing said about (turned-on) power saws... I think I've seen a band by that name. "The Turned-On Power Saws" (and if it isn't a band name, it certainly should be!) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From dm561 at torfree.net Sat Feb 20 12:47:25 2010 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Sat, 20 Feb 2010 13:47:25 -0500 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 78, Issue 47 Message-ID: <01CAB233.4F530EC0@MSE_D03> From: Ethan Dicks Subject: Re: Solderless breadboarding (and 68010 vs 68000) To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" >> [1] The local pound shop (a similar concept to dollar stores) was selling >> a camping lamp with 24 white LEDs for a pound. >I'd buy that for a pound! (and repurpose it, as you have). -ethan --------- Check your local Dollar store; I just happen to have a couple of those 24 LED lamps in front of me at this very moment that cost $1.50 ea. (modding and putting them under the kitchen cabinets). Lots of neat stuff in Dollar stores; amazing that they can sell a solar powered/battery backed scientific calculator for $1.00 these days, esp. considering shipping and several middlemen also making a profit... Button cells 5/$1, $7 ea. at the Shack... etc. From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Sat Feb 20 13:16:39 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sat, 20 Feb 2010 19:16:39 +0000 Subject: alternativ to catweasel In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B803517.10901@philpem.me.uk> Jacob Dahl Pind wrote: > > the was posted to a amiga ircchannel some time ago, > > http://www.softpres.org/glossary:kryoflux > > Looks interessing, if there will be better drivers and accessable info > for writing or chaning the code on it, drive situation cant be much > worse than what we have with the catweasel. As I see it, there are several issues: - No useful documentation! Not even a description of the output file format. - Software is a binary blob, like everything the SPS have ever released. They "intend" to release the sources, but I'm not holding my breath. - No I/O buffering. Wiring a TTL or CMOS I/O straight to a floppy drive usually doesn't work very well. Moreso if your I/Os are 0V/3.3V LVTTL or LVCMOS instead of 0V/5V TTL/CMOS. Voice of painful experience here... It's nice, and its release can only be a good thing. What I'd like to see is the price tag... -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sat Feb 20 13:27:49 2010 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sat, 20 Feb 2010 19:27:49 -0000 Subject: DEC Legacy Event, Windermere, UK, 17th-18th April Message-ID: <00c001cab262$caed5110$60c7f330$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> I am sending the message below on behalf of the organiser of this event, as he has been unable to resubscribe to the list: Greetings, I hope you don't mind me sending you an update on the DEC Legacy Event the weekend of 17th & 18th April this year. There are lots of exciting talks and demonstrations now lined up and lots of kit to use, with more to come in the weeks ahead. Please feel free to visit the website http://declegacy.org.uk for updates and come join us for an interesting and social weekend in the Lakes! Regards, Mark. Current highlights are: Kevin Murrell will be talking about the work at the National Museum of Computing and the Computer Conservation Society preserving and restoring DEC hardware. There will also be a video-link back to the museum to demonstrate some of their 'less portable' DEC equipment, including the Blacknest PDP/11 used for seismic monitoring and their VAX fault tolerant system. He's bringing along some choice exhibits in their collection including a PDP/8, DEC Mate III and DEC Professional running RT11. Colin Butcher is keeping us up to date by presenting technical details of the new OpenVMS 8.4 release (including Clustering over IP/DECnet over IP, performance enhancements etc.) as well as facilitate a mini-bootcamp where participants will get an opportunity to try their hand at installing VMS, clustering VMS or any other topic which is of suitable interest. Ian King from the Living Computer Museum is joining from the USA and is giving a presentation on the restoration of the DEC machines in their collection. These include a PDP-10 model 2065 running Tops-10, a TOAD-1 running TOPS-20 and a VAX-11/780-5 running OpenVMS 6.2. Dave Goodwin will be making a presentation on his PhD "Digital Equipment, its Rise and Fall" answering the research question whether the sale to Compaq was necessary or could DEC have survived on its own with the technology it had. Stephen 'Hoff' Hoffman, founder of HoffmanLabs, OpenVMS coder, publisher and regular presenter at OpenVMS-related events will be joining us for a presentation by video-link. Jim Austin, Professor of Neural Computing, University of York, will be demonstrating something of interest from his museum of DEC related hardware. Equipment that will be on show includes: PDP/8, DECmate III, DEC Professional running RT11, MicroVAX II & Microvax 3100 M80, VAXstation 4000/90, VAXstation VLC, DEC 3000/600 AXP, DEC AlphaServer 1000A, ALPHAbook 1 Laptop, HP ZX6000, HP RX2600 server... with more to come! From IanK at vulcan.com Sat Feb 20 13:38:16 2010 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Sat, 20 Feb 2010 11:38:16 -0800 Subject: DEC Legacy Event, Windermere, UK, 17th-18th April In-Reply-To: <00c001cab262$caed5110$60c7f330$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> References: <00c001cab262$caed5110$60c7f330$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: FYI: the Living Computer Museum presentation will be a joint one, including my colleague Rich Alderson. Rich has been an active member of the 36-bit community for many years. -- Ian ________________________________________ From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Rob Jarratt [robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com] Sent: Saturday, February 20, 2010 11:27 AM To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: DEC Legacy Event, Windermere, UK, 17th-18th April I am sending the message below on behalf of the organiser of this event, as he has been unable to resubscribe to the list: Greetings, I hope you don't mind me sending you an update on the DEC Legacy Event the weekend of 17th & 18th April this year. There are lots of exciting talks and demonstrations now lined up and lots of kit to use, with more to come in the weeks ahead. Please feel free to visit the website http://declegacy.org.uk for updates and come join us for an interesting and social weekend in the Lakes! Regards, Mark. Current highlights are: Kevin Murrell will be talking about the work at the National Museum of Computing and the Computer Conservation Society preserving and restoring DEC hardware. There will also be a video-link back to the museum to demonstrate some of their 'less portable' DEC equipment, including the Blacknest PDP/11 used for seismic monitoring and their VAX fault tolerant system. He's bringing along some choice exhibits in their collection including a PDP/8, DEC Mate III and DEC Professional running RT11. Colin Butcher is keeping us up to date by presenting technical details of the new OpenVMS 8.4 release (including Clustering over IP/DECnet over IP, performance enhancements etc.) as well as facilitate a mini-bootcamp where participants will get an opportunity to try their hand at installing VMS, clustering VMS or any other topic which is of suitable interest. Ian King from the Living Computer Museum is joining from the USA and is giving a presentation on the restoration of the DEC machines in their collection. These include a PDP-10 model 2065 running Tops-10, a TOAD-1 running TOPS-20 and a VAX-11/780-5 running OpenVMS 6.2. Dave Goodwin will be making a presentation on his PhD "Digital Equipment, its Rise and Fall" answering the research question whether the sale to Compaq was necessary or could DEC have survived on its own with the technology it had. Stephen 'Hoff' Hoffman, founder of HoffmanLabs, OpenVMS coder, publisher and regular presenter at OpenVMS-related events will be joining us for a presentation by video-link. Jim Austin, Professor of Neural Computing, University of York, will be demonstrating something of interest from his museum of DEC related hardware. Equipment that will be on show includes: PDP/8, DECmate III, DEC Professional running RT11, MicroVAX II & Microvax 3100 M80, VAXstation 4000/90, VAXstation VLC, DEC 3000/600 AXP, DEC AlphaServer 1000A, ALPHAbook 1 Laptop, HP ZX6000, HP RX2600 server... with more to come! From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Feb 20 13:19:53 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 20 Feb 2010 19:19:53 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Soldering (Was: Re: HP-IB, Amigo/cs80 ... ) In-Reply-To: <4B7F0003.3070606@verizon.net> from "Keith" at Feb 19, 10 04:17:55 pm Message-ID: > This is a pretty cool design for table saws: > > http://www.sawstop.com/ > > "We're passionate about preventing saw accidents. > That=92s why SawStop=AE saws are equipped with a safety > system to stop the blade within 5 milliseconds of > detecting contact with skin." I am not convinced. My main moan is that you have to replace the complete safety device if it trips? Why? I am darn sure you could make something as quick-acting that was resetable. Due to this, if it trips in the middle of a job and you don't have a spare one to hand, you are going to find some way to disable it. Which means you have no protection, but subconciously you will think you do and won't take as much care. Also, since you have to replace all the driver electronics every time (why not just the fuse wire?) how do you know it's going to work? If it was resetable, you could test it every month or som wy touching the side of a the blade with a soft metal rod. If it trips, fine, if not, you fix it. Better than that it not work when you need it. Of ocurse even if you're prepared to waste a safety module every month to do that test, it doesn't tell you anything. You don;t know the new one you've fitted is going to work. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Feb 20 13:28:08 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 20 Feb 2010 19:28:08 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Solderless breadboarding (and 68010 vs 68000) In-Reply-To: from "Ethan Dicks" at Feb 19, 10 04:18:52 pm Message-ID: > > [1] The local pound shop (a similar concept to dollar stores) was selling > > a camping lamp with 24 white LEDs for a pound. > > I'd buy that for a pound! (and repurpose it, as you have). Do I _hate_ that word. What's wrong with 'canibalise' or 'modify' as appropriate? Anyway, 'pound shops' (and I guess 'dollar stores') sell a lot of totally useless things IMHO (I would not buy tools from them), but occassionaly you get things that are actually quite useful, or a useful source of parts. Occoasionally they get bankrupt stock or ends of lines, and those can be good quality name-brnad products. Needless to say they're well worth buying. Incidentally, I was amazed how little current a white LED needs to give some glow. I found that if I held one lead of such an LED, touched the other one on the approraite terminal of a 9V battery and then touched the other terminal of the battery with my spare hand (thus using my hand-to-hand resistance as the limiting resistor), I got a dim, but certianly visible, glow from the LED. > > >> BTW, the article says it is an MC68008, so you did not need to count > >> 24 pins (on one side) :-) > > > > Oh, I didn't . I noticed it was a 0.6" wide package. The 68000 and 68010 > > DIL packages are 0.9" wide. > > Indeed. Quite distinctive. Not as distinctive as the 8X305. I think that's the only common chip in a 52 pin DIL pacakge (0.9" wide). > I have read about the 68012, but don't think I've seen one in the wild. Nor have I. I've net seen a full data sheet on it either. Some HP9000/200 machines (the -U models and the 9817) use a PGA-packaged 68010, and 27 (rather than 23) address lines go from the socket to the MMU circuitry. I've always assumed this is for a 68012 processor. I'd like to find one and try it, if onl;y to see if the '68010 Processor' messge in the power-on tests changes. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Feb 20 13:33:27 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 20 Feb 2010 19:33:27 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Soldering (Was: Re: HP-IB, Amigo/cs80 ... ) In-Reply-To: <4B7F1C4A.60406@jetnet.ab.ca> from "Ben" at Feb 19, 10 04:18:34 pm Message-ID: > Cooking takes time ... few people have that now days! Given that we now have all these devices that are supposed to save time, how come we hve less time than we used to? -tony From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Feb 20 13:50:33 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 20 Feb 2010 14:50:33 -0500 Subject: Soldering (Was: Re: HP-IB, Amigo/cs80 ... ) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Feb 20, 2010, at 2:33 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> Cooking takes time ... few people have that now days! > > Given that we now have all these devices that are supposed to save time, > how come we hve less time than we used to? To be fair, we're doing a LOT more stuff. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Sat Feb 20 12:48:35 2010 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Sat, 20 Feb 2010 18:48:35 -0000 Subject: Soldering (Was: Re: HP-IB, Amigo/cs80 ... ) References: <2820e7c8a368f747dd27ba1f20bdccc3.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com> <20100219163010.124644j96o8zoa68@aurigae.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <01ec01cab265$f31cc370$a87d5d0a@user8459cef6fa> I agree with the sharp knife comment, as I once accidentally stabbed my little finger (on my left hand) with a scalpel when I was at work. I was only 19 at the time, and am much more careful with scalpels now. Thankfully there was no blood, so it must have resealed when I removed it :) Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Friday, February 19, 2010 4:30 PM Subject: Re: Soldering (Was: Re: HP-IB, Amigo/cs80 ... ) > > My wife has always said the same about knives, especially considdering > she works in a biological lab where they have some prety sharp stuff. > Mind she also says that it's beter to have a sharp knife than a dull > one, as you tend to have to apply less pressure and therefore are less > likley to slip and cut yourself, and if you do it's a clean cut so > will heal / re-atatch easier :) > > Cheers. > > Phill. > From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Feb 20 14:03:52 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 20 Feb 2010 12:03:52 -0800 (PST) Subject: Soldering (Was: Re: HP-IB, Amigo/cs80 ... ) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20100220120310.G701@shell.lmi.net> > > Given that we now have all these devices that are supposed to save time, > > how come we hve less time than we used to? On Sat, 20 Feb 2010, Dave McGuire wrote: > To be fair, we're doing a LOT more stuff. in order to be able to afford more devices to save time, . . . From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Feb 20 14:06:33 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 20 Feb 2010 15:06:33 -0500 Subject: Soldering (Was: Re: HP-IB, Amigo/cs80 ... ) In-Reply-To: <20100220120310.G701@shell.lmi.net> References: <20100220120310.G701@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <459229EB-645D-4FC4-94CD-3023BEBD63DC@neurotica.com> On Feb 20, 2010, at 3:03 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >>> Given that we now have all these devices that are supposed to save time, >>> how come we hve less time than we used to? >> >> To be fair, we're doing a LOT more stuff. > > in order to be able to afford more devices to save time, . . . A.D.D. will become a the norm. ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From emu at e-bbes.com Sat Feb 20 14:10:47 2010 From: emu at e-bbes.com (e.stiebler) Date: Sat, 20 Feb 2010 13:10:47 -0700 Subject: Soldering (Was: Re: HP-IB, Amigo/cs80 ... ) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B8041C7.4080400@e-bbes.com> Tony Duell wrote: > Given that we now have all these devices that are supposed to save time, > how come we hve less time than we used to? Because we're answering email about absolutely OT BS, instead of doing what the original topic said ! ;-) From woodwp_98 at yahoo.com Sat Feb 20 15:16:10 2010 From: woodwp_98 at yahoo.com (WP Wood) Date: Sat, 20 Feb 2010 13:16:10 -0800 (PST) Subject: Collection Reduction Message-ID: <814220.37190.qm@web50702.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Hello, We are located in the Raleigh, NC area and have a three car garage with a single room above it. We are planning on converting this to an apt for my son. The problem is it's full of stuff I've collected since the early 80's. The collection is heavily slanted towards early computers and electronics. These pictures are of a single room, just showing different views of the collection when it was spread out prior to storing it into stacks. eCollection ( http://www.flickr.com/photos/60147280 at N00/sets/72157622274120485/ ) My question is, does anyone know of someone local to the Raleigh area that could help us in the sale of this? Regards, WPW From cclist at sydex.com Sat Feb 20 15:41:37 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 20 Feb 2010 13:41:37 -0800 Subject: Buffering - was Re: alternativ to catweasel In-Reply-To: <4B803517.10901@philpem.me.uk> References: , <4B803517.10901@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4B7FE691.3189.1064701@cclist.sydex.com> On 20 Feb 2010 at 19:16, Philip Pemberton wrote: > - No I/O buffering. Wiring a TTL or CMOS I/O straight to a floppy > drive usually doesn't work very well. Moreso if your I/Os are 0V/3.3V > LVTTL or LVCMOS instead of 0V/5V TTL/CMOS. Voice of painful experience > here... On the subject of OC buffering, please forgive a related question. I'm sitting here looking at the specs for the Pertec tape interface, which appears to call for a 38 ma OC output drive current. I assume the original intended driver is a 7438. I'd like to use a denser package to keep the parts count down. I've been looking at the 74F760 octal OC buffer, which appers to have the moxie to do the job, but is a relatively uncommon part. Would it be possible to use a more common darlington instead, say, a ULN2803? The thing that bothers me is the t(on) and t(off) timing, quoted at a max of 1 usec. Is it really that slow? Thoughts welcome! --Chuck From jack.rubin at ameritech.net Sat Feb 20 16:16:27 2010 From: jack.rubin at ameritech.net (Jack Rubin) Date: Sat, 20 Feb 2010 16:16:27 -0600 Subject: FC5025 USB 5.25 floppy controller - first report Message-ID: <43474040DF76449DB2F81F294255F52F@obie> I ordered my board as soon as I got the announcement on Thursday. I received the board today (Saturday) and took it for a spin - imaged an Apple 16-sector disk and an MSDOS 1.2M disk using a YD-380 as the source drive. Both worked great - the Apple disk produced a .dsk file that opened and read in CiderPress and the DOS disk produced a .img file that looked good in WinImage. I was tempted to hook it up to an 8" drive using my DBIT adapter but hesitated based on the discussions here. Would the DBIT adapter provide the necessary buffering to drive a Shugart 801? I really like the idea of an 8" drive connected to a netbook. Jack From cclist at sydex.com Sat Feb 20 16:22:21 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 20 Feb 2010 14:22:21 -0800 Subject: FC5025 USB 5.25 floppy controller - first report In-Reply-To: <43474040DF76449DB2F81F294255F52F@obie> References: <43474040DF76449DB2F81F294255F52F@obie> Message-ID: <4B7FF01D.4363.12B91B2@cclist.sydex.com> On 20 Feb 2010 at 16:16, Jack Rubin wrote: > I was tempted to hook it up to an 8" drive using my DBIT adapter but > hesitated based on the discussions here. Would the DBIT adapter > provide the necessary buffering to drive a Shugart 801? I really like > the idea of an 8" drive connected to a netbook. No--the DBIT adapter pretty much just employs a PIC to count the step pulses to derive TG40. AFAIK, the other signals aren't touched. --Chuck From fjgjr1 at aol.com Sat Feb 20 17:29:35 2010 From: fjgjr1 at aol.com (fjgjr1 at aol.com) Date: Sat, 20 Feb 2010 18:29:35 -0500 Subject: Collection Reduction In-Reply-To: <814220.37190.qm@web50702.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <814220.37190.qm@web50702.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8CC809BB26CE984-183C-E004@webmail-m071.sysops.aol.com> I would say you are going to at least make a "rough list" of what you have. I noticed a Kaypro, but what model / version. Can't see enough to really identify much. Good luck ! Contact www.vintage-computer.com and do a post. All the best ! Frank -----Original Message----- From: WP Wood To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Sent: Sat, Feb 20, 2010 4:16 pm Subject: Collection Reduction Hello, We are located in the Raleigh, NC area and have a three ar garage with a single room above it. We are planning on converting his to an apt for my son. The problem is it's full of stuff I've ollected since the early 80's. The collection is heavily slanted owards early computers and electronics. These pictures are of a ingle room, just showing different views of the collection when it was pread out prior to storing it into stacks. eCollection ( http://www.flickr.com/photos/60147280 at N00/sets/72157622274120485/ ) My question is, does anyone know of someone local to the Raleigh area that could elp us in the sale of this? Regards, WPW From rogpugh at mac.com Sat Feb 20 18:25:41 2010 From: rogpugh at mac.com (Roger Pugh) Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2010 00:25:41 +0000 Subject: Collection Reduction In-Reply-To: <814220.37190.qm@web50702.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <814220.37190.qm@web50702.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4B807D85.5030306@mac.com> WP Wood wrote: > Hello, > > We are located in the Raleigh, NC area and have a three > car garage with a single room above it. We are planning on converting > this to an apt for my son. The problem is it's full of stuff I've > collected since the early 80's. The collection is heavily slanted > towards early computers and electronics. > And your son doesnt want to live with all that? how odd!!! I'm sure many on here would! ;-) Rog From shumaker at att.net Sat Feb 20 20:55:54 2010 From: shumaker at att.net (steve shumaker) Date: Sat, 20 Feb 2010 21:55:54 -0500 Subject: Collection Reduction In-Reply-To: <814220.37190.qm@web50702.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <814220.37190.qm@web50702.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4B80A0BA.6030803@att.net> with that amount and variety, perhaps you ought to consider having someone hold an auction... An auction service would do the inventory as part of the pkg deal.... ss WP Wood wrote: > Hello, > > We are located in the Raleigh, NC area and have a three > car garage with a single room above it. We are planning on converting > this to an apt for my son. The problem is it's full of stuff I've > collected since the early 80's. The collection is heavily slanted > towards early computers and electronics. > > These pictures are of a > single room, just showing different views of the collection when it was > spread out prior to storing it into stacks. > > eCollection > > ( http://www.flickr.com/photos/60147280 at N00/sets/72157622274120485/ ) > > My question is, does anyone know of someone local to the Raleigh area that could help us in the sale of this? > > Regards, > > WPW > > From ian_primus at yahoo.com Sat Feb 20 21:23:55 2010 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Sat, 20 Feb 2010 19:23:55 -0800 (PST) Subject: Looking for a VT100 advanced video option board Message-ID: <329157.25990.qm@web52607.mail.re2.yahoo.com> I'm looking for a VT100 advanced video option board. Or, failing that, if anyone has a .100 spacing, 50 pin dual row female connector so I can makes one... The circuit is really simple, it's just a plug-in board that gives the VT100 some extra RAM so it can display 24 lines of text in 132 column mode, and do some extra character attributes. I cooked up plans to build my own based on the schematics in the printset (and using some newer SRAMs), but when I actually pulled the logic board out of the terminal I realized that the header connector it plugs into is a stupid spacing - .1 instead of the usual .156. -Ian From curt at atarimuseum.com Sat Feb 20 23:47:43 2010 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2010 00:47:43 -0500 Subject: FC5025 USB 5.25 floppy controller - first report In-Reply-To: <43474040DF76449DB2F81F294255F52F@obie> References: <43474040DF76449DB2F81F294255F52F@obie> Message-ID: <4B80C8FF.3070305@atarimuseum.com> I ordered mine the same time, hopefully it'll show up on Monday, looking really forward to trying it out. Curt Jack Rubin wrote: > I ordered my board as soon as I got the announcement on Thursday. I received > the board today (Saturday) and took it for a spin - imaged an Apple > 16-sector disk and an MSDOS 1.2M disk using a YD-380 as the source drive. > Both worked great - the Apple disk produced a .dsk file that opened and read > in CiderPress and the DOS disk produced a .img file that looked good in > WinImage. > > I was tempted to hook it up to an 8" drive using my DBIT adapter but > hesitated based on the discussions here. Would the DBIT adapter provide the > necessary buffering to drive a Shugart 801? I really like the idea of an 8" > drive connected to a netbook. > > Jack > > > From glen.slick at gmail.com Sun Feb 21 01:10:04 2010 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Sat, 20 Feb 2010 23:10:04 -0800 Subject: Looking for a VT100 advanced video option board In-Reply-To: <329157.25990.qm@web52607.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <329157.25990.qm@web52607.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1e1fc3e91002202310p3b5bf478j964f735c5370f4d2@mail.gmail.com> On Sat, Feb 20, 2010 at 7:23 PM, Mr Ian Primus wrote: > I'm looking for a VT100 advanced video option board. Or, failing that, if anyone has a .100 spacing, 50 pin dual row female connector so I can makes one... > Is this part compatible with what you need? EDAC 341-050-520-202 http://www.edac.net/file_library/series/49_341%20391.pdf Mouser has those in stock for $3.66 each. From huw.davies at mail.vsm.com.au Fri Feb 19 07:42:48 2010 From: huw.davies at mail.vsm.com.au (Huw Davies) Date: Sat, 20 Feb 2010 00:42:48 +1100 Subject: Living Computer Museum attending the DEC Legacy Event, Windermere, UK, 17-18 April 2010 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 19/02/2010, at 8:25 AM, Rich Alderson wrote: > Just wanted to let the European readers of CCtalk know that Ian King and I > will be at the DEC Legacy Event in Windermere in April, and have been invited > to give a presentation on the work we are doing at the Living Computer Museum. > > Details on the event are available at http://declegacy.org.uk > > We're looking forward to meeting lots of people there. I'd love to be there but my current travel plans don't get me to the UK until the 18th so I'll miss out by a day :-( Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies at kerberos.davies.net.au Melbourne | "If soccer was meant to be played in the Australia | air, the sky would be painted green" From jonas at otter.se Fri Feb 19 08:06:38 2010 From: jonas at otter.se (Jonas Otter) Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 15:06:38 +0100 Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 78, Issue 24 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <001501cab16c$c2043380$460c9a80$@se> > Message: 12 > Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 20:33:58 +0000 (GMT) > From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) > Subject: Re: HP-IB, Amigo/cs80 was Re: hp 9153 floppy & disk > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain > > some of them may even end up as products :-( I am sure I've told you > how > I once showed a so-called designer who wanted to use a microcontrolelr > module + input interface modules + ... as part of a control system that > his problem could be solved using few lengths of wire and otherwise > unused contacts on his relays and swithces. Hmmm... > > -tony > I used to work for Volvo, developing the maps for ECUs for engine control. One of my colleagues wanted a simple indicator showing the injection time, i.e. for how many milliseconds each engine revolution the injectors were open, to see how his mapping was working out in practice when test driving. He asked for help from the electronics lab, who came up with a proposal for a digital display, all-singing, all-dancing precision device which would cost $$$$$, come in a nice 19" case and take months to design. He went off and made his own indicator instead, using a 555, a moving-coil meter and some passive components. Quite a number of his devices were built for everybody else in the department, IIRC. /Jonas From nig.bailey at virgin.net Fri Feb 19 12:46:08 2010 From: nig.bailey at virgin.net (Nigel Bailey) Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 18:46:08 +0000 Subject: BBC S.E. news classic computer feature In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B7EDC70.7020407@virgin.net> Presumeably that's "Flossie" I watched the local BBC news, but we're in the Anglia region. Did you "youtube" the clip? From chrise at pobox.com Fri Feb 19 17:22:41 2010 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 17:22:41 -0600 Subject: Deep fried inductor... In-Reply-To: References: <20100218220440.GA2369@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <20100219232241.GL20320@n0jcf.net> On Friday (02/19/2010 at 08:20PM +0000), Tony Duell wrote: > > On the Siemens drives also used in the H89 and H17, there is an inductor > > in series with the +12 to the spindle motor. It's a hash choke that keeps > > the motor noise from going back into the +12 rail. When the grease in > > the spindle motor gets old and sticky, the motor draws way too much current > > at startup (if it ever does start spinning) and toasts this inductor. > > If this is the Siemens drive used in the Z90, I have the schematics here > (io the Z90 hardware manuals). I can't see an 'L5' at all, but the drive > I have has a separate motor control PCB with a series choke (but a 10uH > one) in the supply line. It's easily posible that later drives put > everything on one PCB (as Tandon did). Right... I think the OP said his problem occurred on a Wang or somesuch drive. Not a Siemens. I simply offered that on the Siemans, the choke was there to filter the supply to the motor... presumably to keep motor hash from getting back onto the 12V rail. My thinking was that something similar was going on in the drive that he has... without me knowing anything about the drive that he has obviously. Chris -- Chris Elmquist From csquared3 at tx.rr.com Fri Feb 19 22:27:14 2010 From: csquared3 at tx.rr.com (CSquared) Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 22:27:14 -0600 Subject: Tubes & Computers of Olden Days In-Reply-To: <93280CDC-EC76-4CEE-BEB8-F1C6C9CEA859@microspot.co.uk> References: <93280CDC-EC76-4CEE-BEB8-F1C6C9CEA859@microspot.co.uk> Message-ID: <4B7F64A2.4030608@tx.rr.com> Roger Holmes wrote: >> Gene Buckle wrote: >>> On Thu, 18 Feb 2010, William Donzelli wrote: >>> >>>> The chances of more tube computers coming out of the woodwork is very, >>>> very slim, but it has happened in the past few years. It is actually >>>> reasonable to think that someone could have an IBM 650 or Bendix G-15 >>>> tucked away in a basement or garage. >>>> >>> Here's one that last I heard was in service with the RAF: >>> >>> http://199.254.199.10/BehindTheScenes/lockheed.html >>> >>> The company that owned it was bankrupted by the training market downturn >>> after 9/11. It was sold in 2003. >>> >> I'm pretty sure Colossus is running again at Bletchley Park. I only >> wish I could get over there to see it in person. There are some youtube >> videos available. >> Later, >> Charlie C. > > To say it is running again is a little bit misleading. A huge amount of work was done by my fellow members of the Computer Conservation Society, including some of the people who designed Colossus in the first place and it is great to have it but Winston Churchill had the Colossi(?) broken up into small bits and so this is a replica, an extraordinarily correct replica but a replica all the same, therefore it is now running, not running again. > > Apparently they had less problems getting the difficult bits working as the plans had been released from UK government archives, than the off the shelf 'commercial' items, plans of which had long since been lost except for the odd hoarder like me and probably you. Also thing like switches were available off the shelf, with a high priority job they had first call on things and selected Spitfire fighter switches which were then being produced in good quantities and good quality. > > Roger Holmes > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Buried deeply somewhere in my brain I actually did know that, but thanks for the clarification. I'm afraid that since AFAIK it has been rebuilt as nearly as possible to the original schematics, I tend to think of it as equivalent to the original. I've followed the restoration (errr I mean re-creation - there I did it again!) as best I could from afar and have the utmost admiration for all the work that was done and for all those who participated. Even though I certainly agree it is a *new* colossus, I am still jealous of those who can see it in person. I do enjoy the video bits though, and always enjoy reading about the work that was done. For me, having a new colossus is just as priceless as it would have been to have had an original to restore. It is one of those things that is *just so right* - truly a national treasure. And that viewpoint is from a guy who has only been privileged to visit England once about 30 years ago... Later, Charlie C. From root at parse.com Sat Feb 20 13:25:22 2010 From: root at parse.com (Robert Krten) Date: Sat, 20 Feb 2010 14:25:22 -0500 (EST) Subject: Complete Museum for Sale (update) Message-ID: <201002201925.o1KJPMOW068105@amd64.ott.parse.com> I have now completed the detailed inventory of the museum. Please see: www.pdp12.org for the extensive list. I will be entertaining offers until Sunday, February the 28th for the entire museum in one lot. Contact me for details at rkrten at gmail.com. I will make a decision Monday, March 1st. Cheers, -RK -- Robert Krten From ian_primus at yahoo.com Sun Feb 21 08:45:55 2010 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2010 06:45:55 -0800 (PST) Subject: Looking for a VT100 advanced video option board In-Reply-To: <1e1fc3e91002202310p3b5bf478j964f735c5370f4d2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <798073.29295.qm@web52604.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- On Sun, 2/21/10, Glen Slick wrote: > > I'm looking for a VT100 advanced video option board. > Or, failing that, if anyone has a .100 spacing, 50 pin dual > row female connector so I can makes one... > > > > Is this part compatible with what you need? > > EDAC 341-050-520-202 > http://www.edac.net/file_library/series/49_341%20391.pdf > > Mouser has those in stock for $3.66 each. Unfortunately, it's not an edge connector, it's a header type connector. A dual row of pins on the board, spaced at .100. So, imagine a SCSI ribbon connector, but spaced at .100 instead of .156. -Ian From ian_primus at yahoo.com Sun Feb 21 08:47:41 2010 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2010 06:47:41 -0800 (PST) Subject: Looking for a VT100 advanced video option board In-Reply-To: <1e1fc3e91002202310p3b5bf478j964f735c5370f4d2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <926163.14748.qm@web52601.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- On Sun, 2/21/10, Glen Slick wrote: > > I'm looking for a VT100 advanced video option board. > Or, failing that, if anyone has a .100 spacing, 50 pin dual > row female connector so I can makes one... Hehe. Correction. It's .156 spacing instead of .100 spacing... That's what I get for sending email when tired. If it was .100, it would be easy :) -Ian From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sun Feb 21 09:09:39 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2010 07:09:39 -0800 Subject: EPROM programmer In-Reply-To: <926163.14748.qm@web52601.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <1e1fc3e91002202310p3b5bf478j964f735c5370f4d2@mail.gmail.com>, <926163.14748.qm@web52601.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi Does anyone use a PC-UPROG programmer. I picked one up a while back and down loaded code from the web. It runs all the checks but the program hangs when I try to do any operation like read the device. I was hoping someone else had the code to ensure that my code was working correctly. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail: Free, trusted and rich email service. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/201469228/direct/01/ From fryers at gmail.com Sun Feb 21 10:12:44 2010 From: fryers at gmail.com (Simon Fryer) Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2010 16:12:44 +0000 Subject: Tubes & Computers of Olden Days In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Also at the National Museum of Computing at Bletchley Park, the Harwell WITCH is currently being restored. See http://www.tnmoc.org/126/section.aspx/120 Only a couple of tubes - mainly for the power supply. It is a decimal machine and uses dekatrons. Simon -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "Well, an engineer is not concerned with the truth; that is left to philosophers and theologians: the prime concern of an engineer is the utility of the final product." Lectures on the Electrical Properties of Materials, L.Solymar, D.Walsh From emu at e-bbes.com Sun Feb 21 10:13:08 2010 From: emu at e-bbes.com (e.stiebler) Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2010 09:13:08 -0700 Subject: Looking for a VT100 advanced video option board In-Reply-To: <329157.25990.qm@web52607.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <329157.25990.qm@web52607.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4B815B94.4030600@e-bbes.com> Mr Ian Primus wrote: > I'm looking for a VT100 advanced video option board. Did you check ebay ? They show up there a lot. From cclist at sydex.com Sun Feb 21 10:22:23 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2010 08:22:23 -0800 Subject: Tubes & Computers of Olden Days In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: <4B80ED3F.14145.80037@cclist.sydex.com> On 21 Feb 2010 at 16:12, Simon Fryer wrote: > Also at the National Museum of Computing at Bletchley Park, the > Harwell WITCH is currently being restored. See > http://www.tnmoc.org/126/section.aspx/120 > > Only a couple of tubes - mainly for the power supply. It is a decimal > machine and uses dekatrons. Isn't there a Univac SS80 in Germany in private hands? The guy used to have a web site, but I can't find it. Magnetic core logic, but the clock driver uses a bunch of 4X150s and ISTR that the printer uses thyratrons. It was operational. If anything, the Univac Solid States are more unusual than vacuum- tube logic machines. --Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Feb 21 12:20:15 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2010 13:20:15 -0500 Subject: Tubes & Computers of Olden Days In-Reply-To: <4B80ED3F.14145.80037@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4B80ED3F.14145.80037@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Feb 21, 2010, at 11:22 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Isn't there a Univac SS80 in Germany in private hands? The guy used > to have a web site, but I can't find it. Magnetic core logic, but > the clock driver uses a bunch of 4X150s and ISTR that the printer > uses thyratrons. It was operational. 4X150s as clock drivers?!! -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cclist at sydex.com Sun Feb 21 12:31:19 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2010 10:31:19 -0800 Subject: Tubes & Computers of Olden Days In-Reply-To: References: , <4B80ED3F.14145.80037@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4B810B77.14864.7E0932@cclist.sydex.com> On 21 Feb 2010 at 13:20, Dave McGuire wrote: > On Feb 21, 2010, at 11:22 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > Isn't there a Univac SS80 in Germany in private hands? The guy used > > to have a web site, but I can't find it. Magnetic core logic, but > > the clock driver uses a bunch of 4X150s and ISTR that the printer > > uses thyratrons. It was operational. > > 4X150s as clock drivers?!! Yup, 6 of them, I seem to recall. In the type of logic used by the SS machines, it's the clock that furnishes all of the power for logic. I think the 4X150s are driven by 6146s. There are some good SS docs on bitsavers if you're curious about the machine. In the days of vacuum-tube systems, it was noted for its reliability. Transistor logic eventually rendered the technology obsolote. --Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Feb 21 12:32:00 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2010 18:32:00 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Looking for a VT100 advanced video option board In-Reply-To: <329157.25990.qm@web52607.mail.re2.yahoo.com> from "Mr Ian Primus" at Feb 20, 10 07:23:55 pm Message-ID: > > I'm looking for a VT100 advanced video option board. Or, failing that, > if anyone has a .100 spacing, 50 pin dual row female connector so I can > makes one... > > The circuit is really simple, it's just a plug-in board that gives the > VT100 some extra RAM so it can display 24 lines of text in 132 column > mode, and do some extra character attributes. I cooked up plans to build > my own based on the schematics in the printset (and using some newer > SRAMs), but when I actually pulled the logic board out of the terminal I > realized that the header connector it plugs into is a stupid spacing - > .1 instead of the usual .156. Haven;'t you got that last part backwards? The common 2-row pin headers are 0.1" pitch. IIRC the header for the Advanced Video Option is wider spacing, quite possibly 0.156", but I would measure it before tying to get something to fit (DEC also used 0.125" pitch connectors...) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Feb 21 12:33:32 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2010 18:33:32 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Looking for a VT100 advanced video option board In-Reply-To: <798073.29295.qm@web52604.mail.re2.yahoo.com> from "Mr Ian Primus" at Feb 21, 10 06:45:55 am Message-ID: > Unfortunately, it's not an edge connector, it's a header type > connector. A dual row of pins on the board, spaced at .100. So, imagine > a SCSI ribbon connector, but spaced at .100 instead of .156. Err, SCSI connectors (the ones you find on intenral drives, anyway) _are_ 0.1" spacing -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Feb 21 12:28:41 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2010 18:28:41 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Buffering - was Re: alternativ to catweasel In-Reply-To: <4B7FE691.3189.1064701@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Feb 20, 10 01:41:37 pm Message-ID: > > On 20 Feb 2010 at 19:16, Philip Pemberton wrote: > > > - No I/O buffering. Wiring a TTL or CMOS I/O straight to a floppy > > drive usually doesn't work very well. Moreso if your I/Os are 0V/3.3V > > LVTTL or LVCMOS instead of 0V/5V TTL/CMOS. Voice of painful experience > > here... > > On the subject of OC buffering, please forgive a related question. > > I'm sitting here looking at the specs for the Pertec tape interface, > which appears to call for a 38 ma OC output drive current. I assume > the original intended driver is a 7438. That could well be right -- or is it? IIRC the normal termination for Pertec interface lines was a 220R to +5V and a 330R to ground. Which gives Thevenin equivalent of a 3V source with a 132R internal resistance. So you need to sink about 22mA. That might be a little easier... > I'd like to use a denser package to keep the parts count down. Any particular reason why? I wouldn't have thpught it was much more work to solder a pair of 14 pin DIPs (2 off '38) rather than a single 20 pin device (I asusme that's the pacakge of the '760). If you don't need gating in the final bufffers, can't you use the '06 or '07, which would give you 6 signal drviers in a 14 pin package? > I've been looking at the 74F760 octal OC buffer, which appers to have > the moxie to do the job, but is a relatively uncommon part. > > Would it be possible to use a more common darlington instead, say, a > ULN2803? The thing that bothers me is the t(on) and t(off) timing, > quoted at a max of 1 usec. Is it really that slow? I could beleive it was. Darlingtons are slow, particularly at turning off (I beleive it's having to dump the charge from the base of the second transistor. There are various tricks to improve things, but they're only applicable if (a) you can make a connection to that base and (b) you have a -ve supply rail available (more -ve than the emitter of that second transistor). The first certainly doesn't apply to the ULN2803. -tony From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Feb 21 13:05:02 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2010 14:05:02 -0500 Subject: Tubes & Computers of Olden Days In-Reply-To: <4B810B77.14864.7E0932@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4B80ED3F.14145.80037@cclist.sydex.com>, <4B810B77.14864.7E0932@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <3628B437-FB0A-470C-A98C-F90F480D725D@neurotica.com> On Feb 21, 2010, at 1:31 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >>> Isn't there a Univac SS80 in Germany in private hands? The guy used >>> to have a web site, but I can't find it. Magnetic core logic, but >>> the clock driver uses a bunch of 4X150s and ISTR that the printer >>> uses thyratrons. It was operational. >> >> 4X150s as clock drivers?!! > > Yup, 6 of them, I seem to recall. In the type of logic used by the > SS machines, it's the clock that furnishes all of the power for > logic. Wow, a very interesting design. > I think the 4X150s are driven by 6146s. ...both of which I used as a kid as ham-band output stages! Scary! > There are some good SS docs on bitsavers if you're curious about the > machine. In the days of vacuum-tube systems, it was noted for its > reliability. Transistor logic eventually rendered the technology > obsolote. I'll look there for schematics. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cclist at sydex.com Sun Feb 21 13:12:02 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2010 11:12:02 -0800 Subject: Buffering - was Re: alternativ to catweasel In-Reply-To: References: <4B7FE691.3189.1064701@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Feb 20, 10 01:41:37 pm, Message-ID: <4B811502.14910.A350E6@cclist.sydex.com> On 21 Feb 2010 at 18:28, Tony Duell wrote: > Any particular reason why? I wouldn't have thpught it was much more > work to solder a pair of 14 pin DIPs (2 off '38) rather than a single > 20 pin device (I asusme that's the pacakge of the '760). If you don't > need gating in the final bufffers, can't you use the '06 or '07, which > would give you 6 signal drviers in a 14 pin package? It has to do with dedicating the real-estate to what amounts to 26 open-collector outputs (by ignoring some options, I could get it down to 24). That's 7 7438's. I may go with using the 7407s, though. At least they're commodity and easy to find if they need replacing. The package count (5 vs. 4 for octal buffers) difference is negligible. Since there's going to be only one controller per drive, I could also revert to plain old totem-pole output buffers as well, as the controller will probably be mounted right on the drive with only a few inches of cable. That broadens the array of choices considerably. Looking at the specs, you're right--the termination is 220/330. --Chuck From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Feb 21 14:22:39 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2010 15:22:39 -0500 Subject: CDC disk packs Message-ID: Some of you know that I have been selling some CDC disk packs on Ebay - ones I pulled out of CyberResources. I have noticed lately that there are some others selling packs on Ebay - and they are using the text from my auctions. My packs are either from Cyber's replacement stock, or are clearly marked as crashed - the ones on Ebay are not. Consider these other packs from these sneaky vendors as VERY QUESTIONABLE. My Ebay name is TOOBER. Currently I have no packs on auction. -- Will From emu at e-bbes.com Sun Feb 21 15:42:24 2010 From: emu at e-bbes.com (e.stiebler) Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2010 14:42:24 -0700 Subject: HP-IB, Amigo/cs80, again, connectors Message-ID: <4B81A8C0.8030605@e-bbes.com> OK, another question : a cheap source for the hp-ib, gpib connectors ? What I found so far is in the $ 20 range. (through hole, right angle, receptacle, ...) Cheers & Thanks From snhirsch at gmail.com Sun Feb 21 09:01:23 2010 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2010 10:01:23 -0500 (EST) Subject: FC5025 USB 5.25 floppy controller - first report In-Reply-To: <43474040DF76449DB2F81F294255F52F@obie> References: <43474040DF76449DB2F81F294255F52F@obie> Message-ID: On Sat, 20 Feb 2010, Jack Rubin wrote: > I ordered my board as soon as I got the announcement on Thursday. I received > the board today (Saturday) and took it for a spin - imaged an Apple > 16-sector disk and an MSDOS 1.2M disk using a YD-380 as the source drive. > Both worked great - the Apple disk produced a .dsk file that opened and read > in CiderPress and the DOS disk produced a .img file that looked good in > WinImage. > > I was tempted to hook it up to an 8" drive using my DBIT adapter but > hesitated based on the discussions here. Would the DBIT adapter provide the > necessary buffering to drive a Shugart 801? I really like the idea of an 8" > drive connected to a netbook. Jack, Why would a Shugart 801 represent a different load than a 5.25" drive? Aren't they both 5V TTL level interfaces? Steve -- From ddsnyder at zoominternet.net Sun Feb 21 10:56:24 2010 From: ddsnyder at zoominternet.net (Daniel Snyder) Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2010 11:56:24 -0500 Subject: Free for pickup - update - MicroC magazines - Roy from Illinois please reply.. References: <814220.37190.qm@web50702.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <4B80A0BA.6030803@att.net> Message-ID: <000701cab316$cd07e6e0$6501a8c0@HPD530> To all, After processing emails for the Micro Cornucopia and MicroSystems magazines, my WinXP PC's hard drive suffered (Actually I suffered) a failure and all emails from interested parties were lost. I know that a Roy from Illinois (rhyms..) was the first to answer....but I need this address. I believe that Teo will be receiving some PS/2 stuff as well. That leaves the Centronics and NEC spinwriter.. Dan Snyder - Butler, PA From cclist at sydex.com Sun Feb 21 16:14:26 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2010 14:14:26 -0800 Subject: FC5025 USB 5.25 floppy controller - first report In-Reply-To: References: <43474040DF76449DB2F81F294255F52F@obie>, Message-ID: <4B813FC2.26241.14A4D7E@cclist.sydex.com> On 21 Feb 2010 at 10:01, Steven Hirsch wrote: > Why would a Shugart 801 represent a different load than a 5.25" drive? > Aren't they both 5V TTL level interfaces? Pullups on late 5.25" (e.g. 1.2MB) floppies as well as 3.5" drives tend to be in the 2K range. Pullups on an 8" drive are almost always 150 ohms. How much current can that microcontroller sink for sustained periods? You might get away with it, but I wouldn't recommend it. Add to the mix that 8" drive cables are usually much longer than 5.25" or 3.5" cables (read: higher inductive load) and you have an "interesting" cocktail. I never could make my CW MK 3 work reliably with 8" drives until I constructed a buffer board. --Chuck From curt at atarimuseum.com Sun Feb 21 16:31:32 2010 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2010 17:31:32 -0500 Subject: CDC disk packs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B81B444.70609@atarimuseum.com> Will, to deal with such dirtbags, a lot of sellers make a printout sign of their ebay screen name and put it ontop of or next to the item they are selling so that the dirtbags can't reuse your images, or even better, put your ebay screen name as a watermark over the image and then they will have a harder time tampering with it. If you need me to help you out, send me images and I'll watermark them for you. Curt On 2/21/2010 3:22 PM, William Donzelli wrote: > Some of you know that I have been selling some CDC disk packs on Ebay > - ones I pulled out of CyberResources. > > I have noticed lately that there are some others selling packs on Ebay > - and they are using the text from my auctions. > > My packs are either from Cyber's replacement stock, or are clearly > marked as crashed - the ones on Ebay are not. Consider these other > packs from these sneaky vendors as VERY QUESTIONABLE. > > My Ebay name is TOOBER. Currently I have no packs on auction. > > -- > Will > > From fjgjr1 at aol.com Sun Feb 21 17:31:01 2010 From: fjgjr1 at aol.com (fjgjr1 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2010 18:31:01 -0500 Subject: Free for pickup - update - MicroC magazines - Roy from Illinois please reply.. In-Reply-To: <000701cab316$cd07e6e0$6501a8c0@HPD530> References: <814220.37190.qm@web50702.mail.re2.yahoo.com><4B80A0BA.6030803@att.net> <000701cab316$cd07e6e0$6501a8c0@HPD530> Message-ID: <8CC8165105167D9-3998-1B7C3@webmail-m098.sysops.aol.com> Dan, I would still be interested. I did contact you but you said they were previously spoken for. Since I am near Quakertown, PA, just south of Allentown, Pa, shipping may be cheaper than some. I did a post on www.vintage-computer.com about that they would be put on a DVD for all to use. But there are some legal matters that need to be resolved - e.g., copyright. I post under GADFRAN. They are very valuable for Kaypros in many ways. That is my area of expertise and research. My web site is WWW.KAYPROSTS.ORG You can also contact me thru my web site. Hopefully, they will get a good home and be available to all. Frank -----Original Message----- From: Daniel Snyder To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only Sent: Sun, Feb 21, 2010 11:56 am Subject: Free for pickup - update - MicroC magazines - Roy from Illinois please reply.. To all, After processing emails for the Micro Cornucopia and MicroSystems magazines, my WinXP PC's hard drive suffered (Actually I suffered) a failure and all emails from interested parties were lost. I know that a Roy from Illinois (rhyms..) was the first to answer....but I need this address. I believe that Teo will be receiving some PS/2 stuff as well. That leaves the Centronics and NEC spinwriter.. Dan Snyder - Butler, PA From teoz at neo.rr.com Sun Feb 21 18:11:49 2010 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2010 19:11:49 -0500 Subject: Free for pickup - update - MicroC magazines - Roy from Illinoisplease reply.. References: <814220.37190.qm@web50702.mail.re2.yahoo.com><4B80A0BA.6030803@att.net> <000701cab316$cd07e6e0$6501a8c0@HPD530> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Daniel Snyder" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" Sent: Sunday, February 21, 2010 11:56 AM Subject: Free for pickup - update - MicroC magazines - Roy from Illinoisplease reply.. > To all, > > After processing emails for the Micro Cornucopia and > MicroSystems magazines, my WinXP PC's hard drive > suffered (Actually I suffered) a failure and all emails from > interested parties were lost. > I know that a Roy from Illinois (rhyms..) was the first to > answer....but I need this address. > > I believe that Teo will be receiving some PS/2 stuff as well. > > That leaves the Centronics and NEC spinwriter.. > > Dan Snyder - Butler, PA I wanted the PS2-TV, Model 80, and a Model 70 486 From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Feb 21 19:09:29 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2010 20:09:29 -0500 Subject: CDC disk packs In-Reply-To: <4B81B444.70609@atarimuseum.com> References: <4B81B444.70609@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: > Will, to deal with such dirtbags, a lot of sellers make a printout sign of > their ebay screen name and put it ontop of or next to the item they are > selling so that the dirtbags can't reuse your images, or even better, put > your ebay screen name as a watermark over the image and then they will have > a harder time tampering with it. ? If you need me to help you out, send me > images and I'll watermark them for you. I have been thinking about doing this for some time, but never got around to it. Anyway, Ebay killed the auctions off quickly after I reported them. -- Will From hachti at hachti.de Sun Feb 21 19:12:46 2010 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2010 02:12:46 +0100 Subject: Collection Reduction In-Reply-To: <814220.37190.qm@web50702.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <814220.37190.qm@web50702.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4B81DA0E.5060602@hachti.de> Hi, > ( http://www.flickr.com/photos/60147280 at N00/sets/72157622274120485/ ) Cannot see that :-( Says "This page is private!" - Why?!? -- http://www.hachti.de From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Mon Feb 22 03:07:19 2010 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2010 10:07:19 +0100 Subject: Collection Reduction In-Reply-To: <4B81DA0E.5060602@hachti.de> References: <814220.37190.qm@web50702.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <4B81DA0E.5060602@hachti.de> Message-ID: <39396B89CDAB47BAB7B6181A64339C43@xp1800> > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Namens Philipp Hachtmann > Verzonden: maandag 22 februari 2010 2:13 > Aan: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Onderwerp: Re: Collection Reduction > > Hi, > > > > ( > http://www.flickr.com/photos/60147280 at N00/sets/72157622274120485/ ) > Cannot see that :-( > Says "This page is private!" - Why?!? > > > > -- > http://www.hachti.de They're gone, deleted I think. I've seen them Yesterday, mostly home computer stuff .. -Rik From ceby2 at csc.com Mon Feb 22 05:45:19 2010 From: ceby2 at csc.com (Colin Eby) Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2010 11:45:19 +0000 Subject: Tubes & Computers of Olden Days Message-ID: I'm rather surprised this thread hasn't brought up what has to be the most complete, working order, and fully programmable of the remaining tube machines. There are a couple of interesting systems in the process of restoration, but for my money, the best of the running examples is the Science Museum's (London's) Ferranti Pegasus. Unlike the Collosus replica, this is an actual relic, and recognizably a programmable computer in the modern sense. The Colossus and most of the later small systems are pegboard programmed and therefore cannot alter their instructions in flight. That Ferranti is demo'd regularly (though I never seem to be around on the right day). I'm sure everyone can do their own Googling, but it a pretty complete setup. I keep a loving photo of it in my office cubicle. Thanks, Colin Eby Technical Architect NR Performance Engineering CSC From lproven at gmail.com Mon Feb 22 12:10:12 2010 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2010 18:10:12 +0000 Subject: DOS versions compared Message-ID: <575131af1002221010s204bdd3bs6371715327ad6710@mail.gmail.com> I've just been setting up a couple of old PCs to go off to the ComputerAid charity. These are junkers: 1 ? Athlon XP 1800+, 640MB RAM, 1 ? Athlon XP 1700+, 768MB RAM; I've fitted both with 20GB hard disks, a DVD-ROM and a CDRW. Remarkably, this level of kit is what some term "skipware" now - just about the lowest spec that the charity will take. I tried both Linux Mint & TinyXP on them, but both hit snags, and I don't want to spend hours troubleshooting, so I downloaded FreeDOS 1.0 and bunged that on. Remarkably, FreeDOS now comes on CD - there is 150MB of it! The install is pretty fiddly, although it all works. On one of them it even autodetects a PCI Ethernet card & goes online. And to my amazement, I discovered that I'm credited in the README file for the bundled OpenGEM GUI. I am a bit torn over FreeDOS, though. I used to be a big fan of DR-DOS, back in the day, although in the end I saw & deployed far more MS-DOS boxes. :?( But FreeDOS seems to have surpassed both the standalone editions of MS-DOS (which ended at MS-DOS 6.22, although PC-DOS 2000 advanced on that in a few areas). FreeDOS boasts large (20GB) partition/filesystem support, FAT32, Win9x-style Long File Names, native networking, TCP/IP, CD-ROM & writer support, comes with dev tools, web browsers, email, games, all sorts. It's a hell of a DOS system! I was wondering if anyone here had used it in anger at all? How does it hold up compared to MS-DOS, the embedded DOS in Win9x, IBM PC DOS, DR-DOS in its commercial or FOSS incarnations...? -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? LiveJournal/Twitter: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From feldman.r at comcast.net Mon Feb 22 12:40:34 2010 From: feldman.r at comcast.net (feldman.r at comcast.net) Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2010 18:40:34 +0000 (UTC) Subject: OT: SawStop saws (was Re: Soldering) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <889531917.6723001266864034151.JavaMail.root@sz0065a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> I have a SawStop Contractor's saw and am pleased with it, even though I have not had the need to test its stopping feature. I did see one demonstrated with a hot dog at a trade show, though. The maker of the electronics (National Semi, IIRC) was doing the demo. The stop works by slamming a block of aluminum into the blade, so if it fires, you have to replace both the blade and the stop mechanism, which I consider a trivial cost compared to replacing one or more fingers! The electronics do have a POST, but you are right that there is no way to fully test the unit without destroying it. If you do not have a spare brake unit, there is a keyed over-ride. I think some of the reasoning in having to replace the whole brake unit is that (1) the electronics are a small part of the unit so the added cost is minor, and (2) there is much less chance of someone incorrectly installing the unit. While I would be willing to use a unit re-assembled by Tony, there too many incompetents out there who I would not trust to even plug in the unit correctly, much less reassemble one from parts. Bob ----- Original Message ----- Message: 6 Date: Sat, 20 Feb 2010 19:19:53 +0000 (GMT) From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Subject: Re: Soldering (Was: Re: HP-IB, Amigo/cs80 ... ) To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain > This is a pretty cool design for table saws: > > http://www.sawstop.com/ > > "We're passionate about preventing saw accidents. > That=92s why SawStop=AE saws are equipped with a safety > system to stop the blade within 5 milliseconds of > detecting contact with skin." I am not convinced. My main moan is that you have to replace the complete safety device if it trips? Why? I am darn sure you could make something as quick-acting that was resetable. Due to this, if it trips in the middle of a job and you don't have a spare one to hand, you are going to find some way to disable it. Which means you have no protection, but subconciously you will think you do and won't take as much care. Also, since you have to replace all the driver electronics every time (why not just the fuse wire?) how do you know it's going to work? If it was resetable, you could test it every month or som wy touching the side of a the blade with a soft metal rod. If it trips, fine, if not, you fix it. Better than that it not work when you need it. ?Of ocurse even if you're prepared to waste a safety module every month to do that test, it doesn't tell you anything. You don;t know the new one you've fitted is going to work. -tony From cclist at sydex.com Mon Feb 22 13:08:10 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2010 11:08:10 -0800 Subject: OT: SawStop saws (was Re: Soldering) In-Reply-To: <889531917.6723001266864034151.JavaMail.root@sz0065a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> References: , <889531917.6723001266864034151.JavaMail.root@sz0065a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <4B82659A.27902.A29C3C@cclist.sydex.com> On 22 Feb 2010 at 18:40, feldman.r at comcast.net wrote: > I have a SawStop Contractor's saw and am pleased with it, even though > I have not had the need to test its stopping feature. I did see one > demonstrated with a hot dog at a trade show, though. The maker of the > electronics (National Semi, IIRC) was doing the demo. Just curious; have you tried sawing through a sopping-wet pressure- treated 2x4 with it? --Chuck From roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk Mon Feb 22 13:21:43 2010 From: roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk (Roger Holmes) Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2010 19:21:43 +0000 Subject: BBC S.E. news classic computer feature In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <650F1B7C-BB93-42C7-9220-1DE0D41FE45D@microspot.co.uk> On 21 Feb 2010, at 07:45, cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > > Message: 26 > Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 18:46:08 +0000 > From: Nigel Bailey > Subject: Re: BBC S.E. news classic computer feature > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > Message-ID: <4B7EDC70.7020407 at virgin.net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > Presumeably that's "Flossie" > I watched the local BBC news, but we're in the Anglia region. Did you > "youtube" the clip? I think the BBC would not like me putting their copyright programmes up on U-tube. From brianlanning at gmail.com Mon Feb 22 13:25:45 2010 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2010 13:25:45 -0600 Subject: OT: SawStop saws (was Re: Soldering) In-Reply-To: <4B82659A.27902.A29C3C@cclist.sydex.com> References: <889531917.6723001266864034151.JavaMail.root@sz0065a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> <4B82659A.27902.A29C3C@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <6dbe3c381002221125t713e3c54gb4e6bb9757cdd5a4@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, Feb 22, 2010 at 1:08 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 22 Feb 2010 at 18:40, feldman.r at comcast.net wrote: > > > I have a SawStop Contractor's saw and am pleased with it, even though > > I have not had the need to test its stopping feature. I did see one > > demonstrated with a hot dog at a trade show, though. The maker of the > > electronics (National Semi, IIRC) was doing the demo. > > Just curious; have you tried sawing through a sopping-wet pressure- > treated 2x4 with it? > Pressure-treated boards trip the safety circuit. So you have to manually turn off the safety to cut pressure treaded boards. This is the main reason I haven't wanted one. (Although the price helped with that decision also.) I'm not sure how the manual safety shutoff works. I could be that you have to turn it off for each cut, in which case it's a matter of time before I accidentally don't turn it off. Or it could be that you have to remember to turn it back on, in which case I would forget to turn it back on. I'd much rather have passive blade guards that are obviously there or not. Another common problem, judging from the woodworking forums, is that people with upgraded miter gauges sometimes accidentally run the blade into their aluminum miter gauge. This trips the circuit also, ruining the blade and cartridge in addition to the miter gauge. On normal saws, the aluminum in the miter gauge doesn't damage the saw blade. I have to wonder what happens when there's metal imbedded in the wood also. And the sawstop does nothing (that any other saw doesn't do) to stop kickback. To me, that's a far greater danger than putting my fingers in the blade. There's this also: http://www.whirlwindtool.com/ ... although it looks big and clunky to me. I have a unisaw with a beismeyer snap-in spreader. I'm planning to make or buy an over-arm blade guard, but I haven't done it yet. That would enough to keep my fingers out of the blade. brian From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Mon Feb 22 13:34:40 2010 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2010 20:34:40 +0100 Subject: OT: white LEDs (was: Re: Solderless breadboarding (and 68010 vs 68000)) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20100222203440.1a61f2d4.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Sat, 20 Feb 2010 19:28:08 +0000 (GMT) ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > Incidentally, I was amazed how little current a white LED needs to give > some glow. The Cree XP-G gets up to 140 Lumen at 1 Watt. It can be driven with 3 Watts i.e. 1 A current but efficiency will drop. So it gets "only" around 350 Lumen at 3 Watt. I have some of those LEDs. They emit so much light that it will burn your finger when you touch the top of the LED. This is only caused by the energy of the light that gets absorbed by the skin. The LEDs stays cool. (OK. They are mounted on a big heat sink.) Nichia has low power LEDs that achieve up to 150 Lumen per Watt. White LEDs have become one of the most efficient light sources. -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk Mon Feb 22 13:42:00 2010 From: roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk (Roger Holmes) Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2010 19:42:00 +0000 Subject: Tubes & Computers of Olden Days In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 22 Feb 2010, at 18:00, cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > > Message: 19 > Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2010 11:45:19 +0000 > From: Colin Eby > Subject: Re: Tubes & Computers of Olden Days > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII > > > I'm rather surprised this thread hasn't brought up what has to be the most > complete, working order, and fully programmable of the remaining tube > machines. There are a couple of interesting systems in the process of > restoration, but for my money, the best of the running examples is the > Science Museum's (London's) Ferranti Pegasus. Unlike the Collosus replica, > this is an actual relic, and recognizably a programmable computer in the > modern sense. The Colossus and most of the later small systems are > pegboard programmed and therefore cannot alter their instructions in > flight. That Ferranti is demo'd regularly (though I never seem to be around > on the right day). I'm sure everyone can do their own Googling, but it a > pretty complete setup. I keep a loving photo of it in my office cubicle. > > Thanks, > Colin Eby > Technical Architect > NR Performance Engineering > CSC > I think you were right, and I hope you will be again, but last thing I heard was there had been an incident and it was shut down awaiting a health and safety review. If my memory serves me right some twit reported the blown fuse had asbestos in it. I expect most of the steam boilers in the building do too. We've gone health and safety mad, but when I reported someone had fly tipped a load of asbestos on a country verge the council collected 75% of it and left the rest behind and now some of it has got driven over and is being pulverised into the mud. Roger Holmes, Computer Conservation Society and 1301 working party member From cclist at sydex.com Mon Feb 22 13:47:10 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2010 11:47:10 -0800 Subject: OT: white LEDs (was: Re: Solderless breadboarding (and 68010 vs 68000)) In-Reply-To: <20100222203440.1a61f2d4.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: , , <20100222203440.1a61f2d4.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <4B826EBE.30314.C6538B@cclist.sydex.com> On 22 Feb 2010 at 20:34, Jochen Kunz wrote: > White LEDs have become one of the most efficient light sources. Is that really true? I would have suspected that red LEDs would be far more efficient in terms of lumens-per-watt. The drawback being that they're monochromatic. --Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Feb 22 14:33:35 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2010 20:33:35 +0000 (GMT) Subject: FC5025 USB 5.25 floppy controller - first report In-Reply-To: from "Steven Hirsch" at Feb 21, 10 10:01:23 am Message-ID: > > Why would a Shugart 801 represent a different load than a 5.25" drive? > Aren't they both 5V TTL level interfaces? A Shigart 801 would be the same load as a 'classic' 5.25" drive, but not the same as a modern-ish half-height ex-PC drive. The difference is the termination/pull-up resistors. The original spec (for 8" -- SUhgart SA800 series, etc, 5.25" -- Shugaert SA400 series, etc and 3" (not 3.5") -- Hitachi, etc) was to have a removeable 150Ohm termination resistor package. This was fitted on the last drive on the interface cale (that is the drive furthest from the controller) only, and acted both as a pull-up for the open-collector drivers used and as a termination for the cable. So of course the driver chips have to be able to sink 5V/150Ohms = 33mA 3.5" drives and later 5.25" ones have non-removable pull-up resistors (I won't call them terminators, they don't even attempt to match the characteristic impedance of the cable). These are normally about 1k (I've seen various values), and are fitted on all drives. Of course if you have 2 drives on the cable, uou get the 2 pull-up resistors in parallel, and so on. Electrically, this is the wrong thing to do (the cable should be terminated), but it's probably OK you have a shert interface cable (the drives are in a PC cabinet along with the controller. It suprisies me, actually, that even early 3.5" drives (like the full-height Sony units) didn't ahve proepr termination resistors. Another issue sprints to mind. The termination resisotr pack in the drive terminated/pulled up the signals from the controller to the drive only. The signals from drive to controller were terminated by 150 ohm rsistors on the cotnroller PCB. So the drive outputs have to be able to sink 33mA too. I know that the full-height Sony 3.5" drives used 7438s to drive these lines, and coule sink that current. What about more modern drives? Is there a problem with linking those to a 'classic' controller board? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Feb 22 14:39:36 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2010 20:39:36 +0000 (GMT) Subject: HP-IB, Amigo/cs80, again, connectors In-Reply-To: <4B81A8C0.8030605@e-bbes.com> from "e.stiebler" at Feb 21, 10 02:42:24 pm Message-ID: > > OK, another question : > a cheap source for the hp-ib, gpib connectors ? > What I found so far is in the $ 20 range. > (through hole, right angle, receptacle, ...) It won;t save you any money, but what I normally do is use an IDC 24 pin microribbon socket, a short lenght of IDC cable and a 25 pin header plug and socket to connect it to the PCB. The reason is that hte pins of a microribbon connector are not at 0.1" pitch which makes laying out the PCB a little harder, and protoyping the design on stripboard or square pad board a lot harder. Of course you can use one cable assembly (microribon socket - header socket) for several different prototypes. I would advise against buying cheap IDC microribbon connectors. I did, and had problemes getting them to make reliable connections ot the cable. In the end I bought the (much more expensive) 3M ones, and had no prolems at all (I would have ought those in the first place, but I didn't realise I could get them easily). The part you will have prolems getting is the jackpost to screw the GPIB cable jackscrews iunto. The female thread is M3.5 (3.5mm diameter, 0.6mm pitch IIRC). The male thread, used to fit it to the socket/panel is anything you like (often 6-32 UNC). I haev found no source of jackposts with an M3.5 female thread, I resort to making my own, but then I have plenty of time and a reasoanble workshop. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Feb 22 14:42:02 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2010 20:42:02 +0000 (GMT) Subject: FC5025 USB 5.25 floppy controller - first report In-Reply-To: <4B813FC2.26241.14A4D7E@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Feb 21, 10 02:14:26 pm Message-ID: > You might get away with it, but I wouldn't recommend it. Add to the > mix that 8" drive cables are usually much longer than 5.25" or 3.5" > cables (read: higher inductive load) and you have an "interesting" Isn;'t it the extra capacitance (from the longer cable) that's the problem? > cocktail. I never could make my CW MK 3 work reliably with 8" drives > until I constructed a buffer board. I was going to ask that. What is the problem with construction an add-on buffer board, say using 74x07 chips and pull-up resistors, to interface between the microcontroller/USB interface thingy/... and thr 8" driv -tony From pete at dunnington.plus.com Mon Feb 22 15:31:57 2010 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2010 21:31:57 +0000 Subject: FC5025 USB 5.25 floppy controller - first report In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B82F7CD.9000801@dunnington.plus.com> On 22/02/2010 20:33, Tony Duell wrote: > Another issue sprints to mind. The termination resisotr pack in the > drive terminated/pulled up the signals from the controller to the drive > only. The signals from drive to controller were terminated by 150 ohm > rsistors on the cotnroller PCB. So the drive outputs have to be able to > sink 33mA too. I know that the full-height Sony 3.5" drives used 7438s to > drive these lines, and coule sink that current. What about more modern > drives? Is there a problem with linking those to a 'classic' controller > board? We used to see problems on Acorn Archimedes machines, which had internal modern-style 3.5" drives and LS TTL drivers. Adding a normal 5.25" drive often didn't work because there was not enough drive current. However, changing the LS TTL for standard TTL fixed that, and the internal 3.5" still worked fine. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From als at thangorodrim.de Mon Feb 22 15:35:45 2010 From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber) Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2010 22:35:45 +0100 Subject: OT: white LEDs (was: Re: Solderless breadboarding (and 68010 vs 68000)) In-Reply-To: <4B826EBE.30314.C6538B@cclist.sydex.com> References: <20100222203440.1a61f2d4.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <4B826EBE.30314.C6538B@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20100222213545.GA28992@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> On Mon, Feb 22, 2010 at 11:47:10AM -0800, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 22 Feb 2010 at 20:34, Jochen Kunz wrote: > > > White LEDs have become one of the most efficient light sources. > > Is that really true? I would have suspected that red LEDs would be > far more efficient in terms of lumens-per-watt. The drawback being > that they're monochromatic. What works in favour of the white LEDs is that everybody has been working _real_ hard to get their output _way_ up. For the other colors, the pressure for more light isn't that intense. Although by now the LED light output in general is high enough that they are used in traffic lights (a lot of the traffic lights around here (Zurich) use LEDs). Regards, Alex. -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Mon Feb 22 16:01:00 2010 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2010 23:01:00 +0100 Subject: OT: white LEDs (was: Re: Solderless breadboarding (and 68010 vs 68000)) In-Reply-To: <4B826EBE.30314.C6538B@cclist.sydex.com> References: <20100222203440.1a61f2d4.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <4B826EBE.30314.C6538B@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20100222230100.58bd2570.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Mon, 22 Feb 2010 11:47:10 -0800 "Chuck Guzis" wrote: > > White LEDs have become one of the most efficient light sources. > Is that really true? I would have suspected that red LEDs would be > far more efficient in terms of lumens-per-watt. Well. I meant LED in general, white in special, in contrast to e.g. CFL, HID, sulfur, ... Also take in account that the human eye has a fairly low sensitivity for red light. Lumens are weightend by the spectral sesitivity of the human eye. -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From cclist at sydex.com Mon Feb 22 16:03:31 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2010 14:03:31 -0800 Subject: FC5025 USB 5.25 floppy controller - first report In-Reply-To: References: <4B813FC2.26241.14A4D7E@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Feb 21, 10 02:14:26 pm, Message-ID: <4B828EB3.8893.143273B@cclist.sydex.com> On 22 Feb 2010 at 20:42, Tony Duell wrote: > > You might get away with it, but I wouldn't recommend it. Add to the > > mix that 8" drive cables are usually much longer than 5.25" or 3.5" > > cables (read: higher inductive load) and you have an "interesting" > > Isn;'t it the extra capacitance (from the longer cable) that's the > problem? There's that, but the issue of using a long cable with totem-pole drivers creates interesting issues with under- and over-shoot. ISTR that there are situations where a large inductance driven with a CMOS totem-pole can result in both the pull-up and -down transistors being momentarily turned on. Clamping diodes could minimize that. > I was going to ask that. What is the problem with construction an > add-on buffer board, say using 74x07 chips and pull-up resistors, to > interface between the microcontroller/USB interface thingy/... and thr > 8" driv That's exactly what I did--and mounted the thing on a PC-type bracket with a DC-37F connector on it. Two birds with one stone--an external drive connector and ample drive capability. For good measure, I added some schmitt trigger receivers with their own 150 ohm pullups. --Chuck From keithvz at verizon.net Mon Feb 22 16:04:27 2010 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith) Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2010 17:04:27 -0500 Subject: OT: white LEDs (was: Re: Solderless breadboarding (and 68010 vs 68000)) In-Reply-To: <20100222213545.GA28992@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> References: <20100222203440.1a61f2d4.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <4B826EBE.30314.C6538B@cclist.sydex.com> <20100222213545.GA28992@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> Message-ID: <4B82FF6B.7010807@verizon.net> Alexander Schreiber wrote: > Although by now the LED light output in general is high enough that they > are used in traffic lights (a lot of the traffic lights around here > (Zurich) use LEDs). > > Regards, > Alex. For what it's worth, I'd imagine most cities either already have, or are starting to use LED traffic lights. We have had LED traffic lights in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, USA for at least a couple years. I might even be willing to bet that most(all?) new lights installed around here are LED. Keith From cclist at sydex.com Mon Feb 22 16:10:43 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2010 14:10:43 -0800 Subject: OT: white LEDs (was: Re: Solderless breadboarding (and 68010 vs 68000)) In-Reply-To: <20100222213545.GA28992@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> References: <20100222203440.1a61f2d4.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>, <4B826EBE.30314.C6538B@cclist.sydex.com>, <20100222213545.GA28992@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> Message-ID: <4B829063.19896.149BF87@cclist.sydex.com> On 22 Feb 2010 at 22:35, Alexander Schreiber wrote: > Although by now the LED light output in general is high enough that > they are used in traffic lights (a lot of the traffic lights around > here (Zurich) use LEDs). I see them in tailights for buses and trucks also. They have a somewhat different color (narrower spectral distribution) than filtered incandescent lamps. Initially, I mystified my wife by being able to pick out LED stoplights from several blocks distance. I'm very sensitive (for some unknown reason) to flicker and those line-powered traffic lights evidently were pretty high on ripple. More recent ones don't display that effect, so the power supplies must have improved. However, to my eye, the biggest abomination are cheap Christmas tree LED lights with very pronouced flicker. I haven't researched it, but I suspect that the LEDs in such strings are hooked in series and used to self-rectify the line current. I picked up a couple of strings last month at the local "dollar" store--they're GE-branded. Come Christmas, I run them off of a nice filtered DC supply--or at least a full-wave bridge. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Mon Feb 22 16:29:11 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2010 14:29:11 -0800 Subject: OT: white LEDs (was: Re: Solderless breadboarding (and 68010 vs 68000)) In-Reply-To: <20100222230100.58bd2570.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: , <4B826EBE.30314.C6538B@cclist.sydex.com>, <20100222230100.58bd2570.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <4B8294B7.31018.15AA536@cclist.sydex.com> On 22 Feb 2010 at 23:01, Jochen Kunz wrote: > Well. I meant LED in general, white in special, in contrast to e.g. > CFL, HID, sulfur, ... Also take in account that the human eye has a > fairly low sensitivity for red light. Lumens are weightend by the > spectral sesitivity of the human eye. - LED street lights are beginning to appear on some California streets. As I understand it, there is less light output in absolute terms, but the overall effect is one of providing more useful illumination than the traditional high-pressure sodium lamps. See: http://cbs5.com/video/?id=48013 at kpix.dayport.com for a video report. At amazon.com, you can even purchase a 100 watt LED luminaire for US$720. http://www.amazon.com/Energy-Saving-Street-Meters- Illuminated/dp/B000QY0L54 In my lifetime, I've seen street lighting move from incandescent to mercury vapor (horrible light quality) to low-pressure sodium (yellow) to high-pressure sodium. LEDs look like a winner and may well reduce some of the night-sky "light pollution". --Chuck From curt at atarimuseum.com Mon Feb 22 16:56:43 2010 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2010 17:56:43 -0500 Subject: OT: white LEDs In-Reply-To: <4B8294B7.31018.15AA536@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4B826EBE.30314.C6538B@cclist.sydex.com>, <20100222230100.58bd2570.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <4B8294B7.31018.15AA536@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4B830BAB.1000908@atarimuseum.com> Nice!!! Definitely should see those nationwide, its ashame they cost so much which I mean - they are LED's, they are a couple of cents each, its this all profit gouging on Green Products??? Curt Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 22 Feb 2010 at 23:01, Jochen Kunz wrote: > > >> Well. I meant LED in general, white in special, in contrast to e.g. >> CFL, HID, sulfur, ... Also take in account that the human eye has a >> fairly low sensitivity for red light. Lumens are weightend by the >> spectral sesitivity of the human eye. - >> > > LED street lights are beginning to appear on some California streets. > As I understand it, there is less light output in absolute terms, but > the overall effect is one of providing more useful illumination than > the traditional high-pressure sodium lamps. See: > > http://cbs5.com/video/?id=48013 at kpix.dayport.com > > for a video report. > > At amazon.com, you can even purchase a 100 watt LED luminaire for > US$720. > > http://www.amazon.com/Energy-Saving-Street-Meters- > Illuminated/dp/B000QY0L54 > > In my lifetime, I've seen street lighting move from incandescent to > mercury vapor (horrible light quality) to low-pressure sodium > (yellow) to high-pressure sodium. LEDs look like a winner and may > well reduce some of the night-sky "light pollution". > > --Chuck > > > From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Feb 22 17:16:39 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2010 18:16:39 -0500 Subject: OT: white LEDs (was: Re: Solderless breadboarding (and 68010 vs 68000)) In-Reply-To: <4B82FF6B.7010807@verizon.net> References: <20100222203440.1a61f2d4.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <4B826EBE.30314.C6538B@cclist.sydex.com> <20100222213545.GA28992@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> <4B82FF6B.7010807@verizon.net> Message-ID: <75154262-A4D3-4D72-86CE-5E1C7264EA44@neurotica.com> On Feb 22, 2010, at 5:04 PM, Keith wrote: >> Although by now the LED light output in general is high enough that they >> are used in traffic lights (a lot of the traffic lights around here >> (Zurich) use LEDs). >> Regards, >> Alex. > > For what it's worth, I'd imagine most cities either already have, or are starting to use LED traffic lights. We have had LED traffic lights in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, USA for at least a couple years. I might even be willing to bet that most(all?) new lights installed around here are LED. I see incandescent traffic lights every once in a while, but rarely. Most everything I've seen for the past few years is LED. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From als at thangorodrim.de Mon Feb 22 17:57:44 2010 From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber) Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2010 00:57:44 +0100 Subject: OT: white LEDs (was: Re: Solderless breadboarding (and 68010 vs 68000)) In-Reply-To: <4B829063.19896.149BF87@cclist.sydex.com> References: <20100222213545.GA28992@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> <4B829063.19896.149BF87@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20100222235744.GB28992@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> On Mon, Feb 22, 2010 at 02:10:43PM -0800, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 22 Feb 2010 at 22:35, Alexander Schreiber wrote: > > > Although by now the LED light output in general is high enough that > > they are used in traffic lights (a lot of the traffic lights around > > here (Zurich) use LEDs). > > I see them in tailights for buses and trucks also. They have a > somewhat different color (narrower spectral distribution) than > filtered incandescent lamps. The local trains also have some locomotives with LED clusters for tail and front lights (but they also have incandescent front lights as well). > > Initially, I mystified my wife by being able to pick out LED > stoplights from several blocks distance. I'm very sensitive (for > some unknown reason) to flicker and those line-powered traffic lights > evidently were pretty high on ripple. More recent ones don't display > that effect, so the power supplies must have improved. > > However, to my eye, the biggest abomination are cheap Christmas tree > LED lights with very pronouced flicker. I haven't researched it, but > I suspect that the LEDs in such strings are hooked in series and used > to self-rectify the line current. Those have been popping up around here with a vengeance. You can usually pick them out by color alone: really _white_ instead of the yellow to yellowish white you tend to get with incandescents. I've also seen decorative light lines on at least one of the Zuerisee passenger ships here: It's got to be LED since it a) changes color b) has very "clean" colors, the typical narrow spectrum of LEDs Regards, Alex. -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Mon Feb 22 18:42:41 2010 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2010 18:42:41 -0600 Subject: OT: white LEDs (was: Re: Solderless breadboarding (and 68010 vs 68000)) In-Reply-To: <75154262-A4D3-4D72-86CE-5E1C7264EA44@neurotica.com> References: <20100222203440.1a61f2d4.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <4B826EBE.30314.C6538B@cclist.sydex.com> <20100222213545.GA28992@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> <4B82FF6B.7010807@verizon.net> <75154262-A4D3-4D72-86CE-5E1C7264EA44@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4B832481.9040700@gmail.com> Dave McGuire wrote: > On Feb 22, 2010, at 5:04 PM, Keith wrote: >>> Although by now the LED light output in general is high enough that >>> they are used in traffic lights (a lot of the traffic lights around >>> here (Zurich) use LEDs). Regards, Alex. >> For what it's worth, I'd imagine most cities either already have, or are >> starting to use LED traffic lights. We have had LED traffic lights in >> Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, USA for at least a couple years. I might even >> be willing to bet that most(all?) new lights installed around here are >> LED. > > I see incandescent traffic lights every once in a while, but rarely. Most > everything I've seen for the past few years is LED. I see quite a few incandescents up here in northern MN still; it's rumored that the harsh winters cause problems with the LED ones - they just don't output enough heat, so snow and ice can build up and obscure them. Maybe the current generation have built-in heaters to combat this (which still doesn't make them pointless, I suppose, as LEDs should need far less 'bulb changes') cheers Jules From als at thangorodrim.de Mon Feb 22 18:40:38 2010 From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber) Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2010 01:40:38 +0100 Subject: OT: white LEDs In-Reply-To: <4B830BAB.1000908@atarimuseum.com> References: <20100222230100.58bd2570.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <4B8294B7.31018.15AA536@cclist.sydex.com> <4B830BAB.1000908@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <20100223004038.GC28992@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> On Mon, Feb 22, 2010 at 05:56:43PM -0500, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > Nice!!! Definitely should see those nationwide, its ashame they > cost so much which I mean - they are LED's, they are a couple of cents > each, its this all profit gouging on Green Products??? A couple of cents? Yeah, for the small low power (<< 1 W) ones you use for indicators in electronics or christmas tree lights. The high power stuff is still rather pricey. While I've no doubt that the manufacturers are milking every cent of profit they can, those _aren't_ that cheap or easy to produce, otherwise every semiconductor fablet in china would make them by the barrel. Also, make no mistake, the "green" aspect takes a second (or third) seat to more important aspects when deploying LED for things like traffic signs and such. Especially for traffic sings, while the LED versions most likely are significantly more expensive than incandescents, they are big money savers in maintenance (getting someone up with a ladder to change bulbs every once in a while ain't that cheap, especially in places like Switzerland where there _is_ no dirt cheap labor) and operating costs (power bills). The reduced power consumption of course lends itself to being toutet as "greener" ;-) Regards, Alex. -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison From pete at dunnington.plus.com Mon Feb 22 18:49:13 2010 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2010 00:49:13 +0000 Subject: OT: white LEDs (was: Re: Solderless breadboarding (and 68010 vs 68000)) In-Reply-To: <4B829063.19896.149BF87@cclist.sydex.com> References: <20100222203440.1a61f2d4.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>, <4B826EBE.30314.C6538B@cclist.sydex.com>, <20100222213545.GA28992@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> <4B829063.19896.149BF87@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4B832609.6040303@dunnington.plus.com> On 22/02/2010 22:10, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 22 Feb 2010 at 22:35, Alexander Schreiber wrote: > >> Although by now the LED light output in general is high enough that >> they are used in traffic lights (a lot of the traffic lights around >> here (Zurich) use LEDs). > > I see them in tailights for buses and trucks also. They have a > somewhat different color (narrower spectral distribution) than > filtered incandescent lamps. All the traffic lights here have been LEDs for several years. I also see them in tail lights of cars and other vehicles. A few years ago, the law for bicycle lights was changed to make LEDs legal (it used to specify a certain wattage of 6V bulb, which now seems pretty silly given the way intensity varies a lot with small voltage changes). -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From tpeters at mixcom.com Mon Feb 22 19:07:40 2010 From: tpeters at mixcom.com (Tom Peters) Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2010 19:07:40 -0600 Subject: OT: white LEDs In-Reply-To: <20100223004038.GC28992@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> References: <4B830BAB.1000908@atarimuseum.com> <20100222230100.58bd2570.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <4B8294B7.31018.15AA536@cclist.sydex.com> <4B830BAB.1000908@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20100222190459.0c608f00@localhost> Here in the heart of the frozen midwest, where traffic signals have been mass changed to LEDs, we have another problem. In the past, snow and ice didn't accumulate in the traffic signal light housings stuck to the lens unless there was a lot of wind in the right direction. Even then, the signals were incandescent bulbs and kept it melted off. Now with LEDs, that doesn't happen, and more wintertime maintenance is required. Though it's still not as much as all the bulb-changing that used to be necessary. At 01:40 AM 2/23/2010 +0100, you wrote: >On Mon, Feb 22, 2010 at 05:56:43PM -0500, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > > Nice!!! Definitely should see those nationwide, its ashame they > > cost so much which I mean - they are LED's, they are a couple of cents > > each, its this all profit gouging on Green Products??? > >A couple of cents? Yeah, for the small low power (<< 1 W) ones you use >for indicators in electronics or christmas tree lights. The high power >stuff is still rather pricey. While I've no doubt that the manufacturers >are milking every cent of profit they can, those _aren't_ that cheap or >easy to produce, otherwise every semiconductor fablet in china would >make them by the barrel. > >Also, make no mistake, the "green" aspect takes a second (or third) seat >to more important aspects when deploying LED for things like traffic >signs and such. Especially for traffic sings, while the LED versions >most likely are significantly more expensive than incandescents, they >are big money savers in maintenance (getting someone up with a ladder to >change bulbs every once in a while ain't that cheap, especially in >places like Switzerland where there _is_ no dirt cheap labor) and >operating costs (power bills). The reduced power consumption of course >lends itself to being toutet as "greener" ;-) > >Regards, > Alex. >-- >"Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and > looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison ----- 17. [Computing] At Group L, Stoffel oversees six first-rate programmers, a managerial challenge roughly comparable to herding cats. --The Washington Post Magazine, June 9, 1985 --... ...-- -.. . -. ----. --.- --.- -... tpeters at nospam.mixcom.com (remove "nospam") N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) WEB: http://www.mixcom.com/tpeters 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W, Elevation 815', Grid Square EN53wc WAN/LAN/Telcom Analyst, Tech Writer, MCP, CCNA, Registered Linux User 385531 From rdawson16 at hotmail.com Mon Feb 22 19:14:30 2010 From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson) Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2010 19:14:30 -0600 Subject: OT: white LEDs (was: Re: Solderless breadboarding (and 68010 vs 68000)) In-Reply-To: <4B832609.6040303@dunnington.plus.com> References: <20100222203440.1a61f2d4.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>, , <4B826EBE.30314.C6538B@cclist.sydex.com>, , <20100222213545.GA28992@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>, <4B829063.19896.149BF87@cclist.sydex.com>, <4B832609.6040303@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: There was some interesting news on the LED traffic lights and the recent winter storms. Apparently they don't melt off the snow like the incandescents did. They are talking about putting heaters back in the lights. > Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2010 00:49:13 +0000 > From: pete at dunnington.plus.com > To: > Subject: Re: OT: white LEDs (was: Re: Solderless breadboarding (and 68010 vs 68000)) > > On 22/02/2010 22:10, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > On 22 Feb 2010 at 22:35, Alexander Schreiber wrote: > > > >> Although by now the LED light output in general is high enough that > >> they are used in traffic lights (a lot of the traffic lights around > >> here (Zurich) use LEDs). > > > > I see them in tailights for buses and trucks also. They have a > > somewhat different color (narrower spectral distribution) than > > filtered incandescent lamps. > > All the traffic lights here have been LEDs for several years. I also > see them in tail lights of cars and other vehicles. A few years ago, > the law for bicycle lights was changed to make LEDs legal (it used to > specify a certain wattage of 6V bulb, which now seems pretty silly given > the way intensity varies a lot with small voltage changes). > > -- > Pete Peter Turnbull > Network Manager > University of York _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail: Trusted email with powerful SPAM protection. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/196390707/direct/01/ From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Feb 22 19:21:10 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2010 17:21:10 -0800 (PST) Subject: OT: white LEDs (was: Re: Solderless breadboarding (and 68010 vs 68000)) In-Reply-To: References: <20100222203440.1a61f2d4.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>, , <4B826EBE.30314.C6538B@cclist.sydex.com>, , <20100222213545.GA28992@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>, <4B829063.19896.149BF87@cclist.sydex.com>, <4B832609.6040303@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <20100222171808.L5693@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 22 Feb 2010, Randy Dawson wrote: > Apparently they don't melt off the snow like the incandescents did. > They are talking about putting heaters back in the lights. It wouldn't take very much heat; there might be room to add an incandescent bulb into the housing to generate the needed heat. I understand that the incandescent bulbs that they have are available to be "repurposed" since they changed to LEDs. From curt at atarimuseum.com Mon Feb 22 19:49:47 2010 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2010 20:49:47 -0500 Subject: OT: white LEDs In-Reply-To: <20100223004038.GC28992@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> References: <20100222230100.58bd2570.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <4B8294B7.31018.15AA536@cclist.sydex.com> <4B830BAB.1000908@atarimuseum.com> <20100223004038.GC28992@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> Message-ID: <4B83343B.7090100@atarimuseum.com> That is true, they last longer and would save a heck of a lot of maintenance... I always thought like 10-15 years ago "when will they make traffic lights and street lights smart enough that when they fail, a signal is sent so that someone will come and fix them..." Today its usually when a traffic signal breaks and someone calls on their cell to 9-1-1 that there is a potential safety hazard, I would assume the electric co. drives around making inspections looking for dead street lights. I would think that with their new low power lights there would then come the eventual Wifi status transmitter that would send out a functional status of a light, traffic signal, etc that could all come into a center monitoring station and know when something fails. I was incorrect on the LED's as you pointed out, the more industrial type LED's are far more expensive. Curt Alexander Schreiber wrote: > On Mon, Feb 22, 2010 at 05:56:43PM -0500, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > >> Nice!!! Definitely should see those nationwide, its ashame they >> cost so much which I mean - they are LED's, they are a couple of cents >> each, its this all profit gouging on Green Products??? >> > > A couple of cents? Yeah, for the small low power (<< 1 W) ones you use > for indicators in electronics or christmas tree lights. The high power > stuff is still rather pricey. While I've no doubt that the manufacturers > are milking every cent of profit they can, those _aren't_ that cheap or > easy to produce, otherwise every semiconductor fablet in china would > make them by the barrel. > > Also, make no mistake, the "green" aspect takes a second (or third) seat > to more important aspects when deploying LED for things like traffic > signs and such. Especially for traffic sings, while the LED versions > most likely are significantly more expensive than incandescents, they > are big money savers in maintenance (getting someone up with a ladder to > change bulbs every once in a while ain't that cheap, especially in > places like Switzerland where there _is_ no dirt cheap labor) and > operating costs (power bills). The reduced power consumption of course > lends itself to being toutet as "greener" ;-) > > Regards, > Alex. > From useddec at gmail.com Mon Feb 22 19:59:34 2010 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2010 19:59:34 -0600 Subject: Looking for a VT100 advanced video option board In-Reply-To: References: <798073.29295.qm@web52604.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <624966d61002221759x5268ed58i2469fedc465656e7@mail.gmail.com> I have some AVO's and PPO's areund here somewhere. I' lll try to find them this week. Drop me a email off list if you need either. Paul On Sun, Feb 21, 2010 at 12:33 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > > Unfortunately, it's not an edge connector, it's a header type > > connector. A dual row of pins on the board, spaced at .100. So, imagine > > a SCSI ribbon connector, but spaced at .100 instead of .156. > > > Err, SCSI connectors (the ones you find on intenral drives, anyway) _are_ > 0.1" spacing > > -tony > From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Feb 22 21:00:59 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2010 22:00:59 -0500 Subject: OT: white LEDs (was: Re: Solderless breadboarding (and 68010 vs 68000)) In-Reply-To: <20100222213545.GA28992@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> References: <20100222203440.1a61f2d4.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <4B826EBE.30314.C6538B@cclist.sydex.com> <20100222213545.GA28992@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> Message-ID: On Feb 22, 2010, at 4:35 PM, Alexander Schreiber wrote: >>> White LEDs have become one of the most efficient light sources. >> >> Is that really true? I would have suspected that red LEDs would be >> far more efficient in terms of lumens-per-watt. The drawback being >> that they're monochromatic. > > What works in favour of the white LEDs is that everybody has been > working _real_ hard to get their output _way_ up. For the other > colors, > the pressure for more light isn't that intense. They're working just as hard for IR (in the form of laser diodes), and making great strides there as well. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From rdawson16 at hotmail.com Mon Feb 22 21:20:31 2010 From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson) Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2010 21:20:31 -0600 Subject: OT: white LEDs In-Reply-To: <4B83343B.7090100@atarimuseum.com> References: <20100222230100.58bd2570.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <4B8294B7.31018.15AA536@cclist.sydex.com> <4B830BAB.1000908@atarimuseum.com>, <20100223004038.GC28992@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>, <4B83343B.7090100@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: I think Luxeon still has the high mark in the industrial high power LED market. When these first came out, 6 years ago they were truly amazing, 1 amp LEDs! Integral thermal pad on the back for heatsinking. In the dark, you could hold a 35mm slide in front of one, 6" away and get a sharp bright image in the wall, as its almost a point source. If you look at one in the microscope, it looks like an LED with some sort of phosphor painted over the semiconductor. Is that how these things work, its really a high efficency IR LED, with a phosphor doubler to bring the wavelength into visible? Just speculating... I was using them in a ring light for a downhole well camera. Not that expensive, about $6 each. Randy > Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2010 20:49:47 -0500 > From: curt at atarimuseum.com > To: > Subject: Re: OT: white LEDs > > That is true, they last longer and would save a heck of a lot of > maintenance... I always thought like 10-15 years ago "when will they > make traffic lights and street lights smart enough that when they fail, > a signal is sent so that someone will come and fix them..." Today its > usually when a traffic signal breaks and someone calls on their cell to > 9-1-1 that there is a potential safety hazard, I would assume the > electric co. drives around making inspections looking for dead street > lights. I would think that with their new low power lights there > would then come the eventual Wifi status transmitter that would send out > a functional status of a light, traffic signal, etc that could all come > into a center monitoring station and know when something fails. > > I was incorrect on the LED's as you pointed out, the more industrial > type LED's are far more expensive. > > > Curt > > > > Alexander Schreiber wrote: > > On Mon, Feb 22, 2010 at 05:56:43PM -0500, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > > > >> Nice!!! Definitely should see those nationwide, its ashame they > >> cost so much which I mean - they are LED's, they are a couple of cents > >> each, its this all profit gouging on Green Products??? > >> > > > > A couple of cents? Yeah, for the small low power (<< 1 W) ones you use > > for indicators in electronics or christmas tree lights. The high power > > stuff is still rather pricey. While I've no doubt that the manufacturers > > are milking every cent of profit they can, those _aren't_ that cheap or > > easy to produce, otherwise every semiconductor fablet in china would > > make them by the barrel. > > > > Also, make no mistake, the "green" aspect takes a second (or third) seat > > to more important aspects when deploying LED for things like traffic > > signs and such. Especially for traffic sings, while the LED versions > > most likely are significantly more expensive than incandescents, they > > are big money savers in maintenance (getting someone up with a ladder to > > change bulbs every once in a while ain't that cheap, especially in > > places like Switzerland where there _is_ no dirt cheap labor) and > > operating costs (power bills). The reduced power consumption of course > > lends itself to being toutet as "greener" ;-) > > > > Regards, > > Alex. > > _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail: Free, trusted and rich email service. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/196390708/direct/01/ From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Feb 22 21:25:49 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2010 22:25:49 -0500 Subject: OT: white LEDs In-Reply-To: References: <20100222230100.58bd2570.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <4B8294B7.31018.15AA536@cclist.sydex.com> <4B830BAB.1000908@atarimuseum.com>, <20100223004038.GC28992@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>, <4B83343B.7090100@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <512F4B5B-942F-4252-80BC-6D216B354E70@neurotica.com> On Feb 22, 2010, at 10:20 PM, Randy Dawson wrote: > If you look at one in the microscope, it looks like an LED with > some sort of phosphor painted over the semiconductor. Is that how > these things work, its really a high efficency IR LED, with a > phosphor doubler to bring the wavelength into visible? Just > speculating... No, they're coated with a blend of phosphors designed to give "sorta" white light. The native LED underneath the phosphor coating is usually blue. Remember, if you double the narrow-band output of some common IR LED output, you'll get some narrow-band visible output...more or less a single visible color. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From nigel.d.williams at gmail.com Mon Feb 22 21:52:08 2010 From: nigel.d.williams at gmail.com (Nigel Williams) Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2010 14:52:08 +1100 Subject: DEC RT-11 MU BASIC V2.00R installation guide? In-Reply-To: <5f2019e51002152122w65c40070n1d1e65526351aac1@mail.gmail.com> References: <5f2019e51002152122w65c40070n1d1e65526351aac1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <5f2019e51002221952g40a396d2n97e56b2e18217f64@mail.gmail.com> Giorgio Ungarelli (http://ungarelli.net/) let me know that MU BASIC/RT-11 v2 will run on E11 (www.dbit.com), which I was able to confirm. MU BASIC continues to throw unexpected errors like "?DEVICE NOT ENABLED" but it seems to accept and run a small program. From nigel.d.williams at gmail.com Mon Feb 22 22:11:00 2010 From: nigel.d.williams at gmail.com (Nigel Williams) Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2010 15:11:00 +1100 Subject: seeking DEC digital mps - microprocessor series monitor/control panel Message-ID: <5f2019e51002222011u70bf091bxd4d28cf8d39d205a@mail.gmail.com> http://www.dvq.com/oldcomp/photos2/1k/dec_micro_panel.JPG I find this device quite fascinating (Intel 8008 plugged into a PDP-8 host), if anyone has one surplus I would be interested in negotiating. thanks. www.retroComputingTasmania.com From keithvz at verizon.net Mon Feb 22 22:17:04 2010 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith) Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2010 23:17:04 -0500 Subject: OT: white LEDs In-Reply-To: <4B83343B.7090100@atarimuseum.com> References: <20100222230100.58bd2570.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <4B8294B7.31018.15AA536@cclist.sydex.com> <4B830BAB.1000908@atarimuseum.com> <20100223004038.GC28992@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> <4B83343B.7090100@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <4B8356C0.6080107@verizon.net> Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > That is true, they last longer and would save a heck of a lot of > maintenance Right. Instead of a single bulb, there are many smaller LEDs, and the biggest benefit is that they all don't fail at the same time. This makes them much safer. I don't know what the MTBF is on those things but I've seen a couple burned out in some of the lights around here. >... I always thought like 10-15 years ago "when will they > make traffic lights and street lights smart enough that when they fail, > a signal is sent so that someone will come and fix them..." I used to talk to the technical people in charge of these types of projects in city/county/etc government. This isn't all that new, either. They've used RS422 and RS485 and run copper twisted pair between the lights, and then home run single mode fiber back to the centralized building. I got involved w/ them because they wanted to "network"-ify these old light controllers. The newer controllers are ethernet-based. I gave them a solution to transmit serial over tcp/ip, and then use small network switches that would use the legacy single mode. The advantage there was that they'd now have ethernet in these street-side boxes which made things like network-based cameras easy to connect. These switches had two single mode fiber ports (or multimode for shorter distances) and then around 6-8 copper 10/100 ports. What made them great for these types of projects is that they were industrial temperature rated. They were -50C to +100C rated, and designed for long term use at -40C to +75C. At the central location, they had big monitoring screens where they could see the status of every light, and have live video of the intersections. Pretty neat. > I would think that with their new low power lights there > would then come the eventual Wifi status transmitter that would send out > a functional status of a light, traffic signal, etc that could all come > into a center monitoring station and know when something fails. Yup. I designed some of these types of networks too! Especially nice when they already have some of municipality wide wifi installed. Keith From cclist at sydex.com Mon Feb 22 23:44:06 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2010 21:44:06 -0800 Subject: OT: white LEDs (was: Re: Solderless breadboarding (and 68010 vs 68000)) In-Reply-To: <20100222213545.GA28992@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> References: <20100222203440.1a61f2d4.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>, <4B826EBE.30314.C6538B@cclist.sydex.com>, <20100222213545.GA28992@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> Message-ID: <4B82FAA6.9079.2E8D389@cclist.sydex.com> Which are more efficient (without regard to luminous intensity)--LEDs or EL lamps? I remember an article during the 1960s in Popular Science about how someday, the walls of our rooms would be EL panels. I still have a few EL nightlights scattered around the house. --Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Feb 23 00:04:48 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2010 01:04:48 -0500 Subject: seeking DEC digital mps - microprocessor series monitor/control panel In-Reply-To: <5f2019e51002222011u70bf091bxd4d28cf8d39d205a@mail.gmail.com> References: <5f2019e51002222011u70bf091bxd4d28cf8d39d205a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <348C0662-2ED4-4276-964E-79BC9669C39B@neurotica.com> On Feb 22, 2010, at 11:11 PM, Nigel Williams wrote: > http://www.dvq.com/oldcomp/photos2/1k/dec_micro_panel.JPG > > I find this device quite fascinating (Intel 8008 plugged into a PDP-8 > host), if anyone has one surplus I would be interested in negotiating. Wow. WOW. You know...I've been doing PDPs for a very long time, and I didn't even know that thing existed. Do you know any more about it? -Dave > -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From nigel.d.williams at gmail.com Tue Feb 23 00:30:37 2010 From: nigel.d.williams at gmail.com (Nigel Williams) Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2010 17:30:37 +1100 Subject: seeking DEC digital mps - microprocessor series monitor/control panel In-Reply-To: <348C0662-2ED4-4276-964E-79BC9669C39B@neurotica.com> References: <5f2019e51002222011u70bf091bxd4d28cf8d39d205a@mail.gmail.com> <348C0662-2ED4-4276-964E-79BC9669C39B@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <5f2019e51002222230o4ababcag4cbc41f007e8ceb4@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Feb 23, 2010 at 5:04 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > ?Wow. > > ?WOW. > > ?You know...I've been doing PDPs for a very long time, and I didn't even > know that thing existed. ?Do you know any more about it? ... my reaction too, I was quite surprised. Bitsavers has the User Guide and engineering drawings: http://bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/mps/ But that is all I know; there was a comment about the panel only appearing on eBay about a year ago. From snhirsch at gmail.com Mon Feb 22 06:35:11 2010 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2010 07:35:11 -0500 (EST) Subject: FC5025 USB 5.25 floppy controller - first report In-Reply-To: <4B813FC2.26241.14A4D7E@cclist.sydex.com> References: <43474040DF76449DB2F81F294255F52F@obie>, <4B813FC2.26241.14A4D7E@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 21 Feb 2010, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 21 Feb 2010 at 10:01, Steven Hirsch wrote: > > >> Why would a Shugart 801 represent a different load than a 5.25" drive? >> Aren't they both 5V TTL level interfaces? > > Pullups on late 5.25" (e.g. 1.2MB) floppies as well as 3.5" drives > tend to be in the 2K range. Pullups on an 8" drive are almost always > 150 ohms. How much current can that microcontroller sink for > sustained periods? Hm. Never realized that. However, since the pullups are generally DIP resistor packs why not replace them with a higher value? > You might get away with it, but I wouldn't recommend it. Add to the > mix that 8" drive cables are usually much longer than 5.25" or 3.5" > cables (read: higher inductive load) and you have an "interesting" > cocktail. I never could make my CW MK 3 work reliably with 8" drives > until I constructed a buffer board. Even more interesting. I've noticed that my CW MKIV+ is "fussy" about the drives it works with. Now I have an explanation! Before going to the trouble of building buffers, I'm more inclined to use a higher value pullup and a shorter cable. Steve -- From jws at jwsss.com Mon Feb 22 06:44:30 2010 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2010 04:44:30 -0800 Subject: Tubes & Computers of Olden Days In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B827C2E.6060806@jwsss.com> John Bohne r has both a Univac-3 and an LGP 30 (and a half). Neither run right now, but were "decomissioned" and collected complete from the owners. Univac3 photos are linked to at end of this article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UNIVAC_III I'd rather not have my web site in the google crawl of this article, so apologize for the extra step. U3 has tube tape drives, but was a mix of transistor, and tubes. Jim On 2/17/2010 1:16 AM, Murray McCullough wrote: > Hi, > > Speaking of tubes, television variety or otherwise, does anyone know > if there are any tube-based computers, large or small, still in > existence? > I saw parts of one a few years ago at the Computer History Museum in > Silicon Valley but none that have approached a 'working' unit or > sub-unit! > > Murray-- > > > From rodsmallwood at btconnect.com Tue Feb 23 04:24:53 2010 From: rodsmallwood at btconnect.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2010 10:24:53 -0000 Subject: seeking DEC digital mps - microprocessor series monitor/controlpanel In-Reply-To: <348C0662-2ED4-4276-964E-79BC9669C39B@neurotica.com> References: <5f2019e51002222011u70bf091bxd4d28cf8d39d205a@mail.gmail.com> <348C0662-2ED4-4276-964E-79BC9669C39B@neurotica.com> Message-ID: I can confirm that this item was real and I played with one at DEC circa 1975. Very few were sold. Rod Smallwood Ex DEC -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dave McGuire Sent: 23 February 2010 06:05 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: seeking DEC digital mps - microprocessor series monitor/controlpanel On Feb 22, 2010, at 11:11 PM, Nigel Williams wrote: > http://www.dvq.com/oldcomp/photos2/1k/dec_micro_panel.JPG > > I find this device quite fascinating (Intel 8008 plugged into a PDP-8 > host), if anyone has one surplus I would be interested in negotiating. Wow. WOW. You know...I've been doing PDPs for a very long time, and I didn't even know that thing existed. Do you know any more about it? -Dave > -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From dkelvey at hotmail.com Tue Feb 23 08:11:15 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2010 06:11:15 -0800 Subject: OT: white LEDs (was: Re: Solderless breadboarding (and 68010 vs 68000)) In-Reply-To: <4B82FAA6.9079.2E8D389@cclist.sydex.com> References: <20100222203440.1a61f2d4.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>, , <4B826EBE.30314.C6538B@cclist.sydex.com>, , <20100222213545.GA28992@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>, <4B82FAA6.9079.2E8D389@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > From: cclist at sydex.com > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2010 21:44:06 -0800 > Subject: Re: OT: white LEDs (was: Re: Solderless breadboarding (and 68010 vs 68000)) > > Which are more efficient (without regard to luminous intensity)--LEDs > or EL lamps? I remember an article during the 1960s in Popular > Science about how someday, the walls of our rooms would be EL panels. > > I still have a few EL nightlights scattered around the house. > > --Chuck > > Hi My wife was always complaining about leaving lights on and such so when I got two EL night lights for the bathroom, it took a while to convince her that it would be OK to leave them on all the time. I forgot exactly what it figured out to but it was less then a dollar to run both of them for a year. That convinced her to just leave them in, all the time. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail: Trusted email with Microsoft?s powerful SPAM protection. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/201469226/direct/01/ From dkelvey at hotmail.com Tue Feb 23 08:53:09 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2010 06:53:09 -0800 Subject: Tubes & Computers of Olden Days In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: > From: roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk ----snip--- > > I think you were right, and I hope you will be again, but last thing I heard was there had been an incident and it was shut down awaiting a health and safety review. If my memory serves me right some twit reported the blown fuse had asbestos in it. I expect most of the steam boilers in the building do too. We've gone health and safety mad, but when I reported someone had fly tipped a load of asbestos on a country verge the council collected 75% of it and left the rest behind and now some of it has got driven over and is being pulverised into the mud. > > Roger Holmes, > Computer Conservation Society and 1301 working party member Hi While I don't deny that asbestos can be a health problem, I think that they have gone overboard in not understanding in what forms it is dangerous to be around. I know of two counter examples: 1. When they used to use asbestos in brake linings for cars, people that did brake repair showed no increase in asbestos caused deseases. 2. In California, there is a county, El Dorado I beleave, that has many exposed vains of natural asbestos and large amounts of asbestos dust in the soils. It also has little increase in asbestos related illness. What I'd like to know is what forms of asbestos are actually a hazard and what forms are not. I had a friend whos father owned a Bear Brake Service. In the evening, he'd come home covered in brake dust ( this was before asbestos was generally known to cause problems ). He lived to be over 80. I do wish they could find out exactly what it is that is the problem. We have so over reacted here. There are other materials almost as bad if not worse. Fine glass dust kills many that work in the lense and mirror making fields. They don't get canser but they are dead, just the same. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail: Trusted email with Microsoft?s powerful SPAM protection. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/201469226/direct/01/ From cclist at sydex.com Tue Feb 23 12:00:40 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2010 10:00:40 -0800 Subject: FC5025 USB 5.25 floppy controller - first report In-Reply-To: References: <43474040DF76449DB2F81F294255F52F@obie>, <4B813FC2.26241.14A4D7E@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4B83A748.19633.297864@cclist.sydex.com> On 22 Feb 2010 at 7:35, Steven Hirsch wrote: > Hm. Never realized that. However, since the pullups are generally > DIP resistor packs why not replace them with a higher value? Give it a try--it might work. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Tue Feb 23 12:12:24 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2010 10:12:24 -0800 Subject: Tubes & Computers of Olden Days In-Reply-To: References: , , Message-ID: <4B83AA08.11212.34374F@cclist.sydex.com> On 23 Feb 2010 at 6:53, dwight elvey wrote: > While I don't deny that asbestos can be a health problem, I think that > they have gone overboard in not understanding in what forms it is > dangerous to be around. > > I know of two counter examples: > > 1. When they used to use asbestos in brake linings for cars, people > that did brake repair showed no increase in asbestos caused deseases. > > 2. In California, there is a county, El Dorado I beleave, that has many > exposed vains of natural asbestos and large amounts of asbestos > dust in the soils. It also has little increase in asbestos related illness. I once saw a study that posited that the fiber size of the material had a strong influence on the causation of asbestosis and mesothelioma. In particular, imported asbestos seemed to have a higher rate of health issues. A friend grew up in Libby, Montana (vermiculite mining by W.R. Grace) and several members of her family suffer from asbestosis. So the danger is real. But the stuff was everywhere in the steel mills and I'm not aware of anyone in my own family (including me) who worked in the mills who contracted asbestosis. --Chuck From IanK at vulcan.com Tue Feb 23 12:21:41 2010 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2010 10:21:41 -0800 Subject: Tubes & Computers of Olden Days In-Reply-To: <4B83AA08.11212.34374F@cclist.sydex.com> References: , , <4B83AA08.11212.34374F@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chuck Guzis > Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 10:12 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: RE: Tubes & Computers of Olden Days > > On 23 Feb 2010 at 6:53, dwight elvey wrote: > > > While I don't deny that asbestos can be a health problem, I think > that > > they have gone overboard in not understanding in what forms it is > > dangerous to be around. > > > > I know of two counter examples: > > > > 1. When they used to use asbestos in brake linings for cars, people > > that did brake repair showed no increase in asbestos caused deseases. > > > > 2. In California, there is a county, El Dorado I beleave, that has > many > > exposed vains of natural asbestos and large amounts of asbestos > > dust in the soils. It also has little increase in asbestos related > illness. > > I once saw a study that posited that the fiber size of the material > had a strong influence on the causation of asbestosis and > mesothelioma. In particular, imported asbestos seemed to have a > higher rate of health issues. > > A friend grew up in Libby, Montana (vermiculite mining by W.R. Grace) > and several members of her family suffer from asbestosis. > > So the danger is real. > > But the stuff was everywhere in the steel mills and I'm not aware of > anyone in my own family (including me) who worked in the mills who > contracted asbestosis. > > --Chuck > My wife used to do asbestos monitoring for mitigation work, so I know a bit about this. The primary metric is the 'friability' of the asbestos - in other words, how likely it is to break into tiny pieces and embed itself in your lungs. As Chuck states, there are various forms of asbestos (which is a naturally occurring mineral), each with its own friability. Further, the manner in which the asbestos has been treated or formed into artifacts impacts its friability. Aging can be a factor, too: items that were perfectly safe when new may now be hazardous. It really is a case-by-case question when dealing with worked asbestos, i.e. in products. I agree that a simple knee-jerk reaction to asbestos is silly - but that's how legislators most often write laws. (Unless stakeholders are there to help them understand the facts.) -- Ian From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Tue Feb 23 12:53:51 2010 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2010 10:53:51 -0800 (PST) Subject: seeking DEC digital mps - microprocessor series monitor/controlpanel In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <920139.70433.qm@web80505.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I have two of the control panels for them MPS system and have been looking for a processor board for many years now. I have never seen one for sale. Might have to build one up myself. A very small system could be built with a CPU board and the control panel. The control panel has an EEPROM and static RAM that is used for program loads and the CPU board has a serial port, making for a complete system. Bob www.dvq.com --- On Tue, 2/23/10, Rod Smallwood wrote: From: Rod Smallwood Subject: RE: seeking DEC digital mps - microprocessor series monitor/controlpanel To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only'" Date: Tuesday, February 23, 2010, 2:24 AM I can confirm that this item was real and I played with one at DEC circa 1975. Very few were sold. Rod Smallwood Ex DEC -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dave McGuire Sent: 23 February 2010 06:05 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: seeking DEC digital mps - microprocessor series monitor/controlpanel On Feb 22, 2010, at 11:11 PM, Nigel Williams wrote: > http://www.dvq.com/oldcomp/photos2/1k/dec_micro_panel.JPG > > I find this device quite fascinating (Intel 8008 plugged into a PDP-8 > host), if anyone has one surplus I would be interested in negotiating. ???Wow. ???WOW. ???You know...I've been doing PDPs for a very long time, and I didn't? even know that thing existed.? Do you know any more about it? ? ? ? ? ? ???-Dave > -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From dkelvey at hotmail.com Tue Feb 23 13:16:25 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2010 11:16:25 -0800 Subject: Tubes & Computers of Olden Days In-Reply-To: References: , , , , , <4B83AA08.11212.34374F@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: > From: IanK at vulcan.com > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2010 10:21:41 -0800 > Subject: RE: Tubes & Computers of Olden Days > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chuck Guzis > > Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 10:12 AM > > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: RE: Tubes & Computers of Olden Days > > > > On 23 Feb 2010 at 6:53, dwight elvey wrote: > > > > > While I don't deny that asbestos can be a health problem, I think > > that > > > they have gone overboard in not understanding in what forms it is > > > dangerous to be around. > > > > > > I know of two counter examples: > > > > > > 1. When they used to use asbestos in brake linings for cars, people > > > that did brake repair showed no increase in asbestos caused deseases. > > > > > > 2. In California, there is a county, El Dorado I beleave, that has > > many > > > exposed vains of natural asbestos and large amounts of asbestos > > > dust in the soils. It also has little increase in asbestos related > > illness. > > > > I once saw a study that posited that the fiber size of the material > > had a strong influence on the causation of asbestosis and > > mesothelioma. In particular, imported asbestos seemed to have a > > higher rate of health issues. > > > > A friend grew up in Libby, Montana (vermiculite mining by W.R. Grace) > > and several members of her family suffer from asbestosis. > > > > So the danger is real. > > > > But the stuff was everywhere in the steel mills and I'm not aware of > > anyone in my own family (including me) who worked in the mills who > > contracted asbestosis. > > > > --Chuck > > > > My wife used to do asbestos monitoring for mitigation work, so I know a bit about this. The primary metric is the 'friability' of the asbestos - in other words, how likely it is to break into tiny pieces and embed itself in your lungs. As Chuck states, there are various forms of asbestos (which is a naturally occurring mineral), each with its own friability. Further, the manner in which the asbestos has been treated or formed into artifacts impacts its friability. Aging can be a factor, too: items that were perfectly safe when new may now be hazardous. It really is a case-by-case question when dealing with worked asbestos, i.e. in products. > > I agree that a simple knee-jerk reaction to asbestos is silly - but that's how legislators most often write laws. (Unless stakeholders are there to help them understand the facts.) -- Ian Hi It is interesting that some resent research I've seen seems to indicate the the danger goes up as the size of the particle goes down. In other words the tiniest particles are actually the most dangerous and also the hardest to filter out. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Your E-mail and More On-the-Go. Get Windows Live Hotmail Free. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/201469229/direct/01/ From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Feb 23 13:27:10 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2010 14:27:10 -0500 Subject: seeking DEC digital mps - microprocessor series monitor/controlpanel In-Reply-To: <920139.70433.qm@web80505.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <920139.70433.qm@web80505.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > I have two of the control panels for them MPS system and have been looking for a processor board for many years now. I have never seen one for sale. Might have to build one up myself. Were these the Y series yellow Flip Chips? RCA has had an oddball Ymumble card with a microprocessor (8008?) for years now, and I do not think we ever figured out what it is for. -- Will From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Feb 23 13:40:57 2010 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2010 11:40:57 -0800 Subject: seeking DEC digital mps - microprocessor series monitor/controlpanel In-Reply-To: References: <920139.70433.qm@web80505.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4B842F49.3030907@bitsavers.org> On 2/23/10 11:27 AM, William Donzelli wrote: > Were these the Y series yellow Flip Chips? nope, standard M-series M7341-7346 and M7328 panel is M7342 From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Feb 23 13:16:21 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2010 19:16:21 +0000 (GMT) Subject: FC5025 USB 5.25 floppy controller - first report In-Reply-To: from "Steven Hirsch" at Feb 22, 10 07:35:11 am Message-ID: > > Pullups on late 5.25" (e.g. 1.2MB) floppies as well as 3.5" drives > > tend to be in the 2K range. Pullups on an 8" drive are almost always > > 150 ohms. How much current can that microcontroller sink for > > sustained periods? > > Hm. Never realized that. However, since the pullups are generally DIP > resistor packs why not replace them with a higher value? Well, you could, but I wouldn't. The resistors are not only pull-ups, they also terminate the cable (regarded as a transmission line). I am a great beleiveer in properly terminated cables, reflections on said cables cause all sorts of 'interesting' problems. I suspect it would work with 1k pull-ups and a short cable, but constructing a buffer board is not going to take long (it's only 2 or 3 14 pin TTL chips), and it means it _will_ work. If you have problems with data corruption, etc, you then know it's not due to ringing on the cable. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Feb 23 13:27:18 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2010 19:27:18 +0000 (GMT) Subject: OT: white LEDs (was: Re: Solderless breadboarding (and 68010 vs In-Reply-To: <4B829063.19896.149BF87@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Feb 22, 10 02:10:43 pm Message-ID: > I see them in tailights for buses and trucks also. They have a > somewhat different color (narrower spectral distribution) than > filtered incandescent lamps. LED clusters are very common as lights on buses in London. In fact the first place I saw white LEDs being used was the reversing light of a bus. The turn indicators (cluster of yellow LEDs) have a curious property. When they turn off, one LED stays on for considerably (1s or so) longer than all the others. It's the same LED on all indicators, so it must be a design feature, but I wonder what the reason is. I've also seen al LED Belisha Beacon (this is a flashing yellow sphere on top of a pole, used to indicate the location of a pedestrian crossing in England). The LED verson had a non-illuminated yellow sphere with a vertical circle of yellow LEDs around it (a sort-of halo). I guess that since such things turn on and off all the time, the GLS bulbs used in the traditional type have a fairly short life. LEDs whould last a lot longer. [...] > However, to my eye, the biggest abomination are cheap Christmas tree > LED lights with very pronouced flicker. I haven't researched it, but > I suspect that the LEDs in such strings are hooked in series and used > to self-rectify the line current. I would hope not. The maximum revers voltage for most LEDs is quite low. What is more normal is to put a silicon diode in inverse parallel (and fit a suitable limiting resistor in sereis with the pair). This fo course means that LED flickers at mains frequency (rather than twice it as with normal bulbs) and when I was experimenting with my white LED strobe, I could certainly notice the flicker at 50Hz (and probably at 60Hz). > > I picked up a couple of strings last month at the local "dollar" > store--they're GE-branded. Come Christmas, I run them off of a nice > filtered DC supply--or at least a full-wave bridge. You mean you're not going to modify them to have individual control of the LEDs and them run them off a classic computer? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Feb 23 13:34:49 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2010 19:34:49 +0000 (GMT) Subject: OT: white LEDs In-Reply-To: from "Randy Dawson" at Feb 22, 10 09:20:31 pm Message-ID: > If you look at one in the microscope=2C it looks like an LED with some sort= > of phosphor painted over the semiconductor. Is that how these things work= > =2C its really a high efficency IR LED=2C with a phosphor doubler to bring = > the wavelength into visible? Just speculating... Most, if nto all white LEDs are actually a blue LED device coupled with a yellow phosphor. If you shine UV light sourve on one, it will glow yellow due to the phosphor. UV LEDs work well for this (yes, said pound shop had some UV LED torches (flashlights) at 2 for a pound, designed to be used to show up the fluorescent markings on banknotes to detect forgeries. I added one to my toolkit, it's very useful for detecting flourescent markings on all sorts of otehr things, for checking the colour of phosphor in display panels, and the like). > > I was using them in a ring light for a downhole well camera. Not that expe= > nsive=2C about $6 each. Has anyone ever tried them for flim photograhpy? THe data sheets I looked at showed a fairly continuous output spectrrum (unlike the pure colour LEDs, of course), which could presumably be filtered into something that looked like daylight to colour film. -tony From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Feb 23 14:15:58 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2010 15:15:58 -0500 Subject: OT: white LEDs (was: Re: Solderless breadboarding (and 68010 vs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Feb 23, 2010, at 2:27 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> I see them in tailights for buses and trucks also. They have a >> somewhat different color (narrower spectral distribution) than >> filtered incandescent lamps. > > LED clusters are very common as lights on buses in London. In fact the > first place I saw white LEDs being used was the reversing light of > a bus. > The turn indicators (cluster of yellow LEDs) have a curious property. > When they turn off, one LED stays on for considerably (1s or so) > longer > than all the others. It's the same LED on all indicators, so it > must be a > design feature, but I wonder what the reason is. I've heard lots of people talk about how disconcerting the abrupt turn-off of "those weird new traffic lights" is. I'll bet that has something to do with it. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mark.kahrs at gmail.com Tue Feb 23 12:06:50 2010 From: mark.kahrs at gmail.com (Mark Kahrs) Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2010 13:06:50 -0500 Subject: DWQVA? Message-ID: <67abbca31002231006j55a6cf99sba86121545039797@mail.gmail.com> Curiosity demands that I ask about the DWQVA. The module catalog(ue) lists it as "2 channel fiber optic interface (IFQ), Qbus to Stealth bus". What IS the stealth bus? No, I am not going to buy any of the ones on epay. From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Tue Feb 23 15:08:12 2010 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2010 22:08:12 +0100 Subject: OT: white LEDs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20100223220812.0bad0059.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Tue, 23 Feb 2010 19:34:49 +0000 (GMT) ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > Has anyone ever tried them for flim photograhpy? I saw white LEDs used as lighting for macro photography. Though with digital cameras. Most white LEDs are weak on the red side of the spectrum. Sometimes this gets mitigated by adding extra red LEDs. Cree uses this trick to get a CRI of 90 and more in its LED moduls. Check the CRI rating in the data sheet. (E.g. the Cree XP-G cool white is at 75.) -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From innfoclassics at gmail.com Tue Feb 23 15:15:44 2010 From: innfoclassics at gmail.com (Paxton Hoag) Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2010 13:15:44 -0800 Subject: OT: white LEDs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > Has anyone ever tried them for flim photograhpy? THe data sheets I looked > at showed a fairly continuous output spectrrum (unlike the pure colour > LEDs, of course), which could presumably be filtered into something that > looked like daylight to colour film. I have used a white LED to paint light in both digital and film photography successfully. I am using a blue white Photon Micro light to light macro photographic subjects in the field at night. I use a tripod to hold the camera still for a time exposure and light the item by moving the LED microlight all around. nice color, no shadows. Exposures run from a few seconds to about 60 seconds. I have been meaning to get several friends together and have them wave their micro lights in a group picture but have not done it yet, probably this summer. To keep it on topic this technique would be good to take shadowless photos of older electronic components and boards. Paxton Astoria, Oregon USA -- Paxton Hoag Astoria, OR USA From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Feb 23 13:13:32 2010 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2010 19:13:32 -0000 Subject: BBC S.E. news classic computer feature References: <650F1B7C-BB93-42C7-9220-1DE0D41FE45D@microspot.co.uk> Message-ID: <011901cab4ce$c074c060$44fdf93e@user8459cef6fa> No, but perhaps you could politely suggest to the BBC that they should put it up on YouTube. They already have a few channels on the site, and more TV channels/companies are uploading full programs (an hour or more long) to the site :) Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk ----- Original Message ----- From: "Roger Holmes" To: Sent: Monday, February 22, 2010 7:21 PM Subject: Re: BBC S.E. news classic computer feature On 21 Feb 2010, at 07:45, cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > > Message: 26 > Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 18:46:08 +0000 > From: Nigel Bailey > Subject: Re: BBC S.E. news classic computer feature > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > Message-ID: <4B7EDC70.7020407 at virgin.net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > Presumeably that's "Flossie" > I watched the local BBC news, but we're in the Anglia region. Did you > "youtube" the clip? I think the BBC would not like me putting their copyright programmes up on U-tube. From keithvz at verizon.net Tue Feb 23 15:29:29 2010 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith) Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2010 16:29:29 -0500 Subject: OT: white LEDs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B8448B9.7000705@verizon.net> Tony Duell wrote: > Has anyone ever tried them for flim[sic] photograhpy[sic]? THe data sheets I looked > at showed a fairly continuous output spectrrum[sic] (unlike the pure colour > LEDs, of course), which could presumably be filtered into something that > looked like daylight to colour film. As long as the output color temperature of the light is fairly consistent, it doesn't matter much if it skewed to one side or another. We shoot gray cards to achieve a neutral white balance. When you deal with mixed lighting scenarios inside a house, you're basically dealing w/ the same thing. You might have some filtered daylight through a window, some incandescent bulbs, and so on. Keith From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Feb 23 15:48:06 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2010 16:48:06 -0500 Subject: OT: white LEDs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <063E73DB-250A-41BD-9662-1EFD496538E3@neurotica.com> On Feb 23, 2010, at 4:15 PM, Paxton Hoag wrote: > I am using a blue white Photon Micro light to light macro photographic > subjects in the field at night. I use a tripod to hold the camera > still for a time exposure and light the item by moving the LED > microlight all around. nice color, no shadows. Exposures run from a > few seconds to about 60 seconds. > > I have been meaning to get several friends together and have them wave > their micro lights in a group picture but have not done it yet, > probably this summer. Photon lights are fantastic. I keep one in my pocket every day. I'd be lost without it! -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From emu at e-bbes.com Tue Feb 23 16:27:35 2010 From: emu at e-bbes.com (e.stiebler) Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2010 15:27:35 -0700 Subject: BNC to VGA Cable In-Reply-To: <4B5D0439.8010003@oldskool.org> References: <4B5C86C3.8090302@e-bbes.com> <4B5D0439.8010003@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <4B845657.2030403@e-bbes.com> Jim Leonard wrote: > On 1/24/2010 11:43 AM, e.stiebler wrote: >> Hi all, >> a source for a BNC to VGA cable ? >> (Yes, I have a soldering iron, but like to buy some ;-)) >> >> The other way around (VGA->BNC) is easy to get, but don't find any >> BNC->VGA(15 pin) > > Tried monoprice.com? Thanks for that one ! Three large orders later, I have pretty much all I need ! (I hope ;-) ) Cheers From cclist at sydex.com Tue Feb 23 16:47:13 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2010 14:47:13 -0800 Subject: BNC to VGA Cable In-Reply-To: <4B845657.2030403@e-bbes.com> References: <4B5C86C3.8090302@e-bbes.com>, <4B5D0439.8010003@oldskool.org>, <4B845657.2030403@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: <4B83EA71.29592.12FD3F7@cclist.sydex.com> On 23 Feb 2010 at 15:27, e.stiebler wrote: > Three large orders later, I have pretty much all I need ! > (I hope ;-) ) So, this is different from a conventional BNC->VGA cable with female- female "unions" installed on all of the BNCs? Still trying to understand this one; sorry for being dense. --Chuck From starbase89 at gmail.com Tue Feb 23 16:48:16 2010 From: starbase89 at gmail.com (Joe Giliberti) Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2010 17:48:16 -0500 Subject: IBM 3633 Optical Disk Drive Message-ID: <2b1f1f551002231448x1fec2856o4a5cc763d514b071@mail.gmail.com> I'm trying to find some info on the IBM 3633 Optical Disk Drive. I am selling things for infoage, and this is among the stuff. I have the drive, cable, MCA controller card, "IBM Binder Manual," and several blank disks. I haven't seen any sold on ebay. Joe From mtapley at swri.edu Tue Feb 23 17:51:01 2010 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2010 17:51:01 -0600 Subject: OT: white LEDs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 12:00 -0600 2/23/10, Randy wrote: >If you look at one in the microscope, it looks like an LED with some >sort of phosphor painted over the semiconductor. Is that how these >things work, its really a high efficency IR LED, with a phosphor >doubler to bring the wavelength into visible? Just speculating... There are a few crystals that can double frequency (halve wavelength, thereby *increasing* the energy per photon). I think these are used in laser ranging, to bring a powerful IR laser beam up into the visible so it'll transmit better through the atmosphere. I think no phosphors can do that. They can bring frequency *down* (ie absorb an ultraviolet photon, emit 2 visible or one visible and one IR or some combination). In fact, I don't recall ever hearing of a device that can do that with non-coherent light (well, as direct conversion). The problem is trying to gather 2 low-energy photons into a single high-energy photon. That turns out to be tough to do in general. There are phosphors that can be "pumped" by blue or UV light, then stimulated to re-emit visible light when IR photons hit them. (I think the Germans made IR goggles this way in WWII.) -- - Mark 210-379-4635 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Large Asteroids headed toward planets inhabited by beings that don't have technology adequate to stop them: Think of it as Evolution in Fast-Forward. From teoz at neo.rr.com Tue Feb 23 19:23:41 2010 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2010 20:23:41 -0500 Subject: IBM 3633 Optical Disk Drive References: <2b1f1f551002231448x1fec2856o4a5cc763d514b071@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <5C4E4C75510A4F169422B3D38CECA0D4@dell8300> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joe Giliberti" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 5:48 PM Subject: IBM 3633 Optical Disk Drive > I'm trying to find some info on the IBM 3633 Optical Disk Drive. I am > selling things for infoage, and this is among the stuff. I have the drive, > cable, MCA controller card, "IBM Binder Manual," and several blank disks. > I > haven't seen any sold on ebay. > > Joe I know IBM made a 3363 Optical WORM drive (I have 3 of them), what is a 3633? From cclist at sydex.com Tue Feb 23 19:33:27 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2010 17:33:27 -0800 Subject: OT: white LEDs (was: Re: Solderless breadboarding (and 68010 vs In-Reply-To: References: <4B829063.19896.149BF87@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Feb 22, 10 02:10:43 pm, Message-ID: <4B841167.21534.1C80219@cclist.sydex.com> On 23 Feb 2010 at 19:27, Tony Duell wrote: > > However, to my eye, the biggest abomination are cheap Christmas tree > > LED lights with very pronouced flicker. I haven't researched it, > > but I suspect that the LEDs in such strings are hooked in series and > > used to self-rectify the line current. > > I would hope not. The maximum revers voltage for most LEDs is quite > low. According to http://www.muanalysis.com/publications/Quantum-Wells-in-Seasonal- Department-Christmas-Lights-LED.pdf the 70-LED strings get by with a resistor only. The 100 LED strings appear to use a diode. Heaven forfend that a diode bridge be used for them--that could cost additional cents per string. There's some fellow on the web who's been making various line/mains- operated lights using only a resistor in series with a single LED. Weird--I would have at least paralleled the LED with another resistor. I'll try to find his web page, if anyone's interested. --Chuck From starbase89 at gmail.com Tue Feb 23 19:44:36 2010 From: starbase89 at gmail.com (Joe Giliberti) Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2010 20:44:36 -0500 Subject: IBM 3633 Optical Disk Drive In-Reply-To: <5C4E4C75510A4F169422B3D38CECA0D4@dell8300> References: <2b1f1f551002231448x1fec2856o4a5cc763d514b071@mail.gmail.com> <5C4E4C75510A4F169422B3D38CECA0D4@dell8300> Message-ID: <2b1f1f551002231744x75edc9a2r30b903cadae599fe@mail.gmail.com> Correction, 3363 Optical Drive On Tue, Feb 23, 2010 at 8:23 PM, Teo Zenios wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joe Giliberti" > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> > Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 5:48 PM > Subject: IBM 3633 Optical Disk Drive > > > > I'm trying to find some info on the IBM 3633 Optical Disk Drive. I am >> selling things for infoage, and this is among the stuff. I have the drive, >> cable, MCA controller card, "IBM Binder Manual," and several blank disks. >> I >> haven't seen any sold on ebay. >> >> Joe >> > > I know IBM made a 3363 Optical WORM drive (I have 3 of them), what is a > 3633? > > > From teoz at neo.rr.com Tue Feb 23 20:04:56 2010 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2010 21:04:56 -0500 Subject: IBM 3633 Optical Disk Drive References: <2b1f1f551002231448x1fec2856o4a5cc763d514b071@mail.gmail.com> <5C4E4C75510A4F169422B3D38CECA0D4@dell8300> <2b1f1f551002231744x75edc9a2r30b903cadae599fe@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joe Giliberti" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 8:44 PM Subject: Re: IBM 3633 Optical Disk Drive > Correction, 3363 Optical Drive > > On Tue, Feb 23, 2010 at 8:23 PM, Teo Zenios wrote: > >> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joe Giliberti" >> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" < >> cctalk at classiccmp.org> >> Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 5:48 PM >> Subject: IBM 3633 Optical Disk Drive >> >> >> >> I'm trying to find some info on the IBM 3633 Optical Disk Drive. I am >>> selling things for infoage, and this is among the stuff. I have the >>> drive, >>> cable, MCA controller card, "IBM Binder Manual," and several blank >>> disks. >>> I >>> haven't seen any sold on ebay. >>> >>> Joe >>> >> >> I know IBM made a 3363 Optical WORM drive (I have 3 of them), what is a >> 3633? >> What are you looking for, a price? Two of my units were free installed in Model 80 PS2 systems, the other was an external with the ISA card and a bunch of unused media also free from a guy in the ibm PS2 newsgroup. While I see media on sale on ebay, I don't recall the drives themselves. I would venture to guess they don't sell for more then $20, since they are WORM drives of low capacity and any system that can use them can also use an old SCSI CDRW drives. From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Tue Feb 23 20:14:41 2010 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2010 18:14:41 -0800 Subject: OT: white LEDs (was: Re: Solderless breadboarding (and 68010 vs References: <4B829063.19896.149BF87@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Feb 22, 10 02:10:43 pm, <4B841167.21534.1C80219@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4B848B8F.123929E1@cs.ubc.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote: > There's some fellow on the web who's been making various line/mains- > operated lights using only a resistor in series with a single LED. > Weird--I would have at least paralleled the LED with another > resistor. I'll try to find his web page, if anyone's interested. I have on occasion run single LEDs from line voltage by paralleling the LED with a diode, then putting the pair in series with a C and R. C is calculated to provide most of the voltage drop via capacitive reactance, a small R is still present to limit inrush current. The diode limits the reverse voltage and permits bidirectional current flow so the cap sees AC. Power consumption and heat dissipation are reduced compared to a solution using only R, and a power resistor is not needed. I haven't tested the circuit over many on/off cycles though, to find out whether perhaps the peak in-rush current reduces LED life. From evan at snarc.net Tue Feb 23 21:33:09 2010 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2010 22:33:09 -0500 Subject: Semi-OT: vintage videogames made into films Message-ID: <4B849DF5.4010708@snarc.net> http://videogames.yahoo.com/events/plugged-in/missile-command-movie-incoming/1390235 "Missile Command" may become a feature film. From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Feb 23 21:37:48 2010 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2010 19:37:48 -0800 Subject: Semi-OT: vintage videogames made into films In-Reply-To: <4B849DF5.4010708@snarc.net> References: <4B849DF5.4010708@snarc.net> Message-ID: At 10:33 PM -0500 2/23/10, Evan Koblentz wrote: >http://videogames.yahoo.com/events/plugged-in/missile-command-movie-incoming/1390235 > >"Missile Command" may become a feature film. Say it isn't so. My wife swears all these idiots can do is rip of 80's culture, and that no one is making original movies. I'm starting to think she's right. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Feb 23 21:45:55 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2010 22:45:55 -0500 Subject: Semi-OT: vintage videogames made into films In-Reply-To: References: <4B849DF5.4010708@snarc.net> Message-ID: <4B163742-3C91-4B61-9423-E51E0FCD0B1E@neurotica.com> On Feb 23, 2010, at 10:37 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: >> http://videogames.yahoo.com/events/plugged-in/missile-command- >> movie-incoming/1390235 >> >> "Missile Command" may become a feature film. > > Say it isn't so. My wife swears all these idiots can do is rip of > 80's culture, and that no one is making original movies. I'm > starting to think she's right. I am SO psyched that they've made a real live-action movie out of Star Blazers, even if it will all be in Japanese. My best friend and I used to get out of school (7th-8th grade) at a dead run to get back to my place to watch it every day. Ahh, the memories! -Dave > -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From bryan.pope at comcast.net Tue Feb 23 21:45:48 2010 From: bryan.pope at comcast.net (Bryan Pope) Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2010 22:45:48 -0500 Subject: Semi-OT: vintage videogames made into films In-Reply-To: <4B849DF5.4010708@snarc.net> References: <4B849DF5.4010708@snarc.net> Message-ID: <4B84A0EC.3090109@comcast.net> On 2/23/2010 10:33 PM, Evan Koblentz wrote: > http://videogames.yahoo.com/events/plugged-in/missile-command-movie-incoming/1390235 > > > "Missile Command" may become a feature film. There is already the Pong movie: http://www.stickpage.com/pongnotjustagameplay.shtml ;-) Cheers, Bryan From teoz at neo.rr.com Tue Feb 23 22:06:23 2010 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2010 23:06:23 -0500 Subject: Semi-OT: vintage videogames made into films References: <4B849DF5.4010708@snarc.net> Message-ID: <0C98B647F6FE42A1A207A1AB84FE1B40@dell8300> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Zane H. Healy" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" ; Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 10:37 PM Subject: Re: Semi-OT: vintage videogames made into films > At 10:33 PM -0500 2/23/10, Evan Koblentz wrote: >>http://videogames.yahoo.com/events/plugged-in/missile-command-movie-incoming/1390235 >> >>"Missile Command" may become a feature film. > > Say it isn't so. My wife swears all these idiots can do is rip of 80's > culture, and that no one is making original movies. I'm starting to think > she's right. > > Zane > Movies and clothing are the same way, wait 20 years until people forget about the old stuff and then redo it. Wing commander was a good concept for a movie, there was some plot involved, but missile command? Making movies from video games rarely works out, same for most movies turned into video games (except DUNE 2). From ken at seefried.com Tue Feb 23 23:18:56 2010 From: ken at seefried.com (Ken Seefried) Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2010 05:18:56 +0000 Subject: Asbestos: (was: RE: Tubes & Computers of Olden Days) Message-ID: Dad was an executive and principle engineer at a hazardous waste abatement firm. Lots of asbestos and superfund site cleanups. I got a lot of collateral knowledge. From: Ian King >The primary metric is the 'friability' of the asbestosPrecisely. Not all asbestos is created equal; much is completely harmless, some is frighteningly damaging. Friability is a fancy way of saying how finely do the asbestos fiber shatter under stress. The finer the particles, the more dangerous. >I agree that a simple knee-jerk reaction to asbestos is >silly - but that's how legislators most often write laws. Well...not exactly (IMO). The legislation followed the trial lawyers making "asbestos" the equivalent of "plutonium" or "cyanide" in the minds of the public and therefore the jury pool. It's really tough to convince a jury that this asbestos is potentially lethal, but that form is harmless, especially when platiff is coughing his lungs up in the corner. P.S. - I am *not* saying there wasn't a cavalier attitude toward the stuff, and a lot of people were hurt without cause. >(Unless stakeholders are there to help them understand >the facts.)If you're refering to the legislators, the the stockholders are lobbyists, and you don't always get the desired outcome. KJ From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Feb 23 23:34:26 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2010 00:34:26 -0500 Subject: OT: white LEDs (was: Re: Solderless breadboarding (and 68010 vs In-Reply-To: <4B848B8F.123929E1@cs.ubc.ca> References: <4B829063.19896.149BF87@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Feb 22, 10 02:10:43 pm, <4B841167.21534.1C80219@cclist.sydex.com> <4B848B8F.123929E1@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <6F36666C-1FB9-4B04-AF62-B5325F2A59FD@neurotica.com> On Feb 23, 2010, at 9:14 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: >> There's some fellow on the web who's been making various line/mains- >> operated lights using only a resistor in series with a single LED. >> Weird--I would have at least paralleled the LED with another >> resistor. I'll try to find his web page, if anyone's interested. > > I have on occasion run single LEDs from line voltage by paralleling > the LED > with a diode, then putting the pair in series with a C and R. C is > calculated > to provide most of the voltage drop via capacitive reactance, a > small R is > still present to limit inrush current. The diode limits the reverse > voltage and > permits bidirectional current flow so the cap sees AC. > > Power consumption and heat dissipation are reduced compared to a > solution using > only R, and a power resistor is not needed. > I haven't tested the circuit over many on/off cycles though, to > find out > whether perhaps the peak in-rush current reduces LED life. Wow...that's pretty impressive work! Elegant in its simplicity. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Feb 23 23:33:26 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2010 00:33:26 -0500 Subject: OT: white LEDs (was: Re: Solderless breadboarding (and 68010 vs In-Reply-To: <4B841167.21534.1C80219@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4B829063.19896.149BF87@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Feb 22, 10 02:10:43 pm, <4B841167.21534.1C80219@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <916F714F-9932-41FD-AFED-41C2745BC9DC@neurotica.com> On Feb 23, 2010, at 8:33 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >>> However, to my eye, the biggest abomination are cheap Christmas tree >>> LED lights with very pronouced flicker. I haven't researched it, >>> but I suspect that the LEDs in such strings are hooked in series and >>> used to self-rectify the line current. >> >> I would hope not. The maximum revers voltage for most LEDs is quite >> low. > > According to > > http://www.muanalysis.com/publications/Quantum-Wells-in-Seasonal- > Department-Christmas-Lights-LED.pdf > > the 70-LED strings get by with a resistor only. The 100 LED strings > appear to use a diode. Heaven forfend that a diode bridge be used > for them--that could cost additional cents per string. > > There's some fellow on the web who's been making various line/mains- > operated lights using only a resistor in series with a single LED. > Weird--I would have at least paralleled the LED with another > resistor. I'll try to find his web page, if anyone's interested. There was an article many years ago, in CCI I think, about running PIC microcontrollers from line voltage through a very large resistor. Scary stuff. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From julian at twinax.org Tue Feb 23 23:36:41 2010 From: julian at twinax.org (Julian Wolfe) Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2010 23:36:41 -0600 Subject: Anyone in Houston, TX? Message-ID: <000301cab513$58c82c00$0a588400$@org> Hi all, Just moved to the Houston area, wondering if there are any classiccmp'ers down here. I'm up in Spring. From pontus at update.uu.se Tue Feb 23 23:45:35 2010 From: pontus at update.uu.se (Pontus) Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2010 06:45:35 +0100 Subject: seeking DEC digital mps - microprocessor series monitor/control panel In-Reply-To: <348C0662-2ED4-4276-964E-79BC9669C39B@neurotica.com> References: <5f2019e51002222011u70bf091bxd4d28cf8d39d205a@mail.gmail.com> <348C0662-2ED4-4276-964E-79BC9669C39B@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4B84BCFF.5050008@update.uu.se> Dave McGuire wrote: > On Feb 22, 2010, at 11:11 PM, Nigel Williams wrote: >> http://www.dvq.com/oldcomp/photos2/1k/dec_micro_panel.JPG >> >> I find this device quite fascinating (Intel 8008 plugged into a PDP-8 >> host), if anyone has one surplus I would be interested in negotiating. > > Wow. > > WOW. > > You know...I've been doing PDPs for a very long time, and I didn't > even know that thing existed. Do you know any more about it? > > -Dave >> > > Some might remember a big sale of a PDP-8/e from sweden: http://www.neab.net/pdp-8e/ It also included the sale of a MPS Rom programmer, the link has pictures. I have the Microprocessors Users Handbook(it is also on bitsavers) which came with my PDP-8/e. Unfortunately no MPS :( /P From cclist at sydex.com Wed Feb 24 00:07:31 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2010 22:07:31 -0800 Subject: OT: white LEDs (was: Re: Solderless breadboarding (and 68010 vs In-Reply-To: <6F36666C-1FB9-4B04-AF62-B5325F2A59FD@neurotica.com> References: <4B829063.19896.149BF87@cclist.sydex.com>, <4B848B8F.123929E1@cs.ubc.ca>, <6F36666C-1FB9-4B04-AF62-B5325F2A59FD@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4B8451A3.17495.319627@cclist.sydex.com> On 24 Feb 2010 at 0:34, Dave McGuire wrote: > > Power consumption and heat dissipation are reduced compared to a > > solution using only R, and a power resistor is not needed. I haven't > > tested the circuit over many on/off cycles though, to find out > > whether perhaps the peak in-rush current reduces LED life. > > > Wow...that's pretty impressive work! Elegant in its simplicity. I remember a code-practice oscillator circuit that was line-powered a long time ago. It used a 6SL7 twin triode, with one section operating as a rectifier and the other, as the oscillator. The curious thing was that the filament of the 6SL7 was powered off of line voltage connected through a 1 uF non-polarized oil-paper capacitor. I actually built one--it worked just fine, particularly if you took care to ensure that the chassis wasn't live. It may have come out of an old receiving tube manual or ARRL handbook; I don't recall--and I hope I have the details correct. Someone will doubtless turn up that it used a 6SQ7 or 6X8 or some such variation. --Chuck From IanK at vulcan.com Wed Feb 24 00:28:15 2010 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2010 22:28:15 -0800 Subject: WAY OT RE: Asbestos: (was: RE: Tubes & Computers of Olden Days) Message-ID: Trial lawyers are part of making case law. Legislators make statutory law. Case law is *usually* very narrowly targeted. Statutory law tends to be where you find the overbroad, overreaching and uninformed regulation of how we live our lives and do our business. Stakeholders are... us. I'm part of an advocacy group for a particular area of interest that has been very effective in our efforts to educate our legislators regarding our issues. We've been able to get good legislation introduced, heard and passed, and bad legislation killed. Next week, I am meeting (by invitation) with the head of one of the state regulatory agencies that impacts my interest area. She wants to know what I think. I know because she's asked before, and evidently included my input (on behalf of the stakeholder community) in her decision process. If you include in the concept of 'lobbyists' citizens who show up, unpaid, and speak to the issues with data, not just impassioned rhetoric (although we have some of that, too), then you are not incorrect. But I suspect you are repeating the oft-stated belief that only paid, high-powered lobbyists are really making a difference. My small, not-for-profit advocacy group has beat those people at their own game on more than one occasion. I don't get paid for the time I spend in the state capital, and I pay my own way when I visit D.C. I'm paid back when stupid things don't happen, and even more richly when good things DO happen. In my experience, at least at the state level, they're listening to the people who are talking: the decisions are made by the people who show up. Yes, sometimes the dragon wins, but in my experience the dragon loses often enough to well-informed and passionate citizen stakeholders that I keep going back. -- Ian ________________________________________ From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Ken Seefried [ken at seefried.com] Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 9:18 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Asbestos: (was: RE: Tubes & Computers of Olden Days) Dad was an executive and principle engineer at a hazardous waste abatement firm. Lots of asbestos and superfund site cleanups. I got a lot of collateral knowledge. From: Ian King >The primary metric is the 'friability' of the asbestosPrecisely. Not all asbestos is created equal; much is completely harmless, some is frighteningly damaging. Friability is a fancy way of saying how finely do the asbestos fiber shatter under stress. The finer the particles, the more dangerous. >I agree that a simple knee-jerk reaction to asbestos is >silly - but that's how legislators most often write laws. Well...not exactly (IMO). The legislation followed the trial lawyers making "asbestos" the equivalent of "plutonium" or "cyanide" in the minds of the public and therefore the jury pool. It's really tough to convince a jury that this asbestos is potentially lethal, but that form is harmless, especially when platiff is coughing his lungs up in the corner. P.S. - I am *not* saying there wasn't a cavalier attitude toward the stuff, and a lot of people were hurt without cause. >(Unless stakeholders are there to help them understand >the facts.)If you're refering to the legislators, the the stockholders are lobbyists, and you don't always get the desired outcome. KJ From geoffr at zipcon.net Wed Feb 24 00:36:38 2010 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoffrey Reed) Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2010 22:36:38 -0800 Subject: Semi-OT: vintage videogames made into films In-Reply-To: <4B163742-3C91-4B61-9423-E51E0FCD0B1E@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On 2/23/10 7:45 PM, "Dave McGuire" wrote: > On Feb 23, 2010, at 10:37 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: >>> http://videogames.yahoo.com/events/plugged-in/missile-command- >>> movie-incoming/1390235 >>> >>> "Missile Command" may become a feature film. >> >> Say it isn't so. My wife swears all these idiots can do is rip of >> 80's culture, and that no one is making original movies. I'm >> starting to think she's right. > > I am SO psyched that they've made a real live-action movie out of > Star Blazers, even if it will all be in Japanese. My best friend and > I used to get out of school (7th-8th grade) at a dead run to get back > to my place to watch it every day. Ahh, the memories! > > -Dave >> > Do you mean Space Cruiser Yamato? :D From snhirsch at gmail.com Tue Feb 23 17:13:44 2010 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2010 18:13:44 -0500 (EST) Subject: FC5025 USB 5.25 floppy controller - first report In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 23 Feb 2010, Tony Duell wrote: >>> Pullups on late 5.25" (e.g. 1.2MB) floppies as well as 3.5" drives >>> tend to be in the 2K range. Pullups on an 8" drive are almost always >>> 150 ohms. How much current can that microcontroller sink for >>> sustained periods? >> >> Hm. Never realized that. However, since the pullups are generally DIP >> resistor packs why not replace them with a higher value? > > Well, you could, but I wouldn't. The resistors are not only pull-ups, > they also terminate the cable (regarded as a transmission line). I am a > great beleiveer in properly terminated cables, reflections on said cables > cause all sorts of 'interesting' problems. > > I suspect it would work with 1k pull-ups and a short cable, but > constructing a buffer board is not going to take long (it's only 2 or 3 > 14 pin TTL chips), and it means it _will_ work. If you have problems with > data corruption, etc, you then know it's not due to ringing on the cable. Fair enough :-). The TTL chips of which you speak are bidi bus transceivers, correct? Would you use the R/W line to switch directions, or is there other magic involved? Any construction tips? (Schematic would be nice - but hand-waving works, too!) Steve -- From bear at typewritten.org Wed Feb 24 02:22:27 2010 From: bear at typewritten.org (r.stricklin) Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2010 00:22:27 -0800 Subject: IBM 3633 Optical Disk Drive In-Reply-To: <2b1f1f551002231744x75edc9a2r30b903cadae599fe@mail.gmail.com> References: <2b1f1f551002231448x1fec2856o4a5cc763d514b071@mail.gmail.com> <5C4E4C75510A4F169422B3D38CECA0D4@dell8300> <2b1f1f551002231744x75edc9a2r30b903cadae599fe@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: While we're on the subject of the 3363, I should just chime in to mention I've been searching for an MCA controller for my drive for a little while. If anybody's got one to spare, please drop me a line off- list. Thanks! (shame on me for top-posting) ok bear On Feb 23, 2010, at 5:44 PM, Joe Giliberti wrote: > Correction, 3363 Optical Drive > > On Tue, Feb 23, 2010 at 8:23 PM, Teo Zenios wrote: > >> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joe Giliberti" > > >> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" < >> cctalk at classiccmp.org> >> Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 5:48 PM >> Subject: IBM 3633 Optical Disk Drive >> >> >> >> I'm trying to find some info on the IBM 3633 Optical Disk Drive. I am >>> selling things for infoage, and this is among the stuff. I have >>> the drive, >>> cable, MCA controller card, "IBM Binder Manual," and several blank >>> disks. >>> I >>> haven't seen any sold on ebay. >>> >>> Joe >>> >> >> I know IBM made a 3363 Optical WORM drive (I have 3 of them), what >> is a >> 3633? >> >> >> > From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Wed Feb 24 02:30:42 2010 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2010 00:30:42 -0800 Subject: OT: white LEDs (was: Re: Solderless breadboarding (and 68010 vs References: <4B829063.19896.149BF87@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Feb 22, 10 02:10:43 pm, <4B841167.21534.1C80219@cclist.sydex.com> <4B848B8F.123929E1@cs.ubc.ca> <6F36666C-1FB9-4B04-AF62-B5325F2A59FD@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4B84E3B3.1BF5415D@cs.ubc.ca> Dave McGuire wrote: > On Feb 23, 2010, at 9:14 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > > > > I have on occasion run single LEDs from line voltage by paralleling > > the LED > > with a diode, then putting the pair in series with a C and R. C is > > calculated > > to provide most of the voltage drop via capacitive reactance, a > > small R is > > still present to limit inrush current. The diode limits the reverse > > voltage and > > permits bidirectional current flow so the cap sees AC. > > > > Power consumption and heat dissipation are reduced compared to a > > solution using > > only R, and a power resistor is not needed. > > I haven't tested the circuit over many on/off cycles though, to > > find out > > whether perhaps the peak in-rush current reduces LED life. > > Wow...that's pretty impressive work! Elegant in its simplicity. I just looked up my old notes and tried it again: - two LEDs in reverse parallel, or LED and diode - C = 0.22 uF, 200V - R ~= 680 to 1K, 1/4W This targets around 10mA at 120VAC. ~0.2W consumption. Far more efficient than the straight R solution which consumes around 1.2W, and hence 2W resistor. Being pedantic, the power company might not like it as it adds reactive (out-of-phase, power factor) current to the grid. On the other hand, they might like it as it is capacitive reactance which helps counteract all the inductive reactance from all those little unloaded wall-warts and transformers people plug in. I think I've seen such a circuit used in manufactured equipment too, but I can't remember what. From steve at cosam.org Wed Feb 24 03:57:20 2010 From: steve at cosam.org (Steve Maddison) Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2010 10:57:20 +0100 Subject: DWQVA? In-Reply-To: <67abbca31002231006j55a6cf99sba86121545039797@mail.gmail.com> References: <67abbca31002231006j55a6cf99sba86121545039797@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Mark Kahrs wrote: > Curiosity demands that I ask about the DWQVA. ?The module catalog(ue) > lists it as "2 channel fiber optic interface (IFQ), Qbus to ?Stealth > bus". ?What IS the stealth bus? Pretty much like a regular bus, but with the wheel arches covered over, black, angular body panels to deflect radar and a modified exhaust to reduce its infrared signature. Or maybe you mean this: http://www.freepatentsonline.com/5568615.html Cheers, -- Steve Maddison http://www.cosam.org/ From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Feb 24 08:20:19 2010 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2010 06:20:19 -0800 (PST) Subject: Semi-OT: vintage videogames made into films In-Reply-To: <4B163742-3C91-4B61-9423-E51E0FCD0B1E@neurotica.com> References: <4B849DF5.4010708@snarc.net> <4B163742-3C91-4B61-9423-E51E0FCD0B1E@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 23 Feb 2010, Dave McGuire wrote: > > I am SO psyched that they've made a real live-action movie out of Star > Blazers, even if it will all be in Japanese. My best friend and I used to > get out of school (7th-8th grade) at a dead run to get back to my place to > watch it every day. Ahh, the memories! > I'm right there with ya Dave. I've lusted after a model of the Yamato for years. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From dkelvey at hotmail.com Wed Feb 24 08:35:58 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2010 06:35:58 -0800 Subject: OT: white LEDs (was: Re: Solderless breadboarding (and 68010 vs In-Reply-To: <4B848B8F.123929E1@cs.ubc.ca> References: <4B829063.19896.149BF87@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at,Feb 22, 10 02:10:43 pm,, <4B841167.21534.1C80219@cclist.sydex.com>, <4B848B8F.123929E1@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: > Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2010 18:14:41 -0800 > From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca > To: General at invalid.domain > Subject: Re: OT: white LEDs (was: Re: Solderless breadboarding (and 68010 vs > > Chuck Guzis wrote: > > > There's some fellow on the web who's been making various line/mains- > > operated lights using only a resistor in series with a single LED. > > Weird--I would have at least paralleled the LED with another > > resistor. I'll try to find his web page, if anyone's interested. > > I have on occasion run single LEDs from line voltage by paralleling the LED > with a diode, then putting the pair in series with a C and R. C is calculated > to provide most of the voltage drop via capacitive reactance, a small R is > still present to limit inrush current. The diode limits the reverse voltage and > permits bidirectional current flow so the cap sees AC. > > Power consumption and heat dissipation are reduced compared to a solution using > only R, and a power resistor is not needed. > I haven't tested the circuit over many on/off cycles though, to find out > whether perhaps the peak in-rush current reduces LED life. Hi The diode across the LED serves two purposes. There is that that you mentioned about the capacitor and the other is to keep the LED from burning up. When the voltage reverses on the LED, it is back biased. The LED zeners at about 10 to 12 volts someplace with almost the same current as it had when forward biased. A simple I*E calculations shows that in this mode it is using about 10 time the power as forward biased. When I first did this I forgot the diode and noticed that the LED was glowing orange. Checking with my finger confirmed that it was quite hot. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail: Powerful Free email with security by Microsoft. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/201469230/direct/01/ From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Feb 24 09:05:15 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2010 10:05:15 -0500 Subject: Semi-OT: vintage videogames made into films In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <247D5B19-9211-4672-9DF3-BDC5380FAABC@neurotica.com> On Feb 24, 2010, at 1:36 AM, Geoffrey Reed wrote: >>>> http://videogames.yahoo.com/events/plugged-in/missile-command- >>>> movie-incoming/1390235 >>>> >>>> "Missile Command" may become a feature film. >>> >>> Say it isn't so. My wife swears all these idiots can do is rip of >>> 80's culture, and that no one is making original movies. I'm >>> starting to think she's right. >> >> I am SO psyched that they've made a real live-action movie out of >> Star Blazers, even if it will all be in Japanese. My best friend and >> I used to get out of school (7th-8th grade) at a dead run to get back >> to my place to watch it every day. Ahh, the memories! > > Do you mean Space Cruiser Yamato? :D "Space Battleship Yamato". I am PSYCHED!! 8-D -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Feb 24 09:09:44 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2010 10:09:44 -0500 Subject: Semi-OT: vintage videogames made into films In-Reply-To: References: <4B849DF5.4010708@snarc.net> <4B163742-3C91-4B61-9423-E51E0FCD0B1E@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <7F07B4EA-6D30-4BBB-A1A2-DF175138A3D7@neurotica.com> On Feb 24, 2010, at 9:20 AM, Gene Buckle wrote: >> I am SO psyched that they've made a real live-action movie out of >> Star Blazers, even if it will all be in Japanese. My best friend >> and I used to get out of school (7th-8th grade) at a dead run to >> get back to my place to watch it every day. Ahh, the memories! >> > I'm right there with ya Dave. I've lusted after a model of the > Yamato for years. :) :-) -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From binarydinosaurs at gmail.com Wed Feb 24 09:39:57 2010 From: binarydinosaurs at gmail.com (Adrian Graham) Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2010 15:39:57 +0000 Subject: DEC H777 PSU Message-ID: <53e388f21002240739v4ecf2417wed99871f4fa8d595@mail.gmail.com> Folks, Got a PDP 11/04 on the bench here at work with an H777 (54-11599) PSU in with a sticker on it that says 'pop, bang & smoke'. I've downloaded the maintenance printset from Manx (yay Manx) but before I even begin I've noticed a terminal block on the transformer that indicates a jumper between terminals 1&2 and 3&4 for 115V and an additional jumper between 2&3 for 230V. This third jumper is missing so have the owners of this PDP just put 230V across a PSU jumpered for 115V? Thanks! -- Adrian www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk From cclist at sydex.com Wed Feb 24 09:53:24 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2010 07:53:24 -0800 Subject: FC5025 USB 5.25 floppy controller - first report In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: <4B84DAF4.26205.A273E@cclist.sydex.com> On 23 Feb 2010 at 18:13, Steven Hirsch wrote: > Fair enough :-). The TTL chips of which you speak are bidi bus > transceivers, correct? Would you use the R/W line to switch > directions, or is there other magic involved? > > Any construction tips? (Schematic would be nice - but hand-waving > works, too!) Not even that complicated. What Tony and I have been talking about are bog-plain 7407 open-collector non-inverting buffer chips. The floppy bus (if it can be called that) is unidirectional. So, basically, for controller outputs, you feed said output into a 7407, adding a small pullup (2K2 should be fine) and run the output of the 7407 to your floppies. Inputs to the controller reverse this and use a 150 ohm pullup on the input to the 7407 from the floppy, with the output feeding the controller (which should have its own pullup, so none required on your part). Add power and decoupling caps and you've got the design. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Wed Feb 24 09:54:55 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2010 07:54:55 -0800 Subject: OT: white LEDs (was: Re: Solderless breadboarding (and 68010 vs In-Reply-To: <4B84E3B3.1BF5415D@cs.ubc.ca> References: <4B829063.19896.149BF87@cclist.sydex.com>, <4B84E3B3.1BF5415D@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <4B84DB4F.3659.B8B23@cclist.sydex.com> On 24 Feb 2010 at 0:30, Brent Hilpert wrote: > I think I've seen such a circuit used in manufactured equipment too, > but I can't remember what. I believe that most LED "night lights" use a similar scheme. --Chuck From binarydinosaurs at gmail.com Wed Feb 24 10:30:22 2010 From: binarydinosaurs at gmail.com (Adrian Graham) Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2010 16:30:22 +0000 Subject: forget it - DEC H777 PSU Message-ID: <53e388f21002240830n21e968e9r3687712e54cba701@mail.gmail.com> Forget the 230V bang issue, it IS a 115v PSU from an industrial site! Now we just have to find out what's gone pop... ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Adrian Graham Date: 24 February 2010 15:39 Subject: DEC H777 PSU To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" < cctalk at classiccmp.org> Folks, Got a PDP 11/04 on the bench here at work with an H777 (54-11599) PSU in with a sticker on it that says 'pop, bang & smoke'. I've downloaded the maintenance printset from Manx (yay Manx) but before I even begin I've noticed a terminal block on the transformer that indicates a jumper between terminals 1&2 and 3&4 for 115V and an additional jumper between 2&3 for 230V. This third jumper is missing so have the owners of this PDP just put 230V across a PSU jumpered for 115V? Thanks! -- Adrian www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk -- -- adrian/witchy Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest home computer collection? www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk From emu at e-bbes.com Wed Feb 24 10:40:37 2010 From: emu at e-bbes.com (e.stiebler) Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2010 09:40:37 -0700 Subject: BNC to VGA Cable In-Reply-To: <4B83EA71.29592.12FD3F7@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4B5C86C3.8090302@e-bbes.com>, <4B5D0439.8010003@oldskool.org>, <4B845657.2030403@e-bbes.com> <4B83EA71.29592.12FD3F7@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4B855685.3000301@e-bbes.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 23 Feb 2010 at 15:27, e.stiebler wrote: > >> Three large orders later, I have pretty much all I need ! >> (I hope ;-) ) > > So, this is different from a conventional BNC->VGA cable with female- > female "unions" installed on all of the BNCs? No, that's pretty much what it is ;-) > Still trying to understand this one; sorry for being dense. Don't worry, I appreciate help and sometimes people are not just clarifying it for them, but for me too ;-) And I needed three orders, because they also had a lot of other stuff which I was looking for. So big boxes with little connectors came. Quality is not the best, but for connecting something in the garage it is OK. Cheers & Thanks ! From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Wed Feb 24 11:17:03 2010 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2010 09:17:03 -0800 Subject: OT: white LEDs (was: Re: Solderless breadboarding (and 68010 vs References: <4B829063.19896.149BF87@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at,Feb 22, 10 02:10:43 pm,, <4B841167.21534.1C80219@cclist.sydex.com>, <4B848B8F.123929E1@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <4B855F0D.96A3F6E@cs.ubc.ca> dwight elvey wrote: > > From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca > > I have on occasion run single LEDs from line voltage by paralleling the LED > > with a diode, then putting the pair in series with a C and R. C is calculated > > to provide most of the voltage drop via capacitive reactance, a small R is > > still present to limit inrush current. The diode limits the reverse voltage and > > permits bidirectional current flow so the cap sees AC. > > > > Power consumption and heat dissipation are reduced compared to a solution using > > only R, and a power resistor is not needed. > > I haven't tested the circuit over many on/off cycles though, to find out > > whether perhaps the peak in-rush current reduces LED life. > > The diode across the LED serves two purposes. There is that that you mentioned > about the capacitor and the other is to keep the LED from burning up. > When the voltage reverses on the LED, it is back biased. The LED > zeners at about 10 to 12 volts someplace with almost the same current > as it had when forward biased. A simple I*E calculations shows that > in this mode it is using about 10 time the power as forward biased. > When I first did this I forgot the diode and noticed that the LED > was glowing orange. Checking with my finger confirmed that it was > quite hot. (Yes, I mentioned both purposes: AC current flow and limiting the reverse voltage.) I had a similar experience as you when first experimenting with this with just a simple R. I wondered about Vr for the LED but didn't find it specified anywhere in databooks, so I found out what happens as you did. I didn't measure the breakdown V though, interesting you found it as you specify. From dkelvey at hotmail.com Wed Feb 24 12:01:31 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2010 10:01:31 -0800 Subject: OT: white LEDs (was: Re: Solderless breadboarding (and 68010 vs In-Reply-To: <4B855F0D.96A3F6E@cs.ubc.ca> References: <4B829063.19896.149BF87@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis",at,Feb 22, 10 02:10:43 pm, , , <4B841167.21534.1C80219@cclist.sydex.com>, , <4B848B8F.123929E1@cs.ubc.ca>, , <4B855F0D.96A3F6E@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: > From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca ---snip--- > > > > The diode across the LED serves two purposes. There is that that you mentioned > > about the capacitor and the other is to keep the LED from burning up. > > When the voltage reverses on the LED, it is back biased. The LED > > zeners at about 10 to 12 volts someplace with almost the same current > > as it had when forward biased. A simple I*E calculations shows that > > in this mode it is using about 10 time the power as forward biased. > > When I first did this I forgot the diode and noticed that the LED > > was glowing orange. Checking with my finger confirmed that it was > > quite hot. > > (Yes, I mentioned both purposes: AC current flow and limiting the reverse voltage.) > I had a similar experience as you when first experimenting with this with just > a simple R. I wondered about Vr for the LED but didn't find it specified > anywhere in databooks, so I found out what happens as you did. I didn't measure > the breakdown V though, interesting you found it as you specify. I've seen it as part of the maximum ratings and as I recall they specify something like 5V. Of course, they will take something larger before breaking down than the max rated. The red one I measured was on the order of 11 volts. I'm told the blue LEDs are more sensitive to reverse voltage and will be damaged easily. It is interesting that even after having the LED glow orange from reverse voltage, when I fixed the problem, it worked normal. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail: Free, trusted and rich email service. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/201469228/direct/01/ From snhirsch at gmail.com Wed Feb 24 11:57:01 2010 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2010 12:57:01 -0500 (EST) Subject: FC5025 USB 5.25 floppy controller - first report In-Reply-To: <4B84DAF4.26205.A273E@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4B84DAF4.26205.A273E@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 24 Feb 2010, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 23 Feb 2010 at 18:13, Steven Hirsch wrote: > >> Fair enough :-). The TTL chips of which you speak are bidi bus >> transceivers, correct? Would you use the R/W line to switch >> directions, or is there other magic involved? >> >> Any construction tips? (Schematic would be nice - but hand-waving >> works, too!) > > Not even that complicated. What Tony and I have been talking about > are bog-plain 7407 open-collector non-inverting buffer chips. The > floppy bus (if it can be called that) is unidirectional. So, > basically, for controller outputs, you feed said output into a 7407, > adding a small pullup (2K2 should be fine) and run the output of the > 7407 to your floppies. Inputs to the controller reverse this and use > a 150 ohm pullup on the input to the 7407 from the floppy, with the > output feeding the controller (which should have its own pullup, so > none required on your part). Ok, so you are not conditioning the data lines? That's where I had the notion that bidirectional buffers were needed. -- From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Feb 24 14:40:53 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2010 20:40:53 +0000 (GMT) Subject: OT: white LEDs In-Reply-To: <20100223220812.0bad0059.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> from "Jochen Kunz" at Feb 23, 10 10:08:12 pm Message-ID: > > Has anyone ever tried them for flim photograhpy? > I saw white LEDs used as lighting for macro photography. Though with Yes, that's what I was thinking of using them for. A ring of white LEDs around the lens may be useable as a cheap alternative to a ringdlash (which I don't own, and can't justify buying). > digital cameras. Most white LEDs are weak on the red side of the > spectrum. Sometimes this gets mitigated by adding extra red LEDs. I would have thought the problem with doing that is that the red LED output is a very narrow band of wavelengths. It may not compensate that well on colour film I guess the thing to do is to try it. OK, sometime when I've got some spare time I will pay around with various LEDs, a camera and a grey card. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Feb 24 14:45:39 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2010 20:45:39 +0000 (GMT) Subject: OT: white LEDs In-Reply-To: <4B8448B9.7000705@verizon.net> from "Keith" at Feb 23, 10 04:29:29 pm Message-ID: > > Tony Duell wrote: > > > Has anyone ever tried them for flim[sic] photograhpy[sic]? THe data sheets I looked > > at showed a fairly continuous output spectrrum[sic] (unlike the pure colour > > LEDs, of course), which could presumably be filtered into something that > > looked like daylight to colour film. > > As long as the output color temperature of the light is fairly > consistent, it doesn't matter much if it skewed to one side or another. Well, it pmatters on reversal film, in that you can't correct it later. But of course you can use colour correction filters when you take the photograph. But only if the light spectrum is relatively continuous. No way can you correct the ligth from a low-pressure sodium lamp, or LEDs other than white ones. > > We shoot gray cards to achieve a neutral white balance. > > When you deal with mixed lighting scenarios inside a house, you're > basically dealing w/ the same thing. You might have some filtered > daylight through a window, some incandescent bulbs, and so on. When you have mixed lighting, it's imppossible to get the colours spot-on (unless you filter the light sources). Whether that matters depends on what you are photographing and why. My idea for usiong white LEDs is a shadowless light source for macro work, which in my case is likely to be bits of computers, calculators, etc. The colours don't have to be perfect (I am not going to try to match them later), but of course I don't want a strong overall cast to the picture. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Feb 24 15:18:24 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2010 21:18:24 +0000 (GMT) Subject: OT: white LEDs (was: Re: Solderless breadboarding (and 68010 vs In-Reply-To: <4B8451A3.17495.319627@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Feb 23, 10 10:07:31 pm Message-ID: > I remember a code-practice oscillator circuit that was line-powered a > long time ago. It used a 6SL7 twin triode, with one section > operating as a rectifier and the other, as the oscillator. The IIRC, there were American valves (perhaps I should say tubes :-)) that contained a half-wave rectifier and an audio autput pentode in one envelope. The number 70L7 springs to mind, but I am not well up in US valve numbers. They were desinged for use (in the obvious way) in lo-fi record playes (a crystal pickup cartridge would give enough signal to drive the pentode section). I am suprised your conde practice oscillator didn't use one of those. > curious thing was that the filament of the 6SL7 was powered off of > line voltage connected through a 1 uF non-polarized oil-paper > capacitor. I actually built one--it worked just fine, particularly > if you took care to ensure that the chassis wasn't live. Did it have haedphones as the audio output devices? If so, it only takes one little insulation breakdown to turn it into a fair version of the electric chair... Antohter trick used over here in hybrid TV sets (using transistors for the small-signal stages and valves in the output stages) was to put a diode in series iwth the heater string. This reduced the dropping resistor needed (and saved power). Often, the supply to the transistor stages was taken from the bottom end of the heater string, using the heaters as the dropping resistor for that supply. Getting back to LEDs, I bought a cheap wall-wart polarity tester. It conists of a couple of LEDs and limiting reistors wired to assorted power connectors. The LED/resistor pairs are wired in inverse paralel, so one lights for tip +ve, the other for tip -ve (and both light for an AC wall-wart). But of course the LED that's not on gets the full wall-wort output voltage applied to it backwards, which is not a good thing. I modified miue by removing one of the resistors and adding a jumper wire on the PCB so the LEDs were in inverse parallel, and thus each LED limited the reverse voltage applied ot the other one. This must be one of the few cheap products which can be improved by removing a component -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Feb 24 14:58:07 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2010 20:58:07 +0000 (GMT) Subject: FC5025 USB 5.25 floppy controller - first report In-Reply-To: from "Steven Hirsch" at Feb 23, 10 06:13:44 pm Message-ID: > Fair enough :-). The TTL chips of which you speak are bidi bus > transceivers, correct? Would you use the R/W line to switch directions, > or is there other magic involved? No, they're just palin unidirectional buffers, open collector outputs. Look up the 7406 (inverting) and 7407 (non inverting) data sheets. I am sure they're on the web somewhere (I've not checked, I've got several paper TTL data books here). The lines to a floppy dirve do not reverse direction. Eachg signal is either controller to drive (for example, the drive select lines, write data, write gate, step, direction, etc) or drive to controller (e.g. read data, index, track 0, etc). You need to buffer the signals from controller to drive, certainly. I'd use a circuit like this for each signal -- and put it close to the controller board. : +5V --- | / 1k \ / | | |\ Controller output signal -----+----||>--------------- Drive input signal |/ 1/6 7407 buffer Each 7407 will buffer 8 signala. The 1k resistor is a pull-up and is necessary if teh controller has open-collector outputs (as it should do, bit I bet some don't). ou need to fit the 150 Ohm terminating resistors in the drive, which will act as pull-ups on the 7407 open-collector outputs. You can probably get away with leaving the input signals alone. If you want to do things properly, you might try putting a termination resistor between each input signal and +5V at the controler end of the cable. If the cotnroller has 1k pull-ups, then try a 180 Ohm resistor (180 // 1k gives about 150 Ohms). If you are a purist (as I guess I am :-)), you might try something like : +5V --- | \ / 150 Ohm \ / | |\ |\ Drive output----+---|#>o---|#>o------Controller input |/ |/ 2/6 74LS14 Schmitt trigger inverter Each 74LS14 contains 6 schmitt trigger inverters, you need 2 for each signal (since you don't want ot invert the signal, and AFAIK there is no non-onverting schmitt trigger in the TTL range). So each 74LS14 will buffer 3 signals. Again, you want to put this as close to the cotnroller as you can. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Feb 24 15:26:10 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2010 21:26:10 +0000 (GMT) Subject: DEC H777 PSU In-Reply-To: <53e388f21002240739v4ecf2417wed99871f4fa8d595@mail.gmail.com> from "Adrian Graham" at Feb 24, 10 03:39:57 pm Message-ID: > > Folks, > > Got a PDP 11/04 on the bench here at work with an H777 (54-11599) PSU in > with a sticker on it that says 'pop, bang & smoke'. I've downloaded the > maintenance printset from Manx (yay Manx) but before I even begin I've > noticed a terminal block on the transformer that indicates a jumper between > terminals 1&2 and 3&4 for 115V and an additional jumper between 2&3 for > 230V. I've not checked the prints, but I would have thoguht it was jumper 1-2 and 3-4 for 115V and jumper 2-3 _only_ for 230V. As you've worded it, it suggest you mean to jumper all 4 terminals for 230V (which I suspect whould chort out the mains!). > > This third jumper is missing so have the owners of this PDP just put 230V > across a PSU jumpered for 115V? Well, if they plugged it into 230V, it sounds like it. But 115V outlets are not totally unheard-of in UK factories, etc, so it's possible it was strapped for 115V and used on 115V Incidnetally, there's at least one DEC PSU -- and I think it might be this one -- that has an inrush limiter resistor that's shorted out by a relay once the supply has got going. If this relay doesn't make properly, the resistor gets left in circuit, and gets hot and bothered as a result. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Feb 24 15:29:32 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2010 21:29:32 +0000 (GMT) Subject: FC5025 USB 5.25 floppy controller - first report In-Reply-To: from "Steven Hirsch" at Feb 24, 10 12:57:01 pm Message-ID: > Ok, so you are not conditioning the data lines? That's where I had the > notion that bidirectional buffers were needed. What data lines? The floppy interface has a write data line, which is unidirectional controller to drive and a read data line which is unidirectional drive to controller. They are both bit-serial (and 'raw', in that they directly relate to magnetic flux transitions at the head). There is no bidirectional data bus on the normal floppy disk interface. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Feb 24 15:03:23 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2010 21:03:23 +0000 (GMT) Subject: OT: white LEDs (was: Re: Solderless breadboarding (and 68010 vs In-Reply-To: <4B841167.21534.1C80219@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Feb 23, 10 05:33:27 pm Message-ID: > the 70-LED strings get by with a resistor only. The 100 LED strings > appear to use a diode. Heaven forfend that a diode bridge be used > for them--that could cost additional cents per string. Ouch!. When I was designing the white LED stroboscope, I looked at various LED data sheets on the web. They all emphasised the peak revese voltage (which was quite low -- a few volts), and said that the LED would be damaged if this was exceeded. Needless to say putting a resistor in series and applying 110V AC is going to exceed that revese voltage. > > There's some fellow on the web who's been making various line/mains- > operated lights using only a resistor in series with a single LED. > Weird--I would have at least paralleled the LED with another > resistor. I'll try to find his web page, if anyone's interested. The normal trick is to put a diode in inverse parallel. The diode only needs to have a PIV equal to the _forward_ voltage of the LED (think about it, either the diode of LED is forward biased on each half cycle), so just aobut any diode would do. I'd probably use a 1N4007 since it would survive if the LED went open-circut, and anyway, I have them in stock :-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Feb 24 15:06:43 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2010 21:06:43 +0000 (GMT) Subject: OT: white LEDs (was: Re: Solderless breadboarding (and 68010 vs In-Reply-To: <4B848B8F.123929E1@cs.ubc.ca> from "Brent Hilpert" at Feb 23, 10 06:14:41 pm Message-ID: > > Chuck Guzis wrote: > > > There's some fellow on the web who's been making various line/mains- > > operated lights using only a resistor in series with a single LED. > > Weird--I would have at least paralleled the LED with another > > resistor. I'll try to find his web page, if anyone's interested. > > I have on occasion run single LEDs from line voltage by paralleling the LED > with a diode, then putting the pair in series with a C and R. C is calculated > to provide most of the voltage drop via capacitive reactance, a small R is > still present to limit inrush current. The diode limits the reverse voltage and > permits bidirectional current flow so the cap sees AC. If you use a 'capacitive dropper' (as they tend to be known in the UK), it's worth putting a high value resistor (1M or so) in parallel with the capacitor to discharge it when you unplug the device. Otherwise, if you unplug it at the right (wrong ?) point on the AC cycle, you'll get zapped if you touch the plug pins. -tony From dkelvey at hotmail.com Wed Feb 24 15:41:21 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2010 13:41:21 -0800 Subject: FC5025 USB 5.25 floppy controller - first report In-Reply-To: References: , , <4B84DAF4.26205.A273E@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: > From: snhirsch at gmail.com ---snip--- > > Ok, so you are not conditioning the data lines? That's where I had the > notion that bidirectional buffers were needed. > > -- > There are no bidirectional lines used from or to a floppy drive. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail: Trusted email with Microsoft?s powerful SPAM protection. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/201469226/direct/01/ From cclist at sydex.com Wed Feb 24 15:42:56 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2010 13:42:56 -0800 Subject: FC5025 USB 5.25 floppy controller - first report In-Reply-To: References: , <4B84DAF4.26205.A273E@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4B852CE0.6962.14A29BA@cclist.sydex.com> On 24 Feb 2010 at 12:57, Steven Hirsch wrote: > Ok, so you are not conditioning the data lines? That's where I had > the notion that bidirectional buffers were needed. No, not at all. All data lines are unidirectional (e.g. READ DATA, WRITE DATA, WRITE GATE). We're just matching the drive specs of the two devices. You could, if you wanted, insert a schmitt trigger device on the read data line for some conditioning (e.g. 74LS14). --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Wed Feb 24 16:01:25 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2010 14:01:25 -0800 Subject: OT: white LEDs (was: Re: Solderless breadboarding (and 68010 vs In-Reply-To: References: <4B8451A3.17495.319627@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Feb 23, 10 10:07:31 pm, Message-ID: <4B853135.28530.15B1380@cclist.sydex.com> On 24 Feb 2010 at 21:18, Tony Duell wrote: > IIRC, there were American valves (perhaps I should say tubes :-)) that > contained a half-wave rectifier and an audio autput pentode in one > envelope. The number 70L7 springs to mind, but I am not well up in US > valve numbers. > > They were desinged for use (in the obvious way) in lo-fi record playes > (a crystal pickup cartridge would give enough signal to drive the > pentode section). > > I am suprised your conde practice oscillator didn't use one of those. Cost, mostly. Even at contemporary prices, the 6SL7 was far cheaper and more common than a 70L7 or the more usual 117L7/M7/N7. The dual triodes were part of most TV sets and a fair number of audio amplifiers. I remember some "universal" battery-line sets that used a 117Z3 rectifier to drop the line voltage and also to supply the filament voltage for battery sets when run from the AC line. This was before selenium rectifiers became common. > Did it have haedphones as the audio output devices? If so, it only > takes one little insulation breakdown to turn it into a fair version > of the electric chair... Yes, but it used a resistor as a plate load and a capacitor coupled to the headphones. An interstage AF transformer would have been much safer--but again, cost was an object. If you were any kind of a scavenger, getting on the air meant at most finding an old AM radio or two and a TV set. You could go to a swap meet for transmitter crystals or beg one. A 6v 150 ma pilot lamp would serve as an adquate plate current indicator. Coils could be easily hand-wound. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Wed Feb 24 16:17:19 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2010 14:17:19 -0800 Subject: OT: white LEDs (was: Re: Solderless breadboarding (and 68010 vs In-Reply-To: <4B848B8F.123929E1@cs.ubc.ca> References: <4B829063.19896.149BF87@cclist.sydex.com>, <4B848B8F.123929E1@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <4B8534EF.27779.169A452@cclist.sydex.com> Using capacitive reactance to drop AC line voltage is still alive and kicking in this design for a PWM controller, where a PIC is run from line current. At the very least, I'd add a fuse to keep the fire danger down: http://tinyurl.com/ygr9vz7 --Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Feb 24 16:23:32 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2010 17:23:32 -0500 Subject: OT: white LEDs (was: Re: Solderless breadboarding (and 68010 vs In-Reply-To: <4B8534EF.27779.169A452@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4B829063.19896.149BF87@cclist.sydex.com>, <4B848B8F.123929E1@cs.ubc.ca> <4B8534EF.27779.169A452@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <26839D9C-ECB7-4F17-A092-2199583BC815@neurotica.com> On Feb 24, 2010, at 5:17 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Using capacitive reactance to drop AC line voltage is still alive and > kicking in this design for a PWM controller, where a PIC is run from > line current. At the very least, I'd add a fuse to keep the fire > danger down: > > http://tinyurl.com/ygr9vz7 Yes I was quite amused that this article just happened to come through today :) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From dkelvey at hotmail.com Wed Feb 24 16:40:55 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2010 14:40:55 -0800 Subject: OT: white LEDs (was: Re: Solderless breadboarding (and 68010 vs In-Reply-To: <4B8534EF.27779.169A452@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4B829063.19896.149BF87@cclist.sydex.com>, , <4B848B8F.123929E1@cs.ubc.ca>, <4B8534EF.27779.169A452@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: Hi I was thinking about the capacitor dropper for the LED. One could add yet another diode and a capacitor that would be large enough to absorb any inrush if turned on at peak. You'd put the new diode in series with the LED and the capacitor in parallel with the LED. The other back diode would go across both the LED and new diode. Dwight > From: cclist at sydex.com > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2010 14:17:19 -0800 > Subject: Re: OT: white LEDs (was: Re: Solderless breadboarding (and 68010 vs > > Using capacitive reactance to drop AC line voltage is still alive and > kicking in this design for a PWM controller, where a PIC is run from > line current. At the very least, I'd add a fuse to keep the fire > danger down: > > http://tinyurl.com/ygr9vz7 > > --Chuck > _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail: Trusted email with Microsoft?s powerful SPAM protection. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/201469226/direct/01/ From pete at dunnington.plus.com Wed Feb 24 16:52:17 2010 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2010 22:52:17 +0000 Subject: OT: white LEDs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B85ADA1.7040908@dunnington.plus.com> On 24/02/2010 20:40, Tony Duell wrote: >>> Has anyone ever tried them for flim photograhpy? >> I saw white LEDs used as lighting for macro photography. Though with > > Yes, that's what I was thinking of using them for. A ring of white LEDs > around the lens may be useable as a cheap alternative to a ringdlash > (which I don't own, and can't justify buying). You can actually buy ringlights made in that manner, and they work pretty well. There are usually some cheap ones on a famous "auction" site and more expensive ones available from photographic suppliers. I've seen DIY versions on sites such as http://www.diyphotography.net/search/node/ringlight White LEDs are also popular with some microscopists, and I have a rather Heath Robinson device I use in that way. I keep meaning to rebuild it properly rather than using crocodile clip to hold parts in place, but it gives good controllable light. At least one of the microscopy sites has some reviews suggesting makes/types that have a good spectrum: http://www.micrographia.com/index.htm http://www.micrographia.com/articlz/artmicgr/lmpideal/lmpi0500.htm -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From legalize at xmission.com Wed Feb 24 17:18:57 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2010 16:18:57 -0700 Subject: VAX graphics In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 16 Feb 2010 08:10:03 +0100. <20100216071003.GA27208@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: In article <20100216071003.GA27208 at Update.UU.SE>, Pontus Pihlgren writes: > An alternative is that the image is loaded from disk into the frame > buffer, they do talk about "load" images from files. OK, yes, relative speed of disk and memory would account for the slow wipe of the image as they load it. I hadn't thought about that. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Wed Feb 24 17:26:43 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2010 16:26:43 -0700 Subject: VAX graphics In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 16 Feb 2010 20:28:55 +0100. <4B7AF1F7.8030008@softjar.se> Message-ID: In article <4B7AF1F7.8030008 at softjar.se>, Johnny Billquist writes: > After searching the net for a while, I think it is an E&S graphic > system. ES340 seems most likely, but ES390 might also be it. I doubt its an E&S system because its raster based. AFAIK, all the E&S terminals and DEC peripherals were vector based until the PS/390. If this were a PS/390, then it would have the characteristic black enclosure for the monitor, keyboard and tablet. Also, E&S products were high-end and had hardware line drawing at a minimum, whereas this system appears to be a simple memory-mapped frame buffer with no additional hardware acceleration. The PS/390 was the first "Picture System" to support raster operations. The primary market for these peripherals was the molecular design/molecular modeling community and they needed very high quality line renderings of their models. Until the antialiasing technology for raster graphics introduced on the PS/390 the only way to achieve that quality was to use a vector based display. The raster display decoupled the display refresh rate from the frame rendering rate, allowing very high quality renderings of complex models at the cost of interactivity. Similar technology to that used in the PS/390 was used in E&S's first workstation the ESV. I worked on the ASIC that performed this process in the ESV in the summer of 1989. The workstation was released in Q4 1989. All the E&S products were raster from then on, with the exception of calligraphic light overlays used in the simulation products. I have a PS/390 base and several ESV workstations in my collection. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From andreww591 at gmail.com Wed Feb 24 17:35:57 2010 From: andreww591 at gmail.com (Andrew Warkentin) Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2010 16:35:57 -0700 Subject: Wanted: RS/6000, 5250 Twinax cable/terminator, AlphaServer 1000A SCSI cable/terminator, DEC 3000 motherboard Message-ID: <4B85B7DD.3080309@gmail.com> I am looking for a few things: I recently picked up an iSeries 270 and an AS/400 Model 200. A terminal and an 8-port Twinax hub were included, but not the cable to connect the terminal to the hub. The terminal has a "Y" cable with a DA15 and two female Twinax connectors. The connectors on the hub are also female, so I think that what I need is an M-M Twinax cable. I'm not sure if a terminator is required for the un-connected Twinax connector on the "Y" cable or not (I'm not really very familiar with AS/400s). I have an AlphaServer 1000A 4/266 which is missing the terminator for the internal SCSI backplane (because this is missing, the SCSI drives sometimes stop responding and cause the system to hang). It is also missing the cable to connect the two sections of the backplane. Does anybody have either of these? I have a DEC 3000/300X that no longer boots. The diagnostic LEDs show "FA", which represents a memory test failure. I think that one of the SIMM slots is damaged. When I got it, it would only boot after I removed and re-installed the SIMMs. I tried cleaning the SIMMs and slots with 99% alcohol, so I don't think that dirty contacts are a problem. I think that replacing the motherboard would fix the problem. I am also looking for an RS/6000 (preferably one with PCI rather than MCA). Does anybody have one that they want to get rid of for free or cheap? From IanK at vulcan.com Wed Feb 24 17:37:45 2010 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2010 15:37:45 -0800 Subject: OT: white LEDs In-Reply-To: <4B85ADA1.7040908@dunnington.plus.com> References: <4B85ADA1.7040908@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Pete Turnbull > Sent: Wednesday, February 24, 2010 2:52 PM > To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: OT: white LEDs > [snip] > White LEDs are also popular with some microscopists, and I have a > rather > Heath Robinson device I use in that way. I keep meaning to rebuild it > properly rather than using crocodile clip to hold parts in place, but > it > gives good controllable light. At least one of the microscopy sites > has > some reviews suggesting makes/types that have a good spectrum: > http://www.micrographia.com/index.htm > http://www.micrographia.com/articlz/artmicgr/lmpideal/lmpi0500.htm > > -- My daughter wanted a microscope for Christmas (!) and 'Santa brought' what seems to be a really nice unit available at Top Ten Toys. I mention it because it apparently uses white LEDs for both above- and below-stage lighting (switch selectable) and the view is great. It's WAY better than the microscope I had as a kid. -- Ian From legalize at xmission.com Wed Feb 24 18:30:58 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2010 17:30:58 -0700 Subject: Windows 1.0, Windows 2.0, Windows 3.0 Message-ID: Does anyone have these releases of Windows prior to Windows 3.1? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Feb 24 18:40:43 2010 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2010 16:40:43 -0800 (PST) Subject: Windows 1.0, Windows 2.0, Windows 3.0 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I have a sealed copy of Windows 1 (might actually be 1.01, IIRC). Zane On Wed, 24 Feb 2010, Richard wrote: > Does anyone have these releases of Windows prior to Windows 3.1? > -- > "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download > > > Legalize Adulthood! > From segin2005 at gmail.com Wed Feb 24 18:45:27 2010 From: segin2005 at gmail.com (Kirn Gill) Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2010 19:45:27 -0500 Subject: Windows 1.0, Windows 2.0, Windows 3.0 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5a4d65ae1002241645s15b8c62djc1dba34547c7ebad@mail.gmail.com> On Thursday, February 25, 2010, Zane H. Healy wrote: > I have a sealed copy of Windows 1 (might actually be 1.01, IIRC). > > Zane > > It is, the first release was 1.01, there was no 1 or 1.00 (depending on how you would perfer to write it) -- -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.12 GIT d-- s:+ a--- C++++ UB++++ P+ L++++ E--- W+++ N++ o K- w--- O++ M+ V-- PS+++ PE-- Y PGP+++ t++ 5 X R tv-- b DI++ D++ G e h++ r++ y+ ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Wed Feb 24 18:51:29 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2010 00:51:29 +0000 Subject: OT: white LEDs (was: Re: Solderless breadboarding (and 68010 vs 68000)) In-Reply-To: <4B832481.9040700@gmail.com> References: <20100222203440.1a61f2d4.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <4B826EBE.30314.C6538B@cclist.sydex.com> <20100222213545.GA28992@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> <4B82FF6B.7010807@verizon.net> <75154262-A4D3-4D72-86CE-5E1C7264EA44@neurotica.com> <4B832481.9040700@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B85C991.8080501@philpem.me.uk> Jules Richardson wrote: > I see quite a few incandescents up here in northern MN still; it's > rumored that the harsh winters cause problems with the LED ones - they > just don't output enough heat, so snow and ice can build up and obscure > them. ... So put heaters in them to keep the lenses warm in winter! :) (it only has to go a few degrees above zero... shouldn't take that much power if it's on a time-limited thermostat) -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Feb 24 19:09:50 2010 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2010 17:09:50 -0800 (PST) Subject: Windows 1.0, Windows 2.0, Windows 3.0 In-Reply-To: <5a4d65ae1002241645s15b8c62djc1dba34547c7ebad@mail.gmail.com> References: <5a4d65ae1002241645s15b8c62djc1dba34547c7ebad@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 24 Feb 2010, Kirn Gill wrote: > On Thursday, February 25, 2010, Zane H. Healy wrote: >> I have a sealed copy of Windows 1 (might actually be 1.01, IIRC). >> >> Zane >> >> > > It is, the first release was 1.01, there was no 1 or 1.00 (depending > on how you would perfer to write it) Looks like I have 1.03. Zane From dkelvey at hotmail.com Wed Feb 24 19:10:53 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2010 17:10:53 -0800 Subject: OT: white LEDs (was: Re: Solderless breadboarding (and 68010 vs 68000)) In-Reply-To: <4B85C991.8080501@philpem.me.uk> References: <20100222203440.1a61f2d4.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <4B826EBE.30314.C6538B@cclist.sydex.com> <20100222213545.GA28992@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> <4B82FF6B.7010807@verizon.net> <75154262-A4D3-4D72-86CE-5E1C7264EA44@neurotica.com>, <4B832481.9040700@gmail.com>, <4B85C991.8080501@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: > From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk > > Jules Richardson wrote: > > I see quite a few incandescents up here in northern MN still; it's > > rumored that the harsh winters cause problems with the LED ones - they > > just don't output enough heat, so snow and ice can build up and obscure > > them. > > ... So put heaters in them to keep the lenses warm in winter! :) > > (it only has to go a few degrees above zero... shouldn't take that much > power if it's on a time-limited thermostat) > > -- > Phil. Heating water one degree = 1 calorie per cu-centimeter Heating Ice one degree = 80 calorie per cu-centimeter Melting ice takes a lot of power. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail: Free, trusted and rich email service. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/201469228/direct/01/ From dkelvey at hotmail.com Wed Feb 24 19:13:48 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2010 17:13:48 -0800 Subject: OT: white LEDs (was: Re: Solderless breadboarding (and 68010 vs 68000)) In-Reply-To: References: <20100222203440.1a61f2d4.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>, <4B826EBE.30314.C6538B@cclist.sydex.com>, <20100222213545.GA28992@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>, <4B82FF6B.7010807@verizon.net>, <75154262-A4D3-4D72-86CE-5E1C7264EA44@neurotica.com>, , <4B832481.9040700@gmail.com>, <4B85C991.8080501@philpem.me.uk>, Message-ID: > From: dkelvey at hotmail.com > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: RE: OT: white LEDs (was: Re: Solderless breadboarding (and 68010 vs 68000)) > Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2010 17:10:53 -0800 > > > > > From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk > > > > Jules Richardson wrote: > > > I see quite a few incandescents up here in northern MN still; it's > > > rumored that the harsh winters cause problems with the LED ones - they > > > just don't output enough heat, so snow and ice can build up and obscure > > > them. > > > > ... So put heaters in them to keep the lenses warm in winter! :) > > > > (it only has to go a few degrees above zero... shouldn't take that much > > power if it's on a time-limited thermostat) > > > > -- > > Phil. > > Heating water one degree = 1 calorie per cu-centimeter > Heating Ice one degree = 80 calorie per cu-centimeter Oooops!!! meaning melting ice Dwight > > Melting ice takes a lot of power. > Dwight > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Hotmail: Free, trusted and rich email service. > http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/201469228/direct/01/ _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail: Free, trusted and rich email service. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/201469228/direct/01/ From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Wed Feb 24 20:28:43 2010 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2010 18:28:43 -0800 Subject: Nicolet DSO References: <17641.39335.qm@web110403.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>, ,,, , , <4B759AF5.3080709@garlic.com>, , <4B7538D3.20133.94F368@cclist.sydex.com>, , <4B78AFAE.C358B310@cs.ubc.ca> <4B78CA0E.D5156AEC@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <4B85E05B.12716592@cs.ubc.ca> (Dwight:) I opened up the Nicolet 2090-III DSO at the radio museum last week. There were no 9900 micro-procs (no I/O options I guess), I am somewhat surprised the basic scope seems to be done with dedicated logic. Three 2901 bit-slices, two Analog Devices ADC-80's (IIRC) for the A-D, bank of 2141's (nic) for RAM, some ROM's I think, and a lot of SSI/MSI. Date codes early 80's. The electronics may be interesting for the period, but as with other Nicolet equipment I have seen, the physical design is horrible in regards to accessibility and maintenance. Major portions of logic are buried and inaccessible without tortured dismantling. Fired it up, seems to work for capturing sine wave from finger on input. Still have to figure out some of the functions. I take it the 1H, 2H, 1Q, 2Q, etc. modes are for recording in interleaved halves or quarters of memory? Do you know if the SUB function subtracts a new sweep from the currently active memory, or does it operate on two portions of already-recorded memory? From brianlanning at gmail.com Wed Feb 24 23:25:11 2010 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2010 23:25:11 -0600 Subject: joysticks for dos games Message-ID: <6dbe3c381002242125v14b5981gb767d7a2aaa7f6b2@mail.gmail.com> I need to do a bit more research on this. But can someone suggest a good joystick for older PCs with db15 connectors? Most of them seem to be cheesy flight sticks. I've seen playstation style controllers with usb connectors on them. Something like this would be ideal if it had a db15 connector. Any suggestions? brian From cclist at sydex.com Wed Feb 24 23:38:08 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2010 21:38:08 -0800 Subject: joysticks for dos games In-Reply-To: <6dbe3c381002242125v14b5981gb767d7a2aaa7f6b2@mail.gmail.com> References: <6dbe3c381002242125v14b5981gb767d7a2aaa7f6b2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B859C40.14639.2FD37A1@cclist.sydex.com> On 24 Feb 2010 at 23:25, Brian Lanning wrote: > I need to do a bit more research on this. But can someone suggest a > good joystick for older PCs with db15 connectors? Most of them seem > to be cheesy flight sticks. I've seen playstation style controllers > with usb connectors on them. Something like this would be ideal if it > had a db15 connector. Any suggestions? The ones put out by Advanced Gravis were pretty good. Here's an example: http://www.kpsurplus.com/products/view/24320 There are usually a fair number on ePay. --Chuck From teoz at neo.rr.com Wed Feb 24 23:42:11 2010 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2010 00:42:11 -0500 Subject: joysticks for dos games References: <6dbe3c381002242125v14b5981gb767d7a2aaa7f6b2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brian Lanning" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, February 25, 2010 12:25 AM Subject: joysticks for dos games >I need to do a bit more research on this. But can someone suggest a good > joystick for older PCs with db15 connectors? Most of them seem to be > cheesy > flight sticks. I've seen playstation style controllers with usb > connectors > on them. Something like this would be ideal if it had a db15 connector. > Any suggestions? > > brian I still use my old Gravis Gamepad (flat with thumbstick and 4 buttons) or Gamepad Pro (Playstation look and feel). And if I play simulation games I have a Quickshop master pilot (not a joystick but a panel with buttons for each function since I forget what the key combos are). http://www.smartcomputing.com/images/smartcomputing/fullsize/393n0913.jpg http://thecoldfront.com/car/gamepadpro.jpg http://www.jolly-rogers.com/images/sim-masterpilot.jpg From legalize at xmission.com Wed Feb 24 23:53:17 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2010 22:53:17 -0700 Subject: Windows 1.0, Windows 2.0, Windows 3.0 In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 24 Feb 2010 16:40:43 -0800. Message-ID: In article , "Zane H. Healy" writes: > I have a sealed copy of Windows 1 (might actually be 1.01, IIRC). How'd you come by it? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From dkelvey at hotmail.com Thu Feb 25 00:32:43 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2010 22:32:43 -0800 Subject: Nicolet DSO In-Reply-To: <4B85E05B.12716592@cs.ubc.ca> References: <17641.39335.qm@web110403.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>, , , , , , , , <4B759AF5.3080709@garlic.com>, , , <4B7538D3.20133.94F368@cclist.sydex.com>, , , , <4B78AFAE.C358B310@cs.ubc.ca>, , <4B78CA0E.D5156AEC@cs.ubc.ca>, <4B85E05B.12716592@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: > Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2010 18:28:43 -0800 > From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Nicolet DSO > > (Dwight:) > > I opened up the Nicolet 2090-III DSO at the radio museum last week. There were > no 9900 micro-procs (no I/O options I guess), I am somewhat surprised the basic > scope seems to be done with dedicated logic. Three 2901 bit-slices, two Analog > Devices ADC-80's (IIRC) for the A-D, bank of 2141's (nic) for RAM, some ROM's I > think, and a lot of SSI/MSI. Date codes early 80's. > > The electronics may be interesting for the period, but as with other Nicolet > equipment I have seen, the physical design is horrible in regards to > accessibility and maintenance. Major portions of logic are buried and > inaccessible without tortured dismantling. Hi As I call it a puzzle box. > > Fired it up, seems to work for capturing sine wave from finger on input. Still > have to figure out some of the functions. I take it the 1H, 2H, 1Q, 2Q, etc. > modes are for recording in interleaved halves or quarters of memory? Do you > know if the SUB function subtracts a new sweep from the currently active > memory, or does it operate on two portions of already-recorded memory? It processes data in menory. Which it uses depends on where the memory switch is. It also records the two input channels in the two halves when the memory is set to all. The following are valid memory settings for subraction: Q3 Q1-Q3 into Q3 Q2 Q4-Q2 into Q2 Q4 Q2-Q4 into Q4 H1 H2-H1 into H1 H2 H1-H2 into H2 All No effect The memory is 4K total. Each quarter is 1K. When recodrding differential, one channel goes to H1 and the other H2 with All set. The invert allows one to add to by first inverting and then subracted. With the disk system that mine has, I can recall previous recodered results and do math on them. The one thing I found offensive has to do with the Pin operation. This sends the screen info to a XY plotter. The problem I found is that in order to use the memory effectively in XY mode for my analog computer, I need to do sparce sampling. When doing the pen mode, it does a square move from dot to dot. In other words, it does the move in one axis and then moves in the other axis. For the sparce sampling that I have it make the plotting worthless. I'd have thought that with the 2901's, it could have done the math to draw lines between the dot. It is still quite useful. When doing long runs, I can visualize exactly what I'm doing. Also, I can use the horizontal or vertical magnification to balance the gain and decay such that the sine/cosine generators don't decrease or increase in amplitude over the time spans I need to run a plot on my XY plotter. For these things it is just what I wanted. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail: Powerful Free email with security by Microsoft. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/201469230/direct/01/ From snhirsch at gmail.com Wed Feb 24 14:44:08 2010 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2010 15:44:08 -0500 (EST) Subject: FC5025 USB 5.25 floppy controller - first report In-Reply-To: References: , <4B84DAF4.26205.A273E@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 24 Feb 2010, Steven Hirsch wrote: > On Wed, 24 Feb 2010, Chuck Guzis wrote: > >> On 23 Feb 2010 at 18:13, Steven Hirsch wrote: >> >>> Fair enough :-). The TTL chips of which you speak are bidi bus >>> transceivers, correct? Would you use the R/W line to switch >>> directions, or is there other magic involved? >>> >>> Any construction tips? (Schematic would be nice - but hand-waving >>> works, too!) >> >> Not even that complicated. What Tony and I have been talking about >> are bog-plain 7407 open-collector non-inverting buffer chips. The >> floppy bus (if it can be called that) is unidirectional. So, >> basically, for controller outputs, you feed said output into a 7407, >> adding a small pullup (2K2 should be fine) and run the output of the >> 7407 to your floppies. Inputs to the controller reverse this and use >> a 150 ohm pullup on the input to the 7407 from the floppy, with the >> output feeding the controller (which should have its own pullup, so >> none required on your part). > > Ok, so you are not conditioning the data lines? That's where I had the > notion that bidirectional buffers were needed. Nevermind... I've been spending too much time with modern storage devices (SCSI, ATA, etc.). Keep forgetting that data communication between FDC and drive is serial data.... Steve -- From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Thu Feb 25 01:18:11 2010 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2010 23:18:11 -0800 Subject: Nicolet DSO References: <17641.39335.qm@web110403.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>, , , , , , , , <4B759AF5.3080709@garlic.com>, , , <4B7538D3.20133.94F368@cclist.sydex.com>, , , , <4B78AFAE.C358B310@cs.ubc.ca>, , <4B78CA0E.D5156AEC@cs.ubc.ca>, <4B85E05B.12716592@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <4B862434.4C458A54@cs.ubc.ca> > > Fired it up, seems to work for capturing sine wave from finger on input. Still > > have to figure out some of the functions. I take it the 1H, 2H, 1Q, 2Q, etc. > > modes are for recording in interleaved halves or quarters of memory? Do you > > know if the SUB function subtracts a new sweep from the currently active > > memory, or does it operate on two portions of already-recorded memory? > It processes data in menory. Which it uses depends on where the memory switch > is. It also records the two input channels in the two halves when the memory > is set to all. > > The following are valid memory settings for subraction: > > Q3 Q1-Q3 into Q3 > Q2 Q4-Q2 into Q2 > Q4 Q2-Q4 into Q4 > H1 H2-H1 into H1 > H2 H1-H2 into H2 > All No effect > > The memory is 4K total. Each quarter is 1K. When recodrding > differential, one channel goes to H1 and the other H2 with > All set. > > The invert allows one to add to by first inverting and then > subracted. Thanks, all that will give me a little more direction when I try playing with it next. I know they're are some functions listed I'm forgetting right now. > With the disk system that mine has, I can recall previous > recodered results and do math on them. > > The one thing I found offensive has to do with the Pin operation. > This sends the screen info to a XY plotter. The problem I found > is that in order to use the memory effectively in XY mode for > my analog computer, I need to do sparce sampling. When doing > the pen mode, it does a square move from dot to dot. In other > words, it does the move in one axis and then moves in the other axis. > For the sparce sampling that I have it make the plotting > worthless. I'd have thought that with the 2901's, it could > have done the math to draw lines between the dot. I think they're were some PROM's in there, so it may be a programmed state machine, but probably not much memory available considering everything else it is doing. From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Thu Feb 25 01:24:15 2010 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2010 23:24:15 -0800 Subject: Nicolet DSO References: <17641.39335.qm@web110403.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>, , , , , , , , <4B759AF5.3080709@garlic.com>, , , <4B7538D3.20133.94F368@cclist.sydex.com>, , , , <4B78AFAE.C358B310@cs.ubc.ca>, , <4B78CA0E.D5156AEC@cs.ubc.ca>, <4B85E05B.12716592@cs.ubc.ca> <4B862434.4C458A54@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <4B8625A0.99513F2A@cs.ubc.ca> Brent Hilpert wrote: > I know they're are some functions listed I'm forgetting right now. > I think they're were some PROM's in there, so it may be a programmed state ! Two misuses of they're/there in one message: time to go to sleep. From binarydinosaurs at gmail.com Thu Feb 25 03:51:15 2010 From: binarydinosaurs at gmail.com (Adrian Graham) Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2010 09:51:15 +0000 Subject: DEC H777 PSU In-Reply-To: References: <53e388f21002240739v4ecf2417wed99871f4fa8d595@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <53e388f21002250151y1d985cadld8704571672718ca@mail.gmail.com> On 24 February 2010 21:26, Tony Duell wrote: > I've not checked the prints, but I would have thoguht it was jumper 1-2 > and 3-4 for 115V and jumper 2-3 _only_ for 230V. As you've worded it, it > suggest you mean to jumper all 4 terminals for 230V (which I suspect > whould chort out the mains!). > You are indeed correct, there's 2 windings in the transformer that 2&3 join together. After I'd dismantled it and worked this out someone told me it's a 115V box anyway! > Well, if they plugged it into 230V, it sounds like it. But 115V outlets > are not totally unheard-of in UK factories, etc, so it's possible it was > strapped for 115V and used on 115V > Yup. > > Incidnetally, there's at least one DEC PSU -- and I think it might be > this one -- that has an inrush limiter resistor that's shorted out by a > relay once the supply has got going. If this relay doesn't make properly, > the resistor gets left in circuit, and gets hot and bothered as a result. > I'll check tomorrow. Didn't have a chance to do much else with it yesterday other than a visual to check for obviously blown components of which there appear to be none, certainly nothing that looks like it's let the magic smoke out... -- adrian/witchy Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest home computer collection? www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk From bqt at softjar.se Thu Feb 25 05:05:19 2010 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2010 12:05:19 +0100 Subject: VAX graphics In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B86596F.5000603@softjar.se> Richard wrote: >In article <4B7AF1F7.8030008 at softjar.se>, Johnny Billquist writes: >> > After searching the net for a while, I think it is an E&S graphic >> > system. ES340 seems most likely, but ES390 might also be it. > > I doubt its an E&S system because its raster based. That was a bad argument against it... :-) > AFAIK, all the E&S terminals and DEC peripherals were vector based > until the PS/390. If this were a PS/390, then it would have the > characteristic black enclosure for the monitor, keyboard and tablet. > Also, E&S products were high-end and had hardware line drawing at a > minimum, whereas this system appears to be a simple memory-mapped > frame buffer with no additional hardware acceleration. I think we should keep E&S systems apart from DEC systems. They are not the same, and mixing them up just confuses the issue. The system in the video was not something by DEC. However, DEC had bitmapped graphic systems long before this, but not with the resolution and depths shown in the video. > The PS/390 was the first "Picture System" to support raster > operations. The primary market for these peripherals was the > molecular design/molecular modeling community and they needed very > high quality line renderings of their models. Until the antialiasing > technology for raster graphics introduced on the PS/390 the only way > to achieve that quality was to use a vector based display. The raster > display decoupled the display refresh rate from the frame rendering > rate, allowing very high quality renderings of complex models at the > cost of interactivity. Well, the E&S PS/340 also was a raster display system, as an add-on to the PS/330. See http://www.bmsc.washington.edu/people/merritt/graphics/ps330/ps330.html I think it might very well be that which is shown on the video. Raster operations are another issue. The video is showing a bitmapped high resolution picture, and it obviously isn't too fast at loading another high res picture. And that is all we see them doing. No raster operations of any kind (unless you count the basic setting and clearing of pixels). > Similar technology to that used in the PS/390 was used in E&S's first > workstation the ESV. I worked on the ASIC that performed this process > in the ESV in the summer of 1989. The workstation was released in Q4 > 1989. All the E&S products were raster from then on, with the > exception of calligraphic light overlays used in the simulation > products. > > I have a PS/390 base and several ESV workstations in my collection. Nice. Johnny From dkelvey at hotmail.com Thu Feb 25 08:22:58 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2010 06:22:58 -0800 Subject: Nicolet DSO In-Reply-To: <4B862434.4C458A54@cs.ubc.ca> References: <17641.39335.qm@web110403.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>, , , ,,, , ,,, <4B759AF5.3080709@garlic.com>, , , , <4B7538D3.20133.94F368@cclist.sydex.com>, ,,, , , <4B78AFAE.C358B310@cs.ubc.ca>, , , , <4B78CA0E.D5156AEC@cs.ubc.ca>, <4B85E05B.12716592@cs.ubc.ca>, , <4B862434.4C458A54@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: > Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2010 23:18:11 -0800 > From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca ---snip--- > > I think they're were some PROM's in there, so it may be a programmed state > machine, but probably not much memory available considering everything else it > is doing. The PROMs are for the 2901s. These do the things like the subtraction, inversion, autocenter and run the display. Things like the digital numbers at the bottom of the screen are all created by the 2901s. Remember, as a DSO, the data is sampled and then put into the RAM. The 2901s then determine what to do with that data on the screen. The PROMs have the instructions for the 2901s to use. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail: Trusted email with Microsoft?s powerful SPAM protection. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/201469226/direct/01/ From thomas.bervenmark at xaar.se Thu Feb 25 08:52:52 2010 From: thomas.bervenmark at xaar.se (Thomas Bervenmark) Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2010 15:52:52 +0100 Subject: Visioncard Message-ID: <50F03658F4.08600096TFSXABCD@xaar.se> Dear Madam/Sir, My name is Thomas Bervenmark and I work at XaarJet AB in Stockholm, Sweden. We are looking for a very old vison card "Transtech Parallel, TMB08" with a module TTG-F card mounted on the motherboard. Is this something you could help us to find? I am not a list subscriber and so would appreciate direct email responses rather than replies to the list. Many thanks for your help in advance. Best regards, Thomas Bervenmark XaarJet AB __________________________________________ XaarJet AB Box 516 SE-175 26 Jarfalla, Sweden Phone: +46-(0)8-580 887 00 Fax: +46-(0)8-580 887 77 Website: http://www.xaar.se/ Xaar is a market-leading manufacturer of innovative digital inkjet printing technology. Note: The information contained in this e-mail is intended for the named recipient(s) only. It may also be privileged and confidential. If you are not an intended recipient, you must not copy, distribute or take any action in reliance upon it. No warranties or assurances are made in relation to safety, content and/or any attachments. No liability is accepted for any consequences arising from it. No warranties are given by Xaar, and no liability is accepted by Xaar, in relation to any loss arising from reliance placed on the information supplied in this email and attachments, other than those warranties expressly stated in Xaar's Standard Terms and Conditions of Sale. Xaar's Standard Terms and Conditions of Sale apply at all times. Xaar plc, registered in England no.3320972, XaarJet ltd, registered in England no.3375961, Xaar Technology ltd, registered in England no.2469592, Science Park, Cambridge, CB4 0XR, Tel +44(0)1223423663, Fax +44(0)1223423590 From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Feb 25 09:24:41 2010 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2010 07:24:41 -0800 Subject: Windows 1.0, Windows 2.0, Windows 3.0 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 10:53 PM -0700 2/24/10, Richard wrote: >In article , > "Zane H. Healy" writes: > >> I have a sealed copy of Windows 1 (might actually be 1.01, IIRC). > >How'd you come by it? I got it from that place which all things Windows belong. ;-) A Garbage Can. :-) I kept it since it's v1. Actually truth be told I have most releases up through XP Pro. The first version I touched professionally was v2. I've never had the misfortune of using Vista or Windows 7, though I'm using Server 2k8 and will probably have to start using Windows 7 soon. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From ats at offog.org Thu Feb 25 09:31:39 2010 From: ats at offog.org (Adam Sampson) Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2010 15:31:39 +0000 Subject: Visioncard In-Reply-To: <50F03658F4.08600096TFSXABCD@xaar.se> (Thomas Bervenmark's message of "Thu, 25 Feb 2010 15:52:52 +0100") References: <50F03658F4.08600096TFSXABCD@xaar.se> Message-ID: Thomas Bervenmark writes: > We are looking for a very old vison card "Transtech Parallel, TMB08" > with a module TTG-F card mounted on the motherboard. This is Transputer gear, so it's probably worth asking on the newsgroup comp.sys.transputer too. The TMB08 is an ISA card with 10 TRAM slots; the TTG-F is a framegrabber TRAM. Do you actually need both, or do you have a partly-functioning system already that you're trying to fix? The TTG-F is probably rather rarer than the TMB08... -- Adam Sampson From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Thu Feb 25 10:59:06 2010 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2010 10:59:06 -0600 Subject: OT: white LEDs (was: Re: Solderless breadboarding (and 68010 vs 68000)) In-Reply-To: <4B85C991.8080501@philpem.me.uk> References: <20100222203440.1a61f2d4.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <4B826EBE.30314.C6538B@cclist.sydex.com> <20100222213545.GA28992@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> <4B82FF6B.7010807@verizon.net> <75154262-A4D3-4D72-86CE-5E1C7264EA44@neurotica.com> <4B832481.9040700@gmail.com> <4B85C991.8080501@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4B86AC5A.2000307@gmail.com> Philip Pemberton wrote: > Jules Richardson wrote: >> I see quite a few incandescents up here in northern MN still; it's >> rumored that the harsh winters cause problems with the LED ones - they >> just don't output enough heat, so snow and ice can build up and >> obscure them. > > ... So put heaters in them to keep the lenses warm in winter! :) > > (it only has to go a few degrees above zero... shouldn't take that much > power if it's on a time-limited thermostat) Hence the: "Maybe the current generation have built-in heaters to combat this" bit ;-) I don't know if they actually do that, at least not yet. I expect it takes time to come up with a design (the easy bit) and then get it approved for actual use (lots of testing and paperwork, no doubt) cheers Jules From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Thu Feb 25 11:24:01 2010 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2010 09:24:01 -0800 Subject: Nicolet DSO References: <17641.39335.qm@web110403.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>, , , ,,, , ,,, <4B759AF5.3080709@garlic.com>, , , , <4B7538D3.20133.94F368@cclist.sydex.com>, ,,, , , <4B78AFAE.C358B310@cs.ubc.ca>, , , , <4B78CA0E.D5156AEC@cs.ubc.ca>, <4B85E05B.12716592@cs.ubc.ca>, , <4B862434.4C458A54@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <4B86B230.A3816DBB@cs.ubc.ca> dwight elvey wrote: > > From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca > > I think they're were some PROM's in there, so it may be a programmed state > > machine, but probably not much memory available considering everything else it > > is doing. > > The PROMs are for the 2901s. These do the things like the subtraction, inversion, > autocenter and run the display. Things like the digital numbers at the bottom > of the screen are all created by the 2901s. Remember, as a DSO, the data > is sampled and then put into the RAM. The 2901s then determine what > to do with that data on the screen. The PROMs have the instructions for > the 2901s to use. Yes, this is what I was guessing. Did you get the manual with yours? I should go back and open up the 1090, the model from 6 or so years earlier, IIRC it had an 8080 in there, don't remember if there were any 2901's. From leolists at seidkr.com Thu Feb 25 11:23:57 2010 From: leolists at seidkr.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Philip_Leonard_WV=D8T?=) Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2010 11:23:57 -0600 Subject: Wanted: RS/6000, 5250 Twinax cable/terminator, AlphaServer 1000A SCSI cable/terminator, DEC 3000 motherboard In-Reply-To: <4B85B7DD.3080309@gmail.com> References: <4B85B7DD.3080309@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B86B22D.6000401@seidkr.com> Andrew Warkentin wrote: > I am looking for a few things: > > I recently picked up an iSeries 270 and an AS/400 Model 200. A terminal > and an 8-port Twinax hub were included, but not the cable to connect the > terminal to the hub. The terminal has a "Y" cable with a DA15 and two > female Twinax connectors. The connectors on the hub are also female, so > I think that what I need is an M-M Twinax cable. I'm not sure if a > terminator is required for the un-connected Twinax connector on the "Y" > cable or not (I'm not really very familiar with AS/400s). You should not need a terminator. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Feb 25 00:22:42 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2010 06:22:42 +0000 (GMT) Subject: OT: white LEDs (was: Re: Solderless breadboarding (and 68010 vs In-Reply-To: <4B853135.28530.15B1380@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Feb 24, 10 02:01:25 pm Message-ID: > I remember some "universal" battery-line sets that used a 117Z3 > rectifier to drop the line voltage and also to supply the filament > voltage for battery sets when run from the AC line. This was before > selenium rectifiers became common. Yes, those directly-heated valves needed a DC fillament supply and before metal (or semiconductor) rectifiers became common. about the only way to get that from the mains was to use a dropping resistor from the HT (B+) line. At least one set over here used a mains transformer and a full-wave valve rectifier (I am thinking 'EZ40', which has a 6.3V heater and a B8A 'rimlock' base) to provide the HT (about 90V), with a series string of filaments (7.5V totla) run from that via a dropping resistor in mains mode. On batteries, of coursem it used separate 90V and 7.5V (!) dry batteries. > > > Did it have haedphones as the audio output devices? If so, it only > > takes one little insulation breakdown to turn it into a fair version > > of the electric chair... > > Yes, but it used a resistor as a plate load and a capacitor coupled > to the headphones. An interstage AF transformer would have been > much safer--but again, cost was an object. Well, as you well know by now, I do feel that many safety precautions are way OTT< but I am not going to wear headphones driectly connected to a hot chassis device like that. Yes, a transformer may be expensive, but I think it's cheaper than a funeral! > If you were any kind of a scavenger, getting on the air meant at most > finding an old AM radio or two and a TV set. You could go to a swap Presumavly you wanted the line output valve ('sweep tube'?) from the latter to use as the transmitter PA. > meet for transmitter crystals or beg one. A 6v 150 ma pilot lamp > would serve as an adquate plate current indicator. Coils could be > easily hand-wound. You mean it's all changed now? :-( -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Feb 25 00:25:43 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2010 06:25:43 +0000 (GMT) Subject: OT: white LEDs In-Reply-To: <4B85ADA1.7040908@dunnington.plus.com> from "Pete Turnbull" at Feb 24, 10 10:52:17 pm Message-ID: > You can actually buy ringlights made in that manner, and they work > pretty well. There are usually some cheap ones on a famous "auction" It is my experience that just about anything intended for photograp[hic use is way overpriced :-=). OK, I can't grind lenses, so I am happy to pay for good ones, but I am not going to pay high prices for things I can make in an afternoon or so. Quite apart from the fact that making the device and experiemnting with it is more fun to me than taking photographs... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Feb 25 00:28:03 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2010 06:28:03 +0000 (GMT) Subject: VAX graphics In-Reply-To: from "Richard" at Feb 24, 10 04:26:43 pm Message-ID: > AFAIK, all the E&S terminals and DEC peripherals were vector based > until the PS/390. If this were a PS/390, then it would have the > characteristic black enclosure for the monitor, keyboard and tablet. My PS/390 has an off-white monitor casing (and, IIRC, a white tablet). I think the keyboard is a white base with a black bezel round the keys. I have no reason to suspect that any of these parts are not original. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Feb 25 01:02:39 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2010 07:02:39 +0000 (GMT) Subject: DEC H777 PSU In-Reply-To: <53e388f21002250151y1d985cadld8704571672718ca@mail.gmail.com> from "Adrian Graham" at Feb 25, 10 09:51:15 am Message-ID: > other than a visual to check for obviously blown components of which there > appear to be none, certainly nothing that looks like it's let the magic > smoke out... > I think this supply ios a mains-side switcher. So check the chopper transsistor and mains rectifier diodes before you go too much further. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Feb 25 00:46:29 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2010 06:46:29 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Windows 1.0, Windows 2.0, Windows 3.0 In-Reply-To: from "Richard" at Feb 24, 10 05:30:58 pm Message-ID: > > Does anyone have these releases of Windows prior to Windows 3.1? I don't like ot admit it publically, bnt I have Windoes 1.x (for some x), but with a twist. It's not for an IBM compatible, it's for the HP150 (touchscreen PC). -tony From jplist2008 at kiwigeek.com Thu Feb 25 14:54:44 2010 From: jplist2008 at kiwigeek.com (JP Hindin) Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2010 14:54:44 -0600 (CST) Subject: TRS-80 bootable media request Message-ID: Greetings; I have a friend with an TRS80 Model III would is looking for some bootable media w/TRSDOS and, possibly if available, CP/M. I'm not familiar with the TRS80 line, and I don't own any, so I'm not in a position to help. If anyone has such a machine and can create up some disks for a nominal charge I would be very appreciative, replies probably should be off-list. Many thanks. - JP From legalize at xmission.com Thu Feb 25 14:56:29 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2010 13:56:29 -0700 Subject: VAX graphics In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 25 Feb 2010 12:05:19 +0100. <4B86596F.5000603@softjar.se> Message-ID: In article <4B86596F.5000603 at softjar.se>, Johnny Billquist writes: > Well, the E&S PS/340 also was a raster display system, as an add-on to > the PS/330. > See http://www.bmsc.washington.edu/people/merritt/graphics/ps330/ps330.html That's the first I've heard of that; it must have been an interim product before or contemporary with the 390. Very few early E&S systems survive and since they never sold in high numbers, its also hard to find people who used them. > I think it might very well be that which is shown on the video. I still doubt that. As I mentioned earlier, the PS series was higher performance than what we see in the video. Also, being a high-end system the monitors and tablets would have been labelled with the E&S brand and I don't see that in the video as I have seen on monitors, keyboards and tablets used for those systems. Now that I think about it, the lack of a keyboard is another giveaway that this is not an E&S system. A keyboard for the serial terminal is shown, but not one for the graphics system directly. The E&S PS series had integral keyboards and were full-blown terminals and not just a memory mapped frame buffer. For the black enclosure look, see these items at the CHM: PS 330: For a Picture System brochure, look here: CHM has a brochure for the PS 340 but its not online: Ditto PS 320, PS 330: > Raster operations are another issue. The video is showing a bitmapped > high resolution picture, and it obviously isn't too fast at loading > another high res picture. The video also shows some painting operations, particularly what would be called clone brush by most programs today. This is a raster op, albeit the simplest of raster ops -- copy. However, with a memory-mapped framebuffer, copy is easily implemented on the CPU and can be reasonable fast, certainly fast enough to keep up with the size of brush they were using in the video. Hardware rasterops become more important when you start running a windowing system and need to move around big chunks of screen as a common case (moving windows in response to the mouse). Bottom line for me is that this looks like a 3rd party memory-mapped framebuffer and not much more. That makes sense, because it would be the cheapest way to make graphics available at the time and if you aren't doing molecular modeling or manipulating complex CAD models, it isn't worth spending hundreds of thousands of dollars so you can doodle. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Feb 25 15:01:48 2010 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2010 15:01:48 -0600 Subject: VAX graphics In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201002252102.o1PL2Yku087528@billY.EZWIND.NET> At 02:56 PM 2/25/2010, Richard wrote: >That's the first I've heard of that; it must have been an interim >product before or contemporary with the 390. >Very few early E&S systems survive and since they never sold in high >numbers, its also hard to find people who used them. Did I miss the part of the discussion where anyone went to the YouTube uploader of this clip, and asked where it came from? - John From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Feb 25 11:38:48 2010 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2010 17:38:48 -0000 Subject: Semi-OT: vintage videogames made into films References: <4B849DF5.4010708@snarc.net> Message-ID: <000001cab65e$cbf60700$2b0b9f0a@user8459cef6fa> Not just 80's, but classic 50s, 60s and 70s films and TV programmes. And the occasional Japanese classic - Godzilla and The Ring. Godzilla wasn't a true Godzilla film and was much more like Jurassic Park with the Godzilla license. Just as long as they don't redo The Computer That Wore Tennis Shoes, War Games or Forbidden Planet. I'd hate to think what kind of robot they would use in place of Robbie The Robot *shudders* Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk ----- Original Message ----- From: "Zane H. Healy" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" ; Sent: Wednesday, February 24, 2010 3:37 AM Subject: Re: Semi-OT: vintage videogames made into films > At 10:33 PM -0500 2/23/10, Evan Koblentz wrote: > >http://videogames.yahoo.com/events/plugged-in/missile-command-movie-incomin g/1390235 > > > >"Missile Command" may become a feature film. > > Say it isn't so. My wife swears all these idiots can do is rip of > 80's culture, and that no one is making original movies. I'm > starting to think she's right. > > Zane > > > -- > | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | > | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | > | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | > +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ > | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | > | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | > | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Feb 25 15:10:54 2010 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2010 13:10:54 -0800 Subject: VAX graphics In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B86E75E.2070403@bitsavers.org> On 2/25/10 12:56 PM, Richard wrote: > Bottom line for me is that this looks like a 3rd party memory-mapped > framebuffer I'm not convinced. There was no sign of it in the machine room. I still think it is a raster terminal. The repaint speed is consistent with that. From dgahling at hotmail.com Thu Feb 25 15:13:05 2010 From: dgahling at hotmail.com (Dan Gahlinger) Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2010 16:13:05 -0500 Subject: Semi-OT: vintage videogames made into films In-Reply-To: <000001cab65e$cbf60700$2b0b9f0a@user8459cef6fa> References: <4B849DF5.4010708@snarc.net>, , <000001cab65e$cbf60700$2b0b9f0a@user8459cef6fa> Message-ID: war games has already been redone. it was awful. utterly horrible. Dan. > From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Semi-OT: vintage videogames made into films > Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2010 17:38:48 +0000 > > > Not just 80's, but classic 50s, 60s and 70s films and TV programmes. And the > occasional Japanese classic - Godzilla and The Ring. Godzilla wasn't a true > Godzilla film and was much more like Jurassic Park with the Godzilla > license. > Just as long as they don't redo The Computer That Wore Tennis Shoes, War > Games or Forbidden Planet. I'd hate to think what kind of robot they would > use in place of Robbie The Robot *shudders* > > > Regards, > Andrew B > aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Zane H. Healy" > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > ; > Sent: Wednesday, February 24, 2010 3:37 AM > Subject: Re: Semi-OT: vintage videogames made into films > > > > At 10:33 PM -0500 2/23/10, Evan Koblentz wrote: > > > >http://videogames.yahoo.com/events/plugged-in/missile-command-movie-incomin > g/1390235 > > > > > >"Missile Command" may become a feature film. > > > > Say it isn't so. My wife swears all these idiots can do is rip of > > 80's culture, and that no one is making original movies. I'm > > starting to think she's right. > > > > Zane > > > > > > -- > > | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | > > | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | > > | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | > > +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ > > | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | > > | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | > > | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | > _________________________________________________________________ From brianlanning at gmail.com Thu Feb 25 15:30:16 2010 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2010 15:30:16 -0600 Subject: toner cartridge vendor Message-ID: <6dbe3c381002251330h2e068d7h939585d82843bf55@mail.gmail.com> It looks like the toner cartridge is the source of the problems with my HP 4100. Somewhere between the $20 charged on ebay for crappy chinese cartridges and the extortionate prices charged for new ones by HP is a sane price/performance area. Can someone suggest a good vendor that charges good prices for toner cartridges that aren't junk? Thanks. brian From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Feb 25 15:46:03 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2010 13:46:03 -0800 (PST) Subject: TRS-80 bootable media request In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20100225133128.F35327@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 25 Feb 2010, JP Hindin wrote: > I have a friend with an TRS80 Model III would is looking for some bootable > media w/TRSDOS and, possibly if available, CP/M. I'm not familiar with the > TRS80 line, and I don't own any, so I'm not in a position to help. The TRS80 III, like the 1, had ROM in low memory. and therefore couldn't run any form of "normal" CP/M. FMG, and a few others, produced a relocated CP/M for model 1 and 3, but it never caught on, AT ALL. When you see mention of a TRS80 Model 1 or 3 CP/M, it normally means that the machine has a small but significant hardware mod to permit switching the memory map around. (That included Omicron, Parasitic Engineering (Howard Fullmer), Montezuma Micro, etc.) There were also hardware mods for the Expansion Interface to run 8" drives. Q: What is the official standard format for 5.25" disks for CP/M? Gary Kildall: 8" SSSD. RS sold "TRS-DOS for Model 3" 1.0,? 1.1?, 1.2, and 1.3, which were ported versions of Model 1 TRSDOS 2.x. DOSPLUS, NEWDOS, LDOS were also available from third parties. The Model 4 was very similar to the model 3, but had a CTRL key on the keyboard, and directly supported a CP/M compatible memory map. Radio Shack sold "CP/M PLUS" (CP/M 3.0) for it, as well as there being a number of after market 2.x ports. Eventually RS bought rights to LDOS, and released it as "TRSDOS 6.0" for Model 3 and 4, and Randy Cook finally started getting royalties! (The EARLIER history of TRSDOS and Randy Cook is much more interesting) For your model 3, you need "TRSDOS for Model 3 V1.3", and either DOSLUS, NEWDOS80, or LDOS. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Feb 25 15:47:05 2010 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2010 14:47:05 -0700 Subject: OT: white LEDs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B86EFD9.1010103@jetnet.ab.ca> Tony Duell wrote: >> meet for transmitter crystals or beg one. A 6v 150 ma pilot lamp >> would serve as an adquate plate current indicator. Coils could be >> easily hand-wound. > > You mean it's all changed now? :-( Yep... Crystal Sets are all high-tech, looking at a Regen-kit a few weeks back I got it is *still* cheap and low tech ( other than the 1T4 tubes). See the hi-tech coils here. http://makearadio.com/index.php > -tony The big thing it is not using a RF choke for regen, and I think that is the biggest problem.The other thing I think it could of had plug in-coil rather a fixed multi-tapped coil. Still parts are cheap, and I can rebuild the design on pine board with new ideas.I can take my time, since I have *No* AM stations out here. Ben. From jim at photojim.ca Thu Feb 25 15:47:19 2010 From: jim at photojim.ca (Jim MacKenzie) Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2010 15:47:19 -0600 Subject: toner cartridge vendor References: <6dbe3c381002251330h2e068d7h939585d82843bf55@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <674F4EB3D6F24DB28B2E119EEDB398C2@JIMM> Getting someone to refill your HP cartridges is probably the best bet. Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brian Lanning" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, February 25, 2010 3:30 PM Subject: toner cartridge vendor > It looks like the toner cartridge is the source of the problems with my HP > 4100. Somewhere between the $20 charged on ebay for crappy chinese > cartridges and the extortionate prices charged for new ones by HP is a > sane > price/performance area. From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Feb 25 15:53:44 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2010 13:53:44 -0800 (PST) Subject: Windows 1.00, Windows 2.00, Windows 3.00 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20100225135151.U35327@shell.lmi.net> Don't forget "Windows 286" From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Feb 25 15:53:46 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2010 16:53:46 -0500 Subject: TRS-80 bootable media request In-Reply-To: <20100225133128.F35327@shell.lmi.net> References: <20100225133128.F35327@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On 2/25/10, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Thu, 25 Feb 2010, JP Hindin wrote: >> I have a friend with an TRS80 Model III would is looking for some bootable >> media w/TRSDOS and, possibly if available, CP/M... > > The TRS80 III, like the 1, had ROM in low memory. and therefore couldn't > run any form of "normal" CP/M. FMG, and a few others, produced a > relocated CP/M for model 1 and 3, but it never caught on, AT ALL. Is that available anywhere now? I ask because I have a Model 1 w/dual external 3rd party drives and a Model III and I know more about CP/M than I do about TRSDOS. > When you see mention of a TRS80 Model 1 or 3 CP/M, it normally means that > the machine has a small but significant hardware mod to permit > switching the memory map around. (That included Omicron, Parasitic > Engineering (Howard Fullmer), Montezuma Micro, etc.) Is it a "difficult" mod? I.e., would it be worth rolling a modern one? > There were also hardware mods for the Expansion Interface to run 8" > drives. I'd guess those aren't too difficult to implement these days. I have a TM848 in the basement (installed in a Dataram PDP-11-compatible chassis) that might work nicely on that. > Q: What is the official standard format for 5.25" disks for CP/M? > Gary Kildall: 8" SSSD. Heh. I remember that quote when it was fresh. > The Model 4 was very similar to the model 3, but had a CTRL key on the > keyboard, and directly supported a CP/M compatible memory map. Interesting to know now. When I was in High School, we had one Model III and one Model 4 (plus a Wang programmable calc) for the "computer lab" (later, after I graduated, DEC donated/sold cheaply a room full of Rainbows). At the time, we were using TRSDOS and I really didn't see much difference between one computer vs the other. -ethan From brianlanning at gmail.com Thu Feb 25 16:00:29 2010 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2010 16:00:29 -0600 Subject: toner cartridge vendor In-Reply-To: <674F4EB3D6F24DB28B2E119EEDB398C2@JIMM> References: <6dbe3c381002251330h2e068d7h939585d82843bf55@mail.gmail.com> <674F4EB3D6F24DB28B2E119EEDB398C2@JIMM> Message-ID: <6dbe3c381002251400x61395eas1e050d6f4556281f@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, Feb 25, 2010 at 3:47 PM, Jim MacKenzie wrote: > Getting someone to refill your HP cartridges is probably the best bet. > To do that, I'd have to have an HP cartridge ro begin with. :-) brian From cclist at sydex.com Thu Feb 25 16:01:13 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2010 14:01:13 -0800 Subject: OT: white LEDs (was: Re: Solderless breadboarding (and 68010 vs In-Reply-To: References: <4B853135.28530.15B1380@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Feb 24, 10 02:01:25 pm, Message-ID: <4B8682A9.21748.10AEB2D@cclist.sydex.com> On 25 Feb 2010 at 6:22, Tony Duell wrote: > Presumavly you wanted the line output valve ('sweep tube'?) from the > latter to use as the transmitter PA. Oh, much more than that--the radio was the source of variable capacitors, but the TV was the treasure trove. A huge power transformer, rectifier (usually something like a 5U4), filter caps, horizontal output tube(s) (Some early sets used push-pull 6BG6s; later ones just ran the horizontal output tube to within an inch of its life. Plus ?a change...). The exciter could be a 6SJ7, from the video output stage. TV power transformers were very generous with filament windings and the high-voltage winding was usually something on the order of 450-0- 450, so a fullwave bridge could be used to furnish plate voltage for something much larger than the run-of-the-mill novice rig. Indeed, there were hams who rewound TV transformers for high-power final supplies. Life in the trash heap was good... --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Thu Feb 25 16:04:58 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2010 14:04:58 -0800 Subject: OT: white LEDs In-Reply-To: <4B86EFD9.1010103@jetnet.ab.ca> References: , <4B86EFD9.1010103@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4B86838A.32411.10E5D51@cclist.sydex.com> On 25 Feb 2010 at 14:47, Ben wrote: > The big thing it is not using a RF choke for regen, and I think > that is the biggest problem.The other thing I think it could > of had plug in-coil rather a fixed multi-tapped coil. Still parts are > cheap, and I can rebuild the design on pine board with new ideas.I can > take my time, since I have *No* AM stations out here. Good grief, where do you live? There are days when I think I hear Rush Limbaugh coming in through the fillings in my teeth. But I can *see* the local transmitter antenna farm two ridges over. It doesn't improve the programming quality, however. --Chuck From jplist2008 at kiwigeek.com Thu Feb 25 16:05:31 2010 From: jplist2008 at kiwigeek.com (JP Hindin) Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2010 16:05:31 -0600 (CST) Subject: TRS-80 bootable media request In-Reply-To: <20100225133128.F35327@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 25 Feb 2010, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Thu, 25 Feb 2010, JP Hindin wrote: > > I have a friend with an TRS80 Model III would is looking for some bootable > > media w/TRSDOS and, possibly if available, CP/M. I'm not familiar with the > > TRS80 line, and I don't own any, so I'm not in a position to help. > > The TRS80 III, like the 1, had ROM in low memory. and therefore couldn't > run any form of "normal" CP/M. FMG, and a few others, produced a > relocated CP/M for model 1 and 3, but it never caught on, AT ALL. > For your model 3, you need "TRSDOS for Model 3 V1.3", and either DOSLUS, > NEWDOS80, or LDOS. Thank you, Fred. As I said, I'm pretty vague on the TRS80s - never had one, but I appreciate the information. So, I guess, is anyone able to provide bootable 5.25" media with any of the above OS'? :) Thanks; - JP From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Feb 25 16:18:28 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2010 14:18:28 -0800 (PST) Subject: TRS-80 bootable media request In-Reply-To: References: <20100225133128.F35327@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20100225141054.R35327@shell.lmi.net> > > The TRS80 III, like the 1, had ROM in low memory. and therefore couldn't > > run any form of "normal" CP/M. FMG, and a few others, produced a > > relocated CP/M for model 1 and 3, but it never caught on, AT ALL. On Thu, 25 Feb 2010, Ethan Dicks wrote: > Is that available anywhere now? I ask because I have a Model 1 w/dual > external 3rd party drives and a Model III and I know more about CP/M > than I do about TRSDOS. I gave away my last handful of copies of it at VCF years ago. It was CP/M 1.4? I don't think that it was any good for running any commercial CP/M software. > > When you see mention of a TRS80 Model 1 or 3 CP/M, it normally means that > > the machine has a small but significant hardware mod to permit > > switching the memory map around. (That included Omicron, Parasitic > > Engineering (Howard Fullmer), Montezuma Micro, etc.) > Is it a "difficult" mod? I.e., would it be worth rolling a modern one? A sandwich board under the Z80, with a few chips. Could probably be done simpler if you're willing to cut traces on the Model 1 board. But, I do NOT know the details of them. However, Eric Smith got both my Parasitic modified 1 and my Omicron modified 1 10 years ago. The Omicron one is recognizable by an extra pigtail connection between the CPU sandwich and the FDC sandwich. > > There were also hardware mods for the Expansion Interface to run 8" > > drives. > I'd guess those aren't too difficult to implement these days. I have > a TM848 in the basement (installed in a Dataram PDP-11-compatible > chassis) that might work nicely on that. It was a sandwich under the FDC, not to be confused with the Percom Data Separator sandwich, nor the Percom Doubler sandwich. > > Q: What is the official standard format for 5.25" disks for CP/M? > > Gary Kildall: 8" SSSD. > Heh. I remember that quote when it was fresh. He got asked that A LOT. When the Apple/Microsoft z80 softcard came out, I asked him, and got the same identical response. > Interesting to know now. When I was in High School, we had one Model > III and one Model 4 (plus a Wang programmable calc) for the "computer > lab" (later, after I graduated, DEC donated/sold cheaply a room full > of Rainbows). At the time, we were using TRSDOS and I really didn't > see much difference between one computer vs the other. When running TRSDOS, they were virtually indistinguishable, unless you got down deep enough into it to go after the additional RAM. From legalize at xmission.com Thu Feb 25 16:34:57 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2010 15:34:57 -0700 Subject: VAX graphics In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 25 Feb 2010 13:10:54 -0800. <4B86E75E.2070403@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: In article <4B86E75E.2070403 at bitsavers.org>, Al Kossow writes: > On 2/25/10 12:56 PM, Richard wrote: > > > Bottom line for me is that this looks like a 3rd party memory-mapped > > framebuffer > > I'm not convinced. There was no sign of it in the machine room. I don't know what machine room presence it would have other than some boards inserted into the backplane. E&S equipment had its own cabinet because it had a "GPU". Memory mapped frame buffers aren't much more than array of memory chips and a simple video scanout circuit. You can easily fit all of that onto one or two PDP-11 or VAX boards without requiring an additional cabinet, even with SSI/MSI parts. In 1984 I was an undergrad helping a grad student with his hardware project for his PhD. I wirewrapped what was then considered a high density layout for a graphics system with lots of smarts. A memory array, a bus interface, and a video scanout circuit are all fairly straightforward to implement with period parts in a board or two. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From cclist at sydex.com Thu Feb 25 16:35:25 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2010 14:35:25 -0800 Subject: OT: Old SAC film Message-ID: <4B868AAD.31122.12A3B69@cclist.sydex.com> Since "Wargames" wa mentioned, I thought I'd post this link to an old PR film from the Strategic Air Command. Only a brief shot of computing gear on reel 1, but lots of teleprinters, teletypes and comm consoles. About 18 minutes long. The first two of three reels are of high quality; for some reason, the third one is not. http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/nukevault/ebb304/film03.htm Cheers, Chuck From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Feb 25 16:37:53 2010 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2010 15:37:53 -0700 Subject: OT: white LEDs In-Reply-To: <4B86838A.32411.10E5D51@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4B86EFD9.1010103@jetnet.ab.ca> <4B86838A.32411.10E5D51@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4B86FBC1.8020608@jetnet.ab.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 25 Feb 2010 at 14:47, Ben wrote: > >> The big thing it is not using a RF choke for regen, and I think >> that is the biggest problem.The other thing I think it could >> of had plug in-coil rather a fixed multi-tapped coil. Still parts are >> cheap, and I can rebuild the design on pine board with new ideas.I can >> take my time, since I have *No* AM stations out here. > > Good grief, where do you live? There are days when I think I hear > Rush Limbaugh coming in through the fillings in my teeth. But I can > *see* the local transmitter antenna farm two ridges over. Cold Lake, Alberta. About 200 km ( line of sight ) from the nearest large city. > It doesn't improve the programming quality, however. Well would talk radio, improve the the tooth reception. :) I tend to agree, AM radio has gone downhill, and FM now being commercial has mostly *loud* something. Ben. > --Chuck > BTW. I remember Giligains(sp) Island had a episode about a filling being a radio. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Feb 25 16:39:48 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2010 17:39:48 -0500 Subject: TRS-80 bootable media request In-Reply-To: <20100225141054.R35327@shell.lmi.net> References: <20100225133128.F35327@shell.lmi.net> <20100225141054.R35327@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On 2/25/10, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Thu, 25 Feb 2010, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> Is that available anywhere now? > > I gave away my last handful of copies of it at VCF years ago. It was CP/M > 1.4? > I don't think that it was any good for running any commercial CP/M > software. So if I understand this right, you'd have to recompile any application source specifically _for_ this environment? >> Is it a "difficult" mod? I.e., would it be worth rolling a modern one? > > A sandwich board under the Z80, with a few chips. Could probably be done > simpler if you're willing to cut traces on the Model 1 board. > But, I do NOT know the details of them. OK. >> > There were also hardware mods for the Expansion Interface to run 8" >> > drives. >> I'd guess those aren't too difficult to implement these days. > > It was a sandwich under the FDC, not to be confused with the Percom Data > Separator sandwich, nor the Percom Doubler sandwich. I think my Model I expansion chassis has some form of density doubler sandwich (and a serial port mod, too). >> Interesting to know now. When I was in High School, we had one Model >> III and one Model 4... > > When running TRSDOS, they were virtually indistinguishable, unless you got > down deep enough into it to go after the additional RAM. That would be why I never noticed the difference - for that "class", I stuck to BASIC (I was doing assembly on my C-64 at home, but not at school). Thanks for the informative responses. I'll probably just stick with some flavor of TRSDOS on the Tandy hardware and jump over to a Kaypro or S-100 box for CP/M. -ethan From arcarlini at iee.org Thu Feb 25 16:40:20 2010 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2010 22:40:20 -0000 Subject: OT: white LEDs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Tony Duell [ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk] wrote: > OK, I can't grind lenses, Oh please! Herschel managed in the late 1700s so I don't see what possible excuse you can have :-) Antonio From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Feb 25 17:03:42 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2010 15:03:42 -0800 (PST) Subject: TRS-80 bootable media request In-Reply-To: References: <20100225133128.F35327@shell.lmi.net> <20100225141054.R35327@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20100225144140.T40222@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 25 Feb 2010, Ethan Dicks wrote: > So if I understand this right, you'd have to recompile any application > source specifically _for_ this environment? that kinda takes away the benefits of CP/M > I think my Model I expansion chassis has some form of density doubler > sandwich (and a serial port mod, too). The serial port was an accessory board, not a mod, with its own dedicated compartment and connectors. There were, of course, numerous mods to the "RS232" ("stands for Radio Shack 232"!) board to try to improve it's contact with it's connector. There was also some misinformation before the serial port was released, that that was a general purpose "expansion port for things such as S100 interface" > >> Interesting to know now. When I was in High School, we had one Model > That would be why I never noticed the difference - for that "class", I > stuck to BASIC (I was doing assembly on my C-64 at home, but not at > school). For machine language on TRS80, look at TBUG, and Allen Gelder's enhancements thereto. For assembly, look at Roy Soltoff's assembler For disk sector work, look at Superzap from NEWDOS80. For disk viewing below the sector level, look at Roxton Baker's? TRAKCESS. For disk format conversion, look at Mike Gingel's programs For spreadsheets: VISICALC (avail from RS) For wordprocessing, Michael Shrayer's ELECTRIC PENCIL and RS's SCRIPSIT > Thanks for the informative responses. I'll probably just stick with > some flavor of TRSDOS on the Tandy hardware and jump over to a Kaypro > or S-100 box for CP/M. A good decision. But you should also try out the various premium TRSDOS derivatives (NEWDOS80, LDOS, DOSPLUS), particularly since the model 3 and 4 FDC can NOT create a disk with the DAMs that model 1 TRSDOS (2.0 - 2.3) is happy with, so all model 1 users should upgrade their OS. From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Thu Feb 25 17:20:46 2010 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2010 18:20:46 -0500 (EST) Subject: TRS-80 bootable media request In-Reply-To: <20100225144140.T40222@shell.lmi.net> References: <20100225133128.F35327@shell.lmi.net> <20100225141054.R35327@shell.lmi.net> <20100225144140.T40222@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 25 Feb 2010, Fred Cisin wrote: > For machine language on TRS80, look at TBUG, and Allen Gelder's > enhancements thereto. > For assembly, look at Roy Soltoff's assembler > For disk sector work, look at Superzap from NEWDOS80. > For disk viewing below the sector level, look at Roxton Baker's? TRAKCESS. > For disk format conversion, look at Mike Gingel's programs > For spreadsheets: VISICALC (avail from RS) > For wordprocessing, Michael Shrayer's ELECTRIC PENCIL and RS's SCRIPSIT Some recommemded books: "Machine Language Disk I/O & Other Mysteries", by Michael J. Wagner. "TRS-80 Model III Assembly Language", by Hubert S. Howe, Jr "More TRS-80 Assembly Language Programming", by Bill Barden "The Custom TRS-80 & Other Mysteries" by Dennis Bathory-Kitsz Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Feb 25 17:37:56 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2010 15:37:56 -0800 (PST) Subject: TRS-80 bootable media request In-Reply-To: References: <20100225133128.F35327@shell.lmi.net> <20100225141054.R35327@shell.lmi.net> <20100225144140.T40222@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20100225153012.S40222@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 25 Feb 2010, Mike Loewen wrote: > Some recommemded books: > "Machine Language Disk I/O & Other Mysteries", by Michael J. Wagner. > "TRS-80 Model III Assembly Language", by Hubert S. Howe, Jr > "More TRS-80 Assembly Language Programming", by Bill Barden > "The Custom TRS-80 & Other Mysteries" by Dennis Bathory-Kitsz TRS80 Disk and other mysteries, by Harv Pennington (first one in series, and describes the model 1 disk format (directory entries are lists of block numbers and length, plus TWO passwords per entry, a hash table for improving lookup speed, block map, and strange choices of data address marks, etc.) Barden also did a short (pamphlet?) on disk I/O and working with the FDC and he put out several pocket reference cards The Radio Shack "Service"? manuals were fairly good. From halarewich at gmail.com Thu Feb 25 19:57:15 2010 From: halarewich at gmail.com (Chris Halarewich) Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2010 17:57:15 -0800 Subject: toner cartridge vendor In-Reply-To: <6dbe3c381002251400x61395eas1e050d6f4556281f@mail.gmail.com> References: <6dbe3c381002251330h2e068d7h939585d82843bf55@mail.gmail.com> <674F4EB3D6F24DB28B2E119EEDB398C2@JIMM> <6dbe3c381002251400x61395eas1e050d6f4556281f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6d6501091002251757k6e97a733tb050cb73f8c55966@mail.gmail.com> doing some digging here is the cheapest place i could find for real hp 4100 carts high yeild 10000 pages new not reman or refurb hope it helps i do not know the seller http://www.supplydepot.com/amazing/itemdesc.asp?ic=HEWC8061X-XEROX On 2/25/10, Brian Lanning wrote: > > On Thu, Feb 25, 2010 at 3:47 PM, Jim MacKenzie wrote: > > > Getting someone to refill your HP cartridges is probably the best bet. > > > To do that, I'd have to have an HP cartridge ro begin with. :-) > > brian > From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Feb 25 21:38:24 2010 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2010 22:38:24 -0500 Subject: Soldering (Was: Re: HP-IB, Amigo/cs80 ... ) In-Reply-To: <2820e7c8a368f747dd27ba1f20bdccc3.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com> References: <2820e7c8a368f747dd27ba1f20bdccc3.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com> Message-ID: <4B874230.90609@gmail.com> Jeff Walther wrote: > Some of the best advice I got in college was from an EE professor who told > us, "If you drop your soldering iron, don't try to catch it on the way > down. Just let it go." I don't try to catch any dropped tools. Even if they're expensive. Losing a hand just isn't worth it. Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Feb 25 21:46:52 2010 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2010 22:46:52 -0500 Subject: Soldering (Was: Re: HP-IB, Amigo/cs80 ... ) In-Reply-To: <4B7F0003.3070606@verizon.net> References: <4B7F0003.3070606@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4B87442C.1040305@gmail.com> Keith wrote: > This is a pretty cool design for table saws: > > http://www.sawstop.com/ > > "We're passionate about preventing saw accidents. > That?s why SawStop? saws are equipped with a safety > system to stop the blade within 5 milliseconds of > detecting contact with skin." > > The owner/inventor put his finger in a moving table saw blade to prove > it works. It's pretty neat. It's an impressive video demonstration they have on their front page, there. Peace... Sridhar From cclist at sydex.com Thu Feb 25 22:09:51 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2010 20:09:51 -0800 Subject: Soldering (Was: Re: HP-IB, Amigo/cs80 ... ) In-Reply-To: <4B874230.90609@gmail.com> References: , <2820e7c8a368f747dd27ba1f20bdccc3.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com>, <4B874230.90609@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B86D90F.21400.25C6CAA@cclist.sydex.com> On 25 Feb 2010 at 22:38, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > I don't try to catch any dropped tools. Even if they're expensive. > Losing a hand just isn't worth it. That's probably Rule Number One when learning to juggle running chainsaws.... Another good practice is to step back immediately when you lose your grip on a sharp or heavy tool. Burned or bleeding feet and missing toes aren't much fun. --Chuck From geoffr at zipcon.net Thu Feb 25 22:27:20 2010 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoffrey Reed) Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2010 20:27:20 -0800 Subject: Windows 1.0, Windows 2.0, Windows 3.0 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 2/25/10 7:24 AM, "Zane H. Healy" wrote: > At 10:53 PM -0700 2/24/10, Richard wrote: >> In article , >> "Zane H. Healy" writes: >> >>> I have a sealed copy of Windows 1 (might actually be 1.01, IIRC). >> >> How'd you come by it? > > I got it from that place which all things Windows belong. ;-) A > Garbage Can. :-) I kept it since it's v1. Actually truth be told I > have most releases up through XP Pro. > > The first version I touched professionally was v2. I've never had > the misfortune of using Vista or Windows 7, though I'm using Server > 2k8 and will probably have to start using Windows 7 soon. > > Zane > I'm using Win7 instead of Vista where I have a system that supports it. I hated vista. win7 seems far peppier than vista was. From jthecman at netscape.net Thu Feb 25 22:36:41 2010 From: jthecman at netscape.net (jthecman at netscape.net) Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2010 23:36:41 -0500 Subject: Windows 1.0, Windows 2.0, Windows 3.0 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8CC84B46D04317C-79CC-8DF2@webmail-d041.sysops.aol.com> I have all three plus win 286. With win 1.01 I have 3 copies, one is new and unopen with the other two being used but complete.. -----Original Message----- From: Richard To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Sent: Wed, Feb 24, 2010 6:30 pm Subject: Windows 1.0, Windows 2.0, Windows 3.0 Does anyone have these releases of Windows prior to Windows 3.1? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From mtapley at swri.edu Thu Feb 25 23:22:39 2010 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2010 23:22:39 -0600 Subject: Barden programming books (was: Re: TRS-80 bootable media request) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 17:20 -0600 2/25/10, Mike L. wrote: >"More TRS-80 Assembly Language Programming", by Bill Barden A comment and a question: I found on eBay the CoCo Assembly book by the same author. It's clear, an enjoyable read, and does a good job of introducing programming, the debugger/assembler implemented on the cartridge, and 6809 assembly language in a simple, easy-to-understand progression. However, it seems to me to give really short shrift to what the 6809 designers considered to be very important features of the processor. Position independent code is barely touched on, there are a lot of what looks to me like kludgy programming techniques, the most advanced software-management tool discussed is a flowchart (and then there's no useful example of how to use them), the multiple pointer registers are abused as 16-bit counters rather than as indexing pointers, and there are many similar examples. Does anybody else have the same take on this? I was thinking about using it to teach programming to one or more of the kids, but it seems to me that I'd rather find something a bit more structure-oriented, and less likely to use "tricks". Am I just spoiled from having read the 6809 programmer's guide and the (somewhat snooty-sounding) Byte article on 6809 design and introduction? -- - Mark 210-379-4635 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Large Asteroids headed toward planets inhabited by beings that don't have technology adequate to stop them: Think of it as Evolution in Fast-Forward. From dkelvey at hotmail.com Thu Feb 25 23:38:46 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2010 21:38:46 -0800 Subject: Nicolet DSO In-Reply-To: <4B86B230.A3816DBB@cs.ubc.ca> References: <17641.39335.qm@web110403.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>, , ,,,,, , ,,,,<4B759AF5.3080709@garlic.com>, , , , , <4B7538D3.20133.94F368@cclist.sydex.com>, , , , , , , , <4B78AFAE.C358B310@cs.ubc.ca>, ,,, ,,<4B78CA0E.D5156AEC@cs.ubc.ca>, <4B85E05B.12716592@cs.ubc.ca>, , , , <4B862434.4C458A54@cs.ubc.ca>, , <4B86B230.A3816DBB@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: > From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca > > dwight elvey wrote: > > > From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca > > > I think they're were some PROM's in there, so it may be a programmed state > > > machine, but probably not much memory available considering everything else it > > > is doing. > > > > The PROMs are for the 2901s. These do the things like the subtraction, inversion, > > autocenter and run the display. Things like the digital numbers at the bottom > > of the screen are all created by the 2901s. Remember, as a DSO, the data > > is sampled and then put into the RAM. The 2901s then determine what > > to do with that data on the screen. The PROMs have the instructions for > > the 2901s to use. > > Yes, this is what I was guessing. Did you get the manual with yours? > > I should go back and open up the 1090, the model from 6 or so years earlier, > IIRC it had an 8080 in there, don't remember if there were any 2901's. Hi I'm not sure if a 8080 could keep up with what the 2901s do. I have an 1174 averager that also uses 2901s. I think the fellows at Nicolet liked them. I have an original copy of the service manual and a copy of the instruction manual. Each of the 2 cost as much as the scope cost me but it isn't as much as some of the charges I've seen on the web. I fixed the capacitors before I got the manuals but I wanted to be able to deal with calibration as well as have the GPIB instruction. I have these now. dwight _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail: Trusted email with powerful SPAM protection. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/201469227/direct/01/ From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Feb 26 00:55:32 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2010 01:55:32 -0500 Subject: Barden programming books (was: Re: TRS-80 bootable media request) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 2/26/10, Mark Tapley wrote: > At 17:20 -0600 2/25/10, Mike L. wrote: >>"More TRS-80 Assembly Language Programming", by Bill Barden > > A comment and a question: I found on eBay the CoCo Assembly > book by the same author. It's clear, an enjoyable read, and does a > good job of introducing programming, the debugger/assembler > implemented on the cartridge, and 6809 assembly language in a simple, > easy-to-understand progression. I may have to keep my eyes out for that one. I'm much less informed about the 6809 than any of the other contemporary processors. > However, it seems to me to give really short shrift to what > the 6809 designers considered to be very important features of the > processor. Position independent code is barely touched on, there are > a lot of what looks to me like kludgy programming techniques, the > most advanced software-management tool discussed is a flowchart (and > then there's no useful example of how to use them), the multiple > pointer registers are abused as 16-bit counters rather than as > indexing pointers, and there are many similar examples. Hmm... I haven't read anything by Barden, so I'm merely commenting on your comments, but I do remember that back in the day, besides a "better" register scheme, the one thing that really made the 6809 stand out (from my 6502 world) was its ability to render position-independent code. I didn't need it often when I was programming the 6502 daily, but occasionally, I did wish for it. Perhaps the lack of attention to that in the book is due to a lack of perceived utility for it? When the 6502 and Z80 and 6809 ruled the earth (or at least the hobbyist corner of it), multitasking operating systems weren't the norm. I know OS/9 stands out, but until you jump up to early UNIX super-micros, there's not much else in the field that was commonly available (the PDP-8 had RTS-8, but compared to a basic OS/8 setup, RTS/8 was strange and rare). The vast majority of micros had "operating systems" (by a very wide definition) with fixed-position memory maps. There was little need to be able to shuffle your code from one spot in memory to another. Even on larger systems, like the PDP-11, MMU hardware did that sort of mapping for you (despite the fact that PIC is easy to write for the -11). As for the lack of "advanced software-management tool[s]", most of the books that I've read from the late 1970s and early 1980s fall into that category. I don't think I learned anything "better" than flowcharts and coding sheets until I hit the minicomputer world in the mid-1980s (it sure wasn't any different when I took my first programming course in college in 1984 - flowcharts were a mandatory part of the homework and were graded quite rigorously). > Does anybody else have the same take on this? I was thinking > about using it to teach programming to one or more of the kids, but > it seems to me that I'd rather find something a bit more > structure-oriented, and less likely to use "tricks". By the late 1980s, I remember a change in the weather with articles in Amiga-centric magazines on programming the 68000. See if you can find Transactor magazines (or PDFs of them). Those might be "modern" enough in their approach to feel more friendly. The instruction set's not the same, but code organization and concepts are analogous. > Am I just spoiled from having read the 6809 programmer's > guide and the (somewhat snooty-sounding) Byte article on 6809 design > and introduction? Perhaps. With 1970s docs, my feeling of remembering those days is that 8080 and Z80 tutorials and guides were "stiffer" than 6502-related material, but I'll easily admit those memories are somewhat biased because I spent lots more time seeking out and reading 6502 publications in depth. The 6809 stuff, though, kinda went by unexplored by me since I had no hardware to tie to it. -ethan From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Fri Feb 26 01:53:50 2010 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2010 23:53:50 -0800 Subject: flowcharts and teaching programming / was Re: Barden programming books References: Message-ID: <4B877E0E.7C53A71B@cs.ubc.ca> Ethan Dicks wrote: > > As for the lack of "advanced software-management tool[s]", most of the > books that I've read from the late 1970s and early 1980s fall into > that category. I don't think I learned anything "better" than > flowcharts and coding sheets until I hit the minicomputer world in the > mid-1980s (it sure wasn't any different when I took my first > programming course in college in 1984 - flowcharts were a mandatory > part of the homework and were graded quite rigorously). Funny, I had a rather contrary experience. I'm looking here at a flowchart I submitted as documenting material with a programming exercise in 1st-year university in the late-70's. It was returned to me with the teaching assistant having written on it: "Ssssss. Let this be the last time. Excellent (except the flowchart) 10/10" At the time, flowcharts were being deprecated in favor of "nested-block diagrams" (for lack of any better description) to instil structured programming concepts. Flowcharts had been deemed to be at odds with this. I had figured the structure and limited complexity of the particular program was suitably described by a flowchart. So much for judgement in choosing the appropriate tool. While I didn't see flowcharts much in the years after, I never saw a "nested-block diagram" in real-world use. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Feb 26 02:36:12 2010 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2010 01:36:12 -0700 Subject: flowcharts and teaching programming / was Re: Barden programming books In-Reply-To: <4B877E0E.7C53A71B@cs.ubc.ca> References: <4B877E0E.7C53A71B@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <4B8787FC.9010304@jetnet.ab.ca> Brent Hilpert wrote: > At the time, flowcharts were being deprecated in favor of "nested-block > diagrams" (for lack of any better description) to instil structured programming > concepts. Flowcharts had been deemed to be at odds with this. I had figured the > structure and limited complexity of the particular program was suitably > described by a flowchart. So much for judgement in choosing the appropriate tool. Be happy that INTERCAL is not your first programing language. > While I didn't see flowcharts much in the years after, I never saw a > "nested-block diagram" in real-world use. Just what is nested block diagram? I have yet to figure out the advantage of nested block programs like pascal. You go down a few dozen levels - Oh crap I'm out of data space - abort! You need that odd goto or unclean data structure now and then! Some times you need static variables just to know -- will I fit in memory on a realistic machine or have realistic run time? Ben. From dave09 at dunfield.com Fri Feb 26 07:25:55 2010 From: dave09 at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2010 08:25:55 -0500 Subject: TRS-80 bootable media request In-Reply-To: References: <20100225133128.F35327@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <55985A700E4A@dunfield.com> > So, I guess, is anyone able to provide bootable 5.25" media with any of > the above OS'? :) Have some TRS-80 Model III OS disks in the SystemDisk collection at: www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.htm Look for "Download software/images" near the end of the main page. You will however have to make the disks yourself - the tools are all there. Dave -- dave09 (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Classic Computers: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/ From klake at chartermi.net Fri Feb 26 07:45:50 2010 From: klake at chartermi.net (Kim J. Lake) Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2010 08:45:50 -0500 Subject: TRS-80 bootable media request Message-ID: Just about anything TRS-80 related can be had or learned via these sites! I hope this helps. I've still got a half-dz Mod 4/4D's, about that many Mod III's, a couple Mod 4P's, and a few Mod I's (not to mention Mod II's, Mod 12's, Mod 16's, and probably at least one of each variation of the 26-variations of the Tandy 1000, a Tandy 1200, and a Tandy 3000). http://cn80.blogspot.com/ http://www.tim-mann.org/misosys.html http://manmrk.net/tutorials/TRS80/trs80links.html I used to be very active in the community, but with business demanding more and more of my attention, I fell away from it so much so that I wasn't even aware (though unsurprised) that Stan Slater had passed last August, and with him his CN80 News and his CN80 store on ebay. RIP Stan! >Greetings; > >I have a friend with an TRS80 Model III would is looking for some bootable >media w/TRSDOS and, possibly if available, CP/M. I'm not familiar with the >TRS80 line, and I don't own any, so I'm not in a position to help. > >If anyone has such a machine and can create up some disks for a nominal >charge I would be very appreciative, replies probably should be off-list. > >Many thanks. > > - JP Kim J. Lake From bqt at softjar.se Thu Feb 25 18:32:36 2010 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2010 01:32:36 +0100 Subject: VAX graphics In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B8716A4.3050606@softjar.se> Al Kossow wrote: > On 2/25/10 12:56 PM, Richard wrote: > >> > Bottom line for me is that this looks like a 3rd party memory-mapped >> > framebuffer > > I'm not convinced. There was no sign of it in the machine room. There is nothing visible in the machine room for a graphic subsystem. It's all in the Unibus box, with just a couple of cables coming out. > I still think it is a raster terminal. The repaint speed is consistent > with that. I'd definitely say no to that. I was working at DEC in 1986. At that time, the VT241 was the hottest thing DEC had, and it could do bitmapped graphics. But let me tell you how long it took to just get a picture uploaded on that terminal, and then we are talking much lower resolution, and fewer bitplanes. Admittedly, the DEC sixel graphics format wasn't the most efficient, but you at least transferred 6 bits of graphic data for each byte, giving it a 75% efficiency. You would have had to wait almost forever to get a picture like in the video over a serial line at 9600 bps, or even 19200. And once again, no faster serial interfaces were available on a Unibus machine. (Nor did any terminals appear to go that much faster either.) Just make a small calculation. Let's assume a resolution of 640x480, with just 8 bits per pixel. That would mean approximately 300Kbyte of data to transfer. At 19200 bps, that would take 160 seconds to draw one picture. (Assuming all bits were actual data, and no overhead.) Almost 3 minutes... This is easy math, if people just try it. :-) And I dare say, that picture have higher resolution, and more depth than my simple calculation above used. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From BMcElroy at dmai.com Fri Feb 26 10:43:13 2010 From: BMcElroy at dmai.com (Brian McElroy) Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2010 11:43:13 -0500 Subject: Exxon Qyx Typewriter thingy Message-ID: <528C9C673CA9BB4891BE0FAC990A3BC3012A5948F2@DMAI-SBS08.DMAI.local> My Dad worked on these (mechanical designer designing jigs and fixtures for assembly) at QYX in Lionville, PA in the late 70's There claim to fame was that you could type a letter and then have another one type the same thing over the phone lines as an original document....all pre facsimile machine. It is said that the technology was stolen to help create the fax machine. They did have a FBI Investigation for items stolen from trash bins. Brian McElroy Project Manager DAVID MILLER/ASSOCIATES, INC. 1076 Centerville Road, Lancaster, PA 17601 Phone (717) 898-3402 ext. 41 or Toll Free (877) 516-3740 Fax: (717) 898-9365 Visit our website at www.dmai.com CONFIDENTIAL MATERIAL: This message is intended only for the use of recipient to which it is addressed and may contain information that is privileged, confidential, and exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If received in error, please notify the sender by return e-mail and destroy all copies of the original transmission and any attachments. Thank You. From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Fri Feb 26 11:38:46 2010 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2010 09:38:46 -0800 Subject: flowcharts and teaching programming / was Re: Barden programmingbooks References: <4B877E0E.7C53A71B@cs.ubc.ca> <4B8787FC.9010304@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4B880727.A5319A4D@cs.ubc.ca> Ben wrote: > > Brent Hilpert wrote: > > > At the time, flowcharts were being deprecated in favor of "nested-block > > diagrams" (for lack of any better description) to instil structured programming > > concepts. Flowcharts had been deemed to be at odds with this. I had figured the > > structure and limited complexity of the particular program was suitably > > described by a flowchart. So much for judgement in choosing the appropriate tool. > > Be happy that INTERCAL is not your first programing language. > > > While I didn't see flowcharts much in the years after, I never saw a > > "nested-block diagram" in real-world use. > > Just what is nested block diagram? Amending my own description, "nested-box diagram" might be better. I wish I could scan one of my old ones here. Basically it's a bunch of nested boxes representing the block structure of the program. Primary flow is down, if-else, for example, is two boxes side-by-side within another box with the condition at the top. Or one might describe it as a bunch of boxes drawn around block-structured code, with some rules for how the boxes are nested and associated. Very limited as the boxes quickly get too small as the nesting increases, worse than when you actually write the program as you mention next. > I have yet to figure out the advantage of nested block programs > like pascal. You go down a few dozen levels - Oh crap I'm out > of data space - abort! Curiously, the exercise for which I was chastised for using a flowchart, was written (by mandate) in FORTRAN. However, the nested-box diagrams which we were expected to use had been introduced earlier in the course with, indeed, the teaching of Pascal. > You need that odd goto or unclean data > structure now and then! Some times you need static variables > just to know -- will I fit in memory on a realistic machine > or have realistic run time? When I was writing lots of C code in the 80's, I used goto's quite regularly (I can hear the shrieks! and gasps! and jaws hitting the floor out there, or perhaps not from this audience). I used them in a very obvious and formalised manner however, for error handling and resource recovery/cleanup from nested depths. It was much more understandable, reliable, elegant, and efficient than multiple additional conditional clauses and variable tests which would have obscured the primary algorithm and flow of the code. From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Feb 26 11:46:08 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2010 12:46:08 -0500 Subject: flowcharts and teaching programming / was Re: Barden programmingbooks In-Reply-To: <4B880727.A5319A4D@cs.ubc.ca> References: <4B877E0E.7C53A71B@cs.ubc.ca> <4B8787FC.9010304@jetnet.ab.ca> <4B880727.A5319A4D@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: On Feb 26, 2010, at 12:38 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > When I was writing lots of C code in the 80's, I used goto's quite > regularly (I > can hear the shrieks! and gasps! and jaws hitting the floor out > there, or > perhaps not from this audience). SHRIEK! GASP! [jaw hits floor] -Dave > -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cclist at sydex.com Fri Feb 26 12:00:45 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2010 10:00:45 -0800 Subject: Exxon Qyx Typewriter thingy In-Reply-To: <528C9C673CA9BB4891BE0FAC990A3BC3012A5948F2@DMAI-SBS08.DMAI.local> References: <528C9C673CA9BB4891BE0FAC990A3BC3012A5948F2@DMAI-SBS08.DMAI.local> Message-ID: <4B879BCD.18932.2D45E7@cclist.sydex.com> On 26 Feb 2010 at 11:43, Brian McElroy wrote: > My Dad worked on these (mechanical designer designing jigs and > fixtures for assembly) at QYX in Lionville, PA in the late 70's > > There claim to fame was that you could type a letter and then have > another one type the same thing over the phone lines as an original > document....all pre facsimile machine. > > It is said that the technology was stolen to help create the fax > machine. I thought it was the Exxon Qwip that was the prototype for the modern FAX machine. I can remember the spinning-drum types from much earlier. One related item that was deployed all around the steel mill where I worked was the Telautograph--basically a machine that duplicated pen movements on a piece of paper via a couple of drive motors and a pantograph. You scribbled your tracking information for a batch; it was immediately duplicated in a number of places, such as the quality lab, the main office and other lines. The paper was fed from a roll. I haven't seen one of those in many many years, but there must still be some in existence somewhere. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Fri Feb 26 12:03:08 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2010 10:03:08 -0800 Subject: flowcharts and teaching programming / was Re: Barden programmingbooks In-Reply-To: References: , <4B880727.A5319A4D@cs.ubc.ca>, Message-ID: <4B879C5C.27291.2F7385@cclist.sydex.com> On 26 Feb 2010 at 12:46, Dave McGuire wrote: > On Feb 26, 2010, at 12:38 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > > When I was writing lots of C code in the 80's, I used goto's quite > > regularly (I can hear the shrieks! and gasps! and jaws hitting the > > floor out there, or perhaps not from this audience). Every programmer I've ever known when faced with a blackboard or whiteboard and asked to describe the operation of a program starts out by drawing a box and filling it with text. Then another... It must have some deep psychological tie. --Chuck From ploopster at gmail.com Fri Feb 26 12:07:46 2010 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2010 13:07:46 -0500 Subject: OT: white LEDs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B880DF2.8070104@gmail.com> Tony Duell wrote: >> I was using them in a ring light for a downhole well camera. Not that expe= >> nsive=2C about $6 each. > > Has anyone ever tried them for flim photograhpy? THe data sheets I looked > at showed a fairly continuous output spectrrum (unlike the pure colour > LEDs, of course), which could presumably be filtered into something that > looked like daylight to colour film. I use an array of white LEDs behind a polarizing filter in combination with a second polarizer on my lens to minimize reflections from glossy surfaces. Peace... Sridhar From alhartman at yahoo.com Fri Feb 26 12:30:45 2010 From: alhartman at yahoo.com (Al Hartman) Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2010 10:30:45 -0800 (PST) Subject: TRS-80 bootable media request In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <168561.53496.qm@web55305.mail.re4.yahoo.com> Isn't MultiDos either still being sold or available for free? When I was using my TRS-80 systems full time, it was my preferred OS. I lost my Newdos/80 Manual and discs, though I have copies. I'd be willing to help out with this request because I have all the major Model I & III os discs. But, my computer is an LNW-80 Model I and I'm not sure how well it would work to make bootable Model III discs. I used to know, but that was 20 years ago. I just moved, and as soon as my new computer room is setup, a project is to test and image all my old discs from all my various systems. If anyone in the Mid Jersey shore area has a working Model III or IV they are willing to give away, trade or sell (at a price a disabled guy can afford), I would be glad to use it to help in this instance. It makes me sorry I sold my 4p on eBay a few years ago. Al From ploopster at gmail.com Fri Feb 26 13:54:14 2010 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2010 14:54:14 -0500 Subject: joysticks for dos games In-Reply-To: <4B859C40.14639.2FD37A1@cclist.sydex.com> References: <6dbe3c381002242125v14b5981gb767d7a2aaa7f6b2@mail.gmail.com> <4B859C40.14639.2FD37A1@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4B8826E6.50006@gmail.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: >> I need to do a bit more research on this. But can someone suggest a >> good joystick for older PCs with db15 connectors? Most of them seem >> to be cheesy flight sticks. I've seen playstation style controllers >> with usb connectors on them. Something like this would be ideal if it >> had a db15 connector. Any suggestions? > > The ones put out by Advanced Gravis were pretty good. Here's an > example: > > http://www.kpsurplus.com/products/view/24320 > > There are usually a fair number on ePay. I like the ones by CH Products. Peace... Sridhar From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Feb 26 13:19:35 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2010 19:19:35 +0000 (GMT) Subject: TRS-80 bootable media request In-Reply-To: from "Ethan Dicks" at Feb 25, 10 04:53:46 pm Message-ID: > > On 2/25/10, Fred Cisin wrote: > > On Thu, 25 Feb 2010, JP Hindin wrote: > >> I have a friend with an TRS80 Model III would is looking for some bootable > >> media w/TRSDOS and, possibly if available, CP/M... > > > > The TRS80 III, like the 1, had ROM in low memory. and therefore couldn't > > run any form of "normal" CP/M. FMG, and a few others, produced a > > relocated CP/M for model 1 and 3, but it never caught on, AT ALL. > > Is that available anywhere now? I ask because I have a Model 1 w/dual > external 3rd party drives and a Model III and I know more about CP/M > than I do about TRSDOS. My suggestion (as somebody who grew up with the M1 and later the M3 and M4) is that uou get a copy of LDOS and learn to use that. It's a much nicer OS than CP/M. If you want to run CP/M there are, IMHO, nicer machines to run it on (the Epson QX10 comes high up my list..), but LDOS only runs on the TRS-80 and clones. > > > When you see mention of a TRS80 Model 1 or 3 CP/M, it normally means that > > the machine has a small but significant hardware mod to permit > > switching the memory map around. (That included Omicron, Parasitic > > Engineering (Howard Fullmer), Montezuma Micro, etc.) > > Is it a "difficult" mod? I.e., would it be worth rolling a modern one? It's non trivial. It was, IIRC, a PCB that fitted between the Z80 and its socket, and which modified the address coming form the Z80 so that RAM could appear at the bottom of the memory map (as CP/M requires). Of course with an output port to swithc between CP/M and TRS-80 modes. > > > There were also hardware mods for the Expansion Interface to run 8" > > drives. > > I'd guess those aren't too difficult to implement these days. I have > a TM848 in the basement (installed in a Dataram PDP-11-compatible > chassis) that might work nicely on that. Does anyone have any (real) information on the 8" drive modes for the M3 and M4? I would like to try an 8" drive on one of those machines. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Feb 26 13:26:30 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2010 19:26:30 +0000 (GMT) Subject: OT: white LEDs (was: Re: Solderless breadboarding (and 68010 vs In-Reply-To: <4B8682A9.21748.10AEB2D@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Feb 25, 10 02:01:13 pm Message-ID: > > On 25 Feb 2010 at 6:22, Tony Duell wrote: > > > Presumavly you wanted the line output valve ('sweep tube'?) from the > > latter to use as the transmitter PA. > > Oh, much more than that--the radio was the source of variable > capacitors, but the TV was the treasure trove. A huge power > transformer, rectifier (usually something like a 5U4), filter caps, > horizontal output tube(s) (Some early sets used push-pull 6BG6s; > later ones just ran the horizontal output tube to within an inch of > its life. Plus =E7a change...). The exciter could be a 6SJ7, from the > video output stage. Ah, TV sets over here rarely had power transformers at all, and if they did they were likely to be autotransformers. Every valved monochrome TV Iv'e worked on (and most that I've seen the service sheets for) had a 300mA series string of valve heaters and got the B+ line by half-wave rectifying the mains. The EHT came from the horizontal flyback, of course, as did the 'boost supply', taken from the primary of the horizontal output transformer. This was around twice the HT+ voltage (say 400V or so) and was used as the supply to the horizontal output stage and sometimes other stages too. Colour sets often had a mains transformer, but it wqs an autotransformer for the HT+ and series-string heaters, with a separate 5.3V widnign for the CRT heater only. Not a particulalrly useful part for homebrewing. And of course out horizontal output valves had strange heater reatings (300mA current, at 30-40V depending o nthe type IIRC). Again not too useful. You were more likely to find a amins transformer in a large valve radio (you's get 6.3V at 2 or 3A, 350-0-350V and often a separate 4V or 5V winding for the rectifier heater). Of course later radios used series-string heaters (often 100mA) and no transformer. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Feb 26 13:08:02 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2010 19:08:02 +0000 (GMT) Subject: TRS-80 bootable media request In-Reply-To: <20100225133128.F35327@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Feb 25, 10 01:46:03 pm Message-ID: > The Model 4 was very similar to the model 3, but had a CTRL key on the For suitable values of 'similar' :-). The case was much the same (apart from the colour), the floppy drive controller, RS232 interface, power supplies, and monitor PCB were the saem boards. So were the drives (officially 35 cylinder, single sided, but most would do 40 cylinders). The keyboard, as you say, was similar, but it had a few more keys (CTRL, CAPS, and I think f1-f3) put in 'spare' positions in the keyboard matrix. The processor board was totally different. The major changes were the video system (which was hard-wired TTL on the M1 and M3, and used a 6845 on the M4 together with twice as much video RAM, thus allowing 80*24 text raher than the 64*16 of the earlier machines) and the memory addressign hardware (the M4 supported up to 128K of bank-switched RAM, the BASIC ROMs could be mapped out as you said, thus allowing a pure RAM memory MAP for CP/M, etc).. A minor change was the signle-bit sound output on the M4. This was mildly crazy, actually, The sound connector (a 4 pin header) carries +5V, ground, a decoded output strobe and one of the data lines. The sound board cotnaisn a 74LS74 dual Dtype (only one half used as a single-bit output port) and the speakekr driver. The crazy thing is that right next ot that header on the processor board is a 74LS74 with only one half used.. Why the other half wasn't used for the sound output is beyond me. > Eventually RS bought rights to LDOS, and released it as "TRSDOS 6.0" for > Model 3 and 4, and Randy Cook finally started getting royalties! I thought TRS-DOS 6.0 was for the M4 only, and was essentially LDOS from the very beginning. You can run M3 OSes on the M4, but you con't get access to the extra feauters of that machine. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Feb 26 14:17:24 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2010 20:17:24 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Exxon Qyx Typewriter thingy In-Reply-To: <528C9C673CA9BB4891BE0FAC990A3BC3012A5948F2@DMAI-SBS08.DMAI.local> from "Brian McElroy" at Feb 26, 10 11:43:13 am Message-ID: > My Dad worked on these (mechanical designer designing jigs and fixtures for= > assembly) at QYX in Lionville, PA in the late 70's > > There claim to fame was that you could type a letter and then have another = > one type the same thing over the phone lines as an original document....all= > pre facsimile machine. > > It is said that the technology was stolen to help create the fax machine. Err, the analogue fax machine goes back (at least) to the Fultograph iu the 1920s, and there were older ideas than that. I still have my Muirhead Picture Trasnmitter, a portable battery/mains traansmitter part of an analogue fax system, It would guess (based o nthe valves in it) it's 1950s vintage. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Feb 26 13:54:17 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2010 19:54:17 +0000 (GMT) Subject: OT: white LEDs In-Reply-To: from "arcarlini@iee.org" at Feb 25, 10 10:40:20 pm Message-ID: > > Tony Duell [ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk] wrote: > > > OK, I can't grind lenses, > > Oh please! Herschel managed in the late 1700s so I don't see what > possible excuse you can have :-) OK, I know how to grind lenses and mirrors by hand (using onepiece of glass against aonther with suitable abrasives between them, and the fact that by doing this all you cna produce is spherical surfaces (which are not the right surfaces for lenes, but until quite recently, it's all that could be accurately made). But as you and I well know, to grind a lens take a lot of practice. Since I can't get the optical glasses easily anyway, I find it more sensible to buy second-hand lens assemblies. For the sort of cameras I have, the faults in them are likely to be mechancial, mostly gummmed up grease. I am capable of dismantlig diaphragm or a focussing mount and cleaning/rebuilding it). Lens griding would be an intereting thing to try, sure, but there are only 86400 seconds in a day... This does not contradict my earlier comments that IMHO people who want to do electronics as a hobby, or restore classic computers, should learn to solder. Notice I haven't said that everybody should learn to solder. There are plenty of people who persue other interests for which soldering is not necessary. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Feb 26 13:59:44 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2010 19:59:44 +0000 (GMT) Subject: TRS-80 bootable media request In-Reply-To: <20100225144140.T40222@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Feb 25, 10 03:03:42 pm Message-ID: > For machine language on TRS80, look at TBUG, and Allen Gelder's > enhancements thereto. > For assembly, look at Roy Soltoff's assembler > For disk sector work, look at Superzap from NEWDOS80. I found Superutility (a self-booting disk on the M/M3, but I think it was a normal TRS-DOS program on the M4) to be very useful for this sort of thing. I still ahve my M4 sert up to run that. It will let you read/write any disk that the disk controller is physcially capable of handling. > For disk viewing below the sector level, look at Roxton Baker's? TRAKCESS. > For disk format conversion, look at Mike Gingel's programs There was a program called TRScross (or something like that) to read/write CP/M disks under TRS-DOS. Very useful... And somewhere I have a program caleld BBCdisk to read/write BBC micro (Acorn DFS) disks. > For spreadsheets: VISICALC (avail from RS) > For wordprocessing, Michael Shrayer's ELECTRIC PENCIL and RS's SCRIPSIT There were also other programming langages available. Pascal-80 was wuite nice (I don;t mean tiny pascal), and MMSforth. I think RS sold Microsoft Fortran and Cobol. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Feb 26 14:11:17 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2010 20:11:17 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Soldering (Was: Re: HP-IB, Amigo/cs80 ... ) In-Reply-To: <4B86D90F.21400.25C6CAA@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Feb 25, 10 08:09:51 pm Message-ID: > > On 25 Feb 2010 at 22:38, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > > > I don't try to catch any dropped tools. Even if they're expensive. > > Losing a hand just isn't worth it. I think it depends on the tool. I am not sure if you'd class a logicdart as a tool, but I would certianly try to catch that if it fell. It is not going to do me much herm (it's not sharp or hot), and it would be impossible for me to replace it (hard to find, and I couldn't afford one). [...] > Another good practice is to step back immediately when you lose your > grip on a sharp or heavy tool. Burned or bleeding feet and missing > toes aren't much fun. This reminds me of 2 other things I was taught, when removing a pulley or similar from a shaft. If using a puller tool, don't stand in line with it. If it releases suddenly, it will fly off and hit you. For large pullers and parts, broekn ribs, etc are a distinct possibility. If yuo are supporting the pulley on a bench vice and either tapping the spindle out or suing a puller, put the nut back on by 2 or 3 turns. Firstly to protect the threads on the end of the spindle, and secondly to protect your feet brom being hit by the falling spindle when it does come off. -tony From thrashbarg at kaput.homeunix.org Fri Feb 26 14:23:01 2010 From: thrashbarg at kaput.homeunix.org (Alexis) Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2010 06:53:01 +1030 Subject: Cayman GatorBox CS firmware update issues Message-ID: <201002270653.02090.thrashbarg@kaput.homeunix.org> Hi, A friend of mine gave me a GatorBox CS recently. It works nicely, but the firmware version is 1.6.1. I tried to update it to 3.0.3 with the software at http://alfter.us/files/gatorbox/gatorbox-cs/ but when it goes to reboot into update mode it stops with the Ethernet LED on. The same thing happens when I try to do a software reset. A power cycle gets it unlocked but it's no longer in update mode. Any thoughts? Cheers, Alexis. From emu at e-bbes.com Fri Feb 26 14:23:19 2010 From: emu at e-bbes.com (e.stiebler) Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2010 13:23:19 -0700 Subject: VAX graphics In-Reply-To: <4B8716A4.3050606@softjar.se> References: <4B8716A4.3050606@softjar.se> Message-ID: <4B882DB7.1010503@e-bbes.com> Johnny Billquist wrote: > And I dare say, that picture have higher resolution, and more depth than > my simple calculation above used. No, it should be just 512x512x8. Don't forget that you are watching youtube in a lousy resolution. And we used a grinell system 1981 already (pdp11) which had 512x256 (not sure it was 512x512). 8 bit is sufficient to show what he is doing on it. Cheers From emu at e-bbes.com Fri Feb 26 14:24:30 2010 From: emu at e-bbes.com (e.stiebler) Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2010 13:24:30 -0700 Subject: DEC Graphics, was : VAX graphics Message-ID: <4B882DFE.7000708@e-bbes.com> Hi all, the discussion triggered it again : Did really no documentation of the grinell systems survive ? Cheers From oltmansg at bellsouth.net Fri Feb 26 14:33:19 2010 From: oltmansg at bellsouth.net (geoffrey oltmans) Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2010 12:33:19 -0800 (PST) Subject: Exxon Qyx Typewriter thingy In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <567613.78482.qm@web83905.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Quite a bit older than that... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fax#History In 1861, the first practical operational electro-mechanical commercially exploited telefax machine, the Pantelegraph, was invented by the Italian physicist Giovanni Caselli. He introduced the first commercial telefax service between Paris and Lyon in 1865, some 11 years before the invention of workable telephones. ________________________________ From: Tony Duell To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Sent: Fri, February 26, 2010 2:17:24 PM Subject: Re: Exxon Qyx Typewriter thingy > My Dad worked on these (mechanical designer designing jigs and fixtures for= > assembly) at QYX in Lionville, PA in the late 70's > > There claim to fame was that you could type a letter and then have another = > one type the same thing over the phone lines as an original document....all= > pre facsimile machine. > > It is said that the technology was stolen to help create the fax machine. Err, the analogue fax machine goes back (at least) to the Fultograph iu the 1920s, and there were older ideas than that. I still have my Muirhead Picture Trasnmitter, a portable battery/mains traansmitter part of an analogue fax system, It would guess (based o nthe valves in it) it's 1950s vintage. -tony From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Feb 26 14:42:43 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2010 12:42:43 -0800 (PST) Subject: TRS-80 bootable media request In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20100226123901.O80512@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 26 Feb 2010, Tony Duell wrote: > > For disk format conversion, look at Mike Gingel's programs > There was a program called TRScross (or something like that) to read/write > CP/M disks under TRS-DOS. Very useful... That's one of Mike Gingel's programs. Sorry that I couldn't remember the name earlier. Human RAM does have the "dynamic" aspect of fading away if not refreshed periodically. > There were also other programming langages available. Pascal-80 was wuite > nice (I don;t mean tiny pascal), and MMSforth. I think RS sold Microsoft > Fortran and Cobol. I don't know about COBOL, but I have reason to believe that at one time, I had the first three retail copies of the FORTRAN. From teoz at neo.rr.com Fri Feb 26 14:43:54 2010 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2010 15:43:54 -0500 Subject: joysticks for dos games References: <6dbe3c381002242125v14b5981gb767d7a2aaa7f6b2@mail.gmail.com><4B859C40.14639.2FD37A1@cclist.sydex.com> <4B8826E6.50006@gmail.com> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sridhar Ayengar" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Friday, February 26, 2010 2:54 PM Subject: Re: joysticks for dos games > > I like the ones by CH Products. > > Peace... Sridhar Speaking of which I snagged a CH Products F16 flight stick and the matching throttle today at a thrift store. Do you need a special dual joystick card to use them both at the same time? The throttle looks like you might need to loop it into the keyboard port as well. From cclist at sydex.com Fri Feb 26 14:50:52 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2010 12:50:52 -0800 Subject: Soldering (Was: Re: HP-IB, Amigo/cs80 ... ) In-Reply-To: References: <4B86D90F.21400.25C6CAA@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Feb 25, 10 08:09:51 pm, Message-ID: <4B87C3AC.12693.C90751@cclist.sydex.com> On 26 Feb 2010 at 20:11, Tony Duell wrote: > This reminds me of 2 other things I was taught, when removing a pulley > or similar from a shaft. If using a puller tool, don't stand in line > with it. If it releases suddenly, it will fly off and hit you. For > large pullers and parts, broekn ribs, etc are a distinct possibility. Knowing what could go where is an important safey precaution in just about any field, be it logging or moving heavy racks of equipment or brewing a pot of tea. I learned about stored energy in granny-knotted steel winch cable when I cut through a knot and got whacked in the face by the loose end of a 1.25" cable. Left me bruised and sore, but thankfully, nothing more. Sometimes I'm just lucky. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Fri Feb 26 14:53:56 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2010 12:53:56 -0800 Subject: TRS-80 bootable media request In-Reply-To: <20100226123901.O80512@shell.lmi.net> References: , <20100226123901.O80512@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4B87C464.17610.CBD3EE@cclist.sydex.com> On 26 Feb 2010 at 12:42, Fred Cisin wrote: > I don't know about COBOL, but I have reason to believe that at one > time, I had the first three retail copies of the FORTRAN. Micro Focus COBOL was available for CP/M 80, as well as (ISTR) Ryan- McFarland COBOL. --Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Feb 26 15:07:02 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2010 13:07:02 -0800 (PST) Subject: joysticks for dos games In-Reply-To: <4B8826E6.50006@gmail.com> References: <6dbe3c381002242125v14b5981gb767d7a2aaa7f6b2@mail.gmail.com> <4B859C40.14639.2FD37A1@cclist.sydex.com> <4B8826E6.50006@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20100226130127.T80512@shell.lmi.net> > I need to do a bit more research on this. But can someone suggest a > good joystick for older PCs with db15 connectors? Most of them seem > to be cheesy flight sticks. I've seen playstation style controllers > with usb connectors on them. Something like this would be ideal if it > had a db15 connector. Any suggestions? When IBM first released the "analog input board", they were not selling a joystick at the time. But, in the Technical Reference Manual, they had the pinout, the schematic, the source code of the input routine, and a drawing of a Radio Shack Color Computer joystick! Clipping one wire, and replacing the DIN plug with a DA15 (they did not ever use a DB15), produced a result that operated exactly as intended. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Feb 26 15:11:34 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2010 13:11:34 -0800 (PST) Subject: TRS-80 bootable media request In-Reply-To: <4B87C464.17610.CBD3EE@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <20100226123901.O80512@shell.lmi.net> <4B87C464.17610.CBD3EE@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20100226130808.F80512@shell.lmi.net> > > I don't know about COBOL, but I have reason to believe that at one > > time, I had the first three retail copies of the FORTRAN. (Microsoft FORTRAN for TRS80) On Fri, 26 Feb 2010, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Micro Focus COBOL was available for CP/M 80, as well as (ISTR) Ryan- > McFarland COBOL. But, the TRS80 needed to be modified to run CP/M. I don't think that either Micro-Focus nor Ryan McFarland would run on the FMG relocated CP/M 1.4 'Course once you modified the machine for CP/M, then almost anything that you could want was available. From ploopster at gmail.com Fri Feb 26 15:14:25 2010 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2010 16:14:25 -0500 Subject: joysticks for dos games In-Reply-To: References: <6dbe3c381002242125v14b5981gb767d7a2aaa7f6b2@mail.gmail.com><4B859C40.14639.2FD37A1@cclist.sydex.com> <4B8826E6.50006@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B8839B1.7060401@gmail.com> Teo Zenios wrote: >> I like the ones by CH Products. > > Speaking of which I snagged a CH Products F16 flight stick and the > matching throttle today at a thrift store. Do you need a special dual > joystick card to use them both at the same time? The throttle looks like > you might need to loop it into the keyboard port as well. I don't know about "special", but some DA15 joystick ports support two joysticks on various pins, and there's a cable that has (I think) a single DA15M on one side and two DA15Fs on the other, and on the second DA15F, the pins are swapped between the "first joystick" pins and the "second joystick" pins. I have two or three of these cables, and have used them with multiple joysticks. Peace... Sridhar From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Fri Feb 26 15:30:13 2010 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2010 13:30:13 -0800 Subject: early fax / Re: Exxon Qyx Typewriter thingy References: <528C9C673CA9BB4891BE0FAC990A3BC3012A5948F2@DMAI-SBS08.DMAI.local> <4B879BCD.18932.2D45E7@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4B883D64.8ED570B2@cs.ubc.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote: > > On 26 Feb 2010 at 11:43, Brian McElroy wrote: > > > My Dad worked on these (mechanical designer designing jigs and > > fixtures for assembly) at QYX in Lionville, PA in the late 70's > > > > There claim to fame was that you could type a letter and then have > > another one type the same thing over the phone lines as an original > > document....all pre facsimile machine. > > > > It is said that the technology was stolen to help create the fax > > machine. > > I thought it was the Exxon Qwip that was the prototype for the modern > FAX machine. I can remember the spinning-drum types from much > earlier. Reffing my own pages but here's a little about one version of those drum machines and service (no claim to the earliest, as per other messages): http://www.cs.ubc.ca/~hilpert/e/deskfax/index.html From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Feb 26 13:38:43 2010 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2010 19:38:43 -0000 Subject: Semi-OT: vintage videogames made into films References: <4B849DF5.4010708@snarc.net>, , <000001cab65e$cbf60700$2b0b9f0a@user8459cef6fa> Message-ID: <019d01cab72a$ff81b340$32fdf93e@user8459cef6fa> Oh, I didn't know that. It must have slipped me by, thank goodness. Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dan Gahlinger" To: Sent: Thursday, February 25, 2010 9:13 PM Subject: RE: Semi-OT: vintage videogames made into films war games has already been redone. it was awful. utterly horrible. Dan. > From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Semi-OT: vintage videogames made into films > Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2010 17:38:48 +0000 > > > Not just 80's, but classic 50s, 60s and 70s films and TV programmes. And the > occasional Japanese classic - Godzilla and The Ring. Godzilla wasn't a true > Godzilla film and was much more like Jurassic Park with the Godzilla > license. > Just as long as they don't redo The Computer That Wore Tennis Shoes, War > Games or Forbidden Planet. I'd hate to think what kind of robot they would > use in place of Robbie The Robot *shudders* > > > Regards, > Andrew B > aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Zane H. Healy" > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > ; > Sent: Wednesday, February 24, 2010 3:37 AM > Subject: Re: Semi-OT: vintage videogames made into films > > > > At 10:33 PM -0500 2/23/10, Evan Koblentz wrote: > > > >http://videogames.yahoo.com/events/plugged-in/missile-command-movie-incomin > g/1390235 > > > > > >"Missile Command" may become a feature film. > > > > Say it isn't so. My wife swears all these idiots can do is rip of > > 80's culture, and that no one is making original movies. I'm > > starting to think she's right. > > > > Zane > > > > > > -- > > | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | > > | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | > > | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | > > +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ > > | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | > > | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | > > | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | > _________________________________________________________________ From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Feb 26 15:33:50 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2010 16:33:50 -0500 Subject: OT: white LEDs (was: Re: Solderless breadboarding (and 68010 vs In-Reply-To: References: <4B8682A9.21748.10AEB2D@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Feb 26, 2010 at 2:26 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > Ah, TV sets over here rarely had power transformers at all... Every valved > monochrome TV Iv'e worked on... had a 300mA series string of valve heaters > and got the B+ line by half-wave rectifying the mains. Sure, but your mains were twice the voltage of our mains. -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Feb 26 15:39:24 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2010 16:39:24 -0500 Subject: Soldering (Was: Re: HP-IB, Amigo/cs80 ... ) In-Reply-To: References: <4B86D90F.21400.25C6CAA@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Feb 26, 2010 at 3:11 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > This reminds me of 2 other things I was taught, when removing a pulley or > similar from a shaft. If using a puller tool, don't stand in line with > it. If it releases suddenly, it will fly off and hit you. For large > pullers and parts, broekn ribs, etc are a distinct possibility. My brother broke his nose with the back of his own hand when a similar assembly "let go" suddenly. He was working at eye-level vs bench-level, but it's the same principle - don't stand with body parts blocking the axis of removal. -ethan From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Feb 26 15:39:53 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2010 13:39:53 -0800 (PST) Subject: Exxon Qyx Typewriter thingy In-Reply-To: <528C9C673CA9BB4891BE0FAC990A3BC3012A5948F2@DMAI-SBS08.DMAI.local> References: <528C9C673CA9BB4891BE0FAC990A3BC3012A5948F2@DMAI-SBS08.DMAI.local> Message-ID: <20100226133801.N82638@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 26 Feb 2010, Brian McElroy wrote: > There claim to fame was that you could type a letter and then have > another one type the same thing over the phone lines as an original > document....all pre facsimile machine. Fax machines have been around a LONG time. There are mentions before 1900 for technology to transmit pictures over wire. From ploopster at gmail.com Fri Feb 26 15:41:50 2010 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2010 16:41:50 -0500 Subject: Soldering (Was: Re: HP-IB, Amigo/cs80 ... ) In-Reply-To: References: <4B86D90F.21400.25C6CAA@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4B88401E.9040900@gmail.com> Ethan Dicks wrote: >> This reminds me of 2 other things I was taught, when removing a pulley or >> similar from a shaft. If using a puller tool, don't stand in line with >> it. If it releases suddenly, it will fly off and hit you. For large >> pullers and parts, broekn ribs, etc are a distinct possibility. > > My brother broke his nose with the back of his own hand when a similar > assembly "let go" suddenly. He was working at eye-level vs > bench-level, but it's the same principle - don't stand with body parts > blocking the axis of removal. I was horsing around with my brother when I was about 7 years old and he was pulling his hand away from me when I suddenly let go. He gave himself a bloody nose and knocked himself on his ass. Peace... Sridhar From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Fri Feb 26 15:55:50 2010 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2010 21:55:50 +0000 Subject: early fax / Re: Exxon Qyx Typewriter thingy In-Reply-To: <4B883D64.8ED570B2@cs.ubc.ca> References: <528C9C673CA9BB4891BE0FAC990A3BC3012A5948F2@DMAI-SBS08.DMAI.local> <4B879BCD.18932.2D45E7@cclist.sydex.com> <4B883D64.8ED570B2@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: I remember a rotating drum machine knocking about at the Burton upon Trent Radio Club, iirc it was a british, it used to be kept carefully. A quick google has found it mentioned on the current website:- One interesting item is a Fultograph, dated 1928, this was a device used for receiving pictures which were transmitted by wireless from various stations including the Eiffel Tower in Paris. This device was driven by a clockwork motor which was synchronised by pulses from the transmitter. It seems it was an early version of the fax machine A picture of one is mid page http://www.technikum29.de/en/communication/fax.shtm Dave Caroline From cclist at sydex.com Fri Feb 26 16:08:51 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2010 14:08:51 -0800 Subject: early fax / Re: Exxon Qyx Typewriter thingy In-Reply-To: <4B883D64.8ED570B2@cs.ubc.ca> References: <528C9C673CA9BB4891BE0FAC990A3BC3012A5948F2@DMAI-SBS08.DMAI.local>, <4B883D64.8ED570B2@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <4B87D5F3.22673.11069CB@cclist.sydex.com> On 26 Feb 2010 at 13:30, Brent Hilpert wrote: > Reffing my own pages but here's a little about one version of those > drum machines and service (no claim to the earliest, as per other > messages): > http://www.cs.ubc.ca/~hilpert/e/deskfax/index.html Airports always had one or more of these spinning-drum fax machines for receiving weather maps. I don't know when it started, but it must have been very shortly after WWII. I haven't listened to the commercial SW bands much lately, but over- the-air fax transmissions (weather maps?) used to be quite common. --Chuck From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Feb 26 17:18:09 2010 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2010 17:18:09 -0600 Subject: flowcharts and teaching programming / was Re: Barden programmingbooks In-Reply-To: <4B879C5C.27291.2F7385@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4B880727.A5319A4D@cs.ubc.ca> <4B879C5C.27291.2F7385@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <201002262320.o1QNKXGK080120@billY.EZWIND.NET> At 12:03 PM 2/26/2010, Chuck Guzis wrote: >On 26 Feb 2010 at 12:46, Dave McGuire wrote: >> On Feb 26, 2010, at 12:38 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: >> > When I was writing lots of C code in the 80's, I used goto's quite >> > regularly (I can hear the shrieks! and gasps! and jaws hitting the >> > floor out there, or perhaps not from this audience). > >Every programmer I've ever known when faced with a blackboard or >whiteboard and asked to describe the operation of a program starts >out by drawing a box and filling it with text. Then another... Every good cartoonist knows you draw the words first, then put the box around them. Speaking of loops, this topic was covered in 1999 and 2005. - John At 10:12 AM 5/11/2005, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: >I miss GOTO. It was unnecessarily expunged from the programmmer's toolbox >by elitist academics. It's a tool. Why, I discussed this with a "Sam Ismail" back in 1999: - John >Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 16:00:07 +0000 >To: classiccmp at u.washington.edu, >From: John Foust >Subject: Re: Computers for children > >At 11:37 PM 1/14/99 -0800, Sam Ismail wrote: >> >>Remember, C has a goto statement, although I don't think in my nearly 10 >>years of C programming I've ever used it, although on certain rare >>occasions it seemed the easy way out to a sticky coding problem. >> [...] but C really suffers from a lack of >>a general error trapping mechanism that one can invoke to break out of >>loops as required. Sometimes I think goto's are the answer but I can >>never find an appropriate way to implement it. > >I use "goto" in C on a regular and consistent basis for error exceptions: > >USHORT firstFunction( void ) >{ >USHORT lerr; > > if ((lerr=secondFunction()) != TE_NOERROR) { > goto out; > } > >out: > return lerr; >} > >The benefit is that all functions propogate an error code, any >function can fail, and all functions clean up after themselves >after their "out" label. > >- John From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Feb 26 18:21:08 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2010 19:21:08 -0500 Subject: early fax / Re: Exxon Qyx Typewriter thingy In-Reply-To: <4B883D64.8ED570B2@cs.ubc.ca> References: <528C9C673CA9BB4891BE0FAC990A3BC3012A5948F2@DMAI-SBS08.DMAI.local> <4B879BCD.18932.2D45E7@cclist.sydex.com> <4B883D64.8ED570B2@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <3F280E14-03BC-4E63-A413-219606951781@neurotica.com> On Feb 26, 2010, at 4:30 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: >>> My Dad worked on these (mechanical designer designing jigs and >>> fixtures for assembly) at QYX in Lionville, PA in the late 70's >>> >>> There claim to fame was that you could type a letter and then have >>> another one type the same thing over the phone lines as an original >>> document....all pre facsimile machine. >>> >>> It is said that the technology was stolen to help create the fax >>> machine. >> >> I thought it was the Exxon Qwip that was the prototype for the modern >> FAX machine. I can remember the spinning-drum types from much >> earlier. > > Reffing my own pages but here's a little about one version of those > drum > machines and service (no claim to the earliest, as per other > messages): > http://www.cs.ubc.ca/~hilpert/e/deskfax/index.html I have one of exactly that model! I picked it up on eBay several years ago, along with some docs, some paper, and a copy of an old ham radio magazine article about how to use it for HF FAX. It's a neat device! -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Feb 26 21:29:10 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2010 19:29:10 -0800 (PST) Subject: Classilla 9.1 released Message-ID: <201002270329.o1R3TA1r012916@floodgap.com> It's still technically off-topic (2002 is only 8 years ago), but for Mac OS 8.6 and 9 users, I released Classilla 9.1 tonight, the most current version of the Mozilla-based web browser I maintain for the classic Mac OS. It's still a work in progress, but I eat my own dogfood, and this tastes good enough to put in the can. (And belabour the metaphor.) http://www.classilla.org/ -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- There are few problems that the liberal usage of high explosives can't cure. From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Fri Feb 26 21:30:32 2010 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2010 19:30:32 -0800 Subject: early fax / Re: Exxon Qyx Typewriter thingy References: <528C9C673CA9BB4891BE0FAC990A3BC3012A5948F2@DMAI-SBS08.DMAI.local> <4B879BCD.18932.2D45E7@cclist.sydex.com> <4B883D64.8ED570B2@cs.ubc.ca> <3F280E14-03BC-4E63-A413-219606951781@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4B8891D9.C84877B7@cs.ubc.ca> Dave McGuire wrote: > > On Feb 26, 2010, at 4:30 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > > Reffing my own pages but here's a little about one version of those > > drum > > machines and service (no claim to the earliest, as per other > > messages): > > http://www.cs.ubc.ca/~hilpert/e/deskfax/index.html > > I have one of exactly that model! I picked it up on eBay several > years ago, along with some docs, some paper, and a copy of an old ham > radio magazine article about how to use it for HF FAX. It's a neat > device! Indeed, they are one of those archaic, but interesting, combinations of old technology and techniques. If you haven't done so or looked into it already, it should be possible with just one unit to interface it to a couple of bits of a port on something modern, with not much hardware. A little program to process the signal could permit scanning and/or printing to/from a modern computer. Could be fun, for example, to see a scan build line-by-line on the screen of your computer as it is scanned on the clunky Desk-Fax. I haven't done the above but was instead working on an interface to permit two units to transfer to each other. From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Fri Feb 26 21:40:29 2010 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2010 19:40:29 -0800 Subject: Classilla 9.1 released References: <201002270329.o1R3TA1r012916@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <4B88942D.89309CDF@cs.ubc.ca> Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > It's still technically off-topic (2002 is only 8 years ago), but for Mac > OS 8.6 and 9 users, I released Classilla 9.1 tonight, the most current > version of the Mozilla-based web browser I maintain for the classic Mac > OS. It's still a work in progress, but I eat my own dogfood, and this > tastes good enough to put in the can. (And belabour the metaphor.) > > http://www.classilla.org/ I've been using it on occasion since you first mentioned it a few months ago. It is much better in rendering capability than the other old browsers I have here. I would like to use it more, but it seems to take quite a chunk of memory, right from startup and maxes out my limited old machine. Is 9.1 any better with regards to memory usage? From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Feb 26 21:45:33 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2010 19:45:33 -0800 (PST) Subject: Classilla 9.1 released In-Reply-To: <4B88942D.89309CDF@cs.ubc.ca> from Brent Hilpert at "Feb 26, 10 07:40:29 pm" Message-ID: <201002270345.o1R3jXRC014576@floodgap.com> > > It's still technically off-topic (2002 is only 8 years ago), but for Mac > > OS 8.6 and 9 users, I released Classilla 9.1 tonight, the most current > > version of the Mozilla-based web browser I maintain for the classic Mac > > OS. It's still a work in progress, but I eat my own dogfood, and this > > tastes good enough to put in the can. (And belabour the metaphor.) > > > > http://www.classilla.org/ > > I've been using it on occasion since you first mentioned it a few months ago. > It is much better in rendering capability than the other old browsers I have > here. I would like to use it more, but it seems to take quite a chunk of > memory, right from startup and maxes out my limited old machine. Is 9.1 any > better with regards to memory usage? 9.1 is about the same, but unfortunately it's probably going to be worse in later versions. The reason is simply because Mozilla code tends to be piggish about memory, and the increasing complexity of modern sites makes Classilla very unstable without a generous allocation. I am planning to adapt a later JavaScript interpreter to the next version of Classilla, but that is going to require quite a bit more stack overhead, and later layout requirements may be even fatter. Note that the allocation can be made out of virtual memory; you don't need to have sufficient physical RAM (though it is strongly advised) if you have enough total addressing space, even if that space is virtual. For example, I test and run Classilla on my beloved PowerBook 1400 by using RAM Doubler, and it only has 60MB of physical RAM. Plus, RAM Doubler is much higher performance than Apple VM, but Apple Virtual Memory will also work. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Homestar has a web site? -- Strong Bad ------------------------------------- From c.murray.mccullough at gmail.com Fri Feb 26 16:51:21 2010 From: c.murray.mccullough at gmail.com (Murray McCullough) Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2010 17:51:21 -0500 Subject: flowcharts and teaching programming/was Re: Barden programming books Message-ID: I began programming IBM, CDC and Amdahl machines in June 1970. All assignments at the Computer Institute of Canada were graded according to the accuracy of the flowchart and the initial box as Chuck states. COBOL and other languages employed at that time employed gotos; it was a sign of sloppy programming according to purists and professors/instructors but gotos usually solved complex junction problems in an elegant fashion. BASIC and 'Small-C' used them to the same effect in the microcomputer world of late 70s. Early programming books are getting scarce yet magazines of that era had programming projects and got many of us interested in advanced programming versus machine-language programming; it beat flipping switches and assembler programming of early to mid-70s machines! Murray-- From bqt at softjar.se Fri Feb 26 17:01:01 2010 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2010 00:01:01 +0100 Subject: VAX graphics In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B8852AD.8020001@softjar.se> "e.stiebler" wrote: > Johnny Billquist wrote: >> And I dare say, that picture have higher resolution, and more depth than >> my simple calculation above used. > > No, it should be just 512x512x8. Don't forget that you are watching > youtube in a lousy resolution. You are right. She even says in the beginning that it's 250,000 pixels. Assuming they take a little liberties to simplify things, that would mean 512x512. Looking at the first perspective city picture, you can see that he has a palette of 256 shades to blue to pick from (ranging from black to white). It might be that the graphic system have a color palette then, since obviously, there are other colors than blue possible, but none others are shown there. Or else they have a 24 bit pixel depth, which would be very impressive. But any way you look at it, my comment still stands. With a serial line running at 19200 bps, it would take about two and a half minute to draw a picture, at the best of time. I dare say we can safely assume it's not a serially connected terminal (even ignoring that I don't think I've ever seen or heard of a serial terminal with bitmap graphics with a resolution close to this). Looking more at the video. There are no visible clues at all that I can see as to who actually manufactured the graphics system. The system definitely are running some kind of Unix, though. Anyone who recognize the tablet? It is after all in focus quite a lot. > And we used a grinell system 1981 already (pdp11) which had 512x256 (not > sure it was 512x512). 8 bit is sufficient to show what he is doing on it. Never heard of grinell. But I have a VSV21 here. 640x480 pixel resolution. Unfortunately only 4 bitplanes. But it's a very fun graphic system for the PDP11 anyway... And later than 1981, but made by DEC. Oh, and that's for the Q-bus... Unibus graphic systems are rarer... Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From ddsnyder at zoominternet.net Fri Feb 26 19:24:55 2010 From: ddsnyder at zoominternet.net (Daniel Snyder) Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2010 20:24:55 -0500 Subject: Free for pickup - update - MicroC magazines - Roy fromIllinoisplease reply.. References: <814220.37190.qm@web50702.mail.re2.yahoo.com><4B80A0BA.6030803@att.net><000701cab316$cd07e6e0$6501a8c0@HPD530> Message-ID: <000b01cab74b$ab108fe0$6501a8c0@HPD530> Teo, No problem, they are marked for you.. As for DEC Connect cables, all of mine are in use. I bought some remaining stock from a vendor on ebay, relatively cheap. Dan ----- Original Message ----- From: "Teo Zenios" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Sunday, February 21, 2010 7:11 PM Subject: Re: Free for pickup - update - MicroC magazines - Roy fromIllinoisplease reply.. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Daniel Snyder" > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" > Sent: Sunday, February 21, 2010 11:56 AM > Subject: Free for pickup - update - MicroC magazines - Roy from > Illinoisplease reply.. > > >> To all, >> >> After processing emails for the Micro Cornucopia and >> MicroSystems magazines, my WinXP PC's hard drive >> suffered (Actually I suffered) a failure and all emails from >> interested parties were lost. >> I know that a Roy from Illinois (rhyms..) was the first to >> answer....but I need this address. >> >> I believe that Teo will be receiving some PS/2 stuff as well. >> >> That leaves the Centronics and NEC spinwriter.. >> >> Dan Snyder - Butler, PA > > I wanted the PS2-TV, Model 80, and a Model 70 486 > > > From gyorpb at gmail.com Sat Feb 27 08:35:23 2010 From: gyorpb at gmail.com (Joost van de Griek) Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2010 15:35:23 +0100 Subject: flowcharts and teaching programming / was Re: Barden programmingbooks In-Reply-To: <4B880727.A5319A4D@cs.ubc.ca> References: <4B877E0E.7C53A71B@cs.ubc.ca> <4B8787FC.9010304@jetnet.ab.ca> <4B880727.A5319A4D@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <766444381002270635j4666f1a8v9e6848478409a03b@mail.gmail.com> On 26 February 2010 18:38, Brent Hilpert wrote: > Ben wrote: > >> Just what is nested block diagram? > > Amending my own description, "nested-box diagram" might be better. I wish I > could scan one of my old ones here. > Basically it's a bunch of nested boxes representing the block structure of the > program. Primary flow is down, if-else, for example, is two boxes side-by-side > within another box with the condition at the top. .tsooJ From emu at e-bbes.com Sat Feb 27 09:47:13 2010 From: emu at e-bbes.com (e.stiebler) Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2010 08:47:13 -0700 Subject: VAX graphics In-Reply-To: <4B8852AD.8020001@softjar.se> References: <4B8852AD.8020001@softjar.se> Message-ID: <4B893E81.3080100@e-bbes.com> Johnny Billquist wrote: > It might be that the graphic system have a color palette then, since > obviously, there are other colors than blue possible, but none others > are shown there. > Or else they have a 24 bit pixel depth, which would be very impressive. Our grinell had more than one buffer, and you could do operations between them too. > I dare say we can safely assume it's not a serially connected terminal > (even ignoring that I don't think I've ever seen or heard of a serial > terminal with bitmap graphics with a resolution close to this). I agree here ;-) Ours was also attached via a DRW whatever on the bus. (Sorry, thirty years ago ;-)) > Never heard of grinell. > But I have a VSV21 here. 640x480 pixel resolution. Unfortunately only 4 > bitplanes. But it's a very fun graphic system for the PDP11 anyway... > And later than 1981, but made by DEC. Oh, and that's for the Q-bus... > Unibus graphic systems are rarer... I should have them here too. One day ... Cheers From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Sat Feb 27 08:59:38 2010 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2010 14:59:38 -0000 Subject: Soldering (Was: Re: HP-IB, Amigo/cs80 ... ) References: Message-ID: <00b001cab7c7$e25bea90$ac2f5f0a@user8459cef6fa> Since we are talking about H&S here, I will throw this in as it's a recent incident that happened (although doesn't really apply to computers): Someone was working on hydraulic equipment to replace a leak. He placed his finger over the hole where the leak was (so as not to lose it's location) and the equipment was turned off, to prevent pressure building up. However, pressure built up and well... the result was hydraulic fluid being forced through his skin into his blood. He was quickly attended to by medical staff that cut open his hand and carefully removed all traces of the fluid. There is a horrific picture too, but it's not a pretty sight. I know the same sort of thing can happen with high pressure air tools if you are foolish enough to place your hand (or any other part of your body) against it and release the air. However, in that case death (heart attack) would be almost instant. Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Friday, February 26, 2010 8:11 PM Subject: Re: Soldering (Was: Re: HP-IB, Amigo/cs80 ... ) > > > > On 25 Feb 2010 at 22:38, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > > > > > I don't try to catch any dropped tools. Even if they're expensive. > > > Losing a hand just isn't worth it. > > I think it depends on the tool. I am not sure if you'd class a logicdart > as a tool, but I would certianly try to catch that if it fell. It is not > going to do me much herm (it's not sharp or hot), and it would be > impossible for me to replace it (hard to find, and I couldn't afford > one). > > [...] > > > Another good practice is to step back immediately when you lose your > > grip on a sharp or heavy tool. Burned or bleeding feet and missing > > toes aren't much fun. > > This reminds me of 2 other things I was taught, when removing a pulley or > similar from a shaft. If using a puller tool, don't stand in line with > it. If it releases suddenly, it will fly off and hit you. For large > pullers and parts, broekn ribs, etc are a distinct possibility. > > If yuo are supporting the pulley on a bench vice and either tapping the > spindle out or suing a puller, put the nut back on by 2 or 3 turns. > Firstly to protect the threads on the end of the spindle, and secondly to > protect your feet brom being hit by the falling spindle when it does come > off. > > -tony > From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Sat Feb 27 09:45:21 2010 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2010 15:45:21 -0000 Subject: Classilla 9.1 released References: <201002270345.o1R3jXRC014576@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <00b201cab7c7$ed35ee70$ac2f5f0a@user8459cef6fa> Does Classilla support HTML5? YouTube is currently pulling up a warning on every page I visit, stating that my browser (Firefox 2.0.0.20) will be unsupported after 13th March. I suspect it won't be long after that that other mainstream sites follow suite :( I don't own a Mac, just bringing this to your attention. Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk ----- Original Message ----- From: "Cameron Kaiser" To: Sent: Saturday, February 27, 2010 3:45 AM Subject: Re: Classilla 9.1 released > > > It's still technically off-topic (2002 is only 8 years ago), but for Mac > > > OS 8.6 and 9 users, I released Classilla 9.1 tonight, the most current > > > version of the Mozilla-based web browser I maintain for the classic Mac > > > OS. It's still a work in progress, but I eat my own dogfood, and this > > > tastes good enough to put in the can. (And belabour the metaphor.) > > > > > > http://www.classilla.org/ > > > > I've been using it on occasion since you first mentioned it a few months ago. > > It is much better in rendering capability than the other old browsers I have > > here. I would like to use it more, but it seems to take quite a chunk of > > memory, right from startup and maxes out my limited old machine. Is 9.1 any > > better with regards to memory usage? > > 9.1 is about the same, but unfortunately it's probably going to be worse in > later versions. The reason is simply because Mozilla code tends to be piggish > about memory, and the increasing complexity of modern sites makes Classilla > very unstable without a generous allocation. I am planning to adapt a later > JavaScript interpreter to the next version of Classilla, but that is going to > require quite a bit more stack overhead, and later layout requirements may > be even fatter. > > Note that the allocation can be made out of virtual memory; you don't need to > have sufficient physical RAM (though it is strongly advised) if you have > enough total addressing space, even if that space is virtual. For example, I > test and run Classilla on my beloved PowerBook 1400 by using RAM Doubler, and > it only has 60MB of physical RAM. Plus, RAM Doubler is much higher performance > than Apple VM, but Apple Virtual Memory will also work. > > -- > ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- > Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com > -- Homestar has a web site? -- Strong Bad ------------------------------------- From fryers at gmail.com Sat Feb 27 10:38:16 2010 From: fryers at gmail.com (Simon Fryer) Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2010 16:38:16 +0000 Subject: Labtam 32032 In-Reply-To: <347d9b1b1002100256u51d86602yda6abee7e5406260@mail.gmail.com> References: <347d9b1b1002100256u51d86602yda6abee7e5406260@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: G'Day, On 10 February 2010 10:56, Alexander Voropay wrote: Hmmm. Just catching up on email. > ?Does anyone have information about Labtam 32032 system ? > > ?We've found one in the military depot: > > http://www.phantom.sannata.ru/forum/index.php?t=6175 Looking at the photo. Disks are SMD, 2 * 350MB (Approx from memory). Simon -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "Well, an engineer is not concerned with the truth; that is left to philosophers and theologians: the prime concern of an engineer is the utility of the final product." Lectures on the Electrical Properties of Materials, L.Solymar, D.Walsh From arcbe2001 at yahoo.com Sat Feb 27 11:05:14 2010 From: arcbe2001 at yahoo.com (Russ Bartlett) Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2010 09:05:14 -0800 (PST) Subject: flowcharts and teaching programming/was Re: Barden programming books In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <127168.35677.qm@web110415.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Those who are familiar with JSP (Jackson Structured Programming) will know that GO To's are acceptable and also necessary.? There are occasions where a Go To is a better way of terminating a program on a fatal error for example.??? I've seen some really bad so called "structured code" so it isn't just having a program use structured statements that makes it a good program.? In the early days (1960's) there was a lot of bad coding done making it difficult to maintain the code due to poor general structure and the use of wild Go To's.? We as COBOL programmers recognized that fact and would always have any Go To's branch to an Exit Paragraph and always down the program and never back. Old conventional flow charting techniques should be avoided in trying to write structured code as a lot of better techniques have become available.? Even in the 70's I used decision tables for complex logic issues and I think I stopped using flow charts around 1970. As a final foot note during my programming years I've had to maintain many programs.? Maintainability is key.? I've changed programs that used Go To's and they were a joy to change.? I've also maintained some structured programs that were the total opposite.? Russ --- On Fri, 2/26/10, Murray McCullough wrote: From: Murray McCullough Subject: Re: flowcharts and teaching programming/was Re: Barden programming books To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Date: Friday, February 26, 2010, 5:51 PM I began programming IBM, CDC and Amdahl machines in June 1970. All assignments at the Computer Institute of Canada were graded according to the accuracy of the flowchart and the initial box as Chuck states. COBOL and other languages employed at that time employed gotos; it was a sign of sloppy programming according to purists and professors/instructors but gotos usually solved complex junction problems in an elegant fashion. BASIC and 'Small-C' used them to the same effect in the microcomputer world of late 70s. Early programming books are getting scarce yet magazines of that era had programming projects and got many of us interested in advanced programming versus machine-language programming; it beat flipping switches and assembler programming of early to mid-70s machines! Murray-- From cclist at sydex.com Sat Feb 27 11:22:27 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2010 09:22:27 -0800 Subject: flowcharts and teaching programming/was Re: Barden programming books In-Reply-To: <127168.35677.qm@web110415.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: , <127168.35677.qm@web110415.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4B88E453.25354.1B6C72@cclist.sydex.com> On 27 Feb 2010 at 9:05, Russ Bartlett wrote: > As a final foot note during my programming years I've had to maintain > many programs.? Maintainability is key.? I've changed programs that > used Go To's and they were a joy to change.? I've also maintained some > structured programs that were the total opposite.? Ah, yes, give enough ALTER statements and I can do anything.... ;) People can criticize FORTRAN coding all they want, but the opportunity for abuse in COBOL was far greater. --Chuck From trixter at oldskool.org Sat Feb 27 11:32:39 2010 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2010 11:32:39 -0600 Subject: joysticks for dos games In-Reply-To: <6dbe3c381002242125v14b5981gb767d7a2aaa7f6b2@mail.gmail.com> References: <6dbe3c381002242125v14b5981gb767d7a2aaa7f6b2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B895737.1070703@oldskool.org> On 2/24/2010 11:25 PM, Brian Lanning wrote: > I need to do a bit more research on this. But can someone suggest a good > joystick for older PCs with db15 connectors? Most of them seem to be cheesy > flight sticks. I've seen playstation style controllers with usb connectors > on them. Something like this would be ideal if it had a db15 connector. > Any suggestions? I noticed this, and around 2000 I started hoarding as many CH Products "regular joe" 2-button sticks. I have a couple of Mach 2's and Mach 3s, and I cherish them. It is easier to find some DB15 gamepads in the wild (ie. Gravis and Microsoft) which may or may not be what you want. Pros: Don't need to be calibrated. Cons: Useless for analog input. Now is a good time to pimp my ultimate joystick calibration utility for DOS: http://www.oldskool.org/pc/joycalib Source is included. I'm extremely proud of it (I cover loop-based, BIOS call, and interrupt-driven calibration, both sticks, sensing for dirty/broken sticks, etc.) -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From spectre at floodgap.com Sat Feb 27 12:23:05 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2010 10:23:05 -0800 (PST) Subject: Classilla 9.1 released In-Reply-To: <00b201cab7c7$ed35ee70$ac2f5f0a@user8459cef6fa> from Andrew Burton at "Feb 27, 10 03:45:21 pm" Message-ID: <201002271823.o1RIN556016160@floodgap.com> > Does Classilla support HTML5? Only part of it. The document tags are easy, and some already exist in the parser, but things like will be tough, and