From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Oct 1 00:04:13 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2009 22:04:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: "What;s the matter with kids today" (Was: PCjr NMI and 8253 In-Reply-To: <4AC4112D.6090201@brutman.com> References: <4AC2362D.2050200@brutman.com> <20090929215904.GA32396@brevard.conman.org> <4AC291F6.5040705@brutman.com> <20090930055330.GA29752@brevard.conman.org> <4AC3FD9D.4000709@brutman.com> <4AC40054.5040703@brutman.com> <230D3812-79E7-4149-B41D-627DE008E14E@shiresoft.com> <20090930183822.A68140@shell.lmi.net> <4AC4112D.6090201@brutman.com> Message-ID: <20090930205615.F80398@shell.lmi.net> > >> > >> Why do people always seem to want to have elapsed time as a floating > >> point number? > >> > > Because some of the CRAP that they learned in school makes them think that > > truncation (or even rounding) to an int value "isn't the RIGHT answer". On Wed, 30 Sep 2009, Michael B. Brutman wrote: > I think that both of you are making assumptions about my education, > upbringing, etc. that are not true and I'd like you to calm down. Sorry. I was, indeed, assuming that you had been through the school system in the USA, and I blame that system for many problems, including the one of people using floating point when it is inappropriate (almost always). I assumed that your education was similar to ours. I have no ideas about your "upbringing". Even FORTRAN makes the very sad mistake of calling floating point numbers "REAL" numbers. And although I will always have fond feelings for Microsoft "street" BASIC, its use of single precision float as the default variable type reinforces Djikstra's "It is virtually impossible to teach good programming practices to students who have had a prior exposure to BASIC. They are mentally mutilated beyond hope of regeneration." "God made integers, all else is the work of man." - Leopold Konecke? Using floating point inappropriately might be the most common mistake made by those who start with a high level language (as I did), and come from a school mathematical background. If you would like to blame that mistake on something else, you're entitled. I blame that on certain aspects of mathematics education, including the emphasis on "pure" math and rote memorization to the detriment of understanding of calculatory methods. For example, how many people can compute a square root? What percentage of the polulace think that PI == 22/7, not "about 22/7"? > I've used that trick "trick"???? It's not a trick. It's one of the basic normal ways in computer math to get a fractional portion of an integer. Similarly, use and understanding of interpolation makes it trivial to compute a square root. Is it a "trick"? No. But lack of that "trick" accounts for why less than a tenth of a percent of college graduates can compute a square root. Yet anybody who takes a community college course in computer math instead of one from the Mathematics department, has no difficulty at all. Even using shifts and adds for multiplying isn't so much a "trick" as it is understanding the capabilities and limitations of the tools in use. Y = X * 10 Y = X * (8 + 2) Y = (X * 2) + (X * 8) Y = (X >>1) + (X >>3) T = X >>1 Y = T + T >>2 (leaving out discussion of accumulators) > I was using this to explore other methods .. a very reasonable and commendable thing to do. > I don't know what CRAP you learned, but I would try to be more gracious ... Trust me, it was horrible. Yes, I did get disciplined for insisting that "PI is about 3.1416 or 22/7" in the textbook did NOT mean that PI was exactly 22/7. I have much to unlearn to be able to work well with computer math. I am grateful for the help, tips, "tricks", and reality-checks that "seasoned" computer people have provided. I was even using floating point to determine which pixels to set to draw a line from (X1,Y1) to (X2,Y2) -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cclist at sydex.com Thu Oct 1 00:39:42 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2009 22:39:42 -0700 Subject: "What;s the matter with kids today" (Was: PCjr NMI and 8253 In-Reply-To: <20090930205615.F80398@shell.lmi.net> References: <4AC2362D.2050200@brutman.com>, <4AC4112D.6090201@brutman.com>, <20090930205615.F80398@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4AC3DE2E.13985.A152D@cclist.sydex.com> On 30 Sep 2009 at 22:04, Fred Cisin wrote: > What percentage of the polulace think that PI == 22/7, not "about > 22/7"? Hey, that only goes to show that the populace gets smarter with time. In 1897, the Indiana Legislature attempted to declare it as 3 (exactly). Gotta love them lawyers. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indiana_Pi_Bill But maybe not; politicians today seem to be as benighted as they ever were... Cheers, Chuck From pontus at Update.UU.SE Thu Oct 1 01:09:36 2009 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2009 08:09:36 +0200 Subject: Some new pictures... In-Reply-To: <4AC3D055.6080504@hachti.de> References: <4AC3D055.6080504@hachti.de> Message-ID: <20091001060935.GA5197@Update.UU.SE> Wow! What a goldmine, thanks for sharing Hachti. Is this part of a museum? Is it possible to visit? Please keep us informed about what will happen to the hardware, I would not mind doing a roadtrip for an auction of this stuff. I'm curious, what kind of terminal is this: http://picasaweb.google.com/iraeus/AFewImpressionsFromKiel#5387315072830026706 The blue racks in the center of this picture, is that a PDP-10 or PDP-15? http://picasaweb.google.com/iraeus/AFewImpressionsFromKiel#5387319646413170322 Kind regards, Pontus- From spc at conman.org Thu Oct 1 02:18:36 2009 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2009 03:18:36 -0400 Subject: PCjr NMI and 8253 Timer interactions In-Reply-To: <4AC40054.5040703@brutman.com> References: <4AC2362D.2050200@brutman.com> <20090929215904.GA32396@brevard.conman.org> <4AC291F6.5040705@brutman.com> <20090930055330.GA29752@brevard.conman.org> <4AC3FD9D.4000709@brutman.com> <4AC40054.5040703@brutman.com> Message-ID: <20091001071836.GA28544@brevard.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Michael B. Brutman once stated: > > On a related note, does anybody have a good method for doing a floating > point multiply in software? Before I steal an existing floating point > emulation lib, I'd like to see if I can cheat and just write enough code > to do the one multiply that I need. > > I need to figure out how to do this: > > float elapsed = ticks * 0.85; > > using purely integer operations. mov ax,ticks mov dx,55706 mul dx The result is now in DX (55,706 is 85% of 65,536). -spc From ggs at shiresoft.com Thu Oct 1 03:08:12 2009 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2009 01:08:12 -0700 Subject: PCjr NMI and 8253 Timer interactions In-Reply-To: <4AC4112D.6090201@brutman.com> References: <4AC2362D.2050200@brutman.com> <20090929215904.GA32396@brevard.conman.org> <4AC291F6.5040705@brutman.com> <20090930055330.GA29752@brevard.conman.org> <4AC3FD9D.4000709@brutman.com> <4AC40054.5040703@brutman.com> <230D3812-79E7-4149-B41D-627DE008E14E@shiresoft.com> <20090930183822.A68140@shell.lmi.net> <4AC4112D.6090201@brutman.com> Message-ID: <2A331095-2436-47D6-A0EC-379CA61199F4@shiresoft.com> On Sep 30, 2009, at 7:17 PM, Michael B. Brutman wrote: > Fred Cisin wrote: >> On Wed, 30 Sep 2009, Guy Sotomayor wrote: >>> >>> Why do people always seem to want to have elapsed time as a floating >>> point number? >>> >> Because some of the CRAP that they learned in school makes them >> think that >> truncation (or even rounding) to an int value "isn't the RIGHT >> answer". >> In the XenoSoft Sales Tax Genie, I wrote a very small TSR that >> calculated >> the sales tax of every California jurisdiction (based on ZIPCODE), >> rounded >> appropriately to an "exact" cents amount. I NEVER used floating >> point. >> I do not HAVE any "fraction of a cent" coins! >> -- >> Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com > > I think that both of you are making assumptions about my education, > upbringing, etc. that are not true and I'd like you to calm down. Please re-read what *I* said. Your original post contained: float elapsed = ticks * 0.85; Which is what *I* had the about. > > I've used that trick in all of my other TCP/IP apps so far - they > all report elapsed time (sometimes with decimal points), and I > managed to do it without ever linking in the floating point library. > > I was using this to explore other methods .. > > I don't know what CRAP you learned, but I would try to be more > gracious ... > Part of my job is to maintain/manage time for a particular OS. In that OS all time (internally) is kept as a 64-bit number of nanoseconds (10**-9 seconds). However, the number of people that insist that it be converted to a floating point number so that they can have seconds and fractional seconds (and then want to do math on it) is astounding. I tend to overreact on this topic because floating point to represent time is idiotic IMHO especially since some of the low level conversion constants I deal with are specified in femtoseconds (10**-15 seconds). If I can do everything necessary to maintain time in integer values at those precisions then I fail to understand why anyone needs to deal with time as a floating point value. In case anyone is wondering, 64-bits of nanoseconds can represent a time span of over 500 years. TTFN - Guy From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Thu Oct 1 03:17:23 2009 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Thu, 01 Oct 2009 09:17:23 +0100 Subject: Classic computers endangered! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4AC46593.7000103@philpem.me.uk> Murray McCullough wrote: > I read an article today in 'New Scientist' entitled 'Innovation: Classic > computers on the danger list' with Tom Simonite writing: "Pretty much every > adult alive today has seen computers change the world, but we are doing > precious little to celebrate the influence of the computers and software > that created our society." Indeed! Are we failing to preserve the earliest > part of microcomputing history? Will classiccmp.org discuss early ucomputers > in 5 yrs., 10 yrs.? Here's a link to (what appears to be) the article in question: Cheers, -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From hachti at hachti.de Thu Oct 1 06:13:52 2009 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Thu, 01 Oct 2009 13:13:52 +0200 Subject: Some new pictures... In-Reply-To: <20091001060935.GA5197@Update.UU.SE> References: <4AC3D055.6080504@hachti.de> <20091001060935.GA5197@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <4AC48EF0.30301@hachti.de> Hi Pontus, > What a goldmine, thanks for sharing Hachti. :-) > Is this part of a museum? I is part of what is becoming a museum. > Is > it possible to visit? Currently there's no public access. > Please keep us informed about what will happen to the hardware, I would > not mind doing a roadtrip for an auction of this stuff. I will post updates and availabilities to this list and de.alt.folklore.computers. > I'm curious, what kind of terminal is this: > http://picasaweb.google.com/iraeus/AFewImpressionsFromKiel#5387315072830026706 It's a DEC VT06 terminal - but it's already gone (I have to turn my head right to see it....). Saved it. Works. But is in *very* used condition. > The blue racks in the center of this picture, is that a PDP-10 or PDP-15? > http://picasaweb.google.com/iraeus/AFewImpressionsFromKiel#5387319646413170322 A pdp10. There were two in fact. One CPU and a very limited set of cabinets stays in Kiel. The rest is already gone away. It must have been a second generation pdp10. And the system (not everything was kept in the beginning of the 1990ies!!!) once was the biggest pdp10 installation in Europe.... I saved some disk drives (discussed earlier here) and some more bits. Best wishes, Philipp From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Oct 1 07:45:43 2009 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2009 05:45:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Classic computers endangered! In-Reply-To: from Murray McCullough at "Sep 30, 9 06:15:08 pm" Message-ID: <200910011245.n91CjiXk009500@floodgap.com> > I read an article today in 'New Scientist' entitled 'Innovation: Classic > computers on the danger list' with Tom Simonite writing: "Pretty much every > adult alive today has seen computers change the world, but we are doing > precious little to celebrate the influence of the computers and software > that created our society." Indeed! Are we failing to preserve the earliest > part of microcomputing history? Will classiccmp.org discuss early ucomputers > in 5 yrs., 10 yrs.? I like to think us fresh-faced young whippersnappers will carry the torch, once we're off everybody's lawn. ;-) -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- BOND THEME NOW PLAYING: "The Man With the Golden Gun" ---------------------- From rodsmallwood at btconnect.com Thu Oct 1 08:49:19 2009 From: rodsmallwood at btconnect.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2009 14:49:19 +0100 Subject: DEC paint: textures In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CD95D3BE816426199353AF8C7251FDF@EDIConsultingLtd.local> I've just examined a selection of DEC plastic panels (11/34, 11/94 etc) The splatter effect seems a very good color match to the panel it's on. It seems to be part of the surface. Why paint beige panel beige? You need to be very close to see the texture. It could have been a release agent sprayed into the mould or a pattern on the surface of the mould tool. Its mimicking the rough surface of the die cast aluminum bezels on PDP8's to a certain extent. Rod Smallwood -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Roger Holmes Sent: 30 September 2009 08:17 To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: DEC paint: textures My ICT 1301 (built 1962) has a sort of sand finish, a bit like very fine wood chip wallpaper. On the underside of one of the top covers they missed some of the top coat and I can see the texture was in a primer, which barely covers the metal. In the next couple of years I am going to have to respray some areas where the covers have been scratched, another where I've spot welded some changes and one where the roof leaked and the covers have rusted through. Good job I'm also a classic car restorer, but I've never come across sand texture paint on a car, not even on my Land Rover recovery truck. If anyone happens to know anything about sand finish, I'd love to know. From pat at computer-refuge.org Thu Oct 1 09:45:24 2009 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2009 10:45:24 -0400 Subject: Classic computers endangered! In-Reply-To: <200910011245.n91CjiXk009500@floodgap.com> References: <200910011245.n91CjiXk009500@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <200910011045.24177.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Thursday 01 October 2009, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > I read an article today in 'New Scientist' entitled 'Innovation: > > Classic computers on the danger list' with Tom Simonite writing: > > "Pretty much every adult alive today has seen computers change the > > world, but we are doing precious little to celebrate the influence > > of the computers and software that created our society." Indeed! > > Are we failing to preserve the earliest part of microcomputing > > history? Will classiccmp.org discuss early ucomputers in 5 yrs., 10 > > yrs.? > > I like to think us fresh-faced young whippersnappers will carry the > torch, once we're off everybody's lawn. ;-) > Indeed. :) -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From legalize at xmission.com Thu Oct 1 09:57:27 2009 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 01 Oct 2009 08:57:27 -0600 Subject: Classic computers endangered! In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 01 Oct 2009 09:17:23 +0100. <4AC46593.7000103@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: In article <4AC46593.7000103 at philpem.me.uk>, Philip Pemberton writes: > Murray McCullough wrote: > > I read an article today in 'New Scientist' entitled 'Innovation: Classic > > computers on the danger list' with Tom Simonite writing: "Pretty much every > > adult alive today has seen computers change the world, but we are doing > > precious little to celebrate the influence of the computers and software > > that created our society." Indeed! Are we failing to preserve the earliest > > part of microcomputing history? Will classiccmp.org discuss early ucomputer s > > in 5 yrs., 10 yrs.? > > Here's a link to (what appears to be) the article in question: > Well, this part is just plain uninfomed: "Science museums around the world have long collected computing kit. But there are only three institutions actively growing collections of outdated computers and restoring them to working order: the UK's National Museum of Computing (NMOC) at Bletchley Park; the Computer History Museum in Silicon Valley; and the Heinz Nixdorf MuseumsForum (HNF) in Padaborn, Germany." Only three? I can name a half-dozen more off the top of my head without even googling. Speaking of which, I need to visit that museum in Montana before it gets too cold. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Oct 1 11:21:59 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2009 12:21:59 -0400 Subject: Fairlight CMI In-Reply-To: References: <399726.45839.qm@web56202.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <0E2CDB22-4B42-4A26-9E04-C59FCCDAF8B6@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <19D95E38-C48B-459D-80A8-5A4FD92E5863@neurotica.com> On Sep 30, 2009, at 6:10 PM, Steven Hirsch wrote: >>> Being a vintage computer and synthesiser fan, I'd love >>> to get a Fairlight CMI for restoration/care/actual use >>> so if anyone has any Fairlight CMI model they would like >>> to either sell or trade let me know. Can be EU or US. >> >> Mmmmm, Fairlight. >> >> Years ago (1988 or so?) my friend Mike in Delaware had a >> Synclavier II. That thing was damn impressive. Sadly he no longer >> has it. Unless I'm mistaken, there's a MicroVAX-II in there! > > There's been earlier discussion on this list, but short answer is > that you are mistaken :-). The Synclavier was built around New > England Digital's own bit-slice CPU originally developed for their > ABEL minicomputer system. Probably based on AMD 29xx parts, > although I do not know that for sure. Really? I was actually pretty sure about that. I never saw the innards of the machine myself, but I will happily stand corrected! > A company I ran in the 80s did a lot of audio systems contracting > work with NED and I recall seeing terminals all over the place that > were logged on to the in-house ABEL system. I think they used it > for inventory, billing, etc. All the support software was > developed in the ABEL environment AFAIK. I've gotta assume this is different from the ABEL PLD design language. I've never heard of it, what is it? -Dave > -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cclist at sydex.com Thu Oct 1 11:32:04 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 01 Oct 2009 09:32:04 -0700 Subject: PCjr NMI and 8253 Timer interactions In-Reply-To: <066301ca41eb$7c803f20$6400a8c0@acerd3c08b49af> References: <4AC2362D.2050200@brutman.com>, <066301ca41eb$7c803f20$6400a8c0@acerd3c08b49af> Message-ID: <4AC47714.27126.25F57FB@cclist.sydex.com> On 30 Sep 2009 at 11:31, CSquared wrote: > Many years ago I tried a similar trick. I think I wanted a 10 > millisecond interrupt rate instead of 55ms for an embedded DOS > application, and I got it to work - sort of. However, I soon > discovered that many other things including the Borland delay() > function depend on the 55ms interval, so I rather quickly abandoned > that line of thinking. I rather suspect your PCjr keyboard driver is > making similar assumptions regarding the tick rate. Several programs made this work on the PC, as long as the interval could be a sub-multiple of 55 msec. So, for instance, if you could live with 11 msec. or 5.5 msec., this is how you would do it. Hook the interrupt 9 vector and create your own ISR for 4 of 5 timer interrupts, then direct the the 5th to the normal vector. All that's required in your ISR is any register saving required for your own needs, and a routine to issue an EOI to the 8259. Works like a charm--everything runs just as it should. However, on Mike's Peanut, there is no 8259. Everything goes through the NMI handler--a very bad decision on IBM's part, seeing as how the 8259 was one of the least expensive Intel 8x support chips. A rudimentary prioritized interrupt system could have been implemented with a priority encoder and some other glue. Cheers, Chuck From sellam at vintagetech.com Thu Oct 1 11:53:12 2009 From: sellam at vintagetech.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2009 09:53:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: PDP 14? Message-ID: Does anyone have a PDP 14? Or has anyone ever seen one out in the "wild"? If so, please contact me directly ;) Thanks! -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Oct 1 12:48:46 2009 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 01 Oct 2009 10:48:46 -0700 Subject: Compaq Portable III HDDs In-Reply-To: <710BD978DEB444B3AE488AEFE286F1E8@tegp4> References: <710BD978DEB444B3AE488AEFE286F1E8@tegp4> Message-ID: <4AC4EB7E.1010403@bitsavers.org> Tom Gardner wrote: > Hi: > > > > I'm a newbie to the group and a long time volunteer at the Computer History > Museum, Mt View CA. We'd like to know the models of Conner HDDs shipped in > the Compaq Portable IIIs. The Conner model numbers should have the form of > CP340, CP341, CP342, CP3102, etc. The following is a list of the known > capacity and Compaq PNs for the Conner HDDs shipped by Compaq: > Tom, here are the characteristics of the early Conner drives. CP-340 was SCSI MANUFACTURER UNFORMAT WTH. PL CYLS ST CYLS INTERFACE ACC POWER MODEL NUMBER FORMATED HGT. HD PREC AC HDS REC.METH T-T MTBF ADDITIONAL COMMENTS ST XFER CONNER 3.50 2 788 26 SCSI 29mS 4.3W CP-340 42.9MB HALF 4 VC (2,7)RLL 20K 7.5Mb P?= Y CONNER 3.50 2 805 26 IDE(AT) CP-341(i) 42.9MB HALF 4 VC (2,7)RLL 3:1 (i=1:1) 7.5Mb P?= Y CONNER 3.50 2 805 IDE(AT) 29mS CP-342 42.9MB HALF 4 VC (2,7)RLL 7.5Mb P?= Y CONNER 3.50 2 805 IDE 29mS CP-343 42.9MB HALF 4 VC (2,7)RLL FOR ZENITH PORTABLE 7.5Mb P?= Y CONNER 3.50 2 805 26 IDE(AT) 29mS 4.3W CP-344 42.9MB HALF 4 VC (2,7)RLL 20K 7.5Mb P?= Y From thomas.gardner at sbcglobal.net Thu Oct 1 12:50:49 2009 From: thomas.gardner at sbcglobal.net (Tom Gardner) Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2009 10:50:49 -0700 Subject: Compaq Portable III HDDs Message-ID: <12B5D8533DE04CE8A29DA255CA158FE4@tegp4> Hi: I'm a newbie to the group and a long time volunteer at the Computer History Museum, Mt View CA. We'd like to know the models of Conner HDDs shipped in the Compaq Portable IIIs. This is of interest because Conner, due to its Compaq relationship was at one time the fastest growing company in the history of commerce and because IDE interface introduced by Conner went on to dominate the market. The following is a list of the known capacity and Compaq PNs for the Conner HDDs shipped by Compaq - what we are trying to do is fill in the Conner column. The Conner model numbers should have the form of CP340, CP341, CP342, CP3102, etc. Portable III Hard Drives Size Type Inter-leave Integrated Min ROM Spare Part No Conner Model No 20MB 2 1:01 Y K Not known 20MB 2 3:01 Y K 107357-001 40MB 17 3:01 Y K 110358-001 40MB3 224 1:01 Y R.2 Not known 40MB3 43 1:01 Y F 114106-001 84MB3 27 1:01 Y K Not known 100MB3 45 1:01 Y K 142365-0011 120MB3,5 45 1:01 Y K 161832-0012 1 Except Europe. 2 Europe only. 3 Requires MS-DOS 3.2 or later. 4 Drive type 17 if ROM earlier than R.2 is used. 5 Formats to 100 MB. Extracted from http://oldcomputers.net/compaqiii.pdf and other sources Just the Conner model number would be good, but I would appreciate as much information as u can provide, such as the corresponding Compaq part number (if marked), a photo of the Conner technical data plate, and some information on the date of manufacture of the drive and system (such as photos of pcbs showing date lot codes). Tom Gardner From hachti at hachti.de Thu Oct 1 13:15:28 2009 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Thu, 01 Oct 2009 20:15:28 +0200 Subject: pdp11/20 (KA11) manuals anyone? Message-ID: <4AC4F1C0.2070404@hachti.de> Hui folks, I just realized that I've no docs for my pdp11/20 :-( (11/45 and 11/34 CPU docs are also missing...!) I have so many DEC docs.. But not for KA11..! If anyone has a manual set he doesn't need - PLEASE take about giving it away. I probably have interesting stuff to trade in. This applies to 11/45 and 11/34 as well. With decreasing urgency.. Best wishes, Philipp From hachti at hachti.de Thu Oct 1 13:16:40 2009 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Thu, 01 Oct 2009 20:16:40 +0200 Subject: Classic computers endangered! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4AC4F208.7000800@hachti.de> > Well, this part is just plain uninfomed: > > "Science museums around the world have long collected computing > kit. But there are only three institutions actively growing > collections of outdated computers and restoring them to working > order: the UK's National Museum of Computing (NMOC) at Bletchley > Park; the Computer History Museum in Silicon Valley; and the Heinz > Nixdorf MuseumsForum (HNF) in Padaborn, Germany." > > Only three? I can name a half-dozen more off the top of my head > without even googling. And the HNF doesn't do anything to get something running afaik.... From IanK at vulcan.com Thu Oct 1 13:23:40 2009 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2009 11:23:40 -0700 Subject: pdp11/20 (KA11) manuals anyone? In-Reply-To: <4AC4F1C0.2070404@hachti.de> References: <4AC4F1C0.2070404@hachti.de> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Philipp Hachtmann > Sent: Thursday, October 01, 2009 11:15 AM > To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: pdp11/20 (KA11) manuals anyone? > > Hui folks, > > I just realized that I've no docs for my pdp11/20 :-( > (11/45 and 11/34 CPU docs are also missing...!) > > I have so many DEC docs.. But not for KA11..! If anyone has a manual > set > he doesn't need - PLEASE take about giving it away. I probably have > interesting stuff to trade in. This applies to 11/45 and 11/34 as well. > With decreasing urgency.. > > Best wishes, > > Philipp Are you asking about physical manuals, or online ones? I know I have a couple of PDFs.... -- Ian From brad at heeltoe.com Thu Oct 1 13:48:12 2009 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Thu, 01 Oct 2009 14:48:12 -0400 Subject: IMP system software In-Reply-To: <76E77758-DF45-48E5-A376-DF4EABAA75D8@loomcom.com> (sfid-20090930_142507_081247_3810518B) References: <76E77758-DF45-48E5-A376-DF4EABAA75D8@loomcom.com> (sfid-20090930_142507_081247_3810518B) Message-ID: <4AC4F96C.30004@heeltoe.com> Seth Morabito wrote: > I think I asked about this several years ago, but I thought I might > try my luck again. > > Is anyone aware of any surviving ARPAnet IMP System Software, in any > form? After talking with a person from BBN it might be possible to read some old 7-track tapes with some code on them. Apparently the earliest versions were written in PDP-1 assembler with macros. Later a cross compiler was written for TENEX. I'll dog it for a while and see what happens. I suppose the next question is, "does anyone have docs on the Honeywell 516"? and is there a simulator? I'm game to write one for simh if there isn't one (but I'll hold off if someone else has their heart set on it) it might be more fun to write the pdp-1 assembler :-) -brad ----------- Brad Parker Heeltoe Consulting http://www.heeltoe.com 781-483-3101 From sethm at loomcom.com Thu Oct 1 15:06:47 2009 From: sethm at loomcom.com (Seth Morabito) Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2009 13:06:47 -0700 Subject: IMP system software In-Reply-To: <4AC4F96C.30004@heeltoe.com> References: <76E77758-DF45-48E5-A376-DF4EABAA75D8@loomcom.com> (sfid-20090930_142507_081247_3810518B) <4AC4F96C.30004@heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <4887868A-86FE-4250-8C77-B13A63EF9197@loomcom.com> On Oct 1, 2009, at 11:48 AM, Brad Parker wrote: > Seth Morabito wrote: >> I think I asked about this several years ago, but I thought I might >> try my luck again. >> >> Is anyone aware of any surviving ARPAnet IMP System Software, in >> any form? > > After talking with a person from BBN it might be possible to read > some old 7-track tapes with some code on them. Apparently the > earliest versions were written in PDP-1 assembler with macros. > Later a cross compiler was written for TENEX. That is some potentially very good news! Thanks for asking about this! > I'll dog it for a while and see what happens. I suppose the next > question is, "does anyone have docs on the Honeywell 516"? and > is there a simulator? There is not (yet) a 516 simulator, but Bob Supnik's SIMH does have an H316 simulator. See: http://simh.trailing-edge.com/h316.html Later IMPs were H316s, so possibly some of the code on those 7-tracks is written for them? I have no idea how much work would be involved in adding a 516 mode to SIMH, nor how hard it would be to simulate the bit-serial IMP-host interface hardware, but I'd certainly be game to help with that. -Seth From adrian at adrianwise.co.uk Thu Oct 1 15:28:19 2009 From: adrian at adrianwise.co.uk (Adrian Wise) Date: Thu, 01 Oct 2009 21:28:19 +0100 Subject: IMP system software In-Reply-To: <4887868A-86FE-4250-8C77-B13A63EF9197@loomcom.com> References: <76E77758-DF45-48E5-A376-DF4EABAA75D8@loomcom.com> (sfid-20090930_142507_081247_3810518B) <4AC4F96C.30004@heeltoe.com> <4887868A-86FE-4250-8C77-B13A63EF9197@loomcom.com> Message-ID: <4AC510E3.6080802@adrianwise.co.uk> > I have no idea how much work would be involved in adding a 516 mode to > SIMH, nor how hard it would be to simulate the bit-serial IMP-host > interface hardware, but I'd certainly be game to help with that. The 516 and the 316 are 100% code compatible. Just the cycle time differs (0.96us for the 516, 1.3us for the 316 IIRC) Adrian http://www.series16.adrianwise.co.uk From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Oct 1 15:47:50 2009 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2009 13:47:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: IMP system software In-Reply-To: <4AC4F96C.30004@heeltoe.com> References: <76E77758-DF45-48E5-A376-DF4EABAA75D8@loomcom.com> (sfid-20090930_142507_081247_3810518B) <4AC4F96C.30004@heeltoe.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 1 Oct 2009, Brad Parker wrote: > After talking with a person from BBN it might be possible to read > some old 7-track tapes with some code on them. Apparently the > earliest versions were written in PDP-1 assembler with macros. > Later a cross compiler was written for TENEX. My question would be, what do they have for TENEX, and would they be willing to release that. It would be nice to see TENEX preserved. Though on the PDP-10 we already have TOPS-10, TOPS-20, and ITS. ISTR, that bitsavers has a few TENEX files. Zane From thomas.gardner at sbcglobal.net Thu Oct 1 15:51:19 2009 From: thomas.gardner at sbcglobal.net (Tom Gardner) Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2009 13:51:19 -0700 Subject: Compaq Portable III HDDs - clean drive table Message-ID: Hi: Sorry for the confusing prior posts, here is the chart of Compaq Portable III drives in a legible form Portable III Hard Drives Min Compaq Conner Size Type Interleave Integrated ROM Spare Part No Model No 20MB 2 1:01 Y K Not known 20MB 2 3:01 Y K 107357-001 40MB 17 3:01 Y K 110358-001 40MB 224 1:01 Y R.2 Not known 40MB 43 1:01 Y F 114106-001 84MB 27 1:01 Y K Not known 100MB 45 1:01 Y K 142365-0011 120MB 45 1:01 Y K 161832-0012 Extracted from http://oldcomputers.net/compaqiii.pdf ?and other sources Any help in filling in the Conner Model Number column would be appreciated. Tom Gardner From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Oct 1 15:58:44 2009 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 01 Oct 2009 13:58:44 -0700 Subject: TENEX (was Re: IMP system software) In-Reply-To: References: <76E77758-DF45-48E5-A376-DF4EABAA75D8@loomcom.com> (sfid-20090930_142507_081247_3810518B) <4AC4F96C.30004@heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <4AC51804.4070605@bitsavers.org> Zane H. Healy wrote: > > > On Thu, 1 Oct 2009, Brad Parker wrote: > >> After talking with a person from BBN it might be possible to read >> some old 7-track tapes with some code on them. Apparently the >> earliest versions were written in PDP-1 assembler with macros. >> Later a cross compiler was written for TENEX. > > My question would be, what do they have for TENEX, and would they be > willing > to release that. Mark Crispin has some stuff. I have some from the SRI archives. Dan Murphy should have some things, but it may have been lost when they wiped out his tapes with PDP-1 TECO on it. There is also the TENEX variant used on the Foonlys (FOONEX). From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 1 15:59:59 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2009 21:59:59 +0100 (BST) Subject: Classic computers endangered! In-Reply-To: <4AC46593.7000103@philpem.me.uk> from "Philip Pemberton" at Oct 1, 9 09:17:23 am Message-ID: > Here's a link to (what appears to be) the article in question: > The photographs have a couple of curiousities in them. Firstly, they say that the PDP8 line started in 1965 (which sounds aout right), but the picture is of a much later (early 70's) PDP8/e (which uses TTL ICs, not discrete transistors). Secondly, in the picture of the HP250, am I correct that there's a Casio AL2000 calculator sitting on it (maybe badged Commodore, like the AL1000 sometimes was). Surely any HP owner would have had an HP9815 or HP9825 there... I am also getting somewhat fed up with this idea that classic computers are difficult to repair (or worse 'can't be repaired'). In general it is easier to find parts for older machines that new ones. Most of the bits (at least those that are likely to fail) for 1960's and 1970's machines are not hard to find. But just try finding components for 1990's machines. There is also (IMHO) no shortage of people who can repair said old machines. What there is is a shortage of owners who are prepared to pay for such repairs. Serveral times I've been contacted by organisations who what a (normally an HP of some flavour) fixed, but 'there's no budget for it'. Sorry, it doesn't work that way. If you want me to fix the machine, I charge. Needless to say, I don't charge for advice on lists like this one which depend on the exchange of information (I consider the information and interest I get from this list easily repays me). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 1 15:47:18 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2009 21:47:18 +0100 (BST) Subject: Classic computers endangered! In-Reply-To: from "Murray McCullough" at Sep 30, 9 06:15:08 pm Message-ID: > part of microcomputing history? Will classiccmp.org discuss early ucomputers > in 5 yrs., 10 yrs.? Doesn't cctalk/cctech alread discuss 'early' microcomputers? I put in the quotes becasue some quite recent ones would appear to be on-topic. 23 years ago a friend and I realised that while (at that time) museums, etc were preserving some very early computer stuff, nothing was being done aout the more recent machines (minicomputers, micros, etc) and that unless something was done then 30 years fo computer history was going to vanish. The result was that our houses became full of old computers... -tony From evan at snarc.net Thu Oct 1 16:16:19 2009 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Thu, 01 Oct 2009 17:16:19 -0400 Subject: Classic computers endangered! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4AC51C23.5080905@snarc.net> > Well, this part is just plain uninfomed: > > "Science museums around the world have long collected computing > kit. But there are only three institutions actively growing > collections of outdated computers and restoring them to working > order: the UK's National Museum of Computing (NMOC) at Bletchley > Park; the Computer History Museum in Silicon Valley; and the Heinz > Nixdorf MuseumsForum (HNF) in Padaborn, Germany." > > Only three? I can name a half-dozen more off the top of my head > without even googling. > There are 15(-ish) computer museums just in the U.S.A. From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Oct 1 16:22:34 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2009 17:22:34 -0400 Subject: Classic computers endangered! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Oct 1, 2009, at 4:59 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> Here's a link to (what appears to be) the article in question: >> > computers-on-the-danger-list.html?DCMP=OTC-rss&nsref=tech> > > The photographs have a couple of curiousities in them. Firstly, > they say > that the PDP8 line started in 1965 (which sounds aout right), It is correct. > but the > picture is of a much later (early 70's) PDP8/e (which uses TTL ICs, > not > discrete transistors). 1970, yes. There aren't many other models around to photograph, though, comparatively speaking. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From IanK at vulcan.com Thu Oct 1 17:09:19 2009 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2009 15:09:19 -0700 Subject: Classic computers endangered! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dave McGuire > Sent: Thursday, October 01, 2009 2:23 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Classic computers endangered! > > On Oct 1, 2009, at 4:59 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > >> Here's a link to (what appears to be) the article in question: > >> >> computers-on-the-danger-list.html?DCMP=OTC-rss&nsref=tech> > > > > The photographs have a couple of curiousities in them. Firstly, > > they say > > that the PDP8 line started in 1965 (which sounds aout right), > > It is correct. > > > but the > > picture is of a much later (early 70's) PDP8/e (which uses TTL ICs, > > not > > discrete transistors). > > 1970, yes. There aren't many other models around to photograph, > though, comparatively speaking. > > -Dave > Well, we have everything but a Straight-8 and an 8/a (but we're always looking). The 8/i doesn't seem all that uncommon. Of course, according to New Scientist, we don't even exist. :-) From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Oct 1 18:09:41 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2009 19:09:41 -0400 Subject: Classic computers endangered! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Oct 1, 2009, at 6:09 PM, Ian King wrote: > Well, we have everything but a Straight-8 and an 8/a (but we're > always looking). The 8/i doesn't seem all that uncommon. Of > course, according to New Scientist, we don't even exist. :-) I've been looking for an 8/i for, quite literally, twenty years. I have seen precisely ONE in the flesh. I assure you they're quite uncommon. ;) (Now be careful Ian, for if you disagree, I'll take it as an offer for you to find one for me! ;)) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Oct 1 19:48:34 2009 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2009 17:48:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Classic computers endangered! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 1 Oct 2009, Ian King wrote: > Well, we have everything but a Straight-8 and an 8/a (but we're always > looking). The 8/i doesn't seem all that uncommon. Of course, according > to New Scientist, we don't even exist. :-) Is there a reason you don't have an -8/a? Zane From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Thu Oct 1 22:09:34 2009 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Thu, 01 Oct 2009 20:09:34 -0700 Subject: FS: PDP 8/e (Seattle, WA) Message-ID: <4AC56EEE.7030006@mail.msu.edu> So a couple of weekends ago I was down sick with the flu and one late evening when I couldn't sleep I purchased a PDP-8/e off eBay, having convinced myself it was a really good deal while only half-awake. Here's the thing -- I already have an 8/e; I have no idea what I'm going to do with /two /of them. Here's what I have -- a bare-minimum 8/e with 4k of core, the basic CPU set and a single Omnibus backplane. No top cover. Front panel bulbs all seem good. It works fine (as far as I can tell -- programs I toggle in run, etc), is very clean, and is in decent shape. (A few scratches on the front panel, but honestly it doesn't look that bad.) An interesting detail -- the front panel says "digital equipment international ltd galway, ireland" instead of the usual "maynard, massachusetts" herald. I'm assuming that means it's worth a million dollars. Think of the deal you'll be getting! I'm asking only what I paid for it, which is $650. (Or alternately, trading for something "cool." Always looking for an Altair or a Xerox D-machine... :)) I'd prefer local pickup (and I'll drive a ways to meet you) but if you want to arrange something with Craters & Freighters or something similar I can do that too. I don't trust myself to pack and ship this thing myself without breaking it (and that would be a shame.) I can take pictures if desired. Thanks, Josh From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Oct 1 22:13:06 2009 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2009 20:13:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Macintosh IIci cache cards Message-ID: <200910020313.n923D6XM012860@floodgap.com> My hungry, hungry Mac IIcis gradually eat through cache cards (about one every three or four years) and I'm down to a low stock again. If you have some sitting in your closet doing nothing and could possibly be persuaded to discuss their future, please send me a message off-list. You will make IIcis doing real work in my apartment very happy :) -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- If Milli Vanilli falls in the woods, does someone else make a sound? -- rhf From rickb at bensene.com Thu Oct 1 22:26:13 2009 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2009 20:26:13 -0700 Subject: Classic computers endangered! In-Reply-To: References: <4AC46593.7000103@philpem.me.uk> from "Philip Pemberton" at Oct 1, 9 09:17:23 am Message-ID: Tony wrote: > Secondly, in the picture of the HP250, am I correct that there's a > Casio AL2000 calculator sitting on it (maybe badged Commodore, like the > AL1000 sometimes was). Yup, it's an AL-2000 all right. No way to tell (I tried to save the image and zoom in but the resolution isn't high enough) if it's Casio or Commodore-badged (or even possibly Sperry/Remington). Rick Bensene The Old Calculator Museum http://oldcalculatormuseum.com/casal2k.html From IanK at vulcan.com Thu Oct 1 23:12:40 2009 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2009 21:12:40 -0700 Subject: Classic computers endangered! In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: ________________________________________ From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Zane H. Healy [healyzh at aracnet.com] Sent: Thursday, October 01, 2009 5:48 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: RE: Classic computers endangered! On Thu, 1 Oct 2009, Ian King wrote: > Well, we have everything but a Straight-8 and an 8/a (but we're always > looking). The 8/i doesn't seem all that uncommon. Of course, according > to New Scientist, we don't even exist. :-) Is there a reason you don't have an -8/a? Zane From brain at jbrain.com Thu Oct 1 23:13:53 2009 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Thu, 01 Oct 2009 23:13:53 -0500 Subject: Classic computers endangered! In-Reply-To: <200910011245.n91CjiXk009500@floodgap.com> References: <200910011245.n91CjiXk009500@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <4AC57E01.8000909@jbrain.com> Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> I read an article today in 'New Scientist' entitled 'Innovation: Classic >> computers on the danger list' with Tom Simonite writing: "Pretty much every >> adult alive today has seen computers change the world, but we are doing >> precious little to celebrate the influence of the computers and software >> that created our society." Indeed! Are we failing to preserve the earliest >> part of microcomputing history? Will classiccmp.org discuss early ucomputers >> in 5 yrs., 10 yrs.? >> > > I like to think us fresh-faced young whippersnappers will carry the torch, > once we're off everybody's lawn. ;-) > > Don't we have to grow a beard and get a "real computer" first? http://tomayko.com/writings/that-dilbert-cartoon Jim "mumbles something about the list telling him he can;t be one of them until he's programmed a machine on a *REAL* TTY, where TTY involved something mechanical" Brain -- Jim Brain, Brain Innovations (X) brain at jbrain.com Dabbling in WWW, Embedded Systems, Old CBM computers, and Good Times! Home: http://www.jbrain.com From IanK at vulcan.com Thu Oct 1 23:13:06 2009 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2009 21:13:06 -0700 Subject: Classic computers endangered! In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: We just haven't found one in decent condition at a decent price... and it hasn't been a priority. (I have one in my personal collection, and, well, it's a computer. With *no* blinkenlights.) Now if you have a PDP-11/70, or an IBM 360/67.... :-) -- Ian ________________________________________ From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Zane H. Healy [healyzh at aracnet.com] Sent: Thursday, October 01, 2009 5:48 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: RE: Classic computers endangered! On Thu, 1 Oct 2009, Ian King wrote: > Well, we have everything but a Straight-8 and an 8/a (but we're always > looking). The 8/i doesn't seem all that uncommon. Of course, according > to New Scientist, we don't even exist. :-) Is there a reason you don't have an -8/a? Zane From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Oct 1 23:41:11 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2009 00:41:11 -0400 Subject: Classic computers endangered! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Oct 1, 2009 at 7:09 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > ?I've been looking for an 8/i for, quite literally, twenty years. ?I have > seen precisely ONE in the flesh. ?I assure you they're quite uncommon. ;) I've only seen one as well - of course, it's one I see all the time since it's mine... I haven't seen any in person anywhere else - I'd also go with "uncommon" since not that many were made, and they weren't as portable as, say, the -8/L (of which I've seen half a dozen). I think the one model I've never seen in person is the -8/f. Seen a few of the -8/e and a couple -8/m, but not the -8/f. -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Oct 1 23:42:29 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2009 00:42:29 -0400 Subject: Classic computers endangered! In-Reply-To: <4AC57E01.8000909@jbrain.com> References: <200910011245.n91CjiXk009500@floodgap.com> <4AC57E01.8000909@jbrain.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Oct 2, 2009 at 12:13 AM, Jim Brain wrote: > Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> I like to think us fresh-faced young whippersnappers will carry the torch, >> once we're off everybody's lawn. ;-) > > Don't we have to grow a beard and get a "real computer" first? > > http://tomayko.com/writings/that-dilbert-cartoon When "that cartoon" first came out 15ish years ago, I printed it out, hung it above my desk, and taped a nickle to it. Nobody who visited me ever said a peep about it. -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Oct 1 23:46:40 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2009 00:46:40 -0400 Subject: Classic computers endangered! In-Reply-To: References: <4AC46593.7000103@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: On Thu, Oct 1, 2009 at 4:59 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > I am also getting somewhat fed up with this idea that classic computers > are difficult to repair (or worse 'can't be repaired'). In general it is > easier to find parts for older machines that new ones. Most of the bits > (at least those that are likely to fail) for 1960's and 1970's machines > are not hard to find. But just try finding components for 1990's > machines. Agreed for many parts of 1990s machines, but as for 1960s and 1970s DEC machines in particular (the subject I know more about than others), there are a few parts here and there that are getting difficult to find without robbing them from other machines - Omnibus buffers come to mind first, and certain parts from the -8/i and -8/L era, like the 74H40 or the 7482. They aren't complete unobtanium yet, but they are nowhere near as easy to find as they were 10 years ago. Mostly, though, for that era, I find that 7474s, 7400s, and one or two other TTL parts are the most likely to turn up with one or more bad gates when I start debugging things made from M-series modules. Those are not hard to find, and not difficult at all to replace. -ethan From pontus at Update.UU.SE Fri Oct 2 01:03:22 2009 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2009 08:03:22 +0200 Subject: Classic computers endangered! In-Reply-To: <4AC51C23.5080905@snarc.net> References: <4AC51C23.5080905@snarc.net> Message-ID: <20091002060322.GA20012@Update.UU.SE> On Thu, Oct 01, 2009 at 05:16:19PM -0400, Evan Koblentz wrote: > > >Well, this part is just plain uninfomed: > > > > "Science museums around the world have long collected computing > > kit. But there are only three institutions actively growing > > collections of outdated computers and restoring them to working > > order: the UK's National Museum of Computing (NMOC) at Bletchley > > Park; the Computer History Museum in Silicon Valley; and the Heinz > > Nixdorf MuseumsForum (HNF) in Padaborn, Germany." > > > >Only three? I can name a half-dozen more off the top of my head > >without even googling. > There are 15(-ish) computer museums just in the U.S.A. Not to mention the technical museums that does not focus on computers but have large collections. For instance a Cray-1 is on exibit in the Stockholm technical museum and there is a _very_ nice setup of a Cray-2 in the Musee des Arts et Metiers in Paris. /P From jlobocki at gmail.com Thu Oct 1 13:24:10 2009 From: jlobocki at gmail.com (joe lobocki) Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2009 13:24:10 -0500 Subject: Classic computers endangered! In-Reply-To: <4AC46593.7000103@philpem.me.uk> References: <4AC46593.7000103@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: I think we will be the ones to carry on microcomputer history, and I'm sure there will always be groups who will discuss this and restore equipment like we do now, the same way that there aren't too many auto museums, but all over the world, there are plenty of personal collections and museums in peoples backyards. On Thu, Oct 1, 2009 at 3:17 AM, Philip Pemberton wrote: > Murray McCullough wrote: > >> I read an article today in 'New Scientist' entitled 'Innovation: Classic >> computers on the danger list' with Tom Simonite writing: "Pretty much >> every >> adult alive today has seen computers change the world, but we are doing >> precious little to celebrate the influence of the computers and software >> that created our society." Indeed! Are we failing to preserve the earliest >> part of microcomputing history? Will classiccmp.org discuss early >> ucomputers >> in 5 yrs., 10 yrs.? >> > > Here's a link to (what appears to be) the article in question: > < > http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn17805-innovation-classic-computers-on-the-danger-list.html?DCMP=OTC-rss&nsref=tech > > > > Cheers, > -- > Phil. > classiccmp at philpem.me.uk > http://www.philpem.me.uk/ > From csquared3 at tx.rr.com Thu Oct 1 17:03:19 2009 From: csquared3 at tx.rr.com (CSquared) Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2009 17:03:19 -0500 Subject: PCjr NMI and 8253 Timer interactions References: <4AC2362D.2050200@brutman.com>, <066301ca41eb$7c803f20$6400a8c0@acerd3c08b49af> <4AC47714.27126.25F57FB@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <001901ca42e2$fcd21930$6400a8c0@acerd3c08b49af> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chuck Guzis" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, October 01, 2009 11:32 AM Subject: Re: PCjr NMI and 8253 Timer interactions > On 30 Sep 2009 at 11:31, CSquared wrote: > >> Many years ago I tried a similar trick. I think I wanted a 10 >> millisecond interrupt rate instead of 55ms for an embedded DOS >> application, and I got it to work - sort of. However, I soon >> discovered that many other things including the Borland delay() >> function depend on the 55ms interval, so I rather quickly abandoned >> that line of thinking. I rather suspect your PCjr keyboard driver is >> making similar assumptions regarding the tick rate. > > Several programs made this work on the PC, as long as the interval > could be a sub-multiple of 55 msec. So, for instance, if you could > live with 11 msec. or 5.5 msec., this is how you would do it. > > Hook the interrupt 9 vector and create your own ISR for 4 of 5 timer > interrupts, then direct the the 5th to the normal vector. All that's > required in your ISR is any register saving required for your own > needs, and a routine to issue an EOI to the 8259. Works like a > charm--everything runs just as it should. Neat! I never thought of that, but I can see that it would work just fine. I'm pretty sure I made the mistake of changing the 8253 counting rate without compensating for it as you describe. I probably could have lived with an 11ms interrupt rate too. I was porting a good-sized semi-ancient program from PLM-51 on an 8032 to C and PLM-86 to run on an embedded PC motherboard, and did not want to have to change a whole bunch of timing constants with the attendant risk of overlooking something. I wound up just changing all the constants instead. I'll have to keep your idea in mind for future reference. Believe it or not, I still do a bit of development under DOS at times. > > However, on Mike's Peanut, there is no 8259. Everything goes through > the NMI handler--a very bad decision on IBM's part, seeing as how the > 8259 was one of the least expensive Intel 8x support chips. A > rudimentary prioritized interrupt system could have been implemented > with a priority encoder and some other glue. I did not know that; I've never done anything at all with a PCjr. > > Cheers, > Chuck > > From ddsnyder at zoominternet.net Thu Oct 1 18:44:06 2009 From: ddsnyder at zoominternet.net (Daniel Snyder) Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2009 19:44:06 -0400 Subject: DEC paint: textures References: <4AC248B1.5010106@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <001901ca42f1$10c99b80$6501a8c0@HP24150918428> Contacted Randolph Products, reply is: In the past we used to have relatively strong demand for various Digital Equip colors in aerosol form. this demand has dropped to the point we were no longer stock liquid or aerosol in Dgital colors. We can make as an "on demand item". Minimum production would be approx 100-120 cans. If you are interested please advise and I will have our sales office prepare a quotation Jim Leighton Randolph Products 33 Haynes Circle Chicopee, MA 01020 413-592-4191 ext 104 413-594-7321 fax JLeighton at randolphproducts.com www.randolphproducts.com I have a Alphaserver DS20E that a knucklehead packed.. a bit scrapped up, so I want to refinish the case sides and top.. Top Gun Blue is my current search. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Al Kossow" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, September 29, 2009 1:49 PM Subject: Re: DEC paint: textures > Wai-Sun Chia wrote: >> Google "hammerite" and "powder coating". >> > > sigh.. > > http://classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/2006-November/228009.html > > > From snhirsch at gmail.com Thu Oct 1 20:44:41 2009 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2009 21:44:41 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Fairlight CMI In-Reply-To: <19D95E38-C48B-459D-80A8-5A4FD92E5863@neurotica.com> References: <399726.45839.qm@web56202.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <0E2CDB22-4B42-4A26-9E04-C59FCCDAF8B6@neurotica.com> <19D95E38-C48B-459D-80A8-5A4FD92E5863@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 1 Oct 2009, Dave McGuire wrote: > On Sep 30, 2009, at 6:10 PM, Steven Hirsch wrote: >>>> Being a vintage computer and synthesiser fan, I'd love >>>> to get a Fairlight CMI for restoration/care/actual use >>>> so if anyone has any Fairlight CMI model they would like >>>> to either sell or trade let me know. Can be EU or US. >>> >>> Mmmmm, Fairlight. >>> >>> Years ago (1988 or so?) my friend Mike in Delaware had a Synclavier II. >>> That thing was damn impressive. Sadly he no longer has it. Unless I'm >>> mistaken, there's a MicroVAX-II in there! >> >> There's been earlier discussion on this list, but short answer is that you >> are mistaken :-). The Synclavier was built around New England Digital's >> own bit-slice CPU originally developed for their ABEL minicomputer system. >> Probably based on AMD 29xx parts, although I do not know that for sure. > > Really? I was actually pretty sure about that. I never saw the innards of > the machine myself, but I will happily stand corrected! > >> A company I ran in the 80s did a lot of audio systems contracting work with >> NED and I recall seeing terminals all over the place that were logged on to >> the in-house ABEL system. I think they used it for inventory, billing, >> etc. All the support software was developed in the ABEL environment AFAIK. > > I've gotta assume this is different from the ABEL PLD design language. I've > never heard of it, what is it? I forget what the acronym means, but it has nothing to do with the ABEL PLD language. NED was started by a couple of folks from Dartmouth College, Sidney Alonzo and Cameron Jones. A mutual friend at the time described Cameron as "capable of scrolling code on the inside of his eyelids" :-). I suspect they produced the ABEL minicomputer to get some cash-flow coming in while the Synclavier was being productized. The work on the synthesizer started at Dartmouth. During the heyday of NED, they endowed the college with the slickest electronic music studio you ever laid eyes on. An entire lab full of Synclavier keyboards and terminals running time-shared off a greatly expanded CPU. My company also did a lot of work for Dartmouth and it was always a gas to be in that room! From memory, I think we installed a bunch of audio patchbays and multi-core trunk cables, but that was almost 25 years ago and things are a bit vague. -- From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Fri Oct 2 03:46:37 2009 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2009 10:46:37 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Some new pictures... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 30 Sep 2009, Richard wrote: > Wow... awesome stuff. Too bad they're having to downsize a bunch of > it. The Tektronix 4006 terminal in there is particularly rare. The > 4014 isn't exactly common either, but I'm only aware of one person > that has a 4006 -- our own Bob Rosenbloom. I know two other persons, one of them is me. Christian From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Fri Oct 2 03:49:11 2009 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2009 10:49:11 +0200 (CEST) Subject: PCjr NMI and 8253 Timer interactions In-Reply-To: <4AC3FD9D.4000709@brutman.com> References: <4AC2362D.2050200@brutman.com> <20090929215904.GA32396@brevard.conman.org> <4AC291F6.5040705@brutman.com> <20090930055330.GA29752@brevard.conman.org> <4AC3FD9D.4000709@brutman.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 30 Sep 2009, Michael B. Brutman wrote: > on floating point emulation in the Turbo C++ 3.0 library. Even though I ^^^ I beg your pardon? > On an unrelated note, CLI and STI are not enough to prevent an NMI on this Guess why it's called a non-maskable interrupt... Christian From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Fri Oct 2 04:00:53 2009 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2009 11:00:53 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Classic computers endangered! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 1 Oct 2009, Richard wrote: > Well, this part is just plain uninfomed: > > "Science museums around the world have long collected computing > kit. But there are only three institutions actively growing > collections of outdated computers and restoring them to working > order: the UK's National Museum of Computing (NMOC) at Bletchley > Park; the Computer History Museum in Silicon Valley; and the Heinz > Nixdorf MuseumsForum (HNF) in Padaborn, Germany." > > Only three? I can name a half-dozen more off the top of my head > without even googling. And at least the HNF does not restore/run their machines, they don't even display them in a logical manner (and it's Paderborn, not Padaborn ;-)) OTOH our little museum has been collecting/restoring etc. for much over ten years now. And of course, almost everything on display is functional (people don't want to see dead junk, they are much more impressed by a demonstration). Christian From hachti at hachti.de Fri Oct 2 07:14:14 2009 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Fri, 02 Oct 2009 14:14:14 +0200 Subject: IMP system software In-Reply-To: <4AC510E3.6080802@adrianwise.co.uk> References: <76E77758-DF45-48E5-A376-DF4EABAA75D8@loomcom.com> (sfid-20090930_142507_081247_3810518B) <4AC4F96C.30004@heeltoe.com> <4887868A-86FE-4250-8C77-B13A63EF9197@loomcom.com> <4AC510E3.6080802@adrianwise.co.uk> Message-ID: <4AC5EE96.50201@hachti.de> Adrian Wise wrote: > The 516 and the 316 are 100% code compatible. Just wanted to write that... > Just the cycle time > differs (0.96us for the 516, 1.3us for the 316 IIRC) Have you tuned up your H316? My machine is running on 1.6us! In that case I would be glad to get your CPU and memory timing configuration :-) (Otherwise it would be an interesting experiment to see if and how much faster a H316 could be made. I'm quite confident that Honeywell/3C delivered the machines in a very stable configuration with big reserves with respect to reliability) Best wishes, Philipp :-) From tshoppa at wmata.com Fri Oct 2 08:28:44 2009 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim) Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2009 09:28:44 -0400 Subject: PDP 14 Message-ID: > Does anyone have a PDP 14? Or has anyone ever seen one out in the "wild"? > If so, please contact me directly ;) The PDP-14 was not a conventional computer... it was what we call today a PLC (programmable logic controller). Very adaptable to ladder logic and a bit more. DEC was pretty swift in how they allowed the PDP-14 to be configured via a real computer (a -11 or -8). It wasn't the GUI of PLC configuration today or even of the 80's, but it was a good start. The overall model of PLC configured or monitored by a computer still holds true today, I think that DEC could have really taken this idea and run with it but the overlap between industrial control and computers even today is less than thorough. The computer geeks don't understand the industrial control and process engineers for the most part (thus the common misuse of Windows PC's where a PLC could do the job far better and without point-and-drool.) IMHO if you are interested in PDP-14 you must also be interested in early Modicon PLC's, which were far more common, predate the PDP-14, used core memory like the PDP-14, and which the PDP-14 was pretty much a clone of. I think Modicon was also a Massachusets company like DEC. I never used a PDP-14 but I always understood them to be very much like the core-based Modicons I used. Tim. From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Fri Oct 2 08:30:12 2009 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Fri, 02 Oct 2009 08:30:12 -0500 Subject: PCjr NMI and 8253 Timer interactions In-Reply-To: References: <4AC2362D.2050200@brutman.com> <20090929215904.GA32396@brevard.conman.org> <4AC291F6.5040705@brutman.com> <20090930055330.GA29752@brevard.conman.org> <4AC3FD9D.4000709@brutman.com> Message-ID: <4AC60064.8040407@brutman.com> Christian Corti wrote: > On Wed, 30 Sep 2009, Michael B. Brutman wrote: >> on floating point emulation in the Turbo C++ 3.0 library. Even though I > ^^^ > I beg your pardon? Yes .. Turbo C++ 3.0 for DOS. I don't use a lot of the fancier C++ language features because they are not appropriate for this type of programming. It looks like very well structured and encapsulated C when I use it. >> On an unrelated note, CLI and STI are not enough to prevent an NMI on >> this > > Guess why it's called a non-maskable interrupt... Thanks - I don't think I missed that though. I think you missed the subtlety of the problem - on a normal PC an NMI would be very rare. On a PCjr you can hit any key on the keyboard and cause it. That makes the the CLI/STI exposure to NMI much greater on this machine. (And on the PC Convertible from what I am reading.) > Christian > > From cclist at sydex.com Fri Oct 2 10:33:40 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 02 Oct 2009 08:33:40 -0700 Subject: PDP 14 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4AC5BAE4.1691.7506A32@cclist.sydex.com> On 2 Oct 2009 at 9:28, Shoppa, Tim wrote: > IMHO if you are interested in PDP-14 you must also be interested in > early Modicon PLC's, which were far more common, predate the PDP-14, > used core memory like the PDP-14, and which the PDP-14 was pretty much > a clone of. I think Modicon was also a Massachusets company like DEC. Do any IBM 1710s survive? That certainly has to qualify as one of the earliest process-control computers around. --Chuck From chd_1 at nktelco.net Fri Oct 2 17:04:06 2009 From: chd_1 at nktelco.net (Charles H Dickman) Date: Fri, 02 Oct 2009 18:04:06 -0400 Subject: PDP 14 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4AC678D6.8000101@nktelco.net> I have never seen one alive, but I have the remains of one: logic unit boards, miscellaneous generic flip-chips, some I/O boards, etc. Unfortunately, no backplane. This was the original PDP-14 (Straight-14?). It was to have a core-rope ROM in the final installation vs. core. I think there were later versions that had writable program storage. Shoppa, Tim wrote: > The PDP-14 was not a conventional computer... it was what we call today a PLC > > (programmable logic controller). Very adaptable to ladder logic and a bit more. > Very primitive, but the right thing for discrete logic control. I have some notes about it here: http://www.chdickman.com/pdp14/ I think Motorola had a 16pin dip logic unit that did basically the same thing. > DEC was pretty swift in how they allowed the PDP-14 to be configured via a real computer (a -11 or -8). It wasn't the GUI of PLC configuration today or even of the 80's, but it was a good start. > The parts I have came from a system that was to have run a stamping press. In this case, the PDP-14 was basically a discrete I/O adapter for a PDP-8/e. > The overall model of PLC configured or monitored by a computer still holds true today, I think that DEC could have really taken this idea and run with it but the overlap between industrial control and computers even today is less than thorough. The computer geeks don't understand the industrial control and process engineers for the most part (thus the common misuse of Windows PC's where a PLC could do the job far better and without point-and-drool.) > PLCs to control the process and PCs to monitor the process. I don't know that I want Vista in charge. It might be only a tool, but that tool might be very expensive. > IMHO if you are interested in PDP-14 you must also be interested in early Modicon PLC's, which were far more common, predate the PDP-14, used core memory like the PDP-14, and which the PDP-14 was pretty much a clone of. I think Modicon was also a Massachusets company like DEC. > The cool thing about MODICON is that a simple protocol that they devised has been widely implemented. It has become a least common denominator language for communication between devices and controllers. -chuck From trixter at oldskool.org Fri Oct 2 21:13:10 2009 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Fri, 02 Oct 2009 21:13:10 -0500 Subject: XTIDE controller now available Message-ID: <4AC6B336.6010501@oldskool.org> I wanted to let all of you know that the 2nd revision of my friend's PC/XT IDE controller is now available. For those of you not in the know, this is a way of using modern IDE hard drives in your 8bit PC or XT system. Works with drives up to 137G (your O/S also has to support it; 8.4G is way more common) and Compact Flash->IDE controllers too. CD-ROM support is likely coming eventually, but he has to write an entire driver that MSCDEX would talk to. They're being sold at cost: $30 for a kit to solder your own, $40 for a pre-built and tested card. These are not quite the end production unit, but darn close. Works in PC/XT clones, as well as Tandy 1000 series machines (anyone who knows how hard it is to get an IDE drive into a Tandy will appreciate this). They are also going to be building one that will fit into a PCjr sidecar someday. ;) Details are available on the last message of this forum page: http://www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum/showthread.php?t=12359&page=109 -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From ploopster at gmail.com Sat Oct 3 01:13:19 2009 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sat, 03 Oct 2009 02:13:19 -0400 Subject: Classic computers endangered! In-Reply-To: <20091002060322.GA20012@Update.UU.SE> References: <4AC51C23.5080905@snarc.net> <20091002060322.GA20012@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <4AC6EB7F.5080701@gmail.com> Pontus Pihlgren wrote: >> There are 15(-ish) computer museums just in the U.S.A. > > Not to mention the technical museums that does not focus on computers > but have large collections. For instance a Cray-1 is on exibit in the > Stockholm technical museum and there is a _very_ nice setup of a Cray-2 > in the Musee des Arts et Metiers in Paris. Doesn't the National Museum of American History keep a sizeable collection too? Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Sat Oct 3 01:25:42 2009 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sat, 03 Oct 2009 02:25:42 -0400 Subject: XTIDE controller now available In-Reply-To: <4AC6B336.6010501@oldskool.org> References: <4AC6B336.6010501@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <4AC6EE66.8070004@gmail.com> Jim Leonard wrote: > They're being sold at cost: $30 for a kit to solder your own, $40 for a > pre-built and tested card. Is $40 for assembled-by-hand or wave-soldered? Peace... Sridhar From teoz at neo.rr.com Sat Oct 3 01:42:07 2009 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sat, 3 Oct 2009 02:42:07 -0400 Subject: Classic computers endangered! References: <4AC51C23.5080905@snarc.net><20091002060322.GA20012@Update.UU.SE> <4AC6EB7F.5080701@gmail.com> Message-ID: <0D3624A7D94642C09E7E7CCF1C7EBDFA@dell8300> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sridhar Ayengar" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Saturday, October 03, 2009 2:13 AM Subject: Re: Classic computers endangered! > Pontus Pihlgren wrote: >>> There are 15(-ish) computer museums just in the U.S.A. >> >> Not to mention the technical museums that does not focus on computers but >> have large collections. For instance a Cray-1 is on exibit in the >> Stockholm technical museum and there is a _very_ nice setup of a Cray-2 >> in the Musee des Arts et Metiers in Paris. > > Doesn't the National Museum of American History keep a sizeable collection > too? > > Peace... Sridhar Keeping machines is good, archiving the software, operating manuals, and production documentation is better, but having people around that can actually use those resources to keep those machines running (understanding how they work and fixing them as needed with spare parts) would be the best. How many museums actually have people working there that can do anything outside of stack, catalog, prop up items, and dust them? Cars basically operate today like they did in the 1920's , but computers from the 50's are nothing like today's machines (input/output/construction) so it would be harder to get them setup and running. From teoz at neo.rr.com Sat Oct 3 01:46:39 2009 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sat, 3 Oct 2009 02:46:39 -0400 Subject: XTIDE controller now available References: <4AC6B336.6010501@oldskool.org> <4AC6EE66.8070004@gmail.com> Message-ID: <0B113CD3AE4A4ECFA7FE72D7CB29C306@dell8300> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sridhar Ayengar" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Saturday, October 03, 2009 2:25 AM Subject: Re: XTIDE controller now available > Jim Leonard wrote: >> They're being sold at cost: $30 for a kit to solder your own, $40 for a >> pre-built and tested card. > > Is $40 for assembled-by-hand or wave-soldered? > > Peace... Sridhar Hand soldered from reading that thread, not that many boards available from the looks of it (or parts). I think he recommended you buy the kit so you don't complain about his soldering skills. Sooner or later I will probably get one for my Tandy 1000 desktop when I can figure out how to make a frame for a HD and mount one on the card (like a hardcard). For now the MFM drive and card I stuck into my XT clone will work. From teoz at neo.rr.com Sat Oct 3 02:42:34 2009 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sat, 3 Oct 2009 03:42:34 -0400 Subject: 8MM Tape drives Message-ID: <7B1EE7221F1A4893ACE02A1817060DCD@dell8300> I hit the local recycler today and purchased a few tapes drives. Snagged a DDS3 external, DDS4 external, and a cool looking IBM drive that I was hoping might have been AIX. Turns out its an 8MM Mammoth 20/40GB drive (looks like ebay #290335147769). The drive had a couple AS/400 stickers on it and appears to be HVD (with terminator attached on the back). Are these drives pretty decent, reliable, and fast? I don't have any experience with them and grabbed it because I like collecting any kind of removable media drive I don't have. Turned it on (fan must be moving quite a bit of air by the sound of it) and the LCD went through diagnostics and then to a ready state with no tape so I assume its not DOA so far. Just curious what you guys think before I go looking for tapes and a cable to connect it to a HVD 68 pin card in my SUN U5. I assume Solaris 8 might know what to do with this thing, or PC backup software will work with it. From nico at farumdata.dk Sat Oct 3 05:39:29 2009 From: nico at farumdata.dk (Nico de Jong) Date: Sat, 3 Oct 2009 12:39:29 +0200 Subject: 8MM Tape drives References: <7B1EE7221F1A4893ACE02A1817060DCD@dell8300> Message-ID: <74AB2DEC4FBC4CE78D5CDD0467BACDA3@udvikling> Subject: 8MM Tape drives I hit the local recycler today and purchased a few tapes drives. Snagged a DDS3 external, DDS4 external, and a cool looking IBM drive that I was hoping might have been AIX. Turns out its an 8MM Mammoth 20/40GB drive (looks like ebay #290335147769). The drive had a couple AS/400 stickers on it and appears to be HVD (with terminator attached on the back). Are these drives pretty decent, reliable, and fast? I don't have any experience with them and grabbed it because I like collecting any kind of removable media drive I don't have. Turned it on (fan must be moving quite a bit of air by the sound of it) and the LCD went through diagnostics and then to a ready state with no tape so I assume its not DOA so far. Just curious what you guys think before I go looking for tapes and a cable to connect it to a HVD 68 pin card in my SUN U5. I assume Solaris 8 might know what to do with this thing, or PC backup software will work with it. >From my experience in media conversion, I can tell you that Exabyte drives are very stable indeed. I only use SE drives, but that should not have any influence on my answer. 4 mm drives (DDS3...) are based on the same experience a PITA. I once had a drive pulling the tape out of the cassette and wrap it around the motor. the customer was not very pleased, as it was to be used as evidence in a fraud case. Nico From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Sat Oct 3 08:56:05 2009 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Sat, 03 Oct 2009 08:56:05 -0500 Subject: XTIDE controller now available In-Reply-To: <4AC6B336.6010501@oldskool.org> References: <4AC6B336.6010501@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <4AC757F5.7020101@brutman.com> Jim Leonard wrote: > I wanted to let all of you know that the 2nd revision of my friend's > PC/XT IDE controller is now available. For those of you not in the > know, this is a way of using modern IDE hard drives in your 8bit PC or > XT system. Works with drives up to 137G (your O/S also has to support > it; 8.4G is way more common) and Compact Flash->IDE controllers too. > CD-ROM support is likely coming eventually, but he has to write an > entire driver that MSCDEX would talk to. > > They're being sold at cost: $30 for a kit to solder your own, $40 for a > pre-built and tested card. > > These are not quite the end production unit, but darn close. Works in > PC/XT clones, as well as Tandy 1000 series machines (anyone who knows > how hard it is to get an IDE drive into a Tandy will appreciate this). > They are also going to be building one that will fit into a PCjr sidecar > someday. ;) > > Details are available on the last message of this forum page: > http://www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum/showthread.php?t=12359&page=109 Just to clarify, this is a first run of the second revision cards. They are limited in supply, and we are probably sending them to people who did testing with the first round. So most of them will be spoken for. For the privilege of having an early card, you've got to do some hard core testing. We have found very few drives that refuse to work, but they are out there. The BIOS is still being debugged, especially with the earlier/smaller LBA drives. I think it's a little early to say they are being sold yet .. I'd check back on that thread in about two months to see how testing has gone, and to wait for the next batch of pc boards to be made up. Early samples of this kit work already so it's not a bad bet, but it's not production quality yet either. (I'm intimately involved in this project - I did the trace optimization for this last batch of cards, and helped with the early design.) Mike From jbglaw at lug-owl.de Sat Oct 3 09:31:13 2009 From: jbglaw at lug-owl.de (Jan-Benedict Glaw) Date: Sat, 3 Oct 2009 16:31:13 +0200 Subject: manx is dead? In-Reply-To: <4ABE6B39.3070806@bitsavers.org> References: <4ABE6B39.3070806@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <20091003143112.GA10875@lug-owl.de> On Sat, 2009-09-26 12:27:53 -0700, Al Kossow wrote: > > http://vt100.net/manx/ Manx is back for now. And dumps are about to be prepared soon, see http://hisdeedsaredust.com/2009/09/manx-is-dead/#comments (at the bottom). MfG, JBG -- Jan-Benedict Glaw jbglaw at lug-owl.de +49-172-7608481 Signature of: Lauf nicht vor Deinem Gl?ck davon: the second : Es k?nnte hinter Dir stehen! From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Oct 3 09:41:43 2009 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 03 Oct 2009 07:41:43 -0700 Subject: 8MM Tape drives In-Reply-To: <74AB2DEC4FBC4CE78D5CDD0467BACDA3@udvikling> References: <7B1EE7221F1A4893ACE02A1817060DCD@dell8300> <74AB2DEC4FBC4CE78D5CDD0467BACDA3@udvikling> Message-ID: <4AC762A7.2090507@bitsavers.org> Nico de Jong wrote: >> From my experience in media conversion, I can tell you that Exabyte >> drives are very stable indeed. 8200's are reaching the end of their useful life. Rather than turning to goo, the pinch rollers crack. From cclist at sydex.com Sat Oct 3 12:23:08 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 03 Oct 2009 10:23:08 -0700 Subject: 8MM Tape drives In-Reply-To: <7B1EE7221F1A4893ACE02A1817060DCD@dell8300> References: <7B1EE7221F1A4893ACE02A1817060DCD@dell8300> Message-ID: <4AC7260C.9730.21784C@cclist.sydex.com> On 3 Oct 2009 at 3:42, Teo Zenios wrote: > I hit the local recycler today and purchased a few tapes drives. > Snagged a DDS3 external, DDS4 external, and a cool looking IBM drive > that I was hoping might have been AIX. Turns out its an 8MM Mammoth > 20/40GB drive (looks like ebay #290335147769). The drive had a couple > AS/400 stickers on it and appears to be HVD (with terminator attached > on the back). Are these drives pretty decent, reliable, and fast? After having supported a bunch of government customers using various tape media for about a decade or so, my recommendation usually was: DLT is better than 8mm is better than DDS is better than QIC (With floppy-tape and Travan included in that last classification). A big problem with QIC is that cartridges left too long often have interaction between the (decaying) tension band and the oxide coating. If the dead tension band doesn't get you, then the chance that it peeled off a layer of oxide will. DDS, let's face it, is basically an audio tape standard, with inexpensive cartridges its key feature. I've got a stack of drives here of various makes and flavors and have never found it to be particularly reliable. I put it above QIC because almost all drives do read-after-write verification. 8mm (Exabyte) is based on the video cartridge, again with cartridge cost in mind. Because the tape is larger than the 4mm DDS and that a single manufacturer produced the drives, it tends to be better. Later drives do better than earlier ones, even on tapes recorded with earlier drives. For example, if you have a tape recorded on an 8200, you'll get better results reading it on an 8700, rather than an 8200. DLT is pretty good--good enough for many manufacturers, including IBM to brand their drives and put them on their servers. Initially, it was hugely expensive, but used drives are cheap and the shelf life of the media is pretty good. In comparison to the preceding categories, it can be very fast. FWIW, today I keep my critical short-term backups on USB flash. I make multiple copies and stash them where the dog won't find them. Storage conditions matter a lot. I recently took a stack of DC1000 carts I'd recorded back in the 80's (Irwin floppy-tape drive) and every one read perfectly. My wife was cleaning out the safety deposit box at our bank last month and came back with a stack of DC6250 tapes that I had forgotten about. I expect that they'll also have survived well. On the other hand, I have a couple of Datasonix Pereos carts that I'm not even going to bother with. They weren't reliable when they were new and I don't expect that age has improved them. Best regards, Chuck From nico at farumdata.dk Sat Oct 3 12:35:23 2009 From: nico at farumdata.dk (Nico de Jong) Date: Sat, 3 Oct 2009 19:35:23 +0200 Subject: 8MM Tape drives References: <7B1EE7221F1A4893ACE02A1817060DCD@dell8300> <74AB2DEC4FBC4CE78D5CDD0467BACDA3@udvikling> <4AC762A7.2090507@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Al Kossow" To: ; "Discussion at mxscan01.zitechnet.dk:On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Saturday, October 03, 2009 4:41 PM Subject: Re: 8MM Tape drives > Nico de Jong wrote: > >>> From my experience in media conversion, I can tell you that Exabyte >>> drives are very stable indeed. > > 8200's are reaching the end of their useful life. Rather than turning to > goo, the pinch rollers crack. > > I havnt seen that yet; a 8200 from 1990 is still in occasional service. Nico From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Sat Oct 3 12:36:15 2009 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Sat, 3 Oct 2009 10:36:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: =?utf-8?B?UmU6IEJsZXRjaGxleSBQYXJrIGVhcm5zIGZpcnN0IGV2ZXIgbG90dGVyeSBn?= =?utf-8?B?cmFudCDigKIgVGhlIFJlZ2lzdGVy?= In-Reply-To: <4AC39148.2040503@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <813428.86721.qm@web23408.mail.ird.yahoo.com> That's great news. It's just a shame they couldn't even get one picture related to the article and instead the page is covered with advertising :( Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk --- On Wed, 30/9/09, Dave Woyciesjes wrote: From: Dave Woyciesjes Subject: Bletchley Park earns first ever lottery grant ? The Register To: "ClassicCMP" Date: Wednesday, 30 September, 2009, 6:11 PM http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/09/29/bletchley_park_lottery_grant/ -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- ICQ# 905818 --- AIM - woyciesjes --- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech - http://certification.comptia.org/ --- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst - http://www.ThinkHDI.com/ "From there to here, >From here to there, Funny things are everywhere." --- Dr. Seuss From nico at farumdata.dk Sat Oct 3 12:39:18 2009 From: nico at farumdata.dk (Nico de Jong) Date: Sat, 3 Oct 2009 19:39:18 +0200 Subject: 8MM Tape drives References: <7B1EE7221F1A4893ACE02A1817060DCD@dell8300> <4AC7260C.9730.21784C@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <19039DEF5987405A9A443E55A9154FA2@udvikling> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chuck Guzis" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Saturday, October 03, 2009 7:23 PM Subject: Re: 8MM Tape drives > On 3 Oct 2009 at 3:42, Teo Zenios wrote: > >> I hit the local recycler today and purchased a few tapes drives. >> Snagged a DDS3 external, DDS4 external, and a cool looking IBM drive >> that I was hoping might have been AIX. Turns out its an 8MM Mammoth >> 20/40GB drive (looks like ebay #290335147769). The drive had a couple >> AS/400 stickers on it and appears to be HVD (with terminator attached >> on the back). Are these drives pretty decent, reliable, and fast? > > After having supported a bunch of government customers using various > tape media for about a decade or so, my recommendation usually was: > > DLT is better than > 8mm is better than > DDS is better than > QIC > > (With floppy-tape and Travan included in that last classification). I beg to differ. My list says - DLT - - QIC and 8 mm - 3480/3490 - DDS - (long pause) - floppy tape / Travan (QIC-80) Just the principle of writing a tape through the floppy interface, disgusts me. Formatting a tape takes a very long time; ISTR about an hour. Must have been invented by the devil. Nico From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Oct 3 12:46:53 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 3 Oct 2009 13:46:53 -0400 Subject: 8MM Tape drives In-Reply-To: <19039DEF5987405A9A443E55A9154FA2@udvikling> References: <7B1EE7221F1A4893ACE02A1817060DCD@dell8300> <4AC7260C.9730.21784C@cclist.sydex.com> <19039DEF5987405A9A443E55A9154FA2@udvikling> Message-ID: On Oct 3, 2009, at 1:39 PM, Nico de Jong wrote: >> After having supported a bunch of government customers using various >> tape media for about a decade or so, my recommendation usually was: >> >> DLT is better than >> 8mm is better than >> DDS is better than >> QIC >> >> (With floppy-tape and Travan included in that last classification). > > I beg to differ. > My list says > - DLT - > - QIC and 8 mm > - 3480/3490 > - DDS > - (long pause) > - floppy tape / Travan (QIC-80) Well, as long as we're doing it, here's my list: - DLT - 9-track - 3480 - QIC-150 .... - 8mm .... .... .... - 4mm > Just the principle of writing a tape through the floppy interface, > disgusts me. Formatting a tape takes a very long time; ISTR about > an hour. Must have been invented by the devil. I agree 100%. I've never used those things...recognized it as a Bad Idea right off the bat and avoided them altogether. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From emu at e-bbes.com Sat Oct 3 12:53:00 2009 From: emu at e-bbes.com (e.stiebler) Date: Sat, 03 Oct 2009 11:53:00 -0600 Subject: 8MM Tape drives In-Reply-To: <19039DEF5987405A9A443E55A9154FA2@udvikling> References: <7B1EE7221F1A4893ACE02A1817060DCD@dell8300> <4AC7260C.9730.21784C@cclist.sydex.com> <19039DEF5987405A9A443E55A9154FA2@udvikling> Message-ID: <4AC78F7C.6080306@e-bbes.com> Nico de Jong wrote: > Just the principle of writing a tape through the floppy interface, > disgusts me. Formatting a tape takes a very long time; ISTR about an > hour. Must have been invented by the devil. No. By somebody who gets paid by the hour ;-) From cclist at sydex.com Sat Oct 3 13:20:01 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 03 Oct 2009 11:20:01 -0700 Subject: 8MM Tape drives In-Reply-To: <19039DEF5987405A9A443E55A9154FA2@udvikling> References: <7B1EE7221F1A4893ACE02A1817060DCD@dell8300>, <19039DEF5987405A9A443E55A9154FA2@udvikling> Message-ID: <4AC73361.31780.558A9E@cclist.sydex.com> On 3 Oct 2009 at 19:39, Nico de Jong wrote: > Just the principle of writing a tape through the floppy interface, > disgusts me. Formatting a tape takes a very long time; ISTR about an > hour. Must have been invented by the devil. I suppose where we diverge is on the long-term stability of QIC. I've seen my share of very old QIC (>20 years) and can't say that I'd put it as high as you do. 1/2" tape is okay, as long as it isn't one of those awful brands that shed like crazy. Aside from 1/2" tape, the oldest reliable storage medium I have is 8" floppy--and various paper products. Wasn't floppy tape invented by Cipher? The 525 is about the oldest floppy tape drive that I know of (still have one sealed in its original packaging). So Cipher = Devil? :) --Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Oct 3 18:53:22 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 3 Oct 2009 19:53:22 -0400 Subject: manx is dead? In-Reply-To: <20091003143112.GA10875@lug-owl.de> References: <4ABE6B39.3070806@bitsavers.org> <20091003143112.GA10875@lug-owl.de> Message-ID: <7F6D0438-8935-4B7E-8B41-4EFB5D1DC7E2@neurotica.com> On Oct 3, 2009, at 10:31 AM, Jan-Benedict Glaw wrote: >> http://vt100.net/manx/ > > Manx is back for now. And dumps are about to be prepared soon, see > http://hisdeedsaredust.com/2009/09/manx-is-dead/#comments (at the > bottom). Whew, this is a huge relief! > -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Sat Oct 3 20:19:17 2009 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Sat, 03 Oct 2009 18:19:17 -0700 Subject: Help identifying unknown Mac SE accelerator Message-ID: <4AC7F815.8050106@mail.msu.edu> Scrounged a Mac SE motherboard+accelerator from a parts bin at RE-PC this afternoon and I'm trying to figure out what it is. Unfortunately it looks like a few parts have been scavenged (a crystal oscillator and a few chips, plus the 68030+FPU) and there's a loose wire on the underside. I can't find any markings that give away its identity. I have a few pictures up at http://yahozna.dyndns.org/scratch/mysterymac/. Anyone have any ideas? Thanks, Josh From rborsuk at colourfull.com Sat Oct 3 21:32:20 2009 From: rborsuk at colourfull.com (Robert Borsuk) Date: Sat, 3 Oct 2009 22:32:20 -0400 Subject: Help identifying unknown Mac SE accelerator In-Reply-To: <4AC7F815.8050106@mail.msu.edu> References: <4AC7F815.8050106@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <2C3B80E8-3802-4249-9D4C-F2B4A9181445@colourfull.com> On Oct 3, 2009, at 9:19 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > Scrounged a Mac SE motherboard+accelerator from a parts bin at RE-PC > this afternoon and I'm trying to figure out what it is. > Unfortunately it looks like a few parts have been scavenged (a > crystal oscillator and a few chips, plus the 68030+FPU) and there's > a loose wire on the underside. > > I can't find any markings that give away its identity. I have a few > pictures up at http://yahozna.dyndns.org/scratch/mysterymac/. > Anyone have any ideas? > > Thanks, > Josh Could be a Novy Systems board. I know they made Mac SE accelerators. Rob Rob Borsuk email: rborsuk at colourfull.com Colourfull Creations Web: http://www.colourfull.com From ploopster at gmail.com Sat Oct 3 21:41:54 2009 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sat, 03 Oct 2009 22:41:54 -0400 Subject: 8MM Tape drives In-Reply-To: <74AB2DEC4FBC4CE78D5CDD0467BACDA3@udvikling> References: <7B1EE7221F1A4893ACE02A1817060DCD@dell8300> <74AB2DEC4FBC4CE78D5CDD0467BACDA3@udvikling> Message-ID: <4AC80B72.3020603@gmail.com> Nico de Jong wrote: > Subject: 8MM Tape drives > > > I hit the local recycler today and purchased a few tapes drives. Snagged > a DDS3 external, DDS4 external, and a cool looking IBM drive that I was > hoping might have been AIX. Turns out its an 8MM Mammoth 20/40GB drive > (looks like ebay #290335147769). The drive had a couple AS/400 stickers > on it and appears to be HVD (with terminator attached on the back). Are > these drives pretty decent, reliable, and fast? I don't have any > experience with them and grabbed it because I like collecting any kind > of removable media drive I don't have. Turned it on (fan must be moving > quite a bit of air by the sound of it) and the LCD went through > diagnostics and then to a ready state with no tape so I assume its not > DOA so far. Just curious what you guys think before I go looking for > tapes and a cable to connect it to a HVD 68 pin card in my SUN U5. I > assume Solaris 8 might know what to do with this thing, or PC backup > software will work with it. The Exabyte Mammoth is a decent drive. Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Sat Oct 3 21:50:02 2009 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sat, 03 Oct 2009 22:50:02 -0400 Subject: 8MM Tape drives In-Reply-To: <19039DEF5987405A9A443E55A9154FA2@udvikling> References: <7B1EE7221F1A4893ACE02A1817060DCD@dell8300> <4AC7260C.9730.21784C@cclist.sydex.com> <19039DEF5987405A9A443E55A9154FA2@udvikling> Message-ID: <4AC80D5A.30507@gmail.com> Nico de Jong wrote: > I beg to differ. > My list says > - DLT - > - QIC and 8 mm > - 3480/3490 > - DDS > - (long pause) > - floppy tape / Travan (QIC-80) > Just the principle of writing a tape through the floppy interface, > disgusts me. Formatting a tape takes a very long time; ISTR about an > hour. Must have been invented by the devil. I have many hundreds of gig stored on 3480 without problem. Peace... Sridhar From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sat Oct 3 23:39:48 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun, 4 Oct 2009 00:39:48 -0400 Subject: Classic computers endangered! In-Reply-To: <4AC6EB7F.5080701@gmail.com> References: <4AC51C23.5080905@snarc.net> <20091002060322.GA20012@Update.UU.SE> <4AC6EB7F.5080701@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Oct 3, 2009 at 2:13 AM, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Pontus Pihlgren wrote: >>> >>> There are 15(-ish) computer museums just in the U.S.A. >> >> Not to mention the technical museums that does not focus on computers but >> have large collections... > > Doesn't the National Museum of American History keep a sizeable collection > too? There was the last three times I visited the place, admittedly more than 5 years ago now. I was amused by the fact that several of the items they chose to display were also items I happened to own (not the Apple I, though ;-) ISTR an 18-bit DEC machine - perhaps a PDP-15? - off in a corner after the first ramp or two. -ethan From mnusa2 at hotmail.com Sun Oct 4 07:04:56 2009 From: mnusa2 at hotmail.com (Matti Nummi) Date: Sun, 4 Oct 2009 15:04:56 +0300 Subject: DEC and HP hardware to go in Europe Message-ID: Hi All, Due to most of my interest in Motorola MVME Unix computers I have several workstations and misc hardware to go from eating my space. Fortunatelly there is no deadline. My location is Helsinki/Finland/Europe. All at cost of shipping and packaging. Bids are welcome. If there is enough interest I could make a Central European drive and deliver door to door but I would like to have some costs covered. Please email Your interests directly to me: mnusa2 at hotmail dot com. I can provide more information and possible pictures if needed. Everything is within my arm's reach but shifting equipment may take awhile. General disclaimer: when cost only, no promises, no guarantee, everything as is. If you pay for it, money back if DOA (excluding shipping costs). I will ship also to USA but shipping costs will be high. Decstation 3100 complete - color monitor - mouse + keyboard - cpu + 2 disk boxes + 1 tk50 box + tk50 cleaning kit - 24 MB RAM - OSF/1 installed and running - OSF/1 tapes + images - some read errors though - full working condition - monitor cable has some problems - looses some colors occasionally DEC MicroVAX 4000 - 200 in two BA440 cabinets ( I presume) - Configuration and condition unknown Several HP 9000/715 workstations - base units only - some extra RAM available - most in working condition - 80s, 50s, 75s - Some HIL keyboards - Keyboard/Mouse boxes for 715/80 HP X-stations - 700s 5-6 pcs MISC HW (unknown condition, presumed working) - Decstation 2100 base unit probably with 3100 motherboard - DEC Storage Expansion box 1 - DEC Storage Expansion box 2 - DEC Storage Expansion box 3 - Decstation 5000/200 base unit - Decstation 5000/200 base unit - Decstation 5000/260 base unit - 2 pcs HP9144 - HP9142 - HP 9000/385 - HP 7959S - HP 382 Controller - A1474A Monitors (Unknown condition) - DEC VRT17HA DEC 17" Color Monitor - not working - DEC 2E-VR299 - DEC VR320 - HP 98798A - HP A2094 - SUN GDM-17E10 BR, Matti _________________________________________________________________ Windows puhelimella saat enemm?n vastinetta rahoillesi. http://www.windowsmobile.fi From nico at farumdata.dk Sun Oct 4 08:10:54 2009 From: nico at farumdata.dk (Nico de Jong) Date: Sun, 4 Oct 2009 15:10:54 +0200 Subject: 8MM Tape drives References: <7B1EE7221F1A4893ACE02A1817060DCD@dell8300>, <19039DEF5987405A9A443E55A9154FA2@udvikling> <4AC73361.31780.558A9E@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <3224507DED13485F9E4FC89980D8D6D6@udvikling> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chuck Guzis" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Saturday, October 03, 2009 8:20 PM Subject: Re: 8MM Tape drives > On 3 Oct 2009 at 19:39, Nico de Jong wrote: > >> Just the principle of writing a tape through the floppy interface, >> disgusts me. Formatting a tape takes a very long time; ISTR about an >> hour. Must have been invented by the devil. > > I suppose where we diverge is on the long-term stability of QIC. > I've seen my share of very old QIC (>20 years) and can't say that I'd > put it as high as you do. 1/2" tape is okay, as long as it isn't one > of those awful brands that shed like crazy. > > Aside from 1/2" tape, the oldest reliable storage medium I have is 8" > floppy--and various paper products. > > Wasn't floppy tape invented by Cipher? The 525 is about the oldest > floppy tape drive that I know of (still have one sealed in its > original packaging). > I'm not very much in reading very old stuff, so you can be right on that point. 1/2" tapes is also one of my favorites, normally. I recently had a job for the UN, where I had to read some 60-70 tapes originating from west africa. And they hadn't bee stored correctly. Some of the tapes had mould on them, and one had mould from the outside and about half an inch inwards (mould on the "sides" of the tape). Some also stitched, so I had quite a job reading all of them. The oldest floppy tape product I've seen, is the MicroSolutions BackPack. I believe it is from the late 80's. They also had a QIC-80 product. Horrible system. Don't know about Cipher. Nico From legalize at xmission.com Sun Oct 4 10:49:34 2009 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 04 Oct 2009 09:49:34 -0600 Subject: manx is dead? In-Reply-To: Your message of Sat, 03 Oct 2009 16:31:13 +0200. <20091003143112.GA10875@lug-owl.de> Message-ID: In article <20091003143112.GA10875 at lug-owl.de>, Jan-Benedict Glaw writes: > On Sat, 2009-09-26 12:27:53 -0700, Al Kossow wrote: > > > > http://vt100.net/manx/ > > Manx is back for now. And dumps are about to be prepared soon, see > http://hisdeedsaredust.com/2009/09/manx-is-dead/#comments (at the > bottom). I suggest that we begin discussions of recreating manx on a server somewhere, perhaps on Jay's server space he has kindly offered? Let's make an open source project (github?) for the software that drives the database so that we can add decentralized editing. I think one thing that held Paul back was that all edits had to go through him and were done manually. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Oct 4 11:38:38 2009 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 04 Oct 2009 09:38:38 -0700 Subject: DEC and HP hardware to go in Europe In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4AC8CF8E.8000900@bitsavers.org> Matti Nummi wrote: > - HP 382 Controller - A1474A > I've been playing with one of these for HPIB disk data recovery. 040, Very nice, compact box, HP-HIL, VGA monitor connector. Ethernet cards seem hard to find (has a DIO slot, though). http://www.hpmuseum.net/display_item.php?hw=206 From cclist at sydex.com Sun Oct 4 13:20:51 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 04 Oct 2009 11:20:51 -0700 Subject: 8MM Tape drives In-Reply-To: <3224507DED13485F9E4FC89980D8D6D6@udvikling> References: <7B1EE7221F1A4893ACE02A1817060DCD@dell8300>, <3224507DED13485F9E4FC89980D8D6D6@udvikling> Message-ID: <4AC88513.27859.57CA8B6@cclist.sydex.com> On 4 Oct 2009 at 15:10, Nico de Jong wrote: > The oldest floppy tape product I've seen, is the MicroSolutions > BackPack. I believe it is from the late 80's. They also had a QIC-80 > product. Horrible system. Don't know about Cipher. The Cipher 525 documentation on Bitsavers indicates 1984. It came in two flavors--an SA850 (8") interface and an SA450 (5.25") interface. The recording medium was DC600A carts. As a lower-cost alternative to a standard QIC-02 interface drive, it wasn't a horrible implementation. I think things started going downhill when the minicart (DC-2000) drives were introduced and efforts to pack ever- increasing amounts of data on a limited medium were mounted with questionable success. --Chuck From jbglaw at lug-owl.de Sun Oct 4 14:17:30 2009 From: jbglaw at lug-owl.de (Jan-Benedict Glaw) Date: Sun, 4 Oct 2009 21:17:30 +0200 Subject: manx is dead? In-Reply-To: References: <20091003143112.GA10875@lug-owl.de> Message-ID: <20091004191730.GB10875@lug-owl.de> On Sun, 2009-10-04 09:49:34 -0600, Richard wrote: > Jan-Benedict Glaw writes: > > On Sat, 2009-09-26 12:27:53 -0700, Al Kossow wrote: > > > > > > http://vt100.net/manx/ > > > > Manx is back for now. And dumps are about to be prepared soon, see > > http://hisdeedsaredust.com/2009/09/manx-is-dead/#comments (at the > > bottom). > > I suggest that we begin discussions of recreating manx on a server > somewhere, perhaps on Jay's server space he has kindly offered? Sure, we'd do. I hope to see new DB dumps and will look at those once they show up. Maybe it's not even all that hard. Some years ago, I've had a look at software to manage collections, some had specific support for books. Maybe these are quite mature by now... I'll have another look at those. > Let's make an open source project (github?) for the software that > drives the database so that we can add decentralized editing. I think > one thing that held Paul back was that all edits had to go through him > and were done manually. GIT would be nice. I'd prefer it over everything else :) MfG, JBG -- Jan-Benedict Glaw jbglaw at lug-owl.de +49-172-7608481 Signature of: Zensur im Internet? Nein danke! the second : From jbglaw at lug-owl.de Sun Oct 4 14:20:46 2009 From: jbglaw at lug-owl.de (Jan-Benedict Glaw) Date: Sun, 4 Oct 2009 21:20:46 +0200 Subject: manx is dead? In-Reply-To: <4AC3BBA9.7020204@bitsavers.org> References: <20090930135030.GO22865@lug-owl.de> <20090930181407.GR22865@lug-owl.de> <4AC3BBA9.7020204@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <20091004192046.GC10875@lug-owl.de> On Wed, 2009-09-30 13:12:25 -0700, Al Kossow wrote: > Jan-Benedict Glaw wrote: > > They surely could OCR scanned PDFs, but I'm not sure if they > > will do that. > > I can assure you that they HAVE been doing that on bitsavers > content for over a year. That was one of the reasons I decided > to start converting the content. People were contacting me wondering > why the OCRed version wasn't on line. Maybe the current workflow for creating the PDFs on bitsavers.org could be a bit better documented? The docs over there only mention the simple conversion via thumble. It's latest NEWS update is dated 20031209, so quite aged, too. I guess that parts of the workflow are different these days? MfG, JBG -- Jan-Benedict Glaw jbglaw at lug-owl.de +49-172-7608481 Signature of: The real problem with C++ for kernel modules is: the second : the language just sucks. -- Linus Torvalds From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Sun Oct 4 15:05:24 2009 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Sun, 4 Oct 2009 22:05:24 +0200 Subject: DEC and HP hardware to go in Europe In-Reply-To: <4AC8CF8E.8000900@bitsavers.org> References: <4AC8CF8E.8000900@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: So it works ? -Rik > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Namens Al Kossow > Verzonden: zondag 4 oktober 2009 18:39 > Aan: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Onderwerp: Re: DEC and HP hardware to go in Europe > > Matti Nummi wrote: > > > - HP 382 Controller - A1474A > > > > I've been playing with one of these for HPIB disk data recovery. > 040, Very nice, compact box, HP-HIL, VGA monitor connector. > Ethernet cards seem hard to find (has a DIO slot, though). > > http://www.hpmuseum.net/display_item.php?hw=206 > > > From jbglaw at lug-owl.de Sun Oct 4 15:40:15 2009 From: jbglaw at lug-owl.de (Jan-Benedict Glaw) Date: Sun, 4 Oct 2009 22:40:15 +0200 Subject: manx is dead? In-Reply-To: <20091004192046.GC10875@lug-owl.de> References: <20090930135030.GO22865@lug-owl.de> <20090930181407.GR22865@lug-owl.de> <4AC3BBA9.7020204@bitsavers.org> <20091004192046.GC10875@lug-owl.de> Message-ID: <20091004204015.GE10875@lug-owl.de> On Sun, 2009-10-04 21:20:46 +0200, Jan-Benedict Glaw wrote: > On Wed, 2009-09-30 13:12:25 -0700, Al Kossow wrote: > > Jan-Benedict Glaw wrote: > > > They surely could OCR scanned PDFs, but I'm not sure if they > > > will do that. > > > > I can assure you that they HAVE been doing that on bitsavers > > content for over a year. That was one of the reasons I decided > > to start converting the content. People were contacting me wondering > > why the OCRed version wasn't on line. > > Maybe the current workflow for creating the PDFs on bitsavers.org > could be a bit better documented? The docs over there only mention the > simple conversion via thumble. It's latest NEWS update is dated > 20031209, so quite aged, too. I guess that parts of the workflow are > different these days? To place it into public discussion, my li'l script (used to cut 2side scans from multi-page TIFFs and make a nice PDF book of that) basically uses `tiffsplit' to create one-page TIFFs, `convert' to conver to .pbm format, `unpaper' to cut (and straighten) out the two book pages per TIFF/PBM page, then use `ocroscript rec-tess --tesslanguage=en ...' to OCR each simgle page and finally use `HocrConverter.py' [1] to assemble single-page straightened TIFF pages and the HOCR scan results to a PDF. All parts of that software stack is in Debian, except the Hocr stuff (for scanning the pages and generate a file that also contains the position of scanned text on the page). MfG, JBG [1] http://xplus3.net/downloads/HocrConverter.gz, linked from http://xplus3.net/2009/04/02/convert-hocr-to-pdf/ -- Jan-Benedict Glaw jbglaw at lug-owl.de +49-172-7608481 Signature of: 23:53 <@jbglaw> So, ich kletter' jetzt mal ins Bett. the second : 23:57 <@jever2> .oO( kletter ..., hat er noch Gitter vorm Bett, wie fr?her meine Kinder?) 00:00 <@jbglaw> jever2: *patsch* 00:01 <@jever2> *aua*, wof?r, Gedanken sind frei! 00:02 <@jbglaw> Nee, freie Gedanken, die sind seit 1984 doch aus! 00:03 <@jever2> 1984? ich bin erst seit 1985 verheiratet! From c.murray.mccullough at gmail.com Fri Oct 2 17:34:30 2009 From: c.murray.mccullough at gmail.com (Murray McCullough) Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2009 18:34:30 -0400 Subject: Message from C. Corti - Classic computers endangered! Message-ID: Message: 7 Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2009 11:00:53 +0200 (CEST) From: Christian Corti Subject: Re: Classic computers endangered! To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Message-ID: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed On Thu, 1 Oct 2009, Richard wrote: > Well, this part is just plain uninfomed: > > "Science museums around the world have long collected computing > kit. But there are only three institutions actively growing > collections of outdated computers and restoring them to working > order: the UK's National Museum of Computing (NMOC) at Bletchley > Park; the Computer History Museum in Silicon Valley; and the Heinz > Nixdorf MuseumsForum (HNF) in Padaborn, Germany." > > Only three? I can name a half-dozen more off the top of my head > without even googling. And at least the HNF does not restore/run their machines, they don't even display them in a logical manner (and it's Paderborn, not Padaborn ;-)) OTOH our little museum has been collecting/restoring etc. for much over ten years now. And of course, almost everything on display is functional (people don't want to see dead junk, they are much more impressed by a demonstration). Christian There are 'many' private and public museums that not only preserve but keep working vintage computers in their collections. Two important ones come to mind:: 1) The First Computer Museum of Nova Scotia. It has Kenbaks which some consider to be the first microcomputer. 2) The Digibarn Computer Museumlocated a shoet distance outside Silicon Valley. Not only does this museum have an excellent collection of vintage machines but has an excellent web site to boot. There are some interested in vintage computers just as some are interested in vintage cars. The numbers are really not that large, in either domain, as far as this observer can determine. Yet we should do all we can to preserve old computing technology. History will thank us! Murray From apw at adrianwise.co.uk Sat Oct 3 02:31:18 2009 From: apw at adrianwise.co.uk (Adrian Wise) Date: Sat, 03 Oct 2009 08:31:18 +0100 Subject: IMP system software In-Reply-To: <4AC5EE96.50201@hachti.de> References: <76E77758-DF45-48E5-A376-DF4EABAA75D8@loomcom.com> (sfid-20090930_142507_081247_3810518B) <4AC4F96C.30004@heeltoe.com> <4887868A-86FE-4250-8C77-B13A63EF9197@loomcom.com> <4AC510E3.6080802@adrianwise.co.uk> <4AC5EE96.50201@hachti.de> Message-ID: <4AC6FDC6.2030803@adrianwise.co.uk> Hi Philip Old age must be creeping up on me since I clearly don't recall correctly! The H316 is 1.6us as you say. Adrian Philipp Hachtmann wrote: > > Adrian Wise wrote: >> The 516 and the 316 are 100% code compatible. > Just wanted to write that... > >> Just the cycle time differs (0.96us for the 516, 1.3us for the 316 IIRC) > Have you tuned up your H316? My machine is running on 1.6us! In that > case I would be glad to get your CPU and memory timing configuration :-) > > (Otherwise it would be an interesting experiment to see if and how much > faster a H316 could be made. I'm quite confident that Honeywell/3C > delivered the machines in a very stable configuration with big reserves > with respect to reliability) > > Best wishes, > > Philipp :-) > From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sat Oct 3 13:52:55 2009 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sat, 3 Oct 2009 11:52:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: XTIDE controller now available In-Reply-To: <4AC6B336.6010501@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <784469.45411.qm@web65508.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> is it asking too much to provide a list of the ic's this board takes? No problem w/soldering in sockets, thereby alleviating the possibility of scorching any chips? I definitely want one. Keep losing my old Acculogic card. --- On Fri, 10/2/09, Jim Leonard wrote: > From: Jim Leonard > Subject: XTIDE controller now available > To: General at mail.mobygames.com, "On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Date: Friday, October 2, 2009, 10:13 PM > I wanted to let all of you know that > the 2nd revision of my friend's PC/XT IDE controller is now > available. For those of you not in the know, this is a > way of using modern IDE hard drives in your 8bit PC or XT > system. Works with drives up to 137G (your O/S also > has to support it; 8.4G is way more common) and Compact > Flash->IDE controllers too. CD-ROM support is likely > coming eventually, but he has to write an entire driver that > MSCDEX would talk to. > > They're being sold at cost: $30 for a kit to solder your > own, $40 for a pre-built and tested card. > > These are not quite the end production unit, but darn > close. Works in > PC/XT clones, as well as Tandy 1000 series machines (anyone > who knows how hard it is to get an IDE drive into a Tandy > will appreciate this). They are also going to be building > one that will fit into a PCjr sidecar someday. ;) > > Details are available on the last message of this forum > page: http://www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum/showthread.php?t=12359&page=109 > -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) > http://www.oldskool.org/ > Help our electronic games project: > http://www.mobygames.com/ > Or check out some trippy MindCandy at > http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ > A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From jws at jwsss.com Sat Oct 3 16:44:39 2009 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Sat, 03 Oct 2009 14:44:39 -0700 Subject: 8MM Tape drives In-Reply-To: <4AC73361.31780.558A9E@cclist.sydex.com> References: <7B1EE7221F1A4893ACE02A1817060DCD@dell8300>, <19039DEF5987405A9A443E55A9154FA2@udvikling> <4AC73361.31780.558A9E@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4AC7C5C7.7020503@jwsss.com> For me, the devices are all failing much earlier than the media. Thanks to some help, my 1/2" media is still readable from 1972 thru 1990. Drives all have developed major servo problems, and sensor problems. I'm not very good at fixing such, so have moved all of the data off that media. Amazingly I had a pile of 8mm tapes and around 1999 or 2000 I decided to read them, and figured I'd have moderate to low success. The only tape out of about 30 that didn't read was one I had marked "partial tape error at end" and saved when I was doing a data recovery, and partial saves might have proven useful. The 8mm sample is only with 5 to 10gb tapes maximum, no experience with higher ones for archival. Agree comment on floppy tape, never bought it, as I always was able to maintain access to 1/2" till I quit using tape and went to online conservation and cd / dvd maintainence of data. Jim Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 3 Oct 2009 at 19:39, Nico de Jong wrote: > > >> Just the principle of writing a tape through the floppy interface, >> disgusts me. Formatting a tape takes a very long time; ISTR about an >> hour. Must have been invented by the devil. >> > > I suppose where we diverge is on the long-term stability of QIC. > I've seen my share of very old QIC (>20 years) and can't say that I'd > put it as high as you do. 1/2" tape is okay, as long as it isn't one > of those awful brands that shed like crazy. > > Aside from 1/2" tape, the oldest reliable storage medium I have is 8" > floppy--and various paper products. > > Wasn't floppy tape invented by Cipher? The 525 is about the oldest > floppy tape drive that I know of (still have one sealed in its > original packaging). > > So Cipher = Devil? :) > > --Chuck > > > From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Oct 4 18:34:56 2009 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 04 Oct 2009 16:34:56 -0700 Subject: manx is dead? In-Reply-To: <20091004192046.GC10875@lug-owl.de> References: <20090930135030.GO22865@lug-owl.de> <20090930181407.GR22865@lug-owl.de> <4AC3BBA9.7020204@bitsavers.org> <20091004192046.GC10875@lug-owl.de> Message-ID: <4AC93120.2040901@bitsavers.org> Jan-Benedict Glaw wrote: > Maybe the current workflow for creating the PDFs on bitsavers.org > could be a bit better documented? The main addition was making an OCR pass over the tumble output with Acrobat Pro. From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Oct 4 18:35:38 2009 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 04 Oct 2009 16:35:38 -0700 Subject: DEC and HP hardware to go in Europe In-Reply-To: References: <4AC8CF8E.8000900@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4AC9314A.2050506@bitsavers.org> Rik Bos wrote: > So it works ? > yes, chugging along happily with 9.10 From useddec at gmail.com Sun Oct 4 19:14:31 2009 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Sun, 4 Oct 2009 19:14:31 -0500 Subject: PDP 14 In-Reply-To: <4AC678D6.8000101@nktelco.net> References: <4AC678D6.8000101@nktelco.net> Message-ID: <624966d60910041714q3a43893bn8c6f80aa2f69c5b9@mail.gmail.com> I worked on one or two in the field back in the '70's, but don't remember very much about system configurations. I don't remmember anything about the main box. I have a VT14 terminal, 14/30's, 14/35's, ICR11, ICR8, ICS11, ICS8, some in quantity. I also have a large quantity of H1600's, H1500's, H1550's, H1650's and their corresponding distributuion panels. I'm taking these numbers from memory so the numbers might be a little off and this list is by no means complete. The documentation for most items is here and I offered it to Al to scan a few years ago, but he has probably forgoten about it now. If anyone has working knowledge of this equipment, please feel free to contact me. On Fri, Oct 2, 2009 at 5:04 PM, Charles H Dickman wrote: > I have never seen one alive, but I have the remains of one: logic unit > boards, miscellaneous generic flip-chips, some I/O boards, etc. > Unfortunately, no backplane. This was the original PDP-14 (Straight-14?). It > was to have a core-rope ROM in the final installation vs. core. I think > there were later versions that had writable program storage. > > Shoppa, Tim wrote: > >> The PDP-14 was not a conventional computer... it was what we call today a >> PLC >> >> (programmable logic controller). Very adaptable to ladder logic and a bit >> more. >> >> > Very primitive, but the right thing for discrete logic control. > > I have some notes about it here: http://www.chdickman.com/pdp14/ > > I think Motorola had a 16pin dip logic unit that did basically the same > thing. > >> DEC was pretty swift in how they allowed the PDP-14 to be configured via a >> real computer (a -11 or -8). It wasn't the GUI of PLC configuration today or >> even of the 80's, but it was a good start. >> >> > The parts I have came from a system that was to have run a stamping press. > In this case, the PDP-14 was basically a discrete I/O adapter for a PDP-8/e. > > >> The overall model of PLC configured or monitored by a computer still holds >> true today, I think that DEC could have really taken this idea and run with >> it but the overlap between industrial control and computers even today is >> less than thorough. The computer geeks don't understand the industrial >> control and process engineers for the most part (thus the common misuse of >> Windows PC's where a PLC could do the job far better and without >> point-and-drool.) >> >> > PLCs to control the process and PCs to monitor the process. I don't know > that I want Vista in charge. It might be only a tool, but that tool might be > very expensive. > >> IMHO if you are interested in PDP-14 you must also be interested in early >> Modicon PLC's, which were far more common, predate the PDP-14, used core >> memory like the PDP-14, and which the PDP-14 was pretty much a clone of. I >> think Modicon was also a Massachusets company like DEC. >> >> > The cool thing about MODICON is that a simple protocol that they devised > has been widely implemented. It has become a least common denominator > language for communication between devices and controllers. > > -chuck > > > > > > > > From snhirsch at gmail.com Sun Oct 4 19:47:46 2009 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Sun, 4 Oct 2009 20:47:46 -0400 (EDT) Subject: XTIDE controller now available In-Reply-To: <4AC6B336.6010501@oldskool.org> References: <4AC6B336.6010501@oldskool.org> Message-ID: On Fri, 2 Oct 2009, Jim Leonard wrote: > I wanted to let all of you know that the 2nd revision of my friend's PC/XT > IDE controller is now available. For those of you not in the know, this is a > way of using modern IDE hard drives in your 8bit PC or XT system. Works with > drives up to 137G (your O/S also has to support it; 8.4G is way more common) > and Compact Flash->IDE controllers too. CD-ROM support is likely coming > eventually, but he has to write an entire driver that MSCDEX would talk to. What am I not understanding about the need for this product? I have about a half-dozen 8-bit ISA IDE controllers, mostly Seagate branded. Didn't think they were particularly rare. Steve -- From jbglaw at lug-owl.de Mon Oct 5 02:56:18 2009 From: jbglaw at lug-owl.de (Jan-Benedict Glaw) Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2009 09:56:18 +0200 Subject: manx is dead? In-Reply-To: <4AC93120.2040901@bitsavers.org> References: <20090930135030.GO22865@lug-owl.de> <20090930181407.GR22865@lug-owl.de> <4AC3BBA9.7020204@bitsavers.org> <20091004192046.GC10875@lug-owl.de> <4AC93120.2040901@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <20091005075617.GF10875@lug-owl.de> On Sun, 2009-10-04 16:34:56 -0700, Al Kossow wrote: > Jan-Benedict Glaw wrote: > > Maybe the current workflow for creating the PDFs on bitsavers.org > > could be a bit better documented? > > The main addition was making an OCR pass over the tumble output with > Acrobat Pro. Oh, so it's a manual step. Based on good scans, I tried to have a stack that could be run unatended, without manual intervention. MfG, JBG -- Jan-Benedict Glaw jbglaw at lug-owl.de +49-172-7608481 Signature of: The course of history shows that as a government grows, liberty the second : decreases." (Thomas Jefferson) From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Oct 5 03:05:52 2009 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 05 Oct 2009 01:05:52 -0700 Subject: PDP 14 In-Reply-To: <624966d60910041714q3a43893bn8c6f80aa2f69c5b9@mail.gmail.com> References: <4AC678D6.8000101@nktelco.net> <624966d60910041714q3a43893bn8c6f80aa2f69c5b9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4AC9A8E0.3050106@bitsavers.org> Paul Anderson wrote: > I worked on one or two in the field back in the '70's, but don't remember > very much about system configurations. I don't remmember anything about the > main box. > > I have a VT14 terminal, 14/30's, 14/35's, ICR11, ICR8, ICS11, ICS8, some in > quantity. I also have a large quantity of H1600's, H1500's, H1550's, H1650's > and their corresponding distributuion panels. I'm taking these numbers from > memory so the numbers might be a little off and this list is by no means > complete. The documentation for most items is here and I offered it to Al > to scan a few years ago, but he has probably forgoten about it now. > yup.. I dug up some information out of the DEC archive at CHM which I put up on bitsavers. > If anyone has working knowledge of this equipment, please feel free to > contact me. > The company I worked for supported 14/30's in the Pabst brewhouse. The main box was downloaded from a high speed serial link from the VT14. It was possible to do ladder-logic development under OS/8 with some software my boss wrote. Internally, the 14/30 was built like an 8/E, even used the 8's memory assy. From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Oct 5 03:09:13 2009 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 05 Oct 2009 01:09:13 -0700 Subject: manx is dead? In-Reply-To: <20091005075617.GF10875@lug-owl.de> References: <20090930135030.GO22865@lug-owl.de> <20090930181407.GR22865@lug-owl.de> <4AC3BBA9.7020204@bitsavers.org> <20091004192046.GC10875@lug-owl.de> <4AC93120.2040901@bitsavers.org> <20091005075617.GF10875@lug-owl.de> Message-ID: <4AC9A9A9.8010007@bitsavers.org> Jan-Benedict Glaw wrote: > Based on good scans, I tried to have a > stack that could be run unatended, without manual intervention. > Acrobat will batch input, that's how i'm dealing with bitsavers. I point it at a local copy of a couple of directories, and go away for a few days. I'm just finishing univac, so I'll switch to the new things to upload for a day or two. From hachti at hachti.de Mon Oct 5 05:15:08 2009 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Mon, 05 Oct 2009 12:15:08 +0200 Subject: RK11-D controller spares available? Message-ID: <4AC9C72C.9000207@hachti.de> Hi folks, does anybody have a spare M7256 board for the RK11-D controller? And/or a backplane for it? If I find both, I'll have a complete controller... Best wishes, Philipp -- http://www.hachti.de From afra at aurigae.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 5 05:25:08 2009 From: afra at aurigae.demon.co.uk (afra at aurigae.demon.co.uk) Date: Mon, 05 Oct 2009 11:25:08 +0100 Subject: XTIDE controller now available In-Reply-To: References: <4AC6B336.6010501@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <20091005112508.15865qlsefvcls3k@aurigae.demon.co.uk> Quoting Steven Hirsch : > On Fri, 2 Oct 2009, Jim Leonard wrote: > >> I wanted to let all of you know that the 2nd revision of my >> friend's PC/XT IDE controller is now available. For those of you >> not in the know, this is a way of using modern IDE hard drives in >> your 8bit PC or XT system. Works with drives up to 137G (your O/S >> also has to support it; 8.4G is way more common) and Compact >> Flash->IDE controllers too. CD-ROM support is likely coming >> eventually, but he has to write an entire driver that MSCDEX would >> talk to. > > What am I not understanding about the need for this product? I have > about a half-dozen 8-bit ISA IDE controllers, mostly Seagate > branded. Didn't think they were particularly rare. Humm, odd I've only ever seen one in the flesh, it is my perception that they are reasonably uncommon, at least here in the UK. Also I guess that older cards will only support drives up to 520Mb using CHS type geometry ? And also possibly would be limited to drives that will work in 8 bit XTA?? mode. Whereas the XTIDE has a bios that supports LBA drives, up to 137G, mind for an XT I can't see that you'd ever need a drive that big :) Though asuming that the hardware on the Seagate cards was up to doing 16 bit I/O, there's no reason why the XTIDE bios couldn't be ported to that hardware. The other thing is this is a completely open source project, the schematic, the bios, eveything. So whilst I don't have one of the pre-made boards, I was able to bash the schematic into Eagle, layout a board, and build my own, which does indeed work, may be a good way of getting some more capacity on my 5150 and 5160 :) I'll also try it in my Sinclair PC200 (also known as the Amstrad PC-20). Since my controler is logically the same as the above, do you want me to make reports of anything that does/does not work ? Now what we really need is an MCA IDE controler........that might be a little harder, did IBM ever release the documentation for MCA or do they still want $$$$ fo a license. I've only ever seen one other brand of machines that use MCA (made by Research Machines). Cheers. Phill. ---------------------------------------------------------------- This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. From dseagrav at lunar-tokyo.net Mon Oct 5 07:45:58 2009 From: dseagrav at lunar-tokyo.net (Daniel Seagraves) Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2009 07:45:58 -0500 Subject: IMP system software In-Reply-To: <4AC6FDC6.2030803@adrianwise.co.uk> References: <76E77758-DF45-48E5-A376-DF4EABAA75D8@loomcom.com> (sfid-20090930_142507_081247_3810518B) <4AC4F96C.30004@heeltoe.com> <4887868A-86FE-4250-8C77-B13A63EF9197@loomcom.com> <4AC510E3.6080802@adrianwise.co.uk> <4AC5EE96.50201@hachti.de> <4AC6FDC6.2030803@adrianwise.co.uk> Message-ID: Hey, is the IMP software also what was used to make a TIP or a TAC, or were those different? On Oct 3, 2009, at 2:31 AM, Adrian Wise wrote: > Hi Philip > > Old age must be creeping up on me since I clearly don't recall > correctly! The H316 is 1.6us as you say. > > Adrian > > Philipp Hachtmann wrote: >> Adrian Wise wrote: >>> The 516 and the 316 are 100% code compatible. >> Just wanted to write that... >>> Just the cycle time differs (0.96us for the 516, 1.3us for the 316 >>> IIRC) >> Have you tuned up your H316? My machine is running on 1.6us! In that >> case I would be glad to get your CPU and memory timing configuration >> :-) >> (Otherwise it would be an interesting experiment to see if and how >> much faster a H316 could be made. I'm quite confident that >> Honeywell/3C delivered the machines in a very stable configuration >> with big reserves with respect to reliability) >> Best wishes, >> Philipp :-) From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Mon Oct 5 07:47:38 2009 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Mon, 05 Oct 2009 07:47:38 -0500 Subject: XTIDE controller now available In-Reply-To: References: <4AC6B336.6010501@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <4AC9EAEA.2030006@brutman.com> Steven Hirsch wrote: > On Fri, 2 Oct 2009, Jim Leonard wrote: > >> I wanted to let all of you know that the 2nd revision of my friend's >> PC/XT IDE controller is now available. For those of you not in the >> know, this is a way of using modern IDE hard drives in your 8bit PC or >> XT system. Works with drives up to 137G (your O/S also has to support >> it; 8.4G is way more common) and Compact Flash->IDE controllers too. >> CD-ROM support is likely coming eventually, but he has to write an >> entire driver that MSCDEX would talk to. > > What am I not understanding about the need for this product? I have > about a half-dozen 8-bit ISA IDE controllers, mostly Seagate branded. > Didn't think they were particularly rare. > > Steve > > Funny, but now I know why the rest of us can't find them - you have a personal stockpile! Most of us can't find them on eBay or other places. This one has a BIOS that supports LBA mode drives. It was pretty funny seeing DOS 7 boot on a PC XT 5160. The BIOS is also flashable, which is a nice feature. (And we expect the source code to be openly available.) There will be announcements and pointers to a proper page/site when these things are more production ready. Mike From afra at aurigae.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 5 08:06:04 2009 From: afra at aurigae.demon.co.uk (afra at aurigae.demon.co.uk) Date: Mon, 05 Oct 2009 14:06:04 +0100 Subject: XTIDE controller now available In-Reply-To: <4AC9EAEA.2030006@brutman.com> References: <4AC6B336.6010501@oldskool.org> <4AC9EAEA.2030006@brutman.com> Message-ID: <20091005140604.87352kpfw48q8a4g@aurigae.demon.co.uk> Quoting "Michael B. Brutman" : > This one has a BIOS that supports LBA mode drives. It was pretty > funny seeing DOS 7 boot on a PC XT 5160. Is that Dos 7 as in Win 9x dos ? or as in PC-DOS 7 ? If the former, odd that it doesn't have any 386 instructions in there as 9x of course required a 386 or above. Guess if you used OpenDos (or Win98 dos 7), you can use Fat32 and have > 2G partitions....will try that tonight..... Phill. ---------------------------------------------------------------- This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. From pat at computer-refuge.org Mon Oct 5 09:26:36 2009 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2009 10:26:36 -0400 Subject: XTIDE controller now available In-Reply-To: <20091005112508.15865qlsefvcls3k@aurigae.demon.co.uk> References: <4AC6B336.6010501@oldskool.org> <20091005112508.15865qlsefvcls3k@aurigae.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <200910051026.37046.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Monday 05 October 2009, afra at aurigae.demon.co.uk wrote: > Now what we really need is an MCA IDE controler........that might be > a little harder, did IBM ever release the documentation for MCA or > do they still want $$$$ fo a license. I've only ever seen one other > brand of machines that use MCA (made by Research Machines). NCR also made Microchannel machines, including some quite large ones (Worldmark 5100, which at some point I had a couple of). Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From ploopster at gmail.com Mon Oct 5 09:42:21 2009 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 05 Oct 2009 10:42:21 -0400 Subject: XTIDE controller now available In-Reply-To: <200910051026.37046.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <4AC6B336.6010501@oldskool.org> <20091005112508.15865qlsefvcls3k@aurigae.demon.co.uk> <200910051026.37046.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <4ACA05CD.4080600@gmail.com> Patrick Finnegan wrote: > On Monday 05 October 2009, afra at aurigae.demon.co.uk wrote: >> Now what we really need is an MCA IDE controler........that might be >> a little harder, did IBM ever release the documentation for MCA or >> do they still want $$$$ fo a license. I've only ever seen one other >> brand of machines that use MCA (made by Research Machines). > > NCR also made Microchannel machines, including some quite large ones > (Worldmark 5100, which at some point I had a couple of). Tandy had the 4000MC too. Peace... Sridhar From useddec at gmail.com Mon Oct 5 09:48:51 2009 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2009 09:48:51 -0500 Subject: RK11-D controller spares available? In-Reply-To: <4AC9C72C.9000207@hachti.de> References: <4AC9C72C.9000207@hachti.de> Message-ID: <624966d60910050748k2461a324k7536010400fe890c@mail.gmail.com> I have the board, but will have to check on the backplane, Paul On Mon, Oct 5, 2009 at 5:15 AM, Philipp Hachtmann wrote: > Hi folks, > > does anybody have a spare M7256 board for the RK11-D controller? > And/or a backplane for it? > > If I find both, I'll have a complete controller... > > Best wishes, > > Philipp > > -- > http://www.hachti.de > From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Oct 5 10:00:03 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2009 11:00:03 -0400 Subject: XTIDE controller now available In-Reply-To: <200910051026.37046.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <4AC6B336.6010501@oldskool.org> <20091005112508.15865qlsefvcls3k@aurigae.demon.co.uk> <200910051026.37046.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: On Mon, Oct 5, 2009 at 10:26 AM, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > On Monday 05 October 2009, afra at aurigae.demon.co.uk wrote: >> Now what we really need is an MCA IDE controler........that might be >> ?a little harder, did IBM ever release the documentation for MCA or >> ?do they still want $$$$ fo a ?license. I've only ever seen one other >> ?brand of machines that use MCA (made by Research Machines). > > NCR also made Microchannel machines, including some quite large ones > (Worldmark 5100, which at some point I had a couple of). I worked with some large NCR MCA machines in the late 1990s when I was at Lucent. Imagine a machine larger than a VAX 11/750 with four Pentium-90 processors, multiple MCA buses and many SCSI cards on those MCA buses and many, many disks... the scary part was it was still so PC-compatible that it could still boot DOS and run Doom. -ethan From cclist at sydex.com Mon Oct 5 11:04:19 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 05 Oct 2009 09:04:19 -0700 Subject: XTIDE controller now available In-Reply-To: References: <4AC6B336.6010501@oldskool.org>, Message-ID: <4AC9B693.21667.A2607B4@cclist.sydex.com> On 4 Oct 2009 at 20:47, Steven Hirsch wrote: > What am I not understanding about the need for this product? I have > about a half-dozen 8-bit ISA IDE controllers, mostly Seagate branded. > Didn't think they were particularly rare. The overwhelming majority of those old 8-bit IDE controllers worked with XTIDE drives, which supported 8-bit data transfers. Unfortunately, even though the ATA standard kept the 8-bit transfer as an option for quite some time, no vendor supported it. Any IDE drive over about 100MB is likely to support only 16-bit transfers. As I understand the subject controller project, it latches the upper 8 bits of a 16-bit data transfer and makes it available in a subsequent cycle. However, one can use a CF memory card in an 8-bit IDE application, as I understand that all CF cards support the 8-bit mode of ATA. --Chuck From n0body.h0me at inbox.com Mon Oct 5 11:10:06 2009 From: n0body.h0me at inbox.com (N0body H0me) Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2009 08:10:06 -0800 Subject: DEC and HP hardware to go in Europe In-Reply-To: <4AC9314A.2050506@bitsavers.org> References: <4ac8cf8e.8000900@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <3AA626F2DBE.000003F9n0body.h0me@inbox.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: aek at bitsavers.org > Sent: Sun, 04 Oct 2009 16:35:38 -0700 > To: > Subject: Re: DEC and HP hardware to go in Europe > > Rik Bos wrote: >> So it works ? >> > > yes, chugging along happily with 9.10 Was 9.10 the last 680x0 version of HP/UX, or were there later ones? Do you have install media? From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Oct 5 12:01:37 2009 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 05 Oct 2009 10:01:37 -0700 Subject: DEC and HP hardware to go in Europe In-Reply-To: <3AA626F2DBE.000003F9n0body.h0me@inbox.com> References: <4ac8cf8e.8000900@bitsavers.org> <3AA626F2DBE.000003F9n0body.h0me@inbox.com> Message-ID: <4ACA2671.4070602@bitsavers.org> N0body H0me wrote: > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: aek at bitsavers.org >> Sent: Sun, 04 Oct 2009 16:35:38 -0700 >> To: >> Subject: Re: DEC and HP hardware to go in Europe >> >> Rik Bos wrote: >>> So it works ? >>> >> yes, chugging along happily with 9.10 > > Was 9.10 the last 680x0 version of HP/UX, or > were there later ones? 9.10 was the last release. There are some y2k issues which were addressed by a set of patches. http://www.tamsinc.com/hpux/support/Y2KPatch.htm From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Mon Oct 5 12:07:27 2009 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2009 19:07:27 +0200 Subject: DEC and HP hardware to go in Europe In-Reply-To: <3AA626F2DBE.000003F9n0body.h0me@inbox.com> References: <4ac8cf8e.8000900@bitsavers.org> <3AA626F2DBE.000003F9n0body.h0me@inbox.com> Message-ID: <02118665D76C4CB6B1BA373EE3851852@xp1800> > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Namens N0body H0me > Verzonden: maandag 5 oktober 2009 18:10 > Aan: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Onderwerp: Re: DEC and HP hardware to go in Europe > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: aek at bitsavers.org > > Sent: Sun, 04 Oct 2009 16:35:38 -0700 > > To: > > Subject: Re: DEC and HP hardware to go in Europe > > > > Rik Bos wrote: > >> So it works ? > >> > > > > yes, chugging along happily with 9.10 > > Was 9.10 the last 680x0 version of HP/UX, or were there later > ones? Do you have install media? > > 9.10 is the last version for the motorola 680x0. Yes, but I think it's easier to ask Al to make it downloadeble. Because I uploaded the images to Al. I'm not sure if they are free. I think if you have the according HP hardware, you have a license to use it. -Rik From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Mon Oct 5 12:08:13 2009 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2009 19:08:13 +0200 Subject: DEC and HP hardware to go in Europe In-Reply-To: <4AC9314A.2050506@bitsavers.org> References: <4AC8CF8E.8000900@bitsavers.org> <4AC9314A.2050506@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <595C312F0B3C467C82D3981AB1167DD4@xp1800> > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Namens Al Kossow > Verzonden: maandag 5 oktober 2009 1:36 > Aan: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Onderwerp: Re: DEC and HP hardware to go in Europe > > Rik Bos wrote: > > So it works ? > > > > yes, chugging along happily with 9.10 > > > > Great. From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Oct 5 12:26:23 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2009 13:26:23 -0400 Subject: XTIDE controller now available In-Reply-To: <4AC9B693.21667.A2607B4@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4AC6B336.6010501@oldskool.org>, <4AC9B693.21667.A2607B4@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <33BFA3A7-32ED-4714-8663-2157E7DC79C1@neurotica.com> On Oct 5, 2009, at 12:04 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > The overwhelming majority of those old 8-bit IDE controllers worked > with XTIDE drives, which supported 8-bit data transfers. > Unfortunately, even though the ATA standard kept the 8-bit transfer > as an option for quite some time, no vendor supported it. Any IDE > drive over about 100MB is likely to support only 16-bit transfers. Yes, unfortunately this is true. It's highly annoying for those of us who like to interface IDE drives to 8-bit processors but don't want to use CF. > As I understand the subject controller project, it latches the upper > 8 bits of a 16-bit data transfer and makes it available in a > subsequent cycle. Ahh, very nice. Sorta like the very nice GIDE interface for Z80 systems. I've designed a similar circuit in Verilog, but haven't tested it in real hardware yet. > However, one can use a CF memory card in an 8-bit IDE application, as > I understand that all CF cards support the 8-bit mode of ATA. Yes, they do. CF cards are required to implement the 8-bit transfer mode. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From bert at brothom.nl Mon Oct 5 12:42:03 2009 From: bert at brothom.nl (Bert Thomas) Date: Mon, 05 Oct 2009 19:42:03 +0200 Subject: philips PBX Message-ID: <4ACA2FEB.8000907@brothom.nl> http://bert.brothom.nl/gallery2/main.php?g2_itemId=3226 Is it worth anything? Wanna have it? Let me know. I bought it at an auction but I was disappointed to find just relays inside. It takes up a lot of space, so I want to get rid of it. From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Oct 5 13:02:30 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2009 14:02:30 -0400 Subject: philips PBX In-Reply-To: <4ACA2FEB.8000907@brothom.nl> References: <4ACA2FEB.8000907@brothom.nl> Message-ID: <0B2D44B7-02C0-4723-9EAF-99F9C670A8B0@neurotica.com> On Oct 5, 2009, at 1:42 PM, Bert Thomas wrote: > http://bert.brothom.nl/gallery2/main.php?g2_itemId=3226 > > Is it worth anything? Wanna have it? Let me know. > I bought it at an auction but I was disappointed to find just relays > inside. It takes up a lot of space, so I want to get rid of it. Were you expecting something other than a bunch of relays? ;) PBXen are typically very low-tech compared to the rest of the world. Those edge-lit displays are worth a good bit, though. I'd love to have those to build into a nice clock. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From trag at io.com Mon Oct 5 14:20:08 2009 From: trag at io.com (Jeff Walther) Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2009 14:20:08 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Help identifying unknown Mac SE accelerator In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <78eb291530b419d51925bd5c0c2f1822.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com> > > Date: Sat, 03 Oct 2009 18:19:17 -0700 > From: Josh Dersch > > Scrounged a Mac SE motherboard+accelerator from a parts bin at RE-PC > this afternoon and I'm trying to figure out what it is. Unfortunately > it looks like a few parts have been scavenged (a crystal oscillator and > a few chips, plus the 68030+FPU) and there's a loose wire on the > underside. > > I can't find any markings that give away its identity. I have a few > pictures up at http://yahozna.dyndns.org/scratch/mysterymac/. Anyone > have any ideas? There were a number of accelerators available back in the early/mid 90s. For an identification like that and possibly to find someone else with the same accelerator who can ID the missing parts, I'd try the appropriate sub-forum over on 68kmla.net. That's 68K Macintosh Liberation Army. Jeff Walther From geoffr at zipcon.net Mon Oct 5 14:39:25 2009 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoffrey Reed) Date: Mon, 05 Oct 2009 12:39:25 -0700 Subject: XTIDE controller now available In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >On 10/4/09 5:47 PM, "Steven Hirsch" wrote: > > What am I not understanding about the need for this product? I have about > a half-dozen 8-bit ISA IDE controllers, mostly Seagate branded. Didn't > think they were particularly rare. > > Steve > >From what this sounds like it is able to talk to large capacity IDE drives, presumedly 16-bit IDE drives. The older XT ide controllers by seagate (that I had) were limited to a handful of drives that could do 8-bit wide data transfers and were very limited capacity wise. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 5 14:51:31 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2009 20:51:31 +0100 (BST) Subject: Classic computers endangered! In-Reply-To: from "Ethan Dicks" at Oct 2, 9 00:46:40 am Message-ID: > Agreed for many parts of 1990s machines, but as for 1960s and 1970s > DEC machines in particular (the subject I know more about than > others), there are a few parts here and there that are getting > difficult to find without robbing them from other machines - Omnibus > buffers come to mind first, and certain parts from the -8/i and -8/L > era, like the 74H40 or the 7482. They aren't complete unobtanium yet, > but they are nowhere near as easy to find as they were 10 years ago. Sure, some parts are getting _hard_ to find, but that's not the same as 'impossible'. Geting a replacement '95 shift register for an HP calculator was non-trivial, but a lot easier than finding a part for a 1990's PC. There are of course many work-arounds if you don;'t mind minor kludges -- one of the M-series boards in my RK11C has a dead-bugged 74LS83 (IIRC) replacing a dead 7482. Works fine. Things like that. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 5 14:59:55 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2009 20:59:55 +0100 (BST) Subject: 8MM Tape drives In-Reply-To: <4AC762A7.2090507@bitsavers.org> from "Al Kossow" at Oct 3, 9 07:41:43 am Message-ID: > > 8200's are reaching the end of their useful life. Rather than turning to > goo, the pinch rollers crack. Since, IIRC, it uses tapes with the same form factor as 8mm video cassettes, does anyone know if any of the mechanism parts (particularly the rubber parts :-)) are the same as those used in any 8mm camcorder? If so, they would be fairly easy to obtain I think. -tony From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Oct 5 15:26:00 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2009 16:26:00 -0400 Subject: Classic computers endangered! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Oct 5, 2009 at 3:51 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> Agreed for many parts of 1990s machines, but as for 1960s and 1970s >> DEC machines in particular (the subject I know more about than >> others), there are a few parts here and there that are getting >> difficult to find without robbing them from other machines - Omnibus >> buffers come to mind first, and certain parts from the -8/i and -8/L >> era, like the 74H40 or the 7482... > > ...There are of course many work-arounds if you don;'t mind minor > kludges -- one of the M-series boards in my RK11C has a dead-bugged > 74LS83 (IIRC) replacing a dead 7482. Works fine. Things like that. Since I have a small number of 74LS83s in my parts bins, I might have to try that if I end up verifying that I have a dead 7482 on one of my M220s (from an -8/L, in my case). I think I've seen 74LS83s for sale somewhat recently (at Unicorn or some similar place). -ethan From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Oct 5 16:10:13 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2009 17:10:13 -0400 Subject: XTIDE controller now available In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Oct 5, 2009, at 3:39 PM, Geoffrey Reed wrote: >> What am I not understanding about the need for this product? I >> have about >> a half-dozen 8-bit ISA IDE controllers, mostly Seagate branded. >> Didn't >> think they were particularly rare. > > From what this sounds like it is able to talk to large capacity IDE > drives, > presumedly 16-bit IDE drives. The older XT ide controllers by > seagate (that > I had) were limited to a handful of drives that could do 8-bit wide > data > transfers and were very limited capacity wise. The big difference here is LBA vs. C/H/S addressing. Recall that the IDE interface is a clone of the register-level programming interface of the ancient WD1010 MFM hard disk controller chip family, whose registers are 8 bits wide. There's a register for the starting sector number (256 sectors), a register for the low byte of the cylinder address and two bits of another register for the high part of the cylinder address (meaning it tops out at 1024 cylinders), and half of a register for the head number (meaning 16 heads). 1024 cylinders * 16 heads * 256 sectors * 512 bytes/sector = 2GB I don't know where any supposed 520MB limit comes from; if someone can enlighten me there, I'd appreciate it. LBA (Logical Block Addressing) mode takes a large, flat linear address space of blocks with no notion of cylinders, heads, or sectors. It's 28 bits wide, topping out at about 137GB. IDE interfaces take that word of bits, break it up into little pieces, and sprinkle them across the former cylinder/head/sector registers (and pieces of registers) in a very kludgy and inefficient way. They take the LBA address and put the first 8 bits into the sector register, the middle 16 bits into the cylinder number register (yes, using it as a 16-bit register!), and the high four bits go into the head and device select register. Ugly, ugly, ugly. New kludges were devised to exceed this ~137GB plateau (obviously), but I don't know how they work offhand because I've never designed with them. Anyway, early BIOSs don't know how to deal with this, which is one of the things that makes this XTIDE controller special. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cclist at sydex.com Mon Oct 5 16:43:00 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 05 Oct 2009 14:43:00 -0700 Subject: XTIDE controller now available In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: <4ACA05F4.1311.B5C1A0F@cclist.sydex.com> On 5 Oct 2009 at 17:10, Dave McGuire wrote: > New kludges were devised to exceed this ~137GB plateau > (obviously), but I don't know how they work offhand because I've > never designed with them. Think "shadow registers"--instead of each 8-bit register in the task file representing an 8-bit quantity, each will accept two consecutive output or input commands and accept or return 16 bits. In other words, each register has a flip-flop that directs I/O to either 8 bit register. It's not pretty, but it works. > Anyway, early BIOSs don't know how to deal with this, which is one > > of the things that makes this XTIDE controller special. Well, one can also declare a minimal conventional CHS partition from which one boots and then install a driver to access the remainder of the drive. Something akin to the way a drive extender works. When I had my AT, I used some 1224 cylinder MFM drives that early BIOSes didn't know how to handle. So I booted from a smaller partition and then loaded my own driver. With an RLL controller, that gave me a whopping 250MB or so. --Chuck From afra at aurigae.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 5 17:00:33 2009 From: afra at aurigae.demon.co.uk (Phill Harvey-Smith) Date: Mon, 05 Oct 2009 23:00:33 +0100 Subject: XTIDE controller now available In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4ACA6C81.7070001@aurigae.demon.co.uk> Dave McGuire wrote: > I don't know where any supposed 520MB limit comes from; if someone can > enlighten me there, I'd appreciate it. IIRC it's from the fact that most BIOSes can only deal with a 6 bit sector number thus : AH = 02h AL = number of sectors to read (must be nonzero) CH = low eight bits of cylinder number CL = sector number 1-63 (bits 0-5) high two bits of cylinder (bits 6-7, hard disk only) DH = head number DL = drive number (bit 7 set for hard disk) ES:BX -> data buffer Copied from Ralf Brown's Interrupt List So 1024 cylinders x 16 Heads x 64 sectors is 512MB Later bioses I believe used the top bits of the head number to get greater capacity. Cheers. Phill. -- Phill Harvey-Smith, Programmer, Hardware hacker, and general eccentric ! "You can twist perceptions, but reality won't budge" -- Rush. From lynchaj at yahoo.com Mon Oct 5 18:14:30 2009 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2009 19:14:30 -0400 Subject: N8VEM S-100 Prototyping Board PCB manufacturing order imminent Message-ID: Hi! If you are interested in getting one or more N8VEM S-100 Prototyping Board PCBs, I am getting ready to make a manufacturing order. Based on my current projections, I am estimating a single N8VEM S-100 Prototyping Board PCB will cost $18 each (reduced from $25 each originally) plus $3 shipping in the US and $6 shipping overseas. I will combine shipping to reduce shipping costs depending on final weight. Please let me know soon if you would like to join in the order. If more persons join the order PCB costs may be further reduced. You can see additional information on the N8VEM S-100 Prototyping Board at the N8VEM wiki: http://n8vem-sbc.pbworks.com/browse/#view=ViewFolder ¶m=S100 Thanks and have a nice day! Andrew Lynch From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Oct 5 18:55:35 2009 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 05 Oct 2009 16:55:35 -0700 Subject: IMP system software In-Reply-To: References: <76E77758-DF45-48E5-A376-DF4EABAA75D8@loomcom.com> (sfid-20090930_142507_081247_3810518B) <4AC4F96C.30004@heeltoe.com> <4887868A-86FE-4250-8C77-B13A63EF9197@loomcom.com> <4AC510E3.6080802@adrianwise.co.uk> <4AC5EE96.50201@hachti.de> <4AC6FDC6.2030803@adrianwise.co.uk> Message-ID: <4ACA8777.6030001@bitsavers.org> Daniel Seagraves wrote: > Hey, is the IMP software also what was used to make a TIP or a TAC, or > were those different? It was different. TIPs were terminal servers. I just talked to the two people who brought up the first IMPs at SRI and UCLA. The earliest ones booted from paper tape. Once there was critical mass BBN added a boot rom board, and the software was remote loaded from them or from a neighboring IMP (they all ran the same version of the software). From dseagrav at lunar-tokyo.net Mon Oct 5 19:45:50 2009 From: dseagrav at lunar-tokyo.net (Daniel Seagraves) Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2009 19:45:50 -0500 Subject: IMP system software In-Reply-To: <4ACA8777.6030001@bitsavers.org> References: <76E77758-DF45-48E5-A376-DF4EABAA75D8@loomcom.com> (sfid-20090930_142507_081247_3810518B) <4AC4F96C.30004@heeltoe.com> <4887868A-86FE-4250-8C77-B13A63EF9197@loomcom.com> <4AC510E3.6080802@adrianwise.co.uk> <4AC5EE96.50201@hachti.de> <4AC6FDC6.2030803@adrianwise.co.uk> <4ACA8777.6030001@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <8a8d7f7780ce4bfa924fc7f3f5529ba3@lunar-tokyo.net> Does anyone still have the TIP or TAC software? Also, did the TIP/TAC require an IMP of its own? On Oct 5, 2009, at 6:55 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > Daniel Seagraves wrote: >> Hey, is the IMP software also what was used to make a TIP or a TAC, >> or were those different? > > It was different. TIPs were terminal servers. > > I just talked to the two people who brought up the first IMPs at SRI > and > UCLA. The earliest ones booted from paper tape. Once there was > critical mass > BBN added a boot rom board, and the software was remote loaded from > them > or from a neighboring IMP (they all ran the same version of the > software). > From hachti at hachti.de Mon Oct 5 20:10:11 2009 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Tue, 06 Oct 2009 03:10:11 +0200 Subject: philips PBX In-Reply-To: <4ACA2FEB.8000907@brothom.nl> References: <4ACA2FEB.8000907@brothom.nl> Message-ID: <4ACA98F3.6040101@hachti.de> > Is it worth anything? Is that an important question? I like it :-) -- http://www.hachti.de From ggs at shiresoft.com Mon Oct 5 20:57:33 2009 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2009 18:57:33 -0700 Subject: XTIDE controller now available In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Oct 5, 2009, at 2:10 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On Oct 5, 2009, at 3:39 PM, Geoffrey Reed wrote: >>> What am I not understanding about the need for this product? I >>> have about >>> a half-dozen 8-bit ISA IDE controllers, mostly Seagate branded. >>> Didn't >>> think they were particularly rare. >> >> From what this sounds like it is able to talk to large capacity IDE >> drives, >> presumedly 16-bit IDE drives. The older XT ide controllers by >> seagate (that >> I had) were limited to a handful of drives that could do 8-bit wide >> data >> transfers and were very limited capacity wise. > > The big difference here is LBA vs. C/H/S addressing. Recall that > the IDE interface is a clone of the register-level programming > interface of the ancient WD1010 MFM hard disk controller chip > family, whose registers are 8 bits wide. There's a register for the > starting sector number (256 sectors), a register for the low byte of > the cylinder address and two bits of another register for the high > part of the cylinder address (meaning it tops out at 1024 > cylinders), and half of a register for the head number (meaning 16 > heads). > > 1024 cylinders * 16 heads * 256 sectors * 512 bytes/sector = 2GB > > I don't know where any supposed 520MB limit comes from; if someone > can enlighten me there, I'd appreciate it. It was originally 63 sectors. I was one of the 3 people at IBM who came up with this scheme (because the controller we had did LBA addressing so we needed a way to map C/H/S to LBA in a simple way). We *knew* at the time that this was constraining but we figured that LBA would be in place before we hit the limit. We were wrong. TTFN - Guy From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Oct 5 21:59:05 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2009 22:59:05 -0400 Subject: Two kinds of Apple Airport cards?!? Message-ID: Hi, All, I had great success recently, wedging in a "Dell 1150" Orinoco-based 802.11b card into a CRT-based iMac. I'm having less success with finding something to fit a G4 cube that recently followed me home. While at first glance, the antenna connectors look the same in the G4 Cube and iMac, they are not. I'm rather puzzled by that, unless Apple happened to change connectors from one line to another. I searched around a bit, but didn't seem to turn up any stated differences on Apple's support site or on various fora that cover older Macs. Does anyone have any experience with various G3 and G4 Macs and Airport cards? Are there two "styles" with incompatible antenna jacks? Thanks, -ethan From n0body.h0me at inbox.com Mon Oct 5 23:21:39 2009 From: n0body.h0me at inbox.com (N0body H0me) Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2009 20:21:39 -0800 Subject: DEC and HP hardware to go in Europe In-Reply-To: <02118665D76C4CB6B1BA373EE3851852@xp1800> References: <4ac8cf8e.8000900@bitsavers.org> <3aa626f2dbe.000003f9n0body.h0me@inbox.com> Message-ID: <41094A2C5C8.000009C5n0body.h0me@inbox.com> >>> Rik Bos wrote: >>>> So it works ? >>>> >>> >>> yes, chugging along happily with 9.10 >> >> Was 9.10 the last 680x0 version of HP/UX, or were there later >> ones? Do you have install media? >> >> > > 9.10 is the last version for the motorola 680x0. > Yes, but I think it's easier to ask Al to make it downloadeble. > Because I uploaded the images to Al. > I'm not sure if they are free. > I think if you have the according HP hardware, you have a license to use > it. > > -Rik Hmmm, I'm wondering about this. I have a GPIB drive that goes with my 370 that has HPUX 9.x, but I have neither passwords nor install media. I may have to stick with *BSD. I suspect HP is pretty watchful over their IP. Are you using tape or disk images? ____________________________________________________________ Receive Notifications of Incoming Messages Easily monitor multiple email accounts & access them with a click. Visit http://www.inbox.com/notifier and check it out! From ggs17 at mac.com Mon Oct 5 17:07:23 2009 From: ggs17 at mac.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Mon, 05 Oct 2009 15:07:23 -0700 Subject: XTIDE controller now available In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4AF6BE8B-872B-415B-B11B-B24045CDAB5A@mac.com> On Oct 5, 2009, at 3:39 PM, Geoffrey Reed wrote: >> What am I not understanding about the need for this product? I >> have about >> a half-dozen 8-bit ISA IDE controllers, mostly Seagate branded. >> Didn't >> think they were particularly rare. > > From what this sounds like it is able to talk to large capacity IDE > drives, > presumedly 16-bit IDE drives. The older XT ide controllers by > seagate (that > I had) were limited to a handful of drives that could do 8-bit wide > data > transfers and were very limited capacity wise. The big difference here is LBA vs. C/H/S addressing. Recall that the IDE interface is a clone of the register-level programming interface of the ancient WD1010 MFM hard disk controller chip family, whose registers are 8 bits wide. There's a register for the starting sector number (256 sectors), a register for the low byte of the cylinder address and two bits of another register for the high part of the cylinder address (meaning it tops out at 1024 cylinders), and half of a register for the head number (meaning 16 heads). 1024 cylinders * 16 heads * 256 sectors * 512 bytes/sector = 2GB I don't know where any supposed 520MB limit comes from; if someone can enlighten me there, I'd appreciate it. LBA (Logical Block Addressing) mode takes a large, flat linear address space of blocks with no notion of cylinders, heads, or sectors. It's 28 bits wide, topping out at about 137GB. IDE interfaces take that word of bits, break it up into little pieces, and sprinkle them across the former cylinder/head/sector registers (and pieces of registers) in a very kludgy and inefficient way. They take the LBA address and put the first 8 bits into the sector register, the middle 16 bits into the cylinder number register (yes, using it as a 16-bit register!), and the high four bits go into the head and device select register. Ugly, ugly, ugly. New kludges were devised to exceed this ~137GB plateau (obviously), but I don't know how they work offhand because I've never designed with them. Anyway, early BIOSs don't know how to deal with this, which is one of the things that makes this XTIDE controller special. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ggs17 at mac.com Mon Oct 5 17:07:53 2009 From: ggs17 at mac.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Mon, 05 Oct 2009 15:07:53 -0700 Subject: XTIDE controller now available In-Reply-To: <4ACA6C81.7070001@aurigae.demon.co.uk> References: <4ACA6C81.7070001@aurigae.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <4E1E738A-DB84-4310-AA34-D259ECA11AFF@mac.com> On Oct 5, 2009, at 3:00 PM, Phill Harvey-Smith wrote: > Dave McGuire wrote: >> I don't know where any supposed 520MB limit comes from; if someone >> can enlighten me there, I'd appreciate it. > > IIRC it's from the fact that most BIOSes can only deal with a 6 bit > sector number thus : > > AH = 02h > AL = number of sectors to read (must be nonzero) > CH = low eight bits of cylinder number > CL = sector number 1-63 (bits 0-5) > high two bits of cylinder (bits 6-7, hard disk only) > DH = head number > DL = drive number (bit 7 set for hard disk) > ES:BX -> data buffer > There were 3 of us (I was one...I can go I'd have to think about who the others were) at IBM that defined the mapping to ~512MB. We knew at the time that this was a limit but we figured PCs would switch to an LBA format before we hit the limit...we were wrong. :-) TTFN - Guy From snhirsch at gmail.com Mon Oct 5 17:18:00 2009 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2009 18:18:00 -0400 (EDT) Subject: XTIDE controller now available In-Reply-To: <4AC9B693.21667.A2607B4@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4AC6B336.6010501@oldskool.org>, <4AC9B693.21667.A2607B4@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 5 Oct 2009, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 4 Oct 2009 at 20:47, Steven Hirsch wrote: > >> What am I not understanding about the need for this product? I have >> about a half-dozen 8-bit ISA IDE controllers, mostly Seagate branded. >> Didn't think they were particularly rare. > > The overwhelming majority of those old 8-bit IDE controllers worked > with XTIDE drives, which supported 8-bit data transfers. > Unfortunately, even though the ATA standard kept the 8-bit transfer > as an option for quite some time, no vendor supported it. Any IDE > drive over about 100MB is likely to support only 16-bit transfers. > > As I understand the subject controller project, it latches the upper > 8 bits of a 16-bit data transfer and makes it available in a > subsequent cycle. Ah. Ok, thanks all. I didn't really consider the 8/16 bit issue, but should know better. This is a big problem when trying to find a replacement drive for Apple II drive systems such as the Applied Engineering Vulcan. There are only a small handful of IDE drives that will work with them. > However, one can use a CF memory card in an 8-bit IDE application, as > I understand that all CF cards support the 8-bit mode of ATA. That's an interesting fact I'll keep filed away! Steve -- From teoz at neo.rr.com Tue Oct 6 02:05:39 2009 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2009 03:05:39 -0400 Subject: XTIDE controller now available References: <4AC6B336.6010501@oldskool.org>, <4AC9B693.21667.A2607B4@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steven Hirsch" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" Sent: Monday, October 05, 2009 6:18 PM Subject: Re: XTIDE controller now available > Ah. Ok, thanks all. I didn't really consider the 8/16 bit issue, but > should know better. This is a big problem when trying to find a > replacement drive for Apple II drive systems such as the Applied > Engineering Vulcan. There are only a small handful of IDE drives that > will work with them. > >> However, one can use a CF memory card in an 8-bit IDE application, as >> I understand that all CF cards support the 8-bit mode of ATA. > > That's an interesting fact I'll keep filed away! > > Steve > > > -- I would think an 8bit SCSI version would be cool to have as well, still plenty of smaller SCSI drives around as well as Iomega and Syquest removables plus tape drives. From quapla at xs4all.nl Tue Oct 6 02:21:44 2009 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (Ed Groenenberg) Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2009 09:21:44 +0200 Subject: philips PBX In-Reply-To: <4ACA2FEB.8000907@brothom.nl> References: <4ACA2FEB.8000907@brothom.nl> Message-ID: Nice device. Why not give it to a telecom museum or hook it up with a few old rotary type phones? Would be a nice setup for demonstration. Ed > http://bert.brothom.nl/gallery2/main.php?g2_itemId=3226 > > Is it worth anything? Wanna have it? Let me know. > I bought it at an auction but I was disappointed to find just relays > inside. It takes up a lot of space, so I want to get rid of it. > > > -- Certified : VCP 3.x, SCSI 3.x SCSA S10, SCNA S10 From bert at brothom.nl Tue Oct 6 05:01:05 2009 From: bert at brothom.nl (Bert Thomas) Date: Tue, 06 Oct 2009 12:01:05 +0200 Subject: philips PBX Message-ID: <4ACB1561.3070601@brothom.nl> I'm subscribed to the digest version, so I'll reply to all questions at once in this mail. >> Were you expecting something other than a bunch of relays? ;) PBXen are typically very low-tech compared to the rest of the world. << I hoped to find some electronics for for example dial tone generation. >> Is that an important question? I like it :-) << I don't to trash it if it is valuable to someone. >> Nice device. Why not give it to a telecom museum or hook it up with a few old rotary type phones? Would be a nice setup for demonstration. << I did think of a telephony museum. But the reason for not choosing the other option is that I have so many old systems now that probably even if I started playing full time with them from now till the day I die I probably cannot do everything I would like to do. So I choose to restrict my time to just the systems that give me the most satisfaction. I'm addicted to satisfaction! :-) Regards, Bert From jrasite at eoni.com Tue Oct 6 07:55:11 2009 From: jrasite at eoni.com (Jim Arnott) Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2009 05:55:11 -0700 Subject: Two kinds of Apple Airport cards?!? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5DE407FB-2EA7-4772-BCD0-0C6A170369C4@eoni.com> On Oct 5, 2009, at 7:59 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > Are there two "styles" with incompatible antenna > jacks? Airport and Airport Extreme. Jim From auringer at tds.net Tue Oct 6 08:35:36 2009 From: auringer at tds.net (auringer tds.net) Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2009 08:35:36 -0500 Subject: DEC and HP hardware to go in Europe In-Reply-To: <41094A2C5C8.000009C5n0body.h0me@inbox.com> References: <4ac8cf8e.8000900@bitsavers.org> <3aa626f2dbe.000003f9n0body.h0me@inbox.com> <02118665D76C4CB6B1BA373EE3851852@xp1800> <41094A2C5C8.000009C5n0body.h0me@inbox.com> Message-ID: <3187f0030910060635wa7bcdf2h5c3b1686187facb6@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, Oct 5, 2009 at 11:21 PM, N0body H0me wrote: > > Hmmm, I'm wondering about this. I have a GPIB drive that goes > with my 370 that has HPUX 9.x, but I have neither passwords nor > install media. I may have to stick with *BSD. I suspect HP > is pretty watchful over their IP. > It isn't HP you have to worry about any more, it is TAMS that sells HP-UX 9.10 for the Hp 300 series of computers. $1800 for a 2 user license. http://www.tamsinc.com/hpux/hpux910.htm -Jon From dbetz at xlisper.com Tue Oct 6 09:05:42 2009 From: dbetz at xlisper.com (David Betz) Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2009 10:05:42 -0400 Subject: Some DEC parts and a Sun-compatible CD-ROM drive In-Reply-To: <003201ca4141$a1b62930$e5227b90$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> References: <99B30BCA-9829-456A-9ABD-E8841010CAF2@xlisper.com> <003201ca4141$a1b62930$e5227b90$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <54975F82-CB16-4801-8ACD-E2361EEBFEE4@xlisper.com> I'm not sure it would be a good idea to ship the RZ25 to the UK since I'm not absolutely certain that it works. I figured I'd pay the shipping to someone local if they were interested and that nothing would be lost if it turned out to be bad. I have no reason to believe it doesn't work but I have never tried it since it was given to me. David On Sep 29, 2009, at 4:15 PM, Rob Jarratt wrote: > Any idea what it might cost to ship the RZ25 to the UK? > > Thanks > > Rob > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] > On Behalf Of David Betz > Sent: 29 September 2009 20:29 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Some DEC parts and a Sun-compatible CD-ROM drive > > >> I have a few DEC items that might be of interest to people here: >> >> RZ25-E hard drive >> BCC14-10 cable >> BCC05 cable >> H8574-A SCSI terminator >> >> I also have a Toshiba TXM3401E1 CD-ROM drive that I used to install >> software on a Sun SPARCstation. >> >> Of course, I'd like to sell this stuff for millions or at least >> trade it for an Apple 1 but I'll consider all offers that don't >> involve negative numbers! >> >> Anyone interested in this stuff? > > I forgot to mention that this stuff is in Bedford, NH but it's small > enough that it could be shipped. I also have a canvas bag with the > NeXT logo and the text "The NeXT Day" on it that was given to me when > I attended the introduction of the NeXT machine in San Francisco. > > Hint: zero is not a negative number > From dbetz at xlisper.com Tue Oct 6 09:14:26 2009 From: dbetz at xlisper.com (David Betz) Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2009 10:14:26 -0400 Subject: Some DEC parts and a Sun-compatible CD-ROM drive In-Reply-To: <54975F82-CB16-4801-8ACD-E2361EEBFEE4@xlisper.com> References: <99B30BCA-9829-456A-9ABD-E8841010CAF2@xlisper.com> <003201ca4141$a1b62930$e5227b90$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> <54975F82-CB16-4801-8ACD-E2361EEBFEE4@xlisper.com> Message-ID: On Oct 6, 2009, at 10:05 AM, David Betz wrote: > I'm not sure it would be a good idea to ship the RZ25 to the UK > since I'm not absolutely certain that it works. I figured I'd pay > the shipping to someone local if they were interested and that > nothing would be lost if it turned out to be bad. I have no reason > to believe it doesn't work but I have never tried it since it was > given to me. Sorry! This was meant to be a private message. From joachim.thiemann at gmail.com Tue Oct 6 09:26:32 2009 From: joachim.thiemann at gmail.com (Joachim Thiemann) Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2009 10:26:32 -0400 Subject: "Imaging" a MFM drive? Message-ID: <4affc5e0910060726v44b2c169ic7187b9ac0c87896@mail.gmail.com> Hello, I have an old MFM drive (MiniScribe 8425) hooked up to a Xebec 1210C 8-bit ISA controller, pulled out of my Amiga 1060 sidecar, which used to be the system drive for my A1000 (still in fine shape, thank you, though the sidecar sadly isn't). The drive ought to have a 5Meg DOS partition and the rest Amiga formatted. Out of nostalgia and curiosity, I'd like to attempt to "image" the drive, to see if I can get at the old Amiga files. Any idea how this might be possible? I can get a hold of a 1998-era PC, mainly PCI but still with a single 16-bit ISA slot - but I have no idea if there is any software that can then get the bits off the drive. ISTR that the xd driver in linux was broken or removed, or is the card WD100x compatible? Can NetBSD talk to it? Will the 8-bit BIOS on the card work in a Celeron class machine? If somehow I find a sufficiently old PC, how can I get the data off the non-MS-DOS partition? FWIW, if you're in the Montreal/Ottawa region, and you can make an image of the drive for me, you can keep the controller and the card for your collection, and I could even give you a Sidecar with or without Amiga 1000 for your troubles :-) It is of course quite possible that both the controller and/or the drive have gone to silicon heaven, and might make nice wall decorations. Joe. PS. I'm thinking a A2000 with A2086 card would probably be a good way to get at the data. I have neither, only an A3000. -- Joachim Thiemann :: http://www.tsp.ece.mcgill.ca/~jthiem From emu at e-bbes.com Tue Oct 6 09:41:25 2009 From: emu at e-bbes.com (e.stiebler) Date: Tue, 06 Oct 2009 08:41:25 -0600 Subject: "Imaging" a MFM drive? In-Reply-To: <4affc5e0910060726v44b2c169ic7187b9ac0c87896@mail.gmail.com> References: <4affc5e0910060726v44b2c169ic7187b9ac0c87896@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4ACB5715.4080701@e-bbes.com> Joachim Thiemann wrote: > Hello, > Out of nostalgia and curiosity, I'd like to attempt to "image" the > drive, to see if I can get at the old Amiga files. Any idea how this > might be possible? If you don't succeed, and can wait, we just got our boards in from assembly. We made an (hopfully) universal MFM reader/writer/emulator. But as usual, we are still fighting software issues. Not even an idea, when we will be ready for user data. Just saying, don't throw away the drive ;-) Cheers From lehmann at ans-netz.de Tue Oct 6 10:08:32 2009 From: lehmann at ans-netz.de (Oliver Lehmann) Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2009 17:08:32 +0200 Subject: "Imaging" a MFM drive? In-Reply-To: <4ACB5715.4080701@e-bbes.com> References: <4affc5e0910060726v44b2c169ic7187b9ac0c87896@mail.gmail.com> <4ACB5715.4080701@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: <20091006170832.017b12c6.lehmann@ans-netz.de> e.stiebler wrote: > Joachim Thiemann wrote: > > Hello, > > Out of nostalgia and curiosity, I'd like to attempt to "image" the > > drive, to see if I can get at the old Amiga files. Any idea how this > > might be possible? > > If you don't succeed, and can wait, we just got our boards in from > assembly. We made an (hopfully) universal MFM reader/writer/emulator. > But as usual, we are still fighting software issues. Not even an idea, > when we will be ready for user data. > > Just saying, don't throw away the drive ;-) Any more facts available? Online? I'm asking because I guess quite some people might be interested in this. I only know of solutions for replacing specific ST506 interface harddisk (no "generic" replacement) and even those are kinda expensive. I guess it must have a quite decent microprocessor to emulate it. What real storage will be used to save the data on? CF-card, SD-card or something? I fear this because they are not that good when it comes to many reads and writes (I have systems where the swap is for example on a MFM harddisk as well...) So.. can you share more information or do you have a page online? -- Oliver Lehmann http://www.pofo.de/ http://wishlist.ans-netz.de/ From dgahling at hotmail.com Tue Oct 6 10:20:46 2009 From: dgahling at hotmail.com (Dan Gahlinger) Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2009 11:20:46 -0400 Subject: "Imaging" a MFM drive? In-Reply-To: <4ACB5715.4080701@e-bbes.com> References: <4affc5e0910060726v44b2c169ic7187b9ac0c87896@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: load that pc with linux, and use "dd" it'll do a raw dump of the drive to binary (iso) format Dan. > Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2009 08:41:25 -0600 > From: emu at e-bbes.com > To: > Subject: Re: "Imaging" a MFM drive? > > Joachim Thiemann wrote: > > Hello, > > Out of nostalgia and curiosity, I'd like to attempt to "image" the > > drive, to see if I can get at the old Amiga files. Any idea how this > > might be possible? > > If you don't succeed, and can wait, we just got our boards in from > assembly. We made an (hopfully) universal MFM reader/writer/emulator. > But as usual, we are still fighting software issues. Not even an idea, > when we will be ready for user data. > > Just saying, don't throw away the drive ;-) > > Cheers _________________________________________________________________ New! Open Messenger faster on the MSN homepage http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9677405 From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Tue Oct 6 10:51:07 2009 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Tue, 06 Oct 2009 16:51:07 +0100 Subject: "Imaging" a MFM drive? In-Reply-To: <4affc5e0910060726v44b2c169ic7187b9ac0c87896@mail.gmail.com> References: <4affc5e0910060726v44b2c169ic7187b9ac0c87896@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4ACB676B.4070403@philpem.me.uk> Joachim Thiemann wrote: > I have an old MFM drive (MiniScribe 8425) hooked up to a Xebec > 1210C 8-bit ISA controller, pulled out of my Amiga 1060 sidecar, [...] > I can get a hold of a 1998-era PC, mainly PCI but > still with a single 16-bit ISA slot - but I have no idea if there is > any software that can then get the bits off the drive. There are a few things I'd be worried about here... - You need to know what parameters were used when formatting the drive. Usually these will be the ones printed on the drive label (or in the instruction book) but sometimes e.g. the cylinder count is reduced to get around bad cylinders, and so on. - As it's an 8-bit card, it should work fine in a 16-bit ISA slot. Problem is, it may well conflict with the motherboard's onboard IDE controller (if it has one, which is likely). At the very least you'll need to configure the Xebec card as a secondary controller, then turn off the secondary IDE controller in the BIOS. > ISTR that the > xd driver in linux was broken or removed, or is the card WD100x > compatible? It's still in the 2.6 kernel source... No idea if it works, but in any case you'll probably have to build a custom kernel to use it (I'll bet most Linux distros won't compile it in by default). > Will the 8-bit BIOS on the card > work in a Celeron class machine? Should do. Worst case, pull the EPROM chip or flip the ROM_DISABLE jumper. > If somehow I find a sufficiently old > PC, how can I get the data off the non-MS-DOS partition? $ su - # dd if=/dev/hd(whatever the Xebec comes up as) of=/root/hdd_image Then copy hdd_image off onto another (faster) machine for processing. That'll give you a raw dump of the contents of the drive. Then you just have to figure out the partitioning and data structure (even/odd word storage, and so on)... It should be possible to search the drive image block-by-block to find the Amiga FS superblock -- you can certainly do it for FAT{12,16,32} and the Linux Extfs variants because there's static data in the superblock. -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Oct 6 11:07:46 2009 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 06 Oct 2009 09:07:46 -0700 Subject: "Imaging" a MFM drive? In-Reply-To: <4ACB5715.4080701@e-bbes.com> References: <4affc5e0910060726v44b2c169ic7187b9ac0c87896@mail.gmail.com> <4ACB5715.4080701@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: <4ACB6B52.1060608@bitsavers.org> e.stiebler wrote: > If you don't succeed, and can wait, we just got our boards in from > assembly. We made an (hopfully) universal MFM reader/writer/emulator. > But as usual, we are still fighting software issues. Not even an idea, > when we will be ready for user data. > Are there any details on this available? I had been wondering this weekend if a Catweasel had high enough timer resolution for a ST-412 era data stream. From joachim.thiemann at gmail.com Tue Oct 6 11:17:35 2009 From: joachim.thiemann at gmail.com (Joachim Thiemann) Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2009 12:17:35 -0400 Subject: "Imaging" a MFM drive? In-Reply-To: <4ACB676B.4070403@philpem.me.uk> References: <4affc5e0910060726v44b2c169ic7187b9ac0c87896@mail.gmail.com> <4ACB676B.4070403@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4affc5e0910060917w15318234p88238dd55a11d9d1@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Oct 6, 2009 at 11:51, Philip Pemberton wrote: > Joachim Thiemann wrote: >> >> ? I have an old MFM drive (MiniScribe 8425) hooked up to a Xebec >> 1210C 8-bit ISA controller, pulled out of my Amiga 1060 sidecar, > > [...] > >> I can get a hold of a 1998-era PC, mainly PCI but >> >> still with a single 16-bit ISA slot - but I have no idea if there is >> any software that can then get the bits off the drive. > > There are a few things I'd be worried about here... > ?- You need to know what parameters were used when formatting the drive. > Usually these will be the ones printed on the drive label (or in the > instruction book) but sometimes e.g. the cylinder count is reduced to get > around bad cylinders, and so on. That may be a difficult bit. All documentation - if there ever was some - is long gone. The Amiga and Sidecar have been through many moves, and was last used sometime around 1993/4 when it was replaced by the A3000. > ?- As it's an 8-bit card, it should work fine in a 16-bit ISA slot. Problem > is, it may well conflict with the motherboard's onboard IDE controller (if > it has one, which is likely). At the very least you'll need to configure the > Xebec card as a secondary controller, then turn off the secondary IDE > controller in the BIOS. I found a page describing the jumpers for the controller by googling "Xebec" and the assembly-number (104866 or something, I don't have it in front of me) so moving the address is certainly an option. >> ISTR that the >> >> xd driver in linux was broken or removed, or is the card WD100x >> compatible? > > It's still in the 2.6 kernel source... No idea if it works, but in any case > you'll probably have to build a custom kernel to use it (I'll bet most Linux > distros won't compile it in by default). I was asking since a google returned a message on the kernel developers list (199? timeframe, 2.0 kernel) complaining about the nonfunctional xd driver and suggesting it'd be removed in future. I still have a set of original RH5.2 install CD's I'll check those once I find them :-) >> Will the 8-bit BIOS on the card >> work in a Celeron class machine? > > Should do. Worst case, pull the EPROM chip or flip the ROM_DISABLE jumper. > >> If somehow I find a sufficiently old >> >> PC, how can I get the data off the non-MS-DOS partition? > > $ su - > # dd if=/dev/hd(whatever the Xebec comes up as) of=/root/hdd_image > > Then copy hdd_image off onto another (faster) machine for processing. I was actually assuming the way to get this drive working was to find a 8086 class machine (thus it'd be the primary controller) - so dd would not be an applicable command; then somehow use DOS either from the 5Meg partition (that should still be there if the drive kept all its bits in place) or a floppy to somehow dump the raw HD bits off. Yes, dd would be nice, but that assumes a 32-bit machine with a driver for the card. That is my concern. Hmmm, maybe an old Minix system could talk to the card :-) od the raw device to the serial port, then capture the octal data and reassemble the image file... Joe. -- Joachim Thiemann :: http://www.tsp.ece.mcgill.ca/~jthiem From n0body.h0me at inbox.com Tue Oct 6 11:20:34 2009 From: n0body.h0me at inbox.com (N0body H0me) Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2009 08:20:34 -0800 Subject: HP/UX 9.x (Was: DEC and HP hardware to go in Europe) In-Reply-To: <3187f0030910060635wa7bcdf2h5c3b1686187facb6@mail.gmail.com> References: <4ac8cf8e.8000900@bitsavers.org> <3aa626f2dbe.000003f9n0body.h0me@inbox.com> <02118665d76c4cb6b1ba373ee3851852@xp1800> <41094a2c5c8.000009c5n0body.h0me@inbox.com> Message-ID: <47502E29932.000003F5n0body.h0me@inbox.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: auringer at tds.net > Sent: Tue, 6 Oct 2009 08:35:36 -0500 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: DEC and HP hardware to go in Europe > > On Mon, Oct 5, 2009 at 11:21 PM, N0body H0me > wrote: > >> >> Hmmm, I'm wondering about this. I have a GPIB drive that goes >> with my 370 that has HPUX 9.x, but I have neither passwords nor >> install media. I may have to stick with *BSD. I suspect HP >> is pretty watchful over their IP. >> > > It isn't HP you have to worry about any more, it is TAMS that sells HP-UX > 9.10 for the Hp 300 series of computers. $1800 for a 2 user license. > > http://www.tamsinc.com/hpux/hpux910.htm > > -Jon Oh, so TAMS actually owns that IP, then. That's interesting, I would have thought HP would have used what I call the 'Scorched IP' approach, kinda like: "Sorry, you can't have that version, it's no longer supported. It is not freely available, we will not make it freely available, and we will hunt down and kill anyone who illegally distributes or attempts to distribute it." Seriously, though, $1800 is a bit rich for hobbyist use, but I suspect that price reflects the fact that there's probably *alot* of ATE based on that platform that's still in use (somebody correct me if I'm wrong). A good solution can still do the same job a decade (or more) from now . . . ____________________________________________________________ FREE 3D EARTH SCREENSAVER - Watch the Earth right on your desktop! Check it out at http://www.inbox.com/earth From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Tue Oct 6 11:54:25 2009 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Tue, 06 Oct 2009 17:54:25 +0100 Subject: "Imaging" a MFM drive? In-Reply-To: <4ACB6B52.1060608@bitsavers.org> References: <4affc5e0910060726v44b2c169ic7187b9ac0c87896@mail.gmail.com> <4ACB5715.4080701@e-bbes.com> <4ACB6B52.1060608@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4ACB7641.9050309@philpem.me.uk> Al Kossow wrote: >> If you don't succeed, and can wait, we just got our boards in from >> assembly. We made an (hopfully) universal MFM reader/writer/emulator. >> But as usual, we are still fighting software issues. Not even an idea, >> when we will be ready for user data. Interesting. I'm doing basically the same thing. Just found out this morning that almost the entire disc reader logic module was unstable -- it passes testbench perfectly, but won't work in hardware. Seems to be a fairly simple issue, but I've gone back to getting the drive stepping / status readback working over USB and adding some "fast register access" functions to the microcontroller first. The RAM read/write and USB stuff works really nicely, though. So basically I have a 512Kbyte, USB-interfaced SRAM :) > I had been wondering this weekend if a Catweasel had high enough timer > resolution for a ST-412 era data stream. I did some back-of-the-envelope calculations a while ago -- An ST412 will allow a maximum of 5e6 flux transitions per second. 1/5e6 = 200 nanoseconds between two flux transitions (worst case) The Catweasel's clock oscillator is switchable between: - 7.080MHz - 14.161MHz - 28.332MHz (Mk3 and Mk4 only) Which gives a timing resolution of: - 7.080MHz -- 141.2429 nanoseconds - 14.161MHz -- 70.6165 nanoseconds - 28.332MHz -- 35.2958 nanoseconds None of these are factors of 200ns, even if we ignore the fractional part; thus any measured timing values will be subject to a fair amount of jitter (around the 1-2 clock cycles mark). This would probably be masked by the inherent inaccuracy of the drive's spindle motor, though. Taking the coding into account, standard MFM has a minimum of 1T (200ns) and a maximum of 2T (400ns) between two transitions -- there's also the possibility of a 1.5T (300ns) delay between transitions. Using the fastest clock rate (28.332MHz)... - At 1T, you'll get a count of 5.6664. The CW can't count in fractions, so you'll see a count of 5. - At 1.5T, you'll see a count of 8.4996. The fraction is dropped, leaving a count of 8. - At 2T, you'll see a count of 11.3328. Again, the fraction is dropped, thus you see a count of 11. Decoding this would be possible, but wouldn't leave much room for error. If you had a "late" transition followed by an "early" transition, the difference in counts between two transitions could be as little as one clock. Even if the gap was wider, it'd still be hard to say with 100% certainty "this is a 01 sequence" or "this is a 001 sequence". I'm using a 40MHz primary clock reference in my disc analyser for a few reasons: - It makes the math easy. 40MHz = 25ns per count. - 25ns is an integer factor of the bit-cell sizes and transition periods used on floppy discs. It also ties in nicely with the transition rates used on MFM HDDs, assuming you don't want to write back to the drive. The 25ns resolution of a 40MHz oscillator gives a 1T count of 8, a 1.5T count of 12, and a 2T count of 16. Even with a worst-case jitter of 2 cycles, you still have a 2-count gap between the two ranges. However, the FPGA has an on-board PLL -- you can multiply the reference clock by just about any factor you like. Increase it to, say, 160MHz and you get a much better margin (though your transition rate is still limited to the speed of the RAM and the master clock). If you wanted to write back to the drive, you'd need to handle precompensation, which would involve increasing the clock rate (the ST412 and ST506 precompensation value is 12ns according to the OEM Manual). Unless, that is, you were trying to build a Write-Only Memory... :) -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Tue Oct 6 12:10:13 2009 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Tue, 06 Oct 2009 18:10:13 +0100 Subject: "Imaging" a MFM drive? In-Reply-To: <4affc5e0910060917w15318234p88238dd55a11d9d1@mail.gmail.com> References: <4affc5e0910060726v44b2c169ic7187b9ac0c87896@mail.gmail.com> <4ACB676B.4070403@philpem.me.uk> <4affc5e0910060917w15318234p88238dd55a11d9d1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4ACB79F5.2090604@philpem.me.uk> Joachim Thiemann wrote: > That may be a difficult bit. All documentation - if there ever was > some - is long gone. The Amiga and Sidecar have been through many > moves, and was last used sometime around 1993/4 when it was replaced > by the A3000. Ouch... In any case I'd try the "standard" parameters first. I do wonder if the controller has its own onboard store for the disc parameters, which would mean you didn't have to bother trying to figure them out. Actually, If the partition table is DOS/PC standard, the C:H:S of the drive should be stored in CHS 0:0:0... (I spent far too much of my life doing low-level programming on DOS boxen :P ) > I found a page describing the jumpers for the controller by googling > "Xebec" and the assembly-number (104866 or something, I don't have it > in front of me) so moving the address is certainly an option. Actually, I just found this: Which implies that the drive type is set by jumpers on the Xebec board. So you probably won't have to figure out the C:H:S mappings manually, assuming the jumpers are set properly. > I was asking since a google returned a message on the kernel > developers list (199? timeframe, 2.0 kernel) complaining about the > nonfunctional xd driver and suggesting it'd be removed in future. Well, either someone's fixed it, or it's been left in the source tree and removed from the kernel config system (make menuconfig). > I still have a set of original RH5.2 install CD's I'll check those > once I find them :-) That should work pretty nicely... assuming the chipset on the PC doesn't do/need anything weird. > Hmmm, maybe an old Minix system could talk to the card :-) od the raw > device to the serial port, then capture the octal data and reassemble > the image file... That's one way to do it, I suppose. I'd sooner use Xmodem (which CRCs in and outbound data) but I guess that's just me... :) -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Oct 6 12:18:06 2009 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2009 17:18:06 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Tetris (on buildings) Message-ID: <469151.86976.qm@web23401.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Hi, Although this video is old (uploaded to YouTube Jan 2007) I thought I would mention it. (I didn't get any hits when searching for "Tetris" in the archives) "Brown's University fourteen-story Sciences Library transformed into a giant video display which allows bystanders to play a game of Tetris which can be seen for several miles." http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tkIRWoo9qrU It's a shame that there's no sound, or music, but it's pretty cool nonetheless. Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From cclist at sydex.com Tue Oct 6 12:24:52 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 06 Oct 2009 10:24:52 -0700 Subject: "Imaging" a MFM drive? In-Reply-To: <4ACB7641.9050309@philpem.me.uk> References: <4affc5e0910060726v44b2c169ic7187b9ac0c87896@mail.gmail.com>, <4ACB6B52.1060608@bitsavers.org>, <4ACB7641.9050309@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4ACB1AF4.1435.F96201B@cclist.sydex.com> On 6 Oct 2009 at 17:54, Philip Pemberton wrote: > If you wanted to write back to the drive, you'd need to handle > precompensation, which would involve increasing the clock rate (the > ST412 and ST506 precompensation value is 12ns according to the OEM > Manual). Unless, that is, you were trying to build a Write-Only > Memory... :) I'd recommend one of the common fixed-point DSPs. Many of these have one or two serial channels that can run at very high rates and feature DMA into large memory spaces. To keep costs low and development simple, I'd probably use a separate uC for handling the control signals. Floppy emulation can go with a simple uC, but fixed disks run at least 10x faster, even though the amount of data per track is roughly the same as a 1.44MB floppy. --Chuck From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Oct 6 12:30:58 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2009 13:30:58 -0400 Subject: Tetris (on buildings) In-Reply-To: <469151.86976.qm@web23401.mail.ird.yahoo.com> References: <469151.86976.qm@web23401.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > Although this video is old (uploaded to YouTube Jan 2007) I thought I would mention it. (I didn't get any hits when searching for "Tetris" in the archives) > > "Brown's University fourteen-story Sciences Library transformed > into a giant video display which allows bystanders to play a game of > Tetris which can be seen for several miles." > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tkIRWoo9qrU > > It's a shame that there's no sound, or music, but it's pretty cool nonetheless. Back in the late 1980s, a classmate of mine that was interning at Johnson Controls in Milwaukee tried to do this, but the lights were just too sluggish for any sort of decent gameplay. Once seeing this, he gave up on the idea, pretty much stillborn. I think most engineering schools at the time had someone like him with the same "Tetris building" idea, but most (all?) gave up or ran into time limits. It would be interesting to see who managed this hack first. -- Will From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Tue Oct 6 12:40:55 2009 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2009 13:40:55 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Tetris (on buildings) In-Reply-To: References: <469151.86976.qm@web23401.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 6 Oct 2009, William Donzelli wrote: > I think most engineering schools at the time had someone like him with > the same "Tetris building" idea, but most (all?) gave up or ran into > time limits. It would be interesting to see who managed this hack > first. I could have sworn that MIT hackers did it, but a little research indicates that it was only done on a scale model on the TMRC layout: http://tmrc.mit.edu/TNP/GC/GreenBuilding.html I remember seeing the layout on a trip to MIT. I'm sure Will has seen it. :-) Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Oct 6 13:08:18 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2009 14:08:18 -0400 Subject: Tetris (on buildings) In-Reply-To: References: <469151.86976.qm@web23401.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > ? I could have sworn that MIT hackers did it, but a little research > indicates that it was only done on a scale model on the TMRC layout: > > http://tmrc.mit.edu/TNP/GC/GreenBuilding.html Well, that sort of doesn't count. For one, it gets around the whole real world light-lag problem. > ? I remember seeing the layout on a trip to MIT. ?I'm sure Will has seen it. > ?:-) Nope. I would probably get beaten up if I saw it. Anyway, thanks for the reminder - I need to get my MIT flea money in today. -- Will From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Oct 6 13:15:16 2009 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Tue, 06 Oct 2009 12:15:16 -0600 Subject: Tetris (on buildings) In-Reply-To: References: <469151.86976.qm@web23401.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4ACB8934.1010904@jetnet.ab.ca> Umm what about strobe lights? From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Oct 6 14:24:28 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2009 12:24:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: XTIDE controller now available In-Reply-To: References: <4AC6B336.6010501@oldskool.org>, <4AC9B693.21667.A2607B4@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20091006122316.M13105@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 6 Oct 2009, Teo Zenios wrote: > I would think an 8bit SCSI version would be cool to have as well, still > plenty of smaller SCSI drives around as well as Iomega and Syquest > removables plus tape drives. Are 8 bit SCSI cards hard to find? From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Oct 6 14:30:29 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2009 15:30:29 -0400 Subject: XTIDE controller now available In-Reply-To: <20091006122316.M13105@shell.lmi.net> References: <4AC6B336.6010501@oldskool.org>, <4AC9B693.21667.A2607B4@cclist.sydex.com> <20091006122316.M13105@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Oct 6, 2009, at 3:24 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >> I would think an 8bit SCSI version would be cool to have as well, >> still >> plenty of smaller SCSI drives around as well as Iomega and Syquest >> removables plus tape drives. > > Are 8 bit SCSI cards hard to find? Quite. 16-bit ISA boards are all over the place though, like the venerable Adaptec 1542 series. I wonder if they will work in an "overhang" configuration in 8-bit slots; I've never tried. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From teoz at neo.rr.com Tue Oct 6 14:36:15 2009 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2009 15:36:15 -0400 Subject: XTIDE controller now available References: <4AC6B336.6010501@oldskool.org>, <4AC9B693.21667.A2607B4@cclist.sydex.com> <20091006122316.M13105@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <9145E9C4ED40419C80C78F28043A38EF@dell8300> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fred Cisin" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, October 06, 2009 3:24 PM Subject: Re: XTIDE controller now available > On Tue, 6 Oct 2009, Teo Zenios wrote: >> I would think an 8bit SCSI version would be cool to have as well, still >> plenty of smaller SCSI drives around as well as Iomega and Syquest >> removables plus tape drives. > > Are 8 bit SCSI cards hard to find? > > Yes, especially ones with a bootable ROM that would work on an XT. I have a few 8 bit ISA SCSI cards without ROM meant to connect CDROMs and other devices like scanners (using drivers). From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Oct 6 16:02:28 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2009 22:02:28 +0100 (BST) Subject: Classic computers endangered! In-Reply-To: from "Ethan Dicks" at Oct 5, 9 04:26:00 pm Message-ID: > Since I have a small number of 74LS83s in my parts bins, I might have > to try that if I end up verifying that I have a dead 7482 on one of my > M220s (from an -8/L, in my case). I can't remember if it will _always_ replace a '82 (there may be enable pins that I've forgotten or something). I can check if you like. > > I think I've seen 74LS83s for sale somewhat recently (at Unicorn or > some similar place). The '283 is much the same device with a saner pinout (power pins in the corners), so you could probably use that too -tony From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Oct 6 16:46:41 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2009 17:46:41 -0400 Subject: Classic computers endangered! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 10/6/09, Tony Duell wrote: >> Since I have a small number of 74LS83s in my parts bins... > > I can't remember if it will _always_ replace a '82 (there may be enable > pins that I've forgotten or something). I can check if you like. If you wish. I can check, too. It would be specifically for repairing a DEC M220 register module for a PDP-8 of the era, so not a general case there, either. >> I think I've seen 74LS83s for sale somewhat recently (at Unicorn or >> some similar place). > > The '283 is much the same device with a saner pinout (power pins in the > corners), so you could probably use that too I think I just ran across a couple of those earlier this year. I'll have to go see what's in my cabinets. I'm not especially worried about the 7482s in particular going bad, but I do have more than one CPU that uses M220 modules, and I'd feel better if I could replace any component on that board without having to scramble (and pay too much in shipping, etc). I'll have to go check the printset, but it wouldn't surprise me that the 7482 is also used in the PDP-11/20. Whatever adder chip is used there, I should have a few of _those_ on hand, too (that machine is one of my next restoration projects). -ethan From evan at snarc.net Tue Oct 6 20:46:17 2009 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Tue, 06 Oct 2009 21:46:17 -0400 Subject: Apple 1 sold recently Message-ID: <4ACBF2E9.1080502@snarc.net> FYI: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=320431509242 From mdavidson1963 at gmail.com Tue Oct 6 22:09:11 2009 From: mdavidson1963 at gmail.com (Mark Davidson) Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2009 20:09:11 -0700 Subject: Apple 1 sold recently In-Reply-To: <4ACBF2E9.1080502@snarc.net> References: <4ACBF2E9.1080502@snarc.net> Message-ID: And someone apparently paid almost $18k for it. Wow. Mark On Tue, Oct 6, 2009 at 6:46 PM, Evan Koblentz wrote: > FYI: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=320431509242 > From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Oct 7 00:34:22 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2009 01:34:22 -0400 Subject: "Imaging" a MFM drive? In-Reply-To: <4ACB5715.4080701@e-bbes.com> References: <4affc5e0910060726v44b2c169ic7187b9ac0c87896@mail.gmail.com> <4ACB5715.4080701@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: On Oct 6, 2009, at 10:41 AM, e.stiebler wrote: > If you don't succeed, and can wait, we just got our boards in from > assembly. We made an (hopfully) universal MFM reader/writer/emulator. > But as usual, we are still fighting software issues. Not even an > idea, when we will be ready for user data. Umm. Wow! -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From evan at snarc.net Wed Oct 7 01:07:56 2009 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Wed, 07 Oct 2009 02:07:56 -0400 Subject: ACM access? Message-ID: <4ACC303C.4040000@snarc.net> Anyone have online ACM access? I'd like to buy a copy of this article: http://portal.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=320966&dl=GUIDE&coll=GUIDE&CFID=55282544&CFTOKEN=95394308 Please respond privately to evan at snarc.net ... thanks. From evan at snarc.net Wed Oct 7 01:23:33 2009 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Wed, 07 Oct 2009 02:23:33 -0400 Subject: Interesting slide show Message-ID: <4ACC33E5.5010203@snarc.net> Found this whilst surfing tonight: http://linuxvm.org/Present/SHARE105/S5007jea.pdf .... it's a randomly interesting history of IBM mainframes. From snhirsch at gmail.com Tue Oct 6 16:59:04 2009 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2009 17:59:04 -0400 (EDT) Subject: "Imaging" a MFM drive? In-Reply-To: <4affc5e0910060917w15318234p88238dd55a11d9d1@mail.gmail.com> References: <4affc5e0910060726v44b2c169ic7187b9ac0c87896@mail.gmail.com> <4ACB676B.4070403@philpem.me.uk> <4affc5e0910060917w15318234p88238dd55a11d9d1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 6 Oct 2009, Joachim Thiemann wrote: >> There are a few things I'd be worried about here... >> ?- You need to know what parameters were used when formatting the drive. >> Usually these will be the ones printed on the drive label (or in the >> instruction book) but sometimes e.g. the cylinder count is reduced to get >> around bad cylinders, and so on. That's only part of the picture. Many of the Xebec MFM/SCSI adapters had their own reserved area on the drive for configuration and bad sector maps. I wouldn't bet money on the raw track/sector format lining up with anything an ISA bus MFM controller would understand. > Yes, dd would be nice, but that assumes a 32-bit machine with a driver > for the card. That is my concern. > > Hmmm, maybe an old Minix system could talk to the card :-) od the raw > device to the serial port, then capture the octal data and reassemble > the image file... Given the above proviso, that's definitely the best bet. If you can address the drive as a raw device it should be possible to figure out offset to start of "real" data. For extra credit, it would be fun to see if a modern SCSI adapter can be made to communicate with the command syntax supported on early Xebec boards. The earlier ones were only kinda, sorta SCSI-1 compliant. I rememember seeing a Linux kernel driver for talking to the Xebec 1410 series, but it was probably more than 10 years ago. Steve -- From snhirsch at gmail.com Tue Oct 6 17:03:58 2009 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2009 18:03:58 -0400 (EDT) Subject: "Imaging" a MFM drive? In-Reply-To: <4ACB7641.9050309@philpem.me.uk> References: <4affc5e0910060726v44b2c169ic7187b9ac0c87896@mail.gmail.com> <4ACB5715.4080701@e-bbes.com> <4ACB6B52.1060608@bitsavers.org> <4ACB7641.9050309@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: On Tue, 6 Oct 2009, Philip Pemberton wrote: >> I had been wondering this weekend if a Catweasel had high enough timer >> resolution for a ST-412 era data stream. > > I did some back-of-the-envelope calculations a while ago -- > > An ST412 will allow a maximum of 5e6 flux transitions per second. > 1/5e6 = 200 nanoseconds between two flux transitions (worst case) > > The Catweasel's clock oscillator is switchable between: > - 7.080MHz > - 14.161MHz > - 28.332MHz (Mk3 and Mk4 only) > > Which gives a timing resolution of: > - 7.080MHz -- 141.2429 nanoseconds > - 14.161MHz -- 70.6165 nanoseconds > - 28.332MHz -- 35.2958 nanoseconds According to the Catweasel IV+ documentation, there is a 56Mhz clock available. Not sure if that's new for that version or not. Steve -- From snhirsch at gmail.com Tue Oct 6 17:08:36 2009 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2009 18:08:36 -0400 (EDT) Subject: "Imaging" a MFM drive? In-Reply-To: <4ACB5715.4080701@e-bbes.com> References: <4affc5e0910060726v44b2c169ic7187b9ac0c87896@mail.gmail.com> <4ACB5715.4080701@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 6 Oct 2009, e.stiebler wrote: > If you don't succeed, and can wait, we just got our boards in from assembly. > We made an (hopfully) universal MFM reader/writer/emulator. > But as usual, we are still fighting software issues. Not even an idea, > when we will be ready for user data. I could use a number of these, depending upon the price. Any guesstimates? I'll only hold you to the same order-of-magnitude :-). Steve -- From DavidNoack at aol.com Tue Oct 6 19:04:15 2009 From: DavidNoack at aol.com (DavidNoack at aol.com) Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2009 20:04:15 EDT Subject: IBM 4865 (External 3.5" floppy) Message-ID: How can I connect an IBM 4865 external disk drive to an IBM PC 5150? Thanks, Dave From geoffr at zipcon.net Wed Oct 7 02:27:56 2009 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoffrey Reed) Date: Wed, 07 Oct 2009 00:27:56 -0700 Subject: XTIDE controller now available In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 10/6/09 12:30 PM, "Dave McGuire" wrote: >> Are 8 bit SCSI cards hard to find? > > Quite. 16-bit ISA boards are all over the place though, like the > venerable Adaptec 1542 series. I wonder if they will work in an > "overhang" configuration in 8-bit slots; I've never tried. > > -Dave IIRC, there are some that would work that way, but it was dependant on the BIOS rom version. From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Wed Oct 7 02:43:24 2009 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2009 09:43:24 +0200 Subject: Tetris (on buildings) In-Reply-To: References: <469151.86976.qm@web23401.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20091007094324.56e5a5e9.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Tue, 6 Oct 2009 13:30:58 -0400 William Donzelli wrote: > It would be interesting to see who managed this hack first. Maybe not the first, but they did it in 2001: http://www.blinkenlights.net/ -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From emu at e-bbes.com Wed Oct 7 09:23:06 2009 From: emu at e-bbes.com (e.stiebler) Date: Wed, 07 Oct 2009 08:23:06 -0600 Subject: "Imaging" a MFM drive? In-Reply-To: <20091006170832.017b12c6.lehmann@ans-netz.de> References: <4affc5e0910060726v44b2c169ic7187b9ac0c87896@mail.gmail.com> <4ACB5715.4080701@e-bbes.com> <20091006170832.017b12c6.lehmann@ans-netz.de> Message-ID: <4ACCA44A.6000606@e-bbes.com> Oliver Lehmann wrote: > e.stiebler wrote: >> We made an (hopfully) universal MFM reader/writer/emulator. >> But as usual, we are still fighting software issues. Not even an idea, >> when we will be ready for user data. > Any more facts available? Online? Sorry, nothing online yet :( > I'm asking because I guess quite some people might be interested in this. > I only know of solutions for replacing specific ST506 interface harddisk > (no "generic" replacement) and even those are kinda expensive. Yes, I know. That's what triggered our curiosity ;-) > I guess it must have a quite decent microprocessor to emulate it. Yes. > What > real storage will be used to save the data on? CF-card, SD-card or > something? I fear this because they are not that good when it comes to > many reads and writes (I have systems where the swap is for example on a > MFM harddisk as well...) We hope to get away with flash. But an ide drive is an option. However, we have caches on board. Cheers From evan at snarc.net Wed Oct 7 12:37:57 2009 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Wed, 07 Oct 2009 13:37:57 -0400 Subject: ACM access? In-Reply-To: <4ACC303C.4040000@snarc.net> References: <4ACC303C.4040000@snarc.net> Message-ID: <4ACCD1F5.3030505@snarc.net> Several people replied -- thank you -- all set now. --------------------------------------------- > Anyone have online ACM access? I'd like to buy a copy of this article: > http://portal.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=320966&dl=GUIDE&coll=GUIDE&CFID=55282544&CFTOKEN=95394308 > > > Please respond privately to evan at snarc.net ... thanks. > From pat at computer-refuge.org Wed Oct 7 13:06:08 2009 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2009 14:06:08 -0400 Subject: SCIPP 1600 info? Message-ID: <200910071406.08704.pat@computer-refuge.org> Does anyone know anything about a Tullamore/Victoreen SCIPP 1600? I have found one of these, and it appears to be some sort of computer- based "analyzer" from the 70s, but I can't find much using google, besides references in papers to having used one. A few crappy pics here: http://www.flickr.com/photos/vax-o-matic/sets/72157622536984302/ Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From cclist at sydex.com Wed Oct 7 13:30:50 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 07 Oct 2009 11:30:50 -0700 Subject: SCIPP 1600 info? In-Reply-To: <200910071406.08704.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <200910071406.08704.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <4ACC7BEA.20938.14F8E0CC@cclist.sydex.com> On 7 Oct 2009 at 14:06, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > Does anyone know anything about a Tullamore/Victoreen SCIPP 1600? I > have found one of these, and it appears to be some sort of computer- > based "analyzer" from the 70s, but I can't find much using google, > besides references in papers to having used one. I know Victoreen mostly for their geiger counters, so I suspect that this is something having to do with the nuclear biz. The obit of the founder: http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1P2-4094525.html Seems to support the radiation angle. --Chuck From pat at computer-refuge.org Wed Oct 7 15:16:48 2009 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2009 16:16:48 -0400 Subject: Chatsworth OMR-2000 opinions? Message-ID: <200910071616.48346.pat@computer-refuge.org> Does anyone have any opinions on a Chatsworth OMR-2000 as a punch-card reader? I've got some cards that I want to read in, and found this. The price is a bit more than I wanted to spend, but it looks maybe nicer than the ones that became surplus (Documation?) after the 2000 US election debacle. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Oct 7 22:12:18 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2009 20:12:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: IBM 4865 (External 3.5" floppy) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20091007200506.T75200@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 6 Oct 2009 DavidNoack at aol.com wrote: > How can I connect an IBM 4865 external disk drive to an IBM PC 5150? To the D37 connector on the back of the floppy disk controller board Unless you run third party drivers, you will need to use DOS 3.20 or above. You will need to use driver.sys (/F:2) for DOS to understand the drive. If you are NOT using the OEM IBM BIOS, then you can use DRVPARM (DRVPARM is present in both PC-DOS and MS-DOS 3.20 (undocumented in PC-DOS), but will not be recognized if you have the OEM IBM 5150 or 5160 BIOS) When formatting, specify /T:80/N:9 Later DOS permits /F:720 From snhirsch at gmail.com Wed Oct 7 06:00:55 2009 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2009 07:00:55 -0400 (EDT) Subject: HP/UX 9.x (Was: DEC and HP hardware to go in Europe) In-Reply-To: <47502E29932.000003F5n0body.h0me@inbox.com> References: <4ac8cf8e.8000900@bitsavers.org> <3aa626f2dbe.000003f9n0body.h0me@inbox.com> <02118665d76c4cb6b1ba373ee3851852@xp1800> <41094a2c5c8.000009c5n0body.h0me@inbox.com> <47502E29932.000003F5n0body.h0me@inbox.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 6 Oct 2009, N0body H0me wrote: > Oh, so TAMS actually owns that IP, then. That's interesting, I > would have thought HP would have used what I call the 'Scorched IP' > approach, kinda like: > > "Sorry, you can't have that version, it's no longer supported. It > is not freely available, we will not make it freely available, and > we will hunt down and kill anyone who illegally distributes or attempts > to distribute it." And the corollary to that: "..sorry, we no longer have the software nor sources..". As if they ran out of floor-space to store it on :-). Steve -- From trash3 at splab.cas.neu.edu Thu Oct 8 07:33:30 2009 From: trash3 at splab.cas.neu.edu (joe heck) Date: Thu, 08 Oct 2009 08:33:30 -0400 Subject: FREE VAX/VMS MANUALS Message-ID: <4ACDDC1A.8050008@splab.cas.neu.edu> I have the following, many unopened. free for pickup only, going in recycle next Wednesday morning. Wrentham, MA notice the mix of a few "B" versions... M1A AA-LA23A-TE VMS System Management Master Index M1A AA-LA23B-TE VMS System Management Master Index M1A AA-LA24A-TE Introduction to VMS System Management M1A AA-LA25A-TE Guide to Setting Up a VMS System M1A AA-LA26A-TE VMS SYSMAN Utility Manual M1A AA-LA26B-TE VMS SYSMAN Utility Manual M1B AA-LA27B-TE VMS VAXcluster Manual M1B AA-LA28A-TE VMS Exchange Utility Manual M1B AA-LA29A-TE VMS Install Utility Manual M1B AA-LA30A-TE VMS System Generation Utility Manual M1B AA-LA31A-TE VMS Terminal Fallback Utility Manual M1B AA-LA32A-TE VMS LAT Control Program (LATCP) Manual M2 AA-LA34A-TE Guide to Maintaining a VMS System M2 AA-LA35A-TE VMS Backup Utility Manual M2 AA-LA36A-TE VMS Bad Block Locator Utility Manual M2 AA-LA37A-TE VMS Error Log Utility Manual M2 AA-LA38A-TE VMS Mount Utility Manual M2 AA-LA39A-TE VMS Analyze/Disk_Structure Utility Manual M3 AA-LA40A-TE Guide to VMS System Security M3 AA-LA41A-TE VMS Access Control List Editor Manual M3 AA-LA42A-TE VMS Authorize Utility Manual M4 AA-LA43A-TE Guide to VMS Performance Management M4 AA-LA44A-TE VMS Accounting Utility Manual M4 AA-LA45A-TE VMS Monitor Utility Manual M4 AA-LA46A-TE VMS Show Cluster Utility Manual M5A AA-LA47A-TE Guide to DECnet-VAX Networking M5A AA-LA48A-TE VMS Networking Manual M5B AA-LA49A-TE VMS DECnet Test Sender/DECnet Test Receiver Utility Manual M5B AA-LA50A-TE VMS Network Control Program Manual P1 AA-LA56A-TE VMS Programming Master Index P1 AA-LA57A-TE Guide to VMS Programming Resources P1 AA-LA58A-TE Guide to Creating VMS Modular Procedures P2A AA-LA59A-TE VMS Debugger Manual P2B AA-LA60A-TE VMS Command Definition Utility Manual P2B AA-LA61A-TE VMS Librarian Utility Manual P2B AA-LA62A-TE VMS Linker Utility Manual P2B AA-LA63A-TE VMS Message Utility Manual P2B AA-LA64A-TE VMS Patch Utility Manual P2B AA-LA65A-TE VMS SUMSLP Utility Manual P3 AA-LA66A-T Introduction to VMS System Routines P3 AA-LA67A-T VMS Utility Routines Manual P4A AA-LA68A-T Introduction to VMS System Services P4B AA-LA69A-T VMS System Services Reference Manual P5A AA-LA70A-T Introduction to the VMS Run-Time Library P5A AA-LA71A-T VMS RTL DECtalk (DTK$) Manual P5A AA-LA73A-T VMS RTL General Purpose (OTS$) Manual P5A AA-LA72A-T VMS RTL Mathematics (MTH$) Manual P5A AA-LA74A-T VMS RTL Parallel Processing (PPL$) Manual P5B AA-LA76A-TE VMS RTL Library (LIB$) Manual P5C AA-LA77A-TE VMS RTL Screen Management (SMG$) Manual P5C AA-LA75A-TE VMS RTL String Manipulation (STR$) Manual P6A AA-LA78A-TE Guide to VMS Files and Devices P6A AA-LA79A-TE VMS Analyze/RMS_File Utility Manual P6A AA-LA80A-TE VMS Convert and Convert/Reclaim Utility Manual P6A AA-LA81A-TE VMS File Definition Language Facility Manual P6A AA-LA82A-TE VMS National Character Set Utility Manual P6B AA-LA83A-TE VMS Record Management Services Manual P7A AA-LA84A-TE VMS I/O User's Reference Manual: Part 1 P7A AA-LA85A-TE VMS I/O User's Reference Manual: Part 2 P7B AA-LA86A-TE VMS Delta/XDelta Utility Manual P7B AA-LA87A-TE VMS System Dump Analyzer Utility Manual P8 AA-LA88A-TE VMS Device Support Manual P9 AA-LA89A-TE VAX MACRO and Instruction Set Reference Manual U1 AA-LA01A-TE VMS Master Index U1 AA-LA02A-TE VMS General User Master Index U1 AA-LA03A-TE VMS Glossary U2B AA-LA07A-TE VMS Mail Utility Manual U2B AA-LA08A-TE VMS Phone Utility Manual U2B AA-LA09A-TE VMS Sort/Merge Utility Manual U6A AA-LA17A-TE VMS System Messages and Recovery Procedures Reference Manual: Part 1 AA-LB25A-TE OBSOLETE FEATURES MANUAL EY-1367E-HO-0001 VAX/VMS PERFORMANCE MANAGEMENT STUDENT WORKBOOK (1982) QA-001AY-G25.0 RELEASE NOTES KIT AA-G139B-TE GUIDE TO VAX SPM (6/89) AA-R580D-TE VAX SPM REFERANCE MANUAL (6/89) AA-JH90D-TE VAX SPM INSTALLATION GUIDE (4/89) AA-X088H-TE VAX SPM RELEASE NOTES Joe Heck From trash3 at splab.cas.neu.edu Thu Oct 8 07:46:39 2009 From: trash3 at splab.cas.neu.edu (joe heck) Date: Thu, 08 Oct 2009 08:46:39 -0400 Subject: Free VAX/Alpha hardware Message-ID: <4ACDDF2F.9090805@splab.cas.neu.edu> I have the following equpment free for pick up. All or nothing deal. Wrentham, MA. It's going to the scrapper next Wednesday. two VAX 4000-100 two AlphaServer 400 4/233 complete and working when I shut them down a few years ago two VT520 one VR160 MicroVAX 3100 BA42A storage expansion BA360 with 4 drives MicroVAX I, I believe complete, I never powered it up MicroVAX II box/power supply/backplane only, no drives or boards Joe Heck From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Oct 8 09:08:07 2009 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2009 07:08:07 -0700 Subject: Free VAX/Alpha hardware In-Reply-To: <4ACDDF2F.9090805@splab.cas.neu.edu> References: <4ACDDF2F.9090805@splab.cas.neu.edu> Message-ID: Is there anyone close by that can rescue this and the doc's? This stuff is for the most part worth rescuing. The MicroVAX I and II can be converted into a PDP-11 if so desired. I think MicroVAX I's are moderately rare. Though since this is in MA, they might not be back there. Question is there such a thing as a BA360? I suspect it is a typo, and it's a BA350, but I don't know. I'm not even collecting anymore, but if I was local, I'd be going after this. Zane At 8:46 AM -0400 10/8/09, joe heck wrote: >I have the following equpment free for pick up. All or nothing >deal. Wrentham, MA. It's going to the scrapper next Wednesday. > >two VAX 4000-100 >two AlphaServer 400 4/233 complete and working when I shut them >down a few years ago >two VT520 >one VR160 > >MicroVAX 3100 >BA42A storage expansion >BA360 with 4 drives >MicroVAX I, I believe complete, I never powered it up >MicroVAX II box/power supply/backplane only, no drives or boards > >Joe Heck -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Oct 8 09:14:32 2009 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2009 07:14:32 -0700 Subject: FREE VAX/VMS MANUALS In-Reply-To: <4ACDDC1A.8050008@splab.cas.neu.edu> References: <4ACDDC1A.8050008@splab.cas.neu.edu> Message-ID: I just googled one of the #'s. Looks like this is a Grey Wall. Still nice to have if you don't have a newer set of Doc's. Zane At 8:33 AM -0400 10/8/09, joe heck wrote: >I have the following, many unopened. free for pickup only, going in >recycle next Wednesday morning. Wrentham, MA > > >notice the mix of a few "B" versions... > >M1A AA-LA23A-TE VMS System Management Master Index >M1A AA-LA23B-TE VMS System Management Master Index >M1A AA-LA24A-TE Introduction to VMS System Management >M1A AA-LA25A-TE Guide to Setting Up a VMS System >M1A AA-LA26A-TE VMS SYSMAN Utility Manual >M1A AA-LA26B-TE VMS SYSMAN Utility Manual > > >M1B AA-LA27B-TE VMS VAXcluster Manual >M1B AA-LA28A-TE VMS Exchange Utility Manual >M1B AA-LA29A-TE VMS Install Utility Manual >M1B AA-LA30A-TE VMS System Generation Utility Manual >M1B AA-LA31A-TE VMS Terminal Fallback Utility Manual >M1B AA-LA32A-TE VMS LAT Control Program (LATCP) Manual > >M2 AA-LA34A-TE Guide to Maintaining a VMS System >M2 AA-LA35A-TE VMS Backup Utility Manual >M2 AA-LA36A-TE VMS Bad Block Locator Utility Manual >M2 AA-LA37A-TE VMS Error Log Utility Manual >M2 AA-LA38A-TE VMS Mount Utility Manual >M2 AA-LA39A-TE VMS Analyze/Disk_Structure Utility Manual > >M3 AA-LA40A-TE Guide to VMS System Security >M3 AA-LA41A-TE VMS Access Control List Editor Manual >M3 AA-LA42A-TE VMS Authorize Utility Manual > > >M4 AA-LA43A-TE Guide to VMS Performance Management >M4 AA-LA44A-TE VMS Accounting Utility Manual >M4 AA-LA45A-TE VMS Monitor Utility Manual >M4 AA-LA46A-TE VMS Show Cluster Utility Manual > >M5A AA-LA47A-TE Guide to DECnet-VAX Networking >M5A AA-LA48A-TE VMS Networking Manual > >M5B AA-LA49A-TE VMS DECnet Test Sender/DECnet Test Receiver >Utility Manual >M5B AA-LA50A-TE VMS Network Control Program Manual > > > >P1 AA-LA56A-TE VMS Programming Master Index >P1 AA-LA57A-TE Guide to VMS Programming Resources >P1 AA-LA58A-TE Guide to Creating VMS Modular Procedures > >P2A AA-LA59A-TE VMS Debugger Manual > >P2B AA-LA60A-TE VMS Command Definition Utility Manual >P2B AA-LA61A-TE VMS Librarian Utility Manual >P2B AA-LA62A-TE VMS Linker Utility Manual >P2B AA-LA63A-TE VMS Message Utility Manual >P2B AA-LA64A-TE VMS Patch Utility Manual >P2B AA-LA65A-TE VMS SUMSLP Utility Manual > >P3 AA-LA66A-T Introduction to VMS System Routines >P3 AA-LA67A-T VMS Utility Routines Manual > >P4A AA-LA68A-T Introduction to VMS System Services >P4B AA-LA69A-T VMS System Services Reference Manual > >P5A AA-LA70A-T Introduction to the VMS Run-Time Library >P5A AA-LA71A-T VMS RTL DECtalk (DTK$) Manual >P5A AA-LA73A-T VMS RTL General Purpose (OTS$) Manual >P5A AA-LA72A-T VMS RTL Mathematics (MTH$) Manual >P5A AA-LA74A-T VMS RTL Parallel Processing (PPL$) Manual > >P5B AA-LA76A-TE VMS RTL Library (LIB$) Manual > >P5C AA-LA77A-TE VMS RTL Screen Management (SMG$) Manual >P5C AA-LA75A-TE VMS RTL String Manipulation (STR$) Manual > >P6A AA-LA78A-TE Guide to VMS Files and Devices >P6A AA-LA79A-TE VMS Analyze/RMS_File Utility Manual >P6A AA-LA80A-TE VMS Convert and Convert/Reclaim Utility Manual >P6A AA-LA81A-TE VMS File Definition Language Facility Manual >P6A AA-LA82A-TE VMS National Character Set Utility Manual > >P6B AA-LA83A-TE VMS Record Management Services Manual > >P7A AA-LA84A-TE VMS I/O User's Reference Manual: Part 1 >P7A AA-LA85A-TE VMS I/O User's Reference Manual: Part 2 > >P7B AA-LA86A-TE VMS Delta/XDelta Utility Manual >P7B AA-LA87A-TE VMS System Dump Analyzer Utility Manual > >P8 AA-LA88A-TE VMS Device Support Manual > >P9 AA-LA89A-TE VAX MACRO and Instruction Set Reference Manual > > > > >U1 AA-LA01A-TE VMS Master Index >U1 AA-LA02A-TE VMS General User Master Index >U1 AA-LA03A-TE VMS Glossary > > >U2B AA-LA07A-TE VMS Mail Utility Manual >U2B AA-LA08A-TE VMS Phone Utility Manual >U2B AA-LA09A-TE VMS Sort/Merge Utility Manual > >U6A AA-LA17A-TE VMS System Messages and Recovery Procedures >Reference Manual: Part 1 > > >AA-LB25A-TE OBSOLETE FEATURES MANUAL >EY-1367E-HO-0001 VAX/VMS PERFORMANCE MANAGEMENT STUDENT WORKBOOK (1982) >QA-001AY-G25.0 RELEASE NOTES KIT >AA-G139B-TE GUIDE TO VAX SPM (6/89) >AA-R580D-TE VAX SPM REFERANCE MANUAL (6/89) >AA-JH90D-TE VAX SPM INSTALLATION GUIDE (4/89) >AA-X088H-TE VAX SPM RELEASE NOTES > >Joe Heck -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Oct 8 09:48:01 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2009 10:48:01 -0400 Subject: Free VAX/Alpha hardware In-Reply-To: References: <4ACDDF2F.9090805@splab.cas.neu.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, Oct 8, 2009 at 10:08 AM, Zane H. Healy wrote: > Is there anyone close by that can rescue this and the doc's? Not me. Too far. >?This stuff is for the most part worth rescuing. ? ?The MicroVAX I and II can be converted > into a PDP-11 if so desired. I was going to do that myself, but I recently came into a fully working original-model (KDF11) MicroPDP-11, so I'm going to focus on that now (it has 2x MSV11PK for 512K of memory, an RQDX1, and an RD51 (10MB) - at least until I pull some newer cards/disks off the shelf). > ?I think MicroVAX I's are moderately rare. > ?Though since this is in MA, they might not be back there. They were uncommon but not unknown here in Ohio... I got one from a former employer, and another that was DEC-upgraded to a MicroVAX-II (for something like $17,000) when those were new. Since then, though, I've only ever run across one other. Lots of MicroVAX-IIs. This reminds me that I still need to take some time to image my MicroVMS distro floppies. I'm sure they aren't unique, but I'm not sure where I'd get uVMS from the 'net (and ISTR, there are no versions of full VMS that fit on an RD51 or RD52). -ethan From ajp166 at verizon.net Thu Oct 8 10:20:12 2009 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Thu, 08 Oct 2009 11:20:12 -0400 Subject: Free VAX/Alpha hardware In-Reply-To: References: <4ACDDF2F.9090805@splab.cas.neu.edu> Message-ID: <4ACE032C.9080005@verizon.net> I am close enough but there is no way I can store all that indoors. Allison Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Thu, Oct 8, 2009 at 10:08 AM, Zane H. Healy wrote: > >> Is there anyone close by that can rescue this and the doc's? >> > > Not me. Too far. > > >> This stuff is for the most part worth rescuing. The MicroVAX I and II can be converted >> into a PDP-11 if so desired. >> > > I was going to do that myself, but I recently came into a fully > working original-model (KDF11) MicroPDP-11, so I'm going to focus on > that now (it has 2x MSV11PK for 512K of memory, an RQDX1, and an RD51 > (10MB) - at least until I pull some newer cards/disks off the shelf). > > >> I think MicroVAX I's are moderately rare. >> Though since this is in MA, they might not be back there. >> > > They were uncommon but not unknown here in Ohio... I got one from a > former employer, and another that was DEC-upgraded to a MicroVAX-II > (for something like $17,000) when those were new. Since then, though, > I've only ever run across one other. Lots of MicroVAX-IIs. > > This reminds me that I still need to take some time to image my > MicroVMS distro floppies. I'm sure they aren't unique, but I'm not > sure where I'd get uVMS from the 'net (and ISTR, there are no versions > of full VMS that fit on an RD51 or RD52). > > -ethan > > From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Oct 8 10:45:08 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2009 11:45:08 -0400 Subject: Free VAX/Alpha hardware In-Reply-To: References: <4ACDDF2F.9090805@splab.cas.neu.edu> Message-ID: On Oct 8, 2009, at 10:08 AM, Zane H. Healy wrote: > Is there anyone close by that can rescue this and the doc's? This > stuff is for the most part worth rescuing. The MicroVAX I and II > can be converted into a PDP-11 if so desired. I think MicroVAX I's > are moderately rare. Though since this is in MA, they might not be > back there. The MicroVAX-I is pretty rare, yes. The -II, though, of course not. It should still be saved from the scrapper though. > Question is there such a thing as a BA360? I suspect it is a typo, > and it's a BA350, but I don't know. I've never heard of a BA360. -Dave > -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Oct 8 10:45:45 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2009 11:45:45 -0400 Subject: FREE VAX/VMS MANUALS In-Reply-To: References: <4ACDDC1A.8050008@splab.cas.neu.edu> Message-ID: But is it a *complete* Gray Wall? Anyone know? -Dave On Oct 8, 2009, at 10:14 AM, Zane H. Healy wrote: > I just googled one of the #'s. Looks like this is a Grey Wall. > Still nice to have if you don't have a newer set of Doc's. > > Zane > > > > At 8:33 AM -0400 10/8/09, joe heck wrote: >> I have the following, many unopened. free for pickup only, going >> in recycle next Wednesday morning. Wrentham, MA >> >> >> notice the mix of a few "B" versions... >> >> M1A AA-LA23A-TE VMS System Management Master Index >> M1A AA-LA23B-TE VMS System Management Master Index >> M1A AA-LA24A-TE Introduction to VMS System Management >> M1A AA-LA25A-TE Guide to Setting Up a VMS System >> M1A AA-LA26A-TE VMS SYSMAN Utility Manual >> M1A AA-LA26B-TE VMS SYSMAN Utility Manual >> >> >> M1B AA-LA27B-TE VMS VAXcluster Manual >> M1B AA-LA28A-TE VMS Exchange Utility Manual >> M1B AA-LA29A-TE VMS Install Utility Manual >> M1B AA-LA30A-TE VMS System Generation Utility Manual >> M1B AA-LA31A-TE VMS Terminal Fallback Utility Manual >> M1B AA-LA32A-TE VMS LAT Control Program (LATCP) Manual >> >> M2 AA-LA34A-TE Guide to Maintaining a VMS System >> M2 AA-LA35A-TE VMS Backup Utility Manual >> M2 AA-LA36A-TE VMS Bad Block Locator Utility Manual >> M2 AA-LA37A-TE VMS Error Log Utility Manual >> M2 AA-LA38A-TE VMS Mount Utility Manual >> M2 AA-LA39A-TE VMS Analyze/Disk_Structure Utility Manual >> >> M3 AA-LA40A-TE Guide to VMS System Security >> M3 AA-LA41A-TE VMS Access Control List Editor Manual >> M3 AA-LA42A-TE VMS Authorize Utility Manual >> >> >> M4 AA-LA43A-TE Guide to VMS Performance Management >> M4 AA-LA44A-TE VMS Accounting Utility Manual >> M4 AA-LA45A-TE VMS Monitor Utility Manual >> M4 AA-LA46A-TE VMS Show Cluster Utility Manual >> >> M5A AA-LA47A-TE Guide to DECnet-VAX Networking >> M5A AA-LA48A-TE VMS Networking Manual >> >> M5B AA-LA49A-TE VMS DECnet Test Sender/DECnet Test Receiver >> Utility Manual >> M5B AA-LA50A-TE VMS Network Control Program Manual >> >> >> >> P1 AA-LA56A-TE VMS Programming Master Index >> P1 AA-LA57A-TE Guide to VMS Programming Resources >> P1 AA-LA58A-TE Guide to Creating VMS Modular Procedures >> >> P2A AA-LA59A-TE VMS Debugger Manual >> >> P2B AA-LA60A-TE VMS Command Definition Utility Manual >> P2B AA-LA61A-TE VMS Librarian Utility Manual >> P2B AA-LA62A-TE VMS Linker Utility Manual >> P2B AA-LA63A-TE VMS Message Utility Manual >> P2B AA-LA64A-TE VMS Patch Utility Manual >> P2B AA-LA65A-TE VMS SUMSLP Utility Manual >> >> P3 AA-LA66A-T Introduction to VMS System Routines >> P3 AA-LA67A-T VMS Utility Routines Manual >> >> P4A AA-LA68A-T Introduction to VMS System Services >> P4B AA-LA69A-T VMS System Services Reference Manual >> >> P5A AA-LA70A-T Introduction to the VMS Run-Time Library >> P5A AA-LA71A-T VMS RTL DECtalk (DTK$) Manual >> P5A AA-LA73A-T VMS RTL General Purpose (OTS$) Manual >> P5A AA-LA72A-T VMS RTL Mathematics (MTH$) Manual >> P5A AA-LA74A-T VMS RTL Parallel Processing (PPL$) Manual >> >> P5B AA-LA76A-TE VMS RTL Library (LIB$) Manual >> >> P5C AA-LA77A-TE VMS RTL Screen Management (SMG$) Manual >> P5C AA-LA75A-TE VMS RTL String Manipulation (STR$) Manual >> >> P6A AA-LA78A-TE Guide to VMS Files and Devices >> P6A AA-LA79A-TE VMS Analyze/RMS_File Utility Manual >> P6A AA-LA80A-TE VMS Convert and Convert/Reclaim Utility Manual >> P6A AA-LA81A-TE VMS File Definition Language Facility Manual >> P6A AA-LA82A-TE VMS National Character Set Utility Manual >> >> P6B AA-LA83A-TE VMS Record Management Services Manual >> >> P7A AA-LA84A-TE VMS I/O User's Reference Manual: Part 1 >> P7A AA-LA85A-TE VMS I/O User's Reference Manual: Part 2 >> >> P7B AA-LA86A-TE VMS Delta/XDelta Utility Manual >> P7B AA-LA87A-TE VMS System Dump Analyzer Utility Manual >> >> P8 AA-LA88A-TE VMS Device Support Manual >> >> P9 AA-LA89A-TE VAX MACRO and Instruction Set Reference Manual >> >> >> >> >> U1 AA-LA01A-TE VMS Master Index >> U1 AA-LA02A-TE VMS General User Master Index >> U1 AA-LA03A-TE VMS Glossary >> >> >> U2B AA-LA07A-TE VMS Mail Utility Manual >> U2B AA-LA08A-TE VMS Phone Utility Manual >> U2B AA-LA09A-TE VMS Sort/Merge Utility Manual >> >> U6A AA-LA17A-TE VMS System Messages and Recovery Procedures >> Reference Manual: Part 1 >> >> >> AA-LB25A-TE OBSOLETE FEATURES MANUAL >> EY-1367E-HO-0001 VAX/VMS PERFORMANCE MANAGEMENT STUDENT WORKBOOK >> (1982) >> QA-001AY-G25.0 RELEASE NOTES KIT >> AA-G139B-TE GUIDE TO VAX SPM (6/89) >> AA-R580D-TE VAX SPM REFERANCE MANUAL (6/89) >> AA-JH90D-TE VAX SPM INSTALLATION GUIDE (4/89) >> AA-X088H-TE VAX SPM RELEASE NOTES >> >> Joe Heck > > > -- > | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | > | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | > | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | > +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ > | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | > | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | > | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Oct 8 10:52:23 2009 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 08 Oct 2009 08:52:23 -0700 Subject: FREE VAX/VMS MANUALS In-Reply-To: References: <4ACDDC1A.8050008@splab.cas.neu.edu> Message-ID: <4ACE0AB7.8090205@bitsavers.org> Dave McGuire wrote: > > But is it a *complete* Gray Wall? Anyone know? > VMS 5.0 Documentation Set (April 1988) System Management Subkit ------------------------ M1A AA-LA23A-TE VMS System Management Master Index M1A AA-LA24A-TE Introduction to VMS System Management M1A AA-LA25A-TE Guide to Setting Up a VMS System M1A AA-LA26A-TE VMS SYSMAN Utility Manual M1B AA-LA27A-TE VMS VAXcluster Manual M1B AA-LA28A-TE VMS Exchange Utility Manual M1B AA-LA29A-TE VMS Install Utility Manual M1B AA-LA30A-TE VMS System Generation Utility Manual M1B AA-LA31A-TE VMS Terminal Fallback Utility Manual M1B AA-LA32A-TE VMS LAT Control Program (LATCP) Manual M2 AA-LA34A-TE Guide to Maintaining a VMS System M2 AA-LA35A-TE VMS Backup Utility Manual M2 AA-LA36A-TE VMS Bad Block Locator Utility Manual M2 AA-LA37A-TE VMS Error Log Utility Manual M2 AA-LA38A-TE VMS Mount Utility Manual M2 AA-LA39A-TE VMS Analyze/Disk_Structure Utility Manual M3 AA-LA40A-TE Guide to VMS System Security M3 AA-LA41A-TE VMS Access Control List Editor Manual M3 AA-LA42A-TE VMS Authorize Utility Manual M3 AA-NG63A-TE VMS Audit Analysis Utility Manual (5.2 Jun89) M4 Guide to VMS Performance Management M4 VMS Accounting Utility Manual M4 VMS Monitor Utility Manual M4 VMS Show Cluster Utility Manual M5A AA-LA47A-TE Guide to DECnet-VAX Networking M5A AA-LA48A-TE VMS Networking Manual M5B AA-LA49A-TE VMS DECnet Test Sender/DECnet Test Receiver Utility Manual M5B AA-LA50A-TE VMS Network Control Program Manual Programming Subkit ------------------ P1 AA-LA56A-TE VMS Programming Master Index P1 AA-LA57A-TE Guide to VMS Programming Resources P1 AA-LA58A-TE Guide to Creating VMS Modular Procedures P2A VMS Debugger Manual P2B VMS Command Definition Utility Manual P2B VMS Librarian Utility Manual P2B VMS Linker Utility Manual P2B VMS Message Utility Manual P2B VMS Patch Utility Manual P2B VMS SUMSLP Utility Manual P3 Introduction to VMS System Routines P3 VMS Utility Routines Manual P4A Introduction to VMS System Services P4B VMS System Services Reference Manual P5A Introduction to the VMS Run-Time Library P5A VMS RTL DECtalk (DTK$) Manual P5A VMS RTL General Purpose (OTS$) Manual P5A VMS RTL Mathematics (MTH$) Manual P5A VMS RTL Parallel Processing (PPL$) Manual P5B AA-LA76A-TE VMS RTL Library (LIB$) Manual P5C VMS RTL Screen Management (SMG$) Manual P5C VMS RTL String Manipulation (STR$) Manual P6A Guide to VMS Files and Devices P6A VMS Analyze/RMS_File Utility Manual P6A VMS Convert and Convert/Reclaim Utility Manual P6A VMS File Definition Language Facility Manual P6A VMS National Character Set Utility Manual P6B VMS Record Management Services Manual P7A AA-LA84A-TE VMS I/O User's Reference Manual: Part 1 P7A AA-LA85A-TE VMS I/O User's Reference Manual: Part 2 P7B VMS Delta/XDelta Utility Manual P7B VMS System Dump Analyzer Utility Manual P8 VMS Device Support Manual P9 AA-LA89A-TE VAX MACRO and Instruction Set Reference Manual General User Subkit ------------------- U1 AA-LA01A-TE VMS Master Index U1 AA-LA02A-TE VMS General User Master Index U1 AA-LA03A-TE VMS Glossary U2A AA-LA04A-TE Introduction to VMS U2A AA-LA05A-TE Guide to Using VMS U2A AA-LA06A-TE Guide to VMS Files and Devices U2B VMS Mail Utility Manual U2B AA-LA08A-TE VMS Phone Utility Manual U2B AA-LA09A-TE VMS Sort/Merge Utility Manual U3 AA-LA10A-TE VMS DCL Concepts Manual U3 AA-LA11A-TE Guide to Using VMS Command Procedures U4 AA-LA12A-TE VMS DCL Dictionary U5A AA-LA13A-TE Guide to VMS Text Processing U5A AA-LA16A-TE VAX EDT Reference Manual U5B VMS Text Processing Utility Manual U5B AA-NG62A-TE EVE Reference Manual (Ver 5.2 Jun89) U5C AA-LA15A-TE VAX DIGITAL Standard Runoff Reference Manual U6A AA-LA17A-TE VMS System Messages and Recovery Procedures Reference Manual: Part 1 U6B AA-LA18A-TE VMS System Messages and Recovery Procedures Reference Manual: Part 2 From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Oct 8 11:15:35 2009 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2009 09:15:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Free VAX/Alpha hardware In-Reply-To: References: <4ACDDF2F.9090805@splab.cas.neu.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, 8 Oct 2009, Dave McGuire wrote: > The MicroVAX-I is pretty rare, yes. I thought it was, but wouldn't be surprised if the rarity is in part regional. > The -II, though, of course not. It > should still be saved from the scrapper though. If nothing else the powersupplies, and if it has them, the side panels should be saved. It has been my experience that the side panels are harder to get than the chassis itself. Zane From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Oct 8 11:17:37 2009 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2009 09:17:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: FREE VAX/VMS MANUALS In-Reply-To: <4ACE0AB7.8090205@bitsavers.org> References: <4ACDDC1A.8050008@splab.cas.neu.edu> <4ACE0AB7.8090205@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: Thanks Al, I'll have to save this, as I'd like to know how many volumes CBHRC is short of a complete Grey Wall. I know we have a near complete one. Zane On Thu, 8 Oct 2009, Al Kossow wrote: > Dave McGuire wrote: >> >> But is it a *complete* Gray Wall? Anyone know? >> > VMS 5.0 Documentation Set (April 1988) > > System Management Subkit > ------------------------ > > M1A AA-LA23A-TE VMS System Management Master Index > M1A AA-LA24A-TE Introduction to VMS System Management > M1A AA-LA25A-TE Guide to Setting Up a VMS System > M1A AA-LA26A-TE VMS SYSMAN Utility Manual > > M1B AA-LA27A-TE VMS VAXcluster Manual > M1B AA-LA28A-TE VMS Exchange Utility Manual > M1B AA-LA29A-TE VMS Install Utility Manual > M1B AA-LA30A-TE VMS System Generation Utility Manual > M1B AA-LA31A-TE VMS Terminal Fallback Utility Manual > M1B AA-LA32A-TE VMS LAT Control Program (LATCP) Manual > > M2 AA-LA34A-TE Guide to Maintaining a VMS System > M2 AA-LA35A-TE VMS Backup Utility Manual > M2 AA-LA36A-TE VMS Bad Block Locator Utility Manual > M2 AA-LA37A-TE VMS Error Log Utility Manual > M2 AA-LA38A-TE VMS Mount Utility Manual > M2 AA-LA39A-TE VMS Analyze/Disk_Structure Utility Manual > > M3 AA-LA40A-TE Guide to VMS System Security > M3 AA-LA41A-TE VMS Access Control List Editor Manual > M3 AA-LA42A-TE VMS Authorize Utility Manual > M3 AA-NG63A-TE VMS Audit Analysis Utility Manual (5.2 Jun89) > > M4 Guide to VMS Performance Management > M4 VMS Accounting Utility Manual > M4 VMS Monitor Utility Manual > M4 VMS Show Cluster Utility Manual > > M5A AA-LA47A-TE Guide to DECnet-VAX Networking > M5A AA-LA48A-TE VMS Networking Manual > > M5B AA-LA49A-TE VMS DECnet Test Sender/DECnet Test Receiver Utility > Manual > M5B AA-LA50A-TE VMS Network Control Program Manual > > Programming Subkit > ------------------ > > P1 AA-LA56A-TE VMS Programming Master Index > P1 AA-LA57A-TE Guide to VMS Programming Resources > P1 AA-LA58A-TE Guide to Creating VMS Modular Procedures > > P2A VMS Debugger Manual > > P2B VMS Command Definition Utility Manual > P2B VMS Librarian Utility Manual > P2B VMS Linker Utility Manual > P2B VMS Message Utility Manual > P2B VMS Patch Utility Manual > P2B VMS SUMSLP Utility Manual > > P3 Introduction to VMS System Routines > P3 VMS Utility Routines Manual > > P4A Introduction to VMS System Services > > P4B VMS System Services Reference Manual > > P5A Introduction to the VMS Run-Time Library > P5A VMS RTL DECtalk (DTK$) Manual > P5A VMS RTL General Purpose (OTS$) Manual > P5A VMS RTL Mathematics (MTH$) Manual > P5A VMS RTL Parallel Processing (PPL$) Manual > > P5B AA-LA76A-TE VMS RTL Library (LIB$) Manual > > P5C VMS RTL Screen Management (SMG$) Manual > P5C VMS RTL String Manipulation (STR$) Manual > > P6A Guide to VMS Files and Devices > P6A VMS Analyze/RMS_File Utility Manual > P6A VMS Convert and Convert/Reclaim Utility > Manual > P6A VMS File Definition Language Facility Manual > P6A VMS National Character Set Utility Manual > > P6B VMS Record Management Services Manual > > P7A AA-LA84A-TE VMS I/O User's Reference Manual: Part 1 > P7A AA-LA85A-TE VMS I/O User's Reference Manual: Part 2 > > P7B VMS Delta/XDelta Utility Manual > P7B VMS System Dump Analyzer Utility Manual > > P8 VMS Device Support Manual > > P9 AA-LA89A-TE VAX MACRO and Instruction Set Reference Manual > > General User Subkit > ------------------- > > U1 AA-LA01A-TE VMS Master Index > U1 AA-LA02A-TE VMS General User Master Index > U1 AA-LA03A-TE VMS Glossary > > U2A AA-LA04A-TE Introduction to VMS > U2A AA-LA05A-TE Guide to Using VMS > U2A AA-LA06A-TE Guide to VMS Files and Devices > > U2B VMS Mail Utility Manual > U2B AA-LA08A-TE VMS Phone Utility Manual > U2B AA-LA09A-TE VMS Sort/Merge Utility Manual > > U3 AA-LA10A-TE VMS DCL Concepts Manual > U3 AA-LA11A-TE Guide to Using VMS Command Procedures > > U4 AA-LA12A-TE VMS DCL Dictionary > > U5A AA-LA13A-TE Guide to VMS Text Processing > U5A AA-LA16A-TE VAX EDT Reference Manual > > U5B VMS Text Processing Utility Manual > U5B AA-NG62A-TE EVE Reference Manual (Ver 5.2 Jun89) > > U5C AA-LA15A-TE VAX DIGITAL Standard Runoff Reference Manual > > U6A AA-LA17A-TE VMS System Messages and Recovery Procedures Reference > Manual: Part 1 > > U6B AA-LA18A-TE VMS System Messages and Recovery Procedures Reference > Manual: Part 2 > > > > From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Oct 8 11:26:18 2009 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 08 Oct 2009 09:26:18 -0700 Subject: FREE VAX/VMS MANUALS In-Reply-To: References: <4ACDDC1A.8050008@splab.cas.neu.edu> <4ACE0AB7.8090205@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4ACE12AA.6000706@bitsavers.org> Zane H. Healy wrote: > Thanks Al, I'll have to save this here is an updated one with the part numbers from joe's list I'm checking to see if I have the entire set scanned. VMS 5.0 Documentation Set (April 1988) System Management Subkit ------------------------ M1A AA-LA23A-TE VMS System Management Master Index M1A AA-LA24A-TE Introduction to VMS System Management M1A AA-LA25A-TE Guide to Setting Up a VMS System M1A AA-LA26A-TE VMS SYSMAN Utility Manual M1B AA-LA27A-TE VMS VAXcluster Manual M1B AA-LA28A-TE VMS Exchange Utility Manual M1B AA-LA29A-TE VMS Install Utility Manual M1B AA-LA30A-TE VMS System Generation Utility Manual M1B AA-LA31A-TE VMS Terminal Fallback Utility Manual M1B AA-LA32A-TE VMS LAT Control Program (LATCP) Manual M2 AA-LA34A-TE Guide to Maintaining a VMS System M2 AA-LA35A-TE VMS Backup Utility Manual M2 AA-LA36A-TE VMS Bad Block Locator Utility Manual M2 AA-LA37A-TE VMS Error Log Utility Manual M2 AA-LA38A-TE VMS Mount Utility Manual M2 AA-LA39A-TE VMS Analyze/Disk_Structure Utility Manual M3 AA-LA40A-TE Guide to VMS System Security M3 AA-LA41A-TE VMS Access Control List Editor Manual M3 AA-LA42A-TE VMS Authorize Utility Manual M3 AA-NG63A-TE VMS Audit Analysis Utility Manual (5.2 Jun89) M4 AA-LA43A-TE Guide to VMS Performance Management M4 AA-LA44A-TE VMS Accounting Utility Manual M4 AA-LA45A-TE VMS Monitor Utility Manual M4 AA-LA46A-TE VMS Show Cluster Utility Manual M5A AA-LA47A-TE Guide to DECnet-VAX Networking M5A AA-LA48A-TE VMS Networking Manual M5B AA-LA49A-TE VMS DECnet Test Sender/DECnet Test Receiver Utility Manual M5B AA-LA50A-TE VMS Network Control Program Manual Programming Subkit ------------------ P1 AA-LA56A-TE VMS Programming Master Index P1 AA-LA57A-TE Guide to VMS Programming Resources P1 AA-LA58A-TE Guide to Creating VMS Modular Procedures P2A AA-LA59A-TE VMS Debugger Manual P2B AA-LA60A-TE VMS Command Definition Utility Manual P2B AA-LA61A-TE VMS Librarian Utility Manual P2B AA-LA62A-TE VMS Linker Utility Manual P2B AA-LA63A-TE VMS Message Utility Manual P2B AA-LA64A-TE VMS Patch Utility Manual P2B AA-LA65A-TE VMS SUMSLP Utility Manual P3 AA-LA66A-T Introduction to VMS System Routines P3 AA-LA67A-T VMS Utility Routines Manual P4A AA-LA68A-T Introduction to VMS System Services P4B AA-LA69A-T VMS System Services Reference Manual P5A AA-LA70A-T Introduction to the VMS Run-Time Library P5A AA-LA71A-T VMS RTL DECtalk (DTK$) Manual P5A AA-LA73A-T VMS RTL General Purpose (OTS$) Manual P5A AA-LA72A-T VMS RTL Mathematics (MTH$) Manual P5A AA-LA74A-T VMS RTL Parallel Processing (PPL$) Manual P5B AA-LA76A-TE VMS RTL Library (LIB$) Manual P5C AA-LA77A-TE VMS RTL Screen Management (SMG$) Manual P5C AA-LA75A-TE VMS RTL String Manipulation (STR$) Manual P6A AA-LA78A-TE Guide to VMS Files and Devices P6A AA-LA79A-TE VMS Analyze/RMS_File Utility Manual P6A AA-LA80A-TE VMS Convert and Convert/Reclaim Utility Manual P6A AA-LA81A-TE VMS File Definition Language Facility Manual P6A AA-LA82A-TE VMS National Character Set Utility Manual P6B AA-LA83A-TE VMS Record Management Services Manual P7A AA-LA84A-TE VMS I/O User's Reference Manual: Part 1 P7A AA-LA85A-TE VMS I/O User's Reference Manual: Part 2 P7B AA-LA86A-TE VMS Delta/XDelta Utility Manual P7B AA-LA87A-TE VMS System Dump Analyzer Utility Manual P8 AA-LA88A-TE VMS Device Support Manual P9 AA-LA89A-TE VAX MACRO and Instruction Set Reference Manual General User Subkit ------------------- U1 AA-LA01A-TE VMS Master Index U1 AA-LA02A-TE VMS General User Master Index U1 AA-LA03A-TE VMS Glossary U2A AA-LA04A-TE Introduction to VMS U2A AA-LA05A-TE Guide to Using VMS U2A AA-LA06A-TE Guide to VMS Files and Devices U2B AA-LA07A-TE VMS Mail Utility Manual U2B AA-LA08A-TE VMS Phone Utility Manual U2B AA-LA09A-TE VMS Sort/Merge Utility Manual U3 AA-LA10A-TE VMS DCL Concepts Manual U3 AA-LA11A-TE Guide to Using VMS Command Procedures U4 AA-LA12A-TE VMS DCL Dictionary U5A AA-LA13A-TE Guide to VMS Text Processing U5A AA-LA16A-TE VAX EDT Reference Manual U5B VMS Text Processing Utility Manual U5B AA-NG62A-TE EVE Reference Manual (Ver 5.2 Jun89) U5C AA-LA15A-TE VAX DIGITAL Standard Runoff Reference Manual U6A AA-LA17A-TE VMS System Messages and Recovery Procedures Reference Manual: Part 1 U6B AA-LA18A-TE VMS System Messages and Recovery Procedures Reference Manual: Part 2 From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Oct 8 11:38:54 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2009 12:38:54 -0400 Subject: Free VAX/Alpha hardware In-Reply-To: References: <4ACDDF2F.9090805@splab.cas.neu.edu> Message-ID: On Oct 8, 2009, at 12:15 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: >> The MicroVAX-I is pretty rare, yes. > > I thought it was, but wouldn't be surprised if the rarity is in part > regional. That's certainly possible. >> The -II, though, of course not. It should still be saved from the >> scrapper though. > > If nothing else the powersupplies, and if it has them, the side panels > should be saved. It has been my experience that the side panels > are harder > to get than the chassis itself. What chassis are you talking about, BA123? I don't think Joe mentioned what chassis his -II is in. I am short a BA23 power supply. I have two hand-built BA123 prototypes, called "woody boxes" because of their gorgeous wooden lids, that use BA23 power supplies...one of them has a dead PS. (yes I checked that sentence for typos...BA23/BA123 above is correct :)) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Oct 8 11:40:41 2009 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 08 Oct 2009 12:40:41 -0400 Subject: Free VAX/Alpha hardware In-Reply-To: <4ACE032C.9080005@verizon.net> References: <4ACDDF2F.9090805@splab.cas.neu.edu> <4ACE032C.9080005@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4ACE1609.7020209@gmail.com> allison wrote: > I am close enough but there is no way I can store all that indoors. I'm close enough and have the space to store all of it, but my asthma has been acting up so doing the legwork isn't possible by his deadline. Peace... Sridhar From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Oct 8 11:51:47 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2009 12:51:47 -0400 Subject: Free VAX/Alpha hardware In-Reply-To: <4ACE1609.7020209@gmail.com> References: <4ACDDF2F.9090805@splab.cas.neu.edu> <4ACE032C.9080005@verizon.net> <4ACE1609.7020209@gmail.com> Message-ID: <027756F1-F098-4F46-8B02-240D38BAB099@neurotica.com> On Oct 8, 2009, at 12:40 PM, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >> I am close enough but there is no way I can store all that indoors. > > I'm close enough and have the space to store all of it, but my > asthma has been acting up so doing the legwork isn't possible by > his deadline. I've asked him privately if he can hang onto it for another week and a half so that we can pick it up on our upcoming road trip. I can do the lifting, no worries there, wheezing boy. ;) -Dave > -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Oct 8 12:05:03 2009 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2009 10:05:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Free VAX/Alpha hardware In-Reply-To: References: <4ACDDF2F.9090805@splab.cas.neu.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, 8 Oct 2009, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> ?This stuff is for the most part worth rescuing. ? ?The MicroVAX I and II >> can be converted into a PDP-11 if so desired. > > I was going to do that myself, but I recently came into a fully > working original-model (KDF11) MicroPDP-11, so I'm going to focus on > that now (it has 2x MSV11PK for 512K of memory, an RQDX1, and an RD51 > (10MB) - at least until I pull some newer cards/disks off the shelf). My primary PDP-11 started life as my first working VAX. One of my winter projects will be putting it back together. It is still in pieces after our moves. I also need to retrive my PDP-11/44 from my parents garage still. >> ?I think MicroVAX I's are moderately rare. >> ?Though since this is in MA, they might not be back there. > > They were uncommon but not unknown here in Ohio... I got one from a > former employer, and another that was DEC-upgraded to a MicroVAX-II > (for something like $17,000) when those were new. Since then, though, > I've only ever run across one other. Lots of MicroVAX-IIs. I *might* have a set or two of CPU boards (I don't remember and I have a lot of MV II sets), but I've never seen a MV-1 in person. I wish I could have rescued the VAX-11/730 Paxton had. > This reminds me that I still need to take some time to image my > MicroVMS distro floppies. I'm sure they aren't unique, but I'm not > sure where I'd get uVMS from the 'net (and ISTR, there are no versions > of full VMS that fit on an RD51 or RD52). This is something I for one would like to see preserved. I have a VAXstation II/RC that ran MicroVMS. Zane From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Oct 8 12:06:14 2009 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2009 10:06:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: FREE VAX/VMS MANUALS In-Reply-To: <4ACE12AA.6000706@bitsavers.org> References: <4ACDDC1A.8050008@splab.cas.neu.edu> <4ACE0AB7.8090205@bitsavers.org> <4ACE12AA.6000706@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Thu, 8 Oct 2009, Al Kossow wrote: > here is an updated one with the part numbers from joe's list > > I'm checking to see if I have the entire set scanned. Is the Grey Wall on Bitsavers then? Zane From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Oct 8 12:08:36 2009 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2009 10:08:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Free VAX/Alpha hardware In-Reply-To: References: <4ACDDF2F.9090805@splab.cas.neu.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, 8 Oct 2009, Dave McGuire wrote: >> If nothing else the powersupplies, and if it has them, the side panels >> should be saved. It has been my experience that the side panels are harder >> to get than the chassis itself. > > What chassis are you talking about, BA123? I don't think Joe mentioned what > chassis his -II is in. Good point. Since he said MicroVAX II, I assumed BA123, but it could be in a BA23. > I am short a BA23 power supply. I have two hand-built BA123 prototypes, > called "woody boxes" because of their gorgeous wooden lids, that use BA23 > power supplies...one of them has a dead PS. (yes I checked that sentence for > typos...BA23/BA123 above is correct :)) Very cool sounding! Pictures? Zane From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Oct 8 12:38:03 2009 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 08 Oct 2009 10:38:03 -0700 Subject: FREE VAX/VMS MANUALS In-Reply-To: References: <4ACDDC1A.8050008@splab.cas.neu.edu> <4ACE0AB7.8090205@bitsavers.org> <4ACE12AA.6000706@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4ACE237B.7080406@bitsavers.org> Zane H. Healy wrote: > Is the Grey Wall on Bitsavers then? > Not yet. Before we moved the DEC archive off site, I scanned 100+ DEC manuals, the 5.0 set among them. From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Oct 8 13:04:50 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2009 14:04:50 -0400 Subject: Free VAX/Alpha hardware In-Reply-To: References: <4ACDDF2F.9090805@splab.cas.neu.edu> Message-ID: <50DA7830-0675-48CA-9503-3973E553527A@neurotica.com> On Oct 8, 2009, at 1:08 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: >>> If nothing else the powersupplies, and if it has them, the side >>> panels >>> should be saved. It has been my experience that the side panels >>> are harder >>> to get than the chassis itself. >> >> What chassis are you talking about, BA123? I don't think Joe >> mentioned what chassis his -II is in. > > Good point. Since he said MicroVAX II, I assumed BA123, but it > could be in > a BA23. I've never seen a -I in a BA123, only BA23s. That may just be incidental, though. >> I am short a BA23 power supply. I have two hand-built BA123 >> prototypes, called "woody boxes" because of their gorgeous wooden >> lids, that use BA23 power supplies...one of them has a dead PS. >> (yes I checked that sentence for typos...BA23/BA123 above is >> correct :)) > > Very cool sounding! Pictures? I don't have any yet, and they're packed away. I will get them out at some point and do a nice photo shoot. They really are nice little boxes, and very different from the final production BA123. They are built around a BA23 power supply and backplane (so only eight slots as compared to the BA123's twelve). They only have four drive bays, mounted horizontally in a vertical column on the right, with no vertically-mounted left bay like that of the production BA123. They are much smaller and lighter than a production BA123, but they still have casters. I have the wood tops for both of mine, but I am missing one side cover, which is very sad. I'll hire a machinist to make me a new one when I can afford to. Some of the sheet metal parts still sport some blue layout dye and scribe marks! -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From pat at computer-refuge.org Thu Oct 8 13:46:05 2009 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2009 14:46:05 -0400 Subject: Looking for a punch-card reader. Message-ID: <200910081446.05242.pat@computer-refuge.org> As I didn't end up getting the OMR-2000 that ended on ebay yesterday, I'm still sort of looking for a punch card reader, preferably something that's functional, and that won't take too much effort to connect to a machine I already have (eg, one of the surplus Documation? 2000 election units). I don't have a big budget for this, or any REAL need, but I do have some cards I'd like to archive at some point from Purdue's old CDC gear, and of course who doesn't need to have a punch card setup laying around?? Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From n0body.h0me at inbox.com Thu Oct 8 14:03:23 2009 From: n0body.h0me at inbox.com (N0body H0me) Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2009 11:03:23 -0800 Subject: HP/UX 9.x (Was: DEC and HP hardware to go in Europe) In-Reply-To: References: <41094a2c5c8.000009c5n0body.h0me@inbox.com> <47502e29932.000003f5n0body.h0me@inbox.com> <02118665d76c4cb6b1ba373ee3851852@xp1800> <3aa626f2dbe.000003f9n0body.h0me@inbox.com> <4ac8cf8e.8000900@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <61E16C97EF2.0000056Fn0body.h0me@inbox.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: snhirsch at gmail.com > Sent: Wed, 7 Oct 2009 07:00:55 -0400 (EDT) > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: HP/UX 9.x (Was: DEC and HP hardware to go in Europe) > > On Tue, 6 Oct 2009, N0body H0me wrote: > >> Oh, so TAMS actually owns that IP, then. That's interesting, I >> would have thought HP would have used what I call the 'Scorched IP' >> approach, kinda like: >> >> "Sorry, you can't have that version, it's no longer supported. It >> is not freely available, we will not make it freely available, and >> we will hunt down and kill anyone who illegally distributes or attempts >> to distribute it." > > And the corollary to that: "..sorry, we no longer have the software nor > sources..". As if they ran out of floor-space to store it on :-). It's almost as though the old stuff is viewed with a sense of contempt at some of these places (Data General comes to mind). "I'm sorry, those documents no longer exist; they were destroyed when that product line was EOL'd" (and we had an office party to celebrate. . . .). The same thing happened to HP's 64000 stuff ten years ago . . . Jeff ____________________________________________________________ GET FREE 5GB EMAIL - Check out spam free email with many cool features! Visit http://www.inbox.com/email to find out more! From trash3 at splab.cas.neu.edu Thu Oct 8 14:55:59 2009 From: trash3 at splab.cas.neu.edu (joe heck) Date: Thu, 08 Oct 2009 15:55:59 -0400 Subject: Free VAX/Alpha hardware (clarification) In-Reply-To: References: <4ACDDF2F.9090805@splab.cas.neu.edu> Message-ID: <4ACE43CF.9000207@splab.cas.neu.edu> 13 inches wide, I believe that to be a BA123 BA350, not 360, I'm too old and the digits are too small... :-) Joe Zane H. Healy wrote: > Is there anyone close by that can rescue this and the doc's? This stuff > is for the most part worth rescuing. The MicroVAX I and II can be > converted into a PDP-11 if so desired. I think MicroVAX I's are > moderately rare. Though since this is in MA, they might not be back there. > > Question is there such a thing as a BA360? I suspect it is a typo, and > it's a BA350, but I don't know. > > I'm not even collecting anymore, but if I was local, I'd be going after > this. > > Zane > > > At 8:46 AM -0400 10/8/09, joe heck wrote: >> I have the following equpment free for pick up. All or nothing deal. >> Wrentham, MA. It's going to the scrapper next Wednesday. >> >> two VAX 4000-100 >> two AlphaServer 400 4/233 complete and working when I shut them down >> a few years ago >> two VT520 >> one VR160 >> >> MicroVAX 3100 >> BA42A storage expansion >> BA360 with 4 drives >> MicroVAX I, I believe complete, I never powered it up >> MicroVAX II box/power supply/backplane only, no drives or boards >> >> Joe Heck > > From trash3 at splab.cas.neu.edu Thu Oct 8 15:01:30 2009 From: trash3 at splab.cas.neu.edu (joe heck) Date: Thu, 08 Oct 2009 16:01:30 -0400 Subject: Free VAX/Alpha hardware MV-I clarification In-Reply-To: <50DA7830-0675-48CA-9503-3973E553527A@neurotica.com> References: <4ACDDF2F.9090805@splab.cas.neu.edu> <50DA7830-0675-48CA-9503-3973E553527A@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4ACE451A.8020203@splab.cas.neu.edu> Microvax I is apparently BA23 Dave McGuire wrote: > On Oct 8, 2009, at 1:08 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: >>>> If nothing else the powersupplies, and if it has them, the side panels >>>> should be saved. It has been my experience that the side panels are >>>> harder >>>> to get than the chassis itself. >>> >>> What chassis are you talking about, BA123? I don't think Joe >>> mentioned what chassis his -II is in. >> >> Good point. Since he said MicroVAX II, I assumed BA123, but it could >> be in >> a BA23. > > I've never seen a -I in a BA123, only BA23s. That may just be > incidental, though. > >>> I am short a BA23 power supply. I have two hand-built BA123 >>> prototypes, called "woody boxes" because of their gorgeous wooden >>> lids, that use BA23 power supplies...one of them has a dead PS. (yes >>> I checked that sentence for typos...BA23/BA123 above is correct :)) >> >> Very cool sounding! Pictures? > > I don't have any yet, and they're packed away. I will get them out at > some point and do a nice photo shoot. They really are nice little > boxes, and very different from the final production BA123. They are > built around a BA23 power supply and backplane (so only eight slots as > compared to the BA123's twelve). They only have four drive bays, > mounted horizontally in a vertical column on the right, with no > vertically-mounted left bay like that of the production BA123. They are > much smaller and lighter than a production BA123, but they still have > casters. > > I have the wood tops for both of mine, but I am missing one side > cover, which is very sad. I'll hire a machinist to make me a new one > when I can afford to. Some of the sheet metal parts still sport some > blue layout dye and scribe marks! > > -Dave > From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Thu Oct 8 15:03:44 2009 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2009 21:03:44 +0100 Subject: Free VAX/Alpha hardware In-Reply-To: References: <4ACDDF2F.9090805@splab.cas.neu.edu> Message-ID: <000301ca4852$71cd2b70$55678250$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> If you ever image the floppies I would love to get a copy, even though I am not sure how I would get them to install on my MVII. Could you let us know if and when you do this? Thanks Rob -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Ethan Dicks Sent: 08 October 2009 15:48 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Free VAX/Alpha hardware On Thu, Oct 8, 2009 at 10:08 AM, Zane H. Healy wrote: > Is there anyone close by that can rescue this and the doc's? Not me. Too far. >?This stuff is for the most part worth rescuing. ? ?The MicroVAX I and II can be converted > into a PDP-11 if so desired. I was going to do that myself, but I recently came into a fully working original-model (KDF11) MicroPDP-11, so I'm going to focus on that now (it has 2x MSV11PK for 512K of memory, an RQDX1, and an RD51 (10MB) - at least until I pull some newer cards/disks off the shelf). > ?I think MicroVAX I's are moderately rare. > ?Though since this is in MA, they might not be back there. They were uncommon but not unknown here in Ohio... I got one from a former employer, and another that was DEC-upgraded to a MicroVAX-II (for something like $17,000) when those were new. Since then, though, I've only ever run across one other. Lots of MicroVAX-IIs. This reminds me that I still need to take some time to image my MicroVMS distro floppies. I'm sure they aren't unique, but I'm not sure where I'd get uVMS from the 'net (and ISTR, there are no versions of full VMS that fit on an RD51 or RD52). -ethan From curt at atarimuseum.com Thu Oct 8 15:08:57 2009 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Thu, 08 Oct 2009 16:08:57 -0400 Subject: Applicon PG Tape In-Reply-To: <027756F1-F098-4F46-8B02-240D38BAB099@neurotica.com> References: <4ACDDF2F.9090805@splab.cas.neu.edu> <4ACE032C.9080005@verizon.net> <4ACE1609.7020209@gmail.com> <027756F1-F098-4F46-8B02-240D38BAB099@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4ACE46D9.8020109@atarimuseum.com> Hi, I am familiar with doing a dd of GDS tapes. I have a PG Tape done on an Applicon System from 1975. Does anyone know how to retrieve the data from this format off of a .5" 9 track tape? Curt From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Oct 8 15:12:42 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2009 16:12:42 -0400 Subject: Free VAX/Alpha hardware In-Reply-To: <4ACDDF2F.9090805@splab.cas.neu.edu> References: <4ACDDF2F.9090805@splab.cas.neu.edu> Message-ID: Hey Joe, did you see my off-list email about this? -Dave On Oct 8, 2009, at 8:46 AM, joe heck wrote: > I have the following equpment free for pick up. All or nothing > deal. Wrentham, MA. It's going to the scrapper next Wednesday. > > two VAX 4000-100 > two AlphaServer 400 4/233 complete and working when I shut them > down a few years ago > two VT520 > one VR160 > > MicroVAX 3100 > BA42A storage expansion > BA360 with 4 drives > MicroVAX I, I believe complete, I never powered it up > MicroVAX II box/power supply/backplane only, no drives or boards > > Joe Heck -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Oct 8 15:27:18 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2009 16:27:18 -0400 Subject: Free VAX/Alpha hardware In-Reply-To: <-7741607240251133718@unknownmsgid> References: <4ACDDF2F.9090805@splab.cas.neu.edu> <-7741607240251133718@unknownmsgid> Message-ID: On Thu, Oct 8, 2009 at 4:03 PM, Rob Jarratt wrote: > If you ever image the floppies I would love to get a copy, even though I am > not sure how I would get them to install on my MVII. Could you let us know > if and when you do this? These are original distro floppies from the late 1980s. I'm honestly not expecting 100% success on reading them, but fortunately, the content is far from unique. As to how you might use them - I'd expect that you'd need a stack of RX50-formatted 5.25" floppies and the disk image files and an Intel-based PC running Linux (or perhaps Windows) to apply the image files to the physical media. Armed with a stack of floppies, you'd install VMS the way we did it in the old days - spending an afternoon feeding floppies to SABACKUP. I have many other things on my plate, so I wouldn't expect to get to this before the Holidays. -ethan From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Oct 8 15:52:54 2009 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2009 13:52:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Free VAX/Alpha hardware In-Reply-To: References: <4ACDDF2F.9090805@splab.cas.neu.edu> <-7741607240251133718@unknownmsgid> Message-ID: On Thu, 8 Oct 2009, Ethan Dicks wrote: > These are original distro floppies from the late 1980s. I'm honestly > not expecting 100% success on reading them, but fortunately, the > content is far from unique. My thinking is that if you image the set, then the next step is to try to find people with copies of the floppies you have that aren't readable. Isn't the stack something like 50 RX50 floppies? Zane From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Oct 8 16:03:06 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2009 17:03:06 -0400 Subject: Free VAX/Alpha hardware In-Reply-To: References: <4ACDDF2F.9090805@splab.cas.neu.edu> <-7741607240251133718@unknownmsgid> Message-ID: On Thu, Oct 8, 2009 at 4:52 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: > On Thu, 8 Oct 2009, Ethan Dicks wrote: > >> These are original distro floppies from the late 1980s. ?I'm honestly >> not expecting 100% success on reading them, but fortunately, the >> content is far from unique. > > My thinking is that if you image the set, then the next step is to try to > find people with copies of the floppies you have that aren't readable. That would be the next step, I'd think. > Isn't the stack something like 50 RX50 floppies? I'd have to go count, but ISTR that uVMS 1.0 is around 35 floppies. 50 is a good rough count (and might be more accurate for uVMS 4.0, say) It sure was a pain loading it in the old days - nothing like loading from tape. -ethan From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Thu Oct 8 16:15:52 2009 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2009 22:15:52 +0100 Subject: Free VAX/Alpha hardware In-Reply-To: References: <4ACDDF2F.9090805@splab.cas.neu.edu> <-7741607240251133718@unknownmsgid> Message-ID: <000401ca485c$85a059b0$90e10d10$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> No rush, I don't have an RX50 at the moment in any case. Regards Rob -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Ethan Dicks Sent: 08 October 2009 21:27 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Free VAX/Alpha hardware On Thu, Oct 8, 2009 at 4:03 PM, Rob Jarratt wrote: > If you ever image the floppies I would love to get a copy, even though I am > not sure how I would get them to install on my MVII. Could you let us know > if and when you do this? These are original distro floppies from the late 1980s. I'm honestly not expecting 100% success on reading them, but fortunately, the content is far from unique. As to how you might use them - I'd expect that you'd need a stack of RX50-formatted 5.25" floppies and the disk image files and an Intel-based PC running Linux (or perhaps Windows) to apply the image files to the physical media. Armed with a stack of floppies, you'd install VMS the way we did it in the old days - spending an afternoon feeding floppies to SABACKUP. I have many other things on my plate, so I wouldn't expect to get to this before the Holidays. -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Oct 8 16:26:22 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2009 17:26:22 -0400 Subject: Free VAX/Alpha hardware In-Reply-To: <-8528933153646888210@unknownmsgid> References: <4ACDDF2F.9090805@splab.cas.neu.edu> <-7741607240251133718@unknownmsgid> <-8528933153646888210@unknownmsgid> Message-ID: On Thu, Oct 8, 2009 at 5:15 PM, Rob Jarratt wrote: > No rush, I don't have an RX50 at the moment in any case. On your MicroVAX? TK50 only? -ethan From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Thu Oct 8 16:27:16 2009 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Thu, 08 Oct 2009 17:27:16 -0400 Subject: Rescue help needed in/near Richmond, Texas Message-ID: I would like to acquire a "local pickup only" item in Richmond, Texas. If someone could help pack and ship an item (a little bigger than a 13 inch TV) please let me know. Thanks, Bill Sudbrink From keith.boston at gmail.com Thu Oct 8 16:36:03 2009 From: keith.boston at gmail.com (Keith Boston) Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2009 17:36:03 -0400 Subject: Free VAX/Alpha hardware Message-ID: Alright. I, luckily, this time, happen to live about 5 miles away from this generous offer. I'm picking up the entire lot. If anyone needs something specific - hardware/manuals/software, email me and when I go through everything I'll do what I can. --keith www.decroded.com From trash3 at splab.cas.neu.edu Thu Oct 8 16:38:53 2009 From: trash3 at splab.cas.neu.edu (joe heck) Date: Thu, 08 Oct 2009 17:38:53 -0400 Subject: Free VAX/Alpha hardware (and manuals) update In-Reply-To: <4ACE43CF.9000207@splab.cas.neu.edu> References: <4ACDDF2F.9090805@splab.cas.neu.edu> <4ACE43CF.9000207@splab.cas.neu.edu> Message-ID: <4ACE5BED.2000909@splab.cas.neu.edu> The hardware is spoken for, it will be picked up before the weekend. The person receiving the items knows several of you anyway, so you'll probably hear from him. He is also taking the manuals, but I don't think he wants them. If anybody wants the vms 5.0 docs, let me know or post it to the group. thanks Joe From swtpc6800 at comcast.net Thu Oct 8 20:01:33 2009 From: swtpc6800 at comcast.net (Michael Holley) Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2009 18:01:33 -0700 Subject: FD1771 Floppy Disk Controller Message-ID: <85BD8E4405344C2C8C04CB824EDEEA98@downstairs2> Does anyone recognize the vendor logo on this FD1771 chip. http://www.swtpc.com/mholley/DC_2/DC2_Photo.JPG I have some National Semiconductor and SMC 1771s. I am looking for an early Western Digital logo. Michael Holley From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Oct 8 20:25:57 2009 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 08 Oct 2009 18:25:57 -0700 Subject: FD1771 Floppy Disk Controller In-Reply-To: <85BD8E4405344C2C8C04CB824EDEEA98@downstairs2> References: <85BD8E4405344C2C8C04CB824EDEEA98@downstairs2> Message-ID: <4ACE9125.2070201@bitsavers.org> Michael Holley wrote: > Does anyone recognize the vendor logo on this FD1771 chip. It is Western Digital From IanK at vulcan.com Thu Oct 8 21:10:59 2009 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2009 19:10:59 -0700 Subject: Free VAX/Alpha hardware (and manuals) update In-Reply-To: <4ACE5BED.2000909@splab.cas.neu.edu> References: <4ACDDF2F.9090805@splab.cas.neu.edu> <4ACE43CF.9000207@splab.cas.neu.edu>, <4ACE5BED.2000909@splab.cas.neu.edu> Message-ID: I would enjoy having a Gray Wall to assemble alongside our running VAX-11/780-5 and soon-to-be-running VAX-11/785. We're running 6.2, but if an arrangement could be made to obtain the Gray Wall I would love to display it. Actually, I'd like to move to an earlier VMS version at some point, too, so it could end up being more contemporaneous. Having said that, I honestly don't have budget for more than shipping. But please put my name in the hat.... Thanks -- Ian (Living Computer Museum) ________________________________________ From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of joe heck [trash3 at splab.cas.neu.edu] Sent: Thursday, October 08, 2009 2:38 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Free VAX/Alpha hardware (and manuals) update The hardware is spoken for, it will be picked up before the weekend. The person receiving the items knows several of you anyway, so you'll probably hear from him. He is also taking the manuals, but I don't think he wants them. If anybody wants the vms 5.0 docs, let me know or post it to the group. thanks Joe From thypope at gmail.com Thu Oct 8 22:14:17 2009 From: thypope at gmail.com (Alexandru Lovin) Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2009 06:14:17 +0300 Subject: Fixing a 386SX laptop Message-ID: Hello everyone, My oldest machine is a Goldstar Gold Note 386SX 20 MHz with 2 MB of RAM. I'd like to do many things with it, but no matter what I try to do, at some point the screen starts going dark and then bright and then dark again...varying in brightness until you can't focus on what you are doing anymore. It's a grayscale LCD. Apparently no dead pixels at all. I've been told by someone who fixes motherboards and other things for a living that it's not the screen but something else. However, the man claims he has no time to look into the machine and find the problem. If anyone has any idea of what could be wrong, wether it is possible to fix it and hopefully how, I'm all ears. I will even send it to whoever can fix it and pay for the repairs, like I intended to do with this local gentleman. I'm very curious to at least hear what's wrong. From cclist at sydex.com Thu Oct 8 22:30:49 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 08 Oct 2009 20:30:49 -0700 Subject: Fixing a 386SX laptop In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4ACE4BF9.16596.1C0DC301@cclist.sydex.com> On 9 Oct 2009 at 6:14, Alexandru Lovin wrote: > My oldest machine is a Goldstar Gold Note 386SX 20 MHz with 2 MB of > RAM. I'd like to do many things with it, but no matter what I try to > do, at some point the screen starts going dark and then bright and > then dark again...varying in brightness until you can't focus on what > you are doing anymore. It's a grayscale LCD. Apparently no dead pixels > at all. I've been told by someone who fixes motherboards and other > things for a living that it's not the screen but something else. > However, the man claims he has no time to look into the machine and > find the problem. Is this a backlit screen? If not, then you may want to check out the LCD bias supply. Sometimes there's a contrast control pot on the bias supply and that could also be going wonky. --Chuck From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Oct 8 22:42:48 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2009 23:42:48 -0400 Subject: Looking for a punch-card reader. In-Reply-To: <200910081446.05242.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <200910081446.05242.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: > As I didn't end up getting the OMR-2000 that ended on ebay yesterday, > I'm still sort of looking for a punch card reader, preferably something > that's functional, and that won't take too much effort to connect to a > machine I already have (eg, one of the surplus Documation? 2000 election > units). > > I don't have a big budget for this, or any REAL need, but I do have some > cards I'd like to archive at some point from Purdue's old CDC gear, and > of course who doesn't need to have a punch card setup laying around?? How interested? I have NOS Chatsworths (I do not know the model number). -- Will From thypope at gmail.com Thu Oct 8 22:53:12 2009 From: thypope at gmail.com (Alexandru Lovin) Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2009 06:53:12 +0300 Subject: Fixing a 386SX laptop In-Reply-To: <4ACE4BF9.16596.1C0DC301@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4ACE4BF9.16596.1C0DC301@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: Thanks for answering, but I'm afraid you're going to do some explaining. I think backlit screens are the ones who have LEDs or something else behind, providing light and limiting the visibility angle, like some of today's LCDs. Non-backlit screens are probably the kind found on digital clocks and watches. Question is, were non-backlit LCDs ever used on laptops? And more specifically, on 386 laptops? This one is from 1992 apparently. LCD bias supply - I have no idea what that is. It has analog dials for controlling brightness and contrast. They work but I remember that when toying with any of them, it doesn't affect the variations in brightness (the laptop is now in the hands of that reluctant repairman). If you dismantle the laptop, the screen comes off as a hefty chunk that includes those two dials. I have never had the guts to try and dismantle that chunk individually. It's connected to the motherboard via wires similar to the wires composing floppy disk drive ribbon cables or the good old 40-pin hard disk drive ribbon cables. However, they are not composed in a ribbon. Also, they group in two or three connectors on the motherboard. I think there's also an anti-interference ring on them. Should I get the laptop from the guy and take pictures or scan parts of it with an actual paper sheet scanner? On Fri, Oct 9, 2009 at 6:30 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 9 Oct 2009 at 6:14, Alexandru Lovin wrote: > > > My oldest machine is a Goldstar Gold Note 386SX 20 MHz with 2 MB of > > RAM. I'd like to do many things with it, but no matter what I try to > > do, at some point the screen starts going dark and then bright and > > then dark again...varying in brightness until you can't focus on what > > you are doing anymore. It's a grayscale LCD. Apparently no dead pixels > > at all. I've been told by someone who fixes motherboards and other > > things for a living that it's not the screen but something else. > > However, the man claims he has no time to look into the machine and > > find the problem. > > Is this a backlit screen? If not, then you may want to check out the > LCD bias supply. Sometimes there's a contrast control pot on the > bias supply and that could also be going wonky. > > --Chuck > > -- Alex Lovin - www.erasereality.3x.ro From cclist at sydex.com Fri Oct 9 00:24:36 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 08 Oct 2009 22:24:36 -0700 Subject: Fixing a 386SX laptop In-Reply-To: References: , <4ACE4BF9.16596.1C0DC301@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4ACE66A4.31713.1C75F070@cclist.sydex.com> On 9 Oct 2009 at 6:53, Alexandru Lovin wrote: > Thanks for answering, but I'm afraid you're going to do some > explaining. I think backlit screens are the ones who have LEDs or > something else behind, providing light and limiting the visibility > angle, like some of today's LCDs. Non-backlit screens are probably the > kind found on digital clocks and watches. Question is, were > non-backlit LCDs ever used on laptops? And more specifically, on 386 > laptops? This one is from 1992 apparently. Yours is probably backlit. Laptops like the DG/One did not have a backlight and had to be used in (bright) ambient light. I'm going to assume that yours has a backlight. These usually take the form of a cold-cathode fluorescent lamp, or CCFL. These are very thin, delicate fluorescent lamps and are run from high voltage which is developed by an inverter module. To replace a lamp see: http://www.ccfldirect.com/lcdtutorial.html Your Goldnote is mentioned as having a CCFL here: http://www.optoelectronicdoll.de/d%20CFL.htm Inverters tend to be specific to a given laptop model; finding a replacement can be challenging. --Chuck From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Fri Oct 9 00:45:35 2009 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2009 06:45:35 +0100 Subject: Free VAX/Alpha hardware In-Reply-To: References: <4ACDDF2F.9090805@splab.cas.neu.edu> <-7741607240251133718@unknownmsgid> <-8528933153646888210@unknownmsgid> Message-ID: <002301ca48a3$c03fb470$40bf1d50$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> That's right. Actually TK70 and DELQA are my installation options. Regards Rob -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Ethan Dicks Sent: 08 October 2009 22:26 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Free VAX/Alpha hardware On Thu, Oct 8, 2009 at 5:15 PM, Rob Jarratt wrote: > No rush, I don't have an RX50 at the moment in any case. On your MicroVAX? TK50 only? -ethan From thypope at gmail.com Fri Oct 9 02:30:15 2009 From: thypope at gmail.com (Alexandru Lovin) Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2009 10:30:15 +0300 Subject: Fixing a 386SX laptop In-Reply-To: <4ACE66A4.31713.1C75F070@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4ACE4BF9.16596.1C0DC301@cclist.sydex.com> <4ACE66A4.31713.1C75F070@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: Oh yes, you could definitely use it in the dark. That's what I forgot to add. It is definitely backlit. On Fri, Oct 9, 2009 at 8:24 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 9 Oct 2009 at 6:53, Alexandru Lovin wrote: > > > Thanks for answering, but I'm afraid you're going to do some > > explaining. I think backlit screens are the ones who have LEDs or > > something else behind, providing light and limiting the visibility > > angle, like some of today's LCDs. Non-backlit screens are probably the > > kind found on digital clocks and watches. Question is, were > > non-backlit LCDs ever used on laptops? And more specifically, on 386 > > laptops? This one is from 1992 apparently. > > Yours is probably backlit. Laptops like the DG/One did not have a > backlight and had to be used in (bright) ambient light. > > I'm going to assume that yours has a backlight. These usually take > the form of a cold-cathode fluorescent lamp, or CCFL. These are very > thin, delicate fluorescent lamps and are run from high voltage which > is developed by an inverter module. > > To replace a lamp see: > > http://www.ccfldirect.com/lcdtutorial.html > > Your Goldnote is mentioned as having a CCFL here: > > http://www.optoelectronicdoll.de/d%20CFL.htm > > Inverters tend to be specific to a given laptop model; finding a > replacement can be challenging. > > --Chuck > > From thypope at gmail.com Fri Oct 9 03:04:13 2009 From: thypope at gmail.com (Alexandru Lovin) Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2009 11:04:13 +0300 Subject: Fixing a 386SX laptop In-Reply-To: References: <4ACE4BF9.16596.1C0DC301@cclist.sydex.com> <4ACE66A4.31713.1C75F070@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: Oh, yes. I should add that this laptop looks identical to mine. The Zenith Mastersport 386SX: http://sensei.ad.umuc.edu/dwills/cmis325/mastersport386sx.html The only picture I could find with Google Image Search that has the machine turned on. That one is apparently with the default BIOS setting: it is black-on-white instead of the usually seen white-on-black. You could change it to white-on-black. It only applied for text-mode though - Win 3.1 looked the same regardless. Specs looks identical as well, except the hard drive. Mine has a 40 MB HDD but any new PATA drive works (you have to install a program in the MBR so that you can use the entire drive, and you still can't use partitions bigger than 2 GB - I forgot the name of the program though). So it's the CCFL. Man, where am I gonna get a replacement for that. I'm pretty sure it's the fluorescent lamp since that brightness variation did look like a used neon tube, only less frequent - I guess used neon tubes vary their luminosity according to the network's frequency, 50 or 60 Hz. This one looked like it has much less. I assume I can't cheat and get it replaced with LEDs like today's LCD screens have ? Anyway, thanks for identifying the problem. I'm pretty sure this is the problem. On Fri, Oct 9, 2009 at 10:30 AM, Alexandru Lovin wrote: > Oh yes, you could definitely use it in the dark. That's what I forgot to > add. It is definitely backlit. > > > On Fri, Oct 9, 2009 at 8:24 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > >> On 9 Oct 2009 at 6:53, Alexandru Lovin wrote: >> >> > Thanks for answering, but I'm afraid you're going to do some >> > explaining. I think backlit screens are the ones who have LEDs or >> > something else behind, providing light and limiting the visibility >> > angle, like some of today's LCDs. Non-backlit screens are probably the >> > kind found on digital clocks and watches. Question is, were >> > non-backlit LCDs ever used on laptops? And more specifically, on 386 >> > laptops? This one is from 1992 apparently. >> >> Yours is probably backlit. Laptops like the DG/One did not have a >> backlight and had to be used in (bright) ambient light. >> >> I'm going to assume that yours has a backlight. These usually take >> the form of a cold-cathode fluorescent lamp, or CCFL. These are very >> thin, delicate fluorescent lamps and are run from high voltage which >> is developed by an inverter module. >> >> To replace a lamp see: >> >> http://www.ccfldirect.com/lcdtutorial.html >> >> Your Goldnote is mentioned as having a CCFL here: >> >> http://www.optoelectronicdoll.de/d%20CFL.htm >> >> Inverters tend to be specific to a given laptop model; finding a >> replacement can be challenging. >> >> --Chuck >> >> > From snhirsch at gmail.com Thu Oct 8 18:23:41 2009 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2009 19:23:41 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Catweasel support for Intel M2FM working! Message-ID: I'm pleased to announce that the maintainer of Linux cwtool has implemented working support for reading and writing Intel M2FM "DD" diskettes as used with the Intellec development systems :-). Karsten did some analysis of raw bit images I sent him and produced a working driver within a week! As a "smoke" test (my MDS800 is not functional at the moment), I duplicated the ISIS-II system diskette and sent the copy to a person with a working system. It boots, catalogs and otherwise looks fine. I have about 20-25 original distribution diskettes for the MDS800 and will get busy imaging them ASAP. Who would be willing to host these? They are "cooked" images, so it would be possible to extract the files from them with a bit of work. However, they're obviously of the most use to folks with access to a Catweasel board (and an Intellec system). Steve -- From richardlynch3 at tx.rr.com Thu Oct 8 18:24:39 2009 From: richardlynch3 at tx.rr.com (Richard Lynch) Date: Thu, 08 Oct 2009 18:24:39 -0500 Subject: Free VAX/Alpha hardware In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 10/8/09 4:03 PM, "Ethan Dicks" wrote: > On Thu, Oct 8, 2009 at 4:52 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: >> On Thu, 8 Oct 2009, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> >>> These are original distro floppies from the late 1980s. ?I'm honestly >>> not expecting 100% success on reading them, but fortunately, the >>> content is far from unique. >> >> My thinking is that if you image the set, then the next step is to try to >> find people with copies of the floppies you have that aren't readable. > > That would be the next step, I'd think. I have some incomplete sets that I've already imaged, so I would be willing to share. Richard From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Fri Oct 9 04:22:47 2009 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Fri, 09 Oct 2009 10:22:47 +0100 Subject: Catweasel support for Intel M2FM working! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4ACF00E7.2070306@philpem.me.uk> Steven Hirsch wrote: > I have about 20-25 original distribution diskettes for the MDS800 and > will get busy imaging them ASAP. Who would be willing to host these? I'd be more than happy to host a copy of them, and I'm sure others on the list would as well. > They are "cooked" images, so it would be possible to extract the files > from them with a bit of work. What do you mean by "cooked"? Raw M2FM data, decoded M2FM (sync words and headers intact), or just sequential sectors of data? > However, they're obviously of the most > use to folks with access to a Catweasel board (and an Intellec system). Or curious folk (like me) who enjoy the challenge of picking apart disc formats :) -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From arcbe2001 at yahoo.com Fri Oct 9 09:19:24 2009 From: arcbe2001 at yahoo.com (Russ Bartlett) Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2009 07:19:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Free VAX/Alpha hardware (and manuals) update In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <87789.16965.qm@web110414.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> I'd like the RMS (Record Mgmnt Services) manual if they are being split. Russ --- On Thu, 10/8/09, Ian King wrote: From: Ian King Subject: RE: Free VAX/Alpha hardware (and manuals) update To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Date: Thursday, October 8, 2009, 10:10 PM I would enjoy having a Gray Wall to assemble alongside our running VAX-11/780-5 and soon-to-be-running VAX-11/785.? We're running 6.2, but if an arrangement could be made to obtain the Gray Wall I would love to display it.? Actually, I'd like to move to an earlier VMS version at some point, too, so it could end up being more contemporaneous.? Having said that, I honestly don't have budget for more than shipping.? But please put my name in the hat....? Thanks -- Ian (Living Computer Museum) ________________________________________ From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of joe heck [trash3 at splab.cas.neu.edu] Sent: Thursday, October 08, 2009 2:38 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Free VAX/Alpha hardware (and manuals)? update The hardware is spoken for, it will be picked up before the weekend. The person receiving the items knows several of you anyway, so you'll probably hear from him. He is also taking the manuals, but I don't think he wants them.???If anybody wants the vms 5.0 docs, let me know or post it to the group. thanks Joe From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Oct 9 09:40:33 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2009 10:40:33 -0400 Subject: Free VAX/Alpha hardware (and manuals) update In-Reply-To: <87789.16965.qm@web110414.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <87789.16965.qm@web110414.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <85E4CDFE-0EFD-485E-9AA5-54E31F77AF87@neurotica.com> If it is indeed a *complete* Gray Wall, and if I end up with it (I'm talking with Kevin offline), then I can provide individual volumes from my TWO incomplete Gray Wall sets to people who are missing volumes. -Dave On Oct 9, 2009, at 10:19 AM, Russ Bartlett wrote: > I'd like the RMS (Record Mgmnt Services) manual if they are being > split. > > Russ > > --- On Thu, 10/8/09, Ian King wrote: > > From: Ian King > Subject: RE: Free VAX/Alpha hardware (and manuals) update > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Date: Thursday, October 8, 2009, 10:10 PM > > I would enjoy having a Gray Wall to assemble alongside our running > VAX-11/780-5 and soon-to-be-running VAX-11/785. We're running 6.2, > but if an arrangement could be made to obtain the Gray Wall I would > love to display it. Actually, I'd like to move to an earlier VMS > version at some point, too, so it could end up being more > contemporaneous. > > Having said that, I honestly don't have budget for more than > shipping. But please put my name in the hat.... Thanks -- Ian > (Living Computer Museum) > ________________________________________ > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] > On Behalf Of joe heck [trash3 at splab.cas.neu.edu] > Sent: Thursday, October 08, 2009 2:38 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Free VAX/Alpha hardware (and manuals) update > > The hardware is spoken for, it will be picked up before the weekend. > The person receiving the items knows several of you anyway, so you'll > probably hear from him. > > He is also taking the manuals, but I don't think he wants them. If > anybody wants the vms 5.0 docs, let me know or post it to the group. > > thanks > > Joe > > > > > > -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cclist at sydex.com Fri Oct 9 09:43:36 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 09 Oct 2009 07:43:36 -0700 Subject: Fixing a 386SX laptop In-Reply-To: References: , , Message-ID: <4ACEE9A8.18754.1E75B89D@cclist.sydex.com> On 9 Oct 2009 at 11:04, Alexandru Lovin wrote: > So it's the CCFL. Man, where am I gonna get a replacement for that. > I'm pretty sure it's the fluorescent lamp since that brightness > variation did look like a used neon tube, only less frequent - I guess > used neon tubes vary their luminosity according to the network's > frequency, 50 or 60 Hz. This one looked like it has much less. > > I assume I can't cheat and get it replaced with LEDs like today's LCD > screens have ? The first site I gave you is probably the best bet. If you're desperate, they can even make CCFLs to your custom order. Most likely, they have your size in stock. I'm afraid that LEDs aren't the answer here. They work well for small screens such as that on your mobile phone, but a laptop (or desktop) screen requires a lot of light. --Chuck From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Fri Oct 9 10:25:56 2009 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2009 17:25:56 +0200 Subject: Free VAX/Alpha hardware In-Reply-To: <4ACDDF2F.9090805@splab.cas.neu.edu><-7741607240251133718@unknownmsgid> References: <4ACDDF2F.9090805@splab.cas.neu.edu><-7741607240251133718@unknownmsgid> Message-ID: From: "Ethan Dicks" Sent: Thursday, October 08, 2009 10:27 PM To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: Free VAX/Alpha hardware > On Thu, Oct 8, 2009 at 4:03 PM, Rob Jarratt > wrote: >> If you ever image the floppies I would love to get a copy, even though I >> am >> not sure how I would get them to install on my MVII. Could you let us >> know >> if and when you do this? > > These are original distro floppies from the late 1980s. I'm honestly > not expecting 100% success on reading them, but fortunately, the > content is far from unique. > > As to how you might use them - I'd expect that you'd need a stack of > RX50-formatted 5.25" floppies and the disk image files and an > Intel-based PC running Linux (or perhaps Windows) to apply the image > files to the physical media. Armed with a stack of floppies, you'd > install VMS the way we did it in the old days - spending an afternoon > feeding floppies to SABACKUP. > > I have many other things on my plate, so I wouldn't expect to get to > this before the Holidays. > > -ethan Hi Ethan, when you have made images, I would love to download them. I can test the images. I have a stack of RX50 floppies waiting to be written with something useful. And I would love to "endure" what other people did some 20 years ago. It seems fun to install microVMS on my uVAX II or uVAX III, and a nice activity to do during the Holidays indeed :-) thanks, - Henk. From hoelscher-kirchbrak at freenet.de Fri Oct 9 10:40:53 2009 From: hoelscher-kirchbrak at freenet.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?H=F6lscher?=) Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2009 17:40:53 +0200 Subject: Free VAX/Alpha hardware Message-ID: Zane H. Healy & Ethan Dicks wrote: Snip ... >> This reminds me that I still need to take some time to image my >> MicroVMS distro floppies. I'm sure they aren't unique, but I'm not >> sure where I'd get uVMS from the 'net (and ISTR, there are no versions >> of full VMS that fit on an RD51 or RD52). > This is something I for one would like to see preserved. I have a > VAXstation II/RC that ran MicroVMS. To clarify about VMS / MicroVMS versions I've looked into some VMS V4.x tapes and found out the following: Version Type Date written MicroVAX support V4.0 Full 23-SEP-1984 NO V4.1 Update ?? V4.2 Full 12-JUL-1985 NO V4.3 Update 9-JAN-1986 VMS043.A-COMMON FILES / VMS043.B-VMS ONLY / Saveset VMS043.C-UVMS ONLY V4.4 Full 30-MAR-1986 YES (integral part of all Savesets) V4.5 Update 26-SEP-1986 same as with V4.3 (individual Savesets) V4.6 Full 15-JUN-1987 same as with V4.4 (integral part of all Savesets) V4.7 Update 29-OCT-1987 same as with V4.3 (individual Savesets) That seems to me a rather good proof that MicroVMS versions are (at least from V4.3 onwards) functionally equal (to the extend possible on MicroVAXen) to the corresponding VMS versions. Distribution tapes were identical, whereas the RX50 floppy sets most probably were not (as to save space/floppies). I'm still looking for the following versions: - MicroVMS V1.0 ( = MicroVMS V4.0 ???) - MicroVMS V4.0 - MicroVMS V4.1 - MicroVMS V4.2 - VMS V4.1 - VMS V4.2 MUP (Mandatory Update) - VMS 4.3A - VMS 4.5A - VMS 4.5B - VMS 4.5C - VMS 4.6A - VMS 4.6B - VMS 4.6C - VMS 4.7A Can anybody help ??? All other versions are available to anyone who wants them. Regards Ulli P.S. My MicroVAX I runs MicroVMS V4.4, my two MicroVAX IIs run a VMS V4.6 LAVC together with two VAXstations 2000 Who else has got MicroVAX Is or at least parts to build one??? I'm currently scanning EK-KD32A-OM-002 MicroVAX I Owner's Manual for me & bitsavers.org. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Oct 9 10:50:09 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2009 11:50:09 -0400 Subject: Free VAX/Alpha hardware In-Reply-To: References: <4ACDDF2F.9090805@splab.cas.neu.edu> <-7741607240251133718@unknownmsgid> Message-ID: On Fri, Oct 9, 2009 at 11:25 AM, Henk Gooijen wrote: > ...And I would love to "endure" > what other people did some 20 years ago. It seems fun to install > microVMS on my uVAX II or uVAX III, and a nice activity to do > during the Holidays indeed :-) I don't know that you could run uVMS on your uVAX-III. The uVAX-II should be fine, depending on RQDX1 vs RQDX3 issues (if any). -ethan From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Oct 9 10:56:04 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2009 11:56:04 -0400 Subject: Free VAX/Alpha hardware In-Reply-To: References: <4ACDDF2F.9090805@splab.cas.neu.edu><-7741607240251133718@unknownmsgid> Message-ID: <73E60C3B-56CD-4C9A-B93C-1F054D201ABF@neurotica.com> On Oct 9, 2009, at 11:25 AM, Henk Gooijen wrote: > when you have made images, I would love to download them. > I can test the images. I have a stack of RX50 floppies waiting to > be written with something useful. And I would love to "endure" > what other people did some 20 years ago. It seems fun to install > microVMS on my uVAX II or uVAX III, and a nice activity to do > during the Holidays indeed :-) I can tell you Henk, having done it 20 years ago, there's absolutely nothing fun about installing MicroVMS from floppies. Installing it from other media, yes, but not from floppies. ;) (that said, I'd not mind a copy myself!) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Fri Oct 9 11:36:55 2009 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2009 18:36:55 +0200 Subject: Free VAX/Alpha hardware In-Reply-To: <4ACDDF2F.9090805@splab.cas.neu.edu><-7741607240251133718@unknownmsgid> <73E60C3B-56CD-4C9A-B93C-1F054D201ABF@neurotica.com> References: <4ACDDF2F.9090805@splab.cas.neu.edu><-7741607240251133718@unknownmsgid> <73E60C3B-56CD-4C9A-B93C-1F054D201ABF@neurotica.com> Message-ID: From: "Dave McGuire" Sent: Friday, October 09, 2009 5:56 PM To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: Free VAX/Alpha hardware > On Oct 9, 2009, at 11:25 AM, Henk Gooijen wrote: >> when you have made images, I would love to download them. >> I can test the images. I have a stack of RX50 floppies waiting to >> be written with something useful. And I would love to "endure" >> what other people did some 20 years ago. It seems fun to install >> microVMS on my uVAX II or uVAX III, and a nice activity to do >> during the Holidays indeed :-) > > I can tell you Henk, having done it 20 years ago, there's absolutely > nothing fun about installing MicroVMS from floppies. > > Installing it from other media, yes, but not from floppies. ;) > > (that said, I'd not mind a copy myself!) > > -Dave I guess you are correct Dave, but may be every serious collector should have experienced that job once :-) Besides, if the installation takes an afternoon, there are always plenty of other little things to do. Like reading about classic stuff ... - Henk. From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Fri Oct 9 11:41:12 2009 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2009 18:41:12 +0200 Subject: Free VAX/Alpha hardware In-Reply-To: <4ACDDF2F.9090805@splab.cas.neu.edu><-7741607240251133718@unknownmsgid> References: <4ACDDF2F.9090805@splab.cas.neu.edu><-7741607240251133718@unknownmsgid> Message-ID: From: "Ethan Dicks" Sent: Friday, October 09, 2009 5:50 PM To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: Free VAX/Alpha hardware > On Fri, Oct 9, 2009 at 11:25 AM, Henk Gooijen > wrote: >> ...And I would love to "endure" >> what other people did some 20 years ago. It seems fun to install >> microVMS on my uVAX II or uVAX III, and a nice activity to do >> during the Holidays indeed :-) > > I don't know that you could run uVMS on your uVAX-III. The uVAX-II > should be fine, depending on RQDX1 vs RQDX3 issues (if any). > > -ethan Ahh, OK Ethan. I (ass)umed that if you can install microVMS on a uVAX II, it is also possible on a uVAX III. I have the glued-spine doc of VMS 6.2, and some orange binders of microVMS version , so when it comes to that point, I surely will have read some doc! thanks, - Henk. From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Oct 9 11:47:56 2009 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 09 Oct 2009 09:47:56 -0700 Subject: Catweasel support for Intel M2FM working! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4ACF693C.1010308@bitsavers.org> Steven Hirsch wrote: > I have about 20-25 original distribution diskettes for the MDS800 and > will get busy imaging them ASAP. Who would be willing to host these? > I'd be happy to on bitsavers. From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Oct 9 11:49:21 2009 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 09 Oct 2009 09:49:21 -0700 Subject: Free VAX/Alpha hardware (and manuals) update In-Reply-To: <85E4CDFE-0EFD-485E-9AA5-54E31F77AF87@neurotica.com> References: <87789.16965.qm@web110414.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <85E4CDFE-0EFD-485E-9AA5-54E31F77AF87@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4ACF6991.3070201@bitsavers.org> Dave McGuire wrote: > > If it is indeed a *complete* Gray Wall It is not complete. I sent out a complete set of titles and part numbers yesterday. From hoelscher-kirchbrak at freenet.de Fri Oct 9 11:52:28 2009 From: hoelscher-kirchbrak at freenet.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?H=F6lscher?=) Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2009 18:52:28 +0200 Subject: Free VAX/Alpha hardware Message-ID: Henk Gooijen wrote: > Ahh, OK Ethan. > > I (ass)umed that if you can install microVMS on a uVAX II, it is also possible > on a uVAX III. I have the glued-spine doc of VMS 6.2, and some orange binders > of microVMS version , so when it comes to that point, I surely will have > read some doc! KA650 Mayfair (MicroVAX 3500/3600, VAXstation 3200) needs VMS 4.7A minimum. All newer MVIIIs (Mayfair II/III =3300,3400,3800,3900) need VMS V5.x. Regards Ulli From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Oct 9 12:09:13 2009 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2009 10:09:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Free VAX/Alpha hardware In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 9 Oct 2009, H?lscher wrote: > KA650 Mayfair (MicroVAX 3500/3600, VAXstation 3200) needs VMS 4.7A minimum. This is what was on the RD53 of my MV-III. I regret not backing it up the day I booted it. The RD53 didn't come back up again. :-( Zane From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Oct 9 12:51:45 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2009 13:51:45 -0400 Subject: Free VAX/Alpha hardware In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Oct 9, 2009 at 12:52 PM, H?lscher wrote: > Henk Gooijen wrote: > >> Ahh, OK Ethan. >> >> I (ass)umed that if you can install microVMS on a uVAX II, it is also possible >> on a uVAX III... > > KA650 Mayfair (MicroVAX 3500/3600, VAXstation 3200) needs VMS 4.7A minimum. > All newer MVIIIs (Mayfair II/III =3300,3400,3800,3900) need VMS V5.x. Thanks for looking that up and posting it. I was starting to research it when I saw your response. We never tried to run software that old on newer hardware - as soon as we could upgrade, we did. We got off uVMS 1.0 rather quickly. I'd have to go boot up the old box, but it's probably running uVMS 4.1 or 4.2 (assuming I don't have a stiction problem). On that box in particular, I should really get around to imaging the drive - it has hardware diagnostics already set-up to test Qbus COMBOARDs (the diagnostics themselves are backed up 3 ways, but not in a working environment). -ethan From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Oct 9 13:01:22 2009 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2009 11:01:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Free VAX/Alpha hardware In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 9 Oct 2009, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On that box in particular, I should really get around to imaging the > drive - it has hardware diagnostics already set-up to test Qbus > COMBOARDs (the diagnostics themselves are backed up 3 ways, but not in > a working environment). Well... Get to work! :-) One of my Winter projects is to try to find the time to get my MicroVAX III set back up and running. It is in a 3rd party chassis with RA7x and RL01/RL02 drives. It was built to easily image and transfer RL01/02 images. It's nice to finally have everything out of storage, but there is a ton of work to be done to revive some of these systems. Zane From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Oct 9 13:01:45 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2009 14:01:45 -0400 Subject: Old VMS distros (was Re: Free VAX/Alpha hardware) Message-ID: On Fri, Oct 9, 2009 at 11:40 AM, H?lscher wrote: > To clarify about VMS / MicroVMS versions... > > That seems to me a rather good proof that MicroVMS versions are (at least from V4.3 onwards) functionally equal > (to the extend possible on MicroVAXen) to the corresponding VMS versions. That sounds right from what I remember. After that point, it became a memory/disk space issue, not an architectural issue. I don't recall when uVAX-I support was dropped, but I don't think VMS 6.0 is supported on an RD54 (though it _can_ be mostly wedged in there). > I'm still looking for the following versions: > > - MicroVMS V1.0 ( = MicroVMS V4.0 ???) I _think_ that might be the case. > - MicroVMS V4.0 > - MicroVMS V4.1 > - MicroVMS V4.2 > > - VMS V4.1 > - VMS V4.2 MUP (Mandatory Update) > - VMS 4.3A > - VMS 4.5A > - VMS 4.5B > - VMS 4.5C > - VMS 4.6A > - VMS 4.6B > - VMS 4.6C > - VMS 4.7A > > Can anybody help ??? I have many of the earlier ones of those, on original media, though I can't guarantee what will read and verify from 20-year-old media. I will certainly give it an attempt. We had an 11/750 on software support from their initial release in 1983 through 1993, MicroVAXen from their release in 1984 through 1993, and an 11/730 that probably used the same media as the 11/750, IIRC. Some of our MicroVAX stuff was on RX50; some on TK50. We ran (u)VMS and Ultrix. I was able to save about 80%-90% of the distro media when the company closed (some of the earlier stuff may have been recycled since TU58s and RX50s were considered "expensive" and "why would we ever want that old stuff anyway). I do have a pile of DEC distro floppies for the Pro series that turned into backup and transfer floppies, so are decorative, but not functional now. :-/ Since I recently went through the exercise of creating a Compaq utilities disk for my Portable II, I'm in better shape to archive RX50s. I'll have to dig out my TSZ07 to image install tapes. I will not get to any of this before Thanksgiving, so please don't ask, but feel free to rattle my cage (offlist, please) if it's January and I haven't made a peep. If you need it sooner, I can't imagine that I'm the only person in the world who still has 15-25-year-old backup media - someone must have much of this stuff spun up somewhere (though I can undertstand not wanting to make it available all the time to random passers-by). -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Oct 9 13:14:30 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2009 14:14:30 -0400 Subject: Reviving old environments (was Re: Free VAX/Alpha hardware) Message-ID: On Fri, Oct 9, 2009 at 2:01 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: > On Fri, 9 Oct 2009, Ethan Dicks wrote: > >> On that box in particular, I should really get around to imaging the >> drive - it has hardware diagnostics already set-up to test Qbus >> COMBOARDs (the diagnostics themselves are backed up 3 ways, but not in >> a working environment). > > Well... ?Get to work! ?:-) What? Do you have a Qbus COMBOARD? ;-) I think one list member ever has piped up that they found a COMBOARD in a rescued system - we sold a few thousand Unibus "COMBOARD I" (HASP/3780) boards over 12 years or so, a much smaller number of Unibus "COMBOARD II" (SNA), and an even smaller number of Qbus COMBOARDs (HASP/3780/SNA), and by comparison, a microscopic number of VAXBI COMBOARDs (HASP/3780). If anyone still cared about setting up sync links between VAXen and IBMs, I'd have more motivation to work on these sorts of projects, but since I never have gotten the DWBUA working on my 8200 after it moved to my house, I don't really have a ready-to-use environment for testing our old Unibus products (of which I still have a couple tubs). Qbus is easy, as is VAXBI. It was a great product for the 1980s, but I don't really hear any buzz about sync serial comms anymore. -ethan From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Oct 9 13:21:59 2009 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2009 11:21:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Old VMS distros (was Re: Free VAX/Alpha hardware) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 9 Oct 2009, Ethan Dicks wrote: > That sounds right from what I remember. After that point, it became a > memory/disk space issue, not an architectural issue. I don't recall > when uVAX-I support was dropped, but I don't think VMS 6.0 is > supported on an RD54 (though it _can_ be mostly wedged in there). I'm not sure what if anything was dropped in V7.3, but here are the last versions to support various VAXen. VAX Systems Supported --------------------- Unibus Based Systems o VAX-11/725 5.1-1 o VAX-11/725 5.1 o VAX-11/730 6.2 o VAX-11/750 6.2 o VAX-11/751 6.2 o VAX-11/780 6.2 o VAX-11/782 6.2 o VAX-11/785 6.2 o VAXft 110 6.2 o VAXft 310 6.2 o VAXft 410 6.2 o VAXft 610 6.2 o VAXft 810 6.2 Q-bus Based Systems o MicroVAX I 6.2 o VAXstation I 6.2 o MicroVAX II 7.2 o VAXstation II 7.2 o VAXstation II/RC 7.2 o VAXstation II/GPX 7.2 o VAXstation II/QVSS 7.2 > If you need it sooner, I can't imagine that I'm the only person in the > world who still has 15-25-year-old backup media - someone must have > much of this stuff spun up somewhere (though I can undertstand not > wanting to make it available all the time to random passers-by). Two things come to mind, one is that you're better prepared than most. Secondly as many people as possible need to work on this, since not all media will be readable. I need to inventory my media... I've archived some of it, but not much. Zane From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Oct 9 13:23:23 2009 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2009 11:23:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Reviving old environments (was Re: Free VAX/Alpha hardware) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 9 Oct 2009, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> Well... ?Get to work! ?:-) > > What? Do you have a Qbus COMBOARD? ;-) Not that I know of, but the sooner it's archived the more likely it is to be possible. Zane From pat at computer-refuge.org Fri Oct 9 13:27:51 2009 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2009 14:27:51 -0400 Subject: Old VMS distros (was Re: Free VAX/Alpha hardware) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200910091427.51139.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Friday 09 October 2009, Zane H. Healy wrote: > I'm not sure what if anything was dropped in V7.3, but here are the > last versions to support various VAXen. > > VAX Systems Supported > --------------------- > o VAX-11/780 6.2 FWIW, "Supported" != Installs and runs. I've ran at least 7.2, and possibly also 7.3 (I don't remember for sure) on my 11/780. Of course, "fast" is something that it is not. :) Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Oct 9 13:37:59 2009 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2009 11:37:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Old VMS distros (was Re: Free VAX/Alpha hardware) In-Reply-To: <200910091427.51139.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <200910091427.51139.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: On Fri, 9 Oct 2009, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > FWIW, "Supported" != Installs and runs. I've ran at least 7.2, and > possibly also 7.3 (I don't remember for sure) on my 11/780. > > Of course, "fast" is something that it is not. :) "Supported" means DEC/Compaq/HP tested it, "Not Supported" means you're on your own. :-) The largest problem in some of these cases is getting enough RAM in the box. Running an unsupported config is likely to be "painful". :-) Zane From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Oct 9 14:12:55 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2009 15:12:55 -0400 Subject: Old VMS distros (was Re: Free VAX/Alpha hardware) In-Reply-To: References: <200910091427.51139.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: On Fri, Oct 9, 2009 at 2:37 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: > On Fri, 9 Oct 2009, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > >> FWIW, "Supported" != Installs and runs. ?I've ran at least 7.2, and >> possibly also 7.3 (I don't remember for sure) on my 11/780. >> >> Of course, "fast" is something that it is not. :) I can't even imagine trying it on an 11/750, then (max memory would be 14MB, though neither of mine have more than 8). > "Supported" means DEC/Compaq/HP tested it, "Not Supported" means you're on > your own. :-) ?The largest problem in some of these cases is getting enough > RAM in the box. And for other cases, it's how large your boot volume is (11/725 w/RC25, uVAX w/RQDX3 and RD54...) With a KDA50/UDA50/KDB50 or (AFAIK) any SCSI controller that fits your box, disk size becomes irrelevant (i.e., there's no problem coming up with a couple hundred MB for the OS). >?Running an unsupported config is likely to be "painful". :-) Indeed. -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Oct 9 14:19:15 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2009 15:19:15 -0400 Subject: Reviving old environments (was Re: Free VAX/Alpha hardware) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Oct 9, 2009 at 2:23 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: > > > On Fri, 9 Oct 2009, Ethan Dicks wrote: > >>> Well... ?Get to work! ?:-) >> >> What? ?Do you have a Qbus COMBOARD? ?;-) > > Not that I know of, but the sooner it's archived the more likely it is to be > possible. What I need to image is the manufacturing test environment, not the software we distributed to customers. Our distro environment is one of the things that's backed up 3 ways (along with our development environment, etc). If you _have_ a Software Results Corporation Model 652, 752 or 1252, I'd love to hear about it. I don't have any pictures right now, but it's a full-sized Qbus card with a great honking MC68000 (could be ceramic, could be plastic), a Z8530 DUART, a 512KB patch of 41256s, and a wad of PALs, and the company name, address and support number (1.800.SRC.DATA) in the silkscreen layer. There were only a few hundred ever made. I don't know if _I_ even have a working one right now (we sold them until they sold out, and there weren't many on the bench to repair). From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Oct 9 14:34:19 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2009 15:34:19 -0400 Subject: Reviving old environments (was Re: Free VAX/Alpha hardware) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > If you _have_ a Software Results Corporation Model 652, 752 or 1252, > I'd love to hear about it. ?I don't have any pictures right now, but > it's a full-sized Qbus card with a great honking MC68000 (could be > ceramic, could be plastic), a Z8530 DUART, a 512KB patch of 41256s, > and a wad of PALs, and the company name, address and support number > (1.800.SRC.DATA) in the silkscreen layer. ?There were only a few > hundred ever made. ?I don't know if _I_ even have a working one right > now (we sold them until they sold out, and there weren't many on the > bench to repair). I have an SRC card. It says Copyright 81 82 REV 3.0 s/n 917 CBD X31. Available. -- Will From cclist at sydex.com Fri Oct 9 14:42:21 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 09 Oct 2009 12:42:21 -0700 Subject: Reviving old environments (was Re: Free VAX/Alpha hardware) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4ACF2FAD.30685.1F873D7C@cclist.sydex.com> On 9 Oct 2009 at 14:14, Ethan Dicks wrote: > I think one list member ever has piped up that they found a COMBOARD > in a rescued system - we sold a few thousand Unibus "COMBOARD I" > (HASP/3780) boards over 12 years or so, a much smaller number of > Unibus "COMBOARD II" (SNA), and an even smaller number of Qbus > COMBOARDs (HASP/3780/SNA), and by comparison, a microscopic number of That brings back a bunch of ugly memories. Back around 1983, we had an 11/750 on lease running BSD and a leased 9600 bps line (Bell 208 modem). The dealer who supplied the system did so with the assurance that he could provide bisync/HASP support on BSD. I don't recall what the board was in the 750, but I seem to remember it was something like a DU-11 (it's been far too long). The vendor brought in everyone he could hire to fix it and eventually gave up. At $5K per month for a leased line sitting idle, we were none too happy. I think we eventually ended up using an IBM PC-XT with a sync adapter to do the job. --Chuck From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Oct 9 15:04:27 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2009 16:04:27 -0400 Subject: Reviving old environments (was Re: Free VAX/Alpha hardware) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Oct 9, 2009 at 3:34 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >> If you _have_ a Software Results Corporation Model 652, 752 or 1252, >> I'd love to hear about it... > > I have an SRC card. It says Copyright 81 82 REV 3.0 s/n 917 CBD X31. Available. That's a "COMBOARD-I" - it has a 68000, a 32K field of 2114 SRAMs, a 6821 for the printer interface, and a COM5025 USART to talk to IBM or other bisync gear via HASP or 3780. The design was based on SRC's older HASPBOX product, 100% DEC hardware with 100% SRC software. There's DEC host software for it for RSX-11, RSTS, VMS, 4BSD, System V, and Ultrix. When it was new, it sold for $2500 as a hardware spare, or over $10000 with a software license. The pricing model was based on the exact model number (kept in the ROMs along with an electronic serial number - I burned many, many ROMs over the years)... the 631 was the least expensive, the 1231 the most. I was never in sales, but ISTR a 1231 card with a software license might have been as much as $25000. It certainly was no cheaper than $12500. I myself have a couple of tubs of those in various states - it's a nice board for what it does, but I say that as one of the last people who remembers how to repair them and develop for them (and as the legal owner of the IP). I wouldn't want to see it discarded, but it's the Qbus model that I'm really searching for. -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Oct 9 15:38:36 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2009 16:38:36 -0400 Subject: Reviving old environments (was Re: Free VAX/Alpha hardware) In-Reply-To: <4ACF2FAD.30685.1F873D7C@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4ACF2FAD.30685.1F873D7C@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Oct 9, 2009 at 3:42 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 9 Oct 2009 at 14:14, Ethan Dicks wrote: > >> I think one list member ever has piped up that they found a COMBOARD >> in a rescued system... > > That brings back a bunch of ugly memories. ?Back around 1983, we had > an 11/750 on lease running BSD and a leased 9600 bps line (Bell 208 > modem). ?The dealer who supplied the system did so with the assurance > that he could provide bisync/HASP support on BSD. ?I don't recall > what the board was in the 750, but I seem to remember it was > something like a DU-11 (it's been far too long). Maybe a DUP-11? IIRC, that's one of DECs comm adapters with a COM5025. It's just a serial chip with a bus interface - no smarts at all. All of the protocol implementation would be thrust on your box. In our experience, there were certain protocol implementation details that different vendors completed to varying degrees of success. >?The vendor brought > in everyone he could hire to fix it and eventually gave up. ?At $5K > per month for a leased line sitting idle, we were none too happy. COMBOARDs were available for 4.0BSD and 4.1BSD (it's where I cut my teeth on UNIX), but since we delivered a hardware-software solution, we couldn't come close to approaching the price of a DEC-card-and-software solution. OTOH, our stuff _did_ work and did work efficiently, so we did occasionally get a sale to someone who tried stuffing a DUP-11 or DUV11 into their box and was unhappy about a host-driven solution, but with the higher up-front cost, > I think we eventually ended up using an IBM PC-XT with a sync adapter > to do the job. Some people went that route in the 1980s, but our customer base, at least, wanted to move largish files and wanted a certain amount of robustness that a desktop machine didn't offer, and were willing to pay more than the cost of a dedicated PC to do it. -ethan From cclist at sydex.com Fri Oct 9 16:11:52 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 09 Oct 2009 14:11:52 -0700 Subject: Reviving old environments (was Re: Free VAX/Alpha hardware) In-Reply-To: References: , <4ACF2FAD.30685.1F873D7C@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4ACF44A8.15459.1FD92FF1@cclist.sydex.com> On 9 Oct 2009 at 16:38, Ethan Dicks wrote: > Maybe a DUP-11? IIRC, that's one of DECs comm adapters with a > COM5025. It's just a serial chip with a bus interface - no smarts at > all. All of the protocol implementation would be thrust on your box. > In our experience, there were certain protocol implementation details > that different vendors completed to varying degrees of success. Could be--as I said, it's an unpleasant memory lost in the mists. Our customer stood by the HASP implementation on his end; even though it wasn't an IBM box, he could talk to IBM boxes without problems. The package we tried to use on BSD on the 750 was from some university (not UC). With 2500 miles between the hosts, it was darned difficult figuring out what was going on. Fedex did a pretty good business with us sending a reel 1/2" tape every few days to the customer. In retrospect, the bandwidth was probably a fair fraction of what a leased line could have done anyway. --Chuck From thypope at gmail.com Fri Oct 9 16:41:30 2009 From: thypope at gmail.com (Alexandru Lovin) Date: Sat, 10 Oct 2009 00:41:30 +0300 Subject: Fixing a 386SX laptop In-Reply-To: <4ACEE9A8.18754.1E75B89D@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4ACEE9A8.18754.1E75B89D@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: Sir, thank you for your genuine intention to help me. I think I found a better link: http://www.laptopsolutions.net/lcd_backlights.htm Since a custom order would still mean I have to assemble it, these guys are probably the answer. You send the laptop, they replace it for you for a flat fee and you're off. I wouldn't know if they serve customers outside the UK (Birmingham is their city of residence). Trouble is, I can't afford an international call to hear them say yes or no. Beside that, I really really really want someone to look into the machine and tell me if a custom RAM card can be made. The thing comes with 2 MB onboard (4 chips, apparently 4x512 KB) and it has a custom RAM upgrade card...which of course, can't be found anywhere on the whole Internet. I found these guys Googling for a memory expansion card for the Zenith Mastersport 386SX. That laptop was apparently VERY well-known while this one, being a simple clone, wasn't. This is where I found them: http://www.laptopsolutions.net/images4/page16.html Now, the laptop also has a custom connector for a 2400bps modem that it could host. Being a 386SX, it is most definitely 8-bit ISA or 16-bit ISA (but really nonstandard). I think it has 25 pins or so (not sure, quoting from memory). Were there any other buses used in the 286-386SX generations except ISA? As far as I know, PCI can only be implemented starting with a 386 DX so it's definitely not PCI. I refuse to believe that there aren't any people left in this world able to design and manufacture a custom PCB. One for the memory expansion (and not necessarily with 2 MB on it, it can have more - the 386SX I heard can access up to 16 MB, just like the 286, while the leap to 4 GB was achieved with the 386DX) and one for something else. Not a modem. I could attach an external modem to it just fine (oh yes, I'm a guy who wants his computers with modems if possible) if only it had two serial ports (because the other is needed for the mouse). But then again, there are USB modems. And then there's this little device: http://www.epapersign.com/LPT-to-USB/parallel-to-usb-connector/ Yeah, I know, they say it's only for printers but I wouldn't give up that fast. I'd get one and try everything USB I have: memory sticks, mice, whatever. Including one of those cheap USB sound card sold for 10$ or so. Just see if Win '9x requests drivers after doing a deep scan for non-pnp hardware. Anyway, getting back to what I would want on that custom slot that might or might not be a weird ISA slot: an ethernet controller so that I can connect the laptop to the Internet easier. I'm pretty sure 10 Mbps, the original Ethernet, kinda means 16-bit ISA so if it's 8-bit it might even not function correctly. You see, all these modifications would require the knowledge of a real computer elder who really knows what he's doing. It goes far beyond fixing the screen. Yeah, I'd buy a lamp for my screen but have it replaced by someone who can do it without messing up. Someone who can make a PCB and put 14 MB of RAM on it (I think I remember that the onboard RAM chips use multiplexing - whatever that is - because they have 10 pins each, but the number of pins used by the memory card is 18 - not sure - and that's the correct amount of pins to use for non-multiplexed chips) instead of just two. Someone who can hardware hack an old ISA Ethernet card to work on that infamous connector of mine, if that is even possible. In short, making this machine usable today. That's what I love to do most. I specifically bought a Pentium Overdrive 83 MHz (and I have a Socket 3 motherboard) so that I could have the fastest CPU in the lowest generation that supports Windows XP. Never even managed to install it yet. But I will, some time. Sounds way out there ? I wouldn't know, I jumped when I saw the SIIG SC-UNS012. I bought two of them. I never thought that's ever possible. It is. The SATA controller on that card (Silicon Image 3112) is reported by Everest that it can also support 66 MHz operation. Thus, the controller now resides on one of my PCI-X slots. Ah, enough with my complaints. Thanks a lot for the help. On Fri, Oct 9, 2009 at 5:43 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 9 Oct 2009 at 11:04, Alexandru Lovin wrote: > > > So it's the CCFL. Man, where am I gonna get a replacement for that. > > I'm pretty sure it's the fluorescent lamp since that brightness > > variation did look like a used neon tube, only less frequent - I guess > > used neon tubes vary their luminosity according to the network's > > frequency, 50 or 60 Hz. This one looked like it has much less. > > > > I assume I can't cheat and get it replaced with LEDs like today's LCD > > screens have ? > > The first site I gave you is probably the best bet. If you're > desperate, they can even make CCFLs to your custom order. Most > likely, they have your size in stock. > > I'm afraid that LEDs aren't the answer here. They work well for > small screens such as that on your mobile phone, but a laptop (or > desktop) screen requires a lot of light. > > --Chuck > > From cclist at sydex.com Fri Oct 9 17:10:37 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 09 Oct 2009 15:10:37 -0700 Subject: Fixing a 386SX laptop In-Reply-To: References: , <4ACEE9A8.18754.1E75B89D@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4ACF526D.4742.200EF87F@cclist.sydex.com> On 10 Oct 2009 at 0:41, Alexandru Lovin wrote: > Trouble is, I can't afford an international call to hear them say yes > or no. Beside that, I really really really want someone to look into > the machine and tell me if a custom RAM card can be made. The thing > comes with 2 MB onboard (4 chips, apparently 4x512 KB) and it has a > custom RAM upgrade card...which of course, can't be found anywhere on > the whole Internet. You didn't say where in the world you were located. I'm sure that there must be someone close enough to you. > Now, the laptop also has a custom connector for a 2400bps modem that > it could host. Being a 386SX, it is most definitely 8-bit ISA or > 16-bit ISA (but really nonstandard). I think it has 25 pins or so (not > sure, quoting from memory). Were there any other buses used in the > 286-386SX generations except ISA? As far as I know, PCI can only be > implemented starting with a 386 DX so it's definitely not PCI. I'm sure it's nothing as exotic as PCI for a 386SX laptop. It could well be a version of ISA, but some devices used their own bus implementation, so it's difficult to say. > I refuse to believe that there aren't any people left in this world > able to design and manufacture a custom PCB. One for the memory > expansion (and not necessarily with 2 MB on it, it can have more - the > 386SX I heard can access up to 16 MB, just like the 286, while the > leap to 4 GB was achieved with the 386DX) and one for something else. The question is more of "who would want to design a board for a little-known vintage laptop?" Given sufficient monetary impetus, you could certainly find someone to do it, but otherwise, why would anyone want to do it? I think it's a better use of your time to enjoy the thing for what it is, not what it was never intended to be. --Chuck From thypope at gmail.com Fri Oct 9 17:51:23 2009 From: thypope at gmail.com (Alexandru Lovin) Date: Sat, 10 Oct 2009 01:51:23 +0300 Subject: Fixing a 386SX laptop In-Reply-To: <4ACF526D.4742.200EF87F@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4ACEE9A8.18754.1E75B89D@cclist.sydex.com> <4ACF526D.4742.200EF87F@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Oct 10, 2009 at 1:10 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 10 Oct 2009 at 0:41, Alexandru Lovin wrote: > > > Trouble is, I can't afford an international call to hear them say yes > > or no. Beside that, I really really really want someone to look into > > the machine and tell me if a custom RAM card can be made. The thing > > comes with 2 MB onboard (4 chips, apparently 4x512 KB) and it has a > > custom RAM upgrade card...which of course, can't be found anywhere on > > the whole Internet. > > You didn't say where in the world you were located. I'm sure that > there must be someone close enough to you. > Romania. Nope, save from the motherboard fixer who's probably gotten sick of old hardware, there is no other craftsman able or willing to concoct a custom PCB. All those that were here already ran away abroad - to Canada, US, Germany, France, Italy, Spain, etc. > > > Now, the laptop also has a custom connector for a 2400bps modem that > > it could host. Being a 386SX, it is most definitely 8-bit ISA or > > 16-bit ISA (but really nonstandard). I think it has 25 pins or so (not > > sure, quoting from memory). Were there any other buses used in the > > 286-386SX generations except ISA? As far as I know, PCI can only be > > implemented starting with a 386 DX so it's definitely not PCI. > > I'm sure it's nothing as exotic as PCI for a 386SX laptop. It could > well be a version of ISA, but some devices used their own bus > implementation, so it's difficult to say. > Would a hardware wizard be able to tell if I sent him the laptop? > > > I refuse to believe that there aren't any people left in this world > > able to design and manufacture a custom PCB. One for the memory > > expansion (and not necessarily with 2 MB on it, it can have more - the > > 386SX I heard can access up to 16 MB, just like the 286, while the > > leap to 4 GB was achieved with the 386DX) and one for something else. > > The question is more of "who would want to design a board for a > little-known vintage laptop?" Given sufficient monetary impetus, you > could certainly find someone to do it, but otherwise, why would > anyone want to do it? > Exactly. I want to know how much for all this. I'll patiently gather the money and then pay hard cash: here, do it. > > I think it's a better use of your time to enjoy the thing for what it > is, not what it was never intended to be. > I disagree. I find your PC philosophy wrong. You see, when someone thinks of a system, they want it to sell in great numbers. You know the iPhone is an Apple first and a phone second. You know you can barely understand the guy calling you from his iPhone (we use GSM here, not CDMA, except for just one operator). But the thing sells because you have to slide to answer. Or unlock the keypad...sorry, touchscreen. So, the persons who make up a product don't necessarily want it to be the best. They want people to feel they have sufficient resources (RAM + CPU) and enough upgrade paths (like this modem and extra memory card) to suit most of their needs. That's why most companies cater to the village idiot - they think those are the most numerous. I don't know if that's a fact, but it's certainly what they think. Most importantly, the user must not feel ripped off. Also, he must not find the price tag restrictive. And you should know better than I do what the prices for PCs and laptops were in 1992. Thousands of dollars. The same performance range, by today's standards, costs much less, I would say a quarter. So of course they didn't mean it to have 16 MB of RAM! That would have made the price skyrocket! Of course they didn't mean it to have an Ethernet card: only entities with big budgets could afford networking back then. And that USB adapter would only push things to the limits. One extra thing I'm considering is calling esupport.com and ask them for a BIOS upgrade - the machine actually has an IBM PC BIOS, it's the first time I've ever seen such a BIOS. My main machine is a dual Pentium 3 - 1.4 GHz. With 2 GB of RDRAM. Runs Vista without problems. Windows 7 awards systems with a score from 1.0 to 7.9 and this system's CPUs got 3.3. That RDRAM got the same mark. A 386 DX system can have PCI and that means it can have SATA. Or Gigabit Ethernet. Or a DirectX 10 video card. I never will understand this type of thinking: oh just use it for what it was made. Windows 7 can run on a K6-2 CPU. I'm pretty confident it can also run on a K6 and K5. Won't install or run on Pentium MMX - tested. The motherboard just needs to be fully ACPI 1.0 compliant and it must host no less than 512 MB of RAM. But hey, why have the latest compatibility and run decently recent versions of software? The K6-2 was made for Windows 9x or ME at most, so you should use that. Does that make sense? I know there are people who keep a 386 for the single task of playing their favourite DOS games, but there's Dosbox. And it can render the games in higher resolutions and with somewhat better methods of rendering. But it was not made for that! I can't find the logic. Whatever I can do, I probably want to do it on a computer. I don't want a flame war with you, Sir, but this is me. From brianlanning at gmail.com Fri Oct 9 21:34:02 2009 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2009 21:34:02 -0500 Subject: Catweasel support for Intel M2FM working! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6dbe3c380910091934s719c5258g5336a925102c34ae@mail.gmail.com> Sorry to hijack the thread. But could you tell me if this linux catweasel tool can read and write apple 2e and 2gs 5.25" and 3.5" floppies? Thanks. brian On Thu, Oct 8, 2009 at 6:23 PM, Steven Hirsch wrote: > I'm pleased to announce that the maintainer of Linux cwtool has implemented > working support for reading and writing Intel M2FM "DD" diskettes as used > with the Intellec development systems :-). > > Karsten did some analysis of raw bit images I sent him and produced a > working driver within a week! As a "smoke" test (my MDS800 is not > functional at the moment), I duplicated the ISIS-II system diskette and sent > the copy to a person with a working system. It boots, catalogs and > otherwise looks fine. > > I have about 20-25 original distribution diskettes for the MDS800 and will > get busy imaging them ASAP. Who would be willing to host these? > > They are "cooked" images, so it would be possible to extract the files from > them with a bit of work. However, they're obviously of the most use to > folks with access to a Catweasel board (and an Intellec system). > From 5flush at sympatico.ca Fri Oct 9 14:17:15 2009 From: 5flush at sympatico.ca (Ben Bornstein) Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2009 15:17:15 -0400 Subject: What's a "computer console" selectric called? Message-ID: I DONT KNOW !! POPS From snhirsch at gmail.com Fri Oct 9 16:23:57 2009 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2009 17:23:57 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Catweasel support for Intel M2FM working! In-Reply-To: <4ACF00E7.2070306@philpem.me.uk> References: <4ACF00E7.2070306@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: On Fri, 9 Oct 2009, Philip Pemberton wrote: >> They are "cooked" images, so it would be possible to extract the files from >> them with a bit of work. > > What do you mean by "cooked"? Raw M2FM data, decoded M2FM (sync words and > headers intact), or just sequential sectors of data? They are sequential sectors of data. >> However, they're obviously of the most >> use to folks with access to a Catweasel board (and an Intellec system). > > Or curious folk (like me) who enjoy the challenge of picking apart disc > formats :) Indeed. It would be great to have a utility that can read/write files from images. For extra credit, how about a FUSE module for Linux or MacOSX? Steve -- From snhirsch at gmail.com Fri Oct 9 16:25:59 2009 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2009 17:25:59 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Odd list behavior! Message-ID: Is anyone else chronically failing to see their own messages show up on the list? For several months now, I've only been seeing other folks' responses to my messages and never the messages themselves. Sent several notes to Jay West, but never saw a response. If this is expected behavior, can someone advise? Steve -- From thypope at gmail.com Sat Oct 10 06:33:50 2009 From: thypope at gmail.com (Alexandru Lovin) Date: Sat, 10 Oct 2009 14:33:50 +0300 Subject: Fixing a 386SX laptop In-Reply-To: References: <4ACEE9A8.18754.1E75B89D@cclist.sydex.com> <4ACF526D.4742.200EF87F@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: Oh and one more thing, Sir. When I said I don't want a flame war, I didn't mean we should stop talking. I meant that's the way I see things - if you give me a 286 motherboard, I'll be looking for the best CPU for that board and all the features present in modern computers: sound card, network card, video card, tv tuner, etc. I'm hoping to get a hint answer from you: ok, you want all those over-the-top modifications. I think this man (or this company) can help you. What are the prices for a 386 DX laptop? Does anyone have one of those / is willing to sell it? I don't need the battery to be functional, nor do I care about the CPU speed (if it's a 386DX that's enough for me). I'll just plug it in and run many old things on it, after upgrading it as much as possible. I don't care about the brand, either. I need it to have basic things like a hard drive, a floppy drive and maybe a modem (I'm not keen on serial cables or laplink cables, really). I am interested in as much RAM as possible, however. Even if it has 2 MB of RAM but can be upgraded to 8-10-16-32 or whatever, it's better than a laptop having 1 or 2 MB base memory, upgraded to 4, but impossible to upgrade further. I also really need it to have an LCD screen. Grayscale, of course. I'm not even thinking of a colour screen because I know LCDs were far from colors at that time. But if it had a CRT screen (although, as far as I know that was over with 8086 or 80286 laptops) it would be very hard to find a replacement, should the original fail. You can get a custom made LCD but I can't imagine there is someone left on the planet making CRTs. I apologize if I offended you, Sir. On Sat, Oct 10, 2009 at 1:51 AM, Alexandru Lovin wrote: > > > On Sat, Oct 10, 2009 at 1:10 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > >> On 10 Oct 2009 at 0:41, Alexandru Lovin wrote: >> >> > Trouble is, I can't afford an international call to hear them say yes >> > or no. Beside that, I really really really want someone to look into >> > the machine and tell me if a custom RAM card can be made. The thing >> > comes with 2 MB onboard (4 chips, apparently 4x512 KB) and it has a >> > custom RAM upgrade card...which of course, can't be found anywhere on >> > the whole Internet. >> >> You didn't say where in the world you were located. I'm sure that >> there must be someone close enough to you. >> > > Romania. Nope, save from the motherboard fixer who's probably gotten sick > of old hardware, there is no other craftsman able or willing to concoct a > custom PCB. All those that were here already ran away abroad - to Canada, > US, Germany, France, Italy, Spain, etc. > > >> >> > Now, the laptop also has a custom connector for a 2400bps modem that >> > it could host. Being a 386SX, it is most definitely 8-bit ISA or >> > 16-bit ISA (but really nonstandard). I think it has 25 pins or so (not >> > sure, quoting from memory). Were there any other buses used in the >> > 286-386SX generations except ISA? As far as I know, PCI can only be >> > implemented starting with a 386 DX so it's definitely not PCI. >> >> I'm sure it's nothing as exotic as PCI for a 386SX laptop. It could >> well be a version of ISA, but some devices used their own bus >> implementation, so it's difficult to say. >> > > Would a hardware wizard be able to tell if I sent him the laptop? > > >> >> > I refuse to believe that there aren't any people left in this world >> > able to design and manufacture a custom PCB. One for the memory >> > expansion (and not necessarily with 2 MB on it, it can have more - the >> > 386SX I heard can access up to 16 MB, just like the 286, while the >> > leap to 4 GB was achieved with the 386DX) and one for something else. >> >> The question is more of "who would want to design a board for a >> little-known vintage laptop?" Given sufficient monetary impetus, you >> could certainly find someone to do it, but otherwise, why would >> anyone want to do it? >> > > Exactly. I want to know how much for all this. I'll patiently gather the > money and then pay hard cash: here, do it. > > >> >> I think it's a better use of your time to enjoy the thing for what it >> is, not what it was never intended to be. >> > > I disagree. I find your PC philosophy wrong. You see, when someone thinks > of a system, they want it to sell in great numbers. You know the iPhone is > an Apple first and a phone second. You know you can barely understand the > guy calling you from his iPhone (we use GSM here, not CDMA, except for just > one operator). But the thing sells because you have to slide to answer. Or > unlock the keypad...sorry, touchscreen. > > So, the persons who make up a product don't necessarily want it to be the > best. They want people to feel they have sufficient resources (RAM + CPU) > and enough upgrade paths (like this modem and extra memory card) to suit > most of their needs. That's why most companies cater to the village idiot - > they think those are the most numerous. I don't know if that's a fact, but > it's certainly what they think. > > Most importantly, the user must not feel ripped off. Also, he must not find > the price tag restrictive. And you should know better than I do what the > prices for PCs and laptops were in 1992. Thousands of dollars. The same > performance range, by today's standards, costs much less, I would say a > quarter. > > So of course they didn't mean it to have 16 MB of RAM! That would have made > the price skyrocket! Of course they didn't mean it to have an Ethernet card: > only entities with big budgets could afford networking back then. And that > USB adapter would only push things to the limits. One extra thing I'm > considering is calling esupport.com and ask them for a BIOS upgrade - the > machine actually has an IBM PC BIOS, it's the first time I've ever seen such > a BIOS. > > My main machine is a dual Pentium 3 - 1.4 GHz. With 2 GB of RDRAM. Runs > Vista without problems. Windows 7 awards systems with a score from 1.0 to > 7.9 and this system's CPUs got 3.3. That RDRAM got the same mark. A 386 DX > system can have PCI and that means it can have SATA. Or Gigabit Ethernet. Or > a DirectX 10 video card. > > I never will understand this type of thinking: oh just use it for what it > was made. Windows 7 can run on a K6-2 CPU. I'm pretty confident it can also > run on a K6 and K5. Won't install or run on Pentium MMX - tested. The > motherboard just needs to be fully ACPI 1.0 compliant and it must host no > less than 512 MB of RAM. > > But hey, why have the latest compatibility and run decently recent versions > of software? The K6-2 was made for Windows 9x or ME at most, so you should > use that. Does that make sense? > > I know there are people who keep a 386 for the single task of playing their > favourite DOS games, but there's Dosbox. And it can render the games in > higher resolutions and with somewhat better methods of rendering. But it was > not made for that! > > I can't find the logic. Whatever I can do, I probably want to do it on a > computer. I don't want a flame war with you, Sir, but this is me. > From brianlanning at gmail.com Sat Oct 10 08:55:22 2009 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Sat, 10 Oct 2009 08:55:22 -0500 Subject: Odd list behavior! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6dbe3c380910100655v72e597e4p2b6b526015c8fa6f@mail.gmail.com> yep. happens to me, almost since i joined. On Fri, Oct 9, 2009 at 4:25 PM, Steven Hirsch wrote: > Is anyone else chronically failing to see their own messages show up on the > list? For several months now, I've only been seeing other folks' responses > to my messages and never the messages themselves. > > Sent several notes to Jay West, but never saw a response. If this is > expected behavior, can someone advise? > > Steve > > > -- > From gyorpb at gmail.com Sat Oct 10 09:38:57 2009 From: gyorpb at gmail.com (Joost van de Griek) Date: Sat, 10 Oct 2009 16:38:57 +0200 Subject: Odd list behavior! In-Reply-To: <6dbe3c380910100655v72e597e4p2b6b526015c8fa6f@mail.gmail.com> References: <6dbe3c380910100655v72e597e4p2b6b526015c8fa6f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <83633A28-8246-44AD-80F6-095BC39A52DB@gmail.com> I believe it's a GMail thing. .tsooJ -- Sent from my iPhone 3G -- Joost van de Griek On 10 okt 2009, at 15:55, Brian Lanning wrote: > yep. happens to me, almost since i joined. > > > On Fri, Oct 9, 2009 at 4:25 PM, Steven Hirsch > wrote: > >> Is anyone else chronically failing to see their own messages show >> up on the >> list? For several months now, I've only been seeing other folks' >> responses >> to my messages and never the messages themselves. >> >> Sent several notes to Jay West, but never saw a response. If this is >> expected behavior, can someone advise? >> >> Steve >> >> >> -- >> From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Oct 10 10:52:08 2009 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Sat, 10 Oct 2009 09:52:08 -0600 Subject: What's a "computer console" selectric =?UTF-8?Q?called=3F?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <29c49207ae5d8d401f47132615f258bf@localhost> On Fri, 9 Oct 2009 15:17:15 -0400, "Ben Bornstein" <5flush at sympatico.ca> wrote: What I do know is that they are two different machines, and I think built by seperate divisions in IBM at the time. Console Selectric/ I/O Selectric would discribe it, I don't think there was a way to get *one* with out buying a IBM COMPUTER. > I DONT KNOW !! > POPS From cclist at sydex.com Sat Oct 10 11:10:30 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 10 Oct 2009 09:10:30 -0700 Subject: Fixing a 386SX laptop In-Reply-To: References: , <4ACF526D.4742.200EF87F@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4AD04F86.127.23EBA1C9@cclist.sydex.com> I think that a better forum for this might be the Vintage Computer Forum (http://www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum/). It tends to specialize more in later systems and does have topics both for hardware technical support as well as vintage laptops. Very likely, you can find another owner of your system to chat with. Best regards, Chuck From vern4wright at yahoo.com Sat Oct 10 11:37:59 2009 From: vern4wright at yahoo.com (Vernon Wright) Date: Sat, 10 Oct 2009 09:37:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: What's a "computer console" selectric called? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <385858.60387.qm@web65505.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> IIRC, an IBM 1080. Is that what you mean? Vern Wright --- On Fri, 10/9/09, Ben Bornstein <5flush at sympatico.ca> wrote: > From: Ben Bornstein <5flush at sympatico.ca> > Subject: What's a "computer console" selectric called? > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Date: Friday, October 9, 2009, 12:17 PM > I DONT KNOW !! > POPS > From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Sat Oct 10 12:02:19 2009 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Sat, 10 Oct 2009 17:02:19 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Odd list behavior! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <376455.38172.qm@web23406.mail.ird.yahoo.com> My messages go through ok. There was a period (near the start of this year?) when they were sent straight back to me by the server, but that has been sorted. Are you sure that your messages aren't being dumped into a spam folder? I often find that messages I send to groups often end up in the spam folder. Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk --- On Fri, 9/10/09, Steven Hirsch wrote: From: Steven Hirsch Subject: Odd list behavior! To: "Classic Computers Mailing List" Date: Friday, 9 October, 2009, 10:25 PM Is anyone else chronically failing to see their own messages show up on the list?? For several months now, I've only been seeing other folks' responses to my messages and never the messages themselves. Sent several notes to Jay West, but never saw a response.? If this is expected behavior, can someone advise? Steve -- From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Oct 10 12:23:05 2009 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 10 Oct 2009 10:23:05 -0700 Subject: What's a "computer console" selectric called? In-Reply-To: <29c49207ae5d8d401f47132615f258bf@localhost> References: <29c49207ae5d8d401f47132615f258bf@localhost> Message-ID: <4AD0C2F9.4080509@bitsavers.org> bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca wrote: > I don't think there was a way to get *one* with out > buying a IBM COMPUTER. > I/O Selectrics were an IBM OEM product. DEC used them in a RAND contract to build JOSS terminals, SDS and CDC used them for console printers, for example. What you couldn't get were IBM Executive typewriters with computer interfaces, like on the 1620. This was solved by a mechanical kludge that Soroban added to them, which was killed off by the release of the Selectric, and by how unreliable the Soroban adapter was. DEC only used Sorobans on the PDP-1, switched to TTY 28's for the PDP-4, then ASCII printers afterwards. Other alternatives for typewriters were Flexowriters and 5-level Teletypes (ASCII and the model 33/35 hadn't been invented yet). From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Oct 10 12:24:28 2009 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 10 Oct 2009 10:24:28 -0700 Subject: Catweasel support for Intel M2FM working! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4AD0C34C.6050807@bitsavers.org> Steven Hirsch wrote: > I'm pleased to announce that the maintainer of Linux cwtool has > implemented working support for reading and writing Intel M2FM "DD" > diskettes as used with the Intellec development systems :-). > Is he planning another release? The last one posted is .13 From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Oct 10 12:46:40 2009 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Sat, 10 Oct 2009 11:46:40 -0600 Subject: What's a "computer console" selectric =?UTF-8?Q?called=3F?= In-Reply-To: <4AD0C2F9.4080509@bitsavers.org> References: <29c49207ae5d8d401f47132615f258bf@localhost> <4AD0C2F9.4080509@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Sat, 10 Oct 2009 10:23:05 -0700, Al Kossow wrote: > bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca wrote: >> I don't think there was a way to get *one* with out >> buying a IBM COMPUTER. >> > > I/O Selectrics were an IBM OEM product. DEC used them in a RAND > contract to build JOSS terminals, SDS and CDC used them for console > printers, for example. > > What you couldn't get were IBM Executive > typewriters with computer interfaces, like on the 1620. Could they use the same typeballs? From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Sat Oct 10 13:21:16 2009 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sat, 10 Oct 2009 19:21:16 +0100 Subject: Catweasel support for Intel M2FM working! In-Reply-To: References: <4ACF00E7.2070306@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4AD0D09C.2050102@philpem.me.uk> Steven Hirsch wrote: >> What do you mean by "cooked"? Raw M2FM data, decoded M2FM (sync words >> and headers intact), or just sequential sectors of data? > > They are sequential sectors of data. So basically they are the M2FM equivalent of a WinImage "IMD" file. Nice. (As long as you know the sector sizes beforehand...) >> Or curious folk (like me) who enjoy the challenge of picking apart >> disc formats :) > > Indeed. It would be great to have a utility that can read/write files > from images. Point me to a filesystem spec and some demo images and it might turn into my next "little project".. :) > For extra credit, how about a FUSE module for Linux or > MacOSX? That sounds like a lot more fun. A lot of work, but also a lot more fun (and interesting). I'd love to do a FUSE mounter for BBC Micro (Acorn DFS and possibly ADFS) disc images, but it's still on my "maybe later" list... :) -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From cclist at sydex.com Sat Oct 10 13:31:20 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 10 Oct 2009 11:31:20 -0700 Subject: What's a "computer console" selectric called? In-Reply-To: References: , <4AD0C2F9.4080509@bitsavers.org>, Message-ID: <4AD07088.18622.246C9514@cclist.sydex.com> > On Sat, 10 Oct 2009 10:23:05 -0700, Al Kossow wrote: > > What you couldn't get were IBM Executive >> typewriters with computer interfaces, like on the 1620. On 10 Oct 2009 at 11:46, bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca wrote: > Could they use the same typeballs? Different animals entirely. The 1620 Model B typewriter is old-style typebars. But was the 1620 a true "Executive"? The Executive that I used during the 70's was a proportional-spacing beast with a split spacebar ("em" and "en" spaces). Using correcting paper (little slips of paper with white waxy pigment on them) could be very challenging... On the other hand, the typed output was magnificent--not really surpassed until laser printers. --Chuck From brianlanning at gmail.com Sat Oct 10 14:09:27 2009 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Sat, 10 Oct 2009 14:09:27 -0500 Subject: Odd list behavior! In-Reply-To: <83633A28-8246-44AD-80F6-095BC39A52DB@gmail.com> References: <6dbe3c380910100655v72e597e4p2b6b526015c8fa6f@mail.gmail.com> <83633A28-8246-44AD-80F6-095BC39A52DB@gmail.com> Message-ID: <6dbe3c380910101209g574d7023xefa21c654522696b@mail.gmail.com> On Sat, Oct 10, 2009 at 9:38 AM, Joost van de Griek wrote: > I believe it's a GMail thing. > I noticed that also. Sometimes, it rolls up the emails so that I can't see them, even though I haven't read them yet. brian From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Oct 10 14:12:41 2009 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 10 Oct 2009 12:12:41 -0700 Subject: What's a "computer console" selectric called? In-Reply-To: <4AD07088.18622.246C9514@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4AD0C2F9.4080509@bitsavers.org>, <4AD07088.18622.246C9514@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4AD0DCA9.9060107@bitsavers.org> Chuck Guzis wrote: > But was the 1620 a true "Executive"? sorry, it was a model B http://www-03.ibm.com/ibm/history/exhibits/modelb/modelb_intro.html From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Oct 10 14:30:05 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 10 Oct 2009 15:30:05 -0400 Subject: Free VAX/Alpha hardware In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Oct 9, 2009, at 11:40 AM, H?lscher wrote: > Who else has got MicroVAX Is or at least parts to build one??? > I'm currently scanning EK-KD32A-OM-002 MicroVAX I Owner's Manual > for me & bitsavers.org. I have a MicroVAX-I. 4MB, BA23, (dead) RD53. I'm pretty sure I have an additional CPU board set. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Oct 10 14:30:36 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 10 Oct 2009 15:30:36 -0400 Subject: Free VAX/Alpha hardware In-Reply-To: References: <4ACDDF2F.9090805@splab.cas.neu.edu><-7741607240251133718@unknownmsgid> <73E60C3B-56CD-4C9A-B93C-1F054D201ABF@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Oct 9, 2009, at 12:36 PM, Henk Gooijen wrote: >>> when you have made images, I would love to download them. >>> I can test the images. I have a stack of RX50 floppies waiting to >>> be written with something useful. And I would love to "endure" >>> what other people did some 20 years ago. It seems fun to install >>> microVMS on my uVAX II or uVAX III, and a nice activity to do >>> during the Holidays indeed :-) >> >> I can tell you Henk, having done it 20 years ago, there's >> absolutely nothing fun about installing MicroVMS from floppies. >> >> Installing it from other media, yes, but not from floppies. ;) >> >> (that said, I'd not mind a copy myself!) > > I guess you are correct Dave, but may be every serious collector > should have experienced that job once :-) Besides, if the > installation > takes an afternoon, there are always plenty of other little things > to do. > Like reading about classic stuff ... Agree 100%.. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Oct 10 14:31:25 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 10 Oct 2009 15:31:25 -0400 Subject: Free VAX/Alpha hardware (and manuals) update In-Reply-To: <4ACF6991.3070201@bitsavers.org> References: <87789.16965.qm@web110414.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <85E4CDFE-0EFD-485E-9AA5-54E31F77AF87@neurotica.com> <4ACF6991.3070201@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <73C8846C-7C6A-4C5F-8479-C192F3BFEC28@neurotica.com> On Oct 9, 2009, at 12:49 PM, Al Kossow wrote: >> If it is indeed a *complete* Gray Wall > > It is not complete. I sent out a complete set of > titles and part numbers yesterday. Ahh, I had not yet gone through it. Thank you Al, I appreciate it. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cclist at sydex.com Sat Oct 10 15:05:36 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 10 Oct 2009 13:05:36 -0700 Subject: What's a "computer console" selectric called? In-Reply-To: <4AD07088.18622.246C9514@cclist.sydex.com> References: , , <4AD07088.18622.246C9514@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4AD086A0.19417.24C2E0E0@cclist.sydex.com> Something that has itched at the back of my mind for decades, related to this topic: What was used to produce many of the S/360 "programming" manuals? An example is the DOS F-level assembler: http://tinyurl.com/yhcd59n These are clearly typewritten (not typeset) in a monospaced font. My own copy dates from a couple of years earlier (than this 1968 copy) but has a similar appearance. Anyone know for certain? Even these "programmer's manuals" were superbly done, when compared to some of the Univac documenation of the same period, run off on a badly-timed drum printer (made my eyes hurt to read it). --Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Oct 10 18:01:08 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 10 Oct 2009 16:01:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Fixing a 386SX laptop In-Reply-To: References: <4ACEE9A8.18754.1E75B89D@cclist.sydex.com> <4ACF526D.4742.200EF87F@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20091010152933.R5976@shell.lmi.net> On Sat, 10 Oct 2009, Alexandru Lovin wrote: > I'm hoping to get a hint answer from you: ok, you want all those > over-the-top modifications. I think this man (or this company) can help you. The problem that you are going to run into, is that those WITH those abilities have their OWN projects that keep them busy. You have to respect that, and the fact that they are MUCH more interested in THEIR projects than they are in YOUR projects. > I apologize if I offended you, Sir. Mr. Guzis is not easily offended (as far as I can tell). But, he is an exceptionally busy man. You should feel honored that he took time to answer some of your questions. He has significant projects of his own. If I wanted to hire him to do something for me, I doubt that I could afford it unless he were fascinated with the idea. I know somebody who builds race-cars. (Sorry, Jay, but analogies are like . . . ) He is currently building an electric car, because he is interested in it. If I wanted him to replace the distributor on my car, his time would be worth more than my car is. What you need to do is to get started towards developing your own skills. I think that a Weller TCPN is a good beginning soldering iron. You will want a GOOD VOM, but a Chinese Harbor Freight one MIGHT be adequate temporarily while you put the funds together. Then start shopping for a used oscilloscope. Practice soldering and de-soldering. I improved my soldering skills by buying a bare board of a motherboard, and soldering sockets onto it. Open up that Chinese VOM, and resolder every bad solder joint in it. When you reach the point where you can de-solder a part off of a board and re-solder it, or a replacement on, then you will be ready to learn what to do. Get a copy of "Art of Electronics", and schematic diagrams of everything that you own. Go to the "motherboard-man" who is near you. Do small jobs for him, for free, such as making cables, etc. Get him to tell you what he is doing on his projects. Assist him. Doing it for free IS WORTH IT! Eventually, when you have acquired some skills, work out an apprenticeship with him. If you really help him, he will teach you everything that he knows. Eventually, he will start paying you to do some work for him (and to keep you from leaving to go work elsewhere). Soon you will be able to do your own projects. But, you will find that in addition to your own projects, everybody around will want you to do projects for them, and there just isn't enough time. Just one more thing. You have to promise to train your own apprentice, and to be patient with him. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Oct 10 18:52:27 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 10 Oct 2009 16:52:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: What's a "computer console" selectric =?UTF-8?Q?called=3F?= In-Reply-To: References: <29c49207ae5d8d401f47132615f258bf@localhost> <4AD0C2F9.4080509@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <20091010165015.X5976@shell.lmi.net> On Sat, 10 Oct 2009 bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca wrote: > Could they use the same typeballs? What were the differences between the "console selectric" and the I/O selectric mechanism used in MTSTs and MCSTs? (Magnetic Tapwe Selectric Typewriter and Magnetic Card Selectric Typewriter, commonly used to do form letters, etc.) From thypope at gmail.com Sat Oct 10 19:40:13 2009 From: thypope at gmail.com (Alexandru Lovin) Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2009 03:40:13 +0300 Subject: Fixing a 386SX laptop In-Reply-To: <20091010152933.R5976@shell.lmi.net> References: <4ACEE9A8.18754.1E75B89D@cclist.sydex.com> <4ACF526D.4742.200EF87F@cclist.sydex.com> <20091010152933.R5976@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: Ok, Sir, you want me to do explaining? I will do explaining then. With all the respect I owe to everyone subscribed to this list. The problem that you are going to run into, is that those WITH those > abilities have their OWN projects that keep them busy. You have to > respect that, and the fact that they are MUCH more interested in THEIR > projects than they are in YOUR projects. > The same Mr. Guzis (yes, he's an exceptionally respectable man, I noticed, but I didn't know he is usually busy) told me that enough money should grease my own projects that I have little to no expertise in. So it's a question of finding the right man and having enough money to do all that. Why do I even need a 386SX laptop at 20 MHz to have USB via the LPT port and a custom card to act as a network card and as much RAM as I can give to it ? Simple. Testing the limits. I want to test what hardware Windows installs on. A 386 won't get farther than Win95 and apparently '98 (by running Win98 setup using "setup.exe /nm"). I'm not forgetting Linux but that one is much more modular so I guess even the latest versions would probably allow the compiling of the kernel for a 386SX or DX. I asked for someone to sell me a 386DX laptop. Mr. Guzis kindly guided me to another website. It seems that a gentleman who has his own page on classiccmp (a Mr. Dunfield) has put a Eurocom Note3300 up for sale in September 2008 (along with other old laptops). I'm just hoping he still has it because he asked for $10 for it, which is absolutely cheap. Why all this old hardware? A while ago, I sent an e-mail to this same list, asking if people would be interested in having computers with more than one old processors. Like a system with 16 AMD 386DX-40 CPUs and a lot of RAM. Or a newly-made Altair 8800 with 32 Z80 CPUs at 20 MHz or so. The ones who did answer were not very interested in the idea. But I still want to do it. Of course, it requires digging for old hardware everywhere I can find it, ask around for specs, ask investors if they want to finance the idea... Wanna know the results? I still have Hercules 8-bit graphics card I paid about 100$ for, including shipping, from the US, in the original USPS box and with the sponge shock absorbers. That one will most probably fit the Altair 8800's S-100 bus and will be able to do graphics, although this thing might be able to display colours in some sort of clone of the CGA mode (it's from 1988, know anything about it?) and I don't want that. Still have to talk to an expert, prefferably from the old Hercules team itself. I need to make a new video chipset, able to display the Hercules graphics mode but in the resolutions of today, far beyond the original. I have detailed specs of what to put in which system and how to make them cluster computers. Of course. But investors barely understand the idea. Except for one or two Americans (who were really out of time to discuss this) and one Danish man (who was out of money). > I know somebody who builds race-cars. (Sorry, Jay, but analogies are like > . . . ) He is currently building an electric car, because he is > interested in it. If I wanted him to replace the distributor on my car, > his time would be worth more than my car is. > How about that. The current idea is to open up a garage that converts old people's cars to electric or hybrid. I thankfully already found an investor for this one, but I'm still writing the business plan because there are so many parts I have to take care of - engines, batteries (know of any "molten-salt" or Lithium-Cobalt oxide battery makers?) and even the wires to connect the batteries between themselves. Make enough money, move on to making new, standalone electric vehicles. Then establish the other company, start buying rights to remanufacture the old chips I need. Already talked to an Intel representative in Romania, he said Intel doesn't license x86 chips to others. I told him we would specify in the agreement that we only want to re-create the CPUs and not become a competitor, in all the ways a lawyer team could find. He didn't have an answer for that. Asked if I could call him later on about this idea (he was an analyst managing/filtering projects to be funded by them, and I went to him with this proposal). He said sure. He added that AMD does license x86 products to others. Ah-hah. Great. So the licensing of the K6-III+ at 450 MHz will be easier (for a system with 8 of these) or the Athlon 64 x2 Black Edition at 3100 MHz (for a system with four of these) or the 386DX-40, or the Turion 64 ML-44. Also, this means I'll have to get all of Intel's CPUs in one shot, because he thinks that will cannibalize Intel's own market, which it might. I managed to find an old 16-bit Linux and an 8-bit OS (made for the Commodore 64 apparently) that resembles Linux. I have the bookmarks on another computer. A few tens of thousands (or hundreds of thousands or millions) of Euros later, they will all be made to run on multiple processors. Same for FreeDOS and ReactOS. > > What you need to do is to get started towards developing your own skills. > I think that a Weller TCPN is a good beginning soldering iron. You will > want a GOOD VOM, but a Chinese Harbor Freight one MIGHT be adequate > temporarily while you put the funds together. Then start shopping for a > used oscilloscope. > I didn't get a good soldering iron yet, but I will someday. Romanians use soldering "guns," called so because they actually look like hand pistols, made during the communist times. They're still made somewhere and still sold, complete with the body and handle made of ebonite (I'm not sure that's what you call it in English, it's that material looking like plastic but much more resistant to mechanic shock and high temperatures than plastic). Cheap, too - about 1.5$ if I recall correctly. Right. No, I'll tell you what I need. I need one of those big scanners who are able to give you a detailed print of ALL the connections inside a given PCB, including the discreet chips on the PCB for one of those 3D views of all the connections. I don't need to know how to solder, I need to know what to find and where to find it. I could then send that 3D view to my Aussie friend and he'd be able to decipher it and tell me what I need to know. He told me how to bridge sixteen 286 motherboards - via expanded memory controllers, because expanded memory works in blocks. Starting with the 386DX system, it would all be easier because you can build a PCI to PCI bridge. The Intel analyst also told me that redesigning an existing northbridge or CPU costs millions, so redesigning chipsets to accomodate more CPUs is not an option. But since he wasn't interested in the idea, I didn't tell him about PCI to PCI bridges or hardware EMS controllers for the 16-bit systems. > Doing it for free IS WORTH IT! I'm with you on that. But there's absolutely no time to become a world-class soldering man like the motherboard guy is (he replaced the original tip of his soldering gun with a bent nail and he can replace SMD chipsets with that). I have to do something to earn money, and the job diversity around here is probably exponentially bleaker than it is in the US. Wanna do game design? Up yours. Wanna do this? Ok, you're hired. You get 330$ monthly and you get the opportunity to spend 8 hours at the office, usually more! In this case, I really prefer doing something that puts my brain to work like converting cars to electric or hybrid. As far as I know, every year there are international Olympics in Math, Physics, Latin and whatnot. My associate made it to the national phase in highschool. Twice, if I'm not mistaking. I still had to explain twice or three times the concept of making a Diesel-electric car: the Diesel engine runs at all times, the battery capacity needs to be enough to feed the electric motor and that's basically it. No gearbox, except for the front-wheel drive cars, in which case we'll probably block it into the gear where the ratio is 1:1. So, I got used to people not understanding what I want to do or why. I didn't want to bore you with such a lengthy e-mail, so I wasn't too keen on explaining all this. > Just one more thing. > You have to promise to train your own apprentice, and to be patient with > him. The company re-making vintage computers would be established for an unlimited amount of time and it would produce Altairs with Z80 CPUs, 286, 386, Pentium Overdrives and Pentium II Overdrives, K6-III+, Pentium III-S, Pentium IV single cores (for the socket 478 and 775), Athlon 64 X2, Phenom X3, Core 2 Duo and Quad, Turion 64 ML-44 and Core 2 Duo and Quad for mobile computers, forever. Yeah, an apprentice is definitely necessary in this case. But thank you - I haven't really thought of that. Even such a tiny detail is important. Thank you for baring with me and reading all this. From legalize at xmission.com Sat Oct 10 19:58:57 2009 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sat, 10 Oct 2009 18:58:57 -0600 Subject: What's a "computer console" selectric called? In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 09 Oct 2009 15:17:15 -0400. Message-ID: There was also the 2741 terminal which used compatible selectric typeballs. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From lynchaj at yahoo.com Sat Oct 10 21:24:25 2009 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Sat, 10 Oct 2009 22:24:25 -0400 Subject: sector numbering on floppy and hard drives? Message-ID: Hi! Why does sector numbering start with physical Sector 1 on floppy and hard disks? Cylinders and Heads begin at 0 but sectors start at 1. What happened to Sector 0? I am referring to physical address not LBA. I am just wondering. Thanks and have a nice day! Andrew Lynch From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Oct 10 22:14:03 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 10 Oct 2009 20:14:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: sector numbering on floppy and hard drives? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20091010200925.H5976@shell.lmi.net> On Sat, 10 Oct 2009, Andrew Lynch wrote: > Hi! Why does sector numbering start with physical Sector 1 on floppy and > hard disks? > Cylinders and Heads begin at 0 but sectors start at 1. What happened to > Sector 0? > I am referring to physical address not LBA. > I am just wondering. Thanks and have a nice day! Track numbering goes bask to the designers of the disk controller. Sector numbering, on the other hand, is a creation of the systems programmers who design that particular disk format. SOME sector numberings start with 0. SOME sector numberings start with 1. SOME sector numberings start with 17 SOME sector numberings start with 129 The programmers who design the individual disk format do not have much control over track numbering, but can do anything that they want with sector numbers. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cclist at sydex.com Sat Oct 10 22:18:23 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 10 Oct 2009 20:18:23 -0700 Subject: sector numbering on floppy and hard drives? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4AD0EC0F.27604.264F1C3D@cclist.sydex.com> On 10 Oct 2009 at 22:24, Andrew Lynch wrote: > Hi! Why does sector numbering start with physical Sector 1 on floppy > and hard disks? > > Cylinders and Heads begin at 0 but sectors start at 1. What happened > to Sector 0? Convention, mostly. At least for soft-sectored media, the sector (and side and cylinder, really) can be anything the person who writes the low-level formatting software wants it to be. There are systems out there that use sector 0 as the first sector (HP 125, for example or several Kaypro formats). By the same token, there are systems that use 65, 128 or 192 as the first sector. I know of at least one system that used the sector ID to differentiate between single- and double-sided formats. There is at least one PC AT ST412 interface hard disk controller out there that uses a "hidden" 256-byte sector 0 to record the drive parameters. Cylinder, head and sector numbers need not even be consecutive, although that does make things easier when a controller capable of multi-sector transfers is used. --Chuck From keithvz at verizon.net Sat Oct 10 22:38:33 2009 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith) Date: Sat, 10 Oct 2009 23:38:33 -0400 Subject: sector numbering on floppy and hard drives? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4AD15339.8040207@verizon.net> Andrew Lynch wrote: > Hi! Why does sector numbering start with physical Sector 1 on floppy and > hard disks? > Cylinders and Heads begin at 0 but sectors start at 1. What happened to > Sector 0? Amiga floppies have sectors numbered 0-10. Keith From spectre at floodgap.com Sun Oct 11 00:09:41 2009 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sat, 10 Oct 2009 22:09:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: sector numbering on floppy and hard drives? In-Reply-To: <4AD15339.8040207@verizon.net> from Keith at "Oct 10, 9 11:38:33 pm" Message-ID: <200910110509.n9B59fa0008746@floodgap.com> > > Hi! Why does sector numbering start with physical Sector 1 on floppy and > > hard disks? > > Cylinders and Heads begin at 0 but sectors start at 1. What happened to > > Sector 0? > > Amiga floppies have sectors numbered 0-10. So do Commodore 5.25" floppies, although their tracks officially start at 1. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Xerox never comes up with anything original. ------------------------------- From billdeg at degnanco.com Sun Oct 11 16:17:22 2009 From: billdeg at degnanco.com (B Degnan) Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2009 17:17:22 -0400 Subject: ASR 33 not horizontally spacing Message-ID: <4AD24B62.9050706@degnanco.com> I knocked over my previously working teletype. After locating all of the pieces, I carefully re-installed as much I could. The whole thing came apart, little pieces everywhere. The typewriter became detached from the keyboard. Pretty bad. I almost got it working, but there is one thing that I cannot seem to fix. The problem is that the print head is not moving horizontally along the line, it just says in place and types each character on top of itself. I do know that the teletype is sending data correctly from the keyboard to the computer through the serial cable, and the computer is receiving the commands. Output from the computer to the teletype is received and the print head itself is printing the correct characters. The problem is that the print head is not being moved to the right/horizontally. I can manually move the print head while in a operation (I can send a punch command to the printout paper for example) and if I time it just right I can space out the printed characters manually so I can see what has been sent from the computer. Can anyone help identify the fix? I would be willing to travel to someone with experience who repairs these (w/i 250 miles of Wilmington, Delaware), we can talk offline about service fees/trades. I have a lot of spare teletype and other parts. Worst case I guess I will offer buy another stock ASR 33 if anyone has one and this one can't be fixed. Is there such thing as teletype repair in the Philadelphia - Washington DC area? Here are some pics, if they do any good. I can take more of targeted locations. http://vintagecomputer.net/teletype/asr33/2009/ Bill Degnan From RichA at vulcan.com Sun Oct 11 18:11:38 2009 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2009 16:11:38 -0700 Subject: What's a "computer console" selectric called? In-Reply-To: <4AD086A0.19417.24C2E0E0@cclist.sydex.com> References: , , <4AD07088.18622.246C9514@cclist.sydex.com> <4AD086A0.19417.24C2E0E0@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > From: Chuck Guzis > Sent: Saturday, October 10, 2009 1:06 PM > Something that has itched at the back of my mind for decades, related > to this topic: > What was used to produce many of the S/360 "programming" manuals? An > example is the DOS F-level assembler: > http://tinyurl.com/yhcd59n > These are clearly typewritten (not typeset) in a monospaced font. My > own copy dates from a couple of years earlier (than this 1968 copy) > but has a similar appearance. > Anyone know for certain? They were done using an IBM 1401-N1 with a TN print train, which provides upper- and lowercase Courier (or something very much like it) in an EBCDIC encoding. This was used to produce camera-ready copy which was offset printed in IBM's own print house (supposed at the time to be second in capacity to the US government's printing operations). Or at least that's what I was told by an IBM SE ~40 years ago. Rich From snhirsch at gmail.com Sat Oct 10 08:13:05 2009 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Sat, 10 Oct 2009 09:13:05 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Catweasel support for Intel M2FM working! In-Reply-To: <6dbe3c380910091934s719c5258g5336a925102c34ae@mail.gmail.com> References: <6dbe3c380910091934s719c5258g5336a925102c34ae@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 9 Oct 2009, Brian Lanning wrote: > Sorry to hijack the thread. But could you tell me if this linux catweasel > tool can read and write apple 2e and 2gs 5.25" and 3.5" floppies? Thanks. Since it simply reads flux transitions and captures the time interval that separates them, it is capable of reading anything recorded on a magnetic disk. That said, I believe only the Windows-based utility can actually decode the raw capture from A2 diskettes into a sector-by-sector image. The opensource Linux package can read Commodore GCR diskettes, so I assume adding A2 support would be doable. Steve -- From csquared3 at tx.rr.com Sat Oct 10 11:03:35 2009 From: csquared3 at tx.rr.com (CSquared) Date: Sat, 10 Oct 2009 11:03:35 -0500 Subject: What's a "computer console" selectric called? References: <29c49207ae5d8d401f47132615f258bf@localhost> Message-ID: <008e01ca49c3$395e9270$6400a8c0@acerd3c08b49af> ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Saturday, October 10, 2009 10:52 AM Subject: Re: What's a "computer console" selectric called? > > On Fri, 9 Oct 2009 15:17:15 -0400, "Ben Bornstein" <5flush at sympatico.ca> > wrote: > What I do know is that they are two different machines, and I think built > by seperate divisions in IBM at the time. Console Selectric/ I/O Selectric > would discribe it, I don't think there was a way to get *one* with out > buying > a IBM COMPUTER. > >> I DONT KNOW !! >> POPS Way back when (starting in 1964) we had them connected to SDS910 computers. I've also seen one connected to a rather weird 23-bit word length computer; in fact I think I still have a non-operational one from one of those systems in the back of my garage somewhere. I occasionally think about reviving it, but then better sense prevails. :) ISTR they were called I/O Selectrics but ICBW. Later, Charlie Carothers -- My email address is csquared3 at tx dot rr dot com From iamvirtual at gmail.com Sat Oct 10 12:12:55 2009 From: iamvirtual at gmail.com (B M) Date: Sat, 10 Oct 2009 11:12:55 -0600 Subject: UDA-50 on Vax11/750 Message-ID: <2645f9870910101012k41a60086n3d71cef0fb8f956d@mail.gmail.com> On my Vax-11/750, I currently have an UDA-50 adapter connected to a R80 drive. I would like to get a more modern smaller drive. What drives can be used with the UDA-50 *AND* are supported under VMS 4.7 or 5.0? Thanks! --barrym From csquared3 at tx.rr.com Sat Oct 10 22:45:46 2009 From: csquared3 at tx.rr.com (CSquared) Date: Sat, 10 Oct 2009 22:45:46 -0500 Subject: Fixing a 386SX laptop References: <4ACEE9A8.18754.1E75B89D@cclist.sydex.com><4ACF526D.4742.200EF87F@cclist.sydex.com> <20091010152933.R5976@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <000b01ca4a25$5182c350$6400a8c0@acerd3c08b49af> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fred Cisin" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Saturday, October 10, 2009 6:01 PM Subject: Re: Fixing a 386SX laptop > On Sat, 10 Oct 2009, Alexandru Lovin wrote: >> I'm hoping to get a hint answer from you: ok, you want all those >> over-the-top modifications. I think this man (or this company) can help >> you. > > The problem that you are going to run into, is that those WITH those > abilities have their OWN projects that keep them busy. You have to > respect that, and the fact that they are MUCH more interested in THEIR > projects than they are in YOUR projects. > > >> I apologize if I offended you, Sir. > > Mr. Guzis is not easily offended (as far as I can tell). But, he is an > exceptionally busy man. You should feel honored that he took time to > answer some of your questions. > > He has significant projects of his own. If I wanted to hire him to do > something for me, I doubt that I could afford it unless he were fascinated > with the idea. > > I know somebody who builds race-cars. (Sorry, Jay, but analogies are like > . . . ) He is currently building an electric car, because he is > interested in it. If I wanted him to replace the distributor on my car, > his time would be worth more than my car is. > > > What you need to do is to get started towards developing your own skills. > I think that a Weller TCPN is a good beginning soldering iron. You will > want a GOOD VOM, but a Chinese Harbor Freight one MIGHT be adequate > temporarily while you put the funds together. Then start shopping for a > used oscilloscope. > > Practice soldering and de-soldering. I improved my soldering skills by > buying a bare board of a motherboard, and soldering sockets onto it. > Open up that Chinese VOM, and resolder every bad solder joint in it. > When you reach the point where you can de-solder a part off of a board and > re-solder it, or a replacement on, then you will be ready to learn what to > do. > > Get a copy of "Art of Electronics", and schematic diagrams of everything > that you own. > > Go to the "motherboard-man" who is near you. Do small jobs for him, for > free, such as making cables, etc. Get him to tell you what he is doing on > his projects. Assist him. Doing it for free IS WORTH IT! Eventually, > when you have acquired some skills, work out an apprenticeship with him. > If you really help him, he will teach you everything that he knows. > Eventually, he will start paying you to do some work for him (and to keep > you from leaving to go work elsewhere). > > Soon you will be able to do your own projects. But, you will find that in > addition to your own projects, everybody around will want you to do > projects for them, and there just isn't enough time. > > > Just one more thing. > You have to promise to train your own apprentice, and to be patient with > him. > > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com Thanks Fred for saying that. I don't believe I've ever read anything more profound on this group. Sometimes I fear that those significantly younger than my 70 years don't understand that line of thought, and I believe the world is poorer as a result. In my youth a wise man once told me "If you never do more than you are paid for, you will never be paid for more than you do." I took that to heart, always remembered it, always tried to live by it, and have tried to pass it on to those who would listen. Later, Charlie Carothers From neozeed at gmail.com Sun Oct 11 09:18:28 2009 From: neozeed at gmail.com (Jason Stevens) Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2009 10:18:28 -0400 Subject: TS-11 Fortran & overlays... Message-ID: <46b366130910110718y54f0d9dbj2028c2683db96d4c@mail.gmail.com> Hi, I've been trying to build some of the old dungeon (zork) source files I've manage to find... I've bee using SIMH, and it's TS-11 v4 distro I found some Fortran stuff here: http://www.headcrashers.org/comp/rx01/ When I run SIMH, this is what I get for "show cpu" CPU, 11/73, NOCIS, idle disabled, autoconfiguration enabled, 256KB This is my ini file: set cpu 256k att rk0 rtv4_rk.dsk att rk1 dungeon1.dsk att rk2 dungeon2.dsk att rk3 asc.dsk I've figured out how to install the compiler from some PDF's and the test program will build. However when attempting to link dungeon I'm getting this error: ------8<------8<------8<------8< ?LINK-W-Undefined globals: CVTTIM GTIM $OVRH ------8<------8<------8<------8<------8< I cut out the references for CVTTIM & GTIM from the source, but the OVRH is not found... People tell me it's an overlay manager but I cannot find any mention of this thing anywhere as far as where to find it, build it link with it or anything..... I can provide more detail if needed but I'd really appreciate any pointers on this... TIA Jason. From brianlanning at gmail.com Sun Oct 11 20:15:19 2009 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2009 20:15:19 -0500 Subject: Catweasel support for Intel M2FM working! In-Reply-To: References: <6dbe3c380910091934s719c5258g5336a925102c34ae@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6dbe3c380910111815l6199547j38f052fdf578cd72@mail.gmail.com> On Sat, Oct 10, 2009 at 8:13 AM, Steven Hirsch wrote: > On Fri, 9 Oct 2009, Brian Lanning wrote: > > Sorry to hijack the thread. But could you tell me if this linux catweasel >> tool can read and write apple 2e and 2gs 5.25" and 3.5" floppies? Thanks. >> > > Since it simply reads flux transitions and captures the time interval that > separates them, it is capable of reading anything recorded on a magnetic > disk. That said, I believe only the Windows-based utility can actually > decode the raw capture from A2 diskettes into a sector-by-sector image. > > The opensource Linux package can read Commodore GCR diskettes, so I assume > adding A2 support would be doable. > I talked to Jens (catweasel creator) about it. The current windows software only supports reading apple 2e floppies at the moment. Someone else is handling the software for him, but not much seems to be happening there. He says that all of the floppy file formats just end up being a series of blocks one after another so that all you need to know is the block size and the number of sectors per track. If it's so easy, I'm not sure why they only implemented reading. :-/ I've considered writing something open source for windows/linux that could read and write anything simply by changing configurable parameters. Supporting a new format would just require knowing what the file format looks like and what the floppy layout it. Alas, woodworking is taking too much of my time these days. I may get around to it at some point. It would help greatly if I had existing source code that I could use as a starting point. I haven't really started to dig yet. brian From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Oct 11 20:42:06 2009 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2009 18:42:06 -0700 Subject: Catweasel support for Intel M2FM working! In-Reply-To: <6dbe3c380910111815l6199547j38f052fdf578cd72@mail.gmail.com> References: <6dbe3c380910091934s719c5258g5336a925102c34ae@mail.gmail.com> <6dbe3c380910111815l6199547j38f052fdf578cd72@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4AD2896E.6070001@bitsavers.org> Brian Lanning wrote: > He says that all of the floppy file formats just end up being a series of > blocks one after another so that all you need to know is the block size and > the number of sectors per track. I didn't know if I should laugh or cry when I read that sentence. It certainly explains why software support from the vendor for the board is so poor if he seriously believes that. From cclist at sydex.com Sun Oct 11 21:04:38 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2009 19:04:38 -0700 Subject: Catweasel support for Intel M2FM working! In-Reply-To: <4AD2896E.6070001@bitsavers.org> References: , <6dbe3c380910111815l6199547j38f052fdf578cd72@mail.gmail.com>, <4AD2896E.6070001@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4AD22C46.32292.22405C3@cclist.sydex.com> On 11 Oct 2009 at 18:42, Al Kossow wrote: > I didn't know if I should laugh or cry when I read that sentence. It > certainly explains why software support from the vendor for the board > is so poor if he seriously believes that. Amen. I submit that there is more variety in floppy formats than in almost any other digital magnetic medium. Cheers, Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Oct 11 21:13:43 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2009 19:13:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Catweasel support for Intel M2FM working! In-Reply-To: <4AD2896E.6070001@bitsavers.org> References: <6dbe3c380910091934s719c5258g5336a925102c34ae@mail.gmail.com> <6dbe3c380910111815l6199547j38f052fdf578cd72@mail.gmail.com> <4AD2896E.6070001@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <20091011191204.T39611@shell.lmi.net> > He says that all of the floppy file formats just end up being a series of > blocks one after another so that all you need to know is the block size and > the number of sectors per track. All files just end up being a series of words one after another so that all you need to know is the word-size in bits, and the length of the file. From cclist at sydex.com Sun Oct 11 22:22:37 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2009 20:22:37 -0700 Subject: Catweasel support for Intel M2FM working! In-Reply-To: <20091011191204.T39611@shell.lmi.net> References: , <4AD2896E.6070001@bitsavers.org>, <20091011191204.T39611@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4AD23E8D.20388.26B6B1B@cclist.sydex.com> On 11 Oct 2009 at 19:13, Fred Cisin wrote: > > He says that all of the floppy file formats just end up being a > > series of blocks one after another so that all you need to know is > > the block size and the number of sectors per track. > > All files just end up being a series of words one after another so > that all you need to know is the word-size in bits, and the length of > the file. Ever tried to decode a DECStation WPS I floppy? Two sectors are used to hold the low-order 8 bits of each word and then a third sector holds the high-order 4 bits of the words of the other two sectors, all packed together. 6 bit ASCII, too, with numerous escape codes. --Chuck From IanK at vulcan.com Sun Oct 11 22:59:25 2009 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2009 20:59:25 -0700 Subject: Odd list behavior! In-Reply-To: <6dbe3c380910101209g574d7023xefa21c654522696b@mail.gmail.com> References: <6dbe3c380910100655v72e597e4p2b6b526015c8fa6f@mail.gmail.com> <83633A28-8246-44AD-80F6-095BC39A52DB@gmail.com>, <6dbe3c380910101209g574d7023xefa21c654522696b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: I don't have trouble with seeing the items I post - that works fine. But more often than I like, I don't see the original post in series. Not sure why that is.... -- Ian ________________________________________ From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Brian Lanning [brianlanning at gmail.com] Sent: Saturday, October 10, 2009 12:09 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Odd list behavior! On Sat, Oct 10, 2009 at 9:38 AM, Joost van de Griek wrote: > I believe it's a GMail thing. > I noticed that also. Sometimes, it rolls up the emails so that I can't see them, even though I haven't read them yet. brian From snhirsch at gmail.com Sun Oct 11 19:52:05 2009 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2009 20:52:05 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Catweasel support for Intel M2FM working! In-Reply-To: <4AD0C34C.6050807@bitsavers.org> References: <4AD0C34C.6050807@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Sat, 10 Oct 2009, Al Kossow wrote: > Steven Hirsch wrote: >> I'm pleased to announce that the maintainer of Linux cwtool has implemented >> working support for reading and writing Intel M2FM "DD" diskettes as used >> with the Intellec development systems :-). >> > > Is he planning another release? The last one posted is .13 That's completely up to Karsten. I believe he's also working on some other enhancements and that may be gating things. I'd suggest dropping him e-mail if you want to get a pre-release copy. Steve -- From snhirsch at gmail.com Sun Oct 11 19:56:54 2009 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2009 20:56:54 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Catweasel support for Intel M2FM working! In-Reply-To: <4AD0D09C.2050102@philpem.me.uk> References: <4ACF00E7.2070306@philpem.me.uk> <4AD0D09C.2050102@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: On Sat, 10 Oct 2009, Philip Pemberton wrote: > Steven Hirsch wrote: >>> What do you mean by "cooked"? Raw M2FM data, decoded M2FM (sync words and >>> headers intact), or just sequential sectors of data? >> >> They are sequential sectors of data. > > So basically they are the M2FM equivalent of a WinImage "IMD" file. Nice. (As > long as you know the sector sizes beforehand...) I'm not familiar with WinImage. >>> Or curious folk (like me) who enjoy the challenge of picking apart disc >>> formats :) >> >> Indeed. It would be great to have a utility that can read/write files from >> images. > > Point me to a filesystem spec and some demo images and it might turn into my > next "little project".. :) I'll do some poking through the ISIS-II documentation and see if there's a filesystem spec. >> For extra credit, how about a FUSE module for Linux or >> MacOSX? > > That sounds like a lot more fun. A lot of work, but also a lot more fun (and > interesting). > > I'd love to do a FUSE mounter for BBC Micro (Acorn DFS and possibly ADFS) > disc images, but it's still on my "maybe later" list... :) I had a bit of exposure to the FUSE API while doing some bug-fixing on the CoCo FUSE module. It seems very straightforward. There's a baseline of functionality that must be present, and a few other things that are nice to have but not essential. Steve -- From vern4wright at yahoo.com Mon Oct 12 01:13:50 2009 From: vern4wright at yahoo.com (Vernon Wright) Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2009 23:13:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: What's a "computer console" selectric called? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <64493.93269.qm@web65510.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> --- On Sun, 10/11/09, Rich Alderson wrote: > From: Rich Alderson > Subject: RE: What's a "computer console" selectric called? > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Date: Sunday, October 11, 2009, 4:11 PM > > > From: Chuck Guzis > > Sent: Saturday, October 10, 2009 1:06 PM > > > Something that has itched at the back of my mind for > decades, related > > to this topic: > > > What was used to produce many of the S/360 > "programming" manuals?? An > > example is the DOS F-level assembler: > > > http://tinyurl.com/yhcd59n > > > These are clearly typewritten (not typeset) in a > monospaced font.? My > > own copy dates from a couple of years earlier (than > this 1968 copy) > > but has a similar appearance. > > > Anyone know for certain? > > They were done using an IBM 1401-N1 with a TN print train, > which provides > upper- and lowercase Courier (or something very much like > it) in an EBCDIC > encoding.? This was used to produce camera-ready copy > which was offset > printed in IBM's own print house (supposed at the time to > be second in > capacity to the US government's printing operations). > > Or at least that's what I was told by an IBM SE ~40 years > ago. > > Rich OK, that's a PLM, and they got less care than the customer ref manuals. The reference manuals were written and edited generally on a 2741 (or equivalent) terminal (i.e., a Selectric terminal), (though before that was available it would have been an electronic terminal such as an Executive, or in smaller operations the Mag-Card Selectric - which was semi-popular in some of the smaller programming environments). The file could have been printed camera-ready as you said on an N1 train printer with whatever train was desired. The next generation of manuals (S/370) looked a lot prettier, using a variable type face. IIRC (40 years takes its toll on memory, and grey hair leaches out brain cells), the standard was a non-serif, but I'd have to go find the H Assembler manual to be certain. (And I still can't find all my stuff.) Produced though initially on the Selectric terminal, then translated to whatever typeface became standard. Never saw the print shop, doubt it would have rivaled the GPO, but I can believe it was huge. Pity the quality of the content wasn't as high as the number of pages. Vern Wright From quapla at xs4all.nl Mon Oct 12 01:57:31 2009 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (Ed Groenenberg) Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2009 08:57:31 +0200 Subject: 6502 assembler for RSX? Message-ID: <268587be8bdd46ed74827fd11c3c5e14.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Hi, Has anybody heard of a 6502 assembler running under RSX-11M? And is there any documentation for it? Thanks, Ed -- Certified : VCP 3.x, SCSI 3.x SCSA S10, SCNA S10 From brianlanning at gmail.com Mon Oct 12 07:06:52 2009 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2009 07:06:52 -0500 Subject: Catweasel support for Intel M2FM working! In-Reply-To: <4AD2896E.6070001@bitsavers.org> References: <6dbe3c380910091934s719c5258g5336a925102c34ae@mail.gmail.com> <6dbe3c380910111815l6199547j38f052fdf578cd72@mail.gmail.com> <4AD2896E.6070001@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <6dbe3c380910120506t2fd86951t1ad3f7a361fc42c4@mail.gmail.com> On Sun, Oct 11, 2009 at 8:42 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > Brian Lanning wrote: > > He says that all of the floppy file formats just end up being a series of >> blocks one after another so that all you need to know is the block size >> and >> the number of sectors per track. >> > > I didn't know if I should laugh or cry when I read that sentence. It > certainly > explains why software support from the vendor for the board is so poor if > he > seriously believes that. > I think that might have been a statement more about the file formats than the floppy formats. But I don't know much about floppy formats anyway. He definitely seems more interested in the hardware though. It seems that other people are always doing the drivers and utilities for him. brian From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Oct 12 14:30:04 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2009 15:30:04 -0400 Subject: UDA-50 on Vax11/750 In-Reply-To: <2645f9870910101012k41a60086n3d71cef0fb8f956d@mail.gmail.com> References: <2645f9870910101012k41a60086n3d71cef0fb8f956d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Oct 10, 2009, at 1:12 PM, B M wrote: > On my Vax-11/750, I currently have an UDA-50 adapter connected to a > R80 drive. > I would like to get a more modern smaller drive. What drives can be > used with the UDA-50 > *AND* are supported under VMS 4.7 or 5.0? The MSCP driver in VMS does the right thing with drives of different numbers of block sizes, but I don't know if it did so that early or not. Controller-wise, you should be able to use an RA9x or even one of the 5.25" RA7x-series drives. -Dave > -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 12 14:53:51 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2009 20:53:51 +0100 (BST) Subject: ASR 33 not horizontally spacing In-Reply-To: <4AD24B62.9050706@degnanco.com> from "B Degnan" at Oct 11, 9 05:17:22 pm Message-ID: > > I knocked over my previously working teletype. I know you mention it in the Subject: line, but there are many models of Teletype (and even more teletypes, using the term generically). Please specify this is an ASR33. > > After locating all of the pieces, I carefully re-installed as much I How many little piexes? The 'typing unit' is not bolted down, so it's likely to come free, and there's the 'H plate' to link it to the keyboard. But did the sections come apart more than that? > could. The whole thing came apart, little pieces everywhere. The > typewriter became detached from the keyboard. Pretty bad. > > I almost got it working, but there is one thing that I cannot seem to fix. > > The problem is that the print head is not moving horizontally along the > line, it just says in place and types each character on top of itself. The carriage is moved bu the toothed belt at the front. At the left end of this is the drive sprocket, bolted to a ratchet wheel. There are some pawls (2, one for moving it, one to prvenet it running back?) that operate on this wheel. They're lifted off the wheel during a carriage return (so the spring can pull the carriage back to the left) and them drop back into engaagement on the next character (IIRC). I'd start buy checking this area. Maybe something is bent or out of place. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 12 14:59:05 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2009 20:59:05 +0100 (BST) Subject: Catweasel support for Intel M2FM working! In-Reply-To: <4AD23E8D.20388.26B6B1B@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Oct 11, 9 08:22:37 pm Message-ID: > > All files just end up being a series of words one after another so > > that all you need to know is the word-size in bits, and the length of > > the file. > > Ever tried to decode a DECStation WPS I floppy? Two sectors are used > to hold the low-order 8 bits of each word and then a third sector > holds the high-order 4 bits of the words of the other two sectors, > all packed together. 6 bit ASCII, too, with numerous escape codes. Or a PERQ filesystem floppy. On the PERQ's hard disk, filesystem pointers are stored in words in the sector _header_ (the controller is a custom-designed thing based round a 2910 sequencer, thr DMA controller is designed so as to be able to put the pointers in one area of memory and the sector data somehwere else). But of course you can't have custom words in the header using a standard FDC chip (IIRC the PERQ uses an 8272). So they have a couple of sectors per track of the 8" floppy just to hold the pointers for the remaining sectors on that track. -tony From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Mon Oct 12 18:29:56 2009 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2009 00:29:56 +0100 Subject: ASR 33 not horizontally spacing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4AD3BBF4.6060803@philpem.me.uk> Tony Duell wrote: > The carriage is moved bu the toothed belt at the front. At the left end > of this is the drive sprocket, bolted to a ratchet wheel. There are some > pawls (2, one for moving it, one to prvenet it running back?) that > operate on this wheel. They're lifted off the wheel during a carriage > return (so the spring can pull the carriage back to the left) and them > drop back into engaagement on the next character (IIRC). I'd start buy > checking this area. Maybe something is bent or out of place. Doesn't look like the pawls (or at least one of them) are engaging: http://vintagecomputer.net/teletype/asr33/2009/ASR33-1.jpg It's hard to tell, but it looks to me that either the pawl is too low to catch the ratchet gear, or it's standing proud of the gear. If the base metal (or the pawl) were a different colour, it might be easier to tell.. This image implies that it's just plain disengaged, though I can't tell for certain what angle it was taken at (whether it's showing the frontside 'ASR33-1' view, or the opposite side): http://vintagecomputer.net/teletype/asr33/2009/ASR33-8.jpg -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Oct 12 19:56:39 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2009 20:56:39 -0400 Subject: seeking Sanyo MBC-3000 keyboard Message-ID: <0EA9999E-BEBD-4300-9FED-311B4B1952D2@neurotica.com> I know this is a long shot, but does anyone here have a spare keyboard for a Sanyo MBC-3000 system? I have an opportunity to get one, but the keyboard is nowhere to be found. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From pontus at Update.UU.SE Tue Oct 13 02:41:48 2009 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2009 09:41:48 +0200 Subject: OS8 Source listing Message-ID: <20091013074148.GB14011@Update.UU.SE> Hi. I was browsing ebay and found these two auctions: http://cgi.ebay.com/PDP8-PDP-8-pdp8e-Source-Printout_W0QQitemZ290359238887 http://cgi.ebay.com/PDP8-PDP-8-pdp8e-TECO-Source-Printout_W0QQitemZ290359274421 I don't know if source listings where normally distributed or if this is a rare find, perhaps even something that should go to a museum. Is this source readily available? If not, I hope whoever buys it will scan it an preserve it, I'm considering doing it myself. Kind Regards, Pontus. From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Tue Oct 13 02:50:27 2009 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2009 08:50:27 +0100 Subject: OS8 Source listing In-Reply-To: <20091013074148.GB14011@Update.UU.SE> References: <20091013074148.GB14011@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: using the same pictures for both auctions! Dave Caroline From andyh at andyh-rayleigh.freeserve.co.uk Mon Oct 12 05:40:32 2009 From: andyh at andyh-rayleigh.freeserve.co.uk (Andy Holt) Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2009 11:40:32 +0100 Subject: 6502 assembler for RSX? In-Reply-To: <268587be8bdd46ed74827fd11c3c5e14.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> References: <268587be8bdd46ed74827fd11c3c5e14.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: >>>> Has anybody heard of a 6502 assembler running under RSX-11M? And is there any documentation for it? <<<< I don't know for certain, but most of those early micros had cross-assemblers written in Fortran - and by programmers who worked hard on making the Fortran machine independent. If this applied to the 6502 then it probably could run on RSX. I don't see such listed on http://www.npsnet.com/danf/cbm/cross-development.html however and that has a LOT of 65xx cross-assemblers Further searching gives hints that MOS Technology did indeed have such a Fortran-based cross-assembler, but no evidence that anyone still possesses a copy. Andy From jonas at otter.se Mon Oct 12 08:58:42 2009 From: jonas at otter.se (Jonas Otter) Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2009 13:58:42 +0000 Subject: 6502 assembler for RSX? Message-ID: On Mon, 12 Oct 2009 08:57:31 +0200, "Ed Groenenberg" wrote: > Hi, >| > Has anybody heard of a 6502 assembler running under RSX-11M? > And is there any documentation for it? > > Thanks, > > Ed When I was doing my thesis, I used an 8085 assembler under RSX-11M that somebody at the university had written by writing a bunch of macros for Macro-11, one macro for each 8085 mnemonic. We used the task builder as a linker, and then a utility, again written by some student, to convert the image to Intel Hex. I think the PROM burner was controlled by the PDP as well. I'm sure you could do the same for the 6502. /Jonas From chrise at pobox.com Mon Oct 12 06:41:55 2009 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2009 06:41:55 -0500 Subject: 6502 assembler for RSX? In-Reply-To: <268587be8bdd46ed74827fd11c3c5e14.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> References: <268587be8bdd46ed74827fd11c3c5e14.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <20091012114155.GB5170@n0jcf.net> On Monday (10/12/2009 at 08:57AM +0200), Ed Groenenberg wrote: > Hi, > > Has anybody heard of a 6502 assembler running under RSX-11M? > And is there any documentation for it? Maybe the BSO (Boston Systems Office) / Tasking cross-assemblers existed for RSX? I know they existed for TOPS-20 for sure and I'd love to find those again, particularly the 6800 one myself. Chris -- Chris Elmquist From snhirsch at gmail.com Mon Oct 12 06:50:39 2009 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2009 07:50:39 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Catweasel support for Intel M2FM working! In-Reply-To: <6dbe3c380910111815l6199547j38f052fdf578cd72@mail.gmail.com> References: <6dbe3c380910091934s719c5258g5336a925102c34ae@mail.gmail.com> <6dbe3c380910111815l6199547j38f052fdf578cd72@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 11 Oct 2009, Brian Lanning wrote: >> The opensource Linux package can read Commodore GCR diskettes, so I assume >> adding A2 support would be doable. >> > > It would help greatly if I had existing source code that I could use as > a starting point. I haven't really started to dig yet. Well, both cwtool and cw2dmk are opensource software. That provides a reasonable starting point to examine working code. -- From tingox at gmail.com Mon Oct 12 11:08:21 2009 From: tingox at gmail.com (Torfinn Ingolfsen) Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2009 18:08:21 +0200 Subject: TS-11 Fortran & overlays... In-Reply-To: <46b366130910110718y54f0d9dbj2028c2683db96d4c@mail.gmail.com> References: <46b366130910110718y54f0d9dbj2028c2683db96d4c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi, On Sun, Oct 11, 2009 at 4:18 PM, Jason Stevens wrote: > > I've figured out how to install the compiler from some PDF's and the test > program will build. However when attempting to link dungeon I'm getting > this error: > > ------8<------8<------8<------8< > ?LINK-W-Undefined globals: > CVTTIM > GTIM > $OVRH > ------8<------8<------8<------8<------8< > > I cut out the references for CVTTIM & GTIM from the source, but the OVRH is > not found... People tell me it's an overlay manager but I cannot find any > mention of this thing anywhere as far as where to find it, build it link > with it or anything..... > > I can provide more detail if needed but I'd really appreciate any pointers > on this... > > What libraries are you linking with ? >From the depths of my old memory I seem to remember that $funcname indicates that the function is eith a system function or from some library. Overlay? How was that 1bank and 2bank stuff again - I don't remember. Of course, I could be wrong. Haven't done anything with Fortran since the 1980'ies... The machine(s) I used Fortran on were ND-100's from Norsk Data. -- Regards, Torfinn Ingolfsen From brianlanning at gmail.com Tue Oct 13 06:49:04 2009 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2009 06:49:04 -0500 Subject: Catweasel support for Intel M2FM working! In-Reply-To: References: <6dbe3c380910091934s719c5258g5336a925102c34ae@mail.gmail.com> <6dbe3c380910111815l6199547j38f052fdf578cd72@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6dbe3c380910130449m24fbaa30g5c418a5a5ad9cde7@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, Oct 12, 2009 at 6:50 AM, Steven Hirsch wrote: > Well, both cwtool and cw2dmk are opensource software. That provides a > reasonable starting point to examine working code. > I haven't had a chance to look at it at all. I've been meaning to get to it for about a year now. Too many projects. :-/ Thanks for the suggestion. brian From hachti at hachti.de Tue Oct 13 08:39:39 2009 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2009 15:39:39 +0200 Subject: DECTapes on eBay - MADNESS??!? Message-ID: <4AD4831B.5000001@hachti.de> Hey, I watched the following auction, just for curiosity: http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=290357667738 Now it has ended. The 12 tapes went for $430!!! None of those has an original DEC label. Is there anything extremely important on them? Or are DECTape reels rare, uncommon and valuable? Any ideas? Regards, Philipp -- http://www.hachti.de From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Oct 13 09:26:42 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2009 10:26:42 -0400 Subject: DECTapes on eBay - MADNESS??!? In-Reply-To: <4AD4831B.5000001@hachti.de> References: <4AD4831B.5000001@hachti.de> Message-ID: On Oct 13, 2009, at 9:39 AM, Philipp Hachtmann wrote: > I watched the following auction, just for curiosity: > http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=290357667738 > > Now it has ended. The 12 tapes went for $430!!! > None of those has an original DEC label. Is there anything > extremely important on them? > > Or are DECTape reels rare, uncommon and valuable? > > > Any ideas? "Madness"? No, more like "DECtapes are impossible to find, and since people need them for their classic machines, they're willing to pay real money for them". -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From jdr_use at bluewin.ch Tue Oct 13 10:44:10 2009 From: jdr_use at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen) Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2009 17:44:10 +0200 Subject: DECTapes on eBay - MADNESS??!? In-Reply-To: <4AD4831B.5000001@hachti.de> References: <4AD4831B.5000001@hachti.de> Message-ID: <4AD4A04A.8090708@bluewin.ch> Philipp Hachtmann wrote: > Hey, > > I watched the following auction, just for curiosity: > http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=290357667738 > > Now it has ended. The 12 tapes went for $430!!! Rats... I have thus given away around 5000 USD in the last couple of years.... Just a few yeasr ago they were in a parts bin at the local electronis shop/junkyard.. 2 CHF ( 2 USD) each.. Guess I will have to be more carefull . Jos From roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk Tue Oct 13 11:08:12 2009 From: roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk (Roger Holmes) Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2009 17:08:12 +0100 Subject: ASR 33 not horizontally spacing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Just a suggestion but I had a KSR33 which did much the same. There was a piece of thin flat (spring?) steel on the carriage which got broken. On doing a carriage return, the ratchet mechanism which normally moves the head to the right gets dis-engaged. When the carriage gets back to the left, the piece of steel pushes against an arm which re-engaged the ratchet, only on mine it wasn't. On 12 Oct 2009, at 18:00, cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > Message: 1 > Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2009 17:17:22 -0400 > From: B Degnan > Subject: ASR 33 not horizontally spacing > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > Message-ID: <4AD24B62.9050706 at degnanco.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > I knocked over my previously working teletype. > > After locating all of the pieces, I carefully re-installed as much I > could. The whole thing came apart, little pieces everywhere. The > typewriter became detached from the keyboard. Pretty bad. > > I almost got it working, but there is one thing that I cannot seem > to fix. > > The problem is that the print head is not moving horizontally along > the > line, it just says in place and types each character on top of itself. > > I do know that the teletype is sending data correctly from the > keyboard > to the computer through the serial cable, and the computer is > receiving > the commands. Output from the computer to the teletype is received and > the print head itself is printing the correct characters. The > problem is > that the print head is not being moved to the right/horizontally. I > can > manually move the print head while in a operation (I can send a punch > command to the printout paper for example) and if I time it just > right I > can space out the printed characters manually so I can see what has > been > sent from the computer. > > Can anyone help identify the fix? > > I would be willing to travel to someone with experience who repairs > these (w/i 250 miles of Wilmington, Delaware), we can talk offline > about > service fees/trades. I have a lot of spare teletype and other parts. > Worst case I guess I will offer buy another stock ASR 33 if anyone has > one and this one can't be fixed. Is there such thing as teletype > repair > in the Philadelphia - Washington DC area? > > Here are some pics, if they do any good. I can take more of targeted > locations. > http://vintagecomputer.net/teletype/asr33/2009/ > > Bill Degnan > > From tshoppa at wmata.com Tue Oct 13 12:20:48 2009 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim) Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2009 13:20:48 -0400 Subject: Catweasel support for Intel M2FM working! Message-ID: Al writes: > Brian Lanning wrote: >> He says that all of the floppy file formats just end up being a series of >> blocks one after another so that all you need to know is the block size and >> the number of sectors per track. >I didn't know if I should laugh or cry when I read that sentence. It certainly >explains why software support from the vendor for the board is so poor if he >seriously believes that. Everybody has to draw boundaries over what they're gonna try to do, and what they not try to do. I think it is reasonable for the Catweasel people to say they only log transitions on the floppy and that they don't try to do anything else. Other people can pick up where their expertise comes in. Details of file formats of every obsolete 12-bit OS is not something I would trust the Catweasel people to do in fact. I know of floppy disk formats that in fact are not in fact fixed sector size, they are more like a cassette tape filesystem where sectors vary in length as necessary. Remember Al, that's why we go for image files as the actual archive with everything else just an interpretation or display. As Tom Lehrer wrote: "once the rockets are up who cares where they come down that's not my department, says Wernher von Braun" Tim. From billdeg at degnanco.com Tue Oct 13 12:37:40 2009 From: billdeg at degnanco.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2009 13:37:40 -0400 Subject: ASR 33 not horizontally spacing Message-ID: <428d01cc$2a828845$2130e28$@com> > > I know you mention it in the Subject: line, but there are many models of > Teletype (and even more teletypes, using the term generically). Please > specify this is an ASR33. > I have more or less fixed my Teletype Model ASR33. The pieces are out of alignment, but overall it's minimally functional. Bill From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Oct 13 12:49:34 2009 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2009 10:49:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: DECTapes on eBay - MADNESS??!? In-Reply-To: <4AD4A04A.8090708@bluewin.ch> References: <4AD4831B.5000001@hachti.de> <4AD4A04A.8090708@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: On Tue, 13 Oct 2009, Jos Dreesen wrote: > Philipp Hachtmann wrote: >> Hey, >> >> I watched the following auction, just for curiosity: >> http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=290357667738 >> >> Now it has ended. The 12 tapes went for $430!!! > > Rats... I have thus given away around 5000 USD in the last couple of > years.... > Just a few yeasr ago they were in a parts bin at the local electronis > shop/junkyard.. 2 CHF ( 2 USD) each.. > > Guess I will have to be more carefull . It makes me wonder if I shouldn't consider letting go of certain items to fund other purchases. I wonder where my box of DECtapes is, it's not like I'm ever going to use them. Zane From teoz at neo.rr.com Tue Oct 13 13:10:00 2009 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2009 14:10:00 -0400 Subject: DECTapes on eBay - MADNESS??!? References: <4AD4831B.5000001@hachti.de> <4AD4A04A.8090708@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: <9A50725F93CD42F1B6B893DC4DF8AB2A@dell8300> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Zane H. Healy" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 2009 1:49 PM Subject: Re: DECTapes on eBay - MADNESS??!? > > > On Tue, 13 Oct 2009, Jos Dreesen wrote: > > > It makes me wonder if I shouldn't consider letting go of certain items to > fund other purchases. I wonder where my box of DECtapes is, it's not like > I'm ever going to use them. > > Zane > Like anything else, you will need those tapes a week after you sell them. From glen.slick at gmail.com Tue Oct 13 13:17:21 2009 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2009 11:17:21 -0700 Subject: HP-CHM agreement In-Reply-To: <4796B290.30106@bitsavers.org> References: <4796B17B.2030803@bitsavers.org> <4796B290.30106@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <1e1fc3e90910131117y1d8d9888xf343b23ede6e2d94@mail.gmail.com> Are there any RTE-A binaries available for hobby use? I just acquired an apparently functional HP-1000 / A900 but have no software to try running on it. I can connect to the 12040 MUX interface as the VCP console, but none of the 12040 manuals I have found contain programming information on the 12040 so even trying to get HP-IPL/OS running would be a challenge. The manuals have programming information for the 12005 serial interface, but I don't have one of those in this system. -Glen On Tue, Jan 22, 2008 at 8:20 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > Al Kossow wrote: >> >> I annouced a few months ago that the agreement had been signed. >> >> I'm attaching a pdf. If the attachement gets eaten, i'll put it >> on bitsavers under http://bitsavers.org/bits/HP/ >> > > Looks like the message was eaten. > The pdf is on bitsavers for you to take a look at. > > CHM hasn't issued a press release about it since we're still doing things > like trying to convert the interleaf formatted manuals to pdfs and are > organizing > what we have. > > What HP actually donated was materal from about the last 10 years of the > product's > life (RTE-A, mostly). The earlier code is coming from other holdings. From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Tue Oct 13 14:28:33 2009 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2009 21:28:33 +0200 Subject: HP-CHM agreement In-Reply-To: <1e1fc3e90910131117y1d8d9888xf343b23ede6e2d94@mail.gmail.com> References: <4796B17B.2030803@bitsavers.org> <4796B290.30106@bitsavers.org> <1e1fc3e90910131117y1d8d9888xf343b23ede6e2d94@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Glen, Do you have a disc with RTE on it ? Or do you have 'nothing' ? I've a HP 1000 600A+ with RTE-A VC+ on it . The manuals you can download from the Hpmuseum website www.hpmuseum.net You need minimal one HP-IB disc to get it running. To install RTE-A you need a tape unit like a 9144A or 9145A or a floppy drive like a HP9121/22. It is possible to create binary images from the tapes or disc's using a DOS-PC with HP-IB card installed and a program called LIFDIAG.EXE Some time ago I wrote a paper how to crack the passwords of a RTE-A installation. At the moment I'm busy with the house, but within a few weeks I should be able to dig up my RTE-A tapes. The boot string for a HP-IB drive is : %BDC27BSYSXX XX=is the number of the system file. You could try just : %BDC27 but then it uses the first available boot file. -Rik > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Namens Glen Slick > Verzonden: dinsdag 13 oktober 2009 20:17 > Aan: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Onderwerp: Re: HP-CHM agreement > > Are there any RTE-A binaries available for hobby use? I just > acquired an apparently functional HP-1000 / A900 but have no > software to try running on it. > > I can connect to the 12040 MUX interface as the VCP console, > but none of the 12040 manuals I have found contain > programming information on the 12040 so even trying to get > HP-IPL/OS running would be a challenge. The manuals have > programming information for the 12005 serial interface, but I > don't have one of those in this system. > > -Glen > > > On Tue, Jan 22, 2008 at 8:20 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > > Al Kossow wrote: > >> > >> I annouced a few months ago that the agreement had been signed. > >> > >> I'm attaching a pdf. If the attachement gets eaten, i'll put it on > >> bitsavers under http://bitsavers.org/bits/HP/ > >> > > > > Looks like the message was eaten. > > The pdf is on bitsavers for you to take a look at. > > > > CHM hasn't issued a press release about it since we're still doing > > things like trying to convert the interleaf formatted > manuals to pdfs > > and are organizing what we have. > > > > What HP actually donated was materal from about the last 10 > years of > > the product's life (RTE-A, mostly). The earlier code is coming from > > other holdings. > From glen.slick at gmail.com Tue Oct 13 15:23:35 2009 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2009 13:23:35 -0700 Subject: HP-CHM agreement In-Reply-To: References: <4796B17B.2030803@bitsavers.org> <4796B290.30106@bitsavers.org> <1e1fc3e90910131117y1d8d9888xf343b23ede6e2d94@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1e1fc3e90910131323i69dc8044k9526991a88673954@mail.gmail.com> Rik, The A900 system has a couple of 12009A HPIB interfaces. The system didn't come with any drives but I have have a few HPIB drives and floppies I could connect to it. I currently don't have any HPIB tape drives. Do you have original installation tapes, or backup tapes created from an already installed OS? I did find your paper on cracking into RTE-A if you don't have the password and downloaded several of the manuals from www.hpmuseum.net already. -Glen On Tue, Oct 13, 2009 at 12:28 PM, Rik Bos wrote: > Glen, > > Do you have a disc with RTE on it ? > Or do you have 'nothing' ? > I've a HP 1000 600A+ with RTE-A VC+ on it . > The manuals you can download from the Hpmuseum website www.hpmuseum.net > You need minimal one HP-IB disc to get it running. > To install RTE-A you need a tape unit like a 9144A or 9145A or a floppy > drive like a HP9121/22. > It is possible to create binary images from the tapes or disc's using a > DOS-PC with HP-IB card installed and a program called LIFDIAG.EXE > Some time ago I wrote a paper how to crack the passwords of a RTE-A > installation. > At the moment I'm busy with the house, but within a few weeks I should be > able to dig up my RTE-A tapes. > > > The boot string for a HP-IB drive is : %BDC27BSYSXX ?XX=is the number of the > system file. > You could try just : %BDC27 but then it uses the first available boot file. > > -Rik From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Tue Oct 13 15:37:22 2009 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2009 22:37:22 +0200 Subject: HP-CHM agreement In-Reply-To: <1e1fc3e90910131323i69dc8044k9526991a88673954@mail.gmail.com> References: <4796B17B.2030803@bitsavers.org> <4796B290.30106@bitsavers.org><1e1fc3e90910131117y1d8d9888xf343b23ede6e2d94@mail.gmail.com> <1e1fc3e90910131323i69dc8044k9526991a88673954@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Glen, I've both..I think I need to check exactly witch ones . -Rik > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Namens Glen Slick > Verzonden: dinsdag 13 oktober 2009 22:24 > Aan: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Onderwerp: Re: HP-CHM agreement > > Rik, > > The A900 system has a couple of 12009A HPIB interfaces. The > system didn't come with any drives but I have have a few HPIB > drives and floppies I could connect to it. I currently don't > have any HPIB tape drives. > > Do you have original installation tapes, or backup tapes > created from an already installed OS? > > I did find your paper on cracking into RTE-A if you don't > have the password and downloaded several of the manuals from > www.hpmuseum.net already. > > -Glen > > On Tue, Oct 13, 2009 at 12:28 PM, Rik Bos wrote: > > Glen, > > > > Do you have a disc with RTE on it ? > > Or do you have 'nothing' ? > > I've a HP 1000 600A+ with RTE-A VC+ on it . > > The manuals you can download from the Hpmuseum website > > www.hpmuseum.net You need minimal one HP-IB disc to get it running. > > To install RTE-A you need a tape unit like a 9144A or 9145A or a > > floppy drive like a HP9121/22. > > It is possible to create binary images from the tapes or > disc's using > > a DOS-PC with HP-IB card installed and a program called LIFDIAG.EXE > > Some time ago I wrote a paper how to crack the passwords of a RTE-A > > installation. > > At the moment I'm busy with the house, but within a few > weeks I should > > be able to dig up my RTE-A tapes. > > > > > > The boot string for a HP-IB drive is : %BDC27BSYSXX ?XX=is > the number > > of the system file. > > You could try just : %BDC27 but then it uses the first > available boot file. > > > > -Rik > > > From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Oct 13 16:17:08 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2009 17:17:08 -0400 Subject: Any experience with or recommendations on restoring rusted galvanized steel? Message-ID: Hi, All, Some of the equipment I have has been through the wringer before it got to me so I have a couple of items of unpainted, galvanized steel where the galvanization is gone in patches larger than your hand and the steel underneath has oxidized to black (not so bad) or red (not so good). At the moment, I'm dealing with a single-board-computer "base" and a semi-custom rack shelf that both need some help. I know I can treat red iron oxide (rust) with naval jelly, but then I still have bare steel with no galvanization. I'm not expecting to get a cosmetically perfect item, but is there a good way to restore/protect things like this, or should I just expect to paint the entire item (it would look strange to just paint the formerly-galvanized area). Obviously, descaling, sanding and painting is one way to deal with this. I'm looking for possible alternatives. Thanks for any suggestions or pointers, -ethan From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Tue Oct 13 16:26:58 2009 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2009 22:26:58 +0100 Subject: Any experience with or recommendations on restoring rusted galvanized steel? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: in clocks and some museum work a wax can be applied, takes the shine off slightly so may look ok or maybe re galvanise it. will have to be pretty clean for re galvanising though, platers probably will go though a strip bath to chemically clean it. Dave Caroline From rollerton at gmail.com Tue Oct 13 16:30:36 2009 From: rollerton at gmail.com (Robert Ollerton) Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2009 16:30:36 -0500 Subject: Any experience with or recommendations on restoring rusted galvanized steel? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2789adda0910131430y1af60f9dk325d66382d8f4958@mail.gmail.com> On steel used in electronics, its probably got a conversion coating treatment (anodized, etc). I would use a "buffered" phosphoric acid metal prep solution to dissolve and convert the rust and it will leave a phosphate surface conversion that will inhibit rust and give tooth for any future paint coating. Sold in paint stores, auto paint, and even "large" building stores. A gallon is like $15 us. You can dip parts or for larger ares, lay some wet paper towels on the area to be treated. I use a spray bottle to mist areas to be treated. Keep an eye on it so it does not eat more than the rust, wipe it off before it dries, hard on your hands, and will eat lots of neat looking holes in your pants. Also found in Coca Cola. take your time and practice on something not too important. Navel Jelly I suspect is some kind of Tanic acid/phosporic acid gel. On Tue, Oct 13, 2009 at 4:17 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > Hi, All, > > Some of the equipment I have has been through the wringer before it > got to me so I have a couple of items of unpainted, galvanized steel > where the galvanization is gone in patches larger than your hand and > the steel underneath has oxidized to black (not so bad) or red (not so > good). ?At the moment, I'm dealing with a single-board-computer "base" > and a semi-custom rack shelf that both need some help. ?I know I can > treat red iron oxide (rust) with naval jelly, but then I still have > bare steel with no galvanization. ?I'm not expecting to get a > cosmetically perfect item, but is there a good way to restore/protect > things like this, or should I just expect to paint the entire item (it > would look strange to just paint the formerly-galvanized area). > > Obviously, descaling, sanding and painting is one way to deal with > this. ?I'm looking for possible alternatives. > > Thanks for any suggestions or pointers, > > -ethan > From hachti at hachti.de Tue Oct 13 16:44:42 2009 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2009 23:44:42 +0200 Subject: DECTapes on eBay - MADNESS??!? In-Reply-To: References: <4AD4831B.5000001@hachti.de> Message-ID: <4AD4F4CA.5070007@hachti.de> > "Madness"? No, more like "DECtapes are impossible to find, and since > people need them for their classic machines, they're willing to pay real > money for them". Need some? Could trade. -- http://www.hachti.de From hachti at hachti.de Tue Oct 13 16:46:54 2009 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2009 23:46:54 +0200 Subject: DECTapes on eBay - MADNESS??!? In-Reply-To: <9A50725F93CD42F1B6B893DC4DF8AB2A@dell8300> References: <4AD4831B.5000001@hachti.de> <4AD4A04A.8090708@bluewin.ch> <9A50725F93CD42F1B6B893DC4DF8AB2A@dell8300> Message-ID: <4AD4F54E.8010100@hachti.de> > Like anything else, you will need those tapes a week after you sell them. "A box" means currently more than the subjective quantity "needed" :-) I prefer trading over exchanging cash... -- http://www.hachti.de From cclist at sydex.com Tue Oct 13 17:03:32 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2009 15:03:32 -0700 Subject: Any experience with or recommendations on restoring rusted galvanized steel? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4AD496C4.27566.66063B9@cclist.sydex.com> On 13 Oct 2009 at 17:17, Ethan Dicks wrote: > Obviously, descaling, sanding and painting is one way to deal with > this. I'm looking for possible alternatives. You're on the right track. Krylon has a good zinc-rich galvanize- appearance paint: http://www.caswellplating.com/vht/galvanizpaint.html You can also electroplate zinc: http://www.caswellplating.com/kits/zinc.htm Electroless nickel is another option (see the site above) and may be more durable than zinc and easier to apply. In my misspent youth, I worked as a tech in a steel mill and the continous galvanize line (as well as the tinplate lines) were on my route. Lots of very nasty hot chemicals (e.g. chromic acid); the galvanize line used a hydrogen atmosphere... --Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Oct 13 17:49:14 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2009 18:49:14 -0400 Subject: DECTapes on eBay - MADNESS??!? In-Reply-To: <4AD4F4CA.5070007@hachti.de> References: <4AD4831B.5000001@hachti.de> <4AD4F4CA.5070007@hachti.de> Message-ID: On Oct 13, 2009, at 5:44 PM, Philipp Hachtmann wrote: >> "Madness"? No, more like "DECtapes are impossible to find, and >> since people need them for their classic machines, they're willing >> to pay real money for them". > Need some? Could trade. Nope...I myself have lots of them. Not many people do, though. -Dave > -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From steve at radiorobots.com Tue Oct 13 17:49:13 2009 From: steve at radiorobots.com (steve stutman) Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2009 18:49:13 -0400 Subject: Any experience with or recommendations on restoring rusted galvanized steel? In-Reply-To: <4AD496C4.27566.66063B9@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4AD496C4.27566.66063B9@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4AD503E9.2050303@radiorobots.com> Similar: http://alvinproducts.com/Products/Products.asp?id=4 Works quite well. Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 13 Oct 2009 at 17:17, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > >> Obviously, descaling, sanding and painting is one way to deal with >> this. I'm looking for possible alternatives. >> > > You're on the right track. Krylon has a good zinc-rich galvanize- > appearance paint: > > http://www.caswellplating.com/vht/galvanizpaint.html > > You can also electroplate zinc: > > http://www.caswellplating.com/kits/zinc.htm > > Electroless nickel is another option (see the site above) and may be > more durable than zinc and easier to apply. > > In my misspent youth, I worked as a tech in a steel mill and the > continous galvanize line (as well as the tinplate lines) were on my > route. Lots of very nasty hot chemicals (e.g. chromic acid); the > galvanize line used a hydrogen atmosphere... > > --Chuck > > > > From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Oct 13 18:01:34 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2009 19:01:34 -0400 Subject: DECTapes on eBay - MADNESS??!? In-Reply-To: References: <4AD4831B.5000001@hachti.de> <4AD4F4CA.5070007@hachti.de> Message-ID: On Oct 13, 2009, at 6:49 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: >>> "Madness"? No, more like "DECtapes are impossible to find, and >>> since people need them for their classic machines, they're >>> willing to pay real money for them". >> Need some? Could trade. > > Nope...I myself have lots of them. Not many people do, though. [replying to my own post, yeah I know] Good heavens where are my manners. Thank you for the offer, Philipp. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Oct 13 18:35:16 2009 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2009 16:35:16 -0700 Subject: DECTapes on eBay - MADNESS??!? In-Reply-To: <4AD4F4CA.5070007@hachti.de> References: <4AD4831B.5000001@hachti.de> <4AD4F4CA.5070007@hachti.de> Message-ID: <4AD50EB4.3050603@bitsavers.org> Philipp Hachtmann wrote: > Need some? Could trade. > Do you know what system they were from? Are there any old PDP-10 system tapes, in particular. From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Oct 13 18:40:52 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2009 19:40:52 -0400 Subject: DECTapes on eBay - MADNESS??!? In-Reply-To: <4AD50EB4.3050603@bitsavers.org> References: <4AD4831B.5000001@hachti.de> <4AD4F4CA.5070007@hachti.de> <4AD50EB4.3050603@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Oct 13, 2009, at 7:35 PM, Al Kossow wrote: >> Need some? Could trade. > > Do you know what system they were from? Are there any old PDP-10 > system tapes, > in particular. Are you looking for something in particular? I'm pretty sure that I have quite a few DECtapes that were used on PDP-10 systems. -Dave > -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Oct 13 21:07:41 2009 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2009 19:07:41 -0700 Subject: DECTapes on eBay - MADNESS??!? In-Reply-To: References: <4AD4831B.5000001@hachti.de> <4AD4F4CA.5070007@hachti.de> <4AD50EB4.3050603@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4AD5326D.4060000@bitsavers.org> Dave McGuire wrote: > On Oct 13, 2009, at 7:35 PM, Al Kossow wrote: >>> Need some? Could trade. >> >> Do you know what system they were from? Are there any old PDP-10 >> system tapes, >> in particular. > > Are you looking for something in particular? old versions of TOPS-10 and TENEX From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Oct 13 21:58:30 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2009 22:58:30 -0400 Subject: DECTapes on eBay - MADNESS??!? In-Reply-To: <4AD5326D.4060000@bitsavers.org> References: <4AD4831B.5000001@hachti.de> <4AD4F4CA.5070007@hachti.de> <4AD50EB4.3050603@bitsavers.org> <4AD5326D.4060000@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Oct 13, 2009, at 10:07 PM, Al Kossow wrote: >>>> Need some? Could trade. >>> >>> Do you know what system they were from? Are there any old PDP-10 >>> system tapes, >>> in particular. >> Are you looking for something in particular? > > old versions of TOPS-10 and TENEX I doubt I have those, but I will look through the tapes. I just got another big pile of them earlier this year which I've not yet gone through; I'll do that and let you know what I have. I'm preparing for a road trip so it may have to wait until my return in about 2.5 weeks. -Dave > -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Oct 13 23:51:15 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2009 00:51:15 -0400 Subject: road trip, truck space available Message-ID: Folks, Starting this coming Sunday (10/18), I'm planning to embark on a road trip in a truck from SW Florida to Poughkeepsie, NY, then to Boston, then back through the Columbus, OH area. I will have LOTS of extra room (at least half of a 28' truck) on all legs of this trip. The truck has a hydraulic lift gate and I have experience moving big, heavy computer equipment. I can be bribed to move big stuff along this route, should that be of use to anyone. I'm looking to defray the cost of the trip for my employer, but if it doesn't cost any extra money (i.e., not too far out of the way and not too time-consuming) I can be bribed with Cool Stuff too. Also, if anyone along that route has any spare DEC H960 racks or RA60 drives (preferably functional) that they want to unload, I'd happily take them away. :) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From pat at computer-refuge.org Wed Oct 14 10:32:35 2009 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2009 11:32:35 -0400 Subject: SCIPP 1600 info? In-Reply-To: <4ACC7BEA.20938.14F8E0CC@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200910071406.08704.pat@computer-refuge.org> <4ACC7BEA.20938.14F8E0CC@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <200910141132.35224.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Wednesday 07 October 2009, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 7 Oct 2009 at 14:06, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > > Does anyone know anything about a Tullamore/Victoreen SCIPP 1600? > > I have found one of these, and it appears to be some sort of > > computer- based "analyzer" from the 70s, but I can't find much > > using google, besides references in papers to having used one. > > I know Victoreen mostly for their geiger counters, so I suspect that > this is something having to do with the nuclear biz. The obit of the > founder: > > http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1P2-4094525.html > > Seems to support the radiation angle. It appears to be some sort of A/D converter, with a core memory box and "oscilloscope" like display stuck on it. I haven't gotten as far as firing it up yet, but I posted some higher res pictures of it: http://www.flickr.com/photos/vax-o-matic/sets/72157622536984302/ Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From pontus at update.uu.se Wed Oct 14 11:55:20 2009 From: pontus at update.uu.se (Pontus) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2009 18:55:20 +0200 Subject: OS8 Source listing In-Reply-To: <20091013074148.GB14011@Update.UU.SE> References: <20091013074148.GB14011@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <4AD60278.5030901@update.uu.se> Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > Hi. > > I was browsing ebay and found these two auctions: > > http://cgi.ebay.com/PDP8-PDP-8-pdp8e-Source-Printout_W0QQitemZ290359238887 > > http://cgi.ebay.com/PDP8-PDP-8-pdp8e-TECO-Source-Printout_W0QQitemZ290359274421 > > I don't know if source listings where normally distributed or if this is > a rare find, perhaps even something that should go to a museum. Is this > source readily available? > > If not, I hope whoever buys it will scan it an preserve it, I'm > considering doing it myself. > > Kind Regards, > Pontus. > No replies? surely someone must know if this unique or available to anyone with a set of OS/8 tapes? Kind Regards, Pontus. From RichA at vulcan.com Wed Oct 14 12:05:34 2009 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2009 10:05:34 -0700 Subject: OS8 Source listing In-Reply-To: <4AD60278.5030901@update.uu.se> References: <20091013074148.GB14011@Update.UU.SE> <4AD60278.5030901@update.uu.se> Message-ID: > From: Pontus > Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2009 9:55 AM > Pontus Pihlgren wrote: >> I was browsing ebay and found these two auctions: >> http://cgi.ebay.com/PDP8-PDP-8-pdp8e-Source-Printout_W0QQitemZ290359238887 >> http://cgi.ebay.com/PDP8-PDP-8-pdp8e-TECO-Source-Printout_W0QQitemZ290359274421 >> I don't know if source listings where normally distributed or if this is >> a rare find, perhaps even something that should go to a museum. Is this >> source readily available? >> If not, I hope whoever buys it will scan it an preserve it, I'm >> considering doing it myself. > No replies? surely someone must know if this unique or available to > anyone with a set of OS/8 tapes? > Kind Regards, > Pontus. I took at look at this. It appears to be a localized version of the OS, along with some other utilities. I would bid on it, but I don't want to get into a bidding war (cf. the thread on DECtape madness). Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Server Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at livingcomputermuseum.org http://www.pdpplanet.org/ http://www.livingcomputermuseum.org/ From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Wed Oct 14 12:12:09 2009 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2009 10:12:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OS8 Source listing In-Reply-To: References: <20091013074148.GB14011@Update.UU.SE> <4AD60278.5030901@update.uu.se> Message-ID: On Wed, 14 Oct 2009, Rich Alderson wrote: [re ebay items 290359238887 and 290359274421] > I took at look at this. It appears to be a localized version of the OS, > along with some other utilities. I would bid on it, but I don't want to > get into a bidding war (cf. the thread on DECtape madness). So, Al... Would the Museum be interested in either of these printouts? I'm considering buying them for the Museum if nobody else is interested in doing so. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Oct 14 12:16:10 2009 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2009 10:16:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OS8 Source listing In-Reply-To: References: <20091013074148.GB14011@Update.UU.SE> <4AD60278.5030901@update.uu.se> Message-ID: On Wed, 14 Oct 2009, Rich Alderson wrote: > I took at look at this. It appears to be a localized version of the OS, > along with some other utilities. I would bid on it, but I don't want to > get into a bidding war (cf. the thread on DECtape madness). The thing I noticed is that the mods seem to have been done by the group at OMSI (Oregon Museum of Science and Industry). I'd really love to see details on OMSI's involvement with DEC computers. I spent a lot of my childhood there, and I can guarentee I never saw any sign of any DEC computers during the timeframe they'd have been doing such things. Zane From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Oct 14 12:27:24 2009 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2009 10:27:24 -0700 Subject: OS8 Source listing In-Reply-To: References: <20091013074148.GB14011@Update.UU.SE> <4AD60278.5030901@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <4AD609FC.7030704@bitsavers.org> David Griffith wrote: > On Wed, 14 Oct 2009, Rich Alderson wrote: > > [re ebay items 290359238887 and 290359274421] > >> I took at look at this. It appears to be a localized version of the >> OS, along with some other utilities. I would bid on it, but I don't >> want to get into a bidding war (cf. the thread on DECtape madness). > > So, Al... Would the Museum be interested in either of these printouts? > I'm considering buying them for the Museum if nobody else is interested > in doing so. > > I wouldn't spend much money on it. We have several versions on DECtape. From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Oct 14 12:32:50 2009 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2009 10:32:50 -0700 Subject: OS8 Source listing In-Reply-To: References: <20091013074148.GB14011@Update.UU.SE> <4AD60278.5030901@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <4AD60B42.5000208@bitsavers.org> Zane H. Healy wrote: > > > I'd really love to see > details on OMSI's involvement with DEC computers. OMSI Pascal for the PDP-11 (which became Oregon Software) A quick Google scan shows up PILOT, BASIC, and RSTS utilities from there as well. From dbetz at xlisper.com Wed Oct 14 12:36:22 2009 From: dbetz at xlisper.com (David Betz) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2009 13:36:22 -0400 Subject: OS8 Source listing In-Reply-To: <4AD60B42.5000208@bitsavers.org> References: <20091013074148.GB14011@Update.UU.SE> <4AD60278.5030901@update.uu.se> <4AD60B42.5000208@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Oct 14, 2009, at 1:32 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > Zane H. Healy wrote: >> I'd really love to see >> details on OMSI's involvement with DEC computers. > > OMSI Pascal for the PDP-11 (which became Oregon Software) > A quick Google scan shows up PILOT, BASIC, and RSTS utilities > from there as well. Does anyone have documentation for OMSI BASIC for OS/8? I used that in college but haven't been able to find any documentation on the net. From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Wed Oct 14 15:45:23 2009 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2009 21:45:23 +0100 Subject: Largest ST-506 (MFM or RLL) type HDD? Message-ID: <4AD63863.90708@philpem.me.uk> Hi guys, Does anyone know what the largest capacity MFM or RLL (i.e. ST-506/ST-412 type interface) hard disk was? I know the AT drive types go from 0 to 46 (plus user defined type 47), and the largest of these is #46: 1224 cyls, 15 heads, 17 secs (152MB). Question is, did anyone ever make an MFM drive that big, or was that strictly IDE territory? I know 80MB and 120MB IDE drives existed -- I used to have a Conner 120MB that was an utter pig to make work with any other drive, and I still have an IBM WDA-L80 80MB IDE drive. Thus far, the largest MFM drive I've found is the Micropolis 1325 (85.3Mbytes unformatted). Reason I'm asking is that I'm working on the seek logic for the disc analyser. At the moment, you can seek 127 cylinders at a time in either direction (there isn't a track-counter on the hardware, so all seeks are relative) and I was wondering if there's any point in increasing this further to accommodate drives with higher track counts. Cheers, -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From useddec at gmail.com Wed Oct 14 15:48:31 2009 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2009 15:48:31 -0500 Subject: Looking for a punch-card reader. In-Reply-To: <200910081446.05242.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <200910081446.05242.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <624966d60910141348j3adff703j9dc377fb3151fe24@mail.gmail.com> I still have one Documation M200 or 600 left that may have a DEC lablel on it. It's been sitting for quite a while. Paul On Thu, Oct 8, 2009 at 1:46 PM, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > As I didn't end up getting the OMR-2000 that ended on ebay yesterday, > I'm still sort of looking for a punch card reader, preferably something > that's functional, and that won't take too much effort to connect to a > machine I already have (eg, one of the surplus Documation? 2000 election > units). > > I don't have a big budget for this, or any REAL need, but I do have some > cards I'd like to archive at some point from Purdue's old CDC gear, and > of course who doesn't need to have a punch card setup laying around?? > > Pat > -- > Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ > The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org > From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Oct 14 15:48:40 2009 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2009 13:48:40 -0700 Subject: Largest ST-506 (MFM or RLL) type HDD? In-Reply-To: <4AD63863.90708@philpem.me.uk> References: <4AD63863.90708@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4AD63928.6060100@bitsavers.org> Philip Pemberton wrote: > Hi guys, > Does anyone know what the largest capacity MFM or RLL (i.e. > ST-506/ST-412 type interface) hard disk was? The Maxtor 2190 You should think about ESDI as well, if you can handle the data rates. From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Oct 14 15:55:01 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2009 13:55:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Largest ST-506 (MFM or RLL) type HDD? In-Reply-To: <4AD63863.90708@philpem.me.uk> References: <4AD63863.90708@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <20091014135404.M40088@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 14 Oct 2009, Philip Pemberton wrote: > drive I've found is the Micropolis 1325 (85.3Mbytes unformatted). The ST-4096 was 96MB unformatted, 80MB formatted, for some value of MB From arcarlini at iee.org Wed Oct 14 15:55:26 2009 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2009 21:55:26 +0100 Subject: Largest ST-506 (MFM or RLL) type HDD? In-Reply-To: <4AD63863.90708@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org wrote: > Hi guys, > Does anyone know what the largest capacity MFM or RLL (i.e. > ST-506/ST-412 type interface) hard disk was? I know the AT > drive types > go from 0 to 46 (plus user defined type 47), and the largest > of these is > #46: 1224 cyls, 15 heads, 17 secs (152MB). Question is, did anyone > ever make an MFM drive that big, or was that strictly IDE territory? > The DEC RD54 (Maxtor XT-2190) was 159MB or so. I once had a brace of them on a PC. Antonio From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Oct 14 15:58:36 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2009 16:58:36 -0400 Subject: Largest ST-506 (MFM or RLL) type HDD? In-Reply-To: <4AD63928.6060100@bitsavers.org> References: <4AD63863.90708@philpem.me.uk> <4AD63928.6060100@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On 10/14/09, Al Kossow wrote: > Philip Pemberton wrote: >> Hi guys, >> Does anyone know what the largest capacity MFM or RLL (i.e. >> ST-506/ST-412 type interface) hard disk was? > > The Maxtor 2190 And, in case you aren't familiar with it, it happened to be known as the RD54 in the DEC world, so it is *not* an uncommon drive (I have several). It worked great with the RQDX3 and in the MicroVAX/VAXstation 2000. *Much* more robust than the RD53/Micropolis 1325. -ethan From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Oct 14 15:59:14 2009 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2009 16:59:14 -0400 Subject: Largest ST-506 (MFM or RLL) type HDD? In-Reply-To: <20091014135404.M40088@shell.lmi.net> References: <4AD63863.90708@philpem.me.uk> <20091014135404.M40088@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4AD63BA2.4000609@gmail.com> Fred Cisin wrote: > On Wed, 14 Oct 2009, Philip Pemberton wrote: >> drive I've found is the Micropolis 1325 (85.3Mbytes unformatted). > > The ST-4096 was 96MB unformatted, 80MB formatted, for some value of MB Maxtor 2190. 155MB Peace... Sridhar From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Oct 14 16:16:18 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2009 17:16:18 -0400 Subject: Largest ST-506 (MFM or RLL) type HDD? In-Reply-To: References: <4AD63863.90708@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: On Wed, Oct 14, 2009 at 4:55 PM, wrote: > The DEC RD54 (Maxtor XT-2190) was 159MB or so. I once had a brace of > them on a PC. I had a PCs or two with a Micropolis 1325, but I'd already converted over to Adaptec SCSI controllers and embedded SCSI drives (frequently surplus/castoffs from a Sun environment) rather than go above about 60MB on MFM/ST412. I didn't get an IDE drive for anything until after 1992 - it was all small MFM and large(er) SCSI for my sub-32-bit environments. Any "large" disks ended up going on VAXen and PDP-11s. The idea of a PC with "a brace" of FH 5.25" drives on it is somewhat daunting. The closest thing I can imagine to it is a fully-loaded BA123, and I've never *seen* one of those above two or three spindles. -ethan From cclist at sydex.com Wed Oct 14 16:43:36 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2009 14:43:36 -0700 Subject: Largest ST-506 (MFM or RLL) type HDD? In-Reply-To: <4AD63BA2.4000609@gmail.com> References: <4AD63863.90708@philpem.me.uk>, <20091014135404.M40088@shell.lmi.net>, <4AD63BA2.4000609@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4AD5E398.28273.495EC6@cclist.sydex.com> On 14 Oct 2009 at 16:59, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Maxtor 2190. 155MB Also the Priam/Atasi 519 and Storage Dimensions AT-160, The 1224C/15H seemed to be the top of the range. I used my 2190s and 519s with WD 1006VSR2 controllers to gain yet 50% more. I never got a chance to try one with a Perstor ARLL controller. At those capacities, SCSI and MFM were pretty close in pricing--and SCSI could go much larger. SCSI had the advantage of being faster. --Chuck From arcarlini at iee.org Wed Oct 14 16:47:36 2009 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2009 22:47:36 +0100 Subject: Largest ST-506 (MFM or RLL) type HDD? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <0EB2603EEEEA494DA821ACA5D72F6EE8@ANTONIOPC> Ethan wrote: > On Wed, Oct 14, 2009 at 4:55 PM, wrote: >> The DEC RD54 (Maxtor XT-2190) was 159MB or so. I once had a brace of >> them on a PC. > > I had a PCs or two with a Micropolis 1325, but I'd already > converted over to Adaptec SCSI controllers and embedded SCSI > drives (frequently surplus/castoffs from a Sun environment) > rather than go above about 60MB on MFM/ST412. I didn't get > an IDE drive for anything until after 1992 - it was all small > MFM and large(er) SCSI for my sub-32-bit environments. Any > "large" disks ended up going on VAXen and PDP-11s. They were discarded at work and my (286) PC at the time had A 20MB drive in there. So I was quite grateful :-) > The idea of a PC with "a brace" of FH 5.25" drives on it is > somewhat daunting. Imagine a desktop case with a "flip-top" lid (easily opened, just press two buttons, one on each side. One RD54 sat neatly under the 5.25" floppy drive (where two PC HDs would normally go). The other RD54 sat upside down _on top_ of the floppy drive ... there was no room in the case, you see ... Quite scary that I have an 8GB flash disk that goes to and from work daily these days! Times change. Luckily we don't have to. Antonio From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Wed Oct 14 16:49:21 2009 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2009 22:49:21 +0100 Subject: Largest ST-506 (MFM or RLL) type HDD? In-Reply-To: <4AD63928.6060100@bitsavers.org> References: <4AD63863.90708@philpem.me.uk> <4AD63928.6060100@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4AD64761.2070900@philpem.me.uk> Al Kossow wrote: > The Maxtor 2190 TH99 lists that as 1224 cyl, 15 heads, 33 spt, 256 bytes per sector. And the prize for "biggest MFM disc" goes to.... Also, I wasn't aware that there were any MFM drives that handled precompensation on-disk. That's useful to know. > You should think about ESDI as well, if you can handle the data rates. Maybe, but I need to find a spec for the ESDI interface first. Wikipedia's entry is decidedly thin on actual information (and Google just keeps giving me links to the usual scam and keyword-stuffing sites). It looks like in ESDI, the drive handles all the bit-level encoding and decoding (so it's about half-way between MFM/RLL "dumb" drives and SASI/SCSI/ATA "embedded controller" drives). That means the actual read/write stuff might be easier, but I doubt you'd be able to put both MFM and ESDI in the same FPGA microcode (the I/Os would be vastly different). You'd still have to deal with finding bit-sync markers... Hm. Maybe later. -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From pete at dunnington.plus.com Wed Oct 14 17:18:20 2009 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2009 23:18:20 +0100 Subject: Largest ST-506 (MFM or RLL) type HDD? In-Reply-To: <4AD63863.90708@philpem.me.uk> References: <4AD63863.90708@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4AD64E2C.4090702@dunnington.plus.com> On 14/10/2009 21:45, Philip Pemberton wrote: > Hi guys, > Does anyone know what the largest capacity MFM or RLL (i.e. > ST-506/ST-412 type interface) hard disk was? I know the AT drive types > go from 0 to 46 (plus user defined type 47), and the largest of these is > #46: 1224 cyls, 15 heads, 17 secs (152MB). Question is, did anyone ever > make an MFM drive that big, or was that strictly IDE territory? Maxtor did - the XT-2190 is 151MB (formatted). DEC sold them as RD54 drives. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From ajp166 at verizon.net Wed Oct 14 18:01:11 2009 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2009 19:01:11 -0400 Subject: Largest ST-506 (MFM or RLL) type HDD? In-Reply-To: References: <4AD63863.90708@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4AD65837.6050501@verizon.net> ;) I'll have to show my BA123 uVAXII with 2 RZ56, RD54(maxtor 150mb), and the RD52 (Quantum D540 31mb) it has both RQDX3 and CMT SCSI for a whopping 1.4GB of storage on 4 full height drives. Thats about 180 Watts of drives alone. The drive bay is only 4 drives slot nominally used for RX50/TK50 has a RZ56 in it. I also have a few BA42 storage boxes, those hold two RZ56 or any full height 5.25" drives and weigh a bit. Since I have an abundance of RZ56s and RD52s I use them as backup (image of the drive) rather than slower TK50. My 11/73 has 4 RD52s, RX33, RX02 and RL01 in one rack. I'm used to big drives like RA8x and RA9x so these are somewhat small. Allison Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Wed, Oct 14, 2009 at 4:55 PM, wrote: > >> The DEC RD54 (Maxtor XT-2190) was 159MB or so. I once had a brace of >> them on a PC. >> > > I had a PCs or two with a Micropolis 1325, but I'd already converted > over to Adaptec SCSI controllers and embedded SCSI drives (frequently > surplus/castoffs from a Sun environment) rather than go above about > 60MB on MFM/ST412. I didn't get an IDE drive for anything until after > 1992 - it was all small MFM and large(er) SCSI for my sub-32-bit > environments. Any "large" disks ended up going on VAXen and PDP-11s. > > The idea of a PC with "a brace" of FH 5.25" drives on it is somewhat > daunting. The closest thing I can imagine to it is a fully-loaded > BA123, and I've never *seen* one of those above two or three spindles. > > -ethan > > From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Wed Oct 14 18:06:50 2009 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2009 00:06:50 +0100 Subject: Largest ST-506 (MFM or RLL) type HDD? In-Reply-To: <4AD64761.2070900@philpem.me.uk> References: <4AD63863.90708@philpem.me.uk> <4AD63928.6060100@bitsavers.org> <4AD64761.2070900@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4AD6598A.2050706@philpem.me.uk> Philip Pemberton wrote: > Maybe, but I need to find a spec for the ESDI interface first. ... 2... 1... and I realise I just stuck my foot in it. http://bitsavers.org/pdf/micropolis/ESDI_spec_X3.170-90.pdf (I even had the /pdf/micropolis directory open in a different browser tab while I was skimming the contents of /pdf/maxtor ...) I will now bow my head in shame. Later, -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From ajp166 at verizon.net Wed Oct 14 18:07:48 2009 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2009 19:07:48 -0400 Subject: Largest ST-506 (MFM or RLL) type HDD? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4AD659C4.5010705@verizon.net> Antonio, I still have working RD54s (maxtors) (151mb DEC RQDX3 formatted). For MFM 160mb was about the largest. For RLL you could get to about 200mb. EDSI was the 200mb and larger interface for the largest of the 5.25" non integrated drives. SCSI started with drives in the 20MB range but I have SCSI-1 drives like RZ56s (5.25" full height) at 670MB and a RZ58 (5.25" full height) at a 1.3GB. Allison arcarlini at iee.org wrote: > cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org wrote: > >> Hi guys, >> Does anyone know what the largest capacity MFM or RLL (i.e. >> ST-506/ST-412 type interface) hard disk was? I know the AT >> drive types >> go from 0 to 46 (plus user defined type 47), and the largest >> of these is >> #46: 1224 cyls, 15 heads, 17 secs (152MB). Question is, did anyone >> ever make an MFM drive that big, or was that strictly IDE territory? >> >> > > The DEC RD54 (Maxtor XT-2190) was 159MB or so. I once had a brace of > them on a PC. > > Antonio > > > From rickb at bensene.com Wed Oct 14 21:06:55 2009 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2009 19:06:55 -0700 Subject: OS8 Source listing In-Reply-To: References: <20091013074148.GB14011@Update.UU.SE><4AD60278.5030901@update.uu.se> Message-ID: DEC had quite a place at OMSI in at least in the 1973 through late 1970's timeframe. OMSI had a Straight-8, with quite a bit of RAM, one of the fixed head disk drives (was it RA32?), a few DECTape drives, and a Tektronix 4002 as a console terminal, as well as a Centronix dot matrix printer, and if I recall correctly, even one of the small Calcomp drum plotters. I don't know what happened to the Straight-8, but it was quite heavily used when I was there. OMSI had computer programming classes and used the 8 for teaching assembly and BASIC programming. They also had a rather heavily configured PDP 11/45 running some fairly early version of RSTS, with a dial-in modem bank, and a number of terminals in a "terminal room" as well as a terminal in a museum exhibit that was connected to the 11. OMSI did a lot of development work, especially related to development of a PASCAL compiler on the 11. I also know that they did quite a bit of modification to OS/8 on the PDP 8. I remember seeing source listings for both OS/8 and RSTS on green-line paper around the place. They also had a number of those DEC logic labs, along with tons of software and documentation for the 8 and 11. I once found a bug in RSTS that allowed me to capture PPN's and passwords from any dial-up terminal. I ended up finding the [1,2] (systems operator) password at one point, and due to teenage foolishness on my part, ended up getting caught. OMSI had DEC Systems Engineers all over this issue, sending some of their expert RSTS guys to OMSI figure out the bug and get rid of it. OMSI apparently had some pretty good pull with DEC, and I believe was well-supported by DEC. Eventually, the folks that were involved with the development of PASCAL ended up spinning off their own company called Oregon Software, and ended up taking over OMSI's 11/45, but leased services back to OMSI at a very low rate. I'm not at all sure of how the whole business deal worked, but at around that time, I graduated from high school and went to work at Tektronix, and he much more computer toys to play with at Tek then OMSI had, and kind of lost touch with the whole thing. One person that I fondly remember was a man who was the head of the computing department at OMSI at the time was named Rusty Whitney. I was involved with him when I got caught for "breaking in" to the OMSI RSTS system. He was really great in dealing with the situation. I Googled him just now, and found his Linked-In page: http://www.linkedin.com/pub/rusty-whitney/8/93/397 He was the founder of Oregon Software. I'd bet that he has some great stories to tell about those days. I'm going to try contacting him to see if he remembers the whole RSTS hacking situation. Rick Bensene The Old Calculator Museum http://oldcalculatormuseum.com > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Zane H. Healy > Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2009 10:16 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: RE: OS8 Source listing > > > > > The thing I noticed is that the mods seem to have been done by the > group at > OMSI (Oregon Museum of Science and Industry). I'd really love to see > details on OMSI's involvement with DEC computers. I spent a lot of my > childhood there, and I can guarentee I never saw any sign of any DEC > computers during the timeframe they'd have been doing such things. > > Zane > From legalize at xmission.com Wed Oct 14 22:17:52 2009 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2009 21:17:52 -0600 Subject: OS8 Source listing In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 14 Oct 2009 19:06:55 -0700. Message-ID: In article , "Rick Bensene" writes: > I once found a bug in RSTS that allowed me to capture PPN's and > passwords from any dial-up terminal. [...] As a 14 yr. old I once found a bug in RSTS. It turns out that when you submitted a batch job, it ran as user BATCH which was a priveleged user. Oops. I then proceeded to run a batch job that ran PASSWD and listed out all the accounts and their plaintext passwords :-). I discussed the interesting "bug" I found with some other users who wanted me to keep it quiet, but I reported it to the admins. I was rewarded by being made a priveleged user and being only 14 I abused it, of course :-). There was a CUSP called WATCH that would use PEEK to snoop the output buffers of another user's terminal. You could watch on your terminal what was coming out on their terminal. We had a locally modified version called FORCE that would also map your keyboard input into their input buffer. I ran FORCE and gave some random users a hard time by typing line-noise into their input just to be a pest. I lost my priveleged user status for that :-), IIRC. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From bqt at softjar.se Wed Oct 14 09:15:10 2009 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2009 16:15:10 +0200 Subject: 6502 assembler for RSX? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4AD5DCEE.9000609@softjar.se> "Ed Groenenberg" wrote: > Hi, > > Has anybody heard of a 6502 assembler running under RSX-11M? > And is there any documentation for it? Pretty sure there have been one or two in the DECUS archives. But I'd have to make some searches to locate it. But you can perhaps do that yourself on trailing edge? Johnny From bqt at softjar.se Wed Oct 14 14:10:21 2009 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2009 21:10:21 +0200 Subject: OS8 Source listing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4AD6221D.1080707@softjar.se> Pontus wrote: >> Pontus Pihlgren wrote: >> > Hi. >> > >> > I was browsing ebay and found these two auctions: >> > >> > http://cgi.ebay.com/PDP8-PDP-8-pdp8e-Source-Printout_W0QQitemZ290359238887 >> > >> > http://cgi.ebay.com/PDP8-PDP-8-pdp8e-TECO-Source-Printout_W0QQitemZ290359274421 >> > >> > I don't know if source listings where normally distributed or if this is >> > a rare find, perhaps even something that should go to a museum. Is this >> > source readily available? >> > >> > If not, I hope whoever buys it will scan it an preserve it, I'm >> > considering doing it myself. >> > >> > Kind Regards, >> > Pontus. >> > > > No replies? surely someone must know if this unique or available to > anyone with a set of OS/8 tapes? Pretty sure I've seen the sources already on the net. Pretty sure I also have them somewhere. I definitely have TECO-8. And it was available from the DECUS library in the past, but that was many years ago by now. (That's where I got it from.) Maybe you should start looking at our own ftp archive? :-) Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From snhirsch at gmail.com Wed Oct 14 17:10:34 2009 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2009 18:10:34 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Largest ST-506 (MFM or RLL) type HDD? In-Reply-To: <4AD63928.6060100@bitsavers.org> References: <4AD63863.90708@philpem.me.uk> <4AD63928.6060100@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 14 Oct 2009, Al Kossow wrote: >> Does anyone know what the largest capacity MFM or RLL (i.e. ST-506/ST-412 >> type interface) hard disk was? > > The Maxtor 2190 That's what I would have said as well.. Has 1224 cylinders and 15 (or is it 17) heads. IIRC, they required the WD2010 controller due to some limitations of the WD10xx series. Steve -- From pontus at Update.UU.SE Thu Oct 15 02:21:08 2009 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2009 09:21:08 +0200 Subject: OS8 Source listing In-Reply-To: <4AD6221D.1080707@softjar.se> References: <4AD6221D.1080707@softjar.se> Message-ID: <20091015072108.GA6853@Update.UU.SE> > > Maybe you should start looking at our own ftp archive? :-) > Ah, ehm, well I thought about it, but I was to lazy. It looks like we have it :) Cheers, Pontus. From pontus at Update.UU.SE Thu Oct 15 02:24:35 2009 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2009 09:24:35 +0200 Subject: OS8 Source listing In-Reply-To: References: <20091013074148.GB14011@Update.UU.SE> <4AD60278.5030901@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <20091015072435.GB6853@Update.UU.SE> > > I took at look at this. It appears to be a localized version of the OS, along > with some other utilities. I would bid on it, but I don't want to get into a > bidding war (cf. the thread on DECtape madness). > I will back down and let you have it. I think you are in a better position in preserving and appreciating this. I doesn't sound like its a big deal anyway. Kind Regards, Pontus. From wmaddox at pacbell.net Thu Oct 15 04:29:42 2009 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2009 02:29:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCIPP 1600 info? In-Reply-To: <200910071406.08704.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <278318.45018.qm@web82603.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- On Wed, 10/7/09, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > Does anyone know anything about a > Tullamore/Victoreen SCIPP 1600?? I > have found one of these, and it appears to be some sort of > computer- > based "analyzer" from the 70s, This is almost certainly a pulse height analyzer. Pulses from a particle detector are sorted by amplitude and counted. The resulting spectra can be used to identify the composition of an irradiated sample, etc. Someone who knows something about nuclear physics could probably tell you more. Google for "pulse height analyzer" or "pulse height analysis". There were several companies making dedicated non-computer PHAs, such as Nuclear Data. DEC sold a number of machines configured to serve as a PHA, including the PDP-7, PDP-8, and PDP-12. I have a brochure somewhere on one of these. The PDP-7 at U. of Oregon in Eugene was used for this purpose. --Bill From cclist at sydex.com Thu Oct 15 11:02:15 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2009 09:02:15 -0700 Subject: Largest ST-506 (MFM or RLL) type HDD? In-Reply-To: References: <4AD63863.90708@philpem.me.uk>, <4AD63928.6060100@bitsavers.org>, Message-ID: <4AD6E517.15090.99408B@cclist.sydex.com> On 14 Oct 2009 at 18:10, Steven Hirsch wrote: > IIRC, they required the WD2010 controller due to some limitations of > the WD10xx series. It was a BIOS software limitation, pure and simple. The "standard" INT 13H BIOS interface calls for a 10-sector cylinder number (8 bits in CH and 2 "borrowed" bits from the sector number register in CL). Some late BIOSes (such as those on the WD1006VSRx) expanded the cylinder number by borrowing some bits from the head number in register DH. If you were content to throw away (or supply your own driver for he extra) 200 cylinders, any MFM controller could be used. I'm still suprised that everyone checked in with the Maxtor and not the earlier Priam 519, which was a very good drive. --Chuck From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Oct 15 12:00:37 2009 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2009 13:00:37 -0400 Subject: Largest ST-506 (MFM or RLL) type HDD? In-Reply-To: <4AD6E517.15090.99408B@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4AD63863.90708@philpem.me.uk>, <4AD63928.6060100@bitsavers.org>, <4AD6E517.15090.99408B@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4AD75535.3090202@gmail.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > I'm still suprised that everyone checked in with the Maxtor and not > the earlier Priam 519, which was a very good drive. I would have, but I've never actually seen one. Peace... Sridhar From thomas.gardner at sbcglobal.net Thu Oct 15 12:01:12 2009 From: thomas.gardner at sbcglobal.net (Tom Gardner) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2009 10:01:12 -0700 Subject: Largest ST-506 (MFM or RLL) type HDD? Message-ID: Philip Pemberton wrote: > Hi guys, > Does anyone know what the largest capacity MFM or RLL (i.e. > ST-506/ST-412 type interface) hard disk was? And then there was the Maxtor X1240R circa 2Q1987, 239.98 MB using RLL Tom From cclist at sydex.com Thu Oct 15 12:19:23 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2009 10:19:23 -0700 Subject: Largest ST-506 (MFM or RLL) type HDD? In-Reply-To: <4AD75535.3090202@gmail.com> References: <4AD63863.90708@philpem.me.uk>, <4AD6E517.15090.99408B@cclist.sydex.com>, <4AD75535.3090202@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4AD6F72B.9196.DFDDEF@cclist.sydex.com> On 15 Oct 2009 at 13:00, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Chuck Guzis wrote: > > I'm still suprised that everyone checked in with the Maxtor and not > > the earlier Priam 519, which was a very good drive. > > I would have, but I've never actually seen one. A quick web check shows that they're still being stocked by some sellers (as well as their Atasi rebrandings), so for those not able to find the Maxtors, the Priams may well be an equivalent substitution. (I've got two of the buggers; a little noisy when seeking, but they've always been that way). --Chuck From bill.whitmer at itt.com Thu Oct 15 13:48:58 2009 From: bill.whitmer at itt.com (Whitmer, Bill - Systems) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2009 12:48:58 -0600 Subject: CLEAN computers Re: Grid 1520 Message-ID: <8F5861D22A50BC4A9F33CEB8F2551F691406F39532@ITTSYSHQEMAIL1.systems.de.ittind.com> Hi Do you still have the Grid 1520? Did you get it up? If not I may be able to help My name is Bill Whitmer. I work for ITT. I've had some success repairing the 1520. Bill Whitmer bill.whitmer at itt.com 719 594 5068 This e-mail and any files transmitted with it may be proprietary and are intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this e-mail in error please notify the sender. Please note that any views or opinions presented in this e-mail are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of ITT Corporation. The recipient should check this e-mail and any attachments for the presence of viruses. ITT accepts no liability for any damage caused by any virus transmitted by this e-mail. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Oct 15 14:40:49 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2009 15:40:49 -0400 Subject: OS8 Source listing In-Reply-To: References: <20091013074148.GB14011@Update.UU.SE> <4AD60278.5030901@update.uu.se> Message-ID: On 10/14/09, Rick Bensene wrote: > OMSI had a Straight-8, with quite a bit of RAM, one of the fixed head > disk drives (was it RA32?)... Probably a DF32. "R" for disks came a short time later (like with the RF08 or RK8). The "F" means "fixed" in DEC's naming scheme, while "A" would mean it's an SDI disk (RA60, RA70, RA80, RA81, RA92...) -ethan From rickb at bensene.com Fri Oct 16 09:01:44 2009 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2009 07:01:44 -0700 Subject: OMSI PDP-8 (was OS8 Source listing) In-Reply-To: References: <20091013074148.GB14011@Update.UU.SE><4AD60278.5030901@update.uu.se> Message-ID: > > On 10/14/09, Rick Bensene wrote: > > OMSI had a Straight-8, with quite a bit of RAM(er...core something like 24K?), one of the fixed head > > disk drives (was it RA32?)... > > Probably a DF32. "R" for disks came a short time later (like with the > RF08 or RK8). The "F" means "fixed" in DEC's naming scheme, while "A" > would mean it's an SDI disk (RA60, RA70, RA80, RA81, RA92...) Yup, that's it...DF32. It was housed in a full-height rack. I recall the controller filled quite a bit of the rack...seemed the controller was more complex than the Straight-8. I remember that the folks there were always very afraid of power failures. I was there once when the power did bounce a bit, and everyone got very nervous that the drive might crash. It seemed to make it through OK. Another thing I remember is that one time something went awry with the DECTape controller. A DEC FSE came to fix it. Turned out it was something with the power supply for the controller. The power supply was replaced, but somehow a connection got swapped somewhere, and when it was powered up, the controller let out all of its magic smoke. It took a couple of weeks before the controller was fixed. Somewhere around here I have a DECTape from that system...I took an assembly language programming class there and my class project (printing text banner pages on the Centronix printer) files were on the tape. -Rick From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Oct 16 09:43:49 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2009 10:43:49 -0400 Subject: OMSI PDP-8 (was OS8 Source listing) In-Reply-To: References: <20091013074148.GB14011@Update.UU.SE> <4AD60278.5030901@update.uu.se> Message-ID: On 10/16/09, Rick Bensene wrote: >> >> On 10/14/09, Rick Bensene wrote: >> > OMSI had a Straight-8, with quite a bit of RAM(er...core something > like 24K?), one of the fixed head disk drives (was it RA32?)... >> >> Probably a DF32. > > Yup, that's it...DF32. It was housed in a full-height rack. I recall > the controller filled quite a bit of the rack...seemed the controller > was more complex than the Straight-8. I remember that the folks there > were always very afraid of power failures. I was there once when the > power did bounce a bit, and everyone got very nervous that the drive > might crash. It seemed to make it through OK. The DF32 carries its own controller in the primary unit - there's room behind the faceplate for several "system blocks" of 8 single-sided modules or cable paddle cards. The "master" DF-32 has a full load of slots and modules to implement the IOTs and the 3-cycle databreak logic. The expansion drives, also called DS-32, have fewer slots and modules because it's only the logic necessary to read/write the drive and talk to the master. The likely reason they were afraid of power failures is that the heads do not retract on a DF32. They land right on their tracks. Too many spin-down/spin-up cycles is bad. The drives, in fact, have the ability to disengage power to the logic while leaving the motor spinning - you can do basic maintenance without a complete power-down. You can hook up just a single DF32 to any negibus machine with just a large wad of cables - there are a few modules inside the CPU for bus interfacing and the CPU component of the 3-cycle databreak, but I think (since I do have this gear) that there's no "controller" between the first drive and the CPU, unlike, say, an RK8 or TC08. > Another thing I remember is that one time something went awry with the > DECTape controller. A DEC FSE came to fix it. Turned out it was > something with the power supply for the controller. The power supply > was replaced, but somehow a connection got swapped somewhere, and when > it was powered up, the controller let out all of its magic smoke. It > took a couple of weeks before the controller was fixed. Oof! If it was an R-series-based controller (contemporary with the CPU), the voltages coming off the PSU are +10V and -15V. Swapping anything around would likely blow a *lot* of stuff up. An M-series controller (built after, say, 1968), would be +5V and GND for sure, and probably still the -15V here and there - still not good to mix up. > Somewhere around here I have a DECTape from that system...I took an > assembly language programming class there and my class project (printing > text banner pages on the Centronix printer) files were on the tape. That would be an interesting tape to find. Unless it's been stored in an uninsulated attic or in a barn, I'd expect it could still be read - they are very robust. I don't presently have a DECtape drive up and running, but many people on the list do and could help, once you run across it again. -ethan From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Oct 16 10:14:36 2009 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2009 08:14:36 -0700 Subject: OMSI (was: OS8 Source listing) In-Reply-To: References: <20091013074148.GB14011@Update.UU.SE><4AD60278.5030901@update.uu.se> Message-ID: Thanks Rick, Where on earth was this stuff hidden away? I'm trying to picture where they'd have had the room. My parents were in the Tek Rock club so I spent a lot of time back then at OMSI, including places that weren't normally open to the public. I miss the old OMSI. The new OMSI is a shadow of its former self as far as I'm concerned. All the Cool stuff they used to have is pretty much gone with a couple exceptions. We've been to the Children's Museum a couple times in the last few years, and they only use a small fraction of the space in the old OMSI building. The only good things I see about OMSI having moved is the parking and the sub. Sadly they've allowed the Mercury Capsule replica to be destroyed by kids as it's no longer sealed up. Zane At 7:06 PM -0700 10/14/09, Rick Bensene wrote: >DEC had quite a place at OMSI in at least in the 1973 through late >1970's timeframe. >OMSI had a Straight-8, with quite a bit of RAM, one of the fixed head >disk drives (was it RA32?), a few DECTape drives, and a Tektronix 4002 >as a console terminal, as well as a Centronix dot matrix printer, and if >I recall correctly, even one of the small Calcomp drum plotters. I >don't know what happened to the Straight-8, but it was quite heavily >used when I was there. OMSI had computer programming classes and used >the 8 for teaching assembly and BASIC programming. > >They also had a rather heavily configured PDP 11/45 running some fairly >early version of RSTS, with a dial-in modem bank, and a number of >terminals in a "terminal room" as well as a terminal in a museum exhibit >that was connected to the 11. OMSI did a lot of development work, >especially related to development of a PASCAL compiler on the 11. I >also know that they did quite a bit of modification to OS/8 on the PDP >8. I remember seeing source listings for both OS/8 and RSTS on >green-line paper around the place. They also had a number of those DEC >logic labs, along with tons of software and documentation for the 8 and >11. > >I once found a bug in RSTS that allowed me to capture PPN's and >passwords from any dial-up terminal. I ended up finding the [1,2] >(systems operator) password at one point, and due to teenage foolishness >on my part, ended up getting caught. OMSI had DEC Systems Engineers all >over this issue, sending some of their expert RSTS guys to OMSI figure >out the bug and get rid of it. OMSI apparently had some pretty good >pull with DEC, and I believe was well-supported by DEC. > >Eventually, the folks that were involved with the development of PASCAL >ended up spinning off their own company called Oregon Software, and >ended up taking over OMSI's 11/45, but leased services back to OMSI at a >very low rate. I'm not at all sure of how the whole business deal >worked, but at around that time, I graduated from high school and went >to work at Tektronix, and he much more computer toys to play with at Tek >then OMSI had, and kind of lost touch with the whole thing. > >One person that I fondly remember was a man who was the head of the >computing department at OMSI at the time was named Rusty Whitney. I was >involved with him when I got caught for "breaking in" to the OMSI RSTS >system. He was really great in dealing with the situation. I Googled >him just now, and found his Linked-In page: >http://www.linkedin.com/pub/rusty-whitney/8/93/397 >He was the founder of Oregon Software. I'd bet that he has some great >stories to tell about those days. >I'm going to try contacting him to see if he remembers the whole RSTS >hacking situation. > >Rick Bensene >The Old Calculator Museum >http://oldcalculatormuseum.com > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- >> bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Zane H. Healy >> Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2009 10:16 AM >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >> Subject: RE: OS8 Source listing >> >> >> >> >> The thing I noticed is that the mods seem to have been done by the > > group at >> OMSI (Oregon Museum of Science and Industry). I'd really love to see >> details on OMSI's involvement with DEC computers. I spent a lot of my >> childhood there, and I can guarentee I never saw any sign of any DEC >> computers during the timeframe they'd have been doing such things. >> >> Zane >> -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From snhirsch at gmail.com Fri Oct 16 06:40:04 2009 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2009 07:40:04 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Largest ST-506 (MFM or RLL) type HDD? In-Reply-To: <4AD6E517.15090.99408B@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4AD63863.90708@philpem.me.uk>, <4AD63928.6060100@bitsavers.org>, <4AD6E517.15090.99408B@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 15 Oct 2009, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 14 Oct 2009 at 18:10, Steven Hirsch wrote: > >> IIRC, they required the WD2010 controller due to some limitations of >> the WD10xx series. > > It was a BIOS software limitation, pure and simple. The "standard" > INT 13H BIOS interface calls for a 10-sector cylinder number (8 bits > in CH and 2 "borrowed" bits from the sector number register in CL). > Some late BIOSes (such as those on the WD1006VSRx) expanded the > cylinder number by borrowing some bits from the head number in > register DH. Hmm. There was a limitation somewhere that the WD20xx series corrected. Number of heads, perhaps? Or am I confusing things totally? -- From le_moog at sky.com Fri Oct 16 11:23:15 2009 From: le_moog at sky.com (Dan) Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2009 17:23:15 +0100 Subject: Torch Unicorn Message-ID: Just wondering if you still have the Torch Unicorn ir discs? From cclist at sydex.com Fri Oct 16 13:20:27 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2009 11:20:27 -0700 Subject: Largest ST-506 (MFM or RLL) type HDD? In-Reply-To: References: <4AD63863.90708@philpem.me.uk>, <4AD6E517.15090.99408B@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4AD856FB.1551.63E51CC@cclist.sydex.com> On 16 Oct 2009 at 7:40, Steven Hirsch wrote: > Hmm. There was a limitation somewhere that the WD20xx series > corrected. Number of heads, perhaps? Or am I confusing things > totally? I'm not certain--I do know that the entire drive is physically accessible using a garden-variety WD AT-style controller, but that BIOS support for the extra 200 cylinders was lacking in most adapters. If we get sufficiently desperate, I can haul one out and do a look-see. It should still have whatever data I last left there 20 or so years ago. --Chuck From stephane.tsacas at gmail.com Sat Oct 17 05:42:46 2009 From: stephane.tsacas at gmail.com (Stephane Tsacas) Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2009 12:42:46 +0200 Subject: Working Cubix BladeServer. ERS Fault Tolerant II. (Craigslist) Message-ID: Hi, I think this is a 486 based redundant server: http://seattle.craigslist.org/see/sys/1421994625.html > Looking to make new space at work. Have a working Cubix BladeServer. ERS > Fault Tolerant II. > > Make an offer. > Have the control cables as well. > > Cheers, > Erik > 360.487.9504 -- Stephane http://3w.posterous.com From brianlanning at gmail.com Sat Oct 17 12:48:19 2009 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2009 12:48:19 -0500 Subject: annoying ebay behavior Message-ID: <6dbe3c380910171048i3ff34c9i7d0e1cf5e6476ee3@mail.gmail.com> I had a bid on a laser 128 computer, working complete with power supply. It had been listed in the past for too high a price. This time, the pirce was reasonable though so I bid. There was a second one with a matching external floppy also. I was hoping to make an offer on all of it at the end of the auction. Yesterday, the items disappeared. I guess the seller pulled the items. I wish there were a more sane place to trade this stuff. I guess I have just have to wait for somoene to give up another storage facility. lol thanks for putting up with my venting. From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sat Oct 17 13:38:25 2009 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2009 19:38:25 +0100 Subject: annoying ebay behavior In-Reply-To: <6dbe3c380910171048i3ff34c9i7d0e1cf5e6476ee3@mail.gmail.com> References: <6dbe3c380910171048i3ff34c9i7d0e1cf5e6476ee3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <000801ca4f59$044b0730$0ce11590$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Brian Lanning > Sent: 17 October 2009 18:48 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: annoying ebay behavior > > I had a bid on a laser 128 computer, working complete with power > supply. It > had been listed in the past for too high a price. This time, the pirce > was > reasonable though so I bid. There was a second one with a matching > external > floppy also. I was hoping to make an offer on all of it at the end of > the > auction. Yesterday, the items disappeared. I guess the seller pulled > the > items. I wish there were a more sane place to trade this stuff. I > guess I > have just have to wait for somoene to give up another storage facility. > lol thanks for putting up with my venting. I have seen this technique used by people trying to avoid the higher fees associated with a higher starting price and/or a reserve. If they think the bidding won't meet the reserve they have set themselves (and not told eBay about) then they pull the item before the end. When someone did this to me I let it go the first time as there might have been a genuine reason, but when the same person did the same thing after relisting I sent a complaint to eBay, after this was repeated a couple of times eBay contacted the seller (I know because he complained about it in the actual listing when he relisted again). Regards Rob From teoz at neo.rr.com Sat Oct 17 13:55:05 2009 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2009 14:55:05 -0400 Subject: annoying ebay behavior References: <6dbe3c380910171048i3ff34c9i7d0e1cf5e6476ee3@mail.gmail.com> <000801ca4f59$044b0730$0ce11590$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <0475F8FF6DE84AD1AD14F8B6A2BF1CF8@dell8300> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rob Jarratt" To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" Sent: Saturday, October 17, 2009 2:38 PM Subject: RE: annoying ebay behavior >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- >> bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Brian Lanning >> Sent: 17 October 2009 18:48 >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >> Subject: annoying ebay behavior >> >> I had a bid on a laser 128 computer, working complete with power >> supply. It >> had been listed in the past for too high a price. This time, the pirce >> was >> reasonable though so I bid. There was a second one with a matching >> external >> floppy also. I was hoping to make an offer on all of it at the end of >> the >> auction. Yesterday, the items disappeared. I guess the seller pulled >> the >> items. I wish there were a more sane place to trade this stuff. I >> guess I >> have just have to wait for somoene to give up another storage facility. >> lol thanks for putting up with my venting. > > I have seen this technique used by people trying to avoid the higher fees > associated with a higher starting price and/or a reserve. If they think > the > bidding won't meet the reserve they have set themselves (and not told eBay > about) then they pull the item before the end. When someone did this to me > I > let it go the first time as there might have been a genuine reason, but > when > the same person did the same thing after relisting I sent a complaint to > eBay, after this was repeated a couple of times eBay contacted the seller > (I > know because he complained about it in the actual listing when he relisted > again). > > Regards > > Rob > I have seen people pull auctions without bids before they end, but pulling items with bids (and a bunch of people watching ready to snipe at the end) is not common. From curt at atarimuseum.com Sat Oct 17 14:37:49 2009 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2009 15:37:49 -0400 Subject: annoying ebay behavior In-Reply-To: <6dbe3c380910171048i3ff34c9i7d0e1cf5e6476ee3@mail.gmail.com> References: <6dbe3c380910171048i3ff34c9i7d0e1cf5e6476ee3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4ADA1D0D.8040500@atarimuseum.com> Ebay has been getting more and more annoying and less and less useful as it "matures" and "grows" Sometimes it seems more worthwhile to do old newsgroup manually run auctions. Curt Brian Lanning wrote: > I had a bid on a laser 128 computer, working complete with power supply. It > had been listed in the past for too high a price. This time, the pirce was > reasonable though so I bid. There was a second one with a matching external > floppy also. I was hoping to make an offer on all of it at the end of the > auction. Yesterday, the items disappeared. I guess the seller pulled the > items. I wish there were a more sane place to trade this stuff. I guess I > have just have to wait for somoene to give up another storage facility. > lol thanks for putting up with my venting. > > From brianlanning at gmail.com Sat Oct 17 14:46:29 2009 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2009 14:46:29 -0500 Subject: annoying ebay behavior In-Reply-To: <4ADA1D0D.8040500@atarimuseum.com> References: <6dbe3c380910171048i3ff34c9i7d0e1cf5e6476ee3@mail.gmail.com> <4ADA1D0D.8040500@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <6dbe3c380910171246r59b2fc41mf8c20298c4fc0ec9@mail.gmail.com> I know we've talked in the past about a centralized place to trade computers, but it never seems to happen. I guess it's like herding cats. :-) It would be nice for everyone on the group to list what they have to trade or sale for all to peruse. Maybe this doesn't work as well in practice as I'd like to believe. brian On Sat, Oct 17, 2009 at 2:37 PM, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > Ebay has been getting more and more annoying and less and less useful as it > "matures" and "grows" Sometimes it seems more worthwhile to do old newsgroup > manually run auctions. > > > Curt > > > > > Brian Lanning wrote: > >> I had a bid on a laser 128 computer, working complete with power supply. >> It >> had been listed in the past for too high a price. This time, the pirce >> was >> reasonable though so I bid. There was a second one with a matching >> external >> floppy also. I was hoping to make an offer on all of it at the end of the >> auction. Yesterday, the items disappeared. I guess the seller pulled the >> items. I wish there were a more sane place to trade this stuff. I guess >> I >> have just have to wait for somoene to give up another storage facility. >> lol thanks for putting up with my venting. >> >> >> > From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Oct 17 15:05:28 2009 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2009 14:05:28 -0600 Subject: annoying ebay behavior In-Reply-To: <6dbe3c380910171246r59b2fc41mf8c20298c4fc0ec9@mail.gmail.com> References: <6dbe3c380910171048i3ff34c9i7d0e1cf5e6476ee3@mail.gmail.com> <4ADA1D0D.8040500@atarimuseum.com> <6dbe3c380910171246r59b2fc41mf8c20298c4fc0ec9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4ADA2388.3020206@jetnet.ab.ca> Brian Lanning wrote: > I know we've talked in the past about a centralized place to trade > computers, but it never seems to happen. I guess it's like herding cats. > :-) It would be nice for everyone on the group to list what they have to > trade or sale for all to peruse. Maybe this doesn't work as well in > practice as I'd like to believe. > > brian How many cats are in herd? I suspect the real issue is very few classic computers are sold unless it is "Need to clear house/must be gone by 6 pm tonight" sale. I wish people knowing they must clear stock give at least a month notice. Ben. From teoz at neo.rr.com Sat Oct 17 15:14:10 2009 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2009 16:14:10 -0400 Subject: annoying ebay behavior References: <6dbe3c380910171048i3ff34c9i7d0e1cf5e6476ee3@mail.gmail.com> <4ADA1D0D.8040500@atarimuseum.com><6dbe3c380910171246r59b2fc41mf8c20298c4fc0ec9@mail.gmail.com> <4ADA2388.3020206@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <95617EB7FA4D48F8B33D1F360468738E@dell8300> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ben" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Saturday, October 17, 2009 4:05 PM Subject: Re: annoying ebay behavior > Brian Lanning wrote: > How many cats are in herd? > I suspect the real issue is very few classic computers are sold > unless it is "Need to clear house/must be gone by 6 pm tonight" > sale. I wish people knowing they must clear stock give at least > a month notice. > Ben. If they had a month they would just ebay the stuff anyway. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Oct 17 15:19:20 2009 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2009 14:19:20 -0600 Subject: annoying ebay behavior In-Reply-To: <95617EB7FA4D48F8B33D1F360468738E@dell8300> References: <6dbe3c380910171048i3ff34c9i7d0e1cf5e6476ee3@mail.gmail.com> <4ADA1D0D.8040500@atarimuseum.com><6dbe3c380910171246r59b2fc41mf8c20298c4fc0ec9@mail.gmail.com> <4ADA2388.3020206@jetnet.ab.ca> <95617EB7FA4D48F8B33D1F360468738E@dell8300> Message-ID: <4ADA26C8.2030402@jetnet.ab.ca> Teo Zenios wrote: >> sale. I wish people knowing they must clear stock give at least >> a month notice. >> Ben. > > If they had a month they would just ebay the stuff anyway. I suspect not, most of the sales I have seen are 'pick up only'. Ebay means you have to ship the product. From trixter at oldskool.org Sat Oct 17 15:35:30 2009 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2009 15:35:30 -0500 Subject: annoying ebay behavior In-Reply-To: <6dbe3c380910171246r59b2fc41mf8c20298c4fc0ec9@mail.gmail.com> References: <6dbe3c380910171048i3ff34c9i7d0e1cf5e6476ee3@mail.gmail.com> <4ADA1D0D.8040500@atarimuseum.com> <6dbe3c380910171246r59b2fc41mf8c20298c4fc0ec9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4ADA2A92.2020608@oldskool.org> Brian Lanning wrote: > I know we've talked in the past about a centralized place to trade > computers, but it never seems to happen. I guess it's like herding cats. Well, there's always the Vintage Computer and Gaming Marketplace (http://marketplace.vintage-computer.com/) which has grown steadily over the past several years. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From teoz at neo.rr.com Sat Oct 17 15:39:18 2009 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2009 16:39:18 -0400 Subject: annoying ebay behavior References: <6dbe3c380910171048i3ff34c9i7d0e1cf5e6476ee3@mail.gmail.com> <4ADA1D0D.8040500@atarimuseum.com><6dbe3c380910171246r59b2fc41mf8c20298c4fc0ec9@mail.gmail.com> <4ADA2388.3020206@jetnet.ab.ca><95617EB7FA4D48F8B33D1F360468738E@dell8300> <4ADA26C8.2030402@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ben" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Saturday, October 17, 2009 4:19 PM Subject: Re: annoying ebay behavior > Teo Zenios wrote: > >>> sale. I wish people knowing they must clear stock give at least >>> a month notice. >>> Ben. >> >> If they had a month they would just ebay the stuff anyway. > > I suspect not, most of the sales I have seen are 'pick up only'. > Ebay means you have to ship the product. > > > There are a decent amount of pick up only auctions on ebay, I have even won one a year or so ago. Things might have changed since ebay wants everything to be paypal only and sellers would have a problem proving something was picked up compared to shipped with a tracking number. From curt at atarimuseum.com Sat Oct 17 18:31:32 2009 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2009 19:31:32 -0400 Subject: Amiga 1000 Hard Drives... In-Reply-To: References: <6dbe3c380910171048i3ff34c9i7d0e1cf5e6476ee3@mail.gmail.com> <4ADA1D0D.8040500@atarimuseum.com><6dbe3c380910171246r59b2fc41mf8c20298c4fc0ec9@mail.gmail.com> <4ADA2388.3020206@jetnet.ab.ca><95617EB7FA4D48F8B33D1F360468738E@dell8300> <4ADA26C8.2030402@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4ADA53D4.8040305@atarimuseum.com> Yeah yeah, I know.... What does an Atari guy need with an Amiga HD. I have a ton of Lynx developer disks, all in Amiga format that I need to read and I have an Amiga 1000, so to make things easier I'd like to add a Hard Drive onto it for doing the OS load up, using the Cloanto tools and transfer those disks over to my PC. Now for a guy who 20 years ago used to get involved in the numerous Atari vs. Amiga battles, I find it interesting that there are more hard disk interfaces for the ST's then you can count, yet for the life of me, I can't seem to clearly find any Amiga 1000 hard drive interfaces with the exception of the Pheonix motherboard replacement. Anyone on the list who's an Amiga fan know exactly where I can find a hard disk solution for the Amiga (commercial or homebrew) that is still actively and easily available. Curt From tosteve at yahoo.com Sat Oct 17 19:03:50 2009 From: tosteve at yahoo.com (steven stengel) Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2009 17:03:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Amiga 1000 Hard Drives... In-Reply-To: <4ADA53D4.8040305@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <468607.53103.qm@web110613.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Good luck! You might be better off borrowing, or sending the disks to someone with an Amiga 2000 (or greater) - they almost always have hard drives. With CrossDOS, they can copy the data to IBM floppy disks. Please define "a ton"... --- On Sat, 10/17/09, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > From: Curt @ Atari Museum > Subject: Amiga 1000 Hard Drives... > To: "On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Date: Saturday, October 17, 2009, 4:31 PM > Yeah yeah, I know....? What does > an Atari guy need with an Amiga HD.? ? I have a > ton of Lynx developer disks, all in Amiga format that I need > to read and I have an Amiga 1000, so to make things easier > I'd like to add a Hard Drive onto it for doing the OS load > up, using the Cloanto tools and transfer those disks over to > my PC. > > Now for a guy who 20 years ago used to get involved in the > numerous Atari vs. Amiga battles, I find it interesting that > there are more hard disk interfaces for the ST's then you > can count, yet for the life of me, I can't seem to clearly > find any Amiga 1000 hard drive interfaces with the exception > of the Pheonix motherboard > replacement.???Anyone on the list who's an > Amiga fan know exactly where I can find a hard disk solution > for the Amiga (commercial or homebrew) that is still > actively and easily available. > > > Curt > > > From joachim.thiemann at gmail.com Sat Oct 17 19:19:16 2009 From: joachim.thiemann at gmail.com (Joachim Thiemann) Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2009 20:19:16 -0400 Subject: Amiga 1000 Hard Drives... In-Reply-To: <4ADA53D4.8040305@atarimuseum.com> References: <6dbe3c380910171048i3ff34c9i7d0e1cf5e6476ee3@mail.gmail.com> <4ADA1D0D.8040500@atarimuseum.com> <6dbe3c380910171246r59b2fc41mf8c20298c4fc0ec9@mail.gmail.com> <4ADA2388.3020206@jetnet.ab.ca> <95617EB7FA4D48F8B33D1F360468738E@dell8300> <4ADA26C8.2030402@jetnet.ab.ca> <4ADA53D4.8040305@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <4affc5e0910171719n7cf13d51yccec79e62371aa25@mail.gmail.com> Heh, coincidentally, I'm about to bring my Amiga 1060 Sidecar over to Dave Dunfield; back in the day, I used that as a HD interface; any hard disk that the PC can see can also be used by the Amiga. For a plain A1000 I think that is the "simplest" method. My A1060 is unfortunately not doing too well after all these years. And I still have to get the data off the MFM drive and its Xebec controller. There is also a simple schematic for a nonbooting A500-to-IDE interface around (basically a bunch of buffers on the address and data bus) that could be adapted easily for the 1000, Google A500ide. Or find a friendly neighborhood owner of an Amiga 2000+SCSI card, A3000, or better with a ZIP drive; that has become my favourite way of transferring data :-) Joe. On Sat, Oct 17, 2009 at 19:31, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > Yeah yeah, I know.... ?What does an Atari guy need with an Amiga HD. ? ?I > have a ton of Lynx developer disks, all in Amiga format that I need to read > and I have an Amiga 1000, so to make things easier I'd like to add a Hard > Drive onto it for doing the OS load up, using the Cloanto tools and transfer > those disks over to my PC. > > Now for a guy who 20 years ago used to get involved in the numerous Atari > vs. Amiga battles, I find it interesting that there are more hard disk > interfaces for the ST's then you can count, yet for the life of me, I can't > seem to clearly find any Amiga 1000 hard drive interfaces with the exception > of the Pheonix motherboard replacement. ? Anyone on the list who's an Amiga > fan know exactly where I can find a hard disk solution for the Amiga > (commercial or homebrew) that is still actively and easily available. > > > Curt > > > -- Joachim Thiemann :: http://www.tsp.ece.mcgill.ca/~jthiem From curt at atarimuseum.com Sat Oct 17 19:28:08 2009 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2009 20:28:08 -0400 Subject: Amiga 1000 Hard Drives... In-Reply-To: <468607.53103.qm@web110613.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <468607.53103.qm@web110613.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4ADA6118.1030406@atarimuseum.com> Yeah, sounding more and more like I should just pick up an A2000 with a HD controller installed... Thanks. Curt steven stengel wrote: > Good luck! You might be better off borrowing, or sending the disks to someone with an Amiga 2000 (or greater) - they almost always have hard drives. With CrossDOS, they can copy the data to IBM floppy disks. Please define "a ton"... > > > > --- On Sat, 10/17/09, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > > >> From: Curt @ Atari Museum >> Subject: Amiga 1000 Hard Drives... >> To: "On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" >> Date: Saturday, October 17, 2009, 4:31 PM >> Yeah yeah, I know.... What does >> an Atari guy need with an Amiga HD. I have a >> ton of Lynx developer disks, all in Amiga format that I need >> to read and I have an Amiga 1000, so to make things easier >> I'd like to add a Hard Drive onto it for doing the OS load >> up, using the Cloanto tools and transfer those disks over to >> my PC. >> >> Now for a guy who 20 years ago used to get involved in the >> numerous Atari vs. Amiga battles, I find it interesting that >> there are more hard disk interfaces for the ST's then you >> can count, yet for the life of me, I can't seem to clearly >> find any Amiga 1000 hard drive interfaces with the exception >> of the Pheonix motherboard >> replacement. Anyone on the list who's an >> Amiga fan know exactly where I can find a hard disk solution >> for the Amiga (commercial or homebrew) that is still >> actively and easily available. >> >> >> Curt >> >> >> >> > > > > > From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Sat Oct 17 19:57:07 2009 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2009 00:57:07 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Amiga 1000 Hard Drives... In-Reply-To: <4ADA53D4.8040305@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <687633.16282.qm@web23403.mail.ird.yahoo.com> well, for me I have Amiga 600's. I just got an 2.5" (or is that 3.5"?) laptop harddrive and plugged it in with the appropriate cable. I got mine from Amiga Deals (.co.uk) and they had already done the necessary formatting. They gave me the necessary cable to plug it in, along with a simple to follow instructions. I believe they had OS2 already installed on it too... can't be 100% sure as that was over 7 years ago now. I'm not particularly clued up on other Amiga models, so I suggest having a look around on the following sites: www.amigadeals.co.uk www.amigakit.com www.amiga.org (may find articles relating to your problem) I'm sure there are others, but those are the ones that come to my mind right now. Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk --- On Sun, 18/10/09, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: From: Curt @ Atari Museum Subject: Amiga 1000 Hard Drives... To: "On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Date: Sunday, 18 October, 2009, 12:31 AM Yeah yeah, I know....? What does an Atari guy need with an Amiga HD.? ? I have a ton of Lynx developer disks, all in Amiga format that I need to read and I have an Amiga 1000, so to make things easier I'd like to add a Hard Drive onto it for doing the OS load up, using the Cloanto tools and transfer those disks over to my PC. Now for a guy who 20 years ago used to get involved in the numerous Atari vs. Amiga battles, I find it interesting that there are more hard disk interfaces for the ST's then you can count, yet for the life of me, I can't seem to clearly find any Amiga 1000 hard drive interfaces with the exception of the Pheonix motherboard replacement.???Anyone on the list who's an Amiga fan know exactly where I can find a hard disk solution for the Amiga (commercial or homebrew) that is still actively and easily available. Curt From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Sun Oct 18 07:54:02 2009 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2009 14:54:02 +0200 Subject: looking for TU81(plus) UNIBUS interface module M8739 Message-ID: Hi all, I recently picked up a TU81plus. It came with all cables, but the UNIBUS interface (M8739) was missing. The TU81 successfully passes diagnostic test 01. I would like to connect the TU81 to my VAX-11/750, and remove the (not connected) Kennedy 9610. I know ... the Kennedy is capable of more densities (800, 1600, 3200, and 6250) and is smaller (a lot). But the TU81 is original DEC ... So, does anybody have the M8739 module spare? May be we can trade something, else there is PayPal ... thanks, - Henk www.pdp-11.nl From spectre at floodgap.com Sun Oct 18 10:24:13 2009 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2009 08:24:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OrangePCi 3.4.2 drivers Message-ID: <200910181524.n9IFOE87011914@floodgap.com> Anyone out there have the 3.4.2 drivers for the OrangePCi card? This is a WinChip-type PC-on-a-card for classic Macs. Orange Micro seems defunct and all the echo chamber download sites simply point to it. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- BOND THEME NOW PLAYING: "Die Another Day" ---------------------------------- From spectre at floodgap.com Sun Oct 18 10:47:11 2009 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2009 08:47:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OrangePCi 3.4.2 drivers In-Reply-To: <200910181524.n9IFOE87011914@floodgap.com> from Cameron Kaiser at "Oct 18, 9 08:24:13 am" Message-ID: <200910181547.n9IFlBEN016920@floodgap.com> > Anyone out there have the 3.4.2 drivers for the OrangePCi card? This is a > WinChip-type PC-on-a-card for classic Macs. Orange Micro seems defunct and > all the echo chamber download sites simply point to it. That was fast. Thank you to those who replied! For others looking, http://homepage.mac.com/olivers/Down/OrangePCi.sit -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- In memory of Howard Caine -------------------------------------------------- From lynchaj at yahoo.com Sun Oct 18 13:23:00 2009 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2009 14:23:00 -0400 Subject: N8VEM VDU board Message-ID: <45FC2566CAA3458997A822FD449471E8@andrewdesktop> Hi! I just finished building and testing the new N8VEM VDU board PCB version. It is a 6545 based video board for monochrome character display on your home brew computer much like a KayPro 10 display. It works OK and provides a composite video display, PS/2 keyboard, PS/2 mouse and a parallel port printer interfaces. It is meant for the N8VEM SBC but the design is general enough it should be useable on most any Z80 style system. If you are interested in building your own and/or writing software for the N8VEM VDU please contact me. When the SBC, ECB backplane, Disk IO board and VDU are combined they offer the potential for a completely stand alone home brew Z80 CP/M computer. The software for the VDU is still in development and it There are pictures and code on the N8VEM wiki in the VDU folder. Schematics and PCB layout are available. I have several PCBs. Constructive comments welcome. Please no flames. Thanks and have a nice day! Andrew Lynch From lynchaj at yahoo.com Sun Oct 18 13:26:36 2009 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2009 14:26:36 -0400 Subject: CRT Controllers Handbook by Gerry Kane Message-ID: Hi! I seem to recall there was a scanned version of the "CRT Controllers Handbook" by Gerry Kane online someplace. Does anyone know if that is true and if so, where? Thanks and have a nice day! Andrew Lynch PS, I already have the print edition but a scanned edition would be very helpful. From lynchaj at yahoo.com Sun Oct 18 13:31:11 2009 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2009 14:31:11 -0400 Subject: CRT Controller Handbook by Gerry Kane Message-ID: <9AB8DFD899244A37AD634D7A7F30EAB4@andrewdesktop> Sorry, that's "Controller" not "Controllers" Hi! I seem to recall there was a scanned version of the "CRT Controller Handbook" by Gerry Kane online someplace. Does anyone know if that is true and if so, where? Thanks and have a nice day! Andrew Lynch PS, I already have the print edition but a scanned edition would be very helpful. From curt at atarimuseum.com Sun Oct 18 13:45:21 2009 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2009 14:45:21 -0400 Subject: CRT Controller Handbook by Gerry Kane In-Reply-To: <9AB8DFD899244A37AD634D7A7F30EAB4@andrewdesktop> References: <9AB8DFD899244A37AD634D7A7F30EAB4@andrewdesktop> Message-ID: <4ADB6241.8000708@atarimuseum.com> Andrew - if you find the link, please share, I would like to read it too. Curt Andrew Lynch wrote: > Sorry, that's "Controller" not "Controllers" > > > > > > > > Hi! I seem to recall there was a scanned version of the "CRT Controller > Handbook" by Gerry Kane online someplace. Does anyone know if that is true > and if so, where? > > Thanks and have a nice day! > > Andrew Lynch > > > > PS, I already have the print edition but a scanned edition would be very > helpful. > > > From jhriley at earthlink.net Sun Oct 18 11:05:51 2009 From: jhriley at earthlink.net (John Riley) Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2009 09:05:51 -0700 Subject: Reverse engineer the MatchPoint PC card? Message-ID: <9193FCA6-DF46-41C8-AC28-1886D0F1C88A@earthlink.net> I am moving ou of some office space I have occupied forty years and have come across a large cache of hard sectored NorthStar CP/M diskettes that I would like to obtain the data from, a daunting task. I have long wished to obtain a MicroSolutions MatchPoint board to try this before my diskettes decompose. Would you consider either selling me your board or loaning it to me for a fee? Inthe latter case I would return it to you with the .286-based computer I would have to build to access it. I am located in Southern California. Are you interested. They are hard to comr by. Sincerely, John Riley Sent from my iPhone From brianlanning at gmail.com Sun Oct 18 18:19:13 2009 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2009 18:19:13 -0500 Subject: Please support the Indivision ECS for brian fund. :-) Message-ID: <6dbe3c380910181619h14d87289rb227a79a39d690d5@mail.gmail.com> I "need" two of these things at $121 a piece. So I figure I'll start ebaying some things to feed my habit. If anyone would like a working amiga 2000 with hard drive or a steel case commodore 128D, let me know. I'd prefer to make a deal with someone on the list than to put up with ebay. I also have three JVC TM-9U 9" studio color monitors with BNCs and RCAs on the back. thanks. brian From robo58 at optonline.net Sun Oct 18 19:33:00 2009 From: robo58 at optonline.net (ROBO5.8) Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2009 20:33:00 -0400 Subject: N8VEM VDU board In-Reply-To: <45FC2566CAA3458997A822FD449471E8@andrewdesktop> References: <45FC2566CAA3458997A822FD449471E8@andrewdesktop> Message-ID: <004d01ca5053$b64b0d40$22e127c0$@net> Hi Andrew, Did you continue your work with the NEC uPD7220 GDC? If so can you tell us where you are with that project? Thanks Robo From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Sun Oct 18 20:04:08 2009 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2009 21:04:08 -0400 Subject: Largest ST-506 (MFM or RLL) type HDD? In-Reply-To: References: <4AD63863.90708@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4ADBBB08.5030705@compsys.to> >Ethan Dicks wrote: >On Wed, Oct 14, 2009 at 4:55 PM, wrote: > > >>The DEC RD54 (Maxtor XT-2190) was 159MB or so. I once had a brace of >>them on a PC. >> >> > >I had a PCs or two with a Micropolis 1325, but I'd already converted >over to Adaptec SCSI controllers and embedded SCSI drives (frequently >surplus/castoffs from a Sun environment) rather than go above about >60MB on MFM/ST412. I didn't get an IDE drive for anything until after >1992 - it was all small MFM and large(er) SCSI for my sub-32-bit >environments. Any "large" disks ended up going on VAXen and PDP-11s. > >The idea of a PC with "a brace" of FH 5.25" drives on it is somewhat >daunting. The closest thing I can imagine to it is a fully-loaded >BA123, and I've never *seen* one of those above two or three spindles. > Starting around 1997, I was using a Pentium 166 MMX with 2 * Hitachi 1.5 GB DK516-15 ESDI FH 5.25" hard drives as my storage devices. They were my C: and D: drives with the D: drive serving ONLY as a backup. I still have a few around which were also used on a BA123 running RT-11 on a PDP-11/83 with a Sigma RQD11-EC ESDI Qbus controller. I stopped using them for the PC around 2002 when I switched to a Pentium III with 3.5 " drives. These were 3 * Maxtor D540X-4X of 40 GB each. Unfortunately, the Maxtor drives failed around 2006 when I switched to 160 GB drives. On the other hand, I still occasionally use the Hitachi DK516-15 ESDI drives on the BA123. It would seem that except for the RD53 drives, all of the old MFM and ESDI drives that I used with a DEC system still work. But the IDE drives, especially the Maxtor drives, lasted only 3 years. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine From snhirsch at gmail.com Sun Oct 18 18:37:05 2009 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2009 19:37:05 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Amiga 1000 Hard Drives... In-Reply-To: <4ADA53D4.8040305@atarimuseum.com> References: <6dbe3c380910171048i3ff34c9i7d0e1cf5e6476ee3@mail.gmail.com> <4ADA1D0D.8040500@atarimuseum.com><6dbe3c380910171246r59b2fc41mf8c20298c4fc0ec9@mail.gmail.com> <4ADA2388.3020206@jetnet.ab.ca><95617EB7FA4D48F8B33D1F360468738E@dell8300> <4ADA26C8.2030402@jetnet.ab.ca> <4ADA53D4.8040305@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 17 Oct 2009, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > Yeah yeah, I know.... What does an Atari guy need with an Amiga HD. I > have a ton of Lynx developer disks, all in Amiga format that I need to read > and I have an Amiga 1000, so to make things easier I'd like to add a Hard > Drive onto it for doing the OS load up, using the Cloanto tools and transfer > those disks over to my PC. In a pinch, you can read them into image files with a catweasel controller. Or, contact me privately and I'd be glad to image them for you. I actually have an Amiga 1000 sidecar hard-drive. Odd gadget. Steve -- From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Oct 19 00:12:26 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2009 01:12:26 -0400 Subject: Amiga 1000 Hard Drives... In-Reply-To: <4ADA53D4.8040305@atarimuseum.com> References: <6dbe3c380910171048i3ff34c9i7d0e1cf5e6476ee3@mail.gmail.com> <4ADA1D0D.8040500@atarimuseum.com> <6dbe3c380910171246r59b2fc41mf8c20298c4fc0ec9@mail.gmail.com> <4ADA2388.3020206@jetnet.ab.ca> <95617EB7FA4D48F8B33D1F360468738E@dell8300> <4ADA26C8.2030402@jetnet.ab.ca> <4ADA53D4.8040305@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: On 10/17/09, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > Yeah yeah, I know.... What does an Atari guy need with an Amiga HD. > I have a ton of Lynx developer disks... Neat. > ...all in Amiga format that I need to > read and I have an Amiga 1000, so to make things easier I'd like to add > a Hard Drive onto it for doing the OS load up, using the Cloanto tools > and transfer those disks over to my PC. If only you had a newer model than the A1000... > Now for a guy who 20 years ago used to get involved in the numerous > Atari vs. Amiga battles, I find it interesting that there are more hard > disk interfaces for the ST's then you can count, yet for the life of me, > I can't seem to clearly find any Amiga 1000 hard drive interfaces with > the exception of the Pheonix motherboard replacement. Anyone on the > list who's an Amiga fan know exactly where I can find a hard disk > solution for the Amiga (commercial or homebrew) that is still actively > and easily available. That last part is the kicker - actively and easily available. Back in the day, there were many A1000 SCSI and "other" interfaces (I have several on the shelf here). While the A1000 was the ascendant model for years, it didn't take too many hardware advances in the other models to really leave the A1000 behind. I held off as long as possible with a Rejuvinator, so that when I finally retired my A1000 (purchased in 1986) from daily use, it had three add-in patches of memory (total of 1MB of CHIP, and 3.5MB of FAST), a clock-calendar, and a SCSI interface. I think once the A3000 came out, most original A1000 owners had multiple Amigas. The A1000 plummeted in resale value, so it was easier to stow it in a closet or give it away - especially if the keyboard was damaged. Also, lots of A1000s were "traded in" for C= deals on newer machines. There were different terms for different deals, but relinquishing the cover of the original owners manual or handing in the keyboard were two of the techniques to prevent double-dipping. Since your stated goal is reading in 880K Amiga floppies, it's probably easier to find a newer Amiga than to find an A1000 hard disk. Some A500 disks will work, though you have to install them facing to the rear. The A590 happens to have room for up to 2MB of RAM as well (using common 256Kx4 DIP chips), and it rarely hurts to have some extra memory. I don't recall if the A590 will physically fit because of case issues, but the interface is pin-for-pin compatible if you can get around any physical interference problems. If you can find an A590, you might as well get an A500 to go with it, unless you happen to have any interesting A1000 peripherals you want to keep. Oh... and in case you have older Kickstart disks for your A1000, version 1.3 is the oldest AmigaOS that can autoboot hard disks. Not sure if you know that already, but it doesn't hurt to mention it just in case. If, as you said later, you can score an A2000, the problem gets simpler. GVP and Amiga A2091s are somewhat common in used A2000s. I still have GG2 Bus+ cards if you wanted to put a network interface into an A2000, but there are cheaper ways of getting bulk data off of your Amiga to another machine (Kermit, for example, or UUCP - I've used both quite often in the past). -ethan From wgungfu at gmail.com Mon Oct 19 00:18:28 2009 From: wgungfu at gmail.com (Martin Goldberg) Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2009 00:18:28 -0500 Subject: Amiga 1000 Hard Drives... In-Reply-To: References: <6dbe3c380910171048i3ff34c9i7d0e1cf5e6476ee3@mail.gmail.com> <4ADA1D0D.8040500@atarimuseum.com> <6dbe3c380910171246r59b2fc41mf8c20298c4fc0ec9@mail.gmail.com> <4ADA2388.3020206@jetnet.ab.ca> <95617EB7FA4D48F8B33D1F360468738E@dell8300> <4ADA26C8.2030402@jetnet.ab.ca> <4ADA53D4.8040305@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <2c768b1e0910182218l7dd76704sb5995ae1b886a0cf@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, Oct 19, 2009 at 12:12 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > I think once the A3000 came out, most original A1000 owners had > multiple Amigas. ?The A1000 plummeted in resale value, so it was > easier to stow it in a closet or give it away - especially if the > keyboard was damaged. > -ethan > On that descriptive note, anyone have an A1000 in good cosmetic shape sitting in their closet that they'd be willing to part with? Already have a 500, 600, 2000, and 4000, I'm looking for a working 1000 for display purposes. Marty From ajp166 at verizon.net Mon Oct 19 08:03:13 2009 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (Allison) Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2009 09:03:13 -0400 Subject: road trip, truck space available In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4ADC6391.8060904@verizon.net> Dave, If you get this and your inthe boston area I have a few bits that someone may want down that way if you want them. Ba123 with boards condition unknown, Ba23 with boards condition unknown La100 RO, looks ok untested. Free, if you can pick them up. Allison Cell 508-828-8259 Dave McGuire wrote: > Folks, > Starting this coming Sunday (10/18), I'm planning to embark on a > road trip in a truck from SW Florida to Poughkeepsie, NY, then to > Boston, then back through the Columbus, OH area. I will have LOTS of > extra room (at least half of a 28' truck) on all legs of this trip. > The truck has a hydraulic lift gate and I have experience moving big, > heavy computer equipment. > > I can be bribed to move big stuff along this route, should that be > of use to anyone. I'm looking to defray the cost of the trip for my > employer, but if it doesn't cost any extra money (i.e., not too far > out of the way and not too time-consuming) I can be bribed with Cool > Stuff too. > > Also, if anyone along that route has any spare DEC H960 racks or > RA60 drives (preferably functional) that they want to unload, I'd > happily take them away. :) > > -Dave > From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Oct 19 12:11:26 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2009 13:11:26 -0400 Subject: Free DEC junk Message-ID: I have a NOS envelope feeder for the DEC LN06 laser printer. Anyone need it shipping (from 10512)? Please reply of list. -- Will From williams.dan at gmail.com Mon Oct 19 12:45:25 2009 From: williams.dan at gmail.com (Dan Williams) Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2009 18:45:25 +0100 Subject: Alphaserver 2100 fails to power up Message-ID: <26c11a640910191045u2c3a61d4me581ae3f694b7a46@mail.gmail.com> I just turned on my Alphaserver 2100 after being powered off for around 6 months. It will not power up at all. I have reseated everything and tried a new PSU. Anyone got any ideas what would stop this machine from powering up ?. The service manual just mentions the door switch which seems ok. Thanks Dan From curt at atarimuseum.com Mon Oct 19 13:09:56 2009 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2009 14:09:56 -0400 Subject: Alphaserver 2100 fails to power up In-Reply-To: <26c11a640910191045u2c3a61d4me581ae3f694b7a46@mail.gmail.com> References: <26c11a640910191045u2c3a61d4me581ae3f694b7a46@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4ADCAB74.5050200@atarimuseum.com> Bah... must be broke, you should just give it to me ;-) Did you do a continuity check on the safety switches??? Dan Williams wrote: > I just turned on my Alphaserver 2100 after being powered off for > around 6 months. It will not power up at all. I have reseated > everything and tried a new PSU. Anyone got any ideas what would stop > this machine from powering up ?. The service manual just mentions the > door switch which seems ok. > > > Thanks > Dan > > From classiccmp at vintage-computer.com Mon Oct 19 16:55:04 2009 From: classiccmp at vintage-computer.com (Erik Klein) Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2009 14:55:04 -0700 Subject: Awesome, clean original Mac on VCGM Message-ID: <3afee7520910191455v17058e31v69908593e2af5627@mail.gmail.com> Someone just posted a really nice original Mac setup on the VCGM with pretty much everything but the box - from the pictures it looks just about perfect. http://marketplace.vintage-computer.com/auction_details.php?auction_id=105288 Not my auction but I thought I'd pass it along. -- Erik Klein www.vintage-computer.com www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum - The Vintage Computer Forums marketplace.vintage-computer.com - The Vintage Computer and Gaming Marketplace From doc at vaxen.net Mon Oct 19 17:52:31 2009 From: doc at vaxen.net (Doc Shipley) Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2009 17:52:31 -0500 Subject: Alphaserver 2100 fails to power up In-Reply-To: <26c11a640910191045u2c3a61d4me581ae3f694b7a46@mail.gmail.com> References: <26c11a640910191045u2c3a61d4me581ae3f694b7a46@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4ADCEDAF.9060809@vaxen.net> Dan Williams wrote: > I just turned on my Alphaserver 2100 after being powered off for > around 6 months. It will not power up at all. I have reseated > everything and tried a new PSU. Anyone got any ideas what would stop > this machine from powering up ?. The service manual just mentions the > door switch which seems ok. ASSuming you're working with a deskside and not a rackmount, the door switch may be the problem. I've had 2 AS2100s fail to power on when the PCB in the LCD/switch panel became loose in its mounts. It's mounted on 4 split pins and the PCB wears and I think the pins lose their spring, so when you close the door it pushes the whole board aside instead of closing the switch. The fix was insanely difficult and technically challenging - I jammed the point of a plastic toothpick into the center of each of the split pins and cut it off flush. :-) Doc From williams.dan at gmail.com Mon Oct 19 18:07:45 2009 From: williams.dan at gmail.com (Dan Williams) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 00:07:45 +0100 Subject: Alphaserver 2100 fails to power up In-Reply-To: <4ADCAB74.5050200@atarimuseum.com> References: <26c11a640910191045u2c3a61d4me581ae3f694b7a46@mail.gmail.com> <4ADCAB74.5050200@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <26c11a640910191607p231fde92pb53ff802c4640f66@mail.gmail.com> >ASSuming you're working with a deskside and not a rackmount, the door switch >may be the problem. I've had 2 AS2100s fail to power on when the PCB in the >LCD/switch panel became loose in its mounts. It's mounted on 4 split pins and the >PCB wears and I think the pins lose their spring, so when you close the door it pushes >the whole board aside instead of closing the switch. >The fix was insanely difficult and technically challenging - I jammed the point of a >plastic toothpick into the center of each of the split pins and cut it off flush. :-) 2009/10/19 Curt @ Atari Museum : > Bah... ? must be broke, you should just give it to me ;-) > > Did you do a continuity check on the safety switches??? > The safety switch and the power switch are working OK. I'm leaning towards the IO board being faulty. I've now tried another cpu and another memory board I had knocking about. Should the machine start up with nothing in it but the IO board. ie. no CPU, memory, scsi boards etc in the machine ? Thanks Dan From lynchaj at yahoo.com Mon Oct 19 19:46:08 2009 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2009 20:46:08 -0400 Subject: N8VEM VDU board Message-ID: http://classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/2009-October/277991.html N8VEM VDU board ROBO5.8 robo58 at optonline.net Sun Oct 18 19:33:00 CDT 2009 * Previous message: N8VEM VDU board * Next message: CRT Controllers Handbook by Gerry Kane * Messages sorted by: [ date ] [ thread ] [ subject ] [ author ] _____ Hi Andrew, Did you continue your work with the NEC uPD7220 GDC? If so can you tell us where you are with that project? Thanks Robo _____ size=2 width="100%" align=center> * Previous message: N8VEM VDU board * Next message: CRT Controllers Handbook by Gerry Kane * Messages sorted by: [ date ] [ thread ] [ subject ] [ author ] _____ More information about the cctalk mailing list -----REPLY----- Hi Robo! Thanks! I am continuing work on the N8VEM S-100 projects. Currently I am working with some other people on S-100 related projects. I recently made a PCB manufacturing order for a group buy of N8VEM S-100 prototyping boards. With the larger quantity, I was able to reduce the cost per board to $18 down from $25 each originally. The next project is a joint project with another builder to make a different S-100 board (TBA) but not the uPD7220 board. I am still seeking basic information on the uPD7220 GDC and there is very little available. If you know where the uPD7220 User Manual and/or Design Guide are (paper or scanned), I would certainly appreciate some help in getting the information. I have the datasheet and some simple stuff gleaned from the web but that is insufficient information to design a full blown S-100 board from scratch. I am looking for some sample circuits to help with design and prototyping. Dan Roganti has (I think) a copy of the User Manual and is scanning it which should be available eventually. I can tell you with confidence after designing and prototyping the N8VEM VDU board, which was largely based on an already existing design, that video boards are complicated devices. Presently, I am working to build up the S-100 design skill set. Making S-100 boards is quite different than the ECB Eurocard designs I have done for the N8VEM project. Hopefully the third N8VEM S-100 board will be out soon and we can move on to more complex projects. I consider the uPD7220 design probably to be one of the more complicated designs so it will be a later project. I would like to do some simple boards like one each for parallel, serial, SRAM, RTC, etc. Maybe a debug board would be good depending on what is available. Eventually more complicated designs like a CPU board and/or graphics board. Given my skill set, available time, and tools the selection of projects is rather limited. Thanks and have a nice day! Andrew Lynch From tiggerlasv at aim.com Tue Oct 20 01:28:10 2009 From: tiggerlasv at aim.com (tiggerlasv at aim.com) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 02:28:10 -0400 Subject: KSR33 on e-bay. . . Message-ID: <8CC1F65A13D4410-762C-F63A@webmail-d041.sysops.aol.com> Noticed this while perusing - http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=290361284863 I'm suprised that there's not even a bid on it, as of 23:30 PST on Monday. (I am in no way affiliated with this auction.) T From mdavidson1963 at gmail.com Tue Oct 20 01:52:13 2009 From: mdavidson1963 at gmail.com (Mark Davidson) Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2009 23:52:13 -0700 Subject: KSR33 on e-bay. . . In-Reply-To: <8CC1F65A13D4410-762C-F63A@webmail-d041.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CC1F65A13D4410-762C-F63A@webmail-d041.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Oct 19, 2009 at 11:28 PM, wrote: > > Noticed this while perusing - > > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=290361284863 > > I'm suprised that there's not even a bid on it, as of 23:30 PST on Monday. > > (I am in no way affiliated with this auction.) VERY nice, but I'm sure the shipping would turn most people away. I have a local friend who has one of these that I might pick up, and I'm going to have to find or rent a pickup to go get it... it's in a BIG container that weighs a lot. :) Mark From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Mon Oct 19 20:54:52 2009 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2009 22:54:52 -0300 Subject: Tektronix 3001GPX request References: <26c11a640910191045u2c3a61d4me581ae3f694b7a46@mail.gmail.com> <4ADCEDAF.9060809@vaxen.net> Message-ID: <06be01ca5128$70fd7180$0301a8c0@Alexandre> Hi there, just changed my e-mail address :) Maybe someone can help here :oD I got a Tek 3001GPX logic analyzer. It came bare, without pods, software or manuals. Maybe someone has an equal and may DD the boot/software disks for me? Also, I'm in need of the following items, if the price is right (in order of need): - Boot/software/diagnostic disks - At least ONE pod, so I can copy it and make it work. Or the schematics of the pod - The Hard disk interface - preferably IDE, since it will be very hard to find a st412/st506 unit here in Brazil - Original manuals (they are beautiful :D) - Any interesting add-ons :oD Thanks Alexandre Souza, PU1BZZ From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Tue Oct 20 02:56:28 2009 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 00:56:28 -0700 Subject: I/O chip for Bally Astrocade? Message-ID: <4ADD6D2C.7040607@mail.msu.edu> Ok, so it's stretching the definition of "computer" but it _does_ have a BASIC programming cartridge and it IS classic (1978) so I think it qualifies... Got me a Bally Astrocade that appears to have a dead I/O chip. From the service manual, this is a custom chip listed as PN "0066-117XX-XXYX"... I figure it's a long shot, but anyone out there have spare parts for these? I figure if anyone knows, they're on this list :). Thanks as always, Josh From ragooman at comcast.net Tue Oct 20 05:57:57 2009 From: ragooman at comcast.net (Dan Roganti) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 06:57:57 -0400 Subject: I/O chip for Bally Astrocade? In-Reply-To: <4ADD6D2C.7040607@mail.msu.edu> References: <4ADD6D2C.7040607@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <4ADD97B5.3030305@comcast.net> Josh Dersch wrote: > Ok, so it's stretching the definition of "computer" but it _does_ have > a BASIC programming cartridge and it IS classic (1978) so I think it > qualifies... Got me a Bally Astrocade that appears to have a dead I/O > chip. From the service manual, this is a custom chip listed as PN > "0066-117XX-XXYX"... I figure it's a long shot, but anyone out there > have spare parts for these? I figure if anyone knows, they're on this > list :). > check the part number on the chip itself, not the manual Sometimes it might have a OEM part# --Motorola did that often back then-- so it still can be a common component. =Dan From ats at offog.org Tue Oct 20 06:02:22 2009 From: ats at offog.org (Adam Sampson) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 12:02:22 +0100 Subject: Tektronix 3001GPX request In-Reply-To: <06be01ca5128$70fd7180$0301a8c0@Alexandre> (Alexandre Souza's message of "Mon, 19 Oct 2009 22:54:52 -0300") References: <26c11a640910191045u2c3a61d4me581ae3f694b7a46@mail.gmail.com> <4ADCEDAF.9060809@vaxen.net> <06be01ca5128$70fd7180$0301a8c0@Alexandre> Message-ID: "Alexandre Souza - Listas" writes: > I got a Tek 3001GPX logic analyzer. You may do better to try the TekScopes list: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/TekScopes/ (Despite what the description says, they discuss other Tektronix gear there too.) -- Adam Sampson From dkelvey at hotmail.com Tue Oct 20 08:58:22 2009 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 06:58:22 -0700 Subject: KSR33 on e-bay. . . In-Reply-To: References: <8CC1F65A13D4410-762C-F63A@webmail-d041.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Hi The base can be easily disassebled. I also recommend removing the motor and packaging it separate. The rest will nicely go in some popcorn. Once done it ships quite easily. Dwight ---------------------------------------- > Date: Mon=2C 19 Oct 2009 23:52:13 -0700 > Subject: Re: KSR33 on e-bay. . . > From: mdavidson1963 at gmail.com > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > On Mon=2C Oct 19=2C 2009 at 11:28 PM=2C wrote: >> >> Noticed this while perusing - >> >> >> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3D290361284863 >> >> I'm suprised that there's not even a bid on it=2C as of 23:30 PST on Mon= day. >> >> (I am in no way affiliated with this auction.) > > VERY nice=2C but I'm sure the shipping would turn most people away. I > have a local friend who has one of these that I might pick up=2C and I'm > going to have to find or rent a pickup to go get it... it's in a BIG > container that weighs a lot. :) > > Mark =20 _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail: Trusted email with Microsoft=92s powerful SPAM protection. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/177141664/direct/01/= From legalize at xmission.com Tue Oct 20 12:30:00 2009 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 11:30:00 -0600 Subject: KSR33 on e-bay. . . In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 20 Oct 2009 06:58:22 -0700. Message-ID: In article , dwight elvey writes: > The base can be easily disassebled. I also recommend > removing the motor and packaging it separate. The rest > will nicely go in some popcorn. > Once done it ships quite easily. > Dwight As I understand it, there's a special shipping bolt that has to be inserted for proper shipment. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Oct 20 13:00:36 2009 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 11:00:36 -0700 Subject: KSR33 on e-bay. . . In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4ADDFAC4.9040701@bitsavers.org> > The rest >> will nicely go in some popcorn. NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO! From legalize at xmission.com Tue Oct 20 13:18:50 2009 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 12:18:50 -0600 Subject: KSR33 on e-bay. . . In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 20 Oct 2009 11:00:36 -0700. <4ADDFAC4.9040701@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: In article <4ADDFAC4.9040701 at bitsavers.org>, Al Kossow writes: > > The rest > >> will nicely go in some popcorn. > > NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO! Yeah, I agree with Al on that one. Its in Portland; have Craters & Freighters pick it up and properly ship it by freight, unless you want it to arrive as a pile of smashed plastic and metal. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From mtapley at swri.edu Tue Oct 20 14:07:50 2009 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 14:07:50 -0500 Subject: Alphaserver 2100 fails to power up In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 12:00 -0500 10/20/09, Doc replied to Dan: >Dan Williams wrote: >> I just turned on my Alphaserver 2100 after being powered off for >> around 6 months. It will not power up at all. I have reseated >> everything and tried a new PSU. Anyone got any ideas what would stop >> this machine from powering up ?. The service manual just mentions the >> door switch which seems ok. > > ASSuming you're working with a deskside and not a rackmount, the door >switch may be the problem. I've had 2 AS2100s fail to power on when the >PCB in the LCD/switch panel became loose in its mounts. It's mounted on >4 split pins and the PCB wears and I think the pins lose their spring, >so when you close the door it pushes the whole board aside instead of >closing the switch. > > The fix was insanely difficult and technically challenging - I jammed >the point of a plastic toothpick into the center of each of the split >pins and cut it off flush. :-) > > > Doc Dan, I also have an AS2100 4/275 deskside, I think. If there are useful tests that won't toast my machine, I can try to dig it out and run them for you if it'll help. Mine also hasn't been on in many moons, though, and I have not had a chance to get familiar with it at all. :-( . I assume you have access to all the documentation you want? -- - Mark 210-379-4635 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Large Asteroids headed toward planets inhabited by beings that don't have technology adequate to stop them: Think of it as Evolution in Fast-Forward. From quapla at xs4all.nl Tue Oct 20 14:31:28 2009 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (Ed Groenenberg) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 21:31:28 +0200 Subject: Tcpware tapes Message-ID: <7d510482a465d94532ea5e3e070f1064.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Hi All, I found 3 tapes, 2 are containing TCPWARE for OpenVMS v4.0-5 on TK-50's and a TK-50 containing 'ScriptServer printing system' V3.2-8 from GayMatter. Anybody interested in them? -- Certified : VCP 3.x, SCSI 3.x SCSA S10, SCNA S10 From sellam at vintagetech.com Tue Oct 20 14:38:55 2009 From: sellam at vintagetech.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 12:38:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: NeXT pile for sale (Oakland, California, USA) Message-ID: My good friend Robert Arnold has a very nice pile of NeXT stuff, including several complete cube systems with keyboards, mice, laser printer, scanner, etc. Photos available here: http://siconic.com/crap/rax/ Located in Oakland, California. Terms are pick-up only. I would imagine Robert MIGHT be willing to ship this if you ply him with enough money, but it would have to be a compelling amount (as in an amount that would be required to hire someone else to do it professionally). He simply does not want to hassle with shipping. The entire lot is for sale for $1,500. I think that's a pretty screaming bargain considering all that is there. He would also consider a partial trade for a recent vintage Macintosh notebook or desktop. More information below. Please contact Robert directly if you are interested. Reply-to: Robert Arnold -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2009 15:17:12 -0700 From: Robert Arnold To: sellam at vintagetech.com Subject: NeXT Photos Hi Sam - This is prolly more photos than you need, but I wanted to show everything that is there. I'd like to get $1500 for everything - or will take a recent MacBook, iMac, or MacMini in part trade. [ these are captions for the photos Robert sent me - SI ] There's one more monitor in a carton Two cubes, keyboards, speaker box, CD drive, cables Two more cubes, two keyboards Two more keyboards (one Kanji) Scanner, more keyboards HD case with drive, software disks Manuals More manuals Cables, mousies -- -- Website: http://www.warbaby.com (Long overdue for an update. One of these days...) -- "Hope has two beautiful daughters: their names are anger and courage. Anger that things are the way they are. Courage to make them the way they ought to be." - St Augustine From williams.dan at gmail.com Tue Oct 20 17:39:32 2009 From: williams.dan at gmail.com (Dan Williams) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 23:39:32 +0100 Subject: Alphaserver 2100 fails to power up In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <26c11a640910201539y5915dc0er275435d67e0b332e@mail.gmail.com> 2009/10/20 Mark Tapley : > At 12:00 -0500 10/20/09, Doc replied to Dan: >> >> Dan Williams wrote: >>> >>> ?I just turned on my Alphaserver 2100 after being powered off for >>> ?around 6 months. It will not power up at all. I have reseated >>> ?everything and tried a new PSU. Anyone got any ideas what would stop >>> ?this machine from powering up ?. The service manual just mentions the >>> ?door switch which seems ok. >> >> ? ASSuming you're working with a deskside and not a rackmount, the door >> switch may be the problem. ?I've had 2 AS2100s fail to power on when the >> PCB in the LCD/switch panel became loose in its mounts. ?It's mounted on >> 4 split pins and the PCB wears and I think the pins lose their spring, >> so when you close the door it pushes the whole board aside instead of >> closing the switch. >> >> ? The fix was insanely difficult and technically challenging - I jammed >> the point of a plastic toothpick into the center of each of the split >> pins and cut it off flush. ?:-) >> >> >> ? ? ? ?Doc > > Dan, > ? ? ? ?I also have an AS2100 4/275 deskside, I think. If there are useful > tests that won't toast my machine, I can try to dig it out and run them for > you if it'll help. Mine also hasn't been on in many moons, though, and I > have not had a chance to get familiar with it at all. :-( . > ? ? ? ?I assume you have access to all the documentation you want? > -- > ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?- Mark ? ? 210-379-4635 > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Large Asteroids headed toward planets > inhabited by beings that don't have > technology adequate to stop them: > > ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?Think of it as Evolution in Fast-Forward. > If you have time it would be great to know if the machine will start up with all the boards pulled except the i/o. It would narrow down diagnostics. Dan From snhirsch at gmail.com Tue Oct 20 06:47:39 2009 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 07:47:39 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Pickup in Piscataway, NJ? Message-ID: Is anyone coming north through Piscataway, NJ who'd be willing to pickup a small disk drive subsystem for me and transport it closer to Burlington, VT? I could pick it up around Thanksgiving if it ended up between VT and NYC. TIA! Steve -- From pinball at telus.net Tue Oct 20 13:03:16 2009 From: pinball at telus.net (John Robertson) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 11:03:16 -0700 Subject: I/O chip for Bally Astrocade? In-Reply-To: <4ADD6D2C.7040607@mail.msu.edu> References: <4ADD6D2C.7040607@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <4ADDFB64.5030203@telus.net> Josh Dersch wrote: > Ok, so it's stretching the definition of "computer" but it _does_ have > a BASIC programming cartridge and it IS classic (1978) so I think it > qualifies... Got me a Bally Astrocade that appears to have a dead I/O > chip. From the service manual, this is a custom chip listed as PN > "0066-117XX-XXYX"... I figure it's a long shot, but anyone out there > have spare parts for these? I figure if anyone knows, they're on this > list :). > > Thanks as always, > Josh > > If the CPU is a Z80, then the I/O is likely to be a 8255, if the CPU is a 68XX then the I/O is likely a 6821, and if the CPU is a 6502, then the I/O is likely either a 6520, 6821, or 6532. Check how the power pins to it compare to those common I/O chips of the day. John :-#)# From richardlynch3 at tx.rr.com Tue Oct 20 20:26:15 2009 From: richardlynch3 at tx.rr.com (Richard Lynch) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 20:26:15 -0500 Subject: HP1000 A900 available Message-ID: I was recently given an HP1000 A900 which I don?t have time to do anything with, so if someone wants it for the cost of shipping (it's big and heavy!), contact me offline. It has a CPU and 2 memory cards as well as several I/O cards (12005, 12009, 12040). It powers up and LEDs on the CPU card blink but I have no way to test it further. Richard From mdavidson1963 at gmail.com Wed Oct 21 02:35:37 2009 From: mdavidson1963 at gmail.com (mdavidson1963 at gmail.com) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2009 00:35:37 -0700 Subject: HP1000 A900 available In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4adeb9a2.06a0100a.6262.ffffbc4a@mx.google.com> I am sure people that are interested would like to know where you are located... I know I would. ;) -- Sent from my Palm Pr? Richard Lynch wrote: I was recently given an HP1000 A900 which I don?t have time to do anything with, so if someone wants it for the cost of shipping (it's big and heavy!), contact me offline. It has a CPU and 2 memory cards as well as several I/O cards (12005, 12009, 12040). It powers up and LEDs on the CPU card blink but I have no way to test it further. Richard From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Wed Oct 21 02:13:44 2009 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2009 00:13:44 -0700 Subject: I/O chip for Bally Astrocade? In-Reply-To: <4ADDFB64.5030203@telus.net> References: <4ADD6D2C.7040607@mail.msu.edu> <4ADDFB64.5030203@telus.net> Message-ID: <4ADEB4A8.6090609@mail.msu.edu> John Robertson wrote: > Josh Dersch wrote: >> Ok, so it's stretching the definition of "computer" but it _does_ >> have a BASIC programming cartridge and it IS classic (1978) so I >> think it qualifies... Got me a Bally Astrocade that appears to have >> a dead I/O chip. From the service manual, this is a custom chip >> listed as PN "0066-117XX-XXYX"... I figure it's a long shot, but >> anyone out there have spare parts for these? I figure if anyone >> knows, they're on this list :). >> > If the CPU is a Z80, then the I/O is likely to be a 8255, if the CPU > is a 68XX then the I/O is likely a 6821, and if the CPU is a 6502, > then the I/O is likely either a 6520, 6821, or 6532. Check how the > power pins to it compare to those common I/O chips of the day. > Thanks. The Astrocade's Z80-based. The I/O chip does not look like an 8255 based on the pinouts. (Plus, it's got inputs for analog joystick stuff as well.) The schematic calls out several chips as "Custom" along with the more standard parts (like the CPU and various bits of TTL glue) so I'm guessing the I/O chip is not an off-the-shelf part. (Alas.) I guess I'll just have to keep my eyes open for spares... Thanks, Josh > John :-#)# > > From pete at dunnington.plus.com Wed Oct 21 06:28:43 2009 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2009 12:28:43 +0100 Subject: listing paper Message-ID: <4ADEF06B.1090001@dunnington.plus.com> I've just found three boxes of what we used to call "broadlisting" paper, ie 14.5" wide fanfold listing paper, music-ruled. Each box is 2000 sheets. All is free to a good home or homes, providing it is picked up from here within a week or so. I'm in York, UK. Any takers? -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From dan at ekoan.com Wed Oct 21 06:57:50 2009 From: dan at ekoan.com (Dan Veeneman) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2009 11:57:50 +0000 Subject: HP1000 A900 available In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4ADEF73E.8080607@ekoan.com> Hi Richard, I am interested -- I'm located in Maryland. Whereabouts are you? Regards, Dan Richard Lynch wrote: > I was recently given an HP1000 A900 which I don?t have time to do anything > with, so if someone wants it for the cost of shipping (it's big and heavy!), > contact me offline. It has a CPU and 2 memory cards as well as several I/O > cards (12005, 12009, 12040). It powers up and LEDs on the CPU card blink > but I have no way to test it further. > Richard > > From evan at snarc.net Wed Oct 21 09:05:02 2009 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2009 10:05:02 -0400 Subject: Pickup in Piscataway, NJ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4ADF150E.9090906@snarc.net> I'm meeting with that guy soon. He's in our neck of the woods. Happy to pick up the drive for you and then ship it. Email me off-list. --------------------------------------------- > Is anyone coming north through Piscataway, NJ who'd be willing to > pickup a small disk drive subsystem for me and transport it closer to > Burlington, VT? I could pick it up around Thanksgiving if it ended up > between VT and NYC. > > TIA! > > Steve > > From dkelvey at hotmail.com Wed Oct 21 09:23:51 2009 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2009 07:23:51 -0700 Subject: KSR33 on e-bay. . . In-Reply-To: <4ADDFAC4.9040701@bitsavers.org> References: Message-ID: <4ADDFAC4.9040701 at bitsavers.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Hi Al I know this doesn't sound good but with the motor removed the thing is quite a bit lighter and can float nicely in popcorn. I did forget about the screw to tie it down. With the motor mounted=2C it will not float and will quickly work its way to the edge of the box. It should be wrapped and sealed in plastic wrap and to keep the popcorn out of the insides. Dwight ---------------------------------------- > Date: Tue=2C 20 Oct 2009 11:00:36 -0700 > From: aek at bitsavers.org > To: > Subject: Re: KSR33 on e-bay. . . > > >> The rest >>> will nicely go in some popcorn. > > NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO! > > =20 _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail: Free=2C trusted and rich email service. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/171222984/direct/01/= From sellam at vintagetech.com Wed Oct 21 12:20:52 2009 From: sellam at vintagetech.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2009 10:20:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Data General Eclipse MV/9000U available in Hayward, California Message-ID: There is a Data General Eclipse MV/9000-U CPU (and cabinet/power supply if you want that) available in Hayward, California. Further model information is "G11202-G7". I don't know much about this. Photos here: http://siconic.com/crap/hayward/ Someone apparently dropped it since I last saw it. Don't know what damage has occured, but at least the photos give you a general idea of the size. My guess is if you want this you'll just want the CPU. It's in there...somewhere. Contact me directly if interested. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From sellam at vintagetech.com Wed Oct 21 12:25:41 2009 From: sellam at vintagetech.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2009 10:25:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Non-Linear Systems Kaypro II available in Hayward, California Message-ID: There is a very nice condition (excellent cosmetic/physical) Kaypro II (branded Non-Linear Systems, so it's early) available in Hayward, California. I've turned it on and booted it up and it seems to work just fine. The video is nice and crisp. It's a really nice Kaypro II, with minor wear. I believe it is missing one of the keys on the numeric keypad, but otherwise is complete. While it is not mine, I am selling it for the owner. Please contact me directly with an offer if you're interested. Will ship to anywhere. The same model sold earlier in the year at the ACCRC auction for a $151 high bid, FYI. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From mtapley at swri.edu Wed Oct 21 12:38:19 2009 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2009 12:38:19 -0500 Subject: Alphaserver 2100 fails to power up In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 12:00 -0500 10/21/09, Dan wrote: >If you have time it would be great to know if the machine will start >up with all the boards pulled except the i/o. It would narrow down >diagnostics. > >Dan Will try, subject to 1) I think I won't be able to get to it until Friday, and 2) not if anyone thinks that might cause problems with my machine. I'll let you know as soon as I can! -- - Mark 210-379-4635 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Large Asteroids headed toward planets inhabited by beings that don't have technology adequate to stop them: Think of it as Evolution in Fast-Forward. From curt at atarimuseum.com Wed Oct 21 12:57:52 2009 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2009 13:57:52 -0400 Subject: Data General Eclipse MV/9000U available in Hayward, California In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4ADF4BA0.9030505@atarimuseum.com> Sellam - I like how you have the photo's filed under "crap" on your server :-) Nice systems though... I like that Alphamicro! Sellam Ismail wrote: > There is a Data General Eclipse MV/9000-U CPU (and cabinet/power supply if > you want that) available in Hayward, California. Further model > information is "G11202-G7". > > I don't know much about this. > > Photos here: > > http://siconic.com/crap/hayward/ > > Someone apparently dropped it since I last saw it. Don't know what damage > has occured, but at least the photos give you a general idea of the size. > My guess is if you want this you'll just want the CPU. It's in > there...somewhere. > > Contact me directly if interested. > > From evan at snarc.net Wed Oct 21 13:04:15 2009 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2009 14:04:15 -0400 Subject: KSR33 on e-bay. . . In-Reply-To: References: <8CC1F65A13D4410-762C-F63A@webmail-d041.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <4ADF4D1F.7060203@snarc.net> >>> The base can be easily disassebled. I managed to fit one of these in a Miata. Put the legs upside-down in the passenger seat, and the teletype itself in the trunk. Trunk is 5.1 cubic feet .... there was room for the machine's width and length but I had to bungee the trunk closed and empty out everything else. From lehmann at ans-netz.de Wed Oct 21 13:22:50 2009 From: lehmann at ans-netz.de (Oliver Lehmann) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2009 20:22:50 +0200 Subject: KSR33 on e-bay. . . In-Reply-To: <4ADF4D1F.7060203@snarc.net> References: <8CC1F65A13D4410-762C-F63A@webmail-d041.sysops.aol.com> <4ADF4D1F.7060203@snarc.net> Message-ID: <20091021202250.0fa3bd8c.lehmann@ans-netz.de> Evan Koblentz wrote: > >>> The base can be easily disassebled. > > I managed to fit one of these in a Miata. *lol* - didn't knew that there exists a car named "Miata". When I read Miata I thought you where talking about the Alpha Workstation shown here: http://www.marlow.dk/site.php/tech/alpha-all/simple And then I wondered how the KSR33 would fit into this.... ;) -- Oliver Lehmann http://www.pofo.de/ http://wishlist.ans-netz.de/ From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Oct 21 15:14:43 2009 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2009 13:14:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Data General Eclipse MV/9000U available in Hayward, California In-Reply-To: <4ADF4BA0.9030505@atarimuseum.com> from "Curt @ Atari Museum" at "Oct 21, 9 01:57:52 pm" Message-ID: <200910212014.n9LKEhIJ019008@floodgap.com> > Sellam - I like how you have the photo's filed under "crap" on your > server :-) > > Nice systems though... I like that Alphamicro! It's a beautiful AM-3000. Those are 50MHz '030s. Zippy and lots of expandability; the problem is finding the cards. :-/ -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- smit happens. -------------------------------------------------------------- From innfoclassics at gmail.com Wed Oct 21 16:05:13 2009 From: innfoclassics at gmail.com (Paxton Hoag) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2009 14:05:13 -0700 Subject: KSR33 on e-bay. . . In-Reply-To: <20091021202250.0fa3bd8c.lehmann@ans-netz.de> References: <8CC1F65A13D4410-762C-F63A@webmail-d041.sysops.aol.com> <4ADF4D1F.7060203@snarc.net> <20091021202250.0fa3bd8c.lehmann@ans-netz.de> Message-ID: If anyone wants an alternative packer I have shipped these out of Portland and could get it to you unscathed. I can pack for either a pallet or in pieces boxed. Please contact me off list if interested. I am a retired secondary market computer dealer. Paxton Astoria Oregon -- Paxton Hoag Astoria, OR USA From williams.dan at gmail.com Wed Oct 21 16:33:41 2009 From: williams.dan at gmail.com (Dan Williams) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2009 22:33:41 +0100 Subject: Alphaserver 2100 fails to power up In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <26c11a640910211433n2fb40591t5b8a1aedf9b65ef2@mail.gmail.com> 2009/10/21 Mark Tapley : > At 12:00 -0500 10/21/09, Dan wrote: >> >> If you have time it would be great to know if the machine will start >> up with all the boards pulled except the i/o. It would narrow down >> diagnostics. >> >> Dan > > Will try, subject to 1) I think I won't be able to get to it until Friday, > and 2) not if anyone thinks that might cause problems with my machine. I'll > let you know as soon as I can! > -- > ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?- Mark ? ? 210-379-4635 > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Large Asteroids headed toward planets > inhabited by beings that don't have > technology adequate to stop them: > > ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?Think of it as Evolution in Fast-Forward. > Thanks, that would be great. Dan From rogpugh at mac.com Thu Oct 22 14:11:26 2009 From: rogpugh at mac.com (Roger Pugh) Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2009 20:11:26 +0100 Subject: Sinclair ZX80 on Ebay Message-ID: Cough cough.. Whoever thought a ZX80 would sell for so much.. ?1560 290360191414 is the auction number Very nice, but at what cost!! From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Thu Oct 22 14:20:19 2009 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2009 16:20:19 -0300 Subject: Sinclair ZX80 on Ebay References: Message-ID: <053401ca534c$de709320$0301a8c0@Alexandre> >Cough cough.. >Whoever thought a ZX80 would sell for so much.. ?1560 >290360191414 is the auction number >Very nice, but at what cost!!= He is nuts. Period. From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Oct 22 14:25:10 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2009 15:25:10 -0400 Subject: Sinclair ZX80 on Ebay In-Reply-To: <053401ca534c$de709320$0301a8c0@Alexandre> References: <053401ca534c$de709320$0301a8c0@Alexandre> Message-ID: <8ca02a75620bbdfe2228b889835104d9.squirrel@mail.neurotica.com> On Thu, October 22, 2009 3:20 pm, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >>Cough cough.. >>Whoever thought a ZX80 would sell for so much.. ?1560 >>290360191414 is the auction number >>Very nice, but at what cost!!= > > He is nuts. Period. Ahh, at least I know this is still classiccmp. ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From caveguy at sbcglobal.net Thu Oct 22 14:36:40 2009 From: caveguy at sbcglobal.net (Bob Bradlee) Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2009 15:36:40 -0400 Subject: Sinclair ZX80 on Ebay In-Reply-To: <053401ca534c$de709320$0301a8c0@Alexandre> Message-ID: <111892.54531.qm@smtp111.sbc.mail.re2.yahoo.com> On Thu, 22 Oct 2009 16:20:19 -0300, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >>Cough cough.. >>Whoever thought a ZX80 would sell for so much.. ?1560 >>290360191414 is the auction number >>Very nice, but at what cost!!= > He is nuts. Period. If the 0 feedback winer is rejected Bidder6 will get it for GBP 875.00 one bidding over the second high Bidder9 at GBP 850.00 A third Bidder1 offered GBP 800.00 You say "He is nuts. Period." its more like "They are nuts !" The other Bob From rogpugh at mac.com Thu Oct 22 14:37:21 2009 From: rogpugh at mac.com (Roger Pugh) Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2009 20:37:21 +0100 Subject: Sinclair ZX80 on Ebay In-Reply-To: <053401ca534c$de709320$0301a8c0@Alexandre> References: <053401ca534c$de709320$0301a8c0@Alexandre> Message-ID: On 22 Oct 2009, at 20:20, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >> Cough cough.. >> Whoever thought a ZX80 would sell for so much.. ?1560 >> 290360191414 is the auction number >> Very nice, but at what cost!!= > > He is nuts. Period. So what else would 1500 quid or 2000 bucks for our colonial friends buy in our hobby these days? about one hundred ZX81's ? Rog From caveguy at sbcglobal.net Thu Oct 22 14:50:56 2009 From: caveguy at sbcglobal.net (Bob Bradlee) Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2009 15:50:56 -0400 Subject: Sinclair ZX80 on Ebay In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <224179.95451.qm@smtp109.sbc.mail.re2.yahoo.com> On Thu, 22 Oct 2009 20:37:21 +0100, Roger Pugh wrote: >So what else would 1500 quid or 2000 bucks for our colonial friends At todays exchange rate that is closer to $2500 ... Even at the GPB 850.00 range it is close to $1500 still a nice IMSI or Altar Bob From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Thu Oct 22 14:51:07 2009 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2009 16:51:07 -0300 Subject: Sinclair ZX80 on Ebay References: <053401ca534c$de709320$0301a8c0@Alexandre> Message-ID: <057e01ca5351$13facb60$0301a8c0@Alexandre> >So what else would 1500 quid or 2000 bucks for our colonial friends buy in >our hobby these days? >about one hundred ZX81's ? In Brazil? An entire collection of brazilian exotic computers, hehehehe :o) From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Thu Oct 22 15:54:53 2009 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2009 17:54:53 -0300 Subject: Sinclair ZX80 on Ebay References: <224179.95451.qm@smtp109.sbc.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <058301ca5359$f1418c40$0301a8c0@Alexandre> >>So what else would 1500 quid or 2000 bucks for our colonial friends > At todays exchange rate that is closer to $2500 ... > Even at the GPB 850.00 range it is close to $1500 still a nice IMSI or > Altar I don't think it is "fair". Of course, "fair" is what someone wish to spend. It is his money, not mine. But I think it is a crazy thing. Whatever :oP From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Oct 22 16:11:08 2009 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2009 15:11:08 -0600 Subject: Sinclair ZX80 on Ebay In-Reply-To: References: <053401ca534c$de709320$0301a8c0@Alexandre> Message-ID: <4AE0CA6C.1040904@jetnet.ab.ca> Roger Pugh wrote: > > On 22 Oct 2009, at 20:20, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > >>> Cough cough.. >>> Whoever thought a ZX80 would sell for so much.. ?1560 >>> 290360191414 is the auction number >>> Very nice, but at what cost!!= >> >> He is nuts. Period. > > So what else would 1500 quid or 2000 bucks for our colonial friends buy > in our hobby these days? > > about one hundred ZX81's ? The price of door stops has gone up I see. > > Rog If you import, a nice valve amp for about 2K from china. A pair of speakers from the US. Ok, back on topic $1500 sounds like price of a nice CP/M system about 1985. From afra at aurigae.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 22 17:34:56 2009 From: afra at aurigae.demon.co.uk (Phill Harvey-Smith) Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2009 23:34:56 +0100 Subject: Sinclair ZX80 on Ebay In-Reply-To: <053401ca534c$de709320$0301a8c0@Alexandre> References: <053401ca534c$de709320$0301a8c0@Alexandre> Message-ID: <4AE0DE10.50706@aurigae.demon.co.uk> Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >> Cough cough.. >> Whoever thought a ZX80 would sell for so much.. ?1560 >> 290360191414 is the auction number >> Very nice, but at what cost!!= > > He is nuts. Period. Indeed, the ironic thing is of course that most of those components are worth not that much at all as the ZX80 is pretty much LSTTL, standard RAM, CPU etc. I guess the board and case is rarer though, even so I think about 70,000 ish ZX80s where made so it's actually not that rare at all, though I guess unbuilt ones are not that common. One of the things I do have is a bare Jupiter Ace board, which I believe only cost my wife ?100ish last cristmass, and they are cirtainly rarer. Now if it had been a working Dragon Beta prototype......... For those not in the know, only 3 where ever built, and only one is known to still be working. Cheers, Phill. -- Phill Harvey-Smith, Programmer, Hardware hacker, and general eccentric ! "You can twist perceptions, but reality won't budge" -- Rush. From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Fri Oct 23 00:18:54 2009 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2009 02:18:54 -0300 Subject: Tek keyboard request References: <053401ca534c$de709320$0301a8c0@Alexandre> <4AE0DE10.50706@aurigae.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <08a501ca53a0$57e727c0$0301a8c0@Alexandre> Greetings from Brazil :o) Maybe someone has a spare keyboard like the one from this auction: http://cgi.ebay.com/G57849-Tektronix-3001-GPX-Logic-Analyzer-Keyboard_W0QQitemZ330370560044QQcmdZViewItemQQptZBI_Analyzers?hash=item4ceb9eb02c As I said before, I'm looking for parts for the 3001 mainframe from Tektronix. But maybe the keyboard isn't exclusive to this mainframe ;o) who knows? Thanks Alexandre :) From josecvalle at gmail.com Thu Oct 22 07:23:36 2009 From: josecvalle at gmail.com (Jose carlos Valle) Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2009 10:23:36 -0200 Subject: Data General Eclipse MV/9000U available in Hayward, California In-Reply-To: <200910212014.n9LKEhIJ019008@floodgap.com> References: <4ADF4BA0.9030505@atarimuseum.com> <200910212014.n9LKEhIJ019008@floodgap.com> Message-ID: Dear Cameron Could you send to Miami, Fl: How much I will spend in freight: by ground: Jose Carlos Valle 2009/10/21 Cameron Kaiser : >> Sellam - I like how you have the photo's filed under "crap" on your >> server :-) >> >> Nice systems though... ? I like that Alphamicro! > > It's a beautiful AM-3000. Those are 50MHz '030s. Zippy and lots of > expandability; the problem is finding the cards. :-/ > > -- > ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- > ?Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com > -- smit happens. -------------------------------------------------------------- > -- Eventos do Museu assistam o video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QADf4ifEroI O Curador no Jornal Nacional. agosto 2009. Assista agora no link abaixo: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RJEIuMcYtzA O Curador na Antena Paulista: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wO_JFfNiGlE Estamos procurando parceiros para salvar o meio ambiente. o E_LIXO. O Projeto de lei acabou se ser aprovada 33.2008. J? temos como parceiros a TV Globo. O Museu do Computador "trabalha com foco de recolher todo o E-lixo da Grande S?o Paulo e depois todo o estado. Vejam nos anexos os folders e as paletras. Indique as palestras para Faculdades, Escolas etc. A proposta ? muito interessante porque envolve entre outros aspectos a preserva??o do meio ambiente. Contate caso necessite maiores informa??es, caso queira doar ou sobre palestras relativas ao tema.Ou levar o Museu para seu evento. participe PS: coloque uma caixa de papel?o na empresa com o nosso folder colado para recolher baterias, pilhas, mouses, mauais, cabos, celulares, micros, revistas etc para os funcion?rios colocarem o que tem em casa nesta caixa. Nos chame quando estiverem cheias. obrigado Museu do Computador www.museudocomputador.com.br Telefone - (11) 4666-7545 Contato: Jos? Carlos Valle ? Curador E-mail: josecvalle at gmail.com / - desde 1998 Informa??es sobre doa??es no Blog: http://blogdocurador.museudocomputador.com.br MAPA DO MUSEU: http://maps.google.com.br/maps/ms?ie=UTF8&hl=pt-BR&msa=0&msid=108193747742585494988.00044509f44d84c574095&ll=-23.688822,-46.854951&spn=0.01012,0.013154&z=16 From hachti at hachti.de Fri Oct 23 06:52:40 2009 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2009 13:52:40 +0200 Subject: TU56 lamp replacement Message-ID: <4AE19908.1010507@hachti.de> Hi folks, I'm currently checking out some TU56 DECTape drives. Stuck motors, burnt electronics, dirt, and other issues usually come my way. And broken indicator lights. Does anybody have experience replacing those bulbs? Originally there are those white plastic blocks that should be replaced as one piece. Nice idea - I have ONE complete replacement and at least 6 to repair. Those blocks are easily opened, fiddling a new lamp inside is easy and no problem. So what I ask you is only for ideas about the right lamps to use. It should look similar to the original lamps (or could be a bit brighter). Some blasphemy to add: If I don't find a quick solution, I'll fit one of the TU56s with crazy colored LEDs. That might be considered a sacrilege by some people, but it's quite reversible and non-destructive. I have LEDs in two RK05 drives, too (They're soldered to their series resistors and plugged in like the original lamps, so everything can be reverted instantly). The read and write indicators are quite more interesting that way (with incandescent lamps you don't even see many accesses!). But at the moment the question is for incandescent lamps. So please share your ideas/experience with me! Best wishes, Philipp :-) From dkelvey at hotmail.com Fri Oct 23 08:55:00 2009 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2009 06:55:00 -0700 Subject: TU56 lamp replacement In-Reply-To: <4AE19908.1010507@hachti.de> References: <4AE19908.1010507@hachti.de> Message-ID: ---------------------------------------- > Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2009 13:52:40 +0200 > From: hachti at hachti.de > To: > Subject: TU56 lamp replacement > > Hi folks, > > I'm currently checking out some TU56 DECTape drives. Stuck motors, burnt > electronics, dirt, and other issues usually come my way. > > And broken indicator lights. Does anybody have experience replacing > those bulbs? Originally there are those white plastic blocks that ---snip--- Hi Measure one in operation. Check both the current and the voltage. Don't just measure the ohms when off. Lamps ( At least modern lamps ) tend to be constant current like and won't give you accurate reading when off. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Windows 7: It helps you do more. Explore Windows 7. http://www.microsoft.com/Windows/windows-7/default.aspx?ocid=PID24727::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WWL_WIN_evergreen3:102009 From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Oct 23 10:49:19 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2009 11:49:19 -0400 Subject: Sinclair ZX80 on Ebay In-Reply-To: <4AE0CA6C.1040904@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <053401ca534c$de709320$0301a8c0@Alexandre> <4AE0CA6C.1040904@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <3AFD8C05-19DA-456A-B4FD-609B280DE9E0@neurotica.com> On Oct 22, 2009, at 5:11 PM, Ben wrote: >>>> Cough cough.. >>>> Whoever thought a ZX80 would sell for so much.. ?1560 >>>> 290360191414 is the auction number >>>> Very nice, but at what cost!!= >>> >>> He is nuts. Period. >> So what else would 1500 quid or 2000 bucks for our colonial >> friends buy in our hobby these days? >> about one hundred ZX81's ? > > The price of door stops has gone up I see. You're on this list for what reason, exactly? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Oct 23 10:51:28 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2009 11:51:28 -0400 Subject: Sinclair ZX80 on Ebay In-Reply-To: <4AE0DE10.50706@aurigae.demon.co.uk> References: <053401ca534c$de709320$0301a8c0@Alexandre> <4AE0DE10.50706@aurigae.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: On Oct 22, 2009, at 6:34 PM, Phill Harvey-Smith wrote: > Indeed, the ironic thing is of course that most of those components > are worth not that much at all as the ZX80 is pretty much LSTTL, > standard RAM, CPU etc. The same can be said for most 1970s minicomputers. And what about all those cheap transistors in a Straight-8? Wow I guess one of those is only worth about twenty bucks. > I guess the board and case is rarer though, even so I think about > 70,000 ish ZX80s where made so it's actually not that rare at all, > though I guess unbuilt ones are not that common. ZX80s are approximately as rare as hens' teeth. Go try to find one. I have. Perhaps you're thinking of ZX81s. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From dholland at woh.rr.com Fri Oct 23 11:17:55 2009 From: dholland at woh.rr.com (David Holland) Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2009 12:17:55 -0400 Subject: Sinclair ZX80 on Ebay In-Reply-To: <053401ca534c$de709320$0301a8c0@Alexandre> References: <053401ca534c$de709320$0301a8c0@Alexandre> Message-ID: <1256314675.10046.4.camel@crusader.localdomain.home> On Thu, 2009-10-22 at 16:20 -0300, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > >Cough cough.. > >Whoever thought a ZX80 would sell for so much.. ?1560 > >290360191414 is the auction number > >Very nice, but at what cost!!= > > He is nuts. Period. > I think the appeal is its an _un-assembled_ kit, complete w/ documentation, and packaging. I wouldn't think un-assembled kits would be all that commonly available. (?) Its more than I'd certainly want to pay, though obviously, if the un-assembled kits that commonly available, I'll offer 20$ to someone for one. :-) David From afra at aurigae.demon.co.uk Fri Oct 23 11:30:12 2009 From: afra at aurigae.demon.co.uk (Phill Harvey-Smith) Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2009 17:30:12 +0100 Subject: Sinclair ZX80 on Ebay In-Reply-To: References: <053401ca534c$de709320$0301a8c0@Alexandre> <4AE0DE10.50706@aurigae.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <4AE1DA14.5090401@aurigae.demon.co.uk> Dave McGuire wrote: > On Oct 22, 2009, at 6:34 PM, Phill Harvey-Smith wrote: >> Indeed, the ironic thing is of course that most of those components >> are worth not that much at all as the ZX80 is pretty much LSTTL, >> standard RAM, CPU etc. > > The same can be said for most 1970s minicomputers. And what about all > those cheap transistors in a Straight-8? Wow I guess one of those is > only worth about twenty bucks. Not having any minicomputer experience I can't comment on this. >> I guess the board and case is rarer though, even so I think about >> 70,000 ish ZX80s where made so it's actually not that rare at all, >> though I guess unbuilt ones are not that common. > > ZX80s are approximately as rare as hens' teeth. Go try to find one. Well there are currently 3 ZX80s for sale on ebay.co.uk and it's not that often that there is not at least one up for sale. > I have. Perhaps you're thinking of ZX81s. Nope I have a ZX80 and a couple of 81s (including an unbuilt kit one). Though since, from your siggy you are in the US, they probably are much less common over there, I dunno if Sinclair ever sold them outside the UK, I know that he had a deal with Timex for the ZX81. Cheers. Phill. -- Phill Harvey-Smith, Programmer, Hardware hacker, and general eccentric ! "You can twist perceptions, but reality won't budge" -- Rush. From vrs at msn.com Fri Oct 23 11:40:36 2009 From: vrs at msn.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2009 09:40:36 -0700 Subject: TU56 lamp replacement References: <4AE19908.1010507@hachti.de> Message-ID: > And broken indicator lights. Does anybody have experience replacing > those bulbs? Originally there are those white plastic blocks that > should be replaced as one piece. Nice idea - I have ONE complete > replacement and at least 6 to repair. That prompted an interesting line of research. Those are apparently DEC part number 12-09637, which in turn is a "Line-o-Lite" 3590A20. Here's a picture of one, but they are sold out: http://www.surplusshed.com/pages/item/m2255.html http://www.surplusshed.com/photo.cfm?ID=M2255_1 They are a 12V indicator assembly made by Industrial Devices, Inc. I haven't found a supplier for them yet. Looks like the newer rectangular indicators are all smaller. > Those blocks are easily opened, fiddling a new > lamp inside is easy and no problem. So what I ask you is only for ideas > about the right lamps to use. It should look similar to the original > lamps (or could be a bit brighter). Since the series resistor is 15 ohms, 1/4 watt, we can infer a maximum current of about 100ma for the bulb. More than that would run the resistor way too hot. I'd probably look for something in the 12-15V range with a 60ma or less current draw (<=1W), and the desired brightness. Vince From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Fri Oct 23 11:41:27 2009 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2009 18:41:27 +0200 Subject: TU56 lamp replacement In-Reply-To: <4AE19908.1010507@hachti.de> References: <4AE19908.1010507@hachti.de> Message-ID: <20091023184127.9db5191b.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Fri, 23 Oct 2009 13:52:40 +0200 Philipp Hachtmann wrote: > Some blasphemy to add: > If I don't find a quick solution, I'll fit one of the TU56s with crazy > colored LEDs. That might be considered a sacrilege by some people, but > it's quite reversible and non-destructive. This would be a sacrilege only if your aim is a 100% original restoration. If you just want to _repair_ a machine to get it back to live, hell, LEDs are perfect. I have no problem if modern replacements are used in old machines when original replacement parts are unavailable. I have no problems with new parts even when they are simply used to "enhance" old machines. (E.g. SMPSU instead a linear regulator or newer disk drives to save power.) E.g. I have fited SGI Indogos with ATX PSUs. The original PSUs die like flies and are a nightmare to repair. Or fans: If a fan fails, would you really looking for an exact replacement? Most likely you will replace it with a generic fan, as long as voltage and air throughput match. Same for indicator lamps. They are generic components that emit light. I don't care if they are LED or incandescent lamps, as long as they do the job. -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From cclist at sydex.com Fri Oct 23 11:54:39 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2009 09:54:39 -0700 Subject: Sinclair ZX80 on Ebay In-Reply-To: <4AE1DA14.5090401@aurigae.demon.co.uk> References: , , <4AE1DA14.5090401@aurigae.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <4AE17D5F.16987.2D75A2@cclist.sydex.com> On 23 Oct 2009 at 17:30, Phill Harvey-Smith wrote: > Though since, from your siggy you are in the US, they probably are > much less common over there, I dunno if Sinclair ever sold them > outside the UK, I know that he had a deal with Timex for the ZX81. They did--I sold a ZX80 to another cctalk-er a couple of years back. It had a standard NTSC output and 60Hz power supply. Why anyone would want a cheap piece of plastic like that is beyond my comprehension. Maybe that's why I'm not a collector. --Chuck From dholland at woh.rr.com Fri Oct 23 12:15:39 2009 From: dholland at woh.rr.com (David Holland) Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2009 13:15:39 -0400 Subject: Sinclair ZX80 on Ebay In-Reply-To: <4AE17D5F.16987.2D75A2@cclist.sydex.com> References: , , <4AE1DA14.5090401@aurigae.demon.co.uk> <4AE17D5F.16987.2D75A2@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <1256318139.10046.6.camel@crusader.localdomain.home> On Fri, 2009-10-23 at 09:54 -0700, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 23 Oct 2009 at 17:30, Phill Harvey-Smith wrote: > > > Though since, from your siggy you are in the US, they probably are > > much less common over there, I dunno if Sinclair ever sold them > > outside the UK, I know that he had a deal with Timex for the ZX81. > > They did--I sold a ZX80 to another cctalk-er a couple of years back. > It had a standard NTSC output and 60Hz power supply. > > Why anyone would want a cheap piece of plastic like that is beyond my > comprehension. Maybe that's why I'm not a collector. Nostalgia. A TS1000 was the very first computer I ever touched. I keep mine in a box. And threaten my 12yr old, and wife with with replacing their computer with it every now and then. :-) David > > --Chuck > From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Oct 23 12:19:34 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2009 13:19:34 -0400 Subject: TU56 lamp replacement In-Reply-To: References: <4AE19908.1010507@hachti.de> Message-ID: On Fri, Oct 23, 2009 at 12:40 PM, Vincent Slyngstad wrote: >> And broken indicator lights. Does anybody have experience replacing those >> bulbs? Originally there are those white plastic blocks that should be >> replaced as one piece. > > That prompted an interesting line of research. ?Those are apparently DEC > part number 12-09637, which in turn is a "Line-o-Lite" 3590A20. > Here's a picture of one, but they are sold out: > http://www.surplusshed.com/pages/item/m2255.html > http://www.surplusshed.com/photo.cfm?ID=M2255_1 Nice find; shame they are sold out. I'd buy 10 in a heartbeat at those prices (I have more than one drive to keep happy). I myself will probably go the route of an LED replacement, but it's always good to know what the incandescent options are. Thanks, Vince! -ethan From rogpugh at mac.com Fri Oct 23 12:48:24 2009 From: rogpugh at mac.com (Roger Pugh) Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2009 18:48:24 +0100 Subject: Sinclair ZX80 on Ebay In-Reply-To: <1256318139.10046.6.camel@crusader.localdomain.home> References: <4AE1DA14.5090401@aurigae.demon.co.uk> <4AE17D5F.16987.2D75A2@cclist.sydex.com> <1256318139.10046.6.camel@crusader.localdomain.home> Message-ID: I think the silly thing is, this ZX80 is only ever going to be a collectors piece. It will never be used, if it is completed it will lose 90% of its value. the value of the components are a few pounds or dollars and you can get 95% of the experience of ownership by buying a 10 pound/dollar ZX81/TS100 and switching it to FAST mode! I think ZX80's are overpriced at ?50 let alone ?100 and ?1000. I cant see them being that rare! Also i have noticed Sinclair QL bits getting more expensive recently. I'm glad i have way too many of them already! I won a nice HP85 on the same auction site two weeks ago for ?27, bargains are still there to be had! Madness Rog From IanK at vulcan.com Fri Oct 23 13:22:47 2009 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2009 11:22:47 -0700 Subject: Sinclair ZX80 on Ebay In-Reply-To: References: <4AE1DA14.5090401@aurigae.demon.co.uk> <4AE17D5F.16987.2D75A2@cclist.sydex.com> <1256318139.10046.6.camel@crusader.localdomain.home> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Roger Pugh > Sent: Friday, October 23, 2009 10:48 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Sinclair ZX80 on Ebay > > I think the silly thing is, this ZX80 is only ever going to be a > collectors piece. It will never be used, if it is completed it will > lose 90% of its value. the value of the components are a few pounds > or dollars and you can get 95% of the experience of ownership by > buying a 10 pound/dollar ZX81/TS100 and switching it to FAST mode! > > I think ZX80's are overpriced at ?50 let alone ?100 and ?1000. I cant > see them being that rare! Also i have noticed Sinclair QL bits > getting more expensive recently. I'm glad i have way too many of them > already! > > I won a nice HP85 on the same auction site two weeks ago for ?27, > bargains are still there to be had! > > Madness > > Rog Silly? Is it any sillier than having a 700lb. computer in one's basement, and doing most of one's work on a laptop on the dining room table? (That's me, by the way: my VAX 6660 is a beast. And it's not alone in that basement....) Would I pay that kind of money for a Sinclair ZX80? Uh, no. But I *have* paid that kind of money for other items that are equally as "useless" as computing devices (at least compared to my PowerBook or my dual G4 desktops). Hello, my name is Ian, and I'm a collector. :-) From cclist at sydex.com Fri Oct 23 13:25:10 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2009 11:25:10 -0700 Subject: Sinclair ZX80 on Ebay In-Reply-To: <1256318139.10046.6.camel@crusader.localdomain.home> References: , <4AE17D5F.16987.2D75A2@cclist.sydex.com>, <1256318139.10046.6.camel@crusader.localdomain.home> Message-ID: <4AE19296.29760.805303@cclist.sydex.com> On 23 Oct 2009 at 13:15, David Holland wrote: > Nostalgia. A TS1000 was the very first computer I ever touched. Hmmm, I don't think I could afford to store a 7090, much less operate one. No nostalgia for me... --Chuck From rogpugh at mac.com Fri Oct 23 13:39:03 2009 From: rogpugh at mac.com (Roger Pugh) Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2009 19:39:03 +0100 Subject: Sinclair ZX80 on Ebay In-Reply-To: References: <4AE1DA14.5090401@aurigae.demon.co.uk> <4AE17D5F.16987.2D75A2@cclist.sydex.com> <1256318139.10046.6.camel@crusader.localdomain.home> Message-ID: > But I *have* paid that kind of money for other items that are > equally as "useless" as computing devices (at least compared to my > PowerBook or my dual G4 desktops). > > Hello, my name is Ian, and I'm a collector. :-) So HP-85's cant run Windows 7 ?? Damm! ;-) From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Oct 23 13:51:40 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2009 14:51:40 -0400 Subject: Sinclair ZX80 on Ebay In-Reply-To: References: <4AE1DA14.5090401@aurigae.demon.co.uk> <4AE17D5F.16987.2D75A2@cclist.sydex.com> <1256318139.10046.6.camel@crusader.localdomain.home> Message-ID: On Fri, Oct 23, 2009 at 2:22 PM, Ian King wrote: > Silly? ?Is it any sillier than having a 700lb. computer in one's basement, and doing most of one's work on a laptop on the dining room table? ?(That's me, by the way: my VAX 6660 is a beast. ?And it's not alone in that basement....) Are you using your laptop as a terminal emulator? Then, yes, that's silly ;-) I don't happen to have a 6600, but I know someone (who used to subscribe to the list; not sure if he still does) a mile from me that has a 6xxx in his basement (my largest physical machine would be either an 11/70 or an 11/750, especially if you include expansion cabinets and disk/tape units). > Would I pay that kind of money for a Sinclair ZX80? ?Uh, no. ?But I *have* paid that kind of money for other items that are equally as "useless" as computing devices (at least compared to my PowerBook or my dual G4 desktops). The most expensive computing devices I've purchased over the years were a 32K PET (new in 1978), an Amiga 3000/16 (new in 1991), a VAX-11/725 (used in 1988), and a PDP-8/S (venerable by the time I got it). A few items, like my Amiga 1000 or my first SPARCstation, were under $1000 to originally buy, but were expanded multiple times at a few hundred bucks per notch, so became somewhat expensive to keep current. The only "frivolous" one from that list would be the PDP-8/S. The others were current or semi-current when I got them, and were each in daily use for years. OTOH, the bulk of my DEC machines were free (or nearly free) to me, but if I wanted to replace them these days, the total cost would be prohibitive. Starting over 25 years ago, I was lucky enough to be in the right place at the right time (over and over ;-) to save PDP-8s, PDP-11s and VAXen from the crusher. > Hello, my name is Ian, and I'm a collector. ?:-) *in unison* Hi, Ian! -ethan From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Oct 23 14:07:15 2009 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2009 13:07:15 -0600 Subject: Sinclair ZX80 on Ebay In-Reply-To: References: <053401ca534c$de709320$0301a8c0@Alexandre> <4AE0DE10.50706@aurigae.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <4AE1FEE3.7070702@jetnet.ab.ca> Dave McGuire wrote: > ZX80s are approximately as rare as hens' teeth. Go try to find one. > I have. Perhaps you're thinking of ZX81s. Well I was. Was the difference the fact video stopped when the cpu was not in the idle key press loop? > > -Dave Did not a several years back did they try to re-sell old ZX81's old stock at the same price? ~ $99 US. > -- > Dave McGuire > Port Charlotte, FL > Ben. PS. I only use DEAD ones for door stops. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Oct 23 14:11:18 2009 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2009 13:11:18 -0600 Subject: Sinclair ZX80 on Ebay In-Reply-To: <4AE1FEE3.7070702@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <053401ca534c$de709320$0301a8c0@Alexandre> <4AE0DE10.50706@aurigae.demon.co.uk> <4AE1FEE3.7070702@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4AE1FFD6.8040409@jetnet.ab.ca> Ben wrote: > Dave McGuire wrote: > >> ZX80s are approximately as rare as hens' teeth. Go try to find >> one. I have. Perhaps you're thinking of ZX81s. > > Well I was. Was the difference the fact video stopped when the cpu > was not in the idle key press loop? > >> >> -Dave > > Did not a ^several years back did they try to re-sell old ZX81's old ^ vendor > stock at the same price? ~ $99 US. > >> -- >> Dave McGuire >> Port Charlotte, FL >> > > Ben. > PS. I only use DEAD ones for door stops. > > > > From evan at snarc.net Fri Oct 23 14:41:53 2009 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2009 15:41:53 -0400 Subject: Athena Computer Message-ID: <4AE20701.6090801@snarc.net> There was a company called "Athena Computer and Electronic Systems" based in San Juan Capistrano, California in the early 1980s. The president was David Mitchell. Anyone know where I can find him today? Or does anyone know of other people who worked there? From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Fri Oct 23 23:10:50 2009 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2009 23:10:50 -0500 Subject: Good references for ANSI terminal emulation? Message-ID: <4AE27E4A.1050507@brutman.com> I'm struggling trying to create an accurate telnet client with ANSI emulation. The basic codes are easy enough and well documented, but there are a lot of obscure codes to do things like 'set terminal mode' to 'vertical editing mode' which I can't find good descriptions for. I can't even figure out if a pure ANSI terminal supports wrapping to the next line when you hit the edge of the screen, or if that is controlled by an escape sequence. To further confuse things, a lot of people lump the DEC terminals in with discussions of ANSI terminals, and although they are close they are not the same. DEC extended a lot of things. I've been googling, reading source code, and experimenting. It's slow and painful. Does anybody have a good reference they would recommend? Thanks, Mike From cclist at sydex.com Fri Oct 23 23:55:00 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2009 21:55:00 -0700 Subject: Good references for ANSI terminal emulation? In-Reply-To: <4AE27E4A.1050507@brutman.com> References: <4AE27E4A.1050507@brutman.com> Message-ID: <4AE22634.2760.2C0F491@cclist.sydex.com> On 23 Oct 2009 at 23:10, Michael B. Brutman wrote: > > I'm struggling trying to create an accurate telnet client with ANSI > emulation. The basic codes are easy enough and well documented, but > there are a lot of obscure codes to do things like 'set terminal mode' > to 'vertical editing mode' which I can't find good descriptions for. Do you mean that you want a standard? ECMA-48's a good one: http://www.ecma-international.org/publications/files/ECMA-ST/Ecma- 048.pdf Welcome to the wonderful world of headaches. My memory of the stuff (NAPLPS and Videotex) was that it was harder to interpret the standards than it was to write the code. Good Luck, -Chuck From julianskidmore at yahoo.com Fri Oct 23 19:02:57 2009 From: julianskidmore at yahoo.com (Julian Skidmore) Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2009 17:02:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Sinclair ZX80 on Ebay Message-ID: <164113.3950.qm@web37106.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Hi folks, > Well I was. Was the difference the fact video stopped when the cpu > was not in the idle key press loop? There's quite a few differences between the ZX80 & ZX81. The ZX81 supported 'compute and display' thanks to its more 'advanced' video chip! The ZX81 was (AFAIK) the first use of a gate-array chip in a home computer! The ZX81 had an 8K ROM with floating point arithmetic, 'graphics'; decent string-handling and ZX printer support! The ZX81 syntax-checker was nicer. The ZX81 had a heat-sink that worked! The ZX81 was unbelievably slow! The ZX80 had that certain 'je ne sais quoi' that makes it at least worth 10x more than any ZX81. I'm convinced about this, being the lucky owner of one* ;-) -cheers from Julz @P * It was given to me as well, for which I'm really thankful! From afra at aurigae.demon.co.uk Sat Oct 24 05:12:11 2009 From: afra at aurigae.demon.co.uk (Phill Harvey-Smith) Date: Sat, 24 Oct 2009 11:12:11 +0100 Subject: Sinclair ZX80 on Ebay In-Reply-To: <164113.3950.qm@web37106.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <164113.3950.qm@web37106.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4AE2D2FB.90007@aurigae.demon.co.uk> Julian Skidmore wrote: > Hi folks, > >> Well I was. Was the difference the fact video stopped when the cpu >> was not in the idle key press loop? > > There's quite a few differences between the ZX80 & ZX81. > > The ZX81 supported 'compute and display' thanks to its more 'advanced' > video chip! Though I believe that the hardware of the ZX80 can be modified to support this. > The ZX81 was (AFAIK) the first use of a gate-array chip in a home computer! > > The ZX81 had an 8K ROM with floating point arithmetic, 'graphics'; > decent string-handling and ZX printer support! The 8K rom was available as an upgrade for the ZX80, along with a new keyboard overlay. Also the ZX81 ROM will work if plugged into a ZX80, the converse is also true a ZX80 ROM will work in a ZX81. > The ZX81 was unbelievably slow! Well, the ZX81 has two modes, SLOW and FAST, in SLOW mode it maintains the display as well as running programs, in FAST mode it esentially does the same as the ZX80, it only maintains the display when idle, so runs much faster. > The ZX80 had that certain 'je ne sais quoi' that makes it at least > worth 10x more than any ZX81. I'm convinced about this, being the lucky > owner of one* ;-) Well they are cirtainly less common, and have the advantage of being all standard chips, which means if something breaks you can almost cirtainly repair it. I think the main difference between the two machines is that the ZX81 took all the LSTTL gates of the ZX80 and combined them into a ULA, which brought the chip count and therefore the cost of production down. Cheers. Phill. -- Phill Harvey-Smith, Programmer, Hardware hacker, and general eccentric ! "You can twist perceptions, but reality won't budge" -- Rush. From ats at offog.org Sat Oct 24 07:42:06 2009 From: ats at offog.org (Adam Sampson) Date: Sat, 24 Oct 2009 13:42:06 +0100 Subject: Sinclair ZX80 on Ebay In-Reply-To: <4AE2D2FB.90007@aurigae.demon.co.uk> (Phill Harvey-Smith's message of "Sat, 24 Oct 2009 11:12:11 +0100") References: <164113.3950.qm@web37106.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4AE2D2FB.90007@aurigae.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: Phill Harvey-Smith writes: > Though I believe that the hardware of the ZX80 can be modified to > support this. Yep. Grant Searle's site has an excellent description of how to build your own ZX80 from scratch, and the extra logic to convert a ZX80 into a ZX81: http://home.micros.users.btopenworld.com/ (He's also got homebrew versions of the Jupiter Ace and UK-101, among various other interesting bits.) -- Adam Sampson From legalize at xmission.com Sat Oct 24 07:59:13 2009 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sat, 24 Oct 2009 06:59:13 -0600 Subject: ebay: Q-Bus SCSI adapter Message-ID: There's a Q-bus SCSI adapter on ebay right now starting at $10. Seems like a good price and these are handy for a VAX system so you can use a CD-ROM. item # 360200821918 -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From vrs at msn.com Sat Oct 24 16:19:58 2009 From: vrs at msn.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Sat, 24 Oct 2009 14:19:58 -0700 Subject: TU56 lamp replacement References: <4AE19908.1010507@hachti.de> Message-ID: From: "Ethan Dicks": > On Fri, Oct 23, 2009 at 12:40 PM, Vincent Slyngstad wrote: > > That prompted an interesting line of research. Those are apparently > > DEC part number 12-09637, which in turn is a "Line-o-Lite" 3590A20. > > Here's a picture of one, but they are sold out: > > http://www.surplusshed.com/pages/item/m2255.html > > http://www.surplusshed.com/photo.cfm?ID=M2255_1 > > Nice find; shame they are sold out. I'd buy 10 in a heartbeat at > those prices (I have more than one drive to keep happy). Yeah, me too :-(. > I myself will probably go the route of an LED replacement, but it's > always good to know what the incandescent options are. I also found this: http://www.pdp8.net/tu56/tu56.shtml in which Dave G. describes a successful use of the CM2182 (14V, 80ma) bulb in this application. There don't seem to be many low current bulb choices -- the CM2174 perhaps, but it's only about 1/3 as bright, and only about 1/4 as long-lasting. > Thanks, Vince! No problem! Vince From djg at pdp8.net Sat Oct 24 20:00:30 2009 From: djg at pdp8.net (djg at pdp8.net) Date: Sat, 24 Oct 2009 21:00:30 -0400 Subject: TU56 lamp replacement Message-ID: <200910250100.n9P10US04667@h-68-165-246-86.mclnva23.covad.net> > I also found this: http://www.pdp8.net/tu56/tu56.shtml > in which Dave G. describes a successful use of the CM2182 (14V, > 80ma) bulb in this application. > I just replaced one of them again last week so I had taken a picture of the indicator disassembled. It is now up at http://www.pdp8online.com/tu56/pics/p1000839.shtml?small If your TU56 -15V input is high you may run this bulb above its rated voltage shortening its life. From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sat Oct 24 21:03:33 2009 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sat, 24 Oct 2009 19:03:33 -0700 Subject: TU56 lamp replacement References: <200910250100.n9P10US04667@h-68-165-246-86.mclnva23.covad.net> Message-ID: <4AE3B1F5.D038FC6A@cs.ubc.ca> djg at pdp8.net wrote: > > > I also found this: http://www.pdp8.net/tu56/tu56.shtml > > in which Dave G. describes a successful use of the CM2182 (14V, > > 80ma) bulb in this application. > > > I just replaced one of them again last week so I had taken a picture of > the indicator disassembled. > It is now up at > http://www.pdp8online.com/tu56/pics/p1000839.shtml?small > > If your TU56 -15V input is high you may run this bulb above its rated > voltage shortening its life. Some sizes of those bare-lead grain-of-wheat bulbs are or were used for front-panel backlighting in digital car stereos, generally 12V of course. Places that repair car-stereos may be an adeqaute source, Radio Shack sold some sizes as of a few years ago. From curt at atarimuseum.com Sat Oct 24 21:03:52 2009 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Sat, 24 Oct 2009 22:03:52 -0400 Subject: Anyone near Grove City, PA? Message-ID: <4AE3B208.9020307@atarimuseum.com> Hi, Anyone near Grove City, PA ??? I have a solder rework station out there that needs to be picked up, its about 100lbs or so and I don't want to chance it being shipped. I'm willing to meet off of Route 84 to anyone willing to pick it up and make the trip part (or most) of the way to Carmel, NY (its about a 5+ drive each way and I'm not allowed to drive more then 2 hrs right now because of the heart surgeries I had.) I'm willing to pay anyone for the pickup and delivery, let me know off-list, thank you. Curt From rickb at bensene.com Sat Oct 24 21:59:07 2009 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Sat, 24 Oct 2009 19:59:07 -0700 Subject: PDP 8/e Problem In-Reply-To: <200910250100.n9P10US04667@h-68-165-246-86.mclnva23.covad.net> References: <200910250100.n9P10US04667@h-68-165-246-86.mclnva23.covad.net> Message-ID: Hello, everyone, This weekend I decided to spend some time and fire up my PDP 8/e system. It's been a while, and figured it was overdue for a few hours of runtime. The machine has EAE, 2 8K DEC Core memory units, an 8K solid state memory board (12x8 1K static RAMs) the extended memory/timeshare option, a PC8E paper tape interface with a PC04 reader/punch, an RX8E controller and dual RX01 drives, and (not installed) an RK8E controller (currently busted) with two RK05 drives, and two M8650 serial I/O interfaces. It powered up just fine, and I toggled in a few little test programs. I couldn't get it to talk to the terminal (a Heathkit H19). Then, I tried a test program that runs the punch...it too would not work. Then, I toggled in a little program that uses the OSR (OR Switch Register) instruction, and it too wouldn't work...the accumulator remained untouched by this instruction no matter what the state of the switch register was. I did some other testing, AND and TAD work, as does ISZ, and as many of the group 7 operate instructions that I bothered to test. DCA also works fine, as do JMP and JSR. I could load extended address from the front panel, and address memory beyond 4K with no problems, so at least the extended memory part of the ext. mem./timeshare option was working. I also noted that the HLT instruction doesn't work. So, IOP instructions, OSR, and HLT are on the list of instructions that don't work. It appears that these instructions just act as a No-Op. I tried stripping the system down to just the CPU, EAE, 8K of Core, and the console async. interface, and it still behaves the same. It seems like the instructions that aren't working are those that would be trapped by the timeshare option, but with that board removed from the system, the fact that the behavior didn't change is of concern. Anyone have any ideas what might be going on? Thanks in advance for any help. Rick Bensene From cclist at sydex.com Sat Oct 24 22:20:15 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 24 Oct 2009 20:20:15 -0700 Subject: TU56 lamp replacement In-Reply-To: <4AE3B1F5.D038FC6A@cs.ubc.ca> References: <200910250100.n9P10US04667@h-68-165-246-86.mclnva23.covad.net>, <4AE3B1F5.D038FC6A@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <4AE3617F.13816.26FD868@cclist.sydex.com> On 24 Oct 2009 at 19:03, Brent Hilpert wrote: > Some sizes of those bare-lead grain-of-wheat bulbs are or were used > for front-panel backlighting in digital car stereos, generally 12V of > course. Places that repair car-stereos may be an adeqaute source, > Radio Shack sold some sizes as of a few years ago. Would not a #7220 T-1 wire-lead lamp work in this application? (18volt .026 amp)? --Chuck From djg at pdp8online.com Sat Oct 24 19:06:07 2009 From: djg at pdp8online.com (David Gesswein) Date: Sat, 24 Oct 2009 20:06:07 -0400 Subject: TU56 lamp replacement Message-ID: <200910250006.n9P067S02403@h-68-165-246-86.mclnva23.covad.net> > I also found this: http://www.pdp8.net/tu56/tu56.shtml > in which Dave G. describes a successful use of the CM2182 (14V, > 80ma) bulb in this application. > I just replaced one of them again last week so I had taken a picture of the indicator disassembled. It is now up at http://www.pdp8online.com/tu56/pics/p1000839.shtml?small If your TU56 -15V input is high you may run this bulb above their rated voltage shortening their life. From thrashbarg at kaput.homeunix.org Sun Oct 25 05:38:04 2009 From: thrashbarg at kaput.homeunix.org (Alexis) Date: Sun, 25 Oct 2009 21:08:04 +1030 Subject: Trouble installing system on a Macintosh Quadra 660AV Message-ID: <200910252108.05307.thrashbarg@kaput.homeunix.org> Hi, I've got a Mac Quadra 660AV which refuses to install any system software, except System 7.1, which it refuses to boot from (apparently it needs a newer version, but web pages about the Mac say it should work). I've tried System 7.1, 7.5 through 7.5.3, and Mac OS 7.6. It happens right at the end of the install, when the system is being finalised. I've replaced the battery, cleared the NVRAM, updated the disk driver and set the date. I'm using the original hard drive. Does anyone have any ideas? Alexis. From spectre at floodgap.com Sun Oct 25 11:22:20 2009 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun, 25 Oct 2009 09:22:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Trouble installing system on a Macintosh Quadra 660AV In-Reply-To: <200910252108.05307.thrashbarg@kaput.homeunix.org> from Alexis at "Oct 25, 9 09:08:04 pm" Message-ID: <200910251622.n9PGMKVV011582@floodgap.com> > I've got a Mac Quadra 660AV which refuses to install any system software, > except System 7.1, which it refuses to boot from (apparently it needs a newer > version, but web pages about the Mac say it should work). I've tried System > 7.1, 7.5 through 7.5.3, and Mac OS 7.6. You should be able to get the 660 to boot 7.1 *with the right enabler*. From my notes this should be System Enabler 088, which Apple confirms on http://support.apple.com/kb/SP233 It goes in the System Folder. You might consider booting from a later Disk Tools floppy and copying it in. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Immortality can always be assured by spectacular error. -- J. K. Galbraith - From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Sun Oct 25 13:01:00 2009 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Sun, 25 Oct 2009 13:01:00 -0500 Subject: Good references for ANSI terminal emulation? In-Reply-To: <4AE22634.2760.2C0F491@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4AE27E4A.1050507@brutman.com> <4AE22634.2760.2C0F491@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4AE4925C.8050900@brutman.com> Ok - here is a nice, specific question .. This chart can be found at http://vt100.net/docs/tp83/appendixb.html . It shows the codes generated for the arrow keys. Cursor Key Codes Generated ANSI Character Generated Cursor Reset(Cursor) Set (Application) Up ESC [ A ESC O A Down ESC [ B ESC O B Right ESC [ C ESC O C Left ESC [ D ESC O D There are two columned - one for RESET and one for SET. In my nice simple universe, I press a key and a series of codes gets sent to the host machine. So what does it mean to Reset or Set in this context? I think I want to use the first column, but what does the second column mean? Thanks, Mike From vrs at msn.com Sun Oct 25 13:57:18 2009 From: vrs at msn.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Sun, 25 Oct 2009 11:57:18 -0700 Subject: TU56 lamp replacement References: <200910250100.n9P10US04667@h-68-165-246-86.mclnva23.covad.net>, <4AE3B1F5.D038FC6A@cs.ubc.ca> <4AE3617F.13816.26FD868@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: From: "Chuck Guzis": > Would not a #7220 T-1 wire-lead lamp work in this application? > (18volt .026 amp)? I think that should work fine. The only reservation I'd have about it would be whether it was bright enough. It looks from the spec's to be about half as bright as some of the other bulbs talked about. Vince From cclist at sydex.com Sun Oct 25 15:54:29 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 25 Oct 2009 12:54:29 -0800 Subject: Good references for ANSI terminal emulation? In-Reply-To: <4AE4925C.8050900@brutman.com> References: <4AE27E4A.1050507@brutman.com>, <4AE22634.2760.2C0F491@cclist.sydex.com>, <4AE4925C.8050900@brutman.com> Message-ID: <4AE44A85.2413.E56DD3@cclist.sydex.com> On 25 Oct 2009 at 13:01, Michael B. Brutman wrote: > There are two columned - one for RESET and one for SET. In my nice > simple universe, I press a key and a series of codes gets sent to the > host machine. So what does it mean to Reset or Set in this context? In the the case of the VT100 (which probably is the one you're probably interested in), keypad application mode is entered with esc [?1h (i.e. "set") and exited with esc [?1l (note the lowercase "L"; i.e. "reset") The reason for the names is that in "reset" mode, the cursor keypad generates cursor movement commands. Also note that the keypad may be put into numeric mode with "esc >" . --Chuck From hachti at hachti.de Sun Oct 25 17:35:26 2009 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Sun, 25 Oct 2009 23:35:26 +0100 Subject: TU56 lamp replacement In-Reply-To: <20091023184127.9db5191b.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <4AE19908.1010507@hachti.de> <20091023184127.9db5191b.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <4AE4D2AE.3010903@hachti.de> Hi Jochen, > This would be a sacrilege only if your aim is a 100% original > restoration. If you just want to _repair_ a machine to get it back to > live, hell, LEDs are perfect. I have no problem if modern replacements > are used in old machines when original replacement parts are > unavailable. I have no problems with new parts even when they are > simply used to "enhance" old machines. (E.g. SMPSU instead a linear > regulator or newer disk drives to save power.) I usually deliberately add new parts to old machines to get them going. But I'm reluctant with respect to irreversible upgrading stuff. The LED/incandescent question is in fact a question of taste. And I prefer the incandescent variant in most cases. The TU56 has those huge glowing fields... And I think it would be nicer to have incandescent light there. At least in most of the units... > E.g. I have fited SGI Indogos with ATX PSUs. The original PSUs die like > flies and are a nightmare to repair. That's fine, I find. I fitted a HP7978 tape drive with an AT power supply - just had to solder all the wires to readily available holes in the backplane. And the original PSU (it sometimes did not start) and all possibilities to repair it were kept. > Or fans: If a fan fails, would you really looking for an exact > replacement? Most likely you will replace it with a generic fan, as > long as voltage and air throughput match. Of course! But fans are always generic stuff. > Same for indicator lamps. > They are generic components that emit light. I don't care if they are > LED or incandescent lamps, as long as they do the job. Yes, but they do the job differently. And it's a question of aesthetic value one should keep in mind. Regards, Philipp From hachti at hachti.de Sun Oct 25 18:07:22 2009 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2009 00:07:22 +0100 Subject: pdp8/e frontpanel lamps Message-ID: <4AE4DA2A.1040409@hachti.de> Hi folks, I just read your responses to my TU56 lamp question. That brought the "lamp discussion" back to onto my mind. I have some information to share, perhaps it might help: I recently got a box of original lamps from a retired DEC service engineer. The blue ones (blue seemed to be VERY important as someone also wrote the word "blue" onto the box!). The box is labelled "Oshino Sub-miniature Lamp". Made by Oshino Electric Lamps Works, Ltd, Shinagawa, Tokyo, Japan. The box calls the lamps "OL-2, 10V, 40mA". The part number is 12-09129. The "OL-2" is stamped onto the box along with the ratings. The part number is written by hand - together with the "blue". The lamps carry the part number. (I have another box with lamps for RK05 etc. They have the part number on the box and "OL-1" directly on the lamps.) Now I used google - and Oshino is still around! I found their German website with some part lists. All article numbers start with "OL-". The T1 3/4 sized bi-pin lamp that takes 40mA at 10V is now called "OL-367BP". Perhaps it's just the same. The light output is told to be 0.08 MSCd. The company's logo is the same as on my box and the CEO's name is Takeshi Oshino. So there is a good chance to get the original lamps. I have not yet checked if the lamps I got were the same I find in my machines, but the brightness perfectly matches and they come from DEC. Stored together with little boxes containing new DEC labelled ICs and transistors. That should vouch for them. Best wishes, Philipp :-) From vrs at msn.com Sun Oct 25 18:52:13 2009 From: vrs at msn.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Sun, 25 Oct 2009 16:52:13 -0700 Subject: pdp8/e frontpanel lamps References: <4AE4DA2A.1040409@hachti.de> Message-ID: From: "Philipp Hachtmann": > I recently got a box of original lamps from a retired DEC service > engineer. The blue ones (blue seemed to be VERY important as someone > also wrote the word "blue" onto the box!). Yep, the blue ones work in 8/L, 8E/F/M, and a few others, but not in the older 8/i, etc. > (I have another box with lamps for RK05 etc. They have the part number > on the box and "OL-1" directly on the lamps.) Now *those* are much rarer, and are the correct ones for the 8/i. > Now I used google - and Oshino is still around! I found their German > website with some part lists. All article numbers start with "OL-". Yep, I've written to them before, a few years ago. > The company's logo is the same as on my box and the CEO's name is > Takeshi Oshino. So there is a good chance to get the original lamps. If I am remembering correctly, they seemed to have the usual corporate amnesia about obsolete products and referred me to their US distributor, Wamco. Wouldn't hurt to ask someone else within the company, though. > I have not yet checked if the lamps I got were the same I find in my > machines, but the brightness perfectly matches and they come from DEC. > Stored together with little boxes containing new DEC labelled ICs and > transistors. That should vouch for them. They should be. I have some spare OL-2, but would happily trade a few for OL-1 :-). Vince From hachti at hachti.de Sun Oct 25 19:11:14 2009 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2009 01:11:14 +0100 Subject: pdp8/e frontpanel lamps In-Reply-To: References: <4AE4DA2A.1040409@hachti.de> Message-ID: <4AE4E922.9080809@hachti.de> >> (I have another box with lamps for RK05 etc. They have the part number >> on the box and "OL-1" directly on the lamps.) > > Now *those* are much rarer, and are the correct ones for the 8/i. Are they? Perhaps the PDP-10 uses them in their header panels? If that's the case, I could harvest some from the system in Kiel - it will never run again, and I've been given the advice to harvest lamps by the DEC guy where I got my lamps. In fact he is the man who serviced that particular system. And he gave me the advice while handing me a lamp pulling tool... So if those lamps are really rare and could get into use, I could try to negotiate the harvest. > If I am remembering correctly, they seemed to have the usual corporate > amnesia about obsolete products and referred me to their US distributor, > Wamco. Wouldn't hurt to ask someone else within the company, though. Hm... Did you ask there? > They should be. I have some spare OL-2, but would happily trade a few > for OL-1 :-). Hm. I have 26 OL-1. And 80+ OL-2... Wouldn't it better to find some lamps? I wonder what I used to replace lamps on the pdp8/l - I have completed at least one front panel. Ah, oh, I think I took them from another 8/l that's completely in pieces. So if the 8/i uses the OL-1 lamps, the 8/l probably does as well. In that case I would also be very interested to get some more of those. From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Sun Oct 25 19:12:55 2009 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Sun, 25 Oct 2009 19:12:55 -0500 Subject: Good references for ANSI terminal emulation? In-Reply-To: <4AE44A85.2413.E56DD3@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4AE27E4A.1050507@brutman.com>, <4AE22634.2760.2C0F491@cclist.sydex.com>, <4AE4925C.8050900@brutman.com> <4AE44A85.2413.E56DD3@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4AE4E987.2070802@brutman.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 25 Oct 2009 at 13:01, Michael B. Brutman wrote: > > >> There are two columned - one for RESET and one for SET. In my nice >> simple universe, I press a key and a series of codes gets sent to the >> host machine. So what does it mean to Reset or Set in this context? > > In the the case of the VT100 (which probably is the one you're > probably interested in), keypad application mode is entered with > > esc [?1h (i.e. "set") > > and exited with > > esc [?1l (note the lowercase "L"; i.e. "reset") > > The reason for the names is that in "reset" mode, the cursor keypad > generates cursor movement commands. Also note that the keypad may > be put into numeric mode with "esc >" . > > --Chuck > > > Hi Chuck, Just a little more help because I'm being super thick - what exactly does "keypad application mode mean"? I understand the difference between numeric mode and non-numeric, or I'm assuming that it works the same way it does on PC. But the "application mode" thing is throwing me off because I don't know what it means and can't draw my own analogies. Mike From RichA at vulcan.com Sun Oct 25 19:26:56 2009 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Sun, 25 Oct 2009 17:26:56 -0700 Subject: Kiel PDP-10 [was RE: pdp8/e frontpanel lamps] In-Reply-To: <4AE4E922.9080809@hachti.de> References: <4AE4DA2A.1040409@hachti.de> <4AE4E922.9080809@hachti.de> Message-ID: > From: Philipp Hachtmann > Sent: Sunday, October 25, 2009 5:11 PM >>> (I have another box with lamps for RK05 etc. They have the part number >>> on the box and "OL-1" directly on the lamps.) >> Now *those* are much rarer, and are the correct ones for the 8/i. > Are they? Perhaps the PDP-10 uses them in their header panels? If that's > the case, I could harvest some from the system in Kiel - it will never > run again, WHY NOT??? :-((( If it were in the hands of someone who actually carecd about it, could it be made to run? Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Server Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at livingcomputermuseum.org http://www.pdpplanet.org/ http://www.livingcomputermuseum.org/ From rick at rickmurphy.net Sun Oct 25 19:57:38 2009 From: rick at rickmurphy.net (Rick Murphy) Date: Sun, 25 Oct 2009 20:57:38 -0400 Subject: PDP 8/e Problem In-Reply-To: References: <200910250100.n9P10US04667@h-68-165-246-86.mclnva23.covad.net> Message-ID: <200910260057.n9Q0vZsT003687@rickmurphy.net> At 10:59 PM 10/24/2009, Rick Bensene wrote: >Hello, everyone, > > >I also noted that the HLT instruction doesn't work. So, IOP >instructions, OSR, and HLT are on the list of instructions that don't >work. It appears that these instructions just act as a No-Op. That sounds like the timesharing restrictions being turned on all of the time. I'd try pulling the KM8E and see if the IOTs start working right. If so, the "timeshare enabled" logic is on all of the time. -Rick From wmaddox at pacbell.net Sun Oct 25 20:18:19 2009 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Sun, 25 Oct 2009 18:18:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OL-1 substitute In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <730560.5009.qm@web82605.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Has anyone tried the currently-available CM7370 in an 8/I or RK05? This bulb is suggested as a substitute for the OL-1 on Vince's web page. The suggested substitute for the OL-2, the CM7371, works wonderfully in an 8/E. They are plenty bright, and they will last longer running at undervoltage. An 8/E that I received in working condition arrived with a full complement of CM7371 installed by its previous owner (a machine shop). I suppose the big issue is matching the brighness. You probably don't want to substitute the bulbs piecemeal, and repeatedly unsoldering/soldering soldered-in bulbs is damaging for the circuit board. Best to replace them all at once, or install socket pins (scavenged from machined-pin IC sockets) as found in the 8/E. Some technical information regarding operating incandescent lamps at other than their nominal ratings can be found here: http://www.wamcoinc.com/Oshino/Oshino_lamps-Overview.htm --Bill From hachti at hachti.de Sun Oct 25 20:21:18 2009 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2009 02:21:18 +0100 Subject: Rescued documentation issues Message-ID: <4AE4F98E.5090605@hachti.de> Hello Al, hello everybody! I assume that physical storage capacity limitations are a well known problem to lots of people on this list. I further assume that many of you know situations where they "take everything", "find everything", "buy everything", "rescue everything", or alike. It starts with some information about sitting at the cost of . The variables differ greatly. In many cases you will cry out "Cool! Don't throw anything away! I'll take all of it!". Of course, all available bits and pieces are at least worth a look. But... This posting is about the "unwanted documentation" you often get with stuff you acquire. I would like to start a discussion on this as I don't always know what to do with it. A clean concept could probably help me and others to maximize preservation of valuable historic information with respect to use of individual storage capacities. The following are three example cases from my "collection career": 1. Honeywell H316 I bought the H316 from someone in Switzerland, on eBay. It came quite complete, with all docs. And some vague oral information about the former application. And a lot of binders documenting the original system the machine was used in. Everything specially made for the application (controlling flight monitor displays in an airport). Everything in Italian. And no actual piece of it left. Still have them. 2. pdp8/l rescue, a few years ago I found my three pdp8/l computers rusting in a garage, not far from here. They were part of an "Olympia Multiplex-80" system used in a bank (someone added one of my pictures of one of the machines to the wikipedia article about pdp8). There were two Ampex 7 track tape drives. And some interfaces to the rest of the Multiplex-80 system. And documentation for much of it. The tape drives were gone too far, so I threw them away (no, there was no realistic chance to restore them: It would have been a complete rebuild! They consisted of rust, rust, and rust). The controllers were also gone very far. So I kept only some pieces of those. Documentation for the tape drive and the whole system is still there. 3. Some Honeywell This last example is not finished yet. And it is the reason for writing this posting. Yesterday I drove up to Denmark. There I met a guy who had sitting around some Honeywell and associated gear that he did not want anymore. What I got were two Level 6 computers and an Ampex Megastore solid state disk for the H316. One megabyte of core memory... That alone was enough to take the trip. And there are two large boxes with paper. I looked throug them, most of them seems to be Accuray (the guy and stuff came from there) documentation for some kind of industrial control system (paper mill, I've been told). Tons of Accuray X16 software listings. Some original Honeywell stuff. Accuray documentation for Accuray software. And docs for a hard disk (fixed head?) disk drive that doesn't exist anymore. All in all, the paper directly related to the stuff that dropped in is less than 25% of the lot. I currently have all of it. Some sitting here upstairs, some in the car, and some in the staircase (the house door is open, it's getting cold). Documentation belonging to collected hardware or software will always be kept. This doesn't need to be discussed. But the rest.... I call it the "other papers". What the hell should one do with this kind of stuff? The "other papers" fall into one of at least three categories: a) Documents generated in equipment's lifetime, closely related to the actual object they come with. Like Service logs, communication with the manufacturer (offers, invoices etc.), personal notes, memory dumps of something that has been used with the system. b) Documentation for stuff and devices (i.e. products) I don't have (anymore/not yet) c) Documentation for individual applications like a paper mill or the airport information system that don't exist anymore. d) Category a stuff that belongs to stuff that did not came with it and which can safely be assumed to have been scrapped long time ago My current practice is to keep category a documents for historic value. They usually don't take much space and are fun to read. Sometimes useful as well. Category b documents are kept if they belong to something I want to have or where I can imagine that I could get it in the future (examples: pdp8/i, straight-8, Honeywell DDP-516). I don't see a reason to keep category c and d documents. I already threw away some of those when they were simply photocopies of (assumed to be) available or completely boring manuals. And I already feel bad about that... So I am drowning in stuff that I don't really want to keep but something holds me from just discarding it. At one point I thought about bulk-scanning those before discarding. That would save the information - and my space. But I currently cannot afford a scanner that can do the job in hours/days instead of months. Al Kossow is doing a great job with bitsavers. I appreciate the approach to share vintage documentation and software in the way he does. I also added a few bits and docs I rescued and scanned. Most stuff on bitsavers is copyrighted in some way. For much of it, the copyright owner can be assumed as not being interested in enforcing the copyright because the information has lost its market value long time ago - or the company simply doesn't exist anymore. But what about stuff marked as confidential? I've got some Honeywell Level 6 manuals (some of them seem to be on bitsavers already), most of them are marked as confidential. Some of them have written "confidential" on every single page... Is it ok to simply publish that stuff? And what about category c documents? Shouldn't they be silently discarded? That would be the "correct" handling as one cannot be sure if parts of the described system are still somewhere in production use. The circumstances under which those docs go their way to collectors' hands are usually of a more or less obscure and inofficial nature... I like to read your opinions on that. Or proposals. I'd very much appreciate a vital discussion. Best wishes, Philipp From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sun Oct 25 20:47:21 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun, 25 Oct 2009 21:47:21 -0400 Subject: Menu builder script for MS-DOS? Message-ID: Hi, All, I'm trying to help a friend out with a role-playing game prop, and I have a memory of some tool from a number of years back that can accept a set of scripted menu items and responses and build an MS-DOS BAT script that will "implement" the menu structure. For example - you'd start off with a top level menu with, say, 4 items. Typing 1-4 would take you to one of four sub-menus, etc., until the end "nodes" are reached. The end-nodes could be a launching point for a DOS program (optional), or just a page of informational text. Does this sort of menu generator script ring any bells with anyone? I've googled for three days and have found all sorts of tutorials for how to craft scripted menus (for DOS and UNIX), and I could easily write my own set of menus from scratch in any number of system script languages; the end user in this particular case is not a programmer, so I'm trying to find something that will let him write the informational text for the end-nodes and the menu items to lead to them, but have a tool auto-generate the structure around it. Thanks for any pointers, suggestions or keywords to help my search. -ethan From hachti at hachti.de Sun Oct 25 20:47:27 2009 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2009 02:47:27 +0100 Subject: Kiel PDP-10 [was RE: pdp8/e frontpanel lamps] In-Reply-To: References: <4AE4DA2A.1040409@hachti.de> <4AE4E922.9080809@hachti.de> Message-ID: <4AE4FFAF.4080200@hachti.de> Hi Rich, >> Are they? Perhaps the PDP-10 uses them in their header panels? If that's >> the case, I could harvest some from the system in Kiel - it will never >> run again, > > WHY NOT??? :-((( I've been told that the University of Kiel's PDP-10 installation originally was largest in Europe. In the early 90s, the system went out of service. At that point they already discarded masses of equipment. I've been told of many tons of disk drives, tape drives and so on. The Kiel museum/collectors society who were tracking the University's computing department's "output" for many years saved a complete system consisting of two KI10 (not sure, but older than KL10) processors, memory, drum memory, peripheral controllers, and some peripherals. About 25 racks. And a row of RP02/03 disk drives. And tons of cables and documentation. That roughly describes what has been kept in basements over the last years. Since last year, the FH Kiel (technical college) took over the whole collection that contained the pdp10. They are currently in the process of compiling a permanent exhibition of computing history in an old WW2 shelter that is currently being prepared for that. They have to deal with massive space limitations compared to the volume of existing stuff in the collection. So they started to sort out things. Their interest is do display stuff, not to run stuff (but at least a pdp8/e will be runnable, perhaps we repair the 8/i as well). They are in touch with the guy who maintained the machine (the guy with the lamps). He selected about five cabinets and one RP02 disk drive for the exhibition. The exact minimum of stuff that can be called "pdp10 system, complete". The rest has been given away to collectors. I personally saved some stuff (RP drives, RS04 drives, CR10 card reader), the biggest part went to collectors who have in mind to get the stuff working again. The documentation for the pdp10 (or most of it, It will probably my job to dig through the remaining docs of the collection) has been thrown away with respect to the fact that the system will "never run again". A very lucky circumstance was that Erik Brens was standing next to the trash when that happened. So the recycling took place on eBay instead of a paper mill. > > If it were in the hands of someone who actually carecd about it, could it be > made to run? The "never run again" comes from the DEC service engineer. He told the Kiel official people (and me) that it would be possible (if the docs and cables etc. were still there, of course) to get the system back to work. But for that he would need at least one year of work (3 month to move the system from one building to another, with 4 people!!). He is sure that nobody else would be able to get it running. And he is not interested to do it as there also is no interest and money to get the system running again. So it will be there, nice and clean. And never run again. Hopefully the guys who got the major part of the system will be interested and skilled enough to get their stuff working. That would be a resurrection of great historic value! Best wishes, Philipp From hachti at hachti.de Sun Oct 25 21:07:31 2009 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2009 03:07:31 +0100 Subject: PDP 8/e Problem In-Reply-To: <200910260057.n9Q0vZsT003687@rickmurphy.net> References: <200910250100.n9P10US04667@h-68-165-246-86.mclnva23.covad.net> <200910260057.n9Q0vZsT003687@rickmurphy.net> Message-ID: <4AE50463.4000106@hachti.de> Rick Murphy wrote: > That sounds like the timesharing restrictions being turned on all of the > time. I'd try pulling the KM8E and see if the IOTs start working right. > If so, the "timeshare enabled" logic is on all of the time. > -Rick Hm, he wrote the following: > I tried stripping the system down to just the CPU, EAE, 8K of Core, and > the console async. interface, and it still behaves the same. That implies he tried without timeshare... The memory will work without. Of course only the lower 4K... If the instructions don't start working without memory expansion/timeshare control plugged in, I'd begin to track the "user mode" signal on the Omnibus - if it has the correct level - and the logic listening to it... Regards, Philipp From curt at atarimuseum.com Sun Oct 25 21:28:09 2009 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Sun, 25 Oct 2009 22:28:09 -0400 Subject: Menu builder script for MS-DOS? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4AE50939.2010609@atarimuseum.com> Wholey Cow!!! You are bringing up some GREAT memories, I'd totally forgotten about writing those, that used to be such a blast, here this site has a full tutorial with examples and doing batch menu building for MSDOS: http://http-server.carleton.ca/~dmcfet/menu.html Curt Ethan Dicks wrote: > Hi, All, > > I'm trying to help a friend out with a role-playing game prop, and I > have a memory of some tool from a number of years back that can accept > a set of scripted menu items and responses and build an MS-DOS BAT > script that will "implement" the menu structure. > > For example - you'd start off with a top level menu with, say, 4 > items. Typing 1-4 would take you to one of four sub-menus, etc., > until the end "nodes" are reached. The end-nodes could be a launching > point for a DOS program (optional), or just a page of informational > text. > > Does this sort of menu generator script ring any bells with anyone? > I've googled for three days and have found all sorts of tutorials for > how to craft scripted menus (for DOS and UNIX), and I could easily > write my own set of menus from scratch in any number of system script > languages; the end user in this particular case is not a programmer, > so I'm trying to find something that will let him write the > informational text for the end-nodes and the menu items to lead to > them, but have a tool auto-generate the structure around it. > > Thanks for any pointers, suggestions or keywords to help my search. > > -ethan > > From vrs at msn.com Sun Oct 25 21:35:45 2009 From: vrs at msn.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Sun, 25 Oct 2009 19:35:45 -0700 Subject: pdp8/e frontpanel lamps References: <4AE4DA2A.1040409@hachti.de> <4AE4E922.9080809@hachti.de> Message-ID: From: "Philipp Hachtmann": >>> (I have another box with lamps for RK05 etc. They have the part >>> number on the box and "OL-1" directly on the lamps.) >> >> Now *those* are much rarer, and are the correct ones for the 8/i. > Are they? Perhaps the PDP-10 uses them in their header panels? Well, they are rarer at least in my personal experience. It is of course possible that there are thousands out there that I don't know about. If the PDP-10 panels are 54-08458 Peripheral Indicator panels, then those use OL-2. The only thing that I am positive uses the OL-1 is the 8/i (and presumably the PDP-12?). >> If I am remembering correctly, they seemed to have the usual >> corporate amnesia about obsolete products and referred me to >> their US distributor, Wamco. Wouldn't hurt to ask someone else >> within the company, though. > Hm... Did you ask there? I didn't ask at Wamco, and reviewing the correspondence, it is possible that they didn't answer my questions because they wanted their disti to do it, rather than because they really didn't know. It ended up not mattering much -- there are other bulbs made by Chicago Miniatures that are probably close enough to the original OL-1. >> They should be. I have some spare OL-2, but would happily trade >> a few for OL-1 :-). > Hm. I have 26 OL-1. And 80+ OL-2... Wouldn't it better to find > some lamps? I suppose I should be happy with the CM7370 for the OL-1, and the CM7371 for the OL-2. Though they are getting hard to find these days too. > I wonder what I used to replace lamps on the pdp8/l - I have completed > at least one front panel. Ah, oh, I think I took them from another 8/l > that's completely in pieces. > So if the 8/i uses the OL-1 lamps, the 8/l probably does as well. In > that case I would also be very interested to get some more of those. No, the 8/i uses OL-1, but the 8/L uses OL-2, like the 8/E. Here's a pointer to my (somewhat dated) page on the subject: http://www.so-much-stuff.com/pdp8/bulbs.html Vince From vrs at msn.com Sun Oct 25 21:50:39 2009 From: vrs at msn.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Sun, 25 Oct 2009 19:50:39 -0700 Subject: OL-1 substitute References: <730560.5009.qm@web82605.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > Has anyone tried the currently-available CM7370 in > an 8/I or RK05? This bulb is suggested as a substitute > for the OL-1 on Vince's web page. The suggested substitute > for the OL-2, the CM7371, works wonderfully in an 8/E. > They are plenty bright, and they will last longer running at > undervoltage. An 8/E that I received in working > condition arrived with a full complement of CM7371 installed > by its previous owner (a machine shop). Cool! That's good to know! I'm not aware yet of anyone actually having tried the CM7370 instead of the OL-1. I did some replacement lights PC boards for the 8/i, since they seem to get crapped up when you solder and desolder on them (bad adhesion on the traces). The replacements have a provision for optional sockets and series resistors, so you can substitute OL-2 or whatever 15V-or-less bulb you happen to have on hand. (Even LEDs, if you really must.) I have several more of the PCBs, if folks need them. I also have a couple of switches PCBs, if yours has been trashed. (You'll need to salvage the switches from somewhere though, as they are unobtainium.) I do have one working 8/i panel that I completely rebuilt with the replacement PCBs and OL-2 bulbs + resistors instead of the original OL-1. > Some technical information regarding operating incandescent > lamps at other than their nominal ratings can be found here: > > http://www.wamcoinc.com/Oshino/Oshino_lamps-Overview.htm That's a nice write-up. It used to be available on the Oshino site, and I have it saved from there. Vince From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sun Oct 25 22:21:06 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun, 25 Oct 2009 23:21:06 -0400 Subject: Menu builder script for MS-DOS? In-Reply-To: <4AE50939.2010609@atarimuseum.com> References: <4AE50939.2010609@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: On 10/25/09, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > Wholey Cow!!! You are bringing up some GREAT memories, I'd totally > forgotten about writing those, that used to be such a blast, here this > site has a full tutorial with examples and doing batch menu building for > MSDOS: > > http://http-server.carleton.ca/~dmcfet/menu.html Hi, Curt, Thanks for that pointer. I hadn't run across that particular one (but it's like many others I did run across) - it's more elaborate than most. Unfortunately, it's not what I am looking for - what I am after is a menu *builder* that works from a pre-written "script" that contains the menu items and such. As I mentioned previously, I would have no problem whipping up a set of scripts but the person this is for is not a coder. Interesting reference, though. Thanks for it. -ethan From curt at atarimuseum.com Sun Oct 25 22:36:32 2009 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Sun, 25 Oct 2009 23:36:32 -0400 Subject: Menu builder script for MS-DOS? In-Reply-To: References: <4AE50939.2010609@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <4AE51940.3040008@atarimuseum.com> Hi Ethan, Sorry, I misread. There used to be a product and I'm rattling my brain to remember the name of it. It is exactly what you are looking for, it was a menu building app that I used in 1994 to load up applications to users desktops from their Novell network. Black background, dark blue border... I'll look through some old notebooks I still keep and see if I kept a reference name for the program... Curt Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 10/25/09, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > >> Wholey Cow!!! You are bringing up some GREAT memories, I'd totally >> forgotten about writing those, that used to be such a blast, here this >> site has a full tutorial with examples and doing batch menu building for >> MSDOS: >> >> http://http-server.carleton.ca/~dmcfet/menu.html >> > > Hi, Curt, > > Thanks for that pointer. I hadn't run across that particular one (but > it's like many others I did run across) - it's more elaborate than > most. > > Unfortunately, it's not what I am looking for - what I am after is a > menu *builder* that works from a pre-written "script" that contains > the menu items and such. As I mentioned previously, I would have no > problem whipping up a set of scripts but the person this is for is not > a coder. > > Interesting reference, though. Thanks for it. > > -ethan > > From curt at atarimuseum.com Sun Oct 25 22:50:05 2009 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Sun, 25 Oct 2009 23:50:05 -0400 Subject: Menu builder script for MS-DOS? In-Reply-To: References: <4AE50939.2010609@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <4AE51C6D.3000906@atarimuseum.com> Hi Ethan, This is the later DOS version of EZ Menu then the one I used in 1994. Download it from here: http://www.atarimuseum.com/downloads/eminstal.zip Curt Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 10/25/09, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > >> Wholey Cow!!! You are bringing up some GREAT memories, I'd totally >> forgotten about writing those, that used to be such a blast, here this >> site has a full tutorial with examples and doing batch menu building for >> MSDOS: >> >> http://http-server.carleton.ca/~dmcfet/menu.html >> > > Hi, Curt, > > Thanks for that pointer. I hadn't run across that particular one (but > it's like many others I did run across) - it's more elaborate than > most. > > Unfortunately, it's not what I am looking for - what I am after is a > menu *builder* that works from a pre-written "script" that contains > the menu items and such. As I mentioned previously, I would have no > problem whipping up a set of scripts but the person this is for is not > a coder. > > Interesting reference, though. Thanks for it. > > -ethan > > From cclist at sydex.com Sun Oct 25 23:52:53 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 25 Oct 2009 20:52:53 -0800 Subject: Good references for ANSI terminal emulation? In-Reply-To: <4AE4E987.2070802@brutman.com> References: <4AE27E4A.1050507@brutman.com>, <4AE44A85.2413.E56DD3@cclist.sydex.com>, <4AE4E987.2070802@brutman.com> Message-ID: <4AE4BAA5.13799.2648A1E@cclist.sydex.com> On 25 Oct 2009 at 19:12, Michael B. Brutman wrote: > Just a little more help because I'm being super thick - what exactly > does "keypad application mode mean"? I understand the difference > between numeric mode and non-numeric, or I'm assuming that it works > the same way it does on PC. But the "application mode" thing is > throwing me off because I don't know what it means and can't draw my > own analogies. The VT100 User Guide is pretty awful with its language. I like the VT220 or even the TVI 922 manuals better for clear language. Okay, let's start with the cursor keys (up down right left). In VT52 mode, these generate ESC A, ESC B, etc. In VT100 mode, the default is to generate ESC [ A, ESC [ B and so on. These correspond to the ANSI control seuqnences that move the cursor one position. There is another mode, called "application" mode. The cursor keys generate ESC O A, ESC O B, etc. One puts the cursor keys into "application mode" with ESC [ ? 1 h. One put s the cursor keys into "normal" mode with ESC [ ? 1 l. (lowercase "L"). Why are these called "set" and "reset"? Easy--the ANSI seuqence "ESC [ ? (some number or string of numbers) h" is the ANSI "set mode" (mnemonic SM) command. The other one is the ANSI "reset mode" (mnemonic RM) command. Okay, now for the numeric keypad. These also can generate either what's printed on the keycaps (hex 39 for 9) or a unique code that distinguishes them from the keys with the same labels on main section of the keyboard. This is called "application mode" also--but it's separate from the cursor keys. To enter application mode for the numeric keypad use "ESC ="; to return to numeric mode, use "ESC >". These are not ANSI commands, but are DEC's own contribution to the VT100--but most implementations follow them anyway. Note that there are many DEC-specific VT100 commands, such as enabling double-wide and double-wide, double-high characters. Hope this helps, Chuck From curt at atarimuseum.com Sun Oct 25 22:57:11 2009 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Sun, 25 Oct 2009 23:57:11 -0400 Subject: Menu builder script for MS-DOS? In-Reply-To: References: <4AE50939.2010609@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <4AE51E17.7060302@atarimuseum.com> Ethan, If you also want to try some other DOS menu apps and shell apps, look here: http://mail.nfbnet.org/download/dos_shel.htm Curt Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 10/25/09, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > >> Wholey Cow!!! You are bringing up some GREAT memories, I'd totally >> forgotten about writing those, that used to be such a blast, here this >> site has a full tutorial with examples and doing batch menu building for >> MSDOS: >> >> http://http-server.carleton.ca/~dmcfet/menu.html >> > > Hi, Curt, > > Thanks for that pointer. I hadn't run across that particular one (but > it's like many others I did run across) - it's more elaborate than > most. > > Unfortunately, it's not what I am looking for - what I am after is a > menu *builder* that works from a pre-written "script" that contains > the menu items and such. As I mentioned previously, I would have no > problem whipping up a set of scripts but the person this is for is not > a coder. > > Interesting reference, though. Thanks for it. > > -ethan > > From brianlanning at gmail.com Sun Oct 25 23:04:57 2009 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Sun, 25 Oct 2009 23:04:57 -0500 Subject: Picked up some new toys today... Message-ID: <6dbe3c380910252104p280d999cm29d2f83196cc17a4@mail.gmail.com> I actually got some good deals from ebay today. One was an amiga 1200. It included a 68030-50 accelerator board (with scsi controller), 3 external scsi-2 hard drives, an external nec scsi cdrom drive, a 3com pcmcia network adapter, a commodore 1902 monitor, and about 300 floppy disks. (I will never run out of floppy disks again, lol) That was $250. I also bought a power computing ppc604e mac clone with a 17" (i think) apple monitor, several keyboards, and a mouse. That one was $20. :-) He also mentioned another computer that he'll be pulling out shortly. He claims it's an ibm 5150 or 5160 with original cga monitor and... a 386 upgrade board. Not sure what's up with that, or even if he'll want a reasonable price for it. I guess we'll see what happens with that. brian From geoffr at zipcon.net Mon Oct 26 03:13:13 2009 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoffrey Reed) Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2009 01:13:13 -0700 Subject: Trouble installing system on a Macintosh Quadra 660AV In-Reply-To: <200910252108.05307.thrashbarg@kaput.homeunix.org> Message-ID: Depending on how much ram is in there, any of the 7.xx series should work, and you will need the system enabler. I don't remember if any of the flavors of 8 will work on it. On 10/25/09 3:38 AM, "Alexis" wrote: > Hi, > > I've got a Mac Quadra 660AV which refuses to install any system software, > except System 7.1, which it refuses to boot from (apparently it needs a newer > version, but web pages about the Mac say it should work). I've tried System > 7.1, 7.5 through 7.5.3, and Mac OS 7.6. > > It happens right at the end of the install, when the system is being > finalised. I've replaced the battery, cleared the NVRAM, updated the disk > driver and set the date. I'm using the original hard drive. > > Does anyone have any ideas? > > Alexis. > From chrise at pobox.com Sun Oct 25 13:51:07 2009 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Sun, 25 Oct 2009 13:51:07 -0500 Subject: TU56 lamp replacement In-Reply-To: <4AE3617F.13816.26FD868@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4AE3B1F5.D038FC6A@cs.ubc.ca> <4AE3617F.13816.26FD868@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20091025185107.GV6839@n0jcf.net> I recently had to find some "grain-of-rice" lamps to replace those burned out in the illumination side of an HP 2748B optical paper tape reader. These guys, http://www.jkllamps.com/ had an exact replacement. My requirement was to find an exact physical match because the bulbs have to fit down inside a machined well that lines up with the holes in the tape. They have plenty of datasheets with both mechanical and electrical specs for all their bulbs. I am a happy customer. Chris -- Chris Elmquist From hachti at hachti.de Mon Oct 26 05:49:12 2009 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2009 11:49:12 +0100 Subject: TU56 lamp replacement In-Reply-To: <20091025185107.GV6839@n0jcf.net> References: <4AE3B1F5.D038FC6A@cs.ubc.ca> <4AE3617F.13816.26FD868@cclist.sydex.com> <20091025185107.GV6839@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <4AE57EA8.8030507@hachti.de> Hi Chris, > > http://www.jkllamps.com/ > Thank you for the link! > I recently had to find some "grain-of-rice" lamps to replace those burned > out in the illumination side of an HP 2748B optical paper tape reader. And? Which lamp did you use? That device is not too uncommon. So it would probably good to know. My lamp is still ok. But I don't really use the machine. Regards, Philipp From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Mon Oct 26 07:13:13 2009 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2009 13:13:13 +0100 Subject: Rescued documentation issues In-Reply-To: <4AE4F98E.5090605@hachti.de> References: <4AE4F98E.5090605@hachti.de> Message-ID: I have a paper bias...so I keep at the moment...I catalogue as best as I can and have that online (www.collection.archivist.info search for IM or IS to get instruction manual or instruction and service for example), I then respond and scan if needed. That includes the confidential as only the title is listed so nothing is public, but at least a desperate person can find a copy via google and we can talk :) What to keep and what to throw the difficult question, unless you know there is another out there, you may have the only copy, this is where I put the archivist hat on and say keep or make steps to give to a safe haven. Dave Caroline From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Oct 26 07:47:18 2009 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2009 05:47:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Trouble installing system on a Macintosh Quadra 660AV In-Reply-To: from Geoffrey Reed at "Oct 26, 9 01:13:13 am" Message-ID: <200910261247.n9QClIFV015172@floodgap.com> > Depending on how much ram is in there, any of the 7.xx series should work, > and you will need the system enabler. > > I don't remember if any of the flavors of 8 will work on it. The Q 660AV is a full '040, so it will run 8.1 given adequate RAM. However, I wonder if there is a logic board problem if none of the later versions will run. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Friends don't let friends use Windows. ------------------------------------- From dgahling at hotmail.com Mon Oct 26 08:39:51 2009 From: dgahling at hotmail.com (Dan Gahlinger) Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2009 09:39:51 -0400 Subject: Rescued documentation issues In-Reply-To: References: <4AE4F98E.5090605@hachti.de> Message-ID: I used to be that way. It becomes unwieldy. My present mantra is "digitize, digitize, digitize". Digitized documents take up no space (to speak of). I've been tilling through all my docs from the 70's+ unique and rare documentation no one else has, and digitizing the heck out of it, then tossing the originals. I only keep a few prized items. with digitized docs it's possible to spread them far and wide, so if anything does happen, there's always a copy, somewhere on the net. Let the internet archive it for you ;) Dan. _________________________________________________________________ Lots of fantastic Windows 7 offers, in one convenient place. Get the perfect deal for you now. http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9691633 From dgahling at hotmail.com Mon Oct 26 08:42:41 2009 From: dgahling at hotmail.com (Dan Gahlinger) Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2009 09:42:41 -0400 Subject: Menu builder script for MS-DOS? In-Reply-To: <4AE51E17.7060302@atarimuseum.com> References: <4AE50939.2010609@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: You might also want to check out a cool little utility called "Snobol" It was actually a "programming language" *cough* (not really!) I remember ez-menu very well, and it was very simple to use, snobol is another one, and it's incredibly simple. we had a retail store running off of snobol for years. and if I remember correctly, snobol could do things ez-menu couldn't, depending what you needed. on the linux side, check out "dialog", I don't know if there's a dos equivalent. Just some suggestions... Dan. _________________________________________________________________ Ready for a deal-of-a-lifetime? See fantastic offers on Windows 7, in one convenient place. http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9691634 From cclist at sydex.com Mon Oct 26 13:13:41 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2009 10:13:41 -0800 Subject: Menu builder script for MS-DOS? In-Reply-To: References: , <4AE51E17.7060302@atarimuseum.com>, Message-ID: <4AE57655.18886.1B8BD1@cclist.sydex.com> On 26 Oct 2009 at 9:42, Dan Gahlinger wrote: > You might also want to check out a cool little utility > called "Snobol" > > It was actually a "programming language" *cough* (not really!) Actually, it *is* a programming language. I still have my black- covered "The SNOBOL4 Programming Language" from 1968. It was an interesting language to play around with, and unless my memory is failing, was implemented in FORTRAN for portability. SNOBOL's forte was pattern-matching with strong support for recursion. I encountered it both on S/360 and CDC 6000 systems, although I believe it was available on other mainframes of the time (e.g., GE 635, Univac 1108). There were a lot of "menu builders". I have a couple of lesser-known ones. One is called "SNAP" and I don't remember the others. Of all of the batch-file enhancers for DOS that I used, only CENVI remains as something that I still use for doing more invoved jobs. It's basically an interpreted C that runs as batch files. --Chuck From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Oct 26 12:41:53 2009 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2009 10:41:53 -0700 Subject: Rescued documentation issues In-Reply-To: <4AE4F98E.5090605@hachti.de> References: <4AE4F98E.5090605@hachti.de> Message-ID: <4AE5DF61.2070508@bitsavers.org> Philipp Hachtmann wrote: > c) Documentation for individual applications like a paper mill or the > airport information system that don't exist anymore. > > And what about category c documents? Shouldn't they be silently > discarded? That would be the "correct" handling as one cannot be sure if > parts of the described system are still somewhere in production use. The > circumstances under which those docs go their way to collectors' hands > are usually of a more or less obscure and inofficial nature... > This is a tough one. What I'm finding is there is very little detailed documentation that has been archived on how systems were built, along with the applications that ran them for exactly the reasons you give. The best you find are overviews in the trade publications of the time. One example that came up recently as we are working on the content for the new exhibit was trying to find out exactly what first Univac that went into non-government (GE Louisville) use was used for. Details turn out to be quite sketchy because GE management didn't want the competition to know how much useful work they were getting out of it. Are historians going to be interested in artifacts to this level of detail? Which does bring up the point of what ultimately will happen to a personal collection of such documentation. The problem, of course, is by the mid-60's the application of computers is so widespread that you can't possibly hope to save everything to that level of detail. As a rule of thumb, I would save documents that describe how the system was put together, maybe project schedules and progress reports, and only overview documents when the system was in operation, maybe a few hundred pages at the most unless it is a VERY large system. Think about of what use this documentation would be to someone in the future, historians, people working on simulations, or restorations, for example. From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Oct 26 12:44:06 2009 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2009 10:44:06 -0700 Subject: Rescued documentation issues In-Reply-To: References: <4AE4F98E.5090605@hachti.de> Message-ID: <4AE5DFE6.9000204@bitsavers.org> Dan Gahlinger wrote: > I've been tilling through all my docs from the 70's+ > unique and rare documentation no one else has, > and digitizing the heck out of it, then tossing the originals. Which brings up the problem of how to create a private index so there isn't massive duplication of effort. From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Mon Oct 26 12:50:30 2009 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2009 18:50:30 +0100 Subject: Rescued documentation issues In-Reply-To: <4AE5DFE6.9000204@bitsavers.org> References: <4AE4F98E.5090605@hachti.de> <4AE5DFE6.9000204@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: My catalogue is database based I could extend it to include other collections, or we start learning the the linked data (public-lod mailing list) stuff that is being researched and implemented by a few at the moment. Dave Caroline From dgahling at hotmail.com Mon Oct 26 14:16:33 2009 From: dgahling at hotmail.com (Dan Gahlinger) Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2009 15:16:33 -0400 Subject: Rescued documentation issues In-Reply-To: <4AE5DFE6.9000204@bitsavers.org> References: <4AE4F98E.5090605@hachti.de> Message-ID: yeah, then you get into other issues... like certain individuals being total ass-hats because they won't "allow" people to get simple photocopies of "their" precious documentation. They don't want anyone scanning it in, unless it's done to their exacting standards, which, 100% of the time, are totally a waste of time and useless. eg: there's the only existing printout of a document from the 80s, where the printout is dot matrix, with the dots the size of quarters and the guy won't scan it unless you use a $50,000 machine set at 9600 dpi, hand fed, with latex gloves in a clean room and then archived onto gold-master archive CD's. when, a standard photocopier will actually make a copy that is more readable than the original, and thus supply a better scan in the end. the result being they horde their collections, the only copies in existence, and never get around to scanning it, or sometimes, they will scan it, but won't give (or sell) the scans because it's their *precious* in the end, the only copies around are destroyed or lost because one person is being difficult. In my case, I know I have the only existing copies of certain things (believe me, I've looked), and if other copies are out there, no one is doing anything about it or saying anything, so the result is the same. For me, I'm trying to scan it all in and get it out there, or as many people to enjoy as possible. and hopefully, in the future copies will survive me. Maybe things will get better when that UK project that allows us to download our minds onto the internet finally completes... Dan. > Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2009 10:44:06 -0700 > From: aek at bitsavers.org > To: > Subject: Re: Rescued documentation issues > > Dan Gahlinger wrote: > > > I've been tilling through all my docs from the 70's+ > > unique and rare documentation no one else has, > > and digitizing the heck out of it, then tossing the originals. > > Which brings up the problem of how to create a private index so > there isn't massive duplication of effort. > > _________________________________________________________________ CDN College or University student? Get Windows 7 for only $39.99 before Jan 3! Buy it now! http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9691636 From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 26 14:12:40 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2009 19:12:40 +0000 (GMT) Subject: TU56 lamp replacement In-Reply-To: <20091025185107.GV6839@n0jcf.net> from "Chris Elmquist" at Oct 25, 9 01:51:07 pm Message-ID: > > I recently had to find some "grain-of-rice" lamps to replace those burned > out in the illumination side of an HP 2748B optical paper tape reader. > > These guys, > > http://www.jkllamps.com/ > > had an exact replacement. My requirement was to find an exact physical Although my 2748 (a -A model) is currently working fine, and I even have a complete spare read head for it (picked up on E-bay), I would be interested to know what the replacement lamps are. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 26 14:14:25 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2009 19:14:25 +0000 (GMT) Subject: TU56 lamp replacement In-Reply-To: <4AE4D2AE.3010903@hachti.de> from "Philipp Hachtmann" at Oct 25, 9 11:35:26 pm Message-ID: > > Or fans: If a fan fails, would you really looking for an exact > > replacement? Most likely you will replace it with a generic fan, as > > long as voltage and air throughput match. > Of course! But fans are always generic stuff. I guess I am the only person here who _repairs_ fans. I've been known to rewind the stator, and replace components on the control PCB. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 26 14:22:18 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2009 19:22:18 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Kiel PDP-10 [was RE: pdp8/e frontpanel lamps] In-Reply-To: <4AE4FFAF.4080200@hachti.de> from "Philipp Hachtmann" at Oct 26, 9 02:47:27 am Message-ID: > > If it were in the hands of someone who actually carecd about it, > could it be > > made to run? > > The "never run again" comes from the DEC service engineer. He told the > Kiel official people (and me) that it would be possible (if the docs and > cables etc. were still there, of course) to get the system back to work. > But for that he would need at least one year of work (3 month to move > the system from one building to another, with 4 people!!). He is sure > that nobody else would be able to get it running. And he is not Sounds like he needs educating into the behaviour of classic computer enthusiasts :-) Put it this way, if I was nearer, I'd be inclined to try to accept that as a challenge. It would take me more than a year, sure. I would spend a lot of time reading documentation for a machine I've never worked on before, sure. But even if I say so myself, I am _darn sure_ I'd get it going in the end. And the same applies to a dozen other people I know. -tony From pat at computer-refuge.org Mon Oct 26 14:42:55 2009 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2009 15:42:55 -0400 Subject: TU56 lamp replacement In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200910261542.55784.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Monday 26 October 2009, Tony Duell wrote: > > > Or fans: If a fan fails, would you really looking for an exact > > > replacement? Most likely you will replace it with a generic fan, > > > as long as voltage and air throughput match. > > > > Of course! But fans are always generic stuff. > > I guess I am the only person here who _repairs_ fans. I've been known > to rewind the stator, and replace components on the control PCB. > > -tony Tony, Personally, I'm surprised that you haven't repaired incandescent light bulbs... or maybe you have? Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From arcarlini at iee.org Mon Oct 26 14:47:09 2009 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2009 19:47:09 -0000 Subject: Good references for ANSI terminal emulation? In-Reply-To: <4AE4E987.2070802@brutman.com> Message-ID: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org wrote: > > Just a little more help because I'm being super thick - what exactly > does "keypad application mode mean"? I understand the difference > between numeric mode and non-numeric, or I'm assuming that it > works the > same way it does on PC. But the "application mode" thing is throwing > me off because I don't know what it means and can't draw my own > analogies. iirc that ANSI standard was based on the DEC VT100, so if you read the VT100 user manual (available on Manx I think) you'll have a good idea of what everything is supposed to do. My recollection is that in numeric keypad mode you cannot tell the difference between "1" on the keypad and "1" above the "Q". In "application keypad" mode, "1" on the keypad generates an escape sequence. Antonio From ajp166 at verizon.net Mon Oct 26 15:13:05 2009 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (Allison) Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2009 16:13:05 -0400 Subject: Kiel PDP-10 [was RE: pdp8/e frontpanel lamps] In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4AE602D1.6010203@verizon.net> The ususal reason for that pronouncement is the backplane is summarily messedup beyond belief. In some cases due to shorts or other "errors" large sections of wire wrap being cooked. (I presume this is an early 10 and not a 20). That also means that any board plugged into it is suspect as well. Many hours of proble and verify, unpowered! Repairable yes, lots of work big time yes. Worth fixing during it's commercial days, rarely. At a minimum it should be kept intact as an example if parts cannot be used to restore another. Allison Tony Duell wrote: >> > If it were in the hands of someone who actually carecd about it, >> could it be >> > made to run? >> >> The "never run again" comes from the DEC service engineer. He told the >> Kiel official people (and me) that it would be possible (if the docs and >> cables etc. were still there, of course) to get the system back to work. >> But for that he would need at least one year of work (3 month to move >> the system from one building to another, with 4 people!!). He is sure >> that nobody else would be able to get it running. And he is not >> > > Sounds like he needs educating into the behaviour of classic computer > enthusiasts :-) > > Put it this way, if I was nearer, I'd be inclined to try to accept that > as a challenge. It would take me more than a year, sure. I would spend a > lot of time reading documentation for a machine I've never worked on > before, sure. But even if I say so myself, I am _darn sure_ I'd get it > going in the end. And the same applies to a dozen other people I know. > > -tony > > From hachti at hachti.de Mon Oct 26 15:16:12 2009 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2009 21:16:12 +0100 Subject: TU56 lamp replacement In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4AE6038C.2020500@hachti.de> > I guess I am the only person here who _repairs_ fans. I've been known to > rewind the stator, and replace components on the control PCB. Oh! What about the bearings?!? That's the most usual source of failure... From hachti at hachti.de Mon Oct 26 15:17:04 2009 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2009 21:17:04 +0100 Subject: TU56 lamp replacement In-Reply-To: <200910261542.55784.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <200910261542.55784.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <4AE603C0.5090500@hachti.de> > > Personally, I'm surprised that you haven't repaired incandescent light > bulbs... or maybe you have? I once found some info about people who repaired CRT tubes...!! :-) From cclist at sydex.com Mon Oct 26 16:19:59 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2009 13:19:59 -0800 Subject: Good references for ANSI terminal emulation? In-Reply-To: References: <4AE4E987.2070802@brutman.com>, Message-ID: <4AE5A1FF.19335.C619DE@cclist.sydex.com> On 26 Oct 2009 at 19:47, arcarlini at iee.org wrote: > iirc that ANSI standard was based on the DEC VT100, so if you read the > VT100 user manual (available on Manx I think) you'll have a good idea > of what everything is supposed to do. Other way 'round, I think. The original applicable ANSI standard is X3.41-1974, which defines the simpler escape sequences. The VT100 wasn't introduced until 1978. Additional sequences for alternate character sets were defined by X3.64-1979. Both standards underwent revisions as the years went on, but neither standard is currently active, being supplanted by ISO 2022 and 6429, respectively. FWIW, well into the 1980's, the ANSI escape sequences were mostly ignored by the industry (DEC being an exception). Hence the evolution of TERMCAP and CURSES. --Chuck From hachti at hachti.de Mon Oct 26 15:32:33 2009 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2009 21:32:33 +0100 Subject: Rescued documentation issues In-Reply-To: <4AE5DF61.2070508@bitsavers.org> References: <4AE4F98E.5090605@hachti.de> <4AE5DF61.2070508@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4AE60761.7020309@hachti.de> > This is a tough one. What I'm finding is there is very little detailed > documentation > that has been archived on how systems were built, along with the > applications that > ran them for exactly the reasons you give. The best you find are > overviews in > the trade publications of the time. Hm, overviews could be of greater historic interest. I used google and it seems that my docs belong to a paper making machine control system. And it seems that those are still around somewhere. What you get from technicians in most cases is not what gives you the "big picture" of a system rather than drowns you in detail. For the paper thing, I have binders and binders and binders full of flowchart diagrams, listings, more diagrams, ECOs, memos etc. But I have not yet found the machine's design documents or something that gives me an overview. > Are historians going to be interested in artifacts to this level of detail? My (little) experience would say: Not really. > Which does bring up the point of what ultimately will happen to a personal > collection of such documentation. Yes. What is a pile of paper worth? If it's sitting somewhere at someone's shelf, it's inaccessible. And when that one once deceases/loses interest, it again endangered by recycling facilities. Oh, a powerful document scanner seems to be a must-have! That would make things much easier. > > As a rule of thumb, I would save documents that describe how the system was > put together, maybe project schedules and progress reports, and only > overview > documents when the system was in operation, maybe a few hundred pages at > the > most unless it is a VERY large system. Ok. That's a word. > Think about of what use this documentation would be to someone in the > future, > historians, people working on simulations, or restorations, for example. That's difficult: I assume that my view could be to limited to see all implications. So it is possible that I or just discards stuff that others would have killed for. See the Kiel PDP10 docs I mentioned: They were on their way to the dumpster, decision made by an academic person working as scientific director. He did not consider the stuff worth keeping. Was he right? Erik Brens walked along in the right moment, taking it all, finding people who are willing to pay $$ for it. So the (historic) value can be considerd a difficult to measure thing. Regards, Philipp From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Oct 26 16:16:23 2009 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2009 14:16:23 -0700 Subject: Rescued documentation issues In-Reply-To: <4AE60761.7020309@hachti.de> References: <4AE4F98E.5090605@hachti.de> <4AE5DF61.2070508@bitsavers.org> <4AE60761.7020309@hachti.de> Message-ID: <4AE611A7.1050204@bitsavers.org> Philipp Hachtmann wrote: > See the Kiel PDP10 docs I mentioned: They were on their way to the > dumpster, decision made by an academic person working as scientific > director. He did not consider the stuff worth keeping. Was he right? > Erik Brens walked along in the right moment, taking it all, finding > people who are willing to pay $$ for it. So the (historic) value can be > considerd a difficult to measure thing. > We have to make decisions like this all the time at CHM. The Boston museum did as well, and they applied a different set of filters. It comes down to having the resources available to archive it in some form, and making an informed judgment if what you are looking at would have real value to either you, or someone in the future (much harder). Then there is the value of the paper artifact, or the information printed upon it. It does sound like you need to get high speed scanning set up, though, if it is coming down to not having the space to preserve the information in its current form. From IanK at vulcan.com Mon Oct 26 17:21:53 2009 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2009 15:21:53 -0700 Subject: Rescued documentation issues In-Reply-To: <4AE60761.7020309@hachti.de> References: <4AE4F98E.5090605@hachti.de> <4AE5DF61.2070508@bitsavers.org> <4AE60761.7020309@hachti.de> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Philipp Hachtmann > Sent: Monday, October 26, 2009 1:33 PM > To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Rescued documentation issues > > > > This is a tough one. What I'm finding is there is very little > detailed > > documentation > > that has been archived on how systems were built, along with the > > applications that > > ran them for exactly the reasons you give. The best you find are > > overviews in > > the trade publications of the time. > Hm, overviews could be of greater historic interest. I used google and > it seems that my docs belong to a paper making machine control system. > And it seems that those are still around somewhere. > > What you get from technicians in most cases is not what gives you the > "big picture" of a system rather than drowns you in detail. > For the paper thing, I have binders and binders and binders full of > flowchart diagrams, listings, more diagrams, ECOs, memos etc. > But I have not yet found the machine's design documents or something > that gives me an overview. > Of course, there's always a counterexample, and I'm going to offer one. One of my colleagues needed to decipher some 'images' of DECtapes that were created by simply extracting track contents (essentially, recording the read head output) into a disk file on a modern PC. Interpreting those images required in-depth research regarding DECtape media format and the use of same by various DEC operating systems and utilities. > > Are historians going to be interested in artifacts to this level of > detail? > My (little) experience would say: Not really. > I am! I am! :-) My position, that detail is important, is premised on the belief that if we are committed to preserving the history of information technology, we need to preserve the artifacts as *working* systems. But I also recognize the practical challenges of saving the immense amount of information created over the last few decades. Saving it in physical format requires a great deal of space and curatorial care (to avoid damage over time and to provide meaningful access to it) and even the finest such program can be rendered moot by a random spark. Saving it in electronic format is labor-intensive and runs the risk of loss of information through noise in the process (i.e. scan quality) or the obsolescence of storage and representation formats. I've had numerous conversations with Library Science types regarding the latter problem. It's a hard one. UNIX is user friendly. It's just selective about who its friends are. Ian S. King, Sr. Vintage Systems Engineer Living Computer Museum A project of Vulcan, Inc. http://www.livingcomputermuseum.org From IanK at vulcan.com Mon Oct 26 17:24:18 2009 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2009 15:24:18 -0700 Subject: TU56 lamp replacement In-Reply-To: <4AE603C0.5090500@hachti.de> References: <200910261542.55784.pat@computer-refuge.org> <4AE603C0.5090500@hachti.de> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Philipp Hachtmann > Sent: Monday, October 26, 2009 1:17 PM > To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: TU56 lamp replacement > > > > > > Personally, I'm surprised that you haven't repaired incandescent > light > > bulbs... or maybe you have? > I once found some info about people who repaired CRT tubes...!! > > :-) > This was once somewhat common. Some of the CRTs made for high-end oscilloscopes were so complex that it was fiscally prudent to replace the filament when it burned out. -- Ian From RichA at vulcan.com Mon Oct 26 17:55:41 2009 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2009 15:55:41 -0700 Subject: Kiel PDP-10 [was RE: pdp8/e frontpanel lamps] In-Reply-To: <4AE4FFAF.4080200@hachti.de> References: <4AE4DA2A.1040409@hachti.de> <4AE4E922.9080809@hachti.de> <4AE4FFAF.4080200@hachti.de> Message-ID: > From: Philipp Hachtmann > Sent: Sunday, October 25, 2009 6:47 PM > Hi Rich, Hi, Philipp, First let me state that I misunderstood which system was under discussion. I thought you meant the other KI10, the one associated with all the RP disks and cables and such that have been discussed in passing. I was already upset that the 1077 had been separated into two 1070s, and thought that no one intended to do anything with *either* of them. >>> Are they? Perhaps the PDP-10 uses them in their header panels? If that's >>> the case, I could harvest some from the system in Kiel - it will never >>> run again, >> WHY NOT??? :-((( > I've been told that the University of Kiel's PDP-10 installation > originally was largest in Europe. > In the early 90s, the system went out of service. At that point they > already discarded masses of equipment. I've been told of many tons of > disk drives, tape drives and so on. > The Kiel museum/collectors society who were tracking the University's > computing department's "output" for many years saved a complete system > consisting of two KI10 (not sure, but older than KL10) processors, > memory, drum memory, peripheral controllers, and some peripherals. About > 25 racks. And a row of RP02/03 disk drives. And tons of cables and > documentation. That roughly describes what has been kept in basements > over the last years. Given that it was using RP02/RP03 disk drives, it is highly unlikely to be anything other than KI10 processors, which are late for a KA10 and very early for a KL10. > Since last year, the FH Kiel (technical college) took over the whole > collection that contained the pdp10. They are currently in the process > of compiling a permanent exhibition of computing history in an old WW2 > shelter that is currently being prepared for that. They have to deal > with massive space limitations compared to the volume of existing stuff > in the collection. So they started to sort out things. Their interest is > do display stuff, not to run stuff (but at least a pdp8/e will be > runnable, perhaps we repair the 8/i as well). I would encourage you to repair the 8/i and put the two side by side. We are doing exactly that. > They are in touch with the guy who maintained the machine (the guy with > the lamps). He selected about five cabinets and one RP02 disk drive for > the exhibition. The exact minimum of stuff that can be called "pdp10 > system, complete". The rest has been given away to collectors. I > personally saved some stuff (RP drives, RS04 drives, CR10 card reader), > the biggest part went to collectors who have in mind to get the stuff > working again. I'm sorry that they took that path, but I do understand. > The documentation for the pdp10 (or most of it, It will probably my job > to dig through the remaining docs of the collection) has been thrown > away with respect to the fact that the system will "never run again". > A very lucky circumstance was that Erik Brens was standing next to the > trash when that happened. So the recycling took place on eBay instead of > a paper mill. Hmm. I'm not sure that scattering it to the winds on eBay was much better. >> If it were in the hands of someone who actually carecd about it, could it be >> made to run? > The "never run again" comes from the DEC service engineer. He told the > Kiel official people (and me) that it would be possible (if the docs and > cables etc. were still there, of course) to get the system back to work. > But for that he would need at least one year of work (3 month to move > the system from one building to another, with 4 people!!). He is sure > that nobody else would be able to get it running. And he is not > interested to do it as there also is no interest and money to get the > system running again. So it will be there, nice and clean. And never run > again. Have a look at the story of the 2065 restoration on the PDPplanet site. (Yes, the site is out of date, and we're rebranding in short order, but that part will move into the new site.) We even had former DEC FS engineers working with us on several portions of the project. > Hopefully the guys who got the major part of the system will be > interested and skilled enough to get their stuff working. That would be > a resurrection of great historic value! Indeed it would. I hope that it actually happens. > Best wishes, > Philipp Mit freundlichen gr??en, Rich Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Server Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.PDPplanet.org/ http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From RichA at vulcan.com Mon Oct 26 18:00:15 2009 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2009 16:00:15 -0700 Subject: Kiel PDP-10 [was RE: pdp8/e frontpanel lamps] In-Reply-To: References: <4AE4FFAF.4080200@hachti.de> from "Philipp Hachtmann" at Oct 26, 9 02:47:27 am Message-ID: > From: Tony Duell > Sent: Monday, October 26, 2009 12:22 PM >>> If it were in the hands of someone who actually carecd about it, could it >>> be made to run? >> The "never run again" comes from the DEC service engineer. > Sounds like he needs educating into the behaviour of classic computer > enthusiasts :-) > Put it this way, if I was nearer, I'd be inclined to try to accept that > as a challenge. It would take me more than a year, sure. I would spend a > lot of time reading documentation for a machine I've never worked on > before, sure. But even if I say so myself, I am _darn sure_ I'd get it > going in the end. And the same applies to a dozen other people I know. Amen. Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Server Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.PDPplanet.org/ http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From RichA at vulcan.com Mon Oct 26 18:06:48 2009 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2009 16:06:48 -0700 Subject: Kiel PDP-10 [was RE: pdp8/e frontpanel lamps] In-Reply-To: <4AE602D1.6010203@verizon.net> References: <4AE602D1.6010203@verizon.net> Message-ID: > From: Allison > Sent: Monday, October 26, 2009 1:13 PM [ responding to Tony Duell's comments regarding "Never run again" ] > The ususal reason for that pronouncement is the backplane is summarily > messedup beyond belief. In some cases due to shorts or other "errors" > large sections of wire wrap being cooked. (I presume this is an early > 10 and not a 20). That also means that any board plugged into it is > suspect as well. Many hours of proble and verify, unpowered! This is almost certainly a KI10-based system, so a very early DECsystem-10. (The marketing name was coined for these systems, to move away from the small-system connotation that had overtaken "PDP-x".) > Repairable yes, lots of work big time yes. Worth fixing during it's > commercial days, rarely. In commercial days, a backplane that screwed up (a Technical Term(TM)) would have been pulled and returned to the factory. I saw that done on a KL10 at Stanford. > At a minimum it should be kept intact as an example if parts cannot be > used to restore another. Absolutely. Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Server Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.PDPplanet.org/ http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From RichA at vulcan.com Mon Oct 26 18:34:48 2009 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2009 16:34:48 -0700 Subject: Rescued documentation issues In-Reply-To: References: <4AE4F98E.5090605@hachti.de> <4AE5DF61.2070508@bitsavers.org> <4AE60761.7020309@hachti.de> Message-ID: > From: Ian King > Sent: Monday, October 26, 2009 3:22 PM >> From: Philipp Hachtmann >> Sent: Monday, October 26, 2009 1:33 PM >>> This is a tough one. What I'm finding is there is very little >>> detailed documentation that has been archived on how systems were >>> built, along with the applications that ran them for exactly the >>> reasons you give. The best you find are overviews in the trade >>> publications of the time. >> Hm, overviews could be of greater historic interest. I used google and >> it seems that my docs belong to a paper making machine control system. >> And it seems that those are still around somewhere. >> What you get from technicians in most cases is not what gives you the >> "big picture" of a system rather than drowns you in detail. >> For the paper thing, I have binders and binders and binders full of >> flowchart diagrams, listings, more diagrams, ECOs, memos etc. >> But I have not yet found the machine's design documents or something >> that gives me an overview. > Of course, there's always a counterexample, and I'm going to offer one. > One of my colleagues needed to decipher some 'images' of DECtapes that > were created by simply extracting track contents (essentially, recording > the read head output) into a disk file on a modern PC. Interpreting > those images required in-depth research regarding DECtape media format > and the use of same by various DEC operating systems and utilities. It's OK, Ian, you can use my name. ;-) And in case anyone is wondering, the original extraction was intentionally obfuscated, over and above the binary dump factor. >>> Are historians going to be interested in artifacts to this level of >>> detail? >> My (little) experience would say: Not really. > I am! I am! :-) My position, that detail is important, is premised on > the belief that if we are committed to preserving the history of > information technology, we need to preserve the artifacts as *working* > systems. > But I also recognize the practical challenges of saving the immense > amount of information created over the last few decades. Saving it in > physical format requires a great deal of space and curatorial care (to > avoid damage over time and to provide meaningful access to it) and even > the finest such program can be rendered moot by a random spark. Saving > it in electronic format is labor-intensive and runs the risk of loss of > information through noise in the process (i.e. scan quality) or the > obsolescence of storage and representation formats. I've had numerous > conversations with Library Science types regarding the latter problem. > It's a hard one. I'd like to think that everyone is familiar with "The Digital Rosetta Stone" http://www.ercim.org/publication/ws-proceedings/DELOS6/rosetta.pdf but I'll post the URL just in case, and point out what my printing press owning friends know: That paper has a known lifetime of hundreds of years, and the only longer term medium to date is inscriptions in stone. Never discard the paper just because you have converted the information content to an electronic or chemical form. If you don't have room for it, pass it on to the next individual who also cares about these things. Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Server Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.PDPplanet.org/ http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Oct 26 19:09:49 2009 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2009 17:09:49 -0700 Subject: Rescued documentation issues In-Reply-To: References: <4AE4F98E.5090605@hachti.de> <4AE5DF61.2070508@bitsavers.org> <4AE60761.7020309@hachti.de> Message-ID: <4AE63A4D.4040009@bitsavers.org> Rich Alderson wrote: > Never discard the paper just because you have converted the information > content to an electronic or chemical form. Easy to say when you work for a billionaire. Storage space costs real money, and the payments never stop. I know people who have lost collections because they couldn't afford the rent to store it. I also know people who are out of work in the valley right now who are downsizing their collections to be able to survive. From hachti at hachti.de Mon Oct 26 19:40:25 2009 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2009 01:40:25 +0100 Subject: Rescued documentation issues In-Reply-To: <4AE63A4D.4040009@bitsavers.org> References: <4AE4F98E.5090605@hachti.de> <4AE5DF61.2070508@bitsavers.org> <4AE60761.7020309@hachti.de> <4AE63A4D.4040009@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4AE64179.2000507@hachti.de> > Easy to say when you work for a billionaire. Oh, yes... You could ask your boss to send me some money - if it's enough for living plus massive amounts of space, I'll gladly dedicate myself to installing the brand new European Computer History Center where I can pile up, inventorize, scan, repair, exhibit and program all the stuff I like to play with -- a few million Euro would be a good starting point .-) > Storage space costs real money, and the payments never stop. Yes, that's common reality :-( > I know people who have lost collections because they couldn't > afford the rent to store it. That's one of my concerns since I started collecting stuff... I always have a kind of "core collection list" in mind that I would try to preserve at any cost (if necessary, I'd sleep on it). But that has in fact become the smaller part of the stuff I currently have :-( So thinking about storage has become a major part of the "hobby". The RP drives are still sitting in an open garage somewhere. Not good. Will move stuff soon. But it's difficult to find space. And.... I'm considered insane by many people who know me. They say "get rid of that stuff, that's junk" or such alike. So it's not easy at all to be a vintage computer collector. I feel quite alone with it here in northern Germany... > I also know people who are out of > work in the valley right now who are downsizing their collections > to be able to survive. Must be one of the reasons for the massive amount of minicomputers on eBay during the last months/year? Best wishes, Philipp From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Oct 26 20:37:26 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2009 21:37:26 -0400 Subject: Rescued documentation issues In-Reply-To: <4AE4F98E.5090605@hachti.de> References: <4AE4F98E.5090605@hachti.de> Message-ID: > c) Documentation for individual applications like a paper mill or the > airport information system that don't exist anymore. There is the possibility that the industries that these applications were made for probably have historic groups themselves, and they might be interested. For example, if one of us were to find software, or even unit record procedures, about how the railroads dealt with car classification, I know of a couple of train geeks that sure would like to have it. -- Will From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Oct 26 22:33:32 2009 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2009 20:33:32 -0700 Subject: Rescued documentation issues In-Reply-To: References: <4AE4F98E.5090605@hachti.de> <4AE5DF61.2070508@bitsavers.org> <4AE60761.7020309@hachti.de> Message-ID: At 4:34 PM -0700 10/26/09, Rich Alderson wrote: >Never discard the paper just because you have converted the information >content to an electronic or chemical form. If you don't have room for >it, pass it on to the next individual who also cares about these things. This is advice to live by, and I do just that. That is why I am involved with the CBHRC. Our society is moving away from storing knowledge in easy to preserve (and freely share) forms. I fear that future generations will realize what a mistake this is. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From IanK at vulcan.com Mon Oct 26 23:34:11 2009 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2009 21:34:11 -0700 Subject: Rescued documentation issues In-Reply-To: References: <4AE4F98E.5090605@hachti.de> <4AE5DF61.2070508@bitsavers.org> <4AE60761.7020309@hachti.de> Message-ID: >-----Original Message----- >From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- >bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Zane H. Healy >Sent: Monday, October 26, 2009 8:34 PM >To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >Subject: RE: Rescued documentation issues > >At 4:34 PM -0700 10/26/09, Rich Alderson wrote: >>Never discard the paper just because you have converted the information >>content to an electronic or chemical form. If you don't have room for >>it, pass it on to the next individual who also cares about these >things. > >This is advice to live by, and I do just that. That is why I am >involved with the CBHRC. Our society is moving away from storing >knowledge in easy to preserve (and freely share) forms. I fear that >future generations will realize what a mistake this is. > >Zane > As I said in my original email, there are people who are working on those problems. It behooves all of us to work closely with them. They tend to be museums and libraries. Sometimes they don't LOOK like museums and libraries as we've come to know them, but that's because the challenge has become something different than when we just wondered where to stack all the books. But they are still working on the core problem: how do We (the societal We) ensure that we don't forget what we know. -- Ian From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Mon Oct 26 23:52:34 2009 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2009 21:52:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: rackmount furniture Message-ID: Has anyone here tried to disguise a 19-inch rack as some sort of unobtrusive piece of furniture? I'm pondering making a bench or sideboard-like thing to compactly conceal computer equipment. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu From evan at snarc.net Tue Oct 27 00:02:48 2009 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2009 01:02:48 -0400 Subject: rackmount furniture In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4AE67EF8.2000205@snarc.net> >>> Has anyone here tried to disguise a 19-inch rack as some sort of unobtrusive piece of furniture? I'm pondering making a bench or sideboard-like thing to compactly conceal computer equipment. You could make a simple hinged plywood door to cover the front of the rack. Paint or stain the public-facing side, and then hang pictures or a large vertical mirror on it. From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Oct 27 00:49:42 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2009 01:49:42 -0400 Subject: rackmount furniture In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > Has anyone here tried to disguise a 19-inch rack as some sort of unobtrusive > piece of furniture? ?I'm pondering making a bench or sideboard-like thing to > compactly conceal computer equipment. These are available commercially. -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Oct 27 00:56:59 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2009 01:56:59 -0400 Subject: TU56 lamp replacement In-Reply-To: References: <200910261542.55784.pat@computer-refuge.org> <4AE603C0.5090500@hachti.de> Message-ID: > This was once somewhat common. ?Some of the CRTs made for high-end oscilloscopes were so complex that it was fiscally prudent to replace the filament when it burned out. ?-- Ian Common TV CRTs were also rebuilt in the 1950s. Earlier this year I sold some 4CX50000s to a power tube rebuilder, and he gave a nickel tour of his plant. Very cool - he could (and did) take apart a number of scrap tubes, use the parts, and make a good one out of the pile. On a related note, I am in need of a 21M44P31A tube for a Cyber console. Tube rebuilding is not an option, as the phosphor has been splotched due to the breaking of the neck. -- Will From rodsmallwood at btconnect.com Tue Oct 27 01:55:30 2009 From: rodsmallwood at btconnect.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2009 06:55:30 -0000 Subject: Kiel PDP-10 [was RE: pdp8/e frontpanel lamps] In-Reply-To: <4AE602D1.6010203@verizon.net> References: <4AE602D1.6010203@verizon.net> Message-ID: <39A5BCC5FAB644FAAECA9737DC598535@EDIConsultingLtd.local> Are there any DEC 10's running elsewhere? If not, then this one could become the only one. If there are others. Then talk to whoever runs them. At least their knowledge will be more current than your disinterested retired board swapper. Regards Rod Smallwood -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Allison Sent: 26 October 2009 20:13 To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only Subject: Re: Kiel PDP-10 [was RE: pdp8/e frontpanel lamps] The ususal reason for that pronouncement is the backplane is summarily messedup beyond belief. In some cases due to shorts or other "errors" large sections of wire wrap being cooked. (I presume this is an early 10 and not a 20). That also means that any board plugged into it is suspect as well. Many hours of proble and verify, unpowered! Repairable yes, lots of work big time yes. Worth fixing during it's commercial days, rarely. At a minimum it should be kept intact as an example if parts cannot be used to restore another. Allison Tony Duell wrote: >> > If it were in the hands of someone who actually carecd about it, >> could it be >> > made to run? >> >> The "never run again" comes from the DEC service engineer. He told the >> Kiel official people (and me) that it would be possible (if the docs and >> cables etc. were still there, of course) to get the system back to work. >> But for that he would need at least one year of work (3 month to move >> the system from one building to another, with 4 people!!). He is sure >> that nobody else would be able to get it running. And he is not >> > > Sounds like he needs educating into the behaviour of classic computer > enthusiasts :-) > > Put it this way, if I was nearer, I'd be inclined to try to accept that > as a challenge. It would take me more than a year, sure. I would spend a > lot of time reading documentation for a machine I've never worked on > before, sure. But even if I say so myself, I am _darn sure_ I'd get it > going in the end. And the same applies to a dozen other people I know. > > -tony > > From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Oct 27 02:11:30 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2009 03:11:30 -0400 Subject: Kiel PDP-10 [was RE: pdp8/e frontpanel lamps] In-Reply-To: <39A5BCC5FAB644FAAECA9737DC598535@EDIConsultingLtd.local> References: <4AE602D1.6010203@verizon.net> <39A5BCC5FAB644FAAECA9737DC598535@EDIConsultingLtd.local> Message-ID: > Are there any DEC 10's running elsewhere? Apart from the obvious, a few KS10s remain operational in private hands, although not always powered up. It would not surprise me if one or two KL10s or KS10s were still in real world production environments as well (even after the Great Purge). -- Will From thrashbarg at kaput.homeunix.org Tue Oct 27 02:21:57 2009 From: thrashbarg at kaput.homeunix.org (Alexis) Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2009 17:51:57 +1030 Subject: Trouble installing system on a Macintosh Quadra 660AV In-Reply-To: <200910261247.n9QClIFV015172@floodgap.com> References: <200910261247.n9QClIFV015172@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <200910271751.58052.thrashbarg@kaput.homeunix.org> On Mon, 26 Oct 2009 11:17:18 pm Cameron Kaiser wrote: > I wonder if there is a logic board problem if none of the later versions > will run. I was thinking the same. My Apple Personal Diagnostics disk is shot so I can't test it... Alexis. From pontus at Update.UU.SE Tue Oct 27 03:07:23 2009 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2009 09:07:23 +0100 Subject: Rescued documentation issues In-Reply-To: <4AE64179.2000507@hachti.de> References: <4AE4F98E.5090605@hachti.de> <4AE5DF61.2070508@bitsavers.org> <4AE60761.7020309@hachti.de> <4AE63A4D.4040009@bitsavers.org> <4AE64179.2000507@hachti.de> Message-ID: <20091027080722.GA16128@Update.UU.SE> > That's one of my concerns since I started collecting stuff... I > always have a kind of "core collection list" in mind that I would > try to preserve at any cost (if necessary, I'd sleep on it). In these cases it is good to know other interested persons that can help you out, should you ever find yourself in a crisis. However, that notion makes me hope the people I know can maintain their collections, otherwise my house would quickly be swamped :) > And.... I'm considered insane by many people who know me. They say > "get rid of that stuff, that's junk" or such alike. So it's not easy > at all to be a vintage computer collector. I feel quite alone with > it here in northern Germany... "Insane" is a very relative term, my brother in law spends countless hours on his sailboat and my father with his horses... I would consider myself insane if I ever started thinking about doing what they are doing. I don't think you are insane, in fact, your cause is very noteworthy. Also, northern germany and sweden is not that far apart, in the USA you and I would probably be considered "close". Kind Regards, Pontus. From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Tue Oct 27 03:14:06 2009 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2009 09:14:06 +0100 Subject: Kiel PDP-10 [was RE: pdp8/e frontpanel lamps] In-Reply-To: <39A5BCC5FAB644FAAECA9737DC598535@EDIConsultingLtd.local> References: <4AE602D1.6010203@verizon.net> <39A5BCC5FAB644FAAECA9737DC598535@EDIConsultingLtd.local> Message-ID: <20091027091406.6fb8f6cd.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Tue, 27 Oct 2009 06:55:30 -0000 "Rod Smallwood" wrote: > Are there any DEC 10's running elsewhere? At least a vew years ago the Lule? Academic Computer Society (Computer Society at Lule? University of Technology) used to have a runable DECsystem 2065. There was a nice galery featuring many interresting machines (VAX 8850, Norsk Data, ...). But the website has been WiKified (puke) and now the galery is gone. -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From chrise at pobox.com Mon Oct 26 10:47:44 2009 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2009 10:47:44 -0500 Subject: HP 2748B bulb replacement In-Reply-To: <4AE57EA8.8030507@hachti.de> References: <4AE3B1F5.D038FC6A@cs.ubc.ca> <4AE3617F.13816.26FD868@cclist.sydex.com> <20091025185107.GV6839@n0jcf.net> <4AE57EA8.8030507@hachti.de> Message-ID: <20091026154744.GC6839@n0jcf.net> On Monday (10/26/2009 at 11:49AM +0100), Philipp Hachtmann wrote: > Hi Chris, > > > > > http://www.jkllamps.com/ > > > Thank you for the link! > >> I recently had to find some "grain-of-rice" lamps to replace those burned >> out in the illumination side of an HP 2748B optical paper tape reader. > And? Which lamp did you use? That device is not too uncommon. So it > would probably good to know. My lamp is still ok. But I don't really use > the machine. Hi Philipp, My apologies for not telling the whole story. I used the JKL model #7153 to replace the lamps in the HP2748B. There are 10 lamps in series in that unit and a pot that adjusts the brightness of all of them together. There's approx 50V across all ten, so each bulb should see about 5V across it. One of the lamps is used as a reference and does not shine across the tape. Nine of them do though, eight are data holes and one is the feed hole. The #7153 bulbs were US $0.75 each so I bought 20 of them as a life-time supply. There is a small PCB inside the head of the 2748B which these 10 bulbs are soldered to. It's a bit tricky to align the bulbs with the holes in the head once you have removed this PCB but I had luck poking and pushing them with a small screwdriver until each one dropped into place. I haven't finished my microcontroller interface to the 2748B yet but the tests in the service manual indicate that the replaced bulbs are doing the job nicely. Chris -- Chris Elmquist From ohh at panix.com Mon Oct 26 11:21:34 2009 From: ohh at panix.com (O. Sharp) Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2009 12:21:34 -0400 (EDT) Subject: pdp8/e frontpanel lamps In-Reply-To: References: <4AE4DA2A.1040409@hachti.de> <4AE4E922.9080809@hachti.de> Message-ID: Vincent Slyngstad wrote, in part: > If the PDP-10 panels are 54-08458 Peripheral Indicator panels, then those use > OL-2. The only thing that I am positive uses the OL-1 is the 8/i (and > presumably the PDP-12?). Yes, the -12 also uses OL-1s. A few years ago I got a tip from a guy at WAMCO who used to sell OL-1s to DEC, and found a large stock of OL-1s at Candela (though they called them "OL-1-i"s, the "i" being for "import"). The price was good, the lamps were good, and I went back later to get a stock of spares. That was about four years ago, so I would hope they'd still have them in stock. They're online at http://www.candelacorp.com . -O.- From jlobocki at gmail.com Mon Oct 26 11:59:27 2009 From: jlobocki at gmail.com (joe lobocki) Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2009 11:59:27 -0500 Subject: Menu builder script for MS-DOS? In-Reply-To: References: <4AE50939.2010609@atarimuseum.com> <4AE51E17.7060302@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: its funny, I was just thinking about this the other day, i was planning on building a dos menu for my ibm ps2-25 that i was going to netboot, trying to emulate lanschool, which at the time, was a simple menu that kept you out of the dos-interworkings. although, that menu had the highlight bar that moved as you clicked the arrows, will any of these systems do this? On Mon, Oct 26, 2009 at 8:42 AM, Dan Gahlinger wrote: > > You might also want to check out a cool little utility > called "Snobol" > > It was actually a "programming language" *cough* (not really!) > > I remember ez-menu very well, and it was very simple to use, > snobol is another one, and it's incredibly simple. > > we had a retail store running off of snobol for years. > > and if I remember correctly, snobol could do things ez-menu couldn't, > depending what you needed. > on the linux side, check out "dialog", I don't know if there's a dos > equivalent. > > Just some suggestions... > > Dan. > > _________________________________________________________________ > Ready for a deal-of-a-lifetime? See fantastic offers on Windows 7, in one > convenient place. > http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9691634 From wgungfu at gmail.com Mon Oct 26 22:32:56 2009 From: wgungfu at gmail.com (Martin Goldberg) Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2009 22:32:56 -0500 Subject: Request for computer displays at 2010 Midwest Gaming Classic Message-ID: <2c768b1e0910262032x1a9db063v758d54999871f3dc@mail.gmail.com> Heya all, doing the annual display request for the museum hall of the Midwest Gaming Classic. Looking for people from the list who specialize in classic computers to run a display area for their computer of choice at the show. I cover the bulk of of the pre-'84 consoles and computers, so it's harder for me to set up as dedicated a display as somone who specializes. The MGC is an all encompasing electronic entertainment show (consoles, computers and coin-ops from past to present). We hit around 4000 people this past year's show, and are expecting even more growth with the move closer in to Milwaukee this year (we're at about 30,000 sq. ft now as well). Besides the retro crowd, most of our actual attendance are the casual and family gamers of all ages, so it's a chance to expose this great hobby to a newer generation. Currently we have people coming to support their own Commodore and TI areas. Here's photos from the show this past March to give everyone a feel for the show: Museum area http://www.flickr.com/photos/91071283 at N00/sets/72157615834963880/ Underdog Chamber (also in the museum hall) http://www.flickr.com/photos/91071283 at N00/sets/72157615746538685/ Family Game Room (also in the museum hall) http://www.flickr.com/photos/91071283 at N00/sets/72157615835258766/ Competition Area http://www.flickr.com/photos/91071283 at N00/sets/72157615745281965/ Coin-ops http://www.flickr.com/photos/91071283 at N00/sets/72157615745260231/ Vendling hall http://www.flickr.com/photos/91071283 at N00/sets/72157615745200729/ It's Saturday, March 27, 2010 from 10:00am to 8:00pm and Sunday, March 28, 2010 from 10:00am to 5:00pm, at the at the Brookfield Sheraton, just outside Milwaukee, Wisconsin. Please contact me if you're interested in helping out, or midwestgamingclassic.com if you're interested in the show in general. Thanks! Marty From ian_primus at yahoo.com Tue Oct 27 07:42:21 2009 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2009 12:42:21 +0000 (GMT) Subject: rackmount furniture In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <169490.30521.qm@web52607.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- On Tue, 10/27/09, David Griffith wrote: > Has anyone here tried to disguise a 19-inch rack as some > sort of unobtrusive piece of furniture? I'm pondering > making a bench or sideboard-like thing to compactly conceal > computer equipment. No, I haven't tried anything like that before - but I'm quite adept at doing the opposite - concealing furniture with computer equipment. -Ian From dgahling at hotmail.com Tue Oct 27 08:42:39 2009 From: dgahling at hotmail.com (Dan Gahlinger) Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2009 09:42:39 -0400 Subject: Menu builder script for MS-DOS? In-Reply-To: References: <4AE50939.2010609@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: Menu systems to check out: "ez-menu" "Automenu" and "Snobol" (programming language, but anyone can do it) Dan. > Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2009 11:59:27 -0500 > Subject: Re: Menu builder script for MS-DOS? > From: jlobocki at gmail.com > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > > its funny, I was just thinking about this the other day, i was planning on > building a dos menu for my ibm ps2-25 that i was going to netboot, trying to > emulate lanschool, which at the time, was a simple menu that kept you out of > the dos-interworkings. although, that menu had the highlight bar that moved > as you clicked the arrows, will any of these systems do this? > > On Mon, Oct 26, 2009 at 8:42 AM, Dan Gahlinger wrote: > > > > > You might also want to check out a cool little utility > > called "Snobol" > > > > It was actually a "programming language" *cough* (not really!) > > > > I remember ez-menu very well, and it was very simple to use, > > snobol is another one, and it's incredibly simple. > > > > we had a retail store running off of snobol for years. > > > > and if I remember correctly, snobol could do things ez-menu couldn't, > > depending what you needed. > > on the linux side, check out "dialog", I don't know if there's a dos > > equivalent. > > > > Just some suggestions... > > > > Dan. > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Ready for a deal-of-a-lifetime? See fantastic offers on Windows 7, in one > > convenient place. > > http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9691634 _________________________________________________________________ CDN College or University student? Get Windows 7 for only $39.99 before Jan 3! Buy it now! http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9691636 From dgahling at hotmail.com Tue Oct 27 08:54:18 2009 From: dgahling at hotmail.com (Dan Gahlinger) Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2009 09:54:18 -0400 Subject: Rescued documentation issues In-Reply-To: References: <4AE4F98E.5090605@hachti.de> <4AE5DF61.2070508@bitsavers.org> <4AE60761.7020309@hachti.de> Message-ID: HOW is this a mistake? The whole point is to make it "easy to preserve" and "freely share". Everything that goes against that just suppresses knowledge and information. The best way to preserve something is to: 1. make it as easy to get a hold of as possible 2. make it available in an easy to replicate format 3. ensure as many people as possible can get a copy if they need/want one In the end, having it in a universally available format (PDF for example) and available on the web would be best. Can someone explain why "hording" documentation and keeping it private on a "degradable" media like paper is a better idea? Dan. > Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2009 20:33:32 -0700 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > From: healyzh at aracnet.com > Subject: RE: Rescued documentation issues > > At 4:34 PM -0700 10/26/09, Rich Alderson wrote: > >Never discard the paper just because you have converted the information > >content to an electronic or chemical form. If you don't have room for > >it, pass it on to the next individual who also cares about these things. > > This is advice to live by, and I do just that. That is why I am > involved with the CBHRC. Our society is moving away from storing > knowledge in easy to preserve (and freely share) forms. I fear that > future generations will realize what a mistake this is. > > Zane > > > -- > | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | > | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | > | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | > +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ > | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | > | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | > | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | _________________________________________________________________ Save up to 84% on Windows 7 until Jan 3?eligible CDN College & University students only. Hurry?buy it now for $39.99! http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9691635 From IanK at vulcan.com Tue Oct 27 09:43:23 2009 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2009 07:43:23 -0700 Subject: Kiel PDP-10 [was RE: pdp8/e frontpanel lamps] In-Reply-To: References: <4AE602D1.6010203@verizon.net> <39A5BCC5FAB644FAAECA9737DC598535@EDIConsultingLtd.local>, Message-ID: http://www.livingcomputermuseum.org Our 2065 runs nearly 24x7 and is accessible on the Internet. We're restoring a 2020 soon. And we'd LOVE to get our hands on a KI-10 (and a KA, too!) - we'd get those running. That's what we do. :-) -- Ian ________________________________________ From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of William Donzelli [wdonzelli at gmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, October 27, 2009 12:11 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Kiel PDP-10 [was RE: pdp8/e frontpanel lamps] > Are there any DEC 10's running elsewhere? Apart from the obvious, a few KS10s remain operational in private hands, although not always powered up. It would not surprise me if one or two KL10s or KS10s were still in real world production environments as well (even after the Great Purge). -- Will From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Tue Oct 27 10:51:32 2009 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2009 08:51:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: rackmount furniture In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 27 Oct 2009, William Donzelli wrote: >> Has anyone here tried to disguise a 19-inch rack as some sort of unobtrusive >> piece of furniture? ?I'm pondering making a bench or sideboard-like thing to >> compactly conceal computer equipment. > > These are available commercially. URL? -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Oct 27 10:58:36 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2009 11:58:36 -0400 Subject: rackmount furniture In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > URL? Google? -- Will From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Tue Oct 27 11:03:22 2009 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2009 17:03:22 +0100 Subject: rackmount furniture In-Reply-To: <169490.30521.qm@web52607.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <169490.30521.qm@web52607.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20091027170322.69d3ff18.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Tue, 27 Oct 2009 12:42:21 +0000 (GMT) Mr Ian Primus wrote: > No, I haven't tried anything like that before - but I'm quite adept > at doing the opposite - concealing furniture with computer equipment. >From "TOP TEN SIGNS THAT YOU'RE A VAX GEEK" by Brian Chase 8. You stopped purchasing new furniture when you realized that your computers work just as well. My desk consists of an empty VAX4000 DSSI disk box, a VAXstation 3100 + storage expansion and a Sun 3/260. The workbench in my machine room is build on top of a VAX4000-200 and a HP9000-750. -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From IanK at vulcan.com Tue Oct 27 11:50:55 2009 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2009 09:50:55 -0700 Subject: rackmount furniture In-Reply-To: <169490.30521.qm@web52607.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <169490.30521.qm@web52607.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Mr Ian Primus > Sent: Tuesday, October 27, 2009 5:42 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: rackmount furniture > > --- On Tue, 10/27/09, David Griffith wrote: > > > Has anyone here tried to disguise a 19-inch rack as some > > sort of unobtrusive piece of furniture? I'm pondering > > making a bench or sideboard-like thing to compactly conceal > > computer equipment. > > No, I haven't tried anything like that before - but I'm quite adept at > doing the opposite - concealing furniture with computer equipment. > > -Ian I've concealed entire *rooms* with computer equipment! - Ian (the other one) From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Tue Oct 27 12:00:08 2009 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2009 10:00:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: rackmount furniture In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 27 Oct 2009, William Donzelli wrote: >> URL? > > Google? I was hoping for something you might have had in mind. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From cclist at sydex.com Tue Oct 27 13:17:48 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2009 10:17:48 -0800 Subject: rackmount furniture In-Reply-To: References: , , Message-ID: <4AE6C8CC.32234.6EEF79@cclist.sydex.com> On 27 Oct 2009 at 10:00, David Griffith wrote: > I was hoping for something you might have had in mind. How about this? http://www.ksipro.com/pdfs/Fpremiercarts.pdf I've heard of some people building EIA rackmount setups into spare closets also... Just shut the door and it's gone. Cheers, Chuck From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Tue Oct 27 13:18:05 2009 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2009 19:18:05 +0100 Subject: rackmount furniture In-Reply-To: <20091027170322.69d3ff18.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <169490.30521.qm@web52607.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <20091027170322.69d3ff18.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Namens Jochen Kunz > Verzonden: dinsdag 27 oktober 2009 17:03 > Aan: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Onderwerp: Re: rackmount furniture > > On Tue, 27 Oct 2009 12:42:21 +0000 (GMT) Mr Ian Primus > wrote: > > > No, I haven't tried anything like that before - but I'm > quite adept > >at doing the opposite - concealing furniture with computer equipment. > >From "TOP TEN SIGNS THAT YOU'RE A VAX GEEK" by Brian Chase > > 8. You stopped purchasing new furniture when you realized that > your computers work just as well. > > My desk consists of an empty VAX4000 DSSI disk box, a > VAXstation 3100 + storage expansion and a Sun 3/260. > > The workbench in my machine room is build on top of a > VAX4000-200 and a HP9000-750. Blasfemy, you are not to use any HP as bench ;-) You'll getting trouble with the great Bill and Dave, ESD will struck you !! (over voice) DEC is o.k. a vax is perfectly usable for storage or...... > -- > > > tsch??, > Jochen > > Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ > > > -Rik From tshoppa at wmata.com Tue Oct 27 13:28:19 2009 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim) Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2009 14:28:19 -0400 Subject: No subject Message-ID: Dan writes: > In the end, having it in a universally available format (PDF for example) > and available on the web would be best. > Can someone explain why "hording" documentation and keeping it private on > a "degradable" media like paper is a better idea? I certainly agree that the extreme of hoarding everything in one place is the worst possible scenario. I don't even think that hoard is necessarily the word most would use; think of Don Maslin's careful archive of every CP/M boot floppy ever, that was by no means a hoard because he shared it, one piece at a time with whoever needed it, but because it was all concentrated in one place it's now gone. Don and I had talked about hosting disk images etc. but we never got it done in general. But I don't think anyone so far has said that they would hoard it that way. Everyone agrees that PDF's for electronic distribution are a real win. Those who are seriously into it also know: 1. Scanning books without lopping off the spine can make for some pretty crappy scans. 2. After you're done, you gotta do something with the remaining paper. 3. In many (most!) cases the paper is already decaying. 4. There's just such a huge quantity of books, and manuals, and printsets, and they've already decayed some, and they're all gonna decay more. Tim. From molists at yahoo.com Tue Oct 27 14:08:15 2009 From: molists at yahoo.com (Mo) Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2009 12:08:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: annoying ebay behavior In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <34394.3203.qm@web45301.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> --- On Sat, 10/17/09, Teo Zenios wrote: > From: Teo Zenios > Subject: Re: annoying ebay behavior > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Date: Saturday, October 17, 2009, 1:39 PM > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Ben" > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Sent: Saturday, October 17, 2009 4:19 PM > Subject: Re: annoying ebay behavior > > > > Teo Zenios wrote: > > > >>> sale. I wish people knowing they must clear > stock give at least > >>> a month notice. > >>> Ben. > >> > >> If they had a month they would just ebay the stuff > anyway. > > > > I suspect not,? most of the sales I have seen are > 'pick up only'. > > Ebay means you have to ship the product. > > > > > > > > There are a decent amount of pick up only auctions on ebay, > I have even won > one a year or so ago. Things might have changed since ebay > wants everything > to be paypal only and sellers would have a problem proving > something was > picked up compared to shipped with a tracking number. Pickup-only auctions are the exception that don't mandate paypal. Shipping with a tracking number and the signature of the buyer WILL NOT protect you in any way from Paypal's tactics. Ebay's new terms, the paypal requirement, along with phenomenal increases in shipping costs, have taken away the marginal profits one used to make cleaning the closet. One would hope that Google or Bing would step up, but largess isn't any guarantee for success. From RichA at vulcan.com Tue Oct 27 15:28:54 2009 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2009 13:28:54 -0700 Subject: Rescued documentation issues In-Reply-To: <4AE63A4D.4040009@bitsavers.org> References: <4AE4F98E.5090605@hachti.de> <4AE5DF61.2070508@bitsavers.org> <4AE60761.7020309@hachti.de> <4AE63A4D.4040009@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: > From: Al Kossow > Sent: Monday, October 26, 2009 5:10 PM > Rich Alderson wrote: >> Never discard the paper just because you have converted the information >> content to an electronic or chemical form. > Easy to say when you work for a billionaire. I suspect that the budget here is far less than the one you work with. You also snipped a very important part of what I said: Once you are done with the paper, to your own satisfaction, pass the paper along to someone else who may have other resources, or who may lack resources that you think are so common that everybody must have them. > Storage space costs real money, and the payments never stop. I know. I have one of those, too. Remember that I, like you, don't only do this as a profession. > I know people who have lost collections because they couldn't > afford the rent to store it. I also know people who are out of > work in the valley right now who are downsizing their collections > to be able to survive. You and I are very lucky. We're getting paid to do something that we would otherwise have to pay for ourselves. We both know people who have lost their jobs in the current economy, who must make difficult personal decisions. Rich From RichA at vulcan.com Tue Oct 27 15:50:09 2009 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2009 13:50:09 -0700 Subject: Rescued documentation issues In-Reply-To: References: <4AE4F98E.5090605@hachti.de> <4AE5DF61.2070508@bitsavers.org> <4AE60761.7020309@hachti.de> Message-ID: > From: Dan Gahlinger > Sent: Tuesday, October 27, 2009 6:54 AM >> Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2009 20:33:32 -0700 >> From: healyzh at aracnet.com >> At 4:34 PM -0700 10/26/09, Rich Alderson wrote: >>> Never discard the paper just because you have converted the information >>> content to an electronic or chemical form. If you don't have room for >>> it, pass it on to the next individual who also cares about these things. >> >> This is advice to live by, and I do just that. That is why I am >> involved with the CBHRC. Our society is moving away from storing >> knowledge in easy to preserve (and freely share) forms. I fear that >> future generations will realize what a mistake this is. > HOW is this a mistake? When information is only stored electronically, those who cannot afford electronics are disenfranchised with respect to that information. When information is only stored electronically, the free flow of that information is far more easily disrupted, both by intent (consider the actions of commercial networks in the U. S., or of hostile governments) and by accident (the point raised in the Rosetta Stone paper I referenced earlier). > The whole point is to make it "easy to preserve" and "freely share". > Everything that goes against that just suppresses knowledge and information. Absolutely. Agree completely. I simply believe that the new technologies currently in use have been convincingly shown not to scale as well as the older one they are attempting to replace. Yes, there are people working to improve same, as Ian points out, but they are nowhere near the end of the task they have taken on, and things have to be preserved until then. > The best way to preserve something is to: > 1. make it as easy to get a hold of as possible > 2. make it available in an easy to replicate format > 3. ensure as many people as possible can get a copy if they need/want one All true. Now, what's your issue with paper? > In the end, having it in a universally available format (PDF for example) > and available on the web would be best. Until everyone can have access to the PDF, it is no better than a piece of paper, and it is at least as fragile. > Can someone explain why "hording" documentation and keeping it private on > a "degradable" media like paper is a better idea? Please point out to us where anyone advocated the hoarding of documentation. Please point out how paper (which can last for 2000 years) is more degradable than a CDROM that uses a dye technology with an expected shelf life of less than 30. Or than disk drives which are subject to mechanical as well as electronic failures in a far shorter time span. Please explain what the use of silly scare quotes does for your question. Rich From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Oct 27 15:57:32 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2009 16:57:32 -0400 Subject: Rescued documentation issues In-Reply-To: References: <4AE4F98E.5090605@hachti.de> <4AE5DF61.2070508@bitsavers.org> <4AE60761.7020309@hachti.de> Message-ID: > When information is only stored electronically, those who cannot afford > electronics are disenfranchised with respect to that information. I do not know how it is out by you, but here out East, even a bum can use the computers to get on the net at the library. -- Will From dgahling at hotmail.com Tue Oct 27 16:17:17 2009 From: dgahling at hotmail.com (Dan Gahlinger) Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2009 17:17:17 -0400 Subject: Rescued documentation issues In-Reply-To: References: <4AE4F98E.5090605@hachti.de> <4AE5DF61.2070508@bitsavers.org> <4AE60761.7020309@hachti.de> Message-ID: This is the most nonsensical thing I've ever read in my life... > When information is only stored electronically, those who cannot afford > electronics are disenfranchised with respect to that information. So... somehow, a person with NO access to electronics is going to magically know that a paper copy of a document exists somewhere and somehow get it and copy it, all without electronics of any kind? not having an electronic copy in some form is a severe barrier to access. what are you smoking? i want some. > When information is only stored electronically, the free flow of that > information is far more easily disrupted, both by intent (consider the > actions of commercial networks in the U. S., or of hostile governments) > and by accident (the point raised in the Rosetta Stone paper I referenced > earlier). ohhhh so now it's a HUGE conspiracy theory, that the government somehow wants to keep you from accessing some old 70's fortran printout... REALLY?!? yeah, like the govt is such a HUGE barrier to documentation, somehow you can get it all on PAPER but you can't find it anywhere online? what?!? > > The whole point is to make it "easy to preserve" and "freely share". > > Everything that goes against that just suppresses knowledge and information. > > Absolutely. Agree completely. Your attitude of denying electronic copies goes against this 100% > I simply believe that the new technologies currently in use have been > convincingly shown not to scale as well as the older one they are attempting > to replace. what the hell are you talking about? You mean, it's easier and scales better to copy a bound book in BOUND form than it is to copy an electronic document? REALLY?!? Please tell me where I have cheap, easy access to book copying and binding services that don't cost a fortune... I'd love to hear it. > Yes, there are people working to improve same, as Ian points out, but they > are nowhere near the end of the task they have taken on, and things have to > be preserved until then. of course not, it takes time to build stuff, but that's not a reason to throw up your hands and go "oh well, its not perfect, so nobody gets a copy of my precious documents!" > > The best way to preserve something is to: > > 1. make it as easy to get a hold of as possible > > 2. make it available in an easy to replicate format > > 3. ensure as many people as possible can get a copy if they need/want one > > All true. Now, what's your issue with paper? paper contradicts almost all of the above... 1. right, like paper is sooo easy to get ahold of a copy, with people hording documents... uh huh and paper is soo much cheaper to copy than an electronic copy 2. like paper is soo easy to replicate, a bound book takes forever in a day, costs a fortune and is difficult 3. how does paper do this? how do I find it if its only on paper? > > In the end, having it in a universally available format (PDF for example) > > and available on the web would be best. > > Until everyone can have access to the PDF, it is no better than a piece of > paper, and it is at least as fragile. BS! PDF is not even close to being as fragile as paper. when you horde your document, as the only copy, you tear it, pour coffee on it, lose it, etc with a PDF or other type, it can be copied around readily, you lose your copy, no problem, lots of others around. and you missed the point, everyone CAN have access to PDF, public libraries have free computers to use, as do others. > > Can someone explain why "hording" documentation and keeping it private on > > a "degradable" media like paper is a better idea? > > Please point out to us where anyone advocated the hoarding of documentation. You just did, and so did the previous message. > Please point out how paper (which can last for 2000 years) is more degradable > than a CDROM that uses a dye technology with an expected shelf life of less > than 30. Or than disk drives which are subject to mechanical as well as > electronic failures in a far shorter time span. hahaha... 2000 years... ahahaha... funny. riiight.... and you missed a media. the internet. which has an infinite shelf life. beat that. > Please explain what the use of silly scare quotes does for your question. it wasn't a question, it was a response, to the person who said hording was better than sharing... Dan. _________________________________________________________________ Save up to 84% on Windows 7 until Jan 3?eligible CDN College & University students only. Hurry?buy it now for $39.99! http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9691635 From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Tue Oct 27 16:32:32 2009 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2009 22:32:32 +0100 Subject: Rescued documentation issues In-Reply-To: References: <4AE4F98E.5090605@hachti.de> <4AE5DF61.2070508@bitsavers.org> <4AE60761.7020309@hachti.de> Message-ID: "the internet. which has an infinite shelf life." most assuredly not, bit rot on the internet is rife this week geocities was shut down Dave Caroline From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Oct 27 16:06:20 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2009 21:06:20 +0000 (GMT) Subject: TU56 lamp replacement In-Reply-To: <200910261542.55784.pat@computer-refuge.org> from "Patrick Finnegan" at Oct 26, 9 03:42:55 pm Message-ID: > Personally, I'm surprised that you haven't repaired incandescent light > bulbs... or maybe you have? I have -- sort of :-) More seriously, I was repairing an HP59306 relay actuator. This unit has some 'midget flange' bulbs in the pushbutton switches, and I couldn't find a supplier who woul sell 1-offs in the UK (a couple had failed). However, I did have some wire-ended bulbs of suitable voltage and current. So I took the old midget flange bulb and cracked the glass part out with pliers. Desoldered the wires from the side of the cap and the base contact, and cleaned out the inside of the cap.. Then inserted a wire-ended bulb and soldered it in place. The result is a 'repaired' midget flange bulb that fits the HP switchbank with no modifications. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Oct 27 16:11:11 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2009 21:11:11 +0000 (GMT) Subject: TU56 lamp replacement In-Reply-To: <4AE6038C.2020500@hachti.de> from "Philipp Hachtmann" at Oct 26, 9 09:16:12 pm Message-ID: > > > > I guess I am the only person here who _repairs_ fans. I've been known to > > rewind the stator, and replace components on the control PCB. > Oh! What about the bearings?!? That's the most usual source of failure... Well, if they're ball races, I'll replace them (they are almost certainly going to be a standard size). If bushes, well, I'll take a bit of phosphor broze rod and a lathe... Perhaps I've been lucky, but I've not had much trouble with the bearings in the fans of _classic_ computers. Modern PCs are another story... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Oct 27 16:14:39 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2009 21:14:39 +0000 (GMT) Subject: TU56 lamp replacement In-Reply-To: <4AE603C0.5090500@hachti.de> from "Philipp Hachtmann" at Oct 26, 9 09:17:04 pm Message-ID: > > > > > > Personally, I'm surprised that you haven't repaired incandescent light > > bulbs... or maybe you have? > I once found some info about people who repaired CRT tubes...!! Regunning (TV) CRTs was common in the UK about 40 years ago and there were several companies who did it.I doubt, alas, any still exist Many years ago there were multiple valves made by Loewe. These were large-ish glass envelopes containing triodes _and the components to interconnect them_. A radio receiver could be made using little more than one of these devices, a tuned circuit, headphones and batteries. The first integrated circuit if you like. Anyway, apparently there was an official cervice to have the filaments in this device replaced if they failed (the most common failure, of course). -tony From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Oct 27 16:37:37 2009 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2009 14:37:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Canon BJC-250 printer problems Message-ID: <862607.95627.qm@web23407.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Hi, I acquired a 2nd-hand Canon BJC-250 printer back in January. It seemed to work fine, as the test page printed* and Windows 2K SP4 auto-detected the printer when it was switched on (which is good because I got a "data error (cyclic redundancy check)" when trying to copy the drivers from floppy disk to my laptop). On closer inspection though, all doesn't appear to be fine. I thought I had a black only cartridge installed (which came with the printer), but it turns out to be a colour one. Now the problem occurs when I print a page with black text. The text is printed with alternating black and green lines, instead of just black. Now I never saw this problem at work when we used the same printer model, but that may have been a black only cartridge. Is this problem a side effect of having a colour cartridge, bubble jet printers, or indicative of a problem with the read head / cartridge? I have very little experience with printers and would appreciate any pointers anyone can offer. I hope it fits withing the 10 year rule... not sure how old the printer model is. *The test page requires no input from the computer, so I ruled out a possible driver issue. Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From dseagrav at lunar-tokyo.net Tue Oct 27 16:37:30 2009 From: dseagrav at lunar-tokyo.net (Daniel Seagraves) Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2009 16:37:30 -0500 Subject: Rescued documentation issues In-Reply-To: References: <4AE4F98E.5090605@hachti.de> <4AE5DF61.2070508@bitsavers.org> <4AE60761.7020309@hachti.de> Message-ID: Who says we have to pick just one method of preservation? Why can't we try doing many? I would think the redundancy would benefit everyone. On Oct 27, 2009, at 4:32 PM, Dave Caroline wrote: > "the internet. which has an infinite shelf life." > most assuredly not, bit rot on the internet is rife this week > geocities was shut down > > Dave Caroline From teoz at neo.rr.com Tue Oct 27 16:40:00 2009 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2009 17:40:00 -0400 Subject: Rescued documentation issues References: <4AE4F98E.5090605@hachti.de> <4AE5DF61.2070508@bitsavers.org><4AE60761.7020309@hachti.de> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "William Donzelli" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, October 27, 2009 4:57 PM Subject: Re: Rescued documentation issues >> When information is only stored electronically, those who cannot afford >> electronics are disenfranchised with respect to that information. > > I do not know how it is out by you, but here out East, even a bum can > use the computers to get on the net at the library. > > -- > Will I think in this day and age digital copies of anything are quicker and easier to find and acquire then anything on paper (and you can print them out once you have it). Digital copies have the same issues as online content while printed copies have the same issues as archives do. You need to be able to transfer content digitally and still have some media for long term archives after the content is no longer interesting to the masses (so it will not be found on the internet anymore). From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Oct 27 16:45:21 2009 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2009 21:45:21 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Rescued documentation issues In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <994958.90171.qm@web23401.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Tell me about it. If I want to keep my site up I have to register my own domain, or find a new host. I had a mad rush to back up all the files to my laptop on Saturday... I had started the task weeks before but other things kept getting in my way. The problem with the internet is that most people flock to the big sites (YouTube, Blogger, Myspace, Twitter etc.) and very rarely notice when other sites dissappear :( Geocities has been a great site to use, and I learnt HTML on it back in 2001. Now it's gone :(? (well, they just blocked using Geocities software, so they can force us onto their modern package) Sorry, bit of a rant :) Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk --- On Tue, 27/10/09, Dave Caroline wrote: From: Dave Caroline Subject: Re: Rescued documentation issues To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Date: Tuesday, 27 October, 2009, 9:32 PM "the internet. which has an infinite shelf life." most assuredly not, bit rot on the internet is rife this week geocities was shut down Dave Caroline From hachti at hachti.de Tue Oct 27 16:52:59 2009 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2009 22:52:59 +0100 Subject: Rescued documentation issues In-Reply-To: References: <4AE4F98E.5090605@hachti.de> <4AE5DF61.2070508@bitsavers.org> <4AE60761.7020309@hachti.de> Message-ID: <4AE76BBB.5000106@hachti.de> Daniel Seagraves wrote: > Who says we have to pick just one method of preservation? Why can't we > try doing many? I would think the redundancy would benefit everyone. Electronic documents can be copied easily. So it's easy to have them sitting in several places at once. If Al's house with bitsavers and all his backups burns down (I explicitely do NOT hope that!), bitsavers would still be around. Even if Al WANTED it to go away - no chance. The drawback Al pointed out - digital media lifetime - can be considered as a problem. Digital data storage needs a constant effort to keep the data. Paper can degrade, yes. But if you stop caring for it for long time, you have a much better chance to get anything out of the paper than out of some long forgotten (and probably rotten) digital media. Stainless steel "paper" tapes would be a long lasting machine readable option - but the storage density is poor... Regards, Philipp From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Oct 27 17:31:40 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2009 18:31:40 -0400 Subject: Rescued documentation issues In-Reply-To: <4AE76BBB.5000106@hachti.de> References: <4AE4F98E.5090605@hachti.de> <4AE5DF61.2070508@bitsavers.org> <4AE60761.7020309@hachti.de> <4AE76BBB.5000106@hachti.de> Message-ID: > The drawback Al pointed out - digital media lifetime - can be considered as > a problem. Digital data storage needs a constant effort to keep the data. One list I am on where this issue never comes up is the IBM-MAIN (mainframe) list. Why? Because these people figured out all this stuff back in the 60s. Why is this digital media issue such a big deal? Maybe we should learn from the people that have done all this stuff before, now on their fifth (I think) generation of offline storage, almost never missing a beat. -- Will From arcarlini at iee.org Tue Oct 27 18:11:22 2009 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2009 23:11:22 -0000 Subject: Rescued documentation issues In-Reply-To: Message-ID: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org wrote: > One list I am on where this issue never comes up is the IBM-MAIN > (mainframe) list. Why? Because these people figured out all this > stuff back in the 60s. So what do they do? (I'm assuming that EBCDIC isn't the whole answer ...) Antonio From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Tue Oct 27 18:30:00 2009 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2009 19:30:00 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Rescued documentation issues In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 27 Oct 2009, arcarlini at iee.org wrote: > cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org wrote: >> One list I am on where this issue never comes up is the IBM-MAIN >> (mainframe) list. Why? Because these people figured out all this >> stuff back in the 60s. > > So what do they do? (I'm assuming that EBCDIC isn't the whole answer > ...) Deep in the mountains of West Virginia is a vast underground storage facility filled with Hollerith cards... :-) Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Oct 27 18:59:26 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2009 19:59:26 -0400 Subject: Rescued documentation issues In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > So what do they do? (I'm assuming that EBCDIC isn't the whole answer > ...) Two things alien to many WIndows and Unix shops: 1) Discipline 2) Procedures -- Will From brianlanning at gmail.com Tue Oct 27 19:06:55 2009 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2009 19:06:55 -0500 Subject: rackmount furniture In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6dbe3c380910271706m323829f7kdc680f6eb62ae898@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, Oct 26, 2009 at 11:52 PM, David Griffith wrote: > > Has anyone here tried to disguise a 19-inch rack as some sort of > unobtrusive piece of furniture? I'm pondering making a bench or > sideboard-like thing to compactly conceal computer equipment. > The high-end home theater crowd do things like this. You might want to look there. Otherwise, I'd just build a piece of furniture around it. brian From brianlanning at gmail.com Tue Oct 27 19:12:58 2009 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2009 19:12:58 -0500 Subject: annoying ebay behavior In-Reply-To: <34394.3203.qm@web45301.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <34394.3203.qm@web45301.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6dbe3c380910271712x33afa420j8fa946058c3efcae@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Oct 27, 2009 at 2:08 PM, Mo wrote: > Pickup-only auctions are the exception that don't mandate paypal. > Shipping with a tracking number and the signature of the buyer WILL NOT > protect you in any way from Paypal's tactics. > > Ebay's new terms, the paypal requirement, along with phenomenal increases > in shipping costs, have taken away the marginal profits one used to make > cleaning the closet. > > One would hope that Google or Bing would step up, but largess isn't any > guarantee for success. > I just bought two computers on ebay. They were set as shipping only because the buyer didn't put in pickup as an option (it was forcing me to pay for shipping on checkout). I picked them up and paid cash. When i went back into ebay, it let me simply mark the items as paid. Everything worked fine. brian From dholland at woh.rr.com Tue Oct 27 19:43:34 2009 From: dholland at woh.rr.com (David Holland) Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2009 20:43:34 -0400 Subject: rackmount furniture In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1256690614.26140.5.camel@crusader.localdomain.home> On Mon, 2009-10-26 at 21:52 -0700, David Griffith wrote: > Has anyone here tried to disguise a 19-inch rack as some sort of > unobtrusive piece of furniture? I'm pondering making a bench or > sideboard-like thing to compactly conceal computer equipment. > Not exactly rack oriented, but IMO, a reasonable idea, under the right circumstances: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z4WBTaz4NvY David PS: The Antique Radio folks _WILL_ tar and feather you if you gut a restorable radio trying it..... From pete at dunnington.plus.com Tue Oct 27 19:44:13 2009 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2009 00:44:13 +0000 Subject: TU56 lamp replacement In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4AE793DD.9060204@dunnington.plus.com> On 27/10/2009 21:06, Tony Duell wrote: >> Personally, I'm surprised that you haven't repaired incandescent light >> bulbs... or maybe you have? > So I took the old midget flange bulb and cracked the glass part out with > pliers. Desoldered the wires from the side of the cap and the base > contact, and cleaned out the inside of the cap.. Then inserted a > wire-ended bulb and soldered it in place. I once "repaired" bulbs too, for a set of nice outdoor Christmas lights where I couldn't get the right decorative bulbs. They're the kind that have an outer glass envelope over the actual "bulb" containing the filament. I bought new plain lamps with the same base and rating, and took some of the ones that had burnt out, cut the envelopes off using a diamond scriber, and epoxied the old outers over the new plain lamps. Amazing what you (think you) can do when you're bored. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.plus.com Tue Oct 27 19:45:48 2009 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2009 00:45:48 +0000 Subject: rackmount furniture In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4AE7943C.7080907@dunnington.plus.com> On 27/10/2009 17:00, David Griffith wrote: > On Tue, 27 Oct 2009, William Donzelli wrote: > >>> URL? >> >> Google? > > I was hoping for something you might have had in mind. http://www.kellsystems.com/finish_options.asp http://www.keyzone.com/Racks___Cabinets/Keyzone_WorkSpace.htm kellsystems regularly advertise over here. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From cclist at sydex.com Tue Oct 27 21:02:21 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2009 18:02:21 -0800 Subject: TU56 lamp replacement In-Reply-To: <4AE793DD.9060204@dunnington.plus.com> References: , <4AE793DD.9060204@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <4AE735AD.5758.2183E61@cclist.sydex.com> On 28 Oct 2009 at 0:44, Pete Turnbull wrote: > Amazing what you (think you) can do when you're bored. There's a guy on the web who makes his own (cold cathode) CRTs. We're basically talking 1920's technology here, aren't we? --Chuck From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Oct 27 20:29:49 2009 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2009 19:29:49 -0600 Subject: the FORCE ... :) Message-ID: <4AE79E8D.9020701@jetnet.ab.ca> >> Has anyone here tried to disguise a 19-inch rack as some sort of >> unobtrusive piece of furniture? I'm pondering making a bench or >> sideboard-like thing to compactly conceal computer equipment. >> > > The high-end home theater crowd do things like this. You might want to look > there. Otherwise, I'd just build a piece of furniture around it. Sofa's are a great place to mount things that move. That is not the drive shaking, it is the FORCE from the latest Star Wars movie. > brian > The Dark side of course. :) From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Oct 27 20:39:29 2009 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2009 19:39:29 -0600 Subject: TU56 lamp replacement In-Reply-To: <4AE735AD.5758.2183E61@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4AE793DD.9060204@dunnington.plus.com> <4AE735AD.5758.2183E61@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4AE7A0D1.5080505@jetnet.ab.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 28 Oct 2009 at 0:44, Pete Turnbull wrote: > >> Amazing what you (think you) can do when you're bored. > > There's a guy on the web who makes his own (cold cathode) CRTs. > We're basically talking 1920's technology here, aren't we? I thought that was Pre 1900's there. Tubes ( triodes )were mostly understood by then. I am using 45 tubes and they came out 1929 or so. Pentodes came out in the 1930's. Radar in 1940's and Electronic Brains[1] 1950's. > --Chuck > [1] Now back on topic. From starbase89 at gmail.com Tue Oct 27 20:40:57 2009 From: starbase89 at gmail.com (Joe Giliberti) Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2009 21:40:57 -0400 Subject: the FORCE ... :) In-Reply-To: <4AE79E8D.9020701@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4AE79E8D.9020701@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <2b1f1f550910271840o45962b93r529b4e4dd247fce@mail.gmail.com> put a coin box on the side to activate the "massaging couch" On Tue, Oct 27, 2009 at 9:29 PM, Ben wrote: > > >> Has anyone here tried to disguise a 19-inch rack as some sort of > >> unobtrusive piece of furniture? I'm pondering making a bench or > >> sideboard-like thing to compactly conceal computer equipment. > >> > > > > > The high-end home theater crowd do things like this. You might want to > look > > there. Otherwise, I'd just build a piece of furniture around it. > > Sofa's are a great place to mount things that move. That is not the drive > shaking, it is the FORCE from the latest Star Wars movie. > > > brian > > > > The Dark side of course. :) > > From IanK at vulcan.com Tue Oct 27 21:32:21 2009 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2009 19:32:21 -0700 Subject: TU56 lamp replacement In-Reply-To: <4AE7A0D1.5080505@jetnet.ab.ca> References: , <4AE793DD.9060204@dunnington.plus.com> <4AE735AD.5758.2183E61@cclist.sydex.com>, <4AE7A0D1.5080505@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: Triodes? 1907, Lee de Forest. ________________________________________ From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Ben [bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca] Sent: Tuesday, October 27, 2009 6:39 PM To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: TU56 lamp replacement Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 28 Oct 2009 at 0:44, Pete Turnbull wrote: > >> Amazing what you (think you) can do when you're bored. > > There's a guy on the web who makes his own (cold cathode) CRTs. > We're basically talking 1920's technology here, aren't we? I thought that was Pre 1900's there. Tubes ( triodes )were mostly understood by then. I am using 45 tubes and they came out 1929 or so. Pentodes came out in the 1930's. Radar in 1940's and Electronic Brains[1] 1950's. > --Chuck > [1] Now back on topic. From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Wed Oct 28 00:38:23 2009 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2009 22:38:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: rackmount furniture In-Reply-To: <4AE7943C.7080907@dunnington.plus.com> References: <4AE7943C.7080907@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 28 Oct 2009, Pete Turnbull wrote: > On 27/10/2009 17:00, David Griffith wrote: >> On Tue, 27 Oct 2009, William Donzelli wrote: >> >>>> URL? >>> >>> Google? >> >> I was hoping for something you might have had in mind. > > http://www.kellsystems.com/finish_options.asp The Kellsystems ones look nice. I wonder if they can be installed parallel to a wall instead of perpendicular. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From bqt at softjar.se Tue Oct 27 12:55:19 2009 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2009 18:55:19 +0100 Subject: Kiel PDP-10 [was RE: pdp8/e frontpanel lamps] In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4AE73407.3020602@softjar.se> Jochen Kunz wrote: > > On Tue, 27 Oct 2009 06:55:30 -0000 > "Rod Smallwood" wrote: > > >> > Are there any DEC 10's running elsewhere? >> > At least a vew years ago the Lule? Academic Computer Society (Computer > Society at Lule? University of Technology) used to have a runable > DECsystem 2065. There was a nice galery featuring many interresting > machines (VAX 8850, Norsk Data, ...). But the website has been WiKified > (puke) and now the galery is gone. > Hmm. As far as I know, LUDD only have/had a DEC-2020. No -2065 around there. But the largest collection of PDP-10 machines in the world for a long time used to be at Stacken, at the Royal Institute of Technology (KTH) in Sweden. That, in combination with Peter Lothbergs collection. Stacken have had to get rid of most of their stuff, I think, but Peter still has his, and maybe more. Lots of machines from the US were "exported" to Stacken... I know that Peter still have atleast one KI-10 SMP machine (with alteast two cpus) in storage. And that one is runnable. He have KLs as well, and other stuff. Stacken used to have a KA-10 running, and several KL and KS machines as well. I think I've written about this before, but it seems that either is noone seeing my mails, or noone remembers them, or possible noone wants to believe them. Don't know which... Anyway, not that I think you could get Peter to work on restoring a KI-10 unless you have lots of money, but I bet he'd be able to to it in close to no time, without much help. Heck, I know he modified his KI-10 machines to have some extra instruction needed for his modified version of TOPS-10 back in the 80s. If there is anyone in the world who knows PDP-10 machines, it is Peter. It's just that if you haven't been around for a long time, you probably might not know about him. Johnny From pontus at Update.UU.SE Wed Oct 28 03:10:03 2009 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2009 09:10:03 +0100 Subject: Kiel PDP-10 [was RE: pdp8/e frontpanel lamps] In-Reply-To: <4AE73407.3020602@softjar.se> References: <4AE73407.3020602@softjar.se> Message-ID: <20091028081003.GB14877@Update.UU.SE> > Stacken have had to get rid of most of their stuff, I think, but > Peter still has his, and maybe more. Did that stuff get thrown out or did it end up with other stacken members? (Expect for the stuff that went to uppsala this year) > I think I've written about this before, but it seems that either is > noone seeing my mails, or noone remembers them, or possible noone > wants to believe them. > Don't know which... Posting a link to his gallery makes it more believable, but I'm sure that the link has been posted before: http://www.stupi.se/Bilder/pdp-10/index.html Cheers, Pontus Ps. Checking the archives, both you and Peter posted the link :D http://www.classiccmp.org/mailman/htdig/cctalk/2003-July/025598.html http://www.classiccmp.org/mailman/htdig/cctalk/2009-January/267600.html From quapla at xs4all.nl Wed Oct 28 03:21:58 2009 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (Ed Groenenberg) Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2009 09:21:58 +0100 Subject: Kiel PDP-10 [was RE: pdp8/e frontpanel lamps] In-Reply-To: <20091028081003.GB14877@Update.UU.SE> References: <4AE73407.3020602@softjar.se> <20091028081003.GB14877@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: snip snip > http://www.stupi.se/Bilder/pdp-10/index.html That is by all means 'filled to the roof' and a massive amount of Big Iron. I see the guy with the gloves really thinking 'where to start...' :) Ed -- Certified : VCP 3.x, SCSI 3.x SCSA S10, SCNA S10 From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Wed Oct 28 08:24:03 2009 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2009 09:24:03 -0400 (EDT) Subject: DEC RRD40 caddy In-Reply-To: <20091028081003.GB14877@Update.UU.SE> References: <4AE73407.3020602@softjar.se> <20091028081003.GB14877@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: It's time to join the list of users looking for this gadget... Does anyone have a spare caddy for the DEC RRD40 CD-ROM drive? This is the thinner "lobster claw" caddy which is used to insert and remove the disc (part of it remains in the drive). Is there any way to manually remove a disc from the RRD40? Mine has a disc in it, and it's not obvious how to get it out without the caddy. Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From lproven at gmail.com Wed Oct 28 09:19:07 2009 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2009 14:19:07 +0000 Subject: Fwd: [merton freegle] Offered: various old XT dev kits sm4 In-Reply-To: <4AE6CA85.5010600@dougneale.co.uk> References: <4AE6CA85.5010600@dougneale.co.uk> Message-ID: <575131af0910280719k47af1973x157c7a676b7da4ae@mail.gmail.com> This might be of interest to some folk? Don't mail me, contact the originator directly... I think he's expecting for the stuff to be collected, too... - LP ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: doug at dougneale.co.uk Date: Tue, Oct 27, 2009 at 10:25 AM Subject: [merton freegle] Offered: various old XT dev kits sm4 To: mertonfreegle at yahoogroups.com Definitely an item for the computer whizz/hacker/museum These PC cards fit into the old XT slots, not the newer PCI ones. They are all cards for experimenting with non-pc chips: TMS 34010 TMS 320C30 Novix 4000 ARM chip 68302 (OS9 for windows kit) Inmos 4008 Transputer Inmos Quadputer (with software) Some manuals, but no other software. Regards, Doug Neale ------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: ? ?http://groups.yahoo.com/group/mertonfreegle/ <*> Your email settings: ? ?Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: ? ?http://groups.yahoo.com/group/mertonfreegle/join ? ?(Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: ? ?mailto:mertonfreegle-digest at yahoogroups.com ? ?mailto:mertonfreegle-fullfeatured at yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: ? ?mertonfreegle-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: ? ?http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? LiveJournal/Twitter: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From hachti at hachti.de Wed Oct 28 12:11:52 2009 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2009 18:11:52 +0100 Subject: HP 2748B bulb replacement In-Reply-To: <20091026154744.GC6839@n0jcf.net> References: <4AE3B1F5.D038FC6A@cs.ubc.ca> <4AE3617F.13816.26FD868@cclist.sydex.com> <20091025185107.GV6839@n0jcf.net> <4AE57EA8.8030507@hachti.de> <20091026154744.GC6839@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <4AE87B58.3080708@hachti.de> > My apologies for not telling the whole story. :-) > ...so I bought 20 of them as a life-time > supply. Hm, how old are you?!? > I haven't finished my microcontroller interface to the 2748B yet but the > tests in the service manual indicate that the replaced bulbs are doing > the job nicely. That belongs to a minicontroller instead a microcontroller.... You can just hook it up to your pc. I have a printer port "paper tape" reader that can be used by "cat tape > /dev/lp0" and connects to my H316. Behaves like the real thing - but incredible fast. Needed 2 or 3 TTL ICs... So the other direction could not be much more complicated. Regards, Philipp :) From hachti at hachti.de Wed Oct 28 12:15:26 2009 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2009 18:15:26 +0100 Subject: TU56 lamp replacement In-Reply-To: <200910250100.n9P10US04667@h-68-165-246-86.mclnva23.covad.net> References: <200910250100.n9P10US04667@h-68-165-246-86.mclnva23.covad.net> Message-ID: <4AE87C2E.1090705@hachti.de> > I just replaced one of them again last week so I had taken a picture of > the indicator disassembled. > It is now up at > http://www.pdp8online.com/tu56/pics/p1000839.shtml?small Wow! That looks like out of the factory - or did you put it into a dishwasher? Btw I don't recommend putting TU56s into the dishwasher - at least the motors. I got one unit that had have a time underwater. It looks very good, but the water stayed in the motors and they were rusted. Stuck. Had to disassemble and clean them a bit - the unit works fine again (after some usual repairs). But it's also the drive with all lamps blown.. Regards, Philipp From hachti at hachti.de Wed Oct 28 12:22:11 2009 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2009 18:22:11 +0100 Subject: Rescued documentation issues In-Reply-To: References: <4AE4F98E.5090605@hachti.de> <4AE5DF61.2070508@bitsavers.org> <4AE60761.7020309@hachti.de> Message-ID: <4AE87DC3.2060300@hachti.de> >>> Are historians going to be interested in artifacts to this level >>> of >> detail? My (little) experience would say: Not really. >> As I mentioned, you're probably right with that assumption. But I do NOT appreciate that...! > I am! I am! :-) My position, that detail is important, is > premised on the belief that if we are committed to preserving the > history of information technology, we need to preserve the artifacts > as *working* systems. That's quite important. Dead information technology equipment is by far more dead than a big steam engine. So it has to be working. The magic begins when you turn the key and everything starts blinking and moving. I also consider peripherals very important. I sometimes wonder why "some" museum people don't really care about peripherals. I think a working drum printer is harder to get than some rusty pdp computers (pdpcount 11, printercount 1).... > UNIX is user friendly. It's just selective about who its friends > are. I really like that :) From hachti at hachti.de Wed Oct 28 12:41:43 2009 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2009 18:41:43 +0100 Subject: Ampex Megastore Message-ID: <4AE88257.3050805@hachti.de> Another topic.... I got that Ampex "Megastore 316". It's a ramdisk for the Honeywell H316. Connects via IO but and optionally DMC (kind of data break). Is from the early 80s and contains to times half a megabyte of core memory. Quite a mass... I have some schematics, but not all I would need. Currently it's working a bit - reading only every second word - but that looks good so far. I had to make my own cables. Perhaps I did something wrong...? Played a bit with the controller's microcode. Found no reason why it skis addresses. There must be something wrong with the bus. I have two controllers and two core modules - swapping doesn't change anything.. Does anyone on the list have experience, docs or other information to share? Kind Regards, Philipp :-) From cclist at sydex.com Wed Oct 28 13:53:45 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2009 10:53:45 -0800 Subject: Ampex Megastore In-Reply-To: <4AE88257.3050805@hachti.de> References: <4AE88257.3050805@hachti.de> Message-ID: <4AE822B9.24304.40F48A@cclist.sydex.com> On 28 Oct 2009 at 18:41, Philipp Hachtmann wrote: > I got that Ampex "Megastore 316". It's a ramdisk for the Honeywell > H316. Connects via IO but and optionally DMC (kind of data break). Is > from the early 80s and contains to times half a megabyte of core > memory. Quite a mass... Ampex must have used the term on a number of products. I've got a full-length ISA card here from Ampex with a ROM labeled "Ampex Megastore". External interface is a 50 pin header. It appears to be a SASI interface card. --Chuck From kevenm at reeltapetransfer.com Wed Oct 28 12:58:05 2009 From: kevenm at reeltapetransfer.com (Keven Miller) Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2009 11:58:05 -0600 Subject: Menu builder script for MS-DOS? >> SNOBOL References: <4AE50939.2010609@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: FWIW: I have from pcsig/public domain Disk No 980 Program Title: VANILLA SNOBOL4 version 2.14 PC-SIG version 1.3 VANILLA SNOBOL4 is an easy-to-learn, flexible language used primarily for non-numeric applications, such as artificial intelligence, analyzing databases, text formatting, data conversion, finding patterns in all kinds of data, searching text files, etc. The language also has a full array of mathematical functions. This version of SNOBOL4 does not have real numbers, and the object program and data cannot exceed 30K in size. Otherwise, VANILLA SNOBOL4 provides the entire SNOBOL4 programming language as described in textbooks. VANILLA SNOBOL4 is being used for teaching in college computer science and humanities departments. A 150-page language tutorial and reference manual is included on this disk. Source programs for SNOBOL4 are typically five to ten times smaller than equivalent C or Pascal programs. Usage: Programming Language. Google "vanilla snobol" brings up some links to get various versions of Snobol. Keven Miller From hachti at hachti.de Wed Oct 28 13:15:05 2009 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2009 19:15:05 +0100 Subject: Ampex Megastore In-Reply-To: <4AE822B9.24304.40F48A@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4AE88257.3050805@hachti.de> <4AE822B9.24304.40F48A@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4AE88A29.1020403@hachti.de> > Ampex must have used the term on a number of products. I've got a > full-length ISA card here from Ampex with a ROM labeled "Ampex > Megastore". External interface is a 50 pin header. It appears to be > a SASI interface card. That's what google told me: 50 pin, "megastore", ISA, SASI, questionable ESDI etc. The thing I have is a 19" device approx 2/3 height of a pdp8/e, RL02 and friends. -- Philipp From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Wed Oct 28 13:16:52 2009 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2009 11:16:52 -0700 Subject: Kiel PDP-10 [was RE: pdp8/e frontpanel lamps] References: <4AE73407.3020602@softjar.se> Message-ID: <4AE88A94.756BD427@cs.ubc.ca> Johnny Billquist wrote: > I think I've written about this before, but it seems that either is > noone seeing my mails, or noone remembers them, or possible noone wants > to believe them. > Don't know which... I wouldn't take it personally Johnny; keep in mind the 'list memory' seems to be rather short, as evidenced by the number of times certain topics or questions keep on getting rehashed every now and then. From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Wed Oct 28 13:19:55 2009 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2009 11:19:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Model M parts Message-ID: Does anyone here have any spare Model M keys? I'm looking for the right-hand shift key. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From hachti at hachti.de Wed Oct 28 13:55:38 2009 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2009 19:55:38 +0100 Subject: Kiel PDP-10 [was RE: pdp8/e frontpanel lamps] In-Reply-To: <4AE88A94.756BD427@cs.ubc.ca> References: <4AE73407.3020602@softjar.se> <4AE88A94.756BD427@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <4AE893AA.80109@hachti.de> > I wouldn't take it personally Johnny; keep in mind the 'list memory' seems to > be rather short, as evidenced by the number of times certain topics or > questions keep on getting rehashed every now and then. The list memory is not that short. But it's not always THAT useful what I find.... So let's use the list :-) From cclist at sydex.com Wed Oct 28 15:43:22 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2009 12:43:22 -0800 Subject: Ampex Megastore In-Reply-To: <4AE88A29.1020403@hachti.de> References: <4AE88257.3050805@hachti.de>, <4AE822B9.24304.40F48A@cclist.sydex.com>, <4AE88A29.1020403@hachti.de> Message-ID: <4AE83C6A.28922.A550CD@cclist.sydex.com> On 28 Oct 2009 at 19:15, Philipp Hachtmann wrote: > That's what google told me: 50 pin, "megastore", ISA, SASI, > questionable ESDI etc. > > The thing I have is a 19" device approx 2/3 height of a pdp8/e, RL02 > and friends. Very different, indeed. I think the PC Megastore was a combination SASI tape and hard disk external box. Probably one of the earliest hard drives for the PC platform. --Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Oct 28 14:57:11 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2009 19:57:11 +0000 (GMT) Subject: A few classic computer photos Message-ID: I've put a few photos of mostly classic computer stuff on flickr. From memory, there are some floppy drives coming apart, the boards from the HP9820 calculator, repairing the printer and card reader for that machine, upgrading the memory in an HP integral and an HP42S, and a few more. Do a search for tony_duell to find them.. Don;t try to make sense of the 'photostream', the sets, howerver, are in a sane order. Enjoy -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Oct 28 14:52:49 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2009 19:52:49 +0000 (GMT) Subject: HP 2748B bulb replacement In-Reply-To: <4AE87B58.3080708@hachti.de> from "Philipp Hachtmann" at Oct 28, 9 06:11:52 pm Message-ID: > > > > My apologies for not telling the whole story. > :-) > > > > ...so I bought 20 of them as a life-time > > supply. > Hm, how old are you?!? They seem to be somewhat under-voltaged in the 2748 (they don't glow that 'white') so they should last a long time. > > I haven't finished my microcontroller interface to the 2748B yet but the > > tests in the service manual indicate that the replaced bulbs are doing > > the job nicely. > That belongs to a minicontroller instead a microcontroller.... Mine (a 2748A) came off an HP2100A system, but I now use it with an HP9830 'calculator'. I found the right interface on E-bay -- it's a 11202 8-bit parallel interface with the right connector on the end of the cable. Needless to say it works fine. > You can just hook it up to your pc. I have a printer port "paper tape" One minor problem is that the 2748A doesn't use TTL levels. It's a minor problem because on the -B you have a 'TTL clamp' jumper on the interface connector, if you fit that then you gry 5V outputs. The -A model doens't have this., but interesting the output circuity will give TTL levels if connected ot a TTL input terminated to +5V and ground by the appropirate pair of reuistors (which just happen to be the ones used in the 11202) -tony From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Oct 28 15:31:37 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2009 13:31:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: A few classic computer photos In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20091028132905.X9898@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 28 Oct 2009, Tony Duell wrote: > I've put a few photos of mostly classic computer stuff on flickr. From How did you digitize them? Did you finally succumb to owning a scanner, or a digital camera? I'm buying a Panasonic Micro-Four-Thirds camera body - I can put Leica lenses on it! -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From lehmann at ans-netz.de Wed Oct 28 16:02:21 2009 From: lehmann at ans-netz.de (Oliver Lehmann) Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2009 22:02:21 +0100 Subject: Rescued documentation issues In-Reply-To: References: <4AE4F98E.5090605@hachti.de> <4AE5DF61.2070508@bitsavers.org> <4AE60761.7020309@hachti.de> Message-ID: <20091028220221.70fe6435.lehmann@ans-netz.de> Rich Alderson wrote: > Please point out how paper (which can last for 2000 years) is more degradable > than a CDROM that uses a dye technology with an expected shelf life of less > than 30. Or than disk drives which are subject to mechanical as well as > electronic failures in a far shorter time span. For example - valuable and historic german documents are all filmed onto microfilm and stored in an old bunker in the black forest in an air-tight container. Microfilm was choosen to archive this valuable documents because very low technology is needed to read the documents (just some sort of lense) so to be able to access the "data" stored on the microfilm even without any electronic device after whatever event (world war III? ;)) I like this way of thinking. Because imho making yourself depending on "higher technology" like a computer to get valuable information as a desaster plan seems weird to me. http://www.showcaves.com/english/de/misc/Kulturbunker.html -- Oliver Lehmann http://www.pofo.de/ http://wishlist.ans-netz.de/ From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Wed Oct 28 16:02:18 2009 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2009 16:02:18 -0500 Subject: Good references for ANSI terminal emulation? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4AE8B15A.3030905@brutman.com> arcarlini at iee.org wrote: > cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org wrote: > >> Just a little more help because I'm being super thick - what exactly >> does "keypad application mode mean"? I understand the difference >> between numeric mode and non-numeric, or I'm assuming that it >> works the >> same way it does on PC. But the "application mode" thing is throwing >> me off because I don't know what it means and can't draw my own >> analogies. > > iirc that ANSI standard was based on the DEC VT100, so if you read the > VT100 user manual (available on Manx I think) you'll have a good idea of > what everything is supposed to do. > > My recollection is that in numeric keypad mode you cannot tell the > difference between "1" on the keypad and "1" above the "Q". > > In "application keypad" mode, "1" on the keypad generates an escape > sequence. > > Antonio I took a good stare at the VT220 Programmers Reference. It looks like 'application mode' isn't that special. It really looks very similar to the way the keypad is handled on the PC - in one mode you get the numbers on the keypad, and in the other mode you get an ESC string to indicate special keys. Have I finally got this right? :-) Mike From lehmann at ans-netz.de Wed Oct 28 16:04:59 2009 From: lehmann at ans-netz.de (Oliver Lehmann) Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2009 22:04:59 +0100 Subject: Rescued documentation issues In-Reply-To: <4AE76BBB.5000106@hachti.de> References: <4AE4F98E.5090605@hachti.de> <4AE5DF61.2070508@bitsavers.org> <4AE60761.7020309@hachti.de> <4AE76BBB.5000106@hachti.de> Message-ID: <20091028220459.931480e6.lehmann@ans-netz.de> Philipp Hachtmann wrote: > The drawback Al pointed out - digital media lifetime - can be considered > as a problem. Digital data storage needs a constant effort to keep the And you would need to constantly "migrate" the digital data onto the actual formats. Otherwise you would be at some point not be able to access the old storage devices any longer because the hardware is just dead. I know this is the wrong list to tell this but accessing data on 8" floppies might get harder for example during the next 10 years ;) Or take SA1100 disks.... data stored on them would be kinda hard to restore today... But I think you get the point.... -- Oliver Lehmann http://www.pofo.de/ http://wishlist.ans-netz.de/ From geoffr at zipcon.net Wed Oct 28 16:05:47 2009 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoffrey Reed) Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2009 14:05:47 -0700 Subject: rackmount furniture In-Reply-To: <4AE6C8CC.32234.6EEF79@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: I have been thinking of turning the area under our stairs from the basement to upstairs into a small datacenter :) On 10/27/09 11:17 AM, "Chuck Guzis" wrote: > On 27 Oct 2009 at 10:00, David Griffith wrote: > > >> I was hoping for something you might have had in mind. > > How about this? > > http://www.ksipro.com/pdfs/Fpremiercarts.pdf > > I've heard of some people building EIA rackmount setups into spare > closets also... Just shut the door and it's gone. > > Cheers, > Chuck > > From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Oct 28 16:18:56 2009 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2009 14:18:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: rackmount furniture In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: How do you keep heat from becoming an issue? We recently bought a house. My datacenter is a series of racks in the garage. I have a real problem, the garage isn't insulated. As a result it gets D*** hot out there in the summer. I didn't actually get the servers brought online till summer was basically over, but even then I had to have my wife keep an eye on things. When it got to hot, she had to open the door to the garage and aim a fan such that it would blow the cool air onto the computers. I really need to solve the problem before next summer, or else I'll likely have to shut my servers down part of the time. :-( Zane On Wed, 28 Oct 2009, Geoffrey Reed wrote: > I have been thinking of turning the area under our stairs from the basement > to upstairs into a small datacenter :) > > > On 10/27/09 11:17 AM, "Chuck Guzis" wrote: > >> On 27 Oct 2009 at 10:00, David Griffith wrote: >> >> >>> I was hoping for something you might have had in mind. >> >> How about this? >> >> http://www.ksipro.com/pdfs/Fpremiercarts.pdf >> >> I've heard of some people building EIA rackmount setups into spare >> closets also... Just shut the door and it's gone. >> >> Cheers, >> Chuck >> >> > > From teoz at neo.rr.com Wed Oct 28 16:23:21 2009 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2009 17:23:21 -0400 Subject: Rescued documentation issues References: <4AE4F98E.5090605@hachti.de> <4AE5DF61.2070508@bitsavers.org><4AE60761.7020309@hachti.de> <20091028220221.70fe6435.lehmann@ans-netz.de> Message-ID: <1ECF75B871144F19B5E1AA621DCDFD52@dell8300> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Oliver Lehmann" To: Sent: Wednesday, October 28, 2009 5:02 PM Subject: Re: Rescued documentation issues > I like this way of thinking. Because imho making yourself depending on > "higher technology" like a computer to get valuable information as a > desaster plan seems weird to me. > We are talking about old and obsolete machines. If some day in the future the world has blown up and working computers are no longer easy to find I think you will have other more pressing issues to work on other then getting a 1970's machine up and running (especially when the computer controlled power grid is gone). The whole point about preserving history is to show how something started and progressed to what we have today. Sometimes we have dead ends because of the lack of technology to keep going down a specific path, that can change down the road and we might be able to pick up where we left off. Why reinvent the wheel if you can look it up. For example maybe 100 years from now a key material used in the manufacturing of LCD's might be used up and we might have to go back to CRT's until something else comes out. Do you think anyone will remember how they used to make CRTs without some known examples, tech notes, etc? Anybody that used to make those tubes would be dead, and any company that quit making them most likely junked all their documentation decades before. From geoffr at zipcon.net Wed Oct 28 16:24:05 2009 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoffrey Reed) Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2009 14:24:05 -0700 Subject: rackmount furniture In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I am looking at eventually getting ourselves a heatpump for the whole house and setting up a zone system for heating and cooling :) On 10/28/09 2:18 PM, "Zane H. Healy" wrote: > How do you keep heat from becoming an issue? > > We recently bought a house. My datacenter is a series of racks in the > garage. I have a real problem, the garage isn't insulated. As a result > it gets D*** hot out there in the summer. I didn't actually get the servers > brought online till summer was basically over, but even then I had to have > my wife keep an eye on things. When it got to hot, she had to open the door > to the garage and aim a fan such that it would blow the cool air onto the > computers. I really need to solve the problem before next summer, or else > I'll likely have to shut my servers down part of the time. :-( > > Zane > > > > On Wed, 28 Oct 2009, Geoffrey Reed wrote: > >> I have been thinking of turning the area under our stairs from the basement >> to upstairs into a small datacenter :) >> >> >> On 10/27/09 11:17 AM, "Chuck Guzis" wrote: >> >>> On 27 Oct 2009 at 10:00, David Griffith wrote: >>> >>> >>>> I was hoping for something you might have had in mind. >>> >>> How about this? >>> >>> http://www.ksipro.com/pdfs/Fpremiercarts.pdf >>> >>> I've heard of some people building EIA rackmount setups into spare >>> closets also... Just shut the door and it's gone. >>> >>> Cheers, >>> Chuck >>> >>> >> >> > From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Oct 28 16:26:45 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2009 17:26:45 -0400 Subject: Rescued documentation issues In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > ? Deep in the mountains of West Virginia is a vast underground storage > facility filled with Hollerith cards... ?:-) In the early 1990s it was still quite reasonable to find a card reader and punch (typically an IBM 3505/3525 pair) in a good sized mainframe shop. 20 years after they stopped using punch cards. Just in case. -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Oct 28 16:28:43 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2009 17:28:43 -0400 Subject: Rescued documentation issues In-Reply-To: <1ECF75B871144F19B5E1AA621DCDFD52@dell8300> References: <4AE4F98E.5090605@hachti.de> <4AE5DF61.2070508@bitsavers.org> <4AE60761.7020309@hachti.de> <20091028220221.70fe6435.lehmann@ans-netz.de> <1ECF75B871144F19B5E1AA621DCDFD52@dell8300> Message-ID: > Do you > think anyone will remember how they used to make CRTs without some known > examples, tech notes, etc? Anybody that used to make those tubes would be > dead, and any company that quit making them most likely junked all their > documentation decades before. Well, except for the Dowd archive. -- Will From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Oct 28 16:38:29 2009 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2009 14:38:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Rescued documentation issues In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 28 Oct 2009, William Donzelli wrote: >> ? Deep in the mountains of West Virginia is a vast underground storage >> facility filled with Hollerith cards... ?:-) > > In the early 1990s it was still quite reasonable to find a card reader > and punch (typically an IBM 3505/3525 pair) in a good sized mainframe > shop. 20 years after they stopped using punch cards. Just in case. I started working on a Honeywell Mainframe in late 1990, the month before I got there they had gotten rid of the card reader, but up to that point, it was used to bootstrap the system. In fact I think that card deck was still there when I left at the end of '93. Zane From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Oct 28 21:19:05 2009 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2009 19:19:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Classilla 9.0.4 Message-ID: <200910290219.n9T2J5xl017234@floodgap.com> For those who are playing with it, Classilla 9.0.4 (a Mozilla-based browser for classic Mac OS systems) is now available. Marginally on topic. www.classilla.org -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- FORTUNE: The moon is in Venus' house. This will make no difference. -------- From brianlanning at gmail.com Wed Oct 28 23:51:20 2009 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2009 23:51:20 -0500 Subject: hp laserjet 3 and jetlan interface Message-ID: <6dbe3c380910282151u11196a53obf62cd2200402fbc@mail.gmail.com> Does anyone know how to get this working? Much googling has produced a reference to a utility called psadmin that's needed to set the initial ip address for a jetlan card. Vista can't see the printer while snooping the network. Any ideas? brian From teoz at neo.rr.com Thu Oct 29 00:07:14 2009 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2009 01:07:14 -0400 Subject: hp laserjet 3 and jetlan interface References: <6dbe3c380910282151u11196a53obf62cd2200402fbc@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brian Lanning" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, October 29, 2009 12:51 AM Subject: hp laserjet 3 and jetlan interface > Does anyone know how to get this working? Much googling has produced a > reference to a utility called psadmin that's needed to set the initial ip > address for a jetlan card. Vista can't see the printer while snooping the > network. Any ideas? > > brian What OS are you using? On my HP 4 Si there is software called jetadmin (different versions for 9x and 2k). Basically you use the printer control panel to setup the card, and the software allows you to change any setting you like from another PC. Software seems hard to find these days for older systems. From bqt at softjar.se Wed Oct 28 13:59:31 2009 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2009 19:59:31 +0100 Subject: Stockholm PDP-10s (was: Kiel PDP-10) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4AE89493.3040407@softjar.se> Pontus Pihlgren wrote: >> > Stacken have had to get rid of most of their stuff, I think, but >> > Peter still has his, and maybe more. > > Did that stuff get thrown out or did it end up with other stacken > members? (Expect for the stuff that went to uppsala this year) I'm afraid most of Stackens stuff is lost forever. :-( There was a little stuff saved in a warehouse somewhere still, if you remember... But we did manage to save a KS-10, and they kept one at KTH. Both should be functional. That's always something. >> > I think I've written about this before, but it seems that either is >> > noone seeing my mails, or noone remembers them, or possible noone >> > wants to believe them. >> > Don't know which... > > Posting a link to his gallery makes it more believable, but I'm sure > that the link has been posted before: > > http://www.stupi.se/Bilder/pdp-10/index.html True. > Ps. > > Checking the archives, both you and Peter posted the link :D > > http://www.classiccmp.org/mailman/htdig/cctalk/2003-July/025598.html > http://www.classiccmp.org/mailman/htdig/cctalk/2009-January/267600.html Ah. That first link was really good. There people can see what Peter have in storage. Most of it very much possible to get running. So he have actually four KI10 systems, as well as two KA10, and a bunch of KL and KS. It was more than I thought. Looks like a pretty good collection of all 36-bit machines with PDP-10 like architecture. Missing is a PDP-6, as well as a few clones. The SC30 is actually online on HECnet. :-) .ncp tell sol sho exec Node summary as of 28-OCT-09 19:53:09 Executor node = 59.10 (SOL) Identification = Systems Concepts SF CA USA - SC30M - DN-20 4.0 State = On, Active links = 0 I think his TOAD-1 is also running, but it don't seem to be online on HECnet right now. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From jws at jwsss.com Wed Oct 28 15:07:29 2009 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2009 13:07:29 -0700 Subject: Ampex Megastore In-Reply-To: <4AE83C6A.28922.A550CD@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4AE88257.3050805@hachti.de>, <4AE822B9.24304.40F48A@cclist.sydex.com>, <4AE88A29.1020403@hachti.de> <4AE83C6A.28922.A550CD@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4AE8A481.80201@jwsss.com> There was also Megatape which had a proprietary tape cartridge and a drive with a Pertec Compatable interface. They managed to come out with it head on into the SCSI interfaces taking over the world. The drive was unique in that it fit into one of the CDC 8" drive bays, which were the ones which set 2 side by side in a 19" rack. Pretty, but didn't sell well, especially with the custom cartridges. Megatape tried making Exabyte drives in a rack and eventually liquidated, so there may be some such boxes around in peoples piles. I also have a British made device which was "wafer scale" with a SASI interface from the same time period, was not core, but solid state. Don't recall the manufacturer right now, but do recall it was the solid state memory storage unit with 6" (I think) diameter memory wafers in a stack. Jim Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 28 Oct 2009 at 19:15, Philipp Hachtmann wrote: > > >> That's what google told me: 50 pin, "megastore", ISA, SASI, >> questionable ESDI etc. >> >> The thing I have is a 19" device approx 2/3 height of a pdp8/e, RL02 >> and friends. >> > > Very different, indeed. I think the PC Megastore was a combination > SASI tape and hard disk external box. Probably one of the earliest > hard drives for the PC platform. > > --Chuck > > > From chrise at pobox.com Wed Oct 28 17:22:37 2009 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2009 17:22:37 -0500 Subject: HP 2748B bulb replacement In-Reply-To: <4AE87B58.3080708@hachti.de> References: <4AE3B1F5.D038FC6A@cs.ubc.ca> <4AE3617F.13816.26FD868@cclist.sydex.com> <20091025185107.GV6839@n0jcf.net> <4AE57EA8.8030507@hachti.de> <20091026154744.GC6839@n0jcf.net> <4AE87B58.3080708@hachti.de> Message-ID: <20091028222237.GB15852@n0jcf.net> On Wednesday (10/28/2009 at 06:11PM +0100), Philipp Hachtmann wrote: >> ...so I bought 20 of them as a life-time >> supply. > Hm, how old are you?!? ah... 47. It'll be a race to see if I can outlast the bulbs ;-) >> I haven't finished my microcontroller interface to the 2748B yet but the >> tests in the service manual indicate that the replaced bulbs are doing >> the job nicely. > That belongs to a minicontroller instead a microcontroller.... > You can just hook it up to your pc. I have a printer port "paper tape" > reader that can be used by "cat tape > /dev/lp0" and connects to my > H316. Behaves like the real thing - but incredible fast. Needed 2 or 3 > TTL ICs... So the other direction could not be much more complicated. Nah. I want it on a serial port... which ultimately hooks to a terminal server or various other vintage microcomputers here. The microcontroller will understand DC2/DC4 reader on/off control from the host back to it and optionally insert some EOF/EOT character when end of tape is detected. This is not a hard problem you are correct... most of the time is spent in wiring it up, machineing the enclosure, etc. But that's all stuff I like to do. I tend to throw hardware at these problems and in my little world, embedded processors qualify as hardware. One thing I learned about the 2748B is that it wants to output 12V logic levels (unless you install the 5V clamp on the I/O connector). I was uncomfortable depending on that connection via the connector to engage the internal zener to clamp it... so I built my circuit to accept the 12V levels and then leave the 2748B in its default configuration. I'll have this thing going in a few more days... Did you mean that you have a paper tape ** PUNCH ** that can be used by "cat tape > /dev/lp0" ?? I assume that's what you meant since that cat operation would be outputting stuff not inputting it. Chris -- Chris Elmquist From cvisors at gmail.com Thu Oct 29 09:42:11 2009 From: cvisors at gmail.com (Ivy Gardiner) Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2009 01:42:11 +1100 Subject: vax - odd thing regarding lego mindstorms. Message-ID: Hi All, Just something I noticed the other day. A school that I help with radio stuff (yeah I'm a ham) just got a set of the new lego mindstorm bits and pieces. And I noticed their little serial leads seem to use the same almost RJ-12 style connector with the offset clip. I haven't double checked but it seems that someone else is using the connector that I have a battered version. Take Care and 7 3 ~Ivy -- VK3IVY http://radio.carnagevisors.net From cvisors at gmail.com Thu Oct 29 09:49:12 2009 From: cvisors at gmail.com (Ivy Gardiner) Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2009 01:49:12 +1100 Subject: Odd list behavior! In-Reply-To: References: <6dbe3c380910100655v72e597e4p2b6b526015c8fa6f@mail.gmail.com> <83633A28-8246-44AD-80F6-095BC39A52DB@gmail.com> <6dbe3c380910101209g574d7023xefa21c654522696b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Oct 12, 2009 at 2:59 PM, Ian King wrote: > > I don't have trouble with seeing the items I post - that works fine. ?But more often than I like, I don't see the original post in series. ?Not sure why that is.... ?-- Ian On a number of mailing lists I manage, it appears that gmail doesn't show you your own posts. So pretty much a gmail thing. ~Ivy -- VK3IVY http://radio.carnagevisors.net From pontus at Update.UU.SE Thu Oct 29 10:08:16 2009 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2009 16:08:16 +0100 Subject: vax - odd thing regarding lego mindstorms. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20091029150816.GA22590@Update.UU.SE> On Fri, Oct 30, 2009 at 01:42:11AM +1100, Ivy Gardiner wrote: > Hi All, > > Just something I noticed the other day. A school that I help with radio > stuff (yeah I'm a ham) just got a set of the new lego mindstorm bits and > pieces. And I noticed their little serial leads seem to use the same almost > RJ-12 style connector with the offset clip. They look mirrored to me: NXT-connector (lego): http://nxtasy.org/wp-content/uploads/2007/02/nxt-compatible-socket.jpg DEC MMJ: http://www.pacificcable.com/photos/PT-J250-6DEC.jpg Cheers, Pontus. From tshoppa at wmata.com Thu Oct 29 10:18:58 2009 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim) Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2009 11:18:58 -0400 Subject: vax - odd thing regarding lego mindstorms. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > Just something I noticed the other day. A school that I help with radio > stuff (yeah I'm a ham) just got a set of the new lego mindstorm bits and > pieces. And I noticed their little serial leads seem to use the same almost > RJ-12 style connector with the offset clip. > I haven't double checked but it seems that someone else is using the > connector that I have a battered version. I think that the Lego plug has the clip offset to the opposite side compared to the DEC MMJ. So similar...yet even more incompatible! Tim. From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Oct 29 10:22:46 2009 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2009 11:22:46 -0400 Subject: vax - odd thing regarding lego mindstorms. In-Reply-To: <20091029150816.GA22590@Update.UU.SE> References: <20091029150816.GA22590@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <4AE9B346.4020307@gmail.com> Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > On Fri, Oct 30, 2009 at 01:42:11AM +1100, Ivy Gardiner wrote: >> Hi All, >> >> Just something I noticed the other day. A school that I help with radio >> stuff (yeah I'm a ham) just got a set of the new lego mindstorm bits and >> pieces. And I noticed their little serial leads seem to use the same almost >> RJ-12 style connector with the offset clip. > > They look mirrored to me: > > NXT-connector (lego): > http://nxtasy.org/wp-content/uploads/2007/02/nxt-compatible-socket.jpg > > DEC MMJ: > http://www.pacificcable.com/photos/PT-J250-6DEC.jpg What a shame. Peace... Sridhar From IanK at vulcan.com Thu Oct 29 11:14:43 2009 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2009 09:14:43 -0700 Subject: vax - odd thing regarding lego mindstorms. In-Reply-To: <4AE9B346.4020307@gmail.com> References: <20091029150816.GA22590@Update.UU.SE>,<4AE9B346.4020307@gmail.com> Message-ID: Those who do not know their past - are condemned to be incompatible with it! :-) -- Ian ________________________________________ From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Sridhar Ayengar [ploopster at gmail.com] Sent: Thursday, October 29, 2009 8:22 AM To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: vax - odd thing regarding lego mindstorms. Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > On Fri, Oct 30, 2009 at 01:42:11AM +1100, Ivy Gardiner wrote: >> Hi All, >> >> Just something I noticed the other day. A school that I help with radio >> stuff (yeah I'm a ham) just got a set of the new lego mindstorm bits and >> pieces. And I noticed their little serial leads seem to use the same almost >> RJ-12 style connector with the offset clip. > > They look mirrored to me: > > NXT-connector (lego): > http://nxtasy.org/wp-content/uploads/2007/02/nxt-compatible-socket.jpg > > DEC MMJ: > http://www.pacificcable.com/photos/PT-J250-6DEC.jpg What a shame. Peace... Sridhar From evan at snarc.net Thu Oct 29 12:56:48 2009 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2009 13:56:48 -0400 Subject: Arpanet article on CNN Message-ID: <4AE9D760.1080500@snarc.net> http://www.cnn.com/2009/TECH/10/29/kleinrock.internet/index.html From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Oct 29 13:11:52 2009 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2009 11:11:52 -0700 Subject: Arpanet article on CNN In-Reply-To: <4AE9D760.1080500@snarc.net> References: <4AE9D760.1080500@snarc.net> Message-ID: <4AE9DAE8.80303@bitsavers.org> Evan Koblentz wrote: > http://www.cnn.com/2009/TECH/10/29/kleinrock.internet/index.html > > And I have already posted a correction that it was Charley Kline, not Leonard Kleinrock. MOUNTAIN VIEW and MENLO PARK Calif., CAMBRIDGE Mass. ?October 26, 2009? Forty years ago this week, two programmers sat in front of computer terminals four hundred miles apart. Unknowingly, they were about to make history. At the University of California, Los Angeles, Charley Kline typed a login sequence at around nine p.m. on October 29, 1969. The command went through interface computers built by Cambridge?s BBN Technologies (formerly Bolt, Beranek, and Newman) on its way to Kline?s counterpart Bill Duvall, at SRI International (then known as Stanford Research Institute) in Menlo Park, California. The first couple of letters came through to the SRI machine before the system crashed. The minor setback would be fixed quickly, and the connection was fully in place by 10:30 p.m. The very first data had been sent between two nodes of the ARPANET, a key precursor to the Internet. From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Oct 29 13:14:10 2009 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2009 11:14:10 -0700 Subject: Arpanet article on CNN In-Reply-To: <4AE9DAE8.80303@bitsavers.org> References: <4AE9D760.1080500@snarc.net> <4AE9DAE8.80303@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4AE9DB72.7090307@bitsavers.org> Al Kossow wrote: > Evan Koblentz wrote: >> http://www.cnn.com/2009/TECH/10/29/kleinrock.internet/index.html >> >> > > And I have already posted a correction that it was Charley Kline, not > Leonard Kleinrock. > > http://www.pcworld.com/article/174667/happy_40th_birthday_internet.html had the mistake. From RichA at vulcan.com Thu Oct 29 13:27:31 2009 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2009 11:27:31 -0700 Subject: Stockholm PDP-10s (was: Kiel PDP-10) In-Reply-To: <4AE89493.3040407@softjar.se> References: <4AE89493.3040407@softjar.se> Message-ID: > From: Johnny Billquist > Sent: Wednesday, October 28, 2009 12:00 PM > Pontus Pihlgren wrote: >> Ps. >> Checking the archives, both you and Peter posted the link :D >> http://www.classiccmp.org/mailman/htdig/cctalk/2003-July/025598.html >> http://www.classiccmp.org/mailman/htdig/cctalk/2009-January/267600.html > Ah. That first link was really good. There people can see what Peter > have in storage. Most of it very much possible to get running. So he > have actually four KI10 systems, as well as two KA10, and a bunch of KL > and KS. It was more than I thought. > Looks like a pretty good collection of all 36-bit machines with PDP-10 > like architecture. Missing is a PDP-6, as well as a few clones. No one has a PDP-6. No one. :-((( > The SC30 is actually online on HECnet. :-) > .ncp tell sol sho exec > Node summary as of 28-OCT-09 19:53:09 > Executor node = 59.10 (SOL) > Identification = Systems Concepts SF CA USA - SC30M - DN-20 4.0 > State = On, Active links = 0 > I think his TOAD-1 is also running, but it don't seem to be online on > HECnet right now. If I understand it correctly, HECNET is a DECnet network, right? In that case, unless Peter or someone else has done the work to make the Toad-1 speak DECnet, no one's Toad-1, Peter's or any other, will ever be on HECNET. The management at XKL absolutely forbade the software people to work on DECnet, for reasons obvious to anyone knowing the company history. Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Server Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at livingcomputermuseum.org http://www.pdpplanet.org/ http://www.livingcomputermuseum.org/ From cclist at sydex.com Thu Oct 29 14:36:52 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2009 11:36:52 -0800 Subject: Arpanet article on CNN In-Reply-To: <4AE9DB72.7090307@bitsavers.org> References: <4AE9D760.1080500@snarc.net>, <4AE9DAE8.80303@bitsavers.org>, <4AE9DB72.7090307@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4AE97E54.20975.6CF83D@cclist.sydex.com> On 29 Oct 2009 at 11:14, Al Kossow wrote: > http://www.pcworld.com/article/174667/happy_40th_birthday_internet.htm A similar article on the Beeb: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/8331253.stm --Chuck From arcarlini at iee.org Thu Oct 29 14:35:04 2009 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2009 19:35:04 -0000 Subject: Stockholm PDP-10s (was: Kiel PDP-10) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5802C4D84BE345A6B59685242CBA4188@ANTONIOPC> cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org wrote: > In that case, unless Peter or someone else has done the work > to make the Toad-1 speak DECnet, no one's Toad-1, Peter's or > any other, will ever be on HECNET. The management at XKL > absolutely forbade the software people to work on DECnet, for > reasons obvious to anyone knowing the company history. Can those of us who don't know ask? Antonio From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Oct 29 14:45:50 2009 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2009 15:45:50 -0400 Subject: Stockholm PDP-10s In-Reply-To: <5802C4D84BE345A6B59685242CBA4188@ANTONIOPC> References: <5802C4D84BE345A6B59685242CBA4188@ANTONIOPC> Message-ID: <4AE9F0EE.50807@gmail.com> arcarlini at iee.org wrote: > cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org wrote: > >> In that case, unless Peter or someone else has done the work >> to make the Toad-1 speak DECnet, no one's Toad-1, Peter's or >> any other, will ever be on HECNET. The management at XKL >> absolutely forbade the software people to work on DECnet, for >> reasons obvious to anyone knowing the company history. > > Can those of us who don't know ask? Indeed. Inquiring minds want to know. (I want to know!) Peace... Sridhar From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 29 15:49:18 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2009 20:49:18 +0000 (GMT) Subject: A few classic computer photos In-Reply-To: <20091028132905.X9898@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Oct 28, 9 01:31:37 pm Message-ID: > > On Wed, 28 Oct 2009, Tony Duell wrote: > > I've put a few photos of mostly classic computer stuff on flickr. From > > How did you digitize them? I didn't, the minilab did :-) I took them with an ancient 35mm SLR. The minilab who processed the films offered to put them on CD-ROM for a little (very little) extra money. And I finally found an internet cafe that would let me upload said images (Yes, I do own a CR-ROM drive, but I don't have a fast connection.). The resolution on the film negatives is considerably higher than said scans, but IMHO they were good enough to upload. And of course I have the negatives if I want to make any larger prints. > Did you finally succumb to owning a scanner, or a digital camera? > > > I'm buying a Panasonic Micro-Four-Thirds camera body - I can put Leica > lenses on it! I'll stick to my good old mechnaical Leicas. The later one actually contains electrical components (the flash sync contacts), the older one has nothing electrical _at all_. -tony From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Oct 29 16:30:52 2009 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2009 14:30:52 -0700 Subject: Stockholm PDP-10s In-Reply-To: <4AE9F0EE.50807@gmail.com> References: <5802C4D84BE345A6B59685242CBA4188@ANTONIOPC> <4AE9F0EE.50807@gmail.com> Message-ID: At 3:45 PM -0400 10/29/09, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >arcarlini at iee.org wrote: >>cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org wrote: >> >>>In that case, unless Peter or someone else has done the work >>>to make the Toad-1 speak DECnet, no one's Toad-1, Peter's or >>>any other, will ever be on HECNET. The management at XKL >>>absolutely forbade the software people to work on DECnet, for >>>reasons obvious to anyone knowing the company history. >> >>Can those of us who don't know ask? > >Indeed. Inquiring minds want to know. > >(I want to know!) The founders of XKL came from Cisco, I would assume this has something to do with it. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Thu Oct 29 16:38:53 2009 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2009 14:38:53 -0700 Subject: Arpanet article on CNN References: <4AE9D760.1080500@snarc.net>, <4AE9DAE8.80303@bitsavers.org>, <4AE9DB72.7090307@bitsavers.org> <4AE97E54.20975.6CF83D@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4AEA0B6C.69749A56@cs.ubc.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote: > > On 29 Oct 2009 at 11:14, Al Kossow wrote: > > > http://www.pcworld.com/article/174667/happy_40th_birthday_internet.htm > > A similar article on the Beeb: > > http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/8331253.stm Kleinrock was also interviewed on CBC Radio yesterday, telling the story of the Stanford and UCLA machines being connected and the crash after l-o-g was typed in. He was being touted as the "Father of the Internet" by the interviewer. I have no wish to detract from Kleinrock's contributions and I haven't looked in depth into who did exactly what, but putting these monikers on a solitary person is usually putting one's foot in it. I just wish these reports would acknowledge that computer networking began over a decade before this (SAGE,SABRE,etc). From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Oct 29 17:22:49 2009 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2009 15:22:49 -0700 Subject: Arpanet article on CNN In-Reply-To: <4AEA0B6C.69749A56@cs.ubc.ca> References: <4AE9D760.1080500@snarc.net>, <4AE9DAE8.80303@bitsavers.org>, <4AE9DB72.7090307@bitsavers.org> <4AE97E54.20975.6CF83D@cclist.sydex.com> <4AEA0B6C.69749A56@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <4AEA15B9.1000805@bitsavers.org> Brent Hilpert wrote: > I just wish these reports would acknowledge that computer networking began over > a decade before this (SAGE,SABRE,etc). > They are concerning themselves with the ARPANET, which begat TCP/IP, which became the protocol upon which the interconnected networks (Internet) rely on today. "Firsts", like standards, are a wonderful thing since there are so many to choose from. From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Thu Oct 29 18:42:01 2009 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2009 16:42:01 -0700 Subject: Arpanet article on CNN References: <4AE9D760.1080500@snarc.net>, <4AE9DAE8.80303@bitsavers.org>, <4AE9DB72.7090307@bitsavers.org> <4AE97E54.20975.6CF83D@cclist.sydex.com> <4AEA0B6C.69749A56@cs.ubc.ca> <4AEA15B9.1000805@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4AEA2849.C5AB82BE@cs.ubc.ca> Al Kossow wrote: > > Brent Hilpert wrote: > > > I just wish these reports would acknowledge that computer networking began over > > a decade before this (SAGE,SABRE,etc). > > > They are concerning themselves with the ARPANET, which begat TCP/IP, which became > the protocol upon which the interconnected networks (Internet) rely on today. Yes, you and I and many realise that, just that the lack of precision in phrasing or reference can leave many others - even those (perhaps younger) with some background in computers - with some misunderstanding. > "Firsts", like standards, are a wonderful thing since there are so many to choose from. From RichA at vulcan.com Thu Oct 29 18:46:52 2009 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2009 16:46:52 -0700 Subject: Stockholm PDP-10s In-Reply-To: References: <5802C4D84BE345A6B59685242CBA4188@ANTONIOPC> <4AE9F0EE.50807@gmail.com> Message-ID: > From: Zane H. Healy > Sent: Thursday, October 29, 2009 2:31 PM > At 3:45 PM -0400 10/29/09, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >> arcarlini at iee.org wrote: >>> cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org wrote: >>>> In that case, unless Peter or someone else has done the work >>>> to make the Toad-1 speak DECnet, no one's Toad-1, Peter's or >>>> any other, will ever be on HECNET. The management at XKL >>>> absolutely forbade the software people to work on DECnet, for >>>> reasons obvious to anyone knowing the company history. >>> Can those of us who don't know ask? >> Indeed. Inquiring minds want to know. >> (I want to know!) > The founders of XKL came from Cisco, I would assume this has > something to do with it. The founders of XKL are *the founders* Of 'cisco Systems (as it was originally spelt). The original 'cisco business plan was to build a PDP-10 clone, codenamed "TOAD" (for "Ten On A Desk"); the router thing was a small sideline that provided a positive cash flow. The VC Board of Directors changed the company's focus a bit. The founders left. XKL is entirely privately held. From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Oct 29 19:06:09 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2009 20:06:09 -0400 Subject: Stockholm PDP-10s In-Reply-To: References: <5802C4D84BE345A6B59685242CBA4188@ANTONIOPC> <4AE9F0EE.50807@gmail.com> Message-ID: > The founders of XKL are *the founders* Of 'cisco Systems (as it was originally > spelt). ?The original 'cisco business plan was to build a PDP-10 clone, > codenamed "TOAD" (for "Ten On A Desk"); the router thing was a small sideline > that provided a positive cash flow. ?The VC Board of Directors changed the > company's focus a bit. ?The founders left. One might say that was one of the best business moves ever in the history of computing. -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Oct 29 19:23:27 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2009 20:23:27 -0400 Subject: Stockholm PDP-10s (was: Kiel PDP-10) In-Reply-To: References: <4AE89493.3040407@softjar.se> Message-ID: > No one has a PDP-6. ?No one. ?:-((( Well, no one is talking anyway. If a PDP-6 is left in this world, it would be in a private collection and hidden from view. Being how legendary a PDP-6 is, it would not be a huge shock to me if one surfaces some day, out of one of these private piles*. That is the thing about mainframe collectors - we tend to be extremely tight lipped. I am a loud-mouth in this respect - most big iron collectors with the *good* *stuff* will never say a word until they gain trust in who is asking. Part of this is right in line with collectors of high end antiques - advertising a collection is an invite for hordes of people trying to pry the goods away, or in extreme cases, theft and destruction. For example, I have recently been thrown into the world of CDC in a pretty big way. Previous to this, I knew of very few collectors and very few remaining machines, Cybers or otherwise. Now, the veil has been pierced, showing a whole underworld of collectors and machines - and some amazing things. But I ain't talkin'. * No, I do not know of a remaining PDP-6. -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Oct 29 19:25:38 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2009 20:25:38 -0400 Subject: Fwd: sgi In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > Aquired an Onyx w/RE2 for the *** already, and have the guts > of an Origin-2000 coming, for me. > > I was offered the stripped cardcage of the graphics part of > a rack Onyx2 - IR I guess? I don't want it. Would you like it? > It's free anyways. Any interest? I can forward stuff to the owner. Located in Providence. -- Will From IanK at vulcan.com Thu Oct 29 21:21:54 2009 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2009 19:21:54 -0700 Subject: Stockholm PDP-10s (was: Kiel PDP-10) In-Reply-To: References: <4AE89493.3040407@softjar.se> , Message-ID: Given that only 23 were ever sold, the odds aren't good.... -- Ian ________________________________________ From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of William Donzelli [wdonzelli at gmail.com] Sent: Thursday, October 29, 2009 5:23 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Stockholm PDP-10s (was: Kiel PDP-10) > No one has a PDP-6. No one. :-((( Well, no one is talking anyway. If a PDP-6 is left in this world, it would be in a private collection and hidden from view. Being how legendary a PDP-6 is, it would not be a huge shock to me if one surfaces some day, out of one of these private piles*. That is the thing about mainframe collectors - we tend to be extremely tight lipped. I am a loud-mouth in this respect - most big iron collectors with the *good* *stuff* will never say a word until they gain trust in who is asking. Part of this is right in line with collectors of high end antiques - advertising a collection is an invite for hordes of people trying to pry the goods away, or in extreme cases, theft and destruction. For example, I have recently been thrown into the world of CDC in a pretty big way. Previous to this, I knew of very few collectors and very few remaining machines, Cybers or otherwise. Now, the veil has been pierced, showing a whole underworld of collectors and machines - and some amazing things. But I ain't talkin'. * No, I do not know of a remaining PDP-6. -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Oct 29 21:38:38 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2009 22:38:38 -0400 Subject: Stockholm PDP-10s (was: Kiel PDP-10) In-Reply-To: References: <4AE89493.3040407@softjar.se> Message-ID: > Given that only 23 were ever sold, the odds aren't good.... ?-- Ian Nope, not good at all. But the tremendous demand and magic aura of the PDP-6 might bend those odds. -- Will From brianlanning at gmail.com Thu Oct 29 22:27:35 2009 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2009 22:27:35 -0500 Subject: hp laserjet 3 and jetlan interface In-Reply-To: References: <6dbe3c380910282151u11196a53obf62cd2200402fbc@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6dbe3c380910292027g793a1745re1f83a40f2f0b5c9@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, Oct 29, 2009 at 12:07 AM, Teo Zenios wrote: > What OS are you using? On my HP 4 Si there is software called jetadmin > (different versions for 9x and 2k). Basically you use the printer control > panel to setup the card, and the software allows you to change any setting > you like from another PC. > > Software seems hard to find these days for older systems. > I was expecting the jetlan card to add some menu options to the printer, but it looks like that didn't happen. I think you need the software. The printer predates (the wide-spread use of) the internet. In the past, I've found that old but uncommon information like that just didn't make it out there. It's not a big deal. I can always use a parallel cable. brian From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Thu Oct 29 22:45:51 2009 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza) Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2009 01:45:51 -0200 Subject: hp laserjet 3 and jetlan interface In-Reply-To: <6dbe3c380910292027g793a1745re1f83a40f2f0b5c9@mail.gmail.com> References: <6dbe3c380910282151u11196a53obf62cd2200402fbc@mail.gmail.com> <6dbe3c380910292027g793a1745re1f83a40f2f0b5c9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4a15f9590910292045y6b9d7752ie380fd5c1797ddbb@mail.gmail.com> As far as I know it HAS to add some options to the menu of your printer, so you woundn't have a way to set the IP address et al. There is something wrong with your printer, interface or installation. In windows XP you just add a TCP port. In older OS...who knows? On Fri, Oct 30, 2009 at 1:27 AM, Brian Lanning wrote: > On Thu, Oct 29, 2009 at 12:07 AM, Teo Zenios wrote: > > > What OS are you using? On my HP 4 Si there is software called jetadmin > > (different versions for 9x and 2k). Basically you use the printer control > > panel to setup the card, and the software allows you to change any > setting > > you like from another PC. > > > > Software seems hard to find these days for older systems. > > > > I was expecting the jetlan card to add some menu options to the printer, > but > it looks like that didn't happen. I think you need the software. The > printer predates (the wide-spread use of) the internet. In the past, I've > found that old but uncommon information like that just didn't make it out > there. > > It's not a big deal. I can always use a parallel cable. > > brian > From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Thu Oct 29 23:10:25 2009 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2009 21:10:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Stockholm PDP-10s In-Reply-To: References: <5802C4D84BE345A6B59685242CBA4188@ANTONIOPC> <4AE9F0EE.50807@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 29 Oct 2009, Rich Alderson wrote: >>>>> In that case, unless Peter or someone else has done the work >>>>> to make the Toad-1 speak DECnet, no one's Toad-1, Peter's or >>>>> any other, will ever be on HECNET. The management at XKL >>>>> absolutely forbade the software people to work on DECnet, for >>>>> reasons obvious to anyone knowing the company history. > >>>> Can those of us who don't know ask? > >>> Indeed. Inquiring minds want to know. > >>> (I want to know!) > >> The founders of XKL came from Cisco, I would assume this has >> something to do with it. > > The founders of XKL are *the founders* Of 'cisco Systems (as it was > originally spelt). The original 'cisco business plan was to build a > PDP-10 clone, codenamed "TOAD" (for "Ten On A Desk"); the router thing > was a small sideline that provided a positive cash flow. The VC Board > of Directors changed the company's focus a bit. The founders left. > > XKL is entirely privately held. Is there more? I don't see why that would have put them off doing DECnet. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From teoz at neo.rr.com Fri Oct 30 00:43:06 2009 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2009 01:43:06 -0400 Subject: hp laserjet 3 and jetlan interface References: <6dbe3c380910282151u11196a53obf62cd2200402fbc@mail.gmail.com> <6dbe3c380910292027g793a1745re1f83a40f2f0b5c9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <98EF8F4667FD4FAFA35642CB44AC39C3@dell8300> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brian Lanning" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, October 29, 2009 11:27 PM Subject: Re: hp laserjet 3 and jetlan interface > On Thu, Oct 29, 2009 at 12:07 AM, Teo Zenios wrote: > >> What OS are you using? On my HP 4 Si there is software called jetadmin >> (different versions for 9x and 2k). Basically you use the printer control >> panel to setup the card, and the software allows you to change any >> setting >> you like from another PC. >> >> Software seems hard to find these days for older systems. >> > > I was expecting the jetlan card to add some menu options to the printer, > but > it looks like that didn't happen. I think you need the software. The > printer predates (the wide-spread use of) the internet. In the past, I've > found that old but uncommon information like that just didn't make it out > there. > > It's not a big deal. I can always use a parallel cable. > >brian I think it is under a MIO submenu for each card in the system (from the front control panel). From what I remember you can print the current card configuration from that menu. Did you do a printer configuration dump to see if the system shows a network card installed (but not configured)? From brianlanning at gmail.com Fri Oct 30 06:48:29 2009 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2009 06:48:29 -0500 Subject: hp laserjet 3 and jetlan interface In-Reply-To: <98EF8F4667FD4FAFA35642CB44AC39C3@dell8300> References: <6dbe3c380910282151u11196a53obf62cd2200402fbc@mail.gmail.com> <6dbe3c380910292027g793a1745re1f83a40f2f0b5c9@mail.gmail.com> <98EF8F4667FD4FAFA35642CB44AC39C3@dell8300> Message-ID: <6dbe3c380910300448g4fea0c2ah15a1b38c340362a1@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, Oct 30, 2009 at 12:43 AM, Teo Zenios wrote: > I think it is under a MIO submenu for each card in the system (from the > front control panel). From what I remember you can print the current card > configuration from that menu. Did you do a printer configuration dump to see > if the system shows a network card installed (but not configured)? > > I haven't had time to look at it more. But I didn't see anything different on the menus. The network card is getting power though because there's lights on it, and the lights blink correctly for a network interface. I'll dig more this weekend. brian From dkelvey at hotmail.com Fri Oct 30 09:30:05 2009 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2009 07:30:05 -0700 Subject: covers for your Nicolet 1080 In-Reply-To: <46B1F542.10304@sbcglobal.net> References: Message-ID: <46B1F542.10304 at sbcglobal.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Hi Bob I was looking at ebay and noticed they had a 1170 ( 1174 ) for sale. The unit is in Morgan Hill ( at least the seller is ). It seem to have the same frame as the 1080. It at least has some core in it but it may be only 18 bits and not 20. I've considered buying it but I still haven't started a paypal account. Dwight =20 _________________________________________________________________ Windows 7: It works the way you want. Learn more. http://www.microsoft.com/Windows/windows-7/default.aspx?ocid=3DPID24727::T:= WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WWL_WIN_evergreen2:102009= From dkelvey at hotmail.com Fri Oct 30 09:36:11 2009 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2009 07:36:11 -0700 Subject: covers for your Nicolet 1080 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Oops! Sent to the wrong place. I'll try again Dwight ---------------------------------------- > From: dkelvey at hotmail.com > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: covers for your Nicolet 1080 > Date: Fri=2C 30 Oct 2009 07:30:05 -0700 > > > <46B1F542.10304 at sbcglobal.net> > Content-Type: text/plain=3B charset=3D"iso-8859-1" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > MIME-Version: 1.0 > > > Hi Bob > I was looking at ebay and noticed they had > a 1170 ( 1174 ) for sale. The unit is in Morgan > Hill ( at least the seller is ). It seem to have > the same frame as the 1080. > It at least has some core in it but it may be only > 18 bits and not 20. > I've considered buying it but I still haven't started > a paypal account. > Dwight > =3D20 > _________________________________________________________________ > Windows 7: It works the way you want. Learn more. > http://www.microsoft.com/Windows/windows-7/default.aspx?ocid=3D3DPID24727= ::T:=3D > WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WWL_WIN_evergreen2:102009=3D =20 _________________________________________________________________ New Windows 7: Find the right PC for you. Learn more. http://www.microsoft.com/windows/pc-scout/default.aspx?CBID=3Dwl&ocid=3DPID= 24727::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WWL_WIN_pcscout:102009= From billdeg at degnanco.com Fri Oct 30 13:07:56 2009 From: billdeg at degnanco.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2009 14:07:56 -0400 Subject: DEC Digital Equipment PDP-11/R20 "Rugged" Message-ID: <25d61382$78577825$8557f5a$@com> On Ebay there is a DEC Digital Equipment PDP-11/R20...I may have missed a thread about this, but any info on this? I assume it's just a custom 11/20? Bill From tshoppa at wmata.com Fri Oct 30 13:53:42 2009 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim) Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2009 14:53:42 -0400 Subject: Stockholm PDP-10s In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dwight asks: > Is there more? I don't see why that would have put them off doing DECnet. Decnet has some support in some 80's and early 90's era Cisco products... but it was comparatively poor and incomplete compared to what the competition (especially 3Com) was doing. In my opinion (entirely subjective, no real proof), Cisco support for DECNET and related DEC protocols (e.g. LAT) was purposefully made incomplete or done poorly, so that you'd struggle against it a lot with the glimmer of hope that you might figure it out, but you always feel defeated and sore in the end. 3Com's LAT and DECNET terminal servers were really kick-ass, way better than the overpriced DEC equivalent. LAT really is a pretty spiffy protocol for terminal servers. In the end DECNET Phase V (OSI compatibility) was what killed DECNET. Man, what a mess. I feel sorry for the DEC programmers who labored for what must've been man-millenia putting in every possible OSI bell and whistle when in the end nobody ever wanted any of those bells and whistles! Tim. From RichA at vulcan.com Fri Oct 30 17:40:44 2009 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2009 15:40:44 -0700 Subject: Stockholm PDP-10s In-Reply-To: References: <5802C4D84BE345A6B59685242CBA4188@ANTONIOPC> <4AE9F0EE.50807@gmail.com> Message-ID: > From: David Griffith > Sent: Thursday, October 29, 2009 9:10 PM > On Thu, 29 Oct 2009, Rich Alderson wrote: >>>>>> In that case, unless Peter or someone else has done the work >>>>>> to make the Toad-1 speak DECnet, no one's Toad-1, Peter's or >>>>>> any other, will ever be on HECNET. The management at XKL >>>>>> absolutely forbade the software people to work on DECnet, for >>>>>> reasons obvious to anyone knowing the company history. >>>>> Can those of us who don't know ask? >>>> Indeed. Inquiring minds want to know. >>>> (I want to know!) >>> The founders of XKL came from Cisco, I would assume this has >>> something to do with it. >> The founders of XKL are *the founders* Of 'cisco Systems (as it was >> originally spelt). The original 'cisco business plan was to build a >> PDP-10 clone, codenamed "TOAD" (for "Ten On A Desk"); the router thing >> was a small sideline that provided a positive cash flow. The VC Board >> of Directors changed the company's focus a bit. The founders left. >> XKL is entirely privately held. > Is there more? I don't see why that would have put them off doing DECnet. Actually, I was addressing Zane's comment that they "came from Cisco". Ok. DECnet was, at the time, a proprietary protocol suite, available only for computers from Digital Equipment Corporation. Other companies who wished to develop in that arena had to pay high licensing fees. The founders of Cisco were important advocates of the open nature of TCP/IP. They predicted, correctly, that proprietary architectures like DECnet, SNA & LU.6, and the like, would go by the boards, and saw no reason to expend limited resources on them. From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Fri Oct 30 18:38:33 2009 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2009 23:38:33 -0000 Subject: Options for Installing a TF85 Drive Message-ID: <000c01ca59ba$212c4920$6384db60$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> I was led to believe that a TF series drive might be able to read past a problematic part of a tape I have, and a TF85 has come up on eBay. The problem is that I do not have any DSSI-capable machine and I am not familiar with DSSI. I have a MicroVAX II and it seems I could use a KFQSA, but they seem quite expensive. I also have some VAXstation 3100s and MicroVAX 3100s, which are SCSI. Do I have any other options for installing the TF85? Thanks Rob From glen.slick at gmail.com Fri Oct 30 19:49:23 2009 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2009 17:49:23 -0700 Subject: Options for Installing a TF85 Drive In-Reply-To: <-7854117294479719161@unknownmsgid> References: <-7854117294479719161@unknownmsgid> Message-ID: <1e1fc3e90910301749x4bdaa888te4134ffea757ef99@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, Oct 30, 2009 at 4:38 PM, Rob Jarratt wrote: > I was led to believe that a TF series drive might be able to read past a > problematic part of a tape I have, and a TF85 has come up on eBay. The > problem is that I do not have any DSSI-capable machine and I am not familiar > with DSSI. I have a MicroVAX II and it seems I could use a KFQSA, but they > seem quite expensive. I also have some VAXstation 3100s and MicroVAX 3100s, > which are SCSI. Do I have any other options for installing the TF85? > A KFQSA M7769 isn't very expensive, at least in the US, if you find one at the right time. For example this one went for $25 with bulkhead and terminators: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=350264750147 No idea though if that's the best path to start going down in your ultimate goal of reading a problematic tape. From IanK at vulcan.com Fri Oct 30 22:02:47 2009 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2009 20:02:47 -0700 Subject: DEC Digital Equipment PDP-11/R20 "Rugged" In-Reply-To: <25d61382$78577825$8557f5a$@com> References: <25d61382$78577825$8557f5a$@com> Message-ID: ________________________________________ From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Bill Degnan [billdeg at degnanco.com] Sent: Friday, October 30, 2009 11:07 AM To: cctech at classiccmp.org Subject: DEC Digital Equipment PDP-11/R20 "Rugged" On Ebay there is a DEC Digital Equipment PDP-11/R20...I may have missed a thread about this, but any info on this? I assume it's just a custom 11/20? Bill From IanK at vulcan.com Fri Oct 30 22:02:56 2009 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2009 20:02:56 -0700 Subject: DEC Digital Equipment PDP-11/R20 "Rugged" In-Reply-To: <25d61382$78577825$8557f5a$@com> References: <25d61382$78577825$8557f5a$@com> Message-ID: It's an 11/20 with special hardware features, such as sealed toggles instead of paddle switches, to survive in a 'hostile' environment. It's an 11/20 inside. I saw one of these go for around $1,500 not that long ago, FWIW -- Ian ________________________________________ From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Bill Degnan [billdeg at degnanco.com] Sent: Friday, October 30, 2009 11:07 AM To: cctech at classiccmp.org Subject: DEC Digital Equipment PDP-11/R20 "Rugged" On Ebay there is a DEC Digital Equipment PDP-11/R20...I may have missed a thread about this, but any info on this? I assume it's just a custom 11/20? Bill From IanK at vulcan.com Fri Oct 30 22:06:29 2009 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2009 20:06:29 -0700 Subject: Options for Installing a TF85 Drive In-Reply-To: <1e1fc3e90910301749x4bdaa888te4134ffea757ef99@mail.gmail.com> References: <-7854117294479719161@unknownmsgid>, <1e1fc3e90910301749x4bdaa888te4134ffea757ef99@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Maybe I was lucky, but I didn't pay all that much for my VAX 4000/300, which is DSSI-based. -- Ian ________________________________________ From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Glen Slick [glen.slick at gmail.com] Sent: Friday, October 30, 2009 5:49 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Options for Installing a TF85 Drive On Fri, Oct 30, 2009 at 4:38 PM, Rob Jarratt wrote: > I was led to believe that a TF series drive might be able to read past a > problematic part of a tape I have, and a TF85 has come up on eBay. The > problem is that I do not have any DSSI-capable machine and I am not familiar > with DSSI. I have a MicroVAX II and it seems I could use a KFQSA, but they > seem quite expensive. I also have some VAXstation 3100s and MicroVAX 3100s, > which are SCSI. Do I have any other options for installing the TF85? > A KFQSA M7769 isn't very expensive, at least in the US, if you find one at the right time. For example this one went for $25 with bulkhead and terminators: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=350264750147 No idea though if that's the best path to start going down in your ultimate goal of reading a problematic tape. From oldcpu at rogerwilco.org Fri Oct 30 23:07:10 2009 From: oldcpu at rogerwilco.org (oldcpu at rogerwilco.org) Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2009 22:07:10 -0600 (MDT) Subject: VAX-11/750 w/o POWER OK indication Message-ID: <1256962030.4aebb7ee1885e@www.jblaser.org> After a very long time[1], I have gotten very close to having a functioning power supply. I'm still not quite there by the looks of it. With a dummy load of two automobile headlamps (four filaments wired in parallel) for each of the 2.5V and 5V supplies, I now have pretty decent voltages: 2.54v (2.5V supply main output) 5.21v (5V supply main output) 15.31v -15.18v 5.08v (+5VB) -4.98v (-5VB) 12.09v (+12VB) As far as I can tell, after going through the "H7104 Power System Tech Desc" doc, these voltages are good. Even the slightly high 5V line is within the spec'd range of +/- 5% or 4.75v - 5.25v. Still, I don't see a green POWER OK indication on either the power controller or the cabinet's front panel. What I do see on the front panel is a red FAULT and a green (slightly dimmer) RUN indication, but this is probably because no boards are yet in the backplane. There are no lit fault indicators on the power controller itself, which suggests that the voltages are okay. Another list member who saw similar symptoms on his 11/750 apparently found that it was loose contact in the Power Control ribbon cable, but that doesn't seem to be the case here. To test this further, I toggled the 5V supply's test switch to LO and saw the voltage drop to 4.97V, but the POWER OK lamp still didn't light up, so I don't think the problem has to do with the 5V output being too high. I should put my 'scope on it to see if the output is stable. I'll do that, but I'm guessing that it's going to be good, and I don't know if the power controller is sensitive to that anyway. I haven't checked the POWER OK lamps themselves, and I'm guessing that since there are two lamps, one in the power controller and one in the cabinet front panel (and that they are not simply wired in parallel or serially) it's something else. Maybe the bulbs are ganged together, I'd better check the FMPS again. Before I dig into that aspect further, I wanted to check in with the group and see if anything stands out that I've overlooked, or if you guys think I should check something else before the bulbs. Just want to make sure the PS is in order before loading the boards into the backplane. Many thanks. - Jared [1] Rescued this unit two years ago this month. Turned out to have an empty card cage, and a fault in the PS. I finally traced the PS trouble to two of the four power output diodes in the 5V supply (shorted out, replaced all four), and a poorly contacting connector in the 2.5V supply. Over time I have scrounged up a complete boardset so I should have a functioning system Real Soon Now. From glen.slick at gmail.com Fri Oct 30 23:40:28 2009 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2009 21:40:28 -0700 Subject: Options for Installing a TF85 Drive In-Reply-To: References: <-7854117294479719161@unknownmsgid> <1e1fc3e90910301749x4bdaa888te4134ffea757ef99@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1e1fc3e90910302140m3fdbc7abk357f55b289526487@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, Oct 30, 2009 at 8:06 PM, Ian King wrote: > Maybe I was lucky, but I didn't pay all that much for my VAX 4000/300, which is DSSI-based. ?-- Ian Well there's that option too. I think I only paid $25 for a complete VAX 4000-500 with a DSSI capable KA680 CPU, but then I did have to pay for delivery since it wasn't local and that wasn't cheap, but worth it for the CQD-223 SCSI card the system also contained. But anyway, seems like somewhat overkill if the real goal is simply to read a single tape. Maybe someone local to the OP has a tape drive that might do the trick. -Glen From bqt at softjar.se Fri Oct 30 12:32:52 2009 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2009 18:32:52 +0100 Subject: Stockholm PDP-10s (was: Kiel PDP-10) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4AEB2344.8040800@softjar.se> Rich Alderson wrote: >> From: Johnny Billquist >> Sent: Wednesday, October 28, 2009 12:00 PM > >> Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > >>> Ps. > >>> Checking the archives, both you and Peter posted the link :D > >>> http://www.classiccmp.org/mailman/htdig/cctalk/2003-July/025598.html >>> http://www.classiccmp.org/mailman/htdig/cctalk/2009-January/267600.html > >> Ah. That first link was really good. There people can see what Peter >> have in storage. Most of it very much possible to get running. So he >> have actually four KI10 systems, as well as two KA10, and a bunch of KL >> and KS. It was more than I thought. > >> Looks like a pretty good collection of all 36-bit machines with PDP-10 >> like architecture. Missing is a PDP-6, as well as a few clones. > > No one has a PDP-6. No one. :-((( Afraid you might be right on that one, Rich. :-( >> The SC30 is actually online on HECnet. :-) > >> .ncp tell sol sho exec > >> Node summary as of 28-OCT-09 19:53:09 > >> Executor node = 59.10 (SOL) > >> Identification = Systems Concepts SF CA USA - SC30M - DN-20 4.0 >> State = On, Active links = 0 > >> I think his TOAD-1 is also running, but it don't seem to be online on >> HECnet right now. > > If I understand it correctly, HECNET is a DECnet network, right? Correct. > In that case, unless Peter or someone else has done the work to make the > Toad-1 speak DECnet, no one's Toad-1, Peter's or any other, will ever be > on HECNET. The management at XKL absolutely forbade the software people > to work on DECnet, for reasons obvious to anyone knowing the company history. Hmm. What would prevent it? After all DECnet already exists for TOPS-20. Did XKL make such big, incompatible changes to T20 after they got it from DEC? I would definitely not hold it above Peter to fix it if it didn't work for some reason. He has done things like that in the past. The Toad-1 do have a node number allocated on HECnet anyway. .ncp sho nod toad1 Node summary as of 30-OCT-09 18:29:13 Remote Active Next Node State Links Delay Circuit Node 59.30 (TOAD1) 0 30 60.664 (PDXVAX) Johnny From tingox at gmail.com Fri Oct 30 13:28:07 2009 From: tingox at gmail.com (Torfinn Ingolfsen) Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2009 19:28:07 +0100 Subject: hp laserjet 3 and jetlan interface In-Reply-To: <4a15f9590910292045y6b9d7752ie380fd5c1797ddbb@mail.gmail.com> References: <6dbe3c380910282151u11196a53obf62cd2200402fbc@mail.gmail.com> <6dbe3c380910292027g793a1745re1f83a40f2f0b5c9@mail.gmail.com> <4a15f9590910292045y6b9d7752ie380fd5c1797ddbb@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi, On Fri, Oct 30, 2009 at 4:45 AM, Alexandre Souza wrote: > As far as I know it HAS to add some options to the menu of your printer, so > you woundn't have a way to set the IP address et al. There is something > wrong with your printer, interface or installation. > Well, in the old days some of these printers could use arp + ping to set the ip address. If yoy didn't have the software, that was often the only way. Here is an example: http://forums11.itrc.hp.com/service/forums/bizsupport/questionanswer.do?threadId=1079261 HTH -- Regards, Torfinn Ingolfsen From james at machineroom.info Fri Oct 30 16:08:40 2009 From: james at machineroom.info (James Wilson) Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2009 21:08:40 +0000 Subject: Internal company classic computer event Message-ID: <4AEB55D8.2040804@machineroom.info> Hi all, enough lurking and time to ask a question.... The software company I work for is planning an internal classic computer show as a little light relief near Christmas. We expect a turnout of around 100 people and so far have the following planned: 1) Show as many vinatage systems as possible, ideally working. "vintage" in this context means anything pre-90 as best I can tell but modern rare machine may be shown too. Think ZX81, C64, etc - mostly home machines. I'm personally plannig to show my Transputer collection, though I expect very limited interest :) 2) Have a collection of classic software & games running on emulators "3) retro" music 4) beer and snacks (not vintage) 5) Competitions for high score on classic games and best retro dress! 6) Possibly invite a well known talker or two, depending on how much interest we expect to generate and/or finance. Has anyone helped organise something like this before? is there anything that worked particularly well/failed miserably? This is a small scale fun event and not on the scale of VCF! Many thanks for any advice James From jws at jwsss.com Fri Oct 30 18:40:59 2009 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2009 16:40:59 -0700 Subject: ReNicolet 1080 system on ebay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4AEB798B.2030304@jwsss.com> Dwight's misdirected post sent me looking to see what sort of system(s) were on ebay and besides one digital scope that looks interesting, the following auction has a CDC CMD drive included. Unfortunately it's in Quebec, a bit of a haul for me. Also I hate tearing down an instrument like this one for just one part. However thought I'd post the auction, which is 380165838475 Jim From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sat Oct 31 03:15:22 2009 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sat, 31 Oct 2009 08:15:22 -0000 Subject: Options for Installing a TF85 Drive In-Reply-To: <1e1fc3e90910302140m3fdbc7abk357f55b289526487@mail.gmail.com> References: <-7854117294479719161@unknownmsgid> <1e1fc3e90910301749x4bdaa888te4134ffea757ef99@mail.gmail.com> <1e1fc3e90910302140m3fdbc7abk357f55b289526487@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <003901ca5a02$4e3c4e90$eab4ebb0$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Glen Slick > Sent: 31 October 2009 04:40 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Options for Installing a TF85 Drive > > On Fri, Oct 30, 2009 at 8:06 PM, Ian King wrote: > > Maybe I was lucky, but I didn't pay all that much for my VAX > 4000/300, which is DSSI-based. ?-- Ian > > Well there's that option too. I think I only paid $25 for a complete > VAX 4000-500 with a DSSI capable KA680 CPU, but then I did have to pay > for delivery since it wasn't local and that wasn't cheap, but worth it > for the CQD-223 SCSI card the system also contained. > > But anyway, seems like somewhat overkill if the real goal is simply to > read a single tape. Maybe someone local to the OP has a tape drive > that might do the trick. > > -Glen If there is anyone near Manchester in the UK with a TF drive then let me know. The TF drive itself is not that expensive so I may just get it anyway on the off-chance that a cheaper FKQSA or DSSI machine turns up. Regards Rob From arcarlini at iee.org Sat Oct 31 04:42:39 2009 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Sat, 31 Oct 2009 09:42:39 -0000 Subject: Options for Installing a TF85 Drive In-Reply-To: <003901ca5a02$4e3c4e90$eab4ebb0$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <5A03FF62F99D4B60980B5797710B540D@ANTONIOPC> Rob Jarratt [robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com] wrote: > > If there is anyone near Manchester in the UK with a TF drive > then let me know. The TF drive itself is not that expensive > so I may just get it anyway on the off-chance that a cheaper > FKQSA or DSSI machine turns up. Is it not the case that the TZ85 (SCSI) and TF85 (DSSI) are the same drive, jus twith a different interface? So a TZ85 may be as useful to you in solving your problem. As for solving your problem, a perennial complaint within DEC was "I've somehow started scribbling half-way along a DLT tape but I stopped quickly and I need to get to the half of the data beyond the scribbling". I never saw anyone admit to having one of these problems solved: even when there was a paying customer at the end of a cheque book. The existence of special recovery firmware was firmly denied - and I never saw even a hint that it might exist. So I don't have any reason for believing that a TZ85/TF85 might be any better or worse at reading your data than anything else that can handle your DLT. BTW iirc the TZ86 and TZ87 are (iirc) can read tapes from a TZ85. The TZ87N lost some of the backwards compatibility (to lower costs). Antonio From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sat Oct 31 05:26:23 2009 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sat, 31 Oct 2009 10:26:23 -0000 Subject: Options for Installing a TF85 Drive In-Reply-To: <5A03FF62F99D4B60980B5797710B540D@ANTONIOPC> References: <003901ca5a02$4e3c4e90$eab4ebb0$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> <5A03FF62F99D4B60980B5797710B540D@ANTONIOPC> Message-ID: <003a01ca5a14$9db2b1a0$d91814e0$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of arcarlini at iee.org > Sent: 31 October 2009 09:43 > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > Subject: RE: Options for Installing a TF85 Drive > > Rob Jarratt [robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com] wrote: > > > > If there is anyone near Manchester in the UK with a TF drive > > then let me know. The TF drive itself is not that expensive > > so I may just get it anyway on the off-chance that a cheaper > > FKQSA or DSSI machine turns up. > > Is it not the case that the TZ85 (SCSI) and TF85 (DSSI) are the same > drive, jus twith a different interface? So a TZ85 may be as useful to > you in solving your problem. > > As for solving your problem, a perennial complaint within DEC was > "I've somehow started scribbling half-way along a DLT tape but I > stopped quickly and I need to get to the half of the data beyond the > scribbling". I never saw anyone admit to having one of these problems > solved: even when there was a paying customer at the end of a > cheque book. The existence of special recovery firmware was firmly > denied - and I never saw even a hint that it might exist. > > So I don't have any reason for believing that a TZ85/TF85 might be > any better or worse at reading your data than anything else that > can handle your DLT. > I am basing this on a reply I once got on a newsgroup. See the replies from Ian Miller here: http://groups.google.com/group/comp.os.vms/browse_thread/thread/3a8893f7f6c6 4aab/adb777d3f37ebed?q=jarratt+tk50+tf > BTW iirc the TZ86 and TZ87 are (iirc) can read tapes from a TZ85. The > TZ87N lost some of the backwards compatibility (to lower costs). > > Antonio From arcarlini at iee.org Sat Oct 31 05:44:41 2009 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Sat, 31 Oct 2009 10:44:41 -0000 Subject: Options for Installing a TF85 Drive In-Reply-To: <003a01ca5a14$9db2b1a0$d91814e0$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <724992FF81014F1AAF026B5B8F0E61B1@ANTONIOPC> Rob Jarratt [robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com] wrote: > I am basing this on a reply I once got on a newsgroup. See > the replies from Ian Miller here: > >http://groups.google.com/group/comp.os.vms/browse_thread/thread/3a8893f 7f6c6 >4aab/adb777d3f37ebed?q=jarratt+tk50+tf That's certainly news to me - I've never heard that before. Doesn't mean it's Not got a grain of truth behind it though. The reason given (internally to DEC, by the group responsible for these drives) for not being able to proceed past an inadvertent write (or physical damage) is that the drive is kept constantly synchronised by the stream of data that it reads. Once it loses that synch it no longer knows where it is and cannot recover. The stream of data is then just so much noise. The only recovery possible is at the beginning of a new data stream. Assuming that all of that was true (and, indeed, correctly remembered ...) then once you hit physical damage, the way the drive works will not let you recover data past that point. It's a feature. There may or may not be special firmware, but I've never heard of any. So I'd be willing to believe that a TF drive might handle some issues better than a TZ drive (although I'd prefer to see some corroborating evidence before repeating this meme myself), if you've got a damaged tape I'd be very surprised if either drive makes any difference at all. That's not a reason to avoid a TF85 or TZ85: you never know when you'll need one for some other tape you do want to read. Just don't sped too much! Antonio From arcarlini at iee.org Sat Oct 31 05:51:02 2009 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Sat, 31 Oct 2009 10:51:02 -0000 Subject: Options for Installing a TF85 Drive In-Reply-To: <724992FF81014F1AAF026B5B8F0E61B1@ANTONIOPC> Message-ID: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org wrote: FWIW here's the Hoffman Labs take: http://labs.hoffmanlabs.com/node/473 He doesn't say that data recovery firms necessarily have special firmware for DEC drives but he does imply that they do for some DLT drives. He does say that your drive doesn't have it (unless, perhaps, you are buying it from a data recovery shop :-)). Antonio From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sat Oct 31 06:04:51 2009 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sat, 31 Oct 2009 11:04:51 -0000 Subject: Options for Installing a TF85 Drive In-Reply-To: <724992FF81014F1AAF026B5B8F0E61B1@ANTONIOPC> References: <003a01ca5a14$9db2b1a0$d91814e0$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> <724992FF81014F1AAF026B5B8F0E61B1@ANTONIOPC> Message-ID: <003e01ca5a19$fb620df0$f22629d0$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of arcarlini at iee.org > Sent: 31 October 2009 10:45 > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > Subject: RE: Options for Installing a TF85 Drive > > Rob Jarratt [robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com] wrote: > > > I am basing this on a reply I once got on a newsgroup. See > > the replies from Ian Miller here: > > > >http://groups.google.com/group/comp.os.vms/browse_thread/thread/3a8893 > f > 7f6c6 > >4aab/adb777d3f37ebed?q=jarratt+tk50+tf > > That's certainly news to me - I've never heard that before. Doesn't > mean > it's > Not got a grain of truth behind it though. > > The reason given (internally to DEC, by the group responsible for these > drives) > for not being able to proceed past an inadvertent write (or physical > damage) > is that the drive is kept constantly synchronised by the stream of data > that > it reads. Once it loses that synch it no longer knows where it is and > cannot > recover. The stream of data is then just so much noise. The only > recovery > possible is at the beginning of a new data stream. > > Assuming that all of that was true (and, indeed, correctly remembered > ...) > then once you hit physical damage, the way the drive works will not let > you recover data past that point. It's a feature. There may or may not > be > special firmware, but I've never heard of any. > > So I'd be willing to believe that a TF drive might handle some issues > better > than a TZ drive (although I'd prefer to see some corroborating evidence > before > repeating this meme myself), if you've got a damaged tape I'd be very > surprised > if either drive makes any difference at all. > > That's not a reason to avoid a TF85 or TZ85: you never know when you'll > need > one for some other tape you do want to read. Just don't sped too much! > > Antonio Don't worry, I don't intend to spend too much, and I am not all that hopeful that it will be successful in any case, but the drive may come in useful in any case. Thanks Rob From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sat Oct 31 09:33:54 2009 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sat, 31 Oct 2009 07:33:54 -0700 Subject: ReNicolet 1080 system on ebay In-Reply-To: <4AEB798B.2030304@jwsss.com> References: Message-ID: <4AEB798B.2030304 at jwsss.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Hi Jim You had me going there for a few minutes. I thought another 1080 had shown up. I think these systems used a 1280. One of the last processors made by Nicolet. The spectrometer would be quite useful for some small lab some place that was doing chemical analysis. I've not seen another 1080 on ebay since I bought mine. They are really cool blinking light type machines=2C For there time=2C they were the fastest way to do FFTs. They even have a bit reverse instruction. To my knowledge=2C there are only 5 others in existance. Most have made it to the scrap pile. Sad for such a neat machine. See some hisory of Nicolet at: =20 www.versci.com/ =20 Dwight ---------------------------------------- > Date: Fri=2C 30 Oct 2009 16:40:59 -0700 > From: jws at jwsss.com > To: > Subject: ReNicolet 1080 system on ebay > > Dwight's misdirected post sent me looking to see what sort of system(s) > were on ebay and besides one digital scope that looks interesting=2C the > following auction has a CDC CMD drive included. > > Unfortunately it's in Quebec=2C a bit of a haul for me. Also I hate > tearing down an instrument like this one for just one part. > > However thought I'd post the auction=2C which is 380165838475 > > Jim =20 _________________________________________________________________ Windows 7: It works the way you want. Learn more. http://www.microsoft.com/Windows/windows-7/default.aspx?ocid=3DPID24727::T:= WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WWL_WIN_evergreen2:102009= From snhirsch at gmail.com Sat Oct 31 08:49:24 2009 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Sat, 31 Oct 2009 09:49:24 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Panasonic JA751 8" drive question Message-ID: I just purchased one of these on ebay, but am unable to find even a shred of documentation on the web. It's equipped with a "PC" style 4-pin Molex connector for power, unlike the more usual 6-pin square connector used by all my other 8" drives. What I'd like to confirm is whether this unit can actually run on 12VDC. It does not seem to work correctly with 12V applied, which could suggest either that it requires 24V or is defective. Before I let the magic smoke out of it, does anyone know the proper voltages for this drive? Steve -- From snhirsch at gmail.com Sat Oct 31 15:00:34 2009 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Sat, 31 Oct 2009 16:00:34 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Why I never saw my own posts! Message-ID: Thanks to help from the list admin, I have figured out why I stopped seeing my own posts to the list! Seems that gmail, in the their infinite wisdom, decided that it would be best for me if my own messages were shunted directly to 'archive' and never appear in the incoming folder. There is no control or option that I can find to turn this "feature" off. Subsequently, I've had to change my list subscription to use my ISP's mail service and all is well again. Talk about obnoxious! I'm starting to wonder if gmail isn't more trouble than it's worth. On the good side: It's free and their spam filtering is very effective. On the bad side: They silently drop most binary attachments, both coming and going, with no consistent policy involved that I've been able to determine. And now, this. Steve -- From curt at atarimuseum.com Sat Oct 31 21:45:41 2009 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Sat, 31 Oct 2009 22:45:41 -0400 Subject: Why I never saw my own posts! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4AECF655.6070706@atarimuseum.com> Unfortunately as much as I want to support Google and put a little competitive squeeze on Microsoft, I continually find that Google's offerings always seem a little "green" and in need of some feature-maturing on Googles part... while MS may be the bad-guy in many person's view, the fact of the matter is - their offerings are generally well tailored and sensible (Windows Vista totally aside - ass-backwards, ridiculous OS... ahem...) so their OS may crash, but when it does work, it works damn well.... Curt Steven Hirsch wrote: > Thanks to help from the list admin, I have figured out why I stopped > seeing my own posts to the list! > > Seems that gmail, in the their infinite wisdom, decided that it would > be best for me if my own messages were shunted directly to 'archive' > and never appear in the incoming folder. There is no control or > option that I can find to turn this "feature" off. Subsequently, I've > had to change my list subscription to use my ISP's mail service and > all is well again. > > Talk about obnoxious! I'm starting to wonder if gmail isn't more > trouble than it's worth. On the good side: It's free and their spam > filtering is very effective. On the bad side: They silently drop > most binary attachments, both coming and going, with no consistent > policy involved that I've been able to determine. And now, this. > > Steve > > From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Oct 31 23:08:46 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2009 00:08:46 -0400 Subject: Why I never saw my own posts! In-Reply-To: <4AECF655.6070706@atarimuseum.com> References: <4AECF655.6070706@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <980FE24A-FCA9-4AEC-84F1-B465E2D8FF40@neurotica.com> On Oct 31, 2009, at 10:45 PM, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > Unfortunately as much as I want to support Google and put a little > competitive squeeze on Microsoft, I continually find that Google's > offerings always seem a little "green" and in need of some feature- > maturing on Googles part... while MS may be the bad-guy in many > person's view, the fact of the matter is - their offerings are > generally well tailored and sensible (Windows Vista totally aside - > ass-backwards, ridiculous OS... ahem...) so their OS may crash, but > when it does work, it works damn well.... Urrr? Where did Microsoft come into this situation? Have they built a free email service? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From brain at jbrain.com Sat Oct 31 23:18:28 2009 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Sat, 31 Oct 2009 23:18:28 -0500 Subject: Why I never saw my own posts! In-Reply-To: <980FE24A-FCA9-4AEC-84F1-B465E2D8FF40@neurotica.com> References: <4AECF655.6070706@atarimuseum.com> <980FE24A-FCA9-4AEC-84F1-B465E2D8FF40@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4AED0C14.9060303@jbrain.com> Dave McGuire wrote: > > Urrr? Where did Microsoft come into this situation? Have they > built a free email service? > > -Dave > Hotmail? Jim From legalize at xmission.com Sat Oct 31 23:20:31 2009 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sat, 31 Oct 2009 22:20:31 -0600 Subject: Why I never saw my own posts! In-Reply-To: Your message of Sun, 01 Nov 2009 00:08:46 -0400. <980FE24A-FCA9-4AEC-84F1-B465E2D8FF40@neurotica.com> Message-ID: In article <980FE24A-FCA9-4AEC-84F1-B465E2D8FF40 at neurotica.com>, Dave McGuire writes: > Urrr? Where did Microsoft come into this situation? Have they > built a free email service? They bought one a long time ago. Its called hotmail. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From jws at jwsss.com Sat Oct 31 18:38:02 2009 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Sat, 31 Oct 2009 16:38:02 -0700 Subject: Panasonic JA751 8" drive question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4AECCA5A.8020401@jwsss.com> Before having applied power, you might have wanted to look up some components and buzzed which of the pins that the power pins went to, or looked at any voltage conversion tanks for clues to the supply in and outputs before applying power in any way. It might just be that Molex had cheap connectors that week, and you fried the thing completely (sorry to be down, but it is a common connector) Hopefully it is just that it needs the extra voltage. Weren't some of the 8" drives triple voltage? it might have 5, 12, and 24 on 4 pins as another guess. Jim Steven Hirsch wrote: > I just purchased one of these on ebay, but am unable to find even a > shred of documentation on the web. > > It's equipped with a "PC" style 4-pin Molex connector for power, > unlike the more usual 6-pin square connector used by all my other 8" > drives. What I'd like to confirm is whether this unit can actually run > on 12VDC. It does not seem to work correctly with 12V applied, which > could suggest either that it requires 24V or is defective. > > Before I let the magic smoke out of it, does anyone know the proper > voltages for this drive? > > Steve > > From snhirsch at gmail.com Sat Oct 31 20:03:54 2009 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Sat, 31 Oct 2009 21:03:54 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Panasonic JA751 8" drive question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, 31 Oct 2009, Steven Hirsch wrote: > I just purchased one of these on ebay, but am unable to find even a shred of > documentation on the web. > > It's equipped with a "PC" style 4-pin Molex connector for power, unlike the > more usual 6-pin square connector used by all my other 8" drives. What I'd > like to confirm is whether this unit can actually run on 12VDC. It does not > seem to work correctly with 12V applied, which could suggest either that it > requires 24V or is defective. > > Before I let the magic smoke out of it, does anyone know the proper voltages > for this drive? Some empirical evidence: - The unit has a 7812 (12V) 3-terminal regulator hung off what would normally be the +12V line of the molex connector for, e.g. a 5.25" floppy drive. That input goes through a 100ohm 5W resistor before hitting the regulator. With 12V applied the drive, I see only 9.2V at the input to the regulator and approx. 7V on the other side. Sure _looks_ like maybe it's supposed to see +24V at the top of that resistor, doesn't it? - With 12V applied, the head-load solenoid doesn't reliably pull in on its own. - Head stepper seems a bit anemic. - I can hear the drive motor slow down from the drag when the heads are loaded. - Drive goes through some motions of writing, but won't verify or read anything. How luck should I feel? Should I apply +24V and keep my fingers crossed? Anyone have one of these drives installed and be able to put a voltmeter on it? Steve --