From pat at computer-refuge.org Sun Aug 1 00:01:35 2010 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2010 01:01:35 -0400 Subject: Fwd: [comp.sys.dec] Two PDP-11/03s available In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201008010101.35901.pat@computer-refuge.org> > Free if picked up in Northwest Arkansas. These came out of > VAX-11/780 systems, so have the 11-03 in its little box and the > floppy drive in its awkward mounting and the terminator and boot ROM > is on a big VAX board. The real question, of course, is what happened to the 11/780s? Not that I really need to fit two more into my house, but still. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Aug 1 00:11:13 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2010 01:11:13 -0400 Subject: Perot collection? Message-ID: I received an email about VCFSW 1.0 on the ClassicMainframes list (the most dead list I am on, at about a message a month), and it talks about the collection of the Perot Group, down in Texas, possibly part of a tour. Does anyone know much about this collection? Supposedly it has some large IBMs. -- Will From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Aug 1 00:49:25 2010 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2010 22:49:25 -0700 Subject: Perot collection? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C550AE5.9040805@bitsavers.org> On 7/31/10 10:11 PM, William Donzelli wrote: > I received an email about VCFSW 1.0 on the ClassicMainframes list (the > most dead list I am on, at about a message a month), and it talks > about the collection of the Perot Group, down in Texas, possibly part > of a tour. Does anyone know much about this collection? Supposedly it > has some large IBMs. > > -- > Will > > There was something in the lobby of EDS. I can't find the pics right now. The weird thing was the pictures looked like it had several ENIAC racks. We've been trying to figure out if they were repos or loans. From fryers at gmail.com Sun Aug 1 02:30:44 2010 From: fryers at gmail.com (Simon Fryer) Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2010 07:30:44 +0000 Subject: DEC equipment available, UK (Cheltenham) In-Reply-To: <9ECDA8144B5F4A929D1E5D06289BA230@RodsDevSystem> References: <9ECDA8144B5F4A929D1E5D06289BA230@RodsDevSystem> Message-ID: Hi Rod, I have some bad news I am afraid. Another collector managed to put is hand up slightly faster. If he has problems with it I'll pass on your details as someone who may be interested. Thanks. Simon. On 30 July 2010 04:41, Rod Smallwood wrote: > Hi > > I don?t have one of those. > I'm located near Newbury. > However I do have a customer near Cheltenham and I'll be going there in a > week or so. > > Regards > > Rod Smallwood > > (The DecCollector) > > > Phone? 0118 971 4436 > Email?? rodsmallwood at btconnect.com > > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] > On Behalf Of Simon Fryer > Sent: 29 July 2010 13:41 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: DEC equipment available, UK (Cheltenham) > > All, > > I have a DECStation 5000/240 and a couple of Storage Expansion boxes I > would like to pass on to someone with more time and space than I have. > > The equipment is currently in Cheltenham, UK. I do a fair bit of > driving around the country so I *may* be able to deliver. > > Thanks. > > Simon -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "Well, an engineer is not concerned with the truth; that is left to philosophers and theologians: the prime concern of an engineer is the utility of the final product." Lectures on the Electrical Properties of Materials, L.Solymar, D.Walsh From pontus at Update.UU.SE Sun Aug 1 09:05:12 2010 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2010 16:05:12 +0200 Subject: Greetings fellow classiccmp'ers In-Reply-To: <2F51056DCBCE433F851B5D847E2320EC@OSA.local> References: <2F51056DCBCE433F851B5D847E2320EC@OSA.local> Message-ID: <20100801140512.GA28278@Update.UU.SE> On Sat, Jul 31, 2010 at 08:19:07PM -0500, Jay West wrote: > After a long hiatus from the hobby, I'm making some attempts to get back. Welcome back! I hope you don't drown in the mail ocean. /P From feedle at feedle.net Sun Aug 1 10:12:01 2010 From: feedle at feedle.net (A. C. Baumann) Date: Sun, 01 Aug 2010 08:12:01 -0700 Subject: retr0brite not so right? Message-ID: <49228b22-f3ea-40c8-aa4c-8069c6d39afa@email.android.com> Depends. I'd pay more for a working Replica I than a broken original. "Teo Zenios" wrote: >What is worth more, an Apple I motherboard with all original chips but maybe >non functional, and an Apple I motherboard that has been reworked to >function with later date coded chips and other parts. I would bet it is the >all original unit, and few if any collectors would even try to turn it on >anyway. > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "A. C. Baumann" >To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >Sent: Saturday, July 31, 2010 11:06 AM >Subject: Re: retr0brite not so right? > > >It is sensible to me that limited modification to maintain an operational >state wouldn't affect the collectible value much, especially compared to >"not working at all." > From jwest at classiccmp.org Sun Aug 1 11:24:17 2010 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2010 11:24:17 -0500 Subject: DG 800/1200 questions Message-ID: <42E490EB6EDD4A69A1AC3A8C992D566E@OSA.local> First on my bench will be a bunch (8 or so) of Data General 800/1200 machines and a few Nova 2's. I can think of several questions so far to get me started down the path: 1) A number of the 1200 machines have broken front panel toggle switches (the switch handle was broken off and lost). Some are spring return to center, some are just two position. Before I take the approach of robbing one of the machines for front panel switches, is there someplace that I can purchase exactly idential (both electrically and cosmetically) switches, or does some one have donor switches available for trade? I am a stickler for completely identical parts, especially for front panel switches :) I was hoping someone had been down this road before and knew the switch model #'s, etc. 2) I have quite a number (maybe around six or seven) of rackmount dual cassette tape units for these machines. I seem to recall that they use cassette tapes that are not identical to the standard common audio cassettes available today. Is anyone aware of where these special tapes can be purchased new? 3) With these machines I got a very large (several crates) library of cassette tapes as well as paper tapes, most appeared to be DG software rather than user data/backups. Are we pretty sure that most software for these machines has been archived somewhere, or should I send these tapes off to Al et. al. to have them read and saved for posterity before I put them in a questionable drive? As old as these tapes are, I wouldn't be suprised if one read was all they will allow. 4) Like #3 above, I have maybe 8 or 10 accounting storage boxes full of schematics & docs for all the circuit cards for the cpu's, interfaces, and peripherals mentioned above. I don't know what the current state of the DG archival project is. Is it likely that all these docs are already archived somewhere? Thanks in advance for any sage advice! Best, J From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Aug 1 12:29:15 2010 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 01 Aug 2010 10:29:15 -0700 Subject: DG 800/1200 questions In-Reply-To: <42E490EB6EDD4A69A1AC3A8C992D566E@OSA.local> References: <42E490EB6EDD4A69A1AC3A8C992D566E@OSA.local> Message-ID: <4C55AEEB.6080404@bitsavers.org> On 8/1/10 9:24 AM, Jay West wrote: > Are we pretty sure that most software for these machines has been archived somewhere, or should I send these tapes off to Al et. al. to have them read > I've been referring all DG software offers to Bruce Ray at Wild Hare. From nico at farumdata.dk Sun Aug 1 12:44:26 2010 From: nico at farumdata.dk (Nico de Jong) Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2010 19:44:26 +0200 Subject: DG 800/1200 questions References: <42E490EB6EDD4A69A1AC3A8C992D566E@OSA.local> Message-ID: Jay West wrote : >>2) I have quite a number (maybe around six or seven) of rackmount >> dual cassette tape units for these machines. I seem to recall that >> they use cassette tapes that are not identical to the standard >> common audio cassettes available today. Is anyone aware of where >> these special tapes can be purchased new? If they are identical to the ones I'm thinking of, they have a notch at the back. This notch of off-center. It enables you to test whether your are accessing side A or side B. I've used them extensively in Philips equipment, but they were also used by Facit and others. The capacity is 250k bytes per side, and the format is called ECMA34 Good luck From nico at farumdata.dk Sun Aug 1 12:51:58 2010 From: nico at farumdata.dk (Nico de Jong) Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2010 19:51:58 +0200 Subject: DG 800/1200 questions References: <42E490EB6EDD4A69A1AC3A8C992D566E@OSA.local> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nico de Jong" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Sunday, August 01, 2010 7:44 PM Subject: Re: DG 800/1200 questions > Jay West wrote : > >>>2) I have quite a number (maybe around six or seven) of rackmount dual >>>cassette tape units for these machines. I seem to recall that they use >>>cassette tapes that are not identical to the standard common audio >>>cassettes available today. Is anyone aware of where these special tapes >>>can be purchased new? > > If they are identical to the ones I'm thinking of, they have a notch > at the back. This notch of off-center. It enables you to test whether > your are accessing side A or side B. > I've used them extensively in Philips equipment, but they were also > used by Facit and others. > The capacity is 250k bytes per side, and the format is called ECMA34 > I seem to remember that the tape is "stiffer" then the one in audio cassettes. The magnetic coating is also different, in order to keep the bits "square". Normal audio could be used, but gives errors when reading (IIRC) From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Aug 1 13:15:58 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2010 19:15:58 +0100 (BST) Subject: retr0brite not so right? In-Reply-To: <49228b22-f3ea-40c8-aa4c-8069c6d39afa@email.android.com> from "A. C. Baumann" at Aug 1, 10 08:12:01 am Message-ID: [Apple 1, or other rare machines] > > Depends. > > I'd pay more for a working Replica I than a broken original. I probably wouldn't, but the first thing I would do with broken original is lower its value (?) bu repairing it. Of course I would use parts as close to the original as I could, and I would document the repairs. But, yes, I woudl take a soldering iron to it to get it working again. While I don;t have an Apple 1 (and don't _pariticuarly_ want one [1]). I have 1 or 2 machines that are considerably rarer. And yes, I've replaced chips in those where necessary. [1] OK, if somebody gave me one, I would accept it with thanks. And I would look after it. But if I won the lottery or something (difficult, since I don't enter :-)), I would not spend the money on an Apple 1. There are many other classic computers I would find more interesting. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Aug 1 13:58:54 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2010 19:58:54 +0100 (BST) Subject: DG 800/1200 questions In-Reply-To: from "Nico de Jong" at Aug 1, 10 07:44:26 pm Message-ID: > >>2) I have quite a number (maybe around six or seven) of rackmount > >> dual cassette tape units for these machines. I seem to recall that > >> they use cassette tapes that are not identical to the standard > >> common audio cassettes available today. Is anyone aware of where > >> these special tapes can be purchased new? > > If they are identical to the ones I'm thinking of, they have a notch > at the back. This notch of off-center. It enables you to test whether > your are accessing side A or side B. > I've used them extensively in Philips equipment, but they were also > used by Facit and others. > The capacity is 250k bytes per side, and the format is called ECMA34 While EGMA34 was a very common format for such cassettes, it was not the only one (AFAIK). I am sure I have sene at least one tape drive that uses such cassetes and uses at totally different format. The notch may well be used to ensure the cassette can only be fitted one way round with soem formats -- which use the entire width of the tape in one go. But alas I have no idea where you'd get the casssettes now. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Aug 1 14:03:05 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2010 20:03:05 +0100 (BST) Subject: DG 800/1200 questions In-Reply-To: from "Nico de Jong" at Aug 1, 10 07:44:26 pm Message-ID: > >>2) I have quite a number (maybe around six or seven) of rackmount > >> dual cassette tape units for these machines. I seem to recall that > >> they use cassette tapes that are not identical to the standard > >> common audio cassettes available today. Is anyone aware of where > >> these special tapes can be purchased new? > > If they are identical to the ones I'm thinking of, they have a notch > at the back. This notch of off-center. It enables you to test whether > your are accessing side A or side B. > I've used them extensively in Philips equipment, but they were also > used by Facit and others. > The capacity is 250k bytes per side, and the format is called ECMA34 One thing that I forgot to mention in my earlier msessag eis that the tape is differnet to that found in audio compact cassettes (I believe the data tapes have a higher coercivity). So nothcing the shells of audio cassettes is unlikely to produce reliable data tapes. -tony From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sun Aug 1 14:14:34 2010 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2010 12:14:34 -0700 Subject: DG 800/1200 questions In-Reply-To: <42E490EB6EDD4A69A1AC3A8C992D566E@OSA.local> References: <42E490EB6EDD4A69A1AC3A8C992D566E@OSA.local> Message-ID: <2093483bbc82660d0333af276b430781@cs.ubc.ca> On 2010 Aug 1, at 9:24 AM, Jay West wrote: > First on my bench will be a bunch (8 or so) of Data General 800/1200 > machines and a few Nova 2's. I can think of several questions so far > to get me started down the path: > > 1) A number of the 1200 machines have broken front panel toggle > switches (the switch handle was broken off and lost). Some are spring > return to center, some are just two position. Before I take the > approach of robbing one of the machines for front panel switches, is > there someplace that I can purchase exactly idential (both > electrically and cosmetically) switches, or does some one have donor > switches available for trade? I am a stickler for completely identical > parts, especially for front panel switches :) I was hoping someone had > been down this road before and knew the switch model #'s, etc. > Jay, is this the front panel in the first picture on the wikipedia page? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Data_General_Nova If those are 'standard size' mini-toggle switches, they may be C&K switches (typically having a red body). C&K switches tend to be well-marked with a type number stamped in the metal, and are fairly prevalent in equipment from the period. I have their catalog from the mid-70's with full listings. You might have greater luck finding replacements by specifying the manufacturer & type number. If the switch is an unusual pole arrangement or pin-type (PCB mount rather than wire eyelets) and the body of the switch is still present, it is sometimes possible to rebuild such switches with the toggle from a surplus one of more-common type. From shoppa at trailing-edge.com Sun Aug 1 14:55:10 2010 From: shoppa at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun, 01 Aug 2010 15:55:10 -0400 Subject: Greetings fellow classiccmp'ers Message-ID: <20100801195510.C7FAD1E0229@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Jay writes: > My jwest at classiccmp.org email address went unopened though, and I've > just started plowing through 22K (that's a count, not a size) of email. In the case of mailing lists I run, the spam making it through to the moderator and admin addresses (me in several instances) was truly out of control. See below for solution. > I'd like to update the classiccmp server (OS, apache, mysql, & mailman) > soon. To aid in that transition, I will probably temporarily migrate > all the sites & list to one of our clusters, load the classiccmp > server from scratch, and then migrate everything back. I'll > keep the list posted when I start down that path. Having recently migrated all the stuff on *.trailing-edge.com to a 2010 era server (as opposed to the 2000 era server it was on - previous to that it had been on an Alpha with VMS, and previous to that it had been on a VAX with VMS) with fresh installs of all the software I was pleasantly surprised with the advances that have been made in apache and mailman configuration over time especially with respect to virtual domains etc. In particular the Ubuntu distribution was very straightforward to deal with... after I had adopted to the more modern configuration techniques. And spamassassin can be better integrated with postfix and mailman than in the past, to the point where the obvious spams never have to make it to a moderator's mailbox or turn up as a bogus request to the admin address. I'm not sure you need to stage through an intermediate platform, BTW. Just bite the bullet and go to the final platform. Unless you really enjoy installing and configuring everything twice. Although I was pleasantly surprised with the new Apache etc. configuration methods I still wouldn't want to do it twice. Tim. From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sun Aug 1 15:00:20 2010 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2010 13:00:20 -0700 Subject: DG 800/1200 questions In-Reply-To: <2093483bbc82660d0333af276b430781@cs.ubc.ca> References: <42E490EB6EDD4A69A1AC3A8C992D566E@OSA.local> <2093483bbc82660d0333af276b430781@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: On 2010 Aug 1, at 12:14 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > On 2010 Aug 1, at 9:24 AM, Jay West wrote: > >> First on my bench will be a bunch (8 or so) of Data General 800/1200 >> machines and a few Nova 2's. I can think of several questions so far >> to get me started down the path: >> >> 1) A number of the 1200 machines have broken front panel toggle >> switches (the switch handle was broken off and lost). Some are spring >> return to center, some are just two position. Before I take the >> approach of robbing one of the machines for front panel switches, is >> there someplace that I can purchase exactly idential (both >> electrically and cosmetically) switches, or does some one have donor >> switches available for trade? I am a stickler for completely >> identical parts, especially for front panel switches :) I was hoping >> someone had been down this road before and knew the switch model #'s, >> etc. >> > > Jay, is this the front panel in the first picture on the wikipedia > page? > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Data_General_Nova > > If those are 'standard size' mini-toggle switches, they may be C&K > switches (typically having a red body). > > C&K switches tend to be well-marked with a type number stamped in the > metal, and are fairly prevalent in equipment from the period. I have > their catalog from the mid-70's with full listings. You might have > greater luck finding replacements by specifying the manufacturer & > type number. (Sorry, looking at your message again I see you were asking for the model #'s.) If they are C&K switches: http://www.ck-components.com/product-matrix,21144,en.html probably in the 7000 series, apparently they are still available: http://www.ck-components.com/7000/toggle,10598,en.html The full catalog is there under "Download 7000 catalog pages". A bazillion options. From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Sun Aug 1 14:37:26 2010 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2010 21:37:26 +0200 Subject: DG 800/1200 questions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >> >>2) I have quite a number (maybe around six or seven) of rackmount >> >> dual cassette tape units for these machines. I seem to recall that >> >> they use cassette tapes that are not identical to the standard >> >> common audio cassettes available today. Is anyone aware of where >> >> these special tapes can be purchased new? >> >> If they are identical to the ones I'm thinking of, they have a notch >> at the back. This notch of off-center. It enables you to test whether >> your are accessing side A or side B. >> I've used them extensively in Philips equipment, but they were also >> used by Facit and others. >> The capacity is 250k bytes per side, and the format is called ECMA34 > > While EGMA34 was a very common format for such cassettes, it was not the > only one (AFAIK). I am sure I have sene at least one tape drive that uses > such cassetes and uses at totally different format. The notch may well be > used to ensure the cassette can only be fitted one way round with soem > formats -- which use the entire width of the tape in one go. > > But alas I have no idea where you'd get the casssettes now. > > -tony I am not sure, but is it possible that the DIGITAL TU60 DECassette uses the same type of tape? I have a picture of such a tape on my site (www.pdp-11.nl/peripherals/tape/tu60-info.html). I have just a few of them (IIRC, I'd have to check on that). If those tapes can be used on DG, I might make one or two available for you Jay. - Henk. From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sun Aug 1 16:23:28 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2010 14:23:28 -0700 Subject: M20 Olivetti on German eBay In-Reply-To: References: <42E490EB6EDD4A69A1AC3A8C992D566E@OSA.local>, <2093483bbc82660d0333af276b430781@cs.ubc.ca>, Message-ID: Hi For anyone that might be interested, there is an M20 up for auction on the German eBay. These are not your normal PC. They used a Z8000 processor instead of the X86. It needs some repair and a monitor but is still a cool machine. The monitor is a little tricky but I'm told an M24 monitor can be wired to work. I have two of these in my collection and I have one working with a hard disk. I've got both PCOS and CP/M-8000 working on mine. Dwight From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sun Aug 1 16:37:05 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2010 14:37:05 -0700 Subject: Greetings fellow classiccmp'ers In-Reply-To: <2F51056DCBCE433F851B5D847E2320EC@OSA.local> References: <2F51056DCBCE433F851B5D847E2320EC@OSA.local> Message-ID: > From: jwest at classiccmp.org > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Greetings fellow classiccmp'ers > Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2010 20:19:07 -0500 > ---snip--- > I haven't touched anything classiccmp related in eons. While my beloved HP 21MX systems and DEC systems are all still pristine, categorized, and running - I have fallen fall short in the other areas of my collection (mostly lots of DG and one Microdata). I hope to focus on the DG side of my collection for a while and will no doubt be asking for help here as that's a completely new area for me. As always, if anyone needs any help with HP 21MX related items I'd be glad to help (as much as my rusty memory will allow). > Hi Jay I have my 21MX on my list to play with. I bought a 488 board for it that I'd intended to create a disk system using a PC. I'm in the middle of other projects ( most not classic computers ) but hope to spend time playing with my 21MX. I've written a simple assembler on my PC to create binaries that I'll use to bootstrap things. I could use some register information on the 488 card I got for the 21MX but not found any online for it yet. I forget the board number but can look it up when I get back to my storage. Dwight From jwest at classiccmp.org Sun Aug 1 17:11:18 2010 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2010 17:11:18 -0500 Subject: Greetings fellow classiccmp'ers References: <2F51056DCBCE433F851B5D847E2320EC@OSA.local>, <4C547011.8091.233B62E@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: I love the captcha/token idea... on the other hand it does make mailman a system that's no longer mail-only. Might go that route though... J From jwest at classiccmp.org Sun Aug 1 17:12:52 2010 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2010 17:12:52 -0500 Subject: Greetings fellow classiccmp'ers References: <2F51056DCBCE433F851B5D847E2320EC@OSA.local>, <4C547011.8091.233B62E@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <5BEE34D5E7A84BF496A3A12A1C0ABDDB@OSA.local> David wrote... > Before getting complex for the user, how about running each subscribe > attempt through a black hole lookup? If it passes, then send the > subscribe attempt to the moderator. The spam front end already does a scad of various RBL-type lookups before sending it through. J From jwest at classiccmp.org Sun Aug 1 17:18:17 2010 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2010 17:18:17 -0500 Subject: Greetings fellow classiccmp'ers References: <2F51056DCBCE433F851B5D847E2320EC@OSA.local> <4C54FD2B.7060601@vaxen.net> Message-ID: Doc wrote... > "We thought you was DEAD!" :^) While I wasn't reading my email, I was still on the classiccmp IRC channel pretty much every nite. I heard about Evan's rumor back then, as well as whatever was going on the list ;) J From brain at jbrain.com Sun Aug 1 17:22:01 2010 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Sun, 01 Aug 2010 17:22:01 -0500 Subject: Greetings fellow classiccmp'ers In-Reply-To: <20100801195510.C7FAD1E0229@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> References: <20100801195510.C7FAD1E0229@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <4C55F389.1040504@jbrain.com> On 8/1/2010 2:55 PM, Tim Shoppa wrote: > I'd like to update the classiccmp server (OS, apache, mysql, & mailman) >> soon. To aid in that transition, I will probably temporarily migrate >> all the sites& list to one of our clusters, load the classiccmp >> server from scratch, and then migrate everything back. I'll >> keep the list posted when I start down that path. >> > Having recently migrated all the stuff on *.trailing-edge.com to a 2010 > era server (as opposed to the 2000 era server it was on - previous > to that it had been on an Alpha with VMS, and previous to that it > had been on a VAX with VMS) with > fresh installs of all the software I was pleasantly > surprised with the advances that have been made in apache and mailman > configuration over time especially with respect to virtual domains etc. > In particular the Ubuntu distribution was very straightforward to deal with... > after I had adopted to the more modern configuration techniques. > On the Google Groups list I manage, the admin interface has an option to "moderate first post". I suspect it puts all new users in a probation list, and then whitelists them once the moderator has moderated their first post to the list. I wonder if the mailman/etc. solutions have something similar. Jim From jwest at classiccmp.org Sun Aug 1 17:33:32 2010 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2010 17:33:32 -0500 Subject: Greetings fellow classiccmp'ers References: <20100801195510.C7FAD1E0229@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: It was written.... > And spamassassin can be better integrated with postfix and mailman than > in the past, to the point where the obvious spams never have to make it > to a moderator's mailbox or turn up as a bogus request to the admin > address. Got all the latest stuff running on a different machine, but FYI I'm a sendmail freak :) > I'm not sure you need to stage through an intermediate platform, BTW. > Just bite the bullet and go to the final platform. Unless you really > enjoy installing and configuring everything twice. Although I was > pleasantly surprised with the new Apache etc. configuration methods > I still wouldn't want to do it twice. No, not doing it twice. One of my companies is a hosting company, so I don't have to install anything twice. Just migrates sites & services to one of the machines in our of our clusters, then reload louie.classiccmp.org, then migrate them back :) J From jwest at classiccmp.org Sun Aug 1 17:37:12 2010 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2010 17:37:12 -0500 Subject: DG 800/1200 questions References: <42E490EB6EDD4A69A1AC3A8C992D566E@OSA.local> <2093483bbc82660d0333af276b430781@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <72FEA8E09ADB410EBC8C3D43574690AD@OSA.local> Brent wrote... > Jay, is this the front panel in the first picture on the wikipedia page? > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Data_General_Nova Yep, that's the ones. > If those are 'standard size' mini-toggle switches, they may be C&K > switches (typically having a red body). Oh, I'm sure they are C&K... I was just hoping someone already knew the correct part number for the identical switches :) J From jwest at classiccmp.org Sun Aug 1 17:42:34 2010 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2010 17:42:34 -0500 Subject: DG 800/1200 questions References: Message-ID: <72C33D549643461F9D2D1C8BE90348DE@OSA.local> Tony wrote... > While EGMA34 was a very common format for such cassettes, it was not the > only one (AFAIK). I am sure I have sene at least one tape drive that uses > such cassetes and uses at totally different format. The notch may well be > used to ensure the cassette can only be fitted one way round with soem > formats -- which use the entire width of the tape in one go. >From what I skimmed in some docs, it looks like these DG tape units use the entire width of the tape. But no way to fake higher coercivity :\ > But alas I have no idea where you'd get the casssettes now. These units are in mint shape, was hoping they wouldn't be paperweights :\ J From cclist at sydex.com Sun Aug 1 18:07:35 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 01 Aug 2010 16:07:35 -0700 Subject: DG 800/1200 questions In-Reply-To: <72C33D549643461F9D2D1C8BE90348DE@OSA.local> References: , <72C33D549643461F9D2D1C8BE90348DE@OSA.local> Message-ID: <4C559BC7.12832.1F76A06@cclist.sydex.com> On 1 Aug 2010 at 17:42, Jay West wrote: > >From what I skimmed in some docs, it looks like these DG tape units > >use the > entire width of the tape. But no way to fake higher coercivity :\ > > > But alas I have no idea where you'd get the casssettes now. > These units are in mint shape, was hoping they wouldn't be > paperweights :\ See http://tinyurl.com/24z4aoc Are we talking about saturation remanence or coercivity? The Hc of computer and audio tapes are approximately the same, but the Mr is quite a bit different. On the other hand, if ordinary gamma ferric oxide audio tape doesn't work, CrO2 audio tape might be an option. FWIW, Chuck From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Aug 1 18:13:24 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2010 19:13:24 -0400 Subject: Perot collection? In-Reply-To: <4C550AE5.9040805@bitsavers.org> References: <4C550AE5.9040805@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: > There was something in the lobby of EDS. I can't find the pics right now. > The weird thing was the pictures looked like it had several ENIAC racks. > We've been trying to figure out if they were repos or loans. >From the site: "SPECIAL NOTICE: The Perot group has an interesting collection in Plano, TX that includes many IBM machines. It also includes portions of the original ENIAC. If there is sufficient interest we will be able to arrange a tour of this facility either on Friday, August 6th or Monday, August 9th. Arrangements will have to be made in advance for each attendee, so be sure to contact us early if you are interested." -- Will From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Aug 1 18:26:03 2010 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 01 Aug 2010 16:26:03 -0700 Subject: Greetings fellow classiccmp'ers In-Reply-To: <2F51056DCBCE433F851B5D847E2320EC@OSA.local> References: <2F51056DCBCE433F851B5D847E2320EC@OSA.local> Message-ID: <4C56028B.4060808@bitsavers.org> On 7/31/10 6:19 PM, Jay West wrote: > I'd like to update the classiccmp server (OS, apache, mysql,& mailman) soon. Looks like the Opteron has been working pretty well. One thing that would be nice is to have web stats again. They haven't worked since the server move. From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Aug 1 18:27:36 2010 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 01 Aug 2010 16:27:36 -0700 Subject: Perot collection? In-Reply-To: References: <4C550AE5.9040805@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4C5602E8.60104@bitsavers.org> On 8/1/10 4:13 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >> There was something in the lobby of EDS. I can't find the pics right now. >> The weird thing was the pictures looked like it had several ENIAC racks. >> We've been trying to figure out if they were repos or loans. > >> From the site: > URL? > "SPECIAL NOTICE: The Perot group has an interesting collection in > Plano, TX that includes many IBM machines. It also includes portions > of the original ENIAC. We would be VERY interested in knowing which racks they have. From evan at snarc.net Sun Aug 1 18:39:26 2010 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Sun, 01 Aug 2010 19:39:26 -0400 Subject: Perot collection? In-Reply-To: <4C5602E8.60104@bitsavers.org> References: <4C550AE5.9040805@bitsavers.org> <4C5602E8.60104@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4C5605AE.3070905@snarc.net> > >> "SPECIAL NOTICE: The Perot group has an interesting collection in >> Plano, TX that includes many IBM machines. It also includes portions >> of the original ENIAC. > > We would be VERY interested in knowing which racks they have. This might help: http://www.flickr.com/photos/rboyett/sets/72157600358828523/ From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Aug 1 19:43:41 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2010 20:43:41 -0400 Subject: Perot collection? In-Reply-To: <4C5602E8.60104@bitsavers.org> References: <4C550AE5.9040805@bitsavers.org> <4C5602E8.60104@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: > URL? http://mit-a.com/VCF1.shtml -- Will From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Sun Aug 1 20:13:39 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2010 22:13:39 -0300 Subject: DG 800/1200 questions References: Message-ID: <062001cb31e0$93a28c90$0600000a@portajara> > One thing that I forgot to mention in my earlier msessag eis that the > tape is differnet to that found in audio compact cassettes (I believe the > data tapes have a higher coercivity). So nothcing the shells of audio > cassettes is unlikely to produce reliable data tapes. High-quality VHS video tape? Or Metal cassetes? From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Sun Aug 1 20:15:20 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2010 22:15:20 -0300 Subject: DG 800/1200 questions References: <72C33D549643461F9D2D1C8BE90348DE@OSA.local> Message-ID: <062101cb31e0$9511acf0$0600000a@portajara> >>From what I skimmed in some docs, it looks like these DG tape units use >>the > entire width of the tape. But no way to fake higher coercivity :\ You can always mod the cassete drive :) But why not use higher coercivity tape anyways? From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Aug 1 20:37:51 2010 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 01 Aug 2010 18:37:51 -0700 Subject: Perot collection? In-Reply-To: <4C5605AE.3070905@snarc.net> References: <4C550AE5.9040805@bitsavers.org> <4C5602E8.60104@bitsavers.org> <4C5605AE.3070905@snarc.net> Message-ID: <4C56216F.2050903@bitsavers.org> On 8/1/10 4:39 PM, Evan Koblentz wrote: > >> >>> "SPECIAL NOTICE: The Perot group has an interesting collection in >>> Plano, TX that includes many IBM machines. It also includes portions >>> of the original ENIAC. >> >> We would be VERY interested in knowing which racks they have. > > This might help: > http://www.flickr.com/photos/rboyett/sets/72157600358828523/ > > What is curious is this claims there is only one panel in private hands. http://rfidsrv.eecs.umich.edu/csebuilding/doku.php?id=1667 From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sun Aug 1 20:52:32 2010 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2010 18:52:32 -0700 Subject: Perot collection? In-Reply-To: <4C5605AE.3070905@snarc.net> References: <4C550AE5.9040805@bitsavers.org> <4C5602E8.60104@bitsavers.org> <4C5605AE.3070905@snarc.net> Message-ID: On 2010 Aug 1, at 4:39 PM, Evan Koblentz wrote: >>> "SPECIAL NOTICE: The Perot group has an interesting collection in >>> Plano, TX that includes many IBM machines. It also includes portions >>> of the original ENIAC. >> >> We would be VERY interested in knowing which racks they have. > > This might help: > http://www.flickr.com/photos/rboyett/sets/72157600358828523/ My gosh, how did those fly under the radar for so long? I take it the display is not normally accessible to the public. That's another 6 of the 40 racks of ENIAC. How much of ENIAC is known then to still exist? Some of the blinkenlights appear to be on in the photos, I wonder if or how much the units have been modified to accomplish this. From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Sun Aug 1 22:34:11 2010 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2010 23:34:11 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Mystery print drum In-Reply-To: <4C5605AE.3070905@snarc.net> References: <4C550AE5.9040805@bitsavers.org> <4C5602E8.60104@bitsavers.org> <4C5605AE.3070905@snarc.net> Message-ID: I have an unidentified drum from a line printer, 120 columns and 64 characters. The characters are the same on each horizontal line, and the drum is one solid piece. Can anyone hazard a guess as to which printer this might fit? There are no part numbers on it. Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Sun Aug 1 22:39:51 2010 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2010 23:39:51 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Mystery print drum In-Reply-To: References: <4C550AE5.9040805@bitsavers.org> <4C5602E8.60104@bitsavers.org> <4C5605AE.3070905@snarc.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 1 Aug 2010, Mike Loewen wrote: > I have an unidentified drum from a line printer, 120 columns and 64 > characters. The characters are the same on each horizontal line, and the > drum is one solid piece. Can anyone hazard a guess as to which printer this > might fit? There are no part numbers on it. Oops, that should be 160 columns, not 120. Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From legalize at xmission.com Sun Aug 1 23:30:24 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 01 Aug 2010 22:30:24 -0600 Subject: wall of sgi photos Message-ID: I finally got around to taking some photos of the warehouse where my collection is stored (along with my friend's arcade game collection and a computer recycling outfit). Most of my stuff isn't really in good "show" condition right now as I'm trying to organize my friend's arcade machines and my space is temporarily filled with some of his overflow stuff to make holes so I can move machines around. At any rate, you can get a good view of my Tektronix storage tube terminals and my wall of sgi. Also, there are some photos of the Eve cabinets for Jos Dreesen. Sorry, just one side of the exterior of the cabinets for now, board photos to come later when things aren't so cramped. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From teoz at neo.rr.com Sun Aug 1 23:38:31 2010 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2010 00:38:31 -0400 Subject: wall of sgi photos References: Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Richard" To: Sent: Monday, August 02, 2010 12:30 AM Subject: wall of sgi photos >I finally got around to taking some photos of the warehouse where my > collection is stored (along with my friend's arcade game collection > and a computer recycling outfit). Most of my stuff isn't really in > good "show" condition right now as I'm trying to organize my friend's > arcade machines and my space is temporarily filled with some of his > overflow stuff to make holes so I can move machines around. At any > rate, you can get a good view of my Tektronix storage tube terminals > and my wall of sgi. Also, there are some photos of the Eve cabinets > for Jos Dreesen. Sorry, just one side of the exterior of the cabinets > for now, board photos to come later when things aren't so cramped. > > > > -- Those arcade machines look nice, does he play them at all? And you have quite a few SGI machines. From cclist at sydex.com Sun Aug 1 23:40:31 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 01 Aug 2010 21:40:31 -0700 Subject: Mystery print drum In-Reply-To: References: , , Message-ID: <4C55E9CF.5920.3283BF5@cclist.sydex.com> On 1 Aug 2010 at 23:39, Mike Loewen wrote: > On Sun, 1 Aug 2010, Mike Loewen wrote: > > > I have an unidentified drum from a line printer, 120 columns and > > 64 > > characters. The characters are the same on each horizontal line, > > and the drum is one solid piece. Can anyone hazard a guess as to > > which printer this might fit? There are no part numbers on it. > > Oops, that should be 160 columns, not 120. Univac and CDC both had drum printers in the 60s/70s with 6-bit character sets. --Chuck From legalize at xmission.com Sun Aug 1 23:47:52 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 01 Aug 2010 22:47:52 -0600 Subject: wall of sgi photos In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 02 Aug 2010 00:38:31 -0400. Message-ID: In article , "Teo Zenios" writes: > Those arcade machines look nice, does he play them at all? The ones that he plays regularly are not stored at the warehouse :-). The warehouse isn't really wired with sufficient power for these and a number of these need some repairs before they would function again. Some need minor repair, some need major repair. > And you have quite a few SGI machines. Yes, I'm in the same boat when it comes to power. If we already had appropriate power and HVAC in this location, I'd have made the machines operational again. However, we currently rent this place and we are looking to move to a location where we are buying and not renting. At that point I would consider investments in infrastructure, but I don't feel like improving a place we're just going to leave anyway. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From curt at atarimuseum.com Mon Aug 2 00:33:48 2010 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2010 01:33:48 -0400 Subject: wall of sgi photos In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C5658BC.3010709@atarimuseum.com> Wow!!! picking jaw off the desk now.... Richard wrote: > I finally got around to taking some photos of the warehouse where my > collection is stored (along with my friend's arcade game collection > and a computer recycling outfit). Most of my stuff isn't really in > good "show" condition right now as I'm trying to organize my friend's > arcade machines and my space is temporarily filled with some of his > overflow stuff to make holes so I can move machines around. At any > rate, you can get a good view of my Tektronix storage tube terminals > and my wall of sgi. Also, there are some photos of the Eve cabinets > for Jos Dreesen. Sorry, just one side of the exterior of the cabinets > for now, board photos to come later when things aren't so cramped. > > > > From pontus at Update.UU.SE Mon Aug 2 01:35:51 2010 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2010 08:35:51 +0200 Subject: wall of sgi photos In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20100802063551.GA13677@Update.UU.SE> On Sun, Aug 01, 2010 at 10:30:24PM -0600, Richard wrote: > > Wow! The SGI section makes me drool a bit. Do you have the skins for your Crimson and Challenge desksides? If you don't mind I'll forward this link to the nekochan forums. The minirack with 9-track tape and RX-80, is it a round hole rack? And if so, where can I get one? The Aesthedes 2D system looks impressive, it has an Apple apple on it, can you tell us more about it? Thanks for sharing, Pontus. From legalize at xmission.com Mon Aug 2 01:40:51 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2010 00:40:51 -0600 Subject: wall of sgi photos In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 02 Aug 2010 08:35:51 +0200. <20100802063551.GA13677@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: In article <20100802063551.GA13677 at Update.UU.SE>, Pontus Pihlgren writes: > On Sun, Aug 01, 2010 at 10:30:24PM -0600, Richard wrote: > > > > > > Wow! The SGI section makes me drool a bit. Do you have the skins for > your Crimson and Challenge desksides? If you don't mind I'll forward > this link to the nekochan forums. Got skins for the Crimson, but missing a few pieces for the Onyx deskside (Challenge is XL). I already posted to nekochan :-) > The minirack with 9-track tape and RX-80, is it a round hole rack? And > if so, where can I get one? I picked it up in an equipment waterfall process from an employer. I imagine you can get them commercially or on ebay. Its nothing special. It does have wheels, so that's nice. > The Aesthedes 2D system looks impressive, it has an Apple apple on it, > can you tell us more about it? The apple sticker was just placed on there; it has nothing to do with apple. Its a vertical market turnkey system for 2D graphic design from the mid 1980s. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From rodsmallwood at btconnect.com Mon Aug 2 01:46:06 2010 From: rodsmallwood at btconnect.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2010 06:46:06 -0000 Subject: Pronouncing acronyms (was Re: DEC acronyms) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The ones I do remember 1. BA11-ES always referred to as a Balls box 2. RSTS as Ristus 3. RSX as Our sex Plus those pronounced as written MUMPS, HASP, KMON, RMON Regards ? Rod Smallwood ? ? -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Ethan Dicks Sent: 30 July 2010 21:20 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Pronouncing acronyms (was Re: DEC acronyms) On 7/30/10, Tony Duell wrote: >> One of my "hobbies" (some >> might call it an obsession) is figuring a way to pronounce any given >> acronym as a word.... > > :-) > > I've been know to refer to the 5150 as the 'I-Bum Puck' :-). The first > 'I' is short --'e' not 'eye' as I pronounce it... Here, I've heard "Ih-bem Peck" (same 'i' sound you describe), but it was usually used in a less-than-flattering context. The most gratuitous example of this I can recall is the Sesame Street character Big Bird attempting to pronounce the 26-letter Western alphabet as a single word ("ab-cer-def-gee-jeckle-mernop-kur-stoov-wik-siz" - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ABC%E2%80%93DEF%E2%80%93GHI) -ethan From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Aug 2 09:55:12 2010 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2010 08:55:12 -0600 Subject: DG 800/1200 questions In-Reply-To: <42E490EB6EDD4A69A1AC3A8C992D566E@OSA.local> References: <42E490EB6EDD4A69A1AC3A8C992D566E@OSA.local> Message-ID: <4C56DC50.4050104@jetnet.ab.ca> Jay West wrote: > 2) I have quite a number (maybe around six or seven) of rackmount > dual cassette tape units for these machines. I seem to recall that > they use cassette tapes that are not identical to the standard common > audio cassettes available today. Is anyone aware of where these > special tapes can be purchased new? Would not the tapes used for the C64 be the same? All the other tapes I can think of is for audio, not digital recording. If you do find tapes it would be a box of 24 or so in some warehouse. Ben. From trag at io.com Mon Aug 2 10:03:30 2010 From: trag at io.com (Jeff Walther) Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2010 10:03:30 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Apple/Mac floppy questions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2010 20:39:37 +0100 (BST) > From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) > One thing to watch for are the little 20-way Apple ribbon cables that > link these drives to the mainboard. They are not what they seem -- in > particlar 1 ro 2 wries are not wires at all, but solid plastic, so those > pins of the connectors are not linked. If they are, then all sorts of odd > things happen (Eject motor runs continuously???) > > I beelive there are at least 2 versions of the calbe (for double sided > and high density drives>?, with different coloured pin 1 tracers. A Mac > enthusiast may know more. I don't remember all the details. I do remember that there is a cable with a yellow stripe on pin 1 and another version of the cable with a red stripe. If you install the wrong cable (can't remember whether it's red for yellow or yellow for red) the eject motor does indeed run continuously. It doesn't seem to damage the drive; I never let it run more than a few seconds. So it's easy enough to identify and correct. Jeff Walther From gyorpb at gmail.com Mon Aug 2 10:12:05 2010 From: gyorpb at gmail.com (Joost van de Griek) Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2010 17:12:05 +0200 Subject: DG 800/1200 questions In-Reply-To: <4C56DC50.4050104@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <42E490EB6EDD4A69A1AC3A8C992D566E@OSA.local> <4C56DC50.4050104@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Aug 2, 2010, at 16:55, Ben wrote: > Jay West wrote: > >> 2) I have quite a number (maybe around six or seven) of rackmount >> dual cassette tape units for these machines. I seem to recall that >> they use cassette tapes that are not identical to the standard common >> audio cassettes available today. Is anyone aware of where these >> special tapes can be purchased new? > > Would not the tapes used for the C64 be the same? > All the other tapes I can think of is for audio, not digital > recording. If you do find tapes it would be a box of 24 or > so in some warehouse. No, not the same. C64, like pretty much every other 1980's home computer, used plain (Type I, ferro) audio cassettes; but I distinctly remember seeing tape streamer tapes listed in catalogues with the same mechanical characteristics as audio cassettes, bar for a cutout in the center of the long, narrower side of the housing. This presumably to prevent regular audio cassettes from being used in the tape drives. I'd assume they had at least different magnetic properties, if not minor mechanical differences, too. .tsooJ From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Mon Aug 2 10:13:49 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2010 16:13:49 +0100 Subject: retr0brite not so right? In-Reply-To: <49228b22-f3ea-40c8-aa4c-8069c6d39afa@email.android.com> References: <49228b22-f3ea-40c8-aa4c-8069c6d39afa@email.android.com> Message-ID: <4C56E0AD.4000408@philpem.me.uk> On 01/08/10 16:12, A. C. Baumann wrote: > Depends. > > I'd pay more for a working Replica I than a broken original. I'd take the broken original, then the first thing I'd to is bring out the testgear and fix the thing. I'd keep the original parts with it, but IMHO a machine is worth more if it's actually working... -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Mon Aug 2 10:22:39 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2010 16:22:39 +0100 Subject: retr0brite not so right? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C56E2BF.1080002@philpem.me.uk> On 01/08/10 19:15, Tony Duell wrote: (re: Apple 1) > [1] OK, if somebody gave me one, I would accept it with thanks. And I > would look after it. But if I won the lottery or something (difficult, > since I don't enter :-)), I would not spend the money on an Apple 1. > There are many other classic computers I would find more interesting. Same here. If I won the lottery I'd be building up a half-decent home machine shop... My interest is in the old single-board and embedded machines. I'm not too interested in the Apple I, but I do find (for example) the Acorn System series, Elektor Junior, Synertek Sym-1, MOS KIM-1 and Rockwell AIM-65 interesting. Not interesting enough to pay the stupid money they're selling for on Ebay, but interesting enough that I might spend a few evenings entering the design into Quartus and doing an FPGA re-implementation, or building a clone on Veroboard. (But of course if someone offered to sell me one of the above for what I thought was a 'reasonable price', I wouldn't say no, even if I had to spend a month of weekends doing debugging and component-level repair work) Exceptions would be the Apple II and Acorn BBC Micro. The AII on the grounds that I think it's neat how the parts count was pushed so low (especially on things like the disc controller) and the Acorn because it was pretty much the first "real" computer I used... -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From afra at aurigae.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 2 10:38:56 2010 From: afra at aurigae.demon.co.uk (afra at aurigae.demon.co.uk) Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2010 16:38:56 +0100 Subject: Pronouncing acronyms (was Re: DEC acronyms) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20100802163856.195860ysz2p76k4c@aurigae.demon.co.uk> Quoting Rod Smallwood : > 3. RSX as Our sex Heheh the 6809 actually had a SEX mnemonic SignEXtend :) > Plus those pronounced as written MUMPS, HASP, KMON, RMON then there's my pet hate at the moment SATA pronounced sarta !!!! Phill. ---------------------------------------------------------------- This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. From ploopster at gmail.com Mon Aug 2 10:59:42 2010 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2010 11:59:42 -0400 Subject: DG 800/1200 questions In-Reply-To: References: <42E490EB6EDD4A69A1AC3A8C992D566E@OSA.local> <4C56DC50.4050104@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4C56EB6E.4090501@gmail.com> Joost van de Griek wrote: > No, not the same. C64, like pretty much every other 1980's home > computer, used plain (Type I, ferro) audio cassettes; but I distinctly > remember seeing tape streamer tapes listed in catalogues with the same > mechanical characteristics as audio cassettes, bar for a cutout in the > center of the long, narrower side of the housing. This presumably to > prevent regular audio cassettes from being used in the tape drives. I'd > assume they had at least different magnetic properties, if not minor > mechanical differences, too. With my Sinclair, I've been using a midrange home stereo tape deck to store data. The deck has bias settings for ferrous, chromium dioxide and metal tapes. I've had distinctly better luck with data lifetimes on metal cassettes. Peace... Sridhar From cclist at sydex.com Mon Aug 2 11:14:18 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2010 09:14:18 -0700 Subject: Mystery print drum In-Reply-To: <4C55E9CF.5920.3283BF5@cclist.sydex.com> References: , , <4C55E9CF.5920.3283BF5@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4C568C6A.3061.6858E@cclist.sydex.com> > On 1 Aug 2010 at 23:39, Mike Loewen wrote: > > > On Sun, 1 Aug 2010, Mike Loewen wrote: > > > > > I have an unidentified drum from a line printer, 120 columns and > > > 64 > > > characters. The characters are the same on each horizontal line, > > > and the drum is one solid piece. Can anyone hazard a guess as to > > > which printer this might fit? There are no part numbers on it. > > > > Oops, that should be 160 columns... An afterthought--it would be useful to list the non-alphanumeric characters. They were far from standard in the old days and sometimes you could tell a maker by the character set. --Chuck From shumaker at att.net Mon Aug 2 12:14:31 2010 From: shumaker at att.net (steve shumaker) Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2010 13:14:31 -0400 Subject: intel MSD-720 Message-ID: <4C56FCF7.4020907@att.net> can anyone shed some light on what this might be: Floppy Disk Drives (internal) 8" dual drive console, Intel MSD-720 item is listed in a large Craigs List ad that's been up essentially unchanged for months attempts to get more info out of the seller have been less than successful. the closest thing I can find is a reference to an "option 720" on classiccomp's link to Joe's Intel MDS page. MDS 200 series apparently had something called "option 720" but there's little info about it other than it appears to be an external floppy unit. thoughts welcome.... Steve From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 2 12:30:17 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2010 18:30:17 +0100 (BST) Subject: DG 800/1200 questions In-Reply-To: from "Henk Gooijen" at Aug 1, 10 09:37:26 pm Message-ID: > I am not sure, but is it possible that the DIGITAL TU60 DECassette > uses the same type of tape? I have a picture of such a tape on my I am almost sure the TU60 does use the same type of tapes... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 2 13:21:01 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2010 19:21:01 +0100 (BST) Subject: DG 800/1200 questions In-Reply-To: <72C33D549643461F9D2D1C8BE90348DE@OSA.local> from "Jay West" at Aug 1, 10 05:42:34 pm Message-ID: > > But alas I have no idea where you'd get the casssettes now. > These units are in mint shape, was hoping they wouldn't be paperweights :\ How many tapes do you need? It's possible there are a few around in people's junk boxes, if you need <10 or so... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 2 13:27:36 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2010 19:27:36 +0100 (BST) Subject: DG 800/1200 questions In-Reply-To: <062001cb31e0$93a28c90$0600000a@portajara> from "Alexandre Souza - Listas" at Aug 1, 10 10:13:39 pm Message-ID: > > data tapes have a higher coercivity). So nothcing the shells of audio > > cassettes is unlikely to produce reliable data tapes. What I meant to say was that nothing that's supplied in normal audio cassette sheels seems to work as reliable data tape in ECMA34 (or similar) drives... > > High-quality VHS video tape? Or Metal cassetes? I have never tried 'metal' tapes... maybne worth a try... And if you want to try slicing down 1/2" video tape into the right width for these cassetes, I wish you luck :-)) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 2 13:24:58 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2010 19:24:58 +0100 (BST) Subject: DG 800/1200 questions In-Reply-To: <4C559BC7.12832.1F76A06@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Aug 1, 10 04:07:35 pm Message-ID: > Are we talking about saturation remanence or coercivity? The Hc of > computer and audio tapes are approximately the same, but the Mr is > quite a bit different. I'd assumed it was the coercivity that was differnt, but mayne it's the remanence. I will admit I've not done any measurement :-). I am pretty sure that audio cassetes (even with a notch cut in them) do not work well in ECMA34 tape drives. And that the data tapes make lousy audio tapes at any normal bias setting. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 2 13:32:44 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2010 19:32:44 +0100 (BST) Subject: DG 800/1200 questions In-Reply-To: from "Joost van de Griek" at Aug 2, 10 05:12:05 pm Message-ID: > No, not the same. C64, like pretty much every other 1980's home > computer, used plain (Type I, ferro) audio cassettes; but I distinctly > remember seeing tape streamer tapes listed in catalogues with the same > mechanical characteristics as audio cassettes, bar for a cutout in the > center of the long, narrower side of the housing. This presumably to > prevent regular audio cassettes from being used in the tape drives. > I'd assume they had at least different magnetic properties, if not > minor mechanical differences, too. AFAIK apart from that notch, they are mechanically the same -- same positieond of spools, capstan holes, head access hole, etc. Same design of spool/hub. Same position of the write-protect hole. I don't think there were any mirros for optical sensorts in the data cassetes either, but they may well have detected the clear leader by reflecitons off the cassette shell, so only light-coloured cassettes would work. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 2 13:36:38 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2010 19:36:38 +0100 (BST) Subject: retr0brite not so right? In-Reply-To: <4C56E2BF.1080002@philpem.me.uk> from "Philip Pemberton" at Aug 2, 10 04:22:39 pm Message-ID: > > On 01/08/10 19:15, Tony Duell wrote: > (re: Apple 1) > > [1] OK, if somebody gave me one, I would accept it with thanks. And I > > would look after it. But if I won the lottery or something (difficult, > > since I don't enter :-)), I would not spend the money on an Apple 1. > > There are many other classic computers I would find more interesting. > > Same here. If I won the lottery I'd be building up a half-decent home > machine shop... Even if I had to spend it on classic computers, the Apple 1 would not be high up the list :-). Certain HP models (not particularly rare [1]) would be... [1] Amazingly, for all I have a fair number of HP machines, I have never managed to obtain an HP1000 of any version, for ecample... > My interest is in the old single-board and embedded machines. I'm not > too interested in the Apple I, but I do find (for example) the Acorn Err, the Apple 1 is a single-board machine :-) > Exceptions would be the Apple II and Acorn BBC Micro. The AII on the > grounds that I think it's neat how the parts count was pushed so low > (especially on things like the disc controller) and the Acorn because it > was pretty much the first "real" computer I used... Hmm, we will ahve to agree to disagree, I think. I regard the Apple ][ as one of the worst designs ever because it's such a minimal parts count (IMHO a few more chips would ahve made it a lot better). But I feel the BBC Micro is one of the best (if not _the_ best) 8 bitters. A very elegant design... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 2 13:40:05 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2010 19:40:05 +0100 (BST) Subject: Pronouncing acronyms (was Re: DEC acronyms) In-Reply-To: <20100802163856.195860ysz2p76k4c@aurigae.demon.co.uk> from "afra@aurigae.demon.co.uk" at Aug 2, 10 04:38:56 pm Message-ID: > > Quoting Rod Smallwood : > > > 3. RSX as Our sex > > Heheh the 6809 actually had a SEX mnemonic SignEXtend :) As every UK hacker knew in the 1980s, 'you can have SEX with a Dragon, but not with an Apple' (the Dragon has a 6809 CPU, the Apple ][ hjas a 6502, of course). I assume everyone here knows the story that the PDP11 sign extended instruction was called SXT becuase the suits objected to it being called SEX. And the possibly aporcryphal extension that the hackers got their own back in the naming of the Failed UniBus Address Register in the VAX11/780 -- only after manuals had been printed and shipped did the suits realise what FUBAR stood for :-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 2 13:44:39 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2010 19:44:39 +0100 (BST) Subject: Pronouncing acronyms (was Re: DEC acronyms) In-Reply-To: from "Rod Smallwood" at Sep 2, 10 07:45:34 am Message-ID: > > > The ones I do remember=20 > > 1. BA11-ES always referred to as a Balls box That would have been confusing to me. Balls Brothers were a company well-known for embedded video monitors in the 1970s/1980s, including at leat one version of the VT100 video board. So a 'Balls Box' to me would be a VT100 (or something) with a Balls Brothers video board. > > 2. RSTS as Ristus It was normally 'rustus' among the people I knoew who used it... Getting away from DEC for a moment... I have been known to pronouch 'CRT' as 'Crut'. But oddly, I almost never pronouce LED as 'led'. It's always 'Ell Eee Dee' (or 'Lima Echo Delta' if I am being more silly than normal :-)) -tony From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Aug 2 14:27:11 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2010 15:27:11 -0400 Subject: Pronouncing acronyms (was Re: DEC acronyms) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C571C0F.40903@neurotica.com> On 8/2/10 2:44 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > It was normally 'rustus' among the people I knoew who used it... > > Getting away from DEC for a moment... > > I have been known to pronouch 'CRT' as 'Crut'. > > But oddly, I almost never pronouce LED as 'led'. It's always 'Ell Eee > Dee' (or 'Lima Echo Delta' if I am being more silly than normal :-)) "Ristiss", "See Are Tee", and "Ell Eee Dee" for me. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Aug 2 14:28:27 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2010 12:28:27 -0700 Subject: Apple/Mac floppy questions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C571C5B.1080307@brouhaha.com> Tony wrote: >> One thing to watch for are the little 20-way Apple ribbon cables that >> link these drives to the mainboard. They are not what they seem -- in >> particlar 1 ro 2 wries are not wires at all, but solid plastic, so those >> pins of the connectors are not linked. If they are, then all sorts of odd >> things happen (Eject motor runs continuously???) >> >> I beelive there are at least 2 versions of the calbe (for double sided >> and high density drives>?, with different coloured pin 1 tracers. A Mac >> enthusiast may know more. >> Jeff wrote: > I don't remember all the details. I do remember that there is a cable > with a yellow stripe on pin 1 and another version of the cable with a red > stripe. If you install the wrong cable (can't remember whether it's red > for yellow or yellow for red) the eject motor does indeed run > continuously. > > It doesn't seem to damage the drive; I never let it run more than a few > seconds. So it's easy enough to identify and correct. > There's a dedicated eject signal on the 800K and FDHD that will cause the drive to eject. IIRC it is active low, and replaced a ground. The internal drive connectors in the Mac are not wired for that eject signal. The dedicated eject signal is probably used in the external drive enclosure for the eject button. Software can tell the drive to disable the manual eject and poll the button instead. Or something like that. Eric From arcarlini at iee.org Mon Aug 2 14:39:42 2010 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2010 20:39:42 +0100 Subject: Pronouncing acronyms (was Re: DEC acronyms) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <67AFF95DD501490DA767222AD0CC928D@ANTONIOPC> Tony Duell [ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk] wrote: > And the possibly aporcryphal extension that the hackers > got their > own back in the naming of the Failed UniBus Address Register in the > VAX11/780 -- only after manuals had been printed and shipped did the > suits realise what FUBAR stood for :-) I have no personal knowledge, but I find it incredibly difficult to believe that FUBAR was anything other than deliberate :-) Was it OS/8 (or a derivative) that started out as the First User Customizable Keyboard monitor? The reply to the obvious objection was Second User ... (I don't recall what it actually shipped as). I assume that P/OS was just an accident (and coined after the fact). Antonio From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 2 14:49:18 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2010 20:49:18 +0100 (BST) Subject: Apple/Mac floppy questions In-Reply-To: <4C571C5B.1080307@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at Aug 2, 10 12:28:27 pm Message-ID: > > Tony wrote: > >> One thing to watch for are the little 20-way Apple ribbon cables that > >> link these drives to the mainboard. They are not what they seem -- in > >> particlar 1 ro 2 wries are not wires at all, but solid plastic, so those > >> pins of the connectors are not linked. If they are, then all sorts of odd > >> things happen (Eject motor runs continuously???) > >> > >> I beelive there are at least 2 versions of the calbe (for double sided > >> and high density drives>?, with different coloured pin 1 tracers. A Mac > >> enthusiast may know more. > >> > Jeff wrote: > > I don't remember all the details. I do remember that there is a cable > > with a yellow stripe on pin 1 and another version of the cable with a red > > stripe. If you install the wrong cable (can't remember whether it's red > > for yellow or yellow for red) the eject motor does indeed run > > continuously. > > > > It doesn't seem to damage the drive; I never let it run more than a few > > seconds. So it's easy enough to identify and correct. > > > There's a dedicated eject signal on the 800K and FDHD that will cause > the drive to eject. IIRC it is active low, and replaced a ground. The I thought it was actually a -5V line on the computer end of the cable, but the schematics are not to hand... > internal drive connectors in the Mac are not wired for that eject signal. > > The dedicated eject signal is probably used in the external drive > enclosure for the eject button. Software can tell the drive to disable > the manual eject and poll the button instead. Or something like that. IRIC, this eject pin is wired directly to the eject motor driver circuit, it doesn't go via any logic (e.g. the digital ASIC) so I don't see how software could do this unless there was more external logic involved (which is entirely possible, of course). I thought the cables were different between the 800K and FDHD drives, but I might well be wrong. I don't have much experience with Macs... -tony From RichA at vulcan.com Mon Aug 2 14:46:28 2010 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2010 12:46:28 -0700 Subject: drifting from retrobrite - can I make it a museum discussion In-Reply-To: References: , <4C531EEC.5080908@jwsss.com> Message-ID: From: Randy Dawson Sent: Saturday, July 31, 2010 12:59 AM > I am interested in any ideas, and models for technology museums. > Currently, I am working with some guys on a project we call VintageTek, a > museum of Tektronix, the technology, innovations and personalities that, > without glorification on my part, created, or enabled modern electronics. > We are aware of Boston Computer Museum and others, and its easy to make > that a destination to see the evolution of computing in general across > several companies. Were not sure that a museum dedicated to one company, > Tek, and oscilloscopes (along with its original engineering workstations > and computer graphics systems) will be a success on its own. > Any curators out there care to throw in a few thoughts and stories, of how > you made a go of it? The American Association of Museums has a great deal of material available for free (as well as a huge lot more for paying members, but what you're looking for is in the free stuff). The specific page to start with is http://www.aam-us.org/aboutmuseums/ I encourage you to look over the documents there to get an idea of what you need to do to get started. I also encourage you to look into the possibility of a certificate program or the like in museum studies in your area. (The University of Washington has one, for example, which is roughly half the course work for the M. A. program.) It's not necessary for everyone involved in the project to go through such a program, but it's very helpful if at least one person does. Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.PDPplanet.org/ http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 2 14:55:35 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2010 20:55:35 +0100 (BST) Subject: Pronouncing acronyms (was Re: DEC acronyms) In-Reply-To: <4C571C0F.40903@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Aug 2, 10 03:27:11 pm Message-ID: > > I have been known to pronouch 'CRT' as 'Crut'. > > > > But oddly, I almost never pronouce LED as 'led'. It's always 'Ell Eee > > Dee' (or 'Lima Echo Delta' if I am being more silly than normal :-)) > > "Ristiss", "See Are Tee", and "Ell Eee Dee" for me. Oh, it's normally 'C - R - T' (3 separate letter names) round here too. But 'Crut' is one way to pronounce it. I don't normally do that, but... Analogure to Digital Converter(ADC) is always 'Aye Dee Cee', but digital to analogue converter (DAC) is pronounced as a word -- 'Dack'. Other ones (at least as I pronounce them)... DACK (Data Acknowledge/DMA Acknowledge) is normally pronounced as a word.. DTACK (Data Transfer Acknoledge -- 6800 bus signal) is 'Dee-Tack' The column address signal CAS/ on a DRAM is always 'CAS-bar' :-) Serial input and Serial out are pronounced as words -- Sin and Sout. Doubtles I will think of many more... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 2 14:58:38 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2010 20:58:38 +0100 (BST) Subject: Pronouncing acronyms (was Re: DEC acronyms) In-Reply-To: <67AFF95DD501490DA767222AD0CC928D@ANTONIOPC> from "arcarlini@iee.org" at Aug 2, 10 08:39:42 pm Message-ID: > > Tony Duell [ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk] wrote: > > And the possibly aporcryphal extension that the hackers > > got their > > own back in the naming of the Failed UniBus Address Register in the > > VAX11/780 -- only after manuals had been printed and shipped did the > > suits realise what FUBAR stood for :-) > > I have no personal knowledge, but I find it incredibly difficult to > believe that FUBAR was anything other than deliberate :-) I am absolutley sure it was deliberate, it is far too much of a conincidence. The apocryphal part is whether the suits realised what was going on before it was too late, and wheter it was a hacker's reaction to the SXT/SEX PDP11 instruction/ > > Was it OS/8 (or a derivative) that started out as the > First User Customizable Keyboard monitor? The reply to the > obvious objection was Second User ... (I don't recall what > it actually shipped as). Hmm... :-) > > I assume that P/OS was just an accident (and coined after the fact). Well, there was already POS (PERQ OS or Pascal OS) which not suprisingly ran on PERQs and was a farily nice single-user OS for said machine. I have never heard of anyone calling that piece-of-s***. But that is an apporpirate name for the ruined RSX that runs on the Pro... -tony From tshoppa at wmata.com Mon Aug 2 15:05:52 2010 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim) Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2010 16:05:52 -0400 Subject: Mispronouncing acronyms Message-ID: My favorite was an undergraduate computing help desk that Always managed to insist that the "vi" editor was pronounced "six". More than once I saw PDP-11 become PDP-II become PDP-2. And from the 70's onward I often felt a twinge of pity whenever I saw References to the ASC2 character set. Tim. From dmabry at mich.com Mon Aug 2 15:06:12 2010 From: dmabry at mich.com (Dave Mabry) Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2010 16:06:12 -0400 Subject: intel MSD-720 In-Reply-To: <4C56FCF7.4020907@att.net> References: <4C56FCF7.4020907@att.net> Message-ID: <4C572534.5070701@mich.com> Intel MDS-720 was, as I recall, the external package that contained 2 8" single-sided, double-density floppy drives. I think it also included the two-board set of controller boards that went into the Intel MDS (800 or Series II) along with ISIS-II operating system. How about a link to the CL posting? steve shumaker said the following on 8/2/2010 1:14 PM: > can anyone shed some light on what this might be: > > Floppy Disk Drives (internal) 8" dual drive console, Intel MSD-720 > > item is listed in a large Craigs List ad that's been up essentially > unchanged for months > attempts to get more info out of the seller have been less than > successful. > > the closest thing I can find is a reference to an "option 720" on > classiccomp's link to Joe's Intel MDS page. MDS 200 series > apparently had something called "option 720" but there's little info > about it other than it appears to be an external floppy unit. > > thoughts welcome.... > > > Steve > > From shumaker at att.net Mon Aug 2 15:29:19 2010 From: shumaker at att.net (steve shumaker) Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2010 16:29:19 -0400 Subject: intel MSD-720 In-Reply-To: <4C572534.5070701@mich.com> References: <4C56FCF7.4020907@att.net> <4C572534.5070701@mich.com> Message-ID: <4C572A9F.30108@att.net> Here's the link: http://washingtondc.craigslist.org/nva/sys/1867720633.html item is near the bottom of a long list. be warned: I've attempted to get additional info from the seller on several of the vintage items listed with little success. Steve On 8/2/2010 4:06 PM, Dave Mabry wrote: > Intel MDS-720 was, as I recall, the external package that contained 2 > 8" single-sided, double-density floppy drives. I think it also > included the two-board set of controller boards that went into the > Intel MDS (800 or Series II) along with ISIS-II operating system. > > How about a link to the CL posting? > > > steve shumaker said the following on 8/2/2010 1:14 PM: >> can anyone shed some light on what this might be: >> >> Floppy Disk Drives (internal) 8" dual drive console, Intel MSD-720 >> >> item is listed in a large Craigs List ad that's been up essentially >> unchanged for months >> attempts to get more info out of the seller have been less than >> successful. >> >> the closest thing I can find is a reference to an "option 720" on >> classiccomp's link to Joe's Intel MDS page. MDS 200 series >> apparently had something called "option 720" but there's little info >> about it other than it appears to be an external floppy unit. >> >> thoughts welcome.... >> >> >> Steve >> >> > > From shumaker at att.net Mon Aug 2 15:31:16 2010 From: shumaker at att.net (steve shumaker) Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2010 16:31:16 -0400 Subject: intel MSD-720 In-Reply-To: <4C572534.5070701@mich.com> References: <4C56FCF7.4020907@att.net> <4C572534.5070701@mich.com> Message-ID: <4C572B14.4060008@att.net> forgot to mention... in emails, he insists that it is an "MSD"-720 steve On 8/2/2010 4:06 PM, Dave Mabry wrote: > Intel MDS-720 was, as I recall, the external package that contained 2 > 8" single-sided, double-density floppy drives. I think it also > included the two-board set of controller boards that went into the > Intel MDS (800 or Series II) along with ISIS-II operating system. > > How about a link to the CL posting? > > > steve shumaker said the following on 8/2/2010 1:14 PM: >> can anyone shed some light on what this might be: >> >> Floppy Disk Drives (internal) 8" dual drive console, Intel MSD-720 >> >> item is listed in a large Craigs List ad that's been up essentially >> unchanged for months >> attempts to get more info out of the seller have been less than >> successful. >> >> the closest thing I can find is a reference to an "option 720" on >> classiccomp's link to Joe's Intel MDS page. MDS 200 series >> apparently had something called "option 720" but there's little info >> about it other than it appears to be an external floppy unit. >> >> thoughts welcome.... >> >> >> Steve >> >> > > From cclist at sydex.com Mon Aug 2 15:35:06 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2010 13:35:06 -0700 Subject: Mispronouncing acronyms In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C56C98A.29425.F54A6F@cclist.sydex.com> Does no one remember Veetock? (VTOC) --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Mon Aug 2 15:40:18 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2010 13:40:18 -0700 Subject: intel MSD-720 In-Reply-To: <4C572534.5070701@mich.com> References: <4C56FCF7.4020907@att.net>, <4C572534.5070701@mich.com> Message-ID: <4C56CAC2.3666.FA0B1B@cclist.sydex.com> There's one on Ebay, if you want to look at the purty pitchers... 190424652214 Unusual because the drives are horizontal side-by-side; I've only used the vertical side-by-side boxes. --Chuck From drb at msu.edu Mon Aug 2 15:46:19 2010 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2010 16:46:19 -0400 Subject: Mispronouncing acronyms In-Reply-To: (Your message of Mon, 02 Aug 2010 16:05:52 EDT.) References: Message-ID: <20100802204619.C48C6A5826C@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > And from the 70's onward I often felt a twinge of pity whenever I saw > References to the ASC2 character set. Or worse yet, going full circle, "asskey two". Then again, I tend to want to shoot people who pronounce URL "earl". Ran across somebody the other day who was surprised that DEC is often pronounced "deck". #include De From IanK at vulcan.com Mon Aug 2 15:49:32 2010 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2010 13:49:32 -0700 Subject: Mispronouncing acronyms In-Reply-To: <4C56C98A.29425.F54A6F@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4C56C98A.29425.F54A6F@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: Or "eye-sam" (ISAM) -- Ian > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chuck Guzis > Sent: Monday, August 02, 2010 1:35 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Mispronouncing acronyms > > Does no one remember Veetock? (VTOC) > > --Chuck > > > From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Aug 2 15:54:32 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2010 13:54:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Pronouncing acronyms (was Re: DEC acronyms) In-Reply-To: <20100802163856.195860ysz2p76k4c@aurigae.demon.co.uk> References: <20100802163856.195860ysz2p76k4c@aurigae.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <20100802135312.I35000@shell.lmi.net> Or SQL. "Sequel" is pretentious and unnecessarily adds an extra syllable. It is more obviously "Squeal" or "Sqawl" From IanK at vulcan.com Mon Aug 2 16:01:02 2010 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2010 14:01:02 -0700 Subject: Pronouncing acronyms (was Re: DEC acronyms) In-Reply-To: <20100802135312.I35000@shell.lmi.net> References: <20100802163856.195860ysz2p76k4c@aurigae.demon.co.uk> <20100802135312.I35000@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: I once met a very bright young woman who told me she was a "squeal" programmer. A dirty mind is a joy forever. -- Ian PS: I hear both "sequel" and "ess-cue-ell" about evenly. > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Fred Cisin > Sent: Monday, August 02, 2010 1:55 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: RE: Pronouncing acronyms (was Re: DEC acronyms) > > Or SQL. > "Sequel" is pretentious and unnecessarily adds an extra syllable. > It is more obviously "Squeal" or "Sqawl" > > From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Aug 2 16:27:21 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2010 14:27:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Pronouncing acronyms (was Re: DEC acronyms) In-Reply-To: References: <20100802163856.195860ysz2p76k4c@aurigae.demon.co.uk> <20100802135312.I35000@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20100802142540.G35000@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 2 Aug 2010, Ian King wrote: > I once met a very bright young woman who told me she was a "squeal" > programmer. Sounds well worth getting to know. Does she have a sister? > A dirty mind is a joy forever. -- Ian > PS: I hear both "sequel" and "ess-cue-ell" about evenly. . . . but rarely hear it pronounced "System Query Language", or whatever From cclist at sydex.com Mon Aug 2 16:33:20 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2010 14:33:20 -0700 Subject: Mispronouncing acronyms In-Reply-To: <20100802204619.C48C6A5826C@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> References: , <20100802204619.C48C6A5826C@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: <4C56D730.24720.12A9919@cclist.sydex.com> On 2 Aug 2010 at 16:46, Dennis Boone wrote: > Ran across somebody the other day who was surprised that DEC is often > pronounced "deck". Was once informed by a friend who worked as a field engineer for the Maynard Mafia that "Deck" was officially frowned upon; one should apparently always say "Digital" when in the presence of customers. I've been surprised at abbreviations that resisted the temptation to acronym-ize. "RBR" and "RBT" were always pronouced as the letters; I would have imagined that "rubber" and "robot" would have been used, but it never came to pass, to the best of my knowledge. --Chuck From richardlynch4 at tx.rr.com Sun Aug 1 11:41:49 2010 From: richardlynch4 at tx.rr.com (Richard Lynch) Date: Sun, 01 Aug 2010 11:41:49 -0500 Subject: Free empty TI 960B Message-ID: If anyone is interested in an empty TI 960B chassis for the cost of shipping, please contact me offlist. Includes only the frame, motherboard and power supply - no front panel or boards. Even so, it's still big and heavy so local pickup (near Dallas Texas) will save some money. Richard Lynch From bqt at softjar.se Sun Aug 1 12:31:46 2010 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Sun, 01 Aug 2010 19:31:46 +0200 Subject: IRQs and such (was Re: Serial interfaces) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C55AF82.5090103@softjar.se> Glen Slick wrote: > If you have a KA655 VAX CPU, or the SIMH version, you can run the > configure utility to calculate what the CSR address and vector > assignments should be for the set of devices you have. Good tip. Another is that SYSGEN under VMS can also do this. Check the HELP if you are curious. Yet another is FLOAT.CMD, which comes with the DECnet distribution of RSX. And I also have a program written in C from I don't remember where, which allows you to figure out the same information. > For example: > > VAX simulator V3.8-1 > sim> load -r ka655x.bin > sim> boot cpu > KA655-B V5.3, VMB 2.7 > Performing normal system tests. > 40..39..38..37..36..35..34..33..32..31..30..29..28..27..26..25.. > 24..23..22..21..20..19..18..17..16..15..14..13..12..11..10..09.. > 08..07..06..05..04..03.. > Tests completed. >>>> >>>configure > Enter device configuration, HELP, or EXIT > Device,Number? help > Devices: > LPV11 KXJ11 DLV11J DZQ11 DZV11 DFA01 > RLV12 TSV05 RXV21 DRV11W DRV11B DPV11 > DMV11 DELQA DEQNA DESQA RQDX3 KDA50 > RRD50 RQC25 KFQSA-DISK TQK50 TQK70 TU81E > RV20 KFQSA-TAPE KMV11 IEQ11 DHQ11 DHV11 > CXA16 CXB16 CXY08 VCB01 QVSS LNV11 > LNV21 QPSS DSV11 ADV11C AAV11C AXV11C > KWV11C ADV11D AAV11D VCB02 QDSS DRV11J > DRQ3B VSV21 IBQ01 IDV11A IDV11B IDV11C > IDV11D IAV11A IAV11B MIRA ADQ32 DTC04 > DESNA IGQ11 > Numbers: > 1 to 255, default is 1 > Device,Number? rqdx3,2 > Device,Number? delqa,1 > Device,Number? tqk50,1 > Device,Number? dhq11,1 > Device,Number? exit > > Address/Vector Assignments > -774440/120 DELQA > -772150/154 RQDX3 > -760334/300 RQDX3 > -774500/260 TQK50 > -760500/310 DHQ11 >>>> >>> And for the curious of mind, the same from FLOAT.CMD: . at du:[200,200]float Determine the floating CSR addresses for your UNIBUS or Q-BUS machine. Type in the number (0 to 16) of devices for each device on the system ( = 0). After you have typed in the number for the device you are interested in, type to avoid having to go through the rest of the list. Q-BUS machine? y Number of DUV11s on system: Number of DZV11s on system: Number of VMV21s on system: Number of VMV31s on system: Number of RLV11s on system: Number of RXV11s on system: Number of DPV11s on system: Number of DMV11s on system: Number of RQDX1s on system: 2 Number of KMV11s on system: Number of DHV11s on system: 1 RQDX1 172150 (Fixed CSR) RQDX1 160334 DHV11 160500 (It's obviously missing the DELQA and TQK50) And from SYSGEN.C: .run sysgen Type device names one per line, optionally followed by a comma and a repeat count. Finish with EOF. rqdx3,2 delqa tqk50 dhq11 sysgen: DHQ11: unrecognized device name; ignored dhv11 Table of standard DEC assignments for configuration: DEVICE CSR VECTOR ------------------------- RQDX3 772150 0154 RQDX3 760334* 0300* DELQA 774440 0120 TQK50 774500 0260 DHV11 760500* 0310* CSRs and vectors marked '*' are in floating space. Johnny From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sun Aug 1 18:54:27 2010 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2010 16:54:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: scammed an HP 98788A b & w monitor Message-ID: <677217.49547.qm@web65503.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> not totally sure of it's overall health, but it kind of works thus far. apparently was used on an HP-UX w/s @ AT & T (so says the sticker). an unusual bugger. Unique amongst my jumbo monitors. Now only need the HP-UX station to go along w/it... From richardlynch4 at tx.rr.com Mon Aug 2 07:41:31 2010 From: richardlynch4 at tx.rr.com (Richard Lynch) Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2010 07:41:31 -0500 Subject: Free empty TI 960B In-Reply-To: Message-ID: If anyone is interested in an empty TI 960B chassis for the cost of shipping, please contact me offlist. Includes only the frame, motherboard and power supply - no front panel or boards. Even so, it's still big and heavy so local pickup (near Dallas Texas) will save some money. Richard Lynch From hachti at hachti.de Mon Aug 2 16:52:26 2010 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2010 23:52:26 +0200 Subject: DG 800/1200 questions In-Reply-To: <4C55AEEB.6080404@bitsavers.org> References: <42E490EB6EDD4A69A1AC3A8C992D566E@OSA.local> <4C55AEEB.6080404@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4C573E1A.30509@hachti.de> Hi, On 01.08.2010 19:29, Al Kossow wrote: > On 8/1/10 9:24 AM, Jay West wrote: > >> Are we pretty sure that most software for these machines has been >> archived somewhere, or should I send these tapes off to Al et. al. to >> have them read >> > I've been referring all DG software offers to Bruce Ray at Wild Hare. I for example have a DG Nova 2 and nearly *NO* information about it. All I know is that the PSU and lights are OK. And that I can play around a bit. I have no reliable documentation. And no clue how to hook up a TTY or load software and all the like... That might sound a bit stupid... but... I got frustrated by the lack of *everything* for my Nova. All I have for the machine is plenty of core memory... Why is DG stuff not put onto Bitsavers? Regards, Philipp -- http://www.hachti.de From cclist at sydex.com Mon Aug 2 16:57:49 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2010 14:57:49 -0700 Subject: OT: The last roll of Kodachrome Message-ID: <4C56DCED.22569.1410601@cclist.sydex.com> Not even remotely computer-related, but I know that there are more than a couple of photography aficionados on the list: http://www.manufacturing.net/News/2010/08/Offbeat-News-What-s-On-The- Last-Roll-Of-Kodachrome/ Cheers, Chuck From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Aug 2 17:02:11 2010 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2010 15:02:11 -0700 Subject: FYI - Maryland Computer Museum article In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C574063.3070401@bitsavers.org> http://weblogs.baltimoresun.com/news/technology/2010/08/marylands_computer_history_mus.html From curt at atarimuseum.com Mon Aug 2 17:10:33 2010 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2010 18:10:33 -0400 Subject: S100 omninet driver In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C574259.4010809@atarimuseum.com> Haven't seen any S-100 Omni-net controllers, but I have a pair of regular S-100 Corvus HD controllers. Steven Hirsch wrote: > On Wed, 21 Jul 2010, David Griffith wrote: > >> >> I seem to recall some talk about omninet. I found a disk labeled >> "S100 Omninet drivers for CP/M 2.2". > > That would be nice to have, if you wouldn't mind mailing me an image. > > Several times I've come close to nailing an S100 Omninet controller, > but the owners invariably disappear and/or stop responding to e-mail. > > > > > From glen.slick at gmail.com Mon Aug 2 17:20:45 2010 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2010 15:20:45 -0700 Subject: IRQs and such (was Re: Serial interfaces) In-Reply-To: <4C55AF82.5090103@softjar.se> References: <4C55AF82.5090103@softjar.se> Message-ID: On Sun, Aug 1, 2010 at 10:31 AM, Johnny Billquist wrote: > > Yet another is FLOAT.CMD, which comes with the DECnet distribution of RSX. > You can also ".R FLOAT" in XXDP 2.5. That gets tedious as you have to run through the whole list of devices when you probably only have non-zero numbers of a few of them. -Glen From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Aug 2 17:21:43 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2010 15:21:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Pronouncing acronyms (was Re: DEC acronyms) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20100802152019.M35000@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 2 Aug 2010, Tony Duell wrote: > Serial input and Serial out are pronounced as words -- Sin and Sout. > Doubtles I will think of many more... At one point, I seriously considered changing the spelling of my name to "SysIn", just so that people that I worked with would pronounce it correctly. From evan at snarc.net Mon Aug 2 17:24:44 2010 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2010 18:24:44 -0400 Subject: FYI - Maryland Computer Museum article In-Reply-To: <4C574063.3070401@bitsavers.org> References: <4C574063.3070401@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4C5745AC.9080806@snarc.net> > http://weblogs.baltimoresun.com/news/technology/2010/08/marylands_computer_history_mus.html Here we go again .... Bob's collection is impressive. But that's all it is: a collection, owned by one person, located inside a private office. From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Aug 2 17:25:24 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2010 18:25:24 -0400 Subject: OT: The last roll of Kodachrome In-Reply-To: <4C56DCED.22569.1410601@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4C56DCED.22569.1410601@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > Not even remotely computer-related, but I know that there are more > than a couple of photography aficionados on the list: Jay is just back from a lengthy retreat, and one of the first things he gets to see is a blatant kick-off to a photography thread. Smooth...real smooth... -- Will From silent700 at gmail.com Mon Aug 2 17:28:14 2010 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2010 17:28:14 -0500 Subject: Mispronouncing acronyms In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Aug 2, 2010 at 3:05 PM, Shoppa, Tim wrote: > My favorite was an undergraduate computing help desk that > Always managed to insist that the "vi" editor was pronounced "six". > > More than once I saw PDP-11 become PDP-II become PDP-2. Reminds me of the local newscast I saw that referred to N. Korean leader "Kim Jong the Second." -- j From silent700 at gmail.com Mon Aug 2 17:29:18 2010 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2010 17:29:18 -0500 Subject: Mispronouncing acronyms In-Reply-To: <20100802204619.C48C6A5826C@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> References: <20100802204619.C48C6A5826C@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, Aug 2, 2010 at 3:46 PM, Dennis Boone wrote: > Ran across somebody the other day who was surprised that DEC is often > pronounced "deck". DEC is always "deck." NEC is *never* "neck." It's just the Way it Is. From curt at atarimuseum.com Mon Aug 2 17:32:19 2010 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2010 18:32:19 -0400 Subject: FYI - Maryland Computer Museum article In-Reply-To: <4C5745AC.9080806@snarc.net> References: <4C574063.3070401@bitsavers.org> <4C5745AC.9080806@snarc.net> Message-ID: <4C574773.2070101@atarimuseum.com> Not all of us have a former Naval Communications Research Base to setup our stuff in ;-) Evan Koblentz wrote: > >> http://weblogs.baltimoresun.com/news/technology/2010/08/marylands_computer_history_mus.html >> > > Here we go again .... > > Bob's collection is impressive. But that's all it is: a collection, > owned by one person, located inside a private office. > From silent700 at gmail.com Mon Aug 2 17:32:45 2010 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2010 17:32:45 -0500 Subject: Mispronouncing acronyms In-Reply-To: <4C56C98A.29425.F54A6F@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4C56C98A.29425.F54A6F@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: Surely covered on this list before, but I will re-open the box: SQL. I say "ess kyu ell." I rarely hear "sickle," although that makes some sense. I *always* hear "sequel," which requires some more imagination. It's only a hunch, but I suspect this originated from the dark halls of Redmond. -- jht From halarewich at gmail.com Mon Aug 2 17:36:43 2010 From: halarewich at gmail.com (Chris Halarewich) Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2010 15:36:43 -0700 Subject: tek and other scopes avail Message-ID: hello all for all the oscilloscope lovers out there this stuff is avail from bc govt surplus website it is not mine http://www.bcauction.ca/open.dll/welcome click brouse auctions then scientific / testing equip individ auctions are as follows tek d541 https://www.bcauction.ca/open.dll/showDisplayDocument?sessionID=21512378&disID=6098321&docType=Tender&dis_version_nos=0&doc_search_by=Tend&docTypeQual=TN one lot of 3 bk presision 2120a https://www.bcauction.ca/open.dll/showDisplayDocument?sessionID=21512378&disID=6097898&docType=Tender&dis_version_nos=0&doc_search_by=Tend&docTypeQual=TN 1 spectrum anyliser hp model 8558b https://www.bcauction.ca/open.dll/showDisplayDocument?sessionID=21512378&disID=6098346&docType=Tender&dis_version_nos=0&doc_search_by=Tend&docTypeQual=TN lot of 2 kikusui model 5020 https://www.bcauction.ca/open.dll/showDisplayDocument?sessionID=21512378&disID=6098318&docType=Tender&dis_version_nos=0&doc_search_by=Tend&docTypeQual=TN one lot of 6 hitachi model v-212 https://www.bcauction.ca/open.dll/showDisplayDocument?sessionID=21512378&disID=6097894&docType=Tender&dis_version_nos=0&doc_search_by=Tend&docTypeQual=TN this is a bc govt surplus website these are not mine if u bid on the items they can ither be shipped or picked up- location surrey bc canada Chris From evan at snarc.net Mon Aug 2 17:45:26 2010 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2010 18:45:26 -0400 Subject: FYI - Maryland Computer Museum article In-Reply-To: <4C574773.2070101@atarimuseum.com> References: <4C574063.3070401@bitsavers.org> <4C5745AC.9080806@snarc.net> <4C574773.2070101@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <4C574A86.1020608@snarc.net> I know, I just hate when people mis-label stuff. Bob's private collection is not a "museum". I would feel this way regardless of my own efforts. --------------------------------------------- > Not all of us have a former Naval Communications Research Base to > setup our stuff in ;-) > > > > > Evan Koblentz wrote: >> >>> http://weblogs.baltimoresun.com/news/technology/2010/08/marylands_computer_history_mus.html >>> >> >> Here we go again .... >> >> Bob's collection is impressive. But that's all it is: a collection, >> owned by one person, located inside a private office. >> > From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Mon Aug 2 14:07:37 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2010 20:07:37 +0100 Subject: OT? Tek 4014 emulator (tying Xterm to ttyS0) Message-ID: <4C571779.2030508@philpem.me.uk> Hi guys, I'm building some hardware that spits out debug info on a regular basis, and I figured it'd be useful to have this data graphed on-screen. Making it keep track of the last "N" samples and draw them wouldn't be hard, except adding an LCD display is out of the question (takes up too many I/O pins). On the other hand, I have a perfectly good serial port which runs at a decent rate of speed (115200 baud), and Xterm can emulate a Tektronix 4014 vector terminal. Perfect... except I can't see an easy way to tie Xterm to a serial port instead of having it run an application. There's nothing in the manpage (admittedly I haven't read it all, just grepped it for a few obvious terms) and 'apropos' isn't finding anything useful. I've been told that tip(1) on BSD will do what I want, I just can't find anything similar on Linux... Thanks, -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From RichA at vulcan.com Mon Aug 2 18:03:59 2010 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2010 16:03:59 -0700 Subject: Mispronouncing acronyms In-Reply-To: References: <4C56C98A.29425.F54A6F@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: From: Jason T Sent: Monday, August 02, 2010 3:33 PM > Surely covered on this list before, but I will re-open the box: > SQL. > I say "ess kyu ell." I rarely hear "sickle," although that makes > some sense. I *always* hear "sequel," which requires some more > imagination. It's only a hunch, but I suspect this originated from > the dark halls of Redmond. I heard this from BIM mainframe programming types in the 1980s, so I'd say otherwise. Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.PDPplanet.org/ http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From legalize at xmission.com Mon Aug 2 18:07:32 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2010 17:07:32 -0600 Subject: OT? Tek 4014 emulator (tying Xterm to ttyS0) In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 02 Aug 2010 20:07:37 +0100. <4C571779.2030508@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: In article <4C571779.2030508 at philpem.me.uk>, Philip Pemberton writes: > On the other hand, I have a perfectly good serial port which runs at a > decent rate of speed (115200 baud), and Xterm can emulate a Tektronix > 4014 vector terminal. Perfect... except I can't see an easy way to tie > Xterm to a serial port instead of having it run an application. Have xterm run a shell and then just cat the contents of the serial port. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Mon Aug 2 18:10:39 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2010 17:10:39 -0600 Subject: retr0brite not so right? In-Reply-To: Your message of Sat, 31 Jul 2010 18:56:23 -0700. <4C54D447.8090003@jwsss.com> Message-ID: In article <4C54D447.8090003 at jwsss.com>, jim s writes: > One of a kind items without hope of finding parts run now > will have zero hope of > ever being carefully restored and run at any point in the future if you > run it now and burn it up. Just so its clear: I would never allow "one of a kind" items to be operated. For things like that, you create a replica/simulacrum experience. (Think: SAGE console.) The stuff I would let people touch are things like Tektronix 4105 terminals (of which I have 10 or so in working order) or limited interaction with tektronix storage tube terminals (of which I have several of each model) or Octane workstations (of which I have 19). "Hands on" can still be done with replicas for rare items. However, I find museums that are just piles of stuff behind glass to be really boring. Its like going to a zoo where all the animals are stuffed. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Mon Aug 2 18:13:15 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2010 17:13:15 -0600 Subject: Tek Fiche update In-Reply-To: Your message of Sat, 31 Jul 2010 16:32:13 +0100. <4C5441FD.4020206@axeside.co.uk> Message-ID: I would be interested in 411x service manuals. Program listings and newsletters are hard to come by as well, although I have a fairly complete set of 405x newsletters. ROM source code listings are most definately welcome if present; I don't think I've ever seen Tek ROM source code listings unless they were reverse engineered from burned ROM images. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From ploopster at gmail.com Mon Aug 2 18:20:15 2010 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2010 19:20:15 -0400 Subject: preserving computers (was: retr0brite not so right?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C5752AF.1050201@gmail.com> joe lobocki wrote: > so wait, how much vacuum would destroy something? I have a few things > sealed in Foodsaver bags, is this enough vaccum to do damage? I doubt it. Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Mon Aug 2 18:23:26 2010 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2010 19:23:26 -0400 Subject: Pronouncing acronyms (was Re: DEC acronyms) In-Reply-To: <20100802135312.I35000@shell.lmi.net> References: <20100802163856.195860ysz2p76k4c@aurigae.demon.co.uk> <20100802135312.I35000@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4C57536E.9050206@gmail.com> Fred Cisin wrote: > Or SQL. > "Sequel" is pretentious and unnecessarily adds an extra syllable. > It is more obviously "Squeal" or "Sqawl" Except the language was called SEQUEL before it was called SQL. Peace... Sridhar From rivie at ridgenet.net Mon Aug 2 18:26:44 2010 From: rivie at ridgenet.net (Roger Ivie) Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2010 16:26:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT? Tek 4014 emulator (tying Xterm to ttyS0) In-Reply-To: <4C571779.2030508@philpem.me.uk> References: <4C571779.2030508@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: On Mon, 2 Aug 2010, Philip Pemberton wrote: > On the other hand, I have a perfectly good serial port which runs at a decent > rate of speed (115200 baud), and Xterm can emulate a Tektronix 4014 vector > terminal. Perfect... except I can't see an easy way to tie Xterm to a serial > port instead of having it run an application. Kermit? http://kermit.columbia.edu/ -- roger ivie rivie at ridgenet.net From ploopster at gmail.com Mon Aug 2 18:26:44 2010 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2010 19:26:44 -0400 Subject: Mispronouncing acronyms In-Reply-To: References: <4C56C98A.29425.F54A6F@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4C575434.4020802@gmail.com> Jason T wrote: > Surely covered on this list before, but I will re-open the box: > > SQL. > > I say "ess kyu ell." I rarely hear "sickle," although that makes > some sense. I *always* hear "sequel," which requires some more > imagination. It's only a hunch, but I suspect this originated from > the dark halls of Redmond. Wrong. SQL was developed at IBM sometime in the early '70s for interacting with the System/R database, and was originally called SEQUEL. It was changed because of trademark reasons. Peace... Sridhar From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Mon Aug 2 18:27:27 2010 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2010 16:27:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Tek Fiche update In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <518253.99364.qm@web80502.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I have the service manuals for the 4114. I can get them to Al at bitsavers (assuming he has time!) if you want. Bob --- On Mon, 8/2/10, Richard wrote: > From: Richard > Subject: Re: Tek Fiche update > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Date: Monday, August 2, 2010, 4:13 PM > > I would be interested in 411x service manuals. > > Program listings and newsletters are hard to come by as > well, although > I have a fairly complete set of 405x newsletters. > > ROM source code listings are most definately welcome if > present; I > don't think I've ever seen Tek ROM source code listings > unless they > were reverse engineered from burned ROM images. > -- > "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft > available for download > > > ? ? ? Legalize Adulthood! > From als at thangorodrim.de Mon Aug 2 18:18:50 2010 From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber) Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2010 01:18:50 +0200 Subject: OT? Tek 4014 emulator (tying Xterm to ttyS0) In-Reply-To: <4C571779.2030508@philpem.me.uk> References: <4C571779.2030508@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <20100802231850.GA13409@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> On Mon, Aug 02, 2010 at 08:07:37PM +0100, Philip Pemberton wrote: > Hi guys, > > I'm building some hardware that spits out debug info on a regular > basis, and I figured it'd be useful to have this data graphed > on-screen. Making it keep track of the last "N" samples and draw > them wouldn't be hard, except adding an LCD display is out of the > question (takes up too many I/O pins). > > On the other hand, I have a perfectly good serial port which runs at > a decent rate of speed (115200 baud), and Xterm can emulate a > Tektronix 4014 vector terminal. Perfect... except I can't see an > easy way to tie Xterm to a serial port instead of having it run an > application. > > There's nothing in the manpage (admittedly I haven't read it all, > just grepped it for a few obvious terms) and 'apropos' isn't finding > anything useful. I've been told that tip(1) on BSD will do what I > want, I just can't find anything similar on Linux... Hmm, wouldn't running kermit (connected to the serial port) inside the xterm do the trick? Kind regards, Alex. -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison From trag at io.com Mon Aug 2 18:39:01 2010 From: trag at io.com (Jeff Walther) Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2010 18:39:01 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Apple/Mac floppy questions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2010 12:28:27 -0700 > From: Eric Smith > Tony wrote: >>> One thing to watch for are the little 20-way Apple ribbon cables that >>> link these drives to the mainboard. They are not what they seem -- in >>> particlar 1 ro 2 wries are not wires at all, but solid plastic, so >>> those >>> pins of the connectors are not linked. If they are, then all sorts of >>> odd >>> things happen (Eject motor runs continuously???) >>> >>> I beelive there are at least 2 versions of the calbe (for double sided >>> and high density drives>?, with different coloured pin 1 tracers. A Mac >>> enthusiast may know more. >>> > Jeff wrote: >> I don't remember all the details. I do remember that there is a cable >> with a yellow stripe on pin 1 and another version of the cable with a >> red stripe. If you install the wrong cable (can't remember whether >> it's red for yellow or yellow for red) the eject motor does indeed run >> continuously. >> >> It doesn't seem to damage the drive; I never let it run more than a few >> seconds. So it's easy enough to identify and correct. >> > There's a dedicated eject signal on the 800K and FDHD that will cause > the drive to eject. IIRC it is active low, and replaced a ground. The > internal drive connectors in the Mac are not wired for that eject signal. > > The dedicated eject signal is probably used in the external drive > enclosure for the eject button. Software can tell the drive to disable > the manual eject and poll the button instead. Or something like that. Hmmm. I may be remembering what happens when one tries to install an auto-inject floppy drive into a later model Mac which expects a manual inject drive. In which case it has nothing to do with the cable, although I have seen both red and yellow striped. Anyway, I know I was building a system out of bits and pieces and saw that behaviour from the floppy, but maybe it was auto-inject in later model Mac rather than wrong cable. I hadn't started keeping a lab notebook yet, at the time. I know I've built floppy cables for PCI PowerMacs and manual inject floppies using standard ribbon cable and crimp on IDCs (connectors, is that redundant with IDC?). Jeff Walther From silent700 at gmail.com Mon Aug 2 18:39:00 2010 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2010 18:39:00 -0500 Subject: Mispronouncing acronyms In-Reply-To: <4C575434.4020802@gmail.com> References: <4C56C98A.29425.F54A6F@cclist.sydex.com> <4C575434.4020802@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Aug 2, 2010 at 6:26 PM, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Wrong. ?SQL was developed at IBM sometime in the early '70s for interacting > with the System/R database, and was originally called SEQUEL. ?It was > changed because of trademark reasons. Ahhh...I knew I had heard that somewhere before. Probably on this list, and probably from you ;) j (It's still S.Q.L to me. There's no "u" after that "q.") From shoppa at trailing-edge.com Mon Aug 2 18:57:32 2010 From: shoppa at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2010 19:57:32 -0400 Subject: Mispronouncing acronyms Message-ID: <20100802235732.6FC981E025E@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> >> And from the 70's onward I often felt a twinge of pity whenever I saw >> References to the ASC2 character set. > Or worse yet, going full circle, "asskey two". Typical usage of that from the 70's onward: "You're still using asskey? We're using asskey-2. You should upgrade." Tim "Excessive force in the apprehension of abused acronyms has been approved" Shoppa. From gyorpb at gmail.com Mon Aug 2 19:03:08 2010 From: gyorpb at gmail.com (Joost van de Griek) Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2010 02:03:08 +0200 Subject: DG 800/1200 questions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 2 August 2010 20:32, Tony Duell wrote: > AFAIK apart from that notch, they are mechanically the same -- same > positieond of spools, capstan holes, head access hole, etc. Same design > of spool/hub. Same position of the write-protect hole. I don't think > there were any mirros for optical sensorts in the data cassetes either, > but they may well have detected the clear leader by reflecitons off the > cassette shell, so only light-coloured cassettes would work. Well, I've definitely seen black streamer cassettes (being offered). What I meant was, they might have been engineered to a higher standard than your average audio cassette. .tsooJ From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Mon Aug 2 19:16:53 2010 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2010 20:16:53 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Mystery print drum In-Reply-To: <4C568C6A.3061.6858E@cclist.sydex.com> References: , , <4C55E9CF.5920.3283BF5@cclist.sydex.com> <4C568C6A.3061.6858E@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 2 Aug 2010, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> On Sun, 1 Aug 2010, Mike Loewen wrote: >> >>> I have an unidentified drum from a line printer, 160 columns and >>> 64 >>> characters. The characters are the same on each horizontal line, >>> and the drum is one solid piece. Can anyone hazard a guess as to >>> which printer this might fit? There are no part numbers on it. > > An afterthought--it would be useful to list the non-alphanumeric > characters. They were far from standard in the old days and > sometimes you could tell a maker by the character set. The 64 character rows are laid out, thusly: 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 . 8 , 9 - E T A I S O N H R D L U C M F W Y P G 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 . 8 , 9 - V B K J $ * Q X Z # / + : = ' ( ) > < The numbers 0-9 are doubled, along with period (.), comma (,) and dash (-). Character spacing is 1/10 inch. I did some checking on HP drum printers (originally from Data Products and Data Printer Corp), and none of them went to 160 columns. Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From ploopster at gmail.com Mon Aug 2 19:31:41 2010 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2010 20:31:41 -0400 Subject: Mystery print drum In-Reply-To: References: , , <4C55E9CF.5920.3283BF5@cclist.sydex.com> <4C568C6A.3061.6858E@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4C57636D.1040709@gmail.com> Mike Loewen wrote: > The 64 character rows are laid out, thusly: > > 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 . 8 , 9 - E T A I S O N H R D L U C M F W Y P G > 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 . 8 , 9 - V B K J $ * Q X Z # / + : = ' ( ) > < > > The numbers 0-9 are doubled, along with period (.), comma (,) and dash > (-). Character spacing is 1/10 inch. I did some checking on HP drum > printers (originally from Data Products and Data Printer Corp), and none > of them went to 160 columns. I'm not familiar with the layout, but 160 columns makes me think Tally. Peace... Sridhar From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Aug 2 19:35:18 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2010 17:35:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Mystery print drum In-Reply-To: References: , , <4C55E9CF.5920.3283BF5@cclist.sydex.com> <4C568C6A.3061.6858E@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20100802173202.I35000@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 2 Aug 2010, Mike Loewen wrote: > The 64 character rows are laid out, thusly: > > 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 . 8 , 9 - E T A I S O N H R D L U C M F W Y P G > 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 . 8 , 9 - V B K J $ * Q X Z # / + : = ' ( ) > < No help at all for your question, but it interests me that 'S' has been put between 'I' and 'O', instead of the usual between 'N' and 'H'. The further down the list you go, the more variations there are from one frequency list to another, but that is an unusually high placement of 'S'. From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Mon Aug 2 19:40:09 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2010 01:40:09 +0100 Subject: OT? Tek 4014 emulator (tying Xterm to ttyS0) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C576569.3060101@philpem.me.uk> On 03/08/10 00:07, Richard wrote: > Have xterm run a shell and then just cat the contents of the serial > port. Tried that one! It doesn't let me send text back to the serial port (obviously, because 'cat' is one-way). -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From afra at aurigae.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 2 19:40:10 2010 From: afra at aurigae.demon.co.uk (Phill Harvey-Smith) Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2010 01:40:10 +0100 Subject: Mispronouncing acronyms In-Reply-To: <20100802235732.6FC981E025E@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> References: <20100802235732.6FC981E025E@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <4C57656A.8020506@aurigae.demon.co.uk> Tim Shoppa wrote: >>> And from the 70's onward I often felt a twinge of pity whenever I saw >>> References to the ASC2 character set. > >> Or worse yet, going full circle, "asskey two". > > Typical usage of that from the 70's onward: "You're still using asskey? > We're using asskey-2. You should upgrade." The other one I used to here about ASCII, was when a program crashed with a corrupted text screen it would be described as "my screen was full of ASCII characters" Well duuuhhh what do you think the normal ones are(1). Actually more often than not it was full of extended ASCII.... 1) Yeah I know there are other character sets like EBCDIC etc bu this was a mainly PC shop. Cheers. Phill. -- Phill Harvey-Smith, Programmer, Hardware hacker, and general eccentric ! "You can twist perceptions, but reality won't budge" -- Rush. From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Aug 2 19:44:09 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2010 17:44:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Mystery print drum In-Reply-To: <4C57636D.1040709@gmail.com> References: , , <4C55E9CF.5920.3283BF5@cclist.sydex.com> <4C568C6A.3061.6858E@cclist.sydex.com> <4C57636D.1040709@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20100802173934.V35000@shell.lmi.net> > > The 64 character rows are laid out, thusly: > > 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 . 8 , 9 - E T A I S O N H R D L U C M F W Y P G > > 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 . 8 , 9 - V B K J $ * Q X Z # / + : = ' ( ) > < On Mon, 2 Aug 2010, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > I'm not familiar with the layout, but 160 columns makes me think Tally. When using frequency of usage for probabilities in code breaking, the most common sequence (from most common letter to least) is often E T A I O N S H R D L U From silent700 at gmail.com Mon Aug 2 19:48:16 2010 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2010 19:48:16 -0500 Subject: Mispronouncing acronyms In-Reply-To: <4C57656A.8020506@aurigae.demon.co.uk> References: <20100802235732.6FC981E025E@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> <4C57656A.8020506@aurigae.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: On Mon, Aug 2, 2010 at 7:40 PM, Phill Harvey-Smith wrote: > corrupted text screen it would be described as "my screen was full of ASCII > characters" Well duuuhhh what do you think the normal ones are(1). Actually When my friends want to shop for "organic" vegetables, I ask them where the silicon-based ones are... -- jht From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Mon Aug 2 19:54:51 2010 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2010 17:54:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Mispronouncing acronyms In-Reply-To: References: <20100802235732.6FC981E025E@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> <4C57656A.8020506@aurigae.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: On Mon, 2 Aug 2010, Jason T wrote: > On Mon, Aug 2, 2010 at 7:40 PM, Phill Harvey-Smith > wrote: >> corrupted text screen it would be described as "my screen was full of ASCII >> characters" Well duuuhhh what do you think the normal ones are(1). Actually > > When my friends want to shop for "organic" vegetables, I ask them where > the silicon-based ones are... I know someone who had a habit of saying "cadmium" (as in nickel-cadmium batteries) as "kitty yum". So, whenever he asked to borrow rechargable batteries from me ("Hey, can I borrow some kitty-yums?"), I'd invariably give him a packet of cat treats. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Mon Aug 2 19:55:54 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2010 21:55:54 -0300 Subject: Mispronouncing acronyms References: <20100802204619.C48C6A5826C@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: <01f701cb32a7$555f5770$0600000a@portajara> > DEC is always "deck." NEC is *never* "neck." It's just the Way it Is. In Brazil, everyone says "neck" From fjgjr1 at aol.com Mon Aug 2 20:13:34 2010 From: fjgjr1 at aol.com (fjgjr1 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2010 21:13:34 -0400 Subject: OT: The last roll of Kodachrome In-Reply-To: <4C56DCED.22569.1410601@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4C56DCED.22569.1410601@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <8CD00C03A4B98A3-AD8-3F93@webmail-d075.sysops.aol.com> FYI Says link cannot be found ! Frank -----Original Message----- From: Chuck Guzis To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Sent: Mon, Aug 2, 2010 5:57 pm Subject: OT: The last roll of Kodachrome Not even remotely computer-related, but I know that there are more han a couple of photography aficionados on the list: http://www.manufacturing.net/News/2010/08/Offbeat-News-What-s-On-The- ast-Roll-Of-Kodachrome/ Cheers, huck From geneb at deltasoft.com Mon Aug 2 20:15:34 2010 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2010 18:15:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Mispronouncing acronyms In-Reply-To: References: <20100802204619.C48C6A5826C@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, 2 Aug 2010, Jason T wrote: > On Mon, Aug 2, 2010 at 3:46 PM, Dennis Boone wrote: >> Ran across somebody the other day who was surprised that DEC is often >> pronounced "deck". > > DEC is always "deck." NEC is *never* "neck." It's just the Way it Is. > Like Sysop is _NEVER_ Seye-sop. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Mon Aug 2 20:18:48 2010 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2010 21:18:48 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Mispronouncing acronyms In-Reply-To: References: <20100802204619.C48C6A5826C@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, 2 Aug 2010, Gene Buckle wrote: > Like Sysop is _NEVER_ Seye-sop. :) Jason Ward (RIP) always pronounced it that way, and I could never break him of the habit. Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Mon Aug 2 20:26:24 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2010 22:26:24 -0300 Subject: Mispronouncing acronyms References: <20100802235732.6FC981E025E@mini-me.trailing-edge.com><4C57656A.8020506@aurigae.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <027e01cb32ab$fb0423a0$0600000a@portajara> > When my friends want to shop for "organic" vegetables, I ask them > where the silicon-based ones are... Same in Brazil :) From curt at atarimuseum.com Mon Aug 2 20:42:23 2010 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2010 21:42:23 -0400 Subject: Mispronouncing acronyms In-Reply-To: <01f701cb32a7$555f5770$0600000a@portajara> References: <20100802204619.C48C6A5826C@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <01f701cb32a7$555f5770$0600000a@portajara> Message-ID: <4C5773FF.6090201@atarimuseum.com> Oh jeeez.... next thing, we're gonna starting have the Sysop argument: Its is pronounced 'sis' 'op' for System Operator or is it SY-SOP for SYstem Operator ;-) Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >> DEC is always "deck." NEC is *never* "neck." It's just the Way it Is. > > In Brazil, everyone says "neck" From silent700 at gmail.com Mon Aug 2 20:42:50 2010 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2010 20:42:50 -0500 Subject: Mispronouncing acronyms In-Reply-To: References: <20100802204619.C48C6A5826C@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, Aug 2, 2010 at 8:15 PM, Gene Buckle wrote: > Like Sysop is _NEVER_ Seye-sop. :) Does "Seye" rhyme with (American) "hay" or "eye" there? I admit I did come up saying Sysop (assonant with "eye-mop.") I know it's "Siss-op," I know. Sadly I haven't had cause to say it in years. -- jht From silent700 at gmail.com Mon Aug 2 20:45:59 2010 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2010 20:45:59 -0500 Subject: Mispronouncing acronyms In-Reply-To: <4C5773FF.6090201@atarimuseum.com> References: <20100802204619.C48C6A5826C@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <01f701cb32a7$555f5770$0600000a@portajara> <4C5773FF.6090201@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Aug 2, 2010 at 8:42 PM, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > Oh jeeez.... > > next thing, we're gonna starting have the Sysop argument: > Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: Nah, let's have the top-posting argument instead this time. ;) /me runs for the hills and takes cover... -- jht ^ could also argue the correct method(s) of indicating action and what time period and/or software they are derived from! From curt at atarimuseum.com Mon Aug 2 20:51:01 2010 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2010 21:51:01 -0400 Subject: Mispronouncing acronyms In-Reply-To: References: <20100802204619.C48C6A5826C@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: <4C577605.2070700@atarimuseum.com> Yeah - we keep this up and in a few msgs the whole thread to degenerate down to a good old fashion 80's to 90's Atari XL vs. Commodore 64 flame war, or worse - an Atari ST vs Amiga flame war ;-) Jason T wrote: > On Mon, Aug 2, 2010 at 8:15 PM, Gene Buckle wrote: > >> Like Sysop is _NEVER_ Seye-sop. :) >> > > Does "Seye" rhyme with (American) "hay" or "eye" there? > > I admit I did come up saying Sysop (assonant with "eye-mop.") I know > it's "Siss-op," I know. Sadly I haven't had cause to say it in years. > > From rick at rickmurphy.net Mon Aug 2 20:59:57 2010 From: rick at rickmurphy.net (Rick Murphy) Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2010 21:59:57 -0400 Subject: Pronouncing acronyms (was Re: DEC acronyms) In-Reply-To: <67AFF95DD501490DA767222AD0CC928D@ANTONIOPC> References: <67AFF95DD501490DA767222AD0CC928D@ANTONIOPC> Message-ID: <201008030159.o731xudl011647@rickmurphy.net> At 03:39 PM 8/2/2010, arcarlini at iee.org wrote: >Was it OS/8 (or a derivative) that started out as the >First User Customizable Keyboard monitor? The reply to the >obvious objection was Second User ... (I don't recall what >it actually shipped as). Well, close. First Upward-Compatible Keyboard monitor. That's apparently why the sources for OS/8 were distributed with comments stripped. -Rick From geoffr at zipcon.net Mon Aug 2 21:16:11 2010 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoffrey Reed) Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2010 19:16:11 -0700 Subject: DG 800/1200 questions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 8/2/10 5:03 PM, "Joost van de Griek" wrote: > On 2 August 2010 20:32, Tony Duell wrote: > >> AFAIK apart from that notch, they are mechanically the same -- same >> positieond of spools, capstan holes, head access hole, etc. Same design >> of spool/hub. Same position of the write-protect hole. I don't think >> there were any mirros for optical sensorts in the data cassetes either, >> but they may well have detected the clear leader by reflecitons off the >> cassette shell, so only light-coloured cassettes would work. > > Well, I've definitely seen black streamer cassettes (being offered). > What I meant was, they might have been engineered to a higher standard > than your average audio cassette. > > .tsooJ > /me hangs head in shame... About 20 years ago I had a bunch of audio recorded on old data cassettes and gave them all away about 10 years ago. From geoffr at zipcon.net Mon Aug 2 21:17:31 2010 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoffrey Reed) Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2010 19:17:31 -0700 Subject: Mispronouncing acronyms In-Reply-To: <4C5773FF.6090201@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: On 8/2/10 6:42 PM, "Curt @ Atari Museum" wrote: > Oh jeeez.... > > next thing, we're gonna starting have the Sysop argument: > > Its is pronounced 'sis' 'op' for System Operator > > or is it SY-SOP for SYstem Operator > > > ;-) Nope, it's "Boff-H" :) -BOFH- From ragooman at comcast.net Mon Aug 2 21:56:38 2010 From: ragooman at comcast.net (Dan Roganti) Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2010 22:56:38 -0400 Subject: FYI - Maryland Computer Museum article In-Reply-To: <4C574A86.1020608@snarc.net> References: <4C574063.3070401@bitsavers.org> <4C5745AC.9080806@snarc.net> <4C574773.2070101@atarimuseum.com> <4C574A86.1020608@snarc.net> Message-ID: <4C578566.2060805@comcast.net> I haven't seen the indoor photos before till now, I think that place is very impressive - I would add it to my list of travels. This is certainly not just a room full of stuff lying around in somebody's garage or living room. Even thought it's a private collection - alot of museums are privately owned - there's no rule that a museum is supposed to be publicly owned. From looking at the photos there, he made a great effort to have machines on display for the public, some mention of historical timeline is shown, including educational material [e.g. using video feeds]. Plus the mention of further exhibits being planned for display. All of which is the intention of a museum. =Dan http://www.vintagecomputer.net/ragooman Evan Koblentz wrote: > I know, I just hate when people mis-label stuff. Bob's private > collection is not a "museum". I would feel this way regardless of my > own efforts. > > --------------------------------------------- >> Not all of us have a former Naval Communications Research Base to >> setup our stuff in ;-) >> >> >> >> >> Evan Koblentz wrote: >>> >>>> http://weblogs.baltimoresun.com/news/technology/2010/08/marylands_computer_history_mus.html >>>> >>> >>> Here we go again .... >>> >>> Bob's collection is impressive. But that's all it is: a collection, >>> owned by one person, located inside a private office. >>> >> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 9.0.851 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3045 - Release Date: 08/02/10 02:35:00 > > From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Aug 2 22:06:43 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2010 20:06:43 -0700 Subject: Mispronouncing acronyms In-Reply-To: <4C56C98A.29425.F54A6F@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4C56C98A.29425.F54A6F@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4C5787C3.7000405@brouhaha.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > Does no one remember Veetock? (VTOC) Sure. On both IBM machines and the Apple II. Did anyone else use it? From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Aug 2 22:11:48 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2010 23:11:48 -0400 Subject: Mispronouncing acronyms In-Reply-To: <4C5787C3.7000405@brouhaha.com> References: <4C56C98A.29425.F54A6F@cclist.sydex.com> <4C5787C3.7000405@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4C5788F4.4070204@neurotica.com> On 8/2/10 11:06 PM, Eric Smith wrote: >> Does no one remember Veetock? (VTOC) > > Sure. On both IBM machines and the Apple II. Did anyone else use it? Sun.. (prtvtoc, etc) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ragooman at comcast.net Mon Aug 2 22:15:38 2010 From: ragooman at comcast.net (Dan Roganti) Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2010 23:15:38 -0400 Subject: Mispronouncing acronyms In-Reply-To: References: <20100802204619.C48C6A5826C@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: <4C5789DA.4020009@comcast.net> http://www.vintagecomputer.net/ragooman/ Jason T wrote: > On Mon, Aug 2, 2010 at 3:46 PM, Dennis Boone wrote: > >> Ran across somebody the other day who was surprised that DEC is often >> pronounced "deck". >> > > DEC is always "deck." NEC is *never* "neck." It's just the Way it Is. Sometimes people would have their own "vulgar" definitions for these acronyms, those I've heard mostly from FE's since they dealt directly with customers - just to irritate people for spite :) You have to realize that there was always some level of atagonizing by the other companies since these companies were the big boys of the day. Some of the simple ones were, [I forgot most of them] IBM = Itsy Bitsy Machines PDP = Pretty Damn Poor [machines] DEC = Dumb Engineering Corporation CDC = Creators [of] Dumb Computers MODCOMP = Mostly Old Disgusting COMPuters HARRIS = Heap Ass Refurbished Rubbish Inside Systems let's play nice.... =Dan From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Aug 2 22:17:07 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2010 23:17:07 -0400 Subject: FYI - Maryland Computer Museum article In-Reply-To: <4C578566.2060805@comcast.net> References: <4C574063.3070401@bitsavers.org> <4C5745AC.9080806@snarc.net> <4C574773.2070101@atarimuseum.com> <4C574A86.1020608@snarc.net> <4C578566.2060805@comcast.net> Message-ID: > - there's no rule that a museum is supposed to be publicly owned. I do not know about other states, but in New York - yes, real incorporated museums are public, officially part of University of the State of New York, and must follow the Rules of the Regents. -- Will From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Aug 2 22:18:01 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2010 23:18:01 -0400 Subject: Mispronouncing acronyms In-Reply-To: <4C5789DA.4020009@comcast.net> References: <20100802204619.C48C6A5826C@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <4C5789DA.4020009@comcast.net> Message-ID: <4C578A69.3050803@neurotica.com> On 8/2/10 11:15 PM, Dan Roganti wrote: > IBM = Itsy Bitsy Machines Insidious Blue Machines -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From geoffr at zipcon.net Mon Aug 2 22:18:50 2010 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoffrey Reed) Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2010 20:18:50 -0700 Subject: Mispronouncing acronyms In-Reply-To: <4C5787C3.7000405@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On 8/2/10 8:06 PM, "Eric Smith" wrote: > Chuck Guzis wrote: > >> Does no one remember Veetock? (VTOC) > > Sure. On both IBM machines and the Apple II. Did anyone else use it? > > If VTOC refers to Volume Table Of Contents, there were a couple TRS-80 disk operating systems that used it -I think- memory is a little hazy here. From geoffr at zipcon.net Mon Aug 2 22:19:53 2010 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoffrey Reed) Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2010 20:19:53 -0700 Subject: Mispronouncing acronyms In-Reply-To: <4C5789DA.4020009@comcast.net> Message-ID: On 8/2/10 8:15 PM, "Dan Roganti" wrote: > > http://www.vintagecomputer.net/ragooman/ > > Sometimes people would have their own "vulgar" definitions for these > acronyms, those I've heard mostly from FE's since they dealt directly > with customers - just to irritate people for spite :) You have to > realize that there was always some level of atagonizing by the other > companies since these companies were the big boys of the day. > Some of the simple ones were, [I forgot most of them] > IBM = Itsy Bitsy Machines -snip- IBM = I've Been Mislead From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Aug 2 22:24:09 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2010 20:24:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: FYI - Maryland Computer Museum article In-Reply-To: References: <4C574063.3070401@bitsavers.org> <4C5745AC.9080806@snarc.net> <4C574773.2070101@atarimuseum.com> <4C574A86.1020608@snarc.net> <4C578566.2060805@comcast.net> Message-ID: <20100802202332.M35000@shell.lmi.net> > > - there's no rule that a museum is supposed to be publicly owned. On Mon, 2 Aug 2010, William Donzelli wrote: > I do not know about other states, but in New York - yes, real > incorporated museums are public, officially part of University of the > State of New York, and must follow the Rules of the Regents. It's illegal there to start up an independent museum?? From ploopster at gmail.com Mon Aug 2 22:29:13 2010 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2010 23:29:13 -0400 Subject: FYI - Maryland Computer Museum article In-Reply-To: <20100802202332.M35000@shell.lmi.net> References: <4C574063.3070401@bitsavers.org> <4C5745AC.9080806@snarc.net> <4C574773.2070101@atarimuseum.com> <4C574A86.1020608@snarc.net> <4C578566.2060805@comcast.net> <20100802202332.M35000@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4C578D09.7040105@gmail.com> Fred Cisin wrote: >>> - there's no rule that a museum is supposed to be publicly owned. > >> I do not know about other states, but in New York - yes, real >> incorporated museums are public, officially part of University of the >> State of New York, and must follow the Rules of the Regents. > > It's illegal there to start up an independent museum?? Without USNY accreditation, it's next to impossible for a museum in New York State to obtain tax exempt status as a museum. It's similar to the accreditation requirement for public lending libraries. Peace... Sridhar From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Aug 2 22:30:20 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2010 20:30:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Mispronouncing acronyms In-Reply-To: <4C5788F4.4070204@neurotica.com> from Dave McGuire at "Aug 2, 10 11:11:48 pm" Message-ID: <201008030330.o733UK9U021846@floodgap.com> > > > Does no one remember Veetock? (VTOC) > > > > Sure. On both IBM machines and the Apple II. Did anyone else use it? > > Sun.. (prtvtoc, etc) Well, if Apple has the Veetock, Commodore had the BAM! -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Happiness is having a scratch for every itch. -- Ogden Nash ---------------- From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Aug 2 22:34:34 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2010 23:34:34 -0400 Subject: FYI - Maryland Computer Museum article In-Reply-To: <20100802202332.M35000@shell.lmi.net> References: <4C574063.3070401@bitsavers.org> <4C5745AC.9080806@snarc.net> <4C574773.2070101@atarimuseum.com> <4C574A86.1020608@snarc.net> <4C578566.2060805@comcast.net> <20100802202332.M35000@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: > It's illegal there to start up an independent museum?? If you incorporate as a non-profit, basically you have to go thru all the paperwork with the Regents. If you do not follow the rules, they can dissolve the corporation. I suppose there is nothing wrong with calling a personal collection a "museum" in New York, but certainly it would be illegal to be a "museum" (non-profit or other corporation) and not do the whole Regents thing. I think the state has busted people for this. -- Will From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Aug 2 22:36:06 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2010 20:36:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Mispronouncing acronyms In-Reply-To: <201008030330.o733UK9U021846@floodgap.com> References: <201008030330.o733UK9U021846@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <20100802203452.K35000@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 2 Aug 2010, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > Well, if Apple has the Veetock, Commodore had the BAM! . . . and MICROS~1 is F.A.T. (based on their earlier GAT) From cclist at sydex.com Mon Aug 2 22:36:55 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2010 20:36:55 -0700 Subject: Mispronouncing acronyms In-Reply-To: <4C5787C3.7000405@brouhaha.com> References: , <4C56C98A.29425.F54A6F@cclist.sydex.com>, <4C5787C3.7000405@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4C572C67.3731.2777726@cclist.sydex.com> On 2 Aug 2010 at 20:06, Eric Smith wrote: > Chuck Guzis wrote: > > > Does no one remember Veetock? (VTOC) > > Sure. On both IBM machines and the Apple II. Did anyone else use it? CDC terminology generally was "label". On Zodiac, we had a "Label label table" for multivolume databases. A bitmap was used to track allocation, called a Block Reservation Table and called "Bert". IBM had DASD (anyone pronouce it?); CDC had RMS. Crossing between the two cultures could be very confusing. Did anyone have a pronounceable version of "VSN"? (Volume Serial Number) --Chuck From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Aug 2 22:37:28 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2010 23:37:28 -0400 Subject: FYI - Maryland Computer Museum article In-Reply-To: <4C578D09.7040105@gmail.com> References: <4C574063.3070401@bitsavers.org> <4C5745AC.9080806@snarc.net> <4C574773.2070101@atarimuseum.com> <4C574A86.1020608@snarc.net> <4C578566.2060805@comcast.net> <20100802202332.M35000@shell.lmi.net> <4C578D09.7040105@gmail.com> Message-ID: > Without USNY accreditation, it's next to impossible for a museum in New York > State to obtain tax exempt status as a museum. ?It's similar to the > accreditation requirement for public lending libraries. It is mostly paperwork and legal crap, but actually pretty easy to follow the rules. Basically, the Regents make museums actually follow all the things they teach in Museums 101. -- Will From evan at snarc.net Mon Aug 2 22:43:34 2010 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2010 23:43:34 -0400 Subject: FYI - Maryland Computer Museum article In-Reply-To: <4C578D09.7040105@gmail.com> References: <4C574063.3070401@bitsavers.org> <4C5745AC.9080806@snarc.net> <4C574773.2070101@atarimuseum.com> <4C574A86.1020608@snarc.net> <4C578566.2060805@comcast.net> <20100802202332.M35000@shell.lmi.net> <4C578D09.7040105@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4C579066.5080301@snarc.net> > >>>> - there's no rule that a museum is supposed to be publicly owned. >> >>> I do not know about other states, but in New York - yes, real >>> incorporated museums are public, officially part of University of the >>> State of New York, and must follow the Rules of the Regents. >> >> It's illegal there to start up an independent museum?? > > Without USNY accreditation, it's next to impossible for a museum in > New York State to obtain tax exempt status as a museum. It's similar > to the accreditation requirement for public lending libraries. Exactly. To whoever asked the question: museums aren't profitable. Without being a non-profit, success is almost impossible. (Our museum here in NJ is an exception because we're a club that happens to get cost-free exhibit space. Even so, we're still en route to 501c3 status.) From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Aug 2 22:41:43 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2010 23:41:43 -0400 Subject: Mispronouncing acronyms In-Reply-To: <4C572C67.3731.2777726@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4C56C98A.29425.F54A6F@cclist.sydex.com>, <4C5787C3.7000405@brouhaha.com> <4C572C67.3731.2777726@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4C578FF7.3030307@neurotica.com> On 8/2/10 11:36 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > IBM had DASD (anyone pronouce it?); CDC had RMS. Crossing between > the two cultures could be very confusing. I say "dazzdee". I've never heard anyone say "Dee Ay Ess Dee". -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From drb at msu.edu Mon Aug 2 22:47:55 2010 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2010 23:47:55 -0400 Subject: Mispronouncing acronyms In-Reply-To: (Your message of Mon, 02 Aug 2010 23:15:38 EDT.) <4C5789DA.4020009@comcast.net> References: <4C5789DA.4020009@comcast.net> <20100802204619.C48C6A5826C@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: <20100803034755.4F563A5826C@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > Sometimes people would have their own "vulgar" definitions for these > acronyms, FM - F'ing magic MFM - Modified F'ing magic The Prime engineers were fond of these. One of 'em always made sure to plug his soldering iron into the PDU in the bottom of the cabinet, because "you don't want any heat spikes, you know?" De From cclist at sydex.com Mon Aug 2 22:50:28 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2010 20:50:28 -0700 Subject: FYI - Maryland Computer Museum article In-Reply-To: References: , <4C578D09.7040105@gmail.com>, Message-ID: <4C572F94.15290.283E046@cclist.sydex.com> On 2 Aug 2010 at 23:37, William Donzelli wrote: > Without USNY accreditation, it's next to impossible for a museum in > New York State to obtain tax exempt status as a museum. ?It's > similar to the accreditation requirement for public lending > libraries. As regards Federal tax status, is there any practical difference between being a tax-exempt museum and a plain old 510(c)3 corp.? "To be tax-exempt under section 501(c)(3) of the Internal Revenue Code, an organization must be organized and operated exclusively for exempt purposes set forth in section 501(c)(3), and none of its earnings may inure to any private shareholder or individual. In addition, it may not be an action organization, i.e., it may not attempt to influence legislation as a substantial part of its activities and it may not participate in any campaign activity for or against political candidates." --Chuck From drb at msu.edu Mon Aug 2 22:50:37 2010 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2010 23:50:37 -0400 Subject: Mispronouncing acronyms In-Reply-To: (Your message of Mon, 02 Aug 2010 20:36:55 PDT.) <4C572C67.3731.2777726@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4C572C67.3731.2777726@cclist.sydex.com> , <4C56C98A.29425.F54A6F@cclist.sydex.com>, <4C5787C3.7000405@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <20100803035037.C495AA5826C@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > CDC terminology generally was "label". On Zodiac, we had a "Label label > table" for multivolume databases. A bitmap was used to track > allocation, called a Block Reservation Table and called "Bert". Prime called it a Record Allocation Table, generally RAT or DSKRAT. Fitting somehow. > IBM had DASD (anyone pronouce it?); CDC had RMS. Crossing between the > two cultures could be very confusing. Always DAZZ DEE. > Did anyone have a pronounceable version of "VSN"? (Volume Serial > Number) VOLL SEER. :) How about VRN (visual reel number)? Don't think I ever heard it pronounced as other than letters. De From ploopster at gmail.com Mon Aug 2 22:56:43 2010 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2010 23:56:43 -0400 Subject: Mispronouncing acronyms In-Reply-To: <4C572C67.3731.2777726@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4C56C98A.29425.F54A6F@cclist.sydex.com>, <4C5787C3.7000405@brouhaha.com> <4C572C67.3731.2777726@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4C57937B.8090802@gmail.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > IBM had DASD (anyone pronouce it?); CDC had RMS. Crossing between > the two cultures could be very confusing. DAZZ-DEE. Everyone I know who deals with IBM mainframes (and that's a *lot* of people) pronounces it that way. Peace... Sridhar From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Aug 2 22:56:59 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2010 23:56:59 -0400 Subject: FYI - Maryland Computer Museum article In-Reply-To: <4C572F94.15290.283E046@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4C578D09.7040105@gmail.com> <4C572F94.15290.283E046@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > As regards Federal tax status, is there any practical difference > between being a tax-exempt museum and a plain old 510(c)3 corp.? Not really. Save-the-Whales, Inc. and The-Museum-of-Save-the-Whales., Inc. follow the same tax rules, providing they are both 501c3s. -- Will From ploopster at gmail.com Mon Aug 2 22:58:54 2010 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2010 23:58:54 -0400 Subject: FYI - Maryland Computer Museum article In-Reply-To: <4C572F94.15290.283E046@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4C578D09.7040105@gmail.com>, <4C572F94.15290.283E046@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4C5793FE.3060606@gmail.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 2 Aug 2010 at 23:37, William Donzelli wrote: > >> Without USNY accreditation, it's next to impossible for a museum in >> New York State to obtain tax exempt status as a museum. It's >> similar to the accreditation requirement for public lending >> libraries. William didn't write that. I did. Peace... Sridhar From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Aug 2 23:00:44 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2010 00:00:44 -0400 Subject: FYI - Maryland Computer Museum article In-Reply-To: <4C5793FE.3060606@gmail.com> References: <4C578D09.7040105@gmail.com> <4C572F94.15290.283E046@cclist.sydex.com> <4C5793FE.3060606@gmail.com> Message-ID: > William didn't write that. ?I did. But I will take credit, because it sounds good. -- Will From cclist at sydex.com Mon Aug 2 23:11:17 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2010 21:11:17 -0700 Subject: FYI - Maryland Computer Museum article In-Reply-To: References: , <4C572F94.15290.283E046@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4C573475.31989.296EDD6@cclist.sydex.com> On 2 Aug 2010 at 23:56, William Donzelli wrote: > Not really. Save-the-Whales, Inc. and The-Museum-of-Save-the-Whales., > Inc. follow the same tax rules, providing they are both 501c3s. But if one wanted to establish "The Museum of Erotic Potato Chips" or "The Museum of Interesting Gum Found Under Movie Theater Seats" (focus!) in New York State, one would need to be certified by the Regents? Wow. --Chuck From ploopster at gmail.com Mon Aug 2 23:14:05 2010 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2010 00:14:05 -0400 Subject: FYI - Maryland Computer Museum article In-Reply-To: <4C573475.31989.296EDD6@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4C572F94.15290.283E046@cclist.sydex.com>, <4C573475.31989.296EDD6@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4C57978D.5090900@gmail.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 2 Aug 2010 at 23:56, William Donzelli wrote: > >> Not really. Save-the-Whales, Inc. and The-Museum-of-Save-the-Whales., >> Inc. follow the same tax rules, providing they are both 501c3s. > > But if one wanted to establish "The Museum of Erotic Potato Chips" or > "The Museum of Interesting Gum Found Under Movie Theater Seats" > (focus!) in New York State, one would need to be certified by the > Regents? > > Wow. Yes, and as long as the museum would be willing to do the paperwork and follow the rules, either of your examples would be able to pass accreditation. Peace... Sridhar From ragooman at comcast.net Mon Aug 2 23:23:12 2010 From: ragooman at comcast.net (Dan Roganti) Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2010 00:23:12 -0400 Subject: FYI - Maryland Computer Museum article In-Reply-To: References: <4C574063.3070401@bitsavers.org> <4C5745AC.9080806@snarc.net> <4C574773.2070101@atarimuseum.com> <4C574A86.1020608@snarc.net> <4C578566.2060805@comcast.net> Message-ID: <4C5799B0.2020704@comcast.net> William Donzelli wrote: >> - there's no rule that a museum is supposed to be publicly owned. >> > > I do not know about other states, but in New York - yes, real > incorporated museums are public, officially part of University of the > State of New York, and must follow the Rules of the Regents. > I think the keyword is incorporate. There are private museums in New York. Whether they're incorporated is another question - they certainly not bothered about getting tax-exempt status for donations when they're able to afford the collection in the first place. The owners might be financially solvent to not worry - and then some. But they are museums nonetheless - not just some ragtime outfit. =Dan http://www.vintagecomputer.net/ragooman/ From rodsmallwood at btconnect.com Mon Aug 2 23:34:19 2010 From: rodsmallwood at btconnect.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2010 05:34:19 +0100 Subject: Pronouncing acronyms (was Re: DEC acronyms) In-Reply-To: References: from "RodSmallwood" at Sep 2, 10 07:45:34 am Message-ID: 1. I once nearly took a job with them 2. I thought they were called Ball as opposed to Balls. 3. I have several of the Ball VT100 boards referred to but lack a circuit diagram to fix them. It would be a Ball diagram as opposed to a DEC one. 4. No, the circuit is not in any of the DEC VT100 manuals. Regards ? Rod Smallwood -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tony Duell Sent: 02 August 2010 19:45 To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Pronouncing acronyms (was Re: DEC acronyms) > > > The ones I do remember=20 > > 1. BA11-ES always referred to as a Balls box That would have been confusing to me. Balls Brothers were a company well-known for embedded video monitors in the 1970s/1980s, including at leat one version of the VT100 video board. So a 'Balls Box' to me would be a VT100 (or something) with a Balls Brothers video board. > > 2. RSTS as Ristus It was normally 'rustus' among the people I knoew who used it... Getting away from DEC for a moment... I have been known to pronouch 'CRT' as 'Crut'. But oddly, I almost never pronouce LED as 'led'. It's always 'Ell Eee Dee' (or 'Lima Echo Delta' if I am being more silly than normal :-)) -tony From cclist at sydex.com Tue Aug 3 00:01:15 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2010 22:01:15 -0700 Subject: Mispronouncing acronyms In-Reply-To: <4C5787C3.7000405@brouhaha.com> References: , <4C56C98A.29425.F54A6F@cclist.sydex.com>, <4C5787C3.7000405@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4C57402B.28155.2C4B012@cclist.sydex.com> Okay, so who pronouces assembly mnemonics? (As far as I can recall, I've only been guilty of pronoucing BXLE as "bixle".) Or are assembly programmers the strong silent type? --Chuck From mtapley at swri.edu Tue Aug 3 00:05:53 2010 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2010 00:05:53 -0500 Subject: Mispronouncing acronyms In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 22:17 -0500 8/2/10, Tim wrote: >Tim "Excessive force in the apprehension of abused acronyms has been >approved" Shoppa. Ah! a quote from one of my favorites - "The Big Blues Brothers" :-) -- - Mark 210-379-4635 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Large Asteroids headed toward planets inhabited by beings that don't have technology adequate to stop them: Think of it as Evolution in Fast-Forward. From legalize at xmission.com Tue Aug 3 05:00:08 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2010 04:00:08 -0600 Subject: OT? Tek 4014 emulator (tying Xterm to ttyS0) In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 03 Aug 2010 01:40:09 +0100. <4C576569.3060101@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: In article <4C576569.3060101 at philpem.me.uk>, Philip Pemberton writes: > It doesn't let me send text back to the serial port (obviously, because > 'cat' is one-way). Then use kermit as others have suggested, or use a perl script, etc. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Tue Aug 3 05:01:22 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2010 04:01:22 -0600 Subject: Tek Fiche update In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 02 Aug 2010 16:27:27 -0700. <518253.99364.qm@web80502.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: In article <518253.99364.qm at web80502.mail.mud.yahoo.com>, Bob Rosenbloom writes: > I have the service manuals for the 4114. I can get them to Al at bitsavers (a ssuming he has time!) if you want. If you get them to me, I can scan them to Al's specifications for bitsavers. (We've done this before.) -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From shoppa at trailing-edge.com Tue Aug 3 05:57:47 2010 From: shoppa at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2010 06:57:47 -0400 Subject: Mispronouncing acronyms Message-ID: <20100803105747.1C10E1E0226@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Mark wrote: > At 22:17 -0500 8/2/10, Tim wrote: >> Tim "Excessive force in the apprehension of abused acronyms has been >> approved" Shoppa. > Ah! a quote from one of my favorites - "The Big Blues Brothers" Of course the Blues Brothers had their own computer acronym: SCMODS = State County and Municipal Offender Data System pronounced Skamods with a distinct tone of disdain by Elwood IIRC. The cop car terminals looked pretty slick for 1980. Almost like mobile PLATO terminals with their orange plasma display. Maybe it was an actual Motorola product? Of course Motorola and PLATO were also suburban Chicago/Illinois tie-ins :-). And the mall that gets destroyed, I have been told, was (previous to being a mall) one of the Teletype factories in Skokie. Tim. From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Tue Aug 3 07:18:47 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2010 09:18:47 -0300 Subject: Mispronouncing acronyms References: <20100802204619.C48C6A5826C@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <4C577605.2070700@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <046a01cb3308$9a274190$0600000a@portajara> > Yeah - we keep this up and in a few msgs the whole thread to degenerate > down to a good old fashion 80's to 90's Atari XL vs. Commodore 64 flame > war, or worse - an Atari ST vs Amiga flame war ;-) But of course, the Atari is way better!!! :oD (ok, I was kidding, but I never had a ST...I think this is the only mainstream computer I never had :( ) From geneb at deltasoft.com Tue Aug 3 07:58:37 2010 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2010 05:58:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Mispronouncing acronyms In-Reply-To: References: <20100802204619.C48C6A5826C@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, 2 Aug 2010, Mike Loewen wrote: > On Mon, 2 Aug 2010, Gene Buckle wrote: > >> Like Sysop is _NEVER_ Seye-sop. :) > > Jason Ward (RIP) always pronounced it that way, and I could never break > him of the habit. > You should have tried jumping up and down and yelling a lot. It was crucial in my breaking a friend of using "worser". :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From geneb at deltasoft.com Tue Aug 3 08:00:33 2010 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2010 06:00:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Mispronouncing acronyms In-Reply-To: <4C577605.2070700@atarimuseum.com> References: <20100802204619.C48C6A5826C@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <4C577605.2070700@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 2 Aug 2010, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > Yeah - we keep this up and in a few msgs the whole thread to degenerate down > to a good old fashion 80's to 90's Atari XL vs. Commodore 64 flame war, or > worse - an Atari ST vs Amiga flame war ;-) > That's not even a contest. Commodore rules, Atari drools. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From pat at computer-refuge.org Tue Aug 3 08:28:53 2010 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2010 09:28:53 -0400 Subject: DG 800/1200 questions In-Reply-To: <4C573E1A.30509@hachti.de> References: <42E490EB6EDD4A69A1AC3A8C992D566E@OSA.local> <4C55AEEB.6080404@bitsavers.org> <4C573E1A.30509@hachti.de> Message-ID: <201008030928.53886.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Monday, August 02, 2010, Philipp Hachtmann wrote: > I for example have a DG Nova 2 and nearly *NO* information about it. > All I know is that the PSU and lights are OK. And that I can play > around a bit. I have no reliable documentation. And no clue how to > hook up a TTY or load software and all the like... > > That might sound a bit stupid... but... I got frustrated by the lack > of *everything* for my Nova. All I have for the machine is plenty of > core memory... > > Why is DG stuff not put onto Bitsavers? Because EMC (the current owners of the IPO) would send lawyers at Al so quickly, your head would spin. There however has been some talk of someone negotiating with EMC to get some sort of hobbyist license/distribution for some of the software. Check the list archives - it has been talked about before a few times. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From christian_liendo at yahoo.com Tue Aug 3 08:31:00 2010 From: christian_liendo at yahoo.com (Christian Liendo) Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2010 06:31:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: In Russia.. Ah forget it.. Impressive CPU collection In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <884333.48286.qm@web113505.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> I was trying to think of a "In Russia" joke, but this guys collection is rather impressive. This guy has a rather impressive CPU collection. http://englishrussia.com/index.php/2010/07/28/humble-cpus-collection-of-a-russian-geek/ From christian_liendo at yahoo.com Tue Aug 3 08:34:53 2010 From: christian_liendo at yahoo.com (Christian Liendo) Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2010 06:34:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Aug 3 1977 The TRS-80 was launched. In-Reply-To: <884333.48286.qm@web113505.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <201720.46472.qm@web113506.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> http://www.wired.com/thisdayintech/2010/08/0803trs-80-computer-launch From pat at computer-refuge.org Tue Aug 3 08:41:41 2010 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2010 09:41:41 -0400 Subject: DG 800/1200 questions In-Reply-To: <201008030928.53886.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <42E490EB6EDD4A69A1AC3A8C992D566E@OSA.local> <4C573E1A.30509@hachti.de> <201008030928.53886.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <201008030941.41167.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Tuesday, August 03, 2010, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > On Monday, August 02, 2010, Philipp Hachtmann wrote: > > I for example have a DG Nova 2 and nearly *NO* information about > > it. All I know is that the PSU and lights are OK. And that I can > > play around a bit. I have no reliable documentation. And no clue > > how to hook up a TTY or load software and all the like... > > > > That might sound a bit stupid... but... I got frustrated by the > > lack of *everything* for my Nova. All I have for the machine is > > plenty of core memory... > > > > Why is DG stuff not put onto Bitsavers? > > Because EMC (the current owners of the IPO) would send lawyers at Al > so quickly, your head would spin. Oops, that's supposed to read "IP" as in intellectual property. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Aug 3 09:13:32 2010 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2010 09:13:32 -0500 Subject: Mispronouncing acronyms In-Reply-To: References: <20100802235732.6FC981E025E@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> <4C57656A.8020506@aurigae.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <201008031415.o73EEwlL013446@billY.EZWIND.NET> At 07:48 PM 8/2/2010, Jason T wrote: >On Mon, Aug 2, 2010 at 7:40 PM, Phill Harvey-Smith > wrote: >> corrupted text screen it would be described as "my screen was full of ASCII >> characters" Well duuuhhh what do you think the normal ones are(1). Really? How could you be sure? Once they're on the screen, don't they look the same? >When my friends want to shop for "organic" vegetables, I ask them >where the silicon-based ones are... In the same aisle as the organic mineral supplements. - John From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Aug 3 09:35:46 2010 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2010 10:35:46 -0400 Subject: In Russia.. Ah forget it.. Impressive CPU collection In-Reply-To: <884333.48286.qm@web113505.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <884333.48286.qm@web113505.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4C582942.30400@gmail.com> Christian Liendo wrote: > I was trying to think of a "In Russia" joke, but this guys collection is rather impressive. In Soviet Russia, CPU's collect YOU? Peace... Sridhar From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Aug 3 09:39:05 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2010 07:39:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: In Russia.. Ah forget it.. Impressive CPU collection In-Reply-To: <4C582942.30400@gmail.com> from Sridhar Ayengar at "Aug 3, 10 10:35:46 am" Message-ID: <201008031439.o73Ed54k008004@floodgap.com> > > I was trying to think of a "In Russia" joke, but this guys collection is > > rather impressive. > > In Soviet Russia, CPU's collect YOU? In Soviet Russia, CPU registers YOU! (Get it? CPU registers?) -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Not sun-worshippers: Son-worshippers! -- Uhura, Star Trek "Bread & Circuses" From dkelvey at hotmail.com Tue Aug 3 10:07:54 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2010 08:07:54 -0700 Subject: intel MSD-720 In-Reply-To: <4C56FCF7.4020907@att.net> References: <4C56FCF7.4020907@att.net> Message-ID: Hi I believe this is the same drive box I got from Eric Smith in trade a few years back. If so, it was intended to go under a Series II MDS computer and as was mentioned was connected to a double density card set. This was the double density M2FM that Intel adopted ( thinking that IBM was going to adopt but didn't ). I was told that the drives have a slightly higher frequency response than the regular SA800's. Other than that, they are just drives and power supply. As I said, they were form fit to sit under the Series II. The Series II had an internal single density drive but most wanted the greater density for developement work. When I worked for Intel, I was responsible for the test of the data separator card that was part of the pair of cards used The orther card was a bit slice using 3000 series bitslice to run the states of the controller. It would be cool if it came with the cards as well. These can be plugged into any multibus as a disk controller. Dwight > Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2010 13:14:31 -0400 > From: shumaker at att.net > To: > Subject: intel MSD-720 > > can anyone shed some light on what this might be: > > Floppy Disk Drives (internal) 8" dual drive console, Intel MSD-720 > > item is listed in a large Craigs List ad that's been up essentially > unchanged for months > attempts to get more info out of the seller have been less than successful. > > the closest thing I can find is a reference to an "option 720" on > classiccomp's link to Joe's Intel MDS page. MDS 200 series apparently > had something called "option 720" but there's little info about it other > than it appears to be an external floppy unit. > > thoughts welcome.... > > > Steve From afra at aurigae.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 3 10:16:24 2010 From: afra at aurigae.demon.co.uk (afra at aurigae.demon.co.uk) Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2010 16:16:24 +0100 Subject: Mispronouncing acronyms In-Reply-To: <201008031415.o73EEwlL013446@billY.EZWIND.NET> References: <20100802235732.6FC981E025E@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> <4C57656A.8020506@aurigae.demon.co.uk> <201008031415.o73EEwlL013446@billY.EZWIND.NET> Message-ID: <20100803161624.19396mh7puia89c8@aurigae.demon.co.uk> Quoting John Foust : > At 07:48 PM 8/2/2010, Jason T wrote: >> On Mon, Aug 2, 2010 at 7:40 PM, Phill Harvey-Smith >> wrote: >>> corrupted text screen it would be described as "my screen was full of ASCII >>> characters" Well duuuhhh what do you think the normal ones are(1). > > Really? How could you be sure? Once they're on the screen, > don't they look the same? Well it was a college of FE and they pretty much only used PC clones which almost exclusivly use ASCII :) Now in my present job we did used to have an IBM system 36, which I believe used EBCDIC, we did have soem PCs with twinax cards running emulation software to access it. >> When my friends want to shop for "organic" vegetables, I ask them >> where the silicon-based ones are... > > In the same aisle as the organic mineral supplements. That's not such a good analogy, it's perfectly possible to have a mineral with an organic and a non organic part at least using the chemisty definition of organic...... Cheers. Phill. ---------------------------------------------------------------- This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. From legalize at xmission.com Tue Aug 3 10:20:30 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2010 09:20:30 -0600 Subject: In Russia.. Ah forget it.. Impressive CPU collection In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 03 Aug 2010 07:39:05 -0700. <201008031439.o73Ed54k008004@floodgap.com> Message-ID: In article <201008031439.o73Ed54k008004 at floodgap.com>, Cameron Kaiser writes: > In Soviet Russia, CPU registers YOU! > > (Get it? CPU registers?) Anyone on this list that doesn't get it without your parenthetical remark should humbly unsubscribe from this list. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Tue Aug 3 10:22:29 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2010 09:22:29 -0600 Subject: Mispronouncing acronyms In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 03 Aug 2010 09:13:32 -0500. <201008031415.o73EEwlL013446@billY.EZWIND.NET> Message-ID: My terminal crashed and now it only displays baudot. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Tue Aug 3 10:28:01 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2010 16:28:01 +0100 Subject: In Russia.. Ah forget it.. Impressive CPU collection In-Reply-To: <201008031439.o73Ed54k008004@floodgap.com> References: <201008031439.o73Ed54k008004@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <4C583581.2060800@philpem.me.uk> On 03/08/10 15:39, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > In Soviet Russia, CPU registers YOU! *groan* Cameron, that was awful. Go hang your head in shame... -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From cclist at sydex.com Tue Aug 3 11:37:32 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2010 09:37:32 -0700 Subject: intel MSD-720 In-Reply-To: References: <4C56FCF7.4020907@att.net>, Message-ID: <4C57E35C.26293.367642@cclist.sydex.com> On 3 Aug 2010 at 8:07, dwight elvey wrote: > It would be cool if it came with the cards as well. These can be > plugged into any multibus as a disk controller. "Cool" is not a word that comes to mind. I recall that the digital board ran very hot. Just funnin' with ya... --Chuck From thomas.gardner at sbcglobal.net Tue Aug 3 12:29:36 2010 From: thomas.gardner at sbcglobal.net (Tom Gardner) Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2010 10:29:36 -0700 Subject: Mispronouncing acronyms In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2B376D3C5FDD474A9CD3DA445893927D@tegp4> ... > > IBM had DASD (anyone pronouce it?); CDC had RMS. Crossing between > > the two cultures could be very confusing. > > I say "dazzdee". I've never heard anyone say "Dee Ay Ess Dee". It's mostly been Dazz Dee for me; however, occasionally I have heard or said Dee Ay Ess Dee How about IBM's CKD - always "See Kay Dee"? BTW, did anyone else use CKD (other than PCMs), perhaps RCA (who arguably was a PCM+)? And was the 3390-3 the last CKD DASD? Tom From uban at ubanproductions.com Tue Aug 3 13:27:54 2010 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2010 13:27:54 -0500 Subject: hard to find potentiometer In-Reply-To: <4C49EB57.7060501@gsi.de> References: <4C49EB57.7060501@gsi.de> Message-ID: <4C585FAA.3090003@ubanproductions.com> I am looking for a seemingly hard to find precision potentiometer. The broken original is a Bourns 3856A-282-504A and is a 3-3/4 turn 1/4 shaft 500K 10% linear device. Here is the spec sheet: http://www.bourns.com/pdfs/385126.pdf Does anyone know where I can obtain either an exact replacement or a similar part? --tnx --tom From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Aug 3 13:28:54 2010 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2010 14:28:54 -0400 Subject: Mispronouncing acronyms In-Reply-To: <2B376D3C5FDD474A9CD3DA445893927D@tegp4> References: <2B376D3C5FDD474A9CD3DA445893927D@tegp4> Message-ID: <4C585FE6.204@gmail.com> Tom Gardner wrote: >>> IBM had DASD (anyone pronouce it?); CDC had RMS. Crossing between >>> the two cultures could be very confusing. >> >> I say "dazzdee". I've never heard anyone say "Dee Ay Ess Dee". > > It's mostly been Dazz Dee for me; > however, occasionally I have heard or said Dee Ay Ess Dee > > How about IBM's CKD - always "See Kay Dee"? Most people I've heard say "see kay dee", but some people have said "sicd" as in "he sicd the dog on me". Peace... Sridhar From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Aug 3 13:31:39 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2010 14:31:39 -0400 Subject: Mispronouncing acronyms In-Reply-To: <2B376D3C5FDD474A9CD3DA445893927D@tegp4> References: <2B376D3C5FDD474A9CD3DA445893927D@tegp4> Message-ID: <4C58608B.1020202@neurotica.com> On 8/3/10 1:29 PM, Tom Gardner wrote: >>> IBM had DASD (anyone pronouce it?); CDC had RMS. Crossing between >>> the two cultures could be very confusing. >> >> I say "dazzdee". I've never heard anyone say "Dee Ay Ess Dee". > > It's mostly been Dazz Dee for me; > however, occasionally I have heard or said Dee Ay Ess Dee Eeek, that's pretty long! > How about IBM's CKD - always "See Kay Dee"? Once, exactly once, I've heard "sicked" and "fibba" for CKD and FBA. I spell out the letters. > BTW, did anyone else use CKD (other than PCMs), perhaps RCA (who arguably > was a PCM+)? I've never heard of it outside of IBM; it was pretty specific to their implementation as far as I know. > And was the 3390-3 the last CKD DASD? Hmm, good question! I don't have a ready reference to DASD model numbers and specs. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 3 12:47:19 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2010 18:47:19 +0100 (BST) Subject: retr0brite not so right? In-Reply-To: <4C54D447.8090003@jwsss.com> from "jim s" at Jul 31, 10 06:56:23 pm Message-ID: [Why not run a rare classic computer] > simply put, I'd like to have the machines available for those who might > want to examine them in 50 > years or so, and the parts are really really not available to address > repair, and having them blown up > now isn't such a good idea. There is one problem with this argument. That is that some parts will fail with age whether you run the machine or not. It's not that you have X thousand hours of running time which you can use up now, or keep for 100 years time. The decay of plastic parts, rollers, etc is well-known. So is bit-rot in EPROMs I(and some otehr programmed devices). And ICs will fail with time even if they are not powered on (althogh I will grant that they will last a lot longer if not powered on -- mostly...) The time to document machines, and work out repair methods is when they are working, not after htey have failed. A trivial example of this is a CRT-based monitor. When it is working, IMHO, you should record the CRT electrode votlages and any other voltages that are meaningful (e.g. supply lines derrived fro mteh flyback transformer). The point being, when it fails, you can re-take those votlages and see how they compare. And of course the time to make copies of EPROMs, etc, is when the machine sitll works. If it has fialed, you have no idea whether the data in said chips is still good. > > Anything one owns, you can run, back over with a truck, whatever, but > eventually it will fail and > be useless. One of a kind items without hope of finding parts run now > will have zero hope of Actually, for a lot of the rare machines I've come across (and worked on), most of the parts are still obtainable, some of them very easily obtainable. > ever being carefully restored and run at any point in the future if you > run it now and burn it up. > > And no matter how wonderful these things are we have to collect, if you > have one or two of the > more common items that function, do you really have to have 50 or 100 > that function and are at Well, if you have 100 fo the same machine, I would agree you don't have to run them all, But if you have 100 of the same machine, it can hardly be classed as 'rare'... If you have 100 different machines, I could see good reasons for wanting to run a particualr machine. An Apple 1 is very different to a PERQ2T4, after all... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 3 12:49:19 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2010 18:49:19 +0100 (BST) Subject: scammed an HP 98788A b & w monitor In-Reply-To: <677217.49547.qm@web65503.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> from "Chris M" at Aug 1, 10 04:54:27 pm Message-ID: > > not totally sure of it's overall health, but it kind of works thus far. > > apparently was used on an HP-UX w/s @ AT & T (so says the sticker). > > an unusual bugger. Unique amongst my jumbo monitors. > > Now only need the HP-UX station to go along w/it... If you've not already looked thrre, you might find some information, such as which machines it was used with, on http://www.hpmuseum.net/ -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 3 12:56:50 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2010 18:56:50 +0100 (BST) Subject: Mispronouncing acronyms In-Reply-To: from "Shoppa, Tim" at Aug 2, 10 04:05:52 pm Message-ID: > > My favorite was an undergraduate computing help desk that > Always managed to insist that the "vi" editor was pronounced "six". When I was first intalling Minix, almost 20 years ago, my late mother asked 'What on earth is Six?' :-). However, my mother, while very intellegent, was no way a compter person, so I think she can be forgiven. However for a help desk to do the same...ARGH! -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 3 12:39:25 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2010 18:39:25 +0100 (BST) Subject: preserving computers (was: retr0brite not so right?) In-Reply-To: from "joe lobocki" at Jul 31, 10 07:16:57 pm Message-ID: > > so wait, how much vacuum would destroy something? I have a few things > sealed in Foodsaver bags, is this enough vaccum to do damage? I doubt that;s a hard enough vacuum to do any harm.. I'd be more worried about static charges from the bags, actually. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 3 13:09:48 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2010 19:09:48 +0100 (BST) Subject: Mispronouncing acronyms In-Reply-To: <4C56D730.24720.12A9919@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Aug 2, 10 02:33:20 pm Message-ID: > Was once informed by a friend who worked as a field engineer for the > Maynard Mafia that "Deck" was officially frowned upon; one should > apparently always say "Digital" when in the presence of customers. Yes, I was told that too, which mwant I always called them 'Deck' if there ws a failed servoid in the room... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 3 14:09:10 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2010 20:09:10 +0100 (BST) Subject: retr0brite not so right? In-Reply-To: from "Richard" at Aug 2, 10 05:10:39 pm Message-ID: > Just so its clear: I would never allow "one of a kind" items to be > operated. For things like that, you create a replica/simulacrum I really don't see the point in owning or presrving a machine if you never operate it. Sure you don't let j-random-plubinc lose on it, but surely you'd run it yourself or let other clueful people hace a go. I have been lent some fairly rare machines (<20 know to exist) with the lender knowing I am going to take them apart. As he said 'I have them for educatiunal reasons, and you want to use them for learning'. (And yes, I did put them back together again, working...) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 3 14:12:19 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2010 20:12:19 +0100 (BST) Subject: Mispronouncing acronyms In-Reply-To: <4C57656A.8020506@aurigae.demon.co.uk> from "Phill Harvey-Smith" at Aug 3, 10 01:40:10 am Message-ID: > The other one I used to here about ASCII, was when a program crashed > with a corrupted text screen it would be described as "my screen was > full of ASCII characters" Well duuuhhh what do you think the normal ones > are(1). Actually more often than not it was full of extended ASCII.... I think I'd be more likely to say 'Myt screen was full of non-ASCII characters', meaning (in this case) ones from the IBM PC exteneded character set with bit 7 set. ASCII is a 7 bit code, after all.. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 3 14:30:37 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2010 20:30:37 +0100 (BST) Subject: Pronouncing acronyms (was Re: DEC acronyms) In-Reply-To: from "Rod Smallwood" at Aug 3, 10 05:34:19 am Message-ID: > > > 1. I once nearly took a job with them > 2. I thought they were called Ball as opposed to Balls. You are probslby right... > 3. I have several of the Ball VT100 boards referred to but lack a = > circuit > diagram to fix them. It would be a Ball diagram as opposed to a DEC one. > > 4. No, the circuit is not in any of the DEC VT100 manuals. Hang on a second...I know from your positings here that you are clueful.... And the VT100 video board -- any version -- is pretty simple. So why not trace out the scheamtic. It wouldn't take more than an afternoon... I think all the versions of VT100 video board that I've seen use the same flyback transfoemr (separately mounted on the chssis) which is a great help. Figuring out the windings of the flyback is a pain, becuase they have such a low DC resistnace that the show as a dead short on most ohmmeter. Desodler any low-resistnace compoennts from the PCB (inductoctors, transfofmers, fuses, etc ) before you start, and then start tracing connections with an ohmmeter. You amy find much fo the ciruitry is similar to one of the boards in the manual, which is a help. If I can mange to do machines with a couple of hundred ICs, then I am sure yoy can manage the VT100 video board... -tony From RichA at vulcan.com Tue Aug 3 15:00:16 2010 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2010 13:00:16 -0700 Subject: Mystery print drum In-Reply-To: <20100802173934.V35000@shell.lmi.net> References: , , <4C55E9CF.5920.3283BF5@cclist.sydex.com> <4C568C6A.3061.6858E@cclist.sydex.com> <4C57636D.1040709@gmail.com> <20100802173934.V35000@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: From: Fred Cisin Sent: Monday, August 02, 2010 5:44 PM >>> The 64 character rows are laid out, thusly: >>> 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 . 8 , 9 - E T A I S O N H R D L U C M F W Y P G >>> 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 . 8 , 9 - V B K J $ * Q X Z # / + : = ' ( ) > < On Mon, 2 Aug 2010, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >> I'm not familiar with the layout, but 160 columns makes me think Tally. > When using frequency of usage for probabilities in code breaking, the most > common sequence (from most common letter to least) is often > E T A I O N S H R D L U That's for English. Other Latin-alphabet languages will have different frequencies. Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.PDPplanet.org/ http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From RichA at vulcan.com Tue Aug 3 15:10:06 2010 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2010 13:10:06 -0700 Subject: Mispronouncing acronyms In-Reply-To: <4C57402B.28155.2C4B012@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4C56C98A.29425.F54A6F@cclist.sydex.com>, <4C5787C3.7000405@brouhaha.com> <4C57402B.28155.2C4B012@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: From: Chuck Guzis Sent: Monday, August 02, 2010 10:01 PM > Okay, so who pronouces assembly mnemonics? (As far as I can recall, > I've only been guilty of pronoucing BXLE as "bixle".) PDP-10 programmers as a group generally pronounce many, if not all, assembler mnemonics. Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.PDPplanet.org/ http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From RichA at vulcan.com Tue Aug 3 15:20:41 2010 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2010 13:20:41 -0700 Subject: Mispronouncing acronyms In-Reply-To: <20100803105747.1C10E1E0226@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> References: <20100803105747.1C10E1E0226@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: From: Tim Shoppa Sent: Tuesday, August 03, 2010 3:58 AM Mark wrote: >> At 22:17 -0500 8/2/10, Tim wrote: >>> Tim "Excessive force in the apprehension of abused acronyms has been >>> approved" Shoppa. >> Ah! a quote from one of my favorites - "The Big Blues Brothers" > Of course the Blues Brothers had their own computer acronym: > SCMODS = State County and Municipal Offender Data System > pronounced Skamods with a distinct tone of disdain by Elwood IIRC. It was real, if not necessarily accurately portrayed. > The cop car terminals looked pretty slick for 1980. Almost like mobile PLATO > terminals with their orange plasma display. Maybe it was an actual > Motorola product? Of course Motorola and PLATO were also suburban > Chicago/Illinois tie-ins :-). And the mall that gets destroyed, I have > been told, was (previous to being a mall) one of the Teletype factories > in Skokie. Actually, it was a defunct, bankrupt shopping mall in a southwest suburb, standing in for a non-existent shopping mall in the northwest suburb of Park Ridge.[1] At least, that's what we all knew in Chicago when the movie came out. [1] Suburban Chicago is divided into Near North, Far North, Northwest, Western, Southwest, and South. Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.PDPplanet.org/ http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Aug 3 15:21:52 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2010 13:21:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Mystery print drum In-Reply-To: References: , , <4C55E9CF.5920.3283BF5@cclist.sydex.com> <4C568C6A.3061.6858E@cclist.sydex.com> <4C57636D.1040709@gmail.com> <20100802173934.V35000@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20100803131320.K77280@shell.lmi.net> > >>> The 64 character rows are laid out, thusly: > >>> 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 . 8 , 9 - E T A I S O N H R D L U C M F W Y P G > >>> 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 . 8 , 9 - V B K J $ * Q X Z # / + : = ' ( ) > < > > When using frequency of usage for probabilities in code breaking, the most > > common sequence (from most common letter to least) is often > > E T A I O N S H R D L U On Tue, 3 Aug 2010, Rich Alderson wrote: > That's for English. Other Latin-alphabet languages will have different > frequencies. Absolutely! I think that French has 'L' near the top. Can you think of what language has 'S' a few characters closer to the top than English? Is there any significance to which characters are NOT present? (such as '?' ';') From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Aug 3 15:27:29 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2010 16:27:29 -0400 Subject: Mispronouncing acronyms In-Reply-To: References: <20100803105747.1C10E1E0226@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: > Actually, it was a defunct, bankrupt shopping mall in a southwest suburb, > standing in for a non-existent shopping mall in the northwest suburb of > Park Ridge.[1] > > At least, that's what we all knew in Chicago when the movie came out. Some (a very little) of the street scenes are actually Park Ridge. -- Will From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Tue Aug 3 15:47:37 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2010 21:47:37 +0100 Subject: retr0brite not so right? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C588069.7050708@philpem.me.uk> On 02/08/10 19:36, Tony Duell wrote: > Even if I had to spend it on classic computers, the Apple 1 would not be > high up the list :-). Agreed. As I've said, I'd rather like a SYM-1, KIM-1 or AIM-65. But given that I've talked to a couple of people who said "yeah, I've got loads of those in a warehouse, you can have one" and then dropped off the face of the earth... I'm not hopeful. Actually at this point I'd settle for getting my Jupiter Ace motherboard back from Lee Davison. Again, chance close to nil. Even getting a bare Ace PCB or a broken Ace to fix would be nice... I'd build up the bare PCB on the grounds that: - It'll be a fun evening's work - I know other people have bare PCBs and that they're not "one-off" rare (AIUI a box of them was sold off when Jupiter Cantab went bust) - As a bare board, it's as useful and as entertaining as a brick. Build it up and it becomes a whole lot more interesting. > Err, the Apple 1 is a single-board machine :-) Yes, but not the sort of machine I was thinking of (a "microcomputer trainer" type thing). > Hmm, we will ahve to agree to disagree, I think. I regard the Apple ][ as > one of the worst designs ever because it's such a minimal parts count > (IMHO a few more chips would ahve made it a lot better). In some ways it is a completely evil design. Reverse engineering it is diabolically hard, and I think some parts of the design must have been conceived by a madman or a masochist. But getting the parts count down that far? Cool. > But I feel the > BBC Micro is one of the best (if not _the_ best) 8 bitters. A very > elegant design... The BBC is a lovely design. From an expandability point of view alone it's something that -- even today -- is worth keeping on or near an electronics workbench with a User-Port-to-breadboard cable. And if you need a few more I/Os, there's always the 1MHz Bus. They make terrific logic pattern generators, the BASIC has full floating point and a good range of math operators (I don't have a full list to hand, but IIRC it at least has sine, cosine and tangent, and possible arc-tangent as well) and the machine itself is built like a Chieftain tank. Plus if something goes wrong, it's all LSTTL or easily obtainable parts (aside from a ULA or two and possibly the SAA5050). If you had to, then there's almost certainly enough documentation (reverse engineered and otherwise) to rebuild a BBC Micro video or serial ULA. Keeping the machine running wouldn't be a problem... Well, as long as you had a supply of spare 100nF X2 capacitors for the power supply filter. Those go pop at an alarming rate, and have a rotten tendency of caking the innards of the machine with brown ichor when they do. -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Aug 3 16:05:21 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2010 14:05:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Mystery print drum In-Reply-To: <20100803131320.K77280@shell.lmi.net> from Fred Cisin at "Aug 3, 10 01:21:52 pm" Message-ID: <201008032105.o73L5L50013022@floodgap.com> > Can you think of what language has 'S' a few characters closer to the top > than English? I bet Spanish. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- "Another day, another dangling modifier" ----------------------------------- From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Aug 3 16:28:20 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2010 14:28:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Mystery print drum In-Reply-To: <201008032105.o73L5L50013022@floodgap.com> References: <201008032105.o73L5L50013022@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <20100803142156.B77280@shell.lmi.net> > > Can you think of what language has 'S' a few characters closer to the top > > than English? On Tue, 3 Aug 2010, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > I bet Spanish. But, if it were intended for Spanish, then I would expect a few other changes: regular and inverted question marks and exclamation points (tho this example has no question marks nor exclamation points at all) a tilde that can be placed over some 'N's (overstrike?) (ever see the CalTrans signs for "La Canada Road"?) The single quote that is present could function of any needed accent marks From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Aug 3 16:30:54 2010 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2010 17:30:54 -0400 Subject: Mystery print drum In-Reply-To: <20100803142156.B77280@shell.lmi.net> References: <201008032105.o73L5L50013022@floodgap.com> <20100803142156.B77280@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4C588A8E.5000900@gmail.com> Fred Cisin wrote: >>> Can you think of what language has 'S' a few characters closer to the top >>> than English? > > On Tue, 3 Aug 2010, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> I bet Spanish. > > But, if it were intended for Spanish, then I would expect a few other > changes: German? Peace... Sridhar From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Aug 3 16:32:51 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2010 14:32:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Mystery print drum In-Reply-To: <20100803142156.B77280@shell.lmi.net> from Fred Cisin at "Aug 3, 10 02:28:20 pm" Message-ID: <201008032132.o73LWpgm014536@floodgap.com> > > > Can you think of what language has 'S' a few characters closer to the top > > > than English? > > On Tue, 3 Aug 2010, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > I bet Spanish. > > But, if it were intended for Spanish, then I would expect a few other > changes: > regular and inverted question marks and exclamation points (tho > this example has no question marks nor exclamation points at all) > > a tilde that can be placed over some 'N's (overstrike?) > (ever see the CalTrans signs for "La Canada Road"?) > > The single quote that is present could function of any needed > accent marks I'm not so sure based on the wheel, though. My Spanish is second-hand but I am not aware of any minimal pairs where the tilde is the only distinction between two otherwise homonymous words. Accenture is definitely helpful but not a dealbreaker (but as you note, the existing characters could be mixed). -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- For every action there is an equal and opposite criticism. ----------------- From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Tue Aug 3 16:43:41 2010 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2010 14:43:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: DG 800/1200 questions - data cassettes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <557915.69193.qm@web80506.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I have bought data cassette tapes for an NCR digital tape unit on Ebay. >From this guy: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=180535980883&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT About 30 cents each or so. I don't know if this is the type that the DG systems need or not. Bob --- On Mon, 8/2/10, Geoffrey Reed wrote: > From: Geoffrey Reed > Subject: Re: DG 800/1200 questions > To: "cctalk" , "Joost van de Griek" > Date: Monday, August 2, 2010, 7:16 PM > On 8/2/10 5:03 PM, "Joost van de > Griek" > wrote: > > > On 2 August 2010 20:32, Tony Duell > wrote: > > > >> AFAIK apart from that notch, they are mechanically > the same -- same > >> positieond of spools, capstan holes, head access > hole, etc. Same design > >> of spool/hub. Same position of the write-protect > hole. I don't think > >> there were any mirros for optical sensorts in the > data cassetes either, > >> but they may well have detected the clear leader > by reflecitons off the > >> cassette shell, so only light-coloured cassettes > would work. > > > > Well, I've definitely seen black streamer cassettes > (being offered). > > What I meant was, they might have been engineered to a > higher standard > > than your average audio cassette. > > > > .tsooJ > > > > /me hangs head in shame... > > About 20 years ago I had a bunch of audio recorded on old > data cassettes and > gave them all away about 10 years ago. > > > From cclist at sydex.com Tue Aug 3 17:14:36 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2010 15:14:36 -0700 Subject: Mystery print drum In-Reply-To: <201008032132.o73LWpgm014536@floodgap.com> References: <20100803142156.B77280@shell.lmi.net> from Fred Cisin at "Aug 3, 10 02:28:20 pm", <201008032132.o73LWpgm014536@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <4C58325C.1963.16B117E@cclist.sydex.com> Does no one here do the daily Cryptoquote in the newspaper? If you do, you already realize that, regardless of the Linotype keyboard, letter frequency in English is highly variable, depending on the sample used. About all that can be said is that E is the most frequently-occurring letter in the English language. After that, the also-ran slots are up for grabs. See, for example: http://www.atlas-games.com/pdf_storage/lh_frequencies.pdf So it's quite likely that the positions on the print drum were determined by an independent analysis of a sample text. --Chuck From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Tue Aug 3 17:15:05 2010 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2010 23:15:05 +0100 Subject: Anyone want up to 3 MicroVAX 3100 Model 30s Message-ID: <001801cb3359$54c28050$fe4780f0$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> I have 3 MicroVAX 3100 Model 30s given to me by someone who is leaving the country and could not take them with him. I took them rather than see them discarded. They each have 8Mb onboard memory. They do not have any disks and the cover on the storage bay is missing. One of them has a little bit of damage to the rear plastic panel. I cleaned out all the dust and powered them up, they all booted to the console prompt just fine. They are in Greater Manchester, England. Regards Rob From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Tue Aug 3 17:38:38 2010 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2010 23:38:38 +0100 Subject: Anyone want up to 3 MicroVAX 3100 Model 30s In-Reply-To: <001801cb3359$54c28050$fe4780f0$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> References: <001801cb3359$54c28050$fe4780f0$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <003301cb335c$9f7fc5f0$de7f51d0$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Rob Jarratt > Sent: 03 August 2010 23:15 > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > Subject: Anyone want up to 3 MicroVAX 3100 Model 30s > > I have 3 MicroVAX 3100 Model 30s given to me by someone who is leaving > the > country and could not take them with him. I took them rather than see > them > discarded. They each have 8Mb onboard memory. They do not have any > disks and > the cover on the storage bay is missing. One of them has a little bit > of > damage to the rear plastic panel. > > I cleaned out all the dust and powered them up, they all booted to the > console prompt just fine. > > They are in Greater Manchester, England. > > Regards > > Rob And I forgot to say, they are of course free. Regards Rob From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Tue Aug 3 18:38:47 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Wed, 04 Aug 2010 00:38:47 +0100 Subject: Mystery print drum In-Reply-To: <4C588A8E.5000900@gmail.com> References: <201008032105.o73L5L50013022@floodgap.com> <20100803142156.B77280@shell.lmi.net> <4C588A8E.5000900@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4C58A887.7090407@philpem.me.uk> On 03/08/10 22:30, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > German? Not without the Eszett (the German letter that looks like a Greek 'beta'). -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Aug 3 18:44:28 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2010 16:44:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Mystery print drum In-Reply-To: <4C58A887.7090407@philpem.me.uk> from Philip Pemberton at "Aug 4, 10 00:38:47 am" Message-ID: <201008032344.o73NiSDD012570@floodgap.com> > > German? > > Not without the Eszett (the German letter that looks like a Greek 'beta'). Under current spelling rules, though, you could get away with 'ss' (I defer to Hans et al., of course). -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- If you're not very clever, you should be conciliatory. -- Benjamin Disraeli From cclist at sydex.com Tue Aug 3 19:31:34 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2010 17:31:34 -0700 Subject: Mystery print drum In-Reply-To: <201008032344.o73NiSDD012570@floodgap.com> References: <4C58A887.7090407@philpem.me.uk> from Philip Pemberton at "Aug 4, 10 00:38:47 am", <201008032344.o73NiSDD012570@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <4C585276.1225.1E8751A@cclist.sydex.com> Have a look at this page from the Sunday, December 15, 1935 Rochester Democrat and Chronicle under the column headed "Even The Crypt Has 'Don'ts'". Look familiar? Everyone doesn't agree on "Etaoin Shrdlu" http://tinyurl.com/294zc5o I wonder if the drum isn't from a GE or SDS-badged printer. --Chuck P.S. I heard it from Neil Lincoln that the "ETA Systems" name *was* based on ETAOIN SHRDLU. This was at about the time that ETA was just getting going, long before the first machine was built and the machine to be was still being referred to as the "GF-10". From stephane.tsacas at gmail.com Tue Aug 3 21:17:57 2010 From: stephane.tsacas at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?St=E9phane_Tsacas?=) Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2010 04:17:57 +0200 Subject: Lot of PDP-11/84 on ebay in Boston In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Jul 28, 2010 at 15:01, Richard wrote: > ... > No, he has the same picture of a group of 5 for each of the 5 auctions > selling of an individual machine. > > > BTW, if those were located in paris, France, I would have bought them > (less > > than 100 euros/pdp is a fair price here). > > Its 5x the price you are thinking. > You are right. The auctions ended tonight without any bid. -- Stephane http://updatedoften.blogspot.com From hachti at hachti.de Tue Aug 3 21:26:17 2010 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Wed, 04 Aug 2010 04:26:17 +0200 Subject: To scrap or not to scrap? Message-ID: <4C58CFC9.5040907@hachti.de> Hi, just followed the thread about ENIAC pieces and went to the website announcing a VCF southeast. There I saw announced sales of Arcnet and Token Ring adapters. That was the inspiration for this posting. * I came across a box of Token Ring and Arcnet stuff. Mostly NICs. * IBM PC AT and around * Sun Ultra 1 (or 5?) pizza boxes * 5.25" and 8" disk floppy drives and HDDs * Philips P4500 computer (or 5400?) Is there any interest in that kind of stuff? Might that be of sufficient quality (quantity isn't the problem) for a dedicated flea market event? Opinions very welcome. And btw I'm talking about stuff in Northern Germany... Regards, Philipp From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Aug 3 21:53:19 2010 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2010 21:53:19 -0500 Subject: Maker Faire review Message-ID: <201008040253.o742rO0d047381@billY.EZWIND.NET> I attended the Detroit Maker Faire this past weekend. Quite fun! Amazing and inspirational geekdom. A combination computer show, robot demo, tech consciousness raising, Scout jamboree and university recruiting fair. Vehicles with real flames. The crowd? Mom, Dad and the kids, regular geeks, geeks with tats and corsets. Cast your own cannonballs from scrap iron. Life-size Mouse Trap game. Guitars. Marshmallow guns. For a buck, you could buy a kit and sit down at a station to solder your own blinking LED merit badge, and dozens were doing that continuously. EepyBird did their Coke and Mentos show. Quite a few Arduino-powered gizmos. MakerBots with various heads like 3D printing with melted ABS plastic. There was one guy who'd made his own CPU from the ground up, with an Altair-era style front panel. About 250 booths, I believe. Overall, I thought it was quite inspirational. A wide range of ages and abilities in play, all enthusiastic about making things, learning to repair things, hacking in a playful way. I think any classic computer exhibit would be well-received. I don't think Detroit was as funky as it gets when the MF is in San Francisco. On the other hand, it took place in the parking lots of the Henry Ford Museum / Greenfield Village, so there was plenty to see in terms of old machinery. By some great coincidence, the kids watched a special on Nikola Tesla on the History Channel shortly before we went to Greenfield Village, so they could see through the endless pro-Edison material. While admiring the steam locomotive roundhouse, Air Force One flew overhead. Being in Detroit also gave me a chance to spend a little time with my old friend Sheldon Leemon ("Mapping the Commodore 64") and his wife. - John From trixter at oldskool.org Tue Aug 3 22:10:55 2010 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2010 22:10:55 -0500 Subject: Mispronouncing acronyms In-Reply-To: <4C56C98A.29425.F54A6F@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4C56C98A.29425.F54A6F@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4C58DA3F.3060706@oldskool.org> On 8/2/2010 3:35 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Does no one remember Veetock? (VTOC) I do, and occasionally still use it. My #1 pet peeve is GIF. I've always pronounced the g as in graphics, because that's what it stands for. When I hear people pronounce it as "jif" like the peanut butter, it raises my hackles. In a spot of idiocy, Unisys's actual paper says you're supposed to pronounce it "jif" and that's just stupid. It's not a "jraphics interchange format" and yet they stick to that like peanut butter: http://www.olsenhome.com/gif/ So yes, I am calling the inventors of GIF complete idiots. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From dkelvey at hotmail.com Tue Aug 3 22:29:34 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2010 20:29:34 -0700 Subject: intel MSD-720 In-Reply-To: <4C57E35C.26293.367642@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4C56FCF7.4020907@att.net>, , , <4C57E35C.26293.367642@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > From: cclist at sydex.com > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2010 09:37:32 -0700 > Subject: RE: intel MSD-720 > > On 3 Aug 2010 at 8:07, dwight elvey wrote: > > > It would be cool if it came with the cards as well. These can be > > plugged into any multibus as a disk controller. > > "Cool" is not a word that comes to mind. I recall that the digital > board ran very hot. > > Just funnin' with ya... > Hi Chuck The bitslice was Schottky ttl so it ran quite hot. The ROMs were ttl as well. So no joke, it definitely needed a fan. Programming the address controller for the 3000 series parts was like playing chess. Only there was different ways to move on the board map. Dwight Dwight From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Aug 3 22:40:00 2010 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2010 23:40:00 -0400 Subject: Mystery print drum In-Reply-To: <4C58A887.7090407@philpem.me.uk> References: <201008032105.o73L5L50013022@floodgap.com> <20100803142156.B77280@shell.lmi.net> <4C588A8E.5000900@gmail.com> <4C58A887.7090407@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4C58E110.3010202@gmail.com> Philip Pemberton wrote: >> German? > > Not without the Eszett (the German letter that looks like a Greek 'beta'). The eszet isn't really required. Neither, strictly speaking, are umlauts. Peace... Sridhar (I'm fluent in German, BTW.) From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Aug 3 22:47:15 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2010 20:47:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Maker Faire review In-Reply-To: <201008040253.o742rO0d047381@billY.EZWIND.NET> from John Foust at "Aug 3, 10 09:53:19 pm" Message-ID: <201008040347.o743lFob012600@floodgap.com> > While admiring the steam locomotive roundhouse, Air Force One > flew overhead. Being in Detroit also gave me a chance to spend > a little time with my old friend Sheldon Leemon ("Mapping the > Commodore 64") and his wife. Wow! Tell him that book is my practical Bible for Commodore programming. I use it more than the PRG. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- LOAD"STANDARD DISCLAIMER",8,1 ---------------------------------------------- From dkelvey at hotmail.com Tue Aug 3 22:52:44 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2010 20:52:44 -0700 Subject: retr0brite not so right? In-Reply-To: <4C588069.7050708@philpem.me.uk> References: ,<4C588069.7050708@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: > From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk > > On 02/08/10 19:36, Tony Duell wrote: > > Even if I had to spend it on classic computers, the Apple 1 would not be > > high up the list :-). > > Agreed. As I've said, I'd rather like a SYM-1, KIM-1 or AIM-65. Hi I've got all three. I even have one of the KTM-2 terminal boards for the SYM-1 and a disk board called FDC-1 ( a common name ). I've been meaning to put the bunch together to make a system. I've got a Jupiter Ace as well with the US video scan rate ( slower processor speed as well ). Dwight From jws at jwsss.com Mon Aug 2 17:54:48 2010 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2010 15:54:48 -0700 Subject: preserving computers (was: retr0brite not so right?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C574CB8.70103@jwsss.com> On 7/31/2010 5:16 PM, joe lobocki wrote: > so wait, how much vacuum would destroy something? I have a few things > sealed in Foodsaver bags, is this enough vaccum to do damage? > Evacuated bags really still leave the enclosed material at atmospheric pressure. The problem would arise if you had a piece of plastic in actual hard vacuum and the plastics and volatiles would gradually sublime into the surrounding. All that vacuum packing should do is ensure a very tight fit of the plastic to the stored object. I'd worry more about the stuff you have trapped inside, and whether the vacuum plastic enclosure is acid free, or is nonreactive with what you have stored. > On 7/31/10, Tony Duell wrote: > >>> So, everything needs to be in a vacuum in the dark? >>> >> I would think a vacuum would be a very bad idea. Plenty of things will >> outgass (and thus change their properties) in a moderate vacuum. >> >> -tony >> >> > > From philpem at philpem.me.uk Mon Aug 2 13:39:19 2010 From: philpem at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2010 19:39:19 +0100 Subject: OT? Tek 4014 emulator (tying Xterm to ttyS0) Message-ID: <4C5710D7.3050307@philpem.me.uk> Hi guys, I'm building some hardware that spits out debug info on a regular basis, and I figured it'd be useful to have this data graphed on-screen. Making it keep track of the last "N" samples and draw them wouldn't be hard, except adding an LCD display is out of the question (takes up too many I/O pins). On the other hand, I have a perfectly good serial port which runs at a decent rate of speed (115200 baud), and Xterm can emulate a Tektronix 4014 vector terminal. Perfect... except I can't see an easy way to tie Xterm to a serial port instead of having it run an application. There's nothing in the manpage (admittedly I haven't read it all, just grepped it for a few obvious terms) and 'apropos' isn't finding anything useful. I've been told that tip(1) on BSD will do what I want, I just can't find anything similar on Linux... Thanks, -- Phil. philpem at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From bqt at softjar.se Mon Aug 2 19:37:38 2010 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2010 02:37:38 +0200 Subject: Mispronouncing acronyms In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C5764D2.5060302@softjar.se> Jason T wrote: > Surely covered on this list before, but I will re-open the box: > > SQL. > > I say "ess kyu ell." I rarely hear "sickle," although that makes > some sense. I *always* hear "sequel," which requires some more > imagination. It's only a hunch, but I suspect this originated from > the dark halls of Redmond. Nowadays, with wikipedia and all, one would think that people would actually check things up... :-) See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sql, under the history section... I'd say "sequel" is almost more correct than "ess kyu ell". :-) But of course everyone is free to pronounce it any way they see fit. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From bqt at softjar.se Mon Aug 2 19:41:33 2010 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2010 02:41:33 +0200 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 84, Issue 5 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C5765BD.8000601@softjar.se> Philip Pemberton wrote: > Hi guys, > > I'm building some hardware that spits out debug info on a regular basis, > and I figured it'd be useful to have this data graphed on-screen. Making > it keep track of the last "N" samples and draw them wouldn't be hard, > except adding an LCD display is out of the question (takes up too many > I/O pins). > > On the other hand, I have a perfectly good serial port which runs at a > decent rate of speed (115200 baud), and Xterm can emulate a Tektronix > 4014 vector terminal. Perfect... except I can't see an easy way to tie > Xterm to a serial port instead of having it run an application. xterm -e kermit However, this also begs the question, what is plotting the the data, if you just output debug information? Some application I would assume...? Why not have that application written on your linux system, and run it inside an xterm, and have the application read the data from the serial port, and then output the approriate stuff to control the window? > There's nothing in the manpage (admittedly I haven't read it all, just > grepped it for a few obvious terms) and 'apropos' isn't finding anything > useful. I've been told that tip(1) on BSD will do what I want, I just > can't find anything similar on Linux... tip probably don't exist on Linux, but all you need to know is that tip is a program to connect yourself out on a serial port. Any other program that do the same thing works equally well. And I have yet to see any program that works better for this kind of thing than kermit. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From csquared3 at tx.rr.com Mon Aug 2 23:40:12 2010 From: csquared3 at tx.rr.com (Charlie Carothers) Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2010 23:40:12 -0500 Subject: Mystery print drum In-Reply-To: <4C55E9CF.5920.3283BF5@cclist.sydex.com> References: , , <4C55E9CF.5920.3283BF5@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4C579DAC.9070102@tx.rr.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 1 Aug 2010 at 23:39, Mike Loewen wrote: > >> On Sun, 1 Aug 2010, Mike Loewen wrote: >> >>> I have an unidentified drum from a line printer, 120 columns and >>> 64 >>> characters. The characters are the same on each horizontal line, >>> and the drum is one solid piece. Can anyone hazard a guess as to >>> which printer this might fit? There are no part numbers on it. >> Oops, that should be 160 columns, not 120. > > Univac and CDC both had drum printers in the 60s/70s with 6-bit > character sets. > > --Chuck > > I'm pretty sure the Data Products ones we used had 6-bit character sets as well. However ISTR they were only 132 columns, though DP could well have made 160 column ones as well. Later, Charlie C. From c.murray.mccullough at gmail.com Tue Aug 3 16:50:20 2010 From: c.murray.mccullough at gmail.com (Murray McCullough) Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2010 17:50:20 -0400 Subject: Aug 3 1977 The TRS-80 was launched. Message-ID: I remember the days after quite well. Being from Canada it wasn't available here right away. I went to Rochester, N.Y. to see it at a computer store. Boy, did this computer geeks eyes light up! I did eventually get one that summer. Murray-- From chrise at pobox.com Tue Aug 3 20:11:20 2010 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2010 20:11:20 -0500 Subject: Mispronouncing acronyms In-Reply-To: References: <4C56D730.24720.12A9919@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20100804011120.GV8300@n0jcf.net> Are those little diodes that emit light called L-E-Ds or are they leads? You know, like you put in a mechanical pencil? The plural of Pb... A single one is a led-- like what you did when you took the horse to water. Drives me nuts. -- Chris Elmquist From csquared3 at tx.rr.com Tue Aug 3 20:41:36 2010 From: csquared3 at tx.rr.com (Charlie Carothers) Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2010 20:41:36 -0500 Subject: Mystery print drum In-Reply-To: <20100803131320.K77280@shell.lmi.net> References: , , <4C55E9CF.5920.3283BF5@cclist.sydex.com> <4C568C6A.3061.6858E@cclist.sydex.com> <4C57636D.1040709@gmail.com> <20100802173934.V35000@shell.lmi.net> <20100803131320.K77280@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4C58C550.2070408@tx.rr.com> Fred Cisin wrote: >>>>> The 64 character rows are laid out, thusly: >>>>> 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 . 8 , 9 - E T A I S O N H R D L U C M F W Y P G >>>>> 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 . 8 , 9 - V B K J $ * Q X Z # / + : = ' ( ) > < >>> When using frequency of usage for probabilities in code breaking, the most >>> common sequence (from most common letter to least) is often >>> E T A I O N S H R D L U > > On Tue, 3 Aug 2010, Rich Alderson wrote: >> That's for English. Other Latin-alphabet languages will have different >> frequencies. > > Absolutely! > > I think that French has 'L' near the top. > > Can you think of what language has 'S' a few characters closer to the top > than English? > > Is there any significance to which characters are NOT present? > (such as '?' ';') It was not intended to print C code listings? I'm just trying to be funny of course, and you'd miss a lot more than just the ';'. However, if you're like me and pretty much loathe the ternary operator, you might not miss the '?' at all... Later, Charlie C. From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Aug 3 22:53:57 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2010 20:53:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Mystery print drum In-Reply-To: <4C58325C.1963.16B117E@cclist.sydex.com> References: <20100803142156.B77280@shell.lmi.net> from Fred Cisin at "Aug 3, 10 02:28:20 pm", <201008032132.o73LWpgm014536@floodgap.com> <4C58325C.1963.16B117E@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20100803205302.C91775@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 3 Aug 2010, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Does no one here do the daily Cryptoquote in the newspaper? > If you do, you already realize that, regardless of the Linotype > keyboard, letter frequency in English is highly variable, depending > on the sample used. About all that can be said is that E is the most > frequently-occurring letter in the English language. After that, the > also-ran slots are up for grabs. See, for example: > http://www.atlas-games.com/pdf_storage/lh_frequencies.pdf > So it's quite likely that the positions on the print drum were > determined by an independent analysis of a sample text. That's why I said "most common sequence" From cclist at sydex.com Tue Aug 3 23:16:24 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2010 21:16:24 -0700 Subject: Mispronouncing acronyms In-Reply-To: <20100804011120.GV8300@n0jcf.net> References: <4C56D730.24720.12A9919@cclist.sydex.com>, , <20100804011120.GV8300@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <4C588728.5361.2B64C0D@cclist.sydex.com> On 3 Aug 2010 at 20:11, Chris Elmquist wrote: > > Are those little diodes that emit light called L-E-Ds or are they > leads? You know, like you put in a mechanical pencil? The plural of > Pb... > > A single one is a led-- like what you did when you took the horse to > water. Always have said it "Ellie Dee". A good name for a female offspring. Her twin sister can be "Elsie Dee". --Chuck From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Aug 3 23:47:27 2010 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2010 22:47:27 -0600 Subject: Mystery print drum In-Reply-To: <4C58C550.2070408@tx.rr.com> References: , , <4C55E9CF.5920.3283BF5@cclist.sydex.com> <4C568C6A.3061.6858E@cclist.sydex.com> <4C57636D.1040709@gmail.com> <20100802173934.V35000@shell.lmi.net> <20100803131320.K77280@shell.lmi.net> <4C58C550.2070408@tx.rr.com> Message-ID: <4C58F0DF.7080108@jetnet.ab.ca> Charlie Carothers wrote: > I'm just trying to be funny of course, and you'd miss a lot more than > just the ';'. However, if you're like me and pretty much loathe the > ternary operator, you might not miss the '?' at all... > Later, > Charlie C. I DON'T MISS THE BANG BANG BANG OF THE DRUM HAMMERS > > BEN From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Aug 3 23:57:34 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2010 21:57:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Mystery print drum In-Reply-To: <4C58F0DF.7080108@jetnet.ab.ca> References: , , <4C55E9CF.5920.3283BF5@cclist.sydex.com> <4C568C6A.3061.6858E@cclist.sydex.com> <4C57636D.1040709@gmail.com> <20100802173934.V35000@shell.lmi.net> <20100803131320.K77280@shell.lmi.net> <4C58C550.2070408@tx.rr.com> <4C58F0DF.7080108@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <20100803215623.K91775@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 3 Aug 2010, Ben wrote: > I DON'T MISS THE BANG BANG BANG OF THE DRUM HAMMERS and we spoke in all upper case in those days, just to be heard over the din (D.I.N.?) From silent700 at gmail.com Wed Aug 4 00:46:29 2010 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2010 00:46:29 -0500 Subject: Xyplex 1600 config software Message-ID: I am getting deep into the mysterious config of this terminal server, googling and banging the desk, and I find out that there is a Windows (or possibly others OSes?) GUI config tool out there somewhere for it, know as "Focalpoint" (or "Focal Point.") Anyone know if it's available any more? Also, anyone expert in the configuration of this beast and wouldn't mind some n00b questions via direct email, I'd be much obliged to hear from you. -- jht From pontus at Update.UU.SE Wed Aug 4 01:18:22 2010 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2010 08:18:22 +0200 Subject: Xyplex 1600 config software In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20100804061822.GA25694@Update.UU.SE> On Wed, Aug 04, 2010 at 12:46:29AM -0500, Jason T wrote: > I am getting deep into the mysterious config of this terminal server, > googling and banging the desk, and I find out that there is a Windows > (or possibly others OSes?) GUI config tool out there somewhere for it, > know as "Focalpoint" (or "Focal Point.") Anyone know if it's > available any more? > > Also, anyone expert in the configuration of this beast and wouldn't > mind some n00b questions via direct email, I'd be much obliged to hear > from you. > > -- > jht I have one as well, have not actually used it. You have obviously found this: http://www.gno.org/~gdr/xyplex/ /P From silent700 at gmail.com Wed Aug 4 01:40:39 2010 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2010 01:40:39 -0500 Subject: Xyplex 1600 config software In-Reply-To: <20100804061822.GA25694@Update.UU.SE> References: <20100804061822.GA25694@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: On Wed, Aug 4, 2010 at 1:18 AM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > I have one as well, have not actually used it. > > You have obviously found this: http://www.gno.org/~gdr/xyplex/ Yes - that has helped me greatly up to this point. Aside from a few tips and tricks, not a whole lot else out there. From rodsmallwood at btconnect.com Wed Aug 4 02:44:07 2010 From: rodsmallwood at btconnect.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2010 08:44:07 +0100 Subject: Pronouncing acronyms (was Re: DEC acronyms) In-Reply-To: References: from "RodSmallwood" at Aug 3, 10 05:34:19 am Message-ID: Hi Yes I probably could trace the circuit out. But it's always worth asking as you never know who's got what out there. Regards ? Rod Smallwood ? ? -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tony Duell Sent: 03 August 2010 20:31 To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Pronouncing acronyms (was Re: DEC acronyms) > > > 1. I once nearly took a job with them > 2. I thought they were called Ball as opposed to Balls. You are probslby right... > 3. I have several of the Ball VT100 boards referred to but lack a = > circuit > diagram to fix them. It would be a Ball diagram as opposed to a DEC one. > > 4. No, the circuit is not in any of the DEC VT100 manuals. Hang on a second...I know from your positings here that you are clueful.... And the VT100 video board -- any version -- is pretty simple. So why not trace out the scheamtic. It wouldn't take more than an afternoon... I think all the versions of VT100 video board that I've seen use the same flyback transfoemr (separately mounted on the chssis) which is a great help. Figuring out the windings of the flyback is a pain, becuase they have such a low DC resistnace that the show as a dead short on most ohmmeter. Desodler any low-resistnace compoennts from the PCB (inductoctors, transfofmers, fuses, etc ) before you start, and then start tracing connections with an ohmmeter. You amy find much fo the ciruitry is similar to one of the boards in the manual, which is a help. If I can mange to do machines with a couple of hundred ICs, then I am sure yoy can manage the VT100 video board... -tony From quapla at xs4all.nl Wed Aug 4 03:17:47 2010 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (E. Groenenberg) Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2010 10:17:47 +0200 Subject: Looking for a RK05F faceplate Message-ID: <3972c0fdf12bb61e57d81663c0df4605.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Hello All, I'm looking for an RK05F faceplate. Anyone able to help me with one? Thanks, Ed -- Dit is een HTML vrije email / This is an HTML free email. From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Wed Aug 4 05:42:49 2010 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2010 12:42:49 +0200 (CEST) Subject: DG 800/1200 questions In-Reply-To: <4C573E1A.30509@hachti.de> References: <42E490EB6EDD4A69A1AC3A8C992D566E@OSA.local> <4C55AEEB.6080404@bitsavers.org> <4C573E1A.30509@hachti.de> Message-ID: On Mon, 2 Aug 2010, Philipp Hachtmann wrote: > I for example have a DG Nova 2 and nearly *NO* information about it. All I > know is that the PSU and lights are OK. And that I can play around a bit. I > have no reliable documentation. And no clue how to hook up a TTY or load > software and all the like... > > That might sound a bit stupid... but... I got frustrated by the lack of > *everything* for my Nova. All I have for the machine is plenty of core > memory... > > Why is DG stuff not put onto Bitsavers? Hmm, what is wrong with the DG stuff that is actually on Bitsavers? I can find programming information, schematics of the Nova 2, programming guides, bootstrap loader listings etc. Or did I miss something you may have told me some time ago? Christian From ragooman at comcast.net Wed Aug 4 06:45:45 2010 From: ragooman at comcast.net (Dan Roganti) Date: Wed, 04 Aug 2010 07:45:45 -0400 Subject: Greetings fellow classiccmp'ers In-Reply-To: <2F51056DCBCE433F851B5D847E2320EC@OSA.local> References: <2F51056DCBCE433F851B5D847E2320EC@OSA.local> Message-ID: <4C5952E9.4050505@comcast.net> Jay West wrote: > > I'd like to update the classiccmp server (OS, apache, mysql, & mailman) soon. To aid in that transition, I will probably temporarily migrate all the sites & list to one of our clusters, load the classiccmp server from scratch, and then migrate everything back. I'll keep the list posted when I start down that path. > is there a RSS feed which I could use a reader to check cctalk mail ? I didn't notice one yet, but maybe I was looking in the wrong place. =Dan http://www.vintagecomputer.net/ragooman/ From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Wed Aug 4 08:47:53 2010 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 04 Aug 2010 08:47:53 -0500 Subject: Greetings fellow classiccmp'ers In-Reply-To: <2F51056DCBCE433F851B5D847E2320EC@OSA.local> References: <2F51056DCBCE433F851B5D847E2320EC@OSA.local> Message-ID: <4C596F89.30806@gmail.com> Jay West wrote: > After a long hiatus from the hobby, I'm making some attempts to get back > into it. Welcome back! I'm not reading the list as much as I used to, either - hit over 5k of unread messages yesterday. Collection (frustratingly) still halfway around the world; I expect I'll get back into the list more once I do get things moved here... cheers Jules From legalize at xmission.com Wed Aug 4 08:46:38 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 04 Aug 2010 07:46:38 -0600 Subject: Mispronouncing acronyms In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 03 Aug 2010 22:10:55 -0500. <4C58DA3F.3060706@oldskool.org> Message-ID: In article <4C58DA3F.3060706 at oldskool.org>, Jim Leonard writes: > On 8/2/2010 3:35 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > Does no one remember Veetock? (VTOC) > > I do, and occasionally still use it. > > My #1 pet peeve is GIF. I've always pronounced the g as in graphics, > because that's what it stands for. When I hear people pronounce it as > "jif" like the peanut butter, it raises my hackles. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From cclist at sydex.com Wed Aug 4 10:21:11 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 04 Aug 2010 08:21:11 -0700 Subject: Electronic Design article on CRTs Message-ID: <4C5922F7.9843.855954@cclist.sydex.com> Mentions the Tek 4051 among other things: http://electronicdesign.com/article/analog-and-mixed- signal/farewell_crts.aspx?nl=1 --Chuck From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Aug 4 10:57:19 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2010 11:57:19 -0400 Subject: Aug 3 1977 The TRS-80 was launched. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 8/3/10, Murray McCullough wrote: > I remember the days after quite well. Being from Canada it wasn't > available here right away. I went to Rochester, N.Y. to see it at a > computer store. > Boy, did this computer geeks eyes light up! I did eventually get one > that summer. I grew up a block away from Ohio State University which happened to have two Radio Shacks in proximity - one 4 blocks from my house, one a bit over a mile away on the same street. When the TRS-80 came out, I used to alternate between the Radio Shacks, pecking away for as long as they'd let me. We never did get a TRS-80 (we went with a 32K PET instead, which I still have), but I did get just the TRS-80 manual (which I also still have). I read that book several times over during our summer holidays when visiting relatives out of state, itching to get back to a Radio Shack to try out what I'd just learned. Thinking back on the state of the state in 1977/1978, before we bought a machine, I had limited but no-cost access to the three dominant new consumer platforms - the Apple II at The Micro Center (long before they got large they were a local storefront a few miles from my house), the TRS-80 at Radio Shack, and the original chicklet-keyboard PET at the main library downtown. When it came time to buy a computer, the Apple II was clearly too expensive for us, leaving the choice down to a TRS-80 vs a PET. I think "features" like the expansion interface (and its notoriously bad edge connector) and the chunky graphics (with no rich character set to enhance quarter or sixth-cell blobs) were what pushed me to choose the PET over the TRS-80. Perhaps if the TRS-80 had been 80-col vs 64-col, that might have been enough to tip the balance the other way. Choosing between 40-col with PET "graphics" and 64-col with ASCII and fat blocks wasn't so difficult. I do have to wonder where my early wanderings might have gone if I'd learned Z-80 machine code before 6502 machine code and what might have been my second machine (the progression that happened was PET->VIC-20->C-64->Amiga) -ethan From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 4 12:38:58 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2010 18:38:58 +0100 (BST) Subject: scammed an HP 98788A b & w monitor In-Reply-To: from "Tony Duell" at Aug 3, 10 06:49:19 pm Message-ID: > > > > > not totally sure of it's overall health, but it kind of works thus far. > > > > apparently was used on an HP-UX w/s @ AT & T (so says the sticker). > > > > an unusual bugger. Unique amongst my jumbo monitors. > > > > Now only need the HP-UX station to go along w/it... > > If you've not already looked thrre, you might find some information, such > as which machines it was used with, on http://www.hpmuseum.net/ I;ve now checkedm and there is something, namely a CE manual for this monitor. It's not very techncial, but it's probably worth a look. It's listed under the HP98786 monitor (which seems to be similar, with a different CRT size), under the Category Accessories for the HP900/300 machines. Actually, I find the eaiset way to find things on that site is to follow the 'docuemtnation' link from the homepage and look down the complete list of manuals... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 4 13:00:08 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2010 19:00:08 +0100 (BST) Subject: Mispronouncing acronyms In-Reply-To: <20100804011120.GV8300@n0jcf.net> from "Chris Elmquist" at Aug 3, 10 08:11:20 pm Message-ID: > > > Are those little diodes that emit light called L-E-Ds or are they leads? > You know, like you put in a mechanical pencil? The plural of Pb... > > A single one is a led-- like what you did when you took the horse > to water. I always say 'Ell Eee Dee' and 'Ell Eee Dees'. Never (or perhaps very rarely) 'Led' But as somebody once remarked 'You can take a horse to water, but a self-illuminating display must be LED' -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 4 12:54:22 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2010 18:54:22 +0100 (BST) Subject: retr0brite not so right? In-Reply-To: <4C588069.7050708@philpem.me.uk> from "Philip Pemberton" at Aug 3, 10 09:47:37 pm Message-ID: > > On 02/08/10 19:36, Tony Duell wrote: > > Even if I had to spend it on classic computers, the Apple 1 would not be > > high up the list :-). > > Agreed. As I've said, I'd rather like a SYM-1, KIM-1 or AIM-65. But > given that I've talked to a couple of people who said "yeah, I've got > loads of those in a warehouse, you can have one" and then dropped off > the face of the earth... I'm not hopeful. Als I know the feeling. I've missed out on 3 HP1000s and an Acorn A680 due to similar occurances. Oh well, life goes on... > > Actually at this point I'd settle for getting my Jupiter Ace motherboard > back from Lee Davison. Again, chance close to nil. Even getting a bare > Ace PCB or a broken Ace to fix would be nice... I'd build up the bare Alas I only have one Ace, and I am keeping it :-). > PCB on the grounds that: > - It'll be a fun evening's work Well, if you like fitting 1k resisotrs... In case you don;t know, the Ace has a vile 'myltiplexer' circuit consisting of a totem pole TTL output (say from a counter) warkened by having a 1k resistor in series contending with a 3-state output (say on an address buffer). That's how it allows both the video counter chain and the CPU to access video RAM. The Ace claimed ot hgave 3K of RAM. While there are, indeed, 6 off 2114s onthe PCB,it's 1K of program/data RAM, 1K of video RAM, and 1K of character generator (there is no character generator ROM, the character generator RAM is loaded from the system ROM at power-up). Calling that a 3L machine is somewhat dishonest... > - I know other people have bare PCBs and that they're not "one-off" > rare (AIUI a box of them was sold off when Jupiter Cantab went bust) As I understood it, the stuff all went to a company called 'Boldfield Limited Computing',sho then sold it on (including complete, working Aces, that's where mine came from). A bit later, the remains were sold off at low prices. I sitll have a few games tapes somewhere. What I don't have is a bare PCB... > - As a bare board, it's as useful and as entertaining as a brick. > Build it up and it becomes a whole lot more interesting. Err, of course. What else would you do with a bare Ace PCB? > > > Err, the Apple 1 is a single-board machine :-) > > Yes, but not the sort of machine I was thinking of (a "microcomputer > trainer" type thing) I actually wonder what the real difference is... > > > Hmm, we will ahve to agree to disagree, I think. I regard the Apple ][ as > > one of the worst designs ever because it's such a minimal parts count > > (IMHO a few more chips would ahve made it a lot better). > > In some ways it is a completely evil design. Reverse engineering it is > diabolically hard, and I think some parts of the design must have been > conceived by a madman or a masochist. But getting the parts count down > that far? Cool. No, I disagree. I have never been a great lover of minimal parts count designs. For me, the more hardware. the merrier :-) > > > But I feel the > > BBC Micro is one of the best (if not _the_ best) 8 bitters. A very > > elegant design... > > The BBC is a lovely design. From an expandability point of view alone > it's something that -- even today -- is worth keeping on or near an > electronics workbench with a User-Port-to-breadboard cable. And if you > need a few more I/Os, there's always the 1MHz Bus. Why do you think I have an ACW (== BBC B+ with 32016 coprocesosr, colour monitor, hard and floppy drives, all in one box) to hand? > > They make terrific logic pattern generators, the BASIC has full floating > point and a good range of math operators (I don't have a full list to > hand, but IIRC it at least has sine, cosine and tangent, and possible > arc-tangent as well) and the machine itself is built like a Chieftain ATN is certainly there... I would have to grab the (excellent) user guide to look for all the others. But for what I do, the built-in assembler is more useufl, actually... > tank. Plus if something goes wrong, it's all LSTTL or easily obtainable > parts (aside from a ULA or two and possibly the SAA5050). Indeed... And schematics are trivial to get. It's a very nice machine to work on... > > Well, as long as you had a supply of spare 100nF X2 capacitors for the > power supply filter. Those go pop at an alarming rate, and have a rotten > tendency of caking the innards of the machine with brown ichor when they do. Ah, the anitsocial capacitor problem. I've never seen it in a Beeb (but then the Beeb I use most is the ACW whiohc has a totaly different PSU), but I've seen it often enough in other machines. I rememebr when I was sorting out myu HP981, I left the monitor on and poweed down the CPU box to correct something. A few minotues later (by chance, as it turned out), the monitor went bang and emitted magic smoke. My instnat thought was a problem in the horizontal output stage. I powered down at once and removed the casing (non-trivial on that monitor...) and was relieved to find the only fault was that one of the filter capacitors had exploded (metalised foil hanging out of the side). Of course I replaced the lot... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 4 13:07:01 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2010 19:07:01 +0100 (BST) Subject: Maker Faire review In-Reply-To: <201008040253.o742rO0d047381@billY.EZWIND.NET> from "John Foust" at Aug 3, 10 09:53:19 pm Message-ID: > > > I attended the Detroit Maker Faire this past weekend. Quite fun! Sounds excellent to me. Anything which encourages peope to grab a screwdriver and start tinkering can only be a Good Thing! -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 4 13:12:38 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2010 19:12:38 +0100 (BST) Subject: Pronouncing acronyms (was Re: DEC acronyms) In-Reply-To: from "Rod Smallwood" at Aug 4, 10 08:44:07 am Message-ID: > > Hi=20 > Yes I probably could trace the circuit out.=20 I am sure you could. > But it's always worth asking as you never know who's got what out there. True enough.. But actually, I suspect in the time it's taken to send the messages, you could have made a good start on a schematic... It doens't apply here, but I've come to the point where it's quicker for me to trace out a scheamtic than to do battle with teh so-called 'customer suppoer' for many procducts. Same with warrenties, actually, Much of the time I find it quicker and less hassle to fix the darn thing myself than to jump through hoops to get a free repair... -tony From jfoust at threedee.com Wed Aug 4 13:47:15 2010 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Wed, 04 Aug 2010 13:47:15 -0500 Subject: Maker Faire review In-Reply-To: References: <201008040253.o742rO0d047381@billY.EZWIND.NET> Message-ID: <201008041847.o74IlheR091691@billY.EZWIND.NET> At 01:07 PM 8/4/2010, Tony Duell wrote: >> >> I attended the Detroit Maker Faire this past weekend. Quite fun! > >Sounds excellent to me. Anything which encourages peope to grab a >screwdriver and start tinkering can only be a Good Thing! Don't worry, Tony, I heard your voice there. You were walking around noticing that some items can't be truly repaired, that back in your day computers had discrete replaceable components and a schematic was included, and that they weren't using a proper screwdriver, and that you weren't rich enough to afford cheap tools. :-) In other words, you would've loved it! - John From keithvz at verizon.net Wed Aug 4 14:02:47 2010 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith M) Date: Wed, 04 Aug 2010 15:02:47 -0400 Subject: Maker Faire review In-Reply-To: <201008040253.o742rO0d047381@billY.EZWIND.NET> References: <201008040253.o742rO0d047381@billY.EZWIND.NET> Message-ID: <4C59B957.1090509@verizon.net> On 8/3/2010 10:53 PM, John Foust wrote: > > I attended the Detroit Maker Faire this past weekend. Quite fun! > Overall, I thought it was quite inspirational. John, Thanks for posting the review. I'm in Pittsburgh which isn't too far from Detroit. I got back not long ago from HOPE in NYC and I too found it inspirational. I see people producing great things. And having a high level mastery of technical understanding, skills, etc. It really is a motivator for me within my own projects. I feel empowered to make my projects better. Thanks. Keith From keithvz at verizon.net Wed Aug 4 14:23:00 2010 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith M) Date: Wed, 04 Aug 2010 15:23:00 -0400 Subject: Mispronouncing acronyms In-Reply-To: <4C577605.2070700@atarimuseum.com> References: <20100802204619.C48C6A5826C@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <4C577605.2070700@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <4C59BE14.7010700@verizon.net> On 8/2/2010 9:51 PM, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > or worse - an Atari ST vs Amiga flame war ;-) haha. I remember this one quite well. :) Never participated myself, of course. :) Keith From binarydinosaurs at gmail.com Wed Aug 4 15:59:46 2010 From: binarydinosaurs at gmail.com (Adrian Graham) Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2010 21:59:46 +0100 Subject: Mispronouncing acronyms In-Reply-To: References: <20100803105747.1C10E1E0226@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: On 3 August 2010 21:20, Rich Alderson wrote: > > The cop car terminals looked pretty slick for 1980. Almost like mobile > PLATO > > terminals with their orange plasma display. Maybe it was an actual > > Motorola product? Of course Motorola and PLATO were also suburban > > Chicago/Illinois tie-ins :-). And the mall that gets destroyed, I have > > been told, was (previous to being a mall) one of the Teletype factories > > in Skokie. > > Actually, it was a defunct, bankrupt shopping mall in a southwest suburb, > standing in for a non-existent shopping mall in the northwest suburb of > Park Ridge.[1] > > Dixie Square Mall in Harvey, Illinois: *http://tinyurl.com/34dhq65 (google maps) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dixie_Square_Mall * :) -- adrian/witchy Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest home computer collection? www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Wed Aug 4 19:06:49 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Thu, 05 Aug 2010 01:06:49 +0100 Subject: retr0brite not so right? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C5A0099.7070809@philpem.me.uk> On 04/08/10 18:54, Tony Duell wrote: > Als I know the feeling. I've missed out on 3 HP1000s and an Acorn A680 > due to similar occurances. Oh well, life goes on... A680... that's the RISC iX box, isn't it?? > Alas I only have one Ace, and I am keeping it :-). Adrian Graham (witchy) sent me some hi-res scans of the PCB ages ago. I've been meaning to make a PCB from them, but I need to look into ways to get a good B/W image of the track layout. Thresholding the image doesn't quite work... > Well, if you like fitting 1k resisotrs... In case you don;t know, the Ace > has a vile 'myltiplexer' circuit consisting of a totem pole TTL output > (say from a counter) warkened by having a 1k resistor in series > contending with a 3-state output (say on an address buffer). That's how > it allows both the video counter chain and the CPU to access video RAM. Ugh, nasty. > Err, of course. What else would you do with a bare Ace PCB? Some people (not me) would frame it and put it on the wall...... >> Yes, but not the sort of machine I was thinking of (a "microcomputer >> trainer" type thing) > > I actually wonder what the real difference is... A ROM monitor instead of BASIC, and an edge-connector with all the bus lines on it :) Although the AIM65 bucks that trend; AIUI it has a built in ROM BASIC *and* the monitor, and the Multitech Micro-Professor certainly had a BASIC ROM available. > No, I disagree. I have never been a great lover of minimal parts count > designs. For me, the more hardware. the merrier :-) There's a breaking point though. When I'm programming PLDs, I generally don't give a hoot how big the logic equation set becomes (as long as it fits into the PLD). If I'm wiring up hardware, the "must fit on a Roth Elektronik Eurocard-size padboard" rule applies. I try to avoid straddling projects across multiple pad-boards; my 6502 card can boot standalone, but it's not much use without the UART or some form of hex keyboard and display (TIL311 to the rescue!). [BBC micro] > ATN is certainly there... I would have to grab the (excellent) user guide > to look for all the others. But for what I do, the built-in assembler is > more useufl, actually... Another point I missed :) > Indeed... And schematics are trivial to get. It's a very nice machine to > work on... "Google is your friend" :) > Ah, the anitsocial capacitor problem. I've never seen it in a Beeb (but > then the Beeb I use most is the ACW whiohc has a totaly different PSU), I had it in my Master 128 (it filled the room with smoke) and in a Solartron 7150Plus 6-digit bench DMM. The filter module in the 7150 actually caught fire (!) and I called the company and asked if they knew why it might do that, and if they had any distributors who'd sell 1-offs (RS wanted ?49 and in any case were downright rude last time I tried to place an order with them). Their response: "We'll send you another filter module." The 7150+ is still in service -- I've got a full service manual, but $DEITY help me if the Hitachi 68B03 mask-ROM micro on the analog board jacks it. Mask ROM and it's soldered to the board. Ewwww. If it wasn't soldered down I'd stick it in a breadboard and dump its contents to disc... (it has a 'test mode' which maps an external EPROM into the reset vector, and moves the internal ROM higher up in the memory map) > the monitor went bang and emitted magic smoke. My instnat thought was a > problem in the horizontal output stage. I powered down at once and > removed the casing (non-trivial on that monitor...) and was relieved to > find the only fault was that one of the filter capacitors had exploded > (metalised foil hanging out of the side). Of course I replaced the lot... One of the few occasions when shotgun replacement is justified. The other one is when you've got a machine on the bench which is showing symptoms of Capacitor Plague. In that case I'd sketch out part locations (and locations/values of nearby parts), remove the old parts, and give the surrounding area a good soak in flux remover (or IPA) and a decent scrub. Maybe a trip in the dishwasher if it was particularly mucky... Then the new parts go in, and any track breaks are repaired. At least the hot-air gun makes it (reasonably) easy to remove the SMDs. A pre-heater would make it even easier, but unfortunately the budget won't stretch that far at the moment... -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From schoedel at kw.igs.net Wed Aug 4 19:32:00 2010 From: schoedel at kw.igs.net (Kevin Schoedel) Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2010 20:32:00 -0400 Subject: DG 800/1200 questions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 7:21 pm +0100 2010/08/02, Tony Duell wrote: >> > But alas I have no idea where you'd get the casssettes now. >> These units are in mint shape, was hoping they wouldn't be paperweights :\ > >How many tapes do you need? It's possible there are a few around in >people's junk boxes, if you need <10 or so... If there's reason to believe they'd work, I have around a hundred TU60 cassettes still sealed in their original packaging. -- Kevin Schoedel VA3TCS From halarewich at gmail.com Wed Aug 4 19:36:29 2010 From: halarewich at gmail.com (Chris Halarewich) Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2010 17:36:29 -0700 Subject: test to see if messages ares are being posed or seen Message-ID: hello all Nerver mind the waste of bandwidth just trying to see if gmails sending my messages right i sent one a couple days ago with no responses so far and when u post a single messes and if no one respondes gmail does not post it on your main inbox chris From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 4 17:48:44 2010 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2010 15:48:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: To scrap or not to scrap? In-Reply-To: <4C58CFC9.5040907@hachti.de> Message-ID: <400782.58728.qm@web65511.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> > * I came across a box of Token Ring and Arcnet stuff. > Mostly NICs. don't scrap > * IBM PC AT and around don't scrap that. and around what? > * Sun Ultra 1 (or 5?) pizza boxes no in any event. U5s are kinda sorta desirable as modern machines. You can always give them to some kid or whatever (who wants to learn a *real* yooniks > * 5.25" and 8" disk floppy drives and HDDs definitely don't scrap > * Philips P4500 computer (or 5400?) don't know what that is. you coulda told us. And you really should make up your mind here. > Is there any interest in that kind of stuff? Might that be > of sufficient quality (quantity isn't the problem) for a > dedicated flea market event? > > Opinions very welcome. And btw I'm talking about stuff in > Northern Germany... you'd know the flea markets in northern Germany better then us (who don't live there. I for 1 (not for 2, 3, or 4 LOL LOL LOL) have spent about 2 hours in an airport in Germany once. There weren't any flea markets going on. I'm sure someone could make use of the stuff. Some of it could fetch you a few bucks, nothing wrong w/that if that's what you choose to do. From nico at farumdata.dk Thu Aug 5 01:34:31 2010 From: nico at farumdata.dk (Nico de Jong) Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2010 08:34:31 +0200 Subject: To scrap or not to scrap? References: <400782.58728.qm@web65511.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: From: "Chris M" > >> * Philips P4500 computer (or 5400?) > > don't know what that is. you coulda told us. And you really should make up > your mind here. > The Philips P4500 is a mini-mainframe. AFAIR it supported Condtrol Data disks and Pertec tape drives. It came with COBOL. A 5400 doesnt ring a bell, but the 5xxx series was Word Processing. I remember the 5002, a horrible system with hard sectored 5.25" floppies, and the 5020, was (IIRC) was a relabelled Canadian product (MICOM)? Nico (ex Philips PTS 6000) From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Thu Aug 5 02:40:12 2010 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2010 09:40:12 +0200 Subject: OT? Tek 4014 emulator (tying Xterm to ttyS0) In-Reply-To: <4C571779.2030508@philpem.me.uk> References: <4C571779.2030508@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <20100805094012.be6a1165.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Mon, 02 Aug 2010 20:07:37 +0100 Philip Pemberton wrote: > I've been told that tip(1) on BSD will do what I want, I just > can't find anything similar on Linux... cu(1) is similar. tip(1) and cu(1) come with UUCP. So you may get lucky by installing some uucp package such as e.g. Taylor UUCP. -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Thu Aug 5 04:04:47 2010 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2010 11:04:47 +0200 (CEST) Subject: To scrap or not to scrap? In-Reply-To: <400782.58728.qm@web65511.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> References: <400782.58728.qm@web65511.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 4 Aug 2010, Chris M wrote: >> * I came across a box of Token Ring and Arcnet stuff. >> Mostly NICs. > > don't scrap Well, usually nobody wants that, too common and no demand. >> * IBM PC AT and around > > don't scrap that. and around what? If they are original IBM systems, then I agree. If they are clones, I usually salvage the drives, perhaps the I/O cards if they are exotic. Otherwise I'd junk them, you'll drown in those systems otherwise. >> * Sun Ultra 1 (or 5?) pizza boxes > > no in any event. U5s are kinda sorta desirable as modern machines. You > can always give them to some kid or whatever (who wants to learn a > *real* yooniks Eh, I even have some Ultra60, Ultra80 and Ultra10 that nobody wants. And I definitely don't want an Ultra1 for playing (we still have some in service here, but they're not really fun). I'd prefer the older sun[1-3] and sun4/sun4m. Small UltraSparc systems are really dirt common. You can be happy if someone takes one for free. Don't expect any money. >> * 5.25" and 8" disk floppy drives and HDDs > > definitely don't scrap Agree. >> * Philips P4500 computer (or 5400?) > > don't know what that is. you coulda told us. And you really should make > up your mind here. This is from the 1987 edition of Computer Review: "Introduced in 1980, the Philips P4500 is an interactive business computer system designed for small business distributed-processing networks. The P4500 employs 'team processor' architecture, which delegates functions usually performed by the CPU to dedicated special-purpose processors. ANSI COBOL is the major programming language under the DINOS 4000 operating system." Then further on: "Word size: 16 bits, Memory: 256 to 1024kB MOS, Memory Cycle Time: 563ns [...] Magnetic Tape: P3540: 1600bpi, 37ips Line Printer: P2910/62/65:100-600lpm Serial Printer: P2931:100cps;P2934:300cps [...] System Software: Real Time Monitor, Batch Monitor, Data Base Sys, Operating System: DINOS 4000 [...] Sold primarily in Western Europe" I'd be curious what the CPU is. Christian From ama at ugr.es Thu Aug 5 06:18:08 2010 From: ama at ugr.es (Angel Martin Alganza) Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2010 13:18:08 +0200 Subject: To scrap or not to scrap? In-Reply-To: References: <400782.58728.qm@web65511.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20100805111808.GA14077@darwin.ugr.es> Hello, On Thu, Aug 05, 2010 at 11:04:47AM +0200, Christian Corti wrote: > >>* Sun Ultra 1 (or 5?) pizza boxes > > > >no in any event. U5s are kinda sorta desirable as modern machines. You > >can always give them to some kid or whatever (who wants to learn a > >*real* yooniks > > Eh, I even have some Ultra60, Ultra80 and Ultra10 that nobody wants. And I > definitely don't want an Ultra1 for playing (we still have some in service I'd love to have an Ultra 5, or any of those you mentioned for that matter. My main workstation is an Ultra 1 running Debian GNU/Linux. Cheers, ?ngel From jdr_use at bluewin.ch Thu Aug 5 12:36:17 2010 From: jdr_use at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen) Date: Thu, 05 Aug 2010 19:36:17 +0200 Subject: To scrap or not to scrap? In-Reply-To: <4C58CFC9.5040907@hachti.de> References: <4C58CFC9.5040907@hachti.de> Message-ID: <4C5AF691.9020908@bluewin.ch> My recommandations, in knowledge of Philipp's situation : > * I came across a box of Token Ring and Arcnet stuff. Mostly NICs. Scrap > * IBM PC AT and around Original IBM AT -> Sell, others scrap. > * Sun Ultra 1 (or 5?) pizza boxes scrap > * 5.25" and 8" disk floppy drives and HDDs Good MFM drives & 8 " floppies are getting somewhat thin on the ground, 5": scrap > * Philips P4500 computer (or 5400?) Will sell on Ebay for a token amount. > > Is there any interest in that kind of stuff? Might that be of > sufficient quality (quantity isn't the problem) for a dedicated flea > market event? In short : good, decent size MFM drives might be worth your time, the rest rather not. Jos From pontus at Update.UU.SE Thu Aug 5 13:38:51 2010 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2010 20:38:51 +0200 Subject: PDP-11/44 mystery card Message-ID: <20100805183851.GA12620@Update.UU.SE> Hi I've acquired two PDP-11/44 and have just now gone throught the list of cards in the cpu-boxes and the spares. Here is a list: http://www.update.uu.se/~pontus/slask/11-44-kort.txt Nothing special, I've used the field guide to identify most cards. I've only marked one card of each kind. There is two cards connected with ribbon cables that I can't identify. They are made by Data Management Labs in San Jose and are labled DML 750 Board A and Board B. There are some numbers as well (in no particular order) 980-8043 710-1921-001 There are some bitslice chips and a whole bunch of roms. Anything that rings a bell with anyone? Also I wonder what the "M7251 KG11-A U Network interface XOR and CRC block check option" "M3110 DRCSA U Protocol assist #1 w/special character check and CRC (DEC/DLC/DRCSA)" "M3111 DRCSA U Protocol assist #2 w/special character check and CRC (DEC/DLC/DRCSA)" are used for? Cheers, Pontus From legalize at xmission.com Thu Aug 5 14:06:45 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 05 Aug 2010 13:06:45 -0600 Subject: PDP-11/44 mystery card In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 05 Aug 2010 20:38:51 +0200. <20100805183851.GA12620@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: In article <20100805183851.GA12620 at Update.UU.SE>, Pontus Pihlgren writes: > There are some bitslice chips and a whole bunch of roms. Anything that > rings a bell with anyone? Pictures? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Thu Aug 5 14:26:14 2010 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2010 21:26:14 +0200 Subject: PDP-11/44 mystery card In-Reply-To: <20100805183851.GA12620@Update.UU.SE> References: <20100805183851.GA12620@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: Hi Pontus, congrats on this acquisition. > I've acquired two PDP-11/44 and have just now gone throught the list of > cards in the cpu-boxes and the spares. Here is a list: > > http://www.update.uu.se/~pontus/slask/11-44-kort.txt I had a quick look at the list. When looking at Expansionsl?da 2 (l?s) I frowned seeing the 11/24 CPU module there. Now, I don't now if you wrote them down in the order the modules are in the slots (like the first 11/44 CPU), but I think you better check all positions before applying power! Now, my Swedish is nill, but I think "l?s" means something like "loose" , "just a bunch of modules" put together in the expansion box, where the expansion box functions as a storage drawer. I use BA11-K boxes too as storage boxes ... never apply power! > There is two cards connected with ribbon cables that I can't identify. Sorry, can't be of much help here. > Also I wonder what the > "M7251 KG11-A U Network interface XOR and CRC block check option" > "M3110 DRCSA U Protocol assist #1 w/special character check and > CRC (DEC/DLC/DRCSA)" > "M3111 DRCSA U Protocol assist #2 w/special character check and > CRC (DEC/DLC/DRCSA)" > are used for? AFAIK, the KG11-A "belongs" to serial comm cards and adds error checking on the data stream. My guess is that the M3110/3111 are modules that "seek" for a special character and generate a CRC for error checking purposes ... just a guess. - Henk. From neal.filla at delta.com Thu Aug 5 12:45:42 2010 From: neal.filla at delta.com (Filla, Neal M) Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2010 12:45:42 -0500 Subject: Intel RMX 86/330 system & 380 startup questions Message-ID: <57675FF02827504B9B8FA970FEE75607FF2C0BA3@smspbdjdlmb532.delta.rl.delta.com> Looking for a intel 310 computer. Know of any ??? to run rmx86. Neal Filla PH - (612) 726-8612 Fax - (612) 726-0163 neal.filla at Delta.com From pontus at Update.UU.SE Thu Aug 5 15:03:46 2010 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2010 22:03:46 +0200 Subject: PDP-11/44 mystery card In-Reply-To: References: <20100805183851.GA12620@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <20100805200346.GA23387@Update.UU.SE> On Thu, Aug 05, 2010 at 01:06:45PM -0600, Richard wrote: > > In article <20100805183851.GA12620 at Update.UU.SE>, > Pontus Pihlgren writes: > > > There are some bitslice chips and a whole bunch of roms. Anything that > > rings a bell with anyone? > > Pictures? Hmm, should have taken some with my cellphone, I can snap some this weekend perhaps. From pontus at Update.UU.SE Thu Aug 5 15:06:13 2010 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2010 22:06:13 +0200 Subject: PDP-11/44 mystery card In-Reply-To: References: <20100805183851.GA12620@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <20100805200613.GB23387@Update.UU.SE> > Hi Pontus, > > congrats on this acquisition. Thank you! > I had a quick look at the list. > When looking at Expansionsl?da 2 (l?s) I frowned seeing the 11/24 > CPU module there. Now, I don't now if you wrote them down in the > order the modules are in the slots (like the first 11/44 CPU), but I > think you better check all positions before applying power! > Now, my Swedish is nill, but I think "l?s" means something like > "loose" , "just a bunch of modules" put together in the expansion > box, where the expansion box functions as a storage drawer. > I use BA11-K boxes too as storage boxes ... never apply power! You are right, l?s is loose, the box doesn't even have a power supply. I was to surprised to find a 11/24 there. The box has a card listing from an 11/24 on it, but the rest of the cards probably come from the 11/44. > >There is two cards connected with ribbon cables that I can't identify. > > Sorry, can't be of much help here. > > >Also I wonder what the > >"M7251 KG11-A U Network interface XOR and CRC block check option" > >"M3110 DRCSA U Protocol assist #1 w/special character > >check and CRC (DEC/DLC/DRCSA)" > >"M3111 DRCSA U Protocol assist #2 w/special character > >check and CRC (DEC/DLC/DRCSA)" > >are used for? > > AFAIK, the KG11-A "belongs" to serial comm cards and adds > error checking on the data stream. My guess is that the M3110/3111 are > modules that "seek" for a special character and generate a CRC for > error checking purposes ... just a guess. > I see, thank you. /P From hachti at hachti.de Thu Aug 5 15:26:58 2010 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Thu, 05 Aug 2010 22:26:58 +0200 Subject: To scrap or not to scrap? In-Reply-To: References: <400782.58728.qm@web65511.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4C5B1E92.1040909@hachti.de> Hi, >>> * Philips P4500 computer (or 5400?) >> >> don't know what that is. you coulda told us. And you really should >> make up your mind here. >> > The Philips P4500 is a mini-mainframe. AFAIR it supported Condtrol Data > disks and Pertec tape drives. > It came with COBOL. I looked again. It is a 4500. With a terminal. There's a CDC SMD 14" hard disk installed. The drive has the same brown Philips design as the rest. Drive is calles "Mini module drive". I powered up the drive without the computer connected. After finding the transport lock it spun up, loaded heads, and got ready. I have no idea about the overall condition of the system. If nobody speaks for the machine, it will be scrapped in the next weeks. The disk drive will be dismantled and put onto display (I don't have any influence here - could only save the whole thing). Regards, Philipp -- http://www.hachti.de From hachti at hachti.de Thu Aug 5 15:31:13 2010 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Thu, 05 Aug 2010 22:31:13 +0200 Subject: To scrap or not to scrap? In-Reply-To: References: <400782.58728.qm@web65511.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4C5B1F91.206@hachti.de> Hehe, On 05.08.2010 11:04, Christian Corti wrote: > On Wed, 4 Aug 2010, Chris M wrote: >>> * I came across a box of Token Ring and Arcnet stuff. >>> Mostly NICs. >> >> don't scrap > > Well, usually nobody wants that, too common and no demand. Ok, that was a local voice - I'll scrap all the network stuff. >>> * IBM PC AT and around >> >> don't scrap that. and around what? > > If they are original IBM systems, then I agree. If they are clones, I > usually salvage the drives, perhaps the I/O cards if they are exotic. > Otherwise I'd junk them, you'll drown in those systems otherwise. IBM PC XT, AT, AT 386, PS/2, (probably PS/1?) and such machines. With keyboards and some monitors. >>> * Sun Ultra 1 (or 5?) pizza boxes >> >> no in any event. U5s are kinda sorta desirable as modern machines. You >> can always give them to some kid or whatever (who wants to learn a >> *real* yooniks > > Eh, I even have some Ultra60, Ultra80 and Ultra10 that nobody wants. And > I definitely don't want an Ultra1 for playing (we still have some in > service here, but they're not really fun). I'd prefer the older sun[1-3] > and sun4/sun4m. Small UltraSparc systems are really dirt common. You can > be happy if someone takes one for free. Don't expect any money. I'll gladly put them into the scrap container. And remember that I'm interested in Ultra 80 and a 450Mhz Ultra 60.... >>> * 5.25" and 8" disk floppy drives and HDDs >> >> definitely don't scrap > > Agree. Will keep those that don't smell too badly (there's a MASSIV problem with living and - more recent - dead rats...). >>> * Philips P4500 computer (or 5400?) >> >> don't know what that is. you coulda told us. And you really should >> make up your mind here. > > This is from the 1987 edition of Computer Review: > "Introduced in 1980, the Philips P4500 is an interactive business > computer system designed for small business distributed-processing > networks. The P4500 employs 'team processor' architecture, which > delegates functions usually performed by the CPU to dedicated > special-purpose processors. ANSI COBOL is the major programming language > under the DINOS 4000 operating system." > > Then further on: > "Word size: 16 bits, Memory: 256 to 1024kB MOS, Memory Cycle Time: 563ns > [...] > Magnetic Tape: P3540: 1600bpi, 37ips > Line Printer: P2910/62/65:100-600lpm > Serial Printer: P2931:100cps;P2934:300cps > [...] > System Software: Real Time Monitor, Batch Monitor, Data Base Sys, > Operating System: DINOS 4000 > [...] > Sold primarily in Western Europe" > > I'd be curious what the CPU is. Hm... Would be some work to find out. I didn't notice a microprocessor. - Philipp -- http://www.hachti.de From pontus at Update.UU.SE Thu Aug 5 15:44:03 2010 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2010 22:44:03 +0200 Subject: To scrap or not to scrap? In-Reply-To: <4C5B1F91.206@hachti.de> References: <400782.58728.qm@web65511.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <4C5B1F91.206@hachti.de> Message-ID: <20100805204403.GA27388@Update.UU.SE> On Thu, Aug 05, 2010 at 10:31:13PM +0200, Philipp Hachtmann wrote: > >If they are original IBM systems, then I agree. If they are clones, I > >usually salvage the drives, perhaps the I/O cards if they are exotic. > >Otherwise I'd junk them, you'll drown in those systems otherwise. > IBM PC XT, AT, AT 386, PS/2, (probably PS/1?) and such machines. With keyboards and some monitors. Announce them at the vintagecomputer forums if you care about saving them, some people there really want XT and AT machines. http://www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum/ /P From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Thu Aug 5 15:48:04 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Thu, 05 Aug 2010 21:48:04 +0100 Subject: Pronouncing acronyms (was Re: DEC acronyms) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C5B2384.4050309@philpem.me.uk> On 04/08/10 19:12, Tony Duell wrote: > It doens't apply here, but I've come to the point where it's quicker for > me to trace out a scheamtic than to do battle with teh so-called > 'customer suppoer' for many procducts. Same with warrenties, actually, > Much of the time I find it quicker and less hassle to fix the darn thing > myself than to jump through hoops to get a free repair... Don't get me started on customer disservice... A year or so ago I ordered some hardware and had it sent to work (the alternative was to take a week off; the distributor wouldn't give me a firm date for delivery, nor were they willing to let me send a courier down to pick it up). Fast forward to last week when said hardware breaks. Turns out it's got a "lifetime guarantee" handled through the distributor. So I called the distributor and ask for an RMA number, and for the replacement to be sent to my home address (which is the billing address on the original invoice, and also the current billing address they have on file). No other distributor has had a problem with this (it was over a year ago, people move, it's a common problem). Their response? "We can't guarantee that the replacement will be sent to the billing address. You'll need to contact the current occupants at the delivery address and have them forward it to you." "That'll be a little difficult. That's my previous employer's address, and they've moved since then. I'm not even sure the building's still there, the landlord was going to knock it down and rebuild it." "Well, that isn't my problem. I can't help you further, you'll have to negotiate with the current occupants of the building." [ After a bit of to-ing and fro-ing, I still can't get the CSR to understand the significance of 'the building is a pile of rubble, the courier will just send it back to you' -- if this happens they charge ?45 to whatever credit card they have on file as a "handling charge" ] "Sorry, I don't think we're getting anywhere here, may I speak to your supervisor" "No." "No?" "My supervisor won't take calls from customers. He's too busy." "Do you know when he might be available? Or can I at least have his name and office address so I might send a letter of complaint?" "The address is on our website. I can't give you his name." "OK... is there a department I can address this to?" "Complaints department." "Right, can I just take your name, for my records? Or maybe an employee ID number or something, just so I know who I've been talking to?" "I can't give you that information." "Despite the fact you started the call by giving me your name?" "I may have given you my name, but I'm not going to repeat it. I feel this conversation has gone on long enough, goodbye. *click*" This is the same company whose "resolution" for replacing a faulty PC motherboard was to send me someone else's faulty board, and call it "refurbished". Yes it was nice and clean, but the blown power FETs were a bit of a give-away... Yes, they're on my "naughty list"... though dealing with the fallout from the stuff I've bought from them in the past will be good entertainment for years to come. [ Is it just me or are computer vendors about as trustworthy as the average used car salesmen? Although in most cases the manufacturers aren't much better... Antec are great, Akasa are reasonable, ASUS are downright evil ] -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From cclist at sydex.com Thu Aug 5 15:57:14 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 05 Aug 2010 13:57:14 -0700 Subject: Pronouncing acronyms (was Re: DEC acronyms) In-Reply-To: <4C5B2384.4050309@philpem.me.uk> References: , <4C5B2384.4050309@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4C5AC33A.23908.1235C51@cclist.sydex.com> On 5 Aug 2010 at 21:48, Philip Pemberton wrote: > [ Is it just me or are computer vendors about as trustworthy as the > average used car salesmen? Although in most cases the manufacturers > aren't much better... Antec are great, Akasa are reasonable, ASUS are > downright evil ] I understand that the good folks in Shenzhen will repair almost anything. Unfortunately, the carfare is a bit expensive. --Chuck From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Thu Aug 5 16:23:51 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Thu, 05 Aug 2010 22:23:51 +0100 Subject: Pronouncing acronyms (was Re: DEC acronyms) In-Reply-To: <4C5AC33A.23908.1235C51@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4C5B2384.4050309@philpem.me.uk> <4C5AC33A.23908.1235C51@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4C5B2BE7.4030202@philpem.me.uk> On 05/08/10 21:57, Chuck Guzis wrote: > I understand that the good folks in Shenzhen will repair almost > anything. Unfortunately, the carfare is a bit expensive. Yes, and apparently you can get just about any electronic component you could want from Shenzhen (or Akihabara for that matter). What narks me off is when companies demand that you pay for an "RMA voucher" -- which is what ASUS do over here. ?50 for the voucher, and you pay the cost of shipping the faulty $DEVICE to Taipei. Bet it really cuts down on the number of RMAs. The annoying part is that ASUS USA will sell spare parts for their laptops (even stuff like motherboards) so you can basically do DIY fixes. ASUS Europe don't even have a phone number (IIRC). Seagate are almost as bad. "Send us the drive, we'll pay return post, but it has to be sent in one of our RMA-Approved Boxes complete with branding".... last time I checked, one of those boxes was ?25 plus VAT and P&P. This and the "F-you" I got when my Barracuda 7200.11 packed in from a firmware issue basically means they're not going to be seeing any of my $$$ for a VERY LONG time. I did fix the drive, though: with a serial cable and a HOWTO I found in a Google search (I think it was on hddguru). -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From binarydinosaurs at gmail.com Thu Aug 5 16:40:18 2010 From: binarydinosaurs at gmail.com (Adrian Graham) Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2010 22:40:18 +0100 Subject: Pronouncing acronyms (was Re: DEC acronyms) In-Reply-To: <4C5B2BE7.4030202@philpem.me.uk> References: <4C5B2384.4050309@philpem.me.uk> <4C5AC33A.23908.1235C51@cclist.sydex.com> <4C5B2BE7.4030202@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: On 5 August 2010 22:23, Philip Pemberton wrote: > > The annoying part is that ASUS USA will sell spare parts for their laptops (even stuff like motherboards) so you can basically do DIY fixes. ASUS Europe don't even have a phone number (IIRC). http://uk.asus.com/ContentPage.aspx?Content_Type=bottom&Content_Id=85 or if you don't want to clicky: +44 (0) 870 1208 340 or 01442 202700 -- -- adrian/witchy Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest home? computer collection? www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Thu Aug 5 17:01:05 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2010 19:01:05 -0300 Subject: Pronouncing acronyms (was Re: DEC acronyms) References: <4C5B2384.4050309@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <056201cb34e9$eead7300$0600000a@portajara> [ Is it just me or are computer vendors about as trustworthy as the average used car salesmen? Although in most cases the manufacturers aren't much better... Antec are great, Akasa are reasonable, ASUS are downright evil ] Strangely, I had an excellent customer experience in Brazil (!!!), I got an intel motherboard some two years ago and had it exchanged in warranty TWO TIMES. Excellent service :) From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Thu Aug 5 17:37:00 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Thu, 05 Aug 2010 23:37:00 +0100 Subject: Pronouncing acronyms (was Re: DEC acronyms) In-Reply-To: References: <4C5B2384.4050309@philpem.me.uk> <4C5AC33A.23908.1235C51@cclist.sydex.com> <4C5B2BE7.4030202@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4C5B3D0C.80109@philpem.me.uk> On 05/08/10 22:40, Adrian Graham wrote: > http://uk.asus.com/ContentPage.aspx?Content_Type=bottom&Content_Id=85 > > or if you don't want to clicky: +44 (0) 870 1208 340 or 01442 202700 That's new. Last time I checked they didn't even have that... Seems they've revamped the "e-shop" and actually added a link to it, but it's as broken as ever: Thank you for visiting ASUS eShop! ASUS eShop is temporarily unavailable as we are currently upgrading our system to further enhance your ASUS online shopping experience. We apologize for any inconvenience . If you have any questions regarding to your order on ASUS eShop United Kingdom site, please email us. I'll wager that they still don't sell laptop parts in the UK / EU... -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From marvin at west.net Thu Aug 5 21:30:29 2010 From: marvin at west.net (Marvin Johnston) Date: Thu, 05 Aug 2010 19:30:29 -0700 Subject: Data General 6050 Disk Drive Message-ID: <4C5B73C5.4010500@west.net> A friend of mine has a Data General Model 6050 Disk Drive with no disk packs. This thing is fairly heavy (guessing 80 - 100 pounds) and appears to be complete although the top cover screws have been removed and it looks like it might have hit something (the front panel is somewhat bent.) Anyone interested? I can disassemble or whatever to reduce shipping costs. I think he would be happy with around $50.00, or maybe slightly less. Thanks! Marvin From mdavidson1963 at gmail.com Thu Aug 5 21:36:42 2010 From: mdavidson1963 at gmail.com (Mark Davidson) Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2010 19:36:42 -0700 Subject: Data General 6050 Disk Drive In-Reply-To: <4C5B73C5.4010500@west.net> References: <4C5B73C5.4010500@west.net> Message-ID: Location? On Thu, Aug 5, 2010 at 7:30 PM, Marvin Johnston wrote: > > A friend of mine ?has a Data General Model 6050 Disk Drive with no disk > packs. This thing is fairly heavy (guessing 80 - 100 pounds) and appears to > be complete although the top cover screws have been removed and it looks > like it might have hit something (the front panel is somewhat bent.) > > Anyone interested? I can disassemble or whatever to reduce shipping costs. I > think he would be happy with around $50.00, or maybe slightly less. > > Thanks! > > Marvin > From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Aug 5 22:14:35 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2010 23:14:35 -0400 Subject: Data General 6050 Disk Drive In-Reply-To: <4C5B73C5.4010500@west.net> References: <4C5B73C5.4010500@west.net> Message-ID: > and it looks > like it might have hit something (the front panel is somewhat bent.) I have seen quite a few like this - I think it is a design flaw that comes out when people tried to force the drive out of the rack. -- Will From binarydinosaurs at gmail.com Fri Aug 6 03:19:10 2010 From: binarydinosaurs at gmail.com (Adrian Graham) Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2010 09:19:10 +0100 Subject: Pronouncing acronyms (was Re: DEC acronyms) In-Reply-To: <4C5B3D0C.80109@philpem.me.uk> References: <4C5B2384.4050309@philpem.me.uk> <4C5AC33A.23908.1235C51@cclist.sydex.com> <4C5B2BE7.4030202@philpem.me.uk> <4C5B3D0C.80109@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: On 5 August 2010 23:37, Philip Pemberton wrote: > On 05/08/10 22:40, Adrian Graham wrote: >> >> http://uk.asus.com/ContentPage.aspx?Content_Type=bottom&Content_Id=85 >> >> or if you don't want to clicky: +44 (0) 870 1208 340 or 01442 202700 > > That's new. Last time I checked they didn't even have that... Seems they've > revamped the "e-shop" and actually added a link to it, but it's as broken as > ever: > I got the 01442 number from saynoto0870.co.uk, there's a note against it that says 'don't know how much longer this will last but keep trying' > > I'll wager that they still don't sell laptop parts in the UK / EU... > When we're fixing laptops we'll get bits from ebay that we need, no point in going back to the manufacturer for the very reason you state... -- -- adrian/witchy Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest home? computer collection? www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Fri Aug 6 07:33:33 2010 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2010 08:33:33 -0400 Subject: Greetings fellow classiccmp'ers In-Reply-To: <20100801195510.C7FAD1E0229@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> References: <20100801195510.C7FAD1E0229@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <4C5C011D.1070701@compsys.to> >Tim Shoppa wrote: >Having recently migrated all the stuff on *.trailing-edge.com to a 2010 >era server (as opposed to the 2000 era server it was on - previous >to that it had been on an Alpha with VMS, and previous to that it >had been on a VAX with VMS) with >fresh installs of all the software I was pleasantly >surprised with the advances that have been made in apache and mailman >configuration over time especially with respect to virtual domains etc. >In particular the Ubuntu distribution was very straightforward to deal with... >after I had adopted to the more modern configuration techniques. > >And spamassassin can be better integrated with postfix and mailman than >in the past, to the point where the obvious spams never have to make it >to a moderator's mailbox or turn up as a bogus request to the admin >address. > >I'm not sure you need to stage through an intermediate platform, BTW. >Just bite the bullet and go to the final platform. Unless you really >enjoy installing and configuring everything twice. Although I was >pleasantly surprised with the new Apache etc. configuration methods >I still wouldn't want to do it twice. > Can you let us know the new address of those files? In particular, I was impressed with the stuff at: ftp://ftp.trailing-edge.com/pub but it no longer responds. Are those files available elsewhere and I am just looking in the wrong place? Jerome Fine From ICS65 at sbcglobal.net Fri Aug 6 10:32:12 2010 From: ICS65 at sbcglobal.net (George Wiegand) Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2010 11:32:12 -0400 Subject: Data General 6050 Disk Drive References: <4C5B73C5.4010500@west.net> Message-ID: <111FBC2BCF064EEEBD4EA0B093D5543F@ecs40ks4zrtt7t> Sure, I think there should be quite a few people on list that could use it, including myself. So where's it located? ,George ----- Original Message ----- From: "Marvin Johnston" To: "ClassicCmp" Sent: Thursday, August 05, 2010 10:30 PM Subject: Data General 6050 Disk Drive > > A friend of mine has a Data General Model 6050 Disk Drive with no disk > packs. This thing is fairly heavy (guessing 80 - 100 pounds) and appears > to be complete although the top cover screws have been removed and it > looks like it might have hit something (the front panel is somewhat bent.) > > Anyone interested? I can disassemble or whatever to reduce shipping costs. > I think he would be happy with around $50.00, or maybe slightly less. > > Thanks! > > Marvin From marvin at west.net Fri Aug 6 12:21:05 2010 From: marvin at west.net (Marvin Johnston) Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2010 10:21:05 -0700 Subject: Data General 6050 Disk Drive Message-ID: <4C5C4481.3080603@west.net> Oops, I guess everyones esp is not working so well having to ask where this unit is :). It is located in Santa Barbara, CA. I received an email almost immediately from someone interested. If he ends up not taking it, I'll repost to the list. Thanks! Marvin From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Aug 6 14:12:24 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2010 20:12:24 +0100 (BST) Subject: Pronouncing acronyms (was Re: DEC acronyms) In-Reply-To: <4C5B2384.4050309@philpem.me.uk> from "Philip Pemberton" at Aug 5, 10 09:48:04 pm Message-ID: > > On 04/08/10 19:12, Tony Duell wrote: > > It doens't apply here, but I've come to the point where it's quicker fo= > r > > me to trace out a scheamtic than to do battle with teh so-called > > 'customer suppoer' for many procducts. Same with warrenties, actually, > > Much of the time I find it quicker and less hassle to fix the darn thin= > g > > myself than to jump through hoops to get a free repair... > > Don't get me started on customer disservice... I think this rant could run and run... One of my major dislikes is companies who do not reply to queries/complaints .Put it this way, I bought a product some years ago which di not meet the advertised speicifcations (if they say 'built in assembler; then i darn well expect there to be one). I wrote 2 letters, the socond one including IRCs, and enver got a reply. The company? HP (!). I will never buy another new HP product... It's a pity becasue I'd been using their machines for many years until then, and had had excelelnt customer service (not that I needed it very often). > > A year or so ago I ordered some hardware and had it sent to work (the=20 > alternative was to take a week off; the distributor wouldn't give me a=20 > firm date for delivery, nor were they willing to let me send a courier=20 > down to pick it up). Fast forward to last week when said hardware=20 > breaks. Turns out it's got a "lifetime guarantee" handled through the=20 > distributor. As an aside, I've found a lot of lifetime (or exxtended) guarantees are not worth the paper they're printed on. They either depend on having thr thing checked/serviced my the manufacuter (cars often have this one...) or the gurrantee covers parts, but you still have to pay for labour. And they wont give you the bits to fit yourself. Of coruse most of the time they simply inflate the labour charge to cover the cost of the parts... [...] > "I may have given you my name, but I'm not going to repeat it. I feel=20 > this conversation has gone on long enough, goodbye. *click*" As I said, not worth the hassle. The sooned such companies learn to actually support their customers, the better! > > > This is the same company whose "resolution" for replacing a faulty PC=20 > motherboard was to send me someone else's faulty board, and call it=20 > "refurbished". Yes it was nice and clean, but the blown power FETs were=20 > a bit of a give-away... I see... > > Yes, they're on my "naughty list"... though dealing with the fallout=20 > from the stuff I've bought from them in the past will be good=20 > entertainment for years to come. > > [ Is it just me or are computer vendors about as trustworthy as the=20 > average used car salesmen? Although in most cases the manufacturers=20 I can't disagree with you... That's one reason I stick to older kit. I can fix it myself, not having the hassle of sealing with those sort of lamebrains easily outwiehgts having to track down faults with 'scope and logic analyer myself... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Aug 6 14:15:14 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2010 20:15:14 +0100 (BST) Subject: Pronouncing acronyms (was Re: DEC acronyms) In-Reply-To: <4C5B2BE7.4030202@philpem.me.uk> from "Philip Pemberton" at Aug 5, 10 10:23:51 pm Message-ID: > The annoying part is that ASUS USA will sell spare parts for their=20 > laptops (even stuff like motherboards) so you can basically do DIY=20 > fixes. ASUS Europe don't even have a phone number (IIRC). But not real poarts, like individual ICs, or even things like swithces and connectors (which are likely to break, and can be easily hand-soldered) I'll bet... Again, I have real service manauls for all my laptops (which are, of course, all on-topic here :-)) with schematics. And many of the parits I can still get (althoguh the ASICs would be fun to get now ;-(). But anyway... > > Seagate are almost as bad. "Send us the drive, we'll pay return post,=20 > but it has to be sent in one of our RMA-Approved Boxes complete with=20 > branding".... last time I checked, one of those boxes was =A325 plus VAT=20 > and P&P. This and the "F-you" I got when my Barracuda 7200.11 packed in=20 Yep, I had that little scam... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Aug 6 14:04:35 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2010 20:04:35 +0100 (BST) Subject: To scrap or not to scrap? In-Reply-To: <4C5B1E92.1040909@hachti.de> from "Philipp Hachtmann" at Aug 5, 10 10:26:58 pm Message-ID: > > Hi, > > >>> * Philips P4500 computer (or 5400?) > >> > >> don't know what that is. you coulda told us. And you really should > >> make up your mind here. > >> > > The Philips P4500 is a mini-mainframe. AFAIR it supported Condtrol Data > > disks and Pertec tape drives. > > It came with COBOL. > > I looked again. It is a 4500. With a terminal. There's a CDC SMD 14" hard disk installed. The drive This sounds sufficiently unusual that it shouldn't be scrapped. Oh why can't it be in England??? > has the same brown Philips design as the rest. Drive is calles "Mini module drive". I powered up the > drive without the computer connected. After finding the transport lock it spun up, loaded heads, and > got ready. I have no idea about the overall condition of the system. > > If nobody speaks for the machine, it will be scrapped in the next weeks. The disk drive will be Plese try to save it. Philips machines are suffiiciently odd to be interesting if you see what I mean. OK, I am biased (my first mincomputer was a Philips, I read those schematiocs many times), but still... -tony From arcarlini at iee.org Fri Aug 6 14:35:08 2010 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2010 20:35:08 +0100 Subject: Pronouncing acronyms (was Re: DEC acronyms) In-Reply-To: <4C5B2BE7.4030202@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <943F9961A3AD4CCBB749EC14135A8A36@ANTONIOPC> Philip Pemberton [classiccmp at philpem.me.uk] wrote: > Seagate are almost as bad. "Send us the drive, we'll pay return post, > but it has to be sent in one of our RMA-Approved Boxes complete with > branding".... last time I checked, one of those boxes was ?25 > plus VAT > and P&P. This and the "F-you" I got when my Barracuda 7200.11 > packed in > from a firmware issue basically means they're not going to be > seeing any > of my $$$ for a VERY LONG time. FWIW I've sent back a couple of Seagate drives from work and had no trouble. They do want it packed properly but didn't bat an eyelid with the random packaging I had to hand. Same deal with WD but they're even better: give them a credit card and they'll send the new drive out first. You then send back the broken one in whatever they sent the new one ... Antonio From hachti at hachti.de Fri Aug 6 19:24:17 2010 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Sat, 07 Aug 2010 02:24:17 +0200 Subject: FYI - Maryland Computer Museum article In-Reply-To: <4C574773.2070101@atarimuseum.com> References: <4C574063.3070401@bitsavers.org> <4C5745AC.9080806@snarc.net> <4C574773.2070101@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <4C5CA7B1.4070101@hachti.de> On 03.08.2010 00:32, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > Not all of us have a former Naval Communications Research Base to setup > our stuff in ;-) I definitively prefer a few smaller medieval castles - they are far more solid and emphasize the vintage feeling :-) The multi-castle approach (worth a patent?) provides some redundancy in case of should happen. It also enables all of the four to sixteen possible visitors to visit your collection on an ecologically reasonable basis. Oh dear, it's 2:22 a.m. ..... :-) From hachti at hachti.de Fri Aug 6 19:26:40 2010 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Sat, 07 Aug 2010 02:26:40 +0200 Subject: FYI - Maryland Computer Museum article In-Reply-To: References: <4C574063.3070401@bitsavers.org> <4C5745AC.9080806@snarc.net> <4C574773.2070101@atarimuseum.com> <4C574A86.1020608@snarc.net> <4C578566.2060805@comcast.net> Message-ID: <4C5CA840.6000207@hachti.de> On 03.08.2010 05:17, William Donzelli wrote: >> - there's no rule that a museum is supposed to be publicly owned. > > I do not know about other states, but in New York - yes, real > incorporated museums are public, officially part of University of the > State of New York, and must follow the Rules of the Regents. Ahh...! That discussion rings a bell.... pdp12.org From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Sat Aug 7 12:13:40 2010 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Sat, 07 Aug 2010 12:13:40 -0500 Subject: ANN: liblpfk (IBM LPFK driver library), tumble-0.33-philpem1 In-Reply-To: <4C4F8179.5020604@philpem.me.uk> References: <4C4F8179.5020604@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4C5D9444.5090406@brutman.com> Philip Pemberton wrote: > Hi guys, > > A few of you might remember the IBM LPFK bulk-order a couple of years > back, and the ensuing chaos of figuring out the control protocol (which > was eventually resolved when Michael Brutman found some old IBM protocol > docs which covered the LPFK). > > I figure I've been sitting on the code for long enough: it's time to > make a proper release! > > Anyone who wants to have a play with this is welcome to do so: the code > is on my website, under "Code :: liblpfk", or if you'd prefer a direct > link: > http://www.philpem.me.uk/code/liblpfk/ > Excellent! (I'm two weeks late seeing this - something about 1000+ messages accumulated in my mailbox.) Mike From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Aug 7 12:59:42 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2010 18:59:42 +0100 (BST) Subject: FYI - Maryland Computer Museum articleu In-Reply-To: <4C5CA7B1.4070101@hachti.de> from "Philipp Hachtmann" at Aug 7, 10 02:24:17 am Message-ID: > I definitively prefer a few smaller medieval castles - they are far more > solid and emphasize the vintage feeling :-) I think I;'d prefer a Victorian factory building with the steam engine (anf boiler) and lineshafting still in place :-) Castles, at least the ones I've fisited over here, tend to have narrow stone helical staricases, which would not be easy to get 19" racks up. -tony From silent700 at gmail.com Sat Aug 7 13:35:16 2010 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2010 13:35:16 -0500 Subject: That darned PDP font Message-ID: This probably comes up every other year or so, but I am looking for the font used on older DEC literature. It may or may not be the one used for the actual PDP11 logo (only three character examples there ;) but it is the one used on the covers of the old Handbooks, like this one: http://gargravarr.cc.utexas.edu/cc/artifacts/dec-pdp-11-processor-handbook-cover.jpg There are many similar round fonts out there, and one could make the pdp11 logo out of them, but the other characters fail. Has this mystery been solved? Internal font? All hand drawn? -- jht From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Aug 7 14:21:00 2010 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Sat, 07 Aug 2010 13:21:00 -0600 Subject: FYI - Maryland Computer Museum articleu In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C5DB21C.9080909@jetnet.ab.ca> Tony Duell wrote: >> I definitively prefer a few smaller medieval castles - they are far more >> solid and emphasize the vintage feeling :-) > > I think I;'d prefer a Victorian factory building with the steam engine > (anf boiler) and lineshafting still in place :-) > > Castles, at least the ones I've fisited over here, tend to have narrow > stone helical staricases, which would not be easy to get 19" racks up. That would explain why , Dr Frankenstein movies all use analog equipment. :) > -tony > From ragooman at gmail.com Sat Aug 7 14:40:44 2010 From: ragooman at gmail.com (Dan Roganti) Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2010 15:40:44 -0400 Subject: GET LAMP is here Message-ID: GET LAMP is here =Dan -- --http://www.vintagecomputer.net/ragooman/ From geneb at deltasoft.com Sat Aug 7 14:44:57 2010 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2010 12:44:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: GET LAMP is here In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, 7 Aug 2010, Dan Roganti wrote: > GET LAMP is here > I'm hoping my copy will be here today. What coin# did you get? :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Aug 7 15:08:04 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2010 21:08:04 +0100 (BST) Subject: FYI - Maryland Computer Museum articleu In-Reply-To: <4C5DB21C.9080909@jetnet.ab.ca> from "Ben" at Aug 7, 10 01:21:00 pm Message-ID: > > Castles, at least the ones I've fisited over here, tend to have narrow > > stone helical staricases, which would not be easy to get 19" racks up. > > That would explain why , Dr Frankenstein movies all use analog equipment. :) Would it? Many analogue instruemnts come/came in 19" rack cases too... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Aug 7 15:09:13 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2010 21:09:13 +0100 (BST) Subject: GET LAMP is here In-Reply-To: from "Gene Buckle" at Aug 7, 10 12:44:57 pm Message-ID: > > On Sat, 7 Aug 2010, Dan Roganti wrote: > > > GET LAMP is here > > > I'm hoping my copy will be here today. What coin# did you get? :) Are the rest of us supposed to have a clue about this? -tony From ragooman at gmail.com Sat Aug 7 15:08:09 2010 From: ragooman at gmail.com (Dan Roganti) Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2010 16:08:09 -0400 Subject: GET LAMP is here In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Aug 7, 2010 at 3:44 PM, Gene Buckle wrote: > On Sat, 7 Aug 2010, Dan Roganti wrote: > > GET LAMP is here >> >> I'm hoping my copy will be here today. What coin# did you get? :) > > #948 don't lick it, the card says 'made in china' :) =Dan -- --http://www.vintagecomputer.net/ragooman/ From geneb at deltasoft.com Sat Aug 7 15:23:47 2010 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2010 13:23:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: GET LAMP is here In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, 7 Aug 2010, Tony Duell wrote: >> >> On Sat, 7 Aug 2010, Dan Roganti wrote: >> >>> GET LAMP is here >>> >> I'm hoping my copy will be here today. What coin# did you get? :) > > Are the rest of us supposed to have a clue about this? > http://www.getlamp.com - Before the first person shooter, there was the second person thinker. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From geneb at deltasoft.com Sat Aug 7 15:24:45 2010 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2010 13:24:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: GET LAMP is here In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, 7 Aug 2010, Dan Roganti wrote: > On Sat, Aug 7, 2010 at 3:44 PM, Gene Buckle wrote: > >> On Sat, 7 Aug 2010, Dan Roganti wrote: >> >> GET LAMP is here >>> >>> I'm hoping my copy will be here today. What coin# did you get? :) >> >> > > #948 > > don't lick it, the card says 'made in china' :) > Heheheh. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From cclist at sydex.com Sat Aug 7 15:39:36 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 07 Aug 2010 13:39:36 -0700 Subject: GET LAMP is here In-Reply-To: References: , , Message-ID: <4C5D6218.15969.1A45B82@cclist.sydex.com> Okay, I get the reference to Colossal Cave, but what does this have to do with microcomputers, as the introduction seems to imply? I recall that the original was done on a DECSystem 10, not a micro. (A DEC FE got me a tape of the source and database and I converted it to run on a CDC 6000 series machine--I should have been fired for all the lost company time that resulted, but somehow I escaped). --Chuck From geneb at deltasoft.com Sat Aug 7 15:45:43 2010 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2010 13:45:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: GET LAMP is here In-Reply-To: <4C5D6218.15969.1A45B82@cclist.sydex.com> References: , , <4C5D6218.15969.1A45B82@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 7 Aug 2010, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Okay, I get the reference to Colossal Cave, but what does this have > to do with microcomputers, as the introduction seems to imply? I > recall that the original was done on a DECSystem 10, not a micro. (A > DEC FE got me a tape of the source and database and I converted it to > run on a CDC 6000 series machine--I should have been fired for all > the lost company time that resulted, but somehow I escaped). > Chuck, Get Lamp is a documentary that covers adventure games. He even went to the cave where the first Adventure was based on. It's done by the same guy that did the BBS Documentary. It's been in the works for about 4 years or so. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sat Aug 7 15:47:09 2010 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2010 13:47:09 -0700 Subject: FYI - Maryland Computer Museum articleu In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8c5338f08ef9fb7652ca3b2ef334437b@cs.ubc.ca> On 2010 Aug 7, at 1:08 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >>> Castles, at least the ones I've fisited over here, tend to have >>> narrow >>> stone helical staricases, which would not be easy to get 19" racks >>> up. >> >> That would explain why , Dr Frankenstein movies all use analog >> equipment. :) > > Would it? Many analogue instruemnts come/came in 19" rack cases too... But analog equipment is continuously variable, so it will fit around curves. From ragooman at gmail.com Sat Aug 7 15:53:15 2010 From: ragooman at gmail.com (Dan Roganti) Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2010 16:53:15 -0400 Subject: GET LAMP is here In-Reply-To: <4C5D6218.15969.1A45B82@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4C5D6218.15969.1A45B82@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Aug 7, 2010 at 4:39 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Okay, I get the reference to Colossal Cave, but what does this have > to do with microcomputers, as the introduction seems to imply? I > recall that the original was done on a DECSystem 10, not a micro. (A > DEC FE got me a tape of the source and database and I converted it to > run on a CDC 6000 series machine--I should have been fired for all > the lost company time that resulted, but somehow I escaped). > > I think don't they neglect the origins. I would say that since the advent of the microprocessor in the 70s, the market essentially bursted into a much wider audience, since more home microcomputers were made than any other category (mini's, big iron, etc) and allowed more people to have the text adventure experience - more than just those of us in the industry. =Dan -- --http://www.vintagecomputer.net/ragooman/ From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Sat Aug 7 16:30:05 2010 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Sat, 07 Aug 2010 16:30:05 -0500 Subject: Iomega Bernoulli Box 20+20 (A220H) In-Reply-To: <4C390EC0.5090003@brutman.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20100701171352.0ba34848@localhost>, <4C2D0410.1615.2C6F772@cclist.sydex.com>, <4C38B206.4090806@brutman.com> <4C38833D.7009.13C42B5@cclist.sydex.com> <4C390EC0.5090003@brutman.com> Message-ID: <4C5DD05D.9090906@brutman.com> Almost there ... I got a good tip that 10MB cartridges would work in a 20MB drive. I found 10MB cartridges on eBay at a reasonable price, and they at least fit in the drive. I connected the drive to an older Linux machine, figuring that I would need all of the tools that I could get my hands on. Linux sees it as a 10MB mass storage device with 39168 256 byte sectors. This is goodness. The bad part is that Linux, even on an older kernel like 2.6.16 doesn't seem to know how to deal with 256 byte sectored media. Any attempt to read from the device reports a buffer underrun which always shows that the number of bytes read is half of what was asked. Some quick Googling did not find a method around this. I'm going to have to go back to something much older, like a 2.2 or 2.4 kernel and hope things are better. Or go to DOS with the Iomega software, but I don't have that yet. On the positive side, the drive is running. And it's a noisy beast, befitting it's size. :-) Special thanks to ChuckG for nudging me in the write direction.. It's SCSI enough for Linux to talk to it. And to Jim Scheef who gave me the tip about the 10MB media working in a 20MB drive. Mike From rich.cini at verizon.net Sat Aug 7 17:24:43 2010 From: rich.cini at verizon.net (Richard Cini) Date: Sat, 07 Aug 2010 18:24:43 -0400 Subject: GET LAMP is here In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I just ordered mine -- the double-pack with the BBS documentary. On 8/7/10 4:23 PM, "Gene Buckle" wrote: > On Sat, 7 Aug 2010, Tony Duell wrote: > >>> >>> On Sat, 7 Aug 2010, Dan Roganti wrote: >>> >>>> GET LAMP is here >>>> >>> I'm hoping my copy will be here today. What coin# did you get? :) >> >> Are the rest of us supposed to have a clue about this? >> > http://www.getlamp.com - Before the first person shooter, there was the > second person thinker. :) > > g. Rich -- Rich Cini Collector of Classic Computers Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator http://www.altair32.com http://www.classiccmp.org/cini From cclist at sydex.com Sat Aug 7 17:26:46 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 07 Aug 2010 15:26:46 -0700 Subject: Iomega Bernoulli Box 20+20 (A220H) In-Reply-To: <4C5DD05D.9090906@brutman.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20100701171352.0ba34848@localhost>, <4C390EC0.5090003@brutman.com>, <4C5DD05D.9090906@brutman.com> Message-ID: <4C5D7B36.29751.2067603@cclist.sydex.com> On 7 Aug 2010 at 16:30, Michael B. Brutman wrote: > Some quick Googling did not find a method around this. I'm going to > have to go back to something much older, like a 2.2 or 2.4 kernel and > hope things are better. Or go to DOS with the Iomega software, but I > don't have that yet. 256-byte sectors and Linux don't seem to like each other. I think that Linux likes to buffer 512-byte sectors and gets confused when presented with something else. However, I think that sg_dd might at least read and write in raw form, to and from your drives: http://linux.die.net/man/8/sg_dd The alternative might be to hack an existing driver to transfer two sectors when one is requested. --Chuck From michael.passer at gmail.com Sat Aug 7 17:54:15 2010 From: michael.passer at gmail.com (Michael Passer) Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2010 17:54:15 -0500 Subject: FS local pickup only-Kansas City, MO area-OSI C1P, C4P, SuperPET, PET 4016, DEC VT-180, TRS-80 4 and 4P Message-ID: Greetings, all. Have the following for sale--need to move these quickly and they are priced as such. I am in Greenwood, Missouri (a few blocks east of Lee's Summit along Missouri 150). I am not looking for eBay prices but am also not looking for eBay-level hassle--I just don't have time to pack and ship these systems anywhere; they would have to be picked up locally and paid for with cash. I would of course be happy to allow prospective buyers to power up each machine and verify its operation to his satisfaction before paying. Ohio Scientific C1P with disk drive - $125 Ohio Scientific C4P with disk drive - $150 Commodore SuperPET with 8050 (one drive needs a part for the door) - $90 Commodore PET 4016 - $50 DEC VT-180 - $50 TRS-80 Model 4 - $20 TRS-80 Model 4P - $30 I additionally have several VIC-20s, C-64s, a C-128 or two, disk drives, Atari 8-bit machines, an Atari ST, monitors, and software for those interested in things along those lines as well. That said, I will listen to and consider any reasonable offer. Thank you for taking a moment to read this! Michael Passer michael.passer at gmail.com From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Sat Aug 7 18:15:04 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2010 20:15:04 -0300 Subject: GET LAMP is here References: Message-ID: <0ab501cb3687$df04cdf0$0600000a@portajara> >> > GET LAMP is here >> > >> I'm hoping my copy will be here today. What coin# did you get? :) > > Are the rest of us supposed to have a clue about this? Ditto?! From michael.passer at gmail.com Sat Aug 7 18:28:32 2010 From: michael.passer at gmail.com (Michael Passer) Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2010 18:28:32 -0500 Subject: FS local pickup only-Kansas City, MO area-OSI C1P, C4P, SuperPET, PET 4016, DEC VT-180, TRS-80 4 and 4P In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The items mentioned have been tentatively sold -- thank you! From tpeters at mixcom.com Sat Aug 7 21:31:24 2010 From: tpeters at mixcom.com (Tom Peters) Date: Sat, 07 Aug 2010 21:31:24 -0500 Subject: GET LAMP is here In-Reply-To: <0ab501cb3687$df04cdf0$0600000a@portajara> References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20100807213037.0cc9ddc0@localhost> At 08:15 PM 8/7/2010 -0300, you wrote: >>> > GET LAMP is here >>> > >>>I'm hoping my copy will be here today. What coin# did you get? :) >>Are the rest of us supposed to have a clue about this? > > Ditto?! Oooh! ooh! This looks so cool. I placed my order 5 minutes ago. ----- --... ...-- -.. . -. ----. --.- --.- -... tpeters at nospam.mixcom.com (remove "nospam") N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) WEB: http://www.mixcom.com/tpeters 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W, Elevation 815', Grid Square EN53wc WAN/LAN/Telcom Analyst, Tech Writer, MCP, CCNA, Registered Linux User 385531 From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Sat Aug 7 21:55:45 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2010 23:55:45 -0300 Subject: GET LAMP is here References: <5.1.0.14.2.20100807213037.0cc9ddc0@localhost> Message-ID: <0c0901cb36a5$ff411470$0600000a@portajara> >Oooh! ooh! This looks so cool. I placed my order 5 minutes ago. COOL! COOL! COOOLLL!!! The coin is beautiful! :D From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Aug 7 22:16:15 2010 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Sat, 07 Aug 2010 21:16:15 -0600 Subject: GET LAMP is here In-Reply-To: <0c0901cb36a5$ff411470$0600000a@portajara> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20100807213037.0cc9ddc0@localhost> <0c0901cb36a5$ff411470$0600000a@portajara> Message-ID: <4C5E217F.1090108@jetnet.ab.ca> I am still trying to get into the CAVE... :) I guess I better power up the 8, and try my hand at adventure again this weekend. Ben. PS. The site looks nice too. From silent700 at gmail.com Sat Aug 7 23:50:33 2010 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2010 23:50:33 -0500 Subject: GET LAMP is here In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Aug 7, 2010 at 2:44 PM, Gene Buckle wrote: > I'm hoping my copy will be here today. ?What coin# did you get? :) I wasn't going to bother checking the mail today...but there it is! Coin #642. Any idea what # he started with? From geneb at deltasoft.com Sun Aug 8 00:02:25 2010 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2010 22:02:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: GET LAMP is here In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, 7 Aug 2010, Jason T wrote: > On Sat, Aug 7, 2010 at 2:44 PM, Gene Buckle wrote: >> I'm hoping my copy will be here today. ?What coin# did you get? :) > > I wasn't going to bother checking the mail today...but there it is! Coin #642. > > Any idea what # he started with? > 0. :) The coins were custom made just for the documentary. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Sun Aug 8 03:15:01 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun, 08 Aug 2010 09:15:01 +0100 Subject: Pronouncing acronyms (was Re: DEC acronyms) In-Reply-To: <943F9961A3AD4CCBB749EC14135A8A36@ANTONIOPC> References: <943F9961A3AD4CCBB749EC14135A8A36@ANTONIOPC> Message-ID: <4C5E6785.30708@philpem.me.uk> On 06/08/10 20:35, arcarlini at iee.org wrote: > Same deal with WD but they're even better: give them a credit card > and they'll send the new drive out first. You then send back the > broken one in whatever they sent the new one ... Maxtor used to do that too -- they called it an "Advance RMA". They'd send the new drive, and you had 30 days after it arrived to send them the old one. If you didn't send it back, they charged your credit card for the RRP of the new drive. You can guess what happened to that policy after the Seagate buyout... -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From jws at jwsss.com Sat Aug 7 02:15:30 2010 From: jws at jwsss.com (Jim Stephens) Date: Sat, 07 Aug 2010 00:15:30 -0700 Subject: FYI - Maryland Computer Museum article In-Reply-To: <4C5CA7B1.4070101@hachti.de> References: <4C574063.3070401@bitsavers.org> <4C5745AC.9080806@snarc.net> <4C574773.2070101@atarimuseum.com> <4C5CA7B1.4070101@hachti.de> Message-ID: <4C5D0812.2080604@jwsss.com> On 8/6/2010 5:24 PM, Philipp Hachtmann wrote: > On 03.08.2010 00:32, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: >> Not all of us have a former Naval Communications Research Base to setup >> our stuff in ;-) > I definitively prefer a few smaller medieval castles - they are far > more solid and emphasize the vintage feeling :-) > The multi-castle approach (worth a patent?) provides some redundancy > in case of should happen. It also enables all > of the four to sixteen possible visitors to visit your collection on > an ecologically reasonable basis. > > Oh dear, it's 2:22 a.m. ..... :-) 1 am PDT in Los Angeles. Just a note, I imagine running power for your mainframe exhibit is easier in the Naval Base than running it in the castle. From jws at jwsss.com Sun Aug 8 01:05:43 2010 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Sat, 07 Aug 2010 23:05:43 -0700 Subject: GET LAMP is here In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C5E4937.5070204@jwsss.com> There was a story on some page that there are 1000 coins, first few reserved for the club that funded him and 1-10 reserved for him (1,2 went to Don Wood). On 8/7/2010 10:02 PM, Gene Buckle wrote: > On Sat, 7 Aug 2010, Jason T wrote: > >> On Sat, Aug 7, 2010 at 2:44 PM, Gene Buckle wrote: >>> I'm hoping my copy will be here today. What coin# did you get? :) >> >> I wasn't going to bother checking the mail today...but there it is! >> Coin #642. >> >> Any idea what # he started with? >> > 0. :) > > The coins were custom made just for the documentary. > > g. > From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Sun Aug 8 03:56:33 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun, 08 Aug 2010 09:56:33 +0100 Subject: Pronouncing acronyms (was Re: DEC acronyms) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C5E7141.50402@philpem.me.uk> On 06/08/10 20:12, Tony Duell wrote: > which di not meet the advertised speicifcations (if they say 'built in > assembler; then i darn well expect there to be one). I wrote 2 letters, > the socond one including IRCs, and enver got a reply. The company? HP > (!). I will never buy another new HP product... It's a pity becasue I'd > been using their machines for many years until then, and had had > excelelnt customer service (not that I needed it very often). Depends what 'era' of HP you're talking about; if we're talking pre-Carly Fiorina, then I'm surprised. Any time after that... not surprising in the least. Seems they've had a run of bad CEOs -- Fiorina chopping the company into tiny little bits, Hurd's relentless firings (and allegations of "inappropriate behaviour", see http://consumerist.com/2010/08/hp-ceo-resigns-following-revelation-of-inappropriate-relationship.html )... And then you look at Agilent... "Oh, you're still using a 16500B? Great, here's all the software that was on the HP FTP site, including the Symbol Utility disc, and the manuals are on our website under Old/Obsolete Products, Manuals, 16500B Series." > As an aside, I've found a lot of lifetime (or exxtended) guarantees are > not worth the paper they're printed on. They either depend on having thr > thing checked/serviced my the manufacuter (cars often have this one...) > or the gurrantee covers parts, but you still have to pay for labour. And > they wont give you the bits to fit yourself. Of coruse most of the time > they simply inflate the labour charge to cover the cost of the parts... For some things it is worth having an "extended" guarantee. Certain household goods for instance (read: dishwasher, washing machine, ...) The dishwasher here has been repaired at least four times. It's had: Two power switches One controller board At least one water supply valve The washer hasn't fared any better: New door, latch, hinge and seals Controller board (twice) Motor wiring harness A couple of other bits I can't remember off-hand (thermal switches, that sort of thing). For those, the D&G warranty has paid for itself at least twice over. I had one on a Canon DSLR lens because it had something of a reputation for issues with the bearings and lock mechanism. Thus far, mine's behaved itself... touch wood :) > That's one reason I stick to older kit. I can fix it myself, not having > the hassle of sealing with those sort of lamebrains easily outwiehgts > having to track down faults with 'scope and logic analyer myself... :) -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Sun Aug 8 07:45:34 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Sun, 8 Aug 2010 09:45:34 -0300 Subject: GET LAMP is here References: <4C5E4937.5070204@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <007a01cb36f7$a152a0c0$0600000a@portajara> > There was a story on some page that there are 1000 coins, first few > reserved for the club that funded him and 1-10 reserved for him (1,2 went > to Don Wood). And #42 for some guy, which I don't know nor understand its meaning, since I'm so far away from text adventures ;) From jfoust at threedee.com Sun Aug 8 18:26:29 2010 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun, 08 Aug 2010 18:26:29 -0500 Subject: HP Omnibook 425 available In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201008090141.o791fDdk049087@billY.EZWIND.NET> Forwarded from email: At 05:09 PM 8/8/2010, you wrote: >Hi my name is Eli Yarborough and I have an old HP Omnibook 425. I cannot find any place online that buys or sells this type of computer. I saw your website and thought you could help. I don't know if my Omnibook is the type of computer you would want or collect but I was wondering if you could provide me with some general insight about it. I'm not necessarily trying to sell it but I want to know if a computer like this is in demand and whether or not it's worth anything. It still works like new and comes with Microsoft Word and Excel along with a few other features. I still have all the accessories that came with the computer (the manuals and charger) along with external memory cards and other add-ons. I would just like to know if you or anyone you know is looking to add this to their collection. It would be a huge help if you could provide me with any information you have about this computer. It certainly was a great computer in its day and a fascinating example of the rap! id cha nges in technology. Thanks for your time and help! > >Eli Yarborough > >NC Tech Sales >carolinatechsales at gmail.com From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Sun Aug 8 14:15:16 2010 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Sun, 8 Aug 2010 12:15:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: P112 board edits Message-ID: I'm almost ready to start taking orders for P112 kits now. Before that I need some help from someone who knows how to edit gerbers. The edits are pretty minor, but I lack the appropriate software. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Aug 8 14:06:41 2010 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Sun, 08 Aug 2010 13:06:41 -0600 Subject: FYI - Maryland Computer Museum article In-Reply-To: <4C5D0812.2080604@jwsss.com> References: <4C574063.3070401@bitsavers.org> <4C5745AC.9080806@snarc.net> <4C574773.2070101@atarimuseum.com> <4C5CA7B1.4070101@hachti.de> <4C5D0812.2080604@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <4C5F0041.60105@jetnet.ab.ca> Jim Stephens wrote: > Just a note, I imagine running power for your mainframe exhibit is > easier in the Naval Base than running it in the castle. > Egor, up with the lighting rod now! Throw the switch! *KABOOM* *VAPORIZE* YES MASTER, WE HAVE THE POWER NOW! From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Aug 8 12:26:38 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 8 Aug 2010 18:26:38 +0100 (BST) Subject: FYI - Maryland Computer Museum articleu In-Reply-To: <8c5338f08ef9fb7652ca3b2ef334437b@cs.ubc.ca> from "Brent Hilpert" at Aug 7, 10 01:47:09 pm Message-ID: > >> That would explain why , Dr Frankenstein movies all use analog > >> equipment. :) > > > > Would it? Many analogue instruemnts come/came in 19" rack cases too... > > But analog equipment is continuously variable, so it will fit around > curves. I would suggest you don;t try this with an oscilloscope :-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Aug 8 12:28:13 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 8 Aug 2010 18:28:13 +0100 (BST) Subject: Iomega Bernoulli Box 20+20 (A220H) In-Reply-To: <4C5DD05D.9090906@brutman.com> from "Michael B. Brutman" at Aug 7, 10 04:30:05 pm Message-ID: > Special thanks to ChuckG for nudging me in the write direction.. It's As opposed to the read direction? Sorry, couldn't resist... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Aug 8 12:54:37 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 8 Aug 2010 18:54:37 +0100 (BST) Subject: Pronouncing acronyms (was Re: DEC acronyms) In-Reply-To: <4C5E7141.50402@philpem.me.uk> from "Philip Pemberton" at Aug 8, 10 09:56:33 am Message-ID: > > On 06/08/10 20:12, Tony Duell wrote: > > which di not meet the advertised speicifcations (if they say 'built in > > assembler; then i darn well expect there to be one). I wrote 2 letters, > > the socond one including IRCs, and enver got a reply. The company? HP > > (!). I will never buy another new HP product... It's a pity becasue I'd > > been using their machines for many years until then, and had had > > excelelnt customer service (not that I needed it very often). > > Depends what 'era' of HP you're talking about; if we're talking > pre-Carly Fiorina, then I'm surprised. Any time after that... not > surprising in the least. You got it/. It was not too long after the company was ruine by Ms Fiorina... > And then you look at Agilent... Indeed. I have bene pleasntly suprised by the old manuals you can download for free froom their site. Nothing specifically computer-related. but plenty of interesting manuals on classic test gear. Proper service manuals too. > For some things it is worth having an "extended" guarantee. Certain > household goods for instance (read: dishwasher, washing machine, ...) I suspoect the cost of me fixing it myself is a lot less than the ectended guarantee. > The dishwasher here has been repaired at least four times. It's had: > Two power switches > One controller board > At least one water supply valve > > The washer hasn't fared any better: > New door, latch, hinge and seals > Controller board (twice) > Motor wiring harness > A couple of other bits I can't remember off-hand (thermal switches, > that sort of thing). Might I suggest buying better quality :-).... So far, touch wood, the dishwasher has needed no repairs-- it's on of the last ones made with a motor-and-camshaft timer, so I can fix it properly. The washing machine has needed a notor controller (as luick would have it, it was the microcontrolelr that had failed, and they won't sell just the chip :-(). Yes, I've kept the old one, if anything fails on the replacement other than the microcontroller, I will do component-level repair. YEs, I do have the wiring diagrams, parts lists, exploded views, etc. > For those, the D&G warranty has paid for itself at least twice over. I > had one on a Canon DSLR lens because it had something of a reputation > for issues with the bearings and lock mechanism. Thus far, mine's > behaved itself... touch wood :) Fortuately all that goers wrong with the lenses for my cameras is that the grease goes rock-hard in the focussing helical threads (a pain to clean out, but possible), and occasionally oil migrates onto the diaphagm blades and causes them to stick (ditto). No electronics to go wrong, of course... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Aug 8 12:25:03 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 8 Aug 2010 18:25:03 +0100 (BST) Subject: GET LAMP is here In-Reply-To: from "Gene Buckle" at Aug 7, 10 01:23:47 pm Message-ID: > > Are the rest of us supposed to have a clue about this? > > > http://www.getlamp.com - Before the first person shooter, there was the > second person thinker. :) If this habit of giving a URL as an asnwer with no explanation continues, I am going to start answering questions with things like 'third page of the 7th notebook on the top shelf in my workshop'... But anyway, I now see it's a documentary about the history of text adventure games. Why couldn't somebody seay that? There is one thing that really grated on me when I looked at the site. And that is the lamp shown on the homepage, which is what we sould call a 'huricane lamp' and which burns parafin (kerosene). IIRC, in both Zork and Colossal Cave, the lamp is battery-powered, in fact in the latter I rememebr purchasing spare batties from a vending machine in one of the mazes. And in both games you could turn the lamp on without needing matches (which were one of the objects in at least one version of Zork), useful, since you'ed turn it off when you could to save it (it only lasted for a certain number of turns IIRC). 'A hollow voice says "Cretin"' :-) -tnny From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Sun Aug 8 12:21:27 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun, 08 Aug 2010 18:21:27 +0100 Subject: GET LAMP is here In-Reply-To: <007a01cb36f7$a152a0c0$0600000a@portajara> References: <4C5E4937.5070204@jwsss.com> <007a01cb36f7$a152a0c0$0600000a@portajara> Message-ID: <4C5EE797.9050902@philpem.me.uk> On 08/08/10 13:45, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > And #42 for some guy, which I don't know nor understand its meaning, > since I'm so far away from text adventures ;) Don't panic! That's a Hitch-Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy reference. 42 = The Meaning of Life, The Universe And Everything. The actual question which leads to the answer of the Meaning of Life The Universe And Everything is still up for debate :) "So long and thanks for all the fish," -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From ats at offog.org Sun Aug 8 10:37:13 2010 From: ats at offog.org (Adam Sampson) Date: Sun, 08 Aug 2010 16:37:13 +0100 Subject: GET LAMP is here In-Reply-To: <4C5E4937.5070204@jwsss.com> (jim s.'s message of "Sat, 07 Aug 2010 23:05:43 -0700") References: <4C5E4937.5070204@jwsss.com> Message-ID: jim s writes: > There was a story on some page that there are 1000 coins, first few > reserved for the club that funded him and 1-10 reserved for him (1,2 > went to Don Wood). That'd be this page: http://inventory.getlamp.com/2010/04/19/coins-and-numbering-and-how-that-goes/ The blog is well worth reading (as Jason Scott's writing usually is), if you're interested in seeing what goes into making and selling a documentary like this. -- Adam Sampson From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Sun Aug 8 23:44:03 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2010 01:44:03 -0300 Subject: Pronouncing acronyms (was Re: DEC acronyms) References: Message-ID: <039d01cb377d$d8fa8ed0$0600000a@portajara> > Indeed. I have bene pleasntly suprised by the old manuals you can > download for free froom their site. Nothing specifically > computer-related. but plenty of interesting manuals on classic test gear. > Proper service manuals too. And they are trying to build a better archive for older equipment. I uploaded mostly everything about the HP16500A to their servers, and it will be avaiable soon. From mardy at pernetics.com Sun Aug 8 08:18:02 2010 From: mardy at pernetics.com (Marden P. Marshall) Date: Sun, 8 Aug 2010 09:18:02 -0400 Subject: Todd Fishcer's IMSAI 8048 Doll House up for sale on eBay Message-ID: <41E8BA24-1418-43D6-947E-97D24D1ADC2D@pernetics.com> I hope that this ends up on display in a museum and not sitting in some collectors basement... Item number: 230508849284 -Mardy From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sun Aug 8 18:43:33 2010 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sun, 8 Aug 2010 16:43:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: does anyone know what this is (C64 Snapshot cartridge) Message-ID: <347113.16526.qm@web65506.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> http://cgi.ebay.com/Snapshot-64-Cartridge-Commodore-64-/170523686285?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0 the seller is too brain dead to describe what it is, despite stating that it's tested and working. I seem to have a vague recollection of what this is, but actually I'm not totally sure. From bqt at softjar.se Sun Aug 8 19:20:57 2010 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2010 02:20:57 +0200 Subject: PDP-11/44 mystery card In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C5F49E9.8040504@softjar.se> Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > Hi > > I've acquired two PDP-11/44 and have just now gone throught the list of > cards in the cpu-boxes and the spares. Here is a list: > > http://www.update.uu.se/~pontus/slask/11-44-kort.txt Nice! You'll be able to put together atleast one really nice 11/44 from that. I notice one FP11 in the list. > Also I wonder what the > "M7251 KG11-A U Network interface XOR and CRC block check option" Just what it says, Network interface XOR and CRC block check option. :-) Ok. The long answer then... You know about CRC-16 I assume? This is hardware to generate that. You shove data to the card, one word at a time, and you can read out the CRC value. This card is, however, not very popular or useful, since software CRC routines are actually faster on the PDP-11. DECnet can use this card if you have it, but it's recommended that it not be used for this fact. (The card is actually more generic, and can be used to generate any kind of CRC checksum, not just CRC-16.) > "M3110 DRCSA U Protocol assist #1 w/special character check and CRC (DEC/DLC/DRCSA)" > "M3111 DRCSA U Protocol assist #2 w/special character check and CRC (DEC/DLC/DRCSA)" No clear idea about those two... Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From quapla at xs4all.nl Mon Aug 9 03:44:24 2010 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (E. Groenenberg) Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2010 10:44:24 +0200 Subject: PDP-11/44 mystery card In-Reply-To: <4C5F49E9.8040504@softjar.se> References: <4C5F49E9.8040504@softjar.se> Message-ID: <026a58d8a1f1b300b4354b1c4d87c596.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> snip snip snip > >> "M3110 DRCSA U Protocol assist #1 w/special character check >> and CRC (DEC/DLC/DRCSA)" >> "M3111 DRCSA U Protocol assist #2 w/special character check >> and CRC (DEC/DLC/DRCSA)" > > No clear idea about those two... I checked with a co-worker (who did service PDP-11's) He thinks it may have been used as X.25 router/ lineinterface. Usually there is also a M3112 card (boot/terminator for DECSA) Ed -- Dit is een HTML vrije email / This is an HTML free email. From pete at dunnington.plus.com Mon Aug 9 05:06:15 2010 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2010 11:06:15 +0100 Subject: BC19V-02 Message-ID: <4C5FD317.20504@dunnington.plus.com> Anyone need a BC19V-02 cable? I believe it's a modem cable for a microVAX option, and I have no idea why I have it. 50-pin female D connector one end, DB25M the other (not all pin positions populated). Free for cost of postage from York, UK. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Aug 9 07:40:57 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2010 05:40:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: does anyone know what this is (C64 Snapshot cartridge) In-Reply-To: <347113.16526.qm@web65506.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> from Chris M at "Aug 8, 10 04:43:33 pm" Message-ID: <201008091240.o79Cew8G015686@floodgap.com> > http://cgi.ebay.com/Snapshot-64-Cartridge-Commodore-64-/170523686285?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0 > > the seller is too brain dead to describe what it is, despite stating that > it's tested and working. I seem to have a vague recollection of what this > is, but actually I'm not totally sure. Early freezer cartridge. This is what later turned into the Super Snapshot, also by LMS. I have an SSv5. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- "I'd love to go out with you, but I'm stuck in the fourth lotus position." - From ajp166 at verizon.net Mon Aug 9 08:01:18 2010 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2010 09:01:18 -0400 Subject: Todd Fishcer's IMSAI 8048 Doll House up for sale on eBay In-Reply-To: <41E8BA24-1418-43D6-947E-97D24D1ADC2D@pernetics.com> References: <41E8BA24-1418-43D6-947E-97D24D1ADC2D@pernetics.com> Message-ID: <4C5FFC1E.20700@verizon.net> On 08/08/2010 09:18 AM, Marden P. Marshall wrote: > I hope that this ends up on display in a museum and not sitting in some collectors basement... > > Item number: 230508849284 > > -Mardy > > > I'd seen that at a show many decades ago. No so oddly, I have one of the apparently very rare controllers the IMSAI IMP48 SBC. It's a fun board to work with and I even made a simplified copy so I could pack the IMSAI version away. The 8035/9 (romless 8048/9) is an ineresting chip to program and esy to understand. Since they are available and even the EProm/rom parts have a rom disable pin all the flavors are useful even programmed ones. Allison From christian_liendo at yahoo.com Mon Aug 9 08:28:50 2010 From: christian_liendo at yahoo.com (Christian Liendo) Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2010 06:28:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The gold C64 on ebay?? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <64342.40522.qm@web113502.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> http://cgi.ebay.com/Commodore-C64-Gold-Edition-1000247-/110569624763?pt=Klassische_Computer From geneb at deltasoft.com Mon Aug 9 08:33:25 2010 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2010 06:33:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: GET LAMP is here In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, 8 Aug 2010, Tony Duell wrote: >>> Are the rest of us supposed to have a clue about this? >>> >> http://www.getlamp.com - Before the first person shooter, there was the >> second person thinker. :) > > If this habit of giving a URL as an asnwer with no explanation continues, > I am going to start answering questions with things like 'third page of > the 7th notebook on the top shelf in my workshop'... > Well it was that or a Let Me Google That For You link. If that notebook has been scanned and is available via a URL equivalent to its physical location, I'd be all for it. Otherwise, quit whining. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Aug 9 08:35:30 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2010 06:35:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The gold C64 on ebay?? In-Reply-To: <64342.40522.qm@web113502.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> from Christian Liendo at "Aug 9, 10 06:28:50 am" Message-ID: <201008091335.o79DZU5a018104@floodgap.com> > http://cgi.ebay.com/Commodore-C64-Gold-Edition-1000247-/110569624763 That's one of the real ones. Wow. For those who don't know, http://www.floodgap.com/retrobits/ckb/secret/remix.html -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Our policy is, when in doubt, do the right thing. -- R. L. Ash ------------- From curt at atarimuseum.com Mon Aug 9 08:52:03 2010 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2010 09:52:03 -0400 Subject: The gold C64 on ebay?? In-Reply-To: <201008091335.o79DZU5a018104@floodgap.com> References: <201008091335.o79DZU5a018104@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <4C600803.8040407@atarimuseum.com> Besides what looks like a really cheap looking gold paint spray job, is there anyone truly unique about the unit? Does it have the signatures of the engineers in it or anything that shows it to be anything more then a C64 with some spray paint? I'm not doubting its authenticity, I would just like to know if there is anything that truly sets it apart. Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> http://cgi.ebay.com/Commodore-C64-Gold-Edition-1000247-/110569624763 >> > > That's one of the real ones. Wow. For those who don't know, > > http://www.floodgap.com/retrobits/ckb/secret/remix.html > > From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Aug 9 08:55:41 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2010 06:55:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The gold C64 on ebay?? In-Reply-To: <4C600803.8040407@atarimuseum.com> from "Curt @ Atari Museum" at "Aug 9, 10 09:52:03 am" Message-ID: <201008091355.o79DtfHc015498@floodgap.com> > Besides what looks like a really cheap looking gold paint spray job, is > there anyone truly unique about the unit? Does it have the signatures > of the engineers in it or anything that shows it to be anything more > then a C64 with some spray paint? > > I'm not doubting its authenticity, I would just like to know if there is > anything that truly sets it apart. Nothing particularly otherwise. They are simply hand marked, and the unit is dipped in gold paint (this comes from Jim Butterfield). Just a purely historical commemorative item. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- The whippings shall continue until morale improves. ------------------------ From geneb at deltasoft.com Mon Aug 9 08:58:44 2010 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2010 06:58:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The gold C64 on ebay?? In-Reply-To: <4C600803.8040407@atarimuseum.com> References: <201008091335.o79DZU5a018104@floodgap.com> <4C600803.8040407@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 9 Aug 2010, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > Besides what looks like a really cheap looking gold paint spray job, is there > anyone truly unique about the unit? Does it have the signatures of the > engineers in it or anything that shows it to be anything more then a C64 with > some spray paint? > > I'm not doubting its authenticity, I would just like to know if there is > anything that truly sets it apart. > Afaik, it commemorates(sp) the 1,000,000th C-64 off the production line in Germany. Isn't that unique enough for you? There weren't many of those plaques made. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From dgahling at hotmail.com Mon Aug 9 11:34:54 2010 From: dgahling at hotmail.com (Dan Gahlinger) Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2010 12:34:54 -0400 Subject: The gold C64 on ebay?? In-Reply-To: References: <201008091335.o79DZU5a018104@floodgap.com>, <4C600803.8040407@atarimuseum.com>, Message-ID: But according to the historic info, it's NOT actually the 1millionth off the line, they missed it, and grabbed one at random. so much less interesting in that case > Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2010 06:58:44 -0700 > From: geneb at deltasoft.com > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: The gold C64 on ebay?? > > On Mon, 9 Aug 2010, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > > > Besides what looks like a really cheap looking gold paint spray job, is there > > anyone truly unique about the unit? Does it have the signatures of the > > engineers in it or anything that shows it to be anything more then a C64 with > > some spray paint? > > > > I'm not doubting its authenticity, I would just like to know if there is > > anything that truly sets it apart. > > > > Afaik, it commemorates(sp) the 1,000,000th C-64 off the production line in > Germany. Isn't that unique enough for you? There weren't many of those > plaques made. > > g. > -- > Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 > http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. > http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project > > ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment > A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. > http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Aug 9 11:52:51 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2010 09:52:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The gold C64 on ebay?? In-Reply-To: from Dan Gahlinger at "Aug 9, 10 12:34:54 pm" Message-ID: <201008091652.o79GqpAP013898@floodgap.com> > But according to the historic info, it's NOT actually the 1millionth off > the line, they missed it, and grabbed one at random. That's the American Gold 64. This is the German Jubilee 64. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- This manual has been carefully for errors to make sure correct. -- classiccmp From RichA at vulcan.com Mon Aug 9 13:20:09 2010 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2010 11:20:09 -0700 Subject: That darned PDP font In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: From: Jason T Sent: Saturday, August 07, 2010 11:35 AM > This probably comes up every other year or so, but I am looking for > the font used on older DEC literature. It may or may not be the one > used for the actual PDP11 logo (only three character examples there ;) > but it is the one used on the covers of the old Handbooks, like this > one: > http://gargravarr.cc.utexas.edu/cc/artifacts/dec-pdp-11-processor-handbook-cover.jpg > There are many similar round fonts out there, and one could make the > pdp11 logo out of them, but the other characters fail. > Has this mystery been solved? Internal font? All hand drawn? http://vt100.net/dec/logo NB: The word you want is either "logotype" or "typeface". A font is made up of physical objects, usually bundled together. Also note that the letter style used in the logotype and in the name "PDP-11" is not the only style used by DEC. Cf. the lettering on the PDP-7 front panel, and the front covers of the preliminary and final PDP-7 handbooks http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/PDP-7/F-75P_PDP7prelimUM_Dec64.pdf http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/PDP-7/F-75_PDP-7userHbk_Jun65.pdf There's "older DEC literature" and there's "*older* DEC literature". Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.PDPplanet.org/ http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From legalize at xmission.com Mon Aug 9 14:40:14 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2010 13:40:14 -0600 Subject: That darned PDP font In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 09 Aug 2010 11:20:09 -0700. Message-ID: In article , Rich Alderson writes: > http://vt100.net/dec/logo > > NB: The word you want is either "logotype" or "typeface". A font is made > up of physical objects, usually bundled together. That page refers to work done by Ned Batchelder without providing a direct link to his Adobe Illustrator/PS/PDF file containing the logo. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From schoedel at kw.igs.net Mon Aug 9 14:43:47 2010 From: schoedel at kw.igs.net (schoedel at kw.igs.net) Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2010 15:43:47 -0400 Subject: That darned PDP font In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20100809191343.M69029@kw.igs.net> > > This probably comes up every other year or so, but I am looking for > > the font used on older DEC literature. It may or may not be the one > > used for the actual PDP11 logo (only three character examples there ;) > > but it is the one used on the covers of the old Handbooks, like this > > one: > > > http://gargravarr.cc.utexas.edu/cc/artifacts/dec-pdp-11-processor-handbook-cover.jpg > > http://vt100.net/dec/logo My impression was that he was not referring to the |d|i|g|i|t|a|l| logo, but rather the circle-based style used on the rest of that cover. I've spent some time off and on (but apparently not "on" in the last four years) on a re-creation. I started with the outline version, because there are larger samples available in the chapter headings of those handbooks, and when I last left off had completed a draft of the alphabet (lower case only, of course), most punctuation, and a couple digits. I have never found any matching commercial fonts. In the outline form, adjacent letters overlap by the stroke width, so they were obviously not set in metal type, but those books are late enough to have been phototypeset. -- Kevin Schoedel VA3TCS From silent700 at gmail.com Mon Aug 9 15:32:41 2010 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2010 15:32:41 -0500 Subject: That darned PDP font In-Reply-To: <20100809191343.M69029@kw.igs.net> References: <20100809191343.M69029@kw.igs.net> Message-ID: On Mon, Aug 9, 2010 at 2:43 PM, wrote: > My impression was that he was not referring to the |d|i|g|i|t|a|l| logo, but > rather the circle-based style used on the rest of that cover. Correct. I should have said "the typeface used for the text 'processor handbook' on that cover." I've seen discussions of the logo before. Interesting in its own right, but has been better covered. > I've spent some time off and on (but apparently not "on" in the last four years) > on a re-creation. I started with the outline version, because there are larger > samples available in the chapter headings of those handbooks, and when I last > left off had completed a draft of the alphabet (lower case only, of course), > most punctuation, and a couple digits. I'd be interested in making use of this if you've got it, even in its present for (lowers are just fine.) It will be for an appropriate, non-profit, ccmp cause ;) > I have never found any matching commercial fonts. In the outline form, adjacent > letters overlap by the stroke width, so they were obviously not set in metal Yeah, I can see how "pdp11" has been run together. Not hard to approximate with some patience in Pshop (for an amateur like me, anyway.) -- jht From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 9 15:24:10 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2010 21:24:10 +0100 (BST) Subject: PDP-11/44 mystery card In-Reply-To: <026a58d8a1f1b300b4354b1c4d87c596.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> from "E. Groenenberg" at Aug 9, 10 10:44:24 am Message-ID: > > snip snip snip > > > >> "M3110 DRCSA U Protocol assist #1 w/special character check > >> and CRC (DEC/DLC/DRCSA)" > >> "M3111 DRCSA U Protocol assist #2 w/special character check > >> and CRC (DEC/DLC/DRCSA)" > > > > No clear idea about those two... > > I checked with a co-worker (who did service PDP-11's) > He thinks it may have been used as X.25 router/ lineinterface. > Usually there is also a M3112 card (boot/terminator for DECSA) I _knew_ I recognised thase numbers... You are essentially right. They are essentially a custom 'processor' for X25 and other protocols used in the DECSA (Digital Ethernet Communications Server Aparatus or something similar). A DECSA is a special cabinet containing a PDP11/24 CPU, a boot/terminator board, those 2 protocol cards, RAM, a DEUNA (ethernet interface) and one or more line cards (dual height, in special slots). It's a sort of terminal server/X25 interface/etc I have one, and it led me to propose 'ARD's law of DECSA construction' which states 'The lower the importnace of a part of a DECSA, the more screws hold it in place'. This is illustrated by The logic boards plu in with no screws The PSU(s) are held in by 2 screws (each, if you hve 2 PSUs) The fan tray is held in by 4 screws (this is less important than the above, the thing will run for a short time with no fan tray). But the metal grille over the fan tray is held on by an amazing 28 screws (I had to take them all out and put them all back to remvoe the fan tray before removing the backplane... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 9 15:49:55 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2010 21:49:55 +0100 (BST) Subject: GET LAMP is here In-Reply-To: from "Gene Buckle" at Aug 9, 10 06:33:25 am Message-ID: > >>> Are the rest of us supposed to have a clue about this? > >>> > >> http://www.getlamp.com - Before the first person shooter, there was the > >> second person thinker. :) > > > > If this habit of giving a URL as an asnwer with no explanation continues, > > I am going to start answering questions with things like 'third page of > > the 7th notebook on the top shelf in my workshop'... > > > Well it was that or a Let Me Google That For You link. I don't see why a comment of the form 'It's a documentary abotu the heistory of text adventures, for more information see ' is impossible. > > If that notebook has been scanned and is available via a URL equivalent to > its physical location, I'd be all for it. Otherwise, quit whining. The point is that not all of us read e-mail on line, not all of us have a web browser (or more specifically a graphical web browser) on the machine we use to read mail (or in my case on any of my machines). Which means to follow such a URL involves almost as much work as you getting to see one of my workshop notebooks. And I want to know if that effort is worthwhile. -tony From geneb at deltasoft.com Mon Aug 9 16:14:51 2010 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2010 14:14:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: GET LAMP is here In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 9 Aug 2010, Tony Duell wrote: >>> If this habit of giving a URL as an asnwer with no explanation continues, >>> I am going to start answering questions with things like 'third page of >>> the 7th notebook on the top shelf in my workshop'... >>> >> Well it was that or a Let Me Google That For You link. > > I don't see why a comment of the form 'It's a documentary abotu the > heistory of text adventures, for more information see ' is impossible. > Well frankly, if I had any idea that you'd go Old Man McClusky on me while waving your cane in my face and raving about these damn kids, I just may have. Unfortunately I constantly forget that you like to party like it's 1979. >> >> If that notebook has been scanned and is available via a URL equivalent to >> its physical location, I'd be all for it. Otherwise, quit whining. > > The point is that not all of us read e-mail on line, not all of us have a > web browser (or more specifically a graphical web browser) on the machine > we use to read mail (or in my case on any of my machines). Which means to > follow such a URL involves almost as much work as you getting to see one > of my workshop notebooks. And I want to know if that effort is worthwhile. > I use Alpine to read email (text only) and have been known to use Lynx (text only browser) on occasion. Both of which are likely available if you're using pretty much any flavor of Unix, VMS, Linux or DOS. Because we've pretty much already defined that I'm an asshole, it should be added that I'm not terribly understanding of peoples' self-configured difficulty. You could easily build a machine that does all these new-fangled and modern webby things and yet you grump at ME because you have no way to copy & paste a url into any kind of browser. Yes, I like the trailing edge of computing, but you fell off of it and the guy pushing the stone wheelbarrow behind us is going to grind you to paste if you don't catch up. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Aug 9 17:16:50 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2010 15:16:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The gold C64 on ebay?? In-Reply-To: <4C600803.8040407@atarimuseum.com> References: <201008091335.o79DZU5a018104@floodgap.com> <4C600803.8040407@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <20100809151622.W21499@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 9 Aug 2010, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > Besides what looks like a really cheap looking gold paint spray job, is > there anyone truly unique about the unit? Does it have the signatures > of the engineers in it or anything that shows it to be anything more > then a C64 with some spray paint? > > I'm not doubting its authenticity, I would just like to know if there is > anything that truly sets it apart. Possibly the provenance of WHO sprayed the gold paint on it? From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Aug 9 17:20:38 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2010 15:20:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The gold C64 on ebay?? In-Reply-To: <4C600803.8040407@atarimuseum.com> References: <201008091335.o79DZU5a018104@floodgap.com> <4C600803.8040407@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <20100809151711.N21499@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 9 Aug 2010, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > Besides what looks like a really cheap looking gold paint spray job, is > there anyone truly unique about the unit? Does it have the signatures > of the engineers in it or anything that shows it to be anything more > then a C64 with some spray paint? Tony Cole (with the Cray parts) used to peddle generic clones (V.I.P.C.) He assembled a machine with the best of all of the parts that he had available to him, and gold-plated the case "for RF shielding". He got an amazing amount of "free ink", including front cover pictures in magazines, that more than made up for the extravagant cost. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cclist at sydex.com Mon Aug 9 17:31:38 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2010 15:31:38 -0700 Subject: The gold C64 on ebay?? In-Reply-To: <20100809151711.N21499@shell.lmi.net> References: <201008091335.o79DZU5a018104@floodgap.com>, <4C600803.8040407@atarimuseum.com>, <20100809151711.N21499@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4C601F5A.15420.1872FEB@cclist.sydex.com> On 9 Aug 2010 at 15:20, Fred Cisin wrote: > He got an amazing amount of "free ink", including front cover pictures > in magazines, that more than made up for the extravagant cost. I'd like to see one bronzed like a pair of baby shoes. --Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Aug 9 17:35:24 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2010 15:35:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The gold C64 on ebay?? In-Reply-To: <4C601F5A.15420.1872FEB@cclist.sydex.com> References: <201008091335.o79DZU5a018104@floodgap.com>, <4C600803.8040407@atarimuseum.com>, <20100809151711.N21499@shell.lmi.net> <4C601F5A.15420.1872FEB@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20100809153448.A21499@shell.lmi.net> > > He got an amazing amount of "free ink", including front cover pictures > > in magazines, that more than made up for the extravagant cost. On Mon, 9 Aug 2010, Chuck Guzis wrote: > I'd like to see one bronzed like a pair of baby shoes. That would be nice, but it would not attract the media like GOLD. From cclist at sydex.com Mon Aug 9 18:07:29 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2010 16:07:29 -0700 Subject: The gold C64 on ebay?? In-Reply-To: <20100809153448.A21499@shell.lmi.net> References: <201008091335.o79DZU5a018104@floodgap.com>, <4C601F5A.15420.1872FEB@cclist.sydex.com>, <20100809153448.A21499@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4C6027C1.9084.1A80205@cclist.sydex.com> On 9 Aug 2010 at 15:35, Fred Cisin wrote: > That would be nice, but it would not attract the media like GOLD. The sad fact is that most of the media couldn't tell the difference between real gold and PVD titanium nitride. --Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Aug 9 18:48:10 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2010 16:48:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: GET LAMP is here In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20100809163517.M21499@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 9 Aug 2010, Tony Duell wrote: > I don't see why a comment of the form 'It's a documentary abotu the > heistory of text adventures, for more information see ' is impossible. I agree. I often need to read several messages further on in a thread to figure out what is being talked about. "XYZZY" or "PLUGH" would be more recognizable. But, like many puzzles in Colossal Cave, it's obvious AFTER you know it, but not before. > follow such a URL involves almost as much work as you getting to see one > of my workshop notebooks. And I want to know if that effort is worthwhile. If we could scan the entire existing collection, then the effort probably would be worthwhile. I'm on dial-up right now. A URL with no explanation just seems rather inconsiderate. Oh, well. But, it's not just here. The college adminiatrators tend to send a 4 line paragraph as a MICROS~1 WEIRD attachment with no explanation other than "FYI" or "read the attachment". Meanwhile, the "Help Desk" sends out several announcements per week saying, "Please stop opening attachments that come with email, and please stop replying to messages that ask what your password is!" -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From ragooman at gmail.com Mon Aug 9 19:00:27 2010 From: ragooman at gmail.com (Dan Roganti) Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2010 20:00:27 -0400 Subject: GET LAMP is here In-Reply-To: <20100809163517.M21499@shell.lmi.net> References: <20100809163517.M21499@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: why can't we all just get...Lamp ? ;) -- --http://www.vintagecomputer.net/ragooman/ From ian_primus at yahoo.com Mon Aug 9 19:42:16 2010 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2010 17:42:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: EPROM programming (27c160's) Message-ID: <992230.97947.qm@web52604.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Well, I am stumped here. I have been fighting with this for a while and I can't figure it out... I use an old Needham's PB-10 EPROM programmer. Best device programmer ever, as far as I'm concerned. It's fast, reliable, and the software is so nice and easy to use. Only problem - it's old, and doesn't support 16 bit devices. I really need to be able to program 27c160 and 27c322 devices. So, I built an adapter. I bought a 16bit adapter intended for those cheap and nasty Willem programmers. I made some minor modifications to use it with my Needhams, and added toggle switches for the upper address lines. Now, I can program larger devices in chunks. This worked perfectly for the couple of chips I had at the time - two 27c160's and two 27c800's. So, I bought more chips. 27c160's and 27c322's. The 27c322's work flawlessly. I can program them in four passes, the programmer thinks it's programming a 27c080. But 27c160s... I am having horrible luck with them. A couple out of the batch programmed. The rest did not. I was able to fill them with zeroes, but couldn't program data - it kept erroring out at various stages. Tried erasing/reburning, same thing. Finally got fed up and bought another batch from a different seller, assuming I just had some bad ones. Nope. SAME problem. I noticed a pattern: On chips with a date code before about 2000, the die is larger, and none of these want to program. On chips with a date code after 2000, the die is smaller, and some of them program perfectly, others get most of the way through before erroring out. In all cases, I'm working with ST brand chips - I haven't found any other manufacturer available. So, carefully reading the datasheet, I notice that the 27c160 wants a program pulse of 50us. The chip that the programmer thinks it's programming, a 27c040, uses a programming pulse of 100ns. The programming waveforms between a 27c160 and a 27c040 look the same to me, besides that. But it would seem that my problems lie with the waveform being incorrect, and newer chips being less picky about it than the older chips of the same part number. Now, I'm stumped. I *really* want to make this programmer program these chips. It does everything else properly, including program 27c322's with this adapter. Now, I know the adapter is wired correctly, because I have programmed newer rev 27c160's properly, and they have worked perfectly in their intended purpose. The adapter is wired up such that in 27c322 mode, the programmer is used as if it were a 27c080, and in 27c160 mode the programmer is used as if it were a 27c040. I did it this way due to the pinouts of the devices and the required programming algorithms. Basically, I am wondering if any of our resident gurus have seen behavior like this with EPROMs, and if there may be anything I can do to shorten pulses, buffer, or something to get this to program... or, if anyone just *happens* to have the source code to the EMP software laying around somewhere... Yeah, I know, long shot. Failing that, does anyone have a suggestion of an EPROM programmer that I can buy that will program 27c160's. Preferably something that can be operated from DOS over a parallel or serial port, or better yet, an ISA card. -Ian From dkelvey at hotmail.com Mon Aug 9 20:39:10 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2010 18:39:10 -0700 Subject: SparcBook Tadpole In-Reply-To: <992230.97947.qm@web52604.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <992230.97947.qm@web52604.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi I just got a old SparcBook Tadpole. I checked on the web and all they have is info about newer models ( like G3 and G3S ). This one is old. Weighs a ton. and has a small LCD screen. The batteries have failed and they look like they are most likely NiCads. The pack says 12V and it has 12 cells. I'd think that NiMetalHydride would have fewer cells. It needs a little internal cleaning but boots without the battery. The next problem is that I don't have the password. I'm wondering if there is a way to clear the password files from openboot so that I can log on as root? Dwight From legalize at xmission.com Mon Aug 9 21:37:45 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2010 20:37:45 -0600 Subject: GET LAMP is here In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 09 Aug 2010 20:00:27 -0400. Message-ID: get flame ok flame duell The flames engulf the poor adventurer and leave him writhing in agony as his crispy torso falls to a heap on the ground. You are at the door to the SAGE command center. There is a corpse here. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Aug 9 21:51:24 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2010 22:51:24 -0400 Subject: SparcBook Tadpole In-Reply-To: References: <992230.97947.qm@web52604.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4C60BEAC.5080609@neurotica.com> On 8/9/10 9:39 PM, dwight elvey wrote: > I just got a old SparcBook Tadpole. That would be "Tadpole SparcBook". =) Nice score! I used a 3GS for years, back when they were new. Good, solid, fast machines with nice bright displays. > I checked on the web and all they have is info > about newer models ( like G3 and G3S ). The 3G and 3GS are basically SPARCstation-5s in laptop form-factors, if memory serves. Sun4m architecture. If yours predates those, it'll be a SPARCstation-1/1+/2 processor, which is sun4c architecture. Both are 32-bit. > This one is old. Weighs a ton. and has a small LCD > screen. > The batteries have failed and they look like they are > most likely NiCads. The pack says 12V and it has 12 > cells. I'd think that NiMetalHydride would have fewer > cells. Both NiCd and NiMH chemistries have nominal cell voltages of 1.2V. > It needs a little internal cleaning but boots without > the battery. > The next problem is that I don't have the password. > I'm wondering if there is a way to clear the password > files from openboot so that I can log on as root? What OS is it booting? A lot of what we do will be determined by that. It's likely SunOS 4.x, probably 4.1.x. Please find out for sure. Then...If you can get to an OpenBoot prompt, you can type "boot -s" to boot into single-user mode. That should get you straight to a root shell if it's running the earlier BSD-based SunOS 4.x. Let me know when/if you can get that far, then I'll help you through getting rid of the root password. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mdavidson1963 at gmail.com Mon Aug 9 21:51:37 2010 From: mdavidson1963 at gmail.com (Mark Davidson) Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2010 19:51:37 -0700 Subject: New acquisition... Message-ID: All the boxes finally arrived (and I still have to go through everything), but I am the proud owner of an Epson QX-10... with original manuals, newsletters from a users group and a nice collection of software... CP/M, Valdocs 2, Valdocs 3, dBase II, PeachText, Uniform and a bunch of other diskettes (easily 7 or 8 of the 10-disk holders). I'll post pictures and more info as I go through the boxes, but this is quite exciting! Mark From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Aug 9 21:58:06 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2010 22:58:06 -0400 Subject: New acquisition... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C60C03E.6070507@neurotica.com> On 8/9/10 10:51 PM, Mark Davidson wrote: > All the boxes finally arrived (and I still have to go through > everything), but I am the proud owner of an Epson QX-10... with > original manuals, newsletters from a users group and a nice collection > of software... CP/M, Valdocs 2, Valdocs 3, dBase II, PeachText, > Uniform and a bunch of other diskettes (easily 7 or 8 of the 10-disk > holders). > > I'll post pictures and more info as I go through the boxes, but this > is quite exciting! Neat! Good score! I always thought Valdocs was good stuff, and wondered why it never made it farther than it did. Make it quick with the pics! :) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From dkelvey at hotmail.com Mon Aug 9 23:36:48 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2010 21:36:48 -0700 Subject: SparcBook Tadpole In-Reply-To: <4C60BEAC.5080609@neurotica.com> References: <992230.97947.qm@web52604.mail.re2.yahoo.com>, , <4C60BEAC.5080609@neurotica.com> Message-ID: > From: mcguire at neurotica.com > > On 8/9/10 9:39 PM, dwight elvey wrote: > > I just got a old SparcBook Tadpole. > > That would be "Tadpole SparcBook". =) Nice score! I used a 3GS for > years, back when they were new. Good, solid, fast machines with nice > bright displays. > > > I checked on the web and all they have is info > > about newer models ( like G3 and G3S ). > > The 3G and 3GS are basically SPARCstation-5s in laptop form-factors, > if memory serves. Sun4m architecture. If yours predates those, it'll > be a SPARCstation-1/1+/2 processor, which is sun4c architecture. Both > are 32-bit. > > > This one is old. Weighs a ton. and has a small LCD > > screen. > > The batteries have failed and they look like they are > > most likely NiCads. The pack says 12V and it has 12 > > cells. I'd think that NiMetalHydride would have fewer > > cells. > > Both NiCd and NiMH chemistries have nominal cell voltages of 1.2V. > > > It needs a little internal cleaning but boots without > > the battery. > > The next problem is that I don't have the password. > > I'm wondering if there is a way to clear the password > > files from openboot so that I can log on as root? > > What OS is it booting? A lot of what we do will be determined by > that. It's likely SunOS 4.x, probably 4.1.x. Please find out for sure. There is a CD ROM with it with Solaris 1.0.1. I 'm not sure if that is what is in it though. I'll have to check. It doesn't have a CD ROM drive or floppy but does have one of those Sun connectors on the back that could go to a drive. > > Then...If you can get to an OpenBoot prompt, you can type "boot -s" to > boot into single-user mode. That should get you straight to a root > shell if it's running the earlier BSD-based SunOS 4.x. Let me know > when/if you can get that far, then I'll help you through getting rid of > the root password. I think I can get OpenBoot with just the pause-A as described on the web pages. It says it is a model s1. It doesn't look like any of the 3Gs I've seen on the web. It is older LCD technology. About 10 years old. Maybe from around the time of a Sparc5 or so. I'm not a Unix heavy so I've no idea what to do once I boot to root?? Can I use passwrd or some such to reset the password? I guess I'll have to learn a little. I don't want to power it up too much with battery crystals floating around in it. It has a flakey keyboard but I hope it just needs a little cleaning. It looks like carbon button type but I'll have to see when I open it up. Dwight From mdavidson1963 at gmail.com Tue Aug 10 00:10:40 2010 From: mdavidson1963 at gmail.com (Mark Davidson) Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2010 22:10:40 -0700 Subject: New acquisition... In-Reply-To: <4C60C03E.6070507@neurotica.com> References: <4C60C03E.6070507@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Aug 9, 2010 at 7:58 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 8/9/10 10:51 PM, Mark Davidson wrote: >> All the boxes finally arrived (and I still have to go through >> everything), but I am the proud owner of an Epson QX-10... with >> original manuals, newsletters from a users group and a nice collection >> of software... CP/M, Valdocs 2, Valdocs 3, dBase II, PeachText, >> Uniform and a bunch of other diskettes (easily 7 or 8 of the 10-disk >> holders). >> >> I'll post pictures and more info as I go through the boxes, but this >> is quite exciting! > > ?Neat! ?Good score! ?I always thought Valdocs was good stuff, and > wondered why it never made it farther than it did. ?Make it quick with > the pics! :) It will take me a few days, but I'll get it done... Mark From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Aug 10 00:25:44 2010 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2010 23:25:44 -0600 Subject: GET LAMP is here In-Reply-To: <20100809163517.M21499@shell.lmi.net> References: <20100809163517.M21499@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4C60E2D8.4040301@jetnet.ab.ca> Fred Cisin wrote: > I agree. I often need to read several messages further on in a thread to > figure out what is being talked about. > > "XYZZY" or "PLUGH" would be more recognizable. But, like many puzzles in > Colossal Cave, it's obvious AFTER you know it, but not before. Well I got "THE LAMP". Now to find the cave... and buy the proper 9 pin null modem cable if they still make them. I can't keep stealing from the PC here. I am just finding playing ADVENTURE on the PDP-8 (SBC6120) with a IDE drive just playable for a text game. Did most of the people play ADVENTURE on a classic machine or wait for PC version or clone of the game. I remember playing a similar game on the COCO II but I think it was from Cassette rather than mini-floppy. > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com > Ben. From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Tue Aug 10 00:27:28 2010 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2010 00:27:28 -0500 Subject: Iomega Bernoulli Box 20+20 (A220H) In-Reply-To: <4C5D7B36.29751.2067603@cclist.sydex.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20100701171352.0ba34848@localhost>, <4C390EC0.5090003@brutman.com>, <4C5DD05D.9090906@brutman.com> <4C5D7B36.29751.2067603@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4C60E340.7090604@brutman.com> I'm really starting to regret even thinking about tinkering with these things - they are maddening. A220H (8" 20MB drive) with 10MB cartridges: - If it is SCSI then a lot was not implemented. (No ID string or version numbers for example) - 256 byte sectors - yuk. - Don't even bother with the Linux 2.6 kernel. - Can be read with an older Linux 2.2 kernel, but not written. The OS tries to query the drive to see if it is write protected and gets an invalid response back, so it assumes read only. - On a genuine XT with the original Iomega PC2B-50 controller card and original Iomega software the drive can be seen. But the drive doesn't seem to like the cartridges - they spin up when first inserted, and then spin down to an inactive state quickly after. Trying to access or format the drives gives me errors. The docs are not clear, but they hint that 10MB cartridges are read only in a 20MB drive. Bernoulli Box 2 (5.25", 20MB drive): - Definitely SCSI - the ID string shows up nicely. - 256 byte sectors - still yuk. - The Linux 2.2 machine can do raw reads and writes using dd! Ok, so at least I can prove that the thing works. With some cajoling I can partition the disk, but I can't write a filesystem for some bizarre reason. So I'm stuck with sector reads and writes. - On a genuine XT with the PC2B-50 controller card and software the device driver doesn't see the drive at all. (I accidently got the machine/card to try to boot from the drive, and it read at least a sector. So it's not hopeless.) - Under DOS on a 386 with an ASPI manager I can see the drive but can't partition the media. Everything I've tried things the capacity is 0. So, if anybody out there had an early Bernoulli Box setup, please contact me off list - I have a lot of questions. I'd just like to get to some known good working configuration and branch out from there. Things I'm interested in particular: - What SCSI adapter were you using? What device drivers and OS? - On the older 8" drives - are 10" carts read only, or should they be writable too? - Does anybody know of a source for 20MB cartridges for the older 8" drive? Having used 10MB cartridges that I'm not sure I can write too is kind of useless. I'm going to need therapy after this. I have thought about throwing the damned things out the window. Mike From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Aug 10 00:46:23 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2010 22:46:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: GET LAMP is here In-Reply-To: <4C60E2D8.4040301@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <20100809163517.M21499@shell.lmi.net> <4C60E2D8.4040301@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <20100809223554.N21499@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 9 Aug 2010, Ben wrote: > Well I got "THE LAMP". Now to find the cave... and buy the proper > 9 pin null modem cable if they still make them. I can't keep stealing > from the PC here. > I am just finding playing ADVENTURE on the PDP-8 (SBC6120) > with a IDE drive just playable for a text game. Did most of the > people play ADVENTURE on a classic machine or wait for PC version > or clone of the game. I remember playing a similar game on the COCO II > but I think it was from Cassette rather than mini-floppy. Well, I am far from an expert. I played it a few times on terminals, with no real idea of what (or WHO) was at the other end of the connection. (Isn't that the "reverse Turing Test"? where you see whether a human can convince the party at the other end of the line that it is a machine?) Then MICROS~1 put out a licensed version of Crowther and Wood's Adventure, on TRS80 diskette. It was copy-protected, and some people literally wore through some tracks of the disk (such as at the 2" slit, or at the snake, or at one of the mazes) Later, Scott Adams created his own version of the same thing, and came out with dozens? of different games with the same program. He also tried to get Randy Cook to finish VTOS (TRS-DOS) 4.0 Getting Randy Cook to finish ANY project was extremely difficult. When you get REALLY stuck, speak up and we'll sell you hints. From cclist at sydex.com Tue Aug 10 00:48:13 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2010 22:48:13 -0700 Subject: GET LAMP is here In-Reply-To: <4C60E2D8.4040301@jetnet.ab.ca> References: , <20100809163517.M21499@shell.lmi.net>, <4C60E2D8.4040301@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4C6085AD.18681.316E52D@cclist.sydex.com> On 9 Aug 2010 at 23:25, Ben wrote: > Well I got "THE LAMP". Now to find the cave... and buy the proper 9 > pin null modem cable if they still make them. I can't keep stealing > from the PC here. I am just finding playing ADVENTURE on the PDP-8 > (SBC6120) with a IDE drive just playable for a text game. Did most of > the people play ADVENTURE on a classic machine or wait for PC version > or clone of the game. I remember playing a similar game on the COCO II > but I think it was from Cassette rather than mini-floppy. You mean other than playing it on big iron? Heck, pretty early on, there was a CP/M version of it--I've got it here on a floppy with MP/M on it (a good multi-terminal demo). Wonder if Chess 3.0 will run on a PDP-8? --Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Aug 10 01:01:07 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2010 02:01:07 -0400 Subject: Iomega Bernoulli Box 20+20 (A220H) In-Reply-To: <4C60E340.7090604@brutman.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20100701171352.0ba34848@localhost>, <4C390EC0.5090003@brutman.com>, <4C5DD05D.9090906@brutman.com> <4C5D7B36.29751.2067603@cclist.sydex.com> <4C60E340.7090604@brutman.com> Message-ID: <4C60EB23.6000204@neurotica.com> On 8/10/10 1:27 AM, Michael B. Brutman wrote: > Things I'm interested in particular: > > - What SCSI adapter were you using? What device drivers and OS? Adaptec 1542C. I don't recall which drivers, this was ~1991 or so. I'm almost thinking there weren't any drivers (the 1542C had an onboard BIOS ROM) but I seem to recall having a special formatting program. (this was with a 44MB drive) The OS in use was DOS, probably v3.3. > - On the older 8" drives - are 10" carts read only, or should they be > writable too? Digging in very dusty memory here; I used quite a few of these. I'm kinda sad that I don't have any left, but I've not touched them since about 1991. I used the 10MB and 20MB 8" drives at home, and 5.25" 44MB drives at work around that time, both under DOS. Distant memories suggest that the 10MB disks are read-only in 20MB drives but I'm not positive. At home I had an Iomega controller board for the 8" drives, PC2-something. > - Does anybody know of a source for 20MB cartridges for the older 8" > drive? Having used 10MB cartridges that I'm not sure I can write too is > kind of useless. ...eBay...not hard to find.. > I'm going to need therapy after this. I have thought about throwing the > damned things out the window. ;) I actually had really good luck with them. I had dozens of disks, but I think I only had one or two of the 8" disks fail, and I've never seen a 44MB disk fail. They're surprisingly reliable. Oh wait, I DO have one 8" subsystem left, it's a dual 20MB subsystem on a PDP-11 in a Kevex spectrometer for my SEM. I've not actually tried to fire it up, it's in storage so I can't look at it, but I know I still have it. Someday, when there's time.. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Aug 10 00:59:47 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2010 22:59:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Iomega Bernoulli Box 20+20 (A220H) In-Reply-To: <4C60E340.7090604@brutman.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20100701171352.0ba34848@localhost>, <4C390EC0.5090003@brutman.com>, <4C5DD05D.9090906@brutman.com> <4C5D7B36.29751.2067603@cclist.sydex.com> <4C60E340.7090604@brutman.com> Message-ID: <20100809224823.E21499@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 10 Aug 2010, Michael B. Brutman wrote: > I'm going to need therapy after this. I have thought about throwing the > damned things out the window. If you had complete access to Iomega "technical support", you would now be ready to defenestrate them, also. IIRC, there was a class action lawsuit! For many years, it was "impossible" to reach a human being with ANY question (including basic specs) until they had money from you. I had one of their "Ditto"? tape drives, and wanted to know whether it could use the new Verbatim extra length cartridges. It was not possible to get an answer! "Punch in your credit card number. If the problem is determined to be a defective product, then your charges will be reversed in a few months." Ended up confronting one of their engineers at Comdex, resulting in getting a copy of "the new version of the software", and the drive never worked again. But the dog trainers loved having a free source of clickers! I sold the drive for $1 ar Foothill, but had to throw in tapes with it. Think "almost" SCSI, NOT SCSI. At least some were read-only of the previous media - I don't remember whether that was 10 V 20 or some other transition. They came out with some exciting products, but reliability went steadily downhill. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Aug 10 01:05:07 2010 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2010 00:05:07 -0600 Subject: GET LAMP is here In-Reply-To: <20100809223554.N21499@shell.lmi.net> References: <20100809163517.M21499@shell.lmi.net> <4C60E2D8.4040301@jetnet.ab.ca> <20100809223554.N21499@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4C60EC13.8060707@jetnet.ab.ca> Fred Cisin wrote: > On Mon, 9 Aug 2010, Ben wrote: Later, Scott Adams created his own version of the same thing, and came out > with dozens? of different games with the same program. > He also tried to get Randy Cook to finish VTOS (TRS-DOS) 4.0 > Getting Randy Cook to finish ANY project was extremely difficult. > > > When you get REALLY stuck, speak up and we'll sell you hints. While everybody is getting $COIN$ you'll be getting the $DOLLARS$. Ben. PS. I wish they kept hours in the PDP-8 version. 12 am is not the time be playing ADVENTURE... Reading email is another story. :) From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Aug 10 01:09:12 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2010 23:09:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Iomega Bernoulli Box 20+20 (A220H) In-Reply-To: <4C60EB23.6000204@neurotica.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20100701171352.0ba34848@localhost>, <4C390EC0.5090003@brutman.com>, <4C5DD05D.9090906@brutman.com> <4C5D7B36.29751.2067603@cclist.sydex.com> <4C60E340.7090604@brutman.com> <4C60EB23.6000204@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20100809230420.I21499@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 10 Aug 2010, Dave McGuire wrote: > (this was with a 44MB drive) The OS in use was DOS, probably v3.3. PC-DOS 3.30 and MS-DOS 3.30 couldn't believe that a drive could be over 32M. But, they could be tricked into thinking the drive was a network device, instead of a drive with MSCDEX or equivalent (from DOS 3.10 on, with mostly undocumented "network defirector"). MS-DOS 3.31 and PC-DOS 4.00 could comptrehend drives larger than 32M. IIRC, Iomega had some squirelly software to use on older DOS. From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Aug 10 01:13:30 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2010 02:13:30 -0400 Subject: Iomega Bernoulli Box 20+20 (A220H) In-Reply-To: <20100809230420.I21499@shell.lmi.net> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20100701171352.0ba34848@localhost>, <4C390EC0.5090003@brutman.com>, <4C5DD05D.9090906@brutman.com> <4C5D7B36.29751.2067603@cclist.sydex.com> <4C60E340.7090604@brutman.com> <4C60EB23.6000204@neurotica.com> <20100809230420.I21499@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4C60EE0A.7070308@neurotica.com> On 8/10/10 2:09 AM, Fred Cisin wrote: >> (this was with a 44MB drive) The OS in use was DOS, probably v3.3. > > PC-DOS 3.30 and MS-DOS 3.30 couldn't believe that a drive could be over > 32M. But, they could be tricked into thinking the drive was a network > device, instead of a drive with MSCDEX or equivalent (from DOS 3.10 on, > with mostly undocumented "network defirector"). > MS-DOS 3.31 and PC-DOS 4.00 could comptrehend drives larger than 32M. Yes, the 44MB disks were all partitioned as ~32MB and ~10-11MB and showed up as two drives. > IIRC, Iomega had some squirelly software to use on older DOS. I seem to recall having heard about that, but I don't think we ever used it. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cclist at sydex.com Tue Aug 10 01:19:24 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2010 23:19:24 -0700 Subject: Iomega Bernoulli Box 20+20 (A220H) In-Reply-To: <20100809224823.E21499@shell.lmi.net> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20100701171352.0ba34848@localhost>, <4C60E340.7090604@brutman.com>, <20100809224823.E21499@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4C608CFC.31160.33372FD@cclist.sydex.com> On 9 Aug 2010 at 22:59, Fred Cisin wrote: > If you had complete access to Iomega "technical support", you would > now be ready to defenestrate them, also. IIRC, there was a class > action lawsuit! For many years, it was "impossible" to reach a human > being with ANY question (including basic specs) until they had money > from you. Hmmm, I never had any problems with Iomega tech support. They even gave me a set of drives with technical documentation free gratis and followed up with a couple of calls to see how I was getting on. It probably helped that I had the IRS for a customer at the time. Nothing like support from techs with high-level marketing types breathing down their necks. > Think "almost" SCSI, NOT SCSI. > At least some were read-only of the previous media - I don't remember > whether that was 10 V 20 or some other transition. I DID say "SCSI-ish". Later drives got better with conformity to SCSI-2 standards. To be fair, in the early days of SCSI, there was "Apple SCSI" and everyone else. --Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Aug 10 01:38:27 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2010 02:38:27 -0400 Subject: SparcBook Tadpole In-Reply-To: References: <992230.97947.qm@web52604.mail.re2.yahoo.com>, , <4C60BEAC.5080609@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4C60F3E3.5020508@neurotica.com> On 8/10/10 12:36 AM, dwight elvey wrote: >> What OS is it booting? A lot of what we do will be determined by >> that. It's likely SunOS 4.x, probably 4.1.x. Please find out for sure. > > There is a CD ROM with it with Solaris 1.0.1. I 'm not sure if that > is what is in it though. I'll have to check. It doesn't have a CD ROM drive > or floppy but does have one of those Sun connectors on the back > that could go to a drive. Is it a standard 50-pin SCSI-2 connector? Solaris 1.0.1 is SunOS 4.1.2. The last of that series is 4.1.4_U1. This is BSD-based SunOS. >> Then...If you can get to an OpenBoot prompt, you can type "boot -s" to >> boot into single-user mode. That should get you straight to a root >> shell if it's running the earlier BSD-based SunOS 4.x. Let me know >> when/if you can get that far, then I'll help you through getting rid of >> the root password. > > I think I can get OpenBoot with just the pause-A as described on the > web pages. Yes, that's pretty standard interrupt key sequence for Sun machines. On a Sun keyboard, it would be "Stop" or "L1" (upper left key) plus "A". The standard OpenBoot prompt is "ok ". > It says it is a model s1. It doesn't look like any of the 3Gs I've seen > on the web. It is older LCD technology. About 10 years old. Maybe > from around the time of a Sparc5 or so. I was using a 3GS (SPARCstation-5) in probably 1998 or so. The S1...Hmm, there's something weird about the S1/S2 machines but I don't recall what, and I don't recall where they fell in the line. I'll see if I can jog my memory a bit. > I'm not a Unix heavy so I've no idea what to do once I boot to > root?? Can I use passwrd or some such to reset the password? > I guess I'll have to learn a little. You can use the "passwd" command to reset the root password, or you can edit /etc/passwd directly and zero out the password for root. It's the second colon-delimited field and it should be thirteen characters wide. If you go that route, I can tell you what you'll need to do with the "vi" editor in case nothing easier is installed. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From dkelvey at hotmail.com Tue Aug 10 08:37:57 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2010 06:37:57 -0700 Subject: SparcBook Tadpole In-Reply-To: <4C60F3E3.5020508@neurotica.com> References: <992230.97947.qm@web52604.mail.re2.yahoo.com>, , , , <4C60BEAC.5080609@neurotica.com>, , <4C60F3E3.5020508@neurotica.com> Message-ID: > From: mcguire at neurotica.com ---snip--- > > > > There is a CD ROM with it with Solaris 1.0.1. I 'm not sure if that > > is what is in it though. I'll have to check. It doesn't have a CD ROM drive > > or floppy but does have one of those Sun connectors on the back > > that could go to a drive. > > Is it a standard 50-pin SCSI-2 connector? Yes, I think thats it. Small connector. I'll count the pins today. > > Solaris 1.0.1 is SunOS 4.1.2. The last of that series is 4.1.4_U1. > This is BSD-based SunOS. Sounds good. > ---snip--- > > > I'm not a Unix heavy so I've no idea what to do once I boot to > > root?? Can I use passwrd or some such to reset the password? > > I guess I'll have to learn a little. > > You can use the "passwd" command to reset the root password, or you > can edit /etc/passwd directly and zero out the password for root. It's > the second colon-delimited field and it should be thirteen characters > wide. If you go that route, I can tell you what you'll need to do with > the "vi" editor in case nothing easier is installed. > I mostly use emacs at work ( just used to the keyboard macros and such ) but I can make up a cheat sheet for vi. Many of the others are more familiar with vi than I am, not having grown up in the UNIX world. I'll just do a man on vi to get the important commands. like save and exit. I've used vi a couple times but just not that familiar with it. Dwight From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Tue Aug 10 08:48:32 2010 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2010 08:48:32 -0500 Subject: Iomega Bernoulli Box 20+20 (A220H) In-Reply-To: <4C60EB23.6000204@neurotica.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20100701171352.0ba34848@localhost>, <4C390EC0.5090003@brutman.com>, <4C5DD05D.9090906@brutman.com> <4C5D7B36.29751.2067603@cclist.sydex.com> <4C60E340.7090604@brutman.com> <4C60EB23.6000204@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4C6158B0.9070804@brutman.com> Dave McGuire wrote: > On 8/10/10 1:27 AM, Michael B. Brutman wrote: >> Things I'm interested in particular: >> >> - What SCSI adapter were you using? What device drivers and OS? > > Adaptec 1542C. I don't recall which drivers, this was ~1991 or so. > I'm almost thinking there weren't any drivers (the 1542C had an onboard > BIOS ROM) but I seem to recall having a special formatting program. > (this was with a 44MB drive) The OS in use was DOS, probably v3.3. I'm using the Adaptec ASPI utilities, but not on an Adaptec card. I'll fix that tonight. (I have a 1542CF that I can put in the machine, although I hate changing the config on my machines.) >> - On the older 8" drives - are 10" carts read only, or should they be >> writable too? > > Digging in very dusty memory here; I used quite a few of these. I'm > kinda sad that I don't have any left, but I've not touched them since > about 1991. I used the 10MB and 20MB 8" drives at home, and 5.25" 44MB > drives at work around that time, both under DOS. Distant memories > suggest that the 10MB disks are read-only in 20MB drives but I'm not > positive. At home I had an Iomega controller board for the 8" drives, > PC2-something. The Iomega controller is a PC2B-50. (There is a version without a boot ROM too.) I have two samples of these, so I'm ok there. >> - Does anybody know of a source for 20MB cartridges for the older 8" >> drive? Having used 10MB cartridges that I'm not sure I can write too is >> kind of useless. > > ...eBay...not hard to find.. Point me at some off list. I've been looking for over two months. I've found 10MB carts (bought the only 5 that were there), an original manual for the 10MB 8" units with software, and a controller card. But the 20MB 8" disks haven't been there, unless I'm doing something very wrong. >> I'm going to need therapy after this. I have thought about throwing the >> damned things out the window. > > ;) > > I actually had really good luck with them. I had dozens of disks, but > I think I only had one or two of the 8" disks fail, and I've never seen > a 44MB disk fail. They're surprisingly reliable. I think the build quality and the technology were great for the time, and that's why I want to get one working. This is the kind of thing that was 'high end' back when I was a PC user, and the Bernoulli boxes were legendary for being tough and weird. So I'm really motivated to get one of these working. But wow, there just isn't a lot of information out there - this stuff is dangerously close to falling into the bit bucket. > Oh wait, I DO have one 8" subsystem left, it's a dual 20MB subsystem > on a PDP-11 in a Kevex spectrometer for my SEM. I've not actually tried > to fire it up, it's in storage so I can't look at it, but I know I still > have it. Someday, when there's time.. > > -Dave > Mike From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Tue Aug 10 09:34:43 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2010 11:34:43 -0300 Subject: EPROM programming (27c160's) References: <992230.97947.qm@web52604.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <01e101cb3899$66d24880$9201a8c0@portajara> > I use an old Needham's PB-10 EPROM programmer. Best device programmer > ever, as far as I'm concerned. It's fast, reliable, and the software is so > nice and easy to use. Only problem - it's old, and doesn't support 16 bit > devices. I really need to be able to program 27c160 and 27c322 devices. I had one, and it was excellent...15 years ago :) > So, I built an adapter. I bought a 16bit adapter intended for those cheap > and nasty Willem programmers. I made some minor modifications to use it > with my Needhams, and added toggle switches for the upper address lines. > Now, I can program larger devices in chunks. This worked perfectly for the > couple of chips I had at the time - two 27c160's and two 27c800's. IF the program algorythm (wow, I forgot how to spell it!) is right for the bigger devices! :oO > On chips with a date code before about 2000, the die is larger, and none > of these want to program. On chips with a date code after 2000, the die is > smaller, and some of them program perfectly, others get most of the way > through before erroring out. Had the same problem here in Brazil. To the point I had to specificaly ask the supplier the '160 with "4 squares" (the smaller die is divided in 4, the bigger in 6). This is **very common** to happen if you don't have a GOOD programmer. The only programmer that worked was a Beeprog+ I had access. Now I use a Wellon VP-280 (china!) and it works with both kinds of memory, like the beeprog. > Now, I'm stumped. I *really* want to make this programmer program these > chips. It does everything else properly, including Redo the DOS program? :) > Basically, I am wondering if any of our resident gurus have seen behavior > like this with EPROMs, and if there may be anything I can do to shorten > pulses, buffer, or something to get this to program... or, if anyone just > *happens* to have the source code to the EMP software laying around > somewhere... I believe it will be cheaper to buy a new/good programmer. VP280 costs less than a hundred bucks and it outperforms anything you can think of in a PB-10. > Failing that, does anyone have a suggestion of an EPROM programmer that I > can buy that will program 27c160's. Preferably something that can be > operated from DOS over a parallel or serial port, or better yet, an ISA > card. :o\ Though question! :o) Greetings from Brazil, Alexandre Souza, PU1BZZ From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Tue Aug 10 09:38:44 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2010 11:38:44 -0300 Subject: GET LAMP is here References: <20100809163517.M21499@shell.lmi.net><4C60E2D8.4040301@jetnet.ab.ca> <20100809223554.N21499@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <022a01cb389c$6fa0e4a0$9201a8c0@portajara> > I played it a few times on terminals, with no real idea of what (or WHO) > was at the other end of the connection. > (Isn't that the "reverse Turing Test"? where you see whether a human can > convince the party at the other end of the line that it is a machine?) Unrelated piece of fun info: Sunday I went to a local motel with my girlfriend (I'm hosting two ladies on my home and primitive noises may not be too comfortable for them). When we were checking out, there was a monitor on the out with your bill and...wow, it was a terminal, connected to some kind of *nix system, everything was serial-based!!! I felt myself in 1980!!! :oD Very interesting view :D From dkelvey at hotmail.com Tue Aug 10 10:12:29 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2010 08:12:29 -0700 Subject: EPROM programming (27c160's) In-Reply-To: <992230.97947.qm@web52604.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <992230.97947.qm@web52604.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > From: ian_primus at yahoo.com > Subject: EPROM programming (27c160's) > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > Well, I am stumped here. I have been fighting with this for a while and I can't figure it out... > > I use an old Needham's PB-10 EPROM programmer. Best device programmer ever, as far as I'm concerned. It's fast, reliable, and the software is so nice and easy to use. Only problem - it's old, and doesn't support 16 bit devices. I really need to be able to program 27c160 and 27c322 devices. > Hi I started to hack my PB-10 but found the bad transistor before completing. Maybe I'll finish it some time. Dwight From cclist at sydex.com Tue Aug 10 10:15:14 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2010 08:15:14 -0700 Subject: GET LAMP is here In-Reply-To: <022a01cb389c$6fa0e4a0$9201a8c0@portajara> References: , <022a01cb389c$6fa0e4a0$9201a8c0@portajara> Message-ID: <4C610A92.14148.1BDA30@cclist.sydex.com> On 10 Aug 2010 at 11:38, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > Sunday I went to a local motel with my girlfriend (I'm hosting two > ladies on my home and primitive noises may not be too comfortable for > them). When we were checking out, there was a monitor on the out with > your bill and...wow, it was a terminal, connected to some kind of *nix > system, everything was serial-based!!! I felt myself in 1980!!! I wish the public in general would follow the maxim "If it ain't broke, don't fix it!". Our landfills might not be overflowing. --Chuck From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Aug 10 10:36:17 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2010 08:36:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: GET LAMP is here In-Reply-To: <022a01cb389c$6fa0e4a0$9201a8c0@portajara> from Alexandre Souza - Listas at "Aug 10, 10 11:38:44 am" Message-ID: <201008101536.o7AFaHjd020910@floodgap.com> > Sunday I went to a local motel with my girlfriend (I'm hosting two > ladies on my home and primitive noises may not be too comfortable for them). ... > When we were checking out, there was a monitor on the out with your bill > and...wow, it was a terminal, connected to some kind of *nix system, > everything was serial-based!!! I felt myself in 1980!!! :oD > Very interesting view :D Up until a few years ago Kaiser Permanente was still using 3270 terminals. A couple weeks ago, I went to a Pizza Hut in Lake Havasu City and on my way out noticed that the terminal at the cashier was showing a Linux login prompt. It took a lot of willpower not to surreptitously try to login as root. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- TRUE HEADLINE: Morning-After Pill Decision Delayed ------------------------- From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Aug 10 10:37:38 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2010 11:37:38 -0400 Subject: GET LAMP is here In-Reply-To: <022a01cb389c$6fa0e4a0$9201a8c0@portajara> References: <20100809163517.M21499@shell.lmi.net> <4C60E2D8.4040301@jetnet.ab.ca> <20100809223554.N21499@shell.lmi.net> <022a01cb389c$6fa0e4a0$9201a8c0@portajara> Message-ID: > ? Sunday I went to a local motel with my girlfriend (I'm hosting two ladies > on my home and primitive noises may not be too comfortable for them). When > we were checking out, there was a monitor on the out with your bill > and...wow, it was a terminal, connected to some kind of *nix system, > everything was serial-based!!! I felt myself in 1980!!! :oD Wow, you were using Unix, and still managed to get laid? Oh wait, you were checking out. -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Aug 10 10:39:34 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2010 11:39:34 -0400 Subject: GET LAMP is here In-Reply-To: <201008101536.o7AFaHjd020910@floodgap.com> References: <022a01cb389c$6fa0e4a0$9201a8c0@portajara> <201008101536.o7AFaHjd020910@floodgap.com> Message-ID: > Up until a few years ago Kaiser Permanente was still using 3270 terminals. Real 3278s? They are getting very thin on the ground. -- Will From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Aug 10 10:51:56 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2010 08:51:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: GET LAMP is here In-Reply-To: from William Donzelli at "Aug 10, 10 11:39:34 am" Message-ID: <201008101551.o7AFpujL019070@floodgap.com> > > Up until a few years ago Kaiser Permanente was still using 3270 terminals. > > Real 3278s? They are getting very thin on the ground. Some, yes. Others were clones. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- MOVIE IDEA: Blazing E-mail Signatures -------------------------------------- From scanning.cc at gmail.com Tue Aug 10 11:29:06 2010 From: scanning.cc at gmail.com (alan canning) Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2010 08:29:06 -0800 Subject: M51976FP pinout? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Tony, This part is a bitch to find. I had the same results as you with the exception of the following; Abstract: .. The M51996A is equivalent to the M51976 with externally resettable OVP overvoltage protection circuit. Not much help but it is a start. Best regards, Steven On 5/29/10, Tony Duell wrote: > > I am looking for a pinout or datasheet for a chip labelled M51976FP. It > appears to be made by Mitsubishi, it's a SMPSU controller in a 20 pin > SOIC package. > > I have the data on the M51977, which is similar (I think), but some pins > are clearly different. > > Looking on datasheetarchiver and digchip didn't find anything. And a > google search (as ever) found plenty of people who sould sell me 100000 > of them, but nothing else). > > [It's uised in a PSU modile in an HP tape drive that I am working on, so > it does have som relevance to classic computers0. > > Thanks in advance for any help > > -tony > > From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Aug 10 11:31:25 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2010 12:31:25 -0400 Subject: Iomega Bernoulli Box 20+20 (A220H) In-Reply-To: <4C6158B0.9070804@brutman.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20100701171352.0ba34848@localhost>, <4C390EC0.5090003@brutman.com>, <4C5DD05D.9090906@brutman.com> <4C5D7B36.29751.2067603@cclist.sydex.com> <4C60E340.7090604@brutman.com> <4C60EB23.6000204@neurotica.com> <4C6158B0.9070804@brutman.com> Message-ID: <4C617EDD.8080106@neurotica.com> On 8/10/10 9:48 AM, Michael B. Brutman wrote: >>> - Does anybody know of a source for 20MB cartridges for the older 8" >>> drive? Having used 10MB cartridges that I'm not sure I can write too is >>> kind of useless. >> >> ...eBay...not hard to find.. > > Point me at some off list. I've been looking for over two months. I've > found 10MB carts (bought the only 5 that were there), an original manual > for the 10MB 8" units with software, and a controller card. But the > 20MB 8" disks haven't been there, unless I'm doing something very wrong. Just sent you four auction numbers off-list. >>> I'm going to need therapy after this. I have thought about throwing the >>> damned things out the window. >> >> ;) >> >> I actually had really good luck with them. I had dozens of disks, but >> I think I only had one or two of the 8" disks fail, and I've never seen >> a 44MB disk fail. They're surprisingly reliable. > > I think the build quality and the technology were great for the time, > and that's why I want to get one working. This is the kind of thing > that was 'high end' back when I was a PC user, and the Bernoulli boxes > were legendary for being tough and weird. So I'm really motivated to > get one of these working. But wow, there just isn't a lot of > information out there - this stuff is dangerously close to falling into > the bit bucket. Well send them to me if you give up! ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Tue Aug 10 12:16:19 2010 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com) Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2010 10:16:19 -0700 Subject: Iomega Bernoulli Box 20+20 (A220H) In-Reply-To: <4C617EDD.8080106@neurotica.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20100701171352.0ba34848@localhost>, <4C390EC0.5090003@brutman.com>, <4C5DD05D.9090906@brutman.com> <4C5D7B36.29751.2067603@cclist.sydex.com> <4C60E340.7090604@brutman.com> <4C60EB23.6000204@neurotica.com> <4C6158B0.9070804@brutman.com> <4C617EDD.8080106@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20100810101619.45753o01sx0vgask@webmail.brutman.com> Quoting Dave McGuire : >> Point me at some off list. I've been looking for over two months. I've >> found 10MB carts (bought the only 5 that were there), an original manual >> for the 10MB 8" units with software, and a controller card. But the >> 20MB 8" disks haven't been there, unless I'm doing something very wrong. > > Just sent you four auction numbers off-list. Grateful for the help, but all of those are the smaller 5.25" cartridges. I have those already for the newer BBox - it's the 8" BBox that I need them for. The 10MB carts prove basic operation (reading at least), but I can't do anything useful unless I can write. The 8" carts are more rectangular in shape - when they went to the 5.25" carts they started looking more like oversized 3.5" floppies, complete with a shutter mechanism. An 8" cart has no shutter mechanism - the heads get inserted through the short edge. In a sleeve you cant' see anything, so the shape is the giveaway. Mike From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Tue Aug 10 12:16:19 2010 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com) Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2010 10:16:19 -0700 Subject: Iomega Bernoulli Box 20+20 (A220H) In-Reply-To: <4C617EDD.8080106@neurotica.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20100701171352.0ba34848@localhost>, <4C390EC0.5090003@brutman.com>, <4C5DD05D.9090906@brutman.com> <4C5D7B36.29751.2067603@cclist.sydex.com> <4C60E340.7090604@brutman.com> <4C60EB23.6000204@neurotica.com> <4C6158B0.9070804@brutman.com> <4C617EDD.8080106@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20100810101619.45753o01sx0vgask@webmail.brutman.com> Quoting Dave McGuire : >> Point me at some off list. I've been looking for over two months. I've >> found 10MB carts (bought the only 5 that were there), an original manual >> for the 10MB 8" units with software, and a controller card. But the >> 20MB 8" disks haven't been there, unless I'm doing something very wrong. > > Just sent you four auction numbers off-list. Grateful for the help, but all of those are the smaller 5.25" cartridges. I have those already for the newer BBox - it's the 8" BBox that I need them for. The 10MB carts prove basic operation (reading at least), but I can't do anything useful unless I can write. The 8" carts are more rectangular in shape - when they went to the 5.25" carts they started looking more like oversized 3.5" floppies, complete with a shutter mechanism. An 8" cart has no shutter mechanism - the heads get inserted through the short edge. In a sleeve you cant' see anything, so the shape is the giveaway. Mike From legalize at xmission.com Tue Aug 10 12:18:43 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2010 11:18:43 -0600 Subject: Lot of PDP-11/84 on ebay in Boston In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 04 Aug 2010 04:17:57 +0200. Message-ID: I notice that when I view the page, ebay says it ended with "buy it now" but when I view the "completed listings" results for the seller, they're all shown with the prices in red, which indicates that noone bought the item. Now the seller has a bunch of individual PDP-11 cards listed for $75 each, so it looks like he took the cards out of the system and is now parting them out. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From dm561 at torfree.net Tue Aug 10 15:19:45 2010 From: dm561 at torfree.net (MikeS) Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2010 15:19:45 -0500 Subject: GET LAMP is here References: Message-ID: <6F9542E7505C40AEAA28C473798E07B0@vl420mt> -------------------Original Message: Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2010 16:48:10 -0700 (PDT) From: Fred Cisin Subject: Re: GET LAMP is here On Mon, 9 Aug 2010, Tony Duell wrote: > I don't see why a comment of the form 'It's a documentary abotu the > heistory of text adventures, for more information see ' is > impossible. I agree. I often need to read several messages further on in a thread to figure out what is being talked about. "XYZZY" or "PLUGH" would be more recognizable. But, like many puzzles in Colossal Cave, it's obvious AFTER you know it, but not before. > follow such a URL involves almost as much work as you getting to see one > of my workshop notebooks. And I want to know if that effort is worthwhile. If we could scan the entire existing collection, then the effort probably would be worthwhile. I'm on dial-up right now. A URL with no explanation just seems rather inconsiderate. Oh, well. But, it's not just here. The college adminiatrators tend to send a 4 line paragraph as a MICROS~1 WEIRD attachment with no explanation other than "FYI" or "read the attachment". Meanwhile, the "Help Desk" sends out several announcements per week saying, "Please stop opening attachments that come with email, and please stop replying to messages that ask what your password is!" -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com -----------------------Reply: I'm with Tony and Fred on this one: a hint of what a URL is about would be nice and show a little consideration. I'm on dial-up as well, often incurring per-minute long distance charges, and read my email off-line; if there's no clue what a link is about then I just treat it as spam no matter where it's from instead of investing time and money looking at something that probably won't interest me (especially when some sites take 3 or 4 minutes at 56K just to open the page). mike From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 10 13:19:55 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2010 19:19:55 +0100 (BST) Subject: GET LAMP is here In-Reply-To: from "Gene Buckle" at Aug 9, 10 02:14:51 pm Message-ID: > > I don't see why a comment of the form 'It's a documentary abotu the > > heistory of text adventures, for more information see ' is impossible. > > > Well frankly, if I had any idea that you'd go Old Man McClusky on me while > waving your cane in my face and raving about these damn kids, I just may You do realise that if my origianl question had been given a direct (rather than indirect) answer, this thread would not existy... > have. Unfortunately I constantly forget that you like to party like it's > 1979. Oh comne on. I am not new here, I have not changed recently... > > The point is that not all of us read e-mail on line, not all of us have a > > web browser (or more specifically a graphical web browser) on the machine > > we use to read mail (or in my case on any of my machines). Which means to > > follow such a URL involves almost as much work as you getting to see one > > of my workshop notebooks. And I want to know if that effort is worthwhile. > > > I use Alpine to read email (text only) and have been known to use Lynx > (text only browser) on occasion. Both of which are likely available if > you're using pretty much any flavor of Unix, VMS, Linux or DOS. This does not alter the 'on line' part of the problem. I do not read and reply to e-mail while connected to the net. I have a dial-up connection, and some of the messaged I reply to involve me looking things up in manuals -- in other words spending considerable time figuring out a suitable reply. So if you just give a URL, I have to dial in again ($$$) and hope that lynx will make something sensible from the site. > > Because we've pretty much already defined that I'm an asshole, it should > be added that I'm not terribly understanding of peoples' self-configured > difficulty. You could easily build a machine that does all these I assume you also can't understand why people spend many hours making a mechanical closk from scratch when a $10 quartz clock is much more accurate. Or why people learn to play a musical instrument rather than just listening to a record/tape/CD. Or why people paint pictures when there are plenty of cameras around. To be honest, it doesn't matter if you understand why people do these things. They do, and that's all there is to it. You cna't understnad why I run a classic computer (enven though this is classiccmp). I am sure there are things that you do that I wouldn't want to do myself. So what? > new-fangled and modern webby things and yet you grump at ME because you > have no way to copy & paste a url into any kind of browser. I wasn;t expecting a transcript of the documentary, or anything like that. Just a 1-line description of what 'GET LAMP' actually was. Tomake this mildly on-topic, suppose you find a PCB with an HP logo and the number 09810-66513 on it You ahve no idea what it is and ask on the list. Which is more helpful : 1) $URL 2) It's the CPU control logic/microcode PCB from an HP 98x0 calcualtor. You cna find schematics at $URL# > Yes, I like the trailing edge of computing, but you fell off of it and the > guy pushing the stone wheelbarrow behind us is going to grind you to paste > if you don't catch up. :) For $deity;s sake, this _is_ classiccmp, isn't it? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 10 13:54:58 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2010 19:54:58 +0100 (BST) Subject: New acquisition... In-Reply-To: from "Mark Davidson" at Aug 9, 10 07:51:37 pm Message-ID: > > All the boxes finally arrived (and I still have to go through > everything), but I am the proud owner of an Epson QX-10... with Nice machine. The QX10 is one of my favourite desktop CP/M machines. The video system is based round a 7220, the serial port (IIRC) uses a 7201. amd it's got those lovely 1/3 height floppy drives with linear positioners (like tiny RK05s...) One thing to be aware of. The video board cna use wither 4116s or 4164s -- 16 of either, all must be the same type. There are some obvious links to move if you upgrade the RAM (if you don't shift them, you'll ruin the 4164s by applying 12V to them!), but there are also some decoupling capacitors that _must_ be removed if you use 4164s. If not, you get ome odd corruption after the screen has scrolled a few times. Don't ask how I found this out... I think the heardware manual is on the web somewhere, so I won't have to say 'fourth bookshelf, between the CoCo3 service manaul and the HP5245 counter manaul' :-) > original manuals, newsletters from a users group and a nice collection > of software... CP/M, Valdocs 2, Valdocs 3, dBase II, PeachText, I beleive there are offiically different keyboards for CP/M and Valdocs. My QX10 came with CP/M, I have never seen Valdocs. I seem to recall it was reported as being somewhat slow, wann't it written in a TIL, not machine code? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 10 14:01:59 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2010 20:01:59 +0100 (BST) Subject: GET LAMP is here In-Reply-To: <4C60E2D8.4040301@jetnet.ab.ca> from "Ben" at Aug 9, 10 11:25:44 pm Message-ID: > > Well I got "THE LAMP". Now to find the cave... and buy the proper > 9 pin null modem cable if they still make them. I can't keep stealing DE9 connectors are sill made. Multicre cable is still made. Soldering irons are still made.... [If people are going to flame me for my choice of computers, I feel justified in postiing messages like that. Making such a cable would be triival for me, I realsie it's not trivial for everybody, but I will bet that anyone who really needs one could learn to solder well enough to make one.] > from the PC here. > I am just finding playing ADVENTURE on the PDP-8 (SBC6120) > with a IDE drive just playable for a text game. Did most of the > people play ADVENTURE on a classic machine or wait for PC version Depenmds on what you mean by 'classic machine'. I certainly played text adventures on my TRS-80s M1 and M3 and on VAXen (not my VAXen, though). There's even one for (IIRC) the HP75 handheld, and that is rather too slow to be playable. Heck, there seemes to be a text adventure for the HP41 calcualtor -- maybe that's the one that'd far too slow to be playable.... > or clone of the game. I remember playing a similar game on the COCO II > but I think it was from Cassette rather than mini-floppy. I think there were text adventues for virtually all the classic micros... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 10 14:26:16 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2010 20:26:16 +0100 (BST) Subject: M51976FP pinout? In-Reply-To: from "alan canning" at Aug 10, 10 08:29:06 am Message-ID: > > Tony, > > This part is a bitch to find. I had the same results as you with the > exception of the following; I never found anything more on it either... > > > Abstract: .. The M51996A is equivalent to the M51976 with externally > resettable OVP overvoltage protection circuit. Equivalent does not, alas, mean the smae pinout (as I disconvered when looking at some ancient dual tracking regulator ICs recently. > > > Not much help but it is a start. > > Best regards, Steven > > On 5/29/10, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > I am looking for a pinout or datasheet for a chip labelled M51976FP. It > > appears to be made by Mitsubishi, it's a SMPSU controller in a 20 pin > > SOIC package. > > > > I have the data on the M51977, which is similar (I think), but some pins > > are clearly different. I think in the end I found that hte 51977 was a lot closer than I first thought. I'd mis-traced a coupld of pins (using multimeter probles on SOIC pacakges is not easy...) I figured out enough to know that IC was not the problem anyhow... -tony From mdavidson1963 at gmail.com Tue Aug 10 14:37:11 2010 From: mdavidson1963 at gmail.com (Mark Davidson) Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2010 12:37:11 -0700 Subject: New acquisition... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Aug 10, 2010 at 11:54 AM, Tony Duell wrote: >> >> All the boxes finally arrived (and I still have to go through >> everything), but I am the proud owner of an Epson QX-10... with > > Nice machine. The QX10 is one of my favourite desktop CP/M machines. The > video system is based round a 7220, the serial port (IIRC) uses a 7201. > amd it's got those lovely 1/3 height floppy drives with linear positioners > (like tiny RK05s...) Always good to have more info... :) > One thing to be aware of. The video board cna use wither 4116s or 4164s > -- 16 of either, all must be the same type. There are some obvious links > to move if you upgrade the RAM (if you don't shift them, you'll ruin the > 4164s by applying 12V to them!), but there are also some decoupling > capacitors that _must_ be removed if you use 4164s. If not, you get ome > odd corruption after the screen has scrolled a few times. Don't ask how I > found this out... VERY good to know... thank you. > I think the heardware manual is on the web somewhere, so I won't have to > say 'fourth bookshelf, between the CoCo3 service manaul and the HP5245 > counter manaul' :-) LOL... I haven't dug through all the boxes of manuals, newsletters, etc, yet. When I post the pictures, I'll also post everything else that came with the machine in case anyone on the list needs copies. >> original manuals, newsletters from a users group and a nice collection >> of software... CP/M, Valdocs 2, Valdocs 3, dBase II, PeachText, > > I beleive there are offiically different keyboards for CP/M and Valdocs. That's my understanding as well. I haven't looked at the keyboard yet. > My QX10 came with CP/M, I have never seen Valdocs. I seem to recall it > was reported as being somewhat slow, wann't it written in a TIL, not > machine code? > > -tony My understanding is that Valdocs 2 was written in Forth, and Valdocs 3 was written in C. It's also my understanding that Valdocs 3 was slower than 2. I'm pulling all this out of memory based on reading articles about the product online, so take it with a grain of salt. The woman who had this machine used it quite a bit and was just looking for a home for it. I would have posted something about this earlier, but (not to make her sound bad) it took MONTHS to get the machine shipped. She apparently had a bunch of data on diskettes and wanted to recover what she could. I told her (and had to keep telling her) "just ship it when you can... I'm not going anywhere and I'm patient". My girlfriend laughed at that because I'm actually NOT that patient. :) But, in the end, she found a home for the machine and I have a new baby to work with. I love collecting old computers! Mark From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Aug 10 14:40:39 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2010 15:40:39 -0400 Subject: New acquisition... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C61AB37.6010609@neurotica.com> On 8/10/10 2:54 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > My QX10 came with CP/M, I have never seen Valdocs. I seem to recall it > was reported as being somewhat slow, wann't it written in a TIL, not > machine code? Early Valdocs implementations were written in Forth, I believe later implementations were done in C. Not positive about the latter. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From als at thangorodrim.de Tue Aug 10 14:59:09 2010 From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber) Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2010 21:59:09 +0200 Subject: GET LAMP is here In-Reply-To: References: <20100809163517.M21499@shell.lmi.net> <4C60E2D8.4040301@jetnet.ab.ca> <20100809223554.N21499@shell.lmi.net> <022a01cb389c$6fa0e4a0$9201a8c0@portajara> Message-ID: <20100810195908.GA365@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> On Tue, Aug 10, 2010 at 11:37:38AM -0400, William Donzelli wrote: > > ? Sunday I went to a local motel with my girlfriend (I'm hosting two ladies > > on my home and primitive noises may not be too comfortable for them). When > > we were checking out, there was a monitor on the out with your bill > > and...wow, it was a terminal, connected to some kind of *nix system, > > everything was serial-based!!! I felt myself in 1980!!! :oD > > Wow, you were using Unix, and still managed to get laid? hehe About 3 years ago I saw plenty of vt520s in the local IKEA as terminals for the staff (here == near Zurich, Switzerland). Kind regards, Alex. -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Aug 10 15:09:38 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2010 16:09:38 -0400 Subject: GET LAMP is here In-Reply-To: <20100810195908.GA365@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> References: <20100809163517.M21499@shell.lmi.net> <4C60E2D8.4040301@jetnet.ab.ca> <20100809223554.N21499@shell.lmi.net> <022a01cb389c$6fa0e4a0$9201a8c0@portajara> <20100810195908.GA365@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> Message-ID: <4C61B202.1050403@neurotica.com> On 8/10/10 3:59 PM, Alexander Schreiber wrote: >>> Sunday I went to a local motel with my girlfriend (I'm hosting two ladies >>> on my home and primitive noises may not be too comfortable for them). When >>> we were checking out, there was a monitor on the out with your bill >>> and...wow, it was a terminal, connected to some kind of *nix system, >>> everything was serial-based!!! I felt myself in 1980!!! :oD >> >> Wow, you were using Unix, and still managed to get laid? > > hehe > > About 3 years ago I saw plenty of vt520s in the local IKEA as terminals > for the staff (here == near Zurich, Switzerland). IKEA here uses very small Linux machines. And in my experience, *only* UNIX people tend to get laid, because they're the only ones with any sense of style. Windows people seem to go after really skanky women. No standards across the board, ya know. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cclist at sydex.com Tue Aug 10 15:30:31 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2010 13:30:31 -0700 Subject: New acquisition... In-Reply-To: <4C61AB37.6010609@neurotica.com> References: , <4C61AB37.6010609@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4C615477.31275.13C93B3@cclist.sydex.com> On 10 Aug 2010 at 15:40, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 8/10/10 2:54 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > > My QX10 came with CP/M, I have never seen Valdocs. I seem to recall > > it was reported as being somewhat slow, wann't it written in a TIL, > > not machine code? > > Early Valdocs implementations were written in Forth, I believe later > implementations were done in C. Not positive about the latter. I believe the Forth thing extended to their clone CP/M, called TP/M. There are some subtle differences between the two. Done by a San Franscisco outfit, with a name like "Friends-Amis"? There is (or was) a ton of information out there on the QX-10, including programmer's guides and technical/repair manuals. Apologies to Andrew Lynch, but I found the 70-page NEC 7220 manual in my QX-10 folder. If you're still interested, I can email you a copy. I'd forgotten that I put it there. --Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Aug 10 15:32:05 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2010 13:32:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: GET LAMP is here In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20100810125109.M61892@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 9 Aug 2010, Gene Buckle wrote: > Well frankly, if I had any idea that you'd go Old Man McClusky on me while > waving your cane in my face and raving about these damn kids, I just may > have. Unfortunately I constantly forget that you like to party like it's > 1979. HELL, YES!! You damn kids today have no clue how to party. Herpes was the worst incurable STD in those days. I will gladly find and give John Titor a 5100 (with APL AND BASIC) if he will just drop me off in 1979. I'll throw in a 360 for a one-way to the 1960s. That's for one-way. For round-trip, all he gets is Valtrep. Who is Old Man McClusky? Maybe he'd like to come along. > I use Alpine to read email (text only) and have been known to use Lynx > (text only browser) on occasion. Both of which are likely available if > you're using pretty much any flavor of Unix, VMS, Linux or DOS. I'm on PINE, but I have three modern browsers on this POS. At dial-up speeds, it is still annoying to have to go somewhere just to find out what it is. Click and WAIT. > Because we've pretty much already defined that I'm an asshole, S'alright, so am I > it should be added that I'm not terribly understanding of peoples' > self-configured difficulty. You could easily build a machine that does > all these new-fangled and modern webby things and yet you grump at ME > because you have no way to copy & paste a url into any kind of browser. That is s'posedly comparably easy to reading "it's a documentary about Adventure"? Besides, kids today won't play Adventure "cause it don't got pictures" > Yes, I like the trailing edge of computing, but you fell off of it and > the guy pushing the stone wheelbarrow behind us is going to grind you to > paste if you don't catch up. :) I haven't been on the bleeding edge in about 30 years. Pioneers are the ones with arrows in the back. Y'know, 1970 was kinda fun, too. FORTRAN and APL, Selectric terminals, lining up the crosshairs on the Gerber "Etch-a-sketch" and stomping on the pedal to get the modified 026 to punch two three digit numbers of the coordinates, . . . Don't worry about the guy behind us; I can still swing my cane. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Aug 10 15:36:10 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2010 16:36:10 -0400 Subject: New acquisition... In-Reply-To: <4C615477.31275.13C93B3@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4C61AB37.6010609@neurotica.com> <4C615477.31275.13C93B3@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4C61B83A.6080006@neurotica.com> On 8/10/10 4:30 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Apologies to Andrew Lynch, but I found the 70-page NEC 7220 manual in > my QX-10 folder. If you're still interested, I can email you a copy. > I'd forgotten that I put it there. I'd love a copy; I have a few 7220s here that I'd like to do something fun with eventually. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From christian_liendo at yahoo.com Tue Aug 10 15:41:27 2010 From: christian_liendo at yahoo.com (Christian Liendo) Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2010 13:41:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: A New York Town where Pinball is illegal In-Reply-To: <6F9542E7505C40AEAA28C473798E07B0@vl420mt> Message-ID: <33740.28017.qm@web113507.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> I had to post this because it talks about a venue that would be dear to many people here.. Guy puts together a vintage pinball and games museum in NY NY has old law stating pinball is illegal He will probably go out of business. http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/crime/2010/08/07/pkg.chernoff.pinball.ban.cnn? From pete at dunnington.plus.com Tue Aug 10 16:23:12 2010 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2010 22:23:12 +0100 Subject: GET LAMP is here In-Reply-To: <20100810125109.M61892@shell.lmi.net> References: <20100810125109.M61892@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4C61C340.3040902@dunnington.plus.com> On 10/08/2010 21:32, Fred Cisin wrote: > I'm on PINE, but I have three modern browsers on this POS. At dial-up > speeds, it is still annoying to have to go somewhere just to find out what > it is. Click and WAIT. I'm with Tony and Fred, and probably a lot of others, on this. I have a reasonably fast broadband line at home, and a decent browser, but really, how much effort and consideration does it take to add a single line of explanation when somebody asks? -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Aug 10 16:33:55 2010 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2010 15:33:55 -0600 Subject: GET LAMP is here In-Reply-To: <20100810125109.M61892@shell.lmi.net> References: <20100810125109.M61892@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4C61C5C3.6030904@jetnet.ab.ca> Fred Cisin wrote: > Y'know, 1970 was kinda fun, too. FORTRAN and APL, Selectric terminals, > lining up the crosshairs on the Gerber "Etch-a-sketch" and stomping on the > pedal to get the modified 026 to punch two three digit numbers of the > coordinates, . . . > > > Don't worry about the guy behind us; I can still swing my cane. > I am more worried if you hit! :) > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com > From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Aug 10 17:01:01 2010 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2010 18:01:01 -0400 Subject: A New York Town where Pinball is illegal In-Reply-To: <33740.28017.qm@web113507.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <33740.28017.qm@web113507.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4C61CC1D.8040007@gmail.com> Christian Liendo wrote: > I had to post this because it talks about a venue that would be dear to many people here.. > > Guy puts together a vintage pinball and games museum in NY > > NY has old law stating pinball is illegal > > He will probably go out of business. > > http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/crime/2010/08/07/pkg.chernoff.pinball.ban.cnn? Just down the street for me. I've been to that place. Peace... Sridhar From kevenm at reeltapetransfer.com Tue Aug 10 17:42:31 2010 From: kevenm at reeltapetransfer.com (Keven Miller) Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2010 16:42:31 -0600 Subject: HP2340AR DTC 16 References: <201007201555.o6KFtahx044463@billY.EZWIND.NET><8670261230290364122@unknownmsgid> Message-ID: <4EE81FBBD3F2489896225A4491DF3018@RANGER1> I have a couple HP2340AR DTC 16 boxes. Anyone interested in them? Keven Miller (Orem Utah 84097) Distributed Terminal Controller. Used with HP3000 computer. Allows direct connect serial terminals, and modems. From als at thangorodrim.de Tue Aug 10 17:54:33 2010 From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 00:54:33 +0200 Subject: GET LAMP is here In-Reply-To: <4C61B202.1050403@neurotica.com> References: <20100809163517.M21499@shell.lmi.net> <4C60E2D8.4040301@jetnet.ab.ca> <20100809223554.N21499@shell.lmi.net> <022a01cb389c$6fa0e4a0$9201a8c0@portajara> <20100810195908.GA365@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> <4C61B202.1050403@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20100810225432.GC365@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> On Tue, Aug 10, 2010 at 04:09:38PM -0400, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 8/10/10 3:59 PM, Alexander Schreiber wrote: > >>> Sunday I went to a local motel with my girlfriend (I'm hosting two ladies > >>> on my home and primitive noises may not be too comfortable for them). When > >>> we were checking out, there was a monitor on the out with your bill > >>> and...wow, it was a terminal, connected to some kind of *nix system, > >>> everything was serial-based!!! I felt myself in 1980!!! :oD > >> > >> Wow, you were using Unix, and still managed to get laid? > > > > hehe > > > > About 3 years ago I saw plenty of vt520s in the local IKEA as terminals > > for the staff (here == near Zurich, Switzerland). > > IKEA here uses very small Linux machines. They probably found the price of (replacement) vt520s going up a bit too much for the size of their company. And a small Linux capable box for terminal like jobs can be had _very_ cheap - the alix3d3 sells for around USD 125 including systemboard, case and powerbrick. Thats a AMD Geode 500 Mhz with 256 MB of memory, network, USB, VGA (can do 1280x1024), audio on board. Very low power draw as well, boots from CF. The case is about 15x15x3 cm, you could just stick that behind the monitor. > And in my experience, *only* UNIX people tend to get laid, because > they're the only ones with any sense of style. *ogles the wife* Well, yes, I definitely have to agree ;-) > Windows people seem to go after really skanky women. No standards > across the board, ya know. Does that surprise you? SCNR, Alex. -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison From RichA at vulcan.com Tue Aug 10 18:05:09 2010 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2010 16:05:09 -0700 Subject: GET LAMP is here In-Reply-To: References: from "Gene Buckle" at Aug 9, 10 02:14:51 pm Message-ID: From: Tony Duell Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 2010 11:20 AM >> You could easily build a machine that does all these > I assume you also can't understand why people spend many hours making a > mechanical closk from scratch when a $10 quartz clock is much more > accurate. Or why people learn to play a musical instrument rather than > just listening to a record/tape/CD. Or why people paint pictures when > there are plenty of cameras around. Tony, I won't defend the lack of description on the URL. (I didn't bother to go look until someone else said what it was about, and I'm on fast boradband.) However, I took the comment you quoted to have an intrinsic "in addition" rather than the intrinsic "instead" you saw. However, the dial-up issue trumps everything else, and I don't blame you in the least for your irritation. Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.PDPplanet.org/ http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Aug 10 18:16:44 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2010 19:16:44 -0400 Subject: A New York Town where Pinball is illegal In-Reply-To: <33740.28017.qm@web113507.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <6F9542E7505C40AEAA28C473798E07B0@vl420mt> <33740.28017.qm@web113507.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > I had to post this because it talks about a venue that would be dear to many people here.. > > Guy puts together a vintage pinball and games museum in NY > > NY has old law stating pinball is illegal > > He will probably go out of business. Every town in the US has old laws on the books like this that when challenged in modern times, completely fall apart in the courts and only piss off the judges. No town prosecutor wants to be in that situation. Hell, officially next time I see Curt at the post office and his shirt and pants are not matching, I am busting him. The law is still on the books in Carmel. -- WIll From lproven at gmail.com Tue Aug 10 18:39:50 2010 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 00:39:50 +0100 Subject: GET LAMP is here In-Reply-To: <20100810125109.M61892@shell.lmi.net> References: <20100810125109.M61892@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On 10 August 2010 21:32, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Mon, 9 Aug 2010, Gene Buckle wrote: >> Well frankly, if I had any idea that you'd go Old Man McClusky on me while >> waving your cane in my face and raving about these damn kids, I just may >> have. ?Unfortunately I constantly forget that you like to party like it's >> 1979. > > HELL, YES!! ? ? You damn kids today have no clue how to party. > Herpes was the worst incurable STD in those days. > > I will gladly find and give John Titor a 5100 (with APL AND BASIC) > if he will just drop me off in 1979. ?I'll throw in a 360 > for a one-way to the 1960s. ?That's for one-way. Ooooh oooh ooh! Can I come? Please? When the '60s ended, I was nearly 3. I missed all the fun. > For round-trip, all he gets is Valtrep. [Mirth] Oh, come on. We can give him a PDP/11 running OS/2, at least! -- Liam Proven ? Profile & links: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From legalize at xmission.com Tue Aug 10 21:13:46 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2010 20:13:46 -0600 Subject: GET LAMP is here In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 10 Aug 2010 16:09:38 -0400. <4C61B202.1050403@neurotica.com> Message-ID: [100% entirely predictable linux/windows bigotry from Dave McGuire.] Dude, you really need to get some new material. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Aug 10 22:15:37 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2010 23:15:37 -0400 Subject: GET LAMP is here In-Reply-To: <20100810225432.GC365@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> References: <20100809163517.M21499@shell.lmi.net> <4C60E2D8.4040301@jetnet.ab.ca> <20100809223554.N21499@shell.lmi.net> <022a01cb389c$6fa0e4a0$9201a8c0@portajara> <20100810195908.GA365@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> <4C61B202.1050403@neurotica.com> <20100810225432.GC365@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> Message-ID: > They probably found the price of (replacement) vt520s going up a bit too > much for the size of their company. And a small Linux capable box for > terminal like jobs can be had _very_ cheap - the alix3d3 sells for > around USD 125 including systemboard, case and powerbrick. Thats a > AMD Geode 500 Mhz with 256 MB of memory, network, USB, VGA (can do > 1280x1024), audio on board. Very low power draw as well, boots from CF. > The case is about 15x15x3 cm, you could just stick that behind the monitor. An AMD Geode 500 Mhz with 256 MB of memory, network, USB, VGA (can do1280x1024), audio on board, just to be a dumb terminal. Bloat? What bloat? -- Will From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Aug 10 22:27:12 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2010 23:27:12 -0400 Subject: GET LAMP is here In-Reply-To: References: <20100809163517.M21499@shell.lmi.net> <4C60E2D8.4040301@jetnet.ab.ca> <20100809223554.N21499@shell.lmi.net> <022a01cb389c$6fa0e4a0$9201a8c0@portajara> <20100810195908.GA365@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> <4C61B202.1050403@neurotica.com> <20100810225432.GC365@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> Message-ID: <4C621890.9000600@neurotica.com> On 8/10/10 11:15 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >> They probably found the price of (replacement) vt520s going up a bit too >> much for the size of their company. And a small Linux capable box for >> terminal like jobs can be had _very_ cheap - the alix3d3 sells for >> around USD 125 including systemboard, case and powerbrick. Thats a >> AMD Geode 500 Mhz with 256 MB of memory, network, USB, VGA (can do >> 1280x1024), audio on board. Very low power draw as well, boots from CF. >> The case is about 15x15x3 cm, you could just stick that behind the monitor. > > An AMD Geode 500 Mhz with 256 MB of memory, network, USB, VGA (can > do1280x1024), audio on board, just to be a dumb terminal. > > Bloat? What bloat? Yeah, it's pretty disgusting. Amazingly though, it's actually cheaper to do it that way than to buy a VT520. Scary stuff. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Aug 10 22:33:48 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2010 23:33:48 -0400 Subject: GET LAMP is here In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C621A1C.3040800@neurotica.com> On 8/10/10 10:13 PM, Richard wrote: > [100% entirely predictable linux/windows bigotry from Dave McGuire.] > > Dude, you really need to get some new material. I wish I had the time to come up with some actual bigotry, because that can be fun. For now I'll just stick to getting rid of the damn things as quickly as I can. Twenty six so far this year, two in the past week! I won't get them all, but I'll do my part to undo the twenty-year backrolling of technology pushed upon the inexperienced by Microsoft. Since you choose to brand my comments as bigotry, something for which we both seem to be known, perhaps you'd like to hear the actual business-robbing, soul-killing sob stories that resulted in those customers jumping off of the Windows ship. Somehow I doubt it, but I'll tell you if you like. I don't think you'll be left in much of a defensible position. (Hey, all I did was say slicked-back, suit-wearing, advertisement-obeying Windows fanboys rarely get laid! ;)) -Dave, not feeling particularly hospitable today PS, and on-topic: You never replied to my off-list messages about that Unibus video subsystem I offered you a year or two ago. I assume they've been caught in a spam trap or something. Do you want it? If so, it's yours for the cost of shipping, let me know. -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Aug 10 22:53:31 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2010 23:53:31 -0400 Subject: Speaking of Bernoullis... Message-ID: <4C621EBB.3040502@neurotica.com> I'd love to use 5.25" Bernoullis as removable storage on a PDP-11 via a Qbus SCSI host adapter. Does anyone know offhand if any of the common boards, like the CMD CQD-223, will properly handle a drive with 256 bytes per sector? I know it's a bit odd to think about, but it seems like a good idea to me, if it'll work. If nobody pipes up and says it definitely won't work, perhaps I'll dig up a Bernoulli drive and try it at some point. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From quapla at xs4all.nl Wed Aug 11 01:08:51 2010 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (E. Groenenberg) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 08:08:51 +0200 Subject: OT?: Re: A New York Town where Pinball is illegal In-Reply-To: <33740.28017.qm@web113507.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <33740.28017.qm@web113507.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <051a274d9e94600a07905abe1f5e97ed.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Well if the mayor says 'it is a slow process' why not handing out a permit with a set time that allows that venue to 'show and operate vintage arcade machines' for entertainment purposes? In that case both sides are happy, the owner to continue his business and the council to go though the process. Oh well, burocrats..... Ed > I had to post this because it talks about a venue that would be dear to > many people here.. > > Guy puts together a vintage pinball and games museum in NY > > NY has old law stating pinball is illegal > > He will probably go out of business. > > http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/crime/2010/08/07/pkg.chernoff.pinball.ban.cnn? > > > > -- Dit is een HTML vrije email / This is an HTML free email. From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Aug 11 02:14:31 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 00:14:31 -0700 Subject: New acquisition... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C624DD7.5040503@brouhaha.com> Tony Duell wrote: > Nice machine. The QX10 is one of my favourite desktop CP/M machines. The > video system is based round a 7220, the serial port (IIRC) uses a 7201. > Using a uPD7201 for the serial port is a strike against it. High speed modems that transport asynchronous data over a synchronous modulation, such as V.22, V.22bis, V.32, etc., have to use V.14 procedures to handle cases where the transmitting device is overspeed relative to the modulation, or the transmitting modem is overspeed relative to the receiving side. In the former case, up to one out of ten stop bits get dropped over the modulation, and reinserted on the receiving side. When that happens, or in the case that the transmitting system's modulation is faster than the receiving side (due to crystal tolerances, etc.), the receiving side is allowed to shave off a portion of each stop bit on the serial interface. That works fine with 99.9% of UARTs out there, which only require 9/16 of a stop bit for a valid receive character, and to start watching for the next start bit. The uPD7201 requires a full stop bit, so is not compliant with the V.14 standard, and will garble data and report framing errors when V.14 stop bit shortening occurs This was a huge problem for people using V.22bis or V.32 modems with the AT&T 7300 or 3B1 Unix PC, as they used the 7201. It's less of a problem since the adoption of V.42 error control, because when using V.42 there is normally hardware flow control at both ends, and V.42 can apply "back pressure" across the modem link to slow down a transmitting system as needed. Eric From als at thangorodrim.de Wed Aug 11 02:02:49 2010 From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 09:02:49 +0200 Subject: GET LAMP is here In-Reply-To: References: <20100809163517.M21499@shell.lmi.net> <4C60E2D8.4040301@jetnet.ab.ca> <20100809223554.N21499@shell.lmi.net> <022a01cb389c$6fa0e4a0$9201a8c0@portajara> <20100810195908.GA365@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> <4C61B202.1050403@neurotica.com> <20100810225432.GC365@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> Message-ID: <20100811070249.GA24723@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> On Tue, Aug 10, 2010 at 11:15:37PM -0400, William Donzelli wrote: > > They probably found the price of (replacement) vt520s going up a bit too > > much for the size of their company. And a small Linux capable box for > > terminal like jobs can be had _very_ cheap - the alix3d3 sells for > > around USD 125 including systemboard, case and powerbrick. Thats a > > AMD Geode 500 Mhz with 256 MB of memory, network, USB, VGA (can do > > 1280x1024), audio on board. Very low power draw as well, boots from CF. > > The case is about 15x15x3 cm, you could just stick that behind the monitor. > > An AMD Geode 500 Mhz with 256 MB of memory, network, USB, VGA (can > do1280x1024), audio on board, just to be a dumb terminal. > > Bloat? What bloat? Of course it's bloat - but it is a machine that one can easily get new and in quantity and that will probably will remain so for a while. I'd guess getting vt520 im numbers would be a) more expensive b) harder to aquire unless someone is still making them ... And while we are at it: quite a few _cellphones_ these days have more computing power than that. For a cellphone ... Kind regards, Alex. -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Aug 11 02:24:21 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 00:24:21 -0700 Subject: New acquisition... In-Reply-To: <4C615477.31275.13C93B3@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4C61AB37.6010609@neurotica.com> <4C615477.31275.13C93B3@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4C625025.9090300@brouhaha.com> Chuck Guzis wrote about the Epson QX10 and Valdocs: > I believe the Forth thing extended to their clone CP/M, called TP/M. > There are some subtle differences between the two. Done by a San > Franscisco outfit, with a name like "Friends-Amis"? > Not sure about their involvement with the QX10, but they developed the Matsushita (Panasonic and Quasar) HHC, which was 6502-based. Much of the software for the HHC was written in SNAP, which was a token-threaded dialect of Forth. Unless you have the extremely rare SNAP FORTH module, SNAP is not exposed to the user. There was also a SNAP BASIC module, which contained a BASIC interpreter written in SNAP. This is NOT the same as the Microsoft BASIC module, which was a port of Microsoft's normal 6502 BASIC, very similar to the KIM-1 version. From shoppa at trailing-edge.com Wed Aug 11 03:02:06 2010 From: shoppa at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 04:02:06 -0400 Subject: 3270 Personal Computer Message-ID: <20100811080206.51C301E0227@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Further from the details of the OP, but a little closer to the spirit of the OP and more DECish: I remember students calling up when they had trouble running their Fortran homework programs through the compiler on the "VT100 computer running VMS". Even today the computer hardware on the desk is often blamed when it's really really some backend website that's FUBAR or Microsoft's Windows getting infected by spyware. And as long as we're talking about people who get confused by the label on the computer devices in front of them, where's the guy who swears up and down that he has OS/2 for the PDP-11 and that he was using the predecessor to Fortran in 1982? None of the above people are evil, just misguided and in need of some nudges. But it's sad that the computer industry is so confusing that the nudges are needed, and that the folks who decide what brand gets buys are so often swayed by the brandname of something on their desk rather than reality. Tim. From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Aug 11 07:55:39 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 08:55:39 -0400 Subject: GET LAMP is here In-Reply-To: <20100811070249.GA24723@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> References: <20100809163517.M21499@shell.lmi.net> <4C60E2D8.4040301@jetnet.ab.ca> <20100809223554.N21499@shell.lmi.net> <022a01cb389c$6fa0e4a0$9201a8c0@portajara> <20100810195908.GA365@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> <4C61B202.1050403@neurotica.com> <20100810225432.GC365@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> <20100811070249.GA24723@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> Message-ID: > Of course it's bloat - but it is a machine that one can easily get new > and in quantity and that will probably will remain so for a while. I'd > guess getting vt520 im numbers would be a) more expensive b) harder to > aquire unless someone is still making them ... Depending on the numbers needed - maybe or maybe not. There are a *lot* of late model dumb terminals on the surplus and reseller market right now. Given the glut, coupled with the vanishing number of applications, they can be purchased pretty cheap in quantity. -- Will From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Wed Aug 11 05:03:20 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 07:03:20 -0300 Subject: GET LAMP is here References: <20100809163517.M21499@shell.lmi.net> <4C60E2D8.4040301@jetnet.ab.ca> <20100809223554.N21499@shell.lmi.net> <022a01cb389c$6fa0e4a0$9201a8c0@portajara> <20100810195908.GA365@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> <4C61B202.1050403@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <085001cb3957$1adadc80$9201a8c0@portajara> > And in my experience, *only* UNIX people tend to get laid, because > they're the only ones with any sense of style. > Windows people seem to go after really skanky women. No standards > across the board, ya know. Even in Sweden? :o) Greetings from Brazil, blah blah blah :) Alexandre Souza, PU1BZZ From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Wed Aug 11 05:07:50 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 07:07:50 -0300 Subject: GET LAMP is here References: <4C621A1C.3040800@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <085201cb3957$1e58dfb0$9201a8c0@portajara> > -Dave, not feeling particularly hospitable today Get a rubber duck and one of that baseball bats made of foam. It is nice to make a bad day in a funny day :) From dkelvey at hotmail.com Wed Aug 11 09:37:21 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 07:37:21 -0700 Subject: SparcBook Tadpole In-Reply-To: <4C60BEAC.5080609@neurotica.com> References: <992230.97947.qm@web52604.mail.re2.yahoo.com>, , <4C60BEAC.5080609@neurotica.com> Message-ID: Hi With the help of Jim S and Dave McGuire, I got my Spacrbook working. It does have an issue. It says the clock it not working and needs to be set. I opened is up to clean any remaining KOH from leaky NiCads and saw it had one of those MK48T02B chips in it. I tried doing a search on google for anyone hacking these chips to replace the battery but all I got were chip sales. There is some on ebay but I don't know if the batteries will be any good. I suspect the battery has some life. It still boots with a hostname and ethernet address but how much longer, who knows. Dwight From cclist at sydex.com Wed Aug 11 09:57:11 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 07:57:11 -0700 Subject: SparcBook Tadpole In-Reply-To: References: <992230.97947.qm@web52604.mail.re2.yahoo.com>, <4C60BEAC.5080609@neurotica.com>, Message-ID: <4C6257D7.24803.67DE35@cclist.sydex.com> On 11 Aug 2010 at 7:37, dwight elvey wrote: > With the help of Jim S and Dave McGuire, I got my Spacrbook working. > It does have an issue. It says the clock it not working and needs to > be set. I opened is up to clean any remaining KOH from leaky NiCads > and saw it had one of those MK48T02B chips in it. > I tried doing a search on google for anyone hacking these chips > to replace the battery but all I got were chip sales. > There is some on ebay but I don't know if the batteries will > be any good. > I suspect the battery has some life. It still boots with a hostname > and ethernet address but how much longer, who knows. Dwight The part appears to be identical to the Dallas/Maxim DS1642. DigiKey, Mouser, etc. show them in their catalogs. Not cheap, but available. --Chuck From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Wed Aug 11 09:51:18 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 11:51:18 -0300 Subject: SparcBook Tadpole References: <992230.97947.qm@web52604.mail.re2.yahoo.com>, , <4C60BEAC.5080609@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <08fa01cb3967$3f6269a0$9201a8c0@portajara> > I tried doing a search on google for anyone hacking these chips >to replace the battery but all I got were chip sales. Easy for us :) The chip is a plastic box. In this box there is a common chip, and some batteries on top. Cut the box with a plier and you'll see the batteries, it is that simple. Change the batteries, and be happy :) From dkelvey at hotmail.com Wed Aug 11 10:29:30 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 08:29:30 -0700 Subject: SparcBook Tadpole In-Reply-To: <08fa01cb3967$3f6269a0$9201a8c0@portajara> References: <992230.97947.qm@web52604.mail.re2.yahoo.com>, , , , <4C60BEAC.5080609@neurotica.com>, , <08fa01cb3967$3f6269a0$9201a8c0@portajara> Message-ID: > From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com > > > I tried doing a search on google for anyone hacking these chips > >to replace the battery but all I got were chip sales. > > Easy for us :) > > The chip is a plastic box. In this box there is a common chip, and some > batteries on top. Cut the box with a plier and you'll see the batteries, it > is that simple. Change the batteries, and be happy :) > Hi Sounds good. So, the SST parts are just a plastic cover. I know the Dallas parts are potted but one has to know where to grind. If this is just a cover, a few minutes with a hacksaw blade or knife should do it. Dwight From legalize at xmission.com Wed Aug 11 11:28:55 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 10:28:55 -0600 Subject: GET LAMP is here In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 10 Aug 2010 23:33:48 -0400. <4C621A1C.3040800@neurotica.com> Message-ID: In article <4C621A1C.3040800 at neurotica.com>, Dave McGuire writes: > Since you choose to brand my comments as bigotry, something for which > we both seem to be known, [...] Actually its just you. I don't particularly care about your sob stories or your endless whinging about Windows. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Aug 11 11:38:36 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 12:38:36 -0400 Subject: GET LAMP is here In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C62D20C.10407@neurotica.com> On 8/11/10 12:28 PM, Richard wrote: >> Since you choose to brand my comments as bigotry, something for which >> we both seem to be known, [...] > > Actually its just you. Not so much, actually. I'm usually the one who pops up complaining about Windows, and you're usually the one who pops up contradicting it. But hey, it's all in good fun. Speaking of good fun...the first release of Windows I was exposed to was 1.03. Any idea if it'll run under VMware? > I don't particularly care about your sob stories or your endless > whinging about Windows. They're not MY sob stories, because I don't use Windows. They're my customers', and fortunately I can usually get rid of the garbage. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Aug 11 11:45:09 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 12:45:09 -0400 Subject: SparcBook Tadpole In-Reply-To: References: <992230.97947.qm@web52604.mail.re2.yahoo.com>, , <4C60BEAC.5080609@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4C62D395.2030104@neurotica.com> On 8/11/10 10:37 AM, dwight elvey wrote: > With the help of Jim S and Dave McGuire, I got my Spacrbook working. Woohooo! > It does have an issue. It says the clock it not working and needs to be > set. I opened is up to clean any remaining KOH from leaky NiCads > and saw it had one of those MK48T02B chips in it. > I tried doing a search on google for anyone hacking these chips > to replace the battery but all I got were chip sales. I've seen pages documenting this, but that was years ago. The chip sales sites (for companies who may or may not actually HAVE the chips they're trying to sell, grumble) have certainly swamped that stuff, as you've found. I suggest progressive google search refinement to find the right stuff, as I know it's out there. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From legalize at xmission.com Wed Aug 11 11:52:52 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 10:52:52 -0600 Subject: GET LAMP is here In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 11 Aug 2010 12:38:36 -0400. <4C62D20C.10407@neurotica.com> Message-ID: In article <4C62D20C.10407 at neurotica.com>, Dave McGuire writes: > Not so much, actually. I'm usually the one who pops up complaining > about Windows, and you're usually the one who pops up contradicting it. No, you're the one constantly complaining about Windows and I'm just the one asking you to give it a rest. Me saying I've never had problems with Windows is not the same thing as being bigoted about it. I actually don't care what OS people use and if people ask me for a recommendation, I tell them to try different ones and use what works best for them. You constantly whinge on about Windows, even when its not relevant and even when we've heard you whinge on about it a billion times already. You're a broken record. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From IanK at vulcan.com Wed Aug 11 11:54:38 2010 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 09:54:38 -0700 Subject: GET LAMP is here In-Reply-To: References: <20100809163517.M21499@shell.lmi.net> <4C60E2D8.4040301@jetnet.ab.ca> <20100809223554.N21499@shell.lmi.net> <022a01cb389c$6fa0e4a0$9201a8c0@portajara> <20100810195908.GA365@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> <4C61B202.1050403@neurotica.com> <20100810225432.GC365@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> <20100811070249.GA24723@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of William Donzelli > Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 2010 5:56 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: GET LAMP is here > > > Of course it's bloat - but it is a machine that one can easily get > new > > and in quantity and that will probably will remain so for a while. > I'd > > guess getting vt520 im numbers would be a) more expensive b) harder > to > > aquire unless someone is still making them ... > > Depending on the numbers needed - maybe or maybe not. There are a > *lot* of late model dumb terminals on the surplus and reseller market > right now. Given the glut, coupled with the vanishing number of > applications, they can be purchased pretty cheap in quantity. > > -- > Will Of course, shipping for, say a hundred VT520s is significantly higher than for those modern replacements - even when you add in the (now LCD) screen. Oh that's right, you can just go down to Best Buy (which rarely is) to buy the screens.... That's not to say I don't have a personal preference for the originals - I have mostly VT420s at home, and we're refurbishing a bunch of VT100s and VT52s here at work. -- Ian From IanK at vulcan.com Wed Aug 11 11:55:16 2010 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 09:55:16 -0700 Subject: GET LAMP is here In-Reply-To: <085201cb3957$1e58dfb0$9201a8c0@portajara> References: <4C621A1C.3040800@neurotica.com> <085201cb3957$1e58dfb0$9201a8c0@portajara> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Alexandre Souza - Listas > Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 2010 3:08 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: GET LAMP is here > > > -Dave, not feeling particularly hospitable today > > Get a rubber duck and one of that baseball bats made of foam. It is > nice > to make a bad day in a funny day :) > What a great piece of advice! I wonder if I can expense that. :-) From pat at computer-refuge.org Wed Aug 11 11:57:26 2010 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 12:57:26 -0400 Subject: SparcBook Tadpole In-Reply-To: <4C62D395.2030104@neurotica.com> References: <992230.97947.qm@web52604.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <4C62D395.2030104@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <201008111257.26329.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Wednesday 11 August 2010, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 8/11/10 10:37 AM, dwight elvey wrote: > > It does have an issue. It says the clock it not working and needs > > to be set. I opened is up to clean any remaining KOH from leaky > > NiCads and saw it had one of those MK48T02B chips in it. > > I tried doing a search on google for anyone hacking these chips > > to replace the battery but all I got were chip sales. > > I've seen pages documenting this, but that was years ago. The chip > sales sites (for companies who may or may not actually HAVE the chips > they're trying to sell, grumble) have certainly swamped that stuff, > as you've found. I suggest progressive google search refinement to > find the right stuff, as I know it's out there. First google result for "Sun NVRAM battery replacement": http://www.bhargavaz.com/nvram/nvram.html Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From IanK at vulcan.com Wed Aug 11 12:00:25 2010 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 10:00:25 -0700 Subject: SparcBook Tadpole In-Reply-To: <08fa01cb3967$3f6269a0$9201a8c0@portajara> References: <992230.97947.qm@web52604.mail.re2.yahoo.com>, , <4C60BEAC.5080609@neurotica.com> <08fa01cb3967$3f6269a0$9201a8c0@portajara> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Alexandre Souza - Listas > Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 2010 7:51 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: SparcBook Tadpole > > > I tried doing a search on google for anyone hacking these chips > >to replace the battery but all I got were chip sales. > > Easy for us :) > > The chip is a plastic box. In this box there is a common chip, and > some > batteries on top. Cut the box with a plier and you'll see the > batteries, it > is that simple. Change the batteries, and be happy :) > I recently replaced one of those parts in my Sparcstation Voyager. The part from DigiKey was only about USD $20, which I figured was a better deal than my time spent grinding and cutting and splicing.... -- Ian From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Aug 11 12:04:32 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 13:04:32 -0400 Subject: GET LAMP is here In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C62D820.7010304@neurotica.com> On 8/11/10 12:52 PM, Richard wrote: >> Not so much, actually. I'm usually the one who pops up complaining >> about Windows, and you're usually the one who pops up contradicting it. > > No, you're the one constantly complaining about Windows and I'm just > the one asking you to give it a rest. > > Me saying I've never had problems with Windows is not the same thing > as being bigoted about it. I agreed. But just the same, my saying "it sucks" isn't bigotry either. I speak from facts (well-known ones, I might add) and experience. In other words, I don't say "Windows sucks" because I don't like it...I don't like it because it sucks. You're assuming the causality relationship is the opposite of what it really is, which, I'm sorry to say, is extremely common amongst the "Microsoft can do no wrong" crowd. > I actually don't care what OS people use and if people ask me for a > recommendation, I tell them to try different ones and use what works > best for them. > > You constantly whinge on about Windows, even when its not relevant and > even when we've heard you whinge on about it a billion times already. I'll admit that I started it this time, but I usually don't. I chime in with commiseration when someone poo-poos it, and then you pounce on me with Microsoft fanboy-ism. THAT crap really gets old. As I told a friend in private email not five minutes ago, I have a *great deal* of respect for you in the areas in which you know what you're talking about (graphics) but not so much for the areas you don't (modern operating systems). Fortunately, the latter isn't really the topic here. > You're a broken record. Pot, kettle. ;) At any rate, it was not my intention to drag this even further off-topic (honestly) and I certainly didn't mean to "get into it" with you once again. For that I apologize. We're not going to convince each other. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Aug 11 12:05:24 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 13:05:24 -0400 Subject: GET LAMP is here In-Reply-To: References: <20100809163517.M21499@shell.lmi.net> <4C60E2D8.4040301@jetnet.ab.ca> <20100809223554.N21499@shell.lmi.net> <022a01cb389c$6fa0e4a0$9201a8c0@portajara> <20100810195908.GA365@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> <4C61B202.1050403@neurotica.com> <20100810225432.GC365@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> <20100811070249.GA24723@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> Message-ID: <4C62D854.8050203@neurotica.com> On 8/11/10 8:55 AM, William Donzelli wrote: >> Of course it's bloat - but it is a machine that one can easily get new >> and in quantity and that will probably will remain so for a while. I'd >> guess getting vt520 im numbers would be a) more expensive b) harder to >> aquire unless someone is still making them ... > > Depending on the numbers needed - maybe or maybe not. There are a > *lot* of late model dumb terminals on the surplus and reseller market > right now. Given the glut, coupled with the vanishing number of > applications, they can be purchased pretty cheap in quantity. Absolutely. But getting customers to buy "used" equipment ("eeeew, it's USED!") is damn near impossible much of the time. I don't understand that mentality at all, but it's way too common. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Aug 11 12:05:47 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 13:05:47 -0400 Subject: SparcBook Tadpole In-Reply-To: <201008111257.26329.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <992230.97947.qm@web52604.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <4C62D395.2030104@neurotica.com> <201008111257.26329.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: On 8/11/10, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > First google result for "Sun NVRAM battery replacement": > > http://www.bhargavaz.com/nvram/nvram.html Ooh... I've seen that page before, and that technique looks dangerous (the soldering to the Li battery part). I've replaced batteries on "Timekeepers" before, but I either use the batteries that have solder tabs pre-welded onto them, or use a snap-in battery carrier and solder the leads from that to the chip. -ethan From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Aug 11 12:06:07 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 13:06:07 -0400 Subject: GET LAMP is here In-Reply-To: <085201cb3957$1e58dfb0$9201a8c0@portajara> References: <4C621A1C.3040800@neurotica.com> <085201cb3957$1e58dfb0$9201a8c0@portajara> Message-ID: <4C62D87F.5050703@neurotica.com> On 8/11/10 6:07 AM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >> -Dave, not feeling particularly hospitable today > > Get a rubber duck and one of that baseball bats made of foam. It is > nice to make a bad day in a funny day :) ROFL!!! -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From legalize at xmission.com Wed Aug 11 12:12:30 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 11:12:30 -0600 Subject: GET LAMP is here In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 11 Aug 2010 13:04:32 -0400. <4C62D820.7010304@neurotica.com> Message-ID: *plonk* -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Wed Aug 11 12:07:07 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 14:07:07 -0300 Subject: GET LAMP is here References: Message-ID: <09b701cb3978$e93e8b00$9201a8c0@portajara> >> Since you choose to brand my comments as bigotry, something for which >> we both seem to be known, [...] > Actually its just you. > I don't particularly care about your sob stories or your endless > whinging about Windows. Round one...FIGHT! :oD From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Wed Aug 11 12:09:12 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 14:09:12 -0300 Subject: SparcBook Tadpole References: <992230.97947.qm@web52604.mail.re2.yahoo.com>, , <4C60BEAC.5080609@neurotica.com> <4C62D395.2030104@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <09b801cb3978$eb904330$9201a8c0@portajara> > I've seen pages documenting this, but that was years ago. The chip > sales sites (for companies who may or may not actually HAVE the chips > they're trying to sell, grumble) have certainly swamped that stuff, as > you've found. I suggest progressive google search refinement to find > the right stuff, as I know it's out there. There is an add-on for firefox that you can isolate entire sites or sections of sites on google search. I use it at home, in my desktop. Unfortunately my desktop is still stored (I may remember you I just moved to Sao Paulo). But I'll try to look for it this week From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Wed Aug 11 12:09:41 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 14:09:41 -0300 Subject: GET LAMP is here References: Message-ID: <09b901cb3978$ee24a9b0$9201a8c0@portajara> > You constantly whinge on about Windows, even when its not relevant and > even when we've heard you whinge on about it a billion times already. > You're a broken record. Is it round two? :o) From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Wed Aug 11 12:11:45 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 14:11:45 -0300 Subject: GET LAMP is here References: <4C621A1C.3040800@neurotica.com><085201cb3957$1e58dfb0$9201a8c0@portajara> Message-ID: <09ba01cb3978$f08492b0$9201a8c0@portajara> > > -Dave, not feeling particularly hospitable today > Get a rubber duck and one of that baseball bats made of foam. It is > nice > to make a bad day in a funny day :) >What a great piece of advice! I wonder if I can expense that. :-) I remember some years ago there was a baseball bat made of foam, you coud use to slam your television if you see something you don't like. Since it was connected to the power outlet of the TV set, and if I'm not mistaken to the video input, it flashed the tv and turned it off for some seconds. Man, it was FUN! :o) From pat at computer-refuge.org Wed Aug 11 12:17:10 2010 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 13:17:10 -0400 Subject: VAX on a cell phone Message-ID: <201008111317.10868.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Wednesday, August 11, 2010, Alexander Schreiber wrote: > And while we are at it: quite a few _cellphones_ these days have more > computing power than that. For a cellphone ... In that vein, I have spent some time over the past week or so setting up my cell phone (an HTC Evo running Android) to emulate a VAX by running SIMH. http://worldofvax.blogspot.com/2010/08/compiling-simh-emulators-for- android.html And then using a VT125 for its console: http://worldofvax.blogspot.com/2010/08/htc-evo-and-vt125.html Enjoy the insanity! Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Aug 11 12:27:20 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 13:27:20 -0400 Subject: GET LAMP is here In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C62DD78.2070209@neurotica.com> On 8/11/10 1:12 PM, Richard wrote: > *plonk* He shoots, he scores! -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Aug 11 12:28:07 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 13:28:07 -0400 Subject: GET LAMP is here In-Reply-To: <09ba01cb3978$f08492b0$9201a8c0@portajara> References: <4C621A1C.3040800@neurotica.com><085201cb3957$1e58dfb0$9201a8c0@portajara> <09ba01cb3978$f08492b0$9201a8c0@portajara> Message-ID: <4C62DDA7.3050700@neurotica.com> On 8/11/10 1:11 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >> > -Dave, not feeling particularly hospitable today >> Get a rubber duck and one of that baseball bats made of foam. It is >> nice >> to make a bad day in a funny day :) >> What a great piece of advice! I wonder if I can expense that. :-) > > I remember some years ago there was a baseball bat made of foam, you > coud use to slam your television if you see something you don't like. > Since it was connected to the power outlet of the TV set, and if I'm not > mistaken to the video input, it flashed the tv and turned it off for > some seconds. Man, it was FUN! :o) YES! I remember those! Where did they go? Not that I watch TV anyway, but that could be useful for other things as well. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Wed Aug 11 12:18:30 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 14:18:30 -0300 Subject: SparcBook Tadpole References: <992230.97947.qm@web52604.mail.re2.yahoo.com><4C62D395.2030104@neurotica.com><201008111257.26329.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <09e801cb397a$b1a84760$9201a8c0@portajara> > Ooh... I've seen that page before, and that technique looks dangerous > (the soldering to the Li battery part). I've done it hundreds of times, you just need to be fast and having a good solder :P From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Aug 11 12:29:04 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 13:29:04 -0400 Subject: VAX on a cell phone In-Reply-To: <201008111317.10868.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <201008111317.10868.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <4C62DDE0.10503@neurotica.com> On 8/11/10 1:17 PM, Patrick Finnegan wrote: >> And while we are at it: quite a few _cellphones_ these days have more >> computing power than that. For a cellphone ... > > In that vein, I have spent some time over the past week or so setting up > my cell phone (an HTC Evo running Android) to emulate a VAX by running > SIMH. > > http://worldofvax.blogspot.com/2010/08/compiling-simh-emulators-for- > android.html > > And then using a VT125 for its console: > > http://worldofvax.blogspot.com/2010/08/htc-evo-and-vt125.html > > Enjoy the insanity! Most excellent! -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Aug 11 12:29:24 2010 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 10:29:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: VAX on a cell phone In-Reply-To: <201008111317.10868.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <201008111317.10868.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 11 Aug 2010, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > In that vein, I have spent some time over the past week or so setting up > my cell phone (an HTC Evo running Android) to emulate a VAX by running > SIMH. > > http://worldofvax.blogspot.com/2010/08/compiling-simh-emulators-for- > android.html > > And then using a VT125 for its console: > > http://worldofvax.blogspot.com/2010/08/htc-evo-and-vt125.html > > Enjoy the insanity! So how does it compare speed wise to a MicroVAX II? Zane From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Aug 11 12:32:16 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 13:32:16 -0400 Subject: SparcBook Tadpole In-Reply-To: <09b801cb3978$eb904330$9201a8c0@portajara> References: <992230.97947.qm@web52604.mail.re2.yahoo.com>, , <4C60BEAC.5080609@neurotica.com> <4C62D395.2030104@neurotica.com> <09b801cb3978$eb904330$9201a8c0@portajara> Message-ID: <4C62DEA0.8020908@neurotica.com> On 8/11/10 1:09 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >> I've seen pages documenting this, but that was years ago. The chip >> sales sites (for companies who may or may not actually HAVE the chips >> they're trying to sell, grumble) have certainly swamped that stuff, as >> you've found. I suggest progressive google search refinement to find >> the right stuff, as I know it's out there. > > There is an add-on for firefox that you can isolate entire sites or > sections of sites on google search. I use it at home, in my desktop. > Unfortunately my desktop is still stored (I may remember you I just > moved to Sao Paulo). But I'll try to look for it this week Oh, I'd love that; the whole "experts-exchange.com" domain would finally hit the bit bucket from my browser's perspective. Please let me know the name of this add-on when you can? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Aug 11 12:41:39 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 13:41:39 -0400 Subject: VAX on a cell phone In-Reply-To: <201008111317.10868.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <201008111317.10868.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: On 8/11/10, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > In that vein, I have spent some time over the past week or so setting up > my cell phone (an HTC Evo running Android) to emulate a VAX by running > SIMH... And then using a VT125 for its console: > > http://worldofvax.blogspot.com/2010/08/htc-evo-and-vt125.html > > Enjoy the insanity! Nice. It's handy that you have the terminal servers on hand - I'd be scrounging for a way to get the bits from the terminal to the phone and vice versa. Do you think it would work to get a bluetooth serial interface for the VT125, or would there be no way to induce the phone to pair up to that for a virtual 'comport'? -ethan From pat at computer-refuge.org Wed Aug 11 12:43:16 2010 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 13:43:16 -0400 Subject: VAX on a cell phone In-Reply-To: References: <201008111317.10868.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <201008111343.16554.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Wednesday 11 August 2010, Zane H. Healy wrote: > On Wed, 11 Aug 2010, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > > In that vein, I have spent some time over the past week or so > > setting up my cell phone (an HTC Evo running Android) to emulate a > > VAX by running SIMH. > > > > http://worldofvax.blogspot.com/2010/08/compiling-simh-emulators-for > >- android.html > > > > And then using a VT125 for its console: > > > > http://worldofvax.blogspot.com/2010/08/htc-evo-and-vt125.html > > > > Enjoy the insanity! > > So how does it compare speed wise to a MicroVAX II? I haven't yet booted VMS on it, mostly because I seem to have misplaced the root password for the VMS image I have on the phone. Once I fix that little problem, I'll see what running vups.com tells me. One thing is for sure... the real phone is a whole lot faster than running simh under the android emulator. The speed of that was definitely less than 1 emulated VUP. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From pat at computer-refuge.org Wed Aug 11 12:48:55 2010 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 13:48:55 -0400 Subject: VAX on a cell phone In-Reply-To: References: <201008111317.10868.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <201008111348.55451.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Wednesday 11 August 2010, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 8/11/10, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > > In that vein, I have spent some time over the past week or so > > setting up my cell phone (an HTC Evo running Android) to emulate a > > VAX by running SIMH... And then using a VT125 for its console: > > > > http://worldofvax.blogspot.com/2010/08/htc-evo-and-vt125.html > > > > Enjoy the insanity! > > Nice. It's handy that you have the terminal servers on hand - I'd be > scrounging for a way to get the bits from the terminal to the phone > and vice versa. > > Do you think it would work to get a bluetooth serial interface for > the VT125, or would there be no way to induce the phone to pair up > to that for a virtual 'comport'? Sounds interesting. I've never played with BT stuff, but it's just a Linux environment. With enough effort, you could probably get it to work, but with Simh, it's easier to have something that just can telnet to a particular TCP port on the phone. Maybe I'll try to find some sort of BT serial dongle to try it out. :) Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Wed Aug 11 12:35:45 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 14:35:45 -0300 Subject: VAX on a cell phone References: <201008111317.10868.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <0a0401cb397d$923b34c0$9201a8c0@portajara> > In that vein, I have spent some time over the past week or so setting up > my cell phone (an HTC Evo running Android) to emulate a VAX by running > SIMH. In a word: W O W ! ! ! I have more computing power in my pocket than anyhing that was used to take the man to the moon :) From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Wed Aug 11 12:50:47 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 14:50:47 -0300 Subject: GET LAMP is here References: <4C621A1C.3040800@neurotica.com><085201cb3957$1e58dfb0$9201a8c0@portajara> <09ba01cb3978$f08492b0$9201a8c0@portajara> <4C62DDA7.3050700@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <0a2e01cb397e$81b3d520$9201a8c0@portajara> >> I remember some years ago there was a baseball bat made of foam, you >> coud use to slam your television if you see something you don't like. >> Since it was connected to the power outlet of the TV set, and if I'm not >> mistaken to the video input, it flashed the tv and turned it off for >> some seconds. Man, it was FUN! :o) > YES! I remember those! Where did they go? Not that I watch TV > anyway, but that could be useful for other things as well. YOU live in USA :) Maybe you can track where it went ;) From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Wed Aug 11 12:55:06 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 14:55:06 -0300 Subject: VAX on a cell phone References: <201008111317.10868.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <0a3201cb397e$857e2390$9201a8c0@portajara> > Do you think it would work to get a bluetooth serial interface for the > VT125, or would there be no way to induce the phone to pair up to that > for a virtual 'comport'? Look for SEMA (or SENA?) bluetooth adapters From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Wed Aug 11 12:54:16 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 14:54:16 -0300 Subject: SparcBook Tadpole References: <992230.97947.qm@web52604.mail.re2.yahoo.com>, , <4C60BEAC.5080609@neurotica.com> <4C62D395.2030104@neurotica.com><09b801cb3978$eb904330$9201a8c0@portajara> <4C62DEA0.8020908@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <0a2f01cb397e$83870e80$9201a8c0@portajara> > Oh, I'd love that; the whole "experts-exchange.com" domain would > finally hit the bit bucket from my browser's perspective. Please let me > know the name of this add-on when you can? SurfClarity! https://addons.mozilla.org/pt-BR/firefox/addon/12305/ This is essential for me. I excluded many of the sales and spam sites. I wish it had a better import/export excluded site list ;) From dm561 at torfree.net Wed Aug 11 14:12:26 2010 From: dm561 at torfree.net (MikeS) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 14:12:26 -0500 Subject: GET LAMP is here References: Message-ID: Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 12:38:36 -0400 From: Dave McGuire Subject: Re: GET LAMP is here On 8/11/10 12:28 PM, Richard wrote: >>> Since you choose to brand my comments as bigotry, something for which >>> we both seem to be known, [...] >> >> Actually its just you. > Not so much, actually. I'm usually the one who pops up complaining >about Windows, and you're usually the one who pops up contradicting it. > But hey, it's all in good fun. > -Dave ------------------ Hmm, let's see... "A bigot is a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices." Gotta admit, that sounds like you all right, at least in this context. So, in your view someone who objects to bigotry is also a bigot? Interesting logic... @ Richard: Give it up. No point in arguing with folks who have a need to tell us at every opportunity that they're smarter, better, whatever, than all those Windows lusers out there; just smile tolerantly and ignore them. We know who *really* "gets" more, MS or 'nix types, don't we...? But hey, it's all in good fun. mike From IanK at vulcan.com Wed Aug 11 13:23:24 2010 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 11:23:24 -0700 Subject: VAX on a cell phone In-Reply-To: <201008111348.55451.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <201008111317.10868.pat@computer-refuge.org> <201008111348.55451.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Patrick Finnegan > Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 2010 10:49 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: VAX on a cell phone > > On Wednesday 11 August 2010, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > On 8/11/10, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > > > In that vein, I have spent some time over the past week or so > > > setting up my cell phone (an HTC Evo running Android) to emulate a > > > VAX by running SIMH... And then using a VT125 for its console: > > > > > > http://worldofvax.blogspot.com/2010/08/htc-evo-and-vt125.html > > > > > > Enjoy the insanity! > > > > Nice. It's handy that you have the terminal servers on hand - I'd be > > scrounging for a way to get the bits from the terminal to the phone > > and vice versa. > > > > Do you think it would work to get a bluetooth serial interface for > > the VT125, or would there be no way to induce the phone to pair up > > to that for a virtual 'comport'? > > Sounds interesting. I've never played with BT stuff, but it's just a > Linux environment. With enough effort, you could probably get it to > work, but with Simh, it's easier to have something that just can telnet > to a particular TCP port on the phone. > > Maybe I'll try to find some sort of BT serial dongle to try it out. :) > > Pat > -- > Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ > The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org This is extremely cool. About a month ago, I bought an "aPad" - a 7" tablet running Android. I can't wait to run this on my aPad! It has a *nix shell and both soft keyboard and USB, which will either simplify or complicate the UI. :-) Great job, Pat. -- Ian From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Aug 11 13:35:44 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 14:35:44 -0400 Subject: GET LAMP is here In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C62ED80.3000605@neurotica.com> On 8/11/10 3:12 PM, MikeS wrote: > Give it up. No point in arguing with folks who have a need to tell us at > every opportunity that they're smarter, better, whatever, than all those > Windows lusers out there; just smile tolerantly and ignore them. Oh, never once have I asserted that. Again the fanboys choose to twist my words in an effort to marginalize any statement disparaging Windows. This isn't about ME, it's about Microsoft fanboys who pipe up and deny the existence of the troubles that damn near everyone has with that product line. This doesn't make ME any better, either in reality or in my own mind. So, envision yourself as someone who has personally cared very much for cars and car technology all your life, has seen such fads come and go, and has a fiscal and professional responsibility to use and sell what works. Now, if you knew of a group of near-religious devotees to a particular brand of car that was widely known to regularly catch fire while driving down the street in nearly all situations, so blind in their devotion that they loudly assert that these failures don't exist when the whole world sees them, how would you react? I poke fun at the Microsoft-can-do-no-wrong crowd (which I was doing at the start of this thread, because Will Donzelli amusingly suggested that UNIX guys don't get laid) because they're very entertaining when they keep pointing at the blue sky screaming that it's red, over and over and over again, ad infinitum, ad nausem. So, no, this is not about me, and I'm sorry, I'm not going to allow you to label it as such. I'm trying to explain myself here, not justify my position...I have no need to do the latter, while doing the former seems necessary when people try to dismiss an argument by restating it incorrectly. In the interest of on-topicness (topicicity?) I will drop this thread if you guys will. I like and respect most everyone here, and I don't really enjoy pooping in my own yard. I regret that this has gone this far, but I could not let certain statements stand. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Aug 11 13:37:07 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 11:37:07 -0700 Subject: SparcBook Tadpole In-Reply-To: References: <992230.97947.qm@web52604.mail.re2.yahoo.com>, , <4C60BEAC.5080609@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4C62EDD3.3090405@brouhaha.com> On 08/11/2010 07:37 AM, dwight elvey wrote: > With the help of Jim S and Dave McGuire, I got my Spacrbook working. > It does have an issue. It says the clock it not working and needs to be > set. I opened is up to clean any remaining KOH from leaky NiCads > and saw it had one of those MK48T02B chips in it. > I tried doing a search on google for anyone hacking these chips > to replace the battery but all I got were chip sales. > ST absorbed Mostek some years back, so the prefix changed from MK to M, but they're still made. You can get a brand new M48T02 from Digikey for $20.10: http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail&name=497-2827-5-ND From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Aug 11 13:44:47 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 14:44:47 -0400 Subject: SparcBook Tadpole In-Reply-To: <4C62EDD3.3090405@brouhaha.com> References: <992230.97947.qm@web52604.mail.re2.yahoo.com>, , <4C60BEAC.5080609@neurotica.com> <4C62EDD3.3090405@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4C62EF9F.5050108@neurotica.com> On 8/11/10 2:37 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > On 08/11/2010 07:37 AM, dwight elvey wrote: >> With the help of Jim S and Dave McGuire, I got my Spacrbook working. >> It does have an issue. It says the clock it not working and needs to be >> set. I opened is up to clean any remaining KOH from leaky NiCads >> and saw it had one of those MK48T02B chips in it. >> I tried doing a search on google for anyone hacking these chips >> to replace the battery but all I got were chip sales. >> > ST absorbed Mostek some years back, so the prefix changed from MK to M, > but they're still made. You can get a brand new M48T02 from Digikey for > $20.10: > > http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail&name=497-2827-5-ND Note that an nvramrc may be required for these newer parts to work in some Suns. I don't recall how this came up, but it was in my notes from about ten years ago. Here's what you'd need to do at OBP: ok nvedit 0:probe-all 1:install-console 2:banner 3:boot 6:^C ok nvstore ok setenv use-nvramrc? true -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From shumaker at att.net Wed Aug 11 13:52:32 2010 From: shumaker at att.net (steve shumaker) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 14:52:32 -0400 Subject: SparcBook Tadpole In-Reply-To: <4C62DEA0.8020908@neurotica.com> References: <992230.97947.qm@web52604.mail.re2.yahoo.com>, , <4C60BEAC.5080609@neurotica.com> <4C62D395.2030104@neurotica.com> <09b801cb3978$eb904330$9201a8c0@portajara> <4C62DEA0.8020908@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4C62F170.7000702@att.net> yes! definitely update this with more details! Steve On 8/11/2010 1:32 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 8/11/10 1:09 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > >>> I've seen pages documenting this, but that was years ago. The chip >>> sales sites (for companies who may or may not actually HAVE the chips >>> they're trying to sell, grumble) have certainly swamped that stuff, as >>> you've found. I suggest progressive google search refinement to find >>> the right stuff, as I know it's out there. >>> >> There is an add-on for firefox that you can isolate entire sites or >> sections of sites on google search. I use it at home, in my desktop. >> Unfortunately my desktop is still stored (I may remember you I just >> moved to Sao Paulo). But I'll try to look for it this week >> > Oh, I'd love that; the whole "experts-exchange.com" domain would > finally hit the bit bucket from my browser's perspective. Please let me > know the name of this add-on when you can? > > -Dave > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 11 13:00:11 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 19:00:11 +0100 (BST) Subject: GET LAMP is here In-Reply-To: <085201cb3957$1e58dfb0$9201a8c0@portajara> from "Alexandre Souza - Listas" at Aug 11, 10 07:07:50 am Message-ID: > > > -Dave, not feeling particularly hospitable today > > Get a rubber duck and one of that baseball bats made of foam. It is nice > to make a bad day in a funny day :) The mind boggles.... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 11 12:36:58 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 18:36:58 +0100 (BST) Subject: New acquisition... In-Reply-To: from "Mark Davidson" at Aug 10, 10 12:37:11 pm Message-ID: > > One thing to be aware of. The video board cna use wither 4116s or 4164s > > -- 16 of either, all must be the same type. There are some obvious links > > to move if you upgrade the RAM (if you don't shift them, you'll ruin the > > 4164s by applying 12V to them!), but there are also some decoupling > > capacitors that _must_ be removed if you use 4164s. If not, you get ome > > odd corruption after the screen has scrolled a few times. Don't ask how I > > found this out... > > VERY good to know... thank you. The point is that one pin of the DRAM goes from +5V power to the A7 address input. In the former case (4116s), it needs decoupling, in the latter, hacing around 1uF of capacitance to ground _really_ screws up the timing... The problem is that (as ever), dcoupling capacitors are not shown in the scheamtics, so it took me some time to realise what was going on. Incidentally, there are 2 versions of the video board .The later one has a 40 pin gate array chip containing logic that was all TTL on the olderone. Alas both mine are the later type. > My understanding is that Valdocs 2 was written in Forth, and Valdocs 3 I heard a Threaded Interpretted Language, not spccifically Forth. But I can;t comment further -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 11 12:44:13 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 18:44:13 +0100 (BST) Subject: GET LAMP is here In-Reply-To: <20100810125109.M61892@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Aug 10, 10 01:32:05 pm Message-ID: > > On Mon, 9 Aug 2010, Gene Buckle wrote: > > Well frankly, if I had any idea that you'd go Old Man McClusky on me while > > waving your cane in my face and raving about these damn kids, I just may > > have. Unfortunately I constantly forget that you like to party like it's > > 1979. > > HELL, YES!! You damn kids today have no clue how to party. If a 'party' is what I think it is, I'' jsut stick to fixing my classic computers ;-) > Herpes was the worst incurable STD in those days. Oh no... back then 'STD' meant 'Subscriber Trunk Dialing' and nothing mroe :-) > Who is Old Man McClusky? Maybe he'd like to come along. You know you've been hardware-hackign too long when all you can think of is the Quine McClusky minimalisation method... > > it should be added that I'm not terribly understanding of peoples' > > self-configured difficulty. You could easily build a machine that does Actually,, could I _easily_ build such a macnine? Given that I don't have one, or anything like it, I can't use CPLDs or FGPAs (the logic compilers require such a machine to run on, and the chips are not fully docuemtned so toy can't write your own for whatever machine you happen to have). Building a machine that runs a graphical browser using only stock chips doesnt sound totally tivial/. > > all these new-fangled and modern webby things and yet you grump at ME > > because you have no way to copy & paste a url into any kind of browser. > > That is s'posedly comparably easy to reading "it's a documentary about > Adventure"? Even thoguh I am pretty fast with a soldering iron, Isuspect I could read that centence rather quicker htan I could solder in a 40 pin DIL chip... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 11 12:50:09 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 18:50:09 +0100 (BST) Subject: GET LAMP is here In-Reply-To: from "Rich Alderson" at Aug 10, 10 04:05:09 pm Message-ID: > >> You could easily build a machine that does all these=20 > > > I assume you also can't understand why people spend many hours making a=20 > > mechanical closk from scratch when a $10 quartz clock is much more=20 > > accurate. Or why people learn to play a musical instrument rather than=20 > > just listening to a record/tape/CD. Or why people paint pictures when=20 > > there are plenty of cameras around. [...] > However, I took the comment you quoted to have an intrinsic "in addition" > rather than the intrinsic "instead" you saw. I am not sure we understnad each other... My reply was to the comment that the OP couldn't understand why I insisted on using a classic computer (text display, dialup connection, whatever). I was commenting that plenty of other people do things that in a sense make life difficult for them, but I assuem they have reasons for doing that ('I enjoy it' is a perfectly good reason, BTW). I have reasons for using my much-hacked IBM 5170, whcih I have mentioned here many times before. You don;t have to agree with them, sure. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 11 12:57:47 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 18:57:47 +0100 (BST) Subject: New acquisition... In-Reply-To: <4C624DD7.5040503@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at Aug 11, 10 00:14:31 am Message-ID: > > Tony Duell wrote: > > Nice machine. The QX10 is one of my favourite desktop CP/M machines. The > > video system is based round a 7220, the serial port (IIRC) uses a 7201. > > > Using a uPD7201 for the serial port is a strike against it. High speed It depends on what you wnat to use that serial portr for. IIRC the s7201 has various synchronous modes that can be very useful > modems that transport asynchronous data over a synchronous modulation, > such as V.22, V.22bis, V.32, etc., have to use V.14 procedures to handle > cases where the transmitting device is overspeed relative to the > modulation, or the transmitting modem is overspeed relative to the > receiving side. In the former case, up to one out of ten stop bits get > dropped over the modulation, and reinserted on the receiving side. When > that happens, or in the case that the transmitting system's modulation > is faster than the receiving side (due to crystal tolerances, etc.), the > receiving side is allowed to shave off a portion of each stop bit on the > serial interface. Right,,, Now that I did not know. However, I would not think a QX10 was a natural machine to connect such a modem to, -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 11 14:08:40 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 20:08:40 +0100 (BST) Subject: GET LAMP is here In-Reply-To: from "Ian King" at Aug 11, 10 09:54:38 am Message-ID: > > > Of course it's bloat - but it is a machine that one can easily get And I thought the terminal in bits on my bench at the meoment was over-comples, what with a Z80A, 40K ROM, 24 16K*1 DRAMs, and around 150 TTL parts, but anyway... > Of course, shipping for, say a hundred VT520s is significantly higher than = > for those modern replacements - even when you add in the (now LCD) screen. = Which reminds me... Somewhere I have a VT100 clone -- a clone right down the setup screens -- using an LCD display. It's fairly old (simple mono LCD), I bought it about 10 years ago and it wasnt' new then. I must dig it out > Oh that's right, you can just go down to Best Buy (which rarely is) to buy= > the screens.... =20 > > That's not to say I don't have a personal preference for the originals - I = > have mostly VT420s at home, and we're refurbishing a bunch of VT100s and VT= > 52s here at work. -- Ian=20 I wish I had a job where poeple refurbished classic terminals... -tony From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Aug 11 14:34:46 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 12:34:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: GET LAMP was here In-Reply-To: References: <20100810125109.M61892@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20100811121824.D1024@shell.lmi.net> > > > Unfortunately I constantly forget that you like to party like it's > > > 1979. > > HELL, YES!! ? ? You damn kids today have no clue how to party. > > Herpes was the worst incurable STD in those days. > > I will gladly find and give John Titor a 5100 (with APL AND BASIC) > > if he will just drop me off in 1979. ?I'll throw in a 360 > > for a one-way to the 1960s. ?That's for one-way. On Wed, 11 Aug 2010, Liam Proven wrote: > Ooooh oooh ooh! Can I come? Please? When the '60s ended, I was nearly > 3. I missed all the fun. Sure! If Titor can take us, we can all go. You also missed out on most of the "Cold War" - Kruschev being refused access to Disneyland, the Cuban missile crisis, fallout shelters, the constant fear of total annhilation, and the resulting "cutting loose" of the younger generation. > > For round-trip, all he gets is Valtrep. > [Mirth] Oh, come on. We can give him a PDP/11 running OS/2, at least! I don't wanna have to come right back! I wanna take 50 years to get back here from 1960! 'course even 1979 would be fun, to relive Apple, TRS80, and PET. Z80, 8080, 6502. Source and Compuserve. Hard sector V Soft Sector! Much better religious battles than the wimpy WINDOZE V LINUX squabbles that we have today. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From ragooman at gmail.com Wed Aug 11 14:45:41 2010 From: ragooman at gmail.com (Dan Roganti) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 15:45:41 -0400 Subject: GET LAMP is here In-Reply-To: References: <20100810125109.M61892@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Wed, Aug 11, 2010 at 1:44 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > > You know you've been hardware-hackign too long when all you can think of is > the Quine McClusky minimalisation method... > and whether P?NP :) =Dan -- --http://www.vintagecomputer.net/ragooman/ From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Aug 11 14:46:53 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 15:46:53 -0400 Subject: an old program, was Re: GET LAMP was here In-Reply-To: <20100811121824.D1024@shell.lmi.net> References: <20100810125109.M61892@shell.lmi.net> <20100811121824.D1024@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4C62FE2D.8010805@neurotica.com> On 8/11/10 3:34 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > 'course even 1979 would be fun, to relive Apple, TRS80, and PET. Z80, > 8080, 6502. Source and Compuserve. Hard sector V Soft Sector! Much > better religious battles than the wimpy WINDOZE V LINUX squabbles that > we have today. And someone apparently assumed I was talking about Linux! ;) Does anyone here remember a program called "The Last One" that was advertised in full-page ads in BYTE? I believe it was a code generator of some sort. I'll go digging through magazines to see if I can find it, but it popped into my head when I read the paragraph above. Does anyone know anything about it? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Wed Aug 11 14:59:35 2010 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 21:59:35 +0200 Subject: SparcBook Tadpole In-Reply-To: <4C62D395.2030104@neurotica.com> References: <992230.97947.qm@web52604.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <4C60BEAC.5080609@neurotica.com> <4C62D395.2030104@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20100811215935.788e4ce4.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Wed, 11 Aug 2010 12:45:09 -0400 Dave McGuire wrote: > > I tried doing a search on google for anyone hacking these chips > > to replace the battery but all I got were chip sales. > I've seen pages documenting this, but that was years ago. I do this hack this way: File down the top of the chip at the pin 12 / 13 end until you get to the top of the old battery. The top of the battery is the + contact. Now carefully carve out the wire that goes from the top down into the resin. A dremel like tool with a small milling head will do best. When you dug out enough of the + wire from the old battery to solder somthing to it stop. Now cut the + wire loose at the very top of the chip, immediately at the old battery. Solder one end of a wire to the wire that goes down into the chip and the other end to the new battery. Solder an other wire to pin 12 of the chip as this is GND and the other end to - pole of the new battery. I remember one geek meeting several years back where I did this surgery to the NVRAMS of several Suns from my friends... Those where happy fun days. :-) -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From blkline at attglobal.net Wed Aug 11 15:17:45 2010 From: blkline at attglobal.net (Barry L. Kline) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 16:17:45 -0400 Subject: GET LAMP is here In-Reply-To: References: <20100810125109.M61892@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4C630569.4010700@attglobal.net> Dan Roganti wrote: > and whether P?NP :) Funny you should mention that. I just got this link today: http://www.infoworld.com/t/code-analysis/computer-science-breakthrough-the-end-p-np-583?source=IFWNLE_nlt_blogs_2010-08-11 In case the URL gets munged, here's the short version: http://tinyurl.com/2cz4bet Barry From ragooman at gmail.com Wed Aug 11 15:58:04 2010 From: ragooman at gmail.com (Dan Roganti) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 16:58:04 -0400 Subject: GET LAMP is here In-Reply-To: <4C630569.4010700@attglobal.net> References: <20100810125109.M61892@shell.lmi.net> <4C630569.4010700@attglobal.net> Message-ID: On Wed, Aug 11, 2010 at 4:17 PM, Barry L. Kline wrote: > Dan Roganti wrote: > > > and whether P?NP :) > > > Funny you should mention that. I just got this link today: > > > http://www.infoworld.com/t/code-analysis/computer-science-breakthrough-the-end-p-np-583?source=IFWNLE_nlt_blogs_2010-08-11 > > In case the URL gets munged, here's the short version: > > http://tinyurl.com/2cz4bet > > yes, I saw that too. I just had to bring it up :) But it hasn't been peer-reviewed yet. =Dan -- --http://www.vintagecomputer.net/ragooman/ From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Aug 11 15:59:02 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 13:59:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: GET LAMP is here In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20100811134041.A1024@shell.lmi.net> > > > Well frankly, if I had any idea that you'd go Old Man McClusky on me while > > > waving your cane in my face and raving about these damn kids, I just may > > > have. Unfortunately I constantly forget that you like to party like it's > > > 1979. > > HELL, YES!! You damn kids today have no clue how to party. On Wed, 11 Aug 2010, Tony Duell wrote: > If a 'party' is what I think it is, I'' jsut stick to fixing my classic > computers ;-) In those days, parties were much more varied than they are now. The first time that I played Adventure (see! we don't know how to stay off-topic!), the first time that I saw an 8080 or Z80, my first hands-on with S100, flight simulator (pre-release?) on an Apple, were all at parties in the San Francisco area in the mid to late 1970s. > > Herpes was the worst incurable STD in those days. > Oh no... back then 'STD' meant 'Subscriber Trunk Dialing' and nothing > mroe :-) There were many 'STD' abreviations. Such as "standard", "SeT Direction", "State Transition Diagram". But sexually transmitted diseases were not, and didn't need to be, a major worry in those days. > > Who is Old Man McClusky? Maybe he'd like to come along. > You know you've been hardware-hackign too long when all you can think of is > the Quine McClusky minimalisation method... Then he probably WOULD like to come along. > Building a machine that runs a graphical browser using only stock chips > doesnt sound totally tivial/. Surely a graphical browser, (if NOT done in a High Level Language) could be written to run on a 5150 with CGA. > Even thoguh I am pretty fast with a soldering iron, Isuspect I could > read that centence rather quicker htan I could solder in a 40 pin DIL chip... I'm not as good with soldering. I could read that sentence in less time than a single pin of the 40 pin DIP. But, I could finish soldering the 40 pin socket (marginal soldering skills) before this dial-up would be displaying the page. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Aug 11 16:11:24 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 14:11:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: an old program, was Re: GET LAMP was here In-Reply-To: <4C62FE2D.8010805@neurotica.com> References: <20100810125109.M61892@shell.lmi.net> <20100811121824.D1024@shell.lmi.net> <4C62FE2D.8010805@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20100811140025.V1024@shell.lmi.net> > > 'course even 1979 would be fun, to relive Apple, TRS80, and PET. Z80, > > 8080, 6502. Source and Compuserve. Hard sector V Soft Sector! Much > > better religious battles than the wimpy WINDOZE V LINUX squabbles that > > we have today. On Wed, 11 Aug 2010, Dave McGuire wrote: > And someone apparently assumed I was talking about Linux! ;) Not really. I just oversimplified to avoid offending some of the bigots :-) > Does anyone here remember a program called "The Last One" that was > advertised in full-page ads in BYTE? I believe it was a code generator > of some sort. I'll go digging through magazines to see if I can find > it, but it popped into my head when I read the paragraph above. Does > anyone know anything about it? I don't know anything about it other than the thoroughly obnoxious hype when it was introduced at about the fifth or sixth West Coast Compuer Faire. My comment then was essentially, "They won't keep the promise in their name, there will still be more of those. Too many people think that what everybody else wants is just a trivial variant of what they want, and think that they can handle everybody's needs by just making their program a little more general. Most of them seem to be very limited database programs, where a resulting "program" is just obfuscated code for your query or report request. Will RPG never go away?" Yeah, I was grumpy before I got old; or maybe I've always been old. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From dm561 at torfree.net Wed Aug 11 17:35:33 2010 From: dm561 at torfree.net (MikeS) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 17:35:33 -0500 Subject: GET LAMP is here References: Message-ID: <11EED621D12E4C02BCA581B1A706B6F5@vl420mt> Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 14:35:44 -0400 From: Dave McGuire Subject: Re: GET LAMP is here On 8/11/10 3:12 PM, MikeS wrote: > Give it up. No point in arguing with folks who have a need to tell us at > every opportunity that they're smarter, better, whatever, than all those > Windows lusers out there; just smile tolerantly and ignore them. Oh, never once have I asserted that. Again the fanboys choose to twist my words in an effort to marginalize any statement disparaging Windows. This isn't about ME, it's about Microsoft fanboys who pipe up and deny the existence of the troubles that damn near everyone has with that product line. This doesn't make ME any better, either in reality or in my own mind. So, envision yourself as someone who has personally cared very much for cars and car technology all your life, has seen such fads come and go, and has a fiscal and professional responsibility to use and sell what works. Now, if you knew of a group of near-religious devotees to a particular brand of car that was widely known to regularly catch fire while driving down the street in nearly all situations, so blind in their devotion that they loudly assert that these failures don't exist when the whole world sees them, how would you react? I poke fun at the Microsoft-can-do-no-wrong crowd (which I was doing at the start of this thread, because Will Donzelli amusingly suggested that UNIX guys don't get laid) because they're very entertaining when they keep pointing at the blue sky screaming that it's red, over and over and over again, ad infinitum, ad nausem. So, no, this is not about me, and I'm sorry, I'm not going to allow you to label it as such. I'm trying to explain myself here, not justify my position...I have no need to do the latter, while doing the former seems necessary when people try to dismiss an argument by restating it incorrectly. In the interest of on-topicness (topicicity?) I will drop this thread if you guys will. I like and respect most everyone here, and I don't really enjoy pooping in my own yard. I regret that this has gone this far, but I could not let certain statements stand. -Dave ------------ >Again the fanboys choose to twist my words in an effort to marginalize any >statement disparaging Windows. You really are tooooo funny... You talk about "fanboys" (presumably a derogatory term that includes Richard and me) twisting your words? I think Richard (and I) just said that we're getting a little tired of your endless "Windows is crap" remarks; I didn't hear anyone say that Microsoft can do no wrong, that there aren't any problems with the product line (as there are with pretty well any software), or even that the sky is blue (or red). To use your analogy, if for whatever reason I owned one of those cars you mentioned and had perhaps even made the necessary modifications to prevent it from catching fire, I'd also get pretty tired of your telling me what a PoS it is every time you saw me driving it. What I do read over and over again, ad infinitum, ad nauseam, are your puerile criticisms of MS and dismissive insults of anyone who suggests that their products are perhaps not the complete and total PoS that you keep insisting, not to mention your recurring mention of those 'converts' whom you've shown the true and only way to the light... ;-) Now that *does* sound like a fanboy... >This isn't about ME... Yeah, actually it is, at least it's about these tiresome posts and insults of yours. But it's all in fun, right? mike From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Aug 11 16:43:54 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 17:43:54 -0400 Subject: GET LAMP is here In-Reply-To: <11EED621D12E4C02BCA581B1A706B6F5@vl420mt> References: <11EED621D12E4C02BCA581B1A706B6F5@vl420mt> Message-ID: <4C63199A.6020509@neurotica.com> On 8/11/10 6:35 PM, MikeS wrote: > To use your analogy, if for whatever reason I owned one of those cars you > mentioned and had perhaps even made the necessary modifications to prevent > it from catching fire, I'd also get pretty tired of your telling me what a > PoS it is every time you saw me driving it. Ok, your point is well taken. I will try to pipe down on the subject. Though I'd love to know of the necessary modifications required to keep this particular car from catching fire, and I promise to do my best to stay away from the subject of why those modifications are needed in the first place. If you've managed to fix Windows such that it behaves well and is reliable, a whole lot of people must be busting down your door to hire you. If you can indeed fix it, then hell, *I* might even run it. > What I do read over and over again, ad infinitum, ad nauseam, are your > puerile criticisms of MS and dismissive insults of anyone who suggests that > their products are perhaps not the complete and total PoS that you keep > insisting, So you think I'm making it up? Why on earth would I do that? > not to mention your recurring mention of those 'converts' whom > you've shown the true and only way to the light... ;-) Quite a few other ways, actually. I don't push people toward any particular platform. The closest I get to that is listening to requirements and suggesting a target platform when I'm asked. > Now that *does* sound like a fanboy... Of what, exactly? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From jfoust at threedee.com Wed Aug 11 17:01:22 2010 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 17:01:22 -0500 Subject: GET LAMP is here In-Reply-To: <4C63199A.6020509@neurotica.com> References: <11EED621D12E4C02BCA581B1A706B6F5@vl420mt> <4C63199A.6020509@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <201008112202.o7BM1x9B038667@billY.EZWIND.NET> At 04:43 PM 8/11/2010, Dave McGuire wrote: >> Now that *does* sound like a fanboy... > > Of what, exactly? You're clearly just one of those fans of reliable systems that are easier to maintain than others in the market. If you were a real geek, you'd want to devote your frigging' mental life to memorizing the arcane details of systems and networks that are managed dramatically differently every three years. Me? I wish I could erase this recurring fantasy of tying Bill Gates to a chair, removing his glasses, and requiring him to enter license keys over and over, having the license key be rejected, then calling activation support, then touch-tone entering two different longer keys... - John From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Aug 11 17:02:53 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 15:02:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: GET LAMP is here In-Reply-To: <11EED621D12E4C02BCA581B1A706B6F5@vl420mt> References: <11EED621D12E4C02BCA581B1A706B6F5@vl420mt> Message-ID: <20100811145039.G1024@shell.lmi.net> > they keep pointing at the blue sky screaming that it's red, over and > over and over again, ad infinitum, ad nausem. Don't you mean "blue SCREEN"? Sorry, can't resist something like that. My current needs are simple, and I can get XP to do them quite adequately. Which is good, because I spend a lot of time on machines owned by the college, and I am not authorized to make any of the changes that I would like. EVERY OS, including WINDOZE does some things well, and some things poorly. When MICROS~1 made design choices that favored "multimedia" and dancing kangaroos over security, they were catering to a specific audience, and those choices DO seem to be what the bulk of the non-computer literate general public want. There have been times when I have wanted to do some things for which WINDOZE is not well suited. And sometimes it is just fun to play with other stuff. Several of my home machines are on MS-DOS 6.2x. I would like to put a larger drive into my OQO, and set up multiple OS's on it, with a boot menu for some form of Linux, OSX, and XP. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From alexeyt at freeshell.org Wed Aug 11 17:29:26 2010 From: alexeyt at freeshell.org (Alexey Toptygin) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 22:29:26 +0000 (UTC) Subject: GET LAMP is here In-Reply-To: <20100811134041.A1024@shell.lmi.net> References: <20100811134041.A1024@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 11 Aug 2010, Fred Cisin wrote: >> Building a machine that runs a graphical browser using only stock chips >> doesnt sound totally tivial/. > > Surely a graphical browser, (if NOT done in a High Level Language) could > be written to run on a 5150 with CGA. I don't know about that... Google is not what I'd call a graphics-intensive site, but a single page of results is 64k html, and about as much again in images. You can eat up 640k real fast that way, and that doesn't include any of the code you need for a TCP/IP stack, stub DNS resolver, parsing HTML (and let's not forget the memory cost of intermediate representations, unless you want to pay for a full reparse every time there's an exposure event) applying CSS, layout, rendering any number of image formats, input handling, forms, cookies... Let's not even think about supporting ECMA script, without which you won't be able to use any web 2.0 sites, and I shudder to think of what you'd have to do to try to run flash on an on-topic machine. I've got 2 text-mostly pages open ATM, and Firefox has an RSS of 100M; even if that's 90% wasted (which I very much doubt) then you still need 10M to hold the useful bits (not counting the filesystem and IP stack bits that live in the kernel and aren't counted against Firefox's RSS). Alexey From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Aug 11 17:34:48 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 15:34:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: GET LAMP is here In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20100811153204.L1024@shell.lmi.net> > Hmm, let's see... "A bigot is a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted > to his or her own opinions and prejudices." A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject. - Winston Churchill . . . and even fewer people will change the SUBJECT: line From dkelvey at hotmail.com Wed Aug 11 17:38:30 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 15:38:30 -0700 Subject: SparcBook Tadpole In-Reply-To: References: <992230.97947.qm@web52604.mail.re2.yahoo.com>, , , , <4C60BEAC.5080609@neurotica.com>, , <08fa01cb3967$3f6269a0$9201a8c0@portajara>, Message-ID: > From: IanK at vulcan.com > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Alexandre Souza - Listas > > Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 2010 7:51 AM > > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: SparcBook Tadpole > > > > > I tried doing a search on google for anyone hacking these chips > > >to replace the battery but all I got were chip sales. > > > > Easy for us :) > > > > The chip is a plastic box. In this box there is a common chip, and > > some > > batteries on top. Cut the box with a plier and you'll see the > > batteries, it > > is that simple. Change the batteries, and be happy :) > > > > I recently replaced one of those parts in my Sparcstation Voyager. The part from DigiKey was only about USD $20, which I figured was a better deal than my time spent grinding and cutting and splicing.... -- Ian Hi My problem is that I don't know if I can restore the information in it. The early Sparcbooks didn't have openboot. I'm a little worried about such bringup. There is a fellow on ebay that has these and claims that the batteries are unused( about $20 plus tax and shipping ). I have some empty space in the machine. I'd rather use that for a battery bracket with a standard button cell. If I had two brackets with small resistors, I could even change batteries on the fly. If the case can be poped off, that would be great. If not, I may revert to the dremel. I can put it in an external socket and power it from a supply to keep it alive while operating. I've written down the hostname and ethernet address so it is minimum risk. The web page says if the clock doesn't work, replace the chip. I'm not sure if that is whats wrong. I've not tried to reset the clock yet to see if it continues to run. I do know that the clock uses more power than the RAM and may just be the straw that breaks the NVRAMs back. Using an old battery device from digikey is just prolonging the eventual death. If it isn't a current manufacture it is already part dead when you get it. Dwight From IanK at vulcan.com Wed Aug 11 17:43:33 2010 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 15:43:33 -0700 Subject: SparcBook Tadpole In-Reply-To: References: <992230.97947.qm@web52604.mail.re2.yahoo.com>, , , , <4C60BEAC.5080609@neurotica.com>, , <08fa01cb3967$3f6269a0$9201a8c0@portajara>, Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of dwight elvey > Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 2010 3:39 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: RE: SparcBook Tadpole > > > > > > > From: IanK at vulcan.com > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > > > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Alexandre Souza - Listas > > > Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 2010 7:51 AM > > > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > > Subject: Re: SparcBook Tadpole > > > > > > > I tried doing a search on google for anyone hacking these chips > > > >to replace the battery but all I got were chip sales. > > > > > > Easy for us :) > > > > > > The chip is a plastic box. In this box there is a common chip, and > > > some > > > batteries on top. Cut the box with a plier and you'll see the > > > batteries, it > > > is that simple. Change the batteries, and be happy :) > > > > > > > I recently replaced one of those parts in my Sparcstation Voyager. > The part from DigiKey was only about USD $20, which I figured was a > better deal than my time spent grinding and cutting and splicing.... -- > Ian > > Hi > My problem is that I don't know if I can restore the information in > it. > The early Sparcbooks didn't have openboot. I'm a little worried > about such bringup. There is a fellow on ebay that has these and claims > that the batteries are unused( about $20 plus tax and shipping ). > I have some empty space in the machine. I'd rather use that for > a battery bracket with a standard button cell. > If I had two brackets with small resistors, I could even change > batteries > on the fly. > If the case can be poped off, that would be great. If not, I may > revert > to the dremel. I can put it in an external socket and power it from > a supply to keep it alive while operating. > I've written down the hostname and ethernet address so it is minimum > risk. > The web page says if the clock doesn't work, replace the chip. I'm > not sure if that is whats wrong. I've not tried to reset the clock yet > to see if it continues to run. I do know that the clock uses more > power than the RAM and may just be the straw that breaks the > NVRAMs back. > Using an old battery device from digikey is just prolonging the > eventual death. If it isn't a current manufacture it is already part > dead > when you get it. > Dwight > But that describes everything we talk about here that uses magtape, disk packs, 7400-series TTL, ASICs, (god help us) ECL, et tedious cetera. Yes, in another few years my Voyager will have a dead NVRAM again and I may or may not be able to get another chip. I might not even be able to get a new battery: that's a problem with my Minolta SRT series SLRs, where the excellent TTL metering doesn't work anymore because it was designed to be powered by mercury cells that I can't buy anymore. If you want an appliance, yes, it's important to not let yourself fall too far behind the curve. But if you're a manly man (or a womanly woman) and seek great adventure and even greater glory (and perhaps even an advantage with members of the gender of your choice), you'll geek-up and do what it takes to keep your Olde Beaste running. BTW, I suspect the reason they said, "If the clock doesn't work, change the chip" is just because that's the simplest symptom to identify. And there's lots of info around about how to bring up a new NVRAM. -- Ian From bdamer at digitalspace.com Mon Aug 9 13:17:40 2010 From: bdamer at digitalspace.com (Bruce Damer) Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2010 11:17:40 -0700 Subject: Anyone got a GRiDlite 1040, Sharp MZ-200? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201008091817.o79IHp0k096329@billY.EZWIND.NET> Anyone here have a GRiDlite 1040 I could acquire or borrow for a project here at the Digibarn? Also anyone got documents for a Sharp laptop (MZ-200) which I cannot find in my mountain of documentation. Bruce From csquared3 at tx.rr.com Mon Aug 9 14:42:02 2010 From: csquared3 at tx.rr.com (Charlie Carothers) Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2010 14:42:02 -0500 Subject: OT - sort of Message-ID: <4C605A0A.3040807@tx.rr.com> Kind folks, I'm pretty sure that some here restore and use vintage computers at least in part in order to be able to play vintage computer games, which is the only thing that makes this post on topic at all. After a bit of research on the web, I find that I'm at least 5 or 6 years behind the times based on some forum discussions of something I just became aware of just yesterday! What triggered all this was that our daughter showed up at the house with this little game controller which she says was bought at WalMart for about USD $20.00. It says "namco" on the front, "PLUG it in & PLAY TV GAMES" on the back. Says 6VDC on the back too, so probably 4 AA batteries. It came with batteries, and I haven't opened it up to explore the insides at all - yet. On the bottom next to the list of games are copyright dates from 1960 to 1983, the best I can tell. There is also a copyright notice on the bottom dated 2004 for JAKKS Pacific, Inc. and a reference to www.jakkstvgames.com. This little gadget has a joystick, a few pushbutton switches, and composite video and a sound output. It allows one to play vintage Ms. Pac-Man, Galaga, Pole Position, Mappy, and Xavious by connecting it to a standard TV's video and audio inputs. I mention this here because I just thought it was really cool to be able to play these vintage games, and some might be in the same uninformed group with me. :-) FWIW, my daughter says there are a number of other similar units with different games, and the web seems to confirm this. Wanting to see if the web site is WOT approved, I googled jakkstvgames.com and it seems to only be referred to by other web sites. I finally got brave and typed it in to the Firefox URL entry and was rewarded with "403 Forbidden" and "You don't have permission to access / on this server." Sounds pretty scary to me. BTW, I have absolutely no connection with this company - whatever it is - Jakks Pacific? It says it is made in China, of course. The thing is plastic, but seems to be remarkably well made for something that only costs 20 bucks. Of course the possibility of hacking it for other purposes never crossed my mind. ;-) Later, Charlie C. From snhirsch at gmail.com Mon Aug 9 16:13:15 2010 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2010 17:13:15 -0400 (EDT) Subject: does anyone know what this is (C64 Snapshot cartridge) In-Reply-To: <347113.16526.qm@web65506.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> References: <347113.16526.qm@web65506.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 8 Aug 2010, Chris M wrote: > http://cgi.ebay.com/Snapshot-64-Cartridge-Commodore-64-/170523686285?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0 > > the seller is too brain dead to describe what it is, despite stating that it's tested and working. > > I seem to have a vague recollection of what this is, but actually I'm > not totally sure. I think that's for cracking copy-protected games. -- From jws at jwsss.com Tue Aug 10 01:37:42 2010 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2010 23:37:42 -0700 Subject: GET LAMP is here In-Reply-To: <4C6085AD.18681.316E52D@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <20100809163517.M21499@shell.lmi.net>, <4C60E2D8.4040301@jetnet.ab.ca> <4C6085AD.18681.316E52D@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4C60F3B6.3060507@jwsss.com> I played it for two years on a 300 or 1200 baud dialup from california to Louisiana on a Silent 700. I come across pages of adventure in boxes from time to time. It was very playable, and I don't know what one would need. Every system I ever had as fast a response to my inputs as I required from the above to the CPM ones on glass, and later PC versions. I still like the recollection of playing it on the Silent 700's personally, but that is just because of having the experience of doing it that way. I know of some others (statute of limitations are expired) that played from Puerto Rico by dialing from a hotel phone (acoustic coupler) to Miami, into Tymnet. connected to Multics in Phoenix to run the Colossal Cave adventure there. I think at one time that system had maybe 1000 copies running at once as well via various networks from around the world. I'll leave you to guess the company, but the sources were ported by the authors in Massachusetts to Multics after the PDP10 version. Still had the session control logic in, but in Multics it could be easily circumvented and you could play anytime. And network time didn't get cheap no matter what time you logged in. (Silent 700 is excuse for being on topic here :-) Jim On 8/9/2010 10:48 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 9 Aug 2010 at 23:25, Ben wrote: > > >> Well I got "THE LAMP". Now to find the cave... and buy the proper 9 >> pin null modem cable if they still make them. I can't keep stealing >> from the PC here. I am just finding playing ADVENTURE on the PDP-8 >> (SBC6120) with a IDE drive just playable for a text game. Did most of >> the people play ADVENTURE on a classic machine or wait for PC version >> or clone of the game. I remember playing a similar game on the COCO II >> but I think it was from Cassette rather than mini-floppy. >> > You mean other than playing it on big iron? Heck, pretty early on, > there was a CP/M version of it--I've got it here on a floppy with > MP/M on it (a good multi-terminal demo). > > Wonder if Chess 3.0 will run on a PDP-8? > > --Chuck > > > From jonas at otter.se Tue Aug 10 03:38:00 2010 From: jonas at otter.se (Jonas Otter) Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2010 08:38:00 +0000 Subject: Pronouncing acronyms (was Re: DEC acronyms) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Concerning dismantling lenses in order to clean helicoids, diaphragm blades etc. you might be interested in Chuck Cole's opinions as expressed in the ManualMinoltaFree Yahoo group. Somehow I imagine you might disagree with him, or else you might explain your method of dealing with the issues he feels so strongly about... /Jonas On Sun, 8 Aug 2010 18:54:37 +0100 (BST), ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > >Fortuately all that goers wrong with the lenses for my cameras is that >the grease goes rock-hard in the focussing helical threads (a pain to >clean out, but possible), and occasionally oil migrates onto the >diaphagm blades and causes them to stick (ditto). No electronics to go >wrong, of course... > >-tony > From jws at jwsss.com Tue Aug 10 17:15:29 2010 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2010 15:15:29 -0700 Subject: GET LAMP is here (3278's) In-Reply-To: References: <022a01cb389c$6fa0e4a0$9201a8c0@portajara> <201008101536.o7AFaHjd020910@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <4C61CF81.7000709@jwsss.com> My last scrounge on 3278's was when I heard some crashing sounds behind the Irvine, Ca Sam's club one saturday. A couple of guys were lobbing 3278's into an empty dumpster. I took the ones which had not been lobbed, along with 5 that had, and all of them worked. There were dents on the cases of the ones from the dumpster, but clear displays. Truely boat anchors, but well built boat anchors. On 8/10/2010 8:39 AM, William Donzelli wrote: >> Up until a few years ago Kaiser Permanente was still using 3270 terminals. >> > Real 3278s? They are getting very thin on the ground. > > -- > Will > > > From snhirsch at gmail.com Wed Aug 11 06:52:03 2010 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 07:52:03 -0400 (EDT) Subject: EPROM programming (27c160's) In-Reply-To: <992230.97947.qm@web52604.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <992230.97947.qm@web52604.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 9 Aug 2010, Mr Ian Primus wrote: > Failing that, does anyone have a suggestion of an EPROM programmer that > I can buy that will program 27c160's. Preferably something that can be > operated from DOS over a parallel or serial port, or better yet, an ISA > card. I purchased an Andromeda Research AR-32A programming system. Best money I ever spent! The base unit covers an enormous number of EPROMs and they have adapters for just about anything else imaginable. Best yet: They will sell you the bare boards for any of the adapters, provide a schematic and let you have at it. Their tech support is superlative. Very knowledgable folks. And, yes, the software runs as a DOS application :-). Steve -- From jws at jwsss.com Wed Aug 11 16:26:43 2010 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 14:26:43 -0700 Subject: SparcBook Tadpole In-Reply-To: References: <992230.97947.qm@web52604.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <4C62D395.2030104@neurotica.com> <201008111257.26329.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <4C631593.6080408@jwsss.com> On 8/11/2010 10:05 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 8/11/10, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > >> First google result for "Sun NVRAM battery replacement": >> >> http://www.bhargavaz.com/nvram/nvram.html >> > Ooh... I've seen that page before, and that technique looks dangerous > (the soldering to the Li battery part). > > The places I've been who supply large numbers of replacement batteries all have a fancy welding rig which they can use to stick a set of bands on any battery, including lithium, by welding. Then solder to that. It may not be as pretty as some of the soldered approaches, but i agree with you, I'm not going to apply solder heat to a lithium battery. It's all about heat not temperature to make them explode. If you're lucky they will have them as Ethan mentions below already in stock. In my case I was going to fix a rechargable razor, and they even said they would do that for free, make up the pack and put it in the unit, they do those all the time. Doubt they get many sparcbooks though, I'd probably do that myself. > I've replaced batteries on "Timekeepers" before, but I either use the > batteries that have solder tabs pre-welded onto them, or use a snap-in > battery carrier and solder the leads from that to the chip. > > -ethan > > > From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Wed Aug 11 18:29:53 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2010 00:29:53 +0100 Subject: EPROM programming (27c160's) In-Reply-To: References: <992230.97947.qm@web52604.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4C633271.3090202@philpem.me.uk> On 11/08/10 12:52, Steven Hirsch wrote: > I purchased an Andromeda Research AR-32A programming system. Best money > I ever spent! The base unit covers an enormous number of EPROMs and they > have adapters for just about anything else imaginable. Best yet: They > will sell you the bare boards for any of the adapters, provide a > schematic and let you have at it. > > Their tech support is superlative. Very knowledgable folks. > > And, yes, the software runs as a DOS application :-). I'm still waiting for an EPROM programmer with Linux software available. I'm actually tempted to do a GAL/fuse-PROM programmer seeing as my GALBlast won't work worth a damn on this machine :( -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Wed Aug 11 18:37:59 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2010 00:37:59 +0100 Subject: SparcBook Tadpole In-Reply-To: <09e801cb397a$b1a84760$9201a8c0@portajara> References: <992230.97947.qm@web52604.mail.re2.yahoo.com><4C62D395.2030104@neurotica.com><201008111257.26329.pat@computer-refuge.org> <09e801cb397a$b1a84760$9201a8c0@portajara> Message-ID: <4C633457.8030706@philpem.me.uk> On 11/08/10 18:18, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > I've done it hundreds of times, you just need to be fast and having a > good solder :P A bit of preparation helps too -- use fine wet/dry paper to sand off the top layer of metal, add a drop of solder, tin the wire, then add flux and solder both together. Of course I prefer doing the same thing, but with solder tags: cut off a piece of nickel shim, drill a small hole in it, buff, solder some wire to the tag, spot-weld the tag to the battery. I built a spot-welder to do this -- basically, it's a bank of capacitors and an SCR. See . -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From dm561 at torfree.net Wed Aug 11 19:38:05 2010 From: dm561 at torfree.net (MikeS) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 19:38:05 -0500 Subject: Bigots & Fanatics - final round References: Message-ID: Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 15:34:48 -0700 (PDT) From: Fred Cisin Subject: Re: GET LAMP is here >> Hmm, let's see... "A bigot is a person obstinately or intolerantly >> devoted >> to his or her own opinions and prejudices." >A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject. - Winston Churchill >. . . and even fewer people will change the SUBJECT: line ------------ Guilty as charged; sorry, I just really enjoy yanking Dave's 'M$ fanboy' chain... But all good things must end, alas... m From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Aug 11 19:10:19 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 20:10:19 -0400 Subject: Bigots & Fanatics - final round In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C633BEB.3030300@neurotica.com> On 8/11/10 8:38 PM, MikeS wrote: >>> Hmm, let's see... "A bigot is a person obstinately or intolerantly >>> devoted >>> to his or her own opinions and prejudices." > >> A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject. > - Winston Churchill > >> . . . and even fewer people will change the SUBJECT: line > ------------ > Guilty as charged; sorry, I just really enjoy yanking Dave's 'M$ fanboy' > chain... > > But all good things must end, alas... When I die, I'm gonna haunt you. ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Wed Aug 11 19:23:37 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 21:23:37 -0300 Subject: GET LAMP is here References: <20100811134041.A1024@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <00c601cb39b4$e6f47cb0$0600000a@portajara> >> Surely a graphical browser, (if NOT done in a High Level Language) could >> be written to run on a 5150 with CGA. There is a HTML browser that runs on MSX computers (!!!) called FUDEBROWSER, look for it and his creator (Ricardo Bittencourt) From cclist at sydex.com Wed Aug 11 19:28:13 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 17:28:13 -0700 Subject: GET LAMP is here In-Reply-To: <4C60F3B6.3060507@jwsss.com> References: , <4C6085AD.18681.316E52D@cclist.sydex.com>, <4C60F3B6.3060507@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <4C62DDAD.32402.272AA83@cclist.sydex.com> On 9 Aug 2010 at 23:37, jim s wrote: > I still like the recollection of playing it on the Silent 700's > personally, but that is just because of having the experience of doing > it that way. I recall getting the binary DECSystem10 tapes with the odd packing of 5 7-bit characters in a 36-bit word. I don't recall how the words were packed onto a 9 track tape, but it required some headscratching. I do recall writing a bunch of code to unpack and translate to 6-bit CDC display code. The DEC FORTRAN was close, but a lot of it was 36- bit dependent, so there was a certain amount of rework there. You didn't have to play it interactively. You could punch up all of your moves on cards and collect the printed output to see where you went wrong. But running it interactively on INTERCOM was a lot more fun, even if it was a resource hog. --Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Aug 11 19:36:20 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 20:36:20 -0400 Subject: SparcBook Tadpole In-Reply-To: References: <992230.97947.qm@web52604.mail.re2.yahoo.com>, , , , <4C60BEAC.5080609@neurotica.com>, , <08fa01cb3967$3f6269a0$9201a8c0@portajara>, Message-ID: <4C634204.5070500@neurotica.com> On 8/11/10 6:38 PM, dwight elvey wrote: > My problem is that I don't know if I can restore the information in it. > The early Sparcbooks didn't have openboot. Under SunOS, you can use the program called "eeprom" to dump out most of the important contents. As far as restoring it, I'm not sure about that, as I don't know what ROM-based code the very early SPARCbooks use. One way to do it might be to read it out using an EPROM programmer. My Data I/O supports the MK48T02, for example. > Using an old battery device from digikey is just prolonging the > eventual death. If it isn't a current manufacture it is already part dead > when you get it. Well yes, but it's not really all that bad. Those chips are shipped with their clocks stopped, and you need to set a bit in them (normally done by the OS at boot time, just in case) to "kick start" them. I believe the datasheets even call it the "kick start bit". The battery life is essentially the shelf life before the kick start bit is set for the first time. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Aug 11 19:58:58 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 17:58:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: GET LAMP is here In-Reply-To: <00c601cb39b4$e6f47cb0$0600000a@portajara> from Alexandre Souza - Listas at "Aug 11, 10 09:23:37 pm" Message-ID: <201008120058.o7C0wwLP020776@floodgap.com> > > > Surely a graphical browser, (if NOT done in a High Level Language) could > > > be written to run on a 5150 with CGA. > > There is a HTML browser that runs on MSX computers (!!!) called > FUDEBROWSER, look for it and his creator (Ricardo Bittencourt) The problem with old web browsers is that web content has grown up thinking everyone has the latest features. It started innocently with Netscape, got driven wild by IE, and is now being rammed into the stratosphere by Apple. While graceful degredation works (to a limited extent) with CSS -- i.e., as long as your browser supports *no* CSS and doesn't even try, the page will often come out in a useable if utilitarian manner -- it does not work with JavaScript and, by extension, DOM. An out of date web browser is worse than an intentionally limited browser like Lynx. For this reason, I have always advocated different, hard to abuse protocols that by their structure forcibly present some sort of functional skeleton to everyone, such as FTP or Gopher. The Web is terribly unfriendly to incomplete or old implementations. To function your browser must be completely featureless, buying itself a sympathy <noscript> where it can, or completely featured -- inbetween, everything breaks. It's like a bottomless uncanny valley. This is why old computers are regarded as "useless" -- because the way we exchange information is fundamentally screwed up. </off_my_lawn_moment> -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- I, for one, welcome our new C64 overlords. -- John Floren ------------------ From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Aug 11 20:04:57 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 18:04:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: GAMES IN A MUTHA#$*#^ING STICK! was Re: OT - sort of In-Reply-To: <4C605A0A.3040807@tx.rr.com> from Charlie Carothers at "Aug 9, 10 02:42:02 pm" Message-ID: <201008120104.o7C14v6Y017508@floodgap.com> > There is also a copyright notice on the bottom dated 2004 for > > This little gadget has a joystick, a few pushbutton switches, and > composite video and a sound output. It allows one to play vintage Ms. > Pac-Man, Galaga, Pole Position, Mappy, and Xavious by connecting it to a > standard TV's video and audio inputs. I mention this here because I > just thought it was really cool to be able to play these vintage games, > and some might be in the same uninformed group with me. :-) FWIW, my > daughter says there are a number of other similar units with different > games, and the web seems to confirm this. > > Wanting to see if the web site is WOT approved, I googled > jakkstvgames.com and it seems to only be referred to by other web sites. > I finally got brave and typed it in to the Firefox URL entry and was > rewarded with "403 Forbidden" and "You don't have permission to access / > on this server." Sounds pretty scary to me. > > BTW, I have absolutely no connection with this company - whatever it is > - Jakks Pacific? It says it is made in China, of course. The thing is > plastic, but seems to be remarkably well made for something that only > costs 20 bucks. Of course the possibility of hacking it for other > purposes never crossed my mind. ;-) Jakks Pacific was a legit company, but have since folded, near as I can tell. Most of those games-in-a-stick systems are based on a variant of the NES- on-a-chip. This is a very popular architecture for these sorts of toys; the games are not emulated, but rather reprogrammed. This turns up in that the games are close, but not quite like, the originals (see, for example, the Intellivision-in-a-controller). Curt's Flashback 2 and Jeri's C64 joystick are shining exceptions. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- I don't mind lying, but I hate inaccuracy. -- Samuel Butler ---------------- From RichA at vulcan.com Wed Aug 11 20:35:53 2010 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 18:35:53 -0700 Subject: PDP-10 vs. the world [was RE: GET LAMP is here] In-Reply-To: <4C62DDAD.32402.272AA83@cclist.sydex.com> References: <m1OiZIF-000J48C@p850ug1>, <4C6085AD.18681.316E52D@cclist.sydex.com>, <4C60F3B6.3060507@jwsss.com> <4C62DDAD.32402.272AA83@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <CC28F43ED4708D489ABCF68D06D7F556040A5CC9CA@505DENALI.corp.vnw.com> From: Chuck Guzis Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 2010 5:28 PM > I recall getting the binary DECSystem10 tapes with the odd packing of > 5 7-bit characters in a 36-bit word. I don't recall how the words > were packed onto a 9 track tape, but it required some headscratching. > I do recall writing a bunch of code to unpack and translate to 6-bit > CDC display code. The DEC FORTRAN was close, but a lot of it was 36- > bit dependent, so there was a certain amount of rework there. What's odd about it? ASCII is a 7-bit code, and if you have 36-bit words at 5 characters per word you have a maximal use of memory. (There was also a SIXBIT subset of ASCII which dropped the low 32 and high 32 characters and packed 6 to a word, but it wasn't used for general computing.) Depending on what mode tapes were written in, data got mapped into tape frame differently, but the most common mode, again based on economy of storage, went as follows: B0 B1 B2 B3 B4 B5 B6 B7 P B8 B9 B10 B11 B12 B13 B14 B15 P B16 B17 B18 B19 B20 B21 B22 B23 P B24 B25 B26 B27 B28 B29 B30 B31 P 0 0 0 0 B32 B33 B34 B35 P There was even support for editor line numbers: In the editor, line numbers are stored as ASCII strings of digits, with bit 35 turned on in the word. It is set to 0 in each word (5 chars) of text. *On tape*, the parity bit is forced to the wrong value in the 5th frame of a word that contains a line number! FIELDATA, now, *that's* odd. ;-) Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.PDPplanet.org/ http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Wed Aug 11 20:35:47 2010 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 21:35:47 -0400 Subject: Greetings fellow classiccmp'ers In-Reply-To: <4C5C011D.1070701@compsys.to> References: <20100801195510.C7FAD1E0229@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> <4C5C011D.1070701@compsys.to> Message-ID: <4C634FF3.4000002@compsys.to> >Jerome H. Fine wrote: > >Tim Shoppa wrote: > >> Having recently migrated all the stuff on *.trailing-edge.com to a 2010 >> era server (as opposed to the 2000 era server it was on - previous >> to that it had been on an Alpha with VMS, and previous to that it >> had been on a VAX with VMS) with >> fresh installs of all the software I was pleasantly >> surprised with the advances that have been made in apache and mailman >> configuration over time especially with respect to virtual domains etc. >> In particular the Ubuntu distribution was very straightforward to >> deal with... >> after I had adopted to the more modern configuration techniques. >> >> And spamassassin can be better integrated with postfix and mailman than >> in the past, to the point where the obvious spams never have to make it >> to a moderator's mailbox or turn up as a bogus request to the admin >> address. >> >> I'm not sure you need to stage through an intermediate platform, BTW. >> Just bite the bullet and go to the final platform. Unless you really >> enjoy installing and configuring everything twice. Although I was >> pleasantly surprised with the new Apache etc. configuration methods >> I still wouldn't want to do it twice. > > Can you let us know the new address of those files? > > In particular, I was impressed with the stuff at: > ftp://ftp.trailing-edge.com/pub > but it no longer responds. Are those files available elsewhere and I > am just looking in the wrong place? Hi Tim, I am not sure if you did something in response to my inquiry or the files were there all along. However, I am now able to access that site once again. THANK YOU!! Will you be adding any additional RT-11 files to the collection? Jerome Fine From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Wed Aug 11 19:48:23 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 21:48:23 -0300 Subject: SparcBook Tadpole References: <992230.97947.qm@web52604.mail.re2.yahoo.com>, , <SNT129-W35920212CCFBCE4CAABE45A3950@phx.gbl>, , <4C60BEAC.5080609@neurotica.com>, <SNT129-W61D71C38D99D6E6DB2BFB3A3960@phx.gbl>, <08fa01cb3967$3f6269a0$9201a8c0@portajara>, <FF6AB92D97A23A409701CDBF66F03FCD03DC3E6EA0@505fuji><SNT129-W11234506A4545FAB51FE17A3960@phx.gbl> <4C634204.5070500@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <012701cb39be$d5642270$0600000a@portajara> > Well yes, but it's not really all that bad. Those chips are shipped > with their clocks stopped, and you need to set a bit in them (normally > done by the OS at boot time, just in case) to "kick start" them. I > believe the datasheets even call it the "kick start bit". The battery > life is essentially the shelf life before the kick start bit is set for > the first time. First pulse in the /wr line... From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Aug 11 20:42:13 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 21:42:13 -0400 Subject: SparcBook Tadpole In-Reply-To: <012701cb39be$d5642270$0600000a@portajara> References: <992230.97947.qm@web52604.mail.re2.yahoo.com>, , <SNT129-W35920212CCFBCE4CAABE45A3950@phx.gbl>, , <4C60BEAC.5080609@neurotica.com>, <SNT129-W61D71C38D99D6E6DB2BFB3A3960@phx.gbl>, <08fa01cb3967$3f6269a0$9201a8c0@portajara>, <FF6AB92D97A23A409701CDBF66F03FCD03DC3E6EA0@505fuji><SNT129-W11234506A4545FAB51FE17A3960@phx.gbl> <4C634204.5070500@neurotica.com> <012701cb39be$d5642270$0600000a@portajara> Message-ID: <4C635175.2050407@neurotica.com> On 8/11/10 8:48 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >> Well yes, but it's not really all that bad. Those chips are shipped >> with their clocks stopped, and you need to set a bit in them (normally >> done by the OS at boot time, just in case) to "kick start" them. I >> believe the datasheets even call it the "kick start bit". The battery >> life is essentially the shelf life before the kick start bit is set >> for the first time. > > First pulse in the /wr line... Is that what does it? I definitely remember a "kick start" bit in the datasheet. Was that for the clock, and the /WR line enabled the backup for the SRAM? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cclist at sydex.com Wed Aug 11 20:55:47 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 18:55:47 -0700 Subject: PDP-10 vs. the world [was RE: GET LAMP is here] In-Reply-To: <CC28F43ED4708D489ABCF68D06D7F556040A5CC9CA@505DENALI.corp.vnw.com> References: <m1OiZIF-000J48C@p850ug1>, <4C62DDAD.32402.272AA83@cclist.sydex.com>, <CC28F43ED4708D489ABCF68D06D7F556040A5CC9CA@505DENALI.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <4C62F233.1302.2C2D7B8@cclist.sydex.com> On 11 Aug 2010 at 18:35, Rich Alderson wrote: > What's odd about it? ASCII is a 7-bit code, and if you have 36-bit > words at 5 characters per word you have a maximal use of memory. > (There was also a SIXBIT subset of ASCII which dropped the low 32 and > high 32 characters and packed 6 to a word, but it wasn't used for > general computing.) So what does DECSystem 10 packed character data look like on 7 track tape? CDC used it on occasion--6 bit characters in a 60 bit word was much easier to deal with than 7.5 8-bit characters or 8.571428571... characters per word. 12 and 10 bit characters were also proposed as well as using only the low-order 48 bits of a word. When the 7.5-per- word was proposed, the author proposed a new term for 7.5 characters-- a "snaque" (get it? nibble, byte snaque...) > FIELDATA, now, *that's* odd. ;-) No--RAD50 is odd. --Chuck From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Aug 11 22:11:50 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 23:11:50 -0400 Subject: GET JOKE is here Message-ID: <AANLkTimC1i-W_SwBr3FmKF3277PZxfAJHuHeB_FxuJQU@mail.gmail.com> And all this trouble because someone did not read the entire joke. It was only two lines... -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Aug 11 22:21:07 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 23:21:07 -0400 Subject: GET LAMP is here In-Reply-To: <FF6AB92D97A23A409701CDBF66F03FCD03DC3E6E9C@505fuji> References: <m1OiZIF-000J48C@p850ug1> <20100809163517.M21499@shell.lmi.net> <4C60E2D8.4040301@jetnet.ab.ca> <20100809223554.N21499@shell.lmi.net> <022a01cb389c$6fa0e4a0$9201a8c0@portajara> <AANLkTimK9xyQjg2CMwqJ-w+ibQ61c-mOyBbDkdv-R-Ms@mail.gmail.com> <20100810195908.GA365@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> <4C61B202.1050403@neurotica.com> <20100810225432.GC365@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> <AANLkTi=vm4rJgjY0ZYS66d15Hkfv1ydJVm=JscM9LpQq@mail.gmail.com> <20100811070249.GA24723@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> <AANLkTikZKZ+VTamzirV=syG-9uDYh8ozUH_kSJQV=W-o@mail.gmail.com> <FF6AB92D97A23A409701CDBF66F03FCD03DC3E6E9C@505fuji> Message-ID: <AANLkTikdzVr2M-EEhrvuMaOvyEt4xL_Nf+BPGvkksHoU@mail.gmail.com> > Of course, shipping for, say a hundred VT520s is significantly higher than for those modern replacements - even when you add in the (now LCD) screen. ?Oh that's right, you can just go down to Best Buy (which rarely is) to buy the screens.... I doubt shipping costs would be so much of an issue - VT520s, if they are anything like VT420s, are not very heavy. If company X needs several hundred dumb terminals spread around in their system, I bet they would have enough of their own shipping going on, and the VTs could hang on the sides of the trucks for free. > That's not to say I don't have a personal preference for the originals - I have mostly VT420s at home, and we're refurbishing a bunch of VT100s and VT52s here at work. ?-- Ian OK, I will say it - VT420s suck. -- Will From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Aug 11 22:23:42 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 23:23:42 -0400 Subject: GET LAMP is here In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikdzVr2M-EEhrvuMaOvyEt4xL_Nf+BPGvkksHoU@mail.gmail.com> References: <m1OiZIF-000J48C@p850ug1> <20100809163517.M21499@shell.lmi.net> <4C60E2D8.4040301@jetnet.ab.ca> <20100809223554.N21499@shell.lmi.net> <022a01cb389c$6fa0e4a0$9201a8c0@portajara> <AANLkTimK9xyQjg2CMwqJ-w+ibQ61c-mOyBbDkdv-R-Ms@mail.gmail.com> <20100810195908.GA365@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> <4C61B202.1050403@neurotica.com> <20100810225432.GC365@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> <AANLkTi=vm4rJgjY0ZYS66d15Hkfv1ydJVm=JscM9LpQq@mail.gmail.com> <20100811070249.GA24723@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> <AANLkTikZKZ+VTamzirV=syG-9uDYh8ozUH_kSJQV=W-o@mail.gmail.com> <FF6AB92D97A23A409701CDBF66F03FCD03DC3E6E9C@505fuji> <AANLkTikdzVr2M-EEhrvuMaOvyEt4xL_Nf+BPGvkksHoU@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4C63693E.8080801@neurotica.com> On 8/11/10 11:21 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >> Of course, shipping for, say a hundred VT520s is significantly higher than for those modern replacements - even when you add in the (now LCD) screen. Oh that's right, you can just go down to Best Buy (which rarely is) to buy the screens.... > > I doubt shipping costs would be so much of an issue - VT520s, if they > are anything like VT420s, are not very heavy. If company X needs > several hundred dumb terminals spread around in their system, I bet > they would have enough of their own shipping going on, and the VTs > could hang on the sides of the trucks for free. > >> That's not to say I don't have a personal preference for the originals - I have mostly VT420s at home, and we're refurbishing a bunch of VT100s and VT52s here at work. -- Ian > > OK, I will say it - VT420s suck. What don't you like about VT420s? They're my favorite of the line, followed closely by VT320 then VT220. I don't like VT520s at all. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Aug 11 22:54:06 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 23:54:06 -0400 Subject: 3278s Message-ID: <AANLkTi=Va7f+TchcJRMByu2Laqxx4z6ZYGknkh3GjCzY@mail.gmail.com> > Truely boat anchors, but well built boat anchors. There is a variant called 3277 mod 1. It is a small 3270 terminal, with a squished very rectangular tube that can only display 12 lines of text. These were used as consoles on S/3, and are very rare today. Save them if you get them! -- Will From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Aug 12 00:32:21 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 22:32:21 -0700 Subject: EPROM programming (27c160's) In-Reply-To: <4C633271.3090202@philpem.me.uk> References: <992230.97947.qm@web52604.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008110748020.3268@duo> <4C633271.3090202@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4C638765.602@brouhaha.com> Philip Pemberton wrote: > I'm still waiting for an EPROM programmer with Linux software available. I'm using a Data I/O Unisite 48, and had no trouble getting all the Linux software I needed for it. Eric From lproven at gmail.com Thu Aug 12 05:57:04 2010 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2010 11:57:04 +0100 Subject: GET LAMP is here In-Reply-To: <AANLkTim8UV0nCXXOfeYdkDshNOHacXva_Xskb8A6POCk@mail.gmail.com> References: <20100810125109.M61892@shell.lmi.net> <m1OjFLg-000J3xC@p850ug1> <AANLkTim8UV0nCXXOfeYdkDshNOHacXva_Xskb8A6POCk@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <AANLkTi=LFqu=-MMs3wqpH_9OCFDNwYW6iurxovU4OKuu@mail.gmail.com> On 11 August 2010 20:45, Dan Roganti <ragooman at gmail.com> wrote: > On Wed, Aug 11, 2010 at 1:44 PM, Tony Duell <ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk> wrote: > >> >> You know you've been hardware-hackign too long when all you can think of is >> the Quine McClusky minimalisation method... >> > > > and whether ?P?NP ? ?:) Indeed! Charlie Stross wrote an excellent short story about this once, called /Antibodies./ It's on Scribd here: http://www.scribd.com/doc/23396346/Charles-Stross-Antibodies After that, it's kind of a *relief* that apparently P<>NP. (Although also a disappointment.) OTOH, there are many issues with the proof: http://science.slashdot.org/story/10/08/11/0239209/Possible-Issues-With-the-P--NP-Proof -- Liam Proven ? Profile & links: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Aug 12 08:10:32 2010 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2010 08:10:32 -0500 Subject: OT - sort of In-Reply-To: <4C605A0A.3040807@tx.rr.com> References: <4C605A0A.3040807@tx.rr.com> Message-ID: <201008121315.o7CDFJ59068774@billY.EZWIND.NET> At 02:42 PM 8/9/2010, Charlie Carothers wrote: >Wanting to see if the web site is WOT approved, I googled jakkstvgames.com and it seems to only be referred to by other web sites. I finally got brave and typed it in to the Firefox URL entry and was rewarded with "403 Forbidden" and "You don't have permission to access / on this server." Sounds pretty scary to me. Try http://jakks.com/plug-play-tv-games . They also use TVGames.com. Administrative Contact, Technical Contact: JAKKS Pacific domains at jakks.net 22619 PCH #250 Malibu, CA 90265 US 310-455-6305 Record expires on 16-Dec-2010. Record created on 16-Dec-2002. Database last updated on 12-Aug-2010 08:50:57 EDT. From dkelvey at hotmail.com Thu Aug 12 08:35:20 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2010 06:35:20 -0700 Subject: SparcBook Tadpole In-Reply-To: <4C634204.5070500@neurotica.com> References: <992230.97947.qm@web52604.mail.re2.yahoo.com>, ,,<SNT129-W35920212CCFBCE4CAABE45A3950@phx.gbl>, , , <4C60BEAC.5080609@neurotica.com>, , <SNT129-W61D71C38D99D6E6DB2BFB3A3960@phx.gbl>, , <08fa01cb3967$3f6269a0$9201a8c0@portajara>, , <FF6AB92D97A23A409701CDBF66F03FCD03DC3E6EA0@505fuji>, <SNT129-W11234506A4545FAB51FE17A3960@phx.gbl>, <4C634204.5070500@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <SNT129-W7A87A12CD210EFCB24952A3970@phx.gbl> > Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 20:36:20 -0400 > From: mcguire at neurotica.com > To: > Subject: Re: SparcBook Tadpole > > On 8/11/10 6:38 PM, dwight elvey wrote: > > My problem is that I don't know if I can restore the information in it. > > The early Sparcbooks didn't have openboot. > > Under SunOS, you can use the program called "eeprom" to dump out most > of the important contents. As far as restoring it, I'm not sure about > that, as I don't know what ROM-based code the very early SPARCbooks use. > > One way to do it might be to read it out using an EPROM programmer. > My Data I/O supports the MK48T02, for example. > Hi I think I can read it with my programmer. At least with an adapter to make it think it is a 2716. I tried the "eeprom" and it didn't work :( This must be before someon realized it was a good idea. Acording to the history page I saw, the SparcBook was relatively early in the history of things. Dwight Dwight From dkelvey at hotmail.com Thu Aug 12 09:08:14 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2010 07:08:14 -0700 Subject: SparcBook Tadpole In-Reply-To: <SNT129-W7A87A12CD210EFCB24952A3970@phx.gbl> References: <992230.97947.qm@web52604.mail.re2.yahoo.com>, , , , <SNT129-W35920212CCFBCE4CAABE45A3950@phx.gbl>, , , , <4C60BEAC.5080609@neurotica.com>, ,,<SNT129-W61D71C38D99D6E6DB2BFB3A3960@phx.gbl>, ,,<08fa01cb3967$3f6269a0$9201a8c0@portajara>, , , <FF6AB92D97A23A409701CDBF66F03FCD03DC3E6EA0@505fuji>, , <SNT129-W11234506A4545FAB51FE17A3960@phx.gbl>, , <4C634204.5070500@neurotica.com>, <SNT129-W7A87A12CD210EFCB24952A3970@phx.gbl> Message-ID: <SNT129-W4128DAC677437D7D2F89CAA3970@phx.gbl> > From: dkelvey at hotmail.com > > > From: mcguire at neurotica.com > > > > On 8/11/10 6:38 PM, dwight elvey wrote: > > > My problem is that I don't know if I can restore the information in it. > > > The early Sparcbooks didn't have openboot. > > > > Under SunOS, you can use the program called "eeprom" to dump out most > > of the important contents. As far as restoring it, I'm not sure about > > that, as I don't know what ROM-based code the very early SPARCbooks use. > > > > One way to do it might be to read it out using an EPROM programmer. > > My Data I/O supports the MK48T02, for example. > > > > Hi > I think I can read it with my programmer. At least with an adapter to make > it think it is a 2716. > I tried the "eeprom" and it didn't work :( > This must be before someon realized it was a good idea. Acording > to the history page I saw, the SparcBook was relatively early in > the history of things. > Dwight > > Dwight > Hi Do you think I could use the program adb with /dev/nvram? Could I use it to display and or edit the nvram values? Dwight From jbmcb1 at gmail.com Thu Aug 12 10:32:59 2010 From: jbmcb1 at gmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2010 11:32:59 -0400 Subject: OT - sort of In-Reply-To: <4C605A0A.3040807@tx.rr.com> References: <4C605A0A.3040807@tx.rr.com> Message-ID: <AANLkTin9xbXtL35Z_93t=DkfEXk-QNqiX98bF5JjzTj+@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, Aug 9, 2010 at 3:42 PM, Charlie Carothers <csquared3 at tx.rr.com>wrote: > Of course the possibility of hacking it for other purposes never crossed > my mind. ;-) > > Later, > Charlie C. > There are several models of these all-in-one game consoles. I've heard that the Intellivision version is actually a full intellivision on an FPGA. People have hacked it so you can upload any ROM image you want. From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Aug 12 10:42:09 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2010 08:42:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT - sort of In-Reply-To: <AANLkTin9xbXtL35Z_93t=DkfEXk-QNqiX98bF5JjzTj+@mail.gmail.com> from Jason McBrien at "Aug 12, 10 11:32:59 am" Message-ID: <201008121542.o7CFg9SP017994@floodgap.com> > > Of course the possibility of hacking it for other purposes never crossed > > my mind. ;-) > > There are several models of these all-in-one game consoles. I've heard that > the Intellivision version is actually a full intellivision on an FPGA. > People have hacked it so you can upload any ROM image you want. Unless this was a later revision, the Inty one was an NES-on-a-chip device with reprogrammed games. But Curt's Flashback 2 is definitely the real thing. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- SOFTWARE -- formal evening attire for female computer analysts. ------------ From oltmansg at bellsouth.net Thu Aug 12 10:56:43 2010 From: oltmansg at bellsouth.net (geoffrey oltmans) Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2010 08:56:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT - sort of In-Reply-To: <201008121542.o7CFg9SP017994@floodgap.com> References: <201008121542.o7CFg9SP017994@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <962937.64098.qm@web83904.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> The Inty version also had very badly programmed games on top of that, so did the first Flashback. ________________________________ From: Cameron Kaiser <spectre at floodgap.com> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Sent: Thu, August 12, 2010 10:42:09 AM Subject: Re: OT - sort of > > Of course the possibility of hacking it for other purposes never crossed > > my mind. ;-) > > There are several models of these all-in-one game consoles. I've heard that > the Intellivision version is actually a full intellivision on an FPGA. > People have hacked it so you can upload any ROM image you want. Unless this was a later revision, the Inty one was an NES-on-a-chip device with reprogrammed games. But Curt's Flashback 2 is definitely the real thing. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- SOFTWARE -- formal evening attire for female computer analysts. ------------ From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Aug 12 12:20:09 2010 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2010 13:20:09 -0400 Subject: GET LAMP is here In-Reply-To: <20100811134041.A1024@shell.lmi.net> References: <m1OjFLg-000J3xC@p850ug1> <20100811134041.A1024@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4C642D49.4070701@gmail.com> Fred Cisin wrote: >>> Herpes was the worst incurable STD in those days. >> Oh no... back then 'STD' meant 'Subscriber Trunk Dialing' and nothing >> mroe :-) > > There were many 'STD' abreviations. Such as "standard", "SeT Direction", > "State Transition Diagram". But sexually transmitted diseases were not, > and didn't need to be, a major worry in those days. You didn't mention my favorite! STD-BUS. "Simple-to-design". Peace... Sridhar From IanK at vulcan.com Thu Aug 12 14:01:33 2010 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2010 12:01:33 -0700 Subject: Yet another food fight? (was RE: GET LAMP is here) In-Reply-To: <4C63693E.8080801@neurotica.com> References: <m1OiZIF-000J48C@p850ug1> <20100809163517.M21499@shell.lmi.net> <4C60E2D8.4040301@jetnet.ab.ca> <20100809223554.N21499@shell.lmi.net> <022a01cb389c$6fa0e4a0$9201a8c0@portajara> <AANLkTimK9xyQjg2CMwqJ-w+ibQ61c-mOyBbDkdv-R-Ms@mail.gmail.com> <20100810195908.GA365@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> <4C61B202.1050403@neurotica.com> <20100810225432.GC365@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> <AANLkTi=vm4rJgjY0ZYS66d15Hkfv1ydJVm=JscM9LpQq@mail.gmail.com> <20100811070249.GA24723@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> <AANLkTikZKZ+VTamzirV=syG-9uDYh8ozUH_kSJQV=W-o@mail.gmail.com> <FF6AB92D97A23A409701CDBF66F03FCD03DC3E6E9C@505fuji> <AANLkTikdzVr2M-EEhrvuMaOvyEt4xL_Nf+BPGvkksHoU@mail.gmail.com> <4C63693E.8080801@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <FF6AB92D97A23A409701CDBF66F03FCD03DC3E6EAC@505fuji> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dave McGuire > Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 2010 8:24 PM > To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: GET LAMP is here > > On 8/11/10 11:21 PM, William Donzelli wrote: > >> Of course, shipping for, say a hundred VT520s is significantly > higher than for those modern replacements - even when you add in the > (now LCD) screen. Oh that's right, you can just go down to Best Buy > (which rarely is) to buy the screens.... > > > > I doubt shipping costs would be so much of an issue - VT520s, if they > > are anything like VT420s, are not very heavy. If company X needs > > several hundred dumb terminals spread around in their system, I bet > > they would have enough of their own shipping going on, and the VTs > > could hang on the sides of the trucks for free. > > > >> That's not to say I don't have a personal preference for the > originals - I have mostly VT420s at home, and we're refurbishing a > bunch of VT100s and VT52s here at work. -- Ian > > > > OK, I will say it - VT420s suck. > > What don't you like about VT420s? They're my favorite of the line, > followed closely by VT320 then VT220. I don't like VT520s at all. > > -Dave > Relabeled for your enjoyment -- Ian From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Aug 12 14:05:51 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2010 15:05:51 -0400 Subject: Yet another food fight? (was RE: GET LAMP is here) In-Reply-To: <FF6AB92D97A23A409701CDBF66F03FCD03DC3E6EAC@505fuji> References: <m1OiZIF-000J48C@p850ug1> <20100809163517.M21499@shell.lmi.net> <4C60E2D8.4040301@jetnet.ab.ca> <20100809223554.N21499@shell.lmi.net> <022a01cb389c$6fa0e4a0$9201a8c0@portajara> <AANLkTimK9xyQjg2CMwqJ-w+ibQ61c-mOyBbDkdv-R-Ms@mail.gmail.com> <20100810195908.GA365@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> <4C61B202.1050403@neurotica.com> <20100810225432.GC365@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> <AANLkTi=vm4rJgjY0ZYS66d15Hkfv1ydJVm=JscM9LpQq@mail.gmail.com> <20100811070249.GA24723@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> <AANLkTikZKZ+VTamzirV=syG-9uDYh8ozUH_kSJQV=W-o@mail.gmail.com> <FF6AB92D97A23A409701CDBF66F03FCD03DC3E6E9C@505fuji> <AANLkTikdzVr2M-EEhrvuMaOvyEt4xL_Nf+BPGvkksHoU@mail.gmail.com> <4C63693E.8080801@neurotica.com> <FF6AB92D97A23A409701CDBF66F03FCD03DC3E6EAC@505fuji> Message-ID: <AANLkTindsx1j5LzKT_R3uL5rncWwbzuX1Z84AnW0UE2R@mail.gmail.com> > Relabeled for your enjoyment -- Ian Come to think of it, VT420s are relabeled for your enjoyment, as well. They are not DEC inside. -- Will From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Aug 12 14:08:10 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2010 15:08:10 -0400 Subject: Yet another food fight? (was RE: GET LAMP is here) In-Reply-To: <FF6AB92D97A23A409701CDBF66F03FCD03DC3E6EAC@505fuji> References: <m1OiZIF-000J48C@p850ug1> <20100809163517.M21499@shell.lmi.net> <4C60E2D8.4040301@jetnet.ab.ca> <20100809223554.N21499@shell.lmi.net> <022a01cb389c$6fa0e4a0$9201a8c0@portajara> <AANLkTimK9xyQjg2CMwqJ-w+ibQ61c-mOyBbDkdv-R-Ms@mail.gmail.com> <20100810195908.GA365@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> <4C61B202.1050403@neurotica.com> <20100810225432.GC365@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> <AANLkTi=vm4rJgjY0ZYS66d15Hkfv1ydJVm=JscM9LpQq@mail.gmail.com> <20100811070249.GA24723@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> <AANLkTikZKZ+VTamzirV=syG-9uDYh8ozUH_kSJQV=W-o@mail.gmail.com> <FF6AB92D97A23A409701CDBF66F03FCD03DC3E6E9C@505fuji> <AANLkTikdzVr2M-EEhrvuMaOvyEt4xL_Nf+BPGvkksHoU@mail.gmail.com> <4C63693E.8080801@neurotica.com> <FF6AB92D97A23A409701CDBF66F03FCD03DC3E6EAC@505fuji> Message-ID: <4C64469A.6050000@neurotica.com> On 8/12/10 3:01 PM, Ian King wrote: >>>> Of course, shipping for, say a hundred VT520s is significantly >> higher than for those modern replacements - even when you add in the >> (now LCD) screen. Oh that's right, you can just go down to Best Buy >> (which rarely is) to buy the screens.... >>> >>> I doubt shipping costs would be so much of an issue - VT520s, if they >>> are anything like VT420s, are not very heavy. If company X needs >>> several hundred dumb terminals spread around in their system, I bet >>> they would have enough of their own shipping going on, and the VTs >>> could hang on the sides of the trucks for free. >>> >>>> That's not to say I don't have a personal preference for the >> originals - I have mostly VT420s at home, and we're refurbishing a >> bunch of VT100s and VT52s here at work. -- Ian >>> >>> OK, I will say it - VT420s suck. >> >> What don't you like about VT420s? They're my favorite of the line, >> followed closely by VT320 then VT220. I don't like VT520s at all. > > Relabeled for your enjoyment -- Ian Not at all, I just wanted to know what he didn't like about them. The only thing I dislike about VT420s is the non-removable power cables. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Aug 12 14:19:47 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2010 15:19:47 -0400 Subject: Yet another food fight? (was RE: GET LAMP is here) In-Reply-To: <AANLkTindsx1j5LzKT_R3uL5rncWwbzuX1Z84AnW0UE2R@mail.gmail.com> References: <m1OiZIF-000J48C@p850ug1> <20100809163517.M21499@shell.lmi.net> <4C60E2D8.4040301@jetnet.ab.ca> <20100809223554.N21499@shell.lmi.net> <022a01cb389c$6fa0e4a0$9201a8c0@portajara> <AANLkTimK9xyQjg2CMwqJ-w+ibQ61c-mOyBbDkdv-R-Ms@mail.gmail.com> <20100810195908.GA365@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> <4C61B202.1050403@neurotica.com> <20100810225432.GC365@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> <AANLkTi=vm4rJgjY0ZYS66d15Hkfv1ydJVm=JscM9LpQq@mail.gmail.com> <20100811070249.GA24723@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> <AANLkTikZKZ+VTamzirV=syG-9uDYh8ozUH_kSJQV=W-o@mail.gmail.com> <FF6AB92D97A23A409701CDBF66F03FCD03DC3E6E9C@505fuji> <AANLkTikdzVr2M-EEhrvuMaOvyEt4xL_Nf+BPGvkksHoU@mail.gmail.com> <4C63693E.8080801@neurotica.com> <FF6AB92D97A23A409701CDBF66F03FCD03DC3E6EAC@505fuji> <AANLkTindsx1j5LzKT_R3uL5rncWwbzuX1Z84AnW0UE2R@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4C644953.6030001@neurotica.com> On 8/12/10 3:05 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >> Relabeled for your enjoyment -- Ian > > Come to think of it, VT420s are relabeled for your enjoyment, as well. > They are not DEC inside. Not quite. The VT420 was introduced in 1990, and the terminal business was sold to Boundless in 1995. This is from dusty memory, corrections welcome, but I believe this to be correct. This makes the VT420 most definitely a "DEC inside" device. This also seems consistent with the major design differences between the VT420 and the (Boundless-manufactured) VT510. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From dkelvey at hotmail.com Thu Aug 12 14:22:52 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2010 12:22:52 -0700 Subject: EPROM programming (27c160's) In-Reply-To: <992230.97947.qm@web52604.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <992230.97947.qm@web52604.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <SNT129-W525AA19A51BC00D55F0592A3970@phx.gbl> > From: ian_primus at yahoo.com ---snip--- > > So, carefully reading the datasheet, I notice that the 27c160 wants a program pulse of 50us. The chip that the programmer thinks it's programming, a 27c040, uses a programming pulse of 100ns. The programming waveforms between a 27c160 and a 27c040 look the same to me, besides that. But it would seem that my problems lie with the waveform being incorrect, and newer chips being less picky about it than the older chips of the same part number. > > Now, I'm stumped. I *really* want to make this programmer program these chips. It does everything else properly, including program 27c322's with this adapter. Now, I know the adapter is wired correctly, because I have programmed newer rev 27c160's properly, and they have worked perfectly in their intended purpose. The adapter is wired up such that in 27c322 mode, the programmer is used as if it were a 27c080, and in 27c160 mode the programmer is used as if it were a 27c040. I did it this way due to the pinouts of the devices and the required programming algorithms. > > Basically, I am wondering if any of our resident gurus have seen behavior like this with EPROMs, and if there may be anything I can do to shorten pulses, buffer, or something to get this to program... or, if anyone just *happens* to have the source code to the EMP software laying around somewhere... > Hi I was giving this some thought. What problem are you actually having? Are you getting cells that don't program or are you seeing cells that are being programmed without there bing a bit '0' in that location. One thing to check is the quality of the socket used. Most older Zero insertion sockets use metal that does corrode over time. These do need bernishing. This usually causes failures in connecting address or data line. If it is failing to program, increase the voltage a little ( worst you can do is blow out the part ). If you are seeing bit that are programmed to zeros that shouldn't be, try reducing the voltage. Also turn off any manuufacture recognition and use generic programming. As I said, the most common problem is bad contact on the pins. The socket could have corrosion and the sides of the pins could also have corrosion. Doing a dump after a programming error can show quite a bit about what was happening. Dwight From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Aug 12 14:29:48 2010 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2010 15:29:48 -0400 Subject: Yet another food fight? (was RE: GET LAMP is here) In-Reply-To: <4C64469A.6050000@neurotica.com> References: <m1OiZIF-000J48C@p850ug1> <20100809163517.M21499@shell.lmi.net> <4C60E2D8.4040301@jetnet.ab.ca> <20100809223554.N21499@shell.lmi.net> <022a01cb389c$6fa0e4a0$9201a8c0@portajara> <AANLkTimK9xyQjg2CMwqJ-w+ibQ61c-mOyBbDkdv-R-Ms@mail.gmail.com> <20100810195908.GA365@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> <4C61B202.1050403@neurotica.com> <20100810225432.GC365@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> <AANLkTi=vm4rJgjY0ZYS66d15Hkfv1ydJVm=JscM9LpQq@mail.gmail.com> <20100811070249.GA24723@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> <AANLkTikZKZ+VTamzirV=syG-9uDYh8ozUH_kSJQV=W-o@mail.gmail.com> <FF6AB92D97A23A409701CDBF66F03FCD03DC3E6E9C@505fuji> <AANLkTikdzVr2M-EEhrvuMaOvyEt4xL_Nf+BPGvkksHoU@mail.gmail.com> <4C63693E.8080801@neurotica.com> <FF6AB92D97A23A409701CDBF66F03FCD03DC3E6EAC@505fuji> <4C64469A.6050000@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4C644BAC.4010707@gmail.com> Dave McGuire wrote: >>> What don't you like about VT420s? They're my favorite of the line, >>> followed closely by VT320 then VT220. I don't like VT520s at all. >> >> Relabeled for your enjoyment -- Ian > > Not at all, I just wanted to know what he didn't like about them. The > only thing I dislike about VT420s is the non-removable power cables. I mostly use my two VT340s nowadays (thanks, Dave), but I have to say my favorite ASCII RS-232 serial terminal is the IBM 3153. Excellent keyboards. Can't say the same for the LK201 or LK401. Peace... Sridhar From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Aug 12 13:46:56 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2010 19:46:56 +0100 (BST) Subject: Pronouncing acronyms (was Re: DEC acronyms) In-Reply-To: <UqZnnrWN.1281429480.9228710.jotter@howe.textdrive.com> from "Jonas Otter" at Aug 10, 10 08:38:00 am Message-ID: <m1Ojcnr-000J3xC@p850ug1> > > Concerning dismantling lenses in order to clean helicoids, diaphragm > blades etc. you might be interested in Chuck Cole's opinions as > expressed in the ManualMinoltaFree Yahoo group. Somehow I imagine you > might disagree with him, or else you might explain your method of > dealing with the issues he feels so strongly about... Well, if he's suggesting spaying soemthing into the lens (yes, I have seen that suggested!), I certainly disapprove. If he;'s suggesting removing the optical elemenets and applyuing solvent/lubricantmix to the mount, then that's slightly better, but IMHO that's a method used by people who can't handle tools and small parts properly, and if you're not careful, it simply shifts the gummy lubricant, etc, elsewhere where it will cause toruble lateer. I really do prefer to clean each part separately. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Aug 12 13:49:54 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2010 19:49:54 +0100 (BST) Subject: an old program, was Re: GET LAMP was here In-Reply-To: <4C62FE2D.8010805@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Aug 11, 10 03:46:53 pm Message-ID: <m1Ojcqk-000J3yC@p850ug1> > Does anyone here remember a program called "The Last One" that was I rememebr the adverts, but nothing more. I've never seen the program itself. > advertised in full-page ads in BYTE? I believe it was a code generator > of some sort. I'll go digging through magazines to see if I can find I seem to revall the name came from the idea that this is the last program you'd have to buy becuase you could write everything yourself. I think it was OK for writing database type things, but not much else. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Aug 12 13:23:54 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2010 19:23:54 +0100 (BST) Subject: OT - sort of In-Reply-To: <4C605A0A.3040807@tx.rr.com> from "Charlie Carothers" at Aug 9, 10 02:42:02 pm Message-ID: <m1OjcRc-000J3uC@p850ug1> > it up to explore the insides at all - yet. On the bottom next to the > list of games are copyright dates from 1960 to 1983, the best I can I wonder what the copyright from 1960 covers? > tell. There is also a copyright notice on the bottom dated 2004 for > JAKKS Pacific, Inc. and a reference to www.jakkstvgames.com. > > This little gadget has a joystick, a few pushbutton switches, and > composite video and a sound output. It allows one to play vintage Ms. > Pac-Man, Galaga, Pole Position, Mappy, and Xavious by connecting it to a > standard TV's video and audio inputs. I mention this here because I > just thought it was really cool to be able to play these vintage games, > and some might be in the same uninformed group with me. :-) FWIW, my > daughter says there are a number of other similar units with different > games, and the web seems to confirm this. > I've sene similar units (with different numbers of games) on sale over here. PAL video output, of course. And rather more expensive than the equivalent of $20... Anyway, I'd assuemd (with no evidence, I must add) that the internals were mostly epoxy-capped chip-on-board things, impossible to modify. So I've not bought one. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Aug 12 13:54:21 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2010 19:54:21 +0100 (BST) Subject: SparcBook Tadpole In-Reply-To: <20100811215935.788e4ce4.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> from "Jochen Kunz" at Aug 11, 10 09:59:35 pm Message-ID: <m1Ojcv3-000J43C@p850ug1> > Dave McGuire <mcguire at neurotica.com> wrote: > > > > I tried doing a search on google for anyone hacking these chips > > > to replace the battery but all I got were chip sales. > > I've seen pages documenting this, but that was years ago. > I do this hack this way: > File down the top of the chip at the pin 12 / 13 end until you get to > the top of the old battery. The top of the battery is the + contact. What is the battery? A lithium coin cell? Having had all sorts of batteries leak over the years, I would be happer if you could repmve the old battery (even if it makes a mess of the top of the package. Is that possible? The ones I have seen look to be a normal 28 pin DIL package with a separat block of encapsulant containing the battery (I assume) on top. How are the wirtes from the battery connected into the 28 pin DIL package part? Is it possible to cut away rather mroe of the encapsulant block and remvoe the old battery without wrecking the chip? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Aug 12 14:00:34 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2010 20:00:34 +0100 (BST) Subject: GET LAMP is here In-Reply-To: <20100811134041.A1024@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Aug 11, 10 01:59:02 pm Message-ID: <m1Ojd13-000J48C@p850ug1> > > If a 'party' is what I think it is, I'll jsut stick to fixing my classic > > computers ;-) > > In those days, parties were much more varied than they are now. > The first time that I played Adventure (see! we don't know how to stay > off-topic!), the first time that I saw an 8080 or Z80, my first hands-on > with S100, flight simulator (pre-release?) on an Apple, were all at > parties in the San Francisco area in the mid to late 1970s. Ah, right... Souns a bit like a certain event I attend once a month. > > Building a machine that runs a graphical browser using only stock chips > > doesnt sound totally tivial/. > > Surely a graphical browser, (if NOT done in a High Level Language) could > be written to run on a 5150 with CGA. I think most graphical web pages would be pretty much useless at 320*200 in 4 pre-chosen colours... IIRC the origianl 5150 couldn't take a hard disk. So with a maximum, of 640K or RAM and 4 360K disk drives (which I suppose you oculd use for buffering data), I think it's going to be hard to handle multi-megabyte web pages... > > > > Even thoguh I am pretty fast with a soldering iron, Isuspect I could > > read that centence rather quicker htan I could solder in a 40 pin DIL chip... > > I'm not as good with soldering. I could read that sentence in less time > than a single pin of the 40 pin DIP. But, I could finish soldering the 40 > pin socket (marginal soldering skills) before this dial-up would be > displaying the page. Heck, with my set-up, I think I could propualte the entire PCB before the page has fully downloaded... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Aug 12 14:04:07 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2010 20:04:07 +0100 (BST) Subject: SparcBook Tadpole In-Reply-To: <4C631593.6080408@jwsss.com> from "jim s" at Aug 11, 10 02:26:43 pm Message-ID: <m1Ojd4U-000J49C@p850ug1> > > Ooh... I've seen that page before, and that technique looks dangerous > > (the soldering to the Li battery part). > > > > > The places I've been who supply large numbers of replacement batteries > all have a fancy welding rig which they can use to stick a set of bands There ahve been various designes for these in magazines and on the web over the years. They don't look too hard to build. > on any battery, including lithium, by welding. Then solder to that. It > may not be as pretty as some of the soldered approaches, but i agree > with you, I'm not going to apply solder heat to a lithium battery. It's > all about heat not temperature to make them explode. Nor would I. But you can get lithium coin cells with PCB pins (which you can solder to), or coil cell holders. I would use the latter if there was space, it makes future repairs easier... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Aug 12 14:25:45 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2010 20:25:45 +0100 (BST) Subject: EPROM programming (27c160's) In-Reply-To: <4C633271.3090202@philpem.me.uk> from "Philip Pemberton" at Aug 12, 10 00:29:53 am Message-ID: <m1OjdPR-000J4CC@p850ug1> > I'm still waiting for an EPROM programmer with Linux software available. Make one!. The programming specs for most EPROMs are available, I think... > > I'm actually tempted to do a GAL/fuse-PROM programmer seeing as my > GALBlast won't work worth a damn on this machine :( Are enough of the programming algorithms documented to make this possible? For the fusible-link PROMs (and PALs), every manufactuer seemed to do it their own way. Some would release the programming specifications (they were even sometimes in the data sheets), others wouldn't. Some stopped releaisng them, so you could get hand-program the early parts but no the later ones. Ditto for GALs (although, actually, geting any programmign specification for those was 'interestings') -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Aug 12 14:22:55 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2010 20:22:55 +0100 (BST) Subject: SparcBook Tadpole In-Reply-To: <FF6AB92D97A23A409701CDBF66F03FCD03DC3E6EA7@505fuji> from "Ian King" at Aug 11, 10 03:43:33 pm Message-ID: <m1OjdMh-000J4BC@p850ug1> > But that describes everything we talk about here that uses magtape, disk pa= > cks, 7400-series TTL, ASICs, (god help us) ECL, et tedious cetera. Yes, in= True enough :-( > another few years my Voyager will have a dead NVRAM again and I may or may= > not be able to get another chip. I might not even be able to get a new > battery: that's a problem with my Minolta SRT series SLRs, where the I think that's unlikey. The voltage is not too critical (it needs to be between 3-ish ance 5V, I think). I have had success using a couple of AA cells in series (normal 1.5V Duracells) as a replaemeent for a backup coil cell in some systems. No, they don't last as long (shelf life is lower), but they are avaialble _anywhere_. > excellent TTL metering doesn't work anymore because it was designed to > be powered by mercury cells that I can't buy anymore. While you can, alas, no longer get mercury batteries, there are plenty of work-arounds for this. If the STT101 I've just picked up from my pile of odd cameras is anythign to go by, it takes a single PX13/PX625 cell. There is an alkaline equivelent that's the same size, but highter voltage, and I susepct, alas, the Mimnolta meter woudl care about that. Often connecting a single shottky diode in sereis with the cell will do the teick, if there's space inside the camera (sorry, I've not pulled the bottm plate to check), then it's easy to add it. If there isn't space, then there's a fairly expensive adapterwhich takes a smaller alkanline cell and includes a series diode. Or you could make soemthing like that. Or a new battrey cover containing contacts with wires leading to an external PSU of the right voltage. If you like, I can take my SRT101 apart and see how the metering system works.. FWIW, I'v;e never found a classic camera/exposure meter that will be damed by using the alkaline rather than the mercury cell. It may give silly readings though. It's worth trying and comparing with a known-good exposure meter. Some cameras used bridge circuits for the meters. East German Prakticas did. As dod at least one of the metering prisms for the Exakta. if the correct exposure is indicated by the bridge being balanced, then the battery voltage is irrelevant (within reason), so you cna use the 1.5V alklaline cell in your MRL3 or whatever without problems The Pentax Spotmatic is a ridiculous design. it's a bridge alright, but the correct exposoure is indicated by a small current floing through the meter, the bridge is not balanced. The official rason for this is that you can't get an 'correct exposure' indication if the battery is totally flat (so the meter can't deflect at all). FOO!. It would be extremely rare that the controls were set just right to give the exposure needed for whatever you're point the camera at, and I think any photographer who used such a camera and found no meter deflection would instinctively move the camera around and/or turn the aperture ring to check the meter was working. I know I would. My view is thath te Spotmatic meter is a bodge! > > If you want an appliance, yes, it's important to not let yourself fall too = > far behind the curve. But if you're a manly man (or a womanly woman) and s= > eek great adventure and even greater glory (and perhaps even an advantage w= > ith members of the gender of your choice), you'll geek-up and do what it ta= > kes to keep your Olde Beaste running. =20 Yes, it deepends on what you want to do. If you want to run the lattest software, you need a modern-ish computer. But I am quite happy using this classic for e-mail, text processing, etc. It does all I need. And I understand how it works and how to keep it working. -tony From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Aug 12 14:34:56 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2010 15:34:56 -0400 Subject: Yet another food fight? (was RE: GET LAMP is here) In-Reply-To: <4C644BAC.4010707@gmail.com> References: <m1OiZIF-000J48C@p850ug1> <20100809163517.M21499@shell.lmi.net> <4C60E2D8.4040301@jetnet.ab.ca> <20100809223554.N21499@shell.lmi.net> <022a01cb389c$6fa0e4a0$9201a8c0@portajara> <AANLkTimK9xyQjg2CMwqJ-w+ibQ61c-mOyBbDkdv-R-Ms@mail.gmail.com> <20100810195908.GA365@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> <4C61B202.1050403@neurotica.com> <20100810225432.GC365@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> <AANLkTi=vm4rJgjY0ZYS66d15Hkfv1ydJVm=JscM9LpQq@mail.gmail.com> <20100811070249.GA24723@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> <AANLkTikZKZ+VTamzirV=syG-9uDYh8ozUH_kSJQV=W-o@mail.gmail.com> <FF6AB92D97A23A409701CDBF66F03FCD03DC3E6E9C@505fuji> <AANLkTikdzVr2M-EEhrvuMaOvyEt4xL_Nf+BPGvkksHoU@mail.gmail.com> <4C63693E.8080801@neurotica.com> <FF6AB92D97A23A409701CDBF66F03FCD03DC3E6EAC@505fuji> <4C64469A.6050000@neurotica.com> <4C644BAC.4010707@gmail.com> Message-ID: <AANLkTikjYnuiYyAUE2Hm1sycCxXbdtPh6_4fR4R--_b+@mail.gmail.com> > I mostly use my two VT340s nowadays (thanks, Dave), but I have to say my > favorite ASCII RS-232 serial terminal is the IBM 3153. ?Excellent keyboards. > ?Can't say the same for the LK201 or LK401. Yes, those 315x terminals are nice. Especially the ones with keyboards that actually fit inside a rack. I do not like the VT420 due to MMJ, the relatively low reliability, and that CRAP power switch on the front. The keyboards are nothing to write home about either, but DEC keyboards rarely are. -- Will From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Aug 12 14:44:28 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2010 20:44:28 +0100 (BST) Subject: Yet another food fight? (was RE: GET LAMP is here) In-Reply-To: <4C64469A.6050000@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Aug 12, 10 03:08:10 pm Message-ID: <m1OjdhX-000J3uC@p850ug1> > >> What don't you like about VT420s? They're my favorite of the line, > >> followed closely by VT320 then VT220. I don't like VT520s at all. > > > > Relabeled for your enjoyment -- Ian > > Not at all, I just wanted to know what he didn't like about them. The Agreed. I don't think reasoned criticism of products is out of place here... > only thing I dislike about VT420s is the non-removable power cables. For things with fixed power cables that I am going to be moving around a lot, I have been known to cut the power cable about 6" from the device and fit an IEC plug (the sort of thing that goes into the power outlet socket on a PC). Then I can use a normal 'kettle lead' to power it. Of course if there's space on the cabient for a chassis-mount IEC plug I fit that (and for some reason, a number of devices with fixed power cables have them held in my a strain-relief bush fitted to a blanking plate which happens to cover a hole just the right size for such a plug). Getting back to termianls, The VT5xx and VT4xx are too modern for me to have ever used... But I dislike VT3xx's. My expeirence of thsoe is that they eat flyback transfomers, and replacement transformeres are hard to get and expensive. Whereas VT220s don't (I think I've only ever repaled one flyback in a VT220). The ony porblem with the VT220 is the horizonal hold preset, pulliing the case and turning it back and forth a few times cures that. -tony From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Aug 12 14:51:45 2010 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2010 12:51:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT - sort of In-Reply-To: <m1OjcRc-000J3uC@p850ug1> References: <m1OjcRc-000J3uC@p850ug1> Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.00.1008121244250.12715@grumble.deltasoft.com> On Thu, 12 Aug 2010, Tony Duell wrote: > Anyway, I'd assuemd (with no evidence, I must add) that the internals > were mostly epoxy-capped chip-on-board things, impossible to modify. So > I've not bought one. > The C-64 DTV that Jeri Ellsworth created actually has room on the board to add a keyboard and an IEC connector. There may be more, but I don't recall. Here's the hack for adding disk drives: http://picobay.com/dtv_wiki/index.php?title=IEC_port Here's the keyboard hack: http://picobay.com/dtv_wiki/index.php?title=Keyboard_port g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From cclist at sydex.com Thu Aug 12 14:59:36 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2010 12:59:36 -0700 Subject: GET LAMP is here In-Reply-To: <m1Ojd13-000J48C@p850ug1> References: <20100811134041.A1024@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Aug 11, 10 01:59:02 pm, <m1Ojd13-000J48C@p850ug1> Message-ID: <4C63F038.5472.D5640D@cclist.sydex.com> On 12 Aug 2010 at 20:00, Tony Duell wrote: > IIRC the origianl 5150 couldn't take a hard disk. So with a maximum, > of 640K or RAM and 4 360K disk drives (which I suppose you oculd use > for buffering data), I think it's going to be hard to handle > multi-megabyte web pages... There were many third-party hard drives. I rigged up my own with an SA-1000, WD1001 and a little interface board. 4MB, granted wasn't much, but it worked. Ampex and others had similar setups. And one could always use LIM (EMS) memory on a 5150. Lynx is available for DOS, but is severely memory-constrained and slow as a Dell customer service representative. Arachne will run on a 286, but you don't want to endure waiting for a page to load. --Chuck From marvin at west.net Thu Aug 12 16:01:37 2010 From: marvin at west.net (Marvin Johnston) Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2010 14:01:37 -0700 Subject: HP 9825A Message-ID: <4C646131.3030500@west.net> I've got several HP 9825A calculator/computers that I don't need. In checking out the first one, I get an error code 30 which according to the quick reference means special function not defined. Anyone know what this actually means? As soon as I get them checked out and to a known condition, I'll go ahead and put them up on the VCGM, and start them at around $50 - $75 depending on condition. I've just got WAY too much stuff around here, and I don't expect to ever really want to play with these. BTW, I only get the digest, so I'll see any response(s) on the next digest. Thanks! Marvin From legalize at xmission.com Thu Aug 12 16:41:50 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2010 15:41:50 -0600 Subject: Yet another food fight? (was RE: GET LAMP is here) In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 12 Aug 2010 15:05:51 -0400. <AANLkTindsx1j5LzKT_R3uL5rncWwbzuX1Z84AnW0UE2R@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <E1OjfX4-00029h-7h@shell.xmission.com> In article <AANLkTindsx1j5LzKT_R3uL5rncWwbzuX1Z84AnW0UE2R at mail.gmail.com>, William Donzelli <wdonzelli at gmail.com> writes: > Come to think of it, VT420s are relabeled for your enjoyment, as well. > They are not DEC inside. What's in them? I have some and haven't cracked open the case. <http://vt100.net/vt_history> doesn't mention anything about them not actually being DEC inside. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com/the-direct3d-graphics-pipeline/> Legalize Adulthood! <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com> From pete at dunnington.plus.com Thu Aug 12 16:45:40 2010 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2010 22:45:40 +0100 Subject: Pronouncing acronyms (was Re: DEC acronyms) In-Reply-To: <m1Ojcnr-000J3xC@p850ug1> References: <m1Ojcnr-000J3xC@p850ug1> Message-ID: <4C646B84.2090607@dunnington.plus.com> On 12/08/2010 19:46, Tony Duell wrote: >> Concerning dismantling lenses in order to clean helicoids, diaphragm >> blades etc. you might be interested in Chuck Cole's opinions as >> expressed in the ManualMinoltaFree Yahoo group. Somehow I imagine you >> might disagree with him, or else you might explain your method of >> dealing with the issues he feels so strongly about... > > Well, if he's suggesting spaying soemthing into the lens (yes, I have > seen that suggested!), I certainly disapprove. If he;'s suggesting > removing the optical elemenets and applyuing solvent/lubricantmix to the > mount, then that's slightly better, but IMHO that's a method used by > people who can't handle tools and small parts properly, and if you're not > careful, it simply shifts the gummy lubricant, etc, elsewhere where it > will cause toruble lateer. I really do prefer to clean each part separately. Chuck is also a regular contributor to the camera-fix group, and some might describe him as, hmm, assertive perhaps, occasionally abrasive maybe, and I've even seen someone describe him as arrogant. His attitude to cleaning focussing mechanisms would certainly not involve any aerosol, and lubricant (of a petrochemical variety at least) wouldn't be part of his vocabulary in the context of an iris diaphragm! In fact the last thing I recall him getting het up about re threads was that he believes only special lubricants should be allowed near a lens, and that what's suitably for a focussing screw wouldn't be the same thing you'd want on the diaphragm. Well, no argument from me there. Some people felt he was a bit OTT and unhelpful. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Thu Aug 12 16:53:22 2010 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2010 14:53:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: P112 kit pre-orders Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.1.10.1008121444080.10273@sleipnir.cs.csubak.edu> You've asked me again and again "When will you have more P112 kits?". The answer is "very soon". I'm now taking pre-orders. The kits are $150 for shipping in the US and $160 outside the US. You can place your order at using Paypal http://661.org/p112. If you'd rather not use Paypal, email me and we'll get something worked out. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Thu Aug 12 17:05:15 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2010 19:05:15 -0300 Subject: EPROM programming (27c160's) References: <m1OjdPR-000J4CC@p850ug1> Message-ID: <06e901cb3a6c$e4fc4c90$9201a8c0@portajara> WILLEM!!! The specs and source code are still avaiable on the net :) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" <ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk> To: <cctalk at classiccmp.org> Sent: Thursday, August 12, 2010 4:25 PM Subject: Re: EPROM programming (27c160's) >> I'm still waiting for an EPROM programmer with Linux software available. > > Make one!. The programming specs for most EPROMs are available, I think... > >> >> I'm actually tempted to do a GAL/fuse-PROM programmer seeing as my >> GALBlast won't work worth a damn on this machine :( > > Are enough of the programming algorithms documented to make this > possible? For the fusible-link PROMs (and PALs), every manufactuer seemed > to do it their own way. Some would release the programming specifications > (they were even sometimes in the data sheets), others wouldn't. Some > stopped releaisng them, so you could get hand-program the early parts but > no the later ones. > > Ditto for GALs (although, actually, geting any programmign specification > for those was 'interestings') > > -tony From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Aug 12 17:42:29 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2010 15:42:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: GET LAMP is here In-Reply-To: <m1Ojd13-000J48C@p850ug1> References: <m1Ojd13-000J48C@p850ug1> Message-ID: <20100812152308.Q47600@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 12 Aug 2010, Tony Duell wrote: > > Surely a graphical browser, (if NOT done in a High Level Language) could > > be written to run on a 5150 with CGA. > I think most graphical web pages would be pretty much useless at 320*200 > in 4 pre-chosen colours... More useless than they are on this POS with VGA? > IIRC the origianl 5150 couldn't take a hard disk. Could be done, using a floppy boot disk with certain startup code. Did any of them use the "extra" ROM socket on the 5150? > So with a maximum, of 640K or RAM EMS (LIM?) Although MOST expanded memory systems were 16 bit, and written with 286 code, there WERE 8 bit EMS boards, and 808x software. > and 4 360K disk drives (which I suppose you oculd use for > buffering data), I think it's going to be hard to handle multi-megabyte > web pages... I ran 8" DSDD on a 5150, with an aftermarket FDC board. I saw 8 bit hard drives running on PCs, and even on Apple][, and TRS80 model 3! I never bought one, because they were a few hundred to a thousand dollars per megabyte! -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Aug 12 17:53:20 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2010 15:53:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: GOT LAMP In-Reply-To: <AANLkTi=LFqu=-MMs3wqpH_9OCFDNwYW6iurxovU4OKuu@mail.gmail.com> References: <20100810125109.M61892@shell.lmi.net> <m1OjFLg-000J3xC@p850ug1> <AANLkTim8UV0nCXXOfeYdkDshNOHacXva_Xskb8A6POCk@mail.gmail.com> <AANLkTi=LFqu=-MMs3wqpH_9OCFDNwYW6iurxovU4OKuu@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20100812154648.N47600@shell.lmi.net> There was some discussion earlier about the nature of the fuel for the lamp. Although it is explicitly battery operated (see vending machine!), It was generally assumed not to be a conventional torch/flashlight. Well, a friend knew that I was in need of a better power failure light, and gave me a lamp. It looks like an ordinary "hurricane lantern". But, instead of combustion, it has more than a dozen LEDs! The "fuel tank" has a door on the bottom for batteries. What appears to be a liquid fuel tank cap rotates, and is actually an ON/OFF switch and dimmer control! I'm not used to seeing reasonably smooth dimming with LEDs. From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Aug 12 18:41:07 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2010 16:41:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: GET LAMP is here In-Reply-To: <4C642D49.4070701@gmail.com> References: <m1OjFLg-000J3xC@p850ug1> <20100811134041.A1024@shell.lmi.net> <4C642D49.4070701@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20100812163822.S47600@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 12 Aug 2010, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > You didn't mention my favorite! STD-BUS. "Simple-to-design". I apologize for leaving out a truly important STD. "party like it's 1979"? Hell, yes. The world has reassigned the most prevalent use of STD from STD-BUS to Sexually Transmitted Diseases. Is THAT an improvement? From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Aug 12 18:42:01 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2010 19:42:01 -0400 Subject: Yet another food fight? (was RE: GET LAMP is here) In-Reply-To: <E1OjfX4-00029h-7h@shell.xmission.com> References: <AANLkTindsx1j5LzKT_R3uL5rncWwbzuX1Z84AnW0UE2R@mail.gmail.com> <E1OjfX4-00029h-7h@shell.xmission.com> Message-ID: <AANLkTikDJFY2OqQWPa4-E3wxfdnBxS1XDQvEgoJwOObx@mail.gmail.com> > What's in them? ?I have some and haven't cracked open the case. > <http://vt100.net/vt_history> doesn't mention anything about them not > actually being DEC inside. I have heard that the engineering was farmed out. DEC's terminal business was a shell of its former self back when the VT420 was introduced, so it may be true. -- Will From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Aug 12 18:45:00 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2010 16:45:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Pronouncing acronyms (was Re: DEC acronyms) In-Reply-To: <4C646B84.2090607@dunnington.plus.com> References: <m1Ojcnr-000J3xC@p850ug1> <4C646B84.2090607@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <20100812164244.S47600@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 12 Aug 2010, Pete Turnbull wrote: > In fact the last thing I recall him getting het up about re threads > was that he believes only special lubricants should be allowed near a > lens, and that what's suitably for a focussing screw wouldn't be the > same thing you'd want on the diaphragm. Can ANYBODY disagree with THAT??? From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Aug 12 19:13:11 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2010 17:13:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: GET LAMP is here In-Reply-To: <m1Ojd13-000J48C@p850ug1> References: <m1Ojd13-000J48C@p850ug1> Message-ID: <20100812171201.C47600@shell.lmi.net> > > In those days, parties were much more varied than they are now. > > The first time that I played Adventure (see! we don't know how to stay > > off-topic!), the first time that I saw an 8080 or Z80, my first hands-on > > with S100, flight simulator (pre-release?) on an Apple, were all at > > parties in the San Francisco area in the mid to late 1970s. On Thu, 12 Aug 2010, Tony Duell wrote: > Ah, right... Souns a bit like a certain event I attend once a month. In the 60s, and even the 70s, there were such parties every night, if you were so inclined. From legalize at xmission.com Thu Aug 12 20:39:57 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2010 19:39:57 -0600 Subject: Yet another food fight? (was RE: GET LAMP is here) In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 12 Aug 2010 19:42:01 -0400. <AANLkTikDJFY2OqQWPa4-E3wxfdnBxS1XDQvEgoJwOObx@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <E1OjjFV-0002op-Df@shell.xmission.com> In article <AANLkTikDJFY2OqQWPa4-E3wxfdnBxS1XDQvEgoJwOObx at mail.gmail.com>, William Donzelli <wdonzelli at gmail.com> writes: > DEC's terminal business was a shell of its former self back when the > VT420 was introduced, so it may be true. Maybe I'm thinking of the 240 instead? Does the 420 do graphics? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com/the-direct3d-graphics-pipeline/> Legalize Adulthood! <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com> From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Thu Aug 12 21:40:57 2010 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2010 21:40:57 -0500 Subject: Iomega Bernoulli Box 20+20 (A220H) In-Reply-To: <20100810101619.45753o01sx0vgask@webmail.brutman.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20100701171352.0ba34848@localhost>, <4C390EC0.5090003@brutman.com>, <4C5DD05D.9090906@brutman.com> <4C5D7B36.29751.2067603@cclist.sydex.com> <4C60E340.7090604@brutman.com> <4C60EB23.6000204@neurotica.com> <4C6158B0.9070804@brutman.com> <4C617EDD.8080106@neurotica.com> <20100810101619.45753o01sx0vgask@webmail.brutman.com> Message-ID: <4C64B0B9.7010405@brutman.com> Ok, some small progress. The 5.25" Bernoulli Box II (20MB) is working. I have a newer set of software (RCD v4.7), DOS 2.1, and the Iomega PC2B-50 interface card all running in an XT. My previous problem is that the newer drive didn't like the older Iomega software I was using. As an aside, the newer version of the software doesn't work under DOS 5. I think they claim to support only DOS 2.x and 3.x. I'm in the market for any newer version of the Iomega software for a Bernoulli box is somebody has a it stashed somewhere. The newer software looks like it works with the older 8" drives - the diagnostic program recognizes the drive. But my 10MB carts are not recognized by the drive - it spins them up, and then spins them down. All of the Iomega software reports that the drive is not ready. This is baffling to me because under Linux they were spinning up and staying online. (I'll have to move back to a Linux box again to verify that nothing has broken.) That box really needs a 20MB cartridge to prove that it works. But it's close. If anybody wants the RCD v4.7 drivers give me a shout off-list. Regards, Mike From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Aug 12 23:21:31 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2010 00:21:31 -0400 Subject: Yet another food fight? (was RE: GET LAMP is here) In-Reply-To: <E1OjjFV-0002op-Df@shell.xmission.com> References: <E1OjjFV-0002op-Df@shell.xmission.com> Message-ID: <4C64C84B.4070000@neurotica.com> On 8/12/10 9:39 PM, Richard wrote: >> DEC's terminal business was a shell of its former self back when the >> VT420 was introduced, so it may be true. > > Maybe I'm thinking of the 240 instead? Does the 420 do graphics? AFAIK the VT420 supports Sixel, but not ReGIS. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Aug 12 23:45:30 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2010 21:45:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: GET LAMP is here In-Reply-To: <20100812163822.S47600@shell.lmi.net> from Fred Cisin at "Aug 12, 10 04:41:07 pm" Message-ID: <201008130445.o7D4jUsq012828@floodgap.com> > > You didn't mention my favorite! STD-BUS. "Simple-to-design". > > I apologize for leaving out a truly important STD. > > "party like it's 1979"? > Hell, yes. The world has reassigned the most prevalent use of STD from > STD-BUS to Sexually Transmitted Diseases. Is THAT an improvement? On the bright side, VDT no longer has such a social stigma. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Furious activity is no substitute for understanding. -- H. H. Williams ----- From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 11 18:20:35 2010 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 16:20:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: NEC parallel to scsi host adapter Message-ID: <239443.94656.qm@web65509.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> part # is CDINT339 it allows you to plug in a SCSI device, and use your (parallel port) printer at the same time. Are drivers required? I remember Mike Brutman had one or something similar. He used it to drive a zip drive on a Peanut IIRC. Can anyone inform? Thank you kindly. The possibilities this item opens up are truly infinite. I can barely contain myself. From chrise at pobox.com Thu Aug 12 08:07:56 2010 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2010 08:07:56 -0500 Subject: GET LAMP is here In-Reply-To: <20100811145039.G1024@shell.lmi.net> References: <mailman.9.1281551753.1006.cctalk@classiccmp.org> <11EED621D12E4C02BCA581B1A706B6F5@vl420mt> <20100811145039.G1024@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20100812130756.GA21789@n0jcf.net> On Wednesday (08/11/2010 at 03:02PM -0700), Fred Cisin wrote: > > My current needs are simple, and I can get XP to do them quite adequately. > Which is good, because I spend a lot of time on machines owned by the > college, and I am not authorized to make any of the changes that I would > like. Right there's the problem-- that part about "not authorized". That's what makes MICROS~1 stuff and all the people and infrastructure behind it and around it a crime against humanity. These WERE, after all, personal computers. The OS itself is tolerable but the mindset that goes with the IT departments that deploy it-- this Nazi'esk, total control of everything, you must beg us to do anything-- way of operating is intolerable. Every organization I have been in, where MICROS~1 is _the_ choice, operates this way... and everyone from the CEO on down ends up a slave to the IT department. They decide when you will work and when you will not. They decide what your tools will be and how you will use them. They decide what is good enough for you and screw you if you want something a little different. You cannot go outside this tiny little box else you might cause IT to have to do some thinking and a little work. Does MICROS~1 offer special training that turns otherwise normal human beings into these kind of people? -- Chris Elmquist From csquared3 at tx.rr.com Thu Aug 12 16:31:47 2010 From: csquared3 at tx.rr.com (Charlie Carothers) Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2010 16:31:47 -0500 Subject: OT - sort of In-Reply-To: <m1OjcRc-000J3uC@p850ug1> References: <m1OjcRc-000J3uC@p850ug1> Message-ID: <4C646843.5090202@tx.rr.com> Tony Duell wrote: >> it up to explore the insides at all - yet. On the bottom next to the >> list of games are copyright dates from 1960 to 1983, the best I can > > I wonder what the copyright from 1960 covers? <snip> > -tony > I don't recall, and my daughter took it back home with her. I'll ask her to look tonight and see what she finds. I might have misread the number as it is sort of engraved/melted into black plastic, and the text is the same color as the background. It is rather small too and not very easy to read. BTW, the batteries ran down while it was here and they are 4 AA's. Later, Charlie C. From csquared3 at tx.rr.com Thu Aug 12 21:43:58 2010 From: csquared3 at tx.rr.com (Charlie Carothers) Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2010 21:43:58 -0500 Subject: OT - sort of In-Reply-To: <m1OjcRc-000J3uC@p850ug1> References: <m1OjcRc-000J3uC@p850ug1> Message-ID: <4C64B16E.4030905@tx.rr.com> Tony Duell wrote: > I wonder what the copyright from 1960 covers? <snip> > > -tony > My bad! The combination of poor quality text and my 71 year old eyes did me in again. :-) My daughter says if you turn it "just so" the Ms. Pac-Man copyright date does look like 1960, but it is actually 1980. Yep, that makes a lot more sense. In 1960 I suppose about the only thing to play a computer game on would have been either a mini or a mainframe - actually I think it would have had to be a mainframe. Based on a *very* quick web search, the first PDP-8 shipped in 1964, so if that was the first mini... Some might say the IBM 1620, introduced in 1959, was a mini but I think that is a stretch. Just for completeness, here are all the copyright dates as best my daughter can read them: Ms. Pac-Man 1980 Galaga 1981 Pole Position 1982 Mappy 1983 Xavious 1982 Later, Charlie C. From jpeterson at chinalake.com Thu Aug 12 22:54:08 2010 From: jpeterson at chinalake.com (J. Peterson) Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2010 23:54:08 -0400 Subject: AS/400e 9401-150 server needs a home - metro west Boston, MA Message-ID: <4C64C1E0.8030801@chinalake.com> Not really classic in this model, however: I have an AS/400e 9401-150 server and associated hardware that needs a new home. I obtained it last year and do not have the bandwidth to do anything with it. I have not powered the server up, but I was told it works. The front appears to have taken a hit in the lower left (dented grate behind and screw mount snapped--reglued) and the face shows some scrapes. The back half-round cover is missing. I believe the previous owner obtained it 2nd hand for dev work. 2-32 meg mem modules, 2-4.x gig drives (59H7001) se scsi, CD, QIC 4/8 DL SLR5 tape drive, 90H9241 twinax card. IBM 3477 InfoWindow terminal w/ 122 key kb. Found that the power button needs to be pressed down a bit when released (for ON) to have it catch. IBM 3197 terminal sans keyboard--never got it. Term powers up with 0A00 and 'k' on the bottom center. Two lexmark 4028 AS1 laser printers. I have a note on one from last year that the pickup roller is toast. The other says OK, but I will check again. Box of cables. Mostly T adapters or 9 and 15 pin D-subs, one twinax cable, one MAU (really), two terms, one 8-port fan-out (21F5093), and second 8-port fanout (mod# ?), plus a few baluns and odd pieces. There are plenty of Ts, but you will probably need more cable to hook up more than one or two devices. A few misc docs. CD/Floppies: V4 OS, Client Access for 95/NT, LanStreamer PCI diags Images: www.flickr.com/photos/31439100 at N05/sets/72157624713623016/ I don't want to part it out if I can help it--goes as one group. I'll keep the printer with the toasted roller for parts if it isn't wanted. Metro-west Boston, MA. Pick-up, or I'll deliver inside the 495 area on my schedule. I will store for a while, if you are really going to collect it, or relay it. --Jim jtp at chinalake.com From IanK at vulcan.com Fri Aug 13 01:09:31 2010 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2010 23:09:31 -0700 Subject: GET LAMP is here In-Reply-To: <20100812130756.GA21789@n0jcf.net> References: <mailman.9.1281551753.1006.cctalk@classiccmp.org> <11EED621D12E4C02BCA581B1A706B6F5@vl420mt> <20100811145039.G1024@shell.lmi.net>, <20100812130756.GA21789@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <FF6AB92D97A23A409701CDBF66F03FCD03DC3D189C@505fuji> You've never worked in a mainframe shop, have you? I'm not defending Microsoft, but neither they nor their products created the sort of approach you're describing. I remember having to get all sorts of special authorization to access the scratch environment on our Amdahl. Then I developed a process that saved the company hundreds of thousands of dollars a year (real dollars, paid to outside vendors) - not that I ever received any reward for that. In fact, I got chewed out - gently - for going outside my job description. I sympathize with people who just want to use better tools than those prescribed by the IT department, but I also sympathize with an IT department that has to spend endless hours helping people who don't really know what they're doing but insist on non-standard configurations. -- Ian ________________________________________ From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chris Elmquist [chrise at pobox.com] Sent: Thursday, August 12, 2010 6:07 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only Cc: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: GET LAMP is here On Wednesday (08/11/2010 at 03:02PM -0700), Fred Cisin wrote: > > My current needs are simple, and I can get XP to do them quite adequately. > Which is good, because I spend a lot of time on machines owned by the > college, and I am not authorized to make any of the changes that I would > like. Right there's the problem-- that part about "not authorized". That's what makes MICROS~1 stuff and all the people and infrastructure behind it and around it a crime against humanity. These WERE, after all, personal computers. The OS itself is tolerable but the mindset that goes with the IT departments that deploy it-- this Nazi'esk, total control of everything, you must beg us to do anything-- way of operating is intolerable. Every organization I have been in, where MICROS~1 is _the_ choice, operates this way... and everyone from the CEO on down ends up a slave to the IT department. They decide when you will work and when you will not. They decide what your tools will be and how you will use them. They decide what is good enough for you and screw you if you want something a little different. You cannot go outside this tiny little box else you might cause IT to have to do some thinking and a little work. Does MICROS~1 offer special training that turns otherwise normal human beings into these kind of people? -- Chris Elmquist From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Fri Aug 13 01:54:41 2010 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2010 08:54:41 +0200 Subject: SparcBook Tadpole In-Reply-To: <m1Ojcv3-000J43C@p850ug1> References: <20100811215935.788e4ce4.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <m1Ojcv3-000J43C@p850ug1> Message-ID: <20100813085441.dc1751b1.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Thu, 12 Aug 2010 19:54:21 +0100 (BST) ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > What is the battery? A lithium coin cell? Yes. > Having had all sorts of batteries leak over the years, I would be happer > if you could repmve the old battery (even if it makes a mess of the top > of the package. Is that possible? I never had problems with leaking lithium coin cells. You can remove the battery by cutting the top of the chip. But be carefull, the other half of the top contains the oszilator crystal of the RTC. I don't like to remove the battery because it weakens the top of the chip mechanicaly. (Though, you could fix the remaining part of the top with the crystal by putting some resin on it.) -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From pete at dunnington.plus.com Fri Aug 13 02:18:21 2010 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2010 08:18:21 +0100 Subject: Pronouncing acronyms (was Re: DEC acronyms) In-Reply-To: <20100812164244.S47600@shell.lmi.net> References: <m1Ojcnr-000J3xC@p850ug1> <4C646B84.2090607@dunnington.plus.com> <20100812164244.S47600@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4C64F1BD.4030703@dunnington.plus.com> On 13/08/2010 00:45, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Thu, 12 Aug 2010, Pete Turnbull wrote: >> In fact the last thing I recall him getting het up about re threads >> was that he believes only special lubricants should be allowed near a >> lens, and that what's suitably for a focussing screw wouldn't be the >> same thing you'd want on the diaphragm. > > Can ANYBODY disagree with THAT??? In a sane universe? But this was in a thread which included someone suggesting -- or maybe asking if -- a grease would be good simply because it was "food grade". Sure, if it's for an edible camera. Chuck suggested some research would turn up a list of appropriate attributes but refused to name any products, and that was deemed unhelpful. The way he did it set a few people off. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From nico at farumdata.dk Fri Aug 13 02:46:18 2010 From: nico at farumdata.dk (Nico de Jong) Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2010 09:46:18 +0200 Subject: NEC parallel to scsi host adapter References: <239443.94656.qm@web65509.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <7962445A8A844830A832D0AE61CED281@udvikling> > part # is CDINT339 > > it allows you to plug in a SCSI device, and use your (parallel port) > printer at the same time. > > Are drivers required? I remember Mike Brutman had one or something > similar. He used it to drive a zip drive on a Peanut IIRC. > > Can anyone inform? Thank you kindly. > I have two comparable converters just in front of me. One is called Shark, and the other one Shuttle Both NOS. I'll dig a bit deeper into the boxes when I've had my breakfast. Both are for sale. Nico From nico at farumdata.dk Fri Aug 13 03:39:53 2010 From: nico at farumdata.dk (Nico de Jong) Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2010 10:39:53 +0200 Subject: NEC parallel to scsi host adapter References: <239443.94656.qm@web65509.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <DA21DABD793A4C7F990B59D4FA1AF99D@udvikling> > part # is CDINT339 > > it allows you to plug in a SCSI device, and use your (parallel port) > printer at the same time. > "Shuttle" from Shuttle Techonology for DOS, OS/2, Netware and Windows (NT) Printer pass-throughj Powered from SCSI device or 5V supply converts printer port to 50 pin SCSI (Centronics type) The driver is version 4.27, "Shark" for DOS and OS/2 Printer Pass-through Includes Corel SCSI This one draws power from the keyboard (PS/2 type connector) converts printer port to 50 pin SCSI (Centronics type) Both have been used once, for connection to an Archive 6150 drive, and a Tandberg 3820. No problems. Both are from the mid 90's Nico From quapla at xs4all.nl Fri Aug 13 04:53:17 2010 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (E. Groenenberg) Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2010 11:53:17 +0200 Subject: Possible OT: not your normal price for an old dry cell Message-ID: <7fbb057407151a99163563e118208818.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> For those who want to have a laugh ebay item 300449402961 I'm still wondering if it is a type or not. Ed -- Dit is een HTML vrije email / This is an HTML free email. From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri Aug 13 08:27:08 2010 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2010 06:27:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: GET LAMP is here In-Reply-To: <20100812130756.GA21789@n0jcf.net> References: <mailman.9.1281551753.1006.cctalk@classiccmp.org> <11EED621D12E4C02BCA581B1A706B6F5@vl420mt> <20100811145039.G1024@shell.lmi.net> <20100812130756.GA21789@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.00.1008130619240.12050@grumble.deltasoft.com> On Thu, 12 Aug 2010, Chris Elmquist wrote: > box else you might cause IT to have to do some thinking and a little work. > > Does MICROS~1 offer special training that turns otherwise normal human > beings into these kind of people? Since I'm part of an IT department that locks things down, I can tell you it's basically self-defense. Malware people just _love_ windows. The best defense against it is to keep the hamsters from running every little gew-gaw they can get their sticky little fingers on. Even then you have to worry about drive-by attacks via banner ads in "safe" sites. Even though it's not my baliwick to deal with this stuff (I'm a Pick geek), I would much rather see boxen locked down than spend 90% of my time scrubbing machines from the latest malware infection. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri Aug 13 08:33:03 2010 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2010 06:33:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: GET LAMP is here In-Reply-To: <FF6AB92D97A23A409701CDBF66F03FCD03DC3D189C@505fuji> References: <mailman.9.1281551753.1006.cctalk@classiccmp.org> <11EED621D12E4C02BCA581B1A706B6F5@vl420mt> <20100811145039.G1024@shell.lmi.net>, <20100812130756.GA21789@n0jcf.net> <FF6AB92D97A23A409701CDBF66F03FCD03DC3D189C@505fuji> Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.00.1008130629260.12050@grumble.deltasoft.com> On Thu, 12 Aug 2010, Ian King wrote: > You've never worked in a mainframe shop, have you? I'm not defending > Microsoft, but neither they nor their products created the sort of > approach you're describing. > > I remember having to get all sorts of special authorization to access > the scratch environment on our Amdahl. Then I developed a process that > saved the company hundreds of thousands of dollars a year (real dollars, > paid to outside vendors) - not that I ever received any reward for that. > In fact, I got chewed out - gently - for going outside my job > description. > ..that reminds me of something else that makes it even worse. SOX compliance. If I had a time machine that I could only use a single time, I'd use it to go back in time and kill the CEOs of Enron, Worldcom, Tyco , Peregrine Systems and Adelphia as children. You haven't experienced soul-crushing asshattery of epic scales until you've been told to become "sox compliant". g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From legalize at xmission.com Fri Aug 13 09:07:06 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2010 08:07:06 -0600 Subject: GET LAMP is here In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 12 Aug 2010 08:07:56 -0500. <20100812130756.GA21789@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <E1OjuuY-0001wv-4s@shell.xmission.com> In article <20100812130756.GA21789 at n0jcf.net>, Chris Elmquist <chrise at pobox.com> writes: > The OS itself is tolerable but the mindset that goes with the IT > departments that deploy it-- this Nazi'esk, total control of everything, > you must beg us to do anything-- way of operating is intolerable. You mean things like: - limiting how much CPU time you can get per month - limiting what commands are available to you - limiting your network access - limiting your disk space - limiting the hours when you can logon - limiting the hours when you can run certain programs Oh wait, those are all the things that were done on vintage computing environments, sorry. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com/the-direct3d-graphics-pipeline/> Legalize Adulthood! <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com> From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Aug 13 09:22:04 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2010 07:22:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [gopher] OT: Anyone interested in text editor programming? (fwd) Message-ID: <201008131422.o7DEM4qL017766@floodgap.com> I figured some people on this list would want to play with this. >From the gopher-project mailing list. ----- Forwarded message from N. Theodore Matavka ----- From: "N. Theodore Matavka" <... at gmail.com> To: gopher-project at lists.alioth.debian.org Subject: [gopher] OT: Anyone interested in text editor programming? Hello, world! I know this is a Gopher mailing list, but I know that there are some budding developers among you. Recently, I have rescued some software from the bit bucket, and I am asking, if it is not too much, if there are any among you interested in bringing a great old editor back to the forefront. I am talking about TECO: the famously cryptic Text Editor and Corrector, now made far less cryptic due to the addition of a GUI. If you have ever done any amount of work on HP or DEC minis, you must know what I'm talking about. If not, here's a quick rundown: TECO was the first-ever programmer's editor to be written, in the tradition of vi and emacs. In fact, emacs is a direct descendant of TECO, having originally been called Editor Macros. It is included as system standard on all manner of VAXen and PDP-10s. Its one main drawback was that the buffer of text that was being worked on was not visible except on-demand, and one could completely mangle a document with just a few keystrokes, until someone managed to write a version of TECO that displayed the text buffer all the time. Video TECO is an attempt to re-create this great old editor in a version that any Tom, Dick, or Harry would understand. It was written by Paul Cantrell ten years ago; the files had been lost, until I discovered a snapshot of the source hiding in my e-mail inbox. I've even found a patch to make it run on Linux. So I've re-released it under the Sleepycat Licence, and I am currently enlisting developers to help me add new features and squash bugs. I've got plenty of documentation from DEC and HP as to how to work this editor; I've been using it for quite a while in its old version, and would surely appreciate video TECO. A version of video TECO already exists on VAX, and it is only by luck that I managed to find this version for PC. I have just put the files on SourceForge, and they are available at: https://sourceforge.net/projects/newteco/. Please assist me in this great endeavour. Cordially, Nick Matavka. _______________________________________________ Gopher-Project mailing list Gopher-Project at lists.alioth.debian.org http://lists.alioth.debian.org/mailman/listinfo/gopher-project ----- End of forwarded message from N. Theodore Matavka ----- -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- There are 10 kinds of people: those who read binary, and those who don't. -- From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Fri Aug 13 09:30:40 2010 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2010 09:30:40 -0500 Subject: GET LAMP is here In-Reply-To: <Pine.NEB.4.64.1008112151580.9112@otaku.freeshell.org> References: <m1OjFLg-000J3xC@p850ug1> <20100811134041.A1024@shell.lmi.net> <Pine.NEB.4.64.1008112151580.9112@otaku.freeshell.org> Message-ID: <4C655710.2050904@gmail.com> Alexey Toptygin wrote: > On Wed, 11 Aug 2010, Fred Cisin wrote: >> Surely a graphical browser, (if NOT done in a High Level Language) could >> be written to run on a 5150 with CGA. > > I don't know about that... Google is not what I'd call a > graphics-intensive site, but a single page of results is 64k html, and > about as much again in images. You can eat up 640k real fast that way, > and that doesn't include any of the code you need for a TCP/IP stack, > stub DNS resolver, parsing HTML (and let's not forget the memory cost of > intermediate representations, unless you want to pay for a full reparse > every time there's an exposure event) applying CSS, layout, rendering > any number of image formats, input handling, forms, cookies... Let's not > even think about supporting ECMA script, without which you won't be able > to use any web 2.0 sites, and I shudder to think of what you'd have to > do to try to run flash on an on-topic machine. Now you have me thinking about how fun it'd be to try if you hada few 5150s... maybe one for the network stack, one for display, and one for intermediate processing, all linked together via some homebrew parallel link :-) From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Aug 13 09:27:20 2010 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2010 07:27:20 -0700 Subject: Possible OT: not your normal price for an old dry cell In-Reply-To: <7fbb057407151a99163563e118208818.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> References: <7fbb057407151a99163563e118208818.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <p06240807c88b06a54131@[192.168.1.199]> At 11:53 AM +0200 8/13/10, E. Groenenberg wrote: >For those who want to have a laugh > >ebay item 300449402961 > >I'm still wondering if it is a type or not. My fear is that the price is not a typo, but what will really scare me is if someone buys it for that price! Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | From rivie at ridgenet.net Fri Aug 13 10:23:40 2010 From: rivie at ridgenet.net (Roger Ivie) Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2010 08:23:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [gopher] OT: Anyone interested in text editor programming? (fwd) In-Reply-To: <201008131422.o7DEM4qL017766@floodgap.com> References: <201008131422.o7DEM4qL017766@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <Pine.NEB.4.63.1008130816380.4196@stench.no.domain> On Fri, 13 Aug 2010, Cameron Kaiser wrote: e Video TECO is an attempt to re-create this great old editor in a > version that any Tom, Dick, or Harry would understand. It was written > by Paul Cantrell ten years ago; the files had been lost, until I > discovered a snapshot of the source hiding in my e-mail inbox. I've > even found a patch to make it run on Linux. So I've re-released it > under the Sleepycat Licence, and I am currently enlisting developers > to help me add new features and squash bugs. Hmm. I have a copy of it sitting here on my NetBSD box. Here's a snippet of the RELEASE_NOTES file: ---------------------------- revision 4.69 date: 1994/09/20 09:24:12; author: paul; state: Exp; lines: +26 -5 Added some different handling for magic cookie terminals for Sander van Malssen, as well as fixing an array length bug found by Mark Henderson. Also, added definitions for LINUX and SOLARIS. ---------------------------- I don't have a linux box, so I haven't tried building it for linux. Building it for bsd gives me a few warnings, but it seems to work. Didn't know anyone was looking for it. When I went looking for it a few years ago, I had to reach really far back in my personal archives of old CDs to find a copy. -- roger ivie rivie at ridgenet.net From cclist at sydex.com Fri Aug 13 11:38:53 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2010 09:38:53 -0700 Subject: NEC parallel to scsi host adapter In-Reply-To: <DA21DABD793A4C7F990B59D4FA1AF99D@udvikling> References: <239443.94656.qm@web65509.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>, <DA21DABD793A4C7F990B59D4FA1AF99D@udvikling> Message-ID: <4C6512AD.28994.1F1A47@cclist.sydex.com> On 13 Aug 2010 at 10:39, Nico de Jong wrote: > "Shark" > for DOS and OS/2 > Printer Pass-through > Includes Corel SCSI > This one draws power from the keyboard (PS/2 type connector) > converts printer port to 50 pin SCSI (Centronics type) If I had to guess, I'd venture that NEC used the Trantor T348 or T358 adapter, which Adaptec dutifully renamed the MA348 and MA358. My reasoning is that NEC was distributing their external CD-ROM drives with Trantor ISA cards (T160?) and probably stayed with the same vendor. The drive mechanisms were the same used in their early audio players-- they had the "push a button and the top swings open" setup. --Chuck From legalize at xmission.com Fri Aug 13 11:50:08 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2010 10:50:08 -0600 Subject: GET LAMP is here In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 13 Aug 2010 09:30:40 -0500. <4C655710.2050904@gmail.com> Message-ID: <E1OjxSK-0003k2-AW@shell.xmission.com> In article <4C655710.2050904 at gmail.com>, Jules Richardson <jules.richardson99 at gmail.com> writes: > Now you have me thinking about how fun it'd be to try if you hada few > 5150s... maybe one for the network stack, one for display, and one for > intermediate processing, all linked together via some homebrew parallel link :-) The easier approach IMO is to treat the 5150 as a smart terminal and put all the web browser smarts on another machine. The 5150 interacts with the browser through a serial port connection. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com/the-direct3d-graphics-pipeline/> Legalize Adulthood! <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com> From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Aug 13 13:20:24 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2010 14:20:24 -0400 Subject: Yet another food fight? (was RE: GET LAMP is here) In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikjYnuiYyAUE2Hm1sycCxXbdtPh6_4fR4R--_b+@mail.gmail.com> References: <m1OiZIF-000J48C@p850ug1> <20100809163517.M21499@shell.lmi.net> <4C60E2D8.4040301@jetnet.ab.ca> <20100809223554.N21499@shell.lmi.net> <022a01cb389c$6fa0e4a0$9201a8c0@portajara> <AANLkTimK9xyQjg2CMwqJ-w+ibQ61c-mOyBbDkdv-R-Ms@mail.gmail.com> <20100810195908.GA365@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> <4C61B202.1050403@neurotica.com> <20100810225432.GC365@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> <AANLkTi=vm4rJgjY0ZYS66d15Hkfv1ydJVm=JscM9LpQq@mail.gmail.com> <20100811070249.GA24723@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> <AANLkTikZKZ+VTamzirV=syG-9uDYh8ozUH_kSJQV=W-o@mail.gmail.com> <FF6AB92D97A23A409701CDBF66F03FCD03DC3E6E9C@505fuji> <AANLkTikdzVr2M-EEhrvuMaOvyEt4xL_Nf+BPGvkksHoU@mail.gmail.com> <4C63693E.8080801@neurotica.com> <FF6AB92D97A23A409701CDBF66F03FCD03DC3E6EAC@505fuji> <4C64469A.6050000@neurotica.com> <4C644BAC.4010707@gmail.com> <AANLkTikjYnuiYyAUE2Hm1sycCxXbdtPh6_4fR4R--_b+@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4C658CE8.7060508@neurotica.com> On 8/12/10 3:34 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >> I mostly use my two VT340s nowadays (thanks, Dave), but I have to say my >> favorite ASCII RS-232 serial terminal is the IBM 3153. Excellent keyboards. >> Can't say the same for the LK201 or LK401. > > Yes, those 315x terminals are nice. Especially the ones with keyboards > that actually fit inside a rack. > > I do not like the VT420 due to MMJ, the relatively low reliability, > and that CRAP power switch on the front. The keyboards are nothing to > write home about either, but DEC keyboards rarely are. I have to agree about the power switch design, it sucks. I'm accustomed to LK201s so I don't mind them so much, but I can see how people would dislike them, especially due to the placement of the control key. The MMJ, though...I don't see that as a big limitation. MMJ cables are readily available, as are crimp tools and connectors. I guess in my mostly DEC-centric world MMJs are so common that I don't really have a problem with them. Of course standard DB25s would have been a better design choice though. And let's hear it for keyboards that fit between the posts of a rack! The world needs more of those. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Fri Aug 13 12:29:28 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2010 14:29:28 -0300 Subject: GET LAMP is here References: <mailman.9.1281551753.1006.cctalk@classiccmp.org><11EED621D12E4C02BCA581B1A706B6F5@vl420mt><20100811145039.G1024@shell.lmi.net>, <20100812130756.GA21789@n0jcf.net> <FF6AB92D97A23A409701CDBF66F03FCD03DC3D189C@505fuji> Message-ID: <0d2801cb3b14$aea4ed20$9201a8c0@portajara> >I sympathize with people who just want to use better tools than those >prescribed by the IT department, but I also sympathize with an >IT >department that has to spend endless hours helping people who don't really >know what they're doing but insist on non-standard >configurations. -- Ian LMAO!!! :oD From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Aug 13 13:02:06 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2010 19:02:06 +0100 (BST) Subject: Pronouncing acronyms (was Re: DEC acronyms) In-Reply-To: <4C646B84.2090607@dunnington.plus.com> from "Pete Turnbull" at Aug 12, 10 10:45:40 pm Message-ID: <m1Ojya6-000J3xC@p850ug1> > >> Concerning dismantling lenses in order to clean helicoids, diaphragm > >> blades etc. you might be interested in Chuck Cole's opinions as > >> expressed in the ManualMinoltaFree Yahoo group. Somehow I imagine you > >> might disagree with him, or else you might explain your method of > >> dealing with the issues he feels so strongly about... > > > > Well, if he's suggesting spaying soemthing into the lens (yes, I have > > seen that suggested!), I certainly disapprove. If he;'s suggesting > > removing the optical elemenets and applyuing solvent/lubricantmix to the > > mount, then that's slightly better, but IMHO that's a method used by > > people who can't handle tools and small parts properly, and if you're not > > careful, it simply shifts the gummy lubricant, etc, elsewhere where it > > will cause toruble lateer. I really do prefer to clean each part separately. > > Chuck is also a regular contributor to the camera-fix group, and some > might describe him as, hmm, assertive perhaps, occasionally abrasive > maybe, and I've even seen someone describe him as arrogant. His > attitude to cleaning focussing mechanisms would certainly not involve > any aerosol, and lubricant (of a petrochemical variety at least) > wouldn't be part of his vocabulary in the context of an iris diaphragm! I thought somebody said I'd _disagree_ with him. So far I can see nothing to complain about. Oil is bad new on diaphragm blades, it causes htem to stick. They should be dry -- the only lubricant I would consider using would be graphite, and tht shouldn't be necessary. If a diaphragm is sluggish, it's normally becuaseit has lubricant, not because it;s lacking lubricant. > In fact the last thing I recall him getting het up about re threads > was that he believes only special lubricants should be allowed near a > lens, and that what's suitably for a focussing screw wouldn't be the I wouldn't go that far. I think the generic focusing grease avaiable from, say, MicroTools would be OK on most lens helical threads. Actualy, I've used normal high melting point grease there with no problems. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Aug 13 13:04:09 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2010 19:04:09 +0100 (BST) Subject: EPROM programming (27c160's) In-Reply-To: <06e901cb3a6c$e4fc4c90$9201a8c0@portajara> from "Alexandre Souza - Listas" at Aug 12, 10 07:05:15 pm Message-ID: <m1Ojyc4-000J3yC@p850ug1> > > > WILLEM!!! The specs and source code are still avaiable on the net :) Specs anmd source code for _what_? For EPROM programming, I am not suprised. But for programming _all_ manufacturers PALs or GALs or fusilble-link PROMs, I am amazed. Do you have the URL to hand? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Aug 13 13:10:30 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2010 19:10:30 +0100 (BST) Subject: GET LAMP is here In-Reply-To: <20100812152308.Q47600@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Aug 12, 10 03:42:29 pm Message-ID: <m1OjyiE-000J43C@p850ug1> > > On Thu, 12 Aug 2010, Tony Duell wrote: > > > Surely a graphical browser, (if NOT done in a High Level Language) could > > > be written to run on a 5150 with CGA. > > I think most graphical web pages would be pretty much useless at 320*200 > > in 4 pre-chosen colours... > > More useless than they are on this POS with VGA? You are running POS (or P/OS) on a machine with a VGA display? (Sorry, couldn't resist)... I can't comment... I've nto seen your machine. But considering much of the web does seem to be useless, I doubt it matters what displays it. > > > > IIRC the origianl 5150 couldn't take a hard disk. > > Could be done, using a floppy boot disk with certain startup code. > Did any of them use the "extra" ROM socket on the 5150? > > > So with a maximum, of 640K or RAM > EMS (LIM?) Although MOST expanded memory systems were 16 bit, and written > with 286 code, there WERE 8 bit EMS boards, and 808x software. This started as 'an easy project to make a machine to display graphic web pages'.Doesn;t sound all that easy to me. I think it would eb less work to design the machine (and processor :-)) from scratch... [...] > I saw 8 bit hard drives running on PCs, and even on Apple][, and TRS80 I wonder what an '8 bit ahrd drive' is. A cotnroller with an 8 bit data bus on the host interface? > model 3! I hve one on my Model 4 (same interface as the M3, of course). It's a 3rd party one made by Cumana, who are better known for their floppy drive units for the BBC micro. This hard disk unit contains an ST612 (IIRC), a WD controler board, an SMPSU and a little bus interface (3 or 4 TTL chips). Of course there were also hard disks for the BBC micro. The Acorn one is not too hard to find, the Torch one is very rare in my experience... But this doesn't make displaying graphical web pages any easier, nor does it solve the download time problem -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Aug 13 13:13:31 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2010 19:13:31 +0100 (BST) Subject: GOT LAMP In-Reply-To: <20100812154648.N47600@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Aug 12, 10 03:53:20 pm Message-ID: <m1Ojyl9-000J48C@p850ug1> > > There was some discussion earlier about the nature of the fuel for the > lamp. Although it is explicitly battery operated (see vending machine!), > It was generally assumed not to be a conventional torch/flashlight. I always assumed it was an electrically powered lantern (one game described it as a 'brass lantern' IIRC. In other words electrically identical to a nromal torch/flashlight, but mechancially different. > > Well, a friend knew that I was in need of a better power failure light, > and gave me a lamp. It looks like an ordinary "hurricane lantern". But, > instead of combustion, it has more than a dozen LEDs! The "fuel tank" Colossal Cave and Zork long poredate whtie LEDs :-) > has a door on the bottom for batteries. What appears to be > a liquid fuel tank cap rotates, and is actually an ON/OFF switch and They should have had a little rod coming out the side below the glass part for that, like the wick adjustment on a real huricane lamp. > dimmer control! I'm not used to seeing reasonably smooth dimming with > LEDs. I would assume it varies the mark:space ration of a drive waveform. Have you dismantled it to see what's inside? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Aug 13 13:14:53 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2010 19:14:53 +0100 (BST) Subject: Pronouncing acronyms (was Re: DEC acronyms) In-Reply-To: <20100812164244.S47600@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Aug 12, 10 04:45:00 pm Message-ID: <m1OjymS-000J49C@p850ug1> > > In fact the last thing I recall him getting het up about re threads > > was that he believes only special lubricants should be allowed near a > > lens, and that what's suitably for a focussing screw wouldn't be the > > same thing you'd want on the diaphragm. > > Can ANYBODY disagree with THAT??? Oh, I am sure therre's somebody who disagrees with that. Somebody who owns a lens with a totally stuck diaphragm, of course. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Aug 13 13:16:37 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2010 19:16:37 +0100 (BST) Subject: Yet another food fight? (was RE: GET LAMP is here) In-Reply-To: <E1OjjFV-0002op-Df@shell.xmission.com> from "Richard" at Aug 12, 10 07:39:57 pm Message-ID: <m1Ojyo7-000J4AC@p850ug1> > Maybe I'm thinking of the 240 instead? Does the 420 do graphics? They look totally differnt. The VT240 is a box about half the height of n IBM 5150 PC with a serate mono (VR201) or colour (VR241) monitor. The VT420 is built into the same case that cotnains the CRT. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Aug 13 13:18:48 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2010 19:18:48 +0100 (BST) Subject: OT - sort of In-Reply-To: <4C64B16E.4030905@tx.rr.com> from "Charlie Carothers" at Aug 12, 10 09:43:58 pm Message-ID: <m1OjyqF-000J4CC@p850ug1> > My bad! The combination of poor quality text and my 71 year old eyes > did me in again. :-) My daughter says if you turn it "just so" the Ms. > Pac-Man copyright date does look like 1960, but it is actually 1980. OK, that makes more sense. > Yep, that makes a lot more sense. In 1960 I suppose about the only > thing to play a computer game on would have been either a mini or a > mainframe - actually I think it would have had to be a mainframe. Based > on a *very* quick web search, the first PDP-8 shipped in 1964, so if > that was the first mini... Some might say the IBM 1620, introduced in > 1959, was a mini but I think that is a stretch. THe PDP1 was around in the very early 1960s IIRC. And Spacewar, of course, ran on it. I would class that machine as a mini, but others may not. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Aug 13 13:31:09 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2010 19:31:09 +0100 (BST) Subject: SparcBook Tadpole In-Reply-To: <20100813085441.dc1751b1.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> from "Jochen Kunz" at Aug 13, 10 08:54:41 am Message-ID: <m1Ojz2B-000J4GC@p850ug1> > > On Thu, 12 Aug 2010 19:54:21 +0100 (BST) > ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > > > What is the battery? A lithium coin cell? > Yes. > > > Having had all sorts of batteries leak over the years, I would be happer > > if you could repmve the old battery (even if it makes a mess of the top > > of the package. Is that possible? > I never had problems with leaking lithium coin cells. I can;t rememebr if I have. I've had jsut about every other kind of battery leak, though.. > You can remove the battery by cutting the top of the chip. But be > carefull, the other half of the top contains the oszilator crystal of > the RTC. I don't like to remove the battery because it weakens the top Of course, For the moment I'd forgotten about that xtal. I asusme it's a norm,al 32768Jz one. How are the connections fro the battey and crystal made to the chip itelf? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Aug 13 13:37:33 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2010 19:37:33 +0100 (BST) Subject: GET LAMP is here In-Reply-To: <FF6AB92D97A23A409701CDBF66F03FCD03DC3D189C@505fuji> from "Ian King" at Aug 12, 10 11:09:31 pm Message-ID: <m1Ojz8N-000J4HC@p850ug1> > I sympathize with people who just want to use better tools than those presc= > ribed by the IT department, but I also sympathize with an IT department tha= > t has to spend endless hours helping people who don't really know what they= > 're doing but insist on non-standard configurations. -- Ian=20 There is an attitude that's prevalent over here that if you ware not empluyed to do <foo> or if you don't have a bit of paper saying you can do <foo> then you must be totally clueless about <foo> In this cae, if ytou're not a member of the IT department, then you can't ppossibly know anything about computers. In some cases that may well be true, but somebody employed, say, as oftware developer or an electronic design engineer is likely to have some idea about to configure his PC and what tools he wants to use on it. This is nto a new problem, BTW. I ran into it over 20 years ago when the computer I wished to use as part of dedicated data logging/control system was forbiddend becase the IT depeatment couldn't repair it and coulding get the components to fix it. Poinint out that I was planning on gettign the full service manaul containing scheamtics and that all the components (in the sense that I use the term) were avaiable from RS and/or Farnell didn't help... This was when I discovered that there are plenty of so-called 'hardware support' people who can't follow a simple sxcehmatics and plenty of 'customer support' people in computer companies who's idea of support is to read the manual to you very slowly, mis-pronouncing many of the technical terms. I was not amused... -tony From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Aug 13 13:54:45 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2010 14:54:45 -0400 Subject: SparcBook Tadpole In-Reply-To: <SNT129-W7A87A12CD210EFCB24952A3970@phx.gbl> References: <992230.97947.qm@web52604.mail.re2.yahoo.com>, , , <SNT129-W35920212CCFBCE4CAABE45A3950@phx.gbl>, , , <4C60BEAC.5080609@neurotica.com>, , <SNT129-W61D71C38D99D6E6DB2BFB3A3960@phx.gbl>, , <08fa01cb3967$3f6269a0$9201a8c0@portajara>, , <FF6AB92D97A23A409701CDBF66F03FCD03DC3E6EA0@505fuji>, <SNT129-W11234506A4545FAB51FE17A3960@phx.gbl>, <4C634204.5070500@neurotica.com> <SNT129-W7A87A12CD210EFCB24952A3970@phx.gbl> Message-ID: <4C6594F5.7070308@neurotica.com> On 8/12/10 9:35 AM, dwight elvey wrote: >>> My problem is that I don't know if I can restore the information in it. >>> The early Sparcbooks didn't have openboot. >> >> Under SunOS, you can use the program called "eeprom" to dump out most >> of the important contents. As far as restoring it, I'm not sure about >> that, as I don't know what ROM-based code the very early SPARCbooks use. >> >> One way to do it might be to read it out using an EPROM programmer. >> My Data I/O supports the MK48T02, for example. > > I think I can read it with my programmer. At least with an adapter to make > it think it is a 2716. > I tried the "eeprom" and it didn't work :( > This must be before someon realized it was a good idea. Acording > to the history page I saw, the SparcBook was relatively early in > the history of things. That model of SparcBook is quite old, yes. So the eeprom program isn't present, or it failed to function? It definitely existed in that release of SunOS; it's possible that Tadpole's hardware was incompatible. Their SPARC laptops really didn't start to become very compatible at the hardware level until the "3" series. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Aug 13 13:57:08 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2010 14:57:08 -0400 Subject: SparcBook Tadpole In-Reply-To: <SNT129-W4128DAC677437D7D2F89CAA3970@phx.gbl> References: <992230.97947.qm@web52604.mail.re2.yahoo.com>, , , , <SNT129-W35920212CCFBCE4CAABE45A3950@phx.gbl>, , , , <4C60BEAC.5080609@neurotica.com>, , , <SNT129-W61D71C38D99D6E6DB2BFB3A3960@phx.gbl>, , , <08fa01cb3967$3f6269a0$9201a8c0@portajara>, , , <FF6AB92D97A23A409701CDBF66F03FCD03DC3E6EA0@505fuji>, , <SNT129-W11234506A4545FAB51FE17A3960@phx.gbl>, , <4C634204.5070500@neurotica.com>, <SNT129-W7A87A12CD210EFCB24952A3970@phx.gbl> <SNT129-W4128DAC677437D7D2F89CAA3970@phx.gbl> Message-ID: <4C659584.20706@neurotica.com> On 8/12/10 10:08 AM, dwight elvey wrote: >>> Under SunOS, you can use the program called "eeprom" to dump out most >>> of the important contents. As far as restoring it, I'm not sure about >>> that, as I don't know what ROM-based code the very early SPARCbooks use. >>> >>> One way to do it might be to read it out using an EPROM programmer. >>> My Data I/O supports the MK48T02, for example. >> >> I think I can read it with my programmer. At least with an adapter to make >> it think it is a 2716. >> I tried the "eeprom" and it didn't work :( >> This must be before someon realized it was a good idea. Acording >> to the history page I saw, the SparcBook was relatively early in >> the history of things. > > Do you think I could use the program adb with /dev/nvram? > Could I use it to display and or edit the nvram values? If /dev/eeprom or /dev/nvram exists, you may be able to use that. Try to dump the contents via that interface and see if it actually maps to the hardware. You can try "od -x /dev/nvram" to do a hex dump. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Fri Aug 13 14:43:25 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2010 16:43:25 -0300 Subject: EPROM programming (27c160's) References: <m1Ojyc4-000J3yC@p850ug1> Message-ID: <0e8301cb3b22$32eada10$9201a8c0@portajara> http://web.archive.org/web/20080621113020/http://www.willem.org/ I think I still have an image of the old site on my desktop, mail me if you want that ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" <ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk> To: <cctalk at classiccmp.org> Sent: Friday, August 13, 2010 3:04 PM Subject: Re: EPROM programming (27c160's) >> >> >> WILLEM!!! The specs and source code are still avaiable on the net :) > > Specs anmd source code for _what_? > > For EPROM programming, I am not suprised. But for programming _all_ > manufacturers PALs or GALs or fusilble-link PROMs, I am amazed. Do you > have the URL to hand? > > -tony From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Aug 13 15:22:44 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2010 13:22:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: NEC parallel to scsi host adapter In-Reply-To: <DA21DABD793A4C7F990B59D4FA1AF99D@udvikling> References: <239443.94656.qm@web65509.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <DA21DABD793A4C7F990B59D4FA1AF99D@udvikling> Message-ID: <20100813131943.B83233@shell.lmi.net> The early "candy bar" version of the NEC was the same as the Trantor. Yes, there was a set of drivers (ASPI?) Later, they were replaced by circuitry within molded connectors in a cable. Wasn't Trantor absorbed by Adaptec at some point? From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Aug 13 15:30:26 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2010 13:30:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: GET LAMP is here In-Reply-To: <E1OjxSK-0003k2-AW@shell.xmission.com> from Richard at "Aug 13, 10 10:50:08 am" Message-ID: <201008132030.o7DKUQhg014972@floodgap.com> > > Now you have me thinking about how fun it'd be to try if you hada few > > 5150s... maybe one for the network stack, one for display, and one for > > intermediate processing, all linked together via some homebrew parallel > > link :-) > > The easier approach IMO is to treat the 5150 as a smart terminal and > put all the web browser smarts on another machine. The 5150 interacts > with the browser through a serial port connection. I did that for HyperLink 2.5 for the C64. A Perl proxy ran on the other side and distilled down HTML into an intermediate page description language that the C64 displayed. It worked pretty well, but if I did it again, I would have made the page language more SGML-like (it was based on an earlier offline hypermedia package I wrote that I repurposed as a browser). -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Talkers are no good doers. -- Shakespeare ---------------------------------- From pete at dunnington.plus.com Fri Aug 13 15:28:13 2010 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2010 21:28:13 +0100 Subject: Pronouncing acronyms (was Re: DEC acronyms) In-Reply-To: <m1Ojya6-000J3xC@p850ug1> References: <m1Ojya6-000J3xC@p850ug1> Message-ID: <4C65AADD.9050408@dunnington.plus.com> On 13/08/2010 19:02, Tony Duell wrote: >> In fact the last thing I recall him getting het up about re threads >> was that he believes only special lubricants should be allowed near a >> lens, and that what's suitably for a focussing screw wouldn't be the > > I wouldn't go that far. I think the generic focusing grease avaiable > from, say, MicroTools would be OK on most lens helical threads. Actualy, > I've used normal high melting point grease there with no problems. Sure, but you wouldn't use silicone grease (because it creeps) and you'd not use some random grease from the food industry. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Aug 13 15:47:13 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2010 13:47:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: GET LAMP is here In-Reply-To: <m1OjyiE-000J43C@p850ug1> References: <m1OjyiE-000J43C@p850ug1> Message-ID: <20100813134321.K83233@shell.lmi.net> > > More useless than they are on this POS with VGA? On Fri, 13 Aug 2010, Tony Duell wrote: > I can't comment... I've nto seen your machine. But considering much of > the web does seem to be useless, I doubt it matters what displays it. exactly > This started as 'an easy project to make a machine to display graphic web > pages'.Doesn;t sound all that easy to me. I think it would eb less work > to design the machine (and processor :-)) from scratch... "less work"? certainly more fun > > I saw 8 bit hard drives running on PCs, and even on Apple][, and TRS80 > I wonder what an '8 bit ahrd drive' is. A cotnroller with an 8 bit data > bus on the host interface? yes. I knew that you would catch me on that one. What does the 'h' stand for in "ahrd" drive? From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Aug 13 16:08:51 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2010 14:08:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: NEC parallel to scsi host adapter In-Reply-To: <4C6512AD.28994.1F1A47@cclist.sydex.com> References: <239443.94656.qm@web65509.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>, <DA21DABD793A4C7F990B59D4FA1AF99D@udvikling> <4C6512AD.28994.1F1A47@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20100813140535.A83233@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 13 Aug 2010, Chuck Guzis wrote: > If I had to guess, I'd venture that NEC used the Trantor T348 or T358 > adapter, which Adaptec dutifully renamed the MA348 and MA358. earlier, the T338 There were some subtle differences between the "blue label" and "black label" versions Also, they recommended NOT using Apple SCSI cables, due to a difference in the TERMPWR pin > The drive mechanisms were the same used in their early audio players-- > they had the "push a button and the top swings open" setup. and an optional battery pack! From fryers at gmail.com Fri Aug 13 16:14:21 2010 From: fryers at gmail.com (Simon Fryer) Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2010 21:14:21 +0000 Subject: SUN Equipment Available in Cheltenham UK Message-ID: <AANLkTi=984NnYmrNy+n8-ao9HB7zVt8gOL2EhyRGjH2t@mail.gmail.com> G'Day, I am in the process of cleaning out my collection of systems pending a move to Australia. I have the following SUN systems I would like to pass onto collectors: SUN E450 (unsure if it has memory, no disks, I was given a SCSI controller for it but I think the controller is HVD). SUN SPARCstation 2. It has memory (I forget what amount). 2 x 200MB Disks, NVRAM hack with external battery. SUN 411 disk enclosure with disk. I forget what size the disk is. I am also parting out a SUN IPC if anyone wants parts - power supply went (was swapped into a machine that I want to take with me.) I also have a couple of 50 pin SE SCSI HDD with capacities in the range of a couple of hundred MBs. Collect from Cheltenham UK or anywhere I might pass in the UK - which for work means a lot of the UK. I am also happy to ship anything except the E450. Thanks. Simon -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "Well, an engineer is not concerned with the truth; that is left to philosophers and theologians: the prime concern of an engineer is the utility of the final product." Lectures on the Electrical Properties of Materials, L.Solymar, D.Walsh From shumaker at att.net Fri Aug 13 16:18:04 2010 From: shumaker at att.net (steve shumaker) Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2010 17:18:04 -0400 Subject: free pdp stuff in Lima OH Message-ID: <4C65B68C.6060905@att.net> 2 11/44s, some disks and misc looks to be in quite good condition - at least cosmetically FREE to good home according to the ad Craigs List http://limaohio.craigslist.org/sys/1895340054.html steve From fryers at gmail.com Fri Aug 13 16:23:24 2010 From: fryers at gmail.com (Simon Fryer) Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2010 21:23:24 +0000 Subject: CAMAC Crate Available Cheltenham UK Message-ID: <AANLkTinyUXiYziSg+xqQ7BZQ6EDfdX37kk5+xKDFWQ87@mail.gmail.com> G'Day, I have accumulated a CAMAC crate that, despite my best intentions, I am never going to use. I have a whole load of cards for it. If anyone is interested I'll produce a list of cards. The crate and cards have spent some time at CERN and looking at the stickers on it, at other laboratories around the UK. As usual, I am happy to deliver in the UK if it is not too far from where I may be passing - which can be a lot of the UK. Otherwise it is collect from Cheltenham. I may consider posting if anyone is serious enough - weighs well in excess of 20kg, and quite possibly 30+kg. Thanks. Simon -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "Well, an engineer is not concerned with the truth; that is left to philosophers and theologians: the prime concern of an engineer is the utility of the final product." Lectures on the Electrical Properties of Materials, L.Solymar, D.Walsh From cclist at sydex.com Fri Aug 13 17:01:42 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2010 15:01:42 -0700 Subject: NEC parallel to scsi host adapter In-Reply-To: <20100813131943.B83233@shell.lmi.net> References: <239443.94656.qm@web65509.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>, <DA21DABD793A4C7F990B59D4FA1AF99D@udvikling>, <20100813131943.B83233@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4C655E56.23742.146A798@cclist.sydex.com> On 13 Aug 2010 at 13:22, Fred Cisin wrote: > The early "candy bar" version of the NEC was the same as the Trantor. > Yes, there was a set of drivers (ASPI?) > > Later, they were replaced by circuitry within molded connectors in a > cable. > > Wasn't Trantor absorbed by Adaptec at some point? Yup, quite a while back, just before Adaptec bought Future Domain. PMC bought the channel storage business of Adaptec and the Adaptec name in June. So, Adaptec is now "Adaptec by PMC". It's very confusing: http://www.adaptec.com/NR/rdonlyres/3E3E6FD1-ED13-4668-8EF7- 4DD384B3B0B5/0/customer_letter_07202010.pdf Another chapter in the musical chairs of the SCSI business; e.g. NCR- >Symbios->AT&T->Hyundai->LSI Logic. Can't tell the players without a program. If the OP is looking for drivers, I probably have them from the NEC CD-ROM kit. --Chuck From bqt at softjar.se Fri Aug 13 03:12:39 2010 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2010 10:12:39 +0200 Subject: Terminals... In-Reply-To: <mailman.16.1281618930.1006.cctalk@classiccmp.org> References: <mailman.16.1281618930.1006.cctalk@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <4C64FE77.5060906@softjar.se> Dave McGuire <mcguire at neurotica.com> wrote: > On 8/11/10 11:21 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >>> >> Of course, shipping for, say a hundred VT520s is significantly higher than for those modern replacements - even when you add in the (now LCD) screen. Oh that's right, you can just go down to Best Buy (which rarely is) to buy the screens.... >> > >> > I doubt shipping costs would be so much of an issue - VT520s, if they >> > are anything like VT420s, are not very heavy. If company X needs >> > several hundred dumb terminals spread around in their system, I bet >> > they would have enough of their own shipping going on, and the VTs >> > could hang on the sides of the trucks for free. >> > >>> >> That's not to say I don't have a personal preference for the originals - I have mostly VT420s at home, and we're refurbishing a bunch of VT100s and VT52s here at work. -- Ian >> > >> > OK, I will say it - VT420s suck. > > What don't you like about VT420s? They're my favorite of the line, > followed closely by VT320 then VT220. I don't like VT520s at all. I like the VT5xx series, just as I like all other VT-terminals. However, I've had problems with power supplies of VT320, and VT340 terminals, and have had problems with the displays going weak on VT420 terminals. In a way, I think the VT525 is pretty optimal. External screen with VGA connection, so I can use any PC screen, including flat screens. The fact that the VT5xx terminals use a PC keyboard connection sucks some, but I can live with that, since I atleast have proper DEC layout keyboards anyway. And color, in addition to that. The only thing missing is ReGIS and SIXBIT graphics. But, to make a comment on the original topic here - I don't really think that new VT terminals are more expensive than buying a PC. Yes, the initial cost is larger, but I definitely expect a VT520 to last way longer than a PC, and buying two or three PCs, and additionally to have to service, update, install, and work on the machines will make them cost way more than a new VT520 within just a year or two. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From bqt at softjar.se Fri Aug 13 03:27:09 2010 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2010 10:27:09 +0200 Subject: Terminals... In-Reply-To: <mailman.20.1281656478.1006.cctalk@classiccmp.org> References: <mailman.20.1281656478.1006.cctalk@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <4C6501DD.4030309@softjar.se> Dave McGuire <mcguire at neurotica.com> wrote: > Not at all, I just wanted to know what he didn't like about them. The > only thing I dislike about VT420s is the non-removable power cables. Huh? My VT420s have removable power cords... William Donzelli <wdonzelli at gmail.com> wrote: > I do not like the VT420 due to MMJ, the relatively low reliability, > and that CRAP power switch on the front. The keyboards are nothing to > write home about either, but DEC keyboards rarely are. Interesting, how different peoples view can be. The VT420 have both DB25 and MMJ, so I can't see how that could annoy anyone. (As do all DEC terminals from the VT220 onwards.) However, MMJ is actually very nice. Too bad it didn't catch on outside of DEC. But I try to use it for everything I can at home. The power switch I can agree on. I don't fancy that slider. Keyboards... I know people have very different opinions on those, but I think the LK201 and LK402 keyboards are wonderful. I really dislike IBM PC keyboards. Way too long key presses, and to much klickety klack. And all the copies of them are even worse. The VT100 keyboard is not a favorite, though. That one also have too much travel when pressing a key. No, I can't honestly think of a keyboard I like better than the LK201 and LK401. And I really think they layout is way better than what IBM dreamt up. The reliability of the VT420 seems to be pretty decent. I've had many more VT320 fail on me. But we have to remember that we're talking about 20+ year old equipment now... Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From chrise at pobox.com Fri Aug 13 07:32:35 2010 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2010 07:32:35 -0500 Subject: EPROM programming (27c160's) In-Reply-To: <4C633271.3090202@philpem.me.uk> References: <992230.97947.qm@web52604.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008110748020.3268@duo> <4C633271.3090202@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <20100813123235.GA28341@n0jcf.net> On Thursday (08/12/2010 at 12:29AM +0100), Philip Pemberton wrote: > On 11/08/10 12:52, Steven Hirsch wrote: >> I purchased an Andromeda Research AR-32A programming system. Best money >> I ever spent! The base unit covers an enormous number of EPROMs and they >> have adapters for just about anything else imaginable. Best yet: They >> will sell you the bare boards for any of the adapters, provide a >> schematic and let you have at it. >> >> Their tech support is superlative. Very knowledgable folks. >> >> And, yes, the software runs as a DOS application :-). > > I'm still waiting for an EPROM programmer with Linux software available. There's these, http://www.conitec.com/english/pricing.php which not only have Linux host apps to run them... they actually run Linux as the embedded OS in the programmer. > I'm actually tempted to do a GAL/fuse-PROM programmer seeing as my > GALBlast won't work worth a damn on this machine :( The above does PALs and GALs too (at least the most popular 16*8, 20*8 and 22*10 flavors). I don't have one yet... but soon. Chris -- Chris Elmquist From jonas at otter.se Fri Aug 13 14:24:04 2010 From: jonas at otter.se (Jonas Otter) Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2010 19:24:04 +0000 Subject: Pronouncing acronyms (was Re: DEC acronyms) In-Reply-To: <mailman.22.1281677425.1006.cctech@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <cdaNct6Y.1281727444.1848930.jotter@howe.textdrive.com> Sorry about being so unclear, I thought you might be a member of the group in question. Actually, it is quite the opposite, he keeps saying that you shouldn't take a lens apart without having sophisticated equipment to collimate the lens when putting it together again, as well as considerable experience using the equipment, unless you want to have a clean but expensive paperweight. He thinks that if you just put it back together again the optical performance will be terrible. I wouldn't know, I haven't tried. I'm not sure I believe that companies like Minolta who made thousands of lenses wouldn't have worked out a way to make the optical elements self-aligning or something. It sounds like a lot of expense for a manufacturing process for consumer items. Anyway he claims to have years of experience designing stuff for spy satellites or something, however that might relate to commercial camera manufacturing. /Jonas On 8/13/2010, ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > >Well, if he's suggesting spaying soemthing into the lens (yes, I have >seen that suggested!), I certainly disapprove. If he;'s suggesting >removing the optical elemenets and applyuing solvent/lubricantmix to the >mount, then that's slightly better, but IMHO that's a method used by >people who can't handle tools and small parts properly, and if you're not >careful, it simply shifts the gummy lubricant, etc, elsewhere where it >will cause toruble lateer. I really do prefer to clean each part separately. > >-tony > From jonas at otter.se Fri Aug 13 14:35:26 2010 From: jonas at otter.se (Jonas Otter) Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2010 19:35:26 +0000 Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 84, Issue 16 In-Reply-To: <mailman.22.1281677425.1006.cctech@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <MFbkk3qs.1281728126.6972600.jotter@howe.textdrive.com> Use alkaline or silver oxide. Any small error in exposure caused by the difference in voltage is compensated for by the exposure latitude of the film. I had my OM-1 modified with the Schottky diode setup, works perfectly. I believe it would probably work just as well without the diode. And as far as the diode goes, I have heard one person claim that it is entirely pointless because the voltage drop over the diode varies so much with the ambient temperature that the compensating effect is essentially nullified. Don't waste your money on any fancy adapters, or expensive zinc-air batteries either. Alkalines work perfectly well enough. /Jonas On 8/13/2010, somebody and Tony Duell wrote: >> battery: that's a problem with my Minolta SRT series SLRs, where the > >I think that's unlikey. The voltage is not too critical (it needs to be >between 3-ish ance 5V, I think). I have had success using a couple of AA >cells in series (normal 1.5V Duracells) as a replaemeent for a backup >coil cell in some systems. No, they don't last as long (shelf life is >lower), but they are avaialble _anywhere_. > >> excellent TTL metering doesn't work anymore because it was designed to >> be powered by mercury cells that I can't buy anymore. > > >While you can, alas, no longer get mercury batteries, there are plenty of >work-arounds for this. If the STT101 I've just picked up from my pile of >odd cameras is anythign to go by, it takes a single PX13/PX625 cell. >There is an alkaline equivelent that's the same size, but highter >voltage, and I susepct, alas, the Mimnolta meter woudl care about that. >Often connecting a single shottky diode in sereis with the cell will do >the teick, if there's space inside the camera (sorry, I've not pulled the >bottm plate to check), then it's easy to add it. If there isn't space, >then there's a fairly expensive adapterwhich takes a smaller alkanline >cell and includes a series diode. Or you could make soemthing like that. >Or a new battrey cover containing contacts with wires leading to an >external PSU of the right voltage. > From bqt at softjar.se Fri Aug 13 16:51:24 2010 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2010 23:51:24 +0200 Subject: Terminals. In-Reply-To: <mailman.3.1281718803.98986.cctalk@classiccmp.org> References: <mailman.3.1281718803.98986.cctalk@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <4C65BE5C.9020500@softjar.se> Dave McGuire <mcguire at neurotica.com> wrote: > On 8/12/10 9:39 PM, Richard wrote: >>> >> DEC's terminal business was a shell of its former self back when the >>> >> VT420 was introduced, so it may be true. >> > >> > Maybe I'm thinking of the 240 instead? Does the 420 do graphics? > > AFAIK the VT420 supports Sixel, but not ReGIS. No. The last graphic terminal was the VT340. The VT420 don't support any graphics, unless you count the user defined font as graphics. Graphics implies either SIXEL, ReGIS or both. Actually, I've never seen any terminal that supports sixel but not ReGIS, however, several printers is of that inclination. (Although I'm sure someone will now recall some terminal that do sixel but not ReGIS just because I wrote the above... :-) ). Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Aug 13 19:47:07 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2010 20:47:07 -0400 Subject: Terminals... In-Reply-To: <4C6501DD.4030309@softjar.se> References: <mailman.20.1281656478.1006.cctalk@classiccmp.org> <4C6501DD.4030309@softjar.se> Message-ID: <4C65E78B.4090102@neurotica.com> On 8/13/10 4:27 AM, Johnny Billquist wrote: >> Not at all, I just wanted to know what he didn't like about them. The >> only thing I dislike about VT420s is the non-removable power cables. > > Huh? My VT420s have removable power cords... Mine do not. This is interesting. I know there was a variation of the VT320 (yes 320) that had a removable power cord, but they're not terribly common. Apparently there's a removable-cord version of the VT420 as well. Interesting! > The VT420 have both DB25 and MMJ, so I can't see how that could annoy > anyone. (As do all DEC terminals from the VT220 onwards.) Now waitaminute. I am staring at the back of both a VT420 and VT320 right now, on the table opposite my desk. Neither of them have DB25s, only MMJs. The VT420 has what looks like a knock-out that's about the right size for a DB25. Apparently versions with and without DB25s exist as well! That same (rare-to-me) VT320 I mentioned above that has a removable power cord also has a DB25. Out of a few hundred VT320s that have gone through my hands, it's the only one I've ever seen that has either a removable power cord or a DB25. I've never seen a VT420 with either of those, and until now, I haven't even heard of their existence. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Aug 13 19:49:37 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2010 20:49:37 -0400 Subject: Terminals... In-Reply-To: <4C6501DD.4030309@softjar.se> References: <mailman.20.1281656478.1006.cctalk@classiccmp.org> <4C6501DD.4030309@softjar.se> Message-ID: <AANLkTikXTL5SACxgRJBXMNiXAKP9zeFUiUBUXWW_B29P@mail.gmail.com> > Huh? My VT420s have removable power cords... Some do, some do not. > The VT420 have both DB25 and MMJ, Some do, some do not. Of the fifty or so I had recently, I think only one had the DB25 in addition to MMJ. > However, MMJ is actually very nice. Too bad it didn't catch on outside of > DEC. But I try to use it for everything I can at home. MMJ "fixed" a problem that really was no big deal - people confusing RJ45 serial with ethernet. I think the real reason was to lock people into MMJ by doing the old lets-violate-the-standard trick. In my book, DEC is guilty as anyone else here. > No, I can't honestly think of a keyboard I like better than the LK201 and > LK401. Mmmm... > The reliability of the VT420 seems to be pretty decent. I've had many more > VT320 fail on me. But we have to remember that we're talking about 20+ year > old equipment now... Yes, but these were built well towards the end of the monochrome CRT era. -- Will From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Aug 13 19:54:34 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2010 20:54:34 -0400 Subject: Terminals. In-Reply-To: <4C65BE5C.9020500@softjar.se> References: <mailman.3.1281718803.98986.cctalk@classiccmp.org> <4C65BE5C.9020500@softjar.se> Message-ID: <4C65E94A.2050804@neurotica.com> On 8/13/10 5:51 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote: >>>> >> DEC's terminal business was a shell of its former self back when the >>>> >> VT420 was introduced, so it may be true. >>> > > Maybe I'm thinking of the 240 instead? Does the 420 do graphics? >> >> AFAIK the VT420 supports Sixel, but not ReGIS. > > No. The last graphic terminal was the VT340. > The VT420 don't support any graphics, unless you count the user defined > font as graphics. > > Graphics implies either SIXEL, ReGIS or both. Actually, I've never seen > any terminal that supports sixel but not ReGIS, however, several > printers is of that inclination. > > (Although I'm sure someone will now recall some terminal that do sixel > but not ReGIS just because I wrote the above... :-) ). I've never *used* Sixel graphics on a VT420, but the manual clearly states that it supports the Sixel format. (flip flip) Ok, I just went back and re-read it. It "supports Sixel format" as a way to encode user-definable character sets. So you're right I suppose, it ALMOST supports Sixel graphics! ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Aug 13 19:57:07 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2010 20:57:07 -0400 Subject: Terminals... In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikXTL5SACxgRJBXMNiXAKP9zeFUiUBUXWW_B29P@mail.gmail.com> References: <mailman.20.1281656478.1006.cctalk@classiccmp.org> <4C6501DD.4030309@softjar.se> <AANLkTikXTL5SACxgRJBXMNiXAKP9zeFUiUBUXWW_B29P@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4C65E9E3.903@neurotica.com> On 8/13/10 8:49 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >> However, MMJ is actually very nice. Too bad it didn't catch on outside of >> DEC. But I try to use it for everything I can at home. > > MMJ "fixed" a problem that really was no big deal - people confusing > RJ45 serial with ethernet. Huh? I don't see how that can be. The 802.3i standard which defined 10baseT Ethernet on RJ45 connectors came out in 1990, while the first terminal to implement MMJ was the VT320, which predates that by three years. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ploopster at gmail.com Fri Aug 13 22:28:16 2010 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2010 23:28:16 -0400 Subject: Terminals... In-Reply-To: <4C64FE77.5060906@softjar.se> References: <mailman.16.1281618930.1006.cctalk@classiccmp.org> <4C64FE77.5060906@softjar.se> Message-ID: <4C660D50.3050401@gmail.com> Johnny Billquist wrote: > I like the VT5xx series, just as I like all other VT-terminals. However, > I've had problems with power supplies of VT320, and VT340 terminals, and > have had problems with the displays going weak on VT420 terminals. I don't like the VT5xx series (but don't dislike them enough to get rid of mine), because of their changed admin interface vs. the really nice ones of the previous DEC terminals. Peace... Sridhar From geoffr at zipcon.net Fri Aug 13 22:28:45 2010 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoffrey Reed) Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2010 20:28:45 -0700 Subject: EPROM programming (27c160's) In-Reply-To: <0e8301cb3b22$32eada10$9201a8c0@portajara> Message-ID: <C88B5B7D.26B6E%geoffr@zipcon.net> Does anyone know what ever happen to willem? There were all sorts of rumors going around... On 8/13/10 12:43 PM, "Alexandre Souza - Listas" <pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com> wrote: > > http://web.archive.org/web/20080621113020/http://www.willem.org/ > > I think I still have an image of the old site on my desktop, mail me if > you want that > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Tony Duell" <ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk> > To: <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > Sent: Friday, August 13, 2010 3:04 PM > Subject: Re: EPROM programming (27c160's) > > >>> >>> >>> WILLEM!!! The specs and source code are still avaiable on the net :) >> >> Specs anmd source code for _what_? >> >> For EPROM programming, I am not suprised. But for programming _all_ >> manufacturers PALs or GALs or fusilble-link PROMs, I am amazed. Do you >> have the URL to hand? >> >> -tony > > From dave at mitton.com Fri Aug 13 22:46:18 2010 From: dave at mitton.com (Dave Mitton) Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2010 23:46:18 -0400 Subject: Some DEC stuff on Ebay Message-ID: <201008140347.o7E3l1lW057017@billY.EZWIND.NET> FYI: I have listed the following on eBay: Seller name: olebgamer - VT320 Terminal - VT220 Terminal - DECmodem V32 DF-296DA - 2 LK250 Keyboards Dave. From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sat Aug 14 00:16:14 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2010 22:16:14 -0700 Subject: SparcBook Tadpole In-Reply-To: <4C659584.20706@neurotica.com> References: <992230.97947.qm@web52604.mail.re2.yahoo.com>, , , ,,<SNT129-W35920212CCFBCE4CAABE45A3950@phx.gbl>, , , ,,<4C60BEAC.5080609@neurotica.com>, , ,,<SNT129-W61D71C38D99D6E6DB2BFB3A3960@phx.gbl>, , ,,<08fa01cb3967$3f6269a0$9201a8c0@portajara>, , ,,<FF6AB92D97A23A409701CDBF66F03FCD03DC3E6EA0@505fuji>, ,,<SNT129-W11234506A4545FAB51FE17A3960@phx.gbl>, , , <4C634204.5070500@neurotica.com>, , <SNT129-W7A87A12CD210EFCB24952A3970@phx.gbl>, <SNT129-W4128DAC677437D7D2F89CAA3970@phx.gbl>, <4C659584.20706@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <SNT129-W49AA577A71B2FAC59536CCA3990@phx.gbl> > Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2010 14:57:08 -0400 > From: mcguire at neurotica.com > To: > Subject: Re: SparcBook Tadpole > > On 8/12/10 10:08 AM, dwight elvey wrote: > >>> Under SunOS, you can use the program called "eeprom" to dump out most > >>> of the important contents. As far as restoring it, I'm not sure about > >>> that, as I don't know what ROM-based code the very early SPARCbooks use. > >>> > >>> One way to do it might be to read it out using an EPROM programmer. > >>> My Data I/O supports the MK48T02, for example. > >> > >> I think I can read it with my programmer. At least with an adapter to make > >> it think it is a 2716. > >> I tried the "eeprom" and it didn't work :( > >> This must be before someon realized it was a good idea. Acording > >> to the history page I saw, the SparcBook was relatively early in > >> the history of things. > > > > Do you think I could use the program adb with /dev/nvram? > > Could I use it to display and or edit the nvram values? > > If /dev/eeprom or /dev/nvram exists, you may be able to use that. Try > to dump the contents via that interface and see if it actually maps to > the hardware. You can try "od -x /dev/nvram" to do a hex dump. Hi Dave No eeprom command :( I tried the od command. not real interesting. Mostly nul and some ascii strings. Things like /vmunix and RAMDram and stuff. I'd guess it is some of the info extracted from the NVRAM on boot. Dwight From geoffr at zipcon.net Sat Aug 14 01:13:12 2010 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoffrey Reed) Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2010 23:13:12 -0700 Subject: SparcBook Tadpole In-Reply-To: <SNT129-W49AA577A71B2FAC59536CCA3990@phx.gbl> Message-ID: <C88B8208.26BB5%geoffr@zipcon.net> Doesn't it have the OBP, you can also get the contants of the NVRAM or program it using the built in forth On 8/13/10 10:16 PM, "dwight elvey" <dkelvey at hotmail.com> wrote: > > > > >> Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2010 14:57:08 -0400 >> From: mcguire at neurotica.com >> To: >> Subject: Re: SparcBook Tadpole >> >> On 8/12/10 10:08 AM, dwight elvey wrote: >>>>> Under SunOS, you can use the program called "eeprom" to dump out most >>>>> of the important contents. As far as restoring it, I'm not sure about >>>>> that, as I don't know what ROM-based code the very early SPARCbooks use. >>>>> >>>>> One way to do it might be to read it out using an EPROM programmer. >>>>> My Data I/O supports the MK48T02, for example. >>>> >>>> I think I can read it with my programmer. At least with an adapter to make >>>> it think it is a 2716. >>>> I tried the "eeprom" and it didn't work :( >>>> This must be before someon realized it was a good idea. Acording >>>> to the history page I saw, the SparcBook was relatively early in >>>> the history of things. >>> >>> Do you think I could use the program adb with /dev/nvram? >>> Could I use it to display and or edit the nvram values? >> >> If /dev/eeprom or /dev/nvram exists, you may be able to use that. Try >> to dump the contents via that interface and see if it actually maps to >> the hardware. You can try "od -x /dev/nvram" to do a hex dump. > > Hi Dave > No eeprom command :( > I tried the od command. not real interesting. Mostly nul and some ascii > strings. Things like /vmunix and RAMDram and stuff. I'd guess it is > some of the info extracted from the NVRAM on boot. > Dwight > From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Sat Aug 14 02:21:53 2010 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2010 09:21:53 +0200 Subject: SparcBook Tadpole In-Reply-To: <m1Ojz2B-000J4GC@p850ug1> References: <20100813085441.dc1751b1.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <m1Ojz2B-000J4GC@p850ug1> Message-ID: <20100814092153.2b747ca4.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Fri, 13 Aug 2010 19:31:09 +0100 (BST) ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > I asusme it's a norm,al 32768Jz one. Maybe. I don't know. > How are the connections fro the battey and crystal made to the chip itelf? The chip (wide 24 pin DIP) has pins on the short edges. Two between pins 1 and 24 for the XTAL, two between pins 12 and 13 for the battery. These special pins don't come out of the chip. They go up into the top close to the edge. The top is a plasic cap filled with resin. (The chip is turned top-down to pour the resin into the cap.) There is a small gap between the top and the actual chip in the middle of the divice. Only at the edges, where the wires go upward, are covered with resin. So the top is fixed to the chip mostly by the four wires and a bit of resin that coveres the wires at the short edges. That is why I don't like to remove the battery by cutting the top in half. The XTAL part of the top will only be fixed by two wires and a litle bit of resin. To make it machanicaly stable again you would have to glue the dangling XTAL half to the chip again. But why do that extra work and fight with messy glue if you can avoid all of this just by carefull and not so intrusive surgery? -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Sat Aug 14 06:21:13 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2010 08:21:13 -0300 Subject: EPROM programming (27c160's) References: <C88B5B7D.26B6E%geoffr@zipcon.net> Message-ID: <121b01cb3ba4$64db4c80$9201a8c0@portajara> > Does anyone know what ever happen to willem? There were all sorts of > rumors > going around... Mistery :( But I saved the site :) From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sat Aug 14 09:31:08 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2010 07:31:08 -0700 Subject: SparcBook Tadpole In-Reply-To: <C88B8208.26BB5%geoffr@zipcon.net> References: <SNT129-W49AA577A71B2FAC59536CCA3990@phx.gbl>, <C88B8208.26BB5%geoffr@zipcon.net> Message-ID: <SNT129-W3206502FDFEF500564E980A3990@phx.gbl> Hi It seems the the Sparcbook1 and Sparcbook2 don't have openboot. They just used a boot ROM like a pc :{ Dwight > From: geoffr at zipcon.net > > Doesn't it have the OBP, you can also get the contants of the NVRAM or > program it using the built in forth > ---snip--- From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Sat Aug 14 12:52:28 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2010 18:52:28 +0100 Subject: EPROM programming (27c160's) In-Reply-To: <m1OjdPR-000J4CC@p850ug1> References: <m1OjdPR-000J4CC@p850ug1> Message-ID: <4C66D7DC.1070309@philpem.me.uk> On 12/08/10 20:25, Tony Duell wrote: >> I'm still waiting for an EPROM programmer with Linux software available. > > Make one!. The programming specs for most EPROMs are available, I think... Indeed. "Universal 32-pin programmer" is on my 'potential projects' list. 32 MOSFET pin drivers, a couple of separate power supplies with variable current limit, and an FPGA to do the heavy lifting (timing, I/O expander, that sort of thing). > Are enough of the programming algorithms documented to make this > possible? The GAL programming algorithms have been figured out. C't and Elektor published them a few years ago, and Manfred Winterhoff designed the GALBlast around them. The hardware is fine, but the software is horrendous -- all stuffed into one C file, makes extensive use of 16-bit Windows APIs, and is about as portable as a skyscraper... > For the fusible-link PROMs (and PALs), every manufactuer seemed > to do it their own way. Some would release the programming specifications > (they were even sometimes in the data sheets), others wouldn't. I'm only really interested in the Signetics 82S series, and maybe some of the MMI parts (assuming I can find programming specs). Anything else would be a "nice to have". > Ditto for GALs (although, actually, geting any programmign specification > for those was 'interestings') Indeed. Lattice won't give out any info on them, period. I asked a few years ago, and I got exactly five words in response: "We don't provide that information." MaWin's documentation and the Elektor article, combined with the GALBlast sources ("Use The Source, Luke!") provide more than enough info to do a decent GAL programmer. The one thing that is as finicky as hell on the GALBlast is the damn Vcc switch. Stupid thing has an insane amount of voltage drop, if I ever use the thing again (translation: if I can find it) I'll be swapping the NPN driver for a MOSFET (possibly with a BJT gate-driver). -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Sat Aug 14 13:08:10 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2010 15:08:10 -0300 Subject: EPROM programming (27c160's) References: <m1OjdPR-000J4CC@p850ug1> <4C66D7DC.1070309@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <138001cb3bde$225c8ba0$9201a8c0@portajara> > Indeed. "Universal 32-pin programmer" is on my 'potential projects' list. > 32 MOSFET pin drivers, a couple of separate power supplies with variable > current limit, and an FPGA to do the heavy lifting (timing, I/O expander, > that sort of thing). Why not take a look on the reverse engineering of the TOP 2005 and 2008 programmers? It is avaiable on the net! > The GAL programming algorithms have been figured out. C't and Elektor > published them a few years ago, and Manfred Winterhoff designed the > GALBlast around them. The hardware is fine, but the software is > horrendous -- all stuffed into one C file, makes extensive use of 16-bit > Windows APIs, and is about as portable as a skyscraper... You can always reverse engineer....You have an excellent logical analyser :) > The one thing that is as finicky as hell on the GALBlast is the damn Vcc > switch. Stupid thing has an insane amount of voltage drop, if I ever use > the thing again (translation: if I can find it) I'll be swapping the NPN > driver for a MOSFET (possibly with a BJT gate-driver). **affordable** MOSFETS are a novelty, was it avaiable at project time? From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Aug 14 14:44:11 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2010 20:44:11 +0100 (BST) Subject: Pronouncing acronyms (was Re: DEC acronyms) In-Reply-To: <cdaNct6Y.1281727444.1848930.jotter@howe.textdrive.com> from "Jonas Otter" at Aug 13, 10 07:24:04 pm Message-ID: <m1OkMeQ-000J3uC@p850ug1> > > Sorry about being so unclear, I thought you might be a member of the > group in question. I read vey few Yahoo groups... > > Actually, it is quite the opposite, he keeps saying that you shouldn't > take a lens apart without having sophisticated equipment to collimate > the lens when putting it together again, as well as considerable > experience using the equipment, unless you want to have a clean but > expensive paperweight. He thinks that if you just put it back together > again the optical performance will be terrible. I find that hard to believe. I asusme he's suggesting that the radial position of each elementis very critical, and has to be idividually set up when assembly the lens (the axial postion is set by accurately made spacers in any lense I've had apart). My experience is that the elements do self-align when you fit he clamping rings, and very few lenses have any method of adjustign that positon. Just about the only lens I cna think of that does have such an adjustment is the infamous DOmiplan (and tweking the 3 locating screws for the rear lens cell cna turn a terrile lens into a merely awful one :-)) > > I wouldn't know, I haven't tried. I'm not sure I believe that > companies like Minolta who made thousands of lenses wouldn't have > worked out a way to make the optical elements self-aligning or > something. It sounds like a lot of expense for a manufacturing process I would agree. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Aug 14 14:47:16 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2010 20:47:16 +0100 (BST) Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 84, Issue 16 In-Reply-To: <MFbkk3qs.1281728126.6972600.jotter@howe.textdrive.com> from "Jonas Otter" at Aug 13, 10 07:35:26 pm Message-ID: <m1OkMhP-000J3xC@p850ug1> > > Use alkaline or silver oxide. Any small error in exposure caused by the > difference in voltage is compensated for by the exposure latitude of the > film. I had my OM-1 modified with the Schottky diode setup, works That depends o nthe film. It would be find for negative film (B&W or colour), but I think it would be too far out for colour slides. You could probbly compensate by mis-settign the film speed control though. > perfectly. I believe it would probably work just as well without the > diode. > > And as far as the diode goes, I have heard one person claim that it is > entirely pointless because the voltage drop over the diode varies so > much with the ambient temperature that the compensating effect is > essentially nullified. I will have to measure it, but I didn't think the voltage drop varied that much over the normal temperature range. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Aug 14 15:19:45 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2010 21:19:45 +0100 (BST) Subject: Terminals... In-Reply-To: <4C65E78B.4090102@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Aug 13, 10 08:47:07 pm Message-ID: <m1OkNCp-000J48C@p850ug1> > > On 8/13/10 4:27 AM, Johnny Billquist wrote: > >> Not at all, I just wanted to know what he didn't like about them. The > >> only thing I dislike about VT420s is the non-removable power cables. > > > > Huh? My VT420s have removable power cords... > > Mine do not. This is interesting. I know there was a variation of Odd.. Every VT1xx, 2xx and 3xx terminal I have ever seen has had a normal IEC 'kettle plug' for the mains imput, and has a removable cable. I wonder how different the 2 versions are. In particular are the case mouldings the same. It's possible that the case is designed to take a IEC plug, and that the integral-cable versions has a strain-releif that fits the same cutouts in the case (Seen that on other equipment...) I am wondiering if it might be possible to convert one. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Aug 14 15:26:18 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2010 21:26:18 +0100 (BST) Subject: SparcBook Tadpole In-Reply-To: <20100814092153.2b747ca4.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> from "Jochen Kunz" at Aug 14, 10 09:21:53 am Message-ID: <m1OkNJC-000J49C@p850ug1> > > On Fri, 13 Aug 2010 19:31:09 +0100 (BST) > ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > > > I asusme it's a norm,al 32768Jz one. > Maybe. I don't know. I would be suporised if it wasn't, but then I am often suprised > > > How are the connections fro the battey and crystal made to the chip itelf? > The chip (wide 24 pin DIP) has pins on the short edges. Two between > pins 1 and 24 for the XTAL, two between pins 12 and 13 for the battery. > These special pins don't come out of the chip. They go up into the top > close to the edge. The top is a plasic cap filled with resin. (The chip OK, got it.. > is turned top-down to pour the resin into the cap.) There is a small > gap between the top and the actual chip in the middle of the divice. > Only at the edges, where the wires go upward, are covered with resin. > So the top is fixed to the chip mostly by the four wires and a bit of > resin that coveres the wires at the short edges. > > That is why I don't like to remove the battery by cutting the top in > half. The XTAL part of the top will only be fixed by two wires and a > litle bit of resin. To make it machanicaly stable again you would have > to glue the dangling XTAL half to the chip again. But why do that extra Right. Doesn't sound impossible ot make this stronger, though. > work and fight with messy glue if you can avoid all of this just by > carefull and not so intrusive surgery? I am always worried about leaving dead battereis in things. I still believe leakage could be a problem, and I'd rather I didn't get electrolyte all over the PCB, for example. -tony From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Sat Aug 14 16:04:11 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2010 22:04:11 +0100 Subject: EPROM programming (27c160's) In-Reply-To: <138001cb3bde$225c8ba0$9201a8c0@portajara> References: <m1OjdPR-000J4CC@p850ug1> <4C66D7DC.1070309@philpem.me.uk> <138001cb3bde$225c8ba0$9201a8c0@portajara> Message-ID: <4C6704CB.1060400@philpem.me.uk> On 14/08/10 19:08, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >> Indeed. "Universal 32-pin programmer" is on my 'potential projects' >> list. 32 MOSFET pin drivers, a couple of separate power supplies with >> variable current limit, and an FPGA to do the heavy lifting (timing, >> I/O expander, that sort of thing). > > Why not take a look on the reverse engineering of the TOP 2005 and 2008 > programmers? It is avaiable on the net! Got a link? Google isn't revealing anything particularly relevant for the TOP2008. I've seen the hack for the TOP2005 on Openschemes, but it doesn't look like the hardware is especially versatile... >> The GAL programming algorithms have been figured out. C't and Elektor >> published them a few years ago, and Manfred Winterhoff designed the >> GALBlast around them. The hardware is fine, but the software is >> horrendous -- all stuffed into one C file, makes extensive use of >> 16-bit Windows APIs, and is about as portable as a skyscraper... > > You can always reverse engineer....You have an excellent logical > analyser :) Reverse engineering wouldn't be required. Tidying up MaWin's schematic would be a good starting point, but the code is reasonably easy to figure out. Porting the basic algorithms to Linux wouldn't be hard, but getting the timing right would be. > **affordable** MOSFETS are a novelty, was it avaiable at project time? The 2N7000 would have worked fine, and those are ten-a-penny these days. Essentially zero voltage drop (vs. the 1.4V of a BJT). -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Sat Aug 14 16:12:30 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2010 18:12:30 -0300 Subject: EPROM programming (27c160's) References: <m1OjdPR-000J4CC@p850ug1> <4C66D7DC.1070309@philpem.me.uk><138001cb3bde$225c8ba0$9201a8c0@portajara> <4C6704CB.1060400@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <010001cb3bf5$7a27dc10$0600000a@portajara> > Got a link? Google isn't revealing anything particularly relevant for the > TOP2008. I've seen the hack for the TOP2005 on Openschemes, but it doesn't > look like the hardware is especially versatile... What else do you need? The commands outlined in openschemes seems to be enough for creating another program, maybe I'm wrong :) > Reverse engineering wouldn't be required. Tidying up MaWin's schematic > would be a good starting point, but the code is reasonably easy to figure > out. Porting the basic algorithms to Linux wouldn't be hard, but getting > the timing right would be. That's why these timings must be done on board From tpeters at mixcom.com Sat Aug 14 16:33:15 2010 From: tpeters at mixcom.com (Tom Peters) Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2010 16:33:15 -0500 Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 84, Issue 16 In-Reply-To: <MFbkk3qs.1281728126.6972600.jotter@howe.textdrive.com> References: <mailman.22.1281677425.1006.cctech@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20100814163231.0b737368@localhost> At 07:35 PM 8/13/2010 +0000, you wrote: >Use alkaline or silver oxide. Any small error in exposure caused by the Please change the subject line when you reply to a digest message. Thanks. ----- 11. [Computing] A language that doesn't affect the way you think about programming is not worth knowing. --... ...-- -.. . -. ----. --.- --.- -... tpeters at nospam.mixcom.com (remove "nospam") N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) WEB: http://www.mixcom.com/tpeters 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W, Elevation 815', Grid Square EN53wc WAN/LAN/Telcom Analyst, Tech Writer, MCP, CCNA, Registered Linux User 385531 From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Sat Aug 14 18:20:30 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2010 00:20:30 +0100 Subject: EPROM programming (27c160's) In-Reply-To: <010001cb3bf5$7a27dc10$0600000a@portajara> References: <m1OjdPR-000J4CC@p850ug1> <4C66D7DC.1070309@philpem.me.uk><138001cb3bde$225c8ba0$9201a8c0@portajara> <4C6704CB.1060400@philpem.me.uk> <010001cb3bf5$7a27dc10$0600000a@portajara> Message-ID: <4C6724BE.8010901@philpem.me.uk> On 14/08/10 22:12, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > What else do you need? The commands outlined in openschemes seems to be > enough for creating another program, maybe I'm wrong :) The point I was trying to make is that you said the TOP2008 had been reverse engineered similarly; that page only has info on the TOP2005. And quite frankly I don't need another badly-engineered Chinese brick on my desk. >> Reverse engineering wouldn't be required. Tidying up MaWin's schematic >> would be a good starting point, but the code is reasonably easy to >> figure out. Porting the basic algorithms to Linux wouldn't be hard, >> but getting the timing right would be. > > That's why these timings must be done on board ... which brings us neatly back to "I need a GAL programmer that isn't dependent on the host system running a single-tasking OS". Relying on any PC to generate accurate timings is stupid unless you turn off interrupts for a bit. Hope you're not expecting the clock to be accurate when you've finished... and even then the timing might not be that good (the DMA controller might decide to steal a few bus cycles here and there). If I was going to do it, I'd bolt a J-series PIC18F chip onto an FPGA, then wire the FPGA up to a couple of gate driver boards. Hmm, sounds suspiciously like the DiscFerret hardware, doesn't it? :) -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From bqt at softjar.se Sat Aug 14 18:20:23 2010 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2010 01:20:23 +0200 Subject: Terminals... In-Reply-To: <mailman.3.1281805203.14674.cctalk@classiccmp.org> References: <mailman.3.1281805203.14674.cctalk@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <4C6724B7.3090908@softjar.se> Dave McGuire <mcguire at neurotica.com> wrote: > On 8/13/10 4:27 AM, Johnny Billquist wrote: >>> >> Not at all, I just wanted to know what he didn't like about them. The >>> >> only thing I dislike about VT420s is the non-removable power cables. >> > >> > Huh? My VT420s have removable power cords... > > Mine do not. This is interesting. I know there was a variation of > the VT320 (yes 320) that had a removable power cord, but they're not > terribly common. Apparently there's a removable-cord version of the > VT420 as well. Interesting! Hmm. Unfortunately I don't have any VT320 around anymore, since all of them have broken down (flybacks mostly). But I've had atleast five of them over time, and all have had removable cords. I wonder if this might be more of a european thing. Since different countries in Europe use different power plugs, it makes sense to have the power cord detachable. There is more or less a standard format plug that goes into any kind of computer equipment, but the wall plug differs between countries. So you usually don't use a fixed power cord, but instead the standard equipment power connector on your equipment, and then ship whatever power cord is used in that country. >> > The VT420 have both DB25 and MMJ, so I can't see how that could annoy >> > anyone. (As do all DEC terminals from the VT220 onwards.) > > Now waitaminute. I am staring at the back of both a VT420 and VT320 > right now, on the table opposite my desk. Neither of them have DB25s, > only MMJs. The VT420 has what looks like a knock-out that's about the > right size for a DB25. > > Apparently versions with and without DB25s exist as well! Apparently so. :-) > That same (rare-to-me) VT320 I mentioned above that has a removable > power cord also has a DB25. Out of a few hundred VT320s that have gone > through my hands, it's the only one I've ever seen that has either a > removable power cord or a DB25. I've never seen a VT420 with either of > those, and until now, I haven't even heard of their existence. Well, I have four VT420 at home right now, and they all have both a DB25 and detachable power cord. Since I was feeling creative tonight, I even took pictures of the back side of all terminals I have at home. So here is a link to where you can see the backside of: VT-330, VT-420, VT-510, VT-520 and VT-525. All of them have DB25 and all of them have detachable power cords. http://www.update.uu.se/~bqt/vt (Argh, I just realized I missed the VT-240 I have, but oh well...) William Donzelli <wdonzelli at gmail.com> wrote: >> > Huh? My VT420s have removable power cords... > > Some do, some do not. Yup. I just learned. All I've ever seen have been with detachable cords. But as I wrote above, I bet this is a european thing. >> > The VT420 have both DB25 and MMJ, > > Some do, some do not. Of the fifty or so I had recently, I think only > one had the DB25 in addition to MMJ. All mine do, and I have four right here. >> > However, MMJ is actually very nice. Too bad it didn't catch on outside of >> > DEC. But I try to use it for everything I can at home. > > MMJ "fixed" a problem that really was no big deal - people confusing > RJ45 serial with ethernet. I think the real reason was to lock people > into MMJ by doing the old lets-violate-the-standard trick. In my book, > DEC is guilty as anyone else here. Huh? That is totally backwards in more than one way. Yes, MMJ "fixed" one thing. It has nothing to do with ethernet, but all to do with people (and companies) who couldn't figure out how to wire a DB25. Almost all companies got the gender wrong on their equipment. In addition to that, many couldn't figure out what a DTE and DCE was. Now, that is called standard violation. Causing people to have cables they think they can connect, but which don't work. DEC is one of the two companies that did get it right (the other one being HP). To this day, it totally amaze me how so many companies couldn't get this right. And from that perspective it don't surprise me when people around here don't get it either (there was a long thread not long ago, which I declined to even participate in). RS-232 is so simple that it's hard to get wrong. There is only two things you can mess up with. Connector gender, and DTE vs DCE. How can people find that so difficult??? And if people and companies had actually stayed with the standard, you wouldn't even had been able to mix those to parameters up. A DTE *should* have a *male* DB25. A DCE *should* have a female DB25. A male-male cable should be crossed, a female-female cable should be crossed, a male-female cable should be straight. There is nothing more to it. All terminals and computers are DTEs. Modems are DCEs. But it you absolutely wanted to, feel free to wire a modem up as a DTE. It will work just fine, just as long as you fit the right DB25 to it, and wire it up accordingly. But no. Companies just loved putting female DB25 on their terminals, and wire them up as DTEs. Or put male DB25 on their computers, and wire them up as DCEs. *Idiots* That is called violating the standards. And to make matters ridiculously worse, we have IBM. Who simply put just raped the RS-232 standard by using a DE9, moving one or two pins in a totally non-logical way, changing the gender, *and* sortof wiring it as a DCE. They should be taken out to the back and shot. IBM have caused more damage to the computer world than all other companies put together. Here is a simple tip for the next time you wire a RS-232 up. Measure pin 2 and 3 on the equipment. One should at around -12V, while the other is around 0. Do this on both sides. Then wire the -12V from one side to the 0V on the other for both 2 and 3. And run pin 7 straight through. And that's it. You now have a correct RS-232 cable, albeit just the data leads. You can wire the rest up if it amuse you. The most important ones are DCD, DTR, DSR, RTS, CTS. For a DTE-DTE, you should wire CTS to RTS and DCD+DSR to DTR. Very simple. And if I remember right, we're talking about pines 4,5,6,8 and 20. But I'd usually check the RS-232 DB25 connector layout before I try to wire a full cable up. Most of the time I'm happy with just 2,3 and 7 anyway, since I don't do hardware flow control (another RS-232 standards violation, by the way, and which DEC did not do). But having the DSR signal is useful to detect if someone gets disconnected. What DEC did with MMJ was in no way violating any standard. Noone in his right mind would think that an MMJ was an RS-232. So what standard did they violate (if I may ask?). Hmm, I seem to remember that the signalling in the MMJ is even called DEC-423, but I might be remembering wrong. It is pretty much compatible with RS-423 anyway (might be equivalent), and you can usually get away with connecting that directly with RS-232, but they are not really the same thing. (Hmm, looking at RS-423, it would appear that DEC-423 is a superset, since DEC-423 don't actually use a common ground for everything, but use one ground for all transmitted signals, and one ground for all received signals). So, the signalling in the MMJ connector is only claimed to be communicating using DEC-423. How would that violate any standard? If DEC had said that it was an RS-232 port, then they would have violated the RS-232 standard. (I guess I'm confused at your definition of violating a standard.) What MMJ solved was that they removed the gender issues, and they simplified the DTE/DCE issues. Your cable is either straight or crossed (either flat or turned 180? looking from one end to the other). They also simplified the assembly of the cables compared to RS-232. The fact that MMJ Ethernet vs. RS-232 on a RJ45? Give me a break. None of that even existed when the MMJ came about. And the idea of putting RS-252 on an RJ45 is something I'd call violating a standard, if anything. But it comes with the one-connector-for-everything that some people are so fond of. So you also have telephony on RJ45, to make life really interesting... And all running through one patch panel. >> > The reliability of the VT420 seems to be pretty decent. I've had many more >> > VT320 fail on me. But we have to remember that we're talking about 20+ year >> > old equipment now... > > Yes, but these were built well towards the end of the monochrome CRT era. I don't know. When was the end of the monochrome CRT era? Has it ended yet? Dave McGuire <mcguire at neurotica.com> wrote: > On 8/13/10 5:51 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote: >>> >> AFAIK the VT420 supports Sixel, but not ReGIS. >> > >> > No. The last graphic terminal was the VT340. >> > The VT420 don't support any graphics, unless you count the user defined >> > font as graphics. >> > >> > Graphics implies either SIXEL, ReGIS or both. Actually, I've never seen >> > any terminal that supports sixel but not ReGIS, however, several >> > printers is of that inclination. >> > >> > (Although I'm sure someone will now recall some terminal that do sixel >> > but not ReGIS just because I wrote the above... :-) ). > > I've never *used* Sixel graphics on a VT420, but the manual clearly > states that it supports the Sixel format. > > (flip flip) > > Ok, I just went back and re-read it. It "supports Sixel format" as a > way to encode user-definable character sets. So you're right I suppose, > it ALMOST supports Sixel graphics! ;) I said "unless you count the used defined font". :-) All that said, I know some crazy person wrote a GIF viewer for the VT320, using the user defined font to pull it off. Dave McGuire <mcguire at neurotica.com> wrote: On 8/13/10 8:49 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >>> >> However, MMJ is actually very nice. Too bad it didn't catch on outside of >>> >> DEC. But I try to use it for everything I can at home. >> > >> > MMJ "fixed" a problem that really was no big deal - people confusing >> > RJ45 serial with ethernet. > > Huh? I don't see how that can be. The 802.3i standard which defined > 10baseT Ethernet on RJ45 connectors came out in 1990, while the first > terminal to implement MMJ was the VT320, which predates that by three years. Ouch. You're right. For some reason I was thinking that the VT220 also had MMJ, but it didn't. That only came with the VT320... But I can't see the relevance of MMJ vs. RJ45 either, for various reasons mentioned above. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sat Aug 14 19:14:00 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2010 20:14:00 -0400 Subject: Terminals... In-Reply-To: <4C6724B7.3090908@softjar.se> References: <mailman.3.1281805203.14674.cctalk@classiccmp.org> <4C6724B7.3090908@softjar.se> Message-ID: <AANLkTi=V57iG5hLRtw7h3d+R9AyS_t5EXZ8XmxF7=So1@mail.gmail.com> > Almost all companies got the gender wrong on their equipment. For "almost all companies" to get the gender wrong, somehow we managed. Mostly, it was just making or ordering cable Y instead of cable X. > And to make matters ridiculously worse, we have IBM. Who simply put just > raped the RS-232 standard by using a DE9, moving one or two pins in a > totally non-logical way, changing the gender, *and* sortof wiring it as a > DCE. DG also used non standard DEs I think. Moving serial to the DE was in the cards, simply because the DB was underutilized and took up too much real estate. IBM certainly played the standard violation game as well, but somehow the DE9 serial issue is no big deal. Order or make cable Z, and the problem is solved. > What DEC did with MMJ was in no way violating any standard. > right mind would think that an MMJ was an RS-232. So what standard did they > violate (if I may ask?). A new connector that requires new tooling. Every halfway decently sized DP shop probably had a nice selection of tools and supplies for D shell and RJ connectors. Male or female - no problem to make whatever. Or call up the cable supplier or Inmac, and let do the work. But not with MMJ, everyone has to get that special die... > Ethernet vs. RS-232 on a RJ45? Give me a break. None of that even existed > when the MMJ came about. OK, yes, I suppose it is a bit early, so I will take that back (but, come on, lighten up a bit. Did I touch a nerve?). I was told that DEC's reason is that too many people were confusing things that use RJ connectors. However, it was pretty clear at the time that RJs were going to be a hit. Serial went there, and even token ring. > I don't know. When was the end of the monochrome CRT era? Has it ended yet? Yes, it has ended. Monochome CRTs have not been made for quite a few years now. "New" production terminals are using refurbished tubes. Also, I bet the number of new dumb terminals being ordered these days is tiny, and it would not surprise me if what is being sold today as new is just old stock from the warehouses. I is a whole lot cheaper to store a few thousand terminals in a warehouse than it is to keep a very slow production line open, with the bonus that unsold stock can be written off and scrapped. -- Will From RichA at vulcan.com Sat Aug 14 19:42:40 2010 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2010 17:42:40 -0700 Subject: [gopher] OT: Anyone interested in text editor programming? (fwd) In-Reply-To: <201008131422.o7DEM4qL017766@floodgap.com> References: <201008131422.o7DEM4qL017766@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <CC28F43ED4708D489ABCF68D06D7F556040A5CC9E1@505DENALI.corp.vnw.com> > Video TECO is an attempt to re-create this great old editor in a > version that any Tom, Dick, or Harry would understand. It was written > by Paul Cantrell ten years ago; the files had been lost, until I > discovered a snapshot of the source hiding in my e-mail inbox. I've > even found a patch to make it run on Linux. So I've re-released it > under the Sleepycat Licence, and I am currently enlisting developers > to help me add new features and squash bugs. Who is this fellow, and what makes him think that TECO, visual or otherwise, has ever been lost???? *I* haven't lost it, and I am the maintainer of MIT TECO and EMACS, and have been since I posted a Y2K fix to comp.emacs and gnu.emacs.bugs (or whatever the newsgroup was called at the time). RMS stated that he had no idea that anyone was maintaining it, and that if I wanted to take it on, I should go for it. As I was working for a company that built PDP-10 clone systems at the time, I did so quite happily. Video TECO has never been lost. It was written by PDP-10 engineers at DEC in the 1970s, and it still present on the Tops-10 distribution tapes (as images at http://pdp-10.trailing-edge.com/). 10 years ago is not all that long in the history of TECO, and I have no idea who Mr. Cantrell might be, but I misdoubt he would have a great deal to say about the expropriation of his work by this fellow without, as far as I can tell, so much as a "By your leave". $DEITY, I hate children who think that because something is unknown to them it must be unknown to all the world! Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.PDPplanet.org/ http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Aug 14 20:26:45 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2010 21:26:45 -0400 Subject: Terminals... In-Reply-To: <AANLkTi=V57iG5hLRtw7h3d+R9AyS_t5EXZ8XmxF7=So1@mail.gmail.com> References: <mailman.3.1281805203.14674.cctalk@classiccmp.org> <4C6724B7.3090908@softjar.se> <AANLkTi=V57iG5hLRtw7h3d+R9AyS_t5EXZ8XmxF7=So1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4C674255.2080904@neurotica.com> On 8/14/10 8:14 PM, William Donzelli wrote: > IBM certainly played the standard violation game as well, but somehow > the DE9 serial issue is no big deal. Order or make cable Z, and the > problem is solved. DE-9 serial ports!! *spit* > OK, yes, I suppose it is a bit early, so I will take that back (but, > come on, lighten up a bit. Did I touch a nerve?). I was told that > DEC's reason is that too many people were confusing things that use RJ > connectors. However, it was pretty clear at the time that RJs were > going to be a hit. Serial went there, and even token ring. Modular connectors date back to early 1973. They were adopted in the telephony world pretty quickly, but there wasn't that much of an overlap between that world and the world of computing. (nowhere near as much as in later years, I mean) AT&T StarLAN predates 10baseT Ethernet, and I seem to recall it using modular connectors as well, but I don't know when it came into being. I only started seeing mention of it in the mid-1980s. Perhaps that could've been a source of the confusion DEC was trying to address with MMJ. That said, though, while the sequence of events largely precludes that motivation stemming from confusion involving 10baseT in particular, it was a good thing to do. Perhaps they should've done it in a different way, using a different standard connector if they really didn't want DB-25s (which they SHOULD have used), but look at all the trouble we're still having on TODAY between 10/100/1000baseT Ethernet and serial ports on networking equipment, and even other types of connections. Just a few months ago I unplugged a T1 (RJ48X, the same connector as an RJ45) from the serial CONSOLE port on a Cisco and plugged it back into its T1 WIC card. The "tech" had gotten them mixed up. So yes, all over the industry we have connector confusion problems primarily because people refuse to pay attention to what they're doing. I'd dearly love to see 120V AC power delivered on 1/8" headphone jacks for a few years...just to clean up the gene pool a bit. > Yes, it has ended. Monochome CRTs have not been made for quite a few > years now. "New" production terminals are using refurbished tubes. > Also, I bet the number of new dumb terminals being ordered these days > is tiny, and it would not surprise me if what is being sold today as > new is just old stock from the warehouses. I is a whole lot cheaper to > store a few thousand terminals in a warehouse than it is to keep a > very slow production line open, with the bonus that unsold stock can > be written off and scrapped. I have a mono VGA CRT here that was purchased new less than a year ago. I suppose its CRT could've been a refurb. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Sat Aug 14 20:43:39 2010 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2010 18:43:39 -0700 Subject: Static RAM chip source (& S-100 related questions...) Message-ID: <4C67464B.8090303@mail.msu.edu> Hi all -- I finally have procured enough hardware to get my IMSAI 8080 running again, albeit in a very barebones state. I currently have only 16K of working (and compatible) memory and am trying to get an additional 32K static RAM board working again (It's an IMS board, see: http://www.s100computers.com/Hardware%20Folder/IMS/32K%20Static%20RAM/32K%20Static%20RAM.htm) Mine is missing a number of memory chips; these are 5257 4Kx1 (I believe from my research the TMS4044 is equivalent). Can anyone suggest a reputable place to pick up half a dozen or so of these for a reasonable price? There are a few on ebay for $6 each, which seems a little steep (but perhaps my expectations are out of order...) I'm also looking for a manual for a PSS RAM65. I believe this is a 16K DRAM board. It's the only S-100 board in my collection that I haven't managed to find a manual or schematic for... Once I get the memory situation resolved I hope to get a floppy disk system working. I currently have a Tarbell 1011D in unknown condition -- is this a decent card to work with (and can it be made to work with 5.25" drives?), or would I be better off finding something else? Thanks as always, Josh From legalize at xmission.com Sat Aug 14 20:48:20 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2010 19:48:20 -0600 Subject: Terminals... In-Reply-To: Your message of Sun, 15 Aug 2010 01:20:23 +0200. <4C6724B7.3090908@softjar.se> Message-ID: <E1OkSKi-0005BT-NE@shell.xmission.com> In article <4C6724B7.3090908 at softjar.se>, Johnny Billquist <bqt at softjar.se> writes: > Almost all companies got the gender wrong on their equipment. That is telling you something about the standard. If everyone's getting it wrong, then the standard has a bug. Standards should make it easy for people to do the right thing. If a standard comes out and everyone consistently gets it wrong, then the standard is at fault, not the people. Standards should acknowledge human nature, not pretend that humans are vulcans. > [...] many couldn't figure out what a DTE and DCE was. More testimony to the standard being buggy. It doesn't help that these two different roles differ in their acronym by only a single letter that sounds almost identical when pronounced out. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com/the-direct3d-graphics-pipeline/> Legalize Adulthood! <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com> From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Sat Aug 14 20:57:20 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2010 22:57:20 -0300 Subject: Terminals... References: <mailman.3.1281805203.14674.cctalk@classiccmp.org> <4C6724B7.3090908@softjar.se><AANLkTi=V57iG5hLRtw7h3d+R9AyS_t5EXZ8XmxF7=So1@mail.gmail.com> <4C674255.2080904@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <029501cb3c1e$7c03cb60$0600000a@portajara> > I'd dearly love to see 120V AC power delivered on 1/8" headphone jacks > for a few years...just to clean up the gene pool a bit. Oh Dave, you're a naughty boy :oD From useddec at gmail.com Sat Aug 14 21:23:39 2010 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2010 21:23:39 -0500 Subject: Terminals... In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikXTL5SACxgRJBXMNiXAKP9zeFUiUBUXWW_B29P@mail.gmail.com> References: <mailman.20.1281656478.1006.cctalk@classiccmp.org> <4C6501DD.4030309@softjar.se> <AANLkTikXTL5SACxgRJBXMNiXAKP9zeFUiUBUXWW_B29P@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <AANLkTimPQGnCTT8YTDNoUuiSERsqubPsuAvdQhoGPfDX@mail.gmail.com> I think the US version has the attached power cord, and the international one has an attached power cord. Paul On Fri, Aug 13, 2010 at 7:49 PM, William Donzelli <wdonzelli at gmail.com>wrote: > > Huh? My VT420s have removable power cords... > > Some do, some do not. > > > The VT420 have both DB25 and MMJ, > > Some do, some do not. Of the fifty or so I had recently, I think only > one had the DB25 in addition to MMJ. > > > However, MMJ is actually very nice. Too bad it didn't catch on outside of > > DEC. But I try to use it for everything I can at home. > > MMJ "fixed" a problem that really was no big deal - people confusing > RJ45 serial with ethernet. I think the real reason was to lock people > into MMJ by doing the old lets-violate-the-standard trick. In my book, > DEC is guilty as anyone else here. > > > No, I can't honestly think of a keyboard I like better than the LK201 and > > LK401. > > Mmmm... > > > The reliability of the VT420 seems to be pretty decent. I've had many > more > > VT320 fail on me. But we have to remember that we're talking about 20+ > year > > old equipment now... > > Yes, but these were built well towards the end of the monochrome CRT era. > > -- > Will > From schoedel at kw.igs.net Sat Aug 14 21:54:51 2010 From: schoedel at kw.igs.net (Kevin Schoedel) Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2010 22:54:51 -0400 Subject: Useful cables (was Re: Terminals...) In-Reply-To: <4C674255.2080904@neurotica.com> References: <mailman.3.1281805203.14674.cctalk@classiccmp.org> <4C6724B7.3090908@softjar.se> <AANLkTi=V57iG5hLRtw7h3d+R9AyS_t5EXZ8XmxF7=So1@mail.gmail.com> <4C674255.2080904@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <p0621020ac88d06501c58@[192.168.0.16]> At 9:26 pm -0400 2010/08/14, Dave McGuire wrote: > I'd dearly love to see 120V AC power delivered on 1/8" headphone jacks >for a few years...just to clean up the gene pool a bit. The necessary adapters exist, and are readily available from any photo shop that carries pro lighting gear. Examples: http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/682580-REG/Impact_10032330_Sync_Cord_Mini.html http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/613977-REG/Impact_9031510_Mini_3_5_mm_to.html -- Kevin Schoedel <schoedel at kw.igs.net> VA3TCS From cclist at sydex.com Sat Aug 14 22:18:01 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2010 20:18:01 -0700 Subject: Static RAM chip source (& S-100 related questions...) In-Reply-To: <4C67464B.8090303@mail.msu.edu> References: <4C67464B.8090303@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <4C66F9F9.31905.251BE4A@cclist.sydex.com> On 14 Aug 2010 at 18:43, Josh Dersch wrote: > Mine is missing a number of memory chips; these are 5257 4Kx1 (I > believe from my research the TMS4044 is equivalent). Can anyone > suggest a reputable place to pick up half a dozen or so of these for a > reasonable price? There are a few on ebay for $6 each, which seems a > little steep (but perhaps my expectations are out of order...) I believe that the Intel 2147 is a pin-compatible alternative. Unicorn has these for $3 and change the each. Perhaps eBay has them cheaper... --Chuck From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sat Aug 14 22:56:46 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2010 20:56:46 -0700 Subject: Static RAM chip source (& S-100 related questions...) In-Reply-To: <4C66F9F9.31905.251BE4A@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4C67464B.8090303@mail.msu.edu>, <4C66F9F9.31905.251BE4A@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <SNT129-W24E6F835198DD347B58BFAA39A0@phx.gbl> > From: cclist at sydex.com > > On 14 Aug 2010 at 18:43, Josh Dersch wrote: > > > > Mine is missing a number of memory chips; these are 5257 4Kx1 (I > > believe from my research the TMS4044 is equivalent). Can anyone > > suggest a reputable place to pick up half a dozen or so of these for a > > reasonable price? There are a few on ebay for $6 each, which seems a > > little steep (but perhaps my expectations are out of order...) > > I believe that the Intel 2147 is a pin-compatible alternative. > Unicorn has these for $3 and change the each. Perhaps eBay has them > cheaper... > > --Chuck > The 2147s draw a lot more power than the 4044s Dwight From cclist at sydex.com Sat Aug 14 23:32:30 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2010 21:32:30 -0700 Subject: Static RAM chip source (& S-100 related questions...) In-Reply-To: <SNT129-W24E6F835198DD347B58BFAA39A0@phx.gbl> References: <4C67464B.8090303@mail.msu.edu>, <4C66F9F9.31905.251BE4A@cclist.sydex.com>, <SNT129-W24E6F835198DD347B58BFAA39A0@phx.gbl> Message-ID: <4C670B6E.8790.295EE0A@cclist.sydex.com> On 14 Aug 2010 at 20:56, dwight elvey wrote: > > The 2147s draw a lot more power than the 4044s Well, there are lower consumption parts available; the Intel 2147L or C2147AL; the AMD Am21L47. On the other hand, if you've got the supply headroom, the 2147 is only 2 bucks and change at Arcade Components. But good luck finding the low-power variety. From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Sat Aug 14 23:47:47 2010 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2010 21:47:47 -0700 Subject: Static RAM chip source (& S-100 related questions...) In-Reply-To: <4C670B6E.8790.295EE0A@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4C67464B.8090303@mail.msu.edu>, <4C66F9F9.31905.251BE4A@cclist.sydex.com>, <SNT129-W24E6F835198DD347B58BFAA39A0@phx.gbl> <4C670B6E.8790.295EE0A@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4C677173.60502@mail.msu.edu> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 14 Aug 2010 at 20:56, dwight elvey wrote: > > >> The 2147s draw a lot more power than the 4044s >> > > Well, there are lower consumption parts available; the Intel 2147L or > C2147AL; the AMD Am21L47. On the other hand, if you've got the > supply headroom, the 2147 is only 2 bucks and change at Arcade > Components. > > But good luck finding the low-power variety. > > The board I'm populating needs 64 chips, but I'm only missing six of them. Is valid to assume that 2147s will play nicely with the existing 5257s? In that case the extra power consumption from 6 2147s is probably not going to break the bank. Thanks, Josh From cclist at sydex.com Sun Aug 15 00:22:03 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2010 22:22:03 -0700 Subject: Static RAM chip source (& S-100 related questions...) In-Reply-To: <4C677173.60502@mail.msu.edu> References: <4C67464B.8090303@mail.msu.edu>, <4C670B6E.8790.295EE0A@cclist.sydex.com>, <4C677173.60502@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <4C67170B.21415.2C3497D@cclist.sydex.com> On 14 Aug 2010 at 21:47, Josh Dersch wrote: > The board I'm populating needs 64 chips, but I'm only missing six of > them. Is valid to assume that 2147s will play nicely with the > existing 5257s? In that case the extra power consumption from 6 2147s > is probably not going to break the bank. I'd probably replace a row of 8, not just the 6. The 2147 is a lot faster than the MM5257 (by about a factor of 5) which probably accounts for the difference in power consumption. If you've got the power, you should be fine. --Chuck From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Sun Aug 15 00:51:14 2010 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2010 22:51:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: transistor replacements Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.1.10.1008142246450.9413@sleipnir.cs.csubak.edu> I'm playing around with an old gizmo that calls for mps-u05 and mps-u55 transistors. They're obsolete, but easy enough to find on Ebay. I would rather use something more modern, particularly because these are in a power supply. Can someone suggest substitutes in a TO-220 case? I'm not coming up with anything satisfying with Mouser's select-o-matic. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From spectre at floodgap.com Sun Aug 15 01:34:32 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2010 23:34:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [gopher] OT: Anyone interested in text editor programming? (fwd) In-Reply-To: <CC28F43ED4708D489ABCF68D06D7F556040A5CC9E1@505DENALI.corp.vnw.com> from Rich Alderson at "Aug 14, 10 05:42:40 pm" Message-ID: <201008150634.o7F6YW25015892@floodgap.com> > $DEITY, I hate children who think that because something is unknown to them > it must be unknown to all the world! Rich, I can tell you feel strongly, but I had never heard of Video TECO either, so is republishing it and bringing it up to date not a good thing? I'm sort of regretting posting Nick's announcement here, given the response has been generally negative. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- When two elephants fight, the grass and trees suffer. -- African proverb --- From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sun Aug 15 01:46:03 2010 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2010 23:46:03 -0700 Subject: transistor replacements In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.1.10.1008142246450.9413@sleipnir.cs.csubak.edu> References: <alpine.DEB.1.10.1008142246450.9413@sleipnir.cs.csubak.edu> Message-ID: <2e5a29e0adcc27880200304157c39c48@cs.ubc.ca> On 2010 Aug 14, at 10:51 PM, David Griffith wrote: > I'm playing around with an old gizmo that calls for mps-u05 and > mps-u55 transistors. They're obsolete, but easy enough to find on > Ebay. I would rather use something more modern, particularly because > these are in a power supply. Can someone suggest substitutes in a > TO-220 case? I'm not coming up with anything satisfying with Mouser's > select-o-matic. > First thing that comes to mind for general-purpose use are the TO-220 variants of the venerable NPN 2N3055 (originally TO-3 package): NPN: MJE3055T PNP: MJE2955T The Motorola datasheet here covers both of them: http://www.datasheetcatalog.com/datasheets_pdf/M/J/E/3/MJE3055.shtml To be honest, I haven't actually bought either of these in ages, I generally have enough surplus to scavenge from, so I don't know what current prices are. They might be a little over-rated relative to the 05/55, so there might be something just as common and cheaper out there. From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Aug 15 03:23:05 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2010 04:23:05 -0400 Subject: Useful cables (was Re: Terminals...) In-Reply-To: <p0621020ac88d06501c58@[192.168.0.16]> References: <mailman.3.1281805203.14674.cctalk@classiccmp.org> <4C6724B7.3090908@softjar.se> <AANLkTi=V57iG5hLRtw7h3d+R9AyS_t5EXZ8XmxF7=So1@mail.gmail.com> <4C674255.2080904@neurotica.com> <p0621020ac88d06501c58@[192.168.0.16]> Message-ID: <4C67A3E9.3010001@neurotica.com> On 8/14/10 10:54 PM, Kevin Schoedel wrote: >> I'd dearly love to see 120V AC power delivered on 1/8" headphone jacks >> for a few years...just to clean up the gene pool a bit. > > The necessary adapters exist, and are readily available from any photo shop > that carries pro lighting gear. > > Examples: > http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/682580-REG/Impact_10032330_Sync_Cord_Mini.html > http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/613977-REG/Impact_9031510_Mini_3_5_mm_to.html We need to see to it that a very large number of these find their way out into the general public. =) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Aug 15 03:40:33 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2010 04:40:33 -0400 Subject: Terminals... In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimPQGnCTT8YTDNoUuiSERsqubPsuAvdQhoGPfDX@mail.gmail.com> References: <mailman.20.1281656478.1006.cctalk@classiccmp.org> <4C6501DD.4030309@softjar.se> <AANLkTikXTL5SACxgRJBXMNiXAKP9zeFUiUBUXWW_B29P@mail.gmail.com> <AANLkTimPQGnCTT8YTDNoUuiSERsqubPsuAvdQhoGPfDX@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4C67A801.9010806@neurotica.com> On 8/14/10 10:23 PM, Paul Anderson wrote: > I think the US version has the attached power cord, and the international > one has an attached power cord. Um. Huh? ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Aug 15 03:41:24 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2010 04:41:24 -0400 Subject: Terminals... In-Reply-To: <029501cb3c1e$7c03cb60$0600000a@portajara> References: <mailman.3.1281805203.14674.cctalk@classiccmp.org> <4C6724B7.3090908@softjar.se><AANLkTi=V57iG5hLRtw7h3d+R9AyS_t5EXZ8XmxF7=So1@mail.gmail.com> <4C674255.2080904@neurotica.com> <029501cb3c1e$7c03cb60$0600000a@portajara> Message-ID: <4C67A834.9030801@neurotica.com> On 8/14/10 9:57 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >> I'd dearly love to see 120V AC power delivered on 1/8" headphone jacks >> for a few years...just to clean up the gene pool a bit. > > Oh Dave, you're a naughty boy :oD B-) -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From glen.slick at gmail.com Sun Aug 15 12:12:19 2010 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2010 10:12:19 -0700 Subject: Static RAM chip source (& S-100 related questions...) In-Reply-To: <4C67170B.21415.2C3497D@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4C67464B.8090303@mail.msu.edu> <4C670B6E.8790.295EE0A@cclist.sydex.com> <4C677173.60502@mail.msu.edu> <4C67170B.21415.2C3497D@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <AANLkTik0k2J_KDj6p3chkipmDUORK8iHnOK8Zkm_aTro@mail.gmail.com> On Sat, Aug 14, 2010 at 10:22 PM, Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> wrote: > On 14 Aug 2010 at 21:47, Josh Dersch wrote: > > >> The board I'm populating needs 64 chips, but I'm only missing six of >> them. ?Is valid to assume that 2147s will play nicely with the >> existing 5257s? ?In that case the extra power consumption from 6 2147s >> is probably not going to break the bank. > > I'd probably replace a row of 8, not just the 6. ?The 2147 is a lot > faster than the MM5257 (by about a factor of 5) which probably > accounts for the difference in power consumption. ?If you've got the > power, you should be fine. > > --Chuck One other thing that might help the situation is that the 2147 enters an automatic power-down mode when the CE# input is at a high level. For example the datasheet for the CY2147-35 says the max operating current is 125ma while the max standby current is 25ma. Do MM5257 parts enter a standby mode when not selected? I don't have a datasheet handy. Which would draw more current total, two banks of MM5257 parts, or two banks of CY2147 parts where at least one of the two banks should be in standby mode? -Glen From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Aug 15 13:23:35 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2010 19:23:35 +0100 (BST) Subject: Terminals... In-Reply-To: <4C6724B7.3090908@softjar.se> from "Johnny Billquist" at Aug 15, 10 01:20:23 am Message-ID: <m1Okhrz-000J43C@p850ug1> > >>> >> Not at all, I just wanted to know what he didn't like about them= > . The > >>> >> only thing I dislike about VT420s is the non-removable power cable= > s. > >> >=20 > >> > Huh? My VT420s have removable power cords... > >=20 > > Mine do not. This is interesting. I know there was a variation of > > the VT320 (yes 320) that had a removable power cord, but they're not > > terribly common. Apparently there's a removable-cord version of the > > VT420 as well. Interesting! > > Hmm. Unfortunately I don't have any VT320 around anymore, since all of=20 > them have broken down (flybacks mostly). But I've had atleast five of=20 > them over time, and all have had removable cords. > > I wonder if this might be more of a european thing. Since different=20 > countries in Europe use different power plugs, it makes sense to have=20 That would make a lot of sense. I've seen something similar on other equipment too -- IIRC the IBM5152 graphics pritner had a permanently-fixed mains cable in the 115V version and a plug-in one (IEC connector) for the 220 and 240V versions. > Huh? That is totally backwards in more than one way. > Yes, MMJ "fixed" one thing. It has nothing to do with ethernet, but all=20 > to do with people (and companies) who couldn't figure out how to wire a=20 > DB25. Almost all companies got the gender wrong on their equipment. In=20 > addition to that, many couldn't figure out what a DTE and DCE was. > Now, that is called standard violation. Causing people to have cables=20 > they think they can connect, but which don't work. DEC is one of the two=20 > companies that did get it right (the other one being HP). To this day,=20 This must be a totally different HP to the one I've come across... If HP used a male connector on a piece of equipment, it was DTE. But if they used a female conenctor, it might be DTE, it might be DCE. I've lost count of the number of HP printer ports (both on computers/terminals and on printers) which are DTEs on a female connector. Mnay HP devices had a 50 pin microribbon connector for the serial port. It was actually quite nice, in that it might carry RS422 signals as well as RS232, and it would have the +/-12V ans +5V poiwer lines avaialble for interface converters. HP sold cables to link it to normal DB25s (and I think they sold 'standard violating cables' such as a male DB25 wired as a DCE!) And then there's the HP82164... It has a male connecotr, but an internal jumper block that can switch it between DTE and DCE wiring (!). And i nthe DCE mode, some of the connections are _weird_. I find the onyl sane way to use that device is to keep that jumper set to DTE and make up the cables as necessary. Heck, I've even got an HP RS232 interface unit with a cable ending ina 36 pin microribbon plug, like a Centronics printer conenctor. Origianlly it would ahve come with an adapter from that to DB25s, but of course that can get lost... So I do not regard H Pas one of the 'good guys' here... > it totally amaze me how so many companies couldn't get this right. And=20 > from that perspective it don't surprise me when people around here don't=20 > get it either (there was a long thread not long ago, which I declined to=20 > even participate in). RS-232 is so simple that it's hard to get wrong.=20 > There is only two things you can mess up with. Connector gender, and DTE=20 > vs DCE. How can people find that so difficult??? My view is that DTE/DCE is different from either conenctor gender or wiring. The reason is that RS232 is not quire symmetrical. Sure, there are obvious pairs of signals that everybody knows swap with each ohter -- TxD <-> RxD, RTS <-> CTS, DSR <-> DTR. But there are also many signals that don't have a couterpart going the other way. The most common one is DCD (carrier detect) which is DCE->DTE only. And the second most common one is RI (Ring indicator). There are many more, though (DRS -- DAta Rate Select is from DTE to DCE, for xample). Given that, my view is that a device where DCD is an input is a DTE no moatter what connector is used, what gender of connector is used, and how it's wired. This implies that I consider the HP 50 pin interface to be a DTE, BTW. > And if people and companies had actually stayed with the standard, you=20 > wouldn't even had been able to mix those to parameters up. True enough. > > A DTE *should* have a *male* DB25. A DCE *should* have a female DB25. A=20 > male-male cable should be crossed, a female-female cable should be=20 Perhaps you could give explicint wirelists for a 'crossed' cable that always works. Because I sure can't! > crossed, a male-female cable should be straight. There is nothing more=20 > to it. I disagree there... > > All terminals and computers are DTEs. Modems are DCEs. But it you=20 I have seen computers with DCE ports. Really DCE -- that is a female connector, wired as a DCE. The idea is you can plug a terminal straight in. > absolutely wanted to, feel free to wire a modem up as a DTE. It will=20 I don;t think you can. What are you going to do with DCD and RI? They are outputs from amodem, what pins on a DTE connector are you going to connect htem to. > And to make matters ridiculously worse, we have IBM. Who simply put just=20 The original PC Asyunc card (and IIRC at least one of the synchronous cards) got it right. A DB25 male, wired as a DTE. That seems to fit the standard. > raped the RS-232 standard by using a DE9, moving one or two pins in a=20 > totally non-logical way, changing the gender, *and* sortof wiring it as=20 > a DCE. Err, no. It's a DTE (clearly, since the DCD and RIO pins are inputs, and in fact the pin named TxD is an output, etc). It's a male connector (as a DTE should be). All they did was use a DE9 connector and define a pinout for it. I don't think that's a big problem. BTW, the standard IBM cable for this (as docuemtned in the manuals) has a DE9 socket to fit the card linked ot a DB25 plug, and that is wired as a DTE. Which IMHO meets the standard. > They should be taken out to the back and shot. IBM have caused more=20 > damage to the computer world than all other companies put together. While I have no particular love of IBM, I don;t think this is a fair comment at all. And I certainyl don't think their version of the RS232 interface violtates anything much. > > Here is a simple tip for the next time you wire a RS-232 up. Measure pin=20 > 2 and 3 on the equipment. One should at around -12V, while the other is=20 > around 0. Do this on both sides. Then wire the -12V from one side to the=20 > 0V on the other for both 2 and 3. And run pin 7 straight through. I find those little adapters with 7 or so bicoloured LEDs useful for this. Pity they are hard to get now... I assume fro mthe pin numbers you are using DB25 connectors. In which case you shouldalwo wire pin 1 straight through using the screen (shield) of the cable. If you're going to complain about violating sandards.... > And that's it. You now have a correct RS-232 cable, albeit just the data=20 > leads. You can wire the rest up if it amuse you. The most important ones=20 Problem is, a lot of devices require at least some of those control signals to be asserted... And some devices use odd ones (pin 11 as a busy signal is a favourite of many printers!). If you don't wire them correctly, eitherr you lose data when the buffer fills, or nothing works at all. I have 3 things which make life a lot easier. The first one violates the standards, but it helps to undo violations... 1) A 'all gender cahle'This is a lenght of 25 way IDC cable with a DB25 plug and a DB5 socket at both ends (4 connectors total). Used when some idiot has wired a DTE on a socket, for example. 2) A 'loopbakc handshake' null modem adapter. This wires 7 striaght through, swapps 2 and 3, and straps 4 to 5 and 6 to 8 to 20 at each end. 3) A 'full handshake' null modem adapter. 7 staight through, swap 2 with 3, 4 with 5 and 6 and 8 (strapped) with 20. Some devices need moe trickery, which is why I have a breakout box. And various special cables and adapters kept with the devices in question. > are DCD, DTR, DSR, RTS, CTS. For a DTE-DTE, you should wire CTS to RTS=20 > and DCD+DSR to DTR. Very simple. And if I remember right, we're talking=20 > about pines 4,5,6,8 and 20. But I'd usually check the RS-232 DB25=20 Yes. > connector layout before I try to wire a full cable up. Most of the time=20 The common pins for the DB25 wiring iare burnt into my brain. But I have to look up things like the back channel connections (yes, I do have at least one device that implements that). > I'm happy with just 2,3 and 7 anyway, since I don't do hardware flow=20 > control (another RS-232 standards violation, by the way, and which DEC=20 Indeed it is. Originally modems didn't buffer data. The control lines were between the modem and the termnial/computer, but the 2 devices that need to agree on flow control are the terminal and the computer -- the 2 DTEs. And those signals are not sent over the communiation link by themdoem. However, so many devives violate the standard and use these lines for flow control that it is very useufl to know what to do with them. The problem comes when one device insites on using DTR (say) to indicate buffer full while the other one uses CTS to control the transmitter. You need a speically-wired cable in that case. Not hard to do, though. > did not do). But having the DSR signal is useful to detect if someone=20 Are there really no DEC RS232 ports with hardware flow control. I am very suprised... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Aug 15 13:33:56 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2010 19:33:56 +0100 (BST) Subject: Terminals... In-Reply-To: <4C674255.2080904@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Aug 14, 10 09:26:45 pm Message-ID: <m1Oki20-000J48C@p850ug1> > > On 8/14/10 8:14 PM, William Donzelli wrote: > > IBM certainly played the standard violation game as well, but somehow > > the DE9 serial issue is no big deal. Order or make cable Z, and the > > problem is solved. > > DE-9 serial ports!! *spit* If EE-9s were the only non-standard serial ports I had to deal with, I would be happy. But I've got them on DB25s, DE9s, DC37s (!) (4 poirtson one connector..), 5 pin quincuncial DIN plugs, 8 pin DIN plugs, 8 pin mini-DINs (and no, not the Mac version), 3-contact jack plugs, 4 pin 2mm headers, 10 pin 2mm headers (2 different versions), 50 pin microribbons, 36 pin microribbons, various PCB card edge conenctors etc, etc, etc. But actually, I've had many worse thigns to sort out. Mostly it's justr a matter of matching up signals... > So yes, all over the industry we have connector confusion problems > primarily because people refuse to pay attention to what they're doing. > I'd dearly love to see 120V AC power delivered on 1/8" headphone jack > for a few years...just to clean up the gene pool a bit. The first problem is that jack plugs (as we call them) tend to monetarily short when plugged in or pulled out... I have no idea what the flashover voltage of such a connector is, but I am likely to measure it jsut to see... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Aug 15 13:37:15 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2010 19:37:15 +0100 (BST) Subject: Terminals... In-Reply-To: <E1OkSKi-0005BT-NE@shell.xmission.com> from "Richard" at Aug 14, 10 07:48:20 pm Message-ID: <m1Oki59-000J3yC@p850ug1> > It doesn't help that these two different roles differ in their acronym > by only a single letter that sounds almost identical when pronounced > out. 'Charlie' doesn't sound a bit like 'Tango' to my ears... Going very off-topic., the one I find worry is that (in the UK, at least), medical doctors use 'hypo-' to mean 'too low' and 'hyper-' to mean 'too high'. Those do sound very similar, and the consequences of getting it wrong are a lot worse than having to re-wire a DB25... -tony From cclist at sydex.com Sun Aug 15 14:02:30 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2010 12:02:30 -0700 Subject: Static RAM chip source (& S-100 related questions...) In-Reply-To: <AANLkTik0k2J_KDj6p3chkipmDUORK8iHnOK8Zkm_aTro@mail.gmail.com> References: <4C67464B.8090303@mail.msu.edu>, <4C67170B.21415.2C3497D@cclist.sydex.com>, <AANLkTik0k2J_KDj6p3chkipmDUORK8iHnOK8Zkm_aTro@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4C67D756.21022.B36B36@cclist.sydex.com> On 15 Aug 2010 at 10:12, Glen Slick wrote: > One other thing that might help the situation is that the 2147 enters > an automatic power-down mode when the CE# input is at a high level. > For example the datasheet for the CY2147-35 says the max operating > current is 125ma while the max standby current is 25ma. > > Do MM5257 parts enter a standby mode when not selected? I don't have > a datasheet handy. Which would draw more current total, two banks of > MM5257 parts, or two banks of CY2147 parts where at least one of the > two banks should be in standby mode? If the 5257 parts are like the TMS4044 parts, standy is entered by reducing Vcc to 2.4V. Otherwise, maximum operating power dissipation is given as 303 mW. I somehow doubt that the memory board in question has the smarts to drop Vcc. There also exist CMOS versions of the same chip--the Motorola MCM146504, the Harris HM6504 or the Intersil IM6504 is one such, with a standby power of 10mW. These are the same speed (450nsec) as the TMS4044s. So more grist for your mill... --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sun Aug 15 14:14:03 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2010 12:14:03 -0700 Subject: Static RAM chip source (& S-100 related questions...) In-Reply-To: <AANLkTik0k2J_KDj6p3chkipmDUORK8iHnOK8Zkm_aTro@mail.gmail.com> References: <4C67464B.8090303@mail.msu.edu>, <4C67170B.21415.2C3497D@cclist.sydex.com>, <AANLkTik0k2J_KDj6p3chkipmDUORK8iHnOK8Zkm_aTro@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4C67DA0B.24984.BDFD73@cclist.sydex.com> Another option is the InMOS IMS1203 CMOS SRAM. Same pinout (it's a JEDEC standard, so other examples probably abound), fast (45 nsec) and low power (80/15 mA active/standby current). Shame that you need the 4K parts. I have a whole potload of the 16K 20-pin parts. FWIW, Chuck From jws at jwsss.com Sun Aug 15 04:08:47 2010 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2010 02:08:47 -0700 Subject: Logic analyzer pods Message-ID: <4C67AE9F.7020109@jwsss.com> I know this may be a long stretch, but one almost never sees logic analyzer pods on ebay, usually someone with the box who is way too proud of it. Here is an auction for some K100D pods, and if you look at the other auctions there are others, I think. Thought I'd pass it along for those interested, since older logic analyzers are pretty useful for the people on the list. 130410451946 They are also "Buy it now" so first come first served if the price isn't too high for you. Jim From biblioamy at gmail.com Sun Aug 15 10:10:12 2010 From: biblioamy at gmail.com (Amy Murray) Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2010 09:10:12 -0600 Subject: Osborne 1 microcomputer + software available Message-ID: <AANLkTikmcYdJts25eMpNo2EYrs8ySNOsj7FzHJXVsNdy@mail.gmail.com> I have an Osborne 1 Microcomputer with software available, as described below, for free or just pay shipping if it needs to be shipped. I was informed I could post a listing on the Classiccmp site by just sending this email. I need to find an interested home for it! Thanks in advance for your help if you can. Osborne 1 computer + software pay shipping only Osborne 1 Computer, 1981, the "first commercially successful portable microcomputer" (Wikipedia). We are the second owners. Last we checked, several years ago, it runs perfectly. Software included: CP/M tm V2.2 System & Utility copyright 1981 by Digital Research Wordstar/Mailmerge Version 2.26 copyright 1981 by MicroPro Int. CBasic/MBasic copyright 1981 by Microsoft Supercalc v1.12 copyright 1982 by Sorcim Corp. Personal Pearl copyright 1982 Relational Systems version 1.02 (all 7 diskettes, Disk 2 Design Reports, Disk 3 Install Forms and Reports, Disk 4 Enter Data, Disk 5 Produce Reports, Disk 6 File Maintenance, Disk 7 Startup Disk) AMCALL copyright MicroCALL Services version 2.06 ~ Amy (Longmont, Colorado) From dgari at msn.com Sun Aug 15 14:55:54 2010 From: dgari at msn.com (David Gari) Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2010 12:55:54 -0700 Subject: transistor replacements In-Reply-To: <mailman.3.1281891602.37927.cctalk@classiccmp.org> References: <mailman.3.1281891602.37927.cctalk@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <COL120-W311D541461117B82812177BC9A0@phx.gbl> Assuming they are complementary, these oughta work: http://www.nteinc.com/specs/100to199/pdf/nte188.pdf _ From ajp166 at verizon.net Sun Aug 15 15:58:19 2010 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2010 16:58:19 -0400 Subject: Static RAM chip source (& S-100 related questions...) In-Reply-To: <4C67D756.21022.B36B36@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4C67464B.8090303@mail.msu.edu>, <4C67170B.21415.2C3497D@cclist.sydex.com>, <AANLkTik0k2J_KDj6p3chkipmDUORK8iHnOK8Zkm_aTro@mail.gmail.com> <4C67D756.21022.B36B36@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4C6854EB.3060307@verizon.net> On 08/15/2010 03:02 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 15 Aug 2010 at 10:12, Glen Slick wrote: > > >> One other thing that might help the situation is that the 2147 enters >> an automatic power-down mode when the CE# input is at a high level. >> For example the datasheet for the CY2147-35 says the max operating >> current is 125ma while the max standby current is 25ma. >> >> Do MM5257 parts enter a standby mode when not selected? I don't have >> a datasheet handy. Which would draw more current total, two banks of >> MM5257 parts, or two banks of CY2147 parts where at least one of the >> two banks should be in standby mode? >> > If the 5257 parts are like the TMS4044 parts, standy is entered by > reducing Vcc to 2.4V. Otherwise, maximum operating power dissipation > is given as 303 mW. I somehow doubt that the memory board in > question has the smarts to drop Vcc. > > There also exist CMOS versions of the same chip--the Motorola > MCM146504, the Harris HM6504 or the Intersil IM6504 is one such, with > a standby power of 10mW. These are the same speed (450nsec) as the > TMS4044s. So more grist for your mill... > > --Chuck > > > Watch out, Some parts like the 6504 are not fully static and the logic is somewhat dynamic with the transition of CS performing the precharge of the gating logic around a static cell. That means you must cycle CS for every address change withing a read/write or RMW cycle. Allison From cclist at sydex.com Sun Aug 15 18:43:29 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2010 16:43:29 -0700 Subject: Static RAM chip source (& S-100 related questions...) In-Reply-To: <4C6854EB.3060307@verizon.net> References: <4C67464B.8090303@mail.msu.edu>, <4C67D756.21022.B36B36@cclist.sydex.com>, <4C6854EB.3060307@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4C681931.12813.1B4A966@cclist.sydex.com> On 15 Aug 2010 at 16:58, allison wrote: > Watch out, > Some parts like the 6504 are not fully static and the > logic is somewhat dynamic with the transition of CS > performing the precharge of the gating logic around a > static cell. That means you must cycle CS for every > address change withing a read/write or RMW cycle. I think you're saying that the address is latched on the edge of the enable/chip select line. That's probably okay in this situation, I'm guessing. --Chuck From mtapley at swri.edu Sun Aug 15 19:08:26 2010 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2010 19:08:26 -0500 Subject: EPROM programming (27c160's) Message-ID: <p06240806c88e2859ae7d@[192.168.1.116]> Tony, At 19:37 -0500 8/13/10, Alexandre wrote: > I think I still have an image of the old site on my desktop, mail me if >you want that Alexandre's link, http://web.archive.org/web/20080621113020/http://www.willem.org/ points to a page which my machine loads only glacially, apparently because the server isn't responding fast. Meantime, my Googling for "willem programmer" produced this page: http://www.sivava.com/ which describes a commercially available EPROM programmer. Packages start at US$39. Many adaptors are available, prices $3 - $70. Driver software appears to be Windows only (9x - XP). The programmer looks like a single free-standing circuit board, ~9 IC's plus a lot of sockets including a DIP ZIF socket. USB power, "DB25" data cable (!). Ah, reading further, there's an AC/DC power adaptor as well, so I guess you don't need a PC with both USB and Serial. I think the two pages are talking about the same thing, or at least different versions of the same thing. I'm not sure about that. Hope this helps! -- - Mark 210-379-4635 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Large Asteroids headed toward planets inhabited by beings that don't have technology adequate to stop them: Think of it as Evolution in Fast-Forward. From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Sun Aug 15 19:37:13 2010 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2010 20:37:13 -0400 Subject: Greetings fellow classiccmp'ers In-Reply-To: <4C5C011D.1070701@compsys.to> References: <20100801195510.C7FAD1E0229@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> <4C5C011D.1070701@compsys.to> Message-ID: <4C688839.4020708@compsys.to> >Jerome H. Fine wrote: > >Tim Shoppa wrote: > >> Having recently migrated all the stuff on *.trailing-edge.com to a 2010 >> era server (as opposed to the 2000 era server it was on - previous >> to that it had been on an Alpha with VMS, and previous to that it >> had been on a VAX with VMS) with >> fresh installs of all the software I was pleasantly >> surprised with the advances that have been made in apache and mailman >> configuration over time especially with respect to virtual domains etc. >> In particular the Ubuntu distribution was very straightforward to >> deal with... >> after I had adopted to the more modern configuration techniques. >> >> And spamassassin can be better integrated with postfix and mailman than >> in the past, to the point where the obvious spams never have to make it >> to a moderator's mailbox or turn up as a bogus request to the admin >> address. >> >> I'm not sure you need to stage through an intermediate platform, BTW. >> Just bite the bullet and go to the final platform. Unless you really >> enjoy installing and configuring everything twice. Although I was >> pleasantly surprised with the new Apache etc. configuration methods >> I still wouldn't want to do it twice. > > Can you let us know the new address of those files? > > In particular, I was impressed with the stuff at: > ftp://ftp.trailing-edge.com/pub > but it no longer responds. Are those files available elsewhere and I > am just looking in the wrong place? Hi Tim, I am not sure if you did something in response to my inquiry or the files were there all along. However, I am now able to access that site once again. THANK YOU!! There are two comprehensive CD based collections of RT-11 binary distributions with both an ISO directory and several RT-11 directories (in some respects similar to the RT-11 Freeware CD). On the other hand, both CD images were compressed with "zip" rather than "bz2". If you would also be inclined to host then and would prefer to have them compressed using "bz2", I could certainly do that and send them to you via the "incoming" directory (if I do not require a password, etc.). Please let me know. Otherwise, I already have a file with the MD5 values for the "zip" compressed versions along with the MD5 values for the actual uncompressed ISO CD images. I attached the file with those MD5 values to an e-mail I sent to Jay West to be included with the compressed "zip" files of the two compressed CD images. Jerome Fine From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Sun Aug 15 19:58:03 2010 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2010 17:58:03 -0700 Subject: IMSAI 8080 power supply ratings... Message-ID: <4C688D1B.5030008@mail.msu.edu> Hi all -- So the recent discussion of static RAM and the power consumption thereof has lead me to figure out what the approximate rating for my IMSAI's power supply is, before I inadvertently overload it. I have an IMSAI manual that describes the PS-28U as having a rating of 28A on the 7V supply, and 4.5 on the +/-13.5V supplies. Unfortunately, the PS-28U does not appear to be the supply I have fitted in my IMSAI, based on the component descriptions, schematics, and pictures in the manual. I'm unable to find schematics or a manual for any other IMSAI 8080 power supply other than the PS-28U. I have a picture of my IMSAI's power supply at: http://yahozna.dyndns.org/scratch/imsai/IMG_0244.JPG. It contains a 17,000uF, a 12,000uF, and a 95,000uF capacitor. (And a very large transformer as well.) Any IMSAI experts out there familiar with this particular variant? (And thanks again for all the help with the static RAM. I have been offered some 2147s locally and with those, hopefully I'll be able to get the 32K board running again...) Thanks, Josh From tosteve at yahoo.com Sun Aug 15 20:14:15 2010 From: tosteve at yahoo.com (steven stengel) Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2010 18:14:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Tons of tapes and diskpacks for TI-990 computer Message-ID: <114682.78276.qm@web110601.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Allan Frogger in Central California writes: "" I have DS5 diskpacks (5 MB) and DS80 diskpacks (80MB) (heavy copper, 12"? platters, in polycarbonate shells) for a TI 990 computer, as well as extra terminals with screen and keyboards. I also have reel tapes for TI and many 8" floppies, many in original boxes - they are all functional as I used them on my TI990 system before I moved. "" See pictures here: http://popbottlecaps.com/temp/ti-990.html Contact Allen at <allanfrogger at yahoo.com> if interested From jack.rubin at ameritech.net Sun Aug 15 22:20:14 2010 From: jack.rubin at ameritech.net (Jack Rubin) Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2010 22:20:14 -0500 Subject: looking for monitor and cable for DECmate II Message-ID: <A5AA6234CAC446AD939C9F82473882E0@obie> I just acquired a nice DECMate II but it lacks monitor and cable. Can anyone help me with a VR201 monitor (shared with Rainbow and DEC Pro series) and/or the special DA-15 cable which provides both video and keyboard connection to the main box. Please reply directly offlist. Thanks, Jack From geoffr at zipcon.net Sun Aug 15 22:54:08 2010 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoffrey Reed) Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2010 20:54:08 -0700 Subject: Willem programmers: was -Re: EPROM programming (27c160's) In-Reply-To: <p06240806c88e2859ae7d@[192.168.1.116]> Message-ID: <C88E0470.26D3F%geoffr@zipcon.net> Supposedly the USB schematics were released at one point (true USB using a FPGA for programmer logic) but I have yet to find them anywhere. From cclist at sydex.com Mon Aug 16 00:34:25 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2010 22:34:25 -0700 Subject: IMSAI 8080 power supply ratings... In-Reply-To: <4C688D1B.5030008@mail.msu.edu> References: <4C688D1B.5030008@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <4C686B71.7022.2F5F356@cclist.sydex.com> On 15 Aug 2010 at 17:58, Josh Dersch wrote: > So the recent discussion of static RAM and the power consumption > thereof has lead me to figure out what the approximate rating for my > IMSAI's power supply is, before I inadvertently overload it. I have > an IMSAI manual that describes the PS-28U as having a rating of 28A on > the 7V supply, and 4.5 on the +/-13.5V supplies. Unfortunately, the > PS-28U does not appear to be the supply I have fitted in my IMSAI, > based on the component descriptions, schematics, and pictures in the > manual. I'm unable to find schematics or a manual for any other IMSAI > 8080 power supply other than the PS-28U. I think you misunderstand. I was referring to the on-board regulator for the RAM card--but with 8 chips, you might need 100-200 mA more. You're probably okay, unless your regulator is on the hairy edge of failure. --Chuck From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Mon Aug 16 01:10:16 2010 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2010 23:10:16 -0700 Subject: IMSAI 8080 power supply ratings... In-Reply-To: <4C686B71.7022.2F5F356@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4C688D1B.5030008@mail.msu.edu> <4C686B71.7022.2F5F356@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4C68D648.20500@mail.msu.edu> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 15 Aug 2010 at 17:58, Josh Dersch wrote: > > >> So the recent discussion of static RAM and the power consumption >> thereof has lead me to figure out what the approximate rating for my >> IMSAI's power supply is, before I inadvertently overload it. I have >> an IMSAI manual that describes the PS-28U as having a rating of 28A on >> the 7V supply, and 4.5 on the +/-13.5V supplies. Unfortunately, the >> PS-28U does not appear to be the supply I have fitted in my IMSAI, >> based on the component descriptions, schematics, and pictures in the >> manual. I'm unable to find schematics or a manual for any other IMSAI >> 8080 power supply other than the PS-28U. >> > > I think you misunderstand. I was referring to the on-board regulator > for the RAM card--but with 8 chips, you might need 100-200 mA more. > You're probably okay, unless your regulator is on the hairy edge of > failure. > > --Chuck > No, no -- I understood that. I'm just curious as to the amount of hardware the power supply in my IMSAI will reasonably support. Right now I don't have too much installed the system (CPU, 2x8K static RAM) as I'm just working through getting things working one board at a time. I'm planning on expanding it a fair bit (video, I/O, floppy, more RAM). I just don't want to overload it -- I have the 20-slot backplane... I'm guessing loading up every slot with a 32K Static RAM card would probably not be a good thing ;). - Josh From cclist at sydex.com Mon Aug 16 01:20:38 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2010 23:20:38 -0700 Subject: IMSAI 8080 power supply ratings... In-Reply-To: <4C68D648.20500@mail.msu.edu> References: <4C688D1B.5030008@mail.msu.edu>, <4C686B71.7022.2F5F356@cclist.sydex.com>, <4C68D648.20500@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <4C687646.2667.3204293@cclist.sydex.com> On 15 Aug 2010 at 23:10, Josh Dersch wrote: > No, no -- I understood that. I'm just curious as to the amount of > hardware the power supply in my IMSAI will reasonably support. Right > now I don't have too much installed the system (CPU, 2x8K static RAM) > as I'm just working through getting things working one board at a > time. I'm planning on expanding it a fair bit (video, I/O, floppy, > more RAM). I just don't want to overload it -- I have the 20-slot > backplane... I'm guessing loading up every slot with a 32K Static RAM > card would probably not be a good thing ;). Probably not, but you're not going to. Generally speaking, the IMSAI power supplies were pretty generous; not at all like the MITS supplies. I wouldn't worry. --Chuck From teoz at neo.rr.com Mon Aug 16 02:19:54 2010 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 03:19:54 -0400 Subject: Since when are magazines so expensive? Message-ID: <3FED4B441CB84C978A64D2411B973AAC@dell8300> http://cgi.ebay.com/MacWorld-First-Issue-1984_W0QQitemZ110571651570 From silent700 at gmail.com Mon Aug 16 11:01:17 2010 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 11:01:17 -0500 Subject: Since when are magazines so expensive? In-Reply-To: <3FED4B441CB84C978A64D2411B973AAC@dell8300> References: <3FED4B441CB84C978A64D2411B973AAC@dell8300> Message-ID: <AANLkTi=cQiDhrQ5yNjUVuCBiz+UO1ZXhvmYcsmEvMLAh@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, Aug 16, 2010 at 2:19 AM, Teo Zenios <teoz at neo.rr.com> wrote: > http://cgi.ebay.com/MacWorld-First-Issue-1984_W0QQitemZ110571651570 I don't collect MacWorld, but I regularly see Byte #1 go for over $100. Then once in a while one will slip by for $10 (like when I grabbed mine ;) -- jht From curt at atarimuseum.com Mon Aug 16 11:16:52 2010 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 12:16:52 -0400 Subject: Since when are magazines so expensive? In-Reply-To: <AANLkTi=cQiDhrQ5yNjUVuCBiz+UO1ZXhvmYcsmEvMLAh@mail.gmail.com> References: <3FED4B441CB84C978A64D2411B973AAC@dell8300> <AANLkTi=cQiDhrQ5yNjUVuCBiz+UO1ZXhvmYcsmEvMLAh@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4C696474.6040000@atarimuseum.com> Been happening a lot lately, I'm even seeing common PC mags from the 80's being offered for higher then they should prices... whether they sell at those prices all of the time, is another story. Jason T wrote: > On Mon, Aug 16, 2010 at 2:19 AM, Teo Zenios <teoz at neo.rr.com> wrote: > >> http://cgi.ebay.com/MacWorld-First-Issue-1984_W0QQitemZ110571651570 >> > > I don't collect MacWorld, but I regularly see Byte #1 go for over > $100. Then once in a while one will slip by for $10 (like when I > grabbed mine ;) > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 9.0.851 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3075 - Release Date: 08/16/10 02:35:00 > > From silent700 at gmail.com Mon Aug 16 11:41:03 2010 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 11:41:03 -0500 Subject: Since when are magazines so expensive? In-Reply-To: <4C696474.6040000@atarimuseum.com> References: <3FED4B441CB84C978A64D2411B973AAC@dell8300> <AANLkTi=cQiDhrQ5yNjUVuCBiz+UO1ZXhvmYcsmEvMLAh@mail.gmail.com> <4C696474.6040000@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <AANLkTi=A0C8UZLoAPANgMqCit0YLkySpBAORYC+5A1Ar@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, Aug 16, 2010 at 11:16 AM, Curt @ Atari Museum <curt at atarimuseum.com> wrote: > Been happening a lot lately, I'm even seeing common PC mags from the 80's > being offered for higher then they should prices... Yep, lots of those, being ebay and all. This MacWorld has actually been bid up that high, though. Five bidders, too, so possibly even not a scam! From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Aug 16 12:10:18 2010 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 10:10:18 -0700 Subject: Since when are magazines so expensive? In-Reply-To: <AANLkTi=A0C8UZLoAPANgMqCit0YLkySpBAORYC+5A1Ar@mail.gmail.com> References: <3FED4B441CB84C978A64D2411B973AAC@dell8300> <AANLkTi=cQiDhrQ5yNjUVuCBiz+UO1ZXhvmYcsmEvMLAh@mail.gmail.com> <4C696474.6040000@atarimuseum.com> <AANLkTi=A0C8UZLoAPANgMqCit0YLkySpBAORYC+5A1Ar@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <p06240823c88f215240c5@[192.168.1.199]> At 11:41 AM -0500 8/16/10, Jason T wrote: >On Mon, Aug 16, 2010 at 11:16 AM, Curt @ Atari Museum ><curt at atarimuseum.com> wrote: >> Been happening a lot lately, I'm even seeing common PC mags from the 80's >> being offered for higher then they should prices... > >Yep, lots of those, being ebay and all. This MacWorld has actually >been bid up that high, though. Five bidders, too, so possibly even >not a scam! Makes me tempted to find my copy. I'm glad that wasn't one of the magazines I donated to the History Library. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | From useddec at gmail.com Mon Aug 16 13:07:02 2010 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 13:07:02 -0500 Subject: Terminals... In-Reply-To: <4C67A801.9010806@neurotica.com> References: <mailman.20.1281656478.1006.cctalk@classiccmp.org> <4C6501DD.4030309@softjar.se> <AANLkTikXTL5SACxgRJBXMNiXAKP9zeFUiUBUXWW_B29P@mail.gmail.com> <AANLkTimPQGnCTT8YTDNoUuiSERsqubPsuAvdQhoGPfDX@mail.gmail.com> <4C67A801.9010806@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <AANLkTin84ePzbUkrkDdhO0=byycjqFSbPSDuCiCbAeQz@mail.gmail.com> Sorry- still on too many pain pills. attached cords were for US, 120v, no cord were international. paul On Sun, Aug 15, 2010 at 3:40 AM, Dave McGuire <mcguire at neurotica.com> wrote: > On 8/14/10 10:23 PM, Paul Anderson wrote: > > I think the US version has the attached power cord, and the international > > one has an attached power cord. > > Um. Huh? ;) > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire > Port Charlotte, FL > From RichA at vulcan.com Mon Aug 16 13:18:30 2010 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 11:18:30 -0700 Subject: [gopher] OT: Anyone interested in text editor programming? (fwd) In-Reply-To: <201008150634.o7F6YW25015892@floodgap.com> References: <CC28F43ED4708D489ABCF68D06D7F556040A5CC9E1@505DENALI.corp.vnw.com> from Rich Alderson at "Aug 14, 10 05:42:40 pm" <201008150634.o7F6YW25015892@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <CC28F43ED4708D489ABCF68D06D7F556040A5CC9E5@505DENALI.corp.vnw.com> From: Cameron Kaiser Sent: Saturday, August 14, 2010 11:35 PM >> $DEITY, I hate children who think that because something is unknown to them >> it must be unknown to all the world! > Rich, I can tell you feel strongly, but I had never heard of Video TECO > either, so is republishing it and bringing it up to date not a good thing? > I'm sort of regretting posting Nick's announcement here, given the response > has been generally negative. Cameron, there is a Usenet newsgroup called alt.lang.teco, as well as those devoted to various DEC architectures and those devoted to Emacs in all its variants, and even alt.folklore.computers (to the extent that it hasn't been ruined). Nick does not appear to have asked in any of these fora about the existence of video-friendly TECO implementations. Further, the code he is publishing *AND PUTTING UNDER LICENSE* belongs to someone else, someone with whom he states he has not been able to contact. That is so far from OK that I am surprised that I'm the only one who has had anything to say about it (in public?). I thought about going off and registering on the DebIan list in question, but I hate to drop in on a list just to scold someone who presumably ought to know better. If you want to forward my comments, feel free to do so, as long as you scrub the e-mail address (work) and substitute my Linux mailing lists address "linux at alderson.users.panix.com" (personal) before doing so. Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.PDPplanet.org/ http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 16 12:54:05 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 18:54:05 +0100 (BST) Subject: Logic analyzer pods In-Reply-To: <4C67AE9F.7020109@jwsss.com> from "jim s" at Aug 15, 10 02:08:47 am Message-ID: <m1Ol3t0-000J3uC@p850ug1> > > I know this may be a long stretch, but one almost never sees logic > analyzer pods on ebay, usually someone with the box who is way too proud > of it. > > Here is an auction for some K100D pods, and if you look at the other > auctions there are others, I think. Thank you!. I have a K100D, without any official pods. Theee are not the standard ones (which were indivdual comparator modules for each channel, 10 wired to a 50 pin socket), but certainly look useful. The BIN was reasoanble IMHO, so I did. I am just waiting for the cost of the postage... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 16 13:00:19 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 19:00:19 +0100 (BST) Subject: EPROM programming (27c160's) In-Reply-To: <p06240806c88e2859ae7d@[192.168.1.116]> from "Mark Tapley" at Aug 15, 10 07:08:26 pm Message-ID: <m1Ol3z0-000J3xC@p850ug1> > > Tony, > > At 19:37 -0500 8/13/10, Alexandre wrote: > > I think I still have an image of the old site on my desktop, mail me if > >you want that > > Alexandre's link, > > http://web.archive.org/web/20080621113020/http://www.willem.org/ > > points to a page which my machine loads only glacially, apparently > because the server isn't responding fast. > > Meantime, my Googling for "willem programmer" produced this page: > > http://www.sivava.com/ > > which describes a commercially available EPROM programmer. Packages > start at US$39. Many adaptors are available, prices $3 - $70. Driver > software appears to be Windows only (9x - XP). The programmer looks I am puzzled... This was sent personally to me, but I don;t see how I could make use of the product described. I don't have a Windows machine (this is not time to start that flamefest, all I wil lsay is that for what _I_ want to do, on the machines _I_ own, there are better choices than Windows for the OS. Other people with different machines and requirements may find different OSes suit them better). In any case, EPROM programming is not the problem. Most EPROM programming specs are published, and certianly for 'classic' EPROMs, the ones from differnent manufacturers progam the same way. It's the PALs/GALs/ PLDs/fuse PROMs that are the big problem.. > like a single free-standing circuit board, ~9 IC's plus a lot of > sockets including a DIP ZIF socket. USB power, "DB25" data cable (!). > Ah, reading further, there's an AC/DC power adaptor as well, so I > guess you don't need a PC with both USB and Serial. Are you sure it's serial? Without seing it, and without knowing what the ICs are, I can't really make a sensible comment, but I would have thought it was easier to use the parallel port for something like this -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 16 13:13:42 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 19:13:42 +0100 (BST) Subject: looking for monitor and cable for DECmate II In-Reply-To: <A5AA6234CAC446AD939C9F82473882E0@obie> from "Jack Rubin" at Aug 15, 10 10:20:14 pm Message-ID: <m1Ol4Bx-000J48C@p850ug1> > > I just acquired a nice DECMate II but it lacks monitor and cable. Can = > anyone > help me with a VR201 monitor (shared with Rainbow and DEC Pro series) = > and/or > the special DA-15 cable which provides both video and keyboard = > connection to > the main box. > > Please reply directly offlist. I've sent a copy to you off-list, but I see no reason why this shouldn't be discussed on the list too. The VR201 is a farily standard TV-rate (RS-170) composite video monitor. The only odd features relate to the DA15 connector -- it has no internal PSU (it gets 12V DC over this connector) and it includes the keyboard socket (simply connected to pins on the DA15) Therefore, it's not hard to make up a cable to use any standard composite video monitor. I'll include the notes I made on the 'universal Rainbow video cable' which is overkill for you (it includes the colour monitor sockets too, which won't work AFAIN without a colour video option PCB). If you just wire up the keeyboard socket (a 4-pin modular socket) to the DA15 and a suitable coaxial (RCA phone or BNC) to monochrome ouptu on the DA15, it should work fine. That is, wire the keybaord to pins 6, 8, 14, 15 and the monitor to 12 (signale) and 4 (ground) -tony A universal DEC Rainbow video cable ----------------------------------- This cable allows almost all possible monitor combinations to be used with the Rainbow (see below). Connections : ------------- Rainbow end (DA15-S) 1 >----------+---------+-- Blue Gnd 9 >-------O---------O-- Blue 2 >----------+---------+-- Green Gnd 10 >-------O---------O-- Green 3 >----------+---------+-- Red Gnd 11 >-------O---------O-- Red 4 >----------+---------+-- Mono Gnd 12 >-------O---------O-- Mono 5 >----+ 13 >-+ +------------ Power Gnd 6 >----------+------------ Key Gnd 14 >-------------------- From Key 7 >----------------------- Power 12V 15 >-------------------- To Key 8 >----------------------- Key 12V Box-mounted connectors : VR201 (DA15-P) 1 o 9 o 2 o 10 o 3 o 11 o 4 o-----------+--------+--- Mono Gnd 12 o--------O--------O--- Mono 5 o-------+---------------- Power Gnd 13 o | 6 o-------+---------------- Key Gnd 14 o--------------------- From Key 7 o------------------------ Power 12V 15 o--------------------- To Key 8 o------------------------ Key 12V Monitor BNCs : Red ( o )--------- Red Gnd | +----------- Red Green ( o )--------- Green Gnd | +----------- Green Blue ( o )--------- Blue Gnd | +----------- Blue Mono ( o )--------- Mono Gnd | +----------- Mono LK201 keyboard (RJ11-- front face view) ------- | | ----- ----- | | | | | | -- ^ ^ ^ ^-- | | | | From Key -----+ | | +----- To Key Key 12V----------+ +-------- Key Gnd Components : ------------ DA15S socket + hood (to fit Rainbow video connector) DA15P plug + jackposts (for VR201 connection) 4 off 75 Ohm BNC sockets (for monitor connections). You could use other connectors, like RCA phono, but BNC are standard. RJ11 socket, chassis mounting (for LK201 keyboard). Chassis mounting sockets of this type are very hard to find. I ended up making a bracket to clamp a PCB-mounting one to the panel Metal box of a suitable size to hold the above connectors (apart from the DA15S). 1m cable. At least 4 75 Ohm screened cores and 6 single wires. I used a 'unversal SCART cable' which has 6 75 ohm screened cores (I simply ignored 2 of them), a 4 way screened cable (I used this for the 4 keyboard connections) and 4 other wires (2 in parallel for each of Power 12V and Power Gnd). Possible monitor combinations : ------------------------------- 1) VR201 only This is pretty useless, but you can connect a VR201 mono monitor using the DEC lead to the DA15P on the box. Connect the LK201 keyboard to either the VR201 or the RJ11 on the box. 2) Standard composite mono monitor Connect monitor input to 'mono' BNC on the box. Connect LK201 to the RJ11 on the box. This works just like a VR201, but you can use any monitor 3) VR201 and separate mono graphics monitor Connect VR201 to DA15P. Connect LK201to either RJ11 on the box or to VR201. Connect second (composite) monitor to the 'green' BNC. You can use the dual monitor driver for GSX and have text on the VR201 and graphics on the second monitor 4) Two composite mono monitors Connect one to 'mono' BNC, other to 'green' BNC. Connect LK201 to RJ11 on box. Using the dual monitor driver, you get text on the first monitor and graphics on the second monitor 5) RGB (sync-on-green) colour monitor (e.g. VR241) Connect monitor inputs to BNCs as follows : Red - Red Green - Mono Blue - Blue. Connect LK201 to RJ11 on box. This gives the standard DEC color monitor connections giving green text and colour graphics using the colour monitor driver 6) RGB monitor and VR201 Connect VR201 to DA15P on box. Connect LK201 to RJ11 on box. Connect color monitor as follows Red - Red Green - Green Blue - Blue This gives separate text and colour graphics displays when used with the dual monitor driver 7) RGB monitor and composite mono monitor Connect mono monitor input to 'mono' BNC. Connect LK201 to RJ11. Connect colour monitor as follows Red - Red Green - Green Blue - Blue This gives separate text and colour graphics displays when used with the dual monitor driver From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Aug 16 13:42:44 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 11:42:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [gopher] OT: Anyone interested in text editor programming? (fwd) In-Reply-To: <CC28F43ED4708D489ABCF68D06D7F556040A5CC9E5@505DENALI.corp.vnw.com> from Rich Alderson at "Aug 16, 10 11:18:30 am" Message-ID: <201008161842.o7GIgi1i018306@floodgap.com> > > Rich, I can tell you feel strongly, but I had never heard of Video TECO > > either, so is republishing it and bringing it up to date not a good thing? > > I'm sort of regretting posting Nick's announcement here, given the response > > has been generally negative. > > Cameron, there is a Usenet newsgroup called alt.lang.teco, as well as those > devoted to various DEC architectures and those devoted to Emacs in all its > variants, and even alt.folklore.computers (to the extent that it hasn't been > ruined). Nick does not appear to have asked in any of these fora about the > existence of video-friendly TECO implementations. But must he? I'm sure there are billions of Commodore-related outlets that I don't know about. > Further, the code he is publishing *AND PUTTING UNDER LICENSE* belongs to > someone else, someone with whom he states he has not been able to contact. > That is so far from OK that I am surprised that I'm the only one who has > had anything to say about it (in public?). That's a valid point, I didn't notice that myself. I'll mention that to him. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Michael Jackson is [reverse] Pinocchio: more lies, less nose. -- Vanity Fair From technobug at comcast.net Mon Aug 16 14:20:17 2010 From: technobug at comcast.net (CRC) Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 12:20:17 -0700 Subject: Biomation K100D Logic Analyzers (Was: Logic analyzer pods) In-Reply-To: <mailman.3.1281978002.55358.cctalk@classiccmp.org> References: <mailman.3.1281978002.55358.cctalk@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <A637A09B-1C05-4BB8-A76F-B5AFC3A42DCF@comcast.net> I have a Biomation K100D along with its parts buddy available for pickup at 85704 (or 85003 in the near future). The unit worked the last time I used it and has a TTL probe set (K100/32). The parts buddy has a sick power supply. Shipping is sort of out of the question... On ASun, 15 Aug 2010 02:08:47 -0700, jim s <jws at jwsss.com> wrote: > I know this may be a long stretch, but one almost never sees logic > analyzer pods on ebay, usually someone with the box who is way too proud > of it. > > Here is an auction for some K100D pods, and if you look at the other > auctions there are others, I think. > > Thought I'd pass it along for those interested, since older logic > analyzers are pretty useful for the people on the list. [...] The probe sets for this model are easy to build. I put together a set when I picked up my first box and used it with PICK micros when I was inflicted with that madness. Subsequently I was given the set that accompanies the above unit(s). CRC From jack.rubin at ameritech.net Mon Aug 16 14:20:42 2010 From: jack.rubin at ameritech.net (Jack Rubin) Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 12:20:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: looking for monitor and cable for DECmate II In-Reply-To: <m1Ol4Bx-000J48C@p850ug1> References: <m1Ol4Bx-000J48C@p850ug1> Message-ID: <561451.84649.qm@web83703.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Thank you! ----- Original Message ---- > From: Tony Duell <ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk> > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Cc: jack.rubin at ameritech.net > Sent: Mon, August 16, 2010 1:13:42 PM > Subject: Re: looking for monitor and cable for DECmate II > > > > > I just acquired a nice DECMate II but it lacks monitor and cable. Can = > > anyone > > help me with a VR201 monitor (shared with Rainbow and DEC Pro series) = > > and/or > > the special DA-15 cable which provides both video and keyboard = > > connection to > > the main box. > > > > Please reply directly offlist. > > I've sent a copy to you off-list, but I see no reason why this shouldn't > be discussed on the list too. > > The VR201 is a farily standard TV-rate (RS-170) composite video monitor. > The only odd features relate to the DA15 connector -- it has no internal > PSU (it gets 12V DC over this connector) and it includes the keyboard > socket (simply connected to pins on the DA15) > > Therefore, it's not hard to make up a cable to use any standard composite > video monitor. I'll include the notes I made on the 'universal Rainbow > video cable' which is overkill for you (it includes the colour monitor > sockets too, which won't work AFAIN without a colour video option PCB). > If you just wire up the keeyboard socket (a 4-pin modular socket) to the > DA15 and a suitable coaxial (RCA phone or BNC) to monochrome ouptu on > the DA15, it should work fine. > > That is, wire the keybaord to pins 6, 8, 14, 15 and the monitor to 12 > (signale) and 4 (ground) > > -tony > > A universal DEC Rainbow video cable > ----------------------------------- > > This cable allows almost all possible monitor combinations to be used > with the Rainbow (see below). > > Connections : > ------------- > > Rainbow end (DA15-S) > > 1 >----------+---------+-- Blue Gnd > 9 >-------O---------O-- Blue > 2 >----------+---------+-- Green Gnd > 10 >-------O---------O-- Green > 3 >----------+---------+-- Red Gnd > 11 >-------O---------O-- Red > 4 >----------+---------+-- Mono Gnd > 12 >-------O---------O-- Mono > 5 >----+ > 13 >-+ +------------ Power Gnd > 6 >----------+------------ Key Gnd > 14 >-------------------- From Key > 7 >----------------------- Power 12V > 15 >-------------------- To Key > 8 >----------------------- Key 12V > > > > Box-mounted connectors : > > VR201 (DA15-P) > > 1 o > 9 o > 2 o > 10 o > 3 o > 11 o > 4 o-----------+--------+--- Mono Gnd > 12 o--------O--------O--- Mono > 5 o-------+---------------- Power Gnd > 13 o | > 6 o-------+---------------- Key Gnd > 14 o--------------------- From Key > 7 o------------------------ Power 12V > 15 o--------------------- To Key > 8 o------------------------ Key 12V > > Monitor BNCs : > > Red > ( o )--------- Red Gnd > | > +----------- Red > > Green > ( o )--------- Green Gnd > | > +----------- Green > > Blue > ( o )--------- Blue Gnd > | > +----------- Blue > > Mono > ( o )--------- Mono Gnd > | > +----------- Mono > > > LK201 keyboard (RJ11-- front face view) > > ------- > | | > ----- ----- > | | > | | > | | > -- ^ ^ ^ ^-- > | | | | > From Key -----+ | | +----- To Key > Key 12V----------+ +-------- Key Gnd > > > Components : > ------------ > > DA15S socket + hood (to fit Rainbow video connector) > > DA15P plug + jackposts (for VR201 connection) > > 4 off 75 Ohm BNC sockets (for monitor connections). You could use other > connectors, like RCA phono, but BNC are standard. > > RJ11 socket, chassis mounting (for LK201 keyboard). Chassis mounting > sockets of this type are very hard to find. I ended up making a bracket > to clamp a PCB-mounting one to the panel > > Metal box of a suitable size to hold the above connectors (apart from the > DA15S). > > 1m cable. At least 4 75 Ohm screened cores and 6 single wires. I used a > 'unversal SCART cable' which has 6 75 ohm screened cores (I simply > ignored 2 of them), a 4 way screened cable (I used this for the 4 > keyboard connections) and 4 other wires (2 in parallel for each of Power > 12V and Power Gnd). > > > Possible monitor combinations : > ------------------------------- > 1) VR201 only > This is pretty useless, but you can connect a VR201 mono monitor using > the DEC lead to the DA15P on the box. Connect the LK201 keyboard to > either the VR201 or the RJ11 on the box. > > 2) Standard composite mono monitor > Connect monitor input to 'mono' BNC on the box. Connect LK201 to the RJ11 > on the box. This works just like a VR201, but you can use any monitor > > 3) VR201 and separate mono graphics monitor > Connect VR201 to DA15P. Connect LK201to either RJ11 on the box or to > VR201. Connect second (composite) monitor to the 'green' BNC. You can use > the dual monitor driver for GSX and have text on the VR201 and graphics on > the second monitor > > 4) Two composite mono monitors > Connect one to 'mono' BNC, other to 'green' BNC. Connect LK201 to RJ11 on > box. Using the dual monitor driver, you get text on the first monitor and > graphics on the second monitor > > 5) RGB (sync-on-green) colour monitor (e.g. VR241) > Connect monitor inputs to BNCs as follows : > Red - Red > Green - Mono > Blue - Blue. > Connect LK201 to RJ11 on box. This gives the standard DEC color monitor > connections giving green text and colour graphics using the colour > monitor driver > > 6) RGB monitor and VR201 > Connect VR201 to DA15P on box. Connect LK201 to RJ11 on box. Connect > color monitor as follows > Red - Red > Green - Green > Blue - Blue > This gives separate text and colour graphics displays when used with the > dual monitor driver > > 7) RGB monitor and composite mono monitor > Connect mono monitor input to 'mono' BNC. Connect LK201 to RJ11. Connect > colour monitor as follows > Red - Red > Green - Green > Blue - Blue > This gives separate text and colour graphics displays when used with the > dual monitor driver > > From schoedel at kw.igs.net Mon Aug 16 14:33:46 2010 From: schoedel at kw.igs.net (schoedel at kw.igs.net) Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 15:33:46 -0400 Subject: [gopher] OT: Anyone interested in text editor programming? (fwd) In-Reply-To: <201008161842.o7GIgi1i018306@floodgap.com> References: <CC28F43ED4708D489ABCF68D06D7F556040A5CC9E5@505DENALI.corp.vnw.com> from Rich Alderson at Message-ID: <20100816192137.M85059@kw.igs.net> > > Further, the code he is publishing *AND PUTTING UNDER LICENSE* belongs to > > someone else, someone with whom he states he has not been able to contact. > > That is so far from OK that I am surprised that I'm the only one who has > > had anything to say about it (in public?). > > That's a valid point, I didn't notice that myself. I'll mention that > to him. You might also mention that the *author* of that version *already has* a sourceforge project for it, <http://videoteco.sourceforge.net/>, which is not terribly hard to find. -- Kevin Schoedel <schoedel at kw.igs.net> VA3TCS From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Mon Aug 16 15:04:16 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 17:04:16 -0300 Subject: EPROM programming (27c160's) References: <m1Ol3z0-000J3xC@p850ug1> Message-ID: <0dc901cb3d7e$579d95b0$0600000a@portajara> > I am puzzled... This was sent personally to me, but I don;t see how I > could make use of the product described. I don't have a Windows machine Maybe not the product, but surely the information The link I sent you has the schematic and sources of the software used with the programmer. It is an easy to build programmer, which uses the parallel port for comms and has some timmings configured and executed in hardware, so it is easy to adapt to anything that has a parallel port. Maybe you could use the info and adapt the software (which is tailored for windows, but has all the info how to drive the programmer) to run in a vax or anything you feel like :o) From brain at jbrain.com Mon Aug 16 19:34:14 2010 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 19:34:14 -0500 Subject: [gopher] OT: Anyone interested in text editor programming? (fwd) In-Reply-To: <201008161842.o7GIgi1i018306@floodgap.com> References: <201008161842.o7GIgi1i018306@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <4C69D906.3040808@jbrain.com> On 8/16/2010 1:42 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> >> ruined). Nick does not appear to have asked in any of these fora about the >> existence of video-friendly TECO implementations. >> > But must he? I'm sure there are billions of Commodore-related outlets that > I don't know about. > I think he should at least perform a cursory online search: http://www.google.com/search?q=Video+TECO provides a link the Sourceforge web site for the files (http://sourceforge.net/projects/videoteco/files/) off of one of the first few links. Now, it appears the same source is hosted twice on SF.net. >> Further, the code he is publishing *AND PUTTING UNDER LICENSE* belongs to >> someone else, someone with whom he states he has not been able to contact. >> That is so far from OK that I am surprised that I'm the only one who has >> had anything to say about it (in public?). >> > That's a valid point, I didn't notice that myself. I'll mention that to him. > > I think this is a larger point. Merely rehosting the files is potentially wasteful, but no worse (all things considered) than mirroring files. The act of re-releasing it under a new license (I'm assuming Paul did not originally release under the SleepyCat license) carries some legal implications if the "currently enlist[ed] developers" modify code thinking they are working under one license, and then later find out the code was not licensed under that license. I can understand your point, though. I doubt Nick meant to run afoul of so many specifics by doing this. He's no doubt just excited he found an important part of history. Still, I think he needs to understand the issues and the realities of open source licensing. Maybe you can lightly relate the issues and help him address the potential hosting duplication and the licensing issues. Jim -- Jim Brain, Brain Innovations (X) brain at jbrain.com Dabbling in WWW, Embedded Systems, Old CBM computers, and Good Times! Home: http://www.jbrain.com From marvin at west.net Mon Aug 16 21:07:29 2010 From: marvin at west.net (Marvin Johnston) Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 19:07:29 -0700 Subject: Since when are magazines so expensive? Message-ID: <4C69EEE1.9050509@west.net> curt at atarimuseum.com> wrote: > Been happening a lot lately, I'm even seeing common PC mags from > the 80's being offered for higher then they should prices... I was checking some pricing for the original PE Altair issues, and my eyes started to water when I saw them for about $1600 or so. I didn't check to see the number of bidders, but there were another batch of auctions after that where they were selling for $600 - $800 or so. Marvin From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Mon Aug 16 22:06:14 2010 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 20:06:14 -0700 Subject: Mostly OT: Looking for Manual/Schematic for Wavetek 1901C Message-ID: <4C69FCA6.9070506@mail.msu.edu> Snagged a Wavetek 1901C last week. This is a 12" oscilloscope display (X/Y+intensity input), I was hoping to use it as a point-plotting/vector display for a couple of little computer projects of mine. (Or maybe just hooking an Asteroids board up to it... :). It's in pretty good shape (has more screen burn than I think I've ever seen in a few spots, though.) I fixed a couple of cold solder joints and it's now mostly working, except something appears to be going slightly wrong in the Y deflection or amplification (it's getting clipped/distorted depending on the gain and input intensity). Anyone have a service manual or schematic for this thing or know good sources for such things? Thanks as always... Josh From csquared3 at tx.rr.com Mon Aug 16 12:22:11 2010 From: csquared3 at tx.rr.com (Charlie Carothers) Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 12:22:11 -0500 Subject: OT - sort of In-Reply-To: <m1OjyqF-000J4CC@p850ug1> References: <m1OjyqF-000J4CC@p850ug1> Message-ID: <4C6973C3.30102@tx.rr.com> Tony Duell wrote: >> My bad! The combination of poor quality text and my 71 year old eyes >> did me in again. :-) My daughter says if you turn it "just so" the Ms. >> Pac-Man copyright date does look like 1960, but it is actually 1980. > > OK, that makes more sense. > >> Yep, that makes a lot more sense. In 1960 I suppose about the only >> thing to play a computer game on would have been either a mini or a >> mainframe - actually I think it would have had to be a mainframe. Based >> on a *very* quick web search, the first PDP-8 shipped in 1964, so if >> that was the first mini... Some might say the IBM 1620, introduced in >> 1959, was a mini but I think that is a stretch. > > THe PDP1 was around in the very early 1960s IIRC. And Spacewar, of > course, ran on it. I would class that machine as a mini, but others may not. > > -tony > > I did not even know there *was* a PDP-1, which is not surprising I guess as it appears only about 50 were made. Various web sites give dates of 1959/60/61 for its production start. I of course found several interesting web sites about that machine, including http://pdp-1.computerhistory.org/pdp-1/ which I want to browse through in more detail. (Why do people insist on using dark gray characters on a light gray background??? Arrgggghhh!) From the pictures I've seen so far of the PDP-1, it does appear to be rather large to fit my mental image of a mini, FWIW (not much). In some ways I'm reminded of the SDS-910 which I believe was a bit smaller and I sort of always thought of as a "midi". Whatever that is... Later, Charlie C. From snhirsch at gmail.com Mon Aug 16 06:43:06 2010 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 07:43:06 -0400 (EDT) Subject: EPROM programming (27c160's) In-Reply-To: <p06240806c88e2859ae7d@[192.168.1.116]> References: <p06240806c88e2859ae7d@[192.168.1.116]> Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008160738050.3268@duo> On Sun, 15 Aug 2010, Mark Tapley wrote: > Tony, > > At 19:37 -0500 8/13/10, Alexandre wrote: >> I think I still have an image of the old site on my desktop, mail me if >> you want that > > Alexandre's link, > > http://web.archive.org/web/20080621113020/http://www.willem.org/ > > points to a page which my machine loads only glacially, apparently because > the server isn't responding fast. > > Meantime, my Googling for "willem programmer" produced this page: > > http://www.sivava.com/ > > which describes a commercially available EPROM programmer. Packages start at > US$39. Many adaptors are available, prices $3 - $70. Driver software appears > to be Windows only (9x - XP). The programmer looks like a single > free-standing circuit board, ~9 IC's plus a lot of sockets including a DIP > ZIF socket. USB power, "DB25" data cable (!). Ah, reading further, there's an > AC/DC power adaptor as well, so I guess you don't need a PC with both USB and > Serial. A word of warning about the sivava programmer: It's a modified Willem unit with its own special software. The developer forked the Willem project and never released his changes. Caused a lot of rancor. Also, forget about technical support. He is glad to take your money, but don't expect any questions or inquiries post-sale to be answered. Finally, the DC-DC converter used to derive Vpp for 21V EPROMs is underdesigned and unlikely to yield reliable results. There was a mod kit available from one of the Willem forum regulars that I ended up installing. All in all, the Sivava was more trouble than it was worth. There are eBay folks selling "genuine" (i.e. unmodified) Willem designs for less money. Steve -- From csquared3 at tx.rr.com Mon Aug 16 17:59:27 2010 From: csquared3 at tx.rr.com (Charlie Carothers) Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 17:59:27 -0500 Subject: PDP-1 movies Message-ID: <4C69C2CF.50503@tx.rr.com> Kind folks, I was just wondering if anyone else is able to view the 3 movies near the bottom of http://pdp-1.computerhistory.org/pdp-1/index.php?f=theme&s=2 For me, each one runs for a bit and then just stops. Windows task manager shows no internet activity at that point. If I bring up some other page and then go back there, the video gets a bit further each time before seizing up again. Perhaps if I had infinite patience I could eventually see them all the way through. Any idea what might cause this? Thanks, Charlie C. From jws at jwsss.com Tue Aug 17 00:03:43 2010 From: jws at jwsss.com (Jim Stephens) Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 22:03:43 -0700 Subject: [gopher] OT: Anyone interested in text editor programming? (fwd) In-Reply-To: <20100816192137.M85059@kw.igs.net> References: <CC28F43ED4708D489ABCF68D06D7F556040A5CC9E5@505DENALI.corp.vnw.com> from Rich Alderson at <20100816192137.M85059@kw.igs.net> Message-ID: <4C6A182F.7070409@jwsss.com> > >>> Further, the code he is publishing *AND PUTTING UNDER LICENSE* belongs to >>> someone else, someone with whom he states he has not been able to contact. >>> That is so far from OK that I am surprised that I'm the only one who has >>> had anything to say about it (in public?). >>> >> That's a valid point, I didn't notice that myself. I'll mention that >> to him. >> > You might also mention that the *author* of that version *already has* a > sourceforge project for it,<http://videoteco.sourceforge.net/>, which is not > terribly hard to find. > > > I was about to complain there were no files, but there are instructions on how to pull the files from cvs. Bad news is that neither of them compiled for me, and both for the same reason. From pontus at Update.UU.SE Tue Aug 17 04:42:54 2010 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 11:42:54 +0200 Subject: PDP-1 movies In-Reply-To: <4C69C2CF.50503@tx.rr.com> References: <4C69C2CF.50503@tx.rr.com> Message-ID: <20100817094254.GA23770@Update.UU.SE> On Mon, Aug 16, 2010 at 05:59:27PM -0500, Charlie Carothers wrote: > Kind folks, > I was just wondering if anyone else is able to view the 3 movies > near the bottom of > http://pdp-1.computerhistory.org/pdp-1/index.php?f=theme&s=2 > For me, each one runs for a bit and then just stops. Windows task > manager shows no internet activity at that point. If I bring up > some other page and then go back there, the video gets a bit further > each time before seizing up again. Perhaps if I had infinite > patience I could eventually see them all the way through. Any idea > what might cause this? > Thanks, > Charlie C. Same here, it stops after about a minute or so. Using firefox, windows vista and a recent version of adobe flash. /P From lproven at gmail.com Tue Aug 17 05:05:19 2010 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 11:05:19 +0100 Subject: OT - sort of In-Reply-To: <4C6973C3.30102@tx.rr.com> References: <m1OjyqF-000J4CC@p850ug1> <4C6973C3.30102@tx.rr.com> Message-ID: <AANLkTimPGui9k9D-uiizgLaA6GsaFK-+-C62hDTFxFi5@mail.gmail.com> On 16 August 2010 18:22, Charlie Carothers <csquared3 at tx.rr.com> wrote: > ?(Why do people insist on using dark gray characters on a light > gray background??? ?Arrgggghhh!) I found that site quite OK, myself, but if such things bother you, use Readability. http://lab.arc90.com/experiments/readability/ -- Liam Proven ? Profile & links: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Tue Aug 17 05:18:40 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 07:18:40 -0300 Subject: EPROM programming (27c160's) References: <p06240806c88e2859ae7d@[192.168.1.116]> <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008160738050.3268@duo> Message-ID: <10c201cb3df7$9c528020$0600000a@portajara> > A word of warning about the sivava programmer: It's a modified Willem > unit with its own special software. The developer forked the Willem > project and never released his changes. Caused a lot of rancor. http://www.py2bbs.qsl.br/willem_pcb45.php Modifying a regular willem for 4.5 software From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Aug 17 08:45:01 2010 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 08:45:01 -0500 Subject: NOS 33 ASR on eBay goes for $2358 Message-ID: <201008171350.o7HDoZa7054152@billY.EZWIND.NET> Forwarded from the Greenkeys list: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=190427439755 - John From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Aug 17 09:15:09 2010 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 09:15:09 -0500 Subject: Tons of tapes and diskpacks for TI-990 computer References: <114682.78276.qm@web110601.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <B3840E0A08AC4B5A91A1F2E8B9913E7A@osa.local> > Allan Frogger in Central California writes: > > "" I have DS5 diskpacks (5 MB) and DS80 diskpacks (80MB) (heavy copper, > 12"? platters, in polycarbonate shells) for a TI 990 computer, as well as > extra terminals with screen and keyboards. > > I also have reel tapes for TI and many 8" floppies, many in original > boxes - they are all functional as I used them on my TI990 system before I > moved. "" > > See pictures here: > http://popbottlecaps.com/temp/ti-990.html > > Contact Allen at <allanfrogger at yahoo.com> if interested I have a TI-900, but it's far down the list of machines I'm going to restore any time soon. As a result, I don't want to speak up for the media above but I hope whoever gets it makes it available at some point! J From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Aug 17 09:39:35 2010 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 09:39:35 -0500 Subject: Some DG 1200 progress Message-ID: <8533152230C141848C9A40294BE7C232@osa.local> I found some appropriate C&K switches (7101 and 7205) in a bin at the local surplus electronics scrap place, $1 each - so I have a usable front panel. This is good because I really didn't want to cannibalize another perfectly good front panel. I also got a jarring reminder when installing them that my soldering skills have degraded over time. Thank god for solder-wyck :) I cleaned up the backplane and all edge connectors with progold, tested out the power supplies, and the machine sprang to life. It would appear that all the bulbs except the LSbit in the address row work, which is good as the bulbs seem pretty unobtanium. I'll keep digging to find a source of spares for the 2176D. The bulbs have no markings on them, but they are fed via an 11v supply. It looks like they are tied to ground via a 1K resistor which I'm guessing is a warming circuit. I do find it rather odd that they are soldered in place instead of socketed, and since the bulbs have no metal at all - just two very thin leads coming right out of the glass - they seem pretty fragile. I can deposit and examine correctly to all 4 cpu registers, but memory is a different story. There are a few spots in memory that I tested (at 100o for the one 8K stack and at 20000o for the other 8K stack) where I can deposit and read back as expected. However, there are a fair number of spots where if I deposit a value, the machine goes into run mode when I hit the deposit switch. Doesn't that sound more like a cpu card issue than memory or front panel? Next task is to try and decipher the documentation for the backplane and the J & P connectors, so I can tell from the schematics where things are supposed to be and where they go. The fun begins! Best, J From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Aug 17 09:44:43 2010 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 07:44:43 -0700 Subject: Tons of tapes and diskpacks for TI-990 computer In-Reply-To: <B3840E0A08AC4B5A91A1F2E8B9913E7A@osa.local> References: <114682.78276.qm@web110601.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <B3840E0A08AC4B5A91A1F2E8B9913E7A@osa.local> Message-ID: <4C6AA05B.4010207@bitsavers.org> On 8/17/10 7:15 AM, Jay West wrote: > I hope whoever gets it makes it available at some point! > Bob Rosenbloom is probably the only person in a position right now to go after these. I have no time/space to do so. From ggs at shiresoft.com Tue Aug 17 11:11:05 2010 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 09:11:05 -0700 Subject: Defcon 18 Message-ID: <89D59703-5A91-4C03-9747-AE9D79D15A3C@shiresoft.com> While not normally of interest, I wanted to let folks know that a friend of mine (and fellow classiccmp'er) was at DefCon again this year. He's been going and taking various classic computers to show off (and get hacked). I received a call from him a week or so before DefCon asking if there was something "interesting" he could take as he didn't want to take the same stuff as last year. I offered up my large PDP-11/40 (3 racks worth...he added a tape drive). It was a hit. He had booted BSD 2.9 and gave out a guest password. He parted with "If you want 'root' you'll have to do that yourself". It was after all a hackers convention. 5 minutes later someone came up with a note with the password on it (they used his ancient Sparc to do a dictionary attack). Pictures of the machines are on Wired site here: http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2010/08/gallery-defcon-18/13/ DefCon's gallery is here: https://pics.defcon.org//showphoto.php?photo=743&title=retro-computing-1&cat=542 TTFN - Guy From legalize at xmission.com Tue Aug 17 11:39:03 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 10:39:03 -0600 Subject: Onyx2 cube Message-ID: <E1OlPBn-0005mf-MG@shell.xmission.com> Picked up an Onyx 2 cube from university surplus today for a lowball bid of $50. Yay! -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com/the-direct3d-graphics-pipeline/> Legalize Adulthood! <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com> From dgahling at hotmail.com Tue Aug 17 11:42:32 2010 From: dgahling at hotmail.com (Dan Gahlinger) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 12:42:32 -0400 Subject: Onyx2 cube In-Reply-To: <E1OlPBn-0005mf-MG@shell.xmission.com> References: <E1OlPBn-0005mf-MG@shell.xmission.com> Message-ID: <BLU139-W25029DA6E84E88C266FB0AC99C0@phx.gbl> I have one sitting here for $75 plus shipping if anyone wants it. or pickup if you liike in toronto > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > From: legalize at xmission.com > Subject: Onyx2 cube > Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 10:39:03 -0600 > > Picked up an Onyx 2 cube from university surplus today for a lowball > bid of $50. > > Yay! > -- > "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download > <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com/the-direct3d-graphics-pipeline/> > > Legalize Adulthood! <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com> From cclist at sydex.com Tue Aug 17 11:52:48 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 09:52:48 -0700 Subject: EPROM programming (27c160's) In-Reply-To: <10c201cb3df7$9c528020$0600000a@portajara> References: <p06240806c88e2859ae7d@[192.168.1.116]>, <10c201cb3df7$9c528020$0600000a@portajara> Message-ID: <4C6A5BF0.11077.67291E@cclist.sydex.com> On 17 Aug 2010 at 7:18, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > > > A word of warning about the sivava programmer: It's a modified > > Willem unit with its own special software. The developer forked the > > Willem project and never released his changes. Caused a lot of > > rancor. > > http://www.py2bbs.qsl.br/willem_pcb45.php > > Modifying a regular willem for 4.5 software On the subject, does anyone have any experience with the Genius G540? It claims to be able to program GALs as well as (E)EPROMs and there's a 16-bit adapter for it. The price is very attractive. --Chuck From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Aug 17 12:37:04 2010 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 12:37:04 -0500 Subject: Some DG 1200 progress References: <8533152230C141848C9A40294BE7C232@osa.local> Message-ID: <F18A821F4C874AB6AA039168F6EF9575@osa.local> Christian wrote.... >Yep. Each lamp draws about 10ma in order to keep them warm and to avoid >large surge currents when they're driven on. The supply should actually be >15V unfiltered and unregulated coming directly off a bridge, not 11V. Ok, I'm confused then. The schematics (and the theory of operation verbiage {long}) all clearly state 11v for the lamps. Is it possible you're thinking nova 2 or 3 or some other model? The schematics and technical manual I have specifically state nova 800/1200. This system in particular is a 1230. And I had written.... > I can deposit and examine correctly to all 4 cpu registers, but memory is > a different story. There are a few spots in memory that I tested (at 100o > for the one 8K stack and at 20000o for the other 8K stack) where I can > deposit and read back as expected. However, there are a fair number of > spots where if I deposit a value, the machine goes into run mode when I > hit the deposit switch. Doesn't that sound more like a cpu card issue than > memory or front panel? To which Christian replied.... >It's decidedly not memory. It *may* be a CPU issue but it actually sounds >more like a noisy bus (i.e., no terminator) or a wonky front panel. .......... >Do you have anything in the topmost slot of the chassis? If not, do you >have a bus terminator installed on the big-ass connector on the back of the >machine? This is less of an issue for a short chassis, but a jumbo will >pretty much do entirely random things without the bus having some sort of >termination on it, particularly with respect to the front panel. Well, funny you should mention that. I definitely plowed into this machine before really digesting all the docs in detail, and am not familiar with the termination setup. This machine had cpu in slot 1, dg 8K in slot 2, cassette I/O in slot 3, a plessy 8K board in slot 4, and then at the very top (slot 17) had a home brew interface (using one of the DG prototyping boards). I left that board out, was trying to start with as small of a setup as possible. From the sounds of it, I really need to look up the termination requirements/methods :) J From legalize at xmission.com Tue Aug 17 12:52:47 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 11:52:47 -0600 Subject: Onyx2 cube In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 17 Aug 2010 12:42:32 -0400. <BLU139-W25029DA6E84E88C266FB0AC99C0@phx.gbl> Message-ID: <E1OlQL9-0002ZZ-3x@shell.xmission.com> In article <BLU139-W25029DA6E84E88C266FB0AC99C0 at phx.gbl>, Dan Gahlinger <dgahling at hotmail.com> writes: > I have one sitting here for $75 plus shipping if anyone wants it. > or pickup if you liike > > in toronto Yeah. Shipping from Toronto is a lot more expensive than driving up to the University and loading it in the back of my car :-). BTW, what graphics does yours have? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com/the-direct3d-graphics-pipeline/> Legalize Adulthood! <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com> From RichA at vulcan.com Tue Aug 17 13:24:50 2010 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 11:24:50 -0700 Subject: PDP-1 as minicomputer [was RE: OT - sort of] In-Reply-To: <m1OjyqF-000J4CC@p850ug1> References: <4C64B16E.4030905@tx.rr.com> from "Charlie Carothers" at Aug 12, 10 09:43:58 pm <m1OjyqF-000J4CC@p850ug1> Message-ID: <CC28F43ED4708D489ABCF68D06D7F556040A5CC9EA@505DENALI.corp.vnw.com> From: Tony Duell Sent: Friday, August 13, 2010 11:19 AM >> Yep, that makes a lot more sense. In 1960 I suppose about the only >> thing to play a computer game on would have been either a mini or a >> mainframe - actually I think it would have had to be a mainframe. Based >> on a *very* quick web search, the first PDP-8 shipped in 1964, so if >> that was the first mini... Some might say the IBM 1620, introduced in >> 1959, was a mini but I think that is a stretch. > THe PDP1 was around in the very early 1960s IIRC. And Spacewar, of > course, ran on it. I would class that machine as a mini, but others may not. AFAICT, the first customer delivery was in 1960. Spacewar! (the exclamation point is part of the name) was of course *written* for the PDP-1 at the MIT AI Lab. At the time of its introduction, the PDP-1 was not a minicomputer. It was capable of addressing up to 64K of 18-bit words; even the base configuration with 4K is the equivalent of a 12K IBM 1401 in memory capacity, and the full 64K is the equivalent of the 32K of 36-bit words available in an IBM 704x or 709x system. What set the PDP-1 apart was that it was intended as an interactive system, with the user seated at the console. (DEC continued this focus in the 18-bit product line until the introduction of RSX on the PDP-15/76 (prior to the port to the PDP-11 family).) In this regard, it is more similar to the IBM 1130 (introduced in 1965, as the PDP-7 was sweeping into labs everywhere) than to the contemporary batch-oriented computers. Arguing that anything before the PDP-8 was a "minicomputer" is revisionism. IMAO. Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.PDPplanet.org/ http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Aug 17 13:35:18 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 14:35:18 -0400 Subject: PDP-1 as minicomputer [was RE: OT - sort of] In-Reply-To: <CC28F43ED4708D489ABCF68D06D7F556040A5CC9EA@505DENALI.corp.vnw.com> References: <4C64B16E.4030905@tx.rr.com> <m1OjyqF-000J4CC@p850ug1> <CC28F43ED4708D489ABCF68D06D7F556040A5CC9EA@505DENALI.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <AANLkTiktTn8Jc9xtPLjoFGCAh1bYKQKGK+7Dsy8=3SJF@mail.gmail.com> Remember the forbidden words when dealing with the history of invention and technology: "first" "last" "only" "always" "never" -- Will From legalize at xmission.com Tue Aug 17 15:25:47 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 14:25:47 -0600 Subject: PDP-1 as minicomputer [was RE: OT - sort of] In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 17 Aug 2010 11:24:50 -0700. <CC28F43ED4708D489ABCF68D06D7F556040A5CC9EA@505DENALI.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <E1OlSjD-0001Qr-QC@shell.xmission.com> In article <CC28F43ED4708D489ABCF68D06D7F556040A5CC9EA at 505DENALI.corp.vnw.com>, Rich Alderson <RichA at vulcan.com> writes: > Arguing that anything before the PDP-8 was a "minicomputer" is revisionism. > IMAO. I haven't been following this thread. What distinguishes a minicomputer from the PDP-1? Is it the multiuser capability? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com/the-direct3d-graphics-pipeline/> Legalize Adulthood! <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com> From wmaddox at pacbell.net Tue Aug 17 15:37:39 2010 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 13:37:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: PDP-1 as minicomputer [was RE: OT - sort of] In-Reply-To: <CC28F43ED4708D489ABCF68D06D7F556040A5CC9EA@505DENALI.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <123677.70374.qm@web82606.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- On Tue, 8/17/10, Rich Alderson <RichA at vulcan.com> wrote: > Arguing that anything before the PDP-8 was a "minicomputer" > is revisionism. > IMAO. The PDP-8 is probably as good a place as any to demarcate the beginnings of the minicomputer. It was apparently the machine for which the term "minicomputer" was coined. Prior to the PDP-8, however, there was a recognizable class of "small" scientifically-oriented computers with shorter word lengths than their mainframe-class brethren, lower cost, and typically used in small configurations, e.g., SDS 910/920, 3C DDP-24, DEC-PDP1/PDP4, and even smaller serial-memory machines like the Recomp II, Packard-Bell 250, Bendix G-15, and the LGP-30. --Bill From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Aug 17 15:50:52 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 16:50:52 -0400 Subject: PDP-1 as minicomputer [was RE: OT - sort of] In-Reply-To: <E1OlSjD-0001Qr-QC@shell.xmission.com> References: <CC28F43ED4708D489ABCF68D06D7F556040A5CC9EA@505DENALI.corp.vnw.com> <E1OlSjD-0001Qr-QC@shell.xmission.com> Message-ID: <AANLkTi=RENp1PERbsgCgZg4nkHWqPOVKpaqmROydrTqR@mail.gmail.com> On 8/17/10, Richard <legalize at xmission.com> wrote: > > In article > <CC28F43ED4708D489ABCF68D06D7F556040A5CC9EA at 505DENALI.corp.vnw.com>, > Rich Alderson <RichA at vulcan.com> writes: > >> Arguing that anything before the PDP-8 was a "minicomputer" is >> revisionism. >> IMAO. > > I haven't been following this thread. What distinguishes a > minicomputer from the PDP-1? Is it the multiuser capability? I'm a bit curious about the working definition, too. I'm by no means an expert, but I would have thought that a machine that fell into the "minicomputer" category would be based on its size and cost substantially below (like 80-90% below) a mainframe, and interactive vs batch as the primary method of use. Single-user vs multi-user is not a defining element IMO. PDP-8s and PDP-11s were both available in single-user and multi-user configurations (though multi-user PDP-11s were more ordinary). Leaving out VLSI machines of the 1970s ("micros") and focusing on the 1960s, I'd say that definition easily includes the PDP-8, about which I think there is little dissent. I personally would have included the PDP-1 as well - to me, it's "small" (4 cabinets plus peripherals?), meant to be used interactively, and (relatively) cheap - $120K in 1960 dollars. But it all depends on how you define "minicomputer" as to what specifically falls in the category. -ethan From legalize at xmission.com Tue Aug 17 16:00:20 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 15:00:20 -0600 Subject: PDP-1 as minicomputer [was RE: OT - sort of] In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 17 Aug 2010 16:50:52 -0400. <AANLkTi=RENp1PERbsgCgZg4nkHWqPOVKpaqmROydrTqR@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <E1OlTGe-0002jf-T5@shell.xmission.com> In article <AANLkTi=RENp1PERbsgCgZg4nkHWqPOVKpaqmROydrTqR at mail.gmail.com>, Ethan Dicks <ethan.dicks at gmail.com> writes: > I'm a bit curious about the working definition, too. I'm by no means > an expert, but I would have thought that a machine that fell into the > "minicomputer" category would be based on its size and cost > substantially below (like 80-90% below) a mainframe, and interactive > vs batch as the primary method of use. Single-user vs multi-user is > not a defining element IMO. OK, I'll go along with your definition; it seems more thought out than my stab in the dark. I'd like to hear Rich Alderson's definition though and why he doesn't include the PDP-1. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com/the-direct3d-graphics-pipeline/> Legalize Adulthood! <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com> From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Aug 17 16:21:02 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 17:21:02 -0400 Subject: PDP-1 as minicomputer [was RE: OT - sort of] In-Reply-To: <E1OlTGe-0002jf-T5@shell.xmission.com> References: <AANLkTi=RENp1PERbsgCgZg4nkHWqPOVKpaqmROydrTqR@mail.gmail.com> <E1OlTGe-0002jf-T5@shell.xmission.com> Message-ID: <AANLkTimALAWzmEw2FMkBinMbQPFcsif35EKX0+AcPO08@mail.gmail.com> On 8/17/10, Richard <legalize at xmission.com> wrote: > > In article <AANLkTi=RENp1PERbsgCgZg4nkHWqPOVKpaqmROydrTqR at mail.gmail.com>, > Ethan Dicks <ethan.dicks at gmail.com> writes: > >> ... I'm by no means >> an expert, but I would have thought that a machine that fell into the >> "minicomputer" category would be based on its size and cost... > > OK, I'll go along with your definition; it seems more thought out than > my stab in the dark. My definition is most likely an amalgam of what I was exposed to vis-a-vis minis vs mainframes c. 1980, more than anything else. It's certainly not meant to be the absolute yardstick of what is or is not a mini, but I think it works for all but the edge cases (which is where debate creeps in anyway). > I'd like to hear Rich Alderson's definition though and why he doesn't > include the PDP-1. After reading other reponses in this thread, something I had not considered is what year the term was first applied - that seems to be 1964, give or take, and applied to the PDP-8. So perhaps the PDP-1 was a minicomputer before they had the word for it, but I am far too young to comment if it was then _called_ a minicomputer, after the word was coined. -ethan From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 17 15:34:50 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 21:34:50 +0100 (BST) Subject: OT - sort of In-Reply-To: <4C6973C3.30102@tx.rr.com> from "Charlie Carothers" at Aug 16, 10 12:22:11 pm Message-ID: <m1OlSs6-000J3uC@p850ug1> > I did not even know there *was* a PDP-1, which is not surprising I guess I can't remember just which of the PDP-n series were actually produced, but it's more than the PDP-8 and PDP-11 that most people remember these days. PDP stood for 'Programmed Data Processor'. The machines were not actually claled 'computers' in the early days (for they most certainly were computers), there have been several expllanations as to why.. > far of the PDP-1, it does appear to be rather large to fit my mental > image of a mini, FWIW (not much). In some ways I'm reminded of the It was nto a small machine, that's certan. But it's unclear just what a 'minicomputer' is :-). I believe the PDP1 did not need an air-conditioned room, and that is one criterion for distinguishing a mini from a mainframe. As an aside, the only machines I _know_ to be minicomputers are the Philips P800 series. They say 'Minicomputer' on the front panel :-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 17 15:40:01 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 21:40:01 +0100 (BST) Subject: Biomation K100D Logic Analyzers (Was: Logic analyzer pods) In-Reply-To: <A637A09B-1C05-4BB8-A76F-B5AFC3A42DCF@comcast.net> from "CRC" at Aug 16, 10 12:20:17 pm Message-ID: <m1OlSx8-000J3xC@p850ug1> [K100D pods] > > The probe sets for this model are easy to build. I put together a set = > when I picked up my first box and used it with PICK micros when I was = > inflicted with that madness. Subsequently I was given the set that = > accompanies the above unit(s). The interface to the K100D is simple, and docuemtned. Physically there's a 50 pin microribbon connector (unconventionally the plug is on the instrument and the socket on the cable), for each set of 10 inputs (one carreis 8 data channels, clock and clock qualifier, the other 8 data channels and 2 trigger qualifiers). Each channel takes up 5 pins of the connecotr -- groud, -5.2V, an analogue threshold control signal and a differential ECL signal pair, the singal for that chaneel. Note there is no +5V on this connector, but there's a 3 pin Lemo socket on the back of the instrument (maybe a pair of them) which carries +5V, ground, -5.2V. Making the original pods, with variable thresholds is not trivial (although there is a schematic in some versiosn fo the manual). But making a TTL-only unit is a lot easier, and that's all you need for a lot of applications. I did that to mine. Used 74F244 buffers and 10124 TTL-ECL translators IIRC. I had to take power from that Lemo socket, of course. It's not totally trivial to build, since you need to make sure that the pod doesn't introduce glitches that the analyser will detect (even if you only intend to use it on slow signals). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 17 15:45:02 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 21:45:02 +0100 (BST) Subject: EPROM programming (27c160's) In-Reply-To: <0dc901cb3d7e$579d95b0$0600000a@portajara> from "Alexandre Souza - Listas" at Aug 16, 10 05:04:16 pm Message-ID: <m1OlT20-000J43C@p850ug1> > > > I am puzzled... This was sent personally to me, but I don;t see how I > > could make use of the product described. I don't have a Windows machine > > Maybe not the product, but surely the information Possibly, although EPROM programming is not normally that difficult... I built my first EPROM programmer many years ago. It did 2716-27128 chips, it emulated as well. And it had a serial interface. All done in TTL and a dumb UART -- I couldn't use any programmed devices or even a microprocesosr (it would need some kind of firmware device) as I had nothing to program them on. The problem, as I have said before, is all the other programmable devices... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 17 16:32:53 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 22:32:53 +0100 (BST) Subject: Some DG 1200 progress In-Reply-To: <8533152230C141848C9A40294BE7C232@osa.local> from "Jay West" at Aug 17, 10 09:39:35 am Message-ID: <m1OlTmD-000J4HC@p850ug1> > I cleaned up the backplane and all edge connectors with progold, tested = > out the power supplies, and the machine sprang to life. It would appear = > that all the bulbs except the LSbit in the address row work, which is = > good as the bulbs seem pretty unobtanium. I'll keep digging to find a = > source of spares for the 2176D. The bulbs have no markings on them, but = > they are fed via an 11v supply. It looks like they are tied to ground = > via a 1K resistor which I'm guessing is a warming circuit. I do find it = > rather odd that they are soldered in place instead of socketed, and = > since the bulbs have no metal at all - just two very thin leads coming = > right out of the glass - they seem pretty fragile. Wire-ended bulbs are not uncommon, and are still available new. My guess is that if this is an 11V supply then the bulbs are at least 12V, and posisbly 14V. You would want to underrun them to get a long life, and they will be plenty bright enough. Now for the first trick that I would use. Connect a milliammeter across the 1k resistor for a working bulb (machine on, of course, but with that bulb turnd off my the machine, so if it's an address indicator, have a 0 in that bit of the address register). The bulb should like to the normal brightness, powered via the milliammeter. Note the current reading. This will give a good idea of the sort of rated bulb current you are looking for (filamament lamps aporoximate a constant current load fairly well). So if you find it's, say, 50mA, you would look down the lists for 12V 50mA nr 14V 50mA bulbs. Get a few and try them... I can't, alas, help further, I have a Nova 1210, but alas it's mising the front panel PCB. I found it in bits in a skip (dumpster) and rescued all I could find (chassis, front panel bezel, CPU, core memeory and a couple of non-DG itnerface cards). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 17 16:06:36 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 22:06:36 +0100 (BST) Subject: Mostly OT: Looking for Manual/Schematic for Wavetek 1901C In-Reply-To: <4C69FCA6.9070506@mail.msu.edu> from "Josh Dersch" at Aug 16, 10 08:06:14 pm Message-ID: <m1OlTMp-000J4CC@p850ug1> > > Snagged a Wavetek 1901C last week. This is a 12" oscilloscope display > (X/Y+intensity input), I was hoping to use it as a point-plotting/vector > display for a couple of little computer projects of mine. (Or maybe > just hooking an Asteroids board up to it... :). It's in pretty good > shape (has more screen burn than I think I've ever seen in a few spots, > though.) I fixed a couple of cold solder joints and it's now mostly > working, except something appears to be going slightly wrong in the Y > deflection or amplification (it's getting clipped/distorted depending on > the gain and input intensity). > > Anyone have a service manual or schematic for this thing or know good > sources for such things? Often the X and Y channels are very similar, if not identical, for obvious reasons. I don;t know how it's constructed, but if you can identify corresponding parts of the X and Y channels, then you might be able to compare signals between them to track down the faulty part. Does this unit use electrostatic or electromagnetic deflection? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 17 16:38:23 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 22:38:23 +0100 (BST) Subject: Some DG 1200 progress In-Reply-To: <F18A821F4C874AB6AA039168F6EF9575@osa.local> from "Jay West" at Aug 17, 10 12:37:04 pm Message-ID: <m1OlTrW-000J4IC@p850ug1> > > Christian wrote.... > >Yep. Each lamp draws about 10ma in order to keep them warm and to avoid > >large surge currents when they're driven on. The supply should actually be > >15V unfiltered and unregulated coming directly off a bridge, not 11V. > Ok, I'm confused then. The schematics (and the theory of operation verbiage > {long}) all clearly state 11v for the lamps. Is it possible you're thinking I wonder... If it's unfiltered (no smoothing cap) from a bridge rectifier, then the ratio of RMS (which is what lamps care about) to peak is sqrt(2). Which means an 11V rms supply is about 15V peak. I would be inclined to put a voltmeter on that supply and see what it reads. I would also stick a 'scope on it, to see if it really is an unfiltered supply. -tony From cclist at sydex.com Tue Aug 17 16:51:25 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 14:51:25 -0700 Subject: PDP-1 as minicomputer [was RE: OT - sort of] In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimALAWzmEw2FMkBinMbQPFcsif35EKX0+AcPO08@mail.gmail.com> References: <AANLkTi=RENp1PERbsgCgZg4nkHWqPOVKpaqmROydrTqR@mail.gmail.com>, <E1OlTGe-0002jf-T5@shell.xmission.com>, <AANLkTimALAWzmEw2FMkBinMbQPFcsif35EKX0+AcPO08@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4C6AA1ED.23394.1788E21@cclist.sydex.com> On 17 Aug 2010 at 17:21, Ethan Dicks wrote: > So perhaps the PDP-1 was a minicomputer before they had the word for > it, but I am far too young to comment if it was then _called_ a > minicomputer, after the word was coined. I've heard the PB250 and the CDC 160A both called "minicomputers"-- both are substantially smaller in size than the PDP-1. So it's a judgement call. My own personal yardstick is that a "minicomputer" is something that can be run from a single 120V 20A lighting circuit. The PB250 qualifies; the 160A does not--and neither does the PDP-1. Others may use their own yardsticks. --Chuck From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Aug 17 16:54:53 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 17:54:53 -0400 Subject: PDP-1 as minicomputer [was RE: OT - sort of] In-Reply-To: <4C6AA1ED.23394.1788E21@cclist.sydex.com> References: <AANLkTi=RENp1PERbsgCgZg4nkHWqPOVKpaqmROydrTqR@mail.gmail.com> <E1OlTGe-0002jf-T5@shell.xmission.com> <AANLkTimALAWzmEw2FMkBinMbQPFcsif35EKX0+AcPO08@mail.gmail.com> <4C6AA1ED.23394.1788E21@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <AANLkTi=L4hDaWSFPyO6k4RKjogB23j153gaDOSGyJyk1@mail.gmail.com> On 8/17/10, Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> wrote: > My own personal yardstick is that a "minicomputer" is something that > can be run from a single 120V 20A lighting circuit. The PB250 > qualifies; the 160A does not--and neither does the PDP-1. Hmm... I'm not sure the Straight-8 qualifies by that yardstick. 30A 120V circuit, no problem. 20A, I'm not as confident. > Others may use their own yardsticks. Indeed. -ethan From dkelvey at hotmail.com Tue Aug 17 17:14:14 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 15:14:14 -0700 Subject: PDP-1 as minicomputer [was RE: OT - sort of] In-Reply-To: <AANLkTi=L4hDaWSFPyO6k4RKjogB23j153gaDOSGyJyk1@mail.gmail.com> References: <AANLkTi=RENp1PERbsgCgZg4nkHWqPOVKpaqmROydrTqR@mail.gmail.com>, <E1OlTGe-0002jf-T5@shell.xmission.com>, <AANLkTimALAWzmEw2FMkBinMbQPFcsif35EKX0+AcPO08@mail.gmail.com>, <4C6AA1ED.23394.1788E21@cclist.sydex.com>, <AANLkTi=L4hDaWSFPyO6k4RKjogB23j153gaDOSGyJyk1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <SNT129-W46023395357A7CC046E8AA39C0@phx.gbl> > Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 17:54:53 -0400 > Subject: Re: PDP-1 as minicomputer [was RE: OT - sort of] > From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > On 8/17/10, Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> wrote: > > My own personal yardstick is that a "minicomputer" is something that > > can be run from a single 120V 20A lighting circuit. The PB250 > > qualifies; the 160A does not--and neither does the PDP-1. > > Hmm... I'm not sure the Straight-8 qualifies by that yardstick. 30A > 120V circuit, no problem. 20A, I'm not as confident. > > > Others may use their own yardsticks. > > Indeed. > > -ethan Hi IBM had a series of small computers they called minis that used water cooling. These where about the size of three standard desk, end-to-end. Dwight From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Aug 17 17:22:06 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 18:22:06 -0400 Subject: PDP-1 as minicomputer [was RE: OT - sort of] In-Reply-To: <SNT129-W46023395357A7CC046E8AA39C0@phx.gbl> References: <AANLkTi=RENp1PERbsgCgZg4nkHWqPOVKpaqmROydrTqR@mail.gmail.com> <E1OlTGe-0002jf-T5@shell.xmission.com> <AANLkTimALAWzmEw2FMkBinMbQPFcsif35EKX0+AcPO08@mail.gmail.com> <4C6AA1ED.23394.1788E21@cclist.sydex.com> <AANLkTi=L4hDaWSFPyO6k4RKjogB23j153gaDOSGyJyk1@mail.gmail.com> <SNT129-W46023395357A7CC046E8AA39C0@phx.gbl> Message-ID: <AANLkTi=7e7EsiL=31Hcgdv3i40voPnsnpomg35oZbL6w@mail.gmail.com> On 8/17/10, dwight elvey <dkelvey at hotmail.com> wrote: > Hi > IBM had a series of small computers they called minis that used > water cooling. These where about the size of three standard desk, > end-to-end. Hmm... of all the judges of "what is a minicomputer", IBM does not rise to the top of my list. My first impulse is to think that someone in marketing decided to go after lost sales by saying "see... we have minicomputers, too". OTOH, I have no knowledge of the machines you are describing, so perhaps, cooling systems aside, by other criteria, they _might_ have passed as minicomputers. While liquid cooling was characteristic of some flavors of mainframes, there were still plenty of air-cooled mainframes, so I wouldn't make that on its own a dividing line. -ethan From legalize at xmission.com Tue Aug 17 17:29:02 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 16:29:02 -0600 Subject: PDP-1 as minicomputer [was RE: OT - sort of] In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 17 Aug 2010 18:22:06 -0400. <AANLkTi=7e7EsiL=31Hcgdv3i40voPnsnpomg35oZbL6w@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <E1OlUeU-0002Bi-HQ@shell.xmission.com> In article <AANLkTi=7e7EsiL=31Hcgdv3i40voPnsnpomg35oZbL6w at mail.gmail.com>, Ethan Dicks <ethan.dicks at gmail.com> writes: > On 8/17/10, dwight elvey <dkelvey at hotmail.com> wrote: > > Hi > > IBM had a series of small computers they called minis that used > > water cooling. These where about the size of three standard desk, > > end-to-end. > > Hmm... of all the judges of "what is a minicomputer", IBM does not > rise to the top of my list. How about Series/1? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com/the-direct3d-graphics-pipeline/> Legalize Adulthood! <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com> From cclist at sydex.com Tue Aug 17 17:39:12 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 15:39:12 -0700 Subject: PDP-1 as minicomputer [was RE: OT - sort of] In-Reply-To: <SNT129-W46023395357A7CC046E8AA39C0@phx.gbl> References: <AANLkTi=RENp1PERbsgCgZg4nkHWqPOVKpaqmROydrTqR@mail.gmail.com>, <AANLkTi=L4hDaWSFPyO6k4RKjogB23j153gaDOSGyJyk1@mail.gmail.com>, <SNT129-W46023395357A7CC046E8AA39C0@phx.gbl> Message-ID: <4C6AAD20.2112.1A44E15@cclist.sydex.com> On 17 Aug 2010 at 15:14, dwight elvey wrote: > IBM had a series of small computers they called minis that used > water cooling. These where about the size of three standard desk, > end-to-end. Is it safe to say that there were no minicomputers called as such before 1960, simply owing the etymology? The BMC Mini auto dates from 1960 or so and the miniskirt, from 1966. With the PDP-1, I wonder if the the "mini" applied more to cost than physical size. --Chuck From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Aug 17 17:42:50 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 18:42:50 -0400 Subject: PDP-1 as minicomputer [was RE: OT - sort of] In-Reply-To: <SNT129-W46023395357A7CC046E8AA39C0@phx.gbl> References: <AANLkTi=RENp1PERbsgCgZg4nkHWqPOVKpaqmROydrTqR@mail.gmail.com> <E1OlTGe-0002jf-T5@shell.xmission.com> <AANLkTimALAWzmEw2FMkBinMbQPFcsif35EKX0+AcPO08@mail.gmail.com> <4C6AA1ED.23394.1788E21@cclist.sydex.com> <AANLkTi=L4hDaWSFPyO6k4RKjogB23j153gaDOSGyJyk1@mail.gmail.com> <SNT129-W46023395357A7CC046E8AA39C0@phx.gbl> Message-ID: <AANLkTim89Zubr0o3M_xpbk01fxpZCG1BRfmn9Tv7RbNA@mail.gmail.com> > ?IBM had a series of small computers they called minis that used > water cooling. These where about the size of three standard desk, > end-to-end. What machines were these? -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Aug 17 17:47:33 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 18:47:33 -0400 Subject: PDP-1 as minicomputer [was RE: OT - sort of] In-Reply-To: <AANLkTi=7e7EsiL=31Hcgdv3i40voPnsnpomg35oZbL6w@mail.gmail.com> References: <AANLkTi=RENp1PERbsgCgZg4nkHWqPOVKpaqmROydrTqR@mail.gmail.com> <E1OlTGe-0002jf-T5@shell.xmission.com> <AANLkTimALAWzmEw2FMkBinMbQPFcsif35EKX0+AcPO08@mail.gmail.com> <4C6AA1ED.23394.1788E21@cclist.sydex.com> <AANLkTi=L4hDaWSFPyO6k4RKjogB23j153gaDOSGyJyk1@mail.gmail.com> <SNT129-W46023395357A7CC046E8AA39C0@phx.gbl> <AANLkTi=7e7EsiL=31Hcgdv3i40voPnsnpomg35oZbL6w@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <AANLkTinHeFcO5yLnZCXRLBPaBic9AfFKfOY_qyxZZMo9@mail.gmail.com> > Hmm... of all the judges of "what is a minicomputer", IBM does not > rise to the top of my list. The funny thing is that IBM probably made more minicomputers that anyone else. They made a *lot* of S/36s and early AS/400s. Even if you look at the 1400 line - a grey area machine, certainly - IBM knew how to do volume. Except IBM marketing called them midrange, not minicomputer. -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Aug 17 17:50:55 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 18:50:55 -0400 Subject: PDP-1 as minicomputer [was RE: OT - sort of] In-Reply-To: <E1OlUeU-0002Bi-HQ@shell.xmission.com> References: <AANLkTi=7e7EsiL=31Hcgdv3i40voPnsnpomg35oZbL6w@mail.gmail.com> <E1OlUeU-0002Bi-HQ@shell.xmission.com> Message-ID: <AANLkTi=5hwDMPFjqhobXzRtLja_Q_jDHvC0Fu_+eV-hM@mail.gmail.com> > How about Series/1? There is a classic Data General ad that ran when IBM was introducing the S/1 to "legitimize the minicomputer market". The Data General ad said "The bastards say, welcome". Bruce Ray may be looking for this ad for a scan. -- Will From legalize at xmission.com Tue Aug 17 17:57:38 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 16:57:38 -0600 Subject: PDP-1 as minicomputer [was RE: OT - sort of] In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 17 Aug 2010 18:50:55 -0400. <AANLkTi=5hwDMPFjqhobXzRtLja_Q_jDHvC0Fu_+eV-hM@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <E1OlV6A-0001So-AT@shell.xmission.com> In article <AANLkTi=5hwDMPFjqhobXzRtLja_Q_jDHvC0Fu_+eV-hM at mail.gmail.com>, William Donzelli <wdonzelli at gmail.com> writes: > > How about Series/1? > > There is a classic Data General ad that ran when IBM was introducing > the S/1 to "legitimize the minicomputer market". The Data General ad > said "The bastards say, welcome". > > Bruce Ray may be looking for this ad for a scan. I'd like to see that! :-) -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com/the-direct3d-graphics-pipeline/> Legalize Adulthood! <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com> From dgahling at hotmail.com Tue Aug 17 18:03:22 2010 From: dgahling at hotmail.com (Dan Gahlinger) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 19:03:22 -0400 Subject: Onyx2 cube In-Reply-To: <E1OlQL9-0002ZZ-3x@shell.xmission.com> References: Your message of Tue, 17 Aug 2010 12:42:32 -0400. Message-ID: <BLU139-W34168ED690125866233B11C99C0@phx.gbl> well... It was being used for doppler radar weather forecasting in the US before I picked it up. so I suppose the graphics must be quite good, as to what graphics specifically, I have no idea Dan. > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Onyx2 cube > From: legalize at xmission.com > Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 11:52:47 -0600 > > > In article <BLU139-W25029DA6E84E88C266FB0AC99C0 at phx.gbl>, > Dan Gahlinger <dgahling at hotmail.com> writes: > > > I have one sitting here for $75 plus shipping if anyone wants it. > > or pickup if you liike > > > > in toronto > > Yeah. Shipping from Toronto is a lot more expensive than driving up > to the University and loading it in the back of my car :-). > > BTW, what graphics does yours have? > -- > "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download > <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com/the-direct3d-graphics-pipeline/> > > Legalize Adulthood! <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com> From IanK at vulcan.com Tue Aug 17 18:03:44 2010 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 16:03:44 -0700 Subject: PDP-1 as minicomputer [was RE: OT - sort of] In-Reply-To: <4C6AAD20.2112.1A44E15@cclist.sydex.com> References: <AANLkTi=RENp1PERbsgCgZg4nkHWqPOVKpaqmROydrTqR@mail.gmail.com>, <AANLkTi=L4hDaWSFPyO6k4RKjogB23j153gaDOSGyJyk1@mail.gmail.com>, <SNT129-W46023395357A7CC046E8AA39C0@phx.gbl> <4C6AAD20.2112.1A44E15@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <FF6AB92D97A23A409701CDBF66F03FCD03DC3E6ECD@505fuji> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chuck Guzis > Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2010 3:39 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: RE: PDP-1 as minicomputer [was RE: OT - sort of] > > On 17 Aug 2010 at 15:14, dwight elvey wrote: > > > IBM had a series of small computers they called minis that used > > water cooling. These where about the size of three standard desk, > > end-to-end. > > Is it safe to say that there were no minicomputers called as such > before 1960, simply owing the etymology? The BMC Mini auto dates > from 1960 or so and the miniskirt, from 1966. > > With the PDP-1, I wonder if the the "mini" applied more to cost than > physical size. > This is probably one of the most problematic questions I try to answer, far too often: why is X a minicomputer and not something else? I think of a minicomputer as a machine designed to not require an operator staff, designed for direct interaction between the user and the computer (rather than batch operation), and designed for a *relatively* small resource footprint (the PDP-1 required a LOT less resources than a 7090). There is a lot of fuzz around all of these factors. Is a VAX-11 a minicomputer? It takes three-phase power and was intended to serve as a large timeshared system. There is a mechanism to run batch jobs. There was a role defined for the "system manager" who maintained various aspects of the OS environment. However, at the same time IBM's product line consisted of machines that still cost ten times as much, could NOT be meaningfully maintained without an operations staff and were fundamentally designed for batch processing. The VAX-11 was "mini" by comparison. It is feasible for one person to operate and use a VAX; the question in the context of a VAX-11 is an economic one, not a question of operational overhead. Consider that when IBM transistorized the 709, they did NOT build a smaller computer based on the increased functional density of the transistor. They built a large computer with more capability. In contrast, the PDP-1 was intended to be small enough that it wasn't a perceived economic absurdity for it to be used single-user. For counterpoint, the PDP-10 was never intended to be anything other than a mainframe-class machine. Its capabilities, capacity and footprint all served as direct competition to System/360. So DEC != minicomputer, although they were the leading manufacturer of that class of machine for many years - indeed, until the microcomputer began overshadowing the mini. This is an interesting question, and I hope we can have some meaningful dialogue about it - and maybe even stay on topic. :-) -- Ian From IanK at vulcan.com Tue Aug 17 18:04:55 2010 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 16:04:55 -0700 Subject: PDP-1 as minicomputer [was RE: OT - sort of] In-Reply-To: <AANLkTi=5hwDMPFjqhobXzRtLja_Q_jDHvC0Fu_+eV-hM@mail.gmail.com> References: <AANLkTi=7e7EsiL=31Hcgdv3i40voPnsnpomg35oZbL6w@mail.gmail.com> <E1OlUeU-0002Bi-HQ@shell.xmission.com> <AANLkTi=5hwDMPFjqhobXzRtLja_Q_jDHvC0Fu_+eV-hM@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <FF6AB92D97A23A409701CDBF66F03FCD03DC3E6ECE@505fuji> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of William Donzelli > Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2010 3:51 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: PDP-1 as minicomputer [was RE: OT - sort of] > > > How about Series/1? > > There is a classic Data General ad that ran when IBM was introducing > the S/1 to "legitimize the minicomputer market". The Data General ad > said "The bastards say, welcome". > > Bruce Ray may be looking for this ad for a scan. > > -- > Will I'm almost certain I've seen that ad, which either means (a) Bruce already has it or (b) I'm older than I realize. -- Ian From dm561 at torfree.net Tue Aug 17 18:13:45 2010 From: dm561 at torfree.net (MikeS) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 19:13:45 -0400 Subject: Onyx2 cube References: <mailman.43.1282086233.1006.cctalk@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <B48FD3B73EAD4FD592DFDAA631AC7CF3@vl420mt> Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 11:52:47 -0600 From: Richard <legalize at xmission.com> Subject: Re: Onyx2 cube In article <BLU139-W25029DA6E84E88C266FB0AC99C0 at phx.gbl>, Dan Gahlinger <dgahling at hotmail.com> writes: > I have one sitting here for $75 plus shipping if anyone wants it. > or pickup if you liike > > in toronto Yeah. Shipping from Toronto is a lot more expensive than driving up to the University and loading it in the back of my car :-). ---------------- Well, for you maybe; unfortunately I'm not interested ;-) mike (in Toronto) From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Aug 17 18:59:26 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 19:59:26 -0400 Subject: PDP-1 as minicomputer [was RE: OT - sort of] In-Reply-To: <FF6AB92D97A23A409701CDBF66F03FCD03DC3E6ECD@505fuji> References: <AANLkTi=RENp1PERbsgCgZg4nkHWqPOVKpaqmROydrTqR@mail.gmail.com> <AANLkTi=L4hDaWSFPyO6k4RKjogB23j153gaDOSGyJyk1@mail.gmail.com> <SNT129-W46023395357A7CC046E8AA39C0@phx.gbl> <4C6AAD20.2112.1A44E15@cclist.sydex.com> <FF6AB92D97A23A409701CDBF66F03FCD03DC3E6ECD@505fuji> Message-ID: <AANLkTikjcLsf7rpKztkbDBY7JsCvacszN9XCVS0bb8Tq@mail.gmail.com> > However, at the same time IBM's product line consisted of machines that still cost ten times as much, could NOT be meaningfully maintained without an operations staff and were fundamentally designed for batch processing. Compare apples to oranges - when the VAX-11 line was out, IBM had the 4300 line. These machines were specifically designed not to require operations staff, a big infrastructure, pure batch operation, and so forth. Burroughs had the 1900 line with pretty much the same low maintenance ideas going on. The 4300 line was a huge hit for IBM (the 1900 line was so-so for Burroughs). > For counterpoint, the PDP-10 was never intended to be anything other than a mainframe-class machine. ?Its capabilities, capacity and footprint all served as direct competition to System/360. They never managed to get the whole RAS thing right, so the mainframe shops tended not to pay any attention to the PDP-10 line. They did for the VAX, but by then DEC had learned a few things about maintenance and reliability (and power supplies). > So DEC != minicomputer, although they were the leading manufacturer of that class of machine for many years - indeed, until the microcomputer began overshadowing the mini. It is easy for us to think that, in a sort of techie-hacker-academic way, but when the numbers all shake out, IBM may have had the biggest slice of the pie. We just tend to ignore all those beige minicomputers that were doing boring financial jobs in tax accounting shops and such. Anyway, the real answer is a machine is what it is. -- Will From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Aug 17 19:12:18 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 20:12:18 -0400 Subject: PDP-1 as minicomputer [was RE: OT - sort of] In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikjcLsf7rpKztkbDBY7JsCvacszN9XCVS0bb8Tq@mail.gmail.com> References: <AANLkTi=RENp1PERbsgCgZg4nkHWqPOVKpaqmROydrTqR@mail.gmail.com> <AANLkTi=L4hDaWSFPyO6k4RKjogB23j153gaDOSGyJyk1@mail.gmail.com> <SNT129-W46023395357A7CC046E8AA39C0@phx.gbl> <4C6AAD20.2112.1A44E15@cclist.sydex.com> <FF6AB92D97A23A409701CDBF66F03FCD03DC3E6ECD@505fuji> <AANLkTikjcLsf7rpKztkbDBY7JsCvacszN9XCVS0bb8Tq@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4C6B2562.7060908@neurotica.com> On 8/17/10 7:59 PM, William Donzelli wrote: > Compare apples to oranges - when the VAX-11 line was out, IBM had the > 4300 line. These machines were specifically designed not to require > operations staff, a big infrastructure, pure batch operation, and so > forth. Wow, was the 4300 series really intended to not need an operations staff? If so, they sure did miss the mark there. I worked for a company that had a 4341, and frequently visited four customer sites, with three 4341s and a 4381. (I worked in field service at the time, unfortunately not for IBM) I think the smallest operations staff for any of those intended-to-be-operations-staff-free machines was two employees. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From RichA at vulcan.com Tue Aug 17 19:46:03 2010 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 17:46:03 -0700 Subject: PDP-1 as minicomputer [was RE: OT - sort of] In-Reply-To: <E1OlTGe-0002jf-T5@shell.xmission.com> References: Your message of Tue, 17 Aug 2010 16:50:52 -0400. <AANLkTi=RENp1PERbsgCgZg4nkHWqPOVKpaqmROydrTqR@mail.gmail.com> <E1OlTGe-0002jf-T5@shell.xmission.com> Message-ID: <CC28F43ED4708D489ABCF68D06D7F556040A5CC9EE@505DENALI.corp.vnw.com> From: Richard Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2010 2:00 PM > In article <AANLkTi=RENp1PERbsgCgZg4nkHWqPOVKpaqmROydrTqR at mail.gmail.com>, > Ethan Dicks <ethan.dicks at gmail.com> writes: >> I'm a bit curious about the working definition, too. I'm by no means >> an expert, but I would have thought that a machine that fell into the >> "minicomputer" category would be based on its size and cost >> substantially below (like 80-90% below) a mainframe, and interactive >> vs batch as the primary method of use. Single-user vs multi-user is >> not a defining element IMO. > OK, I'll go along with your definition; it seems more thought out than > my stab in the dark. > I'd like to hear Rich Alderson's definition though and why he doesn't > include the PDP-1. It's not so much definitional as historical. (I pretty much agree with Ethan's definition, too.) It's simply that when DEC built the PDP-1, they were simply trying to build a powerful computer as small as they could, based on the experience Olsen and Anderson had with the TX-0 and TX-2 at Lincoln Labs. When DEC built the PDP-8, it was a reimplementation of the PDP-5 which was intentionally shrunk into a half-height package. This led to the designation "minicomputer", where "mini-", as someone suggested, was in the Zeitgeist, but this was done in retrospect. DEC called systems like the PDP-8 "small computers" in its sales literature for many years. There was a new impetus in the design of small computers at every computer company, to shrink the box as much as possible and still do the job. All of Silicon Valley and most of Route 128 saw this as the way to go: Small but powerful, rather than large with increasing functionality. From: Richard Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2010 3:29 PM > In article <AANLkTi=7e7EsiL=31Hcgdv3i40voPnsnpomg35oZbL6w at mail.gmail.com>, > Ethan Dicks <ethan.dicks at gmail.com> writes: >> On 8/17/10, dwight elvey <dkelvey at hotmail.com> wrote: >>> IBM had a series of small computers they called minis that used >>> water cooling. These where about the size of three standard desk, >>> end-to-end. >> Hmm... of all the judges of "what is a minicomputer", IBM does not >> rise to the top of my list. > How about Series/1? The Series/1 was the first entry by IBM into the minicomputer market as such. (It was also their first to use ASCII rather than EBCDIC--no one AFAIK ever *used* ASCII on the 360--which led to its use as the 4994 terminal server, after a Series/1 customer made it clear that it could do the job.) It was a 16-bit machine introduced at a time when companies which had been selling minis for years were moving from 16- to 32-bit "superminis"--most especially the Digital VAX and Data General Eclipse MV. From: Ian King Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2010 4:04 PM >> From: Chuck Guzis >> Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2010 3:39 PM >> With the PDP-1, I wonder if the the "mini" applied more to cost than >> physical size. That's still a retro view of the PDP-1. It was small and inexpensive at its introduction, therefore it must have been a mini? I say, no. > Is a VAX-11 a minicomputer? As someone who was making a living as an applications programmer when the VAX was announced, and who read _The Soul of a New Machine_ when it was serialized in _Computerworld_, I can say for certain that the VAX and its competition were called "superminis" at the time: 32 bit processors, big address spaces, mainframe-class operating systems, etc. The 4300 family from IBM were precisely what they were aiming at. Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.PDPplanet.org/ http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From RichA at vulcan.com Tue Aug 17 20:03:34 2010 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 18:03:34 -0700 Subject: OT - sort of In-Reply-To: <m1OlSs6-000J3uC@p850ug1> References: <4C6973C3.30102@tx.rr.com> from "Charlie Carothers" at Aug 16, 10 12:22:11 pm <m1OlSs6-000J3uC@p850ug1> Message-ID: <CC28F43ED4708D489ABCF68D06D7F556040A5CC9EF@505DENALI.corp.vnw.com> From: Tony Duell Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2010 1:35 PM >> I did not even know there *was* a PDP-1, which is not surprising I guess > I can't remember just which of the PDP-n series were actually produced, > but it's more than the PDP-8 and PDP-11 that most people remember these > days. PDP-1: 18 bits, 1960-1964 PDP-2: 24 bits, paper design, never built PDP-3: 36 bits, one built by a customer (DEC would sell you parts and plans) an extended PDP-1, unrelated to later 36-bit systems PDP-4: 18 bits, 1962-1964; 5/8 the power at 2/3 the price. Not popular. PDP-5: 12 bits, 1962-1964 PDP-6: 36 bits, 1964-1965; 23 built, nearly bankrupted DEC; first commercial system from any manufacturer with timesharing hardware built in from the start; intended for AI research (LISP creator John McCarthy advised on the design) as well as general computing PDP-7: 18 bits, 1964-1966; DEC's most successful model to that time, first use of FlipChips PDP-8: 12 bits, 1965-1967; reimplementation of PDP-5 in FlipChips, first bus architecture from DEC PDP-9: 18 bits, 1966-1969; smaller, faster PDP-7 PDP-10: 36 bits, 1967-1970+; FlipChip implementation of PDP-6 architecture PDP-11: 16 bits, 1969-1990; DEC surrendered to the 8-bit byte IBM disease PDP-12: 12 bits, 1970?; PDP-8/i with additional LINC capabilities PDP-14: build-it-yourself PDP-15: 18 bits, 1970-1975; added index register to PDP-4/7/9 architecture, capable of addressing up to 128K words PDP-16: build-it-yourself They skipped 13, and stopped calling new systems PDP-x. The follow models of the PDP-10 were christened DECsystem-10 and DECSYSTEM-20 (defined at first by the processor, and after a customer revolt by the microcode and OS in the later models). NB: I didn't bother to go look at the exact dates in Bell, McNamara & Mudge. Those are close enough for government work. Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.PDPplanet.org/ http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From RichA at vulcan.com Tue Aug 17 20:12:42 2010 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 18:12:42 -0700 Subject: PDP-1 as minicomputer [was RE: OT - sort of] In-Reply-To: <4C6B2562.7060908@neurotica.com> References: <AANLkTi=RENp1PERbsgCgZg4nkHWqPOVKpaqmROydrTqR@mail.gmail.com> <AANLkTi=L4hDaWSFPyO6k4RKjogB23j153gaDOSGyJyk1@mail.gmail.com> <SNT129-W46023395357A7CC046E8AA39C0@phx.gbl> <4C6AAD20.2112.1A44E15@cclist.sydex.com> <FF6AB92D97A23A409701CDBF66F03FCD03DC3E6ECD@505fuji> <AANLkTikjcLsf7rpKztkbDBY7JsCvacszN9XCVS0bb8Tq@mail.gmail.com> <4C6B2562.7060908@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <CC28F43ED4708D489ABCF68D06D7F556040A5CC9F0@505DENALI.corp.vnw.com> From: Dave McGuire Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2010 5:12 PM > On 8/17/10 7:59 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >> Compare apples to oranges - when the VAX-11 line was out, IBM had the >> 4300 line. These machines were specifically designed not to require >> operations staff, a big infrastructure, pure batch operation, and so >> forth. > Wow, was the 4300 series really intended to not need an operations > staff? If so, they sure did miss the mark there. > I worked for a company that had a 4341, and frequently visited four > customer sites, with three 4341s and a 4381. (I worked in field service > at the time, unfortunately not for IBM) I think the smallest operations > staff for any of those intended-to-be-operations-staff-free machines was > two employees. Ahh, but Dave, the typical IBM mainframe shop required 8-12 operators. >From that point of view, the 4300s were marvels of low operational staff. At the University of Chicago, I was friends with the lead graduate student on the STEM (Scanning Transmission Electron Microscope), the one that made the IBM logo out of individual gold atoms. Their graphics processor was a 4361--and they had no professional operations staff at all. The grad students did the minimal amount to get it running, and that was all. Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.PDPplanet.org/ http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From thomas.gardner at sbcglobal.net Tue Aug 17 20:31:33 2010 From: thomas.gardner at sbcglobal.net (Tom Gardner) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 18:31:33 -0700 Subject: PDP-1 as minicomputer In-Reply-To: <mailman.43.1282086233.1006.cctalk@classiccmp.org> References: <mailman.43.1282086233.1006.cctalk@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <C318597D1B2543DEB5048BC10DF88429@tegp4> The earliest use of the term "minicomputer" is about 1968 (Google news, other sources). FWIW, I also think relatively small physical size was a necessary condition for a computer to be characterized as a minicomputer at least thru the mid 70s. IMHO the IBM 1130 introduced in 1965 is an early if not the first minicomputer. To quote the 1965 IBM announcement: "The desk-sized 1130 is designed for individual use by engineers, scientists and mathematicians. But with its range of peripheral units, the 1130 also will be used in such fields as publishing, construction, finance, manufacturing and distribution." Tom > Message: 3 > Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 11:24:50 -0700 > From: Rich Alderson <RichA at vulcan.com> > Subject: PDP-1 as minicomputer [was RE: OT - sort of] > To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" > <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > Message-ID: > <CC28F43ED4708D489ABCF68D06D7F556040A5CC9EA at 505DENALI.corp.vnw.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > From: Tony Duell > Sent: Friday, August 13, 2010 11:19 AM > > >> Yep, that makes a lot more sense. In 1960 I suppose about the only > >> thing to play a computer game on would have been either a mini or a > >> mainframe - actually I think it would have had to be a mainframe. <snip> > Arguing that anything before the PDP-8 was a "minicomputer" is > revisionism. > IMAO. > > > Rich Alderson <snip> From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Aug 17 20:34:12 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 21:34:12 -0400 Subject: PDP-1 as minicomputer [was RE: OT - sort of] In-Reply-To: <CC28F43ED4708D489ABCF68D06D7F556040A5CC9F0@505DENALI.corp.vnw.com> References: <AANLkTi=RENp1PERbsgCgZg4nkHWqPOVKpaqmROydrTqR@mail.gmail.com> <AANLkTi=L4hDaWSFPyO6k4RKjogB23j153gaDOSGyJyk1@mail.gmail.com> <SNT129-W46023395357A7CC046E8AA39C0@phx.gbl> <4C6AAD20.2112.1A44E15@cclist.sydex.com> <FF6AB92D97A23A409701CDBF66F03FCD03DC3E6ECD@505fuji> <AANLkTikjcLsf7rpKztkbDBY7JsCvacszN9XCVS0bb8Tq@mail.gmail.com> <4C6B2562.7060908@neurotica.com> <CC28F43ED4708D489ABCF68D06D7F556040A5CC9F0@505DENALI.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <AANLkTikV=C83_9yKMmyWaYyP8qMpJjxMEy6yUVqcJ_Jv@mail.gmail.com> > At the University of Chicago, I was friends with the lead graduate student > on the STEM (Scanning Transmission Electron Microscope), the one that made > the IBM logo out of individual gold atoms. ?Their graphics processor was > a 4361--and they had no professional operations staff at all. ?The grad > students did the minimal amount to get it running, and that was all. My 4331 came from a shop that was run by a couple of guys, and was turned off every weekend when they went home. It ran for 25 years and never had a service call. The IMPL diskette (the boot disk media) finally wore out - wore thin from being read every Monday - so to boot the machine, I need to do a song and dance act to fill in some dropped bits. The 3830 disk control also has an IMPL floppy, and that still works, but is well on its way out. That box also never broke down while these guys ran it. The 3420 tape drives were quite reliable, but towards the end, they had to replace hoses that were drying out. The 3350 disks were the most troublesome, but even there 5 of the 8 spindles are fine. And the datacenter had a resident cat. It was not exactly the cleanest computer space I have ever been in. -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Aug 17 20:39:40 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 21:39:40 -0400 Subject: PDP-1 as minicomputer [was RE: OT - sort of] In-Reply-To: <CC28F43ED4708D489ABCF68D06D7F556040A5CC9EE@505DENALI.corp.vnw.com> References: <AANLkTi=RENp1PERbsgCgZg4nkHWqPOVKpaqmROydrTqR@mail.gmail.com> <E1OlTGe-0002jf-T5@shell.xmission.com> <CC28F43ED4708D489ABCF68D06D7F556040A5CC9EE@505DENALI.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <AANLkTim_tB_D0+u+sNwvr6ats+QZD4yb5QXqCE2vJEE_@mail.gmail.com> > The Series/1 was the first entry by IBM into the minicomputer market as > such. 1620? 1130? 1800? S/3? S/32? S/34? > ?(It was also their first to use ASCII rather than EBCDIC--no one > AFAIK ever *used* ASCII on the 360--which led to its use as the 4994 > terminal server, after a Series/1 customer made it clear that it could > do the job.) ?It was a 16-bit machine introduced at a time when companies > which had been selling minis for years were moving from 16- to 32-bit > "superminis"--most especially the Digital VAX and Data General Eclipse MV. S/1s were slow, the operating systems were a disgrace, but they were bulletproof, and could beat the crap out of most other minicomputers when it came to moving data around. This is why the only real win S/1s ever really had was internally at IBM - they were used in various communication boxes and front ends (7171, for example), because they could move data faster than the 3725. They were also used as the processor in the 7361 Fastdraft CAD system. -- Will From cclist at sydex.com Tue Aug 17 20:41:28 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 18:41:28 -0700 Subject: PDP-1 as minicomputer In-Reply-To: <C318597D1B2543DEB5048BC10DF88429@tegp4> References: <mailman.43.1282086233.1006.cctalk@classiccmp.org>, <C318597D1B2543DEB5048BC10DF88429@tegp4> Message-ID: <4C6AD7D8.26459.24B2C96@cclist.sydex.com> On 17 Aug 2010 at 18:31, Tom Gardner wrote: > IMHO the IBM 1130 introduced in 1965 is an early if not the first > minicomputer. To quote the 1965 IBM announcement: "The desk-sized 1130 > is designed for individual use by engineers, scientists and > mathematicians. But with its range of peripheral units, the 1130 also > will be used in such fields as publishing, construction, finance, > manufacturing and distribution." ...but not the 1620? --Chuck From doc at vaxen.net Tue Aug 17 20:46:24 2010 From: doc at vaxen.net (Doc Shipley) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 20:46:24 -0500 Subject: PDP-1 as minicomputer [was RE: OT - sort of] In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikjcLsf7rpKztkbDBY7JsCvacszN9XCVS0bb8Tq@mail.gmail.com> References: <AANLkTi=RENp1PERbsgCgZg4nkHWqPOVKpaqmROydrTqR@mail.gmail.com> <AANLkTi=L4hDaWSFPyO6k4RKjogB23j153gaDOSGyJyk1@mail.gmail.com> <SNT129-W46023395357A7CC046E8AA39C0@phx.gbl> <4C6AAD20.2112.1A44E15@cclist.sydex.com> <FF6AB92D97A23A409701CDBF66F03FCD03DC3E6ECD@505fuji> <AANLkTikjcLsf7rpKztkbDBY7JsCvacszN9XCVS0bb8Tq@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4C6B3B70.7060809@vaxen.net> On 8/17/10 6:59 PM, William Donzelli wrote: > It is easy for us to think that, in a sort of techie-hacker-academic > way, but when the numbers all shake out, IBM may have had the biggest > slice of the pie. We just tend to ignore all those beige minicomputers > that were doing boring financial jobs in tax accounting shops and > such. Heh. That's very true of IBM today, too, with the POWER family and zSeries. Very few people realize how much of the midrange market IBM owns. Doc From legalize at xmission.com Tue Aug 17 20:56:09 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 19:56:09 -0600 Subject: Onyx2 cube In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 17 Aug 2010 19:03:22 -0400. <BLU139-W34168ED690125866233B11C99C0@phx.gbl> Message-ID: <E1OlXsv-0007qB-OP@shell.xmission.com> In article <BLU139-W34168ED690125866233B11C99C0 at phx.gbl>, Dan Gahlinger <dgahling at hotmail.com> writes: > as to what graphics specifically, I have no idea Can you run hinv on it? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com/the-direct3d-graphics-pipeline/> Legalize Adulthood! <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com> From cclist at sydex.com Tue Aug 17 21:20:08 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 19:20:08 -0700 Subject: PDP-1 as minicomputer [was RE: OT - sort of] In-Reply-To: <AANLkTim_tB_D0+u+sNwvr6ats+QZD4yb5QXqCE2vJEE_@mail.gmail.com> References: <AANLkTi=RENp1PERbsgCgZg4nkHWqPOVKpaqmROydrTqR@mail.gmail.com>, <CC28F43ED4708D489ABCF68D06D7F556040A5CC9EE@505DENALI.corp.vnw.com>, <AANLkTim_tB_D0+u+sNwvr6ats+QZD4yb5QXqCE2vJEE_@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4C6AE0E8.9307.26E9151@cclist.sydex.com> On 17 Aug 2010 at 21:39, William Donzelli wrote: > 1620? 1130? 1800? S/3? S/32? S/34? Was the LGP-30 a minicomputer? That's what, 1956? --Chuck From dgahling at hotmail.com Tue Aug 17 21:27:52 2010 From: dgahling at hotmail.com (Dan Gahlinger) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 22:27:52 -0400 Subject: Onyx2 cube In-Reply-To: <E1OlXsv-0007qB-OP@shell.xmission.com> References: Your message of Tue, 17 Aug 2010 19:03:22 -0400. Message-ID: <BLU139-W15D39857668800C95AD9DDC99D0@phx.gbl> its sitting in a corner in my garage, so the answer is no :) > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Onyx2 cube > From: legalize at xmission.com > Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 19:56:09 -0600 > > > In article <BLU139-W34168ED690125866233B11C99C0 at phx.gbl>, > Dan Gahlinger <dgahling at hotmail.com> writes: > > > as to what graphics specifically, I have no idea > > Can you run hinv on it? > -- > "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download > <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com/the-direct3d-graphics-pipeline/> > > Legalize Adulthood! <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com> From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Aug 17 21:31:43 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 22:31:43 -0400 Subject: PDP-1 as minicomputer [was RE: OT - sort of] In-Reply-To: <4C6AE0E8.9307.26E9151@cclist.sydex.com> References: <AANLkTi=RENp1PERbsgCgZg4nkHWqPOVKpaqmROydrTqR@mail.gmail.com> <CC28F43ED4708D489ABCF68D06D7F556040A5CC9EE@505DENALI.corp.vnw.com> <AANLkTim_tB_D0+u+sNwvr6ats+QZD4yb5QXqCE2vJEE_@mail.gmail.com> <4C6AE0E8.9307.26E9151@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <AANLkTimAO2whKwgDjfVV7wqhRweUDDi0qOrCR+zhdg6g@mail.gmail.com> > Was the LGP-30 a minicomputer? ?That's what, 1956? I was pointing out IBM minis that predate the S/1. I forgot S/7 and 3790 (maybe - these came out right around when S/1s came out). -- Will From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Aug 17 21:33:35 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 22:33:35 -0400 Subject: PDP-1 as minicomputer [was RE: OT - sort of] In-Reply-To: <CC28F43ED4708D489ABCF68D06D7F556040A5CC9F0@505DENALI.corp.vnw.com> References: <AANLkTi=RENp1PERbsgCgZg4nkHWqPOVKpaqmROydrTqR@mail.gmail.com> <AANLkTi=L4hDaWSFPyO6k4RKjogB23j153gaDOSGyJyk1@mail.gmail.com> <SNT129-W46023395357A7CC046E8AA39C0@phx.gbl> <4C6AAD20.2112.1A44E15@cclist.sydex.com> <FF6AB92D97A23A409701CDBF66F03FCD03DC3E6ECD@505fuji> <AANLkTikjcLsf7rpKztkbDBY7JsCvacszN9XCVS0bb8Tq@mail.gmail.com> <4C6B2562.7060908@neurotica.com> <CC28F43ED4708D489ABCF68D06D7F556040A5CC9F0@505DENALI.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <4C6B467F.8010103@neurotica.com> On 8/17/10 9:12 PM, Rich Alderson wrote: >>> Compare apples to oranges - when the VAX-11 line was out, IBM had the >>> 4300 line. These machines were specifically designed not to require >>> operations staff, a big infrastructure, pure batch operation, and so >>> forth. > >> Wow, was the 4300 series really intended to not need an operations >> staff? If so, they sure did miss the mark there. > >> I worked for a company that had a 4341, and frequently visited four >> customer sites, with three 4341s and a 4381. (I worked in field service >> at the time, unfortunately not for IBM) I think the smallest operations >> staff for any of those intended-to-be-operations-staff-free machines was >> two employees. > > Ahh, but Dave, the typical IBM mainframe shop required 8-12 operators. >>From that point of view, the 4300s were marvels of low operational staff. Point taken. ;) > At the University of Chicago, I was friends with the lead graduate student > on the STEM (Scanning Transmission Electron Microscope), the one that made > the IBM logo out of individual gold atoms. Their graphics processor was > a 4361--and they had no professional operations staff at all. The grad > students did the minimal amount to get it running, and that was all. Nice! -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Aug 17 21:41:04 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 19:41:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: PDP-1 as minicomputer [was RE: OT - sort of] In-Reply-To: <AANLkTi=RENp1PERbsgCgZg4nkHWqPOVKpaqmROydrTqR@mail.gmail.com> References: <CC28F43ED4708D489ABCF68D06D7F556040A5CC9EA@505DENALI.corp.vnw.com> <E1OlSjD-0001Qr-QC@shell.xmission.com> <AANLkTi=RENp1PERbsgCgZg4nkHWqPOVKpaqmROydrTqR@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20100817193547.I45518@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 17 Aug 2010, Ethan Dicks wrote: > I'm a bit curious about the working definition, too. I'm by no means > an expert, but I would have thought that a machine that fell into the > "minicomputer" category would be based on its size and cost > . . . > But it all depends on how you define "minicomputer" as to what > specifically falls in the category. Who originally created the term? marketing?? Can you pick it up and carry it? Does it have casters, or do you use a handtruck? Does it require a forklift and a union moving crew? Can you lose a screw in it? Can you lose a screwdriver in it? Can you lose a scope in it? Can you lose a person in it? Who are the sides in the most prevalent religious battles? What do the neighbors say about your collection? -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Aug 17 21:43:24 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 20:43:24 -0600 Subject: OT - sort of In-Reply-To: <CC28F43ED4708D489ABCF68D06D7F556040A5CC9EF@505DENALI.corp.vnw.com> References: <4C6973C3.30102@tx.rr.com> from "Charlie Carothers" at Aug 16, 10 12:22:11 pm <m1OlSs6-000J3uC@p850ug1> <CC28F43ED4708D489ABCF68D06D7F556040A5CC9EF@505DENALI.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <4C6B48CC.1030502@brouhaha.com> Rich Alderson wrote: > PDP-14: build-it-yourself It wasn't really build-it-yourself. It was wire-it-to-industrial-controls-and-program-it-yourself, which isn't that much different than the PDP-8 and PDP-11 systems intended for lab or industrial use. The big difference is that the PDP-14 is programmed using ladder logic; it's basically a PLC. > PDP-16: build-it-yourself The PDP-16 was build-it-yourself, but wasn't necessarily a computer. It was called "Register Transfer Modules". It would typically be hardwired rather than having a stored program. The general approach was asynchronous logic as previously used in various processors such as the KA10. Each functional unit sends a pulse to trigger the next unit in the flow. However, there was a "standard" PDP-16 computer, the PDP-16/M. I doubt that they shipped very many, as it was more expensive than a PDP-11/05 but less powerful and DEC had no supporting software. > The follow models of the PDP-10 were christened DECsystem-10 and > DECSYSTEM-20 Those were the system names; the processor was still called a PDP-10, and the specific processor models were known by their option names, KA10, KI10, KL10, and KS10. Eric From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Aug 17 21:48:32 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 19:48:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: PDP-1 as minicomputer [was RE: OT - sort of] In-Reply-To: <4C6AA1ED.23394.1788E21@cclist.sydex.com> References: <AANLkTi=RENp1PERbsgCgZg4nkHWqPOVKpaqmROydrTqR@mail.gmail.com>, <E1OlTGe-0002jf-T5@shell.xmission.com>, <AANLkTimALAWzmEw2FMkBinMbQPFcsif35EKX0+AcPO08@mail.gmail.com> <4C6AA1ED.23394.1788E21@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20100817194658.V45518@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 17 Aug 2010, Chuck Guzis wrote: > My own personal yardstick is that a "minicomputer" is something that > can be run from a single 120V 20A lighting circuit. The PB250 > qualifies; the 160A does not--and neither does the PDP-1. > Others may use their own yardsticks. Batteries or "battery charger" Mains outlet Range/clothes dryer circuit Industrial service Three phase Delta Three Phase "Y" From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Aug 17 21:59:07 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 19:59:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: PDP-1 as minicomputer [was RE: OT - sort of] In-Reply-To: <FF6AB92D97A23A409701CDBF66F03FCD03DC3E6ECE@505fuji> References: <AANLkTi=7e7EsiL=31Hcgdv3i40voPnsnpomg35oZbL6w@mail.gmail.com> <E1OlUeU-0002Bi-HQ@shell.xmission.com> <AANLkTi=5hwDMPFjqhobXzRtLja_Q_jDHvC0Fu_+eV-hM@mail.gmail.com> <FF6AB92D97A23A409701CDBF66F03FCD03DC3E6ECE@505fuji> Message-ID: <20100817195804.H45518@shell.lmi.net> > > There is a classic Data General ad that ran when IBM was introducing > > the S/1 to "legitimize the minicomputer market". The Data General ad > > said "The bastards say, welcome". > > Bruce Ray may be looking for this ad for a scan. > I'm almost certain I've seen that ad, which either means (a) Bruce already has it or (b) I'm older than I realize. -- Ian Along with it, locate the "welcome" ad that Apple ran when the 5150 came out From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Aug 17 22:26:33 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 21:26:33 -0600 Subject: PDP-1 as minicomputer [was RE: OT - sort of] In-Reply-To: <20100817195804.H45518@shell.lmi.net> References: <AANLkTi=7e7EsiL=31Hcgdv3i40voPnsnpomg35oZbL6w@mail.gmail.com> <E1OlUeU-0002Bi-HQ@shell.xmission.com> <AANLkTi=5hwDMPFjqhobXzRtLja_Q_jDHvC0Fu_+eV-hM@mail.gmail.com> <FF6AB92D97A23A409701CDBF66F03FCD03DC3E6ECE@505fuji> <20100817195804.H45518@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4C6B52E9.2070003@brouhaha.com> Fred Cisin wrote: > Along with it, locate the "welcome" ad that Apple ran when the 5150 came > out August 22, 1981 Wall Street Journal: http://www.macmothership.com/gallery/newads2/seriouslyIBM_l.jpg From huw.davies at mail.vsm.com.au Tue Aug 17 09:18:44 2010 From: huw.davies at mail.vsm.com.au (Huw Davies) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 00:18:44 +1000 Subject: PDP-1 movies In-Reply-To: <4C69C2CF.50503@tx.rr.com> References: <4C69C2CF.50503@tx.rr.com> Message-ID: <40D85739-4F9F-451F-A84B-70798E096B28@kerberos.davies.net.au> On 17/08/2010, at 8:59 AM, Charlie Carothers wrote: > Kind folks, > I was just wondering if anyone else is able to view the 3 movies near the bottom of http://pdp-1.computerhistory.org/pdp-1/index.php?f=theme&s=2 > For me, each one runs for a bit and then just stops. Windows task manager shows no internet activity at that point. If I bring up some other page and then go back there, the video gets a bit further each time before seizing up again. Perhaps if I had infinite patience I could eventually see them all the way through. Any idea what might cause this? > Thanks, > Charlie C. Sadly the same here (Firefox, Mac OS-X), so I think we can conclude that it's a problem at the far end. Pity, listening to Ken brings back lots of fond memories. Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies at kerberos.davies.net.au Melbourne | "If soccer was meant to be played in the Australia | air, the sky would be painted green" From bienvenue at datex.fr Tue Aug 17 12:34:44 2010 From: bienvenue at datex.fr (Datex) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 19:34:44 +0200 Subject: Datex floppy drive emulator - flash based replacement for magnetic Message-ID: <580cca5a58809294889fd10c94412b87@mwinf5d13.me-wanadoo.net> Dear Marcus, You talk about our product ..thank you ! But it will be better to contact us , and i can explain to you why our products are expensives .. Do you know really the price ? Do you remember also what was the price of the product we are replacing when they had been sold ? As examples :(and i can give to you a lot..) -The RD54 from DEC was a Maxtor XT2190 with DEC format. DEC price list , as formatted unit , was 9200 USD , 20 years ago !!! -The Shugart SA850 , 8 inches floppy drive ,price list through their resellers..2800 USD...30 years ago !! A lot of industries and "others" are still using them for differents reasons and they need to be replace as simple they want without changing any software , nothing !! just to unplug the drive ..and plug emulator , and then start again !!.. We also offer to copy "bit per bit" their data and format , because often they are no more able to do the format.. You can conatct me at glb at datex.fr Best regards. Guy LE BOUGEANT. President. From jws at jwsss.com Tue Aug 17 18:19:23 2010 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 16:19:23 -0700 Subject: PDP-1 as minicomputer [was RE: OT - sort of] In-Reply-To: <AANLkTi=5hwDMPFjqhobXzRtLja_Q_jDHvC0Fu_+eV-hM@mail.gmail.com> References: <AANLkTi=7e7EsiL=31Hcgdv3i40voPnsnpomg35oZbL6w@mail.gmail.com> <E1OlUeU-0002Bi-HQ@shell.xmission.com> <AANLkTi=5hwDMPFjqhobXzRtLja_Q_jDHvC0Fu_+eV-hM@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4C6B18FB.106@jwsss.com> > >> How about Series/1? >> > There is a classic Data General ad that ran when IBM was introducing > the S/1 to "legitimize the minicomputer market". The Data General ad > said "The bastards say, welcome". > > Bruce Ray may be looking for this ad for a scan. > > -- > Will > > > One of my friends has a Series/1 that was used as a front end for Ascii serial terminals on a Pick (Ultimate) system for the Ibm mainframe. You could use the 7171 up to a point then switch to the Series/1. There was a 68000 based series of controllers called Hyfas (??) that fitted in the aircooled mainframes that we later used for serial I/O. Seattle OS also had a full Pick implementation that ran on the Series/1, but missed their marketing window and didn't capitalize on their franchise before running out of money. From geoffr at zipcon.net Tue Aug 17 22:56:05 2010 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoffrey Reed) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 20:56:05 -0700 Subject: EPROM programming (27c160's) In-Reply-To: <4C6A5BF0.11077.67291E@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <C890A7E5.26FDF%geoffr@zipcon.net> On 8/17/10 9:52 AM, "Chuck Guzis" <cclist at sydex.com> wrote: > On 17 Aug 2010 at 7:18, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > >> >>> A word of warning about the sivava programmer: It's a modified >>> Willem unit with its own special software. The developer forked the >>> Willem project and never released his changes. Caused a lot of >>> rancor. >> >> http://www.py2bbs.qsl.br/willem_pcb45.php >> >> Modifying a regular willem for 4.5 software > > On the subject, does anyone have any experience with the Genius G540? > It claims to be able to program GALs as well as (E)EPROMs and there's > a 16-bit adapter for it. The price is very attractive. > > --Chuck I have been programming eproms with one for an N8VEM z-80 board, and also for some door controller devices :), and have blanked some GAL chips with it, but I have yet to actually program something into a GAL with it. It is definitely less painful to get cabled up than my Xtronics pocket programmer. From legalize at xmission.com Wed Aug 18 00:32:07 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 23:32:07 -0600 Subject: Onyx2 cube In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 17 Aug 2010 22:27:52 -0400. <BLU139-W15D39857668800C95AD9DDC99D0@phx.gbl> Message-ID: <E1OlbFv-0005FM-IB@shell.xmission.com> In article <BLU139-W15D39857668800C95AD9DDC99D0 at phx.gbl>, Dan Gahlinger <dgahling at hotmail.com> writes: > its sitting in a corner in my garage, so the answer is no :) Ah, then we'd have to identify the graphics based on the boards that are installed in it. Fairly easy to do actually. Assuming you care enough to find out :-) -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com/the-direct3d-graphics-pipeline/> Legalize Adulthood! <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com> From legalize at xmission.com Wed Aug 18 00:35:05 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 23:35:05 -0600 Subject: PDP-1 as minicomputer [was RE: OT - sort of] In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 17 Aug 2010 21:26:33 -0600. <4C6B52E9.2070003@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <E1OlbIn-00061A-8I@shell.xmission.com> In article <4C6B52E9.2070003 at brouhaha.com>, Eric Smith <eric at brouhaha.com> writes: > Fred Cisin wrote: > > Along with it, locate the "welcome" ad that Apple ran when the 5150 came > > out > > August 22, 1981 Wall Street Journal: > > http://www.macmothership.com/gallery/newads2/seriouslyIBM_l.jpg Shit, its disappointing to see the Apple ][ era Apple being so smug and snotty. I thought they only picked that up after Mac came out. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com/the-direct3d-graphics-pipeline/> Legalize Adulthood! <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com> From pontus at Update.UU.SE Wed Aug 18 00:41:50 2010 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 07:41:50 +0200 Subject: Onyx2 cube In-Reply-To: <E1OlbFv-0005FM-IB@shell.xmission.com> References: <BLU139-W15D39857668800C95AD9DDC99D0@phx.gbl> <E1OlbFv-0005FM-IB@shell.xmission.com> Message-ID: <20100818054150.GA16048@Update.UU.SE> On Tue, Aug 17, 2010 at 11:32:07PM -0600, Richard wrote: > > In article <BLU139-W15D39857668800C95AD9DDC99D0 at phx.gbl>, > Dan Gahlinger <dgahling at hotmail.com> writes: > > > its sitting in a corner in my garage, so the answer is no :) > > Ah, then we'd have to identify the graphics based on the boards that > are installed in it. Fairly easy to do actually. Assuming you care > enough to find out :-) I think it is just a matter of reading the part number of the back of the boards? And if those are peeled off you might have to start it. I guess you know of nekochan.net, it's an excellent resource for SGI-owners. I have and Origin2000 deskside I'm playing with now and an Onyx rack for later :) They are quite nice machines. /P From quapla at xs4all.nl Wed Aug 18 02:57:18 2010 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (E. Groenenberg) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 09:57:18 +0200 Subject: KA640 + mem available Message-ID: <1fc83aaee643fda58f5a71ab70fa273c.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> For the cost of postage, a KA640-CL 'Mayfair II' processor board (M7624) & 2 M7609 memoryboards. It's a pull from a working machine. Items are in The Netherlands. Contact me off list if interested. -- Dit is een HTML vrije email / This is an HTML free email. From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Wed Aug 18 04:39:26 2010 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 11:39:26 +0200 (CEST) Subject: PDP-1 as minicomputer [was RE: OT - sort of] In-Reply-To: <AANLkTi=L4hDaWSFPyO6k4RKjogB23j153gaDOSGyJyk1@mail.gmail.com> References: <AANLkTi=RENp1PERbsgCgZg4nkHWqPOVKpaqmROydrTqR@mail.gmail.com> <E1OlTGe-0002jf-T5@shell.xmission.com> <AANLkTimALAWzmEw2FMkBinMbQPFcsif35EKX0+AcPO08@mail.gmail.com> <4C6AA1ED.23394.1788E21@cclist.sydex.com> <AANLkTi=L4hDaWSFPyO6k4RKjogB23j153gaDOSGyJyk1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008181135270.18462@linuxserv.home> On Tue, 17 Aug 2010, Ethan Dicks wrote: > Hmm... I'm not sure the Straight-8 qualifies by that yardstick. 30A > 120V circuit, no problem. 20A, I'm not as confident. Ehm, a Straight-8 only needs a few hundred watts (maybe 200W). We run it together with the Tennecomp tape system from a smallish step-down transformer without problems. Seems like American current is quite different from European current ;-) Christian From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Wed Aug 18 04:43:23 2010 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 11:43:23 +0200 (CEST) Subject: PDP-1 as minicomputer In-Reply-To: <C318597D1B2543DEB5048BC10DF88429@tegp4> References: <mailman.43.1282086233.1006.cctalk@classiccmp.org> <C318597D1B2543DEB5048BC10DF88429@tegp4> Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1008181142030.18462@linuxserv.home> On Tue, 17 Aug 2010, Tom Gardner wrote: > IMHO the IBM 1130 introduced in 1965 is an early if not the first > minicomputer. To quote the 1965 IBM announcement: > "The desk-sized 1130 is designed for individual use by engineers, scientists The LGP-30 was there 10 years before and even smaller than an 1130. Christian From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Wed Aug 18 05:19:57 2010 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 03:19:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: need 35 P112 preorders Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.1.10.1008180310480.11841@sleipnir.cs.csubak.edu> So far I've gotten only four P112 kits preordered. I need at least 35 of them preordered to get the thing rolling. Paypal will only allow me to do refunds and get the fees back within 60 days of a payment. 60 days after the first preorder is October 11. Because of that, I'm moving the preorder cutoff date to October 11. If I can't get enough preorders, all money will be refunded. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From trebor77 at execpc.com Wed Aug 18 07:11:24 2010 From: trebor77 at execpc.com (Robert J. Stevens) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 07:11:24 -0500 Subject: How about Series/1? In-Reply-To: <mailman.45.1282109537.1006.cctalk@classiccmp.org> References: <mailman.45.1282109537.1006.cctalk@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <4C6BCDEC.2070003@execpc.com> How about Series/1? The Series/1 was the first entry by IBM into the minicomputer market as such. I just happen to have one sitting in my Basement. Brought it home around 1992 but never got it up and running. Should have added a 110 Volt 30 AMP Circuit but didn't. Its a 4952/4953 Half Rack W/a 9Meg HD setup for 110 Volts. Plus I have a external Floppy drive that used to work. I had an IBM Guy convert a 4955 Model E to 110 volt but I also have to original 4952. I plan on firing up the individual components through my Lab-Volt with a variable 120 Volt 3.5 Ampere Output if that will work without blowing something. "Any Thoughts Anyone???" Anyone out there running a tape drive setup that could read 6250 10" reels. I have about a Dozen, mostly backup tapes from the Working system. One is an IBM Diagnostic Tape. Maybe I can get in running. Going out west for a couple of weeks to Pan out some Gold flakes. A couple of Ounces will give me some cash to work with. Been retired since 1996 so Income is sparse. Bob in Wisconsin From dgahling at hotmail.com Wed Aug 18 08:39:50 2010 From: dgahling at hotmail.com (Dan Gahlinger) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 09:39:50 -0400 Subject: Onyx2 cube In-Reply-To: <20100818054150.GA16048@Update.UU.SE> References: <BLU139-W15D39857668800C95AD9DDC99D0@phx.gbl>, <E1OlbFv-0005FM-IB@shell.xmission.com>, <20100818054150.GA16048@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <BLU139-W353633CFF9DD3231665DFDC99D0@phx.gbl> I just checked, and seems my brain was out to lunch (ok, no jokes). it's an O2, not an onyx2 - it *has* been sitting in a corner of the garage for 5 years untouched til today. in this case it's probably worth quite a bit less :( > Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 07:41:50 +0200 > From: pontus at Update.UU.SE > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Onyx2 cube > > On Tue, Aug 17, 2010 at 11:32:07PM -0600, Richard wrote: > > > > In article <BLU139-W15D39857668800C95AD9DDC99D0 at phx.gbl>, > > Dan Gahlinger <dgahling at hotmail.com> writes: > > > > > its sitting in a corner in my garage, so the answer is no :) > > > > Ah, then we'd have to identify the graphics based on the boards that > > are installed in it. Fairly easy to do actually. Assuming you care > > enough to find out :-) > > I think it is just a matter of reading the part number of the back of > the boards? And if those are peeled off you might have to start it. > > I guess you know of nekochan.net, it's an excellent resource for > SGI-owners. I have and Origin2000 deskside I'm playing with now and an > Onyx rack for later :) They are quite nice machines. > > /P From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Aug 18 08:49:36 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 09:49:36 -0400 Subject: Onyx2 cube In-Reply-To: <BLU139-W353633CFF9DD3231665DFDC99D0@phx.gbl> References: <BLU139-W15D39857668800C95AD9DDC99D0@phx.gbl>, <E1OlbFv-0005FM-IB@shell.xmission.com>, <20100818054150.GA16048@Update.UU.SE> <BLU139-W353633CFF9DD3231665DFDC99D0@phx.gbl> Message-ID: <4C6BE4F0.9050204@neurotica.com> On 8/18/10 9:39 AM, Dan Gahlinger wrote: > I just checked, and seems my brain was out to lunch (ok, no jokes). > > it's an O2, not an onyx2 - it *has* been sitting in a corner of the garage for 5 years untouched til today. Umm wow, quite a difference between an O2 and an Onyx2. ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Aug 18 08:56:26 2010 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 06:56:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Octane video cable... In-Reply-To: <BLU139-W353633CFF9DD3231665DFDC99D0@phx.gbl> References: <BLU139-W15D39857668800C95AD9DDC99D0@phx.gbl>, <E1OlbFv-0005FM-IB@shell.xmission.com>, <20100818054150.GA16048@Update.UU.SE> <BLU139-W353633CFF9DD3231665DFDC99D0@phx.gbl> Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.00.1008180655060.9992@grumble.deltasoft.com> Does anyone here have a video cable suitable for an Octane they'd like to part with? I got a complete system a few weeks ago, but no video cable. :( tnx! g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From dkelvey at hotmail.com Wed Aug 18 08:57:48 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 06:57:48 -0700 Subject: PDP-1 as minicomputer [was RE: OT - sort of] In-Reply-To: <AANLkTim89Zubr0o3M_xpbk01fxpZCG1BRfmn9Tv7RbNA@mail.gmail.com> References: <AANLkTi=RENp1PERbsgCgZg4nkHWqPOVKpaqmROydrTqR@mail.gmail.com>, <E1OlTGe-0002jf-T5@shell.xmission.com>, <AANLkTimALAWzmEw2FMkBinMbQPFcsif35EKX0+AcPO08@mail.gmail.com>, <4C6AA1ED.23394.1788E21@cclist.sydex.com>, <AANLkTi=L4hDaWSFPyO6k4RKjogB23j153gaDOSGyJyk1@mail.gmail.com>, <SNT129-W46023395357A7CC046E8AA39C0@phx.gbl>, <AANLkTim89Zubr0o3M_xpbk01fxpZCG1BRfmn9Tv7RbNA@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <SNT129-W63C6C5EE30BDAF0A97D1CAA39D0@phx.gbl> > From: wdonzelli at gmail.com > > > IBM had a series of small computers they called minis that used > > water cooling. These where about the size of three standard desk, > > end-to-end. > > What machines were these? > > -- > Will Hi Will Looking at newer post, it seems like these were 43xx or something like that. I recall we had a machine the wasn't called a mini and that number ( as I recall ) was a 3081. It was quite big. Dwight From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Aug 18 09:13:30 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 10:13:30 -0400 Subject: PDP-1 as minicomputer [was RE: OT - sort of] In-Reply-To: <SNT129-W63C6C5EE30BDAF0A97D1CAA39D0@phx.gbl> References: <AANLkTi=RENp1PERbsgCgZg4nkHWqPOVKpaqmROydrTqR@mail.gmail.com> <E1OlTGe-0002jf-T5@shell.xmission.com> <AANLkTimALAWzmEw2FMkBinMbQPFcsif35EKX0+AcPO08@mail.gmail.com> <4C6AA1ED.23394.1788E21@cclist.sydex.com> <AANLkTi=L4hDaWSFPyO6k4RKjogB23j153gaDOSGyJyk1@mail.gmail.com> <SNT129-W46023395357A7CC046E8AA39C0@phx.gbl> <AANLkTim89Zubr0o3M_xpbk01fxpZCG1BRfmn9Tv7RbNA@mail.gmail.com> <SNT129-W63C6C5EE30BDAF0A97D1CAA39D0@phx.gbl> Message-ID: <AANLkTin_4puRkfd7AFZVyWuvd+WW6ccRcz+HFH8CHLms@mail.gmail.com> > ?Looking at newer post, it seems like these were 43xx or something like that. > I recall we had a machine the wasn't called a mini and that number ( as > I recall ) was a 3081. It was quite big. OK a little confusion here. The 3081 was indeed the water cooled machine. They generally had a 4361 as the service processor. The 4361 was one of these low-maintenance machines - air cooled, no special power, very reliable. -- Will From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Aug 18 09:14:04 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 10:14:04 -0400 Subject: PDP-1 as minicomputer [was RE: OT - sort of] In-Reply-To: <SNT129-W63C6C5EE30BDAF0A97D1CAA39D0@phx.gbl> References: <AANLkTi=RENp1PERbsgCgZg4nkHWqPOVKpaqmROydrTqR@mail.gmail.com>, <E1OlTGe-0002jf-T5@shell.xmission.com>, <AANLkTimALAWzmEw2FMkBinMbQPFcsif35EKX0+AcPO08@mail.gmail.com>, <4C6AA1ED.23394.1788E21@cclist.sydex.com>, <AANLkTi=L4hDaWSFPyO6k4RKjogB23j153gaDOSGyJyk1@mail.gmail.com>, <SNT129-W46023395357A7CC046E8AA39C0@phx.gbl>, <AANLkTim89Zubr0o3M_xpbk01fxpZCG1BRfmn9Tv7RbNA@mail.gmail.com> <SNT129-W63C6C5EE30BDAF0A97D1CAA39D0@phx.gbl> Message-ID: <4C6BEAAC.2090908@neurotica.com> On 8/18/10 9:57 AM, dwight elvey wrote: >>> IBM had a series of small computers they called minis that used >>> water cooling. These where about the size of three standard desk, >>> end-to-end. >> >> What machines were these? > > Looking at newer post, it seems like these were 43xx or something like that. > I recall we had a machine the wasn't called a mini and that number ( as > I recall ) was a 3081. It was quite big. I thought the whole 4300 series was air-cooled. The 3090, on the other hand, is not, and is a fairly big machine. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From drb at msu.edu Wed Aug 18 09:20:13 2010 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 10:20:13 -0400 Subject: PDP-1 as minicomputer [was RE: OT - sort of] In-Reply-To: (Your message of Wed, 18 Aug 2010 06:57:48 PDT.) <SNT129-W63C6C5EE30BDAF0A97D1CAA39D0@phx.gbl> References: <SNT129-W63C6C5EE30BDAF0A97D1CAA39D0@phx.gbl> <AANLkTi=RENp1PERbsgCgZg4nkHWqPOVKpaqmROydrTqR@mail.gmail.com>, <E1OlTGe-0002jf-T5@shell.xmission.com>, <AANLkTimALAWzmEw2FMkBinMbQPFcsif35EKX0+AcPO08@mail.gmail.com>, <4C6AA1ED.23394.1788E21@cclist.sydex.com>, <AANLkTi=L4hDaWSFPyO6k4RKjogB23j153gaDOSGyJyk1@mail.gmail.com>, <SNT129-W46023395357A7CC046E8AA39C0@phx.gbl>, <AANLkTim89Zubr0o3M_xpbk01fxpZCG1BRfmn9Tv7RbNA@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20100818142013.A920CA5826C@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > Looking at newer post, it seems like these were 43xx or something like > that. I recall we had a machine the wasn't called a mini and that > number ( as I recall ) was a 3081. It was quite big. The 4331 which I helped move into the computer center occupied the floorspace of a single desk, but was a little bit taller, and was an air-cooled system. I believe the 4341 which later replaced it was the same size. They were quite heavy, size notwithstanding. :) The 4381s I met later were double-wide 6' rack cabinets, similar in size to 3380 dasd cabs, but still air cooled. De From legalize at xmission.com Wed Aug 18 09:43:06 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 08:43:06 -0600 Subject: Onyx2 cube In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 18 Aug 2010 09:39:50 -0400. <BLU139-W353633CFF9DD3231665DFDC99D0@phx.gbl> Message-ID: <E1Oljr8-0004BW-Gp@shell.xmission.com> In article <BLU139-W353633CFF9DD3231665DFDC99D0 at phx.gbl>, Dan Gahlinger <dgahling at hotmail.com> writes: > it's an O2, not an onyx2 - it *has* been sitting in a corner of the garage fo r 5 years untouched til today. Ah. Well an O2 is about 1/8th the volume of an Onyx 2. :-) > in this case it's probably worth quite a bit less :( Not necessarily; an O2 is a nice little workstation. Unlike the Octane it doesn't weigh a gajillion pounds either. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com/the-direct3d-graphics-pipeline/> Legalize Adulthood! <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com> From legalize at xmission.com Wed Aug 18 09:44:44 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 08:44:44 -0600 Subject: Octane video cable... In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 18 Aug 2010 06:56:26 -0700. <alpine.LFD.2.00.1008180655060.9992@grumble.deltasoft.com> Message-ID: <E1Oljsi-0004Zr-2M@shell.xmission.com> In article <alpine.LFD.2.00.1008180655060.9992 at grumble.deltasoft.com>, Gene Buckle <geneb at deltasoft.com> writes: > Does anyone here have a video cable suitable for an Octane they'd like to > part with? I got a complete system a few weeks ago, but no video cable. > :( IIRC, these are fairly common as they were used on many SGI and Sun workstations. Its called a 13W3 cable. <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/13W3> If someone here doesn't toss you one gratis, they should be fairly easy and inexpensive to purchase. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com/the-direct3d-graphics-pipeline/> Legalize Adulthood! <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com> From doc at vaxen.net Wed Aug 18 10:31:02 2010 From: doc at vaxen.net (Doc) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 10:31:02 -0500 Subject: Octane video cable... In-Reply-To: <E1Oljsi-0004Zr-2M@shell.xmission.com> References: <E1Oljsi-0004Zr-2M@shell.xmission.com> Message-ID: <4C6BFCB6.5060407@vaxen.net> Richard wrote: > In article <alpine.LFD.2.00.1008180655060.9992 at grumble.deltasoft.com>, > Gene Buckle <geneb at deltasoft.com> writes: > >> Does anyone here have a video cable suitable for an Octane they'd like to >> part with? I got a complete system a few weeks ago, but no video cable. >> :( > > IIRC, these are fairly common as they were used on many SGI and Sun > workstations. Its called a 13W3 cable. > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/13W3> > Sun 13W3 cables do not work correctly with SGIs and most monitors. I disremember what the signal is, but pin 10 needs to be *removed* from the Sun cable. IIRC, SGI is SOG and Sun is composite sync. Doc From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Aug 18 10:44:41 2010 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 08:44:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Octane video cable... In-Reply-To: <E1Oljsi-0004Zr-2M@shell.xmission.com> References: <E1Oljsi-0004Zr-2M@shell.xmission.com> Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.00.1008180806550.12113@grumble.deltasoft.com> On Wed, 18 Aug 2010, Richard wrote: > > In article <alpine.LFD.2.00.1008180655060.9992 at grumble.deltasoft.com>, > Gene Buckle <geneb at deltasoft.com> writes: > >> Does anyone here have a video cable suitable for an Octane they'd like to >> part with? I got a complete system a few weeks ago, but no video cable. >> :( > > IIRC, these are fairly common as they were used on many SGI and Sun > workstations. Its called a 13W3 cable. > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/13W3> > It's my understanding that the Sun 13W3 cable isn't wired the same as the SGI version. > If someone here doesn't toss you one gratis, they should be fairly > easy and inexpensive to purchase. > So far I've only found a 13W3->VGA adapter for $24. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Aug 18 11:25:34 2010 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 09:25:34 -0700 Subject: Origin of the term minicomputer (was Re: PDP-1 as minicomputer [was RE: OT - sort of]) In-Reply-To: <20100817193547.I45518@shell.lmi.net> References: <CC28F43ED4708D489ABCF68D06D7F556040A5CC9EA@505DENALI.corp.vnw.com> <E1OlSjD-0001Qr-QC@shell.xmission.com> <AANLkTi=RENp1PERbsgCgZg4nkHWqPOVKpaqmROydrTqR@mail.gmail.com> <20100817193547.I45518@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4C6C097E.8060908@bitsavers.org> >> But it all depends on how you define "minicomputer" as to what >> specifically falls in the category. > > Who originally created the term? marketing?? > The earliest use of the term as we use it today was an ad in Datamation announcing the (Varian) Data 520i in April, 1968. Before that the class was called "small computers", ie. the PDP-8 "Small Computer Handbook". Fall JCC, December 1968 had several papers using the term "mini-computer" or "minicomputer". Spring 1970 JCC is the first time DEC uses the term with the annoucement of the PDP-11 and the paper "A new architecture for mini-computers -- the DEC PDP-11" From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Aug 18 11:43:22 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 09:43:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Origin of the term minicomputer (was Re: PDP-1 as minicomputer [was RE: OT - sort of]) In-Reply-To: <4C6C097E.8060908@bitsavers.org> References: <CC28F43ED4708D489ABCF68D06D7F556040A5CC9EA@505DENALI.corp.vnw.com> <E1OlSjD-0001Qr-QC@shell.xmission.com> <AANLkTi=RENp1PERbsgCgZg4nkHWqPOVKpaqmROydrTqR@mail.gmail.com> <20100817193547.I45518@shell.lmi.net> <4C6C097E.8060908@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <20100818093527.M65618@shell.lmi.net> > >> But it all depends on how you define "minicomputer" as to what > >> specifically falls in the category. > > Who originally created the term? marketing?? On Wed, 18 Aug 2010, Al Kossow wrote: > The earliest use of the term as we use it today was an ad in > Datamation announcing the (Varian) Data 520i in April, 1968. Therefore, the (Varian) Data 520i was the "first" minicomputer, although there were other computers around that had not been "minicomputers", but BECAME "minicomputers" when the term became popular. > Before that the class was called "small computers", > ie. the PDP-8 "Small Computer Handbook". > Fall JCC, December 1968 had several papers using the term > "mini-computer" or "minicomputer". > Spring 1970 JCC is the first time DEC uses the term with the > annoucement of the PDP-11 and the paper "A new architecture > for mini-computers -- the DEC PDP-11" Therefore, DEC acknowledged the existence of "mini-computers" prior to the PDP-11 providing a "new architecture" for them. Thank you for looking up the history of the term! -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cclist at sydex.com Wed Aug 18 12:31:08 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 10:31:08 -0700 Subject: Origin of the term minicomputer (was Re: PDP-1 as minicomputer [was RE: OT - sort of]) In-Reply-To: <4C6C097E.8060908@bitsavers.org> References: <CC28F43ED4708D489ABCF68D06D7F556040A5CC9EA@505DENALI.corp.vnw.com>, <20100817193547.I45518@shell.lmi.net>, <4C6C097E.8060908@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4C6BB66C.19198.36EDC4@cclist.sydex.com> On 18 Aug 2010 at 9:25, Al Kossow wrote: > The earliest use of the term as we use it today was an ad in > Datamation announcing the (Varian) Data 520i in April, 1968. That would, etymologically speaking, put the term more in the American "miniskirt" (1966) camp that came over with the Mod subculture and the Beatles, than the BMC/Morris "Mini (1959) one. I'd suspected the auto usage was more exclusively British. Could we say that the minicomputer owes its origins to Carnaby Street? --Chuck From dkelvey at hotmail.com Wed Aug 18 12:57:48 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 10:57:48 -0700 Subject: PDP-1 as minicomputer [was RE: OT - sort of] In-Reply-To: <AANLkTin_4puRkfd7AFZVyWuvd+WW6ccRcz+HFH8CHLms@mail.gmail.com> References: <AANLkTi=RENp1PERbsgCgZg4nkHWqPOVKpaqmROydrTqR@mail.gmail.com>, <E1OlTGe-0002jf-T5@shell.xmission.com>, <AANLkTimALAWzmEw2FMkBinMbQPFcsif35EKX0+AcPO08@mail.gmail.com>, <4C6AA1ED.23394.1788E21@cclist.sydex.com>, <AANLkTi=L4hDaWSFPyO6k4RKjogB23j153gaDOSGyJyk1@mail.gmail.com>, <SNT129-W46023395357A7CC046E8AA39C0@phx.gbl>, <AANLkTim89Zubr0o3M_xpbk01fxpZCG1BRfmn9Tv7RbNA@mail.gmail.com>, <SNT129-W63C6C5EE30BDAF0A97D1CAA39D0@phx.gbl>, <AANLkTin_4puRkfd7AFZVyWuvd+WW6ccRcz+HFH8CHLms@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <SNT129-W58003E2284518D84C90150A39D0@phx.gbl> > From: wdonzelli at gmail.com > > > Looking at newer post, it seems like these were 43xx or something like that. > > I recall we had a machine the wasn't called a mini and that number ( as > > I recall ) was a 3081. It was quite big. > > OK a little confusion here. > > The 3081 was indeed the water cooled machine. They generally had a > 4361 as the service processor. The 4361 was one of these > low-maintenance machines - air cooled, no special power, very > reliable. > > -- > Will Hi Will It could be I'm just suffering from BrainFade. I still recall one of the techs pulling the covers off the sides and noting that it was unusual for this series of machines to be water cooled. I recall seeing the plates with hoses and gaskets. Over the years, it could have been the 3081 but I knew that was water cooled. It has been a long time and it wasn't my main area. Dwight From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Aug 18 13:11:02 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 14:11:02 -0400 Subject: PDP-1 as minicomputer [was RE: OT - sort of] In-Reply-To: <SNT129-W58003E2284518D84C90150A39D0@phx.gbl> References: <AANLkTi=RENp1PERbsgCgZg4nkHWqPOVKpaqmROydrTqR@mail.gmail.com> <E1OlTGe-0002jf-T5@shell.xmission.com> <AANLkTimALAWzmEw2FMkBinMbQPFcsif35EKX0+AcPO08@mail.gmail.com> <4C6AA1ED.23394.1788E21@cclist.sydex.com> <AANLkTi=L4hDaWSFPyO6k4RKjogB23j153gaDOSGyJyk1@mail.gmail.com> <SNT129-W46023395357A7CC046E8AA39C0@phx.gbl> <AANLkTim89Zubr0o3M_xpbk01fxpZCG1BRfmn9Tv7RbNA@mail.gmail.com> <SNT129-W63C6C5EE30BDAF0A97D1CAA39D0@phx.gbl> <AANLkTin_4puRkfd7AFZVyWuvd+WW6ccRcz+HFH8CHLms@mail.gmail.com> <SNT129-W58003E2284518D84C90150A39D0@phx.gbl> Message-ID: <AANLkTi=BGJtF=J3b_7pAk9mQiMiGK9pfk8MUH0Bcrrnb@mail.gmail.com> > ?I recall seeing the plates with hoses and gaskets. Over the years, it > could have been the 3081 but I knew that was water cooled. It has > been a long time and it wasn't my main area. Yes, definitely the 3081. Plumbing galore. Here is a picture of a very similar 3084: http://www.compumagic.com/shop/16MbMainFrame.html -- Will From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Aug 18 13:48:52 2010 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 13:48:52 -0500 Subject: Origin of the term minicomputer (was Re: PDP-1 as minicomputer [wasRE: OT - sort of]) References: <CC28F43ED4708D489ABCF68D06D7F556040A5CC9EA@505DENALI.corp.vnw.com> <E1OlSjD-0001Qr-QC@shell.xmission.com> <AANLkTi=RENp1PERbsgCgZg4nkHWqPOVKpaqmROydrTqR@mail.gmail.com><20100817193547.I45518@shell.lmi.net> <4C6C097E.8060908@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <120D94F519844B248700E121579A6903@osa.local> >>> But it all depends on how you define "minicomputer" as to what >>> specifically falls in the category. >> >> Who originally created the term? marketing?? Dunno if it's correct, but I was always taught in compsci classes at UMR that the definition of micro/mini/mainframe was technical and precise and that any misuse of the categorization was an attempt by marketing people to make their system look more attractive, or users who didn't understand the terminology. I suspect the teacher was being a bit too precise. Anyways, their definition was that a micro was a computer on a single chip, a mini was a computer on multiple chips or boads, and that a mainframe was "something larger", with multiple chassis making up the cpu itself. I always thought that was a fair description, but of course I can already find (what I feel are) some exceptions to it :) Jay From thomas.gardner at sbcglobal.net Wed Aug 18 13:46:55 2010 From: thomas.gardner at sbcglobal.net (Tom Gardner) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 11:46:55 -0700 Subject: Origin of the term minicomputer (was Re: PDP-1 as ... In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1282150803.24927.cctalk@classiccmp.org> References: <mailman.1.1282150803.24927.cctalk@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <B496D9C87C8746C6A8A1830119C4ACFD@tegp4> > Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 09:25:34 -0700 > From: Al Kossow <aek at bitsavers.org> > Subject: Origin of the term minicomputer (was Re: PDP-1 as > minicomputer [was RE: OT - sort of]) > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > Message-ID: <4C6C097E.8060908 at bitsavers.org> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > > > >> But it all depends on how you define "minicomputer" as to what > >> specifically falls in the category. > > > > Who originally created the term? marketing?? > > > > The earliest use of the term as we use it today was an ad in > Datamation announcing the (Varian) Data 520i in April, 1968. > <snip> Apparently as early as May 1987 the term minicomputer was used in the WHITE HOUSE executive offices and quoted in several newspapers, along the lines, "Without a minicomputer one really can't tell ..." Given the lack of technical expertise in Washington, this suggests a much earlier origin of the word. Tom From evan at snarc.net Wed Aug 18 13:57:59 2010 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 14:57:59 -0400 Subject: Origin of the term minicomputer (was Re: PDP-1 as ... In-Reply-To: <B496D9C87C8746C6A8A1830119C4ACFD@tegp4> References: <mailman.1.1282150803.24927.cctalk@classiccmp.org> <B496D9C87C8746C6A8A1830119C4ACFD@tegp4> Message-ID: <4C6C2D37.4080704@snarc.net> > Apparently as early as May 1987 the term minicomputer was used in the WHITE HOUSE executive offices and quoted in several newspapers, along the lines, "Without a minicomputer one really can't tell ..." > > Given the lack of technical expertise in Washington, this suggests a much earlier origin of the word. I searched on www.newspaperarchive.com a few minutes ago and saw that same article, along with a couple of others from 1967. But in most cases it's written as "mini-computer". That hyphen may make a difference. It could be newspaper editors simply deciding to hyphenate a then-unfamiliar word, or, it could be that whoever said the original quote meant it as, "Without a miniature computer," while having zero knowledge that something technically called a "minicomputer" was being born. From doc at vaxen.net Wed Aug 18 14:33:49 2010 From: doc at vaxen.net (Doc Shipley) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 14:33:49 -0500 Subject: BOUNTY: HP/UX 11i driver development Message-ID: <4C6C359D.7070106@vaxen.net> This is a bit off topic, I guess, and a repeat, but ClassicCmp is still probably the best place to ask. My company runs a bunch of HP83000 mainframes (F330 models) in product testing. We're tied to Agilent SmarTest v5.x-6.03 running on HP/UX v10.20 for test vectors. SmarTest interfaces with the test frame via an Agilent-branded fiber optic PCI adapter. The card is marked E2777B, p/n A3850-0583. It's a buffered serial adapter on a PCI bridge and that's all we know about it. SmarTest will run on HP/UX 11i, but the interface drivers will not load. We don't have source to the drivers in question, the card itself is, as far as we can discover, entirely undocumented, and neither HP nor Agilent has any interest in maintenance or further development. My company will pay a fair boatload of cash for an 11i-compatible driver. If you're interested and have the background & skills to tackle this, contact me off-list. Doc Shipley From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Aug 18 14:46:48 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 15:46:48 -0400 Subject: BOUNTY: HP/UX 11i driver development In-Reply-To: <4C6C359D.7070106@vaxen.net> References: <4C6C359D.7070106@vaxen.net> Message-ID: <4C6C38A8.6000207@neurotica.com> On 8/18/10 3:33 PM, Doc Shipley wrote: > This is a bit off topic, I guess, and a repeat, but ClassicCmp is still > probably the best place to ask. > > My company runs a bunch of HP83000 mainframes (F330 models) in product > testing. We're tied to Agilent SmarTest v5.x-6.03 running on HP/UX > v10.20 for test vectors. > > SmarTest interfaces with the test frame via an Agilent-branded fiber > optic PCI adapter. The card is marked E2777B, p/n A3850-0583. It's a > buffered serial adapter on a PCI bridge and that's all we know about it. > > SmarTest will run on HP/UX 11i, but the interface drivers will not > load. We don't have source to the drivers in question, the card itself > is, as far as we can discover, entirely undocumented, and neither HP nor > Agilent has any interest in maintenance or further development. > > My company will pay a fair boatload of cash for an 11i-compatible > driver. If you're interested and have the background & skills to tackle > this, contact me off-list. I looked into this at length when you mentioned it about a year ago, and I concluded that you're basically screwed. :-( Your only option, as far as I can see, is to try to reverse-engineer that drivers and fix whatever's preventing it from loading under 11i. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Aug 18 14:50:25 2010 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 12:50:25 -0700 Subject: Origin of the term minicomputer (was Re: PDP-1 as ... In-Reply-To: <4C6C2D37.4080704@snarc.net> References: <mailman.1.1282150803.24927.cctalk@classiccmp.org> <B496D9C87C8746C6A8A1830119C4ACFD@tegp4> <4C6C2D37.4080704@snarc.net> Message-ID: <4C6C3981.5090003@bitsavers.org> On 8/18/10 11:57 AM, Evan Koblentz wrote: > > It > could be newspaper editors simply deciding to hyphenate a > then-unfamiliar word, or, it could be that whoever said the original > quote meant it as, "Without a miniature computer," while having zero > knowledge that something technically called a "minicomputer" was being > born. > > I think this was the case. There are other examples of "mini-computer" being used where they meant "miniature computer" earlier than the example I gave, which was why I stated the Varian ad being the first occurrence I was able to find of the use of the word referring to a machine which we would consider to be a minicomputer. This, and the origin of the word "Software" are both poorly documented. From doc at vaxen.net Wed Aug 18 14:59:17 2010 From: doc at vaxen.net (Doc Shipley) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 14:59:17 -0500 Subject: BOUNTY: HP/UX 11i driver development In-Reply-To: <4C6C38A8.6000207@neurotica.com> References: <4C6C359D.7070106@vaxen.net> <4C6C38A8.6000207@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4C6C3B95.3070204@vaxen.net> On 8/18/10 2:46 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 8/18/10 3:33 PM, Doc Shipley wrote: >> This is a bit off topic, I guess, and a repeat, but ClassicCmp is still >> probably the best place to ask. >> >> My company runs a bunch of HP83000 mainframes (F330 models) in product >> testing. We're tied to Agilent SmarTest v5.x-6.03 running on HP/UX >> v10.20 for test vectors. >> >> SmarTest interfaces with the test frame via an Agilent-branded fiber >> optic PCI adapter. The card is marked E2777B, p/n A3850-0583. It's a >> buffered serial adapter on a PCI bridge and that's all we know about it. >> >> SmarTest will run on HP/UX 11i, but the interface drivers will not >> load. We don't have source to the drivers in question, the card itself >> is, as far as we can discover, entirely undocumented, and neither HP nor >> Agilent has any interest in maintenance or further development. >> >> My company will pay a fair boatload of cash for an 11i-compatible >> driver. If you're interested and have the background& skills to tackle >> this, contact me off-list. > > I looked into this at length when you mentioned it about a year ago, > and I concluded that you're basically screwed. :-( > > Your only option, as far as I can see, is to try to reverse-engineer > that drivers and fix whatever's preventing it from loading under 11i. That's the general idea. Jonathan's the only one here that possibly could do that, and he's already working 70-hour weeks.... One option we've discussed and that would be perfectly acceptable is ditching the Agilent adapter altogether. The comms protocol for the HP83000 is well-documented, and the transport looks to be standard 25Mhz multi-mode FC. If we could make some other FC adapter look right to the software, that would be even better than a new driver for an aging adapter that costs $5k on eBay.... Doc From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Aug 18 15:09:56 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 16:09:56 -0400 Subject: BOUNTY: HP/UX 11i driver development In-Reply-To: <4C6C3B95.3070204@vaxen.net> References: <4C6C359D.7070106@vaxen.net> <4C6C38A8.6000207@neurotica.com> <4C6C3B95.3070204@vaxen.net> Message-ID: <4C6C3E14.1070704@neurotica.com> On 8/18/10 3:59 PM, Doc Shipley wrote: >>> This is a bit off topic, I guess, and a repeat, but ClassicCmp is still >>> probably the best place to ask. >>> >>> My company runs a bunch of HP83000 mainframes (F330 models) in >>> product >>> testing. We're tied to Agilent SmarTest v5.x-6.03 running on HP/UX >>> v10.20 for test vectors. >>> >>> SmarTest interfaces with the test frame via an Agilent-branded fiber >>> optic PCI adapter. The card is marked E2777B, p/n A3850-0583. It's a >>> buffered serial adapter on a PCI bridge and that's all we know about it. >>> >>> SmarTest will run on HP/UX 11i, but the interface drivers will not >>> load. We don't have source to the drivers in question, the card itself >>> is, as far as we can discover, entirely undocumented, and neither HP nor >>> Agilent has any interest in maintenance or further development. >>> >>> My company will pay a fair boatload of cash for an 11i-compatible >>> driver. If you're interested and have the background& skills to tackle >>> this, contact me off-list. >> >> I looked into this at length when you mentioned it about a year ago, >> and I concluded that you're basically screwed. :-( >> >> Your only option, as far as I can see, is to try to reverse-engineer >> that drivers and fix whatever's preventing it from loading under 11i. > > That's the general idea. Jonathan's the only one here that possibly > could do that, and he's already working 70-hour weeks.... He's as sharp as they come, but I assure you he's most definitely not the only person on earth who is capable of single-stepping in assembler to reverse engineer a chunk of code. ;) > One option we've discussed and that would be perfectly acceptable is > ditching the Agilent adapter altogether. The comms protocol for the > HP83000 is well-documented, and the transport looks to be standard 25Mhz > multi-mode FC. If we could make some other FC adapter look right to the > software, that would be even better than a new driver for an aging > adapter that costs $5k on eBay.... "Standard 25MHz multi-mode FC"? There are precious few standard fiber communications modulation methods and "wire"-level protocols, and if they designed a proprietary one to artificially keep costs high and lock out competitors (which is the only real reason why they'd have done it) then there's almost no chance of them having used any of the common ones. Unless of course by "FC" you meant FibreChannel, which means it could speak the standard FC protocol but implement a proprietary subcommand set within the FC-delivered SCSI protocol. In that case, it could likely be reverse-engineered with a FibreChannel protocol analyzer. I suspect, however, that you know how much those cost. What major chips are on the board? Anything standard, or all proprietary? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From legalize at xmission.com Wed Aug 18 15:14:01 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 14:14:01 -0600 Subject: PDP-1 as minicomputer [was RE: OT - sort of] In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 18 Aug 2010 14:11:02 -0400. <AANLkTi=BGJtF=J3b_7pAk9mQiMiGK9pfk8MUH0Bcrrnb@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <E1Olp1N-0004Is-GU@shell.xmission.com> In article <AANLkTi=BGJtF=J3b_7pAk9mQiMiGK9pfk8MUH0Bcrrnb at mail.gmail.com>, William Donzelli <wdonzelli at gmail.com> writes: > Here is a picture of a very similar 3084: > > http://www.compumagic.com/shop/16MbMainFrame.html Helium filled?!?!? Must have leaked like crazy. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com/the-direct3d-graphics-pipeline/> Legalize Adulthood! <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com> From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Aug 18 15:37:44 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 16:37:44 -0400 Subject: PDP-1 as minicomputer [was RE: OT - sort of] In-Reply-To: <E1Olp1N-0004Is-GU@shell.xmission.com> References: <AANLkTi=BGJtF=J3b_7pAk9mQiMiGK9pfk8MUH0Bcrrnb@mail.gmail.com> <E1Olp1N-0004Is-GU@shell.xmission.com> Message-ID: <AANLkTi=bc3SaXcoRVC-_BcQA_LqC723xbMxHVmeJsj6V@mail.gmail.com> > Helium filled?!?!? ?Must have leaked like crazy. The Helium was really just a small player in the whole technology of the TCM. By far, most of the heat was conducted away through the ceramic substrate and the metal pistons to the water cooled cold plate. Also, I do not know if the Helium was pressurized at all, so leakage may have been pretty slow. It is too bad so few of these IBM water machines are still around. I know of only maybe a half dozen. I would still like to get one. -- Will From RichA at vulcan.com Wed Aug 18 16:23:30 2010 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 14:23:30 -0700 Subject: PDP-1 as minicomputer [was RE: OT - sort of] In-Reply-To: <AANLkTim_tB_D0+u+sNwvr6ats+QZD4yb5QXqCE2vJEE_@mail.gmail.com> References: <AANLkTi=RENp1PERbsgCgZg4nkHWqPOVKpaqmROydrTqR@mail.gmail.com> <E1OlTGe-0002jf-T5@shell.xmission.com> <CC28F43ED4708D489ABCF68D06D7F556040A5CC9EE@505DENALI.corp.vnw.com> <AANLkTim_tB_D0+u+sNwvr6ats+QZD4yb5QXqCE2vJEE_@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <CC28F43ED4708D489ABCF68D06D7F556040A5CC9F3@505DENALI.corp.vnw.com> From: William Donzelli Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2010 6:40 PM >> The Series/1 was the first entry by IBM into the minicomputer market as >> such. > 1620? 1130? 1800? S/3? S/32? S/34? None of those were marketed as a minicomputer by IBM. The Series/1 was. Thus my "as such". Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.PDPplanet.org/ http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Aug 18 16:29:38 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 17:29:38 -0400 Subject: PDP-1 as minicomputer [was RE: OT - sort of] In-Reply-To: <CC28F43ED4708D489ABCF68D06D7F556040A5CC9F3@505DENALI.corp.vnw.com> References: <AANLkTi=RENp1PERbsgCgZg4nkHWqPOVKpaqmROydrTqR@mail.gmail.com> <E1OlTGe-0002jf-T5@shell.xmission.com> <CC28F43ED4708D489ABCF68D06D7F556040A5CC9EE@505DENALI.corp.vnw.com> <AANLkTim_tB_D0+u+sNwvr6ats+QZD4yb5QXqCE2vJEE_@mail.gmail.com> <CC28F43ED4708D489ABCF68D06D7F556040A5CC9F3@505DENALI.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <AANLkTinyQMJrnfQcdainOMDUpxvgb15LXw6m8Jv5BGD2@mail.gmail.com> > None of those were marketed as a minicomputer by IBM. ?The Series/1 was. > Thus my "as such". IBM could have called them squigglethwaps, but they are still pretty much minicomputers. -- Will From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Aug 18 16:35:34 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 17:35:34 -0400 Subject: PDP-1 as minicomputer [was RE: OT - sort of] In-Reply-To: <AANLkTinyQMJrnfQcdainOMDUpxvgb15LXw6m8Jv5BGD2@mail.gmail.com> References: <AANLkTi=RENp1PERbsgCgZg4nkHWqPOVKpaqmROydrTqR@mail.gmail.com> <E1OlTGe-0002jf-T5@shell.xmission.com> <CC28F43ED4708D489ABCF68D06D7F556040A5CC9EE@505DENALI.corp.vnw.com> <AANLkTim_tB_D0+u+sNwvr6ats+QZD4yb5QXqCE2vJEE_@mail.gmail.com> <CC28F43ED4708D489ABCF68D06D7F556040A5CC9F3@505DENALI.corp.vnw.com> <AANLkTinyQMJrnfQcdainOMDUpxvgb15LXw6m8Jv5BGD2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4C6C5226.10202@neurotica.com> On 8/18/10 5:29 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >> None of those were marketed as a minicomputer by IBM. The Series/1 was. >> Thus my "as such". > > IBM could have called them squigglethwaps, but they are still pretty > much minicomputers. I'd pay real money to see the corporate grey flannel button-down IBM of that era print or utter that word in pretty much any forum. :) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From RichA at vulcan.com Wed Aug 18 16:48:04 2010 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 14:48:04 -0700 Subject: OT - sort of In-Reply-To: <4C6B48CC.1030502@brouhaha.com> References: <4C6973C3.30102@tx.rr.com> from "Charlie Carothers" at Aug 16, 10 12:22:11 pm <m1OlSs6-000J3uC@p850ug1> <CC28F43ED4708D489ABCF68D06D7F556040A5CC9EF@505DENALI.corp.vnw.com> <4C6B48CC.1030502@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <CC28F43ED4708D489ABCF68D06D7F556040A5CC9F4@505DENALI.corp.vnw.com> From: Eric Smith Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2010 7:43 PM > Rich Alderson wrote: >> PDP-14: build-it-yourself [snip] >> PDP-16: build-it-yourself [snip] Thanks for expanding. As I noted, I was writing from memory, and I never did more than a cursory glance at either of those products. >> The follow models of the PDP-10 were christened DECsystem-10 and >> DECSYSTEM-20 > Those were the system names; the processor was still called a PDP-10, > and the specific processor models were known by their option names, > KA10, KI10, KL10, and KS10. You know that, and I know that, but most people look at the external label and go from there. Someone who never heard of a PDP-1 would be unlikely to think "PDP-10" when confronted with a nameplate that read "decsystem 10" or "DECSYSTEM 20". Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.PDPplanet.org/ http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From RichA at vulcan.com Wed Aug 18 16:58:10 2010 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 14:58:10 -0700 Subject: Origin of the term minicomputer (was Re: PDP-1 as minicomputer [was RE: OT - sort of]) In-Reply-To: <4C6BB66C.19198.36EDC4@cclist.sydex.com> References: <CC28F43ED4708D489ABCF68D06D7F556040A5CC9EA@505DENALI.corp.vnw.com>, <20100817193547.I45518@shell.lmi.net>, <4C6C097E.8060908@bitsavers.org> <4C6BB66C.19198.36EDC4@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <CC28F43ED4708D489ABCF68D06D7F556040A5CC9F5@505DENALI.corp.vnw.com> From: Chuck Guzis Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 2010 10:31 AM > On 18 Aug 2010 at 9:25, Al Kossow wrote: >> The earliest use of the term as we use it today was an ad in >> Datamation announcing the (Varian) Data 520i in April, 1968. > That would, etymologically speaking, put the term more in the > American "miniskirt" (1966) camp that came over with the Mod > subculture and the Beatles, than the BMC/Morris "Mini (1959) one. > I'd suspected the auto usage was more exclusively British. The miniskirt was introduced under that name by Mary Quant in 1965. She explicitly stated that the name was influenced by the Mini. > Could we say that the minicomputer owes its origins to Carnaby > Street? By 1968 when the term was apparently used in advertising for the first time (thanks, Al!), far too many things in American marketing had been labeled "mini", so yeah, probably so. Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.PDPplanet.org/ http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Aug 18 17:35:50 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 15:35:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: PDP-1 as squigglethwap [was RE: OT - sort of] In-Reply-To: <AANLkTinyQMJrnfQcdainOMDUpxvgb15LXw6m8Jv5BGD2@mail.gmail.com> References: <AANLkTi=RENp1PERbsgCgZg4nkHWqPOVKpaqmROydrTqR@mail.gmail.com> <E1OlTGe-0002jf-T5@shell.xmission.com> <CC28F43ED4708D489ABCF68D06D7F556040A5CC9EE@505DENALI.corp.vnw.com> <AANLkTim_tB_D0+u+sNwvr6ats+QZD4yb5QXqCE2vJEE_@mail.gmail.com> <CC28F43ED4708D489ABCF68D06D7F556040A5CC9F3@505DENALI.corp.vnw.com> <AANLkTinyQMJrnfQcdainOMDUpxvgb15LXw6m8Jv5BGD2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20100818152931.U78157@shell.lmi.net> > > None of those were marketed as a minicomputer by IBM. ?The Series/1 was. > > Thus my "as such". On Wed, 18 Aug 2010, William Donzelli wrote: > IBM could have called them squigglethwaps, but they are still pretty > much minicomputers. Are ALL minicomputers squigglethwaps, or just those from IBM? -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Aug 18 17:40:05 2010 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 18:40:05 -0400 Subject: PDP-1 as minicomputer [was RE: OT - sort of] In-Reply-To: <4C6C5226.10202@neurotica.com> References: <AANLkTi=RENp1PERbsgCgZg4nkHWqPOVKpaqmROydrTqR@mail.gmail.com> <E1OlTGe-0002jf-T5@shell.xmission.com> <CC28F43ED4708D489ABCF68D06D7F556040A5CC9EE@505DENALI.corp.vnw.com> <AANLkTim_tB_D0+u+sNwvr6ats+QZD4yb5QXqCE2vJEE_@mail.gmail.com> <CC28F43ED4708D489ABCF68D06D7F556040A5CC9F3@505DENALI.corp.vnw.com> <AANLkTinyQMJrnfQcdainOMDUpxvgb15LXw6m8Jv5BGD2@mail.gmail.com> <4C6C5226.10202@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4C6C6145.8030800@gmail.com> Dave McGuire wrote: >>> None of those were marketed as a minicomputer by IBM. The Series/1 was. >>> Thus my "as such". >> >> IBM could have called them squigglethwaps, but they are still pretty >> much minicomputers. > > I'd pay real money to see the corporate grey flannel button-down IBM > of that era print or utter that word in pretty much any forum. :) How about I get my dad to put his suit, badge and pocket protector on and say it? Peace... Sridhar From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Aug 18 17:47:10 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 18:47:10 -0400 Subject: PDP-1 as minicomputer [was RE: OT - sort of] In-Reply-To: <4C6C6145.8030800@gmail.com> References: <AANLkTi=RENp1PERbsgCgZg4nkHWqPOVKpaqmROydrTqR@mail.gmail.com> <E1OlTGe-0002jf-T5@shell.xmission.com> <CC28F43ED4708D489ABCF68D06D7F556040A5CC9EE@505DENALI.corp.vnw.com> <AANLkTim_tB_D0+u+sNwvr6ats+QZD4yb5QXqCE2vJEE_@mail.gmail.com> <CC28F43ED4708D489ABCF68D06D7F556040A5CC9F3@505DENALI.corp.vnw.com> <AANLkTinyQMJrnfQcdainOMDUpxvgb15LXw6m8Jv5BGD2@mail.gmail.com> <4C6C5226.10202@neurotica.com> <4C6C6145.8030800@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4C6C62EE.4090308@neurotica.com> On 8/18/10 6:40 PM, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >>>> None of those were marketed as a minicomputer by IBM. The Series/1 >>>> was. >>>> Thus my "as such". >>> >>> IBM could have called them squigglethwaps, but they are still pretty >>> much minicomputers. >> >> I'd pay real money to see the corporate grey flannel button-down IBM >> of that era print or utter that word in pretty much any forum. :) > > How about I get my dad to put his suit, badge and pocket protector on > and say it? YES!! DO IT!! 8-) Your dad rocks. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cclist at sydex.com Wed Aug 18 17:49:06 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 15:49:06 -0700 Subject: Origin of the term minicomputer (was Re: PDP-1 as minicomputer [was RE: OT - sort of]) In-Reply-To: <CC28F43ED4708D489ABCF68D06D7F556040A5CC9F5@505DENALI.corp.vnw.com> References: <CC28F43ED4708D489ABCF68D06D7F556040A5CC9EA@505DENALI.corp.vnw.com>, <4C6BB66C.19198.36EDC4@cclist.sydex.com>, <CC28F43ED4708D489ABCF68D06D7F556040A5CC9F5@505DENALI.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <4C6C00F2.6043.15A0A7C@cclist.sydex.com> On 18 Aug 2010 at 14:58, Rich Alderson wrote: > The miniskirt was introduced under that name by Mary Quant in 1965. > She explicitly stated that the name was influenced by the Mini. I stumbled upon an old photograph showing a model wearing a miniskirt with a BMC Mini. Egad, that was a homely car! So, were there any micro-minicomputers? Midicomputers? And more to the point, which was more exciting? The miniskirt or the minicomputer? --Chuck From halarewich at gmail.com Wed Aug 18 18:04:31 2010 From: halarewich at gmail.com (Chris Halarewich) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 16:04:31 -0700 Subject: Octane video cable... In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.2.00.1008180806550.12113@grumble.deltasoft.com> References: <E1Oljsi-0004Zr-2M@shell.xmission.com> <alpine.LFD.2.00.1008180806550.12113@grumble.deltasoft.com> Message-ID: <AANLkTimjG5E5pYmQPn+v23F4CvDXAgwK0Q21g8bD+oOO@mail.gmail.com> here is a couple links that might work *HD15 Male to 13W3 Male(Sun) Cable - 6FT = $11.24* http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=102&cp_id=10203&cs_id=1020301&p_id=89&seq=1&format=2 *Sun 13W3-M to HD15-F (VGA) Video Port Adapter =$6.82* * http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=104&cp_id=10401&cs_id=1040110&p_id=71&seq=1&format=2 * *Sun 13W3-F to HD15-M (VGA) Video Port Adapter = 6.82* http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=104&cp_id=10401&cs_id=1040110&p_id=70&seq=1&format=2 On 8/18/10, Gene Buckle <geneb at deltasoft.com> wrote: > > On Wed, 18 Aug 2010, Richard wrote: > > >> In article <alpine.LFD.2.00.1008180655060.9992 at grumble.deltasoft.com>, >> Gene Buckle <geneb at deltasoft.com> writes: >> >> Does anyone here have a video cable suitable for an Octane they'd like to >>> part with? I got a complete system a few weeks ago, but no video cable. >>> :( >>> >> >> IIRC, these are fairly common as they were used on many SGI and Sun >> workstations. Its called a 13W3 cable. >> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/13W3> >> >> It's my understanding that the Sun 13W3 cable isn't wired the same as the > SGI version. > > If someone here doesn't toss you one gratis, they should be fairly >> easy and inexpensive to purchase. >> >> So far I've only found a 13W3->VGA adapter for $24. > > > g. > > -- > Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 > http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. > http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project > > ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment > A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. > http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! > From shumaker at att.net Wed Aug 18 18:18:07 2010 From: shumaker at att.net (steve shumaker) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 19:18:07 -0400 Subject: PDP-1 as minicomputer [was RE: OT - sort of] In-Reply-To: <AANLkTi=bc3SaXcoRVC-_BcQA_LqC723xbMxHVmeJsj6V@mail.gmail.com> References: <AANLkTi=BGJtF=J3b_7pAk9mQiMiGK9pfk8MUH0Bcrrnb@mail.gmail.com> <E1Olp1N-0004Is-GU@shell.xmission.com> <AANLkTi=bc3SaXcoRVC-_BcQA_LqC723xbMxHVmeJsj6V@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4C6C6A2F.1080001@att.net> what was the basic purpose of the helium? On 8/18/2010 4:37 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >> Helium filled?!?!? Must have leaked like crazy. >> > The Helium was really just a small player in the whole technology of > the TCM. By far, most of the heat was conducted away through the > ceramic substrate and the metal pistons to the water cooled cold > plate. > > Also, I do not know if the Helium was pressurized at all, so leakage > may have been pretty slow. > > It is too bad so few of these IBM water machines are still around. I > know of only maybe a half dozen. I would still like to get one. > > -- > Will > > From shumaker at att.net Wed Aug 18 18:21:53 2010 From: shumaker at att.net (steve shumaker) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 19:21:53 -0400 Subject: Origin of the term minicomputer (was Re: PDP-1 as minicomputer [was RE: OT - sort of]) In-Reply-To: <4C6C00F2.6043.15A0A7C@cclist.sydex.com> References: <CC28F43ED4708D489ABCF68D06D7F556040A5CC9EA@505DENALI.corp.vnw.com>, <4C6BB66C.19198.36EDC4@cclist.sydex.com>, <CC28F43ED4708D489ABCF68D06D7F556040A5CC9F5@505DENALI.corp.vnw.com> <4C6C00F2.6043.15A0A7C@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4C6C6B11.2070100@att.net> you weren't supposed to look at the car! On 8/18/2010 6:49 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 18 Aug 2010 at 14:58, Rich Alderson wrote: > > >> The miniskirt was introduced under that name by Mary Quant in 1965. >> She explicitly stated that the name was influenced by the Mini. >> > I stumbled upon an old photograph showing a model wearing a miniskirt > with a BMC Mini. Egad, that was a homely car! > > So, were there any micro-minicomputers? Midicomputers? And more to > the point, which was more exciting? The miniskirt or the > minicomputer? > > --Chuck > > > From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Aug 18 18:27:37 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 19:27:37 -0400 Subject: PDP-1 as minicomputer [was RE: OT - sort of] In-Reply-To: <4C6C6A2F.1080001@att.net> References: <AANLkTi=BGJtF=J3b_7pAk9mQiMiGK9pfk8MUH0Bcrrnb@mail.gmail.com> <E1Olp1N-0004Is-GU@shell.xmission.com> <AANLkTi=bc3SaXcoRVC-_BcQA_LqC723xbMxHVmeJsj6V@mail.gmail.com> <4C6C6A2F.1080001@att.net> Message-ID: <AANLkTi=-z_Td8KhQm9MBcvDK2oj5yYtSfdTTJ77Hm+YM@mail.gmail.com> > what was the basic purpose of the helium? It is pumped into the modules to fill any air gaps. Helium conducts heat well. -- Will From shumaker at att.net Wed Aug 18 18:40:45 2010 From: shumaker at att.net (steve shumaker) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 19:40:45 -0400 Subject: PDP-1 as minicomputer [was RE: OT - sort of] In-Reply-To: <AANLkTi=-z_Td8KhQm9MBcvDK2oj5yYtSfdTTJ77Hm+YM@mail.gmail.com> References: <AANLkTi=BGJtF=J3b_7pAk9mQiMiGK9pfk8MUH0Bcrrnb@mail.gmail.com> <E1Olp1N-0004Is-GU@shell.xmission.com> <AANLkTi=bc3SaXcoRVC-_BcQA_LqC723xbMxHVmeJsj6V@mail.gmail.com> <4C6C6A2F.1080001@att.net> <AANLkTi=-z_Td8KhQm9MBcvDK2oj5yYtSfdTTJ77Hm+YM@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4C6C6F7D.3010904@att.net> was thinking along those lines but wasn't sure what the conductivity was (vice air) tx On 8/18/2010 7:27 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >> what was the basic purpose of the helium? >> > It is pumped into the modules to fill any air gaps. Helium conducts heat well. > > -- > Will > > From classiccmp at vintage-computer.com Wed Aug 18 21:20:04 2010 From: classiccmp at vintage-computer.com (Erik Klein) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 19:20:04 -0700 Subject: Octane video cable... In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.2.00.1008180655060.9992@grumble.deltasoft.com> References: <BLU139-W15D39857668800C95AD9DDC99D0@phx.gbl>, <E1OlbFv-0005FM-IB@shell.xmission.com>, <20100818054150.GA16048@Update.UU.SE> <BLU139-W353633CFF9DD3231665DFDC99D0@phx.gbl> <alpine.LFD.2.00.1008180655060.9992@grumble.deltasoft.com> Message-ID: <041501cb3f45$0ab02380$20106a80$@com> Is this it? http://marketplace.vintage-computer.com/auction_details.php?auction_search=1 &auction_id=107544 -- ----- Erik Klein www.vintage-computer.com www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum - The Vintage Computer Forums marketplace.vintage-computer.com - The Vintage Computer and Gaming Marketplace -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Gene Buckle Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 2010 6:56 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Octane video cable... Does anyone here have a video cable suitable for an Octane they'd like to part with? I got a complete system a few weeks ago, but no video cable. :( tnx! g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Aug 18 21:31:20 2010 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 19:31:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Octane video cable... In-Reply-To: <041501cb3f45$0ab02380$20106a80$@com> References: <BLU139-W15D39857668800C95AD9DDC99D0@phx.gbl>, <E1OlbFv-0005FM-IB@shell.xmission.com>, <20100818054150.GA16048@Update.UU.SE> <BLU139-W353633CFF9DD3231665DFDC99D0@phx.gbl> <alpine.LFD.2.00.1008180655060.9992@grumble.deltasoft.com> <041501cb3f45$0ab02380$20106a80$@com> Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.00.1008181930560.32196@grumble.deltasoft.com> On Wed, 18 Aug 2010, Erik Klein wrote: > Is this it? > > http://marketplace.vintage-computer.com/auction_details.php?auction_search=1 > &auction_id=107544 > > Nope, that's for a Sun. The SGI cable is different. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Aug 18 22:04:22 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 20:04:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: interactive fiction via gopherspace Message-ID: <201008190304.o7J34NcA020328@floodgap.com> gopher://gopher.thurman.org.uk/1/advent/ No explanation or even instructions should be needed. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- A battle avoided cannot be lost. -- Sun Tzu -------------------------------- From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Wed Aug 18 23:27:04 2010 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 21:27:04 -0700 Subject: Mostly OT: Looking for Manual/Schematic for Wavetek 1901C In-Reply-To: <m1OlTMp-000J4CC@p850ug1> References: <m1OlTMp-000J4CC@p850ug1> Message-ID: <4C6CB298.9050703@mail.msu.edu> Tony Duell wrote: >> Snagged a Wavetek 1901C last week. This is a 12" oscilloscope display >> (X/Y+intensity input), I was hoping to use it as a point-plotting/vector >> display for a couple of little computer projects of mine. (Or maybe >> just hooking an Asteroids board up to it... :). It's in pretty good >> shape (has more screen burn than I think I've ever seen in a few spots, >> though.) I fixed a couple of cold solder joints and it's now mostly >> working, except something appears to be going slightly wrong in the Y >> deflection or amplification (it's getting clipped/distorted depending on >> the gain and input intensity). >> >> Anyone have a service manual or schematic for this thing or know good >> sources for such things? > > Often the X and Y channels are very similar, if not identical, for > obvious reasons. I don;t know how it's constructed, but if you can > identify corresponding parts of the X and Y channels, then you might be > able to compare signals between them to track down the faulty part. Good call -- there's a few areas that are obviously identical. The real fun will be taking out the main PCB to work on it, this thing doesn't have the most modular design. > > Does this unit use electrostatic or electromagnetic deflection? I'm not sure -- what are telltale signs of electrostatic vs. electromagnetic? I'm fairly sure at this point that the actual deflection is working OK -- I can use the vertical/horizontal positioning pots to move the waveform anywhere onscreen and there's no distortion as a result. The distortion seems to be related to whatever's coming out of the amplifier (is that the right term in this context?). If I input a sine wave with 1V amplitude to X/Y and set the gain to 1V/Div the display is fine. If I change the gain to .01V/Div the tops of the sinewave get oddly distorted -- past a certain point the top of the displayed oval jumps up as if the Y value is getting forced to some maximum value. It's difficult to describe. I have taken a couple of pictures of an example, they're at: http://yahozna.dyndns.org/scratch/osc/ Since I know your computing setup is not optimized for web-browsing, here's an ASCII diagram (apologies for the crudity) Good: __ / \ | | \__/ Bad: _ | | | | _/ | / | | | \__/ - Josh > > -tony > From bruce at Wild-Hare.com Wed Aug 18 09:46:15 2010 From: bruce at Wild-Hare.com (Bruce) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 08:46:15 -0600 Subject: PDP-1 as minicomputer [was RE: OT - sort of] References: <AANLkTi=7e7EsiL=31Hcgdv3i40voPnsnpomg35oZbL6w@mail.gmail.com><E1OlUeU-0002Bi-HQ@shell.xmission.com><AANLkTi=5hwDMPFjqhobXzRtLja_Q_jDHvC0Fu_+eV-hM@mail.gmail.com> <FF6AB92D97A23A409701CDBF66F03FCD03DC3E6ECE@505fuji> Message-ID: <00fc01cb3ee4$1c0757e0$6801a8c0@linksys> The correct answer is (b) (I do not have a copy of the ad) Bruce ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ian King" <IanK at vulcan.com> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2010 05:04 PM Subject: RE: PDP-1 as minicomputer [was RE: OT - sort of] > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of William Donzelli > Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2010 3:51 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: PDP-1 as minicomputer [was RE: OT - sort of] > > > How about Series/1? > > There is a classic Data General ad that ran when IBM was introducing > the S/1 to "legitimize the minicomputer market". The Data General ad > said "The bastards say, welcome". > > Bruce Ray may be looking for this ad for a scan. > > -- > Will I'm almost certain I've seen that ad, which either means (a) Bruce already has it or (b) I'm older than I realize. -- Ian -------------- next part -------------- Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.851 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3077 - Release Date: 08/17/10 00:35:00 From jws at jwsss.com Wed Aug 18 18:56:03 2010 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 16:56:03 -0700 Subject: PDP-1 MCM Modules In-Reply-To: <4C6C6A2F.1080001@att.net> References: <AANLkTi=BGJtF=J3b_7pAk9mQiMiGK9pfk8MUH0Bcrrnb@mail.gmail.com> <E1Olp1N-0004Is-GU@shell.xmission.com> <AANLkTi=bc3SaXcoRVC-_BcQA_LqC723xbMxHVmeJsj6V@mail.gmail.com> <4C6C6A2F.1080001@att.net> Message-ID: <4C6C7313.1070402@jwsss.com> > what was the basic purpose of the helium? > > On 8/18/2010 4:37 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >>> Helium filled?!?!? Must have leaked like crazy. >> The Helium was really just a small player in the whole technology of >> the TCM. By far, most of the heat was conducted away through the >> ceramic substrate and the metal pistons to the water cooled cold >> plate. This link has a paper by IBM and Honeywell describing MCM's which used the helium in discussion here. All of the other discussions I could find are behind various paywalls (ieee, elsevier, aip, etc.) which I won't pay for. Thnaks to whoever hindawi is for putting it where it is in google, and also accessible. this one is apparantly open for reading http://downloads.hindawi.com/journals/apec/1982/204239.pdf BTW, I googled for this, and it was on the first page, but there are other articles "ibm mcm modules helium" Jim From c.murray.mccullough at gmail.com Wed Aug 18 19:49:53 2010 From: c.murray.mccullough at gmail.com (Murray McCullough) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 20:49:53 -0400 Subject: Origin of the term minicomputer (was Re: PDP-1 as ... Message-ID: <AANLkTin53_ZB9RQ7Q_idpwZXp9hqUo=S5pVNE_paJbUm@mail.gmail.com> It?s my understanding, and I stand to be corrected, that mini, hyphenated or otherwise, simply meant a small computer system that preceded the microcomputer era. Granted this, the term means different-things-to-different-people, the consensus seems to be that the term mini means smaller than a mainframe and matches comparable words from the 60?s, i.e., mini-skirt, et al. As a(n) historian I treat it as a cultural phenomena rather than just a purely technical or technological definition. Whether purists agree is indeed debatable! Murray-- From ama at ugr.es Thu Aug 19 09:19:10 2010 From: ama at ugr.es (Angel Martin Alganza) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 16:19:10 +0200 Subject: PDP-1 movies In-Reply-To: <4C69C2CF.50503@tx.rr.com> References: <4C69C2CF.50503@tx.rr.com> Message-ID: <20100819141910.GA12366@darwin.ugr.es> Hello Charlie, On Mon, Aug 16, 2010 at 05:59:27PM -0500, Charlie Carothers wrote: > I was just wondering if anyone else is able to view the 3 movies near > the bottom of http://pdp-1.computerhistory.org/pdp-1/index.php?f=theme&s=2 No problem here watching any of the movies using Uzbl on Debian GNU/Linux. Regards, ?ngel From dkelvey at hotmail.com Thu Aug 19 09:41:57 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 07:41:57 -0700 Subject: PDP-1 MCM Modules In-Reply-To: <4C6C7313.1070402@jwsss.com> References: <AANLkTi=BGJtF=J3b_7pAk9mQiMiGK9pfk8MUH0Bcrrnb@mail.gmail.com> <E1Olp1N-0004Is-GU@shell.xmission.com> <AANLkTi=bc3SaXcoRVC-_BcQA_LqC723xbMxHVmeJsj6V@mail.gmail.com>, <4C6C6A2F.1080001@att.net>, <4C6C7313.1070402@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <SNT129-W590A09FC0C308C7F6C1AE4A39E0@phx.gbl> > From: jws at jwsss.com > To: > Subject: Re: PDP-1 MCM Modules > > > what was the basic purpose of the helium? > > > > On 8/18/2010 4:37 PM, William Donzelli wrote: > >>> Helium filled?!?!? Must have leaked like crazy. > >> The Helium was really just a small player in the whole technology of > >> the TCM. By far, most of the heat was conducted away through the > >> ceramic substrate and the metal pistons to the water cooled cold > >> plate. > This link has a paper by IBM and Honeywell describing MCM's which > used the helium in discussion here. > > All of the other discussions I could find are behind various paywalls (ieee, > elsevier, aip, etc.) which I won't pay for. Thnaks to whoever hindawi is > for putting it where it is in google, and also accessible. > > this one is apparantly open for reading > > http://downloads.hindawi.com/journals/apec/1982/204239.pdf > > BTW, I googled for this, and it was on the first page, but there are other > articles > > "ibm mcm modules helium" > > Jim Hi Although there is the heat transfer, we used to use helium in our MCM packages when at HaL computers. I was always told that we did it for leak detecting. They had a helium sniffer ( small mass spec ) after sealing the part. Dwight From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Aug 19 09:44:37 2010 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 09:44:37 -0500 Subject: Serial interfaces (was Re: Any former Psion 5 owners out there?) In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikQDmDao1UfuhfPb4rEAqgPwNKA22FxLZyfwse4@mail.gmail.c om> References: <AANLkTik7+jqWhvuQwx9HEPWhCq9Bz8nFmEH-Tb7LUHmH@mail.gmail.com> <m1OclC7-000J4FC@p850ug1> <AANLkTikQDmDao1UfuhfPb4rEAqgPwNKA22FxLZyfwse4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <201008191444.o7JEilpf079991@billY.EZWIND.NET> At 03:59 PM 7/24/2010, Liam Proven wrote: >The next jump will be more interesting: 32-bit OSs basically can't >usefully handle >4GB of RAM, nor can the main ones handle >2GB drives. >Both are becoming common. Sure you meant "terabyte" not "gigabyte". The 2 TB drives are certainly more popular and common because they're getting close to $100. - John From cclist at sydex.com Thu Aug 19 11:43:49 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 09:43:49 -0700 Subject: Origin of the term minicomputer (was Re: PDP-1 as ... In-Reply-To: <AANLkTin53_ZB9RQ7Q_idpwZXp9hqUo=S5pVNE_paJbUm@mail.gmail.com> References: <AANLkTin53_ZB9RQ7Q_idpwZX