From pat at computer-refuge.org Sun Aug 1 00:01:35 2010 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2010 01:01:35 -0400 Subject: Fwd: [comp.sys.dec] Two PDP-11/03s available In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201008010101.35901.pat@computer-refuge.org> > Free if picked up in Northwest Arkansas. These came out of > VAX-11/780 systems, so have the 11-03 in its little box and the > floppy drive in its awkward mounting and the terminator and boot ROM > is on a big VAX board. The real question, of course, is what happened to the 11/780s? Not that I really need to fit two more into my house, but still. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Aug 1 00:11:13 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2010 01:11:13 -0400 Subject: Perot collection? Message-ID: I received an email about VCFSW 1.0 on the ClassicMainframes list (the most dead list I am on, at about a message a month), and it talks about the collection of the Perot Group, down in Texas, possibly part of a tour. Does anyone know much about this collection? Supposedly it has some large IBMs. -- Will From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Aug 1 00:49:25 2010 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2010 22:49:25 -0700 Subject: Perot collection? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C550AE5.9040805@bitsavers.org> On 7/31/10 10:11 PM, William Donzelli wrote: > I received an email about VCFSW 1.0 on the ClassicMainframes list (the > most dead list I am on, at about a message a month), and it talks > about the collection of the Perot Group, down in Texas, possibly part > of a tour. Does anyone know much about this collection? Supposedly it > has some large IBMs. > > -- > Will > > There was something in the lobby of EDS. I can't find the pics right now. The weird thing was the pictures looked like it had several ENIAC racks. We've been trying to figure out if they were repos or loans. From fryers at gmail.com Sun Aug 1 02:30:44 2010 From: fryers at gmail.com (Simon Fryer) Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2010 07:30:44 +0000 Subject: DEC equipment available, UK (Cheltenham) In-Reply-To: <9ECDA8144B5F4A929D1E5D06289BA230@RodsDevSystem> References: <9ECDA8144B5F4A929D1E5D06289BA230@RodsDevSystem> Message-ID: Hi Rod, I have some bad news I am afraid. Another collector managed to put is hand up slightly faster. If he has problems with it I'll pass on your details as someone who may be interested. Thanks. Simon. On 30 July 2010 04:41, Rod Smallwood wrote: > Hi > > I don?t have one of those. > I'm located near Newbury. > However I do have a customer near Cheltenham and I'll be going there in a > week or so. > > Regards > > Rod Smallwood > > (The DecCollector) > > > Phone? 0118 971 4436 > Email?? rodsmallwood at btconnect.com > > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] > On Behalf Of Simon Fryer > Sent: 29 July 2010 13:41 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: DEC equipment available, UK (Cheltenham) > > All, > > I have a DECStation 5000/240 and a couple of Storage Expansion boxes I > would like to pass on to someone with more time and space than I have. > > The equipment is currently in Cheltenham, UK. I do a fair bit of > driving around the country so I *may* be able to deliver. > > Thanks. > > Simon -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "Well, an engineer is not concerned with the truth; that is left to philosophers and theologians: the prime concern of an engineer is the utility of the final product." Lectures on the Electrical Properties of Materials, L.Solymar, D.Walsh From pontus at Update.UU.SE Sun Aug 1 09:05:12 2010 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2010 16:05:12 +0200 Subject: Greetings fellow classiccmp'ers In-Reply-To: <2F51056DCBCE433F851B5D847E2320EC@OSA.local> References: <2F51056DCBCE433F851B5D847E2320EC@OSA.local> Message-ID: <20100801140512.GA28278@Update.UU.SE> On Sat, Jul 31, 2010 at 08:19:07PM -0500, Jay West wrote: > After a long hiatus from the hobby, I'm making some attempts to get back. Welcome back! I hope you don't drown in the mail ocean. /P From feedle at feedle.net Sun Aug 1 10:12:01 2010 From: feedle at feedle.net (A. C. Baumann) Date: Sun, 01 Aug 2010 08:12:01 -0700 Subject: retr0brite not so right? Message-ID: <49228b22-f3ea-40c8-aa4c-8069c6d39afa@email.android.com> Depends. I'd pay more for a working Replica I than a broken original. "Teo Zenios" wrote: >What is worth more, an Apple I motherboard with all original chips but maybe >non functional, and an Apple I motherboard that has been reworked to >function with later date coded chips and other parts. I would bet it is the >all original unit, and few if any collectors would even try to turn it on >anyway. > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "A. C. Baumann" >To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >Sent: Saturday, July 31, 2010 11:06 AM >Subject: Re: retr0brite not so right? > > >It is sensible to me that limited modification to maintain an operational >state wouldn't affect the collectible value much, especially compared to >"not working at all." > From jwest at classiccmp.org Sun Aug 1 11:24:17 2010 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2010 11:24:17 -0500 Subject: DG 800/1200 questions Message-ID: <42E490EB6EDD4A69A1AC3A8C992D566E@OSA.local> First on my bench will be a bunch (8 or so) of Data General 800/1200 machines and a few Nova 2's. I can think of several questions so far to get me started down the path: 1) A number of the 1200 machines have broken front panel toggle switches (the switch handle was broken off and lost). Some are spring return to center, some are just two position. Before I take the approach of robbing one of the machines for front panel switches, is there someplace that I can purchase exactly idential (both electrically and cosmetically) switches, or does some one have donor switches available for trade? I am a stickler for completely identical parts, especially for front panel switches :) I was hoping someone had been down this road before and knew the switch model #'s, etc. 2) I have quite a number (maybe around six or seven) of rackmount dual cassette tape units for these machines. I seem to recall that they use cassette tapes that are not identical to the standard common audio cassettes available today. Is anyone aware of where these special tapes can be purchased new? 3) With these machines I got a very large (several crates) library of cassette tapes as well as paper tapes, most appeared to be DG software rather than user data/backups. Are we pretty sure that most software for these machines has been archived somewhere, or should I send these tapes off to Al et. al. to have them read and saved for posterity before I put them in a questionable drive? As old as these tapes are, I wouldn't be suprised if one read was all they will allow. 4) Like #3 above, I have maybe 8 or 10 accounting storage boxes full of schematics & docs for all the circuit cards for the cpu's, interfaces, and peripherals mentioned above. I don't know what the current state of the DG archival project is. Is it likely that all these docs are already archived somewhere? Thanks in advance for any sage advice! Best, J From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Aug 1 12:29:15 2010 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 01 Aug 2010 10:29:15 -0700 Subject: DG 800/1200 questions In-Reply-To: <42E490EB6EDD4A69A1AC3A8C992D566E@OSA.local> References: <42E490EB6EDD4A69A1AC3A8C992D566E@OSA.local> Message-ID: <4C55AEEB.6080404@bitsavers.org> On 8/1/10 9:24 AM, Jay West wrote: > Are we pretty sure that most software for these machines has been archived somewhere, or should I send these tapes off to Al et. al. to have them read > I've been referring all DG software offers to Bruce Ray at Wild Hare. From nico at farumdata.dk Sun Aug 1 12:44:26 2010 From: nico at farumdata.dk (Nico de Jong) Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2010 19:44:26 +0200 Subject: DG 800/1200 questions References: <42E490EB6EDD4A69A1AC3A8C992D566E@OSA.local> Message-ID: Jay West wrote : >>2) I have quite a number (maybe around six or seven) of rackmount >> dual cassette tape units for these machines. I seem to recall that >> they use cassette tapes that are not identical to the standard >> common audio cassettes available today. Is anyone aware of where >> these special tapes can be purchased new? If they are identical to the ones I'm thinking of, they have a notch at the back. This notch of off-center. It enables you to test whether your are accessing side A or side B. I've used them extensively in Philips equipment, but they were also used by Facit and others. The capacity is 250k bytes per side, and the format is called ECMA34 Good luck From nico at farumdata.dk Sun Aug 1 12:51:58 2010 From: nico at farumdata.dk (Nico de Jong) Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2010 19:51:58 +0200 Subject: DG 800/1200 questions References: <42E490EB6EDD4A69A1AC3A8C992D566E@OSA.local> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nico de Jong" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Sunday, August 01, 2010 7:44 PM Subject: Re: DG 800/1200 questions > Jay West wrote : > >>>2) I have quite a number (maybe around six or seven) of rackmount dual >>>cassette tape units for these machines. I seem to recall that they use >>>cassette tapes that are not identical to the standard common audio >>>cassettes available today. Is anyone aware of where these special tapes >>>can be purchased new? > > If they are identical to the ones I'm thinking of, they have a notch > at the back. This notch of off-center. It enables you to test whether > your are accessing side A or side B. > I've used them extensively in Philips equipment, but they were also > used by Facit and others. > The capacity is 250k bytes per side, and the format is called ECMA34 > I seem to remember that the tape is "stiffer" then the one in audio cassettes. The magnetic coating is also different, in order to keep the bits "square". Normal audio could be used, but gives errors when reading (IIRC) From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Aug 1 13:15:58 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2010 19:15:58 +0100 (BST) Subject: retr0brite not so right? In-Reply-To: <49228b22-f3ea-40c8-aa4c-8069c6d39afa@email.android.com> from "A. C. Baumann" at Aug 1, 10 08:12:01 am Message-ID: [Apple 1, or other rare machines] > > Depends. > > I'd pay more for a working Replica I than a broken original. I probably wouldn't, but the first thing I would do with broken original is lower its value (?) bu repairing it. Of course I would use parts as close to the original as I could, and I would document the repairs. But, yes, I woudl take a soldering iron to it to get it working again. While I don;t have an Apple 1 (and don't _pariticuarly_ want one [1]). I have 1 or 2 machines that are considerably rarer. And yes, I've replaced chips in those where necessary. [1] OK, if somebody gave me one, I would accept it with thanks. And I would look after it. But if I won the lottery or something (difficult, since I don't enter :-)), I would not spend the money on an Apple 1. There are many other classic computers I would find more interesting. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Aug 1 13:58:54 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2010 19:58:54 +0100 (BST) Subject: DG 800/1200 questions In-Reply-To: from "Nico de Jong" at Aug 1, 10 07:44:26 pm Message-ID: > >>2) I have quite a number (maybe around six or seven) of rackmount > >> dual cassette tape units for these machines. I seem to recall that > >> they use cassette tapes that are not identical to the standard > >> common audio cassettes available today. Is anyone aware of where > >> these special tapes can be purchased new? > > If they are identical to the ones I'm thinking of, they have a notch > at the back. This notch of off-center. It enables you to test whether > your are accessing side A or side B. > I've used them extensively in Philips equipment, but they were also > used by Facit and others. > The capacity is 250k bytes per side, and the format is called ECMA34 While EGMA34 was a very common format for such cassettes, it was not the only one (AFAIK). I am sure I have sene at least one tape drive that uses such cassetes and uses at totally different format. The notch may well be used to ensure the cassette can only be fitted one way round with soem formats -- which use the entire width of the tape in one go. But alas I have no idea where you'd get the casssettes now. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Aug 1 14:03:05 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2010 20:03:05 +0100 (BST) Subject: DG 800/1200 questions In-Reply-To: from "Nico de Jong" at Aug 1, 10 07:44:26 pm Message-ID: > >>2) I have quite a number (maybe around six or seven) of rackmount > >> dual cassette tape units for these machines. I seem to recall that > >> they use cassette tapes that are not identical to the standard > >> common audio cassettes available today. Is anyone aware of where > >> these special tapes can be purchased new? > > If they are identical to the ones I'm thinking of, they have a notch > at the back. This notch of off-center. It enables you to test whether > your are accessing side A or side B. > I've used them extensively in Philips equipment, but they were also > used by Facit and others. > The capacity is 250k bytes per side, and the format is called ECMA34 One thing that I forgot to mention in my earlier msessag eis that the tape is differnet to that found in audio compact cassettes (I believe the data tapes have a higher coercivity). So nothcing the shells of audio cassettes is unlikely to produce reliable data tapes. -tony From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sun Aug 1 14:14:34 2010 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2010 12:14:34 -0700 Subject: DG 800/1200 questions In-Reply-To: <42E490EB6EDD4A69A1AC3A8C992D566E@OSA.local> References: <42E490EB6EDD4A69A1AC3A8C992D566E@OSA.local> Message-ID: <2093483bbc82660d0333af276b430781@cs.ubc.ca> On 2010 Aug 1, at 9:24 AM, Jay West wrote: > First on my bench will be a bunch (8 or so) of Data General 800/1200 > machines and a few Nova 2's. I can think of several questions so far > to get me started down the path: > > 1) A number of the 1200 machines have broken front panel toggle > switches (the switch handle was broken off and lost). Some are spring > return to center, some are just two position. Before I take the > approach of robbing one of the machines for front panel switches, is > there someplace that I can purchase exactly idential (both > electrically and cosmetically) switches, or does some one have donor > switches available for trade? I am a stickler for completely identical > parts, especially for front panel switches :) I was hoping someone had > been down this road before and knew the switch model #'s, etc. > Jay, is this the front panel in the first picture on the wikipedia page? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Data_General_Nova If those are 'standard size' mini-toggle switches, they may be C&K switches (typically having a red body). C&K switches tend to be well-marked with a type number stamped in the metal, and are fairly prevalent in equipment from the period. I have their catalog from the mid-70's with full listings. You might have greater luck finding replacements by specifying the manufacturer & type number. If the switch is an unusual pole arrangement or pin-type (PCB mount rather than wire eyelets) and the body of the switch is still present, it is sometimes possible to rebuild such switches with the toggle from a surplus one of more-common type. From shoppa at trailing-edge.com Sun Aug 1 14:55:10 2010 From: shoppa at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun, 01 Aug 2010 15:55:10 -0400 Subject: Greetings fellow classiccmp'ers Message-ID: <20100801195510.C7FAD1E0229@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Jay writes: > My jwest at classiccmp.org email address went unopened though, and I've > just started plowing through 22K (that's a count, not a size) of email. In the case of mailing lists I run, the spam making it through to the moderator and admin addresses (me in several instances) was truly out of control. See below for solution. > I'd like to update the classiccmp server (OS, apache, mysql, & mailman) > soon. To aid in that transition, I will probably temporarily migrate > all the sites & list to one of our clusters, load the classiccmp > server from scratch, and then migrate everything back. I'll > keep the list posted when I start down that path. Having recently migrated all the stuff on *.trailing-edge.com to a 2010 era server (as opposed to the 2000 era server it was on - previous to that it had been on an Alpha with VMS, and previous to that it had been on a VAX with VMS) with fresh installs of all the software I was pleasantly surprised with the advances that have been made in apache and mailman configuration over time especially with respect to virtual domains etc. In particular the Ubuntu distribution was very straightforward to deal with... after I had adopted to the more modern configuration techniques. And spamassassin can be better integrated with postfix and mailman than in the past, to the point where the obvious spams never have to make it to a moderator's mailbox or turn up as a bogus request to the admin address. I'm not sure you need to stage through an intermediate platform, BTW. Just bite the bullet and go to the final platform. Unless you really enjoy installing and configuring everything twice. Although I was pleasantly surprised with the new Apache etc. configuration methods I still wouldn't want to do it twice. Tim. From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sun Aug 1 15:00:20 2010 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2010 13:00:20 -0700 Subject: DG 800/1200 questions In-Reply-To: <2093483bbc82660d0333af276b430781@cs.ubc.ca> References: <42E490EB6EDD4A69A1AC3A8C992D566E@OSA.local> <2093483bbc82660d0333af276b430781@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: On 2010 Aug 1, at 12:14 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > On 2010 Aug 1, at 9:24 AM, Jay West wrote: > >> First on my bench will be a bunch (8 or so) of Data General 800/1200 >> machines and a few Nova 2's. I can think of several questions so far >> to get me started down the path: >> >> 1) A number of the 1200 machines have broken front panel toggle >> switches (the switch handle was broken off and lost). Some are spring >> return to center, some are just two position. Before I take the >> approach of robbing one of the machines for front panel switches, is >> there someplace that I can purchase exactly idential (both >> electrically and cosmetically) switches, or does some one have donor >> switches available for trade? I am a stickler for completely >> identical parts, especially for front panel switches :) I was hoping >> someone had been down this road before and knew the switch model #'s, >> etc. >> > > Jay, is this the front panel in the first picture on the wikipedia > page? > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Data_General_Nova > > If those are 'standard size' mini-toggle switches, they may be C&K > switches (typically having a red body). > > C&K switches tend to be well-marked with a type number stamped in the > metal, and are fairly prevalent in equipment from the period. I have > their catalog from the mid-70's with full listings. You might have > greater luck finding replacements by specifying the manufacturer & > type number. (Sorry, looking at your message again I see you were asking for the model #'s.) If they are C&K switches: http://www.ck-components.com/product-matrix,21144,en.html probably in the 7000 series, apparently they are still available: http://www.ck-components.com/7000/toggle,10598,en.html The full catalog is there under "Download 7000 catalog pages". A bazillion options. From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Sun Aug 1 14:37:26 2010 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2010 21:37:26 +0200 Subject: DG 800/1200 questions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >> >>2) I have quite a number (maybe around six or seven) of rackmount >> >> dual cassette tape units for these machines. I seem to recall that >> >> they use cassette tapes that are not identical to the standard >> >> common audio cassettes available today. Is anyone aware of where >> >> these special tapes can be purchased new? >> >> If they are identical to the ones I'm thinking of, they have a notch >> at the back. This notch of off-center. It enables you to test whether >> your are accessing side A or side B. >> I've used them extensively in Philips equipment, but they were also >> used by Facit and others. >> The capacity is 250k bytes per side, and the format is called ECMA34 > > While EGMA34 was a very common format for such cassettes, it was not the > only one (AFAIK). I am sure I have sene at least one tape drive that uses > such cassetes and uses at totally different format. The notch may well be > used to ensure the cassette can only be fitted one way round with soem > formats -- which use the entire width of the tape in one go. > > But alas I have no idea where you'd get the casssettes now. > > -tony I am not sure, but is it possible that the DIGITAL TU60 DECassette uses the same type of tape? I have a picture of such a tape on my site (www.pdp-11.nl/peripherals/tape/tu60-info.html). I have just a few of them (IIRC, I'd have to check on that). If those tapes can be used on DG, I might make one or two available for you Jay. - Henk. From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sun Aug 1 16:23:28 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2010 14:23:28 -0700 Subject: M20 Olivetti on German eBay In-Reply-To: References: <42E490EB6EDD4A69A1AC3A8C992D566E@OSA.local>, <2093483bbc82660d0333af276b430781@cs.ubc.ca>, Message-ID: Hi For anyone that might be interested, there is an M20 up for auction on the German eBay. These are not your normal PC. They used a Z8000 processor instead of the X86. It needs some repair and a monitor but is still a cool machine. The monitor is a little tricky but I'm told an M24 monitor can be wired to work. I have two of these in my collection and I have one working with a hard disk. I've got both PCOS and CP/M-8000 working on mine. Dwight From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sun Aug 1 16:37:05 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2010 14:37:05 -0700 Subject: Greetings fellow classiccmp'ers In-Reply-To: <2F51056DCBCE433F851B5D847E2320EC@OSA.local> References: <2F51056DCBCE433F851B5D847E2320EC@OSA.local> Message-ID: > From: jwest at classiccmp.org > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Greetings fellow classiccmp'ers > Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2010 20:19:07 -0500 > ---snip--- > I haven't touched anything classiccmp related in eons. While my beloved HP 21MX systems and DEC systems are all still pristine, categorized, and running - I have fallen fall short in the other areas of my collection (mostly lots of DG and one Microdata). I hope to focus on the DG side of my collection for a while and will no doubt be asking for help here as that's a completely new area for me. As always, if anyone needs any help with HP 21MX related items I'd be glad to help (as much as my rusty memory will allow). > Hi Jay I have my 21MX on my list to play with. I bought a 488 board for it that I'd intended to create a disk system using a PC. I'm in the middle of other projects ( most not classic computers ) but hope to spend time playing with my 21MX. I've written a simple assembler on my PC to create binaries that I'll use to bootstrap things. I could use some register information on the 488 card I got for the 21MX but not found any online for it yet. I forget the board number but can look it up when I get back to my storage. Dwight From jwest at classiccmp.org Sun Aug 1 17:11:18 2010 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2010 17:11:18 -0500 Subject: Greetings fellow classiccmp'ers References: <2F51056DCBCE433F851B5D847E2320EC@OSA.local>, <4C547011.8091.233B62E@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: I love the captcha/token idea... on the other hand it does make mailman a system that's no longer mail-only. Might go that route though... J From jwest at classiccmp.org Sun Aug 1 17:12:52 2010 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2010 17:12:52 -0500 Subject: Greetings fellow classiccmp'ers References: <2F51056DCBCE433F851B5D847E2320EC@OSA.local>, <4C547011.8091.233B62E@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <5BEE34D5E7A84BF496A3A12A1C0ABDDB@OSA.local> David wrote... > Before getting complex for the user, how about running each subscribe > attempt through a black hole lookup? If it passes, then send the > subscribe attempt to the moderator. The spam front end already does a scad of various RBL-type lookups before sending it through. J From jwest at classiccmp.org Sun Aug 1 17:18:17 2010 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2010 17:18:17 -0500 Subject: Greetings fellow classiccmp'ers References: <2F51056DCBCE433F851B5D847E2320EC@OSA.local> <4C54FD2B.7060601@vaxen.net> Message-ID: Doc wrote... > "We thought you was DEAD!" :^) While I wasn't reading my email, I was still on the classiccmp IRC channel pretty much every nite. I heard about Evan's rumor back then, as well as whatever was going on the list ;) J From brain at jbrain.com Sun Aug 1 17:22:01 2010 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Sun, 01 Aug 2010 17:22:01 -0500 Subject: Greetings fellow classiccmp'ers In-Reply-To: <20100801195510.C7FAD1E0229@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> References: <20100801195510.C7FAD1E0229@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <4C55F389.1040504@jbrain.com> On 8/1/2010 2:55 PM, Tim Shoppa wrote: > I'd like to update the classiccmp server (OS, apache, mysql, & mailman) >> soon. To aid in that transition, I will probably temporarily migrate >> all the sites& list to one of our clusters, load the classiccmp >> server from scratch, and then migrate everything back. I'll >> keep the list posted when I start down that path. >> > Having recently migrated all the stuff on *.trailing-edge.com to a 2010 > era server (as opposed to the 2000 era server it was on - previous > to that it had been on an Alpha with VMS, and previous to that it > had been on a VAX with VMS) with > fresh installs of all the software I was pleasantly > surprised with the advances that have been made in apache and mailman > configuration over time especially with respect to virtual domains etc. > In particular the Ubuntu distribution was very straightforward to deal with... > after I had adopted to the more modern configuration techniques. > On the Google Groups list I manage, the admin interface has an option to "moderate first post". I suspect it puts all new users in a probation list, and then whitelists them once the moderator has moderated their first post to the list. I wonder if the mailman/etc. solutions have something similar. Jim From jwest at classiccmp.org Sun Aug 1 17:33:32 2010 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2010 17:33:32 -0500 Subject: Greetings fellow classiccmp'ers References: <20100801195510.C7FAD1E0229@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: It was written.... > And spamassassin can be better integrated with postfix and mailman than > in the past, to the point where the obvious spams never have to make it > to a moderator's mailbox or turn up as a bogus request to the admin > address. Got all the latest stuff running on a different machine, but FYI I'm a sendmail freak :) > I'm not sure you need to stage through an intermediate platform, BTW. > Just bite the bullet and go to the final platform. Unless you really > enjoy installing and configuring everything twice. Although I was > pleasantly surprised with the new Apache etc. configuration methods > I still wouldn't want to do it twice. No, not doing it twice. One of my companies is a hosting company, so I don't have to install anything twice. Just migrates sites & services to one of the machines in our of our clusters, then reload louie.classiccmp.org, then migrate them back :) J From jwest at classiccmp.org Sun Aug 1 17:37:12 2010 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2010 17:37:12 -0500 Subject: DG 800/1200 questions References: <42E490EB6EDD4A69A1AC3A8C992D566E@OSA.local> <2093483bbc82660d0333af276b430781@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <72FEA8E09ADB410EBC8C3D43574690AD@OSA.local> Brent wrote... > Jay, is this the front panel in the first picture on the wikipedia page? > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Data_General_Nova Yep, that's the ones. > If those are 'standard size' mini-toggle switches, they may be C&K > switches (typically having a red body). Oh, I'm sure they are C&K... I was just hoping someone already knew the correct part number for the identical switches :) J From jwest at classiccmp.org Sun Aug 1 17:42:34 2010 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2010 17:42:34 -0500 Subject: DG 800/1200 questions References: Message-ID: <72C33D549643461F9D2D1C8BE90348DE@OSA.local> Tony wrote... > While EGMA34 was a very common format for such cassettes, it was not the > only one (AFAIK). I am sure I have sene at least one tape drive that uses > such cassetes and uses at totally different format. The notch may well be > used to ensure the cassette can only be fitted one way round with soem > formats -- which use the entire width of the tape in one go. >From what I skimmed in some docs, it looks like these DG tape units use the entire width of the tape. But no way to fake higher coercivity :\ > But alas I have no idea where you'd get the casssettes now. These units are in mint shape, was hoping they wouldn't be paperweights :\ J From cclist at sydex.com Sun Aug 1 18:07:35 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 01 Aug 2010 16:07:35 -0700 Subject: DG 800/1200 questions In-Reply-To: <72C33D549643461F9D2D1C8BE90348DE@OSA.local> References: , <72C33D549643461F9D2D1C8BE90348DE@OSA.local> Message-ID: <4C559BC7.12832.1F76A06@cclist.sydex.com> On 1 Aug 2010 at 17:42, Jay West wrote: > >From what I skimmed in some docs, it looks like these DG tape units > >use the > entire width of the tape. But no way to fake higher coercivity :\ > > > But alas I have no idea where you'd get the casssettes now. > These units are in mint shape, was hoping they wouldn't be > paperweights :\ See http://tinyurl.com/24z4aoc Are we talking about saturation remanence or coercivity? The Hc of computer and audio tapes are approximately the same, but the Mr is quite a bit different. On the other hand, if ordinary gamma ferric oxide audio tape doesn't work, CrO2 audio tape might be an option. FWIW, Chuck From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Aug 1 18:13:24 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2010 19:13:24 -0400 Subject: Perot collection? In-Reply-To: <4C550AE5.9040805@bitsavers.org> References: <4C550AE5.9040805@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: > There was something in the lobby of EDS. I can't find the pics right now. > The weird thing was the pictures looked like it had several ENIAC racks. > We've been trying to figure out if they were repos or loans. >From the site: "SPECIAL NOTICE: The Perot group has an interesting collection in Plano, TX that includes many IBM machines. It also includes portions of the original ENIAC. If there is sufficient interest we will be able to arrange a tour of this facility either on Friday, August 6th or Monday, August 9th. Arrangements will have to be made in advance for each attendee, so be sure to contact us early if you are interested." -- Will From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Aug 1 18:26:03 2010 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 01 Aug 2010 16:26:03 -0700 Subject: Greetings fellow classiccmp'ers In-Reply-To: <2F51056DCBCE433F851B5D847E2320EC@OSA.local> References: <2F51056DCBCE433F851B5D847E2320EC@OSA.local> Message-ID: <4C56028B.4060808@bitsavers.org> On 7/31/10 6:19 PM, Jay West wrote: > I'd like to update the classiccmp server (OS, apache, mysql,& mailman) soon. Looks like the Opteron has been working pretty well. One thing that would be nice is to have web stats again. They haven't worked since the server move. From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Aug 1 18:27:36 2010 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 01 Aug 2010 16:27:36 -0700 Subject: Perot collection? In-Reply-To: References: <4C550AE5.9040805@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4C5602E8.60104@bitsavers.org> On 8/1/10 4:13 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >> There was something in the lobby of EDS. I can't find the pics right now. >> The weird thing was the pictures looked like it had several ENIAC racks. >> We've been trying to figure out if they were repos or loans. > >> From the site: > URL? > "SPECIAL NOTICE: The Perot group has an interesting collection in > Plano, TX that includes many IBM machines. It also includes portions > of the original ENIAC. We would be VERY interested in knowing which racks they have. From evan at snarc.net Sun Aug 1 18:39:26 2010 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Sun, 01 Aug 2010 19:39:26 -0400 Subject: Perot collection? In-Reply-To: <4C5602E8.60104@bitsavers.org> References: <4C550AE5.9040805@bitsavers.org> <4C5602E8.60104@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4C5605AE.3070905@snarc.net> > >> "SPECIAL NOTICE: The Perot group has an interesting collection in >> Plano, TX that includes many IBM machines. It also includes portions >> of the original ENIAC. > > We would be VERY interested in knowing which racks they have. This might help: http://www.flickr.com/photos/rboyett/sets/72157600358828523/ From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Aug 1 19:43:41 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2010 20:43:41 -0400 Subject: Perot collection? In-Reply-To: <4C5602E8.60104@bitsavers.org> References: <4C550AE5.9040805@bitsavers.org> <4C5602E8.60104@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: > URL? http://mit-a.com/VCF1.shtml -- Will From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Sun Aug 1 20:13:39 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2010 22:13:39 -0300 Subject: DG 800/1200 questions References: Message-ID: <062001cb31e0$93a28c90$0600000a@portajara> > One thing that I forgot to mention in my earlier msessag eis that the > tape is differnet to that found in audio compact cassettes (I believe the > data tapes have a higher coercivity). So nothcing the shells of audio > cassettes is unlikely to produce reliable data tapes. High-quality VHS video tape? Or Metal cassetes? From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Sun Aug 1 20:15:20 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2010 22:15:20 -0300 Subject: DG 800/1200 questions References: <72C33D549643461F9D2D1C8BE90348DE@OSA.local> Message-ID: <062101cb31e0$9511acf0$0600000a@portajara> >>From what I skimmed in some docs, it looks like these DG tape units use >>the > entire width of the tape. But no way to fake higher coercivity :\ You can always mod the cassete drive :) But why not use higher coercivity tape anyways? From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Aug 1 20:37:51 2010 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 01 Aug 2010 18:37:51 -0700 Subject: Perot collection? In-Reply-To: <4C5605AE.3070905@snarc.net> References: <4C550AE5.9040805@bitsavers.org> <4C5602E8.60104@bitsavers.org> <4C5605AE.3070905@snarc.net> Message-ID: <4C56216F.2050903@bitsavers.org> On 8/1/10 4:39 PM, Evan Koblentz wrote: > >> >>> "SPECIAL NOTICE: The Perot group has an interesting collection in >>> Plano, TX that includes many IBM machines. It also includes portions >>> of the original ENIAC. >> >> We would be VERY interested in knowing which racks they have. > > This might help: > http://www.flickr.com/photos/rboyett/sets/72157600358828523/ > > What is curious is this claims there is only one panel in private hands. http://rfidsrv.eecs.umich.edu/csebuilding/doku.php?id=1667 From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sun Aug 1 20:52:32 2010 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2010 18:52:32 -0700 Subject: Perot collection? In-Reply-To: <4C5605AE.3070905@snarc.net> References: <4C550AE5.9040805@bitsavers.org> <4C5602E8.60104@bitsavers.org> <4C5605AE.3070905@snarc.net> Message-ID: On 2010 Aug 1, at 4:39 PM, Evan Koblentz wrote: >>> "SPECIAL NOTICE: The Perot group has an interesting collection in >>> Plano, TX that includes many IBM machines. It also includes portions >>> of the original ENIAC. >> >> We would be VERY interested in knowing which racks they have. > > This might help: > http://www.flickr.com/photos/rboyett/sets/72157600358828523/ My gosh, how did those fly under the radar for so long? I take it the display is not normally accessible to the public. That's another 6 of the 40 racks of ENIAC. How much of ENIAC is known then to still exist? Some of the blinkenlights appear to be on in the photos, I wonder if or how much the units have been modified to accomplish this. From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Sun Aug 1 22:34:11 2010 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2010 23:34:11 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Mystery print drum In-Reply-To: <4C5605AE.3070905@snarc.net> References: <4C550AE5.9040805@bitsavers.org> <4C5602E8.60104@bitsavers.org> <4C5605AE.3070905@snarc.net> Message-ID: I have an unidentified drum from a line printer, 120 columns and 64 characters. The characters are the same on each horizontal line, and the drum is one solid piece. Can anyone hazard a guess as to which printer this might fit? There are no part numbers on it. Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Sun Aug 1 22:39:51 2010 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2010 23:39:51 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Mystery print drum In-Reply-To: References: <4C550AE5.9040805@bitsavers.org> <4C5602E8.60104@bitsavers.org> <4C5605AE.3070905@snarc.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 1 Aug 2010, Mike Loewen wrote: > I have an unidentified drum from a line printer, 120 columns and 64 > characters. The characters are the same on each horizontal line, and the > drum is one solid piece. Can anyone hazard a guess as to which printer this > might fit? There are no part numbers on it. Oops, that should be 160 columns, not 120. Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From legalize at xmission.com Sun Aug 1 23:30:24 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 01 Aug 2010 22:30:24 -0600 Subject: wall of sgi photos Message-ID: I finally got around to taking some photos of the warehouse where my collection is stored (along with my friend's arcade game collection and a computer recycling outfit). Most of my stuff isn't really in good "show" condition right now as I'm trying to organize my friend's arcade machines and my space is temporarily filled with some of his overflow stuff to make holes so I can move machines around. At any rate, you can get a good view of my Tektronix storage tube terminals and my wall of sgi. Also, there are some photos of the Eve cabinets for Jos Dreesen. Sorry, just one side of the exterior of the cabinets for now, board photos to come later when things aren't so cramped. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From teoz at neo.rr.com Sun Aug 1 23:38:31 2010 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2010 00:38:31 -0400 Subject: wall of sgi photos References: Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Richard" To: Sent: Monday, August 02, 2010 12:30 AM Subject: wall of sgi photos >I finally got around to taking some photos of the warehouse where my > collection is stored (along with my friend's arcade game collection > and a computer recycling outfit). Most of my stuff isn't really in > good "show" condition right now as I'm trying to organize my friend's > arcade machines and my space is temporarily filled with some of his > overflow stuff to make holes so I can move machines around. At any > rate, you can get a good view of my Tektronix storage tube terminals > and my wall of sgi. Also, there are some photos of the Eve cabinets > for Jos Dreesen. Sorry, just one side of the exterior of the cabinets > for now, board photos to come later when things aren't so cramped. > > > > -- Those arcade machines look nice, does he play them at all? And you have quite a few SGI machines. From cclist at sydex.com Sun Aug 1 23:40:31 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 01 Aug 2010 21:40:31 -0700 Subject: Mystery print drum In-Reply-To: References: , , Message-ID: <4C55E9CF.5920.3283BF5@cclist.sydex.com> On 1 Aug 2010 at 23:39, Mike Loewen wrote: > On Sun, 1 Aug 2010, Mike Loewen wrote: > > > I have an unidentified drum from a line printer, 120 columns and > > 64 > > characters. The characters are the same on each horizontal line, > > and the drum is one solid piece. Can anyone hazard a guess as to > > which printer this might fit? There are no part numbers on it. > > Oops, that should be 160 columns, not 120. Univac and CDC both had drum printers in the 60s/70s with 6-bit character sets. --Chuck From legalize at xmission.com Sun Aug 1 23:47:52 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 01 Aug 2010 22:47:52 -0600 Subject: wall of sgi photos In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 02 Aug 2010 00:38:31 -0400. Message-ID: In article , "Teo Zenios" writes: > Those arcade machines look nice, does he play them at all? The ones that he plays regularly are not stored at the warehouse :-). The warehouse isn't really wired with sufficient power for these and a number of these need some repairs before they would function again. Some need minor repair, some need major repair. > And you have quite a few SGI machines. Yes, I'm in the same boat when it comes to power. If we already had appropriate power and HVAC in this location, I'd have made the machines operational again. However, we currently rent this place and we are looking to move to a location where we are buying and not renting. At that point I would consider investments in infrastructure, but I don't feel like improving a place we're just going to leave anyway. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From curt at atarimuseum.com Mon Aug 2 00:33:48 2010 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2010 01:33:48 -0400 Subject: wall of sgi photos In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C5658BC.3010709@atarimuseum.com> Wow!!! picking jaw off the desk now.... Richard wrote: > I finally got around to taking some photos of the warehouse where my > collection is stored (along with my friend's arcade game collection > and a computer recycling outfit). Most of my stuff isn't really in > good "show" condition right now as I'm trying to organize my friend's > arcade machines and my space is temporarily filled with some of his > overflow stuff to make holes so I can move machines around. At any > rate, you can get a good view of my Tektronix storage tube terminals > and my wall of sgi. Also, there are some photos of the Eve cabinets > for Jos Dreesen. Sorry, just one side of the exterior of the cabinets > for now, board photos to come later when things aren't so cramped. > > > > From pontus at Update.UU.SE Mon Aug 2 01:35:51 2010 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2010 08:35:51 +0200 Subject: wall of sgi photos In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20100802063551.GA13677@Update.UU.SE> On Sun, Aug 01, 2010 at 10:30:24PM -0600, Richard wrote: > > Wow! The SGI section makes me drool a bit. Do you have the skins for your Crimson and Challenge desksides? If you don't mind I'll forward this link to the nekochan forums. The minirack with 9-track tape and RX-80, is it a round hole rack? And if so, where can I get one? The Aesthedes 2D system looks impressive, it has an Apple apple on it, can you tell us more about it? Thanks for sharing, Pontus. From legalize at xmission.com Mon Aug 2 01:40:51 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2010 00:40:51 -0600 Subject: wall of sgi photos In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 02 Aug 2010 08:35:51 +0200. <20100802063551.GA13677@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: In article <20100802063551.GA13677 at Update.UU.SE>, Pontus Pihlgren writes: > On Sun, Aug 01, 2010 at 10:30:24PM -0600, Richard wrote: > > > > > > Wow! The SGI section makes me drool a bit. Do you have the skins for > your Crimson and Challenge desksides? If you don't mind I'll forward > this link to the nekochan forums. Got skins for the Crimson, but missing a few pieces for the Onyx deskside (Challenge is XL). I already posted to nekochan :-) > The minirack with 9-track tape and RX-80, is it a round hole rack? And > if so, where can I get one? I picked it up in an equipment waterfall process from an employer. I imagine you can get them commercially or on ebay. Its nothing special. It does have wheels, so that's nice. > The Aesthedes 2D system looks impressive, it has an Apple apple on it, > can you tell us more about it? The apple sticker was just placed on there; it has nothing to do with apple. Its a vertical market turnkey system for 2D graphic design from the mid 1980s. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From rodsmallwood at btconnect.com Mon Aug 2 01:46:06 2010 From: rodsmallwood at btconnect.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2010 06:46:06 -0000 Subject: Pronouncing acronyms (was Re: DEC acronyms) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The ones I do remember 1. BA11-ES always referred to as a Balls box 2. RSTS as Ristus 3. RSX as Our sex Plus those pronounced as written MUMPS, HASP, KMON, RMON Regards ? Rod Smallwood ? ? -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Ethan Dicks Sent: 30 July 2010 21:20 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Pronouncing acronyms (was Re: DEC acronyms) On 7/30/10, Tony Duell wrote: >> One of my "hobbies" (some >> might call it an obsession) is figuring a way to pronounce any given >> acronym as a word.... > > :-) > > I've been know to refer to the 5150 as the 'I-Bum Puck' :-). The first > 'I' is short --'e' not 'eye' as I pronounce it... Here, I've heard "Ih-bem Peck" (same 'i' sound you describe), but it was usually used in a less-than-flattering context. The most gratuitous example of this I can recall is the Sesame Street character Big Bird attempting to pronounce the 26-letter Western alphabet as a single word ("ab-cer-def-gee-jeckle-mernop-kur-stoov-wik-siz" - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ABC%E2%80%93DEF%E2%80%93GHI) -ethan From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Aug 2 09:55:12 2010 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2010 08:55:12 -0600 Subject: DG 800/1200 questions In-Reply-To: <42E490EB6EDD4A69A1AC3A8C992D566E@OSA.local> References: <42E490EB6EDD4A69A1AC3A8C992D566E@OSA.local> Message-ID: <4C56DC50.4050104@jetnet.ab.ca> Jay West wrote: > 2) I have quite a number (maybe around six or seven) of rackmount > dual cassette tape units for these machines. I seem to recall that > they use cassette tapes that are not identical to the standard common > audio cassettes available today. Is anyone aware of where these > special tapes can be purchased new? Would not the tapes used for the C64 be the same? All the other tapes I can think of is for audio, not digital recording. If you do find tapes it would be a box of 24 or so in some warehouse. Ben. From trag at io.com Mon Aug 2 10:03:30 2010 From: trag at io.com (Jeff Walther) Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2010 10:03:30 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Apple/Mac floppy questions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2010 20:39:37 +0100 (BST) > From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) > One thing to watch for are the little 20-way Apple ribbon cables that > link these drives to the mainboard. They are not what they seem -- in > particlar 1 ro 2 wries are not wires at all, but solid plastic, so those > pins of the connectors are not linked. If they are, then all sorts of odd > things happen (Eject motor runs continuously???) > > I beelive there are at least 2 versions of the calbe (for double sided > and high density drives>?, with different coloured pin 1 tracers. A Mac > enthusiast may know more. I don't remember all the details. I do remember that there is a cable with a yellow stripe on pin 1 and another version of the cable with a red stripe. If you install the wrong cable (can't remember whether it's red for yellow or yellow for red) the eject motor does indeed run continuously. It doesn't seem to damage the drive; I never let it run more than a few seconds. So it's easy enough to identify and correct. Jeff Walther From gyorpb at gmail.com Mon Aug 2 10:12:05 2010 From: gyorpb at gmail.com (Joost van de Griek) Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2010 17:12:05 +0200 Subject: DG 800/1200 questions In-Reply-To: <4C56DC50.4050104@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <42E490EB6EDD4A69A1AC3A8C992D566E@OSA.local> <4C56DC50.4050104@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Aug 2, 2010, at 16:55, Ben wrote: > Jay West wrote: > >> 2) I have quite a number (maybe around six or seven) of rackmount >> dual cassette tape units for these machines. I seem to recall that >> they use cassette tapes that are not identical to the standard common >> audio cassettes available today. Is anyone aware of where these >> special tapes can be purchased new? > > Would not the tapes used for the C64 be the same? > All the other tapes I can think of is for audio, not digital > recording. If you do find tapes it would be a box of 24 or > so in some warehouse. No, not the same. C64, like pretty much every other 1980's home computer, used plain (Type I, ferro) audio cassettes; but I distinctly remember seeing tape streamer tapes listed in catalogues with the same mechanical characteristics as audio cassettes, bar for a cutout in the center of the long, narrower side of the housing. This presumably to prevent regular audio cassettes from being used in the tape drives. I'd assume they had at least different magnetic properties, if not minor mechanical differences, too. .tsooJ From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Mon Aug 2 10:13:49 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2010 16:13:49 +0100 Subject: retr0brite not so right? In-Reply-To: <49228b22-f3ea-40c8-aa4c-8069c6d39afa@email.android.com> References: <49228b22-f3ea-40c8-aa4c-8069c6d39afa@email.android.com> Message-ID: <4C56E0AD.4000408@philpem.me.uk> On 01/08/10 16:12, A. C. Baumann wrote: > Depends. > > I'd pay more for a working Replica I than a broken original. I'd take the broken original, then the first thing I'd to is bring out the testgear and fix the thing. I'd keep the original parts with it, but IMHO a machine is worth more if it's actually working... -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Mon Aug 2 10:22:39 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2010 16:22:39 +0100 Subject: retr0brite not so right? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C56E2BF.1080002@philpem.me.uk> On 01/08/10 19:15, Tony Duell wrote: (re: Apple 1) > [1] OK, if somebody gave me one, I would accept it with thanks. And I > would look after it. But if I won the lottery or something (difficult, > since I don't enter :-)), I would not spend the money on an Apple 1. > There are many other classic computers I would find more interesting. Same here. If I won the lottery I'd be building up a half-decent home machine shop... My interest is in the old single-board and embedded machines. I'm not too interested in the Apple I, but I do find (for example) the Acorn System series, Elektor Junior, Synertek Sym-1, MOS KIM-1 and Rockwell AIM-65 interesting. Not interesting enough to pay the stupid money they're selling for on Ebay, but interesting enough that I might spend a few evenings entering the design into Quartus and doing an FPGA re-implementation, or building a clone on Veroboard. (But of course if someone offered to sell me one of the above for what I thought was a 'reasonable price', I wouldn't say no, even if I had to spend a month of weekends doing debugging and component-level repair work) Exceptions would be the Apple II and Acorn BBC Micro. The AII on the grounds that I think it's neat how the parts count was pushed so low (especially on things like the disc controller) and the Acorn because it was pretty much the first "real" computer I used... -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From afra at aurigae.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 2 10:38:56 2010 From: afra at aurigae.demon.co.uk (afra at aurigae.demon.co.uk) Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2010 16:38:56 +0100 Subject: Pronouncing acronyms (was Re: DEC acronyms) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20100802163856.195860ysz2p76k4c@aurigae.demon.co.uk> Quoting Rod Smallwood : > 3. RSX as Our sex Heheh the 6809 actually had a SEX mnemonic SignEXtend :) > Plus those pronounced as written MUMPS, HASP, KMON, RMON then there's my pet hate at the moment SATA pronounced sarta !!!! Phill. ---------------------------------------------------------------- This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. From ploopster at gmail.com Mon Aug 2 10:59:42 2010 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2010 11:59:42 -0400 Subject: DG 800/1200 questions In-Reply-To: References: <42E490EB6EDD4A69A1AC3A8C992D566E@OSA.local> <4C56DC50.4050104@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4C56EB6E.4090501@gmail.com> Joost van de Griek wrote: > No, not the same. C64, like pretty much every other 1980's home > computer, used plain (Type I, ferro) audio cassettes; but I distinctly > remember seeing tape streamer tapes listed in catalogues with the same > mechanical characteristics as audio cassettes, bar for a cutout in the > center of the long, narrower side of the housing. This presumably to > prevent regular audio cassettes from being used in the tape drives. I'd > assume they had at least different magnetic properties, if not minor > mechanical differences, too. With my Sinclair, I've been using a midrange home stereo tape deck to store data. The deck has bias settings for ferrous, chromium dioxide and metal tapes. I've had distinctly better luck with data lifetimes on metal cassettes. Peace... Sridhar From cclist at sydex.com Mon Aug 2 11:14:18 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2010 09:14:18 -0700 Subject: Mystery print drum In-Reply-To: <4C55E9CF.5920.3283BF5@cclist.sydex.com> References: , , <4C55E9CF.5920.3283BF5@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4C568C6A.3061.6858E@cclist.sydex.com> > On 1 Aug 2010 at 23:39, Mike Loewen wrote: > > > On Sun, 1 Aug 2010, Mike Loewen wrote: > > > > > I have an unidentified drum from a line printer, 120 columns and > > > 64 > > > characters. The characters are the same on each horizontal line, > > > and the drum is one solid piece. Can anyone hazard a guess as to > > > which printer this might fit? There are no part numbers on it. > > > > Oops, that should be 160 columns... An afterthought--it would be useful to list the non-alphanumeric characters. They were far from standard in the old days and sometimes you could tell a maker by the character set. --Chuck From shumaker at att.net Mon Aug 2 12:14:31 2010 From: shumaker at att.net (steve shumaker) Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2010 13:14:31 -0400 Subject: intel MSD-720 Message-ID: <4C56FCF7.4020907@att.net> can anyone shed some light on what this might be: Floppy Disk Drives (internal) 8" dual drive console, Intel MSD-720 item is listed in a large Craigs List ad that's been up essentially unchanged for months attempts to get more info out of the seller have been less than successful. the closest thing I can find is a reference to an "option 720" on classiccomp's link to Joe's Intel MDS page. MDS 200 series apparently had something called "option 720" but there's little info about it other than it appears to be an external floppy unit. thoughts welcome.... Steve From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 2 12:30:17 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2010 18:30:17 +0100 (BST) Subject: DG 800/1200 questions In-Reply-To: from "Henk Gooijen" at Aug 1, 10 09:37:26 pm Message-ID: > I am not sure, but is it possible that the DIGITAL TU60 DECassette > uses the same type of tape? I have a picture of such a tape on my I am almost sure the TU60 does use the same type of tapes... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 2 13:21:01 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2010 19:21:01 +0100 (BST) Subject: DG 800/1200 questions In-Reply-To: <72C33D549643461F9D2D1C8BE90348DE@OSA.local> from "Jay West" at Aug 1, 10 05:42:34 pm Message-ID: > > But alas I have no idea where you'd get the casssettes now. > These units are in mint shape, was hoping they wouldn't be paperweights :\ How many tapes do you need? It's possible there are a few around in people's junk boxes, if you need <10 or so... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 2 13:27:36 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2010 19:27:36 +0100 (BST) Subject: DG 800/1200 questions In-Reply-To: <062001cb31e0$93a28c90$0600000a@portajara> from "Alexandre Souza - Listas" at Aug 1, 10 10:13:39 pm Message-ID: > > data tapes have a higher coercivity). So nothcing the shells of audio > > cassettes is unlikely to produce reliable data tapes. What I meant to say was that nothing that's supplied in normal audio cassette sheels seems to work as reliable data tape in ECMA34 (or similar) drives... > > High-quality VHS video tape? Or Metal cassetes? I have never tried 'metal' tapes... maybne worth a try... And if you want to try slicing down 1/2" video tape into the right width for these cassetes, I wish you luck :-)) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 2 13:24:58 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2010 19:24:58 +0100 (BST) Subject: DG 800/1200 questions In-Reply-To: <4C559BC7.12832.1F76A06@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Aug 1, 10 04:07:35 pm Message-ID: > Are we talking about saturation remanence or coercivity? The Hc of > computer and audio tapes are approximately the same, but the Mr is > quite a bit different. I'd assumed it was the coercivity that was differnt, but mayne it's the remanence. I will admit I've not done any measurement :-). I am pretty sure that audio cassetes (even with a notch cut in them) do not work well in ECMA34 tape drives. And that the data tapes make lousy audio tapes at any normal bias setting. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 2 13:32:44 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2010 19:32:44 +0100 (BST) Subject: DG 800/1200 questions In-Reply-To: from "Joost van de Griek" at Aug 2, 10 05:12:05 pm Message-ID: > No, not the same. C64, like pretty much every other 1980's home > computer, used plain (Type I, ferro) audio cassettes; but I distinctly > remember seeing tape streamer tapes listed in catalogues with the same > mechanical characteristics as audio cassettes, bar for a cutout in the > center of the long, narrower side of the housing. This presumably to > prevent regular audio cassettes from being used in the tape drives. > I'd assume they had at least different magnetic properties, if not > minor mechanical differences, too. AFAIK apart from that notch, they are mechanically the same -- same positieond of spools, capstan holes, head access hole, etc. Same design of spool/hub. Same position of the write-protect hole. I don't think there were any mirros for optical sensorts in the data cassetes either, but they may well have detected the clear leader by reflecitons off the cassette shell, so only light-coloured cassettes would work. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 2 13:36:38 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2010 19:36:38 +0100 (BST) Subject: retr0brite not so right? In-Reply-To: <4C56E2BF.1080002@philpem.me.uk> from "Philip Pemberton" at Aug 2, 10 04:22:39 pm Message-ID: > > On 01/08/10 19:15, Tony Duell wrote: > (re: Apple 1) > > [1] OK, if somebody gave me one, I would accept it with thanks. And I > > would look after it. But if I won the lottery or something (difficult, > > since I don't enter :-)), I would not spend the money on an Apple 1. > > There are many other classic computers I would find more interesting. > > Same here. If I won the lottery I'd be building up a half-decent home > machine shop... Even if I had to spend it on classic computers, the Apple 1 would not be high up the list :-). Certain HP models (not particularly rare [1]) would be... [1] Amazingly, for all I have a fair number of HP machines, I have never managed to obtain an HP1000 of any version, for ecample... > My interest is in the old single-board and embedded machines. I'm not > too interested in the Apple I, but I do find (for example) the Acorn Err, the Apple 1 is a single-board machine :-) > Exceptions would be the Apple II and Acorn BBC Micro. The AII on the > grounds that I think it's neat how the parts count was pushed so low > (especially on things like the disc controller) and the Acorn because it > was pretty much the first "real" computer I used... Hmm, we will ahve to agree to disagree, I think. I regard the Apple ][ as one of the worst designs ever because it's such a minimal parts count (IMHO a few more chips would ahve made it a lot better). But I feel the BBC Micro is one of the best (if not _the_ best) 8 bitters. A very elegant design... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 2 13:40:05 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2010 19:40:05 +0100 (BST) Subject: Pronouncing acronyms (was Re: DEC acronyms) In-Reply-To: <20100802163856.195860ysz2p76k4c@aurigae.demon.co.uk> from "afra@aurigae.demon.co.uk" at Aug 2, 10 04:38:56 pm Message-ID: > > Quoting Rod Smallwood : > > > 3. RSX as Our sex > > Heheh the 6809 actually had a SEX mnemonic SignEXtend :) As every UK hacker knew in the 1980s, 'you can have SEX with a Dragon, but not with an Apple' (the Dragon has a 6809 CPU, the Apple ][ hjas a 6502, of course). I assume everyone here knows the story that the PDP11 sign extended instruction was called SXT becuase the suits objected to it being called SEX. And the possibly aporcryphal extension that the hackers got their own back in the naming of the Failed UniBus Address Register in the VAX11/780 -- only after manuals had been printed and shipped did the suits realise what FUBAR stood for :-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 2 13:44:39 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2010 19:44:39 +0100 (BST) Subject: Pronouncing acronyms (was Re: DEC acronyms) In-Reply-To: from "Rod Smallwood" at Sep 2, 10 07:45:34 am Message-ID: > > > The ones I do remember=20 > > 1. BA11-ES always referred to as a Balls box That would have been confusing to me. Balls Brothers were a company well-known for embedded video monitors in the 1970s/1980s, including at leat one version of the VT100 video board. So a 'Balls Box' to me would be a VT100 (or something) with a Balls Brothers video board. > > 2. RSTS as Ristus It was normally 'rustus' among the people I knoew who used it... Getting away from DEC for a moment... I have been known to pronouch 'CRT' as 'Crut'. But oddly, I almost never pronouce LED as 'led'. It's always 'Ell Eee Dee' (or 'Lima Echo Delta' if I am being more silly than normal :-)) -tony From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Aug 2 14:27:11 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2010 15:27:11 -0400 Subject: Pronouncing acronyms (was Re: DEC acronyms) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C571C0F.40903@neurotica.com> On 8/2/10 2:44 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > It was normally 'rustus' among the people I knoew who used it... > > Getting away from DEC for a moment... > > I have been known to pronouch 'CRT' as 'Crut'. > > But oddly, I almost never pronouce LED as 'led'. It's always 'Ell Eee > Dee' (or 'Lima Echo Delta' if I am being more silly than normal :-)) "Ristiss", "See Are Tee", and "Ell Eee Dee" for me. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Aug 2 14:28:27 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2010 12:28:27 -0700 Subject: Apple/Mac floppy questions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C571C5B.1080307@brouhaha.com> Tony wrote: >> One thing to watch for are the little 20-way Apple ribbon cables that >> link these drives to the mainboard. They are not what they seem -- in >> particlar 1 ro 2 wries are not wires at all, but solid plastic, so those >> pins of the connectors are not linked. If they are, then all sorts of odd >> things happen (Eject motor runs continuously???) >> >> I beelive there are at least 2 versions of the calbe (for double sided >> and high density drives>?, with different coloured pin 1 tracers. A Mac >> enthusiast may know more. >> Jeff wrote: > I don't remember all the details. I do remember that there is a cable > with a yellow stripe on pin 1 and another version of the cable with a red > stripe. If you install the wrong cable (can't remember whether it's red > for yellow or yellow for red) the eject motor does indeed run > continuously. > > It doesn't seem to damage the drive; I never let it run more than a few > seconds. So it's easy enough to identify and correct. > There's a dedicated eject signal on the 800K and FDHD that will cause the drive to eject. IIRC it is active low, and replaced a ground. The internal drive connectors in the Mac are not wired for that eject signal. The dedicated eject signal is probably used in the external drive enclosure for the eject button. Software can tell the drive to disable the manual eject and poll the button instead. Or something like that. Eric From arcarlini at iee.org Mon Aug 2 14:39:42 2010 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2010 20:39:42 +0100 Subject: Pronouncing acronyms (was Re: DEC acronyms) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <67AFF95DD501490DA767222AD0CC928D@ANTONIOPC> Tony Duell [ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk] wrote: > And the possibly aporcryphal extension that the hackers > got their > own back in the naming of the Failed UniBus Address Register in the > VAX11/780 -- only after manuals had been printed and shipped did the > suits realise what FUBAR stood for :-) I have no personal knowledge, but I find it incredibly difficult to believe that FUBAR was anything other than deliberate :-) Was it OS/8 (or a derivative) that started out as the First User Customizable Keyboard monitor? The reply to the obvious objection was Second User ... (I don't recall what it actually shipped as). I assume that P/OS was just an accident (and coined after the fact). Antonio From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 2 14:49:18 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2010 20:49:18 +0100 (BST) Subject: Apple/Mac floppy questions In-Reply-To: <4C571C5B.1080307@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at Aug 2, 10 12:28:27 pm Message-ID: > > Tony wrote: > >> One thing to watch for are the little 20-way Apple ribbon cables that > >> link these drives to the mainboard. They are not what they seem -- in > >> particlar 1 ro 2 wries are not wires at all, but solid plastic, so those > >> pins of the connectors are not linked. If they are, then all sorts of odd > >> things happen (Eject motor runs continuously???) > >> > >> I beelive there are at least 2 versions of the calbe (for double sided > >> and high density drives>?, with different coloured pin 1 tracers. A Mac > >> enthusiast may know more. > >> > Jeff wrote: > > I don't remember all the details. I do remember that there is a cable > > with a yellow stripe on pin 1 and another version of the cable with a red > > stripe. If you install the wrong cable (can't remember whether it's red > > for yellow or yellow for red) the eject motor does indeed run > > continuously. > > > > It doesn't seem to damage the drive; I never let it run more than a few > > seconds. So it's easy enough to identify and correct. > > > There's a dedicated eject signal on the 800K and FDHD that will cause > the drive to eject. IIRC it is active low, and replaced a ground. The I thought it was actually a -5V line on the computer end of the cable, but the schematics are not to hand... > internal drive connectors in the Mac are not wired for that eject signal. > > The dedicated eject signal is probably used in the external drive > enclosure for the eject button. Software can tell the drive to disable > the manual eject and poll the button instead. Or something like that. IRIC, this eject pin is wired directly to the eject motor driver circuit, it doesn't go via any logic (e.g. the digital ASIC) so I don't see how software could do this unless there was more external logic involved (which is entirely possible, of course). I thought the cables were different between the 800K and FDHD drives, but I might well be wrong. I don't have much experience with Macs... -tony From RichA at vulcan.com Mon Aug 2 14:46:28 2010 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2010 12:46:28 -0700 Subject: drifting from retrobrite - can I make it a museum discussion In-Reply-To: References: , <4C531EEC.5080908@jwsss.com> Message-ID: From: Randy Dawson Sent: Saturday, July 31, 2010 12:59 AM > I am interested in any ideas, and models for technology museums. > Currently, I am working with some guys on a project we call VintageTek, a > museum of Tektronix, the technology, innovations and personalities that, > without glorification on my part, created, or enabled modern electronics. > We are aware of Boston Computer Museum and others, and its easy to make > that a destination to see the evolution of computing in general across > several companies. Were not sure that a museum dedicated to one company, > Tek, and oscilloscopes (along with its original engineering workstations > and computer graphics systems) will be a success on its own. > Any curators out there care to throw in a few thoughts and stories, of how > you made a go of it? The American Association of Museums has a great deal of material available for free (as well as a huge lot more for paying members, but what you're looking for is in the free stuff). The specific page to start with is http://www.aam-us.org/aboutmuseums/ I encourage you to look over the documents there to get an idea of what you need to do to get started. I also encourage you to look into the possibility of a certificate program or the like in museum studies in your area. (The University of Washington has one, for example, which is roughly half the course work for the M. A. program.) It's not necessary for everyone involved in the project to go through such a program, but it's very helpful if at least one person does. Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.PDPplanet.org/ http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 2 14:55:35 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2010 20:55:35 +0100 (BST) Subject: Pronouncing acronyms (was Re: DEC acronyms) In-Reply-To: <4C571C0F.40903@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Aug 2, 10 03:27:11 pm Message-ID: > > I have been known to pronouch 'CRT' as 'Crut'. > > > > But oddly, I almost never pronouce LED as 'led'. It's always 'Ell Eee > > Dee' (or 'Lima Echo Delta' if I am being more silly than normal :-)) > > "Ristiss", "See Are Tee", and "Ell Eee Dee" for me. Oh, it's normally 'C - R - T' (3 separate letter names) round here too. But 'Crut' is one way to pronounce it. I don't normally do that, but... Analogure to Digital Converter(ADC) is always 'Aye Dee Cee', but digital to analogue converter (DAC) is pronounced as a word -- 'Dack'. Other ones (at least as I pronounce them)... DACK (Data Acknowledge/DMA Acknowledge) is normally pronounced as a word.. DTACK (Data Transfer Acknoledge -- 6800 bus signal) is 'Dee-Tack' The column address signal CAS/ on a DRAM is always 'CAS-bar' :-) Serial input and Serial out are pronounced as words -- Sin and Sout. Doubtles I will think of many more... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 2 14:58:38 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2010 20:58:38 +0100 (BST) Subject: Pronouncing acronyms (was Re: DEC acronyms) In-Reply-To: <67AFF95DD501490DA767222AD0CC928D@ANTONIOPC> from "arcarlini@iee.org" at Aug 2, 10 08:39:42 pm Message-ID: > > Tony Duell [ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk] wrote: > > And the possibly aporcryphal extension that the hackers > > got their > > own back in the naming of the Failed UniBus Address Register in the > > VAX11/780 -- only after manuals had been printed and shipped did the > > suits realise what FUBAR stood for :-) > > I have no personal knowledge, but I find it incredibly difficult to > believe that FUBAR was anything other than deliberate :-) I am absolutley sure it was deliberate, it is far too much of a conincidence. The apocryphal part is whether the suits realised what was going on before it was too late, and wheter it was a hacker's reaction to the SXT/SEX PDP11 instruction/ > > Was it OS/8 (or a derivative) that started out as the > First User Customizable Keyboard monitor? The reply to the > obvious objection was Second User ... (I don't recall what > it actually shipped as). Hmm... :-) > > I assume that P/OS was just an accident (and coined after the fact). Well, there was already POS (PERQ OS or Pascal OS) which not suprisingly ran on PERQs and was a farily nice single-user OS for said machine. I have never heard of anyone calling that piece-of-s***. But that is an apporpirate name for the ruined RSX that runs on the Pro... -tony From tshoppa at wmata.com Mon Aug 2 15:05:52 2010 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim) Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2010 16:05:52 -0400 Subject: Mispronouncing acronyms Message-ID: My favorite was an undergraduate computing help desk that Always managed to insist that the "vi" editor was pronounced "six". More than once I saw PDP-11 become PDP-II become PDP-2. And from the 70's onward I often felt a twinge of pity whenever I saw References to the ASC2 character set. Tim. From dmabry at mich.com Mon Aug 2 15:06:12 2010 From: dmabry at mich.com (Dave Mabry) Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2010 16:06:12 -0400 Subject: intel MSD-720 In-Reply-To: <4C56FCF7.4020907@att.net> References: <4C56FCF7.4020907@att.net> Message-ID: <4C572534.5070701@mich.com> Intel MDS-720 was, as I recall, the external package that contained 2 8" single-sided, double-density floppy drives. I think it also included the two-board set of controller boards that went into the Intel MDS (800 or Series II) along with ISIS-II operating system. How about a link to the CL posting? steve shumaker said the following on 8/2/2010 1:14 PM: > can anyone shed some light on what this might be: > > Floppy Disk Drives (internal) 8" dual drive console, Intel MSD-720 > > item is listed in a large Craigs List ad that's been up essentially > unchanged for months > attempts to get more info out of the seller have been less than > successful. > > the closest thing I can find is a reference to an "option 720" on > classiccomp's link to Joe's Intel MDS page. MDS 200 series > apparently had something called "option 720" but there's little info > about it other than it appears to be an external floppy unit. > > thoughts welcome.... > > > Steve > > From shumaker at att.net Mon Aug 2 15:29:19 2010 From: shumaker at att.net (steve shumaker) Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2010 16:29:19 -0400 Subject: intel MSD-720 In-Reply-To: <4C572534.5070701@mich.com> References: <4C56FCF7.4020907@att.net> <4C572534.5070701@mich.com> Message-ID: <4C572A9F.30108@att.net> Here's the link: http://washingtondc.craigslist.org/nva/sys/1867720633.html item is near the bottom of a long list. be warned: I've attempted to get additional info from the seller on several of the vintage items listed with little success. Steve On 8/2/2010 4:06 PM, Dave Mabry wrote: > Intel MDS-720 was, as I recall, the external package that contained 2 > 8" single-sided, double-density floppy drives. I think it also > included the two-board set of controller boards that went into the > Intel MDS (800 or Series II) along with ISIS-II operating system. > > How about a link to the CL posting? > > > steve shumaker said the following on 8/2/2010 1:14 PM: >> can anyone shed some light on what this might be: >> >> Floppy Disk Drives (internal) 8" dual drive console, Intel MSD-720 >> >> item is listed in a large Craigs List ad that's been up essentially >> unchanged for months >> attempts to get more info out of the seller have been less than >> successful. >> >> the closest thing I can find is a reference to an "option 720" on >> classiccomp's link to Joe's Intel MDS page. MDS 200 series >> apparently had something called "option 720" but there's little info >> about it other than it appears to be an external floppy unit. >> >> thoughts welcome.... >> >> >> Steve >> >> > > From shumaker at att.net Mon Aug 2 15:31:16 2010 From: shumaker at att.net (steve shumaker) Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2010 16:31:16 -0400 Subject: intel MSD-720 In-Reply-To: <4C572534.5070701@mich.com> References: <4C56FCF7.4020907@att.net> <4C572534.5070701@mich.com> Message-ID: <4C572B14.4060008@att.net> forgot to mention... in emails, he insists that it is an "MSD"-720 steve On 8/2/2010 4:06 PM, Dave Mabry wrote: > Intel MDS-720 was, as I recall, the external package that contained 2 > 8" single-sided, double-density floppy drives. I think it also > included the two-board set of controller boards that went into the > Intel MDS (800 or Series II) along with ISIS-II operating system. > > How about a link to the CL posting? > > > steve shumaker said the following on 8/2/2010 1:14 PM: >> can anyone shed some light on what this might be: >> >> Floppy Disk Drives (internal) 8" dual drive console, Intel MSD-720 >> >> item is listed in a large Craigs List ad that's been up essentially >> unchanged for months >> attempts to get more info out of the seller have been less than >> successful. >> >> the closest thing I can find is a reference to an "option 720" on >> classiccomp's link to Joe's Intel MDS page. MDS 200 series >> apparently had something called "option 720" but there's little info >> about it other than it appears to be an external floppy unit. >> >> thoughts welcome.... >> >> >> Steve >> >> > > From cclist at sydex.com Mon Aug 2 15:35:06 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2010 13:35:06 -0700 Subject: Mispronouncing acronyms In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C56C98A.29425.F54A6F@cclist.sydex.com> Does no one remember Veetock? (VTOC) --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Mon Aug 2 15:40:18 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2010 13:40:18 -0700 Subject: intel MSD-720 In-Reply-To: <4C572534.5070701@mich.com> References: <4C56FCF7.4020907@att.net>, <4C572534.5070701@mich.com> Message-ID: <4C56CAC2.3666.FA0B1B@cclist.sydex.com> There's one on Ebay, if you want to look at the purty pitchers... 190424652214 Unusual because the drives are horizontal side-by-side; I've only used the vertical side-by-side boxes. --Chuck From drb at msu.edu Mon Aug 2 15:46:19 2010 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2010 16:46:19 -0400 Subject: Mispronouncing acronyms In-Reply-To: (Your message of Mon, 02 Aug 2010 16:05:52 EDT.) References: Message-ID: <20100802204619.C48C6A5826C@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > And from the 70's onward I often felt a twinge of pity whenever I saw > References to the ASC2 character set. Or worse yet, going full circle, "asskey two". Then again, I tend to want to shoot people who pronounce URL "earl". Ran across somebody the other day who was surprised that DEC is often pronounced "deck". #include De From IanK at vulcan.com Mon Aug 2 15:49:32 2010 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2010 13:49:32 -0700 Subject: Mispronouncing acronyms In-Reply-To: <4C56C98A.29425.F54A6F@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4C56C98A.29425.F54A6F@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: Or "eye-sam" (ISAM) -- Ian > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chuck Guzis > Sent: Monday, August 02, 2010 1:35 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Mispronouncing acronyms > > Does no one remember Veetock? (VTOC) > > --Chuck > > > From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Aug 2 15:54:32 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2010 13:54:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Pronouncing acronyms (was Re: DEC acronyms) In-Reply-To: <20100802163856.195860ysz2p76k4c@aurigae.demon.co.uk> References: <20100802163856.195860ysz2p76k4c@aurigae.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <20100802135312.I35000@shell.lmi.net> Or SQL. "Sequel" is pretentious and unnecessarily adds an extra syllable. It is more obviously "Squeal" or "Sqawl" From IanK at vulcan.com Mon Aug 2 16:01:02 2010 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2010 14:01:02 -0700 Subject: Pronouncing acronyms (was Re: DEC acronyms) In-Reply-To: <20100802135312.I35000@shell.lmi.net> References: <20100802163856.195860ysz2p76k4c@aurigae.demon.co.uk> <20100802135312.I35000@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: I once met a very bright young woman who told me she was a "squeal" programmer. A dirty mind is a joy forever. -- Ian PS: I hear both "sequel" and "ess-cue-ell" about evenly. > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Fred Cisin > Sent: Monday, August 02, 2010 1:55 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: RE: Pronouncing acronyms (was Re: DEC acronyms) > > Or SQL. > "Sequel" is pretentious and unnecessarily adds an extra syllable. > It is more obviously "Squeal" or "Sqawl" > > From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Aug 2 16:27:21 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2010 14:27:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Pronouncing acronyms (was Re: DEC acronyms) In-Reply-To: References: <20100802163856.195860ysz2p76k4c@aurigae.demon.co.uk> <20100802135312.I35000@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20100802142540.G35000@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 2 Aug 2010, Ian King wrote: > I once met a very bright young woman who told me she was a "squeal" > programmer. Sounds well worth getting to know. Does she have a sister? > A dirty mind is a joy forever. -- Ian > PS: I hear both "sequel" and "ess-cue-ell" about evenly. . . . but rarely hear it pronounced "System Query Language", or whatever From cclist at sydex.com Mon Aug 2 16:33:20 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2010 14:33:20 -0700 Subject: Mispronouncing acronyms In-Reply-To: <20100802204619.C48C6A5826C@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> References: , <20100802204619.C48C6A5826C@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: <4C56D730.24720.12A9919@cclist.sydex.com> On 2 Aug 2010 at 16:46, Dennis Boone wrote: > Ran across somebody the other day who was surprised that DEC is often > pronounced "deck". Was once informed by a friend who worked as a field engineer for the Maynard Mafia that "Deck" was officially frowned upon; one should apparently always say "Digital" when in the presence of customers. I've been surprised at abbreviations that resisted the temptation to acronym-ize. "RBR" and "RBT" were always pronouced as the letters; I would have imagined that "rubber" and "robot" would have been used, but it never came to pass, to the best of my knowledge. --Chuck From richardlynch4 at tx.rr.com Sun Aug 1 11:41:49 2010 From: richardlynch4 at tx.rr.com (Richard Lynch) Date: Sun, 01 Aug 2010 11:41:49 -0500 Subject: Free empty TI 960B Message-ID: If anyone is interested in an empty TI 960B chassis for the cost of shipping, please contact me offlist. Includes only the frame, motherboard and power supply - no front panel or boards. Even so, it's still big and heavy so local pickup (near Dallas Texas) will save some money. Richard Lynch From bqt at softjar.se Sun Aug 1 12:31:46 2010 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Sun, 01 Aug 2010 19:31:46 +0200 Subject: IRQs and such (was Re: Serial interfaces) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C55AF82.5090103@softjar.se> Glen Slick wrote: > If you have a KA655 VAX CPU, or the SIMH version, you can run the > configure utility to calculate what the CSR address and vector > assignments should be for the set of devices you have. Good tip. Another is that SYSGEN under VMS can also do this. Check the HELP if you are curious. Yet another is FLOAT.CMD, which comes with the DECnet distribution of RSX. And I also have a program written in C from I don't remember where, which allows you to figure out the same information. > For example: > > VAX simulator V3.8-1 > sim> load -r ka655x.bin > sim> boot cpu > KA655-B V5.3, VMB 2.7 > Performing normal system tests. > 40..39..38..37..36..35..34..33..32..31..30..29..28..27..26..25.. > 24..23..22..21..20..19..18..17..16..15..14..13..12..11..10..09.. > 08..07..06..05..04..03.. > Tests completed. >>>> >>>configure > Enter device configuration, HELP, or EXIT > Device,Number? help > Devices: > LPV11 KXJ11 DLV11J DZQ11 DZV11 DFA01 > RLV12 TSV05 RXV21 DRV11W DRV11B DPV11 > DMV11 DELQA DEQNA DESQA RQDX3 KDA50 > RRD50 RQC25 KFQSA-DISK TQK50 TQK70 TU81E > RV20 KFQSA-TAPE KMV11 IEQ11 DHQ11 DHV11 > CXA16 CXB16 CXY08 VCB01 QVSS LNV11 > LNV21 QPSS DSV11 ADV11C AAV11C AXV11C > KWV11C ADV11D AAV11D VCB02 QDSS DRV11J > DRQ3B VSV21 IBQ01 IDV11A IDV11B IDV11C > IDV11D IAV11A IAV11B MIRA ADQ32 DTC04 > DESNA IGQ11 > Numbers: > 1 to 255, default is 1 > Device,Number? rqdx3,2 > Device,Number? delqa,1 > Device,Number? tqk50,1 > Device,Number? dhq11,1 > Device,Number? exit > > Address/Vector Assignments > -774440/120 DELQA > -772150/154 RQDX3 > -760334/300 RQDX3 > -774500/260 TQK50 > -760500/310 DHQ11 >>>> >>> And for the curious of mind, the same from FLOAT.CMD: . at du:[200,200]float Determine the floating CSR addresses for your UNIBUS or Q-BUS machine. Type in the number (0 to 16) of devices for each device on the system ( = 0). After you have typed in the number for the device you are interested in, type to avoid having to go through the rest of the list. Q-BUS machine? y Number of DUV11s on system: Number of DZV11s on system: Number of VMV21s on system: Number of VMV31s on system: Number of RLV11s on system: Number of RXV11s on system: Number of DPV11s on system: Number of DMV11s on system: Number of RQDX1s on system: 2 Number of KMV11s on system: Number of DHV11s on system: 1 RQDX1 172150 (Fixed CSR) RQDX1 160334 DHV11 160500 (It's obviously missing the DELQA and TQK50) And from SYSGEN.C: .run sysgen Type device names one per line, optionally followed by a comma and a repeat count. Finish with EOF. rqdx3,2 delqa tqk50 dhq11 sysgen: DHQ11: unrecognized device name; ignored dhv11 Table of standard DEC assignments for configuration: DEVICE CSR VECTOR ------------------------- RQDX3 772150 0154 RQDX3 760334* 0300* DELQA 774440 0120 TQK50 774500 0260 DHV11 760500* 0310* CSRs and vectors marked '*' are in floating space. Johnny From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sun Aug 1 18:54:27 2010 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2010 16:54:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: scammed an HP 98788A b & w monitor Message-ID: <677217.49547.qm@web65503.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> not totally sure of it's overall health, but it kind of works thus far. apparently was used on an HP-UX w/s @ AT & T (so says the sticker). an unusual bugger. Unique amongst my jumbo monitors. Now only need the HP-UX station to go along w/it... From richardlynch4 at tx.rr.com Mon Aug 2 07:41:31 2010 From: richardlynch4 at tx.rr.com (Richard Lynch) Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2010 07:41:31 -0500 Subject: Free empty TI 960B In-Reply-To: Message-ID: If anyone is interested in an empty TI 960B chassis for the cost of shipping, please contact me offlist. Includes only the frame, motherboard and power supply - no front panel or boards. Even so, it's still big and heavy so local pickup (near Dallas Texas) will save some money. Richard Lynch From hachti at hachti.de Mon Aug 2 16:52:26 2010 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2010 23:52:26 +0200 Subject: DG 800/1200 questions In-Reply-To: <4C55AEEB.6080404@bitsavers.org> References: <42E490EB6EDD4A69A1AC3A8C992D566E@OSA.local> <4C55AEEB.6080404@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4C573E1A.30509@hachti.de> Hi, On 01.08.2010 19:29, Al Kossow wrote: > On 8/1/10 9:24 AM, Jay West wrote: > >> Are we pretty sure that most software for these machines has been >> archived somewhere, or should I send these tapes off to Al et. al. to >> have them read >> > I've been referring all DG software offers to Bruce Ray at Wild Hare. I for example have a DG Nova 2 and nearly *NO* information about it. All I know is that the PSU and lights are OK. And that I can play around a bit. I have no reliable documentation. And no clue how to hook up a TTY or load software and all the like... That might sound a bit stupid... but... I got frustrated by the lack of *everything* for my Nova. All I have for the machine is plenty of core memory... Why is DG stuff not put onto Bitsavers? Regards, Philipp -- http://www.hachti.de From cclist at sydex.com Mon Aug 2 16:57:49 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2010 14:57:49 -0700 Subject: OT: The last roll of Kodachrome Message-ID: <4C56DCED.22569.1410601@cclist.sydex.com> Not even remotely computer-related, but I know that there are more than a couple of photography aficionados on the list: http://www.manufacturing.net/News/2010/08/Offbeat-News-What-s-On-The- Last-Roll-Of-Kodachrome/ Cheers, Chuck From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Aug 2 17:02:11 2010 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2010 15:02:11 -0700 Subject: FYI - Maryland Computer Museum article In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C574063.3070401@bitsavers.org> http://weblogs.baltimoresun.com/news/technology/2010/08/marylands_computer_history_mus.html From curt at atarimuseum.com Mon Aug 2 17:10:33 2010 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2010 18:10:33 -0400 Subject: S100 omninet driver In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C574259.4010809@atarimuseum.com> Haven't seen any S-100 Omni-net controllers, but I have a pair of regular S-100 Corvus HD controllers. Steven Hirsch wrote: > On Wed, 21 Jul 2010, David Griffith wrote: > >> >> I seem to recall some talk about omninet. I found a disk labeled >> "S100 Omninet drivers for CP/M 2.2". > > That would be nice to have, if you wouldn't mind mailing me an image. > > Several times I've come close to nailing an S100 Omninet controller, > but the owners invariably disappear and/or stop responding to e-mail. > > > > > From glen.slick at gmail.com Mon Aug 2 17:20:45 2010 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2010 15:20:45 -0700 Subject: IRQs and such (was Re: Serial interfaces) In-Reply-To: <4C55AF82.5090103@softjar.se> References: <4C55AF82.5090103@softjar.se> Message-ID: On Sun, Aug 1, 2010 at 10:31 AM, Johnny Billquist wrote: > > Yet another is FLOAT.CMD, which comes with the DECnet distribution of RSX. > You can also ".R FLOAT" in XXDP 2.5. That gets tedious as you have to run through the whole list of devices when you probably only have non-zero numbers of a few of them. -Glen From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Aug 2 17:21:43 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2010 15:21:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Pronouncing acronyms (was Re: DEC acronyms) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20100802152019.M35000@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 2 Aug 2010, Tony Duell wrote: > Serial input and Serial out are pronounced as words -- Sin and Sout. > Doubtles I will think of many more... At one point, I seriously considered changing the spelling of my name to "SysIn", just so that people that I worked with would pronounce it correctly. From evan at snarc.net Mon Aug 2 17:24:44 2010 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2010 18:24:44 -0400 Subject: FYI - Maryland Computer Museum article In-Reply-To: <4C574063.3070401@bitsavers.org> References: <4C574063.3070401@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4C5745AC.9080806@snarc.net> > http://weblogs.baltimoresun.com/news/technology/2010/08/marylands_computer_history_mus.html Here we go again .... Bob's collection is impressive. But that's all it is: a collection, owned by one person, located inside a private office. From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Aug 2 17:25:24 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2010 18:25:24 -0400 Subject: OT: The last roll of Kodachrome In-Reply-To: <4C56DCED.22569.1410601@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4C56DCED.22569.1410601@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > Not even remotely computer-related, but I know that there are more > than a couple of photography aficionados on the list: Jay is just back from a lengthy retreat, and one of the first things he gets to see is a blatant kick-off to a photography thread. Smooth...real smooth... -- Will From silent700 at gmail.com Mon Aug 2 17:28:14 2010 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2010 17:28:14 -0500 Subject: Mispronouncing acronyms In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Aug 2, 2010 at 3:05 PM, Shoppa, Tim wrote: > My favorite was an undergraduate computing help desk that > Always managed to insist that the "vi" editor was pronounced "six". > > More than once I saw PDP-11 become PDP-II become PDP-2. Reminds me of the local newscast I saw that referred to N. Korean leader "Kim Jong the Second." -- j From silent700 at gmail.com Mon Aug 2 17:29:18 2010 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2010 17:29:18 -0500 Subject: Mispronouncing acronyms In-Reply-To: <20100802204619.C48C6A5826C@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> References: <20100802204619.C48C6A5826C@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, Aug 2, 2010 at 3:46 PM, Dennis Boone wrote: > Ran across somebody the other day who was surprised that DEC is often > pronounced "deck". DEC is always "deck." NEC is *never* "neck." It's just the Way it Is. From curt at atarimuseum.com Mon Aug 2 17:32:19 2010 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2010 18:32:19 -0400 Subject: FYI - Maryland Computer Museum article In-Reply-To: <4C5745AC.9080806@snarc.net> References: <4C574063.3070401@bitsavers.org> <4C5745AC.9080806@snarc.net> Message-ID: <4C574773.2070101@atarimuseum.com> Not all of us have a former Naval Communications Research Base to setup our stuff in ;-) Evan Koblentz wrote: > >> http://weblogs.baltimoresun.com/news/technology/2010/08/marylands_computer_history_mus.html >> > > Here we go again .... > > Bob's collection is impressive. But that's all it is: a collection, > owned by one person, located inside a private office. > From silent700 at gmail.com Mon Aug 2 17:32:45 2010 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2010 17:32:45 -0500 Subject: Mispronouncing acronyms In-Reply-To: <4C56C98A.29425.F54A6F@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4C56C98A.29425.F54A6F@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: Surely covered on this list before, but I will re-open the box: SQL. I say "ess kyu ell." I rarely hear "sickle," although that makes some sense. I *always* hear "sequel," which requires some more imagination. It's only a hunch, but I suspect this originated from the dark halls of Redmond. -- jht From halarewich at gmail.com Mon Aug 2 17:36:43 2010 From: halarewich at gmail.com (Chris Halarewich) Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2010 15:36:43 -0700 Subject: tek and other scopes avail Message-ID: hello all for all the oscilloscope lovers out there this stuff is avail from bc govt surplus website it is not mine http://www.bcauction.ca/open.dll/welcome click brouse auctions then scientific / testing equip individ auctions are as follows tek d541 https://www.bcauction.ca/open.dll/showDisplayDocument?sessionID=21512378&disID=6098321&docType=Tender&dis_version_nos=0&doc_search_by=Tend&docTypeQual=TN one lot of 3 bk presision 2120a https://www.bcauction.ca/open.dll/showDisplayDocument?sessionID=21512378&disID=6097898&docType=Tender&dis_version_nos=0&doc_search_by=Tend&docTypeQual=TN 1 spectrum anyliser hp model 8558b https://www.bcauction.ca/open.dll/showDisplayDocument?sessionID=21512378&disID=6098346&docType=Tender&dis_version_nos=0&doc_search_by=Tend&docTypeQual=TN lot of 2 kikusui model 5020 https://www.bcauction.ca/open.dll/showDisplayDocument?sessionID=21512378&disID=6098318&docType=Tender&dis_version_nos=0&doc_search_by=Tend&docTypeQual=TN one lot of 6 hitachi model v-212 https://www.bcauction.ca/open.dll/showDisplayDocument?sessionID=21512378&disID=6097894&docType=Tender&dis_version_nos=0&doc_search_by=Tend&docTypeQual=TN this is a bc govt surplus website these are not mine if u bid on the items they can ither be shipped or picked up- location surrey bc canada Chris From evan at snarc.net Mon Aug 2 17:45:26 2010 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2010 18:45:26 -0400 Subject: FYI - Maryland Computer Museum article In-Reply-To: <4C574773.2070101@atarimuseum.com> References: <4C574063.3070401@bitsavers.org> <4C5745AC.9080806@snarc.net> <4C574773.2070101@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <4C574A86.1020608@snarc.net> I know, I just hate when people mis-label stuff. Bob's private collection is not a "museum". I would feel this way regardless of my own efforts. --------------------------------------------- > Not all of us have a former Naval Communications Research Base to > setup our stuff in ;-) > > > > > Evan Koblentz wrote: >> >>> http://weblogs.baltimoresun.com/news/technology/2010/08/marylands_computer_history_mus.html >>> >> >> Here we go again .... >> >> Bob's collection is impressive. But that's all it is: a collection, >> owned by one person, located inside a private office. >> > From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Mon Aug 2 14:07:37 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2010 20:07:37 +0100 Subject: OT? Tek 4014 emulator (tying Xterm to ttyS0) Message-ID: <4C571779.2030508@philpem.me.uk> Hi guys, I'm building some hardware that spits out debug info on a regular basis, and I figured it'd be useful to have this data graphed on-screen. Making it keep track of the last "N" samples and draw them wouldn't be hard, except adding an LCD display is out of the question (takes up too many I/O pins). On the other hand, I have a perfectly good serial port which runs at a decent rate of speed (115200 baud), and Xterm can emulate a Tektronix 4014 vector terminal. Perfect... except I can't see an easy way to tie Xterm to a serial port instead of having it run an application. There's nothing in the manpage (admittedly I haven't read it all, just grepped it for a few obvious terms) and 'apropos' isn't finding anything useful. I've been told that tip(1) on BSD will do what I want, I just can't find anything similar on Linux... Thanks, -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From RichA at vulcan.com Mon Aug 2 18:03:59 2010 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2010 16:03:59 -0700 Subject: Mispronouncing acronyms In-Reply-To: References: <4C56C98A.29425.F54A6F@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: From: Jason T Sent: Monday, August 02, 2010 3:33 PM > Surely covered on this list before, but I will re-open the box: > SQL. > I say "ess kyu ell." I rarely hear "sickle," although that makes > some sense. I *always* hear "sequel," which requires some more > imagination. It's only a hunch, but I suspect this originated from > the dark halls of Redmond. I heard this from BIM mainframe programming types in the 1980s, so I'd say otherwise. Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.PDPplanet.org/ http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From legalize at xmission.com Mon Aug 2 18:07:32 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2010 17:07:32 -0600 Subject: OT? Tek 4014 emulator (tying Xterm to ttyS0) In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 02 Aug 2010 20:07:37 +0100. <4C571779.2030508@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: In article <4C571779.2030508 at philpem.me.uk>, Philip Pemberton writes: > On the other hand, I have a perfectly good serial port which runs at a > decent rate of speed (115200 baud), and Xterm can emulate a Tektronix > 4014 vector terminal. Perfect... except I can't see an easy way to tie > Xterm to a serial port instead of having it run an application. Have xterm run a shell and then just cat the contents of the serial port. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Mon Aug 2 18:10:39 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2010 17:10:39 -0600 Subject: retr0brite not so right? In-Reply-To: Your message of Sat, 31 Jul 2010 18:56:23 -0700. <4C54D447.8090003@jwsss.com> Message-ID: In article <4C54D447.8090003 at jwsss.com>, jim s writes: > One of a kind items without hope of finding parts run now > will have zero hope of > ever being carefully restored and run at any point in the future if you > run it now and burn it up. Just so its clear: I would never allow "one of a kind" items to be operated. For things like that, you create a replica/simulacrum experience. (Think: SAGE console.) The stuff I would let people touch are things like Tektronix 4105 terminals (of which I have 10 or so in working order) or limited interaction with tektronix storage tube terminals (of which I have several of each model) or Octane workstations (of which I have 19). "Hands on" can still be done with replicas for rare items. However, I find museums that are just piles of stuff behind glass to be really boring. Its like going to a zoo where all the animals are stuffed. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Mon Aug 2 18:13:15 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2010 17:13:15 -0600 Subject: Tek Fiche update In-Reply-To: Your message of Sat, 31 Jul 2010 16:32:13 +0100. <4C5441FD.4020206@axeside.co.uk> Message-ID: I would be interested in 411x service manuals. Program listings and newsletters are hard to come by as well, although I have a fairly complete set of 405x newsletters. ROM source code listings are most definately welcome if present; I don't think I've ever seen Tek ROM source code listings unless they were reverse engineered from burned ROM images. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From ploopster at gmail.com Mon Aug 2 18:20:15 2010 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2010 19:20:15 -0400 Subject: preserving computers (was: retr0brite not so right?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C5752AF.1050201@gmail.com> joe lobocki wrote: > so wait, how much vacuum would destroy something? I have a few things > sealed in Foodsaver bags, is this enough vaccum to do damage? I doubt it. Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Mon Aug 2 18:23:26 2010 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2010 19:23:26 -0400 Subject: Pronouncing acronyms (was Re: DEC acronyms) In-Reply-To: <20100802135312.I35000@shell.lmi.net> References: <20100802163856.195860ysz2p76k4c@aurigae.demon.co.uk> <20100802135312.I35000@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4C57536E.9050206@gmail.com> Fred Cisin wrote: > Or SQL. > "Sequel" is pretentious and unnecessarily adds an extra syllable. > It is more obviously "Squeal" or "Sqawl" Except the language was called SEQUEL before it was called SQL. Peace... Sridhar From rivie at ridgenet.net Mon Aug 2 18:26:44 2010 From: rivie at ridgenet.net (Roger Ivie) Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2010 16:26:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT? Tek 4014 emulator (tying Xterm to ttyS0) In-Reply-To: <4C571779.2030508@philpem.me.uk> References: <4C571779.2030508@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: On Mon, 2 Aug 2010, Philip Pemberton wrote: > On the other hand, I have a perfectly good serial port which runs at a decent > rate of speed (115200 baud), and Xterm can emulate a Tektronix 4014 vector > terminal. Perfect... except I can't see an easy way to tie Xterm to a serial > port instead of having it run an application. Kermit? http://kermit.columbia.edu/ -- roger ivie rivie at ridgenet.net From ploopster at gmail.com Mon Aug 2 18:26:44 2010 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2010 19:26:44 -0400 Subject: Mispronouncing acronyms In-Reply-To: References: <4C56C98A.29425.F54A6F@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4C575434.4020802@gmail.com> Jason T wrote: > Surely covered on this list before, but I will re-open the box: > > SQL. > > I say "ess kyu ell." I rarely hear "sickle," although that makes > some sense. I *always* hear "sequel," which requires some more > imagination. It's only a hunch, but I suspect this originated from > the dark halls of Redmond. Wrong. SQL was developed at IBM sometime in the early '70s for interacting with the System/R database, and was originally called SEQUEL. It was changed because of trademark reasons. Peace... Sridhar From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Mon Aug 2 18:27:27 2010 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2010 16:27:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Tek Fiche update In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <518253.99364.qm@web80502.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I have the service manuals for the 4114. I can get them to Al at bitsavers (assuming he has time!) if you want. Bob --- On Mon, 8/2/10, Richard wrote: > From: Richard > Subject: Re: Tek Fiche update > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Date: Monday, August 2, 2010, 4:13 PM > > I would be interested in 411x service manuals. > > Program listings and newsletters are hard to come by as > well, although > I have a fairly complete set of 405x newsletters. > > ROM source code listings are most definately welcome if > present; I > don't think I've ever seen Tek ROM source code listings > unless they > were reverse engineered from burned ROM images. > -- > "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft > available for download > > > ? ? ? Legalize Adulthood! > From als at thangorodrim.de Mon Aug 2 18:18:50 2010 From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber) Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2010 01:18:50 +0200 Subject: OT? Tek 4014 emulator (tying Xterm to ttyS0) In-Reply-To: <4C571779.2030508@philpem.me.uk> References: <4C571779.2030508@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <20100802231850.GA13409@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> On Mon, Aug 02, 2010 at 08:07:37PM +0100, Philip Pemberton wrote: > Hi guys, > > I'm building some hardware that spits out debug info on a regular > basis, and I figured it'd be useful to have this data graphed > on-screen. Making it keep track of the last "N" samples and draw > them wouldn't be hard, except adding an LCD display is out of the > question (takes up too many I/O pins). > > On the other hand, I have a perfectly good serial port which runs at > a decent rate of speed (115200 baud), and Xterm can emulate a > Tektronix 4014 vector terminal. Perfect... except I can't see an > easy way to tie Xterm to a serial port instead of having it run an > application. > > There's nothing in the manpage (admittedly I haven't read it all, > just grepped it for a few obvious terms) and 'apropos' isn't finding > anything useful. I've been told that tip(1) on BSD will do what I > want, I just can't find anything similar on Linux... Hmm, wouldn't running kermit (connected to the serial port) inside the xterm do the trick? Kind regards, Alex. -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison From trag at io.com Mon Aug 2 18:39:01 2010 From: trag at io.com (Jeff Walther) Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2010 18:39:01 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Apple/Mac floppy questions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2010 12:28:27 -0700 > From: Eric Smith > Tony wrote: >>> One thing to watch for are the little 20-way Apple ribbon cables that >>> link these drives to the mainboard. They are not what they seem -- in >>> particlar 1 ro 2 wries are not wires at all, but solid plastic, so >>> those >>> pins of the connectors are not linked. If they are, then all sorts of >>> odd >>> things happen (Eject motor runs continuously???) >>> >>> I beelive there are at least 2 versions of the calbe (for double sided >>> and high density drives>?, with different coloured pin 1 tracers. A Mac >>> enthusiast may know more. >>> > Jeff wrote: >> I don't remember all the details. I do remember that there is a cable >> with a yellow stripe on pin 1 and another version of the cable with a >> red stripe. If you install the wrong cable (can't remember whether >> it's red for yellow or yellow for red) the eject motor does indeed run >> continuously. >> >> It doesn't seem to damage the drive; I never let it run more than a few >> seconds. So it's easy enough to identify and correct. >> > There's a dedicated eject signal on the 800K and FDHD that will cause > the drive to eject. IIRC it is active low, and replaced a ground. The > internal drive connectors in the Mac are not wired for that eject signal. > > The dedicated eject signal is probably used in the external drive > enclosure for the eject button. Software can tell the drive to disable > the manual eject and poll the button instead. Or something like that. Hmmm. I may be remembering what happens when one tries to install an auto-inject floppy drive into a later model Mac which expects a manual inject drive. In which case it has nothing to do with the cable, although I have seen both red and yellow striped. Anyway, I know I was building a system out of bits and pieces and saw that behaviour from the floppy, but maybe it was auto-inject in later model Mac rather than wrong cable. I hadn't started keeping a lab notebook yet, at the time. I know I've built floppy cables for PCI PowerMacs and manual inject floppies using standard ribbon cable and crimp on IDCs (connectors, is that redundant with IDC?). Jeff Walther From silent700 at gmail.com Mon Aug 2 18:39:00 2010 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2010 18:39:00 -0500 Subject: Mispronouncing acronyms In-Reply-To: <4C575434.4020802@gmail.com> References: <4C56C98A.29425.F54A6F@cclist.sydex.com> <4C575434.4020802@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Aug 2, 2010 at 6:26 PM, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Wrong. ?SQL was developed at IBM sometime in the early '70s for interacting > with the System/R database, and was originally called SEQUEL. ?It was > changed because of trademark reasons. Ahhh...I knew I had heard that somewhere before. Probably on this list, and probably from you ;) j (It's still S.Q.L to me. There's no "u" after that "q.") From shoppa at trailing-edge.com Mon Aug 2 18:57:32 2010 From: shoppa at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2010 19:57:32 -0400 Subject: Mispronouncing acronyms Message-ID: <20100802235732.6FC981E025E@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> >> And from the 70's onward I often felt a twinge of pity whenever I saw >> References to the ASC2 character set. > Or worse yet, going full circle, "asskey two". Typical usage of that from the 70's onward: "You're still using asskey? We're using asskey-2. You should upgrade." Tim "Excessive force in the apprehension of abused acronyms has been approved" Shoppa. From gyorpb at gmail.com Mon Aug 2 19:03:08 2010 From: gyorpb at gmail.com (Joost van de Griek) Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2010 02:03:08 +0200 Subject: DG 800/1200 questions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 2 August 2010 20:32, Tony Duell wrote: > AFAIK apart from that notch, they are mechanically the same -- same > positieond of spools, capstan holes, head access hole, etc. Same design > of spool/hub. Same position of the write-protect hole. I don't think > there were any mirros for optical sensorts in the data cassetes either, > but they may well have detected the clear leader by reflecitons off the > cassette shell, so only light-coloured cassettes would work. Well, I've definitely seen black streamer cassettes (being offered). What I meant was, they might have been engineered to a higher standard than your average audio cassette. .tsooJ From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Mon Aug 2 19:16:53 2010 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2010 20:16:53 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Mystery print drum In-Reply-To: <4C568C6A.3061.6858E@cclist.sydex.com> References: , , <4C55E9CF.5920.3283BF5@cclist.sydex.com> <4C568C6A.3061.6858E@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 2 Aug 2010, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> On Sun, 1 Aug 2010, Mike Loewen wrote: >> >>> I have an unidentified drum from a line printer, 160 columns and >>> 64 >>> characters. The characters are the same on each horizontal line, >>> and the drum is one solid piece. Can anyone hazard a guess as to >>> which printer this might fit? There are no part numbers on it. > > An afterthought--it would be useful to list the non-alphanumeric > characters. They were far from standard in the old days and > sometimes you could tell a maker by the character set. The 64 character rows are laid out, thusly: 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 . 8 , 9 - E T A I S O N H R D L U C M F W Y P G 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 . 8 , 9 - V B K J $ * Q X Z # / + : = ' ( ) > < The numbers 0-9 are doubled, along with period (.), comma (,) and dash (-). Character spacing is 1/10 inch. I did some checking on HP drum printers (originally from Data Products and Data Printer Corp), and none of them went to 160 columns. Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From ploopster at gmail.com Mon Aug 2 19:31:41 2010 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2010 20:31:41 -0400 Subject: Mystery print drum In-Reply-To: References: , , <4C55E9CF.5920.3283BF5@cclist.sydex.com> <4C568C6A.3061.6858E@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4C57636D.1040709@gmail.com> Mike Loewen wrote: > The 64 character rows are laid out, thusly: > > 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 . 8 , 9 - E T A I S O N H R D L U C M F W Y P G > 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 . 8 , 9 - V B K J $ * Q X Z # / + : = ' ( ) > < > > The numbers 0-9 are doubled, along with period (.), comma (,) and dash > (-). Character spacing is 1/10 inch. I did some checking on HP drum > printers (originally from Data Products and Data Printer Corp), and none > of them went to 160 columns. I'm not familiar with the layout, but 160 columns makes me think Tally. Peace... Sridhar From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Aug 2 19:35:18 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2010 17:35:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Mystery print drum In-Reply-To: References: , , <4C55E9CF.5920.3283BF5@cclist.sydex.com> <4C568C6A.3061.6858E@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20100802173202.I35000@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 2 Aug 2010, Mike Loewen wrote: > The 64 character rows are laid out, thusly: > > 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 . 8 , 9 - E T A I S O N H R D L U C M F W Y P G > 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 . 8 , 9 - V B K J $ * Q X Z # / + : = ' ( ) > < No help at all for your question, but it interests me that 'S' has been put between 'I' and 'O', instead of the usual between 'N' and 'H'. The further down the list you go, the more variations there are from one frequency list to another, but that is an unusually high placement of 'S'. From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Mon Aug 2 19:40:09 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2010 01:40:09 +0100 Subject: OT? Tek 4014 emulator (tying Xterm to ttyS0) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C576569.3060101@philpem.me.uk> On 03/08/10 00:07, Richard wrote: > Have xterm run a shell and then just cat the contents of the serial > port. Tried that one! It doesn't let me send text back to the serial port (obviously, because 'cat' is one-way). -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From afra at aurigae.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 2 19:40:10 2010 From: afra at aurigae.demon.co.uk (Phill Harvey-Smith) Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2010 01:40:10 +0100 Subject: Mispronouncing acronyms In-Reply-To: <20100802235732.6FC981E025E@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> References: <20100802235732.6FC981E025E@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <4C57656A.8020506@aurigae.demon.co.uk> Tim Shoppa wrote: >>> And from the 70's onward I often felt a twinge of pity whenever I saw >>> References to the ASC2 character set. > >> Or worse yet, going full circle, "asskey two". > > Typical usage of that from the 70's onward: "You're still using asskey? > We're using asskey-2. You should upgrade." The other one I used to here about ASCII, was when a program crashed with a corrupted text screen it would be described as "my screen was full of ASCII characters" Well duuuhhh what do you think the normal ones are(1). Actually more often than not it was full of extended ASCII.... 1) Yeah I know there are other character sets like EBCDIC etc bu this was a mainly PC shop. Cheers. Phill. -- Phill Harvey-Smith, Programmer, Hardware hacker, and general eccentric ! "You can twist perceptions, but reality won't budge" -- Rush. From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Aug 2 19:44:09 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2010 17:44:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Mystery print drum In-Reply-To: <4C57636D.1040709@gmail.com> References: , , <4C55E9CF.5920.3283BF5@cclist.sydex.com> <4C568C6A.3061.6858E@cclist.sydex.com> <4C57636D.1040709@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20100802173934.V35000@shell.lmi.net> > > The 64 character rows are laid out, thusly: > > 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 . 8 , 9 - E T A I S O N H R D L U C M F W Y P G > > 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 . 8 , 9 - V B K J $ * Q X Z # / + : = ' ( ) > < On Mon, 2 Aug 2010, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > I'm not familiar with the layout, but 160 columns makes me think Tally. When using frequency of usage for probabilities in code breaking, the most common sequence (from most common letter to least) is often E T A I O N S H R D L U From silent700 at gmail.com Mon Aug 2 19:48:16 2010 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2010 19:48:16 -0500 Subject: Mispronouncing acronyms In-Reply-To: <4C57656A.8020506@aurigae.demon.co.uk> References: <20100802235732.6FC981E025E@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> <4C57656A.8020506@aurigae.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: On Mon, Aug 2, 2010 at 7:40 PM, Phill Harvey-Smith wrote: > corrupted text screen it would be described as "my screen was full of ASCII > characters" Well duuuhhh what do you think the normal ones are(1). Actually When my friends want to shop for "organic" vegetables, I ask them where the silicon-based ones are... -- jht From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Mon Aug 2 19:54:51 2010 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2010 17:54:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Mispronouncing acronyms In-Reply-To: References: <20100802235732.6FC981E025E@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> <4C57656A.8020506@aurigae.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: On Mon, 2 Aug 2010, Jason T wrote: > On Mon, Aug 2, 2010 at 7:40 PM, Phill Harvey-Smith > wrote: >> corrupted text screen it would be described as "my screen was full of ASCII >> characters" Well duuuhhh what do you think the normal ones are(1). Actually > > When my friends want to shop for "organic" vegetables, I ask them where > the silicon-based ones are... I know someone who had a habit of saying "cadmium" (as in nickel-cadmium batteries) as "kitty yum". So, whenever he asked to borrow rechargable batteries from me ("Hey, can I borrow some kitty-yums?"), I'd invariably give him a packet of cat treats. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Mon Aug 2 19:55:54 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2010 21:55:54 -0300 Subject: Mispronouncing acronyms References: <20100802204619.C48C6A5826C@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: <01f701cb32a7$555f5770$0600000a@portajara> > DEC is always "deck." NEC is *never* "neck." It's just the Way it Is. In Brazil, everyone says "neck" From fjgjr1 at aol.com Mon Aug 2 20:13:34 2010 From: fjgjr1 at aol.com (fjgjr1 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2010 21:13:34 -0400 Subject: OT: The last roll of Kodachrome In-Reply-To: <4C56DCED.22569.1410601@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4C56DCED.22569.1410601@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <8CD00C03A4B98A3-AD8-3F93@webmail-d075.sysops.aol.com> FYI Says link cannot be found ! Frank -----Original Message----- From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Sent: Mon, Aug 2, 2010 5:57 pm Subject: OT: The last roll of Kodachrome Not even remotely computer-related, but I know that there are more han a couple of photography aficionados on the list: http://www.manufacturing.net/News/2010/08/Offbeat-News-What-s-On-The- ast-Roll-Of-Kodachrome/ Cheers, huck From geneb at deltasoft.com Mon Aug 2 20:15:34 2010 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2010 18:15:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Mispronouncing acronyms In-Reply-To: References: <20100802204619.C48C6A5826C@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, 2 Aug 2010, Jason T wrote: > On Mon, Aug 2, 2010 at 3:46 PM, Dennis Boone wrote: >> Ran across somebody the other day who was surprised that DEC is often >> pronounced "deck". > > DEC is always "deck." NEC is *never* "neck." It's just the Way it Is. > Like Sysop is _NEVER_ Seye-sop. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Mon Aug 2 20:18:48 2010 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2010 21:18:48 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Mispronouncing acronyms In-Reply-To: References: <20100802204619.C48C6A5826C@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, 2 Aug 2010, Gene Buckle wrote: > Like Sysop is _NEVER_ Seye-sop. :) Jason Ward (RIP) always pronounced it that way, and I could never break him of the habit. Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Mon Aug 2 20:26:24 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2010 22:26:24 -0300 Subject: Mispronouncing acronyms References: <20100802235732.6FC981E025E@mini-me.trailing-edge.com><4C57656A.8020506@aurigae.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <027e01cb32ab$fb0423a0$0600000a@portajara> > When my friends want to shop for "organic" vegetables, I ask them > where the silicon-based ones are... Same in Brazil :) From curt at atarimuseum.com Mon Aug 2 20:42:23 2010 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2010 21:42:23 -0400 Subject: Mispronouncing acronyms In-Reply-To: <01f701cb32a7$555f5770$0600000a@portajara> References: <20100802204619.C48C6A5826C@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <01f701cb32a7$555f5770$0600000a@portajara> Message-ID: <4C5773FF.6090201@atarimuseum.com> Oh jeeez.... next thing, we're gonna starting have the Sysop argument: Its is pronounced 'sis' 'op' for System Operator or is it SY-SOP for SYstem Operator ;-) Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >> DEC is always "deck." NEC is *never* "neck." It's just the Way it Is. > > In Brazil, everyone says "neck" From silent700 at gmail.com Mon Aug 2 20:42:50 2010 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2010 20:42:50 -0500 Subject: Mispronouncing acronyms In-Reply-To: References: <20100802204619.C48C6A5826C@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, Aug 2, 2010 at 8:15 PM, Gene Buckle wrote: > Like Sysop is _NEVER_ Seye-sop. :) Does "Seye" rhyme with (American) "hay" or "eye" there? I admit I did come up saying Sysop (assonant with "eye-mop.") I know it's "Siss-op," I know. Sadly I haven't had cause to say it in years. -- jht From silent700 at gmail.com Mon Aug 2 20:45:59 2010 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2010 20:45:59 -0500 Subject: Mispronouncing acronyms In-Reply-To: <4C5773FF.6090201@atarimuseum.com> References: <20100802204619.C48C6A5826C@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <01f701cb32a7$555f5770$0600000a@portajara> <4C5773FF.6090201@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Aug 2, 2010 at 8:42 PM, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > Oh jeeez.... > > next thing, we're gonna starting have the Sysop argument: > Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: Nah, let's have the top-posting argument instead this time. ;) /me runs for the hills and takes cover... -- jht ^ could also argue the correct method(s) of indicating action and what time period and/or software they are derived from! From curt at atarimuseum.com Mon Aug 2 20:51:01 2010 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2010 21:51:01 -0400 Subject: Mispronouncing acronyms In-Reply-To: References: <20100802204619.C48C6A5826C@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: <4C577605.2070700@atarimuseum.com> Yeah - we keep this up and in a few msgs the whole thread to degenerate down to a good old fashion 80's to 90's Atari XL vs. Commodore 64 flame war, or worse - an Atari ST vs Amiga flame war ;-) Jason T wrote: > On Mon, Aug 2, 2010 at 8:15 PM, Gene Buckle wrote: > >> Like Sysop is _NEVER_ Seye-sop. :) >> > > Does "Seye" rhyme with (American) "hay" or "eye" there? > > I admit I did come up saying Sysop (assonant with "eye-mop.") I know > it's "Siss-op," I know. Sadly I haven't had cause to say it in years. > > From rick at rickmurphy.net Mon Aug 2 20:59:57 2010 From: rick at rickmurphy.net (Rick Murphy) Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2010 21:59:57 -0400 Subject: Pronouncing acronyms (was Re: DEC acronyms) In-Reply-To: <67AFF95DD501490DA767222AD0CC928D@ANTONIOPC> References: <67AFF95DD501490DA767222AD0CC928D@ANTONIOPC> Message-ID: <201008030159.o731xudl011647@rickmurphy.net> At 03:39 PM 8/2/2010, arcarlini at iee.org wrote: >Was it OS/8 (or a derivative) that started out as the >First User Customizable Keyboard monitor? The reply to the >obvious objection was Second User ... (I don't recall what >it actually shipped as). Well, close. First Upward-Compatible Keyboard monitor. That's apparently why the sources for OS/8 were distributed with comments stripped. -Rick From geoffr at zipcon.net Mon Aug 2 21:16:11 2010 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoffrey Reed) Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2010 19:16:11 -0700 Subject: DG 800/1200 questions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 8/2/10 5:03 PM, "Joost van de Griek" wrote: > On 2 August 2010 20:32, Tony Duell wrote: > >> AFAIK apart from that notch, they are mechanically the same -- same >> positieond of spools, capstan holes, head access hole, etc. Same design >> of spool/hub. Same position of the write-protect hole. I don't think >> there were any mirros for optical sensorts in the data cassetes either, >> but they may well have detected the clear leader by reflecitons off the >> cassette shell, so only light-coloured cassettes would work. > > Well, I've definitely seen black streamer cassettes (being offered). > What I meant was, they might have been engineered to a higher standard > than your average audio cassette. > > .tsooJ > /me hangs head in shame... About 20 years ago I had a bunch of audio recorded on old data cassettes and gave them all away about 10 years ago. From geoffr at zipcon.net Mon Aug 2 21:17:31 2010 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoffrey Reed) Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2010 19:17:31 -0700 Subject: Mispronouncing acronyms In-Reply-To: <4C5773FF.6090201@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: On 8/2/10 6:42 PM, "Curt @ Atari Museum" wrote: > Oh jeeez.... > > next thing, we're gonna starting have the Sysop argument: > > Its is pronounced 'sis' 'op' for System Operator > > or is it SY-SOP for SYstem Operator > > > ;-) Nope, it's "Boff-H" :) -BOFH- From ragooman at comcast.net Mon Aug 2 21:56:38 2010 From: ragooman at comcast.net (Dan Roganti) Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2010 22:56:38 -0400 Subject: FYI - Maryland Computer Museum article In-Reply-To: <4C574A86.1020608@snarc.net> References: <4C574063.3070401@bitsavers.org> <4C5745AC.9080806@snarc.net> <4C574773.2070101@atarimuseum.com> <4C574A86.1020608@snarc.net> Message-ID: <4C578566.2060805@comcast.net> I haven't seen the indoor photos before till now, I think that place is very impressive - I would add it to my list of travels. This is certainly not just a room full of stuff lying around in somebody's garage or living room. Even thought it's a private collection - alot of museums are privately owned - there's no rule that a museum is supposed to be publicly owned. From looking at the photos there, he made a great effort to have machines on display for the public, some mention of historical timeline is shown, including educational material [e.g. using video feeds]. Plus the mention of further exhibits being planned for display. All of which is the intention of a museum. =Dan http://www.vintagecomputer.net/ragooman Evan Koblentz wrote: > I know, I just hate when people mis-label stuff. Bob's private > collection is not a "museum". I would feel this way regardless of my > own efforts. > > --------------------------------------------- >> Not all of us have a former Naval Communications Research Base to >> setup our stuff in ;-) >> >> >> >> >> Evan Koblentz wrote: >>> >>>> http://weblogs.baltimoresun.com/news/technology/2010/08/marylands_computer_history_mus.html >>>> >>> >>> Here we go again .... >>> >>> Bob's collection is impressive. But that's all it is: a collection, >>> owned by one person, located inside a private office. >>> >> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 9.0.851 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3045 - Release Date: 08/02/10 02:35:00 > > From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Aug 2 22:06:43 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2010 20:06:43 -0700 Subject: Mispronouncing acronyms In-Reply-To: <4C56C98A.29425.F54A6F@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4C56C98A.29425.F54A6F@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4C5787C3.7000405@brouhaha.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > Does no one remember Veetock? (VTOC) Sure. On both IBM machines and the Apple II. Did anyone else use it? From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Aug 2 22:11:48 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2010 23:11:48 -0400 Subject: Mispronouncing acronyms In-Reply-To: <4C5787C3.7000405@brouhaha.com> References: <4C56C98A.29425.F54A6F@cclist.sydex.com> <4C5787C3.7000405@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4C5788F4.4070204@neurotica.com> On 8/2/10 11:06 PM, Eric Smith wrote: >> Does no one remember Veetock? (VTOC) > > Sure. On both IBM machines and the Apple II. Did anyone else use it? Sun.. (prtvtoc, etc) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ragooman at comcast.net Mon Aug 2 22:15:38 2010 From: ragooman at comcast.net (Dan Roganti) Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2010 23:15:38 -0400 Subject: Mispronouncing acronyms In-Reply-To: References: <20100802204619.C48C6A5826C@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: <4C5789DA.4020009@comcast.net> http://www.vintagecomputer.net/ragooman/ Jason T wrote: > On Mon, Aug 2, 2010 at 3:46 PM, Dennis Boone wrote: > >> Ran across somebody the other day who was surprised that DEC is often >> pronounced "deck". >> > > DEC is always "deck." NEC is *never* "neck." It's just the Way it Is. Sometimes people would have their own "vulgar" definitions for these acronyms, those I've heard mostly from FE's since they dealt directly with customers - just to irritate people for spite :) You have to realize that there was always some level of atagonizing by the other companies since these companies were the big boys of the day. Some of the simple ones were, [I forgot most of them] IBM = Itsy Bitsy Machines PDP = Pretty Damn Poor [machines] DEC = Dumb Engineering Corporation CDC = Creators [of] Dumb Computers MODCOMP = Mostly Old Disgusting COMPuters HARRIS = Heap Ass Refurbished Rubbish Inside Systems let's play nice.... =Dan From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Aug 2 22:17:07 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2010 23:17:07 -0400 Subject: FYI - Maryland Computer Museum article In-Reply-To: <4C578566.2060805@comcast.net> References: <4C574063.3070401@bitsavers.org> <4C5745AC.9080806@snarc.net> <4C574773.2070101@atarimuseum.com> <4C574A86.1020608@snarc.net> <4C578566.2060805@comcast.net> Message-ID: > - there's no rule that a museum is supposed to be publicly owned. I do not know about other states, but in New York - yes, real incorporated museums are public, officially part of University of the State of New York, and must follow the Rules of the Regents. -- Will From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Aug 2 22:18:01 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2010 23:18:01 -0400 Subject: Mispronouncing acronyms In-Reply-To: <4C5789DA.4020009@comcast.net> References: <20100802204619.C48C6A5826C@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <4C5789DA.4020009@comcast.net> Message-ID: <4C578A69.3050803@neurotica.com> On 8/2/10 11:15 PM, Dan Roganti wrote: > IBM = Itsy Bitsy Machines Insidious Blue Machines -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From geoffr at zipcon.net Mon Aug 2 22:18:50 2010 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoffrey Reed) Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2010 20:18:50 -0700 Subject: Mispronouncing acronyms In-Reply-To: <4C5787C3.7000405@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On 8/2/10 8:06 PM, "Eric Smith" wrote: > Chuck Guzis wrote: > >> Does no one remember Veetock? (VTOC) > > Sure. On both IBM machines and the Apple II. Did anyone else use it? > > If VTOC refers to Volume Table Of Contents, there were a couple TRS-80 disk operating systems that used it -I think- memory is a little hazy here. From geoffr at zipcon.net Mon Aug 2 22:19:53 2010 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoffrey Reed) Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2010 20:19:53 -0700 Subject: Mispronouncing acronyms In-Reply-To: <4C5789DA.4020009@comcast.net> Message-ID: On 8/2/10 8:15 PM, "Dan Roganti" wrote: > > http://www.vintagecomputer.net/ragooman/ > > Sometimes people would have their own "vulgar" definitions for these > acronyms, those I've heard mostly from FE's since they dealt directly > with customers - just to irritate people for spite :) You have to > realize that there was always some level of atagonizing by the other > companies since these companies were the big boys of the day. > Some of the simple ones were, [I forgot most of them] > IBM = Itsy Bitsy Machines -snip- IBM = I've Been Mislead From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Aug 2 22:24:09 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2010 20:24:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: FYI - Maryland Computer Museum article In-Reply-To: References: <4C574063.3070401@bitsavers.org> <4C5745AC.9080806@snarc.net> <4C574773.2070101@atarimuseum.com> <4C574A86.1020608@snarc.net> <4C578566.2060805@comcast.net> Message-ID: <20100802202332.M35000@shell.lmi.net> > > - there's no rule that a museum is supposed to be publicly owned. On Mon, 2 Aug 2010, William Donzelli wrote: > I do not know about other states, but in New York - yes, real > incorporated museums are public, officially part of University of the > State of New York, and must follow the Rules of the Regents. It's illegal there to start up an independent museum?? From ploopster at gmail.com Mon Aug 2 22:29:13 2010 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2010 23:29:13 -0400 Subject: FYI - Maryland Computer Museum article In-Reply-To: <20100802202332.M35000@shell.lmi.net> References: <4C574063.3070401@bitsavers.org> <4C5745AC.9080806@snarc.net> <4C574773.2070101@atarimuseum.com> <4C574A86.1020608@snarc.net> <4C578566.2060805@comcast.net> <20100802202332.M35000@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4C578D09.7040105@gmail.com> Fred Cisin wrote: >>> - there's no rule that a museum is supposed to be publicly owned. > >> I do not know about other states, but in New York - yes, real >> incorporated museums are public, officially part of University of the >> State of New York, and must follow the Rules of the Regents. > > It's illegal there to start up an independent museum?? Without USNY accreditation, it's next to impossible for a museum in New York State to obtain tax exempt status as a museum. It's similar to the accreditation requirement for public lending libraries. Peace... Sridhar From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Aug 2 22:30:20 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2010 20:30:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Mispronouncing acronyms In-Reply-To: <4C5788F4.4070204@neurotica.com> from Dave McGuire at "Aug 2, 10 11:11:48 pm" Message-ID: <201008030330.o733UK9U021846@floodgap.com> > > > Does no one remember Veetock? (VTOC) > > > > Sure. On both IBM machines and the Apple II. Did anyone else use it? > > Sun.. (prtvtoc, etc) Well, if Apple has the Veetock, Commodore had the BAM! -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Happiness is having a scratch for every itch. -- Ogden Nash ---------------- From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Aug 2 22:34:34 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2010 23:34:34 -0400 Subject: FYI - Maryland Computer Museum article In-Reply-To: <20100802202332.M35000@shell.lmi.net> References: <4C574063.3070401@bitsavers.org> <4C5745AC.9080806@snarc.net> <4C574773.2070101@atarimuseum.com> <4C574A86.1020608@snarc.net> <4C578566.2060805@comcast.net> <20100802202332.M35000@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: > It's illegal there to start up an independent museum?? If you incorporate as a non-profit, basically you have to go thru all the paperwork with the Regents. If you do not follow the rules, they can dissolve the corporation. I suppose there is nothing wrong with calling a personal collection a "museum" in New York, but certainly it would be illegal to be a "museum" (non-profit or other corporation) and not do the whole Regents thing. I think the state has busted people for this. -- Will From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Aug 2 22:36:06 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2010 20:36:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Mispronouncing acronyms In-Reply-To: <201008030330.o733UK9U021846@floodgap.com> References: <201008030330.o733UK9U021846@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <20100802203452.K35000@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 2 Aug 2010, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > Well, if Apple has the Veetock, Commodore had the BAM! . . . and MICROS~1 is F.A.T. (based on their earlier GAT) From cclist at sydex.com Mon Aug 2 22:36:55 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2010 20:36:55 -0700 Subject: Mispronouncing acronyms In-Reply-To: <4C5787C3.7000405@brouhaha.com> References: , <4C56C98A.29425.F54A6F@cclist.sydex.com>, <4C5787C3.7000405@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4C572C67.3731.2777726@cclist.sydex.com> On 2 Aug 2010 at 20:06, Eric Smith wrote: > Chuck Guzis wrote: > > > Does no one remember Veetock? (VTOC) > > Sure. On both IBM machines and the Apple II. Did anyone else use it? CDC terminology generally was "label". On Zodiac, we had a "Label label table" for multivolume databases. A bitmap was used to track allocation, called a Block Reservation Table and called "Bert". IBM had DASD (anyone pronouce it?); CDC had RMS. Crossing between the two cultures could be very confusing. Did anyone have a pronounceable version of "VSN"? (Volume Serial Number) --Chuck From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Aug 2 22:37:28 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2010 23:37:28 -0400 Subject: FYI - Maryland Computer Museum article In-Reply-To: <4C578D09.7040105@gmail.com> References: <4C574063.3070401@bitsavers.org> <4C5745AC.9080806@snarc.net> <4C574773.2070101@atarimuseum.com> <4C574A86.1020608@snarc.net> <4C578566.2060805@comcast.net> <20100802202332.M35000@shell.lmi.net> <4C578D09.7040105@gmail.com> Message-ID: > Without USNY accreditation, it's next to impossible for a museum in New York > State to obtain tax exempt status as a museum. ?It's similar to the > accreditation requirement for public lending libraries. It is mostly paperwork and legal crap, but actually pretty easy to follow the rules. Basically, the Regents make museums actually follow all the things they teach in Museums 101. -- Will From evan at snarc.net Mon Aug 2 22:43:34 2010 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2010 23:43:34 -0400 Subject: FYI - Maryland Computer Museum article In-Reply-To: <4C578D09.7040105@gmail.com> References: <4C574063.3070401@bitsavers.org> <4C5745AC.9080806@snarc.net> <4C574773.2070101@atarimuseum.com> <4C574A86.1020608@snarc.net> <4C578566.2060805@comcast.net> <20100802202332.M35000@shell.lmi.net> <4C578D09.7040105@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4C579066.5080301@snarc.net> > >>>> - there's no rule that a museum is supposed to be publicly owned. >> >>> I do not know about other states, but in New York - yes, real >>> incorporated museums are public, officially part of University of the >>> State of New York, and must follow the Rules of the Regents. >> >> It's illegal there to start up an independent museum?? > > Without USNY accreditation, it's next to impossible for a museum in > New York State to obtain tax exempt status as a museum. It's similar > to the accreditation requirement for public lending libraries. Exactly. To whoever asked the question: museums aren't profitable. Without being a non-profit, success is almost impossible. (Our museum here in NJ is an exception because we're a club that happens to get cost-free exhibit space. Even so, we're still en route to 501c3 status.) From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Aug 2 22:41:43 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2010 23:41:43 -0400 Subject: Mispronouncing acronyms In-Reply-To: <4C572C67.3731.2777726@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4C56C98A.29425.F54A6F@cclist.sydex.com>, <4C5787C3.7000405@brouhaha.com> <4C572C67.3731.2777726@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4C578FF7.3030307@neurotica.com> On 8/2/10 11:36 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > IBM had DASD (anyone pronouce it?); CDC had RMS. Crossing between > the two cultures could be very confusing. I say "dazzdee". I've never heard anyone say "Dee Ay Ess Dee". -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From drb at msu.edu Mon Aug 2 22:47:55 2010 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2010 23:47:55 -0400 Subject: Mispronouncing acronyms In-Reply-To: (Your message of Mon, 02 Aug 2010 23:15:38 EDT.) <4C5789DA.4020009@comcast.net> References: <4C5789DA.4020009@comcast.net> <20100802204619.C48C6A5826C@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: <20100803034755.4F563A5826C@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > Sometimes people would have their own "vulgar" definitions for these > acronyms, FM - F'ing magic MFM - Modified F'ing magic The Prime engineers were fond of these. One of 'em always made sure to plug his soldering iron into the PDU in the bottom of the cabinet, because "you don't want any heat spikes, you know?" De From cclist at sydex.com Mon Aug 2 22:50:28 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2010 20:50:28 -0700 Subject: FYI - Maryland Computer Museum article In-Reply-To: References: , <4C578D09.7040105@gmail.com>, Message-ID: <4C572F94.15290.283E046@cclist.sydex.com> On 2 Aug 2010 at 23:37, William Donzelli wrote: > Without USNY accreditation, it's next to impossible for a museum in > New York State to obtain tax exempt status as a museum. ?It's > similar to the accreditation requirement for public lending > libraries. As regards Federal tax status, is there any practical difference between being a tax-exempt museum and a plain old 510(c)3 corp.? "To be tax-exempt under section 501(c)(3) of the Internal Revenue Code, an organization must be organized and operated exclusively for exempt purposes set forth in section 501(c)(3), and none of its earnings may inure to any private shareholder or individual. In addition, it may not be an action organization, i.e., it may not attempt to influence legislation as a substantial part of its activities and it may not participate in any campaign activity for or against political candidates." --Chuck From drb at msu.edu Mon Aug 2 22:50:37 2010 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2010 23:50:37 -0400 Subject: Mispronouncing acronyms In-Reply-To: (Your message of Mon, 02 Aug 2010 20:36:55 PDT.) <4C572C67.3731.2777726@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4C572C67.3731.2777726@cclist.sydex.com> , <4C56C98A.29425.F54A6F@cclist.sydex.com>, <4C5787C3.7000405@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <20100803035037.C495AA5826C@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > CDC terminology generally was "label". On Zodiac, we had a "Label label > table" for multivolume databases. A bitmap was used to track > allocation, called a Block Reservation Table and called "Bert". Prime called it a Record Allocation Table, generally RAT or DSKRAT. Fitting somehow. > IBM had DASD (anyone pronouce it?); CDC had RMS. Crossing between the > two cultures could be very confusing. Always DAZZ DEE. > Did anyone have a pronounceable version of "VSN"? (Volume Serial > Number) VOLL SEER. :) How about VRN (visual reel number)? Don't think I ever heard it pronounced as other than letters. De From ploopster at gmail.com Mon Aug 2 22:56:43 2010 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2010 23:56:43 -0400 Subject: Mispronouncing acronyms In-Reply-To: <4C572C67.3731.2777726@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4C56C98A.29425.F54A6F@cclist.sydex.com>, <4C5787C3.7000405@brouhaha.com> <4C572C67.3731.2777726@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4C57937B.8090802@gmail.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > IBM had DASD (anyone pronouce it?); CDC had RMS. Crossing between > the two cultures could be very confusing. DAZZ-DEE. Everyone I know who deals with IBM mainframes (and that's a *lot* of people) pronounces it that way. Peace... Sridhar From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Aug 2 22:56:59 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2010 23:56:59 -0400 Subject: FYI - Maryland Computer Museum article In-Reply-To: <4C572F94.15290.283E046@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4C578D09.7040105@gmail.com> <4C572F94.15290.283E046@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > As regards Federal tax status, is there any practical difference > between being a tax-exempt museum and a plain old 510(c)3 corp.? Not really. Save-the-Whales, Inc. and The-Museum-of-Save-the-Whales., Inc. follow the same tax rules, providing they are both 501c3s. -- Will From ploopster at gmail.com Mon Aug 2 22:58:54 2010 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2010 23:58:54 -0400 Subject: FYI - Maryland Computer Museum article In-Reply-To: <4C572F94.15290.283E046@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4C578D09.7040105@gmail.com>, <4C572F94.15290.283E046@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4C5793FE.3060606@gmail.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 2 Aug 2010 at 23:37, William Donzelli wrote: > >> Without USNY accreditation, it's next to impossible for a museum in >> New York State to obtain tax exempt status as a museum. It's >> similar to the accreditation requirement for public lending >> libraries. William didn't write that. I did. Peace... Sridhar From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Aug 2 23:00:44 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2010 00:00:44 -0400 Subject: FYI - Maryland Computer Museum article In-Reply-To: <4C5793FE.3060606@gmail.com> References: <4C578D09.7040105@gmail.com> <4C572F94.15290.283E046@cclist.sydex.com> <4C5793FE.3060606@gmail.com> Message-ID: > William didn't write that. ?I did. But I will take credit, because it sounds good. -- Will From cclist at sydex.com Mon Aug 2 23:11:17 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2010 21:11:17 -0700 Subject: FYI - Maryland Computer Museum article In-Reply-To: References: , <4C572F94.15290.283E046@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4C573475.31989.296EDD6@cclist.sydex.com> On 2 Aug 2010 at 23:56, William Donzelli wrote: > Not really. Save-the-Whales, Inc. and The-Museum-of-Save-the-Whales., > Inc. follow the same tax rules, providing they are both 501c3s. But if one wanted to establish "The Museum of Erotic Potato Chips" or "The Museum of Interesting Gum Found Under Movie Theater Seats" (focus!) in New York State, one would need to be certified by the Regents? Wow. --Chuck From ploopster at gmail.com Mon Aug 2 23:14:05 2010 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2010 00:14:05 -0400 Subject: FYI - Maryland Computer Museum article In-Reply-To: <4C573475.31989.296EDD6@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4C572F94.15290.283E046@cclist.sydex.com>, <4C573475.31989.296EDD6@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4C57978D.5090900@gmail.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 2 Aug 2010 at 23:56, William Donzelli wrote: > >> Not really. Save-the-Whales, Inc. and The-Museum-of-Save-the-Whales., >> Inc. follow the same tax rules, providing they are both 501c3s. > > But if one wanted to establish "The Museum of Erotic Potato Chips" or > "The Museum of Interesting Gum Found Under Movie Theater Seats" > (focus!) in New York State, one would need to be certified by the > Regents? > > Wow. Yes, and as long as the museum would be willing to do the paperwork and follow the rules, either of your examples would be able to pass accreditation. Peace... Sridhar From ragooman at comcast.net Mon Aug 2 23:23:12 2010 From: ragooman at comcast.net (Dan Roganti) Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2010 00:23:12 -0400 Subject: FYI - Maryland Computer Museum article In-Reply-To: References: <4C574063.3070401@bitsavers.org> <4C5745AC.9080806@snarc.net> <4C574773.2070101@atarimuseum.com> <4C574A86.1020608@snarc.net> <4C578566.2060805@comcast.net> Message-ID: <4C5799B0.2020704@comcast.net> William Donzelli wrote: >> - there's no rule that a museum is supposed to be publicly owned. >> > > I do not know about other states, but in New York - yes, real > incorporated museums are public, officially part of University of the > State of New York, and must follow the Rules of the Regents. > I think the keyword is incorporate. There are private museums in New York. Whether they're incorporated is another question - they certainly not bothered about getting tax-exempt status for donations when they're able to afford the collection in the first place. The owners might be financially solvent to not worry - and then some. But they are museums nonetheless - not just some ragtime outfit. =Dan http://www.vintagecomputer.net/ragooman/ From rodsmallwood at btconnect.com Mon Aug 2 23:34:19 2010 From: rodsmallwood at btconnect.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2010 05:34:19 +0100 Subject: Pronouncing acronyms (was Re: DEC acronyms) In-Reply-To: References: from "RodSmallwood" at Sep 2, 10 07:45:34 am Message-ID: 1. I once nearly took a job with them 2. I thought they were called Ball as opposed to Balls. 3. I have several of the Ball VT100 boards referred to but lack a circuit diagram to fix them. It would be a Ball diagram as opposed to a DEC one. 4. No, the circuit is not in any of the DEC VT100 manuals. Regards ? Rod Smallwood -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tony Duell Sent: 02 August 2010 19:45 To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Pronouncing acronyms (was Re: DEC acronyms) > > > The ones I do remember=20 > > 1. BA11-ES always referred to as a Balls box That would have been confusing to me. Balls Brothers were a company well-known for embedded video monitors in the 1970s/1980s, including at leat one version of the VT100 video board. So a 'Balls Box' to me would be a VT100 (or something) with a Balls Brothers video board. > > 2. RSTS as Ristus It was normally 'rustus' among the people I knoew who used it... Getting away from DEC for a moment... I have been known to pronouch 'CRT' as 'Crut'. But oddly, I almost never pronouce LED as 'led'. It's always 'Ell Eee Dee' (or 'Lima Echo Delta' if I am being more silly than normal :-)) -tony From cclist at sydex.com Tue Aug 3 00:01:15 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2010 22:01:15 -0700 Subject: Mispronouncing acronyms In-Reply-To: <4C5787C3.7000405@brouhaha.com> References: , <4C56C98A.29425.F54A6F@cclist.sydex.com>, <4C5787C3.7000405@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4C57402B.28155.2C4B012@cclist.sydex.com> Okay, so who pronouces assembly mnemonics? (As far as I can recall, I've only been guilty of pronoucing BXLE as "bixle".) Or are assembly programmers the strong silent type? --Chuck From mtapley at swri.edu Tue Aug 3 00:05:53 2010 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2010 00:05:53 -0500 Subject: Mispronouncing acronyms In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 22:17 -0500 8/2/10, Tim wrote: >Tim "Excessive force in the apprehension of abused acronyms has been >approved" Shoppa. Ah! a quote from one of my favorites - "The Big Blues Brothers" :-) -- - Mark 210-379-4635 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Large Asteroids headed toward planets inhabited by beings that don't have technology adequate to stop them: Think of it as Evolution in Fast-Forward. From legalize at xmission.com Tue Aug 3 05:00:08 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2010 04:00:08 -0600 Subject: OT? Tek 4014 emulator (tying Xterm to ttyS0) In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 03 Aug 2010 01:40:09 +0100. <4C576569.3060101@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: In article <4C576569.3060101 at philpem.me.uk>, Philip Pemberton writes: > It doesn't let me send text back to the serial port (obviously, because > 'cat' is one-way). Then use kermit as others have suggested, or use a perl script, etc. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Tue Aug 3 05:01:22 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2010 04:01:22 -0600 Subject: Tek Fiche update In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 02 Aug 2010 16:27:27 -0700. <518253.99364.qm@web80502.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: In article <518253.99364.qm at web80502.mail.mud.yahoo.com>, Bob Rosenbloom writes: > I have the service manuals for the 4114. I can get them to Al at bitsavers (a ssuming he has time!) if you want. If you get them to me, I can scan them to Al's specifications for bitsavers. (We've done this before.) -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From shoppa at trailing-edge.com Tue Aug 3 05:57:47 2010 From: shoppa at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2010 06:57:47 -0400 Subject: Mispronouncing acronyms Message-ID: <20100803105747.1C10E1E0226@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Mark wrote: > At 22:17 -0500 8/2/10, Tim wrote: >> Tim "Excessive force in the apprehension of abused acronyms has been >> approved" Shoppa. > Ah! a quote from one of my favorites - "The Big Blues Brothers" Of course the Blues Brothers had their own computer acronym: SCMODS = State County and Municipal Offender Data System pronounced Skamods with a distinct tone of disdain by Elwood IIRC. The cop car terminals looked pretty slick for 1980. Almost like mobile PLATO terminals with their orange plasma display. Maybe it was an actual Motorola product? Of course Motorola and PLATO were also suburban Chicago/Illinois tie-ins :-). And the mall that gets destroyed, I have been told, was (previous to being a mall) one of the Teletype factories in Skokie. Tim. From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Tue Aug 3 07:18:47 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2010 09:18:47 -0300 Subject: Mispronouncing acronyms References: <20100802204619.C48C6A5826C@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <4C577605.2070700@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <046a01cb3308$9a274190$0600000a@portajara> > Yeah - we keep this up and in a few msgs the whole thread to degenerate > down to a good old fashion 80's to 90's Atari XL vs. Commodore 64 flame > war, or worse - an Atari ST vs Amiga flame war ;-) But of course, the Atari is way better!!! :oD (ok, I was kidding, but I never had a ST...I think this is the only mainstream computer I never had :( ) From geneb at deltasoft.com Tue Aug 3 07:58:37 2010 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2010 05:58:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Mispronouncing acronyms In-Reply-To: References: <20100802204619.C48C6A5826C@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, 2 Aug 2010, Mike Loewen wrote: > On Mon, 2 Aug 2010, Gene Buckle wrote: > >> Like Sysop is _NEVER_ Seye-sop. :) > > Jason Ward (RIP) always pronounced it that way, and I could never break > him of the habit. > You should have tried jumping up and down and yelling a lot. It was crucial in my breaking a friend of using "worser". :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From geneb at deltasoft.com Tue Aug 3 08:00:33 2010 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2010 06:00:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Mispronouncing acronyms In-Reply-To: <4C577605.2070700@atarimuseum.com> References: <20100802204619.C48C6A5826C@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <4C577605.2070700@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 2 Aug 2010, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > Yeah - we keep this up and in a few msgs the whole thread to degenerate down > to a good old fashion 80's to 90's Atari XL vs. Commodore 64 flame war, or > worse - an Atari ST vs Amiga flame war ;-) > That's not even a contest. Commodore rules, Atari drools. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From pat at computer-refuge.org Tue Aug 3 08:28:53 2010 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2010 09:28:53 -0400 Subject: DG 800/1200 questions In-Reply-To: <4C573E1A.30509@hachti.de> References: <42E490EB6EDD4A69A1AC3A8C992D566E@OSA.local> <4C55AEEB.6080404@bitsavers.org> <4C573E1A.30509@hachti.de> Message-ID: <201008030928.53886.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Monday, August 02, 2010, Philipp Hachtmann wrote: > I for example have a DG Nova 2 and nearly *NO* information about it. > All I know is that the PSU and lights are OK. And that I can play > around a bit. I have no reliable documentation. And no clue how to > hook up a TTY or load software and all the like... > > That might sound a bit stupid... but... I got frustrated by the lack > of *everything* for my Nova. All I have for the machine is plenty of > core memory... > > Why is DG stuff not put onto Bitsavers? Because EMC (the current owners of the IPO) would send lawyers at Al so quickly, your head would spin. There however has been some talk of someone negotiating with EMC to get some sort of hobbyist license/distribution for some of the software. Check the list archives - it has been talked about before a few times. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From christian_liendo at yahoo.com Tue Aug 3 08:31:00 2010 From: christian_liendo at yahoo.com (Christian Liendo) Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2010 06:31:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: In Russia.. Ah forget it.. Impressive CPU collection In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <884333.48286.qm@web113505.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> I was trying to think of a "In Russia" joke, but this guys collection is rather impressive. This guy has a rather impressive CPU collection. http://englishrussia.com/index.php/2010/07/28/humble-cpus-collection-of-a-russian-geek/ From christian_liendo at yahoo.com Tue Aug 3 08:34:53 2010 From: christian_liendo at yahoo.com (Christian Liendo) Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2010 06:34:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Aug 3 1977 The TRS-80 was launched. In-Reply-To: <884333.48286.qm@web113505.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <201720.46472.qm@web113506.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> http://www.wired.com/thisdayintech/2010/08/0803trs-80-computer-launch From pat at computer-refuge.org Tue Aug 3 08:41:41 2010 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2010 09:41:41 -0400 Subject: DG 800/1200 questions In-Reply-To: <201008030928.53886.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <42E490EB6EDD4A69A1AC3A8C992D566E@OSA.local> <4C573E1A.30509@hachti.de> <201008030928.53886.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <201008030941.41167.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Tuesday, August 03, 2010, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > On Monday, August 02, 2010, Philipp Hachtmann wrote: > > I for example have a DG Nova 2 and nearly *NO* information about > > it. All I know is that the PSU and lights are OK. And that I can > > play around a bit. I have no reliable documentation. And no clue > > how to hook up a TTY or load software and all the like... > > > > That might sound a bit stupid... but... I got frustrated by the > > lack of *everything* for my Nova. All I have for the machine is > > plenty of core memory... > > > > Why is DG stuff not put onto Bitsavers? > > Because EMC (the current owners of the IPO) would send lawyers at Al > so quickly, your head would spin. Oops, that's supposed to read "IP" as in intellectual property. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Aug 3 09:13:32 2010 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2010 09:13:32 -0500 Subject: Mispronouncing acronyms In-Reply-To: References: <20100802235732.6FC981E025E@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> <4C57656A.8020506@aurigae.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <201008031415.o73EEwlL013446@billY.EZWIND.NET> At 07:48 PM 8/2/2010, Jason T wrote: >On Mon, Aug 2, 2010 at 7:40 PM, Phill Harvey-Smith > wrote: >> corrupted text screen it would be described as "my screen was full of ASCII >> characters" Well duuuhhh what do you think the normal ones are(1). Really? How could you be sure? Once they're on the screen, don't they look the same? >When my friends want to shop for "organic" vegetables, I ask them >where the silicon-based ones are... In the same aisle as the organic mineral supplements. - John From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Aug 3 09:35:46 2010 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2010 10:35:46 -0400 Subject: In Russia.. Ah forget it.. Impressive CPU collection In-Reply-To: <884333.48286.qm@web113505.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <884333.48286.qm@web113505.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4C582942.30400@gmail.com> Christian Liendo wrote: > I was trying to think of a "In Russia" joke, but this guys collection is rather impressive. In Soviet Russia, CPU's collect YOU? Peace... Sridhar From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Aug 3 09:39:05 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2010 07:39:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: In Russia.. Ah forget it.. Impressive CPU collection In-Reply-To: <4C582942.30400@gmail.com> from Sridhar Ayengar at "Aug 3, 10 10:35:46 am" Message-ID: <201008031439.o73Ed54k008004@floodgap.com> > > I was trying to think of a "In Russia" joke, but this guys collection is > > rather impressive. > > In Soviet Russia, CPU's collect YOU? In Soviet Russia, CPU registers YOU! (Get it? CPU registers?) -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Not sun-worshippers: Son-worshippers! -- Uhura, Star Trek "Bread & Circuses" From dkelvey at hotmail.com Tue Aug 3 10:07:54 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2010 08:07:54 -0700 Subject: intel MSD-720 In-Reply-To: <4C56FCF7.4020907@att.net> References: <4C56FCF7.4020907@att.net> Message-ID: Hi I believe this is the same drive box I got from Eric Smith in trade a few years back. If so, it was intended to go under a Series II MDS computer and as was mentioned was connected to a double density card set. This was the double density M2FM that Intel adopted ( thinking that IBM was going to adopt but didn't ). I was told that the drives have a slightly higher frequency response than the regular SA800's. Other than that, they are just drives and power supply. As I said, they were form fit to sit under the Series II. The Series II had an internal single density drive but most wanted the greater density for developement work. When I worked for Intel, I was responsible for the test of the data separator card that was part of the pair of cards used The orther card was a bit slice using 3000 series bitslice to run the states of the controller. It would be cool if it came with the cards as well. These can be plugged into any multibus as a disk controller. Dwight > Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2010 13:14:31 -0400 > From: shumaker at att.net > To: > Subject: intel MSD-720 > > can anyone shed some light on what this might be: > > Floppy Disk Drives (internal) 8" dual drive console, Intel MSD-720 > > item is listed in a large Craigs List ad that's been up essentially > unchanged for months > attempts to get more info out of the seller have been less than successful. > > the closest thing I can find is a reference to an "option 720" on > classiccomp's link to Joe's Intel MDS page. MDS 200 series apparently > had something called "option 720" but there's little info about it other > than it appears to be an external floppy unit. > > thoughts welcome.... > > > Steve From afra at aurigae.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 3 10:16:24 2010 From: afra at aurigae.demon.co.uk (afra at aurigae.demon.co.uk) Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2010 16:16:24 +0100 Subject: Mispronouncing acronyms In-Reply-To: <201008031415.o73EEwlL013446@billY.EZWIND.NET> References: <20100802235732.6FC981E025E@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> <4C57656A.8020506@aurigae.demon.co.uk> <201008031415.o73EEwlL013446@billY.EZWIND.NET> Message-ID: <20100803161624.19396mh7puia89c8@aurigae.demon.co.uk> Quoting John Foust : > At 07:48 PM 8/2/2010, Jason T wrote: >> On Mon, Aug 2, 2010 at 7:40 PM, Phill Harvey-Smith >> wrote: >>> corrupted text screen it would be described as "my screen was full of ASCII >>> characters" Well duuuhhh what do you think the normal ones are(1). > > Really? How could you be sure? Once they're on the screen, > don't they look the same? Well it was a college of FE and they pretty much only used PC clones which almost exclusivly use ASCII :) Now in my present job we did used to have an IBM system 36, which I believe used EBCDIC, we did have soem PCs with twinax cards running emulation software to access it. >> When my friends want to shop for "organic" vegetables, I ask them >> where the silicon-based ones are... > > In the same aisle as the organic mineral supplements. That's not such a good analogy, it's perfectly possible to have a mineral with an organic and a non organic part at least using the chemisty definition of organic...... Cheers. Phill. ---------------------------------------------------------------- This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. From legalize at xmission.com Tue Aug 3 10:20:30 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2010 09:20:30 -0600 Subject: In Russia.. Ah forget it.. Impressive CPU collection In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 03 Aug 2010 07:39:05 -0700. <201008031439.o73Ed54k008004@floodgap.com> Message-ID: In article <201008031439.o73Ed54k008004 at floodgap.com>, Cameron Kaiser writes: > In Soviet Russia, CPU registers YOU! > > (Get it? CPU registers?) Anyone on this list that doesn't get it without your parenthetical remark should humbly unsubscribe from this list. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Tue Aug 3 10:22:29 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2010 09:22:29 -0600 Subject: Mispronouncing acronyms In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 03 Aug 2010 09:13:32 -0500. <201008031415.o73EEwlL013446@billY.EZWIND.NET> Message-ID: My terminal crashed and now it only displays baudot. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Tue Aug 3 10:28:01 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2010 16:28:01 +0100 Subject: In Russia.. Ah forget it.. Impressive CPU collection In-Reply-To: <201008031439.o73Ed54k008004@floodgap.com> References: <201008031439.o73Ed54k008004@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <4C583581.2060800@philpem.me.uk> On 03/08/10 15:39, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > In Soviet Russia, CPU registers YOU! *groan* Cameron, that was awful. Go hang your head in shame... -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From cclist at sydex.com Tue Aug 3 11:37:32 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2010 09:37:32 -0700 Subject: intel MSD-720 In-Reply-To: References: <4C56FCF7.4020907@att.net>, Message-ID: <4C57E35C.26293.367642@cclist.sydex.com> On 3 Aug 2010 at 8:07, dwight elvey wrote: > It would be cool if it came with the cards as well. These can be > plugged into any multibus as a disk controller. "Cool" is not a word that comes to mind. I recall that the digital board ran very hot. Just funnin' with ya... --Chuck From thomas.gardner at sbcglobal.net Tue Aug 3 12:29:36 2010 From: thomas.gardner at sbcglobal.net (Tom Gardner) Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2010 10:29:36 -0700 Subject: Mispronouncing acronyms In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2B376D3C5FDD474A9CD3DA445893927D@tegp4> ... > > IBM had DASD (anyone pronouce it?); CDC had RMS. Crossing between > > the two cultures could be very confusing. > > I say "dazzdee". I've never heard anyone say "Dee Ay Ess Dee". It's mostly been Dazz Dee for me; however, occasionally I have heard or said Dee Ay Ess Dee How about IBM's CKD - always "See Kay Dee"? BTW, did anyone else use CKD (other than PCMs), perhaps RCA (who arguably was a PCM+)? And was the 3390-3 the last CKD DASD? Tom From uban at ubanproductions.com Tue Aug 3 13:27:54 2010 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2010 13:27:54 -0500 Subject: hard to find potentiometer In-Reply-To: <4C49EB57.7060501@gsi.de> References: <4C49EB57.7060501@gsi.de> Message-ID: <4C585FAA.3090003@ubanproductions.com> I am looking for a seemingly hard to find precision potentiometer. The broken original is a Bourns 3856A-282-504A and is a 3-3/4 turn 1/4 shaft 500K 10% linear device. Here is the spec sheet: http://www.bourns.com/pdfs/385126.pdf Does anyone know where I can obtain either an exact replacement or a similar part? --tnx --tom From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Aug 3 13:28:54 2010 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2010 14:28:54 -0400 Subject: Mispronouncing acronyms In-Reply-To: <2B376D3C5FDD474A9CD3DA445893927D@tegp4> References: <2B376D3C5FDD474A9CD3DA445893927D@tegp4> Message-ID: <4C585FE6.204@gmail.com> Tom Gardner wrote: >>> IBM had DASD (anyone pronouce it?); CDC had RMS. Crossing between >>> the two cultures could be very confusing. >> >> I say "dazzdee". I've never heard anyone say "Dee Ay Ess Dee". > > It's mostly been Dazz Dee for me; > however, occasionally I have heard or said Dee Ay Ess Dee > > How about IBM's CKD - always "See Kay Dee"? Most people I've heard say "see kay dee", but some people have said "sicd" as in "he sicd the dog on me". Peace... Sridhar From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Aug 3 13:31:39 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2010 14:31:39 -0400 Subject: Mispronouncing acronyms In-Reply-To: <2B376D3C5FDD474A9CD3DA445893927D@tegp4> References: <2B376D3C5FDD474A9CD3DA445893927D@tegp4> Message-ID: <4C58608B.1020202@neurotica.com> On 8/3/10 1:29 PM, Tom Gardner wrote: >>> IBM had DASD (anyone pronouce it?); CDC had RMS. Crossing between >>> the two cultures could be very confusing. >> >> I say "dazzdee". I've never heard anyone say "Dee Ay Ess Dee". > > It's mostly been Dazz Dee for me; > however, occasionally I have heard or said Dee Ay Ess Dee Eeek, that's pretty long! > How about IBM's CKD - always "See Kay Dee"? Once, exactly once, I've heard "sicked" and "fibba" for CKD and FBA. I spell out the letters. > BTW, did anyone else use CKD (other than PCMs), perhaps RCA (who arguably > was a PCM+)? I've never heard of it outside of IBM; it was pretty specific to their implementation as far as I know. > And was the 3390-3 the last CKD DASD? Hmm, good question! I don't have a ready reference to DASD model numbers and specs. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 3 12:47:19 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2010 18:47:19 +0100 (BST) Subject: retr0brite not so right? In-Reply-To: <4C54D447.8090003@jwsss.com> from "jim s" at Jul 31, 10 06:56:23 pm Message-ID: [Why not run a rare classic computer] > simply put, I'd like to have the machines available for those who might > want to examine them in 50 > years or so, and the parts are really really not available to address > repair, and having them blown up > now isn't such a good idea. There is one problem with this argument. That is that some parts will fail with age whether you run the machine or not. It's not that you have X thousand hours of running time which you can use up now, or keep for 100 years time. The decay of plastic parts, rollers, etc is well-known. So is bit-rot in EPROMs I(and some otehr programmed devices). And ICs will fail with time even if they are not powered on (althogh I will grant that they will last a lot longer if not powered on -- mostly...) The time to document machines, and work out repair methods is when they are working, not after htey have failed. A trivial example of this is a CRT-based monitor. When it is working, IMHO, you should record the CRT electrode votlages and any other voltages that are meaningful (e.g. supply lines derrived fro mteh flyback transformer). The point being, when it fails, you can re-take those votlages and see how they compare. And of course the time to make copies of EPROMs, etc, is when the machine sitll works. If it has fialed, you have no idea whether the data in said chips is still good. > > Anything one owns, you can run, back over with a truck, whatever, but > eventually it will fail and > be useless. One of a kind items without hope of finding parts run now > will have zero hope of Actually, for a lot of the rare machines I've come across (and worked on), most of the parts are still obtainable, some of them very easily obtainable. > ever being carefully restored and run at any point in the future if you > run it now and burn it up. > > And no matter how wonderful these things are we have to collect, if you > have one or two of the > more common items that function, do you really have to have 50 or 100 > that function and are at Well, if you have 100 fo the same machine, I would agree you don't have to run them all, But if you have 100 of the same machine, it can hardly be classed as 'rare'... If you have 100 different machines, I could see good reasons for wanting to run a particualr machine. An Apple 1 is very different to a PERQ2T4, after all... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 3 12:49:19 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2010 18:49:19 +0100 (BST) Subject: scammed an HP 98788A b & w monitor In-Reply-To: <677217.49547.qm@web65503.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> from "Chris M" at Aug 1, 10 04:54:27 pm Message-ID: > > not totally sure of it's overall health, but it kind of works thus far. > > apparently was used on an HP-UX w/s @ AT & T (so says the sticker). > > an unusual bugger. Unique amongst my jumbo monitors. > > Now only need the HP-UX station to go along w/it... If you've not already looked thrre, you might find some information, such as which machines it was used with, on http://www.hpmuseum.net/ -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 3 12:56:50 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2010 18:56:50 +0100 (BST) Subject: Mispronouncing acronyms In-Reply-To: from "Shoppa, Tim" at Aug 2, 10 04:05:52 pm Message-ID: > > My favorite was an undergraduate computing help desk that > Always managed to insist that the "vi" editor was pronounced "six". When I was first intalling Minix, almost 20 years ago, my late mother asked 'What on earth is Six?' :-). However, my mother, while very intellegent, was no way a compter person, so I think she can be forgiven. However for a help desk to do the same...ARGH! -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 3 12:39:25 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2010 18:39:25 +0100 (BST) Subject: preserving computers (was: retr0brite not so right?) In-Reply-To: from "joe lobocki" at Jul 31, 10 07:16:57 pm Message-ID: > > so wait, how much vacuum would destroy something? I have a few things > sealed in Foodsaver bags, is this enough vaccum to do damage? I doubt that;s a hard enough vacuum to do any harm.. I'd be more worried about static charges from the bags, actually. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 3 13:09:48 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2010 19:09:48 +0100 (BST) Subject: Mispronouncing acronyms In-Reply-To: <4C56D730.24720.12A9919@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Aug 2, 10 02:33:20 pm Message-ID: > Was once informed by a friend who worked as a field engineer for the > Maynard Mafia that "Deck" was officially frowned upon; one should > apparently always say "Digital" when in the presence of customers. Yes, I was told that too, which mwant I always called them 'Deck' if there ws a failed servoid in the room... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 3 14:09:10 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2010 20:09:10 +0100 (BST) Subject: retr0brite not so right? In-Reply-To: from "Richard" at Aug 2, 10 05:10:39 pm Message-ID: > Just so its clear: I would never allow "one of a kind" items to be > operated. For things like that, you create a replica/simulacrum I really don't see the point in owning or presrving a machine if you never operate it. Sure you don't let j-random-plubinc lose on it, but surely you'd run it yourself or let other clueful people hace a go. I have been lent some fairly rare machines (<20 know to exist) with the lender knowing I am going to take them apart. As he said 'I have them for educatiunal reasons, and you want to use them for learning'. (And yes, I did put them back together again, working...) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 3 14:12:19 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2010 20:12:19 +0100 (BST) Subject: Mispronouncing acronyms In-Reply-To: <4C57656A.8020506@aurigae.demon.co.uk> from "Phill Harvey-Smith" at Aug 3, 10 01:40:10 am Message-ID: > The other one I used to here about ASCII, was when a program crashed > with a corrupted text screen it would be described as "my screen was > full of ASCII characters" Well duuuhhh what do you think the normal ones > are(1). Actually more often than not it was full of extended ASCII.... I think I'd be more likely to say 'Myt screen was full of non-ASCII characters', meaning (in this case) ones from the IBM PC exteneded character set with bit 7 set. ASCII is a 7 bit code, after all.. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 3 14:30:37 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2010 20:30:37 +0100 (BST) Subject: Pronouncing acronyms (was Re: DEC acronyms) In-Reply-To: from "Rod Smallwood" at Aug 3, 10 05:34:19 am Message-ID: > > > 1. I once nearly took a job with them > 2. I thought they were called Ball as opposed to Balls. You are probslby right... > 3. I have several of the Ball VT100 boards referred to but lack a = > circuit > diagram to fix them. It would be a Ball diagram as opposed to a DEC one. > > 4. No, the circuit is not in any of the DEC VT100 manuals. Hang on a second...I know from your positings here that you are clueful.... And the VT100 video board -- any version -- is pretty simple. So why not trace out the scheamtic. It wouldn't take more than an afternoon... I think all the versions of VT100 video board that I've seen use the same flyback transfoemr (separately mounted on the chssis) which is a great help. Figuring out the windings of the flyback is a pain, becuase they have such a low DC resistnace that the show as a dead short on most ohmmeter. Desodler any low-resistnace compoennts from the PCB (inductoctors, transfofmers, fuses, etc ) before you start, and then start tracing connections with an ohmmeter. You amy find much fo the ciruitry is similar to one of the boards in the manual, which is a help. If I can mange to do machines with a couple of hundred ICs, then I am sure yoy can manage the VT100 video board... -tony From RichA at vulcan.com Tue Aug 3 15:00:16 2010 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2010 13:00:16 -0700 Subject: Mystery print drum In-Reply-To: <20100802173934.V35000@shell.lmi.net> References: , , <4C55E9CF.5920.3283BF5@cclist.sydex.com> <4C568C6A.3061.6858E@cclist.sydex.com> <4C57636D.1040709@gmail.com> <20100802173934.V35000@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: From: Fred Cisin Sent: Monday, August 02, 2010 5:44 PM >>> The 64 character rows are laid out, thusly: >>> 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 . 8 , 9 - E T A I S O N H R D L U C M F W Y P G >>> 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 . 8 , 9 - V B K J $ * Q X Z # / + : = ' ( ) > < On Mon, 2 Aug 2010, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >> I'm not familiar with the layout, but 160 columns makes me think Tally. > When using frequency of usage for probabilities in code breaking, the most > common sequence (from most common letter to least) is often > E T A I O N S H R D L U That's for English. Other Latin-alphabet languages will have different frequencies. Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.PDPplanet.org/ http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From RichA at vulcan.com Tue Aug 3 15:10:06 2010 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2010 13:10:06 -0700 Subject: Mispronouncing acronyms In-Reply-To: <4C57402B.28155.2C4B012@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4C56C98A.29425.F54A6F@cclist.sydex.com>, <4C5787C3.7000405@brouhaha.com> <4C57402B.28155.2C4B012@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: From: Chuck Guzis Sent: Monday, August 02, 2010 10:01 PM > Okay, so who pronouces assembly mnemonics? (As far as I can recall, > I've only been guilty of pronoucing BXLE as "bixle".) PDP-10 programmers as a group generally pronounce many, if not all, assembler mnemonics. Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.PDPplanet.org/ http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From RichA at vulcan.com Tue Aug 3 15:20:41 2010 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2010 13:20:41 -0700 Subject: Mispronouncing acronyms In-Reply-To: <20100803105747.1C10E1E0226@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> References: <20100803105747.1C10E1E0226@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: From: Tim Shoppa Sent: Tuesday, August 03, 2010 3:58 AM Mark wrote: >> At 22:17 -0500 8/2/10, Tim wrote: >>> Tim "Excessive force in the apprehension of abused acronyms has been >>> approved" Shoppa. >> Ah! a quote from one of my favorites - "The Big Blues Brothers" > Of course the Blues Brothers had their own computer acronym: > SCMODS = State County and Municipal Offender Data System > pronounced Skamods with a distinct tone of disdain by Elwood IIRC. It was real, if not necessarily accurately portrayed. > The cop car terminals looked pretty slick for 1980. Almost like mobile PLATO > terminals with their orange plasma display. Maybe it was an actual > Motorola product? Of course Motorola and PLATO were also suburban > Chicago/Illinois tie-ins :-). And the mall that gets destroyed, I have > been told, was (previous to being a mall) one of the Teletype factories > in Skokie. Actually, it was a defunct, bankrupt shopping mall in a southwest suburb, standing in for a non-existent shopping mall in the northwest suburb of Park Ridge.[1] At least, that's what we all knew in Chicago when the movie came out. [1] Suburban Chicago is divided into Near North, Far North, Northwest, Western, Southwest, and South. Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.PDPplanet.org/ http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Aug 3 15:21:52 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2010 13:21:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Mystery print drum In-Reply-To: References: , , <4C55E9CF.5920.3283BF5@cclist.sydex.com> <4C568C6A.3061.6858E@cclist.sydex.com> <4C57636D.1040709@gmail.com> <20100802173934.V35000@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20100803131320.K77280@shell.lmi.net> > >>> The 64 character rows are laid out, thusly: > >>> 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 . 8 , 9 - E T A I S O N H R D L U C M F W Y P G > >>> 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 . 8 , 9 - V B K J $ * Q X Z # / + : = ' ( ) > < > > When using frequency of usage for probabilities in code breaking, the most > > common sequence (from most common letter to least) is often > > E T A I O N S H R D L U On Tue, 3 Aug 2010, Rich Alderson wrote: > That's for English. Other Latin-alphabet languages will have different > frequencies. Absolutely! I think that French has 'L' near the top. Can you think of what language has 'S' a few characters closer to the top than English? Is there any significance to which characters are NOT present? (such as '?' ';') From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Aug 3 15:27:29 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2010 16:27:29 -0400 Subject: Mispronouncing acronyms In-Reply-To: References: <20100803105747.1C10E1E0226@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: > Actually, it was a defunct, bankrupt shopping mall in a southwest suburb, > standing in for a non-existent shopping mall in the northwest suburb of > Park Ridge.[1] > > At least, that's what we all knew in Chicago when the movie came out. Some (a very little) of the street scenes are actually Park Ridge. -- Will From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Tue Aug 3 15:47:37 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2010 21:47:37 +0100 Subject: retr0brite not so right? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C588069.7050708@philpem.me.uk> On 02/08/10 19:36, Tony Duell wrote: > Even if I had to spend it on classic computers, the Apple 1 would not be > high up the list :-). Agreed. As I've said, I'd rather like a SYM-1, KIM-1 or AIM-65. But given that I've talked to a couple of people who said "yeah, I've got loads of those in a warehouse, you can have one" and then dropped off the face of the earth... I'm not hopeful. Actually at this point I'd settle for getting my Jupiter Ace motherboard back from Lee Davison. Again, chance close to nil. Even getting a bare Ace PCB or a broken Ace to fix would be nice... I'd build up the bare PCB on the grounds that: - It'll be a fun evening's work - I know other people have bare PCBs and that they're not "one-off" rare (AIUI a box of them was sold off when Jupiter Cantab went bust) - As a bare board, it's as useful and as entertaining as a brick. Build it up and it becomes a whole lot more interesting. > Err, the Apple 1 is a single-board machine :-) Yes, but not the sort of machine I was thinking of (a "microcomputer trainer" type thing). > Hmm, we will ahve to agree to disagree, I think. I regard the Apple ][ as > one of the worst designs ever because it's such a minimal parts count > (IMHO a few more chips would ahve made it a lot better). In some ways it is a completely evil design. Reverse engineering it is diabolically hard, and I think some parts of the design must have been conceived by a madman or a masochist. But getting the parts count down that far? Cool. > But I feel the > BBC Micro is one of the best (if not _the_ best) 8 bitters. A very > elegant design... The BBC is a lovely design. From an expandability point of view alone it's something that -- even today -- is worth keeping on or near an electronics workbench with a User-Port-to-breadboard cable. And if you need a few more I/Os, there's always the 1MHz Bus. They make terrific logic pattern generators, the BASIC has full floating point and a good range of math operators (I don't have a full list to hand, but IIRC it at least has sine, cosine and tangent, and possible arc-tangent as well) and the machine itself is built like a Chieftain tank. Plus if something goes wrong, it's all LSTTL or easily obtainable parts (aside from a ULA or two and possibly the SAA5050). If you had to, then there's almost certainly enough documentation (reverse engineered and otherwise) to rebuild a BBC Micro video or serial ULA. Keeping the machine running wouldn't be a problem... Well, as long as you had a supply of spare 100nF X2 capacitors for the power supply filter. Those go pop at an alarming rate, and have a rotten tendency of caking the innards of the machine with brown ichor when they do. -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Aug 3 16:05:21 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2010 14:05:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Mystery print drum In-Reply-To: <20100803131320.K77280@shell.lmi.net> from Fred Cisin at "Aug 3, 10 01:21:52 pm" Message-ID: <201008032105.o73L5L50013022@floodgap.com> > Can you think of what language has 'S' a few characters closer to the top > than English? I bet Spanish. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- "Another day, another dangling modifier" ----------------------------------- From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Aug 3 16:28:20 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2010 14:28:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Mystery print drum In-Reply-To: <201008032105.o73L5L50013022@floodgap.com> References: <201008032105.o73L5L50013022@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <20100803142156.B77280@shell.lmi.net> > > Can you think of what language has 'S' a few characters closer to the top > > than English? On Tue, 3 Aug 2010, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > I bet Spanish. But, if it were intended for Spanish, then I would expect a few other changes: regular and inverted question marks and exclamation points (tho this example has no question marks nor exclamation points at all) a tilde that can be placed over some 'N's (overstrike?) (ever see the CalTrans signs for "La Canada Road"?) The single quote that is present could function of any needed accent marks From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Aug 3 16:30:54 2010 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2010 17:30:54 -0400 Subject: Mystery print drum In-Reply-To: <20100803142156.B77280@shell.lmi.net> References: <201008032105.o73L5L50013022@floodgap.com> <20100803142156.B77280@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4C588A8E.5000900@gmail.com> Fred Cisin wrote: >>> Can you think of what language has 'S' a few characters closer to the top >>> than English? > > On Tue, 3 Aug 2010, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> I bet Spanish. > > But, if it were intended for Spanish, then I would expect a few other > changes: German? Peace... Sridhar From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Aug 3 16:32:51 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2010 14:32:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Mystery print drum In-Reply-To: <20100803142156.B77280@shell.lmi.net> from Fred Cisin at "Aug 3, 10 02:28:20 pm" Message-ID: <201008032132.o73LWpgm014536@floodgap.com> > > > Can you think of what language has 'S' a few characters closer to the top > > > than English? > > On Tue, 3 Aug 2010, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > I bet Spanish. > > But, if it were intended for Spanish, then I would expect a few other > changes: > regular and inverted question marks and exclamation points (tho > this example has no question marks nor exclamation points at all) > > a tilde that can be placed over some 'N's (overstrike?) > (ever see the CalTrans signs for "La Canada Road"?) > > The single quote that is present could function of any needed > accent marks I'm not so sure based on the wheel, though. My Spanish is second-hand but I am not aware of any minimal pairs where the tilde is the only distinction between two otherwise homonymous words. Accenture is definitely helpful but not a dealbreaker (but as you note, the existing characters could be mixed). -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- For every action there is an equal and opposite criticism. ----------------- From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Tue Aug 3 16:43:41 2010 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2010 14:43:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: DG 800/1200 questions - data cassettes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <557915.69193.qm@web80506.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I have bought data cassette tapes for an NCR digital tape unit on Ebay. >From this guy: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=180535980883&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT About 30 cents each or so. I don't know if this is the type that the DG systems need or not. Bob --- On Mon, 8/2/10, Geoffrey Reed wrote: > From: Geoffrey Reed > Subject: Re: DG 800/1200 questions > To: "cctalk" , "Joost van de Griek" > Date: Monday, August 2, 2010, 7:16 PM > On 8/2/10 5:03 PM, "Joost van de > Griek" > wrote: > > > On 2 August 2010 20:32, Tony Duell > wrote: > > > >> AFAIK apart from that notch, they are mechanically > the same -- same > >> positieond of spools, capstan holes, head access > hole, etc. Same design > >> of spool/hub. Same position of the write-protect > hole. I don't think > >> there were any mirros for optical sensorts in the > data cassetes either, > >> but they may well have detected the clear leader > by reflecitons off the > >> cassette shell, so only light-coloured cassettes > would work. > > > > Well, I've definitely seen black streamer cassettes > (being offered). > > What I meant was, they might have been engineered to a > higher standard > > than your average audio cassette. > > > > .tsooJ > > > > /me hangs head in shame... > > About 20 years ago I had a bunch of audio recorded on old > data cassettes and > gave them all away about 10 years ago. > > > From cclist at sydex.com Tue Aug 3 17:14:36 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2010 15:14:36 -0700 Subject: Mystery print drum In-Reply-To: <201008032132.o73LWpgm014536@floodgap.com> References: <20100803142156.B77280@shell.lmi.net> from Fred Cisin at "Aug 3, 10 02:28:20 pm", <201008032132.o73LWpgm014536@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <4C58325C.1963.16B117E@cclist.sydex.com> Does no one here do the daily Cryptoquote in the newspaper? If you do, you already realize that, regardless of the Linotype keyboard, letter frequency in English is highly variable, depending on the sample used. About all that can be said is that E is the most frequently-occurring letter in the English language. After that, the also-ran slots are up for grabs. See, for example: http://www.atlas-games.com/pdf_storage/lh_frequencies.pdf So it's quite likely that the positions on the print drum were determined by an independent analysis of a sample text. --Chuck From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Tue Aug 3 17:15:05 2010 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2010 23:15:05 +0100 Subject: Anyone want up to 3 MicroVAX 3100 Model 30s Message-ID: <001801cb3359$54c28050$fe4780f0$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> I have 3 MicroVAX 3100 Model 30s given to me by someone who is leaving the country and could not take them with him. I took them rather than see them discarded. They each have 8Mb onboard memory. They do not have any disks and the cover on the storage bay is missing. One of them has a little bit of damage to the rear plastic panel. I cleaned out all the dust and powered them up, they all booted to the console prompt just fine. They are in Greater Manchester, England. Regards Rob From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Tue Aug 3 17:38:38 2010 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2010 23:38:38 +0100 Subject: Anyone want up to 3 MicroVAX 3100 Model 30s In-Reply-To: <001801cb3359$54c28050$fe4780f0$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> References: <001801cb3359$54c28050$fe4780f0$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <003301cb335c$9f7fc5f0$de7f51d0$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Rob Jarratt > Sent: 03 August 2010 23:15 > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > Subject: Anyone want up to 3 MicroVAX 3100 Model 30s > > I have 3 MicroVAX 3100 Model 30s given to me by someone who is leaving > the > country and could not take them with him. I took them rather than see > them > discarded. They each have 8Mb onboard memory. They do not have any > disks and > the cover on the storage bay is missing. One of them has a little bit > of > damage to the rear plastic panel. > > I cleaned out all the dust and powered them up, they all booted to the > console prompt just fine. > > They are in Greater Manchester, England. > > Regards > > Rob And I forgot to say, they are of course free. Regards Rob From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Tue Aug 3 18:38:47 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Wed, 04 Aug 2010 00:38:47 +0100 Subject: Mystery print drum In-Reply-To: <4C588A8E.5000900@gmail.com> References: <201008032105.o73L5L50013022@floodgap.com> <20100803142156.B77280@shell.lmi.net> <4C588A8E.5000900@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4C58A887.7090407@philpem.me.uk> On 03/08/10 22:30, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > German? Not without the Eszett (the German letter that looks like a Greek 'beta'). -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Aug 3 18:44:28 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2010 16:44:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Mystery print drum In-Reply-To: <4C58A887.7090407@philpem.me.uk> from Philip Pemberton at "Aug 4, 10 00:38:47 am" Message-ID: <201008032344.o73NiSDD012570@floodgap.com> > > German? > > Not without the Eszett (the German letter that looks like a Greek 'beta'). Under current spelling rules, though, you could get away with 'ss' (I defer to Hans et al., of course). -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- If you're not very clever, you should be conciliatory. -- Benjamin Disraeli From cclist at sydex.com Tue Aug 3 19:31:34 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2010 17:31:34 -0700 Subject: Mystery print drum In-Reply-To: <201008032344.o73NiSDD012570@floodgap.com> References: <4C58A887.7090407@philpem.me.uk> from Philip Pemberton at "Aug 4, 10 00:38:47 am", <201008032344.o73NiSDD012570@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <4C585276.1225.1E8751A@cclist.sydex.com> Have a look at this page from the Sunday, December 15, 1935 Rochester Democrat and Chronicle under the column headed "Even The Crypt Has 'Don'ts'". Look familiar? Everyone doesn't agree on "Etaoin Shrdlu" http://tinyurl.com/294zc5o I wonder if the drum isn't from a GE or SDS-badged printer. --Chuck P.S. I heard it from Neil Lincoln that the "ETA Systems" name *was* based on ETAOIN SHRDLU. This was at about the time that ETA was just getting going, long before the first machine was built and the machine to be was still being referred to as the "GF-10". From stephane.tsacas at gmail.com Tue Aug 3 21:17:57 2010 From: stephane.tsacas at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?St=E9phane_Tsacas?=) Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2010 04:17:57 +0200 Subject: Lot of PDP-11/84 on ebay in Boston In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Jul 28, 2010 at 15:01, Richard wrote: > ... > No, he has the same picture of a group of 5 for each of the 5 auctions > selling of an individual machine. > > > BTW, if those were located in paris, France, I would have bought them > (less > > than 100 euros/pdp is a fair price here). > > Its 5x the price you are thinking. > You are right. The auctions ended tonight without any bid. -- Stephane http://updatedoften.blogspot.com From hachti at hachti.de Tue Aug 3 21:26:17 2010 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Wed, 04 Aug 2010 04:26:17 +0200 Subject: To scrap or not to scrap? Message-ID: <4C58CFC9.5040907@hachti.de> Hi, just followed the thread about ENIAC pieces and went to the website announcing a VCF southeast. There I saw announced sales of Arcnet and Token Ring adapters. That was the inspiration for this posting. * I came across a box of Token Ring and Arcnet stuff. Mostly NICs. * IBM PC AT and around * Sun Ultra 1 (or 5?) pizza boxes * 5.25" and 8" disk floppy drives and HDDs * Philips P4500 computer (or 5400?) Is there any interest in that kind of stuff? Might that be of sufficient quality (quantity isn't the problem) for a dedicated flea market event? Opinions very welcome. And btw I'm talking about stuff in Northern Germany... Regards, Philipp From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Aug 3 21:53:19 2010 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2010 21:53:19 -0500 Subject: Maker Faire review Message-ID: <201008040253.o742rO0d047381@billY.EZWIND.NET> I attended the Detroit Maker Faire this past weekend. Quite fun! Amazing and inspirational geekdom. A combination computer show, robot demo, tech consciousness raising, Scout jamboree and university recruiting fair. Vehicles with real flames. The crowd? Mom, Dad and the kids, regular geeks, geeks with tats and corsets. Cast your own cannonballs from scrap iron. Life-size Mouse Trap game. Guitars. Marshmallow guns. For a buck, you could buy a kit and sit down at a station to solder your own blinking LED merit badge, and dozens were doing that continuously. EepyBird did their Coke and Mentos show. Quite a few Arduino-powered gizmos. MakerBots with various heads like 3D printing with melted ABS plastic. There was one guy who'd made his own CPU from the ground up, with an Altair-era style front panel. About 250 booths, I believe. Overall, I thought it was quite inspirational. A wide range of ages and abilities in play, all enthusiastic about making things, learning to repair things, hacking in a playful way. I think any classic computer exhibit would be well-received. I don't think Detroit was as funky as it gets when the MF is in San Francisco. On the other hand, it took place in the parking lots of the Henry Ford Museum / Greenfield Village, so there was plenty to see in terms of old machinery. By some great coincidence, the kids watched a special on Nikola Tesla on the History Channel shortly before we went to Greenfield Village, so they could see through the endless pro-Edison material. While admiring the steam locomotive roundhouse, Air Force One flew overhead. Being in Detroit also gave me a chance to spend a little time with my old friend Sheldon Leemon ("Mapping the Commodore 64") and his wife. - John From trixter at oldskool.org Tue Aug 3 22:10:55 2010 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2010 22:10:55 -0500 Subject: Mispronouncing acronyms In-Reply-To: <4C56C98A.29425.F54A6F@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4C56C98A.29425.F54A6F@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4C58DA3F.3060706@oldskool.org> On 8/2/2010 3:35 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Does no one remember Veetock? (VTOC) I do, and occasionally still use it. My #1 pet peeve is GIF. I've always pronounced the g as in graphics, because that's what it stands for. When I hear people pronounce it as "jif" like the peanut butter, it raises my hackles. In a spot of idiocy, Unisys's actual paper says you're supposed to pronounce it "jif" and that's just stupid. It's not a "jraphics interchange format" and yet they stick to that like peanut butter: http://www.olsenhome.com/gif/ So yes, I am calling the inventors of GIF complete idiots. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From dkelvey at hotmail.com Tue Aug 3 22:29:34 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2010 20:29:34 -0700 Subject: intel MSD-720 In-Reply-To: <4C57E35C.26293.367642@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4C56FCF7.4020907@att.net>, , , <4C57E35C.26293.367642@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > From: cclist at sydex.com > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2010 09:37:32 -0700 > Subject: RE: intel MSD-720 > > On 3 Aug 2010 at 8:07, dwight elvey wrote: > > > It would be cool if it came with the cards as well. These can be > > plugged into any multibus as a disk controller. > > "Cool" is not a word that comes to mind. I recall that the digital > board ran very hot. > > Just funnin' with ya... > Hi Chuck The bitslice was Schottky ttl so it ran quite hot. The ROMs were ttl as well. So no joke, it definitely needed a fan. Programming the address controller for the 3000 series parts was like playing chess. Only there was different ways to move on the board map. Dwight Dwight From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Aug 3 22:40:00 2010 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2010 23:40:00 -0400 Subject: Mystery print drum In-Reply-To: <4C58A887.7090407@philpem.me.uk> References: <201008032105.o73L5L50013022@floodgap.com> <20100803142156.B77280@shell.lmi.net> <4C588A8E.5000900@gmail.com> <4C58A887.7090407@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4C58E110.3010202@gmail.com> Philip Pemberton wrote: >> German? > > Not without the Eszett (the German letter that looks like a Greek 'beta'). The eszet isn't really required. Neither, strictly speaking, are umlauts. Peace... Sridhar (I'm fluent in German, BTW.) From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Aug 3 22:47:15 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2010 20:47:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Maker Faire review In-Reply-To: <201008040253.o742rO0d047381@billY.EZWIND.NET> from John Foust at "Aug 3, 10 09:53:19 pm" Message-ID: <201008040347.o743lFob012600@floodgap.com> > While admiring the steam locomotive roundhouse, Air Force One > flew overhead. Being in Detroit also gave me a chance to spend > a little time with my old friend Sheldon Leemon ("Mapping the > Commodore 64") and his wife. Wow! Tell him that book is my practical Bible for Commodore programming. I use it more than the PRG. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- LOAD"STANDARD DISCLAIMER",8,1 ---------------------------------------------- From dkelvey at hotmail.com Tue Aug 3 22:52:44 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2010 20:52:44 -0700 Subject: retr0brite not so right? In-Reply-To: <4C588069.7050708@philpem.me.uk> References: ,<4C588069.7050708@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: > From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk > > On 02/08/10 19:36, Tony Duell wrote: > > Even if I had to spend it on classic computers, the Apple 1 would not be > > high up the list :-). > > Agreed. As I've said, I'd rather like a SYM-1, KIM-1 or AIM-65. Hi I've got all three. I even have one of the KTM-2 terminal boards for the SYM-1 and a disk board called FDC-1 ( a common name ). I've been meaning to put the bunch together to make a system. I've got a Jupiter Ace as well with the US video scan rate ( slower processor speed as well ). Dwight From jws at jwsss.com Mon Aug 2 17:54:48 2010 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2010 15:54:48 -0700 Subject: preserving computers (was: retr0brite not so right?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C574CB8.70103@jwsss.com> On 7/31/2010 5:16 PM, joe lobocki wrote: > so wait, how much vacuum would destroy something? I have a few things > sealed in Foodsaver bags, is this enough vaccum to do damage? > Evacuated bags really still leave the enclosed material at atmospheric pressure. The problem would arise if you had a piece of plastic in actual hard vacuum and the plastics and volatiles would gradually sublime into the surrounding. All that vacuum packing should do is ensure a very tight fit of the plastic to the stored object. I'd worry more about the stuff you have trapped inside, and whether the vacuum plastic enclosure is acid free, or is nonreactive with what you have stored. > On 7/31/10, Tony Duell wrote: > >>> So, everything needs to be in a vacuum in the dark? >>> >> I would think a vacuum would be a very bad idea. Plenty of things will >> outgass (and thus change their properties) in a moderate vacuum. >> >> -tony >> >> > > From philpem at philpem.me.uk Mon Aug 2 13:39:19 2010 From: philpem at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2010 19:39:19 +0100 Subject: OT? Tek 4014 emulator (tying Xterm to ttyS0) Message-ID: <4C5710D7.3050307@philpem.me.uk> Hi guys, I'm building some hardware that spits out debug info on a regular basis, and I figured it'd be useful to have this data graphed on-screen. Making it keep track of the last "N" samples and draw them wouldn't be hard, except adding an LCD display is out of the question (takes up too many I/O pins). On the other hand, I have a perfectly good serial port which runs at a decent rate of speed (115200 baud), and Xterm can emulate a Tektronix 4014 vector terminal. Perfect... except I can't see an easy way to tie Xterm to a serial port instead of having it run an application. There's nothing in the manpage (admittedly I haven't read it all, just grepped it for a few obvious terms) and 'apropos' isn't finding anything useful. I've been told that tip(1) on BSD will do what I want, I just can't find anything similar on Linux... Thanks, -- Phil. philpem at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From bqt at softjar.se Mon Aug 2 19:37:38 2010 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2010 02:37:38 +0200 Subject: Mispronouncing acronyms In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C5764D2.5060302@softjar.se> Jason T wrote: > Surely covered on this list before, but I will re-open the box: > > SQL. > > I say "ess kyu ell." I rarely hear "sickle," although that makes > some sense. I *always* hear "sequel," which requires some more > imagination. It's only a hunch, but I suspect this originated from > the dark halls of Redmond. Nowadays, with wikipedia and all, one would think that people would actually check things up... :-) See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sql, under the history section... I'd say "sequel" is almost more correct than "ess kyu ell". :-) But of course everyone is free to pronounce it any way they see fit. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From bqt at softjar.se Mon Aug 2 19:41:33 2010 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2010 02:41:33 +0200 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 84, Issue 5 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C5765BD.8000601@softjar.se> Philip Pemberton wrote: > Hi guys, > > I'm building some hardware that spits out debug info on a regular basis, > and I figured it'd be useful to have this data graphed on-screen. Making > it keep track of the last "N" samples and draw them wouldn't be hard, > except adding an LCD display is out of the question (takes up too many > I/O pins). > > On the other hand, I have a perfectly good serial port which runs at a > decent rate of speed (115200 baud), and Xterm can emulate a Tektronix > 4014 vector terminal. Perfect... except I can't see an easy way to tie > Xterm to a serial port instead of having it run an application. xterm -e kermit However, this also begs the question, what is plotting the the data, if you just output debug information? Some application I would assume...? Why not have that application written on your linux system, and run it inside an xterm, and have the application read the data from the serial port, and then output the approriate stuff to control the window? > There's nothing in the manpage (admittedly I haven't read it all, just > grepped it for a few obvious terms) and 'apropos' isn't finding anything > useful. I've been told that tip(1) on BSD will do what I want, I just > can't find anything similar on Linux... tip probably don't exist on Linux, but all you need to know is that tip is a program to connect yourself out on a serial port. Any other program that do the same thing works equally well. And I have yet to see any program that works better for this kind of thing than kermit. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From csquared3 at tx.rr.com Mon Aug 2 23:40:12 2010 From: csquared3 at tx.rr.com (Charlie Carothers) Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2010 23:40:12 -0500 Subject: Mystery print drum In-Reply-To: <4C55E9CF.5920.3283BF5@cclist.sydex.com> References: , , <4C55E9CF.5920.3283BF5@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4C579DAC.9070102@tx.rr.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 1 Aug 2010 at 23:39, Mike Loewen wrote: > >> On Sun, 1 Aug 2010, Mike Loewen wrote: >> >>> I have an unidentified drum from a line printer, 120 columns and >>> 64 >>> characters. The characters are the same on each horizontal line, >>> and the drum is one solid piece. Can anyone hazard a guess as to >>> which printer this might fit? There are no part numbers on it. >> Oops, that should be 160 columns, not 120. > > Univac and CDC both had drum printers in the 60s/70s with 6-bit > character sets. > > --Chuck > > I'm pretty sure the Data Products ones we used had 6-bit character sets as well. However ISTR they were only 132 columns, though DP could well have made 160 column ones as well. Later, Charlie C. From c.murray.mccullough at gmail.com Tue Aug 3 16:50:20 2010 From: c.murray.mccullough at gmail.com (Murray McCullough) Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2010 17:50:20 -0400 Subject: Aug 3 1977 The TRS-80 was launched. Message-ID: I remember the days after quite well. Being from Canada it wasn't available here right away. I went to Rochester, N.Y. to see it at a computer store. Boy, did this computer geeks eyes light up! I did eventually get one that summer. Murray-- From chrise at pobox.com Tue Aug 3 20:11:20 2010 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2010 20:11:20 -0500 Subject: Mispronouncing acronyms In-Reply-To: References: <4C56D730.24720.12A9919@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20100804011120.GV8300@n0jcf.net> Are those little diodes that emit light called L-E-Ds or are they leads? You know, like you put in a mechanical pencil? The plural of Pb... A single one is a led-- like what you did when you took the horse to water. Drives me nuts. -- Chris Elmquist From csquared3 at tx.rr.com Tue Aug 3 20:41:36 2010 From: csquared3 at tx.rr.com (Charlie Carothers) Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2010 20:41:36 -0500 Subject: Mystery print drum In-Reply-To: <20100803131320.K77280@shell.lmi.net> References: , , <4C55E9CF.5920.3283BF5@cclist.sydex.com> <4C568C6A.3061.6858E@cclist.sydex.com> <4C57636D.1040709@gmail.com> <20100802173934.V35000@shell.lmi.net> <20100803131320.K77280@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4C58C550.2070408@tx.rr.com> Fred Cisin wrote: >>>>> The 64 character rows are laid out, thusly: >>>>> 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 . 8 , 9 - E T A I S O N H R D L U C M F W Y P G >>>>> 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 . 8 , 9 - V B K J $ * Q X Z # / + : = ' ( ) > < >>> When using frequency of usage for probabilities in code breaking, the most >>> common sequence (from most common letter to least) is often >>> E T A I O N S H R D L U > > On Tue, 3 Aug 2010, Rich Alderson wrote: >> That's for English. Other Latin-alphabet languages will have different >> frequencies. > > Absolutely! > > I think that French has 'L' near the top. > > Can you think of what language has 'S' a few characters closer to the top > than English? > > Is there any significance to which characters are NOT present? > (such as '?' ';') It was not intended to print C code listings? I'm just trying to be funny of course, and you'd miss a lot more than just the ';'. However, if you're like me and pretty much loathe the ternary operator, you might not miss the '?' at all... Later, Charlie C. From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Aug 3 22:53:57 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2010 20:53:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Mystery print drum In-Reply-To: <4C58325C.1963.16B117E@cclist.sydex.com> References: <20100803142156.B77280@shell.lmi.net> from Fred Cisin at "Aug 3, 10 02:28:20 pm", <201008032132.o73LWpgm014536@floodgap.com> <4C58325C.1963.16B117E@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20100803205302.C91775@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 3 Aug 2010, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Does no one here do the daily Cryptoquote in the newspaper? > If you do, you already realize that, regardless of the Linotype > keyboard, letter frequency in English is highly variable, depending > on the sample used. About all that can be said is that E is the most > frequently-occurring letter in the English language. After that, the > also-ran slots are up for grabs. See, for example: > http://www.atlas-games.com/pdf_storage/lh_frequencies.pdf > So it's quite likely that the positions on the print drum were > determined by an independent analysis of a sample text. That's why I said "most common sequence" From cclist at sydex.com Tue Aug 3 23:16:24 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2010 21:16:24 -0700 Subject: Mispronouncing acronyms In-Reply-To: <20100804011120.GV8300@n0jcf.net> References: <4C56D730.24720.12A9919@cclist.sydex.com>, , <20100804011120.GV8300@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <4C588728.5361.2B64C0D@cclist.sydex.com> On 3 Aug 2010 at 20:11, Chris Elmquist wrote: > > Are those little diodes that emit light called L-E-Ds or are they > leads? You know, like you put in a mechanical pencil? The plural of > Pb... > > A single one is a led-- like what you did when you took the horse to > water. Always have said it "Ellie Dee". A good name for a female offspring. Her twin sister can be "Elsie Dee". --Chuck From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Aug 3 23:47:27 2010 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2010 22:47:27 -0600 Subject: Mystery print drum In-Reply-To: <4C58C550.2070408@tx.rr.com> References: , , <4C55E9CF.5920.3283BF5@cclist.sydex.com> <4C568C6A.3061.6858E@cclist.sydex.com> <4C57636D.1040709@gmail.com> <20100802173934.V35000@shell.lmi.net> <20100803131320.K77280@shell.lmi.net> <4C58C550.2070408@tx.rr.com> Message-ID: <4C58F0DF.7080108@jetnet.ab.ca> Charlie Carothers wrote: > I'm just trying to be funny of course, and you'd miss a lot more than > just the ';'. However, if you're like me and pretty much loathe the > ternary operator, you might not miss the '?' at all... > Later, > Charlie C. I DON'T MISS THE BANG BANG BANG OF THE DRUM HAMMERS > > BEN From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Aug 3 23:57:34 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2010 21:57:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Mystery print drum In-Reply-To: <4C58F0DF.7080108@jetnet.ab.ca> References: , , <4C55E9CF.5920.3283BF5@cclist.sydex.com> <4C568C6A.3061.6858E@cclist.sydex.com> <4C57636D.1040709@gmail.com> <20100802173934.V35000@shell.lmi.net> <20100803131320.K77280@shell.lmi.net> <4C58C550.2070408@tx.rr.com> <4C58F0DF.7080108@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <20100803215623.K91775@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 3 Aug 2010, Ben wrote: > I DON'T MISS THE BANG BANG BANG OF THE DRUM HAMMERS and we spoke in all upper case in those days, just to be heard over the din (D.I.N.?) From silent700 at gmail.com Wed Aug 4 00:46:29 2010 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2010 00:46:29 -0500 Subject: Xyplex 1600 config software Message-ID: I am getting deep into the mysterious config of this terminal server, googling and banging the desk, and I find out that there is a Windows (or possibly others OSes?) GUI config tool out there somewhere for it, know as "Focalpoint" (or "Focal Point.") Anyone know if it's available any more? Also, anyone expert in the configuration of this beast and wouldn't mind some n00b questions via direct email, I'd be much obliged to hear from you. -- jht From pontus at Update.UU.SE Wed Aug 4 01:18:22 2010 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2010 08:18:22 +0200 Subject: Xyplex 1600 config software In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20100804061822.GA25694@Update.UU.SE> On Wed, Aug 04, 2010 at 12:46:29AM -0500, Jason T wrote: > I am getting deep into the mysterious config of this terminal server, > googling and banging the desk, and I find out that there is a Windows > (or possibly others OSes?) GUI config tool out there somewhere for it, > know as "Focalpoint" (or "Focal Point.") Anyone know if it's > available any more? > > Also, anyone expert in the configuration of this beast and wouldn't > mind some n00b questions via direct email, I'd be much obliged to hear > from you. > > -- > jht I have one as well, have not actually used it. You have obviously found this: http://www.gno.org/~gdr/xyplex/ /P From silent700 at gmail.com Wed Aug 4 01:40:39 2010 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2010 01:40:39 -0500 Subject: Xyplex 1600 config software In-Reply-To: <20100804061822.GA25694@Update.UU.SE> References: <20100804061822.GA25694@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: On Wed, Aug 4, 2010 at 1:18 AM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > I have one as well, have not actually used it. > > You have obviously found this: http://www.gno.org/~gdr/xyplex/ Yes - that has helped me greatly up to this point. Aside from a few tips and tricks, not a whole lot else out there. From rodsmallwood at btconnect.com Wed Aug 4 02:44:07 2010 From: rodsmallwood at btconnect.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2010 08:44:07 +0100 Subject: Pronouncing acronyms (was Re: DEC acronyms) In-Reply-To: References: from "RodSmallwood" at Aug 3, 10 05:34:19 am Message-ID: Hi Yes I probably could trace the circuit out. But it's always worth asking as you never know who's got what out there. Regards ? Rod Smallwood ? ? -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tony Duell Sent: 03 August 2010 20:31 To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Pronouncing acronyms (was Re: DEC acronyms) > > > 1. I once nearly took a job with them > 2. I thought they were called Ball as opposed to Balls. You are probslby right... > 3. I have several of the Ball VT100 boards referred to but lack a = > circuit > diagram to fix them. It would be a Ball diagram as opposed to a DEC one. > > 4. No, the circuit is not in any of the DEC VT100 manuals. Hang on a second...I know from your positings here that you are clueful.... And the VT100 video board -- any version -- is pretty simple. So why not trace out the scheamtic. It wouldn't take more than an afternoon... I think all the versions of VT100 video board that I've seen use the same flyback transfoemr (separately mounted on the chssis) which is a great help. Figuring out the windings of the flyback is a pain, becuase they have such a low DC resistnace that the show as a dead short on most ohmmeter. Desodler any low-resistnace compoennts from the PCB (inductoctors, transfofmers, fuses, etc ) before you start, and then start tracing connections with an ohmmeter. You amy find much fo the ciruitry is similar to one of the boards in the manual, which is a help. If I can mange to do machines with a couple of hundred ICs, then I am sure yoy can manage the VT100 video board... -tony From quapla at xs4all.nl Wed Aug 4 03:17:47 2010 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (E. Groenenberg) Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2010 10:17:47 +0200 Subject: Looking for a RK05F faceplate Message-ID: <3972c0fdf12bb61e57d81663c0df4605.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Hello All, I'm looking for an RK05F faceplate. Anyone able to help me with one? Thanks, Ed -- Dit is een HTML vrije email / This is an HTML free email. From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Wed Aug 4 05:42:49 2010 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2010 12:42:49 +0200 (CEST) Subject: DG 800/1200 questions In-Reply-To: <4C573E1A.30509@hachti.de> References: <42E490EB6EDD4A69A1AC3A8C992D566E@OSA.local> <4C55AEEB.6080404@bitsavers.org> <4C573E1A.30509@hachti.de> Message-ID: On Mon, 2 Aug 2010, Philipp Hachtmann wrote: > I for example have a DG Nova 2 and nearly *NO* information about it. All I > know is that the PSU and lights are OK. And that I can play around a bit. I > have no reliable documentation. And no clue how to hook up a TTY or load > software and all the like... > > That might sound a bit stupid... but... I got frustrated by the lack of > *everything* for my Nova. All I have for the machine is plenty of core > memory... > > Why is DG stuff not put onto Bitsavers? Hmm, what is wrong with the DG stuff that is actually on Bitsavers? I can find programming information, schematics of the Nova 2, programming guides, bootstrap loader listings etc. Or did I miss something you may have told me some time ago? Christian From ragooman at comcast.net Wed Aug 4 06:45:45 2010 From: ragooman at comcast.net (Dan Roganti) Date: Wed, 04 Aug 2010 07:45:45 -0400 Subject: Greetings fellow classiccmp'ers In-Reply-To: <2F51056DCBCE433F851B5D847E2320EC@OSA.local> References: <2F51056DCBCE433F851B5D847E2320EC@OSA.local> Message-ID: <4C5952E9.4050505@comcast.net> Jay West wrote: > > I'd like to update the classiccmp server (OS, apache, mysql, & mailman) soon. To aid in that transition, I will probably temporarily migrate all the sites & list to one of our clusters, load the classiccmp server from scratch, and then migrate everything back. I'll keep the list posted when I start down that path. > is there a RSS feed which I could use a reader to check cctalk mail ? I didn't notice one yet, but maybe I was looking in the wrong place. =Dan http://www.vintagecomputer.net/ragooman/ From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Wed Aug 4 08:47:53 2010 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 04 Aug 2010 08:47:53 -0500 Subject: Greetings fellow classiccmp'ers In-Reply-To: <2F51056DCBCE433F851B5D847E2320EC@OSA.local> References: <2F51056DCBCE433F851B5D847E2320EC@OSA.local> Message-ID: <4C596F89.30806@gmail.com> Jay West wrote: > After a long hiatus from the hobby, I'm making some attempts to get back > into it. Welcome back! I'm not reading the list as much as I used to, either - hit over 5k of unread messages yesterday. Collection (frustratingly) still halfway around the world; I expect I'll get back into the list more once I do get things moved here... cheers Jules From legalize at xmission.com Wed Aug 4 08:46:38 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 04 Aug 2010 07:46:38 -0600 Subject: Mispronouncing acronyms In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 03 Aug 2010 22:10:55 -0500. <4C58DA3F.3060706@oldskool.org> Message-ID: In article <4C58DA3F.3060706 at oldskool.org>, Jim Leonard writes: > On 8/2/2010 3:35 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > Does no one remember Veetock? (VTOC) > > I do, and occasionally still use it. > > My #1 pet peeve is GIF. I've always pronounced the g as in graphics, > because that's what it stands for. When I hear people pronounce it as > "jif" like the peanut butter, it raises my hackles. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From cclist at sydex.com Wed Aug 4 10:21:11 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 04 Aug 2010 08:21:11 -0700 Subject: Electronic Design article on CRTs Message-ID: <4C5922F7.9843.855954@cclist.sydex.com> Mentions the Tek 4051 among other things: http://electronicdesign.com/article/analog-and-mixed- signal/farewell_crts.aspx?nl=1 --Chuck From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Aug 4 10:57:19 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2010 11:57:19 -0400 Subject: Aug 3 1977 The TRS-80 was launched. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 8/3/10, Murray McCullough wrote: > I remember the days after quite well. Being from Canada it wasn't > available here right away. I went to Rochester, N.Y. to see it at a > computer store. > Boy, did this computer geeks eyes light up! I did eventually get one > that summer. I grew up a block away from Ohio State University which happened to have two Radio Shacks in proximity - one 4 blocks from my house, one a bit over a mile away on the same street. When the TRS-80 came out, I used to alternate between the Radio Shacks, pecking away for as long as they'd let me. We never did get a TRS-80 (we went with a 32K PET instead, which I still have), but I did get just the TRS-80 manual (which I also still have). I read that book several times over during our summer holidays when visiting relatives out of state, itching to get back to a Radio Shack to try out what I'd just learned. Thinking back on the state of the state in 1977/1978, before we bought a machine, I had limited but no-cost access to the three dominant new consumer platforms - the Apple II at The Micro Center (long before they got large they were a local storefront a few miles from my house), the TRS-80 at Radio Shack, and the original chicklet-keyboard PET at the main library downtown. When it came time to buy a computer, the Apple II was clearly too expensive for us, leaving the choice down to a TRS-80 vs a PET. I think "features" like the expansion interface (and its notoriously bad edge connector) and the chunky graphics (with no rich character set to enhance quarter or sixth-cell blobs) were what pushed me to choose the PET over the TRS-80. Perhaps if the TRS-80 had been 80-col vs 64-col, that might have been enough to tip the balance the other way. Choosing between 40-col with PET "graphics" and 64-col with ASCII and fat blocks wasn't so difficult. I do have to wonder where my early wanderings might have gone if I'd learned Z-80 machine code before 6502 machine code and what might have been my second machine (the progression that happened was PET->VIC-20->C-64->Amiga) -ethan From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 4 12:38:58 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2010 18:38:58 +0100 (BST) Subject: scammed an HP 98788A b & w monitor In-Reply-To: from "Tony Duell" at Aug 3, 10 06:49:19 pm Message-ID: > > > > > not totally sure of it's overall health, but it kind of works thus far. > > > > apparently was used on an HP-UX w/s @ AT & T (so says the sticker). > > > > an unusual bugger. Unique amongst my jumbo monitors. > > > > Now only need the HP-UX station to go along w/it... > > If you've not already looked thrre, you might find some information, such > as which machines it was used with, on http://www.hpmuseum.net/ I;ve now checkedm and there is something, namely a CE manual for this monitor. It's not very techncial, but it's probably worth a look. It's listed under the HP98786 monitor (which seems to be similar, with a different CRT size), under the Category Accessories for the HP900/300 machines. Actually, I find the eaiset way to find things on that site is to follow the 'docuemtnation' link from the homepage and look down the complete list of manuals... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 4 13:00:08 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2010 19:00:08 +0100 (BST) Subject: Mispronouncing acronyms In-Reply-To: <20100804011120.GV8300@n0jcf.net> from "Chris Elmquist" at Aug 3, 10 08:11:20 pm Message-ID: > > > Are those little diodes that emit light called L-E-Ds or are they leads? > You know, like you put in a mechanical pencil? The plural of Pb... > > A single one is a led-- like what you did when you took the horse > to water. I always say 'Ell Eee Dee' and 'Ell Eee Dees'. Never (or perhaps very rarely) 'Led' But as somebody once remarked 'You can take a horse to water, but a self-illuminating display must be LED' -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 4 12:54:22 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2010 18:54:22 +0100 (BST) Subject: retr0brite not so right? In-Reply-To: <4C588069.7050708@philpem.me.uk> from "Philip Pemberton" at Aug 3, 10 09:47:37 pm Message-ID: > > On 02/08/10 19:36, Tony Duell wrote: > > Even if I had to spend it on classic computers, the Apple 1 would not be > > high up the list :-). > > Agreed. As I've said, I'd rather like a SYM-1, KIM-1 or AIM-65. But > given that I've talked to a couple of people who said "yeah, I've got > loads of those in a warehouse, you can have one" and then dropped off > the face of the earth... I'm not hopeful. Als I know the feeling. I've missed out on 3 HP1000s and an Acorn A680 due to similar occurances. Oh well, life goes on... > > Actually at this point I'd settle for getting my Jupiter Ace motherboard > back from Lee Davison. Again, chance close to nil. Even getting a bare > Ace PCB or a broken Ace to fix would be nice... I'd build up the bare Alas I only have one Ace, and I am keeping it :-). > PCB on the grounds that: > - It'll be a fun evening's work Well, if you like fitting 1k resisotrs... In case you don;t know, the Ace has a vile 'myltiplexer' circuit consisting of a totem pole TTL output (say from a counter) warkened by having a 1k resistor in series contending with a 3-state output (say on an address buffer). That's how it allows both the video counter chain and the CPU to access video RAM. The Ace claimed ot hgave 3K of RAM. While there are, indeed, 6 off 2114s onthe PCB,it's 1K of program/data RAM, 1K of video RAM, and 1K of character generator (there is no character generator ROM, the character generator RAM is loaded from the system ROM at power-up). Calling that a 3L machine is somewhat dishonest... > - I know other people have bare PCBs and that they're not "one-off" > rare (AIUI a box of them was sold off when Jupiter Cantab went bust) As I understood it, the stuff all went to a company called 'Boldfield Limited Computing',sho then sold it on (including complete, working Aces, that's where mine came from). A bit later, the remains were sold off at low prices. I sitll have a few games tapes somewhere. What I don't have is a bare PCB... > - As a bare board, it's as useful and as entertaining as a brick. > Build it up and it becomes a whole lot more interesting. Err, of course. What else would you do with a bare Ace PCB? > > > Err, the Apple 1 is a single-board machine :-) > > Yes, but not the sort of machine I was thinking of (a "microcomputer > trainer" type thing) I actually wonder what the real difference is... > > > Hmm, we will ahve to agree to disagree, I think. I regard the Apple ][ as > > one of the worst designs ever because it's such a minimal parts count > > (IMHO a few more chips would ahve made it a lot better). > > In some ways it is a completely evil design. Reverse engineering it is > diabolically hard, and I think some parts of the design must have been > conceived by a madman or a masochist. But getting the parts count down > that far? Cool. No, I disagree. I have never been a great lover of minimal parts count designs. For me, the more hardware. the merrier :-) > > > But I feel the > > BBC Micro is one of the best (if not _the_ best) 8 bitters. A very > > elegant design... > > The BBC is a lovely design. From an expandability point of view alone > it's something that -- even today -- is worth keeping on or near an > electronics workbench with a User-Port-to-breadboard cable. And if you > need a few more I/Os, there's always the 1MHz Bus. Why do you think I have an ACW (== BBC B+ with 32016 coprocesosr, colour monitor, hard and floppy drives, all in one box) to hand? > > They make terrific logic pattern generators, the BASIC has full floating > point and a good range of math operators (I don't have a full list to > hand, but IIRC it at least has sine, cosine and tangent, and possible > arc-tangent as well) and the machine itself is built like a Chieftain ATN is certainly there... I would have to grab the (excellent) user guide to look for all the others. But for what I do, the built-in assembler is more useufl, actually... > tank. Plus if something goes wrong, it's all LSTTL or easily obtainable > parts (aside from a ULA or two and possibly the SAA5050). Indeed... And schematics are trivial to get. It's a very nice machine to work on... > > Well, as long as you had a supply of spare 100nF X2 capacitors for the > power supply filter. Those go pop at an alarming rate, and have a rotten > tendency of caking the innards of the machine with brown ichor when they do. Ah, the anitsocial capacitor problem. I've never seen it in a Beeb (but then the Beeb I use most is the ACW whiohc has a totaly different PSU), but I've seen it often enough in other machines. I rememebr when I was sorting out myu HP981, I left the monitor on and poweed down the CPU box to correct something. A few minotues later (by chance, as it turned out), the monitor went bang and emitted magic smoke. My instnat thought was a problem in the horizontal output stage. I powered down at once and removed the casing (non-trivial on that monitor...) and was relieved to find the only fault was that one of the filter capacitors had exploded (metalised foil hanging out of the side). Of course I replaced the lot... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 4 13:07:01 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2010 19:07:01 +0100 (BST) Subject: Maker Faire review In-Reply-To: <201008040253.o742rO0d047381@billY.EZWIND.NET> from "John Foust" at Aug 3, 10 09:53:19 pm Message-ID: > > > I attended the Detroit Maker Faire this past weekend. Quite fun! Sounds excellent to me. Anything which encourages peope to grab a screwdriver and start tinkering can only be a Good Thing! -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 4 13:12:38 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2010 19:12:38 +0100 (BST) Subject: Pronouncing acronyms (was Re: DEC acronyms) In-Reply-To: from "Rod Smallwood" at Aug 4, 10 08:44:07 am Message-ID: > > Hi=20 > Yes I probably could trace the circuit out.=20 I am sure you could. > But it's always worth asking as you never know who's got what out there. True enough.. But actually, I suspect in the time it's taken to send the messages, you could have made a good start on a schematic... It doens't apply here, but I've come to the point where it's quicker for me to trace out a scheamtic than to do battle with teh so-called 'customer suppoer' for many procducts. Same with warrenties, actually, Much of the time I find it quicker and less hassle to fix the darn thing myself than to jump through hoops to get a free repair... -tony From jfoust at threedee.com Wed Aug 4 13:47:15 2010 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Wed, 04 Aug 2010 13:47:15 -0500 Subject: Maker Faire review In-Reply-To: References: <201008040253.o742rO0d047381@billY.EZWIND.NET> Message-ID: <201008041847.o74IlheR091691@billY.EZWIND.NET> At 01:07 PM 8/4/2010, Tony Duell wrote: >> >> I attended the Detroit Maker Faire this past weekend. Quite fun! > >Sounds excellent to me. Anything which encourages peope to grab a >screwdriver and start tinkering can only be a Good Thing! Don't worry, Tony, I heard your voice there. You were walking around noticing that some items can't be truly repaired, that back in your day computers had discrete replaceable components and a schematic was included, and that they weren't using a proper screwdriver, and that you weren't rich enough to afford cheap tools. :-) In other words, you would've loved it! - John From keithvz at verizon.net Wed Aug 4 14:02:47 2010 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith M) Date: Wed, 04 Aug 2010 15:02:47 -0400 Subject: Maker Faire review In-Reply-To: <201008040253.o742rO0d047381@billY.EZWIND.NET> References: <201008040253.o742rO0d047381@billY.EZWIND.NET> Message-ID: <4C59B957.1090509@verizon.net> On 8/3/2010 10:53 PM, John Foust wrote: > > I attended the Detroit Maker Faire this past weekend. Quite fun! > Overall, I thought it was quite inspirational. John, Thanks for posting the review. I'm in Pittsburgh which isn't too far from Detroit. I got back not long ago from HOPE in NYC and I too found it inspirational. I see people producing great things. And having a high level mastery of technical understanding, skills, etc. It really is a motivator for me within my own projects. I feel empowered to make my projects better. Thanks. Keith From keithvz at verizon.net Wed Aug 4 14:23:00 2010 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith M) Date: Wed, 04 Aug 2010 15:23:00 -0400 Subject: Mispronouncing acronyms In-Reply-To: <4C577605.2070700@atarimuseum.com> References: <20100802204619.C48C6A5826C@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <4C577605.2070700@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <4C59BE14.7010700@verizon.net> On 8/2/2010 9:51 PM, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > or worse - an Atari ST vs Amiga flame war ;-) haha. I remember this one quite well. :) Never participated myself, of course. :) Keith From binarydinosaurs at gmail.com Wed Aug 4 15:59:46 2010 From: binarydinosaurs at gmail.com (Adrian Graham) Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2010 21:59:46 +0100 Subject: Mispronouncing acronyms In-Reply-To: References: <20100803105747.1C10E1E0226@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: On 3 August 2010 21:20, Rich Alderson wrote: > > The cop car terminals looked pretty slick for 1980. Almost like mobile > PLATO > > terminals with their orange plasma display. Maybe it was an actual > > Motorola product? Of course Motorola and PLATO were also suburban > > Chicago/Illinois tie-ins :-). And the mall that gets destroyed, I have > > been told, was (previous to being a mall) one of the Teletype factories > > in Skokie. > > Actually, it was a defunct, bankrupt shopping mall in a southwest suburb, > standing in for a non-existent shopping mall in the northwest suburb of > Park Ridge.[1] > > Dixie Square Mall in Harvey, Illinois: *http://tinyurl.com/34dhq65 (google maps) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dixie_Square_Mall * :) -- adrian/witchy Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest home computer collection? www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Wed Aug 4 19:06:49 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Thu, 05 Aug 2010 01:06:49 +0100 Subject: retr0brite not so right? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C5A0099.7070809@philpem.me.uk> On 04/08/10 18:54, Tony Duell wrote: > Als I know the feeling. I've missed out on 3 HP1000s and an Acorn A680 > due to similar occurances. Oh well, life goes on... A680... that's the RISC iX box, isn't it?? > Alas I only have one Ace, and I am keeping it :-). Adrian Graham (witchy) sent me some hi-res scans of the PCB ages ago. I've been meaning to make a PCB from them, but I need to look into ways to get a good B/W image of the track layout. Thresholding the image doesn't quite work... > Well, if you like fitting 1k resisotrs... In case you don;t know, the Ace > has a vile 'myltiplexer' circuit consisting of a totem pole TTL output > (say from a counter) warkened by having a 1k resistor in series > contending with a 3-state output (say on an address buffer). That's how > it allows both the video counter chain and the CPU to access video RAM. Ugh, nasty. > Err, of course. What else would you do with a bare Ace PCB? Some people (not me) would frame it and put it on the wall...... >> Yes, but not the sort of machine I was thinking of (a "microcomputer >> trainer" type thing) > > I actually wonder what the real difference is... A ROM monitor instead of BASIC, and an edge-connector with all the bus lines on it :) Although the AIM65 bucks that trend; AIUI it has a built in ROM BASIC *and* the monitor, and the Multitech Micro-Professor certainly had a BASIC ROM available. > No, I disagree. I have never been a great lover of minimal parts count > designs. For me, the more hardware. the merrier :-) There's a breaking point though. When I'm programming PLDs, I generally don't give a hoot how big the logic equation set becomes (as long as it fits into the PLD). If I'm wiring up hardware, the "must fit on a Roth Elektronik Eurocard-size padboard" rule applies. I try to avoid straddling projects across multiple pad-boards; my 6502 card can boot standalone, but it's not much use without the UART or some form of hex keyboard and display (TIL311 to the rescue!). [BBC micro] > ATN is certainly there... I would have to grab the (excellent) user guide > to look for all the others. But for what I do, the built-in assembler is > more useufl, actually... Another point I missed :) > Indeed... And schematics are trivial to get. It's a very nice machine to > work on... "Google is your friend" :) > Ah, the anitsocial capacitor problem. I've never seen it in a Beeb (but > then the Beeb I use most is the ACW whiohc has a totaly different PSU), I had it in my Master 128 (it filled the room with smoke) and in a Solartron 7150Plus 6-digit bench DMM. The filter module in the 7150 actually caught fire (!) and I called the company and asked if they knew why it might do that, and if they had any distributors who'd sell 1-offs (RS wanted ?49 and in any case were downright rude last time I tried to place an order with them). Their response: "We'll send you another filter module." The 7150+ is still in service -- I've got a full service manual, but $DEITY help me if the Hitachi 68B03 mask-ROM micro on the analog board jacks it. Mask ROM and it's soldered to the board. Ewwww. If it wasn't soldered down I'd stick it in a breadboard and dump its contents to disc... (it has a 'test mode' which maps an external EPROM into the reset vector, and moves the internal ROM higher up in the memory map) > the monitor went bang and emitted magic smoke. My instnat thought was a > problem in the horizontal output stage. I powered down at once and > removed the casing (non-trivial on that monitor...) and was relieved to > find the only fault was that one of the filter capacitors had exploded > (metalised foil hanging out of the side). Of course I replaced the lot... One of the few occasions when shotgun replacement is justified. The other one is when you've got a machine on the bench which is showing symptoms of Capacitor Plague. In that case I'd sketch out part locations (and locations/values of nearby parts), remove the old parts, and give the surrounding area a good soak in flux remover (or IPA) and a decent scrub. Maybe a trip in the dishwasher if it was particularly mucky... Then the new parts go in, and any track breaks are repaired. At least the hot-air gun makes it (reasonably) easy to remove the SMDs. A pre-heater would make it even easier, but unfortunately the budget won't stretch that far at the moment... -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From schoedel at kw.igs.net Wed Aug 4 19:32:00 2010 From: schoedel at kw.igs.net (Kevin Schoedel) Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2010 20:32:00 -0400 Subject: DG 800/1200 questions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 7:21 pm +0100 2010/08/02, Tony Duell wrote: >> > But alas I have no idea where you'd get the casssettes now. >> These units are in mint shape, was hoping they wouldn't be paperweights :\ > >How many tapes do you need? It's possible there are a few around in >people's junk boxes, if you need <10 or so... If there's reason to believe they'd work, I have around a hundred TU60 cassettes still sealed in their original packaging. -- Kevin Schoedel VA3TCS From halarewich at gmail.com Wed Aug 4 19:36:29 2010 From: halarewich at gmail.com (Chris Halarewich) Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2010 17:36:29 -0700 Subject: test to see if messages ares are being posed or seen Message-ID: hello all Nerver mind the waste of bandwidth just trying to see if gmails sending my messages right i sent one a couple days ago with no responses so far and when u post a single messes and if no one respondes gmail does not post it on your main inbox chris From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 4 17:48:44 2010 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2010 15:48:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: To scrap or not to scrap? In-Reply-To: <4C58CFC9.5040907@hachti.de> Message-ID: <400782.58728.qm@web65511.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> > * I came across a box of Token Ring and Arcnet stuff. > Mostly NICs. don't scrap > * IBM PC AT and around don't scrap that. and around what? > * Sun Ultra 1 (or 5?) pizza boxes no in any event. U5s are kinda sorta desirable as modern machines. You can always give them to some kid or whatever (who wants to learn a *real* yooniks > * 5.25" and 8" disk floppy drives and HDDs definitely don't scrap > * Philips P4500 computer (or 5400?) don't know what that is. you coulda told us. And you really should make up your mind here. > Is there any interest in that kind of stuff? Might that be > of sufficient quality (quantity isn't the problem) for a > dedicated flea market event? > > Opinions very welcome. And btw I'm talking about stuff in > Northern Germany... you'd know the flea markets in northern Germany better then us (who don't live there. I for 1 (not for 2, 3, or 4 LOL LOL LOL) have spent about 2 hours in an airport in Germany once. There weren't any flea markets going on. I'm sure someone could make use of the stuff. Some of it could fetch you a few bucks, nothing wrong w/that if that's what you choose to do. From nico at farumdata.dk Thu Aug 5 01:34:31 2010 From: nico at farumdata.dk (Nico de Jong) Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2010 08:34:31 +0200 Subject: To scrap or not to scrap? References: <400782.58728.qm@web65511.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: From: "Chris M" > >> * Philips P4500 computer (or 5400?) > > don't know what that is. you coulda told us. And you really should make up > your mind here. > The Philips P4500 is a mini-mainframe. AFAIR it supported Condtrol Data disks and Pertec tape drives. It came with COBOL. A 5400 doesnt ring a bell, but the 5xxx series was Word Processing. I remember the 5002, a horrible system with hard sectored 5.25" floppies, and the 5020, was (IIRC) was a relabelled Canadian product (MICOM)? Nico (ex Philips PTS 6000) From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Thu Aug 5 02:40:12 2010 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2010 09:40:12 +0200 Subject: OT? Tek 4014 emulator (tying Xterm to ttyS0) In-Reply-To: <4C571779.2030508@philpem.me.uk> References: <4C571779.2030508@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <20100805094012.be6a1165.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Mon, 02 Aug 2010 20:07:37 +0100 Philip Pemberton wrote: > I've been told that tip(1) on BSD will do what I want, I just > can't find anything similar on Linux... cu(1) is similar. tip(1) and cu(1) come with UUCP. So you may get lucky by installing some uucp package such as e.g. Taylor UUCP. -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Thu Aug 5 04:04:47 2010 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2010 11:04:47 +0200 (CEST) Subject: To scrap or not to scrap? In-Reply-To: <400782.58728.qm@web65511.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> References: <400782.58728.qm@web65511.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 4 Aug 2010, Chris M wrote: >> * I came across a box of Token Ring and Arcnet stuff. >> Mostly NICs. > > don't scrap Well, usually nobody wants that, too common and no demand. >> * IBM PC AT and around > > don't scrap that. and around what? If they are original IBM systems, then I agree. If they are clones, I usually salvage the drives, perhaps the I/O cards if they are exotic. Otherwise I'd junk them, you'll drown in those systems otherwise. >> * Sun Ultra 1 (or 5?) pizza boxes > > no in any event. U5s are kinda sorta desirable as modern machines. You > can always give them to some kid or whatever (who wants to learn a > *real* yooniks Eh, I even have some Ultra60, Ultra80 and Ultra10 that nobody wants. And I definitely don't want an Ultra1 for playing (we still have some in service here, but they're not really fun). I'd prefer the older sun[1-3] and sun4/sun4m. Small UltraSparc systems are really dirt common. You can be happy if someone takes one for free. Don't expect any money. >> * 5.25" and 8" disk floppy drives and HDDs > > definitely don't scrap Agree. >> * Philips P4500 computer (or 5400?) > > don't know what that is. you coulda told us. And you really should make > up your mind here. This is from the 1987 edition of Computer Review: "Introduced in 1980, the Philips P4500 is an interactive business computer system designed for small business distributed-processing networks. The P4500 employs 'team processor' architecture, which delegates functions usually performed by the CPU to dedicated special-purpose processors. ANSI COBOL is the major programming language under the DINOS 4000 operating system." Then further on: "Word size: 16 bits, Memory: 256 to 1024kB MOS, Memory Cycle Time: 563ns [...] Magnetic Tape: P3540: 1600bpi, 37ips Line Printer: P2910/62/65:100-600lpm Serial Printer: P2931:100cps;P2934:300cps [...] System Software: Real Time Monitor, Batch Monitor, Data Base Sys, Operating System: DINOS 4000 [...] Sold primarily in Western Europe" I'd be curious what the CPU is. Christian From ama at ugr.es Thu Aug 5 06:18:08 2010 From: ama at ugr.es (Angel Martin Alganza) Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2010 13:18:08 +0200 Subject: To scrap or not to scrap? In-Reply-To: References: <400782.58728.qm@web65511.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20100805111808.GA14077@darwin.ugr.es> Hello, On Thu, Aug 05, 2010 at 11:04:47AM +0200, Christian Corti wrote: > >>* Sun Ultra 1 (or 5?) pizza boxes > > > >no in any event. U5s are kinda sorta desirable as modern machines. You > >can always give them to some kid or whatever (who wants to learn a > >*real* yooniks > > Eh, I even have some Ultra60, Ultra80 and Ultra10 that nobody wants. And I > definitely don't want an Ultra1 for playing (we still have some in service I'd love to have an Ultra 5, or any of those you mentioned for that matter. My main workstation is an Ultra 1 running Debian GNU/Linux. Cheers, ?ngel From jdr_use at bluewin.ch Thu Aug 5 12:36:17 2010 From: jdr_use at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen) Date: Thu, 05 Aug 2010 19:36:17 +0200 Subject: To scrap or not to scrap? In-Reply-To: <4C58CFC9.5040907@hachti.de> References: <4C58CFC9.5040907@hachti.de> Message-ID: <4C5AF691.9020908@bluewin.ch> My recommandations, in knowledge of Philipp's situation : > * I came across a box of Token Ring and Arcnet stuff. Mostly NICs. Scrap > * IBM PC AT and around Original IBM AT -> Sell, others scrap. > * Sun Ultra 1 (or 5?) pizza boxes scrap > * 5.25" and 8" disk floppy drives and HDDs Good MFM drives & 8 " floppies are getting somewhat thin on the ground, 5": scrap > * Philips P4500 computer (or 5400?) Will sell on Ebay for a token amount. > > Is there any interest in that kind of stuff? Might that be of > sufficient quality (quantity isn't the problem) for a dedicated flea > market event? In short : good, decent size MFM drives might be worth your time, the rest rather not. Jos From pontus at Update.UU.SE Thu Aug 5 13:38:51 2010 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2010 20:38:51 +0200 Subject: PDP-11/44 mystery card Message-ID: <20100805183851.GA12620@Update.UU.SE> Hi I've acquired two PDP-11/44 and have just now gone throught the list of cards in the cpu-boxes and the spares. Here is a list: http://www.update.uu.se/~pontus/slask/11-44-kort.txt Nothing special, I've used the field guide to identify most cards. I've only marked one card of each kind. There is two cards connected with ribbon cables that I can't identify. They are made by Data Management Labs in San Jose and are labled DML 750 Board A and Board B. There are some numbers as well (in no particular order) 980-8043 710-1921-001 There are some bitslice chips and a whole bunch of roms. Anything that rings a bell with anyone? Also I wonder what the "M7251 KG11-A U Network interface XOR and CRC block check option" "M3110 DRCSA U Protocol assist #1 w/special character check and CRC (DEC/DLC/DRCSA)" "M3111 DRCSA U Protocol assist #2 w/special character check and CRC (DEC/DLC/DRCSA)" are used for? Cheers, Pontus From legalize at xmission.com Thu Aug 5 14:06:45 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 05 Aug 2010 13:06:45 -0600 Subject: PDP-11/44 mystery card In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 05 Aug 2010 20:38:51 +0200. <20100805183851.GA12620@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: In article <20100805183851.GA12620 at Update.UU.SE>, Pontus Pihlgren writes: > There are some bitslice chips and a whole bunch of roms. Anything that > rings a bell with anyone? Pictures? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Thu Aug 5 14:26:14 2010 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2010 21:26:14 +0200 Subject: PDP-11/44 mystery card In-Reply-To: <20100805183851.GA12620@Update.UU.SE> References: <20100805183851.GA12620@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: Hi Pontus, congrats on this acquisition. > I've acquired two PDP-11/44 and have just now gone throught the list of > cards in the cpu-boxes and the spares. Here is a list: > > http://www.update.uu.se/~pontus/slask/11-44-kort.txt I had a quick look at the list. When looking at Expansionsl?da 2 (l?s) I frowned seeing the 11/24 CPU module there. Now, I don't now if you wrote them down in the order the modules are in the slots (like the first 11/44 CPU), but I think you better check all positions before applying power! Now, my Swedish is nill, but I think "l?s" means something like "loose" , "just a bunch of modules" put together in the expansion box, where the expansion box functions as a storage drawer. I use BA11-K boxes too as storage boxes ... never apply power! > There is two cards connected with ribbon cables that I can't identify. Sorry, can't be of much help here. > Also I wonder what the > "M7251 KG11-A U Network interface XOR and CRC block check option" > "M3110 DRCSA U Protocol assist #1 w/special character check and > CRC (DEC/DLC/DRCSA)" > "M3111 DRCSA U Protocol assist #2 w/special character check and > CRC (DEC/DLC/DRCSA)" > are used for? AFAIK, the KG11-A "belongs" to serial comm cards and adds error checking on the data stream. My guess is that the M3110/3111 are modules that "seek" for a special character and generate a CRC for error checking purposes ... just a guess. - Henk. From neal.filla at delta.com Thu Aug 5 12:45:42 2010 From: neal.filla at delta.com (Filla, Neal M) Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2010 12:45:42 -0500 Subject: Intel RMX 86/330 system & 380 startup questions Message-ID: <57675FF02827504B9B8FA970FEE75607FF2C0BA3@smspbdjdlmb532.delta.rl.delta.com> Looking for a intel 310 computer. Know of any ??? to run rmx86. Neal Filla PH - (612) 726-8612 Fax - (612) 726-0163 neal.filla at Delta.com From pontus at Update.UU.SE Thu Aug 5 15:03:46 2010 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2010 22:03:46 +0200 Subject: PDP-11/44 mystery card In-Reply-To: References: <20100805183851.GA12620@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <20100805200346.GA23387@Update.UU.SE> On Thu, Aug 05, 2010 at 01:06:45PM -0600, Richard wrote: > > In article <20100805183851.GA12620 at Update.UU.SE>, > Pontus Pihlgren writes: > > > There are some bitslice chips and a whole bunch of roms. Anything that > > rings a bell with anyone? > > Pictures? Hmm, should have taken some with my cellphone, I can snap some this weekend perhaps. From pontus at Update.UU.SE Thu Aug 5 15:06:13 2010 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2010 22:06:13 +0200 Subject: PDP-11/44 mystery card In-Reply-To: References: <20100805183851.GA12620@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <20100805200613.GB23387@Update.UU.SE> > Hi Pontus, > > congrats on this acquisition. Thank you! > I had a quick look at the list. > When looking at Expansionsl?da 2 (l?s) I frowned seeing the 11/24 > CPU module there. Now, I don't now if you wrote them down in the > order the modules are in the slots (like the first 11/44 CPU), but I > think you better check all positions before applying power! > Now, my Swedish is nill, but I think "l?s" means something like > "loose" , "just a bunch of modules" put together in the expansion > box, where the expansion box functions as a storage drawer. > I use BA11-K boxes too as storage boxes ... never apply power! You are right, l?s is loose, the box doesn't even have a power supply. I was to surprised to find a 11/24 there. The box has a card listing from an 11/24 on it, but the rest of the cards probably come from the 11/44. > >There is two cards connected with ribbon cables that I can't identify. > > Sorry, can't be of much help here. > > >Also I wonder what the > >"M7251 KG11-A U Network interface XOR and CRC block check option" > >"M3110 DRCSA U Protocol assist #1 w/special character > >check and CRC (DEC/DLC/DRCSA)" > >"M3111 DRCSA U Protocol assist #2 w/special character > >check and CRC (DEC/DLC/DRCSA)" > >are used for? > > AFAIK, the KG11-A "belongs" to serial comm cards and adds > error checking on the data stream. My guess is that the M3110/3111 are > modules that "seek" for a special character and generate a CRC for > error checking purposes ... just a guess. > I see, thank you. /P From hachti at hachti.de Thu Aug 5 15:26:58 2010 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Thu, 05 Aug 2010 22:26:58 +0200 Subject: To scrap or not to scrap? In-Reply-To: References: <400782.58728.qm@web65511.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4C5B1E92.1040909@hachti.de> Hi, >>> * Philips P4500 computer (or 5400?) >> >> don't know what that is. you coulda told us. And you really should >> make up your mind here. >> > The Philips P4500 is a mini-mainframe. AFAIR it supported Condtrol Data > disks and Pertec tape drives. > It came with COBOL. I looked again. It is a 4500. With a terminal. There's a CDC SMD 14" hard disk installed. The drive has the same brown Philips design as the rest. Drive is calles "Mini module drive". I powered up the drive without the computer connected. After finding the transport lock it spun up, loaded heads, and got ready. I have no idea about the overall condition of the system. If nobody speaks for the machine, it will be scrapped in the next weeks. The disk drive will be dismantled and put onto display (I don't have any influence here - could only save the whole thing). Regards, Philipp -- http://www.hachti.de From hachti at hachti.de Thu Aug 5 15:31:13 2010 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Thu, 05 Aug 2010 22:31:13 +0200 Subject: To scrap or not to scrap? In-Reply-To: References: <400782.58728.qm@web65511.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4C5B1F91.206@hachti.de> Hehe, On 05.08.2010 11:04, Christian Corti wrote: > On Wed, 4 Aug 2010, Chris M wrote: >>> * I came across a box of Token Ring and Arcnet stuff. >>> Mostly NICs. >> >> don't scrap > > Well, usually nobody wants that, too common and no demand. Ok, that was a local voice - I'll scrap all the network stuff. >>> * IBM PC AT and around >> >> don't scrap that. and around what? > > If they are original IBM systems, then I agree. If they are clones, I > usually salvage the drives, perhaps the I/O cards if they are exotic. > Otherwise I'd junk them, you'll drown in those systems otherwise. IBM PC XT, AT, AT 386, PS/2, (probably PS/1?) and such machines. With keyboards and some monitors. >>> * Sun Ultra 1 (or 5?) pizza boxes >> >> no in any event. U5s are kinda sorta desirable as modern machines. You >> can always give them to some kid or whatever (who wants to learn a >> *real* yooniks > > Eh, I even have some Ultra60, Ultra80 and Ultra10 that nobody wants. And > I definitely don't want an Ultra1 for playing (we still have some in > service here, but they're not really fun). I'd prefer the older sun[1-3] > and sun4/sun4m. Small UltraSparc systems are really dirt common. You can > be happy if someone takes one for free. Don't expect any money. I'll gladly put them into the scrap container. And remember that I'm interested in Ultra 80 and a 450Mhz Ultra 60.... >>> * 5.25" and 8" disk floppy drives and HDDs >> >> definitely don't scrap > > Agree. Will keep those that don't smell too badly (there's a MASSIV problem with living and - more recent - dead rats...). >>> * Philips P4500 computer (or 5400?) >> >> don't know what that is. you coulda told us. And you really should >> make up your mind here. > > This is from the 1987 edition of Computer Review: > "Introduced in 1980, the Philips P4500 is an interactive business > computer system designed for small business distributed-processing > networks. The P4500 employs 'team processor' architecture, which > delegates functions usually performed by the CPU to dedicated > special-purpose processors. ANSI COBOL is the major programming language > under the DINOS 4000 operating system." > > Then further on: > "Word size: 16 bits, Memory: 256 to 1024kB MOS, Memory Cycle Time: 563ns > [...] > Magnetic Tape: P3540: 1600bpi, 37ips > Line Printer: P2910/62/65:100-600lpm > Serial Printer: P2931:100cps;P2934:300cps > [...] > System Software: Real Time Monitor, Batch Monitor, Data Base Sys, > Operating System: DINOS 4000 > [...] > Sold primarily in Western Europe" > > I'd be curious what the CPU is. Hm... Would be some work to find out. I didn't notice a microprocessor. - Philipp -- http://www.hachti.de From pontus at Update.UU.SE Thu Aug 5 15:44:03 2010 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2010 22:44:03 +0200 Subject: To scrap or not to scrap? In-Reply-To: <4C5B1F91.206@hachti.de> References: <400782.58728.qm@web65511.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <4C5B1F91.206@hachti.de> Message-ID: <20100805204403.GA27388@Update.UU.SE> On Thu, Aug 05, 2010 at 10:31:13PM +0200, Philipp Hachtmann wrote: > >If they are original IBM systems, then I agree. If they are clones, I > >usually salvage the drives, perhaps the I/O cards if they are exotic. > >Otherwise I'd junk them, you'll drown in those systems otherwise. > IBM PC XT, AT, AT 386, PS/2, (probably PS/1?) and such machines. With keyboards and some monitors. Announce them at the vintagecomputer forums if you care about saving them, some people there really want XT and AT machines. http://www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum/ /P From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Thu Aug 5 15:48:04 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Thu, 05 Aug 2010 21:48:04 +0100 Subject: Pronouncing acronyms (was Re: DEC acronyms) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C5B2384.4050309@philpem.me.uk> On 04/08/10 19:12, Tony Duell wrote: > It doens't apply here, but I've come to the point where it's quicker for > me to trace out a scheamtic than to do battle with teh so-called > 'customer suppoer' for many procducts. Same with warrenties, actually, > Much of the time I find it quicker and less hassle to fix the darn thing > myself than to jump through hoops to get a free repair... Don't get me started on customer disservice... A year or so ago I ordered some hardware and had it sent to work (the alternative was to take a week off; the distributor wouldn't give me a firm date for delivery, nor were they willing to let me send a courier down to pick it up). Fast forward to last week when said hardware breaks. Turns out it's got a "lifetime guarantee" handled through the distributor. So I called the distributor and ask for an RMA number, and for the replacement to be sent to my home address (which is the billing address on the original invoice, and also the current billing address they have on file). No other distributor has had a problem with this (it was over a year ago, people move, it's a common problem). Their response? "We can't guarantee that the replacement will be sent to the billing address. You'll need to contact the current occupants at the delivery address and have them forward it to you." "That'll be a little difficult. That's my previous employer's address, and they've moved since then. I'm not even sure the building's still there, the landlord was going to knock it down and rebuild it." "Well, that isn't my problem. I can't help you further, you'll have to negotiate with the current occupants of the building." [ After a bit of to-ing and fro-ing, I still can't get the CSR to understand the significance of 'the building is a pile of rubble, the courier will just send it back to you' -- if this happens they charge ?45 to whatever credit card they have on file as a "handling charge" ] "Sorry, I don't think we're getting anywhere here, may I speak to your supervisor" "No." "No?" "My supervisor won't take calls from customers. He's too busy." "Do you know when he might be available? Or can I at least have his name and office address so I might send a letter of complaint?" "The address is on our website. I can't give you his name." "OK... is there a department I can address this to?" "Complaints department." "Right, can I just take your name, for my records? Or maybe an employee ID number or something, just so I know who I've been talking to?" "I can't give you that information." "Despite the fact you started the call by giving me your name?" "I may have given you my name, but I'm not going to repeat it. I feel this conversation has gone on long enough, goodbye. *click*" This is the same company whose "resolution" for replacing a faulty PC motherboard was to send me someone else's faulty board, and call it "refurbished". Yes it was nice and clean, but the blown power FETs were a bit of a give-away... Yes, they're on my "naughty list"... though dealing with the fallout from the stuff I've bought from them in the past will be good entertainment for years to come. [ Is it just me or are computer vendors about as trustworthy as the average used car salesmen? Although in most cases the manufacturers aren't much better... Antec are great, Akasa are reasonable, ASUS are downright evil ] -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From cclist at sydex.com Thu Aug 5 15:57:14 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 05 Aug 2010 13:57:14 -0700 Subject: Pronouncing acronyms (was Re: DEC acronyms) In-Reply-To: <4C5B2384.4050309@philpem.me.uk> References: , <4C5B2384.4050309@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4C5AC33A.23908.1235C51@cclist.sydex.com> On 5 Aug 2010 at 21:48, Philip Pemberton wrote: > [ Is it just me or are computer vendors about as trustworthy as the > average used car salesmen? Although in most cases the manufacturers > aren't much better... Antec are great, Akasa are reasonable, ASUS are > downright evil ] I understand that the good folks in Shenzhen will repair almost anything. Unfortunately, the carfare is a bit expensive. --Chuck From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Thu Aug 5 16:23:51 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Thu, 05 Aug 2010 22:23:51 +0100 Subject: Pronouncing acronyms (was Re: DEC acronyms) In-Reply-To: <4C5AC33A.23908.1235C51@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4C5B2384.4050309@philpem.me.uk> <4C5AC33A.23908.1235C51@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4C5B2BE7.4030202@philpem.me.uk> On 05/08/10 21:57, Chuck Guzis wrote: > I understand that the good folks in Shenzhen will repair almost > anything. Unfortunately, the carfare is a bit expensive. Yes, and apparently you can get just about any electronic component you could want from Shenzhen (or Akihabara for that matter). What narks me off is when companies demand that you pay for an "RMA voucher" -- which is what ASUS do over here. ?50 for the voucher, and you pay the cost of shipping the faulty $DEVICE to Taipei. Bet it really cuts down on the number of RMAs. The annoying part is that ASUS USA will sell spare parts for their laptops (even stuff like motherboards) so you can basically do DIY fixes. ASUS Europe don't even have a phone number (IIRC). Seagate are almost as bad. "Send us the drive, we'll pay return post, but it has to be sent in one of our RMA-Approved Boxes complete with branding".... last time I checked, one of those boxes was ?25 plus VAT and P&P. This and the "F-you" I got when my Barracuda 7200.11 packed in from a firmware issue basically means they're not going to be seeing any of my $$$ for a VERY LONG time. I did fix the drive, though: with a serial cable and a HOWTO I found in a Google search (I think it was on hddguru). -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From binarydinosaurs at gmail.com Thu Aug 5 16:40:18 2010 From: binarydinosaurs at gmail.com (Adrian Graham) Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2010 22:40:18 +0100 Subject: Pronouncing acronyms (was Re: DEC acronyms) In-Reply-To: <4C5B2BE7.4030202@philpem.me.uk> References: <4C5B2384.4050309@philpem.me.uk> <4C5AC33A.23908.1235C51@cclist.sydex.com> <4C5B2BE7.4030202@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: On 5 August 2010 22:23, Philip Pemberton wrote: > > The annoying part is that ASUS USA will sell spare parts for their laptops (even stuff like motherboards) so you can basically do DIY fixes. ASUS Europe don't even have a phone number (IIRC). http://uk.asus.com/ContentPage.aspx?Content_Type=bottom&Content_Id=85 or if you don't want to clicky: +44 (0) 870 1208 340 or 01442 202700 -- -- adrian/witchy Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest home? computer collection? www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Thu Aug 5 17:01:05 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2010 19:01:05 -0300 Subject: Pronouncing acronyms (was Re: DEC acronyms) References: <4C5B2384.4050309@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <056201cb34e9$eead7300$0600000a@portajara> [ Is it just me or are computer vendors about as trustworthy as the average used car salesmen? Although in most cases the manufacturers aren't much better... Antec are great, Akasa are reasonable, ASUS are downright evil ] Strangely, I had an excellent customer experience in Brazil (!!!), I got an intel motherboard some two years ago and had it exchanged in warranty TWO TIMES. Excellent service :) From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Thu Aug 5 17:37:00 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Thu, 05 Aug 2010 23:37:00 +0100 Subject: Pronouncing acronyms (was Re: DEC acronyms) In-Reply-To: References: <4C5B2384.4050309@philpem.me.uk> <4C5AC33A.23908.1235C51@cclist.sydex.com> <4C5B2BE7.4030202@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4C5B3D0C.80109@philpem.me.uk> On 05/08/10 22:40, Adrian Graham wrote: > http://uk.asus.com/ContentPage.aspx?Content_Type=bottom&Content_Id=85 > > or if you don't want to clicky: +44 (0) 870 1208 340 or 01442 202700 That's new. Last time I checked they didn't even have that... Seems they've revamped the "e-shop" and actually added a link to it, but it's as broken as ever: Thank you for visiting ASUS eShop! ASUS eShop is temporarily unavailable as we are currently upgrading our system to further enhance your ASUS online shopping experience. We apologize for any inconvenience . If you have any questions regarding to your order on ASUS eShop United Kingdom site, please email us. I'll wager that they still don't sell laptop parts in the UK / EU... -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From marvin at west.net Thu Aug 5 21:30:29 2010 From: marvin at west.net (Marvin Johnston) Date: Thu, 05 Aug 2010 19:30:29 -0700 Subject: Data General 6050 Disk Drive Message-ID: <4C5B73C5.4010500@west.net> A friend of mine has a Data General Model 6050 Disk Drive with no disk packs. This thing is fairly heavy (guessing 80 - 100 pounds) and appears to be complete although the top cover screws have been removed and it looks like it might have hit something (the front panel is somewhat bent.) Anyone interested? I can disassemble or whatever to reduce shipping costs. I think he would be happy with around $50.00, or maybe slightly less. Thanks! Marvin From mdavidson1963 at gmail.com Thu Aug 5 21:36:42 2010 From: mdavidson1963 at gmail.com (Mark Davidson) Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2010 19:36:42 -0700 Subject: Data General 6050 Disk Drive In-Reply-To: <4C5B73C5.4010500@west.net> References: <4C5B73C5.4010500@west.net> Message-ID: Location? On Thu, Aug 5, 2010 at 7:30 PM, Marvin Johnston wrote: > > A friend of mine ?has a Data General Model 6050 Disk Drive with no disk > packs. This thing is fairly heavy (guessing 80 - 100 pounds) and appears to > be complete although the top cover screws have been removed and it looks > like it might have hit something (the front panel is somewhat bent.) > > Anyone interested? I can disassemble or whatever to reduce shipping costs. I > think he would be happy with around $50.00, or maybe slightly less. > > Thanks! > > Marvin > From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Aug 5 22:14:35 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2010 23:14:35 -0400 Subject: Data General 6050 Disk Drive In-Reply-To: <4C5B73C5.4010500@west.net> References: <4C5B73C5.4010500@west.net> Message-ID: > and it looks > like it might have hit something (the front panel is somewhat bent.) I have seen quite a few like this - I think it is a design flaw that comes out when people tried to force the drive out of the rack. -- Will From binarydinosaurs at gmail.com Fri Aug 6 03:19:10 2010 From: binarydinosaurs at gmail.com (Adrian Graham) Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2010 09:19:10 +0100 Subject: Pronouncing acronyms (was Re: DEC acronyms) In-Reply-To: <4C5B3D0C.80109@philpem.me.uk> References: <4C5B2384.4050309@philpem.me.uk> <4C5AC33A.23908.1235C51@cclist.sydex.com> <4C5B2BE7.4030202@philpem.me.uk> <4C5B3D0C.80109@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: On 5 August 2010 23:37, Philip Pemberton wrote: > On 05/08/10 22:40, Adrian Graham wrote: >> >> http://uk.asus.com/ContentPage.aspx?Content_Type=bottom&Content_Id=85 >> >> or if you don't want to clicky: +44 (0) 870 1208 340 or 01442 202700 > > That's new. Last time I checked they didn't even have that... Seems they've > revamped the "e-shop" and actually added a link to it, but it's as broken as > ever: > I got the 01442 number from saynoto0870.co.uk, there's a note against it that says 'don't know how much longer this will last but keep trying' > > I'll wager that they still don't sell laptop parts in the UK / EU... > When we're fixing laptops we'll get bits from ebay that we need, no point in going back to the manufacturer for the very reason you state... -- -- adrian/witchy Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest home? computer collection? www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Fri Aug 6 07:33:33 2010 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2010 08:33:33 -0400 Subject: Greetings fellow classiccmp'ers In-Reply-To: <20100801195510.C7FAD1E0229@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> References: <20100801195510.C7FAD1E0229@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <4C5C011D.1070701@compsys.to> >Tim Shoppa wrote: >Having recently migrated all the stuff on *.trailing-edge.com to a 2010 >era server (as opposed to the 2000 era server it was on - previous >to that it had been on an Alpha with VMS, and previous to that it >had been on a VAX with VMS) with >fresh installs of all the software I was pleasantly >surprised with the advances that have been made in apache and mailman >configuration over time especially with respect to virtual domains etc. >In particular the Ubuntu distribution was very straightforward to deal with... >after I had adopted to the more modern configuration techniques. > >And spamassassin can be better integrated with postfix and mailman than >in the past, to the point where the obvious spams never have to make it >to a moderator's mailbox or turn up as a bogus request to the admin >address. > >I'm not sure you need to stage through an intermediate platform, BTW. >Just bite the bullet and go to the final platform. Unless you really >enjoy installing and configuring everything twice. Although I was >pleasantly surprised with the new Apache etc. configuration methods >I still wouldn't want to do it twice. > Can you let us know the new address of those files? In particular, I was impressed with the stuff at: ftp://ftp.trailing-edge.com/pub but it no longer responds. Are those files available elsewhere and I am just looking in the wrong place? Jerome Fine From ICS65 at sbcglobal.net Fri Aug 6 10:32:12 2010 From: ICS65 at sbcglobal.net (George Wiegand) Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2010 11:32:12 -0400 Subject: Data General 6050 Disk Drive References: <4C5B73C5.4010500@west.net> Message-ID: <111FBC2BCF064EEEBD4EA0B093D5543F@ecs40ks4zrtt7t> Sure, I think there should be quite a few people on list that could use it, including myself. So where's it located? ,George ----- Original Message ----- From: "Marvin Johnston" To: "ClassicCmp" Sent: Thursday, August 05, 2010 10:30 PM Subject: Data General 6050 Disk Drive > > A friend of mine has a Data General Model 6050 Disk Drive with no disk > packs. This thing is fairly heavy (guessing 80 - 100 pounds) and appears > to be complete although the top cover screws have been removed and it > looks like it might have hit something (the front panel is somewhat bent.) > > Anyone interested? I can disassemble or whatever to reduce shipping costs. > I think he would be happy with around $50.00, or maybe slightly less. > > Thanks! > > Marvin From marvin at west.net Fri Aug 6 12:21:05 2010 From: marvin at west.net (Marvin Johnston) Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2010 10:21:05 -0700 Subject: Data General 6050 Disk Drive Message-ID: <4C5C4481.3080603@west.net> Oops, I guess everyones esp is not working so well having to ask where this unit is :). It is located in Santa Barbara, CA. I received an email almost immediately from someone interested. If he ends up not taking it, I'll repost to the list. Thanks! Marvin From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Aug 6 14:12:24 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2010 20:12:24 +0100 (BST) Subject: Pronouncing acronyms (was Re: DEC acronyms) In-Reply-To: <4C5B2384.4050309@philpem.me.uk> from "Philip Pemberton" at Aug 5, 10 09:48:04 pm Message-ID: > > On 04/08/10 19:12, Tony Duell wrote: > > It doens't apply here, but I've come to the point where it's quicker fo= > r > > me to trace out a scheamtic than to do battle with teh so-called > > 'customer suppoer' for many procducts. Same with warrenties, actually, > > Much of the time I find it quicker and less hassle to fix the darn thin= > g > > myself than to jump through hoops to get a free repair... > > Don't get me started on customer disservice... I think this rant could run and run... One of my major dislikes is companies who do not reply to queries/complaints .Put it this way, I bought a product some years ago which di not meet the advertised speicifcations (if they say 'built in assembler; then i darn well expect there to be one). I wrote 2 letters, the socond one including IRCs, and enver got a reply. The company? HP (!). I will never buy another new HP product... It's a pity becasue I'd been using their machines for many years until then, and had had excelelnt customer service (not that I needed it very often). > > A year or so ago I ordered some hardware and had it sent to work (the=20 > alternative was to take a week off; the distributor wouldn't give me a=20 > firm date for delivery, nor were they willing to let me send a courier=20 > down to pick it up). Fast forward to last week when said hardware=20 > breaks. Turns out it's got a "lifetime guarantee" handled through the=20 > distributor. As an aside, I've found a lot of lifetime (or exxtended) guarantees are not worth the paper they're printed on. They either depend on having thr thing checked/serviced my the manufacuter (cars often have this one...) or the gurrantee covers parts, but you still have to pay for labour. And they wont give you the bits to fit yourself. Of coruse most of the time they simply inflate the labour charge to cover the cost of the parts... [...] > "I may have given you my name, but I'm not going to repeat it. I feel=20 > this conversation has gone on long enough, goodbye. *click*" As I said, not worth the hassle. The sooned such companies learn to actually support their customers, the better! > > > This is the same company whose "resolution" for replacing a faulty PC=20 > motherboard was to send me someone else's faulty board, and call it=20 > "refurbished". Yes it was nice and clean, but the blown power FETs were=20 > a bit of a give-away... I see... > > Yes, they're on my "naughty list"... though dealing with the fallout=20 > from the stuff I've bought from them in the past will be good=20 > entertainment for years to come. > > [ Is it just me or are computer vendors about as trustworthy as the=20 > average used car salesmen? Although in most cases the manufacturers=20 I can't disagree with you... That's one reason I stick to older kit. I can fix it myself, not having the hassle of sealing with those sort of lamebrains easily outwiehgts having to track down faults with 'scope and logic analyer myself... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Aug 6 14:15:14 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2010 20:15:14 +0100 (BST) Subject: Pronouncing acronyms (was Re: DEC acronyms) In-Reply-To: <4C5B2BE7.4030202@philpem.me.uk> from "Philip Pemberton" at Aug 5, 10 10:23:51 pm Message-ID: > The annoying part is that ASUS USA will sell spare parts for their=20 > laptops (even stuff like motherboards) so you can basically do DIY=20 > fixes. ASUS Europe don't even have a phone number (IIRC). But not real poarts, like individual ICs, or even things like swithces and connectors (which are likely to break, and can be easily hand-soldered) I'll bet... Again, I have real service manauls for all my laptops (which are, of course, all on-topic here :-)) with schematics. And many of the parits I can still get (althoguh the ASICs would be fun to get now ;-(). But anyway... > > Seagate are almost as bad. "Send us the drive, we'll pay return post,=20 > but it has to be sent in one of our RMA-Approved Boxes complete with=20 > branding".... last time I checked, one of those boxes was =A325 plus VAT=20 > and P&P. This and the "F-you" I got when my Barracuda 7200.11 packed in=20 Yep, I had that little scam... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Aug 6 14:04:35 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2010 20:04:35 +0100 (BST) Subject: To scrap or not to scrap? In-Reply-To: <4C5B1E92.1040909@hachti.de> from "Philipp Hachtmann" at Aug 5, 10 10:26:58 pm Message-ID: > > Hi, > > >>> * Philips P4500 computer (or 5400?) > >> > >> don't know what that is. you coulda told us. And you really should > >> make up your mind here. > >> > > The Philips P4500 is a mini-mainframe. AFAIR it supported Condtrol Data > > disks and Pertec tape drives. > > It came with COBOL. > > I looked again. It is a 4500. With a terminal. There's a CDC SMD 14" hard disk installed. The drive This sounds sufficiently unusual that it shouldn't be scrapped. Oh why can't it be in England??? > has the same brown Philips design as the rest. Drive is calles "Mini module drive". I powered up the > drive without the computer connected. After finding the transport lock it spun up, loaded heads, and > got ready. I have no idea about the overall condition of the system. > > If nobody speaks for the machine, it will be scrapped in the next weeks. The disk drive will be Plese try to save it. Philips machines are suffiiciently odd to be interesting if you see what I mean. OK, I am biased (my first mincomputer was a Philips, I read those schematiocs many times), but still... -tony From arcarlini at iee.org Fri Aug 6 14:35:08 2010 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2010 20:35:08 +0100 Subject: Pronouncing acronyms (was Re: DEC acronyms) In-Reply-To: <4C5B2BE7.4030202@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <943F9961A3AD4CCBB749EC14135A8A36@ANTONIOPC> Philip Pemberton [classiccmp at philpem.me.uk] wrote: > Seagate are almost as bad. "Send us the drive, we'll pay return post, > but it has to be sent in one of our RMA-Approved Boxes complete with > branding".... last time I checked, one of those boxes was ?25 > plus VAT > and P&P. This and the "F-you" I got when my Barracuda 7200.11 > packed in > from a firmware issue basically means they're not going to be > seeing any > of my $$$ for a VERY LONG time. FWIW I've sent back a couple of Seagate drives from work and had no trouble. They do want it packed properly but didn't bat an eyelid with the random packaging I had to hand. Same deal with WD but they're even better: give them a credit card and they'll send the new drive out first. You then send back the broken one in whatever they sent the new one ... Antonio From hachti at hachti.de Fri Aug 6 19:24:17 2010 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Sat, 07 Aug 2010 02:24:17 +0200 Subject: FYI - Maryland Computer Museum article In-Reply-To: <4C574773.2070101@atarimuseum.com> References: <4C574063.3070401@bitsavers.org> <4C5745AC.9080806@snarc.net> <4C574773.2070101@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <4C5CA7B1.4070101@hachti.de> On 03.08.2010 00:32, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > Not all of us have a former Naval Communications Research Base to setup > our stuff in ;-) I definitively prefer a few smaller medieval castles - they are far more solid and emphasize the vintage feeling :-) The multi-castle approach (worth a patent?) provides some redundancy in case of should happen. It also enables all of the four to sixteen possible visitors to visit your collection on an ecologically reasonable basis. Oh dear, it's 2:22 a.m. ..... :-) From hachti at hachti.de Fri Aug 6 19:26:40 2010 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Sat, 07 Aug 2010 02:26:40 +0200 Subject: FYI - Maryland Computer Museum article In-Reply-To: References: <4C574063.3070401@bitsavers.org> <4C5745AC.9080806@snarc.net> <4C574773.2070101@atarimuseum.com> <4C574A86.1020608@snarc.net> <4C578566.2060805@comcast.net> Message-ID: <4C5CA840.6000207@hachti.de> On 03.08.2010 05:17, William Donzelli wrote: >> - there's no rule that a museum is supposed to be publicly owned. > > I do not know about other states, but in New York - yes, real > incorporated museums are public, officially part of University of the > State of New York, and must follow the Rules of the Regents. Ahh...! That discussion rings a bell.... pdp12.org From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Sat Aug 7 12:13:40 2010 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Sat, 07 Aug 2010 12:13:40 -0500 Subject: ANN: liblpfk (IBM LPFK driver library), tumble-0.33-philpem1 In-Reply-To: <4C4F8179.5020604@philpem.me.uk> References: <4C4F8179.5020604@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4C5D9444.5090406@brutman.com> Philip Pemberton wrote: > Hi guys, > > A few of you might remember the IBM LPFK bulk-order a couple of years > back, and the ensuing chaos of figuring out the control protocol (which > was eventually resolved when Michael Brutman found some old IBM protocol > docs which covered the LPFK). > > I figure I've been sitting on the code for long enough: it's time to > make a proper release! > > Anyone who wants to have a play with this is welcome to do so: the code > is on my website, under "Code :: liblpfk", or if you'd prefer a direct > link: > http://www.philpem.me.uk/code/liblpfk/ > Excellent! (I'm two weeks late seeing this - something about 1000+ messages accumulated in my mailbox.) Mike From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Aug 7 12:59:42 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2010 18:59:42 +0100 (BST) Subject: FYI - Maryland Computer Museum articleu In-Reply-To: <4C5CA7B1.4070101@hachti.de> from "Philipp Hachtmann" at Aug 7, 10 02:24:17 am Message-ID: > I definitively prefer a few smaller medieval castles - they are far more > solid and emphasize the vintage feeling :-) I think I;'d prefer a Victorian factory building with the steam engine (anf boiler) and lineshafting still in place :-) Castles, at least the ones I've fisited over here, tend to have narrow stone helical staricases, which would not be easy to get 19" racks up. -tony From silent700 at gmail.com Sat Aug 7 13:35:16 2010 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2010 13:35:16 -0500 Subject: That darned PDP font Message-ID: This probably comes up every other year or so, but I am looking for the font used on older DEC literature. It may or may not be the one used for the actual PDP11 logo (only three character examples there ;) but it is the one used on the covers of the old Handbooks, like this one: http://gargravarr.cc.utexas.edu/cc/artifacts/dec-pdp-11-processor-handbook-cover.jpg There are many similar round fonts out there, and one could make the pdp11 logo out of them, but the other characters fail. Has this mystery been solved? Internal font? All hand drawn? -- jht From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Aug 7 14:21:00 2010 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Sat, 07 Aug 2010 13:21:00 -0600 Subject: FYI - Maryland Computer Museum articleu In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C5DB21C.9080909@jetnet.ab.ca> Tony Duell wrote: >> I definitively prefer a few smaller medieval castles - they are far more >> solid and emphasize the vintage feeling :-) > > I think I;'d prefer a Victorian factory building with the steam engine > (anf boiler) and lineshafting still in place :-) > > Castles, at least the ones I've fisited over here, tend to have narrow > stone helical staricases, which would not be easy to get 19" racks up. That would explain why , Dr Frankenstein movies all use analog equipment. :) > -tony > From ragooman at gmail.com Sat Aug 7 14:40:44 2010 From: ragooman at gmail.com (Dan Roganti) Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2010 15:40:44 -0400 Subject: GET LAMP is here Message-ID: GET LAMP is here =Dan -- --http://www.vintagecomputer.net/ragooman/ From geneb at deltasoft.com Sat Aug 7 14:44:57 2010 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2010 12:44:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: GET LAMP is here In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, 7 Aug 2010, Dan Roganti wrote: > GET LAMP is here > I'm hoping my copy will be here today. What coin# did you get? :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Aug 7 15:08:04 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2010 21:08:04 +0100 (BST) Subject: FYI - Maryland Computer Museum articleu In-Reply-To: <4C5DB21C.9080909@jetnet.ab.ca> from "Ben" at Aug 7, 10 01:21:00 pm Message-ID: > > Castles, at least the ones I've fisited over here, tend to have narrow > > stone helical staricases, which would not be easy to get 19" racks up. > > That would explain why , Dr Frankenstein movies all use analog equipment. :) Would it? Many analogue instruemnts come/came in 19" rack cases too... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Aug 7 15:09:13 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2010 21:09:13 +0100 (BST) Subject: GET LAMP is here In-Reply-To: from "Gene Buckle" at Aug 7, 10 12:44:57 pm Message-ID: > > On Sat, 7 Aug 2010, Dan Roganti wrote: > > > GET LAMP is here > > > I'm hoping my copy will be here today. What coin# did you get? :) Are the rest of us supposed to have a clue about this? -tony From ragooman at gmail.com Sat Aug 7 15:08:09 2010 From: ragooman at gmail.com (Dan Roganti) Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2010 16:08:09 -0400 Subject: GET LAMP is here In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Aug 7, 2010 at 3:44 PM, Gene Buckle wrote: > On Sat, 7 Aug 2010, Dan Roganti wrote: > > GET LAMP is here >> >> I'm hoping my copy will be here today. What coin# did you get? :) > > #948 don't lick it, the card says 'made in china' :) =Dan -- --http://www.vintagecomputer.net/ragooman/ From geneb at deltasoft.com Sat Aug 7 15:23:47 2010 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2010 13:23:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: GET LAMP is here In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, 7 Aug 2010, Tony Duell wrote: >> >> On Sat, 7 Aug 2010, Dan Roganti wrote: >> >>> GET LAMP is here >>> >> I'm hoping my copy will be here today. What coin# did you get? :) > > Are the rest of us supposed to have a clue about this? > http://www.getlamp.com - Before the first person shooter, there was the second person thinker. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From geneb at deltasoft.com Sat Aug 7 15:24:45 2010 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2010 13:24:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: GET LAMP is here In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, 7 Aug 2010, Dan Roganti wrote: > On Sat, Aug 7, 2010 at 3:44 PM, Gene Buckle wrote: > >> On Sat, 7 Aug 2010, Dan Roganti wrote: >> >> GET LAMP is here >>> >>> I'm hoping my copy will be here today. What coin# did you get? :) >> >> > > #948 > > don't lick it, the card says 'made in china' :) > Heheheh. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From cclist at sydex.com Sat Aug 7 15:39:36 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 07 Aug 2010 13:39:36 -0700 Subject: GET LAMP is here In-Reply-To: References: , , Message-ID: <4C5D6218.15969.1A45B82@cclist.sydex.com> Okay, I get the reference to Colossal Cave, but what does this have to do with microcomputers, as the introduction seems to imply? I recall that the original was done on a DECSystem 10, not a micro. (A DEC FE got me a tape of the source and database and I converted it to run on a CDC 6000 series machine--I should have been fired for all the lost company time that resulted, but somehow I escaped). --Chuck From geneb at deltasoft.com Sat Aug 7 15:45:43 2010 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2010 13:45:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: GET LAMP is here In-Reply-To: <4C5D6218.15969.1A45B82@cclist.sydex.com> References: , , <4C5D6218.15969.1A45B82@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 7 Aug 2010, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Okay, I get the reference to Colossal Cave, but what does this have > to do with microcomputers, as the introduction seems to imply? I > recall that the original was done on a DECSystem 10, not a micro. (A > DEC FE got me a tape of the source and database and I converted it to > run on a CDC 6000 series machine--I should have been fired for all > the lost company time that resulted, but somehow I escaped). > Chuck, Get Lamp is a documentary that covers adventure games. He even went to the cave where the first Adventure was based on. It's done by the same guy that did the BBS Documentary. It's been in the works for about 4 years or so. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sat Aug 7 15:47:09 2010 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2010 13:47:09 -0700 Subject: FYI - Maryland Computer Museum articleu In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8c5338f08ef9fb7652ca3b2ef334437b@cs.ubc.ca> On 2010 Aug 7, at 1:08 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >>> Castles, at least the ones I've fisited over here, tend to have >>> narrow >>> stone helical staricases, which would not be easy to get 19" racks >>> up. >> >> That would explain why , Dr Frankenstein movies all use analog >> equipment. :) > > Would it? Many analogue instruemnts come/came in 19" rack cases too... But analog equipment is continuously variable, so it will fit around curves. From ragooman at gmail.com Sat Aug 7 15:53:15 2010 From: ragooman at gmail.com (Dan Roganti) Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2010 16:53:15 -0400 Subject: GET LAMP is here In-Reply-To: <4C5D6218.15969.1A45B82@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4C5D6218.15969.1A45B82@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Aug 7, 2010 at 4:39 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Okay, I get the reference to Colossal Cave, but what does this have > to do with microcomputers, as the introduction seems to imply? I > recall that the original was done on a DECSystem 10, not a micro. (A > DEC FE got me a tape of the source and database and I converted it to > run on a CDC 6000 series machine--I should have been fired for all > the lost company time that resulted, but somehow I escaped). > > I think don't they neglect the origins. I would say that since the advent of the microprocessor in the 70s, the market essentially bursted into a much wider audience, since more home microcomputers were made than any other category (mini's, big iron, etc) and allowed more people to have the text adventure experience - more than just those of us in the industry. =Dan -- --http://www.vintagecomputer.net/ragooman/ From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Sat Aug 7 16:30:05 2010 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Sat, 07 Aug 2010 16:30:05 -0500 Subject: Iomega Bernoulli Box 20+20 (A220H) In-Reply-To: <4C390EC0.5090003@brutman.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20100701171352.0ba34848@localhost>, <4C2D0410.1615.2C6F772@cclist.sydex.com>, <4C38B206.4090806@brutman.com> <4C38833D.7009.13C42B5@cclist.sydex.com> <4C390EC0.5090003@brutman.com> Message-ID: <4C5DD05D.9090906@brutman.com> Almost there ... I got a good tip that 10MB cartridges would work in a 20MB drive. I found 10MB cartridges on eBay at a reasonable price, and they at least fit in the drive. I connected the drive to an older Linux machine, figuring that I would need all of the tools that I could get my hands on. Linux sees it as a 10MB mass storage device with 39168 256 byte sectors. This is goodness. The bad part is that Linux, even on an older kernel like 2.6.16 doesn't seem to know how to deal with 256 byte sectored media. Any attempt to read from the device reports a buffer underrun which always shows that the number of bytes read is half of what was asked. Some quick Googling did not find a method around this. I'm going to have to go back to something much older, like a 2.2 or 2.4 kernel and hope things are better. Or go to DOS with the Iomega software, but I don't have that yet. On the positive side, the drive is running. And it's a noisy beast, befitting it's size. :-) Special thanks to ChuckG for nudging me in the write direction.. It's SCSI enough for Linux to talk to it. And to Jim Scheef who gave me the tip about the 10MB media working in a 20MB drive. Mike From rich.cini at verizon.net Sat Aug 7 17:24:43 2010 From: rich.cini at verizon.net (Richard Cini) Date: Sat, 07 Aug 2010 18:24:43 -0400 Subject: GET LAMP is here In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I just ordered mine -- the double-pack with the BBS documentary. On 8/7/10 4:23 PM, "Gene Buckle" wrote: > On Sat, 7 Aug 2010, Tony Duell wrote: > >>> >>> On Sat, 7 Aug 2010, Dan Roganti wrote: >>> >>>> GET LAMP is here >>>> >>> I'm hoping my copy will be here today. What coin# did you get? :) >> >> Are the rest of us supposed to have a clue about this? >> > http://www.getlamp.com - Before the first person shooter, there was the > second person thinker. :) > > g. Rich -- Rich Cini Collector of Classic Computers Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator http://www.altair32.com http://www.classiccmp.org/cini From cclist at sydex.com Sat Aug 7 17:26:46 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 07 Aug 2010 15:26:46 -0700 Subject: Iomega Bernoulli Box 20+20 (A220H) In-Reply-To: <4C5DD05D.9090906@brutman.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20100701171352.0ba34848@localhost>, <4C390EC0.5090003@brutman.com>, <4C5DD05D.9090906@brutman.com> Message-ID: <4C5D7B36.29751.2067603@cclist.sydex.com> On 7 Aug 2010 at 16:30, Michael B. Brutman wrote: > Some quick Googling did not find a method around this. I'm going to > have to go back to something much older, like a 2.2 or 2.4 kernel and > hope things are better. Or go to DOS with the Iomega software, but I > don't have that yet. 256-byte sectors and Linux don't seem to like each other. I think that Linux likes to buffer 512-byte sectors and gets confused when presented with something else. However, I think that sg_dd might at least read and write in raw form, to and from your drives: http://linux.die.net/man/8/sg_dd The alternative might be to hack an existing driver to transfer two sectors when one is requested. --Chuck From michael.passer at gmail.com Sat Aug 7 17:54:15 2010 From: michael.passer at gmail.com (Michael Passer) Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2010 17:54:15 -0500 Subject: FS local pickup only-Kansas City, MO area-OSI C1P, C4P, SuperPET, PET 4016, DEC VT-180, TRS-80 4 and 4P Message-ID: Greetings, all. Have the following for sale--need to move these quickly and they are priced as such. I am in Greenwood, Missouri (a few blocks east of Lee's Summit along Missouri 150). I am not looking for eBay prices but am also not looking for eBay-level hassle--I just don't have time to pack and ship these systems anywhere; they would have to be picked up locally and paid for with cash. I would of course be happy to allow prospective buyers to power up each machine and verify its operation to his satisfaction before paying. Ohio Scientific C1P with disk drive - $125 Ohio Scientific C4P with disk drive - $150 Commodore SuperPET with 8050 (one drive needs a part for the door) - $90 Commodore PET 4016 - $50 DEC VT-180 - $50 TRS-80 Model 4 - $20 TRS-80 Model 4P - $30 I additionally have several VIC-20s, C-64s, a C-128 or two, disk drives, Atari 8-bit machines, an Atari ST, monitors, and software for those interested in things along those lines as well. That said, I will listen to and consider any reasonable offer. Thank you for taking a moment to read this! Michael Passer michael.passer at gmail.com From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Sat Aug 7 18:15:04 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2010 20:15:04 -0300 Subject: GET LAMP is here References: Message-ID: <0ab501cb3687$df04cdf0$0600000a@portajara> >> > GET LAMP is here >> > >> I'm hoping my copy will be here today. What coin# did you get? :) > > Are the rest of us supposed to have a clue about this? Ditto?! From michael.passer at gmail.com Sat Aug 7 18:28:32 2010 From: michael.passer at gmail.com (Michael Passer) Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2010 18:28:32 -0500 Subject: FS local pickup only-Kansas City, MO area-OSI C1P, C4P, SuperPET, PET 4016, DEC VT-180, TRS-80 4 and 4P In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The items mentioned have been tentatively sold -- thank you! From tpeters at mixcom.com Sat Aug 7 21:31:24 2010 From: tpeters at mixcom.com (Tom Peters) Date: Sat, 07 Aug 2010 21:31:24 -0500 Subject: GET LAMP is here In-Reply-To: <0ab501cb3687$df04cdf0$0600000a@portajara> References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20100807213037.0cc9ddc0@localhost> At 08:15 PM 8/7/2010 -0300, you wrote: >>> > GET LAMP is here >>> > >>>I'm hoping my copy will be here today. What coin# did you get? :) >>Are the rest of us supposed to have a clue about this? > > Ditto?! Oooh! ooh! This looks so cool. I placed my order 5 minutes ago. ----- --... ...-- -.. . -. ----. --.- --.- -... tpeters at nospam.mixcom.com (remove "nospam") N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) WEB: http://www.mixcom.com/tpeters 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W, Elevation 815', Grid Square EN53wc WAN/LAN/Telcom Analyst, Tech Writer, MCP, CCNA, Registered Linux User 385531 From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Sat Aug 7 21:55:45 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2010 23:55:45 -0300 Subject: GET LAMP is here References: <5.1.0.14.2.20100807213037.0cc9ddc0@localhost> Message-ID: <0c0901cb36a5$ff411470$0600000a@portajara> >Oooh! ooh! This looks so cool. I placed my order 5 minutes ago. COOL! COOL! COOOLLL!!! The coin is beautiful! :D From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Aug 7 22:16:15 2010 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Sat, 07 Aug 2010 21:16:15 -0600 Subject: GET LAMP is here In-Reply-To: <0c0901cb36a5$ff411470$0600000a@portajara> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20100807213037.0cc9ddc0@localhost> <0c0901cb36a5$ff411470$0600000a@portajara> Message-ID: <4C5E217F.1090108@jetnet.ab.ca> I am still trying to get into the CAVE... :) I guess I better power up the 8, and try my hand at adventure again this weekend. Ben. PS. The site looks nice too. From silent700 at gmail.com Sat Aug 7 23:50:33 2010 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2010 23:50:33 -0500 Subject: GET LAMP is here In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Aug 7, 2010 at 2:44 PM, Gene Buckle wrote: > I'm hoping my copy will be here today. ?What coin# did you get? :) I wasn't going to bother checking the mail today...but there it is! Coin #642. Any idea what # he started with? From geneb at deltasoft.com Sun Aug 8 00:02:25 2010 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2010 22:02:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: GET LAMP is here In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, 7 Aug 2010, Jason T wrote: > On Sat, Aug 7, 2010 at 2:44 PM, Gene Buckle wrote: >> I'm hoping my copy will be here today. ?What coin# did you get? :) > > I wasn't going to bother checking the mail today...but there it is! Coin #642. > > Any idea what # he started with? > 0. :) The coins were custom made just for the documentary. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Sun Aug 8 03:15:01 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun, 08 Aug 2010 09:15:01 +0100 Subject: Pronouncing acronyms (was Re: DEC acronyms) In-Reply-To: <943F9961A3AD4CCBB749EC14135A8A36@ANTONIOPC> References: <943F9961A3AD4CCBB749EC14135A8A36@ANTONIOPC> Message-ID: <4C5E6785.30708@philpem.me.uk> On 06/08/10 20:35, arcarlini at iee.org wrote: > Same deal with WD but they're even better: give them a credit card > and they'll send the new drive out first. You then send back the > broken one in whatever they sent the new one ... Maxtor used to do that too -- they called it an "Advance RMA". They'd send the new drive, and you had 30 days after it arrived to send them the old one. If you didn't send it back, they charged your credit card for the RRP of the new drive. You can guess what happened to that policy after the Seagate buyout... -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From jws at jwsss.com Sat Aug 7 02:15:30 2010 From: jws at jwsss.com (Jim Stephens) Date: Sat, 07 Aug 2010 00:15:30 -0700 Subject: FYI - Maryland Computer Museum article In-Reply-To: <4C5CA7B1.4070101@hachti.de> References: <4C574063.3070401@bitsavers.org> <4C5745AC.9080806@snarc.net> <4C574773.2070101@atarimuseum.com> <4C5CA7B1.4070101@hachti.de> Message-ID: <4C5D0812.2080604@jwsss.com> On 8/6/2010 5:24 PM, Philipp Hachtmann wrote: > On 03.08.2010 00:32, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: >> Not all of us have a former Naval Communications Research Base to setup >> our stuff in ;-) > I definitively prefer a few smaller medieval castles - they are far > more solid and emphasize the vintage feeling :-) > The multi-castle approach (worth a patent?) provides some redundancy > in case of should happen. It also enables all > of the four to sixteen possible visitors to visit your collection on > an ecologically reasonable basis. > > Oh dear, it's 2:22 a.m. ..... :-) 1 am PDT in Los Angeles. Just a note, I imagine running power for your mainframe exhibit is easier in the Naval Base than running it in the castle. From jws at jwsss.com Sun Aug 8 01:05:43 2010 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Sat, 07 Aug 2010 23:05:43 -0700 Subject: GET LAMP is here In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C5E4937.5070204@jwsss.com> There was a story on some page that there are 1000 coins, first few reserved for the club that funded him and 1-10 reserved for him (1,2 went to Don Wood). On 8/7/2010 10:02 PM, Gene Buckle wrote: > On Sat, 7 Aug 2010, Jason T wrote: > >> On Sat, Aug 7, 2010 at 2:44 PM, Gene Buckle wrote: >>> I'm hoping my copy will be here today. What coin# did you get? :) >> >> I wasn't going to bother checking the mail today...but there it is! >> Coin #642. >> >> Any idea what # he started with? >> > 0. :) > > The coins were custom made just for the documentary. > > g. > From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Sun Aug 8 03:56:33 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun, 08 Aug 2010 09:56:33 +0100 Subject: Pronouncing acronyms (was Re: DEC acronyms) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C5E7141.50402@philpem.me.uk> On 06/08/10 20:12, Tony Duell wrote: > which di not meet the advertised speicifcations (if they say 'built in > assembler; then i darn well expect there to be one). I wrote 2 letters, > the socond one including IRCs, and enver got a reply. The company? HP > (!). I will never buy another new HP product... It's a pity becasue I'd > been using their machines for many years until then, and had had > excelelnt customer service (not that I needed it very often). Depends what 'era' of HP you're talking about; if we're talking pre-Carly Fiorina, then I'm surprised. Any time after that... not surprising in the least. Seems they've had a run of bad CEOs -- Fiorina chopping the company into tiny little bits, Hurd's relentless firings (and allegations of "inappropriate behaviour", see http://consumerist.com/2010/08/hp-ceo-resigns-following-revelation-of-inappropriate-relationship.html )... And then you look at Agilent... "Oh, you're still using a 16500B? Great, here's all the software that was on the HP FTP site, including the Symbol Utility disc, and the manuals are on our website under Old/Obsolete Products, Manuals, 16500B Series." > As an aside, I've found a lot of lifetime (or exxtended) guarantees are > not worth the paper they're printed on. They either depend on having thr > thing checked/serviced my the manufacuter (cars often have this one...) > or the gurrantee covers parts, but you still have to pay for labour. And > they wont give you the bits to fit yourself. Of coruse most of the time > they simply inflate the labour charge to cover the cost of the parts... For some things it is worth having an "extended" guarantee. Certain household goods for instance (read: dishwasher, washing machine, ...) The dishwasher here has been repaired at least four times. It's had: Two power switches One controller board At least one water supply valve The washer hasn't fared any better: New door, latch, hinge and seals Controller board (twice) Motor wiring harness A couple of other bits I can't remember off-hand (thermal switches, that sort of thing). For those, the D&G warranty has paid for itself at least twice over. I had one on a Canon DSLR lens because it had something of a reputation for issues with the bearings and lock mechanism. Thus far, mine's behaved itself... touch wood :) > That's one reason I stick to older kit. I can fix it myself, not having > the hassle of sealing with those sort of lamebrains easily outwiehgts > having to track down faults with 'scope and logic analyer myself... :) -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Sun Aug 8 07:45:34 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Sun, 8 Aug 2010 09:45:34 -0300 Subject: GET LAMP is here References: <4C5E4937.5070204@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <007a01cb36f7$a152a0c0$0600000a@portajara> > There was a story on some page that there are 1000 coins, first few > reserved for the club that funded him and 1-10 reserved for him (1,2 went > to Don Wood). And #42 for some guy, which I don't know nor understand its meaning, since I'm so far away from text adventures ;) From jfoust at threedee.com Sun Aug 8 18:26:29 2010 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun, 08 Aug 2010 18:26:29 -0500 Subject: HP Omnibook 425 available In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201008090141.o791fDdk049087@billY.EZWIND.NET> Forwarded from email: At 05:09 PM 8/8/2010, you wrote: >Hi my name is Eli Yarborough and I have an old HP Omnibook 425. I cannot find any place online that buys or sells this type of computer. I saw your website and thought you could help. I don't know if my Omnibook is the type of computer you would want or collect but I was wondering if you could provide me with some general insight about it. I'm not necessarily trying to sell it but I want to know if a computer like this is in demand and whether or not it's worth anything. It still works like new and comes with Microsoft Word and Excel along with a few other features. I still have all the accessories that came with the computer (the manuals and charger) along with external memory cards and other add-ons. I would just like to know if you or anyone you know is looking to add this to their collection. It would be a huge help if you could provide me with any information you have about this computer. It certainly was a great computer in its day and a fascinating example of the rap! id cha nges in technology. Thanks for your time and help! > >Eli Yarborough > >NC Tech Sales >carolinatechsales at gmail.com From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Sun Aug 8 14:15:16 2010 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Sun, 8 Aug 2010 12:15:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: P112 board edits Message-ID: I'm almost ready to start taking orders for P112 kits now. Before that I need some help from someone who knows how to edit gerbers. The edits are pretty minor, but I lack the appropriate software. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Aug 8 14:06:41 2010 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Sun, 08 Aug 2010 13:06:41 -0600 Subject: FYI - Maryland Computer Museum article In-Reply-To: <4C5D0812.2080604@jwsss.com> References: <4C574063.3070401@bitsavers.org> <4C5745AC.9080806@snarc.net> <4C574773.2070101@atarimuseum.com> <4C5CA7B1.4070101@hachti.de> <4C5D0812.2080604@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <4C5F0041.60105@jetnet.ab.ca> Jim Stephens wrote: > Just a note, I imagine running power for your mainframe exhibit is > easier in the Naval Base than running it in the castle. > Egor, up with the lighting rod now! Throw the switch! *KABOOM* *VAPORIZE* YES MASTER, WE HAVE THE POWER NOW! From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Aug 8 12:26:38 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 8 Aug 2010 18:26:38 +0100 (BST) Subject: FYI - Maryland Computer Museum articleu In-Reply-To: <8c5338f08ef9fb7652ca3b2ef334437b@cs.ubc.ca> from "Brent Hilpert" at Aug 7, 10 01:47:09 pm Message-ID: > >> That would explain why , Dr Frankenstein movies all use analog > >> equipment. :) > > > > Would it? Many analogue instruemnts come/came in 19" rack cases too... > > But analog equipment is continuously variable, so it will fit around > curves. I would suggest you don;t try this with an oscilloscope :-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Aug 8 12:28:13 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 8 Aug 2010 18:28:13 +0100 (BST) Subject: Iomega Bernoulli Box 20+20 (A220H) In-Reply-To: <4C5DD05D.9090906@brutman.com> from "Michael B. Brutman" at Aug 7, 10 04:30:05 pm Message-ID: > Special thanks to ChuckG for nudging me in the write direction.. It's As opposed to the read direction? Sorry, couldn't resist... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Aug 8 12:54:37 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 8 Aug 2010 18:54:37 +0100 (BST) Subject: Pronouncing acronyms (was Re: DEC acronyms) In-Reply-To: <4C5E7141.50402@philpem.me.uk> from "Philip Pemberton" at Aug 8, 10 09:56:33 am Message-ID: > > On 06/08/10 20:12, Tony Duell wrote: > > which di not meet the advertised speicifcations (if they say 'built in > > assembler; then i darn well expect there to be one). I wrote 2 letters, > > the socond one including IRCs, and enver got a reply. The company? HP > > (!). I will never buy another new HP product... It's a pity becasue I'd > > been using their machines for many years until then, and had had > > excelelnt customer service (not that I needed it very often). > > Depends what 'era' of HP you're talking about; if we're talking > pre-Carly Fiorina, then I'm surprised. Any time after that... not > surprising in the least. You got it/. It was not too long after the company was ruine by Ms Fiorina... > And then you look at Agilent... Indeed. I have bene pleasntly suprised by the old manuals you can download for free froom their site. Nothing specifically computer-related. but plenty of interesting manuals on classic test gear. Proper service manuals too. > For some things it is worth having an "extended" guarantee. Certain > household goods for instance (read: dishwasher, washing machine, ...) I suspoect the cost of me fixing it myself is a lot less than the ectended guarantee. > The dishwasher here has been repaired at least four times. It's had: > Two power switches > One controller board > At least one water supply valve > > The washer hasn't fared any better: > New door, latch, hinge and seals > Controller board (twice) > Motor wiring harness > A couple of other bits I can't remember off-hand (thermal switches, > that sort of thing). Might I suggest buying better quality :-).... So far, touch wood, the dishwasher has needed no repairs-- it's on of the last ones made with a motor-and-camshaft timer, so I can fix it properly. The washing machine has needed a notor controller (as luick would have it, it was the microcontrolelr that had failed, and they won't sell just the chip :-(). Yes, I've kept the old one, if anything fails on the replacement other than the microcontroller, I will do component-level repair. YEs, I do have the wiring diagrams, parts lists, exploded views, etc. > For those, the D&G warranty has paid for itself at least twice over. I > had one on a Canon DSLR lens because it had something of a reputation > for issues with the bearings and lock mechanism. Thus far, mine's > behaved itself... touch wood :) Fortuately all that goers wrong with the lenses for my cameras is that the grease goes rock-hard in the focussing helical threads (a pain to clean out, but possible), and occasionally oil migrates onto the diaphagm blades and causes them to stick (ditto). No electronics to go wrong, of course... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Aug 8 12:25:03 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 8 Aug 2010 18:25:03 +0100 (BST) Subject: GET LAMP is here In-Reply-To: from "Gene Buckle" at Aug 7, 10 01:23:47 pm Message-ID: > > Are the rest of us supposed to have a clue about this? > > > http://www.getlamp.com - Before the first person shooter, there was the > second person thinker. :) If this habit of giving a URL as an asnwer with no explanation continues, I am going to start answering questions with things like 'third page of the 7th notebook on the top shelf in my workshop'... But anyway, I now see it's a documentary about the history of text adventure games. Why couldn't somebody seay that? There is one thing that really grated on me when I looked at the site. And that is the lamp shown on the homepage, which is what we sould call a 'huricane lamp' and which burns parafin (kerosene). IIRC, in both Zork and Colossal Cave, the lamp is battery-powered, in fact in the latter I rememebr purchasing spare batties from a vending machine in one of the mazes. And in both games you could turn the lamp on without needing matches (which were one of the objects in at least one version of Zork), useful, since you'ed turn it off when you could to save it (it only lasted for a certain number of turns IIRC). 'A hollow voice says "Cretin"' :-) -tnny From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Sun Aug 8 12:21:27 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun, 08 Aug 2010 18:21:27 +0100 Subject: GET LAMP is here In-Reply-To: <007a01cb36f7$a152a0c0$0600000a@portajara> References: <4C5E4937.5070204@jwsss.com> <007a01cb36f7$a152a0c0$0600000a@portajara> Message-ID: <4C5EE797.9050902@philpem.me.uk> On 08/08/10 13:45, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > And #42 for some guy, which I don't know nor understand its meaning, > since I'm so far away from text adventures ;) Don't panic! That's a Hitch-Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy reference. 42 = The Meaning of Life, The Universe And Everything. The actual question which leads to the answer of the Meaning of Life The Universe And Everything is still up for debate :) "So long and thanks for all the fish," -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From ats at offog.org Sun Aug 8 10:37:13 2010 From: ats at offog.org (Adam Sampson) Date: Sun, 08 Aug 2010 16:37:13 +0100 Subject: GET LAMP is here In-Reply-To: <4C5E4937.5070204@jwsss.com> (jim s.'s message of "Sat, 07 Aug 2010 23:05:43 -0700") References: <4C5E4937.5070204@jwsss.com> Message-ID: jim s writes: > There was a story on some page that there are 1000 coins, first few > reserved for the club that funded him and 1-10 reserved for him (1,2 > went to Don Wood). That'd be this page: http://inventory.getlamp.com/2010/04/19/coins-and-numbering-and-how-that-goes/ The blog is well worth reading (as Jason Scott's writing usually is), if you're interested in seeing what goes into making and selling a documentary like this. -- Adam Sampson From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Sun Aug 8 23:44:03 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2010 01:44:03 -0300 Subject: Pronouncing acronyms (was Re: DEC acronyms) References: Message-ID: <039d01cb377d$d8fa8ed0$0600000a@portajara> > Indeed. I have bene pleasntly suprised by the old manuals you can > download for free froom their site. Nothing specifically > computer-related. but plenty of interesting manuals on classic test gear. > Proper service manuals too. And they are trying to build a better archive for older equipment. I uploaded mostly everything about the HP16500A to their servers, and it will be avaiable soon. From mardy at pernetics.com Sun Aug 8 08:18:02 2010 From: mardy at pernetics.com (Marden P. Marshall) Date: Sun, 8 Aug 2010 09:18:02 -0400 Subject: Todd Fishcer's IMSAI 8048 Doll House up for sale on eBay Message-ID: <41E8BA24-1418-43D6-947E-97D24D1ADC2D@pernetics.com> I hope that this ends up on display in a museum and not sitting in some collectors basement... Item number: 230508849284 -Mardy From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sun Aug 8 18:43:33 2010 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sun, 8 Aug 2010 16:43:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: does anyone know what this is (C64 Snapshot cartridge) Message-ID: <347113.16526.qm@web65506.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> http://cgi.ebay.com/Snapshot-64-Cartridge-Commodore-64-/170523686285?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0 the seller is too brain dead to describe what it is, despite stating that it's tested and working. I seem to have a vague recollection of what this is, but actually I'm not totally sure. From bqt at softjar.se Sun Aug 8 19:20:57 2010 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2010 02:20:57 +0200 Subject: PDP-11/44 mystery card In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C5F49E9.8040504@softjar.se> Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > Hi > > I've acquired two PDP-11/44 and have just now gone throught the list of > cards in the cpu-boxes and the spares. Here is a list: > > http://www.update.uu.se/~pontus/slask/11-44-kort.txt Nice! You'll be able to put together atleast one really nice 11/44 from that. I notice one FP11 in the list. > Also I wonder what the > "M7251 KG11-A U Network interface XOR and CRC block check option" Just what it says, Network interface XOR and CRC block check option. :-) Ok. The long answer then... You know about CRC-16 I assume? This is hardware to generate that. You shove data to the card, one word at a time, and you can read out the CRC value. This card is, however, not very popular or useful, since software CRC routines are actually faster on the PDP-11. DECnet can use this card if you have it, but it's recommended that it not be used for this fact. (The card is actually more generic, and can be used to generate any kind of CRC checksum, not just CRC-16.) > "M3110 DRCSA U Protocol assist #1 w/special character check and CRC (DEC/DLC/DRCSA)" > "M3111 DRCSA U Protocol assist #2 w/special character check and CRC (DEC/DLC/DRCSA)" No clear idea about those two... Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From quapla at xs4all.nl Mon Aug 9 03:44:24 2010 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (E. Groenenberg) Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2010 10:44:24 +0200 Subject: PDP-11/44 mystery card In-Reply-To: <4C5F49E9.8040504@softjar.se> References: <4C5F49E9.8040504@softjar.se> Message-ID: <026a58d8a1f1b300b4354b1c4d87c596.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> snip snip snip > >> "M3110 DRCSA U Protocol assist #1 w/special character check >> and CRC (DEC/DLC/DRCSA)" >> "M3111 DRCSA U Protocol assist #2 w/special character check >> and CRC (DEC/DLC/DRCSA)" > > No clear idea about those two... I checked with a co-worker (who did service PDP-11's) He thinks it may have been used as X.25 router/ lineinterface. Usually there is also a M3112 card (boot/terminator for DECSA) Ed -- Dit is een HTML vrije email / This is an HTML free email. From pete at dunnington.plus.com Mon Aug 9 05:06:15 2010 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2010 11:06:15 +0100 Subject: BC19V-02 Message-ID: <4C5FD317.20504@dunnington.plus.com> Anyone need a BC19V-02 cable? I believe it's a modem cable for a microVAX option, and I have no idea why I have it. 50-pin female D connector one end, DB25M the other (not all pin positions populated). Free for cost of postage from York, UK. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Aug 9 07:40:57 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2010 05:40:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: does anyone know what this is (C64 Snapshot cartridge) In-Reply-To: <347113.16526.qm@web65506.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> from Chris M at "Aug 8, 10 04:43:33 pm" Message-ID: <201008091240.o79Cew8G015686@floodgap.com> > http://cgi.ebay.com/Snapshot-64-Cartridge-Commodore-64-/170523686285?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0 > > the seller is too brain dead to describe what it is, despite stating that > it's tested and working. I seem to have a vague recollection of what this > is, but actually I'm not totally sure. Early freezer cartridge. This is what later turned into the Super Snapshot, also by LMS. I have an SSv5. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- "I'd love to go out with you, but I'm stuck in the fourth lotus position." - From ajp166 at verizon.net Mon Aug 9 08:01:18 2010 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2010 09:01:18 -0400 Subject: Todd Fishcer's IMSAI 8048 Doll House up for sale on eBay In-Reply-To: <41E8BA24-1418-43D6-947E-97D24D1ADC2D@pernetics.com> References: <41E8BA24-1418-43D6-947E-97D24D1ADC2D@pernetics.com> Message-ID: <4C5FFC1E.20700@verizon.net> On 08/08/2010 09:18 AM, Marden P. Marshall wrote: > I hope that this ends up on display in a museum and not sitting in some collectors basement... > > Item number: 230508849284 > > -Mardy > > > I'd seen that at a show many decades ago. No so oddly, I have one of the apparently very rare controllers the IMSAI IMP48 SBC. It's a fun board to work with and I even made a simplified copy so I could pack the IMSAI version away. The 8035/9 (romless 8048/9) is an ineresting chip to program and esy to understand. Since they are available and even the EProm/rom parts have a rom disable pin all the flavors are useful even programmed ones. Allison From christian_liendo at yahoo.com Mon Aug 9 08:28:50 2010 From: christian_liendo at yahoo.com (Christian Liendo) Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2010 06:28:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The gold C64 on ebay?? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <64342.40522.qm@web113502.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> http://cgi.ebay.com/Commodore-C64-Gold-Edition-1000247-/110569624763?pt=Klassische_Computer From geneb at deltasoft.com Mon Aug 9 08:33:25 2010 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2010 06:33:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: GET LAMP is here In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, 8 Aug 2010, Tony Duell wrote: >>> Are the rest of us supposed to have a clue about this? >>> >> http://www.getlamp.com - Before the first person shooter, there was the >> second person thinker. :) > > If this habit of giving a URL as an asnwer with no explanation continues, > I am going to start answering questions with things like 'third page of > the 7th notebook on the top shelf in my workshop'... > Well it was that or a Let Me Google That For You link. If that notebook has been scanned and is available via a URL equivalent to its physical location, I'd be all for it. Otherwise, quit whining. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Aug 9 08:35:30 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2010 06:35:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The gold C64 on ebay?? In-Reply-To: <64342.40522.qm@web113502.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> from Christian Liendo at "Aug 9, 10 06:28:50 am" Message-ID: <201008091335.o79DZU5a018104@floodgap.com> > http://cgi.ebay.com/Commodore-C64-Gold-Edition-1000247-/110569624763 That's one of the real ones. Wow. For those who don't know, http://www.floodgap.com/retrobits/ckb/secret/remix.html -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Our policy is, when in doubt, do the right thing. -- R. L. Ash ------------- From curt at atarimuseum.com Mon Aug 9 08:52:03 2010 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2010 09:52:03 -0400 Subject: The gold C64 on ebay?? In-Reply-To: <201008091335.o79DZU5a018104@floodgap.com> References: <201008091335.o79DZU5a018104@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <4C600803.8040407@atarimuseum.com> Besides what looks like a really cheap looking gold paint spray job, is there anyone truly unique about the unit? Does it have the signatures of the engineers in it or anything that shows it to be anything more then a C64 with some spray paint? I'm not doubting its authenticity, I would just like to know if there is anything that truly sets it apart. Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> http://cgi.ebay.com/Commodore-C64-Gold-Edition-1000247-/110569624763 >> > > That's one of the real ones. Wow. For those who don't know, > > http://www.floodgap.com/retrobits/ckb/secret/remix.html > > From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Aug 9 08:55:41 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2010 06:55:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The gold C64 on ebay?? In-Reply-To: <4C600803.8040407@atarimuseum.com> from "Curt @ Atari Museum" at "Aug 9, 10 09:52:03 am" Message-ID: <201008091355.o79DtfHc015498@floodgap.com> > Besides what looks like a really cheap looking gold paint spray job, is > there anyone truly unique about the unit? Does it have the signatures > of the engineers in it or anything that shows it to be anything more > then a C64 with some spray paint? > > I'm not doubting its authenticity, I would just like to know if there is > anything that truly sets it apart. Nothing particularly otherwise. They are simply hand marked, and the unit is dipped in gold paint (this comes from Jim Butterfield). Just a purely historical commemorative item. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- The whippings shall continue until morale improves. ------------------------ From geneb at deltasoft.com Mon Aug 9 08:58:44 2010 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2010 06:58:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The gold C64 on ebay?? In-Reply-To: <4C600803.8040407@atarimuseum.com> References: <201008091335.o79DZU5a018104@floodgap.com> <4C600803.8040407@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 9 Aug 2010, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > Besides what looks like a really cheap looking gold paint spray job, is there > anyone truly unique about the unit? Does it have the signatures of the > engineers in it or anything that shows it to be anything more then a C64 with > some spray paint? > > I'm not doubting its authenticity, I would just like to know if there is > anything that truly sets it apart. > Afaik, it commemorates(sp) the 1,000,000th C-64 off the production line in Germany. Isn't that unique enough for you? There weren't many of those plaques made. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From dgahling at hotmail.com Mon Aug 9 11:34:54 2010 From: dgahling at hotmail.com (Dan Gahlinger) Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2010 12:34:54 -0400 Subject: The gold C64 on ebay?? In-Reply-To: References: <201008091335.o79DZU5a018104@floodgap.com>, <4C600803.8040407@atarimuseum.com>, Message-ID: But according to the historic info, it's NOT actually the 1millionth off the line, they missed it, and grabbed one at random. so much less interesting in that case > Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2010 06:58:44 -0700 > From: geneb at deltasoft.com > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: The gold C64 on ebay?? > > On Mon, 9 Aug 2010, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > > > Besides what looks like a really cheap looking gold paint spray job, is there > > anyone truly unique about the unit? Does it have the signatures of the > > engineers in it or anything that shows it to be anything more then a C64 with > > some spray paint? > > > > I'm not doubting its authenticity, I would just like to know if there is > > anything that truly sets it apart. > > > > Afaik, it commemorates(sp) the 1,000,000th C-64 off the production line in > Germany. Isn't that unique enough for you? There weren't many of those > plaques made. > > g. > -- > Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 > http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. > http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project > > ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment > A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. > http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Aug 9 11:52:51 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2010 09:52:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The gold C64 on ebay?? In-Reply-To: from Dan Gahlinger at "Aug 9, 10 12:34:54 pm" Message-ID: <201008091652.o79GqpAP013898@floodgap.com> > But according to the historic info, it's NOT actually the 1millionth off > the line, they missed it, and grabbed one at random. That's the American Gold 64. This is the German Jubilee 64. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- This manual has been carefully for errors to make sure correct. -- classiccmp From RichA at vulcan.com Mon Aug 9 13:20:09 2010 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2010 11:20:09 -0700 Subject: That darned PDP font In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: From: Jason T Sent: Saturday, August 07, 2010 11:35 AM > This probably comes up every other year or so, but I am looking for > the font used on older DEC literature. It may or may not be the one > used for the actual PDP11 logo (only three character examples there ;) > but it is the one used on the covers of the old Handbooks, like this > one: > http://gargravarr.cc.utexas.edu/cc/artifacts/dec-pdp-11-processor-handbook-cover.jpg > There are many similar round fonts out there, and one could make the > pdp11 logo out of them, but the other characters fail. > Has this mystery been solved? Internal font? All hand drawn? http://vt100.net/dec/logo NB: The word you want is either "logotype" or "typeface". A font is made up of physical objects, usually bundled together. Also note that the letter style used in the logotype and in the name "PDP-11" is not the only style used by DEC. Cf. the lettering on the PDP-7 front panel, and the front covers of the preliminary and final PDP-7 handbooks http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/PDP-7/F-75P_PDP7prelimUM_Dec64.pdf http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/PDP-7/F-75_PDP-7userHbk_Jun65.pdf There's "older DEC literature" and there's "*older* DEC literature". Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.PDPplanet.org/ http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From legalize at xmission.com Mon Aug 9 14:40:14 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2010 13:40:14 -0600 Subject: That darned PDP font In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 09 Aug 2010 11:20:09 -0700. Message-ID: In article , Rich Alderson writes: > http://vt100.net/dec/logo > > NB: The word you want is either "logotype" or "typeface". A font is made > up of physical objects, usually bundled together. That page refers to work done by Ned Batchelder without providing a direct link to his Adobe Illustrator/PS/PDF file containing the logo. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From schoedel at kw.igs.net Mon Aug 9 14:43:47 2010 From: schoedel at kw.igs.net (schoedel at kw.igs.net) Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2010 15:43:47 -0400 Subject: That darned PDP font In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20100809191343.M69029@kw.igs.net> > > This probably comes up every other year or so, but I am looking for > > the font used on older DEC literature. It may or may not be the one > > used for the actual PDP11 logo (only three character examples there ;) > > but it is the one used on the covers of the old Handbooks, like this > > one: > > > http://gargravarr.cc.utexas.edu/cc/artifacts/dec-pdp-11-processor-handbook-cover.jpg > > http://vt100.net/dec/logo My impression was that he was not referring to the |d|i|g|i|t|a|l| logo, but rather the circle-based style used on the rest of that cover. I've spent some time off and on (but apparently not "on" in the last four years) on a re-creation. I started with the outline version, because there are larger samples available in the chapter headings of those handbooks, and when I last left off had completed a draft of the alphabet (lower case only, of course), most punctuation, and a couple digits. I have never found any matching commercial fonts. In the outline form, adjacent letters overlap by the stroke width, so they were obviously not set in metal type, but those books are late enough to have been phototypeset. -- Kevin Schoedel VA3TCS From silent700 at gmail.com Mon Aug 9 15:32:41 2010 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2010 15:32:41 -0500 Subject: That darned PDP font In-Reply-To: <20100809191343.M69029@kw.igs.net> References: <20100809191343.M69029@kw.igs.net> Message-ID: On Mon, Aug 9, 2010 at 2:43 PM, wrote: > My impression was that he was not referring to the |d|i|g|i|t|a|l| logo, but > rather the circle-based style used on the rest of that cover. Correct. I should have said "the typeface used for the text 'processor handbook' on that cover." I've seen discussions of the logo before. Interesting in its own right, but has been better covered. > I've spent some time off and on (but apparently not "on" in the last four years) > on a re-creation. I started with the outline version, because there are larger > samples available in the chapter headings of those handbooks, and when I last > left off had completed a draft of the alphabet (lower case only, of course), > most punctuation, and a couple digits. I'd be interested in making use of this if you've got it, even in its present for (lowers are just fine.) It will be for an appropriate, non-profit, ccmp cause ;) > I have never found any matching commercial fonts. In the outline form, adjacent > letters overlap by the stroke width, so they were obviously not set in metal Yeah, I can see how "pdp11" has been run together. Not hard to approximate with some patience in Pshop (for an amateur like me, anyway.) -- jht From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 9 15:24:10 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2010 21:24:10 +0100 (BST) Subject: PDP-11/44 mystery card In-Reply-To: <026a58d8a1f1b300b4354b1c4d87c596.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> from "E. Groenenberg" at Aug 9, 10 10:44:24 am Message-ID: > > snip snip snip > > > >> "M3110 DRCSA U Protocol assist #1 w/special character check > >> and CRC (DEC/DLC/DRCSA)" > >> "M3111 DRCSA U Protocol assist #2 w/special character check > >> and CRC (DEC/DLC/DRCSA)" > > > > No clear idea about those two... > > I checked with a co-worker (who did service PDP-11's) > He thinks it may have been used as X.25 router/ lineinterface. > Usually there is also a M3112 card (boot/terminator for DECSA) I _knew_ I recognised thase numbers... You are essentially right. They are essentially a custom 'processor' for X25 and other protocols used in the DECSA (Digital Ethernet Communications Server Aparatus or something similar). A DECSA is a special cabinet containing a PDP11/24 CPU, a boot/terminator board, those 2 protocol cards, RAM, a DEUNA (ethernet interface) and one or more line cards (dual height, in special slots). It's a sort of terminal server/X25 interface/etc I have one, and it led me to propose 'ARD's law of DECSA construction' which states 'The lower the importnace of a part of a DECSA, the more screws hold it in place'. This is illustrated by The logic boards plu in with no screws The PSU(s) are held in by 2 screws (each, if you hve 2 PSUs) The fan tray is held in by 4 screws (this is less important than the above, the thing will run for a short time with no fan tray). But the metal grille over the fan tray is held on by an amazing 28 screws (I had to take them all out and put them all back to remvoe the fan tray before removing the backplane... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 9 15:49:55 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2010 21:49:55 +0100 (BST) Subject: GET LAMP is here In-Reply-To: from "Gene Buckle" at Aug 9, 10 06:33:25 am Message-ID: > >>> Are the rest of us supposed to have a clue about this? > >>> > >> http://www.getlamp.com - Before the first person shooter, there was the > >> second person thinker. :) > > > > If this habit of giving a URL as an asnwer with no explanation continues, > > I am going to start answering questions with things like 'third page of > > the 7th notebook on the top shelf in my workshop'... > > > Well it was that or a Let Me Google That For You link. I don't see why a comment of the form 'It's a documentary abotu the heistory of text adventures, for more information see ' is impossible. > > If that notebook has been scanned and is available via a URL equivalent to > its physical location, I'd be all for it. Otherwise, quit whining. The point is that not all of us read e-mail on line, not all of us have a web browser (or more specifically a graphical web browser) on the machine we use to read mail (or in my case on any of my machines). Which means to follow such a URL involves almost as much work as you getting to see one of my workshop notebooks. And I want to know if that effort is worthwhile. -tony From geneb at deltasoft.com Mon Aug 9 16:14:51 2010 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2010 14:14:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: GET LAMP is here In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 9 Aug 2010, Tony Duell wrote: >>> If this habit of giving a URL as an asnwer with no explanation continues, >>> I am going to start answering questions with things like 'third page of >>> the 7th notebook on the top shelf in my workshop'... >>> >> Well it was that or a Let Me Google That For You link. > > I don't see why a comment of the form 'It's a documentary abotu the > heistory of text adventures, for more information see ' is impossible. > Well frankly, if I had any idea that you'd go Old Man McClusky on me while waving your cane in my face and raving about these damn kids, I just may have. Unfortunately I constantly forget that you like to party like it's 1979. >> >> If that notebook has been scanned and is available via a URL equivalent to >> its physical location, I'd be all for it. Otherwise, quit whining. > > The point is that not all of us read e-mail on line, not all of us have a > web browser (or more specifically a graphical web browser) on the machine > we use to read mail (or in my case on any of my machines). Which means to > follow such a URL involves almost as much work as you getting to see one > of my workshop notebooks. And I want to know if that effort is worthwhile. > I use Alpine to read email (text only) and have been known to use Lynx (text only browser) on occasion. Both of which are likely available if you're using pretty much any flavor of Unix, VMS, Linux or DOS. Because we've pretty much already defined that I'm an asshole, it should be added that I'm not terribly understanding of peoples' self-configured difficulty. You could easily build a machine that does all these new-fangled and modern webby things and yet you grump at ME because you have no way to copy & paste a url into any kind of browser. Yes, I like the trailing edge of computing, but you fell off of it and the guy pushing the stone wheelbarrow behind us is going to grind you to paste if you don't catch up. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Aug 9 17:16:50 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2010 15:16:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The gold C64 on ebay?? In-Reply-To: <4C600803.8040407@atarimuseum.com> References: <201008091335.o79DZU5a018104@floodgap.com> <4C600803.8040407@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <20100809151622.W21499@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 9 Aug 2010, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > Besides what looks like a really cheap looking gold paint spray job, is > there anyone truly unique about the unit? Does it have the signatures > of the engineers in it or anything that shows it to be anything more > then a C64 with some spray paint? > > I'm not doubting its authenticity, I would just like to know if there is > anything that truly sets it apart. Possibly the provenance of WHO sprayed the gold paint on it? From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Aug 9 17:20:38 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2010 15:20:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The gold C64 on ebay?? In-Reply-To: <4C600803.8040407@atarimuseum.com> References: <201008091335.o79DZU5a018104@floodgap.com> <4C600803.8040407@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <20100809151711.N21499@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 9 Aug 2010, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > Besides what looks like a really cheap looking gold paint spray job, is > there anyone truly unique about the unit? Does it have the signatures > of the engineers in it or anything that shows it to be anything more > then a C64 with some spray paint? Tony Cole (with the Cray parts) used to peddle generic clones (V.I.P.C.) He assembled a machine with the best of all of the parts that he had available to him, and gold-plated the case "for RF shielding". He got an amazing amount of "free ink", including front cover pictures in magazines, that more than made up for the extravagant cost. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cclist at sydex.com Mon Aug 9 17:31:38 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2010 15:31:38 -0700 Subject: The gold C64 on ebay?? In-Reply-To: <20100809151711.N21499@shell.lmi.net> References: <201008091335.o79DZU5a018104@floodgap.com>, <4C600803.8040407@atarimuseum.com>, <20100809151711.N21499@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4C601F5A.15420.1872FEB@cclist.sydex.com> On 9 Aug 2010 at 15:20, Fred Cisin wrote: > He got an amazing amount of "free ink", including front cover pictures > in magazines, that more than made up for the extravagant cost. I'd like to see one bronzed like a pair of baby shoes. --Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Aug 9 17:35:24 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2010 15:35:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The gold C64 on ebay?? In-Reply-To: <4C601F5A.15420.1872FEB@cclist.sydex.com> References: <201008091335.o79DZU5a018104@floodgap.com>, <4C600803.8040407@atarimuseum.com>, <20100809151711.N21499@shell.lmi.net> <4C601F5A.15420.1872FEB@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20100809153448.A21499@shell.lmi.net> > > He got an amazing amount of "free ink", including front cover pictures > > in magazines, that more than made up for the extravagant cost. On Mon, 9 Aug 2010, Chuck Guzis wrote: > I'd like to see one bronzed like a pair of baby shoes. That would be nice, but it would not attract the media like GOLD. From cclist at sydex.com Mon Aug 9 18:07:29 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2010 16:07:29 -0700 Subject: The gold C64 on ebay?? In-Reply-To: <20100809153448.A21499@shell.lmi.net> References: <201008091335.o79DZU5a018104@floodgap.com>, <4C601F5A.15420.1872FEB@cclist.sydex.com>, <20100809153448.A21499@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4C6027C1.9084.1A80205@cclist.sydex.com> On 9 Aug 2010 at 15:35, Fred Cisin wrote: > That would be nice, but it would not attract the media like GOLD. The sad fact is that most of the media couldn't tell the difference between real gold and PVD titanium nitride. --Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Aug 9 18:48:10 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2010 16:48:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: GET LAMP is here In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20100809163517.M21499@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 9 Aug 2010, Tony Duell wrote: > I don't see why a comment of the form 'It's a documentary abotu the > heistory of text adventures, for more information see ' is impossible. I agree. I often need to read several messages further on in a thread to figure out what is being talked about. "XYZZY" or "PLUGH" would be more recognizable. But, like many puzzles in Colossal Cave, it's obvious AFTER you know it, but not before. > follow such a URL involves almost as much work as you getting to see one > of my workshop notebooks. And I want to know if that effort is worthwhile. If we could scan the entire existing collection, then the effort probably would be worthwhile. I'm on dial-up right now. A URL with no explanation just seems rather inconsiderate. Oh, well. But, it's not just here. The college adminiatrators tend to send a 4 line paragraph as a MICROS~1 WEIRD attachment with no explanation other than "FYI" or "read the attachment". Meanwhile, the "Help Desk" sends out several announcements per week saying, "Please stop opening attachments that come with email, and please stop replying to messages that ask what your password is!" -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From ragooman at gmail.com Mon Aug 9 19:00:27 2010 From: ragooman at gmail.com (Dan Roganti) Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2010 20:00:27 -0400 Subject: GET LAMP is here In-Reply-To: <20100809163517.M21499@shell.lmi.net> References: <20100809163517.M21499@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: why can't we all just get...Lamp ? ;) -- --http://www.vintagecomputer.net/ragooman/ From ian_primus at yahoo.com Mon Aug 9 19:42:16 2010 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2010 17:42:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: EPROM programming (27c160's) Message-ID: <992230.97947.qm@web52604.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Well, I am stumped here. I have been fighting with this for a while and I can't figure it out... I use an old Needham's PB-10 EPROM programmer. Best device programmer ever, as far as I'm concerned. It's fast, reliable, and the software is so nice and easy to use. Only problem - it's old, and doesn't support 16 bit devices. I really need to be able to program 27c160 and 27c322 devices. So, I built an adapter. I bought a 16bit adapter intended for those cheap and nasty Willem programmers. I made some minor modifications to use it with my Needhams, and added toggle switches for the upper address lines. Now, I can program larger devices in chunks. This worked perfectly for the couple of chips I had at the time - two 27c160's and two 27c800's. So, I bought more chips. 27c160's and 27c322's. The 27c322's work flawlessly. I can program them in four passes, the programmer thinks it's programming a 27c080. But 27c160s... I am having horrible luck with them. A couple out of the batch programmed. The rest did not. I was able to fill them with zeroes, but couldn't program data - it kept erroring out at various stages. Tried erasing/reburning, same thing. Finally got fed up and bought another batch from a different seller, assuming I just had some bad ones. Nope. SAME problem. I noticed a pattern: On chips with a date code before about 2000, the die is larger, and none of these want to program. On chips with a date code after 2000, the die is smaller, and some of them program perfectly, others get most of the way through before erroring out. In all cases, I'm working with ST brand chips - I haven't found any other manufacturer available. So, carefully reading the datasheet, I notice that the 27c160 wants a program pulse of 50us. The chip that the programmer thinks it's programming, a 27c040, uses a programming pulse of 100ns. The programming waveforms between a 27c160 and a 27c040 look the same to me, besides that. But it would seem that my problems lie with the waveform being incorrect, and newer chips being less picky about it than the older chips of the same part number. Now, I'm stumped. I *really* want to make this programmer program these chips. It does everything else properly, including program 27c322's with this adapter. Now, I know the adapter is wired correctly, because I have programmed newer rev 27c160's properly, and they have worked perfectly in their intended purpose. The adapter is wired up such that in 27c322 mode, the programmer is used as if it were a 27c080, and in 27c160 mode the programmer is used as if it were a 27c040. I did it this way due to the pinouts of the devices and the required programming algorithms. Basically, I am wondering if any of our resident gurus have seen behavior like this with EPROMs, and if there may be anything I can do to shorten pulses, buffer, or something to get this to program... or, if anyone just *happens* to have the source code to the EMP software laying around somewhere... Yeah, I know, long shot. Failing that, does anyone have a suggestion of an EPROM programmer that I can buy that will program 27c160's. Preferably something that can be operated from DOS over a parallel or serial port, or better yet, an ISA card. -Ian From dkelvey at hotmail.com Mon Aug 9 20:39:10 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2010 18:39:10 -0700 Subject: SparcBook Tadpole In-Reply-To: <992230.97947.qm@web52604.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <992230.97947.qm@web52604.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi I just got a old SparcBook Tadpole. I checked on the web and all they have is info about newer models ( like G3 and G3S ). This one is old. Weighs a ton. and has a small LCD screen. The batteries have failed and they look like they are most likely NiCads. The pack says 12V and it has 12 cells. I'd think that NiMetalHydride would have fewer cells. It needs a little internal cleaning but boots without the battery. The next problem is that I don't have the password. I'm wondering if there is a way to clear the password files from openboot so that I can log on as root? Dwight From legalize at xmission.com Mon Aug 9 21:37:45 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2010 20:37:45 -0600 Subject: GET LAMP is here In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 09 Aug 2010 20:00:27 -0400. Message-ID: get flame ok flame duell The flames engulf the poor adventurer and leave him writhing in agony as his crispy torso falls to a heap on the ground. You are at the door to the SAGE command center. There is a corpse here. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Aug 9 21:51:24 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2010 22:51:24 -0400 Subject: SparcBook Tadpole In-Reply-To: References: <992230.97947.qm@web52604.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4C60BEAC.5080609@neurotica.com> On 8/9/10 9:39 PM, dwight elvey wrote: > I just got a old SparcBook Tadpole. That would be "Tadpole SparcBook". =) Nice score! I used a 3GS for years, back when they were new. Good, solid, fast machines with nice bright displays. > I checked on the web and all they have is info > about newer models ( like G3 and G3S ). The 3G and 3GS are basically SPARCstation-5s in laptop form-factors, if memory serves. Sun4m architecture. If yours predates those, it'll be a SPARCstation-1/1+/2 processor, which is sun4c architecture. Both are 32-bit. > This one is old. Weighs a ton. and has a small LCD > screen. > The batteries have failed and they look like they are > most likely NiCads. The pack says 12V and it has 12 > cells. I'd think that NiMetalHydride would have fewer > cells. Both NiCd and NiMH chemistries have nominal cell voltages of 1.2V. > It needs a little internal cleaning but boots without > the battery. > The next problem is that I don't have the password. > I'm wondering if there is a way to clear the password > files from openboot so that I can log on as root? What OS is it booting? A lot of what we do will be determined by that. It's likely SunOS 4.x, probably 4.1.x. Please find out for sure. Then...If you can get to an OpenBoot prompt, you can type "boot -s" to boot into single-user mode. That should get you straight to a root shell if it's running the earlier BSD-based SunOS 4.x. Let me know when/if you can get that far, then I'll help you through getting rid of the root password. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mdavidson1963 at gmail.com Mon Aug 9 21:51:37 2010 From: mdavidson1963 at gmail.com (Mark Davidson) Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2010 19:51:37 -0700 Subject: New acquisition... Message-ID: All the boxes finally arrived (and I still have to go through everything), but I am the proud owner of an Epson QX-10... with original manuals, newsletters from a users group and a nice collection of software... CP/M, Valdocs 2, Valdocs 3, dBase II, PeachText, Uniform and a bunch of other diskettes (easily 7 or 8 of the 10-disk holders). I'll post pictures and more info as I go through the boxes, but this is quite exciting! Mark From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Aug 9 21:58:06 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2010 22:58:06 -0400 Subject: New acquisition... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C60C03E.6070507@neurotica.com> On 8/9/10 10:51 PM, Mark Davidson wrote: > All the boxes finally arrived (and I still have to go through > everything), but I am the proud owner of an Epson QX-10... with > original manuals, newsletters from a users group and a nice collection > of software... CP/M, Valdocs 2, Valdocs 3, dBase II, PeachText, > Uniform and a bunch of other diskettes (easily 7 or 8 of the 10-disk > holders). > > I'll post pictures and more info as I go through the boxes, but this > is quite exciting! Neat! Good score! I always thought Valdocs was good stuff, and wondered why it never made it farther than it did. Make it quick with the pics! :) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From dkelvey at hotmail.com Mon Aug 9 23:36:48 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2010 21:36:48 -0700 Subject: SparcBook Tadpole In-Reply-To: <4C60BEAC.5080609@neurotica.com> References: <992230.97947.qm@web52604.mail.re2.yahoo.com>, , <4C60BEAC.5080609@neurotica.com> Message-ID: > From: mcguire at neurotica.com > > On 8/9/10 9:39 PM, dwight elvey wrote: > > I just got a old SparcBook Tadpole. > > That would be "Tadpole SparcBook". =) Nice score! I used a 3GS for > years, back when they were new. Good, solid, fast machines with nice > bright displays. > > > I checked on the web and all they have is info > > about newer models ( like G3 and G3S ). > > The 3G and 3GS are basically SPARCstation-5s in laptop form-factors, > if memory serves. Sun4m architecture. If yours predates those, it'll > be a SPARCstation-1/1+/2 processor, which is sun4c architecture. Both > are 32-bit. > > > This one is old. Weighs a ton. and has a small LCD > > screen. > > The batteries have failed and they look like they are > > most likely NiCads. The pack says 12V and it has 12 > > cells. I'd think that NiMetalHydride would have fewer > > cells. > > Both NiCd and NiMH chemistries have nominal cell voltages of 1.2V. > > > It needs a little internal cleaning but boots without > > the battery. > > The next problem is that I don't have the password. > > I'm wondering if there is a way to clear the password > > files from openboot so that I can log on as root? > > What OS is it booting? A lot of what we do will be determined by > that. It's likely SunOS 4.x, probably 4.1.x. Please find out for sure. There is a CD ROM with it with Solaris 1.0.1. I 'm not sure if that is what is in it though. I'll have to check. It doesn't have a CD ROM drive or floppy but does have one of those Sun connectors on the back that could go to a drive. > > Then...If you can get to an OpenBoot prompt, you can type "boot -s" to > boot into single-user mode. That should get you straight to a root > shell if it's running the earlier BSD-based SunOS 4.x. Let me know > when/if you can get that far, then I'll help you through getting rid of > the root password. I think I can get OpenBoot with just the pause-A as described on the web pages. It says it is a model s1. It doesn't look like any of the 3Gs I've seen on the web. It is older LCD technology. About 10 years old. Maybe from around the time of a Sparc5 or so. I'm not a Unix heavy so I've no idea what to do once I boot to root?? Can I use passwrd or some such to reset the password? I guess I'll have to learn a little. I don't want to power it up too much with battery crystals floating around in it. It has a flakey keyboard but I hope it just needs a little cleaning. It looks like carbon button type but I'll have to see when I open it up. Dwight From mdavidson1963 at gmail.com Tue Aug 10 00:10:40 2010 From: mdavidson1963 at gmail.com (Mark Davidson) Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2010 22:10:40 -0700 Subject: New acquisition... In-Reply-To: <4C60C03E.6070507@neurotica.com> References: <4C60C03E.6070507@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Aug 9, 2010 at 7:58 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 8/9/10 10:51 PM, Mark Davidson wrote: >> All the boxes finally arrived (and I still have to go through >> everything), but I am the proud owner of an Epson QX-10... with >> original manuals, newsletters from a users group and a nice collection >> of software... CP/M, Valdocs 2, Valdocs 3, dBase II, PeachText, >> Uniform and a bunch of other diskettes (easily 7 or 8 of the 10-disk >> holders). >> >> I'll post pictures and more info as I go through the boxes, but this >> is quite exciting! > > ?Neat! ?Good score! ?I always thought Valdocs was good stuff, and > wondered why it never made it farther than it did. ?Make it quick with > the pics! :) It will take me a few days, but I'll get it done... Mark From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Aug 10 00:25:44 2010 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2010 23:25:44 -0600 Subject: GET LAMP is here In-Reply-To: <20100809163517.M21499@shell.lmi.net> References: <20100809163517.M21499@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4C60E2D8.4040301@jetnet.ab.ca> Fred Cisin wrote: > I agree. I often need to read several messages further on in a thread to > figure out what is being talked about. > > "XYZZY" or "PLUGH" would be more recognizable. But, like many puzzles in > Colossal Cave, it's obvious AFTER you know it, but not before. Well I got "THE LAMP". Now to find the cave... and buy the proper 9 pin null modem cable if they still make them. I can't keep stealing from the PC here. I am just finding playing ADVENTURE on the PDP-8 (SBC6120) with a IDE drive just playable for a text game. Did most of the people play ADVENTURE on a classic machine or wait for PC version or clone of the game. I remember playing a similar game on the COCO II but I think it was from Cassette rather than mini-floppy. > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com > Ben. From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Tue Aug 10 00:27:28 2010 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2010 00:27:28 -0500 Subject: Iomega Bernoulli Box 20+20 (A220H) In-Reply-To: <4C5D7B36.29751.2067603@cclist.sydex.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20100701171352.0ba34848@localhost>, <4C390EC0.5090003@brutman.com>, <4C5DD05D.9090906@brutman.com> <4C5D7B36.29751.2067603@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4C60E340.7090604@brutman.com> I'm really starting to regret even thinking about tinkering with these things - they are maddening. A220H (8" 20MB drive) with 10MB cartridges: - If it is SCSI then a lot was not implemented. (No ID string or version numbers for example) - 256 byte sectors - yuk. - Don't even bother with the Linux 2.6 kernel. - Can be read with an older Linux 2.2 kernel, but not written. The OS tries to query the drive to see if it is write protected and gets an invalid response back, so it assumes read only. - On a genuine XT with the original Iomega PC2B-50 controller card and original Iomega software the drive can be seen. But the drive doesn't seem to like the cartridges - they spin up when first inserted, and then spin down to an inactive state quickly after. Trying to access or format the drives gives me errors. The docs are not clear, but they hint that 10MB cartridges are read only in a 20MB drive. Bernoulli Box 2 (5.25", 20MB drive): - Definitely SCSI - the ID string shows up nicely. - 256 byte sectors - still yuk. - The Linux 2.2 machine can do raw reads and writes using dd! Ok, so at least I can prove that the thing works. With some cajoling I can partition the disk, but I can't write a filesystem for some bizarre reason. So I'm stuck with sector reads and writes. - On a genuine XT with the PC2B-50 controller card and software the device driver doesn't see the drive at all. (I accidently got the machine/card to try to boot from the drive, and it read at least a sector. So it's not hopeless.) - Under DOS on a 386 with an ASPI manager I can see the drive but can't partition the media. Everything I've tried things the capacity is 0. So, if anybody out there had an early Bernoulli Box setup, please contact me off list - I have a lot of questions. I'd just like to get to some known good working configuration and branch out from there. Things I'm interested in particular: - What SCSI adapter were you using? What device drivers and OS? - On the older 8" drives - are 10" carts read only, or should they be writable too? - Does anybody know of a source for 20MB cartridges for the older 8" drive? Having used 10MB cartridges that I'm not sure I can write too is kind of useless. I'm going to need therapy after this. I have thought about throwing the damned things out the window. Mike From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Aug 10 00:46:23 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2010 22:46:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: GET LAMP is here In-Reply-To: <4C60E2D8.4040301@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <20100809163517.M21499@shell.lmi.net> <4C60E2D8.4040301@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <20100809223554.N21499@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 9 Aug 2010, Ben wrote: > Well I got "THE LAMP". Now to find the cave... and buy the proper > 9 pin null modem cable if they still make them. I can't keep stealing > from the PC here. > I am just finding playing ADVENTURE on the PDP-8 (SBC6120) > with a IDE drive just playable for a text game. Did most of the > people play ADVENTURE on a classic machine or wait for PC version > or clone of the game. I remember playing a similar game on the COCO II > but I think it was from Cassette rather than mini-floppy. Well, I am far from an expert. I played it a few times on terminals, with no real idea of what (or WHO) was at the other end of the connection. (Isn't that the "reverse Turing Test"? where you see whether a human can convince the party at the other end of the line that it is a machine?) Then MICROS~1 put out a licensed version of Crowther and Wood's Adventure, on TRS80 diskette. It was copy-protected, and some people literally wore through some tracks of the disk (such as at the 2" slit, or at the snake, or at one of the mazes) Later, Scott Adams created his own version of the same thing, and came out with dozens? of different games with the same program. He also tried to get Randy Cook to finish VTOS (TRS-DOS) 4.0 Getting Randy Cook to finish ANY project was extremely difficult. When you get REALLY stuck, speak up and we'll sell you hints. From cclist at sydex.com Tue Aug 10 00:48:13 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2010 22:48:13 -0700 Subject: GET LAMP is here In-Reply-To: <4C60E2D8.4040301@jetnet.ab.ca> References: , <20100809163517.M21499@shell.lmi.net>, <4C60E2D8.4040301@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4C6085AD.18681.316E52D@cclist.sydex.com> On 9 Aug 2010 at 23:25, Ben wrote: > Well I got "THE LAMP". Now to find the cave... and buy the proper 9 > pin null modem cable if they still make them. I can't keep stealing > from the PC here. I am just finding playing ADVENTURE on the PDP-8 > (SBC6120) with a IDE drive just playable for a text game. Did most of > the people play ADVENTURE on a classic machine or wait for PC version > or clone of the game. I remember playing a similar game on the COCO II > but I think it was from Cassette rather than mini-floppy. You mean other than playing it on big iron? Heck, pretty early on, there was a CP/M version of it--I've got it here on a floppy with MP/M on it (a good multi-terminal demo). Wonder if Chess 3.0 will run on a PDP-8? --Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Aug 10 01:01:07 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2010 02:01:07 -0400 Subject: Iomega Bernoulli Box 20+20 (A220H) In-Reply-To: <4C60E340.7090604@brutman.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20100701171352.0ba34848@localhost>, <4C390EC0.5090003@brutman.com>, <4C5DD05D.9090906@brutman.com> <4C5D7B36.29751.2067603@cclist.sydex.com> <4C60E340.7090604@brutman.com> Message-ID: <4C60EB23.6000204@neurotica.com> On 8/10/10 1:27 AM, Michael B. Brutman wrote: > Things I'm interested in particular: > > - What SCSI adapter were you using? What device drivers and OS? Adaptec 1542C. I don't recall which drivers, this was ~1991 or so. I'm almost thinking there weren't any drivers (the 1542C had an onboard BIOS ROM) but I seem to recall having a special formatting program. (this was with a 44MB drive) The OS in use was DOS, probably v3.3. > - On the older 8" drives - are 10" carts read only, or should they be > writable too? Digging in very dusty memory here; I used quite a few of these. I'm kinda sad that I don't have any left, but I've not touched them since about 1991. I used the 10MB and 20MB 8" drives at home, and 5.25" 44MB drives at work around that time, both under DOS. Distant memories suggest that the 10MB disks are read-only in 20MB drives but I'm not positive. At home I had an Iomega controller board for the 8" drives, PC2-something. > - Does anybody know of a source for 20MB cartridges for the older 8" > drive? Having used 10MB cartridges that I'm not sure I can write too is > kind of useless. ...eBay...not hard to find.. > I'm going to need therapy after this. I have thought about throwing the > damned things out the window. ;) I actually had really good luck with them. I had dozens of disks, but I think I only had one or two of the 8" disks fail, and I've never seen a 44MB disk fail. They're surprisingly reliable. Oh wait, I DO have one 8" subsystem left, it's a dual 20MB subsystem on a PDP-11 in a Kevex spectrometer for my SEM. I've not actually tried to fire it up, it's in storage so I can't look at it, but I know I still have it. Someday, when there's time.. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Aug 10 00:59:47 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2010 22:59:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Iomega Bernoulli Box 20+20 (A220H) In-Reply-To: <4C60E340.7090604@brutman.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20100701171352.0ba34848@localhost>, <4C390EC0.5090003@brutman.com>, <4C5DD05D.9090906@brutman.com> <4C5D7B36.29751.2067603@cclist.sydex.com> <4C60E340.7090604@brutman.com> Message-ID: <20100809224823.E21499@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 10 Aug 2010, Michael B. Brutman wrote: > I'm going to need therapy after this. I have thought about throwing the > damned things out the window. If you had complete access to Iomega "technical support", you would now be ready to defenestrate them, also. IIRC, there was a class action lawsuit! For many years, it was "impossible" to reach a human being with ANY question (including basic specs) until they had money from you. I had one of their "Ditto"? tape drives, and wanted to know whether it could use the new Verbatim extra length cartridges. It was not possible to get an answer! "Punch in your credit card number. If the problem is determined to be a defective product, then your charges will be reversed in a few months." Ended up confronting one of their engineers at Comdex, resulting in getting a copy of "the new version of the software", and the drive never worked again. But the dog trainers loved having a free source of clickers! I sold the drive for $1 ar Foothill, but had to throw in tapes with it. Think "almost" SCSI, NOT SCSI. At least some were read-only of the previous media - I don't remember whether that was 10 V 20 or some other transition. They came out with some exciting products, but reliability went steadily downhill. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Aug 10 01:05:07 2010 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2010 00:05:07 -0600 Subject: GET LAMP is here In-Reply-To: <20100809223554.N21499@shell.lmi.net> References: <20100809163517.M21499@shell.lmi.net> <4C60E2D8.4040301@jetnet.ab.ca> <20100809223554.N21499@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4C60EC13.8060707@jetnet.ab.ca> Fred Cisin wrote: > On Mon, 9 Aug 2010, Ben wrote: Later, Scott Adams created his own version of the same thing, and came out > with dozens? of different games with the same program. > He also tried to get Randy Cook to finish VTOS (TRS-DOS) 4.0 > Getting Randy Cook to finish ANY project was extremely difficult. > > > When you get REALLY stuck, speak up and we'll sell you hints. While everybody is getting $COIN$ you'll be getting the $DOLLARS$. Ben. PS. I wish they kept hours in the PDP-8 version. 12 am is not the time be playing ADVENTURE... Reading email is another story. :) From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Aug 10 01:09:12 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2010 23:09:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Iomega Bernoulli Box 20+20 (A220H) In-Reply-To: <4C60EB23.6000204@neurotica.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20100701171352.0ba34848@localhost>, <4C390EC0.5090003@brutman.com>, <4C5DD05D.9090906@brutman.com> <4C5D7B36.29751.2067603@cclist.sydex.com> <4C60E340.7090604@brutman.com> <4C60EB23.6000204@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20100809230420.I21499@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 10 Aug 2010, Dave McGuire wrote: > (this was with a 44MB drive) The OS in use was DOS, probably v3.3. PC-DOS 3.30 and MS-DOS 3.30 couldn't believe that a drive could be over 32M. But, they could be tricked into thinking the drive was a network device, instead of a drive with MSCDEX or equivalent (from DOS 3.10 on, with mostly undocumented "network defirector"). MS-DOS 3.31 and PC-DOS 4.00 could comptrehend drives larger than 32M. IIRC, Iomega had some squirelly software to use on older DOS. From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Aug 10 01:13:30 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2010 02:13:30 -0400 Subject: Iomega Bernoulli Box 20+20 (A220H) In-Reply-To: <20100809230420.I21499@shell.lmi.net> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20100701171352.0ba34848@localhost>, <4C390EC0.5090003@brutman.com>, <4C5DD05D.9090906@brutman.com> <4C5D7B36.29751.2067603@cclist.sydex.com> <4C60E340.7090604@brutman.com> <4C60EB23.6000204@neurotica.com> <20100809230420.I21499@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4C60EE0A.7070308@neurotica.com> On 8/10/10 2:09 AM, Fred Cisin wrote: >> (this was with a 44MB drive) The OS in use was DOS, probably v3.3. > > PC-DOS 3.30 and MS-DOS 3.30 couldn't believe that a drive could be over > 32M. But, they could be tricked into thinking the drive was a network > device, instead of a drive with MSCDEX or equivalent (from DOS 3.10 on, > with mostly undocumented "network defirector"). > MS-DOS 3.31 and PC-DOS 4.00 could comptrehend drives larger than 32M. Yes, the 44MB disks were all partitioned as ~32MB and ~10-11MB and showed up as two drives. > IIRC, Iomega had some squirelly software to use on older DOS. I seem to recall having heard about that, but I don't think we ever used it. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cclist at sydex.com Tue Aug 10 01:19:24 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2010 23:19:24 -0700 Subject: Iomega Bernoulli Box 20+20 (A220H) In-Reply-To: <20100809224823.E21499@shell.lmi.net> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20100701171352.0ba34848@localhost>, <4C60E340.7090604@brutman.com>, <20100809224823.E21499@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4C608CFC.31160.33372FD@cclist.sydex.com> On 9 Aug 2010 at 22:59, Fred Cisin wrote: > If you had complete access to Iomega "technical support", you would > now be ready to defenestrate them, also. IIRC, there was a class > action lawsuit! For many years, it was "impossible" to reach a human > being with ANY question (including basic specs) until they had money > from you. Hmmm, I never had any problems with Iomega tech support. They even gave me a set of drives with technical documentation free gratis and followed up with a couple of calls to see how I was getting on. It probably helped that I had the IRS for a customer at the time. Nothing like support from techs with high-level marketing types breathing down their necks. > Think "almost" SCSI, NOT SCSI. > At least some were read-only of the previous media - I don't remember > whether that was 10 V 20 or some other transition. I DID say "SCSI-ish". Later drives got better with conformity to SCSI-2 standards. To be fair, in the early days of SCSI, there was "Apple SCSI" and everyone else. --Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Aug 10 01:38:27 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2010 02:38:27 -0400 Subject: SparcBook Tadpole In-Reply-To: References: <992230.97947.qm@web52604.mail.re2.yahoo.com>, , <4C60BEAC.5080609@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4C60F3E3.5020508@neurotica.com> On 8/10/10 12:36 AM, dwight elvey wrote: >> What OS is it booting? A lot of what we do will be determined by >> that. It's likely SunOS 4.x, probably 4.1.x. Please find out for sure. > > There is a CD ROM with it with Solaris 1.0.1. I 'm not sure if that > is what is in it though. I'll have to check. It doesn't have a CD ROM drive > or floppy but does have one of those Sun connectors on the back > that could go to a drive. Is it a standard 50-pin SCSI-2 connector? Solaris 1.0.1 is SunOS 4.1.2. The last of that series is 4.1.4_U1. This is BSD-based SunOS. >> Then...If you can get to an OpenBoot prompt, you can type "boot -s" to >> boot into single-user mode. That should get you straight to a root >> shell if it's running the earlier BSD-based SunOS 4.x. Let me know >> when/if you can get that far, then I'll help you through getting rid of >> the root password. > > I think I can get OpenBoot with just the pause-A as described on the > web pages. Yes, that's pretty standard interrupt key sequence for Sun machines. On a Sun keyboard, it would be "Stop" or "L1" (upper left key) plus "A". The standard OpenBoot prompt is "ok ". > It says it is a model s1. It doesn't look like any of the 3Gs I've seen > on the web. It is older LCD technology. About 10 years old. Maybe > from around the time of a Sparc5 or so. I was using a 3GS (SPARCstation-5) in probably 1998 or so. The S1...Hmm, there's something weird about the S1/S2 machines but I don't recall what, and I don't recall where they fell in the line. I'll see if I can jog my memory a bit. > I'm not a Unix heavy so I've no idea what to do once I boot to > root?? Can I use passwrd or some such to reset the password? > I guess I'll have to learn a little. You can use the "passwd" command to reset the root password, or you can edit /etc/passwd directly and zero out the password for root. It's the second colon-delimited field and it should be thirteen characters wide. If you go that route, I can tell you what you'll need to do with the "vi" editor in case nothing easier is installed. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From dkelvey at hotmail.com Tue Aug 10 08:37:57 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2010 06:37:57 -0700 Subject: SparcBook Tadpole In-Reply-To: <4C60F3E3.5020508@neurotica.com> References: <992230.97947.qm@web52604.mail.re2.yahoo.com>, , , , <4C60BEAC.5080609@neurotica.com>, , <4C60F3E3.5020508@neurotica.com> Message-ID: > From: mcguire at neurotica.com ---snip--- > > > > There is a CD ROM with it with Solaris 1.0.1. I 'm not sure if that > > is what is in it though. I'll have to check. It doesn't have a CD ROM drive > > or floppy but does have one of those Sun connectors on the back > > that could go to a drive. > > Is it a standard 50-pin SCSI-2 connector? Yes, I think thats it. Small connector. I'll count the pins today. > > Solaris 1.0.1 is SunOS 4.1.2. The last of that series is 4.1.4_U1. > This is BSD-based SunOS. Sounds good. > ---snip--- > > > I'm not a Unix heavy so I've no idea what to do once I boot to > > root?? Can I use passwrd or some such to reset the password? > > I guess I'll have to learn a little. > > You can use the "passwd" command to reset the root password, or you > can edit /etc/passwd directly and zero out the password for root. It's > the second colon-delimited field and it should be thirteen characters > wide. If you go that route, I can tell you what you'll need to do with > the "vi" editor in case nothing easier is installed. > I mostly use emacs at work ( just used to the keyboard macros and such ) but I can make up a cheat sheet for vi. Many of the others are more familiar with vi than I am, not having grown up in the UNIX world. I'll just do a man on vi to get the important commands. like save and exit. I've used vi a couple times but just not that familiar with it. Dwight From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Tue Aug 10 08:48:32 2010 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2010 08:48:32 -0500 Subject: Iomega Bernoulli Box 20+20 (A220H) In-Reply-To: <4C60EB23.6000204@neurotica.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20100701171352.0ba34848@localhost>, <4C390EC0.5090003@brutman.com>, <4C5DD05D.9090906@brutman.com> <4C5D7B36.29751.2067603@cclist.sydex.com> <4C60E340.7090604@brutman.com> <4C60EB23.6000204@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4C6158B0.9070804@brutman.com> Dave McGuire wrote: > On 8/10/10 1:27 AM, Michael B. Brutman wrote: >> Things I'm interested in particular: >> >> - What SCSI adapter were you using? What device drivers and OS? > > Adaptec 1542C. I don't recall which drivers, this was ~1991 or so. > I'm almost thinking there weren't any drivers (the 1542C had an onboard > BIOS ROM) but I seem to recall having a special formatting program. > (this was with a 44MB drive) The OS in use was DOS, probably v3.3. I'm using the Adaptec ASPI utilities, but not on an Adaptec card. I'll fix that tonight. (I have a 1542CF that I can put in the machine, although I hate changing the config on my machines.) >> - On the older 8" drives - are 10" carts read only, or should they be >> writable too? > > Digging in very dusty memory here; I used quite a few of these. I'm > kinda sad that I don't have any left, but I've not touched them since > about 1991. I used the 10MB and 20MB 8" drives at home, and 5.25" 44MB > drives at work around that time, both under DOS. Distant memories > suggest that the 10MB disks are read-only in 20MB drives but I'm not > positive. At home I had an Iomega controller board for the 8" drives, > PC2-something. The Iomega controller is a PC2B-50. (There is a version without a boot ROM too.) I have two samples of these, so I'm ok there. >> - Does anybody know of a source for 20MB cartridges for the older 8" >> drive? Having used 10MB cartridges that I'm not sure I can write too is >> kind of useless. > > ...eBay...not hard to find.. Point me at some off list. I've been looking for over two months. I've found 10MB carts (bought the only 5 that were there), an original manual for the 10MB 8" units with software, and a controller card. But the 20MB 8" disks haven't been there, unless I'm doing something very wrong. >> I'm going to need therapy after this. I have thought about throwing the >> damned things out the window. > > ;) > > I actually had really good luck with them. I had dozens of disks, but > I think I only had one or two of the 8" disks fail, and I've never seen > a 44MB disk fail. They're surprisingly reliable. I think the build quality and the technology were great for the time, and that's why I want to get one working. This is the kind of thing that was 'high end' back when I was a PC user, and the Bernoulli boxes were legendary for being tough and weird. So I'm really motivated to get one of these working. But wow, there just isn't a lot of information out there - this stuff is dangerously close to falling into the bit bucket. > Oh wait, I DO have one 8" subsystem left, it's a dual 20MB subsystem > on a PDP-11 in a Kevex spectrometer for my SEM. I've not actually tried > to fire it up, it's in storage so I can't look at it, but I know I still > have it. Someday, when there's time.. > > -Dave > Mike From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Tue Aug 10 09:34:43 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2010 11:34:43 -0300 Subject: EPROM programming (27c160's) References: <992230.97947.qm@web52604.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <01e101cb3899$66d24880$9201a8c0@portajara> > I use an old Needham's PB-10 EPROM programmer. Best device programmer > ever, as far as I'm concerned. It's fast, reliable, and the software is so > nice and easy to use. Only problem - it's old, and doesn't support 16 bit > devices. I really need to be able to program 27c160 and 27c322 devices. I had one, and it was excellent...15 years ago :) > So, I built an adapter. I bought a 16bit adapter intended for those cheap > and nasty Willem programmers. I made some minor modifications to use it > with my Needhams, and added toggle switches for the upper address lines. > Now, I can program larger devices in chunks. This worked perfectly for the > couple of chips I had at the time - two 27c160's and two 27c800's. IF the program algorythm (wow, I forgot how to spell it!) is right for the bigger devices! :oO > On chips with a date code before about 2000, the die is larger, and none > of these want to program. On chips with a date code after 2000, the die is > smaller, and some of them program perfectly, others get most of the way > through before erroring out. Had the same problem here in Brazil. To the point I had to specificaly ask the supplier the '160 with "4 squares" (the smaller die is divided in 4, the bigger in 6). This is **very common** to happen if you don't have a GOOD programmer. The only programmer that worked was a Beeprog+ I had access. Now I use a Wellon VP-280 (china!) and it works with both kinds of memory, like the beeprog. > Now, I'm stumped. I *really* want to make this programmer program these > chips. It does everything else properly, including Redo the DOS program? :) > Basically, I am wondering if any of our resident gurus have seen behavior > like this with EPROMs, and if there may be anything I can do to shorten > pulses, buffer, or something to get this to program... or, if anyone just > *happens* to have the source code to the EMP software laying around > somewhere... I believe it will be cheaper to buy a new/good programmer. VP280 costs less than a hundred bucks and it outperforms anything you can think of in a PB-10. > Failing that, does anyone have a suggestion of an EPROM programmer that I > can buy that will program 27c160's. Preferably something that can be > operated from DOS over a parallel or serial port, or better yet, an ISA > card. :o\ Though question! :o) Greetings from Brazil, Alexandre Souza, PU1BZZ From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Tue Aug 10 09:38:44 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2010 11:38:44 -0300 Subject: GET LAMP is here References: <20100809163517.M21499@shell.lmi.net><4C60E2D8.4040301@jetnet.ab.ca> <20100809223554.N21499@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <022a01cb389c$6fa0e4a0$9201a8c0@portajara> > I played it a few times on terminals, with no real idea of what (or WHO) > was at the other end of the connection. > (Isn't that the "reverse Turing Test"? where you see whether a human can > convince the party at the other end of the line that it is a machine?) Unrelated piece of fun info: Sunday I went to a local motel with my girlfriend (I'm hosting two ladies on my home and primitive noises may not be too comfortable for them). When we were checking out, there was a monitor on the out with your bill and...wow, it was a terminal, connected to some kind of *nix system, everything was serial-based!!! I felt myself in 1980!!! :oD Very interesting view :D From dkelvey at hotmail.com Tue Aug 10 10:12:29 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2010 08:12:29 -0700 Subject: EPROM programming (27c160's) In-Reply-To: <992230.97947.qm@web52604.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <992230.97947.qm@web52604.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > From: ian_primus at yahoo.com > Subject: EPROM programming (27c160's) > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > Well, I am stumped here. I have been fighting with this for a while and I can't figure it out... > > I use an old Needham's PB-10 EPROM programmer. Best device programmer ever, as far as I'm concerned. It's fast, reliable, and the software is so nice and easy to use. Only problem - it's old, and doesn't support 16 bit devices. I really need to be able to program 27c160 and 27c322 devices. > Hi I started to hack my PB-10 but found the bad transistor before completing. Maybe I'll finish it some time. Dwight From cclist at sydex.com Tue Aug 10 10:15:14 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2010 08:15:14 -0700 Subject: GET LAMP is here In-Reply-To: <022a01cb389c$6fa0e4a0$9201a8c0@portajara> References: , <022a01cb389c$6fa0e4a0$9201a8c0@portajara> Message-ID: <4C610A92.14148.1BDA30@cclist.sydex.com> On 10 Aug 2010 at 11:38, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > Sunday I went to a local motel with my girlfriend (I'm hosting two > ladies on my home and primitive noises may not be too comfortable for > them). When we were checking out, there was a monitor on the out with > your bill and...wow, it was a terminal, connected to some kind of *nix > system, everything was serial-based!!! I felt myself in 1980!!! I wish the public in general would follow the maxim "If it ain't broke, don't fix it!". Our landfills might not be overflowing. --Chuck From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Aug 10 10:36:17 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2010 08:36:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: GET LAMP is here In-Reply-To: <022a01cb389c$6fa0e4a0$9201a8c0@portajara> from Alexandre Souza - Listas at "Aug 10, 10 11:38:44 am" Message-ID: <201008101536.o7AFaHjd020910@floodgap.com> > Sunday I went to a local motel with my girlfriend (I'm hosting two > ladies on my home and primitive noises may not be too comfortable for them). ... > When we were checking out, there was a monitor on the out with your bill > and...wow, it was a terminal, connected to some kind of *nix system, > everything was serial-based!!! I felt myself in 1980!!! :oD > Very interesting view :D Up until a few years ago Kaiser Permanente was still using 3270 terminals. A couple weeks ago, I went to a Pizza Hut in Lake Havasu City and on my way out noticed that the terminal at the cashier was showing a Linux login prompt. It took a lot of willpower not to surreptitously try to login as root. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- TRUE HEADLINE: Morning-After Pill Decision Delayed ------------------------- From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Aug 10 10:37:38 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2010 11:37:38 -0400 Subject: GET LAMP is here In-Reply-To: <022a01cb389c$6fa0e4a0$9201a8c0@portajara> References: <20100809163517.M21499@shell.lmi.net> <4C60E2D8.4040301@jetnet.ab.ca> <20100809223554.N21499@shell.lmi.net> <022a01cb389c$6fa0e4a0$9201a8c0@portajara> Message-ID: > ? Sunday I went to a local motel with my girlfriend (I'm hosting two ladies > on my home and primitive noises may not be too comfortable for them). When > we were checking out, there was a monitor on the out with your bill > and...wow, it was a terminal, connected to some kind of *nix system, > everything was serial-based!!! I felt myself in 1980!!! :oD Wow, you were using Unix, and still managed to get laid? Oh wait, you were checking out. -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Aug 10 10:39:34 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2010 11:39:34 -0400 Subject: GET LAMP is here In-Reply-To: <201008101536.o7AFaHjd020910@floodgap.com> References: <022a01cb389c$6fa0e4a0$9201a8c0@portajara> <201008101536.o7AFaHjd020910@floodgap.com> Message-ID: > Up until a few years ago Kaiser Permanente was still using 3270 terminals. Real 3278s? They are getting very thin on the ground. -- Will From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Aug 10 10:51:56 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2010 08:51:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: GET LAMP is here In-Reply-To: from William Donzelli at "Aug 10, 10 11:39:34 am" Message-ID: <201008101551.o7AFpujL019070@floodgap.com> > > Up until a few years ago Kaiser Permanente was still using 3270 terminals. > > Real 3278s? They are getting very thin on the ground. Some, yes. Others were clones. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- MOVIE IDEA: Blazing E-mail Signatures -------------------------------------- From scanning.cc at gmail.com Tue Aug 10 11:29:06 2010 From: scanning.cc at gmail.com (alan canning) Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2010 08:29:06 -0800 Subject: M51976FP pinout? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Tony, This part is a bitch to find. I had the same results as you with the exception of the following; Abstract: .. The M51996A is equivalent to the M51976 with externally resettable OVP overvoltage protection circuit. Not much help but it is a start. Best regards, Steven On 5/29/10, Tony Duell wrote: > > I am looking for a pinout or datasheet for a chip labelled M51976FP. It > appears to be made by Mitsubishi, it's a SMPSU controller in a 20 pin > SOIC package. > > I have the data on the M51977, which is similar (I think), but some pins > are clearly different. > > Looking on datasheetarchiver and digchip didn't find anything. And a > google search (as ever) found plenty of people who sould sell me 100000 > of them, but nothing else). > > [It's uised in a PSU modile in an HP tape drive that I am working on, so > it does have som relevance to classic computers0. > > Thanks in advance for any help > > -tony > > From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Aug 10 11:31:25 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2010 12:31:25 -0400 Subject: Iomega Bernoulli Box 20+20 (A220H) In-Reply-To: <4C6158B0.9070804@brutman.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20100701171352.0ba34848@localhost>, <4C390EC0.5090003@brutman.com>, <4C5DD05D.9090906@brutman.com> <4C5D7B36.29751.2067603@cclist.sydex.com> <4C60E340.7090604@brutman.com> <4C60EB23.6000204@neurotica.com> <4C6158B0.9070804@brutman.com> Message-ID: <4C617EDD.8080106@neurotica.com> On 8/10/10 9:48 AM, Michael B. Brutman wrote: >>> - Does anybody know of a source for 20MB cartridges for the older 8" >>> drive? Having used 10MB cartridges that I'm not sure I can write too is >>> kind of useless. >> >> ...eBay...not hard to find.. > > Point me at some off list. I've been looking for over two months. I've > found 10MB carts (bought the only 5 that were there), an original manual > for the 10MB 8" units with software, and a controller card. But the > 20MB 8" disks haven't been there, unless I'm doing something very wrong. Just sent you four auction numbers off-list. >>> I'm going to need therapy after this. I have thought about throwing the >>> damned things out the window. >> >> ;) >> >> I actually had really good luck with them. I had dozens of disks, but >> I think I only had one or two of the 8" disks fail, and I've never seen >> a 44MB disk fail. They're surprisingly reliable. > > I think the build quality and the technology were great for the time, > and that's why I want to get one working. This is the kind of thing > that was 'high end' back when I was a PC user, and the Bernoulli boxes > were legendary for being tough and weird. So I'm really motivated to > get one of these working. But wow, there just isn't a lot of > information out there - this stuff is dangerously close to falling into > the bit bucket. Well send them to me if you give up! ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Tue Aug 10 12:16:19 2010 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com) Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2010 10:16:19 -0700 Subject: Iomega Bernoulli Box 20+20 (A220H) In-Reply-To: <4C617EDD.8080106@neurotica.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20100701171352.0ba34848@localhost>, <4C390EC0.5090003@brutman.com>, <4C5DD05D.9090906@brutman.com> <4C5D7B36.29751.2067603@cclist.sydex.com> <4C60E340.7090604@brutman.com> <4C60EB23.6000204@neurotica.com> <4C6158B0.9070804@brutman.com> <4C617EDD.8080106@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20100810101619.45753o01sx0vgask@webmail.brutman.com> Quoting Dave McGuire : >> Point me at some off list. I've been looking for over two months. I've >> found 10MB carts (bought the only 5 that were there), an original manual >> for the 10MB 8" units with software, and a controller card. But the >> 20MB 8" disks haven't been there, unless I'm doing something very wrong. > > Just sent you four auction numbers off-list. Grateful for the help, but all of those are the smaller 5.25" cartridges. I have those already for the newer BBox - it's the 8" BBox that I need them for. The 10MB carts prove basic operation (reading at least), but I can't do anything useful unless I can write. The 8" carts are more rectangular in shape - when they went to the 5.25" carts they started looking more like oversized 3.5" floppies, complete with a shutter mechanism. An 8" cart has no shutter mechanism - the heads get inserted through the short edge. In a sleeve you cant' see anything, so the shape is the giveaway. Mike From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Tue Aug 10 12:16:19 2010 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com) Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2010 10:16:19 -0700 Subject: Iomega Bernoulli Box 20+20 (A220H) In-Reply-To: <4C617EDD.8080106@neurotica.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20100701171352.0ba34848@localhost>, <4C390EC0.5090003@brutman.com>, <4C5DD05D.9090906@brutman.com> <4C5D7B36.29751.2067603@cclist.sydex.com> <4C60E340.7090604@brutman.com> <4C60EB23.6000204@neurotica.com> <4C6158B0.9070804@brutman.com> <4C617EDD.8080106@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20100810101619.45753o01sx0vgask@webmail.brutman.com> Quoting Dave McGuire : >> Point me at some off list. I've been looking for over two months. I've >> found 10MB carts (bought the only 5 that were there), an original manual >> for the 10MB 8" units with software, and a controller card. But the >> 20MB 8" disks haven't been there, unless I'm doing something very wrong. > > Just sent you four auction numbers off-list. Grateful for the help, but all of those are the smaller 5.25" cartridges. I have those already for the newer BBox - it's the 8" BBox that I need them for. The 10MB carts prove basic operation (reading at least), but I can't do anything useful unless I can write. The 8" carts are more rectangular in shape - when they went to the 5.25" carts they started looking more like oversized 3.5" floppies, complete with a shutter mechanism. An 8" cart has no shutter mechanism - the heads get inserted through the short edge. In a sleeve you cant' see anything, so the shape is the giveaway. Mike From legalize at xmission.com Tue Aug 10 12:18:43 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2010 11:18:43 -0600 Subject: Lot of PDP-11/84 on ebay in Boston In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 04 Aug 2010 04:17:57 +0200. Message-ID: I notice that when I view the page, ebay says it ended with "buy it now" but when I view the "completed listings" results for the seller, they're all shown with the prices in red, which indicates that noone bought the item. Now the seller has a bunch of individual PDP-11 cards listed for $75 each, so it looks like he took the cards out of the system and is now parting them out. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From dm561 at torfree.net Tue Aug 10 15:19:45 2010 From: dm561 at torfree.net (MikeS) Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2010 15:19:45 -0500 Subject: GET LAMP is here References: Message-ID: <6F9542E7505C40AEAA28C473798E07B0@vl420mt> -------------------Original Message: Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2010 16:48:10 -0700 (PDT) From: Fred Cisin Subject: Re: GET LAMP is here On Mon, 9 Aug 2010, Tony Duell wrote: > I don't see why a comment of the form 'It's a documentary abotu the > heistory of text adventures, for more information see ' is > impossible. I agree. I often need to read several messages further on in a thread to figure out what is being talked about. "XYZZY" or "PLUGH" would be more recognizable. But, like many puzzles in Colossal Cave, it's obvious AFTER you know it, but not before. > follow such a URL involves almost as much work as you getting to see one > of my workshop notebooks. And I want to know if that effort is worthwhile. If we could scan the entire existing collection, then the effort probably would be worthwhile. I'm on dial-up right now. A URL with no explanation just seems rather inconsiderate. Oh, well. But, it's not just here. The college adminiatrators tend to send a 4 line paragraph as a MICROS~1 WEIRD attachment with no explanation other than "FYI" or "read the attachment". Meanwhile, the "Help Desk" sends out several announcements per week saying, "Please stop opening attachments that come with email, and please stop replying to messages that ask what your password is!" -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com -----------------------Reply: I'm with Tony and Fred on this one: a hint of what a URL is about would be nice and show a little consideration. I'm on dial-up as well, often incurring per-minute long distance charges, and read my email off-line; if there's no clue what a link is about then I just treat it as spam no matter where it's from instead of investing time and money looking at something that probably won't interest me (especially when some sites take 3 or 4 minutes at 56K just to open the page). mike From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 10 13:19:55 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2010 19:19:55 +0100 (BST) Subject: GET LAMP is here In-Reply-To: from "Gene Buckle" at Aug 9, 10 02:14:51 pm Message-ID: > > I don't see why a comment of the form 'It's a documentary abotu the > > heistory of text adventures, for more information see ' is impossible. > > > Well frankly, if I had any idea that you'd go Old Man McClusky on me while > waving your cane in my face and raving about these damn kids, I just may You do realise that if my origianl question had been given a direct (rather than indirect) answer, this thread would not existy... > have. Unfortunately I constantly forget that you like to party like it's > 1979. Oh comne on. I am not new here, I have not changed recently... > > The point is that not all of us read e-mail on line, not all of us have a > > web browser (or more specifically a graphical web browser) on the machine > > we use to read mail (or in my case on any of my machines). Which means to > > follow such a URL involves almost as much work as you getting to see one > > of my workshop notebooks. And I want to know if that effort is worthwhile. > > > I use Alpine to read email (text only) and have been known to use Lynx > (text only browser) on occasion. Both of which are likely available if > you're using pretty much any flavor of Unix, VMS, Linux or DOS. This does not alter the 'on line' part of the problem. I do not read and reply to e-mail while connected to the net. I have a dial-up connection, and some of the messaged I reply to involve me looking things up in manuals -- in other words spending considerable time figuring out a suitable reply. So if you just give a URL, I have to dial in again ($$$) and hope that lynx will make something sensible from the site. > > Because we've pretty much already defined that I'm an asshole, it should > be added that I'm not terribly understanding of peoples' self-configured > difficulty. You could easily build a machine that does all these I assume you also can't understand why people spend many hours making a mechanical closk from scratch when a $10 quartz clock is much more accurate. Or why people learn to play a musical instrument rather than just listening to a record/tape/CD. Or why people paint pictures when there are plenty of cameras around. To be honest, it doesn't matter if you understand why people do these things. They do, and that's all there is to it. You cna't understnad why I run a classic computer (enven though this is classiccmp). I am sure there are things that you do that I wouldn't want to do myself. So what? > new-fangled and modern webby things and yet you grump at ME because you > have no way to copy & paste a url into any kind of browser. I wasn;t expecting a transcript of the documentary, or anything like that. Just a 1-line description of what 'GET LAMP' actually was. Tomake this mildly on-topic, suppose you find a PCB with an HP logo and the number 09810-66513 on it You ahve no idea what it is and ask on the list. Which is more helpful : 1) $URL 2) It's the CPU control logic/microcode PCB from an HP 98x0 calcualtor. You cna find schematics at $URL# > Yes, I like the trailing edge of computing, but you fell off of it and the > guy pushing the stone wheelbarrow behind us is going to grind you to paste > if you don't catch up. :) For $deity;s sake, this _is_ classiccmp, isn't it? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 10 13:54:58 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2010 19:54:58 +0100 (BST) Subject: New acquisition... In-Reply-To: from "Mark Davidson" at Aug 9, 10 07:51:37 pm Message-ID: > > All the boxes finally arrived (and I still have to go through > everything), but I am the proud owner of an Epson QX-10... with Nice machine. The QX10 is one of my favourite desktop CP/M machines. The video system is based round a 7220, the serial port (IIRC) uses a 7201. amd it's got those lovely 1/3 height floppy drives with linear positioners (like tiny RK05s...) One thing to be aware of. The video board cna use wither 4116s or 4164s -- 16 of either, all must be the same type. There are some obvious links to move if you upgrade the RAM (if you don't shift them, you'll ruin the 4164s by applying 12V to them!), but there are also some decoupling capacitors that _must_ be removed if you use 4164s. If not, you get ome odd corruption after the screen has scrolled a few times. Don't ask how I found this out... I think the heardware manual is on the web somewhere, so I won't have to say 'fourth bookshelf, between the CoCo3 service manaul and the HP5245 counter manaul' :-) > original manuals, newsletters from a users group and a nice collection > of software... CP/M, Valdocs 2, Valdocs 3, dBase II, PeachText, I beleive there are offiically different keyboards for CP/M and Valdocs. My QX10 came with CP/M, I have never seen Valdocs. I seem to recall it was reported as being somewhat slow, wann't it written in a TIL, not machine code? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 10 14:01:59 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2010 20:01:59 +0100 (BST) Subject: GET LAMP is here In-Reply-To: <4C60E2D8.4040301@jetnet.ab.ca> from "Ben" at Aug 9, 10 11:25:44 pm Message-ID: > > Well I got "THE LAMP". Now to find the cave... and buy the proper > 9 pin null modem cable if they still make them. I can't keep stealing DE9 connectors are sill made. Multicre cable is still made. Soldering irons are still made.... [If people are going to flame me for my choice of computers, I feel justified in postiing messages like that. Making such a cable would be triival for me, I realsie it's not trivial for everybody, but I will bet that anyone who really needs one could learn to solder well enough to make one.] > from the PC here. > I am just finding playing ADVENTURE on the PDP-8 (SBC6120) > with a IDE drive just playable for a text game. Did most of the > people play ADVENTURE on a classic machine or wait for PC version Depenmds on what you mean by 'classic machine'. I certainly played text adventures on my TRS-80s M1 and M3 and on VAXen (not my VAXen, though). There's even one for (IIRC) the HP75 handheld, and that is rather too slow to be playable. Heck, there seemes to be a text adventure for the HP41 calcualtor -- maybe that's the one that'd far too slow to be playable.... > or clone of the game. I remember playing a similar game on the COCO II > but I think it was from Cassette rather than mini-floppy. I think there were text adventues for virtually all the classic micros... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 10 14:26:16 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2010 20:26:16 +0100 (BST) Subject: M51976FP pinout? In-Reply-To: from "alan canning" at Aug 10, 10 08:29:06 am Message-ID: > > Tony, > > This part is a bitch to find. I had the same results as you with the > exception of the following; I never found anything more on it either... > > > Abstract: .. The M51996A is equivalent to the M51976 with externally > resettable OVP overvoltage protection circuit. Equivalent does not, alas, mean the smae pinout (as I disconvered when looking at some ancient dual tracking regulator ICs recently. > > > Not much help but it is a start. > > Best regards, Steven > > On 5/29/10, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > I am looking for a pinout or datasheet for a chip labelled M51976FP. It > > appears to be made by Mitsubishi, it's a SMPSU controller in a 20 pin > > SOIC package. > > > > I have the data on the M51977, which is similar (I think), but some pins > > are clearly different. I think in the end I found that hte 51977 was a lot closer than I first thought. I'd mis-traced a coupld of pins (using multimeter probles on SOIC pacakges is not easy...) I figured out enough to know that IC was not the problem anyhow... -tony From mdavidson1963 at gmail.com Tue Aug 10 14:37:11 2010 From: mdavidson1963 at gmail.com (Mark Davidson) Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2010 12:37:11 -0700 Subject: New acquisition... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Aug 10, 2010 at 11:54 AM, Tony Duell wrote: >> >> All the boxes finally arrived (and I still have to go through >> everything), but I am the proud owner of an Epson QX-10... with > > Nice machine. The QX10 is one of my favourite desktop CP/M machines. The > video system is based round a 7220, the serial port (IIRC) uses a 7201. > amd it's got those lovely 1/3 height floppy drives with linear positioners > (like tiny RK05s...) Always good to have more info... :) > One thing to be aware of. The video board cna use wither 4116s or 4164s > -- 16 of either, all must be the same type. There are some obvious links > to move if you upgrade the RAM (if you don't shift them, you'll ruin the > 4164s by applying 12V to them!), but there are also some decoupling > capacitors that _must_ be removed if you use 4164s. If not, you get ome > odd corruption after the screen has scrolled a few times. Don't ask how I > found this out... VERY good to know... thank you. > I think the heardware manual is on the web somewhere, so I won't have to > say 'fourth bookshelf, between the CoCo3 service manaul and the HP5245 > counter manaul' :-) LOL... I haven't dug through all the boxes of manuals, newsletters, etc, yet. When I post the pictures, I'll also post everything else that came with the machine in case anyone on the list needs copies. >> original manuals, newsletters from a users group and a nice collection >> of software... CP/M, Valdocs 2, Valdocs 3, dBase II, PeachText, > > I beleive there are offiically different keyboards for CP/M and Valdocs. That's my understanding as well. I haven't looked at the keyboard yet. > My QX10 came with CP/M, I have never seen Valdocs. I seem to recall it > was reported as being somewhat slow, wann't it written in a TIL, not > machine code? > > -tony My understanding is that Valdocs 2 was written in Forth, and Valdocs 3 was written in C. It's also my understanding that Valdocs 3 was slower than 2. I'm pulling all this out of memory based on reading articles about the product online, so take it with a grain of salt. The woman who had this machine used it quite a bit and was just looking for a home for it. I would have posted something about this earlier, but (not to make her sound bad) it took MONTHS to get the machine shipped. She apparently had a bunch of data on diskettes and wanted to recover what she could. I told her (and had to keep telling her) "just ship it when you can... I'm not going anywhere and I'm patient". My girlfriend laughed at that because I'm actually NOT that patient. :) But, in the end, she found a home for the machine and I have a new baby to work with. I love collecting old computers! Mark From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Aug 10 14:40:39 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2010 15:40:39 -0400 Subject: New acquisition... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C61AB37.6010609@neurotica.com> On 8/10/10 2:54 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > My QX10 came with CP/M, I have never seen Valdocs. I seem to recall it > was reported as being somewhat slow, wann't it written in a TIL, not > machine code? Early Valdocs implementations were written in Forth, I believe later implementations were done in C. Not positive about the latter. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From als at thangorodrim.de Tue Aug 10 14:59:09 2010 From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber) Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2010 21:59:09 +0200 Subject: GET LAMP is here In-Reply-To: References: <20100809163517.M21499@shell.lmi.net> <4C60E2D8.4040301@jetnet.ab.ca> <20100809223554.N21499@shell.lmi.net> <022a01cb389c$6fa0e4a0$9201a8c0@portajara> Message-ID: <20100810195908.GA365@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> On Tue, Aug 10, 2010 at 11:37:38AM -0400, William Donzelli wrote: > > ? Sunday I went to a local motel with my girlfriend (I'm hosting two ladies > > on my home and primitive noises may not be too comfortable for them). When > > we were checking out, there was a monitor on the out with your bill > > and...wow, it was a terminal, connected to some kind of *nix system, > > everything was serial-based!!! I felt myself in 1980!!! :oD > > Wow, you were using Unix, and still managed to get laid? hehe About 3 years ago I saw plenty of vt520s in the local IKEA as terminals for the staff (here == near Zurich, Switzerland). Kind regards, Alex. -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Aug 10 15:09:38 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2010 16:09:38 -0400 Subject: GET LAMP is here In-Reply-To: <20100810195908.GA365@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> References: <20100809163517.M21499@shell.lmi.net> <4C60E2D8.4040301@jetnet.ab.ca> <20100809223554.N21499@shell.lmi.net> <022a01cb389c$6fa0e4a0$9201a8c0@portajara> <20100810195908.GA365@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> Message-ID: <4C61B202.1050403@neurotica.com> On 8/10/10 3:59 PM, Alexander Schreiber wrote: >>> Sunday I went to a local motel with my girlfriend (I'm hosting two ladies >>> on my home and primitive noises may not be too comfortable for them). When >>> we were checking out, there was a monitor on the out with your bill >>> and...wow, it was a terminal, connected to some kind of *nix system, >>> everything was serial-based!!! I felt myself in 1980!!! :oD >> >> Wow, you were using Unix, and still managed to get laid? > > hehe > > About 3 years ago I saw plenty of vt520s in the local IKEA as terminals > for the staff (here == near Zurich, Switzerland). IKEA here uses very small Linux machines. And in my experience, *only* UNIX people tend to get laid, because they're the only ones with any sense of style. Windows people seem to go after really skanky women. No standards across the board, ya know. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cclist at sydex.com Tue Aug 10 15:30:31 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2010 13:30:31 -0700 Subject: New acquisition... In-Reply-To: <4C61AB37.6010609@neurotica.com> References: , <4C61AB37.6010609@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4C615477.31275.13C93B3@cclist.sydex.com> On 10 Aug 2010 at 15:40, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 8/10/10 2:54 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > > My QX10 came with CP/M, I have never seen Valdocs. I seem to recall > > it was reported as being somewhat slow, wann't it written in a TIL, > > not machine code? > > Early Valdocs implementations were written in Forth, I believe later > implementations were done in C. Not positive about the latter. I believe the Forth thing extended to their clone CP/M, called TP/M. There are some subtle differences between the two. Done by a San Franscisco outfit, with a name like "Friends-Amis"? There is (or was) a ton of information out there on the QX-10, including programmer's guides and technical/repair manuals. Apologies to Andrew Lynch, but I found the 70-page NEC 7220 manual in my QX-10 folder. If you're still interested, I can email you a copy. I'd forgotten that I put it there. --Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Aug 10 15:32:05 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2010 13:32:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: GET LAMP is here In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20100810125109.M61892@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 9 Aug 2010, Gene Buckle wrote: > Well frankly, if I had any idea that you'd go Old Man McClusky on me while > waving your cane in my face and raving about these damn kids, I just may > have. Unfortunately I constantly forget that you like to party like it's > 1979. HELL, YES!! You damn kids today have no clue how to party. Herpes was the worst incurable STD in those days. I will gladly find and give John Titor a 5100 (with APL AND BASIC) if he will just drop me off in 1979. I'll throw in a 360 for a one-way to the 1960s. That's for one-way. For round-trip, all he gets is Valtrep. Who is Old Man McClusky? Maybe he'd like to come along. > I use Alpine to read email (text only) and have been known to use Lynx > (text only browser) on occasion. Both of which are likely available if > you're using pretty much any flavor of Unix, VMS, Linux or DOS. I'm on PINE, but I have three modern browsers on this POS. At dial-up speeds, it is still annoying to have to go somewhere just to find out what it is. Click and WAIT. > Because we've pretty much already defined that I'm an asshole, S'alright, so am I > it should be added that I'm not terribly understanding of peoples' > self-configured difficulty. You could easily build a machine that does > all these new-fangled and modern webby things and yet you grump at ME > because you have no way to copy & paste a url into any kind of browser. That is s'posedly comparably easy to reading "it's a documentary about Adventure"? Besides, kids today won't play Adventure "cause it don't got pictures" > Yes, I like the trailing edge of computing, but you fell off of it and > the guy pushing the stone wheelbarrow behind us is going to grind you to > paste if you don't catch up. :) I haven't been on the bleeding edge in about 30 years. Pioneers are the ones with arrows in the back. Y'know, 1970 was kinda fun, too. FORTRAN and APL, Selectric terminals, lining up the crosshairs on the Gerber "Etch-a-sketch" and stomping on the pedal to get the modified 026 to punch two three digit numbers of the coordinates, . . . Don't worry about the guy behind us; I can still swing my cane. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Aug 10 15:36:10 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2010 16:36:10 -0400 Subject: New acquisition... In-Reply-To: <4C615477.31275.13C93B3@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4C61AB37.6010609@neurotica.com> <4C615477.31275.13C93B3@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4C61B83A.6080006@neurotica.com> On 8/10/10 4:30 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Apologies to Andrew Lynch, but I found the 70-page NEC 7220 manual in > my QX-10 folder. If you're still interested, I can email you a copy. > I'd forgotten that I put it there. I'd love a copy; I have a few 7220s here that I'd like to do something fun with eventually. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From christian_liendo at yahoo.com Tue Aug 10 15:41:27 2010 From: christian_liendo at yahoo.com (Christian Liendo) Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2010 13:41:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: A New York Town where Pinball is illegal In-Reply-To: <6F9542E7505C40AEAA28C473798E07B0@vl420mt> Message-ID: <33740.28017.qm@web113507.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> I had to post this because it talks about a venue that would be dear to many people here.. Guy puts together a vintage pinball and games museum in NY NY has old law stating pinball is illegal He will probably go out of business. http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/crime/2010/08/07/pkg.chernoff.pinball.ban.cnn? From pete at dunnington.plus.com Tue Aug 10 16:23:12 2010 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2010 22:23:12 +0100 Subject: GET LAMP is here In-Reply-To: <20100810125109.M61892@shell.lmi.net> References: <20100810125109.M61892@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4C61C340.3040902@dunnington.plus.com> On 10/08/2010 21:32, Fred Cisin wrote: > I'm on PINE, but I have three modern browsers on this POS. At dial-up > speeds, it is still annoying to have to go somewhere just to find out what > it is. Click and WAIT. I'm with Tony and Fred, and probably a lot of others, on this. I have a reasonably fast broadband line at home, and a decent browser, but really, how much effort and consideration does it take to add a single line of explanation when somebody asks? -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Aug 10 16:33:55 2010 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2010 15:33:55 -0600 Subject: GET LAMP is here In-Reply-To: <20100810125109.M61892@shell.lmi.net> References: <20100810125109.M61892@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4C61C5C3.6030904@jetnet.ab.ca> Fred Cisin wrote: > Y'know, 1970 was kinda fun, too. FORTRAN and APL, Selectric terminals, > lining up the crosshairs on the Gerber "Etch-a-sketch" and stomping on the > pedal to get the modified 026 to punch two three digit numbers of the > coordinates, . . . > > > Don't worry about the guy behind us; I can still swing my cane. > I am more worried if you hit! :) > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com > From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Aug 10 17:01:01 2010 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2010 18:01:01 -0400 Subject: A New York Town where Pinball is illegal In-Reply-To: <33740.28017.qm@web113507.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <33740.28017.qm@web113507.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4C61CC1D.8040007@gmail.com> Christian Liendo wrote: > I had to post this because it talks about a venue that would be dear to many people here.. > > Guy puts together a vintage pinball and games museum in NY > > NY has old law stating pinball is illegal > > He will probably go out of business. > > http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/crime/2010/08/07/pkg.chernoff.pinball.ban.cnn? Just down the street for me. I've been to that place. Peace... Sridhar From kevenm at reeltapetransfer.com Tue Aug 10 17:42:31 2010 From: kevenm at reeltapetransfer.com (Keven Miller) Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2010 16:42:31 -0600 Subject: HP2340AR DTC 16 References: <201007201555.o6KFtahx044463@billY.EZWIND.NET><8670261230290364122@unknownmsgid> Message-ID: <4EE81FBBD3F2489896225A4491DF3018@RANGER1> I have a couple HP2340AR DTC 16 boxes. Anyone interested in them? Keven Miller (Orem Utah 84097) Distributed Terminal Controller. Used with HP3000 computer. Allows direct connect serial terminals, and modems. From als at thangorodrim.de Tue Aug 10 17:54:33 2010 From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 00:54:33 +0200 Subject: GET LAMP is here In-Reply-To: <4C61B202.1050403@neurotica.com> References: <20100809163517.M21499@shell.lmi.net> <4C60E2D8.4040301@jetnet.ab.ca> <20100809223554.N21499@shell.lmi.net> <022a01cb389c$6fa0e4a0$9201a8c0@portajara> <20100810195908.GA365@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> <4C61B202.1050403@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20100810225432.GC365@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> On Tue, Aug 10, 2010 at 04:09:38PM -0400, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 8/10/10 3:59 PM, Alexander Schreiber wrote: > >>> Sunday I went to a local motel with my girlfriend (I'm hosting two ladies > >>> on my home and primitive noises may not be too comfortable for them). When > >>> we were checking out, there was a monitor on the out with your bill > >>> and...wow, it was a terminal, connected to some kind of *nix system, > >>> everything was serial-based!!! I felt myself in 1980!!! :oD > >> > >> Wow, you were using Unix, and still managed to get laid? > > > > hehe > > > > About 3 years ago I saw plenty of vt520s in the local IKEA as terminals > > for the staff (here == near Zurich, Switzerland). > > IKEA here uses very small Linux machines. They probably found the price of (replacement) vt520s going up a bit too much for the size of their company. And a small Linux capable box for terminal like jobs can be had _very_ cheap - the alix3d3 sells for around USD 125 including systemboard, case and powerbrick. Thats a AMD Geode 500 Mhz with 256 MB of memory, network, USB, VGA (can do 1280x1024), audio on board. Very low power draw as well, boots from CF. The case is about 15x15x3 cm, you could just stick that behind the monitor. > And in my experience, *only* UNIX people tend to get laid, because > they're the only ones with any sense of style. *ogles the wife* Well, yes, I definitely have to agree ;-) > Windows people seem to go after really skanky women. No standards > across the board, ya know. Does that surprise you? SCNR, Alex. -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison From RichA at vulcan.com Tue Aug 10 18:05:09 2010 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2010 16:05:09 -0700 Subject: GET LAMP is here In-Reply-To: References: from "Gene Buckle" at Aug 9, 10 02:14:51 pm Message-ID: From: Tony Duell Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 2010 11:20 AM >> You could easily build a machine that does all these > I assume you also can't understand why people spend many hours making a > mechanical closk from scratch when a $10 quartz clock is much more > accurate. Or why people learn to play a musical instrument rather than > just listening to a record/tape/CD. Or why people paint pictures when > there are plenty of cameras around. Tony, I won't defend the lack of description on the URL. (I didn't bother to go look until someone else said what it was about, and I'm on fast boradband.) However, I took the comment you quoted to have an intrinsic "in addition" rather than the intrinsic "instead" you saw. However, the dial-up issue trumps everything else, and I don't blame you in the least for your irritation. Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.PDPplanet.org/ http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Aug 10 18:16:44 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2010 19:16:44 -0400 Subject: A New York Town where Pinball is illegal In-Reply-To: <33740.28017.qm@web113507.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <6F9542E7505C40AEAA28C473798E07B0@vl420mt> <33740.28017.qm@web113507.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > I had to post this because it talks about a venue that would be dear to many people here.. > > Guy puts together a vintage pinball and games museum in NY > > NY has old law stating pinball is illegal > > He will probably go out of business. Every town in the US has old laws on the books like this that when challenged in modern times, completely fall apart in the courts and only piss off the judges. No town prosecutor wants to be in that situation. Hell, officially next time I see Curt at the post office and his shirt and pants are not matching, I am busting him. The law is still on the books in Carmel. -- WIll From lproven at gmail.com Tue Aug 10 18:39:50 2010 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 00:39:50 +0100 Subject: GET LAMP is here In-Reply-To: <20100810125109.M61892@shell.lmi.net> References: <20100810125109.M61892@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On 10 August 2010 21:32, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Mon, 9 Aug 2010, Gene Buckle wrote: >> Well frankly, if I had any idea that you'd go Old Man McClusky on me while >> waving your cane in my face and raving about these damn kids, I just may >> have. ?Unfortunately I constantly forget that you like to party like it's >> 1979. > > HELL, YES!! ? ? You damn kids today have no clue how to party. > Herpes was the worst incurable STD in those days. > > I will gladly find and give John Titor a 5100 (with APL AND BASIC) > if he will just drop me off in 1979. ?I'll throw in a 360 > for a one-way to the 1960s. ?That's for one-way. Ooooh oooh ooh! Can I come? Please? When the '60s ended, I was nearly 3. I missed all the fun. > For round-trip, all he gets is Valtrep. [Mirth] Oh, come on. We can give him a PDP/11 running OS/2, at least! -- Liam Proven ? Profile & links: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From legalize at xmission.com Tue Aug 10 21:13:46 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2010 20:13:46 -0600 Subject: GET LAMP is here In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 10 Aug 2010 16:09:38 -0400. <4C61B202.1050403@neurotica.com> Message-ID: [100% entirely predictable linux/windows bigotry from Dave McGuire.] Dude, you really need to get some new material. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Aug 10 22:15:37 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2010 23:15:37 -0400 Subject: GET LAMP is here In-Reply-To: <20100810225432.GC365@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> References: <20100809163517.M21499@shell.lmi.net> <4C60E2D8.4040301@jetnet.ab.ca> <20100809223554.N21499@shell.lmi.net> <022a01cb389c$6fa0e4a0$9201a8c0@portajara> <20100810195908.GA365@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> <4C61B202.1050403@neurotica.com> <20100810225432.GC365@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> Message-ID: > They probably found the price of (replacement) vt520s going up a bit too > much for the size of their company. And a small Linux capable box for > terminal like jobs can be had _very_ cheap - the alix3d3 sells for > around USD 125 including systemboard, case and powerbrick. Thats a > AMD Geode 500 Mhz with 256 MB of memory, network, USB, VGA (can do > 1280x1024), audio on board. Very low power draw as well, boots from CF. > The case is about 15x15x3 cm, you could just stick that behind the monitor. An AMD Geode 500 Mhz with 256 MB of memory, network, USB, VGA (can do1280x1024), audio on board, just to be a dumb terminal. Bloat? What bloat? -- Will From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Aug 10 22:27:12 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2010 23:27:12 -0400 Subject: GET LAMP is here In-Reply-To: References: <20100809163517.M21499@shell.lmi.net> <4C60E2D8.4040301@jetnet.ab.ca> <20100809223554.N21499@shell.lmi.net> <022a01cb389c$6fa0e4a0$9201a8c0@portajara> <20100810195908.GA365@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> <4C61B202.1050403@neurotica.com> <20100810225432.GC365@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> Message-ID: <4C621890.9000600@neurotica.com> On 8/10/10 11:15 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >> They probably found the price of (replacement) vt520s going up a bit too >> much for the size of their company. And a small Linux capable box for >> terminal like jobs can be had _very_ cheap - the alix3d3 sells for >> around USD 125 including systemboard, case and powerbrick. Thats a >> AMD Geode 500 Mhz with 256 MB of memory, network, USB, VGA (can do >> 1280x1024), audio on board. Very low power draw as well, boots from CF. >> The case is about 15x15x3 cm, you could just stick that behind the monitor. > > An AMD Geode 500 Mhz with 256 MB of memory, network, USB, VGA (can > do1280x1024), audio on board, just to be a dumb terminal. > > Bloat? What bloat? Yeah, it's pretty disgusting. Amazingly though, it's actually cheaper to do it that way than to buy a VT520. Scary stuff. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Aug 10 22:33:48 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2010 23:33:48 -0400 Subject: GET LAMP is here In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C621A1C.3040800@neurotica.com> On 8/10/10 10:13 PM, Richard wrote: > [100% entirely predictable linux/windows bigotry from Dave McGuire.] > > Dude, you really need to get some new material. I wish I had the time to come up with some actual bigotry, because that can be fun. For now I'll just stick to getting rid of the damn things as quickly as I can. Twenty six so far this year, two in the past week! I won't get them all, but I'll do my part to undo the twenty-year backrolling of technology pushed upon the inexperienced by Microsoft. Since you choose to brand my comments as bigotry, something for which we both seem to be known, perhaps you'd like to hear the actual business-robbing, soul-killing sob stories that resulted in those customers jumping off of the Windows ship. Somehow I doubt it, but I'll tell you if you like. I don't think you'll be left in much of a defensible position. (Hey, all I did was say slicked-back, suit-wearing, advertisement-obeying Windows fanboys rarely get laid! ;)) -Dave, not feeling particularly hospitable today PS, and on-topic: You never replied to my off-list messages about that Unibus video subsystem I offered you a year or two ago. I assume they've been caught in a spam trap or something. Do you want it? If so, it's yours for the cost of shipping, let me know. -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Aug 10 22:53:31 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2010 23:53:31 -0400 Subject: Speaking of Bernoullis... Message-ID: <4C621EBB.3040502@neurotica.com> I'd love to use 5.25" Bernoullis as removable storage on a PDP-11 via a Qbus SCSI host adapter. Does anyone know offhand if any of the common boards, like the CMD CQD-223, will properly handle a drive with 256 bytes per sector? I know it's a bit odd to think about, but it seems like a good idea to me, if it'll work. If nobody pipes up and says it definitely won't work, perhaps I'll dig up a Bernoulli drive and try it at some point. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From quapla at xs4all.nl Wed Aug 11 01:08:51 2010 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (E. Groenenberg) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 08:08:51 +0200 Subject: OT?: Re: A New York Town where Pinball is illegal In-Reply-To: <33740.28017.qm@web113507.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <33740.28017.qm@web113507.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <051a274d9e94600a07905abe1f5e97ed.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Well if the mayor says 'it is a slow process' why not handing out a permit with a set time that allows that venue to 'show and operate vintage arcade machines' for entertainment purposes? In that case both sides are happy, the owner to continue his business and the council to go though the process. Oh well, burocrats..... Ed > I had to post this because it talks about a venue that would be dear to > many people here.. > > Guy puts together a vintage pinball and games museum in NY > > NY has old law stating pinball is illegal > > He will probably go out of business. > > http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/crime/2010/08/07/pkg.chernoff.pinball.ban.cnn? > > > > -- Dit is een HTML vrije email / This is an HTML free email. From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Aug 11 02:14:31 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 00:14:31 -0700 Subject: New acquisition... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C624DD7.5040503@brouhaha.com> Tony Duell wrote: > Nice machine. The QX10 is one of my favourite desktop CP/M machines. The > video system is based round a 7220, the serial port (IIRC) uses a 7201. > Using a uPD7201 for the serial port is a strike against it. High speed modems that transport asynchronous data over a synchronous modulation, such as V.22, V.22bis, V.32, etc., have to use V.14 procedures to handle cases where the transmitting device is overspeed relative to the modulation, or the transmitting modem is overspeed relative to the receiving side. In the former case, up to one out of ten stop bits get dropped over the modulation, and reinserted on the receiving side. When that happens, or in the case that the transmitting system's modulation is faster than the receiving side (due to crystal tolerances, etc.), the receiving side is allowed to shave off a portion of each stop bit on the serial interface. That works fine with 99.9% of UARTs out there, which only require 9/16 of a stop bit for a valid receive character, and to start watching for the next start bit. The uPD7201 requires a full stop bit, so is not compliant with the V.14 standard, and will garble data and report framing errors when V.14 stop bit shortening occurs This was a huge problem for people using V.22bis or V.32 modems with the AT&T 7300 or 3B1 Unix PC, as they used the 7201. It's less of a problem since the adoption of V.42 error control, because when using V.42 there is normally hardware flow control at both ends, and V.42 can apply "back pressure" across the modem link to slow down a transmitting system as needed. Eric From als at thangorodrim.de Wed Aug 11 02:02:49 2010 From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 09:02:49 +0200 Subject: GET LAMP is here In-Reply-To: References: <20100809163517.M21499@shell.lmi.net> <4C60E2D8.4040301@jetnet.ab.ca> <20100809223554.N21499@shell.lmi.net> <022a01cb389c$6fa0e4a0$9201a8c0@portajara> <20100810195908.GA365@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> <4C61B202.1050403@neurotica.com> <20100810225432.GC365@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> Message-ID: <20100811070249.GA24723@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> On Tue, Aug 10, 2010 at 11:15:37PM -0400, William Donzelli wrote: > > They probably found the price of (replacement) vt520s going up a bit too > > much for the size of their company. And a small Linux capable box for > > terminal like jobs can be had _very_ cheap - the alix3d3 sells for > > around USD 125 including systemboard, case and powerbrick. Thats a > > AMD Geode 500 Mhz with 256 MB of memory, network, USB, VGA (can do > > 1280x1024), audio on board. Very low power draw as well, boots from CF. > > The case is about 15x15x3 cm, you could just stick that behind the monitor. > > An AMD Geode 500 Mhz with 256 MB of memory, network, USB, VGA (can > do1280x1024), audio on board, just to be a dumb terminal. > > Bloat? What bloat? Of course it's bloat - but it is a machine that one can easily get new and in quantity and that will probably will remain so for a while. I'd guess getting vt520 im numbers would be a) more expensive b) harder to aquire unless someone is still making them ... And while we are at it: quite a few _cellphones_ these days have more computing power than that. For a cellphone ... Kind regards, Alex. -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Aug 11 02:24:21 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 00:24:21 -0700 Subject: New acquisition... In-Reply-To: <4C615477.31275.13C93B3@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4C61AB37.6010609@neurotica.com> <4C615477.31275.13C93B3@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4C625025.9090300@brouhaha.com> Chuck Guzis wrote about the Epson QX10 and Valdocs: > I believe the Forth thing extended to their clone CP/M, called TP/M. > There are some subtle differences between the two. Done by a San > Franscisco outfit, with a name like "Friends-Amis"? > Not sure about their involvement with the QX10, but they developed the Matsushita (Panasonic and Quasar) HHC, which was 6502-based. Much of the software for the HHC was written in SNAP, which was a token-threaded dialect of Forth. Unless you have the extremely rare SNAP FORTH module, SNAP is not exposed to the user. There was also a SNAP BASIC module, which contained a BASIC interpreter written in SNAP. This is NOT the same as the Microsoft BASIC module, which was a port of Microsoft's normal 6502 BASIC, very similar to the KIM-1 version. From shoppa at trailing-edge.com Wed Aug 11 03:02:06 2010 From: shoppa at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 04:02:06 -0400 Subject: 3270 Personal Computer Message-ID: <20100811080206.51C301E0227@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Further from the details of the OP, but a little closer to the spirit of the OP and more DECish: I remember students calling up when they had trouble running their Fortran homework programs through the compiler on the "VT100 computer running VMS". Even today the computer hardware on the desk is often blamed when it's really really some backend website that's FUBAR or Microsoft's Windows getting infected by spyware. And as long as we're talking about people who get confused by the label on the computer devices in front of them, where's the guy who swears up and down that he has OS/2 for the PDP-11 and that he was using the predecessor to Fortran in 1982? None of the above people are evil, just misguided and in need of some nudges. But it's sad that the computer industry is so confusing that the nudges are needed, and that the folks who decide what brand gets buys are so often swayed by the brandname of something on their desk rather than reality. Tim. From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Aug 11 07:55:39 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 08:55:39 -0400 Subject: GET LAMP is here In-Reply-To: <20100811070249.GA24723@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> References: <20100809163517.M21499@shell.lmi.net> <4C60E2D8.4040301@jetnet.ab.ca> <20100809223554.N21499@shell.lmi.net> <022a01cb389c$6fa0e4a0$9201a8c0@portajara> <20100810195908.GA365@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> <4C61B202.1050403@neurotica.com> <20100810225432.GC365@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> <20100811070249.GA24723@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> Message-ID: > Of course it's bloat - but it is a machine that one can easily get new > and in quantity and that will probably will remain so for a while. I'd > guess getting vt520 im numbers would be a) more expensive b) harder to > aquire unless someone is still making them ... Depending on the numbers needed - maybe or maybe not. There are a *lot* of late model dumb terminals on the surplus and reseller market right now. Given the glut, coupled with the vanishing number of applications, they can be purchased pretty cheap in quantity. -- Will From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Wed Aug 11 05:03:20 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 07:03:20 -0300 Subject: GET LAMP is here References: <20100809163517.M21499@shell.lmi.net> <4C60E2D8.4040301@jetnet.ab.ca> <20100809223554.N21499@shell.lmi.net> <022a01cb389c$6fa0e4a0$9201a8c0@portajara> <20100810195908.GA365@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> <4C61B202.1050403@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <085001cb3957$1adadc80$9201a8c0@portajara> > And in my experience, *only* UNIX people tend to get laid, because > they're the only ones with any sense of style. > Windows people seem to go after really skanky women. No standards > across the board, ya know. Even in Sweden? :o) Greetings from Brazil, blah blah blah :) Alexandre Souza, PU1BZZ From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Wed Aug 11 05:07:50 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 07:07:50 -0300 Subject: GET LAMP is here References: <4C621A1C.3040800@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <085201cb3957$1e58dfb0$9201a8c0@portajara> > -Dave, not feeling particularly hospitable today Get a rubber duck and one of that baseball bats made of foam. It is nice to make a bad day in a funny day :) From dkelvey at hotmail.com Wed Aug 11 09:37:21 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 07:37:21 -0700 Subject: SparcBook Tadpole In-Reply-To: <4C60BEAC.5080609@neurotica.com> References: <992230.97947.qm@web52604.mail.re2.yahoo.com>, , <4C60BEAC.5080609@neurotica.com> Message-ID: Hi With the help of Jim S and Dave McGuire, I got my Spacrbook working. It does have an issue. It says the clock it not working and needs to be set. I opened is up to clean any remaining KOH from leaky NiCads and saw it had one of those MK48T02B chips in it. I tried doing a search on google for anyone hacking these chips to replace the battery but all I got were chip sales. There is some on ebay but I don't know if the batteries will be any good. I suspect the battery has some life. It still boots with a hostname and ethernet address but how much longer, who knows. Dwight From cclist at sydex.com Wed Aug 11 09:57:11 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 07:57:11 -0700 Subject: SparcBook Tadpole In-Reply-To: References: <992230.97947.qm@web52604.mail.re2.yahoo.com>, <4C60BEAC.5080609@neurotica.com>, Message-ID: <4C6257D7.24803.67DE35@cclist.sydex.com> On 11 Aug 2010 at 7:37, dwight elvey wrote: > With the help of Jim S and Dave McGuire, I got my Spacrbook working. > It does have an issue. It says the clock it not working and needs to > be set. I opened is up to clean any remaining KOH from leaky NiCads > and saw it had one of those MK48T02B chips in it. > I tried doing a search on google for anyone hacking these chips > to replace the battery but all I got were chip sales. > There is some on ebay but I don't know if the batteries will > be any good. > I suspect the battery has some life. It still boots with a hostname > and ethernet address but how much longer, who knows. Dwight The part appears to be identical to the Dallas/Maxim DS1642. DigiKey, Mouser, etc. show them in their catalogs. Not cheap, but available. --Chuck From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Wed Aug 11 09:51:18 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 11:51:18 -0300 Subject: SparcBook Tadpole References: <992230.97947.qm@web52604.mail.re2.yahoo.com>, , <4C60BEAC.5080609@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <08fa01cb3967$3f6269a0$9201a8c0@portajara> > I tried doing a search on google for anyone hacking these chips >to replace the battery but all I got were chip sales. Easy for us :) The chip is a plastic box. In this box there is a common chip, and some batteries on top. Cut the box with a plier and you'll see the batteries, it is that simple. Change the batteries, and be happy :) From dkelvey at hotmail.com Wed Aug 11 10:29:30 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 08:29:30 -0700 Subject: SparcBook Tadpole In-Reply-To: <08fa01cb3967$3f6269a0$9201a8c0@portajara> References: <992230.97947.qm@web52604.mail.re2.yahoo.com>, , , , <4C60BEAC.5080609@neurotica.com>, , <08fa01cb3967$3f6269a0$9201a8c0@portajara> Message-ID: > From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com > > > I tried doing a search on google for anyone hacking these chips > >to replace the battery but all I got were chip sales. > > Easy for us :) > > The chip is a plastic box. In this box there is a common chip, and some > batteries on top. Cut the box with a plier and you'll see the batteries, it > is that simple. Change the batteries, and be happy :) > Hi Sounds good. So, the SST parts are just a plastic cover. I know the Dallas parts are potted but one has to know where to grind. If this is just a cover, a few minutes with a hacksaw blade or knife should do it. Dwight From legalize at xmission.com Wed Aug 11 11:28:55 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 10:28:55 -0600 Subject: GET LAMP is here In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 10 Aug 2010 23:33:48 -0400. <4C621A1C.3040800@neurotica.com> Message-ID: In article <4C621A1C.3040800 at neurotica.com>, Dave McGuire writes: > Since you choose to brand my comments as bigotry, something for which > we both seem to be known, [...] Actually its just you. I don't particularly care about your sob stories or your endless whinging about Windows. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Aug 11 11:38:36 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 12:38:36 -0400 Subject: GET LAMP is here In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C62D20C.10407@neurotica.com> On 8/11/10 12:28 PM, Richard wrote: >> Since you choose to brand my comments as bigotry, something for which >> we both seem to be known, [...] > > Actually its just you. Not so much, actually. I'm usually the one who pops up complaining about Windows, and you're usually the one who pops up contradicting it. But hey, it's all in good fun. Speaking of good fun...the first release of Windows I was exposed to was 1.03. Any idea if it'll run under VMware? > I don't particularly care about your sob stories or your endless > whinging about Windows. They're not MY sob stories, because I don't use Windows. They're my customers', and fortunately I can usually get rid of the garbage. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Aug 11 11:45:09 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 12:45:09 -0400 Subject: SparcBook Tadpole In-Reply-To: References: <992230.97947.qm@web52604.mail.re2.yahoo.com>, , <4C60BEAC.5080609@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4C62D395.2030104@neurotica.com> On 8/11/10 10:37 AM, dwight elvey wrote: > With the help of Jim S and Dave McGuire, I got my Spacrbook working. Woohooo! > It does have an issue. It says the clock it not working and needs to be > set. I opened is up to clean any remaining KOH from leaky NiCads > and saw it had one of those MK48T02B chips in it. > I tried doing a search on google for anyone hacking these chips > to replace the battery but all I got were chip sales. I've seen pages documenting this, but that was years ago. The chip sales sites (for companies who may or may not actually HAVE the chips they're trying to sell, grumble) have certainly swamped that stuff, as you've found. I suggest progressive google search refinement to find the right stuff, as I know it's out there. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From legalize at xmission.com Wed Aug 11 11:52:52 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 10:52:52 -0600 Subject: GET LAMP is here In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 11 Aug 2010 12:38:36 -0400. <4C62D20C.10407@neurotica.com> Message-ID: In article <4C62D20C.10407 at neurotica.com>, Dave McGuire writes: > Not so much, actually. I'm usually the one who pops up complaining > about Windows, and you're usually the one who pops up contradicting it. No, you're the one constantly complaining about Windows and I'm just the one asking you to give it a rest. Me saying I've never had problems with Windows is not the same thing as being bigoted about it. I actually don't care what OS people use and if people ask me for a recommendation, I tell them to try different ones and use what works best for them. You constantly whinge on about Windows, even when its not relevant and even when we've heard you whinge on about it a billion times already. You're a broken record. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From IanK at vulcan.com Wed Aug 11 11:54:38 2010 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 09:54:38 -0700 Subject: GET LAMP is here In-Reply-To: References: <20100809163517.M21499@shell.lmi.net> <4C60E2D8.4040301@jetnet.ab.ca> <20100809223554.N21499@shell.lmi.net> <022a01cb389c$6fa0e4a0$9201a8c0@portajara> <20100810195908.GA365@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> <4C61B202.1050403@neurotica.com> <20100810225432.GC365@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> <20100811070249.GA24723@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of William Donzelli > Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 2010 5:56 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: GET LAMP is here > > > Of course it's bloat - but it is a machine that one can easily get > new > > and in quantity and that will probably will remain so for a while. > I'd > > guess getting vt520 im numbers would be a) more expensive b) harder > to > > aquire unless someone is still making them ... > > Depending on the numbers needed - maybe or maybe not. There are a > *lot* of late model dumb terminals on the surplus and reseller market > right now. Given the glut, coupled with the vanishing number of > applications, they can be purchased pretty cheap in quantity. > > -- > Will Of course, shipping for, say a hundred VT520s is significantly higher than for those modern replacements - even when you add in the (now LCD) screen. Oh that's right, you can just go down to Best Buy (which rarely is) to buy the screens.... That's not to say I don't have a personal preference for the originals - I have mostly VT420s at home, and we're refurbishing a bunch of VT100s and VT52s here at work. -- Ian From IanK at vulcan.com Wed Aug 11 11:55:16 2010 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 09:55:16 -0700 Subject: GET LAMP is here In-Reply-To: <085201cb3957$1e58dfb0$9201a8c0@portajara> References: <4C621A1C.3040800@neurotica.com> <085201cb3957$1e58dfb0$9201a8c0@portajara> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Alexandre Souza - Listas > Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 2010 3:08 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: GET LAMP is here > > > -Dave, not feeling particularly hospitable today > > Get a rubber duck and one of that baseball bats made of foam. It is > nice > to make a bad day in a funny day :) > What a great piece of advice! I wonder if I can expense that. :-) From pat at computer-refuge.org Wed Aug 11 11:57:26 2010 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 12:57:26 -0400 Subject: SparcBook Tadpole In-Reply-To: <4C62D395.2030104@neurotica.com> References: <992230.97947.qm@web52604.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <4C62D395.2030104@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <201008111257.26329.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Wednesday 11 August 2010, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 8/11/10 10:37 AM, dwight elvey wrote: > > It does have an issue. It says the clock it not working and needs > > to be set. I opened is up to clean any remaining KOH from leaky > > NiCads and saw it had one of those MK48T02B chips in it. > > I tried doing a search on google for anyone hacking these chips > > to replace the battery but all I got were chip sales. > > I've seen pages documenting this, but that was years ago. The chip > sales sites (for companies who may or may not actually HAVE the chips > they're trying to sell, grumble) have certainly swamped that stuff, > as you've found. I suggest progressive google search refinement to > find the right stuff, as I know it's out there. First google result for "Sun NVRAM battery replacement": http://www.bhargavaz.com/nvram/nvram.html Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From IanK at vulcan.com Wed Aug 11 12:00:25 2010 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 10:00:25 -0700 Subject: SparcBook Tadpole In-Reply-To: <08fa01cb3967$3f6269a0$9201a8c0@portajara> References: <992230.97947.qm@web52604.mail.re2.yahoo.com>, , <4C60BEAC.5080609@neurotica.com> <08fa01cb3967$3f6269a0$9201a8c0@portajara> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Alexandre Souza - Listas > Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 2010 7:51 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: SparcBook Tadpole > > > I tried doing a search on google for anyone hacking these chips > >to replace the battery but all I got were chip sales. > > Easy for us :) > > The chip is a plastic box. In this box there is a common chip, and > some > batteries on top. Cut the box with a plier and you'll see the > batteries, it > is that simple. Change the batteries, and be happy :) > I recently replaced one of those parts in my Sparcstation Voyager. The part from DigiKey was only about USD $20, which I figured was a better deal than my time spent grinding and cutting and splicing.... -- Ian From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Aug 11 12:04:32 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 13:04:32 -0400 Subject: GET LAMP is here In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C62D820.7010304@neurotica.com> On 8/11/10 12:52 PM, Richard wrote: >> Not so much, actually. I'm usually the one who pops up complaining >> about Windows, and you're usually the one who pops up contradicting it. > > No, you're the one constantly complaining about Windows and I'm just > the one asking you to give it a rest. > > Me saying I've never had problems with Windows is not the same thing > as being bigoted about it. I agreed. But just the same, my saying "it sucks" isn't bigotry either. I speak from facts (well-known ones, I might add) and experience. In other words, I don't say "Windows sucks" because I don't like it...I don't like it because it sucks. You're assuming the causality relationship is the opposite of what it really is, which, I'm sorry to say, is extremely common amongst the "Microsoft can do no wrong" crowd. > I actually don't care what OS people use and if people ask me for a > recommendation, I tell them to try different ones and use what works > best for them. > > You constantly whinge on about Windows, even when its not relevant and > even when we've heard you whinge on about it a billion times already. I'll admit that I started it this time, but I usually don't. I chime in with commiseration when someone poo-poos it, and then you pounce on me with Microsoft fanboy-ism. THAT crap really gets old. As I told a friend in private email not five minutes ago, I have a *great deal* of respect for you in the areas in which you know what you're talking about (graphics) but not so much for the areas you don't (modern operating systems). Fortunately, the latter isn't really the topic here. > You're a broken record. Pot, kettle. ;) At any rate, it was not my intention to drag this even further off-topic (honestly) and I certainly didn't mean to "get into it" with you once again. For that I apologize. We're not going to convince each other. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Aug 11 12:05:24 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 13:05:24 -0400 Subject: GET LAMP is here In-Reply-To: References: <20100809163517.M21499@shell.lmi.net> <4C60E2D8.4040301@jetnet.ab.ca> <20100809223554.N21499@shell.lmi.net> <022a01cb389c$6fa0e4a0$9201a8c0@portajara> <20100810195908.GA365@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> <4C61B202.1050403@neurotica.com> <20100810225432.GC365@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> <20100811070249.GA24723@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> Message-ID: <4C62D854.8050203@neurotica.com> On 8/11/10 8:55 AM, William Donzelli wrote: >> Of course it's bloat - but it is a machine that one can easily get new >> and in quantity and that will probably will remain so for a while. I'd >> guess getting vt520 im numbers would be a) more expensive b) harder to >> aquire unless someone is still making them ... > > Depending on the numbers needed - maybe or maybe not. There are a > *lot* of late model dumb terminals on the surplus and reseller market > right now. Given the glut, coupled with the vanishing number of > applications, they can be purchased pretty cheap in quantity. Absolutely. But getting customers to buy "used" equipment ("eeeew, it's USED!") is damn near impossible much of the time. I don't understand that mentality at all, but it's way too common. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Aug 11 12:05:47 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 13:05:47 -0400 Subject: SparcBook Tadpole In-Reply-To: <201008111257.26329.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <992230.97947.qm@web52604.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <4C62D395.2030104@neurotica.com> <201008111257.26329.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: On 8/11/10, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > First google result for "Sun NVRAM battery replacement": > > http://www.bhargavaz.com/nvram/nvram.html Ooh... I've seen that page before, and that technique looks dangerous (the soldering to the Li battery part). I've replaced batteries on "Timekeepers" before, but I either use the batteries that have solder tabs pre-welded onto them, or use a snap-in battery carrier and solder the leads from that to the chip. -ethan From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Aug 11 12:06:07 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 13:06:07 -0400 Subject: GET LAMP is here In-Reply-To: <085201cb3957$1e58dfb0$9201a8c0@portajara> References: <4C621A1C.3040800@neurotica.com> <085201cb3957$1e58dfb0$9201a8c0@portajara> Message-ID: <4C62D87F.5050703@neurotica.com> On 8/11/10 6:07 AM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >> -Dave, not feeling particularly hospitable today > > Get a rubber duck and one of that baseball bats made of foam. It is > nice to make a bad day in a funny day :) ROFL!!! -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From legalize at xmission.com Wed Aug 11 12:12:30 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 11:12:30 -0600 Subject: GET LAMP is here In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 11 Aug 2010 13:04:32 -0400. <4C62D820.7010304@neurotica.com> Message-ID: *plonk* -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Wed Aug 11 12:07:07 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 14:07:07 -0300 Subject: GET LAMP is here References: Message-ID: <09b701cb3978$e93e8b00$9201a8c0@portajara> >> Since you choose to brand my comments as bigotry, something for which >> we both seem to be known, [...] > Actually its just you. > I don't particularly care about your sob stories or your endless > whinging about Windows. Round one...FIGHT! :oD From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Wed Aug 11 12:09:12 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 14:09:12 -0300 Subject: SparcBook Tadpole References: <992230.97947.qm@web52604.mail.re2.yahoo.com>, , <4C60BEAC.5080609@neurotica.com> <4C62D395.2030104@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <09b801cb3978$eb904330$9201a8c0@portajara> > I've seen pages documenting this, but that was years ago. The chip > sales sites (for companies who may or may not actually HAVE the chips > they're trying to sell, grumble) have certainly swamped that stuff, as > you've found. I suggest progressive google search refinement to find > the right stuff, as I know it's out there. There is an add-on for firefox that you can isolate entire sites or sections of sites on google search. I use it at home, in my desktop. Unfortunately my desktop is still stored (I may remember you I just moved to Sao Paulo). But I'll try to look for it this week From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Wed Aug 11 12:09:41 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 14:09:41 -0300 Subject: GET LAMP is here References: Message-ID: <09b901cb3978$ee24a9b0$9201a8c0@portajara> > You constantly whinge on about Windows, even when its not relevant and > even when we've heard you whinge on about it a billion times already. > You're a broken record. Is it round two? :o) From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Wed Aug 11 12:11:45 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 14:11:45 -0300 Subject: GET LAMP is here References: <4C621A1C.3040800@neurotica.com><085201cb3957$1e58dfb0$9201a8c0@portajara> Message-ID: <09ba01cb3978$f08492b0$9201a8c0@portajara> > > -Dave, not feeling particularly hospitable today > Get a rubber duck and one of that baseball bats made of foam. It is > nice > to make a bad day in a funny day :) >What a great piece of advice! I wonder if I can expense that. :-) I remember some years ago there was a baseball bat made of foam, you coud use to slam your television if you see something you don't like. Since it was connected to the power outlet of the TV set, and if I'm not mistaken to the video input, it flashed the tv and turned it off for some seconds. Man, it was FUN! :o) From pat at computer-refuge.org Wed Aug 11 12:17:10 2010 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 13:17:10 -0400 Subject: VAX on a cell phone Message-ID: <201008111317.10868.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Wednesday, August 11, 2010, Alexander Schreiber wrote: > And while we are at it: quite a few _cellphones_ these days have more > computing power than that. For a cellphone ... In that vein, I have spent some time over the past week or so setting up my cell phone (an HTC Evo running Android) to emulate a VAX by running SIMH. http://worldofvax.blogspot.com/2010/08/compiling-simh-emulators-for- android.html And then using a VT125 for its console: http://worldofvax.blogspot.com/2010/08/htc-evo-and-vt125.html Enjoy the insanity! Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Aug 11 12:27:20 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 13:27:20 -0400 Subject: GET LAMP is here In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C62DD78.2070209@neurotica.com> On 8/11/10 1:12 PM, Richard wrote: > *plonk* He shoots, he scores! -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Aug 11 12:28:07 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 13:28:07 -0400 Subject: GET LAMP is here In-Reply-To: <09ba01cb3978$f08492b0$9201a8c0@portajara> References: <4C621A1C.3040800@neurotica.com><085201cb3957$1e58dfb0$9201a8c0@portajara> <09ba01cb3978$f08492b0$9201a8c0@portajara> Message-ID: <4C62DDA7.3050700@neurotica.com> On 8/11/10 1:11 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >> > -Dave, not feeling particularly hospitable today >> Get a rubber duck and one of that baseball bats made of foam. It is >> nice >> to make a bad day in a funny day :) >> What a great piece of advice! I wonder if I can expense that. :-) > > I remember some years ago there was a baseball bat made of foam, you > coud use to slam your television if you see something you don't like. > Since it was connected to the power outlet of the TV set, and if I'm not > mistaken to the video input, it flashed the tv and turned it off for > some seconds. Man, it was FUN! :o) YES! I remember those! Where did they go? Not that I watch TV anyway, but that could be useful for other things as well. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Wed Aug 11 12:18:30 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 14:18:30 -0300 Subject: SparcBook Tadpole References: <992230.97947.qm@web52604.mail.re2.yahoo.com><4C62D395.2030104@neurotica.com><201008111257.26329.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <09e801cb397a$b1a84760$9201a8c0@portajara> > Ooh... I've seen that page before, and that technique looks dangerous > (the soldering to the Li battery part). I've done it hundreds of times, you just need to be fast and having a good solder :P From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Aug 11 12:29:04 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 13:29:04 -0400 Subject: VAX on a cell phone In-Reply-To: <201008111317.10868.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <201008111317.10868.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <4C62DDE0.10503@neurotica.com> On 8/11/10 1:17 PM, Patrick Finnegan wrote: >> And while we are at it: quite a few _cellphones_ these days have more >> computing power than that. For a cellphone ... > > In that vein, I have spent some time over the past week or so setting up > my cell phone (an HTC Evo running Android) to emulate a VAX by running > SIMH. > > http://worldofvax.blogspot.com/2010/08/compiling-simh-emulators-for- > android.html > > And then using a VT125 for its console: > > http://worldofvax.blogspot.com/2010/08/htc-evo-and-vt125.html > > Enjoy the insanity! Most excellent! -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Aug 11 12:29:24 2010 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 10:29:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: VAX on a cell phone In-Reply-To: <201008111317.10868.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <201008111317.10868.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 11 Aug 2010, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > In that vein, I have spent some time over the past week or so setting up > my cell phone (an HTC Evo running Android) to emulate a VAX by running > SIMH. > > http://worldofvax.blogspot.com/2010/08/compiling-simh-emulators-for- > android.html > > And then using a VT125 for its console: > > http://worldofvax.blogspot.com/2010/08/htc-evo-and-vt125.html > > Enjoy the insanity! So how does it compare speed wise to a MicroVAX II? Zane From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Aug 11 12:32:16 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 13:32:16 -0400 Subject: SparcBook Tadpole In-Reply-To: <09b801cb3978$eb904330$9201a8c0@portajara> References: <992230.97947.qm@web52604.mail.re2.yahoo.com>, , <4C60BEAC.5080609@neurotica.com> <4C62D395.2030104@neurotica.com> <09b801cb3978$eb904330$9201a8c0@portajara> Message-ID: <4C62DEA0.8020908@neurotica.com> On 8/11/10 1:09 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >> I've seen pages documenting this, but that was years ago. The chip >> sales sites (for companies who may or may not actually HAVE the chips >> they're trying to sell, grumble) have certainly swamped that stuff, as >> you've found. I suggest progressive google search refinement to find >> the right stuff, as I know it's out there. > > There is an add-on for firefox that you can isolate entire sites or > sections of sites on google search. I use it at home, in my desktop. > Unfortunately my desktop is still stored (I may remember you I just > moved to Sao Paulo). But I'll try to look for it this week Oh, I'd love that; the whole "experts-exchange.com" domain would finally hit the bit bucket from my browser's perspective. Please let me know the name of this add-on when you can? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Aug 11 12:41:39 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 13:41:39 -0400 Subject: VAX on a cell phone In-Reply-To: <201008111317.10868.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <201008111317.10868.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: On 8/11/10, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > In that vein, I have spent some time over the past week or so setting up > my cell phone (an HTC Evo running Android) to emulate a VAX by running > SIMH... And then using a VT125 for its console: > > http://worldofvax.blogspot.com/2010/08/htc-evo-and-vt125.html > > Enjoy the insanity! Nice. It's handy that you have the terminal servers on hand - I'd be scrounging for a way to get the bits from the terminal to the phone and vice versa. Do you think it would work to get a bluetooth serial interface for the VT125, or would there be no way to induce the phone to pair up to that for a virtual 'comport'? -ethan From pat at computer-refuge.org Wed Aug 11 12:43:16 2010 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 13:43:16 -0400 Subject: VAX on a cell phone In-Reply-To: References: <201008111317.10868.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <201008111343.16554.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Wednesday 11 August 2010, Zane H. Healy wrote: > On Wed, 11 Aug 2010, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > > In that vein, I have spent some time over the past week or so > > setting up my cell phone (an HTC Evo running Android) to emulate a > > VAX by running SIMH. > > > > http://worldofvax.blogspot.com/2010/08/compiling-simh-emulators-for > >- android.html > > > > And then using a VT125 for its console: > > > > http://worldofvax.blogspot.com/2010/08/htc-evo-and-vt125.html > > > > Enjoy the insanity! > > So how does it compare speed wise to a MicroVAX II? I haven't yet booted VMS on it, mostly because I seem to have misplaced the root password for the VMS image I have on the phone. Once I fix that little problem, I'll see what running vups.com tells me. One thing is for sure... the real phone is a whole lot faster than running simh under the android emulator. The speed of that was definitely less than 1 emulated VUP. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From pat at computer-refuge.org Wed Aug 11 12:48:55 2010 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 13:48:55 -0400 Subject: VAX on a cell phone In-Reply-To: References: <201008111317.10868.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <201008111348.55451.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Wednesday 11 August 2010, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 8/11/10, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > > In that vein, I have spent some time over the past week or so > > setting up my cell phone (an HTC Evo running Android) to emulate a > > VAX by running SIMH... And then using a VT125 for its console: > > > > http://worldofvax.blogspot.com/2010/08/htc-evo-and-vt125.html > > > > Enjoy the insanity! > > Nice. It's handy that you have the terminal servers on hand - I'd be > scrounging for a way to get the bits from the terminal to the phone > and vice versa. > > Do you think it would work to get a bluetooth serial interface for > the VT125, or would there be no way to induce the phone to pair up > to that for a virtual 'comport'? Sounds interesting. I've never played with BT stuff, but it's just a Linux environment. With enough effort, you could probably get it to work, but with Simh, it's easier to have something that just can telnet to a particular TCP port on the phone. Maybe I'll try to find some sort of BT serial dongle to try it out. :) Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Wed Aug 11 12:35:45 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 14:35:45 -0300 Subject: VAX on a cell phone References: <201008111317.10868.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <0a0401cb397d$923b34c0$9201a8c0@portajara> > In that vein, I have spent some time over the past week or so setting up > my cell phone (an HTC Evo running Android) to emulate a VAX by running > SIMH. In a word: W O W ! ! ! I have more computing power in my pocket than anyhing that was used to take the man to the moon :) From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Wed Aug 11 12:50:47 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 14:50:47 -0300 Subject: GET LAMP is here References: <4C621A1C.3040800@neurotica.com><085201cb3957$1e58dfb0$9201a8c0@portajara> <09ba01cb3978$f08492b0$9201a8c0@portajara> <4C62DDA7.3050700@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <0a2e01cb397e$81b3d520$9201a8c0@portajara> >> I remember some years ago there was a baseball bat made of foam, you >> coud use to slam your television if you see something you don't like. >> Since it was connected to the power outlet of the TV set, and if I'm not >> mistaken to the video input, it flashed the tv and turned it off for >> some seconds. Man, it was FUN! :o) > YES! I remember those! Where did they go? Not that I watch TV > anyway, but that could be useful for other things as well. YOU live in USA :) Maybe you can track where it went ;) From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Wed Aug 11 12:55:06 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 14:55:06 -0300 Subject: VAX on a cell phone References: <201008111317.10868.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <0a3201cb397e$857e2390$9201a8c0@portajara> > Do you think it would work to get a bluetooth serial interface for the > VT125, or would there be no way to induce the phone to pair up to that > for a virtual 'comport'? Look for SEMA (or SENA?) bluetooth adapters From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Wed Aug 11 12:54:16 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 14:54:16 -0300 Subject: SparcBook Tadpole References: <992230.97947.qm@web52604.mail.re2.yahoo.com>, , <4C60BEAC.5080609@neurotica.com> <4C62D395.2030104@neurotica.com><09b801cb3978$eb904330$9201a8c0@portajara> <4C62DEA0.8020908@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <0a2f01cb397e$83870e80$9201a8c0@portajara> > Oh, I'd love that; the whole "experts-exchange.com" domain would > finally hit the bit bucket from my browser's perspective. Please let me > know the name of this add-on when you can? SurfClarity! https://addons.mozilla.org/pt-BR/firefox/addon/12305/ This is essential for me. I excluded many of the sales and spam sites. I wish it had a better import/export excluded site list ;) From dm561 at torfree.net Wed Aug 11 14:12:26 2010 From: dm561 at torfree.net (MikeS) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 14:12:26 -0500 Subject: GET LAMP is here References: Message-ID: Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 12:38:36 -0400 From: Dave McGuire Subject: Re: GET LAMP is here On 8/11/10 12:28 PM, Richard wrote: >>> Since you choose to brand my comments as bigotry, something for which >>> we both seem to be known, [...] >> >> Actually its just you. > Not so much, actually. I'm usually the one who pops up complaining >about Windows, and you're usually the one who pops up contradicting it. > But hey, it's all in good fun. > -Dave ------------------ Hmm, let's see... "A bigot is a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices." Gotta admit, that sounds like you all right, at least in this context. So, in your view someone who objects to bigotry is also a bigot? Interesting logic... @ Richard: Give it up. No point in arguing with folks who have a need to tell us at every opportunity that they're smarter, better, whatever, than all those Windows lusers out there; just smile tolerantly and ignore them. We know who *really* "gets" more, MS or 'nix types, don't we...? But hey, it's all in good fun. mike From IanK at vulcan.com Wed Aug 11 13:23:24 2010 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 11:23:24 -0700 Subject: VAX on a cell phone In-Reply-To: <201008111348.55451.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <201008111317.10868.pat@computer-refuge.org> <201008111348.55451.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Patrick Finnegan > Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 2010 10:49 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: VAX on a cell phone > > On Wednesday 11 August 2010, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > On 8/11/10, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > > > In that vein, I have spent some time over the past week or so > > > setting up my cell phone (an HTC Evo running Android) to emulate a > > > VAX by running SIMH... And then using a VT125 for its console: > > > > > > http://worldofvax.blogspot.com/2010/08/htc-evo-and-vt125.html > > > > > > Enjoy the insanity! > > > > Nice. It's handy that you have the terminal servers on hand - I'd be > > scrounging for a way to get the bits from the terminal to the phone > > and vice versa. > > > > Do you think it would work to get a bluetooth serial interface for > > the VT125, or would there be no way to induce the phone to pair up > > to that for a virtual 'comport'? > > Sounds interesting. I've never played with BT stuff, but it's just a > Linux environment. With enough effort, you could probably get it to > work, but with Simh, it's easier to have something that just can telnet > to a particular TCP port on the phone. > > Maybe I'll try to find some sort of BT serial dongle to try it out. :) > > Pat > -- > Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ > The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org This is extremely cool. About a month ago, I bought an "aPad" - a 7" tablet running Android. I can't wait to run this on my aPad! It has a *nix shell and both soft keyboard and USB, which will either simplify or complicate the UI. :-) Great job, Pat. -- Ian From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Aug 11 13:35:44 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 14:35:44 -0400 Subject: GET LAMP is here In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C62ED80.3000605@neurotica.com> On 8/11/10 3:12 PM, MikeS wrote: > Give it up. No point in arguing with folks who have a need to tell us at > every opportunity that they're smarter, better, whatever, than all those > Windows lusers out there; just smile tolerantly and ignore them. Oh, never once have I asserted that. Again the fanboys choose to twist my words in an effort to marginalize any statement disparaging Windows. This isn't about ME, it's about Microsoft fanboys who pipe up and deny the existence of the troubles that damn near everyone has with that product line. This doesn't make ME any better, either in reality or in my own mind. So, envision yourself as someone who has personally cared very much for cars and car technology all your life, has seen such fads come and go, and has a fiscal and professional responsibility to use and sell what works. Now, if you knew of a group of near-religious devotees to a particular brand of car that was widely known to regularly catch fire while driving down the street in nearly all situations, so blind in their devotion that they loudly assert that these failures don't exist when the whole world sees them, how would you react? I poke fun at the Microsoft-can-do-no-wrong crowd (which I was doing at the start of this thread, because Will Donzelli amusingly suggested that UNIX guys don't get laid) because they're very entertaining when they keep pointing at the blue sky screaming that it's red, over and over and over again, ad infinitum, ad nausem. So, no, this is not about me, and I'm sorry, I'm not going to allow you to label it as such. I'm trying to explain myself here, not justify my position...I have no need to do the latter, while doing the former seems necessary when people try to dismiss an argument by restating it incorrectly. In the interest of on-topicness (topicicity?) I will drop this thread if you guys will. I like and respect most everyone here, and I don't really enjoy pooping in my own yard. I regret that this has gone this far, but I could not let certain statements stand. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Aug 11 13:37:07 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 11:37:07 -0700 Subject: SparcBook Tadpole In-Reply-To: References: <992230.97947.qm@web52604.mail.re2.yahoo.com>, , <4C60BEAC.5080609@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4C62EDD3.3090405@brouhaha.com> On 08/11/2010 07:37 AM, dwight elvey wrote: > With the help of Jim S and Dave McGuire, I got my Spacrbook working. > It does have an issue. It says the clock it not working and needs to be > set. I opened is up to clean any remaining KOH from leaky NiCads > and saw it had one of those MK48T02B chips in it. > I tried doing a search on google for anyone hacking these chips > to replace the battery but all I got were chip sales. > ST absorbed Mostek some years back, so the prefix changed from MK to M, but they're still made. You can get a brand new M48T02 from Digikey for $20.10: http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail&name=497-2827-5-ND From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Aug 11 13:44:47 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 14:44:47 -0400 Subject: SparcBook Tadpole In-Reply-To: <4C62EDD3.3090405@brouhaha.com> References: <992230.97947.qm@web52604.mail.re2.yahoo.com>, , <4C60BEAC.5080609@neurotica.com> <4C62EDD3.3090405@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4C62EF9F.5050108@neurotica.com> On 8/11/10 2:37 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > On 08/11/2010 07:37 AM, dwight elvey wrote: >> With the help of Jim S and Dave McGuire, I got my Spacrbook working. >> It does have an issue. It says the clock it not working and needs to be >> set. I opened is up to clean any remaining KOH from leaky NiCads >> and saw it had one of those MK48T02B chips in it. >> I tried doing a search on google for anyone hacking these chips >> to replace the battery but all I got were chip sales. >> > ST absorbed Mostek some years back, so the prefix changed from MK to M, > but they're still made. You can get a brand new M48T02 from Digikey for > $20.10: > > http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail&name=497-2827-5-ND Note that an nvramrc may be required for these newer parts to work in some Suns. I don't recall how this came up, but it was in my notes from about ten years ago. Here's what you'd need to do at OBP: ok nvedit 0:probe-all 1:install-console 2:banner 3:boot 6:^C ok nvstore ok setenv use-nvramrc? true -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From shumaker at att.net Wed Aug 11 13:52:32 2010 From: shumaker at att.net (steve shumaker) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 14:52:32 -0400 Subject: SparcBook Tadpole In-Reply-To: <4C62DEA0.8020908@neurotica.com> References: <992230.97947.qm@web52604.mail.re2.yahoo.com>, , <4C60BEAC.5080609@neurotica.com> <4C62D395.2030104@neurotica.com> <09b801cb3978$eb904330$9201a8c0@portajara> <4C62DEA0.8020908@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4C62F170.7000702@att.net> yes! definitely update this with more details! Steve On 8/11/2010 1:32 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 8/11/10 1:09 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > >>> I've seen pages documenting this, but that was years ago. The chip >>> sales sites (for companies who may or may not actually HAVE the chips >>> they're trying to sell, grumble) have certainly swamped that stuff, as >>> you've found. I suggest progressive google search refinement to find >>> the right stuff, as I know it's out there. >>> >> There is an add-on for firefox that you can isolate entire sites or >> sections of sites on google search. I use it at home, in my desktop. >> Unfortunately my desktop is still stored (I may remember you I just >> moved to Sao Paulo). But I'll try to look for it this week >> > Oh, I'd love that; the whole "experts-exchange.com" domain would > finally hit the bit bucket from my browser's perspective. Please let me > know the name of this add-on when you can? > > -Dave > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 11 13:00:11 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 19:00:11 +0100 (BST) Subject: GET LAMP is here In-Reply-To: <085201cb3957$1e58dfb0$9201a8c0@portajara> from "Alexandre Souza - Listas" at Aug 11, 10 07:07:50 am Message-ID: > > > -Dave, not feeling particularly hospitable today > > Get a rubber duck and one of that baseball bats made of foam. It is nice > to make a bad day in a funny day :) The mind boggles.... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 11 12:36:58 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 18:36:58 +0100 (BST) Subject: New acquisition... In-Reply-To: from "Mark Davidson" at Aug 10, 10 12:37:11 pm Message-ID: > > One thing to be aware of. The video board cna use wither 4116s or 4164s > > -- 16 of either, all must be the same type. There are some obvious links > > to move if you upgrade the RAM (if you don't shift them, you'll ruin the > > 4164s by applying 12V to them!), but there are also some decoupling > > capacitors that _must_ be removed if you use 4164s. If not, you get ome > > odd corruption after the screen has scrolled a few times. Don't ask how I > > found this out... > > VERY good to know... thank you. The point is that one pin of the DRAM goes from +5V power to the A7 address input. In the former case (4116s), it needs decoupling, in the latter, hacing around 1uF of capacitance to ground _really_ screws up the timing... The problem is that (as ever), dcoupling capacitors are not shown in the scheamtics, so it took me some time to realise what was going on. Incidentally, there are 2 versions of the video board .The later one has a 40 pin gate array chip containing logic that was all TTL on the olderone. Alas both mine are the later type. > My understanding is that Valdocs 2 was written in Forth, and Valdocs 3 I heard a Threaded Interpretted Language, not spccifically Forth. But I can;t comment further -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 11 12:44:13 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 18:44:13 +0100 (BST) Subject: GET LAMP is here In-Reply-To: <20100810125109.M61892@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Aug 10, 10 01:32:05 pm Message-ID: > > On Mon, 9 Aug 2010, Gene Buckle wrote: > > Well frankly, if I had any idea that you'd go Old Man McClusky on me while > > waving your cane in my face and raving about these damn kids, I just may > > have. Unfortunately I constantly forget that you like to party like it's > > 1979. > > HELL, YES!! You damn kids today have no clue how to party. If a 'party' is what I think it is, I'' jsut stick to fixing my classic computers ;-) > Herpes was the worst incurable STD in those days. Oh no... back then 'STD' meant 'Subscriber Trunk Dialing' and nothing mroe :-) > Who is Old Man McClusky? Maybe he'd like to come along. You know you've been hardware-hackign too long when all you can think of is the Quine McClusky minimalisation method... > > it should be added that I'm not terribly understanding of peoples' > > self-configured difficulty. You could easily build a machine that does Actually,, could I _easily_ build such a macnine? Given that I don't have one, or anything like it, I can't use CPLDs or FGPAs (the logic compilers require such a machine to run on, and the chips are not fully docuemtned so toy can't write your own for whatever machine you happen to have). Building a machine that runs a graphical browser using only stock chips doesnt sound totally tivial/. > > all these new-fangled and modern webby things and yet you grump at ME > > because you have no way to copy & paste a url into any kind of browser. > > That is s'posedly comparably easy to reading "it's a documentary about > Adventure"? Even thoguh I am pretty fast with a soldering iron, Isuspect I could read that centence rather quicker htan I could solder in a 40 pin DIL chip... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 11 12:50:09 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 18:50:09 +0100 (BST) Subject: GET LAMP is here In-Reply-To: from "Rich Alderson" at Aug 10, 10 04:05:09 pm Message-ID: > >> You could easily build a machine that does all these=20 > > > I assume you also can't understand why people spend many hours making a=20 > > mechanical closk from scratch when a $10 quartz clock is much more=20 > > accurate. Or why people learn to play a musical instrument rather than=20 > > just listening to a record/tape/CD. Or why people paint pictures when=20 > > there are plenty of cameras around. [...] > However, I took the comment you quoted to have an intrinsic "in addition" > rather than the intrinsic "instead" you saw. I am not sure we understnad each other... My reply was to the comment that the OP couldn't understand why I insisted on using a classic computer (text display, dialup connection, whatever). I was commenting that plenty of other people do things that in a sense make life difficult for them, but I assuem they have reasons for doing that ('I enjoy it' is a perfectly good reason, BTW). I have reasons for using my much-hacked IBM 5170, whcih I have mentioned here many times before. You don;t have to agree with them, sure. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 11 12:57:47 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 18:57:47 +0100 (BST) Subject: New acquisition... In-Reply-To: <4C624DD7.5040503@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at Aug 11, 10 00:14:31 am Message-ID: > > Tony Duell wrote: > > Nice machine. The QX10 is one of my favourite desktop CP/M machines. The > > video system is based round a 7220, the serial port (IIRC) uses a 7201. > > > Using a uPD7201 for the serial port is a strike against it. High speed It depends on what you wnat to use that serial portr for. IIRC the s7201 has various synchronous modes that can be very useful > modems that transport asynchronous data over a synchronous modulation, > such as V.22, V.22bis, V.32, etc., have to use V.14 procedures to handle > cases where the transmitting device is overspeed relative to the > modulation, or the transmitting modem is overspeed relative to the > receiving side. In the former case, up to one out of ten stop bits get > dropped over the modulation, and reinserted on the receiving side. When > that happens, or in the case that the transmitting system's modulation > is faster than the receiving side (due to crystal tolerances, etc.), the > receiving side is allowed to shave off a portion of each stop bit on the > serial interface. Right,,, Now that I did not know. However, I would not think a QX10 was a natural machine to connect such a modem to, -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 11 14:08:40 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 20:08:40 +0100 (BST) Subject: GET LAMP is here In-Reply-To: from "Ian King" at Aug 11, 10 09:54:38 am Message-ID: > > > Of course it's bloat - but it is a machine that one can easily get And I thought the terminal in bits on my bench at the meoment was over-comples, what with a Z80A, 40K ROM, 24 16K*1 DRAMs, and around 150 TTL parts, but anyway... > Of course, shipping for, say a hundred VT520s is significantly higher than = > for those modern replacements - even when you add in the (now LCD) screen. = Which reminds me... Somewhere I have a VT100 clone -- a clone right down the setup screens -- using an LCD display. It's fairly old (simple mono LCD), I bought it about 10 years ago and it wasnt' new then. I must dig it out > Oh that's right, you can just go down to Best Buy (which rarely is) to buy= > the screens.... =20 > > That's not to say I don't have a personal preference for the originals - I = > have mostly VT420s at home, and we're refurbishing a bunch of VT100s and VT= > 52s here at work. -- Ian=20 I wish I had a job where poeple refurbished classic terminals... -tony From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Aug 11 14:34:46 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 12:34:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: GET LAMP was here In-Reply-To: References: <20100810125109.M61892@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20100811121824.D1024@shell.lmi.net> > > > Unfortunately I constantly forget that you like to party like it's > > > 1979. > > HELL, YES!! ? ? You damn kids today have no clue how to party. > > Herpes was the worst incurable STD in those days. > > I will gladly find and give John Titor a 5100 (with APL AND BASIC) > > if he will just drop me off in 1979. ?I'll throw in a 360 > > for a one-way to the 1960s. ?That's for one-way. On Wed, 11 Aug 2010, Liam Proven wrote: > Ooooh oooh ooh! Can I come? Please? When the '60s ended, I was nearly > 3. I missed all the fun. Sure! If Titor can take us, we can all go. You also missed out on most of the "Cold War" - Kruschev being refused access to Disneyland, the Cuban missile crisis, fallout shelters, the constant fear of total annhilation, and the resulting "cutting loose" of the younger generation. > > For round-trip, all he gets is Valtrep. > [Mirth] Oh, come on. We can give him a PDP/11 running OS/2, at least! I don't wanna have to come right back! I wanna take 50 years to get back here from 1960! 'course even 1979 would be fun, to relive Apple, TRS80, and PET. Z80, 8080, 6502. Source and Compuserve. Hard sector V Soft Sector! Much better religious battles than the wimpy WINDOZE V LINUX squabbles that we have today. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From ragooman at gmail.com Wed Aug 11 14:45:41 2010 From: ragooman at gmail.com (Dan Roganti) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 15:45:41 -0400 Subject: GET LAMP is here In-Reply-To: References: <20100810125109.M61892@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Wed, Aug 11, 2010 at 1:44 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > > You know you've been hardware-hackign too long when all you can think of is > the Quine McClusky minimalisation method... > and whether P?NP :) =Dan -- --http://www.vintagecomputer.net/ragooman/ From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Aug 11 14:46:53 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 15:46:53 -0400 Subject: an old program, was Re: GET LAMP was here In-Reply-To: <20100811121824.D1024@shell.lmi.net> References: <20100810125109.M61892@shell.lmi.net> <20100811121824.D1024@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4C62FE2D.8010805@neurotica.com> On 8/11/10 3:34 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > 'course even 1979 would be fun, to relive Apple, TRS80, and PET. Z80, > 8080, 6502. Source and Compuserve. Hard sector V Soft Sector! Much > better religious battles than the wimpy WINDOZE V LINUX squabbles that > we have today. And someone apparently assumed I was talking about Linux! ;) Does anyone here remember a program called "The Last One" that was advertised in full-page ads in BYTE? I believe it was a code generator of some sort. I'll go digging through magazines to see if I can find it, but it popped into my head when I read the paragraph above. Does anyone know anything about it? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Wed Aug 11 14:59:35 2010 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 21:59:35 +0200 Subject: SparcBook Tadpole In-Reply-To: <4C62D395.2030104@neurotica.com> References: <992230.97947.qm@web52604.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <4C60BEAC.5080609@neurotica.com> <4C62D395.2030104@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20100811215935.788e4ce4.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Wed, 11 Aug 2010 12:45:09 -0400 Dave McGuire wrote: > > I tried doing a search on google for anyone hacking these chips > > to replace the battery but all I got were chip sales. > I've seen pages documenting this, but that was years ago. I do this hack this way: File down the top of the chip at the pin 12 / 13 end until you get to the top of the old battery. The top of the battery is the + contact. Now carefully carve out the wire that goes from the top down into the resin. A dremel like tool with a small milling head will do best. When you dug out enough of the + wire from the old battery to solder somthing to it stop. Now cut the + wire loose at the very top of the chip, immediately at the old battery. Solder one end of a wire to the wire that goes down into the chip and the other end to the new battery. Solder an other wire to pin 12 of the chip as this is GND and the other end to - pole of the new battery. I remember one geek meeting several years back where I did this surgery to the NVRAMS of several Suns from my friends... Those where happy fun days. :-) -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From blkline at attglobal.net Wed Aug 11 15:17:45 2010 From: blkline at attglobal.net (Barry L. Kline) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 16:17:45 -0400 Subject: GET LAMP is here In-Reply-To: References: <20100810125109.M61892@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4C630569.4010700@attglobal.net> Dan Roganti wrote: > and whether P?NP :) Funny you should mention that. I just got this link today: http://www.infoworld.com/t/code-analysis/computer-science-breakthrough-the-end-p-np-583?source=IFWNLE_nlt_blogs_2010-08-11 In case the URL gets munged, here's the short version: http://tinyurl.com/2cz4bet Barry From ragooman at gmail.com Wed Aug 11 15:58:04 2010 From: ragooman at gmail.com (Dan Roganti) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 16:58:04 -0400 Subject: GET LAMP is here In-Reply-To: <4C630569.4010700@attglobal.net> References: <20100810125109.M61892@shell.lmi.net> <4C630569.4010700@attglobal.net> Message-ID: On Wed, Aug 11, 2010 at 4:17 PM, Barry L. Kline wrote: > Dan Roganti wrote: > > > and whether P?NP :) > > > Funny you should mention that. I just got this link today: > > > http://www.infoworld.com/t/code-analysis/computer-science-breakthrough-the-end-p-np-583?source=IFWNLE_nlt_blogs_2010-08-11 > > In case the URL gets munged, here's the short version: > > http://tinyurl.com/2cz4bet > > yes, I saw that too. I just had to bring it up :) But it hasn't been peer-reviewed yet. =Dan -- --http://www.vintagecomputer.net/ragooman/ From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Aug 11 15:59:02 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 13:59:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: GET LAMP is here In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20100811134041.A1024@shell.lmi.net> > > > Well frankly, if I had any idea that you'd go Old Man McClusky on me while > > > waving your cane in my face and raving about these damn kids, I just may > > > have. Unfortunately I constantly forget that you like to party like it's > > > 1979. > > HELL, YES!! You damn kids today have no clue how to party. On Wed, 11 Aug 2010, Tony Duell wrote: > If a 'party' is what I think it is, I'' jsut stick to fixing my classic > computers ;-) In those days, parties were much more varied than they are now. The first time that I played Adventure (see! we don't know how to stay off-topic!), the first time that I saw an 8080 or Z80, my first hands-on with S100, flight simulator (pre-release?) on an Apple, were all at parties in the San Francisco area in the mid to late 1970s. > > Herpes was the worst incurable STD in those days. > Oh no... back then 'STD' meant 'Subscriber Trunk Dialing' and nothing > mroe :-) There were many 'STD' abreviations. Such as "standard", "SeT Direction", "State Transition Diagram". But sexually transmitted diseases were not, and didn't need to be, a major worry in those days. > > Who is Old Man McClusky? Maybe he'd like to come along. > You know you've been hardware-hackign too long when all you can think of is > the Quine McClusky minimalisation method... Then he probably WOULD like to come along. > Building a machine that runs a graphical browser using only stock chips > doesnt sound totally tivial/. Surely a graphical browser, (if NOT done in a High Level Language) could be written to run on a 5150 with CGA. > Even thoguh I am pretty fast with a soldering iron, Isuspect I could > read that centence rather quicker htan I could solder in a 40 pin DIL chip... I'm not as good with soldering. I could read that sentence in less time than a single pin of the 40 pin DIP. But, I could finish soldering the 40 pin socket (marginal soldering skills) before this dial-up would be displaying the page. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Aug 11 16:11:24 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 14:11:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: an old program, was Re: GET LAMP was here In-Reply-To: <4C62FE2D.8010805@neurotica.com> References: <20100810125109.M61892@shell.lmi.net> <20100811121824.D1024@shell.lmi.net> <4C62FE2D.8010805@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20100811140025.V1024@shell.lmi.net> > > 'course even 1979 would be fun, to relive Apple, TRS80, and PET. Z80, > > 8080, 6502. Source and Compuserve. Hard sector V Soft Sector! Much > > better religious battles than the wimpy WINDOZE V LINUX squabbles that > > we have today. On Wed, 11 Aug 2010, Dave McGuire wrote: > And someone apparently assumed I was talking about Linux! ;) Not really. I just oversimplified to avoid offending some of the bigots :-) > Does anyone here remember a program called "The Last One" that was > advertised in full-page ads in BYTE? I believe it was a code generator > of some sort. I'll go digging through magazines to see if I can find > it, but it popped into my head when I read the paragraph above. Does > anyone know anything about it? I don't know anything about it other than the thoroughly obnoxious hype when it was introduced at about the fifth or sixth West Coast Compuer Faire. My comment then was essentially, "They won't keep the promise in their name, there will still be more of those. Too many people think that what everybody else wants is just a trivial variant of what they want, and think that they can handle everybody's needs by just making their program a little more general. Most of them seem to be very limited database programs, where a resulting "program" is just obfuscated code for your query or report request. Will RPG never go away?" Yeah, I was grumpy before I got old; or maybe I've always been old. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From dm561 at torfree.net Wed Aug 11 17:35:33 2010 From: dm561 at torfree.net (MikeS) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 17:35:33 -0500 Subject: GET LAMP is here References: Message-ID: <11EED621D12E4C02BCA581B1A706B6F5@vl420mt> Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 14:35:44 -0400 From: Dave McGuire Subject: Re: GET LAMP is here On 8/11/10 3:12 PM, MikeS wrote: > Give it up. No point in arguing with folks who have a need to tell us at > every opportunity that they're smarter, better, whatever, than all those > Windows lusers out there; just smile tolerantly and ignore them. Oh, never once have I asserted that. Again the fanboys choose to twist my words in an effort to marginalize any statement disparaging Windows. This isn't about ME, it's about Microsoft fanboys who pipe up and deny the existence of the troubles that damn near everyone has with that product line. This doesn't make ME any better, either in reality or in my own mind. So, envision yourself as someone who has personally cared very much for cars and car technology all your life, has seen such fads come and go, and has a fiscal and professional responsibility to use and sell what works. Now, if you knew of a group of near-religious devotees to a particular brand of car that was widely known to regularly catch fire while driving down the street in nearly all situations, so blind in their devotion that they loudly assert that these failures don't exist when the whole world sees them, how would you react? I poke fun at the Microsoft-can-do-no-wrong crowd (which I was doing at the start of this thread, because Will Donzelli amusingly suggested that UNIX guys don't get laid) because they're very entertaining when they keep pointing at the blue sky screaming that it's red, over and over and over again, ad infinitum, ad nausem. So, no, this is not about me, and I'm sorry, I'm not going to allow you to label it as such. I'm trying to explain myself here, not justify my position...I have no need to do the latter, while doing the former seems necessary when people try to dismiss an argument by restating it incorrectly. In the interest of on-topicness (topicicity?) I will drop this thread if you guys will. I like and respect most everyone here, and I don't really enjoy pooping in my own yard. I regret that this has gone this far, but I could not let certain statements stand. -Dave ------------ >Again the fanboys choose to twist my words in an effort to marginalize any >statement disparaging Windows. You really are tooooo funny... You talk about "fanboys" (presumably a derogatory term that includes Richard and me) twisting your words? I think Richard (and I) just said that we're getting a little tired of your endless "Windows is crap" remarks; I didn't hear anyone say that Microsoft can do no wrong, that there aren't any problems with the product line (as there are with pretty well any software), or even that the sky is blue (or red). To use your analogy, if for whatever reason I owned one of those cars you mentioned and had perhaps even made the necessary modifications to prevent it from catching fire, I'd also get pretty tired of your telling me what a PoS it is every time you saw me driving it. What I do read over and over again, ad infinitum, ad nauseam, are your puerile criticisms of MS and dismissive insults of anyone who suggests that their products are perhaps not the complete and total PoS that you keep insisting, not to mention your recurring mention of those 'converts' whom you've shown the true and only way to the light... ;-) Now that *does* sound like a fanboy... >This isn't about ME... Yeah, actually it is, at least it's about these tiresome posts and insults of yours. But it's all in fun, right? mike From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Aug 11 16:43:54 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 17:43:54 -0400 Subject: GET LAMP is here In-Reply-To: <11EED621D12E4C02BCA581B1A706B6F5@vl420mt> References: <11EED621D12E4C02BCA581B1A706B6F5@vl420mt> Message-ID: <4C63199A.6020509@neurotica.com> On 8/11/10 6:35 PM, MikeS wrote: > To use your analogy, if for whatever reason I owned one of those cars you > mentioned and had perhaps even made the necessary modifications to prevent > it from catching fire, I'd also get pretty tired of your telling me what a > PoS it is every time you saw me driving it. Ok, your point is well taken. I will try to pipe down on the subject. Though I'd love to know of the necessary modifications required to keep this particular car from catching fire, and I promise to do my best to stay away from the subject of why those modifications are needed in the first place. If you've managed to fix Windows such that it behaves well and is reliable, a whole lot of people must be busting down your door to hire you. If you can indeed fix it, then hell, *I* might even run it. > What I do read over and over again, ad infinitum, ad nauseam, are your > puerile criticisms of MS and dismissive insults of anyone who suggests that > their products are perhaps not the complete and total PoS that you keep > insisting, So you think I'm making it up? Why on earth would I do that? > not to mention your recurring mention of those 'converts' whom > you've shown the true and only way to the light... ;-) Quite a few other ways, actually. I don't push people toward any particular platform. The closest I get to that is listening to requirements and suggesting a target platform when I'm asked. > Now that *does* sound like a fanboy... Of what, exactly? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From jfoust at threedee.com Wed Aug 11 17:01:22 2010 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 17:01:22 -0500 Subject: GET LAMP is here In-Reply-To: <4C63199A.6020509@neurotica.com> References: <11EED621D12E4C02BCA581B1A706B6F5@vl420mt> <4C63199A.6020509@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <201008112202.o7BM1x9B038667@billY.EZWIND.NET> At 04:43 PM 8/11/2010, Dave McGuire wrote: >> Now that *does* sound like a fanboy... > > Of what, exactly? You're clearly just one of those fans of reliable systems that are easier to maintain than others in the market. If you were a real geek, you'd want to devote your frigging' mental life to memorizing the arcane details of systems and networks that are managed dramatically differently every three years. Me? I wish I could erase this recurring fantasy of tying Bill Gates to a chair, removing his glasses, and requiring him to enter license keys over and over, having the license key be rejected, then calling activation support, then touch-tone entering two different longer keys... - John From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Aug 11 17:02:53 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 15:02:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: GET LAMP is here In-Reply-To: <11EED621D12E4C02BCA581B1A706B6F5@vl420mt> References: <11EED621D12E4C02BCA581B1A706B6F5@vl420mt> Message-ID: <20100811145039.G1024@shell.lmi.net> > they keep pointing at the blue sky screaming that it's red, over and > over and over again, ad infinitum, ad nausem. Don't you mean "blue SCREEN"? Sorry, can't resist something like that. My current needs are simple, and I can get XP to do them quite adequately. Which is good, because I spend a lot of time on machines owned by the college, and I am not authorized to make any of the changes that I would like. EVERY OS, including WINDOZE does some things well, and some things poorly. When MICROS~1 made design choices that favored "multimedia" and dancing kangaroos over security, they were catering to a specific audience, and those choices DO seem to be what the bulk of the non-computer literate general public want. There have been times when I have wanted to do some things for which WINDOZE is not well suited. And sometimes it is just fun to play with other stuff. Several of my home machines are on MS-DOS 6.2x. I would like to put a larger drive into my OQO, and set up multiple OS's on it, with a boot menu for some form of Linux, OSX, and XP. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From alexeyt at freeshell.org Wed Aug 11 17:29:26 2010 From: alexeyt at freeshell.org (Alexey Toptygin) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 22:29:26 +0000 (UTC) Subject: GET LAMP is here In-Reply-To: <20100811134041.A1024@shell.lmi.net> References: <20100811134041.A1024@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 11 Aug 2010, Fred Cisin wrote: >> Building a machine that runs a graphical browser using only stock chips >> doesnt sound totally tivial/. > > Surely a graphical browser, (if NOT done in a High Level Language) could > be written to run on a 5150 with CGA. I don't know about that... Google is not what I'd call a graphics-intensive site, but a single page of results is 64k html, and about as much again in images. You can eat up 640k real fast that way, and that doesn't include any of the code you need for a TCP/IP stack, stub DNS resolver, parsing HTML (and let's not forget the memory cost of intermediate representations, unless you want to pay for a full reparse every time there's an exposure event) applying CSS, layout, rendering any number of image formats, input handling, forms, cookies... Let's not even think about supporting ECMA script, without which you won't be able to use any web 2.0 sites, and I shudder to think of what you'd have to do to try to run flash on an on-topic machine. I've got 2 text-mostly pages open ATM, and Firefox has an RSS of 100M; even if that's 90% wasted (which I very much doubt) then you still need 10M to hold the useful bits (not counting the filesystem and IP stack bits that live in the kernel and aren't counted against Firefox's RSS). Alexey From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Aug 11 17:34:48 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 15:34:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: GET LAMP is here In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20100811153204.L1024@shell.lmi.net> > Hmm, let's see... "A bigot is a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted > to his or her own opinions and prejudices." A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject. - Winston Churchill . . . and even fewer people will change the SUBJECT: line From dkelvey at hotmail.com Wed Aug 11 17:38:30 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 15:38:30 -0700 Subject: SparcBook Tadpole In-Reply-To: References: <992230.97947.qm@web52604.mail.re2.yahoo.com>, , , , <4C60BEAC.5080609@neurotica.com>, , <08fa01cb3967$3f6269a0$9201a8c0@portajara>, Message-ID: > From: IanK at vulcan.com > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Alexandre Souza - Listas > > Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 2010 7:51 AM > > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: SparcBook Tadpole > > > > > I tried doing a search on google for anyone hacking these chips > > >to replace the battery but all I got were chip sales. > > > > Easy for us :) > > > > The chip is a plastic box. In this box there is a common chip, and > > some > > batteries on top. Cut the box with a plier and you'll see the > > batteries, it > > is that simple. Change the batteries, and be happy :) > > > > I recently replaced one of those parts in my Sparcstation Voyager. The part from DigiKey was only about USD $20, which I figured was a better deal than my time spent grinding and cutting and splicing.... -- Ian Hi My problem is that I don't know if I can restore the information in it. The early Sparcbooks didn't have openboot. I'm a little worried about such bringup. There is a fellow on ebay that has these and claims that the batteries are unused( about $20 plus tax and shipping ). I have some empty space in the machine. I'd rather use that for a battery bracket with a standard button cell. If I had two brackets with small resistors, I could even change batteries on the fly. If the case can be poped off, that would be great. If not, I may revert to the dremel. I can put it in an external socket and power it from a supply to keep it alive while operating. I've written down the hostname and ethernet address so it is minimum risk. The web page says if the clock doesn't work, replace the chip. I'm not sure if that is whats wrong. I've not tried to reset the clock yet to see if it continues to run. I do know that the clock uses more power than the RAM and may just be the straw that breaks the NVRAMs back. Using an old battery device from digikey is just prolonging the eventual death. If it isn't a current manufacture it is already part dead when you get it. Dwight From IanK at vulcan.com Wed Aug 11 17:43:33 2010 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 15:43:33 -0700 Subject: SparcBook Tadpole In-Reply-To: References: <992230.97947.qm@web52604.mail.re2.yahoo.com>, , , , <4C60BEAC.5080609@neurotica.com>, , <08fa01cb3967$3f6269a0$9201a8c0@portajara>, Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of dwight elvey > Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 2010 3:39 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: RE: SparcBook Tadpole > > > > > > > From: IanK at vulcan.com > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > > > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Alexandre Souza - Listas > > > Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 2010 7:51 AM > > > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > > Subject: Re: SparcBook Tadpole > > > > > > > I tried doing a search on google for anyone hacking these chips > > > >to replace the battery but all I got were chip sales. > > > > > > Easy for us :) > > > > > > The chip is a plastic box. In this box there is a common chip, and > > > some > > > batteries on top. Cut the box with a plier and you'll see the > > > batteries, it > > > is that simple. Change the batteries, and be happy :) > > > > > > > I recently replaced one of those parts in my Sparcstation Voyager. > The part from DigiKey was only about USD $20, which I figured was a > better deal than my time spent grinding and cutting and splicing.... -- > Ian > > Hi > My problem is that I don't know if I can restore the information in > it. > The early Sparcbooks didn't have openboot. I'm a little worried > about such bringup. There is a fellow on ebay that has these and claims > that the batteries are unused( about $20 plus tax and shipping ). > I have some empty space in the machine. I'd rather use that for > a battery bracket with a standard button cell. > If I had two brackets with small resistors, I could even change > batteries > on the fly. > If the case can be poped off, that would be great. If not, I may > revert > to the dremel. I can put it in an external socket and power it from > a supply to keep it alive while operating. > I've written down the hostname and ethernet address so it is minimum > risk. > The web page says if the clock doesn't work, replace the chip. I'm > not sure if that is whats wrong. I've not tried to reset the clock yet > to see if it continues to run. I do know that the clock uses more > power than the RAM and may just be the straw that breaks the > NVRAMs back. > Using an old battery device from digikey is just prolonging the > eventual death. If it isn't a current manufacture it is already part > dead > when you get it. > Dwight > But that describes everything we talk about here that uses magtape, disk packs, 7400-series TTL, ASICs, (god help us) ECL, et tedious cetera. Yes, in another few years my Voyager will have a dead NVRAM again and I may or may not be able to get another chip. I might not even be able to get a new battery: that's a problem with my Minolta SRT series SLRs, where the excellent TTL metering doesn't work anymore because it was designed to be powered by mercury cells that I can't buy anymore. If you want an appliance, yes, it's important to not let yourself fall too far behind the curve. But if you're a manly man (or a womanly woman) and seek great adventure and even greater glory (and perhaps even an advantage with members of the gender of your choice), you'll geek-up and do what it takes to keep your Olde Beaste running. BTW, I suspect the reason they said, "If the clock doesn't work, change the chip" is just because that's the simplest symptom to identify. And there's lots of info around about how to bring up a new NVRAM. -- Ian From bdamer at digitalspace.com Mon Aug 9 13:17:40 2010 From: bdamer at digitalspace.com (Bruce Damer) Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2010 11:17:40 -0700 Subject: Anyone got a GRiDlite 1040, Sharp MZ-200? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201008091817.o79IHp0k096329@billY.EZWIND.NET> Anyone here have a GRiDlite 1040 I could acquire or borrow for a project here at the Digibarn? Also anyone got documents for a Sharp laptop (MZ-200) which I cannot find in my mountain of documentation. Bruce From csquared3 at tx.rr.com Mon Aug 9 14:42:02 2010 From: csquared3 at tx.rr.com (Charlie Carothers) Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2010 14:42:02 -0500 Subject: OT - sort of Message-ID: <4C605A0A.3040807@tx.rr.com> Kind folks, I'm pretty sure that some here restore and use vintage computers at least in part in order to be able to play vintage computer games, which is the only thing that makes this post on topic at all. After a bit of research on the web, I find that I'm at least 5 or 6 years behind the times based on some forum discussions of something I just became aware of just yesterday! What triggered all this was that our daughter showed up at the house with this little game controller which she says was bought at WalMart for about USD $20.00. It says "namco" on the front, "PLUG it in & PLAY TV GAMES" on the back. Says 6VDC on the back too, so probably 4 AA batteries. It came with batteries, and I haven't opened it up to explore the insides at all - yet. On the bottom next to the list of games are copyright dates from 1960 to 1983, the best I can tell. There is also a copyright notice on the bottom dated 2004 for JAKKS Pacific, Inc. and a reference to www.jakkstvgames.com. This little gadget has a joystick, a few pushbutton switches, and composite video and a sound output. It allows one to play vintage Ms. Pac-Man, Galaga, Pole Position, Mappy, and Xavious by connecting it to a standard TV's video and audio inputs. I mention this here because I just thought it was really cool to be able to play these vintage games, and some might be in the same uninformed group with me. :-) FWIW, my daughter says there are a number of other similar units with different games, and the web seems to confirm this. Wanting to see if the web site is WOT approved, I googled jakkstvgames.com and it seems to only be referred to by other web sites. I finally got brave and typed it in to the Firefox URL entry and was rewarded with "403 Forbidden" and "You don't have permission to access / on this server." Sounds pretty scary to me. BTW, I have absolutely no connection with this company - whatever it is - Jakks Pacific? It says it is made in China, of course. The thing is plastic, but seems to be remarkably well made for something that only costs 20 bucks. Of course the possibility of hacking it for other purposes never crossed my mind. ;-) Later, Charlie C. From snhirsch at gmail.com Mon Aug 9 16:13:15 2010 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2010 17:13:15 -0400 (EDT) Subject: does anyone know what this is (C64 Snapshot cartridge) In-Reply-To: <347113.16526.qm@web65506.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> References: <347113.16526.qm@web65506.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 8 Aug 2010, Chris M wrote: > http://cgi.ebay.com/Snapshot-64-Cartridge-Commodore-64-/170523686285?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0 > > the seller is too brain dead to describe what it is, despite stating that it's tested and working. > > I seem to have a vague recollection of what this is, but actually I'm > not totally sure. I think that's for cracking copy-protected games. -- From jws at jwsss.com Tue Aug 10 01:37:42 2010 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2010 23:37:42 -0700 Subject: GET LAMP is here In-Reply-To: <4C6085AD.18681.316E52D@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <20100809163517.M21499@shell.lmi.net>, <4C60E2D8.4040301@jetnet.ab.ca> <4C6085AD.18681.316E52D@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4C60F3B6.3060507@jwsss.com> I played it for two years on a 300 or 1200 baud dialup from california to Louisiana on a Silent 700. I come across pages of adventure in boxes from time to time. It was very playable, and I don't know what one would need. Every system I ever had as fast a response to my inputs as I required from the above to the CPM ones on glass, and later PC versions. I still like the recollection of playing it on the Silent 700's personally, but that is just because of having the experience of doing it that way. I know of some others (statute of limitations are expired) that played from Puerto Rico by dialing from a hotel phone (acoustic coupler) to Miami, into Tymnet. connected to Multics in Phoenix to run the Colossal Cave adventure there. I think at one time that system had maybe 1000 copies running at once as well via various networks from around the world. I'll leave you to guess the company, but the sources were ported by the authors in Massachusetts to Multics after the PDP10 version. Still had the session control logic in, but in Multics it could be easily circumvented and you could play anytime. And network time didn't get cheap no matter what time you logged in. (Silent 700 is excuse for being on topic here :-) Jim On 8/9/2010 10:48 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 9 Aug 2010 at 23:25, Ben wrote: > > >> Well I got "THE LAMP". Now to find the cave... and buy the proper 9 >> pin null modem cable if they still make them. I can't keep stealing >> from the PC here. I am just finding playing ADVENTURE on the PDP-8 >> (SBC6120) with a IDE drive just playable for a text game. Did most of >> the people play ADVENTURE on a classic machine or wait for PC version >> or clone of the game. I remember playing a similar game on the COCO II >> but I think it was from Cassette rather than mini-floppy. >> > You mean other than playing it on big iron? Heck, pretty early on, > there was a CP/M version of it--I've got it here on a floppy with > MP/M on it (a good multi-terminal demo). > > Wonder if Chess 3.0 will run on a PDP-8? > > --Chuck > > > From jonas at otter.se Tue Aug 10 03:38:00 2010 From: jonas at otter.se (Jonas Otter) Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2010 08:38:00 +0000 Subject: Pronouncing acronyms (was Re: DEC acronyms) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Concerning dismantling lenses in order to clean helicoids, diaphragm blades etc. you might be interested in Chuck Cole's opinions as expressed in the ManualMinoltaFree Yahoo group. Somehow I imagine you might disagree with him, or else you might explain your method of dealing with the issues he feels so strongly about... /Jonas On Sun, 8 Aug 2010 18:54:37 +0100 (BST), ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > >Fortuately all that goers wrong with the lenses for my cameras is that >the grease goes rock-hard in the focussing helical threads (a pain to >clean out, but possible), and occasionally oil migrates onto the >diaphagm blades and causes them to stick (ditto). No electronics to go >wrong, of course... > >-tony > From jws at jwsss.com Tue Aug 10 17:15:29 2010 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2010 15:15:29 -0700 Subject: GET LAMP is here (3278's) In-Reply-To: References: <022a01cb389c$6fa0e4a0$9201a8c0@portajara> <201008101536.o7AFaHjd020910@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <4C61CF81.7000709@jwsss.com> My last scrounge on 3278's was when I heard some crashing sounds behind the Irvine, Ca Sam's club one saturday. A couple of guys were lobbing 3278's into an empty dumpster. I took the ones which had not been lobbed, along with 5 that had, and all of them worked. There were dents on the cases of the ones from the dumpster, but clear displays. Truely boat anchors, but well built boat anchors. On 8/10/2010 8:39 AM, William Donzelli wrote: >> Up until a few years ago Kaiser Permanente was still using 3270 terminals. >> > Real 3278s? They are getting very thin on the ground. > > -- > Will > > > From snhirsch at gmail.com Wed Aug 11 06:52:03 2010 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 07:52:03 -0400 (EDT) Subject: EPROM programming (27c160's) In-Reply-To: <992230.97947.qm@web52604.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <992230.97947.qm@web52604.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 9 Aug 2010, Mr Ian Primus wrote: > Failing that, does anyone have a suggestion of an EPROM programmer that > I can buy that will program 27c160's. Preferably something that can be > operated from DOS over a parallel or serial port, or better yet, an ISA > card. I purchased an Andromeda Research AR-32A programming system. Best money I ever spent! The base unit covers an enormous number of EPROMs and they have adapters for just about anything else imaginable. Best yet: They will sell you the bare boards for any of the adapters, provide a schematic and let you have at it. Their tech support is superlative. Very knowledgable folks. And, yes, the software runs as a DOS application :-). Steve -- From jws at jwsss.com Wed Aug 11 16:26:43 2010 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 14:26:43 -0700 Subject: SparcBook Tadpole In-Reply-To: References: <992230.97947.qm@web52604.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <4C62D395.2030104@neurotica.com> <201008111257.26329.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <4C631593.6080408@jwsss.com> On 8/11/2010 10:05 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 8/11/10, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > >> First google result for "Sun NVRAM battery replacement": >> >> http://www.bhargavaz.com/nvram/nvram.html >> > Ooh... I've seen that page before, and that technique looks dangerous > (the soldering to the Li battery part). > > The places I've been who supply large numbers of replacement batteries all have a fancy welding rig which they can use to stick a set of bands on any battery, including lithium, by welding. Then solder to that. It may not be as pretty as some of the soldered approaches, but i agree with you, I'm not going to apply solder heat to a lithium battery. It's all about heat not temperature to make them explode. If you're lucky they will have them as Ethan mentions below already in stock. In my case I was going to fix a rechargable razor, and they even said they would do that for free, make up the pack and put it in the unit, they do those all the time. Doubt they get many sparcbooks though, I'd probably do that myself. > I've replaced batteries on "Timekeepers" before, but I either use the > batteries that have solder tabs pre-welded onto them, or use a snap-in > battery carrier and solder the leads from that to the chip. > > -ethan > > > From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Wed Aug 11 18:29:53 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2010 00:29:53 +0100 Subject: EPROM programming (27c160's) In-Reply-To: References: <992230.97947.qm@web52604.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4C633271.3090202@philpem.me.uk> On 11/08/10 12:52, Steven Hirsch wrote: > I purchased an Andromeda Research AR-32A programming system. Best money > I ever spent! The base unit covers an enormous number of EPROMs and they > have adapters for just about anything else imaginable. Best yet: They > will sell you the bare boards for any of the adapters, provide a > schematic and let you have at it. > > Their tech support is superlative. Very knowledgable folks. > > And, yes, the software runs as a DOS application :-). I'm still waiting for an EPROM programmer with Linux software available. I'm actually tempted to do a GAL/fuse-PROM programmer seeing as my GALBlast won't work worth a damn on this machine :( -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Wed Aug 11 18:37:59 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2010 00:37:59 +0100 Subject: SparcBook Tadpole In-Reply-To: <09e801cb397a$b1a84760$9201a8c0@portajara> References: <992230.97947.qm@web52604.mail.re2.yahoo.com><4C62D395.2030104@neurotica.com><201008111257.26329.pat@computer-refuge.org> <09e801cb397a$b1a84760$9201a8c0@portajara> Message-ID: <4C633457.8030706@philpem.me.uk> On 11/08/10 18:18, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > I've done it hundreds of times, you just need to be fast and having a > good solder :P A bit of preparation helps too -- use fine wet/dry paper to sand off the top layer of metal, add a drop of solder, tin the wire, then add flux and solder both together. Of course I prefer doing the same thing, but with solder tags: cut off a piece of nickel shim, drill a small hole in it, buff, solder some wire to the tag, spot-weld the tag to the battery. I built a spot-welder to do this -- basically, it's a bank of capacitors and an SCR. See . -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From dm561 at torfree.net Wed Aug 11 19:38:05 2010 From: dm561 at torfree.net (MikeS) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 19:38:05 -0500 Subject: Bigots & Fanatics - final round References: Message-ID: Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 15:34:48 -0700 (PDT) From: Fred Cisin Subject: Re: GET LAMP is here >> Hmm, let's see... "A bigot is a person obstinately or intolerantly >> devoted >> to his or her own opinions and prejudices." >A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject. - Winston Churchill >. . . and even fewer people will change the SUBJECT: line ------------ Guilty as charged; sorry, I just really enjoy yanking Dave's 'M$ fanboy' chain... But all good things must end, alas... m From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Aug 11 19:10:19 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 20:10:19 -0400 Subject: Bigots & Fanatics - final round In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C633BEB.3030300@neurotica.com> On 8/11/10 8:38 PM, MikeS wrote: >>> Hmm, let's see... "A bigot is a person obstinately or intolerantly >>> devoted >>> to his or her own opinions and prejudices." > >> A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject. > - Winston Churchill > >> . . . and even fewer people will change the SUBJECT: line > ------------ > Guilty as charged; sorry, I just really enjoy yanking Dave's 'M$ fanboy' > chain... > > But all good things must end, alas... When I die, I'm gonna haunt you. ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Wed Aug 11 19:23:37 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 21:23:37 -0300 Subject: GET LAMP is here References: <20100811134041.A1024@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <00c601cb39b4$e6f47cb0$0600000a@portajara> >> Surely a graphical browser, (if NOT done in a High Level Language) could >> be written to run on a 5150 with CGA. There is a HTML browser that runs on MSX computers (!!!) called FUDEBROWSER, look for it and his creator (Ricardo Bittencourt) From cclist at sydex.com Wed Aug 11 19:28:13 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 17:28:13 -0700 Subject: GET LAMP is here In-Reply-To: <4C60F3B6.3060507@jwsss.com> References: , <4C6085AD.18681.316E52D@cclist.sydex.com>, <4C60F3B6.3060507@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <4C62DDAD.32402.272AA83@cclist.sydex.com> On 9 Aug 2010 at 23:37, jim s wrote: > I still like the recollection of playing it on the Silent 700's > personally, but that is just because of having the experience of doing > it that way. I recall getting the binary DECSystem10 tapes with the odd packing of 5 7-bit characters in a 36-bit word. I don't recall how the words were packed onto a 9 track tape, but it required some headscratching. I do recall writing a bunch of code to unpack and translate to 6-bit CDC display code. The DEC FORTRAN was close, but a lot of it was 36- bit dependent, so there was a certain amount of rework there. You didn't have to play it interactively. You could punch up all of your moves on cards and collect the printed output to see where you went wrong. But running it interactively on INTERCOM was a lot more fun, even if it was a resource hog. --Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Aug 11 19:36:20 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 20:36:20 -0400 Subject: SparcBook Tadpole In-Reply-To: References: <992230.97947.qm@web52604.mail.re2.yahoo.com>, , , , <4C60BEAC.5080609@neurotica.com>, , <08fa01cb3967$3f6269a0$9201a8c0@portajara>, Message-ID: <4C634204.5070500@neurotica.com> On 8/11/10 6:38 PM, dwight elvey wrote: > My problem is that I don't know if I can restore the information in it. > The early Sparcbooks didn't have openboot. Under SunOS, you can use the program called "eeprom" to dump out most of the important contents. As far as restoring it, I'm not sure about that, as I don't know what ROM-based code the very early SPARCbooks use. One way to do it might be to read it out using an EPROM programmer. My Data I/O supports the MK48T02, for example. > Using an old battery device from digikey is just prolonging the > eventual death. If it isn't a current manufacture it is already part dead > when you get it. Well yes, but it's not really all that bad. Those chips are shipped with their clocks stopped, and you need to set a bit in them (normally done by the OS at boot time, just in case) to "kick start" them. I believe the datasheets even call it the "kick start bit". The battery life is essentially the shelf life before the kick start bit is set for the first time. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Aug 11 19:58:58 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 17:58:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: GET LAMP is here In-Reply-To: <00c601cb39b4$e6f47cb0$0600000a@portajara> from Alexandre Souza - Listas at "Aug 11, 10 09:23:37 pm" Message-ID: <201008120058.o7C0wwLP020776@floodgap.com> > > > Surely a graphical browser, (if NOT done in a High Level Language) could > > > be written to run on a 5150 with CGA. > > There is a HTML browser that runs on MSX computers (!!!) called > FUDEBROWSER, look for it and his creator (Ricardo Bittencourt) The problem with old web browsers is that web content has grown up thinking everyone has the latest features. It started innocently with Netscape, got driven wild by IE, and is now being rammed into the stratosphere by Apple. While graceful degredation works (to a limited extent) with CSS -- i.e., as long as your browser supports *no* CSS and doesn't even try, the page will often come out in a useable if utilitarian manner -- it does not work with JavaScript and, by extension, DOM. An out of date web browser is worse than an intentionally limited browser like Lynx. For this reason, I have always advocated different, hard to abuse protocols that by their structure forcibly present some sort of functional skeleton to everyone, such as FTP or Gopher. The Web is terribly unfriendly to incomplete or old implementations. To function your browser must be completely featureless, buying itself a sympathy <noscript> where it can, or completely featured -- inbetween, everything breaks. It's like a bottomless uncanny valley. This is why old computers are regarded as "useless" -- because the way we exchange information is fundamentally screwed up. </off_my_lawn_moment> -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- I, for one, welcome our new C64 overlords. -- John Floren ------------------ From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Aug 11 20:04:57 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 18:04:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: GAMES IN A MUTHA#$*#^ING STICK! was Re: OT - sort of In-Reply-To: <4C605A0A.3040807@tx.rr.com> from Charlie Carothers at "Aug 9, 10 02:42:02 pm" Message-ID: <201008120104.o7C14v6Y017508@floodgap.com> > There is also a copyright notice on the bottom dated 2004 for > > This little gadget has a joystick, a few pushbutton switches, and > composite video and a sound output. It allows one to play vintage Ms. > Pac-Man, Galaga, Pole Position, Mappy, and Xavious by connecting it to a > standard TV's video and audio inputs. I mention this here because I > just thought it was really cool to be able to play these vintage games, > and some might be in the same uninformed group with me. :-) FWIW, my > daughter says there are a number of other similar units with different > games, and the web seems to confirm this. > > Wanting to see if the web site is WOT approved, I googled > jakkstvgames.com and it seems to only be referred to by other web sites. > I finally got brave and typed it in to the Firefox URL entry and was > rewarded with "403 Forbidden" and "You don't have permission to access / > on this server." Sounds pretty scary to me. > > BTW, I have absolutely no connection with this company - whatever it is > - Jakks Pacific? It says it is made in China, of course. The thing is > plastic, but seems to be remarkably well made for something that only > costs 20 bucks. Of course the possibility of hacking it for other > purposes never crossed my mind. ;-) Jakks Pacific was a legit company, but have since folded, near as I can tell. Most of those games-in-a-stick systems are based on a variant of the NES- on-a-chip. This is a very popular architecture for these sorts of toys; the games are not emulated, but rather reprogrammed. This turns up in that the games are close, but not quite like, the originals (see, for example, the Intellivision-in-a-controller). Curt's Flashback 2 and Jeri's C64 joystick are shining exceptions. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- I don't mind lying, but I hate inaccuracy. -- Samuel Butler ---------------- From RichA at vulcan.com Wed Aug 11 20:35:53 2010 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 18:35:53 -0700 Subject: PDP-10 vs. the world [was RE: GET LAMP is here] In-Reply-To: <4C62DDAD.32402.272AA83@cclist.sydex.com> References: <m1OiZIF-000J48C@p850ug1>, <4C6085AD.18681.316E52D@cclist.sydex.com>, <4C60F3B6.3060507@jwsss.com> <4C62DDAD.32402.272AA83@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <CC28F43ED4708D489ABCF68D06D7F556040A5CC9CA@505DENALI.corp.vnw.com> From: Chuck Guzis Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 2010 5:28 PM > I recall getting the binary DECSystem10 tapes with the odd packing of > 5 7-bit characters in a 36-bit word. I don't recall how the words > were packed onto a 9 track tape, but it required some headscratching. > I do recall writing a bunch of code to unpack and translate to 6-bit > CDC display code. The DEC FORTRAN was close, but a lot of it was 36- > bit dependent, so there was a certain amount of rework there. What's odd about it? ASCII is a 7-bit code, and if you have 36-bit words at 5 characters per word you have a maximal use of memory. (There was also a SIXBIT subset of ASCII which dropped the low 32 and high 32 characters and packed 6 to a word, but it wasn't used for general computing.) Depending on what mode tapes were written in, data got mapped into tape frame differently, but the most common mode, again based on economy of storage, went as follows: B0 B1 B2 B3 B4 B5 B6 B7 P B8 B9 B10 B11 B12 B13 B14 B15 P B16 B17 B18 B19 B20 B21 B22 B23 P B24 B25 B26 B27 B28 B29 B30 B31 P 0 0 0 0 B32 B33 B34 B35 P There was even support for editor line numbers: In the editor, line numbers are stored as ASCII strings of digits, with bit 35 turned on in the word. It is set to 0 in each word (5 chars) of text. *On tape*, the parity bit is forced to the wrong value in the 5th frame of a word that contains a line number! FIELDATA, now, *that's* odd. ;-) Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.PDPplanet.org/ http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Wed Aug 11 20:35:47 2010 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 21:35:47 -0400 Subject: Greetings fellow classiccmp'ers In-Reply-To: <4C5C011D.1070701@compsys.to> References: <20100801195510.C7FAD1E0229@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> <4C5C011D.1070701@compsys.to> Message-ID: <4C634FF3.4000002@compsys.to> >Jerome H. Fine wrote: > >Tim Shoppa wrote: > >> Having recently migrated all the stuff on *.trailing-edge.com to a 2010 >> era server (as opposed to the 2000 era server it was on - previous >> to that it had been on an Alpha with VMS, and previous to that it >> had been on a VAX with VMS) with >> fresh installs of all the software I was pleasantly >> surprised with the advances that have been made in apache and mailman >> configuration over time especially with respect to virtual domains etc. >> In particular the Ubuntu distribution was very straightforward to >> deal with... >> after I had adopted to the more modern configuration techniques. >> >> And spamassassin can be better integrated with postfix and mailman than >> in the past, to the point where the obvious spams never have to make it >> to a moderator's mailbox or turn up as a bogus request to the admin >> address. >> >> I'm not sure you need to stage through an intermediate platform, BTW. >> Just bite the bullet and go to the final platform. Unless you really >> enjoy installing and configuring everything twice. Although I was >> pleasantly surprised with the new Apache etc. configuration methods >> I still wouldn't want to do it twice. > > Can you let us know the new address of those files? > > In particular, I was impressed with the stuff at: > ftp://ftp.trailing-edge.com/pub > but it no longer responds. Are those files available elsewhere and I > am just looking in the wrong place? Hi Tim, I am not sure if you did something in response to my inquiry or the files were there all along. However, I am now able to access that site once again. THANK YOU!! Will you be adding any additional RT-11 files to the collection? Jerome Fine From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Wed Aug 11 19:48:23 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 21:48:23 -0300 Subject: SparcBook Tadpole References: <992230.97947.qm@web52604.mail.re2.yahoo.com>, , <SNT129-W35920212CCFBCE4CAABE45A3950@phx.gbl>, , <4C60BEAC.5080609@neurotica.com>, <SNT129-W61D71C38D99D6E6DB2BFB3A3960@phx.gbl>, <08fa01cb3967$3f6269a0$9201a8c0@portajara>, <FF6AB92D97A23A409701CDBF66F03FCD03DC3E6EA0@505fuji><SNT129-W11234506A4545FAB51FE17A3960@phx.gbl> <4C634204.5070500@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <012701cb39be$d5642270$0600000a@portajara> > Well yes, but it's not really all that bad. Those chips are shipped > with their clocks stopped, and you need to set a bit in them (normally > done by the OS at boot time, just in case) to "kick start" them. I > believe the datasheets even call it the "kick start bit". The battery > life is essentially the shelf life before the kick start bit is set for > the first time. First pulse in the /wr line... From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Aug 11 20:42:13 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 21:42:13 -0400 Subject: SparcBook Tadpole In-Reply-To: <012701cb39be$d5642270$0600000a@portajara> References: <992230.97947.qm@web52604.mail.re2.yahoo.com>, , <SNT129-W35920212CCFBCE4CAABE45A3950@phx.gbl>, , <4C60BEAC.5080609@neurotica.com>, <SNT129-W61D71C38D99D6E6DB2BFB3A3960@phx.gbl>, <08fa01cb3967$3f6269a0$9201a8c0@portajara>, <FF6AB92D97A23A409701CDBF66F03FCD03DC3E6EA0@505fuji><SNT129-W11234506A4545FAB51FE17A3960@phx.gbl> <4C634204.5070500@neurotica.com> <012701cb39be$d5642270$0600000a@portajara> Message-ID: <4C635175.2050407@neurotica.com> On 8/11/10 8:48 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >> Well yes, but it's not really all that bad. Those chips are shipped >> with their clocks stopped, and you need to set a bit in them (normally >> done by the OS at boot time, just in case) to "kick start" them. I >> believe the datasheets even call it the "kick start bit". The battery >> life is essentially the shelf life before the kick start bit is set >> for the first time. > > First pulse in the /wr line... Is that what does it? I definitely remember a "kick start" bit in the datasheet. Was that for the clock, and the /WR line enabled the backup for the SRAM? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cclist at sydex.com Wed Aug 11 20:55:47 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 18:55:47 -0700 Subject: PDP-10 vs. the world [was RE: GET LAMP is here] In-Reply-To: <CC28F43ED4708D489ABCF68D06D7F556040A5CC9CA@505DENALI.corp.vnw.com> References: <m1OiZIF-000J48C@p850ug1>, <4C62DDAD.32402.272AA83@cclist.sydex.com>, <CC28F43ED4708D489ABCF68D06D7F556040A5CC9CA@505DENALI.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <4C62F233.1302.2C2D7B8@cclist.sydex.com> On 11 Aug 2010 at 18:35, Rich Alderson wrote: > What's odd about it? ASCII is a 7-bit code, and if you have 36-bit > words at 5 characters per word you have a maximal use of memory. > (There was also a SIXBIT subset of ASCII which dropped the low 32 and > high 32 characters and packed 6 to a word, but it wasn't used for > general computing.) So what does DECSystem 10 packed character data look like on 7 track tape? CDC used it on occasion--6 bit characters in a 60 bit word was much easier to deal with than 7.5 8-bit characters or 8.571428571... characters per word. 12 and 10 bit characters were also proposed as well as using only the low-order 48 bits of a word. When the 7.5-per- word was proposed, the author proposed a new term for 7.5 characters-- a "snaque" (get it? nibble, byte snaque...) > FIELDATA, now, *that's* odd. ;-) No--RAD50 is odd. --Chuck From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Aug 11 22:11:50 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 23:11:50 -0400 Subject: GET JOKE is here Message-ID: <AANLkTimC1i-W_SwBr3FmKF3277PZxfAJHuHeB_FxuJQU@mail.gmail.com> And all this trouble because someone did not read the entire joke. It was only two lines... -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Aug 11 22:21:07 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 23:21:07 -0400 Subject: GET LAMP is here In-Reply-To: <FF6AB92D97A23A409701CDBF66F03FCD03DC3E6E9C@505fuji> References: <m1OiZIF-000J48C@p850ug1> <20100809163517.M21499@shell.lmi.net> <4C60E2D8.4040301@jetnet.ab.ca> <20100809223554.N21499@shell.lmi.net> <022a01cb389c$6fa0e4a0$9201a8c0@portajara> <AANLkTimK9xyQjg2CMwqJ-w+ibQ61c-mOyBbDkdv-R-Ms@mail.gmail.com> <20100810195908.GA365@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> <4C61B202.1050403@neurotica.com> <20100810225432.GC365@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> <AANLkTi=vm4rJgjY0ZYS66d15Hkfv1ydJVm=JscM9LpQq@mail.gmail.com> <20100811070249.GA24723@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> <AANLkTikZKZ+VTamzirV=syG-9uDYh8ozUH_kSJQV=W-o@mail.gmail.com> <FF6AB92D97A23A409701CDBF66F03FCD03DC3E6E9C@505fuji> Message-ID: <AANLkTikdzVr2M-EEhrvuMaOvyEt4xL_Nf+BPGvkksHoU@mail.gmail.com> > Of course, shipping for, say a hundred VT520s is significantly higher than for those modern replacements - even when you add in the (now LCD) screen. ?Oh that's right, you can just go down to Best Buy (which rarely is) to buy the screens.... I doubt shipping costs would be so much of an issue - VT520s, if they are anything like VT420s, are not very heavy. If company X needs several hundred dumb terminals spread around in their system, I bet they would have enough of their own shipping going on, and the VTs could hang on the sides of the trucks for free. > That's not to say I don't have a personal preference for the originals - I have mostly VT420s at home, and we're refurbishing a bunch of VT100s and VT52s here at work. ?-- Ian OK, I will say it - VT420s suck. -- Will From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Aug 11 22:23:42 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 23:23:42 -0400 Subject: GET LAMP is here In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikdzVr2M-EEhrvuMaOvyEt4xL_Nf+BPGvkksHoU@mail.gmail.com> References: <m1OiZIF-000J48C@p850ug1> <20100809163517.M21499@shell.lmi.net> <4C60E2D8.4040301@jetnet.ab.ca> <20100809223554.N21499@shell.lmi.net> <022a01cb389c$6fa0e4a0$9201a8c0@portajara> <AANLkTimK9xyQjg2CMwqJ-w+ibQ61c-mOyBbDkdv-R-Ms@mail.gmail.com> <20100810195908.GA365@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> <4C61B202.1050403@neurotica.com> <20100810225432.GC365@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> <AANLkTi=vm4rJgjY0ZYS66d15Hkfv1ydJVm=JscM9LpQq@mail.gmail.com> <20100811070249.GA24723@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> <AANLkTikZKZ+VTamzirV=syG-9uDYh8ozUH_kSJQV=W-o@mail.gmail.com> <FF6AB92D97A23A409701CDBF66F03FCD03DC3E6E9C@505fuji> <AANLkTikdzVr2M-EEhrvuMaOvyEt4xL_Nf+BPGvkksHoU@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4C63693E.8080801@neurotica.com> On 8/11/10 11:21 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >> Of course, shipping for, say a hundred VT520s is significantly higher than for those modern replacements - even when you add in the (now LCD) screen. Oh that's right, you can just go down to Best Buy (which rarely is) to buy the screens.... > > I doubt shipping costs would be so much of an issue - VT520s, if they > are anything like VT420s, are not very heavy. If company X needs > several hundred dumb terminals spread around in their system, I bet > they would have enough of their own shipping going on, and the VTs > could hang on the sides of the trucks for free. > >> That's not to say I don't have a personal preference for the originals - I have mostly VT420s at home, and we're refurbishing a bunch of VT100s and VT52s here at work. -- Ian > > OK, I will say it - VT420s suck. What don't you like about VT420s? They're my favorite of the line, followed closely by VT320 then VT220. I don't like VT520s at all. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Aug 11 22:54:06 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 23:54:06 -0400 Subject: 3278s Message-ID: <AANLkTi=Va7f+TchcJRMByu2Laqxx4z6ZYGknkh3GjCzY@mail.gmail.com> > Truely boat anchors, but well built boat anchors. There is a variant called 3277 mod 1. It is a small 3270 terminal, with a squished very rectangular tube that can only display 12 lines of text. These were used as consoles on S/3, and are very rare today. Save them if you get them! -- Will From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Aug 12 00:32:21 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 22:32:21 -0700 Subject: EPROM programming (27c160's) In-Reply-To: <4C633271.3090202@philpem.me.uk> References: <992230.97947.qm@web52604.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008110748020.3268@duo> <4C633271.3090202@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4C638765.602@brouhaha.com> Philip Pemberton wrote: > I'm still waiting for an EPROM programmer with Linux software available. I'm using a Data I/O Unisite 48, and had no trouble getting all the Linux software I needed for it. Eric From lproven at gmail.com Thu Aug 12 05:57:04 2010 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2010 11:57:04 +0100 Subject: GET LAMP is here In-Reply-To: <AANLkTim8UV0nCXXOfeYdkDshNOHacXva_Xskb8A6POCk@mail.gmail.com> References: <20100810125109.M61892@shell.lmi.net> <m1OjFLg-000J3xC@p850ug1> <AANLkTim8UV0nCXXOfeYdkDshNOHacXva_Xskb8A6POCk@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <AANLkTi=LFqu=-MMs3wqpH_9OCFDNwYW6iurxovU4OKuu@mail.gmail.com> On 11 August 2010 20:45, Dan Roganti <ragooman at gmail.com> wrote: > On Wed, Aug 11, 2010 at 1:44 PM, Tony Duell <ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk> wrote: > >> >> You know you've been hardware-hackign too long when all you can think of is >> the Quine McClusky minimalisation method... >> > > > and whether ?P?NP ? ?:) Indeed! Charlie Stross wrote an excellent short story about this once, called /Antibodies./ It's on Scribd here: http://www.scribd.com/doc/23396346/Charles-Stross-Antibodies After that, it's kind of a *relief* that apparently P<>NP. (Although also a disappointment.) OTOH, there are many issues with the proof: http://science.slashdot.org/story/10/08/11/0239209/Possible-Issues-With-the-P--NP-Proof -- Liam Proven ? Profile & links: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Aug 12 08:10:32 2010 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2010 08:10:32 -0500 Subject: OT - sort of In-Reply-To: <4C605A0A.3040807@tx.rr.com> References: <4C605A0A.3040807@tx.rr.com> Message-ID: <201008121315.o7CDFJ59068774@billY.EZWIND.NET> At 02:42 PM 8/9/2010, Charlie Carothers wrote: >Wanting to see if the web site is WOT approved, I googled jakkstvgames.com and it seems to only be referred to by other web sites. I finally got brave and typed it in to the Firefox URL entry and was rewarded with "403 Forbidden" and "You don't have permission to access / on this server." Sounds pretty scary to me. Try http://jakks.com/plug-play-tv-games . They also use TVGames.com. Administrative Contact, Technical Contact: JAKKS Pacific domains at jakks.net 22619 PCH #250 Malibu, CA 90265 US 310-455-6305 Record expires on 16-Dec-2010. Record created on 16-Dec-2002. Database last updated on 12-Aug-2010 08:50:57 EDT. From dkelvey at hotmail.com Thu Aug 12 08:35:20 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2010 06:35:20 -0700 Subject: SparcBook Tadpole In-Reply-To: <4C634204.5070500@neurotica.com> References: <992230.97947.qm@web52604.mail.re2.yahoo.com>, ,,<SNT129-W35920212CCFBCE4CAABE45A3950@phx.gbl>, , , <4C60BEAC.5080609@neurotica.com>, , <SNT129-W61D71C38D99D6E6DB2BFB3A3960@phx.gbl>, , <08fa01cb3967$3f6269a0$9201a8c0@portajara>, , <FF6AB92D97A23A409701CDBF66F03FCD03DC3E6EA0@505fuji>, <SNT129-W11234506A4545FAB51FE17A3960@phx.gbl>, <4C634204.5070500@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <SNT129-W7A87A12CD210EFCB24952A3970@phx.gbl> > Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 20:36:20 -0400 > From: mcguire at neurotica.com > To: > Subject: Re: SparcBook Tadpole > > On 8/11/10 6:38 PM, dwight elvey wrote: > > My problem is that I don't know if I can restore the information in it. > > The early Sparcbooks didn't have openboot. > > Under SunOS, you can use the program called "eeprom" to dump out most > of the important contents. As far as restoring it, I'm not sure about > that, as I don't know what ROM-based code the very early SPARCbooks use. > > One way to do it might be to read it out using an EPROM programmer. > My Data I/O supports the MK48T02, for example. > Hi I think I can read it with my programmer. At least with an adapter to make it think it is a 2716. I tried the "eeprom" and it didn't work :( This must be before someon realized it was a good idea. Acording to the history page I saw, the SparcBook was relatively early in the history of things. Dwight Dwight From dkelvey at hotmail.com Thu Aug 12 09:08:14 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2010 07:08:14 -0700 Subject: SparcBook Tadpole In-Reply-To: <SNT129-W7A87A12CD210EFCB24952A3970@phx.gbl> References: <992230.97947.qm@web52604.mail.re2.yahoo.com>, , , , <SNT129-W35920212CCFBCE4CAABE45A3950@phx.gbl>, , , , <4C60BEAC.5080609@neurotica.com>, ,,<SNT129-W61D71C38D99D6E6DB2BFB3A3960@phx.gbl>, ,,<08fa01cb3967$3f6269a0$9201a8c0@portajara>, , , <FF6AB92D97A23A409701CDBF66F03FCD03DC3E6EA0@505fuji>, , <SNT129-W11234506A4545FAB51FE17A3960@phx.gbl>, , <4C634204.5070500@neurotica.com>, <SNT129-W7A87A12CD210EFCB24952A3970@phx.gbl> Message-ID: <SNT129-W4128DAC677437D7D2F89CAA3970@phx.gbl> > From: dkelvey at hotmail.com > > > From: mcguire at neurotica.com > > > > On 8/11/10 6:38 PM, dwight elvey wrote: > > > My problem is that I don't know if I can restore the information in it. > > > The early Sparcbooks didn't have openboot. > > > > Under SunOS, you can use the program called "eeprom" to dump out most > > of the important contents. As far as restoring it, I'm not sure about > > that, as I don't know what ROM-based code the very early SPARCbooks use. > > > > One way to do it might be to read it out using an EPROM programmer. > > My Data I/O supports the MK48T02, for example. > > > > Hi > I think I can read it with my programmer. At least with an adapter to make > it think it is a 2716. > I tried the "eeprom" and it didn't work :( > This must be before someon realized it was a good idea. Acording > to the history page I saw, the SparcBook was relatively early in > the history of things. > Dwight > > Dwight > Hi Do you think I could use the program adb with /dev/nvram? Could I use it to display and or edit the nvram values? Dwight From jbmcb1 at gmail.com Thu Aug 12 10:32:59 2010 From: jbmcb1 at gmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2010 11:32:59 -0400 Subject: OT - sort of In-Reply-To: <4C605A0A.3040807@tx.rr.com> References: <4C605A0A.3040807@tx.rr.com> Message-ID: <AANLkTin9xbXtL35Z_93t=DkfEXk-QNqiX98bF5JjzTj+@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, Aug 9, 2010 at 3:42 PM, Charlie Carothers <csquared3 at tx.rr.com>wrote: > Of course the possibility of hacking it for other purposes never crossed > my mind. ;-) > > Later, > Charlie C. > There are several models of these all-in-one game consoles. I've heard that the Intellivision version is actually a full intellivision on an FPGA. People have hacked it so you can upload any ROM image you want. From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Aug 12 10:42:09 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2010 08:42:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT - sort of In-Reply-To: <AANLkTin9xbXtL35Z_93t=DkfEXk-QNqiX98bF5JjzTj+@mail.gmail.com> from Jason McBrien at "Aug 12, 10 11:32:59 am" Message-ID: <201008121542.o7CFg9SP017994@floodgap.com> > > Of course the possibility of hacking it for other purposes never crossed > > my mind. ;-) > > There are several models of these all-in-one game consoles. I've heard that > the Intellivision version is actually a full intellivision on an FPGA. > People have hacked it so you can upload any ROM image you want. Unless this was a later revision, the Inty one was an NES-on-a-chip device with reprogrammed games. But Curt's Flashback 2 is definitely the real thing. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- SOFTWARE -- formal evening attire for female computer analysts. ------------ From oltmansg at bellsouth.net Thu Aug 12 10:56:43 2010 From: oltmansg at bellsouth.net (geoffrey oltmans) Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2010 08:56:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT - sort of In-Reply-To: <201008121542.o7CFg9SP017994@floodgap.com> References: <201008121542.o7CFg9SP017994@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <962937.64098.qm@web83904.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> The Inty version also had very badly programmed games on top of that, so did the first Flashback. ________________________________ From: Cameron Kaiser <spectre at floodgap.com> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Sent: Thu, August 12, 2010 10:42:09 AM Subject: Re: OT - sort of > > Of course the possibility of hacking it for other purposes never crossed > > my mind. ;-) > > There are several models of these all-in-one game consoles. I've heard that > the Intellivision version is actually a full intellivision on an FPGA. > People have hacked it so you can upload any ROM image you want. Unless this was a later revision, the Inty one was an NES-on-a-chip device with reprogrammed games. But Curt's Flashback 2 is definitely the real thing. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- SOFTWARE -- formal evening attire for female computer analysts. ------------ From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Aug 12 12:20:09 2010 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2010 13:20:09 -0400 Subject: GET LAMP is here In-Reply-To: <20100811134041.A1024@shell.lmi.net> References: <m1OjFLg-000J3xC@p850ug1> <20100811134041.A1024@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4C642D49.4070701@gmail.com> Fred Cisin wrote: >>> Herpes was the worst incurable STD in those days. >> Oh no... back then 'STD' meant 'Subscriber Trunk Dialing' and nothing >> mroe :-) > > There were many 'STD' abreviations. Such as "standard", "SeT Direction", > "State Transition Diagram". But sexually transmitted diseases were not, > and didn't need to be, a major worry in those days. You didn't mention my favorite! STD-BUS. "Simple-to-design". Peace... Sridhar From IanK at vulcan.com Thu Aug 12 14:01:33 2010 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2010 12:01:33 -0700 Subject: Yet another food fight? (was RE: GET LAMP is here) In-Reply-To: <4C63693E.8080801@neurotica.com> References: <m1OiZIF-000J48C@p850ug1> <20100809163517.M21499@shell.lmi.net> <4C60E2D8.4040301@jetnet.ab.ca> <20100809223554.N21499@shell.lmi.net> <022a01cb389c$6fa0e4a0$9201a8c0@portajara> <AANLkTimK9xyQjg2CMwqJ-w+ibQ61c-mOyBbDkdv-R-Ms@mail.gmail.com> <20100810195908.GA365@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> <4C61B202.1050403@neurotica.com> <20100810225432.GC365@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> <AANLkTi=vm4rJgjY0ZYS66d15Hkfv1ydJVm=JscM9LpQq@mail.gmail.com> <20100811070249.GA24723@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> <AANLkTikZKZ+VTamzirV=syG-9uDYh8ozUH_kSJQV=W-o@mail.gmail.com> <FF6AB92D97A23A409701CDBF66F03FCD03DC3E6E9C@505fuji> <AANLkTikdzVr2M-EEhrvuMaOvyEt4xL_Nf+BPGvkksHoU@mail.gmail.com> <4C63693E.8080801@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <FF6AB92D97A23A409701CDBF66F03FCD03DC3E6EAC@505fuji> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dave McGuire > Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 2010 8:24 PM > To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: GET LAMP is here > > On 8/11/10 11:21 PM, William Donzelli wrote: > >> Of course, shipping for, say a hundred VT520s is significantly > higher than for those modern replacements - even when you add in the > (now LCD) screen. Oh that's right, you can just go down to Best Buy > (which rarely is) to buy the screens.... > > > > I doubt shipping costs would be so much of an issue - VT520s, if they > > are anything like VT420s, are not very heavy. If company X needs > > several hundred dumb terminals spread around in their system, I bet > > they would have enough of their own shipping going on, and the VTs > > could hang on the sides of the trucks for free. > > > >> That's not to say I don't have a personal preference for the > originals - I have mostly VT420s at home, and we're refurbishing a > bunch of VT100s and VT52s here at work. -- Ian > > > > OK, I will say it - VT420s suck. > > What don't you like about VT420s? They're my favorite of the line, > followed closely by VT320 then VT220. I don't like VT520s at all. > > -Dave > Relabeled for your enjoyment -- Ian From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Aug 12 14:05:51 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2010 15:05:51 -0400 Subject: Yet another food fight? (was RE: GET LAMP is here) In-Reply-To: <FF6AB92D97A23A409701CDBF66F03FCD03DC3E6EAC@505fuji> References: <m1OiZIF-000J48C@p850ug1> <20100809163517.M21499@shell.lmi.net> <4C60E2D8.4040301@jetnet.ab.ca> <20100809223554.N21499@shell.lmi.net> <022a01cb389c$6fa0e4a0$9201a8c0@portajara> <AANLkTimK9xyQjg2CMwqJ-w+ibQ61c-mOyBbDkdv-R-Ms@mail.gmail.com> <20100810195908.GA365@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> <4C61B202.1050403@neurotica.com> <20100810225432.GC365@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> <AANLkTi=vm4rJgjY0ZYS66d15Hkfv1ydJVm=JscM9LpQq@mail.gmail.com> <20100811070249.GA24723@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> <AANLkTikZKZ+VTamzirV=syG-9uDYh8ozUH_kSJQV=W-o@mail.gmail.com> <FF6AB92D97A23A409701CDBF66F03FCD03DC3E6E9C@505fuji> <AANLkTikdzVr2M-EEhrvuMaOvyEt4xL_Nf+BPGvkksHoU@mail.gmail.com> <4C63693E.8080801@neurotica.com> <FF6AB92D97A23A409701CDBF66F03FCD03DC3E6EAC@505fuji> Message-ID: <AANLkTindsx1j5LzKT_R3uL5rncWwbzuX1Z84AnW0UE2R@mail.gmail.com> > Relabeled for your enjoyment -- Ian Come to think of it, VT420s are relabeled for your enjoyment, as well. They are not DEC inside. -- Will From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Aug 12 14:08:10 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2010 15:08:10 -0400 Subject: Yet another food fight? (was RE: GET LAMP is here) In-Reply-To: <FF6AB92D97A23A409701CDBF66F03FCD03DC3E6EAC@505fuji> References: <m1OiZIF-000J48C@p850ug1> <20100809163517.M21499@shell.lmi.net> <4C60E2D8.4040301@jetnet.ab.ca> <20100809223554.N21499@shell.lmi.net> <022a01cb389c$6fa0e4a0$9201a8c0@portajara> <AANLkTimK9xyQjg2CMwqJ-w+ibQ61c-mOyBbDkdv-R-Ms@mail.gmail.com> <20100810195908.GA365@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> <4C61B202.1050403@neurotica.com> <20100810225432.GC365@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> <AANLkTi=vm4rJgjY0ZYS66d15Hkfv1ydJVm=JscM9LpQq@mail.gmail.com> <20100811070249.GA24723@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> <AANLkTikZKZ+VTamzirV=syG-9uDYh8ozUH_kSJQV=W-o@mail.gmail.com> <FF6AB92D97A23A409701CDBF66F03FCD03DC3E6E9C@505fuji> <AANLkTikdzVr2M-EEhrvuMaOvyEt4xL_Nf+BPGvkksHoU@mail.gmail.com> <4C63693E.8080801@neurotica.com> <FF6AB92D97A23A409701CDBF66F03FCD03DC3E6EAC@505fuji> Message-ID: <4C64469A.6050000@neurotica.com> On 8/12/10 3:01 PM, Ian King wrote: >>>> Of course, shipping for, say a hundred VT520s is significantly >> higher than for those modern replacements - even when you add in the >> (now LCD) screen. Oh that's right, you can just go down to Best Buy >> (which rarely is) to buy the screens.... >>> >>> I doubt shipping costs would be so much of an issue - VT520s, if they >>> are anything like VT420s, are not very heavy. If company X needs >>> several hundred dumb terminals spread around in their system, I bet >>> they would have enough of their own shipping going on, and the VTs >>> could hang on the sides of the trucks for free. >>> >>>> That's not to say I don't have a personal preference for the >> originals - I have mostly VT420s at home, and we're refurbishing a >> bunch of VT100s and VT52s here at work. -- Ian >>> >>> OK, I will say it - VT420s suck. >> >> What don't you like about VT420s? They're my favorite of the line, >> followed closely by VT320 then VT220. I don't like VT520s at all. > > Relabeled for your enjoyment -- Ian Not at all, I just wanted to know what he didn't like about them. The only thing I dislike about VT420s is the non-removable power cables. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Aug 12 14:19:47 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2010 15:19:47 -0400 Subject: Yet another food fight? (was RE: GET LAMP is here) In-Reply-To: <AANLkTindsx1j5LzKT_R3uL5rncWwbzuX1Z84AnW0UE2R@mail.gmail.com> References: <m1OiZIF-000J48C@p850ug1> <20100809163517.M21499@shell.lmi.net> <4C60E2D8.4040301@jetnet.ab.ca> <20100809223554.N21499@shell.lmi.net> <022a01cb389c$6fa0e4a0$9201a8c0@portajara> <AANLkTimK9xyQjg2CMwqJ-w+ibQ61c-mOyBbDkdv-R-Ms@mail.gmail.com> <20100810195908.GA365@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> <4C61B202.1050403@neurotica.com> <20100810225432.GC365@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> <AANLkTi=vm4rJgjY0ZYS66d15Hkfv1ydJVm=JscM9LpQq@mail.gmail.com> <20100811070249.GA24723@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> <AANLkTikZKZ+VTamzirV=syG-9uDYh8ozUH_kSJQV=W-o@mail.gmail.com> <FF6AB92D97A23A409701CDBF66F03FCD03DC3E6E9C@505fuji> <AANLkTikdzVr2M-EEhrvuMaOvyEt4xL_Nf+BPGvkksHoU@mail.gmail.com> <4C63693E.8080801@neurotica.com> <FF6AB92D97A23A409701CDBF66F03FCD03DC3E6EAC@505fuji> <AANLkTindsx1j5LzKT_R3uL5rncWwbzuX1Z84AnW0UE2R@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4C644953.6030001@neurotica.com> On 8/12/10 3:05 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >> Relabeled for your enjoyment -- Ian > > Come to think of it, VT420s are relabeled for your enjoyment, as well. > They are not DEC inside. Not quite. The VT420 was introduced in 1990, and the terminal business was sold to Boundless in 1995. This is from dusty memory, corrections welcome, but I believe this to be correct. This makes the VT420 most definitely a "DEC inside" device. This also seems consistent with the major design differences between the VT420 and the (Boundless-manufactured) VT510. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From dkelvey at hotmail.com Thu Aug 12 14:22:52 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2010 12:22:52 -0700 Subject: EPROM programming (27c160's) In-Reply-To: <992230.97947.qm@web52604.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <992230.97947.qm@web52604.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <SNT129-W525AA19A51BC00D55F0592A3970@phx.gbl> > From: ian_primus at yahoo.com ---snip--- > > So, carefully reading the datasheet, I notice that the 27c160 wants a program pulse of 50us. The chip that the programmer thinks it's programming, a 27c040, uses a programming pulse of 100ns. The programming waveforms between a 27c160 and a 27c040 look the same to me, besides that. But it would seem that my problems lie with the waveform being incorrect, and newer chips being less picky about it than the older chips of the same part number. > > Now, I'm stumped. I *really* want to make this programmer program these chips. It does everything else properly, including program 27c322's with this adapter. Now, I know the adapter is wired correctly, because I have programmed newer rev 27c160's properly, and they have worked perfectly in their intended purpose. The adapter is wired up such that in 27c322 mode, the programmer is used as if it were a 27c080, and in 27c160 mode the programmer is used as if it were a 27c040. I did it this way due to the pinouts of the devices and the required programming algorithms. > > Basically, I am wondering if any of our resident gurus have seen behavior like this with EPROMs, and if there may be anything I can do to shorten pulses, buffer, or something to get this to program... or, if anyone just *happens* to have the source code to the EMP software laying around somewhere... > Hi I was giving this some thought. What problem are you actually having? Are you getting cells that don't program or are you seeing cells that are being programmed without there bing a bit '0' in that location. One thing to check is the quality of the socket used. Most older Zero insertion sockets use metal that does corrode over time. These do need bernishing. This usually causes failures in connecting address or data line. If it is failing to program, increase the voltage a little ( worst you can do is blow out the part ). If you are seeing bit that are programmed to zeros that shouldn't be, try reducing the voltage. Also turn off any manuufacture recognition and use generic programming. As I said, the most common problem is bad contact on the pins. The socket could have corrosion and the sides of the pins could also have corrosion. Doing a dump after a programming error can show quite a bit about what was happening. Dwight From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Aug 12 14:29:48 2010 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2010 15:29:48 -0400 Subject: Yet another food fight? (was RE: GET LAMP is here) In-Reply-To: <4C64469A.6050000@neurotica.com> References: <m1OiZIF-000J48C@p850ug1> <20100809163517.M21499@shell.lmi.net> <4C60E2D8.4040301@jetnet.ab.ca> <20100809223554.N21499@shell.lmi.net> <022a01cb389c$6fa0e4a0$9201a8c0@portajara> <AANLkTimK9xyQjg2CMwqJ-w+ibQ61c-mOyBbDkdv-R-Ms@mail.gmail.com> <20100810195908.GA365@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> <4C61B202.1050403@neurotica.com> <20100810225432.GC365@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> <AANLkTi=vm4rJgjY0ZYS66d15Hkfv1ydJVm=JscM9LpQq@mail.gmail.com> <20100811070249.GA24723@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> <AANLkTikZKZ+VTamzirV=syG-9uDYh8ozUH_kSJQV=W-o@mail.gmail.com> <FF6AB92D97A23A409701CDBF66F03FCD03DC3E6E9C@505fuji> <AANLkTikdzVr2M-EEhrvuMaOvyEt4xL_Nf+BPGvkksHoU@mail.gmail.com> <4C63693E.8080801@neurotica.com> <FF6AB92D97A23A409701CDBF66F03FCD03DC3E6EAC@505fuji> <4C64469A.6050000@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4C644BAC.4010707@gmail.com> Dave McGuire wrote: >>> What don't you like about VT420s? They're my favorite of the line, >>> followed closely by VT320 then VT220. I don't like VT520s at all. >> >> Relabeled for your enjoyment -- Ian > > Not at all, I just wanted to know what he didn't like about them. The > only thing I dislike about VT420s is the non-removable power cables. I mostly use my two VT340s nowadays (thanks, Dave), but I have to say my favorite ASCII RS-232 serial terminal is the IBM 3153. Excellent keyboards. Can't say the same for the LK201 or LK401. Peace... Sridhar From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Aug 12 13:46:56 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2010 19:46:56 +0100 (BST) Subject: Pronouncing acronyms (was Re: DEC acronyms) In-Reply-To: <UqZnnrWN.1281429480.9228710.jotter@howe.textdrive.com> from "Jonas Otter" at Aug 10, 10 08:38:00 am Message-ID: <m1Ojcnr-000J3xC@p850ug1> > > Concerning dismantling lenses in order to clean helicoids, diaphragm > blades etc. you might be interested in Chuck Cole's opinions as > expressed in the ManualMinoltaFree Yahoo group. Somehow I imagine you > might disagree with him, or else you might explain your method of > dealing with the issues he feels so strongly about... Well, if he's suggesting spaying soemthing into the lens (yes, I have seen that suggested!), I certainly disapprove. If he;'s suggesting removing the optical elemenets and applyuing solvent/lubricantmix to the mount, then that's slightly better, but IMHO that's a method used by people who can't handle tools and small parts properly, and if you're not careful, it simply shifts the gummy lubricant, etc, elsewhere where it will cause toruble lateer. I really do prefer to clean each part separately. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Aug 12 13:49:54 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2010 19:49:54 +0100 (BST) Subject: an old program, was Re: GET LAMP was here In-Reply-To: <4C62FE2D.8010805@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Aug 11, 10 03:46:53 pm Message-ID: <m1Ojcqk-000J3yC@p850ug1> > Does anyone here remember a program called "The Last One" that was I rememebr the adverts, but nothing more. I've never seen the program itself. > advertised in full-page ads in BYTE? I believe it was a code generator > of some sort. I'll go digging through magazines to see if I can find I seem to revall the name came from the idea that this is the last program you'd have to buy becuase you could write everything yourself. I think it was OK for writing database type things, but not much else. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Aug 12 13:23:54 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2010 19:23:54 +0100 (BST) Subject: OT - sort of In-Reply-To: <4C605A0A.3040807@tx.rr.com> from "Charlie Carothers" at Aug 9, 10 02:42:02 pm Message-ID: <m1OjcRc-000J3uC@p850ug1> > it up to explore the insides at all - yet. On the bottom next to the > list of games are copyright dates from 1960 to 1983, the best I can I wonder what the copyright from 1960 covers? > tell. There is also a copyright notice on the bottom dated 2004 for > JAKKS Pacific, Inc. and a reference to www.jakkstvgames.com. > > This little gadget has a joystick, a few pushbutton switches, and > composite video and a sound output. It allows one to play vintage Ms. > Pac-Man, Galaga, Pole Position, Mappy, and Xavious by connecting it to a > standard TV's video and audio inputs. I mention this here because I > just thought it was really cool to be able to play these vintage games, > and some might be in the same uninformed group with me. :-) FWIW, my > daughter says there are a number of other similar units with different > games, and the web seems to confirm this. > I've sene similar units (with different numbers of games) on sale over here. PAL video output, of course. And rather more expensive than the equivalent of $20... Anyway, I'd assuemd (with no evidence, I must add) that the internals were mostly epoxy-capped chip-on-board things, impossible to modify. So I've not bought one. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Aug 12 13:54:21 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2010 19:54:21 +0100 (BST) Subject: SparcBook Tadpole In-Reply-To: <20100811215935.788e4ce4.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> from "Jochen Kunz" at Aug 11, 10 09:59:35 pm Message-ID: <m1Ojcv3-000J43C@p850ug1> > Dave McGuire <mcguire at neurotica.com> wrote: > > > > I tried doing a search on google for anyone hacking these chips > > > to replace the battery but all I got were chip sales. > > I've seen pages documenting this, but that was years ago. > I do this hack this way: > File down the top of the chip at the pin 12 / 13 end until you get to > the top of the old battery. The top of the battery is the + contact. What is the battery? A lithium coin cell? Having had all sorts of batteries leak over the years, I would be happer if you could repmve the old battery (even if it makes a mess of the top of the package. Is that possible? The ones I have seen look to be a normal 28 pin DIL package with a separat block of encapsulant containing the battery (I assume) on top. How are the wirtes from the battery connected into the 28 pin DIL package part? Is it possible to cut away rather mroe of the encapsulant block and remvoe the old battery without wrecking the chip? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Aug 12 14:00:34 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2010 20:00:34 +0100 (BST) Subject: GET LAMP is here In-Reply-To: <20100811134041.A1024@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Aug 11, 10 01:59:02 pm Message-ID: <m1Ojd13-000J48C@p850ug1> > > If a 'party' is what I think it is, I'll jsut stick to fixing my classic > > computers ;-) > > In those days, parties were much more varied than they are now. > The first time that I played Adventure (see! we don't know how to stay > off-topic!), the first time that I saw an 8080 or Z80, my first hands-on > with S100, flight simulator (pre-release?) on an Apple, were all at > parties in the San Francisco area in the mid to late 1970s. Ah, right... Souns a bit like a certain event I attend once a month. > > Building a machine that runs a graphical browser using only stock chips > > doesnt sound totally tivial/. > > Surely a graphical browser, (if NOT done in a High Level Language) could > be written to run on a 5150 with CGA. I think most graphical web pages would be pretty much useless at 320*200 in 4 pre-chosen colours... IIRC the origianl 5150 couldn't take a hard disk. So with a maximum, of 640K or RAM and 4 360K disk drives (which I suppose you oculd use for buffering data), I think it's going to be hard to handle multi-megabyte web pages... > > > > Even thoguh I am pretty fast with a soldering iron, Isuspect I could > > read that centence rather quicker htan I could solder in a 40 pin DIL chip... > > I'm not as good with soldering. I could read that sentence in less time > than a single pin of the 40 pin DIP. But, I could finish soldering the 40 > pin socket (marginal soldering skills) before this dial-up would be > displaying the page. Heck, with my set-up, I think I could propualte the entire PCB before the page has fully downloaded... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Aug 12 14:04:07 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2010 20:04:07 +0100 (BST) Subject: SparcBook Tadpole In-Reply-To: <4C631593.6080408@jwsss.com> from "jim s" at Aug 11, 10 02:26:43 pm Message-ID: <m1Ojd4U-000J49C@p850ug1> > > Ooh... I've seen that page before, and that technique looks dangerous > > (the soldering to the Li battery part). > > > > > The places I've been who supply large numbers of replacement batteries > all have a fancy welding rig which they can use to stick a set of bands There ahve been various designes for these in magazines and on the web over the years. They don't look too hard to build. > on any battery, including lithium, by welding. Then solder to that. It > may not be as pretty as some of the soldered approaches, but i agree > with you, I'm not going to apply solder heat to a lithium battery. It's > all about heat not temperature to make them explode. Nor would I. But you can get lithium coin cells with PCB pins (which you can solder to), or coil cell holders. I would use the latter if there was space, it makes future repairs easier... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Aug 12 14:25:45 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2010 20:25:45 +0100 (BST) Subject: EPROM programming (27c160's) In-Reply-To: <4C633271.3090202@philpem.me.uk> from "Philip Pemberton" at Aug 12, 10 00:29:53 am Message-ID: <m1OjdPR-000J4CC@p850ug1> > I'm still waiting for an EPROM programmer with Linux software available. Make one!. The programming specs for most EPROMs are available, I think... > > I'm actually tempted to do a GAL/fuse-PROM programmer seeing as my > GALBlast won't work worth a damn on this machine :( Are enough of the programming algorithms documented to make this possible? For the fusible-link PROMs (and PALs), every manufactuer seemed to do it their own way. Some would release the programming specifications (they were even sometimes in the data sheets), others wouldn't. Some stopped releaisng them, so you could get hand-program the early parts but no the later ones. Ditto for GALs (although, actually, geting any programmign specification for those was 'interestings') -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Aug 12 14:22:55 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2010 20:22:55 +0100 (BST) Subject: SparcBook Tadpole In-Reply-To: <FF6AB92D97A23A409701CDBF66F03FCD03DC3E6EA7@505fuji> from "Ian King" at Aug 11, 10 03:43:33 pm Message-ID: <m1OjdMh-000J4BC@p850ug1> > But that describes everything we talk about here that uses magtape, disk pa= > cks, 7400-series TTL, ASICs, (god help us) ECL, et tedious cetera. Yes, in= True enough :-( > another few years my Voyager will have a dead NVRAM again and I may or may= > not be able to get another chip. I might not even be able to get a new > battery: that's a problem with my Minolta SRT series SLRs, where the I think that's unlikey. The voltage is not too critical (it needs to be between 3-ish ance 5V, I think). I have had success using a couple of AA cells in series (normal 1.5V Duracells) as a replaemeent for a backup coil cell in some systems. No, they don't last as long (shelf life is lower), but they are avaialble _anywhere_. > excellent TTL metering doesn't work anymore because it was designed to > be powered by mercury cells that I can't buy anymore. While you can, alas, no longer get mercury batteries, there are plenty of work-arounds for this. If the STT101 I've just picked up from my pile of odd cameras is anythign to go by, it takes a single PX13/PX625 cell. There is an alkaline equivelent that's the same size, but highter voltage, and I susepct, alas, the Mimnolta meter woudl care about that. Often connecting a single shottky diode in sereis with the cell will do the teick, if there's space inside the camera (sorry, I've not pulled the bottm plate to check), then it's easy to add it. If there isn't space, then there's a fairly expensive adapterwhich takes a smaller alkanline cell and includes a series diode. Or you could make soemthing like that. Or a new battrey cover containing contacts with wires leading to an external PSU of the right voltage. If you like, I can take my SRT101 apart and see how the metering system works.. FWIW, I'v;e never found a classic camera/exposure meter that will be damed by using the alkaline rather than the mercury cell. It may give silly readings though. It's worth trying and comparing with a known-good exposure meter. Some cameras used bridge circuits for the meters. East German Prakticas did. As dod at least one of the metering prisms for the Exakta. if the correct exposure is indicated by the bridge being balanced, then the battery voltage is irrelevant (within reason), so you cna use the 1.5V alklaline cell in your MRL3 or whatever without problems The Pentax Spotmatic is a ridiculous design. it's a bridge alright, but the correct exposoure is indicated by a small current floing through the meter, the bridge is not balanced. The official rason for this is that you can't get an 'correct exposure' indication if the battery is totally flat (so the meter can't deflect at all). FOO!. It would be extremely rare that the controls were set just right to give the exposure needed for whatever you're point the camera at, and I think any photographer who used such a camera and found no meter deflection would instinctively move the camera around and/or turn the aperture ring to check the meter was working. I know I would. My view is thath te Spotmatic meter is a bodge! > > If you want an appliance, yes, it's important to not let yourself fall too = > far behind the curve. But if you're a manly man (or a womanly woman) and s= > eek great adventure and even greater glory (and perhaps even an advantage w= > ith members of the gender of your choice), you'll geek-up and do what it ta= > kes to keep your Olde Beaste running. =20 Yes, it deepends on what you want to do. If you want to run the lattest software, you need a modern-ish computer. But I am quite happy using this classic for e-mail, text processing, etc. It does all I need. And I understand how it works and how to keep it working. -tony From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Aug 12 14:34:56 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2010 15:34:56 -0400 Subject: Yet another food fight? (was RE: GET LAMP is here) In-Reply-To: <4C644BAC.4010707@gmail.com> References: <m1OiZIF-000J48C@p850ug1> <20100809163517.M21499@shell.lmi.net> <4C60E2D8.4040301@jetnet.ab.ca> <20100809223554.N21499@shell.lmi.net> <022a01cb389c$6fa0e4a0$9201a8c0@portajara> <AANLkTimK9xyQjg2CMwqJ-w+ibQ61c-mOyBbDkdv-R-Ms@mail.gmail.com> <20100810195908.GA365@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> <4C61B202.1050403@neurotica.com> <20100810225432.GC365@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> <AANLkTi=vm4rJgjY0ZYS66d15Hkfv1ydJVm=JscM9LpQq@mail.gmail.com> <20100811070249.GA24723@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> <AANLkTikZKZ+VTamzirV=syG-9uDYh8ozUH_kSJQV=W-o@mail.gmail.com> <FF6AB92D97A23A409701CDBF66F03FCD03DC3E6E9C@505fuji> <AANLkTikdzVr2M-EEhrvuMaOvyEt4xL_Nf+BPGvkksHoU@mail.gmail.com> <4C63693E.8080801@neurotica.com> <FF6AB92D97A23A409701CDBF66F03FCD03DC3E6EAC@505fuji> <4C64469A.6050000@neurotica.com> <4C644BAC.4010707@gmail.com> Message-ID: <AANLkTikjYnuiYyAUE2Hm1sycCxXbdtPh6_4fR4R--_b+@mail.gmail.com> > I mostly use my two VT340s nowadays (thanks, Dave), but I have to say my > favorite ASCII RS-232 serial terminal is the IBM 3153. ?Excellent keyboards. > ?Can't say the same for the LK201 or LK401. Yes, those 315x terminals are nice. Especially the ones with keyboards that actually fit inside a rack. I do not like the VT420 due to MMJ, the relatively low reliability, and that CRAP power switch on the front. The keyboards are nothing to write home about either, but DEC keyboards rarely are. -- Will From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Aug 12 14:44:28 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2010 20:44:28 +0100 (BST) Subject: Yet another food fight? (was RE: GET LAMP is here) In-Reply-To: <4C64469A.6050000@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Aug 12, 10 03:08:10 pm Message-ID: <m1OjdhX-000J3uC@p850ug1> > >> What don't you like about VT420s? They're my favorite of the line, > >> followed closely by VT320 then VT220. I don't like VT520s at all. > > > > Relabeled for your enjoyment -- Ian > > Not at all, I just wanted to know what he didn't like about them. The Agreed. I don't think reasoned criticism of products is out of place here... > only thing I dislike about VT420s is the non-removable power cables. For things with fixed power cables that I am going to be moving around a lot, I have been known to cut the power cable about 6" from the device and fit an IEC plug (the sort of thing that goes into the power outlet socket on a PC). Then I can use a normal 'kettle lead' to power it. Of course if there's space on the cabient for a chassis-mount IEC plug I fit that (and for some reason, a number of devices with fixed power cables have them held in my a strain-relief bush fitted to a blanking plate which happens to cover a hole just the right size for such a plug). Getting back to termianls, The VT5xx and VT4xx are too modern for me to have ever used... But I dislike VT3xx's. My expeirence of thsoe is that they eat flyback transfomers, and replacement transformeres are hard to get and expensive. Whereas VT220s don't (I think I've only ever repaled one flyback in a VT220). The ony porblem with the VT220 is the horizonal hold preset, pulliing the case and turning it back and forth a few times cures that. -tony From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Aug 12 14:51:45 2010 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2010 12:51:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT - sort of In-Reply-To: <m1OjcRc-000J3uC@p850ug1> References: <m1OjcRc-000J3uC@p850ug1> Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.00.1008121244250.12715@grumble.deltasoft.com> On Thu, 12 Aug 2010, Tony Duell wrote: > Anyway, I'd assuemd (with no evidence, I must add) that the internals > were mostly epoxy-capped chip-on-board things, impossible to modify. So > I've not bought one. > The C-64 DTV that Jeri Ellsworth created actually has room on the board to add a keyboard and an IEC connector. There may be more, but I don't recall. Here's the hack for adding disk drives: http://picobay.com/dtv_wiki/index.php?title=IEC_port Here's the keyboard hack: http://picobay.com/dtv_wiki/index.php?title=Keyboard_port g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From cclist at sydex.com Thu Aug 12 14:59:36 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2010 12:59:36 -0700 Subject: GET LAMP is here In-Reply-To: <m1Ojd13-000J48C@p850ug1> References: <20100811134041.A1024@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Aug 11, 10 01:59:02 pm, <m1Ojd13-000J48C@p850ug1> Message-ID: <4C63F038.5472.D5640D@cclist.sydex.com> On 12 Aug 2010 at 20:00, Tony Duell wrote: > IIRC the origianl 5150 couldn't take a hard disk. So with a maximum, > of 640K or RAM and 4 360K disk drives (which I suppose you oculd use > for buffering data), I think it's going to be hard to handle > multi-megabyte web pages... There were many third-party hard drives. I rigged up my own with an SA-1000, WD1001 and a little interface board. 4MB, granted wasn't much, but it worked. Ampex and others had similar setups. And one could always use LIM (EMS) memory on a 5150. Lynx is available for DOS, but is severely memory-constrained and slow as a Dell customer service representative. Arachne will run on a 286, but you don't want to endure waiting for a page to load. --Chuck From marvin at west.net Thu Aug 12 16:01:37 2010 From: marvin at west.net (Marvin Johnston) Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2010 14:01:37 -0700 Subject: HP 9825A Message-ID: <4C646131.3030500@west.net> I've got several HP 9825A calculator/computers that I don't need. In checking out the first one, I get an error code 30 which according to the quick reference means special function not defined. Anyone know what this actually means? As soon as I get them checked out and to a known condition, I'll go ahead and put them up on the VCGM, and start them at around $50 - $75 depending on condition. I've just got WAY too much stuff around here, and I don't expect to ever really want to play with these. BTW, I only get the digest, so I'll see any response(s) on the next digest. Thanks! Marvin From legalize at xmission.com Thu Aug 12 16:41:50 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2010 15:41:50 -0600 Subject: Yet another food fight? (was RE: GET LAMP is here) In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 12 Aug 2010 15:05:51 -0400. <AANLkTindsx1j5LzKT_R3uL5rncWwbzuX1Z84AnW0UE2R@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <E1OjfX4-00029h-7h@shell.xmission.com> In article <AANLkTindsx1j5LzKT_R3uL5rncWwbzuX1Z84AnW0UE2R at mail.gmail.com>, William Donzelli <wdonzelli at gmail.com> writes: > Come to think of it, VT420s are relabeled for your enjoyment, as well. > They are not DEC inside. What's in them? I have some and haven't cracked open the case. <http://vt100.net/vt_history> doesn't mention anything about them not actually being DEC inside. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com/the-direct3d-graphics-pipeline/> Legalize Adulthood! <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com> From pete at dunnington.plus.com Thu Aug 12 16:45:40 2010 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2010 22:45:40 +0100 Subject: Pronouncing acronyms (was Re: DEC acronyms) In-Reply-To: <m1Ojcnr-000J3xC@p850ug1> References: <m1Ojcnr-000J3xC@p850ug1> Message-ID: <4C646B84.2090607@dunnington.plus.com> On 12/08/2010 19:46, Tony Duell wrote: >> Concerning dismantling lenses in order to clean helicoids, diaphragm >> blades etc. you might be interested in Chuck Cole's opinions as >> expressed in the ManualMinoltaFree Yahoo group. Somehow I imagine you >> might disagree with him, or else you might explain your method of >> dealing with the issues he feels so strongly about... > > Well, if he's suggesting spaying soemthing into the lens (yes, I have > seen that suggested!), I certainly disapprove. If he;'s suggesting > removing the optical elemenets and applyuing solvent/lubricantmix to the > mount, then that's slightly better, but IMHO that's a method used by > people who can't handle tools and small parts properly, and if you're not > careful, it simply shifts the gummy lubricant, etc, elsewhere where it > will cause toruble lateer. I really do prefer to clean each part separately. Chuck is also a regular contributor to the camera-fix group, and some might describe him as, hmm, assertive perhaps, occasionally abrasive maybe, and I've even seen someone describe him as arrogant. His attitude to cleaning focussing mechanisms would certainly not involve any aerosol, and lubricant (of a petrochemical variety at least) wouldn't be part of his vocabulary in the context of an iris diaphragm! In fact the last thing I recall him getting het up about re threads was that he believes only special lubricants should be allowed near a lens, and that what's suitably for a focussing screw wouldn't be the same thing you'd want on the diaphragm. Well, no argument from me there. Some people felt he was a bit OTT and unhelpful. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Thu Aug 12 16:53:22 2010 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2010 14:53:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: P112 kit pre-orders Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.1.10.1008121444080.10273@sleipnir.cs.csubak.edu> You've asked me again and again "When will you have more P112 kits?". The answer is "very soon". I'm now taking pre-orders. The kits are $150 for shipping in the US and $160 outside the US. You can place your order at using Paypal http://661.org/p112. If you'd rather not use Paypal, email me and we'll get something worked out. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Thu Aug 12 17:05:15 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2010 19:05:15 -0300 Subject: EPROM programming (27c160's) References: <m1OjdPR-000J4CC@p850ug1> Message-ID: <06e901cb3a6c$e4fc4c90$9201a8c0@portajara> WILLEM!!! The specs and source code are still avaiable on the net :) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" <ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk> To: <cctalk at classiccmp.org> Sent: Thursday, August 12, 2010 4:25 PM Subject: Re: EPROM programming (27c160's) >> I'm still waiting for an EPROM programmer with Linux software available. > > Make one!. The programming specs for most EPROMs are available, I think... > >> >> I'm actually tempted to do a GAL/fuse-PROM programmer seeing as my >> GALBlast won't work worth a damn on this machine :( > > Are enough of the programming algorithms documented to make this > possible? For the fusible-link PROMs (and PALs), every manufactuer seemed > to do it their own way. Some would release the programming specifications > (they were even sometimes in the data sheets), others wouldn't. Some > stopped releaisng them, so you could get hand-program the early parts but > no the later ones. > > Ditto for GALs (although, actually, geting any programmign specification > for those was 'interestings') > > -tony From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Aug 12 17:42:29 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2010 15:42:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: GET LAMP is here In-Reply-To: <m1Ojd13-000J48C@p850ug1> References: <m1Ojd13-000J48C@p850ug1> Message-ID: <20100812152308.Q47600@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 12 Aug 2010, Tony Duell wrote: > > Surely a graphical browser, (if NOT done in a High Level Language) could > > be written to run on a 5150 with CGA. > I think most graphical web pages would be pretty much useless at 320*200 > in 4 pre-chosen colours... More useless than they are on this POS with VGA? > IIRC the origianl 5150 couldn't take a hard disk. Could be done, using a floppy boot disk with certain startup code. Did any of them use the "extra" ROM socket on the 5150? > So with a maximum, of 640K or RAM EMS (LIM?) Although MOST expanded memory systems were 16 bit, and written with 286 code, there WERE 8 bit EMS boards, and 808x software. > and 4 360K disk drives (which I suppose you oculd use for > buffering data), I think it's going to be hard to handle multi-megabyte > web pages... I ran 8" DSDD on a 5150, with an aftermarket FDC board. I saw 8 bit hard drives running on PCs, and even on Apple][, and TRS80 model 3! I never bought one, because they were a few hundred to a thousand dollars per megabyte! -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Aug 12 17:53:20 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2010 15:53:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: GOT LAMP In-Reply-To: <AANLkTi=LFqu=-MMs3wqpH_9OCFDNwYW6iurxovU4OKuu@mail.gmail.com> References: <20100810125109.M61892@shell.lmi.net> <m1OjFLg-000J3xC@p850ug1> <AANLkTim8UV0nCXXOfeYdkDshNOHacXva_Xskb8A6POCk@mail.gmail.com> <AANLkTi=LFqu=-MMs3wqpH_9OCFDNwYW6iurxovU4OKuu@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20100812154648.N47600@shell.lmi.net> There was some discussion earlier about the nature of the fuel for the lamp. Although it is explicitly battery operated (see vending machine!), It was generally assumed not to be a conventional torch/flashlight. Well, a friend knew that I was in need of a better power failure light, and gave me a lamp. It looks like an ordinary "hurricane lantern". But, instead of combustion, it has more than a dozen LEDs! The "fuel tank" has a door on the bottom for batteries. What appears to be a liquid fuel tank cap rotates, and is actually an ON/OFF switch and dimmer control! I'm not used to seeing reasonably smooth dimming with LEDs. From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Aug 12 18:41:07 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2010 16:41:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: GET LAMP is here In-Reply-To: <4C642D49.4070701@gmail.com> References: <m1OjFLg-000J3xC@p850ug1> <20100811134041.A1024@shell.lmi.net> <4C642D49.4070701@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20100812163822.S47600@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 12 Aug 2010, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > You didn't mention my favorite! STD-BUS. "Simple-to-design". I apologize for leaving out a truly important STD. "party like it's 1979"? Hell, yes. The world has reassigned the most prevalent use of STD from STD-BUS to Sexually Transmitted Diseases. Is THAT an improvement? From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Aug 12 18:42:01 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2010 19:42:01 -0400 Subject: Yet another food fight? (was RE: GET LAMP is here) In-Reply-To: <E1OjfX4-00029h-7h@shell.xmission.com> References: <AANLkTindsx1j5LzKT_R3uL5rncWwbzuX1Z84AnW0UE2R@mail.gmail.com> <E1OjfX4-00029h-7h@shell.xmission.com> Message-ID: <AANLkTikDJFY2OqQWPa4-E3wxfdnBxS1XDQvEgoJwOObx@mail.gmail.com> > What's in them? ?I have some and haven't cracked open the case. > <http://vt100.net/vt_history> doesn't mention anything about them not > actually being DEC inside. I have heard that the engineering was farmed out. DEC's terminal business was a shell of its former self back when the VT420 was introduced, so it may be true. -- Will From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Aug 12 18:45:00 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2010 16:45:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Pronouncing acronyms (was Re: DEC acronyms) In-Reply-To: <4C646B84.2090607@dunnington.plus.com> References: <m1Ojcnr-000J3xC@p850ug1> <4C646B84.2090607@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <20100812164244.S47600@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 12 Aug 2010, Pete Turnbull wrote: > In fact the last thing I recall him getting het up about re threads > was that he believes only special lubricants should be allowed near a > lens, and that what's suitably for a focussing screw wouldn't be the > same thing you'd want on the diaphragm. Can ANYBODY disagree with THAT??? From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Aug 12 19:13:11 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2010 17:13:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: GET LAMP is here In-Reply-To: <m1Ojd13-000J48C@p850ug1> References: <m1Ojd13-000J48C@p850ug1> Message-ID: <20100812171201.C47600@shell.lmi.net> > > In those days, parties were much more varied than they are now. > > The first time that I played Adventure (see! we don't know how to stay > > off-topic!), the first time that I saw an 8080 or Z80, my first hands-on > > with S100, flight simulator (pre-release?) on an Apple, were all at > > parties in the San Francisco area in the mid to late 1970s. On Thu, 12 Aug 2010, Tony Duell wrote: > Ah, right... Souns a bit like a certain event I attend once a month. In the 60s, and even the 70s, there were such parties every night, if you were so inclined. From legalize at xmission.com Thu Aug 12 20:39:57 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2010 19:39:57 -0600 Subject: Yet another food fight? (was RE: GET LAMP is here) In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 12 Aug 2010 19:42:01 -0400. <AANLkTikDJFY2OqQWPa4-E3wxfdnBxS1XDQvEgoJwOObx@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <E1OjjFV-0002op-Df@shell.xmission.com> In article <AANLkTikDJFY2OqQWPa4-E3wxfdnBxS1XDQvEgoJwOObx at mail.gmail.com>, William Donzelli <wdonzelli at gmail.com> writes: > DEC's terminal business was a shell of its former self back when the > VT420 was introduced, so it may be true. Maybe I'm thinking of the 240 instead? Does the 420 do graphics? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com/the-direct3d-graphics-pipeline/> Legalize Adulthood! <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com> From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Thu Aug 12 21:40:57 2010 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2010 21:40:57 -0500 Subject: Iomega Bernoulli Box 20+20 (A220H) In-Reply-To: <20100810101619.45753o01sx0vgask@webmail.brutman.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20100701171352.0ba34848@localhost>, <4C390EC0.5090003@brutman.com>, <4C5DD05D.9090906@brutman.com> <4C5D7B36.29751.2067603@cclist.sydex.com> <4C60E340.7090604@brutman.com> <4C60EB23.6000204@neurotica.com> <4C6158B0.9070804@brutman.com> <4C617EDD.8080106@neurotica.com> <20100810101619.45753o01sx0vgask@webmail.brutman.com> Message-ID: <4C64B0B9.7010405@brutman.com> Ok, some small progress. The 5.25" Bernoulli Box II (20MB) is working. I have a newer set of software (RCD v4.7), DOS 2.1, and the Iomega PC2B-50 interface card all running in an XT. My previous problem is that the newer drive didn't like the older Iomega software I was using. As an aside, the newer version of the software doesn't work under DOS 5. I think they claim to support only DOS 2.x and 3.x. I'm in the market for any newer version of the Iomega software for a Bernoulli box is somebody has a it stashed somewhere. The newer software looks like it works with the older 8" drives - the diagnostic program recognizes the drive. But my 10MB carts are not recognized by the drive - it spins them up, and then spins them down. All of the Iomega software reports that the drive is not ready. This is baffling to me because under Linux they were spinning up and staying online. (I'll have to move back to a Linux box again to verify that nothing has broken.) That box really needs a 20MB cartridge to prove that it works. But it's close. If anybody wants the RCD v4.7 drivers give me a shout off-list. Regards, Mike From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Aug 12 23:21:31 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2010 00:21:31 -0400 Subject: Yet another food fight? (was RE: GET LAMP is here) In-Reply-To: <E1OjjFV-0002op-Df@shell.xmission.com> References: <E1OjjFV-0002op-Df@shell.xmission.com> Message-ID: <4C64C84B.4070000@neurotica.com> On 8/12/10 9:39 PM, Richard wrote: >> DEC's terminal business was a shell of its former self back when the >> VT420 was introduced, so it may be true. > > Maybe I'm thinking of the 240 instead? Does the 420 do graphics? AFAIK the VT420 supports Sixel, but not ReGIS. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Aug 12 23:45:30 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2010 21:45:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: GET LAMP is here In-Reply-To: <20100812163822.S47600@shell.lmi.net> from Fred Cisin at "Aug 12, 10 04:41:07 pm" Message-ID: <201008130445.o7D4jUsq012828@floodgap.com> > > You didn't mention my favorite! STD-BUS. "Simple-to-design". > > I apologize for leaving out a truly important STD. > > "party like it's 1979"? > Hell, yes. The world has reassigned the most prevalent use of STD from > STD-BUS to Sexually Transmitted Diseases. Is THAT an improvement? On the bright side, VDT no longer has such a social stigma. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Furious activity is no substitute for understanding. -- H. H. Williams ----- From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 11 18:20:35 2010 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 16:20:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: NEC parallel to scsi host adapter Message-ID: <239443.94656.qm@web65509.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> part # is CDINT339 it allows you to plug in a SCSI device, and use your (parallel port) printer at the same time. Are drivers required? I remember Mike Brutman had one or something similar. He used it to drive a zip drive on a Peanut IIRC. Can anyone inform? Thank you kindly. The possibilities this item opens up are truly infinite. I can barely contain myself. From chrise at pobox.com Thu Aug 12 08:07:56 2010 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2010 08:07:56 -0500 Subject: GET LAMP is here In-Reply-To: <20100811145039.G1024@shell.lmi.net> References: <mailman.9.1281551753.1006.cctalk@classiccmp.org> <11EED621D12E4C02BCA581B1A706B6F5@vl420mt> <20100811145039.G1024@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20100812130756.GA21789@n0jcf.net> On Wednesday (08/11/2010 at 03:02PM -0700), Fred Cisin wrote: > > My current needs are simple, and I can get XP to do them quite adequately. > Which is good, because I spend a lot of time on machines owned by the > college, and I am not authorized to make any of the changes that I would > like. Right there's the problem-- that part about "not authorized". That's what makes MICROS~1 stuff and all the people and infrastructure behind it and around it a crime against humanity. These WERE, after all, personal computers. The OS itself is tolerable but the mindset that goes with the IT departments that deploy it-- this Nazi'esk, total control of everything, you must beg us to do anything-- way of operating is intolerable. Every organization I have been in, where MICROS~1 is _the_ choice, operates this way... and everyone from the CEO on down ends up a slave to the IT department. They decide when you will work and when you will not. They decide what your tools will be and how you will use them. They decide what is good enough for you and screw you if you want something a little different. You cannot go outside this tiny little box else you might cause IT to have to do some thinking and a little work. Does MICROS~1 offer special training that turns otherwise normal human beings into these kind of people? -- Chris Elmquist From csquared3 at tx.rr.com Thu Aug 12 16:31:47 2010 From: csquared3 at tx.rr.com (Charlie Carothers) Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2010 16:31:47 -0500 Subject: OT - sort of In-Reply-To: <m1OjcRc-000J3uC@p850ug1> References: <m1OjcRc-000J3uC@p850ug1> Message-ID: <4C646843.5090202@tx.rr.com> Tony Duell wrote: >> it up to explore the insides at all - yet. On the bottom next to the >> list of games are copyright dates from 1960 to 1983, the best I can > > I wonder what the copyright from 1960 covers? <snip> > -tony > I don't recall, and my daughter took it back home with her. I'll ask her to look tonight and see what she finds. I might have misread the number as it is sort of engraved/melted into black plastic, and the text is the same color as the background. It is rather small too and not very easy to read. BTW, the batteries ran down while it was here and they are 4 AA's. Later, Charlie C. From csquared3 at tx.rr.com Thu Aug 12 21:43:58 2010 From: csquared3 at tx.rr.com (Charlie Carothers) Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2010 21:43:58 -0500 Subject: OT - sort of In-Reply-To: <m1OjcRc-000J3uC@p850ug1> References: <m1OjcRc-000J3uC@p850ug1> Message-ID: <4C64B16E.4030905@tx.rr.com> Tony Duell wrote: > I wonder what the copyright from 1960 covers? <snip> > > -tony > My bad! The combination of poor quality text and my 71 year old eyes did me in again. :-) My daughter says if you turn it "just so" the Ms. Pac-Man copyright date does look like 1960, but it is actually 1980. Yep, that makes a lot more sense. In 1960 I suppose about the only thing to play a computer game on would have been either a mini or a mainframe - actually I think it would have had to be a mainframe. Based on a *very* quick web search, the first PDP-8 shipped in 1964, so if that was the first mini... Some might say the IBM 1620, introduced in 1959, was a mini but I think that is a stretch. Just for completeness, here are all the copyright dates as best my daughter can read them: Ms. Pac-Man 1980 Galaga 1981 Pole Position 1982 Mappy 1983 Xavious 1982 Later, Charlie C. From jpeterson at chinalake.com Thu Aug 12 22:54:08 2010 From: jpeterson at chinalake.com (J. Peterson) Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2010 23:54:08 -0400 Subject: AS/400e 9401-150 server needs a home - metro west Boston, MA Message-ID: <4C64C1E0.8030801@chinalake.com> Not really classic in this model, however: I have an AS/400e 9401-150 server and associated hardware that needs a new home. I obtained it last year and do not have the bandwidth to do anything with it. I have not powered the server up, but I was told it works. The front appears to have taken a hit in the lower left (dented grate behind and screw mount snapped--reglued) and the face shows some scrapes. The back half-round cover is missing. I believe the previous owner obtained it 2nd hand for dev work. 2-32 meg mem modules, 2-4.x gig drives (59H7001) se scsi, CD, QIC 4/8 DL SLR5 tape drive, 90H9241 twinax card. IBM 3477 InfoWindow terminal w/ 122 key kb. Found that the power button needs to be pressed down a bit when released (for ON) to have it catch. IBM 3197 terminal sans keyboard--never got it. Term powers up with 0A00 and 'k' on the bottom center. Two lexmark 4028 AS1 laser printers. I have a note on one from last year that the pickup roller is toast. The other says OK, but I will check again. Box of cables. Mostly T adapters or 9 and 15 pin D-subs, one twinax cable, one MAU (really), two terms, one 8-port fan-out (21F5093), and second 8-port fanout (mod# ?), plus a few baluns and odd pieces. There are plenty of Ts, but you will probably need more cable to hook up more than one or two devices. A few misc docs. CD/Floppies: V4 OS, Client Access for 95/NT, LanStreamer PCI diags Images: www.flickr.com/photos/31439100 at N05/sets/72157624713623016/ I don't want to part it out if I can help it--goes as one group. I'll keep the printer with the toasted roller for parts if it isn't wanted. Metro-west Boston, MA. Pick-up, or I'll deliver inside the 495 area on my schedule. I will store for a while, if you are really going to collect it, or relay it. --Jim jtp at chinalake.com From IanK at vulcan.com Fri Aug 13 01:09:31 2010 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2010 23:09:31 -0700 Subject: GET LAMP is here In-Reply-To: <20100812130756.GA21789@n0jcf.net> References: <mailman.9.1281551753.1006.cctalk@classiccmp.org> <11EED621D12E4C02BCA581B1A706B6F5@vl420mt> <20100811145039.G1024@shell.lmi.net>, <20100812130756.GA21789@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <FF6AB92D97A23A409701CDBF66F03FCD03DC3D189C@505fuji> You've never worked in a mainframe shop, have you? I'm not defending Microsoft, but neither they nor their products created the sort of approach you're describing. I remember having to get all sorts of special authorization to access the scratch environment on our Amdahl. Then I developed a process that saved the company hundreds of thousands of dollars a year (real dollars, paid to outside vendors) - not that I ever received any reward for that. In fact, I got chewed out - gently - for going outside my job description. I sympathize with people who just want to use better tools than those prescribed by the IT department, but I also sympathize with an IT department that has to spend endless hours helping people who don't really know what they're doing but insist on non-standard configurations. -- Ian ________________________________________ From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chris Elmquist [chrise at pobox.com] Sent: Thursday, August 12, 2010 6:07 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only Cc: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: GET LAMP is here On Wednesday (08/11/2010 at 03:02PM -0700), Fred Cisin wrote: > > My current needs are simple, and I can get XP to do them quite adequately. > Which is good, because I spend a lot of time on machines owned by the > college, and I am not authorized to make any of the changes that I would > like. Right there's the problem-- that part about "not authorized". That's what makes MICROS~1 stuff and all the people and infrastructure behind it and around it a crime against humanity. These WERE, after all, personal computers. The OS itself is tolerable but the mindset that goes with the IT departments that deploy it-- this Nazi'esk, total control of everything, you must beg us to do anything-- way of operating is intolerable. Every organization I have been in, where MICROS~1 is _the_ choice, operates this way... and everyone from the CEO on down ends up a slave to the IT department. They decide when you will work and when you will not. They decide what your tools will be and how you will use them. They decide what is good enough for you and screw you if you want something a little different. You cannot go outside this tiny little box else you might cause IT to have to do some thinking and a little work. Does MICROS~1 offer special training that turns otherwise normal human beings into these kind of people? -- Chris Elmquist From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Fri Aug 13 01:54:41 2010 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2010 08:54:41 +0200 Subject: SparcBook Tadpole In-Reply-To: <m1Ojcv3-000J43C@p850ug1> References: <20100811215935.788e4ce4.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <m1Ojcv3-000J43C@p850ug1> Message-ID: <20100813085441.dc1751b1.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Thu, 12 Aug 2010 19:54:21 +0100 (BST) ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > What is the battery? A lithium coin cell? Yes. > Having had all sorts of batteries leak over the years, I would be happer > if you could repmve the old battery (even if it makes a mess of the top > of the package. Is that possible? I never had problems with leaking lithium coin cells. You can remove the battery by cutting the top of the chip. But be carefull, the other half of the top contains the oszilator crystal of the RTC. I don't like to remove the battery because it weakens the top of the chip mechanicaly. (Though, you could fix the remaining part of the top with the crystal by putting some resin on it.) -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From pete at dunnington.plus.com Fri Aug 13 02:18:21 2010 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2010 08:18:21 +0100 Subject: Pronouncing acronyms (was Re: DEC acronyms) In-Reply-To: <20100812164244.S47600@shell.lmi.net> References: <m1Ojcnr-000J3xC@p850ug1> <4C646B84.2090607@dunnington.plus.com> <20100812164244.S47600@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4C64F1BD.4030703@dunnington.plus.com> On 13/08/2010 00:45, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Thu, 12 Aug 2010, Pete Turnbull wrote: >> In fact the last thing I recall him getting het up about re threads >> was that he believes only special lubricants should be allowed near a >> lens, and that what's suitably for a focussing screw wouldn't be the >> same thing you'd want on the diaphragm. > > Can ANYBODY disagree with THAT??? In a sane universe? But this was in a thread which included someone suggesting -- or maybe asking if -- a grease would be good simply because it was "food grade". Sure, if it's for an edible camera. Chuck suggested some research would turn up a list of appropriate attributes but refused to name any products, and that was deemed unhelpful. The way he did it set a few people off. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From nico at farumdata.dk Fri Aug 13 02:46:18 2010 From: nico at farumdata.dk (Nico de Jong) Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2010 09:46:18 +0200 Subject: NEC parallel to scsi host adapter References: <239443.94656.qm@web65509.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <7962445A8A844830A832D0AE61CED281@udvikling> > part # is CDINT339 > > it allows you to plug in a SCSI device, and use your (parallel port) > printer at the same time. > > Are drivers required? I remember Mike Brutman had one or something > similar. He used it to drive a zip drive on a Peanut IIRC. > > Can anyone inform? Thank you kindly. > I have two comparable converters just in front of me. One is called Shark, and the other one Shuttle Both NOS. I'll dig a bit deeper into the boxes when I've had my breakfast. Both are for sale. Nico From nico at farumdata.dk Fri Aug 13 03:39:53 2010 From: nico at farumdata.dk (Nico de Jong) Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2010 10:39:53 +0200 Subject: NEC parallel to scsi host adapter References: <239443.94656.qm@web65509.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <DA21DABD793A4C7F990B59D4FA1AF99D@udvikling> > part # is CDINT339 > > it allows you to plug in a SCSI device, and use your (parallel port) > printer at the same time. > "Shuttle" from Shuttle Techonology for DOS, OS/2, Netware and Windows (NT) Printer pass-throughj Powered from SCSI device or 5V supply converts printer port to 50 pin SCSI (Centronics type) The driver is version 4.27, "Shark" for DOS and OS/2 Printer Pass-through Includes Corel SCSI This one draws power from the keyboard (PS/2 type connector) converts printer port to 50 pin SCSI (Centronics type) Both have been used once, for connection to an Archive 6150 drive, and a Tandberg 3820. No problems. Both are from the mid 90's Nico From quapla at xs4all.nl Fri Aug 13 04:53:17 2010 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (E. Groenenberg) Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2010 11:53:17 +0200 Subject: Possible OT: not your normal price for an old dry cell Message-ID: <7fbb057407151a99163563e118208818.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> For those who want to have a laugh ebay item 300449402961 I'm still wondering if it is a type or not. Ed -- Dit is een HTML vrije email / This is an HTML free email. From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri Aug 13 08:27:08 2010 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2010 06:27:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: GET LAMP is here In-Reply-To: <20100812130756.GA21789@n0jcf.net> References: <mailman.9.1281551753.1006.cctalk@classiccmp.org> <11EED621D12E4C02BCA581B1A706B6F5@vl420mt> <20100811145039.G1024@shell.lmi.net> <20100812130756.GA21789@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.00.1008130619240.12050@grumble.deltasoft.com> On Thu, 12 Aug 2010, Chris Elmquist wrote: > box else you might cause IT to have to do some thinking and a little work. > > Does MICROS~1 offer special training that turns otherwise normal human > beings into these kind of people? Since I'm part of an IT department that locks things down, I can tell you it's basically self-defense. Malware people just _love_ windows. The best defense against it is to keep the hamsters from running every little gew-gaw they can get their sticky little fingers on. Even then you have to worry about drive-by attacks via banner ads in "safe" sites. Even though it's not my baliwick to deal with this stuff (I'm a Pick geek), I would much rather see boxen locked down than spend 90% of my time scrubbing machines from the latest malware infection. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri Aug 13 08:33:03 2010 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2010 06:33:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: GET LAMP is here In-Reply-To: <FF6AB92D97A23A409701CDBF66F03FCD03DC3D189C@505fuji> References: <mailman.9.1281551753.1006.cctalk@classiccmp.org> <11EED621D12E4C02BCA581B1A706B6F5@vl420mt> <20100811145039.G1024@shell.lmi.net>, <20100812130756.GA21789@n0jcf.net> <FF6AB92D97A23A409701CDBF66F03FCD03DC3D189C@505fuji> Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.00.1008130629260.12050@grumble.deltasoft.com> On Thu, 12 Aug 2010, Ian King wrote: > You've never worked in a mainframe shop, have you? I'm not defending > Microsoft, but neither they nor their products created the sort of > approach you're describing. > > I remember having to get all sorts of special authorization to access > the scratch environment on our Amdahl. Then I developed a process that > saved the company hundreds of thousands of dollars a year (real dollars, > paid to outside vendors) - not that I ever received any reward for that. > In fact, I got chewed out - gently - for going outside my job > description. > ..that reminds me of something else that makes it even worse. SOX compliance. If I had a time machine that I could only use a single time, I'd use it to go back in time and kill the CEOs of Enron, Worldcom, Tyco , Peregrine Systems and Adelphia as children. You haven't experienced soul-crushing asshattery of epic scales until you've been told to become "sox compliant". g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From legalize at xmission.com Fri Aug 13 09:07:06 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2010 08:07:06 -0600 Subject: GET LAMP is here In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 12 Aug 2010 08:07:56 -0500. <20100812130756.GA21789@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <E1OjuuY-0001wv-4s@shell.xmission.com> In article <20100812130756.GA21789 at n0jcf.net>, Chris Elmquist <chrise at pobox.com> writes: > The OS itself is tolerable but the mindset that goes with the IT > departments that deploy it-- this Nazi'esk, total control of everything, > you must beg us to do anything-- way of operating is intolerable. You mean things like: - limiting how much CPU time you can get per month - limiting what commands are available to you - limiting your network access - limiting your disk space - limiting the hours when you can logon - limiting the hours when you can run certain programs Oh wait, those are all the things that were done on vintage computing environments, sorry. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com/the-direct3d-graphics-pipeline/> Legalize Adulthood! <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com> From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Aug 13 09:22:04 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2010 07:22:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [gopher] OT: Anyone interested in text editor programming? (fwd) Message-ID: <201008131422.o7DEM4qL017766@floodgap.com> I figured some people on this list would want to play with this. >From the gopher-project mailing list. ----- Forwarded message from N. Theodore Matavka ----- From: "N. Theodore Matavka" <... at gmail.com> To: gopher-project at lists.alioth.debian.org Subject: [gopher] OT: Anyone interested in text editor programming? Hello, world! I know this is a Gopher mailing list, but I know that there are some budding developers among you. Recently, I have rescued some software from the bit bucket, and I am asking, if it is not too much, if there are any among you interested in bringing a great old editor back to the forefront. I am talking about TECO: the famously cryptic Text Editor and Corrector, now made far less cryptic due to the addition of a GUI. If you have ever done any amount of work on HP or DEC minis, you must know what I'm talking about. If not, here's a quick rundown: TECO was the first-ever programmer's editor to be written, in the tradition of vi and emacs. In fact, emacs is a direct descendant of TECO, having originally been called Editor Macros. It is included as system standard on all manner of VAXen and PDP-10s. Its one main drawback was that the buffer of text that was being worked on was not visible except on-demand, and one could completely mangle a document with just a few keystrokes, until someone managed to write a version of TECO that displayed the text buffer all the time. Video TECO is an attempt to re-create this great old editor in a version that any Tom, Dick, or Harry would understand. It was written by Paul Cantrell ten years ago; the files had been lost, until I discovered a snapshot of the source hiding in my e-mail inbox. I've even found a patch to make it run on Linux. So I've re-released it under the Sleepycat Licence, and I am currently enlisting developers to help me add new features and squash bugs. I've got plenty of documentation from DEC and HP as to how to work this editor; I've been using it for quite a while in its old version, and would surely appreciate video TECO. A version of video TECO already exists on VAX, and it is only by luck that I managed to find this version for PC. I have just put the files on SourceForge, and they are available at: https://sourceforge.net/projects/newteco/. Please assist me in this great endeavour. Cordially, Nick Matavka. _______________________________________________ Gopher-Project mailing list Gopher-Project at lists.alioth.debian.org http://lists.alioth.debian.org/mailman/listinfo/gopher-project ----- End of forwarded message from N. Theodore Matavka ----- -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- There are 10 kinds of people: those who read binary, and those who don't. -- From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Fri Aug 13 09:30:40 2010 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2010 09:30:40 -0500 Subject: GET LAMP is here In-Reply-To: <Pine.NEB.4.64.1008112151580.9112@otaku.freeshell.org> References: <m1OjFLg-000J3xC@p850ug1> <20100811134041.A1024@shell.lmi.net> <Pine.NEB.4.64.1008112151580.9112@otaku.freeshell.org> Message-ID: <4C655710.2050904@gmail.com> Alexey Toptygin wrote: > On Wed, 11 Aug 2010, Fred Cisin wrote: >> Surely a graphical browser, (if NOT done in a High Level Language) could >> be written to run on a 5150 with CGA. > > I don't know about that... Google is not what I'd call a > graphics-intensive site, but a single page of results is 64k html, and > about as much again in images. You can eat up 640k real fast that way, > and that doesn't include any of the code you need for a TCP/IP stack, > stub DNS resolver, parsing HTML (and let's not forget the memory cost of > intermediate representations, unless you want to pay for a full reparse > every time there's an exposure event) applying CSS, layout, rendering > any number of image formats, input handling, forms, cookies... Let's not > even think about supporting ECMA script, without which you won't be able > to use any web 2.0 sites, and I shudder to think of what you'd have to > do to try to run flash on an on-topic machine. Now you have me thinking about how fun it'd be to try if you hada few 5150s... maybe one for the network stack, one for display, and one for intermediate processing, all linked together via some homebrew parallel link :-) From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Aug 13 09:27:20 2010 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2010 07:27:20 -0700 Subject: Possible OT: not your normal price for an old dry cell In-Reply-To: <7fbb057407151a99163563e118208818.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> References: <7fbb057407151a99163563e118208818.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <p06240807c88b06a54131@[192.168.1.199]> At 11:53 AM +0200 8/13/10, E. Groenenberg wrote: >For those who want to have a laugh > >ebay item 300449402961 > >I'm still wondering if it is a type or not. My fear is that the price is not a typo, but what will really scare me is if someone buys it for that price! Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | From rivie at ridgenet.net Fri Aug 13 10:23:40 2010 From: rivie at ridgenet.net (Roger Ivie) Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2010 08:23:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [gopher] OT: Anyone interested in text editor programming? (fwd) In-Reply-To: <201008131422.o7DEM4qL017766@floodgap.com> References: <201008131422.o7DEM4qL017766@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <Pine.NEB.4.63.1008130816380.4196@stench.no.domain> On Fri, 13 Aug 2010, Cameron Kaiser wrote: e Video TECO is an attempt to re-create this great old editor in a > version that any Tom, Dick, or Harry would understand. It was written > by Paul Cantrell ten years ago; the files had been lost, until I > discovered a snapshot of the source hiding in my e-mail inbox. I've > even found a patch to make it run on Linux. So I've re-released it > under the Sleepycat Licence, and I am currently enlisting developers > to help me add new features and squash bugs. Hmm. I have a copy of it sitting here on my NetBSD box. Here's a snippet of the RELEASE_NOTES file: ---------------------------- revision 4.69 date: 1994/09/20 09:24:12; author: paul; state: Exp; lines: +26 -5 Added some different handling for magic cookie terminals for Sander van Malssen, as well as fixing an array length bug found by Mark Henderson. Also, added definitions for LINUX and SOLARIS. ---------------------------- I don't have a linux box, so I haven't tried building it for linux. Building it for bsd gives me a few warnings, but it seems to work. Didn't know anyone was looking for it. When I went looking for it a few years ago, I had to reach really far back in my personal archives of old CDs to find a copy. -- roger ivie rivie at ridgenet.net From cclist at sydex.com Fri Aug 13 11:38:53 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2010 09:38:53 -0700 Subject: NEC parallel to scsi host adapter In-Reply-To: <DA21DABD793A4C7F990B59D4FA1AF99D@udvikling> References: <239443.94656.qm@web65509.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>, <DA21DABD793A4C7F990B59D4FA1AF99D@udvikling> Message-ID: <4C6512AD.28994.1F1A47@cclist.sydex.com> On 13 Aug 2010 at 10:39, Nico de Jong wrote: > "Shark" > for DOS and OS/2 > Printer Pass-through > Includes Corel SCSI > This one draws power from the keyboard (PS/2 type connector) > converts printer port to 50 pin SCSI (Centronics type) If I had to guess, I'd venture that NEC used the Trantor T348 or T358 adapter, which Adaptec dutifully renamed the MA348 and MA358. My reasoning is that NEC was distributing their external CD-ROM drives with Trantor ISA cards (T160?) and probably stayed with the same vendor. The drive mechanisms were the same used in their early audio players-- they had the "push a button and the top swings open" setup. --Chuck From legalize at xmission.com Fri Aug 13 11:50:08 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2010 10:50:08 -0600 Subject: GET LAMP is here In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 13 Aug 2010 09:30:40 -0500. <4C655710.2050904@gmail.com> Message-ID: <E1OjxSK-0003k2-AW@shell.xmission.com> In article <4C655710.2050904 at gmail.com>, Jules Richardson <jules.richardson99 at gmail.com> writes: > Now you have me thinking about how fun it'd be to try if you hada few > 5150s... maybe one for the network stack, one for display, and one for > intermediate processing, all linked together via some homebrew parallel link :-) The easier approach IMO is to treat the 5150 as a smart terminal and put all the web browser smarts on another machine. The 5150 interacts with the browser through a serial port connection. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com/the-direct3d-graphics-pipeline/> Legalize Adulthood! <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com> From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Aug 13 13:20:24 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2010 14:20:24 -0400 Subject: Yet another food fight? (was RE: GET LAMP is here) In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikjYnuiYyAUE2Hm1sycCxXbdtPh6_4fR4R--_b+@mail.gmail.com> References: <m1OiZIF-000J48C@p850ug1> <20100809163517.M21499@shell.lmi.net> <4C60E2D8.4040301@jetnet.ab.ca> <20100809223554.N21499@shell.lmi.net> <022a01cb389c$6fa0e4a0$9201a8c0@portajara> <AANLkTimK9xyQjg2CMwqJ-w+ibQ61c-mOyBbDkdv-R-Ms@mail.gmail.com> <20100810195908.GA365@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> <4C61B202.1050403@neurotica.com> <20100810225432.GC365@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> <AANLkTi=vm4rJgjY0ZYS66d15Hkfv1ydJVm=JscM9LpQq@mail.gmail.com> <20100811070249.GA24723@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> <AANLkTikZKZ+VTamzirV=syG-9uDYh8ozUH_kSJQV=W-o@mail.gmail.com> <FF6AB92D97A23A409701CDBF66F03FCD03DC3E6E9C@505fuji> <AANLkTikdzVr2M-EEhrvuMaOvyEt4xL_Nf+BPGvkksHoU@mail.gmail.com> <4C63693E.8080801@neurotica.com> <FF6AB92D97A23A409701CDBF66F03FCD03DC3E6EAC@505fuji> <4C64469A.6050000@neurotica.com> <4C644BAC.4010707@gmail.com> <AANLkTikjYnuiYyAUE2Hm1sycCxXbdtPh6_4fR4R--_b+@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4C658CE8.7060508@neurotica.com> On 8/12/10 3:34 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >> I mostly use my two VT340s nowadays (thanks, Dave), but I have to say my >> favorite ASCII RS-232 serial terminal is the IBM 3153. Excellent keyboards. >> Can't say the same for the LK201 or LK401. > > Yes, those 315x terminals are nice. Especially the ones with keyboards > that actually fit inside a rack. > > I do not like the VT420 due to MMJ, the relatively low reliability, > and that CRAP power switch on the front. The keyboards are nothing to > write home about either, but DEC keyboards rarely are. I have to agree about the power switch design, it sucks. I'm accustomed to LK201s so I don't mind them so much, but I can see how people would dislike them, especially due to the placement of the control key. The MMJ, though...I don't see that as a big limitation. MMJ cables are readily available, as are crimp tools and connectors. I guess in my mostly DEC-centric world MMJs are so common that I don't really have a problem with them. Of course standard DB25s would have been a better design choice though. And let's hear it for keyboards that fit between the posts of a rack! The world needs more of those. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Fri Aug 13 12:29:28 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2010 14:29:28 -0300 Subject: GET LAMP is here References: <mailman.9.1281551753.1006.cctalk@classiccmp.org><11EED621D12E4C02BCA581B1A706B6F5@vl420mt><20100811145039.G1024@shell.lmi.net>, <20100812130756.GA21789@n0jcf.net> <FF6AB92D97A23A409701CDBF66F03FCD03DC3D189C@505fuji> Message-ID: <0d2801cb3b14$aea4ed20$9201a8c0@portajara> >I sympathize with people who just want to use better tools than those >prescribed by the IT department, but I also sympathize with an >IT >department that has to spend endless hours helping people who don't really >know what they're doing but insist on non-standard >configurations. -- Ian LMAO!!! :oD From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Aug 13 13:02:06 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2010 19:02:06 +0100 (BST) Subject: Pronouncing acronyms (was Re: DEC acronyms) In-Reply-To: <4C646B84.2090607@dunnington.plus.com> from "Pete Turnbull" at Aug 12, 10 10:45:40 pm Message-ID: <m1Ojya6-000J3xC@p850ug1> > >> Concerning dismantling lenses in order to clean helicoids, diaphragm > >> blades etc. you might be interested in Chuck Cole's opinions as > >> expressed in the ManualMinoltaFree Yahoo group. Somehow I imagine you > >> might disagree with him, or else you might explain your method of > >> dealing with the issues he feels so strongly about... > > > > Well, if he's suggesting spaying soemthing into the lens (yes, I have > > seen that suggested!), I certainly disapprove. If he;'s suggesting > > removing the optical elemenets and applyuing solvent/lubricantmix to the > > mount, then that's slightly better, but IMHO that's a method used by > > people who can't handle tools and small parts properly, and if you're not > > careful, it simply shifts the gummy lubricant, etc, elsewhere where it > > will cause toruble lateer. I really do prefer to clean each part separately. > > Chuck is also a regular contributor to the camera-fix group, and some > might describe him as, hmm, assertive perhaps, occasionally abrasive > maybe, and I've even seen someone describe him as arrogant. His > attitude to cleaning focussing mechanisms would certainly not involve > any aerosol, and lubricant (of a petrochemical variety at least) > wouldn't be part of his vocabulary in the context of an iris diaphragm! I thought somebody said I'd _disagree_ with him. So far I can see nothing to complain about. Oil is bad new on diaphragm blades, it causes htem to stick. They should be dry -- the only lubricant I would consider using would be graphite, and tht shouldn't be necessary. If a diaphragm is sluggish, it's normally becuaseit has lubricant, not because it;s lacking lubricant. > In fact the last thing I recall him getting het up about re threads > was that he believes only special lubricants should be allowed near a > lens, and that what's suitably for a focussing screw wouldn't be the I wouldn't go that far. I think the generic focusing grease avaiable from, say, MicroTools would be OK on most lens helical threads. Actualy, I've used normal high melting point grease there with no problems. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Aug 13 13:04:09 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2010 19:04:09 +0100 (BST) Subject: EPROM programming (27c160's) In-Reply-To: <06e901cb3a6c$e4fc4c90$9201a8c0@portajara> from "Alexandre Souza - Listas" at Aug 12, 10 07:05:15 pm Message-ID: <m1Ojyc4-000J3yC@p850ug1> > > > WILLEM!!! The specs and source code are still avaiable on the net :) Specs anmd source code for _what_? For EPROM programming, I am not suprised. But for programming _all_ manufacturers PALs or GALs or fusilble-link PROMs, I am amazed. Do you have the URL to hand? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Aug 13 13:10:30 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2010 19:10:30 +0100 (BST) Subject: GET LAMP is here In-Reply-To: <20100812152308.Q47600@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Aug 12, 10 03:42:29 pm Message-ID: <m1OjyiE-000J43C@p850ug1> > > On Thu, 12 Aug 2010, Tony Duell wrote: > > > Surely a graphical browser, (if NOT done in a High Level Language) could > > > be written to run on a 5150 with CGA. > > I think most graphical web pages would be pretty much useless at 320*200 > > in 4 pre-chosen colours... > > More useless than they are on this POS with VGA? You are running POS (or P/OS) on a machine with a VGA display? (Sorry, couldn't resist)... I can't comment... I've nto seen your machine. But considering much of the web does seem to be useless, I doubt it matters what displays it. > > > > IIRC the origianl 5150 couldn't take a hard disk. > > Could be done, using a floppy boot disk with certain startup code. > Did any of them use the "extra" ROM socket on the 5150? > > > So with a maximum, of 640K or RAM > EMS (LIM?) Although MOST expanded memory systems were 16 bit, and written > with 286 code, there WERE 8 bit EMS boards, and 808x software. This started as 'an easy project to make a machine to display graphic web pages'.Doesn;t sound all that easy to me. I think it would eb less work to design the machine (and processor :-)) from scratch... [...] > I saw 8 bit hard drives running on PCs, and even on Apple][, and TRS80 I wonder what an '8 bit ahrd drive' is. A cotnroller with an 8 bit data bus on the host interface? > model 3! I hve one on my Model 4 (same interface as the M3, of course). It's a 3rd party one made by Cumana, who are better known for their floppy drive units for the BBC micro. This hard disk unit contains an ST612 (IIRC), a WD controler board, an SMPSU and a little bus interface (3 or 4 TTL chips). Of course there were also hard disks for the BBC micro. The Acorn one is not too hard to find, the Torch one is very rare in my experience... But this doesn't make displaying graphical web pages any easier, nor does it solve the download time problem -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Aug 13 13:13:31 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2010 19:13:31 +0100 (BST) Subject: GOT LAMP In-Reply-To: <20100812154648.N47600@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Aug 12, 10 03:53:20 pm Message-ID: <m1Ojyl9-000J48C@p850ug1> > > There was some discussion earlier about the nature of the fuel for the > lamp. Although it is explicitly battery operated (see vending machine!), > It was generally assumed not to be a conventional torch/flashlight. I always assumed it was an electrically powered lantern (one game described it as a 'brass lantern' IIRC. In other words electrically identical to a nromal torch/flashlight, but mechancially different. > > Well, a friend knew that I was in need of a better power failure light, > and gave me a lamp. It looks like an ordinary "hurricane lantern". But, > instead of combustion, it has more than a dozen LEDs! The "fuel tank" Colossal Cave and Zork long poredate whtie LEDs :-) > has a door on the bottom for batteries. What appears to be > a liquid fuel tank cap rotates, and is actually an ON/OFF switch and They should have had a little rod coming out the side below the glass part for that, like the wick adjustment on a real huricane lamp. > dimmer control! I'm not used to seeing reasonably smooth dimming with > LEDs. I would assume it varies the mark:space ration of a drive waveform. Have you dismantled it to see what's inside? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Aug 13 13:14:53 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2010 19:14:53 +0100 (BST) Subject: Pronouncing acronyms (was Re: DEC acronyms) In-Reply-To: <20100812164244.S47600@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Aug 12, 10 04:45:00 pm Message-ID: <m1OjymS-000J49C@p850ug1> > > In fact the last thing I recall him getting het up about re threads > > was that he believes only special lubricants should be allowed near a > > lens, and that what's suitably for a focussing screw wouldn't be the > > same thing you'd want on the diaphragm. > > Can ANYBODY disagree with THAT??? Oh, I am sure therre's somebody who disagrees with that. Somebody who owns a lens with a totally stuck diaphragm, of course. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Aug 13 13:16:37 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2010 19:16:37 +0100 (BST) Subject: Yet another food fight? (was RE: GET LAMP is here) In-Reply-To: <E1OjjFV-0002op-Df@shell.xmission.com> from "Richard" at Aug 12, 10 07:39:57 pm Message-ID: <m1Ojyo7-000J4AC@p850ug1> > Maybe I'm thinking of the 240 instead? Does the 420 do graphics? They look totally differnt. The VT240 is a box about half the height of n IBM 5150 PC with a serate mono (VR201) or colour (VR241) monitor. The VT420 is built into the same case that cotnains the CRT. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Aug 13 13:18:48 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2010 19:18:48 +0100 (BST) Subject: OT - sort of In-Reply-To: <4C64B16E.4030905@tx.rr.com> from "Charlie Carothers" at Aug 12, 10 09:43:58 pm Message-ID: <m1OjyqF-000J4CC@p850ug1> > My bad! The combination of poor quality text and my 71 year old eyes > did me in again. :-) My daughter says if you turn it "just so" the Ms. > Pac-Man copyright date does look like 1960, but it is actually 1980. OK, that makes more sense. > Yep, that makes a lot more sense. In 1960 I suppose about the only > thing to play a computer game on would have been either a mini or a > mainframe - actually I think it would have had to be a mainframe. Based > on a *very* quick web search, the first PDP-8 shipped in 1964, so if > that was the first mini... Some might say the IBM 1620, introduced in > 1959, was a mini but I think that is a stretch. THe PDP1 was around in the very early 1960s IIRC. And Spacewar, of course, ran on it. I would class that machine as a mini, but others may not. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Aug 13 13:31:09 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2010 19:31:09 +0100 (BST) Subject: SparcBook Tadpole In-Reply-To: <20100813085441.dc1751b1.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> from "Jochen Kunz" at Aug 13, 10 08:54:41 am Message-ID: <m1Ojz2B-000J4GC@p850ug1> > > On Thu, 12 Aug 2010 19:54:21 +0100 (BST) > ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > > > What is the battery? A lithium coin cell? > Yes. > > > Having had all sorts of batteries leak over the years, I would be happer > > if you could repmve the old battery (even if it makes a mess of the top > > of the package. Is that possible? > I never had problems with leaking lithium coin cells. I can;t rememebr if I have. I've had jsut about every other kind of battery leak, though.. > You can remove the battery by cutting the top of the chip. But be > carefull, the other half of the top contains the oszilator crystal of > the RTC. I don't like to remove the battery because it weakens the top Of course, For the moment I'd forgotten about that xtal. I asusme it's a norm,al 32768Jz one. How are the connections fro the battey and crystal made to the chip itelf? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Aug 13 13:37:33 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2010 19:37:33 +0100 (BST) Subject: GET LAMP is here In-Reply-To: <FF6AB92D97A23A409701CDBF66F03FCD03DC3D189C@505fuji> from "Ian King" at Aug 12, 10 11:09:31 pm Message-ID: <m1Ojz8N-000J4HC@p850ug1> > I sympathize with people who just want to use better tools than those presc= > ribed by the IT department, but I also sympathize with an IT department tha= > t has to spend endless hours helping people who don't really know what they= > 're doing but insist on non-standard configurations. -- Ian=20 There is an attitude that's prevalent over here that if you ware not empluyed to do <foo> or if you don't have a bit of paper saying you can do <foo> then you must be totally clueless about <foo> In this cae, if ytou're not a member of the IT department, then you can't ppossibly know anything about computers. In some cases that may well be true, but somebody employed, say, as oftware developer or an electronic design engineer is likely to have some idea about to configure his PC and what tools he wants to use on it. This is nto a new problem, BTW. I ran into it over 20 years ago when the computer I wished to use as part of dedicated data logging/control system was forbiddend becase the IT depeatment couldn't repair it and coulding get the components to fix it. Poinint out that I was planning on gettign the full service manaul containing scheamtics and that all the components (in the sense that I use the term) were avaiable from RS and/or Farnell didn't help... This was when I discovered that there are plenty of so-called 'hardware support' people who can't follow a simple sxcehmatics and plenty of 'customer support' people in computer companies who's idea of support is to read the manual to you very slowly, mis-pronouncing many of the technical terms. I was not amused... -tony From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Aug 13 13:54:45 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2010 14:54:45 -0400 Subject: SparcBook Tadpole In-Reply-To: <SNT129-W7A87A12CD210EFCB24952A3970@phx.gbl> References: <992230.97947.qm@web52604.mail.re2.yahoo.com>, , , <SNT129-W35920212CCFBCE4CAABE45A3950@phx.gbl>, , , <4C60BEAC.5080609@neurotica.com>, , <SNT129-W61D71C38D99D6E6DB2BFB3A3960@phx.gbl>, , <08fa01cb3967$3f6269a0$9201a8c0@portajara>, , <FF6AB92D97A23A409701CDBF66F03FCD03DC3E6EA0@505fuji>, <SNT129-W11234506A4545FAB51FE17A3960@phx.gbl>, <4C634204.5070500@neurotica.com> <SNT129-W7A87A12CD210EFCB24952A3970@phx.gbl> Message-ID: <4C6594F5.7070308@neurotica.com> On 8/12/10 9:35 AM, dwight elvey wrote: >>> My problem is that I don't know if I can restore the information in it. >>> The early Sparcbooks didn't have openboot. >> >> Under SunOS, you can use the program called "eeprom" to dump out most >> of the important contents. As far as restoring it, I'm not sure about >> that, as I don't know what ROM-based code the very early SPARCbooks use. >> >> One way to do it might be to read it out using an EPROM programmer. >> My Data I/O supports the MK48T02, for example. > > I think I can read it with my programmer. At least with an adapter to make > it think it is a 2716. > I tried the "eeprom" and it didn't work :( > This must be before someon realized it was a good idea. Acording > to the history page I saw, the SparcBook was relatively early in > the history of things. That model of SparcBook is quite old, yes. So the eeprom program isn't present, or it failed to function? It definitely existed in that release of SunOS; it's possible that Tadpole's hardware was incompatible. Their SPARC laptops really didn't start to become very compatible at the hardware level until the "3" series. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Aug 13 13:57:08 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2010 14:57:08 -0400 Subject: SparcBook Tadpole In-Reply-To: <SNT129-W4128DAC677437D7D2F89CAA3970@phx.gbl> References: <992230.97947.qm@web52604.mail.re2.yahoo.com>, , , , <SNT129-W35920212CCFBCE4CAABE45A3950@phx.gbl>, , , , <4C60BEAC.5080609@neurotica.com>, , , <SNT129-W61D71C38D99D6E6DB2BFB3A3960@phx.gbl>, , , <08fa01cb3967$3f6269a0$9201a8c0@portajara>, , , <FF6AB92D97A23A409701CDBF66F03FCD03DC3E6EA0@505fuji>, , <SNT129-W11234506A4545FAB51FE17A3960@phx.gbl>, , <4C634204.5070500@neurotica.com>, <SNT129-W7A87A12CD210EFCB24952A3970@phx.gbl> <SNT129-W4128DAC677437D7D2F89CAA3970@phx.gbl> Message-ID: <4C659584.20706@neurotica.com> On 8/12/10 10:08 AM, dwight elvey wrote: >>> Under SunOS, you can use the program called "eeprom" to dump out most >>> of the important contents. As far as restoring it, I'm not sure about >>> that, as I don't know what ROM-based code the very early SPARCbooks use. >>> >>> One way to do it might be to read it out using an EPROM programmer. >>> My Data I/O supports the MK48T02, for example. >> >> I think I can read it with my programmer. At least with an adapter to make >> it think it is a 2716. >> I tried the "eeprom" and it didn't work :( >> This must be before someon realized it was a good idea. Acording >> to the history page I saw, the SparcBook was relatively early in >> the history of things. > > Do you think I could use the program adb with /dev/nvram? > Could I use it to display and or edit the nvram values? If /dev/eeprom or /dev/nvram exists, you may be able to use that. Try to dump the contents via that interface and see if it actually maps to the hardware. You can try "od -x /dev/nvram" to do a hex dump. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Fri Aug 13 14:43:25 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2010 16:43:25 -0300 Subject: EPROM programming (27c160's) References: <m1Ojyc4-000J3yC@p850ug1> Message-ID: <0e8301cb3b22$32eada10$9201a8c0@portajara> http://web.archive.org/web/20080621113020/http://www.willem.org/ I think I still have an image of the old site on my desktop, mail me if you want that ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" <ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk> To: <cctalk at classiccmp.org> Sent: Friday, August 13, 2010 3:04 PM Subject: Re: EPROM programming (27c160's) >> >> >> WILLEM!!! The specs and source code are still avaiable on the net :) > > Specs anmd source code for _what_? > > For EPROM programming, I am not suprised. But for programming _all_ > manufacturers PALs or GALs or fusilble-link PROMs, I am amazed. Do you > have the URL to hand? > > -tony From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Aug 13 15:22:44 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2010 13:22:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: NEC parallel to scsi host adapter In-Reply-To: <DA21DABD793A4C7F990B59D4FA1AF99D@udvikling> References: <239443.94656.qm@web65509.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <DA21DABD793A4C7F990B59D4FA1AF99D@udvikling> Message-ID: <20100813131943.B83233@shell.lmi.net> The early "candy bar" version of the NEC was the same as the Trantor. Yes, there was a set of drivers (ASPI?) Later, they were replaced by circuitry within molded connectors in a cable. Wasn't Trantor absorbed by Adaptec at some point? From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Aug 13 15:30:26 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2010 13:30:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: GET LAMP is here In-Reply-To: <E1OjxSK-0003k2-AW@shell.xmission.com> from Richard at "Aug 13, 10 10:50:08 am" Message-ID: <201008132030.o7DKUQhg014972@floodgap.com> > > Now you have me thinking about how fun it'd be to try if you hada few > > 5150s... maybe one for the network stack, one for display, and one for > > intermediate processing, all linked together via some homebrew parallel > > link :-) > > The easier approach IMO is to treat the 5150 as a smart terminal and > put all the web browser smarts on another machine. The 5150 interacts > with the browser through a serial port connection. I did that for HyperLink 2.5 for the C64. A Perl proxy ran on the other side and distilled down HTML into an intermediate page description language that the C64 displayed. It worked pretty well, but if I did it again, I would have made the page language more SGML-like (it was based on an earlier offline hypermedia package I wrote that I repurposed as a browser). -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Talkers are no good doers. -- Shakespeare ---------------------------------- From pete at dunnington.plus.com Fri Aug 13 15:28:13 2010 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2010 21:28:13 +0100 Subject: Pronouncing acronyms (was Re: DEC acronyms) In-Reply-To: <m1Ojya6-000J3xC@p850ug1> References: <m1Ojya6-000J3xC@p850ug1> Message-ID: <4C65AADD.9050408@dunnington.plus.com> On 13/08/2010 19:02, Tony Duell wrote: >> In fact the last thing I recall him getting het up about re threads >> was that he believes only special lubricants should be allowed near a >> lens, and that what's suitably for a focussing screw wouldn't be the > > I wouldn't go that far. I think the generic focusing grease avaiable > from, say, MicroTools would be OK on most lens helical threads. Actualy, > I've used normal high melting point grease there with no problems. Sure, but you wouldn't use silicone grease (because it creeps) and you'd not use some random grease from the food industry. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Aug 13 15:47:13 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2010 13:47:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: GET LAMP is here In-Reply-To: <m1OjyiE-000J43C@p850ug1> References: <m1OjyiE-000J43C@p850ug1> Message-ID: <20100813134321.K83233@shell.lmi.net> > > More useless than they are on this POS with VGA? On Fri, 13 Aug 2010, Tony Duell wrote: > I can't comment... I've nto seen your machine. But considering much of > the web does seem to be useless, I doubt it matters what displays it. exactly > This started as 'an easy project to make a machine to display graphic web > pages'.Doesn;t sound all that easy to me. I think it would eb less work > to design the machine (and processor :-)) from scratch... "less work"? certainly more fun > > I saw 8 bit hard drives running on PCs, and even on Apple][, and TRS80 > I wonder what an '8 bit ahrd drive' is. A cotnroller with an 8 bit data > bus on the host interface? yes. I knew that you would catch me on that one. What does the 'h' stand for in "ahrd" drive? From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Aug 13 16:08:51 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2010 14:08:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: NEC parallel to scsi host adapter In-Reply-To: <4C6512AD.28994.1F1A47@cclist.sydex.com> References: <239443.94656.qm@web65509.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>, <DA21DABD793A4C7F990B59D4FA1AF99D@udvikling> <4C6512AD.28994.1F1A47@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20100813140535.A83233@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 13 Aug 2010, Chuck Guzis wrote: > If I had to guess, I'd venture that NEC used the Trantor T348 or T358 > adapter, which Adaptec dutifully renamed the MA348 and MA358. earlier, the T338 There were some subtle differences between the "blue label" and "black label" versions Also, they recommended NOT using Apple SCSI cables, due to a difference in the TERMPWR pin > The drive mechanisms were the same used in their early audio players-- > they had the "push a button and the top swings open" setup. and an optional battery pack! From fryers at gmail.com Fri Aug 13 16:14:21 2010 From: fryers at gmail.com (Simon Fryer) Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2010 21:14:21 +0000 Subject: SUN Equipment Available in Cheltenham UK Message-ID: <AANLkTi=984NnYmrNy+n8-ao9HB7zVt8gOL2EhyRGjH2t@mail.gmail.com> G'Day, I am in the process of cleaning out my collection of systems pending a move to Australia. I have the following SUN systems I would like to pass onto collectors: SUN E450 (unsure if it has memory, no disks, I was given a SCSI controller for it but I think the controller is HVD). SUN SPARCstation 2. It has memory (I forget what amount). 2 x 200MB Disks, NVRAM hack with external battery. SUN 411 disk enclosure with disk. I forget what size the disk is. I am also parting out a SUN IPC if anyone wants parts - power supply went (was swapped into a machine that I want to take with me.) I also have a couple of 50 pin SE SCSI HDD with capacities in the range of a couple of hundred MBs. Collect from Cheltenham UK or anywhere I might pass in the UK - which for work means a lot of the UK. I am also happy to ship anything except the E450. Thanks. Simon -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "Well, an engineer is not concerned with the truth; that is left to philosophers and theologians: the prime concern of an engineer is the utility of the final product." Lectures on the Electrical Properties of Materials, L.Solymar, D.Walsh From shumaker at att.net Fri Aug 13 16:18:04 2010 From: shumaker at att.net (steve shumaker) Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2010 17:18:04 -0400 Subject: free pdp stuff in Lima OH Message-ID: <4C65B68C.6060905@att.net> 2 11/44s, some disks and misc looks to be in quite good condition - at least cosmetically FREE to good home according to the ad Craigs List http://limaohio.craigslist.org/sys/1895340054.html steve From fryers at gmail.com Fri Aug 13 16:23:24 2010 From: fryers at gmail.com (Simon Fryer) Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2010 21:23:24 +0000 Subject: CAMAC Crate Available Cheltenham UK Message-ID: <AANLkTinyUXiYziSg+xqQ7BZQ6EDfdX37kk5+xKDFWQ87@mail.gmail.com> G'Day, I have accumulated a CAMAC crate that, despite my best intentions, I am never going to use. I have a whole load of cards for it. If anyone is interested I'll produce a list of cards. The crate and cards have spent some time at CERN and looking at the stickers on it, at other laboratories around the UK. As usual, I am happy to deliver in the UK if it is not too far from where I may be passing - which can be a lot of the UK. Otherwise it is collect from Cheltenham. I may consider posting if anyone is serious enough - weighs well in excess of 20kg, and quite possibly 30+kg. Thanks. Simon -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "Well, an engineer is not concerned with the truth; that is left to philosophers and theologians: the prime concern of an engineer is the utility of the final product." Lectures on the Electrical Properties of Materials, L.Solymar, D.Walsh From cclist at sydex.com Fri Aug 13 17:01:42 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2010 15:01:42 -0700 Subject: NEC parallel to scsi host adapter In-Reply-To: <20100813131943.B83233@shell.lmi.net> References: <239443.94656.qm@web65509.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>, <DA21DABD793A4C7F990B59D4FA1AF99D@udvikling>, <20100813131943.B83233@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4C655E56.23742.146A798@cclist.sydex.com> On 13 Aug 2010 at 13:22, Fred Cisin wrote: > The early "candy bar" version of the NEC was the same as the Trantor. > Yes, there was a set of drivers (ASPI?) > > Later, they were replaced by circuitry within molded connectors in a > cable. > > Wasn't Trantor absorbed by Adaptec at some point? Yup, quite a while back, just before Adaptec bought Future Domain. PMC bought the channel storage business of Adaptec and the Adaptec name in June. So, Adaptec is now "Adaptec by PMC". It's very confusing: http://www.adaptec.com/NR/rdonlyres/3E3E6FD1-ED13-4668-8EF7- 4DD384B3B0B5/0/customer_letter_07202010.pdf Another chapter in the musical chairs of the SCSI business; e.g. NCR- >Symbios->AT&T->Hyundai->LSI Logic. Can't tell the players without a program. If the OP is looking for drivers, I probably have them from the NEC CD-ROM kit. --Chuck From bqt at softjar.se Fri Aug 13 03:12:39 2010 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2010 10:12:39 +0200 Subject: Terminals... In-Reply-To: <mailman.16.1281618930.1006.cctalk@classiccmp.org> References: <mailman.16.1281618930.1006.cctalk@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <4C64FE77.5060906@softjar.se> Dave McGuire <mcguire at neurotica.com> wrote: > On 8/11/10 11:21 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >>> >> Of course, shipping for, say a hundred VT520s is significantly higher than for those modern replacements - even when you add in the (now LCD) screen. Oh that's right, you can just go down to Best Buy (which rarely is) to buy the screens.... >> > >> > I doubt shipping costs would be so much of an issue - VT520s, if they >> > are anything like VT420s, are not very heavy. If company X needs >> > several hundred dumb terminals spread around in their system, I bet >> > they would have enough of their own shipping going on, and the VTs >> > could hang on the sides of the trucks for free. >> > >>> >> That's not to say I don't have a personal preference for the originals - I have mostly VT420s at home, and we're refurbishing a bunch of VT100s and VT52s here at work. -- Ian >> > >> > OK, I will say it - VT420s suck. > > What don't you like about VT420s? They're my favorite of the line, > followed closely by VT320 then VT220. I don't like VT520s at all. I like the VT5xx series, just as I like all other VT-terminals. However, I've had problems with power supplies of VT320, and VT340 terminals, and have had problems with the displays going weak on VT420 terminals. In a way, I think the VT525 is pretty optimal. External screen with VGA connection, so I can use any PC screen, including flat screens. The fact that the VT5xx terminals use a PC keyboard connection sucks some, but I can live with that, since I atleast have proper DEC layout keyboards anyway. And color, in addition to that. The only thing missing is ReGIS and SIXBIT graphics. But, to make a comment on the original topic here - I don't really think that new VT terminals are more expensive than buying a PC. Yes, the initial cost is larger, but I definitely expect a VT520 to last way longer than a PC, and buying two or three PCs, and additionally to have to service, update, install, and work on the machines will make them cost way more than a new VT520 within just a year or two. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From bqt at softjar.se Fri Aug 13 03:27:09 2010 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2010 10:27:09 +0200 Subject: Terminals... In-Reply-To: <mailman.20.1281656478.1006.cctalk@classiccmp.org> References: <mailman.20.1281656478.1006.cctalk@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <4C6501DD.4030309@softjar.se> Dave McGuire <mcguire at neurotica.com> wrote: > Not at all, I just wanted to know what he didn't like about them. The > only thing I dislike about VT420s is the non-removable power cables. Huh? My VT420s have removable power cords... William Donzelli <wdonzelli at gmail.com> wrote: > I do not like the VT420 due to MMJ, the relatively low reliability, > and that CRAP power switch on the front. The keyboards are nothing to > write home about either, but DEC keyboards rarely are. Interesting, how different peoples view can be. The VT420 have both DB25 and MMJ, so I can't see how that could annoy anyone. (As do all DEC terminals from the VT220 onwards.) However, MMJ is actually very nice. Too bad it didn't catch on outside of DEC. But I try to use it for everything I can at home. The power switch I can agree on. I don't fancy that slider. Keyboards... I know people have very different opinions on those, but I think the LK201 and LK402 keyboards are wonderful. I really dislike IBM PC keyboards. Way too long key presses, and to much klickety klack. And all the copies of them are even worse. The VT100 keyboard is not a favorite, though. That one also have too much travel when pressing a key. No, I can't honestly think of a keyboard I like better than the LK201 and LK401. And I really think they layout is way better than what IBM dreamt up. The reliability of the VT420 seems to be pretty decent. I've had many more VT320 fail on me. But we have to remember that we're talking about 20+ year old equipment now... Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From chrise at pobox.com Fri Aug 13 07:32:35 2010 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2010 07:32:35 -0500 Subject: EPROM programming (27c160's) In-Reply-To: <4C633271.3090202@philpem.me.uk> References: <992230.97947.qm@web52604.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008110748020.3268@duo> <4C633271.3090202@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <20100813123235.GA28341@n0jcf.net> On Thursday (08/12/2010 at 12:29AM +0100), Philip Pemberton wrote: > On 11/08/10 12:52, Steven Hirsch wrote: >> I purchased an Andromeda Research AR-32A programming system. Best money >> I ever spent! The base unit covers an enormous number of EPROMs and they >> have adapters for just about anything else imaginable. Best yet: They >> will sell you the bare boards for any of the adapters, provide a >> schematic and let you have at it. >> >> Their tech support is superlative. Very knowledgable folks. >> >> And, yes, the software runs as a DOS application :-). > > I'm still waiting for an EPROM programmer with Linux software available. There's these, http://www.conitec.com/english/pricing.php which not only have Linux host apps to run them... they actually run Linux as the embedded OS in the programmer. > I'm actually tempted to do a GAL/fuse-PROM programmer seeing as my > GALBlast won't work worth a damn on this machine :( The above does PALs and GALs too (at least the most popular 16*8, 20*8 and 22*10 flavors). I don't have one yet... but soon. Chris -- Chris Elmquist From jonas at otter.se Fri Aug 13 14:24:04 2010 From: jonas at otter.se (Jonas Otter) Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2010 19:24:04 +0000 Subject: Pronouncing acronyms (was Re: DEC acronyms) In-Reply-To: <mailman.22.1281677425.1006.cctech@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <cdaNct6Y.1281727444.1848930.jotter@howe.textdrive.com> Sorry about being so unclear, I thought you might be a member of the group in question. Actually, it is quite the opposite, he keeps saying that you shouldn't take a lens apart without having sophisticated equipment to collimate the lens when putting it together again, as well as considerable experience using the equipment, unless you want to have a clean but expensive paperweight. He thinks that if you just put it back together again the optical performance will be terrible. I wouldn't know, I haven't tried. I'm not sure I believe that companies like Minolta who made thousands of lenses wouldn't have worked out a way to make the optical elements self-aligning or something. It sounds like a lot of expense for a manufacturing process for consumer items. Anyway he claims to have years of experience designing stuff for spy satellites or something, however that might relate to commercial camera manufacturing. /Jonas On 8/13/2010, ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > >Well, if he's suggesting spaying soemthing into the lens (yes, I have >seen that suggested!), I certainly disapprove. If he;'s suggesting >removing the optical elemenets and applyuing solvent/lubricantmix to the >mount, then that's slightly better, but IMHO that's a method used by >people who can't handle tools and small parts properly, and if you're not >careful, it simply shifts the gummy lubricant, etc, elsewhere where it >will cause toruble lateer. I really do prefer to clean each part separately. > >-tony > From jonas at otter.se Fri Aug 13 14:35:26 2010 From: jonas at otter.se (Jonas Otter) Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2010 19:35:26 +0000 Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 84, Issue 16 In-Reply-To: <mailman.22.1281677425.1006.cctech@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <MFbkk3qs.1281728126.6972600.jotter@howe.textdrive.com> Use alkaline or silver oxide. Any small error in exposure caused by the difference in voltage is compensated for by the exposure latitude of the film. I had my OM-1 modified with the Schottky diode setup, works perfectly. I believe it would probably work just as well without the diode. And as far as the diode goes, I have heard one person claim that it is entirely pointless because the voltage drop over the diode varies so much with the ambient temperature that the compensating effect is essentially nullified. Don't waste your money on any fancy adapters, or expensive zinc-air batteries either. Alkalines work perfectly well enough. /Jonas On 8/13/2010, somebody and Tony Duell wrote: >> battery: that's a problem with my Minolta SRT series SLRs, where the > >I think that's unlikey. The voltage is not too critical (it needs to be >between 3-ish ance 5V, I think). I have had success using a couple of AA >cells in series (normal 1.5V Duracells) as a replaemeent for a backup >coil cell in some systems. No, they don't last as long (shelf life is >lower), but they are avaialble _anywhere_. > >> excellent TTL metering doesn't work anymore because it was designed to >> be powered by mercury cells that I can't buy anymore. > > >While you can, alas, no longer get mercury batteries, there are plenty of >work-arounds for this. If the STT101 I've just picked up from my pile of >odd cameras is anythign to go by, it takes a single PX13/PX625 cell. >There is an alkaline equivelent that's the same size, but highter >voltage, and I susepct, alas, the Mimnolta meter woudl care about that. >Often connecting a single shottky diode in sereis with the cell will do >the teick, if there's space inside the camera (sorry, I've not pulled the >bottm plate to check), then it's easy to add it. If there isn't space, >then there's a fairly expensive adapterwhich takes a smaller alkanline >cell and includes a series diode. Or you could make soemthing like that. >Or a new battrey cover containing contacts with wires leading to an >external PSU of the right voltage. > From bqt at softjar.se Fri Aug 13 16:51:24 2010 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2010 23:51:24 +0200 Subject: Terminals. In-Reply-To: <mailman.3.1281718803.98986.cctalk@classiccmp.org> References: <mailman.3.1281718803.98986.cctalk@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <4C65BE5C.9020500@softjar.se> Dave McGuire <mcguire at neurotica.com> wrote: > On 8/12/10 9:39 PM, Richard wrote: >>> >> DEC's terminal business was a shell of its former self back when the >>> >> VT420 was introduced, so it may be true. >> > >> > Maybe I'm thinking of the 240 instead? Does the 420 do graphics? > > AFAIK the VT420 supports Sixel, but not ReGIS. No. The last graphic terminal was the VT340. The VT420 don't support any graphics, unless you count the user defined font as graphics. Graphics implies either SIXEL, ReGIS or both. Actually, I've never seen any terminal that supports sixel but not ReGIS, however, several printers is of that inclination. (Although I'm sure someone will now recall some terminal that do sixel but not ReGIS just because I wrote the above... :-) ). Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Aug 13 19:47:07 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2010 20:47:07 -0400 Subject: Terminals... In-Reply-To: <4C6501DD.4030309@softjar.se> References: <mailman.20.1281656478.1006.cctalk@classiccmp.org> <4C6501DD.4030309@softjar.se> Message-ID: <4C65E78B.4090102@neurotica.com> On 8/13/10 4:27 AM, Johnny Billquist wrote: >> Not at all, I just wanted to know what he didn't like about them. The >> only thing I dislike about VT420s is the non-removable power cables. > > Huh? My VT420s have removable power cords... Mine do not. This is interesting. I know there was a variation of the VT320 (yes 320) that had a removable power cord, but they're not terribly common. Apparently there's a removable-cord version of the VT420 as well. Interesting! > The VT420 have both DB25 and MMJ, so I can't see how that could annoy > anyone. (As do all DEC terminals from the VT220 onwards.) Now waitaminute. I am staring at the back of both a VT420 and VT320 right now, on the table opposite my desk. Neither of them have DB25s, only MMJs. The VT420 has what looks like a knock-out that's about the right size for a DB25. Apparently versions with and without DB25s exist as well! That same (rare-to-me) VT320 I mentioned above that has a removable power cord also has a DB25. Out of a few hundred VT320s that have gone through my hands, it's the only one I've ever seen that has either a removable power cord or a DB25. I've never seen a VT420 with either of those, and until now, I haven't even heard of their existence. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Aug 13 19:49:37 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2010 20:49:37 -0400 Subject: Terminals... In-Reply-To: <4C6501DD.4030309@softjar.se> References: <mailman.20.1281656478.1006.cctalk@classiccmp.org> <4C6501DD.4030309@softjar.se> Message-ID: <AANLkTikXTL5SACxgRJBXMNiXAKP9zeFUiUBUXWW_B29P@mail.gmail.com> > Huh? My VT420s have removable power cords... Some do, some do not. > The VT420 have both DB25 and MMJ, Some do, some do not. Of the fifty or so I had recently, I think only one had the DB25 in addition to MMJ. > However, MMJ is actually very nice. Too bad it didn't catch on outside of > DEC. But I try to use it for everything I can at home. MMJ "fixed" a problem that really was no big deal - people confusing RJ45 serial with ethernet. I think the real reason was to lock people into MMJ by doing the old lets-violate-the-standard trick. In my book, DEC is guilty as anyone else here. > No, I can't honestly think of a keyboard I like better than the LK201 and > LK401. Mmmm... > The reliability of the VT420 seems to be pretty decent. I've had many more > VT320 fail on me. But we have to remember that we're talking about 20+ year > old equipment now... Yes, but these were built well towards the end of the monochrome CRT era. -- Will From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Aug 13 19:54:34 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2010 20:54:34 -0400 Subject: Terminals. In-Reply-To: <4C65BE5C.9020500@softjar.se> References: <mailman.3.1281718803.98986.cctalk@classiccmp.org> <4C65BE5C.9020500@softjar.se> Message-ID: <4C65E94A.2050804@neurotica.com> On 8/13/10 5:51 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote: >>>> >> DEC's terminal business was a shell of its former self back when the >>>> >> VT420 was introduced, so it may be true. >>> > > Maybe I'm thinking of the 240 instead? Does the 420 do graphics? >> >> AFAIK the VT420 supports Sixel, but not ReGIS. > > No. The last graphic terminal was the VT340. > The VT420 don't support any graphics, unless you count the user defined > font as graphics. > > Graphics implies either SIXEL, ReGIS or both. Actually, I've never seen > any terminal that supports sixel but not ReGIS, however, several > printers is of that inclination. > > (Although I'm sure someone will now recall some terminal that do sixel > but not ReGIS just because I wrote the above... :-) ). I've never *used* Sixel graphics on a VT420, but the manual clearly states that it supports the Sixel format. (flip flip) Ok, I just went back and re-read it. It "supports Sixel format" as a way to encode user-definable character sets. So you're right I suppose, it ALMOST supports Sixel graphics! ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Aug 13 19:57:07 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2010 20:57:07 -0400 Subject: Terminals... In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikXTL5SACxgRJBXMNiXAKP9zeFUiUBUXWW_B29P@mail.gmail.com> References: <mailman.20.1281656478.1006.cctalk@classiccmp.org> <4C6501DD.4030309@softjar.se> <AANLkTikXTL5SACxgRJBXMNiXAKP9zeFUiUBUXWW_B29P@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4C65E9E3.903@neurotica.com> On 8/13/10 8:49 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >> However, MMJ is actually very nice. Too bad it didn't catch on outside of >> DEC. But I try to use it for everything I can at home. > > MMJ "fixed" a problem that really was no big deal - people confusing > RJ45 serial with ethernet. Huh? I don't see how that can be. The 802.3i standard which defined 10baseT Ethernet on RJ45 connectors came out in 1990, while the first terminal to implement MMJ was the VT320, which predates that by three years. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ploopster at gmail.com Fri Aug 13 22:28:16 2010 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2010 23:28:16 -0400 Subject: Terminals... In-Reply-To: <4C64FE77.5060906@softjar.se> References: <mailman.16.1281618930.1006.cctalk@classiccmp.org> <4C64FE77.5060906@softjar.se> Message-ID: <4C660D50.3050401@gmail.com> Johnny Billquist wrote: > I like the VT5xx series, just as I like all other VT-terminals. However, > I've had problems with power supplies of VT320, and VT340 terminals, and > have had problems with the displays going weak on VT420 terminals. I don't like the VT5xx series (but don't dislike them enough to get rid of mine), because of their changed admin interface vs. the really nice ones of the previous DEC terminals. Peace... Sridhar From geoffr at zipcon.net Fri Aug 13 22:28:45 2010 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoffrey Reed) Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2010 20:28:45 -0700 Subject: EPROM programming (27c160's) In-Reply-To: <0e8301cb3b22$32eada10$9201a8c0@portajara> Message-ID: <C88B5B7D.26B6E%geoffr@zipcon.net> Does anyone know what ever happen to willem? There were all sorts of rumors going around... On 8/13/10 12:43 PM, "Alexandre Souza - Listas" <pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com> wrote: > > http://web.archive.org/web/20080621113020/http://www.willem.org/ > > I think I still have an image of the old site on my desktop, mail me if > you want that > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Tony Duell" <ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk> > To: <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > Sent: Friday, August 13, 2010 3:04 PM > Subject: Re: EPROM programming (27c160's) > > >>> >>> >>> WILLEM!!! The specs and source code are still avaiable on the net :) >> >> Specs anmd source code for _what_? >> >> For EPROM programming, I am not suprised. But for programming _all_ >> manufacturers PALs or GALs or fusilble-link PROMs, I am amazed. Do you >> have the URL to hand? >> >> -tony > > From dave at mitton.com Fri Aug 13 22:46:18 2010 From: dave at mitton.com (Dave Mitton) Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2010 23:46:18 -0400 Subject: Some DEC stuff on Ebay Message-ID: <201008140347.o7E3l1lW057017@billY.EZWIND.NET> FYI: I have listed the following on eBay: Seller name: olebgamer - VT320 Terminal - VT220 Terminal - DECmodem V32 DF-296DA - 2 LK250 Keyboards Dave. From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sat Aug 14 00:16:14 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2010 22:16:14 -0700 Subject: SparcBook Tadpole In-Reply-To: <4C659584.20706@neurotica.com> References: <992230.97947.qm@web52604.mail.re2.yahoo.com>, , , ,,<SNT129-W35920212CCFBCE4CAABE45A3950@phx.gbl>, , , ,,<4C60BEAC.5080609@neurotica.com>, , ,,<SNT129-W61D71C38D99D6E6DB2BFB3A3960@phx.gbl>, , ,,<08fa01cb3967$3f6269a0$9201a8c0@portajara>, , ,,<FF6AB92D97A23A409701CDBF66F03FCD03DC3E6EA0@505fuji>, ,,<SNT129-W11234506A4545FAB51FE17A3960@phx.gbl>, , , <4C634204.5070500@neurotica.com>, , <SNT129-W7A87A12CD210EFCB24952A3970@phx.gbl>, <SNT129-W4128DAC677437D7D2F89CAA3970@phx.gbl>, <4C659584.20706@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <SNT129-W49AA577A71B2FAC59536CCA3990@phx.gbl> > Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2010 14:57:08 -0400 > From: mcguire at neurotica.com > To: > Subject: Re: SparcBook Tadpole > > On 8/12/10 10:08 AM, dwight elvey wrote: > >>> Under SunOS, you can use the program called "eeprom" to dump out most > >>> of the important contents. As far as restoring it, I'm not sure about > >>> that, as I don't know what ROM-based code the very early SPARCbooks use. > >>> > >>> One way to do it might be to read it out using an EPROM programmer. > >>> My Data I/O supports the MK48T02, for example. > >> > >> I think I can read it with my programmer. At least with an adapter to make > >> it think it is a 2716. > >> I tried the "eeprom" and it didn't work :( > >> This must be before someon realized it was a good idea. Acording > >> to the history page I saw, the SparcBook was relatively early in > >> the history of things. > > > > Do you think I could use the program adb with /dev/nvram? > > Could I use it to display and or edit the nvram values? > > If /dev/eeprom or /dev/nvram exists, you may be able to use that. Try > to dump the contents via that interface and see if it actually maps to > the hardware. You can try "od -x /dev/nvram" to do a hex dump. Hi Dave No eeprom command :( I tried the od command. not real interesting. Mostly nul and some ascii strings. Things like /vmunix and RAMDram and stuff. I'd guess it is some of the info extracted from the NVRAM on boot. Dwight From geoffr at zipcon.net Sat Aug 14 01:13:12 2010 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoffrey Reed) Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2010 23:13:12 -0700 Subject: SparcBook Tadpole In-Reply-To: <SNT129-W49AA577A71B2FAC59536CCA3990@phx.gbl> Message-ID: <C88B8208.26BB5%geoffr@zipcon.net> Doesn't it have the OBP, you can also get the contants of the NVRAM or program it using the built in forth On 8/13/10 10:16 PM, "dwight elvey" <dkelvey at hotmail.com> wrote: > > > > >> Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2010 14:57:08 -0400 >> From: mcguire at neurotica.com >> To: >> Subject: Re: SparcBook Tadpole >> >> On 8/12/10 10:08 AM, dwight elvey wrote: >>>>> Under SunOS, you can use the program called "eeprom" to dump out most >>>>> of the important contents. As far as restoring it, I'm not sure about >>>>> that, as I don't know what ROM-based code the very early SPARCbooks use. >>>>> >>>>> One way to do it might be to read it out using an EPROM programmer. >>>>> My Data I/O supports the MK48T02, for example. >>>> >>>> I think I can read it with my programmer. At least with an adapter to make >>>> it think it is a 2716. >>>> I tried the "eeprom" and it didn't work :( >>>> This must be before someon realized it was a good idea. Acording >>>> to the history page I saw, the SparcBook was relatively early in >>>> the history of things. >>> >>> Do you think I could use the program adb with /dev/nvram? >>> Could I use it to display and or edit the nvram values? >> >> If /dev/eeprom or /dev/nvram exists, you may be able to use that. Try >> to dump the contents via that interface and see if it actually maps to >> the hardware. You can try "od -x /dev/nvram" to do a hex dump. > > Hi Dave > No eeprom command :( > I tried the od command. not real interesting. Mostly nul and some ascii > strings. Things like /vmunix and RAMDram and stuff. I'd guess it is > some of the info extracted from the NVRAM on boot. > Dwight > From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Sat Aug 14 02:21:53 2010 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2010 09:21:53 +0200 Subject: SparcBook Tadpole In-Reply-To: <m1Ojz2B-000J4GC@p850ug1> References: <20100813085441.dc1751b1.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <m1Ojz2B-000J4GC@p850ug1> Message-ID: <20100814092153.2b747ca4.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Fri, 13 Aug 2010 19:31:09 +0100 (BST) ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > I asusme it's a norm,al 32768Jz one. Maybe. I don't know. > How are the connections fro the battey and crystal made to the chip itelf? The chip (wide 24 pin DIP) has pins on the short edges. Two between pins 1 and 24 for the XTAL, two between pins 12 and 13 for the battery. These special pins don't come out of the chip. They go up into the top close to the edge. The top is a plasic cap filled with resin. (The chip is turned top-down to pour the resin into the cap.) There is a small gap between the top and the actual chip in the middle of the divice. Only at the edges, where the wires go upward, are covered with resin. So the top is fixed to the chip mostly by the four wires and a bit of resin that coveres the wires at the short edges. That is why I don't like to remove the battery by cutting the top in half. The XTAL part of the top will only be fixed by two wires and a litle bit of resin. To make it machanicaly stable again you would have to glue the dangling XTAL half to the chip again. But why do that extra work and fight with messy glue if you can avoid all of this just by carefull and not so intrusive surgery? -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Sat Aug 14 06:21:13 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2010 08:21:13 -0300 Subject: EPROM programming (27c160's) References: <C88B5B7D.26B6E%geoffr@zipcon.net> Message-ID: <121b01cb3ba4$64db4c80$9201a8c0@portajara> > Does anyone know what ever happen to willem? There were all sorts of > rumors > going around... Mistery :( But I saved the site :) From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sat Aug 14 09:31:08 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2010 07:31:08 -0700 Subject: SparcBook Tadpole In-Reply-To: <C88B8208.26BB5%geoffr@zipcon.net> References: <SNT129-W49AA577A71B2FAC59536CCA3990@phx.gbl>, <C88B8208.26BB5%geoffr@zipcon.net> Message-ID: <SNT129-W3206502FDFEF500564E980A3990@phx.gbl> Hi It seems the the Sparcbook1 and Sparcbook2 don't have openboot. They just used a boot ROM like a pc :{ Dwight > From: geoffr at zipcon.net > > Doesn't it have the OBP, you can also get the contants of the NVRAM or > program it using the built in forth > ---snip--- From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Sat Aug 14 12:52:28 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2010 18:52:28 +0100 Subject: EPROM programming (27c160's) In-Reply-To: <m1OjdPR-000J4CC@p850ug1> References: <m1OjdPR-000J4CC@p850ug1> Message-ID: <4C66D7DC.1070309@philpem.me.uk> On 12/08/10 20:25, Tony Duell wrote: >> I'm still waiting for an EPROM programmer with Linux software available. > > Make one!. The programming specs for most EPROMs are available, I think... Indeed. "Universal 32-pin programmer" is on my 'potential projects' list. 32 MOSFET pin drivers, a couple of separate power supplies with variable current limit, and an FPGA to do the heavy lifting (timing, I/O expander, that sort of thing). > Are enough of the programming algorithms documented to make this > possible? The GAL programming algorithms have been figured out. C't and Elektor published them a few years ago, and Manfred Winterhoff designed the GALBlast around them. The hardware is fine, but the software is horrendous -- all stuffed into one C file, makes extensive use of 16-bit Windows APIs, and is about as portable as a skyscraper... > For the fusible-link PROMs (and PALs), every manufactuer seemed > to do it their own way. Some would release the programming specifications > (they were even sometimes in the data sheets), others wouldn't. I'm only really interested in the Signetics 82S series, and maybe some of the MMI parts (assuming I can find programming specs). Anything else would be a "nice to have". > Ditto for GALs (although, actually, geting any programmign specification > for those was 'interestings') Indeed. Lattice won't give out any info on them, period. I asked a few years ago, and I got exactly five words in response: "We don't provide that information." MaWin's documentation and the Elektor article, combined with the GALBlast sources ("Use The Source, Luke!") provide more than enough info to do a decent GAL programmer. The one thing that is as finicky as hell on the GALBlast is the damn Vcc switch. Stupid thing has an insane amount of voltage drop, if I ever use the thing again (translation: if I can find it) I'll be swapping the NPN driver for a MOSFET (possibly with a BJT gate-driver). -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Sat Aug 14 13:08:10 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2010 15:08:10 -0300 Subject: EPROM programming (27c160's) References: <m1OjdPR-000J4CC@p850ug1> <4C66D7DC.1070309@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <138001cb3bde$225c8ba0$9201a8c0@portajara> > Indeed. "Universal 32-pin programmer" is on my 'potential projects' list. > 32 MOSFET pin drivers, a couple of separate power supplies with variable > current limit, and an FPGA to do the heavy lifting (timing, I/O expander, > that sort of thing). Why not take a look on the reverse engineering of the TOP 2005 and 2008 programmers? It is avaiable on the net! > The GAL programming algorithms have been figured out. C't and Elektor > published them a few years ago, and Manfred Winterhoff designed the > GALBlast around them. The hardware is fine, but the software is > horrendous -- all stuffed into one C file, makes extensive use of 16-bit > Windows APIs, and is about as portable as a skyscraper... You can always reverse engineer....You have an excellent logical analyser :) > The one thing that is as finicky as hell on the GALBlast is the damn Vcc > switch. Stupid thing has an insane amount of voltage drop, if I ever use > the thing again (translation: if I can find it) I'll be swapping the NPN > driver for a MOSFET (possibly with a BJT gate-driver). **affordable** MOSFETS are a novelty, was it avaiable at project time? From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Aug 14 14:44:11 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2010 20:44:11 +0100 (BST) Subject: Pronouncing acronyms (was Re: DEC acronyms) In-Reply-To: <cdaNct6Y.1281727444.1848930.jotter@howe.textdrive.com> from "Jonas Otter" at Aug 13, 10 07:24:04 pm Message-ID: <m1OkMeQ-000J3uC@p850ug1> > > Sorry about being so unclear, I thought you might be a member of the > group in question. I read vey few Yahoo groups... > > Actually, it is quite the opposite, he keeps saying that you shouldn't > take a lens apart without having sophisticated equipment to collimate > the lens when putting it together again, as well as considerable > experience using the equipment, unless you want to have a clean but > expensive paperweight. He thinks that if you just put it back together > again the optical performance will be terrible. I find that hard to believe. I asusme he's suggesting that the radial position of each elementis very critical, and has to be idividually set up when assembly the lens (the axial postion is set by accurately made spacers in any lense I've had apart). My experience is that the elements do self-align when you fit he clamping rings, and very few lenses have any method of adjustign that positon. Just about the only lens I cna think of that does have such an adjustment is the infamous DOmiplan (and tweking the 3 locating screws for the rear lens cell cna turn a terrile lens into a merely awful one :-)) > > I wouldn't know, I haven't tried. I'm not sure I believe that > companies like Minolta who made thousands of lenses wouldn't have > worked out a way to make the optical elements self-aligning or > something. It sounds like a lot of expense for a manufacturing process I would agree. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Aug 14 14:47:16 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2010 20:47:16 +0100 (BST) Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 84, Issue 16 In-Reply-To: <MFbkk3qs.1281728126.6972600.jotter@howe.textdrive.com> from "Jonas Otter" at Aug 13, 10 07:35:26 pm Message-ID: <m1OkMhP-000J3xC@p850ug1> > > Use alkaline or silver oxide. Any small error in exposure caused by the > difference in voltage is compensated for by the exposure latitude of the > film. I had my OM-1 modified with the Schottky diode setup, works That depends o nthe film. It would be find for negative film (B&W or colour), but I think it would be too far out for colour slides. You could probbly compensate by mis-settign the film speed control though. > perfectly. I believe it would probably work just as well without the > diode. > > And as far as the diode goes, I have heard one person claim that it is > entirely pointless because the voltage drop over the diode varies so > much with the ambient temperature that the compensating effect is > essentially nullified. I will have to measure it, but I didn't think the voltage drop varied that much over the normal temperature range. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Aug 14 15:19:45 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2010 21:19:45 +0100 (BST) Subject: Terminals... In-Reply-To: <4C65E78B.4090102@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Aug 13, 10 08:47:07 pm Message-ID: <m1OkNCp-000J48C@p850ug1> > > On 8/13/10 4:27 AM, Johnny Billquist wrote: > >> Not at all, I just wanted to know what he didn't like about them. The > >> only thing I dislike about VT420s is the non-removable power cables. > > > > Huh? My VT420s have removable power cords... > > Mine do not. This is interesting. I know there was a variation of Odd.. Every VT1xx, 2xx and 3xx terminal I have ever seen has had a normal IEC 'kettle plug' for the mains imput, and has a removable cable. I wonder how different the 2 versions are. In particular are the case mouldings the same. It's possible that the case is designed to take a IEC plug, and that the integral-cable versions has a strain-releif that fits the same cutouts in the case (Seen that on other equipment...) I am wondiering if it might be possible to convert one. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Aug 14 15:26:18 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2010 21:26:18 +0100 (BST) Subject: SparcBook Tadpole In-Reply-To: <20100814092153.2b747ca4.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> from "Jochen Kunz" at Aug 14, 10 09:21:53 am Message-ID: <m1OkNJC-000J49C@p850ug1> > > On Fri, 13 Aug 2010 19:31:09 +0100 (BST) > ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > > > I asusme it's a norm,al 32768Jz one. > Maybe. I don't know. I would be suporised if it wasn't, but then I am often suprised > > > How are the connections fro the battey and crystal made to the chip itelf? > The chip (wide 24 pin DIP) has pins on the short edges. Two between > pins 1 and 24 for the XTAL, two between pins 12 and 13 for the battery. > These special pins don't come out of the chip. They go up into the top > close to the edge. The top is a plasic cap filled with resin. (The chip OK, got it.. > is turned top-down to pour the resin into the cap.) There is a small > gap between the top and the actual chip in the middle of the divice. > Only at the edges, where the wires go upward, are covered with resin. > So the top is fixed to the chip mostly by the four wires and a bit of > resin that coveres the wires at the short edges. > > That is why I don't like to remove the battery by cutting the top in > half. The XTAL part of the top will only be fixed by two wires and a > litle bit of resin. To make it machanicaly stable again you would have > to glue the dangling XTAL half to the chip again. But why do that extra Right. Doesn't sound impossible ot make this stronger, though. > work and fight with messy glue if you can avoid all of this just by > carefull and not so intrusive surgery? I am always worried about leaving dead battereis in things. I still believe leakage could be a problem, and I'd rather I didn't get electrolyte all over the PCB, for example. -tony From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Sat Aug 14 16:04:11 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2010 22:04:11 +0100 Subject: EPROM programming (27c160's) In-Reply-To: <138001cb3bde$225c8ba0$9201a8c0@portajara> References: <m1OjdPR-000J4CC@p850ug1> <4C66D7DC.1070309@philpem.me.uk> <138001cb3bde$225c8ba0$9201a8c0@portajara> Message-ID: <4C6704CB.1060400@philpem.me.uk> On 14/08/10 19:08, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >> Indeed. "Universal 32-pin programmer" is on my 'potential projects' >> list. 32 MOSFET pin drivers, a couple of separate power supplies with >> variable current limit, and an FPGA to do the heavy lifting (timing, >> I/O expander, that sort of thing). > > Why not take a look on the reverse engineering of the TOP 2005 and 2008 > programmers? It is avaiable on the net! Got a link? Google isn't revealing anything particularly relevant for the TOP2008. I've seen the hack for the TOP2005 on Openschemes, but it doesn't look like the hardware is especially versatile... >> The GAL programming algorithms have been figured out. C't and Elektor >> published them a few years ago, and Manfred Winterhoff designed the >> GALBlast around them. The hardware is fine, but the software is >> horrendous -- all stuffed into one C file, makes extensive use of >> 16-bit Windows APIs, and is about as portable as a skyscraper... > > You can always reverse engineer....You have an excellent logical > analyser :) Reverse engineering wouldn't be required. Tidying up MaWin's schematic would be a good starting point, but the code is reasonably easy to figure out. Porting the basic algorithms to Linux wouldn't be hard, but getting the timing right would be. > **affordable** MOSFETS are a novelty, was it avaiable at project time? The 2N7000 would have worked fine, and those are ten-a-penny these days. Essentially zero voltage drop (vs. the 1.4V of a BJT). -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Sat Aug 14 16:12:30 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2010 18:12:30 -0300 Subject: EPROM programming (27c160's) References: <m1OjdPR-000J4CC@p850ug1> <4C66D7DC.1070309@philpem.me.uk><138001cb3bde$225c8ba0$9201a8c0@portajara> <4C6704CB.1060400@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <010001cb3bf5$7a27dc10$0600000a@portajara> > Got a link? Google isn't revealing anything particularly relevant for the > TOP2008. I've seen the hack for the TOP2005 on Openschemes, but it doesn't > look like the hardware is especially versatile... What else do you need? The commands outlined in openschemes seems to be enough for creating another program, maybe I'm wrong :) > Reverse engineering wouldn't be required. Tidying up MaWin's schematic > would be a good starting point, but the code is reasonably easy to figure > out. Porting the basic algorithms to Linux wouldn't be hard, but getting > the timing right would be. That's why these timings must be done on board From tpeters at mixcom.com Sat Aug 14 16:33:15 2010 From: tpeters at mixcom.com (Tom Peters) Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2010 16:33:15 -0500 Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 84, Issue 16 In-Reply-To: <MFbkk3qs.1281728126.6972600.jotter@howe.textdrive.com> References: <mailman.22.1281677425.1006.cctech@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20100814163231.0b737368@localhost> At 07:35 PM 8/13/2010 +0000, you wrote: >Use alkaline or silver oxide. Any small error in exposure caused by the Please change the subject line when you reply to a digest message. Thanks. ----- 11. [Computing] A language that doesn't affect the way you think about programming is not worth knowing. --... ...-- -.. . -. ----. --.- --.- -... tpeters at nospam.mixcom.com (remove "nospam") N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) WEB: http://www.mixcom.com/tpeters 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W, Elevation 815', Grid Square EN53wc WAN/LAN/Telcom Analyst, Tech Writer, MCP, CCNA, Registered Linux User 385531 From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Sat Aug 14 18:20:30 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2010 00:20:30 +0100 Subject: EPROM programming (27c160's) In-Reply-To: <010001cb3bf5$7a27dc10$0600000a@portajara> References: <m1OjdPR-000J4CC@p850ug1> <4C66D7DC.1070309@philpem.me.uk><138001cb3bde$225c8ba0$9201a8c0@portajara> <4C6704CB.1060400@philpem.me.uk> <010001cb3bf5$7a27dc10$0600000a@portajara> Message-ID: <4C6724BE.8010901@philpem.me.uk> On 14/08/10 22:12, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > What else do you need? The commands outlined in openschemes seems to be > enough for creating another program, maybe I'm wrong :) The point I was trying to make is that you said the TOP2008 had been reverse engineered similarly; that page only has info on the TOP2005. And quite frankly I don't need another badly-engineered Chinese brick on my desk. >> Reverse engineering wouldn't be required. Tidying up MaWin's schematic >> would be a good starting point, but the code is reasonably easy to >> figure out. Porting the basic algorithms to Linux wouldn't be hard, >> but getting the timing right would be. > > That's why these timings must be done on board ... which brings us neatly back to "I need a GAL programmer that isn't dependent on the host system running a single-tasking OS". Relying on any PC to generate accurate timings is stupid unless you turn off interrupts for a bit. Hope you're not expecting the clock to be accurate when you've finished... and even then the timing might not be that good (the DMA controller might decide to steal a few bus cycles here and there). If I was going to do it, I'd bolt a J-series PIC18F chip onto an FPGA, then wire the FPGA up to a couple of gate driver boards. Hmm, sounds suspiciously like the DiscFerret hardware, doesn't it? :) -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From bqt at softjar.se Sat Aug 14 18:20:23 2010 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2010 01:20:23 +0200 Subject: Terminals... In-Reply-To: <mailman.3.1281805203.14674.cctalk@classiccmp.org> References: <mailman.3.1281805203.14674.cctalk@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <4C6724B7.3090908@softjar.se> Dave McGuire <mcguire at neurotica.com> wrote: > On 8/13/10 4:27 AM, Johnny Billquist wrote: >>> >> Not at all, I just wanted to know what he didn't like about them. The >>> >> only thing I dislike about VT420s is the non-removable power cables. >> > >> > Huh? My VT420s have removable power cords... > > Mine do not. This is interesting. I know there was a variation of > the VT320 (yes 320) that had a removable power cord, but they're not > terribly common. Apparently there's a removable-cord version of the > VT420 as well. Interesting! Hmm. Unfortunately I don't have any VT320 around anymore, since all of them have broken down (flybacks mostly). But I've had atleast five of them over time, and all have had removable cords. I wonder if this might be more of a european thing. Since different countries in Europe use different power plugs, it makes sense to have the power cord detachable. There is more or less a standard format plug that goes into any kind of computer equipment, but the wall plug differs between countries. So you usually don't use a fixed power cord, but instead the standard equipment power connector on your equipment, and then ship whatever power cord is used in that country. >> > The VT420 have both DB25 and MMJ, so I can't see how that could annoy >> > anyone. (As do all DEC terminals from the VT220 onwards.) > > Now waitaminute. I am staring at the back of both a VT420 and VT320 > right now, on the table opposite my desk. Neither of them have DB25s, > only MMJs. The VT420 has what looks like a knock-out that's about the > right size for a DB25. > > Apparently versions with and without DB25s exist as well! Apparently so. :-) > That same (rare-to-me) VT320 I mentioned above that has a removable > power cord also has a DB25. Out of a few hundred VT320s that have gone > through my hands, it's the only one I've ever seen that has either a > removable power cord or a DB25. I've never seen a VT420 with either of > those, and until now, I haven't even heard of their existence. Well, I have four VT420 at home right now, and they all have both a DB25 and detachable power cord. Since I was feeling creative tonight, I even took pictures of the back side of all terminals I have at home. So here is a link to where you can see the backside of: VT-330, VT-420, VT-510, VT-520 and VT-525. All of them have DB25 and all of them have detachable power cords. http://www.update.uu.se/~bqt/vt (Argh, I just realized I missed the VT-240 I have, but oh well...) William Donzelli <wdonzelli at gmail.com> wrote: >> > Huh? My VT420s have removable power cords... > > Some do, some do not. Yup. I just learned. All I've ever seen have been with detachable cords. But as I wrote above, I bet this is a european thing. >> > The VT420 have both DB25 and MMJ, > > Some do, some do not. Of the fifty or so I had recently, I think only > one had the DB25 in addition to MMJ. All mine do, and I have four right here. >> > However, MMJ is actually very nice. Too bad it didn't catch on outside of >> > DEC. But I try to use it for everything I can at home. > > MMJ "fixed" a problem that really was no big deal - people confusing > RJ45 serial with ethernet. I think the real reason was to lock people > into MMJ by doing the old lets-violate-the-standard trick. In my book, > DEC is guilty as anyone else here. Huh? That is totally backwards in more than one way. Yes, MMJ "fixed" one thing. It has nothing to do with ethernet, but all to do with people (and companies) who couldn't figure out how to wire a DB25. Almost all companies got the gender wrong on their equipment. In addition to that, many couldn't figure out what a DTE and DCE was. Now, that is called standard violation. Causing people to have cables they think they can connect, but which don't work. DEC is one of the two companies that did get it right (the other one being HP). To this day, it totally amaze me how so many companies couldn't get this right. And from that perspective it don't surprise me when people around here don't get it either (there was a long thread not long ago, which I declined to even participate in). RS-232 is so simple that it's hard to get wrong. There is only two things you can mess up with. Connector gender, and DTE vs DCE. How can people find that so difficult??? And if people and companies had actually stayed with the standard, you wouldn't even had been able to mix those to parameters up. A DTE *should* have a *male* DB25. A DCE *should* have a female DB25. A male-male cable should be crossed, a female-female cable should be crossed, a male-female cable should be straight. There is nothing more to it. All terminals and computers are DTEs. Modems are DCEs. But it you absolutely wanted to, feel free to wire a modem up as a DTE. It will work just fine, just as long as you fit the right DB25 to it, and wire it up accordingly. But no. Companies just loved putting female DB25 on their terminals, and wire them up as DTEs. Or put male DB25 on their computers, and wire them up as DCEs. *Idiots* That is called violating the standards. And to make matters ridiculously worse, we have IBM. Who simply put just raped the RS-232 standard by using a DE9, moving one or two pins in a totally non-logical way, changing the gender, *and* sortof wiring it as a DCE. They should be taken out to the back and shot. IBM have caused more damage to the computer world than all other companies put together. Here is a simple tip for the next time you wire a RS-232 up. Measure pin 2 and 3 on the equipment. One should at around -12V, while the other is around 0. Do this on both sides. Then wire the -12V from one side to the 0V on the other for both 2 and 3. And run pin 7 straight through. And that's it. You now have a correct RS-232 cable, albeit just the data leads. You can wire the rest up if it amuse you. The most important ones are DCD, DTR, DSR, RTS, CTS. For a DTE-DTE, you should wire CTS to RTS and DCD+DSR to DTR. Very simple. And if I remember right, we're talking about pines 4,5,6,8 and 20. But I'd usually check the RS-232 DB25 connector layout before I try to wire a full cable up. Most of the time I'm happy with just 2,3 and 7 anyway, since I don't do hardware flow control (another RS-232 standards violation, by the way, and which DEC did not do). But having the DSR signal is useful to detect if someone gets disconnected. What DEC did with MMJ was in no way violating any standard. Noone in his right mind would think that an MMJ was an RS-232. So what standard did they violate (if I may ask?). Hmm, I seem to remember that the signalling in the MMJ is even called DEC-423, but I might be remembering wrong. It is pretty much compatible with RS-423 anyway (might be equivalent), and you can usually get away with connecting that directly with RS-232, but they are not really the same thing. (Hmm, looking at RS-423, it would appear that DEC-423 is a superset, since DEC-423 don't actually use a common ground for everything, but use one ground for all transmitted signals, and one ground for all received signals). So, the signalling in the MMJ connector is only claimed to be communicating using DEC-423. How would that violate any standard? If DEC had said that it was an RS-232 port, then they would have violated the RS-232 standard. (I guess I'm confused at your definition of violating a standard.) What MMJ solved was that they removed the gender issues, and they simplified the DTE/DCE issues. Your cable is either straight or crossed (either flat or turned 180? looking from one end to the other). They also simplified the assembly of the cables compared to RS-232. The fact that MMJ Ethernet vs. RS-232 on a RJ45? Give me a break. None of that even existed when the MMJ came about. And the idea of putting RS-252 on an RJ45 is something I'd call violating a standard, if anything. But it comes with the one-connector-for-everything that some people are so fond of. So you also have telephony on RJ45, to make life really interesting... And all running through one patch panel. >> > The reliability of the VT420 seems to be pretty decent. I've had many more >> > VT320 fail on me. But we have to remember that we're talking about 20+ year >> > old equipment now... > > Yes, but these were built well towards the end of the monochrome CRT era. I don't know. When was the end of the monochrome CRT era? Has it ended yet? Dave McGuire <mcguire at neurotica.com> wrote: > On 8/13/10 5:51 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote: >>> >> AFAIK the VT420 supports Sixel, but not ReGIS. >> > >> > No. The last graphic terminal was the VT340. >> > The VT420 don't support any graphics, unless you count the user defined >> > font as graphics. >> > >> > Graphics implies either SIXEL, ReGIS or both. Actually, I've never seen >> > any terminal that supports sixel but not ReGIS, however, several >> > printers is of that inclination. >> > >> > (Although I'm sure someone will now recall some terminal that do sixel >> > but not ReGIS just because I wrote the above... :-) ). > > I've never *used* Sixel graphics on a VT420, but the manual clearly > states that it supports the Sixel format. > > (flip flip) > > Ok, I just went back and re-read it. It "supports Sixel format" as a > way to encode user-definable character sets. So you're right I suppose, > it ALMOST supports Sixel graphics! ;) I said "unless you count the used defined font". :-) All that said, I know some crazy person wrote a GIF viewer for the VT320, using the user defined font to pull it off. Dave McGuire <mcguire at neurotica.com> wrote: On 8/13/10 8:49 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >>> >> However, MMJ is actually very nice. Too bad it didn't catch on outside of >>> >> DEC. But I try to use it for everything I can at home. >> > >> > MMJ "fixed" a problem that really was no big deal - people confusing >> > RJ45 serial with ethernet. > > Huh? I don't see how that can be. The 802.3i standard which defined > 10baseT Ethernet on RJ45 connectors came out in 1990, while the first > terminal to implement MMJ was the VT320, which predates that by three years. Ouch. You're right. For some reason I was thinking that the VT220 also had MMJ, but it didn't. That only came with the VT320... But I can't see the relevance of MMJ vs. RJ45 either, for various reasons mentioned above. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sat Aug 14 19:14:00 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2010 20:14:00 -0400 Subject: Terminals... In-Reply-To: <4C6724B7.3090908@softjar.se> References: <mailman.3.1281805203.14674.cctalk@classiccmp.org> <4C6724B7.3090908@softjar.se> Message-ID: <AANLkTi=V57iG5hLRtw7h3d+R9AyS_t5EXZ8XmxF7=So1@mail.gmail.com> > Almost all companies got the gender wrong on their equipment. For "almost all companies" to get the gender wrong, somehow we managed. Mostly, it was just making or ordering cable Y instead of cable X. > And to make matters ridiculously worse, we have IBM. Who simply put just > raped the RS-232 standard by using a DE9, moving one or two pins in a > totally non-logical way, changing the gender, *and* sortof wiring it as a > DCE. DG also used non standard DEs I think. Moving serial to the DE was in the cards, simply because the DB was underutilized and took up too much real estate. IBM certainly played the standard violation game as well, but somehow the DE9 serial issue is no big deal. Order or make cable Z, and the problem is solved. > What DEC did with MMJ was in no way violating any standard. > right mind would think that an MMJ was an RS-232. So what standard did they > violate (if I may ask?). A new connector that requires new tooling. Every halfway decently sized DP shop probably had a nice selection of tools and supplies for D shell and RJ connectors. Male or female - no problem to make whatever. Or call up the cable supplier or Inmac, and let do the work. But not with MMJ, everyone has to get that special die... > Ethernet vs. RS-232 on a RJ45? Give me a break. None of that even existed > when the MMJ came about. OK, yes, I suppose it is a bit early, so I will take that back (but, come on, lighten up a bit. Did I touch a nerve?). I was told that DEC's reason is that too many people were confusing things that use RJ connectors. However, it was pretty clear at the time that RJs were going to be a hit. Serial went there, and even token ring. > I don't know. When was the end of the monochrome CRT era? Has it ended yet? Yes, it has ended. Monochome CRTs have not been made for quite a few years now. "New" production terminals are using refurbished tubes. Also, I bet the number of new dumb terminals being ordered these days is tiny, and it would not surprise me if what is being sold today as new is just old stock from the warehouses. I is a whole lot cheaper to store a few thousand terminals in a warehouse than it is to keep a very slow production line open, with the bonus that unsold stock can be written off and scrapped. -- Will From RichA at vulcan.com Sat Aug 14 19:42:40 2010 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2010 17:42:40 -0700 Subject: [gopher] OT: Anyone interested in text editor programming? (fwd) In-Reply-To: <201008131422.o7DEM4qL017766@floodgap.com> References: <201008131422.o7DEM4qL017766@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <CC28F43ED4708D489ABCF68D06D7F556040A5CC9E1@505DENALI.corp.vnw.com> > Video TECO is an attempt to re-create this great old editor in a > version that any Tom, Dick, or Harry would understand. It was written > by Paul Cantrell ten years ago; the files had been lost, until I > discovered a snapshot of the source hiding in my e-mail inbox. I've > even found a patch to make it run on Linux. So I've re-released it > under the Sleepycat Licence, and I am currently enlisting developers > to help me add new features and squash bugs. Who is this fellow, and what makes him think that TECO, visual or otherwise, has ever been lost???? *I* haven't lost it, and I am the maintainer of MIT TECO and EMACS, and have been since I posted a Y2K fix to comp.emacs and gnu.emacs.bugs (or whatever the newsgroup was called at the time). RMS stated that he had no idea that anyone was maintaining it, and that if I wanted to take it on, I should go for it. As I was working for a company that built PDP-10 clone systems at the time, I did so quite happily. Video TECO has never been lost. It was written by PDP-10 engineers at DEC in the 1970s, and it still present on the Tops-10 distribution tapes (as images at http://pdp-10.trailing-edge.com/). 10 years ago is not all that long in the history of TECO, and I have no idea who Mr. Cantrell might be, but I misdoubt he would have a great deal to say about the expropriation of his work by this fellow without, as far as I can tell, so much as a "By your leave". $DEITY, I hate children who think that because something is unknown to them it must be unknown to all the world! Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.PDPplanet.org/ http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Aug 14 20:26:45 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2010 21:26:45 -0400 Subject: Terminals... In-Reply-To: <AANLkTi=V57iG5hLRtw7h3d+R9AyS_t5EXZ8XmxF7=So1@mail.gmail.com> References: <mailman.3.1281805203.14674.cctalk@classiccmp.org> <4C6724B7.3090908@softjar.se> <AANLkTi=V57iG5hLRtw7h3d+R9AyS_t5EXZ8XmxF7=So1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4C674255.2080904@neurotica.com> On 8/14/10 8:14 PM, William Donzelli wrote: > IBM certainly played the standard violation game as well, but somehow > the DE9 serial issue is no big deal. Order or make cable Z, and the > problem is solved. DE-9 serial ports!! *spit* > OK, yes, I suppose it is a bit early, so I will take that back (but, > come on, lighten up a bit. Did I touch a nerve?). I was told that > DEC's reason is that too many people were confusing things that use RJ > connectors. However, it was pretty clear at the time that RJs were > going to be a hit. Serial went there, and even token ring. Modular connectors date back to early 1973. They were adopted in the telephony world pretty quickly, but there wasn't that much of an overlap between that world and the world of computing. (nowhere near as much as in later years, I mean) AT&T StarLAN predates 10baseT Ethernet, and I seem to recall it using modular connectors as well, but I don't know when it came into being. I only started seeing mention of it in the mid-1980s. Perhaps that could've been a source of the confusion DEC was trying to address with MMJ. That said, though, while the sequence of events largely precludes that motivation stemming from confusion involving 10baseT in particular, it was a good thing to do. Perhaps they should've done it in a different way, using a different standard connector if they really didn't want DB-25s (which they SHOULD have used), but look at all the trouble we're still having on TODAY between 10/100/1000baseT Ethernet and serial ports on networking equipment, and even other types of connections. Just a few months ago I unplugged a T1 (RJ48X, the same connector as an RJ45) from the serial CONSOLE port on a Cisco and plugged it back into its T1 WIC card. The "tech" had gotten them mixed up. So yes, all over the industry we have connector confusion problems primarily because people refuse to pay attention to what they're doing. I'd dearly love to see 120V AC power delivered on 1/8" headphone jacks for a few years...just to clean up the gene pool a bit. > Yes, it has ended. Monochome CRTs have not been made for quite a few > years now. "New" production terminals are using refurbished tubes. > Also, I bet the number of new dumb terminals being ordered these days > is tiny, and it would not surprise me if what is being sold today as > new is just old stock from the warehouses. I is a whole lot cheaper to > store a few thousand terminals in a warehouse than it is to keep a > very slow production line open, with the bonus that unsold stock can > be written off and scrapped. I have a mono VGA CRT here that was purchased new less than a year ago. I suppose its CRT could've been a refurb. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Sat Aug 14 20:43:39 2010 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2010 18:43:39 -0700 Subject: Static RAM chip source (& S-100 related questions...) Message-ID: <4C67464B.8090303@mail.msu.edu> Hi all -- I finally have procured enough hardware to get my IMSAI 8080 running again, albeit in a very barebones state. I currently have only 16K of working (and compatible) memory and am trying to get an additional 32K static RAM board working again (It's an IMS board, see: http://www.s100computers.com/Hardware%20Folder/IMS/32K%20Static%20RAM/32K%20Static%20RAM.htm) Mine is missing a number of memory chips; these are 5257 4Kx1 (I believe from my research the TMS4044 is equivalent). Can anyone suggest a reputable place to pick up half a dozen or so of these for a reasonable price? There are a few on ebay for $6 each, which seems a little steep (but perhaps my expectations are out of order...) I'm also looking for a manual for a PSS RAM65. I believe this is a 16K DRAM board. It's the only S-100 board in my collection that I haven't managed to find a manual or schematic for... Once I get the memory situation resolved I hope to get a floppy disk system working. I currently have a Tarbell 1011D in unknown condition -- is this a decent card to work with (and can it be made to work with 5.25" drives?), or would I be better off finding something else? Thanks as always, Josh From legalize at xmission.com Sat Aug 14 20:48:20 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2010 19:48:20 -0600 Subject: Terminals... In-Reply-To: Your message of Sun, 15 Aug 2010 01:20:23 +0200. <4C6724B7.3090908@softjar.se> Message-ID: <E1OkSKi-0005BT-NE@shell.xmission.com> In article <4C6724B7.3090908 at softjar.se>, Johnny Billquist <bqt at softjar.se> writes: > Almost all companies got the gender wrong on their equipment. That is telling you something about the standard. If everyone's getting it wrong, then the standard has a bug. Standards should make it easy for people to do the right thing. If a standard comes out and everyone consistently gets it wrong, then the standard is at fault, not the people. Standards should acknowledge human nature, not pretend that humans are vulcans. > [...] many couldn't figure out what a DTE and DCE was. More testimony to the standard being buggy. It doesn't help that these two different roles differ in their acronym by only a single letter that sounds almost identical when pronounced out. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com/the-direct3d-graphics-pipeline/> Legalize Adulthood! <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com> From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Sat Aug 14 20:57:20 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2010 22:57:20 -0300 Subject: Terminals... References: <mailman.3.1281805203.14674.cctalk@classiccmp.org> <4C6724B7.3090908@softjar.se><AANLkTi=V57iG5hLRtw7h3d+R9AyS_t5EXZ8XmxF7=So1@mail.gmail.com> <4C674255.2080904@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <029501cb3c1e$7c03cb60$0600000a@portajara> > I'd dearly love to see 120V AC power delivered on 1/8" headphone jacks > for a few years...just to clean up the gene pool a bit. Oh Dave, you're a naughty boy :oD From useddec at gmail.com Sat Aug 14 21:23:39 2010 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2010 21:23:39 -0500 Subject: Terminals... In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikXTL5SACxgRJBXMNiXAKP9zeFUiUBUXWW_B29P@mail.gmail.com> References: <mailman.20.1281656478.1006.cctalk@classiccmp.org> <4C6501DD.4030309@softjar.se> <AANLkTikXTL5SACxgRJBXMNiXAKP9zeFUiUBUXWW_B29P@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <AANLkTimPQGnCTT8YTDNoUuiSERsqubPsuAvdQhoGPfDX@mail.gmail.com> I think the US version has the attached power cord, and the international one has an attached power cord. Paul On Fri, Aug 13, 2010 at 7:49 PM, William Donzelli <wdonzelli at gmail.com>wrote: > > Huh? My VT420s have removable power cords... > > Some do, some do not. > > > The VT420 have both DB25 and MMJ, > > Some do, some do not. Of the fifty or so I had recently, I think only > one had the DB25 in addition to MMJ. > > > However, MMJ is actually very nice. Too bad it didn't catch on outside of > > DEC. But I try to use it for everything I can at home. > > MMJ "fixed" a problem that really was no big deal - people confusing > RJ45 serial with ethernet. I think the real reason was to lock people > into MMJ by doing the old lets-violate-the-standard trick. In my book, > DEC is guilty as anyone else here. > > > No, I can't honestly think of a keyboard I like better than the LK201 and > > LK401. > > Mmmm... > > > The reliability of the VT420 seems to be pretty decent. I've had many > more > > VT320 fail on me. But we have to remember that we're talking about 20+ > year > > old equipment now... > > Yes, but these were built well towards the end of the monochrome CRT era. > > -- > Will > From schoedel at kw.igs.net Sat Aug 14 21:54:51 2010 From: schoedel at kw.igs.net (Kevin Schoedel) Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2010 22:54:51 -0400 Subject: Useful cables (was Re: Terminals...) In-Reply-To: <4C674255.2080904@neurotica.com> References: <mailman.3.1281805203.14674.cctalk@classiccmp.org> <4C6724B7.3090908@softjar.se> <AANLkTi=V57iG5hLRtw7h3d+R9AyS_t5EXZ8XmxF7=So1@mail.gmail.com> <4C674255.2080904@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <p0621020ac88d06501c58@[192.168.0.16]> At 9:26 pm -0400 2010/08/14, Dave McGuire wrote: > I'd dearly love to see 120V AC power delivered on 1/8" headphone jacks >for a few years...just to clean up the gene pool a bit. The necessary adapters exist, and are readily available from any photo shop that carries pro lighting gear. Examples: http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/682580-REG/Impact_10032330_Sync_Cord_Mini.html http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/613977-REG/Impact_9031510_Mini_3_5_mm_to.html -- Kevin Schoedel <schoedel at kw.igs.net> VA3TCS From cclist at sydex.com Sat Aug 14 22:18:01 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2010 20:18:01 -0700 Subject: Static RAM chip source (& S-100 related questions...) In-Reply-To: <4C67464B.8090303@mail.msu.edu> References: <4C67464B.8090303@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <4C66F9F9.31905.251BE4A@cclist.sydex.com> On 14 Aug 2010 at 18:43, Josh Dersch wrote: > Mine is missing a number of memory chips; these are 5257 4Kx1 (I > believe from my research the TMS4044 is equivalent). Can anyone > suggest a reputable place to pick up half a dozen or so of these for a > reasonable price? There are a few on ebay for $6 each, which seems a > little steep (but perhaps my expectations are out of order...) I believe that the Intel 2147 is a pin-compatible alternative. Unicorn has these for $3 and change the each. Perhaps eBay has them cheaper... --Chuck From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sat Aug 14 22:56:46 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2010 20:56:46 -0700 Subject: Static RAM chip source (& S-100 related questions...) In-Reply-To: <4C66F9F9.31905.251BE4A@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4C67464B.8090303@mail.msu.edu>, <4C66F9F9.31905.251BE4A@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <SNT129-W24E6F835198DD347B58BFAA39A0@phx.gbl> > From: cclist at sydex.com > > On 14 Aug 2010 at 18:43, Josh Dersch wrote: > > > > Mine is missing a number of memory chips; these are 5257 4Kx1 (I > > believe from my research the TMS4044 is equivalent). Can anyone > > suggest a reputable place to pick up half a dozen or so of these for a > > reasonable price? There are a few on ebay for $6 each, which seems a > > little steep (but perhaps my expectations are out of order...) > > I believe that the Intel 2147 is a pin-compatible alternative. > Unicorn has these for $3 and change the each. Perhaps eBay has them > cheaper... > > --Chuck > The 2147s draw a lot more power than the 4044s Dwight From cclist at sydex.com Sat Aug 14 23:32:30 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2010 21:32:30 -0700 Subject: Static RAM chip source (& S-100 related questions...) In-Reply-To: <SNT129-W24E6F835198DD347B58BFAA39A0@phx.gbl> References: <4C67464B.8090303@mail.msu.edu>, <4C66F9F9.31905.251BE4A@cclist.sydex.com>, <SNT129-W24E6F835198DD347B58BFAA39A0@phx.gbl> Message-ID: <4C670B6E.8790.295EE0A@cclist.sydex.com> On 14 Aug 2010 at 20:56, dwight elvey wrote: > > The 2147s draw a lot more power than the 4044s Well, there are lower consumption parts available; the Intel 2147L or C2147AL; the AMD Am21L47. On the other hand, if you've got the supply headroom, the 2147 is only 2 bucks and change at Arcade Components. But good luck finding the low-power variety. From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Sat Aug 14 23:47:47 2010 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2010 21:47:47 -0700 Subject: Static RAM chip source (& S-100 related questions...) In-Reply-To: <4C670B6E.8790.295EE0A@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4C67464B.8090303@mail.msu.edu>, <4C66F9F9.31905.251BE4A@cclist.sydex.com>, <SNT129-W24E6F835198DD347B58BFAA39A0@phx.gbl> <4C670B6E.8790.295EE0A@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4C677173.60502@mail.msu.edu> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 14 Aug 2010 at 20:56, dwight elvey wrote: > > >> The 2147s draw a lot more power than the 4044s >> > > Well, there are lower consumption parts available; the Intel 2147L or > C2147AL; the AMD Am21L47. On the other hand, if you've got the > supply headroom, the 2147 is only 2 bucks and change at Arcade > Components. > > But good luck finding the low-power variety. > > The board I'm populating needs 64 chips, but I'm only missing six of them. Is valid to assume that 2147s will play nicely with the existing 5257s? In that case the extra power consumption from 6 2147s is probably not going to break the bank. Thanks, Josh From cclist at sydex.com Sun Aug 15 00:22:03 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2010 22:22:03 -0700 Subject: Static RAM chip source (& S-100 related questions...) In-Reply-To: <4C677173.60502@mail.msu.edu> References: <4C67464B.8090303@mail.msu.edu>, <4C670B6E.8790.295EE0A@cclist.sydex.com>, <4C677173.60502@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <4C67170B.21415.2C3497D@cclist.sydex.com> On 14 Aug 2010 at 21:47, Josh Dersch wrote: > The board I'm populating needs 64 chips, but I'm only missing six of > them. Is valid to assume that 2147s will play nicely with the > existing 5257s? In that case the extra power consumption from 6 2147s > is probably not going to break the bank. I'd probably replace a row of 8, not just the 6. The 2147 is a lot faster than the MM5257 (by about a factor of 5) which probably accounts for the difference in power consumption. If you've got the power, you should be fine. --Chuck From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Sun Aug 15 00:51:14 2010 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2010 22:51:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: transistor replacements Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.1.10.1008142246450.9413@sleipnir.cs.csubak.edu> I'm playing around with an old gizmo that calls for mps-u05 and mps-u55 transistors. They're obsolete, but easy enough to find on Ebay. I would rather use something more modern, particularly because these are in a power supply. Can someone suggest substitutes in a TO-220 case? I'm not coming up with anything satisfying with Mouser's select-o-matic. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From spectre at floodgap.com Sun Aug 15 01:34:32 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2010 23:34:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [gopher] OT: Anyone interested in text editor programming? (fwd) In-Reply-To: <CC28F43ED4708D489ABCF68D06D7F556040A5CC9E1@505DENALI.corp.vnw.com> from Rich Alderson at "Aug 14, 10 05:42:40 pm" Message-ID: <201008150634.o7F6YW25015892@floodgap.com> > $DEITY, I hate children who think that because something is unknown to them > it must be unknown to all the world! Rich, I can tell you feel strongly, but I had never heard of Video TECO either, so is republishing it and bringing it up to date not a good thing? I'm sort of regretting posting Nick's announcement here, given the response has been generally negative. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- When two elephants fight, the grass and trees suffer. -- African proverb --- From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sun Aug 15 01:46:03 2010 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2010 23:46:03 -0700 Subject: transistor replacements In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.1.10.1008142246450.9413@sleipnir.cs.csubak.edu> References: <alpine.DEB.1.10.1008142246450.9413@sleipnir.cs.csubak.edu> Message-ID: <2e5a29e0adcc27880200304157c39c48@cs.ubc.ca> On 2010 Aug 14, at 10:51 PM, David Griffith wrote: > I'm playing around with an old gizmo that calls for mps-u05 and > mps-u55 transistors. They're obsolete, but easy enough to find on > Ebay. I would rather use something more modern, particularly because > these are in a power supply. Can someone suggest substitutes in a > TO-220 case? I'm not coming up with anything satisfying with Mouser's > select-o-matic. > First thing that comes to mind for general-purpose use are the TO-220 variants of the venerable NPN 2N3055 (originally TO-3 package): NPN: MJE3055T PNP: MJE2955T The Motorola datasheet here covers both of them: http://www.datasheetcatalog.com/datasheets_pdf/M/J/E/3/MJE3055.shtml To be honest, I haven't actually bought either of these in ages, I generally have enough surplus to scavenge from, so I don't know what current prices are. They might be a little over-rated relative to the 05/55, so there might be something just as common and cheaper out there. From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Aug 15 03:23:05 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2010 04:23:05 -0400 Subject: Useful cables (was Re: Terminals...) In-Reply-To: <p0621020ac88d06501c58@[192.168.0.16]> References: <mailman.3.1281805203.14674.cctalk@classiccmp.org> <4C6724B7.3090908@softjar.se> <AANLkTi=V57iG5hLRtw7h3d+R9AyS_t5EXZ8XmxF7=So1@mail.gmail.com> <4C674255.2080904@neurotica.com> <p0621020ac88d06501c58@[192.168.0.16]> Message-ID: <4C67A3E9.3010001@neurotica.com> On 8/14/10 10:54 PM, Kevin Schoedel wrote: >> I'd dearly love to see 120V AC power delivered on 1/8" headphone jacks >> for a few years...just to clean up the gene pool a bit. > > The necessary adapters exist, and are readily available from any photo shop > that carries pro lighting gear. > > Examples: > http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/682580-REG/Impact_10032330_Sync_Cord_Mini.html > http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/613977-REG/Impact_9031510_Mini_3_5_mm_to.html We need to see to it that a very large number of these find their way out into the general public. =) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Aug 15 03:40:33 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2010 04:40:33 -0400 Subject: Terminals... In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimPQGnCTT8YTDNoUuiSERsqubPsuAvdQhoGPfDX@mail.gmail.com> References: <mailman.20.1281656478.1006.cctalk@classiccmp.org> <4C6501DD.4030309@softjar.se> <AANLkTikXTL5SACxgRJBXMNiXAKP9zeFUiUBUXWW_B29P@mail.gmail.com> <AANLkTimPQGnCTT8YTDNoUuiSERsqubPsuAvdQhoGPfDX@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4C67A801.9010806@neurotica.com> On 8/14/10 10:23 PM, Paul Anderson wrote: > I think the US version has the attached power cord, and the international > one has an attached power cord. Um. Huh? ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Aug 15 03:41:24 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2010 04:41:24 -0400 Subject: Terminals... In-Reply-To: <029501cb3c1e$7c03cb60$0600000a@portajara> References: <mailman.3.1281805203.14674.cctalk@classiccmp.org> <4C6724B7.3090908@softjar.se><AANLkTi=V57iG5hLRtw7h3d+R9AyS_t5EXZ8XmxF7=So1@mail.gmail.com> <4C674255.2080904@neurotica.com> <029501cb3c1e$7c03cb60$0600000a@portajara> Message-ID: <4C67A834.9030801@neurotica.com> On 8/14/10 9:57 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >> I'd dearly love to see 120V AC power delivered on 1/8" headphone jacks >> for a few years...just to clean up the gene pool a bit. > > Oh Dave, you're a naughty boy :oD B-) -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From glen.slick at gmail.com Sun Aug 15 12:12:19 2010 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2010 10:12:19 -0700 Subject: Static RAM chip source (& S-100 related questions...) In-Reply-To: <4C67170B.21415.2C3497D@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4C67464B.8090303@mail.msu.edu> <4C670B6E.8790.295EE0A@cclist.sydex.com> <4C677173.60502@mail.msu.edu> <4C67170B.21415.2C3497D@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <AANLkTik0k2J_KDj6p3chkipmDUORK8iHnOK8Zkm_aTro@mail.gmail.com> On Sat, Aug 14, 2010 at 10:22 PM, Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> wrote: > On 14 Aug 2010 at 21:47, Josh Dersch wrote: > > >> The board I'm populating needs 64 chips, but I'm only missing six of >> them. ?Is valid to assume that 2147s will play nicely with the >> existing 5257s? ?In that case the extra power consumption from 6 2147s >> is probably not going to break the bank. > > I'd probably replace a row of 8, not just the 6. ?The 2147 is a lot > faster than the MM5257 (by about a factor of 5) which probably > accounts for the difference in power consumption. ?If you've got the > power, you should be fine. > > --Chuck One other thing that might help the situation is that the 2147 enters an automatic power-down mode when the CE# input is at a high level. For example the datasheet for the CY2147-35 says the max operating current is 125ma while the max standby current is 25ma. Do MM5257 parts enter a standby mode when not selected? I don't have a datasheet handy. Which would draw more current total, two banks of MM5257 parts, or two banks of CY2147 parts where at least one of the two banks should be in standby mode? -Glen From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Aug 15 13:23:35 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2010 19:23:35 +0100 (BST) Subject: Terminals... In-Reply-To: <4C6724B7.3090908@softjar.se> from "Johnny Billquist" at Aug 15, 10 01:20:23 am Message-ID: <m1Okhrz-000J43C@p850ug1> > >>> >> Not at all, I just wanted to know what he didn't like about them= > . The > >>> >> only thing I dislike about VT420s is the non-removable power cable= > s. > >> >=20 > >> > Huh? My VT420s have removable power cords... > >=20 > > Mine do not. This is interesting. I know there was a variation of > > the VT320 (yes 320) that had a removable power cord, but they're not > > terribly common. Apparently there's a removable-cord version of the > > VT420 as well. Interesting! > > Hmm. Unfortunately I don't have any VT320 around anymore, since all of=20 > them have broken down (flybacks mostly). But I've had atleast five of=20 > them over time, and all have had removable cords. > > I wonder if this might be more of a european thing. Since different=20 > countries in Europe use different power plugs, it makes sense to have=20 That would make a lot of sense. I've seen something similar on other equipment too -- IIRC the IBM5152 graphics pritner had a permanently-fixed mains cable in the 115V version and a plug-in one (IEC connector) for the 220 and 240V versions. > Huh? That is totally backwards in more than one way. > Yes, MMJ "fixed" one thing. It has nothing to do with ethernet, but all=20 > to do with people (and companies) who couldn't figure out how to wire a=20 > DB25. Almost all companies got the gender wrong on their equipment. In=20 > addition to that, many couldn't figure out what a DTE and DCE was. > Now, that is called standard violation. Causing people to have cables=20 > they think they can connect, but which don't work. DEC is one of the two=20 > companies that did get it right (the other one being HP). To this day,=20 This must be a totally different HP to the one I've come across... If HP used a male connector on a piece of equipment, it was DTE. But if they used a female conenctor, it might be DTE, it might be DCE. I've lost count of the number of HP printer ports (both on computers/terminals and on printers) which are DTEs on a female connector. Mnay HP devices had a 50 pin microribbon connector for the serial port. It was actually quite nice, in that it might carry RS422 signals as well as RS232, and it would have the +/-12V ans +5V poiwer lines avaialble for interface converters. HP sold cables to link it to normal DB25s (and I think they sold 'standard violating cables' such as a male DB25 wired as a DCE!) And then there's the HP82164... It has a male connecotr, but an internal jumper block that can switch it between DTE and DCE wiring (!). And i nthe DCE mode, some of the connections are _weird_. I find the onyl sane way to use that device is to keep that jumper set to DTE and make up the cables as necessary. Heck, I've even got an HP RS232 interface unit with a cable ending ina 36 pin microribbon plug, like a Centronics printer conenctor. Origianlly it would ahve come with an adapter from that to DB25s, but of course that can get lost... So I do not regard H Pas one of the 'good guys' here... > it totally amaze me how so many companies couldn't get this right. And=20 > from that perspective it don't surprise me when people around here don't=20 > get it either (there was a long thread not long ago, which I declined to=20 > even participate in). RS-232 is so simple that it's hard to get wrong.=20 > There is only two things you can mess up with. Connector gender, and DTE=20 > vs DCE. How can people find that so difficult??? My view is that DTE/DCE is different from either conenctor gender or wiring. The reason is that RS232 is not quire symmetrical. Sure, there are obvious pairs of signals that everybody knows swap with each ohter -- TxD <-> RxD, RTS <-> CTS, DSR <-> DTR. But there are also many signals that don't have a couterpart going the other way. The most common one is DCD (carrier detect) which is DCE->DTE only. And the second most common one is RI (Ring indicator). There are many more, though (DRS -- DAta Rate Select is from DTE to DCE, for xample). Given that, my view is that a device where DCD is an input is a DTE no moatter what connector is used, what gender of connector is used, and how it's wired. This implies that I consider the HP 50 pin interface to be a DTE, BTW. > And if people and companies had actually stayed with the standard, you=20 > wouldn't even had been able to mix those to parameters up. True enough. > > A DTE *should* have a *male* DB25. A DCE *should* have a female DB25. A=20 > male-male cable should be crossed, a female-female cable should be=20 Perhaps you could give explicint wirelists for a 'crossed' cable that always works. Because I sure can't! > crossed, a male-female cable should be straight. There is nothing more=20 > to it. I disagree there... > > All terminals and computers are DTEs. Modems are DCEs. But it you=20 I have seen computers with DCE ports. Really DCE -- that is a female connector, wired as a DCE. The idea is you can plug a terminal straight in. > absolutely wanted to, feel free to wire a modem up as a DTE. It will=20 I don;t think you can. What are you going to do with DCD and RI? They are outputs from amodem, what pins on a DTE connector are you going to connect htem to. > And to make matters ridiculously worse, we have IBM. Who simply put just=20 The original PC Asyunc card (and IIRC at least one of the synchronous cards) got it right. A DB25 male, wired as a DTE. That seems to fit the standard. > raped the RS-232 standard by using a DE9, moving one or two pins in a=20 > totally non-logical way, changing the gender, *and* sortof wiring it as=20 > a DCE. Err, no. It's a DTE (clearly, since the DCD and RIO pins are inputs, and in fact the pin named TxD is an output, etc). It's a male connector (as a DTE should be). All they did was use a DE9 connector and define a pinout for it. I don't think that's a big problem. BTW, the standard IBM cable for this (as docuemtned in the manuals) has a DE9 socket to fit the card linked ot a DB25 plug, and that is wired as a DTE. Which IMHO meets the standard. > They should be taken out to the back and shot. IBM have caused more=20 > damage to the computer world than all other companies put together. While I have no particular love of IBM, I don;t think this is a fair comment at all. And I certainyl don't think their version of the RS232 interface violtates anything much. > > Here is a simple tip for the next time you wire a RS-232 up. Measure pin=20 > 2 and 3 on the equipment. One should at around -12V, while the other is=20 > around 0. Do this on both sides. Then wire the -12V from one side to the=20 > 0V on the other for both 2 and 3. And run pin 7 straight through. I find those little adapters with 7 or so bicoloured LEDs useful for this. Pity they are hard to get now... I assume fro mthe pin numbers you are using DB25 connectors. In which case you shouldalwo wire pin 1 straight through using the screen (shield) of the cable. If you're going to complain about violating sandards.... > And that's it. You now have a correct RS-232 cable, albeit just the data=20 > leads. You can wire the rest up if it amuse you. The most important ones=20 Problem is, a lot of devices require at least some of those control signals to be asserted... And some devices use odd ones (pin 11 as a busy signal is a favourite of many printers!). If you don't wire them correctly, eitherr you lose data when the buffer fills, or nothing works at all. I have 3 things which make life a lot easier. The first one violates the standards, but it helps to undo violations... 1) A 'all gender cahle'This is a lenght of 25 way IDC cable with a DB25 plug and a DB5 socket at both ends (4 connectors total). Used when some idiot has wired a DTE on a socket, for example. 2) A 'loopbakc handshake' null modem adapter. This wires 7 striaght through, swapps 2 and 3, and straps 4 to 5 and 6 to 8 to 20 at each end. 3) A 'full handshake' null modem adapter. 7 staight through, swap 2 with 3, 4 with 5 and 6 and 8 (strapped) with 20. Some devices need moe trickery, which is why I have a breakout box. And various special cables and adapters kept with the devices in question. > are DCD, DTR, DSR, RTS, CTS. For a DTE-DTE, you should wire CTS to RTS=20 > and DCD+DSR to DTR. Very simple. And if I remember right, we're talking=20 > about pines 4,5,6,8 and 20. But I'd usually check the RS-232 DB25=20 Yes. > connector layout before I try to wire a full cable up. Most of the time=20 The common pins for the DB25 wiring iare burnt into my brain. But I have to look up things like the back channel connections (yes, I do have at least one device that implements that). > I'm happy with just 2,3 and 7 anyway, since I don't do hardware flow=20 > control (another RS-232 standards violation, by the way, and which DEC=20 Indeed it is. Originally modems didn't buffer data. The control lines were between the modem and the termnial/computer, but the 2 devices that need to agree on flow control are the terminal and the computer -- the 2 DTEs. And those signals are not sent over the communiation link by themdoem. However, so many devives violate the standard and use these lines for flow control that it is very useufl to know what to do with them. The problem comes when one device insites on using DTR (say) to indicate buffer full while the other one uses CTS to control the transmitter. You need a speically-wired cable in that case. Not hard to do, though. > did not do). But having the DSR signal is useful to detect if someone=20 Are there really no DEC RS232 ports with hardware flow control. I am very suprised... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Aug 15 13:33:56 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2010 19:33:56 +0100 (BST) Subject: Terminals... In-Reply-To: <4C674255.2080904@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Aug 14, 10 09:26:45 pm Message-ID: <m1Oki20-000J48C@p850ug1> > > On 8/14/10 8:14 PM, William Donzelli wrote: > > IBM certainly played the standard violation game as well, but somehow > > the DE9 serial issue is no big deal. Order or make cable Z, and the > > problem is solved. > > DE-9 serial ports!! *spit* If EE-9s were the only non-standard serial ports I had to deal with, I would be happy. But I've got them on DB25s, DE9s, DC37s (!) (4 poirtson one connector..), 5 pin quincuncial DIN plugs, 8 pin DIN plugs, 8 pin mini-DINs (and no, not the Mac version), 3-contact jack plugs, 4 pin 2mm headers, 10 pin 2mm headers (2 different versions), 50 pin microribbons, 36 pin microribbons, various PCB card edge conenctors etc, etc, etc. But actually, I've had many worse thigns to sort out. Mostly it's justr a matter of matching up signals... > So yes, all over the industry we have connector confusion problems > primarily because people refuse to pay attention to what they're doing. > I'd dearly love to see 120V AC power delivered on 1/8" headphone jack > for a few years...just to clean up the gene pool a bit. The first problem is that jack plugs (as we call them) tend to monetarily short when plugged in or pulled out... I have no idea what the flashover voltage of such a connector is, but I am likely to measure it jsut to see... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Aug 15 13:37:15 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2010 19:37:15 +0100 (BST) Subject: Terminals... In-Reply-To: <E1OkSKi-0005BT-NE@shell.xmission.com> from "Richard" at Aug 14, 10 07:48:20 pm Message-ID: <m1Oki59-000J3yC@p850ug1> > It doesn't help that these two different roles differ in their acronym > by only a single letter that sounds almost identical when pronounced > out. 'Charlie' doesn't sound a bit like 'Tango' to my ears... Going very off-topic., the one I find worry is that (in the UK, at least), medical doctors use 'hypo-' to mean 'too low' and 'hyper-' to mean 'too high'. Those do sound very similar, and the consequences of getting it wrong are a lot worse than having to re-wire a DB25... -tony From cclist at sydex.com Sun Aug 15 14:02:30 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2010 12:02:30 -0700 Subject: Static RAM chip source (& S-100 related questions...) In-Reply-To: <AANLkTik0k2J_KDj6p3chkipmDUORK8iHnOK8Zkm_aTro@mail.gmail.com> References: <4C67464B.8090303@mail.msu.edu>, <4C67170B.21415.2C3497D@cclist.sydex.com>, <AANLkTik0k2J_KDj6p3chkipmDUORK8iHnOK8Zkm_aTro@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4C67D756.21022.B36B36@cclist.sydex.com> On 15 Aug 2010 at 10:12, Glen Slick wrote: > One other thing that might help the situation is that the 2147 enters > an automatic power-down mode when the CE# input is at a high level. > For example the datasheet for the CY2147-35 says the max operating > current is 125ma while the max standby current is 25ma. > > Do MM5257 parts enter a standby mode when not selected? I don't have > a datasheet handy. Which would draw more current total, two banks of > MM5257 parts, or two banks of CY2147 parts where at least one of the > two banks should be in standby mode? If the 5257 parts are like the TMS4044 parts, standy is entered by reducing Vcc to 2.4V. Otherwise, maximum operating power dissipation is given as 303 mW. I somehow doubt that the memory board in question has the smarts to drop Vcc. There also exist CMOS versions of the same chip--the Motorola MCM146504, the Harris HM6504 or the Intersil IM6504 is one such, with a standby power of 10mW. These are the same speed (450nsec) as the TMS4044s. So more grist for your mill... --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sun Aug 15 14:14:03 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2010 12:14:03 -0700 Subject: Static RAM chip source (& S-100 related questions...) In-Reply-To: <AANLkTik0k2J_KDj6p3chkipmDUORK8iHnOK8Zkm_aTro@mail.gmail.com> References: <4C67464B.8090303@mail.msu.edu>, <4C67170B.21415.2C3497D@cclist.sydex.com>, <AANLkTik0k2J_KDj6p3chkipmDUORK8iHnOK8Zkm_aTro@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4C67DA0B.24984.BDFD73@cclist.sydex.com> Another option is the InMOS IMS1203 CMOS SRAM. Same pinout (it's a JEDEC standard, so other examples probably abound), fast (45 nsec) and low power (80/15 mA active/standby current). Shame that you need the 4K parts. I have a whole potload of the 16K 20-pin parts. FWIW, Chuck From jws at jwsss.com Sun Aug 15 04:08:47 2010 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2010 02:08:47 -0700 Subject: Logic analyzer pods Message-ID: <4C67AE9F.7020109@jwsss.com> I know this may be a long stretch, but one almost never sees logic analyzer pods on ebay, usually someone with the box who is way too proud of it. Here is an auction for some K100D pods, and if you look at the other auctions there are others, I think. Thought I'd pass it along for those interested, since older logic analyzers are pretty useful for the people on the list. 130410451946 They are also "Buy it now" so first come first served if the price isn't too high for you. Jim From biblioamy at gmail.com Sun Aug 15 10:10:12 2010 From: biblioamy at gmail.com (Amy Murray) Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2010 09:10:12 -0600 Subject: Osborne 1 microcomputer + software available Message-ID: <AANLkTikmcYdJts25eMpNo2EYrs8ySNOsj7FzHJXVsNdy@mail.gmail.com> I have an Osborne 1 Microcomputer with software available, as described below, for free or just pay shipping if it needs to be shipped. I was informed I could post a listing on the Classiccmp site by just sending this email. I need to find an interested home for it! Thanks in advance for your help if you can. Osborne 1 computer + software pay shipping only Osborne 1 Computer, 1981, the "first commercially successful portable microcomputer" (Wikipedia). We are the second owners. Last we checked, several years ago, it runs perfectly. Software included: CP/M tm V2.2 System & Utility copyright 1981 by Digital Research Wordstar/Mailmerge Version 2.26 copyright 1981 by MicroPro Int. CBasic/MBasic copyright 1981 by Microsoft Supercalc v1.12 copyright 1982 by Sorcim Corp. Personal Pearl copyright 1982 Relational Systems version 1.02 (all 7 diskettes, Disk 2 Design Reports, Disk 3 Install Forms and Reports, Disk 4 Enter Data, Disk 5 Produce Reports, Disk 6 File Maintenance, Disk 7 Startup Disk) AMCALL copyright MicroCALL Services version 2.06 ~ Amy (Longmont, Colorado) From dgari at msn.com Sun Aug 15 14:55:54 2010 From: dgari at msn.com (David Gari) Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2010 12:55:54 -0700 Subject: transistor replacements In-Reply-To: <mailman.3.1281891602.37927.cctalk@classiccmp.org> References: <mailman.3.1281891602.37927.cctalk@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <COL120-W311D541461117B82812177BC9A0@phx.gbl> Assuming they are complementary, these oughta work: http://www.nteinc.com/specs/100to199/pdf/nte188.pdf _ From ajp166 at verizon.net Sun Aug 15 15:58:19 2010 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2010 16:58:19 -0400 Subject: Static RAM chip source (& S-100 related questions...) In-Reply-To: <4C67D756.21022.B36B36@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4C67464B.8090303@mail.msu.edu>, <4C67170B.21415.2C3497D@cclist.sydex.com>, <AANLkTik0k2J_KDj6p3chkipmDUORK8iHnOK8Zkm_aTro@mail.gmail.com> <4C67D756.21022.B36B36@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4C6854EB.3060307@verizon.net> On 08/15/2010 03:02 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 15 Aug 2010 at 10:12, Glen Slick wrote: > > >> One other thing that might help the situation is that the 2147 enters >> an automatic power-down mode when the CE# input is at a high level. >> For example the datasheet for the CY2147-35 says the max operating >> current is 125ma while the max standby current is 25ma. >> >> Do MM5257 parts enter a standby mode when not selected? I don't have >> a datasheet handy. Which would draw more current total, two banks of >> MM5257 parts, or two banks of CY2147 parts where at least one of the >> two banks should be in standby mode? >> > If the 5257 parts are like the TMS4044 parts, standy is entered by > reducing Vcc to 2.4V. Otherwise, maximum operating power dissipation > is given as 303 mW. I somehow doubt that the memory board in > question has the smarts to drop Vcc. > > There also exist CMOS versions of the same chip--the Motorola > MCM146504, the Harris HM6504 or the Intersil IM6504 is one such, with > a standby power of 10mW. These are the same speed (450nsec) as the > TMS4044s. So more grist for your mill... > > --Chuck > > > Watch out, Some parts like the 6504 are not fully static and the logic is somewhat dynamic with the transition of CS performing the precharge of the gating logic around a static cell. That means you must cycle CS for every address change withing a read/write or RMW cycle. Allison From cclist at sydex.com Sun Aug 15 18:43:29 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2010 16:43:29 -0700 Subject: Static RAM chip source (& S-100 related questions...) In-Reply-To: <4C6854EB.3060307@verizon.net> References: <4C67464B.8090303@mail.msu.edu>, <4C67D756.21022.B36B36@cclist.sydex.com>, <4C6854EB.3060307@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4C681931.12813.1B4A966@cclist.sydex.com> On 15 Aug 2010 at 16:58, allison wrote: > Watch out, > Some parts like the 6504 are not fully static and the > logic is somewhat dynamic with the transition of CS > performing the precharge of the gating logic around a > static cell. That means you must cycle CS for every > address change withing a read/write or RMW cycle. I think you're saying that the address is latched on the edge of the enable/chip select line. That's probably okay in this situation, I'm guessing. --Chuck From mtapley at swri.edu Sun Aug 15 19:08:26 2010 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2010 19:08:26 -0500 Subject: EPROM programming (27c160's) Message-ID: <p06240806c88e2859ae7d@[192.168.1.116]> Tony, At 19:37 -0500 8/13/10, Alexandre wrote: > I think I still have an image of the old site on my desktop, mail me if >you want that Alexandre's link, http://web.archive.org/web/20080621113020/http://www.willem.org/ points to a page which my machine loads only glacially, apparently because the server isn't responding fast. Meantime, my Googling for "willem programmer" produced this page: http://www.sivava.com/ which describes a commercially available EPROM programmer. Packages start at US$39. Many adaptors are available, prices $3 - $70. Driver software appears to be Windows only (9x - XP). The programmer looks like a single free-standing circuit board, ~9 IC's plus a lot of sockets including a DIP ZIF socket. USB power, "DB25" data cable (!). Ah, reading further, there's an AC/DC power adaptor as well, so I guess you don't need a PC with both USB and Serial. I think the two pages are talking about the same thing, or at least different versions of the same thing. I'm not sure about that. Hope this helps! -- - Mark 210-379-4635 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Large Asteroids headed toward planets inhabited by beings that don't have technology adequate to stop them: Think of it as Evolution in Fast-Forward. From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Sun Aug 15 19:37:13 2010 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2010 20:37:13 -0400 Subject: Greetings fellow classiccmp'ers In-Reply-To: <4C5C011D.1070701@compsys.to> References: <20100801195510.C7FAD1E0229@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> <4C5C011D.1070701@compsys.to> Message-ID: <4C688839.4020708@compsys.to> >Jerome H. Fine wrote: > >Tim Shoppa wrote: > >> Having recently migrated all the stuff on *.trailing-edge.com to a 2010 >> era server (as opposed to the 2000 era server it was on - previous >> to that it had been on an Alpha with VMS, and previous to that it >> had been on a VAX with VMS) with >> fresh installs of all the software I was pleasantly >> surprised with the advances that have been made in apache and mailman >> configuration over time especially with respect to virtual domains etc. >> In particular the Ubuntu distribution was very straightforward to >> deal with... >> after I had adopted to the more modern configuration techniques. >> >> And spamassassin can be better integrated with postfix and mailman than >> in the past, to the point where the obvious spams never have to make it >> to a moderator's mailbox or turn up as a bogus request to the admin >> address. >> >> I'm not sure you need to stage through an intermediate platform, BTW. >> Just bite the bullet and go to the final platform. Unless you really >> enjoy installing and configuring everything twice. Although I was >> pleasantly surprised with the new Apache etc. configuration methods >> I still wouldn't want to do it twice. > > Can you let us know the new address of those files? > > In particular, I was impressed with the stuff at: > ftp://ftp.trailing-edge.com/pub > but it no longer responds. Are those files available elsewhere and I > am just looking in the wrong place? Hi Tim, I am not sure if you did something in response to my inquiry or the files were there all along. However, I am now able to access that site once again. THANK YOU!! There are two comprehensive CD based collections of RT-11 binary distributions with both an ISO directory and several RT-11 directories (in some respects similar to the RT-11 Freeware CD). On the other hand, both CD images were compressed with "zip" rather than "bz2". If you would also be inclined to host then and would prefer to have them compressed using "bz2", I could certainly do that and send them to you via the "incoming" directory (if I do not require a password, etc.). Please let me know. Otherwise, I already have a file with the MD5 values for the "zip" compressed versions along with the MD5 values for the actual uncompressed ISO CD images. I attached the file with those MD5 values to an e-mail I sent to Jay West to be included with the compressed "zip" files of the two compressed CD images. Jerome Fine From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Sun Aug 15 19:58:03 2010 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2010 17:58:03 -0700 Subject: IMSAI 8080 power supply ratings... Message-ID: <4C688D1B.5030008@mail.msu.edu> Hi all -- So the recent discussion of static RAM and the power consumption thereof has lead me to figure out what the approximate rating for my IMSAI's power supply is, before I inadvertently overload it. I have an IMSAI manual that describes the PS-28U as having a rating of 28A on the 7V supply, and 4.5 on the +/-13.5V supplies. Unfortunately, the PS-28U does not appear to be the supply I have fitted in my IMSAI, based on the component descriptions, schematics, and pictures in the manual. I'm unable to find schematics or a manual for any other IMSAI 8080 power supply other than the PS-28U. I have a picture of my IMSAI's power supply at: http://yahozna.dyndns.org/scratch/imsai/IMG_0244.JPG. It contains a 17,000uF, a 12,000uF, and a 95,000uF capacitor. (And a very large transformer as well.) Any IMSAI experts out there familiar with this particular variant? (And thanks again for all the help with the static RAM. I have been offered some 2147s locally and with those, hopefully I'll be able to get the 32K board running again...) Thanks, Josh From tosteve at yahoo.com Sun Aug 15 20:14:15 2010 From: tosteve at yahoo.com (steven stengel) Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2010 18:14:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Tons of tapes and diskpacks for TI-990 computer Message-ID: <114682.78276.qm@web110601.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Allan Frogger in Central California writes: "" I have DS5 diskpacks (5 MB) and DS80 diskpacks (80MB) (heavy copper, 12"? platters, in polycarbonate shells) for a TI 990 computer, as well as extra terminals with screen and keyboards. I also have reel tapes for TI and many 8" floppies, many in original boxes - they are all functional as I used them on my TI990 system before I moved. "" See pictures here: http://popbottlecaps.com/temp/ti-990.html Contact Allen at <allanfrogger at yahoo.com> if interested From jack.rubin at ameritech.net Sun Aug 15 22:20:14 2010 From: jack.rubin at ameritech.net (Jack Rubin) Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2010 22:20:14 -0500 Subject: looking for monitor and cable for DECmate II Message-ID: <A5AA6234CAC446AD939C9F82473882E0@obie> I just acquired a nice DECMate II but it lacks monitor and cable. Can anyone help me with a VR201 monitor (shared with Rainbow and DEC Pro series) and/or the special DA-15 cable which provides both video and keyboard connection to the main box. Please reply directly offlist. Thanks, Jack From geoffr at zipcon.net Sun Aug 15 22:54:08 2010 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoffrey Reed) Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2010 20:54:08 -0700 Subject: Willem programmers: was -Re: EPROM programming (27c160's) In-Reply-To: <p06240806c88e2859ae7d@[192.168.1.116]> Message-ID: <C88E0470.26D3F%geoffr@zipcon.net> Supposedly the USB schematics were released at one point (true USB using a FPGA for programmer logic) but I have yet to find them anywhere. From cclist at sydex.com Mon Aug 16 00:34:25 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2010 22:34:25 -0700 Subject: IMSAI 8080 power supply ratings... In-Reply-To: <4C688D1B.5030008@mail.msu.edu> References: <4C688D1B.5030008@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <4C686B71.7022.2F5F356@cclist.sydex.com> On 15 Aug 2010 at 17:58, Josh Dersch wrote: > So the recent discussion of static RAM and the power consumption > thereof has lead me to figure out what the approximate rating for my > IMSAI's power supply is, before I inadvertently overload it. I have > an IMSAI manual that describes the PS-28U as having a rating of 28A on > the 7V supply, and 4.5 on the +/-13.5V supplies. Unfortunately, the > PS-28U does not appear to be the supply I have fitted in my IMSAI, > based on the component descriptions, schematics, and pictures in the > manual. I'm unable to find schematics or a manual for any other IMSAI > 8080 power supply other than the PS-28U. I think you misunderstand. I was referring to the on-board regulator for the RAM card--but with 8 chips, you might need 100-200 mA more. You're probably okay, unless your regulator is on the hairy edge of failure. --Chuck From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Mon Aug 16 01:10:16 2010 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2010 23:10:16 -0700 Subject: IMSAI 8080 power supply ratings... In-Reply-To: <4C686B71.7022.2F5F356@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4C688D1B.5030008@mail.msu.edu> <4C686B71.7022.2F5F356@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4C68D648.20500@mail.msu.edu> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 15 Aug 2010 at 17:58, Josh Dersch wrote: > > >> So the recent discussion of static RAM and the power consumption >> thereof has lead me to figure out what the approximate rating for my >> IMSAI's power supply is, before I inadvertently overload it. I have >> an IMSAI manual that describes the PS-28U as having a rating of 28A on >> the 7V supply, and 4.5 on the +/-13.5V supplies. Unfortunately, the >> PS-28U does not appear to be the supply I have fitted in my IMSAI, >> based on the component descriptions, schematics, and pictures in the >> manual. I'm unable to find schematics or a manual for any other IMSAI >> 8080 power supply other than the PS-28U. >> > > I think you misunderstand. I was referring to the on-board regulator > for the RAM card--but with 8 chips, you might need 100-200 mA more. > You're probably okay, unless your regulator is on the hairy edge of > failure. > > --Chuck > No, no -- I understood that. I'm just curious as to the amount of hardware the power supply in my IMSAI will reasonably support. Right now I don't have too much installed the system (CPU, 2x8K static RAM) as I'm just working through getting things working one board at a time. I'm planning on expanding it a fair bit (video, I/O, floppy, more RAM). I just don't want to overload it -- I have the 20-slot backplane... I'm guessing loading up every slot with a 32K Static RAM card would probably not be a good thing ;). - Josh From cclist at sydex.com Mon Aug 16 01:20:38 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2010 23:20:38 -0700 Subject: IMSAI 8080 power supply ratings... In-Reply-To: <4C68D648.20500@mail.msu.edu> References: <4C688D1B.5030008@mail.msu.edu>, <4C686B71.7022.2F5F356@cclist.sydex.com>, <4C68D648.20500@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <4C687646.2667.3204293@cclist.sydex.com> On 15 Aug 2010 at 23:10, Josh Dersch wrote: > No, no -- I understood that. I'm just curious as to the amount of > hardware the power supply in my IMSAI will reasonably support. Right > now I don't have too much installed the system (CPU, 2x8K static RAM) > as I'm just working through getting things working one board at a > time. I'm planning on expanding it a fair bit (video, I/O, floppy, > more RAM). I just don't want to overload it -- I have the 20-slot > backplane... I'm guessing loading up every slot with a 32K Static RAM > card would probably not be a good thing ;). Probably not, but you're not going to. Generally speaking, the IMSAI power supplies were pretty generous; not at all like the MITS supplies. I wouldn't worry. --Chuck From teoz at neo.rr.com Mon Aug 16 02:19:54 2010 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 03:19:54 -0400 Subject: Since when are magazines so expensive? Message-ID: <3FED4B441CB84C978A64D2411B973AAC@dell8300> http://cgi.ebay.com/MacWorld-First-Issue-1984_W0QQitemZ110571651570 From silent700 at gmail.com Mon Aug 16 11:01:17 2010 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 11:01:17 -0500 Subject: Since when are magazines so expensive? In-Reply-To: <3FED4B441CB84C978A64D2411B973AAC@dell8300> References: <3FED4B441CB84C978A64D2411B973AAC@dell8300> Message-ID: <AANLkTi=cQiDhrQ5yNjUVuCBiz+UO1ZXhvmYcsmEvMLAh@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, Aug 16, 2010 at 2:19 AM, Teo Zenios <teoz at neo.rr.com> wrote: > http://cgi.ebay.com/MacWorld-First-Issue-1984_W0QQitemZ110571651570 I don't collect MacWorld, but I regularly see Byte #1 go for over $100. Then once in a while one will slip by for $10 (like when I grabbed mine ;) -- jht From curt at atarimuseum.com Mon Aug 16 11:16:52 2010 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 12:16:52 -0400 Subject: Since when are magazines so expensive? In-Reply-To: <AANLkTi=cQiDhrQ5yNjUVuCBiz+UO1ZXhvmYcsmEvMLAh@mail.gmail.com> References: <3FED4B441CB84C978A64D2411B973AAC@dell8300> <AANLkTi=cQiDhrQ5yNjUVuCBiz+UO1ZXhvmYcsmEvMLAh@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4C696474.6040000@atarimuseum.com> Been happening a lot lately, I'm even seeing common PC mags from the 80's being offered for higher then they should prices... whether they sell at those prices all of the time, is another story. Jason T wrote: > On Mon, Aug 16, 2010 at 2:19 AM, Teo Zenios <teoz at neo.rr.com> wrote: > >> http://cgi.ebay.com/MacWorld-First-Issue-1984_W0QQitemZ110571651570 >> > > I don't collect MacWorld, but I regularly see Byte #1 go for over > $100. Then once in a while one will slip by for $10 (like when I > grabbed mine ;) > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 9.0.851 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3075 - Release Date: 08/16/10 02:35:00 > > From silent700 at gmail.com Mon Aug 16 11:41:03 2010 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 11:41:03 -0500 Subject: Since when are magazines so expensive? In-Reply-To: <4C696474.6040000@atarimuseum.com> References: <3FED4B441CB84C978A64D2411B973AAC@dell8300> <AANLkTi=cQiDhrQ5yNjUVuCBiz+UO1ZXhvmYcsmEvMLAh@mail.gmail.com> <4C696474.6040000@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <AANLkTi=A0C8UZLoAPANgMqCit0YLkySpBAORYC+5A1Ar@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, Aug 16, 2010 at 11:16 AM, Curt @ Atari Museum <curt at atarimuseum.com> wrote: > Been happening a lot lately, I'm even seeing common PC mags from the 80's > being offered for higher then they should prices... Yep, lots of those, being ebay and all. This MacWorld has actually been bid up that high, though. Five bidders, too, so possibly even not a scam! From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Aug 16 12:10:18 2010 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 10:10:18 -0700 Subject: Since when are magazines so expensive? In-Reply-To: <AANLkTi=A0C8UZLoAPANgMqCit0YLkySpBAORYC+5A1Ar@mail.gmail.com> References: <3FED4B441CB84C978A64D2411B973AAC@dell8300> <AANLkTi=cQiDhrQ5yNjUVuCBiz+UO1ZXhvmYcsmEvMLAh@mail.gmail.com> <4C696474.6040000@atarimuseum.com> <AANLkTi=A0C8UZLoAPANgMqCit0YLkySpBAORYC+5A1Ar@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <p06240823c88f215240c5@[192.168.1.199]> At 11:41 AM -0500 8/16/10, Jason T wrote: >On Mon, Aug 16, 2010 at 11:16 AM, Curt @ Atari Museum ><curt at atarimuseum.com> wrote: >> Been happening a lot lately, I'm even seeing common PC mags from the 80's >> being offered for higher then they should prices... > >Yep, lots of those, being ebay and all. This MacWorld has actually >been bid up that high, though. Five bidders, too, so possibly even >not a scam! Makes me tempted to find my copy. I'm glad that wasn't one of the magazines I donated to the History Library. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | From useddec at gmail.com Mon Aug 16 13:07:02 2010 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 13:07:02 -0500 Subject: Terminals... In-Reply-To: <4C67A801.9010806@neurotica.com> References: <mailman.20.1281656478.1006.cctalk@classiccmp.org> <4C6501DD.4030309@softjar.se> <AANLkTikXTL5SACxgRJBXMNiXAKP9zeFUiUBUXWW_B29P@mail.gmail.com> <AANLkTimPQGnCTT8YTDNoUuiSERsqubPsuAvdQhoGPfDX@mail.gmail.com> <4C67A801.9010806@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <AANLkTin84ePzbUkrkDdhO0=byycjqFSbPSDuCiCbAeQz@mail.gmail.com> Sorry- still on too many pain pills. attached cords were for US, 120v, no cord were international. paul On Sun, Aug 15, 2010 at 3:40 AM, Dave McGuire <mcguire at neurotica.com> wrote: > On 8/14/10 10:23 PM, Paul Anderson wrote: > > I think the US version has the attached power cord, and the international > > one has an attached power cord. > > Um. Huh? ;) > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire > Port Charlotte, FL > From RichA at vulcan.com Mon Aug 16 13:18:30 2010 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 11:18:30 -0700 Subject: [gopher] OT: Anyone interested in text editor programming? (fwd) In-Reply-To: <201008150634.o7F6YW25015892@floodgap.com> References: <CC28F43ED4708D489ABCF68D06D7F556040A5CC9E1@505DENALI.corp.vnw.com> from Rich Alderson at "Aug 14, 10 05:42:40 pm" <201008150634.o7F6YW25015892@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <CC28F43ED4708D489ABCF68D06D7F556040A5CC9E5@505DENALI.corp.vnw.com> From: Cameron Kaiser Sent: Saturday, August 14, 2010 11:35 PM >> $DEITY, I hate children who think that because something is unknown to them >> it must be unknown to all the world! > Rich, I can tell you feel strongly, but I had never heard of Video TECO > either, so is republishing it and bringing it up to date not a good thing? > I'm sort of regretting posting Nick's announcement here, given the response > has been generally negative. Cameron, there is a Usenet newsgroup called alt.lang.teco, as well as those devoted to various DEC architectures and those devoted to Emacs in all its variants, and even alt.folklore.computers (to the extent that it hasn't been ruined). Nick does not appear to have asked in any of these fora about the existence of video-friendly TECO implementations. Further, the code he is publishing *AND PUTTING UNDER LICENSE* belongs to someone else, someone with whom he states he has not been able to contact. That is so far from OK that I am surprised that I'm the only one who has had anything to say about it (in public?). I thought about going off and registering on the DebIan list in question, but I hate to drop in on a list just to scold someone who presumably ought to know better. If you want to forward my comments, feel free to do so, as long as you scrub the e-mail address (work) and substitute my Linux mailing lists address "linux at alderson.users.panix.com" (personal) before doing so. Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.PDPplanet.org/ http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 16 12:54:05 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 18:54:05 +0100 (BST) Subject: Logic analyzer pods In-Reply-To: <4C67AE9F.7020109@jwsss.com> from "jim s" at Aug 15, 10 02:08:47 am Message-ID: <m1Ol3t0-000J3uC@p850ug1> > > I know this may be a long stretch, but one almost never sees logic > analyzer pods on ebay, usually someone with the box who is way too proud > of it. > > Here is an auction for some K100D pods, and if you look at the other > auctions there are others, I think. Thank you!. I have a K100D, without any official pods. Theee are not the standard ones (which were indivdual comparator modules for each channel, 10 wired to a 50 pin socket), but certainly look useful. The BIN was reasoanble IMHO, so I did. I am just waiting for the cost of the postage... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 16 13:00:19 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 19:00:19 +0100 (BST) Subject: EPROM programming (27c160's) In-Reply-To: <p06240806c88e2859ae7d@[192.168.1.116]> from "Mark Tapley" at Aug 15, 10 07:08:26 pm Message-ID: <m1Ol3z0-000J3xC@p850ug1> > > Tony, > > At 19:37 -0500 8/13/10, Alexandre wrote: > > I think I still have an image of the old site on my desktop, mail me if > >you want that > > Alexandre's link, > > http://web.archive.org/web/20080621113020/http://www.willem.org/ > > points to a page which my machine loads only glacially, apparently > because the server isn't responding fast. > > Meantime, my Googling for "willem programmer" produced this page: > > http://www.sivava.com/ > > which describes a commercially available EPROM programmer. Packages > start at US$39. Many adaptors are available, prices $3 - $70. Driver > software appears to be Windows only (9x - XP). The programmer looks I am puzzled... This was sent personally to me, but I don;t see how I could make use of the product described. I don't have a Windows machine (this is not time to start that flamefest, all I wil lsay is that for what _I_ want to do, on the machines _I_ own, there are better choices than Windows for the OS. Other people with different machines and requirements may find different OSes suit them better). In any case, EPROM programming is not the problem. Most EPROM programming specs are published, and certianly for 'classic' EPROMs, the ones from differnent manufacturers progam the same way. It's the PALs/GALs/ PLDs/fuse PROMs that are the big problem.. > like a single free-standing circuit board, ~9 IC's plus a lot of > sockets including a DIP ZIF socket. USB power, "DB25" data cable (!). > Ah, reading further, there's an AC/DC power adaptor as well, so I > guess you don't need a PC with both USB and Serial. Are you sure it's serial? Without seing it, and without knowing what the ICs are, I can't really make a sensible comment, but I would have thought it was easier to use the parallel port for something like this -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 16 13:13:42 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 19:13:42 +0100 (BST) Subject: looking for monitor and cable for DECmate II In-Reply-To: <A5AA6234CAC446AD939C9F82473882E0@obie> from "Jack Rubin" at Aug 15, 10 10:20:14 pm Message-ID: <m1Ol4Bx-000J48C@p850ug1> > > I just acquired a nice DECMate II but it lacks monitor and cable. Can = > anyone > help me with a VR201 monitor (shared with Rainbow and DEC Pro series) = > and/or > the special DA-15 cable which provides both video and keyboard = > connection to > the main box. > > Please reply directly offlist. I've sent a copy to you off-list, but I see no reason why this shouldn't be discussed on the list too. The VR201 is a farily standard TV-rate (RS-170) composite video monitor. The only odd features relate to the DA15 connector -- it has no internal PSU (it gets 12V DC over this connector) and it includes the keyboard socket (simply connected to pins on the DA15) Therefore, it's not hard to make up a cable to use any standard composite video monitor. I'll include the notes I made on the 'universal Rainbow video cable' which is overkill for you (it includes the colour monitor sockets too, which won't work AFAIN without a colour video option PCB). If you just wire up the keeyboard socket (a 4-pin modular socket) to the DA15 and a suitable coaxial (RCA phone or BNC) to monochrome ouptu on the DA15, it should work fine. That is, wire the keybaord to pins 6, 8, 14, 15 and the monitor to 12 (signale) and 4 (ground) -tony A universal DEC Rainbow video cable ----------------------------------- This cable allows almost all possible monitor combinations to be used with the Rainbow (see below). Connections : ------------- Rainbow end (DA15-S) 1 >----------+---------+-- Blue Gnd 9 >-------O---------O-- Blue 2 >----------+---------+-- Green Gnd 10 >-------O---------O-- Green 3 >----------+---------+-- Red Gnd 11 >-------O---------O-- Red 4 >----------+---------+-- Mono Gnd 12 >-------O---------O-- Mono 5 >----+ 13 >-+ +------------ Power Gnd 6 >----------+------------ Key Gnd 14 >-------------------- From Key 7 >----------------------- Power 12V 15 >-------------------- To Key 8 >----------------------- Key 12V Box-mounted connectors : VR201 (DA15-P) 1 o 9 o 2 o 10 o 3 o 11 o 4 o-----------+--------+--- Mono Gnd 12 o--------O--------O--- Mono 5 o-------+---------------- Power Gnd 13 o | 6 o-------+---------------- Key Gnd 14 o--------------------- From Key 7 o------------------------ Power 12V 15 o--------------------- To Key 8 o------------------------ Key 12V Monitor BNCs : Red ( o )--------- Red Gnd | +----------- Red Green ( o )--------- Green Gnd | +----------- Green Blue ( o )--------- Blue Gnd | +----------- Blue Mono ( o )--------- Mono Gnd | +----------- Mono LK201 keyboard (RJ11-- front face view) ------- | | ----- ----- | | | | | | -- ^ ^ ^ ^-- | | | | From Key -----+ | | +----- To Key Key 12V----------+ +-------- Key Gnd Components : ------------ DA15S socket + hood (to fit Rainbow video connector) DA15P plug + jackposts (for VR201 connection) 4 off 75 Ohm BNC sockets (for monitor connections). You could use other connectors, like RCA phono, but BNC are standard. RJ11 socket, chassis mounting (for LK201 keyboard). Chassis mounting sockets of this type are very hard to find. I ended up making a bracket to clamp a PCB-mounting one to the panel Metal box of a suitable size to hold the above connectors (apart from the DA15S). 1m cable. At least 4 75 Ohm screened cores and 6 single wires. I used a 'unversal SCART cable' which has 6 75 ohm screened cores (I simply ignored 2 of them), a 4 way screened cable (I used this for the 4 keyboard connections) and 4 other wires (2 in parallel for each of Power 12V and Power Gnd). Possible monitor combinations : ------------------------------- 1) VR201 only This is pretty useless, but you can connect a VR201 mono monitor using the DEC lead to the DA15P on the box. Connect the LK201 keyboard to either the VR201 or the RJ11 on the box. 2) Standard composite mono monitor Connect monitor input to 'mono' BNC on the box. Connect LK201 to the RJ11 on the box. This works just like a VR201, but you can use any monitor 3) VR201 and separate mono graphics monitor Connect VR201 to DA15P. Connect LK201to either RJ11 on the box or to VR201. Connect second (composite) monitor to the 'green' BNC. You can use the dual monitor driver for GSX and have text on the VR201 and graphics on the second monitor 4) Two composite mono monitors Connect one to 'mono' BNC, other to 'green' BNC. Connect LK201 to RJ11 on box. Using the dual monitor driver, you get text on the first monitor and graphics on the second monitor 5) RGB (sync-on-green) colour monitor (e.g. VR241) Connect monitor inputs to BNCs as follows : Red - Red Green - Mono Blue - Blue. Connect LK201 to RJ11 on box. This gives the standard DEC color monitor connections giving green text and colour graphics using the colour monitor driver 6) RGB monitor and VR201 Connect VR201 to DA15P on box. Connect LK201 to RJ11 on box. Connect color monitor as follows Red - Red Green - Green Blue - Blue This gives separate text and colour graphics displays when used with the dual monitor driver 7) RGB monitor and composite mono monitor Connect mono monitor input to 'mono' BNC. Connect LK201 to RJ11. Connect colour monitor as follows Red - Red Green - Green Blue - Blue This gives separate text and colour graphics displays when used with the dual monitor driver From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Aug 16 13:42:44 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 11:42:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [gopher] OT: Anyone interested in text editor programming? (fwd) In-Reply-To: <CC28F43ED4708D489ABCF68D06D7F556040A5CC9E5@505DENALI.corp.vnw.com> from Rich Alderson at "Aug 16, 10 11:18:30 am" Message-ID: <201008161842.o7GIgi1i018306@floodgap.com> > > Rich, I can tell you feel strongly, but I had never heard of Video TECO > > either, so is republishing it and bringing it up to date not a good thing? > > I'm sort of regretting posting Nick's announcement here, given the response > > has been generally negative. > > Cameron, there is a Usenet newsgroup called alt.lang.teco, as well as those > devoted to various DEC architectures and those devoted to Emacs in all its > variants, and even alt.folklore.computers (to the extent that it hasn't been > ruined). Nick does not appear to have asked in any of these fora about the > existence of video-friendly TECO implementations. But must he? I'm sure there are billions of Commodore-related outlets that I don't know about. > Further, the code he is publishing *AND PUTTING UNDER LICENSE* belongs to > someone else, someone with whom he states he has not been able to contact. > That is so far from OK that I am surprised that I'm the only one who has > had anything to say about it (in public?). That's a valid point, I didn't notice that myself. I'll mention that to him. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Michael Jackson is [reverse] Pinocchio: more lies, less nose. -- Vanity Fair From technobug at comcast.net Mon Aug 16 14:20:17 2010 From: technobug at comcast.net (CRC) Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 12:20:17 -0700 Subject: Biomation K100D Logic Analyzers (Was: Logic analyzer pods) In-Reply-To: <mailman.3.1281978002.55358.cctalk@classiccmp.org> References: <mailman.3.1281978002.55358.cctalk@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <A637A09B-1C05-4BB8-A76F-B5AFC3A42DCF@comcast.net> I have a Biomation K100D along with its parts buddy available for pickup at 85704 (or 85003 in the near future). The unit worked the last time I used it and has a TTL probe set (K100/32). The parts buddy has a sick power supply. Shipping is sort of out of the question... On ASun, 15 Aug 2010 02:08:47 -0700, jim s <jws at jwsss.com> wrote: > I know this may be a long stretch, but one almost never sees logic > analyzer pods on ebay, usually someone with the box who is way too proud > of it. > > Here is an auction for some K100D pods, and if you look at the other > auctions there are others, I think. > > Thought I'd pass it along for those interested, since older logic > analyzers are pretty useful for the people on the list. [...] The probe sets for this model are easy to build. I put together a set when I picked up my first box and used it with PICK micros when I was inflicted with that madness. Subsequently I was given the set that accompanies the above unit(s). CRC From jack.rubin at ameritech.net Mon Aug 16 14:20:42 2010 From: jack.rubin at ameritech.net (Jack Rubin) Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 12:20:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: looking for monitor and cable for DECmate II In-Reply-To: <m1Ol4Bx-000J48C@p850ug1> References: <m1Ol4Bx-000J48C@p850ug1> Message-ID: <561451.84649.qm@web83703.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Thank you! ----- Original Message ---- > From: Tony Duell <ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk> > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Cc: jack.rubin at ameritech.net > Sent: Mon, August 16, 2010 1:13:42 PM > Subject: Re: looking for monitor and cable for DECmate II > > > > > I just acquired a nice DECMate II but it lacks monitor and cable. Can = > > anyone > > help me with a VR201 monitor (shared with Rainbow and DEC Pro series) = > > and/or > > the special DA-15 cable which provides both video and keyboard = > > connection to > > the main box. > > > > Please reply directly offlist. > > I've sent a copy to you off-list, but I see no reason why this shouldn't > be discussed on the list too. > > The VR201 is a farily standard TV-rate (RS-170) composite video monitor. > The only odd features relate to the DA15 connector -- it has no internal > PSU (it gets 12V DC over this connector) and it includes the keyboard > socket (simply connected to pins on the DA15) > > Therefore, it's not hard to make up a cable to use any standard composite > video monitor. I'll include the notes I made on the 'universal Rainbow > video cable' which is overkill for you (it includes the colour monitor > sockets too, which won't work AFAIN without a colour video option PCB). > If you just wire up the keeyboard socket (a 4-pin modular socket) to the > DA15 and a suitable coaxial (RCA phone or BNC) to monochrome ouptu on > the DA15, it should work fine. > > That is, wire the keybaord to pins 6, 8, 14, 15 and the monitor to 12 > (signale) and 4 (ground) > > -tony > > A universal DEC Rainbow video cable > ----------------------------------- > > This cable allows almost all possible monitor combinations to be used > with the Rainbow (see below). > > Connections : > ------------- > > Rainbow end (DA15-S) > > 1 >----------+---------+-- Blue Gnd > 9 >-------O---------O-- Blue > 2 >----------+---------+-- Green Gnd > 10 >-------O---------O-- Green > 3 >----------+---------+-- Red Gnd > 11 >-------O---------O-- Red > 4 >----------+---------+-- Mono Gnd > 12 >-------O---------O-- Mono > 5 >----+ > 13 >-+ +------------ Power Gnd > 6 >----------+------------ Key Gnd > 14 >-------------------- From Key > 7 >----------------------- Power 12V > 15 >-------------------- To Key > 8 >----------------------- Key 12V > > > > Box-mounted connectors : > > VR201 (DA15-P) > > 1 o > 9 o > 2 o > 10 o > 3 o > 11 o > 4 o-----------+--------+--- Mono Gnd > 12 o--------O--------O--- Mono > 5 o-------+---------------- Power Gnd > 13 o | > 6 o-------+---------------- Key Gnd > 14 o--------------------- From Key > 7 o------------------------ Power 12V > 15 o--------------------- To Key > 8 o------------------------ Key 12V > > Monitor BNCs : > > Red > ( o )--------- Red Gnd > | > +----------- Red > > Green > ( o )--------- Green Gnd > | > +----------- Green > > Blue > ( o )--------- Blue Gnd > | > +----------- Blue > > Mono > ( o )--------- Mono Gnd > | > +----------- Mono > > > LK201 keyboard (RJ11-- front face view) > > ------- > | | > ----- ----- > | | > | | > | | > -- ^ ^ ^ ^-- > | | | | > From Key -----+ | | +----- To Key > Key 12V----------+ +-------- Key Gnd > > > Components : > ------------ > > DA15S socket + hood (to fit Rainbow video connector) > > DA15P plug + jackposts (for VR201 connection) > > 4 off 75 Ohm BNC sockets (for monitor connections). You could use other > connectors, like RCA phono, but BNC are standard. > > RJ11 socket, chassis mounting (for LK201 keyboard). Chassis mounting > sockets of this type are very hard to find. I ended up making a bracket > to clamp a PCB-mounting one to the panel > > Metal box of a suitable size to hold the above connectors (apart from the > DA15S). > > 1m cable. At least 4 75 Ohm screened cores and 6 single wires. I used a > 'unversal SCART cable' which has 6 75 ohm screened cores (I simply > ignored 2 of them), a 4 way screened cable (I used this for the 4 > keyboard connections) and 4 other wires (2 in parallel for each of Power > 12V and Power Gnd). > > > Possible monitor combinations : > ------------------------------- > 1) VR201 only > This is pretty useless, but you can connect a VR201 mono monitor using > the DEC lead to the DA15P on the box. Connect the LK201 keyboard to > either the VR201 or the RJ11 on the box. > > 2) Standard composite mono monitor > Connect monitor input to 'mono' BNC on the box. Connect LK201 to the RJ11 > on the box. This works just like a VR201, but you can use any monitor > > 3) VR201 and separate mono graphics monitor > Connect VR201 to DA15P. Connect LK201to either RJ11 on the box or to > VR201. Connect second (composite) monitor to the 'green' BNC. You can use > the dual monitor driver for GSX and have text on the VR201 and graphics on > the second monitor > > 4) Two composite mono monitors > Connect one to 'mono' BNC, other to 'green' BNC. Connect LK201 to RJ11 on > box. Using the dual monitor driver, you get text on the first monitor and > graphics on the second monitor > > 5) RGB (sync-on-green) colour monitor (e.g. VR241) > Connect monitor inputs to BNCs as follows : > Red - Red > Green - Mono > Blue - Blue. > Connect LK201 to RJ11 on box. This gives the standard DEC color monitor > connections giving green text and colour graphics using the colour > monitor driver > > 6) RGB monitor and VR201 > Connect VR201 to DA15P on box. Connect LK201 to RJ11 on box. Connect > color monitor as follows > Red - Red > Green - Green > Blue - Blue > This gives separate text and colour graphics displays when used with the > dual monitor driver > > 7) RGB monitor and composite mono monitor > Connect mono monitor input to 'mono' BNC. Connect LK201 to RJ11. Connect > colour monitor as follows > Red - Red > Green - Green > Blue - Blue > This gives separate text and colour graphics displays when used with the > dual monitor driver > > From schoedel at kw.igs.net Mon Aug 16 14:33:46 2010 From: schoedel at kw.igs.net (schoedel at kw.igs.net) Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 15:33:46 -0400 Subject: [gopher] OT: Anyone interested in text editor programming? (fwd) In-Reply-To: <201008161842.o7GIgi1i018306@floodgap.com> References: <CC28F43ED4708D489ABCF68D06D7F556040A5CC9E5@505DENALI.corp.vnw.com> from Rich Alderson at Message-ID: <20100816192137.M85059@kw.igs.net> > > Further, the code he is publishing *AND PUTTING UNDER LICENSE* belongs to > > someone else, someone with whom he states he has not been able to contact. > > That is so far from OK that I am surprised that I'm the only one who has > > had anything to say about it (in public?). > > That's a valid point, I didn't notice that myself. I'll mention that > to him. You might also mention that the *author* of that version *already has* a sourceforge project for it, <http://videoteco.sourceforge.net/>, which is not terribly hard to find. -- Kevin Schoedel <schoedel at kw.igs.net> VA3TCS From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Mon Aug 16 15:04:16 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 17:04:16 -0300 Subject: EPROM programming (27c160's) References: <m1Ol3z0-000J3xC@p850ug1> Message-ID: <0dc901cb3d7e$579d95b0$0600000a@portajara> > I am puzzled... This was sent personally to me, but I don;t see how I > could make use of the product described. I don't have a Windows machine Maybe not the product, but surely the information The link I sent you has the schematic and sources of the software used with the programmer. It is an easy to build programmer, which uses the parallel port for comms and has some timmings configured and executed in hardware, so it is easy to adapt to anything that has a parallel port. Maybe you could use the info and adapt the software (which is tailored for windows, but has all the info how to drive the programmer) to run in a vax or anything you feel like :o) From brain at jbrain.com Mon Aug 16 19:34:14 2010 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 19:34:14 -0500 Subject: [gopher] OT: Anyone interested in text editor programming? (fwd) In-Reply-To: <201008161842.o7GIgi1i018306@floodgap.com> References: <201008161842.o7GIgi1i018306@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <4C69D906.3040808@jbrain.com> On 8/16/2010 1:42 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> >> ruined). Nick does not appear to have asked in any of these fora about the >> existence of video-friendly TECO implementations. >> > But must he? I'm sure there are billions of Commodore-related outlets that > I don't know about. > I think he should at least perform a cursory online search: http://www.google.com/search?q=Video+TECO provides a link the Sourceforge web site for the files (http://sourceforge.net/projects/videoteco/files/) off of one of the first few links. Now, it appears the same source is hosted twice on SF.net. >> Further, the code he is publishing *AND PUTTING UNDER LICENSE* belongs to >> someone else, someone with whom he states he has not been able to contact. >> That is so far from OK that I am surprised that I'm the only one who has >> had anything to say about it (in public?). >> > That's a valid point, I didn't notice that myself. I'll mention that to him. > > I think this is a larger point. Merely rehosting the files is potentially wasteful, but no worse (all things considered) than mirroring files. The act of re-releasing it under a new license (I'm assuming Paul did not originally release under the SleepyCat license) carries some legal implications if the "currently enlist[ed] developers" modify code thinking they are working under one license, and then later find out the code was not licensed under that license. I can understand your point, though. I doubt Nick meant to run afoul of so many specifics by doing this. He's no doubt just excited he found an important part of history. Still, I think he needs to understand the issues and the realities of open source licensing. Maybe you can lightly relate the issues and help him address the potential hosting duplication and the licensing issues. Jim -- Jim Brain, Brain Innovations (X) brain at jbrain.com Dabbling in WWW, Embedded Systems, Old CBM computers, and Good Times! Home: http://www.jbrain.com From marvin at west.net Mon Aug 16 21:07:29 2010 From: marvin at west.net (Marvin Johnston) Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 19:07:29 -0700 Subject: Since when are magazines so expensive? Message-ID: <4C69EEE1.9050509@west.net> curt at atarimuseum.com> wrote: > Been happening a lot lately, I'm even seeing common PC mags from > the 80's being offered for higher then they should prices... I was checking some pricing for the original PE Altair issues, and my eyes started to water when I saw them for about $1600 or so. I didn't check to see the number of bidders, but there were another batch of auctions after that where they were selling for $600 - $800 or so. Marvin From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Mon Aug 16 22:06:14 2010 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 20:06:14 -0700 Subject: Mostly OT: Looking for Manual/Schematic for Wavetek 1901C Message-ID: <4C69FCA6.9070506@mail.msu.edu> Snagged a Wavetek 1901C last week. This is a 12" oscilloscope display (X/Y+intensity input), I was hoping to use it as a point-plotting/vector display for a couple of little computer projects of mine. (Or maybe just hooking an Asteroids board up to it... :). It's in pretty good shape (has more screen burn than I think I've ever seen in a few spots, though.) I fixed a couple of cold solder joints and it's now mostly working, except something appears to be going slightly wrong in the Y deflection or amplification (it's getting clipped/distorted depending on the gain and input intensity). Anyone have a service manual or schematic for this thing or know good sources for such things? Thanks as always... Josh From csquared3 at tx.rr.com Mon Aug 16 12:22:11 2010 From: csquared3 at tx.rr.com (Charlie Carothers) Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 12:22:11 -0500 Subject: OT - sort of In-Reply-To: <m1OjyqF-000J4CC@p850ug1> References: <m1OjyqF-000J4CC@p850ug1> Message-ID: <4C6973C3.30102@tx.rr.com> Tony Duell wrote: >> My bad! The combination of poor quality text and my 71 year old eyes >> did me in again. :-) My daughter says if you turn it "just so" the Ms. >> Pac-Man copyright date does look like 1960, but it is actually 1980. > > OK, that makes more sense. > >> Yep, that makes a lot more sense. In 1960 I suppose about the only >> thing to play a computer game on would have been either a mini or a >> mainframe - actually I think it would have had to be a mainframe. Based >> on a *very* quick web search, the first PDP-8 shipped in 1964, so if >> that was the first mini... Some might say the IBM 1620, introduced in >> 1959, was a mini but I think that is a stretch. > > THe PDP1 was around in the very early 1960s IIRC. And Spacewar, of > course, ran on it. I would class that machine as a mini, but others may not. > > -tony > > I did not even know there *was* a PDP-1, which is not surprising I guess as it appears only about 50 were made. Various web sites give dates of 1959/60/61 for its production start. I of course found several interesting web sites about that machine, including http://pdp-1.computerhistory.org/pdp-1/ which I want to browse through in more detail. (Why do people insist on using dark gray characters on a light gray background??? Arrgggghhh!) From the pictures I've seen so far of the PDP-1, it does appear to be rather large to fit my mental image of a mini, FWIW (not much). In some ways I'm reminded of the SDS-910 which I believe was a bit smaller and I sort of always thought of as a "midi". Whatever that is... Later, Charlie C. From snhirsch at gmail.com Mon Aug 16 06:43:06 2010 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 07:43:06 -0400 (EDT) Subject: EPROM programming (27c160's) In-Reply-To: <p06240806c88e2859ae7d@[192.168.1.116]> References: <p06240806c88e2859ae7d@[192.168.1.116]> Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008160738050.3268@duo> On Sun, 15 Aug 2010, Mark Tapley wrote: > Tony, > > At 19:37 -0500 8/13/10, Alexandre wrote: >> I think I still have an image of the old site on my desktop, mail me if >> you want that > > Alexandre's link, > > http://web.archive.org/web/20080621113020/http://www.willem.org/ > > points to a page which my machine loads only glacially, apparently because > the server isn't responding fast. > > Meantime, my Googling for "willem programmer" produced this page: > > http://www.sivava.com/ > > which describes a commercially available EPROM programmer. Packages start at > US$39. Many adaptors are available, prices $3 - $70. Driver software appears > to be Windows only (9x - XP). The programmer looks like a single > free-standing circuit board, ~9 IC's plus a lot of sockets including a DIP > ZIF socket. USB power, "DB25" data cable (!). Ah, reading further, there's an > AC/DC power adaptor as well, so I guess you don't need a PC with both USB and > Serial. A word of warning about the sivava programmer: It's a modified Willem unit with its own special software. The developer forked the Willem project and never released his changes. Caused a lot of rancor. Also, forget about technical support. He is glad to take your money, but don't expect any questions or inquiries post-sale to be answered. Finally, the DC-DC converter used to derive Vpp for 21V EPROMs is underdesigned and unlikely to yield reliable results. There was a mod kit available from one of the Willem forum regulars that I ended up installing. All in all, the Sivava was more trouble than it was worth. There are eBay folks selling "genuine" (i.e. unmodified) Willem designs for less money. Steve -- From csquared3 at tx.rr.com Mon Aug 16 17:59:27 2010 From: csquared3 at tx.rr.com (Charlie Carothers) Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 17:59:27 -0500 Subject: PDP-1 movies Message-ID: <4C69C2CF.50503@tx.rr.com> Kind folks, I was just wondering if anyone else is able to view the 3 movies near the bottom of http://pdp-1.computerhistory.org/pdp-1/index.php?f=theme&s=2 For me, each one runs for a bit and then just stops. Windows task manager shows no internet activity at that point. If I bring up some other page and then go back there, the video gets a bit further each time before seizing up again. Perhaps if I had infinite patience I could eventually see them all the way through. Any idea what might cause this? Thanks, Charlie C. From jws at jwsss.com Tue Aug 17 00:03:43 2010 From: jws at jwsss.com (Jim Stephens) Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 22:03:43 -0700 Subject: [gopher] OT: Anyone interested in text editor programming? (fwd) In-Reply-To: <20100816192137.M85059@kw.igs.net> References: <CC28F43ED4708D489ABCF68D06D7F556040A5CC9E5@505DENALI.corp.vnw.com> from Rich Alderson at <20100816192137.M85059@kw.igs.net> Message-ID: <4C6A182F.7070409@jwsss.com> > >>> Further, the code he is publishing *AND PUTTING UNDER LICENSE* belongs to >>> someone else, someone with whom he states he has not been able to contact. >>> That is so far from OK that I am surprised that I'm the only one who has >>> had anything to say about it (in public?). >>> >> That's a valid point, I didn't notice that myself. I'll mention that >> to him. >> > You might also mention that the *author* of that version *already has* a > sourceforge project for it,<http://videoteco.sourceforge.net/>, which is not > terribly hard to find. > > > I was about to complain there were no files, but there are instructions on how to pull the files from cvs. Bad news is that neither of them compiled for me, and both for the same reason. From pontus at Update.UU.SE Tue Aug 17 04:42:54 2010 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 11:42:54 +0200 Subject: PDP-1 movies In-Reply-To: <4C69C2CF.50503@tx.rr.com> References: <4C69C2CF.50503@tx.rr.com> Message-ID: <20100817094254.GA23770@Update.UU.SE> On Mon, Aug 16, 2010 at 05:59:27PM -0500, Charlie Carothers wrote: > Kind folks, > I was just wondering if anyone else is able to view the 3 movies > near the bottom of > http://pdp-1.computerhistory.org/pdp-1/index.php?f=theme&s=2 > For me, each one runs for a bit and then just stops. Windows task > manager shows no internet activity at that point. If I bring up > some other page and then go back there, the video gets a bit further > each time before seizing up again. Perhaps if I had infinite > patience I could eventually see them all the way through. Any idea > what might cause this? > Thanks, > Charlie C. Same here, it stops after about a minute or so. Using firefox, windows vista and a recent version of adobe flash. /P From lproven at gmail.com Tue Aug 17 05:05:19 2010 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 11:05:19 +0100 Subject: OT - sort of In-Reply-To: <4C6973C3.30102@tx.rr.com> References: <m1OjyqF-000J4CC@p850ug1> <4C6973C3.30102@tx.rr.com> Message-ID: <AANLkTimPGui9k9D-uiizgLaA6GsaFK-+-C62hDTFxFi5@mail.gmail.com> On 16 August 2010 18:22, Charlie Carothers <csquared3 at tx.rr.com> wrote: > ?(Why do people insist on using dark gray characters on a light > gray background??? ?Arrgggghhh!) I found that site quite OK, myself, but if such things bother you, use Readability. http://lab.arc90.com/experiments/readability/ -- Liam Proven ? Profile & links: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Tue Aug 17 05:18:40 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 07:18:40 -0300 Subject: EPROM programming (27c160's) References: <p06240806c88e2859ae7d@[192.168.1.116]> <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008160738050.3268@duo> Message-ID: <10c201cb3df7$9c528020$0600000a@portajara> > A word of warning about the sivava programmer: It's a modified Willem > unit with its own special software. The developer forked the Willem > project and never released his changes. Caused a lot of rancor. http://www.py2bbs.qsl.br/willem_pcb45.php Modifying a regular willem for 4.5 software From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Aug 17 08:45:01 2010 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 08:45:01 -0500 Subject: NOS 33 ASR on eBay goes for $2358 Message-ID: <201008171350.o7HDoZa7054152@billY.EZWIND.NET> Forwarded from the Greenkeys list: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=190427439755 - John From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Aug 17 09:15:09 2010 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 09:15:09 -0500 Subject: Tons of tapes and diskpacks for TI-990 computer References: <114682.78276.qm@web110601.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <B3840E0A08AC4B5A91A1F2E8B9913E7A@osa.local> > Allan Frogger in Central California writes: > > "" I have DS5 diskpacks (5 MB) and DS80 diskpacks (80MB) (heavy copper, > 12"? platters, in polycarbonate shells) for a TI 990 computer, as well as > extra terminals with screen and keyboards. > > I also have reel tapes for TI and many 8" floppies, many in original > boxes - they are all functional as I used them on my TI990 system before I > moved. "" > > See pictures here: > http://popbottlecaps.com/temp/ti-990.html > > Contact Allen at <allanfrogger at yahoo.com> if interested I have a TI-900, but it's far down the list of machines I'm going to restore any time soon. As a result, I don't want to speak up for the media above but I hope whoever gets it makes it available at some point! J From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Aug 17 09:39:35 2010 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 09:39:35 -0500 Subject: Some DG 1200 progress Message-ID: <8533152230C141848C9A40294BE7C232@osa.local> I found some appropriate C&K switches (7101 and 7205) in a bin at the local surplus electronics scrap place, $1 each - so I have a usable front panel. This is good because I really didn't want to cannibalize another perfectly good front panel. I also got a jarring reminder when installing them that my soldering skills have degraded over time. Thank god for solder-wyck :) I cleaned up the backplane and all edge connectors with progold, tested out the power supplies, and the machine sprang to life. It would appear that all the bulbs except the LSbit in the address row work, which is good as the bulbs seem pretty unobtanium. I'll keep digging to find a source of spares for the 2176D. The bulbs have no markings on them, but they are fed via an 11v supply. It looks like they are tied to ground via a 1K resistor which I'm guessing is a warming circuit. I do find it rather odd that they are soldered in place instead of socketed, and since the bulbs have no metal at all - just two very thin leads coming right out of the glass - they seem pretty fragile. I can deposit and examine correctly to all 4 cpu registers, but memory is a different story. There are a few spots in memory that I tested (at 100o for the one 8K stack and at 20000o for the other 8K stack) where I can deposit and read back as expected. However, there are a fair number of spots where if I deposit a value, the machine goes into run mode when I hit the deposit switch. Doesn't that sound more like a cpu card issue than memory or front panel? Next task is to try and decipher the documentation for the backplane and the J & P connectors, so I can tell from the schematics where things are supposed to be and where they go. The fun begins! Best, J From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Aug 17 09:44:43 2010 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 07:44:43 -0700 Subject: Tons of tapes and diskpacks for TI-990 computer In-Reply-To: <B3840E0A08AC4B5A91A1F2E8B9913E7A@osa.local> References: <114682.78276.qm@web110601.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <B3840E0A08AC4B5A91A1F2E8B9913E7A@osa.local> Message-ID: <4C6AA05B.4010207@bitsavers.org> On 8/17/10 7:15 AM, Jay West wrote: > I hope whoever gets it makes it available at some point! > Bob Rosenbloom is probably the only person in a position right now to go after these. I have no time/space to do so. From ggs at shiresoft.com Tue Aug 17 11:11:05 2010 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 09:11:05 -0700 Subject: Defcon 18 Message-ID: <89D59703-5A91-4C03-9747-AE9D79D15A3C@shiresoft.com> While not normally of interest, I wanted to let folks know that a friend of mine (and fellow classiccmp'er) was at DefCon again this year. He's been going and taking various classic computers to show off (and get hacked). I received a call from him a week or so before DefCon asking if there was something "interesting" he could take as he didn't want to take the same stuff as last year. I offered up my large PDP-11/40 (3 racks worth...he added a tape drive). It was a hit. He had booted BSD 2.9 and gave out a guest password. He parted with "If you want 'root' you'll have to do that yourself". It was after all a hackers convention. 5 minutes later someone came up with a note with the password on it (they used his ancient Sparc to do a dictionary attack). Pictures of the machines are on Wired site here: http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2010/08/gallery-defcon-18/13/ DefCon's gallery is here: https://pics.defcon.org//showphoto.php?photo=743&title=retro-computing-1&cat=542 TTFN - Guy From legalize at xmission.com Tue Aug 17 11:39:03 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 10:39:03 -0600 Subject: Onyx2 cube Message-ID: <E1OlPBn-0005mf-MG@shell.xmission.com> Picked up an Onyx 2 cube from university surplus today for a lowball bid of $50. Yay! -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com/the-direct3d-graphics-pipeline/> Legalize Adulthood! <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com> From dgahling at hotmail.com Tue Aug 17 11:42:32 2010 From: dgahling at hotmail.com (Dan Gahlinger) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 12:42:32 -0400 Subject: Onyx2 cube In-Reply-To: <E1OlPBn-0005mf-MG@shell.xmission.com> References: <E1OlPBn-0005mf-MG@shell.xmission.com> Message-ID: <BLU139-W25029DA6E84E88C266FB0AC99C0@phx.gbl> I have one sitting here for $75 plus shipping if anyone wants it. or pickup if you liike in toronto > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > From: legalize at xmission.com > Subject: Onyx2 cube > Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 10:39:03 -0600 > > Picked up an Onyx 2 cube from university surplus today for a lowball > bid of $50. > > Yay! > -- > "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download > <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com/the-direct3d-graphics-pipeline/> > > Legalize Adulthood! <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com> From cclist at sydex.com Tue Aug 17 11:52:48 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 09:52:48 -0700 Subject: EPROM programming (27c160's) In-Reply-To: <10c201cb3df7$9c528020$0600000a@portajara> References: <p06240806c88e2859ae7d@[192.168.1.116]>, <10c201cb3df7$9c528020$0600000a@portajara> Message-ID: <4C6A5BF0.11077.67291E@cclist.sydex.com> On 17 Aug 2010 at 7:18, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > > > A word of warning about the sivava programmer: It's a modified > > Willem unit with its own special software. The developer forked the > > Willem project and never released his changes. Caused a lot of > > rancor. > > http://www.py2bbs.qsl.br/willem_pcb45.php > > Modifying a regular willem for 4.5 software On the subject, does anyone have any experience with the Genius G540? It claims to be able to program GALs as well as (E)EPROMs and there's a 16-bit adapter for it. The price is very attractive. --Chuck From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Aug 17 12:37:04 2010 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 12:37:04 -0500 Subject: Some DG 1200 progress References: <8533152230C141848C9A40294BE7C232@osa.local> Message-ID: <F18A821F4C874AB6AA039168F6EF9575@osa.local> Christian wrote.... >Yep. Each lamp draws about 10ma in order to keep them warm and to avoid >large surge currents when they're driven on. The supply should actually be >15V unfiltered and unregulated coming directly off a bridge, not 11V. Ok, I'm confused then. The schematics (and the theory of operation verbiage {long}) all clearly state 11v for the lamps. Is it possible you're thinking nova 2 or 3 or some other model? The schematics and technical manual I have specifically state nova 800/1200. This system in particular is a 1230. And I had written.... > I can deposit and examine correctly to all 4 cpu registers, but memory is > a different story. There are a few spots in memory that I tested (at 100o > for the one 8K stack and at 20000o for the other 8K stack) where I can > deposit and read back as expected. However, there are a fair number of > spots where if I deposit a value, the machine goes into run mode when I > hit the deposit switch. Doesn't that sound more like a cpu card issue than > memory or front panel? To which Christian replied.... >It's decidedly not memory. It *may* be a CPU issue but it actually sounds >more like a noisy bus (i.e., no terminator) or a wonky front panel. .......... >Do you have anything in the topmost slot of the chassis? If not, do you >have a bus terminator installed on the big-ass connector on the back of the >machine? This is less of an issue for a short chassis, but a jumbo will >pretty much do entirely random things without the bus having some sort of >termination on it, particularly with respect to the front panel. Well, funny you should mention that. I definitely plowed into this machine before really digesting all the docs in detail, and am not familiar with the termination setup. This machine had cpu in slot 1, dg 8K in slot 2, cassette I/O in slot 3, a plessy 8K board in slot 4, and then at the very top (slot 17) had a home brew interface (using one of the DG prototyping boards). I left that board out, was trying to start with as small of a setup as possible. From the sounds of it, I really need to look up the termination requirements/methods :) J From legalize at xmission.com Tue Aug 17 12:52:47 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 11:52:47 -0600 Subject: Onyx2 cube In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 17 Aug 2010 12:42:32 -0400. <BLU139-W25029DA6E84E88C266FB0AC99C0@phx.gbl> Message-ID: <E1OlQL9-0002ZZ-3x@shell.xmission.com> In article <BLU139-W25029DA6E84E88C266FB0AC99C0 at phx.gbl>, Dan Gahlinger <dgahling at hotmail.com> writes: > I have one sitting here for $75 plus shipping if anyone wants it. > or pickup if you liike > > in toronto Yeah. Shipping from Toronto is a lot more expensive than driving up to the University and loading it in the back of my car :-). BTW, what graphics does yours have? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com/the-direct3d-graphics-pipeline/> Legalize Adulthood! <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com> From RichA at vulcan.com Tue Aug 17 13:24:50 2010 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 11:24:50 -0700 Subject: PDP-1 as minicomputer [was RE: OT - sort of] In-Reply-To: <m1OjyqF-000J4CC@p850ug1> References: <4C64B16E.4030905@tx.rr.com> from "Charlie Carothers" at Aug 12, 10 09:43:58 pm <m1OjyqF-000J4CC@p850ug1> Message-ID: <CC28F43ED4708D489ABCF68D06D7F556040A5CC9EA@505DENALI.corp.vnw.com> From: Tony Duell Sent: Friday, August 13, 2010 11:19 AM >> Yep, that makes a lot more sense. In 1960 I suppose about the only >> thing to play a computer game on would have been either a mini or a >> mainframe - actually I think it would have had to be a mainframe. Based >> on a *very* quick web search, the first PDP-8 shipped in 1964, so if >> that was the first mini... Some might say the IBM 1620, introduced in >> 1959, was a mini but I think that is a stretch. > THe PDP1 was around in the very early 1960s IIRC. And Spacewar, of > course, ran on it. I would class that machine as a mini, but others may not. AFAICT, the first customer delivery was in 1960. Spacewar! (the exclamation point is part of the name) was of course *written* for the PDP-1 at the MIT AI Lab. At the time of its introduction, the PDP-1 was not a minicomputer. It was capable of addressing up to 64K of 18-bit words; even the base configuration with 4K is the equivalent of a 12K IBM 1401 in memory capacity, and the full 64K is the equivalent of the 32K of 36-bit words available in an IBM 704x or 709x system. What set the PDP-1 apart was that it was intended as an interactive system, with the user seated at the console. (DEC continued this focus in the 18-bit product line until the introduction of RSX on the PDP-15/76 (prior to the port to the PDP-11 family).) In this regard, it is more similar to the IBM 1130 (introduced in 1965, as the PDP-7 was sweeping into labs everywhere) than to the contemporary batch-oriented computers. Arguing that anything before the PDP-8 was a "minicomputer" is revisionism. IMAO. Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.PDPplanet.org/ http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Aug 17 13:35:18 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 14:35:18 -0400 Subject: PDP-1 as minicomputer [was RE: OT - sort of] In-Reply-To: <CC28F43ED4708D489ABCF68D06D7F556040A5CC9EA@505DENALI.corp.vnw.com> References: <4C64B16E.4030905@tx.rr.com> <m1OjyqF-000J4CC@p850ug1> <CC28F43ED4708D489ABCF68D06D7F556040A5CC9EA@505DENALI.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <AANLkTiktTn8Jc9xtPLjoFGCAh1bYKQKGK+7Dsy8=3SJF@mail.gmail.com> Remember the forbidden words when dealing with the history of invention and technology: "first" "last" "only" "always" "never" -- Will From legalize at xmission.com Tue Aug 17 15:25:47 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 14:25:47 -0600 Subject: PDP-1 as minicomputer [was RE: OT - sort of] In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 17 Aug 2010 11:24:50 -0700. <CC28F43ED4708D489ABCF68D06D7F556040A5CC9EA@505DENALI.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <E1OlSjD-0001Qr-QC@shell.xmission.com> In article <CC28F43ED4708D489ABCF68D06D7F556040A5CC9EA at 505DENALI.corp.vnw.com>, Rich Alderson <RichA at vulcan.com> writes: > Arguing that anything before the PDP-8 was a "minicomputer" is revisionism. > IMAO. I haven't been following this thread. What distinguishes a minicomputer from the PDP-1? Is it the multiuser capability? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com/the-direct3d-graphics-pipeline/> Legalize Adulthood! <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com> From wmaddox at pacbell.net Tue Aug 17 15:37:39 2010 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 13:37:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: PDP-1 as minicomputer [was RE: OT - sort of] In-Reply-To: <CC28F43ED4708D489ABCF68D06D7F556040A5CC9EA@505DENALI.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <123677.70374.qm@web82606.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- On Tue, 8/17/10, Rich Alderson <RichA at vulcan.com> wrote: > Arguing that anything before the PDP-8 was a "minicomputer" > is revisionism. > IMAO. The PDP-8 is probably as good a place as any to demarcate the beginnings of the minicomputer. It was apparently the machine for which the term "minicomputer" was coined. Prior to the PDP-8, however, there was a recognizable class of "small" scientifically-oriented computers with shorter word lengths than their mainframe-class brethren, lower cost, and typically used in small configurations, e.g., SDS 910/920, 3C DDP-24, DEC-PDP1/PDP4, and even smaller serial-memory machines like the Recomp II, Packard-Bell 250, Bendix G-15, and the LGP-30. --Bill From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Aug 17 15:50:52 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 16:50:52 -0400 Subject: PDP-1 as minicomputer [was RE: OT - sort of] In-Reply-To: <E1OlSjD-0001Qr-QC@shell.xmission.com> References: <CC28F43ED4708D489ABCF68D06D7F556040A5CC9EA@505DENALI.corp.vnw.com> <E1OlSjD-0001Qr-QC@shell.xmission.com> Message-ID: <AANLkTi=RENp1PERbsgCgZg4nkHWqPOVKpaqmROydrTqR@mail.gmail.com> On 8/17/10, Richard <legalize at xmission.com> wrote: > > In article > <CC28F43ED4708D489ABCF68D06D7F556040A5CC9EA at 505DENALI.corp.vnw.com>, > Rich Alderson <RichA at vulcan.com> writes: > >> Arguing that anything before the PDP-8 was a "minicomputer" is >> revisionism. >> IMAO. > > I haven't been following this thread. What distinguishes a > minicomputer from the PDP-1? Is it the multiuser capability? I'm a bit curious about the working definition, too. I'm by no means an expert, but I would have thought that a machine that fell into the "minicomputer" category would be based on its size and cost substantially below (like 80-90% below) a mainframe, and interactive vs batch as the primary method of use. Single-user vs multi-user is not a defining element IMO. PDP-8s and PDP-11s were both available in single-user and multi-user configurations (though multi-user PDP-11s were more ordinary). Leaving out VLSI machines of the 1970s ("micros") and focusing on the 1960s, I'd say that definition easily includes the PDP-8, about which I think there is little dissent. I personally would have included the PDP-1 as well - to me, it's "small" (4 cabinets plus peripherals?), meant to be used interactively, and (relatively) cheap - $120K in 1960 dollars. But it all depends on how you define "minicomputer" as to what specifically falls in the category. -ethan From legalize at xmission.com Tue Aug 17 16:00:20 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 15:00:20 -0600 Subject: PDP-1 as minicomputer [was RE: OT - sort of] In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 17 Aug 2010 16:50:52 -0400. <AANLkTi=RENp1PERbsgCgZg4nkHWqPOVKpaqmROydrTqR@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <E1OlTGe-0002jf-T5@shell.xmission.com> In article <AANLkTi=RENp1PERbsgCgZg4nkHWqPOVKpaqmROydrTqR at mail.gmail.com>, Ethan Dicks <ethan.dicks at gmail.com> writes: > I'm a bit curious about the working definition, too. I'm by no means > an expert, but I would have thought that a machine that fell into the > "minicomputer" category would be based on its size and cost > substantially below (like 80-90% below) a mainframe, and interactive > vs batch as the primary method of use. Single-user vs multi-user is > not a defining element IMO. OK, I'll go along with your definition; it seems more thought out than my stab in the dark. I'd like to hear Rich Alderson's definition though and why he doesn't include the PDP-1. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com/the-direct3d-graphics-pipeline/> Legalize Adulthood! <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com> From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Aug 17 16:21:02 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 17:21:02 -0400 Subject: PDP-1 as minicomputer [was RE: OT - sort of] In-Reply-To: <E1OlTGe-0002jf-T5@shell.xmission.com> References: <AANLkTi=RENp1PERbsgCgZg4nkHWqPOVKpaqmROydrTqR@mail.gmail.com> <E1OlTGe-0002jf-T5@shell.xmission.com> Message-ID: <AANLkTimALAWzmEw2FMkBinMbQPFcsif35EKX0+AcPO08@mail.gmail.com> On 8/17/10, Richard <legalize at xmission.com> wrote: > > In article <AANLkTi=RENp1PERbsgCgZg4nkHWqPOVKpaqmROydrTqR at mail.gmail.com>, > Ethan Dicks <ethan.dicks at gmail.com> writes: > >> ... I'm by no means >> an expert, but I would have thought that a machine that fell into the >> "minicomputer" category would be based on its size and cost... > > OK, I'll go along with your definition; it seems more thought out than > my stab in the dark. My definition is most likely an amalgam of what I was exposed to vis-a-vis minis vs mainframes c. 1980, more than anything else. It's certainly not meant to be the absolute yardstick of what is or is not a mini, but I think it works for all but the edge cases (which is where debate creeps in anyway). > I'd like to hear Rich Alderson's definition though and why he doesn't > include the PDP-1. After reading other reponses in this thread, something I had not considered is what year the term was first applied - that seems to be 1964, give or take, and applied to the PDP-8. So perhaps the PDP-1 was a minicomputer before they had the word for it, but I am far too young to comment if it was then _called_ a minicomputer, after the word was coined. -ethan From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 17 15:34:50 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 21:34:50 +0100 (BST) Subject: OT - sort of In-Reply-To: <4C6973C3.30102@tx.rr.com> from "Charlie Carothers" at Aug 16, 10 12:22:11 pm Message-ID: <m1OlSs6-000J3uC@p850ug1> > I did not even know there *was* a PDP-1, which is not surprising I guess I can't remember just which of the PDP-n series were actually produced, but it's more than the PDP-8 and PDP-11 that most people remember these days. PDP stood for 'Programmed Data Processor'. The machines were not actually claled 'computers' in the early days (for they most certainly were computers), there have been several expllanations as to why.. > far of the PDP-1, it does appear to be rather large to fit my mental > image of a mini, FWIW (not much). In some ways I'm reminded of the It was nto a small machine, that's certan. But it's unclear just what a 'minicomputer' is :-). I believe the PDP1 did not need an air-conditioned room, and that is one criterion for distinguishing a mini from a mainframe. As an aside, the only machines I _know_ to be minicomputers are the Philips P800 series. They say 'Minicomputer' on the front panel :-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 17 15:40:01 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 21:40:01 +0100 (BST) Subject: Biomation K100D Logic Analyzers (Was: Logic analyzer pods) In-Reply-To: <A637A09B-1C05-4BB8-A76F-B5AFC3A42DCF@comcast.net> from "CRC" at Aug 16, 10 12:20:17 pm Message-ID: <m1OlSx8-000J3xC@p850ug1> [K100D pods] > > The probe sets for this model are easy to build. I put together a set = > when I picked up my first box and used it with PICK micros when I was = > inflicted with that madness. Subsequently I was given the set that = > accompanies the above unit(s). The interface to the K100D is simple, and docuemtned. Physically there's a 50 pin microribbon connector (unconventionally the plug is on the instrument and the socket on the cable), for each set of 10 inputs (one carreis 8 data channels, clock and clock qualifier, the other 8 data channels and 2 trigger qualifiers). Each channel takes up 5 pins of the connecotr -- groud, -5.2V, an analogue threshold control signal and a differential ECL signal pair, the singal for that chaneel. Note there is no +5V on this connector, but there's a 3 pin Lemo socket on the back of the instrument (maybe a pair of them) which carries +5V, ground, -5.2V. Making the original pods, with variable thresholds is not trivial (although there is a schematic in some versiosn fo the manual). But making a TTL-only unit is a lot easier, and that's all you need for a lot of applications. I did that to mine. Used 74F244 buffers and 10124 TTL-ECL translators IIRC. I had to take power from that Lemo socket, of course. It's not totally trivial to build, since you need to make sure that the pod doesn't introduce glitches that the analyser will detect (even if you only intend to use it on slow signals). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 17 15:45:02 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 21:45:02 +0100 (BST) Subject: EPROM programming (27c160's) In-Reply-To: <0dc901cb3d7e$579d95b0$0600000a@portajara> from "Alexandre Souza - Listas" at Aug 16, 10 05:04:16 pm Message-ID: <m1OlT20-000J43C@p850ug1> > > > I am puzzled... This was sent personally to me, but I don;t see how I > > could make use of the product described. I don't have a Windows machine > > Maybe not the product, but surely the information Possibly, although EPROM programming is not normally that difficult... I built my first EPROM programmer many years ago. It did 2716-27128 chips, it emulated as well. And it had a serial interface. All done in TTL and a dumb UART -- I couldn't use any programmed devices or even a microprocesosr (it would need some kind of firmware device) as I had nothing to program them on. The problem, as I have said before, is all the other programmable devices... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 17 16:32:53 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 22:32:53 +0100 (BST) Subject: Some DG 1200 progress In-Reply-To: <8533152230C141848C9A40294BE7C232@osa.local> from "Jay West" at Aug 17, 10 09:39:35 am Message-ID: <m1OlTmD-000J4HC@p850ug1> > I cleaned up the backplane and all edge connectors with progold, tested = > out the power supplies, and the machine sprang to life. It would appear = > that all the bulbs except the LSbit in the address row work, which is = > good as the bulbs seem pretty unobtanium. I'll keep digging to find a = > source of spares for the 2176D. The bulbs have no markings on them, but = > they are fed via an 11v supply. It looks like they are tied to ground = > via a 1K resistor which I'm guessing is a warming circuit. I do find it = > rather odd that they are soldered in place instead of socketed, and = > since the bulbs have no metal at all - just two very thin leads coming = > right out of the glass - they seem pretty fragile. Wire-ended bulbs are not uncommon, and are still available new. My guess is that if this is an 11V supply then the bulbs are at least 12V, and posisbly 14V. You would want to underrun them to get a long life, and they will be plenty bright enough. Now for the first trick that I would use. Connect a milliammeter across the 1k resistor for a working bulb (machine on, of course, but with that bulb turnd off my the machine, so if it's an address indicator, have a 0 in that bit of the address register). The bulb should like to the normal brightness, powered via the milliammeter. Note the current reading. This will give a good idea of the sort of rated bulb current you are looking for (filamament lamps aporoximate a constant current load fairly well). So if you find it's, say, 50mA, you would look down the lists for 12V 50mA nr 14V 50mA bulbs. Get a few and try them... I can't, alas, help further, I have a Nova 1210, but alas it's mising the front panel PCB. I found it in bits in a skip (dumpster) and rescued all I could find (chassis, front panel bezel, CPU, core memeory and a couple of non-DG itnerface cards). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 17 16:06:36 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 22:06:36 +0100 (BST) Subject: Mostly OT: Looking for Manual/Schematic for Wavetek 1901C In-Reply-To: <4C69FCA6.9070506@mail.msu.edu> from "Josh Dersch" at Aug 16, 10 08:06:14 pm Message-ID: <m1OlTMp-000J4CC@p850ug1> > > Snagged a Wavetek 1901C last week. This is a 12" oscilloscope display > (X/Y+intensity input), I was hoping to use it as a point-plotting/vector > display for a couple of little computer projects of mine. (Or maybe > just hooking an Asteroids board up to it... :). It's in pretty good > shape (has more screen burn than I think I've ever seen in a few spots, > though.) I fixed a couple of cold solder joints and it's now mostly > working, except something appears to be going slightly wrong in the Y > deflection or amplification (it's getting clipped/distorted depending on > the gain and input intensity). > > Anyone have a service manual or schematic for this thing or know good > sources for such things? Often the X and Y channels are very similar, if not identical, for obvious reasons. I don;t know how it's constructed, but if you can identify corresponding parts of the X and Y channels, then you might be able to compare signals between them to track down the faulty part. Does this unit use electrostatic or electromagnetic deflection? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 17 16:38:23 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 22:38:23 +0100 (BST) Subject: Some DG 1200 progress In-Reply-To: <F18A821F4C874AB6AA039168F6EF9575@osa.local> from "Jay West" at Aug 17, 10 12:37:04 pm Message-ID: <m1OlTrW-000J4IC@p850ug1> > > Christian wrote.... > >Yep. Each lamp draws about 10ma in order to keep them warm and to avoid > >large surge currents when they're driven on. The supply should actually be > >15V unfiltered and unregulated coming directly off a bridge, not 11V. > Ok, I'm confused then. The schematics (and the theory of operation verbiage > {long}) all clearly state 11v for the lamps. Is it possible you're thinking I wonder... If it's unfiltered (no smoothing cap) from a bridge rectifier, then the ratio of RMS (which is what lamps care about) to peak is sqrt(2). Which means an 11V rms supply is about 15V peak. I would be inclined to put a voltmeter on that supply and see what it reads. I would also stick a 'scope on it, to see if it really is an unfiltered supply. -tony From cclist at sydex.com Tue Aug 17 16:51:25 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 14:51:25 -0700 Subject: PDP-1 as minicomputer [was RE: OT - sort of] In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimALAWzmEw2FMkBinMbQPFcsif35EKX0+AcPO08@mail.gmail.com> References: <AANLkTi=RENp1PERbsgCgZg4nkHWqPOVKpaqmROydrTqR@mail.gmail.com>, <E1OlTGe-0002jf-T5@shell.xmission.com>, <AANLkTimALAWzmEw2FMkBinMbQPFcsif35EKX0+AcPO08@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4C6AA1ED.23394.1788E21@cclist.sydex.com> On 17 Aug 2010 at 17:21, Ethan Dicks wrote: > So perhaps the PDP-1 was a minicomputer before they had the word for > it, but I am far too young to comment if it was then _called_ a > minicomputer, after the word was coined. I've heard the PB250 and the CDC 160A both called "minicomputers"-- both are substantially smaller in size than the PDP-1. So it's a judgement call. My own personal yardstick is that a "minicomputer" is something that can be run from a single 120V 20A lighting circuit. The PB250 qualifies; the 160A does not--and neither does the PDP-1. Others may use their own yardsticks. --Chuck From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Aug 17 16:54:53 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 17:54:53 -0400 Subject: PDP-1 as minicomputer [was RE: OT - sort of] In-Reply-To: <4C6AA1ED.23394.1788E21@cclist.sydex.com> References: <AANLkTi=RENp1PERbsgCgZg4nkHWqPOVKpaqmROydrTqR@mail.gmail.com> <E1OlTGe-0002jf-T5@shell.xmission.com> <AANLkTimALAWzmEw2FMkBinMbQPFcsif35EKX0+AcPO08@mail.gmail.com> <4C6AA1ED.23394.1788E21@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <AANLkTi=L4hDaWSFPyO6k4RKjogB23j153gaDOSGyJyk1@mail.gmail.com> On 8/17/10, Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> wrote: > My own personal yardstick is that a "minicomputer" is something that > can be run from a single 120V 20A lighting circuit. The PB250 > qualifies; the 160A does not--and neither does the PDP-1. Hmm... I'm not sure the Straight-8 qualifies by that yardstick. 30A 120V circuit, no problem. 20A, I'm not as confident. > Others may use their own yardsticks. Indeed. -ethan From dkelvey at hotmail.com Tue Aug 17 17:14:14 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 15:14:14 -0700 Subject: PDP-1 as minicomputer [was RE: OT - sort of] In-Reply-To: <AANLkTi=L4hDaWSFPyO6k4RKjogB23j153gaDOSGyJyk1@mail.gmail.com> References: <AANLkTi=RENp1PERbsgCgZg4nkHWqPOVKpaqmROydrTqR@mail.gmail.com>, <E1OlTGe-0002jf-T5@shell.xmission.com>, <AANLkTimALAWzmEw2FMkBinMbQPFcsif35EKX0+AcPO08@mail.gmail.com>, <4C6AA1ED.23394.1788E21@cclist.sydex.com>, <AANLkTi=L4hDaWSFPyO6k4RKjogB23j153gaDOSGyJyk1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <SNT129-W46023395357A7CC046E8AA39C0@phx.gbl> > Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 17:54:53 -0400 > Subject: Re: PDP-1 as minicomputer [was RE: OT - sort of] > From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > On 8/17/10, Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> wrote: > > My own personal yardstick is that a "minicomputer" is something that > > can be run from a single 120V 20A lighting circuit. The PB250 > > qualifies; the 160A does not--and neither does the PDP-1. > > Hmm... I'm not sure the Straight-8 qualifies by that yardstick. 30A > 120V circuit, no problem. 20A, I'm not as confident. > > > Others may use their own yardsticks. > > Indeed. > > -ethan Hi IBM had a series of small computers they called minis that used water cooling. These where about the size of three standard desk, end-to-end. Dwight From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Aug 17 17:22:06 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 18:22:06 -0400 Subject: PDP-1 as minicomputer [was RE: OT - sort of] In-Reply-To: <SNT129-W46023395357A7CC046E8AA39C0@phx.gbl> References: <AANLkTi=RENp1PERbsgCgZg4nkHWqPOVKpaqmROydrTqR@mail.gmail.com> <E1OlTGe-0002jf-T5@shell.xmission.com> <AANLkTimALAWzmEw2FMkBinMbQPFcsif35EKX0+AcPO08@mail.gmail.com> <4C6AA1ED.23394.1788E21@cclist.sydex.com> <AANLkTi=L4hDaWSFPyO6k4RKjogB23j153gaDOSGyJyk1@mail.gmail.com> <SNT129-W46023395357A7CC046E8AA39C0@phx.gbl> Message-ID: <AANLkTi=7e7EsiL=31Hcgdv3i40voPnsnpomg35oZbL6w@mail.gmail.com> On 8/17/10, dwight elvey <dkelvey at hotmail.com> wrote: > Hi > IBM had a series of small computers they called minis that used > water cooling. These where about the size of three standard desk, > end-to-end. Hmm... of all the judges of "what is a minicomputer", IBM does not rise to the top of my list. My first impulse is to think that someone in marketing decided to go after lost sales by saying "see... we have minicomputers, too". OTOH, I have no knowledge of the machines you are describing, so perhaps, cooling systems aside, by other criteria, they _might_ have passed as minicomputers. While liquid cooling was characteristic of some flavors of mainframes, there were still plenty of air-cooled mainframes, so I wouldn't make that on its own a dividing line. -ethan From legalize at xmission.com Tue Aug 17 17:29:02 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 16:29:02 -0600 Subject: PDP-1 as minicomputer [was RE: OT - sort of] In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 17 Aug 2010 18:22:06 -0400. <AANLkTi=7e7EsiL=31Hcgdv3i40voPnsnpomg35oZbL6w@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <E1OlUeU-0002Bi-HQ@shell.xmission.com> In article <AANLkTi=7e7EsiL=31Hcgdv3i40voPnsnpomg35oZbL6w at mail.gmail.com>, Ethan Dicks <ethan.dicks at gmail.com> writes: > On 8/17/10, dwight elvey <dkelvey at hotmail.com> wrote: > > Hi > > IBM had a series of small computers they called minis that used > > water cooling. These where about the size of three standard desk, > > end-to-end. > > Hmm... of all the judges of "what is a minicomputer", IBM does not > rise to the top of my list. How about Series/1? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com/the-direct3d-graphics-pipeline/> Legalize Adulthood! <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com> From cclist at sydex.com Tue Aug 17 17:39:12 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 15:39:12 -0700 Subject: PDP-1 as minicomputer [was RE: OT - sort of] In-Reply-To: <SNT129-W46023395357A7CC046E8AA39C0@phx.gbl> References: <AANLkTi=RENp1PERbsgCgZg4nkHWqPOVKpaqmROydrTqR@mail.gmail.com>, <AANLkTi=L4hDaWSFPyO6k4RKjogB23j153gaDOSGyJyk1@mail.gmail.com>, <SNT129-W46023395357A7CC046E8AA39C0@phx.gbl> Message-ID: <4C6AAD20.2112.1A44E15@cclist.sydex.com> On 17 Aug 2010 at 15:14, dwight elvey wrote: > IBM had a series of small computers they called minis that used > water cooling. These where about the size of three standard desk, > end-to-end. Is it safe to say that there were no minicomputers called as such before 1960, simply owing the etymology? The BMC Mini auto dates from 1960 or so and the miniskirt, from 1966. With the PDP-1, I wonder if the the "mini" applied more to cost than physical size. --Chuck From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Aug 17 17:42:50 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 18:42:50 -0400 Subject: PDP-1 as minicomputer [was RE: OT - sort of] In-Reply-To: <SNT129-W46023395357A7CC046E8AA39C0@phx.gbl> References: <AANLkTi=RENp1PERbsgCgZg4nkHWqPOVKpaqmROydrTqR@mail.gmail.com> <E1OlTGe-0002jf-T5@shell.xmission.com> <AANLkTimALAWzmEw2FMkBinMbQPFcsif35EKX0+AcPO08@mail.gmail.com> <4C6AA1ED.23394.1788E21@cclist.sydex.com> <AANLkTi=L4hDaWSFPyO6k4RKjogB23j153gaDOSGyJyk1@mail.gmail.com> <SNT129-W46023395357A7CC046E8AA39C0@phx.gbl> Message-ID: <AANLkTim89Zubr0o3M_xpbk01fxpZCG1BRfmn9Tv7RbNA@mail.gmail.com> > ?IBM had a series of small computers they called minis that used > water cooling. These where about the size of three standard desk, > end-to-end. What machines were these? -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Aug 17 17:47:33 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 18:47:33 -0400 Subject: PDP-1 as minicomputer [was RE: OT - sort of] In-Reply-To: <AANLkTi=7e7EsiL=31Hcgdv3i40voPnsnpomg35oZbL6w@mail.gmail.com> References: <AANLkTi=RENp1PERbsgCgZg4nkHWqPOVKpaqmROydrTqR@mail.gmail.com> <E1OlTGe-0002jf-T5@shell.xmission.com> <AANLkTimALAWzmEw2FMkBinMbQPFcsif35EKX0+AcPO08@mail.gmail.com> <4C6AA1ED.23394.1788E21@cclist.sydex.com> <AANLkTi=L4hDaWSFPyO6k4RKjogB23j153gaDOSGyJyk1@mail.gmail.com> <SNT129-W46023395357A7CC046E8AA39C0@phx.gbl> <AANLkTi=7e7EsiL=31Hcgdv3i40voPnsnpomg35oZbL6w@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <AANLkTinHeFcO5yLnZCXRLBPaBic9AfFKfOY_qyxZZMo9@mail.gmail.com> > Hmm... of all the judges of "what is a minicomputer", IBM does not > rise to the top of my list. The funny thing is that IBM probably made more minicomputers that anyone else. They made a *lot* of S/36s and early AS/400s. Even if you look at the 1400 line - a grey area machine, certainly - IBM knew how to do volume. Except IBM marketing called them midrange, not minicomputer. -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Aug 17 17:50:55 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 18:50:55 -0400 Subject: PDP-1 as minicomputer [was RE: OT - sort of] In-Reply-To: <E1OlUeU-0002Bi-HQ@shell.xmission.com> References: <AANLkTi=7e7EsiL=31Hcgdv3i40voPnsnpomg35oZbL6w@mail.gmail.com> <E1OlUeU-0002Bi-HQ@shell.xmission.com> Message-ID: <AANLkTi=5hwDMPFjqhobXzRtLja_Q_jDHvC0Fu_+eV-hM@mail.gmail.com> > How about Series/1? There is a classic Data General ad that ran when IBM was introducing the S/1 to "legitimize the minicomputer market". The Data General ad said "The bastards say, welcome". Bruce Ray may be looking for this ad for a scan. -- Will From legalize at xmission.com Tue Aug 17 17:57:38 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 16:57:38 -0600 Subject: PDP-1 as minicomputer [was RE: OT - sort of] In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 17 Aug 2010 18:50:55 -0400. <AANLkTi=5hwDMPFjqhobXzRtLja_Q_jDHvC0Fu_+eV-hM@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <E1OlV6A-0001So-AT@shell.xmission.com> In article <AANLkTi=5hwDMPFjqhobXzRtLja_Q_jDHvC0Fu_+eV-hM at mail.gmail.com>, William Donzelli <wdonzelli at gmail.com> writes: > > How about Series/1? > > There is a classic Data General ad that ran when IBM was introducing > the S/1 to "legitimize the minicomputer market". The Data General ad > said "The bastards say, welcome". > > Bruce Ray may be looking for this ad for a scan. I'd like to see that! :-) -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com/the-direct3d-graphics-pipeline/> Legalize Adulthood! <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com> From dgahling at hotmail.com Tue Aug 17 18:03:22 2010 From: dgahling at hotmail.com (Dan Gahlinger) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 19:03:22 -0400 Subject: Onyx2 cube In-Reply-To: <E1OlQL9-0002ZZ-3x@shell.xmission.com> References: Your message of Tue, 17 Aug 2010 12:42:32 -0400. Message-ID: <BLU139-W34168ED690125866233B11C99C0@phx.gbl> well... It was being used for doppler radar weather forecasting in the US before I picked it up. so I suppose the graphics must be quite good, as to what graphics specifically, I have no idea Dan. > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Onyx2 cube > From: legalize at xmission.com > Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 11:52:47 -0600 > > > In article <BLU139-W25029DA6E84E88C266FB0AC99C0 at phx.gbl>, > Dan Gahlinger <dgahling at hotmail.com> writes: > > > I have one sitting here for $75 plus shipping if anyone wants it. > > or pickup if you liike > > > > in toronto > > Yeah. Shipping from Toronto is a lot more expensive than driving up > to the University and loading it in the back of my car :-). > > BTW, what graphics does yours have? > -- > "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download > <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com/the-direct3d-graphics-pipeline/> > > Legalize Adulthood! <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com> From IanK at vulcan.com Tue Aug 17 18:03:44 2010 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 16:03:44 -0700 Subject: PDP-1 as minicomputer [was RE: OT - sort of] In-Reply-To: <4C6AAD20.2112.1A44E15@cclist.sydex.com> References: <AANLkTi=RENp1PERbsgCgZg4nkHWqPOVKpaqmROydrTqR@mail.gmail.com>, <AANLkTi=L4hDaWSFPyO6k4RKjogB23j153gaDOSGyJyk1@mail.gmail.com>, <SNT129-W46023395357A7CC046E8AA39C0@phx.gbl> <4C6AAD20.2112.1A44E15@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <FF6AB92D97A23A409701CDBF66F03FCD03DC3E6ECD@505fuji> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chuck Guzis > Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2010 3:39 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: RE: PDP-1 as minicomputer [was RE: OT - sort of] > > On 17 Aug 2010 at 15:14, dwight elvey wrote: > > > IBM had a series of small computers they called minis that used > > water cooling. These where about the size of three standard desk, > > end-to-end. > > Is it safe to say that there were no minicomputers called as such > before 1960, simply owing the etymology? The BMC Mini auto dates > from 1960 or so and the miniskirt, from 1966. > > With the PDP-1, I wonder if the the "mini" applied more to cost than > physical size. > This is probably one of the most problematic questions I try to answer, far too often: why is X a minicomputer and not something else? I think of a minicomputer as a machine designed to not require an operator staff, designed for direct interaction between the user and the computer (rather than batch operation), and designed for a *relatively* small resource footprint (the PDP-1 required a LOT less resources than a 7090). There is a lot of fuzz around all of these factors. Is a VAX-11 a minicomputer? It takes three-phase power and was intended to serve as a large timeshared system. There is a mechanism to run batch jobs. There was a role defined for the "system manager" who maintained various aspects of the OS environment. However, at the same time IBM's product line consisted of machines that still cost ten times as much, could NOT be meaningfully maintained without an operations staff and were fundamentally designed for batch processing. The VAX-11 was "mini" by comparison. It is feasible for one person to operate and use a VAX; the question in the context of a VAX-11 is an economic one, not a question of operational overhead. Consider that when IBM transistorized the 709, they did NOT build a smaller computer based on the increased functional density of the transistor. They built a large computer with more capability. In contrast, the PDP-1 was intended to be small enough that it wasn't a perceived economic absurdity for it to be used single-user. For counterpoint, the PDP-10 was never intended to be anything other than a mainframe-class machine. Its capabilities, capacity and footprint all served as direct competition to System/360. So DEC != minicomputer, although they were the leading manufacturer of that class of machine for many years - indeed, until the microcomputer began overshadowing the mini. This is an interesting question, and I hope we can have some meaningful dialogue about it - and maybe even stay on topic. :-) -- Ian From IanK at vulcan.com Tue Aug 17 18:04:55 2010 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 16:04:55 -0700 Subject: PDP-1 as minicomputer [was RE: OT - sort of] In-Reply-To: <AANLkTi=5hwDMPFjqhobXzRtLja_Q_jDHvC0Fu_+eV-hM@mail.gmail.com> References: <AANLkTi=7e7EsiL=31Hcgdv3i40voPnsnpomg35oZbL6w@mail.gmail.com> <E1OlUeU-0002Bi-HQ@shell.xmission.com> <AANLkTi=5hwDMPFjqhobXzRtLja_Q_jDHvC0Fu_+eV-hM@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <FF6AB92D97A23A409701CDBF66F03FCD03DC3E6ECE@505fuji> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of William Donzelli > Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2010 3:51 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: PDP-1 as minicomputer [was RE: OT - sort of] > > > How about Series/1? > > There is a classic Data General ad that ran when IBM was introducing > the S/1 to "legitimize the minicomputer market". The Data General ad > said "The bastards say, welcome". > > Bruce Ray may be looking for this ad for a scan. > > -- > Will I'm almost certain I've seen that ad, which either means (a) Bruce already has it or (b) I'm older than I realize. -- Ian From dm561 at torfree.net Tue Aug 17 18:13:45 2010 From: dm561 at torfree.net (MikeS) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 19:13:45 -0400 Subject: Onyx2 cube References: <mailman.43.1282086233.1006.cctalk@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <B48FD3B73EAD4FD592DFDAA631AC7CF3@vl420mt> Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 11:52:47 -0600 From: Richard <legalize at xmission.com> Subject: Re: Onyx2 cube In article <BLU139-W25029DA6E84E88C266FB0AC99C0 at phx.gbl>, Dan Gahlinger <dgahling at hotmail.com> writes: > I have one sitting here for $75 plus shipping if anyone wants it. > or pickup if you liike > > in toronto Yeah. Shipping from Toronto is a lot more expensive than driving up to the University and loading it in the back of my car :-). ---------------- Well, for you maybe; unfortunately I'm not interested ;-) mike (in Toronto) From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Aug 17 18:59:26 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 19:59:26 -0400 Subject: PDP-1 as minicomputer [was RE: OT - sort of] In-Reply-To: <FF6AB92D97A23A409701CDBF66F03FCD03DC3E6ECD@505fuji> References: <AANLkTi=RENp1PERbsgCgZg4nkHWqPOVKpaqmROydrTqR@mail.gmail.com> <AANLkTi=L4hDaWSFPyO6k4RKjogB23j153gaDOSGyJyk1@mail.gmail.com> <SNT129-W46023395357A7CC046E8AA39C0@phx.gbl> <4C6AAD20.2112.1A44E15@cclist.sydex.com> <FF6AB92D97A23A409701CDBF66F03FCD03DC3E6ECD@505fuji> Message-ID: <AANLkTikjcLsf7rpKztkbDBY7JsCvacszN9XCVS0bb8Tq@mail.gmail.com> > However, at the same time IBM's product line consisted of machines that still cost ten times as much, could NOT be meaningfully maintained without an operations staff and were fundamentally designed for batch processing. Compare apples to oranges - when the VAX-11 line was out, IBM had the 4300 line. These machines were specifically designed not to require operations staff, a big infrastructure, pure batch operation, and so forth. Burroughs had the 1900 line with pretty much the same low maintenance ideas going on. The 4300 line was a huge hit for IBM (the 1900 line was so-so for Burroughs). > For counterpoint, the PDP-10 was never intended to be anything other than a mainframe-class machine. ?Its capabilities, capacity and footprint all served as direct competition to System/360. They never managed to get the whole RAS thing right, so the mainframe shops tended not to pay any attention to the PDP-10 line. They did for the VAX, but by then DEC had learned a few things about maintenance and reliability (and power supplies). > So DEC != minicomputer, although they were the leading manufacturer of that class of machine for many years - indeed, until the microcomputer began overshadowing the mini. It is easy for us to think that, in a sort of techie-hacker-academic way, but when the numbers all shake out, IBM may have had the biggest slice of the pie. We just tend to ignore all those beige minicomputers that were doing boring financial jobs in tax accounting shops and such. Anyway, the real answer is a machine is what it is. -- Will From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Aug 17 19:12:18 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 20:12:18 -0400 Subject: PDP-1 as minicomputer [was RE: OT - sort of] In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikjcLsf7rpKztkbDBY7JsCvacszN9XCVS0bb8Tq@mail.gmail.com> References: <AANLkTi=RENp1PERbsgCgZg4nkHWqPOVKpaqmROydrTqR@mail.gmail.com> <AANLkTi=L4hDaWSFPyO6k4RKjogB23j153gaDOSGyJyk1@mail.gmail.com> <SNT129-W46023395357A7CC046E8AA39C0@phx.gbl> <4C6AAD20.2112.1A44E15@cclist.sydex.com> <FF6AB92D97A23A409701CDBF66F03FCD03DC3E6ECD@505fuji> <AANLkTikjcLsf7rpKztkbDBY7JsCvacszN9XCVS0bb8Tq@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4C6B2562.7060908@neurotica.com> On 8/17/10 7:59 PM, William Donzelli wrote: > Compare apples to oranges - when the VAX-11 line was out, IBM had the > 4300 line. These machines were specifically designed not to require > operations staff, a big infrastructure, pure batch operation, and so > forth. Wow, was the 4300 series really intended to not need an operations staff? If so, they sure did miss the mark there. I worked for a company that had a 4341, and frequently visited four customer sites, with three 4341s and a 4381. (I worked in field service at the time, unfortunately not for IBM) I think the smallest operations staff for any of those intended-to-be-operations-staff-free machines was two employees. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From RichA at vulcan.com Tue Aug 17 19:46:03 2010 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 17:46:03 -0700 Subject: PDP-1 as minicomputer [was RE: OT - sort of] In-Reply-To: <E1OlTGe-0002jf-T5@shell.xmission.com> References: Your message of Tue, 17 Aug 2010 16:50:52 -0400. <AANLkTi=RENp1PERbsgCgZg4nkHWqPOVKpaqmROydrTqR@mail.gmail.com> <E1OlTGe-0002jf-T5@shell.xmission.com> Message-ID: <CC28F43ED4708D489ABCF68D06D7F556040A5CC9EE@505DENALI.corp.vnw.com> From: Richard Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2010 2:00 PM > In article <AANLkTi=RENp1PERbsgCgZg4nkHWqPOVKpaqmROydrTqR at mail.gmail.com>, > Ethan Dicks <ethan.dicks at gmail.com> writes: >> I'm a bit curious about the working definition, too. I'm by no means >> an expert, but I would have thought that a machine that fell into the >> "minicomputer" category would be based on its size and cost >> substantially below (like 80-90% below) a mainframe, and interactive >> vs batch as the primary method of use. Single-user vs multi-user is >> not a defining element IMO. > OK, I'll go along with your definition; it seems more thought out than > my stab in the dark. > I'd like to hear Rich Alderson's definition though and why he doesn't > include the PDP-1. It's not so much definitional as historical. (I pretty much agree with Ethan's definition, too.) It's simply that when DEC built the PDP-1, they were simply trying to build a powerful computer as small as they could, based on the experience Olsen and Anderson had with the TX-0 and TX-2 at Lincoln Labs. When DEC built the PDP-8, it was a reimplementation of the PDP-5 which was intentionally shrunk into a half-height package. This led to the designation "minicomputer", where "mini-", as someone suggested, was in the Zeitgeist, but this was done in retrospect. DEC called systems like the PDP-8 "small computers" in its sales literature for many years. There was a new impetus in the design of small computers at every computer company, to shrink the box as much as possible and still do the job. All of Silicon Valley and most of Route 128 saw this as the way to go: Small but powerful, rather than large with increasing functionality. From: Richard Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2010 3:29 PM > In article <AANLkTi=7e7EsiL=31Hcgdv3i40voPnsnpomg35oZbL6w at mail.gmail.com>, > Ethan Dicks <ethan.dicks at gmail.com> writes: >> On 8/17/10, dwight elvey <dkelvey at hotmail.com> wrote: >>> IBM had a series of small computers they called minis that used >>> water cooling. These where about the size of three standard desk, >>> end-to-end. >> Hmm... of all the judges of "what is a minicomputer", IBM does not >> rise to the top of my list. > How about Series/1? The Series/1 was the first entry by IBM into the minicomputer market as such. (It was also their first to use ASCII rather than EBCDIC--no one AFAIK ever *used* ASCII on the 360--which led to its use as the 4994 terminal server, after a Series/1 customer made it clear that it could do the job.) It was a 16-bit machine introduced at a time when companies which had been selling minis for years were moving from 16- to 32-bit "superminis"--most especially the Digital VAX and Data General Eclipse MV. From: Ian King Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2010 4:04 PM >> From: Chuck Guzis >> Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2010 3:39 PM >> With the PDP-1, I wonder if the the "mini" applied more to cost than >> physical size. That's still a retro view of the PDP-1. It was small and inexpensive at its introduction, therefore it must have been a mini? I say, no. > Is a VAX-11 a minicomputer? As someone who was making a living as an applications programmer when the VAX was announced, and who read _The Soul of a New Machine_ when it was serialized in _Computerworld_, I can say for certain that the VAX and its competition were called "superminis" at the time: 32 bit processors, big address spaces, mainframe-class operating systems, etc. The 4300 family from IBM were precisely what they were aiming at. Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.PDPplanet.org/ http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From RichA at vulcan.com Tue Aug 17 20:03:34 2010 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 18:03:34 -0700 Subject: OT - sort of In-Reply-To: <m1OlSs6-000J3uC@p850ug1> References: <4C6973C3.30102@tx.rr.com> from "Charlie Carothers" at Aug 16, 10 12:22:11 pm <m1OlSs6-000J3uC@p850ug1> Message-ID: <CC28F43ED4708D489ABCF68D06D7F556040A5CC9EF@505DENALI.corp.vnw.com> From: Tony Duell Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2010 1:35 PM >> I did not even know there *was* a PDP-1, which is not surprising I guess > I can't remember just which of the PDP-n series were actually produced, > but it's more than the PDP-8 and PDP-11 that most people remember these > days. PDP-1: 18 bits, 1960-1964 PDP-2: 24 bits, paper design, never built PDP-3: 36 bits, one built by a customer (DEC would sell you parts and plans) an extended PDP-1, unrelated to later 36-bit systems PDP-4: 18 bits, 1962-1964; 5/8 the power at 2/3 the price. Not popular. PDP-5: 12 bits, 1962-1964 PDP-6: 36 bits, 1964-1965; 23 built, nearly bankrupted DEC; first commercial system from any manufacturer with timesharing hardware built in from the start; intended for AI research (LISP creator John McCarthy advised on the design) as well as general computing PDP-7: 18 bits, 1964-1966; DEC's most successful model to that time, first use of FlipChips PDP-8: 12 bits, 1965-1967; reimplementation of PDP-5 in FlipChips, first bus architecture from DEC PDP-9: 18 bits, 1966-1969; smaller, faster PDP-7 PDP-10: 36 bits, 1967-1970+; FlipChip implementation of PDP-6 architecture PDP-11: 16 bits, 1969-1990; DEC surrendered to the 8-bit byte IBM disease PDP-12: 12 bits, 1970?; PDP-8/i with additional LINC capabilities PDP-14: build-it-yourself PDP-15: 18 bits, 1970-1975; added index register to PDP-4/7/9 architecture, capable of addressing up to 128K words PDP-16: build-it-yourself They skipped 13, and stopped calling new systems PDP-x. The follow models of the PDP-10 were christened DECsystem-10 and DECSYSTEM-20 (defined at first by the processor, and after a customer revolt by the microcode and OS in the later models). NB: I didn't bother to go look at the exact dates in Bell, McNamara & Mudge. Those are close enough for government work. Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.PDPplanet.org/ http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From RichA at vulcan.com Tue Aug 17 20:12:42 2010 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 18:12:42 -0700 Subject: PDP-1 as minicomputer [was RE: OT - sort of] In-Reply-To: <4C6B2562.7060908@neurotica.com> References: <AANLkTi=RENp1PERbsgCgZg4nkHWqPOVKpaqmROydrTqR@mail.gmail.com> <AANLkTi=L4hDaWSFPyO6k4RKjogB23j153gaDOSGyJyk1@mail.gmail.com> <SNT129-W46023395357A7CC046E8AA39C0@phx.gbl> <4C6AAD20.2112.1A44E15@cclist.sydex.com> <FF6AB92D97A23A409701CDBF66F03FCD03DC3E6ECD@505fuji> <AANLkTikjcLsf7rpKztkbDBY7JsCvacszN9XCVS0bb8Tq@mail.gmail.com> <4C6B2562.7060908@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <CC28F43ED4708D489ABCF68D06D7F556040A5CC9F0@505DENALI.corp.vnw.com> From: Dave McGuire Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2010 5:12 PM > On 8/17/10 7:59 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >> Compare apples to oranges - when the VAX-11 line was out, IBM had the >> 4300 line. These machines were specifically designed not to require >> operations staff, a big infrastructure, pure batch operation, and so >> forth. > Wow, was the 4300 series really intended to not need an operations > staff? If so, they sure did miss the mark there. > I worked for a company that had a 4341, and frequently visited four > customer sites, with three 4341s and a 4381. (I worked in field service > at the time, unfortunately not for IBM) I think the smallest operations > staff for any of those intended-to-be-operations-staff-free machines was > two employees. Ahh, but Dave, the typical IBM mainframe shop required 8-12 operators. >From that point of view, the 4300s were marvels of low operational staff. At the University of Chicago, I was friends with the lead graduate student on the STEM (Scanning Transmission Electron Microscope), the one that made the IBM logo out of individual gold atoms. Their graphics processor was a 4361--and they had no professional operations staff at all. The grad students did the minimal amount to get it running, and that was all. Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.PDPplanet.org/ http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From thomas.gardner at sbcglobal.net Tue Aug 17 20:31:33 2010 From: thomas.gardner at sbcglobal.net (Tom Gardner) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 18:31:33 -0700 Subject: PDP-1 as minicomputer In-Reply-To: <mailman.43.1282086233.1006.cctalk@classiccmp.org> References: <mailman.43.1282086233.1006.cctalk@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <C318597D1B2543DEB5048BC10DF88429@tegp4> The earliest use of the term "minicomputer" is about 1968 (Google news, other sources). FWIW, I also think relatively small physical size was a necessary condition for a computer to be characterized as a minicomputer at least thru the mid 70s. IMHO the IBM 1130 introduced in 1965 is an early if not the first minicomputer. To quote the 1965 IBM announcement: "The desk-sized 1130 is designed for individual use by engineers, scientists and mathematicians. But with its range of peripheral units, the 1130 also will be used in such fields as publishing, construction, finance, manufacturing and distribution." Tom > Message: 3 > Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 11:24:50 -0700 > From: Rich Alderson <RichA at vulcan.com> > Subject: PDP-1 as minicomputer [was RE: OT - sort of] > To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" > <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > Message-ID: > <CC28F43ED4708D489ABCF68D06D7F556040A5CC9EA at 505DENALI.corp.vnw.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > From: Tony Duell > Sent: Friday, August 13, 2010 11:19 AM > > >> Yep, that makes a lot more sense. In 1960 I suppose about the only > >> thing to play a computer game on would have been either a mini or a > >> mainframe - actually I think it would have had to be a mainframe. <snip> > Arguing that anything before the PDP-8 was a "minicomputer" is > revisionism. > IMAO. > > > Rich Alderson <snip> From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Aug 17 20:34:12 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 21:34:12 -0400 Subject: PDP-1 as minicomputer [was RE: OT - sort of] In-Reply-To: <CC28F43ED4708D489ABCF68D06D7F556040A5CC9F0@505DENALI.corp.vnw.com> References: <AANLkTi=RENp1PERbsgCgZg4nkHWqPOVKpaqmROydrTqR@mail.gmail.com> <AANLkTi=L4hDaWSFPyO6k4RKjogB23j153gaDOSGyJyk1@mail.gmail.com> <SNT129-W46023395357A7CC046E8AA39C0@phx.gbl> <4C6AAD20.2112.1A44E15@cclist.sydex.com> <FF6AB92D97A23A409701CDBF66F03FCD03DC3E6ECD@505fuji> <AANLkTikjcLsf7rpKztkbDBY7JsCvacszN9XCVS0bb8Tq@mail.gmail.com> <4C6B2562.7060908@neurotica.com> <CC28F43ED4708D489ABCF68D06D7F556040A5CC9F0@505DENALI.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <AANLkTikV=C83_9yKMmyWaYyP8qMpJjxMEy6yUVqcJ_Jv@mail.gmail.com> > At the University of Chicago, I was friends with the lead graduate student > on the STEM (Scanning Transmission Electron Microscope), the one that made > the IBM logo out of individual gold atoms. ?Their graphics processor was > a 4361--and they had no professional operations staff at all. ?The grad > students did the minimal amount to get it running, and that was all. My 4331 came from a shop that was run by a couple of guys, and was turned off every weekend when they went home. It ran for 25 years and never had a service call. The IMPL diskette (the boot disk media) finally wore out - wore thin from being read every Monday - so to boot the machine, I need to do a song and dance act to fill in some dropped bits. The 3830 disk control also has an IMPL floppy, and that still works, but is well on its way out. That box also never broke down while these guys ran it. The 3420 tape drives were quite reliable, but towards the end, they had to replace hoses that were drying out. The 3350 disks were the most troublesome, but even there 5 of the 8 spindles are fine. And the datacenter had a resident cat. It was not exactly the cleanest computer space I have ever been in. -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Aug 17 20:39:40 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 21:39:40 -0400 Subject: PDP-1 as minicomputer [was RE: OT - sort of] In-Reply-To: <CC28F43ED4708D489ABCF68D06D7F556040A5CC9EE@505DENALI.corp.vnw.com> References: <AANLkTi=RENp1PERbsgCgZg4nkHWqPOVKpaqmROydrTqR@mail.gmail.com> <E1OlTGe-0002jf-T5@shell.xmission.com> <CC28F43ED4708D489ABCF68D06D7F556040A5CC9EE@505DENALI.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <AANLkTim_tB_D0+u+sNwvr6ats+QZD4yb5QXqCE2vJEE_@mail.gmail.com> > The Series/1 was the first entry by IBM into the minicomputer market as > such. 1620? 1130? 1800? S/3? S/32? S/34? > ?(It was also their first to use ASCII rather than EBCDIC--no one > AFAIK ever *used* ASCII on the 360--which led to its use as the 4994 > terminal server, after a Series/1 customer made it clear that it could > do the job.) ?It was a 16-bit machine introduced at a time when companies > which had been selling minis for years were moving from 16- to 32-bit > "superminis"--most especially the Digital VAX and Data General Eclipse MV. S/1s were slow, the operating systems were a disgrace, but they were bulletproof, and could beat the crap out of most other minicomputers when it came to moving data around. This is why the only real win S/1s ever really had was internally at IBM - they were used in various communication boxes and front ends (7171, for example), because they could move data faster than the 3725. They were also used as the processor in the 7361 Fastdraft CAD system. -- Will From cclist at sydex.com Tue Aug 17 20:41:28 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 18:41:28 -0700 Subject: PDP-1 as minicomputer In-Reply-To: <C318597D1B2543DEB5048BC10DF88429@tegp4> References: <mailman.43.1282086233.1006.cctalk@classiccmp.org>, <C318597D1B2543DEB5048BC10DF88429@tegp4> Message-ID: <4C6AD7D8.26459.24B2C96@cclist.sydex.com> On 17 Aug 2010 at 18:31, Tom Gardner wrote: > IMHO the IBM 1130 introduced in 1965 is an early if not the first > minicomputer. To quote the 1965 IBM announcement: "The desk-sized 1130 > is designed for individual use by engineers, scientists and > mathematicians. But with its range of peripheral units, the 1130 also > will be used in such fields as publishing, construction, finance, > manufacturing and distribution." ...but not the 1620? --Chuck From doc at vaxen.net Tue Aug 17 20:46:24 2010 From: doc at vaxen.net (Doc Shipley) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 20:46:24 -0500 Subject: PDP-1 as minicomputer [was RE: OT - sort of] In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikjcLsf7rpKztkbDBY7JsCvacszN9XCVS0bb8Tq@mail.gmail.com> References: <AANLkTi=RENp1PERbsgCgZg4nkHWqPOVKpaqmROydrTqR@mail.gmail.com> <AANLkTi=L4hDaWSFPyO6k4RKjogB23j153gaDOSGyJyk1@mail.gmail.com> <SNT129-W46023395357A7CC046E8AA39C0@phx.gbl> <4C6AAD20.2112.1A44E15@cclist.sydex.com> <FF6AB92D97A23A409701CDBF66F03FCD03DC3E6ECD@505fuji> <AANLkTikjcLsf7rpKztkbDBY7JsCvacszN9XCVS0bb8Tq@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4C6B3B70.7060809@vaxen.net> On 8/17/10 6:59 PM, William Donzelli wrote: > It is easy for us to think that, in a sort of techie-hacker-academic > way, but when the numbers all shake out, IBM may have had the biggest > slice of the pie. We just tend to ignore all those beige minicomputers > that were doing boring financial jobs in tax accounting shops and > such. Heh. That's very true of IBM today, too, with the POWER family and zSeries. Very few people realize how much of the midrange market IBM owns. Doc From legalize at xmission.com Tue Aug 17 20:56:09 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 19:56:09 -0600 Subject: Onyx2 cube In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 17 Aug 2010 19:03:22 -0400. <BLU139-W34168ED690125866233B11C99C0@phx.gbl> Message-ID: <E1OlXsv-0007qB-OP@shell.xmission.com> In article <BLU139-W34168ED690125866233B11C99C0 at phx.gbl>, Dan Gahlinger <dgahling at hotmail.com> writes: > as to what graphics specifically, I have no idea Can you run hinv on it? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com/the-direct3d-graphics-pipeline/> Legalize Adulthood! <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com> From cclist at sydex.com Tue Aug 17 21:20:08 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 19:20:08 -0700 Subject: PDP-1 as minicomputer [was RE: OT - sort of] In-Reply-To: <AANLkTim_tB_D0+u+sNwvr6ats+QZD4yb5QXqCE2vJEE_@mail.gmail.com> References: <AANLkTi=RENp1PERbsgCgZg4nkHWqPOVKpaqmROydrTqR@mail.gmail.com>, <CC28F43ED4708D489ABCF68D06D7F556040A5CC9EE@505DENALI.corp.vnw.com>, <AANLkTim_tB_D0+u+sNwvr6ats+QZD4yb5QXqCE2vJEE_@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4C6AE0E8.9307.26E9151@cclist.sydex.com> On 17 Aug 2010 at 21:39, William Donzelli wrote: > 1620? 1130? 1800? S/3? S/32? S/34? Was the LGP-30 a minicomputer? That's what, 1956? --Chuck From dgahling at hotmail.com Tue Aug 17 21:27:52 2010 From: dgahling at hotmail.com (Dan Gahlinger) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 22:27:52 -0400 Subject: Onyx2 cube In-Reply-To: <E1OlXsv-0007qB-OP@shell.xmission.com> References: Your message of Tue, 17 Aug 2010 19:03:22 -0400. Message-ID: <BLU139-W15D39857668800C95AD9DDC99D0@phx.gbl> its sitting in a corner in my garage, so the answer is no :) > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Onyx2 cube > From: legalize at xmission.com > Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 19:56:09 -0600 > > > In article <BLU139-W34168ED690125866233B11C99C0 at phx.gbl>, > Dan Gahlinger <dgahling at hotmail.com> writes: > > > as to what graphics specifically, I have no idea > > Can you run hinv on it? > -- > "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download > <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com/the-direct3d-graphics-pipeline/> > > Legalize Adulthood! <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com> From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Aug 17 21:31:43 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 22:31:43 -0400 Subject: PDP-1 as minicomputer [was RE: OT - sort of] In-Reply-To: <4C6AE0E8.9307.26E9151@cclist.sydex.com> References: <AANLkTi=RENp1PERbsgCgZg4nkHWqPOVKpaqmROydrTqR@mail.gmail.com> <CC28F43ED4708D489ABCF68D06D7F556040A5CC9EE@505DENALI.corp.vnw.com> <AANLkTim_tB_D0+u+sNwvr6ats+QZD4yb5QXqCE2vJEE_@mail.gmail.com> <4C6AE0E8.9307.26E9151@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <AANLkTimAO2whKwgDjfVV7wqhRweUDDi0qOrCR+zhdg6g@mail.gmail.com> > Was the LGP-30 a minicomputer? ?That's what, 1956? I was pointing out IBM minis that predate the S/1. I forgot S/7 and 3790 (maybe - these came out right around when S/1s came out). -- Will From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Aug 17 21:33:35 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 22:33:35 -0400 Subject: PDP-1 as minicomputer [was RE: OT - sort of] In-Reply-To: <CC28F43ED4708D489ABCF68D06D7F556040A5CC9F0@505DENALI.corp.vnw.com> References: <AANLkTi=RENp1PERbsgCgZg4nkHWqPOVKpaqmROydrTqR@mail.gmail.com> <AANLkTi=L4hDaWSFPyO6k4RKjogB23j153gaDOSGyJyk1@mail.gmail.com> <SNT129-W46023395357A7CC046E8AA39C0@phx.gbl> <4C6AAD20.2112.1A44E15@cclist.sydex.com> <FF6AB92D97A23A409701CDBF66F03FCD03DC3E6ECD@505fuji> <AANLkTikjcLsf7rpKztkbDBY7JsCvacszN9XCVS0bb8Tq@mail.gmail.com> <4C6B2562.7060908@neurotica.com> <CC28F43ED4708D489ABCF68D06D7F556040A5CC9F0@505DENALI.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <4C6B467F.8010103@neurotica.com> On 8/17/10 9:12 PM, Rich Alderson wrote: >>> Compare apples to oranges - when the VAX-11 line was out, IBM had the >>> 4300 line. These machines were specifically designed not to require >>> operations staff, a big infrastructure, pure batch operation, and so >>> forth. > >> Wow, was the 4300 series really intended to not need an operations >> staff? If so, they sure did miss the mark there. > >> I worked for a company that had a 4341, and frequently visited four >> customer sites, with three 4341s and a 4381. (I worked in field service >> at the time, unfortunately not for IBM) I think the smallest operations >> staff for any of those intended-to-be-operations-staff-free machines was >> two employees. > > Ahh, but Dave, the typical IBM mainframe shop required 8-12 operators. >>From that point of view, the 4300s were marvels of low operational staff. Point taken. ;) > At the University of Chicago, I was friends with the lead graduate student > on the STEM (Scanning Transmission Electron Microscope), the one that made > the IBM logo out of individual gold atoms. Their graphics processor was > a 4361--and they had no professional operations staff at all. The grad > students did the minimal amount to get it running, and that was all. Nice! -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Aug 17 21:41:04 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 19:41:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: PDP-1 as minicomputer [was RE: OT - sort of] In-Reply-To: <AANLkTi=RENp1PERbsgCgZg4nkHWqPOVKpaqmROydrTqR@mail.gmail.com> References: <CC28F43ED4708D489ABCF68D06D7F556040A5CC9EA@505DENALI.corp.vnw.com> <E1OlSjD-0001Qr-QC@shell.xmission.com> <AANLkTi=RENp1PERbsgCgZg4nkHWqPOVKpaqmROydrTqR@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20100817193547.I45518@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 17 Aug 2010, Ethan Dicks wrote: > I'm a bit curious about the working definition, too. I'm by no means > an expert, but I would have thought that a machine that fell into the > "minicomputer" category would be based on its size and cost > . . . > But it all depends on how you define "minicomputer" as to what > specifically falls in the category. Who originally created the term? marketing?? Can you pick it up and carry it? Does it have casters, or do you use a handtruck? Does it require a forklift and a union moving crew? Can you lose a screw in it? Can you lose a screwdriver in it? Can you lose a scope in it? Can you lose a person in it? Who are the sides in the most prevalent religious battles? What do the neighbors say about your collection? -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Aug 17 21:43:24 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 20:43:24 -0600 Subject: OT - sort of In-Reply-To: <CC28F43ED4708D489ABCF68D06D7F556040A5CC9EF@505DENALI.corp.vnw.com> References: <4C6973C3.30102@tx.rr.com> from "Charlie Carothers" at Aug 16, 10 12:22:11 pm <m1OlSs6-000J3uC@p850ug1> <CC28F43ED4708D489ABCF68D06D7F556040A5CC9EF@505DENALI.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <4C6B48CC.1030502@brouhaha.com> Rich Alderson wrote: > PDP-14: build-it-yourself It wasn't really build-it-yourself. It was wire-it-to-industrial-controls-and-program-it-yourself, which isn't that much different than the PDP-8 and PDP-11 systems intended for lab or industrial use. The big difference is that the PDP-14 is programmed using ladder logic; it's basically a PLC. > PDP-16: build-it-yourself The PDP-16 was build-it-yourself, but wasn't necessarily a computer. It was called "Register Transfer Modules". It would typically be hardwired rather than having a stored program. The general approach was asynchronous logic as previously used in various processors such as the KA10. Each functional unit sends a pulse to trigger the next unit in the flow. However, there was a "standard" PDP-16 computer, the PDP-16/M. I doubt that they shipped very many, as it was more expensive than a PDP-11/05 but less powerful and DEC had no supporting software. > The follow models of the PDP-10 were christened DECsystem-10 and > DECSYSTEM-20 Those were the system names; the processor was still called a PDP-10, and the specific processor models were known by their option names, KA10, KI10, KL10, and KS10. Eric From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Aug 17 21:48:32 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 19:48:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: PDP-1 as minicomputer [was RE: OT - sort of] In-Reply-To: <4C6AA1ED.23394.1788E21@cclist.sydex.com> References: <AANLkTi=RENp1PERbsgCgZg4nkHWqPOVKpaqmROydrTqR@mail.gmail.com>, <E1OlTGe-0002jf-T5@shell.xmission.com>, <AANLkTimALAWzmEw2FMkBinMbQPFcsif35EKX0+AcPO08@mail.gmail.com> <4C6AA1ED.23394.1788E21@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20100817194658.V45518@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 17 Aug 2010, Chuck Guzis wrote: > My own personal yardstick is that a "minicomputer" is something that > can be run from a single 120V 20A lighting circuit. The PB250 > qualifies; the 160A does not--and neither does the PDP-1. > Others may use their own yardsticks. Batteries or "battery charger" Mains outlet Range/clothes dryer circuit Industrial service Three phase Delta Three Phase "Y" From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Aug 17 21:59:07 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 19:59:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: PDP-1 as minicomputer [was RE: OT - sort of] In-Reply-To: <FF6AB92D97A23A409701CDBF66F03FCD03DC3E6ECE@505fuji> References: <AANLkTi=7e7EsiL=31Hcgdv3i40voPnsnpomg35oZbL6w@mail.gmail.com> <E1OlUeU-0002Bi-HQ@shell.xmission.com> <AANLkTi=5hwDMPFjqhobXzRtLja_Q_jDHvC0Fu_+eV-hM@mail.gmail.com> <FF6AB92D97A23A409701CDBF66F03FCD03DC3E6ECE@505fuji> Message-ID: <20100817195804.H45518@shell.lmi.net> > > There is a classic Data General ad that ran when IBM was introducing > > the S/1 to "legitimize the minicomputer market". The Data General ad > > said "The bastards say, welcome". > > Bruce Ray may be looking for this ad for a scan. > I'm almost certain I've seen that ad, which either means (a) Bruce already has it or (b) I'm older than I realize. -- Ian Along with it, locate the "welcome" ad that Apple ran when the 5150 came out From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Aug 17 22:26:33 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 21:26:33 -0600 Subject: PDP-1 as minicomputer [was RE: OT - sort of] In-Reply-To: <20100817195804.H45518@shell.lmi.net> References: <AANLkTi=7e7EsiL=31Hcgdv3i40voPnsnpomg35oZbL6w@mail.gmail.com> <E1OlUeU-0002Bi-HQ@shell.xmission.com> <AANLkTi=5hwDMPFjqhobXzRtLja_Q_jDHvC0Fu_+eV-hM@mail.gmail.com> <FF6AB92D97A23A409701CDBF66F03FCD03DC3E6ECE@505fuji> <20100817195804.H45518@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4C6B52E9.2070003@brouhaha.com> Fred Cisin wrote: > Along with it, locate the "welcome" ad that Apple ran when the 5150 came > out August 22, 1981 Wall Street Journal: http://www.macmothership.com/gallery/newads2/seriouslyIBM_l.jpg From huw.davies at mail.vsm.com.au Tue Aug 17 09:18:44 2010 From: huw.davies at mail.vsm.com.au (Huw Davies) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 00:18:44 +1000 Subject: PDP-1 movies In-Reply-To: <4C69C2CF.50503@tx.rr.com> References: <4C69C2CF.50503@tx.rr.com> Message-ID: <40D85739-4F9F-451F-A84B-70798E096B28@kerberos.davies.net.au> On 17/08/2010, at 8:59 AM, Charlie Carothers wrote: > Kind folks, > I was just wondering if anyone else is able to view the 3 movies near the bottom of http://pdp-1.computerhistory.org/pdp-1/index.php?f=theme&s=2 > For me, each one runs for a bit and then just stops. Windows task manager shows no internet activity at that point. If I bring up some other page and then go back there, the video gets a bit further each time before seizing up again. Perhaps if I had infinite patience I could eventually see them all the way through. Any idea what might cause this? > Thanks, > Charlie C. Sadly the same here (Firefox, Mac OS-X), so I think we can conclude that it's a problem at the far end. Pity, listening to Ken brings back lots of fond memories. Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies at kerberos.davies.net.au Melbourne | "If soccer was meant to be played in the Australia | air, the sky would be painted green" From bienvenue at datex.fr Tue Aug 17 12:34:44 2010 From: bienvenue at datex.fr (Datex) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 19:34:44 +0200 Subject: Datex floppy drive emulator - flash based replacement for magnetic Message-ID: <580cca5a58809294889fd10c94412b87@mwinf5d13.me-wanadoo.net> Dear Marcus, You talk about our product ..thank you ! But it will be better to contact us , and i can explain to you why our products are expensives .. Do you know really the price ? Do you remember also what was the price of the product we are replacing when they had been sold ? As examples :(and i can give to you a lot..) -The RD54 from DEC was a Maxtor XT2190 with DEC format. DEC price list , as formatted unit , was 9200 USD , 20 years ago !!! -The Shugart SA850 , 8 inches floppy drive ,price list through their resellers..2800 USD...30 years ago !! A lot of industries and "others" are still using them for differents reasons and they need to be replace as simple they want without changing any software , nothing !! just to unplug the drive ..and plug emulator , and then start again !!.. We also offer to copy "bit per bit" their data and format , because often they are no more able to do the format.. You can conatct me at glb at datex.fr Best regards. Guy LE BOUGEANT. President. From jws at jwsss.com Tue Aug 17 18:19:23 2010 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 16:19:23 -0700 Subject: PDP-1 as minicomputer [was RE: OT - sort of] In-Reply-To: <AANLkTi=5hwDMPFjqhobXzRtLja_Q_jDHvC0Fu_+eV-hM@mail.gmail.com> References: <AANLkTi=7e7EsiL=31Hcgdv3i40voPnsnpomg35oZbL6w@mail.gmail.com> <E1OlUeU-0002Bi-HQ@shell.xmission.com> <AANLkTi=5hwDMPFjqhobXzRtLja_Q_jDHvC0Fu_+eV-hM@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4C6B18FB.106@jwsss.com> > >> How about Series/1? >> > There is a classic Data General ad that ran when IBM was introducing > the S/1 to "legitimize the minicomputer market". The Data General ad > said "The bastards say, welcome". > > Bruce Ray may be looking for this ad for a scan. > > -- > Will > > > One of my friends has a Series/1 that was used as a front end for Ascii serial terminals on a Pick (Ultimate) system for the Ibm mainframe. You could use the 7171 up to a point then switch to the Series/1. There was a 68000 based series of controllers called Hyfas (??) that fitted in the aircooled mainframes that we later used for serial I/O. Seattle OS also had a full Pick implementation that ran on the Series/1, but missed their marketing window and didn't capitalize on their franchise before running out of money. From geoffr at zipcon.net Tue Aug 17 22:56:05 2010 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoffrey Reed) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 20:56:05 -0700 Subject: EPROM programming (27c160's) In-Reply-To: <4C6A5BF0.11077.67291E@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <C890A7E5.26FDF%geoffr@zipcon.net> On 8/17/10 9:52 AM, "Chuck Guzis" <cclist at sydex.com> wrote: > On 17 Aug 2010 at 7:18, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > >> >>> A word of warning about the sivava programmer: It's a modified >>> Willem unit with its own special software. The developer forked the >>> Willem project and never released his changes. Caused a lot of >>> rancor. >> >> http://www.py2bbs.qsl.br/willem_pcb45.php >> >> Modifying a regular willem for 4.5 software > > On the subject, does anyone have any experience with the Genius G540? > It claims to be able to program GALs as well as (E)EPROMs and there's > a 16-bit adapter for it. The price is very attractive. > > --Chuck I have been programming eproms with one for an N8VEM z-80 board, and also for some door controller devices :), and have blanked some GAL chips with it, but I have yet to actually program something into a GAL with it. It is definitely less painful to get cabled up than my Xtronics pocket programmer. From legalize at xmission.com Wed Aug 18 00:32:07 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 23:32:07 -0600 Subject: Onyx2 cube In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 17 Aug 2010 22:27:52 -0400. <BLU139-W15D39857668800C95AD9DDC99D0@phx.gbl> Message-ID: <E1OlbFv-0005FM-IB@shell.xmission.com> In article <BLU139-W15D39857668800C95AD9DDC99D0 at phx.gbl>, Dan Gahlinger <dgahling at hotmail.com> writes: > its sitting in a corner in my garage, so the answer is no :) Ah, then we'd have to identify the graphics based on the boards that are installed in it. Fairly easy to do actually. Assuming you care enough to find out :-) -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com/the-direct3d-graphics-pipeline/> Legalize Adulthood! <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com> From legalize at xmission.com Wed Aug 18 00:35:05 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 23:35:05 -0600 Subject: PDP-1 as minicomputer [was RE: OT - sort of] In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 17 Aug 2010 21:26:33 -0600. <4C6B52E9.2070003@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <E1OlbIn-00061A-8I@shell.xmission.com> In article <4C6B52E9.2070003 at brouhaha.com>, Eric Smith <eric at brouhaha.com> writes: > Fred Cisin wrote: > > Along with it, locate the "welcome" ad that Apple ran when the 5150 came > > out > > August 22, 1981 Wall Street Journal: > > http://www.macmothership.com/gallery/newads2/seriouslyIBM_l.jpg Shit, its disappointing to see the Apple ][ era Apple being so smug and snotty. I thought they only picked that up after Mac came out. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com/the-direct3d-graphics-pipeline/> Legalize Adulthood! <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com> From pontus at Update.UU.SE Wed Aug 18 00:41:50 2010 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 07:41:50 +0200 Subject: Onyx2 cube In-Reply-To: <E1OlbFv-0005FM-IB@shell.xmission.com> References: <BLU139-W15D39857668800C95AD9DDC99D0@phx.gbl> <E1OlbFv-0005FM-IB@shell.xmission.com> Message-ID: <20100818054150.GA16048@Update.UU.SE> On Tue, Aug 17, 2010 at 11:32:07PM -0600, Richard wrote: > > In article <BLU139-W15D39857668800C95AD9DDC99D0 at phx.gbl>, > Dan Gahlinger <dgahling at hotmail.com> writes: > > > its sitting in a corner in my garage, so the answer is no :) > > Ah, then we'd have to identify the graphics based on the boards that > are installed in it. Fairly easy to do actually. Assuming you care > enough to find out :-) I think it is just a matter of reading the part number of the back of the boards? And if those are peeled off you might have to start it. I guess you know of nekochan.net, it's an excellent resource for SGI-owners. I have and Origin2000 deskside I'm playing with now and an Onyx rack for later :) They are quite nice machines. /P From quapla at xs4all.nl Wed Aug 18 02:57:18 2010 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (E. Groenenberg) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 09:57:18 +0200 Subject: KA640 + mem available Message-ID: <1fc83aaee643fda58f5a71ab70fa273c.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> For the cost of postage, a KA640-CL 'Mayfair II' processor board (M7624) & 2 M7609 memoryboards. It's a pull from a working machine. Items are in The Netherlands. Contact me off list if interested. -- Dit is een HTML vrije email / This is an HTML free email. From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Wed Aug 18 04:39:26 2010 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 11:39:26 +0200 (CEST) Subject: PDP-1 as minicomputer [was RE: OT - sort of] In-Reply-To: <AANLkTi=L4hDaWSFPyO6k4RKjogB23j153gaDOSGyJyk1@mail.gmail.com> References: <AANLkTi=RENp1PERbsgCgZg4nkHWqPOVKpaqmROydrTqR@mail.gmail.com> <E1OlTGe-0002jf-T5@shell.xmission.com> <AANLkTimALAWzmEw2FMkBinMbQPFcsif35EKX0+AcPO08@mail.gmail.com> <4C6AA1ED.23394.1788E21@cclist.sydex.com> <AANLkTi=L4hDaWSFPyO6k4RKjogB23j153gaDOSGyJyk1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008181135270.18462@linuxserv.home> On Tue, 17 Aug 2010, Ethan Dicks wrote: > Hmm... I'm not sure the Straight-8 qualifies by that yardstick. 30A > 120V circuit, no problem. 20A, I'm not as confident. Ehm, a Straight-8 only needs a few hundred watts (maybe 200W). We run it together with the Tennecomp tape system from a smallish step-down transformer without problems. Seems like American current is quite different from European current ;-) Christian From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Wed Aug 18 04:43:23 2010 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 11:43:23 +0200 (CEST) Subject: PDP-1 as minicomputer In-Reply-To: <C318597D1B2543DEB5048BC10DF88429@tegp4> References: <mailman.43.1282086233.1006.cctalk@classiccmp.org> <C318597D1B2543DEB5048BC10DF88429@tegp4> Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008181142030.18462@linuxserv.home> On Tue, 17 Aug 2010, Tom Gardner wrote: > IMHO the IBM 1130 introduced in 1965 is an early if not the first > minicomputer. To quote the 1965 IBM announcement: > "The desk-sized 1130 is designed for individual use by engineers, scientists The LGP-30 was there 10 years before and even smaller than an 1130. Christian From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Wed Aug 18 05:19:57 2010 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 03:19:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: need 35 P112 preorders Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.1.10.1008180310480.11841@sleipnir.cs.csubak.edu> So far I've gotten only four P112 kits preordered. I need at least 35 of them preordered to get the thing rolling. Paypal will only allow me to do refunds and get the fees back within 60 days of a payment. 60 days after the first preorder is October 11. Because of that, I'm moving the preorder cutoff date to October 11. If I can't get enough preorders, all money will be refunded. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From trebor77 at execpc.com Wed Aug 18 07:11:24 2010 From: trebor77 at execpc.com (Robert J. Stevens) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 07:11:24 -0500 Subject: How about Series/1? In-Reply-To: <mailman.45.1282109537.1006.cctalk@classiccmp.org> References: <mailman.45.1282109537.1006.cctalk@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <4C6BCDEC.2070003@execpc.com> How about Series/1? The Series/1 was the first entry by IBM into the minicomputer market as such. I just happen to have one sitting in my Basement. Brought it home around 1992 but never got it up and running. Should have added a 110 Volt 30 AMP Circuit but didn't. Its a 4952/4953 Half Rack W/a 9Meg HD setup for 110 Volts. Plus I have a external Floppy drive that used to work. I had an IBM Guy convert a 4955 Model E to 110 volt but I also have to original 4952. I plan on firing up the individual components through my Lab-Volt with a variable 120 Volt 3.5 Ampere Output if that will work without blowing something. "Any Thoughts Anyone???" Anyone out there running a tape drive setup that could read 6250 10" reels. I have about a Dozen, mostly backup tapes from the Working system. One is an IBM Diagnostic Tape. Maybe I can get in running. Going out west for a couple of weeks to Pan out some Gold flakes. A couple of Ounces will give me some cash to work with. Been retired since 1996 so Income is sparse. Bob in Wisconsin From dgahling at hotmail.com Wed Aug 18 08:39:50 2010 From: dgahling at hotmail.com (Dan Gahlinger) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 09:39:50 -0400 Subject: Onyx2 cube In-Reply-To: <20100818054150.GA16048@Update.UU.SE> References: <BLU139-W15D39857668800C95AD9DDC99D0@phx.gbl>, <E1OlbFv-0005FM-IB@shell.xmission.com>, <20100818054150.GA16048@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <BLU139-W353633CFF9DD3231665DFDC99D0@phx.gbl> I just checked, and seems my brain was out to lunch (ok, no jokes). it's an O2, not an onyx2 - it *has* been sitting in a corner of the garage for 5 years untouched til today. in this case it's probably worth quite a bit less :( > Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 07:41:50 +0200 > From: pontus at Update.UU.SE > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Onyx2 cube > > On Tue, Aug 17, 2010 at 11:32:07PM -0600, Richard wrote: > > > > In article <BLU139-W15D39857668800C95AD9DDC99D0 at phx.gbl>, > > Dan Gahlinger <dgahling at hotmail.com> writes: > > > > > its sitting in a corner in my garage, so the answer is no :) > > > > Ah, then we'd have to identify the graphics based on the boards that > > are installed in it. Fairly easy to do actually. Assuming you care > > enough to find out :-) > > I think it is just a matter of reading the part number of the back of > the boards? And if those are peeled off you might have to start it. > > I guess you know of nekochan.net, it's an excellent resource for > SGI-owners. I have and Origin2000 deskside I'm playing with now and an > Onyx rack for later :) They are quite nice machines. > > /P From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Aug 18 08:49:36 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 09:49:36 -0400 Subject: Onyx2 cube In-Reply-To: <BLU139-W353633CFF9DD3231665DFDC99D0@phx.gbl> References: <BLU139-W15D39857668800C95AD9DDC99D0@phx.gbl>, <E1OlbFv-0005FM-IB@shell.xmission.com>, <20100818054150.GA16048@Update.UU.SE> <BLU139-W353633CFF9DD3231665DFDC99D0@phx.gbl> Message-ID: <4C6BE4F0.9050204@neurotica.com> On 8/18/10 9:39 AM, Dan Gahlinger wrote: > I just checked, and seems my brain was out to lunch (ok, no jokes). > > it's an O2, not an onyx2 - it *has* been sitting in a corner of the garage for 5 years untouched til today. Umm wow, quite a difference between an O2 and an Onyx2. ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Aug 18 08:56:26 2010 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 06:56:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Octane video cable... In-Reply-To: <BLU139-W353633CFF9DD3231665DFDC99D0@phx.gbl> References: <BLU139-W15D39857668800C95AD9DDC99D0@phx.gbl>, <E1OlbFv-0005FM-IB@shell.xmission.com>, <20100818054150.GA16048@Update.UU.SE> <BLU139-W353633CFF9DD3231665DFDC99D0@phx.gbl> Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.00.1008180655060.9992@grumble.deltasoft.com> Does anyone here have a video cable suitable for an Octane they'd like to part with? I got a complete system a few weeks ago, but no video cable. :( tnx! g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From dkelvey at hotmail.com Wed Aug 18 08:57:48 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 06:57:48 -0700 Subject: PDP-1 as minicomputer [was RE: OT - sort of] In-Reply-To: <AANLkTim89Zubr0o3M_xpbk01fxpZCG1BRfmn9Tv7RbNA@mail.gmail.com> References: <AANLkTi=RENp1PERbsgCgZg4nkHWqPOVKpaqmROydrTqR@mail.gmail.com>, <E1OlTGe-0002jf-T5@shell.xmission.com>, <AANLkTimALAWzmEw2FMkBinMbQPFcsif35EKX0+AcPO08@mail.gmail.com>, <4C6AA1ED.23394.1788E21@cclist.sydex.com>, <AANLkTi=L4hDaWSFPyO6k4RKjogB23j153gaDOSGyJyk1@mail.gmail.com>, <SNT129-W46023395357A7CC046E8AA39C0@phx.gbl>, <AANLkTim89Zubr0o3M_xpbk01fxpZCG1BRfmn9Tv7RbNA@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <SNT129-W63C6C5EE30BDAF0A97D1CAA39D0@phx.gbl> > From: wdonzelli at gmail.com > > > IBM had a series of small computers they called minis that used > > water cooling. These where about the size of three standard desk, > > end-to-end. > > What machines were these? > > -- > Will Hi Will Looking at newer post, it seems like these were 43xx or something like that. I recall we had a machine the wasn't called a mini and that number ( as I recall ) was a 3081. It was quite big. Dwight From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Aug 18 09:13:30 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 10:13:30 -0400 Subject: PDP-1 as minicomputer [was RE: OT - sort of] In-Reply-To: <SNT129-W63C6C5EE30BDAF0A97D1CAA39D0@phx.gbl> References: <AANLkTi=RENp1PERbsgCgZg4nkHWqPOVKpaqmROydrTqR@mail.gmail.com> <E1OlTGe-0002jf-T5@shell.xmission.com> <AANLkTimALAWzmEw2FMkBinMbQPFcsif35EKX0+AcPO08@mail.gmail.com> <4C6AA1ED.23394.1788E21@cclist.sydex.com> <AANLkTi=L4hDaWSFPyO6k4RKjogB23j153gaDOSGyJyk1@mail.gmail.com> <SNT129-W46023395357A7CC046E8AA39C0@phx.gbl> <AANLkTim89Zubr0o3M_xpbk01fxpZCG1BRfmn9Tv7RbNA@mail.gmail.com> <SNT129-W63C6C5EE30BDAF0A97D1CAA39D0@phx.gbl> Message-ID: <AANLkTin_4puRkfd7AFZVyWuvd+WW6ccRcz+HFH8CHLms@mail.gmail.com> > ?Looking at newer post, it seems like these were 43xx or something like that. > I recall we had a machine the wasn't called a mini and that number ( as > I recall ) was a 3081. It was quite big. OK a little confusion here. The 3081 was indeed the water cooled machine. They generally had a 4361 as the service processor. The 4361 was one of these low-maintenance machines - air cooled, no special power, very reliable. -- Will From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Aug 18 09:14:04 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 10:14:04 -0400 Subject: PDP-1 as minicomputer [was RE: OT - sort of] In-Reply-To: <SNT129-W63C6C5EE30BDAF0A97D1CAA39D0@phx.gbl> References: <AANLkTi=RENp1PERbsgCgZg4nkHWqPOVKpaqmROydrTqR@mail.gmail.com>, <E1OlTGe-0002jf-T5@shell.xmission.com>, <AANLkTimALAWzmEw2FMkBinMbQPFcsif35EKX0+AcPO08@mail.gmail.com>, <4C6AA1ED.23394.1788E21@cclist.sydex.com>, <AANLkTi=L4hDaWSFPyO6k4RKjogB23j153gaDOSGyJyk1@mail.gmail.com>, <SNT129-W46023395357A7CC046E8AA39C0@phx.gbl>, <AANLkTim89Zubr0o3M_xpbk01fxpZCG1BRfmn9Tv7RbNA@mail.gmail.com> <SNT129-W63C6C5EE30BDAF0A97D1CAA39D0@phx.gbl> Message-ID: <4C6BEAAC.2090908@neurotica.com> On 8/18/10 9:57 AM, dwight elvey wrote: >>> IBM had a series of small computers they called minis that used >>> water cooling. These where about the size of three standard desk, >>> end-to-end. >> >> What machines were these? > > Looking at newer post, it seems like these were 43xx or something like that. > I recall we had a machine the wasn't called a mini and that number ( as > I recall ) was a 3081. It was quite big. I thought the whole 4300 series was air-cooled. The 3090, on the other hand, is not, and is a fairly big machine. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From drb at msu.edu Wed Aug 18 09:20:13 2010 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 10:20:13 -0400 Subject: PDP-1 as minicomputer [was RE: OT - sort of] In-Reply-To: (Your message of Wed, 18 Aug 2010 06:57:48 PDT.) <SNT129-W63C6C5EE30BDAF0A97D1CAA39D0@phx.gbl> References: <SNT129-W63C6C5EE30BDAF0A97D1CAA39D0@phx.gbl> <AANLkTi=RENp1PERbsgCgZg4nkHWqPOVKpaqmROydrTqR@mail.gmail.com>, <E1OlTGe-0002jf-T5@shell.xmission.com>, <AANLkTimALAWzmEw2FMkBinMbQPFcsif35EKX0+AcPO08@mail.gmail.com>, <4C6AA1ED.23394.1788E21@cclist.sydex.com>, <AANLkTi=L4hDaWSFPyO6k4RKjogB23j153gaDOSGyJyk1@mail.gmail.com>, <SNT129-W46023395357A7CC046E8AA39C0@phx.gbl>, <AANLkTim89Zubr0o3M_xpbk01fxpZCG1BRfmn9Tv7RbNA@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20100818142013.A920CA5826C@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > Looking at newer post, it seems like these were 43xx or something like > that. I recall we had a machine the wasn't called a mini and that > number ( as I recall ) was a 3081. It was quite big. The 4331 which I helped move into the computer center occupied the floorspace of a single desk, but was a little bit taller, and was an air-cooled system. I believe the 4341 which later replaced it was the same size. They were quite heavy, size notwithstanding. :) The 4381s I met later were double-wide 6' rack cabinets, similar in size to 3380 dasd cabs, but still air cooled. De From legalize at xmission.com Wed Aug 18 09:43:06 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 08:43:06 -0600 Subject: Onyx2 cube In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 18 Aug 2010 09:39:50 -0400. <BLU139-W353633CFF9DD3231665DFDC99D0@phx.gbl> Message-ID: <E1Oljr8-0004BW-Gp@shell.xmission.com> In article <BLU139-W353633CFF9DD3231665DFDC99D0 at phx.gbl>, Dan Gahlinger <dgahling at hotmail.com> writes: > it's an O2, not an onyx2 - it *has* been sitting in a corner of the garage fo r 5 years untouched til today. Ah. Well an O2 is about 1/8th the volume of an Onyx 2. :-) > in this case it's probably worth quite a bit less :( Not necessarily; an O2 is a nice little workstation. Unlike the Octane it doesn't weigh a gajillion pounds either. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com/the-direct3d-graphics-pipeline/> Legalize Adulthood! <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com> From legalize at xmission.com Wed Aug 18 09:44:44 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 08:44:44 -0600 Subject: Octane video cable... In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 18 Aug 2010 06:56:26 -0700. <alpine.LFD.2.00.1008180655060.9992@grumble.deltasoft.com> Message-ID: <E1Oljsi-0004Zr-2M@shell.xmission.com> In article <alpine.LFD.2.00.1008180655060.9992 at grumble.deltasoft.com>, Gene Buckle <geneb at deltasoft.com> writes: > Does anyone here have a video cable suitable for an Octane they'd like to > part with? I got a complete system a few weeks ago, but no video cable. > :( IIRC, these are fairly common as they were used on many SGI and Sun workstations. Its called a 13W3 cable. <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/13W3> If someone here doesn't toss you one gratis, they should be fairly easy and inexpensive to purchase. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com/the-direct3d-graphics-pipeline/> Legalize Adulthood! <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com> From doc at vaxen.net Wed Aug 18 10:31:02 2010 From: doc at vaxen.net (Doc) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 10:31:02 -0500 Subject: Octane video cable... In-Reply-To: <E1Oljsi-0004Zr-2M@shell.xmission.com> References: <E1Oljsi-0004Zr-2M@shell.xmission.com> Message-ID: <4C6BFCB6.5060407@vaxen.net> Richard wrote: > In article <alpine.LFD.2.00.1008180655060.9992 at grumble.deltasoft.com>, > Gene Buckle <geneb at deltasoft.com> writes: > >> Does anyone here have a video cable suitable for an Octane they'd like to >> part with? I got a complete system a few weeks ago, but no video cable. >> :( > > IIRC, these are fairly common as they were used on many SGI and Sun > workstations. Its called a 13W3 cable. > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/13W3> > Sun 13W3 cables do not work correctly with SGIs and most monitors. I disremember what the signal is, but pin 10 needs to be *removed* from the Sun cable. IIRC, SGI is SOG and Sun is composite sync. Doc From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Aug 18 10:44:41 2010 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 08:44:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Octane video cable... In-Reply-To: <E1Oljsi-0004Zr-2M@shell.xmission.com> References: <E1Oljsi-0004Zr-2M@shell.xmission.com> Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.00.1008180806550.12113@grumble.deltasoft.com> On Wed, 18 Aug 2010, Richard wrote: > > In article <alpine.LFD.2.00.1008180655060.9992 at grumble.deltasoft.com>, > Gene Buckle <geneb at deltasoft.com> writes: > >> Does anyone here have a video cable suitable for an Octane they'd like to >> part with? I got a complete system a few weeks ago, but no video cable. >> :( > > IIRC, these are fairly common as they were used on many SGI and Sun > workstations. Its called a 13W3 cable. > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/13W3> > It's my understanding that the Sun 13W3 cable isn't wired the same as the SGI version. > If someone here doesn't toss you one gratis, they should be fairly > easy and inexpensive to purchase. > So far I've only found a 13W3->VGA adapter for $24. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Aug 18 11:25:34 2010 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 09:25:34 -0700 Subject: Origin of the term minicomputer (was Re: PDP-1 as minicomputer [was RE: OT - sort of]) In-Reply-To: <20100817193547.I45518@shell.lmi.net> References: <CC28F43ED4708D489ABCF68D06D7F556040A5CC9EA@505DENALI.corp.vnw.com> <E1OlSjD-0001Qr-QC@shell.xmission.com> <AANLkTi=RENp1PERbsgCgZg4nkHWqPOVKpaqmROydrTqR@mail.gmail.com> <20100817193547.I45518@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4C6C097E.8060908@bitsavers.org> >> But it all depends on how you define "minicomputer" as to what >> specifically falls in the category. > > Who originally created the term? marketing?? > The earliest use of the term as we use it today was an ad in Datamation announcing the (Varian) Data 520i in April, 1968. Before that the class was called "small computers", ie. the PDP-8 "Small Computer Handbook". Fall JCC, December 1968 had several papers using the term "mini-computer" or "minicomputer". Spring 1970 JCC is the first time DEC uses the term with the annoucement of the PDP-11 and the paper "A new architecture for mini-computers -- the DEC PDP-11" From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Aug 18 11:43:22 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 09:43:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Origin of the term minicomputer (was Re: PDP-1 as minicomputer [was RE: OT - sort of]) In-Reply-To: <4C6C097E.8060908@bitsavers.org> References: <CC28F43ED4708D489ABCF68D06D7F556040A5CC9EA@505DENALI.corp.vnw.com> <E1OlSjD-0001Qr-QC@shell.xmission.com> <AANLkTi=RENp1PERbsgCgZg4nkHWqPOVKpaqmROydrTqR@mail.gmail.com> <20100817193547.I45518@shell.lmi.net> <4C6C097E.8060908@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <20100818093527.M65618@shell.lmi.net> > >> But it all depends on how you define "minicomputer" as to what > >> specifically falls in the category. > > Who originally created the term? marketing?? On Wed, 18 Aug 2010, Al Kossow wrote: > The earliest use of the term as we use it today was an ad in > Datamation announcing the (Varian) Data 520i in April, 1968. Therefore, the (Varian) Data 520i was the "first" minicomputer, although there were other computers around that had not been "minicomputers", but BECAME "minicomputers" when the term became popular. > Before that the class was called "small computers", > ie. the PDP-8 "Small Computer Handbook". > Fall JCC, December 1968 had several papers using the term > "mini-computer" or "minicomputer". > Spring 1970 JCC is the first time DEC uses the term with the > annoucement of the PDP-11 and the paper "A new architecture > for mini-computers -- the DEC PDP-11" Therefore, DEC acknowledged the existence of "mini-computers" prior to the PDP-11 providing a "new architecture" for them. Thank you for looking up the history of the term! -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cclist at sydex.com Wed Aug 18 12:31:08 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 10:31:08 -0700 Subject: Origin of the term minicomputer (was Re: PDP-1 as minicomputer [was RE: OT - sort of]) In-Reply-To: <4C6C097E.8060908@bitsavers.org> References: <CC28F43ED4708D489ABCF68D06D7F556040A5CC9EA@505DENALI.corp.vnw.com>, <20100817193547.I45518@shell.lmi.net>, <4C6C097E.8060908@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4C6BB66C.19198.36EDC4@cclist.sydex.com> On 18 Aug 2010 at 9:25, Al Kossow wrote: > The earliest use of the term as we use it today was an ad in > Datamation announcing the (Varian) Data 520i in April, 1968. That would, etymologically speaking, put the term more in the American "miniskirt" (1966) camp that came over with the Mod subculture and the Beatles, than the BMC/Morris "Mini (1959) one. I'd suspected the auto usage was more exclusively British. Could we say that the minicomputer owes its origins to Carnaby Street? --Chuck From dkelvey at hotmail.com Wed Aug 18 12:57:48 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 10:57:48 -0700 Subject: PDP-1 as minicomputer [was RE: OT - sort of] In-Reply-To: <AANLkTin_4puRkfd7AFZVyWuvd+WW6ccRcz+HFH8CHLms@mail.gmail.com> References: <AANLkTi=RENp1PERbsgCgZg4nkHWqPOVKpaqmROydrTqR@mail.gmail.com>, <E1OlTGe-0002jf-T5@shell.xmission.com>, <AANLkTimALAWzmEw2FMkBinMbQPFcsif35EKX0+AcPO08@mail.gmail.com>, <4C6AA1ED.23394.1788E21@cclist.sydex.com>, <AANLkTi=L4hDaWSFPyO6k4RKjogB23j153gaDOSGyJyk1@mail.gmail.com>, <SNT129-W46023395357A7CC046E8AA39C0@phx.gbl>, <AANLkTim89Zubr0o3M_xpbk01fxpZCG1BRfmn9Tv7RbNA@mail.gmail.com>, <SNT129-W63C6C5EE30BDAF0A97D1CAA39D0@phx.gbl>, <AANLkTin_4puRkfd7AFZVyWuvd+WW6ccRcz+HFH8CHLms@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <SNT129-W58003E2284518D84C90150A39D0@phx.gbl> > From: wdonzelli at gmail.com > > > Looking at newer post, it seems like these were 43xx or something like that. > > I recall we had a machine the wasn't called a mini and that number ( as > > I recall ) was a 3081. It was quite big. > > OK a little confusion here. > > The 3081 was indeed the water cooled machine. They generally had a > 4361 as the service processor. The 4361 was one of these > low-maintenance machines - air cooled, no special power, very > reliable. > > -- > Will Hi Will It could be I'm just suffering from BrainFade. I still recall one of the techs pulling the covers off the sides and noting that it was unusual for this series of machines to be water cooled. I recall seeing the plates with hoses and gaskets. Over the years, it could have been the 3081 but I knew that was water cooled. It has been a long time and it wasn't my main area. Dwight From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Aug 18 13:11:02 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 14:11:02 -0400 Subject: PDP-1 as minicomputer [was RE: OT - sort of] In-Reply-To: <SNT129-W58003E2284518D84C90150A39D0@phx.gbl> References: <AANLkTi=RENp1PERbsgCgZg4nkHWqPOVKpaqmROydrTqR@mail.gmail.com> <E1OlTGe-0002jf-T5@shell.xmission.com> <AANLkTimALAWzmEw2FMkBinMbQPFcsif35EKX0+AcPO08@mail.gmail.com> <4C6AA1ED.23394.1788E21@cclist.sydex.com> <AANLkTi=L4hDaWSFPyO6k4RKjogB23j153gaDOSGyJyk1@mail.gmail.com> <SNT129-W46023395357A7CC046E8AA39C0@phx.gbl> <AANLkTim89Zubr0o3M_xpbk01fxpZCG1BRfmn9Tv7RbNA@mail.gmail.com> <SNT129-W63C6C5EE30BDAF0A97D1CAA39D0@phx.gbl> <AANLkTin_4puRkfd7AFZVyWuvd+WW6ccRcz+HFH8CHLms@mail.gmail.com> <SNT129-W58003E2284518D84C90150A39D0@phx.gbl> Message-ID: <AANLkTi=BGJtF=J3b_7pAk9mQiMiGK9pfk8MUH0Bcrrnb@mail.gmail.com> > ?I recall seeing the plates with hoses and gaskets. Over the years, it > could have been the 3081 but I knew that was water cooled. It has > been a long time and it wasn't my main area. Yes, definitely the 3081. Plumbing galore. Here is a picture of a very similar 3084: http://www.compumagic.com/shop/16MbMainFrame.html -- Will From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Aug 18 13:48:52 2010 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 13:48:52 -0500 Subject: Origin of the term minicomputer (was Re: PDP-1 as minicomputer [wasRE: OT - sort of]) References: <CC28F43ED4708D489ABCF68D06D7F556040A5CC9EA@505DENALI.corp.vnw.com> <E1OlSjD-0001Qr-QC@shell.xmission.com> <AANLkTi=RENp1PERbsgCgZg4nkHWqPOVKpaqmROydrTqR@mail.gmail.com><20100817193547.I45518@shell.lmi.net> <4C6C097E.8060908@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <120D94F519844B248700E121579A6903@osa.local> >>> But it all depends on how you define "minicomputer" as to what >>> specifically falls in the category. >> >> Who originally created the term? marketing?? Dunno if it's correct, but I was always taught in compsci classes at UMR that the definition of micro/mini/mainframe was technical and precise and that any misuse of the categorization was an attempt by marketing people to make their system look more attractive, or users who didn't understand the terminology. I suspect the teacher was being a bit too precise. Anyways, their definition was that a micro was a computer on a single chip, a mini was a computer on multiple chips or boads, and that a mainframe was "something larger", with multiple chassis making up the cpu itself. I always thought that was a fair description, but of course I can already find (what I feel are) some exceptions to it :) Jay From thomas.gardner at sbcglobal.net Wed Aug 18 13:46:55 2010 From: thomas.gardner at sbcglobal.net (Tom Gardner) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 11:46:55 -0700 Subject: Origin of the term minicomputer (was Re: PDP-1 as ... In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1282150803.24927.cctalk@classiccmp.org> References: <mailman.1.1282150803.24927.cctalk@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <B496D9C87C8746C6A8A1830119C4ACFD@tegp4> > Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 09:25:34 -0700 > From: Al Kossow <aek at bitsavers.org> > Subject: Origin of the term minicomputer (was Re: PDP-1 as > minicomputer [was RE: OT - sort of]) > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > Message-ID: <4C6C097E.8060908 at bitsavers.org> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > > > >> But it all depends on how you define "minicomputer" as to what > >> specifically falls in the category. > > > > Who originally created the term? marketing?? > > > > The earliest use of the term as we use it today was an ad in > Datamation announcing the (Varian) Data 520i in April, 1968. > <snip> Apparently as early as May 1987 the term minicomputer was used in the WHITE HOUSE executive offices and quoted in several newspapers, along the lines, "Without a minicomputer one really can't tell ..." Given the lack of technical expertise in Washington, this suggests a much earlier origin of the word. Tom From evan at snarc.net Wed Aug 18 13:57:59 2010 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 14:57:59 -0400 Subject: Origin of the term minicomputer (was Re: PDP-1 as ... In-Reply-To: <B496D9C87C8746C6A8A1830119C4ACFD@tegp4> References: <mailman.1.1282150803.24927.cctalk@classiccmp.org> <B496D9C87C8746C6A8A1830119C4ACFD@tegp4> Message-ID: <4C6C2D37.4080704@snarc.net> > Apparently as early as May 1987 the term minicomputer was used in the WHITE HOUSE executive offices and quoted in several newspapers, along the lines, "Without a minicomputer one really can't tell ..." > > Given the lack of technical expertise in Washington, this suggests a much earlier origin of the word. I searched on www.newspaperarchive.com a few minutes ago and saw that same article, along with a couple of others from 1967. But in most cases it's written as "mini-computer". That hyphen may make a difference. It could be newspaper editors simply deciding to hyphenate a then-unfamiliar word, or, it could be that whoever said the original quote meant it as, "Without a miniature computer," while having zero knowledge that something technically called a "minicomputer" was being born. From doc at vaxen.net Wed Aug 18 14:33:49 2010 From: doc at vaxen.net (Doc Shipley) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 14:33:49 -0500 Subject: BOUNTY: HP/UX 11i driver development Message-ID: <4C6C359D.7070106@vaxen.net> This is a bit off topic, I guess, and a repeat, but ClassicCmp is still probably the best place to ask. My company runs a bunch of HP83000 mainframes (F330 models) in product testing. We're tied to Agilent SmarTest v5.x-6.03 running on HP/UX v10.20 for test vectors. SmarTest interfaces with the test frame via an Agilent-branded fiber optic PCI adapter. The card is marked E2777B, p/n A3850-0583. It's a buffered serial adapter on a PCI bridge and that's all we know about it. SmarTest will run on HP/UX 11i, but the interface drivers will not load. We don't have source to the drivers in question, the card itself is, as far as we can discover, entirely undocumented, and neither HP nor Agilent has any interest in maintenance or further development. My company will pay a fair boatload of cash for an 11i-compatible driver. If you're interested and have the background & skills to tackle this, contact me off-list. Doc Shipley From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Aug 18 14:46:48 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 15:46:48 -0400 Subject: BOUNTY: HP/UX 11i driver development In-Reply-To: <4C6C359D.7070106@vaxen.net> References: <4C6C359D.7070106@vaxen.net> Message-ID: <4C6C38A8.6000207@neurotica.com> On 8/18/10 3:33 PM, Doc Shipley wrote: > This is a bit off topic, I guess, and a repeat, but ClassicCmp is still > probably the best place to ask. > > My company runs a bunch of HP83000 mainframes (F330 models) in product > testing. We're tied to Agilent SmarTest v5.x-6.03 running on HP/UX > v10.20 for test vectors. > > SmarTest interfaces with the test frame via an Agilent-branded fiber > optic PCI adapter. The card is marked E2777B, p/n A3850-0583. It's a > buffered serial adapter on a PCI bridge and that's all we know about it. > > SmarTest will run on HP/UX 11i, but the interface drivers will not > load. We don't have source to the drivers in question, the card itself > is, as far as we can discover, entirely undocumented, and neither HP nor > Agilent has any interest in maintenance or further development. > > My company will pay a fair boatload of cash for an 11i-compatible > driver. If you're interested and have the background & skills to tackle > this, contact me off-list. I looked into this at length when you mentioned it about a year ago, and I concluded that you're basically screwed. :-( Your only option, as far as I can see, is to try to reverse-engineer that drivers and fix whatever's preventing it from loading under 11i. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Aug 18 14:50:25 2010 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 12:50:25 -0700 Subject: Origin of the term minicomputer (was Re: PDP-1 as ... In-Reply-To: <4C6C2D37.4080704@snarc.net> References: <mailman.1.1282150803.24927.cctalk@classiccmp.org> <B496D9C87C8746C6A8A1830119C4ACFD@tegp4> <4C6C2D37.4080704@snarc.net> Message-ID: <4C6C3981.5090003@bitsavers.org> On 8/18/10 11:57 AM, Evan Koblentz wrote: > > It > could be newspaper editors simply deciding to hyphenate a > then-unfamiliar word, or, it could be that whoever said the original > quote meant it as, "Without a miniature computer," while having zero > knowledge that something technically called a "minicomputer" was being > born. > > I think this was the case. There are other examples of "mini-computer" being used where they meant "miniature computer" earlier than the example I gave, which was why I stated the Varian ad being the first occurrence I was able to find of the use of the word referring to a machine which we would consider to be a minicomputer. This, and the origin of the word "Software" are both poorly documented. From doc at vaxen.net Wed Aug 18 14:59:17 2010 From: doc at vaxen.net (Doc Shipley) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 14:59:17 -0500 Subject: BOUNTY: HP/UX 11i driver development In-Reply-To: <4C6C38A8.6000207@neurotica.com> References: <4C6C359D.7070106@vaxen.net> <4C6C38A8.6000207@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4C6C3B95.3070204@vaxen.net> On 8/18/10 2:46 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 8/18/10 3:33 PM, Doc Shipley wrote: >> This is a bit off topic, I guess, and a repeat, but ClassicCmp is still >> probably the best place to ask. >> >> My company runs a bunch of HP83000 mainframes (F330 models) in product >> testing. We're tied to Agilent SmarTest v5.x-6.03 running on HP/UX >> v10.20 for test vectors. >> >> SmarTest interfaces with the test frame via an Agilent-branded fiber >> optic PCI adapter. The card is marked E2777B, p/n A3850-0583. It's a >> buffered serial adapter on a PCI bridge and that's all we know about it. >> >> SmarTest will run on HP/UX 11i, but the interface drivers will not >> load. We don't have source to the drivers in question, the card itself >> is, as far as we can discover, entirely undocumented, and neither HP nor >> Agilent has any interest in maintenance or further development. >> >> My company will pay a fair boatload of cash for an 11i-compatible >> driver. If you're interested and have the background& skills to tackle >> this, contact me off-list. > > I looked into this at length when you mentioned it about a year ago, > and I concluded that you're basically screwed. :-( > > Your only option, as far as I can see, is to try to reverse-engineer > that drivers and fix whatever's preventing it from loading under 11i. That's the general idea. Jonathan's the only one here that possibly could do that, and he's already working 70-hour weeks.... One option we've discussed and that would be perfectly acceptable is ditching the Agilent adapter altogether. The comms protocol for the HP83000 is well-documented, and the transport looks to be standard 25Mhz multi-mode FC. If we could make some other FC adapter look right to the software, that would be even better than a new driver for an aging adapter that costs $5k on eBay.... Doc From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Aug 18 15:09:56 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 16:09:56 -0400 Subject: BOUNTY: HP/UX 11i driver development In-Reply-To: <4C6C3B95.3070204@vaxen.net> References: <4C6C359D.7070106@vaxen.net> <4C6C38A8.6000207@neurotica.com> <4C6C3B95.3070204@vaxen.net> Message-ID: <4C6C3E14.1070704@neurotica.com> On 8/18/10 3:59 PM, Doc Shipley wrote: >>> This is a bit off topic, I guess, and a repeat, but ClassicCmp is still >>> probably the best place to ask. >>> >>> My company runs a bunch of HP83000 mainframes (F330 models) in >>> product >>> testing. We're tied to Agilent SmarTest v5.x-6.03 running on HP/UX >>> v10.20 for test vectors. >>> >>> SmarTest interfaces with the test frame via an Agilent-branded fiber >>> optic PCI adapter. The card is marked E2777B, p/n A3850-0583. It's a >>> buffered serial adapter on a PCI bridge and that's all we know about it. >>> >>> SmarTest will run on HP/UX 11i, but the interface drivers will not >>> load. We don't have source to the drivers in question, the card itself >>> is, as far as we can discover, entirely undocumented, and neither HP nor >>> Agilent has any interest in maintenance or further development. >>> >>> My company will pay a fair boatload of cash for an 11i-compatible >>> driver. If you're interested and have the background& skills to tackle >>> this, contact me off-list. >> >> I looked into this at length when you mentioned it about a year ago, >> and I concluded that you're basically screwed. :-( >> >> Your only option, as far as I can see, is to try to reverse-engineer >> that drivers and fix whatever's preventing it from loading under 11i. > > That's the general idea. Jonathan's the only one here that possibly > could do that, and he's already working 70-hour weeks.... He's as sharp as they come, but I assure you he's most definitely not the only person on earth who is capable of single-stepping in assembler to reverse engineer a chunk of code. ;) > One option we've discussed and that would be perfectly acceptable is > ditching the Agilent adapter altogether. The comms protocol for the > HP83000 is well-documented, and the transport looks to be standard 25Mhz > multi-mode FC. If we could make some other FC adapter look right to the > software, that would be even better than a new driver for an aging > adapter that costs $5k on eBay.... "Standard 25MHz multi-mode FC"? There are precious few standard fiber communications modulation methods and "wire"-level protocols, and if they designed a proprietary one to artificially keep costs high and lock out competitors (which is the only real reason why they'd have done it) then there's almost no chance of them having used any of the common ones. Unless of course by "FC" you meant FibreChannel, which means it could speak the standard FC protocol but implement a proprietary subcommand set within the FC-delivered SCSI protocol. In that case, it could likely be reverse-engineered with a FibreChannel protocol analyzer. I suspect, however, that you know how much those cost. What major chips are on the board? Anything standard, or all proprietary? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From legalize at xmission.com Wed Aug 18 15:14:01 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 14:14:01 -0600 Subject: PDP-1 as minicomputer [was RE: OT - sort of] In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 18 Aug 2010 14:11:02 -0400. <AANLkTi=BGJtF=J3b_7pAk9mQiMiGK9pfk8MUH0Bcrrnb@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <E1Olp1N-0004Is-GU@shell.xmission.com> In article <AANLkTi=BGJtF=J3b_7pAk9mQiMiGK9pfk8MUH0Bcrrnb at mail.gmail.com>, William Donzelli <wdonzelli at gmail.com> writes: > Here is a picture of a very similar 3084: > > http://www.compumagic.com/shop/16MbMainFrame.html Helium filled?!?!? Must have leaked like crazy. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com/the-direct3d-graphics-pipeline/> Legalize Adulthood! <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com> From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Aug 18 15:37:44 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 16:37:44 -0400 Subject: PDP-1 as minicomputer [was RE: OT - sort of] In-Reply-To: <E1Olp1N-0004Is-GU@shell.xmission.com> References: <AANLkTi=BGJtF=J3b_7pAk9mQiMiGK9pfk8MUH0Bcrrnb@mail.gmail.com> <E1Olp1N-0004Is-GU@shell.xmission.com> Message-ID: <AANLkTi=bc3SaXcoRVC-_BcQA_LqC723xbMxHVmeJsj6V@mail.gmail.com> > Helium filled?!?!? ?Must have leaked like crazy. The Helium was really just a small player in the whole technology of the TCM. By far, most of the heat was conducted away through the ceramic substrate and the metal pistons to the water cooled cold plate. Also, I do not know if the Helium was pressurized at all, so leakage may have been pretty slow. It is too bad so few of these IBM water machines are still around. I know of only maybe a half dozen. I would still like to get one. -- Will From RichA at vulcan.com Wed Aug 18 16:23:30 2010 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 14:23:30 -0700 Subject: PDP-1 as minicomputer [was RE: OT - sort of] In-Reply-To: <AANLkTim_tB_D0+u+sNwvr6ats+QZD4yb5QXqCE2vJEE_@mail.gmail.com> References: <AANLkTi=RENp1PERbsgCgZg4nkHWqPOVKpaqmROydrTqR@mail.gmail.com> <E1OlTGe-0002jf-T5@shell.xmission.com> <CC28F43ED4708D489ABCF68D06D7F556040A5CC9EE@505DENALI.corp.vnw.com> <AANLkTim_tB_D0+u+sNwvr6ats+QZD4yb5QXqCE2vJEE_@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <CC28F43ED4708D489ABCF68D06D7F556040A5CC9F3@505DENALI.corp.vnw.com> From: William Donzelli Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2010 6:40 PM >> The Series/1 was the first entry by IBM into the minicomputer market as >> such. > 1620? 1130? 1800? S/3? S/32? S/34? None of those were marketed as a minicomputer by IBM. The Series/1 was. Thus my "as such". Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.PDPplanet.org/ http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Aug 18 16:29:38 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 17:29:38 -0400 Subject: PDP-1 as minicomputer [was RE: OT - sort of] In-Reply-To: <CC28F43ED4708D489ABCF68D06D7F556040A5CC9F3@505DENALI.corp.vnw.com> References: <AANLkTi=RENp1PERbsgCgZg4nkHWqPOVKpaqmROydrTqR@mail.gmail.com> <E1OlTGe-0002jf-T5@shell.xmission.com> <CC28F43ED4708D489ABCF68D06D7F556040A5CC9EE@505DENALI.corp.vnw.com> <AANLkTim_tB_D0+u+sNwvr6ats+QZD4yb5QXqCE2vJEE_@mail.gmail.com> <CC28F43ED4708D489ABCF68D06D7F556040A5CC9F3@505DENALI.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <AANLkTinyQMJrnfQcdainOMDUpxvgb15LXw6m8Jv5BGD2@mail.gmail.com> > None of those were marketed as a minicomputer by IBM. ?The Series/1 was. > Thus my "as such". IBM could have called them squigglethwaps, but they are still pretty much minicomputers. -- Will From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Aug 18 16:35:34 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 17:35:34 -0400 Subject: PDP-1 as minicomputer [was RE: OT - sort of] In-Reply-To: <AANLkTinyQMJrnfQcdainOMDUpxvgb15LXw6m8Jv5BGD2@mail.gmail.com> References: <AANLkTi=RENp1PERbsgCgZg4nkHWqPOVKpaqmROydrTqR@mail.gmail.com> <E1OlTGe-0002jf-T5@shell.xmission.com> <CC28F43ED4708D489ABCF68D06D7F556040A5CC9EE@505DENALI.corp.vnw.com> <AANLkTim_tB_D0+u+sNwvr6ats+QZD4yb5QXqCE2vJEE_@mail.gmail.com> <CC28F43ED4708D489ABCF68D06D7F556040A5CC9F3@505DENALI.corp.vnw.com> <AANLkTinyQMJrnfQcdainOMDUpxvgb15LXw6m8Jv5BGD2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4C6C5226.10202@neurotica.com> On 8/18/10 5:29 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >> None of those were marketed as a minicomputer by IBM. The Series/1 was. >> Thus my "as such". > > IBM could have called them squigglethwaps, but they are still pretty > much minicomputers. I'd pay real money to see the corporate grey flannel button-down IBM of that era print or utter that word in pretty much any forum. :) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From RichA at vulcan.com Wed Aug 18 16:48:04 2010 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 14:48:04 -0700 Subject: OT - sort of In-Reply-To: <4C6B48CC.1030502@brouhaha.com> References: <4C6973C3.30102@tx.rr.com> from "Charlie Carothers" at Aug 16, 10 12:22:11 pm <m1OlSs6-000J3uC@p850ug1> <CC28F43ED4708D489ABCF68D06D7F556040A5CC9EF@505DENALI.corp.vnw.com> <4C6B48CC.1030502@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <CC28F43ED4708D489ABCF68D06D7F556040A5CC9F4@505DENALI.corp.vnw.com> From: Eric Smith Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2010 7:43 PM > Rich Alderson wrote: >> PDP-14: build-it-yourself [snip] >> PDP-16: build-it-yourself [snip] Thanks for expanding. As I noted, I was writing from memory, and I never did more than a cursory glance at either of those products. >> The follow models of the PDP-10 were christened DECsystem-10 and >> DECSYSTEM-20 > Those were the system names; the processor was still called a PDP-10, > and the specific processor models were known by their option names, > KA10, KI10, KL10, and KS10. You know that, and I know that, but most people look at the external label and go from there. Someone who never heard of a PDP-1 would be unlikely to think "PDP-10" when confronted with a nameplate that read "decsystem 10" or "DECSYSTEM 20". Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.PDPplanet.org/ http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From RichA at vulcan.com Wed Aug 18 16:58:10 2010 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 14:58:10 -0700 Subject: Origin of the term minicomputer (was Re: PDP-1 as minicomputer [was RE: OT - sort of]) In-Reply-To: <4C6BB66C.19198.36EDC4@cclist.sydex.com> References: <CC28F43ED4708D489ABCF68D06D7F556040A5CC9EA@505DENALI.corp.vnw.com>, <20100817193547.I45518@shell.lmi.net>, <4C6C097E.8060908@bitsavers.org> <4C6BB66C.19198.36EDC4@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <CC28F43ED4708D489ABCF68D06D7F556040A5CC9F5@505DENALI.corp.vnw.com> From: Chuck Guzis Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 2010 10:31 AM > On 18 Aug 2010 at 9:25, Al Kossow wrote: >> The earliest use of the term as we use it today was an ad in >> Datamation announcing the (Varian) Data 520i in April, 1968. > That would, etymologically speaking, put the term more in the > American "miniskirt" (1966) camp that came over with the Mod > subculture and the Beatles, than the BMC/Morris "Mini (1959) one. > I'd suspected the auto usage was more exclusively British. The miniskirt was introduced under that name by Mary Quant in 1965. She explicitly stated that the name was influenced by the Mini. > Could we say that the minicomputer owes its origins to Carnaby > Street? By 1968 when the term was apparently used in advertising for the first time (thanks, Al!), far too many things in American marketing had been labeled "mini", so yeah, probably so. Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.PDPplanet.org/ http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Aug 18 17:35:50 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 15:35:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: PDP-1 as squigglethwap [was RE: OT - sort of] In-Reply-To: <AANLkTinyQMJrnfQcdainOMDUpxvgb15LXw6m8Jv5BGD2@mail.gmail.com> References: <AANLkTi=RENp1PERbsgCgZg4nkHWqPOVKpaqmROydrTqR@mail.gmail.com> <E1OlTGe-0002jf-T5@shell.xmission.com> <CC28F43ED4708D489ABCF68D06D7F556040A5CC9EE@505DENALI.corp.vnw.com> <AANLkTim_tB_D0+u+sNwvr6ats+QZD4yb5QXqCE2vJEE_@mail.gmail.com> <CC28F43ED4708D489ABCF68D06D7F556040A5CC9F3@505DENALI.corp.vnw.com> <AANLkTinyQMJrnfQcdainOMDUpxvgb15LXw6m8Jv5BGD2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20100818152931.U78157@shell.lmi.net> > > None of those were marketed as a minicomputer by IBM. ?The Series/1 was. > > Thus my "as such". On Wed, 18 Aug 2010, William Donzelli wrote: > IBM could have called them squigglethwaps, but they are still pretty > much minicomputers. Are ALL minicomputers squigglethwaps, or just those from IBM? -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Aug 18 17:40:05 2010 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 18:40:05 -0400 Subject: PDP-1 as minicomputer [was RE: OT - sort of] In-Reply-To: <4C6C5226.10202@neurotica.com> References: <AANLkTi=RENp1PERbsgCgZg4nkHWqPOVKpaqmROydrTqR@mail.gmail.com> <E1OlTGe-0002jf-T5@shell.xmission.com> <CC28F43ED4708D489ABCF68D06D7F556040A5CC9EE@505DENALI.corp.vnw.com> <AANLkTim_tB_D0+u+sNwvr6ats+QZD4yb5QXqCE2vJEE_@mail.gmail.com> <CC28F43ED4708D489ABCF68D06D7F556040A5CC9F3@505DENALI.corp.vnw.com> <AANLkTinyQMJrnfQcdainOMDUpxvgb15LXw6m8Jv5BGD2@mail.gmail.com> <4C6C5226.10202@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4C6C6145.8030800@gmail.com> Dave McGuire wrote: >>> None of those were marketed as a minicomputer by IBM. The Series/1 was. >>> Thus my "as such". >> >> IBM could have called them squigglethwaps, but they are still pretty >> much minicomputers. > > I'd pay real money to see the corporate grey flannel button-down IBM > of that era print or utter that word in pretty much any forum. :) How about I get my dad to put his suit, badge and pocket protector on and say it? Peace... Sridhar From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Aug 18 17:47:10 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 18:47:10 -0400 Subject: PDP-1 as minicomputer [was RE: OT - sort of] In-Reply-To: <4C6C6145.8030800@gmail.com> References: <AANLkTi=RENp1PERbsgCgZg4nkHWqPOVKpaqmROydrTqR@mail.gmail.com> <E1OlTGe-0002jf-T5@shell.xmission.com> <CC28F43ED4708D489ABCF68D06D7F556040A5CC9EE@505DENALI.corp.vnw.com> <AANLkTim_tB_D0+u+sNwvr6ats+QZD4yb5QXqCE2vJEE_@mail.gmail.com> <CC28F43ED4708D489ABCF68D06D7F556040A5CC9F3@505DENALI.corp.vnw.com> <AANLkTinyQMJrnfQcdainOMDUpxvgb15LXw6m8Jv5BGD2@mail.gmail.com> <4C6C5226.10202@neurotica.com> <4C6C6145.8030800@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4C6C62EE.4090308@neurotica.com> On 8/18/10 6:40 PM, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >>>> None of those were marketed as a minicomputer by IBM. The Series/1 >>>> was. >>>> Thus my "as such". >>> >>> IBM could have called them squigglethwaps, but they are still pretty >>> much minicomputers. >> >> I'd pay real money to see the corporate grey flannel button-down IBM >> of that era print or utter that word in pretty much any forum. :) > > How about I get my dad to put his suit, badge and pocket protector on > and say it? YES!! DO IT!! 8-) Your dad rocks. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cclist at sydex.com Wed Aug 18 17:49:06 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 15:49:06 -0700 Subject: Origin of the term minicomputer (was Re: PDP-1 as minicomputer [was RE: OT - sort of]) In-Reply-To: <CC28F43ED4708D489ABCF68D06D7F556040A5CC9F5@505DENALI.corp.vnw.com> References: <CC28F43ED4708D489ABCF68D06D7F556040A5CC9EA@505DENALI.corp.vnw.com>, <4C6BB66C.19198.36EDC4@cclist.sydex.com>, <CC28F43ED4708D489ABCF68D06D7F556040A5CC9F5@505DENALI.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <4C6C00F2.6043.15A0A7C@cclist.sydex.com> On 18 Aug 2010 at 14:58, Rich Alderson wrote: > The miniskirt was introduced under that name by Mary Quant in 1965. > She explicitly stated that the name was influenced by the Mini. I stumbled upon an old photograph showing a model wearing a miniskirt with a BMC Mini. Egad, that was a homely car! So, were there any micro-minicomputers? Midicomputers? And more to the point, which was more exciting? The miniskirt or the minicomputer? --Chuck From halarewich at gmail.com Wed Aug 18 18:04:31 2010 From: halarewich at gmail.com (Chris Halarewich) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 16:04:31 -0700 Subject: Octane video cable... In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.2.00.1008180806550.12113@grumble.deltasoft.com> References: <E1Oljsi-0004Zr-2M@shell.xmission.com> <alpine.LFD.2.00.1008180806550.12113@grumble.deltasoft.com> Message-ID: <AANLkTimjG5E5pYmQPn+v23F4CvDXAgwK0Q21g8bD+oOO@mail.gmail.com> here is a couple links that might work *HD15 Male to 13W3 Male(Sun) Cable - 6FT = $11.24* http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=102&cp_id=10203&cs_id=1020301&p_id=89&seq=1&format=2 *Sun 13W3-M to HD15-F (VGA) Video Port Adapter =$6.82* * http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=104&cp_id=10401&cs_id=1040110&p_id=71&seq=1&format=2 * *Sun 13W3-F to HD15-M (VGA) Video Port Adapter = 6.82* http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=104&cp_id=10401&cs_id=1040110&p_id=70&seq=1&format=2 On 8/18/10, Gene Buckle <geneb at deltasoft.com> wrote: > > On Wed, 18 Aug 2010, Richard wrote: > > >> In article <alpine.LFD.2.00.1008180655060.9992 at grumble.deltasoft.com>, >> Gene Buckle <geneb at deltasoft.com> writes: >> >> Does anyone here have a video cable suitable for an Octane they'd like to >>> part with? I got a complete system a few weeks ago, but no video cable. >>> :( >>> >> >> IIRC, these are fairly common as they were used on many SGI and Sun >> workstations. Its called a 13W3 cable. >> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/13W3> >> >> It's my understanding that the Sun 13W3 cable isn't wired the same as the > SGI version. > > If someone here doesn't toss you one gratis, they should be fairly >> easy and inexpensive to purchase. >> >> So far I've only found a 13W3->VGA adapter for $24. > > > g. > > -- > Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 > http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. > http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project > > ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment > A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. > http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! > From shumaker at att.net Wed Aug 18 18:18:07 2010 From: shumaker at att.net (steve shumaker) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 19:18:07 -0400 Subject: PDP-1 as minicomputer [was RE: OT - sort of] In-Reply-To: <AANLkTi=bc3SaXcoRVC-_BcQA_LqC723xbMxHVmeJsj6V@mail.gmail.com> References: <AANLkTi=BGJtF=J3b_7pAk9mQiMiGK9pfk8MUH0Bcrrnb@mail.gmail.com> <E1Olp1N-0004Is-GU@shell.xmission.com> <AANLkTi=bc3SaXcoRVC-_BcQA_LqC723xbMxHVmeJsj6V@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4C6C6A2F.1080001@att.net> what was the basic purpose of the helium? On 8/18/2010 4:37 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >> Helium filled?!?!? Must have leaked like crazy. >> > The Helium was really just a small player in the whole technology of > the TCM. By far, most of the heat was conducted away through the > ceramic substrate and the metal pistons to the water cooled cold > plate. > > Also, I do not know if the Helium was pressurized at all, so leakage > may have been pretty slow. > > It is too bad so few of these IBM water machines are still around. I > know of only maybe a half dozen. I would still like to get one. > > -- > Will > > From shumaker at att.net Wed Aug 18 18:21:53 2010 From: shumaker at att.net (steve shumaker) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 19:21:53 -0400 Subject: Origin of the term minicomputer (was Re: PDP-1 as minicomputer [was RE: OT - sort of]) In-Reply-To: <4C6C00F2.6043.15A0A7C@cclist.sydex.com> References: <CC28F43ED4708D489ABCF68D06D7F556040A5CC9EA@505DENALI.corp.vnw.com>, <4C6BB66C.19198.36EDC4@cclist.sydex.com>, <CC28F43ED4708D489ABCF68D06D7F556040A5CC9F5@505DENALI.corp.vnw.com> <4C6C00F2.6043.15A0A7C@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4C6C6B11.2070100@att.net> you weren't supposed to look at the car! On 8/18/2010 6:49 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 18 Aug 2010 at 14:58, Rich Alderson wrote: > > >> The miniskirt was introduced under that name by Mary Quant in 1965. >> She explicitly stated that the name was influenced by the Mini. >> > I stumbled upon an old photograph showing a model wearing a miniskirt > with a BMC Mini. Egad, that was a homely car! > > So, were there any micro-minicomputers? Midicomputers? And more to > the point, which was more exciting? The miniskirt or the > minicomputer? > > --Chuck > > > From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Aug 18 18:27:37 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 19:27:37 -0400 Subject: PDP-1 as minicomputer [was RE: OT - sort of] In-Reply-To: <4C6C6A2F.1080001@att.net> References: <AANLkTi=BGJtF=J3b_7pAk9mQiMiGK9pfk8MUH0Bcrrnb@mail.gmail.com> <E1Olp1N-0004Is-GU@shell.xmission.com> <AANLkTi=bc3SaXcoRVC-_BcQA_LqC723xbMxHVmeJsj6V@mail.gmail.com> <4C6C6A2F.1080001@att.net> Message-ID: <AANLkTi=-z_Td8KhQm9MBcvDK2oj5yYtSfdTTJ77Hm+YM@mail.gmail.com> > what was the basic purpose of the helium? It is pumped into the modules to fill any air gaps. Helium conducts heat well. -- Will From shumaker at att.net Wed Aug 18 18:40:45 2010 From: shumaker at att.net (steve shumaker) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 19:40:45 -0400 Subject: PDP-1 as minicomputer [was RE: OT - sort of] In-Reply-To: <AANLkTi=-z_Td8KhQm9MBcvDK2oj5yYtSfdTTJ77Hm+YM@mail.gmail.com> References: <AANLkTi=BGJtF=J3b_7pAk9mQiMiGK9pfk8MUH0Bcrrnb@mail.gmail.com> <E1Olp1N-0004Is-GU@shell.xmission.com> <AANLkTi=bc3SaXcoRVC-_BcQA_LqC723xbMxHVmeJsj6V@mail.gmail.com> <4C6C6A2F.1080001@att.net> <AANLkTi=-z_Td8KhQm9MBcvDK2oj5yYtSfdTTJ77Hm+YM@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4C6C6F7D.3010904@att.net> was thinking along those lines but wasn't sure what the conductivity was (vice air) tx On 8/18/2010 7:27 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >> what was the basic purpose of the helium? >> > It is pumped into the modules to fill any air gaps. Helium conducts heat well. > > -- > Will > > From classiccmp at vintage-computer.com Wed Aug 18 21:20:04 2010 From: classiccmp at vintage-computer.com (Erik Klein) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 19:20:04 -0700 Subject: Octane video cable... In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.2.00.1008180655060.9992@grumble.deltasoft.com> References: <BLU139-W15D39857668800C95AD9DDC99D0@phx.gbl>, <E1OlbFv-0005FM-IB@shell.xmission.com>, <20100818054150.GA16048@Update.UU.SE> <BLU139-W353633CFF9DD3231665DFDC99D0@phx.gbl> <alpine.LFD.2.00.1008180655060.9992@grumble.deltasoft.com> Message-ID: <041501cb3f45$0ab02380$20106a80$@com> Is this it? http://marketplace.vintage-computer.com/auction_details.php?auction_search=1 &auction_id=107544 -- ----- Erik Klein www.vintage-computer.com www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum - The Vintage Computer Forums marketplace.vintage-computer.com - The Vintage Computer and Gaming Marketplace -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Gene Buckle Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 2010 6:56 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Octane video cable... Does anyone here have a video cable suitable for an Octane they'd like to part with? I got a complete system a few weeks ago, but no video cable. :( tnx! g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Aug 18 21:31:20 2010 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 19:31:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Octane video cable... In-Reply-To: <041501cb3f45$0ab02380$20106a80$@com> References: <BLU139-W15D39857668800C95AD9DDC99D0@phx.gbl>, <E1OlbFv-0005FM-IB@shell.xmission.com>, <20100818054150.GA16048@Update.UU.SE> <BLU139-W353633CFF9DD3231665DFDC99D0@phx.gbl> <alpine.LFD.2.00.1008180655060.9992@grumble.deltasoft.com> <041501cb3f45$0ab02380$20106a80$@com> Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.00.1008181930560.32196@grumble.deltasoft.com> On Wed, 18 Aug 2010, Erik Klein wrote: > Is this it? > > http://marketplace.vintage-computer.com/auction_details.php?auction_search=1 > &auction_id=107544 > > Nope, that's for a Sun. The SGI cable is different. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Aug 18 22:04:22 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 20:04:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: interactive fiction via gopherspace Message-ID: <201008190304.o7J34NcA020328@floodgap.com> gopher://gopher.thurman.org.uk/1/advent/ No explanation or even instructions should be needed. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- A battle avoided cannot be lost. -- Sun Tzu -------------------------------- From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Wed Aug 18 23:27:04 2010 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 21:27:04 -0700 Subject: Mostly OT: Looking for Manual/Schematic for Wavetek 1901C In-Reply-To: <m1OlTMp-000J4CC@p850ug1> References: <m1OlTMp-000J4CC@p850ug1> Message-ID: <4C6CB298.9050703@mail.msu.edu> Tony Duell wrote: >> Snagged a Wavetek 1901C last week. This is a 12" oscilloscope display >> (X/Y+intensity input), I was hoping to use it as a point-plotting/vector >> display for a couple of little computer projects of mine. (Or maybe >> just hooking an Asteroids board up to it... :). It's in pretty good >> shape (has more screen burn than I think I've ever seen in a few spots, >> though.) I fixed a couple of cold solder joints and it's now mostly >> working, except something appears to be going slightly wrong in the Y >> deflection or amplification (it's getting clipped/distorted depending on >> the gain and input intensity). >> >> Anyone have a service manual or schematic for this thing or know good >> sources for such things? > > Often the X and Y channels are very similar, if not identical, for > obvious reasons. I don;t know how it's constructed, but if you can > identify corresponding parts of the X and Y channels, then you might be > able to compare signals between them to track down the faulty part. Good call -- there's a few areas that are obviously identical. The real fun will be taking out the main PCB to work on it, this thing doesn't have the most modular design. > > Does this unit use electrostatic or electromagnetic deflection? I'm not sure -- what are telltale signs of electrostatic vs. electromagnetic? I'm fairly sure at this point that the actual deflection is working OK -- I can use the vertical/horizontal positioning pots to move the waveform anywhere onscreen and there's no distortion as a result. The distortion seems to be related to whatever's coming out of the amplifier (is that the right term in this context?). If I input a sine wave with 1V amplitude to X/Y and set the gain to 1V/Div the display is fine. If I change the gain to .01V/Div the tops of the sinewave get oddly distorted -- past a certain point the top of the displayed oval jumps up as if the Y value is getting forced to some maximum value. It's difficult to describe. I have taken a couple of pictures of an example, they're at: http://yahozna.dyndns.org/scratch/osc/ Since I know your computing setup is not optimized for web-browsing, here's an ASCII diagram (apologies for the crudity) Good: __ / \ | | \__/ Bad: _ | | | | _/ | / | | | \__/ - Josh > > -tony > From bruce at Wild-Hare.com Wed Aug 18 09:46:15 2010 From: bruce at Wild-Hare.com (Bruce) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 08:46:15 -0600 Subject: PDP-1 as minicomputer [was RE: OT - sort of] References: <AANLkTi=7e7EsiL=31Hcgdv3i40voPnsnpomg35oZbL6w@mail.gmail.com><E1OlUeU-0002Bi-HQ@shell.xmission.com><AANLkTi=5hwDMPFjqhobXzRtLja_Q_jDHvC0Fu_+eV-hM@mail.gmail.com> <FF6AB92D97A23A409701CDBF66F03FCD03DC3E6ECE@505fuji> Message-ID: <00fc01cb3ee4$1c0757e0$6801a8c0@linksys> The correct answer is (b) (I do not have a copy of the ad) Bruce ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ian King" <IanK at vulcan.com> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2010 05:04 PM Subject: RE: PDP-1 as minicomputer [was RE: OT - sort of] > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of William Donzelli > Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2010 3:51 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: PDP-1 as minicomputer [was RE: OT - sort of] > > > How about Series/1? > > There is a classic Data General ad that ran when IBM was introducing > the S/1 to "legitimize the minicomputer market". The Data General ad > said "The bastards say, welcome". > > Bruce Ray may be looking for this ad for a scan. > > -- > Will I'm almost certain I've seen that ad, which either means (a) Bruce already has it or (b) I'm older than I realize. -- Ian -------------- next part -------------- Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.851 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3077 - Release Date: 08/17/10 00:35:00 From jws at jwsss.com Wed Aug 18 18:56:03 2010 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 16:56:03 -0700 Subject: PDP-1 MCM Modules In-Reply-To: <4C6C6A2F.1080001@att.net> References: <AANLkTi=BGJtF=J3b_7pAk9mQiMiGK9pfk8MUH0Bcrrnb@mail.gmail.com> <E1Olp1N-0004Is-GU@shell.xmission.com> <AANLkTi=bc3SaXcoRVC-_BcQA_LqC723xbMxHVmeJsj6V@mail.gmail.com> <4C6C6A2F.1080001@att.net> Message-ID: <4C6C7313.1070402@jwsss.com> > what was the basic purpose of the helium? > > On 8/18/2010 4:37 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >>> Helium filled?!?!? Must have leaked like crazy. >> The Helium was really just a small player in the whole technology of >> the TCM. By far, most of the heat was conducted away through the >> ceramic substrate and the metal pistons to the water cooled cold >> plate. This link has a paper by IBM and Honeywell describing MCM's which used the helium in discussion here. All of the other discussions I could find are behind various paywalls (ieee, elsevier, aip, etc.) which I won't pay for. Thnaks to whoever hindawi is for putting it where it is in google, and also accessible. this one is apparantly open for reading http://downloads.hindawi.com/journals/apec/1982/204239.pdf BTW, I googled for this, and it was on the first page, but there are other articles "ibm mcm modules helium" Jim From c.murray.mccullough at gmail.com Wed Aug 18 19:49:53 2010 From: c.murray.mccullough at gmail.com (Murray McCullough) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 20:49:53 -0400 Subject: Origin of the term minicomputer (was Re: PDP-1 as ... Message-ID: <AANLkTin53_ZB9RQ7Q_idpwZXp9hqUo=S5pVNE_paJbUm@mail.gmail.com> It?s my understanding, and I stand to be corrected, that mini, hyphenated or otherwise, simply meant a small computer system that preceded the microcomputer era. Granted this, the term means different-things-to-different-people, the consensus seems to be that the term mini means smaller than a mainframe and matches comparable words from the 60?s, i.e., mini-skirt, et al. As a(n) historian I treat it as a cultural phenomena rather than just a purely technical or technological definition. Whether purists agree is indeed debatable! Murray-- From ama at ugr.es Thu Aug 19 09:19:10 2010 From: ama at ugr.es (Angel Martin Alganza) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 16:19:10 +0200 Subject: PDP-1 movies In-Reply-To: <4C69C2CF.50503@tx.rr.com> References: <4C69C2CF.50503@tx.rr.com> Message-ID: <20100819141910.GA12366@darwin.ugr.es> Hello Charlie, On Mon, Aug 16, 2010 at 05:59:27PM -0500, Charlie Carothers wrote: > I was just wondering if anyone else is able to view the 3 movies near > the bottom of http://pdp-1.computerhistory.org/pdp-1/index.php?f=theme&s=2 No problem here watching any of the movies using Uzbl on Debian GNU/Linux. Regards, ?ngel From dkelvey at hotmail.com Thu Aug 19 09:41:57 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 07:41:57 -0700 Subject: PDP-1 MCM Modules In-Reply-To: <4C6C7313.1070402@jwsss.com> References: <AANLkTi=BGJtF=J3b_7pAk9mQiMiGK9pfk8MUH0Bcrrnb@mail.gmail.com> <E1Olp1N-0004Is-GU@shell.xmission.com> <AANLkTi=bc3SaXcoRVC-_BcQA_LqC723xbMxHVmeJsj6V@mail.gmail.com>, <4C6C6A2F.1080001@att.net>, <4C6C7313.1070402@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <SNT129-W590A09FC0C308C7F6C1AE4A39E0@phx.gbl> > From: jws at jwsss.com > To: > Subject: Re: PDP-1 MCM Modules > > > what was the basic purpose of the helium? > > > > On 8/18/2010 4:37 PM, William Donzelli wrote: > >>> Helium filled?!?!? Must have leaked like crazy. > >> The Helium was really just a small player in the whole technology of > >> the TCM. By far, most of the heat was conducted away through the > >> ceramic substrate and the metal pistons to the water cooled cold > >> plate. > This link has a paper by IBM and Honeywell describing MCM's which > used the helium in discussion here. > > All of the other discussions I could find are behind various paywalls (ieee, > elsevier, aip, etc.) which I won't pay for. Thnaks to whoever hindawi is > for putting it where it is in google, and also accessible. > > this one is apparantly open for reading > > http://downloads.hindawi.com/journals/apec/1982/204239.pdf > > BTW, I googled for this, and it was on the first page, but there are other > articles > > "ibm mcm modules helium" > > Jim Hi Although there is the heat transfer, we used to use helium in our MCM packages when at HaL computers. I was always told that we did it for leak detecting. They had a helium sniffer ( small mass spec ) after sealing the part. Dwight From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Aug 19 09:44:37 2010 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 09:44:37 -0500 Subject: Serial interfaces (was Re: Any former Psion 5 owners out there?) In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikQDmDao1UfuhfPb4rEAqgPwNKA22FxLZyfwse4@mail.gmail.c om> References: <AANLkTik7+jqWhvuQwx9HEPWhCq9Bz8nFmEH-Tb7LUHmH@mail.gmail.com> <m1OclC7-000J4FC@p850ug1> <AANLkTikQDmDao1UfuhfPb4rEAqgPwNKA22FxLZyfwse4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <201008191444.o7JEilpf079991@billY.EZWIND.NET> At 03:59 PM 7/24/2010, Liam Proven wrote: >The next jump will be more interesting: 32-bit OSs basically can't >usefully handle >4GB of RAM, nor can the main ones handle >2GB drives. >Both are becoming common. Sure you meant "terabyte" not "gigabyte". The 2 TB drives are certainly more popular and common because they're getting close to $100. - John From cclist at sydex.com Thu Aug 19 11:43:49 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 09:43:49 -0700 Subject: Origin of the term minicomputer (was Re: PDP-1 as ... In-Reply-To: <AANLkTin53_ZB9RQ7Q_idpwZXp9hqUo=S5pVNE_paJbUm@mail.gmail.com> References: <AANLkTin53_ZB9RQ7Q_idpwZXp9hqUo=S5pVNE_paJbUm@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4C6CFCD5.20102.233CC0@cclist.sydex.com> Here's another one, "midicomputer". A web search yields a lot of repetitions of the unhelpful definition (between a mainframe and a mini) and references in a couple of papers to various systems as such (e.g. VAX 11/780 and PDP-11/40). Did any manufacturer ever use the term to describe its own products? ...and I found this quote in an online buyers' guide: "Instead of saying "maxicomputer", most computerists says "mainframe", which is an old-fashioned term; but I?ll say "maxicomputer", which is more modern and easier to understand." Computers and hemlines... --Chuck From lproven at gmail.com Thu Aug 19 13:21:20 2010 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 19:21:20 +0100 Subject: Serial interfaces (was Re: Any former Psion 5 owners out there?) In-Reply-To: <201008191444.o7JEilpf079991@billY.EZWIND.NET> References: <AANLkTik7+jqWhvuQwx9HEPWhCq9Bz8nFmEH-Tb7LUHmH@mail.gmail.com> <m1OclC7-000J4FC@p850ug1> <AANLkTikQDmDao1UfuhfPb4rEAqgPwNKA22FxLZyfwse4@mail.gmail.com> <201008191444.o7JEilpf079991@billY.EZWIND.NET> Message-ID: <AANLkTik4fK-xj7LEbpHOO6LO2bMzDDkYtXtbwmZbJu+t@mail.gmail.com> On 19 August 2010 15:44, John Foust <jfoust at threedee.com> wrote: > At 03:59 PM 7/24/2010, Liam Proven wrote: >>The next jump will be more interesting: 32-bit OSs basically can't >>usefully handle >4GB of RAM, nor can the main ones handle >2GB drives. >>Both are becoming common. > > Sure you meant "terabyte" not "gigabyte". ?The 2 TB drives are certainly > more popular and common because they're getting close to $100. Blimey, that was a month ago! But yes, you're right, I meant TB not GB in the latter case. -- Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Aug 19 14:16:51 2010 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 12:16:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Octane video cable... In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimjG5E5pYmQPn+v23F4CvDXAgwK0Q21g8bD+oOO@mail.gmail.com> References: <E1Oljsi-0004Zr-2M@shell.xmission.com> <alpine.LFD.2.00.1008180806550.12113@grumble.deltasoft.com> <AANLkTimjG5E5pYmQPn+v23F4CvDXAgwK0Q21g8bD+oOO@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.00.1008191216040.31319@grumble.deltasoft.com> On Wed, 18 Aug 2010, Chris Halarewich wrote: > here is a couple links that might work > > *HD15 Male to 13W3 Male(Sun) Cable - 6FT = $11.24* > http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=102&cp_id=10203&cs_id=1020301&p_id=89&seq=1&format=2 > > *Sun 13W3-M to HD15-F (VGA) Video Port Adapter =$6.82* > * > http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=104&cp_id=10401&cs_id=1040110&p_id=71&seq=1&format=2 > * > > *Sun 13W3-F to HD15-M (VGA) Video Port Adapter = 6.82* > http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=104&cp_id=10401&cs_id=1040110&p_id=70&seq=1&format=2 > Sun cables don't work from what I've been told. Thanks for the suggestion though! A list member has found one for me. Thanks all. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From IanK at vulcan.com Thu Aug 19 15:47:21 2010 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 13:47:21 -0700 Subject: Origin of the term minicomputer (was Re: PDP-1 as ... In-Reply-To: <4C6CFCD5.20102.233CC0@cclist.sydex.com> References: <AANLkTin53_ZB9RQ7Q_idpwZXp9hqUo=S5pVNE_paJbUm@mail.gmail.com> <4C6CFCD5.20102.233CC0@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <FF6AB92D97A23A409701CDBF66F03FCD03DC3E6EDE@505fuji> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chuck Guzis > Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2010 9:44 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Origin of the term minicomputer (was Re: PDP-1 as ... > > Here's another one, "midicomputer". > > A web search yields a lot of repetitions of the unhelpful definition > (between a mainframe and a mini) and references in a couple of papers > to various systems as such (e.g. VAX 11/780 and PDP-11/40). > > Did any manufacturer ever use the term to describe its own products? > > ...and I found this quote in an online buyers' guide: > > "Instead of saying "maxicomputer", most computerists says > "mainframe", which is an old-fashioned term; but I?ll say > "maxicomputer", which is more modern and easier to understand." > > Computers and hemlines... > > ISTR a discussion in a trade magazine back in the '80s of the distinction between a superminicomputer and a minisupercomputer. Ah, marketeers, aren't they cute? -- Ian From jlobocki at gmail.com Thu Aug 19 14:42:26 2010 From: jlobocki at gmail.com (joe lobocki) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 14:42:26 -0500 Subject: Octane video cable... In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.2.00.1008181930560.32196@grumble.deltasoft.com> References: <BLU139-W15D39857668800C95AD9DDC99D0@phx.gbl> <E1OlbFv-0005FM-IB@shell.xmission.com> <20100818054150.GA16048@Update.UU.SE> <BLU139-W353633CFF9DD3231665DFDC99D0@phx.gbl> <alpine.LFD.2.00.1008180655060.9992@grumble.deltasoft.com> <041501cb3f45$0ab02380$20106a80$@com> <alpine.LFD.2.00.1008181930560.32196@grumble.deltasoft.com> Message-ID: <AANLkTinJzHpXfh=abC0yyk+kOKVQgh3n-vY=U5Q+W05n@mail.gmail.com> hmmm, I used an adapter off ebay labeled for SUN to VGA, used it on every single machine up to the octane without an issue, but i couldn't get my dell CRT to work with it, only my samsung syncmaster710n LCD. it must be more tolerant of sync on green... On Wed, Aug 18, 2010 at 9:31 PM, Gene Buckle <geneb at deltasoft.com> wrote: > On Wed, 18 Aug 2010, Erik Klein wrote: > > Is this it? >> >> >> http://marketplace.vintage-computer.com/auction_details.php?auction_search=1 >> &auction_id=107544 >> >> >> Nope, that's for a Sun. The SGI cable is different. > > > g. > > -- > Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 > http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. > http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project > > ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment > A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. > http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! > From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Aug 19 16:36:31 2010 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 14:36:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Octane video cable... In-Reply-To: <AANLkTinJzHpXfh=abC0yyk+kOKVQgh3n-vY=U5Q+W05n@mail.gmail.com> References: <BLU139-W15D39857668800C95AD9DDC99D0@phx.gbl> <E1OlbFv-0005FM-IB@shell.xmission.com> <20100818054150.GA16048@Update.UU.SE> <BLU139-W353633CFF9DD3231665DFDC99D0@phx.gbl> <alpine.LFD.2.00.1008180655060.9992@grumble.deltasoft.com> <041501cb3f45$0ab02380$20106a80$@com> <alpine.LFD.2.00.1008181930560.32196@grumble.deltasoft.com> <AANLkTinJzHpXfh=abC0yyk+kOKVQgh3n-vY=U5Q+W05n@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.00.1008191435520.3274@grumble.deltasoft.com> On Thu, 19 Aug 2010, joe lobocki wrote: > hmmm, I used an adapter off ebay labeled for SUN to VGA, used it on every > single machine up to the octane without an issue, but i couldn't get my dell > CRT to work with it, only my samsung syncmaster710n LCD. it must be more > tolerant of sync on green... > The monitor I got with the machine is a 25" CRT from SGI, so I suspect it's picky about the 13W3 connector. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From cclist at sydex.com Thu Aug 19 16:39:46 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 14:39:46 -0700 Subject: Origin of the term minicomputer (was Re: PDP-1 as ... In-Reply-To: <FF6AB92D97A23A409701CDBF66F03FCD03DC3E6EDE@505fuji> References: <AANLkTin53_ZB9RQ7Q_idpwZXp9hqUo=S5pVNE_paJbUm@mail.gmail.com>, <4C6CFCD5.20102.233CC0@cclist.sydex.com>, <FF6AB92D97A23A409701CDBF66F03FCD03DC3E6EDE@505fuji> Message-ID: <4C6D4232.30797.1322DD6@cclist.sydex.com> On 19 Aug 2010 at 13:47, Ian King wrote: > ISTR a discussion in a trade magazine back in the '80s of the > distinction between a superminicomputer and a minisupercomputer. Ah, > marketeers, aren't they cute? -- Ian Yes, they are, Ian! Just don't give in to the temptation to bring one home; they have voracious appetites and you will soon find yourself destitute... --Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Aug 19 15:35:05 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 21:35:05 +0100 (BST) Subject: Origin of the term minicomputer (was Re: PDP-1 as minicomputer In-Reply-To: <4C6C00F2.6043.15A0A7C@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Aug 18, 10 03:49:06 pm Message-ID: <m1OmBpS-000J3xC@p850ug1> > I stumbled upon an old photograph showing a model wearing a miniskirt > with a BMC Mini. Egad, that was a homely car! To go totally off-topic. there was a version of the Mini (car) with an automatic transmission. The transmisison was built in the engine oil sump, and used the engine oil as the hydraulic fluid. Apparently it didn't work all that well, but I think it's amazing they got it to work at all... [FWIW, the full, official Mini workshop manual is on my bookshelf...] > > So, were there any micro-minicomputers? Midicomputers? And more to Ias a 'MIDIcomputer' a computer with a certain current-loop serial interface? You know, like the Atari ST ? (Sorry, could NOT resist) > the point, which was more exciting? The miniskirt or the > minicomputer? You'rs asking _that_ on classiccmp? Well, cosnidiering I own between 10 and 20 minicomoputers and not one miniskirt I would think the answer for me is obvious. Now, if you want to ask about what you find inside a minicomputer .vs. what you find inside a miniskirt, well, that's a different question. But I think I'd still go for the former... I was thinking about the commonly used definitions of 'minicomputer' and 'microcomputer. As with all such divisions, there are grey areas.... For example : What do you consider the DPP11/23 and PDP11/73 to be? (Remember the CPU is a small number of custom LSI chips). And what about the Pro 350 and Pro 380 machines. Point being, they're desktop boxes abotu the size of a PC, but have the same CPU chips as the 11/23 and 11/73 (F11 and J11 chipsets) And what about my favourite, the HP9830? It's a desktop all-in-one machine. But the CPU is lots of small chips. There are 4 boards which are often considered to be the CPU boards, conitaing about 20 chips each, mostlu TTL, but with 9 256*4 PROMs. And there are some bits of the CPU (such as the memroy address and data registers) on other PCBs in the machine/ So perhaps 100 chips for the CPU in total, the most complex being things like dual 8-bit SISO shift registers, or the PROMs. By most defintions. that's a minicomputer, but it sure feels strange calling it one... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Aug 19 15:48:19 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 21:48:19 +0100 (BST) Subject: Mostly OT: Looking for Manual/Schematic for Wavetek 1901C In-Reply-To: <4C6CB298.9050703@mail.msu.edu> from "Josh Dersch" at Aug 18, 10 09:27:04 pm Message-ID: <m1OmC2D-000J43C@p850ug1> > >> Snagged a Wavetek 1901C last week. This is a 12" oscilloscope display > >> (X/Y+intensity input), I was hoping to use it as a point-plotting/vector [...] > > Often the X and Y channels are very similar, if not identical, for > > obvious reasons. I don;t know how it's constructed, but if you can > > identify corresponding parts of the X and Y channels, then you might be > > able to compare signals between them to track down the faulty part. > Good call -- there's a few areas that are obviously identical. The real > fun will be taking out the main PCB to work on it, this thing doesn't > have the most modular design. It's an old trick, like using the working channel of a stereo audio amplifier as a comparision for the defective one. Or using one beam of a 'scope to find fualts in the circuits for the other beam (Tektronix suggest this...) But it's best not to swap parts between the 2 identical sections unless you know what you are doing. Particularly in power amplifiers where a fault in the driver stanges can damage the output devices. Swapping the driver boards over can make you end up with no good output transistors, and assorted other blown components.. > > > > > Does this unit use electrostatic or electromagnetic deflection? > I'm not sure -- what are telltale signs of electrostatic vs. > electromagnetic? I'm fairly sure at this point that the actual An electromagentic CRT will have a deflection yoke -- coils -- fitted around the CRT neck. An electrostatic CRT won't, the deflection is achieved by internal deflection plates (electrodes), but you might find pins coming through the glass neck just behind the flare with wires connected to them (this is to get a short, low-inductance, conenction to the plates. An electrostatic CRT will normally have a smaller deflection angle (and thus a longer neck for a given screen size) than an electormagnetic CRT. In geenraly it's easier to get a good high frequency response from an electrostatic CRT. Which is why most (if not all) analouge 'scopes are of this type. Vector XY displays can be either -- for example the DEC ones tend to be electromagneitc, the HP ones electrostatic. > deflection is working OK -- I can use the vertical/horizontal > positioning pots to move the waveform anywhere onscreen and there's no > distortion as a result. The distortion seems to be related to > whatever's coming out of the amplifier (is that the right term in this 'Amplifier' sounds OK to me. It owuld be interesting to know at what point in the circuit the deflection controls operate. It may not be part of the output stage. In which case you know the stages after the deflection cotnrol are working fine. > context?). If I input a sine wave with 1V amplitude to X/Y and set the > gain to 1V/Div the display is fine. If I change the gain to .01V/Div > the tops of the sinewave get oddly distorted -- past a certain point the > top of the displayed oval jumps up as if the Y value is getting forced > to some maximum value. It's difficult to describe. I have taken a > couple of pictures of an example, they're at: My first thought (although I can't really see why) is some kind of push-pull stange where only one device is working correctly. But as you know by know, withoug a scheamtic it's going to be hard to find... -tony From nigel.d.williams at gmail.com Thu Aug 19 18:12:05 2010 From: nigel.d.williams at gmail.com (Nigel Williams) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 09:12:05 +1000 Subject: Origin of the term minicomputer (was Re: PDP-1 as minicomputer In-Reply-To: <m1OmBpS-000J3xC@p850ug1> References: <4C6C00F2.6043.15A0A7C@cclist.sydex.com> <m1OmBpS-000J3xC@p850ug1> Message-ID: <AANLkTim-gQ3__Mrj4cyX=GN5iTAH9gsVgniPSqAroUN4@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, Aug 20, 2010 at 6:35 AM, Tony Duell <ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk> wrote: > What do you consider the DPP11/23 and PDP11/73 to be? (Remember the CPU is > a small number of custom LSI chips). > Never fear, the DEC marketing crowd "fixed" that one too, they were "Supermicrosystems", as per the handbook (1986) which covered the MicroVAX I,II, Micro PDP11/23,73,83. http://www.science.uva.nl/museum/DEChandbooks.html From lproven at gmail.com Thu Aug 19 18:21:36 2010 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 00:21:36 +0100 Subject: Free Apple Mac LC, London Message-ID: <AANLkTinqrMKEAMdWDs+WL6O2SgRGYiSGqeCbc6zDgYQY@mail.gmail.com> Anyone want to give this a home before I recycle it? Original Mac LC - 68020, MacOS 6-7.5. Doesn't boot, but that might be the dead battery. I've checked; all my spares are dead, too. 40MB SCSI hard disk & I suspect 2MB RAM / 256KB VRAM. http://lowendmac.com/lc/macintosh-lc.html I might even deliver if it's inside the greater London area. Ask me nicely! Keyboard & mouse can be supplied with it. You've very welcome to a monitor too, but if you want one of them, you'll have to collect it. -- Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From nigel.d.williams at gmail.com Thu Aug 19 18:48:29 2010 From: nigel.d.williams at gmail.com (Nigel Williams) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 09:48:29 +1000 Subject: Romania: complete PDP-11/93 on offer for $ Message-ID: <AANLkTikajpexj1NFmLNmV0pPZkEdmAU+=OKodpBo46mP@mail.gmail.com> As I have a webpage (www.retroComputingTasmania.com<http://www.retrocomputingtasmania.com/>) describing my attempts to resurrect an PDP 11/93 I was contacted by a company from Resita, Romania who have just decommissioned an 11/93 in operation since 1993; it includes 5 DEC VT terminals and a non-functioning line printer. They describe it as a "PDP 11/93 193 QZ-D3, model HB9642- JB" They are inviting offers for this system, in their words "...for a fair price proposal.". Cellphone quality pictures sent to me are linked here: http://imgur.com/Hj6fR http://imgur.com/CJU3q http://imgur.com/docPG For my curiosity can anyone tell me what the cabinet on the right is likely to contain? is it disk expansion? Contact me off-list if you want to see the original emails. Please contact Zoltan Korka (zkorka AtThisDomain resitareductoare.com) www.resitareductoare.com From lproven at gmail.com Thu Aug 19 19:30:51 2010 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 01:30:51 +0100 Subject: Romania: complete PDP-11/93 on offer for $ In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikajpexj1NFmLNmV0pPZkEdmAU+=OKodpBo46mP@mail.gmail.com> References: <AANLkTikajpexj1NFmLNmV0pPZkEdmAU+=OKodpBo46mP@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <AANLkTim6iKRb67-Emb3+C_K7dPJPWG2yhBVBNMR-=xiC@mail.gmail.com> On 20 August 2010 00:48, Nigel Williams <nigel.d.williams at gmail.com> wrote: > As I have a webpage > (www.retroComputingTasmania.com<http://www.retrocomputingtasmania.com/>) > describing my attempts to resurrect an PDP 11/93 I was contacted by a > company from Resita, Romania who have just decommissioned an 11/93 in > operation since 1993; it includes 5 DEC VT terminals and a non-functioning > line printer. > > They describe it as a "PDP 11/93 193 QZ-D3, model HB9642- JB" > > They are inviting offers for this system, in their words "...for a fair > price proposal.". > > Cellphone quality pictures sent to me are linked here: > > http://imgur.com/Hj6fR > http://imgur.com/CJU3q > http://imgur.com/docPG > > For my curiosity can anyone tell me what the cabinet on the right is likely > to contain? is it disk expansion? > > Contact me off-list if you want to see the original emails. > > Please contact Zoltan Korka (zkorka AtThisDomain resitareductoare.com) > www.resitareductoare.com St?phane! To the Batmobile! :?) -- Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From nigel.d.williams at gmail.com Thu Aug 19 19:48:26 2010 From: nigel.d.williams at gmail.com (Nigel Williams) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 10:48:26 +1000 Subject: Romania: complete PDP-11/93 on offer for $ In-Reply-To: <AANLkTim6iKRb67-Emb3+C_K7dPJPWG2yhBVBNMR-=xiC@mail.gmail.com> References: <AANLkTikajpexj1NFmLNmV0pPZkEdmAU+=OKodpBo46mP@mail.gmail.com> <AANLkTim6iKRb67-Emb3+C_K7dPJPWG2yhBVBNMR-=xiC@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <AANLkTinJzK1F2vKg15NDypc_4tWf8JqmpEYQsRDm8-QS@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, Aug 20, 2010 at 10:30 AM, Liam Proven <lproven at gmail.com> wrote: > St?phane! To the Batmobile! :?) > > Excellent :-) a road-trip to Romania would have to be exciting, take lots of pictures! I see from wikipedia that "...Romania has one of the largest areas of undisturbed forest in Europe." and "...including 60% and 40% of all European brown bears and wolves, respectively." From stephane.tsacas at gmail.com Thu Aug 19 20:01:55 2010 From: stephane.tsacas at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?St=E9phane_Tsacas?=) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 03:01:55 +0200 Subject: Romania: complete PDP-11/93 on offer for $ In-Reply-To: <AANLkTim6iKRb67-Emb3+C_K7dPJPWG2yhBVBNMR-=xiC@mail.gmail.com> References: <AANLkTikajpexj1NFmLNmV0pPZkEdmAU+=OKodpBo46mP@mail.gmail.com> <AANLkTim6iKRb67-Emb3+C_K7dPJPWG2yhBVBNMR-=xiC@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <AANLkTikzB_8Av6-Lt5xYM3KvJwnTHq0uUcbiDGotMtKv@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, Aug 20, 2010 at 02:30, Liam Proven <lproven at gmail.com> wrote: > On 20 August 2010 00:48, Nigel Williams <nigel.d.williams at gmail.com> > wrote: > ... > St?phane! To the Batmobile! :?) > > Ready when you are buddy! Let's go! BTW, I'm looking for at least one GPIB cable and a GPIB PCI card or usb2gpib or ethernet2gpib converter. I'am in Paris. -- Stephane http:/DECpicted.blogspot.com From silent700 at gmail.com Thu Aug 19 20:10:34 2010 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 20:10:34 -0500 Subject: Romania: complete PDP-11/93 on offer for $ In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikzB_8Av6-Lt5xYM3KvJwnTHq0uUcbiDGotMtKv@mail.gmail.com> References: <AANLkTikajpexj1NFmLNmV0pPZkEdmAU+=OKodpBo46mP@mail.gmail.com> <AANLkTim6iKRb67-Emb3+C_K7dPJPWG2yhBVBNMR-=xiC@mail.gmail.com> <AANLkTikzB_8Av6-Lt5xYM3KvJwnTHq0uUcbiDGotMtKv@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <AANLkTi=4k_h4P_QqfV6k00CFWOmX_2bKNvm-cQiR5L2g@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, Aug 19, 2010 at 8:01 PM, St?phane Tsacas <stephane.tsacas at gmail.com> > > > Ready when you are buddy! Let's go! Watch the corners when hauling the PDP along this route: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transf%C4%83g%C4%83r%C4%83%C5%9Fan And yes, I only know about it because of Top Gear ;) -- j From csquared3 at tx.rr.com Thu Aug 19 22:05:16 2010 From: csquared3 at tx.rr.com (Charlie Carothers) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 22:05:16 -0500 Subject: PDP-1 as minicomputer - and were there midi's in this galaxy? In-Reply-To: <FF6AB92D97A23A409701CDBF66F03FCD03DC3E6ECD@505fuji> References: <AANLkTi=RENp1PERbsgCgZg4nkHWqPOVKpaqmROydrTqR@mail.gmail.com>, <AANLkTi=L4hDaWSFPyO6k4RKjogB23j153gaDOSGyJyk1@mail.gmail.com>, <SNT129-W46023395357A7CC046E8AA39C0@phx.gbl> <4C6AAD20.2112.1A44E15@cclist.sydex.com> <FF6AB92D97A23A409701CDBF66F03FCD03DC3E6ECD@505fuji> Message-ID: <4C6DF0EC.2080607@tx.rr.com> Ian King wrote: >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- >> bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chuck Guzis >> Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2010 3:39 PM >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >> Subject: RE: PDP-1 as minicomputer [was RE: OT - sort of] >> >> On 17 Aug 2010 at 15:14, dwight elvey wrote: >> >>> IBM had a series of small computers they called minis that used >>> water cooling. These where about the size of three standard desk, >>> end-to-end. >> Is it safe to say that there were no minicomputers called as such >> before 1960, simply owing the etymology? The BMC Mini auto dates >> from 1960 or so and the miniskirt, from 1966. >> >> With the PDP-1, I wonder if the the "mini" applied more to cost than >> physical size. >> > > This is probably one of the most problematic questions I try to answer, far too often: why is X a minicomputer and not something else? I think of a minicomputer as a machine designed to not require an operator staff, designed for direct interaction between the user and the computer (rather than batch operation), and designed for a *relatively* small resource footprint (the PDP-1 required a LOT less resources than a 7090). There is a lot of fuzz around all of these factors. Is a VAX-11 a minicomputer? It takes three-phase power and was intended to serve as a large timeshared system. There is a mechanism to run batch jobs. There was a role defined for the "system manager" who maintained various aspects of the OS environment. However, at the same time IBM's product line consisted of machines that still cost ten times as much, could NOT be meaningfully maintained without an operations staff and were fundamentally designed for batch processing. The VAX-11 was "mini" by comparison. It is feasible for one person to operate and use a VAX; the question in the context of a VAX-11 is an economic one, not a question of operational overhead. > > Consider that when IBM transistorized the 709, they did NOT build a smaller computer based on the increased functional density of the transistor. They built a large computer with more capability. In contrast, the PDP-1 was intended to be small enough that it wasn't a perceived economic absurdity for it to be used single-user. > > For counterpoint, the PDP-10 was never intended to be anything other than a mainframe-class machine. Its capabilities, capacity and footprint all served as direct competition to System/360. So DEC != minicomputer, although they were the leading manufacturer of that class of machine for many years - indeed, until the microcomputer began overshadowing the mini. > > This is an interesting question, and I hope we can have some meaningful dialogue about it - and maybe even stay on topic. :-) -- Ian > Am I just all wet thinking that there was a class (admittedly with rather fuzzy edges) of machines that could logically be called midi's? I'll admit I really did not keep up with all that was going on in the computer industry from say 1960 through maybe 1980 (more especially in the marketing arena) to really know if anyone actually used that descriptor for *any* system or not. I'm really thinking more conceptually than anything else I suppose, and thinking about about what folks like *us* (yeah, I know that covers a bunch of ground) might have called the various systems. Of the limited set of machines I've encountered, I always thought of the IBM 1401, the SDS-910, the SCC-660, and the Datacraft 6024 as midis, at least in some senses, just based on their size, weight, power and air conditioning requirements, etc. I had very little contact with the IBM 1410, but I think if you'd asked me at the time I would have said it was too "big" to be a midi. I might have waffled on some 1401 installations too mostly based on the number and size of peripherals. Only when I got to the Microdata 8xx computers (can't remember the year just now, but certainly well past 1964 - probably 1970 or later) did I think I was working with a mini. Later, Charlie C. From rodsmallwood at btconnect.com Fri Aug 20 00:47:46 2010 From: rodsmallwood at btconnect.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 06:47:46 +0100 Subject: PDP-1 as minicomputer [was RE: OT - sort of] In-Reply-To: <123677.70374.qm@web82606.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <CC28F43ED4708D489ABCF68D06D7F556040A5CC9EA@505DENALI.corp.vnw.com> <123677.70374.qm@web82606.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <648DCEA977B64D9BA89AECEEC73C9770@RodsDevSystem> The story I heard, whilst working at DEC, was that somebody in engineering took a holiday in the UK. When he came back and was asked what it was like. He talked about mini cars and mini skirts. Somebody else said 'any mini computers? 'No' came the reply 'but we could call our new small system a minicomputer I guess.' Regards ? Rod Smallwood ? ?????ANSI X12 - EANCOM - TRADACOMS ? EDI Consulting Ltd ? Phone? 0118 971 4436 Email?? rodsmallwood at btconnect.com ? -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of William Maddox Sent: 17 August 2010 21:38 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: PDP-1 as minicomputer [was RE: OT - sort of] --- On Tue, 8/17/10, Rich Alderson <RichA at vulcan.com> wrote: > Arguing that anything before the PDP-8 was a "minicomputer" > is revisionism. > IMAO. The PDP-8 is probably as good a place as any to demarcate the beginnings of the minicomputer. It was apparently the machine for which the term "minicomputer" was coined. Prior to the PDP-8, however, there was a recognizable class of "small" scientifically-oriented computers with shorter word lengths than their mainframe-class brethren, lower cost, and typically used in small configurations, e.g., SDS 910/920, 3C DDP-24, DEC-PDP1/PDP4, and even smaller serial-memory machines like the Recomp II, Packard-Bell 250, Bendix G-15, and the LGP-30. --Bill From pontus at Update.UU.SE Fri Aug 20 00:51:40 2010 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 07:51:40 +0200 Subject: Octane video cable... In-Reply-To: <AANLkTinJzHpXfh=abC0yyk+kOKVQgh3n-vY=U5Q+W05n@mail.gmail.com> References: <BLU139-W15D39857668800C95AD9DDC99D0@phx.gbl> <E1OlbFv-0005FM-IB@shell.xmission.com> <20100818054150.GA16048@Update.UU.SE> <BLU139-W353633CFF9DD3231665DFDC99D0@phx.gbl> <alpine.LFD.2.00.1008180655060.9992@grumble.deltasoft.com> <041501cb3f45$0ab02380$20106a80$@com> <alpine.LFD.2.00.1008181930560.32196@grumble.deltasoft.com> <AANLkTinJzHpXfh=abC0yyk+kOKVQgh3n-vY=U5Q+W05n@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20100820055140.GA25923@Update.UU.SE> Ah, this discussion pops up from time to time among SGI fans. I can't remember the definitive answer though. A SUN adapter will work on machines later than the Indigo2, but you monitor needs to handle sync on green. An SGI adapter might be needed on an Indigo an earlier, but I'm not sure about it. Perhaps its the sync on green thing again. /P On Thu, Aug 19, 2010 at 02:42:26PM -0500, joe lobocki wrote: > hmmm, I used an adapter off ebay labeled for SUN to VGA, used it on every > single machine up to the octane without an issue, but i couldn't get my dell > CRT to work with it, only my samsung syncmaster710n LCD. it must be more > tolerant of sync on green... > > On Wed, Aug 18, 2010 at 9:31 PM, Gene Buckle <geneb at deltasoft.com> wrote: > > > On Wed, 18 Aug 2010, Erik Klein wrote: > > > > Is this it? > >> > >> > >> http://marketplace.vintage-computer.com/auction_details.php?auction_search=1 > >> &auction_id=107544 > >> > >> > >> Nope, that's for a Sun. The SGI cable is different. > > > > > > g. > > > > -- > > Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 > > http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. > > http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project > > > > ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment > > A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. > > http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! > > From borisg at unixg.ubc.ca Fri Aug 20 01:30:59 2010 From: borisg at unixg.ubc.ca (Boris Gimbarzevsky) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 22:30:59 -0800 Subject: C64 questions In-Reply-To: <20100820055140.GA25923@Update.UU.SE> References: <AANLkTinJzHpXfh=abC0yyk+kOKVQgh3n-vY=U5Q+W05n@mail.gmail.com> <BLU139-W15D39857668800C95AD9DDC99D0@phx.gbl> <E1OlbFv-0005FM-IB@shell.xmission.com> <20100818054150.GA16048@Update.UU.SE> <BLU139-W353633CFF9DD3231665DFDC99D0@phx.gbl> <alpine.LFD.2.00.1008180655060.9992@grumble.deltasoft.com> <041501cb3f45$0ab02380$20106a80$@com> <alpine.LFD.2.00.1008181930560.32196@grumble.deltasoft.com> <AANLkTinJzHpXfh=abC0yyk+kOKVQgh3n-vY=U5Q+W05n@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20100819222023.08975288@mail.interchange.ubc.ca> I've got an application that depends on high precision timing that I originally wrote for the C64. I decided to use it to acquire more data and had very bizarre behavior from the C64 in that at first the standard screen didn't come up but then it did and the letters faded and the C64 was unresponsive to keyboard input or just showed garbage characters. I happen to have a spare C64 and it demonstrated exactly the same behavior. The 5 V supply reads 4.94 V under load and has little ripple. There is 9 VAC coming out of the power adapter and I get +5 V and +12 V at the outputs of the internal C64 regulators. There seems to be little ripple on these supplies also (about 20 mv) but this check was done with the frequency measuring setting of my DVM so I don't know if there are short HV spikes on any of the supplies (have to try to remember where I put my scope after the last move). The C64 that I want to use is 27 years old and worked just fine when I last fired it up about 10 years ago. Anyone have any experience with this type of behavior? Is it worthwhile to replace the internal power supply electrolytics or should I build a new power supply for it? Have lots of 5 VDC supplies but don't seem to have a 9 V transformer in my junk box. Boris Gimbarzevsky From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Aug 20 05:49:45 2010 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 11:49:45 +0100 Subject: Mispronouncing acronyms References: <B136EDE3DF5EC441B6F08E0A7AB872450AC800E4BE@EX2K7-CMS-1.wmata.local>, <4C56C98A.29425.F54A6F@cclist.sydex.com>, <4C5787C3.7000405@brouhaha.com><4C57402B.28155.2C4B012@cclist.sydex.com> <CC28F43ED4708D489ABCF68D06D7F556040A5CC991@505DENALI.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <016401cb405e$8e396260$200b5f0a@user8459cef6fa> ----- Original Message ----- From: Chuck Guzis Sent: Monday, August 02, 2010 10:01 PM > Okay, so who pronouces assembly mnemonics? (As far as I can recall, > I've only been guilty of pronoucing BXLE as "bixle".) I know I'm a little late here (behind in emails again), but... Regarding MC68000 assembly, I often pronounce ROXL and ROXR as "Rocks-Ell" and "Rocks-Or". Why weren't they ROLX and RORX? Was it so that the former wasn't pronounced "Rol-Ex" (as in the watch manufacturer)?! Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From rborsuk at colourfull.com Fri Aug 20 08:30:42 2010 From: rborsuk at colourfull.com (Robert Borsuk) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 09:30:42 -0400 Subject: rom dump of C64 Turtle graphics II Message-ID: <B7F0BE3E-4D38-42AF-9BB2-17D580D34410@colourfull.com> Does anyone have the cartridge dump from the HES Turtle Graphics II cartridge for the C64? Thanks Rob From legalize at xmission.com Fri Aug 20 12:00:36 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 11:00:36 -0600 Subject: ebay: uVax II in Austin, TX Message-ID: <E1OmUxI-00051Y-Cu@shell.xmission.com> item # 190433287669 -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com/the-direct3d-graphics-pipeline/> Legalize Adulthood! <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com> From thomas.gardner at sbcglobal.net Fri Aug 20 13:23:13 2010 From: thomas.gardner at sbcglobal.net (Tom Gardner) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 11:23:13 -0700 Subject: 1970s TTL specs and prices In-Reply-To: <mailman.3.1282323603.64101.cctalk@classiccmp.org> References: <mailman.3.1282323603.64101.cctalk@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <57313DAA05B241C09A0CF79DE4906A83@tegp4> For some Computer History Museum work I need information on 7400 series Flip Flops (S and Normal, DIPs) circa 1973 (anything 1970-75). Anyone have any maximum clock speed and OEM volume pricing information on parts such as 7473 thru 79 or 74106-116? I must be getting old because I remember the 7474 well but I thru out my Yellow books years ago :-) Thanks Tom From ploopster at gmail.com Fri Aug 20 13:45:14 2010 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 14:45:14 -0400 Subject: Mispronouncing acronyms In-Reply-To: <016401cb405e$8e396260$200b5f0a@user8459cef6fa> References: <B136EDE3DF5EC441B6F08E0A7AB872450AC800E4BE@EX2K7-CMS-1.wmata.local>, <4C56C98A.29425.F54A6F@cclist.sydex.com>, <4C5787C3.7000405@brouhaha.com><4C57402B.28155.2C4B012@cclist.sydex.com> <CC28F43ED4708D489ABCF68D06D7F556040A5CC991@505DENALI.corp.vnw.com> <016401cb405e$8e396260$200b5f0a@user8459cef6fa> Message-ID: <4C6ECD3A.2040606@gmail.com> Andrew Burton wrote: >> Okay, so who pronouces assembly mnemonics? (As far as I can recall, > > I've only been guilty of pronoucing BXLE as "bixle".) > > I know I'm a little late here (behind in emails again), but... > > Regarding MC68000 assembly, I often pronounce ROXL and ROXR as "Rocks-Ell" > and "Rocks-Or". Why weren't they ROLX and RORX? Was it so that the former > wasn't pronounced "Rol-Ex" (as in the watch manufacturer)?! I pronounce a wide variety of IBM mainframe mnemonics. For example BALR -> Bal-err. Peace... Sridhar From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Aug 20 12:43:34 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 18:43:34 +0100 (BST) Subject: Origin of the term minicomputer (was Re: PDP-1 as minicomputer In-Reply-To: <AANLkTim-gQ3__Mrj4cyX=GN5iTAH9gsVgniPSqAroUN4@mail.gmail.com> from "Nigel Williams" at Aug 20, 10 09:12:05 am Message-ID: <m1OmVcz-000J3uC@p850ug1> > > On Fri, Aug 20, 2010 at 6:35 AM, Tony Duell <ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk> wrote: > > > What do you consider the DPP11/23 and PDP11/73 to be? (Remember the CPU is > > a small number of custom LSI chips). > > > > Never fear, the DEC marketing crowd "fixed" that one too, they were > "Supermicrosystems", as per the handbook (1986) which covered the MicroVAX > I,II, Micro PDP11/23,73,83. OK :-) But DEC had their own meaning for 'microprocessor' to mean a 'microcoded control system'. I seem to remember that the control logic of a VT52 and that of the DMC11, etc are called 'microprocessors' in the DEC manuals, for all the are built from lots of MSI chips, and there's nothing that the rest of the world would call a microprocessor (a chip such as a Z80, 6800, 8080, 6502, etc) And I've still not worked out what to class the HP9830 as ;-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Aug 20 12:51:59 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 18:51:59 +0100 (BST) Subject: C64 questions In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20100819222023.08975288@mail.interchange.ubc.ca> from "Boris Gimbarzevsky" at Aug 19, 10 10:30:59 pm Message-ID: <m1OmVlB-000J3xC@p850ug1> > > I've got an application that depends on high precision timing that I > originally wrote for the C64. I decided to use it to acquire more data and > had very bizarre behavior from the C64 in that at first the standard screen > didn't come up but then it did and the letters faded and the C64 was > unresponsive to keyboard input or just showed garbage characters. I happen > to have a spare C64 and it demonstrated exactly the same behavior. Hmmm.. While you might think it unlikely for 2 machines to develop the same fualt, if this is, say, due to dried-up capacitors, it could well happen. So my first suggestion is to forget you have a second machine, and to debug the first one 'properly'. > > The 5 V supply reads 4.94 V under load and has little ripple. There is 9 Sounds fine. > VAC coming out of the power adapter and I get +5 V and +12 V at the outputs > of the internal C64 regulators. There seems to be little ripple on these > supplies also (about 20 mv) but this check was done with the frequency > measuring setting of my DVM so I don't know if there are short HV spikes on > any of the supplies (have to try to remember where I put my scope after the > last move). I really think you need to find that 'socpe and check thsoe supplies more carefully... I have the advantage of owning a 'scope I can't easily lose -- a Tekky 555 :-). I wm wondering just what the DMM is displaying -- you say it's a 'freqeuncy measuring' range, but you're giving a voltage. Some DMMs will display the ripple voltage if set to ACV and conencted to the DC power eail (they ignore th standard DC level), but you want to make sure it's doing what you think it's doing before you trust the readings. > > The C64 that I want to use is 27 years old and worked just fine when I last > fired it up about 10 years ago. Anyone have any experience with this type > of behavior? Is it worthwhile to replace the internal power supply > electrolytics or should I build a new power supply for it? Have lots of 5 > VDC supplies but don't seem to have a 9 V transformer in my junk box. If you think it's the power brick (and it might be), you could test things by using the 9V AC otuput from that 'brick' (that is unlikely to fail in an odd way, it's just the secondary wining of a transformer), along with a separate 5V supply connected in placeof the 5V output from the brick (in other words, desolder the 5V wire at the C64 conenctor and connect a 5V PSU to the C64). If it works, then you know ehre the problem lies. If it's not PSU problems, my next approact would be to try freezer spray on the ICs in the C64. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Aug 20 14:01:41 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 20:01:41 +0100 (BST) Subject: 1970s TTL specs and prices In-Reply-To: <57313DAA05B241C09A0CF79DE4906A83@tegp4> from "Tom Gardner" at Aug 20, 10 11:23:13 am Message-ID: <m1OmWqW-000J3uC@p850ug1> > > For some Computer History Museum work I need information on 7400 series Flip > Flops (S and Normal, DIPs) circa 1973 (anything 1970-75). Anyone have any I have a 1978 TI TTL databook to hand, if you think that would be any use. It would have the spcs for the devices you mention (but I suppose they might have improved them between 1973 and 1978). > maximum clock speed and OEM volume pricing information on parts such as 7473 > thru 79 or 74106-116? I won't have OEM pricing information, alas. I might be able to find old adverts selling 1-offs to hobbyists, but that's all. > > I must be getting old because I remember the 7474 well but I thru out my > Yellow books years ago :-) I've kept all my old databooks. Darn it, I need them.. I use them virtually every day (for design and repair...) -tony From cclist at sydex.com Fri Aug 20 14:08:47 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 12:08:47 -0700 Subject: Mispronouncing acronyms In-Reply-To: <4C6ECD3A.2040606@gmail.com> References: <B136EDE3DF5EC441B6F08E0A7AB872450AC800E4BE@EX2K7-CMS-1.wmata.local>, <016401cb405e$8e396260$200b5f0a@user8459cef6fa>, <4C6ECD3A.2040606@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4C6E704F.2841.E105D5@cclist.sydex.com> On 20 Aug 2010 at 14:45, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > I pronounce a wide variety of IBM mainframe mnemonics. For example > BALR -> Bal-err. I'd start to worry if you began pronouncing CDC 6000 CPU memonics... --Chuck From jplist2008 at kiwigeek.com Fri Aug 20 14:10:24 2010 From: jplist2008 at kiwigeek.com (JP Hindin) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 14:10:24 -0500 (CDT) Subject: C64 questions In-Reply-To: <m1OmVlB-000J3xC@p850ug1> Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.1008201407480.10765-100000@localhost> On Fri, 20 Aug 2010, Tony Duell wrote: > > The C64 that I want to use is 27 years old and worked just fine when I last > > fired it up about 10 years ago. Anyone have any experience with this type > > of behavior? Is it worthwhile to replace the internal power supply > > electrolytics or should I build a new power supply for it? Have lots of 5 > > VDC supplies but don't seem to have a 9 V transformer in my junk box. > > If you think it's the power brick (and it might be), you could test > things by using the 9V AC otuput from that 'brick' (that is unlikely to > fail in an odd way, it's just the secondary wining of a transformer), > along with a separate 5V supply connected in placeof the 5V output from > the brick (in other words, desolder the 5V wire at the C64 conenctor and > connect a 5V PSU to the C64). If it works, then you know ehre the problem > lies. Further on this, you can also power the '64 up with only the +5VDC. The 9VAC (as has been mentioned in past) is used primarily for TOD and cassette port power. If the OP is needing precise timing, this probably isn't a long-term solution - but if it comes up correctly under +5VDC (which presumbly can be sourced with relative ease) then you know it's the brick also. For what it is worth. - JP From binarydinosaurs at gmail.com Fri Aug 20 14:29:02 2010 From: binarydinosaurs at gmail.com (Adrian Graham) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 20:29:02 +0100 Subject: Collection reduction time, advice please Message-ID: <AANLkTik=32P_5z+0RJgQgd+B3i1txpZMoEXZYUipFgxp@mail.gmail.com> Folks, First off, apologies to those who've asked me about the DSSI drive sleds etc I mentioned a while back, fret not, I still have them. Reason for the above not happening - my landlord wants his house back. This is a problem because I really fell on my feet when I found this place and managed to squirrel away my entire collection. 3.5 years later this town is home, my girlfriend is here, my friends are here so I don't want to up sticks and move the whole lot again. Also there's now no way I can afford a house with this much garage space. So. As much as it pains me I have to come to the realisation that I'll never actively use 90% of my DEC stuff, my CBM PET stuff, IBM PC compatibles or the 'middling' Apple stuff like LCs, Mac IIs, Quadras etc I haven't extensively catalogued anything for years, but given that I only have a month and a bit it's time to get my skates on. I'm guessing nobody will be interested in my SUN and Cisco kit, or Research Machines early PCs. Over the weekend I'll catalogue the big DEC and Apple stuff and post it here. Any advice or offers of collecting stuff from me gratefully received. I can ship big things from work on receipt of money, even on pallets. Cheers, -- adrian/witchy Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest home?computer collection? www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk From cclist at sydex.com Fri Aug 20 14:32:48 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 12:32:48 -0700 Subject: 1970s TTL specs and prices In-Reply-To: <57313DAA05B241C09A0CF79DE4906A83@tegp4> References: <mailman.3.1282323603.64101.cctalk@classiccmp.org>, <57313DAA05B241C09A0CF79DE4906A83@tegp4> Message-ID: <4C6E75F0.9440.F7028E@cclist.sydex.com> On 20 Aug 2010 at 11:23, Tom Gardner wrote: > For some Computer History Museum work I need information on 7400 > series Flip Flops (S and Normal, DIPs) circa 1973 (anything 1970-75). > Anyone have any maximum clock speed and OEM volume pricing information > on parts such as 7473 thru 79 or 74106-116? > > I must be getting old because I remember the 7474 well but I thru out > my Yellow books years ago :-) Whose 7400 series? (Motorola, TI, Fairchild...). About the closest I can come to your date is the big brown 1969 Motorola Microelectronics Databook that includes 74/54 series TTL. But no pricing, sorry. --Chuck From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Aug 20 14:33:36 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 13:33:36 -0600 Subject: Origin of the term minicomputer (was Re: PDP-1 as minicomputer In-Reply-To: <m1OmVcz-000J3uC@p850ug1> References: <m1OmVcz-000J3uC@p850ug1> Message-ID: <4C6ED890.9030709@brouhaha.com> Tony Duell wrote: > But DEC had their own meaning for 'microprocessor' to mean a 'microcoded > control system'. I seem to remember that the control logic of a VT52 and > that of the DMC11, etc are called 'microprocessors' in the DEC manuals, > for all the are built from lots of MSI chips, and there's nothing that > the rest of the world would call a microprocessor (a chip such as a Z80, > 6800, 8080, 6502, etc) IBM used that definition as well. The "PALM" (Put All Logic in Microcode) board-level processor of the IBM 5100 Portable Computer, introduced in 1975, was referred to as a microprocessor. It was implemented primarily from IBM's "Duchess" TTL gate arrays, containing up to 134 gates each. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Aug 20 14:56:40 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 20:56:40 +0100 (BST) Subject: Origin of the term minicomputer (was Re: PDP-1 as minicomputer In-Reply-To: <4C6ED890.9030709@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at Aug 20, 10 01:33:36 pm Message-ID: <m1OmXhj-000J3uC@p850ug1> > > Tony Duell wrote: > > But DEC had their own meaning for 'microprocessor' to mean a 'microcoded > > control system'. I seem to remember that the control logic of a VT52 and > > that of the DMC11, etc are called 'microprocessors' in the DEC manuals, > > for all the are built from lots of MSI chips, and there's nothing that > > the rest of the world would call a microprocessor (a chip such as a Z80, > > 6800, 8080, 6502, etc) > > IBM used that definition as well. The "PALM" (Put All Logic in Interesting... I wonder if it was an industry-standard term at the time... I am tryingf to remember what HP called the control logic board in an 9800 calculator. I can rememebr the part number (09810-66513), but I don't have the boardswapper guid (why would I need it) that would give the name. But the term 'microproceesor' seems to ring a bell... -tony From legalize at xmission.com Fri Aug 20 15:08:55 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 14:08:55 -0600 Subject: Collection reduction time, advice please In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 20 Aug 2010 20:29:02 +0100. <AANLkTik=32P_5z+0RJgQgd+B3i1txpZMoEXZYUipFgxp@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <E1OmXtX-0005jJ-UP@shell.xmission.com> Just like they say in real estate... location, location, location -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com/the-direct3d-graphics-pipeline/> Legalize Adulthood! <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com> From teoz at neo.rr.com Fri Aug 20 15:22:45 2010 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 16:22:45 -0400 Subject: Terminals... References: <mailman.16.1281618930.1006.cctalk@classiccmp.org><4C64FE77.5060906@softjar.se> <4C660D50.3050401@gmail.com> Message-ID: <744DB5469BEB4131832EC66D4BA961F6@dell8300> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sridhar Ayengar" <ploopster at gmail.com> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> Cc: "Johnny Billquist" <bqt at softjar.se> Sent: Friday, August 13, 2010 11:28 PM Subject: Re: Terminals... > Johnny Billquist wrote: >> I like the VT5xx series, just as I like all other VT-terminals. However, >> I've had problems with power supplies of VT320, and VT340 terminals, and >> have had problems with the displays going weak on VT420 terminals. > > I don't like the VT5xx series (but don't dislike them enough to get rid of > mine), because of their changed admin interface vs. the really nice ones > of the previous DEC terminals. > > Peace... Sridhar How well would a VT525 work with a MicroVAX 3100 series model 80? The local scrapper has about 8 of that model terminal and a pile of DEC keyboards (mostly ps2 type ends, a couple with what looks like a 4 pin mini phone jack). The guy in charge at the time needed to talk to the owner about price (meaning he will try to ream me on one after he looks it up on ebay). I did get 2 sets of MJJ cables (one ends in what looks like a 9 pin serial port adapter, the other looks like it ends in a ethernet cable adapter) and 2 DEC terminal keyboards (ps2 end). I guess I can rig up a laptop to be a terminal with the cables I have, or hope he lets the VT525's go cheap (what is a fair price for one anyway?). From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Aug 20 15:31:39 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 16:31:39 -0400 Subject: Terminals... In-Reply-To: <744DB5469BEB4131832EC66D4BA961F6@dell8300> References: <mailman.16.1281618930.1006.cctalk@classiccmp.org> <4C64FE77.5060906@softjar.se> <4C660D50.3050401@gmail.com> <744DB5469BEB4131832EC66D4BA961F6@dell8300> Message-ID: <D3448F5F-80DD-4DD3-A8BD-C47C3F37CF08@neurotica.com> On Aug 20, 2010, at 4:22 PM, "Teo Zenios" <teoz at neo.rr.com> wrote: >>> I like the VT5xx series, just as I like all other VT-terminals. However, >>> I've had problems with power supplies of VT320, and VT340 terminals, and >>> have had problems with the displays going weak on VT420 terminals. >> >> I don't like the VT5xx series (but don't dislike them enough to get rid of mine), because of their changed admin interface vs. the really nice ones of the previous DEC terminals. >> >> Peace... Sridhar > > How well would a VT525 work with a MicroVAX 3100 series model 80? The local scrapper has about 8 of that model terminal and a pile of DEC keyboards (mostly ps2 type ends, a couple with what looks like a 4 pin mini phone jack). The guy in charge at the time needed to talk to the owner about price (meaning he will try to ream me on one after he looks it up on ebay). I did get 2 sets of MJJ cables (one ends in what looks like a 9 pin serial port adapter, the other looks like it ends in a ethernet cable adapter) and 2 DEC terminal keyboards (ps2 end). I guess I can rig up a laptop to be a terminal with the cables I have, or hope he lets the VT525's go cheap (what is a fair price for one anyway?). VT525s will be fine on a VAX. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Aug 20 15:46:03 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 16:46:03 -0400 Subject: Terminals... In-Reply-To: <744DB5469BEB4131832EC66D4BA961F6@dell8300> References: <mailman.16.1281618930.1006.cctalk@classiccmp.org> <4C64FE77.5060906@softjar.se> <4C660D50.3050401@gmail.com> <744DB5469BEB4131832EC66D4BA961F6@dell8300> Message-ID: <AANLkTimv19X3zLoJwtExzeK3-ACYHdC67-tfB1_OcQHP@mail.gmail.com> On 8/20/10, Teo Zenios <teoz at neo.rr.com> wrote: > How well would a VT525 work with a MicroVAX 3100 series model 80? Just fine. > The local > scrapper has about 8 of that model terminal and a pile of DEC keyboards > (mostly ps2 type ends, a couple with what looks like a 4 pin mini phone > jack). Those would likely be LK201s (with the 4-pin handset jack) or perhaps a newer variant, and some variety of LK401s. From time to time, I have use of pretty much any variety. The real LK201s first shipped in the early 1980s with VT220s and contemporary gear and are somewhat wider than PC keyboards. Newer keyboards tend to look more like PC keyboards with a key or two that looks odd ("Do", etc). > The guy in charge at the time needed to talk to the owner about price > (meaning he will try to ream me on one after he looks it up on ebay). A quick check shows a wide variety of BIN OBO pricing, but the real question is what are they *selling* for. > I guess I can rig up a laptop to be a > terminal with the cables I have, or hope he lets the VT525's go cheap (what > is a fair price for one anyway?). I don't have a good feel for the present prices for terminal gear, but the base VT525 isn't saddled with a CRT and is newish kit, so a partial answer is "more than some terminals, less than others". Recently, for example, I've had several genuine VT220s w/LK201 keyboards pass nearby, but I couldn't drum up enough interest for free or nearly free units (plus shipping, of course). I get a VT220 or three per year offered to me. VT320s less often (though I did get a couple this year) and VT4xx less often. VT525s, though, seem to still attract commercial interest. I personally wouldn't spend $100 on one, but I have plenty of dumb terminals to pull off the shelf, so I don't _need_ one. I wouldn't mind having one to play with, but it would have to be free/cost of dinner to entice me. If you don't have another terminal or you don't have an affinity for a particular model (my first terminals were the VT52, VT10x, and VT220, for example) then you might be more motivated to pony up a few bucks. -ethan From ajp166 at verizon.net Fri Aug 20 16:00:04 2010 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 17:00:04 -0400 Subject: Origin of the term minicomputer (was Re: PDP-1 as minicomputer In-Reply-To: <m1OmVcz-000J3uC@p850ug1> References: <m1OmVcz-000J3uC@p850ug1> Message-ID: <4C6EECD4.3090409@verizon.net> On 08/20/2010 01:43 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> On Fri, Aug 20, 2010 at 6:35 AM, Tony Duell<ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk> wrote: >> >> >>> What do you consider the DPP11/23 and PDP11/73 to be? (Remember the CPU is >>> a small number of custom LSI chips). >>> >>> The F11 cpu was considered a microcomputer (PDP-11/23 cpu) as are the first in that line the LSI-11, also J11, and T-11. That was DECs designation. However be careful as DEC systems could be mini or larger in scope built with microprocessers. MicroVaxII is a an example as would be the VAX6000. >> Never fear, the DEC marketing crowd "fixed" that one too, they were >> "Supermicrosystems", as per the handbook (1986) which covered the MicroVAX >> I,II, Micro PDP11/23,73,83. >> > OK :-) > > Really they did! > But DEC had their own meaning for 'microprocessor' to mean a 'microcoded > control system'. I seem to remember that the control logic of a VT52 and > that of the DMC11, etc are called 'microprocessors' in the DEC manuals, > for all the are built from lots of MSI chips, and there's nothing that > the rest of the world would call a microprocessor (a chip such as a Z80, > 6800, 8080, 6502, etc) > > Ah, not quite. I say that as an ExDEC. There are two problems with the statement one is when and how the terms were used. When is very important as it was both the appearance of common use and the application of it to DEC machines. The how is also the same thing really but the actual application by others or adoption by marketing In the early days about 1974 maybe a bit before, it usually implied microcoded processor or state machine. VT52 never had a CPU of any form it was all state machine in microcode and random logic. The first DEC terminal with a CPU actually microcomputer was Vt100. After the 8080 microprocessor tended to mean a cpu on one chip or very few for example CDP1800/1801 a two chip predecessor of the COSMAC CDP1802. The whole mini- thing started in the exact time frame as the appearance in the USA of the embarrassing short skirts aptly named miniskirts. It was a magazine that connected PDP-8 with mini-computer. It was about 1965-66 that computer packaging to table top or desk side size was making relatively small machines like the CDC160 and others. However the mini-attribution was not assigned to the later generation about the time of the PDP-8i. The PDP8 was a instruction and mostly compatible but improved follow on to the all transistor PDP-5 (1963) but much larger than the first version of the PDP-8 by a factor of three racks. Note the PDP-5 was almost as large as the PDP1 but was aimed at lower cost to buy and use. Also when referring to the PDP-8 a specific machine and family designation that reaches from 1965 to late 80s and includes the -8, -8s, -8i, -8e and -8a as major varients of the same design. However the 8e/f/m version with the Omnibus was the longest running and highest volume member with the 8a also using he same bus. The 8f was the smallest of the 8e family with a full front panel but still having expansion space. The 8a was smaller but lacked the traditional lights and switches panel. The demarcation of mini and micro really started to happen in the mid 70s with CPU on a chip (8080, 6800, 6502 et al). From a point of view of say 1978.. we called them like this. PDP-1 was most notable not for small but cheap (relatively) at under 1,000,000$ (those are 1960 Dollars!). PDP1 not really classed back then it was considered BIG and big meant needs forklift to move. PDP10 mainframe as we IBM 360/370 and Univac1108 PDP8 mini PDP11 mini, as well as DG nova and CM2000,2100, 2200 series *by 1972 the number of companies making distinct machines in the 12/16 bit class was large. LSI-11 was microcomputer VAX11/780 first superminicomputer. VAX early on was the 32bit next step from PDP11 and included compatability mode with PDP-11 to exploit the large pdp-11 base and it's migration to 32bit platform. See: ftp://rtfm.mit.edu/pub/usenet/alt.sys.pdp8/PDP-8_Frequently_Asked_Questions_%28posted_every_other_month%29 Allison > -tony > > From legalize at xmission.com Fri Aug 20 16:01:41 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 15:01:41 -0600 Subject: Terminals... In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 20 Aug 2010 16:22:45 -0400. <744DB5469BEB4131832EC66D4BA961F6@dell8300> Message-ID: <E1OmYib-0003Ej-Px@shell.xmission.com> In article <744DB5469BEB4131832EC66D4BA961F6 at dell8300>, "Teo Zenios" <teoz at neo.rr.com> writes: > How well would a VT525 work with a MicroVAX 3100 series model 80? <http://vt100.net/vt_history> says the VT525 is a color multi-session terminal. So that's a fairly decent model for the 500 series. Judging from the programmer's manual, you can select from a palette of 16 colors. <http://www.vt100.net/docs/vt520-rm/ek-vt520-rm.pdf> -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com/the-direct3d-graphics-pipeline/> Legalize Adulthood! <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com> From pontus at Update.UU.SE Fri Aug 20 16:02:41 2010 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 23:02:41 +0200 Subject: Collection reduction time, advice please In-Reply-To: <AANLkTik=32P_5z+0RJgQgd+B3i1txpZMoEXZYUipFgxp@mail.gmail.com> References: <AANLkTik=32P_5z+0RJgQgd+B3i1txpZMoEXZYUipFgxp@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20100820210240.GA9867@Update.UU.SE> Hi. Sorry to hear that Adrian, you have some nice gear listed on your site. I don't thinkg you will have problems finding a home for most of it. Although a month is shorter than one might think. Unless you have a PDP-8 tucked away in there, the shipping is probably to prohibitive for me to give you any serious offers. Cheers, Pontus. On Fri, Aug 20, 2010 at 08:29:02PM +0100, Adrian Graham wrote: > Folks, > > First off, apologies to those who've asked me about the DSSI drive > sleds etc I mentioned a while back, fret not, I still have them. > > Reason for the above not happening - my landlord wants his house back. > This is a problem because I really fell on my feet when I found this > place and managed to squirrel away my entire collection. 3.5 years > later this town is home, my girlfriend is here, my friends are here so > I don't want to up sticks and move the whole lot again. Also there's > now no way I can afford a house with this much garage space. > > So. As much as it pains me I have to come to the realisation that I'll > never actively use 90% of my DEC stuff, my CBM PET stuff, IBM PC > compatibles or the 'middling' Apple stuff like LCs, Mac IIs, Quadras > etc > > I haven't extensively catalogued anything for years, but given that I > only have a month and a bit it's time to get my skates on. > > I'm guessing nobody will be interested in my SUN and Cisco kit, or > Research Machines early PCs. > > Over the weekend I'll catalogue the big DEC and Apple stuff and post it here. > > Any advice or offers of collecting stuff from me gratefully received. > I can ship big things from work on receipt of money, even on pallets. > > Cheers, > > -- > adrian/witchy > Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest home?computer collection? > www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk From legalize at xmission.com Fri Aug 20 16:16:22 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 15:16:22 -0600 Subject: Terminals... In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 20 Aug 2010 16:46:03 -0400. <AANLkTimv19X3zLoJwtExzeK3-ACYHdC67-tfB1_OcQHP@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <E1OmYwo-0007Mc-Qy@shell.xmission.com> In article <AANLkTimv19X3zLoJwtExzeK3-ACYHdC67-tfB1_OcQHP at mail.gmail.com>, Ethan Dicks <ethan.dicks at gmail.com> writes: > I don't have a good feel for the present prices for terminal gear, but > the base VT525 isn't saddled with a CRT and is newish kit, so a > partial answer is "more than some terminals, less than others". Ah... I didn't realize that the 525 had a base separate from the monitor. The picture on vt100.net must be showing a 510 or 520 with the monitor/electronics integrated into a single housing. I guess the 525 just takes a regular VGA monitor? Completed listings on ebay for 510, 520 or 525 terminals shows a 510 sold for $38+16 shipping and a 520 sold for $45+18 shipping. Our old friend "it_equipment_xpress" of course has 510's listed for $130 and $443 (for *2* sessions!) that of course haven't sold. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com/the-direct3d-graphics-pipeline/> Legalize Adulthood! <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com> From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri Aug 20 16:20:01 2010 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 14:20:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Terminals... In-Reply-To: <E1OmYwo-0007Mc-Qy@shell.xmission.com> References: <E1OmYwo-0007Mc-Qy@shell.xmission.com> Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.00.1008201419240.14663@grumble.deltasoft.com> On Fri, 20 Aug 2010, Richard wrote: > > Our old friend "it_equipment_xpress" of course has 510's listed for $130 > and $443 (for *2* sessions!) that of course haven't sold. > I wonder if he's related to the guy with the $35,000 Kaypro or the guy with the $400 486 motherboard... g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Aug 20 16:26:11 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 17:26:11 -0400 Subject: Terminals... In-Reply-To: <E1OmYwo-0007Mc-Qy@shell.xmission.com> References: <AANLkTimv19X3zLoJwtExzeK3-ACYHdC67-tfB1_OcQHP@mail.gmail.com> <E1OmYwo-0007Mc-Qy@shell.xmission.com> Message-ID: <AANLkTikEdJ5t2pHkaNUW=E0huq+JH2P6Kki04qqdNJU8@mail.gmail.com> On 8/20/10, Richard <legalize at xmission.com> wrote: > I guess the 525 just takes a regular VGA monitor? I haven't used one personally, but that's my understanding. > Completed listings on ebay for 510, 520 or 525 terminals shows a 510 sold > for $38+16 shipping and a 520 sold for $45+18 shipping. $40-$50 (+shipping) sounds like a decent price to me, but I haven't been shopping around for new terminals (I don't really need color, and I have plenty of DEC mono dumb terminals). -ethan From legalize at xmission.com Fri Aug 20 16:27:49 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 15:27:49 -0600 Subject: Terminals... In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 20 Aug 2010 14:20:01 -0700. <alpine.LFD.2.00.1008201419240.14663@grumble.deltasoft.com> Message-ID: <E1OmZ7t-00020T-2c@shell.xmission.com> In article <alpine.LFD.2.00.1008201419240.14663 at grumble.deltasoft.com>, Gene Buckle <geneb at deltasoft.com> writes: > On Fri, 20 Aug 2010, Richard wrote: > > > > > Our old friend "it_equipment_xpress" of course has 510's listed for $130 > > and $443 (for *2* sessions!) that of course haven't sold. > > > I wonder if he's related to the guy with the $35,000 Kaypro or the guy > with the $400 486 motherboard... I think he's just one of those middle-man dealers that waits with overpriced listings to prey on companies with critical vintage gear that suddenly fails. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com/the-direct3d-graphics-pipeline/> Legalize Adulthood! <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com> From RichA at vulcan.com Fri Aug 20 16:28:08 2010 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 14:28:08 -0700 Subject: Collection reduction time, advice please In-Reply-To: <AANLkTik=32P_5z+0RJgQgd+B3i1txpZMoEXZYUipFgxp@mail.gmail.com> References: <AANLkTik=32P_5z+0RJgQgd+B3i1txpZMoEXZYUipFgxp@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <CC28F43ED4708D489ABCF68D06D7F556040A5CCA01@505DENALI.corp.vnw.com> From: Adrian Graham Sent: Friday, August 20, 2010 12:29 PM > I'm guessing nobody will be interested in my SUN and Cisco kit, or > Research Machines early PCs. Hi, Adrian, Depending on the age of the Cisco gear, we would be very interested. We're trying to find early gear that can handle PUP as well as TCP/IP routing (ASM, MSM, that class of router). We're also interested in your other stuff, but I just wanted to let you know that old Cisco is interesting. Thanks, Rich Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org (206) 342-2239 (206) 465-2916 cell http://www.PDPplanet.org/ http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From legalize at xmission.com Fri Aug 20 16:29:23 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 15:29:23 -0600 Subject: Terminals... In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 20 Aug 2010 17:26:11 -0400. <AANLkTikEdJ5t2pHkaNUW=E0huq+JH2P6Kki04qqdNJU8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <E1OmZ9P-0002QM-WD@shell.xmission.com> In article <AANLkTikEdJ5t2pHkaNUW=E0huq+JH2P6Kki04qqdNJU8 at mail.gmail.com>, Ethan Dicks <ethan.dicks at gmail.com> writes: > > Completed listings on ebay for 510, 520 or 525 terminals shows a 510 sold > > for $38+16 shipping and a 520 sold for $45+18 shipping. > > $40-$50 (+shipping) sounds like a decent price to me, but I haven't > been shopping around for new terminals (I don't really need color, and > I have plenty of DEC mono dumb terminals). I don't think I have a vt5xx yet, but they are at the end of the DEC product line where things are less interesting because the terminals are all commoditized by then. The cases are fairly indistinguishable between vendors; about the only differentiating factors are features (in this case multiple LAT sessions) and keyboards (in this case the really wide dec LK style keyboard). -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com/the-direct3d-graphics-pipeline/> Legalize Adulthood! <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com> From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri Aug 20 16:37:03 2010 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 14:37:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Terminals... In-Reply-To: <E1OmZ7t-00020T-2c@shell.xmission.com> References: <E1OmZ7t-00020T-2c@shell.xmission.com> Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.00.1008201436120.15188@grumble.deltasoft.com> On Fri, 20 Aug 2010, Richard wrote: > > In article <alpine.LFD.2.00.1008201419240.14663 at grumble.deltasoft.com>, > Gene Buckle <geneb at deltasoft.com> writes: > >> On Fri, 20 Aug 2010, Richard wrote: >> >>> >>> Our old friend "it_equipment_xpress" of course has 510's listed for $130 >>> and $443 (for *2* sessions!) that of course haven't sold. >>> >> I wonder if he's related to the guy with the $35,000 Kaypro or the guy >> with the $400 486 motherboard... > > I think he's just one of those middle-man dealers that waits with > overpriced listings to prey on companies with critical vintage gear > that suddenly fails. > Ahh. I wasn't aware of that "segment". I figured they were just greedy f*cks the fed on the gullible. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Aug 20 17:15:54 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 15:15:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Origin of the term minicomputer (was Re: PDP-1 as minicomputer In-Reply-To: <m1OmVcz-000J3uC@p850ug1> References: <m1OmVcz-000J3uC@p850ug1> Message-ID: <20100820151501.A55882@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 20 Aug 2010, Tony Duell wrote: > And I've still not worked out what to class the HP9830 as ;-) I thought that you had already established that as being in a class by itself. From jws at jwsss.com Fri Aug 20 13:54:50 2010 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 11:54:50 -0700 Subject: ebay: uVax II in Austin, TX In-Reply-To: <E1OmUxI-00051Y-Cu@shell.xmission.com> References: <E1OmUxI-00051Y-Cu@shell.xmission.com> Message-ID: <4C6ECF7A.7020702@jwsss.com> This vendor also has a Dec Storage server for sale ending very soon (12 pm CDT) 200508059270 A lot of the vendors auctions seem to be for equipment which is pretty old, might be worth scanning the vendor's other stuff for parts for your pile. Thanks Richard. JIm On 8/20/2010 10:00 AM, Richard wrote: > item # 190433287669 > > From pinball at telus.net Fri Aug 20 14:58:20 2010 From: pinball at telus.net (John Robertson) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 12:58:20 -0700 Subject: 1970s TTL specs and prices In-Reply-To: <m1OmWqW-000J3uC@p850ug1> References: <m1OmWqW-000J3uC@p850ug1> Message-ID: <4C6EDE5C.7010005@telus.net> Tony Duell wrote: >> For some Computer History Museum work I need information on 7400 series Flip >> Flops (S and Normal, DIPs) circa 1973 (anything 1970-75). Anyone have any >> > > I have a 1978 TI TTL databook to hand, if you think that would be any > use. It would have the spcs for the devices you mention (but I suppose > they might have improved them between 1973 and 1978). > > >> maximum clock speed and OEM volume pricing information on parts such as 7473 >> thru 79 or 74106-116? >> > > I won't have OEM pricing information, alas. I might be able to find old > adverts selling 1-offs to hobbyists, but that's all. > > >> I must be getting old because I remember the 7474 well but I thru out my >> Yellow books years ago :-) >> > > I've kept all my old databooks. Darn it, I need them.. I use them > virtually every day (for design and repair...) > > -tony > > I'm with Tony on keeping old data books. In our shop we service everything coin operated from around 1900 and later. I have tube and thyrotron books from the 1930s through 60s, catalogs on magnetic memory cores (used in Seeburg jukeboxes in the mid-50s through mid 70s), early transistor books (late 50s), then digital logic books starting with RTL and early TTL (eg. TI - Designing with TLL ICs - 1971)... I could post a list of my manuals, but then people would bug me for reprints of various chips and I'd get no work done! John :-#)# -- John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9 Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, VideoGames) www.flippers.com "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out" From csquared3 at tx.rr.com Fri Aug 20 15:41:41 2010 From: csquared3 at tx.rr.com (Charlie Carothers) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 15:41:41 -0500 Subject: Origin of the term minicomputer (was Re: PDP-1 as minicomputer In-Reply-To: <m1OmVcz-000J3uC@p850ug1> References: <m1OmVcz-000J3uC@p850ug1> Message-ID: <4C6EE885.30804@tx.rr.com> Tony Duell wrote: >> On Fri, Aug 20, 2010 at 6:35 AM, Tony Duell <ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk> wrote: >> >>> What do you consider the DPP11/23 and PDP11/73 to be? (Remember the CPU is >>> a small number of custom LSI chips). >>> >> Never fear, the DEC marketing crowd "fixed" that one too, they were >> "Supermicrosystems", as per the handbook (1986) which covered the MicroVAX >> I,II, Micro PDP11/23,73,83. > > OK :-) > > But DEC had their own meaning for 'microprocessor' to mean a 'microcoded > control system'. I seem to remember that the control logic of a VT52 and > that of the DMC11, etc are called 'microprocessors' in the DEC manuals, > for all the are built from lots of MSI chips, and there's nothing that > the rest of the world would call a microprocessor (a chip such as a Z80, > 6800, 8080, 6502, etc) > > And I've still not worked out what to class the HP9830 as ;-) > > -tony > Heh! After looking at hp9830.com for just a bit, I think I see your problem. There are some really interesting turns of phrase on that page using forms of the words "calculate" and "compute" in the same sentence. Gotta go read that site in more detail when I have a chance. You'd mentioned it enough times I just had to google and see what it was. Looks like a quite fascinating machine! I'd love to try lunar lander on one. Later, Charlie C. From legalize at xmission.com Fri Aug 20 17:29:18 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 16:29:18 -0600 Subject: Terminals... In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 20 Aug 2010 14:37:03 -0700. <alpine.LFD.2.00.1008201436120.15188@grumble.deltasoft.com> Message-ID: <E1Oma5O-000291-SG@shell.xmission.com> In article <alpine.LFD.2.00.1008201436120.15188 at grumble.deltasoft.com>, Gene Buckle <geneb at deltasoft.com> writes: > On Fri, 20 Aug 2010, Richard wrote: > > > I think he's just one of those middle-man dealers that waits with > > overpriced listings to prey on companies with critical vintage gear > > that suddenly fails. > > > Ahh. I wasn't aware of that "segment". I figured they were just greedy > f*cks the fed on the gullible. I thought I said that. :-) -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com/the-direct3d-graphics-pipeline/> Legalize Adulthood! <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com> From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Fri Aug 20 17:53:42 2010 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 18:53:42 -0400 Subject: 1970s TTL specs and prices In-Reply-To: <57313DAA05B241C09A0CF79DE4906A83@tegp4> Message-ID: <KDEPJCPNDILJKOCCJNOHIEHCDJAA.wh.sudbrink@verizon.net> Tom Gardner wrote: > For some Computer History Museum work I need information on 7400 series Flip > Flops (S and Normal, DIPs) circa 1973 (anything 1970-75). Anyone have any > maximum clock speed and OEM volume pricing information on parts such as 7473 > thru 79 or 74106-116? I'm just out of your range. I have the Texas Instruments TTL Data Book for Design Engineers, Second Edition, 1976. The clocks are in here, but no prices. Bill From IanK at vulcan.com Fri Aug 20 18:04:29 2010 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 16:04:29 -0700 Subject: Origin of the term minicomputer (was Re: PDP-1 as minicomputer In-Reply-To: <4C6EECD4.3090409@verizon.net> References: <m1OmVcz-000J3uC@p850ug1> <4C6EECD4.3090409@verizon.net> Message-ID: <FF6AB92D97A23A409701CDBF66F03FCD03DC3E6EE9@505fuji> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of allison > Sent: Friday, August 20, 2010 2:00 PM > To: On-Topic Posts Only > Subject: Re: Origin of the term minicomputer (was Re: PDP-1 as > minicomputer > [snip] > > The PDP8 was a instruction and mostly compatible but improved > follow on to the all transistor PDP-5 (1963) but much larger than > the first version of the PDP-8 by a factor of three racks. Note the > PDP-5 was almost as large as the PDP1 but was aimed at lower > cost to buy and use. > [snip] > > Allison > One thing I've read is that the PDP-5 was not originally intended to be a general purpose computer, but rather sort of an I/O coprocessor for the PDP-4. Do you have any direct knowledge of that assertion? I also think it's interesting that the program counter in the -5 was originally location 0 of core memory, requiring a minimum of a read-modify-write cycle for each and every instruction.... -- Ian From teoz at neo.rr.com Fri Aug 20 18:42:41 2010 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 19:42:41 -0400 Subject: Terminals... References: <E1OmZ7t-00020T-2c@shell.xmission.com> <alpine.LFD.2.00.1008201436120.15188@grumble.deltasoft.com> Message-ID: <B2D5B931AC8F4E35A43F3F62EDE8FA2A@dell8300> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gene Buckle" <geneb at deltasoft.com> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> Sent: Friday, August 20, 2010 5:37 PM Subject: Re: Terminals... > On Fri, 20 Aug 2010, Richard wrote: > >> >> In article <alpine.LFD.2.00.1008201419240.14663 at grumble.deltasoft.com>, >> Gene Buckle <geneb at deltasoft.com> writes: >> >>> On Fri, 20 Aug 2010, Richard wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> Our old friend "it_equipment_xpress" of course has 510's listed for >>>> $130 >>>> and $443 (for *2* sessions!) that of course haven't sold. >>>> >>> I wonder if he's related to the guy with the $35,000 Kaypro or the guy >>> with the $400 486 motherboard... >> >> I think he's just one of those middle-man dealers that waits with >> overpriced listings to prey on companies with critical vintage gear >> that suddenly fails. >> > Ahh. I wasn't aware of that "segment". I figured they were just greedy > f*cks the fed on the gullible. > > g. Other then soon to be extinct defense contractors, what company these days would spend that kind of cash for old test gear? From ploopster at gmail.com Fri Aug 20 18:57:03 2010 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 19:57:03 -0400 Subject: Mispronouncing acronyms In-Reply-To: <4C6E704F.2841.E105D5@cclist.sydex.com> References: <B136EDE3DF5EC441B6F08E0A7AB872450AC800E4BE@EX2K7-CMS-1.wmata.local>, <016401cb405e$8e396260$200b5f0a@user8459cef6fa>, <4C6ECD3A.2040606@gmail.com> <4C6E704F.2841.E105D5@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4C6F164F.9080604@gmail.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: >> I pronounce a wide variety of IBM mainframe mnemonics. For example >> BALR -> Bal-err. > > I'd start to worry if you began pronouncing CDC 6000 CPU memonics... To be honest, the only reason I don't is because I've never written that kind of code on a daily basis. No matter how unpronounceable the mnemonic, I guarantee that, after a while at least, I'd start pronouncing them. Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Fri Aug 20 19:00:55 2010 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 20:00:55 -0400 Subject: Collection reduction time, advice please In-Reply-To: <AANLkTik=32P_5z+0RJgQgd+B3i1txpZMoEXZYUipFgxp@mail.gmail.com> References: <AANLkTik=32P_5z+0RJgQgd+B3i1txpZMoEXZYUipFgxp@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4C6F1737.7040701@gmail.com> Adrian Graham wrote: > I'm guessing nobody will be interested in my SUN and Cisco kit, or > Research Machines early PCs. I'd be interested, if you weren't so far away. Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Fri Aug 20 19:03:46 2010 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 20:03:46 -0400 Subject: Origin of the term minicomputer (was Re: PDP-1 as minicomputer In-Reply-To: <4C6ED890.9030709@brouhaha.com> References: <m1OmVcz-000J3uC@p850ug1> <4C6ED890.9030709@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4C6F17E2.3060900@gmail.com> Eric Smith wrote: > > But DEC had their own meaning for 'microprocessor' to mean a 'microcoded > > control system'. I seem to remember that the control logic of a VT52 and > > that of the DMC11, etc are called 'microprocessors' in the DEC manuals, > > for all the are built from lots of MSI chips, and there's nothing that > > the rest of the world would call a microprocessor (a chip such as a Z80, > > 6800, 8080, 6502, etc) > > IBM used that definition as well. The "PALM" (Put All Logic in > Microcode) board-level processor of the IBM 5100 Portable Computer, > introduced in 1975, was referred to as a microprocessor. It was > implemented primarily from IBM's "Duchess" TTL gate arrays, containing > up to 134 gates each. Ahem. (Nitpickiness ahead) I believe that gate array isn't called "Duchess". It's called "Dutchess", for the county where I live, and where IBM Poughkeepsie and East Fishkill plants (previously among others) can (could) be found. Peace... Sridhar From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri Aug 20 19:09:31 2010 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 17:09:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Terminals... In-Reply-To: <E1Oma5O-000291-SG@shell.xmission.com> References: <E1Oma5O-000291-SG@shell.xmission.com> Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.00.1008201708310.19842@grumble.deltasoft.com> On Fri, 20 Aug 2010, Richard wrote: > > In article <alpine.LFD.2.00.1008201436120.15188 at grumble.deltasoft.com>, > Gene Buckle <geneb at deltasoft.com> writes: > >> On Fri, 20 Aug 2010, Richard wrote: >> >>> I think he's just one of those middle-man dealers that waits with >>> overpriced listings to prey on companies with critical vintage gear >>> that suddenly fails. >>> >> Ahh. I wasn't aware of that "segment". I figured they were just greedy >> f*cks the fed on the gullible. > > I thought I said that. :-) > There's a big difference between commerical need (and typically the pockets to pay for it) and mugging some poor schmuck that just wants to relive his childhood or the "good old days". g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From ploopster at gmail.com Fri Aug 20 19:09:31 2010 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 20:09:31 -0400 Subject: Terminals... In-Reply-To: <E1OmYib-0003Ej-Px@shell.xmission.com> References: <E1OmYib-0003Ej-Px@shell.xmission.com> Message-ID: <4C6F193B.7030902@gmail.com> Richard wrote: > In article<744DB5469BEB4131832EC66D4BA961F6 at dell8300>, > "Teo Zenios"<teoz at neo.rr.com> writes: > >> How well would a VT525 work with a MicroVAX 3100 series model 80? > > <http://vt100.net/vt_history> says the VT525 is a color multi-session > terminal. So that's a fairly decent model for the 500 series. > > Judging from the programmer's manual, you can select from a palette of > 16 colors. > <http://www.vt100.net/docs/vt520-rm/ek-vt520-rm.pdf> Unfortunately, it uses the later ANSI color stuff rather than the control codes used previously with the VT340/VT241. Peace... Sridhar From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Aug 20 20:50:56 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 21:50:56 -0400 Subject: 1970s TTL specs and prices In-Reply-To: <57313DAA05B241C09A0CF79DE4906A83@tegp4> References: <mailman.3.1282323603.64101.cctalk@classiccmp.org> <57313DAA05B241C09A0CF79DE4906A83@tegp4> Message-ID: <AANLkTi=QpL9asJjFU627jORG3AvVNe_nP-YA+pbZTLrB@mail.gmail.com> > For some Computer History Museum work I need information on 7400 series Flip > Flops (S and Normal, DIPs) circa 1973 (anything 1970-75). ?Anyone have any > maximum clock speed and OEM volume pricing information on parts such as 7473 > thru 79 or 74106-116? I am not at home right now, but if you give me a few days, I will check. I actually keep all OEM price lists I find for pre-1980 electronic parts. Bug me in a few days. -- Will From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Aug 20 22:05:57 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 21:05:57 -0600 Subject: Origin of the term minicomputer (was Re: PDP-1 as minicomputer In-Reply-To: <4C6F17E2.3060900@gmail.com> References: <m1OmVcz-000J3uC@p850ug1> <4C6ED890.9030709@brouhaha.com> <4C6F17E2.3060900@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4C6F4295.7050207@brouhaha.com> I wrote: > IBM 5100 Portable Computer [...] implemented primarily from > IBM's "Duchess" TTL gate arrays, containing up to 134 gates each. Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > I believe that gate array isn't called "Duchess". It's called "Dutchess", Sorry, I had to save up some "t"s for the immediately following "TTL". Eric From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Aug 20 23:13:57 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 22:13:57 -0600 Subject: Origin of the term minicomputer (was Re: PDP-1 as minicomputer In-Reply-To: <4C6EECD4.3090409@verizon.net> References: <m1OmVcz-000J3uC@p850ug1> <4C6EECD4.3090409@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4C6F5285.4090000@brouhaha.com> Allison wrote: > After the 8080 microprocessor tended to mean a cpu on one chip > or very few for example CDP1800/1801 a two chip predecessor > of the COSMAC CDP1802. The CDP1801 was the two-chip processor. There wasn't a CDP1800, though that designation was used to refer to the entire series of chips. > The PDP8 was a instruction and mostly compatible but improved > follow on to the all transistor PDP-5 (1963) but much larger than > the first version of the PDP-8 by a factor of three racks. Note the > PDP-5 was almost as large as the PDP1 but was aimed at lower > cost to buy and use. I don't think one can reasonably claim that the PDP-5 was "almost as large as the PDP-1", nor that it was "larger than the first version of the PDP-8 by a factor of three racks". The PDP-1 CPU, 4K of core memory, high-speed reader and punch, occupied four racks. Reference: DEC Technical Bulletin F-17, "Programmed Data Processor-1 Maintenance Manual", 1962, page 2-8: "Dimensions, Standard PDP-1, Heighth 69 1/2 inches, Length 99 inches, including 17-inc console desk, width 27 inches". Although the manual also describes one of the four racks as containing "all controls and standard input-output equipment" (p 2-2), that included the console and logic necessary to the operation of the CPU, and was not separable. The PDP-5 CPU and 1K or 4K of core memory occupied a single rack. Reference: DEC document number F-57, "Programmed Data Processor-5 Maintenance Manual", October 1964, page 1-11: "The standard PDP-5 is contained in a single DEC computer cabinet 60-1/8 inches high, 47 inches wide, and 27-1/16 inches deep. A table 30 inches wide and 18 inches deep is attached to the front of the cabinet." The 47 inch dimension is actually the dimension perpendicular to the front panel. See figure 1-4 "component locations" and the section "Specifications", both on page 1-12. The PDP-8 CPU and 4K of core memory occupied a single rack. Reference: DEC document number F-87, "Programmed Data Processor-8 Maintenance Manual", February 1966, "Physical Description" (page 1-11): "The standard PDP-8 is designed for either table-top or cabinet mounting, as specified by the customer. In the table-top configuration the computer is a single unit 34-1/16 inches high, 21-1/2 inches wide, and 21-3/4 inches deep." An expanded PDP-5 or PDP-8 might have two or more cabinets, but then an expanded PDP-1 will have more than four cabinets. In conclusion, the PDP-8 was about half the size of the PDP-5, and the PDP-5 was about a quarter of the size of the PDP-1. Eric From cclist at sydex.com Fri Aug 20 23:33:17 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 21:33:17 -0700 Subject: Origin of the term minicomputer (was Re: PDP-1 as minicomputer In-Reply-To: <4C6F5285.4090000@brouhaha.com> References: <m1OmVcz-000J3uC@p850ug1>, <4C6EECD4.3090409@verizon.net>, <4C6F5285.4090000@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4C6EF49D.723.2E5D58B@cclist.sydex.com> An interesting question comes to mind: Are there any minicomputers that are currently produced? If so, what makes them a minicomputer? --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Fri Aug 20 23:34:54 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 21:34:54 -0700 Subject: 1970s TTL specs and prices In-Reply-To: <AANLkTi=QpL9asJjFU627jORG3AvVNe_nP-YA+pbZTLrB@mail.gmail.com> References: <mailman.3.1282323603.64101.cctalk@classiccmp.org>, <57313DAA05B241C09A0CF79DE4906A83@tegp4>, <AANLkTi=QpL9asJjFU627jORG3AvVNe_nP-YA+pbZTLrB@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4C6EF4FE.6770.2E75304@cclist.sydex.com> > For some Computer History Museum work I need information on 7400 > series Flip Flops (S and Normal, DIPs) circa 1973 (anything > 1970-75). ?Anyone have any maximum clock speed and OEM volume > pricing information on parts such as 7473 thru 79 or 74106-116? Be aware that flatpacks were still offered for 7400 series logic in 1970. --Chuck From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Aug 20 23:42:34 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 22:42:34 -0600 Subject: Origin of the term minicomputer (was Re: PDP-1 as minicomputer In-Reply-To: <4C6EF49D.723.2E5D58B@cclist.sydex.com> References: <m1OmVcz-000J3uC@p850ug1>, <4C6EECD4.3090409@verizon.net>, <4C6F5285.4090000@brouhaha.com> <4C6EF49D.723.2E5D58B@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4C6F593A.8030206@brouhaha.com> Chuck wrote: > An interesting question comes to mind: > Are there any minicomputers that are currently produced? IBM System p, which is a POWER7 platform integrating what was known as System i, formerly known as iSeries, and before that, AS/400, which was largely derived from the even earlier System/38. > If so, what makes them a minicomputer? History? Or that it doesn't fit very well in either the minicomputer or mainframe categories? From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Aug 21 00:11:23 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2010 01:11:23 -0400 Subject: Terminals... In-Reply-To: <E1OmYwo-0007Mc-Qy@shell.xmission.com> References: <E1OmYwo-0007Mc-Qy@shell.xmission.com> Message-ID: <4C6F5FFB.5030400@neurotica.com> On 8/20/10 5:16 PM, Richard wrote: >> I don't have a good feel for the present prices for terminal gear, but >> the base VT525 isn't saddled with a CRT and is newish kit, so a >> partial answer is "more than some terminals, less than others". > > Ah... I didn't realize that the 525 had a base separate from the > monitor. The picture on vt100.net must be showing a 510 or 520 with > the monitor/electronics integrated into a single housing. I guess the > 525 just takes a regular VGA monitor? Yes, standard VGA monitor. They're not terrible terminals, but kinda flimsy, not very fast, and most PC-grade monitors are, well, PC-grade. I much prefer VT320s and VT420s. I did run the VT525 with a monochrome VGA monitor for a little while, and that was very nice. Incidentally, the VT525 is in a chassis almost identical to that of the Multia Alpha-based systems. I think they had an x86 system in that chassis at one point as well. > Completed listings on ebay for 510, 520 or 525 terminals shows a 510 sold > for $38+16 shipping and a 520 sold for $45+18 shipping. I just checked my eBay records; I sold mine for $32.00 in 2007. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cclist at sydex.com Sat Aug 21 01:34:57 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 23:34:57 -0700 Subject: Origin of the term minicomputer (was Re: PDP-1 as minicomputer In-Reply-To: <4C6F593A.8030206@brouhaha.com> References: <m1OmVcz-000J3uC@p850ug1>, <4C6EF49D.723.2E5D58B@cclist.sydex.com>, <4C6F593A.8030206@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4C6F1121.15846.3553C29@cclist.sydex.com> On 20 Aug 2010 at 22:42, Eric Smith wrote: > IBM System p, which is a POWER7 platform integrating what was known as > System i, formerly known as iSeries, and before that, AS/400, which > was largely derived from the even earlier System/38. > > > If so, what makes them a minicomputer? > > History? Or that it doesn't fit very well in either the minicomputer > or mainframe categories? Does IBM call it a minicomputer in its marketing literature? I'm just wondering if the mainframe, mini and micro terms are vanishing. After all, *everything* is a microcomputer nowadays, isn't it? --Chuck From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sat Aug 21 01:51:46 2010 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 23:51:46 -0700 Subject: Origin of the term minicomputer (was Re: PDP-1 as minicomputer In-Reply-To: <4C6F1121.15846.3553C29@cclist.sydex.com> References: <m1OmVcz-000J3uC@p850ug1>, <4C6EF49D.723.2E5D58B@cclist.sydex.com>, <4C6F593A.8030206@brouhaha.com> <4C6F1121.15846.3553C29@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <ff2c50997249f80c0812a19e0d80e6e4@cs.ubc.ca> On 2010 Aug 20, at 11:34 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 20 Aug 2010 at 22:42, Eric Smith wrote: > >> IBM System p, which is a POWER7 platform integrating what was known as >> System i, formerly known as iSeries, and before that, AS/400, which >> was largely derived from the even earlier System/38. >> >>> If so, what makes them a minicomputer? >> >> History? Or that it doesn't fit very well in either the minicomputer >> or mainframe categories? > > Does IBM call it a minicomputer in its marketing literature? I'm > just wondering if the mainframe, mini and micro terms are vanishing. > After all, *everything* is a microcomputer nowadays, isn't it? > Well, I occasionally have to grit my teeth when I hear 'mainframe' applied to more or less anything that is not a home/personal computer. For the most part, from the lay perspective these days, it seems there are just 'computers' (the thing on the table in front of you), and 'servers' (the thing at the other end of the ADSL/cable/phone/network connection). From legalize at xmission.com Sat Aug 21 11:23:28 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2010 10:23:28 -0600 Subject: Terminals... In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 20 Aug 2010 17:09:31 -0700. <alpine.LFD.2.00.1008201708310.19842@grumble.deltasoft.com> Message-ID: <E1Omqqu-0005pm-8S@shell.xmission.com> In article <alpine.LFD.2.00.1008201708310.19842 at grumble.deltasoft.com>, Gene Buckle <geneb at deltasoft.com> writes: > On Fri, 20 Aug 2010, Richard wrote: > > > > > In article <alpine.LFD.2.00.1008201436120.15188 at grumble.deltasoft.com>, > > Gene Buckle <geneb at deltasoft.com> writes: > > > >> On Fri, 20 Aug 2010, Richard wrote: > >> > >>> I think he's just one of those middle-man dealers that waits with > >>> overpriced listings to prey on companies with critical vintage gear > >>> that suddenly fails. > >>> > >> Ahh. I wasn't aware of that "segment". I figured they were just greedy > >> f*cks the fed on the gullible. > > > > I thought I said that. :-) > > > There's a big difference between commerical need (and typically the > pockets to pay for it) and mugging some poor schmuck that just wants to > relive his childhood or the "good old days". Yeah, they care about (and price for) the former and don't give a shit about the latter. I've seen more than one vendor express the sentiment that once the former market dries up, they send stuff straight to the scrappers. Even though the latter market would pay more than scrap value, they just blow them off. As a capitalist, personally I think that's stupid. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com/the-direct3d-graphics-pipeline/> Legalize Adulthood! <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com> From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Aug 21 12:40:53 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2010 10:40:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Origin of the term minicomputer (was Re: PDP-1 as minicomputer In-Reply-To: <ff2c50997249f80c0812a19e0d80e6e4@cs.ubc.ca> References: <m1OmVcz-000J3uC@p850ug1>, <4C6EF49D.723.2E5D58B@cclist.sydex.com>, <4C6F593A.8030206@brouhaha.com> <4C6F1121.15846.3553C29@cclist.sydex.com> <ff2c50997249f80c0812a19e0d80e6e4@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <20100821103958.J83608@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 20 Aug 2010, Brent Hilpert wrote: > Well, I occasionally have to grit my teeth when I hear 'mainframe' > applied to more or less anything that is not a home/personal computer. particularly when it gets called a "main frame" From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sat Aug 21 13:24:47 2010 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2010 11:24:47 -0700 Subject: 1970s TTL specs and prices In-Reply-To: <57313DAA05B241C09A0CF79DE4906A83@tegp4> References: <mailman.3.1282323603.64101.cctalk@classiccmp.org> <57313DAA05B241C09A0CF79DE4906A83@tegp4> Message-ID: <17dbd76df89836d82320a900dd3576a1@cs.ubc.ca> On 2010 Aug 20, at 11:23 AM, Tom Gardner wrote: > For some Computer History Museum work I need information on 7400 > series Flip > Flops (S and Normal, DIPs) circa 1973 (anything 1970-75). Anyone have > any > maximum clock speed and OEM volume pricing information on parts such > as 7473 > thru 79 or 74106-116? > > I must be getting old because I remember the 7474 well but I thru out > my > Yellow books years ago :-) Well, just to add to the list, I have the 1969, 1973 and 1981 TTL databooks from TI, as well as a 1965 TI component catalog listing some TTL devices (also various from Fairchild, National and Moto). As with others though, I haven't managed to dig up any prices. Here are a few datapoints for max clock rates: book device min typical full title/desc ------- ------ ------ ------- ----------------- TI/1965 7470 (40ns->25MHz)[1] "1965 Semiconductor and Components Catalog" TI/1969 74H106 40 MHz 50 MHz "TTL Integrated Circuit Catalog from Texas Instruments", 1 August 1969 TI/1973 74S112 80 MHz 125 MHz "The TTL Data Book for Design Engineers", Copyright 1973 TI/1981 74S112 80 MHz 125 MHz "The TTL Data Book for Design Engineers - Second Edition", Copyright 1981, 3rd Printing In each book those are the highest rates I see for single/dual FFs. So it appears for such devices 7400 TTL had plateaued at 125 MHz by 1973 (if not earlier). MSI counters show lower max rates. [1] The 1965 ref presents only a 40ns propagation delay. From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sat Aug 21 14:11:13 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2010 15:11:13 -0400 Subject: Origin of the term minicomputer (was Re: PDP-1 as minicomputer In-Reply-To: <4C6F1121.15846.3553C29@cclist.sydex.com> References: <m1OmVcz-000J3uC@p850ug1> <4C6EF49D.723.2E5D58B@cclist.sydex.com> <4C6F593A.8030206@brouhaha.com> <4C6F1121.15846.3553C29@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <AANLkTinN19jm1KkFmANgi6AAag1o2xRA9vsQ-eBpDbYm@mail.gmail.com> > After all, *everything* is a microcomputer nowadays, isn't it? Pretty much, yes. I suppose the "youngest" mini architecture is the RS/6000, since it originally was made of multiple gate arrays (seven maybe?). -- Will From geneb at deltasoft.com Sat Aug 21 14:12:12 2010 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2010 12:12:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Terminals... In-Reply-To: <E1Omqqu-0005pm-8S@shell.xmission.com> References: <E1Omqqu-0005pm-8S@shell.xmission.com> Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.00.1008211209430.21793@grumble.deltasoft.com> >>> >> There's a big difference between commerical need (and typically the >> pockets to pay for it) and mugging some poor schmuck that just wants to >> relive his childhood or the "good old days". > > Yeah, they care about (and price for) the former and don't give a shit > about the latter. > > I've seen more than one vendor express the sentiment that once the > former market dries up, they send stuff straight to the scrappers. > Even though the latter market would pay more than scrap value, they > just blow them off. > > As a capitalist, personally I think that's stupid. > It's really not that surprising considering they're the high-tech version of the knuckle-dragging, beer swilling ass-hats that populate the low-tech scrap industry. I've personally witnessed machines being fed to a shredder for scrap value because the stupid shit couldn't get someone to pay the outrageos(sp) price he wanted for the machine. (uVAX II, wanted $4k in 2005) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From ploopster at gmail.com Sat Aug 21 14:12:34 2010 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2010 15:12:34 -0400 Subject: Origin of the term minicomputer (was Re: PDP-1 as minicomputer In-Reply-To: <4C6F1121.15846.3553C29@cclist.sydex.com> References: <m1OmVcz-000J3uC@p850ug1>, <4C6EF49D.723.2E5D58B@cclist.sydex.com>, <4C6F593A.8030206@brouhaha.com> <4C6F1121.15846.3553C29@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4C702522.7030601@gmail.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > Does IBM call it a minicomputer in its marketing literature? I'm > just wondering if the mainframe, mini and micro terms are vanishing. > After all, *everything* is a microcomputer nowadays, isn't it? There are still quite a few mainframes that I would have trouble calling a microcomputer. Even the machines with multiple microprocessors running in lock-step. The processor is the board with the multiple microprocessors and the lock-stepping and result-comparison hardware. Peace... Sridhar From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sat Aug 21 14:14:01 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2010 15:14:01 -0400 Subject: PDP-1 as minicomputer - and were there midi's in this galaxy? In-Reply-To: <4C6DF0EC.2080607@tx.rr.com> References: <AANLkTi=RENp1PERbsgCgZg4nkHWqPOVKpaqmROydrTqR@mail.gmail.com> <AANLkTi=L4hDaWSFPyO6k4RKjogB23j153gaDOSGyJyk1@mail.gmail.com> <SNT129-W46023395357A7CC046E8AA39C0@phx.gbl> <4C6AAD20.2112.1A44E15@cclist.sydex.com> <FF6AB92D97A23A409701CDBF66F03FCD03DC3E6ECD@505fuji> <4C6DF0EC.2080607@tx.rr.com> Message-ID: <AANLkTimA6zgMBuUDJJSY2bOKvaLF2FW+sqYWyDVEVv6_@mail.gmail.com> > Am I just all wet thinking that there was a class (admittedly with rather > fuzzy edges) of machines that could logically be called midi's? The only people that actually used the terms "midicomputer" and "maxicomputer" were people writing "Introduction to Data Processing" textbooks of the early 80s. Out in the real world, these terms were not used, and would probably get someone thrown out of the data center if mentioned. -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sat Aug 21 14:15:42 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2010 15:15:42 -0400 Subject: 1970s TTL specs and prices In-Reply-To: <4C6EF4FE.6770.2E75304@cclist.sydex.com> References: <mailman.3.1282323603.64101.cctalk@classiccmp.org> <57313DAA05B241C09A0CF79DE4906A83@tegp4> <AANLkTi=QpL9asJjFU627jORG3AvVNe_nP-YA+pbZTLrB@mail.gmail.com> <4C6EF4FE.6770.2E75304@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <AANLkTinV3AW3QgqbLSUYTuosE=DcoZ4+WWVam1k2JaN5@mail.gmail.com> > Be aware that flatpacks were still offered for 7400 series logic in > 1970. Well into the 1980s, for the military market. Honeywell minis (316) used non-mil-spec flatpacks for some reason. -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sat Aug 21 14:18:11 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2010 15:18:11 -0400 Subject: Terminals... In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.2.00.1008211209430.21793@grumble.deltasoft.com> References: <E1Omqqu-0005pm-8S@shell.xmission.com> <alpine.LFD.2.00.1008211209430.21793@grumble.deltasoft.com> Message-ID: <AANLkTikZ0=12q5GAPnEXMkaGi3Ud4ZrqGp=p8T4vR=TM@mail.gmail.com> > It's really not that surprising considering they're the high-tech version of > the knuckle-dragging, beer swilling ass-hats that populate the low-tech > scrap industry. So...now you know why the scrap industry generally does not like us. Scrappers are not stupid, but they can certainly be spiteful. -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sat Aug 21 14:23:47 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2010 15:23:47 -0400 Subject: Terminals... In-Reply-To: <E1Omqqu-0005pm-8S@shell.xmission.com> References: <alpine.LFD.2.00.1008201708310.19842@grumble.deltasoft.com> <E1Omqqu-0005pm-8S@shell.xmission.com> Message-ID: <AANLkTim=zZE5XsF0TbqMYxJ0x+8sLgB8uoD4PpATX6dh@mail.gmail.com> > Yeah, they care about (and price for) the former and don't give a shit > about the latter. > > I've seen more than one vendor express the sentiment that once the > former market dries up, they send stuff straight to the scrappers. > Even though the latter market would pay more than scrap value, they > just blow them off. They often do not give a shit because they are really sick and tired of getting lowballed by collectors, or getting their names dragged through the mud. More than a few scrappers have actually taken a loss on something, just to piss off collectors that throw around nickels like they were manhole covers. For example, there is a guy near me that buried a bunch of high end communication receivers (military R-390s) on his property, because he received one too many lowball offers. -- Will From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Aug 21 14:25:35 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2010 15:25:35 -0400 Subject: Terminals... In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikZ0=12q5GAPnEXMkaGi3Ud4ZrqGp=p8T4vR=TM@mail.gmail.com> References: <E1Omqqu-0005pm-8S@shell.xmission.com> <alpine.LFD.2.00.1008211209430.21793@grumble.deltasoft.com> <AANLkTikZ0=12q5GAPnEXMkaGi3Ud4ZrqGp=p8T4vR=TM@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4C70282F.4090101@neurotica.com> On 8/21/10 3:18 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >> It's really not that surprising considering they're the high-tech version of >> the knuckle-dragging, beer swilling ass-hats that populate the low-tech >> scrap industry. > > So...now you know why the scrap industry generally does not like us. > > Scrappers are not stupid, but they can certainly be spiteful. From what I've seen, many are quite a bit of both. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From teoz at neo.rr.com Sat Aug 21 14:30:40 2010 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2010 15:30:40 -0400 Subject: Terminals... References: <E1Omqqu-0005pm-8S@shell.xmission.com><alpine.LFD.2.00.1008211209430.21793@grumble.deltasoft.com> <AANLkTikZ0=12q5GAPnEXMkaGi3Ud4ZrqGp=p8T4vR=TM@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <64627A39E0B6400E8CA4957F2A31D0DC@dell8300> ----- Original Message ----- From: "William Donzelli" <wdonzelli at gmail.com> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> Sent: Saturday, August 21, 2010 3:18 PM Subject: Re: Terminals... >> It's really not that surprising considering they're the high-tech version >> of >> the knuckle-dragging, beer swilling ass-hats that populate the low-tech >> scrap industry. > > So...now you know why the scrap industry generally does not like us. > > Scrappers are not stupid, but they can certainly be spiteful. > > -- > Will They can be. If they think something is worth $4000 and you offer only $400 they would rather crush it then look like a chump. Some of that has to do with the fact that they make money without side sales just by scrapping, and have no money in the items (get them free or charge a recycling fee). Its not just scrappers, even some collectors who get things free and think they are worth major money will do the same thing because it is "not worth their time" to deal with lower offers. From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Aug 21 14:48:36 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2010 15:48:36 -0400 Subject: Terminals... In-Reply-To: <AANLkTim=zZE5XsF0TbqMYxJ0x+8sLgB8uoD4PpATX6dh@mail.gmail.com> References: <alpine.LFD.2.00.1008201708310.19842@grumble.deltasoft.com> <E1Omqqu-0005pm-8S@shell.xmission.com> <AANLkTim=zZE5XsF0TbqMYxJ0x+8sLgB8uoD4PpATX6dh@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4C702D94.1030806@neurotica.com> On 8/21/10 3:23 PM, William Donzelli wrote: > They often do not give a shit because they are really sick and tired > of getting lowballed by collectors, or getting their names dragged > through the mud. More than a few scrappers have actually taken a loss > on something, just to piss off collectors that throw around nickels > like they were manhole covers. For example, there is a guy near me > that buried a bunch of high end communication receivers (military > R-390s) on his property, because he received one too many lowball > offers. There's spite, then there's complete and utter stupidity. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Aug 21 14:49:19 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2010 12:49:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Origin of the term minicomputer (was Re: PDP-1 as minicomputer In-Reply-To: <AANLkTinN19jm1KkFmANgi6AAag1o2xRA9vsQ-eBpDbYm@mail.gmail.com> References: <m1OmVcz-000J3uC@p850ug1> <4C6EF49D.723.2E5D58B@cclist.sydex.com> <4C6F593A.8030206@brouhaha.com> <4C6F1121.15846.3553C29@cclist.sydex.com> <AANLkTinN19jm1KkFmANgi6AAag1o2xRA9vsQ-eBpDbYm@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20100821124828.V87695@shell.lmi.net> On Sat, 21 Aug 2010, William Donzelli wrote: > Pretty much, yes. I suppose the "youngest" mini architecture is the > RS/6000, since it originally was made of multiple gate arrays (seven > maybe?). ISTR the RS/6000 (68000?) being called a microcomputer. But it was out of my price range. From spectre at floodgap.com Sat Aug 21 14:54:42 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2010 12:54:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Origin of the term minicomputer (was Re: PDP-1 as minicomputer In-Reply-To: <20100821124828.V87695@shell.lmi.net> from Fred Cisin at "Aug 21, 10 12:49:19 pm" Message-ID: <201008211954.o7LJsg70018510@floodgap.com> > > Pretty much, yes. I suppose the "youngest" mini architecture is the > > RS/6000, since it originally was made of multiple gate arrays (seven > > maybe?). > > ISTR the RS/6000 (68000?) being called a microcomputer. But it was out of > my price range. RS/6000 is POWER. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- I know you're out there, Eh!Steve! ----------------------------------------- From geneb at deltasoft.com Sat Aug 21 14:58:28 2010 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2010 12:58:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Terminals... In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikZ0=12q5GAPnEXMkaGi3Ud4ZrqGp=p8T4vR=TM@mail.gmail.com> References: <E1Omqqu-0005pm-8S@shell.xmission.com> <alpine.LFD.2.00.1008211209430.21793@grumble.deltasoft.com> <AANLkTikZ0=12q5GAPnEXMkaGi3Ud4ZrqGp=p8T4vR=TM@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.00.1008211258090.23703@grumble.deltasoft.com> On Sat, 21 Aug 2010, William Donzelli wrote: >> It's really not that surprising considering they're the high-tech version of >> the knuckle-dragging, beer swilling ass-hats that populate the low-tech >> scrap industry. > > So...now you know why the scrap industry generally does not like us. > > Scrappers are not stupid, but they can certainly be spiteful. > They're stupid because they _are_ spiteful. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Aug 21 15:23:50 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2010 21:23:50 +0100 (BST) Subject: 1970s TTL specs and prices In-Reply-To: <4C6EDE5C.7010005@telus.net> from "John Robertson" at Aug 20, 10 12:58:20 pm Message-ID: <m1Omubc-000J3uC@p850ug1> > I'm with Tony on keeping old data books. In our shop we service While it's great being able to get data sheets on the web, I do find the paper data books much easier to use at the workbench. And there are plenty of data sheets that are not on the web (or at least which I can't find there)... > everything coin operated from around 1900 and later. I have tube and > thyrotron books from the 1930s through 60s, catalogs on magnetic memory > cores (used in Seeburg jukeboxes in the mid-50s through mid 70s), early > transistor books (late 50s), then digital logic books starting with RTL > and early TTL (eg. TI - Designing with TLL ICs - 1971)... I know I have at least one (valve) databook which includes comments of the form 'This device may be unobtainable due to the current situation' (or something like that). The book is dated 1941.... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Aug 21 15:36:13 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2010 21:36:13 +0100 (BST) Subject: Origin of the term minicomputer (was Re: PDP-1 as minicomputer In-Reply-To: <4C6EE885.30804@tx.rr.com> from "Charlie Carothers" at Aug 20, 10 03:41:41 pm Message-ID: <m1Omunc-000J3yC@p850ug1> > Heh! After looking at hp9830.com for just a bit, I think I see your > problem. There are some really interesting turns of phrase on that page The HP9830 was marketted as a 'calculator', but IMHO it was full-blwon computer. It has a QWERTY keybaord, an alphanumeric display (albeit one line of 32 characters, which is a 'window' onto a 96 character logical line IIRC), and programs in BASIC. I find it to be an interesting machine. It's certainly a candidate for the title 'first personal computer' in that it is an all-in-one desktop machine with ROM BASIC. Put it on a desk, plug it into the mains, turn it on and start typing BASIC. Pretty amazing for 1973. As I mentioned earlier, the processor is mostly simple logic chips with a few ROMs (micorocede and ALU tables). The rest of the machins is also mostly stnadard chips, the only custom parts are ROMs -- those are very custom, not just in the programming, but also the decices themeselves which are HP 512 byte parts (IIRC the chip is 2 256 byte halves, which can be donded out as either a 512*8 or a 256*16 device -- the 256*16 state machine ROM in, e.g. the 59309 digital clock is one of those). Anyway, the ROMs are sufficiently odd that replacing them with more modern parts is non-trivial. The RAMs are standard -- Intel 1103s -- but now very hard to find. But the machine is otherwise very repairable. Of course being HP of that period it's very well made and pleasant to work on. Bit serial machines are not common anyway, which makes this one moderately interesting... > using forms of the words "calculate" and "compute" in the same sentence. > Gotta go read that site in more detail when I have a chance. You'd > mentioned it enough times I just had to google and see what it was. > Looks like a quite fascinating machine! I'd love to try lunar lander on > one. I don't rememebr a lunar lander for it (there's a very famous one for the DEC GT40 terminal...), but anyway. There is some information on the 9830 on http://www.hpmuseum.org/ and rather more (including downloadable user and service manuals, scheamtics, etc) on http://www.hpmuseum.net/ -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Aug 21 15:41:35 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2010 21:41:35 +0100 (BST) Subject: Origin of the term minicomputer (was Re: PDP-1 as minicomputer In-Reply-To: <4C6EECD4.3090409@verizon.net> from "allison" at Aug 20, 10 05:00:04 pm Message-ID: <m1Omusp-000J43C@p850ug1> > >> Never fear, the DEC marketing crowd "fixed" that one too, they were > >> "Supermicrosystems", as per the handbook (1986) which covered the MicroVAX > >> I,II, Micro PDP11/23,73,83. > >> > > OK :-) > > > > > Really they did! Oh, I know they did. I problaby have the Supermicrosystems handbook somewhere... > In the early days about 1974 maybe a bit before, it usually implied > microcoded processor or state machine. VT52 never had a CPU That makes sense.. FWWI, I did look in the HP9830 'service' manual. The CPU control board -- the board containing the microcode ROMs, serquencer, etc is refered to as the 'micro-processosr' by HP. Perhaps the hyphen makes a difference :-) > of any form it was all state machine in microcode and random logic. Just as the defintions of mainframe, minicomputer, and microcomputer are somewhat blurred, I find it very hard to put a dividing line betwee 'state machine' and 'processor' :-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Aug 21 15:50:20 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2010 21:50:20 +0100 (BST) Subject: Origin of the term minicomputer (was Re: PDP-1 as minicomputer In-Reply-To: <20100820151501.A55882@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Aug 20, 10 03:15:54 pm Message-ID: <m1Omv1H-000J49C@p850ug1> > > On Fri, 20 Aug 2010, Tony Duell wrote: > > And I've still not worked out what to class the HP9830 as ;-) > > I thought that you had already established that > as being in a class by itself. Certainly not. It's clearly closely related to the HP9810, HP9820 and HP9821 calculators Ther HP9810 is a 3-level stack RPN calculator, designed to replace the 9100. It displays all 3 stack levels on 7-segment LED displays, with a similar digit size ot those used in early HP handheld machines (they are not quite the same dispalys, the pin bending is different IIRC). The HP9920 is an algerbraic-notation calculator with a 1 line 16 character alphanumeric display Both these machines use magnetic cards for storage and have a built-in card reader. And space for an optional thermal printer (that seems to be almost always ftited). They only have the simple functions (+,-,*,/,sqrt IIRC, but are user-programamble. There are optional ROM modules to add other functions -- the 'maths' ROM, adding SIN/COS/TAN, etc is farily common. As I mentioned in another message, the 9830 is a BASIC-programmed computer/ It uses tape cassettes for storage, and has a built-in interface for the 9866 thermal printer (there is no internal printer). The HP9821 -- the only model in the range that I don't own (and in fact have never seen) is essentally an HP9820 with a tape drive rather than the card reader. It can take the internal thermal printer IRIC. All these machines use the same bit-serial 16 bit processor board set with the same microcode/ So I think they're closely related. -tony From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Aug 21 16:12:01 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2010 17:12:01 -0400 Subject: 1970s TTL specs and prices In-Reply-To: <m1Omubc-000J3uC@p850ug1> References: <m1Omubc-000J3uC@p850ug1> Message-ID: <4C704121.1060707@neurotica.com> On 8/21/10 4:23 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> I'm with Tony on keeping old data books. In our shop we service > > While it's great being able to get data sheets on the web, I do find the > paper data books much easier to use at the workbench. I feel the same way. This is precisely why I have a very fast laser printer in my office, a model that has a very short warm-up time. =) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Aug 21 16:29:00 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2010 14:29:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Origin of the term minicomputer (was Re: PDP-1 as minicomputer In-Reply-To: <201008211954.o7LJsg70018510@floodgap.com> References: <201008211954.o7LJsg70018510@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <20100821142235.I88943@shell.lmi.net> > > ISTR the RS/6000 (68000?) being called a microcomputer. But it was out of > > my price range. On Sat, 21 Aug 2010, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > RS/6000 is POWER. Right I don'tknow how I managed to conflate the RS/6000 with the CS-9000? From pontus at update.uu.se Sat Aug 21 16:50:31 2010 From: pontus at update.uu.se (Pontus) Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2010 23:50:31 +0200 Subject: ebay: uVax II in Austin, TX In-Reply-To: <4C6ECF7A.7020702@jwsss.com> References: <E1OmUxI-00051Y-Cu@shell.xmission.com> <4C6ECF7A.7020702@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <4C704A27.9070601@update.uu.se> I have one of those, but the rack mount version. They are pretty slick. /P jim s wrote: > This vendor also has a Dec Storage server for sale ending very soon > (12 pm CDT) > > 200508059270 > > A lot of the vendors auctions seem to be for equipment which is pretty > old, might be worth scanning the vendor's > other stuff for parts for your pile. > > Thanks Richard. > JIm > > On 8/20/2010 10:00 AM, Richard wrote: >> item # 190433287669 >> >> From nigel.d.williams at gmail.com Sat Aug 21 17:45:31 2010 From: nigel.d.williams at gmail.com (Nigel Williams) Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2010 08:45:31 +1000 Subject: Origin of the term minicomputer (was Re: PDP-1 as minicomputer In-Reply-To: <4C702522.7030601@gmail.com> References: <m1OmVcz-000J3uC@p850ug1> <4C6EF49D.723.2E5D58B@cclist.sydex.com> <4C6F593A.8030206@brouhaha.com> <4C6F1121.15846.3553C29@cclist.sydex.com> <4C702522.7030601@gmail.com> Message-ID: <AANLkTinkJMV4s=e7H0LCZXn0r0J2fDbV2e+=L3u-Sbsw@mail.gmail.com> On Sun, Aug 22, 2010 at 5:12 AM, Sridhar Ayengar <ploopster at gmail.com>wrote: > Chuck Guzis wrote: > >> Does IBM call it a minicomputer in its marketing literature? I'm >> just wondering if the mainframe, mini and micro terms are vanishing. >> After all, *everything* is a microcomputer nowadays, isn't it? >> > > There are still quite a few mainframes that I would have trouble calling a > microcomputer. Even the machines with multiple microprocessors running in > lock-step. The processor is the board with the multiple microprocessors and > the lock-stepping and result-comparison hardware. > This time, Intel marketing to the rescue... >From Intel 432 System Summary; Manager's Perspective, 1981 "The Intel 432 is a microcomputer family.", first line, page 1. and later from page 2: "The goal of the 432 is to significantly reduce the life-cycle costs of complex microcomputer applications. Toward this end, the 432 introduces a new computer technology, an integrated system of hardware, software and methodology. The technology of the 432 preserves the traditional microprocessor virtues of low cost, small physical size and low power consumption. Like a mainframe family, it offers a 32-bit architecture and spans a range of performance. In other important ways, the 432 resembles no computer of the past. Considered as a whole, its new technology constitutes a breakthrough in computer system design. To emphasize that this technology is inadequately described by conventional computer 'classifications,' the Intel 432 is called the Micromainframe family." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_iAPX_432 You can just tell they were excited about this product. cheers, nigel (self appointed #2 iAPX 432 fanboi, after Eric Smith, titular #1 fanboi) From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sat Aug 21 18:10:36 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2010 19:10:36 -0400 Subject: Terminals... In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.2.00.1008211258090.23703@grumble.deltasoft.com> References: <E1Omqqu-0005pm-8S@shell.xmission.com> <alpine.LFD.2.00.1008211209430.21793@grumble.deltasoft.com> <AANLkTikZ0=12q5GAPnEXMkaGi3Ud4ZrqGp=p8T4vR=TM@mail.gmail.com> <alpine.LFD.2.00.1008211258090.23703@grumble.deltasoft.com> Message-ID: <AANLkTikvaf=wxKYX+SyFRPORBDC3_tOF-_JD1Tjj6Jqg@mail.gmail.com> > They're stupid because they _are_ spiteful. But they can get away with being spiteful. Scrappers tend to make a very good living, even though they may look like the dregs of society. A loss here and there just to be spiteful is often just a drop in the ocean, and is easily recovered by the next home run deal the walk into. Really guys, I have said this all before. Badmouthing scrappers and dealers amounts to shooting yourselves in the foot. There are a few on this list - they are listening. -- Will From legalize at xmission.com Sat Aug 21 18:17:29 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2010 17:17:29 -0600 Subject: Terminals... In-Reply-To: Your message of Sat, 21 Aug 2010 15:23:47 -0400. <AANLkTim=zZE5XsF0TbqMYxJ0x+8sLgB8uoD4PpATX6dh@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <E1OmxJZ-0000Yt-TT@shell.xmission.com> In article <AANLkTim=zZE5XsF0TbqMYxJ0x+8sLgB8uoD4PpATX6dh at mail.gmail.com>, William Donzelli <wdonzelli at gmail.com> writes: > They often do not give a shit because they are really sick and tired > of getting lowballed by collectors, [...] As a capitalist I'm OK with asking them their price. Generally their prices put me out of the market, however. I am willing to pay more than scrap value, but I can't afford critical-replacement-part prices. I have no problem with them making a profit from me, but its not a critical piece of my business that I'm purchasing, it is for my collection. I try to cultivate a working relationship with anyone who I think can help me with my goals. That includes scrappers or other vendors. They don't seem interested in cultivating a relationship however, including dealers that are in Salt Lake City (but don't have a public storefront, so I can't visit them in person, I can only network by phone and email). My point is that I'm more profit than scrap, I'm not an asshole, but I am less profit than the critical replacement part customer. I'm willing to wait until there are no more critical replacement customers. I'm willing to trade things I have in excess that are more valuable in the critical-replacement-part market than what I would like to trade from their inventory. When I am talking to a dealer, I offer what I think is a fair value based on my observations of sales on ebay and other outlets. When they ask 10x what people are routinely paying on ebay, I can only conclude that they're looking to gouge me or aren't paying attention to the market. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com/the-direct3d-graphics-pipeline/> Legalize Adulthood! <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com> From legalize at xmission.com Sat Aug 21 18:20:05 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2010 17:20:05 -0600 Subject: Terminals... In-Reply-To: Your message of Sat, 21 Aug 2010 19:10:36 -0400. <AANLkTikvaf=wxKYX+SyFRPORBDC3_tOF-_JD1Tjj6Jqg@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <E1OmxM5-0001IP-7Z@shell.xmission.com> In article <AANLkTikvaf=wxKYX+SyFRPORBDC3_tOF-_JD1Tjj6Jqg at mail.gmail.com>, William Donzelli <wdonzelli at gmail.com> writes: > Really guys, I have said this all before. Badmouthing scrappers and > dealers amounts to shooting yourselves in the foot. There are a few on > this list - they are listening. As a capitalist, I'm just saying I don't understand their business model. I'm willing to pay more than scrap, but they shut me out because I won't pay corporate critical replacement prices on things that they aren't selling anyway. (I watch their closed listings on ebay, they get stuff that they relist over and over and over and never sell at the prices they are asking. Wouldn't they rather sell it than sit on it? Apparently not.) -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com/the-direct3d-graphics-pipeline/> Legalize Adulthood! <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com> From ploopster at gmail.com Sat Aug 21 18:52:39 2010 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2010 19:52:39 -0400 Subject: Origin of the term minicomputer (was Re: PDP-1 as minicomputer In-Reply-To: <20100821124828.V87695@shell.lmi.net> References: <m1OmVcz-000J3uC@p850ug1> <4C6EF49D.723.2E5D58B@cclist.sydex.com> <4C6F593A.8030206@brouhaha.com> <4C6F1121.15846.3553C29@cclist.sydex.com> <AANLkTinN19jm1KkFmANgi6AAag1o2xRA9vsQ-eBpDbYm@mail.gmail.com> <20100821124828.V87695@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4C7066C7.50101@gmail.com> Fred Cisin wrote: > On Sat, 21 Aug 2010, William Donzelli wrote: >> Pretty much, yes. I suppose the "youngest" mini architecture is the >> RS/6000, since it originally was made of multiple gate arrays (seven >> maybe?). > > ISTR the RS/6000 (68000?) being called a microcomputer. But it was out of > my price range. RS/6000 isn't 68k based. It's POWER-based. The "R" in "RS/6000" stands for "RISC". Peace... Sridhar From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sat Aug 21 19:45:13 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2010 20:45:13 -0400 Subject: Terminals... In-Reply-To: <E1OmxJZ-0000Yt-TT@shell.xmission.com> References: <AANLkTim=zZE5XsF0TbqMYxJ0x+8sLgB8uoD4PpATX6dh@mail.gmail.com> <E1OmxJZ-0000Yt-TT@shell.xmission.com> Message-ID: <AANLkTik-4_GPbL=R_C_5161r7NgrimroakWZuH6dAgCz@mail.gmail.com> > I try to cultivate a working relationship with anyone who I think can > help me with my goals. ?That includes scrappers or other vendors. > They don't seem interested in cultivating a relationship however, > including dealers that are in Salt Lake City (but don't have a public > storefront, so I can't visit them in person, I can only network by > phone and email). ?My point is that I'm more profit than scrap, I'm > not an asshole, but I am less profit than the critical replacement > part customer. You are not the asshole, but the legions that came before you were. Time heals, as they say, but continuing to have open season on the scrappers is not helping the situation. The bad name we have given ourselves will continue, and more good stuff will be lost.. -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sat Aug 21 19:53:58 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2010 20:53:58 -0400 Subject: Terminals... In-Reply-To: <E1OmxJZ-0000Yt-TT@shell.xmission.com> References: <AANLkTim=zZE5XsF0TbqMYxJ0x+8sLgB8uoD4PpATX6dh@mail.gmail.com> <E1OmxJZ-0000Yt-TT@shell.xmission.com> Message-ID: <AANLkTimpGkrUJXQnzrK8U1SjtjQyvpcadRjO2D2q8Mvp@mail.gmail.com> > They don't seem interested in cultivating a relationship however, The best things you can do to cultivate a *positive* relationship are: 1) do not act superior 2) bring him business -- Will From thrashbarg at kaput.homeunix.org Sat Aug 21 21:26:24 2010 From: thrashbarg at kaput.homeunix.org (Alexis) Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2010 11:56:24 +0930 Subject: SDK-85 ROM Image? Message-ID: <1282443984.1960.9.camel@fubar> Hi, I have an Intel SDK-85 System Design Kit here (single board computer) which doesn't want to turn on. After some debugging, I'm fairly confident it's the ROM that's dead, but I can't find an image for it on the Internet. If someone has a copy of the ROM image, or is willing to dump it, I would greatly appreciate it. Thanks, Alexis. From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Sat Aug 21 22:22:22 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2010 00:22:22 -0300 Subject: Terminals... References: <alpine.LFD.2.00.1008201708310.19842@grumble.deltasoft.com><E1Omqqu-0005pm-8S@shell.xmission.com> <AANLkTim=zZE5XsF0TbqMYxJ0x+8sLgB8uoD4PpATX6dh@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <262101cb41a9$b8e9f550$0600000a@portajara> > like they were manhole covers. For example, there is a guy near me > that buried a bunch of high end communication receivers (military > R-390s) on his property, because he received one too many lowball > offers. Very smart from him. I believe he loves burning money. From thrashbarg at kaput.homeunix.org Sun Aug 22 00:55:48 2010 From: thrashbarg at kaput.homeunix.org (Alexis) Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2010 15:25:48 +0930 Subject: SDK-85 ROM Image? In-Reply-To: <1282443984.1960.9.camel@fubar> References: <1282443984.1960.9.camel@fubar> Message-ID: <1282456548.1960.10.camel@fubar> On Sun, 2010-08-22 at 11:56 +0930, Alexis wrote: > Hi, > > I have an Intel SDK-85 System Design Kit here (single board computer) > which doesn't want to turn on. After some debugging, I'm fairly > confident it's the ROM that's dead, but I can't find an image for it on > the Internet. > > If someone has a copy of the ROM image, or is willing to dump it, I > would greatly appreciate it. > > Thanks, > > Alexis. I found one in here, http://www.freevbcode.com/source/0509/sdk_85.zip Cheers, Alexis. From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sun Aug 22 08:26:01 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2010 06:26:01 -0700 Subject: Terminals... In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikZ0=12q5GAPnEXMkaGi3Ud4ZrqGp=p8T4vR=TM@mail.gmail.com> References: <E1Omqqu-0005pm-8S@shell.xmission.com>, <alpine.LFD.2.00.1008211209430.21793@grumble.deltasoft.com>, <AANLkTikZ0=12q5GAPnEXMkaGi3Ud4ZrqGp=p8T4vR=TM@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <SNT129-W574915E8FD4EE37C499CA0A3810@phx.gbl> > From: wdonzelli at gmail.com > > > It's really not that surprising considering they're the high-tech version of > > the knuckle-dragging, beer swilling ass-hats that populate the low-tech > > scrap industry. > > So...now you know why the scrap industry generally does not like us. > > Scrappers are not stupid, but they can certainly be spiteful. > > -- > Will Hi Sometimes they don't know the values of the items they have and often don't want to take the time to find out. I had a neighbor that was a scrapper ( mostly stainless steel and food processing machinery ). He had a bunch of Standard Bus boards that he asked if I wanted any. I took a couple as I thought many of them had too great a value as is or for the components. Later, I found that he'd sold then by the pound. Each one had a 80C187 chip on it. Just one of those was worth more than he got for the entire pile. I wish now that I'd save the lot. He was an OK guy just trying to pay the rent. Dwight From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sun Aug 22 08:52:42 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2010 06:52:42 -0700 Subject: Terminals... In-Reply-To: <AANLkTim=zZE5XsF0TbqMYxJ0x+8sLgB8uoD4PpATX6dh@mail.gmail.com> References: <alpine.LFD.2.00.1008201708310.19842@grumble.deltasoft.com>, <E1Omqqu-0005pm-8S@shell.xmission.com>, <AANLkTim=zZE5XsF0TbqMYxJ0x+8sLgB8uoD4PpATX6dh@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <SNT129-W60E0F630322E5ABA8C182A3810@phx.gbl> > From: wdonzelli at gmail.com > ---snip--- For example, there is a guy near me > that buried a bunch of high end communication receivers (military > R-390s) on his property, because he received one too many lowball > offers. Hi I'd love to have an R-390. Especially one with the mechanical filters. I just can't affort even the price they get on eBay. There was a RACAL that I liked a lot as well ( can't recall the name but I do recall almost being killed by one that I was tuning the IF strip ). Dwight From dfnr2 at yahoo.com Sun Aug 22 09:31:20 2010 From: dfnr2 at yahoo.com (Dave) Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2010 07:31:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Coherent 3.1.0... In-Reply-To: <4C47B116.6070209@oldskool.org> References: <AANLkTikNh56hUWandkoJBBDhIAYLPnIdrqnQrB9uXQ5M@mail.gmail.com> <p06240830c86d51a59bac@[192.168.1.199]> <4C47B116.6070209@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <850592.47703.qm@web38103.mail.mud.yahoo.com> On 7/21/2010 9:46PM Jim Leonard Wrote: > Towards the end of the company, most of our sales were from either SCO >developers who wanted to pay $99 for a > COFF-binary unix compiler instead of $1200 from SCO, or from new Linux users >who wanted the gigantic and > awesome Coherent manual. My copy of the manual outlasted the actual installation by at least 10 years. It somehow got lost during a move. I used Coherent from 1989 to 1991, when I switched to Linux. Coherent was a really slick system considering the 64k+64k limitation. -- David Fenyes ________________________________ From: Jim Leonard <trixter at oldskool.org> To: General at mail.mobygames.com; On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org> Sent: Wed, July 21, 2010 9:46:46 PM Subject: Re: Coherent 3.1.0... On 7/21/2010 8:43 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: > At 4:56 PM -0700 7/21/10, Mark Davidson wrote: >> Woo-hoo! Just bought a copy (sealed, apparently) of Coherent 3.1.0 on >> EBay! That made my day... >> >> Mark > > Nice! I remember reading about Coherent 3.1 when I was first starting > out with Linux. Back in the Linux 0.12 days I really wished I could > afford a commercial UNIX variant, now everything is Linux. T -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From dm561 at torfree.net Sun Aug 22 09:55:37 2010 From: dm561 at torfree.net (MikeS) Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2010 10:55:37 -0400 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 84, Issue 41 References: <mailman.63.1282437921.1006.cctalk@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <133BC9BAEEC3422E95C51328F8C9DB68@vl420mt> Message: 13 Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2010 12:49:19 -0700 (PDT) From: Fred Cisin <cisin at xenosoft.com> Subject: Re: Origin of the term minicomputer (was Re: PDP-1 as minicomputer To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <20100821124828.V87695 at shell.lmi.net> Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Sat, 21 Aug 2010, William Donzelli wrote: >> Pretty much, yes. I suppose the "youngest" mini architecture is the >> RS/6000, since it originally was made of multiple gate arrays (seven >> maybe?). >ISTR the RS/6000 (68000?) being called a microcomputer. But it was out of >my price range. ----------- Gee, I just offered a nice classic RS/6000-520 that you coulda had for free ;-) Lots o' 40-bit memory, 32 ports, SCSI HD & tape; really hated to see it go to the dump. m From dm561 at torfree.net Sun Aug 22 10:21:52 2010 From: dm561 at torfree.net (MikeS) Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2010 11:21:52 -0400 Subject: 1970s TTL specs and prices References: <mailman.63.1282437921.1006.cctalk@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <2D02B8EB701949E3832F4AD50BBAAB4E@vl420mt> Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2010 11:24:47 -0700 From: Brent Hilpert <hilpert at cs.ubc.ca> Subject: Re: 1970s TTL specs and prices To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <17dbd76df89836d82320a900dd3576a1 at cs.ubc.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed On 2010 Aug 20, at 11:23 AM, Tom Gardner wrote: > For some Computer History Museum work I need information on 7400 > series Flip > Flops (S and Normal, DIPs) circa 1973 (anything 1970-75). Anyone have > any > maximum clock speed and OEM volume pricing information on parts such > as 7473 > thru 79 or 74106-116? > > I must be getting old because I remember the 7474 well but I thru out > my > Yellow books years ago :-) Well, just to add to the list, I have the 1969, 1973 and 1981 TTL databooks from TI, as well as a 1965 TI component catalog listing some TTL devices (also various from Fairchild, National and Moto). As with others though, I haven't managed to dig up any prices. ... ---------------- FWIW, approx. Canadian 100-1000 prices in 1977: Gates: .28 F-F's etc: .48 SRs, adders, etc: 1.50 16Kx1 SRAM: $113.74 mike From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Aug 22 11:51:32 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2010 12:51:32 -0400 Subject: Terminals... In-Reply-To: <SNT129-W60E0F630322E5ABA8C182A3810@phx.gbl> References: <alpine.LFD.2.00.1008201708310.19842@grumble.deltasoft.com>, <E1Omqqu-0005pm-8S@shell.xmission.com>, <AANLkTim=zZE5XsF0TbqMYxJ0x+8sLgB8uoD4PpATX6dh@mail.gmail.com> <SNT129-W60E0F630322E5ABA8C182A3810@phx.gbl> Message-ID: <4C715594.7020504@neurotica.com> On 8/22/10 9:52 AM, dwight elvey wrote: > There was a RACAL that I liked a lot as well ( can't recall the name > but I do recall almost being killed by one that I was tuning the > IF strip ). Mmm, just mentioning RACAL reminds me of (what was) my RA6790/GM. Sadly I had to sell it to pay the mortgage a couple of years ago, plus I felt kinda guilty having such a great receiver but not having much time to use it. Its CPU is a Mostek F8 as I recall, at least on the earlier ones (and mine). -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sun Aug 22 12:04:11 2010 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2010 10:04:11 -0700 Subject: OT: old high-end receivers / was Re: Terminals... In-Reply-To: <SNT129-W60E0F630322E5ABA8C182A3810@phx.gbl> References: <alpine.LFD.2.00.1008201708310.19842@grumble.deltasoft.com>, <E1Omqqu-0005pm-8S@shell.xmission.com>, <AANLkTim=zZE5XsF0TbqMYxJ0x+8sLgB8uoD4PpATX6dh@mail.gmail.com> <SNT129-W60E0F630322E5ABA8C182A3810@phx.gbl> Message-ID: <e03ef4e464b367aefebc218ee9b058b0@cs.ubc.ca> On 2010 Aug 22, at 6:52 AM, dwight elvey wrote: > There was a RACAL that I liked a lot as well ( can't recall the name > but I do recall almost being killed by one that I was tuning the > IF strip ). The RACAL RA-117 perhaps? Implements the Wadley Loop tuning system. High-end contemporary of, and competitor to, the R-390, in attempting precision tuning before practical implementations of the PLL. I've been rebuilding a couple of them of late: http://www.cs.ubc.ca/~hilpert/e/radio/RacalRA117/ From mmaginnis at gmail.com Sun Aug 22 12:40:15 2010 From: mmaginnis at gmail.com (Mike Maginnis) Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2010 11:40:15 -0600 Subject: Troubleshooting a 5V Apple III Message-ID: <4C7160FF.4060009@gmail.com> I have a 5V Apple III that won't boot and could use some troubleshooting advice. When I power it up, the LED at CR7 on the motherboard and the keyboard lamp both light up and I get a brief flash on the internal floppy light and nothing else. No video or activity of any kind. When I hit CTRL-RESET, I do get the expected clicks from the internal speaker, so I know there's some life there. I've swapped out the floppy drive and cables, and the power supply with known good units, and reseated all the socketed ICs and get the same results. There are no expansion cards or other peripherals attached to the machine. Can anyone suggest a starting point for tracking this down? Thanks. - Mike From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sun Aug 22 13:12:20 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2010 11:12:20 -0700 Subject: OT: old high-end receivers / was Re: Terminals... In-Reply-To: <e03ef4e464b367aefebc218ee9b058b0@cs.ubc.ca> References: <alpine.LFD.2.00.1008201708310.19842@grumble.deltasoft.com>, , <E1Omqqu-0005pm-8S@shell.xmission.com>, , <AANLkTim=zZE5XsF0TbqMYxJ0x+8sLgB8uoD4PpATX6dh@mail.gmail.com>, <SNT129-W60E0F630322E5ABA8C182A3810@phx.gbl>, <e03ef4e464b367aefebc218ee9b058b0@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <SNT129-W43C50CD61797F280E1E746A3810@phx.gbl> > From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca > > On 2010 Aug 22, at 6:52 AM, dwight elvey wrote: > > > There was a RACAL that I liked a lot as well ( can't recall the name > > but I do recall almost being killed by one that I was tuning the > > IF strip ). > > The RACAL RA-117 perhaps? Implements the Wadley Loop tuning system. > High-end contemporary of, and competitor to, the R-390, in attempting > precision tuning before practical implementations of the PLL. > > I've been rebuilding a couple of them of late: > http://www.cs.ubc.ca/~hilpert/e/radio/RacalRA117/ > Yep, that's the one. When tuning the 115MHz IF ( forget the exact freq ), you can't use an insulated tuning wound without breaking it. So one resorts to a metal one. This is fine until one reaches the last one connected to the plate. Then if your stupid enough to have your elbow on the chasis and hand guiding the screwdriver into the hole, you get zapped. The only excuse I have is that it was the middle of the night. Dwight From legalize at xmission.com Sun Aug 22 13:15:55 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2010 12:15:55 -0600 Subject: Terminals... In-Reply-To: Your message of Sat, 21 Aug 2010 20:53:58 -0400. <AANLkTimpGkrUJXQnzrK8U1SjtjQyvpcadRjO2D2q8Mvp@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <E1OnF5H-0006Aa-Fh@shell.xmission.com> In article <AANLkTimpGkrUJXQnzrK8U1SjtjQyvpcadRjO2D2q8Mvp at mail.gmail.com>, William Donzelli <wdonzelli at gmail.com> writes: > > They don't seem interested in cultivating a relationship however, > > The best things you can do to cultivate a *positive* relationship are: > > 1) do not act superior > 2) bring him business I try, but they don't make it easy. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com/the-direct3d-graphics-pipeline/> Legalize Adulthood! <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com> From legalize at xmission.com Sun Aug 22 13:19:41 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2010 12:19:41 -0600 Subject: Troubleshooting a 5V Apple III In-Reply-To: Your message of Sun, 22 Aug 2010 11:40:15 -0600. <4C7160FF.4060009@gmail.com> Message-ID: <E1OnF8v-000744-EA@shell.xmission.com> In article <4C7160FF.4060009 at gmail.com>, Mike Maginnis <mmaginnis at gmail.com> writes: > Can anyone suggest a starting point for tracking this down? I'm not familiar with the Apple III schematics. Does the motherboard include video? If so, then it sounds like everything's good but you have a bad video section. I'd start looking at capacitors and if you have a high bandwidth scope it might be instructive to look at the video out to see if you're getting any sort of video timing at all (sync signals, etc.). -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com/the-direct3d-graphics-pipeline/> Legalize Adulthood! <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com> From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Aug 22 12:46:37 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2010 18:46:37 +0100 (BST) Subject: 1970s TTL specs and prices In-Reply-To: <4C704121.1060707@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Aug 21, 10 05:12:01 pm Message-ID: <m1OnEd1-000J3uC@p850ug1> > > On 8/21/10 4:23 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > >> I'm with Tony on keeping old data books. In our shop we service > > > > While it's great being able to get data sheets on the web, I do find the > > paper data books much easier to use at the workbench. > > I feel the same way. This is precisely why I have a very fast laser > printer in my office, a model that has a very short warm-up time. =) A bookcase (of data books) requires less maintenance and is easier to repair when it does fail :-) -tony From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Aug 22 13:28:49 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2010 14:28:49 -0400 Subject: 1970s TTL specs and prices In-Reply-To: <m1OnEd1-000J3uC@p850ug1> References: <m1OnEd1-000J3uC@p850ug1> Message-ID: <4C716C61.3090900@neurotica.com> On 8/22/10 1:46 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >>>> I'm with Tony on keeping old data books. In our shop we service >>> >>> While it's great being able to get data sheets on the web, I do find the >>> paper data books much easier to use at the workbench. >> >> I feel the same way. This is precisely why I have a very fast laser >> printer in my office, a model that has a very short warm-up time. =) > > A bookcase (of data books) requires less maintenance and is easier to > repair when it does fail :-) True, but I generally don't have problems. I expect *I* will fail before this printer does. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From dm561 at torfree.net Sun Aug 22 13:52:15 2010 From: dm561 at torfree.net (MikeS) Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2010 14:52:15 -0400 Subject: Racal (was: Terminals...) References: <mailman.3.1282496404.94581.cctalk@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <5B7C5FEF8DFF49E09FAEBCD216F5BD41@vl420mt> ---------------Original Message: Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2010 12:51:32 -0400 From: Dave McGuire <mcguire at neurotica.com> Subject: Re: Terminals... On 8/22/10 9:52 AM, dwight elvey wrote: > There was a RACAL that I liked a lot as well ( can't recall the name > but I do recall almost being killed by one that I was tuning the > IF strip ). Mmm, just mentioning RACAL reminds me of (what was) my RA6790/GM. Sadly I had to sell it to pay the mortgage a couple of years ago, plus I felt kinda guilty having such a great receiver but not having much time to use it. Its CPU is a Mostek F8 as I recall, at least on the earlier ones (and mine). -Dave --------------- Speaking of Racal, I still have a Technical Manual for a model 9521 'Computing Counter'; is there a group/forum/site out there somewhere that would be interested (if it isn't already out there)? mike From mmaginnis at gmail.com Sun Aug 22 14:05:54 2010 From: mmaginnis at gmail.com (Mike Maginnis) Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2010 13:05:54 -0600 Subject: Troubleshooting a 5V Apple III In-Reply-To: <E1OnF8v-000744-EA@shell.xmission.com> References: <E1OnF8v-000744-EA@shell.xmission.com> Message-ID: <4C717512.6060404@gmail.com> On 8/22/2010 12:19 PM, Richard wrote: > In article<4C7160FF.4060009 at gmail.com>, > Mike Maginnis<mmaginnis at gmail.com> writes: > >> Can anyone suggest a starting point for tracking this down? > > I'm not familiar with the Apple III schematics. Does the motherboard > include video? > > If so, then it sounds like everything's good but you have a bad video > section. I'd start looking at capacitors and if you have a high > bandwidth scope it might be instructive to look at the video out to > see if you're getting any sort of video timing at all (sync signals, > etc.). The motherboard has both composite and digital XRGB video outputs. I've been working with a composite monitor, as I don't have a compatible RGB model. Unfortunately, I don't have a scope or anything more advanced than a multimeter to troubleshoot with. - Mike From legalize at xmission.com Sun Aug 22 14:10:36 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2010 13:10:36 -0600 Subject: Troubleshooting a 5V Apple III In-Reply-To: Your message of Sun, 22 Aug 2010 13:05:54 -0600. <4C717512.6060404@gmail.com> Message-ID: <E1OnFwC-00038U-J0@shell.xmission.com> In article <4C717512.6060404 at gmail.com>, Mike Maginnis <mmaginnis at gmail.com> writes: > The motherboard has both composite and digital XRGB video outputs. I've > been working with a composite monitor, as I don't have a compatible RGB > model. Unfortunately, I don't have a scope or anything more advanced > than a multimeter to troubleshoot with. You should be able to check the capacitors in the video section for shorts. I'm not sure if you can diagnose other failures on capacitors (the most likely culprit) with only a multimeter. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com/the-direct3d-graphics-pipeline/> Legalize Adulthood! <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com> From fjkraan at xs4all.nl Sun Aug 22 14:13:48 2010 From: fjkraan at xs4all.nl (F.J. Kraan) Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2010 21:13:48 +0200 Subject: Image of Digital van Message-ID: <4C7176EC.3020803@xs4all.nl> Hi, Does anyone have an image of an Digital Equipment Corporation van? A friend and DEC fan wants his new white van to look as much as possible as original DEC vans. There seems to be an image of a large number of vans parked for a corporate building in some DEC brochure. Fred Jan From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Sun Aug 22 14:08:02 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2010 16:08:02 -0300 Subject: 1970s TTL specs and prices References: <m1OnEd1-000J3uC@p850ug1> <4C716C61.3090900@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <287e01cb422f$a5c41ba0$0600000a@portajara> > True, but I generally don't have problems. I expect *I* will fail > before this printer does. My HP4+ has some 12 years and 500.000+ printed pages. I believe my sons will keep using it :) From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Aug 22 14:32:51 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2010 20:32:51 +0100 (BST) Subject: Troubleshooting a 5V Apple III In-Reply-To: <4C717512.6060404@gmail.com> from "Mike Maginnis" at Aug 22, 10 01:05:54 pm Message-ID: <m1OnGHm-000J3uC@p850ug1> > > The motherboard has both composite and digital XRGB video outputs. I've > been working with a composite monitor, as I don't have a compatible RGB > model. Unfortunately, I don't have a scope or anything more advanced > than a multimeter to troubleshoot with. I don't know the Apple /// at all, so I can only give very geenral tips.. The first thing I woudl is check all the supply rails at the mainboard with your voltmeter. I know you say you've swapped out the PSU, but excessivel load on on rail could be pulling it down. And do you know that the replacement PSU is good? Is there any way you can get a cheap logic probe? A 'scope or logic analyser would be great, but you can do a suprising amount with just a logic probe and it's a lot cheaper. If you can get a logic probe, I owuld look at the sync signal(s) on the RGB socket. At least see if there are there (which would indicate the video timing circuitry was doing something). And then see if there is any activity on the CPU addres and data pins, the address and data pins of the ROMs and RAMs, etc. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Aug 22 14:38:53 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2010 20:38:53 +0100 (BST) Subject: Troubleshooting a 5V Apple III In-Reply-To: <E1OnFwC-00038U-J0@shell.xmission.com> from "Richard" at Aug 22, 10 01:10:36 pm Message-ID: <m1OnGNb-000J3uC@p850ug1> > You should be able to check the capacitors in the video section for > shorts. I'm not sure if you can diagnose other failures on capacitors > (the most likely culprit) with only a multimeter. That depends on the multimeter. Some have capacitance ranges. I wouldn't be suprised if somebody had made a comined multimeter and ESR meter either... But I do question the statement that capacitors are likely to be the problem. I power analuge circuitry (PSUs, CRT monitors, etc) I would agree that electrolytics cna dry up, or short, or.. But in digital circutiry, the only capacitors you are liekly to find are low value ceramic ones (e.g. as a load for a crystal) which are very reliable, and sppply decoupling capacitors. If the latter fail open, then provided only 1 or 2 have gone you won't notice it, and if they fail short than either the cupply rail is pulled right down (easy to spot, although finding which capacitor has shorted is nore 'fun'), or the capacitor gives itself away with smoke signals (tantalum bead capacitors are good at this :-)). -tony From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sun Aug 22 15:10:38 2010 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2010 13:10:38 -0700 Subject: Troubleshooting a 5V Apple III In-Reply-To: <4C717512.6060404@gmail.com> References: <E1OnF8v-000744-EA@shell.xmission.com> <4C717512.6060404@gmail.com> Message-ID: <75127d08c40105edd7a0b1eb779b45e2@cs.ubc.ca> On 2010 Aug 22, at 12:05 PM, Mike Maginnis wrote: > On 8/22/2010 12:19 PM, Richard wrote: >> In article<4C7160FF.4060009 at gmail.com>, >> Mike Maginnis<mmaginnis at gmail.com> writes: >> >>> Can anyone suggest a starting point for tracking this down? >> >> I'm not familiar with the Apple III schematics. Does the motherboard >> include video? >> >> If so, then it sounds like everything's good but you have a bad video >> section. I'd start looking at capacitors and if you have a high >> bandwidth scope it might be instructive to look at the video out to >> see if you're getting any sort of video timing at all (sync signals, >> etc.). > > The motherboard has both composite and digital XRGB video outputs. > I've been working with a composite monitor, as I don't have a > compatible RGB model. Unfortunately, I don't have a scope or anything > more advanced than a multimeter to troubleshoot with. I've deleted the original message already and I don't remember exactly what you said you had done, but how about typing blind something like a 'beep'/sound command or disk-loading command to see if it evokes the expected behaviour. Might be able to confirm whether the system is running and it is a video problem. I don't know the Apple commands well enough to suggest the specific command. From doc at vaxen.net Sun Aug 22 15:37:29 2010 From: doc at vaxen.net (Doc) Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2010 15:37:29 -0500 Subject: RS/6000 7013-520, Was Re: cctalk Digest, Vol 84, Issue 41 In-Reply-To: <133BC9BAEEC3422E95C51328F8C9DB68@vl420mt> References: <mailman.63.1282437921.1006.cctalk@classiccmp.org> <133BC9BAEEC3422E95C51328F8C9DB68@vl420mt> Message-ID: <4C718A89.9020101@vaxen.net> MikeS wrote: > Message: 13 > Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2010 12:49:19 -0700 (PDT) > From: Fred Cisin <cisin at xenosoft.com> > Subject: Re: Origin of the term minicomputer (was Re: PDP-1 as > minicomputer > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > Message-ID: <20100821124828.V87695 at shell.lmi.net> > Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII > > On Sat, 21 Aug 2010, William Donzelli wrote: >>> Pretty much, yes. I suppose the "youngest" mini architecture is the >>> RS/6000, since it originally was made of multiple gate arrays (seven >>> maybe?). > >> ISTR the RS/6000 (68000?) being called a microcomputer. But it was >> out of >> my price range. > > ----------- > Gee, I just offered a nice classic RS/6000-520 that you coulda had for free > ;-) > > Lots o' 40-bit memory, 32 ports, SCSI HD & tape; really hated to see it > go to the dump. (Please change the Subject: when you reply from the digest.) There's no doubt that the 520 was an historic machine, and my cat loves the rumble all the 7013-5xx systems make. However. Even when it was current, the -520 was amazingly, painfully, hemorrhoid-inducingly SLOW. Doc From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Sun Aug 22 15:57:07 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2010 17:57:07 -0300 Subject: Troubleshooting a 5V Apple III References: <E1OnFwC-00038U-J0@shell.xmission.com> Message-ID: <292501cb423d$27c45e50$0600000a@portajara> > You should be able to check the capacitors in the video section for > shorts. I'm not sure if you can diagnose other failures on capacitors > (the most likely culprit) with only a multimeter. A common way to repair an Apple III on its days was to raise it some 1" and let it bang on the table. It usually works =) From legalize at xmission.com Sun Aug 22 16:11:00 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2010 15:11:00 -0600 Subject: Troubleshooting a 5V Apple III In-Reply-To: Your message of Sun, 22 Aug 2010 17:57:07 -0300. <292501cb423d$27c45e50$0600000a@portajara> Message-ID: <E1OnHoi-0007MT-L7@shell.xmission.com> In article <292501cb423d$27c45e50$0600000a at portajara>, "Alexandre Souza - Listas" <pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com> writes: > > You should be able to check the capacitors in the video section for > > shorts. I'm not sure if you can diagnose other failures on capacitors > > (the most likely culprit) with only a multimeter. > > A common way to repair an Apple III on its days was to raise it some 1" > and let it bang on the table. It usually works =) That would reseat chips, but the original poster mentioned that he'd already reseated all the chips. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com/the-direct3d-graphics-pipeline/> Legalize Adulthood! <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com> From cclist at sydex.com Sun Aug 22 16:53:53 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2010 14:53:53 -0700 Subject: Terminals... In-Reply-To: <SNT129-W574915E8FD4EE37C499CA0A3810@phx.gbl> References: <E1Omqqu-0005pm-8S@shell.xmission.com>, <AANLkTikZ0=12q5GAPnEXMkaGi3Ud4ZrqGp=p8T4vR=TM@mail.gmail.com>, <SNT129-W574915E8FD4EE37C499CA0A3810@phx.gbl> Message-ID: <4C713A01.8510.13CCCB5@cclist.sydex.com> Will wrote: > So...now you know why the scrap industry generally does not like us. > > Scrappers are not stupid, but they can certainly be spiteful. This morning's "Peanuts" comic strip brought to light the difference in mindset between collectors and those not so inclined: http://comics.com/peanuts/2010-08-22/ --Chuck (Well, *I* thought it was funny!) From geneb at deltasoft.com Sun Aug 22 18:37:57 2010 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2010 16:37:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Image of Digital van In-Reply-To: <4C7176EC.3020803@xs4all.nl> References: <4C7176EC.3020803@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.00.1008221637340.16192@grumble.deltasoft.com> On Sun, 22 Aug 2010, F.J. Kraan wrote: > Hi, > > Does anyone have an image of an Digital Equipment Corporation van? A friend > and DEC fan wants his new white van to look as much as possible as original > DEC vans. There seems to be an image of a large number of vans parked for a > corporate building in some DEC brochure. > There's a small black & white photo of it in the 10th Anniversary issue of Creative Computing. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From ploopster at gmail.com Sun Aug 22 18:47:55 2010 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2010 19:47:55 -0400 Subject: Terminals... In-Reply-To: <SNT129-W574915E8FD4EE37C499CA0A3810@phx.gbl> References: <E1Omqqu-0005pm-8S@shell.xmission.com>, <alpine.LFD.2.00.1008211209430.21793@grumble.deltasoft.com>, <AANLkTikZ0=12q5GAPnEXMkaGi3Ud4ZrqGp=p8T4vR=TM@mail.gmail.com> <SNT129-W574915E8FD4EE37C499CA0A3810@phx.gbl> Message-ID: <4C71B72B.9090300@gmail.com> dwight elvey wrote: > He had a bunch of Standard Bus boards that he asked if I wanted Pet peeve: STD != Standard Peace... Sridhar From mmaginnis at gmail.com Sun Aug 22 21:30:28 2010 From: mmaginnis at gmail.com (Mike Maginnis) Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2010 20:30:28 -0600 Subject: Troubleshooting a 5V Apple III In-Reply-To: <m1OnGHm-000J3uC@p850ug1> References: <4C717512.6060404@gmail.com> <m1OnGHm-000J3uC@p850ug1> Message-ID: <AANLkTi=SwAziYe6MjFhuiObz7W3Rz5FvshO1DQ6CqvBR@mail.gmail.com> On Sun, Aug 22, 2010 at 1:32 PM, Tony Duell <ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk> wrote: >> >> The motherboard has both composite and digital XRGB video outputs. ?I've >> been working with a composite monitor, as I don't have a compatible RGB >> model. ?Unfortunately, I don't have a scope or anything more advanced >> than a multimeter to troubleshoot with. > > I don't know the Apple /// at all, so I can only give very geenral tips.. > > The first thing I woudl is check all the supply rails at the mainboard > with your voltmeter. I know you say you've swapped out the PSU, but > excessivel load on on rail could be pulling it down. And do you know that > the replacement PSU is good? > > Is there any way you can get a cheap logic probe? A 'scope or logic > analyser would be great, but you can do a suprising amount with just a > logic probe and it's a lot cheaper. > > If you can get a logic probe, I owuld look at the sync signal(s) on the > RGB socket. At least see if there are there (which would indicate the > video timing circuitry was doing something). And then see if there is any > activity on the CPU addres and data pins, the address and data pins of > the ROMs and RAMs, etc. > > -tony > The PSU was borrowed from another, working 5V Apple III, so I'm confident it's good. Thanks for the suggestions. I'll pick up a logic probe and report my findings. - Mike From mmaginnis at gmail.com Sun Aug 22 21:32:03 2010 From: mmaginnis at gmail.com (Mike Maginnis) Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2010 20:32:03 -0600 Subject: Troubleshooting a 5V Apple III In-Reply-To: <m1OnGNb-000J3uC@p850ug1> References: <E1OnFwC-00038U-J0@shell.xmission.com> <m1OnGNb-000J3uC@p850ug1> Message-ID: <AANLkTi=g3_7rXSWd+9=OTDxkNr16O22i+Bsms15Jy1dW@mail.gmail.com> On Sun, Aug 22, 2010 at 1:38 PM, Tony Duell <ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk> wrote: >> You should be able to check the capacitors in the video section for >> shorts. ?I'm not sure if you can diagnose other failures on capacitors >> (the most likely culprit) with only a multimeter. > > That depends on the multimeter. Some have capacitance ranges. I wouldn't > be suprised if somebody had made a comined multimeter and ESR meter either... > > But I do question the statement that capacitors are likely to be the > problem. I power analuge circuitry (PSUs, CRT monitors, etc) I would > agree that electrolytics cna dry up, or short, or.. But in digital > circutiry, the only capacitors you are liekly to find are low value > ceramic ones (e.g. as a load for a crystal) which are very reliable, and > sppply decoupling capacitors. If the latter fail open, then provided only > 1 or 2 have gone you won't notice it, and if they fail short than either > the cupply rail is pulled right down (easy to spot, although finding > which capacitor has shorted is nore 'fun'), or the capacitor gives itself > away with smoke signals (tantalum bead capacitors are good at this :-)). > > -tony > I don't know if this makes a difference, but the caps on the known good PSU were recently replaced as part of a refurbishment effort of another 5V Apple III. - Mike From snhirsch at gmail.com Sat Aug 21 09:13:40 2010 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2010 10:13:40 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Collection reduction time, advice please In-Reply-To: <AANLkTik=32P_5z+0RJgQgd+B3i1txpZMoEXZYUipFgxp@mail.gmail.com> References: <AANLkTik=32P_5z+0RJgQgd+B3i1txpZMoEXZYUipFgxp@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008211013040.3268@duo> On Fri, 20 Aug 2010, Adrian Graham wrote: > I'm guessing nobody will be interested in my SUN and Cisco kit, or > Research Machines early PCs. I assume from your use of the colloquialism "kit" that you are a UK resident? -- From pinball at telus.net Sun Aug 22 14:21:49 2010 From: pinball at telus.net (John Robertson) Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2010 12:21:49 -0700 Subject: 1970s TTL specs and prices In-Reply-To: <2D02B8EB701949E3832F4AD50BBAAB4E@vl420mt> References: <mailman.63.1282437921.1006.cctalk@classiccmp.org> <2D02B8EB701949E3832F4AD50BBAAB4E@vl420mt> Message-ID: <4C7178CD.4090505@telus.net> MikeS wrote: > Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2010 11:24:47 -0700 > From: Brent Hilpert <hilpert at cs.ubc.ca> > Subject: Re: 1970s TTL specs and prices > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > Message-ID: <17dbd76df89836d82320a900dd3576a1 at cs.ubc.ca> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed > > On 2010 Aug 20, at 11:23 AM, Tom Gardner wrote: > >> For some Computer History Museum work I need information on 7400 >> series Flip >> Flops (S and Normal, DIPs) circa 1973 (anything 1970-75). Anyone >> have any >> maximum clock speed and OEM volume pricing information on parts such >> as 7473 >> thru 79 or 74106-116? >> >> I must be getting old because I remember the 7474 well but I thru out my >> Yellow books years ago :-) > > Well, just to add to the list, I have the 1969, 1973 and 1981 TTL > databooks from TI, as well as a 1965 TI component catalog listing some > TTL devices (also various from Fairchild, National and Moto). > > As with others though, I haven't managed to dig up any prices. > ... > ---------------- > FWIW, approx. Canadian 100-1000 prices in 1977: > Gates: .28 > F-F's etc: .48 > SRs, adders, etc: 1.50 > > 16Kx1 SRAM: $113.74 > > mike > I do have an Electrosonic catalog (Canada) from the mid 1960s. It is very handy as it covers things like CDS cells, Germanium items (ratings, etc) and other odds and ends of industrial electronics where there are no other sources of information. John :-#)# From chrise at pobox.com Sun Aug 22 15:49:07 2010 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2010 15:49:07 -0500 Subject: SDK-85 ROM Image? In-Reply-To: <1282456548.1960.10.camel@fubar> References: <1282443984.1960.9.camel@fubar> <1282456548.1960.10.camel@fubar> Message-ID: <20100822204907.GK7816@n0jcf.net> On Sunday (08/22/2010 at 03:25PM +0930), Alexis wrote: > On Sun, 2010-08-22 at 11:56 +0930, Alexis wrote: > > Hi, > > > > I have an Intel SDK-85 System Design Kit here (single board computer) > > which doesn't want to turn on. After some debugging, I'm fairly > > confident it's the ROM that's dead, but I can't find an image for it on > > the Internet. > > > > If someone has a copy of the ROM image, or is willing to dump it, I > > would greatly appreciate it. > > > > Thanks, > > > > Alexis. > > I found one in here, http://www.freevbcode.com/source/0509/sdk_85.zip Glad you found one. I just went through the same exercise (fixing an SDK-85) a couple months ago and several folks on this list offered images which I have available. Chris -- Chris Elmquist From csquared3 at tx.rr.com Sun Aug 22 23:06:57 2010 From: csquared3 at tx.rr.com (Charlie Carothers) Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2010 23:06:57 -0500 Subject: Origin of the term minicomputer (was Re: PDP-1 as minicomputer In-Reply-To: <m1Omunc-000J3yC@p850ug1> References: <m1Omunc-000J3yC@p850ug1> Message-ID: <4C71F3E1.1020900@tx.rr.com> Tony Duell wrote: >> Heh! After looking at hp9830.com for just a bit, I think I see your >> problem. There are some really interesting turns of phrase on that page > > The HP9830 was marketted as a 'calculator', but IMHO it was full-blwon > computer. It has a QWERTY keybaord, an alphanumeric display (albeit one > line of 32 characters, which is a 'window' onto a 96 character logical > line IIRC), and programs in BASIC. > > I find it to be an interesting machine. It's certainly a candidate for > the title 'first personal computer' in that it is an all-in-one desktop > machine with ROM BASIC. Put it on a desk, plug it into the mains, turn it > on and start typing BASIC. Pretty amazing for 1973. > > As I mentioned earlier, the processor is mostly simple logic chips with a > few ROMs (micorocede and ALU tables). The rest of the machins is also > mostly stnadard chips, the only custom parts are ROMs -- those are very > custom, not just in the programming, but also the decices themeselves > which are HP 512 byte parts (IIRC the chip is 2 256 byte halves, which > can be donded out as either a 512*8 or a 256*16 device -- the 256*16 > state machine ROM in, e.g. the 59309 digital clock is one of those). > Anyway, the ROMs are sufficiently odd that replacing them with more > modern parts is non-trivial. The RAMs are standard -- Intel 1103s -- but > now very hard to find. But the machine is otherwise very repairable. > > Of course being HP of that period it's very well made and pleasant to > work on. > > Bit serial machines are not common anyway, which makes this one > moderately interesting... > > >> using forms of the words "calculate" and "compute" in the same sentence. >> Gotta go read that site in more detail when I have a chance. You'd >> mentioned it enough times I just had to google and see what it was. >> Looks like a quite fascinating machine! I'd love to try lunar lander on >> one. > > I don't rememebr a lunar lander for it (there's a very famous one for the > DEC GT40 terminal...), but anyway. > The only reason I think there is one is that the web site page at http://hp9830.com/hp9830-lander.html is supposed to be a listing of the program. I know you don't do a lot of web stuff, so if it would be of any interest to you I think I could copy and paste it into a plain .txt file and email that to you as an (off list) email attachment. Just let me know if you would like me to do that. From some of the text at the top of the page, I think it may need an attached plotter of some sort. Later, Charlie C. -- obfuscatecsquared3 at tx dot rr dot com dot invalid To email me, eradicate obfuscate and remove dot invalid. > There is some information on the 9830 on http://www.hpmuseum.org/ and > rather more (including downloadable user and service manuals, scheamtics, > etc) on http://www.hpmuseum.net/ > > -tony > From dm561 at torfree.net Mon Aug 23 02:10:55 2010 From: dm561 at torfree.net (MikeS) Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2010 03:10:55 -0400 Subject: 1970s TTL specs and prices References: <mailman.66.1282544082.1006.cctalk@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <92F57207CB784CCD800996826CB3C90D@vl420mt> --------------Original Message: Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2010 12:21:49 -0700 From: John Robertson <pinball at telus.net> Subject: Re: 1970s TTL specs and prices MikeS wrote: <snippage> > ---------------- > FWIW, approx. Canadian 100-1000 prices in 1977: > Gates: .28 > F-F's etc: .48 > SRs, adders, etc: 1.50 > > 16Kx1 SRAM: $113.74 > > mike > I do have an Electrosonic catalog (Canada) from the mid 1960s. It is very handy as it covers things like CDS cells, Germanium items (ratings, etc) and other odds and ends of industrial electronics where there are no other sources of information. John :-#)# ----------------------------------- Umm, that's where I got the prices; as a matter of fact I used to work for Electrosonic in the 60s in industrial sales, still around after all these years... mike From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Mon Aug 23 02:49:31 2010 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2010 09:49:31 +0200 Subject: PDP-1 movies In-Reply-To: <4C69C2CF.50503@tx.rr.com> References: <4C69C2CF.50503@tx.rr.com> Message-ID: <20100823094931.6be908ef.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Mon, 16 Aug 2010 17:59:27 -0500 Charlie Carothers <csquared3 at tx.rr.com> wrote: > I was just wondering if anyone else is able to view the 3 movies near > the bottom of [...] Works for me on my side of the Big Pond. NB: http://netvideohunter.com/ This Firefox plugin lets you download Flash videos. You can watch them later with e.g. mplayer. -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From williams.dan at gmail.com Mon Aug 23 12:21:59 2010 From: williams.dan at gmail.com (Dan Williams) Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2010 19:21:59 +0200 Subject: Terminals... In-Reply-To: <4C713A01.8510.13CCCB5@cclist.sydex.com> References: <E1Omqqu-0005pm-8S@shell.xmission.com> <AANLkTikZ0=12q5GAPnEXMkaGi3Ud4ZrqGp=p8T4vR=TM@mail.gmail.com> <SNT129-W574915E8FD4EE37C499CA0A3810@phx.gbl> <4C713A01.8510.13CCCB5@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <5320307334873690063@unknownmsgid> One man's trash.... On a side note a friend helped me carry an Alphaserver 4100 up three flights of stairs last week, his comment was "Did you know they make computers you can put on your lap these days I'll find out what they are called for you" Dan On 22 Aug 2010, at 23:53, Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> wrote: > Will wrote: > >> So...now you know why the scrap industry generally does not like us. >> >> Scrappers are not stupid, but they can certainly be spiteful. > > This morning's "Peanuts" comic strip brought to light the difference > in mindset between collectors and those not so inclined: > > http://comics.com/peanuts/2010-08-22/ > > --Chuck > (Well, *I* thought it was funny!) From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 23 13:01:45 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2010 19:01:45 +0100 (BST) Subject: Troubleshooting a 5V Apple III In-Reply-To: <AANLkTi=SwAziYe6MjFhuiObz7W3Rz5FvshO1DQ6CqvBR@mail.gmail.com> from "Mike Maginnis" at Aug 22, 10 08:30:28 pm Message-ID: <m1OnbLE-000J3uC@p850ug1> > The PSU was borrowed from another, working 5V Apple III, so I'm > confident it's good. OK, so the replacement PSU was good when it was installed. However, this does not mean there's not a fault on the mainboard that's pulling one of the rails out of tolerance. Given that you have a voltmeter, I can't see any reason not to check those supply rails on the mainboard. I find it curious... All the books I have on electrronic troubleshooting and repair emphasisis that the only wat to put something right is to make measurements and think about them before you change anything. And yet it appears that these days you replace parts in an attempt to fix the problem without knowing if said parts have anything to do with the fault. You knwo, if I ever meet the guy who decided that board-swappign was a good method of diagnosis and repair, along with the guy who decided that soldering (or even surface-mount soldering) was impossible in the field, I am... well lets just say it has something to do with an induction coil and his reproductive organs ;-) > > Thanks for the suggestions. I'll pick up a logic probe and report my findi= > ngs. Is the Apple III schematic on-line anyewhere? I might be tempted to take a look and suggest other thigns to measure/check. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 23 13:10:42 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2010 19:10:42 +0100 (BST) Subject: Origin of the term minicomputer (was Re: PDP-1 as minicomputer In-Reply-To: <4C71F3E1.1020900@tx.rr.com> from "Charlie Carothers" at Aug 22, 10 11:06:57 pm Message-ID: <m1OnbTv-000J3yC@p850ug1> > >> Looks like a quite fascinating machine! I'd love to try lunar lander on > >> one. > > > > I don't rememebr a lunar lander for it (there's a very famous one for the > > DEC GT40 terminal...), but anyway. > > > The only reason I think there is one is that the web site page at Oh, there quite probably was. The HP9830 is not a 'natural' for this sort of thing because there was no graphical output as standard. I suppose you could link up an HP1350 graphics translator (HPIB was available for the 9830 -- in fact I think it was the first desktop machine to have that interface), but it wasn't a commonly-done thing. On the otehr hand there were lunar lander games for many of the HP handheld calcualtors with 1-line numeric displays. Something like that could certainly run on a 9830. > http://hp9830.com/hp9830-lander.html is supposed to be a listing of the > program. I know you don't do a lot of web stuff, so if it would be of I will take a look. I assume it's in BASIC, and given that the programming manuals and the manuals for the optional ROMs are available it shouldn't be too hard to translate it to a more modern BASIC. > any interest to you I think I could copy and paste it into a plain .txt > file and email that to you as an (off list) email attachment. Just let > me know if you would like me to do that. From some of the text at the Thanks for the offer, but I'll try to look at the web site myself first ;-) > top of the page, I think it may need an attached plotter of some sort. That's entirely possible. The HP9862 plotter was commonly used with these machines, and there was a 'plotter ROM' which added various statemetns to the BASIC to control this plotter. I have the plotter ROM, I have the interface module and cable for the 9862. What I don't have is the plotter itself, nor do I have the 'personality module' that would (I am told) make my much more recent HP7225 ploter emulate a 9862. But the interface to the plotter is fairly simple, and I suspect i could make something to conenct to the HP9830 interface. Might be a fun project sometime. -tony From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Aug 23 13:26:49 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2010 14:26:49 -0400 Subject: Terminals... In-Reply-To: <5320307334873690063@unknownmsgid> References: <E1Omqqu-0005pm-8S@shell.xmission.com> <AANLkTikZ0=12q5GAPnEXMkaGi3Ud4ZrqGp=p8T4vR=TM@mail.gmail.com> <SNT129-W574915E8FD4EE37C499CA0A3810@phx.gbl> <4C713A01.8510.13CCCB5@cclist.sydex.com> <5320307334873690063@unknownmsgid> Message-ID: <4C72BD69.1080204@neurotica.com> On 8/23/10 1:21 PM, Dan Williams wrote: > On a side note a friend helped me carry an Alphaserver 4100 up three > flights of stairs last week, his comment was "Did you know they make > computers you can put on your lap these days I'll find out what they > are called for you" ...thus illustrating the uneducated public's widespread notion that, since technology tends to shrink with development, and laptops are smaller than most other types of computers, that laptops are the "new" computers, and anything other than a laptop is obsolete. I don't even know what to say at this point. Each time I see an example of incredible stupidity in our society I think "wow, it can't get any worse than that"...then someone steps up to prove me wrong. Congrats on your 4100, by the way. I ran quite a few of those at work for a long time; they're great machines when configured with higher-end processors. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mmaginnis at gmail.com Mon Aug 23 13:32:00 2010 From: mmaginnis at gmail.com (Mike Maginnis) Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2010 12:32:00 -0600 Subject: Troubleshooting a 5V Apple III In-Reply-To: <m1OnbLE-000J3uC@p850ug1> References: <AANLkTi=SwAziYe6MjFhuiObz7W3Rz5FvshO1DQ6CqvBR@mail.gmail.com> <m1OnbLE-000J3uC@p850ug1> Message-ID: <AANLkTikkFmHKrN6czmkVuHp1j9hkoWvFaao1XHKQSprj@mail.gmail.com> I suppose, as I'm the one asking for help here, that I'll take the advice given and leave the rest without comment. Thanks. - Mike On Mon, Aug 23, 2010 at 12:01 PM, Tony Duell <ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk> wrote: >> The PSU was borrowed from another, working 5V Apple III, so I'm >> confident it's good. > > OK, so the replacement PSU was good when it was installed. However, this > does not mean there's not a fault on the mainboard that's pulling one of > the rails out of tolerance. Given that you have a voltmeter, I can't see > any reason not to check those supply rails on the mainboard. > > I find it curious... All the books I have on electrronic > troubleshooting and repair emphasisis that the only wat to put something > right is to make measurements and think about them before you change > anything. And yet it appears that these days you replace parts in an > attempt to fix the problem without knowing if said parts have anything to > do with the fault. You knwo, if I ever meet the guy who decided that > board-swappign was a good method of diagnosis and repair, along with the > guy who decided that soldering (or even surface-mount soldering) was > impossible in the field, I am... well lets just say it has something to > do with an induction coil and his reproductive organs ;-) > >> >> Thanks for the suggestions. ?I'll pick up a logic probe and report my findi= >> ngs. > > Is the Apple III schematic on-line anyewhere? I might be tempted to take > a look and suggest other thigns to measure/check. > > -tony > From ball.of.john at gmail.com Mon Aug 23 14:13:01 2010 From: ball.of.john at gmail.com (John Ball) Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2010 12:13:01 -0700 Subject: VAXstation 2000 video References: <mailman.1.1282582804.11881.cctalk@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <6704C9966260464E867C5F46CE9C8D47@WINDSCAR> So I picked up both a MicroVAX 2000 with 120mb MFM drive and MMJ terminal adapter and a VAXstation 2000 with 40mb ST-251, keyboard, mouse, and some little breakout box for the latter two. Both systems power up and the drives don't make any nasty noises (though both are blank so they won't be booting anything until I get VMS on them) but in both cases I have no way to communicate with them. The MicroVAX I can't talk to simply because I lack an MMJ cable but the more interesting VAXstation with it's 4-bit framebuffer simply because I don't see how on earth you connect up a monitor to it. The keyboard and mouse break out box connect to the monitor port but the box itself has no connections for a monitor to be plugged in. How did this work and what types of monitor were compatible? I might have access to a VR201 if I want to pay shipping from MA to western canada. From IanK at vulcan.com Mon Aug 23 14:23:50 2010 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2010 12:23:50 -0700 Subject: VAXstation 2000 video In-Reply-To: <6704C9966260464E867C5F46CE9C8D47@WINDSCAR> References: <mailman.1.1282582804.11881.cctalk@classiccmp.org> <6704C9966260464E867C5F46CE9C8D47@WINDSCAR> Message-ID: <FF6AB92D97A23A409701CDBF66F03FCD03DC3E6EF4@505fuji> http://home.claranet.nl/users/pb0aia/vax/vs2khw.html -- Ian > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of John Ball > Sent: Monday, August 23, 2010 12:13 PM > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: VAXstation 2000 video > > So I picked up both a MicroVAX 2000 with 120mb MFM drive and MMJ > terminal > adapter and a VAXstation 2000 with 40mb ST-251, keyboard, mouse, and > some > little breakout box for the latter two. > Both systems power up and the drives don't make any nasty noises > (though > both are blank so they won't be booting anything until I get VMS on > them) > but in both cases I have no way to communicate with them. The MicroVAX > I > can't talk to simply because I lack an MMJ cable but the more > interesting > VAXstation with it's 4-bit framebuffer simply because I don't see how > on > earth you connect up a monitor to it. The keyboard and mouse break out > box > connect to the monitor port but the box itself has no connections for a > monitor to be plugged in. > How did this work and what types of monitor were compatible? I might > have > access to a VR201 if I want to pay shipping from MA to western canada. > From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Mon Aug 23 14:28:42 2010 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2010 12:28:42 -0700 Subject: Origin of the term minicomputer (was Re: PDP-1 as minicomputer In-Reply-To: <m1OnbTv-000J3yC@p850ug1> References: <m1OnbTv-000J3yC@p850ug1> Message-ID: <b3e3aa5173d33680a1819b1f95074e6b@cs.ubc.ca> On 2010 Aug 23, at 11:10 AM, Tony Duell wrote: >>>> Looks like a quite fascinating machine! I'd love to try lunar >>>> lander on >>>> one. >>> >>> I don't rememebr a lunar lander for it (there's a very famous one >>> for the >>> DEC GT40 terminal...), but anyway. >>> >> The only reason I think there is one is that the web site page at > > Oh, there quite probably was. The HP9830 is not a 'natural' for this > sort > of thing because there was no graphical output as standard. I suppose > you > could link up an HP1350 graphics translator (HPIB was available for the > 9830 -- in fact I think it was the first desktop machine to have that > interface), but it wasn't a commonly-done thing. The thermal line printer was a pretty standard piece of equipment with the 9830, and it was a quick printer. One could do character-based graphics with it. In 1976 my high school had a 9830, it was the first machine I programmed (still have the exercise program listings). At the same time I was soldering up boards for a friend assembling an IMSAI. I recall Lunar Lander from the day, and playing it on one or the other, but couldn't say for sure which. > On the otehr hand there were lunar lander games for many of the HP > handheld calcualtors with 1-line numeric displays. Something like that > could certainly run on a 9830. > >> http://hp9830.com/hp9830-lander.html is supposed to be a listing of >> the >> program. I know you don't do a lot of web stuff, so if it would be of > > I will take a look. I assume it's in BASIC, and given that the > programming manuals and the manuals for the optional ROMs are available > it shouldn't be too hard to translate it to a more modern BASIC. From cclist at sydex.com Mon Aug 23 14:30:39 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2010 12:30:39 -0700 Subject: Terminals... In-Reply-To: <4C72BD69.1080204@neurotica.com> References: <E1Omqqu-0005pm-8S@shell.xmission.com>, <5320307334873690063@unknownmsgid>, <4C72BD69.1080204@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4C7269EF.16787.C1F571@cclist.sydex.com> On 23 Aug 2010 at 14:26, Dave McGuire wrote: > ...thus illustrating the uneducated public's widespread notion that, > since technology tends to shrink with development, and laptops are > smaller than most other types of computers, that laptops are the "new" > computers, and anything other than a laptop is obsolete. In general, the public is still working on the "newer is better" theory. Why anyone would want to sit at home and type on a laptop keyboard is beyond me. But I've seen people ditch their desktop 2GHz P4 system for a new desktop Core Duo box in the hope that it will make their dialup connection faster. --Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 23 14:47:32 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2010 20:47:32 +0100 (BST) Subject: Troubleshooting a 5V Apple III In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikkFmHKrN6czmkVuHp1j9hkoWvFaao1XHKQSprj@mail.gmail.com> from "Mike Maginnis" at Aug 23, 10 12:32:00 pm Message-ID: <m1OnczY-000J3uC@p850ug1> > > I suppose, as I'm the one asking for help here, that I'll take the > advice given and leave the rest without comment. My comments on board-swapping were _NOT_ directed at you. Old-timers here will know it's a perpetual rant of mine :-). Quite simply I can't see how making random changes to a device until it appers to work again is in any way actually putting it right. However, I have been caught so often by making assumptions when doing a repair that I have learnt (I hope) that it is best to assume nothing and check everything. Even if you know the PSU is good, it's best to check it when powering the computer. YOu may well think you know a switch is working perfectly, this did not stop be being led on a merry dance one afternoon when the paper-out microswtich in an HP printer clicked perfectly but was in fact stuck _closed_. Do you have a scheamtic of the machine? If so, is it on-line anywhere. I'll fidn a way to take a look at it and suggest more tests... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 23 14:53:11 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2010 20:53:11 +0100 (BST) Subject: Origin of the term minicomputer (was Re: PDP-1 as minicomputer In-Reply-To: <b3e3aa5173d33680a1819b1f95074e6b@cs.ubc.ca> from "Brent Hilpert" at Aug 23, 10 12:28:42 pm Message-ID: <m1Ond51-000J3uC@p850ug1> > > On 2010 Aug 23, at 11:10 AM, Tony Duell wrote: > > >>>> Looks like a quite fascinating machine! I'd love to try lunar > >>>> lander on > >>>> one. > >>> > >>> I don't rememebr a lunar lander for it (there's a very famous one > >>> for the > >>> DEC GT40 terminal...), but anyway. > >>> > >> The only reason I think there is one is that the web site page at > > > > Oh, there quite probably was. The HP9830 is not a 'natural' for this > > sort > > of thing because there was no graphical output as standard. I suppose > > you > > could link up an HP1350 graphics translator (HPIB was available for the > > 9830 -- in fact I think it was the first desktop machine to have that > > interface), but it wasn't a commonly-done thing. > > The thermal line printer was a pretty standard piece of equipment with Indeed it was. It was the HP9866 (a -A, which is what I have was upper-case only, a -B could do lower case as well). It has a 7 bit parallel internface similar in concept to the Centronics interface but on a 19-pin Mil-spec connector (I forget the type number). There were interaces for this printer available for many HP machines (heck, it could even be used with the 68K-based HP9000/200 series some 10 years later), but the HP9830 had a built-in interface for it (possibly becasue there was no built-in printer on this machine). The interface is a few logic chips on the top of the I/O backplane, BTW. The printer will sit on top of the 9830, and looks like part of the machine. > the 9830, and it was a quick printer. One could do character-based > graphics with it. But AFAIK no version of the 9866 allowed dot graphics (in fact I think that would be impossible, as you suggest the 9866 had a fixed printhead with some 400 heater elements (5 dot for each of 80 characters) and they were not evenly spaced (to provide gaps between the characters). Incidetnally, if anyone has one of these printers, thermal fax paper works fine in them. -tony From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Aug 23 14:49:30 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2010 15:49:30 -0400 Subject: VAXstation 2000 video In-Reply-To: <6704C9966260464E867C5F46CE9C8D47@WINDSCAR> References: <mailman.1.1282582804.11881.cctalk@classiccmp.org> <6704C9966260464E867C5F46CE9C8D47@WINDSCAR> Message-ID: <AANLkTimGXu=sioW5XW979nwSeN+tF8aUAerrtMqTxGHw@mail.gmail.com> On 8/23/10, John Ball <ball.of.john at gmail.com> wrote: > So I picked up both a MicroVAX 2000 with 120mb MFM drive and MMJ terminal > adapter and a VAXstation 2000 with 40mb ST-251, keyboard, mouse, and some > little breakout box for the latter two. Those machines are identical underneath - the only difference is the installed framebuffer (or not) and a jumper (in one position for a MicroVAX 2000, the other position for a VAXstation 2000), in case you didn't already know. > Both systems power up and the drives don't make any nasty noises... Good. In case your ST-251 dies, it's just an ST-251, and the boot ROMs can format a blank one. > but in both cases I have no way to communicate with them. The MicroVAX I > can't talk to simply because I lack an MMJ cable That can be solved, I'm sure. I know a common solution back in the day was a 6-wire cable with an MMJ on one end and either an RJ45 or RJ11 on the other end, depending on which modular connector standard you were using at your site (we had Nevada Western 6-pin gear at our place). The other solution was to not use the adapter box and plug a DE9 console cable (same as a MicroVAX II, IIRC) into J3. You won't have easy access to the other two serial ports (though you could make a level shifter yourself), but it should be easy enough to make a console cable with stuff many of us on the list have lying around the house (don't know how well fixed you are for making random cables) > but the more interesting > VAXstation with it's 4-bit framebuffer simply because I don't see how on > earth you connect up a monitor to it. As Ian pointed out, J5. You'll need a specific cable to go with your framebuffer and monitor. There are a couple of options - mono vs RGB, IIRC. > The keyboard and mouse break out box > connect to the monitor port but the box itself has no connections for a > monitor to be plugged in. That's because the "break out box" as you are calling it, is a MicroVAX 2000-specific option to do voltage shifting of the mouse and keyboard serial channels as well as integrate the console connector into an "easy to access" format. The three ways I know to connect to a uV/VS2K are: 1. set the jumper for VAXstation, and plug a BC18 or BC19 monitor cable on J5 and plug in a DEC mouse, DEC keyboard and compatible tube. 2. set the jumper for MicroVAX and plug a DEC console cable (BCC08) into J3 and use some flavor of dumb terminal or terminal emulator for a console. 3. set the jumper for MicroVAX and plug an MMJ into the console port on the adapter box and proceed like #2 above. > How did this work and what types of monitor were compatible? I might have > access to a VR201 if I want to pay shipping from MA to western canada. You want something like a VR260 or VR290. The VR201 is RS-170 ("NTSC") mono video, which is almost certainly too low a bandwidth to handle the output of a workstation. The VR201 will work great with a Rainbow or a VT240 base or a DECmate, but not a VAXstation. There might well be plenty of workstation tubes out there that work just as well as a DEC one, but unless they have BNC inputs for color and sync, you might have to roll your own cable. In addition to Ian's link, you might find this document to be helpful: http://decdoc.itsx.net/pdp11nl/v2000sg1.pdf -ethan From teoz at neo.rr.com Mon Aug 23 14:51:33 2010 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2010 15:51:33 -0400 Subject: Terminals... References: <E1Omqqu-0005pm-8S@shell.xmission.com>, <5320307334873690063@unknownmsgid>, <4C72BD69.1080204@neurotica.com> <4C7269EF.16787.C1F571@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <875969194B6C4BC4832AC232779C05FE@dell8300> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chuck Guzis" <cclist at sydex.com> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> Sent: Monday, August 23, 2010 3:30 PM Subject: Re: Terminals... > In general, the public is still working on the "newer is better" > theory. Why anyone would want to sit at home and type on a laptop > keyboard is beyond me. > > > --Chuck > People get sold on the extra functionality of laptops like portability and less space. Which is funny because any desktop system can be installed under a desk and LCD monitors do not take up that much space plus some people never take their expensive laptops off the desk they use them on. The laptop craze has almost killed resale values for desktops (which I don't mind at all). From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Aug 23 14:53:06 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2010 15:53:06 -0400 Subject: speeding up computers (was Re: Terminals...) Message-ID: <AANLkTinFops3Xw_cJhoLMY7Faiz25oBFTu0mMDkFBJHf@mail.gmail.com> On 8/23/10, Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> wrote: > But I've seen people ditch their desktop 2GHz P4 system for a new > desktop Core Duo box in the hope that it will make their dialup > connection faster. If you know any such people, they can ditch it at me. ;-) Personally, when I get asked "how can I make my computer go faster?", I tell people, "type faster. It's waiting on you." Then there's the old joke: How do you accelerate a Macintosh? Toss it out the window and it'll go 9.8m/s^2. -ethan From brianlanning at gmail.com Mon Aug 23 15:19:41 2010 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2010 15:19:41 -0500 Subject: speeding up computers (was Re: Terminals...) In-Reply-To: <AANLkTinFops3Xw_cJhoLMY7Faiz25oBFTu0mMDkFBJHf@mail.gmail.com> References: <AANLkTinFops3Xw_cJhoLMY7Faiz25oBFTu0mMDkFBJHf@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <AANLkTinisr7uORmuRhmk4jxii9C=AQtJsKNXoqaZ4nfZ@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, Aug 23, 2010 at 2:53 PM, Ethan Dicks <ethan.dicks at gmail.com> wrote: > Personally, when I get asked "how can I make my computer go faster?", > I tell people, "type faster. ?It's waiting on you." The real problem is windows. They load it up with bloat so that you need a faster processor and more memory, then drop support for older versions that didn't do so much crud. The end result is that you're forced into upgrading to a slower operating system (that is, it's doing more) at the same time you're upgrading to faster hardware. Now SSDs... those really are a real performance increase. I'm nearly ready to switch to one of those. brian From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Aug 23 15:29:20 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2010 16:29:20 -0400 Subject: speeding up computers (was Re: Terminals...) In-Reply-To: <AANLkTinisr7uORmuRhmk4jxii9C=AQtJsKNXoqaZ4nfZ@mail.gmail.com> References: <AANLkTinFops3Xw_cJhoLMY7Faiz25oBFTu0mMDkFBJHf@mail.gmail.com> <AANLkTinisr7uORmuRhmk4jxii9C=AQtJsKNXoqaZ4nfZ@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4C72DA20.5010006@neurotica.com> On 8/23/10 4:19 PM, Brian Lanning wrote: >> Personally, when I get asked "how can I make my computer go faster?", >> I tell people, "type faster. It's waiting on you." > > The real problem is windows. They load it up with bloat so that you > need a faster processor and more memory, then drop support for older > versions that didn't do so much crud. The end result is that you're > forced into upgrading to a slower operating system (that is, it's > doing more) at the same time you're upgrading to faster hardware. Please allow me to point out, to people who know who they are, that I was NOT the person who posted this. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From brianlanning at gmail.com Mon Aug 23 15:51:28 2010 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2010 15:51:28 -0500 Subject: speeding up computers (was Re: Terminals...) In-Reply-To: <4C72DA20.5010006@neurotica.com> References: <AANLkTinFops3Xw_cJhoLMY7Faiz25oBFTu0mMDkFBJHf@mail.gmail.com> <AANLkTinisr7uORmuRhmk4jxii9C=AQtJsKNXoqaZ4nfZ@mail.gmail.com> <4C72DA20.5010006@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <AANLkTi=SNrkxBfO+1qOhPs51m1Ok_Jza9xXQtrPW6+Jc@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, Aug 23, 2010 at 3:29 PM, Dave McGuire <mcguire at neurotica.com> wrote: >> The real problem is windows. ?They load it up with bloat so that you >> need a faster processor and more memory, then drop support for older >> versions that didn't do so much crud. ?The end result is that you're >> forced into upgrading to a slower operating system (that is, it's >> doing more) at the same time you're upgrading to faster hardware. > > ?Please allow me to point out, to people who know who they are, that I > was NOT the person who posted this. lol I didn't mean for this to be an anti-windows rant. I think modern popular linux distros are are stricken with the same affliction. I guess some would call it progress. brian From teoz at neo.rr.com Mon Aug 23 15:51:50 2010 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2010 16:51:50 -0400 Subject: speeding up computers (was Re: Terminals...) References: <AANLkTinFops3Xw_cJhoLMY7Faiz25oBFTu0mMDkFBJHf@mail.gmail.com><AANLkTinisr7uORmuRhmk4jxii9C=AQtJsKNXoqaZ4nfZ@mail.gmail.com> <4C72DA20.5010006@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <3EF7A7B17C9347BD876C4E3AEA8FB8DE@dell8300> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave McGuire" <mcguire at neurotica.com> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> Sent: Monday, August 23, 2010 4:29 PM Subject: Re: speeding up computers (was Re: Terminals...) > On 8/23/10 4:19 PM, Brian Lanning wrote: >>> Personally, when I get asked "how can I make my computer go faster?", >>> I tell people, "type faster. It's waiting on you." >> >> The real problem is windows. They load it up with bloat so that you >> need a faster processor and more memory, then drop support for older >> versions that didn't do so much crud. The end result is that you're >> forced into upgrading to a slower operating system (that is, it's >> doing more) at the same time you're upgrading to faster hardware. > > Please allow me to point out, to people who know who they are, that I > was NOT the person who posted this. > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire > Port Charlotte, FL I guess nobody ever bothered to use older hardware with a clean install of older Windows (retail not the OEM bloated versions) and use older apps to get work done? Its not like your old apps quit working when a new version comes along. From cclist at sydex.com Mon Aug 23 15:58:30 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2010 13:58:30 -0700 Subject: speeding up computers (was Re: Terminals...) In-Reply-To: <AANLkTinisr7uORmuRhmk4jxii9C=AQtJsKNXoqaZ4nfZ@mail.gmail.com> References: <AANLkTinFops3Xw_cJhoLMY7Faiz25oBFTu0mMDkFBJHf@mail.gmail.com>, <AANLkTinisr7uORmuRhmk4jxii9C=AQtJsKNXoqaZ4nfZ@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4C727E86.22890.11263C6@cclist.sydex.com> On 23 Aug 2010 at 15:19, Brian Lanning wrote: > The real problem is windows. They load it up with bloat so that you > need a faster processor and more memory, then drop support for older > versions that didn't do so much crud. The end result is that you're > forced into upgrading to a slower operating system (that is, it's > doing more) at the same time you're upgrading to faster hardware. The real problem is windows setup. Microsoft's default is to leave your "Documents and Settings", "Program files", temp folder and swap space all on the same drive. And then, there's the ever-expanding registry. It is possible to logically partition things and elminate all of the gratuitous services, and prune down the registry, but it isn't easy, so most people don't. Sells a lot of new machines and OS software that way. --Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Aug 23 16:06:22 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2010 17:06:22 -0400 Subject: speeding up computers (was Re: Terminals...) In-Reply-To: <3EF7A7B17C9347BD876C4E3AEA8FB8DE@dell8300> References: <AANLkTinFops3Xw_cJhoLMY7Faiz25oBFTu0mMDkFBJHf@mail.gmail.com><AANLkTinisr7uORmuRhmk4jxii9C=AQtJsKNXoqaZ4nfZ@mail.gmail.com> <4C72DA20.5010006@neurotica.com> <3EF7A7B17C9347BD876C4E3AEA8FB8DE@dell8300> Message-ID: <4C72E2CE.3040801@neurotica.com> On 8/23/10 4:51 PM, Teo Zenios wrote: > I guess nobody ever bothered to use older hardware with a clean install > of older Windows (retail not the OEM bloated versions) and use older > apps to get work done? Its not like your old apps quit working when a > new version comes along. Well, for a few years now, the typical American way of thinking has been "if it's old, it's bad, and if it's not new, it's old". This mindset is the very essence of the "well-trained consumer", and it exists and pervades to the utter delight of salesmen everywhere. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From blkline at attglobal.net Mon Aug 23 16:09:57 2010 From: blkline at attglobal.net (Barry L. Kline) Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2010 17:09:57 -0400 Subject: speeding up computers (was Re: Terminals...) In-Reply-To: <AANLkTi=SNrkxBfO+1qOhPs51m1Ok_Jza9xXQtrPW6+Jc@mail.gmail.com> References: <AANLkTinFops3Xw_cJhoLMY7Faiz25oBFTu0mMDkFBJHf@mail.gmail.com> <AANLkTinisr7uORmuRhmk4jxii9C=AQtJsKNXoqaZ4nfZ@mail.gmail.com> <4C72DA20.5010006@neurotica.com> <AANLkTi=SNrkxBfO+1qOhPs51m1Ok_Jza9xXQtrPW6+Jc@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4C72E3A5.8030206@attglobal.net> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Brian Lanning wrote: > I didn't mean for this to be an anti-windows rant. I think modern > popular linux distros are are stricken with the same affliction. I > guess some would call it progress. errr, no. Linux distros are not stricken with the same affliction. While they generally are more "windows-user friendly" then they have previously been (which means more bloat to cover the expected features 'doze users are accustomed to) they can most readily be converted back to a leaner, meaner OS with little effort. I'm not going to allow you to throw that bone out there as a peace offering without some protest! Barry -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFMcuOlCFu3bIiwtTARAoEnAJ9bWDAxKWhCQXjkSH627+pxypVyywCfY7si Q/wrkQLw76b80n4YnpjQnM0= =BQx2 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From teoz at neo.rr.com Mon Aug 23 16:29:10 2010 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2010 17:29:10 -0400 Subject: speeding up computers (was Re: Terminals...) References: <AANLkTinFops3Xw_cJhoLMY7Faiz25oBFTu0mMDkFBJHf@mail.gmail.com> <AANLkTinisr7uORmuRhmk4jxii9C=AQtJsKNXoqaZ4nfZ@mail.gmail.com> <4C72DA20.5010006@neurotica.com><AANLkTi=SNrkxBfO+1qOhPs51m1Ok_Jza9xXQtrPW6+Jc@mail.gmail.com> <4C72E3A5.8030206@attglobal.net> Message-ID: <7A684DF29B6C44A5894F8BAE0F144898@dell8300> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Barry L. Kline" <blkline at attglobal.net> To: <General at blkline.com>; "Discussion at blkline.com :On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> Sent: Monday, August 23, 2010 5:09 PM Subject: Re: speeding up computers (was Re: Terminals...) > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > Brian Lanning wrote: > >> I didn't mean for this to be an anti-windows rant. I think modern >> popular linux distros are are stricken with the same affliction. I >> guess some would call it progress. > > errr, no. Linux distros are not stricken with the same affliction. > While they generally are more "windows-user friendly" then they have > previously been (which means more bloat to cover the expected features > 'doze users are accustomed to) they can most readily be converted back > to a leaner, meaner OS with little effort. I'm not going to allow you > to throw that bone out there as a peace offering without some protest! > > Barry So can Windows using programs like XPLite From binarydinosaurs at gmail.com Mon Aug 23 16:32:57 2010 From: binarydinosaurs at gmail.com (Adrian Graham) Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2010 22:32:57 +0100 Subject: Collection reduction time, advice please In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008211013040.3268@duo> References: <AANLkTik=32P_5z+0RJgQgd+B3i1txpZMoEXZYUipFgxp@mail.gmail.com> <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008211013040.3268@duo> Message-ID: <AANLkTi=ARw4GeUXNf5Ukk8n72vam4zPXn65YYL_vQJvd@mail.gmail.com> On 21 August 2010 15:13, Steven Hirsch <snhirsch at gmail.com> wrote: > On Fri, 20 Aug 2010, Adrian Graham wrote: > >> I'm guessing nobody will be interested in my SUN and Cisco kit, or >> Research Machines early PCs. > > I assume from your use of the colloquialism "kit" that you are a UK > resident? Evening all, Yes, I'm in the UK, near Cambridge and not that far from London. Tonight I audited the entire left side of the garage and gave myself a shock with how much DEC stuff there is, I'll list it separately, but as a sample: MINC-11 with RX02 3x Alpha 3000-400 (plus a motherboard) 3x MicroVAX 3100-30, 2x3100-20 DECstation 5000-240 Infoserver 150VXT Alpha 2000-300 (Jensen) Alpha AXP150 uVAX2000 Alpha 2000 4/233 DEChub90 with 3x DECrepeater 90-T16 on a DEHUX (metal wall bracket) Grey Wall - VMS 5.0 with 5.5 updates VAX 4000-200 VAX 4000-505A VAX 4000-705A (might keep that one) Thought I had more Cisco, but there's only a PIX Firewall (Director500?), old blue box that's essentially an Intel PC motherboard with an EISA ROM board containing the software. SUN-wise there's less than I thought too, a SparcStation 5, Ultra Enterprise 1, UltraEnterprise 2 and external disk box with either 8 or 10 SCA-80 bays, and somewhere there's an original keyboard and tin mousemat. Oh, a monitor too with 13W3 connection. A quick sniff on ebay (sorry) shows small demand for PETs, but demand nonetheless. My 2001s are staying ;) No need to shift the Apple kit yet I don't think, but some old monitors will probably get recycled including an Apple Studio 17 which I think has a faulty waveform generator. No display anyway. Cheers for all the messages so far! -- -- adrian/witchy Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest home? computer collection? www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Aug 23 16:49:29 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2010 14:49:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: speeding up computers (was Re: Terminals...) In-Reply-To: <AANLkTinFops3Xw_cJhoLMY7Faiz25oBFTu0mMDkFBJHf@mail.gmail.com> References: <AANLkTinFops3Xw_cJhoLMY7Faiz25oBFTu0mMDkFBJHf@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20100823143356.H67203@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 23 Aug 2010, Ethan Dicks wrote: > Then there's the old joke: > How do you accelerate a Macintosh? > Toss it out the window and it'll go 9.8m/s^2. Ah, the defenestration method: Most computers can be sped up by either tossing it out of a window, or tossing windows out of it. Microsoft is not the only company whose design policies are predicated on an assumption of Moore's law. But it is one of the most obvious. If your goal is to create simple memos, with dancing kangaroos and yodeling jellyfish on them, then Windoze is the best choice. That IS the goal of some, such as college administrators, and they do not mind spending half an hour decorating the memo that "the meeting has been cancelled", nor sending it as a multi-megabyte attached WEIRD document. Therefore, Microsoft made the design decisions to optimize for THAT. Has MICROS~1 provided a "wizard" specifically and explicitly for decorating "the meeting has been cancelled" memos with the dancing kangaroos and yodelling jellyfish? -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From doc at vaxen.net Mon Aug 23 16:55:03 2010 From: doc at vaxen.net (Doc Shipley) Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2010 16:55:03 -0500 Subject: speeding up computers (was Re: Terminals...) In-Reply-To: <20100823143356.H67203@shell.lmi.net> References: <AANLkTinFops3Xw_cJhoLMY7Faiz25oBFTu0mMDkFBJHf@mail.gmail.com> <20100823143356.H67203@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4C72EE37.3010904@vaxen.net> On 8/23/10 4:49 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Mon, 23 Aug 2010, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> Then there's the old joke: >> How do you accelerate a Macintosh? >> Toss it out the window and it'll go 9.8m/s^2. > > Ah, the defenestration method: > Most computers can be sped up by > either tossing it out of a window, > or tossing windows out of it. > > > Microsoft is not the only company whose design policies are predicated > on an assumption of Moore's law. But it is one of the most obvious. It's very odd to me that Apple's OS X needs at least as much CPU, RAM, and disk as current Windows, but nobody beats on it for being bloated. Mind you, I'm typing this at a Mac Pro, and all my systems except back-end stuff are Macs. I just think it's funny that nobody - including me - seems to mind the huge resource needs of OS X. Doc From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Aug 23 17:02:45 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2010 18:02:45 -0400 Subject: speeding up computers (was Re: Terminals...) In-Reply-To: <4C72EE37.3010904@vaxen.net> References: <AANLkTinFops3Xw_cJhoLMY7Faiz25oBFTu0mMDkFBJHf@mail.gmail.com> <20100823143356.H67203@shell.lmi.net> <4C72EE37.3010904@vaxen.net> Message-ID: <4C72F005.9060602@neurotica.com> On 8/23/10 5:55 PM, Doc Shipley wrote: >> Microsoft is not the only company whose design policies are predicated >> on an assumption of Moore's law. But it is one of the most obvious. > > It's very odd to me that Apple's OS X needs at least as much CPU, RAM, > and disk as current Windows, but nobody beats on it for being bloated. It's not slow. =) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ploopster at gmail.com Mon Aug 23 17:21:44 2010 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2010 18:21:44 -0400 Subject: speeding up computers (was Re: Terminals...) In-Reply-To: <4C72F005.9060602@neurotica.com> References: <AANLkTinFops3Xw_cJhoLMY7Faiz25oBFTu0mMDkFBJHf@mail.gmail.com> <20100823143356.H67203@shell.lmi.net> <4C72EE37.3010904@vaxen.net> <4C72F005.9060602@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4C72F478.1090406@gmail.com> Dave McGuire wrote: > On 8/23/10 5:55 PM, Doc Shipley wrote: >>> Microsoft is not the only company whose design policies are predicated >>> on an assumption of Moore's law. But it is one of the most obvious. >> >> It's very odd to me that Apple's OS X needs at least as much CPU, RAM, >> and disk as current Windows, but nobody beats on it for being bloated. > > It's not slow. =) I'm not by any means a fan of Windows (or Mac OS, really), but I have Windows 7 and Mac OS X 10.6 installed on the same machine and they're both roughly the same speed. I have a couple of much faster OSes installed on the same machine (which supports test environments) that run significantly faster, but that's neither here nor there. Peace... Sridhar From drb at msu.edu Mon Aug 23 17:53:18 2010 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2010 18:53:18 -0400 Subject: DEC "Prime to VAX tape/conv utilities" Message-ID: <20100823225318.9EF5EA5826C@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Stumbled across a reference to what looks like two old DEC products - QS-HG1A9-NZ PRIME TO VAX TAPE UTILITIES QS-HG0A9-NZ PRIME TO VAX CONV UTILITIES while poking at MANX. I would very much like to find documentation and/or the actual software. Anyone have further info? De From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Mon Aug 23 18:41:53 2010 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2010 18:41:53 -0500 Subject: speeding up computers (was Re: Terminals...) In-Reply-To: <4C72E2CE.3040801@neurotica.com> References: <AANLkTinFops3Xw_cJhoLMY7Faiz25oBFTu0mMDkFBJHf@mail.gmail.com><AANLkTinisr7uORmuRhmk4jxii9C=AQtJsKNXoqaZ4nfZ@mail.gmail.com> <4C72DA20.5010006@neurotica.com> <3EF7A7B17C9347BD876C4E3AEA8FB8DE@dell8300> <4C72E2CE.3040801@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4C730741.1020306@gmail.com> Dave McGuire wrote: > On 8/23/10 4:51 PM, Teo Zenios wrote: >> I guess nobody ever bothered to use older hardware with a clean install >> of older Windows (retail not the OEM bloated versions) and use older >> apps to get work done? Its not like your old apps quit working when a >> new version comes along. > > Well, for a few years now, the typical American way of thinking has > been "if it's old, it's bad, and if it's not new, it's old". ... and pretty much everywhere else, too. Never underestimate the need to interoperate with other users as a way of selling tech; e.g. I've been on openoffice for a number of years - but if I have to send something to someone who can only read MS Word, I still find myself needing to run things by a nearby Windows system / Word in order to iron out the glitches. What frustrates me is that I'm still doing the same type of stuff that I used a computer for fifteen years ago - some coding, a bit of graphics stuff, a bit of word-processing, writing emails, looking at a few websites etc. My expectations of what the computer as a tool needs to do for me hasn't changed, but the hardware has got many times faster and the experience seems several times slower. In terms of productivity, I think things may have gone backwards. > This mindset is the very essence of the "well-trained consumer", and > it exists and pervades to the utter delight of salesmen everywhere. I love old stuff. I can usually fix it if it breaks. Service information often exists, or I can reverse-engineer it if needs be. I can sometimes make parts if I can't get spares. And I'm saving the planet by keeping stuff out of landfill and not compounding the problem by asking companies to make me new products. If only I could get a large tax refund for doing that too :-) cheers Jules From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Aug 23 18:57:57 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2010 16:57:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: speeding up computers (was Re: Terminals...) In-Reply-To: <3EF7A7B17C9347BD876C4E3AEA8FB8DE@dell8300> from Teo Zenios at "Aug 23, 10 04:51:50 pm" Message-ID: <201008232357.o7NNvv7O017448@floodgap.com> > I guess nobody ever bothered to use older hardware with a clean install of > older Windows (retail not the OEM bloated versions) and use older apps to > get work done? Its not like your old apps quit working when a new version > comes along. Mac OS 9 forever. (Seriously. Classilla 9.2.1 released yesterday.) -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- A kindness done today is the surest way to a brighter tomorrow. -- Anonymous From binarydinosaurs at gmail.com Mon Aug 23 19:15:30 2010 From: binarydinosaurs at gmail.com (Adrian Graham) Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2010 01:15:30 +0100 Subject: Collection reduction, DEC list Message-ID: <AANLkTikUhNjxvauXqqJx2M+r47M1RrKKwsCP0dzpPO7r@mail.gmail.com> Folks, OK, this is my DEC collection minus the machines I'm keeping, MINC shipping is going to be interesting should anyone want it, see also the DECwriter III. I should keep the DECmate III too really. Most of these machines I used at work in the 80s/90s and rescued them when I was made redundant in 2001, Grey Wall included. I'd hate to recycle this as I've dragged the entire thing around the country and would like to see it go to someone who hates reading docs online like me :) Will I even pick up my VAX programming skills again and need to know the params for the $QIOW routine :/ Anyhoo. This is listed as I went by them on the racks and is by no means complete... VR319 monitor Alpha 3000-400 w/PMAGB Alpha 3000-400 w/PMAGB SZ12 VAX 3100 M38, bits of SZ12 SZ12 DECpc AXP150 Alpha 2000-300 RZ55 RZ55 DECpc XL590 Alpha 3000-400 w/PMAGB DECstation 5000-240 VR262 for DECstations, mono, 17" DECmate III DECwriter IV/LA100 DECwriter III/LA180 MINC-11 w/RX02 MicroVAX 3100-30 MicroVAX 3100-40 (might be a 20) DECserver 250 SZ12 DEMSB-A multi-protocol router x2, 1 1-port and 1 4-port Infoserver 150VXT (bought to netboot the VXT2000s) MicroVAX 3100-30 DECstation 3100 MicroVAX 3100-20 (might be a 40) MDS Fiche set x2 with reader Grey wall, VMS 5.0 and 5.5 updates, some still sealed?! VXT2000 (might be 2) RWZ52 worm drive DEChub90 in DEHUX with 3x DECrepeater 90T-16 DNSES-AA, NOS DECnet/SNA x2 NOS boxed Alpha 3000-400 motherboard, boxed DESPR single port repeater VT420 boxed DECmate II or II DECserver 200/M 3000-300 x3 BA350 in pedestal BA356-JA on its own, single port 16bit pm, RZ74-VW DECserver 300-16 VT1200, no monitor R215F DSSI expansion, narrow box MicroVAX II, BA213 'world' box Alpha 2000 4/233, dual CPU VAX 4000-505A (nice machine! Spare PSUs) VAX 3400 R400X DSSI expansion x2 MicroVAX 2000 x2 cables, boards, 3000-300PSU, *stuff* VT420 VAX 4000-200 CDDS boxes from mid 90s to late 90s Cables, boards, docs. Yes, I'm a hoarder. -- adrian/witchy Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest home? computer collection? www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk From binarydinosaurs at gmail.com Mon Aug 23 19:17:42 2010 From: binarydinosaurs at gmail.com (Adrian Graham) Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2010 01:17:42 +0100 Subject: speeding up computers (was Re: Terminals...) In-Reply-To: <201008232357.o7NNvv7O017448@floodgap.com> References: <3EF7A7B17C9347BD876C4E3AEA8FB8DE@dell8300> <201008232357.o7NNvv7O017448@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <AANLkTimbf0qmHQbDckki8oK2_EWG-g=FAgeY89abYKmw@mail.gmail.com> On 24 August 2010 00:57, Cameron Kaiser <spectre at floodgap.com> wrote: >> I guess nobody ever bothered to use older hardware with a clean install of >> older Windows (retail not the OEM bloated versions) and use older apps to >> get work done? Its not like your old apps quit working when a new version >> comes along. > > Mac OS 9 forever. (Seriously. Classilla 9.2.1 released yesterday.) I need to get that and put it on my Bondi Blue iMac :) -- adrian/witchy Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest home? computer collection? www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk From dm561 at torfree.net Mon Aug 23 21:01:33 2010 From: dm561 at torfree.net (MikeS) Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2010 22:01:33 -0400 Subject: Terminals... References: <mailman.71.1282600926.1006.cctalk@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <96287094FDBF435885154C83F5412F09@vl420mt> ---------------Original Message: Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2010 12:30:39 -0700 From: "Chuck Guzis" <cclist at sydex.com> Subject: Re: Terminals... In general, the public is still working on the "newer is better" theory. Why anyone would want to sit at home and type on a laptop keyboard is beyond me. --Chuck ----------------- You've got the best of both worlds; put it beside your desk, plug in your desktop LCD and adapter for your wireless kbd & mouse and you've got a convenient desktop; unplug it and take it on the road. What's wrong with that? m From mmaginnis at gmail.com Mon Aug 23 21:13:18 2010 From: mmaginnis at gmail.com (Mike Maginnis) Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2010 20:13:18 -0600 Subject: Troubleshooting a 5V Apple III In-Reply-To: <m1OnczY-000J3uC@p850ug1> References: <m1OnczY-000J3uC@p850ug1> Message-ID: <4C732ABE.6060808@gmail.com> On 8/23/2010 1:47 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> >> I suppose, as I'm the one asking for help here, that I'll take the >> advice given and leave the rest without comment. > > My comments on board-swapping were _NOT_ directed at you. Old-timers here > will know it's a perpetual rant of mine :-). Quite simply I can't see how > making random changes to a device until it appers to work again is in any > way actually putting it right. > > However, I have been caught so often by making assumptions when doing a > repair that I have learnt (I hope) that it is best to assume nothing and > check everything. Even if you know the PSU is good, it's best to check it > when powering the computer. YOu may well think you know a switch is > working perfectly, this did not stop be being led on a merry dance one > afternoon when the paper-out microswtich in an HP printer clicked > perfectly but was in fact stuck _closed_. > > Do you have a scheamtic of the machine? If so, is it on-line anywhere. > I'll fidn a way to take a look at it and suggest more tests... > > -tony > Understood. Thanks for the explanation. I'll check the PSUs with the multimeter tonight. There's a set of Apple III schematics here: http://apple3.org/iiischematics.html I appreciate your assistance. - Mike From dm561 at torfree.net Mon Aug 23 21:17:20 2010 From: dm561 at torfree.net (MikeS) Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2010 22:17:20 -0400 Subject: speeding up computers (was Re: Terminals...) References: <mailman.71.1282600926.1006.cctalk@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <F28B2680690E4E4DA34FBD610BD6F028@vl420mt> --------------Original Message: Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2010 18:02:45 -0400 From: Dave McGuire <mcguire at neurotica.com> Subject: Re: speeding up computers (was Re: Terminals...) To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <4C72F005.9060602 at neurotica.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On 8/23/10 5:55 PM, Doc Shipley wrote: >> Microsoft is not the only company whose design policies are predicated >> on an assumption of Moore's law. But it is one of the most obvious. > > It's very odd to me that Apple's OS X needs at least as much CPU, RAM, > and disk as current Windows, but nobody beats on it for being bloated. It's not slow. =) -Dave --------- Well, you did show remarkable restraint up to this point... ;-) m From brianlanning at gmail.com Mon Aug 23 21:20:28 2010 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2010 21:20:28 -0500 Subject: speeding up computers (was Re: Terminals...) In-Reply-To: <4C72E3A5.8030206@attglobal.net> References: <AANLkTinFops3Xw_cJhoLMY7Faiz25oBFTu0mMDkFBJHf@mail.gmail.com> <AANLkTinisr7uORmuRhmk4jxii9C=AQtJsKNXoqaZ4nfZ@mail.gmail.com> <4C72DA20.5010006@neurotica.com> <AANLkTi=SNrkxBfO+1qOhPs51m1Ok_Jza9xXQtrPW6+Jc@mail.gmail.com> <4C72E3A5.8030206@attglobal.net> Message-ID: <AANLkTinqEwJXahSBJH+maxc5KXuwprDGYbp1Xii7T_=J@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, Aug 23, 2010 at 4:09 PM, Barry L. Kline <blkline at attglobal.net> wrote: > errr, no. ?Linux distros are not stricken with the same affliction. > While they generally are more "windows-user friendly" then they have > previously been (which means more bloat to cover the expected features > 'doze users are accustomed to) This is what I was referring to. >they can most readily be converted back > to a leaner, meaner OS with little effort. Windows can also, but with a lot more work. brian From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Aug 23 21:34:24 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2010 22:34:24 -0400 Subject: speeding up computers (was Re: Terminals...) In-Reply-To: <F28B2680690E4E4DA34FBD610BD6F028@vl420mt> References: <mailman.71.1282600926.1006.cctalk@classiccmp.org> <F28B2680690E4E4DA34FBD610BD6F028@vl420mt> Message-ID: <4C732FB0.1000602@neurotica.com> On 8/23/10 10:17 PM, MikeS wrote: > --------------Original Message: > Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2010 18:02:45 -0400 > From: Dave McGuire <mcguire at neurotica.com> > Subject: Re: speeding up computers (was Re: Terminals...) > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > Message-ID: <4C72F005.9060602 at neurotica.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > On 8/23/10 5:55 PM, Doc Shipley wrote: >>> Microsoft is not the only company whose design policies are predicated >>> on an assumption of Moore's law. But it is one of the most obvious. >> >> It's very odd to me that Apple's OS X needs at least as much CPU, RAM, >> and disk as current Windows, but nobody beats on it for being bloated. > > It's not slow. =) > > -Dave > --------- > Well, you did show remarkable restraint up to this point... > ;-) ;) -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Mon Aug 23 21:20:19 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2010 23:20:19 -0300 Subject: speeding up computers (was Re: Terminals...) References: <AANLkTinFops3Xw_cJhoLMY7Faiz25oBFTu0mMDkFBJHf@mail.gmail.com> <AANLkTinisr7uORmuRhmk4jxii9C=AQtJsKNXoqaZ4nfZ@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <020a01cb4335$2b4c75f0$0600000a@portajara> >The real problem is windows. They load it up with bloat so that you >need a faster processor and more memory, then drop support for older >versions that didn't do so much crud. The end result is that you're >forced into upgrading to a slower operating system (that is, it's >doing more) at the same time you're upgrading to faster hardware. Am I the only one here who uses windows XP and windows 2000 for a LONG time (without reformatting) and everything works? :oO From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Mon Aug 23 21:21:57 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2010 23:21:57 -0300 Subject: speeding up computers (was Re: Terminals...) References: <AANLkTinFops3Xw_cJhoLMY7Faiz25oBFTu0mMDkFBJHf@mail.gmail.com><AANLkTinisr7uORmuRhmk4jxii9C=AQtJsKNXoqaZ4nfZ@mail.gmail.com> <4C72DA20.5010006@neurotica.com><3EF7A7B17C9347BD876C4E3AEA8FB8DE@dell8300> <4C72E2CE.3040801@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <020b01cb4335$2cb46a60$0600000a@portajara> > Well, for a few years now, the typical American way of thinking has > been "if it's old, it's bad, and if it's not new, it's old". Dave, this is the spring that moves the society, and make us happy! If things didn't change, how would you have your three-sixty? :o) Greetings from Brazil! Alexandre Souza, PU1BZZ From oltmansg at bellsouth.net Mon Aug 23 21:45:28 2010 From: oltmansg at bellsouth.net (Geoff Oltmans) Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2010 21:45:28 -0500 Subject: speeding up computers (was Re: Terminals...) In-Reply-To: <020a01cb4335$2b4c75f0$0600000a@portajara> References: <AANLkTinFops3Xw_cJhoLMY7Faiz25oBFTu0mMDkFBJHf@mail.gmail.com> <AANLkTinisr7uORmuRhmk4jxii9C=AQtJsKNXoqaZ4nfZ@mail.gmail.com> <020a01cb4335$2b4c75f0$0600000a@portajara> Message-ID: <85401DD3-FF31-4EB0-924C-E8F002D49C90@bellsouth.net> Same here. Haven't had any real problems with XP since first installing it ages ago, with the possible exception of some old DOS software that quit working after one of the updates. Still, I think it's got a pretty good track record. That said, I do use OS X almost exclusively on a couple MacBooks at home. ;) On Aug 23, 2010, at 9:20 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >> The real problem is windows. They load it up with bloat so that you >> need a faster processor and more memory, then drop support for older >> versions that didn't do so much crud. The end result is that you're >> forced into upgrading to a slower operating system (that is, it's >> doing more) at the same time you're upgrading to faster hardware. > > Am I the only one here who uses windows XP and windows 2000 for a LONG time (without reformatting) and everything works? :oO From brianlanning at gmail.com Mon Aug 23 21:59:39 2010 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2010 21:59:39 -0500 Subject: speeding up computers (was Re: Terminals...) In-Reply-To: <020a01cb4335$2b4c75f0$0600000a@portajara> References: <AANLkTinFops3Xw_cJhoLMY7Faiz25oBFTu0mMDkFBJHf@mail.gmail.com> <AANLkTinisr7uORmuRhmk4jxii9C=AQtJsKNXoqaZ4nfZ@mail.gmail.com> <020a01cb4335$2b4c75f0$0600000a@portajara> Message-ID: <AANLkTiko-OUSs-g39OhnDJxTHQifQow7ZEg2oqobbUxe@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, Aug 23, 2010 at 9:20 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas <pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com> wrote: > ? Am I the only one here who uses windows XP and windows 2000 for a LONG > time (without reformatting) and everything works? :oO I do this too. (I think most of us here do this and we're the exception) I've never had anti-virus software installed on my computer, yet manage to never get a virus. Amazing! Most people allow their computer to get spywared, then wonder why it's going so slow and think they need a new one. When they get the new one, they immediately get spywared. brian From cclist at sydex.com Mon Aug 23 22:07:29 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2010 20:07:29 -0700 Subject: Terminals... In-Reply-To: <96287094FDBF435885154C83F5412F09@vl420mt> References: <mailman.71.1282600926.1006.cctalk@classiccmp.org>, <96287094FDBF435885154C83F5412F09@vl420mt> Message-ID: <4C72D501.22066.5F9D8A@cclist.sydex.com> On 23 Aug 2010 at 22:01, MikeS wrote: > You've got the best of both worlds; put it beside your desk, plug in > your desktop LCD and adapter for your wireless kbd & mouse and you've > got a convenient desktop; unplug it and take it on the road. What's > wrong with that? Sure, and when it's lost or stolen while you're on the road, you're out your home system too. Okay, you can add a keyboard, mouse, AC adapter and display to get something that functions more-or-less as a desktop. But what I see are laptops used as-is as desktops with all of their ergonomic shortcomings. When, on a TV program or movie, have you ever seen a laptop used with the external kit? --Chuck From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Mon Aug 23 23:18:05 2010 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2010 21:18:05 -0700 Subject: Terminals... In-Reply-To: <4C72D501.22066.5F9D8A@cclist.sydex.com> References: <mailman.71.1282600926.1006.cctalk@classiccmp.org>, <96287094FDBF435885154C83F5412F09@vl420mt> <4C72D501.22066.5F9D8A@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4C7347FD.9010407@mail.msu.edu> Chuck Guzis wrote: > > When, on a TV program or movie, have you ever seen a laptop used with > the external kit? > When, on a TV program or movie, have you ever seen the usage of computers accurately portrayed? (Sorry, just had to throw that in :)) Josh (Still wants an SGI laptop from "Twister") From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Aug 24 00:44:09 2010 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2010 22:44:09 -0700 Subject: Collection reduction, DEC list In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikUhNjxvauXqqJx2M+r47M1RrKKwsCP0dzpPO7r@mail.gmail.com> References: <AANLkTikUhNjxvauXqqJx2M+r47M1RrKKwsCP0dzpPO7r@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <p0624080ec8990c19c396@[192.168.1.199]> At 1:15 AM +0100 8/24/10, Adrian Graham wrote: >OK, this is my DEC collection minus the machines I'm keeping, MINC >shipping is going to be interesting should anyone want it, see also >the DECwriter III. I should keep the DECmate III too really. WOW!!!! I'm trying to reduce my collection, and if you weren't on the right side of the pond, I'd be seriously looking at some of that hardware! I really hope you find homes for it, that is some seriously nice stuff! Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | From pinball at telus.net Mon Aug 23 11:04:07 2010 From: pinball at telus.net (John Robertson) Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2010 09:04:07 -0700 Subject: 1970s TTL specs and prices In-Reply-To: <92F57207CB784CCD800996826CB3C90D@vl420mt> References: <mailman.66.1282544082.1006.cctalk@classiccmp.org> <92F57207CB784CCD800996826CB3C90D@vl420mt> Message-ID: <4C729BF7.3070404@telus.net> MikeS wrote: > --------------Original Message: > Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2010 12:21:49 -0700 > From: John Robertson <pinball at telus.net> > Subject: Re: 1970s TTL specs and prices > > MikeS wrote: > <snippage> >> ---------------- >> FWIW, approx. Canadian 100-1000 prices in 1977: >> Gates: .28 >> F-F's etc: .48 >> SRs, adders, etc: 1.50 >> >> 16Kx1 SRAM: $113.74 >> >> mike >> > I do have an Electrosonic catalog (Canada) from the mid 1960s. It is > very handy as it covers things like CDS cells, Germanium items (ratings, > etc) and other odds and ends of industrial electronics where there are > no other sources of information. > > John :-#)# > > ----------------------------------- > Umm, that's where I got the prices; as a matter of fact I used to work > for Electrosonic in the 60s in industrial sales, still around after > all these years... > > mike > Both you and Esonic! (Still around...) I miss the days when ES was on electronics row - there were about five or six surplus stores along the nearby blocks on Younge St. that sold tons of interesting things for young hobbiests...you could by WWII tank radios, surplus computer gear (mainframe), etc... John :-#)# -- John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9 Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, VideoGames) www.flippers.com "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out" From csquared3 at tx.rr.com Mon Aug 23 22:32:56 2010 From: csquared3 at tx.rr.com (Charlie Carothers) Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2010 22:32:56 -0500 Subject: Origin of the term minicomputer (was Re: PDP-1 as minicomputer In-Reply-To: <m1OnbTv-000J3yC@p850ug1> References: <m1OnbTv-000J3yC@p850ug1> Message-ID: <4C733D68.40507@tx.rr.com> Tony Duell wrote: > I will take a look. I assume it's in BASIC, and given that the Yes it is, sorry. It only consists of about 80 lines of code. Now that I look at it a bit more carefully, there are some calls to things like SCALE, PLOT, CPLOT, etc. which are said to be included in the "plug-in Plotter Control ROM". The text also specifies a plotter, though it does not seem to mention a model number. > programming manuals and the manuals for the optional ROMs are available > it shouldn't be too hard to translate it to a more modern BASIC. I totally agree. I think the calling parameters to the additional plotter functions are pretty self explanatory. Since I am in the process of trying to teach myself Visual Basic, maybe that would be a good project to further my education. Later, Charlie C. From pontus at Update.UU.SE Tue Aug 24 01:21:27 2010 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2010 08:21:27 +0200 Subject: Collection reduction, DEC list In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikUhNjxvauXqqJx2M+r47M1RrKKwsCP0dzpPO7r@mail.gmail.com> References: <AANLkTikUhNjxvauXqqJx2M+r47M1RrKKwsCP0dzpPO7r@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20100824062127.GA17251@Update.UU.SE> On Tue, Aug 24, 2010 at 01:15:30AM +0100, Adrian Graham wrote: > DEMSB-A multi-protocol router x2, 1 1-port and 1 4-port Could you tell me more about this? what is it? > DECserver 200/M I could be interested in this, depending on what the shipping amounts to. > VT1200, no monitor Is this an X terminal or one of those nifty VT terminals in a box with VGA and PS/2? In that case I'm interested. > VAX 4000-505A (nice machine! Spare PSUs) Nice! I wonder what shipping to sweden would be, I'm assuming some sort of pallet? Do you have any experience in shipping things like this? (I don't) If I were closer I'd drive down and snatch more than I need, luckily I'm far off and just interested in smaller items :) From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Aug 24 01:30:12 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2010 02:30:12 -0400 Subject: Collection reduction, DEC list In-Reply-To: <20100824062127.GA17251@Update.UU.SE> References: <AANLkTikUhNjxvauXqqJx2M+r47M1RrKKwsCP0dzpPO7r@mail.gmail.com> <20100824062127.GA17251@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <4C7366F4.5070307@neurotica.com> On 8/24/10 2:21 AM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: >> VT1200, no monitor > > Is this an X terminal or one of those nifty VT terminals in a box with > VGA and PS/2? In that case I'm interested. VT1200 is an X terminal; you're thinking of the VT525 which was discussed here recently. I *think* but am not 100% certain that the VT1200 is actually a VAXstation-3100 with special firmware. It's been a long time since I've even thought about those, so verify that information elsewhere if it's important to you. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ball.of.john at gmail.com Tue Aug 24 02:16:19 2010 From: ball.of.john at gmail.com (John Ball) Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2010 00:16:19 -0700 Subject: VAXstation 2000 video References: <mailman.71.1282600926.1006.cctalk@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <FE198E5F6FFA417E8A610032F75C8152@WINDSCAR> Thanks you guys. I'll poke around and see what I can dig up, otherwise I'll use those pinouts and just make a video cable. It does not look too hard. From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Tue Aug 24 08:37:56 2010 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2010 09:37:56 -0400 Subject: Collection reduction, DEC list In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikUhNjxvauXqqJx2M+r47M1RrKKwsCP0dzpPO7r@mail.gmail.com> References: <AANLkTikUhNjxvauXqqJx2M+r47M1RrKKwsCP0dzpPO7r@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4C73CB34.7080603@compsys.to> >Adrian Graham wrote: >Folks, > >[Snip] > >Yes, I'm a hoarder. > I guess that I qualify as well, but my focus was on PDP-11 Qbus hardware. At my end, Dan Cohoe has helped me by taking away 7 of my 8 RL02 racks, the RL01 / RL02 drives and 2 * 9 track tape drives. In addition, there were 2 LA120 printers and a lot of manuals for RT-11. So most of the big stuff is gone. Now I have to sort through around 500 Qbus boards and up to a dozen BA23 / BA123 boxes. I may be able to put together around 6 working RT-11 systems for hobby users. I also have a number of Hatichi 600 MB ESDI drives to use with these systems along with ESDI controllers. There are also RQDX3 controllers to run RX50 floppy drives. And for even larger off line storage, a few TK50 / TK70 tape drives. Is anyone interested in having a PDP-11 Qbus system? It will likely take a year or even two before they could be put together and tested. But if a few of you put in your interest, then I will keep you in mind. For myself, I still run RT-11, but I an a software addict. So I run under an emulator on the PC. I find that the software executes just the same, just that it runs 100 times as fast as a PDP-11/93 on a core 2 duo system (E8200). There does not seem to be any interest in RT-11. BUT maybe I am wrong. Please respond if anyone would like to help with putting together a set RT-11 distributions. Also, I am still working on fixing bugs and coding enhancements for RT-11, but it is less of a goal when no one else seems to be interested. Jerome Fine From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Tue Aug 24 08:55:05 2010 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2010 09:55:05 -0400 Subject: speeding up computers (was Re: Terminals...) In-Reply-To: <020a01cb4335$2b4c75f0$0600000a@portajara> References: <AANLkTinFops3Xw_cJhoLMY7Faiz25oBFTu0mMDkFBJHf@mail.gmail.com> <AANLkTinisr7uORmuRhmk4jxii9C=AQtJsKNXoqaZ4nfZ@mail.gmail.com> <020a01cb4335$2b4c75f0$0600000a@portajara> Message-ID: <4C73CF39.3080100@compsys.to> >Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >> The real problem is windows. They load it up with bloat so that you >> need a faster processor and more memory, then drop support for older >> versions that didn't do so much crud. The end result is that you're >> forced into upgrading to a slower operating system (that is, it's >> doing more) at the same time you're upgrading to faster hardware. > > Am I the only one here who uses windows XP and windows 2000 for a LONG > time (without reformatting) and everything works? :oO I am just about to upgrade from Windows 98SE (used since 2002) to a Windows XP system. I want to use Windows XP to run exactly the same 2 applications as the current system (750 MHz PIII), i.e. Netscape 7.2 and Ersatz-11. I am about to install Netscape on the Windows XP system since I want to drag along all of the old archives (more than 10 years of e-mails and Usenet). I use Ghost for back up on the old system as well as on my wife's Windows XP system which she has been running for about a year. So I am satisfied that it will all work quite well. About the only aspect that I am very disappointed about is the base size of the Windows XP system, i.e. about 6 GB of files. That seems to compress down to about 3 GB with Ghost, but that is more than 10 times my backup file on the current Windows 98SE system for just the system software. Can you make any suggestions as to how you have managed your Windows XP system over the years that would help me to avoid malware and virus problems? Also to reduce the base size of the system when I do a backup? On my present system, all of the files are about 2 GB and that compresses with Ghost to about 1 GB which allows me to fit 4 months on one 4.7 GB DVD and keep the backup files at the end of each month. If I could even end up with just 4 GB of files on the Windows XP system which would fit on one DVD a month, that would be sufficient. Jerome Fine From pontus at Update.UU.SE Tue Aug 24 09:16:28 2010 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2010 16:16:28 +0200 Subject: speeding up computers (was Re: Terminals...) In-Reply-To: <4C73CF39.3080100@compsys.to> References: <AANLkTinFops3Xw_cJhoLMY7Faiz25oBFTu0mMDkFBJHf@mail.gmail.com> <AANLkTinisr7uORmuRhmk4jxii9C=AQtJsKNXoqaZ4nfZ@mail.gmail.com> <020a01cb4335$2b4c75f0$0600000a@portajara> <4C73CF39.3080100@compsys.to> Message-ID: <20100824141628.GA31995@Update.UU.SE> On Tue, Aug 24, 2010 at 09:55:05AM -0400, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > Can you make any suggestions as to how you have managed your Windows XP > system over the years that would help me to avoid malware and virus > problems? Install the service packs and use a hardware firewall. > Also to reduce the base size of the system when I do a backup? Check out xplite, I have not tried it myself, but heard some good about it. http://www.litepc.com/ Not sure how it works with windows update though.. if it affects it at all. /P From cclist at sydex.com Tue Aug 24 09:38:46 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2010 07:38:46 -0700 Subject: speeding up computers (was Re: Terminals...) In-Reply-To: <20100824141628.GA31995@Update.UU.SE> References: <AANLkTinFops3Xw_cJhoLMY7Faiz25oBFTu0mMDkFBJHf@mail.gmail.com>, <4C73CF39.3080100@compsys.to>, <20100824141628.GA31995@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <4C737706.6217.60562B@cclist.sydex.com> On 24 Aug 2010 at 16:16, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > Check out xplite, I have not tried it myself, but heard some good > about it. > > http://www.litepc.com/ > > Not sure how it works with windows update though.. if it affects it at > all. XPLite gets a big <shrug> from me. It fronts XP's control panel's add/remove Windows components and settings, deletes update rollback and temp files mostly. All of which can be accomplished manually. What I wish it would do: Automate moving key files to other partitions and prune the registry of unnecessary entries. --Chuck From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Tue Aug 24 09:41:52 2010 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2010 09:41:52 -0500 Subject: Collection reduction, DEC list In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikUhNjxvauXqqJx2M+r47M1RrKKwsCP0dzpPO7r@mail.gmail.com> References: <AANLkTikUhNjxvauXqqJx2M+r47M1RrKKwsCP0dzpPO7r@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4C73DA30.2080509@gmail.com> Adrian Graham wrote: > Folks, > > OK, this is my DEC collection minus the machines I'm keeping, MINC > shipping is going to be interesting should anyone want it, see also > the DECwriter III. I should keep the DECmate III too really. Urgh. Collection thinning-out is quite soul destroying. BTDT... As nobody's asked it yet, is any of this stuff "important" just because of where it was used (and/or what might be on some of the disks)? I seem to remember you've got a few "interesting" things like that in your collection, but don't recall if it extends to the DEC stuff. And no VT220s? What the heck's wrong with you!? :-P Jules From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Aug 24 09:39:35 2010 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2010 09:39:35 -0500 Subject: speeding up computers (was Re: Terminals...) In-Reply-To: <4C73CF39.3080100@compsys.to> References: <AANLkTinFops3Xw_cJhoLMY7Faiz25oBFTu0mMDkFBJHf@mail.gmail.com> <AANLkTinisr7uORmuRhmk4jxii9C=AQtJsKNXoqaZ4nfZ@mail.gmail.com> <020a01cb4335$2b4c75f0$0600000a@portajara> <4C73CF39.3080100@compsys.to> Message-ID: <201008241439.o7OEdodT032147@billY.EZWIND.NET> At 08:55 AM 8/24/2010, Jerome H. Fine wrote: >Can you make any suggestions as to how you have managed your Windows XP >system over the years that would help me to avoid malware and virus problems? Download and install the free Microsoft Security Essentials, their antivirus / antispyware solution. Don't click on attachments. :-) The horrid ones these days are drive-by infections you catch from web sites, and they blow right past most AV/AS solutions, on purpose. >Also to reduce the base size of the system when I do a backup? On my present >system, all of the files are about 2 GB and that compresses with Ghost to about >1 GB which allows me to fit 4 months on one 4.7 GB DVD and keep the backup >files at the end of each month. If I could even end up with just 4 GB of files on >the Windows XP system which would fit on one DVD a month, that would be >sufficient. You don't have backup problems yet. Don't focus on the size of the base or final Windows installation. If your system goes up in smoke, you'll be reinstalling, and much of what's there comes from the Windows Updates, so you don't really have it either way. If you only have ~300 meg of personal data, continue to use CDs or DVDs for your files. Or switch to thumb drives. Four gig USB thumb drives are $14 at Walmart. By January, the eight gig versions will be that cheap (if they aren't already.) Backup the entire system once in a while by imaging to an external hard drive. One terabyte external hard drives are $63 these days: http://slickdeals.net/permadeal/38313/1tb-western-digital-elements-external-hard-drive Better yet, sign up for a cheap web-based backup service like Carbonite and know you have an automatic off-site backup. - John From tshoppa at wmata.com Tue Aug 24 09:53:07 2010 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim) Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2010 10:53:07 -0400 Subject: DEC "Prime to VAX tape/conv utilities" In-Reply-To: <mailman.73.1282660732.1006.cctalk@classiccmp.org> References: <mailman.73.1282660732.1006.cctalk@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <B136EDE3DF5EC441B6F08E0A7AB872450AC926A241@EX2K7-CMS-1.wmata.local> Dennis writes: > Stumbled across a reference to what looks like two old DEC products - > QS-HG1A9-NZ PRIME TO VAX TAPE UTILITIES > QS-HG0A9-NZ PRIME TO VAX CONV UTILITIES > while poking at MANX. I would very much like to find documentation > and/or the actual software. Anyone have further info? Nearby DEC part numbers seem to fall under QS-HFKA9-NZ "Migration Assistance Service". E.g. QS-HFKA9-NZ MIGRATION ASSISTANCE SERVICE QS-HFLA9-NZ SYSTEM/36 MIGRATION UTILITIES QS-HFMA9-NZ CDC/FORTRAN CONVERSION FILTER QS-HFNA9-NZ CDC/FORTRAN CONVERSION TOOL QS-HFPA9-NZ DG/COBOL CONVERSION FILTER QS-HFQA9-NZ HP/FORTRAN CONVERSION FILTER QS-HFRA9-NZ HP/BASIC CONVERSION FILTER QS-HFSA9-NZ HP VPLUS DECFORMS CONV FILTER QS-HFTA9-NZ HP IMAGE TO RDB CONV FILTER QS-HFUA9-NZ HP IMAGE TO RMS CONV FILTER QS-HFVA9-NZ HP/3000 TO VAX/VMS CONV UTILT QS-HFWA9-NZ WPP-WANG COBOL CONV FILTER QS-HFXA9-NZ WDE WANG DOCUM CONV TOOL QS-HFYA9-NZ VSTAPE WANG DOCUM CONV TOOL QS-HG0A9-NZ PRIME TO VAX CONV UTILITIES QS-HG1A9-NZ PRIME TO VAX TAPE UTILITIES QS-HG2A9-NZ PDP-11 BASIC CONV FILTER QS-HG3A9-NZ PDP-11 MACRO CONV FILTER QS-HG4A9-NZ HP/COBOL CONV FILTER It seems extremely likely that these were tools developed as part of migration assistance services, but companies have always struggled with the line between a "product" and a "service" so it wouldn't be surprising to see in-house tools get turned into products with part numbers etc. Tim. From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Aug 24 09:46:52 2010 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2010 09:46:52 -0500 Subject: speeding up computers (was Re: Terminals...) In-Reply-To: <4C737706.6217.60562B@cclist.sydex.com> References: <AANLkTinFops3Xw_cJhoLMY7Faiz25oBFTu0mMDkFBJHf@mail.gmail.com> <4C73CF39.3080100@compsys.to> <20100824141628.GA31995@Update.UU.SE> <4C737706.6217.60562B@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <201008241457.o7OEv4Z4033436@billY.EZWIND.NET> At 09:38 AM 8/24/2010, Chuck Guzis wrote: >What I wish it would do: Automate moving key files to other >partitions and prune the registry of unnecessary entries. That would presume a program could know what is unnecessary, and that there was a historical record of what was put there and who put it there. - John From pontus at Update.UU.SE Tue Aug 24 09:58:53 2010 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2010 16:58:53 +0200 Subject: speeding up computers (was Re: Terminals...) In-Reply-To: <4C737706.6217.60562B@cclist.sydex.com> References: <AANLkTinFops3Xw_cJhoLMY7Faiz25oBFTu0mMDkFBJHf@mail.gmail.com> <4C73CF39.3080100@compsys.to> <20100824141628.GA31995@Update.UU.SE> <4C737706.6217.60562B@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20100824145853.GA2064@Update.UU.SE> On Tue, Aug 24, 2010 at 07:38:46AM -0700, Chuck Guzis wrote: > XPLite gets a big <shrug> from me. It fronts XP's control panel's > add/remove Windows components and settings, deletes update rollback > and temp files mostly. All of which can be accomplished manually. Hmm, it boasts being able to remove Internet Explorer and other things that comes by default. The home page says: "The latest developments in XPLite now see clean installations of Windows XP in under 350MB" Which is somewhat missleading, you have to make a full installation first and then remove stuff using xplite. /P From scheefj at netscape.net Tue Aug 24 10:51:15 2010 From: scheefj at netscape.net (Jim Scheef) Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2010 11:51:15 -0400 Subject: Simulated telephone Message-ID: <4C73EA73.3020308@netscape.net> Hello all, I would like to play^H^H^H^H use some of my vintage portables the way they were intended. For example, the Radio Shack Model 100 and the HP 110 Portable have 300bps internal modems. I have several other modems thru which these machines could talk to a *NIX but I do not want to pay for multiple phone lines in my home. How can I simulate a POTS connection between these modems? I don't need a dial tone or ringing, etc., as I can just tell one machine to connect and the other to answer. Way back I heard that a few modems would work if the tip and ring wires of the modems were crossed and connected, but most need something more than that. Is there some simple circuit I could build? Surely I'm not the first to want to avoid phone bills for such play^H^H^H^H testing. Jim From dm561 at torfree.net Tue Aug 24 10:56:25 2010 From: dm561 at torfree.net (MikeS) Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2010 11:56:25 -0400 Subject: speeding up computers (was Re: Terminals...) References: <mailman.73.1282660732.1006.cctalk@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <59BE7D5B58A74D82A65CD5B14D9C26B7@vl420mt> ---------------Original Message: Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2010 07:38:46 -0700 From: "Chuck Guzis" <cclist at sydex.com> Subject: Re: speeding up computers (was Re: Terminals...) >XPLite gets a big <shrug> from me. It fronts XP's control panel's >add/remove Windows components and settings, deletes update rollback >and temp files mostly. All of which can be accomplished manually. >What I wish it would do: Automate moving key files to other >partitions and prune the registry of unnecessary entries. >--Chuck ---------------Reply: Some good tips here: http://technical-issues-tips.blogspot.com/2007/08/tips-reduce-size-of-windows-folder.html Back up first and use at your own risk of course. m From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Tue Aug 24 12:04:07 2010 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2010 18:04:07 +0100 Subject: Simulated telephone In-Reply-To: <4C73EA73.3020308@netscape.net> References: <4C73EA73.3020308@netscape.net> Message-ID: <AANLkTikudTq3qtwK9xtQpL3OZUGLYVZMT6JPyszoZt-4@mail.gmail.com> time to build a telephone exchange at home.... /me ducks and runs Dave Caroline On Tue, Aug 24, 2010 at 4:51 PM, Jim Scheef <scheefj at netscape.net> wrote: > Hello all, > > I would like to play^H^H^H^H use some of my vintage portables the way they > were intended. For example, the Radio Shack Model 100 and the HP 110 > Portable have 300bps internal modems. I have several other modems thru which > these machines could talk to a *NIX but I do not want to pay for multiple > phone lines in my home. How can I simulate a POTS connection between these > modems? I don't need a dial tone or ringing, etc., as I can just tell one > machine to connect and the other to answer. Way back I heard that a few > modems would work if the tip and ring wires of the modems were crossed and > connected, but most need something more than that. Is there some simple > circuit I could build? Surely I'm not the first to want to avoid phone bills > for such play^H^H^H^H testing. > > Jim > From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Aug 24 12:37:03 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2010 13:37:03 -0400 Subject: Simulated telephone In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikudTq3qtwK9xtQpL3OZUGLYVZMT6JPyszoZt-4@mail.gmail.com> References: <4C73EA73.3020308@netscape.net> <AANLkTikudTq3qtwK9xtQpL3OZUGLYVZMT6JPyszoZt-4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <AANLkTik64N9u9MuaY9=vx61kUXVozih5g0SHRzxUftR6@mail.gmail.com> On 8/24/10, Dave Caroline <dave.thearchivist at gmail.com> wrote: > time to build a telephone exchange at home.... I have one - it has two lines. It was a product we sold after bisync and SNA emulator sales tanked. There's an 8048 MCU inside, along with two "SLIC"s (Subscriber Line ICs). The 8048 listens to DTMF tones and provides various simulated faults or a solid connection based on the number you dialed. We also had a 4-line product we bought from some other company to see what other products looked like (all did solid connections; few did simulated line faults). Our faux-exchange (sold under the trademark "COMBOX") was really helpful when I was developing V.25 autodialer code for our flagship product. Mostly, we used "busy" and "never answer" codes to test rejects and timeouts, and it didn't tie up two of our modem lines to do it. As for a simple simulation at home, a 6VDC to 24VDC loop might be enough to pull it off, though some devices won't know to pick up unless you simulate an AC ring. -ethan From alexeyt at freeshell.org Tue Aug 24 12:38:01 2010 From: alexeyt at freeshell.org (Alexey Toptygin) Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2010 17:38:01 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Terminals... In-Reply-To: <4C7347FD.9010407@mail.msu.edu> References: <mailman.71.1282600926.1006.cctalk@classiccmp.org>, <96287094FDBF435885154C83F5412F09@vl420mt> <4C72D501.22066.5F9D8A@cclist.sydex.com> <4C7347FD.9010407@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <Pine.NEB.4.64.1008241734280.22611@sdf.lonestar.org> On Mon, 23 Aug 2010, Josh Dersch wrote: > Chuck Guzis wrote: >> >> When, on a TV program or movie, have you ever seen a laptop used with the >> external kit? >> > When, on a TV program or movie, have you ever seen the usage of computers > accurately portrayed? According to the nmap-devel mailng list, the movie Matrix Reloaded had an accurate depiction of using the nmap network scanner... Alexey From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Tue Aug 24 12:44:50 2010 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2010 19:44:50 +0200 Subject: Simulated telephone In-Reply-To: <4C73EA73.3020308@netscape.net> References: <4C73EA73.3020308@netscape.net> Message-ID: <A06680CC95544ACC83E49B9DA6BAF65A@xp1800> > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Namens Jim Scheef > Verzonden: dinsdag 24 augustus 2010 17:51 > Aan: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Onderwerp: Simulated telephone > > Hello all, > > I would like to play^H^H^H^H use some of my vintage portables > the way they were intended. For example, the Radio Shack > Model 100 and the HP 110 Portable have 300bps internal > modems. I have several other modems thru which these machines > could talk to a *NIX but I do not want to pay for multiple > phone lines in my home. How can I simulate a POTS connection > between these modems? I don't need a dial tone or ringing, > etc., as I can just tell one machine to connect and the other > to answer. > Way back I heard that a few modems would work if the tip and > ring wires of the modems were crossed and connected, but most > need something more than that. Is there some simple circuit I > could build? Surely I'm not the first to want to avoid phone > bills for such play^H^H^H^H testing. > > Jim If you can get your hands on a small old analog house phone unit, then you can build your own privat phone network. I've an old PTT Vox unit(dutch phone company)which understands ATF and pulse dailing, 4 internal lines enough to play with modems etc.. -Rik From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Tue Aug 24 12:51:34 2010 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2010 10:51:34 -0700 Subject: Simulated telephone In-Reply-To: <4C73EA73.3020308@netscape.net> References: <4C73EA73.3020308@netscape.net> Message-ID: <ebc6d21a65c27ce79d832fd74a31b44e@cs.ubc.ca> On 2010 Aug 24, at 8:51 AM, Jim Scheef wrote: > I would like to play^H^H^H^H use some of my vintage portables the way > they were intended. For example, the Radio Shack Model 100 and the HP > 110 Portable have 300bps internal modems. I have several other modems > thru which these machines could talk to a *NIX but I do not want to > pay for multiple phone lines in my home. How can I simulate a POTS > connection between these modems? I don't need a dial tone or ringing, > etc., as I can just tell one machine to connect and the other to > answer. Way back I heard that a few modems would work if the tip and > ring wires of the modems were crossed and connected, but most need > something more than that. Is there some simple circuit I could build? > Surely I'm not the first to want to avoid phone bills for such > play^H^H^H^H testing. If both modems in a given connection are older ('80s), lower-speed (300-1200/2400) it will likely work by simply connecting them together and commanding one off-hook in answer mode (ATA ?), then the other off-hook in originate mode (ATD ? ATH1 ?). I have successfully done this with particular modems up to 14.4Kbps but might be forgetting the commands. The older, lower-speed modems are likely to be transformer-coupled onto the line and will inject audio energy onto the line without need for DC line current. Some higher-speed modems do this as well and will work, other higher-speed modems use opto-couplers and need the DC line current to modulate. You shouldn't need to worry about 'crossing' tip and ring. Technically it is more correct to connect tip-tip and ring-ring, although it is not likely to matter one way or the other. At the electrical level it is not a null-modem-type situation where one has to swap xmtr-rcvr circuits. From legalize at xmission.com Tue Aug 24 12:54:07 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2010 11:54:07 -0600 Subject: Simulated telephone In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 24 Aug 2010 13:37:03 -0400. <AANLkTik64N9u9MuaY9=vx61kUXVozih5g0SHRzxUftR6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <E1OnxhH-0008KX-3c@shell.xmission.com> In article <AANLkTik64N9u9MuaY9=vx61kUXVozih5g0SHRzxUftR6 at mail.gmail.com>, Ethan Dicks <ethan.dicks at gmail.com> writes: > On 8/24/10, Dave Caroline <dave.thearchivist at gmail.com> wrote: > > time to build a telephone exchange at home.... > > I have one - it has two lines. It was a product we sold after bisync > and SNA emulator sales tanked. There's an 8048 MCU inside, along with > two "SLIC"s (Subscriber Line ICs). The 8048 listens to DTMF tones and > provides various simulated faults or a solid connection based on the > number you dialed. [...] > > As for a simple simulation at home, a 6VDC to 24VDC loop might be > enough to pull it off, though some devices won't know to pick up > unless you simulate an AC ring. Sounds like a nice little arduino project? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com/the-direct3d-graphics-pipeline/> Legalize Adulthood! <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com> From dgahling at hotmail.com Tue Aug 24 13:07:03 2010 From: dgahling at hotmail.com (Dan Gahlinger) Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2010 14:07:03 -0400 Subject: Simulated telephone In-Reply-To: <ebc6d21a65c27ce79d832fd74a31b44e@cs.ubc.ca> References: <4C73EA73.3020308@netscape.net>, <ebc6d21a65c27ce79d832fd74a31b44e@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <BLU139-W159A1A73DFE537F04E69AEC9830@phx.gbl> if its modem to modem over a typical phone cable, you should be able to use ATA and ATO (that's the letter not the number) O - originate, A - answer used to do this all the time, but it only works in pairs if you want a proper exchange with multiple extensions or something you'd have to do more work. I also toyed with plugging modems into ATA voip adapters and connecting that way, it was a bit weird and speeds weren't the greatest, but I did get it working in a limited fashion > If both modems in a given connection are older ('80s), lower-speed > (300-1200/2400) it will likely work by simply connecting them together > and commanding one off-hook in answer mode (ATA ?), then the other > off-hook in originate mode (ATD ? ATH1 ?). I have successfully done > this with particular modems up to 14.4Kbps but might be forgetting the > commands. From oltmansg at bellsouth.net Tue Aug 24 13:10:01 2010 From: oltmansg at bellsouth.net (geoffrey oltmans) Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2010 11:10:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Simulated telephone In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikudTq3qtwK9xtQpL3OZUGLYVZMT6JPyszoZt-4@mail.gmail.com> References: <4C73EA73.3020308@netscape.net> <AANLkTikudTq3qtwK9xtQpL3OZUGLYVZMT6JPyszoZt-4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <570262.21714.qm@web83903.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> I have hooked up the modems from a Coleco ADAM and Kaypro 2X together before with nothing but phone line and it ran fine. Both of those computers have relatively "dumb" modems though. ________________________________ From: Dave Caroline <dave.thearchivist at gmail.com> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org> Sent: Tue, August 24, 2010 12:04:07 PM Subject: Re: Simulated telephone time to build a telephone exchange at home.... /me ducks and runs Dave Caroline On Tue, Aug 24, 2010 at 4:51 PM, Jim Scheef <scheefj at netscape.net> wrote: > Hello all, > > I would like to play^H^H^H^H use some of my vintage portables the way they > were intended. For example, the Radio Shack Model 100 and the HP 110 > Portable have 300bps internal modems. I have several other modems thru which > these machines could talk to a *NIX but I do not want to pay for multiple > phone lines in my home. How can I simulate a POTS connection between these > modems? I don't need a dial tone or ringing, etc., as I can just tell one > machine to connect and the other to answer. Way back I heard that a few > modems would work if the tip and ring wires of the modems were crossed and > connected, but most need something more than that. Is there some simple > circuit I could build? Surely I'm not the first to want to avoid phone bills > for such play^H^H^H^H testing. > > Jim > From Arno_1983 at gmx.de Tue Aug 24 13:20:55 2010 From: Arno_1983 at gmx.de (Arno Kletzander) Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2010 20:20:55 +0200 Subject: Emulating a smart CRT display unit - ideas? Message-ID: <20100824182055.261030@gmx.net> Hello listmembers, some of you will perhaps remember me being stuck with a problem regarding a Fujitsu FANUC "mate TG" CNC controller (rebadged as "Siemens Sinumerik"), of which I have the main unit but not the monitor. Thanks to a very nice guy living nearby, I was provided with some new information about the interface, which is rather uncommon in itself. I had already guessed that there is a significant amount of smarts in the monitor; the newly acquired documentation confirms this. The silicon brain (CRT controller) of the thing is called LSI HD46505. Integrated with a 12" monochrome CRT display, it features capabilities for a text mode with 64 columns * 24 lines (character size 7*9 dots in an 8*16 character cell), a magnified text mode with 16 columns * 14 lines (21*27 dots in a 32*27 cell) and a b&W bitmapped mode with a resolution of 512*384 dots. Text and graphics can be displayed alone or in combination. The supported character set seems to be a subset of ASCII from 0x20 to 0x5f. Text and raster graphics operations in absolute addressing are controlled by a unidirectional 12 bit parallel interface with strobe (AB0 - AB2, DB0-DB8, WP) in differential signalling, furthermore there are four more differential signals called +HP2, -HP2, +VP2, -VP2 that allow some kind of incremental (relative) graphics cursor positioning by pulse trains. The signalling diagrams indicate a minimum cycle time of 20 us for the parallel interface and 110 us for the counter channels. Does this ring any bells with anyone? Are there similar monitors out there that might be converted with little effort? Otherwise, the registers and instructions are described in enough detail so that making a replacement or some sort of emulation at least seems possible. What sort of hard- and/or software would one be looking at to accomplish this? I have some hazy memory of seeing a demonstration of a Pong game programmed in LabView(!) running on an FPGA based device which would directly generate VGA output, but that was a very expensive unit. For now I'm just looking for a cheap and simple way to give me some idea of what, if anything, the controller is trying to display. As I think the data will be coming in bursts (only e.g. when a new screen mask is displayed), a microcontroller with a suitable amount of buffer memory might be sufficient to translate the interface signals into serial data and send them to a PC, which would then generate and display the image. Thanks for your input, yours sincerely Arno Kletzander -- GRATIS f?r alle GMX-Mitglieder: Die maxdome Movie-FLAT! Jetzt freischalten unter http://portal.gmx.net/de/go/maxdome01 From arcarlini at iee.org Tue Aug 24 13:35:34 2010 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2010 19:35:34 +0100 Subject: speeding up computers (was Re: Terminals...) In-Reply-To: <20100824145853.GA2064@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <D8229BE518434ED6AA6B112B53E2B4E7@ANTONIOPC> Pontus Pihlgren [pontus at Update.UU.SE] wrote: > Hmm, it boasts being able to remove Internet Explorer and > other things > that comes by default. The home page says: > > "The latest developments in XPLite now see clean installations of > Windows XP in under 350MB" > > Which is somewhat missleading, you have to make a full installation > first and then remove stuff using xplite. I believe that the point is you take your XP CD and make a copy on hard disk, download the latest service pack and "slipstream" it into that copy, use Xplite to strip stuff out of what you now have, download the patches-du-jour and integrate those in (iirc xplite does that too), add a bunch of software you'd like to install automatically (if you want), and then burn the result to CD. Do it right (i.e. with an auto-answer file) and your re-installation now becomes: - pop in CD - quick format drive (if necessary) - kick off installation - do something else for N minutes When you come back you have an up-to-date XP installation. (OK, you might want to do a Windows Update because patches come out with quite monotonous regularity), but you don't need to baby sit it. At least that's how I believe you are supposed to use Xplite ... I do all the setup by hand because I'm odd like that :-) Antonio From hachti at hachti.de Tue Aug 24 13:53:16 2010 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2010 20:53:16 +0200 Subject: Needed: Funny pdp8/e (plotter) demo software! Message-ID: <4C74151C.2060509@hachti.de> Hi folks, we'll have an event here in Kiel on Friday night ("Museumsnacht") where my bosses decided (to be fair... I steered into that direction as best I could) to present a snippet of the Kiel collection. I'll be standing around in a corner with a pdp8/e. Equipped with 2 RK05, TU56, VT05, PC04, and CalComp 565 (0.1mm/step variant). I'm still looking for funny stuff to present. I'm running short on time and would be very happy to get some hints to nice graphic programs and other toys. I have some BASIC games from the net. That's not too much. There *must* be funny software involving the plotter somewhere out in the world! The best would be something that allows me to create little souvenirs for the more interested people. And something that draws complex stuff and takes long time. I have no clue about BASIC plotter support. I can use PAL sources (if there's no need for extra plotter code), BASIC, and FORTRAN IV. I have the plotter routines installed and working. Everything is installed and working. BTW the local VT05 didn't come up today. No high voltage. I looked around a bit and gave it up. But I needed the VT05 to blindly command the 8/e while doing file transfers from my notebook. And after some two hours - it started. And is running stable since then - with better image than before. I really hope that this isn't the "clear mind before dead"... Best wishes, Philipp :-) From mikelee at tdh.com Tue Aug 24 14:04:59 2010 From: mikelee at tdh.com (Michael Lee) Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2010 14:04:59 -0500 Subject: Craigslist post of "Retro Computers" in VA Message-ID: <4C7417DB.8060408@tdh.com> Somewhere near DC appears to be someone selling a large collection of vintage micros. Not mine but in case people were interested and nearby: http://washingtondc.craigslist.org/nva/sys/1915650636.html From hachti at hachti.de Tue Aug 24 14:05:57 2010 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2010 21:05:57 +0200 Subject: Collection reduction, DEC list In-Reply-To: <4C73DA30.2080509@gmail.com> References: <AANLkTikUhNjxvauXqqJx2M+r47M1RrKKwsCP0dzpPO7r@mail.gmail.com> <4C73DA30.2080509@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4C741815.1030601@hachti.de> > Urgh. Collection thinning-out is quite soul destroying. BTDT... No, it isn't: It frees up space for more interesting stuff. I find it more useful to keep only a few of each and keep space reserves for the next big load...! > And no VT220s? What the heck's wrong with you!? :-P What's that? A video game? ;-) Regards, Ph :-) From mikelee at tdh.com Tue Aug 24 14:08:05 2010 From: mikelee at tdh.com (Michael Lee) Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2010 14:08:05 -0500 Subject: Simulated telephone In-Reply-To: <4C73EA73.3020308@netscape.net> References: <4C73EA73.3020308@netscape.net> Message-ID: <4C741895.3040203@tdh.com> PBX Simulators, different makes and models out there and while currently it appears the ones on ebay cost more than it would new, they can usually be obtained for a reasonable cost. The models I've used have a handful of POTS jacks, 4 or 8 of them, and it gives basic tone and dial, you just dial 1 for POTS 1, etc. On 8/24/2010 10:51 AM, Jim Scheef wrote: > Hello all, > > I would like to play^H^H^H^H use some of my vintage portables the way > they were intended. For example, the Radio Shack Model 100 and the HP > 110 Portable have 300bps internal modems. I have several other modems > thru which these machines could talk to a *NIX but I do not want to > pay for multiple phone lines in my home. How can I simulate a POTS > connection between these modems? I don't need a dial tone or ringing, > etc., as I can just tell one machine to connect and the other to > answer. Way back I heard that a few modems would work if the tip and > ring wires of the modems were crossed and connected, but most need > something more than that. Is there some simple circuit I could build? > Surely I'm not the first to want to avoid phone bills for such > play^H^H^H^H testing. > > Jim From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Aug 24 14:24:24 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2010 15:24:24 -0400 Subject: Simulated telephone In-Reply-To: <E1OnxhH-0008KX-3c@shell.xmission.com> References: <AANLkTik64N9u9MuaY9=vx61kUXVozih5g0SHRzxUftR6@mail.gmail.com> <E1OnxhH-0008KX-3c@shell.xmission.com> Message-ID: <AANLkTikN=WGkwdxQ+bBRcCkq04yW2usFuF8cdQb6gRib@mail.gmail.com> On 8/24/10, Richard <legalize at xmission.com> wrote: > > In article <AANLkTik64N9u9MuaY9=vx61kUXVozih5g0SHRzxUftR6 at mail.gmail.com>, > Ethan Dicks <ethan.dicks at gmail.com> writes: >> I have one - it has two lines... There's an 8048 MCU inside, along with >> two "SLIC"s (Subscriber Line ICs). The 8048 listens to DTMF tones and >> provides various simulated faults or a solid connection based on the >> number you dialed. [...] >> >> As for a simple simulation at home, a 6VDC to 24VDC loop might be >> enough to pull it off, though some devices won't know to pick up >> unless you simulate an AC ring. > > Sounds like a nice little arduino project? If you mean as an enhancement to the COMBOX, that might be pretty cool. I don't relish trying to hammer on the 8048 code - it was written by a hardware engineer and has zero comments, zero vertical formatting, and has tests followed by branches two and three code pages later. The listing resembles the output of an automated non-symbolic code disassembler (the same guy wrote the firmware for our Qbus product - I had to re-write most of the structure for the firmware for our VAX-BI card). If you mean as a controller for a home-CO, I don't see the application. If you need a powered loop (depending on the age of the gear attached to it), you need enough DC voltage (up to 48VDC) to make the two devices think they are attached to the POTS network. When we were kids, that was a lantern battery to make a couple of analog phones work for talking, for example. If the receiving device won't connect without a ring (I've seen modems and such that needed ring voltage to latch relays, but many devices can just be put in "ANSWER" mode), that's another animal entirely. You can probably get away with 120VAC @ 60Hz, but officially, ISTR, it's more like 90VAC @ 20Hz. That part should only matter if you are trying to get a mechanical bell ringer to sound. An arduino won't help with establishing a DC voltage, nor synthesizing an AC voltage (at least not in any way that couldn't replaced by a 555 timer) -ethan From mikelee at tdh.com Tue Aug 24 14:24:27 2010 From: mikelee at tdh.com (Michael Lee) Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2010 14:24:27 -0500 Subject: NEC "Advanced Personal Computer" Message-ID: <4C741C6B.5000709@tdh.com> I recently got my hands on a NEC Advanced Personal Computer. From what I read, it's a MS-DOS and CP/M capable machine. It's got dual 8" drives and about the size of a terminal. With that said, anyone have any more information on this system? Anything to boot it perhaps, and of course, the unit I have didn't come with a keyboard, and the connector appears to be some type of centronics connector. Any suggestions on where to find such a beast? From als at thangorodrim.de Tue Aug 24 14:15:43 2010 From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber) Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2010 21:15:43 +0200 Subject: Terminals... In-Reply-To: <Pine.NEB.4.64.1008241734280.22611@sdf.lonestar.org> References: <mailman.71.1282600926.1006.cctalk@classiccmp.org> <96287094FDBF435885154C83F5412F09@vl420mt> <4C72D501.22066.5F9D8A@cclist.sydex.com> <4C7347FD.9010407@mail.msu.edu> <Pine.NEB.4.64.1008241734280.22611@sdf.lonestar.org> Message-ID: <20100824191543.GA9922@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> On Tue, Aug 24, 2010 at 05:38:01PM +0000, Alexey Toptygin wrote: > On Mon, 23 Aug 2010, Josh Dersch wrote: > > >Chuck Guzis wrote: > >> > >>When, on a TV program or movie, have you ever seen a laptop used > >>with the external kit? > >> > >When, on a TV program or movie, have you ever seen the usage of > >computers accurately portrayed? > > According to the nmap-devel mailng list, the movie Matrix Reloaded > had an accurate depiction of using the nmap network scanner... Not only that, but they also showed breaking into the system with an exploit for a ssh vulnerability - both of which were real an reasonably current at the time the movie was made. Kind regards, Alex. -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison From jim at photojim.ca Tue Aug 24 14:31:39 2010 From: jim at photojim.ca (Jim MacKenzie) Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2010 13:31:39 -0600 Subject: Simulated telephone References: <4C73EA73.3020308@netscape.net> <4C741895.3040203@tdh.com> Message-ID: <60732329CCB14005BC8050E7AA9D3447@JIMM> Another option would be to use VoIP. 300 bps seems to work fine on VoIP (1200 less so). A couple of ATAs and an account on a VoIP provider, and you can do this. You will even be able to dial to real services in remote places if you want. There are usually * dial codes you can use to connect to clients on the same VoIP provider, to keep the call free. The problem here is forcing the answering host to answer. If you have a terminal running at the answering host, you can manually answer even an automatic modem (and thus have the modems connected directly together), but transferring that connection to a serial console is a little trickier. Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Lee" <mikelee at tdh.com> To: <General at adelaide.photojim.ca>; "Discussion at adelaide.photojim.ca:On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> Sent: Tuesday, August 24, 2010 1:08 PM Subject: Re: Simulated telephone > PBX Simulators, different makes and models out there and while currently > it appears the ones on ebay cost more than it would new, they can usually > be obtained for a reasonable cost. The models I've used have a handful of > POTS jacks, 4 or 8 of them, and it gives basic tone and dial, you just > dial 1 for POTS 1, etc. From silent700 at gmail.com Tue Aug 24 14:54:37 2010 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2010 14:54:37 -0500 Subject: Simulated telephone In-Reply-To: <4C741895.3040203@tdh.com> References: <4C73EA73.3020308@netscape.net> <4C741895.3040203@tdh.com> Message-ID: <AANLkTi=k9dBSV=LpG21RzqLXGpB4R5fe9t5ib+pe4pcD@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Aug 24, 2010 at 2:08 PM, Michael Lee <mikelee at tdh.com> wrote: > PBX Simulators, different makes and models out there and while currently it > appears the ones on ebay cost more than it would new, they can usually be > obtained for a reasonable cost. ?The models I've used have a handful of POTS > jacks, 4 or 8 of them, and it gives basic tone and dial, you just dial 1 for > POTS 1, etc. There are a number of line simulators out there for POTS testing that cost way more than they should. Another route is a small office PBX. I have a Panasonic (model# not handy now but I can supply it later) that cost me $75 and supports 4 POTS lines and 12 internal lines. Each internal line has an extension # and is dialable. The Panasonics are nice in that they are analog/digital hybrids. You will need one Panasonic digital set to program it (although I see some companies have serial interfaces and DOS-based programming software) but all lines can handle purely analog sets. I have used mine to demo a number of WE500 sets, so they do seem to provide ample current for ring voltage (not that modem users will care much about that.) I have not used mine yet for modems, as I have a smaller 4-line benchtop simulator that's a bit more convenient, but I know the Panasonics often had fax machines hung off of their line ports, so it should be quite doable. For those attending VCF-MW, I will probably bring one of both units with one port being used for a modem attached to a terminal server so equipment like the OP mentioned (and of course the Silent700 terminal :) can access our host system(s.) We're gonna lay a lot of copper at this thing :) -- jht -j From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Tue Aug 24 15:01:55 2010 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2010 16:01:55 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Mystery keyboard In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.2.00.1008180806550.12113@grumble.deltasoft.com> References: <E1Oljsi-0004Zr-2M@shell.xmission.com> <alpine.LFD.2.00.1008180806550.12113@grumble.deltasoft.com> Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1008241556470.3337@cpumagic.scol.pa.us> Does anyone recognize this? http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/DSC05820.JPG It's laid out similar to an 029 keypunch keyboard. Perhaps an IBM key-to-tape machine? The switches look very un-IBM-like, though. Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Aug 24 15:06:17 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2010 16:06:17 -0400 Subject: Mystery keyboard In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1008241556470.3337@cpumagic.scol.pa.us> References: <E1Oljsi-0004Zr-2M@shell.xmission.com> <alpine.LFD.2.00.1008180806550.12113@grumble.deltasoft.com> <Pine.LNX.4.64.1008241556470.3337@cpumagic.scol.pa.us> Message-ID: <AANLkTimeUKB=nNdF82yhkBroHJ3WdiUXdeLviiXeqih1@mail.gmail.com> > ? It's laid out similar to an 029 keypunch keyboard. ?Perhaps an IBM > key-to-tape machine? ?The switches look very un-IBM-like, though. It is probably from an 029/129 clone. -- Will From legalize at xmission.com Tue Aug 24 15:09:02 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2010 14:09:02 -0600 Subject: Simulated telephone In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 24 Aug 2010 15:24:24 -0400. <AANLkTikN=WGkwdxQ+bBRcCkq04yW2usFuF8cdQb6gRib@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <E1Onznq-0001AS-Al@shell.xmission.com> In article <AANLkTikN=WGkwdxQ+bBRcCkq04yW2usFuF8cdQb6gRib at mail.gmail.com>, Ethan Dicks <ethan.dicks at gmail.com> writes: > An arduino won't help with establishing a DC > voltage, nor synthesizing an AC voltage (at least not in any way that > couldn't replaced by a 555 timer) No, an arduino alone won't do it for the analog supplies as you rightly point out. However, people have been hacking lots of this sort of extra stuff onto arduino's lately, so there is a fairly large community to tap for suggestions on how to do that sort of stuff. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com/the-direct3d-graphics-pipeline/> Legalize Adulthood! <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com> From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 24 13:21:57 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2010 19:21:57 +0100 (BST) Subject: speeding up computers (was Re: Terminals...) In-Reply-To: <4C730741.1020306@gmail.com> from "Jules Richardson" at Aug 23, 10 06:41:53 pm Message-ID: <m1Ony8Q-000J3uC@p850ug1> > I love old stuff. I can usually fix it if it breaks. Service information often > exists, or I can reverse-engineer it if needs be. I can sometimes make parts > if I can't get spares. And I'm saving the planet by keeping stuff out of > landfill and not compounding the problem by asking companies to make me new > products. If only I could get a large tax refund for doing that too :-) > For once I did not write that, but I hardly need to say that I agree with it totally... :-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 24 13:37:23 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2010 19:37:23 +0100 (BST) Subject: Origin of the term minicomputer (was Re: PDP-1 as minicomputer In-Reply-To: <4C733D68.40507@tx.rr.com> from "Charlie Carothers" at Aug 23, 10 10:32:56 pm Message-ID: <m1OnyNF-000J3yC@p850ug1> > > Tony Duell wrote: > > I will take a look. I assume it's in BASIC, and given that the > Yes it is, sorry. It only consists of about 80 lines of code. Now that > I look at it a bit more carefully, there are some calls to things like > SCALE, PLOT, CPLOT, etc. which are said to be included in the "plug-in > Plotter Control ROM". The text also specifies a plotter, though it does > not seem to mention a model number. I've taken a look... It looks like standard HP9830 BASIC, with commands from the plotter ROM. The user manual for the plotter ROM is available from the Australian museum site (http://www.hpmuseum.net/) as a .pdf file. That site is not easy to find your way aroumd, I find the easiest thing to do is to follow the 'documents' (or is it 'documentation', I forget, but it's pretty clear) link from the homepage and read down that list until you find the manual you want/ The HP9830 plotter ROM is the HP11271 IIRC, so search the list of manuals for that. It's pretty obvious... It should then be fairly easy to traslate this program for another machine. Whether or not you'd want to is another matter. Personally, I enjoy some old games on the origjnal hardware, but see little interest on them running on modern machines, or even under emulators. We know youcan get much 'better' games on modern hardware, the fun is seeing what you could do with a machine i nthe early 70's. But anyway... I think there is an HP9830 emulator. Again, I've never run it (I doubt I have anythign it would run on...). I suspect that would run the program... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 24 13:30:23 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2010 19:30:23 +0100 (BST) Subject: Troubleshooting a 5V Apple III In-Reply-To: <4C732ABE.6060808@gmail.com> from "Mike Maginnis" at Aug 23, 10 08:13:18 pm Message-ID: <m1OnyGV-000J3xC@p850ug1> > Understood. Thanks for the explanation. > > I'll check the PSUs with the multimeter tonight. It never hurts to be sure of something like this :-) > > There's a set of Apple III schematics here: > > http://apple3.org/iiischematics.html > > I appreciate your assistance. OK, I managed to take a look at them... Assuming you can get a logic probe, my first test would be on the reset circuit -- say on the rest pion of the 6502. Since you mention the machine does something, I would be suprised if it was being held in the reset state, but I've been cuaght by that once (a leaky capacitor in the reset circuit..). So again, it's best to check. Then look at the 'timing' schematic (there's one with a name something like that anyhow). That seems to be where the video sync signals are produced, the CPU clock, etc. Make sure they are. Another word of warning (*becuase I've been 'bitten' by this). A logic probe will tell you if a sighnal is doing something, but in general it won't tell you what it's doing -- the relative timing with other signals, etc. I onve had a fault where a 16 bit shift register (made of 4 4-bit shift register chips) had only the first 4 bits changing. So I assumed the second chip in the chain was dead, and thus not responding to the input from the first chip, and not passing anything on to the next chip i nthe chain either. Well, I changed it, only to find no change in the fault. So I tested again, this time using a logic anaylser to find it was the _first_ chip in the chain that had died, the signals from it were completley mis-timed, Replaced htat (Acutally using the chip I'd taken out when doign the first 'repair'), and everything was fine. But anyway... If you're getting the main clock signals, I would then start looking at the 'video' schematic. You know the video output is missing, let's find out why... Of course it may be a fault elsewhere (CPU/ROM/RAM, for ecample) which is causing some enable signal not to be present, but that's what youneed to establish. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 24 15:15:37 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2010 21:15:37 +0100 (BST) Subject: Vts in a collection In-Reply-To: <4C73DA30.2080509@gmail.com> from "Jules Richardson" at Aug 24, 10 09:41:52 am Message-ID: <m1OnzuG-000J48C@p850ug1> > And no VT220s? What the heck's wrong with you!? :-P Amazingly I don't own a VT220 either. I've got a VT55, many VT100s, a VT105, and a VT240, not not the 'common' DEC terminals... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 24 15:24:31 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2010 21:24:31 +0100 (BST) Subject: Simulated telephone In-Reply-To: <4C73EA73.3020308@netscape.net> from "Jim Scheef" at Aug 24, 10 11:51:15 am Message-ID: <m1Oo02s-000J49C@p850ug1> > > Hello all, > > I would like to play^H^H^H^H use some of my vintage portables the way > they were intended. For example, the Radio Shack Model 100 and the HP > 110 Portable have 300bps internal modems. I have several other modems > thru which these machines could talk to a *NIX but I do not want to pay > for multiple phone lines in my home. How can I simulate a POTS > connection between these modems? I don't need a dial tone or ringing, > etc., as I can just tell one machine to connect and the other to answer. > Way back I heard that a few modems would work if the tip and ring wires > of the modems were crossed and connected, but most need something more > than that. Is there some simple circuit I could build? Surely I'm not > the first to want to avoid phone bills for such play^H^H^H^H testing. What you need is a 'telephone line simulator' There are many versions from the very simple (one phone going off-hook causes the device to send ringing voltage to the other device, then when that goes off-hook they are linked), via the more complicated proper dialing andf ringing tones), up to the 'real' ones which allow you to delibrately degrade the connection (introduce losses, noise, etc) for testing modems and the like. I seem to rememebr last time I did a search for this on google, I found a fairly simple circuit in the second category. There was a simpler one publisehd in the US magazine Popular Electornics (Poptronix???) and reprinted in 'Telephone Projects for the Evil Genius', but that book seems to have so many errors (including extra/missing connections on schematics!) that I am not sure I recomend trying to follow it. If you don't need ringing -- that is you can maually set both devices off-hook, then very often jsut linking the tips and rings of the 2 devbices will work. While telephones need a DC power supply from the phone line (commonly called 'battery' over here since the telephone exchanges ran off large lead-acid batteries), Modems don't generally draw any power from the phone line, so you don't need this DC supply. If for some reason you do need it, then try connected tips and rings as before and connect a 24 V DC supply in series with a 1k resistor (or so...) between tip and ring. -tony From cclist at sydex.com Tue Aug 24 15:57:19 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2010 13:57:19 -0700 Subject: NEC "Advanced Personal Computer" In-Reply-To: <4C741C6B.5000709@tdh.com> References: <4C741C6B.5000709@tdh.com> Message-ID: <4C73CFBF.27982.1BAFE5F@cclist.sydex.com> On 24 Aug 2010 at 14:24, Michael Lee wrote: > I recently got my hands on a NEC Advanced Personal Computer. From > what I read, it's a MS-DOS and CP/M capable machine. It's got dual 8" > drives and about the size of a terminal. > > With that said, anyone have any more information on this system? > Anything to boot it perhaps, and of course, the unit I have didn't > come with a keyboard, and the connector appears to be some type of > centronics connector. Any suggestions on where to find such a beast? This is an early member (coming out of NEC's Business Products Group) of the PC98 series, circa 1982. Superb 7220-generated graphics, you could get the displays as monochrome or color. Otherwise known (in Japan) as the N5200. Not at all IBM-PC compatible, again, based on the NEC PC98 standard that at one time had most of the Japanese PC market. Well-built, but closed architecture (the expansion is based on the "C-bus"). CP/M-86 and MS-DOS are both available (I have disks for both). The disk format is basically 8 sectors of 1024 bytes on 2 sides of 77 tracks. This same format was repeated in 5.25" and 3.5" formats; that is, the format doesn't change with the physical media size. The 3.5" drives spin at 360 RPM, the same as the 5.25" and 8" ones. You'll sometimes see the version of MS-DOS for the PC98 systems referred to as "DOS-V". Can't help you with the keyboard, however. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Tue Aug 24 16:00:37 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2010 14:00:37 -0700 Subject: Mystery keyboard In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimeUKB=nNdF82yhkBroHJ3WdiUXdeLviiXeqih1@mail.gmail.com> References: <E1Oljsi-0004Zr-2M@shell.xmission.com>, <Pine.LNX.4.64.1008241556470.3337@cpumagic.scol.pa.us>, <AANLkTimeUKB=nNdF82yhkBroHJ3WdiUXdeLviiXeqih1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4C73D085.15754.1BE01CB@cclist.sydex.com> On 24 Aug 2010 at 16:06, William Donzelli wrote: > > ? It's laid out similar to an 029 keypunch keyboard. ?Perhaps an IBM > > key-to-tape machine? ?The switches look very un-IBM-like, though. > > It is probably from an 029/129 clone. Almost appears as if it went to a verifier and not a punch. --Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Aug 24 17:21:49 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2010 15:21:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Simulated telephone In-Reply-To: <BLU139-W159A1A73DFE537F04E69AEC9830@phx.gbl> References: <4C73EA73.3020308@netscape.net>, <ebc6d21a65c27ce79d832fd74a31b44e@cs.ubc.ca> <BLU139-W159A1A73DFE537F04E69AEC9830@phx.gbl> Message-ID: <20100824151928.W14939@shell.lmi.net> If you want to be able to test the dialing capabilities, then you need to fake a dial-tone, a ringing signal, and a busy signal at least. Phone line simulators do exist. I use one that was a "project" in Radio-Electronics? about 15 years ago. From jim at photojim.ca Tue Aug 24 17:31:00 2010 From: jim at photojim.ca (Jim MacKenzie) Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2010 16:31:00 -0600 Subject: Simulated telephone References: <4C73EA73.3020308@netscape.net>, <ebc6d21a65c27ce79d832fd74a31b44e@cs.ubc.ca><BLU139-W159A1A73DFE537F04E69AEC9830@phx.gbl> <20100824151928.W14939@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <B6E51C1744284607AC02159BEBBC93A9@JIMM> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fred Cisin" <cisin at xenosoft.com> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> Sent: Tuesday, August 24, 2010 4:21 PM Subject: RE: Simulated telephone > If you want to be able to test the dialing capabilities, then you need to > fake a dial-tone, a ringing signal, and a busy signal at least. An ATA, and a local SIP server (or even a third party one) do this fine. ATA = Analog Telephone Adaptor... it's the very epitome of a phone line emulator. (I use a Linksys PAP2.) Jim From cclist at sydex.com Tue Aug 24 17:33:33 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2010 15:33:33 -0700 Subject: Emulating a smart CRT display unit - ideas? In-Reply-To: <20100824182055.261030@gmx.net> References: <20100824182055.261030@gmx.net> Message-ID: <4C73E64D.19324.213166F@cclist.sydex.com> On 24 Aug 2010 at 20:20, Arno Kletzander wrote: > some of you will perhaps remember me being stuck with a problem > regarding a Fujitsu FANUC "mate TG" CNC controller (rebadged as > "Siemens Sinumerik"), of which I have the main unit but not the > monitor. Thanks to a very nice guy living nearby, I was provided with > some new information about the interface, which is rather uncommon in > itself. I had already guessed that there is a significant amount of > smarts in the monitor; the newly acquired documentation confirms this. > The silicon brain (CRT controller) of the thing is called LSI HD46505. I beleive the HD46505 is basically a clone of the Motorola 6845 CRTC, so there's not a lot of information there. > Does this ring any bells with anyone? Are there similar monitors out > there that might be converted with little effort? Otherwise, the > registers and instructions are described in enough detail so that > making a replacement or some sort of emulation at least seems > possible. What sort of hard- and/or software would one be looking at > to accomplish this? Although I've seen disks from various Fanuc machines, I've never been up close to the actual controller that you describe. I suspect that one might be able to cobble up an interface to a commodity PC, however. > I have some hazy memory of seeing a demonstration of a Pong game > programmed in LabView(!) running on an FPGA based device which would > directly generate VGA output, but that was a very expensive unit. For > now I'm just looking for a cheap and simple way to give me some idea > of what, if anything, the controller is trying to display. If you want a dedicated unit, an FPGA might still be your best bet, if you have the skills (VHDL or Verilog). Alternatively, many faster microcontrollers can directly generate video using nothing but software. But you're going to need a fair level of detail on what actually goes on over those 12 lines before you can get something going. To that end, why not post a note to this guy: http://cncfanuc.blogspot.com/2009/04/fanuc-ac-servo-drive-system- failure.html Who seems to have a lot of information on his hands? Best of luck, Chuck From IanK at vulcan.com Tue Aug 24 19:26:39 2010 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2010 17:26:39 -0700 Subject: Emulating a smart CRT display unit - ideas? In-Reply-To: <4C73E64D.19324.213166F@cclist.sydex.com> References: <20100824182055.261030@gmx.net> <4C73E64D.19324.213166F@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <FF6AB92D97A23A409701CDBF66F03FCD03DC3E6EFC@505fuji> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chuck Guzis > Sent: Tuesday, August 24, 2010 3:34 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Emulating a smart CRT display unit - ideas? > > On 24 Aug 2010 at 20:20, Arno Kletzander wrote: > > > some of you will perhaps remember me being stuck with a problem > > regarding a Fujitsu FANUC "mate TG" CNC controller (rebadged as > > "Siemens Sinumerik"), of which I have the main unit but not the > > monitor. Thanks to a very nice guy living nearby, I was provided with > > some new information about the interface, which is rather uncommon in > > itself. I had already guessed that there is a significant amount of > > smarts in the monitor; the newly acquired documentation confirms > this. > > The silicon brain (CRT controller) of the thing is called LSI > HD46505. > > I beleive the HD46505 is basically a clone of the Motorola 6845 CRTC, > so there's not a lot of information there. > Your description reminded me of the 6847, a less capable but highly integrated variant on the 6845. -- Ian From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Aug 24 19:37:40 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2010 20:37:40 -0400 Subject: Emulating a smart CRT display unit - ideas? In-Reply-To: <4C73E64D.19324.213166F@cclist.sydex.com> References: <20100824182055.261030@gmx.net> <4C73E64D.19324.213166F@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4C7465D4.8000305@neurotica.com> On 8/24/10 6:33 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> some of you will perhaps remember me being stuck with a problem >> regarding a Fujitsu FANUC "mate TG" CNC controller (rebadged as >> "Siemens Sinumerik"), of which I have the main unit but not the >> monitor. Thanks to a very nice guy living nearby, I was provided with >> some new information about the interface, which is rather uncommon in >> itself. I had already guessed that there is a significant amount of >> smarts in the monitor; the newly acquired documentation confirms this. >> The silicon brain (CRT controller) of the thing is called LSI HD46505. > > I beleive the HD46505 is basically a clone of the Motorola 6845 CRTC, > so there's not a lot of information there. I have a vague memory of doing a hack to an IBM PC CGA card that enabled interlacing for a huge improvement in the readability of character-based output. It involved running a wire, and *I think* replacing the 6845 with a 46505. Does anyone else know about this? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From classiccmp at crash.com Tue Aug 24 22:01:04 2010 From: classiccmp at crash.com (Steven M Jones) Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2010 20:01:04 -0700 Subject: Collection reduction, DEC list In-Reply-To: <4C73CB34.7080603@compsys.to> References: <AANLkTikUhNjxvauXqqJx2M+r47M1RrKKwsCP0dzpPO7r@mail.gmail.com> <4C73CB34.7080603@compsys.to> Message-ID: <4C748770.60706@crash.com> Jerome H. Fine wrote: > > Is anyone interested in having a PDP-11 Qbus system? It will likely > take a year or even two before they could be put together and tested. > But if a few of you put in your interest, then I will keep you in mind. Trust that there will be interest in a real LSI-11 system. Distance may be a factor, but time usually fixes that as somebody arranges for a swing to pick up gear. For example I'll be interested, but shipping-challenged out in California. But Qbus systems generally speaking aren't really all that bad to ship, especially in BA23s. > For myself, I still run RT-11, but I an a software addict. [...] > Also, I > am still working on fixing bugs and coding enhancements for RT-11, > but it is less of a goal when no one else seems to be interested. I found working with RT-11 on a lowly PDT-11/150 to be a hoot, even if I had to pound on the keyboard of a VT52 to do it. This was how I passed a summer during college, in sticky August New England heat. It's fun to play with these systems whether it's virtual or physical. The bigger challenge in keeping the ecology alive is making software available. The base OS is, I think, but if compilers and tools aren't then people stop looking after the sources to things as fun but not as well known as ADVENT or what have you. The more that can be easily retrieved and played with, the more longevity the hardware/software ecosystem will have. So hang in there Jerome, there's interest - you're not alone. Including the list for reasons of searchability and registration of interest. /--/Steve. From t.holman808 at gmail.com Tue Aug 24 16:21:03 2010 From: t.holman808 at gmail.com (t.holman808 at gmail.com) Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2010 11:21:03 -1000 Subject: What became of GRI Computer Corporation? Message-ID: <E19E2796-3230-4233-B712-2DC1A471CA9C@gmail.com> Googling online. Also have a share certificate. Did you find out any info. On GRI? Just want to know if I'm a millionaire and have been living life as a peasant Sent from my iPod From chrise at pobox.com Tue Aug 24 19:28:26 2010 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2010 19:28:26 -0500 Subject: Simulated telephone In-Reply-To: <20100824151928.W14939@shell.lmi.net> References: <ebc6d21a65c27ce79d832fd74a31b44e@cs.ubc.ca> <BLU139-W159A1A73DFE537F04E69AEC9830@phx.gbl> <20100824151928.W14939@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20100825002826.GA14137@n0jcf.net> On Tuesday (08/24/2010 at 03:21PM -0700), Fred Cisin wrote: > If you want to be able to test the dialing capabilities, then you need to > fake a dial-tone, a ringing signal, and a busy signal at least. > > Phone line simulators do exist. I use one that was a "project" in > Radio-Electronics? about 15 years ago. I use one of these, Teltone TLS-5, http://www.teltone.com/products/simulators/tls5/home.htm (actually the model TLS-4, which a friend loned to me) I have a collection of acoustic coupled terminal devices and modems here so I actually use an old AT&T deskset telephone to originate calls to a POTS line smart modem connected to a terminal server. From there I can get to numerous Linux boxes running various emulators (DEC PDP RT-11, RSX, CDC NOS, etc) and other vintage systems depending on what we want to play^H^H^H^H test with. ~.~~NO CARRIER Chris -- Chris Elmquist From legalize at xmission.com Wed Aug 25 01:00:02 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2010 00:00:02 -0600 Subject: Simulated telephone In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 24 Aug 2010 19:28:26 -0500. <20100825002826.GA14137@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <E1Oo91m-0000c7-78@shell.xmission.com> In article <20100825002826.GA14137 at n0jcf.net>, Chris Elmquist <chrise at pobox.com> writes: > (actually the model TLS-4, which a friend loned to me) I have a > collection of acoustic coupled terminal devices and modems here > [...] Do tell! As a fellow terminal freak, I'd love to hear what kind of acoustic coupled terminal devices you have! My plan is to do something very similar to what you've done: connect the terminals to a terminal server and then have hosts reachable from that. It never occured to me to have vintage hosts running in emulators on a PC, though, what a great idea! It really completes the vintage experience. Imparting that vintage terminal experience is part of what I'm trying to do with my museum. Having a vintage OS on the other end is brilliant! -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com/the-direct3d-graphics-pipeline/> Legalize Adulthood! <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com> From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Aug 25 01:50:40 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2010 02:50:40 -0400 Subject: Simulated telephone In-Reply-To: <E1Oo91m-0000c7-78@shell.xmission.com> References: <E1Oo91m-0000c7-78@shell.xmission.com> Message-ID: <4C74BD40.4090705@neurotica.com> On 8/25/10 2:00 AM, Richard wrote: > As a fellow terminal freak, I'd love to hear what kind of acoustic > coupled terminal devices you have! Forgive me for jumping in, but I have to ask, does your terminal fetish include terminal emulator software at all, or physical terminals only? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Wed Aug 25 04:20:41 2010 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2010 11:20:41 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Simulated telephone In-Reply-To: <4C73EA73.3020308@netscape.net> References: <4C73EA73.3020308@netscape.net> Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008251117110.25710@linuxserv.home> On Tue, 24 Aug 2010, Jim Scheef wrote: > I would like to play^H^H^H^H use some of my vintage portables the way they > were intended. For example, the Radio Shack Model 100 and the HP 110 Portable > have 300bps internal modems. I have several other modems thru which these > machines could talk to a *NIX but I do not want to pay for multiple phone > lines in my home. How can I simulate a POTS connection between these modems? I'd use a cheap telephone system (PBX) with 8 or more private lines. Shouldn't cost you more than 50 EUR for an analogue-only system. If you are very lucky you may even get an ISDN one for not much more. Christian From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Wed Aug 25 08:22:30 2010 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2010 09:22:30 -0400 Subject: speeding up computers (was Re: Terminals...) In-Reply-To: <201008241439.o7OEdodT032147@billY.EZWIND.NET> References: <AANLkTinFops3Xw_cJhoLMY7Faiz25oBFTu0mMDkFBJHf@mail.gmail.com> <AANLkTinisr7uORmuRhmk4jxii9C=AQtJsKNXoqaZ4nfZ@mail.gmail.com> <020a01cb4335$2b4c75f0$0600000a@portajara> <4C73CF39.3080100@compsys.to> <201008241439.o7OEdodT032147@billY.EZWIND.NET> Message-ID: <4C751916.2080209@compsys.to> >John Foust wrote: >>At 08:55 AM 8/24/2010, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > > >>Can you make any suggestions as to how you have managed your Windows XP >>system over the years that would help me to avoid malware and virus problems? >> >Download and install the free Microsoft Security Essentials, their >antivirus / antispyware solution. Don't click on attachments. :-) > > Might you have a link? I am a complete dummy with Windows and I avoid it when I can. >The horrid ones these days are drive-by infections you catch from >web sites, and they blow right past most AV/AS solutions, on purpose. > > I am aware of that. I use my wife's system running Windows XP to initially download any files I need. Then, after I backup my Windows 98SE system, I download those few items which are too big to e-mail. When my wife was running Windows 2000, I had a connection over the router to move files back and forth. With Windows XP, my son says he is unable to make my wife's C: drive available even though I can still use the printer on my system to send stuff that I want printed while I am on my wife's system. Do you know of any way that I could establish a link over the router between my Windows 98SE system and the Windows XP system? Both system use FAT32 file structures, although that did not seem to matter when my wife used NTFS on the Windows 2000 system. By the way, my son is an expert on Windows XP and sets us up with a new system every 5 years or so. By the way, I requested FAT32 on the Windows XP system so that when I use Ghost during the backup, a text file is also created which logs the date and CRC value for each file in the backup image. On my present Windows 98SE system, that helps a lot. When I backup my wife's system once a month, that text file is created for her system as well. Ghost does not support that feature with NTFS. >>Also to reduce the base size of the system when I do a backup? On my present >>system, all of the files are about 2 GB and that compresses with Ghost to about >>1 GB which allows me to fit 4 months on one 4.7 GB DVD and keep the backup >>files at the end of each month. If I could even end up with just 4 GB of files on >>the Windows XP system which would fit on one DVD a month, that would be >>sufficient. >> >You don't have backup problems yet. Don't focus on the size of >the base or final Windows installation. If your system goes up in smoke, >you'll be reinstalling, and much of what's there comes from the >Windows Updates, so you don't really have it either way. > > The problem is that a reinstall would be so difficult that I want to avoid that if at all possible. I backup my wife's system once a month and it now works out to about 10 GB within 5 files - compressed with Ghost from about 16 GB not including the 2 GB swap file which Ghost ignores. Since my wife has 2 * 300 GB drives, there is a lot of room to hold the backups on one of the partitions. In fact, I almost always duplicate all of the data on each partition on the other drive. So there are almost always 2 copies of each file on separate physical drives. >If you only have ~300 meg of personal data, continue to use CDs or DVDs >for your files. Or switch to thumb drives. Four gig USB thumb drives >are $14 at Walmart. By January, the eight gig versions will be that >cheap (if they aren't already.) > > I would prefer to use 4.7 GB DVD-R blanks since they are now so inexpensive. If the 8 GB DVD-R blanks ever get down to the same cost per GB, that will be the better choice at that point. >Backup the entire system once in a while by imaging to an external >hard drive. One terabyte external hard drives are $63 these days. > > I already have 3 * 1 TB SATA II drives on my new Windows XP system, so there is sufficient storage. Again, all 3 drives will be identical so that each file will be there 3 times on 3 separate physical drives. I learned that requirement on the present Windows 98SE system where I started out with 3 * 40 GB drives. Within about 4 years, all 3 drives failed. Fortunately, they seemed to fail completely over a period of about a week. That was sufficient warning to backup the drive with the C: partition while it was still working. By that time, the 160 GB drives were so inexpensive they were used as the replacement even thought the BIOS can see only 130 GB on each drive. So I now have 3 times the hard drive storage I started with in 2002. When I upgraded from the 266 MHz Pentium in 2002, I had been used 2 * 1.2 GB Hitachi ESDI hard drive running Windows 95. >http://slickdeals.net/permadeal/38313/1tb-western-digital-elements-external-hard-drive > >Better yet, sign up for a cheap web-based backup service like Carbonite >and know you have an automatic off-site backup. > > My strong preference is to make a backup onsite. I realize that is old fashioned, but old habits from 1960s are still with me. Early on I realized the necessity of backups and have never been sorry I spend about 10% of my time making and verifying backups. In fact, that is one aspect that I insist on. Every backup file must be able to be read back to the system and checked. These days I usually use MD5 to verify. On the PDP-11 when I used the TK70 tape drive, the RT-11 program BUP was able to verify that the image file was identical to the disk files. There was no compression and each 32 MB RT-11 partition had to be backed up separately. It took about 7 min to perform the backup and almost the identical time to verify. Very early on, I found that the TK50 had to be discarded. Not only did the TK50 drive manage only one 32 MB RT-11 partition per the tape, for a backup, but the time to verify was much greater than an hour if the verify was tape vs disk. The few time that I used a TK50 for backup, I ended up performing a recovery back to a different RT-11 partition, then comparing the original RT-11 partition with the recovered partition. The TK70 tape drive was used until I switched to Ersatz-11 around 2002 at which point I had managed to acquire a SCSI host adapter and Sony SMO S-501 optical drives and MANY media. The Sony SMO S-501 optical drives were able to work under Ersatz-11 on the Windows 98SE system, so they were used to do the migration. Jerome Fine From jfoust at threedee.com Wed Aug 25 08:56:01 2010 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2010 08:56:01 -0500 Subject: speeding up computers (was Re: Terminals...) In-Reply-To: <4C751916.2080209@compsys.to> References: <AANLkTinFops3Xw_cJhoLMY7Faiz25oBFTu0mMDkFBJHf@mail.gmail.com> <AANLkTinisr7uORmuRhmk4jxii9C=AQtJsKNXoqaZ4nfZ@mail.gmail.com> <020a01cb4335$2b4c75f0$0600000a@portajara> <4C73CF39.3080100@compsys.to> <201008241439.o7OEdodT032147@billY.EZWIND.NET> <4C751916.2080209@compsys.to> Message-ID: <201008251356.o7PDu33Y088770@billY.EZWIND.NET> At 08:22 AM 8/25/2010, Jerome H. Fine wrote: >Might you have a link? I am a complete dummy with Windows and I avoid it >when I can. Google "mse", the first link is it. http://www.microsoft.com/security_essentials/ >Do you know of any way that I could establish a link over the router between my >Windows 98SE system and the Windows XP system? Yes, it's not hard to set up a (named) Windows Workgroup that would allow you to share folders or drives between the machines. >By the way, I requested FAT32 on the Windows XP system so that when I use >Ghost during the backup, I would recommend the default NTFS for a new system. FAT32 isn't optimal. >I already have 3 * 1 TB SATA II drives on my new Windows XP system, so there is >sufficient storage. Again, all 3 drives will be identical so that each file will be there 3 times on 3 separate physical drives. As a mirror RAID? Separate drives? Do a mirror RAID if you're worried about failing drives. And they do, of course. These days, simple RAID is free on the motherboard. Do a RAID 5 if you like. It's cheap these days. >My strong preference is to make a backup onsite. I realize that is old fashioned, >but old habits from 1960s are still with me. I have no problem with an onsite backup. Off-site is even better, even if you do it yourself. The web-based backup is easy, cheap and automatic. Cheap insurance. I have no problem with 1960s methods. On the other hand, you asked for common-sense Windows advice that might even rise to the level of household "best practices" and that's what I gave you. Burning to DVDs takes a lot of time, and my time isn't free. For a quick free and good backup, try Sync_Back. http://www.2brightsparks.com/downloads.html It'll schedule a backup, sync to an external hard drive, keep a log, verify, and run for years without a hiccup. Drive_XML is good, too. - John From silent700 at gmail.com Wed Aug 25 10:20:11 2010 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2010 10:20:11 -0500 Subject: Simulated telephone In-Reply-To: <AANLkTi=k9dBSV=LpG21RzqLXGpB4R5fe9t5ib+pe4pcD@mail.gmail.com> References: <4C73EA73.3020308@netscape.net> <4C741895.3040203@tdh.com> <AANLkTi=k9dBSV=LpG21RzqLXGpB4R5fe9t5ib+pe4pcD@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <AANLkTi=u8HgsOOqrq58c8st-Nrd+D=bttXjaJW0ibKt4@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Aug 24, 2010 at 2:54 PM, Jason T <silent700 at gmail.com> wrote: > There are a number of line simulators out there for POTS testing that > cost way more than they should. ?Another route is a small office PBX. > I have a Panasonic (model# not handy now but I can supply it later) Here ya go: http://search.ebay.com/110552293207 For when that link expires, it's a Panasonic KX-T30810 small office PBX. 3 outside lines, 8 internal (so you can have 8 modems talk to each other in the house) for $39.99. You'll need a Panasonic digital set like the KX-T1232xx or KX-T70xx to program it, but I believe out-of-the-box all the internals can dial each other. -- jht From legalize at xmission.com Wed Aug 25 11:11:41 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2010 10:11:41 -0600 Subject: Simulated telephone In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 25 Aug 2010 10:20:11 -0500. <AANLkTi=u8HgsOOqrq58c8st-Nrd+D=bttXjaJW0ibKt4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <E1OoIZh-0002BI-41@shell.xmission.com> I had no idea the small office PBX was so cheap now. I should get one of those for my phone-only terminals. In article <AANLkTi=u8HgsOOqrq58c8st-Nrd+D=bttXjaJW0ibKt4 at mail.gmail.com>, Jason T <silent700 at gmail.com> writes: > each other in the house) for $39.99. You'll need a Panasonic digital > set like the KX-T1232xx or KX-T70xx to program it, but I believe > out-of-the-box all the internals can dial each other. Will these do the job? ebay # 380262117910 Another $50, assuming you get minimum bid. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com/the-direct3d-graphics-pipeline/> Legalize Adulthood! <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com> From Arno_1983 at gmx.de Wed Aug 25 13:31:38 2010 From: Arno_1983 at gmx.de (Arno Kletzander) Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2010 20:31:38 +0200 Subject: Emulating a smart CRT display unit - ideas? Message-ID: <20100825183138.133280@gmx.net> Hello guys, thanks for your quick replies! "Chuck Guzis" <cclist at sydex.com> wrote: > why not post a note to this guy: > http://cncfanuc.blogspot.com/2009/04/fanuc-ac-servo-drive-system- > failure.html > Who seems to have a lot of information on his hands? You're joking, right? I don't even get what this guy is writing about in most of his half-finished malformed sentences. Even if he was willing to help, it might be quite a challenge to get anything useful out of him. > But you're going to need a fair level of detail on what actually goes > on over those 12 lines before you can get something going. That's provided in that latest manual I got, down to bit-level detail, e.g.: "Mode selection:" A A A D D D D D D D D D B B B B B B B B B B B B 2 1 0 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1 0 ----------------------- 0 0 1 1 x x 0 1 1 x x x Set bit mode* 0 0 1 1 x x 0 1 0 x x x Clear bit mode* 0 0 1 1 x x 1 1 1 x x x Enable drawing by +/- H/V inputs* 0 0 1 1 x x 1 0 1 x x x Clear screen (takes approx. 40 ms) Operations marked * are latching and clear upon next selection." Pages and pages of such codes. > If you want a dedicated unit, an FPGA might still be your best bet, > if you have the skills (VHDL or Verilog). No, I never learnt either of the above. OTOH, some LabView programming once again would be a nice change, and there is that FPGA toolkit for it that we were shown then. > Alternatively, many faster > microcontrollers can directly generate video using nothing but > software. Hey, that also sounds seriously interesting. Might be the cheapest and simplest approach since b&w doesn't need much of a DAC or anything. Alas the raster size doesn't map nicely to TV standards... I'm also still all ears for comments on the "uC preprocesses, PC displays" idea. Dave McGuire <mcguire at neurotica.com> wrote: > I have a vague memory of doing a hack to an IBM PC CGA card that > enabled interlacing for a huge improvement in the readability of > character-based output. It involved running a wire, and *I think* > replacing the 6845 with a 46505. Does anyone else know about this? This mode is not used here, the manual states that this display is non-interlacing. Yours sincerely, Arno Kletzander -- GRATIS f?r alle GMX-Mitglieder: Die maxdome Movie-FLAT! Jetzt freischalten unter http://portal.gmx.net/de/go/maxdome01 From cclist at sydex.com Wed Aug 25 13:55:45 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2010 11:55:45 -0700 Subject: Emulating a smart CRT display unit - ideas? In-Reply-To: <20100825183138.133280@gmx.net> References: <20100825183138.133280@gmx.net> Message-ID: <4C7504C1.1721.DF0ED8@cclist.sydex.com> On 25 Aug 2010 at 20:31, Arno Kletzander wrote: > I'm also still all ears for comments on the "uC preprocesses, PC > displays" idea. For a really nice VGA display, check out the PICASO from SparkFun. Coupled with a low-end microcontroller, that should give you pretty much everything that you need, save for the differential receivers. Google "VGA microcontroller" for other ideas. --Chuck From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Wed Aug 25 14:06:37 2010 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2010 21:06:37 +0200 Subject: PROMS but from what ? Message-ID: <FC5ED3B21D6845F18AA586F8C2FA7256@xp1800> I aquired a lot of small DIL14/16 PROMS ceramic package with a 8 digit number on it some of the numbers are : 2584 0821 2574 6975 2571 5418 2600 1529 1447 3581 1447 3540 2600 1495 1447 3797 2600 1487 2603 2623 2625 5562 2554 0888 2600 1495 I can't find any reference about them, so if some one recognizes the numbers or can use them let me know (I've a few hundreds of them) If no one wants them I'm going to archive them in the big metal bin. -Rik From binarydinosaurs at gmail.com Wed Aug 25 16:16:15 2010 From: binarydinosaurs at gmail.com (Adrian Graham) Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2010 22:16:15 +0100 Subject: Collection reduction, DEC list In-Reply-To: <4C73DA30.2080509@gmail.com> References: <AANLkTikUhNjxvauXqqJx2M+r47M1RrKKwsCP0dzpPO7r@mail.gmail.com> <4C73DA30.2080509@gmail.com> Message-ID: <AANLkTinJ=mEQEcWfa1LOR_ryZ6tGvJoDzSfiPyrFhRv+@mail.gmail.com> On 24 August 2010 15:41, Jules Richardson <jules.richardson99 at gmail.com> wrote: > Urgh. Collection thinning-out is quite soul destroying. BTDT... I'm hoping it's therapeutic, there's things in there that really are of no interest to anyone I'd have thought, though I know that's horribly subjective! Hells, most of the 'middling' Macs I'll not expect any takers for - LCII anyone? IIvx? Quadras? Thought not. > As nobody's asked it yet, is any of this stuff "important" just because of > where it was used (and/or what might be on some of the disks)? I seem to > remember you've got a few "interesting" things like that in your collection, > but don't recall if it extends to the DEC stuff. Nothing of importance like that in the DEC stuff, it's all either machines I've used at work (uVAXii, VAX3400, 2 of the alpha 3000-400s, multia, infoserver, VXT2000, DS5000-240 etc), things I've rescued from what was at the time the 'next stop: bin' corridor at DEC Park in Reading or things current work were going to throw out. > And no VT220s? What the heck's wrong with you!? :-P There's at least one in there but I'm keeping it, also the VT100 and GIGI :) cheers, -- adrian/witchy Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest home? computer collection? www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Wed Aug 25 16:44:10 2010 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2010 22:44:10 +0100 Subject: Collection reduction, DEC list In-Reply-To: <AANLkTinJ=mEQEcWfa1LOR_ryZ6tGvJoDzSfiPyrFhRv+@mail.gmail.com> References: <AANLkTikUhNjxvauXqqJx2M+r47M1RrKKwsCP0dzpPO7r@mail.gmail.com> <4C73DA30.2080509@gmail.com> <AANLkTinJ=mEQEcWfa1LOR_ryZ6tGvJoDzSfiPyrFhRv+@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <00a701cb449e$a842e930$f8c8bb90$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Adrian Graham > Sent: 25 August 2010 22:16 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Collection reduction, DEC list > > On 24 August 2010 15:41, Jules Richardson > <jules.richardson99 at gmail.com> wrote: > > > Urgh. Collection thinning-out is quite soul destroying. BTDT... > > I'm hoping it's therapeutic, there's things in there that really are > of no interest to anyone I'd have thought, though I know that's > horribly subjective! Hells, most of the 'middling' Macs I'll not > expect any takers for - LCII anyone? IIvx? Quadras? Thought not. > > > As nobody's asked it yet, is any of this stuff "important" just > because of > > where it was used (and/or what might be on some of the disks)? I seem > to > > remember you've got a few "interesting" things like that in your > collection, > > but don't recall if it extends to the DEC stuff. > > Nothing of importance like that in the DEC stuff, it's all either > machines I've used at work (uVAXii, VAX3400, 2 of the alpha 3000-400s, > multia, infoserver, VXT2000, DS5000-240 etc), things I've rescued from > what was at the time the 'next stop: bin' corridor at DEC Park in > Reading or things current work were going to throw out. > > > And no VT220s? What the heck's wrong with you!? :-P > > There's at least one in there but I'm keeping it, also the VT100 and > GIGI :) Darn! I'd really like a VT100! Thankfully I do have a VT220. > > cheers, > > -- > adrian/witchy > Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest home? computer collection? > www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 25 16:48:51 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2010 22:48:51 +0100 (BST) Subject: Simulated telephone In-Reply-To: <E1Oo91m-0000c7-78@shell.xmission.com> from "Richard" at Aug 25, 10 00:00:02 am Message-ID: <m1OoNq2-000J48C@p850ug1> > > > In article <20100825002826.GA14137 at n0jcf.net>, > Chris Elmquist <chrise at pobox.com> writes: > > > (actually the model TLS-4, which a friend loned to me) I have a > > collection of acoustic coupled terminal devices and modems here > > [...] > > Do tell! > > As a fellow terminal freak, I'd love to hear what kind of acoustic > coupled terminal devices you have! I am not a terminal fanatic, but I have a couple of somewhat unusual accoustically-coupled devices. The first (and I suspect more common) is a portable thermal prinitng terminal (no, not a Silent 700) with an accoustic coupler on the back. I've never used the coupler, there is also an RS232 socket which I have used... The second isn't a terminal, it's an EPROM programemr (!). It appears to have been used by some company's field service to download and program ROMs on-site. A bopx with the accoustic cups on top, a few control switches and a ZIF socket. I really must make a phone line simulator and/or a telephone exchange... > > My plan is to do something very similar to what you've done: connect > the terminals to a terminal server and then have hosts reachable from > that. It never occured to me to have vintage hosts running in > emulators on a PC, though, what a great idea! It really completes the > vintage experience. Imparting that vintage terminal experience is Siurel to _complete_ the vintage experience you should have the real vintage host (and not an emulator) running on the other end of the line. That's what I would do. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 25 16:22:09 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2010 22:22:09 +0100 (BST) Subject: Emulating a smart CRT display unit - ideas? In-Reply-To: <FF6AB92D97A23A409701CDBF66F03FCD03DC3E6EFC@505fuji> from "Ian King" at Aug 24, 10 05:26:39 pm Message-ID: <m1OoNQC-000J3yC@p850ug1> > Your description reminded me of the 6847, a less capable but highly integra= > ted variant on the 6845. =20 Other than them both being made by Motorola, and both being CRT display-related, I am wondering in what sense the 6847 is a variant of the 6845. The latter is the video timing chain only, the former contials a video timing chain (whicu you don;t ahve to use...), but it's more the character generator, colour ecoding stuff, dot shift register, etc. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 25 16:59:31 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2010 22:59:31 +0100 (BST) Subject: Should you correct production mistakes? Message-ID: <m1OoO0M-000J49C@p850ug1> When you are cleaning up and restoring a piece of classic computer hardware, would you correct any minor mistakes made in the original production? I have a particular exmaple in mind. In bits on myu bench at the moment is an HP2623 graphics terminal This was HP's response to the well-knwon Tektronix terminals, it is, however a raster scanned device. But it has a little state machine (or parhapes you could call it a very simple procesosr) to speed up line drawing. But wanyway... On the video monitor PCB (HP call it the 'Sweep' PCB), there is a 74LS221 dual monostable chip in the common HP horixontal drive circuit, The first half of the chip delays the sync pulse (and the delay time is controlled by the horizontal centering control), the second half is triggered from that and provides a pulse of known width to the horizontal drive transistor. But I digress. You don't need to know any of that... WHile cleaning the dirt off this PCB (HV attracts dust electrostatcally, of couse), I noticed that the ground pin of this IC never made it through the board. It's folded under the package, but has been effectively surface-mount soldered to the pad when the board was wave-soldered. It works, but I can't beeleive it's as good as a proper through-hole connection, and it's certian;y not what was intended. I could trivially desolder the IC, straighten the pin, and solder it back properly. But should I? What would others do? -tony From oltmansg at bellsouth.net Wed Aug 25 17:10:25 2010 From: oltmansg at bellsouth.net (geoffrey oltmans) Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2010 15:10:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Should you correct production mistakes? In-Reply-To: <m1OoO0M-000J49C@p850ug1> References: <m1OoO0M-000J49C@p850ug1> Message-ID: <305719.49138.qm@web83910.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> If it's working, I'd probably leave well enough alone and make a mental note of it in case something happened that it could have had an effect on. ________________________________ From: Tony Duell <ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Sent: Wed, August 25, 2010 4:59:31 PM Subject: Should you correct production mistakes? When you are cleaning up and restoring a piece of classic computer hardware, would you correct any minor mistakes made in the original production? I have a particular exmaple in mind. In bits on myu bench at the moment is an HP2623 graphics terminal This was HP's response to the well-knwon Tektronix terminals, it is, however a raster scanned device. But it has a little state machine (or parhapes you could call it a very simple procesosr) to speed up line drawing. But wanyway... On the video monitor PCB (HP call it the 'Sweep' PCB), there is a 74LS221 dual monostable chip in the common HP horixontal drive circuit, The first half of the chip delays the sync pulse (and the delay time is controlled by the horizontal centering control), the second half is triggered from that and provides a pulse of known width to the horizontal drive transistor. But I digress. You don't need to know any of that... WHile cleaning the dirt off this PCB (HV attracts dust electrostatcally, of couse), I noticed that the ground pin of this IC never made it through the board. It's folded under the package, but has been effectively surface-mount soldered to the pad when the board was wave-soldered. It works, but I can't beeleive it's as good as a proper through-hole connection, and it's certian;y not what was intended. I could trivially desolder the IC, straighten the pin, and solder it back properly. But should I? What would others do? -tony From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Aug 25 17:29:53 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2010 16:29:53 -0600 Subject: Should you correct production mistakes? In-Reply-To: <m1OoO0M-000J49C@p850ug1> References: <m1OoO0M-000J49C@p850ug1> Message-ID: <4C759961.9080807@brouhaha.com> Tony Duell wrote: > I could trivially desolder the IC, straighten the pin, and solder it back > properly. But should I? What would others do? Had we found any problem analogous to that in the PDP-1 restoration, where the machine operated correctly despite a manufacturing defect, I'm sure we would have had a debate on whether to fix it. I think my own opinion in that case would be that we should leave it alone, but tag the module (paper tag attached with a short loop of string) and document the issue in the system logbook. For something that isn't considered a museum artifact, I'd be more inclined to fix it. When we do fix PDP-1 modules, we mark the replaced components and log that as well. Since the component marking is intended to indicate that the component is not original, if we were just correcting an improperly installed component, we probably wouldn't mark it, but would still log it. Eric (not speaking for the PDP-1 Restoration Team or the Computer History Museum) From rich.cini at verizon.net Wed Aug 25 17:53:27 2010 From: rich.cini at verizon.net (Richard Cini) Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2010 18:53:27 -0400 Subject: Simulated telephone In-Reply-To: <4C741895.3040203@tdh.com> Message-ID: <C89B1727.405A7%rich.cini@verizon.net> For my BBS project using the N8VEM, I used a TalkSwitch PBX. Downside to that is it's Touch-Tone only. I've also used a decommissioned Panasonic PBX (I forget the model number) with 24 station lines and 8 CO lines. I used this setup with everything from the PMMI modem on my IMSAI to modems of Commodore and Apple vintage. Works like a charm. On 8/24/10 3:08 PM, "Michael Lee" <mikelee at tdh.com> wrote: > PBX Simulators, different makes and models out there and while currently > it appears the ones on ebay cost more than it would new, they can > usually be obtained for a reasonable cost. The models I've used have a > handful of POTS jacks, 4 or 8 of them, and it gives basic tone and dial, > you just dial 1 for POTS 1, etc. > > > > > On 8/24/2010 10:51 AM, Jim Scheef wrote: >> Hello all, >> >> I would like to play^H^H^H^H use some of my vintage portables the way >> they were intended. For example, the Radio Shack Model 100 and the HP >> 110 Portable have 300bps internal modems. I have several other modems >> thru which these machines could talk to a *NIX but I do not want to >> pay for multiple phone lines in my home. How can I simulate a POTS >> connection between these modems? I don't need a dial tone or ringing, >> etc., as I can just tell one machine to connect and the other to >> answer. Way back I heard that a few modems would work if the tip and >> ring wires of the modems were crossed and connected, but most need >> something more than that. Is there some simple circuit I could build? >> Surely I'm not the first to want to avoid phone bills for such >> play^H^H^H^H testing. >> >> Jim Rich -- Rich Cini Collector of Classic Computers Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator http://www.altair32.com http://www.classiccmp.org/cini From shoppa at trailing-edge.com Wed Aug 25 17:57:40 2010 From: shoppa at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2010 18:57:40 -0400 Subject: Should you correct production mistakes? Message-ID: <20100825225740.094781E0234@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Eric writes: > Tony Duell wrote: >> I could trivially desolder the IC, straighten the pin, and solder it back >> properly. But should I? What would others do? > Had we found any problem analogous to that in the PDP-1 restoration, > where the machine operated correctly despite a manufacturing defect, I'm > sure we would have had a debate on whether to fix it. I think my own > opinion in that case would be that we should leave it alone, but tag the > module (paper tag attached with a short loop of string) and document the > issue in the system logbook. > For something that isn't considered a museum artifact, I'd be more > inclined to fix it. Whatever happened to "if it ain't broke, don't fix it"? The ability of a robust assembly and QA process to result in working systems, despite small manufacturing errors, is remarkable. If the board passed QC and was released into the wild and is still working decades later, that is a fact worth noting but I see zero reason to correct it. I don't doubt anyone's soldering skill but there is still a small and nonzero chance that any attempted "fix" would result in hassles. When I was in college decades ago, I got to help a civil engineer who had tried to build a Heathkit maybe 10 years before that but never got it working. I looked inside, found a few diodes he had reversed, and said that was the reason. He looked at me incredulously: "You mean a couple of incorrectly assembled parts will stop the whole receiver from working?". Yep. "If we designed bridges that way, there wouldn't be a single bridge standing in the world!" Tim. From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Aug 25 18:09:17 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2010 16:09:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Should you correct production mistakes? In-Reply-To: <m1OoO0M-000J49C@p850ug1> References: <m1OoO0M-000J49C@p850ug1> Message-ID: <20100825160121.H55530@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 25 Aug 2010, Tony Duell wrote: > I could trivially desolder the IC, straighten the pin, and solder it back > properly. But should I? What would others do? If you care about the machine, of course! I did on an IBM MDA board. If you don't care about using the machine, and are collecting based on resale value, rarity, provenance, then maybe not. Although such things do NOT have the artificial rarity and inflated value that a misprinted stamp does, if the computer has a particularly unique history, then it might be worth saving for that - "Woz mis-soldered this chip" kind of crap. Since "all science is either physics or stamp-collecting", which of those YOU are doing, could determine whether repairs, or even modifications, are appropriate. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Aug 25 18:13:59 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2010 16:13:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Should you correct production mistakes? In-Reply-To: <4C759961.9080807@brouhaha.com> References: <m1OoO0M-000J49C@p850ug1> <4C759961.9080807@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <20100825161037.E55530@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 25 Aug 2010, Eric Smith wrote: > Had we found any problem analogous to that in the PDP-1 restoration, > where the machine operated correctly despite a manufacturing defect, I'm > sure we would have had a debate on whether to fix it. I think my own > opinion in that case would be that we should leave it alone, but tag the > module (paper tag attached with a short loop of string) and document the > issue in the system logbook. In the example that I mentioned of an IBM MDA board, it worked for about 10 years, and then became intermittent. Even that, I would NOT consider to be "operates correctly", as the particular defect IS a defect, and may eventually bring the system down. From legalize at xmission.com Wed Aug 25 18:16:25 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2010 17:16:25 -0600 Subject: ebay dec modules catalog Message-ID: <E1OoPCj-0005q1-Aq@shell.xmission.com> item # 280552484706 -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com/the-direct3d-graphics-pipeline/> Legalize Adulthood! <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com> From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Aug 25 18:20:53 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2010 17:20:53 -0600 Subject: Should you correct production mistakes? In-Reply-To: <20100825161037.E55530@shell.lmi.net> References: <m1OoO0M-000J49C@p850ug1> <4C759961.9080807@brouhaha.com> <20100825161037.E55530@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4C75A555.5010502@brouhaha.com> I wrote: > Had we found any problem analogous to that in the PDP-1 restoration, > where the machine operated correctly despite a manufacturing defect, I'm > sure we would have had a debate on whether to fix it. I think my own > opinion in that case would be that we should leave it alone, but tag the > module (paper tag attached with a short loop of string) and document the > issue in the system logbook. Fred Cisin wrote: > In the example that I mentioned of an IBM MDA board, it worked for about > 10 years, and then became intermittent. Even that, I would NOT consider > to be "operates correctly", as the particular defect IS a defect, and may > eventually bring the system down. I think the way that I would state it is that just because the system is working correctly (at the moment) doesn't mean that it isn't broken. Part of the reason I don't think we'd fix such a problem in the PDP-1 is that the PDP-1 isn't doing anything criticial. We can afford to have downtime if a latent problem eventual causes a failure. If we've properly documented that latent problem, we can check for it when the system does fail, and fix it if necessary at that time. Eric From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Aug 25 18:34:01 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2010 16:34:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Should you correct production mistakes? In-Reply-To: <4C75A555.5010502@brouhaha.com> References: <m1OoO0M-000J49C@p850ug1> <4C759961.9080807@brouhaha.com> <20100825161037.E55530@shell.lmi.net> <4C75A555.5010502@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <20100825162540.E55530@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 25 Aug 2010, Eric Smith wrote: > I think the way that I would state it is that just because the system is > working correctly (at the moment) doesn't mean that it isn't broken. > > Part of the reason I don't think we'd fix such a problem in the PDP-1 is > that the PDP-1 isn't doing anything criticial. We can afford to have > downtime if a latent problem eventual causes a failure. If we've > properly documented that latent problem, we can check for it when the > system does fail, and fix it if necessary at that time. Your ability to tolerate downtime is significant, as also is your thorough documentation, so that the repair won't end up in the hands of board swappers. Y'know, it would be fun to see an entire set of exhibits explicitly about failure modes. Remember the HUH S100 boards for the TRS80, where one of the entire early production runs was reversed, but could be used by soldering all of the components to the back side of the board? -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From lproven at gmail.com Wed Aug 25 18:57:51 2010 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2010 00:57:51 +0100 Subject: speeding up computers (was Re: Terminals...) In-Reply-To: <4C737706.6217.60562B@cclist.sydex.com> References: <AANLkTinFops3Xw_cJhoLMY7Faiz25oBFTu0mMDkFBJHf@mail.gmail.com> <4C73CF39.3080100@compsys.to> <20100824141628.GA31995@Update.UU.SE> <4C737706.6217.60562B@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <AANLkTi=QB_M3qAeMK6UiRnj+th7N+ayrNSdry-g9XW51@mail.gmail.com> On 24 August 2010 15:38, Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> wrote: > On 24 Aug 2010 at 16:16, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > >> Check out xplite, I have not tried it myself, but heard some good >> about it. >> >> http://www.litepc.com/ >> >> Not sure how it works with windows update though.. if it affects it at >> all. > > XPLite gets a big <shrug> from me. ?It fronts XP's control panel's > add/remove Windows components and settings, No, it doesn't. Virtually none of the functionality is in common. Control Panel /hides/ components; XPLite ensures they were never installed in the first place. > deletes update rollback > and temp files mostly. ?All of which can be accomplished manually. Utter piffle. I think you are thinking of some other program. XPlite is a tool that you use to create custom XP install CDs. It does not and cannot and does not even try to do anything at all to an installed system. It enables you to (say) take an XP install CD with no service packs, slipstream SP3 into it, remove IE, OE, WMP, MSN, Messenger, Movie Maker & all the other crapware, pre-load a licence key, put the OS on C:, the programs on D: and the user data on E:, set it for your country and keyboard, remove all the other languages, and then creates an ISO for you to burn which will allow you to install a custom system non-interactively. It is a brilliant tool. I don't know what you're attempting to describe but you are thinking of something entirely different. Perhaps you're thinking of 98Lite for Windows 98, which was both capable of performing stripped-down installations and of removing some components from an installed 98 system - but far fewer than a clean install. > What I wish it would do: ?Automate moving key files to other > partitions It does. > and prune the registry of unnecessary entries. Don't even know what that's mean to mean, really, but if you remove all the accessories and Internet clients from the Windows installation CD, then their registry entries never get created in the first place. Me, I just use TinyXP r9. It's on all the torrent indices. It's a custom distro of XP SP3 with most of the crap removed for you; you can choose whether you want IE/OE/WMP or not, a "bare" install with no accessories at all, and whether you want a collection of drivers preloaded. It's great. I run it in a VirtualBox VM under Ubuntu/64. The bare install took <9min from bootup of the VM to finished system, ran in 40MB of RAM and shifted like greased lightning. Even with drivers, tuning, updates & antivirus, it takes only ~70MB of RAM. For XP, that's nothing. -- Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From lproven at gmail.com Wed Aug 25 18:59:16 2010 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2010 00:59:16 +0100 Subject: speeding up computers (was Re: Terminals...) In-Reply-To: <20100824145853.GA2064@Update.UU.SE> References: <AANLkTinFops3Xw_cJhoLMY7Faiz25oBFTu0mMDkFBJHf@mail.gmail.com> <4C73CF39.3080100@compsys.to> <20100824141628.GA31995@Update.UU.SE> <4C737706.6217.60562B@cclist.sydex.com> <20100824145853.GA2064@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <AANLkTikaVstGUt5XA7=WG7rCQiecCF57uYy-reM5UOFf@mail.gmail.com> On 24 August 2010 15:58, Pontus Pihlgren <pontus at update.uu.se> wrote: > On Tue, Aug 24, 2010 at 07:38:46AM -0700, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> XPLite gets a big <shrug> from me. ?It fronts XP's control panel's >> add/remove Windows components and settings, deletes update rollback >> and temp files mostly. ?All of which can be accomplished manually. > > Hmm, it boasts being able to remove Internet Explorer and other things > that comes by default. The home page says: > > "The latest developments in XPLite now see clean installations of > Windows XP in under 350MB" > > Which is somewhat missleading, you have to make a full installation > first and then remove stuff using xplite. No, you don't. That is not how it works. It builds custom install CD images /and nothing else./ It is unwise to pontificate on subjects where you are not certain of your facts. -- Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From lproven at gmail.com Wed Aug 25 19:01:47 2010 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2010 01:01:47 +0100 Subject: speeding up computers (was Re: Terminals...) In-Reply-To: <4C73CF39.3080100@compsys.to> References: <AANLkTinFops3Xw_cJhoLMY7Faiz25oBFTu0mMDkFBJHf@mail.gmail.com> <AANLkTinisr7uORmuRhmk4jxii9C=AQtJsKNXoqaZ4nfZ@mail.gmail.com> <020a01cb4335$2b4c75f0$0600000a@portajara> <4C73CF39.3080100@compsys.to> Message-ID: <AANLkTimiDBAsD_5GNJFxMra4CO5z9QkZb9iOUXr8yJ-H@mail.gmail.com> On 24 August 2010 14:55, Jerome H. Fine <jhfinedp3k at compsys.to> wrote: >>Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > >>> The real problem is windows. ?They load it up with bloat so that you >>> need a faster processor and more memory, then drop support for older >>> versions that didn't do so much crud. ?The end result is that you're >>> forced into upgrading to a slower operating system (that is, it's >>> doing more) at the same time you're upgrading to faster hardware. >> >> Am I the only one here who uses windows XP and windows 2000 for a LONG >> time (without reformatting) and everything works? :oO > > I am just about to upgrade from Windows 98SE (used since 2002) to a Windows > XP > system. ?I want to use Windows XP to run exactly the same 2 applications as > the > current system (750 MHz PIII), i.e. Netscape 7.2 and Ersatz-11. > > I am about to install Netscape on the Windows XP system since I want to drag > along > all of the old archives (more than 10 years of e-mails and Usenet). Netscape 7.2 was horrible when it was current and it is ancient now. Do yourself a favour, update to SeaMonkey. It's the same codebase, but a decade more polished, and it uses the same file formats for mail/news as Netscape Communicator, the old Mozilla suite and Thunderbird. The reason being that it's the latest version of the same code as Netscape 7.x and Mozilla Suite. -- Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From lproven at gmail.com Wed Aug 25 19:10:27 2010 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2010 01:10:27 +0100 Subject: speeding up computers (was Re: Terminals...) In-Reply-To: <4C751916.2080209@compsys.to> References: <AANLkTinFops3Xw_cJhoLMY7Faiz25oBFTu0mMDkFBJHf@mail.gmail.com> <AANLkTinisr7uORmuRhmk4jxii9C=AQtJsKNXoqaZ4nfZ@mail.gmail.com> <020a01cb4335$2b4c75f0$0600000a@portajara> <4C73CF39.3080100@compsys.to> <201008241439.o7OEdodT032147@billY.EZWIND.NET> <4C751916.2080209@compsys.to> Message-ID: <AANLkTin2YAX_bBnC8XUMP7G4boLZ_WiCdHA_Os7TKJAw@mail.gmail.com> On 25 August 2010 14:22, Jerome H. Fine <jhfinedp3k at compsys.to> wrote: > With Windows > XP, > my son says he is unable to make my wife's C: drive available even though I > can still > use the printer on my system to send stuff that I want printed while I am on > my wife's > system. I see no reason why this shouldn't work. The #1 most common gotcha is that whilst a standalone XP box can have user accounts with blank passwords, you can't use network sharing to or from XP if the user accounts in question have no password. You *must* set a password and it must be the same on both ends. Ensure 98 is entirely up to date; there was a patch for it to enable encrypted SMB connections, which IIRC is what XP uses by default. There is still an ancient version of Windows Update for 98, I think, & you can also download a very handy 3rd-party "service pack" for 98 which rolls up all the MS updates ever released for it. > Do you know of any way that I could establish a link over the router between > my > Windows 98SE system and the Windows XP system? Share drive on 1 machine. Connect to it from the other. Ensure that both have matching user account names and passwords. For interop with 98, this means: * single-word username with no spaces or punctuation, <10char * single-word computer name with no spaces or punctuation, <10char * 98 only allows one user "account", so make sure you know what name & password is being used * create an account with the same name and password on XP. If you're connecting from 98 to XP, the account need merely exist; you don't need to be that user. If you're connecting from XP to 98, you must be logged in as the account that is currently in use on the 98 end. > ?Both system use FAT32 > file structures, although that did not seem to matter when my wife used NTFS > on the Windows 2000 system. ?By the way, my son is an expert on Windows XP > and sets us up with a new system every 5 years or so. With all due respect, he doesn't all that expert to me; this stuff is not hard to get working. Even 3-4y ago I was meeting "IT professionals" who had never seen a version of Windows older than XP, and had no clue how to do anything at all on any OS other than XP. It may be that your son knows nothing about 98 & how it works. > By the way, I requested FAT32 on the Windows XP system so that when I use > Ghost during the backup, a text file is also created which logs the date and > CRC > value for each file in the backup image. ?On my present Windows 98SE system, > that helps a lot. ?When I backup my wife's system once a month, that text > file > is created for her system as well. ?Ghost does not support that feature with > NTFS. [Shrug] I wouldn't know, I rarely use it. Me, I have a 32MB FAT16 primary boot drive with DOS on it on all my desktop PCs. Then you can run DOS apps from an actual live booted-off-the-HD copy of DOS and they can write whatever logfiles they like on there. XP is perfectly happy to boot off a honking great NTFS volume in an extended partition; it just writes a couple of boot files to the primary DOS FAT drive. -- Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From ajp166 at verizon.net Wed Aug 25 19:10:20 2010 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2010 20:10:20 -0400 Subject: Should you correct production mistakes? In-Reply-To: <20100825162540.E55530@shell.lmi.net> References: <m1OoO0M-000J49C@p850ug1> <4C759961.9080807@brouhaha.com> <20100825161037.E55530@shell.lmi.net> <4C75A555.5010502@brouhaha.com> <20100825162540.E55530@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4C75B0EC.50402@verizon.net> On 08/25/2010 07:34 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Wed, 25 Aug 2010, Eric Smith wrote: > >> I think the way that I would state it is that just because the system is >> working correctly (at the moment) doesn't mean that it isn't broken. >> >> Part of the reason I don't think we'd fix such a problem in the PDP-1 is >> that the PDP-1 isn't doing anything criticial. We can afford to have >> downtime if a latent problem eventual causes a failure. If we've >> properly documented that latent problem, we can check for it when the >> system does fail, and fix it if necessary at that time. >> > Your ability to tolerate downtime is significant, as also is your thorough > documentation, so that the repair won't end up in the hands of board > swappers. > > > Y'know, it would be fun to see an entire set of exhibits explicitly about > failure modes. Remember the HUH S100 boards for the TRS80, where one of > the entire early production runs was reversed, but could be used by > soldering all of the components to the back side of the board? > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com > > I have a different take on it. What is the breakage? If it's failure is intermittent and CANNOT result in damage I'd class that as minor and leave it. But document it! If the failure could do minor damage but easily repaired It would required evaluation and a decision. Document the problem and actions taken or not taken. It's a intermediate concern If the failure can result if significant damage or unrepairable damage or the possibly of severe damage. Repair or mitigation should be applied to prevent that. Document the mitigations/repairs and all the supporting decisions. This is a major concern as it can render the machine useless inert mass or possibly worse. The minor could be a gate with a transistor that has compromised characteristics. This has historical value. Intermediate could be a core driver that threatens to burn up a sense inhibit line making for a difficult and time consuming core repair. Major could be a power supply that fails and goes over-voltage enough to destroy whole sections. Or a situation like PDP-15 had where there was a fan failure that could result in un-contained fire. At the extreme this is a hazard to people and other artifacts. At best it will result in the population of working machines to very few or zero. A great loss. I have not specified how the modification or repair is done only the process leading to it. Something rare and hard to find spares for repair should have all efforts made to do so in a reasonable way. Safety should never be compromised. Allison From silent700 at gmail.com Wed Aug 25 19:17:49 2010 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2010 19:17:49 -0500 Subject: Simulated telephone In-Reply-To: <E1OoIZh-0002BI-41@shell.xmission.com> References: <AANLkTi=u8HgsOOqrq58c8st-Nrd+D=bttXjaJW0ibKt4@mail.gmail.com> <E1OoIZh-0002BI-41@shell.xmission.com> Message-ID: <AANLkTim1uo2nA8hudzpqN4K+piGm9Rak7WX6jmvMPt2R@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Aug 25, 2010 at 11:11 AM, Richard <legalize at xmission.com> wrote: > Will these do the job? ebay # 380262117910 > > Another $50, assuming you get minimum bid. I see $20, and that's a whole set! The 7050 should do it for programming. These guys claim to have software (for DOS on early Windows, apparently.) I've never tried it: http://www.pbxsoftware.com/winprog/index.shtml From lbickley at bickleywest.com Wed Aug 25 19:20:22 2010 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2010 17:20:22 -0700 Subject: Should you correct production mistakes? In-Reply-To: <4C75A555.5010502@brouhaha.com> References: <m1OoO0M-000J49C@p850ug1> <20100825161037.E55530@shell.lmi.net> <4C75A555.5010502@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <201008251720.23153.lbickley@bickleywest.com> On Wednesday 25 August 2010, Eric Smith wrote: > I wrote: > > Had we found any problem analogous to that in the PDP-1 restoration, > > where the machine operated correctly despite a manufacturing defect, I'm > > sure we would have had a debate on whether to fix it. I think my own > > opinion in that case would be that we should leave it alone, but tag the > > module (paper tag attached with a short loop of string) and document the > > issue in the system logbook. > > > Fred Cisin wrote: > > In the example that I mentioned of an IBM MDA board, it worked for about > > 10 years, and then became intermittent. Even that, I would NOT consider > > to be "operates correctly", as the particular defect IS a defect, and may > > eventually bring the system down. > > I think the way that I would state it is that just because the system is > working correctly (at the moment) doesn't mean that it isn't broken. > > Part of the reason I don't think we'd fix such a problem in the PDP-1 is > that the PDP-1 isn't doing anything criticial. We can afford to have > downtime if a latent problem eventual causes a failure. If we've > properly documented that latent problem, we can check for it when the > system does fail, and fix it if necessary at that time. To be specific, during the original restoration, we checked every solder joint in the PDP-1. We found four bad connections. We then reviewed the implications of the bad connections in terms of function and reliability. The Team decided to only repair two of the connections because they could affect normal operation and demoing of the system. We left the other connections "loose". As Eric already stated, we documented everything and labeled all changes (fixes) we made. BTW: We have never experienced a problem with the "unfixed" solder joints ;-) Cheers, Lyle -- Lyle Bickley, AF6WS Bickley Consulting West Inc. http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From cclist at sydex.com Wed Aug 25 19:23:28 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2010 17:23:28 -0700 Subject: speeding up computers (was Re: Terminals...) In-Reply-To: <AANLkTi=QB_M3qAeMK6UiRnj+th7N+ayrNSdry-g9XW51@mail.gmail.com> References: <AANLkTinFops3Xw_cJhoLMY7Faiz25oBFTu0mMDkFBJHf@mail.gmail.com>, <4C737706.6217.60562B@cclist.sydex.com>, <AANLkTi=QB_M3qAeMK6UiRnj+th7N+ayrNSdry-g9XW51@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4C755190.23905.20B1637@cclist.sydex.com> On 26 Aug 2010 at 0:57, Liam Proven wrote: > XPlite is a tool that you use to create custom XP install CDs. It does > not and cannot and does not even try to do anything at all to an > installed system. We must have a Python "Cole Porter" episode here. XPLite as I have it is from http://www.litepc.com/ (I'm currently using XPLite 1.9). It does nothing to create an installation CD. So who's *your* Cole Porter? --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Wed Aug 25 19:28:41 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2010 17:28:41 -0700 Subject: speeding up computers (was Re: Terminals...) In-Reply-To: <AANLkTin2YAX_bBnC8XUMP7G4boLZ_WiCdHA_Os7TKJAw@mail.gmail.com> References: <AANLkTinFops3Xw_cJhoLMY7Faiz25oBFTu0mMDkFBJHf@mail.gmail.com>, <4C751916.2080209@compsys.to>, <AANLkTin2YAX_bBnC8XUMP7G4boLZ_WiCdHA_Os7TKJAw@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4C7552C9.12148.20FDE37@cclist.sydex.com> On 26 Aug 2010 at 1:10, Liam Proven wrote: > The #1 most common gotcha is that whilst a standalone XP box can have > user accounts with blank passwords, you can't use network sharing to > or from XP if the user accounts in question have no password. You > *must* set a password and it must be the same on both ends. Piffle. I do it all the time. Here's how: [Start] [Run] Type gpedit.msc and click [OK] Navigate to Computer Configuration / Windows Settings / Security Settings / Local Policies / Security Options Double click on Accounts: Limit local account use of blank passwords to console login only. Select the radio button next to Disabled and click [OK] --Chuck From lproven at gmail.com Wed Aug 25 19:40:15 2010 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2010 01:40:15 +0100 Subject: speeding up computers (was Re: Terminals...) In-Reply-To: <4C755190.23905.20B1637@cclist.sydex.com> References: <AANLkTinFops3Xw_cJhoLMY7Faiz25oBFTu0mMDkFBJHf@mail.gmail.com> <4C737706.6217.60562B@cclist.sydex.com> <AANLkTi=QB_M3qAeMK6UiRnj+th7N+ayrNSdry-g9XW51@mail.gmail.com> <4C755190.23905.20B1637@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <AANLkTimm=u2vEZEXFwA5hdf_anvr55PN59s0F5YJYTr2@mail.gmail.com> On 26 August 2010 01:23, Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> wrote: > On 26 Aug 2010 at 0:57, Liam Proven wrote: > >> XPlite is a tool that you use to create custom XP install CDs. It does >> not and cannot and does not even try to do anything at all to an >> installed system. > > We must have a Python "Cole Porter" episode here. > > XPLite as I have it is from http://www.litepc.com/ ?(I'm currently > using XPLite 1.9). ?It does nothing to create an installation CD. > > So who's *your* ?Cole Porter? Humble apologies. I have got my wires crossed. I was thinking of nLite: http://www.nliteos.com/ -- Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Wed Aug 25 19:54:39 2010 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2010 20:54:39 -0400 Subject: speeding up computers (was Re: Terminals...) In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimiDBAsD_5GNJFxMra4CO5z9QkZb9iOUXr8yJ-H@mail.gmail.com> References: <AANLkTinFops3Xw_cJhoLMY7Faiz25oBFTu0mMDkFBJHf@mail.gmail.com> <AANLkTinisr7uORmuRhmk4jxii9C=AQtJsKNXoqaZ4nfZ@mail.gmail.com> <020a01cb4335$2b4c75f0$0600000a@portajara> <4C73CF39.3080100@compsys.to> <AANLkTimiDBAsD_5GNJFxMra4CO5z9QkZb9iOUXr8yJ-H@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4C75BB4F.7050409@compsys.to> >Liam Proven wrote: >>On 24 August 2010 14:55, Jerome H. Fine <jhfinedp3k at compsys.to> wrote: > > >>>>Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >>> >>> >>>>The real problem is windows. They load it up with bloat so that you >>>>need a faster processor and more memory, then drop support for older >>>>versions that didn't do so much crud. The end result is that you're >>>>forced into upgrading to a slower operating system (that is, it's >>>>doing more) at the same time you're upgrading to faster hardware. >>>> >>>> >>>Am I the only one here who uses windows XP and windows 2000 for a LONG >>>time (without reformatting) and everything works? :oO >>> >>> >>I am just about to upgrade from Windows 98SE (used since 2002) to a Windows XP >>system. I want to use Windows XP to run exactly the same 2 applications as the >>current system (750 MHz PIII), i.e. Netscape 7.2 and Ersatz-11. >> >>I am about to install Netscape on the Windows XP system since I want to drag along >>all of the old archives (more than 10 years of e-mails and Usenet). >> >Netscape 7.2 was horrible when it was current and it is ancient now. >Do yourself a favour, update to SeaMonkey. It's the same codebase, but >a decade more polished, and it uses the same file formats for >mail/news as Netscape Communicator, the old Mozilla suite and >Thunderbird. The reason being that it's the latest version of the same >code as Netscape 7.x and Mozilla Suite. > > Aside from the fact that Netscape 7.2 has features (which I use every day) that current Internet Explorer does not have, it seems to serve my purposes when I want to look at the classiccmp list. So it comes across as great that SeaMonkey would possibly allow me to keep all of my e-mail and classiccmp correspondence as is. Do you have a link to SeaMonkey? When I Google for SeaMonkey, there does not seem to be a browser available. Also, there seems to be a Netscape 8.0 available. Might that be better than Netscape 7.2 even if not as good as SeaMonkey? My goal is to have something that works equally well since as far as I am concerned, if my current memory could expand to 2 GB (motherboard is limited to 756 MB), I would stay with Windows 98SE. The speed of the core 2 duo is not a major benefit although I will not throw it away if it is there. On the other hand, I seem to recall that Netscape 8.0 was not really compatible with Netscape 7.2 which may have been why I avoided the upgrade when it became available. Can anyone comment on this possibility? In addition, as opposed to my PDP-11/83 which still runs after 20 years, I seriously doubt that there are more than a few years left with my 2002 PC system. All the disk drives have been replaced and the power supply replaced twice in addition to needing a separate power supply for the hard drives at this point or the system will not boot. Jerome Fine From lproven at gmail.com Wed Aug 25 20:08:02 2010 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2010 02:08:02 +0100 Subject: speeding up computers (was Re: Terminals...) In-Reply-To: <4C75BB4F.7050409@compsys.to> References: <AANLkTinFops3Xw_cJhoLMY7Faiz25oBFTu0mMDkFBJHf@mail.gmail.com> <AANLkTinisr7uORmuRhmk4jxii9C=AQtJsKNXoqaZ4nfZ@mail.gmail.com> <020a01cb4335$2b4c75f0$0600000a@portajara> <4C73CF39.3080100@compsys.to> <AANLkTimiDBAsD_5GNJFxMra4CO5z9QkZb9iOUXr8yJ-H@mail.gmail.com> <4C75BB4F.7050409@compsys.to> Message-ID: <AANLkTiksqM7TndcyX5PJNGzdYBf-EN+sFqKbxLFUAOHX@mail.gmail.com> On 26 August 2010 01:54, Jerome H. Fine <jhfinedp3k at compsys.to> wrote: > Aside from the fact that Netscape 7.2 has features (which I use every day) > that current Internet > Explorer does not have, it seems to serve my purposes when I want to look at > the classiccmp list. I'm sure it does, but it's old, slow, can't cope with a lot of modern site features, and has many unpatched security exploits in it. For browsers, you really should run something current. > So it comes across as great that SeaMonkey would possibly allow me to keep > all of my e-mail > and classiccmp correspondence as is. ?Do you have a link to SeaMonkey? ?When > I Google > for SeaMonkey, there does not seem to be a browser available. [?] It is the 3rd link on Google: http://www.seamonkey-project.org/ > Also, there seems to be a Netscape 8.0 available. ?Might that be better than > Netscape 7.2 > even if not as good as SeaMonkey? ?My goal is to have something that works > equally well > since as far as I am concerned, if my current memory could expand to 2 GB > (motherboard > is limited to 756 MB), I would stay with Windows 98SE. ?The speed of the > core 2 duo > is not a major benefit although I will not throw it away if it is there. No. Abandon Win98. It was not a good version of Windows when it was new and it's a positive liability now. XP is overall a far more pleasant experience. If you *really* want to stay with a "retro" version of Windows, Windows 2000 is still fairly usable, but a lot of modern programs and drivers won't work. > On the other hand, I seem to recall that Netscape 8.0 was not really > compatible with > Netscape 7.2 which may have been why I avoided the upgrade when it became > available. ?Can anyone comment on this possibility? AFAICR it's the same codebase; there should not be any /major/ issues. Frankly, you'd be better off with Thunderbird and Firefox, which are the email/news bit of Netscape 7.x/8.x and the Web browser bit split into standalone apps. Still fairly comfortable and relatively familiar, but more modern and streamlined. It does pay to turn off a few of the new features of Thunderbird 3, though. However, if you prefer the all-in-one approach and as familiar a tool as possible, SeaMonkey is the way to go. -- Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From dkelvey at hotmail.com Wed Aug 25 20:46:17 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2010 18:46:17 -0700 Subject: Should you correct production mistakes? In-Reply-To: <m1OoO0M-000J49C@p850ug1> References: <m1OoO0M-000J49C@p850ug1> Message-ID: <SNT129-W17A1A6ACB188BBA95D6D1FA3850@phx.gbl> > From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk ---snip--- > > WHile cleaning the dirt off this PCB (HV attracts dust electrostatcally, > of couse), I noticed that the ground pin of this IC never made it through > the board. It's folded under the package, but has been effectively > surface-mount soldered to the pad when the board was wave-soldered. It > works, but I can't beeleive it's as good as a proper through-hole > connection, and it's certian;y not what was intended. > > I could trivially desolder the IC, straighten the pin, and solder it back > properly. But should I? What would others do? > > -tony > Hi First, can you explain how it works as is? Being one shots, such a fix might effect the timing. Is it adjustable? At a place I once worked, we had a board where the +5 was missing from a CMOS part. It was running from the inputs that luckily always had at least one high. Dwight From cube1 at charter.net Wed Aug 25 20:58:27 2010 From: cube1 at charter.net (cube1 at charter.net) Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2010 18:58:27 -0700 Subject: Should you correct production mistakes? In-Reply-To: <SNT129-W17A1A6ACB188BBA95D6D1FA3850@phx.gbl> Message-ID: <20100825215827.6YZDY.8022038.root@mp11> Actually, on many boards there was effectively the copper went all the way thru the hole ("thru hole plating"), thus providing continuity from one side to the other. Only on really cheap / very early boards did soldering provide that thru-the-hole connection -- it caused reliability problems (surprise surprise). Even without that, grounds specifically tend to be run as busses, and so missing one thru-hole connection on the ground buss would probably be no big deal, as there are probably tons of other connections where ground is passed thru from one side of the board to the other. So, as long as that pin is soldered to the pad on top, and so long as that pad runs to ground somewhere else *OR* so long as the thru-hole plating is intact -- no biggy. Either way, it is almost certainly fine just the way it is. JRJ ---- dwight elvey <dkelvey at hotmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk > ---snip--- > > > > WHile cleaning the dirt off this PCB (HV attracts dust electrostatcally, > > of couse), I noticed that the ground pin of this IC never made it through > > the board. It's folded under the package, but has been effectively > > surface-mount soldered to the pad when the board was wave-soldered. It > > works, but I can't beeleive it's as good as a proper through-hole > > connection, and it's certian;y not what was intended. > > > > I could trivially desolder the IC, straighten the pin, and solder it back > > properly. But should I? What would others do? > > > > -tony > > > > Hi > First, can you explain how it works as is? > Being one shots, such a fix might effect the timing. Is it adjustable? > At a place I once worked, we had a board where the +5 was missing from > a CMOS part. It was running from the inputs that luckily always had > at least one high. > Dwight > From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Aug 25 21:16:57 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2010 19:16:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Should you correct production mistakes? In-Reply-To: <20100825215827.6YZDY.8022038.root@mp11> References: <20100825215827.6YZDY.8022038.root@mp11> Message-ID: <20100825190415.Y61186@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 25 Aug 2010 cube1 at charter.net wrote: > So, as long as that pin is soldered to the pad on top, and that is normally a really shitty solder connection. > and so long as > that pad runs to ground somewhere else *OR* so long as the thru-hole > plating is intact -- no biggy. > Either way, it is almost certainly fine just the way it is. 10 years OK, then gradually worsening intermittent connection. Even DURING those first 10 years, I do NOT consider that "fine". The Board Swappers declared the board to be "NFG" and wanted to discard it. One of my colleagues is about to get fired - of the fifteen complaints against him for "unprofessional behavior", one of the most serious is "took discarded stuff out of the college dumpster and repaired it". All reasons to repair it not to "good as new", but to "good as it was supposed to be". Unless there was some historical rarity like "Gary Kildall did this bad soldering", WHY would you want to keep it in a defective state? Are you doing stamp collecting, or physics? To bring this throughly OFF-topic, should you clean Ansel Adams' thumbprint off of one of his negatives? (which is more important? - the historical aspect, or the quality of it?) From dm561 at torfree.net Wed Aug 25 22:43:40 2010 From: dm561 at torfree.net (MikeS) Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2010 23:43:40 -0400 Subject: PROMS but from what ? References: <mailman.80.1282782217.1006.cctalk@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <6DBB4D5393024CE79F4A91A269C1BF4C@vl420mt> --------------Original Message Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2010 21:06:37 +0200 From: "Rik Bos" <hp-fix at xs4all.nl> Subject: PROMS but from what ? I aquired a lot of small DIL14/16 PROMS ceramic package with a 8 digit number on it some of the numbers are : 2584 0821 2574 6975 2571 5418 2600 1529 1447 3581 1447 3540 2600 1495 1447 3797 2600 1487 2603 2623 2625 5562 2554 0888 2600 1495 I can't find any reference about them, so if some one recognizes the numbers or can use them let me know (I've a few hundreds of them) If no one wants them I'm going to archive them in the big metal bin. -Rik -------------------Reply: Are you sure that they're PROMs? They might be Burroughs numbers, but not PROMs (at least not the ones I looked up). For instance: 1447 3581 7438 4x2 NAND gate 1447 3540 7410 3x3 NAND gate 1447 3797 9322 4x2to1 MUX 2600 1495 7404 6xINV mike From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Aug 25 23:02:58 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2010 21:02:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Simulated telephone In-Reply-To: <ebc6d21a65c27ce79d832fd74a31b44e@cs.ubc.ca> References: <4C73EA73.3020308@netscape.net> <ebc6d21a65c27ce79d832fd74a31b44e@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <20100825205304.I64224@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 24 Aug 2010, Brent Hilpert wrote: > If both modems in a given connection are older ('80s), lower-speed > (300-1200/2400) it will likely work by simply connecting them together > and commanding one off-hook in answer mode (ATA ?), then the other > off-hook in originate mode (ATD ? ATH1 ?). I have successfully done > this with particular modems up to 14.4Kbps but might be forgetting the > commands. Many of my older modems are from BEFORE "Hayes Compatible" became the standard for giving commands to the modem. BTW, Joe Campbell ("RS232 Solution", "C Programmer's Guide to Serial Communication", etc.) got hired later by Hayes to document just what the Hayes "standard" consisted of, because there were numerous variation in commands between Hayes' own modems! -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Aug 26 00:09:00 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2010 01:09:00 -0400 Subject: Burroughs parts? (was Re: PROMS but from what ?) Message-ID: <AANLkTinafZmZ_1JQQWviPYCtt58+AJv-e82mgaSPdSnb@mail.gmail.com> On 8/25/10, MikeS <dm561 at torfree.net> wrote: > Are you sure that they're PROMs? > > They might be Burroughs numbers, but not PROMs (at least not the ones I > looked up). > > For instance: > > 1447 3581 7438 4x2 NAND gate > 1447 3540 7410 3x3 NAND gate > 1447 3797 9322 4x2to1 MUX > 2600 1495 7404 6xINV Hey! I think I've got a tackle box full of stuff like this. One drawer is marked "3581 '38" for example. I picked up the tacklebox and the chips from a vendor at Dayton some years ago. It's loaded with the following part numbers (dates listed are representative): 1447-3532 SN7404N 7909 (Nat'l Semi/Signetics/TI) 1447-3524 SN7408N 7650 (Nat'l Semi/Signetics/ITT/TI) 1447-3540 7410F 7915 (Nat'l Semi/Signetics/ITT) 1447-3565 7420 7907 (Signetics/ITT/TI) 1447-3607 SN7474N 7836 (TI/Fairchild/Signetics) 1447-3615 74107N 7912 (Nat'l Semi/Fairchild/Signetics) 1447-3557 74H11N 7738 (Nat'l Semi/ITT/Signetics) 1447-3581 7438N 7838 (Nat'l Semi/ITT/Signetics) 1447-3797 SN74157 7827 (Nat'l Semi/ITT/TI) 1447-3771 SN74161N 7701 (Nat'l Semi/TI/AMD) 1447-3755 74195 7644 (Signetics/TI/AMD) 1447-3722 74155 7709 (Signetics/TI) 1447-3714 SN74153 7832 (Nat'l Semi/Signetics/TI) ... plus a mish-mash in a bin marked "misc"... part numbers include 1447-* * == 3599, 3706, 3623, 3698, 3789, 3649 and several more Until this thread, I had no idea the 1447-* numbers were Burroughs. Is anyone restoring such equipment and looking for spares? My own interest are such that if I used these anywhere, it'd be to replace parts gone bad in DEC M-series modules for my PDP-8/i and PDP-8/Ls. In particular, I'm always hunting for 7474s since those seem to be favored to fail in the gear I have (along with 7440s, statistically). Is there a list of these part numbers? The ones I gave happen to be listed with both the 1447-* numbers _and_ 74-series TTL numbers. The misc drawer has numerous ones with only 1447-* numbers, and I'd like to know what's what. Cheers, -ethan From james at machineroom.info Wed Aug 25 17:19:30 2010 From: james at machineroom.info (James Wilson) Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2010 23:19:30 +0100 Subject: Should you correct production mistakes? In-Reply-To: <m1OoO0M-000J49C@p850ug1> References: <m1OoO0M-000J49C@p850ug1> Message-ID: <4C7596F2.3030300@machineroom.info> Tony Duell wrote: > When you are cleaning up and restoring a piece of classic computer > hardware, would you correct any minor mistakes made in the original > production? > > ..... Personally I'd correct it. I've generally tried to restore the few machines I have owned in my "rolling collection" to a working state. Now in my case I'm not so competent at the circuit level so for example I've been known to replace the power supply in an Indigo with a modern PC unit but hidden in the original casing. Asthetically you wouldn't know and the machine has several more useful years as a result. Like you, I think these machines should be shown to work, and ideally used for some purpose. The heat and stress inside a CRT casing is no place for shoddy construction! On the other hand there's a strong case for not tinkering with "quirks" that made it to production and affect all machines of a given type since they define the character. Regards, James From chrise at pobox.com Wed Aug 25 20:25:23 2010 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2010 20:25:23 -0500 Subject: Simulated telephone In-Reply-To: <m1OoNq2-000J48C@p850ug1> References: <E1Oo91m-0000c7-78@shell.xmission.com> <m1OoNq2-000J48C@p850ug1> Message-ID: <20100826012523.GE14137@n0jcf.net> On Wednesday (08/25/2010 at 10:48PM +0100), Tony Duell wrote: > > > > > > In article <20100825002826.GA14137 at n0jcf.net>, > > Chris Elmquist <chrise at pobox.com> writes: > > > > > (actually the model TLS-4, which a friend loned to me) I have a > > > collection of acoustic coupled terminal devices and modems here > > > [...] > > > > Do tell! > > > > As a fellow terminal freak, I'd love to hear what kind of acoustic > > coupled terminal devices you have! > > I am not a terminal fanatic, but I have a couple of somewhat unusual > accoustically-coupled devices. The first (and I suspect more common) is a > portable thermal prinitng terminal (no, not a Silent 700) with an > accoustic coupler on the back. I've never used the coupler, there is also > an RS232 socket which I have used... There was a thing I saw as a kid and wanted really badly... called a Whisper Writer. I believe it was built my 3M company but was a very small, very portable (for late 70's technology) thermal printer + keyboard with acoustic coupler. Is it one of those by chance? > The second isn't a terminal, it's an EPROM programemr (!). It appears to > have been used by some company's field service to download and program > ROMs on-site. A bopx with the accoustic cups on top, a few control > switches and a ZIF socket. Very interesting. One wonders what sort of error correction they were able to implement to ensure that any line noise didn't trash the stuff you were committing to the EPROM. > I really must make a phone line simulator and/or a telephone exchange... I would sure have done so too if I hadn't been able to scam this Teltone unit from my buddy. > > My plan is to do something very similar to what you've done: connect > > the terminals to a terminal server and then have hosts reachable from > > that. It never occured to me to have vintage hosts running in > > emulators on a PC, though, what a great idea! It really completes the > > vintage experience. Imparting that vintage terminal experience is > > Siurel to _complete_ the vintage experience you should have the real > vintage host (and not an emulator) running on the other end of the line. > That's what I would do. Well, yes... but a CDC Cyber 800 or 875 to be specific, is kinda large for my basement ;-) So, that one gets emulated. For DEC stuff, it's mostly a curiousity to explore the old OSes. I would love to have an 11/23 or 11/34 as they were one of the first systems I wrote code on for money when I was in high school. But, again, I'm balancing space for capability. Instead, I seem to be collecting the real peripheral devices and spoofing the "mainframe in the basement" with emulators. My terminal collection is still growing but I do have several TI Silent 700. One is the first generation model 725... which is the size of a giant suitcase and has a Novation acoustic coupler on the right hand side. I also have a couple TI 745 which are the smaller (closer to portable) units with the acoustic coupler at the back of the unit. I worked for Multi-Tech Systems here in MN for many years... first in the late 70's and again in the early 90's and of course collected souvenirs along the way. I have several FM-30 acoustic couplers which were the first digital discriminator based modem that Multi-Tech built and I have those connected to a pair of DEC LA120. This configuration replicates what we had in grade school and high school for calling into the state-wide computer network, which, surprise, was a Cyber 800 series mainframe running NOS (and a University of MN derivative OS). So, I can dialup the "Cyber" from my LA120 and play Oregon Trail ;-) I have a Teletype model 33 that was OEM'd by Anderson Jacobsen and has one of their acoustic couplers mounted on the right-hand side where some TWX models of the 33 would have a rotary or DTMF dial. This has the full size acoustic coupler with HALF/FULL slide switch and big green CARRIER light. Kinda fun. I have a Heathkit H19 terminal that I built in 1978 which is a "floater". Sometimes it's hooked to an acoustic coupler (an FM-300, which was Multi-Tech's first product-- a completely analog-- as in lots of opamps-- acoustic coupled modem and sometimes hardwired to the terminal server and sometimes connected to one of several other Multi-Tech direct connect modems such as a 1200 baud MT212AH (one of their first smart modems) and an MT932 which is a 9600 baud v.32 unit. I guess this place is a celebration of old MN computing and computing products circa 1970-1980. It's definitely constrained to things I had as a kid or have used in my career (ah, mostly constrained that is ;-) ) Chris -- Chris Elmquist From chrise at pobox.com Wed Aug 25 20:37:15 2010 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2010 20:37:15 -0500 Subject: Should you correct production mistakes? In-Reply-To: <m1OoO0M-000J49C@p850ug1> References: <m1OoO0M-000J49C@p850ug1> Message-ID: <20100826013715.GF14137@n0jcf.net> On Wednesday (08/25/2010 at 10:59PM +0100), Tony Duell wrote: > > I could trivially desolder the IC, straighten the pin, and solder it back > properly. But should I? What would others do? _I_ would fix it. It's clearly not what HP intended, sadly it slipped through some quality inspection and certainly isn't supposed to be that way. I'd take the position of fixing it now, while the unit is apart for other reasons, so that you don't have to take it apart again later when it does fail and then risk damaging other aged things then. I had a similar decision which you folks offered input on-- which was the apparently failed transformer in my SWTPC 6800 system (c. 1976). I failed to close the loop on that story but in the end, I discovered that the real problem was the lousy MOLEX connectors that were used between the power supply PCB and the end of the power harness going to the motherboard. The pins in this connector were not mating well, were corroded and had been heating up for some time (a long time ago!). The white MOLEX shell was turning brown and was actually warm to the touch when I would briefly power the machine on. I decided to replace this connector with something similar but better and all the issues went away. Chris -- Chris Elmquist From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Thu Aug 26 01:16:11 2010 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2010 23:16:11 -0700 Subject: Simulated telephone In-Reply-To: <20100825205304.I64224@shell.lmi.net> References: <4C73EA73.3020308@netscape.net> <ebc6d21a65c27ce79d832fd74a31b44e@cs.ubc.ca> <20100825205304.I64224@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <ab732f9e47def38d8dc7aee8fa338e28@cs.ubc.ca> On 2010 Aug 25, at 9:02 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Tue, 24 Aug 2010, Brent Hilpert wrote: >> If both modems in a given connection are older ('80s), lower-speed >> (300-1200/2400) it will likely work by simply connecting them together >> and commanding one off-hook in answer mode (ATA ?), then the other >> off-hook in originate mode (ATD ? ATH1 ?). I have successfully done >> this with particular modems up to 14.4Kbps but might be forgetting the >> commands. > > Many of my older modems are from BEFORE "Hayes Compatible" became the > standard for giving commands to the modem. Well, I was thinking of adding in that if you have a really old modem you might have to flip the originate/answer switch appropriately if it has one, but I think the OP indicated he was dealing with later stuff. (I have a couple of pre-'smart' modems, too.) > BTW, Joe Campbell ("RS232 Solution", "C Programmer's Guide to Serial > Communication", etc.) got hired later by Hayes to document just what > the > Hayes "standard" consisted of, because there were numerous variation in > commands between Hayes' own modems! The hayes command set always seemed non-sensical to me. For example, the AT prefix on (almost) everything when you were already in command mode seemed quite unnecessary. From pontus at Update.UU.SE Thu Aug 26 02:18:28 2010 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2010 09:18:28 +0200 Subject: speeding up computers (was Re: Terminals...) In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikaVstGUt5XA7=WG7rCQiecCF57uYy-reM5UOFf@mail.gmail.com> References: <AANLkTinFops3Xw_cJhoLMY7Faiz25oBFTu0mMDkFBJHf@mail.gmail.com> <4C73CF39.3080100@compsys.to> <20100824141628.GA31995@Update.UU.SE> <4C737706.6217.60562B@cclist.sydex.com> <20100824145853.GA2064@Update.UU.SE> <AANLkTikaVstGUt5XA7=WG7rCQiecCF57uYy-reM5UOFf@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20100826071827.GA17554@Update.UU.SE> On Thu, Aug 26, 2010 at 12:59:16AM +0100, Liam Proven wrote: > > Which is somewhat missleading, you have to make a full installation > > first and then remove stuff using xplite. > > No, you don't. That is not how it works. It builds custom install CD > images /and nothing else./ > > It is unwise to pontificate on subjects where you are not certain of your facts. I did read up on the subject, what I said was that I don't have first hand experience using it. Buut, as you said in an another post, you got it mixed up :) nlite looks interesting though, I think I read about it some years ago. Cheers, Pontus. From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Thu Aug 26 04:38:45 2010 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2010 11:38:45 +0200 Subject: PROMS but from what ? In-Reply-To: <6DBB4D5393024CE79F4A91A269C1BF4C@vl420mt> References: <mailman.80.1282782217.1006.cctalk@classiccmp.org> <6DBB4D5393024CE79F4A91A269C1BF4C@vl420mt> Message-ID: <890B408DF7A64BCFA0E154FC69883CF6@xp1800> > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Namens MikeS > Verzonden: donderdag 26 augustus 2010 5:44 > Aan: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Onderwerp: PROMS but from what ? > > --------------Original Message > > Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2010 21:06:37 +0200 > From: "Rik Bos" <hp-fix at xs4all.nl> > Subject: PROMS but from what ? > > I aquired a lot of small DIL14/16 PROMS ceramic package with > a 8 digit number on it some of the numbers are : > 2584 0821 > 2574 6975 > 2571 5418 > 2600 1529 > 1447 3581 > 1447 3540 > 2600 1495 > 1447 3797 > 2600 1487 > 2603 2623 > 2625 5562 > 2554 0888 > 2600 1495 > > I can't find any reference about them, so if some one > recognizes the numbers or can use them let me know (I've a > few hundreds of them) If no one wants them I'm going to > archive them in the big metal bin. > > > -Rik > > -------------------Reply: > > Are you sure that they're PROMs? > > They might be Burroughs numbers, but not PROMs (at least not > the ones I looked up). > > For instance: > > 1447 3581 7438 4x2 NAND gate > 1447 3540 7410 3x3 NAND gate > 1447 3797 9322 4x2to1 MUX > 2600 1495 7404 6xINV > > mike > > > Mike, Thanks, to be honest no I'm not sure. I was told it were proms and some of the ic's did have labels on them. When I removed on it was a 74S571J which is a 2K prom. Do you have a xref list for Burroughs parts or know where I can find one If any one needs one or more of those let me know. -Rik From lproven at gmail.com Thu Aug 26 06:35:09 2010 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2010 12:35:09 +0100 Subject: speeding up computers (was Re: Terminals...) In-Reply-To: <20100826071827.GA17554@Update.UU.SE> References: <AANLkTinFops3Xw_cJhoLMY7Faiz25oBFTu0mMDkFBJHf@mail.gmail.com> <4C73CF39.3080100@compsys.to> <20100824141628.GA31995@Update.UU.SE> <4C737706.6217.60562B@cclist.sydex.com> <20100824145853.GA2064@Update.UU.SE> <AANLkTikaVstGUt5XA7=WG7rCQiecCF57uYy-reM5UOFf@mail.gmail.com> <20100826071827.GA17554@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <AANLkTin-YfyWL-R=psqyVTD4UppUNtO+92F5CJFrFOFy@mail.gmail.com> On 26 August 2010 08:18, Pontus Pihlgren <pontus at update.uu.se> wrote: > On Thu, Aug 26, 2010 at 12:59:16AM +0100, Liam Proven wrote: >> > Which is somewhat missleading, you have to make a full installation >> > first and then remove stuff using xplite. >> >> No, you don't. That is not how it works. It builds custom install CD >> images /and nothing else./ >> >> It is unwise to pontificate on subjects where you are not certain of your facts. > > I did read up on the subject, what I said was that I don't have first > hand experience using it. > > Buut, as you said in an another post, you got it mixed up :) nlite looks > interesting though, I think I read about it some years ago. My apologies for my error. (*Blush*) NLite is pretty good and I used to use it a lot, but now I have TinyXP, in which it's been done for me, I seldom bother any more. -- Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From hachti at hachti.de Thu Aug 26 11:34:24 2010 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2010 18:34:24 +0200 Subject: OS/8 FORTRAN IV saving? Message-ID: <4C769790.4040408@hachti.de> Hi, I seem to remember that it was possible to save a FORTRAN IV program together with the FRTS runtime system as a runnable .SV core image file. It seems that ADVENT does so... Any idea? (minor question: How does something like "R PROG ARGS" work?) Regards, Philipp -- http://www.hachti.de From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Aug 26 11:58:27 2010 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2010 09:58:27 -0700 Subject: PROMS but from what ? In-Reply-To: <890B408DF7A64BCFA0E154FC69883CF6@xp1800> References: <mailman.80.1282782217.1006.cctalk@classiccmp.org> <6DBB4D5393024CE79F4A91A269C1BF4C@vl420mt> <890B408DF7A64BCFA0E154FC69883CF6@xp1800> Message-ID: <4C769D33.5070503@bitsavers.org> On 8/26/10 2:38 AM, Rik Bos wrote: > Do you have a xref list for Burroughs parts or know where I can find one > There should be one in the field service manuals on bitsavers. I know I scanned one at some point. From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Thu Aug 26 12:12:49 2010 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2010 19:12:49 +0200 Subject: PROMS but from what ? In-Reply-To: <4C769D33.5070503@bitsavers.org> References: <mailman.80.1282782217.1006.cctalk@classiccmp.org> <6DBB4D5393024CE79F4A91A269C1BF4C@vl420mt><890B408DF7A64BCFA0E154FC69883CF6@xp1800> <4C769D33.5070503@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <B3F157B88D914952AB0558A05E0D63B8@xp1800> > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Namens Al Kossow > Verzonden: donderdag 26 augustus 2010 18:58 > Aan: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Onderwerp: Re: PROMS but from what ? > > On 8/26/10 2:38 AM, Rik Bos wrote: > > > Do you have a xref list for Burroughs parts or know where I > can find > > one > > > > There should be one in the field service manuals on > bitsavers. I know I scanned one at some point. > Thanks Al, I found it. http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/burroughs/icData/26060475_IC_data_Aug75.pdf -Rik From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Thu Aug 26 12:29:34 2010 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2010 10:29:34 -0700 Subject: PROMS but from what ? In-Reply-To: <890B408DF7A64BCFA0E154FC69883CF6@xp1800> References: <mailman.80.1282782217.1006.cctalk@classiccmp.org> <6DBB4D5393024CE79F4A91A269C1BF4C@vl420mt> <890B408DF7A64BCFA0E154FC69883CF6@xp1800> Message-ID: <e25ae6dec0a47fc5ed8c3ab5b049e9a9@cs.ubc.ca> On 2010 Aug 26, at 2:38 AM, Rik Bos wrote: >> >> I aquired a lot of small DIL14/16 PROMS ceramic package with >> a 8 digit number on it some of the numbers are : ... >> I can't find any reference about them, so if some one >> recognizes the numbers or can use them let me know (I've a >> few hundreds of them) If no one wants them I'm going to >> archive them in the big metal bin. Adding to mike's and ethan's cross-refs, I have a large core memory module from Burroughs from 1979, the IC's have both Burroughs and 7400 part numbers on them. Out of your list I was able to cross-ref 3 of them, although 2 of those have already been cross-ref'd: mike ethan brent 2584 0821 2574 6975 2571 5418 2600 1529 1447 3581 7438 7438N 7438J[1] 1447 3540 7410 7410F 2600 1495 7404 74S04F [2] 1447 3797 9322 SN74157 2600 1487 74S00F 2603 2623 2625 5562 2554 0888 2600 1495 (listed twice) ([1] over-stamped with 2624 8922) (ethan's list shows a different burroughs # for 7404) -- For my own interest, I wish I knew what machine this core memory came from. A large plug-in PCB about 18 inches square, with a daughter-board containing a folded planar array mounted to it. 32 KWords, 20 bits/word. From woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net Thu Aug 26 12:29:54 2010 From: woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net (Dave Woyciesjes) Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2010 13:29:54 -0400 Subject: speeding up computers (was Re: Terminals...) In-Reply-To: <mailman.3.1282842001.84530.cctalk@classiccmp.org> References: <mailman.3.1282842001.84530.cctalk@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <4C76A492.6040700@sbcglobal.net> Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2010 20:54:39 -0400 From: "Jerome H. Fine" <jhfinedp3k at compsys.to> Subject: Re: speeding up computers (was Re: Terminals...) To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <4C75BB4F.7050409 at compsys.to> I have migrated from Netscape 4 email, all the way to Thunderbird3, and never had a problem with moving the mailfiles. I don't know the details, but the mailfile format hasn't changed. I've recently opened some mailfolder from Netscape 4 directly in TBird 2 without a hitch. I'd suggest going to 2.0.0.24 (or whatever is the most recent version of the 2 series). I tried TBird3 here at work, and didn't like it for the way I use it at work. The message folder search function to be specific. But TBird3 works good for me at home... -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- ICQ# 905818 --- AIM - woyciesjes --- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech - http://certification.comptia.org/ --- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst - http://www.ThinkHDI.com/ Registered Linux user number 464583 "From there to here, From here to there, Funny things are everywhere." --- Dr. Seuss From dm561 at torfree.net Thu Aug 26 12:26:08 2010 From: dm561 at torfree.net (MikeS) Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2010 13:26:08 -0400 Subject: Simulated telephone References: <mailman.3.1282842001.84530.cctalk@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <C9BFCDEE1B7E439B9DCBDC559E6DF422@vl420mt> -----------------Original Message: Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2010 23:16:11 -0700 From: Brent Hilpert <hilpert at cs.ubc.ca> Subject: Re: Simulated telephone On 2010 Aug 25, at 9:02 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Tue, 24 Aug 2010, Brent Hilpert wrote: >> If both modems in a given connection are older ('80s), lower-speed >> (300-1200/2400) it will likely work by simply connecting them together >> and commanding one off-hook in answer mode (ATA ?), then the other >> off-hook in originate mode (ATD ? ATH1 ?). I have successfully done >> this with particular modems up to 14.4Kbps but might be forgetting the >> commands. > > Many of my older modems are from BEFORE "Hayes Compatible" became the > standard for giving commands to the modem. Well, I was thinking of adding in that if you have a really old modem you might have to flip the originate/answer switch appropriately if it has one, but I think the OP indicated he was dealing with later stuff. (I have a couple of pre-'smart' modems, too.) --------------------Reply: I was going to make the same point; the M100 he mentioned as an example *does* indeed have an originate/answer switch (as well as a direct connect/acoustic coupler switch). I usually don't have any problem just connecting modems together without any fancy line simulators, etc. mike From RichA at vulcan.com Thu Aug 26 12:34:20 2010 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2010 10:34:20 -0700 Subject: Should you correct production mistakes? In-Reply-To: <20100826013715.GF14137@n0jcf.net> References: <m1OoO0M-000J49C@p850ug1> <20100826013715.GF14137@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <CC28F43ED4708D489ABCF68D06D7F556040A5CCA17@505DENALI.corp.vnw.com> From: Chris Elmquist Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2010 6:37 PM > ... I discovered that the real problem was the lousy MOLEX connectors ^^^^^ ^^^^^ Redundant, isn't it? Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.PDPplanet.org/ http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From legalize at xmission.com Thu Aug 26 12:35:14 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2010 11:35:14 -0600 Subject: Simulated telephone In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 25 Aug 2010 19:17:49 -0500. <AANLkTim1uo2nA8hudzpqN4K+piGm9Rak7WX6jmvMPt2R@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <E1OogM6-00066U-94@shell.xmission.com> In article <AANLkTim1uo2nA8hudzpqN4K+piGm9Rak7WX6jmvMPt2R at mail.gmail.com>, Jason T <silent700 at gmail.com> writes: > On Wed, Aug 25, 2010 at 11:11 AM, Richard <legalize at xmission.com> wrote: > > Will these do the job? ebay # 380262117910 > > > > Another $50, assuming you get minimum bid. > > I see $20, and that's a whole set! Yes, but it was $30 shipping. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com/the-direct3d-graphics-pipeline/> Legalize Adulthood! <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com> From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Thu Aug 26 12:38:22 2010 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2010 13:38:22 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Terminal ID? In-Reply-To: <4C73D085.15754.1BE01CB@cclist.sydex.com> References: <E1Oljsi-0004Zr-2M@shell.xmission.com>, <Pine.LNX.4.64.1008241556470.3337@cpumagic.scol.pa.us>, <AANLkTimeUKB=nNdF82yhkBroHJ3WdiUXdeLviiXeqih1@mail.gmail.com> <4C73D085.15754.1BE01CB@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1008261333050.18807@cpumagic.scol.pa.us> Can anyone identify these two terminals? http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/DSC05842.JPG http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/DSC06049.JPG The second one, in particular, looks like some model of ADDS terminal. Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From dm561 at torfree.net Thu Aug 26 12:39:01 2010 From: dm561 at torfree.net (MikeS) Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2010 13:39:01 -0400 Subject: PROMS but from what ? References: <mailman.3.1282842001.84530.cctalk@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <25065ECFAD98405A88BB761BA584D305@vl420mt> ----------------------Original Message: Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2010 11:38:45 +0200 From: "Rik Bos" <hp-fix at xs4all.nl> Subject: RE: PROMS but from what ? <snip> > I aquired a lot of small DIL14/16 PROMS ceramic package with > a 8 digit number on it some of the numbers are : > 2584 0821 ... > -Rik > > -------------------Reply: > > Are you sure that they're PROMs? > > They might be Burroughs numbers, but not PROMs (at least not > the ones I looked up). > > For instance: > > 1447 3581 7438 4x2 NAND gate > 1447 3540 7410 3x3 NAND gate > 1447 3797 9322 4x2to1 MUX > 2600 1495 7404 6xINV > > mike > > > Mike, Thanks, to be honest no I'm not sure. I was told it were proms and some of the ic's did have labels on them. When I removed on it was a 74S571J which is a 2K prom. Do you have a xref list for Burroughs parts or know where I can find one If any one needs one or more of those let me know. -Rik -------------------------Reply: As Al mentioned, there is a partial list at bitsavers: http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/burroughs/icData/ There may also be more in some of the other manuals, and I have info on some more as well as a "parts catalogue" that I can't put my fingers on at the moment. If you do have some PROMs, I'd think that there's a good chance that they're already programmed and therefore not very useful (but worth checking JIC). mike From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Thu Aug 26 12:49:34 2010 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2010 12:49:34 -0500 Subject: Should you correct production mistakes? In-Reply-To: <m1OoO0M-000J49C@p850ug1> References: <m1OoO0M-000J49C@p850ug1> Message-ID: <4C76A92E.2030500@gmail.com> Tony Duell wrote: > When you are cleaning up and restoring a piece of classic computer > hardware, would you correct any minor mistakes made in the original > production? "It depends" (doesn't it always?) I love finding stuff like that when investigating a machine - it's part of the machine's "story", I suppose. On the other hand, the perfectionist in me would likely want to fix it. Maybe the solution is to document your change somehow and fix it, but only if it's possible to back out of the change at a later date - that way you're not harming the "story" but still fixing the fault while the machine is part of your own collection for your own enjoyment. I suppose the magnitude of the problem comes into play, too; for something small like a solder joint that was currently working, I might be tempted just to leave it as-is until it did break properly (which might never happen). cheers Jules From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Thu Aug 26 12:59:20 2010 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2010 10:59:20 -0700 Subject: Burroughs core memory module <-> machine Message-ID: <cef202f66e33052475bbf8632f2ebc8f@cs.ubc.ca> (I just mentioned this in the thread about Burroughs part numbers, but am putting it forth in a separate question in case it gets missed by some readers.) I have a core memory module from some Burroughs machine. It is a large plug-in PCB about 16 inches square containing address & inhibit drivers & such. Mounted to this is a near-same-size daughter-board containing the sense amplifiers and the folded planar array of cores underneath a metal shield. It is organised as 32 KWords, 20 bits wide. Any suggestions as to what machine this may have come from? The 20 bits is the raw-memory-word width, one could speculate that some of those bits were used for ECC and the machine-word-width is smaller, although I'm not sure off the top of my head whether 4 bits is enough for ECC on 16 bits (isn't it >log2(n) for 1-bit ECC on n bits?) From dm561 at torfree.net Thu Aug 26 13:00:38 2010 From: dm561 at torfree.net (MikeS) Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2010 14:00:38 -0400 Subject: Burroughs parts? (was Re: PROMS but from what ?) References: <mailman.3.1282842001.84530.cctalk@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <61662B3AEB3A43DDB90AB30D990FC760@vl420mt> ---------------------Original Message: Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2010 01:09:00 -0400 From: Ethan Dicks <ethan.dicks at gmail.com> Subject: Burroughs parts? (was Re: PROMS but from what ?) On 8/25/10, MikeS <dm561 at torfree.net> wrote: > Are you sure that they're PROMs? > > They might be Burroughs numbers, but not PROMs (at least not the ones I > looked up). > > For instance: > > 1447 3581 7438 4x2 NAND gate > 1447 3540 7410 3x3 NAND gate > 1447 3797 9322 4x2to1 MUX > 2600 1495 7404 6xINV Hey! I think I've got a tackle box full of stuff like this. One drawer is marked "3581 '38" for example. I picked up the tacklebox and the chips from a vendor at Dayton some years ago. It's loaded with the following part numbers (dates listed are representative): 1447-3532 SN7404N 7909 (Nat'l Semi/Signetics/TI) 1447-3524 SN7408N 7650 (Nat'l Semi/Signetics/ITT/TI) 1447-3540 7410F 7915 (Nat'l Semi/Signetics/ITT) 1447-3565 7420 7907 (Signetics/ITT/TI) 1447-3607 SN7474N 7836 (TI/Fairchild/Signetics) 1447-3615 74107N 7912 (Nat'l Semi/Fairchild/Signetics) 1447-3557 74H11N 7738 (Nat'l Semi/ITT/Signetics) 1447-3581 7438N 7838 (Nat'l Semi/ITT/Signetics) 1447-3797 SN74157 7827 (Nat'l Semi/ITT/TI) 1447-3771 SN74161N 7701 (Nat'l Semi/TI/AMD) 1447-3755 74195 7644 (Signetics/TI/AMD) 1447-3722 74155 7709 (Signetics/TI) 1447-3714 SN74153 7832 (Nat'l Semi/Signetics/TI) ... plus a mish-mash in a bin marked "misc"... part numbers include 1447-* * == 3599, 3706, 3623, 3698, 3789, 3649 and several more Until this thread, I had no idea the 1447-* numbers were Burroughs. Is anyone restoring such equipment and looking for spares? My own interest are such that if I used these anywhere, it'd be to replace parts gone bad in DEC M-series modules for my PDP-8/i and PDP-8/Ls. In particular, I'm always hunting for 7474s since those seem to be favored to fail in the gear I have (along with 7440s, statistically). Is there a list of these part numbers? The ones I gave happen to be listed with both the 1447-* numbers _and_ 74-series TTL numbers. The misc drawer has numerous ones with only 1447-* numbers, and I'd like to know what's what. Cheers, -ethan ---------------------------Reply: Have a look at the cross-reference on Bitsavers: http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/burroughs/icData/ and if there are any that you can't find, send me a PM and I'll see what I can find; I have another list or two but no idea where they came from, as well as some dead-tree stuff from my days at BBM. mike From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Thu Aug 26 13:03:24 2010 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2010 11:03:24 -0700 Subject: Should you correct production mistakes? In-Reply-To: <CC28F43ED4708D489ABCF68D06D7F556040A5CCA17@505DENALI.corp.vnw.com> References: <m1OoO0M-000J49C@p850ug1> <20100826013715.GF14137@n0jcf.net> <CC28F43ED4708D489ABCF68D06D7F556040A5CCA17@505DENALI.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <9b8eabea772fc3af4ce5d7a7441406c8@cs.ubc.ca> On 2010 Aug 26, at 10:34 AM, Rich Alderson wrote: > From: Chris Elmquist > Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2010 6:37 PM > >> ... I discovered that the real problem was the lousy MOLEX connectors > ^^^^^ ^^^^^ > Redundant, isn't it? ... indeed, and SWTPC products are filled with them. From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Thu Aug 26 13:14:25 2010 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2010 11:14:25 -0700 Subject: Should you correct production mistakes? In-Reply-To: <4C76A92E.2030500@gmail.com> References: <m1OoO0M-000J49C@p850ug1> <4C76A92E.2030500@gmail.com> Message-ID: <80db17001af41d4b27208e7d6654d1f5@cs.ubc.ca> On 2010 Aug 26, at 10:49 AM, Jules Richardson wrote: > Tony Duell wrote: >> When you are cleaning up and restoring a piece of classic computer >> hardware, would you correct any minor mistakes made in the original >> production? > > "It depends" (doesn't it always?) > > I love finding stuff like that when investigating a machine - it's > part of the machine's "story", I suppose. On the other hand, the > perfectionist in me would likely want to fix it. > > Maybe the solution is to document your change somehow and fix it, but > only if it's possible to back out of the change at a later date - that > way you're not harming the "story" but still fixing the fault while > the machine is part of your own collection for your own enjoyment. > > I suppose the magnitude of the problem comes into play, too; for > something small like a solder joint that was currently working, I > might be tempted just to leave it as-is until it did break properly > (which might never happen). > Maybe HP's QC isn't quite what we like to believe it to be. I've mentioned in the past an HP9815 calculator (1970's) in which a power supply filter electrolytic capacitor was factory installed with reverse polarity. It has never presented a problem however, so in that instance I didn't correct it, just noted it in my log for the machine. From rescue at hawkmountain.net Thu Aug 26 13:26:28 2010 From: rescue at hawkmountain.net (Curtis H. Wilbar Jr.) Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2010 14:26:28 -0400 Subject: Terminal ID? In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1008261333050.18807@cpumagic.scol.pa.us> References: <E1Oljsi-0004Zr-2M@shell.xmission.com>, <Pine.LNX.4.64.1008241556470.3337@cpumagic.scol.pa.us>, <AANLkTimeUKB=nNdF82yhkBroHJ3WdiUXdeLviiXeqih1@mail.gmail.com> <4C73D085.15754.1BE01CB@cclist.sydex.com> <Pine.LNX.4.64.1008261333050.18807@cpumagic.scol.pa.us> Message-ID: <4C76B1D4.2020803@hawkmountain.net> Mike Loewen wrote: > > Can anyone identify these two terminals? > > http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/DSC05842.JPG > http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/DSC06049.JPG That second one looks a lot like (from what I can remember that far back when I went to college) the ADDS 580 terminals I used (on DECsystem 10). I'd like to find an ADDS 580 with amber screen.... not sure why... but I really liked those terminals.... big honkin' tanks however.... I liked them better than the ADM3A terminals they had (not that ADM3A is a bad terminal... I just liked the ADDS). -- Curt > > The second one, in particular, looks like some model of ADDS terminal. > > > Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us > Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ > From silent700 at gmail.com Thu Aug 26 13:40:26 2010 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2010 13:40:26 -0500 Subject: Simulated telephone In-Reply-To: <E1OogM6-00066U-94@shell.xmission.com> References: <AANLkTim1uo2nA8hudzpqN4K+piGm9Rak7WX6jmvMPt2R@mail.gmail.com> <E1OogM6-00066U-94@shell.xmission.com> Message-ID: <AANLkTin_s-7J5z7i1rN8v=cw=9Dt54rk_jXa7PSrpTYv@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, Aug 26, 2010 at 12:35 PM, Richard <legalize at xmission.com> wrote: > Yes, but it was $30 shipping. Ouch! Missed that. For those really interested in home PBXes, demoing phones (and modems,) etc., the list over at Singing Wires/TCI has been helpful to me. I bought my Panasonic set from a member there: http://telephonecollectors.org/ From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Aug 26 14:15:20 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2010 15:15:20 -0400 Subject: Burroughs parts? (was Re: PROMS but from what ?) In-Reply-To: <61662B3AEB3A43DDB90AB30D990FC760@vl420mt> References: <mailman.3.1282842001.84530.cctalk@classiccmp.org> <61662B3AEB3A43DDB90AB30D990FC760@vl420mt> Message-ID: <AANLkTik8Hj8megE1GmbpDcv+j3QZcA7zci61FCzbuiVP@mail.gmail.com> On 8/26/10, MikeS <dm561 at torfree.net> wrote: >> From: Ethan Dicks <ethan.dicks at gmail.com> >> Hey! I think I've got a tackle box full of stuff like this.... >> >> Until this thread, I had no idea the 1447-* numbers were Burroughs. > ---------------------------Reply: > > Have a look at the cross-reference on Bitsavers: > http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/burroughs/icData/ Thanks for the pointer. I will probably cull the PDF for 1447-* part numbers and make a spreadsheet. The "misc" bin is overflowing, and I know I saw at least half a dozen different part numbers. > and if there are any that you can't find, send me a PM and I'll see what I > can find; I have another list or two but no idea where they came from, as > well as some dead-tree stuff from my days at BBM. Will do, but it won't happen right away. I have a few other things on my plate first. Cheers, -ethan From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Aug 26 13:15:42 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2010 19:15:42 +0100 (BST) Subject: Should you correct production mistakes? In-Reply-To: <305719.49138.qm@web83910.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> from "geoffrey oltmans" at Aug 25, 10 03:10:25 pm Message-ID: <m1OogzQ-000J3uC@p850ug1> > > If it's working, I'd probably leave well enough alone and make a > mental note of > it in case something happened that it could have had an effect on. It was wroking when I lat used the terminal some 20 years ago (and it was an old unit then). But I am not the sort of person to apply power to somethign that's not been run in 20 years without checking it over first. So I can't be sure it's still working. I can be sure (and am sure -- I've tested it ) that this pin is is correctly grounded even though its' not going through the hole. If the conenction failed, then the output of this circuit would become a TTL high, I guess. Dure to an iverter on the board, this would turn off the horizontla drive transistor. Sinec the output of that is transfoemr coupled to the horizontal output transistor, that would be turend off (no change in drive form the driver transsitor -> no base current in the output stage). At which point I'd loose all the CRT voltages, but there would be no damage. One thing that had worreid me was that in some video boards if there was a failure of the horizotnal drive sircuit then the ouput transitor could be turned on, leading to damage to it and/or the flyback transfotmer. The former would be a pain, the latter would be a very large pain! But this doesn't apply here. On the other hand, I know it's an erorr. And getting to it involves dismantling most of the terminal, including disconnecting the EHT connector form the CRT. So I'd rather not have to keep on removing this PCB. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Aug 26 13:22:59 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2010 19:22:59 +0100 (BST) Subject: Should you correct production mistakes? In-Reply-To: <4C7596F2.3030300@machineroom.info> from "James Wilson" at Aug 25, 10 11:19:30 pm Message-ID: <m1Ooh6V-000J3xC@p850ug1> > > Tony Duell wrote: > > When you are cleaning up and restoring a piece of classic computer > > hardware, would you correct any minor mistakes made in the original > > production? > > > > ..... > Personally I'd correct it. I've generally tried to restore the few > machines I have owned in my "rolling collection" to a working state. Now I think it's fairly well-known here that I like my classics to be working. I don't want a shelf of ronaments :-). However, AFAIK this terminal will work even with the problem (it had been used for some years before I got it, I suspect the fault was there from new, there is no evidence that this video monitor PCB has ever been swapped. > in my case I'm not so competent at the circuit level so for example I've > been known to replace the power supply in an Indigo with a modern PC > unit but hidden in the original casing. Asthetically you wouldn't know I bet I'd know :-). I gerneally take machines apart... > and the machine has several more useful years as a result. > Like you, I think these machines should be shown to work, and ideally > used for some purpose. The heat and stress inside a CRT casing is no > place for shoddy construction! This particualr PCB is right hehind the CRT. It's one of the HP 'ET Head' units, and inside the casing are 3 PCBs. A large logic board on the underside of the unit (accesible by hinging the case up on the stand and releasing 4 Nylatch cips) containing some 200 ICs, the monitor PCB mouted behind the CRT, and which is got at by removingthe logic board, disconencing cablesm ad fiddlign it out downared, avoiding damaging the CRT. and the PSU (along with a mains transformer [1]) which fits at the very back is is accessed by removing the top cover. So the monitor PCB is not trivial to get to. [1] Mine is not the Opto 050 version with a built-in thermal printer. That has a full SMPSU. The normal one like mine has a mains trasformer giving about 24V AC, and then a linear regulator for the -12V line and switching regulators for the +5V and +12V outputs. > > On the other hand there's a strong case for not tinkering with "quirks" > that made it to production and affect all machines of a given type since > they define the character. I don;t think this fault has 'chracter'. If it was an open connection, or intermittant, the most likely there would be nothing on the screeen at all. On the otehr hand, I suspect that prodsuction erorrs from 'classic HP' that have made it into the field are rare, so perhaps it's worth keeping as an example of that ;-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Aug 26 13:24:49 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2010 19:24:49 +0100 (BST) Subject: Should you correct production mistakes? In-Reply-To: <4C759961.9080807@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at Aug 25, 10 04:29:53 pm Message-ID: <m1Ooh8C-000J3yC@p850ug1> > > Tony Duell wrote: > > I could trivially desolder the IC, straighten the pin, and solder it > back > > properly. But should I? What would others do? > > Had we found any problem analogous to that in the PDP-1 restoration, > where the machine operated correctly despite a manufacturing defect, I'm > sure we would have had a debate on whether to fix it. I think my own > opinion in that case would be that we should leave it alone, but tag the > module (paper tag attached with a short loop of string) and document the > issue in the system logbook. Seeems reasonable for such a rare machine. > > For something that isn't considered a museum artifact, I'd be more > inclined to fix it. While HP262x terminals are not exactly common (this is the only one Iv'e ever seen...), I don't put it in the same class as the PDP1 :-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Aug 26 13:32:24 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2010 19:32:24 +0100 (BST) Subject: Should you correct production mistakes? In-Reply-To: <20100825225740.094781E0234@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> from "Tim Shoppa" at Aug 25, 10 06:57:40 pm Message-ID: <m1OohFZ-000J43C@p850ug1> > > Eric writes: > > Tony Duell wrote: > >> I could trivially desolder the IC, straighten the pin, and solder it > back > >> properly. But should I? What would others do? > > > Had we found any problem analogous to that in the PDP-1 restoration, > > where the machine operated correctly despite a manufacturing defect, I'm > > sure we would have had a debate on whether to fix it. I think my own > > opinion in that case would be that we should leave it alone, but tag the > > module (paper tag attached with a short loop of string) and document the > > issue in the system logbook. > > For something that isn't considered a museum artifact, I'd be more > > inclined to fix it. > > Whatever happened to "if it ain't broke, don't fix it"? I've always wondered where that idiotic saying came from. Do you wait until your car engine seizes before you change the oil? Do you wait for the timing belt to break voalves to hit pistons before you replace said belt? Or do you do mainenance? If you saw a tiny leak fro ma brake sylincer on your car would you carry ion driving (it's working fine, I csan stop the car), or would you check that cylidner, replace seals, etc before it failed totally and you ran into somebody/something? In the case of classic computers, I always do a visual inspection inside, chgeck the PSU on dummy load, etc before poweing it up for real. More than once that's saved me having to replace a lot of parts. > > The ability of a robust assembly and QA process to result in working systems, > despite small manufacturing errors, is remarkable. If the board passed QC > and was released into the wild and is still working decades later, that > is a fact worth noting but I see zero reason to correct it. I don't doubt > anyone's soldering skill but there is still a small and nonzero chance > that any attempted "fix" would result in hassles. I can;t think of anythign that could happen when repairing this which would not itself be curable. If I wreck the IC, well 74LS221s are not that rare. Alas it wouldn't have an 1820-xxxx numberm but it would work. If I managed to lift traces off the PCB, I could repair them. It's not a critical cirucit for layout. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Aug 26 14:02:42 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2010 20:02:42 +0100 (BST) Subject: Simulated telephone In-Reply-To: <20100826012523.GE14137@n0jcf.net> from "Chris Elmquist" at Aug 25, 10 08:25:23 pm Message-ID: <m1Oohio-000J48C@p850ug1> > > I am not a terminal fanatic, but I have a couple of somewhat unusual > > accoustically-coupled devices. The first (and I suspect more common) is a > > portable thermal prinitng terminal (no, not a Silent 700) with an > > accoustic coupler on the back. I've never used the coupler, there is also > > an RS232 socket which I have used... > > There was a thing I saw as a kid and wanted really badly... called a > Whisper Writer. I believe it was built my 3M company but was a very > small, very portable (for late 70's technology) thermal printer + > keyboard with acoustic coupler. Is it one of those by chance? Alas not. It was made by a company called 'Computer Devices Inc' and claims to be a 'Miniterm 1203' Does anyone have any more infoemtion? > > > The second isn't a terminal, it's an EPROM programemr (!). It appears to > > have been used by some company's field service to download and program > > ROMs on-site. A bopx with the accoustic cups on top, a few control > > switches and a ZIF socket. > > Very interesting. One wonders what sort of error correction they were > able to implement to ensure that any line noise didn't trash the stuff > you were committing to the EPROM. I have no idea. I cna't remember what's inside, but I seem to recall some kind of microprocessor/microcontroller, so it could do some error detection. It might just take Intel Hex or somethign, which has a checksum on every line (and many characters are invalid anyway), which I think would detect erros fro, say, a noisy phone line. > > > I really must make a phone line simulator and/or a telephone exchange... > > I would sure have done so too if I hadn't been able to scam this Teltone > unit from my buddy. I am still thinking about this. It would appear the cheaper small telephone exchanges do not meet by 'repairable' requirement, and quite possibly the line simulators don't eiterh. A UAX (Unit Automatic eXchange) -- all relays and 2 motion selectors -- would (I even have schematics and theory-of-operation for some of those on the bookshelf, but I have nowhere to put one :-). I think I can make a simple (no dialtone/ringtone) line simulator in aobut 4 ICs, though, all common parts. Must be worth a try... [...] > I have a Teletype model 33 that was OEM'd by Anderson Jacobsen and has > one of their acoustic couplers mounted on the right-hand side where some > TWX models of the 33 would have a rotary or DTMF dial. This has the > full size acoustic coupler with HALF/FULL slide switch and big green > CARRIER light. Kinda fun. Taht reminds me... I have an A-J acoustic coupler ina wooden box somewhere... I don';t fancy tryign to get reliable operation from an acoustic coupler mounted right next to an ASR33 typing unit., but anyway... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Aug 26 13:36:39 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2010 19:36:39 +0100 (BST) Subject: Should you correct production mistakes? In-Reply-To: <20100825160121.H55530@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Aug 25, 10 04:09:17 pm Message-ID: <m1OohJd-000J49C@p850ug1> > > On Wed, 25 Aug 2010, Tony Duell wrote: > > I could trivially desolder the IC, straighten the pin, and solder it back > > properly. But should I? What would others do? > > If you care about the machine, of course! I care about having it working (I am not a 'stamp collector' :-)), and I care about any failures that I could anticipate not causing more damage. But actualyl, having looked at the circuit, I dont' see how an open-circuit on the ground pin of this IC would damage any of the imposible-to-replace components in the terminal > I did on an IBM MDA board. > > If you don't care about using the machine, and are collecting based on > resale value, rarity, provenance, then maybe not. Although such things do WOuld I do that??? > NOT have the artificial rarity and inflated value that a misprinted stamp > does, if the computer has a particularly unique history, then it might be > worth saving for that - "Woz mis-soldered this chip" kind of crap. Since I am darn sure this PCB was wave-soldered, and the parts were probably automatically fitted. So there is no chance of me being able to say $person made this error. Not that such athing would really interest me anyhow. > "all science is either physics or stamp-collecting", which of those YOU > are doing, could determine whether repairs, or even modifications, are > appropriate. As a physicist, I think I know which side I am on here :-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Aug 26 13:45:30 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2010 19:45:30 +0100 (BST) Subject: Should you correct production mistakes? In-Reply-To: <20100825162540.E55530@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Aug 25, 10 04:34:01 pm Message-ID: <m1OohSD-000J4BC@p850ug1> > > On Wed, 25 Aug 2010, Eric Smith wrote: > > I think the way that I would state it is that just because the system is > > working correctly (at the moment) doesn't mean that it isn't broken. > > > > Part of the reason I don't think we'd fix such a problem in the PDP-1 is > > that the PDP-1 isn't doing anything criticial. We can afford to have > > downtime if a latent problem eventual causes a failure. If we've > > properly documented that latent problem, we can check for it when the > > system does fail, and fix it if necessary at that time. > > Your ability to tolerate downtime is significant, as also is your thorough That would apply to me too i nthe case of this HP terminal. I am not depending on it working. Yes, I want to be able to use it, and I want to play about with it, but if it fails I am quite happy to open it up and grab the 'scope and logic analyser... > documentation, so that the repair won't end up in the hands of board > swappers. > > > Y'know, it would be fun to see an entire set of exhibits explicitly about > failure modes. Remember the HUH S100 boards for the TRS80, where one of > the entire early production runs was reversed, but could be used by > soldering all of the components to the back side of the board? :-). I am pretty sure there ws a DMM sold in the UK which sued as expensiv 'custom' 40 pin chip. Turns out it was a 7107 or something mirror-flippe. You could use a normal one if you soldered it to the otehr side of the PCN (and there was enough space to do that. Sinclar machines are knwon for such bodges -- ICs and/or transistors stuck on top of other comonents with kludgewires everywhere. Although wether those machines ever worked correctly is debatable :-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Aug 26 14:27:41 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2010 20:27:41 +0100 (BST) Subject: Should you correct production mistakes? In-Reply-To: <20100826013715.GF14137@n0jcf.net> from "Chris Elmquist" at Aug 25, 10 08:37:15 pm Message-ID: <m1Ooi6y-000J4CC@p850ug1> > > On Wednesday (08/25/2010 at 10:59PM +0100), Tony Duell wrote: > > > > I could trivially desolder the IC, straighten the pin, and solder it back > > properly. But should I? What would others do? > > _I_ would fix it. It's clearly not what HP intended, sadly it slipped That much is certain :-). There is a hole and pad on the PCB for this pin. > through some quality inspection and certainly isn't supposed to be > that way. I'd take the position of fixing it now, while the unit is > apart for other reasons, so that you don't have to take it apart again > later when it does fail and then risk damaging other aged things then. The things most likely to be damaged if I have to keep on removing the PCB are the Nylatch clips thst hold it in plave (those are those fixings that look like an over-size LED clip with a central plunger where pushing the plunger home spreds the 'clip', thus locking the thing into a hole in the chassis). or the CRT. Now Nylatch clips I have 'in stock', but finding a CRT coupdl be more of a problem. And I;d tather not have to replace it for no good reason. > > I had a similar decision which you folks offered input on-- which was > the apparently failed transformer in my SWTPC 6800 system (c. 1976). > I failed to close the loop on that story but in the end, I discovered > that the real problem was the lousy MOLEX connectors that were used Seen that many times... Commodore PETs suffer from this, for example. > between the power supply PCB and the end of the power harness going to > the motherboard. The pins in this connector were not mating well, were > corroded and had been heating up for some time (a long time ago!). The > white MOLEX shell was turning brown and was actually warm to the touch > when I would briefly power the machine on. I decided to replace this > connector with something similar but better and all the issues went away. I think I've mentioend befroe that my PERQ 3A had disk problems when I got it. It turned out that there's an in-line fuseholder in the 12V feed ot the head disk (Maxtor XT1140 type of thing) and one of the terminal screws in the holder was loose and there was thus a high-resistnace connection there. It was a particularly nasty fault because the voltage only driopped far enough to cause problems when the drive was seeking (due to the extra current needed to drive the positioner coil). So it ws not easy to spot.... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Aug 26 14:34:21 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2010 20:34:21 +0100 (BST) Subject: Should you correct production mistakes? In-Reply-To: <SNT129-W17A1A6ACB188BBA95D6D1FA3850@phx.gbl> from "dwight elvey" at Aug 25, 10 06:46:17 pm Message-ID: <m1OoiDQ-000J4FC@p850ug1> > > > From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk > ---snip--- > >=20 > > WHile cleaning the dirt off this PCB (HV attracts dust electrostatcally= > =2C=20 > > of couse)=2C I noticed that the ground pin of this IC never made it throu= > gh=20 > > the board. It's folded under the package=2C but has been effectively=20 > > surface-mount soldered to the pad when the board was wave-soldered. It=20 > > works=2C but I can't beeleive it's as good as a proper through-hole=20 > > connection=2C and it's certian=3By not what was intended. > >=20 > > I could trivially desolder the IC=2C straighten the pin=2C and solder it = > back=20 > > properly. But should I? What would others do? > >=20 > > -tony > >=20 > > Hi > First=2C can you explain how it works as is? Sure. The conenction is present. The PCB is double-sided, plated-through holes. The groudn min of this monostable IC is folded under the chip but tuouching the pat on the comonent side (wich is groudned by the through-plating), And enough solder wicked into the hole when the board was wave-soldered for there to be sodler joint betwee the pin and the pad. Just not as solid a connection as I would like. > Being one shots=2C such a fix might effect the timing. Is it adjustable? The 2 one-shots are cascaded. The first one is driven by the Hsync signal from the logic board and delays it. The output of that triggers the scond one which probides a constant-width pulse to the horizontal drive transistor. The first one-shot is adjustabnle. The adjustment is a 'customer preset' control -- that is a preset that can be turned witha screwdriver through a hole in the tope of the terminal casing. It's used to centre the picture horizontally. The second one-shot is not adjustable. But I can see no evidence of there being any select-on-text compoennts here. Much the same circuit -- with the same component values is used in the HP120 and HP150 comptuers, for example. Totally different layourt, though. And the adjustments (or lack of them) are the smae there. > At a place I once worked=2C we had a board where the +5 was missing from > a CMOS part. It was running from the inputs that luckily always had > at least one high. More ofen the circuit works until all the ipuuts go high at the same time. A nasty fault to find if you've not seen it before. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Aug 26 14:38:50 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2010 20:38:50 +0100 (BST) Subject: Should you correct production mistakes? In-Reply-To: <20100825215827.6YZDY.8022038.root@mp11> from "cube1@charter.net" at Aug 25, 10 06:58:27 pm Message-ID: <m1OoiHl-000J4GC@p850ug1> > > Actually, on many boards there was effectively the copper went all the > way thru the hole ("thru hole plating"), thus providing continuity from Yes, this PCB us through-hole plated. > one side to the other. Only on really cheap / very early boards did > soldering provide that thru-the-hole connection -- it caused reliability > problems (surprise surprise). I cna;t think why there are reliability problems if the sodlering is done properly. I've built a number of prototpyes where I've had to sodler components on both sides or fint pins to connect traces through the board and haev never had problems from doing that. > Even without that, grounds specifically tend to be run as busses, and Actualyl, this PCB is somehwt odd there. Almost all the signal and power traces are on the _component_ side of the board. The solder side is essentailly a ground plane witha few signal traces in it (to 'hop over' other traces on the top side). So the through hole plating is essential to provide a gorund to this pin. But the plating is there. The hole is full of solder, and in fact the pin is soldered to the pad. I have checked the ground conenciton, it's find. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Aug 26 14:43:02 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2010 20:43:02 +0100 (BST) Subject: Should you correct production mistakes? In-Reply-To: <20100825190415.Y61186@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Aug 25, 10 07:16:57 pm Message-ID: <m1OoiLt-000J4HC@p850ug1> > > On Wed, 25 Aug 2010 cube1 at charter.net wrote: > > So, as long as that pin is soldered to the pad on top, > > and that is normally a really shitty solder connection. That's what worries me... > > > and so long as > > that pad runs to ground somewhere else *OR* so long as the thru-hole > > plating is intact -- no biggy. > > Either way, it is almost certainly fine just the way it is. > > 10 years OK, then gradually worsening intermittent connection. > Even DURING those first 10 years, I do NOT consider that "fine". Indeed. I regard it as a error. It may work for now, but it's still 'wrong'. > The Board Swappers declared the board to be "NFG" and wanted to discard > it. One of my colleagues is about to get fired - of the fifteen > complaints against him for "unprofessional behavior", one of the most > serious is "took discarded stuff out of the college dumpster and > repaired it". I thought we were supposoied to be reducing the amount of waste sent ot landfill.... I susepc the next bit of 'unprofessional behaviour' should involve a testla coil and some bits of the management :-) > To bring this throughly OFF-topic, should you clean Ansel Adams' > thumbprint off of one of his negatives? > (which is more important? - the historical aspect, or the quality of it?) I thinki I would print it as-is to keep a record of the thumbprint (and to preseve the image as far as I could if cleaning it ruined it), and then clean off the thumbrint and print it 'properly' :-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Aug 26 15:35:49 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2010 21:35:49 +0100 (BST) Subject: OT : The new Big Trak Message-ID: <m1OojAv-000J4JC@p850ug1> This is off-tipic for 2 main reasons : (1) the device in question is not even 1 year old yet and (2) it's not a computer. But I suspect many people here rememebr the MB Big Trak programmable toy tank from the early 1980s, and may even rememebr the Circuit Cellar article that involved modifying one. So anyway... You can buy a modrn version of the Big Trak in the UK now. To the user it's much the same as the origianl version (I will mention differences) later. Inside it's very different. The cheapest I've found it in a shop is \pounds 34.00 in Hawkin's Bazaar. I've sene it for a few 10's of pence cheapr on the web, but then youy have to add shipping. Anyway, I am sure you know what I did to mine first, even before puttign the batteryies in and trying it out.Yes, I took it apart. Given that many people here are like me, I;ll explain how to do that. 1) Remove the battery cover (2 screws) and batteris if you have fitted them. 2) Next take off the plastic strips joining the front and rear axles. There are held on by 2 scres each (self-tapping screws with integral washers). If you have put the optional stickers on, you have to peel them off to get to these screws.. Then slide off the front and rear wheels. the centre 9driving) wheels are held on to the gearbox output shaftes hy a cetnre screw. Take these off next. 3) The next bit is non-obvious and had me puzzles for a minute or so. At he back of the lower body thre's a gey plastic part the only purpose of which is to hide a coupleof fixing screws. It's held in place by 4 plastic 'barbs', one each side and 2 along the rear endge. Carefully free it and slide it out downards. 4) Ondo the tiny screw thus revealed. Ths holds the kybaord bezel in plaec on top. Carefully unclip the bezel. On the underside of it is a little pCB carrying the power switch and the IR (?) LED for the trailer interfae. Undo the fixing screw, free the PCB amd set the bezel aside. 5) Back on the uinderside undo the dozen or so screws that hold the upper body in palce. Put the Big Trak the right way up and carfully lift off the upper bod. It's still linked by the flexiprint from the keybaord. This is not pluged in, it's clamped agianst the control PCB by a plastic clamp. Undo the 2 screws and lift of the clamp, then lift the kayboard tail over the pillers. The upper body is not free, 6) Undo the 2 screws holdign the LED holder for the 'photon cannon' in palce. This alos releases the loudspeaker which is lightly glued in place under it. Free that too. 7) I should have deoslderesd the battery wires next, otherwise you hve the lower body hanging on them, which is a bit of a pain. But I didn't. Anyway, undo th 4 screws on the bottom of the gearbox. Remove the gearbox complete with the control PCB downwards. The front axle is now free, don't loose it. 8) It appears that the PCB can be removed by desoldering the motor connectios (ML+, ML-, MR+. MR-) and then taking out the 4 corner screws. I have not done this. 9) The gearbox is held together by 5 screws on top (and can be dismantled with the PCB in palce). Take these out, turn the gearbox over, andlift off the cover. You can now see all the gearing. When reasbmbling note that there are several sies of selt-tapping screwn. Don't get them in the wrong holes... OK, diffeernces from the origianl version It runs everyting (logic and motors) off a single 4.5V supply (3 D cells in series) ratehr than +/-3V (4 D cells) and 9V (pp3) of the original version The 'photon cannon' is now an LED (blue I susepct) not a filament lamp The interface to the trailer is another LED (IR?) not a jack socket. The cotnroller bvoard is totrally redesigned. There are 2 ICs. These are epxoy-capped chip-on-board devices iwth a difference. They are not on the main PCB, they are on little daugherboards which are then soldered to the main PCB. The only think on the daughterboard is the epoxy-capped chip. So in theory they can be replaced. The larger IC is clearly a microcontroller (but not the TMS1000 of the origjnal one) in a package which looks to have the smae footprintas a PLCC device, I am not sure what the smaller IC is yet. Also on the PCB are a fair number of transsitors, R's and Cs, etc. Mostly SMD devices. The gearbox is redeisgned too. It's a lot easier to take apart and reassmeble than the orignal one. The magnetic clutch between the 2 motors is still there. The optical feedback from the gearbox is still there too. In fact there are now 2 IR light bariers, one for each motor, senmsing slots in the next-to-last gear in the train. I beelive the origianl version only had one light barrier. For a fairly cheap toy it's well made. It can be taken apart and put together again withut damage. Most of it is held together by self-tapping screws, but the battery cover (which the average owner has to remvoe and rrfit serveral times( is held on by machien screws going into tapped inserts in the lower body. Nice!. I may well do a Circuit Cellar style modification to mine (that is, a serial interfce thart simulates keypresses. Or maybe repaec the microcontroller totally. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Aug 26 15:45:10 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2010 21:45:10 +0100 (BST) Subject: Should you correct production mistakes? In-Reply-To: <80db17001af41d4b27208e7d6654d1f5@cs.ubc.ca> from "Brent Hilpert" at Aug 26, 10 11:14:25 am Message-ID: <m1OojJx-000J3uC@p850ug1> > Maybe HP's QC isn't quite what we like to believe it to be. I've MAybe not... I think I've had the odd reveres small electrolytic too... > mentioned in the past an HP9815 calculator (1970's) in which a power > supply filter electrolytic capacitor was factory installed with reverse > polarity. It has never presented a problem however, so in that instance > I didn't correct it, just noted it in my log for the machine. Now that I would _certainly_ replace. The reason is that the 9815 (and 9825 for thatr matteer) do not have corwbar cirucits in the PSU. If the PSU malfucntions in the 'right' way -- e.g. the chopepr transistors shorts (on the heatsink on the side of the transforemr box), the 5V line ca jum pt abotu 30V. Needless to say that's expensive... So if there was anything remotely suspect about that PSU. I'd fix it. It's a difficult PSU to test because it's all on the lower PCN that contains the printer and tape interface circuits. But that's not a big enough loard for it. What I do is remvoe the kyeboard/procesosr board assembly, take uout the expansion slot unit and the tape drive, and disconnect the printer (particualty the DIL header fo the prinhead which contains driver circuity). Then connect a 6V bulb across the 5V lone on the lower PCB and power up. If the PSU oges crazy, all it will ruin are a few common logic parts on that PCB, no custom parts. -tony From brianlanning at gmail.com Thu Aug 26 16:12:25 2010 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2010 16:12:25 -0500 Subject: OT : The new Big Trak In-Reply-To: <m1OojAv-000J4JC@p850ug1> References: <m1OojAv-000J4JC@p850ug1> Message-ID: <AANLkTimphabwxCx+9X92+FqBzRx2sxTAUtQvW6NCEz9E@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, Aug 26, 2010 at 3:35 PM, Tony Duell <ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk> wrote: > You can buy a modrn version of the Big Trak in the UK now. I had an original one here in the US. I also had the dump truck trailer. It was one of the few toys (in addition to lego bricks) that I play with again and again for years. I may have to pick one of these up. It's significantly smaller than the original, right? brian From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Thu Aug 26 16:17:16 2010 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2010 14:17:16 -0700 Subject: Should you correct production mistakes? In-Reply-To: <m1OojJx-000J3uC@p850ug1> References: <m1OojJx-000J3uC@p850ug1> Message-ID: <2459d18eef010fe9087e6f0bf9f5b724@cs.ubc.ca> On 2010 Aug 26, at 1:45 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> Maybe HP's QC isn't quite what we like to believe it to be. I've > > MAybe not... I think I've had the odd reveres small electrolytic too... > >> mentioned in the past an HP9815 calculator (1970's) in which a power >> supply filter electrolytic capacitor was factory installed with >> reverse >> polarity. It has never presented a problem however, so in that >> instance >> I didn't correct it, just noted it in my log for the machine. > > Now that I would _certainly_ replace. The reason is that the 9815 (and > 9825 for thatr matteer) do not have corwbar cirucits in the PSU. If the > PSU malfucntions in the 'right' way -- e.g. the chopepr transistors > shorts (on the heatsink on the side of the transforemr box), the 5V > line > ca jum pt abotu 30V. Needless to say that's expensive... The capacitor in question is the 680uF unit on the output side of the +15V regulator. The regulator (723) is configured with current limiting. Someday I'd like to remove the cap and measure whether it is actually providing any C to the circuit after years of reverse polarity operation. The cap is rated for 25V, I wonder whether there is a threshold effect on 'lytic caps, where -Vapplied < fraction*Vrated is not damaging to the cap. From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Aug 26 16:19:11 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2010 14:19:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT : The new Big Trak In-Reply-To: <m1OojAv-000J4JC@p850ug1> References: <m1OojAv-000J4JC@p850ug1> Message-ID: <20100826140512.O98290@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 26 Aug 2010, Tony Duell wrote: > This is off-tipic for 2 main reasons : (1) the device in question is not > even 1 year old yet and (2) it's not a computer. But I suspect many > people here rememebr the MB Big Trak programmable toy tank from the early > 1980s, and may even rememebr the Circuit Cellar article that involved > modifying one. So anyway... Does anybody remember the guvmint hassles about it? ("But the control circuitry of it could be installed in a real battlefield device!") I can see one of the original ones from where I sit right now. In the top box of that pile! The accessory trailer is no longer around, which is too bad, because that was what I used for "pen-up"/"pen-down" for playing with it as a large format plotter. The O-rings that provided traction on the circumference of the wheels are rotted away, and it sat for too long with batteries in it, although that cleaned up surprisingly easily. Tony, Do you want it? If Tony doesn't, who else would like it? free with local pickup in Berkeley; best offer PLUS shipping if I have to box it up and send it. Also, a 5150/5160 power supply with 2 drive connectors. It has a label on the end of it specifying the voltages, so it is presumably generic. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From binarydinosaurs at gmail.com Thu Aug 26 16:23:04 2010 From: binarydinosaurs at gmail.com (Adrian Graham) Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2010 22:23:04 +0100 Subject: OT : The new Big Trak In-Reply-To: <20100826140512.O98290@shell.lmi.net> References: <m1OojAv-000J4JC@p850ug1> <20100826140512.O98290@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <AANLkTi=tnC80nk07sLYYUPrkwePVH2Yx56uEL0Q=LO+s@mail.gmail.com> On 26 August 2010 22:19, Fred Cisin <cisin at xenosoft.com> wrote: > > Tony, > Do you want it? > > If Tony doesn't, who else would like it? Perhaps cheeky of me, but I have one without the battery cover so I'd love a scan of an original so's to make a new one... -- adrian/witchy Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest home? computer collection? www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Thu Aug 26 17:14:11 2010 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2010 18:14:11 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Terminal ID? In-Reply-To: <4C76B1D4.2020803@hawkmountain.net> References: <E1Oljsi-0004Zr-2M@shell.xmission.com>, <Pine.LNX.4.64.1008241556470.3337@cpumagic.scol.pa.us>, <AANLkTimeUKB=nNdF82yhkBroHJ3WdiUXdeLviiXeqih1@mail.gmail.com> <4C73D085.15754.1BE01CB@cclist.sydex.com> <Pine.LNX.4.64.1008261333050.18807@cpumagic.scol.pa.us> <4C76B1D4.2020803@hawkmountain.net> Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1008261812520.21900@cpumagic.scol.pa.us> On Thu, 26 Aug 2010, Curtis H. Wilbar Jr. wrote: > Mike Loewen wrote: >> >> Can anyone identify these two terminals? >> >> http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/DSC05842.JPG >> http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/DSC06049.JPG > > That second one looks a lot like (from what I can remember that far back when > I went to college) the ADDS 580 terminals I used (on DECsystem 10). I found some pictures of the ADDS Consul 580 terminal on the Vintage Computer Forum. For those who aren't members, here they are: http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/ADDS/P5030044c.jpg http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/ADDS/P5030045c.jpg http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/ADDS/P5030047c.jpg Looks pretty close. Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From silent700 at gmail.com Thu Aug 26 17:28:45 2010 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2010 17:28:45 -0500 Subject: Simulated telephone In-Reply-To: <m1Oohio-000J48C@p850ug1> References: <20100826012523.GE14137@n0jcf.net> <m1Oohio-000J48C@p850ug1> Message-ID: <AANLkTimBRcC_1KrdWYkQ22hF=iiRR4Ty2kuHabt2e4ER@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, Aug 26, 2010 at 2:02 PM, Tony Duell <ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk> wrote: > Alas not. It was made by a company called 'Computer Devices Inc' and > claims to be a 'Miniterm 1203' Does anyone have any more infoemtion? No information to speak of, but I do have the same or similar model: http://www.flickr.com/photos/chiclassiccomp/455415489/in/set-72157606520513168/ I'll have to check for a numeric model # when I get home. IIRC I had this one working off the coupler at some point. -- jht From RichA at vulcan.com Thu Aug 26 20:08:20 2010 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2010 18:08:20 -0700 Subject: In search of: DEC LP20 interface boards Message-ID: <CC28F43ED4708D489ABCF68D06D7F556040A5CCA1C@505DENALI.corp.vnw.com> Folks, Does anyone on the list have any of the following DEC PDP-11 printer interface boards squirreled away? M8585 LP20 Translation RAM Module M8586 LP20 Line Printer Control Module M8587 LP20 Line Printer Data Paths Module or M8571 LP20 Line Printer Data Paths Module Please contact me if you have one or more of these. Thanks, Rich Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.PDPplanet.org/ http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Aug 26 20:43:09 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2010 21:43:09 -0400 Subject: Burroughs parts? (was Re: PROMS but from what ?) In-Reply-To: <AANLkTinafZmZ_1JQQWviPYCtt58+AJv-e82mgaSPdSnb@mail.gmail.com> References: <AANLkTinafZmZ_1JQQWviPYCtt58+AJv-e82mgaSPdSnb@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <AANLkTikMgMQQsZBz0bK+CBaafFSyjrMKjSAzCPQrc1tz@mail.gmail.com> > Is anyone restoring such equipment and looking for spares? I can use Burroughs parts. -- Will From rescue at hawkmountain.net Thu Aug 26 23:14:17 2010 From: rescue at hawkmountain.net (Curtis H. Wilbar Jr.) Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2010 00:14:17 -0400 Subject: Terminal ID? In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1008261812520.21900@cpumagic.scol.pa.us> References: <E1Oljsi-0004Zr-2M@shell.xmission.com>, <Pine.LNX.4.64.1008241556470.3337@cpumagic.scol.pa.us>, <AANLkTimeUKB=nNdF82yhkBroHJ3WdiUXdeLviiXeqih1@mail.gmail.com> <4C73D085.15754.1BE01CB@cclist.sydex.com> <Pine.LNX.4.64.1008261333050.18807@cpumagic.scol.pa.us> <4C76B1D4.2020803@hawkmountain.net> <Pine.LNX.4.64.1008261812520.21900@cpumagic.scol.pa.us> Message-ID: <4C773B99.90306@hawkmountain.net> Mike Loewen wrote: > On Thu, 26 Aug 2010, Curtis H. Wilbar Jr. wrote: > >> Mike Loewen wrote: >>> >>> Can anyone identify these two terminals? >>> >>> http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/DSC05842.JPG >>> http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/DSC06049.JPG >> >> That second one looks a lot like (from what I can remember that far >> back when >> I went to college) the ADDS 580 terminals I used (on DECsystem 10). > > I found some pictures of the ADDS Consul 580 terminal on the > Vintage Computer Forum. For those who aren't members, here they are: > > http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/ADDS/P5030044c.jpg > http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/ADDS/P5030045c.jpg > http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/ADDS/P5030047c.jpg > > Looks pretty close. indeed.... looks like my memory isn't as bad as I thought it might be :-) Anyone with an ADDS 580 like this one that doesn't want it :-) ? -- Curt > > > Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us > Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ > From rodsmallwood at btconnect.com Thu Aug 26 23:51:28 2010 From: rodsmallwood at btconnect.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2010 05:51:28 +0100 Subject: Terminal ID? In-Reply-To: <4C76B1D4.2020803@hawkmountain.net> References: <E1Oljsi-0004Zr-2M@shell.xmission.com>, <Pine.LNX.4.64.1008241556470.3337@cpumagic.scol.pa.us>, <AANLkTimeUKB=nNdF82yhkBroHJ3WdiUXdeLviiXeqih1@mail.gmail.com> <4C73D085.15754.1BE01CB@cclist.sydex.com><Pine.LNX.4.64.1008261333050.18807@cpumagic.scol.pa.us> <4C76B1D4.2020803@hawkmountain.net> Message-ID: <753B2468AEE34248995BE8083902F99B@RodsDevSystem> ADDS Beehive? With a bad case of blue spot just like some DEC VR's get. BTW I have managed to successfully remove the outer faceplate on a VR201. You have to sacrifice it but the jelly like bonding underneath just peels off to reveal a clean tube face giving a good display. If you are not used to handling CRT's don't try this. Regards ? Rod Smallwood ? ? -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Curtis H. Wilbar Jr. Sent: 26 August 2010 19:26 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Terminal ID? Mike Loewen wrote: > > Can anyone identify these two terminals? > > http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/DSC05842.JPG > http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/DSC06049.JPG That second one looks a lot like (from what I can remember that far back when I went to college) the ADDS 580 terminals I used (on DECsystem 10). I'd like to find an ADDS 580 with amber screen.... not sure why... but I really liked those terminals.... big honkin' tanks however.... I liked them better than the ADM3A terminals they had (not that ADM3A is a bad terminal... I just liked the ADDS). -- Curt > > The second one, in particular, looks like some model of ADDS terminal. > > > Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us > Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ > From dkelvey at hotmail.com Fri Aug 27 00:57:36 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2010 22:57:36 -0700 Subject: SparcBook Tadpole In-Reply-To: <4C634204.5070500@neurotica.com> References: <992230.97947.qm@web52604.mail.re2.yahoo.com>, ,,<SNT129-W35920212CCFBCE4CAABE45A3950@phx.gbl>, , , <4C60BEAC.5080609@neurotica.com>, , <SNT129-W61D71C38D99D6E6DB2BFB3A3960@phx.gbl>, , <08fa01cb3967$3f6269a0$9201a8c0@portajara>, , <FF6AB92D97A23A409701CDBF66F03FCD03DC3E6EA0@505fuji>, <SNT129-W11234506A4545FAB51FE17A3960@phx.gbl>, <4C634204.5070500@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <SNT129-W392BAE8B762C6C3B64EA66A3860@phx.gbl> Hi I thought I post an update on my Sparcbook s1. I've not fiddle with the NVRAM yet. It is on my list to do. I did figure out the right combination to get it to read the CRDOM through the scsi connections. I'd tried a apa348 that is the same as the original t348. It didn't work. After some more investigations, I found that the t338 was more likely the correct one to use. The line drawing in the book looked like it could be a t338 or t339. I didn't find much on the t339 other than that it existed. I did find a t338 on ebay and bought it. I connected cables and adapters together from the Sparcbook to a Sun 411 cdrom drive. I then booted the Sparcbook and was able to mount the cdrom and do a ls. Wow. I'm just now fiddling with it to see what there is to find. Dwight From pinball at telus.net Thu Aug 26 14:38:42 2010 From: pinball at telus.net (John Robertson) Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2010 12:38:42 -0700 Subject: PROMS but from what ? In-Reply-To: <e25ae6dec0a47fc5ed8c3ab5b049e9a9@cs.ubc.ca> References: <mailman.80.1282782217.1006.cctalk@classiccmp.org> <6DBB4D5393024CE79F4A91A269C1BF4C@vl420mt> <890B408DF7A64BCFA0E154FC69883CF6@xp1800> <e25ae6dec0a47fc5ed8c3ab5b049e9a9@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <4C76C2C2.3070601@telus.net> Brent Hilpert wrote: > On 2010 Aug 26, at 2:38 AM, Rik Bos wrote: >>> >>> I aquired a lot of small DIL14/16 PROMS ceramic package with >>> a 8 digit number on it some of the numbers are : > ... >>> I can't find any reference about them, so if some one >>> recognizes the numbers or can use them let me know (I've a >>> few hundreds of them) If no one wants them I'm going to >>> archive them in the big metal bin. > > Adding to mike's and ethan's cross-refs, I have a large core memory > module from Burroughs from 1979, the IC's have both Burroughs and 7400 > part numbers on them. Out of your list I was able to cross-ref 3 of > them, although 2 of those have already been cross-ref'd: > > mike ethan brent > 2584 0821 > 2574 6975 > 2571 5418 > 2600 1529 > 1447 3581 7438 7438N 7438J[1] > 1447 3540 7410 7410F > 2600 1495 7404 74S04F [2] > 1447 3797 9322 SN74157 > 2600 1487 74S00F > 2603 2623 > 2625 5562 > 2554 0888 > 2600 1495 (listed twice) > > ([1] over-stamped with 2624 8922) > (ethan's list shows a different burroughs # for 7404) > > -- > > For my own interest, I wish I knew what machine this core memory came > from. A large plug-in PCB about 18 inches square, with a > daughter-board containing a folded planar array mounted to it. 32 > KWords, 20 bits/word. > > I would advise archiving the PROM data - and possibly posting it somewhere (bitsavers?) so if someone someday needs that PROM they could reconstruct it... In my industry (coin-operated amusements) lots of folks have spent a lot of time archiving Eproms/Proms/Roms and this often saves a game. We archived thousands of Eproms and Proms over the years and burn them for folks that don't have the ability (for a small fee) or send the code if they can burn (and trade something back). John :-#)# From rick at rickmurphy.net Thu Aug 26 19:59:17 2010 From: rick at rickmurphy.net (Rick Murphy) Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2010 20:59:17 -0400 Subject: OS/8 FORTRAN IV saving? In-Reply-To: <4C769790.4040408@hachti.de> References: <4C769790.4040408@hachti.de> Message-ID: <201008270059.o7R0xHGi026586@rickmurphy.net> At 12:34 PM 8/26/2010, Philipp Hachtmann wrote: >Hi, > >I seem to remember that it was possible to save a FORTRAN IV program >together with the FRTS runtime system as a runnable .SV core image >file. It seems that ADVENT does so... > >Any idea? That's the older version of OS/8 Adventure - it initialized then exited to OS/8. Unfortunately, the source for that has been lost, and I don't remember how it worked. I think it repeated the "PDPXIT" entry point in FRTS, didn't close units, then exited. Upon restore, it re-enabled interrupts and continued. >(minor question: How does something like "R PROG ARGS" work?) Again, too long ago, but IIRC this uses the CHAIN entry point and uses known data (command buffer in field 1 loc'n 1200), etc. to read and parse the additional args. -Rick From dkelvey at hotmail.com Fri Aug 27 01:17:07 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2010 23:17:07 -0700 Subject: GET LAMP is here In-Reply-To: <20100813134321.K83233@shell.lmi.net> References: <m1OjyiE-000J43C@p850ug1>,<20100813134321.K83233@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <SNT129-W574616CE703D2AD7D55794A3860@phx.gbl> Hi I just got the CDROM drive on my Sparcbook s1 running. The directory called /usr/games was empty on my machine. I looked on the CDROM and found a pile of games that I immediately copied to my harddrive on the sparcbook. Among the games was of course adventure ;) Dwight From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Aug 27 01:36:13 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2010 02:36:13 -0400 Subject: GET LAMP is here In-Reply-To: <SNT129-W574616CE703D2AD7D55794A3860@phx.gbl> References: <m1OjyiE-000J43C@p850ug1>, <20100813134321.K83233@shell.lmi.net> <SNT129-W574616CE703D2AD7D55794A3860@phx.gbl> Message-ID: <4C775CDD.1080501@neurotica.com> On 8/27/10 2:17 AM, dwight elvey wrote: > I just got the CDROM drive on my Sparcbook s1 running. > The directory called /usr/games was empty on my machine. > I looked on the CDROM and found a pile of games that I > immediately copied to my harddrive on the sparcbook. > Among the games was of course adventure ;) Most excellent. :) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Aug 27 01:39:37 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2010 02:39:37 -0400 Subject: OS/8 FORTRAN IV saving? In-Reply-To: <201008270059.o7R0xHGi026586@rickmurphy.net> References: <4C769790.4040408@hachti.de> <201008270059.o7R0xHGi026586@rickmurphy.net> Message-ID: <4C775DA9.1010200@neurotica.com> On 8/26/10 8:59 PM, Rick Murphy wrote: >> I seem to remember that it was possible to save a FORTRAN IV program >> together with the FRTS runtime system as a runnable .SV core image >> file. It seems that ADVENT does so... >> >> Any idea? > > That's the older version of OS/8 Adventure - it initialized then exited > to OS/8. > Unfortunately, the source for that has been lost, and I don't remember > how it worked. I thought that was found a couple of years ago? Or was that something else? > I think it repeated the "PDPXIT" entry point in FRTS, didn't close > units, then exited. Upon restore, it re-enabled interrupts and continued. Is it not possible to load a loader image (.LD) into FRTS, then exit FRTS and save the whole shebang with SAVE SYS <filename> or something along those lines? Not specific to ADVENT, but just in general. These are very dusty neurons but I could swear I've done this before, 25 years ago. I played with it for a while tonight and got nowhere. Eventually I figured out that one must likely do "RUN SYS FRTS" rather than just "R FRTS" in order to load the CCB (and thus avoid the dreaded "CORE IMAGE ERR" when executing the SAVE). Then I load my compiled .LD file into FRTS, exit, and do SAVE SYS <filename>, but my resultant .SV files just hang. This is just a simple "hello world" program. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From innfoclassics at gmail.com Fri Aug 27 02:30:24 2010 From: innfoclassics at gmail.com (Paxton Hoag) Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2010 00:30:24 -0700 Subject: Burroughs core memory module <-> machine In-Reply-To: <cef202f66e33052475bbf8632f2ebc8f@cs.ubc.ca> References: <cef202f66e33052475bbf8632f2ebc8f@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <AANLkTik=GrMyH34cMQahxmPcSYoraFQ5+7bS=e2a=7dD@mail.gmail.com> > I have a core memory module from some Burroughs machine. It is a large > plug-in PCB about 16 inches square containing address & inhibit drivers & > such. Mounted to this is a near-same-size daughter-board containing the > sense amplifiers and the folded planar array of cores underneath a metal > shield. > > It is organised as 32 KWords, 20 bits wide. > > Any suggestions as to what machine this may have come from? > Burroughs made several successful solid state accounting machines before branching to full computers. Some of these had core memory and were made in the 1970s. I knew a service person in Portland who maintained these and also serviced the early Vector 8 bit computer market in the 1980s. Paxton -- Paxton Hoag Astoria, OR USA From scanning.cc at gmail.com Fri Aug 27 03:27:34 2010 From: scanning.cc at gmail.com (alan canning) Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2010 00:27:34 -0800 Subject: Mispronouncing acronyms In-Reply-To: <4C6F164F.9080604@gmail.com> References: <B136EDE3DF5EC441B6F08E0A7AB872450AC800E4BE@EX2K7-CMS-1.wmata.local> <016401cb405e$8e396260$200b5f0a@user8459cef6fa> <4C6ECD3A.2040606@gmail.com> <4C6E704F.2841.E105D5@cclist.sydex.com> <4C6F164F.9080604@gmail.com> Message-ID: <AANLkTikywvVW2xiXtZnMdxD8pR7o6bNLtBfFvQcfm0U8@mail.gmail.com> On 8/20/10, Sridhar Ayengar <ploopster at gmail.com> wrote: > > Chuck Guzis wrote: > >> I pronounce a wide variety of IBM mainframe mnemonics. For example >>> BALR -> Bal-err. >>> >> >> I'd start to worry if you began pronouncing CDC 6000 CPU memonics... >> > > To be honest, the only reason I don't is because I've never written that > kind of code on a daily basis. No matter how unpronounceable the mnemonic, > I guarantee that, after a while at least, I'd start pronouncing them. > > Peace... Sridhar > How come one letter in the mailbox is mail, a bunch of letters in the mailbox is mail, but people recieve a bunch of "Emails" ?? Atari also used the VTOC. regards, sac From ploopster at gmail.com Fri Aug 27 07:56:07 2010 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2010 08:56:07 -0400 Subject: Mispronouncing acronyms In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikywvVW2xiXtZnMdxD8pR7o6bNLtBfFvQcfm0U8@mail.gmail.com> References: <B136EDE3DF5EC441B6F08E0A7AB872450AC800E4BE@EX2K7-CMS-1.wmata.local> <016401cb405e$8e396260$200b5f0a@user8459cef6fa> <4C6ECD3A.2040606@gmail.com> <4C6E704F.2841.E105D5@cclist.sydex.com> <4C6F164F.9080604@gmail.com> <AANLkTikywvVW2xiXtZnMdxD8pR7o6bNLtBfFvQcfm0U8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4C77B5E7.3050709@gmail.com> alan canning wrote: > How come one letter in the mailbox is mail, a bunch of letters in the > mailbox is mail, but people recieve a bunch of "Emails" ?? I don't make that distinction. I refer to multiple messages received via email as "email". Peace... Sridhar From christian_liendo at yahoo.com Fri Aug 27 09:47:13 2010 From: christian_liendo at yahoo.com (Christian Liendo) Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2010 07:47:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The Commodore 64 is back.. Maybe.. Not really.. Kinda In-Reply-To: <4C77B5E7.3050709@gmail.com> Message-ID: <69572.64445.qm@web113504.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> the 64 now means 64Bit Computer... Er ehm... yea.. http://www.engadget.com/2010/08/26/commodore-usa-announces-the-pc64-an-atom-powered-pc-in-a-replic/ When you think of it, you can now emulate an Amiga on your Commodore 64.. In fact you can emulate all the Commmodore computers in virtuals on your Commodore 64.. Here is the Commodore USA website http://www.commodoreusa.net From brianlanning at gmail.com Fri Aug 27 10:09:58 2010 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2010 10:09:58 -0500 Subject: The Commodore 64 is back.. Maybe.. Not really.. Kinda In-Reply-To: <69572.64445.qm@web113504.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <4C77B5E7.3050709@gmail.com> <69572.64445.qm@web113504.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <AANLkTi=Y==-0Ox1POEo9vXJ-yg43wKR1EHqO-Y_usN+P@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, Aug 27, 2010 at 9:47 AM, Christian Liendo <christian_liendo at yahoo.com> wrote: > the 64 now means 64Bit Computer... Er ehm... yea.. Here's an inside pic: http://www.geek.com/articles/chips/commodore-computers-make-a-return-this-year-20100319/ I think these will be a flop. What OS will they run? Windows? Linux? The new AmigaOS? What would really be neat is take some middle to high-end modern hardware with high end graphics and sound hardware, and write a new minimalist OS similar to the AmigaOS from scratch in machine language with as little extra crap as possible. Unfortunately, I think no one but people like us would buy it though, and for cheap once they abandoned it. Back in the 80s, there was apparently a lot of low hanging fruit as far as the hardware was concerned. That is, it wasn't technology that was holding hardware back, it was dinosaur businesses and market politics. This allowed a no-name to come in and create something truly 10 or more years ahead of the competitors. Now, it's different. The technology and hardware costs are the limiting factors. It would be practically impossible for a start-up or a resurrected commodore to create a computer that's really 10 years ahead of everything else. And for that reason, commodore is really just creating another PC clone in what is these days an awkward form factor, while trying to use nostalgia and that quirky form factor as their main selling point. Back then, no one did music, graphics, and video editing as well or at all. Now, everyone does it. Without a killer-app like desktop video was... destined for failure. brian From pat at computer-refuge.org Fri Aug 27 10:12:34 2010 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2010 11:12:34 -0400 Subject: Mispronouncing acronyms In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikywvVW2xiXtZnMdxD8pR7o6bNLtBfFvQcfm0U8@mail.gmail.com> References: <B136EDE3DF5EC441B6F08E0A7AB872450AC800E4BE@EX2K7-CMS-1.wmata.local> <4C6F164F.9080604@gmail.com> <AANLkTikywvVW2xiXtZnMdxD8pR7o6bNLtBfFvQcfm0U8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <201008271112.34813.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Friday 27 August 2010, alan canning wrote: > How come one letter in the mailbox is mail, a bunch of letters in the > mailbox is mail, but people recieve a bunch of "Emails" ?? I think that it has to do with "The Internets" and their phone having "the bigger geebees". I don't add an s to "email". If you don't get the reference: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FL7yD-0pqZg Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From christian_liendo at yahoo.com Fri Aug 27 10:14:15 2010 From: christian_liendo at yahoo.com (Christian Liendo) Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2010 08:14:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The Commodore 64 is back.. Maybe.. Not really.. Kinda In-Reply-To: <AANLkTi=Y==-0Ox1POEo9vXJ-yg43wKR1EHqO-Y_usN+P@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <19579.89763.qm@web113501.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Actually they are making NEW replicas of the C64 case.. Too bad they just don't make cheap C64 cases From doc at vaxen.net Fri Aug 27 10:23:06 2010 From: doc at vaxen.net (Doc) Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2010 10:23:06 -0500 Subject: The Commodore 64 is back.. Maybe.. Not really.. Kinda In-Reply-To: <AANLkTi=Y==-0Ox1POEo9vXJ-yg43wKR1EHqO-Y_usN+P@mail.gmail.com> References: <4C77B5E7.3050709@gmail.com> <69572.64445.qm@web113504.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <AANLkTi=Y==-0Ox1POEo9vXJ-yg43wKR1EHqO-Y_usN+P@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4C77D85A.2060506@vaxen.net> Brian Lanning wrote: > On Fri, Aug 27, 2010 at 9:47 AM, Christian Liendo > <christian_liendo at yahoo.com> wrote: >> the 64 now means 64Bit Computer... Er ehm... yea.. > > Here's an inside pic: > > http://www.geek.com/articles/chips/commodore-computers-make-a-return-this-year-20100319/ > > I think these will be a flop. What OS will they run? Windows? > Linux? The new AmigaOS? > > What would really be neat is take some middle to high-end modern > hardware with high end graphics and sound hardware, and write a new > minimalist OS similar to the AmigaOS from scratch in machine language > with as little extra crap as possible. You mean something like MorphOS? Doc From brianlanning at gmail.com Fri Aug 27 10:29:01 2010 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2010 10:29:01 -0500 Subject: The Commodore 64 is back.. Maybe.. Not really.. Kinda In-Reply-To: <4C77D85A.2060506@vaxen.net> References: <4C77B5E7.3050709@gmail.com> <69572.64445.qm@web113504.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <AANLkTi=Y==-0Ox1POEo9vXJ-yg43wKR1EHqO-Y_usN+P@mail.gmail.com> <4C77D85A.2060506@vaxen.net> Message-ID: <AANLkTi=DPPDAr7=xTiZB2WoP+JibsYLpBXLbtX4RyRM-@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, Aug 27, 2010 at 10:23 AM, Doc <doc at vaxen.net> wrote: >> What would really be neat is take some middle to high-end modern >> hardware with high end graphics and sound hardware, and write a new >> minimalist OS similar to the AmigaOS from scratch in machine language >> with as little extra crap as possible. > > ?You mean something like MorphOS? Maybe. I don't know anything about MorphOS other than hearing the name. brian From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Aug 27 10:45:29 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2010 11:45:29 -0400 Subject: Burroughs parts? (was Re: PROMS but from what ?) In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikMgMQQsZBz0bK+CBaafFSyjrMKjSAzCPQrc1tz@mail.gmail.com> References: <AANLkTinafZmZ_1JQQWviPYCtt58+AJv-e82mgaSPdSnb@mail.gmail.com> <AANLkTikMgMQQsZBz0bK+CBaafFSyjrMKjSAzCPQrc1tz@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <AANLkTi=S7pqDjajtr45iogRu0SAU79tX-M4nRnOd1z9M@mail.gmail.com> On 8/26/10, William Donzelli <wdonzelli at gmail.com> wrote: >> Is anyone restoring such equipment and looking for spares? > > I can use Burroughs parts. Are you interested in specific ICs or just Burroughs parts in general? I can count up part numbers and quantities if you like. I don't plan on discarding them, but my interest is in the fact that they are non-LS parts and I have 1960s DEC hardware that can use two or three specific parts. If these parts can help a Burroughs owner, all the better. Ultimately, they are just ordinary parts from the vendors of the day, but I know I'd prefer to have them properly badged with the 8-digit part number, just for aesthetic reasons. -ethan From evan at snarc.net Fri Aug 27 11:20:38 2010 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2010 12:20:38 -0400 Subject: Stan Viet passed away Message-ID: <4C77E5D6.5010504@snarc.net> http://www.legacy.com/obituaries/floridatoday/obituary.aspx?n=stanley-veit&pid=144676504 Very sad. From dm561 at torfree.net Fri Aug 27 11:36:41 2010 From: dm561 at torfree.net (MikeS) Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2010 12:36:41 -0400 Subject: Burroughs core memory module <-> machine References: <mailman.88.1282922064.1006.cctalk@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <D83D8D384C9248298FF397CB01424DC1@vl420mt> ----------------------Original Message: Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2010 00:30:24 -0700 From: Paxton Hoag <innfoclassics at gmail.com> Subject: Re: Burroughs core memory module <-> machine To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <AANLkTik=GrMyH34cMQahxmPcSYoraFQ5+7bS=e2a=7dD at mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > I have a core memory module from some Burroughs machine. It is a large > plug-in PCB about 16 inches square containing address & inhibit drivers & > such. Mounted to this is a near-same-size daughter-board containing the > sense amplifiers and the folded planar array of cores underneath a metal > shield. > > It is organised as 32 KWords, 20 bits wide. > > Any suggestions as to what machine this may have come from? > Burroughs made several successful solid state accounting machines before branching to full computers. Some of these had core memory and were made in the 1970s. ... Paxton ------------------------Reply: Indeed, specifically a few models in the E series, but those memories were *much* smaller; I think I still have one somewhere. In the transition from mechanical base10 systems to solid state binary systems some early E models used an interesting device called a "core counter" which was effectively a non-volatile IC-sized solid state magnetic divide-by-ten counter that emitted a pulse for every ten pulses in, a logically direct replacement for the mechanical cams and 10-position gears that most adding and accounting machines had been built around up till then. 32K x 20 sounds like it'd be out of a Medium or Large system (B2xxx or greater). From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Aug 27 11:40:17 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2010 12:40:17 -0400 Subject: Stan Viet passed away In-Reply-To: <4C77E5D6.5010504@snarc.net> References: <4C77E5D6.5010504@snarc.net> Message-ID: <4C77EA71.4060905@neurotica.com> On 8/27/10 12:20 PM, Evan Koblentz wrote: > http://www.legacy.com/obituaries/floridatoday/obituary.aspx?n=stanley-veit&pid=144676504 > > > Very sad. Oh no. :-( RIP Stan Veit. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cclist at sydex.com Fri Aug 27 12:02:58 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2010 10:02:58 -0700 Subject: Stan Viet passed away In-Reply-To: <4C77EA71.4060905@neurotica.com> References: <4C77E5D6.5010504@snarc.net>, <4C77EA71.4060905@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4C778D52.21010.503505@cclist.sydex.com> On 27 Aug 2010 at 12:40, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 8/27/10 12:20 PM, Evan Koblentz wrote: > > http://www.legacy.com/obituaries/floridatoday/obituary.aspx?n=stanle > > y-veit&pid=144676504 > > > > > > Very sad. > > Oh no. :-( RIP Stan Veit. > > -Dave 90+ is a fine old age; according to the obit, he died surrounded by family and friends after a lifetime of accomplishments. Not sad at all, but rather a life well-lived. --Chuck From ragooman at gmail.com Fri Aug 27 12:33:32 2010 From: ragooman at gmail.com (Dan Roganti) Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2010 13:33:32 -0400 Subject: Stan Viet passed away In-Reply-To: <4C77EA71.4060905@neurotica.com> References: <4C77E5D6.5010504@snarc.net> <4C77EA71.4060905@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <AANLkTinDyd8FkSvEteQ2cKbgVP_pa+o_r92zQCwHwqXk@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, Aug 27, 2010 at 12:40 PM, Dave McGuire <mcguire at neurotica.com>wrote: > On 8/27/10 12:20 PM, Evan Koblentz wrote: > >> >> http://www.legacy.com/obituaries/floridatoday/obituary.aspx?n=stanley-veit&pid=144676504 >> >> >> Very sad. >> > > Oh no. :-( RIP Stan Veit. > still can't forget his store, it was the 'candy store' for hackers RIP =Dan From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Fri Aug 27 12:36:16 2010 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2010 10:36:16 -0700 Subject: Burroughs core memory module <-> machine In-Reply-To: <D83D8D384C9248298FF397CB01424DC1@vl420mt> References: <mailman.88.1282922064.1006.cctalk@classiccmp.org> <D83D8D384C9248298FF397CB01424DC1@vl420mt> Message-ID: <7e49c468622f5fbefaa555845a97e069@cs.ubc.ca> On 2010 Aug 27, at 9:36 AM, MikeS wrote: > ----------------------Original Message: > Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2010 00:30:24 -0700 > From: Paxton Hoag <innfoclassics at gmail.com> > Subject: Re: Burroughs core memory module <-> machine > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > Message-ID: > <AANLkTik=GrMyH34cMQahxmPcSYoraFQ5+7bS=e2a=7dD at mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > >> I have a core memory module from some Burroughs machine. It is a large >> plug-in PCB about 16 inches square containing address & inhibit >> drivers & >> such. Mounted to this is a near-same-size daughter-board containing >> the >> sense amplifiers and the folded planar array of cores underneath a >> metal >> shield. >> >> It is organised as 32 KWords, 20 bits wide. >> >> Any suggestions as to what machine this may have come from? >> > > > Burroughs made several successful solid state accounting machines > before branching to full computers. Some of these had core memory and > were made in the 1970s. > ... > Paxton > > ------------------------Reply: > > Indeed, specifically a few models in the E series, but those memories > were > *much* smaller; I think I still have one somewhere. > > In the transition from mechanical base10 systems to solid state binary > systems some early E models used an interesting device called a "core > counter" which was effectively a non-volatile IC-sized solid state > magnetic > divide-by-ten counter that emitted a pulse for every ten pulses in, a > logically direct replacement for the mechanical cams and 10-position > gears > that most adding and accounting machines had been built around up till > then. > > 32K x 20 sounds like it'd be out of a Medium or Large system (B2xxx or > greater). > I think I forgot to mention the date previously, component dates codes are into 1979, somewhat late for core. LSI mem would have produced a smaller module by then. Either it was some special-requirement system or probably a legacy design/production issue. It might have been used as a single module plugged into a backplane with other system boards or with multiple modules plugged into a memory bus. High-end commercial construction (7400 series ceramic packages, 1% resistors, etc.) From oltmansg at bellsouth.net Fri Aug 27 12:35:19 2010 From: oltmansg at bellsouth.net (geoffrey oltmans) Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2010 10:35:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The Commodore 64 is back.. Maybe.. Not really.. Kinda In-Reply-To: <69572.64445.qm@web113504.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <69572.64445.qm@web113504.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <202870.74248.qm@web83916.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Judging from their pricing on their website, I'd say they're doomed to fail. think of it this way: it's a laptop type packaging without a monitor, for about the price of a laptop without any of the benefits. ________________________________ From: Christian Liendo <christian_liendo at yahoo.com> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org> Sent: Fri, August 27, 2010 9:47:13 AM Subject: The Commodore 64 is back.. Maybe.. Not really.. Kinda the 64 now means 64Bit Computer... Er ehm... yea.. http://www.engadget.com/2010/08/26/commodore-usa-announces-the-pc64-an-atom-powered-pc-in-a-replic/ When you think of it, you can now emulate an Amiga on your Commodore 64.. In fact you can emulate all the Commmodore computers in virtuals on your Commodore 64.. Here is the Commodore USA website http://www.commodoreusa.net From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Aug 27 12:37:52 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2010 13:37:52 -0400 Subject: Burroughs parts? (was Re: PROMS but from what ?) In-Reply-To: <AANLkTi=S7pqDjajtr45iogRu0SAU79tX-M4nRnOd1z9M@mail.gmail.com> References: <AANLkTinafZmZ_1JQQWviPYCtt58+AJv-e82mgaSPdSnb@mail.gmail.com> <AANLkTikMgMQQsZBz0bK+CBaafFSyjrMKjSAzCPQrc1tz@mail.gmail.com> <AANLkTi=S7pqDjajtr45iogRu0SAU79tX-M4nRnOd1z9M@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <AANLkTinJatwEqdNmWgxKeXkmzCtrhAo7GzGshB61RT3G@mail.gmail.com> > Are you interested in specific ICs or just Burroughs parts in general? In general. > ?I can count up part numbers and quantities if you like. ?I don't plan > on discarding them, but my interest is in the fact that they are > non-LS parts and I have 1960s DEC hardware that can use two or three > specific parts. ?If these parts can help a Burroughs owner, all the > better. ?Ultimately, they are just ordinary parts from the vendors of > the day, but I know I'd prefer to have them properly badged with the > 8-digit part number, just for aesthetic reasons. If you want some of my non-LS TTL stock in trade, that is fine. -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Aug 27 12:46:29 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2010 13:46:29 -0400 Subject: Burroughs core memory module <-> machine In-Reply-To: <7e49c468622f5fbefaa555845a97e069@cs.ubc.ca> References: <mailman.88.1282922064.1006.cctalk@classiccmp.org> <D83D8D384C9248298FF397CB01424DC1@vl420mt> <7e49c468622f5fbefaa555845a97e069@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <AANLkTim+voRfQoDPFBOMZPrGudXzPNeBCUpiWLxf=vLd@mail.gmail.com> > I think I forgot to mention the date previously, component dates codes are > into 1979, somewhat late for core. LSI mem would have produced a smaller > module by then. Either it was some special-requirement system or probably a > legacy design/production issue. My guess is that it is part of a military system. Burroughs was a large defense contractor (Unisys still is - and the only thing keeping them afloat). The military was still procuring core memory as late as 1989. -- Will From legalize at xmission.com Fri Aug 27 12:47:59 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2010 11:47:59 -0600 Subject: Terminal ID? In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 27 Aug 2010 05:51:28 +0100. <753B2468AEE34248995BE8083902F99B@RodsDevSystem> Message-ID: <E1Op31z-0006YG-B9@shell.xmission.com> In article <753B2468AEE34248995BE8083902F99B at RodsDevSystem>, "Rod Smallwood" <rodsmallwood at btconnect.com> writes: > ADDS Beehive? Umm... there is no such thing. ADDS and Beehive are both terminal manufacturers. Beehive had OEM agreements with other companies, so you see Beehive terminals with Cromemco nameplates for instance. I believe that ADDS also had OEM agreements with other companies which explains the ADDS terminal with the NCR nameplate. However, it is highly unlikely that one terminal manufacturer would OEM to another terminal manufacturer. > [removing implosion shield on CRT] > If you are not used to handling CRT's don't try this. You also create a safety hazard. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com/the-direct3d-graphics-pipeline/> Legalize Adulthood! <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com> From Arno_1983 at gmx.de Fri Aug 27 13:10:02 2010 From: Arno_1983 at gmx.de (Arno Kletzander) Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2010 20:10:02 +0200 Subject: Emulating a smart CRT display unit - ideas? Message-ID: <20100827181002.133840@gmx.net> "Chuck Guzis" <cclist at sydex.com> wrote: > For a really nice VGA display, check out the PICASO from SparkFun. > Coupled with a low-end microcontroller, that should give you pretty > much everything that you need, save for the differential receivers. ...and quite a lot I don't need, like colo(u)r and graphical "primitives" which aren't (drawing rectangles and circles,...), at a somewhat steep price. > Google "VGA microcontroller" for other ideas. I'll go looking for "BAS" (VBS) "Microcontroller", too, since that's probably the way I'm wanting to go in the long run (using a cheap portable TV as display), if the controller turns out to be intact after all. Thanks, Arno Kletzander -- GRATIS f?r alle GMX-Mitglieder: Die maxdome Movie-FLAT! Jetzt freischalten unter http://portal.gmx.net/de/go/maxdome01 From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Aug 27 13:25:28 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2010 14:25:28 -0400 Subject: Burroughs parts? (was Re: PROMS but from what ?) In-Reply-To: <AANLkTinJatwEqdNmWgxKeXkmzCtrhAo7GzGshB61RT3G@mail.gmail.com> References: <AANLkTinafZmZ_1JQQWviPYCtt58+AJv-e82mgaSPdSnb@mail.gmail.com> <AANLkTikMgMQQsZBz0bK+CBaafFSyjrMKjSAzCPQrc1tz@mail.gmail.com> <AANLkTi=S7pqDjajtr45iogRu0SAU79tX-M4nRnOd1z9M@mail.gmail.com> <AANLkTinJatwEqdNmWgxKeXkmzCtrhAo7GzGshB61RT3G@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <AANLkTikf-ML=P0NDuixVautJt+_8PGZRCJc_PB0LgfiC@mail.gmail.com> On 8/27/10, William Donzelli <wdonzelli at gmail.com> wrote: > If you want some of my non-LS TTL stock in trade, that is fine. I should be at the Maker World's Faire next month. I can bring the box. I don't know that I have enough empty tubes to package up that many hundreds of ICs. I would be especially interested in the following: 7474, 7410, 7420, 7430, 7440, 7450, 7453, 7460, 7482 (uncommon, I know, but even one or two would be useful as spares for an M220 in an -8/L or -8/i). There are a few "H" series parts in a Posibus -8, the 74H40 comes to mind. Those I haven't really seen in the wild in some time. -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Aug 27 13:30:51 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2010 14:30:51 -0400 Subject: Terminal ID? In-Reply-To: <E1Op31z-0006YG-B9@shell.xmission.com> References: <753B2468AEE34248995BE8083902F99B@RodsDevSystem> <E1Op31z-0006YG-B9@shell.xmission.com> Message-ID: <AANLkTin60ZJPTsm3tFQOz_Lw401=tcQa6mB0BOgUohAo@mail.gmail.com> On 8/27/10, Richard <legalize at xmission.com> wrote: > > In article <753B2468AEE34248995BE8083902F99B at RodsDevSystem>, > "Rod Smallwood" <rodsmallwood at btconnect.com> writes: >> ADDS Beehive? > > Umm... there is no such thing. ADDS and Beehive are both terminal > manufacturers. Beehive had OEM agreements with other companies, so > you see Beehive terminals with Cromemco nameplates for instance. I > believe that ADDS also had OEM agreements with other companies which > explains the ADDS terminal with the NCR nameplate. I saw some ADDS-branded terminals this year that were some flavor of re-ROMmed VT420 or something similar (they were from the parts counter of a local car dealership, AFAIK). I posted about them here but got no interest.. They were scrapped. I did save a couple of VT220 logic boards and PSU/analog boards from the same lot, though, since I have at least one VT220 that has a horizontal tearing problem. -ethan From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Fri Aug 27 13:56:44 2010 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2010 11:56:44 -0700 Subject: Burroughs core memory module <-> machine In-Reply-To: <AANLkTim+voRfQoDPFBOMZPrGudXzPNeBCUpiWLxf=vLd@mail.gmail.com> References: <mailman.88.1282922064.1006.cctalk@classiccmp.org> <D83D8D384C9248298FF397CB01424DC1@vl420mt> <7e49c468622f5fbefaa555845a97e069@cs.ubc.ca> <AANLkTim+voRfQoDPFBOMZPrGudXzPNeBCUpiWLxf=vLd@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6725f911856ca356d8bae35312372837@cs.ubc.ca> On 2010 Aug 27, at 10:46 AM, William Donzelli wrote: >> I think I forgot to mention the date previously, component dates >> codes are >> into 1979, somewhat late for core. LSI mem would have produced a >> smaller >> module by then. Either it was some special-requirement system or >> probably a >> legacy design/production issue. > > My guess is that it is part of a military system. Burroughs was a > large defense contractor (Unisys still is - and the only thing keeping > them afloat). The military was still procuring core memory as late as > 1989. > Although it is not rugged enough for field use, I was wondering about some special military or ground-based aviation-support system. I spotted it in the basement of a fellow who was into early radar and other military / avionics-type stuff. From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Fri Aug 27 14:30:00 2010 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2010 15:30:00 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Terminal ID? In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1008261812520.21900@cpumagic.scol.pa.us> References: <E1Oljsi-0004Zr-2M@shell.xmission.com>, <Pine.LNX.4.64.1008241556470.3337@cpumagic.scol.pa.us>, <AANLkTimeUKB=nNdF82yhkBroHJ3WdiUXdeLviiXeqih1@mail.gmail.com> <4C73D085.15754.1BE01CB@cclist.sydex.com> <Pine.LNX.4.64.1008261333050.18807@cpumagic.scol.pa.us> <4C76B1D4.2020803@hawkmountain.net> <Pine.LNX.4.64.1008261812520.21900@cpumagic.scol.pa.us> Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1008271526590.28158@cpumagic.scol.pa.us> On Thu, 26 Aug 2010, Mike Loewen wrote: >>> Can anyone identify these two terminals? >>> >>> http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/DSC06049.JPG One of the guys in MARCH has identified this as an ADDS Consol 980. The orange and yellow keys are distinctive. I haven't been to find a picture online, though. These terminals belong to a friend of mine, and will not be trashed, no fear. They are not currently for sale. The second terminal is still a mystery. Thanks for playing! Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Fri Aug 27 14:38:04 2010 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2010 14:38:04 -0500 Subject: Stan Viet passed away In-Reply-To: <4C778D52.21010.503505@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4C77E5D6.5010504@snarc.net>, <4C77EA71.4060905@neurotica.com> <4C778D52.21010.503505@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4C78141C.60505@brutman.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > 90+ is a fine old age; according to the obit, he died surrounded by > family and friends after a lifetime of accomplishments. Not sad at > all, but rather a life well-lived. > > --Chuck I think that's a good way to look at it. In 2008 I purchased his copy of the press kit that IBM sent around for the PCjr; some of it is posted on my PCjr site. He was great to talk to on the emails, and now I have a little piece of history to point at. Mike From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Fri Aug 27 15:28:31 2010 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2010 15:28:31 -0500 Subject: The Commodore 64 is back.. Maybe.. Not really.. Kinda In-Reply-To: <AANLkTi=Y==-0Ox1POEo9vXJ-yg43wKR1EHqO-Y_usN+P@mail.gmail.com> References: <4C77B5E7.3050709@gmail.com> <69572.64445.qm@web113504.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <AANLkTi=Y==-0Ox1POEo9vXJ-yg43wKR1EHqO-Y_usN+P@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4C781FEF.5080802@gmail.com> Brian Lanning wrote: > What would really be neat is take some middle to high-end modern > hardware with high end graphics and sound hardware, and write a new > minimalist OS similar to the AmigaOS from scratch in machine language > with as little extra crap as possible. That would be neat. I remember a friend and I made a reasonably serious attempt at writing a "modern" OS when I was at uni in the early 90s, taking some of the best concepts from Unix and what was then a fledgling Windows NT, and adding our own twists to it. I seem to recall we got most of the kernel done, along with rudimentary filesystem, disk and video drivers, but in the end drinking beer was just far too important. I'm not sure that I've got any of the code left, although I think I might still have armfuls of design notes somewhere in storage overseas. It was an interesting experience for sure. With a few more people it might have actually got somewhere, I suppose. Anyway, some form of collaborative minimalist OS project might be fun, at least the design side; it's years since I've done any PC assembler and I'm not sure I'd want to get back into it again. How about a minimalist OS running in an emulator of a m68k-based computer? > It would be practically impossible for a start-up > or a resurrected commodore to create a computer that's really 10 years > ahead of everything else. I'm quite a believer in distributing code, and in running code on as diverse range of devices as possible. If it can be assumed that everything has a network connection at all times (which perhaps won't be that unreasonable in a decade or so) it's possible to throw a lot of functionality onto "other machines out there" and make the system that the user actually interacts with quite streamlined. *if* that's the way things go, then technically someone could design and build a computer that was ten years ahead of its time - it's just that nobody would buy it, because it would be useless right now :-) cheers Jules From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Aug 27 15:03:24 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2010 21:03:24 +0100 (BST) Subject: OT : The new Big Trak In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimphabwxCx+9X92+FqBzRx2sxTAUtQvW6NCEz9E@mail.gmail.com> from "Brian Lanning" at Aug 26, 10 04:12:25 pm Message-ID: <m1Op598-000J3uC@p850ug1> > > On Thu, Aug 26, 2010 at 3:35 PM, Tony Duell <ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk> wrote: > > You can buy a modrn version of the Big Trak in the UK now. > > I had an original one here in the US. I also had the dump truck > trailer. It was one of the few toys (in addition to lego bricks) that It is rumoured there will be a trailer for this one too. The interfacr is different (the origianl one was a jack plug, the new version uses an IR LED), so the old trailer won't fit the new Big Trak. One of the things I intend to do is figure out just what that IR LED does (my guess is it's just a burst of pulses suitable for detection my an IR receiver module when you execute an OUT instruction -- the OUT instruction does not take a parameter). I will admit that I still play with some of my old toys too (using 'toys' in the accepted sense). In particular, Meccano (similar to 'Erector sets' I believe), The Philips EE and ME kits, and, of course, FischerTechnik. > I play with again and again for years. I may have to pick one of > these up. I have no idea if it's avaialble outside the UK. I can see no reason why it wouldnt be, though > > It's significantly smaller than the original, right? I don;t think so. This is not the BigTrak Jr, whcih I've not seen and whcih is a lot smaller. I don't have an original oen to compare it against, but my guess its that it's about the same size. It's well over a foot long, for example/ -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Aug 27 15:07:35 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2010 21:07:35 +0100 (BST) Subject: Should you correct production mistakes? In-Reply-To: <2459d18eef010fe9087e6f0bf9f5b724@cs.ubc.ca> from "Brent Hilpert" at Aug 26, 10 02:17:16 pm Message-ID: <m1Op5DD-000J3xC@p850ug1> [HP9815 PSU] > The capacitor in question is the 680uF unit on the output side of the > +15V regulator. The regulator (723) is configured with current > limiting. I have not analyssed the circuit in detail, but it appears that that +15V rail (oputput of the 723) supplies the +5V chopper control circuit. It's not clear what happens if that supply is missing, but since the chopper transsitors is PNP, I could see it being turned hard on, which would put 30V or so on the 5V line. No, I am not goign to try this practically. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Aug 27 15:11:39 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2010 21:11:39 +0100 (BST) Subject: OT : The new Big Trak In-Reply-To: <20100826140512.O98290@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Aug 26, 10 02:19:11 pm Message-ID: <m1Op5H8-000J3yC@p850ug1> > > On Thu, 26 Aug 2010, Tony Duell wrote: > > This is off-tipic for 2 main reasons : (1) the device in question is not > > even 1 year old yet and (2) it's not a computer. But I suspect many > > people here rememebr the MB Big Trak programmable toy tank from the early > > 1980s, and may even rememebr the Circuit Cellar article that involved > > modifying one. So anyway... > > Does anybody remember the guvmint hassles about it? ("But the control > circuitry of it could be installed in a real battlefield device!") Err, no... You are joking surely.. There was nothing particularlly new or cleaver in the originial Big Trak, otehr than it being an inexpensice toy. The principles of the control system were surely well known by then... > > > I can see one of the original ones from where I sit right now. In the top > box of that pile! > The accessory trailer is no longer around, which is too bad, because that > was what I used for "pen-up"/"pen-down" for playing with it as a large > format plotter. The O-rings that provided traction on the circumference > of the wheels are rotted away, and it sat for too long with batteries in > it, although that cleaned up surprisingly easily. > > Tony, > Do you want it? Yes please, but only if nobody else nearer to you wants it. I think shipping it would be expensive and it may well not survive (I am told the plastic axles break very easily, and the body plasitc is possibly brittle by now). I would much rather it was not wrecked by United Parcel Smashers or ParcelFarce, or ... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Aug 27 15:14:33 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2010 21:14:33 +0100 (BST) Subject: OT : The new Big Trak In-Reply-To: <AANLkTi=tnC80nk07sLYYUPrkwePVH2Yx56uEL0Q=LO+s@mail.gmail.com> from "Adrian Graham" at Aug 26, 10 10:23:04 pm Message-ID: <m1Op5Jz-000J43C@p850ug1> > > On 26 August 2010 22:19, Fred Cisin <cisin at xenosoft.com> wrote: > > > > Tony, > > Do you want it? > > > > If Tony doesn't, who else would like it? > > Perhaps cheeky of me, but I have one without the battery cover so I'd > love a scan of an original so's to make a new one... Note that the old and new battery covers are totally different. I beleive the old one had metal contacts, the new one doesn't (the 3 D cells used by the new Big Trak are fitted horizontally). Is it hte layout of the contacts that is the problem? I am pretty srue the original Big Track had a +/-3V supply for the motors coming from the 4D cells. In other words there were 2 contacts on the cover linking the cells in aprts. It should eb easy to see how they are wired inside the Big Trak (a google search will find a page telling you how to take it apart), anf thus deduce the layout of the contacts. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Aug 27 15:42:37 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2010 21:42:37 +0100 (BST) Subject: Terminal ID? In-Reply-To: <753B2468AEE34248995BE8083902F99B@RodsDevSystem> from "Rod Smallwood" at Aug 27, 10 05:51:28 am Message-ID: <m1Op5l5-000J4CC@p850ug1> > > ADDS Beehive? With a bad case of blue spot just like some DEC VR's get. > BTW I have managed to successfully remove the outer faceplate on a = > VR201. > You have to sacrifice it but the jelly like bonding underneath just = > peels > off to reveal a clean tube face giving a good display. Are you running that CRT without the outer faceplate? I am pretty sure that faceplate is part of the implosion protection system, and I would not want to sit in front of a CRT without it! -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Aug 27 15:17:55 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2010 21:17:55 +0100 (BST) Subject: Simulated telephone In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimBRcC_1KrdWYkQ22hF=iiRR4Ty2kuHabt2e4ER@mail.gmail.com> from "Jason T" at Aug 26, 10 05:28:45 pm Message-ID: <m1Op5NG-000J48C@p850ug1> > > On Thu, Aug 26, 2010 at 2:02 PM, Tony Duell <ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk> wrote: > > Alas not. It was made by a company called 'Computer Devices Inc' and > > claims to be a 'Miniterm 1203' Does anyone have any more infoemtion? > > No information to speak of, but I do have the same or similar model: > > http://www.flickr.com/photos/chiclassiccomp/455415489/in/set-72157606520513168/ Yes, that looks very like it. Do you have the cover? Mine has a plastic cover that hooks into 2 little brackets at the back and then comes down over the whole machine with latches at the front. There's a carrying handle on the front too, and you can store it standing vertically with the bck downwards. There's a littke compartment in the cover over the keybaord where yoy can store a spare roll of paper, a mains lead and an RS232 cable. > > I'll have to check for a numeric model # when I get home. IIRC I had > this one working off the coupler at some point. I am going to have to dive into mine again. I rememebr there being a couple of sets of jumpers (DIL headers with wires soldered between the pins) and I never figured out what they do -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Aug 27 15:46:03 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2010 21:46:03 +0100 (BST) Subject: Mispronouncing acronyms In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikywvVW2xiXtZnMdxD8pR7o6bNLtBfFvQcfm0U8@mail.gmail.com> from "alan canning" at Aug 27, 10 00:27:34 am Message-ID: <m1Op5oQ-000J4FC@p850ug1> > How come one letter in the mailbox is mail, a bunch of letters in the > mailbox is mail, but people recieve a bunch of "Emails" ?? I don't. I say either 'I've got 30 e-mail messages to read' (Or perhaps just '30 messages to read') or 'I've got a lot of e-mail to deal with tonight' or something like that. -tony From legalize at xmission.com Fri Aug 27 16:37:35 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2010 15:37:35 -0600 Subject: Terminal ID? In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 27 Aug 2010 14:30:51 -0400. <AANLkTin60ZJPTsm3tFQOz_Lw401=tcQa6mB0BOgUohAo@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <E1Op6cB-00033s-5x@shell.xmission.com> In article <AANLkTin60ZJPTsm3tFQOz_Lw401=tcQa6mB0BOgUohAo at mail.gmail.com>, Ethan Dicks <ethan.dicks at gmail.com> writes: > I saw some ADDS-branded terminals this year that were some flavor of > re-ROMmed VT420 or something similar [...] Wasn't this after ADDS was sold, however? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com/the-direct3d-graphics-pipeline/> Legalize Adulthood! <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com> From legalize at xmission.com Fri Aug 27 16:42:13 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2010 15:42:13 -0600 Subject: Terminal ID? In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 27 Aug 2010 15:30:00 -0400. <Pine.LNX.4.64.1008271526590.28158@cpumagic.scol.pa.us> Message-ID: <E1Op6gf-0004Uy-3H@shell.xmission.com> In article <Pine.LNX.4.64.1008271526590.28158 at cpumagic.scol.pa.us>, Mike Loewen <mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us> writes: >[...] The second terminal is still a > mystery. It has no id plate on the back or on the bottom? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com/the-direct3d-graphics-pipeline/> Legalize Adulthood! <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com> From legalize at xmission.com Fri Aug 27 16:54:37 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2010 15:54:37 -0600 Subject: Burroughs core memory module <-> machine In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 27 Aug 2010 00:30:24 -0700. <AANLkTik=GrMyH34cMQahxmPcSYoraFQ5+7bS=e2a=7dD@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <E1Op6sf-0008Bs-2d@shell.xmission.com> Speaking of Burroughs.... some pics y'all may not have seen before. <http://www.eecis.udel.edu/~mader/delta/erniepics.html> -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com/the-direct3d-graphics-pipeline/> Legalize Adulthood! <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com> From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Aug 27 17:12:14 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2010 18:12:14 -0400 Subject: Burroughs core memory module <-> machine In-Reply-To: <E1Op6sf-0008Bs-2d@shell.xmission.com> References: <E1Op6sf-0008Bs-2d@shell.xmission.com> Message-ID: <4C78383E.5070303@neurotica.com> On 8/27/10 5:54 PM, Richard wrote: > Speaking of Burroughs.... some pics y'all may not have seen before. > <http://www.eecis.udel.edu/~mader/delta/erniepics.html> Ernie!! He was one of the guys who hooked me up with a lot of DEC stuff when I was a kid, and snuck me into the DEC facility where he worked at the time. I got my wooden-topped "woody box" BA123 prototypes from him. He was the one who introduced me to RSTS/E, pulling me away from RSX-11M. Bob Mader and Mike Santiago introduced me to him. And there's a picture of Joyce in there! I had quite a crush on her back then, but I don't think he ever suspected it. ;) I hung out with Ernie and Joyce quite a bit in my teen years, before they split up. I'd go down there for dinner and then we'd hack on PDP-11s all night. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From nigel.d.williams at gmail.com Fri Aug 27 17:12:45 2010 From: nigel.d.williams at gmail.com (Nigel Williams) Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2010 08:12:45 +1000 Subject: Burroughs core memory module <-> machine In-Reply-To: <E1Op6sf-0008Bs-2d@shell.xmission.com> References: <AANLkTik=GrMyH34cMQahxmPcSYoraFQ5+7bS=e2a=7dD@mail.gmail.com> <E1Op6sf-0008Bs-2d@shell.xmission.com> Message-ID: <AANLkTinSb_GXqO3KT2V8EuUuBwY7ZMm686h+KHnFgw_x@mail.gmail.com> Thanks Richard, I am always on the hunt for Burroughs pictures. I'll add some recent ones I found too (these are from Brazil), includes one of the main front-panel of the Burroughs B6700 (so far the only direct close-up picture I have found) : http://www.retrocomputingtasmania.com/home/projects/burroughs-b6700-mainframe/gallery This next picture is also of a B6700 (New Zealand) but ties back to the Elliott 503 due to local Tasman history. http://www.retrocomputingtasmania.com/home/projects/elliott-503/dsir-503 Hosting the picture above yielded a welcome and informative contact from the person sitting in the picture! As I comment on the web-page, if anyone can identify anything in the pictures, particularly model numbers/names of peripherals that would be helpful. On Sat, Aug 28, 2010 at 7:54 AM, Richard <legalize at xmission.com> wrote: > > Speaking of Burroughs.... some pics y'all may not have seen before. > <http://www.eecis.udel.edu/~mader/delta/erniepics.html<http://www.eecis.udel.edu/%7Emader/delta/erniepics.html> > > > > From teoz at neo.rr.com Fri Aug 27 19:52:28 2010 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2010 20:52:28 -0400 Subject: MicroVax and OpenVMS for dummies Message-ID: <B964278C65914157A19B64A97DAD307D@dell8300> I finally got some terminals (VT525) and DEC MMJ cables for my MicroVAX 3100/85. I tuned it on expecting it to be dead and found a copy of OpenVMS V7.1 is installed on the MicroVAX (well after I tried both serial ports on the terminal and the screen came up at 9600 baud). I have never owned anything DEC or any computers that didn't have built in video, sound, keyboards so I have a few questions. What kind of reading material do I need to understand how these systems and software work? Is there a default login/password for OpenVMS V7.1 Is OpenVMS available for download? Is V 7.1 optimal for this old unit (I think it has the full 128MB but have to check, dual 2GB? drives and built in CDROM). I assume I can use some old PC or Mac software to login over the coax ethernet (does it do DHCP?) once I get some ethernet cables and I know what the heck I am doing. What kind of server was a MicroVAX 3100/85 anyway (files, applications, etc)? What are optimal setting for the VT525 to work with the MicroVAX (serial settings, color, lines, etc). Figured I would try some completely different systems last year and ended up finding the MicroVAX before it was turned into razorblades. Took me a while to get the other parts needed. TZ From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Aug 27 20:20:07 2010 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2010 18:20:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: MicroVax and OpenVMS for dummies In-Reply-To: <B964278C65914157A19B64A97DAD307D@dell8300> References: <B964278C65914157A19B64A97DAD307D@dell8300> Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008271757180.25410@slate.spiritone.com> Find the OpenVMS FAQ for info on bypassing the SYSTEM password. If trying to connect from a PC or Mac, it will be easiest if the system is running TCP/IP. Getting DECnet or LAT software for either platform will be difficult. The HP website will have PDF's and probably HTML versions of newer manuals online. Probably V7.3 as that was the last for the VAX. You will also want to check out the OpenVMS Hobbyist Program. For fun you might look at getting it on HECnet once you get your ethernet connection sorted. Nice haul. That's a very good VAX, and the VT525 is something I've lusted after. Zane On Fri, 27 Aug 2010, Teo Zenios wrote: > I finally got some terminals (VT525) and DEC MMJ cables for my MicroVAX > 3100/85. I tuned it on expecting it to be dead and found a copy of OpenVMS > V7.1 is installed on the MicroVAX (well after I tried both serial ports on > the terminal and the screen came up at 9600 baud). > > I have never owned anything DEC or any computers that didn't have built in > video, sound, keyboards so I have a few questions. > > What kind of reading material do I need to understand how these systems > and software work? > > Is there a default login/password for OpenVMS V7.1 > > Is OpenVMS available for download? Is V 7.1 optimal for this old unit (I > think it has the full 128MB but have to check, dual 2GB? drives and built > in CDROM). > > I assume I can use some old PC or Mac software to login over the coax > ethernet (does it do DHCP?) once I get some ethernet cables and I know > what the heck I am doing. > > What kind of server was a MicroVAX 3100/85 anyway (files, applications, > etc)? > > What are optimal setting for the VT525 to work with the MicroVAX (serial > settings, color, lines, etc). > > Figured I would try some completely different systems last year and ended > up finding the MicroVAX before it was turned into razorblades. Took me a > while to get the other parts needed. > > TZ > > From classiccmp at crash.com Fri Aug 27 20:44:48 2010 From: classiccmp at crash.com (Steven M Jones) Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2010 18:44:48 -0700 Subject: MicroVax and OpenVMS for dummies In-Reply-To: <B964278C65914157A19B64A97DAD307D@dell8300> References: <B964278C65914157A19B64A97DAD307D@dell8300> Message-ID: <4C786A10.7000601@crash.com> Hi TZ, Sounds like you've got a nice little system there. The 3100/85 should be one of the fastest CPUs used in any MicroVAX, so you should be in good shape with any version of VMS you'd care to try. If you need to get fresh licenses and media for VMS and a number of compilers and other fun "layered products," you should check out the OpenVMS Hobbyist Program <http://www.openvmshobbyist.com/> (www.openvmshobbyist.com) - and they have links to many other resources. Among them should be OpenVMS.org <http://www.openvms.org/> (www.openvms.org), which seems to be quite active. And you can find information on OpenVMS systems from HP here <http://h71000.www7.hp.com/> (h71000.www7.hp.com), and the old Ask The Wizard stuff here <http://h71000.www7.hp.com/wizard/> (h71000.www7.hp.com/wizard). I would also suggest you keep a browser window open to Hoffman Labs <http://www.hoffmanlabs.com> (www.hoffmanlabs.com) and his field guide to VMS / hobbyist intro. I thought Steve *was* the engineer behind Ask The Wizard, but I could be wrong about that. If you don't have it on the system already, you can get the full range of IP-based network services for VMS. The FAQs may have a quick way to tell and/or enable them - and if need be you can get it via the Hobbyist Program. But you should expect to be able to telnet or ssh into the box, and even use an X Windows display over the network. There are some "VMS for Unix users" type books out there, which wouldn't hurt for general concepts. Beyond that I would recommend you start by downloading a copy of the System Managers Manual (SMM) from HP's docs. And when you see something that reminds you of Windows NT or later, remember that they borrowed from DEC and not the other way around. :^/ Have fun! --Steve. From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Aug 27 21:06:42 2010 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2010 19:06:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: MicroVax and OpenVMS for dummies In-Reply-To: <4C786A10.7000601@crash.com> References: <B964278C65914157A19B64A97DAD307D@dell8300> <4C786A10.7000601@crash.com> Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008271901580.25410@slate.spiritone.com> On Fri, 27 Aug 2010, Steven M Jones wrote: > If you need to get fresh licenses and media for VMS and a number of compilers > and other fun "layered products," you should check out the OpenVMS Hobbyist Once you get in, do a "SHOW LICE", if it has licenses installed. If it does, you might want to save them. Zane From tsw-cc at johana.com Sat Aug 28 03:15:02 2010 From: tsw-cc at johana.com (Tom Watson) Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2010 01:15:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Terminal servers (Xyplex 1600 series) Message-ID: <993219.16616.qm@web112417.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Help... I thought it would be "easy", just hook it up and let it go. I thought I had the proper load file (xpcsrv20.sys) in the /tftpboot directory. TCPDumps seemed to indicate that I should have a proper file with the last 6 digits of the MAC address. When I did that, I got the dump to indicate that something was transfering, but it looks like to petered out a ways through. It then goes into a silly arp sequence for a router in the 172.31... network while my network here is 192.168.0.. Questions: 1) What files should be in the /tftpboot directory? 2) Can I get access to the configuration through one of the serial ports (which one)? 3) Does anyone have one of these beasts "working" with a Linux host? I like to get it up and running. I seem to have LOTS of documents on this, but none seem to be of the "step-by step" variety using a Unix (Linux) as the RARP/TFTP host. I would prefer responses of list, but will read then here if you like. Yes, these things are a bit old. Nobody really uses terminal servers these days, and while 40 ports is a bit much, I do have a bunch of serial devices I'd like to connect to. It looked like this would be a nice thing to get working. Thanks, ...Tom Watson From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Sat Aug 28 03:17:46 2010 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2010 10:17:46 +0200 Subject: Meet a Zuse Z23 Message-ID: <20100828101746.8fa9a330.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Hi. This week I had the pleasure to visit a Zuse Z23 on display in my city. The Z23 is a first generation, discrete transistor and diode logic, drum based machine with a small "cache" of core memory. It is hosted at the Fraunhofer Institute for Experimental Software Engineering. Here is the Press release regarding the Zuse machine: http://www.iese.fraunhofer.de/de/presse/current_releases/PM-2010-16-210610z23.jsp Ohh, if you can't read german (at all we are talking about a german computer ;-) ) here is the english version: http://www.iese.fraunhofer.de/press/current_releases/PM-2010-16-210610z23.jsp I took some pictures: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/bilder/Zuse_Z23/ The machine is in very good, but not working condition. I suspect it would be a huge task to make it operable again, like the PDP-1 restoration. But it could be done. There is a complete set of documentation, schematics, some spare parts, ... A former user of that machine from the local university explained the machine and its inner workings in detail to us. In one word: Fascinating! :-) BTW: There is a tube based Zuse Z22 in working condition on display in the ZKM museum in Karlsruhe (Germany). The Z23 is kind of a transistor reimplementation of the Z22: http://www.zkm.de/algorithmische-revolution/index.php?module=pagemaster&PAGE_user_op=view_page&PAGE_id=118 Pictures only in the german version: http://www.zkm.de/algorithmische-revolution/index.php?module=pagemaster&PAGE_user_op=view_page&PAGE_id=131 -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Sat Aug 28 06:14:42 2010 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2010 13:14:42 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Meet a Zuse Z23 In-Reply-To: <20100828101746.8fa9a330.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <20100828101746.8fa9a330.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008281305450.21051@linuxserv.home> On Sat, 28 Aug 2010, Jochen Kunz wrote: > BTW: There is a tube based Zuse Z22 in working condition on display in > the ZKM museum in Karlsruhe (Germany). The Z23 is kind of a transistor Don't speak of the Z22. I know the machine from the time where it sat at the Fachhochschule in Karlsruhe, and I know the former maintainer of the machine. It's a really nice machine (serial no. 13), about as old as our LGP-30. It was a nice masterpiece to have it classified as historical technical monument, so that it wouldn't risk to be scrapped or otherwise brought out of the "Land". What they are doing at the ZKM is really a shame! I suspect that it isn't in working condition any more, because they seem to run it (i.e. turn it on) every day for the whole opening hours (not really sure about that, but several visitors of our museum who have been there told us that it was running, but noone would explain or operate the machine). We did offer to take the machine, keep it in working condition and exhibit it to the public when it had to be "removed" from the FH. But they preferred to keep it in Karlsruhe, although it clearly was not the best for the machine. Sad story, but I hope that they won't completely ruin the machine. Christian From binarydinosaurs at gmail.com Sat Aug 28 09:33:47 2010 From: binarydinosaurs at gmail.com (Adrian Graham) Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2010 15:33:47 +0100 Subject: MicroVax and OpenVMS for dummies In-Reply-To: <B964278C65914157A19B64A97DAD307D@dell8300> References: <B964278C65914157A19B64A97DAD307D@dell8300> Message-ID: <AANLkTimfvmhHY3itoXE6V=a2TtKRTwWwuuLZ+JkQrsFn@mail.gmail.com> On 28 August 2010 01:52, Teo Zenios <teoz at neo.rr.com> wrote: > I finally got some terminals (VT525) and DEC MMJ cables for my MicroVAX 3100/85. I tuned it on expecting it to be dead and found a copy of OpenVMS V7.1 is installed on the MicroVAX (well after I tried both serial ports on the terminal and the screen came up at 9600 baud). both? There's 4 - 3 MMJ and a 25pin male for modems. Console port designation depends on the S3 switch at the back next to the halt button. > I have never owned anything DEC or any computers that didn't have built in video, sound, keyboards so I have a few questions. > > What kind of reading material do I need to understand how these systems and software work? VMS FAQ: http://h71000.www7.hp.com/faq/openvms_faq.html > Is there a default login/password for OpenVMS V7.1 Nope, but the FAQ will tell you how to do a conversational boot and hopefully bypass the password, there's 2 methods, one straightforward and one more difficult if the previous owners used an alternate authorisation file. > I assume I can use some old PC or Mac software to login over the coax ethernet (does it do DHCP?) once I get some ethernet cables and I know what the heck I am doing. Your life will be easier if you can get a media converter for the AUI ethernet port to change it to RJ45 then you can use a crossover cable to connect to a laptop. DHCP depends on which TCP/IP product is installed - there are several with the DEC offering being TCP/IP Services for VMS or UCX. $product show producd will (should) tell you. Of course, if you have a VT console you don't need a network connection :) > What kind of server was a MicroVAX 3100/85 anyway (files, applications, etc)? Office-sized server for in-house written apps, database server (Oracle), a metric butt-load of third-party written stuff. I used to be part of a team that wrote payroll/stock/SOP/POP/warehouse management and travel agent products. Languages available included C, FORTRAN, PASCAL, COBOL, DIBOL and the widely used DECforms. The 'famous' office product is ALL-IN-ONE or more often called ALL-IN-PIECES. Wordperfect was also available for word processing. > What are optimal setting for the VT525 to work with the MicroVAX (serial settings, color, lines, etc). 9600/8/n/1 for comms, any settings for colours or lines you like but 80x24 is 'standard', 80x25 if you use the host-writeable status line at the bottom. You won't get much web stuff for VAXen unless you roll your own though... -- adrian/witchy Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest home? computer collection? www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk From pat at computer-refuge.org Sat Aug 28 10:09:15 2010 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2010 11:09:15 -0400 Subject: Terminal servers (Xyplex 1600 series) In-Reply-To: <993219.16616.qm@web112417.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <993219.16616.qm@web112417.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <201008281109.15402.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Saturday, August 28, 2010, Tom Watson wrote: > Help... > > I thought it would be "easy", just hook it up and let it go. I > thought I had the proper load file (xpcsrv20.sys) in the /tftpboot > directory. TCPDumps seemed to indicate that I should have a proper > file with the last 6 digits of the MAC address. When I did that, I > got the dump to indicate that something was transfering, but it > looks like to petered out a ways through. It then goes into a silly > arp sequence for a router in the 172.31... network while my network > here is 192.168.0.. > > Questions: > 1) What files should be in the /tftpboot directory? > 2) Can I get access to the configuration through one of the serial > ports (which one)? 3) Does anyone have one of these beasts > "working" with a Linux host? I like to get it up and running. > > I seem to have LOTS of documents on this, but none seem to be of the > "step-by step" variety using a Unix (Linux) as the RARP/TFTP host. > > I would prefer responses of list, but will read then here if you > like. > > Yes, these things are a bit old. Nobody really uses terminal servers > these days, and while 40 ports is a bit much, I do have a bunch of > serial devices I'd like to connect to. It looked like this would be > a nice thing to get working. Read the "Getting started" guide from here, starting on page 83: http://computer-refuge.org/classiccmp/xyplex/maxserver/ For the 1600 and low-memory Xyplexes I use mx1500.sys. for the 1620/1640, I use xpcs00s.sys, which has more features. That's all you need in /tftpboot. To configure it, you want a serial cable plugged into one of its ports. I don't think it matters which, but I always use port 1. Go through the config menu and check the boot record it's using to make sure it's what you want, and then tell it to "Initialize server and port parameters". For booting, you probably want to set it to use DTFTP (same as normal TFTP), you can probably just set the dump mode to whatever, and use NVRAM for getting parameters. You'll probably want to just set a static IP address for the unit, as well. Once it boots, log in, and configure yourself up some ports. If you want to hook a terminal up to a port, to telnet to a host, no additional port config should be necessary. If you want to set it up for the network host to connect to the port on the Xyplex, do this: def port 2 access remote set port 2 access remote def port 2 speed 9600 parity none character size 8 set port 2 speed 9600 parity none character size 8 The first changes the saved config, the 2nd changes the running config. It'll autosave the configuration you set with the "define" commands to the NVRAM in the unit. Then you should be able to telnet from your host into port 2000+(100 * serial port number), and connect to the serial device. Eg, port 2200 will be its port 2, and port 2000 is its "console" port. The config guides have lots more details on how to do fancy stuff with it. If you're going to use it for machine consoles, I strongly suggest looking at the package "conserver". It was developed at Purdue, and we still use it there, and I use it at home. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Sat Aug 28 11:13:24 2010 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2010 18:13:24 +0200 Subject: Meet a Zuse Z23 In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008281305450.21051@linuxserv.home> References: <20100828101746.8fa9a330.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008281305450.21051@linuxserv.home> Message-ID: <20100828181324.721732c6.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Sat, 28 Aug 2010 13:14:42 +0200 (CEST) Christian Corti <cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> wrote: > What they are doing at the ZKM is really a shame! I suspect that it isn't > in working condition any more, because they seem to run it (i.e. turn it > on) every day for the whole opening hours (not really sure about that, but > several visitors of our museum who have been there told us that it was > running, but noone would explain or operate the machine). I didn't know this. Last thing I hered from Z22 #13 was that it is still maintained by its former maintainer and that this wizard has some apprentice that get tought to maintain the machine. I suspect they just power it up to get a nice glow from the tubes. This is disgusting, to use polite words. :-( -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From eric at brouhaha.com Sat Aug 28 11:19:24 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2010 10:19:24 -0600 Subject: Simulated telephone In-Reply-To: <20100824151928.W14939@shell.lmi.net> References: <4C73EA73.3020308@netscape.net>, <ebc6d21a65c27ce79d832fd74a31b44e@cs.ubc.ca> <BLU139-W159A1A73DFE537F04E69AEC9830@phx.gbl> <20100824151928.W14939@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4C79370C.6030902@brouhaha.com> Fred Cisin wrote: > Phone line simulators do exist. I use one that was a "project" in > Radio-Electronics? about 15 years ago. There was a two-part construction article "Build the Party Line" by Thomas E. Black in the January and February 1996 issues of Electronics Now. Unfortunately the source code for the firmware was not provided. The object code was downloadable from the Gernsback BBS, which I'm guessing is no longer in existence. However, I don't think it would be hard to write replacement firmware. It appears that it is now sold as a commercial product: http://www.digitalproductsco.com/partyln.htm Eric From rogpugh at mac.com Sat Aug 28 13:04:46 2010 From: rogpugh at mac.com (Roger Pugh) Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2010 19:04:46 +0100 Subject: OT : The new Big Trak In-Reply-To: <m1Op5H8-000J3yC@p850ug1> References: <m1Op5H8-000J3yC@p850ug1> Message-ID: <4C794FBE.3040003@mac.com> On 08/27/2010 21:11, Tony Duell wrote: > I would much rather it was not wrecked by United Parcel Smashers > or ParcelFarce, or ... > > -tony Dropped Hidden and Lost :-) From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Aug 28 13:29:46 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2010 19:29:46 +0100 (BST) Subject: Making flyback transformers? Message-ID: <m1OpQA1-000J4AC@p850ug1> As some of us know all too well, flyback transofrmers fail, and are often next-to-impossible to get. So I have been wondering if it's possible to make a replacement... There would appear to be 2 parts to this. 1) Desigining the replacement. I think we can assume a schematic of hte horizontal output stage it's going to be used in. But how do you calcualtor the number of turns on each winding? Since the origianl is likely ot be potted in epoxy (for HV insulation reasons), counting the turns there is impossible. Are there any good references (books, web pages, etc) on the desing of such transoformes and/or the design of horizotnal output stages? I would have thought something must exist, but I've never seen it. 2) Making the replacement. It owuld ahve to be vacuum pmpregnated, I think. But I believe some model engineers who make internal combustion engines make the own ignition coils (and vacuum-impregnate them?). Again, any good references on doing this? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Aug 28 13:33:31 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2010 19:33:31 +0100 (BST) Subject: OT : The new Big Trak In-Reply-To: <4C794FBE.3040003@mac.com> from "Roger Pugh" at Aug 28, 10 07:04:46 pm Message-ID: <m1OpQDd-000J3xC@p850ug1> > > On 08/27/2010 21:11, Tony Duell wrote: > > I would much rather it was not wrecked by United Parcel Smashers > > or ParcelFarce, or ... > > > > -tony > > Dropped Hidden and Lost :-) > > From IanK at vulcan.com Sat Aug 28 13:33:30 2010 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2010 11:33:30 -0700 Subject: MicroVax and OpenVMS for dummies In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008271901580.25410@slate.spiritone.com> References: <B964278C65914157A19B64A97DAD307D@dell8300> <4C786A10.7000601@crash.com>, <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008271901580.25410@slate.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <FF6AB92D97A23A409701CDBF66F03FCD03DC3D18D3@505fuji> And to answer one of your smaller questions: DHCP was not introduced until 7.3 (the current and last VAX distribution). Also, you can get an AUI to twisted-pair converter cheap on ePay or elsewhere. To log in without the current user password, look for "conversational boot" in either the VMS FAQ or (I think) on Hoff's site. Sounds like a great box. Enjoy! -- Ian ________________________________________ From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Zane H. Healy [healyzh at aracnet.com] Sent: Friday, August 27, 2010 7:06 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: MicroVax and OpenVMS for dummies On Fri, 27 Aug 2010, Steven M Jones wrote: > If you need to get fresh licenses and media for VMS and a number of compilers > and other fun "layered products," you should check out the OpenVMS Hobbyist Once you get in, do a "SHOW LICE", if it has licenses installed. If it does, you might want to save them. Zane From wbblair3 at yahoo.com Sat Aug 28 14:56:42 2010 From: wbblair3 at yahoo.com (William Blair) Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2010 12:56:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The reconstruction of the Konrad Zuse computing machine Z3 In-Reply-To: <mailman.3.1283014801.26851.cctalk@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <442107.84393.qm@web114611.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Video link of the unit in operation at bottom of page: http://www.zib.de/zuse/Inhalt/Rep/Z3/Z3Rep/index.html Google translation: http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=de&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.zib.de%2Fzuse%2FInhalt%2FRep%2FZ3%2FZ3Rep%2Findex.html From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sat Aug 28 17:59:02 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2010 15:59:02 -0700 Subject: Making flyback transformers? In-Reply-To: <m1OpQA1-000J4AC@p850ug1> References: <m1OpQA1-000J4AC@p850ug1> Message-ID: <SNT129-W808EE68C395CE051CC8A6A3870@phx.gbl> Hi Tony First, to determine the number of turns. These are flyback so the collector ( or plate voltage ) would not be enough. You'd have to measure the peak voltage on the collector ( or plate ) and then use the known voltage of the second anode. This would give you the turns ratio. This would, of course need to be done on a working coil. Next to determine the wire sizes and the primary turns. This is a distructive method. You just saw it perpendicular to the turns. Counting the primary turns is usually easy if the transformer is not potted. In this case, you'd need to grind the ends on a belt sander until you can see the turns separately You should be able to see the primary turns. As far as a vacuum, just use an old bicycle pump with the plunger and one-way valve turned around. An old cast pressure cooker would work well enough as a vacuum chamber ( never to be used again for cooking ). Rigging a lathe with a counter and you can wind the coil. These are all things I think you can handle. Dwight > From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk > > As some of us know all too well, flyback transofrmers fail, and are often > next-to-impossible to get. So I have been wondering if it's possible to > make a replacement... > > There would appear to be 2 parts to this. > > 1) Desigining the replacement. I think we can assume a schematic of hte > horizontal output stage it's going to be used in. But how do you > calcualtor the number of turns on each winding? Since the origianl is > likely ot be potted in epoxy (for HV insulation reasons), counting the > turns there is impossible. > > Are there any good references (books, web pages, etc) on the desing of > such transoformes and/or the design of horizotnal output stages? I would > have thought something must exist, but I've never seen it. > > 2) Making the replacement. It owuld ahve to be vacuum pmpregnated, I > think. But I believe some model engineers who make internal combustion > engines make the own ignition coils (and vacuum-impregnate them?). Again, > any good references on doing this? > > -tony > From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sat Aug 28 19:22:23 2010 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2010 17:22:23 -0700 Subject: Should you correct production mistakes? In-Reply-To: <m1Op5DD-000J3xC@p850ug1> References: <m1Op5DD-000J3xC@p850ug1> Message-ID: <d2f919b9c149c9d2c760746365215da2@cs.ubc.ca> On 2010 Aug 27, at 1:07 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > [HP9815 PSU] > >> The capacitor in question is the 680uF unit on the output side of the >> +15V regulator. The regulator (723) is configured with current >> limiting. > > I have not analyssed the circuit in detail, but it appears that that > +15V > rail (oputput of the 723) supplies the +5V chopper control circuit. > It's > not clear what happens if that supply is missing, but since the chopper > transsitors is PNP, I could see it being turned hard on, which would > put > 30V or so on the 5V line. > > No, I am not goign to try this practically. Some further circuit analysis indicates that if +15 were lost the +5 chopper would end up biased off: there are intervening driver transistors which need + drive V to turn on the chopper and the chopper has a low-value R between B-E, biasing it off by default. Regardless, the thing has been fine since it was manufactured over 30 years ago, including all the use it received during it's heyday. Strikes me as a rather low-risk situation. To each his own. While one part of me wants to correct it to the design intention, I'm not worrying about it. From teoz at neo.rr.com Sat Aug 28 19:38:14 2010 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2010 20:38:14 -0400 Subject: MicroVax and OpenVMS for dummies References: <B964278C65914157A19B64A97DAD307D@dell8300><4C786A10.7000601@crash.com>, <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008271901580.25410@slate.spiritone.com> <FF6AB92D97A23A409701CDBF66F03FCD03DC3D18D3@505fuji> Message-ID: <82861CD6BCB843D2AD0453CB4E717A18@dell8300> Ok, I got the password changed. Did a license lookup and got the following: units avail activ base-vms-(6 numbers) 60 0 a dvnetend 230 e 0 openvms-alpha-adl 800 0 100 ucx 200 f 0 multinet 200 f 0 (multinet is from a company other then DEC) Anything special about any of those? Where can I save them to? Do you need drivers for a SCSI zip drive? Once dumped can a PC or a Mac read the format on the disk? Can I install v7.3 on top of 7.1 without screwing anything up and without losing the license? TZ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ian King" <IanK at vulcan.com> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> Sent: Saturday, August 28, 2010 2:33 PM Subject: RE: MicroVax and OpenVMS for dummies And to answer one of your smaller questions: DHCP was not introduced until 7.3 (the current and last VAX distribution). Also, you can get an AUI to twisted-pair converter cheap on ePay or elsewhere. To log in without the current user password, look for "conversational boot" in either the VMS FAQ or (I think) on Hoff's site. Sounds like a great box. Enjoy! -- Ian ________________________________________ From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Zane H. Healy [healyzh at aracnet.com] Sent: Friday, August 27, 2010 7:06 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: MicroVax and OpenVMS for dummies On Fri, 27 Aug 2010, Steven M Jones wrote: > If you need to get fresh licenses and media for VMS and a number of > compilers > and other fun "layered products," you should check out the OpenVMS > Hobbyist Once you get in, do a "SHOW LICE", if it has licenses installed. If it does, you might want to save them. Zane From joachim.thiemann at gmail.com Sat Aug 28 20:27:44 2010 From: joachim.thiemann at gmail.com (Joachim Thiemann) Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2010 21:27:44 -0400 Subject: Article on first edition UNIX in IEEE Annals of the History of Computing Message-ID: <AANLkTikebJKcN-nF6C5ondjFeuA7v1zQwfsioA+fOr6_@mail.gmail.com> For those that have access to IEEE Xplore (or a decently stocked library), the latest issue of the IEEE Annals of the History of Computing has an interesting article on restoring the first edition of UNIX (from paper copies, Al Kossow is mentioned) by Warren Toomey. The abstract: "Until recently, the earliest versions of the Unix operating system were believed to have been lost completely. In 2008, however, a restoration team from the Unix Heritage Society completed an effort to resurrect and restore the first edition Unix to a running and usable state from a newly discovered listing of the system?s assembly source code." Interesting read! Fun statement I noticed, with respect to the "factory faults" thread that is ongoing: "Should bugs or faults found in the leg- acy software be fixed, or should the envi- ronment be modified to work around the problem?" (p. 78) Joe. -- Joachim Thiemann :: http://www.tsp.ece.mcgill.ca/~jthiem From jwest at classiccmp.org Sat Aug 28 21:35:51 2010 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2010 21:35:51 -0500 Subject: speeding up computers (was Re: Terminals...) References: <AANLkTinFops3Xw_cJhoLMY7Faiz25oBFTu0mMDkFBJHf@mail.gmail.com>, <AANLkTinisr7uORmuRhmk4jxii9C=AQtJsKNXoqaZ4nfZ@mail.gmail.com> <4C727E86.22890.11263C6@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <41DD5BA766AA47E981F6EFAF46D4A501@osa.local> Chuck wrote... > The real problem is windows setup. Microsoft's default is to leave > your "Documents and Settings", "Program files", temp folder and swap > space all on the same drive. And then, there's the ever-expanding > registry. I wonder how long it will be before the windows registry is stored entirely in MSDE ;) J From jwest at classiccmp.org Sat Aug 28 21:49:01 2010 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2010 21:49:01 -0500 Subject: Terminal ID? References: <E1Oljsi-0004Zr-2M@shell.xmission.com>, <Pine.LNX.4.64.1008241556470.3337@cpumagic.scol.pa.us>, <AANLkTimeUKB=nNdF82yhkBroHJ3WdiUXdeLviiXeqih1@mail.gmail.com><4C73D085.15754.1BE01CB@cclist.sydex.com> <Pine.LNX.4.64.1008261333050.18807@cpumagic.scol.pa.us> Message-ID: <1674E84DC3594F45ACA4F0911CA9FA9C@osa.local> Used to have one. I believe it is an ADDS consul 580 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Loewen" <mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> Sent: Thursday, August 26, 2010 12:38 PM Subject: Terminal ID? > > Can anyone identify these two terminals? > > http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/DSC05842.JPG > http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/DSC06049.JPG > > The second one, in particular, looks like some model of ADDS terminal. > > > Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us > Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From jwest at classiccmp.org Sat Aug 28 21:51:59 2010 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2010 21:51:59 -0500 Subject: Terminal ID? References: <E1Oljsi-0004Zr-2M@shell.xmission.com>, <Pine.LNX.4.64.1008241556470.3337@cpumagic.scol.pa.us>, <AANLkTimeUKB=nNdF82yhkBroHJ3WdiUXdeLviiXeqih1@mail.gmail.com><4C73D085.15754.1BE01CB@cclist.sydex.com><Pine.LNX.4.64.1008261333050.18807@cpumagic.scol.pa.us><4C76B1D4.2020803@hawkmountain.net><Pine.LNX.4.64.1008261812520.21900@cpumagic.scol.pa.us> <Pine.LNX.4.64.1008271526590.28158@cpumagic.scol.pa.us> Message-ID: <396483B257E544958F06FDB60886EB14@osa.local> the consul 580 that I had, also had the orange and yellow keys. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Loewen" <mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> Sent: Friday, August 27, 2010 2:30 PM Subject: Re: Terminal ID? > On Thu, 26 Aug 2010, Mike Loewen wrote: > >>>> Can anyone identify these two terminals? >>>> >>>> http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/DSC06049.JPG > > One of the guys in MARCH has identified this as an ADDS Consol 980. The > orange and yellow keys are distinctive. I haven't been to find a picture > online, though. > > These terminals belong to a friend of mine, and will not be trashed, no > fear. They are not currently for sale. The second terminal is still a > mystery. > > Thanks for playing! > > > Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us > Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ > From jwest at classiccmp.org Sat Aug 28 22:23:55 2010 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2010 22:23:55 -0500 Subject: dg 1200 queries Message-ID: <41BA3D6303C449DF88050DE3320181E7@osa.local> After some very minor cleanup and front panel fixing, the DG1230 seems to spring to life. I can deposit and examine different values from all four cpu registers, as well as small random ranges of memory. I've been skimming some of the DG docs I have, but I am coming up short on knowledge on a few points and was wondering if someone could shed light on any of these items or better yet, direct me to the appropriate manual that I can't seem to find. 1) In DEC & HP documentation, I can find a fair number of "front panel dittys" to perform basic tests in the absence of I/O devices. I can find no such short programs for the DG1200. Before I attach an I/O device (CRT, Cassette, or paper tape) I'd sure like to feel more confident that the cpu is on fairly solid ground. Unless someone knows of some docs on short front panel test programs, I'll just write a few short "copy range of memory from A to B, etc." programs myself and hand assemble them. 2) At the bottom of the backlane are several small pin connectors - P5, P6, P7, P8, and P9. Going from memory, but they are something like 2 rows of about 10 pins per row for each P connector. I can't seem to find where these are documented. Can someone point me to the right manual? They don't even show up on the backplane diagrams I have. 3) On most of my DG12xx cpu's, the backplanes don't have extra wiring, other than what is obviously going to a device. But on this one, Pin 10 of backplane connectors 2 through 12 is daisychained. I believe the signal is "VINH". I can't seem to find documentation on this. I'm guessing it has to do with allowing (or disallowing) memory cards in slots other than slot 2, but I'd like some better understanding as to when and when not this jumper set should be present. 4) Again, on most of my DG12xx boxes, the backplane has nothing other than I/O connections. But on this one, pin 96 (intp in) slot five is wrapped to pin 95 slot 16 (intp out). Likewise pin 94 (dhcp in) is wrapped to pin 93 slot 16 (dhcp out). I do have some idea what this is for, but I'd like a better understanding as to when and when not this jumper should be present. This has got to be documented/explained somewhere, but I sure can't find a discussion of it. Thoughts? I'm guessing this jumper is only required to get DHCP to the upper I/O card section on the "jumbo" version? Thanks in advance for any thoughts! Jay From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Aug 28 22:21:40 2010 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2010 20:21:40 -0700 Subject: MicroVax and OpenVMS for dummies In-Reply-To: <82861CD6BCB843D2AD0453CB4E717A18@dell8300> References: <B964278C65914157A19B64A97DAD307D@dell8300><4C786A10.7000601@crash.com>, <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008271901580.25410@slate.spiritone.com> <FF6AB92D97A23A409701CDBF66F03FCD03DC3D18D3@505fuji> <82861CD6BCB843D2AD0453CB4E717A18@dell8300> Message-ID: <p06240833c89f821c4ebc@[192.168.1.199]> Find the procedure to dump the licenses, then use TCP/IP to FTP the resulting file to another system. The UCX and Multinet licenses mean it's using either the DEC or Multinet TCP stack. What is special about these is that they'll allow you to run your system without worrying about your OS or network licences expiring. You get get the Hobbyist licenses, but they expire each year and are a pain to reinstall if your os and network licenses expire. Zane At 8:38 PM -0400 8/28/10, Teo Zenios wrote: >Ok, I got the password changed. > >Did a license lookup and got the following: > > units avail activ >base-vms-(6 numbers) 60 0 a >dvnetend 230 e 0 >openvms-alpha-adl 800 0 100 >ucx 200 f 0 >multinet 200 f 0 > >(multinet is from a company other then DEC) > >Anything special about any of those? Where can I save them to? Do >you need drivers for a SCSI zip drive? Once dumped can a PC or a Mac >read the format on the disk? > >Can I install v7.3 on top of 7.1 without screwing anything up and >without losing the license? > >TZ > >----- Original Message ----- From: "Ian King" <IanK at vulcan.com> >To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> >Sent: Saturday, August 28, 2010 2:33 PM >Subject: RE: MicroVax and OpenVMS for dummies > > >And to answer one of your smaller questions: DHCP was not introduced >until 7.3 (the current and last VAX distribution). Also, you can >get an AUI to twisted-pair converter cheap on ePay or elsewhere. > >To log in without the current user password, look for >"conversational boot" in either the VMS FAQ or (I think) on Hoff's >site. > >Sounds like a great box. Enjoy! -- Ian >________________________________________ >From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] >On Behalf Of Zane H. Healy [healyzh at aracnet.com] >Sent: Friday, August 27, 2010 7:06 PM >To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >Subject: Re: MicroVax and OpenVMS for dummies > >On Fri, 27 Aug 2010, Steven M Jones wrote: > >>If you need to get fresh licenses and media for VMS and a number of compilers >>and other fun "layered products," you should check out the OpenVMS Hobbyist > >Once you get in, do a "SHOW LICE", if it has licenses installed. If it >does, you might want to save them. > >Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | From n.theodore.matavka.files at gmail.com Fri Aug 27 06:46:41 2010 From: n.theodore.matavka.files at gmail.com (N. Theodore Matavka) Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2010 07:46:41 -0400 Subject: Video TECO Message-ID: <AANLkTi=X7mT=oSA6Gbg18Ns6OysYKopHCo26tFa5cNVm@mail.gmail.com> Hello, World! I took a cursory look through the archives at classiccmp, and I was disappointed to discover that the response to my having found the Video TECO tarball was lukewarm to negative. I understand that I may have committed a few mistakes along the way, but this was compounded by the fact that several other messages that I had written clarifying my reasons were not additionally sent to classiccmp. First of all, I had asked for and received permission from Paul Cantrell, my flying instructor, to have the source code. I had looked for it on sourceforge in vain, as the downloads section was completely empty. This was when I asked Paul to send me the source, which he did. In addition to this, I found a patch for Video TECO on another Web site, with a dead link---I also requested and received the patch. Only lately did I discover that the Video TECO tarball was available on CVS. Second, I understand the issue with licencing, and I take this moment to apologise. My actions were wrong, and I made the stupid error of not looking to see in the file whether there was a licence or not. My reasoning for publishing it under Sleepycat was the additional clause that if the software is bundled, the software it is bundled with should also be open source. I see now that I was mistaken, and I apologise for all the inconvenience it may cause. Third, I apologise for perhaps being unclear in my first post. For instance, Mr Alderson mistakenly believed or believes that I had implied that the original Video TECO (for DEC PDP's) had been lost. No, it hasn't, and yes, I've heard of it. alt.lang.teco? Seriously? There hasn't been a new post there in months! What there is is generic Viagra and "V1c0d1n" spam! Yes, maybe some of the other newsgroups I should perhaps have asked, but I thought I could have been excused from that as I did have the source code straight from the horse's mouth so to speak. Mr Stephens: there's a patch available that should fix your problems; it's on my Sourceforge site. Also: yes, I've made a few mistakes, but if someone would please help me on this project, it would be greatly appreciated. I am writing documentation for it (using Cantrell's very rough html file and some DEC manuals as a base), several pages per day, but I can't do the whole thing by myself. I mean, I can finish the docs by myself in a week or two if I work hard, but the rest of it might be a more dicey proposition. Cordially, Ted Matavka. From jlobocki at gmail.com Fri Aug 27 13:40:27 2010 From: jlobocki at gmail.com (joe lobocki) Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2010 13:40:27 -0500 Subject: using localtalk bridge Message-ID: <AANLkTimw7G7Mr1WPA0w9h=tebpOjbUnObiySi_B=78_D@mail.gmail.com> has anybody tried localtalk bridge ( http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=60290 ) in their mac setups? I was thinking of taking one of my old LC slabs and throwing a $10-$20 ethernet card in, throwing a phonenet dongle on the modem port, either loading the hard drive with a low os with all but the needed extensions and files removed, or the same on a floppy, and just using it like a router, with its only purpose being passing data between the apple ethernet segments and the apple phonenet segments(which at this time is only my SE as every other mac has ethernet). From rick at rickmurphy.net Fri Aug 27 15:28:21 2010 From: rick at rickmurphy.net (Rick Murphy) Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2010 16:28:21 -0400 Subject: OS/8 FORTRAN IV saving? In-Reply-To: <4C775DA9.1010200@neurotica.com> References: <4C769790.4040408@hachti.de> <201008270059.o7R0xHGi026586@rickmurphy.net> <4C775DA9.1010200@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <201008272028.o7RKSLLY028092@rickmurphy.net> At 02:39 AM 8/27/2010, Dave McGuire wrote: >On 8/26/10 8:59 PM, Rick Murphy wrote: >>>I seem to remember that it was possible to save a FORTRAN IV program >>>together with the FRTS runtime system as a runnable .SV core image >>>file. It seems that ADVENT does so... >>> >>>Any idea? >> >>That's the older version of OS/8 Adventure - it initialized then exited >>to OS/8. >>Unfortunately, the source for that has been lost, and I don't remember >>how it worked. > > I thought that was found a couple of years ago? Or was that > something else? What you found was the source to the original DECUS version of OS/8 Adventure, which when you loaded it just started running. No SAVE command, etc. >>I think it repeated the "PDPXIT" entry point in FRTS, didn't close >>units, then exited. Upon restore, it re-enabled interrupts and continued. > > Is it not possible to load a loader image (.LD) into FRTS, then > exit FRTS and save the whole shebang with SAVE SYS <filename> or > something along those lines? Not specific to ADVENT, but just in > general. These are very dusty neurons but I could swear I've done > this before, 25 years ago. Yes. If I remember correctly, there's a FRTS switch that tells it to do that. Looking in the OS/8 handbook, it's "/H". However, that causes FRTS to HLT after loading the program. Not what's wanted here. However, that's probably the hint necessary to figure out how to do this. Probably have to write an PDP-8 mode subroutine that's called after program initialization that constructs the CCB and exits, then jumps back to reinit the FPP and continue. That's label HLTNOP in FRTS. > I played with it for a while tonight and got nowhere. Eventually I > figured out that one must likely do "RUN SYS FRTS" rather than just > "R FRTS" in order to load the CCB (and thus avoid the dreaded "CORE > IMAGE ERR" when executing the SAVE). Then I load my compiled .LD > file into FRTS, exit, and do SAVE SYS <filename>, but my resultant > .SV files just hang. This is just a simple "hello world" program. Just trying a SAVE after it exits won't work as FRTS does some rather interesting mucking about with memory when running. You've got to re-initialize stuff. A normal exit (STOP in Fortran, Control-C) will restore things, close files, etc. then exit to OS/8. If you try to continue from there, it'll force a "USER ERROR 2". -Rick From c.murray.mccullough at gmail.com Fri Aug 27 20:56:13 2010 From: c.murray.mccullough at gmail.com (Murray McCullough) Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2010 21:56:13 -0400 Subject: Stan Viet passed away Message-ID: <AANLkTinVrmU6u-hW2DNuqNxiVxRPARvv=HEG7CTmiYd9@mail.gmail.com> I look back with great fondness in how Stan was such a help in digging up historical ?facts? that I used in my book?He will truly be missed. All my blessings. Murray :) From shieldsm at gmail.com Sat Aug 28 08:07:18 2010 From: shieldsm at gmail.com (Mike Shields) Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2010 09:07:18 -0400 Subject: using localtalk bridge In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimw7G7Mr1WPA0w9h=tebpOjbUnObiySi_B=78_D@mail.gmail.com> References: <AANLkTimw7G7Mr1WPA0w9h=tebpOjbUnObiySi_B=78_D@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <AANLkTi=J713j6zpUWC4bSqZt_6E5FeD8ZYvybzbyx7m-@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, Aug 27, 2010 at 2:40 PM, joe lobocki <jlobocki at gmail.com> wrote: > has anybody tried localtalk bridge ( > http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=60290 ) in their mac setups? > I was thinking of taking one of my old LC slabs and throwing a $10-$20 > ethernet card in, throwing a phonenet dongle on the modem port, either > loading the hard drive with a low os with all but the needed extensions and > files removed, or the same on a floppy, and just using it like a router, > with its only purpose being passing data between the apple ethernet segments > and the apple phonenet segments(which at this time is only my SE as every > other mac has ethernet). > I use it, running on a PowerMac 9600. The only thing I have on phonenet is a Mac SE, but with the bridge on the 9600, it's able to use file shares on the 9600 and file and printer shares on my (netatalk) Linux fileserver. I had some quirky issues getting it set up, but generally, once you get the settings right and reboot with it installed, it's pretty much invisible and works as advertised. They do talk about support on 7.1 and later, and then warn about it being "[not] completely compatible" with 8.5. I've personally run it on 8.1, 9.0, and 9.1. From ICS65 at sbcglobal.net Sun Aug 29 12:48:10 2010 From: ICS65 at sbcglobal.net (George Wiegand) Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2010 13:48:10 -0400 Subject: dg 1200 queries References: <41BA3D6303C449DF88050DE3320181E7@osa.local> Message-ID: <CF7AD53FBE05410393EC0D7286CDC74F@ecs40ks4zrtt7t> Concerning daisy chained jumpers: >From my rememberance of Nova III and IV computers, there are Interrupt priority jumpers that are daisy chained. I believe this is how it works: There is one interrupt line going to the CPU from all devices, so the daisy chain system is used to define the interrupt priority when 2 or more devices are interrupting at the same time by only allowing the device electrically closes, in the daisy chain, to the CPU, to be allowed to answer the "interrupt acknowledge" CPU instruction by ANDing the daisy chain line with the device's interrupt line and using other logic to disable the daisy chain line from continuing on to the next device. The acknowledging device would then be able to put its device code (ID) on the buss for the CPU to read. Of course, in other situations, when only one interrupt is activate at a time, interrupt priority can be controlled in SW by disabling specific or all device interrupts and by deciding whether or not to service an interrupting device. I don't remember if the data channels had a special dedicated interrupt line to signal when they were finished with a data tranfer or if they were treated as just another device. I don't have my DG books handy (in storage) to be able to find exactly what title covers this subject. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jay West" <jwest at classiccmp.org> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> Sent: Saturday, August 28, 2010 11:23 PM Subject: dg 1200 queries After some very minor cleanup and front panel fixing, the DG1230 seems to spring to life. I can deposit and examine different values from all four cpu registers, as well as small random ranges of memory. I've been skimming some of the DG docs I have, but I am coming up short on knowledge on a few points and was wondering if someone could shed light on any of these items or better yet, direct me to the appropriate manual that I can't seem to find. 1) In DEC & HP documentation, I can find a fair number of "front panel dittys" to perform basic tests in the absence of I/O devices. I can find no such short programs for the DG1200. Before I attach an I/O device (CRT, Cassette, or paper tape) I'd sure like to feel more confident that the cpu is on fairly solid ground. Unless someone knows of some docs on short front panel test programs, I'll just write a few short "copy range of memory from A to B, etc." programs myself and hand assemble them. 2) At the bottom of the backlane are several small pin connectors - P5, P6, P7, P8, and P9. Going from memory, but they are something like 2 rows of about 10 pins per row for each P connector. I can't seem to find where these are documented. Can someone point me to the right manual? They don't even show up on the backplane diagrams I have. 3) On most of my DG12xx cpu's, the backplanes don't have extra wiring, other than what is obviously going to a device. But on this one, Pin 10 of backplane connectors 2 through 12 is daisychained. I believe the signal is "VINH". I can't seem to find documentation on this. I'm guessing it has to do with allowing (or disallowing) memory cards in slots other than slot 2, but I'd like some better understanding as to when and when not this jumper set should be present. 4) Again, on most of my DG12xx boxes, the backplane has nothing other than I/O connections. But on this one, pin 96 (intp in) slot five is wrapped to pin 95 slot 16 (intp out). Likewise pin 94 (dhcp in) is wrapped to pin 93 slot 16 (dhcp out). I do have some idea what this is for, but I'd like a better understanding as to when and when not this jumper should be present. This has got to be documented/explained somewhere, but I sure can't find a discussion of it. Thoughts? I'm guessing this jumper is only required to get DHCP to the upper I/O card section on the "jumbo" version? Thanks in advance for any thoughts! Jay From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sun Aug 29 12:48:57 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2010 10:48:57 -0700 Subject: SparcBook Tadpole In-Reply-To: <SNT129-W4128DAC677437D7D2F89CAA3970@phx.gbl> References: <992230.97947.qm@web52604.mail.re2.yahoo.com>, , , ,,<SNT129-W35920212CCFBCE4CAABE45A3950@phx.gbl>, , ,,, <4C60BEAC.5080609@neurotica.com>, , , , <SNT129-W61D71C38D99D6E6DB2BFB3A3960@phx.gbl>, , , , <08fa01cb3967$3f6269a0$9201a8c0@portajara>, , , , <FF6AB92D97A23A409701CDBF66F03FCD03DC3E6EA0@505fuji>, ,,<SNT129-W11234506A4545FAB51FE17A3960@phx.gbl>, , , <4C634204.5070500@neurotica.com>, , <SNT129-W7A87A12CD210EFCB24952A3970@phx.gbl>, <SNT129-W4128DAC677437D7D2F89CAA3970@phx.gbl> Message-ID: <SNT129-W1E8AFCD384E69DF40A40CA3880@phx.gbl> Hi I pulled the NVRAM from my Sparcbook S1 to read it. I looked at the data and it doesn't look like anything was stored in it. The first 8 bytes are FF then it is 00 until 0407. It then turns to FF until 07F9 that is 80. It is then FF until the end. According to the spec sheet, the 80 would indicate that the clock oscillator is turn off. I wanted to make sure I'd not accidentally damaged some byte in it so I put it back into my Sparcbook. It booted fine with only the message that the clock needed resetting ( always there but I've not attempted to set it ). Is it possible that it is storing everything on the disk and not using the NVRAM for anything, only the clock function? Dwight From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Aug 29 13:27:34 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2010 19:27:34 +0100 (BST) Subject: Article on first edition UNIX in IEEE Annals of the History of In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikebJKcN-nF6C5ondjFeuA7v1zQwfsioA+fOr6_@mail.gmail.com> from "Joachim Thiemann" at Aug 28, 10 09:27:44 pm Message-ID: <m1OpmbU-000J49C@p850ug1> > Interesting read! Fun statement I noticed, with respect to the > "factory faults" thread that is ongoing: > "Should bugs or faults found in the leg- acy software be fixed, or > should the envi- ronment be modified to work around the problem?" (p. > 78) Why not both :-). Seriously, the big differnece (here) between hardware and software is that the latter can be trivially 'cloned', the former cannot. I can't easily make a copy of the video board in my HP terminal so I can have one with the factory fault and one without. But with software, you can (and inneed _muts_) prxerve a copy in the original state (which would imply having to modify the environment to ru nit if there are bugs), and also try to work out fixes to be applied to another copy. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Aug 29 13:21:31 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2010 19:21:31 +0100 (BST) Subject: Making flyback transformers? In-Reply-To: <SNT129-W808EE68C395CE051CC8A6A3870@phx.gbl> from "dwight elvey" at Aug 28, 10 03:59:02 pm Message-ID: <m1OpmVe-000J48C@p850ug1> > > > Hi Tony > First=2C to determine the number of turns. These are flyback so > the collector ( or plate voltage ) would not be enough. You'd have to > measure the peak voltage on the collector ( or plate ) and then use > the known voltage of the second anode. > This would give you the turns ratio. THis assumes you have a working flyback transformer of the same type. Fine if there's somebody else with the same machine and the test gear to make the mesurements, less fine otherwise. Let me re-state the question. The horizotnal output stage was designed once (I do not beleive for an instant that they simply tried random numbers of turns and random component values). The horizontal output stages of just aobut all manufacutrers seem to follow the same basic sort of design. So presumably there is a way of desinging them. But I can't find any book or web site that explains it. Is there one? [Suppose IU wanted to make a nrew CRT-based monitor. How would I set about designing the horizontal output stage). Knowign how to design such a stage, I think it would be possible to come up with a suitable flyback transformer -- not necessarily an exacy copy of the original, but one that would workl -- for a defecting machine. > This would=2C of course need to be done on a working coil. > Next to determine the wire sizes and the primary turns. > This is a distructive method. You just saw it perpendicular > to the turns. Counting the primary turns is usually easy > if the transformer is not potted. In this case=2C you'd need Flyback transofmresw are almost always potted for insulation reasons... and what do you mean by 'primary winding' (and how do you indentift it on the core)? A lot of flybacks had a multi-tapped winidng connectinfg to a suppl line through a diode; the collector of the output transistor; maybe a diode or diode/capacitro to ground; various +ve and -ve outputs (via diodes/capacitors), etc. I think tryuing to find the apporpirate bit of that wininf if you've cut through the transformer would be hard to say the least > to grind the ends on a belt sander until you can see the > turns separately You should be able to see the primary > turns. > As far as a vacuum=2C just use an old bicycle pump with the > plunger and one-way valve turned around. An old cast > pressure cooker would work well enough as a vacuum > chamber ( never to be used again for cooking ). Have you tried this? I am wondering just waht sort of vacuum is needed for this. > Rigging a lathe with a counter and you can wind the > coil. YEs, I've wound plenty of coils that way. But coils that have to stand high voltages are a little harder. You need to be careful that you don't ahve turns next to each other with a large votlage betweent them, or you will get breakdown. It's a related problem to widing RF coils (where you don;t want turns with large RF voltages betwene them due to stray capacitance effects). You my well need to put the turns down in a particualr order. > These are all things I think you can handle. I am not convinced this is the whole story... -tony From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Aug 29 15:01:05 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2010 16:01:05 -0400 Subject: SparcBook Tadpole In-Reply-To: <SNT129-W1E8AFCD384E69DF40A40CA3880@phx.gbl> References: <992230.97947.qm@web52604.mail.re2.yahoo.com>, , , , , <SNT129-W35920212CCFBCE4CAABE45A3950@phx.gbl>, , , , , <4C60BEAC.5080609@neurotica.com>, , , , <SNT129-W61D71C38D99D6E6DB2BFB3A3960@phx.gbl>, , , , <08fa01cb3967$3f6269a0$9201a8c0@portajara>, , , , <FF6AB92D97A23A409701CDBF66F03FCD03DC3E6EA0@505fuji>, , , <SNT129-W11234506A4545FAB51FE17A3960@phx.gbl>, , , <4C634204.5070500@neurotica.com>, , <SNT129-W7A87A12CD210EFCB24952A3970@phx.gbl>, <SNT129-W4128DAC677437D7D2F89CAA3970@phx.gbl> <SNT129-W1E8AFCD384E69DF40A40CA3880@phx.gbl> Message-ID: <4C7ABC81.2050300@neurotica.com> On 8/29/10 1:48 PM, dwight elvey wrote: > I pulled the NVRAM from my Sparcbook S1 to read it. > I looked at the data and it doesn't look like anything was > stored in it. > The first 8 bytes are FF then it is 00 until 0407. > It then turns to FF until 07F9 that is 80. It is > then FF until the end. > According to the spec sheet, the 80 would indicate > that the clock oscillator is turn off. > I wanted to make sure I'd not accidentally damaged > some byte in it so I put it back into my Sparcbook. > It booted fine with only the message that the clock > needed resetting ( always there but I've not attempted > to set it ). > Is it possible that it is storing everything on the disk > and not using the NVRAM for anything, only the clock function? I suppose it's possible but it'd be extremely non-Sun-like. Your Ethernet MAC address should be in there; is it coming up with a useful one, or all 0xFF? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sun Aug 29 15:08:22 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2010 13:08:22 -0700 Subject: SparcBook Tadpole In-Reply-To: <4C7ABC81.2050300@neurotica.com> References: <992230.97947.qm@web52604.mail.re2.yahoo.com>, , , , ,,<SNT129-W35920212CCFBCE4CAABE45A3950@phx.gbl>, , , , ,,<4C60BEAC.5080609@neurotica.com>, , , ,,<SNT129-W61D71C38D99D6E6DB2BFB3A3960@phx.gbl>, , , ,,<08fa01cb3967$3f6269a0$9201a8c0@portajara>, , , ,,<FF6AB92D97A23A409701CDBF66F03FCD03DC3E6EA0@505fuji>, , ,,<SNT129-W11234506A4545FAB51FE17A3960@phx.gbl>, , ,,<4C634204.5070500@neurotica.com>, , , <SNT129-W7A87A12CD210EFCB24952A3970@phx.gbl>, , <SNT129-W4128DAC677437D7D2F89CAA3970@phx.gbl>, <SNT129-W1E8AFCD384E69DF40A40CA3880@phx.gbl>, <4C7ABC81.2050300@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <SNT129-W441BAAC60D87C89193342FA3880@phx.gbl> > Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2010 16:01:05 -0400 > From: mcguire at neurotica.com > To: > Subject: Re: SparcBook Tadpole > > On 8/29/10 1:48 PM, dwight elvey wrote: > > I pulled the NVRAM from my Sparcbook S1 to read it. > > I looked at the data and it doesn't look like anything was > > stored in it. > > The first 8 bytes are FF then it is 00 until 0407. > > It then turns to FF until 07F9 that is 80. It is > > then FF until the end. > > According to the spec sheet, the 80 would indicate > > that the clock oscillator is turn off. > > I wanted to make sure I'd not accidentally damaged > > some byte in it so I put it back into my Sparcbook. > > It booted fine with only the message that the clock > > needed resetting ( always there but I've not attempted > > to set it ). > > Is it possible that it is storing everything on the disk > > and not using the NVRAM for anything, only the clock function? > > I suppose it's possible but it'd be extremely non-Sun-like. Your > Ethernet MAC address should be in there; is it coming up with a useful > one, or all 0xFF? > Hi Dave Do remember, it doesn't have any openboot either. The value at 07F9 is what one would expect to see on an uninitialize clock or stopped clock. Dwight From mdavidson1963 at gmail.com Sun Aug 29 17:42:32 2010 From: mdavidson1963 at gmail.com (Mark Davidson) Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2010 15:42:32 -0700 Subject: New acquisition... In-Reply-To: <m1OjFYo-000J48C@p850ug1> References: <4C624DD7.5040503@brouhaha.com> <m1OjFYo-000J48C@p850ug1> Message-ID: <AANLkTinPyc-dGiaAJESt8eo_MPB7e4ivqCj4_hZHkp0F@mail.gmail.com> Ok, I finally found the time to unbox the QX-10 and check the hardware. Everything seems to work, and I've posted a few photos here: http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=202813&id=734972117&l=6062bd8cff I've still got lots to go through, but so far the software consists of Valdocs 2, Valdocs 3+, dBase II, CP/M-80, Wordstar, SpellStar, MailMerge, PeachTree Edit, Peachtree Mailing List, QX-PC (I'm not sure what this is for), TModem... there's about 10 diskette boxes to go through. More to follow as I go through the collection. Oh, there's also a printer and a modem, which I haven't tested yet. Mark On Wed, Aug 11, 2010 at 10:57 AM, Tony Duell <ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk> wrote: >> >> Tony Duell wrote: >> > Nice machine. The QX10 is one of my favourite desktop CP/M machines. The >> > video system is based round a 7220, the serial port (IIRC) uses a 7201. >> > >> Using a uPD7201 for the serial port is a strike against it. ?High speed > > It depends on what you wnat to use that serial portr for. IIRC the s7201 > has various synchronous modes that can be very useful > >> modems that transport asynchronous data over a synchronous modulation, >> such as V.22, V.22bis, V.32, etc., have to use V.14 procedures to handle >> cases where the transmitting device is overspeed relative to the >> modulation, or the transmitting modem is overspeed relative to the >> receiving side. ?In the former case, up to one out of ten stop bits get >> dropped over the modulation, and reinserted on the receiving side. ?When >> that happens, or in the case that the transmitting system's modulation >> is faster than the receiving side (due to crystal tolerances, etc.), the >> receiving side is allowed to shave off a portion of each stop bit on the >> serial interface. > > Right,,, Now that I did not know. However, I would not think a QX10 was a > natural machine to connect such a modem to, > > -tony > From lbickley at bickleywest.com Sun Aug 29 21:51:38 2010 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2010 19:51:38 -0700 Subject: Should you correct production mistakes? Message-ID: <201008291951.55385.lbickley@bickleywest.com> I posted this last Wednesday - but for some reason, it didn't make the "cctech" list. I'm posting it again FYI... Cheers, Lyle ---------- Forwarded Message ---------- Subject: Re: Should you correct production mistakes? Date: Wednesday 25 August 2010, 17:20:22 From: Lyle Bickley <lbickley at bickleywest.com> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" <cctech at classiccmp.org> On Wednesday 25 August 2010, Eric Smith wrote: > I wrote: > > Had we found any problem analogous to that in the PDP-1 restoration, > > where the machine operated correctly despite a manufacturing defect, I'm > > sure we would have had a debate on whether to fix it. I think my own > > opinion in that case would be that we should leave it alone, but tag the > > module (paper tag attached with a short loop of string) and document the > > issue in the system logbook. > > > Fred Cisin wrote: > > In the example that I mentioned of an IBM MDA board, it worked for about > > 10 years, and then became intermittent. Even that, I would NOT consider > > to be "operates correctly", as the particular defect IS a defect, and may > > eventually bring the system down. > > I think the way that I would state it is that just because the system is > working correctly (at the moment) doesn't mean that it isn't broken. > > Part of the reason I don't think we'd fix such a problem in the PDP-1 is > that the PDP-1 isn't doing anything criticial. We can afford to have > downtime if a latent problem eventual causes a failure. If we've > properly documented that latent problem, we can check for it when the > system does fail, and fix it if necessary at that time. To be specific, during the original restoration, we checked every solder joint in the PDP-1. We found four bad connections. We then reviewed the implications of the bad connections in terms of function and reliability. The Team decided to only repair two of the connections because they could affect normal operation and demoing of the system. We left the other connections "loose". As Eric already stated, we documented everything and labeled all changes (fixes) we made. BTW: We have never experienced a problem with the "unfixed" solder joints ;-) Cheers, Lyle -- Lyle Bickley, AF6WS Bickley Consulting West Inc. http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Mon Aug 30 08:14:12 2010 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2010 09:14:12 -0400 Subject: Should you correct production mistakes? In-Reply-To: <201008291951.55385.lbickley@bickleywest.com> References: <201008291951.55385.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Message-ID: <4C7BAEA4.5040107@compsys.to> >Lyle Bickley wrote: >I posted this last Wednesday - but for some reason, it didn't make the "cctech" list. I'm posting it again FYI... > > I still have it in my Inbox: Wednesday, August 25th, 2010 20:56:10 - 0400 > <>[Snip] > > BTW: We have never experienced a problem with the "unfixed" solder > joints ;-) > > Cheers, > Lyle I keep meaning to ask about the TSX-Plus commented source code listing files. What is the current status other than the PDF files which are already available? Will the PDF files be converted to text and then to commented source code? At that point, will there be any attempt to add the changes from V6.4 to V6.5 of TSX-Plus? As far as I understand, the enhancements were mostly to add the Y2K DATE command for the user and enable rollover after 2003. But there may have been much more. Could you please comment on my questions, even if it is to respond that you don't wish to reply? Jerome Fine From ggs at shiresoft.com Mon Aug 30 11:02:43 2010 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2010 09:02:43 -0700 Subject: Cray 1 replica Message-ID: <3F9A2823-1F92-438F-8AC5-0552E0D08447@shiresoft.com> Hi, I just came across this and it's pretty cool. Some has built a somewhat functional 1/10 scale Cray-1 using a Xylinx dev board. Here's the link: http://chrisfenton.com/homebrew-cray-1a/ TTFN - Guy From spedraja at ono.com Mon Aug 30 11:21:05 2010 From: spedraja at ono.com (SPC) Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2010 18:21:05 +0200 Subject: Cray 1 replica In-Reply-To: <3F9A2823-1F92-438F-8AC5-0552E0D08447@shiresoft.com> References: <3F9A2823-1F92-438F-8AC5-0552E0D08447@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <AANLkTini+y5dj+R_WTkvUOkNxcocyoM07ncsp55vSG6L@mail.gmail.com> Just commented right now with a fellow. Really cool, of course. Sergio 2010/8/30 Guy Sotomayor <ggs at shiresoft.com> > Hi, > > I just came across this and it's pretty cool. Some has built a somewhat > functional 1/10 scale Cray-1 using a Xylinx dev board. Here's the link: > http://chrisfenton.com/homebrew-cray-1a/ > > TTFN - Guy From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Aug 30 11:24:23 2010 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2010 09:24:23 -0700 Subject: Cray 1 replica In-Reply-To: <3F9A2823-1F92-438F-8AC5-0552E0D08447@shiresoft.com> References: <3F9A2823-1F92-438F-8AC5-0552E0D08447@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <p0624080bc8a18afa0bf7@[192.168.1.157]> At 9:02 AM -0700 8/30/10, Guy Sotomayor wrote: >Hi, > >I just came across this and it's pretty cool. Some has built a >somewhat functional 1/10 scale Cray-1 using a Xylinx dev board. >Here's the link: http://chrisfenton.com/homebrew-cray-1a/ > >TTFN - Guy Wow! That is cool! I'd love to do a PDP-10 with a Mini-ITX board and KLH10, but haven't never gotten around to starting. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Mon Aug 30 12:09:38 2010 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2010 18:09:38 +0100 Subject: Cray 1 replica In-Reply-To: <p0624080bc8a18afa0bf7@[192.168.1.157]> References: <3F9A2823-1F92-438F-8AC5-0552E0D08447@shiresoft.com> <p0624080bc8a18afa0bf7@[192.168.1.157]> Message-ID: <001a01cb4866$24e061a0$6ea124e0$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Zane H. Healy > Sent: 30 August 2010 17:24 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Cray 1 replica > > At 9:02 AM -0700 8/30/10, Guy Sotomayor wrote: > >Hi, > > > >I just came across this and it's pretty cool. Some has built a > >somewhat functional 1/10 scale Cray-1 using a Xylinx dev board. > >Here's the link: http://chrisfenton.com/homebrew-cray-1a/ > > > >TTFN - Guy > > Wow! That is cool! I'd love to do a PDP-10 with a Mini-ITX board and KLH10, > but haven't never gotten around to starting. > > Zane > > > -- > | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | > | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | > | | Photographer | > +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ > | My flickr Photostream | > | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | The more I read about FPGAs the more I think I should really get into this area. I have no significant electronics expertise (at the resistor, capacitor and transistor level), but I did study digital logic at University so I can design combinatorial logic, I understand the basics of timing etc. What would be the best way to get into this without spending a lot of money? Anyone have any good book suggestions? Basic equipment needed, FPGAs to use etc? Thanks Rob From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Aug 30 12:25:50 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2010 13:25:50 -0400 Subject: Getting started with programmable logic, was Re: Cray 1 replica In-Reply-To: <001a01cb4866$24e061a0$6ea124e0$@ntlworld.com> References: <3F9A2823-1F92-438F-8AC5-0552E0D08447@shiresoft.com> <p0624080bc8a18afa0bf7@[192.168.1.157]> <001a01cb4866$24e061a0$6ea124e0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <4C7BE99E.2070005@neurotica.com> On 8/30/10 1:09 PM, Rob Jarratt wrote: > The more I read about FPGAs the more I think I should really get into this > area. I have no significant electronics expertise (at the resistor, > capacitor and transistor level), but I did study digital logic at University > so I can design combinatorial logic, I understand the basics of timing etc. > What would be the best way to get into this without spending a lot of money? > Anyone have any good book suggestions? Basic equipment needed, FPGAs to use > etc? I recommend picking up one of the Xilinx-based Digilent boards. They're inexpensive and very nice. Xilinx has a freely-downloadable toolchain (WebPACK) that works very well. It even has "real" Linux support nowadays. The free stuff supports all but the very largest of their FPGAs. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From uban at ubanproductions.com Mon Aug 30 12:27:06 2010 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2010 12:27:06 -0500 Subject: Cray 1 replica In-Reply-To: <3F9A2823-1F92-438F-8AC5-0552E0D08447@shiresoft.com> References: <3F9A2823-1F92-438F-8AC5-0552E0D08447@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <4C7BE9EA.5090406@ubanproductions.com> Maybe Al Kossow at bitsavers has something? --tom Guy Sotomayor wrote: > Hi, > > I just came across this and it's pretty cool. Some has built a somewhat functional 1/10 scale Cray-1 using a Xylinx dev board. Here's the link: http://chrisfenton.com/homebrew-cray-1a/ > > TTFN - Guy > > From cclist at sydex.com Mon Aug 30 12:40:23 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2010 10:40:23 -0700 Subject: Cray 1 replica In-Reply-To: <4C7BE9EA.5090406@ubanproductions.com> References: <3F9A2823-1F92-438F-8AC5-0552E0D08447@shiresoft.com>, <4C7BE9EA.5090406@ubanproductions.com> Message-ID: <4C7B8A97.18493.784761@cclist.sydex.com> On 30 Aug 2010 at 12:27, Tom Uban wrote: > Maybe Al Kossow at bitsavers has something? Nope. See earlier discussion on Erik's VCF: http://bit.ly/bIgyj2 I passed on a couple of names of friends who worked on the early Cray software, but I don't know if he ever followed up on them--or if they had anything (COS or UNICOS). --Chuck From uban at ubanproductions.com Mon Aug 30 12:44:54 2010 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2010 12:44:54 -0500 Subject: Cray 1 replica In-Reply-To: <4C7B8A97.18493.784761@cclist.sydex.com> References: <3F9A2823-1F92-438F-8AC5-0552E0D08447@shiresoft.com>, <4C7BE9EA.5090406@ubanproductions.com> <4C7B8A97.18493.784761@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4C7BEE16.3060502@ubanproductions.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 30 Aug 2010 at 12:27, Tom Uban wrote: > >> Maybe Al Kossow at bitsavers has something? > > Nope. See earlier discussion on Erik's VCF: > > http://bit.ly/bIgyj2 > > I passed on a couple of names of friends who worked on the early Cray > software, but I don't know if he ever followed up on them--or if they > had anything (COS or UNICOS). > > > --Chuck > > > Ok, sorry to repeat already covered suggestions which I overlooked... I did email a friend who may know some people who might still have something - we'll see. --tom From cclist at sydex.com Mon Aug 30 12:57:40 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2010 10:57:40 -0700 Subject: Making flyback transformers? In-Reply-To: <SNT129-W808EE68C395CE051CC8A6A3870@phx.gbl> References: <m1OpQA1-000J4AC@p850ug1>, <SNT129-W808EE68C395CE051CC8A6A3870@phx.gbl> Message-ID: <4C7B8EA4.29617.88173B@cclist.sydex.com> There is this article on FBT design from TI that might be helpful: http://focus.ti.com/lit/ml/slup127/slup127.pdf There's also this from the SMPSU folks: http://switchmode-notebook.blogspot.com/2010/07/designing-secondary- windings-of-flyback.html --Chuck From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Aug 30 14:12:04 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2010 15:12:04 -0400 Subject: Getting started with programmable logic, was Re: Cray 1 replica In-Reply-To: <4C7BE99E.2070005@neurotica.com> References: <3F9A2823-1F92-438F-8AC5-0552E0D08447@shiresoft.com> <p0624080bc8a18afa0bf7@192.168.1.157> <001a01cb4866$24e061a0$6ea124e0$@ntlworld.com> <4C7BE99E.2070005@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <AANLkTikjqHMQyipBi9YWzcVgsR=0e-z02iJSf-uw1wEC@mail.gmail.com> On 8/30/10, Dave McGuire <mcguire at neurotica.com> wrote: > On 8/30/10 1:09 PM, Rob Jarratt wrote: >> The more I read about FPGAs the more I think I should really get into this >> area. I'm in the same boat - I have an older Spartan FPGA on an IOB6120, but I've done little with it other than stare at the source with vague comprehension. > I recommend picking up one of the Xilinx-based Digilent boards. > They're inexpensive and very nice. Before the Cray-1 replica post, I was already looking at the Diligent boards because of the project that does arcade machine emulation on them (the example I saw was with one of the line of Diligent Spartan 3E boards, running Asteroids or Pac-Man, etc). > Xilinx has a freely-downloadable > toolchain (WebPACK) that works very well. It even has "real" Linux > support nowadays. Excellent. For me, Linux development support is 100% essential. I'm not likely to bother to get started if I have to set up a new environment just to play with toys (I'm already set for Arduino and Makerbot hacking from my CentOS laptop). > The free stuff supports all but the very largest of > their FPGAs. Can you be a little more specific? What counts as "the very largest"? I am, in fact, a bit muddled about which Diligent board would be a good buy. I see prices between $100 and $200 for boards with various features, but besides just buying the most expensive board because "of course" it will have the most extras (attached RAM amount, gate count, etc), I'm not sure what to get to be able to take advantage of what appears to be an active pool of Diligent-based projects (I've encountered two just in the past 10 days). I've seen gate counts like 100K, 250K, 500K, and I've seen model numbers like the "Spartan 3E-1600" and am not quite sure what maps to what. Could someone who owns a Diligent board provide any information about variations from model to model and what features are "must haves"? Thanks, -ethan From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 30 14:45:57 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2010 20:45:57 +0100 (BST) Subject: Making flyback transformers? In-Reply-To: <4C7B8EA4.29617.88173B@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Aug 30, 10 10:57:40 am Message-ID: <m1OqAIr-000J49C@p850ug1> > > There is this article on FBT design from TI that might be helpful: > > http://focus.ti.com/lit/ml/slup127/slup127.pdf > > There's also this from the SMPSU folks: > > http://switchmode-notebook.blogspot.com/2010/07/designing-secondary- > windings-of-flyback.html Thanks, I will take a look at said references... -tony From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Mon Aug 30 15:06:28 2010 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2010 16:06:28 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Wanted: HP 7970E Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1008301604440.30186@cpumagic.scol.pa.us> I'm still looking for an HP 7970E 9-track tape drive and a 13183A interface card. If you know of one available (preferably in working order), please let me know, off-list. Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Mon Aug 30 15:16:55 2010 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2010 22:16:55 +0200 Subject: Wanted: HP 7970E In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1008301604440.30186@cpumagic.scol.pa.us> References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1008301604440.30186@cpumagic.scol.pa.us> Message-ID: <FD9ED5B316BC4E5E8AFDB5155D678502@xp1800> > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Namens Mike Loewen > Verzonden: maandag 30 augustus 2010 22:06 > Aan: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Onderwerp: Wanted: HP 7970E > > > I'm still looking for an HP 7970E 9-track tape drive and > a 13183A interface card. If you know of one available > (preferably in working order), please let me know, off-list. > > > Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us > Old Technology > http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ Me too, but only in Europe and I do have the interface.. -Rik From legalize at xmission.com Mon Aug 30 15:41:32 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2010 14:41:32 -0600 Subject: Getting started with programmable logic, was Re: Cray 1 replica In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 30 Aug 2010 15:12:04 -0400. <AANLkTikjqHMQyipBi9YWzcVgsR=0e-z02iJSf-uw1wEC@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <E1OqBAa-0005t9-8g@shell.xmission.com> In article <AANLkTikjqHMQyipBi9YWzcVgsR=0e-z02iJSf-uw1wEC at mail.gmail.com>, Ethan Dicks <ethan.dicks at gmail.com> writes: > I've seen gate counts like 100K, 250K, 500K, and I've seen model > numbers like the "Spartan 3E-1600" and am not quite sure what maps to > what. The gate count maps to the particular Spartan3 chip on the board. This data sheet should help you differentiate the chips: <http://www.xilinx.com/support/documentation/data_sheets/ds635.pdf> -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com/the-direct3d-graphics-pipeline/> Legalize Adulthood! <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com> From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Aug 30 16:43:13 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2010 17:43:13 -0400 Subject: Getting started with programmable logic, was Re: Cray 1 replica In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikjqHMQyipBi9YWzcVgsR=0e-z02iJSf-uw1wEC@mail.gmail.com> References: <3F9A2823-1F92-438F-8AC5-0552E0D08447@shiresoft.com> <p0624080bc8a18afa0bf7@192.168.1.157> <001a01cb4866$24e061a0$6ea124e0$@ntlworld.com> <4C7BE99E.2070005@neurotica.com> <AANLkTikjqHMQyipBi9YWzcVgsR=0e-z02iJSf-uw1wEC@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4C7C25F1.7070900@neurotica.com> On 8/30/10 3:12 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> toolchain (WebPACK) that works very well. It even has "real" Linux >> support nowadays. > > Excellent. For me, Linux development support is 100% essential. I'm > not likely to bother to get started if I have to set up a new > environment just to play with toys (I'm already set for Arduino and > Makerbot hacking from my CentOS laptop). > >> The free stuff supports all but the very largest of >> their FPGAs. > > Can you be a little more specific? What counts as "the very largest"? I don't know where the cutoff point is, but it's big. If you want to design with a monstrosity of an FPGA that has over a thousand pins, one or more integrated (not array-implemented) PowerPC CPUs and GigE controllers, and carries a single-unit price tag in the hundreds of dollars as "used pull, needs reballing, as-is" on eBay, then the free WebPACK probably won't do it. ;) > I am, in fact, a bit muddled about which Diligent board would be a > good buy. I see prices between $100 and $200 for boards with various > features, but besides just buying the most expensive board because "of > course" it will have the most extras (attached RAM amount, gate count, > etc), I'm not sure what to get to be able to take advantage of what > appears to be an active pool of Diligent-based projects (I've > encountered two just in the past 10 days). I have an S3BOARD with the XC3S1000 (1,000,000-gate) chip upgrade. The board is very "friendly" and has flexible I/O that's easy to deal with, and they have a line of "expansion" boards that plug onto its connectors, that give you things like solder-type and solderless breadboard areas, some analog I/O, etc etc. I think it's the best bang for the buck. It has plenty of onboard goodies (RAM, PS/2 kbd, VGA, etc), without being "too much" to get in the way of actually using the FPGA's pins for your own stuff. This is it: http://digilentinc.com/Products/Detail.cfm?Prod=S3BOARD It comes with extensive documentation including schematics, and lots of other stuff like "here's how you generate a VGA signal" and "here's how you interface to a PS/2 keyboard, and here are all the PS/2 key press/release codes". The current price is $109, plus $50 for the million-gate chip upgrade. I have the board manual handy in PDF format; let me know if you'd like a copy to study. I'd been out of the FPGA world for a couple of years, but got back into it early this year. The new Linux-based WebPACK software is nice, but I was annoyed to discover that my very expensive USB JTAG module was been desupported while I was away. Fortunately, new ones are nowhere near as expensive as they used to be. > I've seen gate counts like 100K, 250K, 500K, and I've seen model > numbers like the "Spartan 3E-1600" and am not quite sure what maps to > what. Could someone who owns a Diligent board provide any information > about variations from model to model and what features are "must > haves"? As far as "must haves", well, that depends on what you want to do. ;) Personally I like PS/2 keyboard interfaces and VGA connectors with attached DAC networks. Attached SRAM is handy. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From jws at jwsss.com Sun Aug 29 04:12:10 2010 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2010 02:12:10 -0700 Subject: Video TECO In-Reply-To: <AANLkTi=X7mT=oSA6Gbg18Ns6OysYKopHCo26tFa5cNVm@mail.gmail.com> References: <AANLkTi=X7mT=oSA6Gbg18Ns6OysYKopHCo26tFa5cNVm@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4C7A246A.1030703@jwsss.com> Thanks Ted, I found that the error is in the original. I was interested in firing it off and putting it aside as a tool, and when it didn't compile, I figured I'd note the problem. Didn't waste further bandwidth here pointing out the other things due to the postings you pointed out. I'm glad you picked it back up, and pointed out that there was a copy. I worked on systems with teco, and it would be nice to see what this one does. I saw the problem looked to be related to what appeared to be something related to display on Windows or whatever, and didn't pursue it. Glad you did. Jim > Mr Stephens: there's a patch available that should fix your problems; > it's on my Sourceforge site. > > Also: yes, I've made a few mistakes, but if someone would please help > me on this project, it would be greatly appreciated. I am writing > documentation for it (using Cantrell's very rough html file and some > DEC manuals as a base), several pages per day, but I can't do the > whole thing by myself. I mean, I can finish the docs by myself in a > week or two if I work hard, but the rest of it might be a more dicey > proposition. > > Cordially, > > Ted Matavka. > > > From pinball at telus.net Sun Aug 29 20:38:29 2010 From: pinball at telus.net (John Robertson) Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2010 18:38:29 -0700 Subject: Making flyback transformers? In-Reply-To: <m1OpQA1-000J4AC@p850ug1> References: <m1OpQA1-000J4AC@p850ug1> Message-ID: <4C7B0B95.80801@telus.net> Tony Duell wrote: > As some of us know all too well, flyback transofrmers fail, and are often > next-to-impossible to get. So I have been wondering if it's possible to > make a replacement... > > There would appear to be 2 parts to this. > > 1) Desigining the replacement. I think we can assume a schematic of hte > horizontal output stage it's going to be used in. But how do you > calcualtor the number of turns on each winding? Since the origianl is > likely ot be potted in epoxy (for HV insulation reasons), counting the > turns there is impossible. > > Are there any good references (books, web pages, etc) on the desing of > such transoformes and/or the design of horizotnal output stages? I would > have thought something must exist, but I've never seen it. > > 2) Making the replacement. It owuld ahve to be vacuum pmpregnated, I > think. But I believe some model engineers who make internal combustion > engines make the own ignition coils (and vacuum-impregnate them?). Again, > any good references on doing this? > > -tony > > > Oddly enough, vintage TVs using pictures tubes of the same size as the monitors you are trying to repair often have flybacks that could be used with a bit of tinkering. You need only a few voltages out, and if you know if the original monitor was tube or solid state then you know somewhat what vintage TVs to hunt for (thrift stores/flea markets). You also need to find one that has similar horizontal and vertical yoke resistances to your monitor, as well as the B+. If you find these then flybacks are somewhat interchangable with some mucking around to get the pinout to match your monitor requirements. Due to the frequency these are running at a CGA monitor yoke I would expect that the impedance should be similar to the impedance of a similar sized TV yoke with similar resistance windings to your monitor. Schematics of your monitor and the TV you are swiping the flyback from would be a big help... Flybacks design is available (perhaps at a cost) from places like: http://www.innovatia.com/Design_Center/mag_desn.htm Which I found that as an early choice using the following search term "flyback transformer theory" in google. A bit further down there are a few PDFs on desinging Flybacks. You can test flybacks using Bob Parker's Blue Ring Tester (sold at a few places - like my shop) or you can make your own ring tester using a scope and an audio signal generator - simply pump into the flyback a couple of volts at the flyback frequency and see what comes out of the lower voltage windings...should look fairly clean if the flyback is OK. I have some older B&W flybacks for Motorola B&W monitors as used in video games in the 1970s as well. These tend to be open frame flybacks. John :-#)# -- John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9 Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, VideoGames) www.flippers.com "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out" From jlobocki at gmail.com Sun Aug 29 22:35:47 2010 From: jlobocki at gmail.com (joe lobocki) Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2010 22:35:47 -0500 Subject: using localtalk bridge In-Reply-To: <AANLkTi=J713j6zpUWC4bSqZt_6E5FeD8ZYvybzbyx7m-@mail.gmail.com> References: <AANLkTimw7G7Mr1WPA0w9h=tebpOjbUnObiySi_B=78_D@mail.gmail.com> <AANLkTi=J713j6zpUWC4bSqZt_6E5FeD8ZYvybzbyx7m-@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <AANLkTimiPQnYXaBo=7EjuSb65Uzg3mPToBKFwXtpNyyG@mail.gmail.com> sounds good, what about internet sharing, is there a way to get internet to the SE from the rest of the network? On Sat, Aug 28, 2010 at 8:07 AM, Mike Shields <shieldsm at gmail.com> wrote: > On Fri, Aug 27, 2010 at 2:40 PM, joe lobocki <jlobocki at gmail.com> wrote: > > has anybody tried localtalk bridge ( > > http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=60290 ) in their mac > setups? > > I was thinking of taking one of my old LC slabs and throwing a $10-$20 > > ethernet card in, throwing a phonenet dongle on the modem port, either > > loading the hard drive with a low os with all but the needed extensions > and > > files removed, or the same on a floppy, and just using it like a router, > > with its only purpose being passing data between the apple ethernet > segments > > and the apple phonenet segments(which at this time is only my SE as every > > other mac has ethernet). > > > > I use it, running on a PowerMac 9600. The only thing I have on > phonenet is a Mac SE, but with the bridge on the 9600, it's able to > use file shares on the 9600 and file and printer shares on my > (netatalk) Linux fileserver. > > I had some quirky issues getting it set up, but generally, once you > get the settings right and reboot with it installed, it's pretty much > invisible and works as advertised. They do talk about support on 7.1 > and later, and then warn about it being "[not] completely compatible" > with 8.5. I've personally run it on 8.1, 9.0, and 9.1. > From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Aug 30 17:13:55 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2010 18:13:55 -0400 Subject: Getting started with programmable logic, was Re: Cray 1 replica In-Reply-To: <4C7C25F1.7070900@neurotica.com> References: <3F9A2823-1F92-438F-8AC5-0552E0D08447@shiresoft.com> <p0624080bc8a18afa0bf7@192.168.1.157> <001a01cb4866$24e061a0$6ea124e0$@ntlworld.com> <4C7BE99E.2070005@neurotica.com> <AANLkTikjqHMQyipBi9YWzcVgsR=0e-z02iJSf-uw1wEC@mail.gmail.com> <4C7C25F1.7070900@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <AANLkTikgyX8T4-H0OP-5P2KjkPe+M25OTCEcgQO2Z4kg@mail.gmail.com> Hi, Dave, On 8/30/10, Dave McGuire <mcguire at neurotica.com> wrote: > On 8/30/10 3:12 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> Can you be a little more specific? What counts as "the very largest"? > > I don't know where the cutoff point is, but it's big. If you want to > design with a monstrosity of an FPGA that has over a thousand pins... Gotcha. Bigger than I'm going to worry about for a long time. >> I am, in fact, a bit muddled about which Diligent board would be a >> good buy... > > I have an S3BOARD with the XC3S1000 (1,000,000-gate) chip upgrade. > The board is very "friendly" and has flexible I/O that's easy to deal > with, and they have a line of "expansion" boards that plug onto its > connectors, that give you things like solder-type and solderless > breadboard areas, some analog I/O, etc etc. I think it's the best bang > for the buck. It has plenty of onboard goodies (RAM, PS/2 kbd, VGA, > etc), without being "too much" to get in the way of actually using the > FPGA's pins for your own stuff. > > This is it: > > http://digilentinc.com/Products/Detail.cfm?Prod=S3BOARD I did see that one, but I didn't happen to catch the upgrade. Thanks for mentioning that. > It comes with extensive documentation including schematics, and lots > of other stuff like "here's how you generate a VGA signal" and "here's > how you interface to a PS/2 keyboard, and here are all the PS/2 key > press/release codes". > > The current price is $109, plus $50 for the million-gate chip upgrade. A million gates sure sounds like plenty to me (if not forever, at least for a long time). I was also looking at this model (Spartan 3E 1600 - the one http://digilentinc.com/Products/Detail.cfm?NavPath=2,400,793&Prod=S3E1600 The memory amount is different, the gate count is different, and it's a Spartan 3E vs your Spartan 3 (not that I understand the fundamental differences yet). It sounds like either board would work for me, and the prices are close enough not to affect my choice. > I have the board manual handy in PDF format; let me know if you'd > like a copy to study. That might be interesting to review, though I doubt I'll buy anything before next year - too many in-progress projects on deck already. > ... I was annoyed to discover that my very expensive USB JTAG module was > been desupported while I was away. I found out how expensive USB JTAG dongles were when I was working with a friend on completing an old project of his that was originally some enhanced flavor of MCS-51 (a mutual friend had previously suggested a development board with all the bells and whistles so that no matter what direction the project might take, the board could handle it). When finalizing things and moving to a simple Atmel 80C52 (which was more than plenty sophisticated for the task at hand), we abandoned the idea of a JTAG programmer and went with Atmel ICS because a USB ICS dongle was $20. > Fortunately, new ones are nowhere > near as expensive as they used to be. That's good to hear. ISTR we were looking at $150-$200 for a true JTAG dongle. >> Could someone who owns a Diligent board provide any information >> about variations from model to model and what features are "must >> haves"? > > As far as "must haves", well, that depends on what you want to do. ;) > Personally I like PS/2 keyboard interfaces and VGA connectors with > attached DAC networks. Attached SRAM is handy. I think for the things I'd like to do (FPGA Arcade, the Cray-1 implementation, possibly a PDP-10 implementation, etc), I'd either find PS/2 and VGA to be useful or at least not in the way. The attached SRAM is probably a must-have (VGA framebuffer memory, etc). Things like LCDs and LEDs and input buttons might be interesting, but most of the FPGA development boards seem to have some form of attached numeric or textual output (handy for debugging/status). Thanks for the info! -ethan From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Aug 30 17:17:37 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2010 15:17:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: using localtalk bridge In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimiPQnYXaBo=7EjuSb65Uzg3mPToBKFwXtpNyyG@mail.gmail.com> from joe lobocki at "Aug 29, 10 10:35:47 pm" Message-ID: <201008302217.o7UMHbib020906@floodgap.com> > sounds good, what about internet sharing, is there a way to get internet to > the SE from the rest of the network? MacIP will work, but not with LocalTalk Bridge. You'll need a hardware AppleTalk router like a GatorBox. These are getting harder to find, unfortunately. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- And now for something completely different. -- Monty Python ---------------- From legalize at xmission.com Mon Aug 30 17:56:54 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2010 16:56:54 -0600 Subject: Getting started with programmable logic, was Re: Cray 1 replica In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 30 Aug 2010 18:13:55 -0400. <AANLkTikgyX8T4-H0OP-5P2KjkPe+M25OTCEcgQO2Z4kg@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <E1OqDHa-0005LG-RY@shell.xmission.com> In article <AANLkTikgyX8T4-H0OP-5P2KjkPe+M25OTCEcgQO2Z4kg at mail.gmail.com>, Ethan Dicks <ethan.dicks at gmail.com> writes: > The memory amount is different, the gate count is different, and it's > a Spartan 3E vs your Spartan 3 (not that I understand the fundamental > differences yet). I believe the 3E is for embedded designs, i.e. automotive applications, etc. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com/the-direct3d-graphics-pipeline/> Legalize Adulthood! <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com> From dkelvey at hotmail.com Mon Aug 30 19:11:11 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2010 17:11:11 -0700 Subject: Programming a 16R4 In-Reply-To: <4C7A246A.1030703@jwsss.com> References: <AANLkTi=X7mT=oSA6Gbg18Ns6OysYKopHCo26tFa5cNVm@mail.gmail.com>, <4C7A246A.1030703@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <SNT129-W5829CCCE8FFF76D0017569A38A0@phx.gbl> Hi I have a Data I/O System 19 with a Unipack. Can I program a TI 16R4 on this without and adapter? An if I need an adapter, can aynoe tell me what it would look like( schematic )? Dwight From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Mon Aug 30 19:17:32 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2010 01:17:32 +0100 Subject: Getting started with programmable logic, was Re: Cray 1 replica In-Reply-To: <4C7BE99E.2070005@neurotica.com> References: <3F9A2823-1F92-438F-8AC5-0552E0D08447@shiresoft.com> <p0624080bc8a18afa0bf7@[192.168.1.157]> <001a01cb4866$24e061a0$6ea124e0$@ntlworld.com> <4C7BE99E.2070005@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4C7C4A1C.2030001@philpem.me.uk> On 30/08/10 18:25, Dave McGuire wrote: > I recommend picking up one of the Xilinx-based Digilent boards. They're > inexpensive and very nice. Xilinx has a freely-downloadable toolchain > (WebPACK) that works very well. It even has "real" Linux support > nowadays. The free stuff supports all but the very largest of their FPGAs. If you're taking the Xilinx route and want a cheap entry, the Enterpoint Drigmorn2 is also worth a look: http://www.enterpoint.co.uk/drigmorn/drigmorn2.html It's based around a Spartan3A-700 FPGA, and has: 256MBit x32 SDRAM, 128Mbit SPI Flash, a text-based 16x2 LCD display (HD44780 controller), a bunch of 'traffic light' LEDs (four full R/Y/G sets and a standalone red) one 16-position hexadecimal switch and two pushbuttons FTDI USB Serial Port controller chip (FT232) 25MHz onboard oscillator Two 20-pin 5V-tolerant GPIO ports (40 pins total) with LVDS support Price is about ?110 for board and parallel programming cable, ?170 for board and USB programming cable, or (if memory serves) about ?100 for board only. If you want to go down the Altera route, the Altera Cyclone II Starter Board is available from DigiKey and Farnell (last I checked, DigiKey were significantly cheaper). That's based on a Cyclone II 2C20 FPGA, and the following peripherals: 8Mbit PowerChip SDRAM (though I understand this has been swapped with a different part in more recent builds), 512Kbit x16 SDRAM, 4Mbit parallel FLASH, SMA external clock input (plus 24, 27 and 50MHz TTL oscillators), Wolfson Microelectronics WM8731 24-bit audio codec, Ten switches (latching on/off), Four pushbuttons, 14 LEDs (10 red, 4 green), Four-digit segment-addressable 7seg display, VGA, RS232, PS/2 (keyboard-mode only, the Minimig DE1 Port project has documented a simple modification which adds mouse-mode), Two 40-pin IDC connectors with (if memory serves) 32 GPIOs each Built-in Altera USB Blaster cable clone Cost is about ?120 total for the Cyclone II Starter Board. It's also sold as the TerASIC DE1, so look out for those too (same board, but without the silver Altera sticker). The Minimig Amiga clone has been ported to the DE1 (minimig-tg68), and that's quite cool to play with for a while on a rainy day. Disadvantages are you can't really do LVDS on the DE1 (so you can't hook up a laptop LCD panel without an external LVDS transceiver chip); the Drigmorn2 has a couple of switchable LVDS/GPIO pairs on the main connector. This is a bit specialist though; I like the pluggable modules on the Drigmorn2, but I like that the Altera board has >90% of what I need on it already (no need to make up expander boards most of the time). The Drigmorn2 does have Ethernet, PS/2 and USB boards available, which are kinda cool to play with. If you're just starting, go with a Digilent kit board or the Altera DE1. I find the Altera Quartus software easier to use (and a lot less finicky) than the Xilinx Webpack, but that's just me. Altera also tend to be much more receptive to bug reports -- Xilinx are well known for making it almost impossible to file a bug report or contact an FAE... Xilinx parts also tend to be harder to find than Altera parts, so bear that in mind if you're doing a production design. I found it much easier to get hold of Altera Cyclone2 parts than Xilinx Spartans... Farnell stock small quantities of CYC2s, and if I need more there's always DigiKey. Put simply: you're likely to have less headaches starting with Altera. If you want to play with 'soft-core' CPUs, get one of the Cyclone III Starter Kit boards, they have more flash and RAM, but it's a DDR SDRAM which makes designing a memory controller harder (but there are a few OSS/FS ones on OpenCores). If you just want a simple entry-level board, look at the Cyclone II Starter Kit. -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Mon Aug 30 19:37:28 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2010 01:37:28 +0100 Subject: Getting started with programmable logic, was Re: Cray 1 replica In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikjqHMQyipBi9YWzcVgsR=0e-z02iJSf-uw1wEC@mail.gmail.com> References: <3F9A2823-1F92-438F-8AC5-0552E0D08447@shiresoft.com> <p0624080bc8a18afa0bf7@192.168.1.157> <001a01cb4866$24e061a0$6ea124e0$@ntlworld.com> <4C7BE99E.2070005@neurotica.com> <AANLkTikjqHMQyipBi9YWzcVgsR=0e-z02iJSf-uw1wEC@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4C7C4EC8.9080703@philpem.me.uk> On 30/08/10 20:12, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> Xilinx has a freely-downloadable >> toolchain (WebPACK) that works very well. It even has "real" Linux >> support nowadays. > > Excellent. For me, Linux development support is 100% essential. I'm > not likely to bother to get started if I have to set up a new > environment just to play with toys (I'm already set for Arduino and > Makerbot hacking from my CentOS laptop). You might find these interesting: Making Altera Quartus work natively on Ubuntu Linux: http://www.philpem.me.uk/elec/fpga/quartus-ubuntu (there are some USB permission issues with this; I need to sort out a Udev rule for the USB Blaster) The same for Xilinx ISE12.1: http://www.philpem.me.uk/elec/fpga/iseubuntu/ (no issues here, this "just plain works") Both of these assume you're using Ubuntu 10.04; 9.10 and 9.04 should be near identical, same goes for any recent version of Debian (would that be Sid? I don't follow Debian release tags very closely). Comments and criticism on these tutorials are always welcome :) -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Mon Aug 30 21:03:23 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2010 23:03:23 -0300 Subject: Getting started with programmable logic, was Re: Cray 1 replica References: <3F9A2823-1F92-438F-8AC5-0552E0D08447@shiresoft.com> <p0624080bc8a18afa0bf7@[192.168.1.157]><001a01cb4866$24e061a0$6ea124e0$@ntlworld.com> <4C7BE99E.2070005@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <1c9201cb48b3$f9429fb0$0600000a@portajara> > I recommend picking up one of the Xilinx-based Digilent boards. They're > inexpensive and very nice. Xilinx has a freely-downloadable toolchain > (WebPACK) that works very well. It even has "real" Linux support > nowadays. The free stuff supports all but the very largest of their > FPGAs. Dave, I have everything set up, but still no "start here"...VHDL seems easy, but I just don't know where to start! :oO Greetings from Brazil! Alexandre Souza, PU1BZZ From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Aug 30 21:33:55 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2010 20:33:55 -0600 Subject: Xilinx development software on Linux (was Re: Getting started with programmable logic) In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikjqHMQyipBi9YWzcVgsR=0e-z02iJSf-uw1wEC@mail.gmail.com> References: <3F9A2823-1F92-438F-8AC5-0552E0D08447@shiresoft.com> <p0624080bc8a18afa0bf7@192.168.1.157> <001a01cb4866$24e061a0$6ea124e0$@ntlworld.com> <4C7BE99E.2070005@neurotica.com> <AANLkTikjqHMQyipBi9YWzcVgsR=0e-z02iJSf-uw1wEC@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4C7C6A13.7090608@brouhaha.com> Ethan Dicks wrote: > I was already looking at the Diligent > boards because of the project that does arcade machine emulation on > them (the example I saw was with one of the line of Diligent Spartan > 3E boards, running Asteroids or Pac-Man, etc). I used the same board (Digilent Spartan 3 1600E) for several projects, including the COSMAC Elf I recently did for RetroChallenge 2010. It's a great board. > For me, Linux development support is 100% essential. Me too. Xilinx supports both 32-bit and 64-bit Linux with their no-charge WebPack software. (Older releases only supported 32-bit, though you could kludge the install script to make it install the 32-bit version on a 64-bit host.) They officially only support RHEL, but it also works on Centos, Fedora, Debian, Ubuntu, etc. With some releases I've had to do a bit of fiddling to get them working on Fedora, but Xilinx 12.1i worked perfectly on Fedora 12 with no special effort required. >> The free stuff supports all but the very largest of >> their FPGAs. > Can you be a little more specific? What counts as "the very largest"? The free stuff supports all Spartan-3E, -3A, and -3AN FPGAs, Spartan-3 parts up to the 3S1500, and Spartan-3A DSP parts up to the 1800. There are size limits on all the others (notably the Virtex families). If you need the details, there's a comparison chart showing the difference between the no-charge WebPack and the various paid editions of the software: http://www.xilinx.com/publications/matrix/Software_matrix.pdf Eric From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Aug 30 21:40:13 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2010 22:40:13 -0400 Subject: Getting started with programmable logic, was Re: Cray 1 replica In-Reply-To: <1c9201cb48b3$f9429fb0$0600000a@portajara> References: <3F9A2823-1F92-438F-8AC5-0552E0D08447@shiresoft.com> <p0624080bc8a18afa0bf7@[192.168.1.157]><001a01cb4866$24e061a0$6ea124e0$@ntlworld.com> <4C7BE99E.2070005@neurotica.com> <1c9201cb48b3$f9429fb0$0600000a@portajara> Message-ID: <4C7C6B8D.4040008@neurotica.com> On 8/30/10 10:03 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >> I recommend picking up one of the Xilinx-based Digilent boards. >> They're inexpensive and very nice. Xilinx has a freely-downloadable >> toolchain (WebPACK) that works very well. It even has "real" Linux >> support nowadays. The free stuff supports all but the very largest of >> their FPGAs. > > Dave, I have everything set up, but still no "start here"...VHDL seems > easy, but I just don't know where to start! :oO I got started by following some examples, simple stuff like a binary counter followed by a 7-segment decoder driving an LED. I did a little with VHDL, then quickly developed a preference for Verilog (less of the "designed by committee" feel) but all of the commercial stuff I've done with this, using CPLDs, was very small and I did it with schematics. I just found that my brain works better that way. I'll see if I can find the examples I started with. They won't apply to the current WebPACK user interface because this was around 2001 or so, but they may be helpful anyway. -Dave PS - I have a box of stuff ready to go out to you, you'll hear from me about that soon! -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From keithvz at verizon.net Mon Aug 30 22:11:54 2010 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith) Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2010 23:11:54 -0400 Subject: Xilinx development software on Linux (was Re: Getting started with programmable logic) In-Reply-To: <4C7C6A13.7090608@brouhaha.com> References: <3F9A2823-1F92-438F-8AC5-0552E0D08447@shiresoft.com> <p0624080bc8a18afa0bf7@192.168.1.157> <001a01cb4866$24e061a0$6ea124e0$@ntlworld.com> <4C7BE99E.2070005@neurotica.com> <AANLkTikjqHMQyipBi9YWzcVgsR=0e-z02iJSf-uw1wEC@mail.gmail.com> <4C7C6A13.7090608@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4C7C72FA.4070704@verizon.net> On 8/30/2010 10:33 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > Ethan Dicks wrote: > > I was already looking at the Diligent > > boards because of the project that does arcade machine emulation on > > them (the example I saw was with one of the line of Diligent Spartan > > 3E boards, running Asteroids or Pac-Man, etc). > > I used the same board (Digilent Spartan 3 1600E) for several projects, > including the COSMAC Elf I recently did for RetroChallenge 2010. It's a > great board. I've used Digilent Spartan3E-500 starter board. Great board, lots of connectors, onboard support chips, etc. Note: there are "XA"(DS635) versions of the 3E-500 which are (marketed as targeting) for embedded and automotive applications. Definitely not the same as the DS312 version found on this board! http://www.digilentinc.com/Products/Detail.cfm?Prod=S3EBOARD The only complaint is because there are so many peripherals, it leaves a paltry 40 spare user I/O lines (out of a couple hundred) for other devices. While this has been sufficient for all my projects, I could definitely see this being a limitation. There are other boards which are very pin frugal, like the Sparkfun board, which give you tons of user I/O and mainly the basics covered w/ pre-attached hardware. http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/product_info.php?products_id=8458 I like the flexibility of having all these devices bought/soldered/pre-connected/ready to go with the digilent board. Despite having developed a few working projects, I haven't really wrapped my head around matching up project size(aka lines of verilog code, hardware instantiated) with resource consumption. My relatively bare-bones floppy controller consumes something like 6% of the total available slices. I've loaded Xilinx's 32-bit microprocessor core, and loaded some small programs. The entire amiga-on-an-fpga minimig would consume ~65% of this same chip. 500K gates seem more than sufficient for most of my hobby designs. I'm of the more-is-better crowd, though, and so I would always buy the biggest I can afford. Note this is partially because I don't fully understand things --- based from my layman's perspective. There are some other metrics besides just gate count. Things like number of Digital Clock Managers(DCMs), block rams, and so forth. One thing: look for boards with SRAM instead of DDR. While you get more DDR for your money, the SRAM is about 2938402384 times easier to deal with than the DDR. Trust me on this. :) I've worked both with Ubuntu 9/10 and Windows XP/Vista/7 which both work fine with ISE and programming tools. At some point I'd like to try some Altera chips just to compare things, but I have no major complaints about Xilinx. Hope this helps. Keith From keithvz at verizon.net Mon Aug 30 22:15:21 2010 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith) Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2010 23:15:21 -0400 Subject: Getting started with programmable logic, was Re: Cray 1 replica In-Reply-To: <4C7C6B8D.4040008@neurotica.com> References: <3F9A2823-1F92-438F-8AC5-0552E0D08447@shiresoft.com> <p0624080bc8a18afa0bf7@[192.168.1.157]><001a01cb4866$24e061a0$6ea124e0$@ntlworld.com> <4C7BE99E.2070005@neurotica.com> <1c9201cb48b3$f9429fb0$0600000a@portajara> <4C7C6B8D.4040008@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4C7C73C9.6030803@verizon.net> > On 8/30/10 10:03 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >>> I recommend picking up one of the Xilinx-based Digilent boards. >>> They're inexpensive and very nice. Xilinx has a freely-downloadable >>> toolchain (WebPACK) that works very well. It even has "real" Linux >>> support nowadays. The free stuff supports all but the very largest of >>> their FPGAs. >> >> Dave, I have everything set up, but still no "start here"...VHDL seems >> easy, but I just don't know where to start! :oO > fpga4fun.com has really helped me. Keith From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Aug 30 22:51:17 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2010 23:51:17 -0400 Subject: Getting started with programmable logic, was Re: Cray 1 replica In-Reply-To: <4C7C73C9.6030803@verizon.net> References: <3F9A2823-1F92-438F-8AC5-0552E0D08447@shiresoft.com> <p0624080bc8a18afa0bf7@[192.168.1.157]><001a01cb4866$24e061a0$6ea124e0$@ntlworld.com> <4C7BE99E.2070005@neurotica.com> <1c9201cb48b3$f9429fb0$0600000a@portajara> <4C7C6B8D.4040008@neurotica.com> <4C7C73C9.6030803@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4C7C7C35.7020501@neurotica.com> On 8/30/10 11:15 PM, Keith wrote: >>>> I recommend picking up one of the Xilinx-based Digilent boards. >>>> They're inexpensive and very nice. Xilinx has a freely-downloadable >>>> toolchain (WebPACK) that works very well. It even has "real" Linux >>>> support nowadays. The free stuff supports all but the very largest of >>>> their FPGAs. >>> >>> Dave, I have everything set up, but still no "start here"...VHDL seems >>> easy, but I just don't know where to start! :oO >> > > fpga4fun.com has really helped me. There's some great stuff there. I wish it was around (or that I had found it if it was) when I started. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Aug 30 22:58:54 2010 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2010 21:58:54 -0600 Subject: Getting started with programmable logic, was Re: Cray 1 replica In-Reply-To: <1c9201cb48b3$f9429fb0$0600000a@portajara> References: <3F9A2823-1F92-438F-8AC5-0552E0D08447@shiresoft.com> <p0624080bc8a18afa0bf7@[192.168.1.157]><001a01cb4866$24e061a0$6ea124e0$@ntlworld.com> <4C7BE99E.2070005@neurotica.com> <1c9201cb48b3$f9429fb0$0600000a@portajara> Message-ID: <4C7C7DFE.1030706@jetnet.ab.ca> For me, the FPGA brand would not be a problem,"Can I solder it to the PCB board for the Computer Replica I want?", is my problem Also remember to buy your switches when you can find them, blinky lights are cheap if you have the I/O lines. FPGA's take a bit of time to configure from ROM so a clean booting system may take a bit of thought. That is all I have to say, I am using CPLD's since I plan to build a classic 18 bit computer: AC, MAR, PC & MBR. So far 2 - 128 macro cell CPLD's will work for the Control & Alu sections. 1 - 64 macro cell cpld will handle I/O. The CPU has ADD,SUB,BIT(~ac&(mem)),DCA as the main data reference. Indirect ADD,SUB,BIT,DCA as well as BTB (bit byte indirect) DCB ( DCA byte indirect). Operate NOP,HLT,DI,EI,CLA,SZL,RCR,RCL. Control logic JZ,JLT,JGE,JSV(pc=(mem);ac=pc). Interupt after CLA,DCA. (ac=pc+2,jmp 0). 16KW direct address space,128 KB address space direct. 2.0 us memory cycle time. OP 2 us, mem/jmp 4 us,mem indirect 6 us. Ben. From nigel.d.williams at gmail.com Tue Aug 31 00:33:09 2010 From: nigel.d.williams at gmail.com (Nigel Williams) Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2010 15:33:09 +1000 Subject: using localtalk bridge In-Reply-To: <201008302217.o7UMHbib020906@floodgap.com> References: <AANLkTimiPQnYXaBo=7EjuSb65Uzg3mPToBKFwXtpNyyG@mail.gmail.com> <201008302217.o7UMHbib020906@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <AANLkTim31=duf2eY0L0W8h+BnwxSDoQTVG+kyZNdo_Kd@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Aug 31, 2010 at 8:17 AM, Cameron Kaiser <spectre at floodgap.com> wrote: >> sounds good, what about internet sharing, is there a way to get internet to >> the SE from the rest of the network? > > MacIP will work, but not with LocalTalk Bridge. You'll need a hardware > AppleTalk router like a GatorBox. These are getting harder to find, > unfortunately. ISTR the software product Apple Internet Router (AIR) was able to join Localtalk / Ethernet for routing TCP/IP? http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=11262&coll=ap From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Aug 31 00:42:01 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2010 22:42:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: using localtalk bridge In-Reply-To: <AANLkTim31=duf2eY0L0W8h+BnwxSDoQTVG+kyZNdo_Kd@mail.gmail.com> from Nigel Williams at "Aug 31, 10 03:33:09 pm" Message-ID: <201008310542.o7V5g1S1016924@floodgap.com> > > MacIP will work, but not with LocalTalk Bridge. You'll need a hardware > > AppleTalk router like a GatorBox. These are getting harder to find, > > unfortunately. > > ISTR the software product Apple Internet Router (AIR) was able to join > Localtalk / Ethernet for routing TCP/IP? > > http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=11262&coll=ap I thought that Apple IR was for interconnecting AppleTalk networks *over* TCP/IP (i.e., as a router for routing AppleTalk through the Internet as opposed to the Internet through AppleTalk), not for MacIP specifically, but I could be wrong about this. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Even if you win the rat race, you're still a rat. -------------------------- From nigel.d.williams at gmail.com Tue Aug 31 01:00:51 2010 From: nigel.d.williams at gmail.com (Nigel Williams) Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2010 16:00:51 +1000 Subject: using localtalk bridge In-Reply-To: <201008310542.o7V5g1S1016924@floodgap.com> References: <AANLkTim31=duf2eY0L0W8h+BnwxSDoQTVG+kyZNdo_Kd@mail.gmail.com> <201008310542.o7V5g1S1016924@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <AANLkTikuP=FUyF6Huvyd5K4o38WGERW_O7OEiiOnVfA8@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Aug 31, 2010 at 3:42 PM, Cameron Kaiser <spectre at floodgap.com> wrote: > I thought that Apple IR was for interconnecting AppleTalk networks *over* > TCP/IP (i.e., as a router for routing AppleTalk through the Internet as > opposed to the Internet through AppleTalk), not for MacIP specifically, > but I could be wrong about this. Trying to remember back 20 years so I could be wrong too...I thought we had something like this working: NCSA Telnet (MacTCP) over Localtalk via AIR to an Ethernet running into a RS/6000 (5250 emulator) more Ethernet to an AS/400. And somewhere in there Mosaic to the Internet (such as it was back then). Predating AIR was hardware options like Webster Multigate which did the same thing as AIR but supported more Localtalk segments. From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Tue Aug 31 05:31:39 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2010 07:31:39 -0300 Subject: Getting started with programmable logic, was Re: Cray 1 replica References: <3F9A2823-1F92-438F-8AC5-0552E0D08447@shiresoft.com> <p0624080bc8a18afa0bf7@[192.168.1.157]><001a01cb4866$24e061a0$6ea124e0$@ntlworld.com> <4C7BE99E.2070005@neurotica.com><1c9201cb48b3$f9429fb0$0600000a@portajara> <4C7C6B8D.4040008@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <1f4701cb48f8$cf6b8310$0600000a@portajara> > I got started by following some examples, simple stuff like a binary > counter followed by a 7-segment decoder driving an LED. I did a little > with VHDL, then quickly developed a preference for Verilog (less of the > "designed by committee" feel) but all of the commercial stuff I've done > with this, using CPLDs, was very small and I did it with schematics. I > just found that my brain works better that way. I'll try again this week, I'm VERY interested in CPLD things for speeding-up development and reconfiguration > PS - I have a box of stuff ready to go out to you, you'll hear from me > about that soon! Ebaaaa!!! :oD I'm crazy to put my hands on the contents of this box :D :D :D Thanks Alexandre From afra at aurigae.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 31 07:09:51 2010 From: afra at aurigae.demon.co.uk (afra at aurigae.demon.co.uk) Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2010 13:09:51 +0100 Subject: Getting started with programmable logic, was Re: Cray 1 replica In-Reply-To: <1f4701cb48f8$cf6b8310$0600000a@portajara> References: <3F9A2823-1F92-438F-8AC5-0552E0D08447@shiresoft.com> <p0624080bc8a18afa0bf7@[192.168.1.157]><001a01cb4866$24e061a0$6ea124e0$@ntlworld.com> <4C7BE99E.2070005@neurotica.com><1c9201cb48b3$f9429fb0$0600000a@portajara> <4C7C6B8D.4040008@neurotica.com> <1f4701cb48f8$cf6b8310$0600000a@portajara> Message-ID: <20100831130951.11454mszt4m0pc00@aurigae.demon.co.uk> Quoting Alexandre Souza - Listas <pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com>: > > I'll try again this week, I'm VERY interested in CPLD things for > speeding-up development and reconfiguration Yeah CPLDs are really good for that sort of thing, and can also often make board routing a little easier as pins can be assigned by the designer rather than having them hard "coded" by the chip manufacturer. Cheers. Phill. ---------------------------------------------------------------- This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. From david_comley at yahoo.com Tue Aug 31 07:19:07 2010 From: david_comley at yahoo.com (David Comley) Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2010 05:19:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Xilinx development software on Linux (was Re: Getting started with programmable logic) In-Reply-To: <4C7C72FA.4070704@verizon.net> Message-ID: <175689.19878.qm@web30602.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- On Mon, 8/30/10, Keith <keithvz at verizon.net> wrote: > > I've worked both with Ubuntu 9/10 and Windows XP/Vista/7 > which both work fine with ISE and programming tools. Keith, have you had any issues when transferring projects between the two environments ? I'm about to start working on a project that was originally developed using the Windows version of ISE, but will be maintained using the Linux version of ISE under SuSE 11. -Dave From Martin.Stransky at emerson.com Tue Aug 31 06:48:16 2010 From: Martin.Stransky at emerson.com (Martin.Stransky at emerson.com) Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2010 13:48:16 +0200 Subject: Toshiba 3100/20 Message-ID: <4524A3E2D0982B4886AA71D88A1A06D40127D4DC@enpemea-nmexm01.emea.enpad.org> Hi, Are you still there in 2010? :-) I need to read data from my friend's old Toshiba PC with HDD 26 pin connector. I would need to know what are the signals, or what is the adapter. Could you provide some schematics? thanx martin stransky | UPS engineer | Nove Mesto nad Vahom Emerson Network Power | Piestanska 1202/44 | 91528 NOve mesto nad Vahom T +421 32 7700 423 www.EmersonNetworkPower.com <http://www.emersonnetworkpower.com/> From keithvz at verizon.net Tue Aug 31 09:22:23 2010 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith M) Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2010 10:22:23 -0400 Subject: Xilinx development software on Linux (was Re: Getting started with programmable logic) In-Reply-To: <175689.19878.qm@web30602.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <175689.19878.qm@web30602.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4C7D101F.4060107@verizon.net> On 8/31/2010 8:19 AM, David Comley wrote: > > > --- On Mon, 8/30/10, Keith<keithvz at verizon.net> wrote: > > >> >> I've worked both with Ubuntu 9/10 and Windows XP/Vista/7 >> which both work fine with ISE and programming tools. > > > Keith, have you had any issues when transferring projects between the two environments ? I'm about to start working on a project that was originally developed using the Windows version of ISE, but will be maintained using the Linux version of ISE under SuSE 11. > > -Dave While that's not my normal M.O., I did once go Windows -------> Linux without problems. The only related issue that I've run into involves naming projects, directories that store projects, etc. Some of the utilities that ISE calls (still?) do not handle spaces in the filename string. Some notable problems with Windows might be "My Documents" or "Program Files." This can also be a problem with Linux because they don't call the executables properly (ie with quotes for arguments, or whatever) I've also seen filename LENGTH problems. These problems show up multiple places, not the least of which, in the EDK for MicroBlaze, their 32-bit softcore processor. The error messages that result are not always file-not-found errors ---- you get cryptic errors that won't directly point you to the root cause. Oh, and one other thing: Make sure you "cleanup" the project in Windows ISE before you move things. There are a bunch of intermediate files that store directory related items that won't be there in the new file system. Even moving projects from directory to directory within Windows this problem can show up. It's not a big deal --- just keep an eye out for it. Once again, the error messages you get will not easily point right at this being an issue. The main thing is that if you instantiate a module, and that module is in the project, but can't be found when synthesizing, then you need to cleanup and rebuild. If you are familiar with the icons in the project navigator, the modules not having the correct icon next to them will usually indicate that this needs to be done. In general, if you synthesize and get weirdo errors related to "no such module", then cleanup and rebuild. It almost always fixes the problems. Keith From fjkraan at xs4all.nl Tue Aug 31 11:25:22 2010 From: fjkraan at xs4all.nl (F.J. Kraan) Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2010 18:25:22 +0200 Subject: Looking for TI SN75413 pin layout In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1283101200.39685.cctech@classiccmp.org> References: <mailman.1.1283101200.39685.cctech@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <4C7D2CF2.5060102@xs4all.nl> Does anyone have some info in the Texas Instruments SN75413 ? I am trying to restore the front panel controls of an early Tandy Radio Shack hard disk (8 MByte!), but cannot find this chip info. The reverse engineered diagram is at http://www.xs4all.nl/~fjkraan/comp/trs80m2/driverboard.png, but as I do not have the pin functions, I cannot connect the lamp and switch part (this bit is missing) to the board. There is some info on Radio Shack hard disks online, but not for this old model. For some more context of the board see http://www.xs4all.nl/~fjkraan/comp/trs80m2/8megDisk.html. Fred Jan From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Aug 31 11:39:28 2010 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2010 09:39:28 -0700 Subject: Getting started with programmable logic, was Re: Cray 1 replica In-Reply-To: <4C7C7C35.7020501@neurotica.com> References: <3F9A2823-1F92-438F-8AC5-0552E0D08447@shiresoft.com> <p0624080bc8a18afa0bf7@[192.168.1.157]><001a01cb4866$24e061a0$6ea124e0$@ntlworld.com> <4C7BE99E.2070005@neurotica.com> <1c9201cb48b3$f9429fb0$0600000a@portajara> <4C7C6B8D.4040008@neurotica.com> <4C7C73C9.6030803@verizon.net> <4C7C7C35.7020501@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4C7D3040.9030305@bitsavers.org> On 8/30/10 8:51 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: >> fpga4fun.com has really helped me. > > There's some great stuff there. I wish it was around (or that I had found it if it was) when I started. > I wish he was more forthcoming with details on the hardware design and his software. There were bits and pieces of a USB download chain for Linux, but I never got it all pulled together. From cclist at sydex.com Tue Aug 31 11:44:47 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2010 09:44:47 -0700 Subject: Looking for TI SN75413 pin layout In-Reply-To: <4C7D2CF2.5060102@xs4all.nl> References: <mailman.1.1283101200.39685.cctech@classiccmp.org>, <4C7D2CF2.5060102@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <4C7CCF0F.4104.5E3DBB@cclist.sydex.com> On 31 Aug 2010 at 18:25, F.J. Kraan wrote: > Does anyone have some info in the Texas Instruments SN75413 ? I am > trying to restore the front panel controls of an early Tandy Radio > Shack hard disk (8 MByte!), but cannot find this chip info. The > reverse engineered diagram is at > http://www.xs4all.nl/~fjkraan/comp/trs80m2/driverboard.png, but as I > do not have the pin functions, I cannot connect the lamp and switch > part (this bit is missing) to the board. > > There is some info on Radio Shack hard disks online, but not for this > old model. For some more context of the board see > http://www.xs4all.nl/~fjkraan/comp/trs80m2/8megDisk.html. Took me less than 30 seconds to find it on www.datasheetarchive.com. Basically the same as the 75403 dual peripheral driver, but with a maximum voltage rating of 55 volts. --Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Aug 31 11:48:25 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2010 12:48:25 -0400 Subject: Looking for TI SN75413 pin layout In-Reply-To: <4C7D2CF2.5060102@xs4all.nl> References: <mailman.1.1283101200.39685.cctech@classiccmp.org> <4C7D2CF2.5060102@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <4C7D3259.2010703@neurotica.com> On 8/31/10 12:25 PM, F.J. Kraan wrote: > Does anyone have some info in the Texas Instruments SN75413 ? I am > trying to restore the front panel controls of an early Tandy Radio Shack > hard disk (8 MByte!), but cannot find this chip info. The reverse > engineered diagram is at > http://www.xs4all.nl/~fjkraan/comp/trs80m2/driverboard.png, but as I do > not have the pin functions, I cannot connect the lamp and switch part > (this bit is missing) to the board. > > There is some info on Radio Shack hard disks online, but not for this > old model. For some more context of the board see > http://www.xs4all.nl/~fjkraan/comp/trs80m2/8megDisk.html. Sent as attachment in private mail. (lazy today) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 30 22:51:46 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2010 04:51:46 +0100 (BST) Subject: Making flyback transformers? In-Reply-To: <4C7B0B95.80801@telus.net> from "John Robertson" at Aug 29, 10 06:38:29 pm Message-ID: <m1OqHsz-000J3uC@p850ug1> > Oddly enough, vintage TVs using pictures tubes of the same size as the Strange... I've found the detailed characteristics of flybacks from different monitors to be very different. > monitors you are trying to repair often have flybacks that could be used > with a bit of tinkering. You need only a few voltages out, and if you And if you're not lucky, you need a supply of output transistors ;-) > know if the original monitor was tube or solid state then you know > somewhat what vintage TVs to hunt for (thrift stores/flea markets). You > also need to find one that has similar horizontal and vertical yoke > resistances to your monitor, as well as the B+. If you find these then > flybacks are somewhat interchangable with some mucking around to get the > pinout to match your monitor requirements. Due to the frequency these > are running at a CGA monitor yoke I would expect that the impedance Alas not all classic computers run at TV rates (GGA). For example I was using a composite video monitor yesterday with a 22kHz horizontal scan rate. I have no idea where I would get a replacement flyback for that. > should be similar to the impedance of a similar sized TV yoke with > similar resistance windings to your monitor. I remember (just) whem there were sort-of generic TV flybacks that could be used in may sets by connecting them correctly. And the ont thing that was emphasises was that it was the inducatance, not the resistance, that mattered (both of the flyback and of the yoke). In any case the DC resistance of most ohizotnal deflection coils used in transistorised monitors is a lot less than 1 ohm, and therefore diffiuclt to measure with any accuracy. > > Schematics of your monitor and the TV you are swiping the flyback from > would be a big help... Scheamtics are not normally the problem... > > Flybacks design is available (perhaps at a cost) from places like: > > http://www.innovatia.com/Design_Center/mag_desn.htm As I think is well-known on classiccmp, I prefer to do things myself rahter than to get somebofy else to do it. Not just for cost and enjoyment reasons, but also because if nobody carries on this sort of thing, the knowledge could be lost. > > Which I found that as an early choice using the following search term > "flyback transformer theory" in google. A bit further down there are a > few PDFs on desinging Flybacks. > > You can test flybacks using Bob Parker's Blue Ring Tester (sold at a few > places - like my shop) or you can make your own ring tester using a I have a homemade one based on a design published in 'Television' magazine in the UK (back when said publication actually had useful stuff in it). IIRC it's a 4011 chip running as an oscillator driving a power transistor that energises the primary winding of the flyback which has a capacitor connected across it to resonate it. You look at the riinging waveform with a 'scope (_any_ 'scope). A good flyback rings, one with shorted turns is massively damped. This is, alas, not a complete test. It will not pick up shorted HV rectifiers inside the flyback. And some colour monitor flybacks have a 'diode split overwind' (the EHT winding is in several sections with diodes conencted between them). It will not detect shorted diodes or inter-widing shorts there. But it does a good job most of the time. > scope and an audio signal generator - simply pump into the flyback a > couple of volts at the flyback frequency and see what comes out of the > lower voltage windings...should look fairly clean if the flyback is OK. > > I have some older B&W flybacks for Motorola B&W monitors as used in > video games in the 1970s as well. These tend to be open frame flybacks. THose can sometimes be repaired. Alas many of the machines I work on have totally encapsulated flybacks (sometimes, i nthe case of colour monitors, also including a thick-film unit with potentiometers to set the A1 (G2 to you) and focus voltages. That's the sort I am wondering about how to replce. In some cases, they never were available as an individual spare parts (only as the complete PCB), so finding a spare is going to be impossible. I would have to make one. -tony From pat at computer-refuge.org Tue Aug 31 16:18:50 2010 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2010 17:18:50 -0400 Subject: Looking for TI SN75413 pin layout In-Reply-To: <4C7D3259.2010703@neurotica.com> References: <mailman.1.1283101200.39685.cctech@classiccmp.org> <4C7D2CF2.5060102@xs4all.nl> <4C7D3259.2010703@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <201008311718.50607.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Tuesday 31 August 2010, Dave McGuire wrote: > Sent as attachment in private mail. (lazy today) Email isn't a file transfer service!!! Sorry, I couldn't resist. :) Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Aug 31 16:23:36 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2010 17:23:36 -0400 Subject: Looking for TI SN75413 pin layout In-Reply-To: <201008311718.50607.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <mailman.1.1283101200.39685.cctech@classiccmp.org> <4C7D2CF2.5060102@xs4all.nl> <4C7D3259.2010703@neurotica.com> <201008311718.50607.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <4C7D72D8.7030605@neurotica.com> On 8/31/10 5:18 PM, Patrick Finnegan wrote: >> Sent as attachment in private mail. (lazy today) > > Email isn't a file transfer service!!! It certainly isn't. I was feeling rather lazy, as I said. ;) > Sorry, I couldn't resist. :) I'll get you one of these days! ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Tue Aug 31 18:13:33 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2010 00:13:33 +0100 Subject: WTD -- ST506 style (MFM or RLL) hard drive and controller Message-ID: <4C7D8C9D.209@philpem.me.uk> Hi guys, I'm toying with the idea of doing an MFM/RLL hard drive bolt-on for the DiscFerret (seeing as the DF hardware is basically done now -- I'm just doing a final design check before I send the PCBs off for manufacturing). Problem is, I don't have a drive to play with. Does anyone have any or all of the following kicking around? - MFM or RLL hard drives. I could do with one or two of these; anything's good, as long as it has an ST506-style interface (that is, straight MFM/RLL with no funny business) and is believed to work. I'm ideally aiming for something "of reputable manufacture" -- so not a Kalok Octagon! - Cable kit for the above. So that's the Data and Control cables -- edge connector to IDC plug. - MFM/RLL controller to match the drive. Anything goes here -- e.g. Western Digital WD100x series, DTC, Omti... as long as I can make it work with the drive for long enough to format the drive and 'dd' some data onto it. I'll even consider SCSI-to-MFM bridges if they can be relatively easily tied to a modern PCI, PCIe or USB SCSI card (say, an AHA2940). I'm happy to pay reasonable market value for the above, but that doesn't extend to paying ?390 for drive-on-its-own (read: drive that's had the PCB removed and is basically useless) on "that online auction site"... Thanks, -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From lproven at gmail.com Tue Aug 31 18:24:15 2010 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2010 00:24:15 +0100 Subject: The Commodore 64 is back.. Maybe.. Not really.. Kinda In-Reply-To: <AANLkTi=Y==-0Ox1POEo9vXJ-yg43wKR1EHqO-Y_usN+P@mail.gmail.com> References: <4C77B5E7.3050709@gmail.com> <69572.64445.qm@web113504.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <AANLkTi=Y==-0Ox1POEo9vXJ-yg43wKR1EHqO-Y_usN+P@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <AANLkTik3T5ki+e26w_Dm+db2jNDZo-3VEPhT2npnv2FF@mail.gmail.com> On 27 August 2010 16:09, Brian Lanning <brianlanning at gmail.com> wrote: > On Fri, Aug 27, 2010 at 9:47 AM, Christian Liendo > <christian_liendo at yahoo.com> wrote: >> the 64 now means 64Bit Computer... Er ehm... yea.. > > Here's an inside pic: > > http://www.geek.com/articles/chips/commodore-computers-make-a-return-this-year-20100319/ > > I think these will be a flop. ?What OS will they run? ?Windows? > Linux? ?The new AmigaOS? > > What would really be neat is take some middle to high-end modern > hardware with high end graphics and sound hardware, and write a new > minimalist OS similar to the AmigaOS from scratch in machine language > with as little extra crap as possible. It's been done. It's called AROS, the Amiga Research OS. http://aros.sourceforge.net/ I've played with it. It's pretty good. Needs more volunteers & more input, but it's getting there. I believe that these days it not only runs, is source-code compatible with AmigaOS, runs Amiga apps in an emulator, but it also has functional TCP/IP and USB stacks and a usable web browser, so it's heading towards being a usable OS. What it *doesn't* have is multiuser security, memory protection, virtual memory support and other modern niceties that people are used to. Similar projects: - MorphOS, closed-source freeware, runs on PowerPC hardware only. http://www.morphos-team.net/ - AmigaOS 4, closed-source commercial, runs on PowerPC hardware only, but based on original Amiga sources. http://hyperion-entertainment.biz/ Less directly related: - AtheOS started out as AmigaOS-inspired but diverged. FOSS but a one-man project by Kurt Skauen. Immensely impressive for a single-handed effort. http://atheos.cx/ - Syllable, a fork of Atheos when its author moved on to other projects. FOSS. http://web.syllable.org/pages/index.html Both are x86-32 OSs with SMP and memory protection and VM, but they are no longer Amiga-like in any significant way. Not related but in the same ballpark: - Haiku, a FOSS rewrite of BeOS. x86-32, small, clean, elegant and fast, and far more modern than AmigaOS: has memory protection, virtual memory and is SMP-aware. Does not have multiuser security, though. http://www.haiku-os.org/ There are a lot of interesting little modern GUI OSs for commodity x86 hardware out there. There is even a FOSS clone of Windows called ReactOS, which is damned impressive but seems to me to be [a] kinda missing the point of FOSS and [b] just asking to be obliterated by MS as soon as it reaches the point where it is the remotest kind of threat. -- Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From lproven at gmail.com Tue Aug 31 18:31:14 2010 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2010 00:31:14 +0100 Subject: The Commodore 64 is back.. Maybe.. Not really.. Kinda In-Reply-To: <202870.74248.qm@web83916.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <69572.64445.qm@web113504.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <202870.74248.qm@web83916.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <AANLkTimShE3igfnyDvAq=AkzA--daPwtJEbx-0F3upJ8@mail.gmail.com> On 27 August 2010 18:35, geoffrey oltmans <oltmansg at bellsouth.net> wrote: > Judging from their pricing on their website, I'd say they're doomed to fail. > think of it this way: it's a laptop type packaging without a monitor, for about > the price of a laptop without any of the benefits. Agreed. I think it would be possible to do something interesting with x86 hardware inspired by 1980s hardware, but this isn't it. These are underpowered overpriced generic machines with no USPs at all apart from the name. And that's been tried multiple times before. The thing, for me, about some of the early-1980s home computers were that they were stripped to the bone to make them cheap. You could do that today. Make them entirely legacy-free, no optical or rotating media, no cooling fans, with an external heatsink. Silent and simple. A modest amount of RAM and a smallish SSD for storage, lightweight free OS, devoid of all nonessentials - no serial, parallel, keyboard, mouse, sound, Ethernet, etc. All these can be cheaply added by USB. Very simple to hook up when there's only one kind of socket. If you want to go really mad, give 'em a couple of Cardbus slots, or Cardbus + ExpressCard, so you could add Firewire, eSATA and so on to 'em. But don't cripple them with an Atom chip - those are for inexpensive battery-powered devices. Give them a cool-running desktop chip, ideally something dual-core with 64-bit. Cheapo integrated graphics, which actually can do passable 3D these days. Sell 'em for $100 or something. BYODKM, like the Mac Mini. (Bring your own display, keyboard & mouse.) Handy as a small silent server, as a home media box, as a learning tool in the developing world etc. -- Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From lproven at gmail.com Tue Aug 31 18:33:22 2010 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2010 00:33:22 +0100 Subject: The Commodore 64 is back.. Maybe.. Not really.. Kinda In-Reply-To: <4C781FEF.5080802@gmail.com> References: <4C77B5E7.3050709@gmail.com> <69572.64445.qm@web113504.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <AANLkTi=Y==-0Ox1POEo9vXJ-yg43wKR1EHqO-Y_usN+P@mail.gmail.com> <4C781FEF.5080802@gmail.com> Message-ID: <AANLkTin_MSr_x8sxQ0MHoV+qwGtwtYXbdoAE9FDUenPQ@mail.gmail.com> On 27 August 2010 21:28, Jules Richardson <jules.richardson99 at gmail.com> wrote: > Anyway, some form of collaborative minimalist OS project might be fun, at > least the design side; it's years since I've done any PC assembler and I'm > not sure I'd want to get back into it again. How about a minimalist OS > running in an emulator of a m68k-based computer? http://aranym.org/ perhaps? Complete just-compatible-enough-to-run-the-OS emulation of an Atari ST/TT type machine, with a complete FOSS multitasking Atari-compatible OS thrown in. -- Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From doc at vaxen.net Tue Aug 31 18:45:35 2010 From: doc at vaxen.net (Doc Shipley) Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2010 18:45:35 -0500 Subject: The Commodore 64 is back.. Maybe.. Not really.. Kinda In-Reply-To: <AANLkTik3T5ki+e26w_Dm+db2jNDZo-3VEPhT2npnv2FF@mail.gmail.com> References: <4C77B5E7.3050709@gmail.com> <69572.64445.qm@web113504.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <AANLkTi=Y==-0Ox1POEo9vXJ-yg43wKR1EHqO-Y_usN+P@mail.gmail.com> <AANLkTik3T5ki+e26w_Dm+db2jNDZo-3VEPhT2npnv2FF@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4C7D941F.2040205@vaxen.net> On 8/31/10 6:24 PM, Liam Proven wrote: > On 27 August 2010 16:09, Brian Lanning<brianlanning at gmail.com> wrote: >> On Fri, Aug 27, 2010 at 9:47 AM, Christian Liendo >> <christian_liendo at yahoo.com> wrote: >>> the 64 now means 64Bit Computer... Er ehm... yea.. >> >> Here's an inside pic: >> >> http://www.geek.com/articles/chips/commodore-computers-make-a-return-this-year-20100319/ >> >> I think these will be a flop. What OS will they run? Windows? >> Linux? The new AmigaOS? >> >> What would really be neat is take some middle to high-end modern >> hardware with high end graphics and sound hardware, and write a new >> minimalist OS similar to the AmigaOS from scratch in machine language >> with as little extra crap as possible. > > It's been done. It's called AROS, the Amiga Research OS. > > http://aros.sourceforge.net/ > > I've played with it. It's pretty good. Needs more volunteers& more > input, but it's getting there. I believe that these days it not only > runs, is source-code compatible with AmigaOS, runs Amiga apps in an > emulator, but it also has functional TCP/IP and USB stacks and a > usable web browser, so it's heading towards being a usable OS. > > What it *doesn't* have is multiuser security, memory protection, > virtual memory support and other modern niceties that people are used > to. > > Similar projects: > > - MorphOS, closed-source freeware, runs on PowerPC hardware only. > http://www.morphos-team.net/ MorphOS is *not* freeware. It's free to download, but if it's not registered (at a price of 111 EURO) it "slows down" after 30 minutes of operation. Doc Shipley From lproven at gmail.com Tue Aug 31 19:38:39 2010 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2010 01:38:39 +0100 Subject: The Commodore 64 is back.. Maybe.. Not really.. Kinda In-Reply-To: <4C7D941F.2040205@vaxen.net> References: <4C77B5E7.3050709@gmail.com> <69572.64445.qm@web113504.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <AANLkTi=Y==-0Ox1POEo9vXJ-yg43wKR1EHqO-Y_usN+P@mail.gmail.com> <AANLkTik3T5ki+e26w_Dm+db2jNDZo-3VEPhT2npnv2FF@mail.gmail.com> <4C7D941F.2040205@vaxen.net> Message-ID: <AANLkTinr5tWO2++O1adB3XtwMkEQx2bW5Pr8z4vvVRNF@mail.gmail.com> On 1 September 2010 00:45, Doc Shipley <doc at vaxen.net> wrote: > On 8/31/10 6:24 PM, Liam Proven wrote: >> - MorphOS, closed-source freeware, runs on PowerPC hardware only. >> http://www.morphos-team.net/ > > ?MorphOS is *not* freeware. ?It's free to download, but if it's not > registered (at a price of 111 EURO) it "slows down" after 30 minutes of > operation. Ah! Thanks for the clarification. I thought that as Genesi have moved on to other things now, notably ARM-based boxes AIUI, that this restriction had been dropped. I'm sorry to learn not. I was thinking of trying to put it on my G4 Mac mini, but if it's still crippleware, I probably won't bother... -- Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From dgahling at hotmail.com Tue Aug 31 22:40:21 2010 From: dgahling at hotmail.com (Dan Gahlinger) Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2010 23:40:21 -0400 Subject: The Commodore 64 is back.. Maybe.. Not really.. Kinda In-Reply-To: <AANLkTik3T5ki+e26w_Dm+db2jNDZo-3VEPhT2npnv2FF@mail.gmail.com> References: <4C77B5E7.3050709@gmail.com>, <69572.64445.qm@web113504.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>, <AANLkTi=Y==-0Ox1POEo9vXJ-yg43wKR1EHqO-Y_usN+P@mail.gmail.com>, <AANLkTik3T5ki+e26w_Dm+db2jNDZo-3VEPhT2npnv2FF@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <BLU139-W24B93BC75D775F56FDE77DC98B0@phx.gbl> I'm curious as to why no one has mentioned UAE http://www.amigaemulator.org/ its mature, stable, free, and open source... Dan. From curt at atarimuseum.com Tue Aug 31 23:15:39 2010 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2010 00:15:39 -0400 Subject: The Commodore 64 is back.. Maybe.. Not really.. Kinda In-Reply-To: <BLU139-W24B93BC75D775F56FDE77DC98B0@phx.gbl> References: <4C77B5E7.3050709@gmail.com>, <69572.64445.qm@web113504.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>, <AANLkTi=Y==-0Ox1POEo9vXJ-yg43wKR1EHqO-Y_usN+P@mail.gmail.com>, <AANLkTik3T5ki+e26w_Dm+db2jNDZo-3VEPhT2npnv2FF@mail.gmail.com> <BLU139-W24B93BC75D775F56FDE77DC98B0@phx.gbl> Message-ID: <4C7DD36B.30106@atarimuseum.com> What's everyones thought on this Modern PC in classic C64 clothing? Do you think this will be a gamer only purchase PC or just a small niche product that only those like us who are into retro/classic technology related products would buy? Curt Dan Gahlinger wrote: > I'm curious as to why no one has mentioned UAE > http://www.amigaemulator.org/ > > its mature, stable, free, and open source... > > Dan. > = > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 9.0.851 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3104 - Release Date: 08/31/10 02:34:00 > > From teoz at neo.rr.com Tue Aug 31 23:41:33 2010 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2010 00:41:33 -0400 Subject: The Commodore 64 is back.. Maybe.. Not really.. Kinda References: <69572.64445.qm@web113504.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <82C5A12CBB05416A8F9B1DA9C3E7C7D3@dell8300> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Christian Liendo" <christian_liendo at yahoo.com> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> Sent: Friday, August 27, 2010 10:47 AM Subject: The Commodore 64 is back.. Maybe.. Not really.. Kinda > the 64 now means 64Bit Computer... Er ehm... yea.. > > http://www.engadget.com/2010/08/26/commodore-usa-announces-the-pc64-an-atom-powered-pc-in-a-replic/ > > When you think of it, you can now emulate an Amiga on your Commodore 64.. > In fact you can emulate all the Commmodore computers in virtuals on your > Commodore 64.. > > Here is the Commodore USA website > http://www.commodoreusa.net > A bit lame trying to type on the original C64 layout and keyboard in Windows, they could have use the C64C design to lower carpel tunnel lawsuits. Instead of building a PC it would have been cool to have a functional C64 but with USB for joysticks, proper VGA/DVI out, a CDROM, HD, and built in networking for moving old data and installing programs but a port for the older 1541/1571 drives so you can backup your originals or play them. Device drivers for all of that stuff could have been burned to ROM so the thing instantly boots and works (plus a bit more then 64K of RAM would be nice). Something that would allow you to use all the old software but make life so much easier (and maybe a CPU accelerator to do new things). Of course this would mean some actual design work instead of just making a new case and using an off the shelf atom laptop motherboard. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 31 07:48:19 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2010 13:48:19 +0100 (BST) Subject: WTD -- ST506 style (MFM or RLL) hard drive and controller In-Reply-To: <4C7D8C9D.209@philpem.me.uk> from "Philip Pemberton" at Sep 1, 10 00:13:33 am Message-ID: <m1OqQGF-000J3uC@p850ug1> > > Hi guys, > > I'm toying with the idea of doing an MFM/RLL hard drive bolt-on for the=20 > DiscFerret (seeing as the DF hardware is basically done now -- I'm just=20 > doing a final design check before I send the PCBs off for manufacturing). > > Problem is, I don't have a drive to play with. > > Does anyone have any or all of the following kicking around? > > - MFM or RLL hard drives. I could do with one or two of these;=20 > anything's good, as long as it has an ST506-style interface (that is,=20 > straight MFM/RLL with no funny business) and is believed to work. I'm=20 > ideally aiming for something "of reputable manufacture" -- so not a=20 > Kalok Octagon! Alas not. Well, actually, I have a number od such drives, but I have even more classic computers that use them. So nothing 'spare' > > - Cable kit for the above. So that's the Data and Control cables --=20 > edge connector to IDC plug. Err, the connectors are still avaialble (easily...) So is IDC ribbon cable. And I assume you own a metalwork vice, since it's so useful for other things. Which means you could make the cables in less time that it's taken me to type this. > - MFM/RLL controller to match the drive. Anything goes here -- e.g.=20 > Western Digital WD100x series, DTC, Omti... as long as I can make it=20 What do you want as the host computer interface? I am pretty sure I can find the odd ISA bus one, but what would you use that with? -tony