From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Nov 1 00:54:04 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2009 01:54:04 -0400 Subject: Why I never saw my own posts! In-Reply-To: <4AED0C14.9060303@jbrain.com> References: <4AECF655.6070706@atarimuseum.com> <980FE24A-FCA9-4AEC-84F1-B465E2D8FF40@neurotica.com> <4AED0C14.9060303@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <4BE2169C-85B6-4CAC-A29E-4BEFE016CC57@neurotica.com> On Nov 1, 2009, at 12:18 AM, Jim Brain wrote: >> Urrr? Where did Microsoft come into this situation? Have they >> built a free email service? > > Hotmail? They bought that, they didn't build it. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From nico at farumdata.dk Sun Nov 1 03:07:10 2009 From: nico at farumdata.dk (Nico de Jong) Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2009 10:07:10 +0100 Subject: Panasonic JA751 8" drive question References: Message-ID: <5A586DB76C4E41E09EBC7D4AECAF1CC2@udvikling> From: "Steven Hirsch" >I just purchased one of these on ebay, but am unable to find even a shred > of documentation on the web. > > It's equipped with a "PC" style 4-pin Molex connector for power, unlike > the more usual 6-pin square connector used by all my other 8" drives. > What I'd like to confirm is whether this unit can actually run on 12VDC. > It does not seem to work correctly with 12V applied, which could suggest > either that it requires 24V or is defective. What does the stepper motor say, if anything? From pontus at Update.UU.SE Sun Nov 1 04:35:05 2009 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2009 11:35:05 +0100 Subject: DEC Digital Equipment PDP-11/R20 "Rugged" In-Reply-To: References: <25d61382$78577825$8557f5a$@com> Message-ID: <20091101103505.GB10120@Update.UU.SE> It looks a lot like Robert Krtens R11. I'm guessing someone "stole" his picture or he is selling. Somethings happening with his site btw: http://www.pdp12.org/ /P On Fri, Oct 30, 2009 at 08:02:56PM -0700, Ian King wrote: > It's an 11/20 with special hardware features, such as sealed toggles instead of paddle switches, to survive in a 'hostile' environment. It's an 11/20 inside. I saw one of these go for around $1,500 not that long ago, FWIW -- Ian > ________________________________________ > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Bill Degnan [billdeg at degnanco.com] > Sent: Friday, October 30, 2009 11:07 AM > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > Subject: DEC Digital Equipment PDP-11/R20 "Rugged" > > On Ebay there is a DEC Digital Equipment PDP-11/R20...I may have missed a > thread about this, but any info on this? I assume it's just a custom > 11/20? > Bill > > From lproven at gmail.com Sun Nov 1 08:23:20 2009 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2009 14:23:20 +0000 Subject: Why I never saw my own posts! In-Reply-To: <4AECF655.6070706@atarimuseum.com> References: <4AECF655.6070706@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <575131af0911010623g5e560e67l52ee69205202b915@mail.gmail.com> On Sun, Nov 1, 2009 at 2:45 AM, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > Unfortunately as much as I want to support Google and put a little > competitive squeeze on Microsoft, I continually find that Google's offerings > always seem a little "green" and in need of some feature-maturing on Googles > part... while MS may be the bad-guy in many person's view, the fact of the > matter is - their offerings are generally well tailored and sensible > (Windows Vista totally aside - ass-backwards, ridiculous OS... ahem...) so > their OS may crash, but when it does work, it works damn well.... > > > > Curt Personally, I'd disagree. I think that by & large, the simple, elegant Micros~1 products are the stuff they bought in - PowerPoint, Visual Basic, Hotmail, the original MS Mail. The stuff they developed in-house tends to be baroque & needlessly complex - e.g. Exchange Server, Access, or ActiveDirectory. There are some exceptions - I have liked MS Word since the days of MS-DOS, and that's an in-house app, albeit a /very/ old one, and once upon a distant time, I rather liked QuickBASIC, too. For simplicity & minimal elegance, Apple's products are pretty much unbeatable, and have been since the hardware design of the Apple ][. But that's a tired old flamewar I have no wish to re-ignite. As far as the original poster's comment - I use Gmail for ClassicCmp here & *I* can see my own posts just fine! Perhaps it's because I filter CCmp to a custom folder...? -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? LiveJournal/Twitter: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From teoz at neo.rr.com Sun Nov 1 09:08:35 2009 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2009 10:08:35 -0500 Subject: Why I never saw my own posts! References: <4AECF655.6070706@atarimuseum.com> <575131af0911010623g5e560e67l52ee69205202b915@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Liam Proven" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Sunday, November 01, 2009 9:23 AM Subject: Re: Why I never saw my own posts! On Sun, Nov 1, 2009 at 2:45 AM, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: Personally, I'd disagree. I think that by & large, the simple, elegant Micros~1 products are the stuff they bought in - PowerPoint, Visual Basic, Hotmail, the original MS Mail. The stuff they developed in-house tends to be baroque & needlessly complex - e.g. Exchange Server, Access, or ActiveDirectory. Exactly who did they buy Visual Basic from and what was the original name of it? From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Sun Nov 1 10:17:27 2009 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2009 17:17:27 +0100 Subject: A few classic computer photos In-Reply-To: References: <20091028132905.X9898@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20091101171727.9a7d6ba7.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Thu, 29 Oct 2009 20:49:18 +0000 (GMT) ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > > How did you digitize them? > I didn't, the minilab did :-) First I thought you had used a scanning back for your 4x5 view camera. BTW: I am looking for a single shoot scanning back for my 4x5 view camera. Complete with a PowerBook to be portable. That would be a perfect excuse to get me into classic MacOS. ;-) -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From cclist at sydex.com Sun Nov 1 11:43:45 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 01 Nov 2009 09:43:45 -0800 Subject: Panasonic JA751 8" drive question In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: <4AED5851.4733.A052F@cclist.sydex.com> On 31 Oct 2009 at 21:03, Steven Hirsch wrote: > - The unit has a 7812 (12V) 3-terminal regulator hung off what would > normally be the +12V line of the molex connector for, e.g. a 5.25" > floppy drive. That input goes through a 100ohm 5W resistor before > hitting the regulator. With 12V applied the drive, I see only 9.2V at > the input to the regulator and approx. 7V on the other side. Sure > _looks_ like maybe it's supposed to see +24V at the top of that > resistor, doesn't it? This drive sounds a *lot* like the Tandon 848, which also uses a 7812 to drop the +24 to +12. There's also an on-board jumper around the 7812 that allows the drive to work on +12 instead of +24. There's a schematic in the TM848 product spec on bitsavers. --Chuck From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Nov 1 10:58:01 2009 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2009 09:58:01 -0700 Subject: A few classic computer photos In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 8:49 PM +0000 10/29/09, Tony Duell wrote: >I didn't, the minilab did :-) > >I took them with an ancient 35mm SLR. The minilab who processed the films >offered to put them on CD-ROM for a little (very little) extra money. And Here in the US, Costco does a great job in 1 hour and the CD's are far less than it would cost me in time to the scans myself. >The resolution on the film negatives is considerably higher than said >scans, but IMHO they were good enough to upload. And of course I have the >negatives if I want to make any larger prints. Look around, different places scan at different resolutions and charge different prices. The place I had develop a roll of B&W and scan them provided scans that were to low-res to even use online. Costco's scans on the other hand can be used for 8x10 enlargements (I've done this with great results). I'm now developing my own 35mm B&W film and scanning it, as I haven't been happy with the results from the local pro labs. I'm still having them do the 120 and 4x5 since I can't scan those. They seem to do best with 4x5 oddly enough. > > I'm buying a Panasonic Micro-Four-Thirds camera body - I can put Leica >> lenses on it! > >I'll stick to my good old mechnaical Leicas. The later one actually >contains electrical components (the flash sync contacts), the older one >has nothing electrical _at all_. The biggest advantage to your old mechanical Leica's is that your 50mm Leica lens is a 50mm. On the Micro 4/3rds it would basically be a 100mm telephoto. I'd like a Leica and am torn between the M6 or M7 as I like a built in light meter on my 35mm cameras. At 5:17 PM +0100 11/1/09, Jochen Kunz wrote: >First I thought you had used a scanning back for your 4x5 view camera. > >BTW: I am looking for a single shoot scanning back for my 4x5 view >camera. Complete with a PowerBook to be portable. That would be a >perfect excuse to get me into classic MacOS. ;-) I'd rather have one of these for my Hasselblad 500CM than my 4x5. Someone locally was offering one recently that could be used on a Hasselblad or 4x5 for $600, I was definitely tempted, but it was tethered to an ancient PowerBook, AND it was only 6MP. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From halarewich at gmail.com Sun Nov 1 12:54:09 2009 From: halarewich at gmail.com (Chris Halarewich) Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2009 10:54:09 -0800 Subject: Why I never saw my own posts! In-Reply-To: References: <4AECF655.6070706@atarimuseum.com> <575131af0911010623g5e560e67l52ee69205202b915@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6d6501090911011054i2089fe7eu27b4cfac9990106@mail.gmail.com> from wikipeadia History VB 1.0 was introduced in 1991. The drag and drop design for creating the user interface is derived from a prototype form generator developed by Alan Cooper and his company called * Tripod*. Microsoft contracted with Cooper and his associates to develop Tripod into a programmable form system for Windows 3.0, under the code name *Ruby* (no relation to the Ruby programming language ). On 11/1/09, Teo Zenios wrote: > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Liam Proven" > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> > Sent: Sunday, November 01, 2009 9:23 AM > Subject: Re: Why I never saw my own posts! > > > On Sun, Nov 1, 2009 at 2:45 AM, Curt @ Atari Museum > wrote: > > Personally, I'd disagree. I think that by & large, the simple, elegant > Micros~1 products are the stuff they bought in - PowerPoint, Visual > Basic, Hotmail, the original MS Mail. The stuff they developed > in-house tends to be baroque & needlessly complex - e.g. Exchange > Server, Access, or ActiveDirectory. > > Exactly who did they buy Visual Basic from and what was the original name > of it? > > > From teoz at neo.rr.com Sun Nov 1 14:12:47 2009 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2009 15:12:47 -0500 Subject: Why I never saw my own posts! References: <4AECF655.6070706@atarimuseum.com><575131af0911010623g5e560e67l52ee69205202b915@mail.gmail.com> <6d6501090911011054i2089fe7eu27b4cfac9990106@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Halarewich" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Sunday, November 01, 2009 1:54 PM Subject: Re: Why I never saw my own posts! > from wikipeadia > > History > > VB 1.0 was introduced in 1991. The drag and drop design for creating the > user interface is derived from a prototype form generator developed by > Alan > Cooper and his company called * > Tripod*. Microsoft contracted with Cooper and his associates to develop > Tripod into a programmable form system for Windows 3.0, under the code > name > *Ruby* (no relation to the Ruby programming > language > ). > So it wasn't a ready made app like Visio that MS purchased, just a form generator that MS turned into VB using a 3rd party. And like many MS products it took then a few revisions for it to be good enough to use. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Nov 1 14:08:55 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2009 20:08:55 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Panasonic JA751 8" drive question In-Reply-To: from "Steven Hirsch" at Oct 31, 9 09:03:54 pm Message-ID: > Some empirical evidence: The first thing I would do is trace the ground and +5V rails back to the connecotr (if you've not done so already). They should be very easy to find. > > - The unit has a 7812 (12V) 3-terminal regulator hung off what would A 7812 is going to need more that 12V input :-) > normally be the +12V line of the molex connector for, e.g. a 5.25" floppy > drive. That input goes through a 100ohm 5W resistor before hitting the > regulator. With 12V applied the drive, I see only 9.2V at the input to > the regulator and approx. 7V on the other side. Sure _looks_ like maybe > it's supposed to see +24V at the top of that resistor, doesn't it? Indeed it does. > > - With 12V applied, the head-load solenoid doesn't reliably pull in on its > own. > > - Head stepper seems a bit anemic. _Most_ 8" drives have 24V solenoids and motors. The Archive Sidewinder QIC tape drive has a 4 pin Molex power connector, and it uses +5V and +24V (the middle 2 pins being ground). I am told some Sun workstations had power cables with molex connnectors on them, most of which were +5V and +12V, but one was +5V and +24V for the tape drive. Woe betide you if you got that one in the wrong place! > > - I can hear the drive motor slow down from the drag when the heads are > loaded. > > - Drive goes through some motions of writing, but won't verify or read > anything. > > How luck should I feel? Should I apply +24V and keep my fingers crossed? It's up to you. I'd problaby trace out the scheamtics to see just what was going on. But to be honest, with that 7812, it's going to need more than 12V, and 24V sounds likely. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Nov 1 14:21:37 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2009 20:21:37 +0000 (GMT) Subject: A few classic computer photos In-Reply-To: <20091101171727.9a7d6ba7.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> from "Jochen Kunz" at Nov 1, 9 05:17:27 pm Message-ID: > > On Thu, 29 Oct 2009 20:49:18 +0000 (GMT) > ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > > > > How did you digitize them? > > I didn't, the minilab did :-) > First I thought you had used a scanning back for your 4x5 view camera. I wish :-). I do have a scanning digital camera. actually. And it's on-topic here. It's got a linear CCD (I can't remember the resolution, around 2000 pixrls, I think) that's tracked across the frame on a leadscrew. it takes Nikon (35mm SLR) lenses. And it interfaces to a classic PERQ (yes, I have the interface card and software). One day I must get it working. Of course a classic PERQ is not exactlu portable, and the resolution (I would guess about 6 megapixels) was spectacular for the early 1980s, but not very good today. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Nov 1 14:29:12 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2009 20:29:12 +0000 (GMT) Subject: A few classic computer photos In-Reply-To: from "Zane H. Healy" at Nov 1, 9 09:58:01 am Message-ID: > > At 8:49 PM +0000 10/29/09, Tony Duell wrote: > >I didn't, the minilab did :-) > > > >I took them with an ancient 35mm SLR. The minilab who processed the films > >offered to put them on CD-ROM for a little (very little) extra money. And > > Here in the US, Costco does a great job in 1 hour and the CD's are > far less than it would cost me in time to the scans myself. I tend to go to Jrssops (large UK camera shop chain). They do a 30 minute service (for not much more than the 1 hour service) amd will burn the CD. It costs \pounds 1 oe 2 for that IIRC. Not much. Of course I get the negatives, so if I want to make high-tesoultion scans, I can. > > >The resolution on the film negatives is considerably higher than said > >scans, but IMHO they were good enough to upload. And of course I have the > >negatives if I want to make any larger prints. > > Look around, different places scan at different resolutions and > charge different prices. The place I had develop a roll of B&W and Oh, I am sure there are professional labs that will scan to a much higher resuloution. Most of these picures were originally taken to illustrate talks I gave to HPCC. And the resolution was high enough for that. > >I'll stick to my good old mechnaical Leicas. The later one actually > >contains electrical components (the flash sync contacts), the older one > >has nothing electrical _at all_. > > The biggest advantage to your old mechanical Leica's is that your > 50mm Leica lens is a 50mm. On the Micro 4/3rds it would basically be Err, a 50mm lens is a 50mm lens no matter what you put hehind it :-). The fact that a 50mm lens is a 'portrait' lens on my Olympus Pen FT doesn't change the fact that it's still a 50mm lens. And let's not start the myth that focal length affects perspective... > a 100mm telephoto. I'd like a Leica and am torn between the M6 or M7 > as I like a built in light meter on my 35mm cameras. I was lucky. I bought a Leica III (not an M3, a 1933 screw-mount thing) in a local camera shop for a very good price because they said it was totally jammed. After getting it home, I took off the top cover around the shutter speed mechanism, removed the second curtain latch, cleaned it up and put 1 drop of oil on it. Works fine, although sometime I should strip down the slow-speed escapement (it's sticking a bit). And then the same shop offered me a jammed M2, which I also bought. After buying the right ring wrenches, I took that apart too and have got it going, although the shutter tapers at high speeds. Again, I need to do more work on it. -tony From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Nov 1 14:40:59 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2009 12:40:59 -0800 (PST) Subject: Panasonic JA751 8" drive question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20091101123549.F76255@shell.lmi.net> On Sun, 1 Nov 2009, Tony Duell wrote: > It's up to you. I'd problaby trace out the scheamtics to see just what > was going on. But to be honest, with that 7812, it's going to need more > than 12V, and 24V sounds likely. Bizarre speculation: Since most 8" drives use 24V, is there a possibility that this is a 5v&12V drive design, with the 7812 there to adapt it to 24V? Is there ANYTHING on the drive connected to that pin of the connector that does NOT go through the 7812? If not, could you feed it relatively clean 12V downstream from the 7812? From cclist at sydex.com Sun Nov 1 16:11:01 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 01 Nov 2009 14:11:01 -0800 Subject: Panasonic JA751 8" drive question In-Reply-To: <20091101123549.F76255@shell.lmi.net> References: , <20091101123549.F76255@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4AED96F5.28030.135B7C7@cclist.sydex.com> On 1 Nov 2009 at 12:40, Fred Cisin wrote: > Bizarre speculation: > Since most 8" drives use 24V, is there a possibility that this is a > 5v&12V drive design, with the 7812 there to adapt it to 24V? > > Is there ANYTHING on the drive connected to that pin of the connector > that does NOT go through the 7812? If not, could you feed it > relatively clean 12V downstream from the 7812? That's the way the Tandon 848 works--there's an on-board jumper around the 7812, so you can run it on either +24 or +12. (FWIW, this is a drive with a +12VDC spindle motor; not the usual AC line-powered one). --Chuck From glen.slick at gmail.com Sun Nov 1 18:15:37 2009 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2009 16:15:37 -0800 Subject: ebay: Q-Bus SCSI adapter In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1e1fc3e90911011615t6659d3ccn38a9cfb451024452@mail.gmail.com> On Sat, Oct 24, 2009 at 4:59 AM, Richard wrote: > There's a Q-bus SCSI adapter on ebay right now starting at $10. > Seems like a good price and these are handy for a VAX system so you > can use a CD-ROM. > > item # 360200821918 Slightly interesting that the KZQSA went for slightly more than the CMD CQD-223/T that it was listed with at the same time. Has anyone verified that a CQD-220/T or CQD-223/T can be transmorgified into a more useful CQD-220/TM or CQD-223/TM just by replacing the CSR decode chip? I think I have correctly reverse engineered the TM version P22015A PEEL173P CSR decode chip. I just now programmed a replacement PALC22V10 for a CQD-223/M and so far it appears that it is functioning correctly as a CQD-223/TM. (I also replaced the EPROMs with ones cloned from a TM.) I haven't yet tried booting from a SCSI tape and installing to a SCSI disk to make sure it is completely functional as a TM. I haven't tried this experiment yet with a CQD-223/T to CQD-223/TM conversion. From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Sun Nov 1 18:34:36 2009 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Mon, 02 Nov 2009 00:34:36 +0000 Subject: A few classic computer photos In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4AEE291C.30607@philpem.me.uk> Tony Duell wrote: > I tend to go to Jrssops (large UK camera shop chain). They do a 30 minute > service (for not much more than the 1 hour service) amd will burn the CD. > It costs \pounds 1 oe 2 for that IIRC. Not much. ?2 for a "Standard Resolution" CD. For ?4 they should be able to do a "High Resolution" or "Supersize" CD (the terminology depends on who you ask -- old-timers will call it supersize, the "in the middle" group call it 'high resolution', the newbies just give you a blank stare). The difference is that the images on the standard CD are 2 or 3 megapixels -- basically thumbnail size, and good for printing to (maybe) 7x5 at a push. On the hi-res CD, the scanner resolution is increased to "12x8" (it's based on the target image size, not DPI), which equates to (if memory serves) about 10 megapixels. You can push the newer machines higher -- the newer Fuji Frontier570 systems can do "18x12" scanning and printing, which (again IIRC) is about 20 megapixels. It also takes the best part of 40 minutes to scan a 36-exposure strip of 35mm film... I think I'll be keeping my Minolta 5400 Elite around for a while yet. It really does pay to get to know the lab techs -- there are things that the machines can do (or be made to do) that aren't necessarily on the service lists, or they are on the list but the frontline staff don't know about them. The big one is having stuff printed with "auto-correct" off -- the Fuji Frontiers have an automatic colour correction system that completely FUBARs just about any image that's been fed through Photoshop and had colour-correction applied (though it can screw up some digital camera images too). IME most lab techs know about this (it makes orange/red sunsets go *green*!) and also know how to switch the stupid thing off... It also pays to find a lab that follows the maintenance schedules to an insane degree. The Jessops labs I've put prints / negs through have always been well-maintained (again, the "get to know your lab guy" point) but I've seen some pretty shocking things at other high-street chains... > Oh, I am sure there are professional labs that will scan to a much higher > resuloution. And again -- high-street labs can do it, it just takes longer (and sometimes involves asking the person that's actually running the lab). There's generally one or two people in a given store that know the lab machinery inside-out, back-to-front and from behind -- the sort of people who can tell you not only what the component parts of ID-11 are but also how it differs from D76 and how to mix it from scratch. Ideally you want to talk to one of those people :) > I was lucky. I bought a Leica III (not an M3, a 1933 screw-mount thing) > in a local camera shop for a very good price because they said it was > totally jammed. After getting it home, I took off the top cover around > the shutter speed mechanism, removed the second curtain latch, cleaned > it up and put 1 drop of oil on it. Works fine, although sometime I should > strip down the slow-speed escapement (it's sticking a bit). Is there anything you won't strip to pieces and/or (at least attempt to) repair? :) -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Sun Nov 1 18:38:22 2009 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Mon, 02 Nov 2009 00:38:22 +0000 Subject: A few classic computer photos In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4AEE29FE.6030605@philpem.me.uk> Tony Duell wrote: > Do a search for tony_duell to find them.. Don;t try to make sense of the > 'photostream', the sets, howerver, are in a sane order. FYI: a few searches on Flickr for "tony_duell", "tony duell" and various combinations all turned up zero hits... I even tried tagging "tony_duell" onto the URL as a username, i.e. -- no dice. This trick works fine for my Flickr account ()... Cheers, -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From fmc at reanimators.org Sun Nov 1 21:58:24 2009 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun, 01 Nov 2009 19:58:24 -0800 Subject: A few classic computer photos In-Reply-To: <4AEE29FE.6030605@philpem.me.uk> (Philip Pemberton's message of "Mon\, 02 Nov 2009 00\:38\:22 +0000") References: <4AEE29FE.6030605@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <200911020358.nA23wO1j027326@lots.reanimators.org> Philip Pemberton wrote: > Tony Duell wrote: >> Do a search for tony_duell to find them.. Don;t try to make sense of >> the 'photostream', the sets, howerver, are in a sane order. > > FYI: a few searches on Flickr for "tony_duell", "tony duell" and > various combinations all turned up zero hits... It works better if you search "people" for "tony duell", this turns up ...which reminds me, must photograph cat. -Frank McConnell From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Nov 1 21:51:58 2009 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2009 20:51:58 -0700 Subject: A few classic computer photos In-Reply-To: <4AEE291C.30607@philpem.me.uk> References: <4AEE291C.30607@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: At 12:34 AM +0000 11/2/09, Philip Pemberton wrote: >It really does pay to get to know the lab techs -- there are things >that the machines can do (or be made to do) that aren't necessarily >on the service lists, or they are on the list but the frontline >staff don't know about them. The big one is having stuff printed >with "auto-correct" off -- the Fuji Frontiers have an automatic >colour correction system that completely FUBARs just about any image >that's been fed through Photoshop and had colour-correction applied >(though it can screw up some digital camera images too). IME most >lab techs know about this (it makes orange/red sunsets go *green*!) >and also know how to switch the stupid thing off... With Costco you can download the colour profiles for the *SPECIFIC* machine at the location you're using. You need to make sure they know there is something special about your order. The same problem exists with B&W C-41 film, they need to compensate for the fact you're printing B&W "Colour" film, otherwise you get some weird tones. http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/3892314670/ Using the colour profiles and setting them in the image when I export them from Adobe Lightroom results in some fantastic shots from my Nikon D300, and a couple B&W C-41 scans I had printed at 8x10. >It also pays to find a lab that follows the maintenance schedules to >an insane degree. The Jessops labs I've put prints / negs through >have always been well-maintained (again, the "get to know your lab >guy" point) but I've seen some pretty shocking things at other >high-street chains... I've found that I want to take the film in when certain people are working, and the lab isn't to busy. I lucked out today, but then I just had a cheap roll of Fuji 800 speed film that wasn't going to be perfect anyway. Need to do some experiments with a lightmeter and that camera. Question, what do you know about Noristu Koki QSS machines? Do you happen to know if they can handle non-standard frame sizes? Specifically 5 sprockets wide? I tried asking today, but the person working was a clueless kid who couldn't grasp the concept. I'm curious if I can run colour print film through my Stereo Realist 3D camera, and have them scan the negatives. My first experiment will probably be with a roll of T-Max 400 B&W that I can develop and scan myself. >>I was lucky. I bought a Leica III (not an M3, a 1933 screw-mount >>thing) in a local camera shop for a very good price because they >>said it was totally jammed. After getting it home, I took off the >>top cover around the shutter speed mechanism, removed the second >>curtain latch, cleaned it up and put 1 drop of oil on it. Works >>fine, although sometime I should strip down the slow-speed >>escapement (it's sticking a bit). > >Is there anything you won't strip to pieces and/or (at least attempt >to) repair? :) No kidding, I'm still trying to work up the nerve to work on a Minolta A-2 Rangefinder that didn't cost me a dime. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From jws at jwsss.com Sun Nov 1 04:19:07 2009 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Sun, 01 Nov 2009 02:19:07 -0800 Subject: Panasonic JA751 8" drive question In-Reply-To: <5A586DB76C4E41E09EBC7D4AECAF1CC2@udvikling> References: <5A586DB76C4E41E09EBC7D4AECAF1CC2@udvikling> Message-ID: <4AED609B.9030209@jwsss.com> I don't know that you would want to apply 24v across a 12v regulator, might be less than that to be sufficient, maybe +18 or +15 to kick the regulator output up to +12 you need. Nico de Jong wrote: > From: "Steven Hirsch" >> I just purchased one of these on ebay, but am unable to find even a >> shred of documentation on the web. >> >> It's equipped with a "PC" style 4-pin Molex connector for power, >> unlike the more usual 6-pin square connector used by all my other 8" >> drives. What I'd like to confirm is whether this unit can actually >> run on 12VDC. It does not seem to work correctly with 12V applied, >> which could suggest either that it requires 24V or is defective. > > What does the stepper motor say, if anything? > > From snhirsch at gmail.com Sun Nov 1 07:30:45 2009 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2009 08:30:45 -0500 (EST) Subject: Panasonic JA751 8" drive question In-Reply-To: <5A586DB76C4E41E09EBC7D4AECAF1CC2@udvikling> References: <5A586DB76C4E41E09EBC7D4AECAF1CC2@udvikling> Message-ID: On Sun, 1 Nov 2009, Nico de Jong wrote: > From: "Steven Hirsch" >> I just purchased one of these on ebay, but am unable to find even a shred >> of documentation on the web. >> >> It's equipped with a "PC" style 4-pin Molex connector for power, unlike the >> more usual 6-pin square connector used by all my other 8" drives. What I'd >> like to confirm is whether this unit can actually run on 12VDC. It does not >> seem to work correctly with 12V applied, which could suggest either that it >> requires 24V or is defective. > > What does the stepper motor say, if anything? No markings at all on the stepper motor. But, all the caps on the board are 50V rating. -- From snhirsch at gmail.com Sun Nov 1 07:36:00 2009 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2009 08:36:00 -0500 (EST) Subject: Panasonic JA751 8" drive question In-Reply-To: <4AECCA5A.8020401@jwsss.com> References: <4AECCA5A.8020401@jwsss.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 31 Oct 2009, jim s wrote: > Before having applied power, you might have wanted to look up some components > and buzzed which of the pins that the power pins went to, or looked at any > voltage conversion tanks for clues to the supply in and outputs before > applying power in any way. It might just be that Molex had cheap connectors > that week, and you fried the thing completely (sorry to be down, but it is a > common connector) Not likely that I fried it. It goes through the motions of working: motor spins, head-load solenoid tries to engage. Stepper steps (although a bit haltingly). This unit is WAY too recent to be a three-voltage drive. It's the most contemporary 8" drive design I've ever seen, in fact. That's why I thought it was at least plausible that it ran on 12V! I'm going to go for it and try a higher voltage. There's no reason that a 12V regulator would be hung off the input - through a 100-ohm, 5W resistor - unless there was supposed to be > 12V applied. Steve -- From snhirsch at gmail.com Sun Nov 1 07:59:12 2009 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2009 08:59:12 -0500 (EST) Subject: Panasonic JA751 8" drive question In-Reply-To: <4AED609B.9030209@jwsss.com> References: <5A586DB76C4E41E09EBC7D4AECAF1CC2@udvikling> <4AED609B.9030209@jwsss.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 1 Nov 2009, jim s wrote: > I don't know that you would want to apply 24v across a 12v regulator, might > be less than that to be sufficient, maybe +18 or +15 to kick the regulator > output up to +12 you need. I was feeling lucky, so I tried feeding it 24V on the pin leading to the 12V regulator. No smoke, all voltages looked rational on the board and the unit started working properly :-). Definitely a piece of information for the archives. First time I've seen that particular PC-ish Molex connector used for anything other than +5-GND-+12. Now, if I could only figure out the proper jumpering to keep the drive motor off until selected... There seems to be virtually no information available on this unit. Best I can determine, it was an OEM part used by GE medical imaging equipment. Steve -- From snhirsch at gmail.com Sun Nov 1 15:11:13 2009 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2009 16:11:13 -0500 (EST) Subject: Panasonic JA751 8" drive question In-Reply-To: <20091101123549.F76255@shell.lmi.net> References: <20091101123549.F76255@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 1 Nov 2009, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Sun, 1 Nov 2009, Tony Duell wrote: >> It's up to you. I'd problaby trace out the scheamtics to see just what >> was going on. But to be honest, with that 7812, it's going to need more >> than 12V, and 24V sounds likely. > > Bizarre speculation: > Since most 8" drives use 24V, is there a possibility that this is a 5v&12V > drive design, with the 7812 there to adapt it to 24V? > > Is there ANYTHING on the drive connected to that pin of the connector that > does NOT go through the 7812? If not, could you feed it relatively clean > 12V downstream from the 7812? Yes. From what I can tell, power to the head-load and door-lock solenoids is picked off directly from the +24V input. Looks like the motor PCB is on the far side of the +12V regulator (uses a "pancake" style direct-drive motor with a little speed-control board next to it). Seems to work fine on 24V, which is a relief. This was a brand, spanking new drive that came sealed in the anti-static bag. With a 1986 manufacturing date, it's the newest such unit in my collection. Last hurdle is to figure out if I can setup to have the motor run only on select. There are a few jumpers, but nothing obviously labeled for this purpose. As it is, the motor starts as soon as the diskette is inserted and breaks a photo-sensor - doesn't even need the latch closed. I'd be very surprised if there wasn't a way to change this behavior, but without documentation it may take some playing around. Steve -- From ron_becker at cox.net Sun Nov 1 17:49:28 2009 From: ron_becker at cox.net (Ron Becker) Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2009 17:49:28 -0600 Subject: Philips LDB 4401 cassette tapes Message-ID: <67F062D3559C49FFAFD34BA21D33DA25@sw> Hello, Did you sell all of the LDB 4401 cassettes? If not then please respond with available quanity and price. Ron Becker United States Wichita, KS 67216 From jws at jwsss.com Sun Nov 1 20:39:56 2009 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Sun, 01 Nov 2009 18:39:56 -0800 Subject: A few classic computer photos In-Reply-To: <4AEE29FE.6030605@philpem.me.uk> References: <4AEE29FE.6030605@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4AEE467C.7090403@jwsss.com> Tony, Philip, For what it's worth I saw a problem like this too with the flickr.com search at first. If you bring up the site with www.flickr.com and put in tony_duell for the search you will get the "We couldn't find anything matching your search " page. If you then note that on the line with Search there are three words over what should now be a box with "tony_duell" in it, there are the words Photos Groups People. if you click People, it will find tony_duell and the photos. I don't know if there is a single step way to do the search, but this works. Jim Philip Pemberton wrote: > Tony Duell wrote: >> Do a search for tony_duell to find them.. Don;t try to make sense of >> the 'photostream', the sets, howerver, are in a sane order. > > FYI: a few searches on Flickr for "tony_duell", "tony duell" and > various combinations all turned up zero hits... > > I even tried tagging "tony_duell" onto the URL as a username, i.e. > -- no dice. This trick > works fine for my Flickr account > ()... > > Cheers, From lproven at gmail.com Mon Nov 2 07:24:46 2009 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2009 13:24:46 +0000 Subject: Why I never saw my own posts! In-Reply-To: References: <4AECF655.6070706@atarimuseum.com> <575131af0911010623g5e560e67l52ee69205202b915@mail.gmail.com> <6d6501090911011054i2089fe7eu27b4cfac9990106@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <575131af0911020524j719499ccke45f85cb8c2701d0@mail.gmail.com> On Sun, Nov 1, 2009 at 8:12 PM, Teo Zenios wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Halarewich" > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Sent: Sunday, November 01, 2009 1:54 PM > Subject: Re: Why I never saw my own posts! > > >> from wikipeadia >> >> History >> >> VB 1.0 was introduced in 1991. The drag and drop design for creating the >> user interface is derived from a prototype form generator developed by >> Alan >> Cooper and his company called * >> Tripod*. Microsoft contracted with Cooper and his associates to develop >> Tripod into a programmable form system for Windows 3.0, under the code >> name >> *Ruby* (no relation to the Ruby programming >> language >> ). >> > > So it wasn't a ready made app like Visio that MS purchased, just a form > generator that MS turned into VB using a 3rd party. And like many MS > products it took then a few revisions for it to be good enough to use. Indeed. I do apologise; I appear to have remembered incorrectly. Perhaps I was confusing it with Frontpage, acquired from Vermeer, or Visio, acquired from the eponymous company. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? LiveJournal/Twitter: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From shumaker at att.net Mon Nov 2 08:20:56 2009 From: shumaker at att.net (shumaker at att.net) Date: Mon, 02 Nov 2009 14:20:56 +0000 Subject: spokan craigslist vintage computers In-Reply-To: <575131af0911020524j719499ccke45f85cb8c2701d0@mail.gmail.com> References: <4AECF655.6070706@atarimuseum.com><575131af0911010623g5e560e67l52ee69205202b915@mail.gmail.com><6d6501090911011054i2089fe7eu27b4cfac9990106@mail.gmail.com> <575131af0911020524j719499ccke45f85cb8c2701d0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <110220091420.6794.4AEEEAC80001241400001A8A22216125569B0A02D29B9B0EBF9D0A050E039A089C@att.net> anyone in the Spokane area interested in checking out a Spokane CraigsList item? Item described as "Misc Vintage computers and items - $800" listing id is 1447641794 pics show something of a mess... but equipment dates to Kaypro time frame so who knows? s shumaker From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Mon Nov 2 08:26:57 2009 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Mon, 02 Nov 2009 14:26:57 +0000 Subject: A few classic computer photos In-Reply-To: References: <4AEE291C.30607@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4AEEEC31.7020503@philpem.me.uk> Zane H. Healy wrote: > With Costco you can download the colour profiles for the *SPECIFIC* > machine at the location you're using. You unfortunately don't get the same option with Jessops, but there's absolutely nothing stopping you generating an ICC profile using a Spyder3Print calibrator/colorimeter -- there are two TIFF files in Program Files\Spyder3Print that contain the profile targets. Print these at 12x8 or so (larger prints = easier to scan) then feed them through the S3 software. The Fuji machines have a colorimeter bolted onto the top, and do an automatic colour calibration ("Paper Condition Check") on startup, when the paper magazine is refilled, and 10 days after the paper was last checked. This generally means that the ICC profiles are valid until major work is done on the printer -- a new laser or something along those lines. There's another step above this, too -- external monitoring. Fuji UK offer a service whereby a lab can send a "Control Strip" off for analysis, then get a report back showing the condition of the process chemistry, and any recommendations (e.g. "P1 activity low, add 10ml concentrate to P1 tank"). It's usually done on a fortnightly or monthly cycle depending on the specific location. > You need to make sure they know > there is something special about your order. The same problem exists > with B&W C-41 film, they need to compensate for the fact you're printing > B&W "Colour" film, otherwise you get some weird tones. Yeah, that's always fun. On the older Frontiers (350 and 370 series), XP2 is a pain to print. On the newer machines (570 and later) you just select "Image Source", then "B&W Negative". > Question, what do you know about Noristu Koki QSS machines? Very little -- I've spent most of my time working with the Fuji Frontier machines (a 350, a 370 and a 570). > Do you > happen to know if they can handle non-standard frame sizes? Specifically > 5 sprockets wide? I doubt it. Usually the scans are done through fixed-width 35mm masks. Basically, the scanner consists of a lightbox in the base (Cold Cathode fluorescent in the 300 series, LED in the 570 series), a scanner assembly (auto-feeder or manual feeder) and a CCD scanner plus optics in the top. The negative sits inside a black metal mask -- this prevents light from spreading outside the 24x36mm frame... which prevents you from scanning anything other than (at best) the full frame. What you can (sort of) do is get some medium-thick card (about 200gsm), make up a secondary mask for the film (think "cardboard slide mount"), then use a 120 (medium format) feeder and mask to scan it. The problem is, most high-street labs won't have the 120-size masks on account of cost.. last time I checked, the 120 manual-feed mask was about ?900. > I tried asking today, but the person working was a > clueless kid who couldn't grasp the concept. I'm curious if I can run > colour print film through my Stereo Realist 3D camera, and have them > scan the negatives. My first experiment will probably be with a roll of > T-Max 400 B&W that I can develop and scan myself. Another question from right in the middle of my area of expertise! We've got a regular customer at work who has a Stereo Realist. Basically, he has the individual frames (i.e. the 'left' and 'right' frames) printed separately as 6x4s. Obviously the images are "4x4" square ratio, but when printed on 6x4 paper they're the right size for his 3D viewer. As I recall, he cut down the "frame plus border left and right" images, then glued each pair (left/right) together to fit the viewer. If you wanted them printing as 4x4in, it is possible to do that on a Frontier (and should be possible on a Noritsu QSS or Agfa d-Lab). Basically, you have to set up a custom paper size in the Setup menu -- the catch is you need the Admin password to do this. It doesn't take long to calculate the figures needed, but there are limitations. Most notably, one dimension needs to equal a paper size the lab has. So if you want (say) 4"x9", the lab needs to have either 4" or 9" paper in the print finish you want. For reference, our standard paper "selection" is: 102mm (4"), glossy only 127mm (5"), glossy, lustre and premium (pearl-effect, I've been told it's a bit like "Cibachrome" or "Ilfochrome") 152mm (6"), glossy, lustre and premium (pearl-effect, I've been told it's a bit like "Cibachrome" or "Ilfochrome") 254mm (10"), glossy and lustre 305mm (12"), glossy and lustre The 102mm (4") paper is generally only used for APS (Advanced Photo System) printing. One useful print size the printers can do with the factory configuration is 7.5x5" -- a bit larger than a 7x5 print, but at the same aspect ratio as a 35mm frame, so no cropping on the sides. >> Is there anything you won't strip to pieces and/or (at least attempt >> to) repair? :) > > No kidding, I'm still trying to work up the nerve to work on a Minolta > A-2 Rangefinder that didn't cost me a dime. I tried to fix my Minolta 5400 film scanner before I sent it in -- stripped it to bits, cleaned all the detection sensors, reflex mirror (which was caked in dust) and CCD, then ended up replacing a few of the motor drive chips on the PCB (some of the stepper motors weren't moving properly). No dice, still wouldn't work... I got it back last week -- the repair note just says "Replaced main PCB, checked, cleaned and tested." I figure one of the AVISION controller chips probably packed in... But anyway, it's behaving itself now. I've just bought some Ilford film, ID-11 developer and other darkroom kit -- I'm planning to start doing a bit of B&W work again. XP2 (Ilford colour-process B&W film) is fine for what it is, but sometimes it's more fun to play with older technology. I'm sure most of you can appreciate that :) -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From jplist2008 at kiwigeek.com Mon Nov 2 09:39:20 2009 From: jplist2008 at kiwigeek.com (JP Hindin) Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2009 09:39:20 -0600 (CST) Subject: Talking to a VAX4000/300 Message-ID: Greetings all; I picked up a VAX4000 last week and have been trying to get talking with it. I found a general VAX4000 series guide which says the terminal settings should be 8N1 and I've got the speed right between the dial on the front of the VAX module and the VT240 I'm using. I get partial data, with ?s scattered all over the place. Frequently it loses carriage returns and things get stuck scrolling off the side of the screen. What am I missing here? Is it not 8N1? I've tried flipping it around to 7N1, 7E1, etc, but usually that just results in absolute gibberish, the 8N1 provides the best signal-to-noise ratio. I'd appreciate any thoughts given. Elsewise, I'm pretty pumped. I have another 4000/300, but it has a bad PSU. I figured I'd put the two together to get the nicest working machine, store the spare PCBs and dump the chassis (anyone want an empty 4000/300?). The unit is complaining about some memory errors (came with four memory boards), but with all the crap coming up on the screen, I'm not entirely positive what it's complaining about since I can only read a partial output... Thanks again; - JP From IanK at vulcan.com Mon Nov 2 10:14:46 2009 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2009 08:14:46 -0800 Subject: Talking to a VAX4000/300 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: What line speed are you running at? I have a 4000/300, too (great machine - congratulations!), and I haven't had that problem with either a VT420 or a terminal emulator. I'm using 8N1, so I'm sure you're right there. But I wonder if the VT240 is just not keeping up with the VAX, i.e. insufficient speed and buffer space. I've seen that before, where a terminal *can* talk 9600 but can't do it for very long. Hm, I think I have a VT240, maybe I should give it a try.... -- Ian ________________________________________ From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of JP Hindin [jplist2008 at kiwigeek.com] Sent: Monday, November 02, 2009 7:39 AM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Talking to a VAX4000/300 Greetings all; I picked up a VAX4000 last week and have been trying to get talking with it. I found a general VAX4000 series guide which says the terminal settings should be 8N1 and I've got the speed right between the dial on the front of the VAX module and the VT240 I'm using. I get partial data, with ?s scattered all over the place. Frequently it loses carriage returns and things get stuck scrolling off the side of the screen. What am I missing here? Is it not 8N1? I've tried flipping it around to 7N1, 7E1, etc, but usually that just results in absolute gibberish, the 8N1 provides the best signal-to-noise ratio. I'd appreciate any thoughts given. Elsewise, I'm pretty pumped. I have another 4000/300, but it has a bad PSU. I figured I'd put the two together to get the nicest working machine, store the spare PCBs and dump the chassis (anyone want an empty 4000/300?). The unit is complaining about some memory errors (came with four memory boards), but with all the crap coming up on the screen, I'm not entirely positive what it's complaining about since I can only read a partial output... Thanks again; - JP From jplist2008 at kiwigeek.com Mon Nov 2 10:27:45 2009 From: jplist2008 at kiwigeek.com (JP Hindin) Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2009 10:27:45 -0600 (CST) Subject: Talking to a VAX4000/300 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 2 Nov 2009, Ian King wrote: > What line speed are you running at? I have a 4000/300, too (great > machine - congratulations!), and I haven't had that problem with either > a VT420 or a terminal emulator. I'm using 8N1, so I'm sure you're right > there. But I wonder if the VT240 is just not keeping up with the VAX, > i.e. insufficient speed and buffer space. I've seen that before, where > a terminal *can* talk 9600 but can't do it for very long. Hm, I think I > have a VT240, maybe I should give it a try.... -- Ian I have it set to 9600 on both sides. I know I used this term to talk to my -other- VAX4000 at 9600, so it really shouldn't be an issue. I'll try dialling down the speeds. It occurred to me that I should see if it still works on the -other- VAX, which I know I used to work with on this term. I thought I'd pop the good PSU out of the new VAX, stick it in the old, and fire it up with the same settings (9600 8N1) and see if it's clear or gibberish, just to exclude some kind of fault in the new VAX. That might be why they dumped it ;) Thank you, Ian. If the old VAX gives the same problem, I'll click the speed back to 1200bps. - JP > ________________________________________ > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of JP Hindin [jplist2008 at kiwigeek.com] > Sent: Monday, November 02, 2009 7:39 AM > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Talking to a VAX4000/300 > > Greetings all; > > I picked up a VAX4000 last week and have been trying to get talking with > it. I found a general VAX4000 series guide which says the terminal > settings should be 8N1 and I've got the speed right between the dial on > the front of the VAX module and the VT240 I'm using. > > I get partial data, with ?s scattered all over the place. Frequently it > loses carriage returns and things get stuck scrolling off the side of the > screen. > > What am I missing here? Is it not 8N1? I've tried flipping it around to > 7N1, 7E1, etc, but usually that just results in absolute gibberish, the > 8N1 provides the best signal-to-noise ratio. > > I'd appreciate any thoughts given. > > Elsewise, I'm pretty pumped. I have another 4000/300, but it has a bad > PSU. I figured I'd put the two together to get the nicest working machine, > store the spare PCBs and dump the chassis (anyone want an empty > 4000/300?). The unit is complaining about some memory errors (came with > four memory boards), but with all the crap coming up on the screen, I'm > not entirely positive what it's complaining about since I can only read a > partial output... > > Thanks again; > > - JP > > > From IanK at vulcan.com Mon Nov 2 10:33:50 2009 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2009 08:33:50 -0800 Subject: Talking to a VAX4000/300 In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: If that doesn't work, another thing that occurs to me is that you might want to take a scope to the serial line. Typically, RS232 requires a voltage that's not used by much else, and if that rail is noisy (from a filter capacitor that's not capaciting, for instance), that might give you this behavior, too, without mucking up anything else. -- Ian ________________________________________ From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of JP Hindin [jplist2008 at kiwigeek.com] Sent: Monday, November 02, 2009 8:27 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: RE: Talking to a VAX4000/300 On Mon, 2 Nov 2009, Ian King wrote: > What line speed are you running at? I have a 4000/300, too (great > machine - congratulations!), and I haven't had that problem with either > a VT420 or a terminal emulator. I'm using 8N1, so I'm sure you're right > there. But I wonder if the VT240 is just not keeping up with the VAX, > i.e. insufficient speed and buffer space. I've seen that before, where > a terminal *can* talk 9600 but can't do it for very long. Hm, I think I > have a VT240, maybe I should give it a try.... -- Ian I have it set to 9600 on both sides. I know I used this term to talk to my -other- VAX4000 at 9600, so it really shouldn't be an issue. I'll try dialling down the speeds. It occurred to me that I should see if it still works on the -other- VAX, which I know I used to work with on this term. I thought I'd pop the good PSU out of the new VAX, stick it in the old, and fire it up with the same settings (9600 8N1) and see if it's clear or gibberish, just to exclude some kind of fault in the new VAX. That might be why they dumped it ;) Thank you, Ian. If the old VAX gives the same problem, I'll click the speed back to 1200bps. - JP > ________________________________________ > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of JP Hindin [jplist2008 at kiwigeek.com] > Sent: Monday, November 02, 2009 7:39 AM > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Talking to a VAX4000/300 > > Greetings all; > > I picked up a VAX4000 last week and have been trying to get talking with > it. I found a general VAX4000 series guide which says the terminal > settings should be 8N1 and I've got the speed right between the dial on > the front of the VAX module and the VT240 I'm using. > > I get partial data, with ?s scattered all over the place. Frequently it > loses carriage returns and things get stuck scrolling off the side of the > screen. > > What am I missing here? Is it not 8N1? I've tried flipping it around to > 7N1, 7E1, etc, but usually that just results in absolute gibberish, the > 8N1 provides the best signal-to-noise ratio. > > I'd appreciate any thoughts given. > > Elsewise, I'm pretty pumped. I have another 4000/300, but it has a bad > PSU. I figured I'd put the two together to get the nicest working machine, > store the spare PCBs and dump the chassis (anyone want an empty > 4000/300?). The unit is complaining about some memory errors (came with > four memory boards), but with all the crap coming up on the screen, I'm > not entirely positive what it's complaining about since I can only read a > partial output... > > Thanks again; > > - JP > > > From cclist at sydex.com Mon Nov 2 11:20:25 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 02 Nov 2009 09:20:25 -0800 Subject: Panasonic JA751 8" drive question In-Reply-To: References: , <4AED609B.9030209@jwsss.com>, Message-ID: <4AEEA459.11452.2442C6@cclist.sydex.com> On 1 Nov 2009 at 8:59, Steven Hirsch wrote: >> Definitely a piece of information for the archives. First time I've > seen that particular PC-ish Molex connector used for anything other > than +5-GND-+12. This drive seems to have been used a lot on GE medical equipment (CT Scan, YAG laser, etc.). I daresay that you'll find a jumper on board that bypasses the regulator to allow you to use +12, +5 as your supply. It makes sense in that light to use the standard 5.25" style 4-pin Molex. --Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Nov 2 11:40:25 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2009 12:40:25 -0500 Subject: Talking to a VAX4000/300 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <548D6412-2889-4497-8A22-75AAC88E11E7@neurotica.com> On Nov 2, 2009, at 11:14 AM, Ian King wrote: > What line speed are you running at? I have a 4000/300, too (great > machine - congratulations!), and I haven't had that problem with > either a VT420 or a terminal emulator. I'm using 8N1, so I'm sure > you're right there. But I wonder if the VT240 is just not keeping > up with the VAX, i.e. insufficient speed and buffer space. I've > seen that before, where a terminal *can* talk 9600 but can't do it > for very long. Hm, I think I have a VT240, maybe I should give it > a try.... -- Ian VT240s, while wonderful in other ways, are very slow terminals. It wouldn't surprise me if he were simply getting overruns. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From thomas.gardner at sbcglobal.net Mon Nov 2 12:21:34 2009 From: thomas.gardner at sbcglobal.net (Tom Gardner) Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2009 10:21:34 -0800 Subject: Kiel PDP 10 and RP02/03 disk drives Message-ID: <3DF1882F3CB94E55956401639031CCEF@tegp4> I sort of missed most of the discussion on the Kiel PDP10 but in going thru some of the dialog I came across this quote from one postings: > The Kiel museum/collectors society who were tracking the University's > computing department's "output" for many years saved a complete system > consisting of two KI10 (not sure, but older than KL10) processors, > memory, drum memory, peripheral controllers, and some peripherals. About > 25 racks. And a row of RP02/03 disk drives. And tons of cables and > documentation. That roughly describes what has been kept in basements > over the last years. > ... > They are in touch with the guy who maintained the machine (the guy with > the lamps). He selected about five cabinets and one RP02 disk drive for > the exhibition. The exact minimum of stuff that can be called "pdp10 > system, complete". The rest has been given away to collectors. I > personally saved some stuff (RP drives, RS04 drives, CR10 card reader), > the biggest part went to collectors who have in mind to get the stuff > working again. I worked on the Memorex 660-1 which is the RP02. The RP02 (Memorex) and RP03 (ISS) are really significant early hard disk drives and I would hope the Computer History Museum would be interested in samples of both. Can someone give me some status - where have they gone and are any still available for collecting? If any are available, I can then work with the museum to arrange for collecting them. If they are not available, it would still be great to know where they are for reference and possible future collection. Tom Gardner Los Altos CA USA From oldcpu at rogerwilco.org Mon Nov 2 14:11:35 2009 From: oldcpu at rogerwilco.org (J Blaser) Date: Mon, 02 Nov 2009 13:11:35 -0700 Subject: Talking to a VAX4000/300 In-Reply-To: <548D6412-2889-4497-8A22-75AAC88E11E7@neurotica.com> References: <548D6412-2889-4497-8A22-75AAC88E11E7@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4AEF3CF7.7010603@rogerwilco.org> Dave McGuire wrote: > > VT240s, while wonderful in other ways, are very slow terminals. It > wouldn't surprise me if he were simply getting overruns. I would be easy to check this, no? Just slow the serial line to, say, 4800 and try again. That would probably go a long way to confirming that the VT240 is getting behind the curve. -- Jared From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Nov 2 13:51:03 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2009 19:51:03 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Panasonic JA751 8" drive question In-Reply-To: <4AED609B.9030209@jwsss.com> from "jim s" at Nov 1, 9 02:19:07 am Message-ID: > > I don't know that you would want to apply 24v across a 12v regulator, It's quite possible (in fact I would say 'likely') that the raw 24V is used for things like the motors and head load solenoid, and is regulated down to 12V for the read amplifier, etc. In which case you would need 24V input -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Nov 2 13:55:35 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2009 19:55:35 +0000 (GMT) Subject: A few classic computer photos In-Reply-To: <4AEE291C.30607@philpem.me.uk> from "Philip Pemberton" at Nov 2, 9 00:34:36 am Message-ID: > Is there anything you won't strip to pieces and/or (at least attempt to)=20 > repair? :) Yes. Pentina, my cat (or more exactly the cat who chooses to live with me). I don;t know enough to do so without fatal results. Pentina cameras are another matter, of course. Those I am happy to repair. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Nov 2 13:57:15 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2009 19:57:15 +0000 (GMT) Subject: A few classic computer photos In-Reply-To: <4AEE29FE.6030605@philpem.me.uk> from "Philip Pemberton" at Nov 2, 9 00:38:22 am Message-ID: > > Tony Duell wrote: > > Do a search for tony_duell to find them.. Don;t try to make sense of the > > 'photostream', the sets, howerver, are in a sane order. > > FYI: a few searches on Flickr for "tony_duell", "tony duell" and various > combinations all turned up zero hits... Hmmm. Obviosuy I don't understand the workings of flickr... Try searching for 'hp9820' (no quotes). That should find some of my pictures, adn I think you can then look for others by that user name. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Nov 2 14:03:18 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2009 20:03:18 +0000 (GMT) Subject: A few classic computer photos In-Reply-To: from "Zane H. Healy" at Nov 1, 9 08:51:58 pm Message-ID: > >Is there anything you won't strip to pieces and/or (at least attempt > >to) repair? :) I always remind myself that many (although by no means all) of the 'official' repairs have much less experince handling tools than I do, and understand less about how the unit _really_ works. They can follow the procedures in the servicce manual, but that's about all. Note I said 'by no means all' -- I've met some repairers who really understand the devices they work on. Anyway, I then feel that if they can do it, so can I. > > No kidding, I'm still trying to work up the nerve to work on a > Minolta A-2 Rangefinder that didn't cost me a dime. In general older cameras are easier to work on then new ones (electronic control is right pain to repair!), and the better cameras are also much easier to work on. I'd much rather strip a Leica than a Kodak -- parts are better made, they fit easily, and so on. The only Minoltas I've seriously been inside are 16mm sub-miniature ones. And they seem pretty well put together. -tony From ploopster at gmail.com Mon Nov 2 14:24:46 2009 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 02 Nov 2009 15:24:46 -0500 Subject: A few classic computer photos In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4AEF400E.6080804@gmail.com> Tony Duell wrote: >> Is there anything you won't strip to pieces and/or (at least attempt to)=20 >> repair? :) > > Yes. Pentina, my cat (or more exactly the cat who chooses to live with > me). I don;t know enough to do so without fatal results. I suppose it might be possible to learn enough to perform this sort of repair successfully. Peace... Sridhar From RichA at vulcan.com Mon Nov 2 15:08:43 2009 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2009 13:08:43 -0800 Subject: Stockholm PDP-10s (was: Kiel PDP-10) In-Reply-To: <4AEB2344.8040800@softjar.se> References: <4AEB2344.8040800@softjar.se> Message-ID: > From: Johnny Billquist > Sent: Friday, October 30, 2009 10:33 AM > Rich Alderson wrote: >>> From: Johnny Billquist >>> Sent: Wednesday, October 28, 2009 12:00 PM >> No one has a PDP-6. No one. :-((( > Afraid you might be right on that one, Rich. :-( I'm pretty sure that I am. At the time of the 1984 DECUS Fall Symposium, the only known PDP-6 in the world was the one at the Stanford Artificial Intelligence laboratory. This was taken to Anaheim to be displayed for the 20th Anniversary of 36-Bit Computing. From there it was destined for the Computer Museum in Boston, but it disappeared into the mists of time. >>> I think his TOAD-1 is also running, but it don't seem to be online on >>> HECnet right now. >> If I understand it correctly, HECNET is a DECnet network, right? > Correct. >> In that case, unless Peter or someone else has done the work to make the >> Toad-1 speak DECnet, no one's Toad-1, Peter's or any other, will ever be >> on HECNET. The management at XKL absolutely forbade the software people >> to work on DECnet, for reasons obvious to anyone knowing the company >> history. > Hmm. What would prevent it? After all DECnet already exists for TOPS-20. > Did XKL make such big, incompatible changes to T20 after they got it > from DEC? There were a number of incompatible changes to TOPS-20, of course. The Toad-1 uses SCSI peripherals instead of Massbus, Stanford/Cisco MEIS-style Ethernet instead of NIA-20, and provides the full 30 bits of address that Digital defined for the extended addressing scheme of the PDP-10 rather than the 22 physical/23 virtual of the KL-10. The Ethernet differences are what would require work in the monitor's DECnet code. > I would definitely not hold it above Peter to fix it if it didn't work > for some reason. He has done things like that in the past. Oh, I know. I've seen his implementation of TCP/IP for Tops-10 v7.02, which used an ANF-10 style connection as I recall. I just don't know that Peter has the time for that. > The Toad-1 do have a node number allocated on HECnet anyway. > .ncp sho nod toad1 > Node summary as of 30-OCT-09 18:29:13 > Remote Active Next > Node State Links Delay Circuit Node > 59.30 (TOAD1) 0 30 60.664 (PDXVAX) Interesting, but it's possible that that's just a place holder in case someone ever does the required work. Rich From IanK at vulcan.com Mon Nov 2 15:12:34 2009 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2009 13:12:34 -0800 Subject: Panasonic JA751 8" drive question In-Reply-To: References: <4AED609B.9030209@jwsss.com> from "jim s" at Nov 1, 9 02:19:07 am Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tony Duell > Sent: Monday, November 02, 2009 11:51 AM > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Panasonic JA751 8" drive question > > > > > I don't know that you would want to apply 24v across a 12v regulator, > > It's quite possible (in fact I would say 'likely') that the raw 24V is > used for things like the motors and head load solenoid, and is > regulated > down to 12V for the read amplifier, etc. In which case you would need > 24V > input > > -tony IIRC, the common LM78xx regulators were fine with input up to 40v. -- Ian From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Nov 2 15:25:05 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2009 13:25:05 -0800 (PST) Subject: A few classic computer photos In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20091102131908.E24246@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 2 Nov 2009, Tony Duell wrote: > The only Minoltas I've seriously been inside are 16mm sub-miniature ones. Need one? Or Minox? or Tessina? > And they seem pretty well put together. Some of the EARLIEST Minoltas were imitation Leicas. I stumbled on one yesterday when I was looking through M39 (Leica screw mount) and C-mount lenses to use on my soon to arrive Micro Four Thirds. I am actively looking for 1/2" and 1" QUALITY C-mount lenses (the Goerz and Leitz C-mount lenses seem to be out of my price reach) Any needs for a Leica lens mount Minolta? (Should I get it out and check its condition?) From brianlanning at gmail.com Mon Nov 2 15:52:27 2009 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2009 15:52:27 -0600 Subject: 386 upgrade boards for IBM 5160s Message-ID: <6dbe3c380911021352s22aa293cg45d2b357806de148@mail.gmail.com> I have a chance to buy an IBM 5160 (pc-xt) with I believe an original CGA (iirc) monitor. The interesting thing is that he seller claims it has a 386-16 upgrade board. What do we know about these? How much would that upgrade board be worth? I'm trying to figure out if his price is fair. brian From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Mon Nov 2 16:15:22 2009 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2009 23:15:22 +0100 Subject: 386 upgrade boards for IBM 5160s In-Reply-To: <6dbe3c380911021352s22aa293cg45d2b357806de148@mail.gmail.com> References: <6dbe3c380911021352s22aa293cg45d2b357806de148@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <3BCDC000CC174A3C8FDA925BEAED6E6A@xp1800> At some point in PC history upgrade boards were boming.. Al kind of suppliers made them like, Boca, AST, and even Intel and some Taiwanese firms. Most time those board were placed in one of the ISA-slots and a connector replaced the 8088-processor and off you go. Most of the times you ended with a (slow)running 386 system that wasn't very stable. In my humble opinion the worth is what you want to give for it but no more the say $30 to $50,- I've some of those boxed never dared to put one in one of my Vectra's ..;-) -Rik > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Namens Brian Lanning > Verzonden: maandag 2 november 2009 22:52 > Aan: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Onderwerp: 386 upgrade boards for IBM 5160s > > I have a chance to buy an IBM 5160 (pc-xt) with I believe an > original CGA > (iirc) monitor. The interesting thing is that he seller > claims it has a > 386-16 upgrade board. What do we know about these? How much > would that upgrade board be worth? I'm trying to figure out > if his price is fair. > > brian > From thomas.gardner at sbcglobal.net Mon Nov 2 16:48:16 2009 From: thomas.gardner at sbcglobal.net (Tom Gardner) Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2009 14:48:16 -0800 Subject: Early WD Controller and/or chip specs Message-ID: <801C7AABE1BF492E9A27F18537FCE150@tegp4> Any one have copies of the WD controller specifications for the PC/AT?? It would be a WD1003 model probably the ?WAH version but any version would be appreciated. The following is a list of some known versions WD1002A-WX1: Half-slot PC XT, PC AT compatible Winchester controller (MFM). WD1002-27X: RLL 2,7 half-slot PC XT, PC AT compatible Winchester controller. WD1002A-27X: Half-slot PC XT compatible Winchester controller. RLL, SMT, no jumper selection required. WD1003-WAH: Winchester controller with PC AT compatible interface. RLL 2,7 version available (-RAH). WD1003S-WAH: Surface mount technology version of WD1003-WAH. RLL 2,7 version available (-RAH). WD1003-WA2: Winchester and floppy controller board with PC AT interface. RLL 2,7 version available (-RA2). WD1003A-WA2: PC XT form factor version of WD1003-WA2. RLL 2,7 version available (-RA2). The corresponding WD AT interface chips are probably the WD11C00C-22 and the WD12C00A-22 -? copies of their specs would also be appreciated.? I happen to have the WD11C00C-17 spec, which is the XT version. Tom From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Mon Nov 2 17:00:28 2009 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Mon, 02 Nov 2009 23:00:28 +0000 Subject: A few classic computer photos In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4AEF648C.5000107@philpem.me.uk> Tony Duell wrote: > Hmmm. Obviosuy I don't understand the workings of flickr... > > Try searching for 'hp9820' (no quotes). That should find some of my > pictures, adn I think you can then look for others by that user name. Ah ha! Looks like half the reason it isn't working is because you haven't got a URL tag set (I can't remember the Flickr term for it, but "URL tag" seems sane). Basically it's the bit after "/photos" or "/people" in the URL -- you can set it once (and only once) or leave it unset, and if you set it, it must be unique. You can set it via: You => Your Account => Your Flickr web addresses There should be a button / link around there to set the URL tag. If you set it to (say) "tony_duell", then you'd gain the addresses (which links to your profile) and (which links to your photostream) Anyway, seeing as we're all linking to our photostreams... :) There isn't much classiccmp-related stuff there (if any), but there are a few "stock photos" -- i.e. "stuff I have in drawers and boxes that needs a photo for the parts catalogue". I tend stray more towards nature and airshow photography to be honest -- I've got a couple of shots on Flickr from a photography club trip to Chester Zoo earlier this year, and a few photos from the recent RAF Waddington airshow that are sitting on slides waiting to be scanned. I'd be more than happy to upload a few if anyone wants to see them, but my Flickr photostream hasn't had a great deal of attention, hence it takes a pretty low priority... -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Mon Nov 2 17:04:19 2009 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Mon, 02 Nov 2009 23:04:19 +0000 Subject: A few classic computer photos In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4AEF6573.30305@philpem.me.uk> Tony Duell wrote: > They can follow the > procedures in the servicce manual, but that's about all. Note I said 'by > no means all' -- I've met some repairers who really understand the > devices they work on. Sounds like the guy we had out to deal with a startup error on our digital printer (Fuji Frontier 570). Basically, the machine is a combination of a modified laser printer and a normal 'wet' minilab print processor -- RGB lasers "print" on the paper, then it's developed as normal (develop, bleachfix, then a couple of wash tanks). We've been having a few problems with it -- missing lines on the back-print, and (more seriously) the machine not warming the tanks up on a morning. That last one is pretty terminal -- it takes two hours to bring the tanks up to ~45C (working temperature) from room temperature (!) Anyway, the guy arrives and the first thing he asks: "Have you got a copy of the service manual?" As I see it, he had a laptop with him, and had no valid excuse for not having a PDF of the S/M with him... So he digs through our heavily annotated "operator-level service manual" (which for >80% of the error messages lists "contact your technical representative" as the only solution), umms and aahs a little, then asks to borrow a screwdriver.... After about 45 minutes he's finally gained access to the machine, after stripping one of the screws and losing another, and re-seats the loose connector that's causing the error. The printer is duly powered up, and it doesn't flag an error with the wiring. I then pose a question. "At the end of last week, we did the 6-monthly maintenance and scrubbed the wash tanks out. It took three times the amount of stabiliser before the level sensor picked up that there was actually something in the wash tanks. Is that normal?" I pointed out the bit in the maintenance manual regarding the wash tank level sensors -- "If the concentration level is insufficient, then the tank level sensors will not detect the wash fluid". His response: "Huh. I didn't know the level sensors depended on the concentration level." I'm not complaining (because the machine is working to spec now, after three engineer visits) but I seriously wondered if we'd been sent the trainee, sans his mentor. I have no problem with his lack of experience (everyone has to start somewhere) but not bringing even a basic toolkit is pretty silly IMO. Even my rather hefty CK ratchet screwdriver is small enough to put in even a small briefcase or backpack... > Anyway, I then feel that if they can do it, so can I. Here, here! > In general older cameras are easier to work on then new ones (electronic > control is right pain to repair!), and the better cameras are also much > easier to work on. I'd much rather strip a Leica than a Kodak -- parts > are better made, they fit easily, and so on. Too true. There are a lot of Olympus OM4s that are starting to suffer from ciruitry failure (read: metering and shutter times go badly out of spec, or the camera just up and dies) and you just can't get new parts for them any more. There's something to be said for simple, all-mechanical designs. > The only Minoltas I've seriously been inside are 16mm sub-miniature ones. > And they seem pretty well put together. From what I've been told, the quality took a nosedive in the mid-90s/'00s span... same as most things, really. -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From pete at dunnington.plus.com Mon Nov 2 17:24:52 2009 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Mon, 02 Nov 2009 23:24:52 +0000 Subject: A few classic computer photos In-Reply-To: <4AEF648C.5000107@philpem.me.uk> References: <4AEF648C.5000107@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4AEF6A44.9090002@dunnington.plus.com> On 02/11/2009 23:00, Philip Pemberton wrote: > Anyway, seeing as we're all linking to our photostreams... > :) There isn't much > classiccmp-related stuff there (if any), but there are a few "stock > photos" -- i.e. "stuff I have in drawers and boxes that needs a photo > for the parts catalogue". What I have on Flickr is mostly pictures other people wanted to look at for various reasons (like my niece's graduation ball) but half a dozen have been requested for publications, including two classiccmp-related photos. Of course there are a whole lot more like them that I should upload in my copious spare time... http://www.flickr.com/photos/pnt103 -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From curt at atarimuseum.com Mon Nov 2 17:41:48 2009 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Mon, 02 Nov 2009 18:41:48 -0500 Subject: 386 upgrade boards for IBM 5160s In-Reply-To: <6dbe3c380911021352s22aa293cg45d2b357806de148@mail.gmail.com> References: <6dbe3c380911021352s22aa293cg45d2b357806de148@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4AEF6E3C.4010904@atarimuseum.com> 386 upgrade??? Hmmmmm, I don't remember those - know there was the Intel AboveBoard 286 upgrades for the XT's... I remember doing a lot of those. Curt Brian Lanning wrote: > I have a chance to buy an IBM 5160 (pc-xt) with I believe an original CGA > (iirc) monitor. The interesting thing is that he seller claims it has a > 386-16 upgrade board. What do we know about these? How much would that > upgrade board be worth? I'm trying to figure out if his price is fair. > > brian > > From cclist at sydex.com Mon Nov 2 18:18:22 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 02 Nov 2009 16:18:22 -0800 Subject: Early WD Controller and/or chip specs In-Reply-To: <801C7AABE1BF492E9A27F18537FCE150@tegp4> References: <801C7AABE1BF492E9A27F18537FCE150@tegp4> Message-ID: <4AEF064E.17548.1A2E6A5@cclist.sydex.com> On 2 Nov 2009 at 14:48, Tom Gardner wrote: > Any one have copies of the WD controller specifications for the > PC/AT?? It would be a WD1003 model probably the -WAH version but any > version would be appreciated. The following is a list of some known > versions Tom, I'm not certain what you're looking for, but I've got the 25-30 page booklets for both the WD1003V-SR1/SR2 and the WD1003V-SM1/SM2, if that's what you're looking for. The chip lineup is: WD42C22 WD1017 WD10C22 WD37C65 (for the floppy versions) Also have the databooks for the WD1007 ESDI and a few other controllers. I have product description sheets for more. --Chuck From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Mon Nov 2 19:49:08 2009 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Mon, 02 Nov 2009 18:49:08 -0700 Subject: some computing nostalgia Message-ID: <4AEF8C15.358BFA60@cs.ubc.ca> If you like your computing nostalgia with a little sardonic humour: http://www.lileks.com/institute/compupromo/index.html (If you are of the right age and disposition you can waste a good portion of your life on the rest of the site: http://www.lileks.com/institute/ ) From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Nov 2 18:49:40 2009 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2009 17:49:40 -0700 Subject: A few classic computer photos In-Reply-To: <4AEF648C.5000107@philpem.me.uk> References: <4AEF648C.5000107@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: At 11:00 PM +0000 11/2/09, Philip Pemberton wrote: >Looks like half the reason it isn't working is because you haven't >got a URL tag set (I can't remember the Flickr term for it, but "URL >tag" seems sane). Guilty as charged as well. :-) I've been debating what to put there for nearly a year. Here is my photostream. http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ >photography to be honest -- I've got a couple of shots on Flickr >from a photography club trip to Chester Zoo earlier this year, and a >few photos from the recent RAF Waddington airshow that are sitting >on slides waiting to be scanned. I'd be more than happy to upload a >few if anyone wants to see them, but my Flickr photostream hasn't >had a great deal of attention, hence it takes a pretty low >priority... I like airshows. :-) Love the paint job on the F58A, and the Cheetah. You've all made me realize that I have little or no Classic Computer related shots up on my page. I sense a project. :-) Well that and the fact I had a few shots I needed to move over from my old .Mac account, which I just did. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From hachti at hachti.de Mon Nov 2 21:12:52 2009 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Tue, 03 Nov 2009 04:12:52 +0100 Subject: Honeywell Level-6 Message-ID: <4AEF9FB4.7070803@hachti.de> Hi, are here people with intimate knowledge of Honeywell Level-6 (Series 60) computers? Or documentation? I got two Level-6/06 machines. Those seem to be somewhat different from the rest of the line as they should be downwards compatible to the X16 machines. But I have no single manual for them. All I have are some Level-6 manuals talking about other machines. In one of them, the 6/06 is mentioned as special and "Series 700" (WHAT is that?!?) compatible. And that it is explicitly not subject of the manual and that it as its own manual that I do not have. I also don't have any schematics. Best wishes, Philipp :-) -- http://www.hachti.de From trixter at oldskool.org Mon Nov 2 21:12:44 2009 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Mon, 02 Nov 2009 21:12:44 -0600 Subject: 386 upgrade boards for IBM 5160s In-Reply-To: <6dbe3c380911021352s22aa293cg45d2b357806de148@mail.gmail.com> References: <6dbe3c380911021352s22aa293cg45d2b357806de148@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4AEF9FAC.6010107@oldskool.org> Brian Lanning wrote: > I have a chance to buy an IBM 5160 (pc-xt) with I believe an original CGA > (iirc) monitor. The interesting thing is that he seller claims it has a > 386-16 upgrade board. What do we know about these? How much would that > upgrade board be worth? I'm trying to figure out if his price is fair. They're fairly uncommon nowadays, so any normal price (ie. in the $100-$150 range for both 5160+386 board in nice cosmetic and working condition) is expected. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From rollerton at gmail.com Mon Nov 2 21:21:20 2009 From: rollerton at gmail.com (Robert Ollerton) Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2009 20:21:20 -0700 Subject: Honeywell Level-6 In-Reply-To: <4AEF9FB4.7070803@hachti.de> References: <4AEF9FB4.7070803@hachti.de> Message-ID: <2789adda0911021921k2e001778m5a3c4a7e0e331232@mail.gmail.com> I worked on a 6/36 back in uh... 1977-78 doing 3780 & HASP, and I have a few manuals tucked away, have to look this weekend. bob On Mon, Nov 2, 2009 at 8:12 PM, Philipp Hachtmann wrote: > Hi, > > are here people with intimate knowledge of Honeywell Level-6 (Series 60) > computers? Or documentation? > I got two Level-6/06 machines. Those seem to be somewhat different from the > rest of the line as they should be downwards compatible to the X16 machines. > But I have no single manual for them. All I have are some Level-6 manuals > talking about other machines. In one of them, the 6/06 is mentioned as > special and "Series 700" (WHAT is that?!?) compatible. And that it is > explicitly not subject of the manual and that it as its own manual that I do > not have. I also don't have any schematics. > > Best wishes, > > Philipp :-) > > > -- > http://www.hachti.de > From rescue at hawkmountain.net Mon Nov 2 22:20:39 2009 From: rescue at hawkmountain.net (Curtis H. Wilbar Jr.) Date: Mon, 02 Nov 2009 23:20:39 -0500 Subject: Early WD Controller and/or chip specs In-Reply-To: <801C7AABE1BF492E9A27F18537FCE150@tegp4> References: <801C7AABE1BF492E9A27F18537FCE150@tegp4> Message-ID: <4AEFAF97.2090207@hawkmountain.net> There was the WD1007-VMM2 (If I recall the # correctly). I believe it was PC XT in size, 16 bit ISA 1:1 interleave MFM controller. I'm not able to verify this info with a quick google search however... It has been about 18 years since I used that controller (I do still have it somewhere however :-) ). -- Curt Tom Gardner wrote: > Any one have copies of the WD controller specifications for the PC/AT? It > would be a WD1003 model probably the ?WAH version but any version would be > appreciated. The following is a list of some known versions > > WD1002A-WX1: Half-slot PC XT, PC AT compatible Winchester controller (MFM). > > WD1002-27X: RLL 2,7 half-slot PC XT, PC AT compatible Winchester controller. > > WD1002A-27X: Half-slot PC XT compatible Winchester controller. RLL, SMT, no > jumper selection required. > > WD1003-WAH: Winchester controller with PC AT compatible interface. > RLL 2,7 version available (-RAH). > > WD1003S-WAH: Surface mount technology version of WD1003-WAH. > RLL 2,7 version available (-RAH). > > WD1003-WA2: Winchester and floppy controller board with PC AT interface. > RLL 2,7 version available (-RA2). > > WD1003A-WA2: PC XT form factor version of WD1003-WA2. > RLL 2,7 version available (-RA2). > > The corresponding WD AT interface chips are probably the WD11C00C-22 and the > WD12C00A-22 - copies of their specs would also be appreciated. I happen to > have the WD11C00C-17 spec, which is the XT version. > > Tom > > From cclist at sydex.com Mon Nov 2 22:30:42 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 02 Nov 2009 20:30:42 -0800 Subject: Early WD Controller and/or chip specs In-Reply-To: <4AEFAF97.2090207@hawkmountain.net> References: <801C7AABE1BF492E9A27F18537FCE150@tegp4>, <4AEFAF97.2090207@hawkmountain.net> Message-ID: <4AEF4172.2417.289ECEB@cclist.sydex.com> On 2 Nov 2009 at 23:20, Curtis H. Wilbar Jr. wrote: > There was the WD1007-VMM2 (If I recall the # correctly). I believe it > was PC XT in size, 16 bit ISA 1:1 interleave MFM controller. Wasn't the WD1007 an ESDI controller? The WD1006 series were MFM and RLL controllers. I still have a couple of the WD1006V-SR2 jobs. --Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Nov 2 22:33:52 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2009 23:33:52 -0500 Subject: Early WD Controller and/or chip specs In-Reply-To: <4AEF4172.2417.289ECEB@cclist.sydex.com> References: <801C7AABE1BF492E9A27F18537FCE150@tegp4>, <4AEFAF97.2090207@hawkmountain.net> <4AEF4172.2417.289ECEB@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <403076D6-2071-4B16-B7D3-40F40FADAD68@neurotica.com> On Nov 2, 2009, at 11:30 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> There was the WD1007-VMM2 (If I recall the # correctly). I believe it >> was PC XT in size, 16 bit ISA 1:1 interleave MFM controller. > > Wasn't the WD1007 an ESDI controller? Yes, the 1007 is ESDI. A delightful controller it is. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From rescue at hawkmountain.net Mon Nov 2 22:35:12 2009 From: rescue at hawkmountain.net (Curtis H. Wilbar Jr.) Date: Mon, 02 Nov 2009 23:35:12 -0500 Subject: Early WD Controller and/or chip specs In-Reply-To: <4AEF4172.2417.289ECEB@cclist.sydex.com> References: <801C7AABE1BF492E9A27F18537FCE150@tegp4>, <4AEFAF97.2090207@hawkmountain.net> <4AEF4172.2417.289ECEB@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4AEFB300.7090604@hawkmountain.net> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 2 Nov 2009 at 23:20, Curtis H. Wilbar Jr. wrote: > > >> There was the WD1007-VMM2 (If I recall the # correctly). I believe it >> was PC XT in size, 16 bit ISA 1:1 interleave MFM controller. >> > > Wasn't the WD1007 an ESDI controller? > > The WD1006 series were MFM and RLL controllers. I still have a > couple of the WD1006V-SR2 jobs. > > --Chuck > > A yes... WD1006-VMM2... not 1007 Like I said... it has been 18+/- years :-) -- Curt From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Nov 2 22:36:37 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2009 20:36:37 -0800 (PST) Subject: 386 upgrade boards for IBM 5160s In-Reply-To: <4AEF9FAC.6010107@oldskool.org> References: <6dbe3c380911021352s22aa293cg45d2b357806de148@mail.gmail.com> <4AEF9FAC.6010107@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <20091102203241.M39950@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 2 Nov 2009, Jim Leonard wrote: > They're fairly uncommon nowadays, so any normal price (ie. in the > $100-$150 range for both 5160+386 board in nice cosmetic and working > condition) is expected. It would seem that there would be a substantial gap in te usability/pricing between major name brand ones, and those made by unknown long defunct companies, particularly if drivers are needed, such as "available driver is for DOS 3.30 or below", "Win9X only", etc. From trixter at oldskool.org Mon Nov 2 22:44:13 2009 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Mon, 02 Nov 2009 22:44:13 -0600 Subject: 386 upgrade boards for IBM 5160s In-Reply-To: <20091102203241.M39950@shell.lmi.net> References: <6dbe3c380911021352s22aa293cg45d2b357806de148@mail.gmail.com> <4AEF9FAC.6010107@oldskool.org> <20091102203241.M39950@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4AEFB51D.6050305@oldskool.org> Fred Cisin wrote: > On Mon, 2 Nov 2009, Jim Leonard wrote: >> They're fairly uncommon nowadays, so any normal price (ie. in the >> $100-$150 range for both 5160+386 board in nice cosmetic and working >> condition) is expected. > > It would seem that there would be a substantial gap in te > usability/pricing between major name brand ones, and those made by unknown > long defunct companies, particularly if drivers are needed, such > as "available driver is for DOS 3.30 or below", "Win9X only", etc. I think it's unreasonable to expect a 386-upgrade-board-in-an-8-bit-slot to function in 386 protected mode or run Win 9x or similar. I don't even think most of them could. I always viewed them as ways to run real-mode 32-bit code, or 16-bit code at a (then major) speedup. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From geoffr at zipcon.net Mon Nov 2 22:07:04 2009 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoffrey Reed) Date: Mon, 02 Nov 2009 21:07:04 -0700 Subject: spokan craigslist vintage computers In-Reply-To: <110220091420.6794.4AEEEAC80001241400001A8A22216125569B0A02D29B9B0EBF9D0A050E039A089C@att.net> Message-ID: Looking at some of the gunge on some of the items in the pictures, I'd be surprised if any of the hardware was anywhere near functional, looks like it would be a lot of work. On 11/2/09 7:20 AM, "shumaker at att.net" wrote: > 1447641794 From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Nov 2 23:07:18 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2009 21:07:18 -0800 (PST) Subject: Early WD Controller and/or chip specs In-Reply-To: <4AEFAF97.2090207@hawkmountain.net> References: <801C7AABE1BF492E9A27F18537FCE150@tegp4> <4AEFAF97.2090207@hawkmountain.net> Message-ID: <20091102210549.I39950@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 2 Nov 2009, Curtis H. Wilbar Jr. wrote: > There was the WD1007-VMM2 (If I recall the # correctly). I believe > it was PC XT in size, 16 bit ISA 1:1 interleave MFM controller. WHOA!!! The 1007 was/is? ESDI. I've got a machine in the back room with a 120? M 3.5" ESDI drive From geoffr at zipcon.net Mon Nov 2 22:12:34 2009 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoffrey Reed) Date: Mon, 02 Nov 2009 21:12:34 -0700 Subject: 386 upgrade boards for IBM 5160s In-Reply-To: <4AEF6E3C.4010904@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: Most of the XT '386 upgrade boards used 386sx's. I remember putting a lot of those in peoples computers when they were the hot item... On 11/2/09 4:41 PM, "Curt @ Atari Museum" wrote: > 386 upgrade??? Hmmmmm, I don't remember those - know there was the > Intel AboveBoard 286 upgrades for the XT's... I remember doing a lot of > those. > > > > Curt > > > > Brian Lanning wrote: >> I have a chance to buy an IBM 5160 (pc-xt) with I believe an original CGA >> (iirc) monitor. The interesting thing is that he seller claims it has a >> 386-16 upgrade board. What do we know about these? How much would that >> upgrade board be worth? I'm trying to figure out if his price is fair. >> >> brian >> >> > From thomas.gardner at sbcglobal.net Tue Nov 3 00:21:46 2009 From: thomas.gardner at sbcglobal.net (Tom Gardner) Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2009 22:21:46 -0800 Subject: Early WD Controller and/or chip specs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <207EA05B480C41CE854655557F765BF4@tegp4> On Mon, 02 Nov 2009 at 16:18:22 Chuck Guzis wrote: > From: "Chuck Guzis" > Subject: Re: Early WD Controller and/or chip specs > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Message-ID: <4AEF064E.17548.1A2E6A5 at cclist.sydex.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > On 2 Nov 2009 at 14:48, Tom Gardner wrote: > > > Any one have copies of the WD controller specifications for the > > PC/AT?? It would be a WD1003 model probably the -WAH version but any > > version would be appreciated. The following is a list of some known > > versions > > Tom, I'm not certain what you're looking for, but I've got the 25-30 > page booklets for both the WD1003V-SR1/SR2 and the WD1003V-SM1/SM2, > if that's what you're looking for. The chip lineup is: > > WD42C22 > WD1017 > WD10C22 > WD37C65 (for the floppy versions) > > Also have the databooks for the WD1007 ESDI and a few other > controllers. I have product description sheets for more. > > --Chuck Hi Chuck: I would very much like to get copies of both the SR and SM booklets. If u are willing, can we work out details off line? My email address: t.gardner-AT-computer.org FWIW, the WD1003V is the 1986 version of this line. I'm not sure exactly which model shipped in the first PC/AT other than I am pretty sure it was of the WD1003 family. Tom From rodsmallwood at btconnect.com Tue Nov 3 00:22:11 2009 From: rodsmallwood at btconnect.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2009 06:22:11 -0000 Subject: Talking to a VAX4000/300 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <00858B610E874DC1B13526A314E01387@EDIConsultingLtd.local> The ports can be RS-423 or RS-232. Use a real DEC terminal. Try both by changing the set up in your terminal. Use the correct DEC MMJ cable between the VAX and the terminal. Connect to the MMJ sockets at both ends. Avoid 25way connectors. I have a VAX 4000/300 working just fine. (VMS 7.3) Regards Rod Smallwood -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of JP Hindin Sent: 02 November 2009 15:39 To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Talking to a VAX4000/300 Greetings all; I picked up a VAX4000 last week and have been trying to get talking with it. I found a general VAX4000 series guide which says the terminal settings should be 8N1 and I've got the speed right between the dial on the front of the VAX module and the VT240 I'm using. I get partial data, with ?s scattered all over the place. Frequently it loses carriage returns and things get stuck scrolling off the side of the screen. What am I missing here? Is it not 8N1? I've tried flipping it around to 7N1, 7E1, etc, but usually that just results in absolute gibberish, the 8N1 provides the best signal-to-noise ratio. I'd appreciate any thoughts given. Elsewise, I'm pretty pumped. I have another 4000/300, but it has a bad PSU. I figured I'd put the two together to get the nicest working machine, store the spare PCBs and dump the chassis (anyone want an empty 4000/300?). The unit is complaining about some memory errors (came with four memory boards), but with all the crap coming up on the screen, I'm not entirely positive what it's complaining about since I can only read a partial output... Thanks again; - JP From cclist at sydex.com Tue Nov 3 00:51:02 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 02 Nov 2009 22:51:02 -0800 Subject: Early WD Controller and/or chip specs In-Reply-To: <207EA05B480C41CE854655557F765BF4@tegp4> References: , <207EA05B480C41CE854655557F765BF4@tegp4> Message-ID: <4AEF6256.201.30A670E@cclist.sydex.com> On 2 Nov 2009 at 22:21, Tom Gardner wrote: > I would very much like to get copies of both the SR and SM booklets. > If u are willing, can we work out details off line? Sure, no problem--I can scan them when I get a bit of time. Have you looked at the IBM PC AT techref for details on the original? I have that also. --Chuck From snhirsch at gmail.com Mon Nov 2 17:03:44 2009 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2009 18:03:44 -0500 (EST) Subject: Panasonic JA751 8" drive question In-Reply-To: <4AEEA459.11452.2442C6@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4AED609B.9030209@jwsss.com>, <4AEEA459.11452.2442C6@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 2 Nov 2009, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 1 Nov 2009 at 8:59, Steven Hirsch wrote: > >>> Definitely a piece of information for the archives. First time > I've >> seen that particular PC-ish Molex connector used for anything other >> than +5-GND-+12. > > This drive seems to have been used a lot on GE medical equipment (CT > Scan, YAG laser, etc.). > > I daresay that you'll find a jumper on board that bypasses the > regulator to allow you to use +12, +5 as your supply. It makes > sense in that light to use the standard 5.25" style 4-pin Molex. Unfortunately, no. The solenoids need +24V. Would love to find the technical information (jumpering, etc.) for this drive. Steve -- From billdb at mac.com Mon Nov 2 17:08:24 2009 From: billdb at mac.com (Bill Becker) Date: Mon, 02 Nov 2009 18:08:24 -0500 Subject: Apple IIgs computers for sale Message-ID: <6BBC5208-DE01-4E9C-BB5D-6FC4DA99E8D2@mac.com> Hi, would you have an Apple A2M6014 Color RGB monitor for sale. Used on the Apple II GS. Have a nice day, Bill B From ddsnyder at zoominternet.net Mon Nov 2 17:20:41 2009 From: ddsnyder at zoominternet.net (Daniel Snyder) Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2009 18:20:41 -0500 Subject: Talking to a VAX4000/300 References: Message-ID: <001701ca5c13$1832b1f0$6501a8c0@HP24150918428> Check the battery on the CPU front panel, looking for corrosion due to an aging battery leaking. I have a MicroVAX 3800 that had similar symptoms. Removing the battery and cleaning the PCB the serial port is attached to corrected serial line corruption. I checked my VAX 4000/705a and found a similar battery arrangement. From the position of the battery, I can see a similar problem in the future.. Guess I'll replace my battery soon.. No flames please, but is the VT240 serial port connected setup for Xon/Xoff? Dan Snyder ----- Original Message ----- From: "JP Hindin" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Monday, November 02, 2009 11:27 AM Subject: RE: Talking to a VAX4000/300 > > > On Mon, 2 Nov 2009, Ian King wrote: > >> What line speed are you running at? I have a 4000/300, too (great >> machine - congratulations!), and I haven't had that problem with either >> a VT420 or a terminal emulator. I'm using 8N1, so I'm sure you're right >> there. But I wonder if the VT240 is just not keeping up with the VAX, >> i.e. insufficient speed and buffer space. I've seen that before, where >> a terminal *can* talk 9600 but can't do it for very long. Hm, I think I >> have a VT240, maybe I should give it a try.... -- Ian > > I have it set to 9600 on both sides. I know I used this term to talk to my > -other- VAX4000 at 9600, so it really shouldn't be an issue. > I'll try dialling down the speeds. > > It occurred to me that I should see if it still works on the -other- VAX, > which I know I used to work with on this term. I thought I'd pop the good > PSU out of the new VAX, stick it in the old, and fire it up with the same > settings (9600 8N1) and see if it's clear or gibberish, just to exclude > some kind of fault in the new VAX. That might be why they dumped it ;) > > Thank you, Ian. If the old VAX gives the same problem, I'll click the > speed back to 1200bps. > > - JP > >> ________________________________________ >> From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On >> Behalf Of JP Hindin [jplist2008 at kiwigeek.com] >> Sent: Monday, November 02, 2009 7:39 AM >> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >> Subject: Talking to a VAX4000/300 >> >> Greetings all; >> >> I picked up a VAX4000 last week and have been trying to get talking with >> it. I found a general VAX4000 series guide which says the terminal >> settings should be 8N1 and I've got the speed right between the dial on >> the front of the VAX module and the VT240 I'm using. >> >> I get partial data, with ?s scattered all over the place. Frequently it >> loses carriage returns and things get stuck scrolling off the side of the >> screen. >> >> What am I missing here? Is it not 8N1? I've tried flipping it around to >> 7N1, 7E1, etc, but usually that just results in absolute gibberish, the >> 8N1 provides the best signal-to-noise ratio. >> >> I'd appreciate any thoughts given. >> >> Elsewise, I'm pretty pumped. I have another 4000/300, but it has a bad >> PSU. I figured I'd put the two together to get the nicest working >> machine, >> store the spare PCBs and dump the chassis (anyone want an empty >> 4000/300?). The unit is complaining about some memory errors (came with >> four memory boards), but with all the crap coming up on the screen, I'm >> not entirely positive what it's complaining about since I can only read a >> partial output... >> >> Thanks again; >> >> - JP >> >> >> > > From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Tue Nov 3 03:57:41 2009 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2009 10:57:41 +0100 (CET) Subject: Early WD Controller and/or chip specs In-Reply-To: <4AEFAF97.2090207@hawkmountain.net> References: <801C7AABE1BF492E9A27F18537FCE150@tegp4> <4AEFAF97.2090207@hawkmountain.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 2 Nov 2009, Curtis H. Wilbar Jr. wrote: > I'm not able to verify this info with a quick google search however... http://www.webtradecenter.de/pcdisk/ --> Controller --> Producer --> ... Christian From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Tue Nov 3 06:52:15 2009 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza) Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2009 10:52:15 -0200 Subject: some computing nostalgia In-Reply-To: <4AEF8C15.358BFA60@cs.ubc.ca> References: <4AEF8C15.358BFA60@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <4a15f9590911030452v4e92c778wa181618706f77e1e@mail.gmail.com> Eh...Brent... http://www.lileks.com/institute/compupromo/7.html "Which breasts?" :oO Greetings from Brazil :) Alexandre Souza, PU1BZZ :D On Mon, Nov 2, 2009 at 11:49 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > If you like your computing nostalgia with a little sardonic humour: > http://www.lileks.com/institute/compupromo/index.html > > (If you are of the right age and disposition you can waste a good portion > of > your life on the rest of the site: > http://www.lileks.com/institute/ > ) > From brianlanning at gmail.com Tue Nov 3 06:59:42 2009 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2009 06:59:42 -0600 Subject: 386 upgrade boards for IBM 5160s In-Reply-To: <4AEFB51D.6050305@oldskool.org> References: <6dbe3c380911021352s22aa293cg45d2b357806de148@mail.gmail.com> <4AEF9FAC.6010107@oldskool.org> <20091102203241.M39950@shell.lmi.net> <4AEFB51D.6050305@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <6dbe3c380911030459m36c7dc05oc389c4640c441c4f@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, Nov 2, 2009 at 10:44 PM, Jim Leonard wrote: > I think it's unreasonable to expect a 386-upgrade-board-in-an-8-bit-slot to > function in 386 protected mode or run Win 9x or similar. I don't even think > most of them could. I always viewed them as ways to run real-mode 32-bit > code, or 16-bit code at a (then major) speedup. > He said he used to run windows 3.1 on it, which makes me think he has more than CGA. He's asking $200 for it which seems too high to me. He likes ebay though, although doesn't like shipping the big stuff. If anyone's interested, let me know and I'll hook you up. brian From shumaker at att.net Tue Nov 3 08:04:20 2009 From: shumaker at att.net (shumaker at att.net) Date: Tue, 03 Nov 2009 14:04:20 +0000 Subject: spokan craigslist vintage computers In-Reply-To: References: <110220091420.6794.4AEEEAC80001241400001A8A22216125569B0A02D29B9B0EBF9D0A050E039A089C@att.net> Message-ID: <110320091404.1409.4AF03864000D81B90000058122218683269B0A02D29B9B0EBF9D0A050E039A089C@att.net> ya probably true... but there always seems to be a jewel or two buried in the middle of piles like this. way too high for the junk that's visible though... -------------- Original message ---------------------- From: Geoffrey Reed > > Looking at some of the gunge on some of the items in the pictures, I'd be > surprised if any of the hardware was anywhere near functional, looks like it > would be a lot of work. > > > On 11/2/09 7:20 AM, "shumaker at att.net" wrote: > > > 1447641794 > > From ajp166 at verizon.net Tue Nov 3 08:15:02 2009 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Tue, 03 Nov 2009 09:15:02 -0500 Subject: 386 upgrade boards for IBM 5160s In-Reply-To: <20091102203241.M39950@shell.lmi.net> References: <6dbe3c380911021352s22aa293cg45d2b357806de148@mail.gmail.com> <4AEF9FAC.6010107@oldskool.org> <20091102203241.M39950@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4AF03AE6.40309@verizon.net> I have a intel Inboard 316 and it was fairly full function with only one problem, RAM. It ran dos and win3.1 fine with 2mb but adding ram was not easily done as I never found the matching stacking ram card for it. With only 2mb win3.1 ran but most higher powered apps ran out of memory. Running win3.11 and Win95 was impossible due to lack of ram, it really needed at least 4mb to be marginal and 8mb to be functional. Mine was installed in a Leading Edge model D. The model D died but the Inboard is still in my collection. Allison Fred Cisin wrote: > On Mon, 2 Nov 2009, Jim Leonard wrote: > >> They're fairly uncommon nowadays, so any normal price (ie. in the >> $100-$150 range for both 5160+386 board in nice cosmetic and working >> condition) is expected. >> > > It would seem that there would be a substantial gap in te > usability/pricing between major name brand ones, and those made by unknown > long defunct companies, particularly if drivers are needed, such > as "available driver is for DOS 3.30 or below", "Win9X only", etc. > > > > > From jplist2008 at kiwigeek.com Tue Nov 3 08:38:37 2009 From: jplist2008 at kiwigeek.com (JP Hindin) Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2009 08:38:37 -0600 (CST) Subject: Talking to a VAX4000/300; Also RAM In-Reply-To: <548D6412-2889-4497-8A22-75AAC88E11E7@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 2 Nov 2009, Dave McGuire wrote: > On Nov 2, 2009, at 11:14 AM, Ian King wrote: > > What line speed are you running at? I have a 4000/300, too (great > > machine - congratulations!), and I haven't had that problem with > > either a VT420 or a terminal emulator. I'm using 8N1, so I'm sure > > you're right there. But I wonder if the VT240 is just not keeping > > up with the VAX, i.e. insufficient speed and buffer space. I've > > seen that before, where a terminal *can* talk 9600 but can't do it > > for very long. Hm, I think I have a VT240, maybe I should give it > > a try.... -- Ian > > VT240s, while wonderful in other ways, are very slow terminals. > It wouldn't surprise me if he were simply getting overruns. Much to my embarrassment I discovered the issue was _not_ the speed, or noisy lines, or corroded batteries or RS232/423 problems. I was a total nitwit and neglected to notice I had it set to 8E1 instead of 8N1. Remarkably with this small change, I can now speak to it clearly at 9600bps. Should I be amazed or not that this 4000/300 has a half-gig of RAM? My first 4000/300 came with a single 32M board, this one comes with 4x 128M boards (one of which is flaky). The documentation I can find says the 4000/300 maxes out at 128M, which... clearly isn't so: http://www.kiwigeek.com/misc/VAX4000_Mem_Count.JPG Where would the sages suggest I begin in tracking down a fault in one of the four boards: http://www.kiwigeek.com/misc/VAX4000_Mem_Errors.JPG My thanks to everyone who made very good, but due to my incompetance, unused suggestions. - JP From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Nov 3 11:26:41 2009 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Tue, 03 Nov 2009 10:26:41 -0700 Subject: some computing nostalgia In-Reply-To: <4AEF8C15.358BFA60@cs.ubc.ca> References: <4AEF8C15.358BFA60@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <4AF067D1.3030903@jetnet.ab.ca> Brent Hilpert wrote: > If you like your computing nostalgia with a little sardonic humour: > http://www.lileks.com/institute/compupromo/index.html > > (If you are of the right age and disposition you can waste a good portion of > your life on the rest of the site: > http://www.lileks.com/institute/ > ) > Nah ... You can't buy any of the Advertised Products. :-) From cclist at sydex.com Tue Nov 3 11:41:07 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 03 Nov 2009 09:41:07 -0800 Subject: Panasonic JA751 8" drive question In-Reply-To: References: , <4AEEA459.11452.2442C6@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4AEFFAB3.2050.3A31E3@cclist.sydex.com> On 2 Nov 2009 at 18:03, Steven Hirsch wrote: > Unfortunately, no. The solenoids need +24V. Solenoids, plural? For head-load and a door-lock? Very strange indeed. Might this drive have been offered in a 5.25" compatible configuration, without either solenoid? I wonder if Matsushita made this particular drive variant solely for GE Medical? --Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Nov 3 11:42:51 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2009 12:42:51 -0500 Subject: Talking to a VAX4000/300; Also RAM In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <400731F1-783B-4F31-8B70-4CB208A90321@neurotica.com> On Nov 3, 2009, at 9:38 AM, JP Hindin wrote: >>> What line speed are you running at? I have a 4000/300, too (great >>> machine - congratulations!), and I haven't had that problem with >>> either a VT420 or a terminal emulator. I'm using 8N1, so I'm sure >>> you're right there. But I wonder if the VT240 is just not keeping >>> up with the VAX, i.e. insufficient speed and buffer space. I've >>> seen that before, where a terminal *can* talk 9600 but can't do it >>> for very long. Hm, I think I have a VT240, maybe I should give it >>> a try.... -- Ian >> >> VT240s, while wonderful in other ways, are very slow terminals. >> It wouldn't surprise me if he were simply getting overruns. > > Much to my embarrassment I discovered the issue was _not_ the > speed, or > noisy lines, or corroded batteries or RS232/423 problems. I was a > total > nitwit and neglected to notice I had it set to 8E1 instead of 8N1. > Remarkably with this small change, I can now speak to it clearly at > 9600bps. > Ahem. ;) > Should I be amazed or not that this 4000/300 has a half-gig of RAM? My > first 4000/300 came with a single 32M board, this one comes with 4x > 128M > boards (one of which is flaky). The documentation I can find says the > 4000/300 maxes out at 128M, which... clearly isn't so: > http://www.kiwigeek.com/misc/VAX4000_Mem_Count.JPG Holy crap!! That's a huge amount of memory on a VAX. HUGE. Score! > Where would the sages suggest I begin in tracking down a fault in > one of > the four boards: > http://www.kiwigeek.com/misc/VAX4000_Mem_Errors.JPG Hmm, ouch. :-( Is the service manual for the '300 CPU around? It should tell you how to decode the message and will probably get you down to the chip level. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Nov 3 12:12:23 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2009 10:12:23 -0800 (PST) Subject: 386 upgrade boards for IBM 5160s In-Reply-To: <6dbe3c380911030459m36c7dc05oc389c4640c441c4f@mail.gmail.com> References: <6dbe3c380911021352s22aa293cg45d2b357806de148@mail.gmail.com> <4AEF9FAC.6010107@oldskool.org> <20091102203241.M39950@shell.lmi.net> <4AEFB51D.6050305@oldskool.org> <6dbe3c380911030459m36c7dc05oc389c4640c441c4f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20091103100432.Q61346@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 3 Nov 2009, Brian Lanning wrote: > He said he used to run windows 3.1 on it, which makes me think he has more > than CGA. Windoze 3.10 can work with CGA (640 x 200); although not very well. Hercules (720 x 348) is a better choice for 3.10. Some trivial experiments seem to hint that MICROS~1 may have been using ATI EGA at 800 x 600 for writing it. BUT, 3.10 wants HIMEM.SYS, and will refuse to install unless there is some "extended" (NOT "expanded") RAM above 1M. OTOH, 3.00 is very happy with CGA on an XT, and can even run with less than 640K. From IanK at vulcan.com Tue Nov 3 12:27:02 2009 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2009 10:27:02 -0800 Subject: Talking to a VAX4000/300; Also RAM In-Reply-To: References: <548D6412-2889-4497-8A22-75AAC88E11E7@neurotica.com> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of JP Hindin > Sent: Tuesday, November 03, 2009 6:39 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Talking to a VAX4000/300; Also RAM > > > > On Mon, 2 Nov 2009, Dave McGuire wrote: > > On Nov 2, 2009, at 11:14 AM, Ian King wrote: > > > What line speed are you running at? I have a 4000/300, too (great > > > machine - congratulations!), and I haven't had that problem with > > > either a VT420 or a terminal emulator. I'm using 8N1, so I'm sure > > > you're right there. But I wonder if the VT240 is just not keeping > > > up with the VAX, i.e. insufficient speed and buffer space. I've > > > seen that before, where a terminal *can* talk 9600 but can't do it > > > for very long. Hm, I think I have a VT240, maybe I should give it > > > a try.... -- Ian > > > > VT240s, while wonderful in other ways, are very slow terminals. > > It wouldn't surprise me if he were simply getting overruns. > > Much to my embarrassment I discovered the issue was _not_ the speed, or > noisy lines, or corroded batteries or RS232/423 problems. I was a total > nitwit and neglected to notice I had it set to 8E1 instead of 8N1. > Remarkably with this small change, I can now speak to it clearly at > 9600bps. > > > Should I be amazed or not that this 4000/300 has a half-gig of RAM? My > first 4000/300 came with a single 32M board, this one comes with 4x > 128M > boards (one of which is flaky). The documentation I can find says the > 4000/300 maxes out at 128M, which... clearly isn't so: > http://www.kiwigeek.com/misc/VAX4000_Mem_Count.JPG > > Where would the sages suggest I begin in tracking down a fault in one > of > the four boards: > http://www.kiwigeek.com/misc/VAX4000_Mem_Errors.JPG > > My thanks to everyone who made very good, but due to my incompetance, > unused suggestions. > Glad to help, even if it wasn't needed. :-) So what boards are those? The 4000/300 Technical Manual calls out two different memory boards, one 32MB, the other 64MB, and there are four memory slots. I'd *love* to beef up my 4000 with more than 128MB. -- Ian From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Nov 3 12:27:58 2009 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 03 Nov 2009 13:27:58 -0500 Subject: 386 upgrade boards for IBM 5160s In-Reply-To: <20091103100432.Q61346@shell.lmi.net> References: <6dbe3c380911021352s22aa293cg45d2b357806de148@mail.gmail.com> <4AEF9FAC.6010107@oldskool.org> <20091102203241.M39950@shell.lmi.net> <4AEFB51D.6050305@oldskool.org> <6dbe3c380911030459m36c7dc05oc389c4640c441c4f@mail.gmail.com> <20091103100432.Q61346@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4AF0762E.1010503@gmail.com> Fred Cisin wrote: > BUT, 3.10 wants HIMEM.SYS, and will refuse to install unless there is some > "extended" (NOT "expanded") RAM above 1M. 3.1 wants HIMEM.SYS, but it most decidedly doesn't require memory above 1MB. It does require memory above 640kB. But 1MB memory works just fine. Peace... Sridhar From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Tue Nov 3 12:33:24 2009 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2009 13:33:24 -0500 (EST) Subject: Talking to a VAX4000/300; Also RAM In-Reply-To: References: <548D6412-2889-4497-8A22-75AAC88E11E7@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 3 Nov 2009, Ian King wrote: > Glad to help, even if it wasn't needed. :-) So what boards are those? > The 4000/300 Technical Manual calls out two different memory boards, one > 32MB, the other 64MB, and there are four memory slots. I'd *love* to > beef up my 4000 with more than 128MB. -- Ian I'd *love* to beef up my 4000/300 with more than its current measly 32MB! Anyone have a spare MS670-CA (64MB)? I assume the OP has MS670-DA (128MB) boards installed... Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From glen.slick at gmail.com Tue Nov 3 12:52:16 2009 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2009 10:52:16 -0800 Subject: Talking to a VAX4000/300; Also RAM In-Reply-To: References: <548D6412-2889-4497-8A22-75AAC88E11E7@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <1e1fc3e90911031052y20ee8ef9v99d61c91a9ef340f@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Nov 3, 2009 at 10:27 AM, Ian King wrote: > > Glad to help, even if it wasn't needed. ?:-) ?So what boards are those? ?The 4000/300 Technical Manual calls out two different memory boards, one 32MB, the other 64MB, and there are four memory slots. ?I'd *love* to beef up my 4000 with more than 128MB. ?-- Ian > I upgraded my 4000-500 to 512MB with (4x) DATARAM 128MB boards. The DRD450/128 is equivalent to a MS690-DA. http://web.archive.org/web/19970521221815/www.dataram.com/datashts/drd450.htm From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Nov 3 12:56:38 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2009 10:56:38 -0800 (PST) Subject: 386 upgrade boards for IBM 5160s In-Reply-To: <4AF0762E.1010503@gmail.com> References: <6dbe3c380911021352s22aa293cg45d2b357806de148@mail.gmail.com> <4AEF9FAC.6010107@oldskool.org> <20091102203241.M39950@shell.lmi.net> <4AEFB51D.6050305@oldskool.org> <6dbe3c380911030459m36c7dc05oc389c4640c441c4f@mail.gmail.com> <20091103100432.Q61346@shell.lmi.net> <4AF0762E.1010503@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20091103104932.V61346@shell.lmi.net> > > BUT, 3.10 wants HIMEM.SYS, and will refuse to install unless there is some > > "extended" (NOT "expanded") RAM above 1M. On Tue, 3 Nov 2009, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > 3.1 wants HIMEM.SYS, but it most decidedly doesn't require memory above > 1MB. It does require memory above 640kB. But 1MB memory works just fine. It is certainly true that you do not need to have MORE THAN 1MB. In order to get Windoze 3.10 with 1MB to work, I had to configure it so that 384K (or even just 64K) was seen as having address above 1M. The botom 640K does not need to be fully populated - one of my 3.10 ATs had 512K starting at address 0h, and another 512K (surely could have used 64K) starting at address 10000h HIMEM.SYS, and consequently Windoze 3.10 require a working A20 line, and at least SOME memory accessed with a 1 in A20. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Nov 3 13:05:41 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2009 14:05:41 -0500 Subject: Speaking of VAX memory... MSV11PK->MSV11PL? Message-ID: Hi, All, Today's threads about maxing out VAX4000s reminds me that I've been meaning to ask if anyone has fully stuffed a 512KB MSV11-PK and turned it into a 1MB MSV11-PL? I have the requisite handbooks and know how to strap the cards and such, but having in the past upgraded DEC memory cards, I remember the "joy" of sucking out hundreds of holes and looking for cold joints when the card didn't work the first time I tried it (eventually, I did get it to work). I just haven't done it with a card that's more than a dumb block of RAM (the MSV11-P series has a CSR for querying parity status, among other things). Abstractly, I expect it's a matter of cleaning the solder out of the pins, installing a lot of 4164s (the card supports 4116s or 4164s), then changing a strap or two for the extra fields. I'm just wondering if anyone has done this and found and surprises. I'd love to just have a pile of 4MB Qbus memory lying around so I didn't have to fuss with things (for those that don't know DEC equipment, 4MB fills the memory space on a 22-bit Qbus (no PMI) machine), but I think I have exactly one card that large and it lives in a MicroVAX I. Thanks for any tips or warnings, -ethan P.S. - someday, I may try the same with an M8417 to turn an MSC8AA (16K) into an MSC8DJ (128K) by removing the 4K DRAMs and fully-populating the card with 4116s. The sheer number of solder joints to get right has held me back on that one. From arcarlini at iee.org Tue Nov 3 13:17:58 2009 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2009 19:17:58 -0000 Subject: Talking to a VAX4000/300; Also RAM In-Reply-To: <400731F1-783B-4F31-8B70-4CB208A90321@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <73B1388216564A4DB0E425A226AB1EBF@ANTONIOPC> cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org wrote: > Hmm, ouch. :-( Is the service manual for the '300 CPU > around? It > should tell you how to decode the message and will probably get you > down to the chip level. Manx has a bunch of stuff, start here: http://vt100.net/manx/details/1,1469 for the KA670 TM. I *think* the max memory depends on the backplane, later revs could cope with more. I *think* the CPU could always cope with 512MB. As for testing, start (obviously) by running with any two boards, and decide in which pair the fault lies. Then you isolate to a single board. Fixing that single board probably requires better diags than the console provides (although it has been a long time and I could be wrong. If you can isolate it to just a RAM chip, then a memory board is probably the simplest of all component level fixes, no? Antonio From mtapley at swri.edu Tue Nov 3 13:34:18 2009 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2009 13:34:18 -0600 Subject: Origins of Internet, old Physics Today article In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: All, Catching up on my old magazine stack yesterday, I came across what looked like a good article in Physics Today (Nov. 1998, Vol. 51 No. 11) entitled "The World Wide Web and High-Energy Physics". It described the steps leading to the evolution of HTTP, HTML, and the adoption of those protocols at CERN and elsewhere. Nice photos of Tim Berners-Lee sitting in front of a NeXTStep screen, and *the* Cube that ran the original server. The article appears to be on-line at: http://www.physicstoday.org/archive.html (click on 1998, select the Nov. issue with the icebreaker on the cover, look in "articles". I have to admit though, my Safari 4.0.3 and Firefox 3.5.1, both on Mac OS 10.4.11, fail to display the article .pdf they think they are serving. Did anyone else note this article, and can comment on its accuracy? Does anyone want/need more info? -- - Mark 210-379-4635 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Large Asteroids headed toward planets inhabited by beings that don't have technology adequate to stop them: Think of it as Evolution in Fast-Forward. From doc at vaxen.net Tue Nov 3 13:44:04 2009 From: doc at vaxen.net (Doc Shipley) Date: Tue, 03 Nov 2009 13:44:04 -0600 Subject: Origins of Internet, old Physics Today article In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4AF08804.8040400@vaxen.net> Mark Tapley wrote: > All, > Catching up on my old magazine stack yesterday, I came across what > looked like a good article in Physics Today (Nov. 1998, Vol. 51 No. 11) > entitled "The World Wide Web and High-Energy Physics". It described the > steps leading to the evolution of HTTP, HTML, and the adoption of those > protocols at CERN and elsewhere. Nice photos of Tim Berners-Lee sitting > in front of a NeXTStep screen, and *the* Cube that ran the original server. > > The article appears to be on-line at: > > http://www.physicstoday.org/archive.html > > (click on 1998, select the Nov. issue with the icebreaker on the > cover, look in "articles". I have to admit though, my Safari 4.0.3 and > Firefox 3.5.1, both on Mac OS 10.4.11, fail to display the article .pdf > they think they are serving. > > Did anyone else note this article, and can comment on its accuracy? > > Does anyone want/need more info? Clicking the PDF download link takes me to a login page. Doc From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Tue Nov 3 14:04:34 2009 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 03 Nov 2009 12:04:34 -0800 Subject: Origins of Internet, old Physics Today article References: Message-ID: <4AF08CD2.CA54FB16@cs.ubc.ca> Mark Tapley wrote: > Catching up on my old magazine stack yesterday, I came across > what looked like a good article in Physics Today (Nov. 1998, Vol. 51 > No. 11) entitled "The World Wide Web and High-Energy Physics". It > described the steps leading to the evolution of HTTP, HTML, and the > adoption of those protocols at CERN and elsewhere. Nice photos of Tim > Berners-Lee sitting in front of a NeXTStep screen, and *the* Cube > that ran the original server. > > The article appears to be on-line at: > > http://www.physicstoday.org/archive.html > > (click on 1998, select the Nov. issue with the icebreaker on > the cover, look in "articles". I have to admit though, my Safari > 4.0.3 and Firefox 3.5.1, both on Mac OS 10.4.11, fail to display the > article .pdf they think they are serving. > > Did anyone else note this article, and can comment on its accuracy? > > Does anyone want/need more info? I would read it if I could get it with any ease: the pdf link shows up but takes one to a sign-in page rather than delivering up the pdf (I hate those sign-up requirements for such things). I had some involvement with the HEP-community/ CERN / networking issues / protocol standards battles / blah blah blah in the mid-to-late-80s timeframe (just before the WWW), so it would be curious to see what the article has to say. A pithy one-sentence synopsis of the issue in the period: CERN and the European community were attempting to stick with and mandate the use of ISO/CCITT standard protocols (OSI) through the 1980s; the internet TCP/IP juggernaut and other developments (such as their own HTTP) eventually overwhelmed the politics. From RichA at vulcan.com Tue Nov 3 14:05:28 2009 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2009 12:05:28 -0800 Subject: Origins of Internet, old Physics Today article In-Reply-To: <4AF08804.8040400@vaxen.net> References: <4AF08804.8040400@vaxen.net> Message-ID: > From: Doc Shipley > Sent: Tuesday, November 03, 2009 11:44 AM > Mark Tapley wrote: >> Catching up on my old magazine stack yesterday, I came across what >> looked like a good article in Physics Today (Nov. 1998, Vol. 51 No. 11) >> entitled "The World Wide Web and High-Energy Physics". It described the >> steps leading to the evolution of HTTP, HTML, and the adoption of those >> protocols at CERN and elsewhere. Nice photos of Tim Berners-Lee sitting >> in front of a NeXTStep screen, and *the* Cube that ran the original server. So not the origins of the Internet, most likely, but rather of the World Wide Waste^H^H^H^Heb? >> The article appears to be on-line at: >> http://www.physicstoday.org/archive.html > Clicking the PDF download link takes me to a login page. ...or a buy-it-online link that offers to provide it to you for only US$23.00. I took a look at the author's home page (Bebo White, retired from the Stanford Linear Accelerator Center, whom I used to know!), but the article is not available from there. Bummer. Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Server Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at livingcomputermuseum.org http://www.pdpplanet.org/ http://www.livingcomputermuseum.org/ From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Tue Nov 3 14:27:01 2009 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 03 Nov 2009 12:27:01 -0800 Subject: Origins of Internet, old Physics Today article References: <4AF08804.8040400@vaxen.net> Message-ID: <4AF09214.3347E336@cs.ubc.ca> Rich Alderson wrote: > So not the origins of the Internet, most likely, but rather of the World > Wide Waste^H^H^H^Heb? Just a couple of comments there: - The HEP community was very much involved with pushing networking developments way before the WWW, due to the communications needs of a relatively small community working at a small number of installations (accelerators), but spread at great distance all around the globe. - It may not be the origins of the Internet at the lower levels as we techies like to think of it, but I would say the WWW was very much a part of 'making' the Internet (or 'Net, if you prefer), in it's prevalence and as a widespread social phenomenon. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Nov 3 14:04:28 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2009 20:04:28 +0000 (GMT) Subject: A few classic computer photos In-Reply-To: <20091102131908.E24246@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Nov 2, 9 01:25:05 pm Message-ID: > > On Mon, 2 Nov 2009, Tony Duell wrote: > > The only Minoltas I've seriously been inside are 16mm sub-miniature ones. > Need one? Or Minox? or Tessina? I haev quite a collection of sub-miniature Minoltas already :-). And I have one Minox, which is a beautiful piece of engineering. Alas a Tessina is way out of my price range... > > And they seem pretty well put together. > > Some of the EARLIEST Minoltas were imitation Leicas. Hmmm. .I know they had E39 lens mounts and were 35mm rangefinder cameras with focal plane shutters, but I didn't think there were Leica copies (not in the sense that the early FEDs and Zorkis were Leica copies). > I stumbled on one yesterday when I was looking through M39 (Leica screw > mount) and C-mount lenses to use on my soon to arrive Micro Four Thirds. > I am actively looking for 1/2" and 1" QUALITY C-mount lenses (the Goerz > and Leitz C-mount lenses seem to be out of my price reach) I've always found Kern-Paillard lenses to be very good. But not cheap. Some eyars ago I bought a portable Sony reel-to-reel video recorder. It came with camera mains adapter, and 2 Kern-Paillard lenses (the camera has a C=mount). I am sure the lenses alone are worth a lot more than I paid for the whole thing. [Useless tip... I repaired the head beam in that unit using the heads taken from a Betamx head disk. And there's a nasty design fault in that the nut holding the head beam mounting flange to the motor spindle is a normal right-hand thread. If it works loose (and the direction of rotation is tending to loosen it), the heads bang into the fixed upper and lower drums and get wrecked. Don't ask how I found that out...) > > > Any needs for a Leica lens mount Minolta? (Should I get it out and check > its condition?) I don;t have one... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Nov 3 14:17:06 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2009 20:17:06 +0000 (GMT) Subject: A few classic computer photos In-Reply-To: <4AEF6573.30305@philpem.me.uk> from "Philip Pemberton" at Nov 2, 9 11:04:19 pm Message-ID: > > Tony Duell wrote: > > They can follow the > > procedures in the servicce manual, but that's about all. Note I said 'by > > no means all' -- I've met some repairers who really understand the > > devices they work on. > > Sounds like the guy we had out to deal with a startup error on our Well, it's partly based on the number of timrs I've received a panicing 'phone call from somebody who lives enarby. They've called in an official repairrer who is makign a right mess of things, so I get to go roudn there -- while the repairer is still present ! -- to sort it out. Teaching a Britixh Gas boiler reparier how the flame failure device was supposed to work and how to test it is something i will never forget... And of course the number of field servoids I've observed... And the number of garage mechanics (from main dealers) who do things that are expressly forbidden by the workshop manual (and forbidden for a good reason). > digital printer (Fuji Frontier 570). Basically, the machine is a > combination of a modified laser printer and a normal 'wet' minilab print > processor -- RGB lasers "print" on the paper, then it's developed as > normal (develop, bleachfix, then a couple of wash tanks). We've been > having a few problems with it -- missing lines on the back-print, and > (more seriously) the machine not warming the tanks up on a morning. That > last one is pretty terminal -- it takes two hours to bring the tanks up > to ~45C (working temperature) from room temperature (!) > > Anyway, the guy arrives and the first thing he asks: > "Have you got a copy of the service manual?" Eek!!. I suspect my reply would be something along the lines of 'Your company refused to sell me a proper service manaul. If you can get me one, then I'll let you borrrow when you come to repair my printer' > As I see it, he had a laptop with him, and had no valid excuse for not > having a PDF of the S/M with him... > So he digs through our heavily annotated "operator-level service manual" > (which for >80% of the error messages lists "contact your technical > representative" as the only solution), umms and aahs a little, then asks > to borrow a screwdriver.... What is the point of a service engineer who doesn't carry even basic tools? > > After about 45 minutes he's finally gained access to the machine, after > stripping one of the screws and losing another, and re-seats the loose > connector that's causing the error. The printer is duly powered up, and > it doesn't flag an error with the wiring. > > I then pose a question. > > "At the end of last week, we did the 6-monthly maintenance and scrubbed > the wash tanks out. It took three times the amount of stabiliser before > the level sensor picked up that there was actually something in the wash > tanks. Is that normal?" > > I pointed out the bit in the maintenance manual regarding the wash tank > level sensors -- "If the concentration level is insufficient, then the > tank level sensors will not detect the wash fluid". > > His response: > "Huh. I didn't know the level sensors depended on the concentration level." Ouch! > > I'm not complaining (because the machine is working to spec now, after > three engineer visits) but I seriously wondered if we'd been sent the > trainee, sans his mentor. I have no problem with his lack of experience > (everyone has to start somewhere) but not bringing even a basic toolkit > is pretty silly IMO. Even my rather hefty CK ratchet screwdriver is > small enough to put in even a small briefcase or backpack... My _complete_ tool kit is not portable, mainly because a lathe needs to be set up in the position it is going to be used (seriously the cast iron bed will twist slightly, and you have to level it). On the other hand most of my tookit will fit in a sensibly-sized back ('most' includes things like a Weller TCP soldering iron, FLuck multiumeter, LogicDart, screwdrivers, nutdrivers, hex keys, torx keys, and so on. I'll include other more speicalised tools (camera lense ring wrench, 'Jaxa' watch case opening tool, etc) if I think I could need them > > > > Anyway, I then feel that if they can do it, so can I. > > Here, here! > > > > In general older cameras are easier to work on then new ones (electronic > > control is right pain to repair!), and the better cameras are also much > > easier to work on. I'd much rather strip a Leica than a Kodak -- parts > > are better made, they fit easily, and so on. > > Too true. There are a lot of Olympus OM4s that are starting to suffer > from ciruitry failure (read: metering and shutter times go badly out of I seem to remeebr you should stick to odd-numbered OM's as they're mechanical. > spec, or the camera just up and dies) and you just can't get new parts > for them any more. > > There's something to be said for simple, all-mechanical designs. Indeed there is... > > > > The only Minoltas I've seriously been inside are 16mm sub-miniature ones. > > And they seem pretty well put together. > > From what I've been told, the quality took a nosedive in the > mid-90s/'00s span... same as most things, really. Alas... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Nov 3 13:58:06 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2009 19:58:06 +0000 (GMT) Subject: A few classic computer photos In-Reply-To: <4AEF400E.6080804@gmail.com> from "Sridhar Ayengar" at Nov 2, 9 03:24:46 pm Message-ID: > > Tony Duell wrote: > >> Is there anything you won't strip to pieces and/or (at least attempt to)=20 > >> repair? :) > > > > Yes. Pentina, my cat (or more exactly the cat who chooses to live with > > me). I don;t know enough to do so without fatal results. > > I suppose it might be possible to learn enough to perform this sort of > repair successfully. Oh, it most certainly is. After all, we have people called 'vets' who do this. But unlike electronic/mechanical repair, it's difficult to be self-taught in this. If I make a mistake stripping a classic computer, I can put it right. If I make a mistake repairing Pentina the cat, I can't. (Cats, and most other living things seem to have volatile memory for all the firmware, and there's no way to back it up or restore the backup. So if you make a mistake and manage to erase said memory, that's it :-() -tony From keithvz at verizon.net Tue Nov 3 14:53:58 2009 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith M) Date: Tue, 03 Nov 2009 15:53:58 -0500 Subject: Origins of Internet, old Physics Today article In-Reply-To: References: <4AF08804.8040400@vaxen.net> Message-ID: <4AF09866.6090104@verizon.net> Rich Alderson wrote: > ...or a buy-it-online link that offers to provide it to you for only > US$23.00. > > I took a look at the author's home page (Bebo White, retired from the > Stanford Linear Accelerator Center, whom I used to know!), but the article > is not available from there. How about here? http://www.slac.stanford.edu/pubs/slacpubs/7750/slac-pub-7815.pdf This looks to be the same one. Forget the $23. Keith From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Nov 3 15:01:12 2009 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2009 13:01:12 -0800 (PST) Subject: A few classic computer photos In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 3 Nov 2009, Tony Duell wrote: >> Anyway, the guy arrives and the first thing he asks: >> "Have you got a copy of the service manual?" > > Eek!!. I suspect my reply would be something along the lines of 'Your company > refused to sell me a proper service manaul. If you can get me one, then > I'll let you borrrow when you come to repair my printer' The question that comes to mind is, is they guy a Fuji employee, or does he work for a third party support outfit? A certain company, before they got bought buy another company had thier support contracted out to a certain three letter company in the computer field. The original guy this company would send out is competent, even if this isn't his area of expertiese. The second guy was a total waste of space, even worse he had to be escorted in our computer room while he "Troubleshot" the hardware. So I'd waste half a day while he was on the phone with the Vendor. He'd order the replacement part, and I wouldn't even tell him when it came in, I'd just fix it myself. The best was the device we got totally refurbished because of his incompetence. The only thing wrong was a switch, but he replaced *EVERY* major part before figuring that out! :-) Finally the company started sending out thier own people, and they know what they're doing. Zane From rogpugh at mac.com Tue Nov 3 15:14:04 2009 From: rogpugh at mac.com (Roger Pugh) Date: Tue, 03 Nov 2009 21:14:04 +0000 Subject: A few classic computer photos In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > > I haev quite a collection of sub-miniature Minoltas already :-). And I > have one Minox, which is a beautiful piece of engineering. Alas a > Tessina > is way out of my price range... Pentax 110's and Exakta's are my favorites. rog From joachim.thiemann at gmail.com Tue Nov 3 15:32:48 2009 From: joachim.thiemann at gmail.com (Joachim Thiemann) Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2009 16:32:48 -0500 Subject: Looking for LED display of a HP33E or HP34 or similar Message-ID: <4affc5e0911031332q22254854pa4437e9952502565@mail.gmail.com> Hello, due to my playing around with the LED display from a busted HP34C (see my projects page, from my .sig) I got contacted by someone with a HP33E that needed a new LED display - his was faulty, so I agreed to send him my display - in fact I sent him the entire HP34C, given that there might be more bits useful to his restoration efforts. Long story short, due to my naivet?, the calculator got lost in the mail, so it appears. I _never_ lost anything in the mail, it wasn't a get-there-or-else kind of package, so I figured I save a few bucks and send it as regular small parcel - no tracking number. Well, live and learn, as they say. I guess with international shipments, bad things can still happen. So, is there anyone on the list who has a display for that type of HP calculator (I think they got used in several of the 3x series)? It should look like this: http://www.ece.mcgill.ca/~jthiem/project-files/HPLED/HP%20LED%20display%20unit.jpg I'm hoping _someone_ has one hidden away somewhere that wont power up due to failure other than the display... Joe. -- Joachim Thiemann :: http://www.tsp.ece.mcgill.ca/~jthiem From trixter at oldskool.org Tue Nov 3 15:51:12 2009 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Tue, 03 Nov 2009 15:51:12 -0600 Subject: 386 upgrade boards for IBM 5160s In-Reply-To: <20091103100432.Q61346@shell.lmi.net> References: <6dbe3c380911021352s22aa293cg45d2b357806de148@mail.gmail.com> <4AEF9FAC.6010107@oldskool.org> <20091102203241.M39950@shell.lmi.net> <4AEFB51D.6050305@oldskool.org> <6dbe3c380911030459m36c7dc05oc389c4640c441c4f@mail.gmail.com> <20091103100432.Q61346@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4AF0A5D0.3080802@oldskool.org> Fred Cisin wrote: > OTOH, 3.00 is very happy with CGA on an XT, and can even run with less > than 640K. ...with the exception that pretty much the only thing you can run under 3.00 in real mode are the desktop accessories it comes with. Most 3.x applications require at least standard mode + 2M of real RAM. For the most impressive GUI experience on any XT, I highly recommend GeoWorks Ensemble 1.0 or 2.0. Finding it takes some digging but is worth it. More info here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GEOS_%2816-bit_operating_system%29 -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Nov 3 15:49:07 2009 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 03 Nov 2009 16:49:07 -0500 Subject: 386 upgrade boards for IBM 5160s In-Reply-To: <20091103104932.V61346@shell.lmi.net> References: <6dbe3c380911021352s22aa293cg45d2b357806de148@mail.gmail.com> <4AEF9FAC.6010107@oldskool.org> <20091102203241.M39950@shell.lmi.net> <4AEFB51D.6050305@oldskool.org> <6dbe3c380911030459m36c7dc05oc389c4640c441c4f@mail.gmail.com> <20091103100432.Q61346@shell.lmi.net> <4AF0762E.1010503@gmail.com> <20091103104932.V61346@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4AF0A553.1000007@gmail.com> Fred Cisin wrote: >>> BUT, 3.10 wants HIMEM.SYS, and will refuse to install unless there is some >>> "extended" (NOT "expanded") RAM above 1M. > > On Tue, 3 Nov 2009, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >> 3.1 wants HIMEM.SYS, but it most decidedly doesn't require memory above >> 1MB. It does require memory above 640kB. But 1MB memory works just fine. > > It is certainly true that you do not need to have MORE THAN 1MB. > In order to get Windoze 3.10 with 1MB to work, I had to configure it so > that 384K (or even just 64K) was seen as having address above 1M. The > botom 640K does not need to be fully populated - one of my 3.10 ATs had > 512K starting at address 0h, and another 512K (surely could have used 64K) > starting at address 10000h > HIMEM.SYS, and consequently Windoze 3.10 require a working A20 line, and > at least SOME memory accessed with a 1 in A20. That's weird. I never had to do anything like that... I just had HIMEM.SYS in the CONFIG.SYS of my PS/2 Model 50 (1MB RAM, 286 at 10MHz), and it Just Worked(tm). Peace... Sridhar From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Nov 3 16:11:27 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2009 14:11:27 -0800 (PST) Subject: 386 upgrade boards for IBM 5160s In-Reply-To: <4AF0A5D0.3080802@oldskool.org> References: <6dbe3c380911021352s22aa293cg45d2b357806de148@mail.gmail.com> <4AEF9FAC.6010107@oldskool.org> <20091102203241.M39950@shell.lmi.net> <4AEFB51D.6050305@oldskool.org> <6dbe3c380911030459m36c7dc05oc389c4640c441c4f@mail.gmail.com> <20091103100432.Q61346@shell.lmi.net> <4AF0A5D0.3080802@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <20091103140520.I61346@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 3 Nov 2009, Jim Leonard wrote: > ...with the exception that pretty much the only thing you can run under > 3.00 in real mode are the desktop accessories it comes with. Most 3.x > applications require at least standard mode + 2M of real RAM. I used to use a font editor that ran under Win3.00, but would not run with 3.10 or above. Other than that, I switched every other copy of Windoze that I had over to 3.10. Right now I can't remember the name of the font editor. IIRC, it could do both HPLJ and Postscript fonts. It was not Poems font editor (which I used for Cordata and HPLJ fonts), nor Fontographer. From teoz at neo.rr.com Tue Nov 3 16:19:30 2009 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2009 17:19:30 -0500 Subject: 386 upgrade boards for IBM 5160s References: <6dbe3c380911021352s22aa293cg45d2b357806de148@mail.gmail.com><4AEF9FAC.6010107@oldskool.org> <20091102203241.M39950@shell.lmi.net><4AEFB51D.6050305@oldskool.org><6dbe3c380911030459m36c7dc05oc389c4640c441c4f@mail.gmail.com><20091103100432.Q61346@shell.lmi.net> <4AF0A5D0.3080802@oldskool.org> <20091103140520.I61346@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <8124F90E680A4DA1A3D49E6D0B749290@dell8300> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fred Cisin" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, November 03, 2009 5:11 PM Subject: Re: 386 upgrade boards for IBM 5160s > On Tue, 3 Nov 2009, Jim Leonard wrote: >> ...with the exception that pretty much the only thing you can run under >> 3.00 in real mode are the desktop accessories it comes with. Most 3.x >> applications require at least standard mode + 2M of real RAM. > > I used to use a font editor that ran under Win3.00, but would not run with > 3.10 or above. Other than that, I switched every other copy of Windoze > that I had over to 3.10. > Right now I can't remember the name of the font editor. IIRC, it could > do both HPLJ and Postscript fonts. It was not Poems font editor (which I > used for Cordata and HPLJ fonts), nor Fontographer. Windows 3.0 had adobe ATM fonts while 3.1 was Truetype (TT) correct? From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Nov 3 16:24:43 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2009 14:24:43 -0800 (PST) Subject: 386 upgrade boards for IBM 5160s In-Reply-To: <4AF0A553.1000007@gmail.com> References: <6dbe3c380911021352s22aa293cg45d2b357806de148@mail.gmail.com> <4AEF9FAC.6010107@oldskool.org> <20091102203241.M39950@shell.lmi.net> <4AEFB51D.6050305@oldskool.org> <6dbe3c380911030459m36c7dc05oc389c4640c441c4f@mail.gmail.com> <20091103100432.Q61346@shell.lmi.net> <4AF0762E.1010503@gmail.com> <20091103104932.V61346@shell.lmi.net> <4AF0A553.1000007@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20091103141224.L61346@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 3 Nov 2009, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > That's weird. I never had to do anything like that... I just had > HIMEM.SYS in the CONFIG.SYS of my PS/2 Model 50 (1MB RAM, 286 at 10MHz), > and it Just Worked(tm). Doesn't the 50 default to 640K at 0h and 384K at 10000h? Or is 384K just unavailable in real mode? In August 1991, I tried to install beta 3.10 on a TI "Travelmate" (at Microsoft Developer's Conference) I was the apparently the first, of eventually millions of people, to complain about it turning on write-caching. Some of the MICROS~1 staff told me that the installation failure was explicitly due to HIMEM.SYS not having access to anything above 1 MB. Until now, I never had any reason to doubt their explanation. I only had one 80286 machine that gave me a choice of where that 384K was going to be, and it also failed to install with the 1MB being contiguous. From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Tue Nov 3 18:04:04 2009 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Wed, 04 Nov 2009 00:04:04 +0000 Subject: A few classic computer photos In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4AF0C4F4.9040106@philpem.me.uk> Zane H. Healy wrote: > The question that comes to mind is, is they guy a Fuji employee, or does he > work for a third party support outfit? He works for a third party. From what I've been told, most of the Fuji machines that are "out there" are out on some form of lease agreement. That is, you pay ?x per year for the machinery, $y for all the consumables, and $THIRD_PARTY sends out an engineer to fix it when something goes wrong. AIUI, there aren't many Fuji Frontiers (or minilabs in general) that were bought outright. From what I've heard, the cost of a brand-new Fuji Frontier is somewhere between ?75k and ?300k depending on the options you want. Most of the minilab machines I've worked on were base-model or slightly above. If you can live with something that's a little behind the tech curve and has been refurbished at least once, think around ?15k-?20k as a starting price. If properly maintained, Frontiers are near bulletproof aside from some really silly design faults. Specifically, on the 570 the cables from the "CTL23" board are quite heavy and tend to pull out of the connectors. These should have had clips, or better connectors. On the 350, the distribution unit tends to get a little unreliable -- meaning you get paper jams every few minutes. You can disable the distribution, but it slows the printing down from ~1 print per 5 seconds to around 1 print per 15 seconds. Not really a good thing in a busy photo lab. The one thing that does annoy me is that the printing fault was declared a "software issue" in July, and none of the three servoids thought to check the cable that goes from the CTL23 to the backprinter module. It took this cable slipping out far enough to disconnect half the pins and trip the "loose cable detect" circuitry before it got plugged back in, which fixed three faults in one shot (power-on error, not heating up, backprint). I mean, seriously, aren't "loose cables" second on the list of things to check, right after "is the power on?" > The best was the device we got totally refurbished because of his > incompetence. The only thing wrong was a switch, but he replaced *EVERY* > major part before figuring that out! :-) Well, we've got what amounts to a new backprinter in the Frontier. It's not a major bit of kit, but it's nice to be able to read the filenames on the back of the prints again. It's funny, if the centre row of a 9-pin DM printer is missing, 8s look a lot like 0s. Makes for good fun when sorting and packing orders after they've been printed. The full list of repaired bits -- from memory: - Printer assembly (head and driver board) - Backing pad (think "platen") - Two print ribbons ("hmm, it's missing dots, must be the ribbon... oh, they sent us a duff ribbon, better try another one... hmm, still no? oh, I give up") - Printer to driver-PCB cable On the bright side, I doubt the backprinter will develop any serious faults for quite some time.. :) -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Tue Nov 3 18:07:58 2009 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Wed, 04 Nov 2009 00:07:58 +0000 Subject: A few classic computer photos In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4AF0C5DE.2000304@philpem.me.uk> Tony Duell wrote: > And the number of garage mechanics (from main dealers) who do things that > are expressly forbidden by the workshop manual (and forbidden for a good > reason). "'Ere, Bob, pass'us that 'ammer." "Why, Jim?" "Bloody oilpan bolt's stuck. Needs sum per-sa-shin!" "A'ight then.." *WHACK* *WHACK* *BAM* *WHACK* *CLANG* At which point Jim realises he's been trying to turn the bolt the wrong way, and has now ruined both the bolt-head and the threads. The air turns blue... Then he realises it's a customer's car anyway, and all of a sudden it's Not A Problem (tm). The job form is filled out as "Oil change done", and the customer leaves happy... until 1,000 miles later when the engine seizes up (or the bolt drops out in the middle of the road). There are some people I wouldn't touch near a paperclip, much less a screwdriver. >> Anyway, the guy arrives and the first thing he asks: >> "Have you got a copy of the service manual?" > > Eek!!. I suspect my reply would be something along the lines of 'Your company > refused to sell me a proper service manaul. If you can get me one, then > I'll let you borrrow when you come to repair my printer' Actually, the "operator level" service manual is included with the machine... or at least the Operator Level manual and parts diagram are. There's (just) enough info in the 570 OLS Manual and Parts/Wiring Diagram book to narrow down most faults to a given PCB. There aren't any schematics, but you can do PCB-swaps. Better than nothing if you've got another machine to cannibalise parts from... > What is the point of a service engineer who doesn't carry even basic tools? Consuming oxygen? Actually, do servoids do that? Wouldn't have thought respiration was necessary for droids... > On the other hand > most of my tookit will fit in a sensibly-sized back ('most' includes > things like a Weller TCP soldering iron, FLuck multiumeter, LogicDart, > screwdrivers, nutdrivers, hex keys, torx keys, and so on. I could probably do the same -- Fluke 25 DMM, spare battery, CK toolkit, Antex 660TC soldering station, and my "cheap and made of monkey-metal" 'Pro'sKit' mini-screwdriver (good for small devices where the CK kit is too big). The CK also includes a full set of "Anti-Tamper" Torx bits (which will screw and unscrew both common types of Torx bit), a few hex bits and some sockets (VERY useful for realigning Sky dishes, even when the bolts have rusted). I usually bring an ASUS Eee 1000H netbook, Ericsson K800i (GSM triband mobile with 3G data and USB) with me as well -- on the basis that I can then connect to my home server (or anywhere else on t'internet for that matter) and grab any PDFs I might need. Saves dragging reams of paper around. >> Too true. There are a lot of Olympus OM4s that are starting to suffer >> from ciruitry failure (read: metering and shutter times go badly out of > > I seem to remeebr you should stick to odd-numbered OM's as they're > mechanical. So that'll be the OM-1 series then, but they weren't pure-mechanical.The aperture priority metering still needs 2x SR44 coin cells to run. Also, the motor drive (if you have one) needs 4x AAs. Full-mechanical? A Minox maybe? Or probably a Stereo Realist (which has been mentioned elsethread). -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From glen.slick at gmail.com Tue Nov 3 23:13:49 2009 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2009 21:13:49 -0800 Subject: Looking for CMD CQD-200/TM or CQD-200/M EPROM images Message-ID: <1e1fc3e90911032113i3210025el86c84ca426e3fe5d@mail.gmail.com> Does anyone have a CMD CQD-200/TM or CQD-200/M and an EPROM programmer or other means of reading the EPROM images that could send me a copy? I think I have mostly figured out the CSR decode PAL for a CQD-200/T and programmed a new one and now it responds to both the disk and tape CSRs, but only the tape CSR looks like it has normal values. Maybe I also need to replace the EPROMs with CQD-200/TM or CQD-200/M EPROM images to get it to respond normally to the disk CSR. I have had encouraging results so far doing the same to convert a CQD-220/M into a CQD-220/TM and got it working with both a disk and a tape at the same time. -Glen From glen.slick at gmail.com Tue Nov 3 23:48:56 2009 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2009 21:48:56 -0800 Subject: Speaking of VAX memory... MSV11PK->MSV11PL? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1e1fc3e90911032148m23b21c2eu3d2cf0aeb5a7712a@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Nov 3, 2009 at 11:05 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > Hi, All, > > Today's threads about maxing out VAX4000s reminds me that I've been > meaning to ask if anyone has fully stuffed a 512KB MSV11-PK and turned > it into a 1MB MSV11-PL? Do you mean turn a 256KB MSV11-PK into a 512KB MSV11-PL? I have an M8067-LB in front of me right now that is fully stuffed with 8 rows of 9 MK4564N chips which should work out to be 512KB, which matches the M8067-LA MSV11-PL description in the PDP-11 field guide. The only way the memory could be doubled would be to replace the 64K chips with half as many 256K chips. Does the board support 256K chips? From snhirsch at gmail.com Tue Nov 3 19:54:37 2009 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2009 20:54:37 -0500 (EST) Subject: Panasonic JA751 8" drive question In-Reply-To: <4AEFFAB3.2050.3A31E3@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4AEEA459.11452.2442C6@cclist.sydex.com>, <4AEFFAB3.2050.3A31E3@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 3 Nov 2009, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 2 Nov 2009 at 18:03, Steven Hirsch wrote: > >> Unfortunately, no. The solenoids need +24V. > > Solenoids, plural? For head-load and a door-lock? Correct. > Very strange indeed. Might this drive have been offered in a 5.25" > compatible configuration, without either solenoid? I wonder if > Matsushita made this particular drive variant solely for GE Medical? It's possible, I guess. Finally located the manual on Herb Johnson's website and have ordered a copy. That may bring more information to light. For sure it's not a common model, but is very "modern" in its construction. I'm guessing it could have been one of the latest (if not THE latest) 8" drive design marketed. Steve -- From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Wed Nov 4 02:20:10 2009 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2009 09:20:10 +0100 Subject: A few classic computer photos In-Reply-To: References: <20091101171727.9a7d6ba7.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <20091104092010.76d0ea27.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Sun, 1 Nov 2009 20:21:37 +0000 (GMT) ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > I do have a scanning digital camera. actually. And it's on-topic here. > It's got a linear CCD (I can't remember the resolution, around 2000 > pixrls, I think) that's tracked across the frame on a leadscrew. it takes > Nikon (35mm SLR) lenses. Shoot slide film and use a slide copier with that camera to digitize the slides. A Nikon mount slide copier or macro lens should be no problem. That is what many DSLR users do to digitize there old slides. A slide scanner is better, but much more expensive. If the quality of the photographed slides is good enough there is no reason to spend $$$$ for a proper slide scanner. -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From jplist2008 at kiwigeek.com Wed Nov 4 08:24:56 2009 From: jplist2008 at kiwigeek.com (JP Hindin) Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2009 08:24:56 -0600 (CST) Subject: Talking to a VAX4000/300; Also RAM In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 3 Nov 2009, Ian King wrote: > > Where would the sages suggest I begin in tracking down a fault in one > > of > > the four boards: > > http://www.kiwigeek.com/misc/VAX4000_Mem_Errors.JPG > > > > My thanks to everyone who made very good, but due to my incompetance, > > unused suggestions. > > > > Glad to help, even if it wasn't needed. :-) So what boards are those? > The 4000/300 Technical Manual calls out two different memory boards, one > 32MB, the other 64MB, and there are four memory slots. I'd *love* to > beef up my 4000 with more than 128MB. -- Ian Hey Ian; They are labelled as Clearpoint Research Corporate, DCMEV40, 128MBX. They're covered in 4C1004s (if that makes sense to anyone). I've determined which board is causing the failure, that was the easy part - thankfully only a single board out of the set of four. The KA670 manual does not describe in sufficient detail the diagnostic tests for memory to determine any better what it's up to. I've started running the test scripts manually to see if I can get better output from the test. I found a diagnostics manual for VAX, "EK-1VAXD-TM-001 VAX Diagnostic Design Guide". I haven't attached it yet, but it might prove more useful. I have _never_ even attempted to repair a RAM board, so I'm not sure how to go about isolating which chip is at fault... A new adventure! - JP From mtapley at swri.edu Wed Nov 4 09:55:06 2009 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2009 09:55:06 -0600 Subject: Origins of Internet, old Physics Today article In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 18:04 -0600 11/3/09, Keith M wrote: > >How about here? > >http://www.slac.stanford.edu/pubs/slacpubs/7750/slac-pub-7815.pdf > >This looks to be the same one. > >Forget the $23. > >Keith > That is essentially the same article. Minor editorial/wording changes and the final page was split off into a "box" in the magazine, but same content and same illustrations. Yeah, for $23, Physics Today can keep the editorial modifications :-). Thanks, Kevin! Now that I know everyone has access to it, I can recycle my paper copy. At 18:04 -0600 11/3/09, Rich Alderson wrote: >So not the origins of the Internet, most likely, but rather of the World >Wide Waste^H^H^H^Heb? Rich is right, I misphrased the subject line. -- - Mark 210-379-4635 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Large Asteroids headed toward planets inhabited by beings that don't have technology adequate to stop them: Think of it as Evolution in Fast-Forward. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Nov 4 11:34:10 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2009 12:34:10 -0500 Subject: Speaking of VAX memory... MSV11PK->MSV11PL? In-Reply-To: <1e1fc3e90911032148m23b21c2eu3d2cf0aeb5a7712a@mail.gmail.com> References: <1e1fc3e90911032148m23b21c2eu3d2cf0aeb5a7712a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Nov 4, 2009 at 12:48 AM, Glen Slick wrote: > On Tue, Nov 3, 2009 at 11:05 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> meaning to ask if anyone has fully stuffed a 512KB MSV11-PK and turned >> it into a 1MB MSV11-PL? > > Do you mean turn a 256KB MSV11-PK into a 512KB MSV11-PL? Ah, yes. That's what I mean. > I have an M8067-LB in front of me right now that is fully stuffed with > 8 rows of 9 MK4564N chips which should work out to be 512KB, which > matches the M8067-LA MSV11-PL description in the PDP-11 field guide. I must have doubled things in my head twice. I was also probably thinking about one of the dual-height cards being 256K, so a quad-height card "must" be 512K. > The only way the memory could be doubled would be to replace the 64K > chips with half as many 256K chips. ?Does the board support 256K > chips? I am not claiming that 256K chips work. I used the right DEC part number designations but misremembered the capacity. What I meant was to take a board that is half-full of 4164s and to stuff it full of 4164s (which I did explain in the text, just with the capacity wrong). Thanks and sorry for the mistake. -ethan From jtp at chinalake.com Wed Nov 4 11:37:13 2009 From: jtp at chinalake.com (J. Peterson) Date: Wed, 04 Nov 2009 12:37:13 -0500 Subject: VT420 Needs Home - Boston, MA area Message-ID: <4AF1BBC9.2020000@chinalake.com> Just found an amber VT420 in my storage. Powers up fine, excellent condition, MMJ cable. Needs a home. Metro west Boston, happy to hold for a while. -Jim, jtp at chinalake.com From RichA at vulcan.com Wed Nov 4 13:22:30 2009 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2009 11:22:30 -0800 Subject: Origins of Internet, old Physics Today article In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > From: Mark Tapley > Sent: Wednesday, November 04, 2009 7:55 AM > Yeah, for $23, Physics Today can keep the editorial > modifications :-). Thanks, Kevin! Now that I know everyone has access > to it, I can recycle my paper copy. NOOOOOOOO! You must keep it forever! Nothing else is sure to ... Sorry. Wrong thread. Nothing to see here, move along, move along. :-) Rich From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Nov 4 14:10:34 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2009 20:10:34 +0000 (GMT) Subject: A few classic computer photos In-Reply-To: from "Roger Pugh" at Nov 3, 9 09:14:04 pm Message-ID: > > > > > > I haev quite a collection of sub-miniature Minoltas already :-). And I > > have one Minox, which is a beautiful piece of engineering. Alas a > > Tessina > > is way out of my price range... > > Pentax 110's and Exakta's are my favorites. I wouldnm't call the former a 'favourite', although I have 3 or 4 of them with an assortment of lenses, flash, motordrive, etc. It's certainly an interesting camera, although too much electronics (and no manual override) for my taste. But Exaktas I love. I generally describe them as the 'Citroen DS of 35mm cameras' (if I ever learn to drive, a DS is top of my list of desirable vehicles...). The Exakta is totally unconentional. Every control is where you don't expect it. But then it has shutter speeds from 1/500 (or 1/1000 on later models) to 12 _seconds_. A film cutting knife (and you can run cassette-to-cassette) so you can cut off an process part of the film. Interchangeable viewfinders (I must repair the metering prism I have for mine -- alas the meter coil itself is open-circuit). And so on. Among the 35mm Exactas around me at the moment is a VP exacta taking 127 roll film (6*4,5 cm frame). Yes, I like them... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Nov 4 14:12:01 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2009 20:12:01 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Looking for LED display of a HP33E or HP34 or similar In-Reply-To: <4affc5e0911031332q22254854pa4437e9952502565@mail.gmail.com> from "Joachim Thiemann" at Nov 3, 9 04:32:48 pm Message-ID: > So, is there anyone on the list who has a display for that type of > HP calculator (I think they got used in several of the 3x series)? It > should look like this: No, I don't have a spare, but AFAIK all 3xC and 3xE models (the 'spice series') take the same display. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Nov 4 14:32:05 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2009 20:32:05 +0000 (GMT) Subject: A few classic computer photos In-Reply-To: <4AF0C5DE.2000304@philpem.me.uk> from "Philip Pemberton" at Nov 4, 9 00:07:58 am Message-ID: > > Tony Duell wrote: > > And the number of garage mechanics (from main dealers) who do things that > > are expressly forbidden by the workshop manual (and forbidden for a good > > reason). > > "'Ere, Bob, pass'us that 'ammer." > "Why, Jim?" > "Bloody oilpan bolt's stuck. Needs sum per-sa-shin!" > "A'ight then.." > *WHACK* *WHACK* *BAM* *WHACK* *CLANG* My story is somewhat worse than that. Some modern cars are made from metal that becomes dangerously weakend if deformed and then pulled back to shape. The _only_ repair proecedure is to replace the crossmember or whatever. But a main dealer said they were going to simply use hydraulic jacks to reshape the back of the bodyshell after a minor accident. I knew there was a reason for buying the _official_ shop manual... Or the manual which specifically telss you to use a special extractor tool to remvoe the constnat velocity joint from the driveshaft. And tells you not to grip the driveshaft in a bench vice. So what do I see at the main dealers? A driveshaft clmaped in a vice with somebody whacking the CV joint with a hammer. Ouch! > >> Anyway, the guy arrives and the first thing he asks: > >> "Have you got a copy of the service manual?" > > > > Eek!!. I suspect my reply would be something along the lines of 'Your company > > refused to sell me a proper service manaul. If you can get me one, then > > I'll let you borrrow when you come to repair my printer' > > Actually, the "operator level" service manual is included with the > machine... or at least the Operator Level manual and parts diagram are. Oh, that's not too bad... > > There's (just) enough info in the 570 OLS Manual and Parts/Wiring > Diagram book to narrow down most faults to a given PCB. There aren't any > schematics, but you can do PCB-swaps. Better than nothing if you've got > another machine to cannibalise parts from... To be honset, I've stopped expecting scheamtics in modern service manuals. How detailed is the wiring diagram? Does is give signal names to all the wires? If so, it's a great help in figuring out what's going on. > > > What is the point of a service engineer who doesn't carry even basic tools? > > Consuming oxygen? Producing CO_2 ? > > I could probably do the same -- Fluke 25 DMM, spare battery, CK toolkit, > Antex 660TC soldering station, and my "cheap and made of monkey-metal" > 'Pro'sKit' mini-screwdriver (good for small devices where the CK kit is I haev all sorts of small tools. A couple of the sets that RS components sell (which include small open-ended spanners nad nutdrivers, very useful for taking the drive motor apart in HP desktop calculator card readers..), and a good set of Swiss watchmaker's screwdrivers. And off couse Torx down to TX3 (I must get the smaller ones), hex keys down to 28 thou (Yes, I have used it on a classic computer), and so on. > too big). The CK also includes a full set of "Anti-Tamper" Torx bits > (which will screw and unscrew both common types of Torx bit), a few hex I think Torx drivers are essential nowadays... I alas have 'System Zero' bits for the few devices that are designed to be really hard to take apart. I've seen them used on a modem, on the PSU for the Pasasonic/Quasar handheld computer and on a thing called a 'Ferret' which is a combinded breakout box, protocol converter, EPROM programmer, printer, etc > bits and some sockets (VERY useful for realigning Sky dishes, even when > the bolts have rusted). > > I usually bring an ASUS Eee 1000H netbook, Ericsson K800i (GSM triband > mobile with 3G data and USB) with me as well -- on the basis that I can > then connect to my home server (or anywhere else on t'internet for that > matter) and grab any PDFs I might need. Saves dragging reams of paper > around. I don;t have that luxury. On the other hand, I prefer working from a schematic on paper anyway... > > > >> Too true. There are a lot of Olympus OM4s that are starting to suffer > >> from ciruitry failure (read: metering and shutter times go badly out of > > > > I seem to remeebr you should stick to odd-numbered OM's as they're > > mechanical. > > So that'll be the OM-1 series then, but they weren't pure-mechanical.The OM1 and OM3 IIRC. > aperture priority metering still needs 2x SR44 coin cells to run. > Also, the motor drive (if you have one) needs 4x AAs. True. But those functions aren't _essential_ to take photographs (unlike shutter timing). > > Full-mechanical? A Minox maybe? Or probably a Stereo Realist (which has > been mentioned elsethread). The Minox C is electonically-tiemd (no I don't have one). The Minox B is entirely mechaincal apart from a ocupled exposure meter, which uses about 4 components IIRC). There are plenty of purely mechanical cameras (I don't count flash sync contacts!), and many more if you 'allow' built in exposure meters (which may well not include any active devices). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Nov 4 14:35:40 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2009 20:35:40 +0000 (GMT) Subject: A few classic computer photos In-Reply-To: <20091104092010.76d0ea27.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> from "Jochen Kunz" at Nov 4, 9 09:20:10 am Message-ID: > > On Sun, 1 Nov 2009 20:21:37 +0000 (GMT) > ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > > > I do have a scanning digital camera. actually. And it's on-topic here.=20 > > It's got a linear CCD (I can't remember the resolution, around 2000=20 > > pixrls, I think) that's tracked across the frame on a leadscrew. it takes= > =20 > > Nikon (35mm SLR) lenses. > Shoot slide film and use a slide copier with that camera to digitize > the slides. A Nikon mount slide copier or macro lens should be no Given that this devices is limited-resolution (by today's standards) and monochrome only (both the CCD and the PERQ display), I wonder if it's going to be any better than shooting negative film and having the minilab burn a CD-ROM for me. > problem. That is what many DSLR users do to digitize there old slides. > A slide scanner is better, but much more expensive. If the quality of > the photographed slides is good enough there is no reason to spend $$$$ The quality of my slides exceeds the resolution of this device... > for a proper slide scanner. -tony From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Nov 4 16:36:46 2009 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2009 14:36:46 -0800 (PST) Subject: A few classic computer photos In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 4 Nov 2009, Tony Duell wrote: > Among the 35mm Exactas around me at the moment is a VP exacta taking 127 > roll film (6*4,5 cm frame). Yes, I like them... I assume you mean 4x6.5cm? ;-) 120 = 6cm while 127 = 4cm I activelly shoot 120, and need to buy a roll or two of B&W 127 as I want to see if the Yashica 44LM I have still works. The Exactas are interesting looking camera's, I ran across a book on them recently. I really like the results you can get with some of the really old lenses. Zane From drb at msu.edu Wed Nov 4 16:59:37 2009 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Wed, 04 Nov 2009 17:59:37 -0500 Subject: A few classic computer photos In-Reply-To: (Your message of Wed, 04 Nov 2009 20:10:34 GMT.) References: Message-ID: <200911042259.nA4Mxbcp018900@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > But Exaktas I love. I generally describe them as the 'Citroen DS of 35mm > cameras' (if I ever learn to drive, a DS is top of my list of desirable > vehicles...). The Exakta is totally unconentional. Every control is where > you don't expect it. But then it has shutter speeds from 1/500 (or 1/1000 > on later models) to 12 _seconds_. A film cutting knife (and you can run > cassette-to-cassette) so you can cut off an process part of the film. > Interchangeable viewfinders (I must repair the metering prism I have for > mine -- alas the meter coil itself is open-circuit). And so on. Recently, I found a late variant Exakta VX which needs at least a CLA. I love U Surplus. :) Anyone know a good Exakta repair/restore guy? De From steve at radiorobots.com Wed Nov 4 17:04:26 2009 From: steve at radiorobots.com (steve stutman) Date: Wed, 04 Nov 2009 18:04:26 -0500 Subject: VT420 Needs Home - Boston, MA area In-Reply-To: <4AF1BBC9.2020000@chinalake.com> References: <4AF1BBC9.2020000@chinalake.com> Message-ID: <4AF2087A.6050102@radiorobots.com> J. Peterson wrote: > Just found an amber VT420 in my storage. Powers up fine, excellent > condition, MMJ cable. Needs a home. Metro west Boston, happy to hold > for a while. > -Jim, jtp at chinalake.com Hi Jim, I could use on bench. I'm in Sudbury. still available? Thanks, Steve 617.901.3490 From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Nov 4 19:19:30 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2009 20:19:30 -0500 Subject: Junkyard Cray Message-ID: I saw some Cray debris in my latest electronics junkyard - the three section power supply seat for an X-MP/24. Yes, X-MP. They came in with a load from Canada, and the odd thing was they clearly had been junked recently, as the conductive schmutz on the busbars was still sticky, yet not full of an accumulation of crap from being exposed for year. I am sicking the owner on the rest of the machine, but it is very likely to have been cut up by now. Still, any Cray owners need a few spare power units? -- Will From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Thu Nov 5 02:24:32 2009 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2009 09:24:32 +0100 Subject: A few classic computer photos In-Reply-To: References: <20091104092010.76d0ea27.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <20091105092432.3cddee94.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Wed, 4 Nov 2009 20:35:40 +0000 (GMT) ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > Given that this devices is limited-resolution (by today's standards) But still good enough for use in web applications. > and monochrome only (both the CCD and the PERQ display), OK. Can't help on the PERQ display. But the CCD can scan color. Just do thre scans with red, green and blue light... If you have an enlarger with dichoritic color head it will be the perfect light source. > I wonder if it's going to be any better than shooting negative film > and having the minilab burn a CD-ROM for me. Sure. The minilab is much more efficient. But not as much fun. ;-) > The quality of my slides exceeds the resolution of this device... Slides exceed the resolution of most digital cameras. You have to come up with at least 20 MP to mach a good 35 mm slide. -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From quapla at xs4all.nl Thu Nov 5 03:11:03 2009 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (Ed Groenenberg) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2009 10:11:03 +0100 Subject: RKV-11 controller available Message-ID: Found during cleanup, a RKV-11 controller. It's a metal box, similar to a PDP-11/03. It contains a 4 slot backplane and 4 cards. One card has at the top 2 Berg connectors. Box has no front. Assumed to be working, as it was a shelf spare. If interested, make an offer off list. If only the cards and/or BP are wanted, I can disassemble the unit. Regards, Ed -- Certified : VCP 3.x, SCSI 3.x SCSA S10, SCNA S10 From hachti at hachti.de Thu Nov 5 08:37:50 2009 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Thu, 05 Nov 2009 15:37:50 +0100 Subject: RKV-11 controller available In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4AF2E33E.9090300@hachti.de> I'd probably interested... Wait...! Ed Groenenberg wrote: > Found during cleanup, a RKV-11 controller. > > It's a metal box, similar to a PDP-11/03. > It contains a 4 slot backplane and 4 cards. > One card has at the top 2 Berg connectors. > > Box has no front. > > Assumed to be working, as it was a shelf spare. > > If interested, make an offer off list. > If only the cards and/or BP are wanted, I can disassemble the unit. > > Regards, > > Ed -- http://www.hachti.de From hachti at hachti.de Thu Nov 5 08:40:27 2009 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Thu, 05 Nov 2009 15:40:27 +0100 Subject: RKV-11 controller available In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4AF2E3DB.2030905@hachti.de> Hi Ed, It'S QBus, I saw.... So my interest is not *THAT* high :-) If you don't find someone to take it, you can bring it with you. Best wishes, Philipp :-) Ed Groenenberg wrote: > Found during cleanup, a RKV-11 controller. > > It's a metal box, similar to a PDP-11/03. > It contains a 4 slot backplane and 4 cards. > One card has at the top 2 Berg connectors. > > Box has no front. > > Assumed to be working, as it was a shelf spare. > > If interested, make an offer off list. > If only the cards and/or BP are wanted, I can disassemble the unit. > > Regards, > > Ed -- http://www.hachti.de From woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net Thu Nov 5 09:25:22 2009 From: woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net (Dave Woyciesjes) Date: Thu, 05 Nov 2009 10:25:22 -0500 Subject: Origins of Internet, old Physics Today article In-Reply-To: <4AF09866.6090104@verizon.net> References: <4AF08804.8040400@vaxen.net> <4AF09866.6090104@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4AF2EE62.506@sbcglobal.net> Keith M wrote: > Rich Alderson wrote: > >> ...or a buy-it-online link that offers to provide it to you for only >> US$23.00. >> >> I took a look at the author's home page (Bebo White, retired from the >> Stanford Linear Accelerator Center, whom I used to know!), but the >> article >> is not available from there. > > How about here? > > http://www.slac.stanford.edu/pubs/slacpubs/7750/slac-pub-7815.pdf > > This looks to be the same one. > > Forget the $23. > > Keith > Yeah, appears to be the same... I was able to get the pdf, by my employer has a subscription to that site... And many other research sites.... :) -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- ICQ# 905818 --- AIM - woyciesjes --- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech - http://certification.comptia.org/ --- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst - http://www.ThinkHDI.com/ "From there to here, From here to there, Funny things are everywhere." --- Dr. Seuss From feldman.r at comcast.net Thu Nov 5 12:18:17 2009 From: feldman.r at comcast.net (feldman.r at comcast.net) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2009 18:18:17 +0000 (UTC) Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 75, Issue 8 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1743391944.4922681257445097604.JavaMail.root@sz0065a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message: 2 Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2009 20:10:34 +0000 (GMT) From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Subject: Re: A few classic computer photos To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain > > > > > > I haev quite a collection of sub-miniature Minoltas already :-). And I > > have one Minox, which is a beautiful piece of engineering. Alas a ? > > Tessina > > is way out of my price range... > > Pentax 110's and Exakta's are my favorites. I wouldnm't call the former a 'favourite', although I have 3 or 4 of them with an assortment of lenses, flash, motordrive, etc. It's certainly an interesting camera, although too much electronics (and no manual override) for my taste. But Exaktas I love. I generally describe them as the 'Citroen DS of 35mm cameras' (if I ever learn to drive, a DS is top of my list of desirable vehicles...). The Exakta is totally unconentional. Every control is where you don't expect it. But then it has shutter speeds from 1/500 (or 1/1000 on later models) to 12 _seconds_. A film cutting knife (and you can run cassette-to-cassette) so you can cut off an process part of the film. Interchangeable viewfinders (I must repair the metering prism I have for mine -- alas the meter coil itself is open-circuit). And so on. Among the 35mm Exactas around me at the moment is a VP exacta taking 127 roll film (6*4,5 cm frame). Yes, I like them... -tony ------------------------------ Tony, You might like looking at? http://captjack.exaktaphile.com/ ?. My second camera was an Exakta VXIIa, and I have owned and used several Exaktas. I now have a very early Olympus OM1 (made shortly after Leitz forced Olympus to change the name from M1 to OM1). ----------------------------- Message: 4 Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2009 20:32:05 +0000 (GMT) From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Subject: Re: A few classic computer photos To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain > >> Too true. There are a lot of Olympus OM4s that are starting to suffer > >> from ciruitry failure (read: metering and shutter times go badly out of > > > > I seem to remeebr you should stick to odd-numbered OM's ?as they're > > mechanical. > > So that'll be the OM-1 series then, but they weren't pure-mechanical.The OM1 and OM3 IIRC. > aperture priority metering still needs 2x SR44 coin cells to run. > Also, the motor drive (if you have one) needs 4x AAs. True. But those functions aren't _essential_ to take photographs (unlike shutter timing). > > Full-mechanical? A Minox maybe? Or probably a Stereo Realist (which has > been mentioned elsethread). well not include any active devices). -tony ----------------------------- ?As I wrote to Zane off-list, the OM1 takes one?PX625. You can't get these now, but you can use a Zinc-Air 675. You just need to put a fat o-ring around it to get the correct diameter to fit the battery compartment. Bob From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Nov 5 12:41:18 2009 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 05 Nov 2009 10:41:18 -0800 Subject: RKV-11 controller available In-Reply-To: <4AF2E3DB.2030905@hachti.de> References: <4AF2E3DB.2030905@hachti.de> Message-ID: <4AF31C4E.5040901@bitsavers.org> Philipp Hachtmann wrote: > Hi Ed, > > It'S QBus, I saw.... So my interest is not *THAT* high :-) It is an RK-11D with a QBus converter. From hachti at hachti.de Thu Nov 5 13:11:52 2009 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Thu, 05 Nov 2009 20:11:52 +0100 Subject: RKV-11 controller available In-Reply-To: <4AF31C4E.5040901@bitsavers.org> References: <4AF2E3DB.2030905@hachti.de> <4AF31C4E.5040901@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4AF32378.3050109@hachti.de> > It is an RK-11D with a QBus converter. RK11D for Unibus with a converter in front? Is the converter general purpose? That would increase my interest... -- http://www.hachti.de From hachti at hachti.de Thu Nov 5 13:12:41 2009 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Thu, 05 Nov 2009 20:12:41 +0100 Subject: Honeywell Level-6 In-Reply-To: <2789adda0911021921k2e001778m5a3c4a7e0e331232@mail.gmail.com> References: <4AEF9FB4.7070803@hachti.de> <2789adda0911021921k2e001778m5a3c4a7e0e331232@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4AF323A9.3040608@hachti.de> Hi Robert, > I worked on a 6/36 back in uh... 1977-78 doing 3780 & HASP, and I have > a few manuals tucked away, have to look this weekend. That sounds good! Looking forward to hear more. -- http://www.hachti.de From quapla at xs4all.nl Thu Nov 5 13:45:03 2009 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (Ed Groenenberg) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2009 20:45:03 +0100 Subject: RKV-11 controller available In-Reply-To: <4AF32378.3050109@hachti.de> References: <4AF2E3DB.2030905@hachti.de> <4AF31C4E.5040901@bitsavers.org> <4AF32378.3050109@hachti.de> Message-ID: <6e9f0bad38194d74267b97222cfbdbf8.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Indeed it would, but the M7257, is replaced with a M7268. (which has 4 berg connectors rather than 2 as I mentioned in my initial post). The M7257 is the 'Bus Control Module' while the M7268 is the 'RK-11D to QBus adapter. What you would like to have is the Qinverter made by Able (if I remember correctly). Ed >> It is an RK-11D with a QBus converter. > RK11D for Unibus with a converter in front? Is the converter general > purpose? That would increase my > interest... > > > > -- > http://www.hachti.de > -- Certified : VCP 3.x, SCSI 3.x SCSA S10, SCNA S10 From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Nov 5 14:07:53 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2009 20:07:53 +0000 (GMT) Subject: RKV-11 controller available In-Reply-To: <4AF2E3DB.2030905@hachti.de> from "Philipp Hachtmann" at Nov 5, 9 03:40:27 pm Message-ID: > > Hi Ed, > > It'S QBus, I saw.... So my interest is not *THAT* high :-) Yes, the RKV11 is Q-bus (aren't all xxV11 options Q-bus). There also should be a pair of dual-height boards that go with it, linkled up with ribbon cables (2 calbes per board, IIRC). One goes into a Qbus slot (the RKV11 backplane is custom, not standard Qbus), the other goes into the interface slot of an RK05. I have one, but AFAIK they are not that common. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Nov 5 13:40:51 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2009 19:40:51 +0000 (GMT) Subject: A few classic computer photos In-Reply-To: from "Zane H. Healy" at Nov 4, 9 02:36:46 pm Message-ID: > > > > On Wed, 4 Nov 2009, Tony Duell wrote: > > > Among the 35mm Exactas around me at the moment is a VP exacta taking 127 > > roll film (6*4,5 cm frame). Yes, I like them... > > I assume you mean 4x6.5cm? ;-) 120 = 6cm while 127 = 4cm I probably do. It's the standard 8-on-127 format. You get to use a red window to see where to wind the filkm to. The VP Exakta (VP = 'Vest Pocket' so called because the first 127-film cameras would fit in a vest (wasitcoat in the UK) pocket) is somewhat different to the 35mm models -- it has a fixed waist-level finder and of course no film cutting knife. The helical focussing mount is fixed ot the camera, the lens screws into the front of it. But it is an SLR and has shutter speeds from 1/1000s to 12s. It is also flash synchonised, which is very unusual in a camera that old. > > I activelly shoot 120, and need to buy a roll or two of B&W 127 as I want to I don't really use 120 film, other than in the roll-film backs for my large-format cmaeres. I do have a Pentacon 6 (looks like and overgrown 35mm SLR) that needs a bit of work (same story...) > see if the Yashica 44LM I have still works. > > The Exactas are interesting looking camera's, I ran across a book on them > recently. I really like the results you can get with some of the really old > lenses. The best Exakta lenses use the pre-war Carl Zeiss computations. The Panocolar, Tessar, etc. Myers lenses, IMHO, are not as good. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Nov 5 13:46:31 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2009 19:46:31 +0000 (GMT) Subject: A few classic computer photos In-Reply-To: <200911042259.nA4Mxbcp018900@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> from "Dennis Boone" at Nov 4, 9 05:59:37 pm Message-ID: > Recently, I found a late variant Exakta VX which needs at least a CLA. > I love U Surplus. :) > > Anyone know a good Exakta repair/restore guy? For obvious reasons I've never needed one :-) Exaktas are not hard to work on yourself if you feel like it. You'll need watchmaker's screwdrivers and a pair of non-magnetic tweezers[1], but not much else. If you want to have a go, I'll dig out the nearest model I have an talkyou through at least getting the shutter out of the bodyshell. There is osmething in one of Tomosy's books on dismantling the Exakta, I can check to see which one if you want to try to find it. [1] There is nothing more annoying than not being able to drop the screw ehre you want it becahse it is sticking to the tweezers... Exaktas tend to suffer from ; Dried out lubriicant (sticking, chutter not closing fully, etc) Cracked plastic base for the sync contact assembly (flash problems, can also jam the shutter). This can often be stuck back together, or a new part made. Hardened or pingholed shutter curtains. You have to make new ones (the material is avaialble I think). And not much else. Unless they've been majorly misused! -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Nov 5 14:14:49 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2009 20:14:49 +0000 (GMT) Subject: RKV-11 controller available In-Reply-To: <4AF31C4E.5040901@bitsavers.org> from "Al Kossow" at Nov 5, 9 10:41:18 am Message-ID: > > Philipp Hachtmann wrote: > > Hi Ed, > > > > It'S QBus, I saw.... So my interest is not *THAT* high :-) > > It is an RK-11D with a QBus converter. Not really!. IIRC 3 of the 4 board in an RKV11 box are the same as those in an RK11-D. the other one (which has the Berg connectors to the 2 other boards I mentioned) is specific to the RKV11. It is not a RK11-D + DW11-B, and you can't trivially turn it into a unibus controller. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Nov 5 13:51:16 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2009 19:51:16 +0000 (GMT) Subject: A few classic computer photos In-Reply-To: <20091105092432.3cddee94.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> from "Jochen Kunz" at Nov 5, 9 09:24:32 am Message-ID: > > On Wed, 4 Nov 2009 20:35:40 +0000 (GMT) > ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > > > Given that this devices is limited-resolution (by today's standards) > But still good enough for use in web applications. True enough. > > > and monochrome only (both the CCD and the PERQ display), > OK. Can't help on the PERQ display. But the CCD can scan color. Just do I susepct you'd have to do 3 scans and produce 3 files on the PERQ which you later combine into the colour image. > thre scans with red, green and blue light... If you have an enlarger > with dichoritic color head it will be the perfect light source. Indeed I do. There is one problem. It's a DeVere 504 (5*4" neagtive carrier) with the Dichromat head. It's not small or light. And nor is the PERQ. And they are not close together (I deliberately arranged for the darkroom to be far from computers and tools). Whether I could use the head on its own, I suspect I could, and that's quite easy to move. [Yes, the head and timer do contain electronics. But it's all standard compoents (apart from transformers, etc), so I can repair it. ] > > > The quality of my slides exceeds the resolution of this device... > Slides exceed the resolution of most digital cameras. You have to come > up with at least 20 MP to mach a good 35 mm slide. Indeed. As I said, I will consider buying a digital camera when it exceeds the quality of my flim cameras. And as yopu may have guessed from my enlarger, I have large format film cameras... -tony From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Nov 5 14:34:23 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2009 15:34:23 -0500 Subject: RKV-11 controller available In-Reply-To: <4AF32378.3050109@hachti.de> References: <4AF2E3DB.2030905@hachti.de> <4AF31C4E.5040901@bitsavers.org> <4AF32378.3050109@hachti.de> Message-ID: On 11/5/09, Philipp Hachtmann wrote: >> It is an RK-11D with a QBus converter. > RK11D for Unibus with a converter in front? Is the converter general > purpose? That would increase my > interest... The RK11D contains: M7254, M7255, M7256, and M7257 in a hex-height backplane that fits well in a BA-11-type chassis (expansion BA-11, or 11/34 or 11/24 or 11/44 CPU enclosure, etc) The RKV11D contains: M7254, M7255, M7256, and M7268, on a quad-height backplane typically mounted in its own "11/03" type enclosure, that interfaces to the host via Berg cables back to an M7269. The RK11C/RK11D use a BC11-A (Unibus) cable to talk to the first drive. It plugs into the hex-height backplane. The RKV11D uses a pair of 40-pin Berg cables (70-09026-00) identical to what the RK8E uses. Those plug into two 40-pin connectors on one of the RKV11D modules (M7268) and get into the drive backplane via an M993 paddle card. Here's a module list of all the relevant cards: RK11D M7254 - RK11 STATUS CNTRL M7255 - RK11-D DISK CONTROL M7256 - RK11-D REGISTERS BOARD M7257 - RK11-D BUS CONTROL vs RKV11D (BA-11N) M7254 - RK11 STATUS CNTRL M7255 - RK11-D DISK CONTROL M7256 - RK11-D REGISTERS BOARD M7268 - RKV11, RK11-D TO Q BUS ADAPTER RKV11D (Qbus host) M7269 - RKV11 CONTROL (16-bit DMA only) To answer your original question, the M7269 incorporates elements of a "Qniverter", but is not specifically a generic Qbus-to-Unibus device. -ethan From rogpugh at mac.com Thu Nov 5 14:47:56 2009 From: rogpugh at mac.com (Roger Pugh) Date: Thu, 05 Nov 2009 20:47:56 +0000 Subject: A few classic computer photos In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <97AF4B9C-900F-425E-A65A-79B29E16709B@mac.com> >> >> Pentax 110's and Exakta's are my favorites. > > I wouldnm't call the former a 'favourite', although I have 3 or 4 > of them > with an assortment of lenses, flash, motordrive, etc. It's > certainly an > interesting camera, although too much electronics (and no manual > override) for my taste. > > But Exaktas I love. I generally describe them as the 'Citroen DS of > 35mm > cameras' (if I ever learn to drive, a DS is top of my list of > desirable > vehicles...). The Exakta is totally unconentional. Every control is > where > you don't expect it. But then it has shutter speeds from 1/500 (or > 1/1000 > on later models) to 12 _seconds_. A film cutting knife (and you can > run > cassette-to-cassette) so you can cut off an process part of the film. > Interchangeable viewfinders (I must repair the metering prism I > have for > mine -- alas the meter coil itself is open-circuit). And so on. > > Among the 35mm Exactas around me at the moment is a VP exacta > taking 127 > roll film (6*4,5 cm frame). Yes, I like them... > > -tony pentax 110's are such a fine example of Japanese engineering. I have two VP's. one black one chrome exakta 11a's and b's and a VX1000.. And behind them are the Periflex's another unusual design! Enough of this, we are waaaaaay off topic!! From drb at msu.edu Thu Nov 5 14:46:30 2009 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Thu, 05 Nov 2009 15:46:30 -0500 Subject: A few classic computer photos In-Reply-To: (Your message of Thu, 05 Nov 2009 19:46:31 GMT.) References: Message-ID: <200911052046.nA5KkUwd023159@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > For obvious reasons I've never needed one :-) :) > Exaktas are not hard to work on yourself if you feel like it. You'll > need watchmaker's screwdrivers and a pair of non-magnetic tweezers[1], > but not much else. If you want to have a go, I'll dig out the nearest > model I have an talkyou through at least getting the shutter out of the > bodyshell. There is osmething in one of Tomosy's books on dismantling > the Exakta, I can check to see which one if you want to try to find it. I'm not entirely comfortable with precision mechanicals, but I may break down and have a go. Are you familiar with Miles Upton's book? Not cheap, but if it's as good as some people think, might be worth it. I'm pretty sure I don't want to do curtains myself. It'll be a bit before I have time to dive into this project, so don't go digging just yet. De From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Nov 5 15:33:14 2009 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 05 Nov 2009 16:33:14 -0500 Subject: A few classic computer photos In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4AF3449A.7010707@gmail.com> Tony Duell wrote: > Indeed. As I said, I will consider buying a digital camera when it > exceeds the quality of my flim cameras. And as yopu may have guessed from > my enlarger, I have large format film cameras... How good are large format digital backs getting lately? Peace... Sridhar From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Nov 5 20:05:01 2009 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2009 19:05:01 -0700 Subject: A few classic computer photos In-Reply-To: <4AF3449A.7010707@gmail.com> References: <4AF3449A.7010707@gmail.com> Message-ID: At 4:33 PM -0500 11/5/09, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >Tony Duell wrote: >>Indeed. As I said, I will consider buying a digital camera when it >>exceeds the quality of my flim cameras. And as yopu may have guessed from >>my enlarger, I have large format film cameras... > >How good are large format digital backs getting lately? > >Peace... Sridhar A Nikon D700 or the equivalent Canon would blow anything away that most of us with a large format camera could afford. For that matter I can't afford the CFV-39 back I'd like for my Hasselblad (plus adapters are available for view cameras). More megapixels, lower ISO range, but I believe the dynamic range is a bit better. Check out the backs from Hasselblad, Phase One, Sinar and Leaf. Basically you'd best be making serious $$$'s from the camera or else be so rich you can afford to drop $40-60k on a toy. Even if you can afford one something like one of the Mamiya 645 camera's is likely to be a better target for the back, since I think they're about the only thing you can get a full frame back on. What would be interesting is to build a large format camera around a scanner (people have done that). What would be even more interesting is someone doing a kit for this. :-) I'll stick with film for the foreseeable future. If I get the chance to pick one up cheap enough I'll think about it. I recently passed on a 6MP back for $600 that I could have used on my Hasselblad and 4x5 camera, but only tethered to a vintage Macbook. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From g-wright at att.net Fri Nov 6 01:12:10 2009 From: g-wright at att.net (g-wright at att.net) Date: Fri, 06 Nov 2009 07:12:10 +0000 Subject: HP 900/300 with HPUX and Windows ??? info needed Message-ID: <110620090712.20846.4AF3CC49000B3AB50000516E22218801869B0A02D29B9B0EBF9B0809079D99D309@att.net> I have a couple of HP 9000/300 series computers with HP 7953 drives and Intel processor cards in the computers. These have both HPUX and Windows on the same drive. It looks like the Windows file system shares the HPUX file system on these ?? What I want to do is backup the drives. Just want to make sure I get it all. If I do a "ls" under HPUX it shows both the HPUX and Windows files and directories. Along the same lines,does anyone have early HPUX tapes. I would like to come up with 9.x and earlier. I have backups of drives but no way to get the backup on to a drive that has failed. Thanks, Jerry From jkjamestown at verizon.net Thu Nov 5 16:02:48 2009 From: jkjamestown at verizon.net (John Hornung) Date: Thu, 05 Nov 2009 17:02:48 -0500 Subject: Query as to Frieden calculator value Message-ID: <5DA6280D52CA4E40A7502E9965290B5E@SnakePC> I don't have any information on the value of the SBT10. However, I am interested on buying one. John Hornung From jeffj at panix.com Fri Nov 6 01:46:34 2009 From: jeffj at panix.com (Jeff Jonas) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2009 02:46:34 -0500 (EST) Subject: I am selling some vintage parts Message-ID: Hi! Jeff Jonas here I'm selling some vintage parts on ebay. This url lists all my current auctions: http://shop.ebay.com/mejeep_demeep_ferret/m.html http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=320444928233 Item number:320444928233 Intel 8080A CPU in IMASI S100 CPU card: MPU-A rev-4 Here's a ceramic Intel C8080A 2975A 2 MHz CPU socketed in an IMSAI CPU CARD, S-100 bus: 1975 IMS ASSOC MPU-A REV 4 http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=320444923473 Item number:320444923473 NOS large Beckman neon panaplex display 8 digit nixie This is a new unused Panaplex-style neon display panel Beckman Kr85 PP450 019 8 digits, each with 7 segments, decimal point and comma. The flying leads are firmly attached to the edge. NO SPECIAL SOCKET OR CONNECTORS NEEDED! Digits are .7 inch tall, the 8 digits are 5 inches wide! http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=320443614849 Item number:320443614849 new unused ISE DG8F eightron single digit VFD Here's a new unused ISE DG8F eightron VFD (vacuum fluorescent display) with flying leads, originally sold as Radio Shack #276-065. It's called the "eightron" for the teeny little segment to the right so the '4' crosses nicer than a 7 segment display. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=320443610650 Item number:320443610650 FNA 30 Archer 276-060 9 digit 7 segment LED module So old, it's now retro! Here's a new, unused FNA 30 Archer Radio Shack #276-060 teeny 9 digit 7 segment LED display module like those used in the early handheld calculators. Yes, those are magnifiers built into the top of the display! No, I'm not giving up on vintage tech. Quite the opposite, I'm focusing on interesting and fun projects and selling things I don't foresee using. Thank you. From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Fri Nov 6 03:20:14 2009 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2009 10:20:14 +0100 Subject: A few classic computer photos In-Reply-To: References: <20091105092432.3cddee94.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <20091106102014.85950cd9.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Thu, 5 Nov 2009 19:51:16 +0000 (GMT) ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > I susepct you'd have to do 3 scans and produce 3 files on the PERQ which > you later combine into the colour image. Yes. This is how the first scanning backs worked. > > thre scans with red, green and blue light... If you have an enlarger > > with dichoritic color head it will be the perfect light source. > Indeed I do. There is one problem. It's a DeVere 504 [...] I know. I own a DeVere 504 too. :-) -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Fri Nov 6 04:20:50 2009 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2009 11:20:50 +0100 Subject: A few classic computer photos In-Reply-To: <4AF3449A.7010707@gmail.com> References: <4AF3449A.7010707@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20091106112050.a7b39ff5.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Thu, 05 Nov 2009 16:33:14 -0500 Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > How good are large format digital backs getting lately? Please note that I am talking about scanning backs. They produce in excess of 100 MegaPixels. There are some special scanning cameras also. Most of the time they are 180 or 360 degree panoramic cameras. If you are talking about non-scanning backs, then you have a 2D CCD as found in conventional digital cameras. Just a bit larger. Most likely it would be better to use a Hasselblad H3 or Leica S2 instead of a 2D CCD on a large format camera. The H3 is at 50 MP IIRC. Today a 2D CCD on a large format camera makes only sense if you absolutely need extreme camera movements. On-topc, i.e. 10+ years, scan backs can do what todays high end 2D CCD can do. -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From ploopster at gmail.com Fri Nov 6 10:12:13 2009 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Fri, 06 Nov 2009 11:12:13 -0500 Subject: A few classic computer photos In-Reply-To: References: <4AF3449A.7010707@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4AF44ADD.3080101@gmail.com> Zane H. Healy wrote: > At 4:33 PM -0500 11/5/09, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >> Tony Duell wrote: >>> Indeed. As I said, I will consider buying a digital camera when it >>> exceeds the quality of my flim cameras. And as yopu may have guessed >>> from >>> my enlarger, I have large format film cameras... >> >> How good are large format digital backs getting lately? > > A Nikon D700 or the equivalent Canon would blow anything away that most > of us with a large format camera could afford. For that matter I can't > afford the CFV-39 back I'd like for my Hasselblad (plus adapters are > available for view cameras). That's not really what I was asking. I meant how good are large format digital backs *now*? I've shot with medium format digital backs, so I'm familiar with those. And I didn't really mention anything about money... Anything available now will be available in a few years for affordable prices. Peace... Sridhar From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Nov 6 10:03:04 2009 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2009 09:03:04 -0700 Subject: A few classic computer photos In-Reply-To: <4AF44ADD.3080101@gmail.com> References: <4AF3449A.7010707@gmail.com> <4AF44ADD.3080101@gmail.com> Message-ID: At 11:12 AM -0500 11/6/09, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >Zane H. Healy wrote: >>At 4:33 PM -0500 11/5/09, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >>>How good are large format digital backs getting lately? >> >>A Nikon D700 or the equivalent Canon would blow anything away that most >>of us with a large format camera could afford. For that matter I can't >>afford the CFV-39 back I'd like for my Hasselblad (plus adapters are >>available for view cameras). > >That's not really what I was asking. I meant how good are large >format digital backs *now*? I've shot with medium format digital >backs, so I'm familiar with those. And I didn't really mention >anything about money... > >Anything available now will be available in a few years for affordable prices. What I'd like to know is what backs offer a larger sensor size than the medium format backs. The "Better Light" scanning backs look to be 3"x4", and are the largest I've been able to find. Just about every back I've seen will work on various MF and LF cameras depending on the adapter used. The real purpose of putting one on a LF back seems to get the camera movements. I can't help but wonder if a better purchase wouldn't be a drum scanner. For me personally a digital back for my 4x5 doesn't make sense, as I need negatives, not digital images for what I have it for. OTOH, a good digital back for my Hasselblad might make sense, if nothing else if the price was right and the specs were good enough, it would be fun to play with. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From arcarlini at iee.org Fri Nov 6 12:55:09 2009 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2009 18:55:09 -0000 Subject: A few classic computer photos In-Reply-To: <4AF44ADD.3080101@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5FA4D027C61E4B80A1A388F8CBA1E901@ANTONIOPC> cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org wrote: > Anything available now will be available in a few years for affordable > prices. I like that attitude. I saw a system with 48GB of RAM being tested today :-) Antonio From woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net Fri Nov 6 13:41:22 2009 From: woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net (Dave Woyciesjes) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2009 14:41:22 -0500 Subject: No subject Message-ID: -- --- David Woyciesjes --- Yale University ITS Service Desk --- Science Park Bldg. 25 --- 150 Munson St --- New Haven, CT 06519 --- (203) 432-9000 From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Nov 6 13:48:33 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2009 14:48:33 -0500 Subject: In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9BB7C1C8-562D-4101-85DF-C5B82514904E@neurotica.com> Gezundheit. -Dave On Nov 6, 2009, at 2:41 PM, Dave Woyciesjes wrote: > > > -- > --- David Woyciesjes > --- Yale University ITS Service Desk > --- Science Park Bldg. 25 > --- 150 Munson St > --- New Haven, CT 06519 > --- (203) 432-9000 -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Nov 6 14:00:54 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2009 15:00:54 -0500 Subject: In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Nov 6, 2009 at 2:41 PM, Dave Woyciesjes wrote: > > > -- > --- David Woyciesjes > --- Yale University ITS Service Desk > --- Science Park Bldg. 25 > --- 150 Munson St > --- New Haven, CT 06519 > --- (203) 432-9000 Way more interesting and on topic than the photography thread. -- Will From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Nov 6 14:31:02 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2009 20:31:02 +0000 (GMT) Subject: A few classic computer photos In-Reply-To: <200911052046.nA5KkUwd023159@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> from "Dennis Boone" at Nov 5, 9 03:46:30 pm Message-ID: > > > For obvious reasons I've never needed one :-) > > :) > > > Exaktas are not hard to work on yourself if you feel like it. You'll > > need watchmaker's screwdrivers and a pair of non-magnetic tweezers[1], > > but not much else. If you want to have a go, I'll dig out the nearest > > model I have an talkyou through at least getting the shutter out of the > > bodyshell. There is osmething in one of Tomosy's books on dismantling > > the Exakta, I can check to see which one if you want to try to find it. > > I'm not entirely comfortable with precision mechanicals, but I may break I often forget that not everyone had a mis-spent childhood... > down and have a go. Are you familiar with Miles Upton's book? Not I've never come across it. Do you have a title? Tomosy's books are good in places (and worth reading), but I don't think they go far enough in some areas. OK if you have some experience anyway, prob.ably not so good for a total begionner. > cheap, but if it's as good as some people think, might be worth it. > > I'm pretty sure I don't want to do curtains myself. It's a nasty job to get them running true... > > It'll be a bit before I have time to dive into this project, so don't go > digging just yet. OK... Let me know when you need help (that does not mean after you've undone every visible screw and the bits of the slow speed escapement are acattered around the room...).. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Nov 6 14:34:28 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2009 20:34:28 +0000 (GMT) Subject: A few classic computer photos In-Reply-To: <97AF4B9C-900F-425E-A65A-79B29E16709B@mac.com> from "Roger Pugh" at Nov 5, 9 08:47:56 pm Message-ID: > > -tony > pentax 110's are such a fine example of Japanese engineering. I think if you asked me to pick my favourite 2 Japanese cameras, they would be (for very different reasons) the Nikon F and the Olympus Pen FT > > I have two VP's. one black one chrome > exakta 11a's and b's and a VX1000.. And behind them are the > Periflex's another unusual design! Would it suprise you to learn that I have a couple of Periflexes... I've always thought they're more like a rangefinder camera than a refiex camerra in that the little 'periscope' is used for focussing only, not viewind (it doesn't show the whole frame.. There is a separate viewfinder, which you have to adapt for different focal length lense (like a rangefinder camera, rather than an SLR). -tony From drb at msu.edu Fri Nov 6 15:32:46 2009 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Fri, 06 Nov 2009 16:32:46 -0500 Subject: A few classic computer photos In-Reply-To: (Your message of Fri, 06 Nov 2009 20:31:02 GMT.) References: Message-ID: <200911062132.nA6LWkjx005202@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > I often forget that not everyone had a mis-spent childhood... _How_ one mis-spent it seems to be key. > > down and have a go. Are you familiar with Miles Upton's book? Not > I've never come across it. Do you have a title? "Ultimate Exakta Repair". Self published. http://www.exaktaphile.com/vx2ar/book.html > Tomosy's books are good in places (and worth reading), but I don't think > they go far enough in some areas. OK if you have some experience anyway, > prob.ably not so good for a total begionner. I'll have a look at those, then. > OK... Let me know when you need help (that does not mean after you've > undone every visible screw and the bits of the slow speed escapement are > acattered around the room...).. Thanks! :) Note that I said "not entirely comfortable", not "flipping lunatic lacking basic technical clue". De From lynchaj at yahoo.com Fri Nov 6 15:42:28 2009 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2009 16:42:28 -0500 Subject: S-100 IDE project Message-ID: <5CA8C192AC984F8CA86515A685D27249@andrewdesktop> Hi! My good friend John and I are working on a joint www.S100Computers.com & N8VEM S-100 IDE project. It is based on the following design by Peter Faasse. http://www.pjrc.com/tech/8051/ide/wesley.html John built a working prototype and some software and I am making a PCB. The PCB is in trace route optimizing phase now. I can't say exactly when a PCB will be available but if you think you might be interested please let me know. PCBs will probably cost *about* $22 give or take some plus shipping. If you do want a PCB it is important you tell me beforehand so I can include it in the manufacturing order. The board will connect to regular IDE devices and includes mounting areas and interfaces for laptop (2.5" with the high density 44 pin connector) and CF adapters. John has his prototype working with a CF adapter mounted on the PCB and it seems to work fine. Thanks and have a nice day! Andrew Lynch From rogpugh at mac.com Fri Nov 6 16:01:53 2009 From: rogpugh at mac.com (Roger Pugh) Date: Fri, 06 Nov 2009 22:01:53 +0000 Subject: A few classic computer photos In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > > Would it suprise you to learn that I have a couple of Periflexes... > I've > always thought they're more like a rangefinder camera than a refiex > camerra in that the little 'periscope' is used for focussing only, not > viewind (it doesn't show the whole frame.. There is a separate > viewfinder, which you have to adapt for different focal length lense > (like a rangefinder camera, rather than an SLR). > > -tony Tony it is of no surprise.. After following numerous posts i have gathered you have probably the UK's largest collection of interesting bits and pieces and could easily trump my feeble collection!! LOL of course, you forgot to mention the periflex's innovative and cheap glass film back! I met Sir Ken Corfield a few years back.. a very interesting bloke! Roger From caveguy at sbcglobal.net Fri Nov 6 16:16:06 2009 From: caveguy at sbcglobal.net (Bob Bradlee) Date: Fri, 06 Nov 2009 17:16:06 -0500 Subject: S-100 IDE project In-Reply-To: <5CA8C192AC984F8CA86515A685D27249@andrewdesktop> Message-ID: <124829.43835.qm@smtp124.sbc.mail.re3.yahoo.com> How are you getting around the 8meg max drive size common with CPM ? Are you splitting it into many small drives in hardware on in the driver like Morows dod for the M26 ? I have an old MPM system that had an M26 on it I would like to bring back to life. The other Bob On Fri, 6 Nov 2009 16:42:28 -0500, Andrew Lynch wrote: >Hi! My good friend John and I are working on a joint www.S100Computers.com & >N8VEM S-100 IDE project. It is based >on the following design by Peter Faasse. >http://www.pjrc.com/tech/8051/ide/wesley.html >John built a working prototype and some software and I am making a PCB. The >PCB is in trace route optimizing phase now. I can't say exactly when a PCB >will be available but if you think you might be interested please let me >know. PCBs will probably cost *about* $22 give or take some plus shipping. >If you do want a PCB it is important you tell me beforehand so I can include >it in the manufacturing order. >The board will connect to regular IDE devices and includes mounting areas >and interfaces for laptop (2.5" with the high density 44 pin connector) and >CF adapters. John has his prototype working with a CF adapter mounted on the >PCB and it seems to work fine. >Thanks and have a nice day! >Andrew Lynch From jdbryan at acm.org Sat Nov 7 00:49:54 2009 From: jdbryan at acm.org (J. David Bryan) Date: Sat, 07 Nov 2009 01:49:54 -0500 Subject: HP 900/300 with HPUX and Windows ??? info needed In-Reply-To: <110620090712.20846.4AF3CC49000B3AB50000516E22218801869B0A02D29B9B0EBF9B0809079D99D309@att.net> References: <110620090712.20846.4AF3CC49000B3AB50000516E22218801869B0A02D29B9B0EBF9B0809079D99D309@att.net> Message-ID: On Friday, November 6, 2009 at 7:12, g-wright at att.net wrote: > What I want to do is backup the drives. Just want to make sure I get it > all. If the drive is HP-IB, and you have a Windows PC and a GPIB card, the HPDir utility will do what you want: http://www.hp9845.net/9845/projects/hpdir/ It can do a block-by-block copy of the entire drive to an image file on the PC, or vice-versa. -- Dave From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Sat Nov 7 01:10:47 2009 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Fri, 06 Nov 2009 23:10:47 -0800 Subject: Looking for multibus ethernet card (For Sun 2/120) Message-ID: <4AF51D77.8040209@mail.msu.edu> Got the fun parts of a Sun 2/120 workstation (a backplane and 2 sets of CPU, Memory, FPA and SCSI boards -- anyone have a spare Sun 2 chassis? :)) in a trade with another generous list member, and I've kind of got it running on my bench here... I'd like to get it connected to the Internet at some point. I'm looking for a 3Com 3c400 multibus ethernet interface... anyone have one spare to sell/trade? Thanks as always, Josh From geoffr at zipcon.net Sat Nov 7 02:49:06 2009 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoffrey Reed) Date: Sat, 07 Nov 2009 00:49:06 -0800 Subject: Atari Disk Drives... Message-ID: This is the way we burn the roms (now to find some MCM6810 or compatible rams and upgrade the ram in my old 1050 non double density) and make a US doubler compatible 1050. Copied the rom from my other USDblr 1050, and need to make the piggyback ram. ?course my DD 1050 needs new ram, it?s damaged too :( From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Sat Nov 7 06:12:13 2009 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Sat, 7 Nov 2009 13:12:13 +0100 Subject: HP monitor and keyboard available Message-ID: Hi all, whilst cleaning out, I found an HP monitor with accompanying keyboard. A label on the keyboard reads C1400A (?) and on the monitor is a label that says 700/92 and 1001G. They are in working order, the screen lights up green, characters are sharp, so the CRT is fine. I guess that it will be local pick up only in Helmond, The Netherlands. Shipping in The Netherlands will probably cost just 6.75 euro, but outside the country will get too expensive. I am willing to ship it though, just hate to trash it, but that's going to happen in a week, if nobody wants it. - Henk. From curt at atarimuseum.com Sat Nov 7 08:50:17 2009 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Sat, 07 Nov 2009 09:50:17 -0500 Subject: Atari Disk Drives... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4AF58929.4000107@atarimuseum.com> There are a couple of sites still selling these and I could swear someone had done a new PCB design with modern parts someplace: http://cgi.ebay.com/US-Doubler-Upgrade-Atari-1050-800-XL-XE-ICD_W0QQitemZ140345684503QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item20ad413217&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14 Curt Geoffrey Reed wrote: > This is the way we burn the roms (now to find some MCM6810 or compatible > rams and upgrade the ram in my old 1050 non double density) and make a US > doubler compatible 1050. Copied the rom from my other USDblr 1050, and need > to make the piggyback ram. ?course my DD 1050 needs new ram, it?s damaged > too :( > > From lynchaj at yahoo.com Sat Nov 7 08:59:11 2009 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Sat, 7 Nov 2009 09:59:11 -0500 Subject: design rules for classic computer PCB projects Message-ID: Hi! I've been doing some PCB design work for various classic computer projects and would like to discuss and hear some advice from experienced PCB designers regarding design rules. What design rules do you normally use for vintage and/or classic PCB projects? Clearly the design rules depend on the application and technology involved. Normally, my projects are in the style typically from the late 1970's and early 1980's style technologies such as PC/XT ISA bus, ECB, S-100, etc. The components are typically 74LSxxx TTL DIP parts meant for easy and reliable construction. There are no SMT components or very high frequency signals. My typical starting design rules are 17 mil traces for signal, 51 mil traces for power (VCC and GND), air gap (min clearance) of 11 mils. Grid size varies depending but usually is 25 mils although I prefer 50 mils. Component pads are typically 55 mils diameter with a 32 mil hole. Connector pads are 60 mils diameter with a 40 mil hole. These parameters allow for a single trace to be routed through the pins of a typical device. Vias are 45 mils in diameter with a 25 mil hole. There are no blind or micro vias allowed since all of my projects are use 2 layer PCBs. Normally the signals for my projects are in the range of 1-8 MHz. Occasionally there is signal as much as 16 MHz clock but those are few. The harmonic content would contain higher frequencies since this is almost entirely digital circuitry and square waves are prevalent. I aggressively review and optimize the PCB layout and trace routing to minimize vias and overall trace length. This phase can be very time consuming but I think it is worth it. Of primary concern to me is trace length due to legacy busses, board density, size, and mainly using 74LSxxx technology. I've found longer traces can result in greater impedance for both signal and power which can interfere with proper operation. As a result I am using the 17 mil signal traces and 51 mil power traces to minimize impedance and the resulting voltage drops. Long traces can also have other effects which can raise havoc on digital circuits. Solid power supply rails is important so when I think a design is going may use a lot of power I specify 2 oz copper weights although for most PCBs it is only 1 oz. The wide signal and power traces are where I think my designs might be overly conservative. The really old PCBs I have seen are as much as 20 mil signal traces but most recent PCBs are less and around 10 mils and sometimes smaller. Minimizing switching transients is important so I normally place a 0.1 uF bypass monolithic ceramic capacitor per IC. Normally there is a larger 22 uF electrolytic or tantalum bypass capacitor placed across the main VCC to GND supply rails at the entry point to the PCB. So far the PCBs have turned out to be fairly reliable and easy to build. There have been a couple of errors but those are cases of where signal or power traces were either connected wrong or left off entirely due to EDA library problems. Things seem to be working fine although I am curious as to what other designers are using and why. I would like to improve my projects to make them the best possible and if there are ways to reduce trace length and minimize the number of vias. There are some sources of information on the internet regarding PCB design but much of the recent material is focused on SMT, low power, and/or very high frequency components. Often times I see trace widths less than 8 mils which to me seem quite hazardous. Here is a good link for some discussion on how to design a PCB for reliable manufacturing. It is about the right age for the projects I like to work on and the design rules are fairly consistent with mine but not exactly. I tend to be a bit more conservative with regard to larger trace width than the author. http://www.pic101.com/using_tango.htm Thanks in advance for any advice and/or insight on proper PCB design. I appreciate your thoughts and comments. Please no flames, this is intended to be a serious and on topic question. If you are going to change the topic please make a new subject. Thanks and have a nice day! Andrew Lynch From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sat Nov 7 10:05:25 2009 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sat, 7 Nov 2009 08:05:25 -0800 Subject: design rules for classic computer PCB projects In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: ---------------------------------------- > From: lynchaj at yahoo.com > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: design rules for classic computer PCB projects > Date: Sat, 7 Nov 2009 09:59:11 -0500 > > Hi! I've been doing some PCB design work for various classic computer > projects and would like to discuss and hear some advice from experienced PCB > designers regarding design rules. > > > > What design rules do you normally use for vintage and/or classic PCB > projects? > > > > Clearly the design rules depend on the application and technology involved. > Normally, my projects are in the style typically from the late 1970's and > early 1980's style technologies such as PC/XT ISA bus, ECB, S-100, etc. The > components are typically 74LSxxx TTL DIP parts meant for easy and reliable > construction. There are no SMT components or very high frequency signals. > > > Hi Cross talk through traces and ground bounce are to be avoided. Learning which crosstalks are most damaging is important. Two data bus signals that switch at the same time surprisingly don't need as much sheilding as a data bus signal and a write strobe signal. These signals switch at diffent times. The write signal switches when it is often critical that the data bus signal be stable. There are problems with a lot of signals switching at the same time but this is more related to speeding up or slowing the propagation of the signals. Use care when looking at ground and power traces. This is especially difficult for two layer boards. Coupling capacitors at the ends of power traces are not usually as good as those place at the centers of traces. Having alternate coupling across and then between power strips is a good idea. Try to keep power as clean as possible around chip that hold state ( flops and latches ). Keep runs of clock signals as short as possible. Avoid mixing clocks and data signal in the same chips. I know it is tempting to use every bit of your 7404 but the chips don't cost that much. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Bing brings you maps, menus, and reviews organized in one place. http://www.bing.com/search?q=restaurants&form=MFESRP&publ=WLHMTAG&crea=TEXT_MFESRP_Local_MapsMenu_Resturants_1x1 From lynchaj at yahoo.com Sat Nov 7 12:37:05 2009 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Sat, 7 Nov 2009 13:37:05 -0500 Subject: S-100 IDE project Message-ID: <1BF2D014CAEA4E5CAE18475C6E897912@andrewdesktop> Reply to http://classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/2009-November/278452.html Hi! John has some CBIOS software for CP/M 3.0 based on his system. I do not know what the maximum drive size is but on the N8VEM DiskIO board CBIOS for CP/M 2.2 the maximum size is 8MB. I believe the 8MB limit also applies to the S-100 IDE board. At least in theory you could implement your own CBIOS extensions for partitions and the like. We are doing something akin to that on the N8VEM project for the SBC DiskIO CBIOS. However that is a completely separate project from this board. Anyone who gets one of these S-100 IDE boards would have to integrate it into their CP/M system using the PCB, the schematics, and the example code. No further support is offered. As John wisely says on comp.os.cpm "Please note these would be bare cards, a schematic and that's it. Building the board and implementing CPM etc., you are on your own. This is not a project for first timers." There you have it -- Caveat Emptor. Thanks and have a nice day! Andrew Lynch How are you getting around the 8meg max drive size common with CPM ? Are you splitting it into many small drives in hardware on in the driver like Morows dod for the M26 ? I have an old MPM system that had an M26 on it I would like to bring back to life. The other Bob On Fri, 6 Nov 2009 16:42:28 -0500, Andrew Lynch wrote: >Hi! My good friend John and I are working on a joint www.S100Computers.com & >N8VEM S-100 IDE project. It is based >on the following design by Peter Faasse. >http://www.pjrc.com/tech/8051/ide/wesley.html >John built a working prototype and some software and I am making a PCB. The >PCB is in trace route optimizing phase now. I can't say exactly when a PCB >will be available but if you think you might be interested please let me >know. PCBs will probably cost *about* $22 give or take some plus shipping. >If you do want a PCB it is important you tell me beforehand so I can include >it in the manufacturing order. >The board will connect to regular IDE devices and includes mounting areas >and interfaces for laptop (2.5" with the high density 44 pin connector) and >CF adapters. John has his prototype working with a CF adapter mounted on the >PCB and it seems to work fine. >Thanks and have a nice day! >Andrew Lynch From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Nov 7 12:21:59 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 7 Nov 2009 18:21:59 +0000 (GMT) Subject: A few classic computer photos In-Reply-To: <200911062132.nA6LWkjx005202@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> from "Dennis Boone" at Nov 6, 9 04:32:46 pm Message-ID: > > > I often forget that not everyone had a mis-spent childhood... > > _How_ one mis-spent it seems to be key. Err, yes... Perhaps it's not suprising I will ahve ago at repairing just about anything, I was taking things apart _and getting them back together_ long before I went to school. I think I have said I got my first mains shock before the age of 2. Not in the normal way of sticking soming up a lampholder or into a socket, but by unscrewing a socket from the wall to see what was behind it. Hmmm I guess that's why classic computers interest me. You can take them apart, understand them and repair them. > > > > down and have a go. Are you familiar with Miles Upton's book? Not > > > I've never come across it. Do you have a title? > > "Ultimate Exakta Repair". Self published. > http://www.exaktaphile.com/vx2ar/book.html OK, I will look into this. > > > Tomosy's books are good in places (and worth reading), but I don't think > > they go far enough in some areas. OK if you have some experience anyway, > > prob.ably not so good for a total begionner. > > I'll have a look at those, then. I've come across 6 of them. 2 general books ('Camera Maintenance and Repair'), 'Restoring classic and collectable cameras' (I think this is the one that mentiones the Exakta), 'Repairign the great collectable cameras [1]' and 2 manufacturer-specific books (Leica and Nikon). [1] This one was dangerous in my hands. It covers cameras from 1945 onwards, many of which are still avaialbe at low prices. I started collecting them... > > OK... Let me know when you need help (that does not mean after you've > > undone every visible screw and the bits of the slow speed escapement are > > acattered around the room...).. > > Thanks! :) Note that I said "not entirely comfortable", not "flipping > lunatic lacking basic technical clue". OK :-). The Exakta is friendly in that there are no screws hidden under the leatherette covering, but unfriendly in that many of the screws holding down cotnrols (certainly the 2 speed dials) have springs under them, and parts will fly if you're not careful. One other thing I've just rememebred. If you want to pull the shutter mechanism out of the bodyshell (and most of the time you do), you should remove 2 ofthe 3 flash sockets on most models. They unscrew, and the tool you need to turn them is the tool used to remove/fit the stem on a pocket watch. Not something most people have in their toolkit... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Nov 7 12:27:43 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 7 Nov 2009 18:27:43 +0000 (GMT) Subject: A few classic computer photos In-Reply-To: from "Roger Pugh" at Nov 6, 9 10:01:53 pm Message-ID: [Me owning Periflexs] > Tony it is of no surprise.. After following numerous posts i have > gathered you have probably the UK's largest collection of interesting > bits and pieces and could easily trump my feeble collection!! LOL I am not so sure abotu that. So far I don't own a mainframe or a real supercomputer (OK, I do have a 370 hardware emulator and a DAP, but they're minor...) I tend to be soemthing of a squirrel. If I see something that looks interesting being given away or at a cheap price I buy it, even if I have no immediate use for it. I spotted a Umatic reel height gauge in a charity shop, it came home with me. I didn't have a Umatic machine at the time, but I thought 'That's going to be useful sometime'. And it was. I have add-ons for machines I don't yet own simply because I will probably find them one day. -tony From curt at atarimuseum.com Sat Nov 7 13:14:35 2009 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Sat, 07 Nov 2009 14:14:35 -0500 Subject: Speaking of S-100 IDE project --- I have a Corvus S-100 manual & driver listing In-Reply-To: <1BF2D014CAEA4E5CAE18475C6E897912@andrewdesktop> References: <1BF2D014CAEA4E5CAE18475C6E897912@andrewdesktop> Message-ID: <4AF5C71B.5020504@atarimuseum.com> Anyone out there looking for the Manual and driver listing for a Corvus HD interface, I have an original manual available for trade... Curt From hachti at hachti.de Sat Nov 7 13:47:43 2009 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Sat, 07 Nov 2009 20:47:43 +0100 Subject: DEC X8 pdp8 exerciser? Message-ID: <4AF5CEDF.8090903@hachti.de> Hi folks, I've heard of something called "DEC X8", a modular pdp8 exerciser. Does someone have this? I don't have it and I've been further told that it can be used to run acceptance tests on pdp8 without the need for all that little maindecs... Best wishes, Philipp From geoffr at zipcon.net Sat Nov 7 16:47:13 2009 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoffrey Reed) Date: Sat, 07 Nov 2009 14:47:13 -0800 Subject: Atari Disk Drives... In-Reply-To: <4AF58929.4000107@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: Haven't come across the pcb with modern parts yet, I've emailed a place that claims to have the 6810's at < 4 per chip, but they are slow in responding to requests and if they do have it, they ship via carrier pigeon so it will take half of forever to get here. I know there are a few sites that are selling these, and other ones like the happy board, but I have eproms a plenty, and although the US-Doubler is fairly reasonably priced, and I'm on a fairly tight toy budget I'd rather build it myself if I can. And since my other USD 1050 is currently down with blown ram, I need to get some 6810's anyways to fix it... Dropped in the original 1050 rom, reset the jumpers and put the 1 known good 6810 I have into it and it worked fine, just no DD. On 11/7/09 6:50 AM, "Curt @ Atari Museum" wrote: > There are a couple of sites still selling these and I could swear > someone had done a new PCB design with modern parts someplace: > > > http://cgi.ebay.com/US-Doubler-Upgrade-Atari-1050-800-XL-XE-ICD_W0QQitemZ14034 > 5684503QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item20ad413217&_trksid=p3286 > .c0.m14 > > > > > Curt > > > > Geoffrey Reed wrote: >> This is the way we burn the roms (now to find some MCM6810 or compatible >> rams and upgrade the ram in my old 1050 non double density) and make a US >> doubler compatible 1050. Copied the rom from my other USDblr 1050, and need >> to make the piggyback ram. ?course my DD 1050 needs new ram, it?s damaged >> too :( >> >> > From glen.slick at gmail.com Sat Nov 7 19:20:42 2009 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Sat, 7 Nov 2009 17:20:42 -0800 Subject: Atari Disk Drives... In-Reply-To: References: <4AF58929.4000107@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <1e1fc3e90911071720u791a3078s53b4e9f825bf67ac@mail.gmail.com> On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 2:47 PM, Geoffrey Reed wrote: > Haven't come across the pcb with modern parts yet, I've emailed a place that > claims to have the 6810's at < 4 per chip, but they are slow in responding > to requests and if they do have it, they ship via carrier pigeon so it will > take half of forever to get here. > The 6810 is listed for $2.79 here if you need enough parts for the $25 minimum order. http://www.unicornelectronics.com/ I haven't bought anything from them in a while. Had good results the last time. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sat Nov 7 19:53:03 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 7 Nov 2009 20:53:03 -0500 Subject: Atari Disk Drives... In-Reply-To: <1e1fc3e90911071720u791a3078s53b4e9f825bf67ac@mail.gmail.com> References: <4AF58929.4000107@atarimuseum.com> <1e1fc3e90911071720u791a3078s53b4e9f825bf67ac@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 11/7/09, Glen Slick wrote: > On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 2:47 PM, Geoffrey Reed wrote: >> Haven't come across the pcb with modern parts yet, I've emailed a place >> that >> claims to have the 6810's at < 4 per chip, but they are slow in responding >> to requests and if they do have it, they ship via carrier pigeon so it >> will >> take half of forever to get here. >> > > The 6810 is listed for $2.79 here if you need enough parts for the $25 > minimum order. > > http://www.unicornelectronics.com/ > > I haven't bought anything from them in a while. Had good results the last > time. Unicorn is good. B.G. Micro also has them http://www.bgmicro.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=12933 ... but buying one of anything from anyone is going to hit you on the shipping as much as the part. I've also seen those same SRAMs on a few other things - mostly 6800 designs, but a few older, smaller, 6502-based peripherals. -ethan From ajp166 at verizon.net Sat Nov 7 21:35:46 2009 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Sat, 07 Nov 2009 22:35:46 -0500 Subject: S-100 IDE project In-Reply-To: <124829.43835.qm@smtp124.sbc.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <124829.43835.qm@smtp124.sbc.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4AF63C92.4010209@verizon.net> Bob's right. The CP/M 2 logical drive size limit is 8mb, however there are up to 16 possible logical drives making the physical drive size 128mb. Now that is a basic limit. There is nothing to say you can't make partitions mountable either, though the BIOS would have to be written to suitably support that. The CP/M 3 logical drive size limit is 32mb, however there are up to 16 possible logical drives making the drive size 512mb. If you run any of the CP/M 2 improved versions (Zsystem, P2Dos, Novados and friends) that limit is 1gb for a logical drive(note that means the allocation size is 32K and a bit on the large granular side). You still can address 16 drives. Allison Bob Bradlee wrote: > How are you getting around the 8meg max drive size common with CPM ? > Are you splitting it into many small drives in hardware on in the driver > like Morows dod for the M26 ? > I have an old MPM system that had an M26 on it I would like to bring back to life. > > The other Bob > > > On Fri, 6 Nov 2009 16:42:28 -0500, Andrew Lynch wrote: > > >> Hi! My good friend John and I are working on a joint www.S100Computers.com & >> N8VEM S-100 IDE project. It is based >> on the following design by Peter Faasse. >> > > >> http://www.pjrc.com/tech/8051/ide/wesley.html >> > > >> John built a working prototype and some software and I am making a PCB. The >> PCB is in trace route optimizing phase now. I can't say exactly when a PCB >> will be available but if you think you might be interested please let me >> know. PCBs will probably cost *about* $22 give or take some plus shipping. >> If you do want a PCB it is important you tell me beforehand so I can include >> it in the manufacturing order. >> > > >> The board will connect to regular IDE devices and includes mounting areas >> and interfaces for laptop (2.5" with the high density 44 pin connector) and >> CF adapters. John has his prototype working with a CF adapter mounted on the >> PCB and it seems to work fine. >> > > >> Thanks and have a nice day! >> > > >> Andrew Lynch >> > > > > > From thrashbarg at kaput.homeunix.org Sat Nov 7 21:52:26 2009 From: thrashbarg at kaput.homeunix.org (Alexis) Date: Sun, 8 Nov 2009 14:22:26 +1030 Subject: S-100 IDE project In-Reply-To: <5CA8C192AC984F8CA86515A685D27249@andrewdesktop> References: <5CA8C192AC984F8CA86515A685D27249@andrewdesktop> Message-ID: <200911081422.26845.thrashbarg@kaput.homeunix.org> On Sat, 7 Nov 2009 08:12:28 am Andrew Lynch wrote: > Hi! My good friend John and I are working on a joint www.S100Computers.com > & N8VEM S-100 IDE project. It is > based on the following design by Peter Faasse. > > http://www.pjrc.com/tech/8051/ide/wesley.html > I'm using this design on a single board 8088 micro I've built. The bottleneck is horrific, but I can see how it could be useful when I/O space is limited. Later, when I made the IDE interface for my 8080 computer, I wired it directly to the bus with some glue logic, and I ignored the upper eight bits of the 16- bit data bus. Considering I'm using a 120MB hard drive and CP/M has a limit of 8MB I didn't think the wasted space would be much of an issue. 8MB is lots of space for CP/M, especially after I was used to using 320kB floppies. You're welcome to look at the CBIOS too. http://kaput.homeunix.org/~thrashbarg/cbios.asm Alexis. From ragooman at comcast.net Sat Nov 7 22:04:00 2009 From: ragooman at comcast.net (Dan Roganti) Date: Sat, 07 Nov 2009 23:04:00 -0500 Subject: Atari Disk Drives... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4AF64330.3000303@comcast.net> I have boatloads of 6810's here - I salvage them from old pinball ckt bds Send your home addr off-list and I'll drop some in the mail. =Dan Geoffrey Reed wrote: > Haven't come across the pcb with modern parts yet, I've emailed a place that > claims to have the 6810's at < 4 per chip, but they are slow in responding > to requests and if they do have it, they ship via carrier pigeon so it will > take half of forever to get here. > > I know there are a few sites that are selling these, and other ones like the > happy board, but I have eproms a plenty, and although the US-Doubler is > fairly reasonably priced, and I'm on a fairly tight toy budget I'd rather > build it myself if I can. > > And since my other USD 1050 is currently down with blown ram, I need to get > some 6810's anyways to fix it... Dropped in the original 1050 rom, reset > the jumpers and put the 1 known good 6810 I have into it and it worked fine, > just no DD. > > > On 11/7/09 6:50 AM, "Curt @ Atari Museum" wrote: > > >> There are a couple of sites still selling these and I could swear >> someone had done a new PCB design with modern parts someplace: >> >> >> http://cgi.ebay.com/US-Doubler-Upgrade-Atari-1050-800-XL-XE-ICD_W0QQitemZ14034 >> 5684503QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item20ad413217&_trksid=p3286 >> .c0.m14 >> >> >> >> >> Curt >> >> >> >> Geoffrey Reed wrote: >> >>> This is the way we burn the roms (now to find some MCM6810 or compatible >>> rams and upgrade the ram in my old 1050 non double density) and make a US >>> doubler compatible 1050. Copied the rom from my other USDblr 1050, and need >>> to make the piggyback ram. ?course my DD 1050 needs new ram, it?s damaged >>> too :( >>> >>> >>> > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 8.5.425 / Virus Database: 270.14.53/2487 - Release Date: 11/07/09 19:39:00 > > From cclist at sydex.com Sat Nov 7 22:35:44 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 07 Nov 2009 20:35:44 -0800 Subject: S-100 IDE project In-Reply-To: <200911081422.26845.thrashbarg@kaput.homeunix.org> References: <5CA8C192AC984F8CA86515A685D27249@andrewdesktop>, <200911081422.26845.thrashbarg@kaput.homeunix.org> Message-ID: <4AF5DA20.10093.2B25FB7@cclist.sydex.com> While I have nothing but fondness for recollections of CP/M on x80 systems, I've wondered that since memory is cheap, why not resurrect some of the Unix-cousin attempts? I think Morrow was advertising one around 1980 and there were others. I found one here: http://www.dougbraun.com/uzi.html It would seem that if the inode arithmetic could be extended to 24 or 32 bits, you could mount filesystems in the GB range. It might be kind of interesting. FWIW, Chuck From wlsilva at sbcglobal.net Sat Nov 7 22:41:36 2009 From: wlsilva at sbcglobal.net (walter silva) Date: Sat, 7 Nov 2009 20:41:36 -0800 Subject: You can help to solve the greatest mystery of all mankind! Help identify this printer from 1966, hardest item I have ever tried to find information on. Message-ID: <99E0B2FC7252467A916399C104EB66C5@walter> Hello I am trying to identify this rack printer from the time period of 1966. The printer circled in this photo http://www.flickr.com/photos/19997518 at N02/4085043282/ is the unit in question, it was made by "Franklin" , and you can imagine the search results I get when searching for "Franklin printer" EVERYTHING is about Benjamin Franklin. The equipment in the photo is a Delco missile guidance telemetry monitor, I have seen photos of the same printer used in Nasa tracking station equipment from the 1960's, and I know that a aircraft version of the printer was used in military planes of the same time. We are trying to restore a Delco Telemetry console from the 1960's that is missing the Franklin printer, and we would like to try to find one to replace the original. If anyone can provide information about the company that made these printers (I assume they went by the Franklin name) or can ID this actual printer model, it would be off immense help for us, we assume they were a USA company, but that is all I know. I did get to talk with the gentleman that was in charge of the Delco telemetry dept in 1967, and the only information he could recall is that the printer was a impact printer, made by Franklin, and was a high end unit for its day. Thanks to all, and silly prize to anyone who can solve this ! Walter wlsilva at sbcglobal.net From ronald.carlson.54 at sbcglobal.net Sat Nov 7 22:57:52 2009 From: ronald.carlson.54 at sbcglobal.net (Ronald Carlson) Date: Sat, 7 Nov 2009 20:57:52 -0800 (PST) Subject: Heathkit Sweet-P plotter Message-ID: <85665.65456.qm@web80706.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Joe, Saw your message in the archives. I have the Sweet-P documentation, full manual, assembly, programming examples and schematic. Contact me if you still have the Sweet-P. Regards, Ron Carlson From hachti at hachti.de Sun Nov 8 05:33:03 2009 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Sun, 08 Nov 2009 12:33:03 +0100 Subject: Found! In-Reply-To: <4AF5CEDF.8090903@hachti.de> References: <4AF5CEDF.8090903@hachti.de> Message-ID: <4AF6AC6F.9040206@hachti.de> Hi again, I've got an email from Tim Radde. The DEC X8 can be found on an RK05 image at David Gesswein's website: http://www.pdp8.net/ftp/images/os8/diagpack2.rk05 This looks quite complete. There's also a readme file on the disk. Kind regards, Philipp :-) From ajp166 at verizon.net Sun Nov 8 07:30:59 2009 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Sun, 08 Nov 2009 08:30:59 -0500 Subject: S-100 IDE project In-Reply-To: <4AF5DA20.10093.2B25FB7@cclist.sydex.com> References: <5CA8C192AC984F8CA86515A685D27249@andrewdesktop>, <200911081422.26845.thrashbarg@kaput.homeunix.org> <4AF5DA20.10093.2B25FB7@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4AF6C813.7050100@verizon.net> There is a version ported to Z180 of Uzi. that would be the best and most complete starting point. Allison Chuck Guzis wrote: > While I have nothing but fondness for recollections of CP/M on x80 > systems, I've wondered that since memory is cheap, why not resurrect > some of the Unix-cousin attempts? I think Morrow was advertising one > around 1980 and there were others. > > I found one here: > > http://www.dougbraun.com/uzi.html > > It would seem that if the inode arithmetic could be extended to 24 or > 32 bits, you could mount filesystems in the GB range. It might be > kind of interesting. > > FWIW, > Chuck > > > > From ajp166 at verizon.net Sun Nov 8 07:36:29 2009 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Sun, 08 Nov 2009 08:36:29 -0500 Subject: S-100 IDE project In-Reply-To: <200911081422.26845.thrashbarg@kaput.homeunix.org> References: <5CA8C192AC984F8CA86515A685D27249@andrewdesktop> <200911081422.26845.thrashbarg@kaput.homeunix.org> Message-ID: <4AF6C95D.4010505@verizon.net> Alexis wrote: > On Sat, 7 Nov 2009 08:12:28 am Andrew Lynch wrote: > >> Hi! My good friend John and I are working on a joint www.S100Computers.com >> & N8VEM S-100 IDE project. It is >> based on the following design by Peter Faasse. >> >> http://www.pjrc.com/tech/8051/ide/wesley.html >> >> > > I'm using this design on a single board 8088 micro I've built. The bottleneck > is horrific, but I can see how it could be useful when I/O space is limited. > > Later, when I made the IDE interface for my 8080 computer, I wired it directly > to the bus with some glue logic, and I ignored the upper eight bits of the 16- > bit data bus. Considering I'm using a 120MB hard drive and CP/M has a limit of > 8MB I didn't think the wasted space would be much of an issue. 8MB is lots of > space for CP/M, especially after I was used to using 320kB floppies. > > Don't forget that limit is per Logical Drive. You can partition that 120 MB into multiple drives. I have 8 CP/M systems 3 of which are S100 using hard disks minimally 31mb is size. A few are IDE and the latest two are CF (64mb or 8 logical drives). 8Mb does make it far nicer, but a whole drive for C and another for Assembly programming (and so on) is very useful. Allison > You're welcome to look at the CBIOS too. > http://kaput.homeunix.org/~thrashbarg/cbios.asm > > Alexis. > > From alec at sensi.org Sun Nov 8 08:00:19 2009 From: alec at sensi.org (Alexander Voropay) Date: Sun, 8 Nov 2009 17:00:19 +0300 Subject: S-100 IDE project In-Reply-To: <5CA8C192AC984F8CA86515A685D27249@andrewdesktop> References: <5CA8C192AC984F8CA86515A685D27249@andrewdesktop> Message-ID: <347d9b1b0911080600s7aad9fdeu1dc4cf2e2ed52182@mail.gmail.com> Hi! 2009/11/7 Andrew Lynch : > Hi! My good friend John and I are working on a joint www.S100Computers.com & > N8VEM ?S-100 IDE project. It is based > on the following design by Peter Faasse. This 8255 schematik is damn slow since requires about 20..30 commands, time delay loops and massive I/O. The resulting speed is about 10..20 K/s There is better schematic floatind around, which use "shadow" 8-bit latch (273/573) for HI and LO bytes to mux/demux 16-bit IDE bus to 8-bit system bus. It uses _system_ R/W, does not require loops and thus much faster. One example (with lot of links): http://www.hanssummers.com/computers/cpcng/ide/index.htm Another example, with ASCII-ART schematic and CP/M BIOS sources (with Russian comments): http://sensi.org/~svo/scalar/media/w/hdd.zip This scematic gives full I/O bus speed divided by 2 for reading but requres some "pointer magic" for writing and writing is a bit slower. (the LO register at 50H, the HI "shadow" register at 58H) ;write sector SAVE: INR L ; select an ADDR+1 i.e. HI byte MOV A,M OUT 58H ; prepare HI byte _before_ IDE bus transaction DCR L ; return to ADDR i.e. LO byte MOV A,M OUT 50H ; write LO byte and initiate IDE bus transaction INR L INR L JNZ SAVE There is also VCI XTIDE project. They seems use similar schematic with 573 lathes but they does not publish schematic and sources http://wiki.vintage-computer.com/index.php?title=XTIDE_project P.S. Buildind IDE controller for 8-bit is a pandemy like a swine flu... ;) -- -=AV=- From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sun Nov 8 09:51:49 2009 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sun, 8 Nov 2009 07:51:49 -0800 Subject: Atari Disk Drives... In-Reply-To: References: <4AF58929.4000107@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <1e1fc3e90911071720u791a3078s53b4e9f825bf67ac at mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 ---------------------------------------- > Date: Sat=2C 7 Nov 2009 20:53:03 -0500 > Subject: Re: Atari Disk Drives... > From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > On 11/7/09=2C Glen Slick wrote: >> On Sat=2C Nov 7=2C 2009 at 2:47 PM=2C Geoffrey Reed wrote: >>> Haven't come across the pcb with modern parts yet=2C I've emailed a pla= ce >>> that >>> claims to have the 6810's at < 4 per chip=2C but they are slow in respo= nding >>> to requests and if they do have it=2C they ship via carrier pigeon so i= t >>> will >>> take half of forever to get here. >>> >> >> The 6810 is listed for $2.79 here if you need enough parts for the $25 >> minimum order. >> >> http://www.unicornelectronics.com/ >> >> I haven't bought anything from them in a while. Had good results the las= t >> time. > > Unicorn is good. B.G. Micro also has them > > http://www.bgmicro.com/index.asp?PageAction=3DVIEWPROD&ProdID=3D12933 > > ... but buying one of anything from anyone is going to hit you on the > shipping as much as the part. > > I've also seen those same SRAMs on a few other things - mostly 6800 > designs=2C but a few older=2C smaller=2C 6502-based peripherals. > > -ethan Hi Many places carry these. Most places that supply pinball machine parts carry them. I checked the two places I use often for electronics parts around me: Anchor Electronics $1.98 ea JameCo $2.95 ea =20 I suspect that HSC has them as well but they usually sell chips over the counter. All where listed as 1MHz though. Dwight =20 _________________________________________________________________ Windows 7: Unclutter your desktop. http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=3D9690331&ocid=3DPID24727::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:= en-US:WWL_WIN_evergreen:112009= From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Sun Nov 8 16:20:40 2009 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Sun, 08 Nov 2009 14:20:40 -0800 Subject: Getting P4 video to work in a Sun 4/110 Message-ID: <4AF74438.6020102@mail.msu.edu> I've decided to play with some of my older Sun hardware this weekend, it seems :). I have a 4/110 (Sun's first desktop/side Sparc machine) and two P4 video cards -- a CG4 (501-1248) and an MG3 (501-1247). I can't get the 4/110 to see either of them. Running boot diagnostics shows it probing for a card in the P4 slot but not finding anything. I've hooked the CG4 up to a monitor and the monitor syncs with it and displays a blank screen, so it's getting power and doing something, but for some reason the machine won't see it. Any ideas? Thanks as always... Josh From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sun Nov 8 22:40:01 2009 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sun, 8 Nov 2009 20:40:01 -0800 Subject: Found some AMD bitslice stuff you might want to copy In-Reply-To: <4AF31C4E.5040901@bitsavers.org> References: <4AF2E3DB.2030905@hachti.de> <4AF31C4E.5040901@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: Hi Al Digging in my pile I found the chapters I through VII of "Build a Microcomputer". I seem to recall someone asking about these. I'm not sure if there was anything after VII. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Windows 7: Unclutter your desktop. http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9690331&ocid=PID24727::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WWL_WIN_evergreen:112009 From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Nov 8 23:46:54 2009 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 08 Nov 2009 21:46:54 -0800 Subject: Found some AMD bitslice stuff you might want to copy In-Reply-To: References: <4AF2E3DB.2030905@hachti.de> <4AF31C4E.5040901@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4AF7ACCE.8010805@bitsavers.org> dwight elvey wrote: > > Hi Al > Digging in my pile I found the chapters I through VII > of "Build a Microcomputer". Thanks, but I have these, and the hardbound version. From djg at pdp8online.com Sun Nov 8 21:00:49 2009 From: djg at pdp8online.com (David Gesswein) Date: Sun, 8 Nov 2009 22:00:49 -0500 Subject: DEC X8 pdp8 exerciser? Message-ID: <200911090300.nA930nX28659@h-68-165-246-86.mclnva23.covad.net> > I've got an email from Tim Radde. The DEC X8 can be found on an RK05 > image at David Gesswein's website: > http://www.pdp8.net/ftp/images/os8/diagpack2.rk05 > > This looks quite complete. There's also a readme file on t > The text file refered to says a real manual existed AC-C276E-MA - AXQABE0 DEC/X8 User's Guide Does anybody have a copy of it? http://www.pdp8online.com/pdp8cgi/os8_html/DECX8.TX?act=file;fn=images/os8/diagpack2.rk05;blk=1697,64,1;to=auto http://www.pdp8online.com/images/index.shtml From hachti at hachti.de Mon Nov 9 02:43:03 2009 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Mon, 09 Nov 2009 09:43:03 +0100 Subject: pdp8/a core memory to trade! Ohhhhhh! Message-ID: <4AF7D617.1050208@hachti.de> Hi, I'm kinda out of my head... I bought a pile of Omnibus boards from someone on eBay. Lots of boards for even more money. I got some Dataram core memory modules for pdp8/a. One 8K and three 16K modules. I expected them to be quad wide. I explicitly told the seller that I'd be interested only if they're quad wide. He sent me a photograph of a quad wide Dataram module. And what I got is hex wide. I'm going crazy... I spent all my money on that deal. In the hope to get enough core to fill my pdp8/e and /m. I'm really frustrated. Does anybody have quad wide core memory for Omnibus and wants to trade for pdp8/a memory? Examples: For one "single board" 16K module (not made by DEC) I'll give one 8K and one 16K DataRAM module. For two single board 8K modules (not made by dEC) I'll give one 16K DataRAM module and one H219 8K module. For three DEC 8K module sets, I'll give one 16K DataRAM module and 2 8K H219 modules. For four DEC 4K module sets, I'll give one 8K H219 and one 16K DataRAM module. If there are some larger amounts of 8K modules out there, I'd could throw in a set of pdp8/e CPU boards. Generally, I try to trade 3:2=8a:8e. If someone has something to trade, PLEASE contact me. I'm quite desperate because I spent all my money for the stuff. Best wishes, Philipp P.S.: I could use a single DEC 4K core board as well... From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Mon Nov 9 02:55:48 2009 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2009 09:55:48 +0100 Subject: pdp8/a core memory to trade! Ohhhhhh! In-Reply-To: <4AF7D617.1050208@hachti.de> References: <4AF7D617.1050208@hachti.de> Message-ID: <964DFD58570844E8B1A0A294A6848F1D@xp1800> Philip, Why don't you start a dispute, if he didn't delivered the right goods ? Try to get your money back.. -Rik > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Namens Philipp Hachtmann > Verzonden: maandag 9 november 2009 9:43 > Aan: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Onderwerp: pdp8/a core memory to trade! Ohhhhhh! > > Hi, > > I'm kinda out of my head... I bought a pile of Omnibus boards > from someone on eBay. Lots of boards for even more money. > > I got some Dataram core memory modules for pdp8/a. One 8K and > three 16K modules. I expected them to be quad wide. I > explicitly told the seller that I'd be interested only if > they're quad wide. He sent me a photograph of a quad wide > Dataram module. And what I got is hex wide. > > I'm going crazy... I spent all my money on that deal. In the > hope to get enough core to fill my pdp8/e and /m. I'm really > frustrated. > > Does anybody have quad wide core memory for Omnibus and wants > to trade for pdp8/a memory? > > Examples: > > For one "single board" 16K module (not made by DEC) I'll give > one 8K and one 16K DataRAM module. > > For two single board 8K modules (not made by dEC) I'll give > one 16K DataRAM module and one H219 8K module. > > For three DEC 8K module sets, I'll give one 16K DataRAM > module and 2 8K > H219 modules. > > For four DEC 4K module sets, I'll give one 8K H219 and one > 16K DataRAM module. > > If there are some larger amounts of 8K modules out there, I'd > could throw in a set of pdp8/e CPU boards. > > Generally, I try to trade 3:2=8a:8e. > > > If someone has something to trade, PLEASE contact me. I'm > quite desperate because I spent all my money for the stuff. > > Best wishes, > > Philipp > > P.S.: I could use a single DEC 4K core board as well... > > > > > From halarewich at gmail.com Mon Nov 9 02:58:04 2009 From: halarewich at gmail.com (Chris Halarewich) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2009 00:58:04 -0800 Subject: pdp8/a core memory to trade! Ohhhhhh! In-Reply-To: <4AF7D617.1050208@hachti.de> References: <4AF7D617.1050208@hachti.de> Message-ID: <6d6501090911090058m77edb6c8u8a46c829590e5635@mail.gmail.com> Hello if u went through paypal you should be able to start the process for an "item not as described dispute" and get your money back Chris On 11/9/09, Philipp Hachtmann wrote: > > Hi, > > I'm kinda out of my head... I bought a pile of Omnibus boards from someone > on eBay. Lots of boards for even more money. > > I got some Dataram core memory modules for pdp8/a. One 8K and three 16K > modules. I expected them to be quad wide. I explicitly told the seller that > I'd be interested only if they're quad wide. He sent me a photograph of a > quad wide Dataram module. And what I got is hex wide. > > I'm going crazy... I spent all my money on that deal. In the hope to get > enough core to fill my pdp8/e and /m. I'm really frustrated. > > Does anybody have quad wide core memory for Omnibus and wants to trade for > pdp8/a memory? > > Examples: > > For one "single board" 16K module (not made by DEC) I'll give one 8K and > one 16K DataRAM module. > > For two single board 8K modules (not made by dEC) I'll give one 16K DataRAM > module and one H219 8K module. > > For three DEC 8K module sets, I'll give one 16K DataRAM module and 2 8K > H219 modules. > > For four DEC 4K module sets, I'll give one 8K H219 and one 16K DataRAM > module. > > If there are some larger amounts of 8K modules out there, I'd could throw > in a set of pdp8/e CPU boards. > > Generally, I try to trade 3:2=8a:8e. > > > If someone has something to trade, PLEASE contact me. I'm quite desperate > because I spent all my money for the stuff. > > Best wishes, > > Philipp > > P.S.: I could use a single DEC 4K core board as well... > > > > From hachti at hachti.de Mon Nov 9 04:20:11 2009 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Mon, 09 Nov 2009 11:20:11 +0100 Subject: pdp8/a core memory to trade! Ohhhhhh! In-Reply-To: <6d6501090911090058m77edb6c8u8a46c829590e5635@mail.gmail.com> References: <4AF7D617.1050208@hachti.de> <6d6501090911090058m77edb6c8u8a46c829590e5635@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4AF7ECDB.6080407@hachti.de> Chris Halarewich wrote: > Hello if u went through paypal you should be able to start the process for > an "item not as described dispute" and get your money back The description says only "used pdp8m boards" - and is a result of personal negotiation. I just tested 4 16K modules: Not one is good :-( :-( -- "used" usually doesn't mean "assorted bad stuff" -- as far as I assumed... That's even worse. I don't have schematics for the DataRAM stuff. Don't know if I can get them working again. So this all sums up to a huge $1500+ loss :-( Ph From dseagrav at lunar-tokyo.net Mon Nov 9 04:37:44 2009 From: dseagrav at lunar-tokyo.net (Daniel Seagraves) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2009 04:37:44 -0600 Subject: pdp8/a core memory to trade! Ohhhhhh! In-Reply-To: <4AF7ECDB.6080407@hachti.de> References: <4AF7D617.1050208@hachti.de> <6d6501090911090058m77edb6c8u8a46c829590e5635@mail.gmail.com> <4AF7ECDB.6080407@hachti.de> Message-ID: <1ec10ae830c1d0db18f01fcb51bc2b1d@lunar-tokyo.net> On Nov 9, 2009, at 4:20 AM, Philipp Hachtmann wrote: > That's even worse. I don't have schematics for the DataRAM stuff. > Don't know if I can get them working again. So this all sums up to a > huge $1500+ loss :-( At least you didn't spend $3000 on a car that lasted less than a thousand miles. From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Mon Nov 9 04:42:42 2009 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2009 11:42:42 +0100 Subject: pdp8/a core memory to trade! Ohhhhhh! In-Reply-To: <4AF7ECDB.6080407@hachti.de> References: <4AF7D617.1050208@hachti.de><6d6501090911090058m77edb6c8u8a46c829590e5635@mail.gmail.com> <4AF7ECDB.6080407@hachti.de> Message-ID: And contacting the seller doesn't work I assume........... In that case you should consider naming and shaming the person. This things are bad for the 'classic computer community' you should be able to trust people. It's a bad thing people con you this way. -Rik > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Namens Philipp Hachtmann > Verzonden: maandag 9 november 2009 11:20 > Aan: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Onderwerp: Re: pdp8/a core memory to trade! Ohhhhhh! > > Chris Halarewich wrote: > > Hello if u went through paypal you should be able to start > the process > > for an "item not as described dispute" and get your money back > > The description says only "used pdp8m boards" - and is a > result of personal negotiation. > > I just tested 4 16K modules: Not one is good :-( :-( -- > "used" usually doesn't mean "assorted bad stuff" -- as far as > I assumed... > > That's even worse. I don't have schematics for the DataRAM > stuff. Don't know if I can get them working again. So this > all sums up to a huge $1500+ loss :-( > > Ph > From quapla at xs4all.nl Mon Nov 9 07:40:43 2009 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (Ed Groenenberg) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2009 14:40:43 +0100 Subject: Looking for key of IBM console Message-ID: <57b70257e292c5fad54f126df6ba965a.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Ok, I have this IBM console and I'm looking for the key and possibly some replacement bulb's. The bulbs are some sort of little tubes made of clear plastic, and they contain an even smaller glass bulb. I might be able to open them up and replace them with white or yellow led with a small series resitor, but it looks like it's not that easy to do. See the pic at http://tinyurl.com/yjnt9cn Any other suggestions I could do with it? Ed -- Certified : VCP 3.x, SCSI 3.x SCSA S10, SCNA S10 From caveguy at sbcglobal.net Mon Nov 9 08:33:16 2009 From: caveguy at sbcglobal.net (Bob Bradlee) Date: Mon, 09 Nov 2009 09:33:16 -0500 Subject: Looking for key of IBM console In-Reply-To: <57b70257e292c5fad54f126df6ba965a.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <477526.50630.qm@smtp104.sbc.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> The key toy are looking for is the CE key, it switches the runtime clock over to the "CE" clock in this example CE's worked on this system for 6.6 hours over its lifetime. As for the lights, the 360 lamps do not seat or work properly in a 370 console. 370 lamps do show up on ebay every once in a while. How many do you need and which colors? The other Bob On Mon, 9 Nov 2009 14:40:43 +0100, Ed Groenenberg wrote: >Ok, I have this IBM console and I'm looking for the key and possibly >some replacement bulb's. The bulbs are some sort of little tubes >made of clear plastic, and they contain an even smaller glass bulb. >I might be able to open them up and replace them with white or yellow >led with a small series resitor, but it looks like it's not that easy to do. >See the pic at http://tinyurl.com/yjnt9cn >Any other suggestions I could do with it? >Ed >-- >Certified : VCP 3.x, SCSI 3.x SCSA S10, SCNA S10 From keithvz at verizon.net Mon Nov 9 09:31:43 2009 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith M) Date: Mon, 09 Nov 2009 10:31:43 -0500 Subject: pdp8/a core memory to trade! Ohhhhhh! In-Reply-To: <4AF7D617.1050208@hachti.de> References: <4AF7D617.1050208@hachti.de> Message-ID: <4AF835DF.2010606@verizon.net> Philipp Hachtmann wrote: > I got some Dataram core memory modules for pdp8/a. One 8K and three 16K > modules. I expected them to be quad wide. I explicitly told the seller > that I'd be interested only if they're quad wide. He sent me a > photograph of a quad wide Dataram module. And what I got is hex wide. Philipp, Don't take this lying down. While I've personally had good luck with ebay, there are those people who act less responsibly. I would first contact the seller to see if you work out a deal. If they are uncooperative, start filing "item not as described" complaints as mentioned and do so with ebay and/or paypal. If they don't find in your favor, I'd appeal as far as you can with them. I'm assuming you have name/address of the seller (given to you after the sale completed.) During this whole process you should be documenting each step, when you did it, saving email transactions, etc. In the end, IANAL but you can probably sue them. While I'm sure you could sue them in their jurisdiction (which will probably require a lawyer who has license to operate in that state), you should be able to sue them in your area too. Using long arm statutes, I'd think you could establish minimum contact with an ebay sale. Last but not least, you should definitely tell us who this guy is so that no one else gets screwed. HTH Keith From rollerton at gmail.com Mon Nov 9 09:35:50 2009 From: rollerton at gmail.com (Robert Ollerton) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2009 09:35:50 -0600 Subject: Honeywell Level-6 In-Reply-To: <4AF323A9.3040608@hachti.de> References: <4AEF9FB4.7070803@hachti.de> <2789adda0911021921k2e001778m5a3c4a7e0e331232@mail.gmail.com> <4AF323A9.3040608@hachti.de> Message-ID: <2789adda0911090735h620592f6n47463b236dfe963@mail.gmail.com> in the box not opened since May of 1978 I found: 1. Level 6/06 Marketing brochure. (the 6/06 seems to be a version of the 6/34 with some special I/O option board that emulates the older Honeywell/GE 700 CPU to its I/O bus that was (is) used in RealTime/Control apps., I think). "The System 700 Bus Interface connects the 6/06 Megabus to a System 700 expansion Drawer containing an I/O bus. The System 700 controllers in turn accommodate the peripherals and communications channels with no change to the System 700 DMA software drivers" 2. Level 6 Minicomputer handbook, rev October 1976. Pictures, options, instruction set, memory layout, Bus, etc. 3. Level 6 Minicomputers handbook Models 6/34, 6/36, and 6/43. Rev May 1979. Appears to be reissue and update of #2. 4. Series 60 (Level 6) Hardware MLCP Programmers Reference Manual (The Sync Communicatons IO board), Rev 1976. Ah the book that launched my career... 5. Ever attractive Red/Orange Honeywell 3 ring binder. 6. Box of 8" floppys with my 2780/3780 and Hasp project. I think it even has my Hasp processor written in Cobol! I brought the books with me from Arizona, and can scan what ever you want. Lets go off list for those details at rollerton at gmail.com Best of luck with your find, I recall having a lot of fun that that machine and its OS (BES400 I think it was called). Love to see one of them again. bob. On Thu, Nov 5, 2009 at 1:12 PM, Philipp Hachtmann wrote: > Hi Robert, > >> I worked on a 6/36 back in uh... 1977-78 doing 3780 & HASP, and I have >> a few manuals tucked away, have to look this weekend. > > That sounds good! Looking forward to hear more. > > -- > http://www.hachti.de > From jdr_use at bluewin.ch Mon Nov 9 11:49:24 2009 From: jdr_use at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen) Date: Mon, 09 Nov 2009 18:49:24 +0100 Subject: Found some AMD bitslice stuff you might want to copy In-Reply-To: References: <4AF2E3DB.2030905@hachti.de> <4AF31C4E.5040901@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4AF85624.1070508@bluewin.ch> dwight elvey wrote: > Hi Al > Digging in my pile I found the chapters I through VII > of "Build a Microcomputer". > Speaking of these bitslices : anyone aware of DIY projects involving the AMD2901 ? Jos From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Nov 9 11:58:22 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2009 12:58:22 -0500 Subject: Found some AMD bitslice stuff you might want to copy In-Reply-To: <4AF85624.1070508@bluewin.ch> References: <4AF2E3DB.2030905@hachti.de> <4AF31C4E.5040901@bitsavers.org> <4AF85624.1070508@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: <4B300695-AB07-4F62-8E6F-D4D0164EC7C8@neurotica.com> On Nov 9, 2009, at 12:49 PM, Jos Dreesen wrote: >> Digging in my pile I found the chapters I through VII >> of "Build a Microcomputer". > > Speaking of these bitslices : anyone aware of DIY projects > involving the AMD2901 ? I've wanted to do one for a loooong time but haven't started anything yet. :-( -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From sellam at vintagetech.com Mon Nov 9 13:31:14 2009 From: sellam at vintagetech.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2009 11:31:14 -0800 (PST) Subject: IBM 5151 green phosphor monitors for sale Message-ID: I have a limited number of IBM 5151 monitors for sale. This is the classic green screen monitor that shipped with the basic IBM PC 5150. Condition is adequate. They are dirty but I will clean them up before shipping out. Will test for basic functionality. No burn-in or other problems, but no warranty either. The price is $30 each plus shipping. First come, first served. Please contact me directly via e-mail. Thanks! -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From evan at snarc.net Tue Nov 10 00:10:08 2009 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 01:10:08 -0500 Subject: PC Magazine back issue Message-ID: <4AF903C0.7010104@snarc.net> Anyone have the Nov. 1983 issue of PC Magazine? If so, please email me off-list -- evan at snarc.net. Thanks. From wgungfu at gmail.com Mon Nov 9 23:05:41 2009 From: wgungfu at gmail.com (Martin Goldberg) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2009 23:05:41 -0600 Subject: Computer Equipment I Don't Need Message-ID: <2c768b1e0911092105p70d597a8ibfe86052c62b150d@mail.gmail.com> Located in the Milwaukee, WI area. Looking for offers, trades, whatever, otherwise it's going to recycling - An x-term server by Tektronix, called TekXpress model XP26. Network Computing Devince Inc. x-term, Display Station Model #NCD88K (includes mouse and keyboard). Sparcstation 1 (includes mouse and keyboard). Email me if interested. Marty From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Tue Nov 10 11:10:22 2009 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 11:10:22 -0600 Subject: Shipping a Tek 'scope Message-ID: <4AF99E7E.60503@gmail.com> I'm not reading here much at present, not until I eventually get all my collection moved, but I did just get offered a Tek 545A which is languishing in a garage down in Texas, so figured I'd ask about shipping it safely. Weight seems to be 65lbs according to the manual, but I've not poked any shipping companies yet to see how much it'll cost to get it up here to MN - perhaps it'll end up being just too costly on those grounds. Current owner's happy to pack it for me and drop it off to a shipping company (and apparently they have a Craters and Freighters about 5 miles away from them). Obviously styrofoam "poodle poop" is not a good idea - presumably a higher-density material of some kind would be good, and something that's not going to shift around too much. I wondered about some slabs of that styrofoam stuff they use as house insulation, cut to fit, but maybe that's *too* solid and won't absorb any impacts. Oh, and obviously something softer would be needed on an inner layer to protect all the controls at the front of the 'scope... Do people recommend pulling the tubes/valves and packing and shipping separately, or will they likely be OK in-situ? I'd be doing a strip-down of it anyway (it's not run in a couple of decades) - but with over 100 of them it's a lot of work for the current owner, plus I hate getting stuff already-dismantled and prefer making notes as I disassemble it myself. cheers Jules From steve at radiorobots.com Tue Nov 10 11:45:04 2009 From: steve at radiorobots.com (steve stutman) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 12:45:04 -0500 Subject: Shipping a Tek 'scope In-Reply-To: <4AF99E7E.60503@gmail.com> References: <4AF99E7E.60503@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4AF9A6A0.5000108@radiorobots.com> Craters & Freighters usually does well. They cost more than the UPS store. There are reasons for this. If you bag the equipment, usually you can exclude any packing materials from entering. One issue is that some packing materials outgas corrosive substances. Long term storage in the packing box/crate can be a problem, especially for sockets, contacts, etc. Bench heater survival is probably enhanced by teardown and separated shipping, but have seen a couple shipped via UPS that miraculously survived, due to overpackaging. GL. Jules Richardson wrote: > > I'm not reading here much at present, not until I eventually get all > my collection moved, but I did just get offered a Tek 545A which is > languishing in a garage down in Texas, so figured I'd ask about > shipping it safely. > > Weight seems to be 65lbs according to the manual, but I've not poked > any shipping companies yet to see how much it'll cost to get it up > here to MN - perhaps it'll end up being just too costly on those grounds. > > Current owner's happy to pack it for me and drop it off to a shipping > company (and apparently they have a Craters and Freighters about 5 > miles away from them). Obviously styrofoam "poodle poop" is not a good > idea - presumably a higher-density material of some kind would be > good, and something that's not going to shift around too much. I > wondered about some slabs of that styrofoam stuff they use as house > insulation, cut to fit, but maybe that's *too* solid and won't absorb > any impacts. Oh, and obviously something softer would be needed on an > inner layer to protect all the controls at the front of the 'scope... > > Do people recommend pulling the tubes/valves and packing and shipping > separately, or will they likely be OK in-situ? I'd be doing a > strip-down of it anyway (it's not run in a couple of decades) - but > with over 100 of them it's > a lot of work for the current owner, plus I hate getting stuff > already-dismantled and prefer making notes as I disassemble it myself. > > cheers > > Jules From cclist at sydex.com Tue Nov 10 11:51:08 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 09:51:08 -0800 Subject: Shipping a Tek 'scope In-Reply-To: <4AF99E7E.60503@gmail.com> References: <4AF99E7E.60503@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4AF9378C.26094.5E236D@cclist.sydex.com> On 10 Nov 2009 at 11:10, Jules Richardson wrote: > Current owner's happy to pack it for me and drop it off to a shipping > company (and apparently they have a Craters and Freighters about 5 > miles away from them). Obviously styrofoam "poodle poop" is not a good > idea - presumably a higher-density material of some kind would be > good, and something that's not going to shift around too much. I > wondered about some slabs of that styrofoam stuff they use as house > insulation, cut to fit, but maybe that's *too* solid and won't absorb > any impacts. Oh, and obviously something softer would be needed on an > inner layer to protect all the controls at the front of the 'scope... That's exactly what I use--the pink 1" stuff that comes in 2x8 and 4x8 sheets. It's different from most polystyrene foam--it's extruded, so it doesn't make lots of "sawdust" when you cut it--just score with a utility knife and break. For heavy objects, I use double-walled cardboard boxes and make a box within a box out of the styro foam. Add blocks here and there to keep the object from moving within the box (this is what does the damage--when the object can shift). Between the CRT surface and the styro "wall", I fill a plastic bag with some packing "peanuts" and insert the bag so it's snug, but not tight. A partially-deflated beach ball might work as a shock absorber also--I've used those with large musical instruments. At any rate, I've shipped heavy loads overseas and cross-country with no damage, using plain old UPS ground. --Chuck From IanK at vulcan.com Tue Nov 10 12:55:28 2009 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 10:55:28 -0800 Subject: Shipping a Tek 'scope In-Reply-To: <4AF9378C.26094.5E236D@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4AF99E7E.60503@gmail.com> <4AF9378C.26094.5E236D@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: Another thing I've seen work very well: bubble wrap, the kind with BIG cells. A couple of layers of that wrapped around a unit provides a lot of protection. I agree that removing the tubes would be the best move, but it's also a real pain. Might it be possible to wad up some bubble wrap and place it inside the unit's cabinet? It's been a long time since I've opened up a 545 so I'm not sure how helpful that would be, but it's worth a look. Oh, and congratulations! The 545 is a wonderful old beast. My HP 1741 is smaller, lighter and packed with features, but it's just not the same.... -- Ian > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chuck Guzis > Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2009 9:51 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Shipping a Tek 'scope > > On 10 Nov 2009 at 11:10, Jules Richardson wrote: > > > Current owner's happy to pack it for me and drop it off to a shipping > > company (and apparently they have a Craters and Freighters about 5 > > miles away from them). Obviously styrofoam "poodle poop" is not a > good > > idea - presumably a higher-density material of some kind would be > > good, and something that's not going to shift around too much. I > > wondered about some slabs of that styrofoam stuff they use as house > > insulation, cut to fit, but maybe that's *too* solid and won't absorb > > any impacts. Oh, and obviously something softer would be needed on an > > inner layer to protect all the controls at the front of the 'scope... > > That's exactly what I use--the pink 1" stuff that comes in 2x8 and > 4x8 sheets. It's different from most polystyrene foam--it's > extruded, so it doesn't make lots of "sawdust" when you cut it--just > score with a utility knife and break. > > For heavy objects, I use double-walled cardboard boxes and make a box > within a box out of the styro foam. Add blocks here and there to > keep the object from moving within the box (this is what does the > damage--when the object can shift). Between the CRT surface and the > styro "wall", I fill a plastic bag with some packing "peanuts" and > insert the bag so it's snug, but not tight. A partially-deflated > beach ball might work as a shock absorber also--I've used those with > large musical instruments. > > At any rate, I've shipped heavy loads overseas and cross-country with > no damage, using plain old UPS ground. > > --Chuck > > > > > From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Tue Nov 10 13:04:33 2009 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 19:04:33 +0000 Subject: Shipping a Tek 'scope In-Reply-To: <4AF99E7E.60503@gmail.com> References: <4AF99E7E.60503@gmail.com> Message-ID: I would not strip the unit its built like a tank and will protect the tube. If the tube was separated and in the same outer case the scope body becomes a hammer to smash the tube. Dave Caroline From dholland at woh.rr.com Tue Nov 10 13:19:23 2009 From: dholland at woh.rr.com (David Holland) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 14:19:23 -0500 Subject: Shipping a Tek 'scope In-Reply-To: References: <4AF99E7E.60503@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1257880763.20106.1.camel@crusader.localdomain.home> I'd still stuff the internal open spaces with something (news paper/bubble wrap) so the tubes don't vibrate loose, and start bouncing around the innards.... David On Tue, 2009-11-10 at 19:04 +0000, Dave Caroline wrote: > I would not strip the unit its built like a tank and will protect the > tube. If the tube was separated and in the same outer case the scope > body becomes a hammer to smash the tube. > > Dave Caroline From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Tue Nov 10 13:53:02 2009 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 20:53:02 +0100 Subject: Shipping a Tek 'scope In-Reply-To: References: <4AF99E7E.60503@gmail.com> Message-ID: <2C0B2C9275404D929B93FCB3EAA510B9@xp1800> > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Namens Dave Caroline > Verzonden: dinsdag 10 november 2009 20:05 > Aan: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Onderwerp: Re: Shipping a Tek 'scope > > I would not strip the unit its built like a tank and will > protect the tube. If the tube was separated and in the same > outer case the scope body becomes a hammer to smash the tube. > > Dave Caroline > > In a Tek 545A/B a lot of tubes are matched paires. If you remove them you got to mark them so you put them back in the right place. I've had one for more the 20 years it never let me down. -Rik From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Tue Nov 10 13:53:46 2009 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 11:53:46 -0800 Subject: Shipping a Tek 'scope References: <4AF99E7E.60503@gmail.com> <1257880763.20106.1.camel@crusader.localdomain.home> Message-ID: <4AF9C4CA.1E26D12D@cs.ubc.ca> The 545A is intended as a portable instrument, they are pretty robust. It has been awhile since I looked inside one, but instruments like this generally have either shields or retaining clips holding the tubes in place. IIRC, many of the tubes in Tek scopes are mounted upside-down or sideways, and will certainly already have some type of retainer. For the front panel, I would try cutting pieces of something such as stiffer foam to fit around the perimeter of the front panel, to keep forces off the controls. From john_finigan at yahoo.com Tue Nov 10 14:41:23 2009 From: john_finigan at yahoo.com (John Finigan) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 12:41:23 -0800 (PST) Subject: Shipping a Tek 'scope In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <528031.9835.qm@web37003.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Jules Richardson wrote: > I'm not reading here much at present, not until I > eventually get all my > collection moved, but I did just get offered a Tek 545A > which is languishing > in a garage down in Texas, so figured I'd ask about > shipping it safely. Cool! I had a similar one, a 543 IIRC, that was the only major piece of tech-junk I lost to hurricane Katrina. I still grin thinking of my complete panic when I looked at one side panel and saw a big orange glow in the tubes next to the power transformer. Got the side off and realized it was a neon filled voltage reference tube, not a glowing plate. Anyway, the things are a treasure trove of interesting tubes. I like the tiny soldered-in (baseless) HV rectifiers, tube regulated B+ system, and the electromechanical time delay "tube" that lets the thing warm up before applying HV. It's interesting to see tube design in "cost not much of an object" mode. I used to have Stan Griffiths' book "Oscilloscopes: Selecting and Restoring a Classic". I don't remember it being particularly technical, but it has tons of info on the Tek tube-era product line, and was fun to thumb through, if you're into that kind of thing. John Finigan From hachti at hachti.de Tue Nov 10 17:19:05 2009 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 00:19:05 +0100 Subject: pdp8/a core memory to trade! Ohhhhhh! In-Reply-To: References: <4AF7D617.1050208@hachti.de><6d6501090911090058m77edb6c8u8a46c829590e5635@mail.gmail.com> <4AF7ECDB.6080407@hachti.de> Message-ID: <4AF9F4E9.8080707@hachti.de> Hi Rik, > And contacting the seller doesn't work I assume........... Oh, I have tried - and it looks good. He seems to be nice and understanding. I assume that he has no detailed idea of the stuff he's selling for his company. > In that case you should consider naming and shaming the person. Currently he prepares a second shipment for compensation/replacement. If that goes well, he has proved reliable and fair. I'll see. In that case I'll name him (better: his company's eBay shop) here. But not to shame him. He still has lots of interesting pdp8/e and /a parts for sale, sometimes with hard to find auction titles.. I'll keep you updated. Philipp -- http://www.hachti.de From evan at snarc.net Tue Nov 10 18:55:03 2009 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 19:55:03 -0500 Subject: PC Magazine Message-ID: <4AFA0B67.8010506@snarc.net> Got what I need, disregard previous message. Thanks to everyone who offered assistance. From woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net Tue Nov 10 18:58:31 2009 From: woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net (Dave Woyciesjes) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 19:58:31 -0500 Subject: My odd message... Message-ID: <4AFA0C37.6050706@sbcglobal.net> On Nov 6, 2009, at 2:41 PM, Dave Woyciesjes wrote: > > > > Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2009 14:48:33 -0500 From: Dave McGuire Gezundheit. -Dave Thank you... (BTW, switched to digest for now...) Yeah, I had to go back and look to make sure I really sent a blank message like that. Must've been when I was tinkering with the new (to me) iPhone 3G.. Well, it's just an iPod Touch now, since it's not getting any cel signal; and I have no justification for paying out the nose for the data plan.... Now to figure out how to get the iPhone Mail to have different sigs for different accounts... -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- ICQ# 905818 --- AIM - woyciesjes --- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech - http://certification.comptia.org/ --- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst - http://www.ThinkHDI.com/ "From there to here, From here to there, Funny things are everywhere." --- Dr. Seuss From dseagrav at lunar-tokyo.net Tue Nov 10 19:04:59 2009 From: dseagrav at lunar-tokyo.net (Daniel Seagraves) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 19:04:59 -0600 Subject: My odd message... In-Reply-To: <4AFA0C37.6050706@sbcglobal.net> References: <4AFA0C37.6050706@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: On Nov 10, 2009, at 6:58 PM, Dave Woyciesjes wrote: > Yeah, I had to go back and look to make sure I really sent a blank > message like that. Must've been when I was tinkering with the new (to > me) iPhone 3G.. Well, it's just an iPod Touch now, since it's not > getting any cel signal; and I have no justification for paying out the > nose for the data plan.... And that's what you get for buying Apple. Next time buy a real computer. You seem educated - You should have known better. From wlsilva at sbcglobal.net Tue Nov 10 03:08:20 2009 From: wlsilva at sbcglobal.net (walter silva) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 01:08:20 -0800 Subject: Looking for a Tally 420 tape puncher and a 424 tape reader Message-ID: <8C6C03F0F5C64A90A8C16979DE411808@walter> Looking for a Tally 420 tape puncher and a Tally 424 tape reader, we need these for a restoration project for a Telemetry console that was used in the Titan rocket program. The Tally units that were in the operators console are missing, and we really would like to replace them for proper display. Many thanks. Walter Silva From wlsilva at sbcglobal.net Tue Nov 10 21:57:18 2009 From: wlsilva at sbcglobal.net (walter silva) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 19:57:18 -0800 Subject: Looking for a Tally 420 tape puncher and a 424 tape reader Message-ID: Looking for a Tally 420 tape puncher and a Tally 424 tape reader, we need these for a restoration project for a Telemetry console that was used in the Titan rocket program. The Tally units that were in the operators console are missing, and we really would like to replace them for proper display. Here is a link to a photo of both units http://www.dvq.com/ads/tally_dm_11_60.jpg Many thanks. Walter Silva From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Nov 11 02:38:17 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 03:38:17 -0500 Subject: Shipping a Tek 'scope In-Reply-To: <4AF99E7E.60503@gmail.com> References: <4AF99E7E.60503@gmail.com> Message-ID: > I'm not reading here much at present, not until I eventually get all my > collection moved, but I did just get offered a Tek 545A which is languishing > in a garage down in Texas, so figured I'd ask about shipping it safely. The best option is to politely ignore it and wait until you find one you can go and pick up locally. 545s are common as dirt. I have shipped bigger Teks, and they are a real hassle. -- Will From brianlanning at gmail.com Wed Nov 11 11:07:07 2009 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 11:07:07 -0600 Subject: apple documentary and huge apple collection Message-ID: <6dbe3c380911110907o772c051eh34e1e64d9d23fb7e@mail.gmail.com> We've been watching netflix through the xbox 360 lately. They have a documentary about apple that started out good, but sort of went down hill I think. (it seemed a few years old, so you may have already seen it) But toward the end, they showed a guy with a huge apple collection. He makes all of us look like amateurs. He doesn't have a storage facility. He has a 6000sqft building. It looks like a small office building. He also had machines in his basement, attic, and in a storage shed that looks more like a 2-car detached garage. In the video I saw maybe 40 or 50 apple 2es. I like stuff like this. It give me something to point my wife at and say, "see, at least i'm not like that guy!" lol http://www.netflix.com/Movie/Welcome_to_Macintosh/70112046?strackid=7c44782099e42234_2_srl&strkid=1577082368_2_0&trkid=222336 brian From woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net Wed Nov 11 12:18:08 2009 From: woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net (Dave Woyciesjes) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 13:18:08 -0500 Subject: My odd message... Message-ID: <4AFAFFE0.3040308@sbcglobal.net> Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 19:04:59 -0600 From: Daniel Seagraves On Nov 10, 2009, at 6:58 PM, Dave Woyciesjes wrote: > > Yeah, I had to go back and look to make sure I really sent a > > blank > > message like that. Must've been when I was tinkering with the new > > (to > > me) iPhone 3G.. Well, it's just an iPod Touch now, since it's not > > getting any cel signal; and I have no justification for paying out > > the > > nose for the data plan.... > > And that's what you get for buying Apple. Next time buy a real > computer. > You seem educated - You should have known better. Hey... Oh, wait, should've seen that coming. I neglected to mention that I didn't actually buy it. A co-worker here on the help desk had gotten a replacement, because this one wasn't getting phone signal anymore. I started using it so I could be familiar with it; for when users call in to get help with thiers. I would think Ubuntu Linux counts as a (fairly) real computer. Yeah, I know it's not a VAX or Cray... but it is kinda close. And free. And thanks for the edumication compliment... :) -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- ICQ# 905818 --- AIM - woyciesjes --- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech - http://certification.comptia.org/ --- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst - http://www.ThinkHDI.com/ "From there to here, From here to there, Funny things are everywhere." --- Dr. Seuss From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Nov 11 12:31:48 2009 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 10:31:48 -0800 (PST) Subject: My odd message... In-Reply-To: References: <4AFA0C37.6050706@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 10 Nov 2009, Daniel Seagraves wrote: > And that's what you get for buying Apple. Next time buy a real computer. > You seem educated - You should have known better. I do know better, that's why I switched to Mac's in the first place back in 1995. I'm far more productive on the Mac than I ever was on Linux, MS DOS, Windows, or OS/2. Remember you should use the right tool for the job at hand. Sometimes the right tool is even Windows (though that is a rare). Once Mac OS X got X-Windows I basically ceased to have any use for Linux at home (yes, I still have a system running Linux). My main OS at home is Mac OS X 10.4.11, and my secondary OS is OpenVMS 8.3. Zane From madcrow.maxwell at gmail.com Wed Nov 11 12:44:50 2009 From: madcrow.maxwell at gmail.com (Michael Kerpan) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 13:44:50 -0500 Subject: Any word on the Multics revival front? Message-ID: <8dd2d95c0911111044m2c159e71y50e35eb1ff20e8ff@mail.gmail.com> When Multics was officially released as free software a couple of years ago, there was a flurry of activity aimed at getting some sort of emulator up and running to run it. Did anything ever come of that or did folks just lose interest (or find out that the needed GE/Honeywell hardware was too poorly-documented to write an emulator of) Mike From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Nov 11 13:32:50 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 19:32:50 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Shipping a Tek 'scope In-Reply-To: <528031.9835.qm@web37003.mail.mud.yahoo.com> from "John Finigan" at Nov 10, 9 12:41:23 pm Message-ID: > > Cool! I had a similar one, a 543 IIRC, that was the only I have its 'big brother' the 555 alongside me at the moment. That has double _everything_ -- double beam (so double Y-amplifiers and plug-ins), double timebase (also on plug-in modules, but the only time you remove them is for ervicing), double _boxes (a separate PSU that lives on the bottom of the scopemobile) and so on. I also have an assortment of plug-ins. Nothing too exotic, but I do have the 1S1 sampler unit with the special cathode-follower probe (this is probe about 5/8" in diameter containing a tiny tiode valve). And a 3rd party specturm analyser plug-in. And ahe type M 4-trace unit (I'd prefer a 1A4, but it's what I could find). I even have the test plug-in. It contains a mercury-wetted relay running off an AC supply that applies fast-rise pulses to the input of the main Y amplifer for setting up the various trimmers. > Anyway, the things are a treasure trove of interesting > tubes. I like the tiny soldered-in (baseless) HV > rectifiers, tube regulated B+ system, and the The 555 even has regulated heater supplies. The heater transformer is fed through a saturable reactor. The current in the control winding of that comes from a pentode valve in the PSU unit, the grid voltage of that is controlled by a bright-emitter diode running off one of the heater lines. So the thing actually gets the RMS value of the heater supplies correct (which is what you want, of course). -tony From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Nov 11 14:32:49 2009 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 12:32:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: My odd message... In-Reply-To: from "Zane H. Healy" at "Nov 11, 9 10:31:48 am" Message-ID: <200911112032.nABKWnlD022254@floodgap.com> > And that's what you get for buying Apple. Next time buy a real computer. How old are you, six? -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Every new beginning comes from some other beginning's end. -- "Closing Time" From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Nov 11 14:38:03 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 15:38:03 -0500 Subject: My odd message... In-Reply-To: References: <4AFA0C37.6050706@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: On Nov 11, 2009, at 1:31 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: >> And that's what you get for buying Apple. Next time buy a real >> computer. >> You seem educated - You should have known better. > > I do know better, that's why I switched to Mac's in the first place > back in > 1995. I'm far more productive on the Mac than I ever was on Linux, > MS DOS, > Windows, or OS/2. Remember you should use the right tool for the > job at > hand. Sometimes the right tool is even Windows (though that is a > rare). Once Mac OS X got X-Windows I basically ceased to have any > use for Linux at > home (yes, I still have a system running Linux). > > My main OS at home is Mac OS X 10.4.11, and my secondary OS is > OpenVMS 8.3. *snicker* You, sir, have been trolled. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Nov 11 14:38:54 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 15:38:54 -0500 Subject: Shipping a Tek 'scope In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <770C1AFD-6E0D-4ED8-B2F7-B804FE033542@neurotica.com> On Nov 11, 2009, at 2:32 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> Cool! I had a similar one, a 543 IIRC, that was the only > > I have its 'big brother' the 555 alongside me at the moment. That has > double _everything_ -- double beam (so double Y-amplifiers and plug- > ins), > double timebase (also on plug-in modules, but the only time you remove > them is for ervicing), double _boxes (a separate PSU that lives on the > bottom of the scopemobile) and so on. I have a 555 as well! Still looking for a damn power umbilical.. :-/ -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Nov 11 15:18:57 2009 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 13:18:57 -0800 (PST) Subject: My odd message... In-Reply-To: References: <4AFA0C37.6050706@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 11 Nov 2009, Dave McGuire wrote: > *snicker* > > You, sir, have been trolled. > > -Dave Maybe. I give Daniel a bit more credit than that though. Maybe I shouldn't. Zane From dseagrav at lunar-tokyo.net Wed Nov 11 16:10:45 2009 From: dseagrav at lunar-tokyo.net (Daniel Seagraves) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 16:10:45 -0600 Subject: My odd message... In-Reply-To: References: <4AFA0C37.6050706@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: On Nov 11, 2009, at 3:18 PM, "Zane H. Healy" wrote: > > > On Wed, 11 Nov 2009, Dave McGuire wrote: > >> *snicker* >> >> You, sir, have been trolled. >> >> -Dave > > Maybe. I give Daniel a bit more credit than that though. Maybe I > shouldn't. I figured someone would have read the X-Mailer header by now and had a good laugh. Maybe next time I'll mention Nazis or something to make the joke more obvious. -- Sent from my (Jailbroken) iPhone. From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Nov 11 16:17:04 2009 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 14:17:04 -0800 (PST) Subject: My odd message... In-Reply-To: from Daniel Seagraves at "Nov 11, 9 04:10:45 pm" Message-ID: <200911112217.nABMH49S014034@floodgap.com> > I figured someone would have read the X-Mailer header by now and had a > good laugh. Maybe next time I'll mention Nazis or something to make > the joke more obvious. > > -- Sent from my (Jailbroken) iPhone. Well, I got trolled too, so :-P -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Of course, what I really want is total world domination. -- Linus Torvalds - From hachti at hachti.de Wed Nov 11 17:00:03 2009 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 00:00:03 +0100 Subject: Found some AMD bitslice stuff you might want to copy In-Reply-To: <4AF85624.1070508@bluewin.ch> References: <4AF2E3DB.2030905@hachti.de> <4AF31C4E.5040901@bitsavers.org> <4AF85624.1070508@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: <4AFB41F3.70207@hachti.de> > Speaking of these bitslices : anyone aware of DIY projects involving the > AMD2901 ? I have an AMD book "Build your own AM2900 computer" with samples and so on. It's a binder. Original AMD. Saved that from scrap in my university. Is that a common piece? Or is it something important that has to be scanned? -- http://www.hachti.de From jgessling at yahoo.com Wed Nov 11 17:08:56 2009 From: jgessling at yahoo.com (James Gessling) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 15:08:56 -0800 (PST) Subject: H8 system boards for sale or trade Message-ID: <104743.55402.qm@web31912.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I was considering parting out these boards for the chips and caps but realized that was really dumb. My ttl hobby is based on using parts in my junk boxes or parts paid for by other things in the collection. To that end I am offering these 5 boards and one manual. Three of the five boards have had the bus connector removed, some have a few chips removed. Please look here: http://picasaweb.google.com/jjgessling/ComputerStuff# Please let me know what you think, I can certainly ship. Regards, Jim From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Nov 11 18:08:37 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 19:08:37 -0500 Subject: VT420s Message-ID: I am finally testing out the pile of DEC VT420s I recently came into. Here is the deal: These are in decent, but sometimes a little grungy condition. I will test them out, and make sure the video is good, the comm port is good, and the keyboard is good. I will let them sit powered on for 15 minutes as a simple burnin. I will not clean them. They will be packed very nicely. $25.00 plus S&H from 10512. These weigh roughly 20 pounds unpacked. Please reply off list. -- Will From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Wed Nov 11 18:27:07 2009 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 19:27:07 -0500 Subject: H8 system boards for sale or trade In-Reply-To: <104743.55402.qm@web31912.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: James Gessling wrote: > I was considering parting out these boards for the chips and > caps but realized that was really dumb. My ttl hobby is > based on using parts in my junk boxes or parts paid for by > other things in the collection. To that end I am offering > these 5 boards and one manual. Three of the five boards have > had the bus connector removed, some have a few chips > removed. Please look here: > > http://picasaweb.google.com/jjgessling/ComputerStuff# > > Please let me know what you think, I can certainly ship. Hi, I'm actually restoring an H8 right now. What are you looking for in trade? I have a number of S-100 boards available to trade. Bill Sudbrink From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Wed Nov 11 18:29:24 2009 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 19:29:24 -0500 Subject: H8 system boards for sale or trade In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Hi, > > I'm actually restoring an H8 right now. What are you looking > for in trade? I have a number of S-100 boards available to > trade. > > Bill Sudbrink Oh shoot. Meant that to be private. Sorry. From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Nov 11 19:50:55 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 20:50:55 -0500 Subject: Found some AMD bitslice stuff you might want to copy In-Reply-To: <4AFB41F3.70207@hachti.de> References: <4AF2E3DB.2030905@hachti.de> <4AF31C4E.5040901@bitsavers.org> <4AF85624.1070508@bluewin.ch> <4AFB41F3.70207@hachti.de> Message-ID: <14AAF916-74EC-480C-85F8-24EA219205C6@neurotica.com> On Nov 11, 2009, at 6:00 PM, Philipp Hachtmann wrote: > I have an AMD book "Build your own AM2900 computer" with samples > and so on. It's a binder. Original AMD. Saved that from scrap in my > university. Is that a common piece? Or is it something important > that has to be scanned? Oh my, I'd love to get my hands on a digital copy of that. Does anyone have it scanned? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL > From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Nov 11 19:57:33 2009 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 17:57:33 -0800 (PST) Subject: updated the Alpha Micro Phun Machine Message-ID: <200911120157.nAC1vX2Q013122@floodgap.com> Having the day off, I finally uploaded some new pr0n to the Alpha Micro Phun Machine, including pictures of the AM-1000 and AM-1001 I got recently, and the AM-1041 S-100-based system that I'm hoping to restore and get operational in the not-so-distant future (hi Bob!). I also included a download for the fingerproxy, which I'm using to give arbitrary TCP socket access to older AlphaTCP installations. Maybe I'll work on Lynx for the Alpha Micro next ;-) Anyway, http://ampm.floodgap.com/ Running on a real Alpha Micro Eagle 300 since 2007! -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- "My inner geek can beat up your inner geek." ------------------------------- From trixter at oldskool.org Wed Nov 11 20:55:25 2009 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 20:55:25 -0600 Subject: apple documentary and huge apple collection In-Reply-To: <6dbe3c380911110907o772c051eh34e1e64d9d23fb7e@mail.gmail.com> References: <6dbe3c380911110907o772c051eh34e1e64d9d23fb7e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4AFB791D.7040607@oldskool.org> Brian Lanning wrote: > We've been watching netflix through the xbox 360 lately. They have a > documentary about apple that started out good, but sort of went down hill Agreed, it was pretty amateurish at the end and didn't really have a clear message. There's another one (Macheads) that isn't any better. To date, my favorite Apple documentary footage was the 1995 piece by Robert X. Cringely (Triumph Of The Nerds), as there is some very honest Jobs and Woz interview footage, especially more interesting as this is before Jobs went back to Apple. > He doesn't have a storage facility. He has a > 6000sqft building. It looks like a small office building. To be fair, it *is* a small office building -- it's his business. He just uses it for secondary storage of his collection. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From rdawson16 at hotmail.com Wed Nov 11 22:07:53 2009 From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 22:07:53 -0600 Subject: Found some AMD bitslice stuff you might want to copy In-Reply-To: <4B300695-AB07-4F62-8E6F-D4D0164EC7C8@neurotica.com> References: <4AF2E3DB.2030905@hachti.de> <4AF31C4E.5040901@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: There are two books: Mick and Brick, Bit-slice microprocessor design ISBN 0-070041781-4 and Donnamaie E White Bitslice contollers and ALu's the latter is on her site: http://donnamaie.com/ Cool stuff! I have the mick and brick book. Randy > From: mcguire at neurotica.com > Subject: Re: Found some AMD bitslice stuff you might want to copy > Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2009 12:58:22 -0500 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > On Nov 9, 2009, at 12:49 PM, Jos Dreesen wrote: > >> Digging in my pile I found the chapters I through VII > >> of "Build a Microcomputer". > > > > Speaking of these bitslices : anyone aware of DIY projects > > involving the AMD2901 ? > > I've wanted to do one for a loooong time but haven't started > anything yet. :-( > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire > Port Charlotte, FL > _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail: Trusted email with powerful SPAM protection. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/177141665/direct/01/ From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Nov 11 22:25:28 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 23:25:28 -0500 Subject: Found some AMD bitslice stuff you might want to copy In-Reply-To: References: <4AF2E3DB.2030905@hachti.de> <4AF31C4E.5040901@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <239DFADF-13D5-44AF-A943-F88287C7DC68@neurotica.com> I have Mick and Brick as well, it's excellent. I hadn't heard of the second one, I will check it out; thanks for the pointer! -Dave On Nov 11, 2009, at 11:07 PM, Randy Dawson wrote: > There are two books: > > Mick and Brick, Bit-slice microprocessor design ISBN 0-070041781-4 > and > Donnamaie E White Bitslice contollers and ALu's > > the latter is on her site: > http://donnamaie.com/ > > Cool stuff! I have the mick and brick book. > > Randy > > >> From: mcguire at neurotica.com >> Subject: Re: Found some AMD bitslice stuff you might want to copy >> Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2009 12:58:22 -0500 >> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >> >> On Nov 9, 2009, at 12:49 PM, Jos Dreesen wrote: >>>> Digging in my pile I found the chapters I through VII >>>> of "Build a Microcomputer". >>> >>> Speaking of these bitslices : anyone aware of DIY projects >>> involving the AMD2901 ? >> >> I've wanted to do one for a loooong time but haven't started >> anything yet. :-( >> >> -Dave >> >> -- >> Dave McGuire >> Port Charlotte, FL >> > > _________________________________________________________________ > Hotmail: Trusted email with powerful SPAM protection. > http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/177141665/direct/01/ From rdawson16 at hotmail.com Wed Nov 11 23:04:16 2009 From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 23:04:16 -0600 Subject: Found some AMD bitslice stuff you might want to copy In-Reply-To: <239DFADF-13D5-44AF-A943-F88287C7DC68@neurotica.com> References: <4AF2E3DB.2030905@hachti.de> <4AF31C4E.5040901@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: Hi Dave, I got hooked on these when they were the new thing to compete against CMOS. I was working in geophysics, and they were the rage for fast ffts and seismic processing. Later, had a graphics box called SUPERSET that was a graphics supercomputer (1982) that executed a 48 bit a=b (op) c instruction set in a single cycle. Sortof like a precursor to the DSP. All 2901 based, in a microwave oven size box, and wow what a toy. It was Ian Hirscholn's company, the author of PLOT3D, later bought by SAS. Fond memories of the old days... So heck, Im very interested in homebuilt CPUs. Even to cheat via the FPGA route, or not even get out the wire wrap gun but do it all in modelsim. I ramble. Cheers. Randy > From: mcguire at neurotica.com > Subject: Re: Found some AMD bitslice stuff you might want to copy > Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 23:25:28 -0500 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > > I have Mick and Brick as well, it's excellent. I hadn't heard of > the second one, I will check it out; thanks for the pointer! > > -Dave > > On Nov 11, 2009, at 11:07 PM, Randy Dawson wrote: > > There are two books: > > > > Mick and Brick, Bit-slice microprocessor design ISBN 0-070041781-4 > > and > > Donnamaie E White Bitslice contollers and ALu's > > > > the latter is on her site: > > http://donnamaie.com/ > > > > Cool stuff! I have the mick and brick book. > > > > Randy > > > > > >> From: mcguire at neurotica.com > >> Subject: Re: Found some AMD bitslice stuff you might want to copy > >> Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2009 12:58:22 -0500 > >> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >> > >> On Nov 9, 2009, at 12:49 PM, Jos Dreesen wrote: > >>>> Digging in my pile I found the chapters I through VII > >>>> of "Build a Microcomputer". > >>> > >>> Speaking of these bitslices : anyone aware of DIY projects > >>> involving the AMD2901 ? > >> > >> I've wanted to do one for a loooong time but haven't started > >> anything yet. :-( > >> > >> -Dave > >> > >> -- > >> Dave McGuire > >> Port Charlotte, FL > >> > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Hotmail: Trusted email with powerful SPAM protection. > > http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/177141665/direct/01/ > _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail: Trusted email with Microsoft's powerful SPAM protection. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/177141664/direct/01/ http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/177141664/direct/01/ From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Nov 11 22:36:19 2009 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 21:36:19 -0700 Subject: My odd message... In-Reply-To: References: <4AFA0C37.6050706@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: At 4:10 PM -0600 11/11/09, Daniel Seagraves wrote: >On Nov 11, 2009, at 3:18 PM, "Zane H. Healy" wrote: >>On Wed, 11 Nov 2009, Dave McGuire wrote: >> >>>*snicker* >>> >>>You, sir, have been trolled. >>> >>> -Dave >> >>Maybe. I give Daniel a bit more credit than that though. Maybe I shouldn't. > >I figured someone would have read the X-Mailer header by now and had >a good laugh. Maybe next time I'll mention Nazis or something to >make the joke more obvious. > >-- Sent from my (Jailbroken) iPhone. Well, I expected better from you than you acting as a Troll, and I must admit I wasn't disappointed. :-) I sure fell for that one. :-) Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From dseagrav at lunar-tokyo.net Wed Nov 11 23:56:56 2009 From: dseagrav at lunar-tokyo.net (Daniel Seagraves) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 23:56:56 -0600 Subject: My odd message... In-Reply-To: References: <4AFA0C37.6050706@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: On Nov 11, 2009, at 10:36 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: > Well, I expected better from you than you acting as a Troll, and I > must admit I wasn't disappointed. :-) I sure fell for that one. :-) Well, I figured it was so far way out that everyone would immediately recognize it as a joke. I apologize if anyone took it the wrong way. From quapla at xs4all.nl Thu Nov 12 01:15:57 2009 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (Ed Groenenberg) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 08:15:57 +0100 Subject: Dec HSC-70 boards available Message-ID: <5b34f28a5751792022518a2b55d8d2e5.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> For those who want it (cost of postage + $20 for the 'bribe') : I have about 20 boards from 2 HSC-70's cluster controllers and several floppies which came with them. All the boards together is about 12Kg in weight. Ed -- Certified : VCP 3.x, SCSI 3.x SCSA S10, SCNA S10 From quapla at xs4all.nl Thu Nov 12 04:59:07 2009 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (Ed Groenenberg) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 11:59:07 +0100 Subject: Industrial PDP boards available Message-ID: <35fb7bb11c08fc89ffb4b156fd0ae6c0.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> I have available a number of what looks like industrial PDP-11 stuff. These board do have a grey handle and are marked 'BH-xxx' instead of 'Mxxxx'. Several boards, single, dual, quad & hex ones. And also a backplane. If interested, let me know off list. Ed -- Certified : VCP 3.x, SCSI 3.x SCSA S10, SCNA S10 From brianlanning at gmail.com Thu Nov 12 07:02:10 2009 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 07:02:10 -0600 Subject: apple documentary and huge apple collection In-Reply-To: <4AFB791D.7040607@oldskool.org> References: <6dbe3c380911110907o772c051eh34e1e64d9d23fb7e@mail.gmail.com> <4AFB791D.7040607@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <6dbe3c380911120502k4393e877w1eefee3e9abab41d@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Nov 11, 2009 at 8:55 PM, Jim Leonard wrote: > To be fair, it *is* a small office building -- it's his business. He just > uses it for secondary storage of his collection. > I guess that hadn't occurred to me that he would actually run a business out of there. lol brian From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Nov 12 09:15:28 2009 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 10:15:28 -0500 Subject: apple documentary and huge apple collection In-Reply-To: <6dbe3c380911110907o772c051eh34e1e64d9d23fb7e@mail.gmail.com> References: <6dbe3c380911110907o772c051eh34e1e64d9d23fb7e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4AFC2690.7050900@gmail.com> Brian Lanning wrote: > We've been watching netflix through the xbox 360 lately. They have a > documentary about apple that started out good, but sort of went down hill I > think. (it seemed a few years old, so you may have already seen it) But > toward the end, they showed a guy with a huge apple collection. He makes > all of us look like amateurs. He doesn't have a storage facility. He has a > 6000sqft building. It looks like a small office building. He also had > machines in his basement, attic, and in a storage shed that looks more like > a 2-car detached garage. In the video I saw maybe 40 or 50 apple 2es. I > like stuff like this. It give me something to point my wife at and say, > "see, at least i'm not like that guy!" lol Uhh. I have single machines bigger than 40-50 Apple ][s. My collection takes up *waay* more than 6000 ft^2. Peace... Sridhar From rmg at ranma.com Wed Nov 11 20:04:34 2009 From: rmg at ranma.com (rmg at ranma.com) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 18:04:34 -0800 (PST) Subject: Walkthrough of a small datacenter 1992 Message-ID: <14071583.61257991474405.JavaMail.root@ranma.com> Just ran across this list. I thought I'd share this with all of you. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=am60T-p7f1E This was when I was working at NASA Ames -- NASA Science Internet (NSIPO), Building N-233. I had a Sony Hi8 I just had bought and was testing out. I'm surprised I kept this footage. Enjoy! Rob Gutierrez From brain at jbrain.com Wed Nov 11 22:24:39 2009 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 22:24:39 -0600 Subject: JiffyDOS Forensics Message-ID: <4AFB8E07.7090208@jbrain.com> Please feel free to repost on other forums, I'm trying to catch as many people as possible: As many of you are probably aware, I acquired a license to sell JiffyDOS earlier this year and am now ramping up sales. To that end, I am trying to reconstruct the exact product offerings that CMD offered. This means verifying images, and determining what original ROM images CMD supplied with each overlay. Thus, if anyone can use a DOS ROM reading utility (or EPROM reader) and can send me a copy of the both halves of the JDOS ROM, I'm still struggling with the following systems. 1571: I have three versions here, but cannot determine which is correct. The MD5s are: 41c6cc528e9515ffd0ed9b180f8467c0, 6b4d46b28b7414d5a82cea4972894600, and d649fa6b0108c20ce213f5496d5980a5. What is the version number on the ROM sticker?) 1571D: I have a 1571D JiffyDOS ROM here, but it looks to be a 1571DCR (the cost reduced version). Notes indicate a non-CR 1571D used a normal 1571 JD ROM overlay, but I'd like to verify that. MSD SD1/SD2: I am trying to determine the version of MSD code in the lower half of the U5 JiffyDOS for SD2. The MD5 is 1a2efac3b96decf83fba27bc17c5a8a7. I checked against my SD2-2.3 version here, but they are different. Also, is the SD1 JiffyDOS the same as SD2 version? Indus GT: I do not have an original JDOS for this, so I need a dump to compare. 1541C: Again, I do not own an original JDOS for this machine. I understand there is a Swedish version of JiffyDOS for the C128 and C128D (and possibly for the C64) [Update: I have been sent copies of the Swedish JiffyDOS ROMs, but I'd still be interested in what version of KERNAL was included as the "original" KERNAL for these units.] German/Finnish JiffyDOS variants? Any help folks can provide would be much appreciated. In fact, if you have an original JDOS, no matter the type and can dump it for me (both the original and the JD portions), that'd be great. Anything you can tell me about the setup - sticker legend (version number, etc.), machine variant (128, 128D, 128DCR, etc.), video standard (PAL/NTSC), and whether it had a switch on the ROM - is good information to share. To clarify, I know there are bootleg archives available, but I can't consider them authoritative. In addition, the archives would not tell me what CMD placed in the non-JD half of the EPROM on units with switches. I would prefer to check against genuine copies of the overlays if at all possible. Jim -- Jim Brain, Brain Innovations (X) brain at jbrain.com Dabbling in WWW, Embedded Systems, Old CBM computers, and Good Times! Home: http://www.jbrain.com From devonstopps at gmail.com Thu Nov 12 12:34:56 2009 From: devonstopps at gmail.com (Devon Stopps) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 13:34:56 -0500 Subject: Free: Dual Pentium Motherboard Message-ID: <4AFC5550.7050602@gmail.com> I have one Asus PCI/I-P54NP4D dual processor Pentium motherboard (Socket5). Has memory and one CPU. Free plus shipping from Kingston, ON. From john_finigan at yahoo.com Thu Nov 12 15:10:40 2009 From: john_finigan at yahoo.com (John Finigan) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 13:10:40 -0800 (PST) Subject: Shipping a Tek 'scope In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <419008.98063.qm@web37005.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Tony Duell wrote: > The 555 even has regulated heater supplies. The heater > transformer is fed > through a saturable reactor. The current in the control > winding of that > comes from a pentode valve in the PSU unit, the grid > voltage of that is > controlled by a bright-emitter diode running off one of the > heater lines. > So the thing actually gets the RMS value of the heater > supplies correct > (which is what you want, of course). That's fascinating. I'd seen "passive" ballast tubes for heater regulation, but not an "active" solution like this. I found a good write-up at: http://www.radiomuseum.org/forum/2as15_how_it_works.html Especially interesting to me is the mechanical link in the diode that shorts it out when the filament burns out, pulling down the regulated voltage. I wonder if they learned the necessity of that the hard way. John Finigan From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Nov 11 19:04:22 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 01:04:22 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Shipping a Tek 'scope In-Reply-To: <770C1AFD-6E0D-4ED8-B2F7-B804FE033542@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Nov 11, 9 03:38:54 pm Message-ID: > I have a 555 as well! Still looking for a damn power umbilical.. :-/ I guess the main problem to making one is finding the connectors. They're actually larger versions of the well-known microribbon series, which is I guess why the HPIB, Centronics, etc connectors re called _micro_ribbon. Fortunately my 'scope came with the PSU - 'indicator' cable, but I don't have a spare one. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Nov 11 19:20:48 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 01:20:48 +0000 (GMT) Subject: apple documentary and huge apple collection In-Reply-To: <4AFC2690.7050900@gmail.com> from "Sridhar Ayengar" at Nov 12, 9 10:15:28 am Message-ID: > > a 2-car detached garage. In the video I saw maybe 40 or 50 apple 2es. I > > like stuff like this. It give me something to point my wife at and say, > > "see, at least i'm not like that guy!" lol > > Uhh. I have single machines bigger than 40-50 Apple ][s. My collection Sure, so do I, and so do many others here. I think the point is that we (or at least I) don't have 40 or 50 almost indentical machines. OK, it's reasonable to have multiple instances of the same machine to use for spares, or to netowrk together, or because there are different models that look similar, but not 40 or 50 of them (at least not in most cases...) -tony From brianlanning at gmail.com Thu Nov 12 15:33:54 2009 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 15:33:54 -0600 Subject: apple documentary and huge apple collection In-Reply-To: References: <4AFC2690.7050900@gmail.com> Message-ID: <6dbe3c380911121333j42283759t4629236db0899973@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Nov 11, 2009 at 7:20 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > Sure, so do I, and so do many others here. I think the point is that we > (or at least I) don't have 40 or 50 almost indentical machines. OK, it's > reasonable to have multiple instances of the same machine to use for > spares, or to netowrk together, or because there are different models > that look similar, but not 40 or 50 of them (at least not in most cases...) > > Yeah, this guy had 40 or 50 apple 2Es, 15 2GSs that I could see, maybe 20 or 30 mac LCs, etc. I have two 2GSs and two Amiga 2000s, etc. I can see easily ending up with a couple dozen or more examples of certain machines that I'd like to have, plus a spare or two, or even several identical models, but with different configurations. Beyond that, I have to question why one person would need all of these without extenuating circumstances, like trying to start a retro computer business, or maybe for a museum or something (who knows, maybe he is). As it it, it appears that it's only serving to keep a large number of machines out of circulation. I'd love to have a clean working Laserwriter 2. He had 8 or 10 stacked up. I almost never see them on ebay (maybe my saved searches are filtering them out though). No ill will though. I wish I had his collection. I'm sure my wife is glad I don't. :-) brian From teoz at neo.rr.com Thu Nov 12 15:45:38 2009 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 16:45:38 -0500 Subject: apple documentary and huge apple collection References: Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2009 8:20 PM Subject: Re: apple documentary and huge apple collection >> > a 2-car detached garage. In the video I saw maybe 40 or 50 apple 2es. >> > I >> > like stuff like this. It give me something to point my wife at and >> > say, >> > "see, at least i'm not like that guy!" lol >> >> Uhh. I have single machines bigger than 40-50 Apple ][s. My collection > > Sure, so do I, and so do many others here. I think the point is that we > (or at least I) don't have 40 or 50 almost indentical machines. OK, it's > reasonable to have multiple instances of the same machine to use for > spares, or to netowrk together, or because there are different models > that look similar, but not 40 or 50 of them (at least not in most > cases...) > > -tony Was that guy a scrapper who got in pallets of similar equipment and just kept them? It seems if you can hold onto something a few years after most get scrapped they tend to have some value again. I recall when most IIgs systems were flooding the scrappers you could not give them away, now people pay for them again. Apple II, II+,IIe have some value these days. There are people with basements full of C64's, I kind of wonder why they keep them all (since most seem to be in pieces and non working). From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Nov 12 15:54:42 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 16:54:42 -0500 Subject: apple documentary and huge apple collection In-Reply-To: <6dbe3c380911121333j42283759t4629236db0899973@mail.gmail.com> References: <4AFC2690.7050900@gmail.com> <6dbe3c380911121333j42283759t4629236db0899973@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: > Yeah, this guy had 40 or 50 apple 2Es, 15 2GSs that I could see, maybe 20 or > 30 mac LCs, etc. ?I have two 2GSs and two Amiga 2000s, etc. ?I can see > easily ending up with a couple dozen or more examples of certain machines > that I'd like to have, plus a spare or two, or even several identical > models, but with different configurations. ?Beyond that, I have to question > why one person would need all of these without extenuating circumstances, > like trying to start a retro computer business, or maybe for a museum or > something (who knows, maybe he is). ?As it it, it appears that it's only > serving to keep a large number of machines out of circulation. Oh, please... The hundred (several hundred?) Apple machines that man has is not even making a tiny dent in the supply, if he really is trying to keep machines out of circulation. Most of what he has is incredibly common. So common, that when I get (most) Apple machines during my business dealings, I tend to scrap them. OK, if they were Apple 3s or Lisas - a couple hundred might make a dent. -- Will From brianlanning at gmail.com Thu Nov 12 15:56:52 2009 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 15:56:52 -0600 Subject: apple documentary and huge apple collection In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6dbe3c380911121356k5d279deax9b1c04f0d95eb0bd@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 3:45 PM, Teo Zenios wrote: > Was that guy a scrapper who got in pallets of similar equipment and just > kept them? It seems if you can hold onto something a few years after most > get scrapped they tend to have some value again. I recall when most IIgs > systems were flooding the scrappers you could not give them away, now people > pay for them again. Apple II, II+,IIe have some value these days. > > There are people with basements full of C64's, I kind of wonder why they > keep them all (since most seem to be in pieces and non working). > They didn't say. He made it sound like he got them one at a time, but I suspect he just cleaned out schools when they unloaded. One printer had a some sort of waste sticker on it. brian From brianlanning at gmail.com Thu Nov 12 15:59:30 2009 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 15:59:30 -0600 Subject: apple documentary and huge apple collection In-Reply-To: References: <4AFC2690.7050900@gmail.com> <6dbe3c380911121333j42283759t4629236db0899973@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6dbe3c380911121359i4a1b90a7n2653aa451a996884@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 3:54 PM, William Donzelli wrote: > Oh, please... > > The hundred (several hundred?) Apple machines that man has is not even > making a tiny dent in the supply, if he really is trying to keep > machines out of circulation. Most of what he has is incredibly common. > So common, that when I get (most) Apple machines during my business > dealings, I tend to scrap them. > > OK, if they were Apple 3s or Lisas - a couple hundred might make a dent. > > I think it depends on what it is like you say. 2GSs seem to be all over ebay for next to nothing for example, other things, not so much. From shumaker at att.net Thu Nov 12 16:14:21 2009 From: shumaker at att.net (steve shumaker) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 17:14:21 -0500 Subject: large core memory on Ventura CraigsList! item 1459663074 Message-ID: <4AFC88BD.90107@att.net> for the listers that lust after core memory, there is one up on the Ventura CraigsList that appears to be a complete intact subsystem with all support circuitry in original housing. Described as a Litton Mass Core Memory Unit with an Ampex Core Assembly inside, poster put up several nice photos wants $450 for it steve From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Thu Nov 12 16:28:30 2009 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 16:28:30 -0600 Subject: Shipping a Tek 'scope In-Reply-To: References: <4AF99E7E.60503@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4AFC8C0E.4070701@gmail.com> William Donzelli wrote: >> I'm not reading here much at present, not until I eventually get all my >> collection moved, but I did just get offered a Tek 545A which is languishing >> in a garage down in Texas, so figured I'd ask about shipping it safely. > > The best option is to politely ignore it and wait until you find one > you can go and pick up locally. 545s are common as dirt. Not around here, I suspect - it's not exactly the right area for it :-( I think the chances of finding someone with one local enough that I can pick it up in person are reasonably close to zero. Not impossible, of course, but it'd be difficult to find one close by purely for the cost of moving it. "common as dirt" very much depends on location... cheers Jules From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Nov 12 16:42:16 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 17:42:16 -0500 Subject: Shipping a Tek 'scope In-Reply-To: <4AFC8C0E.4070701@gmail.com> References: <4AF99E7E.60503@gmail.com> <4AFC8C0E.4070701@gmail.com> Message-ID: > Not around here, I suspect - it's not exactly the right area for it :-( You are not looking, apparently. Hams dragged these things to all corners of the Earth. -- Will From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Thu Nov 12 16:54:35 2009 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 20:54:35 -0200 Subject: Shipping a Tek 'scope In-Reply-To: References: <4AF99E7E.60503@gmail.com> <4AFC8C0E.4070701@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4a15f9590911121454v1ef73c35sc11afacc82a4ab40@mail.gmail.com> So bad there are too few (and when found TOO expensive) exemplars of tek gear around here. I dream with a TM500 "lab in a box" thing :o) > Not around here, I suspect - it's not exactly the right area for it :-( > You are not looking, apparently. > Hams dragged these things to all corners of the Earth. > > From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Nov 12 16:56:47 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 17:56:47 -0500 Subject: Shipping a Tek 'scope In-Reply-To: References: <4AF99E7E.60503@gmail.com> <4AFC8C0E.4070701@gmail.com> Message-ID: <926FF300-D252-48AE-A303-B684586498CC@neurotica.com> On Nov 12, 2009, at 5:42 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >> Not around here, I suspect - it's not exactly the right area for >> it :-( > > You are not looking, apparently. Ok, I'm gonna call your bluff, because I *AM* looking, ever since my trusty 545A was accidentally sold from a warehouse. They're pretty rare down here as well. Pointer? > Hams dragged these things to all corners of the Earth. > ...and they tend to keep them. That's the problem. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Nov 12 17:03:48 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 18:03:48 -0500 Subject: Shipping a Tek 'scope In-Reply-To: <4a15f9590911121454v1ef73c35sc11afacc82a4ab40@mail.gmail.com> References: <4AF99E7E.60503@gmail.com> <4AFC8C0E.4070701@gmail.com> <4a15f9590911121454v1ef73c35sc11afacc82a4ab40@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: > So bad there are too few (and when found TOO expensive) exemplars of tek > gear around here. > > I dream with a TM500 "lab in a box" thing :o) OK, *you* might have trouble finding a 545. -- Will From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Nov 12 17:04:03 2009 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 16:04:03 -0700 Subject: Shipping a Tek 'scope In-Reply-To: References: <4AF99E7E.60503@gmail.com> <4AFC8C0E.4070701@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4AFC9463.2090606@jetnet.ab.ca> UWilliam Donzelli wrote: >> Not around here, I suspect - it's not exactly the right area for it :-( > > You are not looking, apparently. > > Hams dragged these things to all corners of the Earth. > > -- > Will > Umm the world is round. I suspect all the big cleaning of old stuff was done about 10 to 15 years ago, with the advent of digital scopes. From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Nov 12 17:12:53 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 18:12:53 -0500 Subject: Shipping a Tek 'scope In-Reply-To: <4AFC9463.2090606@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4AF99E7E.60503@gmail.com> <4AFC8C0E.4070701@gmail.com> <4AFC9463.2090606@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <079139C4-E1A9-4B5F-A4DE-8AB7CF9443F1@neurotica.com> On Nov 12, 2009, at 6:04 PM, Ben wrote: >>> Not around here, I suspect - it's not exactly the right area for >>> it :-( >> You are not looking, apparently. >> Hams dragged these things to all corners of the Earth. >> -- >> Will > Umm the world is round. I suspect all the big cleaning of old stuff > was done about 10 to 15 years ago, with the advent of digital scopes. A digital oscilloscope is a completely different instrument with (mostly) different applications...they have not replaced analog scopes, and likely will not. It would be more correct to say "modern analog scopes have replaced 40-year-old tube-type analog scopes". -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Nov 12 17:13:01 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 18:13:01 -0500 Subject: Shipping a Tek 'scope In-Reply-To: <4AFC9463.2090606@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4AF99E7E.60503@gmail.com> <4AFC8C0E.4070701@gmail.com> <4AFC9463.2090606@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: > Umm the world is round. ?I suspect all the big cleaning of old stuff > was done about 10 to 15 years ago, with the advent of digital scopes. In the past six months, I have come across (in mostly different locations!) EIGHT different tube type Tek scopes. I will likely only keep the 565 machine, as all good 70s mainframe shops had a Tek on a cart tucked away somewhere. Just a few days ago I came into a 535A and a 567. The 567 is a little bit of an oddball, as it has the built in Nixie tube frequency counter. I may end up parting these out, unless someone wants to give me scrap/parts/shipping value (from 10512). It is a bit rough, so it is a bit of a project. In thinking about this again, it was likely the military that spread Teks all over the place initially. They purchased biblical amounts of 535As and 545As. -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Nov 12 17:18:49 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 18:18:49 -0500 Subject: GRI Message-ID: Speaking of classic test equipment... The circa-1970 GRI-99 minicomputer from GRI. What a bomb. I have to wonder how many sold, and if any are left. Was GRI an attempt by General Radio to get into the minicomputer fray? -- Will From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Thu Nov 12 17:26:47 2009 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 21:26:47 -0200 Subject: apple documentary and huge apple collection In-Reply-To: <6dbe3c380911121359i4a1b90a7n2653aa451a996884@mail.gmail.com> References: <4AFC2690.7050900@gmail.com> <6dbe3c380911121333j42283759t4629236db0899973@mail.gmail.com> <6dbe3c380911121359i4a1b90a7n2653aa451a996884@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4a15f9590911121526i27a8172ev78377163a2abdd46@mail.gmail.com> > > I think it depends on what it is like you say. 2GSs seem to be all over > ebay for next to nothing for example, other things, not so much. > It remembers me how HARD is to find a IIGS here in Brazil. Even a motherboard would help. BTW, anyone with a spare Ramworks II or Ramworks III? :o) From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Thu Nov 12 17:32:56 2009 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 23:32:56 +0000 Subject: GRI In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Around that time ish they were also making a digital tester, Bug hound GR2220, I wonder if that was born to fix their computer etc Dave Caroline On Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 11:18 PM, William Donzelli wrote: > Speaking of classic test equipment... > > The circa-1970 GRI-99 minicomputer from GRI. What a bomb. I have to > wonder how many sold, and if any are left. > > Was GRI an attempt by General Radio to get into the minicomputer fray? > > -- > Will > From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Thu Nov 12 17:34:57 2009 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 15:34:57 -0800 (PST) Subject: Shipping a Tek 'scope In-Reply-To: <079139C4-E1A9-4B5F-A4DE-8AB7CF9443F1@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <165776.25952.qm@web82702.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- On Thu, 11/12/09, Dave McGuire wrote: From: Dave McGuire Subject: Re: Shipping a Tek 'scope To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Date: Thursday, November 12, 2009, 3:12 PM On Nov 12, 2009, at 6:04 PM, Ben wrote: >>> Not around here, I suspect - it's not exactly the right area for it :-( >> You are not looking, apparently. >> Hams dragged these things to all corners of the Earth. >> -- >> Will > Umm the world is round.? I suspect all the big cleaning of old stuff > was done about 10 to 15 years ago, with the advent of digital scopes. ? A digital oscilloscope is a completely different instrument with (mostly) different applications...they have not replaced analog scopes, and likely will not.? It would be more correct to say "modern analog scopes have replaced 40-year-old tube-type analog scopes". ? ? ? ? ???-Dave --Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL I don't think you can even buy an analog scope from Tektronix or Agilent any more. Digital really is taking over the scope market. Bob From cclist at sydex.com Thu Nov 12 17:35:03 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 15:35:03 -0800 Subject: Shipping a Tek 'scope In-Reply-To: <079139C4-E1A9-4B5F-A4DE-8AB7CF9443F1@neurotica.com> References: <4AF99E7E.60503@gmail.com>, <4AFC9463.2090606@jetnet.ab.ca>, <079139C4-E1A9-4B5F-A4DE-8AB7CF9443F1@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4AFC2B27.24362.1D12A46@cclist.sydex.com> On 12 Nov 2009 at 18:12, Dave McGuire wrote: > A digital oscilloscope is a completely different instrument with > (mostly) different applications...they have not replaced analog > scopes, and likely will not. It would be more correct to say "modern > analog scopes have replaced 40-year-old tube-type analog scopes". You can say that again. While I don't miss fussing with the old storage-tube scopes, a good analog scope is still a very valuable tool (mine is an old Tek 465). I wouldn't mind owning a 7000 series unit with a nice palette of plugins, but I suspect those are still in high demand and command real money. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Thu Nov 12 17:44:20 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 15:44:20 -0800 Subject: GRI In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4AFC2D54.24482.1D9AC41@cclist.sydex.com> On 12 Nov 2009 at 18:18, William Donzelli wrote: > Speaking of classic test equipment... > > The circa-1970 GRI-99 minicomputer from GRI. What a bomb. I have to > wonder how many sold, and if any are left. > > Was GRI an attempt by General Radio to get into the minicomputer fray? GRI--Newton, Mass--I thought, was a firm not affiliated with anyone. They were noted for creating a very inexpensive MOVE architecture machine. I don't know what became of them (i.e. who swallowed them). Curious machines. --Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Nov 12 17:46:34 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 18:46:34 -0500 Subject: Shipping a Tek 'scope In-Reply-To: References: <4AF99E7E.60503@gmail.com> <4AFC8C0E.4070701@gmail.com> <4AFC9463.2090606@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <3F205B36-1E19-4F57-9D71-0245A1A5FE95@neurotica.com> On Nov 12, 2009, at 6:13 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >> Umm the world is round. I suspect all the big cleaning of old stuff >> was done about 10 to 15 years ago, with the advent of digital scopes. > > In the past six months, I have come across (in mostly different > locations!) EIGHT different tube type Tek scopes. I will likely only > keep the 565 machine, as all good 70s mainframe shops had a Tek on a > cart tucked away somewhere. You, sir, are blessed with being in the right part of the country to get interesting gear cheap. The best I can hope for around here is old VCRs and last year's Pentiums. And yes, I DO know how to find stuff...there's just not any here. > Just a few days ago I came into a 535A and a 567. The 567 is a little > bit of an oddball, as it has the built in Nixie tube frequency > counter. I may end up parting these out, unless someone wants to give > me scrap/parts/shipping value (from 10512). It is a bit rough, so it > is a bit of a project. 567, I don't think I've even heard of that model. Built-in frequency counter, neat! I might be interested in picking that up from you if you don't get any other takers. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Nov 12 17:47:47 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 18:47:47 -0500 Subject: GRI In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <348FF9F9-0061-4FF1-B10C-140B4A259EBC@neurotica.com> GenRad made LOTS of very high-end automated board testers as well, most of which were built around embedded Qbus PDP-11s. Many of them are still in service; I have a friend who runs a tidy business maintaining them. -Dave On Nov 12, 2009, at 6:32 PM, Dave Caroline wrote: > Around that time ish they were also making a digital tester, Bug hound > GR2220, I wonder if that was born to fix their computer etc > > Dave Caroline > > On Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 11:18 PM, William Donzelli > wrote: >> Speaking of classic test equipment... >> >> The circa-1970 GRI-99 minicomputer from GRI. What a bomb. I have to >> wonder how many sold, and if any are left. >> >> Was GRI an attempt by General Radio to get into the minicomputer >> fray? >> >> -- >> Will >> -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Nov 12 17:49:34 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 18:49:34 -0500 Subject: Shipping a Tek 'scope In-Reply-To: <165776.25952.qm@web82702.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <165776.25952.qm@web82702.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3D824CB2-7496-486A-BFCF-B9DF2C431FE8@neurotica.com> On Nov 12, 2009, at 6:34 PM, Bob Rosenbloom wrote: >>> Umm the world is round. I suspect all the big cleaning of old stuff >>> was done about 10 to 15 years ago, with the advent of digital >>> scopes. >> >> A digital oscilloscope is a completely different instrument with >> (mostly) different applications...they have not replaced analog >> scopes, and likely will not. It would be more correct to say >> "modern analog scopes have replaced 40-year-old tube-type analog >> scopes". >> > > I don't think you can even buy an analog scope from Tektronix or > Agilent any more. Digital really is taking over the scope market. You mean the entire TAS line has been discontinued? That must've JUST happened, as they were trying to sell me one just a few months ago. I guess I can get a kitchen sponge to replace my handtruck, as they're about as similar as analog and digital scopes. I guess we can blame the current crop of college-boy "engineers" who automatically think "obsolete" when they hear "analog". -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Nov 12 17:51:34 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 18:51:34 -0500 Subject: Shipping a Tek 'scope In-Reply-To: <4AFC2B27.24362.1D12A46@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4AF99E7E.60503@gmail.com>, <4AFC9463.2090606@jetnet.ab.ca>, <079139C4-E1A9-4B5F-A4DE-8AB7CF9443F1@neurotica.com> <4AFC2B27.24362.1D12A46@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <109FFE53-6402-4091-B38F-35EA8DFF985D@neurotica.com> On Nov 12, 2009, at 6:35 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> A digital oscilloscope is a completely different instrument with >> (mostly) different applications...they have not replaced analog >> scopes, and likely will not. It would be more correct to say "modern >> analog scopes have replaced 40-year-old tube-type analog scopes". > > You can say that again. While I don't miss fussing with the old > storage-tube scopes, a good analog scope is still a very valuable > tool (mine is an old Tek 465). I wouldn't mind owning a 7000 series > unit with a nice palette of plugins, but I suspect those are still in > high demand and command real money. 770x scopes are relatively cheap, but a 790x in good shape will set you back may hundreds of dollars. The good thing is that they're practically indestructible. I use a gorgeous, very compact Tek TDS3012 digital oscilloscope much of the time, but when something "just doesn't look right", I use a 2465A. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From pcw at mesanet.com Thu Nov 12 17:57:44 2009 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 15:57:44 -0800 (PST) Subject: Shipping a Tek 'scope In-Reply-To: <3F205B36-1E19-4F57-9D71-0245A1A5FE95@neurotica.com> References: <4AF99E7E.60503@gmail.com> <4AFC8C0E.4070701@gmail.com> <4AFC9463.2090606@jetnet.ab.ca> <3F205B36-1E19-4F57-9D71-0245A1A5FE95@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 12 Nov 2009, Dave McGuire wrote: > Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 18:46:34 -0500 > From: Dave McGuire > Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Subject: Re: Shipping a Tek 'scope > > On Nov 12, 2009, at 6:13 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >>> Umm the world is round. I suspect all the big cleaning of old stuff >>> was done about 10 to 15 years ago, with the advent of digital scopes. >> >> In the past six months, I have come across (in mostly different >> locations!) EIGHT different tube type Tek scopes. I will likely only >> keep the 565 machine, as all good 70s mainframe shops had a Tek on a >> cart tucked away somewhere. > > You, sir, are blessed with being in the right part of the country to get > interesting gear cheap. The best I can hope for around here is old VCRs and > last year's Pentiums. And yes, I DO know how to find stuff...there's just > not any here. > >> Just a few days ago I came into a 535A and a 567. The 567 is a little >> bit of an oddball, as it has the built in Nixie tube frequency >> counter. I may end up parting these out, unless someone wants to give >> me scrap/parts/shipping value (from 10512). It is a bit rough, so it >> is a bit of a project. > > 567, I don't think I've even heard of that model. Built-in frequency > counter, neat! I might be interested in picking that up from you if you > don't get any other takers. > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire > Port Charlotte, FL Dont think its frequency counter but a voltmeter/comparator widget that can measure amplitude/risetime etc when used with sampling plugins. Has go/nogo outputs, probably intended as part of a automated test system. Peter Wallace From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Nov 12 18:04:28 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 19:04:28 -0500 Subject: Shipping a Tek 'scope In-Reply-To: References: <4AF99E7E.60503@gmail.com> <4AFC8C0E.4070701@gmail.com> <4AFC9463.2090606@jetnet.ab.ca> <3F205B36-1E19-4F57-9D71-0245A1A5FE95@neurotica.com> Message-ID: > Dont think its frequency counter but a voltmeter/comparator widget that can > measure amplitude/risetime etc when used with sampling plugins. Has go/nogo > outputs, probably intended as part of a automated test system. I think you might be right there. I will take a look at it tomorrow. -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Nov 12 18:10:50 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 19:10:50 -0500 Subject: GRI In-Reply-To: <4AFC2D54.24482.1D9AC41@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4AFC2D54.24482.1D9AC41@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > GRI--Newton, Mass--I thought, was a firm not affiliated with anyone. The advert in an old Datamation has the fine print "part of GR Industries". GenRad at the time was an almost sunken ship (there is such a thing as being too conservative in the test equipment market!), and I have to think it was a mad attempt to bail out the water. -- Will From technobug at comcast.net Thu Nov 12 18:35:04 2009 From: technobug at comcast.net (CRC) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 17:35:04 -0700 Subject: Shipping a Tek 'scope In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <211232ED-E34B-4679-913D-BEE87A8EDA70@comcast.net> On Thu, 12 Nov 2009 15:35:03 -0800, Chuck Guzis wrote: > [...] > You can say that again. While I don't miss fussing with the old > storage-tube scopes, a good analog scope is still a very valuable > tool (mine is an old Tek 465). I wouldn't mind owning a 7000 series > unit with a nice palette of plugins, but I suspect those are still in > high demand and command real money. > > --Chuck On Thu, 12 Nov 2009 18:51:34 -0500, Dave McGuire wrote: > 770x scopes are relatively cheap, but a 790x in good shape will > set you back may hundreds of dollars. The good thing is that they're > practically indestructible. > [...] I've seen quite a few 770x and 79xx scopes come through my local scraper in the last few years and haven't sold. Right now, the gold value in these beasts are worth more than what people are willing to pay and almost all are hitting the scrap bin. As a house warmer I keep a 7944 around - a two beam unit that will display 8 inputs, but use a Tek 2465B when I need the speed. CRC From cclist at sydex.com Thu Nov 12 19:00:56 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 17:00:56 -0800 Subject: Shipping a Tek 'scope In-Reply-To: <211232ED-E34B-4679-913D-BEE87A8EDA70@comcast.net> References: , <211232ED-E34B-4679-913D-BEE87A8EDA70@comcast.net> Message-ID: <4AFC3F48.24450.21FCBAB@cclist.sydex.com> On 12 Nov 2009 at 17:35, CRC wrote: > I've seen quite a few 770x and 79xx scopes come through my local > scraper in the last few years and haven't sold. Right now, the gold > value in these beasts are worth more than what people are willing to > pay and almost all are hitting the scrap bin. As a house warmer I keep > a 7944 around - a two beam unit that will display 8 inputs, but use a > Tek 2465B when I need the speed. A shame--I remember putting in a lot of hours with the logic analyzer plugin--it was amazingly useful, even when compared to the dedicated HP analyzers of the 70s. --Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Nov 12 19:24:08 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 20:24:08 -0500 Subject: Shipping a Tek 'scope In-Reply-To: <211232ED-E34B-4679-913D-BEE87A8EDA70@comcast.net> References: <211232ED-E34B-4679-913D-BEE87A8EDA70@comcast.net> Message-ID: <8704A9C2-14D8-42C3-96E8-20EC283E2294@neurotica.com> On Nov 12, 2009, at 7:35 PM, CRC wrote: >> [...] >> You can say that again. While I don't miss fussing with the old >> storage-tube scopes, a good analog scope is still a very valuable >> tool (mine is an old Tek 465). I wouldn't mind owning a 7000 series >> unit with a nice palette of plugins, but I suspect those are still in >> high demand and command real money. >> >> --Chuck > > On Thu, 12 Nov 2009 18:51:34 -0500, Dave McGuire wrote: > >> 770x scopes are relatively cheap, but a 790x in good shape will >> set you back may hundreds of dollars. The good thing is that they're >> practically indestructible. >> [...] > > I've seen quite a few 770x and 79xx scopes come through my local > scraper in the last few years and haven't sold. Right now, the gold > value in these beasts are worth more than what people are willing > to pay and almost all are hitting the scrap bin. As a house warmer > I keep a 7944 around - a two beam unit that will display 8 inputs, > but use a Tek 2465B when I need the speed. They still fetch big bucks on eBay and through brokers. Anyone scrapping them is a fool. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From curt at atarimuseum.com Thu Nov 12 19:27:31 2009 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 20:27:31 -0500 Subject: GRI In-Reply-To: <348FF9F9-0061-4FF1-B10C-140B4A259EBC@neurotica.com> References: <348FF9F9-0061-4FF1-B10C-140B4A259EBC@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4AFCB603.5060204@atarimuseum.com> Anybody have a Genrad 6500 development system they'd like to trade or sell ? Curt Dave McGuire wrote: > > GenRad made LOTS of very high-end automated board testers as well, > most of which were built around embedded Qbus PDP-11s. Many of them > are still in service; I have a friend who runs a tidy business > maintaining them. > > -Dave > > On Nov 12, 2009, at 6:32 PM, Dave Caroline wrote: >> Around that time ish they were also making a digital tester, Bug hound >> GR2220, I wonder if that was born to fix their computer etc >> >> Dave Caroline >> >> On Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 11:18 PM, William Donzelli >> wrote: >>> Speaking of classic test equipment... >>> >>> The circa-1970 GRI-99 minicomputer from GRI. What a bomb. I have to >>> wonder how many sold, and if any are left. >>> >>> Was GRI an attempt by General Radio to get into the minicomputer fray? >>> >>> -- >>> Will >>> > > From brianlanning at gmail.com Thu Nov 12 19:49:07 2009 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 19:49:07 -0600 Subject: apple documentary and huge apple collection In-Reply-To: <4a15f9590911121526i27a8172ev78377163a2abdd46@mail.gmail.com> References: <4AFC2690.7050900@gmail.com> <6dbe3c380911121333j42283759t4629236db0899973@mail.gmail.com> <6dbe3c380911121359i4a1b90a7n2653aa451a996884@mail.gmail.com> <4a15f9590911121526i27a8172ev78377163a2abdd46@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6dbe3c380911121749k46bd11c9s661f9ecffc77e8c9@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 5:26 PM, Alexandre Souza wrote: > It remembers me how HARD is to find a IIGS here in Brazil. Even a > motherboard would help. > > BTW, anyone with a spare Ramworks II or Ramworks III? :o) > Or how about a 2e/2gs scsi controller? There are great many machines that aren't here either. I'd like to have a Sharp X68000. But that's unlikely to happen here. If one came up on ebay, I'm sure it would have a ridiculous price. :-) I just picked up a spare 2gs from ebay for the princely sum of $8. lol Some of them go for quite a bit though if they include all the accessories. brian From cclist at sydex.com Thu Nov 12 20:17:02 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 18:17:02 -0800 Subject: GRI In-Reply-To: References: , <4AFC2D54.24482.1D9AC41@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4AFC511E.14431.2657941@cclist.sydex.com> On 12 Nov 2009 at 19:10, William Donzelli wrote: > > GRI--Newton, Mass--I thought, was a firm not affiliated with anyone. > > The advert in an old Datamation has the fine print "part of GR > Industries". > > GenRad at the time was an almost sunken ship (there is such a thing as > being too conservative in the test equipment market!), and I have to > think it was a mad attempt to bail out the water. Will, I think it's the wrong "GR", but an interesting story. From http://www.cs.uiowa.edu/~jones/arch/risc/ "Sidenote: Saul Dinman explained in 2003 that GRI was originally General Research Corporation, a private Massachussetts company; when it went public, it had name conflicts with a pre-existing General Research, and then with General Radio as it hunted for a non- conflicting name. Under the name GRI, the company was eventually acquired by venture capitalists in North Carolina, and then by a display manufacturer that wanted to buy their OEM supplier, and finally by Analog Devices. The GRI processor architecture was one of the first bus-oriented architectures built using a printed-circuit backplane. Thousands of GRI-909 systems were sold on an OEM basis, mostly in the industrial control sector. Had marketing and capitalization worked out differently, the GRI-909 might have been an effective competitor for the Data General Nova, another DEC spinoff." So I guess that any remnants of GRI might be in AD's archives... Cheers, Chuck From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Nov 12 21:06:14 2009 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 19:06:14 -0800 Subject: GRI In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4AFCCD26.4090402@bitsavers.org> William Donzelli wrote: > Was GRI an attempt by General Radio to get into the minicomputer fray? > No, it was a company started by Saul Denman after he left DEC. Saul came up with the PDP-8/S Did some GRI stuff turn up? From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Nov 12 21:16:44 2009 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 19:16:44 -0800 Subject: GRI In-Reply-To: <4AFCB603.5060204@atarimuseum.com> References: <348FF9F9-0061-4FF1-B10C-140B4A259EBC@neurotica.com> <4AFCB603.5060204@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <4AFCCF9C.3000400@bitsavers.org> Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > Anybody have a Genrad 6500 development system they'd like to trade or > sell ? > The 6500 development system was designed by a company called Datakit. Home-grown OS, and hard sectored floppies, as I recall. From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Nov 12 21:21:36 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 22:21:36 -0500 Subject: GRI In-Reply-To: <4AFCCD26.4090402@bitsavers.org> References: <4AFCCD26.4090402@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: > No, it was a company started by Saul Denman after he left DEC. Saul > came up with the PDP-8/S > > Did some GRI stuff turn up? Nope, just some old Datamations with the advert. I find it interesting that the ad does not make it clear at all that the company is or is not associated with GenRad. -- Will From curt at atarimuseum.com Thu Nov 12 21:30:14 2009 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 22:30:14 -0500 Subject: GRI In-Reply-To: <4AFCCF9C.3000400@bitsavers.org> References: <348FF9F9-0061-4FF1-B10C-140B4A259EBC@neurotica.com> <4AFCB603.5060204@atarimuseum.com> <4AFCCF9C.3000400@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4AFCD2C6.2050904@atarimuseum.com> Hi Al, Thanks for the heads up and info.... Curt Al Kossow wrote: > Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: >> Anybody have a Genrad 6500 development system they'd like to trade or >> sell ? >> > > The 6500 development system was designed by a company called Datakit. > Home-grown > OS, and hard sectored floppies, as I recall. > > From teoz at neo.rr.com Thu Nov 12 22:04:41 2009 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 23:04:41 -0500 Subject: apple documentary and huge apple collection References: <4AFC2690.7050900@gmail.com> <6dbe3c380911121333j42283759t4629236db0899973@mail.gmail.com><6dbe3c380911121359i4a1b90a7n2653aa451a996884@mail.gmail.com><4a15f9590911121526i27a8172ev78377163a2abdd46@mail.gmail.com> <6dbe3c380911121749k46bd11c9s661f9ecffc77e8c9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brian Lanning" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2009 8:49 PM Subject: Re: apple documentary and huge apple collection > On Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 5:26 PM, Alexandre Souza > wrote: > >> It remembers me how HARD is to find a IIGS here in Brazil. Even a >> motherboard would help. >> >> BTW, anyone with a spare Ramworks II or Ramworks III? :o) >> > > Or how about a 2e/2gs scsi controller? > I just picked up a spare 2gs from ebay for the princely sum of $8. lol > Some of them go for quite a bit though if they include all the > accessories. > > brian Depends what you do on the IIgs. If you just want to play games or a few old apps you can get by with a simple system, monitor, keyboard, dual 3.5" and dual 5.25". I have a Transwarp IIgs, 8mb RAM card, rev C SCSI card, and I mostly just boot from floppy and play games. All the extras are nice if you use GS/OS and want to transfer images and files around (and read HFS partitions or network with a Mac), but if you have an old Mac you can make usable disks there. You can still find systems on freecycle if you post a wanted, they will most likely be basic setups (teachers seem to snag them for their kids and then get rid of them when the kids get older). From jws at jwsss.com Thu Nov 12 13:00:38 2009 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 11:00:38 -0800 Subject: Walkthrough of a small datacenter 1992 In-Reply-To: <14071583.61257991474405.JavaMail.root@ranma.com> References: <14071583.61257991474405.JavaMail.root@ranma.com> Message-ID: <4AFC5B56.9050309@jwsss.com> rmg at ranma.com wrote: > Just ran across this list. I thought I'd share this with all of you. > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=am60T-p7f1E > > This was when I was working at NASA Ames -- NASA Science Internet (NSIPO), Building N-233. I had a Sony Hi8 I just had bought and was testing out. I'm surprised I kept this footage. > > Enjoy! > > Rob Gutierrez > Very interesting footage to have. I have a friend who may have one of the Micom boxes. We used one in our office for terminal access. Also interesting is that one seemed to have to waste paper to keep the systems running. I suppose most dec systems had printing consoles and had to be running, from the stories that are out there about systems where the consoles quit. I noticed the disk drives as well, still have some fujitsu drives, as well as the CDC SMD drives that appeared to be in the racks. thanks for posting it. From dave09 at dunfield.com Fri Nov 13 08:03:56 2009 From: dave09 at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2009 09:03:56 -0500 Subject: Compupro 8/16 system avail. in San Francisco Bay area Message-ID: <14E4FC3534B2@dunfield.com> Apparently headed for recycling if no takers are found (so act soon). Contact me off-list for more info. Dave -- dave09 (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From dave09 at dunfield.com Fri Nov 13 08:03:56 2009 From: dave09 at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2009 09:03:56 -0500 Subject: PET, Sinclair, Unitron (AppleII clone), TI-99/4As avail near Toronto. Message-ID: <14E4FBE73756@dunfield.com> 1 Commodore 8032 computer 1 Commodore 8250M dual floppy drive 1 timex/sinclair M330 computer 1 Unitron Apple clone with single floppy drive,Applesoft tutorial & Apple lle owners manual 2 Texas Instr. TI-94/4A computers with two power supplies, one synthesizer unit with software & manuals. Located in Richmond Hill, north of Toronto (Ontario, Canada). Apparently headed for recycling if no takers are found (so act soon). Contact me off-list for more information. Dave -- dave09 (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Fri Nov 13 07:22:04 2009 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza) Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2009 11:22:04 -0200 Subject: PET, Sinclair, Unitron (AppleII clone), TI-99/4As avail near Toronto. In-Reply-To: <14E4FBE73756@dunfield.com> References: <14E4FBE73756@dunfield.com> Message-ID: <4a15f9590911130522h74bc0405t348103331436853b@mail.gmail.com> Wow, Unitron AP II :oD This is the best brazilian apple clone :oD On Fri, Nov 13, 2009 at 12:03 PM, Dave Dunfield wrote: > 1 Commodore 8032 computer > 1 Commodore 8250M dual floppy drive > 1 timex/sinclair M330 computer > 1 Unitron Apple clone with single floppy drive,Applesoft tutorial > & Apple lle owners manual > 2 Texas Instr. TI-94/4A computers with two power supplies, one > synthesizer unit with software & manuals. > > From shumaker at att.net Fri Nov 13 09:55:57 2009 From: shumaker at att.net (shumaker at att.net) Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2009 15:55:57 +0000 Subject: Osborn 1 systems available in OR Message-ID: <111320091555.5993.4AFD818C000E88970000176922230706129B0A02D29B9B0EBF9D0A050E039A089C@att.net> 2 Osborn 1 systems available in the Corvallis (actually Albany) OR area.. One gets a screen prompt, one does not (NFI) seller wants $20 each but suspect he's flexible. Needs them gone so he can move. there is apparently SOME software/docs to go with. anyone interested, contact me off list for info steve From ken at seefried.com Fri Nov 13 13:00:20 2009 From: ken at seefried.com (KJ Seefried III) Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2009 19:00:20 +0000 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 75, Issue 17 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <347454976-1258138810-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-664526500-@bda186.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> way somewhere. > > You, sir, are blessed with being in the right part of the country to get > interesting gear cheap. The best I can hope for around here is old VCRs and > last year's Pentiums. And yes, I DO know how to find st Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-request at classiccmp.org Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2009 12:00:02 To: Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 75, Issue 17 Send cctalk mailing list submissions to cctalk at classiccmp.org To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://www.classiccmp.org/mailman/listinfo/cctalk or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to cctalk-request at classiccmp.org You can reach the person managing the list at cctalk-owner at classiccmp.org When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of cctalk digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Re: Shipping a Tek 'scope (Peter C. Wallace) 2. Re: Shipping a Tek 'scope (William Donzelli) 3. Re: GRI (William Donzelli) 4. Re: Shipping a Tek 'scope (CRC) 5. Re: Shipping a Tek 'scope (Chuck Guzis) 6. Re: Shipping a Tek 'scope (Dave McGuire) 7. Re: GRI (Curt @ Atari Museum) 8. Re: apple documentary and huge apple collection (Brian Lanning) 9. Re: GRI (Chuck Guzis) 10. Re: GRI (Al Kossow) 11. Re: GRI (Al Kossow) 12. Re: GRI (William Donzelli) 13. Re: GRI (Curt @ Atari Museum) 14. Re: apple documentary and huge apple collection (Teo Zenios) 15. Re: Walkthrough of a small datacenter 1992 (jim s) 16. Compupro 8/16 system avail. in San Francisco Bay area (Dave Dunfield) 17. PET, Sinclair, Unitron (AppleII clone), TI-99/4As avail near Toronto. (Dave Dunfield) 18. Re: PET, Sinclair, Unitron (AppleII clone), TI-99/4As avail near Toronto. (Alexandre Souza) 19. Osborn 1 systems available in OR (shumaker at att.net) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 15:57:44 -0800 (PST) From: "Peter C. Wallace" Subject: Re: Shipping a Tek 'scope To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Message-ID: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed On Thu, 12 Nov 2009, Dave McGuire wrote: > Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 18:46:34 -0500 > From: Dave McGuire > Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Subject: Re: Shipping a Tek 'scope > > On Nov 12, 2009, at 6:13 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >>> Umm the world is round. I suspect all the big cleaning of old stuff >>> was done about 10 to 15 years ago, with the advent of digital scopes. >> >> In the past six months, I have come across (in mostly different >> locations!) EIGHT different tube type Tek scopes. I will likely only >> keep the 565 machine, as all good 70s mainframe shops had a Tek on a >> cart tucked away somewhere. > > You, sir, are blessed with being in the right part of the country to get > interesting gear cheap. The best I can hope for around here is old VCRs and > last year's Pentiums. And yes, I DO know how to find stuff...there's just > not any here. > >> Just a few days ago I came into a 535A and a 567. The 567 is a little >> bit of an oddball, as it has the built in Nixie tube frequency >> counter. I may end up parting these out, unless someone wants to give >> me scrap/parts/shipping value (from 10512). It is a bit rough, so it >> is a bit of a project. > > 567, I don't think I've even heard of that model. Built-in frequency > counter, neat! I might be interested in picking that up from you if you > don't get any other takers. > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire > Port Charlotte, FL Dont think its frequency counter but a voltmeter/comparator widget that can measure amplitude/risetime etc when used with sampling plugins. Has go/nogo outputs, probably intended as part of a automated test system. Peter Wallace ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 19:04:28 -0500 From: William Donzelli Subject: Re: Shipping a Tek 'scope To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > Dont think its frequency counter but a voltmeter/comparator widget that can > measure amplitude/risetime etc when used with sampling plugins. Has go/nogo > outputs, probably intended as part of a automated test system. I think you might be right there. I will take a look at it tomorrow. -- Will ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 19:10:50 -0500 From: William Donzelli Subject: Re: GRI To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > GRI--Newton, Mass--I thought, was a firm not affiliated with anyone. The advert in an old Datamation has the fine print "part of GR Industries". GenRad at the time was an almost sunken ship (there is such a thing as being too conservative in the test equipment market!), and I have to think it was a mad attempt to bail out the water. -- Will ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 17:35:04 -0700 From: CRC Subject: Re: Shipping a Tek 'scope To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Message-ID: <211232ED-E34B-4679-913D-BEE87A8EDA70 at comcast.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes On Thu, 12 Nov 2009 15:35:03 -0800, Chuck Guzis wrote: > [...] > You can say that again. While I don't miss fussing with the old > storage-tube scopes, a good analog scope is still a very valuable > tool (mine is an old Tek 465). I wouldn't mind owning a 7000 series > unit with a nice palette of plugins, but I suspect those are still in > high demand and command real money. > > --Chuck On Thu, 12 Nov 2009 18:51:34 -0500, Dave McGuire wrote: > 770x scopes are relatively cheap, but a 790x in good shape will > set you back may hundreds of dollars. The good thing is that they're > practically indestructible. > [...] I've seen quite a few 770x and 79xx scopes come through my local scraper in the last few years and haven't sold. Right now, the gold value in these beasts are worth more than what people are willing to pay and almost all are hitting the scrap bin. As a house warmer I keep a 7944 around - a two beam unit that will display 8 inputs, but use a Tek 2465B when I need the speed. CRC ------------------------------ Message: 5 Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 17:00:56 -0800 From: "Chuck Guzis" Subject: Re: Shipping a Tek 'scope To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Message-ID: <4AFC3F48.24450.21FCBAB at cclist.sydex.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII On 12 Nov 2009 at 17:35, CRC wrote: > I've seen quite a few 770x and 79xx scopes come through my local > scraper in the last few years and haven't sold. Right now, the gold > value in these beasts are worth more than what people are willing to > pay and almost all are hitting the scrap bin. As a house warmer I keep > a 7944 around - a two beam unit that will display 8 inputs, but use a > Tek 2465B when I need the speed. A shame--I remember putting in a lot of hours with the logic analyzer plugin--it was amazingly useful, even when compared to the dedicated HP analyzers of the 70s. --Chuck ------------------------------ Message: 6 Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 20:24:08 -0500 From: Dave McGuire Subject: Re: Shipping a Tek 'scope To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Message-ID: <8704A9C2-14D8-42C3-96E8-20EC283E2294 at neurotica.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed On Nov 12, 2009, at 7:35 PM, CRC wrote: >> [...] >> You can say that again. While I don't miss fussing with the old >> storage-tube scopes, a good analog scope is still a very valuable >> tool (mine is an old Tek 465). I wouldn't mind owning a 7000 series >> unit with a nice palette of plugins, but I suspect those are still in >> high demand and command real money. >> >> --Chuck > > On Thu, 12 Nov 2009 18:51:34 -0500, Dave McGuire wrote: > >> 770x scopes are relatively cheap, but a 790x in good shape will >> set you back may hundreds of dollars. The good thing is that they're >> practically indestructible. >> [...] > > I've seen quite a few 770x and 79xx scopes come through my local > scraper in the last few years and haven't sold. Right now, the gold > value in these beasts are worth more than what people are willing > to pay and almost all are hitting the scrap bin. As a house warmer > I keep a 7944 around - a two beam unit that will display 8 inputs, > but use a Tek 2465B when I need the speed. They still fetch big bucks on eBay and through brokers. Anyone scrapping them is a fool. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL ------------------------------ Message: 7 Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 20:27:31 -0500 From: "Curt @ Atari Museum" Subject: Re: GRI To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Message-ID: <4AFCB603.5060204 at atarimuseum.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Anybody have a Genrad 6500 development system they'd like to trade or sell ? Curt Dave McGuire wrote: > > GenRad made LOTS of very high-end automated board testers as well, > most of which were built around embedded Qbus PDP-11s. Many of them > are still in service; I have a friend who runs a tidy business > maintaining them. > > -Dave > > On Nov 12, 2009, at 6:32 PM, Dave Caroline wrote: >> Around that time ish they were also making a digital tester, Bug hound >> GR2220, I wonder if that was born to fix their computer etc >> >> Dave Caroline >> >> On Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 11:18 PM, William Donzelli >> wrote: >>> Speaking of classic test equipment... >>> >>> The circa-1970 GRI-99 minicomputer from GRI. What a bomb. I have to >>> wonder how many sold, and if any are left. >>> >>> Was GRI an attempt by General Radio to get into the minicomputer fray? >>> >>> -- >>> Will >>> > > ------------------------------ Message: 8 Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 19:49:07 -0600 From: Brian Lanning Subject: Re: apple documentary and huge apple collection To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Message-ID: <6dbe3c380911121749k46bd11c9s661f9ecffc77e8c9 at mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 5:26 PM, Alexandre Souza wrote: > It remembers me how HARD is to find a IIGS here in Brazil. Even a > motherboard would help. > > BTW, anyone with a spare Ramworks II or Ramworks III? :o) > Or how about a 2e/2gs scsi controller? There are great many machines that aren't here either. I'd like to have a Sharp X68000. But that's unlikely to happen here. If one came up on ebay, I'm sure it would have a ridiculous price. :-) I just picked up a spare 2gs from ebay for the princely sum of $8. lol Some of them go for quite a bit though if they include all the accessories. brian ------------------------------ Message: 9 Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 18:17:02 -0800 From: "Chuck Guzis" Subject: Re: GRI To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Message-ID: <4AFC511E.14431.2657941 at cclist.sydex.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII On 12 Nov 2009 at 19:10, William Donzelli wrote: > > GRI--Newton, Mass--I thought, was a firm not affiliated with anyone. > > The advert in an old Datamation has the fine print "part of GR > Industries". > > GenRad at the time was an almost sunken ship (there is such a thing as > being too conservative in the test equipment market!), and I have to > think it was a mad attempt to bail out the water. Will, I think it's the wrong "GR", but an interesting story. From http://www.cs.uiowa.edu/~jones/arch/risc/ "Sidenote: Saul Dinman explained in 2003 that GRI was originally General Research Corporation, a private Massachussetts company; when it went public, it had name conflicts with a pre-existing General Research, and then with General Radio as it hunted for a non- conflicting name. Under the name GRI, the company was eventually acquired by venture capitalists in North Carolina, and then by a display manufacturer that wanted to buy their OEM supplier, and finally by Analog Devices. The GRI processor architecture was one of the first bus-oriented architectures built using a printed-circuit backplane. Thousands of GRI-909 systems were sold on an OEM basis, mostly in the industrial control sector. Had marketing and capitalization worked out differently, the GRI-909 might have been an effective competitor for the Data General Nova, another DEC spinoff." So I guess that any remnants of GRI might be in AD's archives... Cheers, Chuck ------------------------------ Message: 10 Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 19:06:14 -0800 From: Al Kossow Subject: Re: GRI To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Message-ID: <4AFCCD26.4090402 at bitsavers.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed William Donzelli wrote: > Was GRI an attempt by General Radio to get into the minicomputer fray? > No, it was a company started by Saul Denman after he left DEC. Saul came up with the PDP-8/S Did some GRI stuff turn up? ------------------------------ Message: 11 Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 19:16:44 -0800 From: Al Kossow Subject: Re: GRI To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Message-ID: <4AFCCF9C.3000400 at bitsavers.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > Anybody have a Genrad 6500 development system they'd like to trade or > sell ? > The 6500 development system was designed by a company called Datakit. Home-grown OS, and hard sectored floppies, as I recall. ------------------------------ Message: 12 Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 22:21:36 -0500 From: William Donzelli Subject: Re: GRI To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > No, it was a company started by Saul Denman after he left DEC. Saul > came up with the PDP-8/S > > Did some GRI stuff turn up? Nope, just some old Datamations with the advert. I find it interesting that the ad does not make it clear at all that the company is or is not associated with GenRad. -- Will ------------------------------ Message: 13 Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 22:30:14 -0500 From: "Curt @ Atari Museum" Subject: Re: GRI To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Message-ID: <4AFCD2C6.2050904 at atarimuseum.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Hi Al, Thanks for the heads up and info.... Curt Al Kossow wrote: > Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: >> Anybody have a Genrad 6500 development system they'd like to trade or >> sell ? >> > > The 6500 development system was designed by a company called Datakit. > Home-grown > OS, and hard sectored floppies, as I recall. > > ------------------------------ Message: 14 Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 23:04:41 -0500 From: "Teo Zenios" Subject: Re: apple documentary and huge apple collection To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brian Lanning" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2009 8:49 PM Subject: Re: apple documentary and huge apple collection > On Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 5:26 PM, Alexandre Souza > wrote: > >> It remembers me how HARD is to find a IIGS here in Brazil. Even a >> motherboard would help. >> >> BTW, anyone with a spare Ramworks II or Ramworks III? :o) >> > > Or how about a 2e/2gs scsi controller? > I just picked up a spare 2gs from ebay for the princely sum of $8. lol > Some of them go for quite a bit though if they include all the > accessories. > > brian Depends what you do on the IIgs. If you just want to play games or a few old apps you can get by with a simple system, monitor, keyboard, dual 3.5" and dual 5.25". I have a Transwarp IIgs, 8mb RAM card, rev C SCSI card, and I mostly just boot from floppy and play games. All the extras are nice if you use GS/OS and want to transfer images and files around (and read HFS partitions or network with a Mac), but if you have an old Mac you can make usable disks there. You can still find systems on freecycle if you post a wanted, they will most likely be basic setups (teachers seem to snag them for their kids and then get rid of them when the kids get older). ------------------------------ Message: 15 Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 11:00:38 -0800 From: jim s Subject: Re: Walkthrough of a small datacenter 1992 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Message-ID: <4AFC5B56.9050309 at jwsss.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed rmg at ranma.com wrote: > Just ran across this list. I thought I'd share this with all of you. > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=am60T-p7f1E > > This was when I was working at NASA Ames -- NASA Science Internet (NSIPO), Building N-233. I had a Sony Hi8 I just had bought and was testing out. I'm surprised I kept this footage. > > Enjoy! > > Rob Gutierrez > Very interesting footage to have. I have a friend who may have one of the Micom boxes. We used one in our office for terminal access. Also interesting is that one seemed to have to waste paper to keep the systems running. I suppose most dec systems had printing consoles and had to be running, from the stories that are out there about systems where the consoles quit. I noticed the disk drives as well, still have some fujitsu drives, as well as the CDC SMD drives that appeared to be in the racks. thanks for posting it. ------------------------------ Message: 16 Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2009 09:03:56 -0500 From: "Dave Dunfield" Subject: Compupro 8/16 system avail. in San Francisco Bay area To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Message-ID: <14E4FC3534B2 at dunfield.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Apparently headed for recycling if no takers are found (so act soon). Contact me off-list for more info. Dave -- dave09 (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html ------------------------------ Message: 17 Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2009 09:03:56 -0500 From: "Dave Dunfield" Subject: PET, Sinclair, Unitron (AppleII clone), TI-99/4As avail near Toronto. To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Message-ID: <14E4FBE73756 at dunfield.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII 1 Commodore 8032 computer 1 Commodore 8250M dual floppy drive 1 timex/sinclair M330 computer 1 Unitron Apple clone with single floppy drive,Applesoft tutorial & Apple lle owners manual 2 Texas Instr. TI-94/4A computers with two power supplies, one synthesizer unit with software & manuals. Located in Richmond Hill, north of Toronto (Ontario, Canada). Apparently headed for recycling if no takers are found (so act soon). Contact me off-list for more information. Dave -- dave09 (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html ------------------------------ Message: 18 Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2009 11:22:04 -0200 From: Alexandre Souza Subject: Re: PET, Sinclair, Unitron (AppleII clone), TI-99/4As avail near Toronto. To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Message-ID: <4a15f9590911130522h74bc0405t348103331436853b at mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Wow, Unitron AP II :oD This is the best brazilian apple clone :oD On Fri, Nov 13, 2009 at 12:03 PM, Dave Dunfield wrote: > 1 Commodore 8032 computer > 1 Commodore 8250M dual floppy drive > 1 timex/sinclair M330 computer > 1 Unitron Apple clone with single floppy drive,Applesoft tutorial > & Apple lle owners manual > 2 Texas Instr. TI-94/4A computers with two power supplies, one > synthesizer unit with software & manuals. > > ------------------------------ Message: 19 Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2009 15:55:57 +0000 From: shumaker at att.net Subject: Osborn 1 systems available in OR To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Message-ID: <111320091555.5993.4AFD818C000E88970000176922230706129B0A02D29B9B0EBF9D0A050E039A089C at att.net> 2 Osborn 1 systems available in the Corvallis (actually Albany) OR area.. One gets a screen prompt, one does not (NFI) seller wants $20 each but suspect he's flexible. Needs them gone so he can move. there is apparently SOME software/docs to go with. anyone interested, contact me off list for info steve End of cctalk Digest, Vol 75, Issue 17 ************************************** From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Nov 13 13:22:19 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2009 14:22:19 -0500 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 75, Issue 17 In-Reply-To: <347454976-1258138810-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-664526500-@bda186.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> References: <347454976-1258138810-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-664526500-@bda186.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Message-ID: > way somewhere. >> >> You, sir, are blessed with being in the right part of the country to get >> interesting gear cheap. ?The best I can hope for around here is old VCRs and >> last year's Pentiums. ?And yes, I DO know how to find st ??? Anyway, three of those Tek scopes came from places distant - one in Abilene, KS, one in Southern Illinois somewhere, and one north of Boulder, CO. The things are everywhere. -- Will From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Nov 13 13:27:55 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2009 14:27:55 -0500 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 75, Issue 17 In-Reply-To: References: <347454976-1258138810-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-664526500-@bda186.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Message-ID: <63323E44-3573-4B4A-A83B-A826C75CB1B6@neurotica.com> On Nov 13, 2009, at 2:22 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >>> You, sir, are blessed with being in the right part of the country >>> to get >>> interesting gear cheap. The best I can hope for around here is >>> old VCRs and >>> last year's Pentiums. And yes, I DO know how to find st > > ??? > > Anyway, three of those Tek scopes came from places distant - one in > Abilene, KS, one in Southern Illinois somewhere, and one north of > Boulder, CO. > > The things are everywhere. WHERE?! [cue twilight zone music] -Dave > -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From dave09 at dunfield.com Fri Nov 13 16:51:33 2009 From: dave09 at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2009 17:51:33 -0500 Subject: Compupro and PET/UNITRON/TI etc. systems posted earlier Message-ID: <16C7F8603EE4@dunfield.com> Thanks to everyone who responded. I will be preparing a list of the responses received (in the order received) and forward them to the respective people with the systems, and they will take it from there. Sorry if my "contact me for more info" turned out to be misleading, I was hoping to have obtained permission to give out their contact info, however neither has responded yet, and apparently people from the list are getting impatient. At this point the best way for me to handle is to forward the messages I've received to the parties and let them handle it, as I have no further information to give out yet. Please stop sending emails asking if I've received your previous messages, if the systems are still available, or other questions - I know only what I posted. Thanks, Dave -- dave09 (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From jgessling at yahoo.com Fri Nov 13 19:59:59 2009 From: jgessling at yahoo.com (James Gessling) Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2009 17:59:59 -0800 (PST) Subject: DEC legacy event accounced in UK Message-ID: <677750.85170.qm@web31905.mail.mud.yahoo.com> >From comp.os.vms : http://wickensonline.co.uk/declegacy/ All I know is what I read on the web... Regards, Jim From pat at computer-refuge.org Fri Nov 13 22:15:03 2009 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2009 23:15:03 -0500 Subject: Shipping a Tek 'scope In-Reply-To: <3F205B36-1E19-4F57-9D71-0245A1A5FE95@neurotica.com> References: <4AF99E7E.60503@gmail.com> <4AFC8C0E.4070701@gmail.com> <4AFC9463.2090606@jetnet.ab.ca> <3F205B36-1E19-4F57-9D71-0245A1A5FE95@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4AFE2EC7.8000808@computer-refuge.org> Dave McGuire wrote: > On Nov 12, 2009, at 6:13 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >>> Umm the world is round. I suspect all the big cleaning of old stuff >>> was done about 10 to 15 years ago, with the advent of digital scopes. >> >> In the past six months, I have come across (in mostly different >> locations!) EIGHT different tube type Tek scopes. I will likely only >> keep the 565 machine, as all good 70s mainframe shops had a Tek on a >> cart tucked away somewhere. > > You, sir, are blessed with being in the right part of the country to > get interesting gear cheap. The best I can hope for around here is old > VCRs and last year's Pentiums. And yes, I DO know how to find > stuff...there's just not any here. "Time To Move," right? :) Pat From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Nov 13 22:34:10 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2009 23:34:10 -0500 Subject: Shipping a Tek 'scope In-Reply-To: <4AFE2EC7.8000808@computer-refuge.org> References: <4AF99E7E.60503@gmail.com> <4AFC8C0E.4070701@gmail.com> <4AFC9463.2090606@jetnet.ab.ca> <3F205B36-1E19-4F57-9D71-0245A1A5FE95@neurotica.com> <4AFE2EC7.8000808@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <43058CEA-6723-4FC3-98C7-AD6A5913984C@neurotica.com> On Nov 13, 2009, at 11:15 PM, Patrick Finnegan wrote: >>>> Umm the world is round. I suspect all the big cleaning of old >>>> stuff >>>> was done about 10 to 15 years ago, with the advent of digital >>>> scopes. >>> >>> In the past six months, I have come across (in mostly different >>> locations!) EIGHT different tube type Tek scopes. I will likely only >>> keep the 565 machine, as all good 70s mainframe shops had a Tek on a >>> cart tucked away somewhere. >> You, sir, are blessed with being in the right part of the >> country to get interesting gear cheap. The best I can hope for >> around here is old VCRs and last year's Pentiums. And yes, I DO >> know how to find stuff...there's just not any here. > > "Time To Move," right? :) For me, yes! But I'm planning to wait until my house is worth maybe just a hair more than I owe on it. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From snhirsch at gmail.com Sat Nov 14 15:21:09 2009 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 16:21:09 -0500 (EST) Subject: Parts bonanza Message-ID: Anyone within driving distance of Windsor, VT might want to get in touch with Brad Thompson at WinCycle: wincycle at wincycle.org They are nominally a computer recycler who handle the usual castoffs, dead notebooks, off-lease PCs, etc, etc. Recently, a local landlord gave them the entire parts inventory of a local manufacturing company who went bankrupt and abandoned it. They made the entire thing available to local hams and hobbyists for free (or a small donation if you really felt guilty). We went down with a couple of storage tubs and filled them to the brim with tubes of unused 74-series and CD-series logic, machine-pin sockets and more resistors and caps than you could even imagine. All of this is pre-surface-mount through-hole componentry. An entire afternoon's picking didn't really make a visible dent - there's that much stuff. I would estimate many hundreds of tubes of chips and sockets and tens of thousands of caps, resistors and other small parts. I would suspect we were looking at > $100,000 worth of components at original cost. When we left, he mentioned that they might do this again next Saturday. At some point, I'm sure they will sell whatever remains to an industrial auctioneer or serious flea-marketer. So if interested, I would suggest moving quickly. Steve -- From lynchaj at yahoo.com Sun Nov 15 15:40:54 2009 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 16:40:54 -0500 Subject: Motorola EXORset Message-ID: Hi! Does anyone have the schematics for the Motorola EXORset? If so, would you please either make a scan or look something up for me? I would like to know how the MC6840 PTM interfaces with the MC6809 CPU. Thanks and have a nice day! Andrew Lynch From hachti at hachti.de Sun Nov 15 17:31:52 2009 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 00:31:52 +0100 Subject: IC DEC8881 Message-ID: <4B008F68.3090604@hachti.de> Hi folks, I don't know if it's a fact of certain interest... I found a DEC M841 Omnibus printer interface with a Fairchild "F 7429DC" additionally stamped "DEC8881". As I think the DEC8881 is considered one of the harder to find chips, this could be interesting. I know that many of the DECxxx ICs are pin compatible to standard 74 TTL or Signetics 82 TTL devices so this could be found out by reading the TI data book as well. But I've heard of signal quality, speed and other selection issues making those a DECxxx IC. Perhaps that's a legend? Or at least partially? Best wishes, Philipp :-) p.S.: Here's a picture: http://pdp8.hachti.de?gallery/misc From cclist at sydex.com Sun Nov 15 18:33:09 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 16:33:09 -0800 Subject: IC DEC8881 In-Reply-To: <4B008F68.3090604@hachti.de> References: <4B008F68.3090604@hachti.de> Message-ID: <4B002D45.200.1CA606B@cclist.sydex.com> On 16 Nov 2009 at 0:31, Philipp Hachtmann wrote: > Hi folks, > > I don't know if it's a fact of certain interest... > > I found a DEC M841 Omnibus printer interface with a Fairchild "F > 7429DC" additionally stamped "DEC8881". As I think the DEC8881 is > considered one of the harder to find chips, this could be interesting. > I know that many of the DECxxx ICs are pin compatible to standard 74 > TTL or Signetics 82 TTL devices so this could be found out by reading > the TI data book as well. But I've heard of signal quality, speed and > other selection issues making those a DECxxx IC. Perhaps that's a > legend? Or at least partially? The part is labeled 7439DC, quad OC buffer. Other than a different pinout, how does this differ from a plain old 7438? --Chuck From afra at aurigae.demon.co.uk Sun Nov 15 18:54:54 2009 From: afra at aurigae.demon.co.uk (Phill Harvey-Smith) Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 00:54:54 +0000 Subject: IC DEC8881 In-Reply-To: <4B002D45.200.1CA606B@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4B008F68.3090604@hachti.de> <4B002D45.200.1CA606B@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4B00A2DE.5000209@aurigae.demon.co.uk> Chuck Guzis wrote: > The part is labeled 7439DC, quad OC buffer. > > Other than a different pinout, how does this differ from a plain old > 7438? Acording to my 1989 TI databook, the 7439 has "Garantted current sinking of 80ma", and "Garunteed fan out of 30 series 54/74 loads" Both of which may be needed if the thing is driving printer components. Cheers. Phill. -- Phill Harvey-Smith, Programmer, Hardware hacker, and general eccentric ! "You can twist perceptions, but reality won't budge" -- Rush. From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sun Nov 15 18:56:14 2009 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 16:56:14 -0800 Subject: IC DEC8881 References: <4B008F68.3090604@hachti.de> Message-ID: <4B00A32F.21EB05D3@cs.ubc.ca> Philipp Hachtmann wrote: > > Hi folks, > > I don't know if it's a fact of certain interest... > > I found a DEC M841 Omnibus printer interface with a Fairchild "F 7429DC" > additionally stamped "DEC8881". As I think the DEC8881 is considered one > of the harder to find chips, this could be interesting. I know that many > of the DECxxx ICs are pin compatible to standard 74 TTL or Signetics 82 > TTL devices so this could be found out by reading the TI data book as > well. But I've heard of signal quality, speed and other selection issues > making those a DECxxx IC. Perhaps that's a legend? Or at least partially? > > Best wishes, > > Philipp :-) > > p.S.: Here's a picture: http://pdp8.hachti.de?gallery/misc (Found the picture at: http://pdp8.hachti.de/?gallery/misc 7439 as Chuck said.) I find the 7439 in only the Fairchild books, doesn't appear in the TI or National books I have. One Fairchild book lists it as a line driver along with the Fairchild 96101 (9600 series: same pinout and drive capability, some diffs in the way the specs are presented). One line of speculation would be that DEC originally chose the 96101, internally named it the 8881, then Fairchild phased out the 9600 series as 7400 took over, but DEC needed to keep that chip going. From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sun Nov 15 19:08:07 2009 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 17:08:07 -0800 Subject: MC1540 IC References: <4B008F68.3090604@hachti.de> Message-ID: <4B00A5F8.5D120060@cs.ubc.ca> Philipp, while looking through some of your other /8 pages (great LAB/8 system!), you ask about the MC1540. I found a page of info about it in the 1969 Motorola Semiconductor Data Book. It is a core sense amplifier: single unit, variable threshold, strobe, -55Cto +125C, etc. The 1440 is the same but 0C to +75C. From quapla at xs4all.nl Mon Nov 16 02:57:02 2009 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (Ed Groenenberg) Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 09:57:02 +0100 Subject: Pics of the industrial PDP stuff + unknown ones In-Reply-To: <35fb7bb11c08fc89ffb4b156fd0ae6c0.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> References: <35fb7bb11c08fc89ffb4b156fd0ae6c0.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <1f9935dca598c3ceb8151751c415f3b0.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> I have placed some pictures of the Industrial PDP stuff on my web page, see the url below. I also found a few boards probably related to the industrial stuff, which are the M8094, the M8096 and the M8098. All are ICR-11 boards. I also have placed a picture of an ACT board I cannot identify. Anybody able to tell me what it is? The url is http://tinyurl.com/yzqknd7 Ed -- Certified : VCP 3.x, SCSI 3.x SCSA S10, SCNA S10 From quapla at xs4all.nl Mon Nov 16 03:08:09 2009 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (Ed Groenenberg) Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 10:08:09 +0100 Subject: Pics of the industrial PDP stuff + unknown ones In-Reply-To: <1f9935dca598c3ceb8151751c415f3b0.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> References: <35fb7bb11c08fc89ffb4b156fd0ae6c0.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> <1f9935dca598c3ceb8151751c415f3b0.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <6cdf7cc2a4fd946b2e6daed03f8838cd.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Forgot to add the number of boards/BP's available of the Industial stuff : BG-606 8 boards BG-701 3 boards BG-702 3 boards BG-741 40 boards BG-851 10 boards BG-935 8 sets (this is a jumber cable with 2 boards for connecting between backplanes) BG-941 4 boards UDC Bus stripmodule (backplane) 4 units LSI UDC backplane 2 units LSI-RTC1 1 board Ed -- Certified : VCP 3.x, SCSI 3.x SCSA S10, SCNA S10 From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Nov 16 09:13:39 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 10:13:39 -0500 Subject: Pics of the industrial PDP stuff + unknown ones In-Reply-To: <1f9935dca598c3ceb8151751c415f3b0.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> References: <35fb7bb11c08fc89ffb4b156fd0ae6c0.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> <1f9935dca598c3ceb8151751c415f3b0.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: On 11/16/09, Ed Groenenberg wrote: > I also have placed a picture of an ACT board I cannot identify. > Anybody able to tell me what it is? > > The url is http://tinyurl.com/yzqknd7 Just based on the shape and the presence of numerous DS8641s top and bottom, I'd say that looks like a Qniverter or Univerter-type bus adapter board. I'd check the locations of power/ground and groupings of signals to the DS8641s by the upper edge socket, but you probably plug this board into a Qbus box and run a BC11 cable to a DD11CK or DD11DK to use Unibus peripherals in your Qbus machine. It's possible it's some other specific configuration (since DEC _did_ make a hex-height Qbus backplane for mounting an IBV11 in a BA11 cab to use it with a Unibus processor), but those sorts of bus adapters tend to use a different cabling arrangement than a BC11. I am unfamiliar with the ACT name, but that's my opinion based on the board shape and chips present. -ethan From dundas at caltech.edu Mon Nov 16 10:02:43 2009 From: dundas at caltech.edu (John A. Dundas III) Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 08:02:43 -0800 Subject: Pics of the industrial PDP stuff + unknown ones In-Reply-To: References: <35fb7bb11c08fc89ffb4b156fd0ae6c0.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> <1f9935dca598c3ceb8151751c415f3b0.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: At 10:13 AM -0500 11/16/09, Ethan Dicks wrote: >I am unfamiliar with the ACT name, but that's my opinion based on the >board shape and chips present. ACT = Able Computer Technology, Able's formal name. John From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Mon Nov 16 10:04:35 2009 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 17:04:35 +0100 Subject: Motorola EXORset In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: From: "Andrew Lynch" Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 10:40 PM To: Subject: Motorola EXORset > Hi! Does anyone have the schematics for the Motorola EXORset? If so, > would > you please either make a scan or look something up for me? > > I would like to know how the MC6840 PTM interfaces with the MC6809 CPU. > > Thanks and have a nice day! > > Andrew Lynch It is fairly straight forward, as with all 68xx chips. The databus goes to ... the databus. The E clock input connects to the E (sometimes called phi2) of the 6809. The RSx pins go to address lines, depending on your decoding scheme. The normal method is RS0 to A0, RS1 to A1 and RS2 to A2. R/W* goes directly to the R/W* pin of the CPU. CS0* and CS1 go to address decode logic. The chip is selected when CS0* = "0" and CS1 = "1". If you want to use interrupts you must tie the IRQ output of the PTM to the IRQ input of the CPU. As several peripheral devices can be connected to the IRQ pin of the CPU, they are all open collector. So somewhere the IRQ line must have a pull-up resistor. - Henk. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Nov 16 10:24:03 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 11:24:03 -0500 Subject: Pics of the industrial PDP stuff + unknown ones In-Reply-To: References: <35fb7bb11c08fc89ffb4b156fd0ae6c0.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> <1f9935dca598c3ceb8151751c415f3b0.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: On 11/16/09, John A. Dundas III wrote: > At 10:13 AM -0500 11/16/09, Ethan Dicks wrote: >>I am unfamiliar with the ACT name, but that's my opinion based on the >>board shape and chips present. > > ACT = Able Computer Technology, Able's formal name. Ah... well then... It's a very good chance it's this... http://www.able.com/qniverter.html -ethan From glen.slick at gmail.com Mon Nov 16 12:15:40 2009 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 10:15:40 -0800 Subject: Pics of the industrial PDP stuff + unknown ones In-Reply-To: References: <35fb7bb11c08fc89ffb4b156fd0ae6c0.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> <1f9935dca598c3ceb8151751c415f3b0.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <1e1fc3e90911161015s3b262a27mb1a48d7c748c5125@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, Nov 16, 2009 at 8:24 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > Ah... well then... It's a very good chance it's this... > http://www.able.com/qniverter.html > The number screened on this board is 10067: http://www.groenenberg.net/download/junk/ACT-unknown.JPG Which does appear to match the QNIVERTER Model 10067 described here: http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/able/Able_QniverterManual.pdf From lynchaj at yahoo.com Mon Nov 16 13:05:49 2009 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 14:05:49 -0500 Subject: Motorola EXORset Message-ID: http://classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/2009-November/278609.html Motorola EXORset Henk Gooijen henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Mon Nov 16 10:04:35 CST 2009 * Previous message: Motorola EXORset * Next message: IC DEC8881 * Messages sorted by: [ date ] [ thread ] [ subject ] [ author ] _____ From: "Andrew Lynch" > Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 10:40 PM To: > Subject: Motorola EXORset > Hi! Does anyone have the schematics for the Motorola EXORset? If so, > would > you please either make a scan or look something up for me? > > I would like to know how the MC6840 PTM interfaces with the MC6809 CPU. > > Thanks and have a nice day! > > Andrew Lynch It is fairly straight forward, as with all 68xx chips. The databus goes to ... the databus. The E clock input connects to the E (sometimes called phi2) of the 6809. The RSx pins go to address lines, depending on your decoding scheme. The normal method is RS0 to A0, RS1 to A1 and RS2 to A2. R/W* goes directly to the R/W* pin of the CPU. CS0* and CS1 go to address decode logic. The chip is selected when CS0* = "0" and CS1 = "1". If you want to use interrupts you must tie the IRQ output of the PTM to the IRQ input of the CPU. As several peripheral devices can be connected to the IRQ pin of the CPU, they are all open collector. So somewhere the IRQ line must have a pull-up resistor. - Henk. ----- REPLY FOLLOWS ----- Hi Henk! Thanks for the help! What I am trying to do is build an IO mezzanine board for the N8VEM 6809 host processor board. I currently have a 6809 host processor board with a 6809 CPU, RAM, ROM, and a 6821 PIA to 8255 PPI "bus bridge" to the ECB. The device appears on the ECB as a peripheral to the Z80 "bus controller". What I am building is an IO mezzanine board for the 6809 host processor which will plug in on top of the 6809 host processor and provide some IO devices. Currently, it supports the 6551 ACIA (working), 6840 PTM (working), and a pair of 6522 VIAs (not installed yet). The ACIA is working since I can communicate with the 6809 host processor and IO mezzanine board using my crude monitor (minibug). I've written a small program to make the output of timer #3 make a square wave so I am pretty sure the PTM is working as well. My major goal of the IO mezzanine board project is to be able to run the Motorola ASSIST09 debug monitor to include the hardware single step mode. The PTM is interfaced to the CPU in the usual way however, the output of timer #1 is also connected to the /NMI line of the CPU. I am since the CPU /NMI is active low and the output of PTM timer #1 is active high (I think), I am running the signal through an inverter. That's why I am asking about the Motorola EXORset because I believe the ASSIST09 was released to support that hardware and I would like to check my design with it. If you or anyone else has any information on the hardware ASSIST09 was originally written to run on please let me know. Thanks in advance and have a nice day! Andrew Lynch PS, I just got the ACIA code (sort of) working in the ASSIST09 monitor. There is still some sort of bug as the input handling is rather screwy but I can get some things to work. From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Mon Nov 16 14:24:56 2009 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 21:24:56 +0100 Subject: Speechless! (ebay madness alert) Message-ID: Folks, Some 'artists' are mental. Discuss. Item 150382954132 -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Nov 16 15:33:03 2009 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 13:33:03 -0800 (PST) Subject: Speechless! (ebay madness alert) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 16 Nov 2009, Adrian Graham wrote: > Folks, > > Some 'artists' are mental. Discuss. > > Item 150382954132 No, the person who pays the asking price is mental. If the 'artist' succeeds at selling it for that, the 'artist' is a genius. If he fails to sell it, he's just a destructive pyromaniac having some 'fun'. Zane From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Mon Nov 16 15:37:16 2009 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 22:37:16 +0100 Subject: Speechless! (ebay madness alert) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <485AF3F1BBC149299FD882B9CF516C74@xp1800> > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Namens Adrian Graham > Verzonden: maandag 16 november 2009 21:25 > Aan: Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Onderwerp: Speechless! (ebay madness alert) > > Folks, > > Some 'artists' are mental. Discuss. > > Item 150382954132 > > -- > Adrian/Witchy > Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator > Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home > computer collection? > I think the apple guys will call a fatwah on this 'artist' .. I strongly suggest he stays out of Cupertino ;-) -Rik From mdavidson1963 at gmail.com Mon Nov 16 15:37:34 2009 From: mdavidson1963 at gmail.com (Mark Davidson) Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 13:37:34 -0800 Subject: Speechless! (ebay madness alert) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Nov 16, 2009 at 1:33 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: > > > On Mon, 16 Nov 2009, Adrian Graham wrote: > >> Folks, >> >> Some 'artists' are mental. Discuss. >> >> Item 150382954132 > > No, the person who pays the asking price is mental. ?If the 'artist' > succeeds at selling it for that, the 'artist' is a genius. ?If he fails to > sell it, he's just a destructive pyromaniac having some 'fun'. > > Zane I like the picture with the caption "Makes a great conversation piece". Indeed. "You paid HOW MUCH for that???" Mark From bryan.pope at comcast.net Mon Nov 16 15:41:49 2009 From: bryan.pope at comcast.net (Bryan Pope) Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 16:41:49 -0500 Subject: Speechless! (ebay madness alert) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B01C71D.2060707@comcast.net> Adrian Graham wrote: > Folks, > > Some 'artists' are mental. Discuss. > > Item 150382954132 > He had to top the person who sold a piece of burnt toast on ebay... Cheers, Bryan From ploopster at gmail.com Mon Nov 16 15:43:22 2009 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 16:43:22 -0500 Subject: Speechless! (ebay madness alert) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B01C77A.40400@gmail.com> Zane H. Healy wrote: >> Folks, >> >> Some 'artists' are mental. Discuss. >> >> Item 150382954132 > > No, the person who pays the asking price is mental. If the 'artist' > succeeds at selling it for that, the 'artist' is a genius. If he fails to > sell it, he's just a destructive pyromaniac having some 'fun'. The only question I have is, was this machine working when it was nuked? Peace... Sridhar From g at kurico.com Mon Nov 16 15:49:48 2009 From: g at kurico.com (George Currie) Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 15:49:48 -0600 Subject: Speechless! (ebay madness alert) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B01C8FC.5010500@kurico.com> Adrian Graham wrote: > Folks, > > Some 'artists' are mental. Discuss. > > Item 150382954132 > > Curious that they claim that "it's the very first Macintosh 512k off the assembly line", but offer no proof of this (e.g. serial number). Also, if you scroll all the way to the bottom and read the last paragraph of the description, it does get a bit amusing. The video is incredibly lame btw. As others have said, more power to'em if he can get that much (or anywhere near that much) for it. If he does, I'm either going to start baking a few of my own, or maybe sell them as "kits" (e.g. you supply the microwave) for 1/10th the price. From geneb at deltasoft.com Mon Nov 16 15:51:28 2009 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 13:51:28 -0800 (PST) Subject: Speechless! (ebay madness alert) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 16 Nov 2009, Adrian Graham wrote: > Folks, > > Some 'artists' are mental. Discuss. > > Item 150382954132 > I don't know about being an "artist", but if that really was the first 512k machine off the line (and it's something that can be proven), he needs to die in a very messy, very public manner. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From joachim.thiemann at gmail.com Mon Nov 16 15:53:01 2009 From: joachim.thiemann at gmail.com (Joachim Thiemann) Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 16:53:01 -0500 Subject: Speechless! (ebay madness alert) In-Reply-To: <4B01C71D.2060707@comcast.net> References: <4B01C71D.2060707@comcast.net> Message-ID: <4affc5e0911161353p2cd7dd95gc2d08c7feaf629b9@mail.gmail.com> Meh, I don't see what the big deal is. I can't judge its merit as a sculpture; I've seen uglier being priced higher. The value of art is whatever someone is willing to pay for it. One can't judge the cost of the source materials - all sculptures are in the end just a piece of metal/wood/plastic/stone/whatever. Is is a good use of an old Mac? Sure why not; they are not exactly rarities. Is this any worse that collecting dust in a basement somewhere, or being turned into a Macquarium? This was obviously not a random bashing together of stuff, since it required a microwave oven large enough to hold the Mac. I would like to have seen the act of microwaving! -- Joachim Thiemann :: http://www.tsp.ece.mcgill.ca/~jthiem From starbase89 at gmail.com Mon Nov 16 15:55:18 2009 From: starbase89 at gmail.com (Joe Giliberti) Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 16:55:18 -0500 Subject: Speechless! (ebay madness alert) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2b1f1f550911161355q363eebd8s6e99aae1c8968f38@mail.gmail.com> microwaved? On Mon, Nov 16, 2009 at 4:51 PM, Gene Buckle wrote: > > >> I don't know about being an "artist", but if that really was the first > 512k machine off the line (and it's something that can be proven), he needs > to die in a very messy, very public manner. > > g. > > From joachim.thiemann at gmail.com Mon Nov 16 15:57:16 2009 From: joachim.thiemann at gmail.com (Joachim Thiemann) Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 16:57:16 -0500 Subject: Speechless! (ebay madness alert) In-Reply-To: <4affc5e0911161353p2cd7dd95gc2d08c7feaf629b9@mail.gmail.com> References: <4B01C71D.2060707@comcast.net> <4affc5e0911161353p2cd7dd95gc2d08c7feaf629b9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4affc5e0911161357w7396df32k1b9ef154f74c5d7b@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, Nov 16, 2009 at 16:53, Joachim Thiemann wrote: > This was obviously not a random bashing together of stuff, since it > required a microwave oven large enough to hold the Mac. ?I would like > to have seen the act of microwaving! Oops, never mind - there is a video on the page. Not as cool (or as intelligent) as I had imagined. In fact, probably released toxic fumes into the environment, and if it really was "the first off the line" (debatable - and less significant since the 128k's are more significant) a bit of a shame. Joe. -- Joachim Thiemann :: http://www.tsp.ece.mcgill.ca/~jthiem From cclist at sydex.com Mon Nov 16 16:01:08 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 14:01:08 -0800 Subject: Speechless! (ebay madness alert) In-Reply-To: <4B01C8FC.5010500@kurico.com> References: , <4B01C8FC.5010500@kurico.com> Message-ID: <4B015B24.1774.13ACA8C@cclist.sydex.com> Shrug. People like to do things to Apple gear: http://www.willitblend.com/videos.aspx?type=unsafe&video=iphone3g Cheers, Chuck From n0body.h0me at inbox.com Mon Nov 16 16:11:07 2009 From: n0body.h0me at inbox.com (N0body H0me) Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 14:11:07 -0800 Subject: Speechless! (ebay madness alert) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4DDC65AD77A.00000717n0body.h0me@inbox.com> It never fails to amaze me how much of this kind of pointless nonsense passes as 'art'. My kneejerk reaction to this kind of 'art' is related to something Homer Simpson once said on "The Simpsons": "Everybody knows that anything that's hard couldn't possibly be worth doing." Creating artwork that will truly endure is one of those 'hard' things, ergo, Homer's mentality suggests: "Lets do something criminally easy & stupid to this thing, and everyone will think that it's art." Bottom Line: One less (working) Mac in the world. It's death was both stupid and pointless. I suspect even Homer would have thought so. > -----Original Message----- > From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk > Sent: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 21:24:56 +0100 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Speechless! (ebay madness alert) > > Folks, > > Some 'artists' are mental. Discuss. > > Item 150382954132 > > -- > Adrian/Witchy > Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator > Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer > collection? From dzubint at vcn.bc.ca Mon Nov 16 16:12:35 2009 From: dzubint at vcn.bc.ca (dzubint at vcn.bc.ca) Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 14:12:35 -0800 (PST) Subject: Intel 4004 complete schematics and simulator available Message-ID: (I just saw this as a story on Slashdot) The 4004 Schematics, Artwork, and Simulator at: http://www.4004.com/mcs4-masks-schematics-sim.html ----------- Thomas Dzubin From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Mon Nov 16 16:14:19 2009 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 14:14:19 -0800 (PST) Subject: Speechless! (ebay madness alert) In-Reply-To: <4DDC65AD77A.00000717n0body.h0me@inbox.com> References: <4DDC65AD77A.00000717n0body.h0me@inbox.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 16 Nov 2009, N0body H0me wrote: > It never fails to amaze me how much of this kind > of pointless nonsense passes as 'art'. I think this sort of thing can be neatly described as trolling on ebay. "Let's see what sort of moron buys this!" -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Nov 16 16:35:21 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 14:35:21 -0800 (PST) Subject: Speechless! (ebay madness alert) In-Reply-To: <4B01C8FC.5010500@kurico.com> References: <4B01C8FC.5010500@kurico.com> Message-ID: <20091116143430.V15122@shell.lmi.net> > Curious that they claim that "it's the very first Macintosh 512k off the > assembly line", but offer no proof of this (e.g. serial number). Also, Does it have the signatures of the developers molded on the inside of the case? From rescue at hawkmountain.net Mon Nov 16 16:43:13 2009 From: rescue at hawkmountain.net (Curtis H. Wilbar Jr.) Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 17:43:13 -0500 Subject: Speechless! (ebay madness alert) In-Reply-To: <20091116143430.V15122@shell.lmi.net> References: <4B01C8FC.5010500@kurico.com> <20091116143430.V15122@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4B01D581.5070800@hawkmountain.net> Fred Cisin wrote: >> Curious that they claim that "it's the very first Macintosh 512k off the >> assembly line", but offer no proof of this (e.g. serial number). Also, >> > > Does it have the signatures of the developers molded on the inside of the > case? > > > > > Well. WhoTF would be able to tell now ! I can think of something^H^H^H^H^Hone that should be microwaved and sold on eBay.... oh wait... they don't allow selling of (cooked?) body parts.... Maybe Mac 512Ks aren't that rare... but I don't have one.... (oldest I have (in Macs) is a Plus). There are enough? Model-T's out there... maybe he should Microwave one of them ? Artist my @ss Signing off before my language gets any worse :-) #@$#TJ#@)FJ@#)F From geneb at deltasoft.com Mon Nov 16 16:53:41 2009 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 14:53:41 -0800 (PST) Subject: Speechless! (ebay madness alert) In-Reply-To: <2b1f1f550911161355q363eebd8s6e99aae1c8968f38@mail.gmail.com> References: <2b1f1f550911161355q363eebd8s6e99aae1c8968f38@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 16 Nov 2009, Joe Giliberti wrote: > microwaved? > > On Mon, Nov 16, 2009 at 4:51 PM, Gene Buckle wrote: > >> >> >>> I don't know about being an "artist", but if that really was the first >> 512k machine off the line (and it's something that can be proven), he needs >> to die in a very messy, very public manner. >> >> g. Brilliant! There should be plenty of power available in Times Square too... g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Mon Nov 16 16:03:08 2009 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 23:03:08 +0100 Subject: Speechless! (ebay madness alert) In-Reply-To: <4B01D581.5070800@hawkmountain.net> Message-ID: On 16/11/2009 23:43, "Curtis H. Wilbar Jr." wrote: > Maybe Mac 512Ks aren't that rare... but I don't have one.... (oldest I have > (in Macs) is a Plus). There are enough? Model-T's out there... maybe he > should Microwave one of them ? > I guess I'm lucky that I was given a pristine Fat Mac with some extra bits a few years ago and it's the only one I've seen in all my years collecting. Someone microwaving one just got my goat. Will he get $24k for it? I hope not. -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From quapla at xs4all.nl Tue Nov 17 01:04:48 2009 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (Ed Groenenberg) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 08:04:48 +0100 Subject: Pics of the industrial PDP stuff + unknown ones In-Reply-To: <1e1fc3e90911161015s3b262a27mb1a48d7c748c5125@mail.gmail.com> References: <35fb7bb11c08fc89ffb4b156fd0ae6c0.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> <1f9935dca598c3ceb8151751c415f3b0.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> <1e1fc3e90911161015s3b262a27mb1a48d7c748c5125@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Yes indeed, it seems to be the Able Qinverter. Nice to know that it can work both ways. Hmm, accessing a PC11 from a 11/53..... Regards, Ed > On Mon, Nov 16, 2009 at 8:24 AM, Ethan Dicks > wrote: >> >> Ah... well then... It's a very good chance it's this... >> http://www.able.com/qniverter.html >> > > The number screened on this board is 10067: > > http://www.groenenberg.net/download/junk/ACT-unknown.JPG > > Which does appear to match the QNIVERTER Model 10067 described here: > > http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/able/Able_QniverterManual.pdf > -- Certified : VCP 3.x, SCSI 3.x SCSA S10, SCNA S10 From jws at jwsss.com Mon Nov 16 04:09:23 2009 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 02:09:23 -0800 Subject: Pics of the industrial PDP stuff + unknown ones In-Reply-To: <1f9935dca598c3ceb8151751c415f3b0.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> References: <35fb7bb11c08fc89ffb4b156fd0ae6c0.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> <1f9935dca598c3ceb8151751c415f3b0.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <4B0124D3.9040703@jwsss.com> Act made controller and peripheral test equipment if it is the same ACT that was in Santa Ana, Ca. I only knew much about them after they crashed and burned and Advanced Computer Products bought a large amount of their estate at auction for liquidation. I figured that boards like this were shim boards they made so they could verify 2 high controllers under power in circuit, but it may have been for other purposes they had to stack boards. I only saw what you have, not the boards plugged into systems, as what ACP had was all disassembled boards like you have in the photos. Jim > > I also have placed a picture of an ACT board I cannot identify. > Anybody able to tell me what it is? > > The url is http://tinyurl.com/yzqknd7 > > Ed > > From tanderberg_99 at yahoo.com Mon Nov 16 11:03:40 2009 From: tanderberg_99 at yahoo.com (ck) Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 09:03:40 -0800 (PST) Subject: RGB-to-VGA adapter & docs was: Re: HP "Field Guide" ? Message-ID: <240534.48791.qm@web31102.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Hello Eric: I have been looking for RGB (BNC) to VGA converter. I also found Magenta Research is selling one at $695. I have an old IBM RS6000 computer which used a fixed frequency monitor with BNC RGB input. I would like to connect a modern PC monitor. Would you think your circuit works for my case? If so, could you send me the circuit? Thank you Chungduck Ko From tanderberg_99 at yahoo.com Mon Nov 16 11:08:07 2009 From: tanderberg_99 at yahoo.com (ck) Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 09:08:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: #2 Fw: RGB-to-VGA adapter & docs was: Re: HP "Field Guide" ? Message-ID: <783940.96634.qm@web31106.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I did not tell you video card info. H freq = 63.35khZ and V = 60Hz fixed frequency. Thank you Chungduck Ko --- On Mon, 11/16/09, ck wrote: > From: ck > Subject: RGB-to-VGA adapter & docs was: Re: HP "Field Guide" ? > To: > Date: Monday, November 16, 2009, 12:03 PM > Hello Eric: > > I have been looking for RGB (BNC) to VGA converter.? I > also found Magenta Research is selling one at $695. I have > an old IBM RS6000 computer which used a fixed frequency > monitor with BNC RGB input. I would like to connect a modern > PC monitor. > > Would you think your circuit works for my case? If so, > could you send me the circuit? > Thank you > Chungduck Ko > > > > ? ? ? > From wmaddox at pacbell.net Tue Nov 17 03:22:06 2009 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 01:22:06 -0800 (PST) Subject: Interesting items on eBay Message-ID: <531385.83627.qm@web82608.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Item # 190348608036 The seller claims this is a vintage computer from 1968. It's all been de-racked and is shown spread out on a table, local pickup only in Hudson, MA. There is a console that appears to have been part of medical instrumentation of some kind. I don't recognize the manufacturer's label that is shown, but there is a set of drawings, and the card cage appears to contain a core stack or two. Someone local might want to check it out. Item # 120492284400 These look like raw ceramic substrates similar to those used for IBM's SLT logic, but they appear to be set up with pads for larger die. Perhaps MST logic? Anway, the seller claims they are IBM material from the 1970's. There's a whole tray of them, as would be used in manufacturing. Could be interesting for the IBM mainframe collectors. From mike at brickfieldspark.org Tue Nov 17 03:42:37 2009 From: mike at brickfieldspark.org (Mike Hatch) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 09:42:37 -0000 Subject: [personal] Re: Speechless! (ebay madness alert) References: Message-ID: <005d01ca676a$4cc76250$961ca8c0@mss.local> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Zane H. Healy" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Monday, November 16, 2009 9:33 PM Subject: [personal] Re: Speechless! (ebay madness alert) > > On Mon, 16 Nov 2009, Adrian Graham wrote: > >> Folks, >> >> Some 'artists' are mental. Discuss. >> >> Item 150382954132 > > No, the person who pays the asking price is mental. If the 'artist' > succeeds at selling it for that, the 'artist' is a genius. If he fails to > sell it, he's just a destructive pyromaniac having some 'fun'. I'm afraid this just confirms my views on some "artists", especially with his over inflated view of his worth. Those that can get a proper job, those that can't become artists, politicians.......etc, I should be a professional cynic. So what's the liquid draining down the screen and case when it's loaded into the microwave. Mike > Zane > > > > > > From halarewich at gmail.com Tue Nov 17 04:27:05 2009 From: halarewich at gmail.com (Chris Halarewich) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 02:27:05 -0800 Subject: RGB-to-VGA adapter & docs was: Re: HP "Field Guide" ? In-Reply-To: <240534.48791.qm@web31102.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <240534.48791.qm@web31102.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6d6501090911170227k353849dfn7c8897d12e8e0a51@mail.gmail.com> would any of this work for what u need http://www.monoprice.com/products/search.asp?spcDB=10203&spcWord=Video+Cable+%2D+RCA%2FBNC%2F13W3&keyword=rgb%20vga On 11/16/09, ck wrote: > > Hello Eric: > > I have been looking for RGB (BNC) to VGA converter. I also found Magenta > Research is selling one at $695. I have an old IBM RS6000 computer which > used a fixed frequency monitor with BNC RGB input. I would like to connect a > modern PC monitor. > > Would you think your circuit works for my case? If so, could you send me > the circuit? > Thank you > Chungduck Ko > > > > > From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Tue Nov 17 06:09:55 2009 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 10:09:55 -0200 Subject: [personal] Re: Speechless! (ebay madness alert) In-Reply-To: <005d01ca676a$4cc76250$961ca8c0@mss.local> References: <005d01ca676a$4cc76250$961ca8c0@mss.local> Message-ID: <4a15f9590911170409u2c23fe30k5fb2206f180e3b0c@mail.gmail.com> I'd make a very politically incorrect joke about this, but since we live in the age of the politically correct thinking (and it is boring as hell), better be quiet and don't have a fatwa issued against me :o) But think about towels, brains, heat, and so on :) From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Tue Nov 17 10:09:36 2009 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 17:09:36 +0100 Subject: Motorola EXORset In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > Hi Henk! Thanks for the help! What I am trying to do is build an IO > mezzanine board for the N8VEM 6809 host processor board. > > I currently have a 6809 host processor board with a 6809 CPU, RAM, ROM, > and > a 6821 PIA to 8255 PPI "bus bridge" to the ECB. The device appears on the > ECB as a peripheral to the Z80 "bus controller". > > What I am building is an IO mezzanine board for the 6809 host processor > which will plug in on top of the 6809 host processor and provide some IO > devices. I used a similar solution to add an FDC to my blinkenboard 6809-based module. I used the PIA 6821 socket. Remove the 6821, install "piggy-back" the board with the FDC and put the 6821 also on that piggy-back board. For peripherals all signals are the same: E, R/W*, data and address lines, IRQ* and RESET*. I might have forgotten one. > Currently, it supports the 6551 ACIA (working), 6840 PTM > (working), and a pair of 6522 VIAs (not installed yet). The ACIA is > working > since I can communicate with the 6809 host processor and IO mezzanine > board > using my crude monitor (minibug). I've written a small program to make > the > output of timer #3 make a square wave so I am pretty sure the PTM is > working > as well. > > My major goal of the IO mezzanine board project is to be able to run the > Motorola ASSIST09 debug monitor to include the hardware single step mode. > The PTM is interfaced to the CPU in the usual way however, the output of > timer #1 is also connected to the /NMI line of the CPU. I am since the > CPU > /NMI is active low and the output of PTM timer #1 is active high (I > think), > I am running the signal through an inverter. I have not checked the PTM datasheet, but if the output pulse from the PTM is a positive one, you need the inverter. Any small signal NPN transistor with a resistor of say 10k or a bit lower can be used as inverter. The collector is tied to NMI* and a pull-up resistor of 4k7 is all needed. If you have a spare (open collector) inverter of a 74LSxx device, that's fine too of course. Just remember that more than one device might want to activate NMI*, IRQ*, or FIRQ* ... > That's why I am asking about the Motorola EXORset because I believe the > ASSIST09 was released to support that hardware and I would like to check > my > design with it. If you or anyone else has any information on the hardware > ASSIST09 was originally written to run on please let me know. OK. Sorry, no info of the EXORset here. > Thanks in advance and have a nice day! > > Andrew Lynch > > PS, I just got the ACIA code (sort of) working in the ASSIST09 monitor. > There is still some sort of bug as the input handling is rather screwy but > I > can get some things to work. You use the 6551 ACIA. I assume that from a programming view it is more or less identical to the 6850? I have experience with the 6850 ACIA. I can have a look on the ACIA code you wrote. Do you use an interrupt for each received character? - Henk. From evan at snarc.net Tue Nov 17 10:53:17 2009 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 11:53:17 -0500 Subject: Non-fake Apple 1 on ebay Message-ID: <4B02D4FD.10603@snarc.net> 320447681957 ... Speaking of crazy prices ... From cclist at sydex.com Tue Nov 17 10:53:12 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 08:53:12 -0800 Subject: RGB-to-VGA adapter & docs was: Re: HP "Field Guide" ? In-Reply-To: <240534.48791.qm@web31102.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <240534.48791.qm@web31102.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4B026478.3224.109126@cclist.sydex.com> On 16 Nov 2009 at 9:03, ck wrote: > I have been looking for RGB (BNC) to VGA converter. I also found > Magenta Research is selling one at $695. I have an old IBM RS6000 > computer which used a fixed frequency monitor with BNC RGB input. I > would like to connect a modern PC monitor. Some older LCD monitors will work as-is with RGB+composite sync and RGB+sync on green inputs. The NEC sitting in front of me, for example, will do this--and syncs down to a horizontal frequency of 24KHz. Actually, the video cable attaches to 5 BNC connectors behind a panel. There are sync-combiner circuits--I used them with fixed-frequency monitors, both in the EGA as well as the VGA days. Basically nothing more than a 74HC86 quad exclusive-OR gate and a few resistors (and a battery for power supply that will last for years). There are circuits for this on the web. --Chuck From curt at atarimuseum.com Tue Nov 17 11:17:48 2009 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 12:17:48 -0500 Subject: Non-fake Apple 1 on ebay In-Reply-To: <4B02D4FD.10603@snarc.net> References: <4B02D4FD.10603@snarc.net> Message-ID: <4B02DABC.1070902@atarimuseum.com> Despite the crazy high price - I must say I am very impressed with the original box, even the original sales receipt, now THAT is a nice collectable, I wish the seller and possible buyer good luck. Question - I've never seen the bottom of an Apple 1 - are those jumper wires original "fix" wires to the board or did someone do some repair work on the board? Curt Evan Koblentz wrote: > 320447681957 > > ... Speaking of crazy prices ... > From evan at snarc.net Tue Nov 17 11:31:34 2009 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 12:31:34 -0500 Subject: Non-fake Apple 1 on ebay In-Reply-To: <4B02DABC.1070902@atarimuseum.com> References: <4B02D4FD.10603@snarc.net> <4B02DABC.1070902@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <4B02DDF6.3040903@snarc.net> I predict zero bids. If the seller feels this unit is worth more than the others, then he should price it at a slight premium vs. the others, for example $30k vs. $20-25k. However $50k is insane, especially in this economy. --------------------------------------------- > Despite the crazy high price - I must say I am very impressed with the > original box, even the original sales receipt, now THAT is a nice > collectable, I wish the seller and possible buyer good luck. > > Question - I've never seen the bottom of an Apple 1 - are those jumper > wires original "fix" wires to the board or did someone do some repair > work on the board? > > > > Curt > > > > Evan Koblentz wrote: >> 320447681957 >> >> ... Speaking of crazy prices ... >> > From feedle at feedle.net Tue Nov 17 11:35:11 2009 From: feedle at feedle.net (C. Sullivan) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 09:35:11 -0800 Subject: Non-fake Apple 1 on ebay In-Reply-To: <4B02DABC.1070902@atarimuseum.com> References: <4B02D4FD.10603@snarc.net> <4B02DABC.1070902@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <0B9A502B-DEF5-44E8-9315-C86AF13B9DA9@feedle.net> On Nov 17, 2009, at 9:17 AM, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > Question - I've never seen the bottom of an Apple 1 - are those jumper wires original "fix" wires to the board or did someone do some repair work on the board? It looks like a mod. Based upon what's wired up, my guess would be somebody had some custom external interface for something (looks like CPU I/O and interrupt lines and power) and used a DIP socket for convenience. Very common use for the breadboarding area. That seems to be the only thing that would reduce it's "collector" value. But, that could be a plus if the mod is well documented. From afra at aurigae.demon.co.uk Tue Nov 17 11:43:06 2009 From: afra at aurigae.demon.co.uk (afra at aurigae.demon.co.uk) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 17:43:06 +0000 Subject: Non-fake Apple 1 on ebay In-Reply-To: <4B02DABC.1070902@atarimuseum.com> References: <4B02D4FD.10603@snarc.net> <4B02DABC.1070902@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <20091117174306.76231im5d0zst3us@aurigae.demon.co.uk> Quoting "Curt @ Atari Museum" : > Despite the crazy high price - I must say I am very impressed with > the original box, even the original sales receipt, now THAT is a > nice collectable, I wish the seller and possible buyer good luck. > > Question - I've never seen the bottom of an Apple 1 - are those > jumper wires original "fix" wires to the board or did someone do > some repair work on the board? If you read the Q&A to the seller near the bottom of the auction he answers this one, the way I read it, it's an after market thing..... Cheers. Phill. ---------------------------------------------------------------- This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. From curt at atarimuseum.com Tue Nov 17 11:50:56 2009 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 12:50:56 -0500 Subject: Non-fake Apple 1 on ebay In-Reply-To: <4B02DDF6.3040903@snarc.net> References: <4B02D4FD.10603@snarc.net> <4B02DABC.1070902@atarimuseum.com> <4B02DDF6.3040903@snarc.net> Message-ID: <4B02E280.4050307@atarimuseum.com> I agree Evan, the extra's do add to its value, but not by significant amounts reflected in the opening bid price. What he should've done was started at $1,000 and let bids go nuts with tons of bids and it would've gotten a lot of traffic and attention. Curt Evan Koblentz wrote: > I predict zero bids. > > If the seller feels this unit is worth more than the others, then he > should price it at a slight premium vs. the others, for example $30k > vs. $20-25k. However $50k is insane, especially in this economy. > > > --------------------------------------------- >> Despite the crazy high price - I must say I am very impressed with >> the original box, even the original sales receipt, now THAT is a nice >> collectable, I wish the seller and possible buyer good luck. >> >> Question - I've never seen the bottom of an Apple 1 - are those >> jumper wires original "fix" wires to the board or did someone do some >> repair work on the board? >> >> >> >> Curt >> >> >> >> Evan Koblentz wrote: >>> 320447681957 >>> >>> ... Speaking of crazy prices ... >>> >> > From cclist at sydex.com Tue Nov 17 11:51:44 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 09:51:44 -0800 Subject: Non-fake Apple 1 on ebay In-Reply-To: <4B02D4FD.10603@snarc.net> References: <4B02D4FD.10603@snarc.net> Message-ID: <4B027230.14393.4628F0@cclist.sydex.com> On 17 Nov 2009 at 11:53, Evan Koblentz wrote: > ... Speaking of crazy prices ... I've noticed a similar trend on Craigslist. An Atari 800XL offered for $250 "first come, first served". 70's era solid-state stereo receivers for $300. Pentium 3 desktops for $150; Dell CRT VGA monitors for $50. This is the sort of stuff that used to appear on Freecycle or be left at the curbside. It smells a bit of desperation. --Chuck From curt at atarimuseum.com Tue Nov 17 12:39:00 2009 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 13:39:00 -0500 Subject: Non-fake Apple 1 on ebay In-Reply-To: <4B027230.14393.4628F0@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4B02D4FD.10603@snarc.net> <4B027230.14393.4628F0@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4B02EDC4.9050507@atarimuseum.com> Well, this is certainly better then the asshole who blow-torched a Mac and calls it "art" and wants $50K for it. Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 17 Nov 2009 at 11:53, Evan Koblentz wrote: > > >> ... Speaking of crazy prices ... >> > > I've noticed a similar trend on Craigslist. An Atari 800XL offered > for $250 "first come, first served". 70's era solid-state stereo > receivers for $300. Pentium 3 desktops for $150; Dell CRT VGA > monitors for $50. > > This is the sort of stuff that used to appear on Freecycle or be left > at the curbside. It smells a bit of desperation. > > --Chuck > > > > > From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Nov 17 12:43:21 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 13:43:21 -0500 Subject: Non-fake Apple 1 on ebay In-Reply-To: <4B02E280.4050307@atarimuseum.com> References: <4B02D4FD.10603@snarc.net> <4B02DABC.1070902@atarimuseum.com> <4B02DDF6.3040903@snarc.net> <4B02E280.4050307@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: > I agree Evan, the extra's do add to its value, but not by significant > amounts reflected in the opening bid price. ? ?What he should've done was > started at $1,000 and let bids go nuts with tons of bids and it would've > gotten a lot of traffic and attention. Or put it up for $50K, get no bids, but get plenty of eyes looking at it, with perhaps a later private sale for an undisclosed amount off Ebay later. Not an insane tactic - it works with high end collectibles and antiques. -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Nov 17 12:54:38 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 13:54:38 -0500 Subject: Non-fake Apple 1 on ebay In-Reply-To: <4B02EDC4.9050507@atarimuseum.com> References: <4B02D4FD.10603@snarc.net> <4B027230.14393.4628F0@cclist.sydex.com> <4B02EDC4.9050507@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: > Well, this is certainly better then the asshole who blow-torched a Mac and > calls it "art" and wants $50K for it. Wiki "Dada". -- Will From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Tue Nov 17 13:00:59 2009 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 11:00:59 -0800 (PST) Subject: Non-fake Apple 1 on ebay In-Reply-To: References: <4B02D4FD.10603@snarc.net> <4B027230.14393.4628F0@cclist.sydex.com> <4B02EDC4.9050507@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 17 Nov 2009, William Donzelli wrote: >> Well, this is certainly better then the asshole who blow-torched a Mac and >> calls it "art" and wants $50K for it. > > Wiki "Dada". Chris Sullivan and I were looking at something a while ago which I described as "Dada". His reply was "That's not Dada. That's doo-doo.". -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From tosteve at yahoo.com Tue Nov 17 13:19:14 2009 From: tosteve at yahoo.com (steven stengel) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 11:19:14 -0800 (PST) Subject: Non-fake Apple 1 on ebay In-Reply-To: <4B02D4FD.10603@snarc.net> Message-ID: <154461.29364.qm@web110614.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> ...and shipping is only $3,092.27 UPS Next Day Air! --- On Tue, 11/17/09, Evan Koblentz wrote: > From: Evan Koblentz > Subject: Non-fake Apple 1 on ebay > To: "On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Date: Tuesday, November 17, 2009, 8:53 AM > 320447681957 > > ... Speaking of crazy prices ... > From curt at atarimuseum.com Tue Nov 17 13:57:30 2009 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 14:57:30 -0500 Subject: Non-fake Apple 1 on ebay In-Reply-To: <154461.29364.qm@web110614.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <154461.29364.qm@web110614.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4B03002A.9080002@atarimuseum.com> What a bargain !!! Put me down for 2 of them! ;-) steven stengel wrote: > ...and shipping is only $3,092.27 UPS Next Day Air! > > > > --- On Tue, 11/17/09, Evan Koblentz wrote: > > >> From: Evan Koblentz >> Subject: Non-fake Apple 1 on ebay >> To: "On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" >> Date: Tuesday, November 17, 2009, 8:53 AM >> 320447681957 >> >> ... Speaking of crazy prices ... >> >> > > > > > From curt at atarimuseum.com Tue Nov 17 13:57:54 2009 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 14:57:54 -0500 Subject: Non-fake Apple 1 on ebay In-Reply-To: References: <4B02D4FD.10603@snarc.net> <4B027230.14393.4628F0@cclist.sydex.com> <4B02EDC4.9050507@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <4B030042.2030707@atarimuseum.com> Doo-Doo sums it up much more accurately. David Griffith wrote: > On Tue, 17 Nov 2009, William Donzelli wrote: > >>> Well, this is certainly better then the asshole who blow-torched a >>> Mac and >>> calls it "art" and wants $50K for it. >> >> Wiki "Dada". > > Chris Sullivan and I were looking at something a while ago which I > described as "Dada". His reply was "That's not Dada. That's doo-doo.". > From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Nov 17 14:21:13 2009 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 20:21:13 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Speechless! (ebay madness alert) In-Reply-To: <4B015B24.1774.13ACA8C@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <116716.44524.qm@web23401.mail.ird.yahoo.com> That was awesome, especially in slow motion. Just as long as he only blends modern gear, I don't care :) Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk --- On Mon, 16/11/09, Chuck Guzis wrote: From: Chuck Guzis Subject: Re: Speechless! (ebay madness alert) To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Date: Monday, 16 November, 2009, 22:01 Shrug.? People like to do things to Apple gear: http://www.willitblend.com/videos.aspx?type=unsafe&video=iphone3g Cheers, Chuck From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Tue Nov 17 14:43:26 2009 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 14:43:26 -0600 Subject: Non-fake Apple 1 on ebay In-Reply-To: <4B02DDF6.3040903@snarc.net> References: <4B02D4FD.10603@snarc.net> <4B02DABC.1070902@atarimuseum.com> <4B02DDF6.3040903@snarc.net> Message-ID: <4B030AEE.5020806@gmail.com> Evan Koblentz wrote: > If the seller feels this unit is worth more than the others, then he > should price it at a slight premium vs. the others, for example $30k vs. > $20-25k. However $50k is insane, especially in this economy. Maybe someone can explain this to me - what the heck is the big deal about Apple 1s? Obviously I'm in the crowd that just doesn't get it - but there's a big crowd out there that *does* get it - whatever "it" is. cheers Jules From curt at atarimuseum.com Tue Nov 17 15:01:11 2009 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 16:01:11 -0500 Subject: Non-fake Apple 1 on ebay In-Reply-To: <4B030AEE.5020806@gmail.com> References: <4B02D4FD.10603@snarc.net> <4B02DABC.1070902@atarimuseum.com> <4B02DDF6.3040903@snarc.net> <4B030AEE.5020806@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B030F17.9080703@atarimuseum.com> There are only around 250 of them, they were hand built in Woz's garage, mostly by Steve Woz and Jobs and only a few have surfaced over the years making them rare and they have continued to go up in value over the years as more and more publicly known auctions and sales have made headlines on major site and the SJ Mercury Newspaper, so they fetch big bucks. For those just wanting to experience an Apple 1's functional Vince Briel makes "Replica-1" boards which are functionally the same and Vince even got Steve Woz's nod of approval and the use of the bootcode on it. Curt Jules Richardson wrote: > Evan Koblentz wrote: >> If the seller feels this unit is worth more than the others, then he >> should price it at a slight premium vs. the others, for example $30k >> vs. $20-25k. However $50k is insane, especially in this economy. > > Maybe someone can explain this to me - what the heck is the big deal > about Apple 1s? Obviously I'm in the crowd that just doesn't get it - > but there's a big crowd out there that *does* get it - whatever "it" is. > > cheers > > Jules > > From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Tue Nov 17 15:09:38 2009 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 15:09:38 -0600 Subject: Speechless! (ebay madness alert) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B031112.4040404@gmail.com> Adrian Graham wrote: > Folks, > > Some 'artists' are mental. Discuss. > > Item 150382954132 Every artist I've known has cared about the work they produce and wanted it to last, which has meant they tend to recognise when an item has historical value and shouldn't be destroyed purely for the sake of 'art'; the things that get sacrificed are the things that they think are worthless (they don't always have good judgement in that regard, but that's a separate issue). That ebay page suggests the guy knew it was something rare and of interest when it was still intact. I think there are probably three possibilities: 1) He's a total nutball, 2) He's lying and the machine that got nuked wasn't anything special at all (with the machine shown beforehand being either faked, or the genuine thing which got swapped at the last minute), 3) Both of the above The fact that it was posted to a computing section rather than any kind of 'art' area suggests part of his aim is to stir up publicity, negative or otherwise. The fact that it's priced so insanely high suggests he doesn't *want* it to sell at all, possibly because he's worried about a fraud claim... Maybe someone clued-up knows where serial #1 is / was, as I'm surprised it hasn't passed under someone's nose at some point (if it hasn't gone to landfill year ago). cheers Jules From joachim.thiemann at gmail.com Tue Nov 17 15:33:16 2009 From: joachim.thiemann at gmail.com (Joachim Thiemann) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 16:33:16 -0500 Subject: Speechless! (ebay madness alert) In-Reply-To: <4B031112.4040404@gmail.com> References: <4B031112.4040404@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4affc5e0911171333s414fbe2dt58f3be14c81a4aac@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Nov 17, 2009 at 16:09, Jules Richardson wrote: > ?1) He's a total nutball, > ?2) He's lying and the machine that got nuked wasn't anything special at all > (with the machine shown beforehand being either faked, or the genuine thing > which got swapped at the last minute), > ?3) Both of the above > > The fact that it was posted to a computing section rather than any kind of > 'art' area suggests part of his aim is to stir up publicity, negative or > otherwise. The fact that it's priced so insanely high suggests he doesn't > *want* it to sell at all, possibly because he's worried about a fraud > claim... I agree, he seems like a total attention whore in the video. However, can _any_ fat mac be considered "historically relevant"? AFAIK, it brought nothing new to the table other than the marketing realization that selling an underpowered non-expandable computer will NOT convert the masses to your revolutionary "computing appliance". Were there even any modifications to the motherboard other than adding more or bigger RAM chips? He seems to think it's first off the line due to the "M0001W" model designation - the serial number is never shown. I have an original 128k Mac, in very nice condition, fully functional. It's not getting anywhere NEAR a microwave. :-) -- Joachim Thiemann :: http://www.tsp.ece.mcgill.ca/~jthiem From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Tue Nov 17 15:35:36 2009 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 15:35:36 -0600 Subject: Non-fake Apple 1 on ebay In-Reply-To: <4B030F17.9080703@atarimuseum.com> References: <4B02D4FD.10603@snarc.net> <4B02DABC.1070902@atarimuseum.com> <4B02DDF6.3040903@snarc.net> <4B030AEE.5020806@gmail.com> <4B030F17.9080703@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <4B031728.1070403@gmail.com> Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > There are only around 250 of them, they were hand built in Woz's garage, > mostly by Steve Woz and Jobs and only a few have surfaced over the years > making them rare and they have continued to go up in value over the > years as more and more publicly known auctions and sales have made > headlines on major site and the SJ Mercury Newspaper, so they fetch big > bucks. It's the insanely high price I can't work out, I suppose. History's littered with early 'home' machines with low production runs, and machines from that sort of era (give a couple of years!) and with that sort of spec. In terms of experience, yes it's special - but the same sort of special can be had for a fraction of the price, which means I'm struggling to get past thinking that it's maybe $2k for the physical item + ephemera, and $48k for the name of a certain piece of fruit :-) Maybe it simply comes down to the age-old "Apple people" vs. "non Apple people" thing and it just won't make sense no matter how hard I try... Or maybe, like you say, it's all just fueled by the media - one sells, media report it, generates more interest when the next one sells, media report it etc. etc. (and I do believe ebay tends to make prices go up way over and above what they'd be like if ebay didn't exist, so it can't help either) cheers Jules From oltmansg at bellsouth.net Tue Nov 17 15:40:33 2009 From: oltmansg at bellsouth.net (geoffrey oltmans) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 13:40:33 -0800 (PST) Subject: Non-fake Apple 1 on ebay In-Reply-To: <4B031728.1070403@gmail.com> References: <4B02D4FD.10603@snarc.net> <4B02DABC.1070902@atarimuseum.com> <4B02DDF6.3040903@snarc.net> <4B030AEE.5020806@gmail.com> <4B030F17.9080703@atarimuseum.com> <4B031728.1070403@gmail.com> Message-ID: <930669.27315.qm@web83908.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> I think a fairly high price is warranted based on what I've seen before. They don't come up that often for sale, but I think the starting bid is out of whack. Also out of whack is the $3000 S&H to "discourage" shipping. You'll definitely not get your price if you do that, and that's what shipping insurance is for. ________________________________ From: Jules Richardson To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Sent: Tue, November 17, 2009 3:35:36 PM Subject: Re: Non-fake Apple 1 on ebay Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > There are only around 250 of them, they were hand built in Woz's garage, mostly by Steve Woz and Jobs and only a few have surfaced over the years making them rare and they have continued to go up in value over the years as more and more publicly known auctions and sales have made headlines on major site and the SJ Mercury Newspaper, so they fetch big bucks. It's the insanely high price I can't work out, I suppose. History's littered with early 'home' machines with low production runs, and machines from that sort of era (give a couple of years!) and with that sort of spec. In terms of experience, yes it's special - but the same sort of special can be had for a fraction of the price, which means I'm struggling to get past thinking that it's maybe $2k for the physical item + ephemera, and $48k for the name of a certain piece of fruit :-) Maybe it simply comes down to the age-old "Apple people" vs. "non Apple people" thing and it just won't make sense no matter how hard I try... Or maybe, like you say, it's all just fueled by the media - one sells, media report it, generates more interest when the next one sells, media report it etc. etc. (and I do believe ebay tends to make prices go up way over and above what they'd be like if ebay didn't exist, so it can't help either) cheers Jules From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Nov 17 15:53:05 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 16:53:05 -0500 Subject: Speechless! (ebay madness alert) In-Reply-To: <4affc5e0911171333s414fbe2dt58f3be14c81a4aac@mail.gmail.com> References: <4B031112.4040404@gmail.com> <4affc5e0911171333s414fbe2dt58f3be14c81a4aac@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: > However, can _any_ fat mac be considered "historically relevant"? For that matter, can any of the first generation Macs really be called "rare"? There are still lots of 128K and FatMacs out there. Consider this - the behavior on this list regarding the piece pretty much proves that it is indeed a successful artwork, at least on the small scale. The point of Dada *IS* to be anti-art, and to cause the public reactions that we are witnessing here. The bigger the reaction, the more successful the piece, to the point that the content really does not matter. And consider this - what if this piece REALLY catches on, and ends up in a museum (I doubt it - it is kind of derivative - trashed computers as art is nothing new) - what then? Will its value as art exceed its value as an artifact? What if it was an Apple 1 and ended up at MoMA? Cripes, guys - I am by no means an art nut, but compared to you bunch of cavemen... -- Will From dgahling at hotmail.com Tue Nov 17 15:57:17 2009 From: dgahling at hotmail.com (Dan Gahlinger) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 16:57:17 -0500 Subject: Speechless! (ebay madness alert) In-Reply-To: <4affc5e0911171333s414fbe2dt58f3be14c81a4aac@mail.gmail.com> References: , <4B031112.4040404@gmail.com>, <4affc5e0911171333s414fbe2dt58f3be14c81a4aac@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: If it was the *real* #1 (it's not) I'm sure there'd be a note from Woz and Steve available authenticating it. After all, if you were a real collector and fan of the hardware, and you had the real #1, you'd probably go out of your way to keep it pristine, but also to get it autographed by Woz and Steve, and a note from them validating it. that being said, Steve and/or Woz probably has #1 if it's still around. someone should drop the ebay link in their email, I'm sure they wouldn't be happy with it. _________________________________________________________________ Ready. Set. Get a great deal on Windows 7. See fantastic deals on Windows 7 now http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9691818 From caveguy at sbcglobal.net Tue Nov 17 15:59:39 2009 From: caveguy at sbcglobal.net (Bob Bradlee) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 16:59:39 -0500 Subject: Speechless! (ebay madness alert) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <676607.86075.qm@smtp119.sbc.mail.re3.yahoo.com> On Tue, 17 Nov 2009 16:53:05 -0500, William Donzelli wrote: >Cripes, guys - I am by no means an art nut, but compared to you bunch >of cavemen... Ok lets not get personal :) From sethm at loomcom.com Tue Nov 17 16:03:32 2009 From: sethm at loomcom.com (Seth Morabito) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 14:03:32 -0800 Subject: Non-fake Apple 1 on ebay In-Reply-To: <4B031728.1070403@gmail.com> References: <4B02D4FD.10603@snarc.net> <4B02DABC.1070902@atarimuseum.com> <4B02DDF6.3040903@snarc.net> <4B030AEE.5020806@gmail.com> <4B030F17.9080703@atarimuseum.com> <4B031728.1070403@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Nov 17, 2009, at 1:35 PM, Jules Richardson wrote: > Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: >> There are only around 250 of them, they were hand built in Woz's >> garage, mostly by Steve Woz and Jobs and only a few have surfaced >> over the years making them rare and they have continued to go up in >> value over the years as more and more publicly known auctions and >> sales have made headlines on major site and the SJ Mercury >> Newspaper, so they fetch big bucks. > > It's the insanely high price I can't work out, I suppose. History's > littered with early 'home' machines with low production runs, and > machines from that sort of era (give a couple of years!) and with > that sort of spec. Why is an ounce of gold worth $1000? Because that's what people will pay for it. It has no inherent use; you can't eat it, you can't live in it, you can't keep warm with it. But someone will give you $800 for it and come away feeling like they've got a great bargain indeed. They are expensive because they are very rare. They are expensive because they are the "first" for a very well known company. Why is the first issue of "Action Comics" worth so much more than the sixth issue (by a factor of 24!), or worth so much more than the first issue of "Wonder Comics"? Because it's a first, and because it's very rare, and it's from a very well known name, and therefore people will pay money for it. Same with the Apple I. There's nothing to get, really, apart from human nature. -Seth From oltmansg at bellsouth.net Tue Nov 17 16:10:24 2009 From: oltmansg at bellsouth.net (geoffrey oltmans) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 14:10:24 -0800 (PST) Subject: Non-fake Apple 1 on ebay In-Reply-To: References: <4B02D4FD.10603@snarc.net> <4B02DABC.1070902@atarimuseum.com> <4B02DDF6.3040903@snarc.net> <4B030AEE.5020806@gmail.com> <4B030F17.9080703@atarimuseum.com> <4B031728.1070403@gmail.com> Message-ID: <239054.26744.qm@web83907.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> I agree with this completely. It is rare, historically relevant, and was a fairly popular kit computer for the time. It's also by a company that still exists today, unlike every other kit computer from the 70's, and as such has a wide fanbase. ________________________________ From: Seth Morabito To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Sent: Tue, November 17, 2009 4:03:32 PM Subject: Re: Non-fake Apple 1 on ebay On Nov 17, 2009, at 1:35 PM, Jules Richardson wrote: > Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: >> There are only around 250 of them, they were hand built in Woz's garage, mostly by Steve Woz and Jobs and only a few have surfaced over the years making them rare and they have continued to go up in value over the years as more and more publicly known auctions and sales have made headlines on major site and the SJ Mercury Newspaper, so they fetch big bucks. > > It's the insanely high price I can't work out, I suppose. History's littered with early 'home' machines with low production runs, and machines from that sort of era (give a couple of years!) and with that sort of spec. Why is an ounce of gold worth $1000? Because that's what people will pay for it. It has no inherent use; you can't eat it, you can't live in it, you can't keep warm with it. But someone will give you $800 for it and come away feeling like they've got a great bargain indeed. They are expensive because they are very rare. They are expensive because they are the "first" for a very well known company. Why is the first issue of "Action Comics" worth so much more than the sixth issue (by a factor of 24!), or worth so much more than the first issue of "Wonder Comics"? Because it's a first, and because it's very rare, and it's from a very well known name, and therefore people will pay money for it. Same with the Apple I. There's nothing to get, really, apart from human nature. -Seth From geneb at deltasoft.com Tue Nov 17 16:13:36 2009 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 14:13:36 -0800 (PST) Subject: Speechless! (ebay madness alert) In-Reply-To: <676607.86075.qm@smtp119.sbc.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <676607.86075.qm@smtp119.sbc.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > On Tue, 17 Nov 2009 16:53:05 -0500, William Donzelli wrote: > >> Cripes, guys - I am by no means an art nut, but compared to you bunch >> of cavemen... > Mongo smash! g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Nov 17 16:21:35 2009 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 17:21:35 -0500 Subject: Non-fake Apple 1 on ebay In-Reply-To: References: <4B02D4FD.10603@snarc.net> <4B02DABC.1070902@atarimuseum.com> <4B02DDF6.3040903@snarc.net> <4B030AEE.5020806@gmail.com> <4B030F17.9080703@atarimuseum.com> <4B031728.1070403@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B0321EF.9010303@gmail.com> Seth Morabito wrote: > Why is an ounce of gold worth $1000? Because that's what people will pay > for it. It has no inherent use; you can't eat it, you can't live in it, > you can't keep warm with it. But someone will give you $800 for it and > come away feeling like they've got a great bargain indeed. Bad example. Gold is quite useful, inherently. Peace... Sridhar From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Nov 17 16:32:19 2009 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 14:32:19 -0800 Subject: Non-fake Apple 1 on ebay In-Reply-To: References: <4B02D4FD.10603@snarc.net> <4B02DABC.1070902@atarimuseum.com> <4B02DDF6.3040903@snarc.net> <4B030AEE.5020806@gmail.com> <4B030F17.9080703@atarimuseum.com> <4B031728.1070403@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B032473.1060006@bitsavers.org> >>> There are only around 250 of them http://www.vintage.org/content.php?id=a02 Only 200 Apple-1's were ever sold, and fewer still exist today. "Most Apple-1 owners took advantage of a two-for-one deal offered by Apple when they came out with their then new Apple ][ computer", reports Ismail. "They traded in two Apple-1 computers for a new Apple ][. All but one of the Apple-1's that were turned in to Apple were destroyed." Ismail estimates that fewer than 50 examples of the Apple-1 exist today. From cclist at sydex.com Tue Nov 17 16:37:04 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 14:37:04 -0800 Subject: Non-fake Apple 1 on ebay In-Reply-To: References: <4B02D4FD.10603@snarc.net>, <4B031728.1070403@gmail.com>, Message-ID: <4B02B510.17621.14B644D@cclist.sydex.com> On 17 Nov 2009 at 14:03, Seth Morabito wrote: > Why is an ounce of gold worth $1000? Because that's what people will > pay for it. It has no inherent use; you can't eat it, you can't live > in it, you can't keep warm with it. On the other hand, it resists corrosion, has good electrical and thermal conductivity and is quite ductile. Not many metals share the same characteristics. So it does have inherent use. My wife plays a flute that's made of a gold alloy and she says it lends a warmer tone to the sound than does silver. But then, polonium is even more uncommon than gold but I wouldn't want to make wearable trinkets with it unless I were a sociopath. --Chuck From dkelvey at hotmail.com Tue Nov 17 16:36:01 2009 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 14:36:01 -0800 Subject: Non-fake Apple 1 on ebay In-Reply-To: <4B030F17.9080703@atarimuseum.com> References: <4B02D4FD.10603@snarc.net>,<4B02DABC.1070902@atarimuseum.com> <4B02DDF6.3040903@snarc.net>, <4B030AEE.5020806@gmail.com>, <4B030F17.9080703@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: > Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 16:01:11 -0500 > From: curt at atarimuseum.com > To: > Subject: Re: Non-fake Apple 1 on ebay > > There are only around 250 of them, they were hand built in Woz's garage, > mostly by Steve Woz and Jobs and only a few have surfaced over the years > making them rare and they have continued to go up in value over the > years as more and more publicly known auctions and sales have made > headlines on major site and the SJ Mercury Newspaper, so they fetch big > bucks. > Hi While there may have been only 250 made, many where returned to Apple in exchange for a Apple II. The number must be someplace in the low tens. At least it is a real one and not a known replica like that previous scum bucket tried to pass off as a real one. I wish no one had bought it, for any price. That guy was a lier and dishonest from the start. He gave me a story that turned out to be a complete lie. As was mentioned, the starting price is unlikely to get any takers. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Bing brings you maps, menus, and reviews organized in one place. http://www.bing.com/search?q=restaurants&form=MFESRP&publ=WLHMTAG&crea=TEXT_MFESRP_Local_MapsMenu_Resturants_1x1 From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Nov 17 17:18:04 2009 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 15:18:04 -0800 Subject: Non-fake Apple 1 on ebay In-Reply-To: <4B02B510.17621.14B644D@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4B02D4FD.10603@snarc.net>, <4B031728.1070403@gmail.com>, <4B02B510.17621.14B644D@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4B032F2C.1040400@bitsavers.org> If anyone is keeping track, the current one http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?VISuperSize&item=320447681957 is #82 the one that sold for 19K http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?VISuperSize&item=320431509242 is #49 and the one I scanned that is on bitsavers is #37 From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Nov 17 17:18:09 2009 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 18:18:09 -0500 Subject: Non-fake Apple 1 on ebay In-Reply-To: <4B02B510.17621.14B644D@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4B02D4FD.10603@snarc.net>, <4B031728.1070403@gmail.com>, <4B02B510.17621.14B644D@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4B032F31.3090709@gmail.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: >> Why is an ounce of gold worth $1000? Because that's what people will >> pay for it. It has no inherent use; you can't eat it, you can't live >> in it, you can't keep warm with it. > > On the other hand, it resists corrosion, has good electrical and > thermal conductivity and is quite ductile. Not many metals share the > same characteristics. So it does have inherent use. My wife plays a > flute that's made of a gold alloy and she says it lends a warmer tone > to the sound than does silver. > > But then, polonium is even more uncommon than gold but I wouldn't > want to make wearable trinkets with it unless I were a sociopath. As far as commodity values of metals, isn't the peak rhodium or iridium or something like that? Peace... Sridhar From sethm at loomcom.com Tue Nov 17 17:31:17 2009 From: sethm at loomcom.com (Seth Morabito) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 15:31:17 -0800 Subject: Non-fake Apple 1 on ebay In-Reply-To: <4B0321EF.9010303@gmail.com> References: <4B02D4FD.10603@snarc.net> <4B02DABC.1070902@atarimuseum.com> <4B02DDF6.3040903@snarc.net> <4B030AEE.5020806@gmail.com> <4B030F17.9080703@atarimuseum.com> <4B031728.1070403@gmail.com> <4B0321EF.9010303@gmail.com> Message-ID: <2C163E22-27AD-409E-9DC3-1D9E1DA34799@loomcom.com> On Nov 17, 2009, at 2:21 PM, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Seth Morabito wrote: >> Why is an ounce of gold worth $1000? Because that's what people >> will pay >> for it. It has no inherent use; you can't eat it, you can't live in >> it, >> you can't keep warm with it. But someone will give you $800 for it >> and >> come away feeling like they've got a great bargain indeed. > > Bad example. Gold is quite useful, inherently. Alright, I will concede that gold is a useful metal, but I stand firm in that its price is not _primarily_ tied to its usefulness to industry or science. And I think my larger point is still quite valid. If another example is needed, I'll simply state a name that should be familiar to fans and critics of modern art alike: Jackson Pollock. His 1948 painting "No. 5" sold for $140,000,000.00 in 2006. I can't judge its aesthetics, but that is certainly more than I can possibly imagine it is worth inherently. Yet someone was willing to pay it, so that's its value -- with the caveat, of course, that tomorrow it may be worth half as much, or twice as much, depending on what the market demands. The same goes for anything, Apple I's included. -Seth From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Tue Nov 17 17:48:53 2009 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 23:48:53 +0000 Subject: Non-fake Apple 1 on ebay In-Reply-To: References: <4B02D4FD.10603@snarc.net> <4B02DABC.1070902@atarimuseum.com> <4B02DDF6.3040903@snarc.net> <4B030AEE.5020806@gmail.com> <4B030F17.9080703@atarimuseum.com> <4B031728.1070403@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B033665.5000206@philpem.me.uk> Seth Morabito wrote: > Why is an ounce of gold worth $1000? Because that's what people will pay > for it. It has no inherent use; you can't eat it, you can't live in it, > you can't keep warm with it. But someone will give you $800 for it and > come away feeling like they've got a great bargain indeed. I was thinking about this while I was on the bus the other day. Diamond I can see going for a significant amount (it has a fair few industrial and commercial uses) though the only use I could come up with for gold was the plating on edge connectors... Then we get onto platinum.. Catalytic converters were the only use I could think of for that. Didn't manage to think of a single commercial or industrial use for silver at all... All I came up with was the obvious one -- jewellery, aka "some people think it makes them more attractive". A dog with a silver collar is still a dog. Then my thoughts moved towards "so what's the point of the universe?". This happens more than you might think. Speaking of which I'd kill for a clear sky, and a citywide power cut! Heck, even killing off the neighbours' security lights would be a nice compromise... Missed the Leonids last night, and it's been nigh-impossible to stargaze around here for ages. You can sort-of see Orion's Belt (though not at this time of year, obviously), but that's it. Even a long exposure on the DSLR doesn't fare much better. -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Nov 17 17:57:29 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 18:57:29 -0500 Subject: Non-fake Apple 1 on ebay In-Reply-To: <4B033665.5000206@philpem.me.uk> References: <4B02D4FD.10603@snarc.net> <4B02DABC.1070902@atarimuseum.com> <4B02DDF6.3040903@snarc.net> <4B030AEE.5020806@gmail.com> <4B030F17.9080703@atarimuseum.com> <4B031728.1070403@gmail.com> <4B033665.5000206@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: > > I was thinking about this while I was on the bus the other day. Diamond I > can see going for a significant amount (it has a fair few industrial and > commercial uses) Diamond is a bad example. Thank DeBeers. > though the only use I could come up with for gold was the > plating on edge connectors... Plating on a whole lot of other things as well. > Didn't manage to think of a single commercial or > industrial use for silver at all... Plating and contacts. I think (much) more silver is used by industry than gold. Wiki for more info. -- Will From curt at atarimuseum.com Tue Nov 17 18:04:22 2009 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 19:04:22 -0500 Subject: Non-fake Apple 1 on ebay In-Reply-To: References: <4B02D4FD.10603@snarc.net> <4B02DABC.1070902@atarimuseum.com> <4B02DDF6.3040903@snarc.net> <4B030AEE.5020806@gmail.com> <4B030F17.9080703@atarimuseum.com> <4B031728.1070403@gmail.com> <4B033665.5000206@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4B033A06.5010705@atarimuseum.com> Very good point Will -- DeBeers regulates just how many diamonds are out in the open market at any time, hence keeping demand at a high and keeping diamonds from devaluing... all the while hording immense amounts of diamonds in its private stash and releasing them at a controlled rate. William Donzelli wrote: >> I was thinking about this while I was on the bus the other day. Diamond I >> can see going for a significant amount (it has a fair few industrial and >> commercial uses) >> > > Diamond is a bad example. Thank DeBeers. > > >> though the only use I could come up with for gold was the >> plating on edge connectors... >> > > Plating on a whole lot of other things as well. > > >> Didn't manage to think of a single commercial or >> industrial use for silver at all... >> > > Plating and contacts. I think (much) more silver is used by industry than gold. > > Wiki for more info. > > -- > Will > > From cclist at sydex.com Tue Nov 17 18:39:45 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 16:39:45 -0800 Subject: Non-fake Apple 1 on ebay In-Reply-To: <4B032F31.3090709@gmail.com> References: <4B02D4FD.10603@snarc.net>, <4B02B510.17621.14B644D@cclist.sydex.com>, <4B032F31.3090709@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B02D1D1.14778.1BBB49F@cclist.sydex.com> On 17 Nov 2009 at 18:18, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > As far as commodity values of metals, isn't the peak rhodium or > iridium or something like that? The current spot price of rhodium is about USD$2500 per troy ounce, or about twice the price of the same weight of gold. Commercial uses of silver abound. In addition to being a component of certain solders/brazes, it's used extensively in electroplating Indeed, flutes are commonly made with at least the headjoint being solid silver. Several of my tubas are plated with it. Unlike, say, nickel, contact dermatitis is rare. (Silver plating actually hails back before electroplating techniques; in the 16th--18th centuries, an amalgam was made and painted on brass or copper, then heated, which boiled off the mercury and left the silver behind as a thin plating). How about those dental fillings? Another amalgam of silver. Among metals, silver has the highest thermal and electrical conductivity. It's also used for mirrors. Silver is still used in photography and much is still used for radiography. Indeed, one can argue that silver has far more uses than gold, even if you leave out high-end audiophile speaker cables. --Chuck From als at thangorodrim.de Tue Nov 17 18:37:48 2009 From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 01:37:48 +0100 Subject: Non-fake Apple 1 on ebay In-Reply-To: <4B033665.5000206@philpem.me.uk> References: <4B02D4FD.10603@snarc.net> <4B02DABC.1070902@atarimuseum.com> <4B02DDF6.3040903@snarc.net> <4B030AEE.5020806@gmail.com> <4B030F17.9080703@atarimuseum.com> <4B031728.1070403@gmail.com> <4B033665.5000206@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <20091118003748.GC7017@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> On Tue, Nov 17, 2009 at 11:48:53PM +0000, Philip Pemberton wrote: > Seth Morabito wrote: >> Why is an ounce of gold worth $1000? Because that's what people will >> pay for it. It has no inherent use; you can't eat it, you can't live in >> it, you can't keep warm with it. But someone will give you $800 for it >> and come away feeling like they've got a great bargain indeed. > > I was thinking about this while I was on the bus the other day. Diamond > I can see going for a significant amount (it has a fair few industrial > and commercial uses) Thanks to DeBeers the prices for (jewelry) diamonds are nowhere near realistic prices and _massively_ controlled. > though the only use I could come up with for gold > was the plating on edge connectors... For ICs, the bonding wires between chip and chip carrier. Also various gold plated contacts (for durability and good connections). > Then we get onto platinum.. Catalytic converters were the only use I > could think of for that. Didn't manage to think of a single commercial > or industrial use for silver at all... There a quite a few: - traces on PCBs as well as contacts for superior conductivity - batteries - optics (both for mirrors and coatings, although the way cheaper aluminium is often used) - as a catalyst and quite a few more uses Also as a permanent germ killer (silver is rather unhealthy to a lot of germs, while quite harmless to humans). Regards, Alex. -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Nov 17 18:47:26 2009 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 19:47:26 -0500 Subject: Non-fake Apple 1 on ebay In-Reply-To: <4B02D1D1.14778.1BBB49F@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4B02D4FD.10603@snarc.net>, <4B02B510.17621.14B644D@cclist.sydex.com>, <4B032F31.3090709@gmail.com> <4B02D1D1.14778.1BBB49F@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4B03441E.2040705@gmail.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: >> As far as commodity values of metals, isn't the peak rhodium or >> iridium or something like that? > > The current spot price of rhodium is about USD$2500 per troy ounce, > or about twice the price of the same weight of gold. I just remembered. It's rhenium. $6000-*mumble* per ounce. Peace... Sridhar From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Tue Nov 17 18:58:46 2009 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 00:58:46 +0000 Subject: Non-fake Apple 1 on ebay In-Reply-To: <4B02D1D1.14778.1BBB49F@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4B02D4FD.10603@snarc.net>, <4B02B510.17621.14B644D@cclist.sydex.com>, <4B032F31.3090709@gmail.com> <4B02D1D1.14778.1BBB49F@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4B0346C6.7060708@philpem.me.uk> Chuck Guzis wrote: > Silver is still used in photography and much is still used for > radiography. Argh, Silver Halide film emulsions. I'm surprised I didn't get that one... I spent most of last week mixing ID11 and Rapid Fixer. Good fun. Until you forget to measure the temperature of the developer, under-develop the film, and don't wash it enough in the stopbath to remove the anti-halation dye. Then for bonus points I caught the film on the worktop and ripped half the emulsion off. ID11 and Delta400 are not forgiving. Not in the least. At least HP5 is a bit more idiot-proof. -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From cclist at sydex.com Tue Nov 17 19:00:31 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 17:00:31 -0800 Subject: Non-fake Apple 1 on ebay In-Reply-To: <4B03441E.2040705@gmail.com> References: <4B02D4FD.10603@snarc.net>, <4B02D1D1.14778.1BBB49F@cclist.sydex.com>, <4B03441E.2040705@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B02D6AF.14583.1CEB985@cclist.sydex.com> On 17 Nov 2009 at 19:47, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > I just remembered. It's rhenium. $6000-*mumble* per ounce. No, 6 large will get you about a kg: http://www.minormetals.com/index.aspx?mode=re Rhodium on the other hand, is priced per troy oz. --Chuck From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Tue Nov 17 19:02:21 2009 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 01:02:21 +0000 Subject: Non-fake Apple 1 on ebay In-Reply-To: <20091118003748.GC7017@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> References: <4B02D4FD.10603@snarc.net> <4B02DABC.1070902@atarimuseum.com> <4B02DDF6.3040903@snarc.net> <4B030AEE.5020806@gmail.com> <4B030F17.9080703@atarimuseum.com> <4B031728.1070403@gmail.com> <4B033665.5000206@philpem.me.uk> <20091118003748.GC7017@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> Message-ID: <4B03479D.5050302@philpem.me.uk> Alexander Schreiber wrote: (Uses for silver) > There a quite a few: > - traces on PCBs as well as contacts for superior conductivity Can't say I've ever seen a silver-plated PCB. I've seen tin-plated and gold-plated, though. > - batteries Ah, good old silver-oxide watch batteries. Forgot about those. The slightly longer-life alternative to alkalines that nobody seems to stock (LR44s are everywhere but SR44s are considerably harder to find). > Also as a permanent germ killer (silver is rather unhealthy to a lot of > germs, while quite harmless to humans). *searches the Wiki* Huh. Forgot about that one too. Silver tableware? Although that's on the boundary line between ornament and tool... -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Nov 17 19:05:10 2009 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 18:05:10 -0700 Subject: Non-fake Apple 1 on ebay In-Reply-To: <4B02D1D1.14778.1BBB49F@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4B02D4FD.10603@snarc.net>, <4B02B510.17621.14B644D@cclist.sydex.com>, <4B032F31.3090709@gmail.com> <4B02D1D1.14778.1BBB49F@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4B034846.8050304@jetnet.ab.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote: > > Indeed, one can argue that silver has far more uses than gold, even > if you leave out high-end audiophile speaker cables. You forgot silver wire in audio transformers.! > --Chuck > From cclist at sydex.com Tue Nov 17 19:10:56 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 17:10:56 -0800 Subject: Non-fake Apple 1 on ebay In-Reply-To: <4B0346C6.7060708@philpem.me.uk> References: <4B02D4FD.10603@snarc.net>, <4B02D1D1.14778.1BBB49F@cclist.sydex.com>, <4B0346C6.7060708@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4B02D920.14704.1D84500@cclist.sydex.com> On 18 Nov 2009 at 0:58, Philip Pemberton wrote: > ID11 and Delta400 are not forgiving. Not in the least. At least HP5 is > a bit more idiot-proof. Sorry Phil, I grew up on Kodak photo chemicals. Mostly D-76 for film and Dektol for paper. But it's been several decades since I last had brown hands... --Chuck From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Nov 17 19:24:00 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 20:24:00 -0500 Subject: Non-fake Apple 1 on ebay In-Reply-To: <4B03441E.2040705@gmail.com> References: <4B02D4FD.10603@snarc.net> <4B02B510.17621.14B644D@cclist.sydex.com> <4B032F31.3090709@gmail.com> <4B02D1D1.14778.1BBB49F@cclist.sydex.com> <4B03441E.2040705@gmail.com> Message-ID: > I just remembered. ?It's rhenium. ?$6000-*mumble* per ounce. The most expensive thing I can think of is Boron - specifically the purified B10 isotope. I once had a pair of ancient neutron detector probes, with the inner surfaces coated with the stuff. The price makes gold look like dog food - $10K per gram, roughly. -- Will From teoz at neo.rr.com Tue Nov 17 19:31:32 2009 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 20:31:32 -0500 Subject: Non-fake Apple 1 on ebay References: <4B02D4FD.10603@snarc.net>, <4B02B510.17621.14B644D@cclist.sydex.com>, <4B032F31.3090709@gmail.com> <4B02D1D1.14778.1BBB49F@cclist.sydex.com> <4B034846.8050304@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <7B32CB1E93B74C5097D3BC4314A7855F@dell8300> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ben" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 2009 8:05 PM Subject: Re: Non-fake Apple 1 on ebay > Chuck Guzis wrote: >> >> Indeed, one can argue that silver has far more uses than gold, even if >> you leave out high-end audiophile speaker cables. > > You forgot silver wire in audio transformers.! > >> --Chuck >> Back in the 90's I noticed higher amperage mechanical contactors had large silver pads for contacts. Also some quick disconnect cables for power were silver as well. There are probably other industrial applications that use gold and silver that nobody notices. On a side note the ancient romans used to use silver staples to close wounds, something doctors might have started doing again recently. From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Tue Nov 17 19:34:45 2009 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 17:34:45 -0800 Subject: OT expensive stuff / was Re: Non-fake Apple 1 on ebay References: <4B02D4FD.10603@snarc.net> <4B02B510.17621.14B644D@cclist.sydex.com> <4B032F31.3090709@gmail.com> <4B02D1D1.14778.1BBB49F@cclist.sydex.com> <4B03441E.2040705@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B034F35.14D1A67C@cs.ubc.ca> William Donzelli wrote: > > > I just remembered. ?It's rhenium. ?$6000-*mumble* per ounce. > > The most expensive thing I can think of is Boron - specifically the > purified B10 isotope. I once had a pair of ancient neutron detector > probes, with the inner surfaces coated with the stuff. The price makes > gold look like dog food - $10K per gram, roughly. For expensive-stuff-by-weight, one need look no further than the local grocery store to find Saffron at $12/g, or (arguably the equivalent of) $12,000/Kg. From teoz at neo.rr.com Tue Nov 17 19:34:40 2009 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 20:34:40 -0500 Subject: Non-fake Apple 1 on ebay References: <4B02D4FD.10603@snarc.net><4B02B510.17621.14B644D@cclist.sydex.com> <4B032F31.3090709@gmail.com><4B02D1D1.14778.1BBB49F@cclist.sydex.com> <4B03441E.2040705@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4D5157B789DF46AB982D7C91DD6D0333@dell8300> ----- Original Message ----- From: "William Donzelli" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 2009 8:24 PM Subject: Re: Non-fake Apple 1 on ebay > I just remembered. It's rhenium. $6000-*mumble* per ounce. The most expensive thing I can think of is Boron - specifically the purified B10 isotope. I once had a pair of ancient neutron detector probes, with the inner surfaces coated with the stuff. The price makes gold look like dog food - $10K per gram, roughly. -- Will Easier to find and cheaper then pure Plutonium I would think. From cclist at sydex.com Tue Nov 17 19:43:15 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 17:43:15 -0800 Subject: Non-fake Apple 1 on ebay In-Reply-To: <20091118003748.GC7017@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> References: <4B02D4FD.10603@snarc.net>, <4B033665.5000206@philpem.me.uk>, <20091118003748.GC7017@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> Message-ID: <4B02E0B3.1669.1F5D8F6@cclist.sydex.com> On 18 Nov 2009 at 1:37, Alexander Schreiber wrote: > Also as a permanent germ killer (silver is rather unhealthy to a lot > of germs, while quite harmless to humans). But see "argyria" and for a Y2K slant, "Stan Jones"... I once had a friend (now deceased) who believed that she could not get enough selenium. --Chuck From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Nov 17 19:44:50 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 20:44:50 -0500 Subject: Non-fake Apple 1 on ebay In-Reply-To: <4D5157B789DF46AB982D7C91DD6D0333@dell8300> References: <4B02D4FD.10603@snarc.net> <4B02B510.17621.14B644D@cclist.sydex.com> <4B032F31.3090709@gmail.com> <4B02D1D1.14778.1BBB49F@cclist.sydex.com> <4B03441E.2040705@gmail.com> <4D5157B789DF46AB982D7C91DD6D0333@dell8300> Message-ID: > Easier to find and cheaper then pure Plutonium I would think. I do not think so - the process is pretty much the same (centrifuges). It is sort of like heavy water - abundant like crazy, but just try to isolate it. -- Will From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Tue Nov 17 19:52:48 2009 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 17:52:48 -0800 Subject: Speechless! (ebay madness alert) References: <4B031112.4040404@gmail.com> <4affc5e0911171333s414fbe2dt58f3be14c81a4aac@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B035370.DEB04B45@cs.ubc.ca> William Donzelli wrote: > > > However, can _any_ fat mac be considered "historically relevant"? > > For that matter, can any of the first generation Macs really be called > "rare"? There are still lots of 128K and FatMacs out there. > > Consider this - the behavior on this list regarding the piece pretty > much proves that it is indeed a successful artwork, at least on the > small scale. The point of Dada *IS* to be anti-art, and to cause the > public reactions that we are witnessing here. The bigger the reaction, > the more successful the piece, to the point that the content really > does not matter. > > And consider this - what if this piece REALLY catches on, and ends up > in a museum (I doubt it - it is kind of derivative - trashed computers > as art is nothing new) - what then? Will its value as art exceed its > value as an artifact? What if it was an Apple 1 and ended up at MoMA? > > Cripes, guys - I am by no means an art nut, but compared to you bunch > of cavemen... .. one might even suggest that those bitching about it have been co-opted into being part of the art project. My bitch would be that even as Dadaist art it's not particularly new or revelatory, hence: ..yawn.. nothing to get excited about on any count. From dkelvey at hotmail.com Tue Nov 17 19:48:31 2009 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 17:48:31 -0800 Subject: Non-fake Apple 1 on ebay In-Reply-To: <7B32CB1E93B74C5097D3BC4314A7855F@dell8300> References: <4B02D4FD.10603@snarc.net>, , <4B02B510.17621.14B644D@cclist.sydex.com>, , <4B032F31.3090709@gmail.com> <4B02D1D1.14778.1BBB49F@cclist.sydex.com>, <4B034846.8050304@jetnet.ab.ca>, <7B32CB1E93B74C5097D3BC4314A7855F@dell8300> Message-ID: ---------------------------------------- > From: teoz at neo.rr.com > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Non-fake Apple 1 on ebay > Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 20:31:32 -0500 > > ---snip--- > > Back in the 90's I noticed higher amperage mechanical contactors had large > silver pads for contacts. Also some quick disconnect cables for power were > silver as well. There are probably other industrial applications that use > gold and silver that nobody notices. > > On a side note the ancient romans used to use silver staples to close > wounds, something doctors might have started doing again recently. We used to rewind slotcar motors with silver plated wire. Even though the plating was thin, it made a difference. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail: Trusted email with powerful SPAM protection. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/177141665/direct/01/ From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Nov 17 19:58:37 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 20:58:37 -0500 Subject: Non-fake Apple 1 on ebay In-Reply-To: References: <4B02D4FD.10603@snarc.net>, , <4B02B510.17621.14B644D@cclist.sydex.com>, , <4B032F31.3090709@gmail.com> <4B02D1D1.14778.1BBB49F@cclist.sydex.com>, <4B034846.8050304@jetnet.ab.ca>, <7B32CB1E93B74C5097D3BC4314A7855F@dell8300> Message-ID: <3364B345-01C1-4BB4-B778-66519EA9979F@neurotica.com> On Nov 17, 2009, at 8:48 PM, dwight elvey wrote: >> Back in the 90's I noticed higher amperage mechanical contactors >> had large >> silver pads for contacts. Also some quick disconnect cables for >> power were >> silver as well. There are probably other industrial applications >> that use >> gold and silver that nobody notices. >> >> On a side note the ancient romans used to use silver staples to close >> wounds, something doctors might have started doing again recently. > > We used to rewind slotcar motors with silver plated > wire. Even though the plating was thin, it made > a difference. I^2R, with lots of I and a nontrivial R...I can easily see that making a noticeable difference. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cclist at sydex.com Tue Nov 17 20:07:12 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 18:07:12 -0800 Subject: Non-fake Apple 1 on ebay In-Reply-To: References: <4B02D4FD.10603@snarc.net>, <4D5157B789DF46AB982D7C91DD6D0333@dell8300>, Message-ID: <4B02E650.18867.20BC709@cclist.sydex.com> On 17 Nov 2009 at 20:44, William Donzelli wrote: > I do not think so - the process is pretty much the same (centrifuges). > It is sort of like heavy water - abundant like crazy, but just try to > isolate it. Yes, but wouldn't that be true of many isotopically-pure substances, not just boron 10? --Chuck From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Nov 17 20:19:58 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 21:19:58 -0500 Subject: Non-fake Apple 1 on ebay In-Reply-To: <4B02E650.18867.20BC709@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4B02D4FD.10603@snarc.net> <4D5157B789DF46AB982D7C91DD6D0333@dell8300> <4B02E650.18867.20BC709@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > Yes, but wouldn't that be true of many isotopically-pure substances, > not just boron 10? Yes, but most of those other substances are not useful, or no more useful that the normal mix of isotopes found in nature. B10 is (or was, I think they use something else these days), even if it is a one trick pony. -- Will From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Nov 17 20:50:52 2009 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 18:50:52 -0800 (PST) Subject: Non-fake Apple 1 on ebay In-Reply-To: <20091118003748.GC7017@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> from Alexander Schreiber at "Nov 18, 9 01:37:48 am" Message-ID: <200911180250.nAI2oqMw015822@floodgap.com> > Also as a permanent germ killer (silver is rather unhealthy to a lot of > germs, while quite harmless to humans). On surfaces, yes. But I've encountered people who picked up serious permanent deposits from ingesting it. Probably not harmful, but I doubt they liked the effect. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- "Now you're playing with POWER!" ------------------------------------------- From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Nov 17 20:53:31 2009 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 21:53:31 -0500 Subject: Non-fake Apple 1 on ebay In-Reply-To: <200911180250.nAI2oqMw015822@floodgap.com> References: <200911180250.nAI2oqMw015822@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <4B0361AB.6070304@gmail.com> Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> Also as a permanent germ killer (silver is rather unhealthy to a lot of >> germs, while quite harmless to humans). > > On surfaces, yes. But I've encountered people who picked up serious > permanent deposits from ingesting it. Probably not harmful, but I doubt > they liked the effect. What? Their skin turned blue? Peace... Sridhar From brain at jbrain.com Tue Nov 17 21:25:47 2009 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 21:25:47 -0600 Subject: Non-fake Apple 1 on ebay In-Reply-To: <4B03479D.5050302@philpem.me.uk> References: <4B02D4FD.10603@snarc.net> <4B02DABC.1070902@atarimuseum.com> <4B02DDF6.3040903@snarc.net> <4B030AEE.5020806@gmail.com> <4B030F17.9080703@atarimuseum.com> <4B031728.1070403@gmail.com> <4B033665.5000206@philpem.me.uk> <20091118003748.GC7017@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> <4B03479D.5050302@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4B03693B.8080204@jbrain.com> Philip Pemberton wrote: > > Can't say I've ever seen a silver-plated PCB. I've seen tin-plated and > gold-plated, though. Silver immersion: http://www.jbrain.com/vicug/gallery/uIEC/IMG_1861_001 http://www.jbrain.com/vicug/gallery/uIEC/IMG_1857 Jim From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Nov 17 22:17:39 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 20:17:39 -0800 (PST) Subject: Non-fake Apple 1 on ebay In-Reply-To: <4B033665.5000206@philpem.me.uk> References: <4B02D4FD.10603@snarc.net> <4B02DABC.1070902@atarimuseum.com> <4B02DDF6.3040903@snarc.net> <4B030AEE.5020806@gmail.com> <4B030F17.9080703@atarimuseum.com> <4B031728.1070403@gmail.com> <4B033665.5000206@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <20091117201414.H55218@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 17 Nov 2009, Philip Pemberton wrote: > and commercial uses) though the only use I could come up with for gold > was the plating on edge connectors... or anything else that needs to be inert > could think of for that. Didn't manage to think of a single commercial > or industrial use for silver at all... remember photographic film? > Then my thoughts moved towards "so what's the point of the universe?". must have been a helluva bus ride! From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Nov 17 22:40:24 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 20:40:24 -0800 (PST) Subject: OT expensive stuff / was Re: Non-fake Apple 1 on ebay In-Reply-To: <4B034F35.14D1A67C@cs.ubc.ca> References: <4B02D4FD.10603@snarc.net> <4B02B510.17621.14B644D@cclist.sydex.com> <4B032F31.3090709@gmail.com> <4B02D1D1.14778.1BBB49F@cclist.sydex.com> <4B03441E.2040705@gmail.com> <4B034F35.14D1A67C@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <20091117203800.L55218@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 17 Nov 2009, Brent Hilpert wrote: > For expensive-stuff-by-weight, one need look no further than the local > grocery store to find Saffron at $12/g, or (arguably the equivalent > of) $12,000/Kg. I would guess that what one of my neighbors grows in his back yard would probably fetch a lot of money. From evan at snarc.net Tue Nov 17 22:52:37 2009 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 23:52:37 -0500 Subject: Speechless! (ebay madness alert) Message-ID: <4B037D95.6000800@snarc.net> I sent a question to the seller, asking for clarification about the serial number. This is the (insane) reply that I got: ------------------ evan_k, thank you for asking about this fine microwaved masterpiece of fine art. This was a perfectly working complete unaltered Mac 512k before it was microwaved by the AMIR 9000 One Ton Microwaving Robot, now a first of it's kind. It is now an incredible work of art considered to be priceless and even better than before it was microwaved. The artist also known as your professional microwave operator waited 25 years to microwave this computer. Some things only just get better with age especially when it comes to the world of art. You can be assured that a fine connoisseur of art will acquire this work of art. The artists has sold artworks to collectors which include Dale Djerassi [son of the of Carl Djerassi who invented the birth control pill, Georgia Frontier just to name a couple. He has also been featured internationally in numerous prominent publications that have included HGTV, OPRAH, TLC, People magazine, Mal Sharp's Weird Rooms Book, CNN, Good morning show, 100 Hojdare Sweden, Urdu Magazine, Los Angeles Times and so on. He also was featured at the most prominent modern art museum in Baltimore called the AVAM. You can be sure this art is authentic, original & sign and dated by the artist & guaranteed microwaved. From starbase89 at gmail.com Tue Nov 17 23:15:04 2009 From: starbase89 at gmail.com (Joe Giliberti) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 00:15:04 -0500 Subject: Speechless! (ebay madness alert) In-Reply-To: <4B037D95.6000800@snarc.net> References: <4B037D95.6000800@snarc.net> Message-ID: <2b1f1f550911172115l1e35704u9b7363b3d42cc8c7@mail.gmail.com> I wonder if there is any way to determine who the "artist" is, and more relevant, how old (s)he is. I'd be willing to bet the 13-20 age range. On Tue, Nov 17, 2009 at 11:52 PM, Evan Koblentz wrote: > I sent a question to the seller, asking for clarification about the serial > number. This is the (insane) reply that I got: > > ------------------ > evan_k, thank you for asking about this fine microwaved masterpiece of fine > art. This was a perfectly working complete unaltered Mac 512k before it was > microwaved by the AMIR 9000 One Ton Microwaving Robot, now a first of it's > kind. It is now an incredible work of art considered to be priceless and > even better than before it was microwaved. The artist also known as your > professional microwave operator waited 25 years to microwave this computer. > Some things only just get better with age especially when it comes to the > world of art. You can be assured that a fine connoisseur of art will acquire > this work of art. The artists has sold artworks to collectors which include > Dale Djerassi [son of the of Carl Djerassi who invented the birth control > pill, Georgia Frontier just to name a couple. He has also been featured > internationally in numerous prominent publications that have included HGTV, > OPRAH, TLC, People magazine, Mal Sharp's Weird Rooms Book, CNN, Good morning > show, 100 Hojdare Sweden, Urdu Magazine, Los Angeles Times and so on. He > also was featured at the most prominent modern art museum in Baltimore > called the AVAM. > > You can be sure this art is authentic, original & sign and dated by the > artist & guaranteed microwaved. > > From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Nov 17 23:20:54 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 00:20:54 -0500 Subject: Speechless! (ebay madness alert) In-Reply-To: <2b1f1f550911172115l1e35704u9b7363b3d42cc8c7@mail.gmail.com> References: <4B037D95.6000800@snarc.net> <2b1f1f550911172115l1e35704u9b7363b3d42cc8c7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: ...probably closer to 13... On Nov 18, 2009, at 12:15 AM, Joe Giliberti wrote: > I wonder if there is any way to determine who the "artist" is, and > more > relevant, how old (s)he is. I'd be willing to bet the 13-20 age range. > > On Tue, Nov 17, 2009 at 11:52 PM, Evan Koblentz > wrote: > >> I sent a question to the seller, asking for clarification about >> the serial >> number. This is the (insane) reply that I got: >> >> ------------------ >> evan_k, thank you for asking about this fine microwaved >> masterpiece of fine >> art. This was a perfectly working complete unaltered Mac 512k >> before it was >> microwaved by the AMIR 9000 One Ton Microwaving Robot, now a first >> of it's >> kind. It is now an incredible work of art considered to be >> priceless and >> even better than before it was microwaved. The artist also known >> as your >> professional microwave operator waited 25 years to microwave this >> computer. >> Some things only just get better with age especially when it comes >> to the >> world of art. You can be assured that a fine connoisseur of art >> will acquire >> this work of art. The artists has sold artworks to collectors >> which include >> Dale Djerassi [son of the of Carl Djerassi who invented the birth >> control >> pill, Georgia Frontier just to name a couple. He has also been >> featured >> internationally in numerous prominent publications that have >> included HGTV, >> OPRAH, TLC, People magazine, Mal Sharp's Weird Rooms Book, CNN, >> Good morning >> show, 100 Hojdare Sweden, Urdu Magazine, Los Angeles Times and so >> on. He >> also was featured at the most prominent modern art museum in >> Baltimore >> called the AVAM. >> >> You can be sure this art is authentic, original & sign and dated >> by the >> artist & guaranteed microwaved. >> >> -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From evan at snarc.net Tue Nov 17 23:28:05 2009 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 00:28:05 -0500 Subject: Speechless! (ebay madness alert) In-Reply-To: <2b1f1f550911172115l1e35704u9b7363b3d42cc8c7@mail.gmail.com> References: <4B037D95.6000800@snarc.net> <2b1f1f550911172115l1e35704u9b7363b3d42cc8c7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B0385E5.5010601@snarc.net> >>> I wonder if there is any way to determine who the "artist" is One way is to read the ebay ad ..... it says ... From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Nov 17 23:28:46 2009 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 00:28:46 -0500 Subject: Speechless! (ebay madness alert) In-Reply-To: <4B037D95.6000800@snarc.net> References: <4B037D95.6000800@snarc.net> Message-ID: <4B03860E.605@gmail.com> Evan Koblentz wrote: > I sent a question to the seller, asking for clarification about the > serial number. This is the (insane) reply that I got: This guy is cuckoo. Peace... Sridhar From cclist at sydex.com Wed Nov 18 00:05:27 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 22:05:27 -0800 Subject: Non-fake Apple 1 on ebay In-Reply-To: References: <4B02D4FD.10603@snarc.net>, <4B02E650.18867.20BC709@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4B031E27.12041.2E5E867@cclist.sydex.com> On 17 Nov 2009 at 21:19, William Donzelli wrote: > Yes, but most of those other substances are not useful, or no more > useful that the normal mix of isotopes found in nature. B10 is (or > was, I think they use something else these days), even if it is a one > trick pony. I wonder what the price of a microgram of U235 is currently? Doing a little reading, I see the that use of B10 is as a neutron capture agent. It apparently has a role in some experimental nuclear medicine (Google BNCT for "Boron Neutron Capture Therapy"). Cheers, Chuck From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Nov 18 00:36:40 2009 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 22:36:40 -0800 (PST) Subject: tape "load and save" to a PC/Mac Message-ID: <200911180636.nAI6aeVn012342@floodgap.com> I'm working on a Tomy Tutor tape decoder because, well, no one else is. To that end, this weekend I managed to crack the encoding and now have a primitive tape decoder that reads an AIFF audio file and spits out bits for a higher-level decoder to process. To date I can now see the bit pattern for the GRAPHIC paintbox, and can even do rudimentary decoding of BASIC programs. So far so good. However, playing back that exact uncompressed 44.1kHz 16-bit mono AIFF into the Tutor doesn't work (before you ask, the Tutor's tape inputs are mono). The Tutor doesn't see the sync mark, and never loads the "tape." I recorded this a few times, making sure that all the output got on the audio file, and no dice. I also played with line levels and varied the output volume level through all the fine steps the Mac would let me step, and the Tutor just sits there. Have people discovered any gotchas in general about using PC audio files to load and save from tape, besides the obvious ones like don't compress, etc.? Any suggestions about how to make the Mac's output more acceptable to the Tutor? -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Adore, v.: To venerate expectantly. -- Ambrose Bierce ---------------------- From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Wed Nov 18 00:38:23 2009 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 22:38:23 -0800 (PST) Subject: Non-fake Apple 1 on ebay In-Reply-To: <4B031E27.12041.2E5E867@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4B02D4FD.10603@snarc.net>, <4B02E650.18867.20BC709@cclist.sydex.com>, <4B031E27.12041.2E5E867@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 17 Nov 2009, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 17 Nov 2009 at 21:19, William Donzelli wrote: > >> Yes, but most of those other substances are not useful, or no more >> useful that the normal mix of isotopes found in nature. B10 is (or >> was, I think they use something else these days), even if it is a one >> trick pony. > > I wonder what the price of a microgram of U235 is currently? I have some uranium-bearing rocks. There's bound to be a gram or two in there. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Nov 18 00:39:49 2009 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 22:39:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: Non-fake Apple 1 on ebay In-Reply-To: <4B0361AB.6070304@gmail.com> from Sridhar Ayengar at "Nov 17, 9 09:53:31 pm" Message-ID: <200911180639.nAI6dnbh015510@floodgap.com> > > > Also as a permanent germ killer (silver is rather unhealthy to a lot of > > > germs, while quite harmless to humans). > > > > On surfaces, yes. But I've encountered people who picked up serious > > permanent deposits from ingesting it. Probably not harmful, but I doubt > > they liked the effect. > > What? Their skin turned blue? As a matter of fact, yes. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Don't have a spasm. -- Nabiki, "Ranma 1/2" --------------------------------- From pontus at Update.UU.SE Wed Nov 18 01:34:21 2009 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 08:34:21 +0100 Subject: Speechless! (ebay madness alert) In-Reply-To: <4B037D95.6000800@snarc.net> References: <4B037D95.6000800@snarc.net> Message-ID: <20091118073421.GA7466@Update.UU.SE> > magazine, Mal Sharp's Weird Rooms Book, CNN, Good morning show, 100 > Hojdare Sweden, Urdu Magazine, Los Angeles Times and so on. He also hahaha, I didn't want to get into this discussion (it is waaay of topic), but reading that he bragged about being on "100 H?jdare Sweden" made me snicker. That "prominent show" makes a point of featuring nutjobs such as "pull-a-car-with-your-dick man" and "married-to-the-berlin-wall woman". There are lots of clips on youtube if you are curious :D In fact, here is the clip with Kenny the microwaver: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d6C7PWeu0u4 Cheers, Pontus. From cclist at sydex.com Wed Nov 18 02:02:35 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 00:02:35 -0800 Subject: Non-fake Apple 1 on ebay In-Reply-To: References: <4B02D4FD.10603@snarc.net>, <4B031E27.12041.2E5E867@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4B03399B.23086.3512326@cclist.sydex.com> On 17 Nov 2009 at 22:38, David Griffith wrote: > I have some uranium-bearing rocks. There's bound to be a gram or two > in there. I don't know the exact numbers, but I'll wager there must be at least an ounce of gold in a cubic mile of sea water. No--like Will's B-10, I meant a microgram of HEU 235. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Wed Nov 18 02:04:13 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 00:04:13 -0800 Subject: tape "load and save" to a PC/Mac In-Reply-To: <200911180636.nAI6aeVn012342@floodgap.com> References: <200911180636.nAI6aeVn012342@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <4B0339FD.9395.352A263@cclist.sydex.com> On 17 Nov 2009 at 22:36, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > Have people discovered any gotchas in general about using PC audio > files to load and save from tape, besides the obvious ones like don't > compress, etc.? Any suggestions about how to make the Mac's output > more acceptable to the Tutor? A low-pass filter? How does the waveform look on a 'scope? --Chuck From tanderberg_99 at yahoo.com Tue Nov 17 09:33:11 2009 From: tanderberg_99 at yahoo.com (ck) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 07:33:11 -0800 (PST) Subject: RGB-VGA Converter -- buy or build? Message-ID: <916572.12125.qm@web31102.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I would like to build a RGB-VGA converter but I don't know how to design one. If you have a circuit diagram, I would like to obtain it. I have an old RS6000 320H computer which has RGB 3 BNC with sync on green. It also says "separate". It also says that 1280 * 1048(something like that). The original monitor (IBM 6091-19)has H freq =63.35kHz (something like that), V = 60 Hz. Could you help me with the circuit? Thanks Chungduck Ko From jws at jwsss.com Tue Nov 17 13:42:21 2009 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 11:42:21 -0800 Subject: Non-fake Apple 1 on ebay In-Reply-To: <154461.29364.qm@web110614.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <154461.29364.qm@web110614.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4B02FC9D.4060906@jwsss.com> That may be Ebay's fault, unless the guy put in shipping costs. Their shipping cost calculator is notorious for coming up with bad estimates. Maybe he put in armed escort by air for the cost... Jim steven stengel wrote: > ...and shipping is only $3,092.27 UPS Next Day Air! > > > > --- On Tue, 11/17/09, Evan Koblentz wrote: > > >> From: Evan Koblentz >> Subject: Non-fake Apple 1 on ebay >> To: "On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" >> Date: Tuesday, November 17, 2009, 8:53 AM >> 320447681957 >> >> ... Speaking of crazy prices ... >> >> > > > > > > From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Nov 18 02:23:46 2009 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 03:23:46 -0500 Subject: RGB-VGA Converter -- buy or build? In-Reply-To: <916572.12125.qm@web31102.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <916572.12125.qm@web31102.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4B03AF12.7040107@gmail.com> ck wrote: > I would like to build a RGB-VGA converter but I don't know how to design one. If you have a circuit diagram, I would like to obtain it. > > I have an old RS6000 320H computer which has RGB 3 BNC with sync on green. It also says "separate". It also says that 1280 * 1048(something like that). The original monitor (IBM 6091-19)has H freq =63.35kHz (something like that), V = 60 Hz. > > Could you help me with the circuit? Why build? You can get one for about $10. Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Nov 18 03:10:46 2009 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 04:10:46 -0500 Subject: Non-fake Apple 1 on ebay In-Reply-To: References: <4B02D4FD.10603@snarc.net>, <4B02E650.18867.20BC709@cclist.sydex.com>, <4B031E27.12041.2E5E867@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4B03BA16.5010301@gmail.com> David Griffith wrote: >>> Yes, but most of those other substances are not useful, or no more >>> useful that the normal mix of isotopes found in nature. B10 is (or >>> was, I think they use something else these days), even if it is a one >>> trick pony. >> >> I wonder what the price of a microgram of U235 is currently? > > I have some uranium-bearing rocks. There's bound to be a gram or two in > there. It's not how much is in there, it's how hard it is to get it out. Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Nov 18 03:11:41 2009 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 04:11:41 -0500 Subject: Non-fake Apple 1 on ebay In-Reply-To: <200911180639.nAI6dnbh015510@floodgap.com> References: <200911180639.nAI6dnbh015510@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <4B03BA4D.8010202@gmail.com> Cameron Kaiser wrote: >>>> Also as a permanent germ killer (silver is rather unhealthy to a lot of >>>> germs, while quite harmless to humans). >>> >>> On surfaces, yes. But I've encountered people who picked up serious >>> permanent deposits from ingesting it. Probably not harmful, but I doubt >>> they liked the effect. >> >> What? Their skin turned blue? > > As a matter of fact, yes. Yeah, I figured as much. *the Smurfs' theme song plays* Peace... Sridhar From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Wed Nov 18 03:28:13 2009 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 10:28:13 +0100 (CET) Subject: RGB-VGA Converter -- buy or build? In-Reply-To: <4B03AF12.7040107@gmail.com> References: <916572.12125.qm@web31102.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4B03AF12.7040107@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 18 Nov 2009, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > ck wrote: >> I would like to build a RGB-VGA converter but I don't know how to design >> one. If you have a circuit diagram, I would like to obtain it. >> >> I have an old RS6000 320H computer which has RGB 3 BNC with sync on green. > > Why build? You can get one for about $10. True, and it's not even a converter, just a simple adapter. The so-called VGA connector (i.e. DE15) already provides RGB signals, so no need to convert anything. Christian From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Nov 18 03:31:52 2009 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 04:31:52 -0500 Subject: RGB-VGA Converter -- buy or build? In-Reply-To: References: <916572.12125.qm@web31102.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4B03AF12.7040107@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B03BF08.3060106@gmail.com> Christian Corti wrote: >>> I would like to build a RGB-VGA converter but I don't know how to >>> design one. If you have a circuit diagram, I would like to obtain it. >>> >>> I have an old RS6000 320H computer which has RGB 3 BNC with sync on >>> green. >> >> Why build? You can get one for about $10. > > True, and it's not even a converter, just a simple adapter. The > so-called VGA connector (i.e. DE15) already provides RGB signals, so no > need to convert anything. He's going the other way around. Trying to hook a VGA monitor to an RS/6000. Peace... Sridhar From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Wed Nov 18 03:37:16 2009 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 10:37:16 +0100 Subject: tape "load and save" to a PC/Mac In-Reply-To: <200911180636.nAI6aeVn012342@floodgap.com> References: <200911180636.nAI6aeVn012342@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <5337730147834E58A247F1821FAD6031@xp1800> > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Namens Cameron Kaiser > Verzonden: woensdag 18 november 2009 7:37 > Aan: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Onderwerp: tape "load and save" to a PC/Mac > > I'm working on a Tomy Tutor tape decoder because, well, no > one else is. To that end, this weekend I managed to crack the > encoding and now have a primitive tape decoder that reads an > AIFF audio file and spits out bits for a higher-level decoder > to process. To date I can now see the bit pattern for the > GRAPHIC paintbox, and can even do rudimentary decoding of > BASIC programs. > So far so good. > > However, playing back that exact uncompressed 44.1kHz 16-bit > mono AIFF into the Tutor doesn't work (before you ask, the > Tutor's tape inputs are mono). > The Tutor doesn't see the sync mark, and never loads the > "tape." I recorded this a few times, making sure that all the > output got on the audio file, and no dice. I also played with > line levels and varied the output volume level through all > the fine steps the Mac would let me step, and the Tutor just > sits there. > > Have people discovered any gotchas in general about using PC > audio files to load and save from tape, besides the obvious > ones like don't compress, etc.? Any suggestions about how to > make the Mac's output more acceptable to the Tutor? > > -- > ------------------------------------ personal: > http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- > Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * > ckaiser at floodgap.com > -- Adore, v.: To venerate expectantly. -- Ambrose Bierce > ---------------------- I suppose the Tomy Tutor uses FSK or something like that as codec. You should find out the base frequentie and use a (analog)low pass filter to filter out any spikes and smoothing the signal. Old cassette tapes have a band pass between 200-6000Hz (10k for metal tapes) using a filter would smooth the signal with more change for succes. -Rik From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Wed Nov 18 03:38:30 2009 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 09:38:30 +0000 Subject: Non-fake Apple 1 on ebay In-Reply-To: <4B02D920.14704.1D84500@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4B02D4FD.10603@snarc.net>, <4B02D1D1.14778.1BBB49F@cclist.sydex.com>, <4B0346C6.7060708@philpem.me.uk> <4B02D920.14704.1D84500@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4B03C096.90607@philpem.me.uk> Chuck Guzis wrote: > Sorry Phil, I grew up on Kodak photo chemicals. Mostly D-76 for > film and Dektol for paper. ID11 is basically D76 with an Ilford twist. Same basic chemical constituents, same process times and temperatures, and so on. > But it's been several decades since I > last had brown hands... Photochemicals don't usually turn your hands brown -- most of them are clear (with the exception of indicator stopbaths which are either yellow, purple or some colour in between depending on their current pH). Now ferric chloride PCB etchant on the other hand.... That stuff is just nasty. Normally when I etch PCBs, I drill a hole into the corner and insert a bit of hookup wire into the hole to when removing the board from the tank. Problem is, in this case I forgot to do that -- so I drained the tank and retrieved the board from the bottom of the tank. In hindsight I should have washed the inside of the tank before shoving my hand in there.. I ended up with bright yellow stains half-way up my arm. That's not a mistake you tend to make twice. On the plus side, it's still cheaper (and somewhat easier to handle) than persulphate based etchants. -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Wed Nov 18 03:41:09 2009 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 09:41:09 +0000 Subject: Non-fake Apple 1 on ebay In-Reply-To: <20091117201414.H55218@shell.lmi.net> References: <4B02D4FD.10603@snarc.net> <4B02DABC.1070902@atarimuseum.com> <4B02DDF6.3040903@snarc.net> <4B030AEE.5020806@gmail.com> <4B030F17.9080703@atarimuseum.com> <4B031728.1070403@gmail.com> <4B033665.5000206@philpem.me.uk> <20091117201414.H55218@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4B03C135.2010603@philpem.me.uk> Fred Cisin wrote: >> Then my thoughts moved towards "so what's the point of the universe?". > > must have been a helluva bus ride! 45 minutes stuck in traffic. If nothing else, it was a LONG bus ride. (It normally takes about 20 minutes) -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From thrashbarg at kaput.homeunix.org Wed Nov 18 04:06:37 2009 From: thrashbarg at kaput.homeunix.org (Alexis) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 20:36:37 +1030 Subject: RGB-VGA Converter -- buy or build? In-Reply-To: <916572.12125.qm@web31102.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <916572.12125.qm@web31102.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200911182036.37231.thrashbarg@kaput.homeunix.org> On Wed, 18 Nov 2009 02:03:11 am ck wrote: > I would like to build a RGB-VGA converter but I don't know how to design > one. If you have a circuit diagram, I would like to obtain it. > > I have an old RS6000 320H computer which has RGB 3 BNC with sync on green. > It also says "separate". It also says that 1280 * 1048(something like > that). The original monitor (IBM 6091-19)has H freq =63.35kHz (something > like that), V = 60 Hz. > > Could you help me with the circuit? > Thanks > Chungduck Ko > I reckon if you got an LM1881 sync separator and wired the Green output to the composite input, it'd give you horizontal and vertical sync that can be put into a VGA monitor. A quick Google gives this website, which details it... http://www.tkk.fi/Misc/Electronics/faq/vga2rgb/vgamonitor.html Cheers, Alexis. From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Nov 18 04:08:12 2009 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 05:08:12 -0500 Subject: RGB-VGA Converter -- buy or build? In-Reply-To: <200911182036.37231.thrashbarg@kaput.homeunix.org> References: <916572.12125.qm@web31102.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <200911182036.37231.thrashbarg@kaput.homeunix.org> Message-ID: <4B03C78C.9010309@gmail.com> Alexis wrote: > On Wed, 18 Nov 2009 02:03:11 am ck wrote: >> I would like to build a RGB-VGA converter but I don't know how to design >> one. If you have a circuit diagram, I would like to obtain it. >> >> I have an old RS6000 320H computer which has RGB 3 BNC with sync on green. >> It also says "separate". It also says that 1280 * 1048(something like >> that). The original monitor (IBM 6091-19)has H freq =63.35kHz (something >> like that), V = 60 Hz. >> >> Could you help me with the circuit? >> Thanks >> Chungduck Ko >> > > I reckon if you got an LM1881 sync separator and wired the Green output to the > composite input, it'd give you horizontal and vertical sync that can be put > into a VGA monitor. Might be easier to just use a monitor that takes SOG. There were quite a few made. Peace... Sridhar From ajp166 at verizon.net Wed Nov 18 06:39:50 2009 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 07:39:50 -0500 Subject: Non-fake Apple 1 on ebay In-Reply-To: <20091117201414.H55218@shell.lmi.net> References: <4B02D4FD.10603@snarc.net> <4B02DABC.1070902@atarimuseum.com> <4B02DDF6.3040903@snarc.net> <4B030AEE.5020806@gmail.com> <4B030F17.9080703@atarimuseum.com> <4B031728.1070403@gmail.com> <4B033665.5000206@philpem.me.uk> <20091117201414.H55218@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4B03EB16.6010405@verizon.net> Fred Cisin wrote: > On Tue, 17 Nov 2009, Philip Pemberton wrote: > >> and commercial uses) though the only use I could come up with for gold >> was the plating on edge connectors... >> > > or anything else that needs to be inert > > Gold doped semiconductors like Schotkey diodes. >> could think of for that. Didn't manage to think of a single commercial >> or industrial use for silver at all... >> > > remember photographic film? > > Relay contacts, low resistance films, plating for high power RF tanks and wave guides where surface corrosion is a problem. Allison From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Nov 18 08:04:41 2009 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 06:04:41 -0800 (PST) Subject: tape "load and save" to a PC/Mac In-Reply-To: <4B0339FD.9395.352A263@cclist.sydex.com> from Chuck Guzis at "Nov 18, 9 00:04:13 am" Message-ID: <200911181404.nAIE4fXw010480@floodgap.com> > > Have people discovered any gotchas in general about using PC audio > > files to load and save from tape, besides the obvious ones like don't > > compress, etc.? Any suggestions about how to make the Mac's output > > more acceptable to the Tutor? > > A low-pass filter? How does the waveform look on a 'scope? The Tutor doesn't save tape as FSK or KCS; it's actually just pulses, i.e., -||-|--|-||-|--|-- It reminds me more of the Commodore Datasette than the Texas Instruments machines the Tutor was descended from, actually. The trick with decoding it wasn't per se figuring out the frequencies, it was figuring out what pulse pattern meant which bit, and then shuffling the bits around until I got some sort of framing that made sense. But that's what makes the playback problem mystifying because this should be very simple to generate and play back. I don't see what a filter would do to help here necessarily unless I'm misunderstanding the alleged purpose. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- LOAD"STANDARD DISCLAIMER",8,1 ---------------------------------------------- From pontus at Update.UU.SE Wed Nov 18 08:48:26 2009 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 15:48:26 +0100 Subject: Free ND-110/CX Message-ID: <20091118144826.GA27911@Update.UU.SE> Hi all! I'm somewhat swamped in old computer gear and thought I should see if anyone wants to take care of my Norsk Data ND-110/CX. It is a rather large machine, as can be seen on toresbe's site: http://folk.uio.no/toresbe/nd/history_files/nd-100.jpg It comes with a matching terminal with keyboard, just as on the picture. I have gotten it boot, but it probably needs a bit of love. So, free for pickup in Uppsala Sweden. If you want it shipped I will need some "motivation". If nobody wants it, it will go into longtime storage, this is not a rescue call. Cheers, Pontus. From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Wed Nov 18 08:52:23 2009 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 15:52:23 +0100 Subject: tape "load and save" to a PC/Mac In-Reply-To: <200911181404.nAIE4fXw010480@floodgap.com> References: <4B0339FD.9395.352A263@cclist.sydex.com> from Chuck Guzis at "Nov18, 9 00:04:13 am" <200911181404.nAIE4fXw010480@floodgap.com> Message-ID: > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Namens Cameron Kaiser > Verzonden: woensdag 18 november 2009 15:05 > Aan: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Onderwerp: Re: tape "load and save" to a PC/Mac > > > > Have people discovered any gotchas in general about using > PC audio > > > files to load and save from tape, besides the obvious ones like > > > don't compress, etc.? Any suggestions about how to make the Mac's > > > output more acceptable to the Tutor? > > > > A low-pass filter? How does the waveform look on a 'scope? > > The Tutor doesn't save tape as FSK or KCS; it's actually just > pulses, i.e., > > -||-|--|-||-|--|-- > > It reminds me more of the Commodore Datasette than the Texas > Instruments machines the Tutor was descended from, actually. > > The trick with decoding it wasn't per se figuring out the > frequencies, it was figuring out what pulse pattern meant > which bit, and then shuffling the bits around until I got > some sort of framing that made sense. But that's what makes > the playback problem mystifying because this should be very > simple to generate and play back. I don't see what a filter > would do to help here necessarily unless I'm misunderstanding > the alleged purpose. > > -- > ------------------------------------ personal: > http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- > Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * > ckaiser at floodgap.com > -- LOAD"STANDARD DISCLAIMER",8,1 > ---------------------------------------------- And putting your output on a tape and trying to load that ? Because if that's a working soluntion a filter should do something.. If there tape is generating only pulses the rise time could be affecting the smitt trigger or other signal shaping circuit. Another thing, is it possible the tape set some kind of signal like write enable or read etc.. And last but not least, some tape stored programs have a kind of lead-in with enables the computer to sync on the tape signal. -Rik From als at thangorodrim.de Wed Nov 18 08:48:22 2009 From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 15:48:22 +0100 Subject: Non-fake Apple 1 on ebay In-Reply-To: <4B02E0B3.1669.1F5D8F6@cclist.sydex.com> References: <20091118003748.GC7017@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> <4B02E0B3.1669.1F5D8F6@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20091118144822.GA17001@sam.angband.thangorodrim.de> On Tue, Nov 17, 2009 at 05:43:15PM -0800, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 18 Nov 2009 at 1:37, Alexander Schreiber wrote: > > > Also as a permanent germ killer (silver is rather unhealthy to a lot > > of germs, while quite harmless to humans). > > But see "argyria" and for a Y2K slant, "Stan Jones"... > > I once had a friend (now deceased) who believed that she could not > get enough selenium. Cue old Paracelsus "Sola dosis facit venenum" (It's the dose that makes the poison). Yes, while silver is normally quite harmless to humans, if you ingest enough (especially in a finely divided form, "colloidal silver" *cough*), you can poison yourself. There is also water poisoning. In other news, being stupid was found to be not so healthy after all ;-) Kind regards, Alex. -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Nov 18 09:02:04 2009 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 07:02:04 -0800 (PST) Subject: tape "load and save" to a PC/Mac In-Reply-To: from Rik Bos at "Nov 18, 9 03:52:23 pm" Message-ID: <200911181502.nAIF24fM016338@floodgap.com> > And putting your output on a tape and trying to load that ? Okay, I'll try that. Have to dig out the tape recorder though :) > Because if that's a working soluntion a filter should do something.. > If there tape is generating only pulses the rise time could be affecting the > smitt trigger or other signal shaping circuit. If so, though, I should be able to compensate for that. What kinds of things could I do to the signal to make it more acceptable? > Another thing, is it possible the tape set some kind of signal like write > enable or read etc.. No, the Tomy tape recorder is a dumb recorder, I'm pretty sure. Also, there are only in and out data lines on the cable. > And last but not least, some tape stored programs have a kind of lead-in > with enables the computer to sync on the tape signal. Yes, I have the full sync mark accounted for, and made sure I gave plenty of lead time before hitting SAVE and lead time after, so I'm sure I have all the data. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Must have been the collard greens that made me lose control! -- "In the Mix" From dkelvey at hotmail.com Wed Nov 18 09:05:33 2009 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 07:05:33 -0800 Subject: tape "load and save" to a PC/Mac In-Reply-To: <200911181404.nAIE4fXw010480@floodgap.com> References: <4B0339FD.9395.352A263@cclist.sydex.com> from Chuck Guzis at "Nov 18, 9 00:04:13 am",<200911181404.nAIE4fXw010480@floodgap.com> Message-ID: Hi It might be the phase of the signal that counts. The Poly88 used a manchester encoding and It had a switch to select the right phase ( normal or inverted ). Dwight ---------------------------------------- > From: spectre at floodgap.com > Subject: Re: tape "load and save" to a PC/Mac > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 06:04:41 -0800 > >>> Have people discovered any gotchas in general about using PC audio >>> files to load and save from tape, besides the obvious ones like don't >>> compress, etc.? Any suggestions about how to make the Mac's output >>> more acceptable to the Tutor? >> >> A low-pass filter? How does the waveform look on a 'scope? > > The Tutor doesn't save tape as FSK or KCS; it's actually just pulses, i.e., > > -||-|--|-||-|--|-- > > It reminds me more of the Commodore Datasette than the Texas Instruments > machines the Tutor was descended from, actually. > > The trick with decoding it wasn't per se figuring out the frequencies, it > was figuring out what pulse pattern meant which bit, and then shuffling the > bits around until I got some sort of framing that made sense. But that's > what makes the playback problem mystifying because this should be very > simple to generate and play back. I don't see what a filter would do to help > here necessarily unless I'm misunderstanding the alleged purpose. > > -- > ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- > Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com > -- LOAD"STANDARD DISCLAIMER",8,1 ---------------------------------------------- _________________________________________________________________ Bing brings you maps, menus, and reviews organized in one place. http://www.bing.com/search?q=restaurants&form=MFESRP&publ=WLHMTAG&crea=TEXT_MFESRP_Local_MapsMenu_Resturants_1x1 From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Nov 18 09:17:21 2009 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 07:17:21 -0800 (PST) Subject: tape "load and save" to a PC/Mac In-Reply-To: from dwight elvey at "Nov 18, 9 07:05:33 am" Message-ID: <200911181517.nAIFHLfp014076@floodgap.com> > Hi > It might be the phase of the signal that counts. > The Poly88 used a manchester encoding and It had > a switch to select the right phase ( normal or inverted ). But wouldn't the sync mark handle getting the proper phase (i.e., the adjustment to properly read the pulses)? Or do I misunderstand what you're referring to by phase? -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- I would like to achieve [immortality] by not dying. -- Woody Allen --------- From dkelvey at hotmail.com Wed Nov 18 09:28:13 2009 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 07:28:13 -0800 Subject: tape "load and save" to a PC/Mac In-Reply-To: <200911181517.nAIFHLfp014076@floodgap.com> References: from dwight elvey at "Nov 18, 9 07:05:33 am",<200911181517.nAIFHLfp014076@floodgap.com> Message-ID: ---------------------------------------- > From: spectre at floodgap.com > Subject: Re: tape "load and save" to a PC/Mac > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 07:17:21 -0800 > >> Hi >> It might be the phase of the signal that counts. >> The Poly88 used a manchester encoding and It had >> a switch to select the right phase ( normal or inverted ). > > But wouldn't the sync mark handle getting the proper phase (i.e., the > adjustment to properly read the pulses)? Or do I misunderstand what you're > referring to by phase? > Hi No, it doesn't in the Poly88. Each recorder has a different number of inversions. The manchester encoding is sensitive to the phase. The pulses may be a fast rise and slow fall. This would also make it phase sensitive as well. Think in terms of a logical inverter only for the audio. Imagine a pulse detector that is looking for rising edges and then invert the data. Since it is looking for the time between pulses, it would be completely wrong. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Windows 7: I wanted simpler, now it's simpler. I'm a rock star. http://www.microsoft.com/Windows/windows-7/default.aspx?h=myidea?ocid=PID24727::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WWL_WIN_myidea:112009 From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Wed Nov 18 09:49:47 2009 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 16:49:47 +0100 Subject: tape "load and save" to a PC/Mac In-Reply-To: <200911181517.nAIFHLfp014076@floodgap.com> References: from dwight elveyat "Nov 18, 9 07:05:33 am" <200911181517.nAIFHLfp014076@floodgap.com> Message-ID: > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Namens Cameron Kaiser > Verzonden: woensdag 18 november 2009 16:17 > Aan: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Onderwerp: Re: tape "load and save" to a PC/Mac > > > Hi > > It might be the phase of the signal that counts. > > The Poly88 used a manchester encoding and It had a switch to select > > the right phase ( normal or inverted ). > > But wouldn't the sync mark handle getting the proper phase > (i.e., the adjustment to properly read the pulses)? Or do I > misunderstand what you're referring to by phase? > > -- > ------------------------------------ personal: > http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- > Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * > ckaiser at floodgap.com > -- I would like to achieve [immortality] by not dying. -- > Woody Allen --------- I think he means, the signal after sync mark should be in fase with the sync mark or 180 degrees out of fase. Did you compare the tape signals with the signals you're generating with a scoop or may be using a spectrum analyser ? Measuring should give you some clous about the differences between the original and generated signals. Is it possible that the sync mark being to long could generate a time-out.. -Rik From rborsuk at colourfull.com Wed Nov 18 10:13:01 2009 From: rborsuk at colourfull.com (Robert Borsuk) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 11:13:01 -0500 Subject: tape "load and save" to a PC/Mac In-Reply-To: References: <4B0339FD.9395.352A263@cclist.sydex.com> from Chuck Guzis at "Nov18, 9 00:04:13 am" <200911181404.nAIE4fXw010480@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On Nov 18, 2009, at 9:52 AM, Rik Bos wrote: > > And putting your output on a tape and trying to load that ? > Because if that's a working soluntion a filter should do something.. > If there tape is generating only pulses the rise time could be affecting the > smitt trigger or other signal shaping circuit. > Another thing, is it possible the tape set some kind of signal like write > enable or read etc.. > And last but not least, some tape stored programs have a kind of lead-in > with enables the computer to sync on the tape signal. This might sound crazy but have you put the output on a tape and then tried bringing the tape output back into the Mac to watch the pattern? Rob Rob Borsuk email: rborsuk at colourfull.com Colourfull Creations Web: http://www.colourfull.com From feedle at feedle.net Wed Nov 18 10:23:33 2009 From: feedle at feedle.net (feedle) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 08:23:33 -0800 Subject: tape "load and save" to a PC/Mac In-Reply-To: <200911181502.nAIF24fM016338@floodgap.com> References: <200911181502.nAIF24fM016338@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <4B041F85.5070600@feedle.net> > If so, though, I should be able to compensate for that. What kinds of things > could I do to the signal to make it more acceptable? Have you compared the outputs with an oscilloscope? It would seem to me that five minutes with a scope would solve any problems you might be having, as any distortion in the signal caused by digitizing it would be obvious. My two immediate thoughts are: if it's "pulses", maybe the quantization is causing issues; or maybe the sample rate (or some other randomness) is introducing noise to the signal. Also, a scope should tell you if there's clipping or other analog problems (from overamplification, say). From dkelvey at hotmail.com Wed Nov 18 10:40:47 2009 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 08:40:47 -0800 Subject: tape "load and save" to a PC/Mac In-Reply-To: References: from dwight elveyat,"Nov 18, 9 07:05:33 am" <200911181517.nAIFHLfp014076@floodgap.com>, Message-ID: ---------------------------------------- > From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: RE: tape "load and save" to a PC/Mac > Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 16:49:47 +0100 >---snip--- > > I think he means, the signal after sync mark should be in fase with the sync > mark or 180 degrees out of fase. > Did you compare the tape signals with the signals you're generating with a > scoop or may be using a spectrum analyser ? > Measuring should give you some clous about the differences between the > original and generated signals. > Is it possible that the sync mark being to long could generate a time-out.. > No, I meant just what I said. Since it isn't looking for a tone, the phase of the pulse makes a big difference. A "plus to minus" pulse is not the same as a "minus to plus". Try feeding an inverted signal into your serial port. It just doesn't work. I doubt there is anything in the toy to check for correct phase and then invert all the pulses. It most likely expects rising edges to be rising and not falling. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Windows 7: I wanted simpler, now it's simpler. I'm a rock star. http://www.microsoft.com/Windows/windows-7/default.aspx?h=myidea?ocid=PID24727::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WWL_WIN_myidea:112009 From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Wed Nov 18 11:24:05 2009 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 18:24:05 +0100 (CET) Subject: RGB-VGA Converter -- buy or build? In-Reply-To: <4B03BF08.3060106@gmail.com> References: <916572.12125.qm@web31102.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4B03AF12.7040107@gmail.com> <4B03BF08.3060106@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 18 Nov 2009, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > He's going the other way around. Trying to hook a VGA monitor to an > RS/6000. That's what I had in mind. But a "VGA" monitor is still an analog RGB device with RGB signals (usually) on a DE15 connector, and doesn't need a converter. Christian From cclist at sydex.com Wed Nov 18 11:32:38 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 09:32:38 -0800 Subject: Non-fake Apple 1 on ebay In-Reply-To: <4B03C096.90607@philpem.me.uk> References: <4B02D4FD.10603@snarc.net>, <4B02D920.14704.1D84500@cclist.sydex.com>, <4B03C096.90607@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4B03BF36.13526.1C32CF@cclist.sydex.com> On 18 Nov 2009 at 9:38, Philip Pemberton wrote: > ID11 is basically D76 with an Ilford twist. Same basic chemical > constituents, same process times and temperatures, and so on. A favorite of mine was a home-cooked developer made simply of metol and borax. Slow-acting, but wonderfully long-scale. It's in the Kodak "cookbook", but I don't recall the number. > Photochemicals don't usually turn your hands brown -- most of them are > clear (with the exception of indicator stopbaths which are either > yellow, purple or some colour in between depending on their current > pH). Eventually, doing too many prints barehanded in Dektol (an old technique was to "push" areas on a print by rubbing with developer- soaked hands to raise the temperature locally.) Same idea as breathing on the area. Eventually, the developer that permeates the skin oxidizes and the hands become stained a nice brown. Tongs? They were for sissies and kept disappearing anyway. Another episode in a misspent youth. --Chuck From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Nov 18 11:34:42 2009 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 17:34:42 +0000 (GMT) Subject: tape "load and save" to a PC/Mac In-Reply-To: <200911181502.nAIF24fM016338@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <137251.53573.qm@web23405.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Exactly how long is the lead-in? I know on the Spectrum it is 4 seconds and I believe it is 2 seconds for the TRS-80. Not sure how long it is for the C64, but I'm sure you already know that. My point is that the lead-in might have to be a precise length and you might have it too long (or too short). Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk --- On Wed, 18/11/09, Cameron Kaiser wrote: From: Cameron Kaiser Subject: Re: tape "load and save" to a PC/Mac To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Date: Wednesday, 18 November, 2009, 15:02 > And putting your output on a tape and trying to load that ? Okay, I'll try that. Have to dig out the tape recorder though :) > Because if that's a working soluntion a filter should do something.. > If there tape is generating only pulses the rise time could be affecting the > smitt trigger or other signal shaping circuit. If so, though, I should be able to compensate for that. What kinds of things could I do to the signal to make it more acceptable? > Another thing, is it possible the tape set some kind of signal like write > enable or read etc.. No, the Tomy tape recorder is a dumb recorder, I'm pretty sure. Also, there are only in and out data lines on the cable. > And last but not least, some tape stored programs have a kind of lead-in > with enables the computer to sync on the tape signal. Yes, I have the full sync mark accounted for, and made sure I gave plenty of lead time before hitting SAVE and lead time after, so I'm sure I have all the data. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- ? Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Must have been the collard greens that made me lose control! -- "In the Mix" From alhartman at yahoo.com Wed Nov 18 11:57:52 2009 From: alhartman at yahoo.com (Al Hartman) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 09:57:52 -0800 (PST) Subject: Non-fake Apple 1 on ebay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <711214.99486.qm@web55302.mail.re4.yahoo.com> Can you guys please change the subject of your posts to "Rare minerals" or something. ? When I see a header that purports to talk about "Non-fake Apple 1 on ebay", I'm kinda hoping the message body actually contains text that the subject refers to... ? Thanks! From lynchaj at yahoo.com Wed Nov 18 12:37:04 2009 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 13:37:04 -0500 Subject: original Motorola 6809 demonstration hardware Message-ID: Hi! Does anyone know what hardware Motorola originally used to demonstrate the 6809? I am referring to the hardware Motorola references in the 6809 programming manual. It is the hardware that Motorola wrote their ASSIST09 debug monitor to run on. The reason I am asking is to understand how they are connecting the output of timer #1 of the MC6840 PTM to the CPU /NMI line. Specifically, is it directly connected or inverted? Is other logic involved or further qualifications? Does anyone have schematics available of the original Motorola 6809 hardware? The ASSIST09 source code implies a direct connection but that is counter intuitive to me since the /NMI line is active low and the PTM timer #1 is active high. The ASSIST09 monitor uses the PTM connected to the /NMI line for hardware assisted tracing. According to the datasheet for the 6809 and 6840, the /NMI is activated on the negative transition which would be on the falling edge of the pulse from the PTM timer output if directly connected. If inverted, it would be on the leading edge of the pulse. The reason I need this information is I am building an IO mezzanine board (ACIA, PTM, dual VIAs) for the N8VEM 6809 host processor. The good news is that I've seen the hardware assisted tracing work using the inverted output of the timer. However, the IO mezzanine is connected to the 6809 host processor by ribbon cables which are notorious for causing signal delays and other problems. As a result, the tracing is unreliable and I would like to fault isolate. The rest of ASSIST09 seems to be working reliably on my prototype hardware. Originally, I presumed Motorola designed the ASSIST09 monitor for the EXORset system since it was their first 6809 based computer and released about the same time as the 6809's introduction. If anyone has familiarity with the original Motorola hardware for the ASSIST09 debug monitor I would appreciate your help. Thanks in advance and have a nice day! Andrew Lynch I refer to these two functions in the ASSIST09 source code: ************************************************** * [SWI FUNCTION 8] * MONITOR ENTRY * FIREUP THE ASSIST09 MONITOR. * THE STACK WITH ITS VALUES FOR THE DIRECT PAGE * REGISTER AND CONDITION CODE FLAGS ARE USED AS IS. * 1) INITIALIZE CONSOLE I/O * 2) OPTIONALLY PRINT SIGNON * 3) INITIALIZE PTM FOR SINGLE STEPPING * 4) ENTER COMMAND PROCESSOR * INPUT: A=0 INIT CONSOLE AND PRINT STARTUP MESSAGE * A#0 OMIT CONSOLE INIT AND STARTUP MESSAGE ************************************************* SPC 1 SIGNON FCC /ASSIST09/ SIGNON EYE-CATCHER FCB EOT SPC 1 ZMONTR STS Message-ID: <1733D9201CF444038D6807AAF01BF367@ANTONIOPC> > >> I just remembered. It's rhenium. $6000-*mumble* per ounce. > > The most expensive thing I can think of is Boron - > specifically the purified B10 isotope. I once had a pair of > ancient neutron detector probes, with the inner surfaces > coated with the stuff. The price makes gold look like dog > food - $10K per gram, roughly. Finally I get to hear of something that costs more than inkjet ink :-) Antonio From brianlanning at gmail.com Wed Nov 18 13:13:23 2009 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 13:13:23 -0600 Subject: Non-fake Apple 1 on ebay In-Reply-To: <1733D9201CF444038D6807AAF01BF367@ANTONIOPC> References: <4D5157B789DF46AB982D7C91DD6D0333@dell8300> <1733D9201CF444038D6807AAF01BF367@ANTONIOPC> Message-ID: <6dbe3c380911181113q7050b95fta511f21e1a1b904a@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Nov 18, 2009 at 12:53 PM, wrote: > Finally I get to hear of something that costs more than inkjet ink :-) > > Antonio > > :-) http://www.stat.columbia.edu/~cook/movabletype/mlm/BloodInk.jpg From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Nov 18 13:58:47 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 11:58:47 -0800 (PST) Subject: Non-fake Apple 1 on ebay In-Reply-To: <4B03399B.23086.3512326@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4B02D4FD.10603@snarc.net>, <4B031E27.12041.2E5E867@cclist.sydex.com>, <4B03399B.23086.3512326@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20091118115449.P55218@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 18 Nov 2009, Chuck Guzis wrote: > I don't know the exact numbers, but I'll wager there must be at least > an ounce of gold in a cubic mile of sea water. No--like Will's B-10, > I meant a microgram of HEU 235. But, . . . do you actually intend to USE it? Or, as the original poster was trying to point out, is its value in being rare (as Paris Hilton's fame is for being famous), and it would be destined to sit on a shelf? -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Nov 18 14:05:25 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 12:05:25 -0800 (PST) Subject: tape "load and save" to a PC/Mac In-Reply-To: <4B0339FD.9395.352A263@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200911180636.nAI6aeVn012342@floodgap.com> <4B0339FD.9395.352A263@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20091118120233.E55218@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 18 Nov 2009, Chuck Guzis wrote: > A low-pass filter? How does the waveform look on a 'scope? Doesn't the waveform look a lot cleaner than the waveform coming back from the OEM recorder? Years ago, there were some threads here about difficulties trying to use high fidelity recordings in place of the POS recorder with the TRS80. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Nov 18 14:12:37 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 12:12:37 -0800 (PST) Subject: Non-fake Apple 1 on ebay In-Reply-To: <4B03C096.90607@philpem.me.uk> References: <4B02D4FD.10603@snarc.net>, <4B02D1D1.14778.1BBB49F@cclist.sydex.com>, <4B0346C6.7060708@philpem.me.uk> <4B02D920.14704.1D84500@cclist.sydex.com> <4B03C096.90607@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <20091118120959.C55218@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 18 Nov 2009, Philip Pemberton wrote: > ID11 is basically D76 with an Ilford twist. Same basic chemical > constituents, same process times and temperatures, and so on. "MQ"? (monomethyl-p-aminophenylchloride, paradihydroxybenzene) (probably remembered inaccurately) From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Nov 18 13:21:32 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 19:21:32 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Non-fake Apple 1 on ebay In-Reply-To: <4B030AEE.5020806@gmail.com> from "Jules Richardson" at Nov 17, 9 02:43:26 pm Message-ID: > > Evan Koblentz wrote: > > If the seller feels this unit is worth more than the others, then he > > should price it at a slight premium vs. the others, for example $30k vs. > > $20-25k. However $50k is insane, especially in this economy. > > Maybe someone can explain this to me - what the heck is the big deal about > Apple 1s? Obviously I'm in the crowd that just doesn't get it - but there's a > big crowd out there that *does* get it - whatever "it" is. They're rare. They're the first product of a computer company that's still going and that just about everybody has heard of. Why will some people pay a ridiculous amount of money for a square inch or so of paper with some ink on it? (known as a rare postage stamp, of course). I think I'd rather have an Apple 1 :-) And to get back on topic, why is a Sinclar ZX80 (which I don't own) worth many times the value of an HP workstation (which is a much better designed and built machine)? To be honest, I don't care about the value of my machines. If I see somethign that iterensts me and which I can afford, then I'll probably buy it. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Nov 18 14:00:59 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 20:00:59 +0000 (GMT) Subject: tape "load and save" to a PC/Mac In-Reply-To: <200911180636.nAI6aeVn012342@floodgap.com> from "Cameron Kaiser" at Nov 17, 9 10:36:40 pm Message-ID: Be warned that I don't even own a PC with audio recording facilities, and still use real cassettes for this sort of thing. But I can suggest some things to try.. > > I'm working on a Tomy Tutor tape decoder because, well, no one else is. To > that end, this weekend I managed to crack the encoding and now have a > primitive tape decoder that reads an AIFF audio file and spits out bits for > a higher-level decoder to process. To date I can now see the bit pattern for > the GRAPHIC paintbox, and can even do rudimentary decoding of BASIC programs. > So far so good. OK, I think we can assume you've got valid data onto the PC/Mac. > > However, playing back that exact uncompressed 44.1kHz 16-bit mono AIFF into > the Tutor doesn't work (before you ask, the Tutor's tape inputs are mono). > The Tutor doesn't see the sync mark, and never loads the "tape." I recorded > this a few times, making sure that all the output got on the audio file, > and no dice. I also played with line levels and varied the output volume > level through all the fine steps the Mac would let me step, and the Tutor > just sits there. What I would doo is grab the 'scope. Try loading a program from a real cassette and see what the signal looks like _inside the Tutor, on the input socket_. If you can get to the output of the digitising circuitry (often just a comparator) -- it's not hidding inside an ASIC -- look at that too. Then try 'playing' the signal from the PC/Mac into the Tutor. First check there's actually a signal getting throuigh the input socket (I've lost cound of the number of times I've had a mis-wired cable, or when a mix-up of stereo and mono jack plugs ('phone plugs' to you) has shorted out the signal). See if the signal is about the same amplitude. Make sure there's no mais-freqeuncy (50Hz, 60Hz, 100Hz,120Hz) ripple on it. If you can check the ouutput of the comparator stage, does that look much the same? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Nov 18 14:09:12 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 20:09:12 +0000 (GMT) Subject: RGB-VGA Converter -- buy or build? In-Reply-To: <4B03BF08.3060106@gmail.com> from "Sridhar Ayengar" at Nov 18, 9 04:31:52 am Message-ID: > He's going the other way around. Trying to hook a VGA monitor to an > RS/6000. What signals do you get from the RS/6000? I am going to guess at RGB on BNC sockets. with sync-on-green (this actually makes the green signal look like a composite monochrome video signal). Firsly, you need a monitor which will work at the right scan rates. Converting scan rates is a non-tricial project!. I have no idea what rats an RS/6000 uses, though. I believe some VGA monitors can handle sync-on-green, in which case all you need is a cable adapter. Othes need separate TTL level sync signals. You then need to build a sync separator, which you feed from the green video signal. I've always found the LM1881 chip (National Semiconductor originally, I think) or the improved versions from companies like Elantec work well here -- I am sure data sheets are on the web somewhere. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Nov 18 13:42:34 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 19:42:34 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Non-fake Apple 1 on ebay In-Reply-To: <4B033665.5000206@philpem.me.uk> from "Philip Pemberton" at Nov 17, 9 11:48:53 pm Message-ID: > could think of for that. Didn't manage to think of a single commercial > or industrial use for silver at all... WQell, apart from silver-plated wires and silver-containing solders (both the 'soft' solder usef for SMD assembly and the 'hard' silver solders used for engineering), I routinely buy one of a number of procducts coated with silver salts. After I've used said product, some of those salts are reduced to metalic silver. I refer, of course, to photograhpic film and paper. -tony From curt at atarimuseum.com Wed Nov 18 14:20:21 2009 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 15:20:21 -0500 Subject: Non-fake Apple 1 on ebay In-Reply-To: <20091118120959.C55218@shell.lmi.net> References: <4B02D4FD.10603@snarc.net>, <4B02D1D1.14778.1BBB49F@cclist.sydex.com>, <4B0346C6.7060708@philpem.me.uk> <4B02D920.14704.1D84500@cclist.sydex.com> <4B03C096.90607@philpem.me.uk> <20091118120959.C55218@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4B045705.80106@atarimuseum.com> Is there a website where Apple-1 owners register their board & serial# so there is an active tracking of who owns a real board and their serial # ? Curt From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Nov 18 14:27:11 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 12:27:11 -0800 (PST) Subject: tape "load and save" to a PC/Mac In-Reply-To: <200911181404.nAIE4fXw010480@floodgap.com> References: <200911181404.nAIE4fXw010480@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <20091118122313.F55218@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 18 Nov 2009, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > The Tutor doesn't save tape as FSK or KCS; it's actually just pulses, i.e., > > -||-|--|-||-|--|-- > > It reminds me more of the Commodore Datasette than the Texas Instruments > machines the Tutor was descended from, actually. > > The trick with decoding it wasn't per se figuring out the frequencies, it > was figuring out what pulse pattern meant which bit, and then shuffling the > bits around until I got some sort of framing that made sense. But that's > what makes the playback problem mystifying because this should be very > simple to generate and play back. I don't see what a filter would do to help > here necessarily unless I'm misunderstanding the alleged purpose. Look at the waveform. In addition to the outgoing waveform that you are recording accurately, look at the incoming waveform produced by the POS recorder. Could the Tomy be expecting (and relying) on certain degradations of the signal? Howzbout a pulse extender circuit or software? From cclist at sydex.com Wed Nov 18 15:08:22 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 13:08:22 -0800 Subject: Non-fake Apple 1 on ebay In-Reply-To: <20091118115449.P55218@shell.lmi.net> References: <4B02D4FD.10603@snarc.net>, <4B03399B.23086.3512326@cclist.sydex.com>, <20091118115449.P55218@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4B03F1C6.6459.E1B697@cclist.sydex.com> On 18 Nov 2009 at 11:58, Fred Cisin wrote: > do you actually intend to USE it? Sure--as a neutron source for the microgram of B-10... You never know--I recall a replica of the monolith from "2001: A Space Odyssey" being turned out sometime in the early 70's at Lawrence Livermore out of some exotic metal as a bootleg project. Your tax dollars at work... Back to the Apple I--is there inherently anything unique to the Apple I to prevent the market from being flooded with fakes? At even $5K, it might be a great cottage industry for someone who's become tired of forging postal money orders. Particularly if said forger was located in a country with lots and lots of old "pulls" that are usually being offered on the net whenever one looks for datasheets... My point is that it's not irreplaceable, like, say, a 1000 year old sequoia or Abraham Lincoln's fingernail clippings... It would seem to me that any intrinsic value would be hard to assess. --Chuck From leolists at seidkr.com Wed Nov 18 16:21:57 2009 From: leolists at seidkr.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Philip_Leonard_WV=D8T?=) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 16:21:57 -0600 Subject: Non-fake Apple 1 on ebay In-Reply-To: <4B0346C6.7060708@philpem.me.uk> References: <4B02D4FD.10603@snarc.net>, <4B02B510.17621.14B644D@cclist.sydex.com>, <4B032F31.3090709@gmail.com> <4B02D1D1.14778.1BBB49F@cclist.sydex.com> <4B0346C6.7060708@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4B047385.5080505@seidkr.com> Philip Pemberton wrote: > Chuck Guzis wrote: >> Silver is still used in photography and much is still used for >> radiography. > > Argh, Silver Halide film emulsions. I'm surprised I didn't get that > one... I spent most of last week mixing ID11 and Rapid Fixer. Good fun. > Until you forget to measure the temperature of the developer, > under-develop the film, and don't wash it enough in the stopbath to > remove the anti-halation dye. Then for bonus points I caught the film on > the worktop and ripped half the emulsion off. > > ID11 and Delta400 are not forgiving. Not in the least. At least HP5 is a > bit more idiot-proof. > And HC110 From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Wed Nov 18 16:25:05 2009 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 23:25:05 +0100 Subject: RGB-VGA Converter -- buy or build? In-Reply-To: <4B03C78C.9010309@gmail.com> References: <916572.12125.qm@web31102.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <200911182036.37231.thrashbarg@kaput.homeunix.org> <4B03C78C.9010309@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20091118232505.bddbe58c.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Wed, 18 Nov 2009 05:08:12 -0500 Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Might be easier to just use a monitor that takes SOG. There were > quite a few made. Seconded. E.g. every Sony Trinitron monitor (Sony branded and the various OEM versions like IBM, SGI or Sun) I came acros was able to sync to anything: Separate sync, composite sync, sync on green. The OP said somthing about 63.35 kHz / 60 Hz. That is not critical. Every "multisync" tube >= 17" should be able to sync to that. -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Nov 18 16:26:27 2009 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 14:26:27 -0800 Subject: Non-fake Apple 1 on ebay In-Reply-To: <4B045705.80106@atarimuseum.com> References: <4B02D4FD.10603@snarc.net>, <4B02D1D1.14778.1BBB49F@cclist.sydex.com>, <4B0346C6.7060708@philpem.me.uk> <4B02D920.14704.1D84500@cclist.sydex.com> <4B03C096.90607@philpem.me.uk> <20091118120959.C55218@shell.lmi.net> <4B045705.80106@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <4B047493.8070607@bitsavers.org> Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > Is there a website where Apple-1 owners register their board & serial# > so there is an active tracking of who owns a real board and their serial > # ? > As far as I know, only Sellam keeps an owners list, and it is obviously private. The fiascos with Shelby Cobra owners (and fakes..) got me thinking about this too. I hadn't noticed significance of the little number tags, for example, until this latest one came up and I started comparing PCB pictures. From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Wed Nov 18 17:02:34 2009 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 17:02:34 -0600 Subject: Non-fake Apple 1 on ebay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B047D0A.5070608@gmail.com> Tony Duell wrote: >> Evan Koblentz wrote: >>> If the seller feels this unit is worth more than the others, then he >>> should price it at a slight premium vs. the others, for example $30k vs. >>> $20-25k. However $50k is insane, especially in this economy. >> Maybe someone can explain this to me - what the heck is the big deal about >> Apple 1s? Obviously I'm in the crowd that just doesn't get it - but there's a >> big crowd out there that *does* get it - whatever "it" is. > > They're rare. I'm not sure that on it's own makes much difference, though; there are plenty of rare systems out that that probably survive in lower numbers than an A1... > They're the first product of a computer company that's > still going and that just about everybody has heard of. Now *that* may well carry some weight. Personally I like quirky stuff that very few folk have heard about, but I can understand how many want something where there's a link to the modern era. > Why will some people pay a ridiculous amount of money for a square inch > or so of paper with some ink on it? (known as a rare postage stamp, of > course). I think I'd rather have an Apple 1 :-) Given that choice, so would I - but then the postage stamp thing makes no sense to me, either ;) > And to get back on topic, why is a Sinclar ZX80 (which I don't own) worth > many times the value of an HP workstation (which is a much better > designed and built machine)? No idea. I like my ZX80 but I don't really understand its value (or want to part with it - and of all my machines, it's probably the easiest to ship around :-) Or, to look at it another way, if an Apple 1 is worth $50k then surely a ZX80 should be worth at least $10k, or a MK14 even more etc. etc. and they're not. I can understand the A1 being desirable - but $50k's worth of desirable just seems totally crazy for something that was only a very small part of computing history. cheers Jules From geoffr at zipcon.net Wed Nov 18 17:21:17 2009 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoffrey Reed) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 15:21:17 -0800 Subject: Non-fake Apple 1 on ebay In-Reply-To: <4B02FC9D.4060906@jwsss.com> Message-ID: Nope, he specifically stated in the auction that shipping was 3k On 11/17/09 11:42 AM, "jim s" wrote: > That may be Ebay's fault, unless the guy put in shipping costs. Their > shipping cost calculator is notorious for coming up with bad estimates. > > Maybe he put in armed escort by air for the cost... > Jim > > steven stengel wrote: >> ...and shipping is only $3,092.27 UPS Next Day Air! >> >> >> >> --- On Tue, 11/17/09, Evan Koblentz wrote: >> >> >>> From: Evan Koblentz >>> Subject: Non-fake Apple 1 on ebay >>> To: "On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" >>> Date: Tuesday, November 17, 2009, 8:53 AM >>> 320447681957 >>> >>> ... Speaking of crazy prices ... >>> >>> >> >> >> >> >> >> > From rlaag at pacbell.net Wed Nov 18 17:27:05 2009 From: rlaag at pacbell.net (Robert Laag) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 15:27:05 -0800 (PST) Subject: Data Cartridge Drive 3 M Looking for home Message-ID: <654501.36904.qm@web180401.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> I have a 3 M data cartridge drive and i can't use it so looking for someone needing one...? Probably from 1980 or so and I have some pictures I can send if interested... From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Nov 18 17:31:32 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 15:31:32 -0800 (PST) Subject: Non-fake Apple 1 on ebay In-Reply-To: <4B047D0A.5070608@gmail.com> References: <4B047D0A.5070608@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20091118151848.Q5931@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 18 Nov 2009, Jules Richardson wrote: > Or, to look at it another way, if an Apple 1 is worth $50k then surely a ZX80 > should be worth at least $10k, or a MK14 even more etc. etc. and they're not. > I can understand the A1 being desirable - but $50k's worth of desirable just > seems totally crazy for something that was only a very small part of computing > history. Thanks to Cringely, and similar, public perception attributes a disproportionate amount of computing history to the Apple 1. Way too many people think that computing history consists in its entirety of: Apple 1 Apple ][ IBM PC Macintosh along with Wordstar, WordPervert, Word (which of course was Cringely's personal history of computing experience) How many "documentaries" never even mention S100, TRS80, Atari, Commodore, Northstar, Proctology, KIM-1, Electric Pencil, Easy Writer, etc. and mention CP/M only as an introduction to Bill Gates? From cclist at sydex.com Wed Nov 18 17:55:16 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 15:55:16 -0800 Subject: Non-fake Apple 1 on ebay In-Reply-To: References: <4B02FC9D.4060906@jwsss.com>, Message-ID: <4B0418E4.220.17A829E@cclist.sydex.com> On 18 Nov 2009 at 15:21, Geoffrey Reed wrote: > Nope, he specifically stated in the auction that shipping was 3k Scroll down and you'll see that $3,000 is essentially a "handling" fee because he doesn't want to ship it. (IOW, "Cross my palm with silver and I'll ship it even though I don't want to...") --Chuck From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Wed Nov 18 18:39:34 2009 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 00:39:34 +0000 Subject: Hard-sector discs -- how many sectors? Message-ID: <4B0493C6.8060006@philpem.me.uk> Hi guys, I'm just putting the finishing touches on my disc reader hardware. At this point the disc stepping works (under the control of the FPGA -- you set the step rate and tell it how many steps to move and in which direction), and I can access the acquisition RAM on the PC (both read and write). So the next step before adding the acquisition module is to make the thing detect start and stop events. Frankly if you're reading formats that are index-synchronised (read: IBM PC), then it makes more sense to read index-to-index than it does to read from $HEAD_POSITION to some other random place on the disc. Most folks who have been following this project will know that it has three ways of starting or stopping an acquisition: - Index Synchronised. Waits for one or more index pulses. - MFM Synchronised. Waits for a given MFM sync word to pass under the head. - HSTMD. Hard Sector Track Mark Detector. Looks for an index pulse halfway between two other index pulses, then triggers on the index pulse after that. For example... I I I I I I ... | | X +--trigger here (X = the track index mark, + = the trigger point) Each of these trigger modes can be used in conjunction with a "delayed capture" mode -- basically, it waits for N events before triggering. That is to say, you can program it to trigger on index pulses, with a count of (say) 3, and it'll wait for 3 index pulses before triggering. This could be useful for any number of things -- reading hard-sectored discs, waiting for a few rotations before trying to read the disc, and probably a few other things I haven't thought of yet. I'll probably have the HSTMD detector wait for a track-mark, then count index pulses, which would allow single sectors on hard-sectored discs to be read with very little effort. This seems more useful to me than just counting track-marks. The thing is, I have a limited number of bits available in the registers (and an equally, if not more limited number of registers). So what I want to know is... how high does the event counter need to go? Specifically, how many sectors can you actually get on a hard-sectored disc? I know 10- and 16-sector discs were (are?) available, but were any larger sizes (e.g. 20 or 30 sectors) ever made? Thanks, -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Wed Nov 18 19:04:22 2009 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 20:04:22 -0500 Subject: Symbolic Name List in VMS Message-ID: <4B049996.9000105@compsys.to> It has been over 10 years since I used VMS, but I seem to remember that there was a feature available called Symbolic Name List which is a superset to (and MUCH superior to) the PATH name in DOS. I no longer have access to the Grey Wall, so I attempted to look in bitsavers. No luck at all. Can anyone provide a link to a PDF of the VMS manual which contains to documentation for SNL in VMS. Also, is this feature to same in both the VAX and Alpha at this point? If there is a difference? Which seems to be better? Is there a separate PDF for the documentation in each case? Jerome Fine From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Nov 18 19:21:15 2009 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 17:21:15 -0800 (PST) Subject: Symbolic Name List in VMS In-Reply-To: <4B049996.9000105@compsys.to> References: <4B049996.9000105@compsys.to> Message-ID: http://www.hp.com/go/vms/doc/ I'm not sure which manual it's in. You might be able to simply search the site. Zane On Wed, 18 Nov 2009, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > It has been over 10 years since I used VMS, but I seem to remember > that there was a feature available called Symbolic Name List which > is a superset to (and MUCH superior to) the PATH name in DOS. > > I no longer have access to the Grey Wall, so I attempted to look in > bitsavers. No luck at all. > > Can anyone provide a link to a PDF of the VMS manual which > contains to documentation for SNL in VMS. Also, is this feature > to same in both the VAX and Alpha at this point? If there is a > difference? Which seems to be better? Is there a separate PDF > for the documentation in each case? > > Jerome Fine > From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Nov 18 19:25:57 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 17:25:57 -0800 (PST) Subject: Hard-sector discs -- how many sectors? In-Reply-To: <4B0493C6.8060006@philpem.me.uk> References: <4B0493C6.8060006@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <20091118172257.C5931@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 19 Nov 2009, Philip Pemberton wrote: > Specifically, how many sectors can you actually get on a > hard-sectored disc? I know 10- and 16-sector discs were (are?) > available, but were any larger sizes (e.g. 20 or 30 sectors) ever made? Wang sometimes used 32 SPT hard-sectored I would NOT dare to claim that any list is exhaustive. From ragooman at comcast.net Wed Nov 18 19:30:58 2009 From: ragooman at comcast.net (Dan Roganti) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 20:30:58 -0500 Subject: Non-fake Apple 1 on ebay In-Reply-To: <4B03F1C6.6459.E1B697@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4B02D4FD.10603@snarc.net>, <4B03399B.23086.3512326@cclist.sydex.com>, <20091118115449.P55218@shell.lmi.net> <4B03F1C6.6459.E1B697@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4B049FD2.8050300@comcast.net> Chuck Guzis wrote: > Back to the Apple I--is there inherently anything unique to the Apple > I to prevent the market from being flooded with fakes? > yes, 35yr.old solder is not easy to fake :) =Dan From cclist at sydex.com Wed Nov 18 19:59:48 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 17:59:48 -0800 Subject: Non-fake Apple 1 on ebay In-Reply-To: <4B049FD2.8050300@comcast.net> References: <4B02D4FD.10603@snarc.net>, <4B03F1C6.6459.E1B697@cclist.sydex.com>, <4B049FD2.8050300@comcast.net> Message-ID: <4B043614.31212.1EC860F@cclist.sydex.com> On 18 Nov 2009 at 20:30, Dan Roganti wrote: > 35yr.old solder is not easy to fake I could make some by mixing in some 20 year old solder with my 100 year old solder... --Chuck From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Nov 18 20:11:30 2009 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 18:11:30 -0800 Subject: Non-fake Apple 1 on ebay In-Reply-To: <4B049FD2.8050300@comcast.net> References: <4B02D4FD.10603@snarc.net>, <4B03399B.23086.3512326@cclist.sydex.com>, <20091118115449.P55218@shell.lmi.net> <4B03F1C6.6459.E1B697@cclist.sydex.com> <4B049FD2.8050300@comcast.net> Message-ID: <4B04A952.3020101@bitsavers.org> Dan Roganti wrote: > Chuck Guzis wrote: >> Back to the Apple I--is there inherently anything unique to the Apple >> I to prevent the market from being flooded with fakes? > The solder mask. The dark green matte stuff they used to use hasn't been around for at least 25 years, though oxidation of 20+ year old solder is a pretty easy giveaway as well. There's also an upper limit on the number of ICs (esp the MOS parts) with the right date code range. I know a friend had a lot of trouble finding the MOS shift registers and clock drivers when that first batch of replica boards was produced. From glen.slick at gmail.com Wed Nov 18 20:17:34 2009 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 18:17:34 -0800 Subject: Symbolic Name List in VMS In-Reply-To: <4B049996.9000105@compsys.to> References: <4B049996.9000105@compsys.to> Message-ID: <1e1fc3e90911181817m190c5d9ax35dbe5f105f6964f@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Nov 18, 2009 at 5:04 PM, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > It has been over 10 years since I used VMS, but I seem to remember > that there was a feature available called Symbolic Name List which > is a superset to (and MUCH superior to) the PATH name in DOS. > Do you mean Logical Names? http://h71000.www7.hp.com/doc/731FINAL/DOCUMENTATION/PDF/OVMS_731_USERS.PDF Defining Logical Names for Devices and Files 11?1 A logical name can be used in place of another name to represent system objects such as files, directories, devices, or queues. For example, you might assign a logical name to your default disk and directory. Logical names serve two main functions: they increase readability and file independence. You can define commonly used files, directories, and devices with short, meaningful logical names. Such names are easier to remember and type than the full file specifications. You can define names that you use frequently in your login command procedure. A system manager can define names that people use frequently in the system startup command procedure. You can use logical names to keep your programs and command procedures independent of physical file specifications. For example, if a command procedure references the logical name ACCOUNTS, you can equate ACCOUNTS to any file on any disk. This chapter includes information about the following: From ragooman at comcast.net Wed Nov 18 20:21:33 2009 From: ragooman at comcast.net (Dan Roganti) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 21:21:33 -0500 Subject: Non-fake Apple 1 on ebay In-Reply-To: <4B043614.31212.1EC860F@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4B02D4FD.10603@snarc.net>, <4B03F1C6.6459.E1B697@cclist.sydex.com>, <4B049FD2.8050300@comcast.net> <4B043614.31212.1EC860F@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4B04ABAD.9010807@comcast.net> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 18 Nov 2009 at 20:30, Dan Roganti wrote: > > >> 35yr.old solder is not easy to fake >> > > I could make some by mixing in some 20 year old solder with my 100 > year old solder... > It's not only the substance which defines the age, but also the timespan in which solder is exposed to the elements and subsequently degrades. I can look at 40yr.old solder that somebody put on a fake circuit card that's only 1yr.old and know it's not 40yr.old solder on a 40yr.old circuit card. =Dan From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Nov 18 21:03:47 2009 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 22:03:47 -0500 Subject: RGB-VGA Converter -- buy or build? In-Reply-To: References: <916572.12125.qm@web31102.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4B03AF12.7040107@gmail.com> <4B03BF08.3060106@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B04B593.6060800@gmail.com> Christian Corti wrote: > On Wed, 18 Nov 2009, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >> He's going the other way around. Trying to hook a VGA monitor to an >> RS/6000. > > That's what I had in mind. But a "VGA" monitor is still an analog RGB > device with RGB signals (usually) on a DE15 connector, and doesn't need > a converter. But the signals go *to* the monitor. Not *from* it. The device he's using (IBM 7012-32H) doesn't provide RGBHV. It provides SOG. Peace... Sridhar From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Wed Nov 18 21:12:52 2009 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 22:12:52 -0500 Subject: Symbolic Name List in VMS In-Reply-To: <1e1fc3e90911181817m190c5d9ax35dbe5f105f6964f@mail.gmail.com> References: <4B049996.9000105@compsys.to> <1e1fc3e90911181817m190c5d9ax35dbe5f105f6964f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B04B7B4.8020006@compsys.to> >Glen Slick wrote: >>On Wed, Nov 18, 2009 at 5:04 PM, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > > >>It has been over 10 years since I used VMS, but I seem to remember >>that there was a feature available called Symbolic Name List which >>is a superset to (and MUCH superior to) the PATH name in DOS. >> >Do you mean Logical Names? > > Yes!!!!! VMS might have used SNL, but more likely I remembered it incorrectly. >http://h71000.www7.hp.com/doc/731FINAL/DOCUMENTATION/PDF/OVMS_731_USERS.PDF > >Defining Logical Names for Devices and Files 11?1 > >A logical name can be used in place of another name to represent >system objects such as files, directories, devices, or queues. For >example, you might assign a logical name to your default disk and >directory. Logical names serve two main functions: they increase >readability and file independence. > >You can define commonly used files, directories, and devices with >short, meaningful logical names. Such names are easier to remember and >type than the full file specifications. You can define names that you >use frequently in your login command procedure. A system manager can >define names that people use frequently in the system startup command >procedure. > >You can use logical names to keep your programs and command procedures >independent of physical file specifications. For example, if a command >procedure references the logical name ACCOUNTS, you can equate >ACCOUNTS to any file on any disk. This chapter includes information >about the following: > That is definitely the manual that I require! I read over a few of the pages, but it will take a while until I understand it all. The part that discusses a Search List is the portion that is exactly what I hoped to find. I guess that I should have used the terminology Logical Name Search List. THANK YOU VERY MUCH!! Jerome Fine From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Nov 18 21:31:30 2009 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 22:31:30 -0500 Subject: Non-fake Apple 1 on ebay In-Reply-To: <20091118151848.Q5931@shell.lmi.net> References: <4B047D0A.5070608@gmail.com> <20091118151848.Q5931@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4B04BC12.4080007@gmail.com> Fred Cisin wrote: >> Or, to look at it another way, if an Apple 1 is worth $50k then surely a ZX80 >> should be worth at least $10k, or a MK14 even more etc. etc. and they're not. >> I can understand the A1 being desirable - but $50k's worth of desirable just >> seems totally crazy for something that was only a very small part of computing >> history. > > Thanks to Cringely, and similar, public perception attributes a > disproportionate amount of computing history to the Apple 1. > > Way too many people think that computing history consists in its entirety > of: > Apple 1 > Apple ][ > IBM PC > Macintosh > along with Wordstar, WordPervert, Word > (which of course was Cringely's personal history of computing experience) > > How many "documentaries" never even mention S100, TRS80, Atari, Commodore, > Northstar, Proctology, KIM-1, Electric Pencil, Easy Writer, etc. > and mention CP/M only as an introduction to Bill Gates? You're doing it too. You're only listing microcomputer advances. 8-) Peace... Sridhar From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Nov 18 21:34:44 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 22:34:44 -0500 Subject: Non-fake Apple 1 on ebay In-Reply-To: <4B04A952.3020101@bitsavers.org> References: <4B02D4FD.10603@snarc.net> <4B03399B.23086.3512326@cclist.sydex.com> <20091118115449.P55218@shell.lmi.net> <4B03F1C6.6459.E1B697@cclist.sydex.com> <4B049FD2.8050300@comcast.net> <4B04A952.3020101@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: > The solder mask. The dark green matte stuff they used to use hasn't been > around > for at least 25 years, though oxidation of 20+ year old solder is a pretty > easy > giveaway as well. The mask is not too hard to fake visually - a properly tinted clear coat will do. A chemical test might be a giveaway, however. Old solder can also be faked - there are plenty of old radio guys that know how. > There's also an upper limit on the number of ICs (esp the MOS parts) with > the > right date code range. Harder to do, but the chips can be faked as well - at least the older inked ones, and not the more modern laser engraved types. The tube market is plagued with fakes, ever since the 1950s. Guys in their garage would get used tubes, wash the original inks off, and reink with a silkscreen. Certainly ICs could be faked the same way. -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Nov 18 21:47:13 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 22:47:13 -0500 Subject: SRC Message-ID: Hey Ethan, I got one of your stinkin' Q-Boards today. Serial Sixty-Nine! -- Will From cclist at sydex.com Wed Nov 18 22:34:59 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 20:34:59 -0800 Subject: Non-fake Apple 1 on ebay In-Reply-To: References: <4B02D4FD.10603@snarc.net>, <4B04A952.3020101@bitsavers.org>, Message-ID: <4B045A73.32653.27A99A4@cclist.sydex.com> On 18 Nov 2009 at 22:34, William Donzelli wrote: > Harder to do, but the chips can be faked as well - at least the older > inked ones, and not the more modern laser engraved types. > > The tube market is plagued with fakes, ever since the 1950s. Guys in > their garage would get used tubes, wash the original inks off, and > reink with a silkscreen. Certainly ICs could be faked the same way. The modern IC market is plagued with fakes also. Even for modern ICs, such as flash memories, fakes are manufactured to order. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Wed Nov 18 23:04:15 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 21:04:15 -0800 Subject: Hard-sector discs -- how many sectors? In-Reply-To: <20091118172257.C5931@shell.lmi.net> References: <4B0493C6.8060006@philpem.me.uk>, <20091118172257.C5931@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4B04614F.247.29563FA@cclist.sydex.com> On 18 Nov 2009 at 17:25, Fred Cisin wrote: > Wang sometimes used 32 SPT hard-sectored 32 sector 8" disks are common with other manufacturers as well. Other than the ancient oddball IBM 8-sector (?) format, 32 sector is pretty much the HS format in 8". The gotcha is that several 8" drives can be jumpered to divide the sector marks to 16 or 8 sectors. These are commonly the ones with separate INDEX and SECTOR outputs. I suspect external circuitry was also used to do the same with drives that didn't explicitly support hard sectoring. --Chuck From dkelvey at hotmail.com Thu Nov 19 00:02:45 2009 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 22:02:45 -0800 Subject: Non-fake Apple 1 on ebay In-Reply-To: <4B047D0A.5070608@gmail.com> References: ,<4B047D0A.5070608@gmail.com> Message-ID: ---------------------------------------- > Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 17:02:34 -0600 > From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com > To: > Subject: Re: Non-fake Apple 1 on ebay > > Tony Duell wrote: >>> Evan Koblentz wrote: >>>> If the seller feels this unit is worth more than the others, then he >>>> should price it at a slight premium vs. the others, for example $30k vs. >>>> $20-25k. However $50k is insane, especially in this economy. >>> Maybe someone can explain this to me - what the heck is the big deal about >>> Apple 1s? Obviously I'm in the crowd that just doesn't get it - but there's a >>> big crowd out there that *does* get it - whatever "it" is. >> >> They're rare. > > I'm not sure that on it's own makes much difference, though; there are plenty > of rare systems out that that probably survive in lower numbers than an A1... > Hi A fellow on the VCForum found a BIT 483. Now that is at least as rare as the A1. I have a Nicolet 1080 that I only know of 5 total. There may be more but they are not likely in another collectors hands without them contacting me or Sellam. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Windows 7: It works the way you want. Learn more. http://www.microsoft.com/Windows/windows-7/default.aspx?ocid=PID24727::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WWL_WIN_evergreen:112009v2 From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Nov 19 00:12:27 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 01:12:27 -0500 Subject: SRC In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 11/18/09, William Donzelli wrote: > Hey Ethan, I got one of your stinkin' Q-Boards today. Serial Sixty-Nine! Neat. That model came out after I'd been working there about a year, so unless it was produced during one or two of my absences from continuous employment there (Summer of 1985 or Summer of 1988), I would have tested it and bagged it myself. You have any need to bring up a HASP, 3780, or a PU type 2 (LU 2 and 3) SNA connection from a MicroVAX? That's what that model does. Did you get it as a loose board, or in a MicroVAX? If it was in a working machine, the software might be on there, probably in DUA0:[HASP], DUA0:[3780], or DUA0:[SNA] (or perhaps via a logical HASP:, 3780:, or SNA:, depending on the product - all Qboards can run any of the protocol engines - there's no hardware differentiation or limiting, except for modem speed). In any case, I have all of that stuff on the 8200 in the basement or on backup tape. If that sort of thing isn't your bag, let me know off-list if you want to sell it. -ethan From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Thu Nov 19 00:40:13 2009 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 22:40:13 -0800 Subject: BIT 483 / was Re: Non-fake Apple 1 on ebay References: , <4B047D0A.5070608@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B04E84D.C8C6A4F2@cs.ubc.ca> > A fellow on the VCForum found a BIT 483. Now that is > at least as rare as the A1. I have a Nicolet 1080 that I only know > of 5 total. There may be more but they are not likely in > another collectors hands without them contacting me or Sellam. I was going to ask about the BIT 483, but I see you and Chuck are already on top of it: http://www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum/showthread.php?p=120353 I love hearing about these little-known machines. Wish there was picture of the internals. Anybody know what sort of market these things found?, or more about the company origins/destiny? From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Nov 19 00:42:39 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 01:42:39 -0500 Subject: Software/documentation for the LSI-11 inside a Bridgeport Series II CNC milling machine? Message-ID: Hi, All, I was helping someone in town with some motor issues on their circa-1980 Bridgeport CNC mill for which they fortunately have many original docs. I was tremendously surprised to find that there's an LSI-11 in the heart of the CNC cabinet. The docs have schematics, register maps, etc., and even instructions for how to use the Bridgeport punched-tape-loadable diagnostics. Fortunately, this unit has the optional punched-tape reader. Unfortunately, it has no tapes. I've done some cursory looking around and little is leaping out at me (except frequent mentions of folks who have upgraded away from the original CNC package). I'm wondering if anyone on the list knows where to pick up images of the diagnostic software for this thing. Thanks for any tips or hints. -ethan From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Thu Nov 19 04:18:42 2009 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 11:18:42 +0100 (CET) Subject: Non-fake Apple 1 on ebay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 18 Nov 2009, Tony Duell wrote: > And to get back on topic, why is a Sinclar ZX80 (which I don't own) worth > many times the value of an HP workstation (which is a much better > designed and built machine)? The cost of a machine does not necessarily relate to its value. I'd say a ZX80 or an Apple-I don't have a value, but they cost much. On the other hand, we have the only two working LGP-30s on earth (only 450 were ever built), and we will probably restore a third one some time in future. They all didn't cost anything (there is just no price and market), but their value is very high (first generation tube computer with drum memory). And there's the fun factor, I can't imagine having fun with an Apple-I... playing the original Blackjack by Mel Kaye is something completely different. Christian From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Thu Nov 19 04:31:12 2009 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 11:31:12 +0100 (CET) Subject: RGB-VGA Converter -- buy or build? In-Reply-To: <4B04B593.6060800@gmail.com> References: <916572.12125.qm@web31102.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4B03AF12.7040107@gmail.com> <4B03BF08.3060106@gmail.com> <4B04B593.6060800@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 18 Nov 2009, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > But the signals go *to* the monitor. Not *from* it. The device he's using > (IBM 7012-32H) doesn't provide RGBHV. It provides SOG. Of course, what are you trying to tell me? Many monitors support SOG, so put the red channel from the 3W3 to the red channel on the DE15, and the same goes for the green and blue channels. That's it (along with ground, of course). BTW good monitors have BNC inputs, so just use a 3W3->BNC cable, et voil? (I did this with my Turbochannel DECstations and Alphas). Christian From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Nov 19 08:10:01 2009 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 08:10:01 -0600 Subject: Interesting items on eBay In-Reply-To: <531385.83627.qm@web82608.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <531385.83627.qm@web82608.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200911191432.nAJEWsVT060792@billY.EZWIND.NET> At 03:22 AM 11/17/2009, William Maddox wrote: >Item # 190348608036 > >The seller claims this is a vintage computer from 1968. >It's all been de-racked and is shown spread out on a table, >local pickup only in Hudson, MA. T&T Computers of McFarland, WI? Not far from here, but never heard of them. There are/were a number of medical electronics places around Madison, WI, of course. Nicolet collectors might not realize this T&T place was maybe ten-fifteen minutes away. >Item # 120492284400 > >These look like raw ceramic substrates similar to those used >for IBM's SLT logic, but they appear to be set up with pads >for larger die. No bids, didn't sell. - John From Watzman at neo.rr.com Thu Nov 19 08:34:28 2009 From: Watzman at neo.rr.com (Barry Watzman) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 09:34:28 -0500 Subject: Hard-sector discs -- how many sectors? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The Processor Technology SOL-20 with a semi-working Helios Disk System whose listing I am start this evening (Thurs, 11/19, at about 10pm EST) on E-Bay uses 8" 32-sector hard sector diskettes (and comes with two boxes of them). Wang systems also used these same diskettes, but, oddly, what we call the "back" of the diskettes was the "front" on Wang systems; they inserted them into the drive backwards by normal standards. The drive in the Helios is a Persci drive, just jumpered differently than for soft-sector use. There is (or was) also a very rare and unusual 32-sector 8" hard sector diskette where the sector holes were at the outer edge of the diskette circumference. Not sure who used this, but I know it existed. I believe that there was also a 16-sector 8" diskette, but I'm not sure. The number of sectors is related to sector size (Duh !!). In fact, the Helios, which had hardware variable sector sizes, defaults to using only every other sector hole and double-size sectors (in other words, I believe that it effectively has 16 sectors of 256 bytes per track, even though the diskette has 32 sector holes). By having fewer larger sectors, you effectively convert the otherwise lost inter-sector gaps into data space and increase the capacity of the media (this is true for soft sector as well). In the 5.25" size, I know that there was both 10-sector and 16-sector media. Heathkit/Zenith and NorthStar both used the 10-sector media. Subject: Re: Hard-sector discs -- how many sectors? On Thu, 19 Nov 2009, Philip Pemberton wrote: >> Specifically, how many sectors can you actually get on a >> hard-sectored disc? I know 10- and 16-sector discs were (are?) >> available, but were any larger sizes (e.g. 20 or 30 sectors) ever made? > Wang sometimes used 32 SPT hard-sectored > I would NOT dare to claim that any list is exhaustive. ------------------------------ From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Thu Nov 19 09:01:04 2009 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 09:01:04 -0600 Subject: Non-fake Apple 1 on ebay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B055DB0.5090108@gmail.com> Christian Corti wrote: > On Wed, 18 Nov 2009, Tony Duell wrote: >> And to get back on topic, why is a Sinclar ZX80 (which I don't own) worth >> many times the value of an HP workstation (which is a much better >> designed and built machine)? > > The cost of a machine does not necessarily relate to its value. > I'd say a ZX80 or an Apple-I don't have a value, but they cost much. > On the other hand, we have the only two working LGP-30s on earth (only > 450 were ever built) Yes, and on that note there are probably *many* systems out there that survive in numbers of five or less, and some of those doubtless did something different or unusual and were somehow innovative in their own way - yet their "cost" is essentially scrap value. That's probably a good thing for us collectors, but doesn't really explain why someone wants to put $50k down on an A1. I'm still left kind of thinking it's a small percentage for the system itself and a large percentage for the name of the company that built it, and I suppose I've never been one to 'get' why a brand is important, so I'm probably doomed to never make any sense of this :-) > I can't imagine having fun with an Apple-I... I think I'd enjoy messing around with it - but $50k's worth of messing around? Not a chance. I suppose it'd be interesting to know whether the buyer of this one ever uses it, or if it's treated just as an artifact to hold/gain value or hang on the wall (and let's face it, if it were used it's unlikely to turn into a big fireball when it does eventually fail - may as well use the darn thing and only hang it on the wall once it can no longer be fixed). cheers Jules From dkelvey at hotmail.com Thu Nov 19 09:04:00 2009 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 07:04:00 -0800 Subject: Hard-sector discs -- how many sectors? In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: ---------------------------------------- > From: Watzman at neo.rr.com > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Hard-sector discs -- how many sectors? > Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 09:34:28 -0500 > ---snip--- > > In the 5.25" size, I know that there was both 10-sector and 16-sector media. > Heathkit/Zenith and NorthStar both used the 10-sector media. > Hi Polymorphic used the 10 sectored 5.25 disk and the 16 sectored 8 inch disk. My Nicolet uses 32 sectored 8 inch disk but creates only 2 actual sectors of 16 holes each. I would suspect that you want to have a way to select any number of sectors index holes. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail: Trusted email with Microsoft's powerful SPAM protection. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/177141664/direct/01/ http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/177141664/direct/01/ From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Nov 19 09:26:51 2009 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 07:26:51 -0800 Subject: Hard-sector discs -- how many sectors? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B0563BB.3080806@bitsavers.org> Barry Watzman wrote: > There is (or was) also a very rare and unusual 32-sector 8" hard sector > diskette where the sector holes were at the outer edge of the diskette > circumference. Not sure who used this, but I know it existed. > Burroughs The first Memorex 8" floppy disk (model 651) used this media as well. From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Thu Nov 19 10:06:14 2009 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 16:06:14 +0000 Subject: Hard-sector discs -- how many sectors? In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: <4B056CF6.7060600@philpem.me.uk> dwight elvey wrote: > I would suspect that you want to have a way to select > any number of sectors index holes. It essentially already has this feature -- it's called HSTMD+Index. The controller waits for the track mark (index pulse between two others), then after it's seen said TM, it waits for the next index pulse. Like this: I I I I I I * ^ Where * is the point where the HSTMD detector triggers, and I is the index pulse. The start and stop detectors are almost identical -- the only difference is which register set the configuration is sourced from. Still, at least I have an upper bound now. 32 sectors it is! -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From cclist at sydex.com Thu Nov 19 10:24:55 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 08:24:55 -0800 Subject: Hard-sector discs -- how many sectors? In-Reply-To: <4B056CF6.7060600@philpem.me.uk> References: , , <4B056CF6.7060600@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4B0500D7.17341.DD8FB@cclist.sydex.com> On 19 Nov 2009 at 16:06, Philip Pemberton wrote: > It essentially already has this feature -- it's called HSTMD+Index. > The controller waits for the track mark (index pulse between two > others), then after it's seen said TM, it waits for the next index > pulse. Like this: > > I I I I I I > * ^ The 8" case is a bit different. Because of the near-universal use of 32-sector disks for hard-sectored data, you want a way to ignore every other, or the next consecutive 3, or 7, or 15 sector holes, for 16, 8, 4 and 2 sector formats respectively. I don't know if any 5.25" formats use this sector-hole skipping scheme. --Chuck From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Thu Nov 19 10:55:18 2009 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 16:55:18 +0000 Subject: Hard-sector discs -- how many sectors? In-Reply-To: <4B0500D7.17341.DD8FB@cclist.sydex.com> References: , , <4B056CF6.7060600@philpem.me.uk> <4B0500D7.17341.DD8FB@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4B057876.9000703@philpem.me.uk> Chuck Guzis wrote: > The 8" case is a bit different. Because of the near-universal use of > 32-sector disks for hard-sectored data, you want a way to ignore > every other, or the next consecutive 3, or 7, or 15 sector holes, for > 16, 8, 4 and 2 sector formats respectively. That's easy. The hard-sector support is basically a state machine that bolts onto the start/stop detector. There are four standard trigger modes (immediate, time-delayed, index-pulse and MFM Sync). When the track-mark detector is enabled, an additional state is added to the trigger FSM -- essentially it waits for a single track mark, then carries on waiting for whatever you told it to wait for. So if you program the trigger unit like this: * Start Event = HSTMD + Index Pulse * Start Count = 1 * Stop Event = Index Pulse * Stop Count = 2 What you'll get is this: t i j j I I I I I I I I ... S-----------P S=start, P=stop, -= acquisition zone. t = track mark detected, i = index after track mark, j = index pulses By changing the start and stop counts, you can read any of the 32 sectors individually, or read the entire disc in one shot (the index pulses are stored as part of the timing data, which allows the data to be separated into sectors after it's read). The write module works in a similar way -- it's an FSM that executes single-byte instructions. A byte with a 1 in the MSB waits clock cycles, then writes a transition. A byte with a 0 can execute one of a number of micro-instructions (00nnnnnn is "wait N, don't write", 01000000 is "stop now", and there are a few others for "wait for track mark" and "wait for next index pulse"). The real pain is going to be *testing* all this stuff. I might end up tying a 4046 PLL and a counter to a 3.5" drive to make a "fake hard-sector" drive, just to test the HSTMD... -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From oltmansg at bellsouth.net Thu Nov 19 10:55:39 2009 From: oltmansg at bellsouth.net (geoffrey oltmans) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 08:55:39 -0800 (PST) Subject: Non-fake Apple 1 on ebay In-Reply-To: <4B055DB0.5090108@gmail.com> References: <4B055DB0.5090108@gmail.com> Message-ID: <452724.49278.qm@web83911.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> I think if I had $50k just lying around, a fast car would do it for me... or it would go a long way toward a really nice sailboat. :) ________________________________ From: Jules Richardson To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Sent: Thu, November 19, 2009 9:01:04 AM Subject: Re: Non-fake Apple 1 on ebay Christian Corti wrote: > On Wed, 18 Nov 2009, Tony Duell wrote: >> And to get back on topic, why is a Sinclar ZX80 (which I don't own) worth >> many times the value of an HP workstation (which is a much better >> designed and built machine)? > > The cost of a machine does not necessarily relate to its value. > I'd say a ZX80 or an Apple-I don't have a value, but they cost much. > On the other hand, we have the only two working LGP-30s on earth (only 450 were ever built) Yes, and on that note there are probably *many* systems out there that survive in numbers of five or less, and some of those doubtless did something different or unusual and were somehow innovative in their own way - yet their "cost" is essentially scrap value. That's probably a good thing for us collectors, but doesn't really explain why someone wants to put $50k down on an A1. I'm still left kind of thinking it's a small percentage for the system itself and a large percentage for the name of the company that built it, and I suppose I've never been one to 'get' why a brand is important, so I'm probably doomed to never make any sense of this :-) > I can't imagine having fun with an Apple-I... I think I'd enjoy messing around with it - but $50k's worth of messing around? Not a chance. I suppose it'd be interesting to know whether the buyer of this one ever uses it, or if it's treated just as an artifact to hold/gain value or hang on the wall (and let's face it, if it were used it's unlikely to turn into a big fireball when it does eventually fail - may as well use the darn thing and only hang it on the wall once it can no longer be fixed). cheers Jules From cclist at sydex.com Thu Nov 19 11:27:04 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 09:27:04 -0800 Subject: Hard-sector discs -- how many sectors? In-Reply-To: <4B057876.9000703@philpem.me.uk> References: , <4B0500D7.17341.DD8FB@cclist.sydex.com>, <4B057876.9000703@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4B050F68.20632.46BC85@cclist.sydex.com> On 19 Nov 2009 at 16:55, Philip Pemberton wrote: > The real pain is going to be *testing* all this stuff. I might end up > tying a 4046 PLL and a counter to a 3.5" drive to make a "fake > hard-sector" drive, just to test the HSTMD... I've got code for a PIC12F629 around here for doing that. Let me know if you'd like it. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Thu Nov 19 11:39:47 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 09:39:47 -0800 Subject: Cromemco Z-2 and IMSAI 8080 at Purdue Message-ID: <4B051263.17309.5261F7@cclist.sydex.com> Someone over at VCF is worried that these will hit the dumpster. I think that's unlikely, but it might be worth looking into. http://vintage-computer.com/vcforum/showthread.php?p=120672 --Chuck From evan at snarc.net Thu Nov 19 11:52:24 2009 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 12:52:24 -0500 Subject: Cromemco Z-2 and IMSAI 8080 at Purdue In-Reply-To: <4B051263.17309.5261F7@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4B051263.17309.5261F7@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4B0585D8.9010009@snarc.net> > Someone over at VCF is worried that these will hit the dumpster. I think that's unlikely, but it might be worth looking into. > > http://vintage-computer.com/vcforum/showthread.php?p=120672 > > --Chuck > I forwarded the message to Pat Finnegan (just in case) .... Also, those of us associated with the Vintage Computer Festival do not like it when Erik's forum is called "VCF" .... thank you. :) From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Nov 19 12:13:50 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 13:13:50 -0500 Subject: Unknown IBM S/360s Message-ID: A old issue of Datamation (Nov 1977, I think - its out in the van right now) had a very short blurb about some upcoming S/360s I have never heard about - models 58 and 7. The 7 intrigues me, being described as a machine smaller than the model 20, which would make it fit somewhere in the minicomputer realm. I doubt these machines ever saw the light of day - likely never even left the back of the napkin at the diner in Poughkeepsie. -- Will From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Nov 19 12:19:04 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 13:19:04 -0500 Subject: Hard-sector discs -- how many sectors? In-Reply-To: <4B050F68.20632.46BC85@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4B0500D7.17341.DD8FB@cclist.sydex.com> <4B057876.9000703@philpem.me.uk> <4B050F68.20632.46BC85@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On 11/19/09, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 19 Nov 2009 at 16:55, Philip Pemberton wrote: > >> The real pain is going to be *testing* all this stuff. I might end up >> tying a 4046 PLL and a counter to a 3.5" drive to make a "fake >> hard-sector" drive, just to test the HSTMD... > > I've got code for a PIC12F629 around here for doing that. Let me > know if you'd like it. I'd like to see it for the possibility of a project that gets bounced around here from time to time - mounting a 12-sector (hard sectored) pack in an RK05, but having a microcontroller emit pulses to the drive electronics that simulate mounting a 16-sector pack - i.e. PDP-11 packs are common (I have dozens myself) and PDP-8 packs are much less common (I have one, and I got that from another list member). It would be *really* handy to be able to lie to the drive about what's installed rather than modify the packs one by one (of course, packs formatted that way would only work in a modified drive - but if you make the mod cheap and easy to build and install, everyone who wants one can build/have one). -ethan From brain at jbrain.com Thu Nov 19 12:28:19 2009 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 12:28:19 -0600 Subject: Cromemco Z-2 and IMSAI 8080 at Purdue In-Reply-To: <4B0585D8.9010009@snarc.net> References: <4B051263.17309.5261F7@cclist.sydex.com> <4B0585D8.9010009@snarc.net> Message-ID: <4B058E43.2070404@jbrain.com> Evan Koblentz wrote: > > > Also, those of us associated with the Vintage Computer Festival do not > like it when Erik's forum is called "VCF" .... thank you. :) Can someone clarify as to why? It seems a perfectly good acronym to me. Jim -- Jim Brain, Brain Innovations (X) brain at jbrain.com Dabbling in WWW, Embedded Systems, Old CBM computers, and Good Times! Home: http://www.jbrain.com From keithvz at verizon.net Thu Nov 19 12:36:03 2009 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith M) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 13:36:03 -0500 Subject: Cromemco Z-2 and IMSAI 8080 at Purdue In-Reply-To: <4B058E43.2070404@jbrain.com> References: <4B051263.17309.5261F7@cclist.sydex.com> <4B0585D8.9010009@snarc.net> <4B058E43.2070404@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <4B059013.9020903@verizon.net> Jim Brain wrote: > Evan Koblentz wrote: >> >> >> Also, those of us associated with the Vintage Computer Festival do not >> like it when Erik's forum is called "VCF" .... thank you. :) > Can someone clarify as to why? It seems a perfectly good acronym to me. > > Jim I'd be interested in why as well. Only guessing, if you google VCF, your current eighth hit is Vintage Computer Festival. However, your first two hits are Value City Furniture, and the third hit, well, hehehe, you'll have to google it yourself. :) Maybe that's why? Keith From arcbe2001 at yahoo.com Thu Nov 19 12:39:48 2009 From: arcbe2001 at yahoo.com (Russ Bartlett) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 10:39:48 -0800 (PST) Subject: Unknown IBM S/360s In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <511418.42322.qm@web110403.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> The model 20 was the smallest and used a reduced instruction set.? The programming language of choice was RPG (not RPG II).?? Those familiar with the Univac range 9200, 9300, 9400 (also used IBM 360 instruction set) will know that the Univac 9200 pretty well mirrored the IBM 360/20.? Never heard of a model 7 though. Russ --- On Thu, 11/19/09, William Donzelli wrote: From: William Donzelli Subject: Unknown IBM S/360s To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Date: Thursday, November 19, 2009, 1:13 PM A old issue of Datamation (Nov 1977, I think - its out in the van right now) had a very short blurb about some upcoming S/360s I have never heard about - models 58 and 7. The 7 intrigues me, being described as a machine smaller than the model 20, which would make it fit somewhere in the minicomputer realm. I doubt these machines ever saw the light of day - likely never even left the back of the napkin at the diner in Poughkeepsie. -- Will From evan at snarc.net Thu Nov 19 12:41:05 2009 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 13:41:05 -0500 Subject: Cromemco Z-2 and IMSAI 8080 at Purdue In-Reply-To: <4B058E43.2070404@jbrain.com> References: <4B051263.17309.5261F7@cclist.sydex.com> <4B0585D8.9010009@snarc.net> <4B058E43.2070404@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <4B059141.2050407@snarc.net> >> Also, those of us associated with the Vintage Computer Festival do >> not like it when Erik's forum is called "VCF" .... thank you. :) > Can someone clarify as to why? It seems a perfectly good acronym to me. Because "VCF" is already an established term in the hobby for "Vintage Computer Festival." That's not revisionist history; everyone knows we've been calling the events VCF 1.0, VCF 2.0, VCF Europe, VCF East, etc. since 1997 when it began. Sellam actually has a trademark on the term "Vintage Computer Festival" but he couldn't get VCF because it's also a file extension and it used in lots of other non-related places. But anyhow, for the hobby, we all know what VCF is -- Sellam's event. (It's not like Hans or Patrick or myself just decided to have our own events and call them VCF. Sellam owns the franchise and we openly admit it's a for-profit endeavor.) So, nothing against Erik, but when people call his forum the "VCF" they are creating confusion. From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Nov 19 12:52:45 2009 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 10:52:45 -0800 Subject: Unknown IBM S/360s In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B0593FD.9070504@bitsavers.org> William Donzelli wrote: > A old issue of Datamation (Nov 1977, I think - its out in the van > right now) had a very short blurb about some upcoming S/360s I have > never heard about - models 58 and 7. The 7 intrigues me, being > described as a machine smaller than the model 20, which would make it > fit somewhere in the minicomputer realm. > The only mentions of the model 58 are in the November 67 and March 68 issues. I don't think either machine ever happened. Nov 67 IBM now has three new members of the 360 family backstage--with one about to be pushed into the footlights. Biggest--by far--and most talked about is now known as the Model 85. It's said to have up to 6 million bytes of main storage and use some of the Mod 91 logic. Performance should be 5 to 10 times that of the 65 at about l~ times the price. Probable announcement time is early January, with deliveries scheduled to begin about 15 months later. , Next smaller may be called the Model 58. It could be about twice the speed of the 50 but sell down' with the present Mod 40. It's apparently aimed directly at the SDS Sigma 7 market. Last, and least, is the relatively tiny Mod 7-reportedly as fast as the 20 but much cheaper. Mar 68 IBM-watchers note the coming of generation 3.5 in the 360 line with the announcement of the 25 and 85. One user notes these two models are more alike than the 75 and 85. Both make more significant use of hierarchies of memory--and hence have a greater speed potential--than the rest of the line. And the writeable control store unique to these machines provides more emulation flexibility than the "hard~ wire" read-only memory on the rest. The next edition using more of these same features should be model 58. Meanwhile, some us~rs of behemoth systems for massive problem-solving are unhappy with the price of the 85; it's the standard squared increase (roughly four times the speed of the 65 for twice the price). One 6600 user says he would have rieeded at least 10 times the speed for the money to induce switch. "We really need 500 times the speed, but could never afford to pay 22 times the monthly rental." Some observers feel the lack of detailed specs for the 85, plus long lead-time (3rd quarter '69) indicates a replay of the IBM anti-6600 strategy, with the target this time the 1108~ perhaps. From caveguy at sbcglobal.net Thu Nov 19 13:14:17 2009 From: caveguy at sbcglobal.net (Bob Bradlee) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 14:14:17 -0500 Subject: WOT: VCF as a trademark In-Reply-To: <4B059141.2050407@snarc.net> Message-ID: <824906.21486.qm@smtp104.sbc.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> On Thu, 19 Nov 2009 13:41:05 -0500, Evan Koblentz wrote: >So, nothing against Erik, but when people call his forum the "VCF" they >are creating confusion. Likeleness of confusion only works for Registered Trademarks not personal claims. There are currently 2 active federal registered trademarks for "VCF" Registered by APOTHECUS PHARMACEUTICAL CORP. CORPORATION NEW YORK 20 Audrey Avenue Oyster Bay NEW YORK 117711532 Reg No. 2848974 "VCF" Since 2003 DISSOLVING VAGINAL DEODORIZING INSERTS. Reg No. 1350270 "VCF" Since 1984 VAGINAL CONTRACEPTIVE FILM There is also one more: Reg No. 2559415 "VCF PERSONAL LUBRICANT" Since 2002 MEDICAL LUBRICANT, NAMELY, VAGINAL LUBRICANT AND MOISTURIZER. If Sellam thinks he owns a franchise then he had better register it ASAP, or chance loosing it to an IP lawyer somewhere. A registration for something as stupid as digital yeast meter could cause him problems without a claim in the future. The other Bob From oltmansg at bellsouth.net Thu Nov 19 13:16:56 2009 From: oltmansg at bellsouth.net (geoffrey oltmans) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 11:16:56 -0800 (PST) Subject: Cromemco Z-2 and IMSAI 8080 at Purdue In-Reply-To: <4B059141.2050407@snarc.net> References: <4B051263.17309.5261F7@cclist.sydex.com> <4B0585D8.9010009@snarc.net> <4B058E43.2070404@jbrain.com> <4B059141.2050407@snarc.net> Message-ID: <304173.95372.qm@web83905.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> wow... ________________________________ From: Evan Koblentz To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Sent: Thu, November 19, 2009 12:41:05 PM Subject: Re: Cromemco Z-2 and IMSAI 8080 at Purdue >> Also, those of us associated with the Vintage Computer Festival do not like it when Erik's forum is called "VCF" .... thank you. :) > Can someone clarify as to why? It seems a perfectly good acronym to me. Because "VCF" is already an established term in the hobby for "Vintage Computer Festival." That's not revisionist history; everyone knows we've been calling the events VCF 1.0, VCF 2.0, VCF Europe, VCF East, etc. since 1997 when it began. Sellam actually has a trademark on the term "Vintage Computer Festival" but he couldn't get VCF because it's also a file extension and it used in lots of other non-related places. But anyhow, for the hobby, we all know what VCF is -- Sellam's event. (It's not like Hans or Patrick or myself just decided to have our own events and call them VCF. Sellam owns the franchise and we openly admit it's a for-profit endeavor.) So, nothing against Erik, but when people call his forum the "VCF" they are creating confusion. From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Nov 19 13:19:01 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 14:19:01 -0500 Subject: WOT: VCF as a trademark In-Reply-To: <824906.21486.qm@smtp104.sbc.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> References: <824906.21486.qm@smtp104.sbc.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Nov 19, 2009, at 2:14 PM, Bob Bradlee wrote: > Reg No. 2848974 "VCF" Since 2003 DISSOLVING VAGINAL DEODORIZING > INSERTS. I think I saw a band by that name in Baltimore. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Nov 19 13:19:11 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 14:19:11 -0500 Subject: Unknown IBM S/360s In-Reply-To: <4B0593FD.9070504@bitsavers.org> References: <4B0593FD.9070504@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: > The only mentions of the model 58 are in the > November 67 and March 68 issues. I don't think > either machine ever happened. Oops, make that November 1967, and I concur. Still, it makes one wonder... -- Will From cclist at sydex.com Thu Nov 19 13:20:44 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 11:20:44 -0800 Subject: Unknown IBM S/360s In-Reply-To: <511418.42322.qm@web110403.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: , <511418.42322.qm@web110403.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4B052A0C.774.AECE8C@cclist.sydex.com> On 19 Nov 2009 at 10:39, Russ Bartlett wrote: > The model 20 was the smallest and used a reduced instruction set.? The > programming language of choice was RPG (not RPG II).?? Those familiar > with the Univac range 9200, 9300, 9400 (also used IBM 360 instruction > set) will know that the Univac 9200 pretty well mirrored the IBM > 360/20.? Never heard of a model 7 though. For all intents and purposes, the Model 20 was a completely different machine. Not binary-compatible with its bigger siblings; used halfword registers. A 360/30 programmer might start his program with "BALR 15,0" to establish an addressing base through register 15, but the 360/20 programmer would write "BASR 15,0". The bulk of instructions on the Model 20 were memory-to-memory, including packed decimal arithmetic. It's noteworthy that there was a packed decimal multiply instruction, but no binary register-based multiply, for example. There was also a model 25, which was much closer to the standard line (model 30 and up), but it came along rather late in the series. A lot of model 20's went to installations to replace unit-record equipment, rather than another computer. Peripherals for the 20 were less than wonderful. In particular, I remember the "Mother Fletcher's Card Mulcher" (cleaned up for general consumption)... --Chuck From doc at vaxen.net Thu Nov 19 13:28:48 2009 From: doc at vaxen.net (Doc Shipley) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 13:28:48 -0600 Subject: Cromemco Z-2 and IMSAI 8080 at Purdue In-Reply-To: <4B059141.2050407@snarc.net> References: <4B051263.17309.5261F7@cclist.sydex.com> <4B0585D8.9010009@snarc.net> <4B058E43.2070404@jbrain.com> <4B059141.2050407@snarc.net> Message-ID: <4B059C70.8040609@vaxen.net> Evan Koblentz wrote: > >>> Also, those of us associated with the Vintage Computer Festival do >>> not like it when Erik's forum is called "VCF" .... thank you. :) >> Can someone clarify as to why? It seems a perfectly good acronym to me. > Because "VCF" is already an established term in the hobby for "Vintage > Computer Festival." That's not revisionist history; everyone knows > we've been calling the events VCF 1.0, VCF 2.0, VCF Europe, VCF East, > etc. since 1997 when it began. Sellam actually has a trademark on the > term "Vintage Computer Festival" but he couldn't get VCF because it's > also a file extension and it used in lots of other non-related places. > But anyhow, for the hobby, we all know what VCF is -- Sellam's event. > (It's not like Hans or Patrick or myself just decided to have our own > events and call them VCF. Sellam owns the franchise and we openly admit > it's a for-profit endeavor.) Translation: Sellam's "Vintage Computer Festival" and Erik's "The Vintage Computer" are two separate organizations run by 2 different people and groups. > So, nothing against Erik, but when people call his forum the "VCF" they > are creating confusion. From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Thu Nov 19 13:35:30 2009 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 14:35:30 -0500 (EST) Subject: Unknown IBM S/360s In-Reply-To: <4B052A0C.774.AECE8C@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <511418.42322.qm@web110403.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4B052A0C.774.AECE8C@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 19 Nov 2009, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Peripherals for the 20 were less than wonderful. In particular, I > remember the "Mother Fletcher's Card Mulcher" (cleaned up for general > consumption)... I've heard the same phrase applied to the 5424 on the System/3 - was that also used on the 20? Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Nov 19 13:43:35 2009 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 12:43:35 -0700 Subject: Non-fake Apple 1 on ebay - diy In-Reply-To: <452724.49278.qm@web83911.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <4B055DB0.5090108@gmail.com> <452724.49278.qm@web83911.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4B059FE7.9050403@jetnet.ab.ca> geoffrey oltmans wrote: > I think if I had $50k just lying around, a fast car would do it for > me... or it would go a long way toward a really nice sailboat. :) Cement is cheap ... build your boat from that ... not fast but you can crush the other boats as you ram through them. :) From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Nov 19 13:50:00 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 14:50:00 -0500 Subject: Non-fake Apple 1 on ebay - diy In-Reply-To: <4B059FE7.9050403@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4B055DB0.5090108@gmail.com> <452724.49278.qm@web83911.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <4B059FE7.9050403@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <01260A08-7A17-4F65-9579-D2F76E90821E@neurotica.com> On Nov 19, 2009, at 2:43 PM, Ben wrote: >> I think if I had $50k just lying around, a fast car would do it for >> me... or it would go a long way toward a really nice sailboat. :) > > Cement is cheap ... build your boat from that ... not fast but you > can crush the other boats as you ram through them. :) Cement is cheap up there? It sure isn't down here. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From evan at snarc.net Thu Nov 19 13:49:29 2009 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 14:49:29 -0500 Subject: Cromemco Z-2 and IMSAI 8080 at Purdue In-Reply-To: <4B059C70.8040609@vaxen.net> References: <4B051263.17309.5261F7@cclist.sydex.com> <4B0585D8.9010009@snarc.net> <4B058E43.2070404@jbrain.com> <4B059141.2050407@snarc.net> <4B059C70.8040609@vaxen.net> Message-ID: <4B05A149.5030702@snarc.net> > Sellam's "Vintage Computer Festival" and Erik's "The Vintage Computer > Forum" are two separate organizations run by 2 different people and > groups. Right. I'm not trying to cause any big fuss and I'm certainly not a lawyer. But, even I do a double-take when I read "VCF" on a hobby site and it's meant as something other than the Festival. From oltmansg at bellsouth.net Thu Nov 19 13:52:22 2009 From: oltmansg at bellsouth.net (geoffrey oltmans) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 11:52:22 -0800 (PST) Subject: Non-fake Apple 1 on ebay - diy In-Reply-To: <4B059FE7.9050403@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4B055DB0.5090108@gmail.com> <452724.49278.qm@web83911.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <4B059FE7.9050403@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <355686.581.qm@web83902.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> And with the additional moneys, I could buy.... ;) ________________________________ From: Ben To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Sent: Thu, November 19, 2009 1:43:35 PM Subject: Re: Non-fake Apple 1 on ebay - diy geoffrey oltmans wrote: > I think if I had $50k just lying around, a fast car would do it for > me... or it would go a long way toward a really nice sailboat. :) Cement is cheap ... build your boat from that ... not fast but you can crush the other boats as you ram through them. :) From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Nov 19 13:52:55 2009 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 14:52:55 -0500 Subject: Non-fake Apple 1 on ebay - diy In-Reply-To: <01260A08-7A17-4F65-9579-D2F76E90821E@neurotica.com> References: <4B055DB0.5090108@gmail.com> <452724.49278.qm@web83911.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <4B059FE7.9050403@jetnet.ab.ca> <01260A08-7A17-4F65-9579-D2F76E90821E@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4B05A217.4030805@gmail.com> Dave McGuire wrote: >>> I think if I had $50k just lying around, a fast car would do it for >>> me... or it would go a long way toward a really nice sailboat. :) >> >> Cement is cheap ... build your boat from that ... not fast but you can >> crush the other boats as you ram through them. :) > > Cement is cheap up there? It sure isn't down here. It's a lot cheaper here than it is by you. It's hard to run a rock quarry where you are. The water table is very high. Here we have rolling hills. Makes it easier. Peace... Sridhar From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Nov 19 13:57:07 2009 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 12:57:07 -0700 Subject: Non-fake Apple 1 on ebay - diy In-Reply-To: <01260A08-7A17-4F65-9579-D2F76E90821E@neurotica.com> References: <4B055DB0.5090108@gmail.com> <452724.49278.qm@web83911.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <4B059FE7.9050403@jetnet.ab.ca> <01260A08-7A17-4F65-9579-D2F76E90821E@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4B05A313.2090102@jetnet.ab.ca> Dave McGuire wrote: > On Nov 19, 2009, at 2:43 PM, Ben wrote: >>> I think if I had $50k just lying around, a fast car would do it for >>> me... or it would go a long way toward a really nice sailboat. :) >> >> Cement is cheap ... build your boat from that ... not fast but you can >> crush the other boats as you ram through them. :) > > > Cement is cheap up there? It sure isn't down here. Well relative to other boat building materials. Iron,wood or fiberglass come to mind. This is a DIY project, I don't see many cement trucks needed for a small boat. The real problem is how big you can make your mold. I suspect there is only hand full of people who have made a boat this way at home. > -Dave > From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Nov 19 14:02:57 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 15:02:57 -0500 Subject: Cromemco Z-2 and IMSAI 8080 at Purdue In-Reply-To: <4B05A149.5030702@snarc.net> References: <4B051263.17309.5261F7@cclist.sydex.com> <4B0585D8.9010009@snarc.net> <4B058E43.2070404@jbrain.com> <4B059141.2050407@snarc.net> <4B059C70.8040609@vaxen.net> <4B05A149.5030702@snarc.net> Message-ID: > I'm not trying to cause any big fuss and I'm certainly not a lawyer. > > But, even I do a double-take when I read "VCF" on a hobby site and it's > meant as something other than the Festival. You got a D in marketing, correct? -- Will From caveguy at sbcglobal.net Thu Nov 19 14:35:03 2009 From: caveguy at sbcglobal.net (Bob Bradlee) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 15:35:03 -0500 Subject: VCF registration or lack of it. In-Reply-To: <4B05A149.5030702@snarc.net> Message-ID: <455856.86699.qm@smtp101.sbc.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> On Thu, 19 Nov 2009 14:49:29 -0500, Evan Koblentz wrote: >I'm not trying to cause any big fuss and I'm certainly not a lawyer. >But, even I do a double-take when I read "VCF" on a hobby site and it's >meant as something other than the Festival. Your level of confusion is of no concern to an examiner. There has never been ANY application for the term Vintage Computer ANYTHING filed with the USPTO! It is a moot point. Goto: http://tess2.uspto.gov/ First choice: New User Form Search (Basic) Search Term: Vintage Computer Click on the New User Form BACK button Try Search Term: Computer Festival You might find it interesting to find top of the list: TCF - TRENTON COMPUTER FESTIVAL was abandoned close to 10 years ago! and you will only find 2 live ones. Including: COMPUTERFEST First use:1985 Dayton Microcomputer Association, Inc. CORPORATION OHIO 119 VALLEY STREET Dayton OHIO 45404 Try the Search Term: Festival and you wll find 8800+ I did not see any connected with Vintage Computers If it is not listed in TESS it is a local tag only and does not have National or Global Scope! If you wish to know more about the recovery of domain names by registered trademark owners google "UDRP conference" This VCF trademark question comes up every few years, Its BS! I would expect an application for "Vintage Computer Festival" would most likely be rejected as being "Descriptive" but I am sure Sellam can show enough history of distintive use to get done. Its not rocket science to fill out an application, but then again it is not exactly free. I the case of the TRENTON COMPUTER FESTIVAL it was not worth the ~$400 to renew it so they abandoned the registration. The other Bob From cclist at sydex.com Thu Nov 19 15:29:04 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 13:29:04 -0800 Subject: Unknown IBM S/360s In-Reply-To: References: , <4B052A0C.774.AECE8C@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4B054820.28443.1244D97@cclist.sydex.com> On 19 Nov 2009 at 14:35, Mike Loewen wrote: > I've heard the same phrase applied to the 5424 on the System/3 - > was that also used on the 20? The unit on the model 20 was 2560; how much that shares with the 5424 I have no idea. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Thu Nov 19 15:30:23 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 13:30:23 -0800 Subject: Cromemco Z-2 and IMSAI 8080 at Purdue In-Reply-To: <4B05A149.5030702@snarc.net> References: <4B051263.17309.5261F7@cclist.sydex.com>, <4B059C70.8040609@vaxen.net>, <4B05A149.5030702@snarc.net> Message-ID: <4B05486F.24582.125825D@cclist.sydex.com> Okay, someone give me an acronym for Erik's forum that everyone will recognize. Would saying "Erik's VCF" soothe any raw nerves? --Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Nov 19 15:32:38 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 21:32:38 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Hard-sector discs -- how many sectors? In-Reply-To: <4B0493C6.8060006@philpem.me.uk> from "Philip Pemberton" at Nov 19, 9 00:39:34 am Message-ID: > Specifically, how many sectors can you actually get on a > hard-sectored disc? I know 10- and 16-sector discs were (are?) > available, but were any larger sizes (e.g. 20 or 30 sectors) ever made? I hope you're handling 8" disks. I have some 32 sector hard-sectoed 8" floppies (blank, so I have no idea what machine they were used in) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Nov 19 15:35:15 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 21:35:15 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Non-fake Apple 1 on ebay In-Reply-To: <4B049FD2.8050300@comcast.net> from "Dan Roganti" at Nov 18, 9 08:30:58 pm Message-ID: > > Chuck Guzis wrote: > > Back to the Apple I--is there inherently anything unique to the Apple > > I to prevent the market from being flooded with fakes? > > > > yes, > 35yr.old solder is not easy to fake > :) But how many people would know what to look for? Wasn't the Apple 1 originally a kit? In which case I am suprised some joker hasn't tried a L@@K ULTRA RARE Apple 1 unassembled kit. That would get round the solder problem. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Nov 19 15:25:29 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 21:25:29 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Non-fake Apple 1 on ebay In-Reply-To: <4B047D0A.5070608@gmail.com> from "Jules Richardson" at Nov 18, 9 05:02:34 pm Message-ID: > I'm not sure that on it's own makes much difference, though; there are plenty > of rare systems out that that probably survive in lower numbers than an A1... There certainly are. I suspect I have one or two such machines myself > > > They're the first product of a computer company that's > > still going and that just about everybody has heard of. > > Now *that* may well carry some weight. Personally I like quirky stuff that > very few folk have heard about, but I can understand how many want something > where there's a link to the modern era. Personally, I don't care whether the company is one that 'people have heard of' or not. I am interested in good designs. I don't consider the Apple 1 to be in that cantegory.... > > > Why will some people pay a ridiculous amount of money for a square inch > > or so of paper with some ink on it? (known as a rare postage stamp, of > > course). I think I'd rather have an Apple 1 :-) And I'd certainly prefer an Apple 1 to a couple of microwaved Macs that claim to be 'art'. At least the Apple 1 would give me something to stick a logic analyser on... > > Given that choice, so would I - but then the postage stamp thing makes no > sense to me, either ;) I'll bet there are many, many, people who don't get why we (I assume we're all 'guilty' of this) will actively look for some ancient computer that nobody has heard of, then drive miles to collect it, spend $diety knows how long figuring out what's wrong with it, spend even more time and money finding ICs that haven't been made for ages, and spend yet mroe time repairing it. And in the end a modern PC from PC World or wherever would be cheaper and faster (although to be fair, probably less reliabled ...) But then I don;'t get why other people enjoy their hobbies in a lot of cases. And I don';t ahve to. THey're welcome to do what they enjoy, provided they don't try to stop me repairing old HP desktops or whatver. > > > And to get back on topic, why is a Sinclar ZX80 (which I don't own) worth > > many times the value of an HP workstation (which is a much better > > designed and built machine)? > > No idea. I like my ZX80 but I don't really understand its value (or want to Each to his own. From what I've heard it is not the sort of design (either electroncially or mechancially) that I would like. > part with it - and of all my machines, it's probably the easiest to ship > around :-) By all acounts the plastic case is pretty fragile (I've handled one once...). I think the sort of machines I work on (old minis, HPs, etc) would stand up to shipping a lot better, although they are heavier, of course. Byt my HP handheld computers are solid and easy to carry... > Or, to look at it another way, if an Apple 1 is worth $50k then surely a ZX80 > should be worth at least $10k, or a MK14 even more etc. etc. and they're not. I acutally have an MK14, I have no idea what it's worth. I must get round to repairing it (the unheatsinked -- thanks Sinclair! -- 7805 went dead short and wiped out many of the chips. Fortuanely the monitor ROMs survived, and I do have a replacement SC/MP somehwere). It was my first computer, which means it has some sentimental value to me, but that's about the only reason I keep it. The hardware design is not pleasant (It's pretty obvious from the circuit diagram that the display latches should be 74175s, but some idiot oredered 74157s by misatake and they were kludged in (a mux with one input tied to the output will make a transparent latch -- most of the time) > I can understand the A1 being desirable - but $50k's worth of desirable just > seems totally crazy for something that was only a very small part of computing > history. I agree with you. If I had $50k spare, I would not buy an Apple 1. But clearly some people want one, and who am I to judge them? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Nov 19 15:30:04 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 21:30:04 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Non-fake Apple 1 on ebay In-Reply-To: <20091118151848.Q5931@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Nov 18, 9 03:31:32 pm Message-ID: > Way too many people think that computing history consists in its entirety > of: > Apple 1 > Apple ][ > IBM PC > Macintosh > along with Wordstar, WordPervert, Word > (which of course was Cringely's personal history of computing experience) > > How many "documentaries" never even mention S100, TRS80, Atari, Commodore, > Northstar, Proctology, KIM-1, Electric Pencil, Easy Writer, etc. > and mention CP/M only as an introduction to Bill Gates? Isn't that a very biased list too? What about all the larger machines? What about Xerox/3 Rivers? What about DEC and HP (I still think the 9830 doesn't get the attention it deserves). What about larger IBM machines? What about non-US micros (Acorn, for example). And so on (No, I know I am missing stuff out too). -tony From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Thu Nov 19 15:59:54 2009 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 16:59:54 -0500 (EST) Subject: Unknown IBM S/360s In-Reply-To: <4B054820.28443.1244D97@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4B052A0C.774.AECE8C@cclist.sydex.com>, <4B054820.28443.1244D97@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 19 Nov 2009, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 19 Nov 2009 at 14:35, Mike Loewen wrote: > >> I've heard the same phrase applied to the 5424 on the System/3 - >> was that also used on the 20? > > The unit on the model 20 was 2560; how much that shares with the > 5424 I have no idea. Different MFCM, it would seem. The 80-column 2560: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/af/DM_IBM_S360.jpg ... and the 96-column 5424: http://amit-tx.org/Images/big/MFCM%20and%202%20disk%20drives.jpg Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From doc at vaxen.net Thu Nov 19 16:10:18 2009 From: doc at vaxen.net (Doc Shipley) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 16:10:18 -0600 Subject: Cromemco Z-2 and IMSAI 8080 at Purdue In-Reply-To: <4B05486F.24582.125825D@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4B051263.17309.5261F7@cclist.sydex.com>, <4B059C70.8040609@vaxen.net>, <4B05A149.5030702@snarc.net> <4B05486F.24582.125825D@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4B05C24A.806@vaxen.net> Chuck Guzis wrote: > Okay, someone give me an acronym for Erik's forum that everyone will > recognize. Would saying "Erik's VCF" soothe any raw nerves? I just call it the Vintage Marketplace. Doc From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Nov 19 16:17:21 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 17:17:21 -0500 Subject: Cromemco Z-2 and IMSAI 8080 at Purdue In-Reply-To: <4B05486F.24582.125825D@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4B051263.17309.5261F7@cclist.sydex.com> <4B059C70.8040609@vaxen.net> <4B05A149.5030702@snarc.net> <4B05486F.24582.125825D@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Nov 19, 2009 at 4:30 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Okay, someone give me an acronym for Erik's forum that everyone will > recognize. ?Would saying "Erik's VCF" soothe any raw nerves? I don't have any raw nerves about it, but when I see VCF, what pops into my brain is the Vintage Computer Festival. Every time. As far as I'm concerned, you are free to call the Vintage Computer Forum the VCF, but don't expect me to get what you mean the first time around. -ethan From cclist at sydex.com Thu Nov 19 16:30:18 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 14:30:18 -0800 Subject: Unknown IBM S/360s In-Reply-To: References: , <4B054820.28443.1244D97@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4B05567A.30549.15C5D65@cclist.sydex.com> On 19 Nov 2009 at 16:59, Mike Loewen wrote: > Different MFCM, it would seem. The 80-column 2560: > > http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/af/DM_IBM_S360.jpg > > ... and the 96-column 5424: > > http://amit-tx.org/Images/big/MFCM%20and%202%20disk%20drives.jpg Yeah, I see. I love the plexiglas front panel on the model 20 CPU. I suspect if the same treatment had been given the 2560, the bits and pieces of chewed-up punch cards would have obstructed the view of the inner workings anyway... I don't know much about S/3 hardware. Was there 80-column card- handling equipment for it, and if so, what was it? --Chuck From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Nov 19 16:39:42 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 17:39:42 -0500 Subject: Unknown IBM S/360s In-Reply-To: <4B05567A.30549.15C5D65@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4B054820.28443.1244D97@cclist.sydex.com> <4B05567A.30549.15C5D65@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > I don't know much about S/3 hardware. ?Was there 80-column card- > handling equipment for it, and if so, what was it? 2501. Model B maybe? -- Will From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Nov 19 16:51:31 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 14:51:31 -0800 (PST) Subject: Non-fake Apple 1 on ebay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20091119144059.U51294@shell.lmi.net> > > Way too many people think that computing history consists in its entirety > > of: > > Apple 1 > > Apple ][ > > IBM PC > > Macintosh > > along with Wordstar, WordPervert, Word > > (which of course was Cringely's personal history of computing experience) > > How many "documentaries" never even mention S100, TRS80, Atari, Commodore, > > Northstar, Proctology, KIM-1, Electric Pencil, Easy Writer, etc. > > and mention CP/M only as an introduction to Bill Gates? On Thu, 19 Nov 2009, Tony Duell wrote: > Isn't that a very biased list too? What about all the larger machines? > What about Xerox/3 Rivers? What about DEC and HP (I still think the 9830 > doesn't get the attention it deserves). What about larger IBM machines? > What about non-US micros (Acorn, for example). And so on (No, I know I am > missing stuff out too). I was specifically listing machines that were VERY similar to the ones that get covered, but never get mentioned by the "historians" of mass media, rather than supplying a corrected list. To be an APPROPRIATE sampling of computing history, DEC minis, IBM mainframes, need to be included, as well as acknowledging the machines from all of the seven dwarves, the era of EAM (my first computing work was alphabetizing using an 084 counting sorter), the fundamental relationships between personal computers, timesharing, "client/server", etc. I am NOT going to attempt to create an exhaustive, nor thorough, list so assume that lack of inclusion of your favorites is not intended to diminish their importance. Each of us KNOWS what the most important and significant machine was. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cclist at sydex.com Thu Nov 19 16:54:16 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 14:54:16 -0800 Subject: Unknown IBM S/360s In-Reply-To: References: , <4B05567A.30549.15C5D65@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4B055C18.10646.1724CC0@cclist.sydex.com> On 19 Nov 2009 at 17:39, William Donzelli wrote: > > I don't know much about S/3 hardware. ?Was there 80-column card- > > handling equipment for it, and if so, what was it? > > 2501. Model B maybe? Ah, same as on the S/360. Just read, no punch or sort? 2540 or 2520 maybe? --Chuck From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Thu Nov 19 17:01:02 2009 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 17:01:02 -0600 Subject: Non-fake Apple 1 on ebay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B05CE2E.9080205@gmail.com> Tony Duell wrote: >> I'm not sure that on it's own makes much difference, though; there are plenty >> of rare systems out that that probably survive in lower numbers than an A1... > > There certainly are. I suspect I have one or two such machines myself I suspect a lot of us do... >>> They're the first product of a computer company that's >>> still going and that just about everybody has heard of. >> Now *that* may well carry some weight. Personally I like quirky stuff that >> very few folk have heard about, but I can understand how many want something >> where there's a link to the modern era. > > Personally, I don't care whether the company is one that 'people have > heard of' or not. I am interested in good designs. I don't consider the > Apple 1 to be in that cantegory.... I think it has its place, personally I'm not disputing that - I'm just trying to get my head around where this business of it being worth quite so much hails from. >>> And to get back on topic, why is a Sinclar ZX80 (which I don't own) worth >>> many times the value of an HP workstation (which is a much better >>> designed and built machine)? >> No idea. I like my ZX80 but I don't really understand its value (or want to > > Each to his own. From what I've heard it is not the sort of design > (either electroncially or mechancially) that I would like. I like it because it's such utter garbage. That appeals, somehow. It it were as bad as it is *and* were common, I wouldn't like it so much. >> part with it - and of all my machines, it's probably the easiest to ship >> around :-) > > By all acounts the plastic case is pretty fragile (I've handled one > once...). I think the sort of machines I work on (old minis, HPs, etc) > would stand up to shipping a lot better, although they are heavier, of > course. Byt my HP handheld computers are solid and easy to carry... Yes, I was thinking in terms of money - it's not big and not heavy. It'd certainly need some serious packaging, though. >> Or, to look at it another way, if an Apple 1 is worth $50k then surely a ZX80 >> should be worth at least $10k, or a MK14 even more etc. etc. and they're not. > > I acutally have an MK14, I have no idea what it's worth. I must get round > to repairing it (the unheatsinked -- thanks Sinclair! -- 7805 went dead > short and wiped out many of the chips. Fortuanely the monitor ROMs > survived, and I do have a replacement SC/MP somehwere). It was my first > computer, which means it has some sentimental value to me, but that's > about the only reason I keep it. The hardware design is not pleasant > (It's pretty obvious from the circuit diagram that the display latches > should be 74175s, but some idiot oredered 74157s by misatake and they > were kludged in (a mux with one input tied to the output will make a > transparent latch -- most of the time) Yes, another not-very-good design, although I'd still quite like one. I used to work for a guy who had one in his warehouse, sitting on a shelf, and I kind of regret not seeing if he'd sell it. I think it was his first machine though and he kept it more for sentimental reasons, so I suspect he wouldn't have passed it on. >> I can understand the A1 being desirable - but $50k's worth of desirable just >> seems totally crazy for something that was only a very small part of computing >> history. > > I agree with you. If I had $50k spare, I would not buy an Apple 1. But > clearly some people want one, and who am I to judge them? Yes, there is that. The hoo-hah they attract just seems so out of proportion given what they are, though. cheers J. From oltmansg at bellsouth.net Thu Nov 19 17:07:23 2009 From: oltmansg at bellsouth.net (geoffrey oltmans) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 15:07:23 -0800 (PST) Subject: Non-fake Apple 1 on ebay In-Reply-To: <20091119144059.U51294@shell.lmi.net> References: <20091119144059.U51294@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <557071.40852.qm@web83909.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> I suppose that would be true if such books/documentaries were covering the history of computing. At some point you have to define the scope of your history though. For the case of the history of the personal computer however, it is probably sufficient to have a limited overview of computing prior to the emergence of the PC, and cover the reasons for such emergence and/or contrast with prior computers. If I were writing a book on the personal computer, I would probably start with the kit computers (S100 machines, KIM1, Apple I, etc.) of the 70's, with a cursory look at the minis/mainframe/timesharing era. ________________________________ From: Fred Cisin To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Sent: Thu, November 19, 2009 4:51:31 PM Subject: Re: Non-fake Apple 1 on ebay > > Way too many people think that computing history consists in its entirety > > of: > > Apple 1 > > Apple ][ > > IBM PC > > Macintosh > > along with Wordstar, WordPervert, Word > > (which of course was Cringely's personal history of computing experience) > > How many "documentaries" never even mention S100, TRS80, Atari, Commodore, > > Northstar, Proctology, KIM-1, Electric Pencil, Easy Writer, etc. > > and mention CP/M only as an introduction to Bill Gates? On Thu, 19 Nov 2009, Tony Duell wrote: > Isn't that a very biased list too? What about all the larger machines? > What about Xerox/3 Rivers? What about DEC and HP (I still think the 9830 > doesn't get the attention it deserves). What about larger IBM machines? > What about non-US micros (Acorn, for example). And so on (No, I know I am > missing stuff out too). I was specifically listing machines that were VERY similar to the ones that get covered, but never get mentioned by the "historians" of mass media, rather than supplying a corrected list. To be an APPROPRIATE sampling of computing history, DEC minis, IBM mainframes, need to be included, as well as acknowledging the machines from all of the seven dwarves, the era of EAM (my first computing work was alphabetizing using an 084 counting sorter), the fundamental relationships between personal computers, timesharing, "client/server", etc. I am NOT going to attempt to create an exhaustive, nor thorough, list so assume that lack of inclusion of your favorites is not intended to diminish their importance. Each of us KNOWS what the most important and significant machine was. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Nov 19 17:08:39 2009 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 16:08:39 -0700 Subject: Non-fake Apple 1 on ebay In-Reply-To: <20091119144059.U51294@shell.lmi.net> References: <20091119144059.U51294@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4B05CFF7.6000805@jetnet.ab.ca> Fred Cisin wrote: > I am NOT going to attempt to create an exhaustive, nor thorough, list so > assume that lack of inclusion of your favorites is not intended to > diminish their importance. Each of us KNOWS what the most important and > significant machine was. > The one I am sending email on is. :) > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com > From cclist at sydex.com Thu Nov 19 17:14:01 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 15:14:01 -0800 Subject: BBC report of "first computer virus" Message-ID: <4B0560B9.30595.18463EA@cclist.sydex.com> A tidbit about Fred Cohen and the First Ever Computer Virus on the Beeb: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/8366703.stm Except that I'm thinking that "first ever" is an exaggeration. Perhaps "first ever published for review". Even the name wasn't new in 1983. Around 1973, ten years earlier, I recall a CDC Sunnyvale ops emplyee got into some mischief on the Development Center 6400 running SCOPE 3.4 by writing a rather simple program that made use of two PP calls-- RSJ, to reschedule a job and RPV the "reprieve" service, used to recover from a job-terminating error, including a normal EOJ. The net result was that the job filled up the input queue with copies of itself and any attempt by the operator to kill it would simply spawn more copies. I seem to remember that the message displayed by the job was "You have caught a virus" or something similar. The only way out of the mess was to initiate a non-recovery deadstart of the system and then sort through jobs submitted for running before resubmitting them to find the culprit. I don't recall the name of the employee or what division he worked for; only that the COMSOURCE people wanted his head on a pike. This was about the time of one of many layoffs, so the guy may have been a short-timer anyway and just wanted to fire a parting shot. Does anyone else have a similar (earlier) story? --Chuck From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Nov 19 17:17:49 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 18:17:49 -0500 Subject: Non-fake Apple 1 on ebay In-Reply-To: References: <4B02D4FD.10603@snarc.net> <4B02B510.17621.14B644D@cclist.sydex.com> <4B032F31.3090709@gmail.com> <4B02D1D1.14778.1BBB49F@cclist.sydex.com> <4B03441E.2040705@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Nov 17, 2009 at 8:24 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >> I just remembered. ?It's rhenium. ?$6000-*mumble* per ounce. > > The most expensive thing I can think of is Boron - specifically the > purified B10 isotope. I once had a pair of ancient neutron detector > probes, with the inner surfaces coated with the stuff. The price makes > gold look like dog food - $10K per gram, roughly. The Helium3 they use for microKelvin heatpumps for radio telescopes is pretty pricey by the gram, but I don't remember the exact cost - it is in the thousands-per-gram range, though. -ethan From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Thu Nov 19 17:29:56 2009 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 17:29:56 -0600 Subject: Non-fake Apple 1 on ebay In-Reply-To: <4B03F1C6.6459.E1B697@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4B02D4FD.10603@snarc.net>, <4B03399B.23086.3512326@cclist.sydex.com>, <20091118115449.P55218@shell.lmi.net> <4B03F1C6.6459.E1B697@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4B05D4F4.10803@gmail.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > Back to the Apple I--is there inherently anything unique to the Apple > I to prevent the market from being flooded with fakes? Yes - the fact that it's so rare :-) I reckon someone could pull it off once or twice, but soon it would become obvious that at least some of the systems that were floating around were fakes, and buyers would start worrying about independent testing before they put their cash down. > My point is that it's not irreplaceable, like, say, a 1000 year old > sequoia or Abraham Lincoln's fingernail clippings... It would seem > to me that any intrinsic value would be hard to assess. Well to my mind a reproduction would be just that, no matter how faithful it was to the original. So does it have value because it's art? I don't really think so. Does it have value because it it's historically significant? Sure - but then shouldn't that value be in line with other things that have made similar contributions to computing? (I know I'm not getting any closer to understanding this, but the discussion's interesting :-) cheers Jules From pat at computer-refuge.org Thu Nov 19 18:10:01 2009 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 16:10:01 -0800 Subject: Cromemco Z-2 and IMSAI 8080 at Purdue In-Reply-To: <4B0585D8.9010009@snarc.net> References: <4B051263.17309.5261F7@cclist.sydex.com> <4B0585D8.9010009@snarc.net> Message-ID: <4B05DE59.1040906@computer-refuge.org> Evan Koblentz wrote: > I forwarded the message to Pat Finnegan (just in case) .... Thanks for the notes about this. I'll work with the people in charge of the stuff to make sure that it gets a good home. Pat From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Nov 19 18:14:51 2009 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 16:14:51 -0800 Subject: Non-fake Apple 1 on ebay In-Reply-To: <4B05D4F4.10803@gmail.com> References: <4B02D4FD.10603@snarc.net>, <4B03399B.23086.3512326@cclist.sydex.com>, <20091118115449.P55218@shell.lmi.net> <4B03F1C6.6459.E1B697@cclist.sydex.com> <4B05D4F4.10803@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B05DF7B.7020604@bitsavers.org> Jules Richardson wrote: > Does it have value because it it's historically > significant? Sure - but then shouldn't that value be in line with other > things that have made similar contributions to computing? > The main thing seems to be that the two guys that created it are cult figures. The Xerox Alto is one machine I can think of that has never sold for anywhere near the price that Apple I's can get, and is actually fun to play with. Apple I's are really boring machines to actually use. Very few people outside Silicon Valley even know who created the Alto, but everyone knows who the two Steves are. From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Nov 19 18:24:45 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 19:24:45 -0500 Subject: Unknown IBM S/360s In-Reply-To: <4B055C18.10646.1724CC0@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4B05567A.30549.15C5D65@cclist.sydex.com> <4B055C18.10646.1724CC0@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > Ah, same as on the S/360. Just read, no punch or sort? ?2540 or 2520 > maybe? There may have been a way to get an 80 column punch - but IBM *really* wanted you to not do that. -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Nov 19 18:30:33 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 19:30:33 -0500 Subject: BBC report of "first computer virus" In-Reply-To: <4B0560B9.30595.18463EA@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4B0560B9.30595.18463EA@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > Does anyone else have a similar (earlier) story? There is that Univac ANIMAL tape story, if you Google for it. The "first" virus to spread from machine to machine. -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Nov 19 18:39:20 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 19:39:20 -0500 Subject: Non-fake Apple 1 on ebay In-Reply-To: <4B05D4F4.10803@gmail.com> References: <4B02D4FD.10603@snarc.net> <4B03399B.23086.3512326@cclist.sydex.com> <20091118115449.P55218@shell.lmi.net> <4B03F1C6.6459.E1B697@cclist.sydex.com> <4B05D4F4.10803@gmail.com> Message-ID: > Yes - the fact that it's so rare :-) I reckon someone could pull it off once > or twice, but soon it would become obvious that at least some of the systems > that were floating around were fakes A smart crook could pull it off many times. Try this: Make a *really* convincing fake Apple 1. Put it on Ebay for $100K, but maybe hint that if it might be available off the site. Say you have *two* Apple 1s. Make it sound like you really need the money - foreclosure or something, and you need to sell your crown jewels. If it sells for $100K, laugh all the way to the bank. If it does not, collect contacts to a bunch of rich prospective buyers. Sell them each a machine for maybe $30K. Chances are they will not boast about getting an Apple 1, for fear of theft or hundreds of geeks trying to buy it. If someone boasts, explain it as the second Apple 1. Laugh all the way to the bank, a few times. Repeat in a few years. -- Will From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Thu Nov 19 18:56:13 2009 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 00:56:13 +0000 Subject: Hard-sector discs -- how many sectors? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B05E92D.4020003@philpem.me.uk> Tony Duell wrote: > I hope you're handling 8" disks. I have some 32 sector hard-sectoed 8" > floppies (blank, so I have no idea what machine they were used in) It should work with anything that has a 34-pin Shugart interface. It supports the pseudo-Shugart interface PCs use (including the twisted wire), too. The current "Must Have" format support list is: - 8-inch: hard and soft-sector (untested, I don't have a drive or discs) - 5.25-inch: hard and soft-sector (I have a 96tpi double-sided drive and soft-sector discs, but no hard-sector ones; a 48tpi double-sided drive might also be worth testing) - 3.5-inch: soft-sector. Do hard-sector 3.5" discs even exist? Most of the drives I've looked at use the position of the spindle motor to derive the index signal, so I'm guessing "no". Theoretically the following should also work: - Amstrad 3-inch. Don't have one of these, don't feel like gutting a CPC/PCW/ to get one. I seem to recall the drives are 80 track and Shugart interfaced, though. - Zenith Minisport 2-inch. Assumption: the drive uses a Shugart interface, and you have a junked MiniSport to "liberate" the drive from. Disc formats ============ As far as disc formats go.... pick one. Any FM or MFM based format should be readable (and probably writeable too) with the standard hardware, microcode and firmware. If you want to add support for another format, you basically just have to change the microcode (which is loaded into the FPGA every time the hardware is cold-booted). MFM hard drives should also be fine, but a buffer/converter board will be necessary (to convert from differential to single-ended signalling). RLL should also work if you've got software to decode the contents of the drive. Software ======== Open-sourced, multiplatform. Should work on any platform with a libusb port -- that's Linux (kernel 2.2+), Darwin (Mac OS X), the various BSDs, and Windows 2000 thru Vista (32 and 64 bit). That's what, 95% of the current OS market? My discussions with the Software Preservation Society have turned sour, so it's not likely you'll be able to read a disc and produce a .IPF (or the precursor format, whose extension I can't remember right now) from it. I'm not even keen on adding an "IPF writer" extension given that the libcapsimage library is a binary blob. I might look into an extension to the ImageDisk format to store raw track data, but storing the relevant metadata (sample rate, acquisition settings...) might be tricky. Either way, the output formats are going to be open and documented, in the same way as the .IMD format. I think that answers just about all the questions... -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From rcini at optonline.net Thu Nov 19 18:56:29 2009 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 19:56:29 -0500 Subject: Non-fake Apple 1 on ebay In-Reply-To: <4B02DABC.1070902@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: On 11/17/09 12:17 PM, "Curt @ Atari Museum" wrote: > Despite the crazy high price - I must say I am very impressed with the > original box, even the original sales receipt, now THAT is a nice > collectable, I wish the seller and possible buyer good luck. > > Question - I've never seen the bottom of an Apple 1 - are those jumper > wires original "fix" wires to the board or did someone do some repair > work on the board? > > Curt > > Evan Koblentz wrote: >> 320447681957 >> >> ... Speaking of crazy prices ... >> Out of curiosity, the listing mentions that "(btw, When Steve Wozniak saw this unit he told me that the first batches of Apple 1's used a brand of chip they later replaced? because they blew out easily.? He said those chips were on this unit, which is probably why the unit didn't boot in the mid-80s.)" Anyone know what's this is about? I also didn't notice anything that says it actually works. If fact, the above implies that it doesn't. Rich -- Rich Cini Collector of Classic Computers Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator http://www.altair32.com http://www.classiccmp.org/cini From RichA at vulcan.com Thu Nov 19 18:59:13 2009 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 16:59:13 -0800 Subject: Non-fake Apple 1 on ebay In-Reply-To: <20091119144059.U51294@shell.lmi.net> References: <20091119144059.U51294@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: > From: Fred Cisin > Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2009 2:52 PM >>> How many "documentaries" never even mention S100, TRS80, Atari, Commodore, >>> Northstar, Proctology, KIM-1, Electric Pencil, Easy Writer, etc. >>> and mention CP/M only as an introduction to Bill Gates? > On Thu, 19 Nov 2009, Tony Duell wrote: >> Isn't that a very biased list too? What about all the larger machines? > To be an APPROPRIATE sampling of computing history, DEC minis, IBM > mainframes, need to be included, as well as acknowledging the machines > from all of the seven dwarves, the era of EAM (my first computing work was > alphabetizing using an 084 counting sorter), the fundamental relationships > between personal computers, timesharing, "client/server", etc. That last clause is very interesting: That is where we have concentrated our efforts. We are most interested in the development of interactive computing, both single-user (usually minis) and timeshared systems (usually mainframes, but not always), into the personal computing model that grew out of the Alto into the microcomputers of the later 70s and the 80s. Our general time period is the 1960s through the 1980s. We are also interested in the other side of the coin, the batch processing big iron that many people think of as computing in that era, but every museum has to have a focus. We think that there are others who have a better handle on what is required to show off EAM and tube-based computers, for example, so we would rather cooperate with them than compete. Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Server Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at livingcomputermuseum.org (206) 342-2239 (206) 465-2916 cell http://www.pdpplanet.org/ http://www.livingcomputermuseum.org/ From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Nov 19 19:01:46 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 17:01:46 -0800 (PST) Subject: Non-fake Apple 1 on ebay In-Reply-To: References: <4B02D4FD.10603@snarc.net> <4B03399B.23086.3512326@cclist.sydex.com> <20091118115449.P55218@shell.lmi.net> <4B03F1C6.6459.E1B697@cclist.sydex.com> <4B05D4F4.10803@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20091119165937.T56116@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 19 Nov 2009, William Donzelli wrote: > A smart crook could pull it off many times. > Try this: He could also get ONE real one, get it "authenticated", and then print up lots of copies of the "authentication". From jim at g1jbg.co.uk Thu Nov 19 19:34:10 2009 From: jim at g1jbg.co.uk (Jim Beacon) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 01:34:10 -0000 Subject: Software/documentation for the LSI-11 inside a Bridgeport Series II CNC milling machine? References: Message-ID: <88AEF5C41170411987CEED9F5E95BB21@XPBOX> From: "Ethan Dicks" > Hi, All, > > I was helping someone in town with some motor issues on their > circa-1980 Bridgeport CNC mill for which they fortunately have many > original docs. I was tremendously surprised to find that there's an > LSI-11 in the heart of the CNC cabinet. The docs have schematics, > register maps, etc., and even instructions for how to use the > Bridgeport punched-tape-loadable diagnostics. Fortunately, this unit > has the optional punched-tape reader. Unfortunately, it has no tapes. > > I've done some cursory looking around and little is leaping out at me > (except frequent mentions of folks who have upgraded away from the > original CNC package). I'm wondering if anyone on the list knows > where to pick up images of the diagnostic software for this thing. > > Thanks for any tips or hints. > > -ethan > Hi Ethan, you may want to try in either the Bridgeport or the Antique Machinery sections of Practical Machinist: http://www.practicalmachinist.com/ Jim. From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Nov 19 19:42:17 2009 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 17:42:17 -0800 (PST) Subject: Non-fake Apple 1 on ebay In-Reply-To: <20091119144059.U51294@shell.lmi.net> References: <20091119144059.U51294@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: > diminish their importance. Each of us KNOWS what the most important and > significant machine was. > Which of course is the Commodore 64. :D g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Nov 19 19:53:03 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 17:53:03 -0800 (PST) Subject: Non-fake Apple 1 on ebay In-Reply-To: References: <20091119144059.U51294@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20091119175230.F56116@shell.lmi.net> > > diminish their importance. Each of us KNOWS what the most important and > > significant machine was. On Thu, 19 Nov 2009, Gene Buckle wrote: > Which of course is the Commodore 64. :D Would it have come about without the Vic-20? From cclist at sydex.com Thu Nov 19 19:55:59 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 17:55:59 -0800 Subject: Hard-sector discs -- how many sectors? In-Reply-To: <4B05E92D.4020003@philpem.me.uk> References: , <4B05E92D.4020003@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4B0586AF.20356.218ABD1@cclist.sydex.com> On 20 Nov 2009 at 0:56, Philip Pemberton wrote: > Theoretically the following should also work: > - Amstrad 3-inch. Don't have one of these, don't feel like gutting > a > CPC/PCW/ to get one. I seem to recall the drives are 80 track and > Shugart interfaced, though. > - Zenith Minisport 2-inch. Assumption: the drive uses a Shugart > interface, and you have a junked MiniSport to "liberate" the drive > from. How about the 3 inch Mitsumi "Quick Disk"? No sectors or one sector, depending on how you look at it. Not a Shugart interface, but used on early Nintendo boxes, Korg synths, Smith Corona word processors... You can also add 3.25" floppies to your list, as they use a more-or- less standard 34-pin interface. Cheers, Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Nov 19 20:37:22 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 18:37:22 -0800 (PST) Subject: Other disk and drive types (Was: Hard-sector discs -- how many In-Reply-To: <4B0586AF.20356.218ABD1@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4B05E92D.4020003@philpem.me.uk> <4B0586AF.20356.218ABD1@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20091119180647.P56116@shell.lmi.net> MMFM? Amiga (MFM, without IBM style sector headers) Tandy PDD? (3.5" ""hard sector"" (index off of spindle?)) 3" (Amdek, Amstrad, etc.) 3.25" (Dysan) are hard to distinguish from 5.25" Some formats, such as Intertec Superbrain had the data bits inverted relative to the header bits Some, such as TRS80, got weird with their Data Address Marks 2.5" and 2.9" There were some with "conventional structures", and some with single track spirals Amlyn which preceded IBM's 1.2M is 5 1.2M disks in a cartridge with a disk changer mechanism Kodak, Drivetec 2.8M "ED" "vertical recording" 3.5" 360 RPM, 1000K bits per second "Floptical" (20M 3.5", SCSI interface) LS120? (IDE interface) Iomega products (only readable by Iomega drives until the Click of death) Exatron Stringy Floppy Tape drives that used an SA400 interface I saw a "memory stick"? reader that was shaped like a 3.5" floppy, and inserted into the floppy drive . . . and then, there are some obscure ones, and even some unusual ones. From cclist at sydex.com Thu Nov 19 21:33:27 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 19:33:27 -0800 Subject: Other disk and drive types (Was: Hard-sector discs -- how many In-Reply-To: <20091119180647.P56116@shell.lmi.net> References: , <4B0586AF.20356.218ABD1@cclist.sydex.com>, <20091119180647.P56116@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4B059D87.26578.271E7FE@cclist.sydex.com> On 19 Nov 2009 at 18:37, Fred Cisin wrote: > I saw a "memory stick"? reader that was shaped like a 3.5" floppy, and > inserted into the floppy drive SanDisk "Flash Path" drive among others. Has an electromagnet, a AVR micro, some SRAM and other "glue". The floppy drive positions over cylinder 0 and converses with the micro in the unit via the electromagnet. The sector presented by default is a "no system here" boot. All in all, pretty clever. At Durango, we used GCR on 100 tpi with drive boards modified for a little more "headroom" to get 12x512 bytes per track. WD1781 controller and a whole bunch of random logic. Were "twiggy" drives mentioned? --Chuck From bryan.pope at comcast.net Thu Nov 19 22:07:09 2009 From: bryan.pope at comcast.net (Bryan Pope) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 23:07:09 -0500 Subject: Cromemco Z-2 and IMSAI 8080 at Purdue In-Reply-To: <4B059141.2050407@snarc.net> References: <4B051263.17309.5261F7@cclist.sydex.com> <4B0585D8.9010009@snarc.net> <4B058E43.2070404@jbrain.com> <4B059141.2050407@snarc.net> Message-ID: <4B0615ED.4070903@comcast.net> Evan Koblentz wrote: > >>> Also, those of us associated with the Vintage Computer Festival do >>> not like it when Erik's forum is called "VCF" .... thank you. :) >> Can someone clarify as to why? It seems a perfectly good acronym to me. > Because "VCF" is already an established term in the hobby for "Vintage > Computer Festival." That's not revisionist history; everyone knows > we've been calling the events VCF 1.0, VCF 2.0, VCF Europe, VCF East, > etc. since 1997 when it began. Sellam actually has a trademark on the > term "Vintage Computer Festival" but he couldn't get VCF because it's > also a file extension and it used in lots of other non-related > places. But anyhow, for the hobby, we all know what VCF is -- > Sellam's event. (It's not like Hans or Patrick or myself just decided > to have our own events and call them VCF. Sellam owns the franchise > and we openly admit it's a for-profit endeavor.) > > So, nothing against Erik, but when people call his forum the "VCF" > they are creating confusion. Can we just call Erik's web board the VC Forum? Cheers, Bryan From geoffr at zipcon.net Thu Nov 19 22:09:40 2009 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoffrey Reed) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 20:09:40 -0800 Subject: Cromemco Z-2 and IMSAI 8080 at Purdue In-Reply-To: <4B0615ED.4070903@comcast.net> Message-ID: On 11/19/09 8:07 PM, "Bryan Pope" wrote: > Can we just call Erik's web board the VC Forum? > > Cheers, > > Bryan But then you'll annoy venture capitalists -grin- From bryan.pope at comcast.net Thu Nov 19 22:19:34 2009 From: bryan.pope at comcast.net (Bryan Pope) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 23:19:34 -0500 Subject: Cromemco Z-2 and IMSAI 8080 at Purdue In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B0618D6.8070703@comcast.net> Geoffrey Reed wrote: > On 11/19/09 8:07 PM, "Bryan Pope" wrote: > > >> Can we just call Erik's web board the VC Forum? >> >> Cheers, >> >> Bryan >> > > > > But then you'll annoy venture capitalists -grin- > > > Tag dutifully taken! :p I was hoping the crowd here would automatically know that "VC" mean "Vintage Computer" and not venture capitalists or umm..., anything else. Outside of here, VC would of course be fair game. Cheers, Bryan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Nov 19 22:21:04 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 23:21:04 -0500 Subject: Cromemco Z-2 and IMSAI 8080 at Purdue In-Reply-To: References: <4B0615ED.4070903@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Thu, Nov 19, 2009 at 11:09 PM, Geoffrey Reed wrote: > On 11/19/09 8:07 PM, "Bryan Pope" wrote: > >> Can we just call Erik's web board the VC Forum? >> > > > But then you'll annoy venture capitalists -grin- > If there are any here, they can prove it by funding my startup. Otherwise, they can zip it. ;-) -ethan From ploopster at gmail.com Fri Nov 20 00:21:33 2009 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 01:21:33 -0500 Subject: Non-fake Apple 1 on ebay In-Reply-To: References: <4B049FD2.8050300@comcast.net> Message-ID: <9a2027530911192221o767c4788la6744d158f054729@mail.gmail.com> In every picture I've seen, the Apple I's board has been wave-soldered. Peace... Sridhar On Nov 19, 2009 5:00 PM, "Tony Duell" wrote: > > Chuck Guzis wrote: > > Back to the Apple I--is there inherently anything unique to the Apple >... But how many people would know what to look for? Wasn't the Apple 1 originally a kit? In which case I am suprised some joker hasn't tried a L@@K ULTRA RARE Apple 1 unassembled kit. That would get round the solder problem. -tony From evan at snarc.net Fri Nov 20 00:29:18 2009 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 01:29:18 -0500 Subject: Non-fake Apple 1 on ebay In-Reply-To: <9a2027530911192221o767c4788la6744d158f054729@mail.gmail.com> References: <4B049FD2.8050300@comcast.net> <9a2027530911192221o767c4788la6744d158f054729@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B06373E.7080600@snarc.net> > Wasn't the Apple 1 originally a kit? No. From cclist at sydex.com Fri Nov 20 01:45:35 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 23:45:35 -0800 Subject: Non-fake Apple 1 on ebay In-Reply-To: <9a2027530911192221o767c4788la6744d158f054729@mail.gmail.com> References: <4B049FD2.8050300@comcast.net>, , <9a2027530911192221o767c4788la6744d158f054729@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B05D89F.26876.358BB5D@cclist.sydex.com> On 20 Nov 2009 at 1:21, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > In every picture I've seen, the Apple I's board has been > wave-soldered. I recall that there was some chatter about being able to buy the bare PCB, but it never happened as far as I knew. I only saw the completed boards. With only 4K of memory, I wasn't interested--I already had my MITS box with 8K and several of my friends had IMSAIs. Discussion at the time in my circle usually centered around how much better constructed the IMSAI box was than the MITS. I couldn't argue. Within about a year, I had an IMSAI, then migrated to an Integrand box. But I still have the lowly and dusty Altair sitting on a shelf... The 6502 to me always seemed to be a little "brain dead" compared to the 8080. But that was a subject then of much debate. I'm still trying to remember who, about that time, brought out a 6502 S100 board. Was it Solid State Music? --Chuck From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Fri Nov 20 03:36:03 2009 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 09:36:03 +0000 Subject: Hard-sector discs -- how many sectors? In-Reply-To: <4B0586AF.20356.218ABD1@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4B05E92D.4020003@philpem.me.uk> <4B0586AF.20356.218ABD1@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4B066303.7050605@philpem.me.uk> Chuck Guzis wrote: > How about the 3 inch Mitsumi "Quick Disk"? No sectors or one > sector, depending on how you look at it. Not a Shugart interface, > but used on early Nintendo boxes, Korg synths, Smith Corona word > processors... If you can find me a pinout for the drive, I'll tell you... As long as data is transmitted in the same form as a Shugart-interface drive -- a pulse every time there's a flux transition -- then there should be no major issues. Obviously adapters will need to be made up, but that's not usually a big deal. Worst case would be wanting to connect an Apple 400k Mac drive up to the analyser -- you'd need to generate the PWM speed control signals manually. Adding support for the status readback channel and 4-phase stepping would be a bit of a pain as well... I'm calling that one "theoretically possible, but there are better solutions" -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Fri Nov 20 03:43:27 2009 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 09:43:27 +0000 Subject: Other disk and drive types (Was: Hard-sector discs -- how many In-Reply-To: <20091119180647.P56116@shell.lmi.net> References: , <4B05E92D.4020003@philpem.me.uk> <4B0586AF.20356.218ABD1@cclist.sydex.com> <20091119180647.P56116@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4B0664BF.6090209@philpem.me.uk> Fred Cisin wrote: > MMFM? Yes, with appropriate software. > Amiga (MFM, without IBM style sector headers) Yep. Set the hardware to MFM-sync, using the sync-word 0x4489 (SYNC-A1). > Tandy PDD? (3.5" ""hard sector"" (index off of spindle?)) Should be possible. > 3" (Amdek, Amstrad, etc.) > 3.25" (Dysan) > are hard to distinguish from 5.25" If you can find me a drive and a pinout, I'll tell you :) > Some formats, such as Intertec Superbrain had the data bits inverted > relative to the header bits > Some, such as TRS80, got weird with their Data Address Marks That would be a software issue, not a hardware one. As long as there's either an FM or MFM synch word to lock onto, or an index pulse, reading the data should be possible. Decoding it might take some work. > 2.5" and 2.9" There were some with "conventional structures", and some > with single track spirals That might involve increasing the buffer size on the analyser. My prototype is 512K (because that's how big the SRAM on the Altera DE1 board is), but the "plan" is to use a 256K chip (big enough to allow a track to be read index-to-index twice in one operation, making it possible to find the "start" and "end" of a track in software). > Amlyn which preceded IBM's 1.2M is 5 1.2M disks in a cartridge with a disk > changer mechanism > > Kodak, Drivetec > 2.8M "ED" "vertical recording" 3.5" 360 RPM, 1000K bits per second I've got one of these drives somewhere.. an IBM thing with no pinout or documentation. I know it's Shugart interface with a few extra pins added (the ribbon cable provides both power and data IIRC). > "Floptical" (20M 3.5", SCSI interface) > > LS120? (IDE interface) > > Iomega products (only readable by Iomega drives until the Click of death) Not a chance. I'm not doing IDE or SCSI, just the lower-level interfaces: MFM, RLL and (possibly) ESDI. > Exatron Stringy Floppy > > Tape drives that used an SA400 interface Maybe, if someone writes the software. > I saw a "memory stick"? reader that was shaped like a 3.5" floppy, and > inserted into the floppy drive That would probably be SmartDisk's floppy-disc memory card reader. They were talking about its potential uses in software protection dongles in the mid-90s. I seem to recall there being an article in "Electronics: The Maplin Magazine" about it, but I don't know which issue it's in (and I have six A4 box files full of them). -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From ragooman at comcast.net Fri Nov 20 05:51:34 2009 From: ragooman at comcast.net (Dan Roganti) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 06:51:34 -0500 Subject: Cromemco Z-2 and IMSAI 8080 at Purdue In-Reply-To: <4B0585D8.9010009@snarc.net> References: <4B051263.17309.5261F7@cclist.sydex.com> <4B0585D8.9010009@snarc.net> Message-ID: <4B0682C6.6020409@comcast.net> Evan Koblentz wrote: > >> Someone over at VCF is worried that these will hit the dumpster. I >> think that's unlikely, but it might be worth looking into. >> >> http://vintage-computer.com/vcforum/showthread.php?p=120672 >> >> --Chuck >> > I forwarded the message to Pat Finnegan (just in case) .... Hi, I'm located in Pittsburgh and would like to rescue these machines. I can arrange pickup at their earliest convenience. =Dan -- http://www2.applegate.org/~ragooman/ http://www.midatlanticretro.org/ From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Fri Nov 20 07:05:11 2009 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 07:05:11 -0600 Subject: Non-fake Apple 1 on ebay In-Reply-To: <4B05D89F.26876.358BB5D@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4B049FD2.8050300@comcast.net>, , <9a2027530911192221o767c4788la6744d158f054729@mail.gmail.com> <4B05D89F.26876.358BB5D@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4B069407.8050609@gmail.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 20 Nov 2009 at 1:21, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > >> In every picture I've seen, the Apple I's board has been >> wave-soldered. Yes, I think that was one of their selling points - that they *weren't* kits, unlike so many other systems of the time. > The 6502 to me always seemed to be a little "brain dead" compared to > the 8080. But that was a subject then of much debate. With me it was always 6502 vs Z80 (I came in too late for the 8080), but same thought - although, having seen some of the impressive things people have done with 6502s, I don't think it necessarily matters (whether that's true of *any* CPU I'm not sure - presumably there were some around that really did make life incredibly difficult!) cheers Jules From ragooman at comcast.net Fri Nov 20 07:11:46 2009 From: ragooman at comcast.net (Dan Roganti) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 08:11:46 -0500 Subject: Non-fake Apple 1 on ebay In-Reply-To: References: <4B02D4FD.10603@snarc.net> <4B03399B.23086.3512326@cclist.sydex.com> <20091118115449.P55218@shell.lmi.net> <4B03F1C6.6459.E1B697@cclist.sydex.com> <4B05D4F4.10803@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B069592.6010101@comcast.net> William Donzelli wrote: >> Yes - the fact that it's so rare :-) I reckon someone could pull it off once >> or twice, but soon it would become obvious that at least some of the systems >> that were floating around were fakes >> > > A smart crook could pull it off many times. > > Try this: > > Make a *really* convincing fake Apple 1. Put it on Ebay for $100K, but > maybe hint that if it might be available off the site. Say you have > *two* Apple 1s. Make it sound like you really need the money - > foreclosure or something, and you need to sell your crown jewels. If > it sells for $100K, laugh all the way to the bank. If it does not, > collect contacts to a bunch of rich prospective buyers. Sell them each > a machine for maybe $30K. Chances are they will not boast about > getting an Apple 1, for fear of theft or hundreds of geeks trying to > buy it. If someone boasts, explain it as the second Apple 1. Laugh all > the way to the bank, a few times. Repeat in a few years. > > Someone that is *rich* enough to fork over this amount of money *should* have enough common sense to authenticate a rare item like this in the first place, before paying for it on ebay -- of all places --. And I'm sure they would have several ties to find someone to take care of this for them. I bet that the faker wouldn't stand up to the pressure of being scrutinized over such a large transaction. =Dan -- http://www2.applegate.org/~ragooman/ http://www.midatlanticretro.org/ From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Nov 20 07:36:17 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 08:36:17 -0500 Subject: Non-fake Apple 1 on ebay In-Reply-To: <4B05D4F4.10803@gmail.com> References: <4B02D4FD.10603@snarc.net> <4B03399B.23086.3512326@cclist.sydex.com> <20091118115449.P55218@shell.lmi.net> <4B03F1C6.6459.E1B697@cclist.sydex.com> <4B05D4F4.10803@gmail.com> Message-ID: > Yes - the fact that it's so rare :-) I reckon someone could pull it off once > or twice, but soon it would become obvious that at least some of the systems > that were floating around were fakes A smart crook could pull it off many times. Try this: Make a *really* convincing fake Apple 1. Put it on Ebay for $100K, but maybe hint that if it might be available off the site. Say you have *two* Apple 1s. Make it sound like you really need the money - foreclosure or something, and you need to sell your crown jewels. If it sells for $100K, laugh all the way to the bank. If it does not, collect contacts to a bunch of rich prospective buyers. Sell them each a machine for maybe $30K. Chances are they will not boast about getting an Apple 1, for fear of theft or hundreds of geeks trying to buy it. If someone boasts, explain it as the second Apple 1. Laugh all the way to the bank, a few times. Repeat in a few years. -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Nov 20 07:47:37 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 08:47:37 -0500 Subject: Non-fake Apple 1 on ebay In-Reply-To: <4B069592.6010101@comcast.net> References: <4B02D4FD.10603@snarc.net> <4B03399B.23086.3512326@cclist.sydex.com> <20091118115449.P55218@shell.lmi.net> <4B03F1C6.6459.E1B697@cclist.sydex.com> <4B05D4F4.10803@gmail.com> <4B069592.6010101@comcast.net> Message-ID: > Someone that is *rich* enough to fork over this amount of money *should* > have enough common sense to authenticate a rare item like this in the first > place, before paying for it on ebay -- of all places --. You only use Ebay to get the word out, looking as naive as possible. If all goes well, the sales of the fakes will be off Ebay. > And I'm sure they > would have several ties to find someone to take care of this for them. I bet > that the faker wouldn't stand up to the pressure of being scrutinized over > such a large transaction. The art and antiques world is full of fakes, and there the science of authentication is way further advanced compared to whatever authentication methods we apply to vintage computer items. (sorry about the double post - Gmail farted). -- Will From jws at jwsss.com Thu Nov 19 19:11:31 2009 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 17:11:31 -0800 Subject: BBC report of "first computer virus" In-Reply-To: <4B0560B9.30595.18463EA@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4B0560B9.30595.18463EA@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4B05ECC3.2070604@jwsss.com> I created a start trek on Multics which people happily played w/o a thought. I advertised that the program stored results / high scores in a common file. I also included the capability to do remote execution which I didn't advertise. This was in 1975. I would have thought that the advertised feature that it logged info including user info would have been sufficient to keep people who where paranoid from playing it, but the whole site went for it. I waited until some of the sysadmins had used it and then showed the log to the honeywell support SA (site system administrator). That brought the use of programs on the sysadmin accounts by the sysadmins to a halt. I suppose you could call this a virus, but the term trojan was used at the time. Once one had executed the program, I could insert a sleeper program to allow the remote execution to take place on any future session, but didn't actually turn that on, due to having accomplished what I wanted to with the remote execution capability. Pretty much woke everyone up to be careful what credentials were used before running any programs that were not part of the system's suite which were trusted. Jim Chuck Guzis wrote: > A tidbit about Fred Cohen and the First Ever Computer Virus on the > Beeb: > > > Does anyone else have a similar (earlier) story? > > --Chuck > > > From andreas at haertel-net.de Fri Nov 20 07:08:06 2009 From: andreas at haertel-net.de (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Andreas_H=E4rtel?=) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 14:08:06 +0100 Subject: Tektronix 4225 -- is it an X terminal? Message-ID: <0M2XRt-1O1MxL15BF-00sB5s@mrelayeu.kundenserver.de> Hi, I?ve found this thread when googled the web. I?ve got a TEK 4225 also, but there isn?t any docs anywhere. The graphics functions work fine over serial line with my MicroVAX. But no more information about the AUI interface and its setup exists in web. Have you got something else in the meantime? cheers Andreas From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri Nov 20 08:16:24 2009 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 06:16:24 -0800 (PST) Subject: Non-fake Apple 1 on ebay In-Reply-To: <20091119175230.F56116@shell.lmi.net> References: <20091119144059.U51294@shell.lmi.net> <20091119175230.F56116@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 19 Nov 2009, Fred Cisin wrote: >>> diminish their importance. Each of us KNOWS what the most important and >>> significant machine was. > > On Thu, 19 Nov 2009, Gene Buckle wrote: >> Which of course is the Commodore 64. :D > > Would it have come about without the Vic-20? > It's entirely possible. Tramiel was (and probably still is) a pretty crafty dude. The Vic-20 was also the first computer I ever earned. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From oltmansg at bellsouth.net Fri Nov 20 08:21:46 2009 From: oltmansg at bellsouth.net (geoffrey oltmans) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 06:21:46 -0800 (PST) Subject: Non-fake Apple 1 on ebay In-Reply-To: <4B069407.8050609@gmail.com> References: <4B049FD2.8050300@comcast.net>, , <9a2027530911192221o767c4788la6744d158f054729@mail.gmail.com> <4B05D89F.26876.358BB5D@cclist.sydex.com> <4B069407.8050609@gmail.com> Message-ID: <766758.62580.qm@web83906.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Keep in mind that the 6502 debuted for $25, which was far and away cheaper than any of the Intel and Motorola offerings. So, there's a cost/performance consideration as well. ________________________________ From: Jules Richardson To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Sent: Fri, November 20, 2009 7:05:11 AM Subject: Re: Non-fake Apple 1 on ebay Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 20 Nov 2009 at 1:21, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > >> In every picture I've seen, the Apple I's board has been >> wave-soldered. Yes, I think that was one of their selling points - that they *weren't* kits, unlike so many other systems of the time. > The 6502 to me always seemed to be a little "brain dead" compared to the 8080. But that was a subject then of much debate. With me it was always 6502 vs Z80 (I came in too late for the 8080), but same thought - although, having seen some of the impressive things people have done with 6502s, I don't think it necessarily matters (whether that's true of *any* CPU I'm not sure - presumably there were some around that really did make life incredibly difficult!) cheers Jules From jdr_use at bluewin.ch Fri Nov 20 08:40:06 2009 From: jdr_use at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 15:40:06 +0100 Subject: Non-fake Apple 1 on ebay / Xerox Alto In-Reply-To: <4B05DF7B.7020604@bitsavers.org> References: <4B02D4FD.10603@snarc.net>, <4B03399B.23086.3512326@cclist.sydex.com>, <20091118115449.P55218@shell.lmi.net> <4B03F1C6.6459.E1B697@cclist.sydex.com> <4B05D4F4.10803@gmail.com> <4B05DF7B.7020604@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4B06AA46.8070205@bluewin.ch> > The Xerox Alto is one machine I can think of that has never sold for > anywhere near the price that Apple I's can get, and is actually fun to > play > with. Apple I's are really boring machines to actually use. > > Very few people outside Silicon Valley even know who created the Alto, > but everyone knows who the two Steves are. Does that mean that Alto's do change hand ? If so, at what prices ? I would not mind spending some USD's on an Alto, to accompany the ETH Lilith.. Always wondered what a Lilith would fetch...... Jos From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Fri Nov 20 08:47:02 2009 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 12:47:02 -0200 Subject: Non-fake Apple 1 on ebay In-Reply-To: <4B069592.6010101@comcast.net> References: <4B02D4FD.10603@snarc.net> <4B03399B.23086.3512326@cclist.sydex.com> <20091118115449.P55218@shell.lmi.net> <4B03F1C6.6459.E1B697@cclist.sydex.com> <4B05D4F4.10803@gmail.com> <4B069592.6010101@comcast.net> Message-ID: <4a15f9590911200647l7fbfd1aeka7872e88ed333ed0@mail.gmail.com> > > take care of this for them. I bet that the faker wouldn't stand up to the > pressure of being scrutinized over such a large transaction. > > Easy: Put someone in charge of selling it for you. Preferably someone with no vintage computer knowledge. Imagine a woman. His father died a month ago. Only now she had the guts to open his "treasured chest" with lots of old electronics and like. She founds an apple board, and this board has a good resale value. She is selling on ebay, $3000 first bid, let the market regulate from now on. Easily it will surpass $10000 I believe. AND she can be 90% honest to herself, since the board she got from a friend (a scammer) and has not much info about that. It is easy to scam people, as it is easier to be scammed. Take care. And I still think it is a **crazy** thing to pay more than a hundred on an apple I board. From jdr_use at bluewin.ch Fri Nov 20 09:07:16 2009 From: jdr_use at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 16:07:16 +0100 Subject: Kenbak PCB wanted Message-ID: <4B06B0A4.2080807@bluewin.ch> There have been various successful attempts at recreating the Kenbak. If anyone has a spare PCB for sale, I'd be interested. Jos Dreesen From dkelvey at hotmail.com Fri Nov 20 09:09:39 2009 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 07:09:39 -0800 Subject: Cromemco Z-2 and IMSAI 8080 at Purdue In-Reply-To: <4B0682C6.6020409@comcast.net> References: <4B051263.17309.5261F7@cclist.sydex.com>, <4B0585D8.9010009@snarc.net>, <4B0682C6.6020409@comcast.net> Message-ID: ---------------------------------------- > Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 06:51:34 -0500 > From: ragooman at comcast.net > To: > Subject: Re: Cromemco Z-2 and IMSAI 8080 at Purdue > > Evan Koblentz wrote: >> >>> Someone over at VCF is worried that these will hit the dumpster. I >>> think that's unlikely, but it might be worth looking into. >>> >>> http://vintage-computer.com/vcforum/showthread.php?p=120672 >>> >>> --Chuck >>> >> I forwarded the message to Pat Finnegan (just in case) .... > > Hi, > > I'm located in Pittsburgh and would like to rescue these machines. I can > arrange pickup at their earliest convenience. > > =Dan > Hi I thought I should mention. When I looked at the picture, it looked like it was just an IMSAI front panel. It looked like it had a cable to tie to the Cromemco. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail: Trusted email with Microsoft's powerful SPAM protection. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/177141664/direct/01/ http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/177141664/direct/01/ From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Nov 20 09:30:39 2009 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 07:30:39 -0800 Subject: Hard-sector discs -- how many sectors? In-Reply-To: <4B066303.7050605@philpem.me.uk> References: , <4B05E92D.4020003@philpem.me.uk> <4B0586AF.20356.218ABD1@cclist.sydex.com> <4B066303.7050605@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4B06B61F.1010002@bitsavers.org> Philip Pemberton wrote: > Worst case would be wanting to connect an Apple 400k Mac drive up to the > analyser -- you'd need to generate the PWM speed control signals > manually. 800K would make more sense. The motor is controlled by the onboard microprocessor and the 20 pin interface is the same for the hd20 and superdrive. They are also much more common today than 400K. From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Nov 20 10:16:25 2009 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 08:16:25 -0800 Subject: Non-fake Apple 1 on ebay In-Reply-To: <4B069407.8050609@gmail.com> References: <4B049FD2.8050300@comcast.net>, , <9a2027530911192221o767c4788la6744d158f054729@mail.gmail.com> <4B05D89F.26876.358BB5D@cclist.sydex.com> <4B069407.8050609@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B06C0D9.7000600@bitsavers.org> Jules Richardson wrote: >> The 6502 to me always seemed to be a little "brain dead" compared to >> the 8080. Chuck Peddle told me a couple of months ago that the 6502 was never intended to be a general-purpose microprocessor, it was designed to be a replacement for hard-wired logic. They had a die size target to hit to get to the price point they wanted and pulled out things they thought were unnecessary for its use in that market. In particular, the length of the registers. I had always wondered why they built a microprocessor with an 8 bit stack pointer, when the previous 6800 design had 16. From brianlanning at gmail.com Fri Nov 20 10:34:14 2009 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 10:34:14 -0600 Subject: Non-fake Apple 1 on ebay In-Reply-To: <4B06C0D9.7000600@bitsavers.org> References: <4B049FD2.8050300@comcast.net> <9a2027530911192221o767c4788la6744d158f054729@mail.gmail.com> <4B05D89F.26876.358BB5D@cclist.sydex.com> <4B069407.8050609@gmail.com> <4B06C0D9.7000600@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <6dbe3c380911200834g6f827d4evd4553cc891c121ee@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, Nov 20, 2009 at 10:16 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > Chuck Peddle told me a couple of months ago that the 6502 was never > intended > to be a general-purpose microprocessor, it was designed to be a replacement > for hard-wired logic. > They had a die size target to hit to get to the price point they wanted > and pulled out things they thought were unnecessary for its use in that > market. > In particular, the length of the registers. I had always wondered why they > built > a microprocessor with an 8 bit stack pointer, when the previous 6800 design > had > 16. > lol Who needs multiply and divide operations anyway? Great info, I never knew that. brian From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Nov 20 10:35:28 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 11:35:28 -0500 Subject: MR-78 programs for a DEC VT-78? Message-ID: Hi, All, After years of looking, thanks to a tip from this list, I finally have a VT-78 to play with. I got a complete WPS-78 system except for the cart - CPU, RX78 floppy enclosure, and DEC-badged Diablo Hytype? II daisywheel printer and all the cables. So far, everything checks out. The CPU came with an MR-78 ROM pack on it. For those that might not know, it's an optional bolt-on firmware box that attaches to a DB25 plug and simulates a high-speed papertape reader. From reviewing the MR-78 printset (at the end of some of the electronic copies of the VT-78 printset), it appears that DEC sold it with several sets of firmware - there's at least a WPS78 load and a diagnostic firmware load, and possibly one or two more. Are there any ROM dumps of the MR-78 anywhere? In all my years of collecting PDP-8 parts and software and docs, I've never seen any, but I might as well ask. The circuit is utterly trivial to reproduce, and, of course, the size of modern ROMs would make it a no-brainer to make an uber-MR-78 with all known versions of the firmware on it, or with user-definable content as well (the code is stored as 8-bit bytes simulating a papertape stream (either BIN or RIM (have to check the "panel ROM code" to see which one) with some functionality removed (no RUBOUT, no pauses, and such)). Obviously I can dump the one I have, but it would be interesting to review the contents of the others. Thanks for any pointers on the MR-78 and its contents. -ethan From oltmansg at bellsouth.net Fri Nov 20 10:40:53 2009 From: oltmansg at bellsouth.net (geoffrey oltmans) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 08:40:53 -0800 (PST) Subject: Non-fake Apple 1 on ebay In-Reply-To: <4B06C0D9.7000600@bitsavers.org> References: <4B049FD2.8050300@comcast.net>, , <9a2027530911192221o767c4788la6744d158f054729@mail.gmail.com> <4B05D89F.26876.358BB5D@cclist.sydex.com> <4B069407.8050609@gmail.com> <4B06C0D9.7000600@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <955470.36332.qm@web83913.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Interesting. I wonder if Bill Mensch's take is different? ________________________________ From: Al Kossow To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Sent: Fri, November 20, 2009 10:16:25 AM Subject: Re: Non-fake Apple 1 on ebay Jules Richardson wrote: >> The 6502 to me always seemed to be a little "brain dead" compared to the 8080. Chuck Peddle told me a couple of months ago that the 6502 was never intended to be a general-purpose microprocessor, it was designed to be a replacement for hard-wired logic. They had a die size target to hit to get to the price point they wanted and pulled out things they thought were unnecessary for its use in that market. In particular, the length of the registers. I had always wondered why they built a microprocessor with an 8 bit stack pointer, when the previous 6800 design had 16. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Nov 20 10:46:53 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 11:46:53 -0500 Subject: 6502 trivia (was Re: Non-fake Apple 1 on ebay) Message-ID: On 11/20/09, Brian Lanning wrote: > On Fri, Nov 20, 2009 at 10:16 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > >> Chuck Peddle told me a couple of months ago that the 6502 was never >> intended to be a general-purpose microprocessor, it was designed to >> be a replacement for hard-wired logic. Well it certainly exceeded those expectations! >> They had a die size target to hit to get to the price point they wanted >> and pulled out things they thought were unnecessary for its use in that >> market. Interesting way to build it - start with a processor... discard things until it fits in a few mm^2... profit! >> In particular, the length of the registers. I had always wondered why they >> built a microprocessor with an 8 bit stack pointer, when the previous 6800 >> design had 16. The first two processors I worked with were the 1802 and the 6502. I do remember the wee stack size was occasionally a problem. It would have been nice to have been able to at least put it somewhere other than $0100, but they probably didn't have enough room for spare transistors to even do that. As a little-brother to the 6800, it still does a pretty good job. I remember wishing for 16-bit registers, but in effect, zero-page is a wad of slow 16-bit registers. > lol Who needs multiply and divide operations anyway? When I used to write commercial games, we used to go to great lengths to calculate screen addresses, etc., with tables and hard-coded multiple routines (times3, times9, done with shifts and adds) since brute-force multiple wasn't an option. > Great info, I never knew that. Interesting to hear the history on it. -ethan From ript at disasterarea.net Fri Nov 20 10:49:17 2009 From: ript at disasterarea.net (Dave Taylor) Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2009 03:49:17 +1100 (EST) Subject: Water damage Message-ID: <51341.202.124.88.116.1258735757.squirrel@webmail4.pair.com> Hi all, First post here. Long story short, I recently rescued a friend of mine's Commodore equipment after he'd suffered a fire in his apartment. None of it caught on fire but some copped a direct hit from a fire hose and was sitting there for 4 days while I went through the bureaucracy of gaining access to the place (he's in hospital at the moment but will recover, for the record). While this gear isn't particularly uncommon (although the Amiga stuff might be quite expensive to replace), I'd like to rescue it for him even if it's just for morale purposes. Anyway, rusty RF shields have leaked rusty water all over the PCBs and I really don't know how to deal with it. So far, I've used dry cotton buds/q-tips to clean off anything visible, but I'd like to know what people recommend for cleaning the boards properly. I was thinking isopropyl alcohol - I've previously used it for leaked caps, but I'm all out right now. Is methylated spirits a bad substitution? Speaking of leaked caps, it looks like the water has caused a lot of caps to leak as well - I've never seen leaking caps in the act, it's always been dry "after the event" type damage. If there's anything worth noting about this, that'd be great to know too. Thanks for any advice! Cheers, Dave. From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Fri Nov 20 10:59:05 2009 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 10:59:05 -0600 Subject: Non-fake Apple 1 on ebay In-Reply-To: References: <4B02D4FD.10603@snarc.net> <4B03399B.23086.3512326@cclist.sydex.com> <20091118115449.P55218@shell.lmi.net> <4B03F1C6.6459.E1B697@cclist.sydex.com> <4B05D4F4.10803@gmail.com> <4B069592.6010101@comcast.net> Message-ID: <4B06CAD9.2050709@gmail.com> William Donzelli wrote: > The art and antiques world is full of fakes, and there the science of > authentication is way further advanced compared to whatever > authentication methods we apply to vintage computer items. My understanding was that it's more-or-less known how many Apple 1 boards survived, and where those surviving boards are now (I think Sellam has done a lot of work on this?) - which makes it harder to suddenly explain the existence of a new board which nobody knew about. I'm not saying that it'd be impossible to pull it off, just more difficult than with a lot of other rare systems. AIUI, fake antiques are usually items where there's less of an understanding of how many were ever made in the first place, or of where all the surviving ones currently are; it seems there's a bit more of a paper trail in the case of an Apple 1. Give it a hundred years and it'll probably be a different matter. cheers Jules From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Fri Nov 20 10:59:34 2009 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 10:59:34 -0600 Subject: Non-fake Apple 1 on ebay In-Reply-To: <4a15f9590911200647l7fbfd1aeka7872e88ed333ed0@mail.gmail.com> References: <4B02D4FD.10603@snarc.net> <4B03399B.23086.3512326@cclist.sydex.com> <20091118115449.P55218@shell.lmi.net> <4B03F1C6.6459.E1B697@cclist.sydex.com> <4B05D4F4.10803@gmail.com> <4B069592.6010101@comcast.net> <4a15f9590911200647l7fbfd1aeka7872e88ed333ed0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B06CAF6.9020407@gmail.com> Alexandre Souza wrote: > Imagine a woman. You lost me after that point... :-) From brianlanning at gmail.com Fri Nov 20 11:06:45 2009 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 11:06:45 -0600 Subject: Water damage In-Reply-To: <51341.202.124.88.116.1258735757.squirrel@webmail4.pair.com> References: <51341.202.124.88.116.1258735757.squirrel@webmail4.pair.com> Message-ID: <6dbe3c380911200906j577214a6t43466209c319ee95@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, Nov 20, 2009 at 10:49 AM, Dave Taylor wrote: > Hi all, > > First post here. Long story short, I recently rescued a friend of mine's > Commodore equipment after he'd suffered a fire in his apartment. None of > it caught on fire but some copped a direct hit from a fire hose and was > sitting there for 4 days while I went through the bureaucracy of gaining > access to the place (he's in hospital at the moment but will recover, for > the record). > > While this gear isn't particularly uncommon (although the Amiga stuff > might be quite expensive to replace), I'd like to rescue it for him even > if it's just for morale purposes. > > Anyway, rusty RF shields have leaked rusty water all over the PCBs and I > really don't know how to deal with it. So far, I've used dry cotton > buds/q-tips to clean off anything visible, but I'd like to know what > people recommend for cleaning the boards properly. > > I was thinking isopropyl alcohol - I've previously used it for leaked > caps, but I'm all out right now. Is methylated spirits a bad > substitution? > > Ug, sorry to hear that. Someone makes alcohol-in-a-spray-can electronics cleaner. I bought it at frys. It looks like those cans of compressed air with a wd-40 little red straw. I cleaned up a motherboard that had yogurt on it (kids, don't ask). Worked great. Just spray it on liberally and let it wash away anything on there, then let it dry. No q-tips needed. If you have a machine that can't be salvaged, at least save as many parts as you can. For the amigas, the cases are worth something. You can still get plenty of motherboards on ebay for not much compared to the cost of the whole machine. > Speaking of leaked caps, it looks like the water has caused a lot of caps > to leak as well - I've never seen leaking caps in the act, it's always > been dry "after the event" type damage. If there's anything worth noting > about this, that'd be great to know too. > > Thanks for any advice! > Can water really make caps leak after only a few days? Leaking caps means it's time for the soldering iron. I probably wouldn't bother since motherboards are plentiful. The amiga forums (i'm on amiga.org) are full of people who have replaced leaky caps on amiga motherboards. They're full of good information. One last thing... you need to remove any amiga barrel type battery you find. If caps are leaking, the battery probably is too. The original 500 didn't have one, but the 500+ did. For the 500, I believe the battery is inside the metal shielded trap door memory upgrade, same for the 600. The big box amigas had them right on the motherboard. The 2000 is especially notorious for leaking acid everywhere. brian From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Fri Nov 20 11:11:56 2009 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 15:11:56 -0200 Subject: Water damage In-Reply-To: <6dbe3c380911200906j577214a6t43466209c319ee95@mail.gmail.com> References: <51341.202.124.88.116.1258735757.squirrel@webmail4.pair.com> <6dbe3c380911200906j577214a6t43466209c319ee95@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4a15f9590911200911k395bc064nd6a3719c009e9ffa@mail.gmail.com> > > > Anyway, rusty RF shields have leaked rusty water all over the PCBs and I > > really don't know how to deal with it. So far, I've used dry cotton > > buds/q-tips to clean off anything visible, but I'd like to know what > > people recommend for cleaning the boards properly. > Well, these are not "I guess" tips. This is what I do and have done to mostly all old gear I have Disassemble to the smallest parts you can get, wash everything with water and neutral soap, rinse many times with water. Put it to dry ON THE SUN (yes) for two or three days - of course, don't let it out on night - and you'll have mostly new boards. I even go further, I not only wash but rub everything with a toothbrush to be certain that every place is scrubbed clean. Most of my boards are sparkling clean, and all of them ware cleaned with this method Good luck and seend greetings to your friend. From brianlanning at gmail.com Fri Nov 20 11:28:09 2009 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 11:28:09 -0600 Subject: Water damage In-Reply-To: <4a15f9590911200911k395bc064nd6a3719c009e9ffa@mail.gmail.com> References: <51341.202.124.88.116.1258735757.squirrel@webmail4.pair.com> <6dbe3c380911200906j577214a6t43466209c319ee95@mail.gmail.com> <4a15f9590911200911k395bc064nd6a3719c009e9ffa@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6dbe3c380911200928x73a7690bq1cef91e0693c5fe5@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, Nov 20, 2009 at 11:11 AM, Alexandre Souza wrote: > Put it to dry ON THE SUN > (yes) for two or three days - of course, don't let it out on night - and > you'll have mostly new boards. > Watch out for eprom stickers falling off. brian From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Fri Nov 20 11:37:04 2009 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 15:37:04 -0200 Subject: Water damage In-Reply-To: <6dbe3c380911200928x73a7690bq1cef91e0693c5fe5@mail.gmail.com> References: <51341.202.124.88.116.1258735757.squirrel@webmail4.pair.com> <6dbe3c380911200906j577214a6t43466209c319ee95@mail.gmail.com> <4a15f9590911200911k395bc064nd6a3719c009e9ffa@mail.gmail.com> <6dbe3c380911200928x73a7690bq1cef91e0693c5fe5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4a15f9590911200937s4bcf901co65d9b1502824c121@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, Nov 20, 2009 at 3:28 PM, Brian Lanning wrote: > On Fri, Nov 20, 2009 at 11:11 AM, Alexandre Souza > wrote: > > > Put it to dry ON THE SUN > > (yes) for two or three days - of course, don't let it out on night - and > > you'll have mostly new boards. > > > Watch out for eprom stickers falling off. Only if paper made. Usually they are plastic with a silicone glue From doc at vaxen.net Fri Nov 20 11:53:33 2009 From: doc at vaxen.net (Doc Shipley) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 11:53:33 -0600 Subject: Water damage In-Reply-To: <4a15f9590911200911k395bc064nd6a3719c009e9ffa@mail.gmail.com> References: <51341.202.124.88.116.1258735757.squirrel@webmail4.pair.com> <6dbe3c380911200906j577214a6t43466209c319ee95@mail.gmail.com> <4a15f9590911200911k395bc064nd6a3719c009e9ffa@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B06D79D.6090904@vaxen.net> Alexandre Souza wrote: > Disassemble to the smallest parts you can get, wash everything with water > and neutral soap, rinse many times with water. Put it to dry ON THE SUN > (yes) for two or three days - of course, don't let it out on night - and "Denise!!! GIT BACK IN HERE! I *TOLD* you not to be out there after dark!" Doc From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Nov 20 10:57:56 2009 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 09:57:56 -0700 Subject: Water damage In-Reply-To: <4a15f9590911200937s4bcf901co65d9b1502824c121@mail.gmail.com> References: <51341.202.124.88.116.1258735757.squirrel@webmail4.pair.com> <6dbe3c380911200906j577214a6t43466209c319ee95@mail.gmail.com> <4a15f9590911200911k395bc064nd6a3719c009e9ffa@mail.gmail.com> <6dbe3c380911200928x73a7690bq1cef91e0693c5fe5@mail.gmail.com> <4a15f9590911200937s4bcf901co65d9b1502824c121@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: At 3:37 PM -0200 11/20/09, Alexandre Souza wrote: >On Fri, Nov 20, 2009 at 3:28 PM, Brian Lanning wrote: > > Watch out for eprom stickers falling off. > >Only if paper made. Usually they are plastic with a silicone glue ???? Most EPROM's I have, are with paper stickers. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From cclist at sydex.com Fri Nov 20 12:02:55 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 10:02:55 -0800 Subject: Non-fake Apple 1 on ebay In-Reply-To: <4B06C0D9.7000600@bitsavers.org> References: <4B049FD2.8050300@comcast.net>, <4B069407.8050609@gmail.com>, <4B06C0D9.7000600@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4B06694F.11908.1C938D@cclist.sydex.com> On 20 Nov 2009 at 8:16, Al Kossow wrote: > Chuck Peddle told me a couple of months ago that the 6502 was never > intended to be a general-purpose microprocessor, it was designed to be > a replacement for hard-wired logic. They had a die size target to hit > to get to the price point they wanted and pulled out things they > thought were unnecessary for its use in that market. In particular, > the length of the registers. I had always wondered why they built a > microprocessor with an 8 bit stack pointer, when the previous 6800 > design had 16. There were variants of the 6502 with mask-programmed ROM on board (I have a Micropolis floppy drive with one) and 3M Iomat quarter-inch tape drives had a controller that's not much bigger than a file card that holds a 6502, EPROM, a little SRAM and a VIA. So the thing *was* suited to what we'd call microcontroller use. The $25 price tag may be a red herring. ISTR that MOS started a price war at Wescon, and the other exhibitors soon followed with severly reduced pricing. Within one or two years, a Wescon attendee could go home with not only a sample CPU, but databooks as well, for free. I used to have a National PACE that I received in that way. I think my GI CP1600 was a Wescon freebie. The microprocessor war was heating up fast... --Chuck From roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk Fri Nov 20 12:12:51 2009 From: roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk (Roger Holmes) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 18:12:51 +0000 Subject: ICT computer tape on eBay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0D7E5152-77B7-48FF-8F24-BCCD45EF3EB9@microspot.co.uk> If anyone here has bought/is going to buy any of the ICT computer tapes from eBay (current item number 380177625923), then I probably have the only machine in the world that can read them. As I already have about 300 of these, I'm not willing to shell out 20 pounds each for them, and they may be blank anyway. However I might be missing out on data that is on them, so if either you would like to know what's on them or don't mind giving me the chance to read them then I would be vary happy to do so. You might be thinking they are standard 7 track of 9 track tapes. They aren't. They fit the Ampex TM4 drives fitted to the ICT 1300/1301/1302 (and also to the Leo 3 I think) and are ten track devices with (for the computer industry), non standard hubs. The hubs are the audio/video standard hubs, and I suspect some buyers think they are 1/4 inch audio tapes as the vendor does not spell out that they are 1/2 inch (though I questioned this and they are 1/2 inch). I suppose they will make interesting ornaments for the wall. As they've no labels they're probably blank, but who knows, they might contain the holy grail of a copy of the 1302 Executive. Roger Holmes Owner of 'Flossie' the worlds last working ICT 1301, delivered to the University of London 1962 for administration, like grading exam results and printing certificates. From brianlanning at gmail.com Fri Nov 20 12:16:21 2009 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 12:16:21 -0600 Subject: Water damage In-Reply-To: <4B06D79D.6090904@vaxen.net> References: <51341.202.124.88.116.1258735757.squirrel@webmail4.pair.com> <6dbe3c380911200906j577214a6t43466209c319ee95@mail.gmail.com> <4a15f9590911200911k395bc064nd6a3719c009e9ffa@mail.gmail.com> <4B06D79D.6090904@vaxen.net> Message-ID: <6dbe3c380911201016x2ab7f67ep30a2321758814360@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, Nov 20, 2009 at 11:53 AM, Doc Shipley wrote: > Alexandre Souza wrote: > >> Disassemble to the smallest parts you can get, wash everything with water >> and neutral soap, rinse many times with water. Put it to dry ON THE SUN >> (yes) for two or three days - of course, don't let it out on night - and >> > > "Denise!!! GIT BACK IN HERE! I *TOLD* you not to be out there after > dark!" > Why does Agnes get to have all the fun?! :-) brian From dgahling at hotmail.com Fri Nov 20 12:20:17 2009 From: dgahling at hotmail.com (Dan Gahlinger) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 13:20:17 -0500 Subject: Water damage In-Reply-To: <4a15f9590911200911k395bc064nd6a3719c009e9ffa@mail.gmail.com> References: <51341.202.124.88.116.1258735757.squirrel@webmail4.pair.com>, <6dbe3c380911200906j577214a6t43466209c319ee95@mail.gmail.com>, <4a15f9590911200911k395bc064nd6a3719c009e9ffa@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: at least use distilled water? > Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 15:11:56 -0200 > Subject: Re: Water damage > From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Well, these are not "I guess" tips. This is what I do and have done to > mostly all old gear I have > > Disassemble to the smallest parts you can get, wash everything with water > and neutral soap, rinse many times with water. Put it to dry ON THE SUN > (yes) for two or three days - of course, don't let it out on night - and > you'll have mostly new boards. > > I even go further, I not only wash but rub everything with a toothbrush to > be certain that every place is scrubbed clean. Most of my boards are > sparkling clean, and all of them ware cleaned with this method > > Good luck and seend greetings to your friend. _________________________________________________________________ Eligible CDN College & University students can upgrade to Windows 7 before Jan 3 for only $39.99. Upgrade now! http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9691819 From blkline at attglobal.net Fri Nov 20 12:31:31 2009 From: blkline at attglobal.net (Barry L. Kline) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 13:31:31 -0500 Subject: Water damage In-Reply-To: References: <51341.202.124.88.116.1258735757.squirrel@webmail4.pair.com>, <6dbe3c380911200906j577214a6t43466209c319ee95@mail.gmail.com>, <4a15f9590911200911k395bc064nd6a3719c009e9ffa@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B06E083.4080909@attglobal.net> Dan Gahlinger wrote: > at least use distilled water? I use distilled water for a rinse after cleaning, then Isopropyl alcohol to remove the water. Barry From roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk Fri Nov 20 12:34:37 2009 From: roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk (Roger Holmes) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 18:34:37 +0000 Subject: VC-F. (Was Re: Cromemco Z-2 and IMSAI 8080 at Purdue) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8C1CD0B5-FCB5-46E5-8A1F-2DCB4273AA3C@microspot.co.uk> > Message: 3 > Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 23:19:34 -0500 > From: Bryan Pope > Subject: Re: Cromemco Z-2 and IMSAI 8080 at Purdue >> >> >>> Can we just call Erik's web board the VC Forum? >>> >>> >> >> >> But then you'll annoy venture capitalists -grin- >> >> >> > Tag dutifully taken! :p > > I was hoping the crowd here would automatically know that "VC" mean > "Vintage Computer" and not venture capitalists or umm..., anything > else. Outside of here, VC would of course be fair game. Irrespective of their interests, I think if you mention VC to anyone in the British Commonwealth you'll find they automatically think the abbreviation means Victoria Cross, the highest award for military gallantry. So high that most are awarded posthumously,. Someone with VC after their name gets a lot of respect here. Roger Holmes. From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Nov 20 12:42:11 2009 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 18:42:11 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Water damage In-Reply-To: <6dbe3c380911200906j577214a6t43466209c319ee95@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <240471.26792.qm@web23402.mail.ird.yahoo.com> I don't recall any barrel battery on my A600. I have two A600's though, one with the metal shield (on last attempt I gave up opening it up on fear of wrecking the case) and one without (which had the case clips damaged by the previous user... no metal shielding and no barrel battery that I can recall). I guess it depends on which revision A600 board you have. The one I opened up is stamped "A300 June Bug". Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk --- On Fri, 20/11/09, Brian Lanning wrote: From: Brian Lanning Subject: Re: Water damage To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Date: Friday, 20 November, 2009, 17:06 On Fri, Nov 20, 2009 at 10:49 AM, Dave Taylor wrote: One last thing... you need to remove any amiga barrel type battery you find.? If caps are leaking, the battery probably is too.? The original 500 didn't have one, but the 500+ did.? For the 500, I believe the battery is inside the metal shielded trap door memory upgrade, same for the 600.? The big box amigas had them right on the motherboard.? The 2000 is especially notorious for leaking acid everywhere. brian From ript at disasterarea.net Fri Nov 20 12:44:45 2009 From: ript at disasterarea.net (Dave Taylor) Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2009 05:44:45 +1100 Subject: Water damage In-Reply-To: <6dbe3c380911200906j577214a6t43466209c319ee95@mail.gmail.com> References: <51341.202.124.88.116.1258735757.squirrel@webmail4.pair.com> <6dbe3c380911200906j577214a6t43466209c319ee95@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B06E39D.7030605@disasterarea.net> > Ug, sorry to hear that. > > Someone makes alcohol-in-a-spray-can electronics cleaner. I bought it at > frys. It looks like those cans of compressed air with a wd-40 little red > straw. I cleaned up a motherboard that had yogurt on it (kids, don't ask). > Worked great. Just spray it on liberally and let it wash away anything on > there, then let it dry. No q-tips needed. Thanks for that tip - I'll have a look tomorrow at the local electronics shop. I've been trying to do what I can right away since I'm a little edgy about wet electronics. I figured that I should try to do something as soon as possible. > If you have a machine that can't be salvaged, at least save as many parts as > you can. For the amigas, the cases are worth something. You can still get > plenty of motherboards on ebay for not much compared to the cost of the > whole machine. I wasn't planning on throwing anything away, but what you say will definitely help with the morale thing if everything doesn't go so well. >> Speaking of leaked caps, it looks like the water has caused a lot of caps >> to leak as well - I've never seen leaking caps in the act, it's always >> been dry "after the event" type damage. If there's anything worth noting >> about this, that'd be great to know too. >> >> Thanks for any advice! >> > > Can water really make caps leak after only a few days? I was actually pretty surprised. There were drops of liquid under the caps that looked like water at first glance, but were way too viscous - almost goo. I think the plastic coating caught the moisture and it somehow brewed in there. > Leaking caps means it's time for the soldering iron. I probably wouldn't > bother since motherboards are plentiful. The amiga forums (i'm on amiga.org) > are full of people who have replaced leaky caps on amiga motherboards. > They're full of good information. Actually, the only component I've ever had to solder on my own computers is ye olde capacitor ;) I've pretty much decided that I should replace most of them, so that isn't much of an issue. I should probably sign up there anyway, though. Thanks again. The rest of the components are surface mounted and look to be okay (apart from the RF TV circuits which are almost impossible to dry out even with a hair dryer) > One last thing... you need to remove any amiga barrel type battery you > find. If caps are leaking, the battery probably is too. The original 500 > didn't have one, but the 500+ did. For the 500, I believe the battery is > inside the metal shielded trap door memory upgrade, same for the 600. The > big box amigas had them right on the motherboard. The 2000 is especially > notorious for leaking acid everywhere. The main hardware I'm looking at is a couple of A1200s and a cd32 with accelerators/third party add-on boards, so luckily this stuff doesn't have a barrel type battery. There are button type batteries on the add-on boards that definitely have leaked and I've already removed them. I do wonder if they leaked beforehand or not since they were actually quite dry. It could be chemistry at work too I suppose (certainly not an expert). Thanks for your input! Dave. From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Fri Nov 20 12:47:33 2009 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 10:47:33 -0800 Subject: Non-fake Apple 1 on ebay References: <4B049FD2.8050300@comcast.net>, <4B069407.8050609@gmail.com>, <4B06C0D9.7000600@bitsavers.org> <4B06694F.11908.1C938D@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4B06E442.86FAE760@cs.ubc.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote: > > On 20 Nov 2009 at 8:16, Al Kossow wrote: > > > Chuck Peddle told me a couple of months ago that the 6502 was never > > intended to be a general-purpose microprocessor, it was designed to be > > a replacement for hard-wired logic. They had a die size target to hit > > to get to the price point they wanted and pulled out things they > > thought were unnecessary for its use in that market. In particular, > > the length of the registers. I had always wondered why they built a > > microprocessor with an 8 bit stack pointer, when the previous 6800 > > design had 16. > > There were variants of the 6502 with mask-programmed ROM on board (I > have a Micropolis floppy drive with one) and 3M Iomat quarter-inch > tape drives had a controller that's not much bigger than a file card > that holds a 6502, EPROM, a little SRAM and a VIA. So the thing > *was* suited to what we'd call microcontroller use. The Osborne book lists 9 variants: 65x2 x=0|1 65x3 65x4 65x5 6506 varying in clock pins, interrupt pins, number of address-bus pins, and on-board ROM. I didn't know about this until I ran across it while reading the Osborne book, and then started noticing when I'd run across some of the small 28-pin variants on occasion. I believe this would be the first u-proc to take this approach of creating a family by paring down a 'standard', that the PIC family and other u-controllers would later leverage. From brianlanning at gmail.com Fri Nov 20 12:47:57 2009 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 12:47:57 -0600 Subject: 286 to 386 processor upgrades (and the amiga bridgeboard) Message-ID: <6dbe3c380911201047m633ef4eax1996adabf1b5c54a@mail.gmail.com> I just bought a 286 bridge board for the amiga. Much fun awaits... Does anyone know of a stash of 286 to 386 processor upgrades anywhere? I seem to remember a few companies marketing these. Also, iirc, there's a daughter card on the bridge board that covers the 286 socket. Any idea what I can use to widen the gap between the daughter (sandwich) card and the bridge board so that the processor upgrade would fit? Some short ribbon cables might be all it takes. I have an ide caching controller, scsi controller, sound blaster board, and network board ready to plug in. Still need a vga board. I have a 5.25" floppy floating around somewhere, but i'd like to find one of those 5.25" and 3.5" floppy combo drives. Imagine the possibilities :-) What I'd really like to find is one of those isa bus extenders that plug into a passive back plane in another case. With the external scsi tower, that would go a long way toward turning my 2000 into amigazilla. :-) brian From brianlanning at gmail.com Fri Nov 20 12:48:48 2009 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 12:48:48 -0600 Subject: Water damage In-Reply-To: <240471.26792.qm@web23402.mail.ird.yahoo.com> References: <6dbe3c380911200906j577214a6t43466209c319ee95@mail.gmail.com> <240471.26792.qm@web23402.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6dbe3c380911201048o419b656x4cae41503daa30a2@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, Nov 20, 2009 at 12:42 PM, Andrew Burton wrote: > > I don't recall any barrel battery on my A600. I have two A600's though, one > with the metal shield (on last attempt I gave up opening it up on fear of > wrecking the case) and one without (which had the case clips damaged by the > previous user... no metal shielding and no barrel battery that I can > recall). > I guess it depends on which revision A600 board you have. The one I opened > up is stamped "A300 June Bug". > I wasn't clear. I meant that it was inside the trapdoor memory upgrade, just like the 500. brian From ript at disasterarea.net Fri Nov 20 12:48:49 2009 From: ript at disasterarea.net (Dave Taylor) Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2009 05:48:49 +1100 Subject: Water damage In-Reply-To: <4B06E083.4080909@attglobal.net> References: <51341.202.124.88.116.1258735757.squirrel@webmail4.pair.com>, <6dbe3c380911200906j577214a6t43466209c319ee95@mail.gmail.com>, <4a15f9590911200911k395bc064nd6a3719c009e9ffa@mail.gmail.com> <4B06E083.4080909@attglobal.net> Message-ID: <4B06E491.3070701@disasterarea.net> I think I might be paranoid about rinsing it with water, just because of the situation. I'll give it a go. Am I right in thinking that the alcohol prevents "infection" from oxide type nasties or is that just a myth? Thanks, Dave. Barry L. Kline wrote: > Dan Gahlinger wrote: >> at least use distilled water? > > I use distilled water for a rinse after cleaning, then Isopropyl alcohol > to remove the water. > > Barry > > From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Nov 20 12:57:00 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 13:57:00 -0500 Subject: Non-fake Apple 1 on ebay In-Reply-To: <4B06CAD9.2050709@gmail.com> References: <4B02D4FD.10603@snarc.net> <4B03399B.23086.3512326@cclist.sydex.com> <20091118115449.P55218@shell.lmi.net> <4B03F1C6.6459.E1B697@cclist.sydex.com> <4B05D4F4.10803@gmail.com> <4B069592.6010101@comcast.net> <4B06CAD9.2050709@gmail.com> Message-ID: > My understanding was that it's more-or-less known how many Apple 1 boards > survived, and where those surviving boards are now (I think Sellam has done > a lot of work on this?) HA! You are likely very wrong. When it comes to antiques, there are ALWAYS more to find. I suspect there are at least Apple 1s still accounted for. One of my other interests is in military radio from the interbellum, and many of these radios were made in quantities on par or smaller than the run of Apple 1s. I have been collecting these for fifteen years, and pretty much know most of the players, and what they have. Certain types are presumed extinct, or maybe a singular example exists, and most collectors assume that example is all there will be. And Ebay still dredges up a few more radios each year... > AIUI, fake antiques are usually items where there's less of an understanding > of how many were ever made in the first place, or of where all the surviving > ones currently are; it seems there's a bit more of a paper trail in the case > of an Apple 1. Having Jobs and Woz around certainly helps, but one must realize that (I assume) early Apple records were spotty, and frankly, with age, their memories can be assumed to be getting spotty. The paper trail may not have much value. -- Will From brianlanning at gmail.com Fri Nov 20 12:57:02 2009 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 12:57:02 -0600 Subject: Water damage In-Reply-To: <4B06E39D.7030605@disasterarea.net> References: <51341.202.124.88.116.1258735757.squirrel@webmail4.pair.com> <6dbe3c380911200906j577214a6t43466209c319ee95@mail.gmail.com> <4B06E39D.7030605@disasterarea.net> Message-ID: <6dbe3c380911201057o7041e3bv71fcc2b0a7a76a13@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, Nov 20, 2009 at 12:44 PM, Dave Taylor wrote: > The rest of the components are surface mounted and look to be okay (apart > from the RF TV circuits which are almost impossible to dry out even with a > hair dryer) You can just remove those. That is, desolder and remove the feature. Most people don't use them. The main hardware I'm looking at is a couple of A1200s and a cd32 with > accelerators/third party add-on boards, so luckily this stuff doesn't have a > barrel type battery. There are button type batteries on the add-on boards > that definitely have leaked and I've already removed them. I do wonder if > they leaked beforehand or not since they were actually quite dry. It could be chemistry at work too I suppose (certainly not an expert). > The button batteries tend not to leak. So I bet it was the water. The caps under the floppy drive on the 600 and 1200 are notorious for leaking. You might want to replace those anyway while you're at it. The accelerators are ridiculously expensive on ebay. It's not uncommon for a 68030 accelerator for a 1200 to go for $200 or more. The 68060/powerpc boards can easily top $500. You might want to have a look at amigakit.com if you need odd parts. You can even get new old stock 1200s there. I think they have 68030 accelerator boards (for now) also. There's also retrobrite if the case looks bad. brian From rogpugh at mac.com Fri Nov 20 13:19:49 2009 From: rogpugh at mac.com (Roger Pugh) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 19:19:49 +0000 Subject: Indianapolis Message-ID: <88B1C396-06F7-42C0-B27B-8D003EE980D0@mac.com> Hi to all across the pond. Are there any places/stores of interest to our hobby in Indianapolis, or is it a bit of a black hole? I am on a business trip there next week from the UK anything worth seeing?? Roger From brianlanning at gmail.com Fri Nov 20 13:31:27 2009 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 13:31:27 -0600 Subject: Indianapolis In-Reply-To: <88B1C396-06F7-42C0-B27B-8D003EE980D0@mac.com> References: <88B1C396-06F7-42C0-B27B-8D003EE980D0@mac.com> Message-ID: <6dbe3c380911201131s2e55dd10lc97e4446d399dea9@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, Nov 20, 2009 at 1:19 PM, Roger Pugh wrote: > Hi to all across the pond. > > Are there any places/stores of interest to our hobby in Indianapolis, or > is it a bit of a black hole? > > I am on a business trip there next week from the UK anything worth > seeing?? > I used to live in indianapolis. It's a bit of a black hole. There's the children's museum which had a rather large and interesting model train layout. There's also the indianapolis motor speedway which had an old car museum. As far as old computers are concerned, not so much. Maybe you could post an ad on craigs list with some things you're looking for. Maybe you could come home with a new computer. brian From oltmansg at bellsouth.net Fri Nov 20 13:50:42 2009 From: oltmansg at bellsouth.net (geoffrey oltmans) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 11:50:42 -0800 (PST) Subject: Water damage In-Reply-To: <4B06E491.3070701@disasterarea.net> References: <51341.202.124.88.116.1258735757.squirrel@webmail4.pair.com>, <6dbe3c380911200906j577214a6t43466209c319ee95@mail.gmail.com>, <4a15f9590911200911k395bc064nd6a3719c009e9ffa@mail.gmail.com> <4B06E083.4080909@attglobal.net> <4B06E491.3070701@disasterarea.net> Message-ID: <230794.85680.qm@web83907.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> How about the ol' bag of rice trick... would that be of any greater benefit? :) ________________________________ From: Dave Taylor To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Sent: Fri, November 20, 2009 12:48:49 PM Subject: Re: Water damage I think I might be paranoid about rinsing it with water, just because of the situation. I'll give it a go. Am I right in thinking that the alcohol prevents "infection" from oxide type nasties or is that just a myth? Thanks, Dave. Barry L. Kline wrote: > Dan Gahlinger wrote: >> at least use distilled water? > > I use distilled water for a rinse after cleaning, then Isopropyl alcohol > to remove the water. > > Barry > > From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri Nov 20 14:22:43 2009 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 12:22:43 -0800 (PST) Subject: Water damage In-Reply-To: <6dbe3c380911201016x2ab7f67ep30a2321758814360@mail.gmail.com> References: <51341.202.124.88.116.1258735757.squirrel@webmail4.pair.com> <6dbe3c380911200906j577214a6t43466209c319ee95@mail.gmail.com> <4a15f9590911200911k395bc064nd6a3719c009e9ffa@mail.gmail.com> <4B06D79D.6090904@vaxen.net> <6dbe3c380911201016x2ab7f67ep30a2321758814360@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: >>> Disassemble to the smallest parts you can get, wash everything with water >>> and neutral soap, rinse many times with water. Put it to dry ON THE SUN >>> (yes) for two or three days - of course, don't let it out on night - and >>> >> >> "Denise!!! GIT BACK IN HERE! I *TOLD* you not to be out there after >> dark!" >> > > Why does Agnes get to have all the fun?! :-) > Because Gary is playing favorites again. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From bob at jfcl.com Fri Nov 20 14:38:25 2009 From: bob at jfcl.com (Bob Armstrong) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 12:38:25 -0800 Subject: Water damage In-Reply-To: <6dbe3c380911200928x73a7690bq1cef91e0693c5fe5@mail.gmail.com> References: <51341.202.124.88.116.1258735757.squirrel@webmail4.pair.com> <6dbe3c380911200906j577214a6t43466209c319ee95@mail.gmail.com> <4a15f9590911200911k395bc064nd6a3719c009e9ffa@mail.gmail.com> <6dbe3c380911200928x73a7690bq1cef91e0693c5fe5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <001801ca6a21$68f0ff90$3ad2feb0$@com> On Fri, Nov 20, 2009 at 11:11 AM, Alexandre Souza wrote: > Put it to dry ON THE SUN Compressed air is the thing for drying boards after they're washed. Not canned air - you'll go broke buying those cans - but a real air compressor and a "blow gun" nozzle. Just blow all the water down to one corner of the board and then off the edge. It even gets the water out from underneath components and from inside connector and socket pins. I routinely wash new boards after I've assembled them to remove solder flux, and you can completely dry a board in a couple of minutes this way. Bob From dgahling at hotmail.com Fri Nov 20 14:49:25 2009 From: dgahling at hotmail.com (Dan Gahlinger) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 15:49:25 -0500 Subject: Water damage In-Reply-To: <001801ca6a21$68f0ff90$3ad2feb0$@com> References: <51341.202.124.88.116.1258735757.squirrel@webmail4.pair.com> <6dbe3c380911200906j577214a6t43466209c319ee95@mail.gmail.com> <4a15f9590911200911k395bc064nd6a3719c009e9ffa@mail.gmail.com>, <6dbe3c380911200928x73a7690bq1cef91e0693c5fe5@mail.gmail.com>, <001801ca6a21$68f0ff90$3ad2feb0$@com> Message-ID: If you're going to wash your boards with soap & water, do NOT use tap water, use distilled water at a minimum. tap water has impurities which can cause corrosion. Dan. _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live: Make it easier for your friends to see what you?re up to on Facebook. http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9691816 From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Nov 20 14:54:23 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 15:54:23 -0500 Subject: Water damage In-Reply-To: <001801ca6a21$68f0ff90$3ad2feb0$@com> References: <51341.202.124.88.116.1258735757.squirrel@webmail4.pair.com> <6dbe3c380911200906j577214a6t43466209c319ee95@mail.gmail.com> <4a15f9590911200911k395bc064nd6a3719c009e9ffa@mail.gmail.com> <6dbe3c380911200928x73a7690bq1cef91e0693c5fe5@mail.gmail.com> <001801ca6a21$68f0ff90$3ad2feb0$@com> Message-ID: > ?Compressed air is the thing for drying boards after they're washed. ?Not > canned air - you'll go broke buying those cans - but a real air compressor > and a "blow gun" nozzle. Zap! -- Will From ploopster at gmail.com Fri Nov 20 14:57:29 2009 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 15:57:29 -0500 Subject: Water damage In-Reply-To: <001801ca6a21$68f0ff90$3ad2feb0$@com> References: <51341.202.124.88.116.1258735757.squirrel@webmail4.pair.com> <6dbe3c380911200906j577214a6t43466209c319ee95@mail.gmail.com> <4a15f9590911200911k395bc064nd6a3719c009e9ffa@mail.gmail.com> <6dbe3c380911200928x73a7690bq1cef91e0693c5fe5@mail.gmail.com> <001801ca6a21$68f0ff90$3ad2feb0$@com> Message-ID: <4B0702B9.2030304@gmail.com> Bob Armstrong wrote: >> Put it to dry ON THE SUN > > Compressed air is the thing for drying boards after they're washed. Not > canned air - you'll go broke buying those cans - but a real air compressor > and a "blow gun" nozzle. Just blow all the water down to one corner of the > board and then off the edge. It even gets the water out from underneath > components and from inside connector and socket pins. I routinely wash new > boards after I've assembled them to remove solder flux, and you can > completely dry a board in a couple of minutes this way. After compressed air, you can put it in a sealed container with phosphorus pentoxide, no? Peace... Sridhar From brianlanning at gmail.com Fri Nov 20 15:01:48 2009 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 15:01:48 -0600 Subject: Water damage In-Reply-To: References: <51341.202.124.88.116.1258735757.squirrel@webmail4.pair.com> <6dbe3c380911200906j577214a6t43466209c319ee95@mail.gmail.com> <4a15f9590911200911k395bc064nd6a3719c009e9ffa@mail.gmail.com> <6dbe3c380911200928x73a7690bq1cef91e0693c5fe5@mail.gmail.com> <001801ca6a21$68f0ff90$3ad2feb0$@com> Message-ID: <6dbe3c380911201301x114e699dsa7d213435a037e24@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, Nov 20, 2009 at 2:54 PM, William Donzelli wrote: > > Compressed air is the thing for drying boards after they're washed. Not > > canned air - you'll go broke buying those cans - but a real air > compressor > > and a "blow gun" nozzle. > > Zap! > You're saying that's a static electricity hazard? How is that? brian From arcbe2001 at yahoo.com Fri Nov 20 15:04:22 2009 From: arcbe2001 at yahoo.com (Russ Bartlett) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 13:04:22 -0800 (PST) Subject: Unknown IBM S/360s In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <424566.88858.qm@web110402.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Although the System/3 was viewed as a replacement for the IBM 1401, I'd have thought that more logically it would have replaced the 360/20 which to me wasn't a true 360 machine.? The smallest I worked on was the 360/25 under DOS before moving onto a 360/40 under Dos Power II.? Check out Youtube for an interesting IBM System/3 commercial.? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vRS3eXQ9gGY (in two parts this is part one) Russ --- On Thu, 11/19/09, Mike Loewen wrote: From: Mike Loewen Subject: Re: Unknown IBM S/360s To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Date: Thursday, November 19, 2009, 2:35 PM On Thu, 19 Nov 2009, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Peripherals for the 20 were less than wonderful.? In particular, I > remember the "Mother Fletcher's Card Mulcher" (cleaned up for general > consumption)... ???I've heard the same phrase applied to the 5424 on the System/3 - was that also used on the 20? Mike Loewen??? ??? ??? ??? mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology??? http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From cclist at sydex.com Fri Nov 20 15:06:35 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 13:06:35 -0800 Subject: Non-fake Apple 1 on ebay In-Reply-To: <4B06E442.86FAE760@cs.ubc.ca> References: <4B049FD2.8050300@comcast.net>, <4B06E442.86FAE760@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <4B06945B.14086.C4BC61@cclist.sydex.com> On 20 Nov 2009 at 10:47, Brent Hilpert wrote: > I believe this would be the first u-proc to take this approach of > creating a family by paring down a 'standard', that the PIC family and > other u-controllers would later leverage. Did these precede the 6800 microcontrollers? (e.g. 6801, 6803)? --Chuck From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Fri Nov 20 15:19:51 2009 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 13:19:51 -0800 Subject: 6502/6800 variants / was Re: Non-fake Apple 1 on ebay References: <4B049FD2.8050300@comcast.net>, <4B06E442.86FAE760@cs.ubc.ca> <4B06945B.14086.C4BC61@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4B0707F6.8E3E0D5E@cs.ubc.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote: > > On 20 Nov 2009 at 10:47, Brent Hilpert wrote: > > > I believe this would be the first u-proc to take this approach of > > creating a family by paring down a 'standard', that the PIC family and > > other u-controllers would later leverage. > > Did these precede the 6800 microcontrollers? (e.g. 6801, 6803)? I'll presume so, inasmuch as the Osborne book (1976) lists and discusses the nine 6502 variants, and of course the 6800, but makes no mention of any 6800 variants. From shumaker at att.net Fri Nov 20 15:58:20 2009 From: shumaker at att.net (steve shumaker) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 16:58:20 -0500 Subject: Indianapolis In-Reply-To: <6dbe3c380911201131s2e55dd10lc97e4446d399dea9@mail.gmail.com> References: <88B1C396-06F7-42C0-B27B-8D003EE980D0@mac.com> <6dbe3c380911201131s2e55dd10lc97e4446d399dea9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B0710FC.7040007@att.net> It's been many years but the closest places with anything of interest used to be Fair Radio Sales at http://fairradio.com/ and Mendelson's in Dayton www.mendelsons.com Both are a couple hours drive from the state line. they are large electronics suplus dealers that have been around for a long time s shumaker Brian Lanning wrote: > On Fri, Nov 20, 2009 at 1:19 PM, Roger Pugh wrote: > > >> Hi to all across the pond. >> >> Are there any places/stores of interest to our hobby in Indianapolis, or >> is it a bit of a black hole? >> >> I am on a business trip there next week from the UK anything worth >> seeing?? >> >> > > I used to live in indianapolis. It's a bit of a black hole. There's the > children's museum which had a rather large and interesting model train > layout. There's also the indianapolis motor speedway which had an old car > museum. > > As far as old computers are concerned, not so much. Maybe you could post an > ad on craigs list with some things you're looking for. Maybe you could come > home with a new computer. > > brian > > From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Nov 20 15:59:45 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 16:59:45 -0500 Subject: Water damage In-Reply-To: <6dbe3c380911201301x114e699dsa7d213435a037e24@mail.gmail.com> References: <51341.202.124.88.116.1258735757.squirrel@webmail4.pair.com> <6dbe3c380911200906j577214a6t43466209c319ee95@mail.gmail.com> <4a15f9590911200911k395bc064nd6a3719c009e9ffa@mail.gmail.com> <6dbe3c380911200928x73a7690bq1cef91e0693c5fe5@mail.gmail.com> <001801ca6a21$68f0ff90$3ad2feb0$@com> <6dbe3c380911201301x114e699dsa7d213435a037e24@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: > You're saying that's a static electricity hazard? ?How is that? Yes. Dry rapid moving air can build up charges. This is why aircraft often have dischargers - otherwise the ground crew can be in for a surprise. -- Will From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Nov 20 16:05:26 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 17:05:26 -0500 Subject: Indianapolis In-Reply-To: <88B1C396-06F7-42C0-B27B-8D003EE980D0@mac.com> References: <88B1C396-06F7-42C0-B27B-8D003EE980D0@mac.com> Message-ID: I'll be in Indianapolis from the 27th through the 29th (Friday-Sunday). Does that overlap with your business trip? -ethan On 11/20/09, Roger Pugh wrote: > Hi to all across the pond. > > > Are there any places/stores of interest to our hobby in > Indianapolis, or is it a bit of a black hole? > > I am on a business trip there next week from the UK anything worth > seeing?? > > Roger > From cclist at sydex.com Fri Nov 20 16:19:33 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 14:19:33 -0800 Subject: Water damage In-Reply-To: References: <51341.202.124.88.116.1258735757.squirrel@webmail4.pair.com>, <6dbe3c380911201301x114e699dsa7d213435a037e24@mail.gmail.com>, Message-ID: <4B06A575.1324.1078741@cclist.sydex.com> Pressure washing in Freon TF might do the trick--or get you arrested. How about a half-and-half mixture of ethanol and distilled water? The mixture should dry faster than water alone, although getting under chips is going to be a problem no matter what you use. --Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Nov 20 16:46:22 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 14:46:22 -0800 (PST) Subject: Other disk and drive types (Was: Hard-sector discs -- how many In-Reply-To: <4B0664BF.6090209@philpem.me.uk> References: , <4B05E92D.4020003@philpem.me.uk> <4B0586AF.20356.218ABD1@cclist.sydex.com> <20091119180647.P56116@shell.lmi.net> <4B0664BF.6090209@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <20091120143512.B95497@shell.lmi.net> > > 3" (Amdek, Amstrad, etc.) > > 3.25" (Dysan) > > are hard to distinguish from 5.25" On Fri, 20 Nov 2009, Philip Pemberton wrote: > If you can find me a drive and a pinout, I'll tell you :) I've got the drives, but no published pinouts. The pinout is essentially identical to conventional 5.25" drives. ("SA400"?) I always used them on unmodified PC cabling. > > 2.8M "ED" "vertical recording" 3.5" 360 RPM, 1000K bits per second > I've got one of these drives somewhere.. an IBM thing with no pinout or > documentation. I know it's Shugart interface with a few extra pins added > (the ribbon cable provides both power and data IIRC). Will your circuitry be able to handle the doubled data transfer rate? I think that the first 34 pins are the same. I only have a few of those drives, and they are many archeological layers deep. The pinout of the ones that IBM used on the PS/2s (with the 6 extra pins for power) might be in the AT "Options and Adapters" Tech Ref -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cclist at sydex.com Fri Nov 20 16:56:23 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 14:56:23 -0800 Subject: Other disk and drive types (Was: Hard-sector discs -- how many In-Reply-To: <20091120143512.B95497@shell.lmi.net> References: , <4B0664BF.6090209@philpem.me.uk>, <20091120143512.B95497@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4B06AE17.12686.12941F6@cclist.sydex.com> On 20 Nov 2009 at 14:46, Fred Cisin wrote: > Will your circuitry be able to handle the doubled data transfer rate? > I think that the first 34 pins are the same. I only have a few of > those drives, and they are many archeological layers deep. The > pinout of the ones that IBM used on the PS/2s (with the 6 extra pins > for power) might be in the AT "Options and Adapters" Tech Ref Just find a Teac FD-235J. It had a pile of jumpers on it, one of which allowed for "media select" on density. Finding DSED media might be an issue. Finding *good* DSED media, harder still. --Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Nov 20 16:27:48 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 22:27:48 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Non-fake Apple 1 on ebay In-Reply-To: <20091119144059.U51294@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Nov 19, 9 02:51:31 pm Message-ID: > > Isn't that a very biased list too? What about all the larger machines? > > What about Xerox/3 Rivers? What about DEC and HP (I still think the 9830 > > doesn't get the attention it deserves). What about larger IBM machines? > > What about non-US micros (Acorn, for example). And so on (No, I know I am > > missing stuff out too). > > I was specifically listing machines that were VERY similar to the ones > that get covered, but never get mentioned by the "historians" of mass > media, rather than supplying a corrected list. I specifically mentioned the HP9830 becasue it _is_ IMHO similar to many early micros. A rough spec : -- All-in-one desktop machine, just plug into the mains and go -- Built-in QWERTY keyboard, 1-line (upper case) alphanumeic display and digital cassette drive -- Built-in ROM BASIC.. OK, the built-in BASIC was pretty minimal, there weren't even stirng variables, for example, but it was still BASIC. You turned on the machine and started programming -- Plug-in ROM modules to extend the BASIC (string variables/operations, matris operations, plotter cotnrol, extended I/O are the ones I have in my machine) -- 16-bit bit-serial proecessor -- 2K words to 8K words of RAM (IIRC). A word is 16 bits. -- Built-in interface to a thermal 80-column printer -- And slots for 4 more interface modules to intruments, paper tape, other printers, modem, etc. I have the 8-bit parallel I/O, BCD input (to link to DVMs, etc), serial printer (half-duplex RS232), modem (bit-banged RS232, advanced modem (a hardware RS232 interface handling async and sync modes) and another parallel printer interface. There wrre many others. And that was in early 1973. OK, it was called a 'calculator' but IMHO that was for marketting rasons. It's a computer, surely. And it is, IMHO, a reasonable candidate for 'first personal computer' > I am NOT going to attempt to create an exhaustive, nor thorough, list so > assume that lack of inclusion of your favorites is not intended to > diminish their importance. Each of us KNOWS what the most important and > significant machine was. So I? I am not sure I do.... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Nov 20 16:35:30 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 22:35:30 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Non-fake Apple 1 on ebay In-Reply-To: <4B05CE2E.9080205@gmail.com> from "Jules Richardson" at Nov 19, 9 05:01:02 pm Message-ID: > I think it has its place, personally I'm not disputing that - I'm just trying Oh, it certainly has a place in the history of computing. I can't disagree with that. It doesn;'t mean I have to want one :-) > to get my head around where this business of it being worth quite so much > hails from. It's 'worth' that amount of money because somebody will pay that for it. That's the only reason. I've seen reports of antique clocks selling for a lot more than that (horology is another of my interests). Yes, they are beautiful pieces of machineru, and I'd love one. But realisitcally, a 5 quid quartx clock is going to be a much better timekeeper. So why are the antiques so valuable? Beacuse somebody will pay that. And I've already mentioned postage stamps. And there must be many other 'collectables' I seem to rememebr you can buy a replica Apple 1 for considerably less money (although still a significant sum). Personally, I'd be as happy with that as with an origianl, becuase it does the same thingsi n the same way, I can connect my 'scope or logic analyser to it and see the same waveforms, and so on. Of course I do accept an original has more 'collector cvalue' and would be really unhappy if I'd paid for an original and ended up witha copy. > > I acutally have an MK14, I have no idea what it's worth. I must get round > > to repairing it (the unheatsinked -- thanks Sinclair! -- 7805 went dead > > short and wiped out many of the chips. Fortuanely the monitor ROMs > > survived, and I do have a replacement SC/MP somehwere). It was my first > > computer, which means it has some sentimental value to me, but that's > > about the only reason I keep it. The hardware design is not pleasant > > (It's pretty obvious from the circuit diagram that the display latches > > should be 74175s, but some idiot oredered 74157s by misatake and they > > were kludged in (a mux with one input tied to the output will make a > > transparent latch -- most of the time) > > Yes, another not-very-good design, although I'd still quite like one. I used Did Sinclair ever market wat we'd call a 'good design'? If so, I can't think of it... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Nov 20 16:46:05 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 22:46:05 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Hard-sector discs -- how many sectors? In-Reply-To: <4B05E92D.4020003@philpem.me.uk> from "Philip Pemberton" at Nov 20, 9 00:56:13 am Message-ID: > > Tony Duell wrote: > > I hope you're handling 8" disks. I have some 32 sector hard-sectoed 8" > > floppies (blank, so I have no idea what machine they were used in) > > It should work with anything that has a 34-pin Shugart interface. It The 8" drive has a 50 pin interface connector, of course, but most of the signals are the same as the SA400 interface. The main differences (from what I rememer) are that the 8" drice may separate index and sector pulses for hard sectored disks, it may have an interal data separator for single-density disks, and it will have a TG43 input to reduce write current on ther inner cyliders. The first 2 things can be jumpered out (so you cna then treat it like a 5.25" drive, the last is only a problem if you're writing. It would eb worht adding a signal for this, actually, if you support dumpling the images back to the physical disks. > supports the pseudo-Shugart interface PCs use (including the twisted > wire), too. > > The current "Must Have" format support list is: > - 8-inch: hard and soft-sector (untested, I don't have a drive or discs) > - 5.25-inch: hard and soft-sector (I have a 96tpi double-sided drive > and soft-sector discs, but no hard-sector ones; a 48tpi double-sided > drive might also be worth testing) > - 3.5-inch: soft-sector. Do hard-sector 3.5" discs even exist? Most > of the drives I've looked at use the position of the spindle motor to > derive the index signal, so I'm guessing "no". The 3.5" disk doersn't have an index hole in the sense that the other floppies do. You can't have a 'hard sectored blank disk', for this reason. I suppose it would be _possile_ to make a drive that produced multiple index/sector pulses per vevolution, but I've never seen one. You can alos support 3" drives/disks. The Hitachi drives have a standard 34 pin SA400 interface, the ones that Amstrad used have a 26 pin connector (IIRC) with the same signals on it. 3" disks do have an index hole, the sensor is a light barrier there, not a signal on the spindle motor, but I've never seen or heard of hard sectored disks. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Nov 20 16:54:39 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 22:54:39 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Other disk and drive types (Was: Hard-sector discs -- how many In-Reply-To: <20091119180647.P56116@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Nov 19, 9 06:37:22 pm Message-ID: > Some formats, such as Intertec Superbrain had the data bits inverted > relative to the header bits IIRC Western Digial made disk controller chips with normal and inverted data buses (that was, IIRC, the difference between a 1791 nad a 1793, for example). And Intertec (?) used an inverted-bus one without an external inverting bus buffer.... > Some, such as TRS80, got weird with their Data Address Marks Only on the directory cylinder of Model 1 TRS-DOS and clones AFAIK. When they went to double density, the had to sue standard DAMs since that's all the 179x chips could do. ANd IIRC LDOS used standard DAMs even on Model 1 single-density systems. > . . . and then, there are some obscure ones, and even some unusual ones. Soeheter I have an Epson drive unit. It looks a it like the well-knwon TF20, but it isn't. It's something like a BM5. The host interface is a custom parallel one (possibly to a card that pluged into a QX10 or something). The internal controller board contains a Z80A and a _hard disk_ controller chip, the interface to the 5.25" drive is a 34 wasy and a 20 way ribbon cable. Yes, it's ST412 or similar. I have no idea what sort of floppies it uses. -tony From cclist at sydex.com Fri Nov 20 17:16:38 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 15:16:38 -0800 Subject: Unknown IBM S/360s In-Reply-To: <424566.88858.qm@web110402.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: , <424566.88858.qm@web110402.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4B06B2D6.7064.13BC9CC@cclist.sydex.com> On 20 Nov 2009 at 13:04, Russ Bartlett wrote: > Check out Youtube for an interesting IBM System/3 commercial.? > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vRS3eXQ9gGY (in two parts this is part > one) Does anyone know who did the narration for the IBM commercials? My memory told me that it was Alexander Scourby, but that's not his voice, is it? Thanks, Chuck From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Fri Nov 20 17:22:54 2009 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 23:22:54 +0000 Subject: Other disk and drive types (Was: Hard-sector discs -- how many In-Reply-To: <20091120143512.B95497@shell.lmi.net> References: , <4B05E92D.4020003@philpem.me.uk> <4B0586AF.20356.218ABD1@cclist.sydex.com> <20091119180647.P56116@shell.lmi.net> <4B0664BF.6090209@philpem.me.uk> <20091120143512.B95497@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4B0724CE.8040209@philpem.me.uk> Fred Cisin wrote: > Will your circuitry be able to handle the doubled data transfer rate? The acquisition clock rate is 40MHz. That means every clock tick in the acquired timing data represents 25 nanoseconds. My current torture-test is to feed it a 10MHz "read data" signal, which it's handling fine. It's actually having more trouble with the slower bit rates because there are one or two little issues with the pseudo-RLE compression. I seem to recall mentioning that it'll read MFM hard drives, which typically have a 5Mbps data rate. 1Mbps should not be an issue. You'll have more trouble soldering the adapter cable together than you will getting a valid data readback! > I think that the first 34 pins are the same. I only have a few of those > drives, and they are many archeological layers deep. The pinout of the > ones that IBM used on the PS/2s (with the 6 extra pins for power) might be > in the AT "Options and Adapters" Tech Ref Knowing IBM, I wouldn't be surprised. I think my 2.88 drive is buried in a box somewhere (it was "liberated" from a dead PS/2 of some description) but I don't have any discs for it. -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Fri Nov 20 17:25:30 2009 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 23:25:30 +0000 Subject: Other disk and drive types (Was: Hard-sector discs -- how many In-Reply-To: <4B06AE17.12686.12941F6@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4B0664BF.6090209@philpem.me.uk>, <20091120143512.B95497@shell.lmi.net> <4B06AE17.12686.12941F6@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4B07256A.9010108@philpem.me.uk> Chuck Guzis wrote: > Just find a Teac FD-235J. It had a pile of jumpers on it, one of > which allowed for "media select" on density. Finding DSED media > might be an issue. Finding *good* DSED media, harder still. Isn't the 235J a SCSI device, i.e. an "intelligent" drive that does basically everything for you, and places restrictions on how you can actually format and use the disc? -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From ragooman at comcast.net Fri Nov 20 17:39:50 2009 From: ragooman at comcast.net (Dan Roganti) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 18:39:50 -0500 Subject: 6502 trivia (was Re: Non-fake Apple 1 on ebay) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B0728C6.5000406@comcast.net> Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 11/20/09, Brian Lanning wrote: > >> On Fri, Nov 20, 2009 at 10:16 AM, Al Kossow wrote: >> >> >>> Chuck Peddle told me a couple of months ago that the 6502 was never >>> intended to be a general-purpose microprocessor, it was designed to >>> be a replacement for hard-wired logic. >>> > > Well it certainly exceeded those expectations! > What about the story of the first revision, the 6501, which was pin compatible with the Motorola 6800(being that they were ex-MOT people) but offered more addressing modes. From what I read, this was their intention in order to gain a foothold in the market Although it wasn't software compatible from what I understand--so I'm not sure how they expected to gain any advantage. Then Motorola sued them in court and won, and this resulted in them making the 6502. =Dan -- http://www2.applegate.org/~ragooman/ http://www.midatlanticretro.org/ From cclist at sydex.com Fri Nov 20 18:15:05 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 16:15:05 -0800 Subject: Other disk and drive types (Was: Hard-sector discs -- how many In-Reply-To: <4B07256A.9010108@philpem.me.uk> References: , <4B06AE17.12686.12941F6@cclist.sydex.com>, <4B07256A.9010108@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4B06C089.18233.1714D52@cclist.sydex.com> On 20 Nov 2009 at 23:25, Philip Pemberton wrote: > Isn't the 235J a SCSI device, i.e. an "intelligent" drive that does > basically everything for you, and places restrictions on how you can > actually format and use the disc? Not the 235J that I have--plain old 34-pin legacy connections. Here's a product manual excerpt: http://arcarc.xmission.com/archive/Test%20Equipment/Fluke/PDFs/9100_Fi xture/Floppy%20Drives/3fd0010a.pdf Are you certain that you're not thinking of the FD235HS or the FD235JS SCSI drives? (basically a non-S drive with Teac's adapter bolted on). --Chuck From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Fri Nov 20 18:22:42 2009 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2009 00:22:42 +0000 Subject: Hard-sector discs -- how many sectors? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B0732D2.4020706@philpem.me.uk> Tony Duell wrote: > The 8" drive has a 50 pin interface connector, of course, but most of the > signals are the same as the SA400 interface. The main differences (from > what I rememer) are that the 8" drice may separate index and sector > pulses for hard sectored disks, it may have an interal data separator for > single-density disks, and it will have a TG43 input to reduce write > current on ther inner cyliders. !REDWC, pin 2. I've made pin 2 an I/O on my analyser -- it can either be read (pullup enabled), floating, or pulled low. Thus, you can poll the disc's type (if REDWC is used as a "high density" output), or apply density selection, or use it to drive TG43, depending on what the drive requires. > The 3.5" disk doersn't have an index hole in the sense that the other > floppies do. You can't have a 'hard sectored blank disk', for this > reason. I suppose it would be _possile_ to make a drive that produced > multiple index/sector pulses per vevolution, but I've never seen one. That's effectively the question I was asking -- the discs don't support it, so did anyone bodge a PLL onto a drive to do it? It does look like someone's had a go at something similar to what I was thinking of: http://www.lesbird.com/sebhc/storage/storage.html Look under the heading "Hard Sector Floppy Emulator". > You can alos support 3" drives/disks. The Hitachi drives have a standard > 34 pin SA400 interface, the ones that Amstrad used have a 26 pin > connector (IIRC) with the same signals on it. 3" disks do have an index > hole, the sensor is a light barrier there, not a signal on the spindle > motor, but I've never seen or heard of hard sectored disks. So more or less the same technology as a 5.25" disc then -- a ~5mm hole in the jacket, a ~1mm pinhole in the disc, and an optosensor in the drive. -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Fri Nov 20 18:24:14 2009 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2009 00:24:14 +0000 Subject: Other disk and drive types (Was: Hard-sector discs -- how many In-Reply-To: <4B06C089.18233.1714D52@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4B06AE17.12686.12941F6@cclist.sydex.com>, <4B07256A.9010108@philpem.me.uk> <4B06C089.18233.1714D52@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4B07332E.9050005@philpem.me.uk> Chuck Guzis wrote: > Are you certain that you're not thinking of the FD235HS or the > FD235JS SCSI drives? (basically a non-S drive with Teac's adapter > bolted on). I just did a quick Google search for "FD235J" (or it might have been "FD-235J"), and all the hits I got back were of the form "TEAC FD235J SCSI DRIVE". I wasn't aware that there were two different versions... -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From arcbe2001 at yahoo.com Fri Nov 20 19:07:00 2009 From: arcbe2001 at yahoo.com (Russ Bartlett) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 17:07:00 -0800 (PST) Subject: Unknown IBM S/360s In-Reply-To: <4B06B2D6.7064.13BC9CC@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <211092.82000.qm@web110413.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> I'm not sure but if you go to http://www.ibmsystem3.nl/hist.html and follow the link to the original development team picture.? I recall that RPG II people were in high demand.? I was a 360 BAL(Assembler)? and COBOL (D & F) person.??? Russ --- On Fri, 11/20/09, Chuck Guzis wrote: From: Chuck Guzis Subject: Re: Unknown IBM S/360s To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Date: Friday, November 20, 2009, 6:16 PM On 20 Nov 2009 at 13:04, Russ Bartlett wrote: > Check out Youtube for an interesting IBM System/3 commercial.? > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vRS3eXQ9gGY (in two parts this is part > one) Does anyone know who did the narration for the IBM commercials?? My memory told me that it was Alexander Scourby, but that's not his voice, is it? Thanks, Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Nov 20 19:13:01 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 17:13:01 -0800 (PST) Subject: Non-fake Apple 1 on ebay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20091120171125.F95497@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 20 Nov 2009, Tony Duell wrote: > I specifically mentioned the HP9830 becasue it _is_ IMHO similar to many > early micros. A rough spec : > > -- All-in-one desktop machine, just plug into the mains and go > -- Built-in QWERTY keyboard, 1-line (upper case) alphanumeic display and > digital cassette drive > -- Built-in ROM BASIC.. OK, the built-in BASIC was pretty minimal, there > weren't even stirng variables, for example, but it was still BASIC. You > turned on the machine and started programming > -- Plug-in ROM modules to extend the BASIC (string variables/operations, > matris operations, plotter cotnrol, extended I/O are the ones I have in > my machine) > -- 16-bit bit-serial proecessor > -- 2K words to 8K words of RAM (IIRC). A word is 16 bits. > -- Built-in interface to a thermal 80-column printer > -- And slots for 4 more interface modules to intruments, paper tape, > other printers, modem, etc. I have the 8-bit parallel I/O, BCD input (to > link to DVMs, etc), serial printer (half-duplex RS232), modem (bit-banged > RS232, advanced modem (a hardware RS232 interface handling async and sync > modes) and another parallel printer interface. There wrre many others. > And that was in early 1973. OK, it was called a 'calculator' but IMHO > that was for marketting rasons. It's a computer, surely. And it is, IMHO, > a reasonable candidate for 'first personal computer' > > > I am NOT going to attempt to create an exhaustive, nor thorough, list so > > assume that lack of inclusion of your favorites is not intended to > > diminish their importance. Each of us KNOWS what the most important and > > significant machine was. > > So I? I am not sure I do.... Although you did just make a reasonably good case for the HP9830 :-) -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Nov 20 19:24:02 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 17:24:02 -0800 (PST) Subject: Hard-sector discs -- how many sectors? In-Reply-To: <4B0732D2.4020706@philpem.me.uk> References: <4B0732D2.4020706@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <20091120171918.X95497@shell.lmi.net> On Sat, 21 Nov 2009, Philip Pemberton wrote: > > The 3.5" disk doersn't have an index hole in the sense that the other > > floppies do. You can't have a 'hard sectored blank disk', for this > > reason. I suppose it would be _possile_ to make a drive that produced > > multiple index/sector pulses per vevolution, but I've never seen one. > > That's effectively the question I was asking -- the discs don't support > it, so did anyone bodge a PLL onto a drive to do it? Has anybody bothered to checkout the innards of the first Tandy "Portable Disk Drive" (for the Model 100)? It has been referred to as having "hard sectors", but uses an ordinary 3.5" floppy. From rivie at ridgenet.net Fri Nov 20 20:14:38 2009 From: rivie at ridgenet.net (Roger Ivie) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 18:14:38 -0800 (PST) Subject: 6502 trivia (was Re: Non-fake Apple 1 on ebay) In-Reply-To: <4B0728C6.5000406@comcast.net> References: <4B0728C6.5000406@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Fri, Nov 20, 2009 at 10:16 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > Chuck Peddle told me a couple of months ago that the 6502 was never > intended to be a general-purpose microprocessor, it was designed to > be a replacement for hard-wired logic. Hmm. Ken Olsen once told me the same thing about the PDP-5. Except for the "micro" bit, of course. -- roger ivie rivie at ridgenet.net From cclist at sydex.com Fri Nov 20 20:17:43 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 18:17:43 -0800 Subject: Unknown IBM S/360s In-Reply-To: <211092.82000.qm@web110413.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <4B06B2D6.7064.13BC9CC@cclist.sydex.com>, <211092.82000.qm@web110413.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4B06DD47.22831.1E192A7@cclist.sydex.com> On 20 Nov 2009 at 17:07, Russ Bartlett wrote: > I'm not sure but if you go to http://www.ibmsystem3.nl/hist.html and > follow the link to the original development team picture.? I recall > that RPG II people were in high demand.? I was a 360 BAL(Assembler)? > and COBOL (D & F) person.??? Doing a little digging, I believe the narrator is Peter A. Thomas (Sr.); born in 1924 and still very much around. At least, that's what my ears tell me. Here's a recent narration of his: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KU71QQD-AL8 I think Alexander Scourby did the narrations for Bell Telephone/AT&T. He passed away in 1985. --Chuck From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri Nov 20 21:39:16 2009 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 19:39:16 -0800 (PST) Subject: Other disk and drive types (Was: Hard-sector discs -- how many In-Reply-To: <4B06AE17.12686.12941F6@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4B0664BF.6090209@philpem.me.uk>, <20091120143512.B95497@shell.lmi.net> <4B06AE17.12686.12941F6@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > Just find a Teac FD-235J. It had a pile of jumpers on it, one of > which allowed for "media select" on density. Finding DSED media > might be an issue. Finding *good* DSED media, harder still. > I've had very good luck with Athana DSDD 3.5" media when used in my Amiga and 1581 drives. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Nov 20 21:53:16 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 19:53:16 -0800 (PST) Subject: Other disk and drive types (Was: Hard-sector discs -- how many In-Reply-To: References: , <4B0664BF.6090209@philpem.me.uk>, <20091120143512.B95497@shell.lmi.net> <4B06AE17.12686.12941F6@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20091120194716.E95497@shell.lmi.net> > > which allowed for "media select" on density. Finding DSED media > > might be an issue. Finding *good* DSED media, harder still. On Fri, 20 Nov 2009, Gene Buckle wrote: > I've had very good luck with Athana DSDD 3.5" media when used in my Amiga > and 1581 drives. ED media is a different chemical composition. In addition to coercivity differences (600 for "DSDD", about 730 for "DSHD"), ED apparently does vertical recording on Barrium-Ferrite? media, with a 1000K bits per second data transfer rate, resulting in 2.8M (called "2.88M" by IBM, called "4M" by Next (unformatted capacity)) My experience with PS/2 "2.88", and MicroSolutions "Backpack 2.88" were somewhat lower reliability than conventional 1.4M storage. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cclist at sydex.com Fri Nov 20 22:23:25 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 20:23:25 -0800 Subject: Other disk and drive types (Was: Hard-sector discs -- how many In-Reply-To: References: , <4B06AE17.12686.12941F6@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4B06FABD.27985.254A824@cclist.sydex.com> On 20 Nov 2009 at 19:39, Gene Buckle wrote: > I've had very good luck with Athana DSDD 3.5" media when used in my > Amiga and 1581 drives. As Fred says, different animal. The box of 3M DSED sitting in front of me proudly proclaims "Barium Ferrite" and "Extra High Density". The density indicator aperture is located about 5/8" from the top of the jacket, as oppsed to about 3/8" for the aperture on a DSHD disk. Like DSHD, DSED was very expensive when it first came out. I think I paid about the same for my first box of HD diskettes (Fuji and about $45) as I did for my ED. Curiously, this is also about what I paid for a box of Dysan 8" floppies. Must be one of those universal constants. I don't recall pricing for DS2D media when it was new. --Chuck From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri Nov 20 22:42:10 2009 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 20:42:10 -0800 (PST) Subject: Other disk and drive types (Was: Hard-sector discs -- how many In-Reply-To: <20091120194716.E95497@shell.lmi.net> References: , <4B0664BF.6090209@philpem.me.uk>, <20091120143512.B95497@shell.lmi.net> <4B06AE17.12686.12941F6@cclist.sydex.com> <20091120194716.E95497@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 20 Nov 2009, Fred Cisin wrote: >>> which allowed for "media select" on density. Finding DSED media >>> might be an issue. Finding *good* DSED media, harder still. > > On Fri, 20 Nov 2009, Gene Buckle wrote: >> I've had very good luck with Athana DSDD 3.5" media when used in my Amiga >> and 1581 drives. > > ED media is a different chemical composition. In addition to coercivity > differences (600 for "DSDD", about 730 for "DSHD"), ED apparently does > vertical recording on Barrium-Ferrite? media, with a 1000K bits per second > data transfer rate, resulting in 2.8M (called "2.88M" by IBM, called "4M" > by Next (unformatted capacity)) > > My experience with PS/2 "2.88", and MicroSolutions "Backpack 2.88" were > somewhat lower reliability than conventional 1.4M storage. > Did I miss something? :) Neither my Amiga nor the 1581 uses ED media. Are you possibly referring to the CMD FD4000 drive? it was for the Commodore IEC bus and was an ED mech if memory serves. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri Nov 20 22:43:10 2009 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 20:43:10 -0800 (PST) Subject: Other disk and drive types (Was: Hard-sector discs -- how many In-Reply-To: <4B06FABD.27985.254A824@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4B06AE17.12686.12941F6@cclist.sydex.com>, <4B06FABD.27985.254A824@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 20 Nov 2009, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 20 Nov 2009 at 19:39, Gene Buckle wrote: > >> I've had very good luck with Athana DSDD 3.5" media when used in my >> Amiga and 1581 drives. > > As Fred says, different animal. The box of 3M DSED sitting in front ...and NOW I found my mistake. I misread the original message as referring to "DSDD" and not "DSED". My apologies. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From dkelvey at hotmail.com Fri Nov 20 22:45:01 2009 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 20:45:01 -0800 Subject: Other disk and drive types (Was: Hard-sector discs -- how many In-Reply-To: <4B06FABD.27985.254A824@cclist.sydex.com> References: , , <4B06AE17.12686.12941F6@cclist.sydex.com>, , , <4B06FABD.27985.254A824@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: Hi The Canon Cat has a 3.5 that is essencially a 720K with only one head. The connector is a ribbon cable with a 20 pin IDC. Power and signals on this one cable. The Cat uses some type of GCR. The signals all corelate to SA400 signals, including Drive Ready. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Windows 7: I wanted simpler, now it's simpler. I'm a rock star. http://www.microsoft.com/Windows/windows-7/default.aspx?h=myidea?ocid=PID24727::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WWL_WIN_myidea:112009 From eric at brouhaha.com Sat Nov 21 01:58:58 2009 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 23:58:58 -0800 Subject: IC DEC8881 In-Reply-To: <4B002D45.200.1CA606B@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4B008F68.3090604@hachti.de> <4B002D45.200.1CA606B@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4B079DC2.2000608@brouhaha.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > Other than a different pinout, how does this differ from a plain old > 7438? > Many of the DEC bus driver/receiver/transceiver chips were binned (selected) for specs beyond what the manufacturer guaranteed for standard parts. One of the characteristics they binned for was low leakage current, which was essential on large systems. Eric From geoffr at zipcon.net Sat Nov 21 02:03:24 2009 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoffrey Reed) Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2009 00:03:24 -0800 Subject: Non-fake Apple 1 on ebay In-Reply-To: <4B05D89F.26876.358BB5D@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On 11/19/09 11:45 PM, "Chuck Guzis" wrote: > On 20 Nov 2009 at 1:21, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > >> In every picture I've seen, the Apple I's board has been >> wave-soldered. > > I recall that there was some chatter about being able to buy the bare > PCB, but it never happened as far as I knew. I only saw the > completed boards. With only 4K of memory, I wasn't interested--I > already had my MITS box with 8K and several of my friends had IMSAIs. > Discussion at the time in my circle usually centered around how much > better constructed the IMSAI box was than the MITS. I couldn't > argue. Within about a year, I had an IMSAI, then migrated to an > Integrand box. But I still have the lowly and dusty Altair sitting > on a shelf... > > The 6502 to me always seemed to be a little "brain dead" compared to > the 8080. But that was a subject then of much debate. > > I'm still trying to remember who, about that time, brought out a 6502 > S100 board. Was it Solid State Music? > > --Chuck I miss my altair 8800. And my northstar horizon (think it was) and my morrow MDIII and..... -sigh- From geoffr at zipcon.net Sat Nov 21 02:38:20 2009 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoffrey Reed) Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2009 00:38:20 -0800 Subject: Water damage In-Reply-To: <001801ca6a21$68f0ff90$3ad2feb0$@com> Message-ID: On 11/20/09 12:38 PM, "Bob Armstrong" wrote: > On Fri, Nov 20, 2009 at 11:11 AM, Alexandre Souza > wrote: > >> Put it to dry ON THE SUN > > Compressed air is the thing for drying boards after they're washed. Not > canned air - you'll go broke buying those cans - but a real air compressor > and a "blow gun" nozzle. Just blow all the water down to one corner of the > board and then off the edge. It even gets the water out from underneath > components and from inside connector and socket pins. I routinely wash new > boards after I've assembled them to remove solder flux, and you can > completely dry a board in a couple of minutes this way. > > Bob > > I have a moisture absorber on one of my blowguns for computer use :) eventually I will be hooking up a water seperator/trap also. From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Sat Nov 21 04:19:34 2009 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2009 11:19:34 +0100 (CET) Subject: Non-fake Apple 1 on ebay In-Reply-To: <4B06E442.86FAE760@cs.ubc.ca> References: <4B049FD2.8050300@comcast.net>, <4B069407.8050609@gmail.com>, <4B06C0D9.7000600@bitsavers.org> <4B06694F.11908.1C938D@cclist.sydex.com> <4B06E442.86FAE760@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: On Fri, 20 Nov 2009, Brent Hilpert wrote: > The Osborne book lists 9 variants: > 65x2 x=0|1 > 65x3 > 65x4 > 65x5 > 6506 And there's the 6500 (yes, '00'). It's a 40 pin microcontroller, and it was used eg. on Seagate ST-225 drives. Christian From jos.dreesen at bluewin.ch Fri Nov 20 08:41:22 2009 From: jos.dreesen at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 15:41:22 +0100 Subject: Kenbak PCB Message-ID: <4B06AA92.5090203@bluewin.ch> There have been various successful attempts at recreating the Kenbak. If anyone has a spare PCB for sale, I'd be interested. Jos Dreesen From csquared3 at tx.rr.com Fri Nov 20 09:54:04 2009 From: csquared3 at tx.rr.com (CSquared) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 09:54:04 -0600 Subject: BIT 483 / was Re: Non-fake Apple 1 on ebay In-Reply-To: <4B04E84D.C8C6A4F2@cs.ubc.ca> References: , <4B047D0A.5070608@gmail.com> <4B04E84D.C8C6A4F2@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <4B06BB9C.7080205@tx.rr.com> Brent Hilpert wrote: >> A fellow on the VCForum found a BIT 483. Now that is >> at least as rare as the A1. I have a Nicolet 1080 that I only know >> of 5 total. There may be more but they are not likely in >> another collectors hands without them contacting me or Sellam. > > I was going to ask about the BIT 483, but I see you and Chuck are already on > top of it: > > http://www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum/showthread.php?p=120353 > > I love hearing about these little-known machines. Wish there was picture of the > internals. Anybody know what sort of market these things found?, or more about > the company origins/destiny? > That link is quite interesting, especially the pictures. From the way the front panel is laid out, I would assume values are stated in octal rather than hex. The bits on the panel seem to have a 2-3-3 pattern so hex FF would be thought of as octal 377. This appears to be true of the 2 address bytes as well. I think this means that for example address hex FFFF would be represented as 377,377. That would take some real mental gymnastics to deal with if one was entering a short program or debugging manually. Maybe you can stay under 000,377 for short programs and avoid that problem. Not having read any of the docs I don't know if that is possible. My old Microdata 820 has a 4-4-4-4 front panel pattern which is rather easier to deal with I think. Of course you realize this discussion has me wanting to drag it out of the garage and get it going again. :) Later, Charlie C. From jws at jwsss.com Fri Nov 20 13:13:23 2009 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 11:13:23 -0800 Subject: Water damage In-Reply-To: <4B06E083.4080909@attglobal.net> References: <51341.202.124.88.116.1258735757.squirrel@webmail4.pair.com>, <6dbe3c380911200906j577214a6t43466209c319ee95@mail.gmail.com>, <4a15f9590911200911k395bc064nd6a3719c009e9ffa@mail.gmail.com> <4B06E083.4080909@attglobal.net> Message-ID: <4B06EA53.2000109@jwsss.com> I was looking at the isopropyl container that I have and noticed that it is a 50/50 mix of alcohol and water. I wonder if you can get a 100% (or as near as possible) w/o going to a chemical supply house. I recently got a small vial of 100% reagent from a lab that seems to leave less gunge when I use it for what you are referring to below, though I was cleaning optics, and the residue problem is way more significant there. Jim Barry L. Kline wrote: > Dan Gahlinger wrote: > >> at least use distilled water? >> > > I use distilled water for a rinse after cleaning, then Isopropyl alcohol > to remove the water. > > Barry > > > From pinball at telus.net Sat Nov 21 01:43:38 2009 From: pinball at telus.net (John Robertson) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 23:43:38 -0800 Subject: Water damage In-Reply-To: <51341.202.124.88.116.1258735757.squirrel@webmail4.pair.com> References: <51341.202.124.88.116.1258735757.squirrel@webmail4.pair.com> Message-ID: <4B079A2A.30704@telus.net> Dave Taylor wrote: > Hi all, > > First post here. Long story short, I recently rescued a friend of mine's > Commodore equipment after he'd suffered a fire in his apartment. None of > it caught on fire but some copped a direct hit from a fire hose and was > sitting there for 4 days while I went through the bureaucracy of gaining > access to the place (he's in hospital at the moment but will recover, for > the record). > > While this gear isn't particularly uncommon (although the Amiga stuff > might be quite expensive to replace), I'd like to rescue it for him even > if it's just for morale purposes. > > Anyway, rusty RF shields have leaked rusty water all over the PCBs and I > really don't know how to deal with it. So far, I've used dry cotton > buds/q-tips to clean off anything visible, but I'd like to know what > people recommend for cleaning the boards properly. > > I was thinking isopropyl alcohol - I've previously used it for leaked > caps, but I'm all out right now. Is methylated spirits a bad > substitution? > > Speaking of leaked caps, it looks like the water has caused a lot of caps > to leak as well - I've never seen leaking caps in the act, it's always > been dry "after the event" type damage. If there's anything worth noting > about this, that'd be great to know too. > > Thanks for any advice! > > Cheers, > > Dave. > > What do you mean by "leaked caps"? I've not seen water cause caps to do anything. Are you sure that is not some glue put on the capacitors by the manufacturer to secure them to the PCB? This is not uncommon... What about doing what some board manufacturers do - run the boards through the dishwasher. I do not know what soap (if any) they use, but it has been discussed many times on the 'net and you should be able to find ample valid references to help you decide if you want to try it. John :-#)# -- John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9 Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, VideoGames) www.flippers.com "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out" From shumaker at att.net Sat Nov 21 08:31:00 2009 From: shumaker at att.net (steve shumaker) Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2009 09:31:00 -0500 Subject: Cromemco Z-2 and IMSAI 8080 at Purdue In-Reply-To: References: <4B051263.17309.5261F7@cclist.sydex.com>, <4B0585D8.9010009@snarc.net>, <4B0682C6.6020409@comcast.net> Message-ID: <4B07F9A4.3090307@att.net> Qas this a common mod? Didn't the Imsai have a header connector on the CPU board for the front panel? steve dwight elvey wrote: > > ---------------------------------------- > >> Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 06:51:34 -0500 >> From: ragooman at comcast.net >> To: >> Subject: Re: Cromemco Z-2 and IMSAI 8080 at Purdue >> >> Evan Koblentz wrote: >> >>>> Someone over at VCF is worried that these will hit the dumpster. I >>>> think that's unlikely, but it might be worth looking into. >>>> >>>> http://vintage-computer.com/vcforum/showthread.php?p=120672 >>>> >>>> --Chuck >>>> >>>> >>> I forwarded the message to Pat Finnegan (just in case) .... >>> >> Hi, >> >> I'm located in Pittsburgh and would like to rescue these machines. I can >> arrange pickup at their earliest convenience. >> >> =Dan >> >> > > Hi > I thought I should mention. When I looked at the picture, > it looked like it was just an IMSAI front panel. It looked > like it had a cable to tie to the Cromemco. > Dwight > _________________________________________________________________ > Hotmail: Trusted email with Microsoft's powerful SPAM protection. > http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/177141664/direct/01/ > http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/177141664/direct/01/ > > From ript at disasterarea.net Sat Nov 21 08:31:27 2009 From: ript at disasterarea.net (Dave Taylor) Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2009 01:31:27 +1100 (EST) Subject: Water damage In-Reply-To: <4B079A2A.30704@telus.net> References: <51341.202.124.88.116.1258735757.squirrel@webmail4.pair.com> <4B079A2A.30704@telus.net> Message-ID: <49768.202.124.89.224.1258813887.squirrel@webmail11.pair.com> > What do you mean by "leaked caps"? I've not seen water cause caps to do > anything. Are you sure that is not some glue put on the capacitors by > the manufacturer to secure them to the PCB? This is not uncommon... I'm really not sure what it is. The first place I noticed it was on the CDROM board, little drops directly underneath four small 10uf caps. They wiped away reasonably easily. The caps themselves look fine, and wouldn't have needed to be glued down. I think I was just jumping to conclusions (a bad habit of mine). Previously I've only seen leaks on bulging (larger) caps. > What about doing what some board manufacturers do - run the boards > through the dishwasher. > > I do not know what soap (if any) they use, but it has been discussed > many times on the 'net and you should be able to find ample valid > references to help you decide if you want to try it. My gut feeling was water+electronics = bad... It seems pretty unfounded looking all the advice from this list. Thanks, Dave. From bob at jfcl.com Sat Nov 21 08:52:42 2009 From: bob at jfcl.com (Bob Armstrong) Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2009 06:52:42 -0800 Subject: Indianapolis In-Reply-To: References: <88B1C396-06F7-42C0-B27B-8D003EE980D0@mac.com> Message-ID: <002601ca6aba$478b4010$d6a1c030$@com> >Ethan Dicks [mailto:ethan.dicks at gmail.com] wrote: >I'll be in Indianapolis from the 27th through the 29th >(Friday-Sunday). Does that overlap with your business trip? Really ? So will I. My parents live there and we'll be visiting for Christmas. Places to visit in Indianapolis (assuming we're talking about electronic "junk" places, that is) - MAI Prime (some surplus stuff) King Electronics (mostly new parts and tools) Electronic Rainbow Kits (mostly simple little kits) I'm afraid to say none of them are really unique enough to be worth a special trip, but if you're going to be there anyway... Bob From brianlanning at gmail.com Sat Nov 21 09:48:28 2009 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2009 09:48:28 -0600 Subject: Water damage In-Reply-To: <49768.202.124.89.224.1258813887.squirrel@webmail11.pair.com> References: <51341.202.124.88.116.1258735757.squirrel@webmail4.pair.com> <4B079A2A.30704@telus.net> <49768.202.124.89.224.1258813887.squirrel@webmail11.pair.com> Message-ID: <6dbe3c380911210748p4b0fb645i19e2755af2d45f95@mail.gmail.com> On Sat, Nov 21, 2009 at 8:31 AM, Dave Taylor wrote: > My gut feeling was water+electronics = bad... It seems pretty unfounded > looking all the advice from this list. > water + electronics + electricity = bad. This is because it causes short circuits that can fry components. As long as its completely dry, there's no water to cause the shorts. The other problem is corrosion. Pure water wouldn't do that, but all the other crud floating around in water is left on the component when water dries, encouraging corrosion. This is why you wash it off with a solvent (that doesn't leave deposits of its own). brian From wulfcub at gmail.com Sat Nov 21 10:19:03 2009 From: wulfcub at gmail.com (Wulf daMan) Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2009 10:19:03 -0600 Subject: Water damage In-Reply-To: <4B079A2A.30704@telus.net> References: <51341.202.124.88.116.1258735757.squirrel@webmail4.pair.com> <4B079A2A.30704@telus.net> Message-ID: On Sat, Nov 21, 2009 at 1:43 AM, John Robertson wrote: > > What about doing what some board manufacturers do - run the boards through > the dishwasher. > > I do not know what soap (if any) they use, but it has been discussed many > times on the 'net and you should be able to find ample valid references to > help you decide if you want to try it. When I worked at SimmSaver building memory stackers, we routinely ran boards through a dishwasher. Hot wash, with a short dry cycle, no detergent. When they came out, they were stacked on-edge to finish drying, and any water left under components was blown out with an air compressor. --Shaun -- "If you live to be a hundred, I want to live to be a hundred minus one day, so I never have to live without you." -- Winnie The Pooh http://www.lungs4amber.org From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sat Nov 21 10:19:51 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2009 11:19:51 -0500 Subject: IC DEC8881 In-Reply-To: <4B079DC2.2000608@brouhaha.com> References: <4B008F68.3090604@hachti.de> <4B002D45.200.1CA606B@cclist.sydex.com> <4B079DC2.2000608@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On 11/21/09, Eric Smith wrote: > Many of the DEC bus driver/receiver/transceiver chips were binned > (selected) for specs beyond what the manufacturer guaranteed for > standard parts. One of the characteristics they binned for was low > leakage current, which was essential on large systems. What would it take to build a rig to "bin" modern chips? -ethan From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sat Nov 21 10:22:57 2009 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2009 08:22:57 -0800 Subject: BIT 483 / was Re: Non-fake Apple 1 on ebay In-Reply-To: <4B06BB9C.7080205@tx.rr.com> References: ,,<4B047D0A.5070608@gmail.com> , <4B04E84D.C8C6A4F2@cs.ubc.ca>, <4B06BB9C.7080205@tx.rr.com> Message-ID: ---------------------------------------- > Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 09:54:04 -0600 > From: csquared3 at tx.rr.com > To: > Subject: Re: BIT 483 / was Re: Non-fake Apple 1 on ebay > > Brent Hilpert wrote: >>> A fellow on the VCForum found a BIT 483. Now that is >>> at least as rare as the A1. I have a Nicolet 1080 that I only know >>> of 5 total. There may be more but they are not likely in >>> another collectors hands without them contacting me or Sellam. >> >> I was going to ask about the BIT 483, but I see you and Chuck are already on >> top of it: >> >> http://www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum/showthread.php?p=120353 >> >> I love hearing about these little-known machines. Wish there was picture of the >> internals. Anybody know what sort of market these things found?, or more about >> the company origins/destiny? >> > That link is quite interesting, especially the pictures. From the way > the front panel is laid out, I would assume values are stated in octal > rather than hex. The bits on the panel seem to have a 2-3-3 pattern so > hex FF would be thought of as octal 377. This appears to be true of the > 2 address bytes as well. I think this means that for example address > hex FFFF would be represented as 377,377. That would take some real > mental gymnastics to deal with if one was entering a short program or > debugging manually. Maybe you can stay under 000,377 for short programs > and avoid that problem. Not having read any of the docs I don't know if > that is possible. > > My old Microdata 820 has a 4-4-4-4 front panel pattern which is rather > easier to deal with I think. Of course you realize this discussion has > me wanting to drag it out of the garage and get it going again. :) > Later, > Charlie C. > Hi The splitting of the octal address is called split octal. Heathkit did this on there H8/89. Of course it makes more sense on a 8 bit processor. It even makes sense to use octal for the 8080 type of instruction codes. On the BIT 483, it had some sense because of what they call page size. It was only 256 bytes. As I think Chuck mentioned, this limited the size of the variable length arithmatic. The only time while programming one uses an address greater than 377o is indirect addressing. This means that it makes sense to split it rather than have a complete full octal address. _________________________________________________________________ Windows 7: I wanted simpler, now it's simpler. I'm a rock star. http://www.microsoft.com/Windows/windows-7/default.aspx?h=myidea?ocid=PID24727::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WWL_WIN_myidea:112009 From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sat Nov 21 10:49:59 2009 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2009 08:49:59 -0800 Subject: Cromemco Z-2 and IMSAI 8080 at Purdue In-Reply-To: <4B07F9A4.3090307@att.net> References: <4B051263.17309.5261F7@cclist.sydex.com>, , <4B0585D8.9010009@snarc.net>, <4B0682C6.6020409@comcast.net>, , <4B07F9A4.3090307@att.net> Message-ID: ---------------------------------------- > Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2009 09:31:00 -0500 > From: shumaker at att.net > To: > Subject: Re: Cromemco Z-2 and IMSAI 8080 at Purdue > > Qas this a common mod? Didn't the Imsai have a header connector on the > CPU board for the front panel? > > > steve > Hi Yes, the address and data displayed are from the S100 but in order to make the hole thing work, the front panel needs direct access to the CPU's data bus as well. This is done with the header connector. The IMSAI and Altair both used the same method. To examine an address, they'd jam a jump instruction into the CPU from the header. To increment the address, they'd jam a NOP instruction. I'm not sure if this created the simplest front panel but had the advantage that the processor already had the correct address inside and only needed to be started when the RUN switch is selected. The S100 data bus had the real data while the 8080 only saw the phony instructions from the frontpanel unless RUN or SINGLE-STEP were selected. This is similar to the way most mini front panels work so it may have made sense to do this with the 8080. I should also note that one of the common problems I've seen on IMSAI and Altair front panels is getting the bits reversed on the header. The address increment seems to work but one can't select a correct address. The other problems that seems common is one of the OC data drivers fails. I suspect the timing is not exact and there is a little crowbar current but I've never put a 'scope on it to see. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail: Trusted email with Microsoft's powerful SPAM protection. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/177141664/direct/01/ http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/177141664/direct/01/ From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sat Nov 21 10:54:08 2009 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2009 08:54:08 -0800 Subject: Water damage In-Reply-To: <6dbe3c380911210748p4b0fb645i19e2755af2d45f95@mail.gmail.com> References: <51341.202.124.88.116.1258735757.squirrel@webmail4.pair.com>, <4B079A2A.30704@telus.net>, <49768.202.124.89.224.1258813887.squirrel@webmail11.pair.com>, <6dbe3c380911210748p4b0fb645i19e2755af2d45f95@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: ---------------------------------------- > Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2009 09:48:28 -0600 > Subject: Re: Water damage > From: brianlanning at gmail.com > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > On Sat, Nov 21, 2009 at 8:31 AM, Dave Taylor wrote: > >> My gut feeling was water+electronics = bad... It seems pretty unfounded >> looking all the advice from this list. >> > > water + electronics + electricity = bad. This is because it causes short > circuits that can fry components. As long as its completely dry, there's no > water to cause the shorts. The other problem is corrosion. Pure water > wouldn't do that, but all the other crud floating around in water is left on > the component when water dries, encouraging corrosion. This is why you wash > it off with a solvent (that doesn't leave deposits of its own). > > brian Hi It isn't quite true that pure water won't cause corrosion. It is actually slightly acidic. I recall reading about a large cosmic ray detector ( large pond of water ) where the water was ultra pure. The metal pieces would often just disolve. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Windows 7: I wanted simpler, now it's simpler. I'm a rock star. http://www.microsoft.com/Windows/windows-7/default.aspx?h=myidea?ocid=PID24727::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WWL_WIN_myidea:112009 From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Sat Nov 21 11:03:42 2009 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza) Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2009 15:03:42 -0200 Subject: Water damage In-Reply-To: References: <51341.202.124.88.116.1258735757.squirrel@webmail4.pair.com> <6dbe3c380911200906j577214a6t43466209c319ee95@mail.gmail.com> <4a15f9590911200911k395bc064nd6a3719c009e9ffa@mail.gmail.com> <6dbe3c380911200928x73a7690bq1cef91e0693c5fe5@mail.gmail.com> <001801ca6a21$68f0ff90$3ad2feb0$@com> Message-ID: <4a15f9590911210903h6f3f3d35m694e7ed846d05d07@mail.gmail.com> Never had it, Dan...Always used tap water. On Fri, Nov 20, 2009 at 6:49 PM, Dan Gahlinger wrote: > > If you're going to wash your boards with soap & water, > do NOT use tap water, use distilled water at a minimum. > tap water has impurities which can cause corrosion. > > Dan. > > _________________________________________________________________ > Windows Live: Make it easier for your friends to see what you?re up to on > Facebook. > http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9691816 From pete at dunnington.plus.com Sat Nov 21 11:16:21 2009 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2009 17:16:21 +0000 Subject: Water damage In-Reply-To: References: <51341.202.124.88.116.1258735757.squirrel@webmail4.pair.com>, <4B079A2A.30704@telus.net>, <49768.202.124.89.224.1258813887.squirrel@webmail11.pair.com>, <6dbe3c380911210748p4b0fb645i19e2755af2d45f95@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B082065.10302@dunnington.plus.com> On 21/11/2009 16:54, dwight elvey wrote: > It isn't quite true that pure water won't cause corrosion. > It is actually slightly acidic. I recall reading about > a large cosmic ray detector ( large pond of water ) where > the water was ultra pure. The metal pieces would often > just disolve. That surprises me. Pure water, H2O, does partly dissociate, but in doing so it forms an exactly equal number of OH- hydroxyl ions and H+ hydrogen ions -- the latter being what makes an acid acidic, and the former being what makes an alkali alkaline. Pure water, in fact, is virtually the definition of pH 7.0, which is absolutely neutral. I suspect what's actually happened is that dissolved gasses made the water acidic, but then it's not truly pure. For example, dissolving CO2 in water makes carbonic acid. Extreme cases aside, though, even tap water is fit to wash PCBs, so long as you have a little (very little!) wetting agent to ensure most of it runs off, and/or shake it or use compressed air to ensure you don't leave water under ICs and other components. Even quite hard water is OK if you do that, as the impurities are in tiny concentrations. Using solvents like alcohols is unnecessarily expensive. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From cclist at sydex.com Sat Nov 21 11:59:25 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2009 09:59:25 -0800 Subject: BIT 483 / was Re: Non-fake Apple 1 on ebay In-Reply-To: <4B06BB9C.7080205@tx.rr.com> References: , <4B04E84D.C8C6A4F2@cs.ubc.ca>, <4B06BB9C.7080205@tx.rr.com> Message-ID: <4B07B9FD.20880.110DFE5@cclist.sydex.com> On 20 Nov 2009 at 9:54, CSquared wrote: > My old Microdata 820 has a 4-4-4-4 front panel pattern which is rather > easier to deal with I think. Of course you realize this discussion > has me wanting to drag it out of the garage and get it going again. :) The switches on the MITS Altair are grouped in threes; the IMSAI allowed one to (by virtue of paddle colors) group in 3 or 4 (or 2). I simply ignored the grouping on the MITS and thought in hex anyway. It would have been much more difficult had the display on the system been octal via 7-segment displays. (I know that 8080 instructions, especially register moves, lend themselves to octal representation, but that was less important to me). --Chuck From ggs at shiresoft.com Sat Nov 21 12:36:16 2009 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2009 10:36:16 -0800 Subject: Water damage In-Reply-To: <4B082065.10302@dunnington.plus.com> References: <51341.202.124.88.116.1258735757.squirrel@webmail4.pair.com>, <4B079A2A.30704@telus.net>, <49768.202.124.89.224.1258813887.squirrel@webmail11.pair.com>, <6dbe3c380911210748p4b0fb645i19e2755af2d45f95@mail.gmail.com> <4B082065.10302@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: On Nov 21, 2009, at 9:16 AM, Pete Turnbull wrote: > On 21/11/2009 16:54, dwight elvey wrote: > >> It isn't quite true that pure water won't cause corrosion. >> It is actually slightly acidic. I recall reading about >> a large cosmic ray detector ( large pond of water ) where >> the water was ultra pure. The metal pieces would often >> just disolve. > > That surprises me. Pure water, H2O, does partly dissociate, but in > doing so it forms an exactly equal number of OH- hydroxyl ions and H > + hydrogen ions -- the latter being what makes an acid acidic, and > the former being what makes an alkali alkaline. Pure water, in > fact, is virtually the definition of pH 7.0, which is absolutely > neutral. I suspect what's actually happened is that dissolved > gasses made the water acidic, but then it's not truly pure. For > example, dissolving CO2 in water makes carbonic acid. Water is often termed the ultimate solvent. H2O (the molecule) has some interesting electrostatic properties that allows it to interact with a lot of different materials (including most metals). It makes it appear as if it has some acidic properties but it's not (ie it's not what one would consider a chemical reaction...the dissolved material hasn't chemically reacted with the water). TTFN - Guy From geoffr at zipcon.net Sat Nov 21 13:58:24 2009 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoffrey Reed) Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2009 11:58:24 -0800 Subject: Water damage In-Reply-To: <49768.202.124.89.224.1258813887.squirrel@webmail11.pair.com> Message-ID: On 11/21/09 6:31 AM, "Dave Taylor" wrote: > -snip again- > > My gut feeling was water+electronics = bad... It seems pretty unfounded > looking all the advice from this list. > > Thanks, > > Dave. > Water+Electronics can be bad, if not treated promptly. Water+Electronics+Power can be fatal to electronics. From teoz at neo.rr.com Sat Nov 21 13:59:37 2009 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2009 14:59:37 -0500 Subject: Water damage References: <51341.202.124.88.116.1258735757.squirrel@webmail4.pair.com>, <4B079A2A.30704@telus.net>, <49768.202.124.89.224.1258813887.squirrel@webmail11.pair.com>, <6dbe3c380911210748p4b0fb645i19e2755af2d45f95@mail.gmail.com><4B082065.10302@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <657F62EE4C84445D8BFFC21CBB415657@dell8300> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Guy Sotomayor" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Saturday, November 21, 2009 1:36 PM Subject: Re: Water damage > > On Nov 21, 2009, at 9:16 AM, Pete Turnbull wrote: > >> On 21/11/2009 16:54, dwight elvey wrote: >> >>> It isn't quite true that pure water won't cause corrosion. >>> It is actually slightly acidic. I recall reading about >>> a large cosmic ray detector ( large pond of water ) where >>> the water was ultra pure. The metal pieces would often >>> just disolve. >> >> That surprises me. Pure water, H2O, does partly dissociate, but in >> doing so it forms an exactly equal number of OH- hydroxyl ions and H + >> hydrogen ions -- the latter being what makes an acid acidic, and the >> former being what makes an alkali alkaline. Pure water, in fact, is >> virtually the definition of pH 7.0, which is absolutely neutral. I >> suspect what's actually happened is that dissolved gasses made the water >> acidic, but then it's not truly pure. For example, dissolving CO2 in >> water makes carbonic acid. > > Water is often termed the ultimate solvent. H2O (the molecule) has some > interesting electrostatic properties that allows it to interact with a > lot of different materials (including most metals). It makes it appear > as if it has some acidic properties but it's not (ie it's not what one > would consider a chemical reaction...the dissolved material hasn't > chemically reacted with the water). > > TTFN - Guy Yes, ultra pure water is a very good solvent. When exposed to air it sucks out the CO2 very quickly to make a weak acid (carbonic acid). Metals like 316SS will turn a goldish color over a period of use. What you want for washing circuit boards is just RO (reverse osmosis) water, basically most of the solids what are found in normal water are removed so when it dries it does not leave a film (I think car washes have it for the final spotless rinse). RO water can be de-ionized and ultra filtered to get ultra pure water (along with UV lighting to kill bacterial that might be growing in your pipes and more filters to pick up the exploded bits). From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Nov 21 12:57:28 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2009 18:57:28 +0000 (GMT) Subject: BIT 483 / was Re: Non-fake Apple 1 on ebay In-Reply-To: <4B06BB9C.7080205@tx.rr.com> from "CSquared" at Nov 20, 9 09:54:04 am Message-ID: > That link is quite interesting, especially the pictures. From the way > the front panel is laid out, I would assume values are stated in octal > rather than hex. The bits on the panel seem to have a 2-3-3 pattern so > hex FF would be thought of as octal 377. This appears to be true of the > 2 address bytes as well. I think this means that for example address > hex FFFF would be represented as 377,377. That would take some real That ecame failry common on early 8-bit microprocessor developement systems. If you had to load the address as 2 separae bytes it was actually a lot easier to handle each of them separately as an octal number from 0-377. I mentioned the HP9830 in another message. The microcode on that machine is 256 words long, oviously with an 8 bit address. But owing the the hardware design of the processor, you consider it as 2 separate nybbles (belice-it-or-not, one of the 4-bit fields in the microode word that is used to determine the next address [1] also selects the branch condition). Anyway, the patents for this series of machines, which contain a tremendous amount of information about them, give those address as _4 digit_ octal numbers. Each nybble is represented by a number in the range 0-17 (octal). So, for example hex E3 becomes 1603. It's not hard to get used to... [1] Being an strange HP machine, the fields that are used to determine the next address don't simply contain the next address. Rather, they tell the microocde program counter which bits to change to get the new address (effectively, the next address fields are XORed with the current address to get the next one. Yes I do work on these machines at this sort of level. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Nov 21 13:26:09 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2009 19:26:09 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Hard-sector discs -- how many sectors? In-Reply-To: <4B0732D2.4020706@philpem.me.uk> from "Philip Pemberton" at Nov 21, 9 00:22:42 am Message-ID: > > You can alos support 3" drives/disks. The Hitachi drives have a standard > > 34 pin SA400 interface, the ones that Amstrad used have a 26 pin > > connector (IIRC) with the same signals on it. 3" disks do have an index > > hole, the sensor is a light barrier there, not a signal on the spindle > > motor, but I've never seen or heard of hard sectored disks. > > So more or less the same technology as a 5.25" disc then -- a ~5mm hole > in the jacket, a ~1mm pinhole in the disc, and an optosensor in the drive. The hole sizes are somwhat different (in particlar the hole in the hjacket is smaller than 5mmm). The 3" disk has a hard plasic case with an intenral shutter, mechancially superior to the 3.5" one. Openin the shutter (done by a slider on the side of the disk which catches on a hook when you put the disk in the drive) also exposes the index hole. The hole is in the magnetic media itself, not in the plastic hub or anything like that. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Nov 21 13:28:26 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2009 19:28:26 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Non-fake Apple 1 on ebay In-Reply-To: <20091120171125.F95497@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Nov 20, 9 05:13:01 pm Message-ID: > > > diminish their importance. Each of us KNOWS what the most important and > > > significant machine was. > > > > So I? I am not sure I do.... > > Although you did just make a reasonably good case for the HP9830 :-) I consider the HP9830 to be _a_ significant machine, but by no means the only one. And FWIW, I consider many machines that I positively dislike the design and/or construction of to be historically important. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Nov 21 13:00:14 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2009 19:00:14 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Water damage In-Reply-To: <4B06EA53.2000109@jwsss.com> from "jim s" at Nov 20, 9 11:13:23 am Message-ID: > > I was looking at the isopropyl container that I have and noticed that it > is a 50/50 mix of alcohol and water. I wonder if you can get a 100% (or > as near as possible) w/o going to a chemical supply house. The suff I use, which is sold by electronics shops over here and is branded 'Servisol' (a fairly well-known brand of electronic cleaners/lubricants/etc, what are often called 'service aids') claims to be 99.9% pure. But I will admit I've not verified that :-)) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Nov 21 13:13:04 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2009 19:13:04 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Other disk and drive types (Was: Hard-sector discs -- how many In-Reply-To: <4B0724CE.8040209@philpem.me.uk> from "Philip Pemberton" at Nov 20, 9 11:22:54 pm Message-ID: > > I think that the first 34 pins are the same. I only have a few of those > > drives, and they are many archeological layers deep. The pinout of the > > ones that IBM used on the PS/2s (with the 6 extra pins for power) might be > > in the AT "Options and Adapters" Tech Ref > > Knowing IBM, I wouldn't be surprised. I think my 2.88 drive is buried in I don;t think it's in the AT TechRef (at least it's not in mine, and I have some of the suplements), but there is pinout in the 'Personal System/2 Hardware Interface Technical Reference'. This is nowhere near as good a manual as the older TechRefs (no scheamtics, no BIOS sources), but a friend of mine was goign to throw it out, so I grabbed it :-). Anyway, here's the drive pinout : 1: 2nd Drive installed/ 2: High Denisity Select/ 3: Reserved 4: Reserved 5: Ground 6: Reserved 7: Signal Ground 8: Index/ 9: Signal Ground 10: Reserved 11: Signal Ground 12: Drive Select/ 13: Ground 14: Reserved 15: Signal Ground 16: Motor Enable/ 17: Singal Ground 18: Direction In/ 19: Signal Ground 20: Step' 21: Signal Ground 22: Write Data/ 23: Signal Ground 24: Write Enable/ 25: Signal Ground 26: Track 0/ 27: Signal Ground 28: Write Protect/ 29: Signal Ground 30: Read Data/ 31: Signal Ground 32: Head 1 Select/ 33: Signal Ground 34: DIskette Change/ 35: Ground 36: Ground 37: Ground 38: +5V DC 39: Ground 40: +12V DC Note that IBM have re-named some signals, but that the frist 34 really are an SA400 interface :-). I have no idea what the difference between 'ground' and 'signal ground' is, my guess is they're tied together. I am also a little unhappy about only having one pin for each of the supply rails (the Sony, etc, 3.5" drives with power and data on the same 34 pin connector use several of the odd-numbered pins for each of the 2 supplies) Anywhy, there you are... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Nov 21 13:19:13 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2009 19:19:13 +0000 (GMT) Subject: 6502 trivia (was Re: Non-fake Apple 1 on ebay) In-Reply-To: <4B0728C6.5000406@comcast.net> from "Dan Roganti" at Nov 20, 9 06:39:50 pm Message-ID: > What about the story of the first revision, the 6501, which was pin > compatible with the Motorola 6800(being that they were ex-MOT people) > but offered more addressing modes. From what I read, this was their > intention in order to gain a foothold in the market Although it wasn't > software compatible from what I understand--so I'm not sure how they AFAIK the 6501 was software compatible with the 6502, which makes it incompatile with the 6800. > expected to gain any advantage. Then Motorola sued them in court and > won, and this resulted in them making the 6502. Of course the signals remained logically the same, just on different pins. And the 6502 could use all the peripehral chips for the 6800 very easily. I have seen at least one PCB (I think the one I remember came from Tangerine) which has overlapping 40-pin DIL positions for either a 6502 0r a 6800. Oviously you needed diferent monitor ROMs and software, but the hardwre was essnetially the same. I heard a rumour the Apple 1 had that feature too, but I have never handled one... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Nov 21 13:30:12 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2009 19:30:12 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Hard-sector discs -- how many sectors? In-Reply-To: <20091120171918.X95497@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Nov 20, 9 05:24:02 pm Message-ID: > Has anybody bothered to checkout the innards of the first Tandy "Portable > Disk Drive" (for the Model 100)? It has been referred to as having "hard > sectors", but uses an ordinary 3.5" floppy. Being a Tandy product, the should be a service manual for it -- Tandy were very good about supplying service manuals for all their computer products, even ones they simply 'badged' (like the pocket computers). Is this manual on-line anywhere? If not, does anyone have it? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Nov 21 14:01:36 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2009 20:01:36 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Non-fake Apple 1 on ebay In-Reply-To: from "Christian Corti" at Nov 21, 9 11:19:34 am Message-ID: > > On Fri, 20 Nov 2009, Brent Hilpert wrote: > > The Osborne book lists 9 variants: > > 65x2 x=0|1 > > 65x3 > > 65x4 > > 65x5 > > 6506 I'p pretty suee I've seen a 6507, at least in a databook. And the 6509 was a Commodore-special with a built-in MMU sicruit used in the PET II (P500 etc). SOme of the cut-down ones turn up in old Commodore printers, BTW. > > And there's the 6500 (yes, '00'). It's a 40 pin microcontroller, and > it was used eg. on Seagate ST-225 drives. Yes, I've come across that one... I have an old Rockwell databook which lists most of the varients with pinouts and specs. Very handy... -tony From joachim.thiemann at gmail.com Sat Nov 21 14:46:25 2009 From: joachim.thiemann at gmail.com (Joachim Thiemann) Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2009 15:46:25 -0500 Subject: Non-fake Apple 1 on ebay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4affc5e0911211246j33864ae7sa41fbb2fcb623b65@mail.gmail.com> On Sat, Nov 21, 2009 at 15:01, Tony Duell wrote: >> And there's the 6500 (yes, '00'). It's a 40 pin microcontroller, and >> it was used eg. on Seagate ST-225 drives. > > Yes, I've come across that one... > I believe most, if not all, Amiga keyboards use a 6500/1. -- Joachim Thiemann :: http://www.tsp.ece.mcgill.ca/~jthiem From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Sat Nov 21 14:24:57 2009 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2009 12:24:57 -0800 Subject: Non-fake Apple 1 on ebay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B084C99.1020601@mail.msu.edu> Tony Duell wrote: >> On Fri, 20 Nov 2009, Brent Hilpert wrote: >> >>> The Osborne book lists 9 variants: >>> 65x2 x=0|1 >>> 65x3 >>> 65x4 >>> 65x5 >>> 6506 >>> > > I'p pretty suee I've seen a 6507, at least in a databook. And the 6509 > was a Commodore-special with a built-in MMU sicruit used in the PET II > (P500 etc). > The 6507 was used in the Atari VCS (2600). Basically a 6502 limited to an 8K address space, and in a smaller (28-pin?) package. - Josh From geoffr at zipcon.net Sat Nov 21 15:19:19 2009 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoffrey Reed) Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2009 13:19:19 -0800 Subject: Non-fake Apple 1 on ebay In-Reply-To: <4B084C99.1020601@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: The 6507 is also used in the atari 1050 drive. On 11/21/09 12:24 PM, "Josh Dersch" wrote: > > > Tony Duell wrote: >>> On Fri, 20 Nov 2009, Brent Hilpert wrote: >>> >>>> The Osborne book lists 9 variants: >>>> 65x2 x=0|1 >>>> 65x3 >>>> 65x4 >>>> 65x5 >>>> 6506 >>>> >> >> I'p pretty suee I've seen a 6507, at least in a databook. And the 6509 >> was a Commodore-special with a built-in MMU sicruit used in the PET II >> (P500 etc). >> > > The 6507 was used in the Atari VCS (2600). Basically a 6502 limited to > an 8K address space, and in a smaller (28-pin?) package. > > - Josh > From curt at atarimuseum.com Sat Nov 21 17:44:08 2009 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2009 18:44:08 -0500 Subject: Non-fake Apple 1 on ebay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B087B48.2020808@atarimuseum.com> Many Atari periperals used the 6507: Atari 810 Disk drive Atari 815 dual disk drive Atari 1050 Atari 820 printer Most of the peripherals had to have some form of CPU in them as they needed to intelligently communicate over the SIO (Serial I/O) bus of the Atari 8bit computers. The SIO was a primitive form of what is now the USB interface, interestingly enough - the designer of the SIO Bus went on to work for Microsoft and holds one of the USB patents - Joe Decuir. Curt Geoffrey Reed wrote: > The 6507 is also used in the atari 1050 drive. > > > On 11/21/09 12:24 PM, "Josh Dersch" wrote: > > >> Tony Duell wrote: >> >>>> On Fri, 20 Nov 2009, Brent Hilpert wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>> The Osborne book lists 9 variants: >>>>> 65x2 x=0|1 >>>>> 65x3 >>>>> 65x4 >>>>> 65x5 >>>>> 6506 >>>>> >>>>> >>> I'p pretty suee I've seen a 6507, at least in a databook. And the 6509 >>> was a Commodore-special with a built-in MMU sicruit used in the PET II >>> (P500 etc). >>> >>> >> The 6507 was used in the Atari VCS (2600). Basically a 6502 limited to >> an 8K address space, and in a smaller (28-pin?) package. >> >> - Josh >> >> > > > > From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Nov 21 17:44:09 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2009 15:44:09 -0800 (PST) Subject: Hard-sector discs -- how many sectors? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20091121154302.Y36622@shell.lmi.net> On Sat, 21 Nov 2009, Tony Duell wrote: > The hole sizes are somwhat different (in particlar the hole in the > hjacket is smaller than 5mmm). The 3" disk has a hard plasic case with an > intenral shutter, mechancially superior to the 3.5" one. Openin the > shutter (done by a slider on the side of the disk which catches on a hook > when you put the disk in the drive) also exposes the index hole. The hole > is in the magnetic media itself, not in the plastic hub or anything like > that. Also, the SS media is explicitly flippy From pete at dunnington.plus.com Sat Nov 21 17:37:28 2009 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2009 23:37:28 +0000 Subject: Water damage In-Reply-To: References: <51341.202.124.88.116.1258735757.squirrel@webmail4.pair.com>, <4B079A2A.30704@telus.net>, <49768.202.124.89.224.1258813887.squirrel@webmail11.pair.com>, <6dbe3c380911210748p4b0fb645i19e2755af2d45f95@mail.gmail.com> <4B082065.10302@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <4B0879B8.20509@dunnington.plus.com> On 21/11/2009 18:36, Guy Sotomayor wrote: > Water is often termed the ultimate solvent. H2O (the molecule) has some > interesting electrostatic properties It's actually a slightly polar molecule because its shape is more like O / \ than H--O--H (exaggerated by limitations of ASCII art) H H If you've not seen this demo, try the following: rub a plastic rod to give it a slight static charge. Run a thin slow stream of water from a tap, and then bring the charged rod close to the stream. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Nov 21 18:36:02 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2009 16:36:02 -0800 (PST) Subject: Water damage In-Reply-To: <4B06EA53.2000109@jwsss.com> References: <51341.202.124.88.116.1258735757.squirrel@webmail4.pair.com>, <6dbe3c380911200906j577214a6t43466209c319ee95@mail.gmail.com>, <4a15f9590911200911k395bc064nd6a3719c009e9ffa@mail.gmail.com> <4B06E083.4080909@attglobal.net> <4B06EA53.2000109@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <20091121163405.Q37603@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 20 Nov 2009, jim s wrote: > I was looking at the isopropyl container that I have and noticed that it > is a 50/50 mix of alcohol and water. I wonder if you can get a 100% (or > as near as possible) w/o going to a chemical supply house. Always check the label carefully. In USA, you can get 90% isopropyl alcohol in dupermarkets and drug stores, although the weak stuff is much more common. From RichA at vulcan.com Sat Nov 21 18:44:21 2009 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2009 16:44:21 -0800 Subject: 6502 trivia (was Re: Non-fake Apple 1 on ebay) In-Reply-To: References: <4B0728C6.5000406@comcast.net> Message-ID: > From: Roger Ivie > Sent: Friday, November 20, 2009 6:15 PM > On Fri, Nov 20, 2009 at 10:16 AM, Al Kossow wrote: >> Chuck Peddle told me a couple of months ago that the 6502 was never >> intended to be a general-purpose microprocessor, it was designed to >> be a replacement for hard-wired logic. > Hmm. Ken Olsen once told me the same thing about the PDP-5. Except for > the "micro" bit, of course. This is also noted, though one must read between the lines, in the papers on the 18- and 12-bit systems (specifically the PDP-4 and PDP-5) which were collected in Bell, McNamara & Mudge, _Computer Engineering_. (I've had occasion to re-read those several times the last couple of months, while preparing material for our new site.) Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Server Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at livingcomputermuseum.org (206) 342-2239 (206) 465-2916 cell http://www.pdpplanet.org/ http://www.livingcomputermuseum.org/ From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Sat Nov 21 18:53:13 2009 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2009 00:53:13 +0000 Subject: Disc analyser status update -- it works! Message-ID: <4B088B79.4030804@philpem.me.uk> Quick status update before I go to bed... The analyser is now reading discs. All the buffer data seems valid, and the nifty "so simple I can't believe I didn't think of it first" counter-rollover algorithm proposed by Peter Coghlan seems to work really nicely too. I've dumped track zero from a DOS 1.4MB floppy and (after a quick bit of histogram analysis) it looks like valid MFM data. I'm seeing a big spike at ~2us, a second, smaller, spike at ~3us, and a third, even smaller spike at ~4us. The last spike is only just noticeable on a linear graph scale -- probably due to the large number of 2us "hits" (39,000 in a 90,000 sample acquisition). On a log scale it's a lot more visible. I haven't tried decoding the data yet, but that's next on the list. Writing isn't implemented yet (I need to do a partial-rewrite and redesign of the disc writer state machine) but I'm quite happy with how this has turned out thus far. I'd post screenshots, but console apps don't tend to make very interesting screenshots... (I'd also cross-post this to VCforum, but I'm too tired to remember my password) Cheers, -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Sat Nov 21 18:59:43 2009 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2009 00:59:43 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Water damage In-Reply-To: <4B0879B8.20509@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <772530.32504.qm@web23401.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Hehe, I have seen the magentic water trick on UK kids show "How 2". That used to be great for cool and entertaining science stuff. Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk --- On Sat, 21/11/09, Pete Turnbull wrote: From: Pete Turnbull Subject: Re: Water damage To: "On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Date: Saturday, 21 November, 2009, 23:37 On 21/11/2009 18:36, Guy Sotomayor wrote: > Water is often termed the ultimate solvent.? H2O (the molecule) has some interesting electrostatic properties It's actually a slightly polar molecule because its shape is more like ? ???O ? ? / \? ? ? than???H--O--H? (exaggerated by limitations of ASCII art) ???H???H If you've not seen this demo, try the following: rub a plastic rod to give it a slight static charge.? Run a thin slow stream of water from a tap, and then bring the charged rod close to the stream. -- Pete??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? Peter Turnbull ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? Network Manager ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? University of York From mdavidson1963 at gmail.com Sat Nov 21 19:25:17 2009 From: mdavidson1963 at gmail.com (mdavidson1963 at gmail.com) Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2009 17:25:17 -0800 Subject: Great haul! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4b08922c.e302be0a.19a6.7a2f@mx.google.com> Oh my, that is a great haul! -- Sent from my Palm Pr? Steven Hirsch wrote: Today I became the proud owner of: - Northstar Horizon w/ 2x 5.25" built-in drives + mucho software Haven't had a chance to pop the cover and inventory the boards. - Sony SMC-70 w/ 3 boxes of binders and software A nice little CP/M system with built-in 3.5" diskette drives - Morrow 8" external hard drive This looks to be an MFM interface, or at least it has a 34-pin + 20-pin header on the rear panel. Anyone familiar with it? And the strangest one of all: - OSM "Zeus" I'm told this was a multi-user business computer from the early 80s, but the person who gave it to me had no documentation or other information on it. Oh, and about 40 boxes of 8" SS/SD NOS diskettes still sealed in plastic and about 10-20 boxes of 8" SS/SD hard-sectored diskettes, most still sealed. I'm not sure I really need all the diskettes and may offer them for the price of shipping - stay tuned. Also, 4-5 large shelf bins full of 8" application master diskettes and the entire CPM-UG collection. This will all take a while to go through. Steve -- From n0body.h0me at inbox.com Sat Nov 21 21:00:33 2009 From: n0body.h0me at inbox.com (N0body H0me) Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2009 19:00:33 -0800 Subject: Water damage In-Reply-To: <20091121163405.Q37603@shell.lmi.net> References: <4a15f9590911200911k395bc064nd6a3719c009e9ffa@mail.gmail.com> <4b06ea53.2000109@jwsss.com> <51341.202.124.88.116.1258735757.squirrel@webmail4.pair.com> <4b06e083.4080909@attglobal.net> <6dbe3c380911200906j577214a6t43466209c319ee95@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <8F409A20AAC.00000572n0body.h0me@inbox.com> If you live someplace where there's agricultural stuff going on, you can probably get it from a place that sells farming supplies (I get mine from a local tractor dealership, for example). Call 'em up on the phone and ask. . . Do *NOT* use the stuff you get from the drug stores-- even the 90% stuff, it still has too much water for electronics use. The 100% iso evaporates *completely* at room temprature. The water content in the other stuff tends to linger. Not good. Jeff > -----Original Message----- > From: cisin at xenosoft.com > Sent: Sat, 21 Nov 2009 16:36:02 -0800 (PST) > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Water damage > > On Fri, 20 Nov 2009, jim s wrote: >> I was looking at the isopropyl container that I have and noticed that it >> is a 50/50 mix of alcohol and water. I wonder if you can get a 100% (or >> as near as possible) w/o going to a chemical supply house. > > Always check the label carefully. In USA, you can get 90% isopropyl > alcohol in dupermarkets and drug stores, although the weak stuff is much > more common. ____________________________________________________________ FREE 3D EARTH SCREENSAVER - Watch the Earth right on your desktop! Check it out at http://www.inbox.com/earth From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Nov 21 21:15:20 2009 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2009 20:15:20 -0700 Subject: Water damage In-Reply-To: <8F409A20AAC.00000572n0body.h0me@inbox.com> References: <4a15f9590911200911k395bc064nd6a3719c009e9ffa@mail.gmail.com> <4b06ea53.2000109@jwsss.com> <51341.202.124.88.116.1258735757.squirrel@webmail4.pair.com> <4b06e083.4080909@attglobal.net> <6dbe3c380911200906j577214a6t43466209c319ee95@mail.gmail.com> <8F409A20AAC.00000572n0body.h0me@inbox.com> Message-ID: <4B08ACC8.8050309@jetnet.ab.ca> N0body H0me wrote: > If you live someplace where there's agricultural > stuff going on, you can probably get it from a place > that sells farming supplies (I get mine from a > local tractor dealership, for example). Call 'em > up on the phone and ask. . . > > Do *NOT* use the stuff you get from the drug > stores-- even the 90% stuff, it still has too > much water for electronics use. The 100% iso > evaporates *completely* at room temprature. > The water content in the other stuff tends to > linger. Not good. What about the 99% stuff? From cclist at sydex.com Sat Nov 21 21:59:45 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2009 19:59:45 -0800 Subject: Water damage In-Reply-To: <4B08ACC8.8050309@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4a15f9590911200911k395bc064nd6a3719c009e9ffa@mail.gmail.com>, <8F409A20AAC.00000572n0body.h0me@inbox.com>, <4B08ACC8.8050309@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4B0846B1.27261.336801E@cclist.sydex.com> On 21 Nov 2009 at 20:15, Ben wrote: > What about the 99% stuff? Go to any paint store or big-box store that sells paint and get a can of denatured alcohol. If not 100%, it's very close--it's used to thin shellac. If there's any water in it, the shellac dry cloudy, so the manufacturers usually take pains to make sure that it doesn't happen. The denaturing agent is commonly methyl or isopropyl alcohol, rendering it unfit for human consumption. You might also be able to find it as a camp-stove fuel at your local sporting goods supply store. I fill my little bench dispenser with it as a defluxing agent. --Chuck From ajp166 at verizon.net Sat Nov 21 22:01:34 2009 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2009 23:01:34 -0500 Subject: Water damage In-Reply-To: <4B08ACC8.8050309@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4a15f9590911200911k395bc064nd6a3719c009e9ffa@mail.gmail.com> <4b06ea53.2000109@jwsss.com> <51341.202.124.88.116.1258735757.squirrel@webmail4.pair.com> <4b06e083.4080909@attglobal.net> <6dbe3c380911200906j577214a6t43466209c319ee95@mail.gmail.com> <8F409A20AAC.00000572n0body.h0me@inbox.com> <4B08ACC8.8050309@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4B08B79E.7050103@verizon.net> 90% iso is fine. I used to service marine gear. During that time I's get one that had been dunked in the nastiest, saltwater. The procedure was know to those that did that kind of service. -First immerse in clean fresh water. -Open unit to fully expose -Then drain and repeat with fresh (not reused) water to get the salt out. -After several rinses a bath in any Isopropanol to kill any bugs that might have been in the water. That also means runoff or other sources of water. It's critically important to get out salts as many are hydroscopic even after drying. Generally for the last 30 years water and sometimes surfactants are the common material for cleaning freshly assembled boards. It's also safer and easiest to dispose of in a safe way. Bake in an oven at 180F (warm but not hot) to drive out all water. Replace any paper parts (speaker) or other items that may have been affected by water and lubricate as needed (shafts, switches, pots). If the unit hadn't been in the salt for more than a day full recovery was common. Longer than that and you get electrolysis and parts literally start falling off the boards. Water is ok to a point. It should never be allowed to sit as corrosion is the real problem. With boards and electronics that generally means electrolytic corrosion as you have dissimilar metals and often the water is not clean. Clean water is a poor conductor and less a problem so cleaning with water is least damaging is it's is distilled. Also distilled will not remain nonionic if the board is dirty, clean it first. I've cleaned cruddy PDP-8 and PDP11 boards in the dishwasher. I had a S100 crate that was so filthy I would never bring it in the house until it got hosed off and initially scrubbed outdoors then disassembled for a pass through a dish washer. Bake them dry and they look factory new and have never given problems. I recently got a ham transceiver that was owned by a smoker and stored in a dusty dirty garage and ran that through the dish washer (after removing the tubes, meters and fully opening it up) after drying and lubricating the tuning mechanism it looks nearly new save for scratches. When assembled and few known problems repaired before washing it worked as it should. This was a tube (valve) radio employing voltages like 150, 300 and 750 so any conductive path (including dirt) is going to be a real issue. Cleaning also cleared a few HV arcs that were caused by the greasy dust when first tested. NOTE: water is the least caustic and also the least damaging cleaning material. Many solvents will damage plastics including older IC encapsulents, plastic cased transistors as well as adhesives to name a few. Also water (and maybe some mild soap) will remove soot, dirt, dust, and possible fungal residues (molds). Some parts like power transformers are a pain to wash but if water has gotten to them then a rinse and thorough bake is always required. Water is not the problem but how to deal with all the other things that come with it or result from it laying in a puddle of dirty water. Allison Ben wrote: > N0body H0me wrote: >> If you live someplace where there's agricultural stuff going on, you >> can probably get it from a place >> that sells farming supplies (I get mine from a >> local tractor dealership, for example). Call 'em >> up on the phone and ask. . . >> >> Do *NOT* use the stuff you get from the drug stores-- even the 90% >> stuff, it still has too >> much water for electronics use. The 100% iso >> evaporates *completely* at room temprature. >> The water content in the other stuff tends to linger. Not good. > What about the 99% stuff? > From n0body.h0me at inbox.com Sat Nov 21 22:25:47 2009 From: n0body.h0me at inbox.com (N0body H0me) Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2009 20:25:47 -0800 Subject: Water damage In-Reply-To: <4B08B79E.7050103@verizon.net> References: <51341.202.124.88.116.1258735757.squirrel@webmail4.pair.com> <4a15f9590911200911k395bc064nd6a3719c009e9ffa@mail.gmail.com> <4b06ea53.2000109@jwsss.com> <8f409a20aac.00000572n0body.h0me@inbox.com> <4b06e083.4080909@attglobal.net> <6dbe3c380911200906j577214a6t43466209c319ee95@mail.gmail.com> <4b08acc8.8050309@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <8FFF1C6FA44.000005B7n0body.h0me@inbox.com> I'll agree with you, if your going to the trouble of baking it, yeah, the dishwasher treatment works great. We used to do the same thing when I worked for FLUKE in the mid-80's-- wash, rinse, bake. Repeat until your leakage current is in spec! :^) I'm just thinking about if maybe you're in a hurry to get the unit reassembled, or maybe you're a little nervous about putting this stuff in an oven, (or if your shop doesn't have one) 99% iso gets you there w/o having to use much heat to evaporate everything. YOu're sure right about iso's solvent properties; I don't give anything an alcohol bath if I think I might dissolve something (been there, done that). Fortunately the mobile radios I have to service these days don't have plate transformers! Jeff > -----Original Message----- > From: ajp166 at verizon.net > Sent: Sat, 21 Nov 2009 23:01:34 -0500 > To: > Subject: Re: Water damage > > 90% iso is fine. > > I used to service marine gear. During that time I's get one that > had been dunked in the nastiest, saltwater. The procedure was > know to those that did that kind of service. > > -First immerse in clean fresh water. > -Open unit to fully expose > -Then drain and repeat with fresh (not reused) water to get the salt > out. > -After several rinses a bath in any Isopropanol to kill any bugs that > might > have been in the water. That also means runoff or other sources of > water. > > It's critically important to get out salts as many are hydroscopic even > after > drying. > > Generally for the last 30 years water and sometimes surfactants are the > common material for cleaning freshly assembled boards. It's also safer > and easiest to dispose of in a safe way. > > Bake in an oven at 180F (warm but not hot) to drive out all water. > Replace any paper parts (speaker) or other items that may have been > affected by water and lubricate as needed (shafts, switches, pots). > > If the unit hadn't been in the salt for more than a day full recovery was > common. Longer than that and you get electrolysis and parts literally > start falling off the boards. > > Water is ok to a point. It should never be allowed to sit as corrosion > is the real problem. With boards and electronics that generally means > electrolytic corrosion as you have dissimilar metals and often the water > is not clean. Clean water is a poor conductor and less a problem so > cleaning with water is least damaging is it's is distilled. Also > distilled > will not remain nonionic if the board is dirty, clean it first. > > I've cleaned cruddy PDP-8 and PDP11 boards in the dishwasher. > I had a S100 crate that was so filthy I would never bring it in the > house until it got hosed off and initially scrubbed outdoors then > disassembled for a pass through a dish washer. Bake them dry > and they look factory new and have never given problems. I > recently got a ham transceiver that was owned by a smoker and > stored in a dusty dirty garage and ran that through the dish > washer (after removing the tubes, meters and fully opening it up) > after drying and lubricating the tuning mechanism it looks nearly > new save for scratches. When assembled and few known problems > repaired before washing it worked as it should. This was a tube > (valve) radio employing voltages like 150, 300 and 750 so any > conductive path (including dirt) is going to be a real issue. > Cleaning also cleared a few HV arcs that were caused by > the greasy dust when first tested. > > NOTE: water is the least caustic and also the least damaging > cleaning material. Many solvents will damage plastics including > older IC encapsulents, plastic cased transistors as well as > adhesives to name a few. Also water (and maybe some mild soap) > will remove soot, dirt, dust, and possible fungal residues (molds). > > Some parts like power transformers are a pain to wash but if water has > gotten to them then a rinse and thorough bake is always required. > > Water is not the problem but how to deal with all the other things > that come with it or result from it laying in a puddle of dirty water. > > > Allison > > > > Ben wrote: >> N0body H0me wrote: >>> If you live someplace where there's agricultural stuff going on, you >>> can probably get it from a place >>> that sells farming supplies (I get mine from a >>> local tractor dealership, for example). Call 'em >>> up on the phone and ask. . . >>> >>> Do *NOT* use the stuff you get from the drug stores-- even the 90% >>> stuff, it still has too >>> much water for electronics use. The 100% iso >>> evaporates *completely* at room temprature. >>> The water content in the other stuff tends to linger. Not good. >> What about the 99% stuff? >> From g-wright at att.net Sat Nov 21 22:32:03 2009 From: g-wright at att.net (g-wright at att.net) Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2009 04:32:03 +0000 Subject: Great haul! OMS Zues In-Reply-To: <4b08922c.e302be0a.19a6.7a2f@mx.google.com> References: <4b08922c.e302be0a.19a6.7a2f@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <112220090432.4344.4B08BEC2000A3197000010F822230703729B0A02D29B9B0EBF9B0809079D99D309@att.net> -------------- Original message from "mdavidson1963 at gmail.com" : -------------- > Oh my, that is a great haul! > > -- Sent from my Palm Pr? > Steven Hirsch wrote: > And the strangest one of all: > > - OSM "Zeus" > > > > I'm told this was a multi-user business computer from the early 80s, but > > the person who gave it to me had no documentation or other information on > > it. If this is a small beige metal box with a wood top cover, it is a Zeus 4. I have been looking for anything for the 1 I have for years. mine has a bad hard drive. They where used in video stores around here in the 1980's. - Jerry > > > > > Steve > > > > > > > > -- > > From ball.of.john at gmail.com Sat Nov 21 23:46:12 2009 From: ball.of.john at gmail.com (John Ball) Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2009 21:46:12 -0800 Subject: Got two RK05's, looking for a PDP-8 or 11 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4E4A6238436C454482FC5093BCB8E91F@sparks> I managed to locate two nicely working RK05J drives (though the voice coil/head assemblies were removed but I'm trying to get two more from another guy but damn, those things apparently weigh 80 pounds alone! Think of the shipping costs! D:) and now I'm really intent on finding either a PDP-8 or PDP-11 Omnibus system I can run them with. I have been trying my local Craigslist (as well as others but the listings kept on getting flagged) but it's a ghost town and I got leads at a place called FreeGeek in Vancouver but they have never seen a PDP come in through their doors, ever. I'm running out of places to search and ideas on how to bring my searching for a PDP to the attention of people who have systems they no longer need or are willing to part with theirs. I saw alt.sys.pdp8 and alt.sys.pdp11 but they are both rather empty so I don't know if a yell for help would be heard there. Any help or offers would be appreciated very much. Also, most of the bulbs on the front panels of the drives have burnt out. Are these just regular 12v bulbs? I saw someone replaced the lights in their drives with LEDs and that would be a bit nicer as LEDs would never have to be replaced again. Also, I received only the drives. I saw several flip chips in the thing and a single empty slot. I'm assuming that the flip chips are the controller and the empty slot contained a board which gave you a ribbon cable connection to the omnibus backplane in the PDP or are the chips in the drives "fridge logic" and I'm missing the controllers? Thanks. From ggs at shiresoft.com Sun Nov 22 00:08:58 2009 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2009 22:08:58 -0800 Subject: Got two RK05's, looking for a PDP-8 or 11 In-Reply-To: <4E4A6238436C454482FC5093BCB8E91F@sparks> References: <4E4A6238436C454482FC5093BCB8E91F@sparks> Message-ID: On Nov 21, 2009, at 9:46 PM, John Ball wrote: > I managed to locate two nicely working RK05J drives (though the voice > coil/head assemblies were removed but I'm trying to get two more from > another guy but damn, those things apparently weigh 80 pounds alone! If the head/voice coil assemblies have been removed you'll have to go through the entire alignment procedure which requires a special alignment pack. You'll also want to make sure that all of the dreaded "DEC foam" has been removed and replaced or you're heads and packs won't last long. You'll also want to look at the filters and make sure they're in good shape and replace them (if you can find them). However, bad filters will also kill the heads and packs. If the head/voice coil assemblies have been removed how do you know that the drives are working? > Think > of the shipping costs! D:) and now I'm really intent on finding > either a > PDP-8 or PDP-11 Omnibus system I can run them with. I have been > trying my > local Craigslist (as well as others but the listings kept on getting > flagged) but it's a ghost town and I got leads at a place called > FreeGeek in > Vancouver but they have never seen a PDP come in through their > doors, ever. > I'm running out of places to search and ideas on how to bring my > searching > for a PDP to the attention of people who have systems they no longer > need or > are willing to part with theirs. I saw alt.sys.pdp8 and > alt.sys.pdp11 but > they are both rather empty so I don't know if a yell for help would > be heard > there. Any help or offers would be appreciated very much. > > Also, most of the bulbs on the front panels of the drives have burnt > out. > Are these just regular 12v bulbs? They're one of the standard DEC lamps. I don't recall off the top of my head what the equivalent lamp # is but they (or a reasonable facsimile) are readily available. > I saw someone replaced the lights in their > drives with LEDs and that would be a bit nicer as LEDs would never > have to > be replaced again. > Also, I received only the drives. I saw several flip chips in the > thing and > a single empty slot. I'm assuming that the flip chips are the > controller and > the empty slot contained a board which gave you a ribbon cable > connection to > the omnibus backplane in the PDP or are the chips in the drives > "fridge > logic" and I'm missing the controllers? For an omnibus PDP-8 you need an RK-8E controller that goes in the omnibus chassis. The "hard" part is finding the cable that goes from the RK-8E and the drive. For a PDP-11 (unibus) you need an RK-11D controller. It is actually a 4 board set in it's own backplane that goes in the CPU chassis. There is also an RK-11C for unibus but that controller is of the "old style" that has 40 or so flip chips in a rack width backplane and is mounted outside of the CPU chassis in a rack (requires a separate power supply) that connects to the CPU with unibus cables. If you're not looking for a "blinken" lights machine, you're best bet would probably be an 11/34 system. I have several that are "spares" but right now I'm swamped and haven't been able to spend any time on classic computer stuff. TTFN - Guy From pinball at telus.net Sat Nov 21 15:22:52 2009 From: pinball at telus.net (John Robertson) Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2009 13:22:52 -0800 Subject: Water damage In-Reply-To: <6dbe3c380911210748p4b0fb645i19e2755af2d45f95@mail.gmail.com> References: <51341.202.124.88.116.1258735757.squirrel@webmail4.pair.com> <4B079A2A.30704@telus.net> <49768.202.124.89.224.1258813887.squirrel@webmail11.pair.com> <6dbe3c380911210748p4b0fb645i19e2755af2d45f95@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B085A2C.5050509@telus.net> Brian Lanning wrote: > On Sat, Nov 21, 2009 at 8:31 AM, Dave Taylor wrote: > > >> My gut feeling was water+electronics = bad... It seems pretty unfounded >> looking all the advice from this list. >> >> > > water + electronics + electricity = bad. This is because it causes short > circuits that can fry components. As long as its completely dry, there's no > water to cause the shorts. The other problem is corrosion. Pure water > wouldn't do that, but all the other crud floating around in water is left on > the component when water dries, encouraging corrosion. This is why you wash > it off with a solvent (that doesn't leave deposits of its own). > > brian > > No, it is not water + electronics + electricity that is bad, in fact it is "dissolved stuff in water" + electronics + electricity = bad. Pure or clean water is rarely a serious risk, is you have hard water, then washing the board with tap water could be a problem... However as Shaun (Wulf) confirmed I have heard of many manufacturers of small production run PCBs that wash their boards after assembly in the dishwasher - hence water soluble flux - as a matter of normal operations. So if the board is covered in crud, and the crud is water soluble, then as long as your water has no cloudy sediments there should be little risk to the electronics with running the board through a dishwasher (ask your partner first!). Note that Dip switches, potentiometers etc. need some sealant/tape to keep them from getting the crud washed inside... John :-#)# -- John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9 Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, VideoGames) www.flippers.com "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out" From snhirsch at gmail.com Sat Nov 21 15:46:04 2009 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2009 16:46:04 -0500 (EST) Subject: Great haul! Message-ID: Today I became the proud owner of: - Northstar Horizon w/ 2x 5.25" built-in drives + mucho software Haven't had a chance to pop the cover and inventory the boards. - Sony SMC-70 w/ 3 boxes of binders and software A nice little CP/M system with built-in 3.5" diskette drives - Morrow 8" external hard drive This looks to be an MFM interface, or at least it has a 34-pin + 20-pin header on the rear panel. Anyone familiar with it? And the strangest one of all: - OSM "Zeus" I'm told this was a multi-user business computer from the early 80s, but the person who gave it to me had no documentation or other information on it. Oh, and about 40 boxes of 8" SS/SD NOS diskettes still sealed in plastic and about 10-20 boxes of 8" SS/SD hard-sectored diskettes, most still sealed. I'm not sure I really need all the diskettes and may offer them for the price of shipping - stay tuned. Also, 4-5 large shelf bins full of 8" application master diskettes and the entire CPM-UG collection. This will all take a while to go through. Steve -- From snhirsch at gmail.com Sat Nov 21 15:50:41 2009 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2009 16:50:41 -0500 (EST) Subject: Free DEC VT-180 "Robin" Message-ID: I need to clear some room and would like to give away this system to anyone who wants to drive to Burlington, VT and pick it up: - VT-180 main unit in reasonably clean condition (has DEC logo dust cover and has been covered while in storage. - Keyboard also with DEC logo cover in pristine physical condition - (2) Dual 5.25" external floppy drives - Large box full of system masters, application software and all docs. - All cables for connection of drives to system unit. Caveat: I was given this unit about 8 years ago as what was claimed to be a working system and have never powered it up. Nor am I planning to now. If not claimed by the end of the year, it's going (with a heavy heart) to the local electronics recycler. Steve -- From chrise at pobox.com Sat Nov 21 07:44:11 2009 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2009 07:44:11 -0600 Subject: Hard-sector discs -- how many sectors? In-Reply-To: <4B0732D2.4020706@philpem.me.uk> References: <4B0732D2.4020706@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <20091121134411.GI19760@n0jcf.net> On Saturday (11/21/2009 at 12:22AM +0000), Philip Pemberton wrote: > > It does look like someone's had a go at something similar to what I was > thinking of: http://www.lesbird.com/sebhc/storage/storage.html > Look under the heading "Hard Sector Floppy Emulator". hey... ya! that's me... HSFE emulates 10-hole hard-sector media using a 3.5" floppy drive for Heath H8 and H89 systems. Should work for Northstar and any others that used 10-hole media too. I'm soon to do another firmware that will do 16-hole emulation as I have an S-100 system wtih an early Micropolis controller in it (for 1015-II drives) that used 16-hole hard-sectored media. It works. Works really well actually. You have to use a 3.5" drive though because the speed is far more constant/stable than you'd find with a 5.25" drive. I do it all by looking at the index pulse. This circuit does not get into the data path so has no read/write capability itself. Chris -- Chris Elmquist From philpem at philpem.me.uk Sat Nov 21 18:45:49 2009 From: philpem at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2009 00:45:49 +0000 Subject: Disc analyser status update -- it works! Message-ID: <4B0889BD.3000300@philpem.me.uk> Quick status update before I go to bed... The analyser is now reading discs. All the buffer data seems valid, and the nifty "so simple I can't believe I didn't think of it first" counter-rollover algorithm proposed by Peter Coghlan seems to work really nicely too. I've dumped track zero from a DOS 1.4MB floppy and (after a quick bit of histogram analysis) it looks like valid MFM data. I'm seeing a big spike at ~2us, a second, smaller, spike at ~3us, and a third, even smaller spike at ~4us. The last spike is only just noticeable on a linear graph scale -- probably due to the large number of 2us "hits" (39,000 in a 90,000 sample acquisition). On a log scale it's a lot more visible. I haven't tried decoding the data yet, but that's next on the list. Writing isn't implemented yet (I need to do a partial-rewrite and redesign of the disc writer state machine) but I'm quite happy with how this has turned out thus far. I'd post screenshots, but console apps don't tend to make very interesting screenshots... (I'd also cross-post this to VCforum, but I'm too tired to remember my password) Cheers, -- Phil. philpem at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Sun Nov 22 05:17:06 2009 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2009 03:17:06 -0800 (PST) Subject: Free DEC VT-180 "Robin" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, 21 Nov 2009, Steven Hirsch wrote: > I need to clear some room and would like to give away this system to anyone > who wants to drive to Burlington, VT and pick it up: > > - VT-180 main unit in reasonably clean condition (has DEC logo dust cover and > has been covered while in storage. > > - Keyboard also with DEC logo cover in pristine physical condition > > - (2) Dual 5.25" external floppy drives > > - Large box full of system masters, application software and all docs. > > - All cables for connection of drives to system unit. > > Caveat: I was given this unit about 8 years ago as what was claimed to > be a working system and have never powered it up. Nor am I planning to > now. > > If not claimed by the end of the year, it's going (with a heavy heart) > to the local electronics recycler. I'm interested in paying for the time and expense of shipping this to California. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Nov 22 11:05:21 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2009 17:05:21 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Hard-sector discs -- how many sectors? In-Reply-To: <20091121154302.Y36622@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Nov 21, 9 03:44:09 pm Message-ID: > > On Sat, 21 Nov 2009, Tony Duell wrote: > > The hole sizes are somwhat different (in particlar the hole in the > > hjacket is smaller than 5mmm). The 3" disk has a hard plasic case with an > > intenral shutter, mechancially superior to the 3.5" one. Openin the > > shutter (done by a slider on the side of the disk which catches on a hook > > when you put the disk in the drive) also exposes the index hole. The hole > > is in the magnetic media itself, not in the plastic hub or anything like > > that. > > Also, the SS media is explicitly flippy > FAIKL there's no such thing as SS 3" _media_ -- all the disks are coated (and tested) om both sides. There is 40 cylinder and 80 cylinder media. and Amstrad (the main user of 3" drives) confused the situation by using single-head 40 cylinder drives and double-head 80 cylinder drives only. So the 80 cylinder disks got known as the double-sided ones. However, 40 cylinder double-head drives exist, I've used them. The plastic shell of the 3" disk has an offset notch in the front edge. A double-head drive has a metal bracket that fits into this notch, so you can't put the disk in 'flipped'. A single-head drive either ingores this notch or has a light barrier to detect it -- the single-head drive in my Tatung Einstein has am 'in use' LED that is red if the disk is in one way up and green if it's in the other way up. This means, of course, that a double-head drive can't read the flip side of a single-head disk. You can't flip the disk to read it with head 0 (because of the bracket) and you can't read it with head 1 because the disk is effectively turning the wrong way. AFAIK this is the only type of disk that has this problem (Yes, 8" dishs have the index hole in a different place on single and doubled sided media, but every 8" double-head drive I've seen has 2 index sensrs so as to be able to handle single-sided media too) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Nov 22 11:16:56 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2009 17:16:56 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Got two RK05's, looking for a PDP-8 or 11 In-Reply-To: <4E4A6238436C454482FC5093BCB8E91F@sparks> from "John Ball" at Nov 21, 9 09:46:12 pm Message-ID: > > I managed to locate two nicely working RK05J drives (though the voice > coil/head assemblies were removed but I'm trying to get two more from Err, how on earth do you know they work if there are no heads or linear postiioner? Mind you, most other faults can be repaired. Another common problem, at least in the UK, is breakdown of the insulation on the blower motor. This can result in flames. THe motor is almost impossible to rewind (OK, somebody will prove me wrong), but it's not too critical, so you can normally find something that will replace it. > another guy but damn, those things apparently weigh 80 pounds alone! Well, they're heavy, but I didn't think they were that heavy. Maybe 80Lbs for the 2 postiioners. > Think > of the shipping costs! D:) and now I'm really intent on finding either a > PDP-8 or PDP-11 Omnibus system I can run them with. I have been trying = You cna use RK05s with (at least) PDP8 Omnibus machines (with an RK8E controller which is 3 quad boards and top connectors. And a cable to the drives) PDP11 Unibus machines (RK11-C (backplane of flip-chip cards or RK11-D (4 quad cards in a special system unit backplane) controllers) PSP11 Q=bus machines (RKV11-D controller. This is a separate box with 4 quad cards in it and cables to a Q-bus slot and the drive. It's not easy to find a complete one!0 > Also, I received only the drives. I saw several flip chips in the thing = > and > a single empty slot. I'm assuming that the flip chips are the controller = No. The boards in the drive are handle the positioner control, talking to the heads, etc The interface (which is on a pair of parallel dual slots so you can daisy-chain the drives, you put a M930 terminator card in the unused slot of the last drive) has 'raw' read and wrtie data lines, write gate, drive select lines (either 3 bit inary or 1-of-4, an 8 it us to select the cylinde to seek to, etc). The controller is machine-specific (see above). The RK11-C is, IIRC, aout 100 flip-chip cards. The others are smaller in board count :-) -tony From hachti at hachti.de Sun Nov 22 13:26:52 2009 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2009 20:26:52 +0100 Subject: Siemens stuff in Kiel Message-ID: <4B09907C.6030204@hachti.de> Hi folks, there are some Siemens items in Kiel. Free for pickup. Will go to scrap if nobody wants them. The first two pictures: http://pdp8.hachti.de/gallery/endangered_stuff There's also a big printer (one TON!!) in another room. That unit's future will be the scrapyard as well if nobody is interested in it. Best wishes, Philipp -- http://www.hachti.de From pontus at update.uu.se Sun Nov 22 15:14:44 2009 From: pontus at update.uu.se (Pontus) Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2009 22:14:44 +0100 Subject: Siemens stuff in Kiel In-Reply-To: <4B09907C.6030204@hachti.de> References: <4B09907C.6030204@hachti.de> Message-ID: <4B09A9C4.3080606@update.uu.se> Hi. I'm in no position to rescue any of the stuff. But curious about a few things. Is it an ASR-33 on this picture? And is it that two VT78 or two VT52?: http://pdp8.hachti.de/gallery/endangered_stuff/img_0152_1024.jpg On the last picture: http://pdp8.hachti.de/gallery/endangered_stuff/img_0357_1024.jpg I can see what looks like a Norsk Data keyboard, is there any ND related stuff there? Is the Kongsberg labeled stuff in any way related to that? When will this stuff be scrapped? Kind regards, Pontus. Philipp Hachtmann wrote: > Hi folks, > > there are some Siemens items in Kiel. Free for pickup. Will go to > scrap if nobody wants them. > The first two pictures: > http://pdp8.hachti.de/gallery/endangered_stuff > > There's also a big printer (one TON!!) in another room. That unit's > future will be the scrapyard as well if nobody is interested in it. > > Best wishes, > > Philipp > From snhirsch at gmail.com Sun Nov 22 09:05:39 2009 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2009 10:05:39 -0500 (EST) Subject: Great haul! OMS Zues In-Reply-To: <112220090432.4344.4B08BEC2000A3197000010F822230703729B0A02D29B9B0EBF9B0809079D99D309@att.net> References: <4b08922c.e302be0a.19a6.7a2f@mx.google.com> <112220090432.4344.4B08BEC2000A3197000010F822230703729B0A02D29B9B0EBF9B0809079D99D309@att.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 22 Nov 2009, g-wright at att.net wrote: >> And the strangest one of all: >> >> - OSM "Zeus" >> >> I'm told this was a multi-user business computer from the early 80s, but >> the person who gave it to me had no documentation or other information on >> it. > If this is a small beige metal box with a wood top cover, it is a > Zeus 4. I have been looking for anything for the 1 I have for > years. mine has a bad hard drive. They where used in video stores > around here in the 1980's. Yes, I believe this is a Zeus 4. The hard drive is missing from the unit, so perhaps that's the reason it was trashed. I saw one remark on line that claimed it used a "Z800" CPU, but suspect they really meant "Z80" :-). Steve -- From elazzerini at interfree.it Sun Nov 22 15:06:24 2009 From: elazzerini at interfree.it (Enrico Lazzerini) Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2009 22:06:24 +0100 Subject: I: VINTAGE: BIGBOARD 1 & SWP DSDD ADAPTER Message-ID: <26D961E909DE4758B92CA18BC5534B3C@enrico> Hi at all, it past much time during i collected all useful info on this my old board putting all on my website http://elazzerini.interfree.it I hope to can make my board alive soon. A friend given to me all its 32 x 4116 DRAM chips after to have checked all of them. I buyed on ebay the SWP Double side double density adapter http://elazzerini.interfree.it/Foto560.jpg and i here to ask: is there anyone who could indicate where or how to gain the firmware for the bigboard 1 to can make this adapter working or just to gain its 27 original manual? Thanks for any kind of useful suggestion and please sorry for my not perfect English. Enrico Lazzerini - Pisa - Italy From ball.of.john at gmail.com Sun Nov 22 19:46:10 2009 From: ball.of.john at gmail.com (John Ball) Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2009 17:46:10 -0800 Subject: Got two RK05's, looking for a PDP-8 or 11 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3F261A3EC63C49D4AB63AC82F0E46140@sparks> >If the head/voice coil assemblies have been removed you'll have to go >through the entire alignment procedure which requires a special >alignment pack. You'll also want to make sure that all of the dreaded >"DEC foam" has been removed and replaced or you're heads and packs >won't last long. You'll also want to look at the filters and make >sure they're in good shape and replace them (if you can find them). >However, bad filters will also kill the heads and packs. > >If the head/voice coil assemblies have been removed how do you know >that the drives are working? I noticed that foam almost immediately, I cleaned up the majority but I'll probably go over the thing with a scraper and the air compressor. I got the same nasty foam in my SGI Crimson. Well at the very least the drive powers up with no nasty smells or noises or the fault lamp and I can get the spindle motor to spin up >They're one of the standard DEC lamps. I don't recall off the top of >my head what the equivalent lamp # is but they (or a reasonable >facsimile) are readily available. Awesome, that might be a bit better as well. >For an omnibus PDP-8 you need an RK-8E controller that goes in the >omnibus chassis. The "hard" part is finding the cable that goes from >the RK-8E and the drive. For a PDP-11 (unibus) you need an RK-11D >controller. It is actually a 4 board set in it's own backplane that >goes in the CPU chassis. There is also an RK-11C for unibus but that >controller is of the "old style" that has 40 or so flip chips in a >rack width backplane and is mounted outside of the CPU chassis in a >rack (requires a separate power supply) that connects to the CPU with >unibus cables. Hmm, that might be a bit of a problem as I never see spare flip chips or anything unless they are on ebay for funky prices. >If you're not looking for a "blinken" lights machine, you're best bet >would probably be an 11/34 system. I have several that are "spares" >but right now I'm swamped and haven't been able to spend any time on >classic computer stuff. > >TTFN - Guy Well right now I'll go for pretty much anything. I guess a 34 or similar is a good starter system and on some distant day I'll switch to say an 8/e. John From ggs at shiresoft.com Sun Nov 22 20:30:01 2009 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2009 18:30:01 -0800 Subject: Got two RK05's, looking for a PDP-8 or 11 In-Reply-To: <3F261A3EC63C49D4AB63AC82F0E46140@sparks> References: <3F261A3EC63C49D4AB63AC82F0E46140@sparks> Message-ID: <6734E595-E292-453C-94A4-09AA4D9DEABC@shiresoft.com> On Nov 22, 2009, at 5:46 PM, John Ball wrote: >> If the head/voice coil assemblies have been removed you'll have to go >> through the entire alignment procedure which requires a special >> alignment pack. You'll also want to make sure that all of the >> dreaded >> "DEC foam" has been removed and replaced or you're heads and packs >> won't last long. You'll also want to look at the filters and make >> sure they're in good shape and replace them (if you can find them). >> However, bad filters will also kill the heads and packs. >> >> If the head/voice coil assemblies have been removed how do you know >> that the drives are working? > > I noticed that foam almost immediately, I cleaned up the majority > but I'll > probably go over the thing with a scraper and the air compressor. I > got the > same nasty foam in my SGI Crimson. > Well at the very least the drive powers up with no nasty smells or > noises or > the fault lamp and I can get the spindle motor to spin up You have to replace the various "gaskets" that were made from that foam in order to get the proper airflow through the drive so that the heads "float". Failure to replace them will result in a head crash due to insufficient air flowing over the heads. I replace them with a closed cell foam (what was used originally was open cell foam). Closed cell will tend not to turn into black dust. I use closed cell weather sealing that you can find in most hardware stores. It has the advantage of also having an adhesive strip on one side to have it adhere. I've been meaning to do a writeup (with pictures) on how to do this on RK05's but time constraints have prevented it. The one thing you want to do is make absolutely sure that you've cleaned all of the old foam and adhesive off. It usually involves some disassembly of the drive around the airflow channels to be able to get at the parts (they're easier to clean once they're off the drive). All of the time is involved in getting the old stuff off. I can now put new foam in a drive and have it running again in about half an hour (any additional time is spent getting the old stuff off). > >> They're one of the standard DEC lamps. I don't recall off the top of >> my head what the equivalent lamp # is but they (or a reasonable >> facsimile) are readily available. > > Awesome, that might be a bit better as well. > >> For an omnibus PDP-8 you need an RK-8E controller that goes in the >> omnibus chassis. The "hard" part is finding the cable that goes from >> the RK-8E and the drive. For a PDP-11 (unibus) you need an RK-11D >> controller. It is actually a 4 board set in it's own backplane that >> goes in the CPU chassis. There is also an RK-11C for unibus but that >> controller is of the "old style" that has 40 or so flip chips in a >> rack width backplane and is mounted outside of the CPU chassis in a >> rack (requires a separate power supply) that connects to the CPU with >> unibus cables. > > Hmm, that might be a bit of a problem as I never see spare flip > chips or > anything unless they are on ebay for funky prices. > >> If you're not looking for a "blinken" lights machine, you're best bet >> would probably be an 11/34 system. I have several that are "spares" >> but right now I'm swamped and haven't been able to spend any time on >> classic computer stuff. >> >> TTFN - Guy > > Well right now I'll go for pretty much anything. I guess a 34 or > similar is > a good starter system and on some distant day I'll switch to say an > 8/e. I've been selling nice (tested) 11/34 cpus for ~$350. Expect an 8/e to be in the $1000's (those I don't have spares of). TTFN - Guy From hachti at hachti.de Sun Nov 22 21:27:17 2009 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 04:27:17 +0100 Subject: Siemens stuff in Kiel In-Reply-To: <4B09A9C4.3080606@update.uu.se> References: <4B09907C.6030204@hachti.de> <4B09A9C4.3080606@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <4B0A0115.8050803@hachti.de> Hi, > things. Is it an ASR-33 on this picture? And is it that two VT78 or two > VT52?: > http://pdp8.hachti.de/gallery/endangered_stuff/img_0152_1024.jpg It is a Siemens T100S teleprinter. 5 bit with mechanical keyboard buffer and automatic letters/figures shift insertion.... Yes, those are VT5x. But they will be kept. > http://pdp8.hachti.de/gallery/endangered_stuff/img_0357_1024.jpg > I can see what looks like a Norsk Data keyboard, is there any ND related > stuff there? Is the Kongsberg labeled stuff in any way related to that? Puh.. I have no Idea... The Kongsberg is located in a room that's not part of my job. I will have to ask. Philipp -- http://www.hachti.de From axelsson at acc.umu.se Sun Nov 22 20:11:43 2009 From: axelsson at acc.umu.se (=?ISO-8859-15?Q?G=F6ran_Axelsson?=) Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 03:11:43 +0100 Subject: Siemens stuff in Kiel In-Reply-To: <4B09A9C4.3080606@update.uu.se> References: <4B09907C.6030204@hachti.de> <4B09A9C4.3080606@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <4B09EF5F.8050209@acc.umu.se> Eagle Eye Pontus! Nice spoting! It surely looks like a Tandberg keyboard used by Norsk Data. If I have understood the scattered pieces of early Norwegian computer history right then Kongsberg V?penfabrikk AS and Norsk Data AS were direct competitors in the early years around 1970. Later on ND concentrated on the mini computers while they bought and rebranded the peripherals from other makers. Kongsberg dropped the computers and started to make peripherals and develop software. In 1987 ND takes over the software branch from Kongsberg. Ok, now I'm only waiting for all corrections. :-) Too bad I'm so far from that Kongsberg machine. It should definitely be saved in some way. Is it a complete machine? Is it a computer or some peripheral? How big is it? Any software, documentation or tapes left for it? Is there any way to tell the age of it? /G?ran Pontus wrote: > Hi. > > I'm in no position to rescue any of the stuff. But curious about a few > things. Is it an ASR-33 on this picture? And is it that two VT78 or two > VT52?: > > http://pdp8.hachti.de/gallery/endangered_stuff/img_0152_1024.jpg > > On the last picture: > > http://pdp8.hachti.de/gallery/endangered_stuff/img_0357_1024.jpg > > I can see what looks like a Norsk Data keyboard, is there any ND related > stuff there? Is the Kongsberg labeled stuff in any way related to that? > > When will this stuff be scrapped? > > Kind regards, > Pontus. > > Philipp Hachtmann wrote: > >> Hi folks, >> >> there are some Siemens items in Kiel. Free for pickup. Will go to >> scrap if nobody wants them. >> The first two pictures: >> http://pdp8.hachti.de/gallery/endangered_stuff >> >> There's also a big printer (one TON!!) in another room. That unit's >> future will be the scrapyard as well if nobody is interested in it. >> >> Best wishes, >> >> Philipp >> >> > > From christian_liendo at yahoo.com Mon Nov 23 07:57:26 2009 From: christian_liendo at yahoo.com (Christian Liendo) Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 05:57:26 -0800 (PST) Subject: DEC Microcomputer Challenge film In-Reply-To: <4B085A2C.5050509@telus.net> Message-ID: <306780.6449.qm@web113517.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> http://www.fanboy.com/2009/11/dec-pc-challenge-1982.html This is an promotional film produced by Digital Equipment Corporation (DEC) documents their attempt to enter the PC market in 1982. DEC owned a major chunk of the mini-computer market and to their credit they got the idea that the PC was the wave of the future and they knew they had to compete. From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Mon Nov 23 09:28:15 2009 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 15:28:15 +0000 Subject: Looking for some floppy disc analysis tools Message-ID: <4B0AAA0F.1050600@philpem.me.uk> Hi guys, Before I start writing a data decoder of my own (for the disc analyser), I'd rather like to at least make sure the hardware is spitting out sane data. Does anyone know of a tool along the lines of cw2dmk that can accept timing-data input from a file instead of using (e.g.) a Catweasel? I was going to do the hardware tests with cw2dmk, but I don't fancy my chances at figuring out how the ~2500 lines of code fits together, and how to patch in read-from-file support... (Apologies if cw2dmk actually /can/ do this; the manpage explains how to change the output file name, Catweasel port and such, but not how to make cw2dmk read transition timing data from a file) Thanks, -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From shumaker at att.net Mon Nov 23 11:38:45 2009 From: shumaker at att.net (shumaker at att.net) Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 17:38:45 +0000 Subject: vintage Pertec tape drive in Oxnard In-Reply-To: <3F261A3EC63C49D4AB63AC82F0E46140@sparks> References: <3F261A3EC63C49D4AB63AC82F0E46140@sparks> Message-ID: <112320091738.21431.4B0AC8A4000EFAFE000053B722230706129B0A02D29B9B0EBF9D0A050E039A089C@att.net> Item #1476519348 on Ventura Craigslist info from ad: Pertec Tape Drive - Vintage 10" Reel to Reel Data Recorder - $100 (Oxnard) This is a vintage Pertec data recorder tape drive. M/N T8840A-9-37.5 P/N 902857-01 C2 S/N 351524781 round military connectors steve From glen.slick at gmail.com Mon Nov 23 13:22:56 2009 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 11:22:56 -0800 Subject: vintage Pertec tape drive in Oxnard In-Reply-To: <112320091738.21431.4B0AC8A4000EFAFE000053B722230706129B0A02D29B9B0EBF9D0A050E039A089C@att.net> References: <3F261A3EC63C49D4AB63AC82F0E46140@sparks> <112320091738.21431.4B0AC8A4000EFAFE000053B722230706129B0A02D29B9B0EBF9D0A050E039A089C@att.net> Message-ID: <1e1fc3e90911231122y140f3022m2bd5d7ef85114c16@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 9:38 AM, wrote: > ?Item #1476519348 on Ventura Craigslist > > info from ad: > > Pertec Tape Drive - Vintage 10" Reel to Reel Data Recorder - $100 (Oxnard) > > This is a vintage Pertec data recorder tape drive. > M/N T8840A-9-37.5 > P/N 902857-01 C2 > S/N 351524781 http://ventura.craigslist.org/sys/1476519348.html http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/pertec/103380M_T8x40A-T8x60A_Aug82.pdf M/N T8840A-9-37.5 T = Tape Product 8 = 8000 Series (Tension Arm) 8 = Highest Data Density Handled 32c/mm (800 cpi) 40 = Head Type Read After Write (Dual Stack) 9 = 9-track 37.5 = Tape Speed 0.953 m/s (37.5 ips) No idea what the formatter is that is attached to the transport. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Nov 23 13:28:26 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 19:28:26 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Got two RK05's, looking for a PDP-8 or 11 In-Reply-To: <3F261A3EC63C49D4AB63AC82F0E46140@sparks> from "John Ball" at Nov 22, 9 05:46:10 pm Message-ID: > > >If the head/voice coil assemblies have been removed you'll have to go =20 > >through the entire alignment procedure which requires a special =20 > >alignment pack. You'll also want to make sure that all of the dreaded = My expeirience is that if you have a drive with a correctly-aligned positioner/head assemly, you can remove it as an assembly, and put it back in _the same drive_ and it will still be alighed. But if you move positioenrs between drives you have to do a realignment. The alignment procedure is not hard if oyu have the alignment pack. You also need a 'scope (but just aout any 'scope will do) and a way of moving the heads to a particular cylinder and selecting head 0 or head 1. I had no prolems using a PDP11 + the appropriate controller for this, just togging values int oteh controller registers from the PDP11's font panel. If you use a PDP9/e, I think you have to write a trivial program for this. > Well right now I'll go for pretty much anything. I guess a 34 or similar = > is > a good starter system and on some distant day I'll switch to say an 8/e. THe disk packs are different between the PDP8 and PDP11 systems. They're hard-sectored (by notches in a metal ring on the disk hub), PDP11 packs are 12-sectory, PDP8 packs are 16 sector. The former are _much_ easier to find. -tony From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Nov 23 14:03:18 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 12:03:18 -0800 (PST) Subject: DEC Microcomputer Challenge film In-Reply-To: <306780.6449.qm@web113517.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <306780.6449.qm@web113517.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20091123115256.I10329@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 23 Nov 2009, Christian Liendo wrote: > http://www.fanboy.com/2009/11/dec-pc-challenge-1982.html > This is an promotional film produced by Digital Equipment Corporation > (DEC) documents their attempt to enter the PC market in 1982. DEC owned > a major chunk of the mini-computer market and to their credit they got > the idea that the PC was the wave of the future and they knew they had > to compete. does the phrase "kicking and screaming" ring a bell? What did Ken Olson say about a computer on your desk, or in your home? besides "The personal computer will fall flat on its face in business." From brianlanning at gmail.com Mon Nov 23 14:52:03 2009 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 14:52:03 -0600 Subject: isa 486 computer-on-a-board type things Message-ID: <6dbe3c380911231252k4c19a0d9tfd6bf45a695aec87@mail.gmail.com> Hi Everyone. I have no idea what these things are called. They show up on ebay all the time and look like entire 486 machines on a full-length 16-bit isa card. I'm assuming these are designed to be plugged into a passive back plane. I've always wanted to tinker with a computer of this design, but I haven't had any exposure to them. Is there anything I should look for or avoid before trying to buy one of these boards? Thanks. brian From oltmansg at bellsouth.net Mon Nov 23 15:14:01 2009 From: oltmansg at bellsouth.net (geoffrey oltmans) Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 13:14:01 -0800 (PST) Subject: isa 486 computer-on-a-board type things In-Reply-To: <6dbe3c380911231252k4c19a0d9tfd6bf45a695aec87@mail.gmail.com> References: <6dbe3c380911231252k4c19a0d9tfd6bf45a695aec87@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <853223.38618.qm@web83902.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Sounds like a single board computer. These type of things are used in the embedded market... stuff like automation, defense industries, etc. They sell newer ones these days with PCI or PCI Express, PC/104 connections. Never used them before either. Here's one such vendor... http://www.emacinc.com/sbc_pc.htm ________________________________ From: Brian Lanning To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Sent: Mon, November 23, 2009 2:52:03 PM Subject: isa 486 computer-on-a-board type things Hi Everyone. I have no idea what these things are called. They show up on ebay all the time and look like entire 486 machines on a full-length 16-bit isa card. I'm assuming these are designed to be plugged into a passive back plane. I've always wanted to tinker with a computer of this design, but I haven't had any exposure to them. Is there anything I should look for or avoid before trying to buy one of these boards? Thanks. brian From brianlanning at gmail.com Mon Nov 23 15:32:10 2009 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 15:32:10 -0600 Subject: isa 486 computer-on-a-board type things In-Reply-To: <853223.38618.qm@web83902.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <6dbe3c380911231252k4c19a0d9tfd6bf45a695aec87@mail.gmail.com> <853223.38618.qm@web83902.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6dbe3c380911231332y375a1e88v660cf3a50c8812ed@mail.gmail.com> Yes, single board computers. I remembered it after I clicked send. That's a broader term than what I'm talking about I think though. I'm thinking something like this: http://cgi.ebay.com/P3-Single-Board-Computer-700Mhz-SBC-256-Ram-NON-DOA_W0QQitemZ300361013475QQcmdZViewItemQQptZMotherboards?hash=item45eee958e3 ...mixed with something like this: http://cgi.ebay.com/New-Advantech-20-Slot-Backplane-11-PCI-7-ISA-1-PICMG_W0QQitemZ400085310545QQcmdZViewItemQQptZCOMP_EN_Networking_Components?hash=item5d26f15c51 Or maybe something older and isa-only for use with linux or freedos and mame. I'm worried that for the isa/pci combo boards, the distance between the isa and pci connectors on the bridge slots might not line up. brian On Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 3:14 PM, geoffrey oltmans wrote: > Sounds like a single board computer. These type of things are used in the > embedded market... stuff like automation, defense industries, etc. > > > They sell newer ones these days with PCI or PCI Express, PC/104 > connections. Never used them before either. > > Here's one such vendor... > http://www.emacinc.com/sbc_pc.htm > > > > ________________________________ > From: Brian Lanning > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> > Sent: Mon, November 23, 2009 2:52:03 PM > Subject: isa 486 computer-on-a-board type things > > Hi Everyone. I have no idea what these things are called. They show up on > ebay all the time and look like entire 486 machines on a full-length 16-bit > isa card. I'm assuming these are designed to be plugged into a passive > back > plane. > > I've always wanted to tinker with a computer of this design, but I haven't > had any exposure to them. Is there anything I should look for or avoid > before trying to buy one of these boards? Thanks. > > brian > From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Mon Nov 23 16:51:23 2009 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 19:51:23 -0300 Subject: isa 486 computer-on-a-board type things References: <6dbe3c380911231252k4c19a0d9tfd6bf45a695aec87@mail.gmail.com><853223.38618.qm@web83902.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <6dbe3c380911231332y375a1e88v660cf3a50c8812ed@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <010101ca6c8f$ab30ddb0$04000100@Alexandre> > Yes, single board computers. I remembered it after I clicked send. > That's > a broader term than what I'm talking about I think though. Eh...great...but... Why? You can get better systems for cheaper, and less clunky. Why use something like that? BTW, anyone can enlight me, why these system-on-a-board were made? From ploopster at gmail.com Mon Nov 23 15:59:59 2009 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 16:59:59 -0500 Subject: isa 486 computer-on-a-board type things In-Reply-To: <010101ca6c8f$ab30ddb0$04000100@Alexandre> References: <6dbe3c380911231252k4c19a0d9tfd6bf45a695aec87@mail.gmail.com><853223.38618.qm@web83902.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <6dbe3c380911231332y375a1e88v660cf3a50c8812ed@mail.gmail.com> <010101ca6c8f$ab30ddb0$04000100@Alexandre> Message-ID: <4B0B05DF.4070008@gmail.com> Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >> Yes, single board computers. I remembered it after I clicked send. >> That's >> a broader term than what I'm talking about I think though. > > Eh...great...but... > > Why? > > You can get better systems for cheaper, and less clunky. Why use > something like that? > > BTW, anyone can enlight me, why these system-on-a-board were made? Lots of slots. If the system board goes bad, you can replace just the system board instead of taking the whole machine apart to replace the backplane. Peace... Sridhar From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Nov 23 16:01:27 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 17:01:27 -0500 Subject: isa 486 computer-on-a-board type things In-Reply-To: <010101ca6c8f$ab30ddb0$04000100@Alexandre> References: <6dbe3c380911231252k4c19a0d9tfd6bf45a695aec87@mail.gmail.com><853223.38618.qm@web83902.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <6dbe3c380911231332y375a1e88v660cf3a50c8812ed@mail.gmail.com> <010101ca6c8f$ab30ddb0$04000100@Alexandre> Message-ID: On Nov 23, 2009, at 5:51 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >> Yes, single board computers. I remembered it after I clicked >> send. That's >> a broader term than what I'm talking about I think though. > > Eh...great...but... > > Why? > > You can get better systems for cheaper, and less clunky. Why use > something like that? > > BTW, anyone can enlight me, why these system-on-a-board were made? Primarily for embedded applications. They're not intended as general-purpose "desktop" computers. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From brianlanning at gmail.com Mon Nov 23 16:03:29 2009 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 16:03:29 -0600 Subject: isa 486 computer-on-a-board type things In-Reply-To: <010101ca6c8f$ab30ddb0$04000100@Alexandre> References: <6dbe3c380911231252k4c19a0d9tfd6bf45a695aec87@mail.gmail.com> <853223.38618.qm@web83902.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <6dbe3c380911231332y375a1e88v660cf3a50c8812ed@mail.gmail.com> <010101ca6c8f$ab30ddb0$04000100@Alexandre> Message-ID: <6dbe3c380911231403t2df5e1a5u31e05de87f97cbc1@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 4:51 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas < pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com> wrote: > Eh...great...but... > > Why? > > You can get better systems for cheaper, and less clunky. Why use > something like that? > > BTW, anyone can enlight me, why these system-on-a-board were made? > Because it's there. :-) It appears that a lot were used in phone systems. I just want something unique an interesting. One of my fetishes is installing as much hardware into a single computer as possible while still making it all work. Although with ISA slots and IRQ madness, that might be borderline masochism. By the way, if anyone has a source for an inexpensive 16-bit isa extender board set with cables, please let me know. brian From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Mon Nov 23 17:07:48 2009 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 20:07:48 -0300 Subject: isa 486 computer-on-a-board type things References: <6dbe3c380911231252k4c19a0d9tfd6bf45a695aec87@mail.gmail.com><853223.38618.qm@web83902.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <6dbe3c380911231332y375a1e88v660cf3a50c8812ed@mail.gmail.com><010101ca6c8f$ab30ddb0$04000100@Alexandre> <4B0B05DF.4070008@gmail.com> Message-ID: <013201ca6c91$d62a8910$04000100@Alexandre> >> BTW, anyone can enlight me, why these system-on-a-board were made? > Lots of slots. If the system board goes bad, you can replace just the > system board instead of taking the whole machine apart to replace the > backplane. Hmm, seems me a good proposition :oD Now that you said that, I see how interesting it is/was But how it cares with the PCI slot selection line? From brianlanning at gmail.com Mon Nov 23 16:11:41 2009 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 16:11:41 -0600 Subject: isa 486 computer-on-a-board type things In-Reply-To: References: <6dbe3c380911231252k4c19a0d9tfd6bf45a695aec87@mail.gmail.com> <853223.38618.qm@web83902.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <6dbe3c380911231332y375a1e88v660cf3a50c8812ed@mail.gmail.com> <010101ca6c8f$ab30ddb0$04000100@Alexandre> Message-ID: <6dbe3c380911231411g2f481ab4nd896f0419a7a71b7@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 4:01 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > Primarily for embedded applications. They're not intended as > general-purpose "desktop" computers. > > -Dave > Some of them look really proprietary while others seem to have the normal compliment of PC compatible internal and external ports. I worry about the bios though. I might have to swap in the bios from a more garden variety motherboard, if that would even work. Ideally, I'd like to buy one with all the memory and processors already installed and have it just work like a normal PC, albeit with a huge number of slots and a goofy form factor. brian From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Nov 23 16:16:31 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 17:16:31 -0500 Subject: isa 486 computer-on-a-board type things In-Reply-To: <6dbe3c380911231411g2f481ab4nd896f0419a7a71b7@mail.gmail.com> References: <6dbe3c380911231252k4c19a0d9tfd6bf45a695aec87@mail.gmail.com> <853223.38618.qm@web83902.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <6dbe3c380911231332y375a1e88v660cf3a50c8812ed@mail.gmail.com> <010101ca6c8f$ab30ddb0$04000100@Alexandre> <6dbe3c380911231411g2f481ab4nd896f0419a7a71b7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Nov 23, 2009, at 5:11 PM, Brian Lanning wrote: >> Primarily for embedded applications. They're not intended as >> general-purpose "desktop" computers. > > Some of them look really proprietary while others seem to have the > normal > compliment of PC compatible internal and external ports. Nearly all of them do, but they may be on other types of connectors. > I worry about the > bios though. I might have to swap in the bios from a more garden > variety > motherboard, if that would even work. Huh? Why? > Ideally, I'd like to buy one with all > the memory and processors already installed and have it just work > like a > normal PC, albeit with a huge number of slots and a goofy form factor. Well. I'd not get too excited about them. They're just PCs, nothing special. They were (and still are) used in lots of high- density and embedded applications where the designers were too lazy to use a real embedded computer. There's nothing particularly special about these machines. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From oltmansg at bellsouth.net Mon Nov 23 16:20:29 2009 From: oltmansg at bellsouth.net (geoffrey oltmans) Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 14:20:29 -0800 (PST) Subject: isa 486 computer-on-a-board type things In-Reply-To: References: <6dbe3c380911231252k4c19a0d9tfd6bf45a695aec87@mail.gmail.com> <853223.38618.qm@web83902.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <6dbe3c380911231332y375a1e88v660cf3a50c8812ed@mail.gmail.com> <010101ca6c8f$ab30ddb0$04000100@Alexandre> <6dbe3c380911231411g2f481ab4nd896f0419a7a71b7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <600354.61358.qm@web83910.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> lol... that's a good way to put it. I think in some instances they have support for hot swapping PCI cards as well, so there may be a downtime/reliability angle to their use as well. But, for the most part, I agree with your statement... probably has more to do with desktop programmers trying (not so hard) to do an embedded design. ________________________________ From: Dave McGuire To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Sent: Mon, November 23, 2009 4:16:31 PM Subject: Re: isa 486 computer-on-a-board type things On Nov 23, 2009, at 5:11 PM, Brian Lanning wrote: >> Primarily for embedded applications. They're not intended as >> general-purpose "desktop" computers. > > Some of them look really proprietary while others seem to have the normal > compliment of PC compatible internal and external ports. Nearly all of them do, but they may be on other types of connectors. > I worry about the > bios though. I might have to swap in the bios from a more garden variety > motherboard, if that would even work. Huh? Why? > Ideally, I'd like to buy one with all > the memory and processors already installed and have it just work like a > normal PC, albeit with a huge number of slots and a goofy form factor. Well. I'd not get too excited about them. They're just PCs, nothing special. They were (and still are) used in lots of high-density and embedded applications where the designers were too lazy to use a real embedded computer. There's nothing particularly special about these machines. -Dave --Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From tingox at gmail.com Mon Nov 23 11:11:04 2009 From: tingox at gmail.com (Torfinn Ingolfsen) Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 18:11:04 +0100 Subject: Siemens stuff in Kiel In-Reply-To: <4B09EF5F.8050209@acc.umu.se> References: <4B09907C.6030204@hachti.de> <4B09A9C4.3080606@update.uu.se> <4B09EF5F.8050209@acc.umu.se> Message-ID: Hi, 2009/11/23 G?ran Axelsson > Eagle Eye Pontus! > > Nice spoting! It surely looks like a Tandberg keyboard used by Norsk Data. > > If I have understood the scattered pieces of early Norwegian computer > history right then Kongsberg V?penfabrikk AS and Norsk Data AS were direct > competitors in the early years around 1970. Later on ND concentrated on the > mini computers while They might have been. Another part of history is that the predecessors of the first Norsk Data machines were machines built at Kongsberg (now if Kongsberg designed those machines alone, in cooperation with FFI, or if FFI designed them alone, I don't know). > they bought and rebranded the peripherals from other makers. Kongsberg > dropped the computers and started to make peripherals and develop software. For part of their history, Kongsberg also made "controllers" (cnc and other industrial processes) based on their computers. If this part extended into ND's timeline, I don't know. > Too bad I'm so far from that Kongsberg machine. It should definitely be > saved in some way. > Is it a complete machine? Is it a computer or some peripheral? How big is > it? Any software, documentation or tapes left for it? Is there any way to > tell the age of it? > To me it looks like it has a complete OMP (Operators Maintenance Panel), which is an indication that the main rack of the machine is there at least. Hopefully, people with more knowledge will correct / extend this information. -- Regards, Torfinn Ingolfsen, Norway From cclist at sydex.com Mon Nov 23 16:58:37 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 14:58:37 -0800 Subject: isa 486 computer-on-a-board type things In-Reply-To: <4B0B05DF.4070008@gmail.com> References: <6dbe3c380911231252k4c19a0d9tfd6bf45a695aec87@mail.gmail.com>, <010101ca6c8f$ab30ddb0$04000100@Alexandre>, <4B0B05DF.4070008@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B0AA31D.10726.145CD84@cclist.sydex.com> On 23 Nov 2009 at 16:59, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Lots of slots. If the system board goes bad, you can replace just the > system board instead of taking the whole machine apart to replace the > backplane. ...and many of the commercial passive backplanes are larger than the usual 8 slots or so. 11 and 13 slot ISA backplanes come to mind. --Chuck From doc at vaxen.net Mon Nov 23 17:01:59 2009 From: doc at vaxen.net (Doc Shipley) Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 17:01:59 -0600 Subject: isa 486 computer-on-a-board type things In-Reply-To: <600354.61358.qm@web83910.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <6dbe3c380911231252k4c19a0d9tfd6bf45a695aec87@mail.gmail.com> <853223.38618.qm@web83902.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <6dbe3c380911231332y375a1e88v660cf3a50c8812ed@mail.gmail.com> <010101ca6c8f$ab30ddb0$04000100@Alexandre> <6dbe3c380911231411g2f481ab4nd896f0419a7a71b7@mail.gmail.com> <600354.61358.qm@web83910.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4B0B1467.3000903@vaxen.net> geoffrey oltmans wrote: > lol... that's a good way to put it. I think in some instances they have support for hot swapping PCI cards as well, so there may be a downtime/reliability angle to their use as well. > > But, for the most part, I agree with your statement... probably has more to do with desktop programmers trying (not so hard) to do an embedded design. It's worth note that a lot of the backplanes support multiple PCI and/or ISA busses. If you want more information than you really need, google PICMG I have a couple of 386 ISA boards and several Pentium-I ISA boards, and a few Pentium-III "PCI/ISA" boards. Like somebody said, they're heavily telco-oriented. Lots of I/O slots and I/O glue, but on the older stuff, not-huge throughput per slot. Doc From pete at dunnington.plus.com Mon Nov 23 16:50:31 2009 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 22:50:31 +0000 Subject: DEC VT100 character generator Message-ID: <4B0B11B7.4020304@dunnington.plus.com> Several months ago, someone was looking for an image of the 23-018E2 character generator ROM for a VT100. A generous reader has given me an image, which I've uploaded to my website at http://www.dunnington.u-net.com/public/DECROMs/ Better late than never, I hope! -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From feedle at feedle.net Mon Nov 23 18:05:49 2009 From: feedle at feedle.net (feedle) Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 16:05:49 -0800 Subject: isa 486 computer-on-a-board type things In-Reply-To: <010101ca6c8f$ab30ddb0$04000100@Alexandre> References: <6dbe3c380911231252k4c19a0d9tfd6bf45a695aec87@mail.gmail.com><853223.38618.qm@web83902.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <6dbe3c380911231332y375a1e88v660cf3a50c8812ed@mail.gmail.com> <010101ca6c8f$ab30ddb0$04000100@Alexandre> Message-ID: <4B0B235D.4090803@feedle.net> Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >> Yes, single board computers. I remembered it after I clicked send. >> That's >> a broader term than what I'm talking about I think though. > > Eh...great...but... > > Why? > > You can get better systems for cheaper, and less clunky. Why use > something like that? I would strongly argue "better" and "less clunky". Many of the industrial SBCs I've worked with had a level of build quality you rarely see from most of the mainstream motherboard manufacturers. Also, the modularity of the parts means that if/when the board craps out (be it from overheating or what not) replacement can be done by the maintenance shop on-site. I see SBC-based systems infrequently in telecom applications. There are some 386-based SBCs driving a fair number of voicemail systems around. Some of these systems have been around for 20+ years now. I also know of a national cellular company who's voicemail system runs on Pentium SBC-backplane boxes. The form factor is familiar to most telecom techs: there's guys I've worked with who have been replacing boards in switches since the 1960's, and they don't need to have it explained to "slot this board into slot A-1 of the chassis, and ship me the board that's in there". I'd hate to have to step these guys through a motherboard swap on a modern rackmount ITX chassis. From rescue at hawkmountain.net Mon Nov 23 18:26:10 2009 From: rescue at hawkmountain.net (Curtis H. Wilbar Jr.) Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 19:26:10 -0500 Subject: isa 486 computer-on-a-board type things In-Reply-To: <6dbe3c380911231252k4c19a0d9tfd6bf45a695aec87@mail.gmail.com> References: <6dbe3c380911231252k4c19a0d9tfd6bf45a695aec87@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B0B2822.3080509@hawkmountain.net> Brian Lanning wrote: > Hi Everyone. I have no idea what these things are called. They show up on > ebay all the time and look like entire 486 machines on a full-length 16-bit > isa card. I'm assuming these are designed to be plugged into a passive back > plane. > yes, they are intended for use in passive backplanes..... I once tested one on a dead PC motherboard (I removed/cut out as much as I could of the chips). I never tried adding any other cards .... I was using the old (dead) PC board to put power to the SBC. Later SBCs are PICMG, and have an ISA bus and a (modified/ repositioned) PCI bus connector. I have a few systems and SBCs of this type here. PICMG I think started in the pentium generation. Prior to that they may have all been ISA only ? Don't know of any variant that ever carried a VL-bus off the SBC (what would have been the point, as the primary use of the VL-bus was for graphics... not the SBC's intended use). -- Curt > I've always wanted to tinker with a computer of this design, but I haven't > had any exposure to them. Is there anything I should look for or avoid > before trying to buy one of these boards? Thanks. > > brian > > From geoffr at zipcon.net Mon Nov 23 22:17:27 2009 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoffrey Reed) Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 20:17:27 -0800 Subject: isa 486 computer-on-a-board type things In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 11/23/09 2:01 PM, "Dave McGuire" wrote: -snip- > Primarily for embedded applications. They're not intended as > general-purpose "desktop" computers. > > -Dave Dave's right, several router companies used these sort of cards in 2U chassis. We just recently decommissioned a bunch of F5 Big-IP's that used those cards. From csquared3 at tx.rr.com Mon Nov 23 21:42:02 2009 From: csquared3 at tx.rr.com (CSquared) Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 21:42:02 -0600 Subject: BIT 483 / was Re: Non-fake Apple 1 on ebay In-Reply-To: <4B07B9FD.20880.110DFE5@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4B04E84D.C8C6A4F2@cs.ubc.ca>, <4B06BB9C.7080205@tx.rr.com> <4B07B9FD.20880.110DFE5@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4B0B560A.7070005@tx.rr.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 20 Nov 2009 at 9:54, CSquared wrote: > >> My old Microdata 820 has a 4-4-4-4 front panel pattern which is rather >> easier to deal with I think. Of course you realize this discussion >> has me wanting to drag it out of the garage and get it going again. :) > > The switches on the MITS Altair are grouped in threes; the IMSAI > allowed one to (by virtue of paddle colors) group in 3 or 4 (or 2). > I simply ignored the grouping on the MITS and thought in hex anyway. > > It would have been much more difficult had the display on the system > been octal via 7-segment displays. > > (I know that 8080 instructions, especially register moves, lend > themselves to octal representation, but that was less important to > me). > > --Chuck > > I suppose it is all about what one becomes familiar with. I always wanted but could never seem to afford one of the Altairs, IMSAI's, Cromemco's etc. and had to be content with the stuff at work. Besides the Microdata, that consisted of 6800's, then 6809's (what a great chip IMHO) with no switches or blinkey lights at all - just a debugger running from a terminal. Then there were Datacraft/Harris 6024's and SDS 910's which had both switches and blinkey lights but were 24 bit word length machines with everything in octal and in groupings of 3 bits per group. I think it would have been tough thinking in hex for those. Characters for the SDS were only 6 bits so one could pack 4 per word. Since we only had 4K or 8K words in the 910, packing characters that way was fairly important. Hmm, lets see, there was also a bit of Z80 and lots of 8086 but none of those devices had a really fun control panel either. I do seem to recall from the Z80 days noticing that some of the instruction coding seemed more natural in octal than hex which fits with your thoughts about the 8080. Later, Charlie C. From segin2005 at gmail.com Tue Nov 24 06:35:52 2009 From: segin2005 at gmail.com (Kirn Gill) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 07:35:52 -0500 Subject: Ten Year Rule Message-ID: <4B0BD328.5010102@gmail.com> I was thinking recently, and I know that the general threshold for discussion on this list is ten years, but is that enough? As it stands, given the rule of a minimum of ten years, most early Pentium III PeeCees are listworthy for discussion. I have a Dell OptiPlex GX110 that could be discussed here; the machine is twelve years old, and if I am not mistaken, twelve is greater than ten. (For those of you that live in alternate realities in which twelve is *not* greater than ten, please disregard this whole email.) I also have an Apple iMac G3 Rev. B that could be listworthy, as it is eleven years old. In just two more years time, the world's most popular computer operating system (as of the time of this email's writing) would be perfectly valid to discuss, even as "on-topic". 2001 to 2011 is ten years, isn't it? I know that it's not a strict and absolute rule, being more just a guideline than anything, but still, is ten years enough? Personally, I'd give it fifteen, possibly twenty years for some piece of computing history to be considered listworthy. From pontus at Update.UU.SE Tue Nov 24 06:46:33 2009 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 13:46:33 +0100 Subject: Ten Year Rule In-Reply-To: <4B0BD328.5010102@gmail.com> References: <4B0BD328.5010102@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20091124124632.GA28982@Update.UU.SE> > I know that it's not a strict and absolute rule, being more just a > guideline than anything, but still, is ten years enough? > > Personally, I'd give it fifteen, possibly twenty years for some piece of > computing history to be considered listworthy. > This has been discussed before and there is no correct answer. If we do what you suggest we will end up adding five years to the "rule" every five years and we can just make year 2000 a cutoff value. No, I say, if I want help getting my old Pentium 200 MMX custom build going again I can think of a few other places to ask, but I would not mind a thread on this list about it. It is easy to filter anyway. Kind Regards, Pontus. From doug at stillhq.com Tue Nov 24 06:45:48 2009 From: doug at stillhq.com (Doug Jackson) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 23:45:48 +1100 Subject: Ten Year Rule In-Reply-To: <4B0BD328.5010102@gmail.com> References: <4B0BD328.5010102@gmail.com> Message-ID: <8A515E02-B7B0-49F8-9538-B0EEAF91E6C7@stillhq.com> Personally I work on the basis that 1982 is the cutoff year for anything interesting Anything newer is only interesting if it isn't powered by Intel or AMD. Doug Jackson Information Technology Security Architect IBM Australia 8 Brisbane Ave. Barton. ACT 2600 Mo 0414 986 878 Sent from my iPhone On 24/11/2009, at 11:35 PM, Kirn Gill wrote: > I was thinking recently, and I know that the general threshold for > discussion on this list is ten years, but is that enough? > > As it stands, given the rule of a minimum of ten years, most early > Pentium III PeeCees are listworthy for discussion. > > I have a Dell OptiPlex GX110 that could be discussed here; the machine > is twelve years old, and if I am not mistaken, twelve is greater than > ten. (For those of you that live in alternate realities in which > twelve > is *not* greater than ten, please disregard this whole email.) I also > have an Apple iMac G3 Rev. B that could be listworthy, as it is eleven > years old. > > In just two more years time, the world's most popular computer > operating > system (as of the time of this email's writing) would be perfectly > valid > to discuss, even as "on-topic". 2001 to 2011 is ten years, isn't it? > > I know that it's not a strict and absolute rule, being more just a > guideline than anything, but still, is ten years enough? > > Personally, I'd give it fifteen, possibly twenty years for some > piece of > computing history to be considered listworthy. > From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Nov 24 08:50:00 2009 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 09:50:00 -0500 Subject: Ten Year Rule In-Reply-To: <8A515E02-B7B0-49F8-9538-B0EEAF91E6C7@stillhq.com> References: <4B0BD328.5010102@gmail.com> <8A515E02-B7B0-49F8-9538-B0EEAF91E6C7@stillhq.com> Message-ID: <4B0BF298.1010401@gmail.com> Doug Jackson wrote: > Personally I work on the basis that 1982 is the cutoff year for anything > interesting Anything newer is only interesting if it isn't powered by > Intel or AMD. That's not right either. There are interesting Intel-based boxes out there. IBM PC Server 720? Sequent DYNIX boxes? Tandy 4000MC? Peace... Sridhar From rickb at bensene.com Tue Nov 24 08:59:28 2009 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 06:59:28 -0800 Subject: Switches & Blinky Light Front Panel for PC? In-Reply-To: <8A515E02-B7B0-49F8-9538-B0EEAF91E6C7@stillhq.com> References: <4B0BD328.5010102@gmail.com> <8A515E02-B7B0-49F8-9538-B0EEAF91E6C7@stillhq.com> Message-ID: OK, so this might break the ten year rule, but I'm curious. Has anyone ever built a switches and lights front panel for a PC? I'm talking a real front panel (not some USB-attached, software-driven thing) that can control an X86 PC...one that has address, data, and state lights, address/data switches, and control switches (Exam/Exam Next, Deposit, Load Address, Run/Stop, Single Step, etc.)? Is such a beast even possible? Might be somewhat difficult with multi-core CPUs, but maybe a Pentium 3 or earlier? While such a thing would probably be of limited use for anything really practical, it would be interesting (to me at least) in some twisted way. Rick Bensene From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Nov 24 09:03:05 2009 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 10:03:05 -0500 Subject: Switches & Blinky Light Front Panel for PC? In-Reply-To: References: <4B0BD328.5010102@gmail.com> <8A515E02-B7B0-49F8-9538-B0EEAF91E6C7@stillhq.com> Message-ID: <4B0BF5A9.1020306@gmail.com> Rick Bensene wrote: > OK, so this might break the ten year rule, but I'm curious. > > Has anyone ever built a switches and lights front panel for a PC? > > I'm talking a real front panel (not some USB-attached, software-driven > thing) that can control an X86 PC...one that has address, data, and > state lights, address/data switches, and control switches (Exam/Exam > Next, Deposit, Load Address, Run/Stop, Single Step, etc.)? > > Is such a beast even possible? Might be somewhat difficult with > multi-core CPUs, but maybe a Pentium 3 or earlier? > While such a thing would probably be of limited use for anything really > practical, it would be interesting (to me at least) in some twisted way. Can modern processors be single-stepped? Peace... Sridhar From oltmansg at bellsouth.net Tue Nov 24 09:06:17 2009 From: oltmansg at bellsouth.net (geoffrey oltmans) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 07:06:17 -0800 (PST) Subject: Ten Year Rule In-Reply-To: <4B0BF298.1010401@gmail.com> References: <4B0BD328.5010102@gmail.com> <8A515E02-B7B0-49F8-9538-B0EEAF91E6C7@stillhq.com> <4B0BF298.1010401@gmail.com> Message-ID: <505389.30034.qm@web83905.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> I don't know that any further classification is necessary for whether an obsolete computer is worthy of discussion. But, if one was required, my suggestion would be to base it on a expanding scale of how much system memory the machine is capable of supporting and/or how old. Most old machines that people would consider "interesting" on this list I'm sure would use far less than 128MB of system memory for example. But, of course I'm sure someone else on the list will disagree, and therein lies the problem. :) ________________________________ From: Sridhar Ayengar To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Sent: Tue, November 24, 2009 8:50:00 AM Subject: Re: Ten Year Rule Doug Jackson wrote: > Personally I work on the basis that 1982 is the cutoff year for anything > interesting Anything newer is only interesting if it isn't powered by > Intel or AMD. That's not right either. There are interesting Intel-based boxes out there. IBM PC Server 720? Sequent DYNIX boxes? Tandy 4000MC? Peace... Sridhar From oltmansg at bellsouth.net Tue Nov 24 09:08:13 2009 From: oltmansg at bellsouth.net (geoffrey oltmans) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 07:08:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: Switches & Blinky Light Front Panel for PC? In-Reply-To: <4B0BF5A9.1020306@gmail.com> References: <4B0BD328.5010102@gmail.com> <8A515E02-B7B0-49F8-9538-B0EEAF91E6C7@stillhq.com> <4B0BF5A9.1020306@gmail.com> Message-ID: <972931.16431.qm@web83906.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> This would surely be possible, but might require a device with some external software... we use them all the time at my work... jtag debugger... just the presentation would be different (and less powerful). ________________________________ From: Sridhar Ayengar To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Sent: Tue, November 24, 2009 9:03:05 AM Subject: Re: Switches & Blinky Light Front Panel for PC? Rick Bensene wrote: > OK, so this might break the ten year rule, but I'm curious. > > Has anyone ever built a switches and lights front panel for a PC? > > I'm talking a real front panel (not some USB-attached, software-driven > thing) that can control an X86 PC...one that has address, data, and > state lights, address/data switches, and control switches (Exam/Exam > Next, Deposit, Load Address, Run/Stop, Single Step, etc.)? > > Is such a beast even possible? Might be somewhat difficult with > multi-core CPUs, but maybe a Pentium 3 or earlier? > While such a thing would probably be of limited use for anything really > practical, it would be interesting (to me at least) in some twisted way. Can modern processors be single-stepped? Peace... Sridhar From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Nov 24 09:09:32 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 10:09:32 -0500 Subject: Switches & Blinky Light Front Panel for PC? In-Reply-To: <4B0BF5A9.1020306@gmail.com> References: <4B0BD328.5010102@gmail.com> <8A515E02-B7B0-49F8-9538-B0EEAF91E6C7@stillhq.com> <4B0BF5A9.1020306@gmail.com> Message-ID: <13A90531-353E-41C7-804B-593BCDC34B78@neurotica.com> On Nov 24, 2009, at 10:03 AM, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >> OK, so this might break the ten year rule, but I'm curious. >> >> Has anyone ever built a switches and lights front panel for a PC? >> >> I'm talking a real front panel (not some USB-attached, software- >> driven >> thing) that can control an X86 PC...one that has address, data, and >> state lights, address/data switches, and control switches (Exam/Exam >> Next, Deposit, Load Address, Run/Stop, Single Step, etc.)? >> >> Is such a beast even possible? Might be somewhat difficult with >> multi-core CPUs, but maybe a Pentium 3 or earlier? >> While such a thing would probably be of limited use for anything >> really >> practical, it would be interesting (to me at least) in some >> twisted way. > > Can modern processors be single-stepped? Most modern designs use what amount to dynamic memory for registers and other internal state stuff, which means that there's usually a minimum clock speed...I don't see how true single-stepping would be possible in such a situation. -Dave > -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Nov 24 09:09:52 2009 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 10:09:52 -0500 Subject: Ten Year Rule In-Reply-To: <505389.30034.qm@web83905.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <4B0BD328.5010102@gmail.com> <8A515E02-B7B0-49F8-9538-B0EEAF91E6C7@stillhq.com> <4B0BF298.1010401@gmail.com> <505389.30034.qm@web83905.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4B0BF740.7000808@gmail.com> geoffrey oltmans wrote: > I don't know that any further classification is necessary for whether > an obsolete computer is worthy of discussion. But, if one was > required, my suggestion would be to base it on a expanding scale of > how much system memory the machine is capable of supporting and/or > how old. Most old machines that people would consider "interesting" > on this list I'm sure would use far less than 128MB of system memory > for example. > > But, of course I'm sure someone else on the list will disagree, and > therein lies the problem. :) Indeed, because that criterion tends to discount supercomputers and mainframes. Peace... Sridhar From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Nov 24 09:10:51 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 10:10:51 -0500 Subject: Ten Year Rule In-Reply-To: <4B0BF298.1010401@gmail.com> References: <4B0BD328.5010102@gmail.com> <8A515E02-B7B0-49F8-9538-B0EEAF91E6C7@stillhq.com> <4B0BF298.1010401@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1A15147D-771E-4BF1-9E5A-4AEEFC5141B3@neurotica.com> On Nov 24, 2009, at 9:50 AM, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >> Personally I work on the basis that 1982 is the cutoff year for >> anything >> interesting Anything newer is only interesting if it isn't powered by >> Intel or AMD. > > That's not right either. There are interesting Intel-based boxes > out there. IBM PC Server 720? Sequent DYNIX boxes? Tandy 4000MC? Sun 386i! What's a PC Server 720? -Dave > -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From oltmansg at bellsouth.net Tue Nov 24 09:13:23 2009 From: oltmansg at bellsouth.net (geoffrey oltmans) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 07:13:23 -0800 (PST) Subject: Ten Year Rule In-Reply-To: <4B0BF740.7000808@gmail.com> References: <4B0BD328.5010102@gmail.com> <8A515E02-B7B0-49F8-9538-B0EEAF91E6C7@stillhq.com> <4B0BF298.1010401@gmail.com> <505389.30034.qm@web83905.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <4B0BF740.7000808@gmail.com> Message-ID: <394225.84135.qm@web83902.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Hence my inclusion of an age factor as well, but I think this illustrates the point. One man's junk is another man's treasure. ________________________________ From: Sridhar Ayengar To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Sent: Tue, November 24, 2009 9:09:52 AM Subject: Re: Ten Year Rule geoffrey oltmans wrote: > I don't know that any further classification is necessary for whether > an obsolete computer is worthy of discussion. But, if one was > required, my suggestion would be to base it on a expanding scale of > how much system memory the machine is capable of supporting and/or > how old. Most old machines that people would consider "interesting" > on this list I'm sure would use far less than 128MB of system memory > for example. > > But, of course I'm sure someone else on the list will disagree, and > therein lies the problem. :) Indeed, because that criterion tends to discount supercomputers and mainframes. Peace... Sridhar From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Nov 24 08:15:50 2009 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 07:15:50 -0700 Subject: Ten Year Rule In-Reply-To: <4B0BF298.1010401@gmail.com> References: <4B0BD328.5010102@gmail.com> <8A515E02-B7B0-49F8-9538-B0EEAF91E6C7@stillhq.com> <4B0BF298.1010401@gmail.com> Message-ID: At 9:50 AM -0500 11/24/09, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >That's not right either. There are interesting Intel-based boxes >out there. IBM PC Server 720? Sequent DYNIX boxes? Tandy 4000MC? IBM had one or two *INTERESTING* PC desktop designs I've seen that would be nearing 10 years old. A few others have as well, but I'm honestly not sure anything that was built to run MS Windows will really ever be on-topic, that would include modern Macs. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From dkelvey at hotmail.com Tue Nov 24 09:16:43 2009 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 07:16:43 -0800 Subject: Switches & Blinky Light Front Panel for PC? In-Reply-To: <4B0BF5A9.1020306@gmail.com> References: <4B0BD328.5010102@gmail.com> <8A515E02-B7B0-49F8-9538-B0EEAF91E6C7@stillhq.com>, , <4B0BF5A9.1020306@gmail.com> Message-ID: ---------------------------------------- > Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 10:03:05 -0500 > From: ploopster at gmail.com > To: > Subject: Re: Switches & Blinky Light Front Panel for PC? > ---snip--- > > Can modern processors be single-stepped? > > Peace... Sridhar Hi One could somehow jam a halt instruction onto the bus and have it sit idle. Then, what bus would one jam it on. The processor is running from instide cache so you can't observe that without some software interrupt of something. Most processors have a pipe as well. This means that it isn't even running the same instructions as where in the program. The instructions have been split into different parts of the chip and may not even be in the original order. It would be tough even getting onto one of the high speed memory busses. The sense of what a front panel does doesn't have exactly the same meaning as it used to. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Bing brings you maps, menus, and reviews organized in one place. http://www.bing.com/search?q=restaurants&form=MFESRP&publ=WLHMTAG&crea=TEXT_MFESRP_Local_MapsMenu_Resturants_1x1 From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Nov 24 09:19:12 2009 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 10:19:12 -0500 Subject: Ten Year Rule In-Reply-To: <1A15147D-771E-4BF1-9E5A-4AEEFC5141B3@neurotica.com> References: <4B0BD328.5010102@gmail.com> <8A515E02-B7B0-49F8-9538-B0EEAF91E6C7@stillhq.com> <4B0BF298.1010401@gmail.com> <1A15147D-771E-4BF1-9E5A-4AEEFC5141B3@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4B0BF970.20401@gmail.com> Dave McGuire wrote: >>> Personally I work on the basis that 1982 is the cutoff year for anything >>> interesting Anything newer is only interesting if it isn't powered by >>> Intel or AMD. >> >> That's not right either. There are interesting Intel-based boxes out >> there. IBM PC Server 720? Sequent DYNIX boxes? Tandy 4000MC? > > Sun 386i! > > What's a PC Server 720? MCA/PCI hybrid, up to six (!) Intel Pentiums. Very unusual architecture, with a proprietary processor-memory bus bridged to PCI and MCA via a bridge board. However, still made to be PC-compatible. Peace... Sridhar From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Nov 24 09:20:46 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 10:20:46 -0500 Subject: Ten Year Rule In-Reply-To: <394225.84135.qm@web83902.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <4B0BD328.5010102@gmail.com> <8A515E02-B7B0-49F8-9538-B0EEAF91E6C7@stillhq.com> <4B0BF298.1010401@gmail.com> <505389.30034.qm@web83905.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <4B0BF740.7000808@gmail.com> <394225.84135.qm@web83902.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <49EEECCB-4EC4-479E-BB06-F2C1BE917C80@neurotica.com> ...which is precisely why this discussion comes up about once a year, and always ends unresolved. -Dave On Nov 24, 2009, at 10:13 AM, geoffrey oltmans wrote: > Hence my inclusion of an age factor as well, but I think this > illustrates the point. One man's junk is another man's treasure. > > > > > ________________________________ > From: Sridhar Ayengar > To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Sent: Tue, November 24, 2009 9:09:52 AM > Subject: Re: Ten Year Rule > > geoffrey oltmans wrote: >> I don't know that any further classification is necessary for whether >> an obsolete computer is worthy of discussion. But, if one was >> required, my suggestion would be to base it on a expanding scale of >> how much system memory the machine is capable of supporting and/or >> how old. Most old machines that people would consider "interesting" >> on this list I'm sure would use far less than 128MB of system memory >> for example. >> >> But, of course I'm sure someone else on the list will disagree, and >> therein lies the problem. :) > > Indeed, because that criterion tends to discount supercomputers and > mainframes. > > Peace... Sridhar -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From dkelvey at hotmail.com Tue Nov 24 09:21:35 2009 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 07:21:35 -0800 Subject: Canon Cat on eBay In-Reply-To: <1A15147D-771E-4BF1-9E5A-4AEEFC5141B3@neurotica.com> References: <4B0BD328.5010102@gmail.com>, <8A515E02-B7B0-49F8-9538-B0EEAF91E6C7@stillhq.com>, <4B0BF298.1010401@gmail.com>, <1A15147D-771E-4BF1-9E5A-4AEEFC5141B3@neurotica.com> Message-ID: Hi I see that there is another Canon Cat on eBay. The fellows starting price might be a little high but that depends on one point of view. They've gone for more and for less. From the pictures, it is a little beat up but seems to be in working condition. If someone on this group gets it and want to correspond to others with them, let me know. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Windows 7: It works the way you want. Learn more. http://www.microsoft.com/Windows/windows-7/default.aspx?ocid=PID24727::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WWL_WIN_evergreen:112009v2 From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Nov 24 09:24:44 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 10:24:44 -0500 Subject: Switches & Blinky Light Front Panel for PC? In-Reply-To: <4B0BF5A9.1020306@gmail.com> References: <4B0BD328.5010102@gmail.com> <8A515E02-B7B0-49F8-9538-B0EEAF91E6C7@stillhq.com> <4B0BF5A9.1020306@gmail.com> Message-ID: > Can modern processors be single-stepped? Can even an 8088 be single stepped? -- Will From legalize at xmission.com Tue Nov 24 09:31:06 2009 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 08:31:06 -0700 Subject: Ten Year Rule In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 24 Nov 2009 07:35:52 -0500. <4B0BD328.5010102@gmail.com> Message-ID: At some point, DOS, Windows 3.1 and even Windows NT are vintage and are appropriate for conversation here, no matter what the snobs say. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From brianlanning at gmail.com Tue Nov 24 09:35:37 2009 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 09:35:37 -0600 Subject: Ten Year Rule In-Reply-To: References: <4B0BD328.5010102@gmail.com> <8A515E02-B7B0-49F8-9538-B0EEAF91E6C7@stillhq.com> <4B0BF298.1010401@gmail.com> Message-ID: <6dbe3c380911240735n14776085r4fb431c329075356@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Nov 24, 2009 at 8:15 AM, Zane H. Healy wrote: > IBM had one or two *INTERESTING* PC desktop designs I've seen that would be > nearing 10 years old. A few others have as well, but I'm honestly not sure > anything that was built to run MS Windows will really ever be on-topic, that > would include modern Macs. > So it sounds to me like the rule is, "anything that doesn't run windows, either because of insufficient power or design." lol Although some of the 486 or greater single board computer/passive backplane thingies could easily run windows. So maybe we need an exemption for anything that has a design that isn't a classic PC. And if we exclude modern macs, does that exclusion include the Cube and Mac Mini? I want both of those machines eventually. What about that goofy mac that looks like a half-dome with an LCD monitor sticking out? That's certainly interesting. Was that one intel or did it slip out before the conversion? And which version of windows was it that ran on the dec alpha? brian From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Nov 24 09:37:38 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 10:37:38 -0500 Subject: Ten Year Rule In-Reply-To: <4B0BF970.20401@gmail.com> References: <4B0BD328.5010102@gmail.com> <8A515E02-B7B0-49F8-9538-B0EEAF91E6C7@stillhq.com> <4B0BF298.1010401@gmail.com> <1A15147D-771E-4BF1-9E5A-4AEEFC5141B3@neurotica.com> <4B0BF970.20401@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4D81BC99-A31F-477B-AE7A-7A6AFB4132B4@neurotica.com> On Nov 24, 2009, at 10:19 AM, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >>>> Personally I work on the basis that 1982 is the cutoff year for >>>> anything >>>> interesting Anything newer is only interesting if it isn't >>>> powered by >>>> Intel or AMD. >>> >>> That's not right either. There are interesting Intel-based boxes out >>> there. IBM PC Server 720? Sequent DYNIX boxes? Tandy 4000MC? >> >> Sun 386i! >> >> What's a PC Server 720? > > MCA/PCI hybrid, up to six (!) Intel Pentiums. Very unusual > architecture, with a proprietary processor-memory bus bridged to > PCI and MCA via a bridge board. However, still made to be PC- > compatible. Wow...bizarre! I'd love to get my hands on one of those. Are there many out there? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ball.of.john at gmail.com Tue Nov 24 09:37:43 2009 From: ball.of.john at gmail.com (John Ball) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 07:37:43 -0800 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 75, Issue 39 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <889BFE011CA043569FAFDF3755546781@sparks> >My expeirience is that if you have a drive with a correctly-aligned >positioner/head assemly, you can remove it as an assembly, and put it >back in _the same drive_ and it will still be alighed. But if you move >positioenrs between drives you have to do a realignment. In my case unfortunately that would not be the case as the best I can find are two other units in unknown condition from a completely different set of drives. >The alignment procedure is not hard if oyu have the alignment pack. You >also need a 'scope (but just aout any 'scope will do) and a way of moving >the heads to a particular cylinder and selecting head 0 or head 1. I had >no prolems using a PDP11 + the appropriate controller for this, just >togging values int oteh controller registers from the PDP11's font panel. >If you use a PDP9/e, I think you have to write a trivial program for this. I can easily get hold of a scope but a calibration pack is a different story. >THe disk packs are different between the PDP8 and PDP11 systems. They're >hard-sectored (by notches in a metal ring on the disk hub), PDP11 packs >are 12-sectory, PDP8 packs are 16 sector. The former are _much_ easier to >find. I think if I could find the rest of the system I might also find the packs as well. Since this was a local and very little known recycling job only a few businesses in town and university staff drop stuff off. I really wish I knew dropped this off but alas, no records are kept on who drops off what. My best bet is either the hospital or it came from someplace in the university. Where exactly I have no idea. From oltmansg at bellsouth.net Tue Nov 24 09:37:54 2009 From: oltmansg at bellsouth.net (geoffrey oltmans) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 07:37:54 -0800 (PST) Subject: Ten Year Rule In-Reply-To: <49EEECCB-4EC4-479E-BB06-F2C1BE917C80@neurotica.com> References: <4B0BD328.5010102@gmail.com> <8A515E02-B7B0-49F8-9538-B0EEAF91E6C7@stillhq.com> <4B0BF298.1010401@gmail.com> <505389.30034.qm@web83905.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <4B0BF740.7000808@gmail.com> <394225.84135.qm@web83902.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <49EEECCB-4EC4-479E-BB06-F2C1BE917C80@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <760911.36678.qm@web83906.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Yep... best not touch it. A "classic" computer is really an amorphous designation, so it would be nigh impossible to completely categorize it. And probably unnecessarily anal as well. ________________________________ From: Dave McGuire To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Sent: Tue, November 24, 2009 9:20:46 AM Subject: Re: Ten Year Rule ...which is precisely why this discussion comes up about once a year, and always ends unresolved. -Dave On Nov 24, 2009, at 10:13 AM, geoffrey oltmans wrote: > Hence my inclusion of an age factor as well, but I think this illustrates the point. One man's junk is another man's treasure. > > > > > ________________________________ > From: Sridhar Ayengar > To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Sent: Tue, November 24, 2009 9:09:52 AM > Subject: Re: Ten Year Rule > > geoffrey oltmans wrote: >> I don't know that any further classification is necessary for whether >> an obsolete computer is worthy of discussion. But, if one was >> required, my suggestion would be to base it on a expanding scale of >> how much system memory the machine is capable of supporting and/or >> how old. Most old machines that people would consider "interesting" >> on this list I'm sure would use far less than 128MB of system memory >> for example. >> >> But, of course I'm sure someone else on the list will disagree, and >> therein lies the problem. :) > > Indeed, because that criterion tends to discount supercomputers and > mainframes. > > Peace... Sridhar --Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From teoz at neo.rr.com Tue Nov 24 09:42:39 2009 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 10:42:39 -0500 Subject: Ten Year Rule References: <4B0BD328.5010102@gmail.com><8A515E02-B7B0-49F8-9538-B0EEAF91E6C7@stillhq.com><4B0BF298.1010401@gmail.com><505389.30034.qm@web83905.mail.sp1.yahoo.com><4B0BF740.7000808@gmail.com><394225.84135.qm@web83902.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <49EEECCB-4EC4-479E-BB06-F2C1BE917C80@neurotica.com> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave McGuire" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, November 24, 2009 10:20 AM Subject: Re: Ten Year Rule > > ...which is precisely why this discussion comes up about once a year, > and always ends unresolved. > > -Dave It will sort itself out in 10 to 15 years when the last dozen members still here have nothing to talk about. From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Tue Nov 24 10:49:08 2009 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 13:49:08 -0300 Subject: Ten Year Rule References: <4B0BD328.5010102@gmail.com><8A515E02-B7B0-49F8-9538-B0EEAF91E6C7@stillhq.com><4B0BF298.1010401@gmail.com> Message-ID: <050201ca6d26$5c5e9e10$04000100@Alexandre> > IBM had one or two *INTERESTING* PC desktop designs I've seen that would > be nearing 10 years old. A few others have as well, but I'm honestly not > sure anything that was built to run MS Windows will really ever be > on-topic, that would include modern Macs. Not even PS/2 and the microchannel boards? :oO They are so interesting and unique :) From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Nov 24 10:01:59 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 11:01:59 -0500 Subject: Ten Year Rule In-Reply-To: References: <4B0BD328.5010102@gmail.com> <8A515E02-B7B0-49F8-9538-B0EEAF91E6C7@stillhq.com> <4B0BF298.1010401@gmail.com> <505389.30034.qm@web83905.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <4B0BF740.7000808@gmail.com> <394225.84135.qm@web83902.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <49EEECCB-4EC4-479E-BB06-F2C1BE917C80@neurotica.com> Message-ID: > It will sort itself out in 10 to 15 years when the last dozen members still > here have nothing to talk about. A good point. Is it just me - I have been noticing less list traffic over the years? Are people migrating to VCF? -- Will From pontus at Update.UU.SE Tue Nov 24 10:06:47 2009 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 17:06:47 +0100 Subject: Switches & Blinky Light Front Panel for PC? In-Reply-To: References: <4B0BD328.5010102@gmail.com> <8A515E02-B7B0-49F8-9538-B0EEAF91E6C7@stillhq.com> Message-ID: <20091124160647.GA27987@Update.UU.SE> On Tue, Nov 24, 2009 at 06:59:28AM -0800, Rick Bensene wrote: > OK, so this might break the ten year rule, but I'm curious. > > Has anyone ever built a switches and lights front panel for a PC? Sort of: http://www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum/showthread.php?t=17451 It is a PCjr and it looks really neat, there is a link to a youtube clip there as well. > > I'm talking a real front panel (not some USB-attached, software-driven > thing) that can control an X86 PC...one that has address, data, and > state lights, address/data switches, and control switches (Exam/Exam > Next, Deposit, Load Address, Run/Stop, Single Step, etc.)? > > Is such a beast even possible? Might be somewhat difficult with > multi-core CPUs, but maybe a Pentium 3 or earlier? > While such a thing would probably be of limited use for anything really > practical, it would be interesting (to me at least) in some twisted way. > > Rick Bensene /P From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Tue Nov 24 10:57:07 2009 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 13:57:07 -0300 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 75, Issue 39 References: <889BFE011CA043569FAFDF3755546781@sparks> Message-ID: <000901ca6d28$8d14f200$0301a8c0@Alexandre> > I can easily get hold of a scope but a calibration pack is a different > story. Maybe someone with a spare drive that could be dismantled and someone who could create the specific hardware to write analogically the pack, could create a machine for creating alignment packs?! :o) It was done before with 5 1/4 disk drives... :oD From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Nov 24 10:08:56 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 11:08:56 -0500 Subject: Ten Year Rule In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Nov 24, 2009, at 10:31 AM, Richard wrote: > At some point, DOS, Windows 3.1 and even Windows NT are vintage and > are appropriate for conversation here, no matter what the snobs say. ...says the Windows guy. ;) [dave runs for cover] -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Nov 24 10:09:43 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 11:09:43 -0500 Subject: Ten Year Rule In-Reply-To: <6dbe3c380911240735n14776085r4fb431c329075356@mail.gmail.com> References: <4B0BD328.5010102@gmail.com> <8A515E02-B7B0-49F8-9538-B0EEAF91E6C7@stillhq.com> <4B0BF298.1010401@gmail.com> <6dbe3c380911240735n14776085r4fb431c329075356@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Nov 24, 2009, at 10:35 AM, Brian Lanning wrote: > And which version of windows was it that ran on the dec alpha? ...and the MIPS-based DECstation-5000 line. That was NT. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Nov 24 10:11:16 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 11:11:16 -0500 Subject: Ten Year Rule In-Reply-To: References: <4B0BD328.5010102@gmail.com> <8A515E02-B7B0-49F8-9538-B0EEAF91E6C7@stillhq.com> <4B0BF298.1010401@gmail.com> <505389.30034.qm@web83905.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <4B0BF740.7000808@gmail.com> <394225.84135.qm@web83902.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <49EEECCB-4EC4-479E-BB06-F2C1BE917C80@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Nov 24, 2009, at 11:01 AM, William Donzelli wrote: >> It will sort itself out in 10 to 15 years when the last dozen >> members still >> here have nothing to talk about. > > A good point. Is it just me - I have been noticing less list traffic > over the years? Are people migrating to VCF? ...can VCF be presented as email, or is it only usable in annoying "web forum" format? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Nov 24 10:18:14 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 11:18:14 -0500 Subject: Switches & Blinky Light Front Panel for PC? In-Reply-To: References: <4B0BD328.5010102@gmail.com> <8A515E02-B7B0-49F8-9538-B0EEAF91E6C7@stillhq.com> <4B0BF5A9.1020306@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Nov 24, 2009, at 10:24 AM, William Donzelli wrote: >> Can modern processors be single-stepped? > > Can even an 8088 be single stepped? If I recall correctly, its registers are dynamic, so you've gotta keep the clock running. On the Z80, you can single-step the CPU without stopping the clock by using the /WAIT pin and a flip-flop driven from /M1. I'd imagine it'd be possible to do a similar trick on the 8088. -Dave > -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From segin2005 at gmail.com Tue Nov 24 10:24:09 2009 From: segin2005 at gmail.com (Kirn Gill) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 11:24:09 -0500 Subject: Ten Year Rule In-Reply-To: <20091124124632.GA28982@Update.UU.SE> References: <4B0BD328.5010102@gmail.com> <20091124124632.GA28982@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <5a4d65ae0911240824nca67dc6xb0a9df04af505e71@mail.gmail.com> Well, I agree with your logic. I would consider PC hardware up to about Windows 95-capable to classic enough for discussion. On 2009-11-24, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > This has been discussed before and there is no correct answer. If we do > what you suggest we will end up adding five years to the "rule" every > five years and we can just make year 2000 a cutoff value. > > No, I say, if I want help getting my old Pentium 200 MMX custom build > going again I can think of a few other places to ask, but I would not > mind a thread on this list about it. It is easy to filter anyway. > > Kind Regards, > Pontus. > From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Nov 24 10:25:59 2009 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 11:25:59 -0500 Subject: Ten Year Rule In-Reply-To: References: <4B0BD328.5010102@gmail.com> <8A515E02-B7B0-49F8-9538-B0EEAF91E6C7@stillhq.com> <4B0BF298.1010401@gmail.com> <6dbe3c380911240735n14776085r4fb431c329075356@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B0C0917.4040603@gmail.com> Dave McGuire wrote: > On Nov 24, 2009, at 10:35 AM, Brian Lanning wrote: >> And which version of windows was it that ran on the dec alpha? > > ...and the MIPS-based DECstation-5000 line. That was NT. There was also the MIPS Magnum, running Windows NT too, right? Peace... Sridhar From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Nov 24 10:29:05 2009 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 08:29:05 -0800 (PST) Subject: Ten Year Rule In-Reply-To: from William Donzelli at "Nov 24, 9 11:01:59 am" Message-ID: <200911241629.nAOGT5eE015662@floodgap.com> > > It will sort itself out in 10 to 15 years when the last dozen members still > > here have nothing to talk about. > > A good point. Is it just me - I have been noticing less list traffic > over the years? Are people migrating to VCF? I hope not. I dislike web fora and only use them for certain niches. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- I don't care who you are, stop walking on the water when I'm fishing! <>< -- From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Nov 24 10:31:53 2009 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 08:31:53 -0800 (PST) Subject: Ten Year Rule In-Reply-To: <6dbe3c380911240735n14776085r4fb431c329075356@mail.gmail.com> from Brian Lanning at "Nov 24, 9 09:35:37 am" Message-ID: <200911241631.nAOGVrSY013482@floodgap.com> > Although some of the 486 or greater single board computer/passive backplane > thingies could easily run windows. So maybe we need an exemption for > anything that has a design that isn't a classic PC. Or PC compatibility cards. Got my Power Mac 7300 an OrangePC 620 board. Runs well, I'm going to stick an AMD on it later. > And if we exclude modern macs, does that exclusion include the Cube and Mac > Mini? I want both of those machines eventually. What about that goofy mac > that looks like a half-dome with an LCD monitor sticking out? That's > certainly interesting. Was that one intel or did it slip out before the > conversion? I think the Power Macs are going to rapidly become on-topic, even the last G5s, simply because the architecture is now increasingly less and less visible (despite still being a common component of embedded systems and consoles, and servers, of course). The "half-dome" iMac was a G4. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- It's a big old goofy world. -- John Prine ---------------------------------- From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Nov 24 10:33:20 2009 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 08:33:20 -0800 (PST) Subject: Ten Year Rule In-Reply-To: from Richard at "Nov 24, 9 08:31:06 am" Message-ID: <200911241633.nAOGXKVE015604@floodgap.com> > At some point, DOS, Windows 3.1 and even Windows NT are vintage and > are appropriate for conversation here, no matter what the snobs say. I'd argue they already are, and I'm generally considered a Windows detractor. You can definitely make a case for DOS and Windows 3.1, and even Windows 95 and NT 3.x and 4.x are IMHO appropriate. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Faith is to be sure of what you hope for. -- The Kry, "Take My Hand" ------- From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Nov 24 10:34:07 2009 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 08:34:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: Ten Year Rule In-Reply-To: <4B0BF970.20401@gmail.com> from Sridhar Ayengar at "Nov 24, 9 10:19:12 am" Message-ID: <200911241634.nAOGY7IA015386@floodgap.com> > > What's a PC Server 720? > > MCA/PCI hybrid, up to six (!) Intel Pentiums. Very unusual > architecture, with a proprietary processor-memory bus bridged to PCI and > MCA via a bridge board. However, still made to be PC-compatible. That. Is. Sweet. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Actually, we can overcome gravity (just not the paperwork involved). ------- From caveguy at sbcglobal.net Tue Nov 24 10:35:45 2009 From: caveguy at sbcglobal.net (Bob Bradlee) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 11:35:45 -0500 Subject: Ten Year Rule In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <201957.91887.qm@smtp102.sbc.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> On Tue, 24 Nov 2009 08:31:06 -0700, Richard wrote: >At some point, DOS, Windows 3.1 and even Windows NT are vintage and >are appropriate for conversation here, no matter what the snobs say. >-- >"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download > > Legalize Adulthood! I have an NT Server 3.5 (1994) 15 year old running on Dual 66mhz Pentinum processors with 32meg Ram.Not to mention the early NT 3.1 Beta (~1991) that ran on it with P1-60's with 16meg ram before I upgraded to the 66's still in the basement. It is way over 10 years old now, below any reasonable memory side, P1's were surely a break through at the time, This system ran the origional European Microsoft Windows nt Academic Centre (EMWAC) Internet Mail Services for Windows NT (IMS) and the EMWAC HTTP Server, upgraded to Bob Denny's Website Windows Nt in 1995 when Tim O'reilly published it as a book with disk, all of which have been dead products for over 10 years. When, or more correctly, Will it ever be on topic here, based on the current floating guidelines ? The other Bob From ball.of.john at gmail.com Tue Nov 24 10:38:38 2009 From: ball.of.john at gmail.com (John Ball) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 08:38:38 -0800 Subject: Got two RK05's, looking for a PDP-8 or 11 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <22B74C18CBAD47F58F2641A86D9148BC@sparks> >Maybe someone with a spare drive that could be dismantled and someone >who could create the specific hardware to write analogically the pack, >could create a machine for creating alignment packs?! :o) > > It was done before with 5 1/4 disk drives... :oD Hmm, I was under the impression that the alignment packs had everything hard-coded as to ensure the alignment went okay. John. From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Nov 24 10:38:45 2009 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 11:38:45 -0500 Subject: Switches & Blinky Light Front Panel for PC? In-Reply-To: References: <4B0BD328.5010102@gmail.com> <8A515E02-B7B0-49F8-9538-B0EEAF91E6C7@stillhq.com> <4B0BF5A9.1020306@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B0C0C15.6090908@gmail.com> Dave McGuire wrote: > On Nov 24, 2009, at 10:24 AM, William Donzelli wrote: >>> Can modern processors be single-stepped? >> >> Can even an 8088 be single stepped? > > If I recall correctly, its registers are dynamic, so you've gotta keep > the clock running. On the Z80, you can single-step the CPU without > stopping the clock by using the /WAIT pin and a flip-flop driven from > /M1. I'd imagine it'd be possible to do a similar trick on the 8088. Why not just pad out the wait times with nops? Peace... Sridhar From oltmansg at bellsouth.net Tue Nov 24 10:43:28 2009 From: oltmansg at bellsouth.net (geoffrey oltmans) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 08:43:28 -0800 (PST) Subject: Ten Year Rule In-Reply-To: <200911241629.nAOGT5eE015662@floodgap.com> References: <200911241629.nAOGT5eE015662@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <70991.81961.qm@web83906.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Six of one, half dozen of the other I suppose. I like the web interface personally. ________________________________ From: Cameron Kaiser To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Sent: Tue, November 24, 2009 10:29:05 AM Subject: Re: Ten Year Rule > > It will sort itself out in 10 to 15 years when the last dozen members still > > here have nothing to talk about. > > A good point. Is it just me - I have been noticing less list traffic > over the years? Are people migrating to VCF? I hope not. I dislike web fora and only use them for certain niches. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- I don't care who you are, stop walking on the water when I'm fishing! <>< -- From brianlanning at gmail.com Tue Nov 24 10:44:37 2009 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 10:44:37 -0600 Subject: Ten Year Rule In-Reply-To: <5a4d65ae0911240824nca67dc6xb0a9df04af505e71@mail.gmail.com> References: <4B0BD328.5010102@gmail.com> <20091124124632.GA28982@Update.UU.SE> <5a4d65ae0911240824nca67dc6xb0a9df04af505e71@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6dbe3c380911240844k6bdee973t19dccc6a8a49f088@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Nov 24, 2009 at 10:24 AM, Kirn Gill wrote: > Well, I agree with your logic. I would consider PC hardware up to > about Windows 95-capable to classic enough for discussion. > Were there any "servers" back in 95 that could run a modern version of windows? I'm thinking maybe 386 or 486 smp systems with 4 or more processors, lots of ram (for the time), and maybe an eisa bus. It would be interesting to see xp or 2000 running on that if it were possible with all the bloat. Although linux would probably be better suited, or that xp-lite thing. brian From brianlanning at gmail.com Tue Nov 24 11:00:28 2009 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 11:00:28 -0600 Subject: Ten Year Rule In-Reply-To: <200911241631.nAOGVrSY013482@floodgap.com> References: <6dbe3c380911240735n14776085r4fb431c329075356@mail.gmail.com> <200911241631.nAOGVrSY013482@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <6dbe3c380911240900u4f3d801al179423e11cd7e319@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Nov 24, 2009 at 10:31 AM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > Or PC compatibility cards. Got my Power Mac 7300 an OrangePC 620 board. > Runs well, I'm going to stick an AMD on it later. > I agree. I'm fascinated by hardware emulation upgrades. I just bought a 286 board for my amiga should should be here shortly. I'd love to put something similar in the IIfx or quadra 700. There's also a fairly common mac emulation board for the amiga. It would be fun to have both a mac and dos window open on the amiga desktop at the same time. :-) > I think the Power Macs are going to rapidly become on-topic, even the last > G5s, simply because the architecture is now increasingly less and less > visible (despite still being a common component of embedded systems and > consoles, and servers, of course). > > The "half-dome" iMac was a G4. > I've more or less decided to get a G3 or G4 as soon as I can spot a reasonably priced example. The sweet spot for me is somewhere around $50 which is when people seem to start throwing them out. brian From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Nov 24 11:02:55 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 12:02:55 -0500 Subject: Ten Year Rule In-Reply-To: <200911241629.nAOGT5eE015662@floodgap.com> References: <200911241629.nAOGT5eE015662@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <9A478CC4-10AC-49C5-A3CF-633B3B2D50E8@neurotica.com> On Nov 24, 2009, at 11:29 AM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> A good point. Is it just me - I have been noticing less list traffic >> over the years? Are people migrating to VCF? > > I hope not. I dislike web fora and only use them for certain niches. I dislike them too...and don't even use them for niches. -Dave > -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Nov 24 11:03:59 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 12:03:59 -0500 Subject: Ten Year Rule In-Reply-To: <201957.91887.qm@smtp102.sbc.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> References: <201957.91887.qm@smtp102.sbc.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <98714C55-B0F2-4062-A90B-BC4131C6CB26@neurotica.com> On Nov 24, 2009, at 11:35 AM, Bob Bradlee wrote: > I have an NT Server 3.5 (1994) 15 year old running on Dual 66mhz > Pentinum processors with 32meg Ram. Wow...Does 3.5 have decent multiprocessor support? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ggs at shiresoft.com Tue Nov 24 11:07:18 2009 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 09:07:18 -0800 Subject: Switches & Blinky Light Front Panel for PC? In-Reply-To: <4B0C0C15.6090908@gmail.com> References: <4B0BD328.5010102@gmail.com> <8A515E02-B7B0-49F8-9538-B0EEAF91E6C7@stillhq.com> <4B0BF5A9.1020306@gmail.com> <4B0C0C15.6090908@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1C344013-E15F-4053-BF66-F9F36A421D04@shiresoft.com> On Nov 24, 2009, at 8:38 AM, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Dave McGuire wrote: >> On Nov 24, 2009, at 10:24 AM, William Donzelli wrote: >>>> Can modern processors be single-stepped? >>> >>> Can even an 8088 be single stepped? >> >> If I recall correctly, its registers are dynamic, so you've gotta >> keep >> the clock running. On the Z80, you can single-step the CPU without >> stopping the clock by using the /WAIT pin and a flip-flop driven from >> /M1. I'd imagine it'd be possible to do a similar trick on the 8088. > > Why not just pad out the wait times with nops? Because the processor is still driving the bus. The /WAIT pin isn't the right way to do it either. There's a DMA request pin (forgot the name at the moment) that will cause the processor to relinquish control of the bus. That will allow you to "halt" it and read/write memory from the front panel (hey look a DMA front panel!). This is what I did (mumble) years ago. I'd have to go back and dig out the designs (I still have them some place). As I recall, to start at a particular address, it jammed a jump instruction (and address) on to the bus. Single stepping *was* done with the /WAIT pin. Doing this with anything much later than 486 is nigh impossible (and even that is problematic) without *a lot* of seriously designed HW. The buses are fast and have special signaling requirements (GTL, GTL+, etc). Don't even think about modern (last 5 or so years) x86 CPUs. In some of our labs we have bus analyzers that plug into the bus (can't do it with the new Nehalem CPUs). Those are $500K+ each (and are only good for that type of CPU) and each time I look at them, I'm amazed they work as well as they do. TTFN - Guy From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Nov 24 11:11:33 2009 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 09:11:33 -0800 (PST) Subject: Power Macs and PC Compatibility Cards was Re: Ten Year Rule In-Reply-To: <6dbe3c380911240900u4f3d801al179423e11cd7e319@mail.gmail.com> from Brian Lanning at "Nov 24, 9 11:00:28 am" Message-ID: <200911241711.nAOHBX9l013486@floodgap.com> > > Or PC compatibility cards. Got my Power Mac 7300 an OrangePC 620 board. > > Runs well, I'm going to stick an AMD on it later. > > I agree. I'm fascinated by hardware emulation upgrades. I just bought a > 286 board for my amiga should should be here shortly. I'd love to put > something similar in the IIfx or quadra 700. There's also a fairly common > mac emulation board for the amiga. It would be fun to have both a mac and > dos window open on the amiga desktop at the same time. :-) AST made a number of such cards, and those ones are in fact the direct ancestors of the Orange Micro boards. You can get Orange Micro boards for virtually any PCI or NuBus Mac, although the NuBus ones are harder to find. The 620 is a good all-around-choice because it doesn't need the (easily lost) cable octopus of the 5xx OrangePC cards and it's cheap relative to the line because it has software 3D only (though these cards are loved). Plus, most are upgradeable (mine has a 128MB DIMM in it, and it will have a K6-III 450MHz when it arrives, replacing the crummy WinChip C6 200MHz it has now), and run lots of OSes (the 7300 runs DOS, W95, W98 and NT4, plus MacOS 9.1, of course). Their chief problem is only one DIMM slot, and they aren't OS X compatible, and you can forget about WME, W2K or later, but you could just buy an Intel Mac if you wanted that. If I wanted a cadillac PCI "PC card," though, I'd pick the 660. That has a 3D accelerator as well, and all the advantages of the cheaper 620. The PCfx! was a piece of crap -- the CPU is not upgradeable and it has no L2, despite being positioned as their "gaming" card. > I've more or less decided to get a G3 or G4 as soon as I can spot a > reasonably priced example. The sweet spot for me is somewhere around $50 > which is when people seem to start throwing them out. People are going to start dumping Power Macs by the truckload very soon, because there is no market for them and thanks to Apple no future for them either, at least through traditional OS X. For people like me who prefer the POWER ISA and have a big investment in the classic Mac OS, this is heaven because any Power Mac can run classic apps, either in OS 9 or Classic under Tiger, and they are about to become really really cheap. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- /etc/motd: /earth is 98% full. please delete anyone you can. --------------- From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Nov 24 11:12:25 2009 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 09:12:25 -0800 (PST) Subject: Ten Year Rule In-Reply-To: <9A478CC4-10AC-49C5-A3CF-633B3B2D50E8@neurotica.com> from Dave McGuire at "Nov 24, 9 12:02:55 pm" Message-ID: <200911241712.nAOHCPbw013510@floodgap.com> > > > A good point. Is it just me - I have been noticing less list traffic > > > over the years? Are people migrating to VCF? > > > > I hope not. I dislike web fora and only use them for certain niches. > > I dislike them too...and don't even use them for niches. When I say 'niches' I mean certain established communities that I do need to work with, or want to talk to, that won't migrate. But I can count those on one hand. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- It's not an optical illusion. It just looks like one. -- Phil White -------- From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Nov 24 11:18:04 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 12:18:04 -0500 Subject: Ten Year Rule In-Reply-To: <4B0C0917.4040603@gmail.com> References: <4B0BD328.5010102@gmail.com> <8A515E02-B7B0-49F8-9538-B0EEAF91E6C7@stillhq.com> <4B0BF298.1010401@gmail.com> <6dbe3c380911240735n14776085r4fb431c329075356@mail.gmail.com> <4B0C0917.4040603@gmail.com> Message-ID: <817F3C43-6F30-4C3A-91FB-7ECB1E4A8629@neurotica.com> On Nov 24, 2009, at 11:25 AM, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >>> And which version of windows was it that ran on the dec alpha? >> >> ...and the MIPS-based DECstation-5000 line. That was NT. > > There was also the MIPS Magnum, running Windows NT too, right? Oh yes, it did I think. I had forgotten about that. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Nov 24 11:18:53 2009 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 09:18:53 -0800 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 75, Issue 39 In-Reply-To: <000901ca6d28$8d14f200$0301a8c0@Alexandre> References: <889BFE011CA043569FAFDF3755546781@sparks> <000901ca6d28$8d14f200$0301a8c0@Alexandre> Message-ID: <4B0C157D.3070503@bitsavers.org> Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > Maybe someone with a spare drive that could be dismantled and someone > who could create the specific hardware to write analogically the pack, > could create a machine for creating alignment packs?! :o) > Crisis Computer in San Jose had the equipment to create them, and has them in stock. They aren't cheap. You could probably get something good enough by bulk erasing a platter and writing a program to format and write a single track on an aligned drive. It won't be as good as a cat-eye pattern, but peaking on track center may be close enough. On the other hand, it isn't impossible to find used red packs. CLEAN packs may be more difficult, though. The bigger problem is after alignment, you may no longer be able to read the packs that you have, which may have been written on an out of alignment drive. From evan at snarc.net Tue Nov 24 11:20:19 2009 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 12:20:19 -0500 Subject: Ten Year Rule In-Reply-To: References: <4B0BD328.5010102@gmail.com> <8A515E02-B7B0-49F8-9538-B0EEAF91E6C7@stillhq.com> <4B0BF298.1010401@gmail.com> <505389.30034.qm@web83905.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <4B0BF740.7000808@gmail.com> <394225.84135.qm@web83902.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <49EEECCB-4EC4-479E-BB06-F2C1BE917C80@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4B0C15D3.5020509@snarc.net> > Is it just me - I have been noticing less list traffic > over the years? Are people migrating to VCF? > Most of the newer / younger collectors are automatically going to Erik's forum and will probably never even know about cctalk. When you Google for "vintage" or "retro" or "antique" computers, the site www.classiccmp.org doesn't even come up in the first few pages of results. Even when you Google for "classic" computers, this list is only the seventh result. Many people, like me, use both options. However sometimes I do get frustrated on Erik's forum because, as expected, there are many posts about things that I consider "too new" to be collectible (see that YATYR thread!) From teoz at neo.rr.com Tue Nov 24 11:21:07 2009 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 12:21:07 -0500 Subject: Ten Year Rule References: <6dbe3c380911240735n14776085r4fb431c329075356@mail.gmail.com><200911241631.nAOGVrSY013482@floodgap.com> <6dbe3c380911240900u4f3d801al179423e11cd7e319@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brian Lanning" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, November 24, 2009 12:00 PM Subject: Re: Ten Year Rule > On Tue, Nov 24, 2009 at 10:31 AM, Cameron Kaiser > wrote: > >> Or PC compatibility cards. Got my Power Mac 7300 an OrangePC 620 board. >> Runs well, I'm going to stick an AMD on it later. >> > > I agree. I'm fascinated by hardware emulation upgrades. I just bought a > 286 board for my amiga should should be here shortly. I'd love to put > something similar in the IIfx or quadra 700. There's also a fairly common > mac emulation board for the amiga. It would be fun to have both a mac and > dos window open on the amiga desktop at the same time. :-) > I have one of these in a IIfx: http://picasaweb.google.com/teozenios/NubusCards#5074342978870541170 486/100 with a PCMCIA slot you can stick a wireless network card into. Orange Micro sold 286, 386, 486 Nubus cards (I have a 486/133 in a Quadra 950 and a few 386 models). I have 286 bridgeboard in my Amiga 2000 but gave it to a friend and installed an XT instead just to be different. > > > I've more or less decided to get a G3 or G4 as soon as I can spot a > reasonably priced example. The sweet spot for me is somewhere around $50 > which is when people seem to start throwing them out. > > brian B&W G3's were giveaways a year ago or two ago, early G4 towers seem to heading there now. You have a window of a few years before the price start rising again and the units become hard to find (they all get recycled). Makes me wonder why recyclers have not opened up a warehouse to hold onto the better/cleaner systems for 5 years and make a profit selling on ebay or their own websites. From oltmansg at bellsouth.net Tue Nov 24 11:21:32 2009 From: oltmansg at bellsouth.net (geoffrey oltmans) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 09:21:32 -0800 (PST) Subject: Switches & Blinky Light Front Panel for PC? In-Reply-To: <1C344013-E15F-4053-BF66-F9F36A421D04@shiresoft.com> References: <4B0BD328.5010102@gmail.com> <8A515E02-B7B0-49F8-9538-B0EEAF91E6C7@stillhq.com> <4B0BF5A9.1020306@gmail.com> <4B0C0C15.6090908@gmail.com> <1C344013-E15F-4053-BF66-F9F36A421D04@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <985912.53111.qm@web83902.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Yup... best to use the JTAG/debug interface. There's silicon in the current PC CPUs dedicated to off chip debugging, and best of all, requires only a handful of signals connected (a dozen maybe) instead of tying off of each address/data/control signal from the processor (which you may or may not have access to). Best of all, you can leave a processor halted for days if you wish. ________________________________ From: Guy Sotomayor To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Sent: Tue, November 24, 2009 11:07:18 AM Subject: Re: Switches & Blinky Light Front Panel for PC? On Nov 24, 2009, at 8:38 AM, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Dave McGuire wrote: >> On Nov 24, 2009, at 10:24 AM, William Donzelli wrote: >>>> Can modern processors be single-stepped? >>> >>> Can even an 8088 be single stepped? >> >> If I recall correctly, its registers are dynamic, so you've gotta keep >> the clock running. On the Z80, you can single-step the CPU without >> stopping the clock by using the /WAIT pin and a flip-flop driven from >> /M1. I'd imagine it'd be possible to do a similar trick on the 8088. > > Why not just pad out the wait times with nops? Because the processor is still driving the bus. The /WAIT pin isn't the right way to do it either. There's a DMA request pin (forgot the name at the moment) that will cause the processor to relinquish control of the bus. That will allow you to "halt" it and read/write memory from the front panel (hey look a DMA front panel!). This is what I did (mumble) years ago. I'd have to go back and dig out the designs (I still have them some place). As I recall, to start at a particular address, it jammed a jump instruction (and address) on to the bus. Single stepping *was* done with the /WAIT pin. Doing this with anything much later than 486 is nigh impossible (and even that is problematic) without *a lot* of seriously designed HW. The buses are fast and have special signaling requirements (GTL, GTL+, etc). Don't even think about modern (last 5 or so years) x86 CPUs. In some of our labs we have bus analyzers that plug into the bus (can't do it with the new Nehalem CPUs). Those are $500K+ each (and are only good for that type of CPU) and each time I look at them, I'm amazed they work as well as they do. TTFN - Guy From evan at snarc.net Tue Nov 24 11:27:32 2009 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 12:27:32 -0500 Subject: Ten Year Rule In-Reply-To: <4B0BD328.5010102@gmail.com> References: <4B0BD328.5010102@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B0C1784.9070809@snarc.net> > I was thinking recently, and I know that the general threshold for discussion on this list is ten years, but is that enough? Know what really grates on me? When someone asks such a STUPID question. How can anyone in his right mind seriously think, in 2009, that the so-called "ten year rule" still applies here? (Put another way, dude, where have you been for the past few years!? Have you not noticed that a., this has been discussed to death, and b., it's incredibly freaking obvious that Windows Friggin' 98 is not frigging on-topic here!?!?!?) The so-called ten-year-rule, and anyone who insanely thinks the "rule" itself is not obsolete, can kiss my ass. Thank you, come again. What's on-topic: Almost anything pre-186, and a few non-mainstream exceptions after that. I shall now end my reply with a highly sophisticated opinion: Duh! From brianlanning at gmail.com Tue Nov 24 11:30:34 2009 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 11:30:34 -0600 Subject: Ten Year Rule In-Reply-To: <4B0C15D3.5020509@snarc.net> References: <4B0BD328.5010102@gmail.com> <8A515E02-B7B0-49F8-9538-B0EEAF91E6C7@stillhq.com> <4B0BF298.1010401@gmail.com> <505389.30034.qm@web83905.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <4B0BF740.7000808@gmail.com> <394225.84135.qm@web83902.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <49EEECCB-4EC4-479E-BB06-F2C1BE917C80@neurotica.com> <4B0C15D3.5020509@snarc.net> Message-ID: <6dbe3c380911240930t4ad577ccnfc5f797b24add734@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Nov 24, 2009 at 11:20 AM, Evan Koblentz wrote: > > Is it just me - I have been noticing less list traffic >> over the years? Are people migrating to VCF? >> >> > Most of the newer / younger collectors are automatically going to Erik's > forum and will probably never even know about cctalk. > What's the link to VCF? I'm not sure i've heard of that one. brian From teoz at neo.rr.com Tue Nov 24 11:34:53 2009 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 12:34:53 -0500 Subject: Power Macs and PC Compatibility Cards was Re: Ten Year Rule References: <200911241711.nAOHBX9l013486@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <94642DFFB3B2497DADE3420558027561@dell8300> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Cameron Kaiser" To: Sent: Tuesday, November 24, 2009 12:11 PM Subject: Power Macs and PC Compatibility Cards was Re: Ten Year Rule > People are going to start dumping Power Macs by the truckload very soon, > because there is no market for them and thanks to Apple no future for them > either, at least through traditional OS X. For people like me who prefer > the POWER ISA and have a big investment in the classic Mac OS, this is > heaven > because any Power Mac can run classic apps, either in OS 9 or Classic > under > Tiger, and they are about to become really really cheap. > That is what I am waiting for to snag the last G4's that boot into native OS 9.x. Something tells me the G5 towers are going to be expensive like old Amigas because they are the last of the PPC breed. I don't really care about OSX at all, one of my B&W G3's (with a G4) runs it for web usage on a separate HD. If you want Unix on a Mac fire up A/UX on a Quadra! Hopefully the thrifts will be overflowing with boxed PPC software soon so I can stock up (even now I run into hard to find 68k/ppc stuff at a local thrift nobody else wants). From brianlanning at gmail.com Tue Nov 24 11:37:42 2009 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 11:37:42 -0600 Subject: Power Macs and PC Compatibility Cards was Re: Ten Year Rule In-Reply-To: <200911241711.nAOHBX9l013486@floodgap.com> References: <6dbe3c380911240900u4f3d801al179423e11cd7e319@mail.gmail.com> <200911241711.nAOHBX9l013486@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <6dbe3c380911240937h55dfa818ue8e1a53d24d3650f@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Nov 24, 2009 at 11:11 AM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > AST made a number of such cards, and those ones are in fact the direct > ancestors of the Orange Micro boards. You can get Orange Micro boards for > virtually any PCI or NuBus Mac, although the NuBus ones are harder to find. > > The 620 is a good all-around-choice because it doesn't need the (easily > lost) > cable octopus of the 5xx OrangePC cards and it's cheap relative to the line > because it has software 3D only (though these cards are loved). Plus, most > are upgradeable (mine has a 128MB DIMM in it, and it will have a K6-III > 450MHz when it arrives, replacing the crummy WinChip C6 200MHz it has now), > and run lots of OSes (the 7300 runs DOS, W95, W98 and NT4, plus MacOS 9.1, > of course). Their chief problem is only one DIMM slot, and they aren't OS X > compatible, and you can forget about WME, W2K or later, but you could just > buy an Intel Mac if you wanted that. > > If I wanted a cadillac PCI "PC card," though, I'd pick the 660. That has > a 3D accelerator as well, and all the advantages of the cheaper 620. The > PCfx! was a piece of crap -- the CPU is not upgradeable and it has no L2, > despite being positioned as their "gaming" card. > Thanks for the info. Macs are my great weakness as I never had one originally. I don't know much about them at all. That makes it all the more fun to explore though. > People are going to start dumping Power Macs by the truckload very soon, > because there is no market for them and thanks to Apple no future for them > either, at least through traditional OS X. For people like me who prefer > the POWER ISA and have a big investment in the classic Mac OS, this is > heaven > because any Power Mac can run classic apps, either in OS 9 or Classic under > Tiger, and they are about to become really really cheap. > I think about all the things I've thrown out myself in the past (Shudder) and vow to never again do that (within reason). I regret missing the great apple public school sell-off, or the amigas that were dumped for next to nothing because they were obsolete. I don't want to be kicking myself for missing the last of the power macs when they were so plentiful. brian From ggs at shiresoft.com Tue Nov 24 11:39:04 2009 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 09:39:04 -0800 Subject: Ten Year Rule In-Reply-To: References: <6dbe3c380911240735n14776085r4fb431c329075356@mail.gmail.com><200911241631.nAOGVrSY013482@floodgap.com> <6dbe3c380911240900u4f3d801al179423e11cd7e319@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <813E9F2D-FE07-4BE0-B451-102A6254C48E@shiresoft.com> On Nov 24, 2009, at 9:21 AM, Teo Zenios wrote: >> > > B&W G3's were giveaways a year ago or two ago, early G4 towers seem > to heading there now. You have a window of a few years before the > price start rising again and the units become hard to find (they all > get recycled). Makes me wonder why recyclers have not opened up a > warehouse to hold onto the better/cleaner systems for 5 years and > make a profit selling on ebay or their own websites. Because warehouse space isn't free, taxes on inventory, etc. The (sad?) reality is that from an economic standpoint it's much better for them to get the scrap value now vs holding on for 5+ years. TTFN - Guy From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Nov 24 11:43:31 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 12:43:31 -0500 Subject: Cleaning packs Message-ID: > On the other hand, it isn't impossible to find used red packs. > CLEAN packs may be more difficult, though. One thing that I fear is that the knowledge to *properly* clean a pack is going away. There is (was?) a place near Boston that would do it, and I am sure Farris can as well, but I know of no others. It would be nice to document how packs are cleaned, so we can do this in the future. Speaking of Farris - is someone keeping an eye on them? Some day they are going to call it quits, and they have quite the pile to be saved. -- Will From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Tue Nov 24 12:42:12 2009 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 15:42:12 -0300 Subject: Got two RK05's, looking for a PDP-8 or 11 References: <22B74C18CBAD47F58F2641A86D9148BC@sparks> Message-ID: <016a01ca6d36$0ea29cc0$0301a8c0@Alexandre> >>Maybe someone with a spare drive that could be dismantled and someone >>who could create the specific hardware to write analogically the pack, >>could create a machine for creating alignment packs?! :o) >> It was done before with 5 1/4 disk drives... :oD > Hmm, I was under the impression that the alignment packs had everything > hard-coded as to ensure the alignment went okay. Well, I know nothing about DEC alignment packs. BUT I aligned some hundred of 3 1/2 and 5 1/4 drives during my life, and the alignment disk was a very simple disk...analog recorded. Someday, some clever guy just took out a sample of the patterns in the analogic disk, created a system capable of reproducing it, modified a 5 1/4 drive for analog recording (used the same head amplifiers, but with his analog wizardry) and started to create analog alignment disks for sale. He made a fortune. I do believe the same can be done with DEC packs. An alignment pack must be something on the same grounds. And easier to create than 5 1/4 disks :) From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Tue Nov 24 12:43:33 2009 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 15:43:33 -0300 Subject: Ten Year Rule References: <6dbe3c380911240735n14776085r4fb431c329075356@mail.gmail.com><200911241631.nAOGVrSY013482@floodgap.com> <6dbe3c380911240900u4f3d801al179423e11cd7e319@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <018301ca6d36$4645c6c0$0301a8c0@Alexandre> > I agree. I'm fascinated by hardware emulation upgrades. I just bought a > 286 board for my amiga should should be here shortly. I'd love to put > something similar in the IIfx or quadra 700. There's also a fairly common > mac emulation board for the amiga. It would be fun to have both a mac and > dos window open on the amiga desktop at the same time. :-) Something I always wanted to have: A LC mac and an Apple //e emulation board :D :D :D > I've more or less decided to get a G3 or G4 as soon as I can spot a > reasonably priced example. The sweet spot for me is somewhere around $50 > which is when people seem to start throwing them out. I have one, but it is too boring. There is nothing I can do with that (beyond music) :) From evan at snarc.net Tue Nov 24 11:50:24 2009 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 12:50:24 -0500 Subject: Ten Year Rule In-Reply-To: <6dbe3c380911240930t4ad577ccnfc5f797b24add734@mail.gmail.com> References: <4B0BD328.5010102@gmail.com> <8A515E02-B7B0-49F8-9538-B0EEAF91E6C7@stillhq.com> <4B0BF298.1010401@gmail.com> <505389.30034.qm@web83905.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <4B0BF740.7000808@gmail.com> <394225.84135.qm@web83902.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <49EEECCB-4EC4-479E-BB06-F2C1BE917C80@neurotica.com> <4B0C15D3.5020509@snarc.net> <6dbe3c380911240930t4ad577ccnfc5f797b24add734@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B0C1CE0.9070704@snarc.net> >> Most of the newer / younger collectors are automatically going to Erik's forum and will probably never even know about cctalk. >> > What's the link to VCF? I'm not sure i've heard of that one. > .... And some cctalkers are so stuck in their text-email rut that they've never heard of Google! ;) http://www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum But whatever you do, please don't call it VCF. There is only one VCF: http://www.vintage.org From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Nov 24 11:50:30 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 12:50:30 -0500 Subject: Ten Year Rule In-Reply-To: <813E9F2D-FE07-4BE0-B451-102A6254C48E@shiresoft.com> References: <6dbe3c380911240735n14776085r4fb431c329075356@mail.gmail.com> <200911241631.nAOGVrSY013482@floodgap.com> <6dbe3c380911240900u4f3d801al179423e11cd7e319@mail.gmail.com> <813E9F2D-FE07-4BE0-B451-102A6254C48E@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: > Because warehouse space isn't free, taxes on inventory, etc. ?The (sad?) > reality is that from an economic standpoint it's much better for them to get > the scrap value now vs holding on for 5+ years. Even for smaller scrappers or collectors - it really does not make much sense. I will happily scrap out most Macs, Suns, and PeeCees, knowing that the money I get from them can be used to save much better stuff in far more peril. If I wait 5 years for the Macs, Suns, and PeeCees to be worth selling, I will be shaving with that better stuff I passed up. -- Will From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Nov 24 11:52:31 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 12:52:31 -0500 Subject: Power Macs and PC Compatibility Cards was Re: Ten Year Rule In-Reply-To: <94642DFFB3B2497DADE3420558027561@dell8300> References: <200911241711.nAOHBX9l013486@floodgap.com> <94642DFFB3B2497DADE3420558027561@dell8300> Message-ID: On Nov 24, 2009, at 12:34 PM, Teo Zenios wrote: > I don't really care about OSX at all, one of my B&W G3's (with a > G4) runs it for web usage on a separate HD. If you want Unix on a > Mac fire up A/UX on a Quadra! Uh. What about if you want (and won't settle for less than) a top- class UNIX workstation on your desk? The best way to do that these days is with a Mac. I've got well over a hundred windows open on the machine I'm typing this on. You can't really do that with A/UX on a Quadra. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Nov 24 11:52:41 2009 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 09:52:41 -0800 (PST) Subject: Ten Year Rule In-Reply-To: <018301ca6d36$4645c6c0$0301a8c0@Alexandre> from Alexandre Souza - Listas at "Nov 24, 9 03:43:33 pm" Message-ID: <200911241752.nAOHqf3B017174@floodgap.com> > Something I always wanted to have: A LC mac and an Apple //e emulation > board :D :D :D No, no, no. The best is a Colour Classic and a IIe board. Then you have a "compact" IIe. And yes, I have such a thing. :) -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Diplomacy is the art of letting someone else get your way. ----------------- From cclist at sydex.com Tue Nov 24 11:53:06 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 09:53:06 -0800 Subject: BIT 483 / was Re: Non-fake Apple 1 on ebay In-Reply-To: <4B0B560A.7070005@tx.rr.com> References: , <4B07B9FD.20880.110DFE5@cclist.sydex.com>, <4B0B560A.7070005@tx.rr.com> Message-ID: <4B0BAD02.7272.13717A@cclist.sydex.com> On 23 Nov 2009 at 21:42, CSquared wrote: > I suppose it is all about what one becomes familiar with. At various times in my life, I've worked with systems whose documentation radix was variously decimal, octal and hex (and octal and hex at the same time in the same company). Talking about 60 bit words divided into 15-bit parcels makes sense in octal; 64-bit words make plenty of sense in hexidecimal, particularly if they're 8-bit byte oriented. It's kind of like musical notation--if you learn to read all clefs and can handle common transpositions without actively thinking about it, then there are many fewer surprises in store. --Chuck From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Nov 24 11:53:45 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 12:53:45 -0500 Subject: Got two RK05's, looking for a PDP-8 or 11 In-Reply-To: <016a01ca6d36$0ea29cc0$0301a8c0@Alexandre> References: <22B74C18CBAD47F58F2641A86D9148BC@sparks> <016a01ca6d36$0ea29cc0$0301a8c0@Alexandre> Message-ID: > ? I do believe the same can be done with DEC packs. An alignment pack must > be something on the same grounds. And easier to create than 5 1/4 disks :) Floppies and 14" packs are worlds apart. The latter are not very forgiving. -- Will From cclist at sydex.com Tue Nov 24 11:54:13 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 09:54:13 -0800 Subject: Switches & Blinky Light Front Panel for PC? In-Reply-To: References: <4B0BD328.5010102@gmail.com>, <4B0BF5A9.1020306@gmail.com>, Message-ID: <4B0BAD45.6834.14782C@cclist.sydex.com> On 24 Nov 2009 at 10:24, William Donzelli wrote: > Can even an 8088 be single stepped? There is a flag and interrupt dedicated to just that purpose. But I'd find single-cycling a bit more useful. --Chuck From teoz at neo.rr.com Tue Nov 24 11:54:53 2009 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 12:54:53 -0500 Subject: Ten Year Rule References: <6dbe3c380911240735n14776085r4fb431c329075356@mail.gmail.com><200911241631.nAOGVrSY013482@floodgap.com><6dbe3c380911240900u4f3d801al179423e11cd7e319@mail.gmail.com> <813E9F2D-FE07-4BE0-B451-102A6254C48E@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <2A182CA2C462414ABAC14EF3C27958CA@dell8300> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Guy Sotomayor" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, November 24, 2009 12:39 PM Subject: Re: Ten Year Rule > > On Nov 24, 2009, at 9:21 AM, Teo Zenios wrote: > >>> >> >> B&W G3's were giveaways a year ago or two ago, early G4 towers seem to >> heading there now. You have a window of a few years before the price >> start rising again and the units become hard to find (they all get >> recycled). Makes me wonder why recyclers have not opened up a warehouse >> to hold onto the better/cleaner systems for 5 years and make a profit >> selling on ebay or their own websites. > > Because warehouse space isn't free, taxes on inventory, etc. The (sad?) > reality is that from an economic standpoint it's much better for them to > get the scrap value now vs holding on for 5+ years. > > TTFN - Guy > Yea, like the scrappers around here pay taxes on anything. Every once in a while somebody brings in and old mint machine sometimes even with the original packaging that has much more collectable value then scrap value, stuff that on a shelve and wait a bit longer and profit. No need to hoard everything that comes in, just stuff them on shelving out of the way. Granted from what I seen locally the scrappers prize anything P4 or later and they get refurbed and resold (killing the used PC market for others who have to pay for machines to upgrade), but leaving the real old stuff for me pretty cheap so I guess I should not complain. From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Nov 24 11:57:00 2009 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 09:57:00 -0800 (PST) Subject: Power Macs and PC Compatibility Cards was Re: Ten Year Rule In-Reply-To: <94642DFFB3B2497DADE3420558027561@dell8300> from Teo Zenios at "Nov 24, 9 12:34:53 pm" Message-ID: <200911241757.nAOHv0Ld017318@floodgap.com> > That is what I am waiting for to snag the last G4's that boot into native OS > 9.x. Something tells me the G5 towers are going to be expensive like old > Amigas because they are the last of the PPC breed. I don't really care about > OSX at all, one of my B&W G3's (with a G4) runs it for web usage on a > separate HD. If you want Unix on a Mac fire up A/UX on a Quadra! I guard my quad G5 jealously, and I'm stockpiling parts for it. They are still selling used well over $1000. It is my daily driver system, and I have no plans to retire it. However, the dual 1.25GHz FW400 MDD G4s are dropping well under $300. I got a spare for my OS 9 development system already. I also picked up a body double 450MHz G4 Sawtooth as parts for my fileserver ($75). This is a great time for Power Mac collectors. > Hopefully the thrifts will be overflowing with boxed PPC software soon so I > can stock up (even now I run into hard to find 68k/ppc stuff at a local > thrift nobody else wants). I got a whole bunch of 68K software from, of all places, the local Kaiser hospital. They were selling their old stuff, a buck a box, in the library. I walked off with CricketGraph, NOW Utilities, ... -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- This message will self-destruct in five seconds. Good luck, Jim. -- M:I ---- From brianlanning at gmail.com Tue Nov 24 11:58:07 2009 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 11:58:07 -0600 Subject: Ten Year Rule In-Reply-To: <4B0C1CE0.9070704@snarc.net> References: <4B0BD328.5010102@gmail.com> <505389.30034.qm@web83905.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <4B0BF740.7000808@gmail.com> <394225.84135.qm@web83902.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <49EEECCB-4EC4-479E-BB06-F2C1BE917C80@neurotica.com> <4B0C15D3.5020509@snarc.net> <6dbe3c380911240930t4ad577ccnfc5f797b24add734@mail.gmail.com> <4B0C1CE0.9070704@snarc.net> Message-ID: <6dbe3c380911240958h7ae788a1i4bfe63d7bb0c79a6@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Nov 24, 2009 at 11:50 AM, Evan Koblentz wrote: > > Most of the newer / younger collectors are automatically going to Erik's >>> forum and will probably never even know about cctalk. >>> >>> >> What's the link to VCF? I'm not sure i've heard of that one. >> >> > .... And some cctalkers are so stuck in their text-email rut that they've > never heard of Google! ;) > > http://www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum > > But whatever you do, please don't call it VCF. There is only one VCF: > http://www.vintage.org > I've heard of vintage-computer.com. Just confused by the name. brian From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Tue Nov 24 12:58:04 2009 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 15:58:04 -0300 Subject: Cleaning packs References: Message-ID: <01ba01ca6d38$16209270$0301a8c0@Alexandre> > One thing that I fear is that the knowledge to *properly* clean a pack > is going away. There is (was?) a place near Boston that would do it, > and I am sure Farris can as well, but I know of no others. > It would be nice to document how packs are cleaned, so we can do this > in the future. I was going to ask the same, how do you clean a pack? (disclaimer: I have nothing DEC, although I had a 11/750 years ago...miss him. I'm asking just out of curiosity, to enhance my knowledge, blah blah blah. You have been warned. Your milegage may vary. Batteries not incluided, void were prohibited, blah blah blah.) :o) From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Nov 24 12:01:18 2009 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 10:01:18 -0800 (PST) Subject: Power Macs and PC Compatibility Cards was Re: Ten Year Rule In-Reply-To: from Dave McGuire at "Nov 24, 9 12:52:31 pm" Message-ID: <200911241801.nAOI1IEk017234@floodgap.com> > > I don't really care about OSX at all, one of my B&W G3's (with a > > G4) runs it for web usage on a separate HD. If you want Unix on a > > Mac fire up A/UX on a Quadra! > > Uh. What about if you want (and won't settle for less than) a top- > class UNIX workstation on your desk? The best way to do that these > days is with a Mac. > > I've got well over a hundred windows open on the machine I'm > typing this on. You can't really do that with A/UX on a Quadra. I am, and remain, a big fan of Power MachTen, and use it avidly on my blueberryBook. If your focus is Classic apps, which mine sometimes is, it turns OS X inside out: instead of Classic running on top of Mach, it is Mach running on top of OS 9. And Tenon still sells it ($99 and worth every penny), and it runs from 7.5 to 9.2.2. Natch, I have a page about it: http://www.floodgap.com/retrotech/machten/ -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Le fascisme est la dictature ouverte de la bourgeoisie. -- Georg Dimitrov -- From brianlanning at gmail.com Tue Nov 24 12:04:12 2009 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 12:04:12 -0600 Subject: Ten Year Rule In-Reply-To: <200911241752.nAOHqf3B017174@floodgap.com> References: <018301ca6d36$4645c6c0$0301a8c0@Alexandre> <200911241752.nAOHqf3B017174@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <6dbe3c380911241004j19213cccgb60bb12578bd4560@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Nov 24, 2009 at 11:52 AM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > Something I always wanted to have: A LC mac and an Apple //e > emulation > > board :D :D :D > > No, no, no. The best is a Colour Classic and a IIe board. Then you have a > "compact" IIe. > > And yes, I have such a thing. :) > ug, where can I ever get such a thing? color classics keep going for stupid prices on ebay. brian From cclist at sydex.com Tue Nov 24 12:06:08 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 10:06:08 -0800 Subject: Ten Year Rule In-Reply-To: <8A515E02-B7B0-49F8-9538-B0EEAF91E6C7@stillhq.com> References: <4B0BD328.5010102@gmail.com>, <8A515E02-B7B0-49F8-9538-B0EEAF91E6C7@stillhq.com> Message-ID: <4B0BB010.26271.1F6059@cclist.sydex.com> On 24 Nov 2009 at 23:45, Doug Jackson wrote: > Personally I work on the basis that 1982 is the cutoff year for > anything interesting Anything newer is only interesting if it isn't > powered by Intel or AMD. I'd take that back perhaps another 10 years to 1973. It's a little boring seeing systems with fixed power-of-two word lengths, 8-bit characters and predictable instruction sets, all implemented with MOS transistors. Go back to the 1950's and 60's and there were some really interesting systems. One of the VC Foruum posters picked up a batch of old PC boards--I noted that he had a card from a Packard Bell 250 in the collection. An interesting machine, if there ever was one. --Chuck From teoz at neo.rr.com Tue Nov 24 12:11:31 2009 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 13:11:31 -0500 Subject: Power Macs and PC Compatibility Cards was Re: Ten Year Rule References: <200911241711.nAOHBX9l013486@floodgap.com><94642DFFB3B2497DADE3420558027561@dell8300> Message-ID: <915897EABB6341D98A04AFF846815CA8@dell8300> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave McGuire" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, November 24, 2009 12:52 PM Subject: Re: Power Macs and PC Compatibility Cards was Re: Ten Year Rule > On Nov 24, 2009, at 12:34 PM, Teo Zenios wrote: >> I don't really care about OSX at all, one of my B&W G3's (with a G4) >> runs it for web usage on a separate HD. If you want Unix on a Mac fire >> up A/UX on a Quadra! > > Uh. What about if you want (and won't settle for less than) a top- > class UNIX workstation on your desk? The best way to do that these days > is with a Mac. > > I've got well over a hundred windows open on the machine I'm typing > this on. You can't really do that with A/UX on a Quadra. > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire > Port Charlotte, FL > I was just joking about that. A/UX is pretty much useless outside of workgroup server use (which it does well on old hardware), there just isn't much native software or hardware drivers. OSX is like Windows XP/Vista/7 to me, something to do work on. Pre Windows systems were interesting for the hardware , post windows machines are more interesting for the software. From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Tue Nov 24 13:08:51 2009 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 16:08:51 -0300 Subject: Ten Year Rule References: <200911241752.nAOHqf3B017174@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <01ea01ca6d39$c91ec1c0$0301a8c0@Alexandre> >> Something I always wanted to have: A LC mac and an Apple //e >> emulation >> board :D :D :D > No, no, no. The best is a Colour Classic and a IIe board. Then you have a > "compact" IIe. > And yes, I have such a thing. :) Wow :oD (drooling!) Seems I'm on marketing for a //e board. It is not THAT hard to find a colour classic around here... :o) From ggs at shiresoft.com Tue Nov 24 12:17:10 2009 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 10:17:10 -0800 Subject: Got two RK05's, looking for a PDP-8 or 11 In-Reply-To: <016a01ca6d36$0ea29cc0$0301a8c0@Alexandre> References: <22B74C18CBAD47F58F2641A86D9148BC@sparks> <016a01ca6d36$0ea29cc0$0301a8c0@Alexandre> Message-ID: On Nov 24, 2009, at 10:42 AM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >>> Maybe someone with a spare drive that could be dismantled and >>> someone >>> who could create the specific hardware to write analogically the >>> pack, >>> could create a machine for creating alignment packs?! :o) >>> It was done before with 5 1/4 disk drives... :oD >> Hmm, I was under the impression that the alignment packs had >> everything >> hard-coded as to ensure the alignment went okay. > > Well, I know nothing about DEC alignment packs. BUT I aligned some > hundred of 3 1/2 and 5 1/4 drives during my life, and the alignment > disk was a very simple disk...analog recorded. > > Someday, some clever guy just took out a sample of the patterns in > the analogic disk, created a system capable of reproducing it, > modified a 5 1/4 drive for analog recording (used the same head > amplifiers, but with his analog wizardry) and started to create > analog alignment disks for sale. He made a fortune. > > I do believe the same can be done with DEC packs. An alignment > pack must be something on the same grounds. And easier to create > than 5 1/4 disks :) It really depends upon the drive. On RL drives (5MB & 10MB) *any* good pack can serve as an alignment pack because of the embedded servo information (oh, floppies don't have that you say?). RL drives are also *incapable* of writing the servo information which is why a de- gaussed RL pack is worthless. On RK drives because there's no servo information, the alignment pack is written on a reference drive and the tracks are written to a precise tolerance. This is because the mechanism on the RK drive "dead reckons" to the track. On multi-platter pack drives (RK06,7, RP01,2,3,4,5,6, RM03,5, etc) you not only have to deal with head positioning but because you might have as many as 14 surfaces, you have to deal with "stack tilt". Floppies in many cases are the degenerate simple case of alignment. TTFN - Guy From teoz at neo.rr.com Tue Nov 24 12:27:39 2009 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 13:27:39 -0500 Subject: Power Macs and PC Compatibility Cards was Re: Ten Year Rule References: <200911241757.nAOHv0Ld017318@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <99749110B40E42D0BE97A924213C495E@dell8300> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Cameron Kaiser" To: Sent: Tuesday, November 24, 2009 12:57 PM Subject: Re: Power Macs and PC Compatibility Cards was Re: Ten Year Rule > I got a whole bunch of 68K software from, of all places, the local Kaiser > hospital. They were selling their old stuff, a buck a box, in the library. > I walked off with CricketGraph, NOW Utilities, ... > One of my most notable Mac software hauls came from a guy in CA who used to work at a defense contractor and saved some of the software, then gave it away. I think I got boxed 68K versions of Mathematica, MathCAD, Ashlar Vellum CAD, and some cool utilities. You can find old Mac graphics apps all over the place but anything CAD or scientific is very rare (non student versions are even harder to find). Oddly enough I found an old 68k copy of Designcad at a local thrift, if I didn't recognize the company logo on the all black box I would have missed it (used the DOS version at a previous job in the early 90's). From ggs at shiresoft.com Tue Nov 24 12:29:30 2009 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 10:29:30 -0800 Subject: Cleaning packs In-Reply-To: <01ba01ca6d38$16209270$0301a8c0@Alexandre> References: <01ba01ca6d38$16209270$0301a8c0@Alexandre> Message-ID: <965FAF64-3116-4F30-BCAE-31B88C6BE8D2@shiresoft.com> On Nov 24, 2009, at 10:58 AM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >> One thing that I fear is that the knowledge to *properly* clean a >> pack >> is going away. There is (was?) a place near Boston that would do it, >> and I am sure Farris can as well, but I know of no others. >> It would be nice to document how packs are cleaned, so we can do this >> in the future. > > I was going to ask the same, how do you clean a pack? Generally what I do is the following (note that I've only cleaned RK05 and RL packs): 1. blow out any dust/grime with compressed air 2. do an initial cleaning of the outside of the pack with alcohol and lint free cloths 3. disassemble the pack 4. clean platter with alcohol and lint free cloths. This also provides the opportunity to inspect the surfaces. I toss any platter that shows any abnormalities (cleaning up after a head crash is too time consuming to waste on a marginal pack) 5. clean the remainder of the pack with alcohol and lint free cloths. 6. use lots of compressed air 7. reassemble the pack It takes me 1/2 hour to 1 hour to clean a pack. I do this in a bright well lit and well ventilated space. I haven't had a single head crash since I started doing this. I've probably done a few dozen packs this way. However, I have ~300 pack backlog. :-( TTFN - Guy From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Tue Nov 24 12:31:36 2009 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 10:31:36 -0800 Subject: Switches & Blinky Light Front Panel for PC? References: <4B0BD328.5010102@gmail.com> <8A515E02-B7B0-49F8-9538-B0EEAF91E6C7@stillhq.com> <20091124160647.GA27987@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <4B0C2689.848103AC@cs.ubc.ca> Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > > http://www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum/showthread.php?t=17451 > > It is a PCjr and it looks really neat, there is a link to a youtube clip > there as well. Cute, but what's with the nibble bit-weights being 8420 instead of 8421? Did somebody screw up that badly or is there actually some rational for it? From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Nov 24 12:50:15 2009 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 10:50:15 -0800 Subject: Power Macs and PC Compatibility Cards was Re: Ten Year Rule In-Reply-To: <94642DFFB3B2497DADE3420558027561@dell8300> References: <200911241711.nAOHBX9l013486@floodgap.com> <94642DFFB3B2497DADE3420558027561@dell8300> Message-ID: <4B0C2AE7.4050807@bitsavers.org> Teo Zenios wrote: > > even now I run into hard to find 68k/ppc stuff at a > local thrift nobody else wants). > This is the window for cheap good condition PPC stuff. Grab it while you have the chance. My workhorse machines for data recovery are Wallstreet Powerbooks (last laptops with SCSI). I've been watching eBay recently, and it looks like few last generation Quadras are showing up there (early 90's). Systems I'm seeing there in general aren't in very good shape, and often have the SCSI disks stripped out. Most of the systems there are Performas/LC's, and tons of Powerbooks. The last year at Computer Recycling Center, pretty much nothing from the 68K Mac era was making it to the store. I'd stay away from the mirror-door G4's, BTW. There were problems with heat, and they sound like a wind tunnel. From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Nov 24 12:50:29 2009 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 10:50:29 -0800 (PST) Subject: Ten Year Rule In-Reply-To: <6dbe3c380911241004j19213cccgb60bb12578bd4560@mail.gmail.com> from Brian Lanning at "Nov 24, 9 12:04:12 pm" Message-ID: <200911241850.nAOIoTCI013642@floodgap.com> > > No, no, no. The best is a Colour Classic and a IIe board. Then you have a > > "compact" IIe. > > ug, where can I ever get such a thing? color classics keep going for stupid > prices on ebay. That's the problem: Colour Classics are "cute" and go for stupid high prices. I got mine, admittedly with all its accessories and in exceptional condition, for $100 and considered it a bargain. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- I don't mind lying, but I hate inaccuracy. -- Samuel Butler ---------------- From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Tue Nov 24 12:50:14 2009 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 12:50:14 -0600 Subject: Ten Year Rule In-Reply-To: References: <4B0BD328.5010102@gmail.com> <8A515E02-B7B0-49F8-9538-B0EEAF91E6C7@stillhq.com> <4B0BF298.1010401@gmail.com> <505389.30034.qm@web83905.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <4B0BF740.7000808@gmail.com> <394225.84135.qm@web83902.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <49EEECCB-4EC4-479E-BB06-F2C1BE917C80@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4B0C2AE6.1050100@gmail.com> William Donzelli wrote: >> It will sort itself out in 10 to 15 years when the last dozen members still >> here have nothing to talk about. > > A good point. Is it just me - I have been noticing less list traffic > over the years? I'm more-or-less in 'offline' mode until I eventually get my collection to the same spot where I am ($deity knows when that'll happen :) - I just skim-read the list every once in a while (2382 unread messages right now since July, so traffic certainly seems healthy) I think the list has always had busy and quiet periods. > Are people migrating to VCF? Hope not, unless the HTTP side is just a web view of a stock mailing list (in which case why isn't it *this* list!?). I find it hard to express how much I loathe web-based discussion; I'm yet to see an implementation that's even remotely good. Totally the wrong tool for the job IMHO... cheers Jules From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Nov 24 12:58:03 2009 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 10:58:03 -0800 (PST) Subject: Power Macs and PC Compatibility Cards was Re: Ten Year Rule In-Reply-To: <4B0C2AE7.4050807@bitsavers.org> from Al Kossow at "Nov 24, 9 10:50:15 am" Message-ID: <200911241858.nAOIw3te016704@floodgap.com> > I'd stay away from the mirror-door G4's, BTW. There were > problems with heat, and they sound like a wind tunnel. The first ones were a problem, but my dual 1.25GHz G4 has been steady as a rock (I've had it since 2003 with no problems). Plus, they are the fastest machines that can still boot OS 9, and that makes a big difference in CodeWarrior :) -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- BOND THEME NOW PLAYING: "Nobody Does It Better" from "The Spy Who Loved Me" From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Tue Nov 24 13:55:40 2009 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 16:55:40 -0300 Subject: Cleaning packs References: <01ba01ca6d38$16209270$0301a8c0@Alexandre> <965FAF64-3116-4F30-BCAE-31B88C6BE8D2@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <026f01ca6d40$73570de0$0301a8c0@Alexandre> > 4. clean platter with alcohol and lint free cloths. This also provides > the opportunity to inspect the surfaces. I toss any platter that shows > any abnormalities (cleaning up after a head crash is too time consuming > to waste on a marginal pack) Thanks for the info, Guy! Very interesting information! :o) But isn't there any kind of lubrification on the surfaces of these packs? From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Tue Nov 24 14:04:33 2009 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 17:04:33 -0300 Subject: Ten Year Rule References: <200911241850.nAOIoTCI013642@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <029001ca6d41$6118fd90$0301a8c0@Alexandre> > That's the problem: Colour Classics are "cute" and go for stupid high > prices. I got mine, admittedly with all its accessories and in exceptional > condition, for $100 and considered it a bargain. It could be worse, you could live in Brazil :o) http://produto.mercadolivre.com.br/MLB-101973188-color-classic-mac-apple-macintosh-completo-raridade--_JM R$ 1750 = Us$ 1030 People are getting **completely** crazy :o) From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Nov 24 13:07:35 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 14:07:35 -0500 Subject: Cleaning packs In-Reply-To: <026f01ca6d40$73570de0$0301a8c0@Alexandre> References: <01ba01ca6d38$16209270$0301a8c0@Alexandre> <965FAF64-3116-4F30-BCAE-31B88C6BE8D2@shiresoft.com> <026f01ca6d40$73570de0$0301a8c0@Alexandre> Message-ID: > ? Thanks for the info, Guy! Very interesting information! :o) But isn't > there any kind of lubrification on the surfaces of these packs? Air. Except for IBM 3348s, which have a silicone oil. -- Will From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Nov 24 13:16:38 2009 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 11:16:38 -0800 Subject: compact macs (was Re: Ten Year Rule) In-Reply-To: <029001ca6d41$6118fd90$0301a8c0@Alexandre> References: <200911241850.nAOIoTCI013642@floodgap.com> <029001ca6d41$6118fd90$0301a8c0@Alexandre> Message-ID: <4B0C3116.2050605@bitsavers.org> >> That's the problem: Colour Classics are "cute" and go for stupid high >> prices. There seems to be a cult following for them and SE/30's in Japan with people building internal expansion options, flash drives, putting in 040 Performa boards and moding the color displays to do VGA resolution. SE/30 ethernet boards seem to go for a lot of money as well. From brianlanning at gmail.com Tue Nov 24 13:22:03 2009 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 13:22:03 -0600 Subject: compact macs (was Re: Ten Year Rule) In-Reply-To: <4B0C3116.2050605@bitsavers.org> References: <200911241850.nAOIoTCI013642@floodgap.com> <029001ca6d41$6118fd90$0301a8c0@Alexandre> <4B0C3116.2050605@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <6dbe3c380911241122g6c78127dyd9c4adef814f30ce@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Nov 24, 2009 at 1:16 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > > That's the problem: Colour Classics are "cute" and go for stupid high >>> prices. >>> >> > There seems to be a cult following for them and SE/30's in Japan > with people building internal expansion options, flash drives, putting > in 040 Performa boards and moding the color displays to do VGA resolution. > > SE/30 ethernet boards seem to go for a lot of money as well. > The se/30 is on my list as well. I think the mac classic has a 68030 also, but I like the look of the se/30. brian From caveguy at sbcglobal.net Tue Nov 24 13:39:48 2009 From: caveguy at sbcglobal.net (Bob Bradlee) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 14:39:48 -0500 Subject: Ten Year Rule In-Reply-To: <98714C55-B0F2-4062-A90B-BC4131C6CB26@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <811413.73876.qm@smtp103.sbc.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> On Tue, 24 Nov 2009 12:03:59 -0500, Dave McGuire wrote: >On Nov 24, 2009, at 11:35 AM, Bob Bradlee wrote: >> I have an NT Server 3.5 (1994) 15 year old running on Dual 66mhz >> Pentinum processors with 32meg Ram. > Wow...Does 3.5 have decent multiprocessor support? > -Dave decent multiprocessor support ? what do you call decent, task swaps were noy real fast, but it worked. That box served up 80k hits one afternoon saturateing a dual channel ISDN line at 230k with compression. We did live coverage from OSU on national signing day on it for a few Buckeye football fans, as a stress test. From pat at computer-refuge.org Tue Nov 24 13:53:47 2009 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 14:53:47 -0500 Subject: Power Macs and PC Compatibility Cards was Re: Ten Year Rule In-Reply-To: References: <200911241711.nAOHBX9l013486@floodgap.com> <94642DFFB3B2497DADE3420558027561@dell8300> Message-ID: <200911241453.47980.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Tuesday 24 November 2009, Dave McGuire wrote: > On Nov 24, 2009, at 12:34 PM, Teo Zenios wrote: > > I don't really care about OSX at all, one of my B&W G3's (with a > > G4) runs it for web usage on a separate HD. If you want Unix on a > > Mac fire up A/UX on a Quadra! > > Uh. What about if you want (and won't settle for less than) a > top- class UNIX workstation on your desk? The best way to do that > these days is with a Mac. IBM p6 520 with a graphics card (or two)? :) Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Nov 24 13:57:05 2009 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 11:57:05 -0800 Subject: compact macs (was Re: Ten Year Rule) In-Reply-To: <6dbe3c380911241122g6c78127dyd9c4adef814f30ce@mail.gmail.com> References: <200911241850.nAOIoTCI013642@floodgap.com> <029001ca6d41$6118fd90$0301a8c0@Alexandre> <4B0C3116.2050605@bitsavers.org> <6dbe3c380911241122g6c78127dyd9c4adef814f30ce@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B0C3A91.7010904@bitsavers.org> Brian Lanning wrote: > The se/30 is on my list as well. I think the mac classic has a 68030 also, > but I like the look of the se/30. > There was a lot of repackaging of the same computer that went on with 68K Macs. The Classic was a repackaged SE, The Classic II was essentially an LC II. I had been fiddling around trying to decide which of the old 68K macs I liked the best. At the time, my favorite was the Q800 with a 40MHz processor, which was supported but never released because it was too close in performance to the 840AV. I hadn't played much with the Powerbooks, mostly because they were developed by a different group and we didn't have many prototypes around, so I picked up about a dozen different models the last couple of weeks on eBay cheap so I could get a better feel for them. It's interesting to look at how fast the technology advanced in them through the 90's, and how each one seems to be crippled in a different way so that in the end I didn't end up liking any of the 68K models. The 190cs should have been the best, being the last, but they left out ethernet, for example. From keithvz at verizon.net Tue Nov 24 13:56:55 2009 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith M) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 14:56:55 -0500 Subject: compact macs (was Re: Ten Year Rule) In-Reply-To: <6dbe3c380911241122g6c78127dyd9c4adef814f30ce@mail.gmail.com> References: <200911241850.nAOIoTCI013642@floodgap.com> <029001ca6d41$6118fd90$0301a8c0@Alexandre> <4B0C3116.2050605@bitsavers.org> <6dbe3c380911241122g6c78127dyd9c4adef814f30ce@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B0C3A87.8040507@verizon.net> Brian Lanning wrote: > The se/30 is on my list as well. I think the mac classic has a 68030 also, > but I like the look of the se/30. Could be wrong, but I thought the mac classic had only a 68k (aka no 030) Thanks Keith From pat at computer-refuge.org Tue Nov 24 14:00:44 2009 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 15:00:44 -0500 Subject: Ten Year Rule In-Reply-To: <817F3C43-6F30-4C3A-91FB-7ECB1E4A8629@neurotica.com> References: <4B0BD328.5010102@gmail.com> <4B0C0917.4040603@gmail.com> <817F3C43-6F30-4C3A-91FB-7ECB1E4A8629@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <200911241500.44340.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Tuesday 24 November 2009, Dave McGuire wrote: > On Nov 24, 2009, at 11:25 AM, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > >>> And which version of windows was it that ran on the dec alpha? > >> > >> ...and the MIPS-based DECstation-5000 line. That was NT. > > > > There was also the MIPS Magnum, running Windows NT too, right? And the IBM PC Power Series 440/830/850 and (860?) PPC laptop. A few years ago, I converted a few of the 850s to more useful Linux boxes. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Nov 24 14:07:21 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 15:07:21 -0500 Subject: Power Macs and PC Compatibility Cards was Re: Ten Year Rule In-Reply-To: <200911241453.47980.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <200911241711.nAOHBX9l013486@floodgap.com> <94642DFFB3B2497DADE3420558027561@dell8300> <200911241453.47980.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <5583776E-D82D-4767-8279-AC0CE7B92585@neurotica.com> On Nov 24, 2009, at 2:53 PM, Patrick Finnegan wrote: >>> I don't really care about OSX at all, one of my B&W G3's (with a >>> G4) runs it for web usage on a separate HD. If you want Unix on a >>> Mac fire up A/UX on a Quadra! >> >> Uh. What about if you want (and won't settle for less than) a >> top- class UNIX workstation on your desk? The best way to do that >> these days is with a Mac. > > IBM p6 520 with a graphics card (or two)? :) Mmmmmmmm, or that! 8-) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From brianlanning at gmail.com Tue Nov 24 14:07:47 2009 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 14:07:47 -0600 Subject: compact macs (was Re: Ten Year Rule) In-Reply-To: <4B0C3A91.7010904@bitsavers.org> References: <200911241850.nAOIoTCI013642@floodgap.com> <029001ca6d41$6118fd90$0301a8c0@Alexandre> <4B0C3116.2050605@bitsavers.org> <6dbe3c380911241122g6c78127dyd9c4adef814f30ce@mail.gmail.com> <4B0C3A91.7010904@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <6dbe3c380911241207u5576d808j6c7c512518a93c3@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Nov 24, 2009 at 1:57 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > It's interesting to look at how > fast the technology advanced in them through the 90's, and how each one > seems > to be crippled in a different way so that in the end I didn't end up liking > any of the 68K models. > I was watching a documentary a few weeks back on the macintosh. They had one of the original quicktime developers talking. He complained about one of the macs where the engineers had put the speaker too close to the hard drive. Whenever some loud music was pushed through the speaker, it would make the read head drift and crash the machine. He was still irate many years later that they would design it that way in the first place, but also because the engineer's original solution to the problem was to limit the power output of the speaker rather than relocate it. So far my exprience with macs has been an as-yet unsuccessful attempt to install the OS on a non-apple blessed hard drive. At this point I think i have all the pieces I need to get it going, just not enough time. brian From brianlanning at gmail.com Tue Nov 24 14:09:28 2009 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 14:09:28 -0600 Subject: compact macs (was Re: Ten Year Rule) In-Reply-To: <4B0C3A87.8040507@verizon.net> References: <200911241850.nAOIoTCI013642@floodgap.com> <029001ca6d41$6118fd90$0301a8c0@Alexandre> <4B0C3116.2050605@bitsavers.org> <6dbe3c380911241122g6c78127dyd9c4adef814f30ce@mail.gmail.com> <4B0C3A87.8040507@verizon.net> Message-ID: <6dbe3c380911241209y70ca6702x2717c9f61c4d2945@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Nov 24, 2009 at 1:56 PM, Keith M wrote: > Brian Lanning wrote: > > The se/30 is on my list as well. I think the mac classic has a 68030 >> also, >> but I like the look of the se/30. >> > > Could be wrong, but I thought the mac classic had only a 68k (aka no 030) > Yeah, I originally typed in the classic 2, but then deleted it when I wasn't if a machine had ever been created by that name. :-P My memory sucks. At least my lawn is free of whippersnappers. brian From oltmansg at bellsouth.net Tue Nov 24 14:10:21 2009 From: oltmansg at bellsouth.net (geoffrey oltmans) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 12:10:21 -0800 (PST) Subject: compact macs (was Re: Ten Year Rule) In-Reply-To: <4B0C3A91.7010904@bitsavers.org> References: <200911241850.nAOIoTCI013642@floodgap.com> <029001ca6d41$6118fd90$0301a8c0@Alexandre> <4B0C3116.2050605@bitsavers.org> <6dbe3c380911241122g6c78127dyd9c4adef814f30ce@mail.gmail.com> <4B0C3A91.7010904@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <141491.18109.qm@web83906.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Speaking of Powerbooks... what was the last Apple laptop to include a floppy drive? PPC is okay. I was thinking this would be an ideal way to convert disk images to IIgs compatible floppies. ________________________________ From: Al Kossow To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Sent: Tue, November 24, 2009 1:57:05 PM Subject: Re: compact macs (was Re: Ten Year Rule) Brian Lanning wrote: > The se/30 is on my list as well. I think the mac classic has a 68030 also, > but I like the look of the se/30. > There was a lot of repackaging of the same computer that went on with 68K Macs. The Classic was a repackaged SE, The Classic II was essentially an LC II. I had been fiddling around trying to decide which of the old 68K macs I liked the best. At the time, my favorite was the Q800 with a 40MHz processor, which was supported but never released because it was too close in performance to the 840AV. I hadn't played much with the Powerbooks, mostly because they were developed by a different group and we didn't have many prototypes around, so I picked up about a dozen different models the last couple of weeks on eBay cheap so I could get a better feel for them. It's interesting to look at how fast the technology advanced in them through the 90's, and how each one seems to be crippled in a different way so that in the end I didn't end up liking any of the 68K models. The 190cs should have been the best, being the last, but they left out ethernet, for example. From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Nov 24 14:24:43 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 15:24:43 -0500 Subject: compact macs (was Re: Ten Year Rule) In-Reply-To: <141491.18109.qm@web83906.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <200911241850.nAOIoTCI013642@floodgap.com> <029001ca6d41$6118fd90$0301a8c0@Alexandre> <4B0C3116.2050605@bitsavers.org> <6dbe3c380911241122g6c78127dyd9c4adef814f30ce@mail.gmail.com> <4B0C3A91.7010904@bitsavers.org> <141491.18109.qm@web83906.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6BF9B77D-4198-4FB3-A12F-0089A4561969@neurotica.com> On Nov 24, 2009, at 3:10 PM, geoffrey oltmans wrote: > Speaking of Powerbooks... what was the last Apple laptop to include > a floppy drive? PPC is okay. I was thinking this would be an ideal > way to convert disk images to IIgs compatible floppies. Hmm, my old 5300 had a floppy drive...that was one of the last ones. Did the WallStreet model have a floppy? It had a removable media bay, didn't it? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From brianlanning at gmail.com Tue Nov 24 14:28:51 2009 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 14:28:51 -0600 Subject: compact macs (was Re: Ten Year Rule) In-Reply-To: <141491.18109.qm@web83906.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <200911241850.nAOIoTCI013642@floodgap.com> <029001ca6d41$6118fd90$0301a8c0@Alexandre> <4B0C3116.2050605@bitsavers.org> <6dbe3c380911241122g6c78127dyd9c4adef814f30ce@mail.gmail.com> <4B0C3A91.7010904@bitsavers.org> <141491.18109.qm@web83906.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6dbe3c380911241228s2e344f9coa34968d67325dfc2@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Nov 24, 2009 at 2:10 PM, geoffrey oltmans wrote: > Speaking of Powerbooks... what was the last Apple laptop to include a > floppy drive? PPC is okay. I was thinking this would be an ideal way to > convert disk images to IIgs compatible floppies. > I've been looking for a good way to do this as well. I was about to attempt the ADTPro with a serial cable thing from a windows machine. I have the cable already, but again, no time. brian From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Tue Nov 24 13:36:19 2009 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 11:36:19 -0800 Subject: compact macs (was Re: Ten Year Rule) In-Reply-To: <6dbe3c380911241122g6c78127dyd9c4adef814f30ce@mail.gmail.com> References: <200911241850.nAOIoTCI013642@floodgap.com> <029001ca6d41$6118fd90$0301a8c0@Alexandre> <4B0C3116.2050605@bitsavers.org> <6dbe3c380911241122g6c78127dyd9c4adef814f30ce@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B0C35B3.8060801@mail.msu.edu> Brian Lanning wrote: > >> There seems to be a cult following for them and SE/30's in Japan >> with people building internal expansion options, flash drives, putting >> in 040 Performa boards and moding the color displays to do VGA resolution. >> >> SE/30 ethernet boards seem to go for a lot of money as well. >> >> > > The se/30 is on my list as well. I think the mac classic has a 68030 also, > but I like the look of the se/30. > > brian > > The Classic II does. The Classic is a straight 68000 and limited to 4mb of memory. The Classic II is also less expandable than the SE/30 (no real expansion slot, and 10mb memory max!) and is stuck with a 16-bit data bus. The SE/30 is definitely a cool machine. I have one dual booting NetBSD, used to be my web server in college :). (Easily the slowest NetBSD machine I've run to date, however...) The Color Classic is cute but similarly weak. But you can stick various other motherboards in there with little trouble (it has the same form-factor as some Performas) and get a 68040 and a decent amount of memory... Josh From oltmansg at bellsouth.net Tue Nov 24 14:38:57 2009 From: oltmansg at bellsouth.net (geoffrey oltmans) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 12:38:57 -0800 (PST) Subject: compact macs (was Re: Ten Year Rule) In-Reply-To: <6dbe3c380911241228s2e344f9coa34968d67325dfc2@mail.gmail.com> References: <200911241850.nAOIoTCI013642@floodgap.com> <029001ca6d41$6118fd90$0301a8c0@Alexandre> <4B0C3116.2050605@bitsavers.org> <6dbe3c380911241122g6c78127dyd9c4adef814f30ce@mail.gmail.com> <4B0C3A91.7010904@bitsavers.org> <141491.18109.qm@web83906.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <6dbe3c380911241228s2e344f9coa34968d67325dfc2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <385868.51762.qm@web83916.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Sweet! I knew about ADT, but not ADTPro. That looks like the thing I need, and it runs on OS X as well. Bonus. ________________________________ From: Brian Lanning To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Sent: Tue, November 24, 2009 2:28:51 PM Subject: Re: compact macs (was Re: Ten Year Rule) On Tue, Nov 24, 2009 at 2:10 PM, geoffrey oltmans wrote: > Speaking of Powerbooks... what was the last Apple laptop to include a > floppy drive? PPC is okay. I was thinking this would be an ideal way to > convert disk images to IIgs compatible floppies. > I've been looking for a good way to do this as well. I was about to attempt the ADTPro with a serial cable thing from a windows machine. I have the cable already, but again, no time. brian From brianlanning at gmail.com Tue Nov 24 14:46:28 2009 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 14:46:28 -0600 Subject: compact macs (was Re: Ten Year Rule) In-Reply-To: <385868.51762.qm@web83916.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <200911241850.nAOIoTCI013642@floodgap.com> <029001ca6d41$6118fd90$0301a8c0@Alexandre> <4B0C3116.2050605@bitsavers.org> <6dbe3c380911241122g6c78127dyd9c4adef814f30ce@mail.gmail.com> <4B0C3A91.7010904@bitsavers.org> <141491.18109.qm@web83906.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <6dbe3c380911241228s2e344f9coa34968d67325dfc2@mail.gmail.com> <385868.51762.qm@web83916.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6dbe3c380911241246m77118284rbd32bc865a2ddf64@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Nov 24, 2009 at 2:38 PM, geoffrey oltmans wrote: > Sweet! I knew about ADT, but not ADTPro. That looks like the thing I need, > and it runs on OS X as well. Bonus. > Ya! Pay special attention to the IN#2 trick. You can attach the cable to the modem port on a 2gs, or to a 2e with a super serial card, then type in#2. It downloads ADTPro into the 2gs/2e without having to boot to any floppy disk at all. No AppleDOS disk requried. Once it's up, you can use it to send over an AppleDOS disk image as the first one to write. It's a great way to bootstrap the computer from nothing, solving the chicken-or-egg problem. There's a youtube video out there showing the procedure. Maybe I should try to play with this tonight. :-) brian From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Nov 24 14:50:28 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 12:50:28 -0800 (PST) Subject: YATYD (Was: Ten Year Rule In-Reply-To: <4B0BD328.5010102@gmail.com> References: <4B0BD328.5010102@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20091124124455.Y69234@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 24 Nov 2009, Kirn Gill wrote: > I was thinking recently, and I know that the general threshold for > discussion on this list is ten years, but is that enough? > As it stands, given the rule of a minimum of ten years, most early > Pentium III PeeCees are listworthy for discussion. > In just two more years time, the world's most popular computer operating > system (as of the time of this email's writing) would be perfectly valid > to discuss, even as "on-topic". 2001 to 2011 is ten years, isn't it? NEVER! There are better places for THAT discussion. > I know that it's not a strict and absolute rule, being more just a > guideline than anything, but still, is ten years enough? > Personally, I'd give it fifteen, possibly twenty years for some piece of > computing history to be considered listworthy. The rule is NOT "ten years". The rule might have been "ten years" sometime in the early 90s, but a longer period has and is being gently and gradually phased in. Ever since the early nineties, increment the rule each year. if(NEWYEAR) rule++; Therefore, the current rule would be somewhere in the mid to upper 20s years. OK? -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From useddec at gmail.com Tue Nov 24 14:53:27 2009 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 14:53:27 -0600 Subject: Cleaning packs In-Reply-To: <965FAF64-3116-4F30-BCAE-31B88C6BE8D2@shiresoft.com> References: <01ba01ca6d38$16209270$0301a8c0@Alexandre> <965FAF64-3116-4F30-BCAE-31B88C6BE8D2@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <624966d60911241253n264b7dc5kfc0e5cbf1e1aeb6@mail.gmail.com> That's pretty much the method I use, mostly on RK05 packs. I think I still have 2 alignment packs, which I should clean before using. I had a homemade RK05 exercisor which also did alignments, but I loaned it to someone on the list to use, reverse engineer, and make available to the list about 2 years ago. Haven't heard from him since. I have 1 or 2 new linear positioners, and maybe a few used ones here somewhere Paul On Tue, Nov 24, 2009 at 12:29 PM, Guy Sotomayor wrote: > > On Nov 24, 2009, at 10:58 AM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > > One thing that I fear is that the knowledge to *properly* clean a pack >>> is going away. There is (was?) a place near Boston that would do it, >>> and I am sure Farris can as well, but I know of no others. >>> It would be nice to document how packs are cleaned, so we can do this >>> in the future. >>> >> >> I was going to ask the same, how do you clean a pack? >> > > Generally what I do is the following (note that I've only cleaned RK05 and > RL packs): > 1. blow out any dust/grime with compressed air > 2. do an initial cleaning of the outside of the pack with alcohol and lint > free cloths > 3. disassemble the pack > 4. clean platter with alcohol and lint free cloths. This also provides the > opportunity to inspect the surfaces. I toss any platter that shows any > abnormalities (cleaning up after a head crash is too time consuming to waste > on a marginal pack) > 5. clean the remainder of the pack with alcohol and lint free cloths. > 6. use lots of compressed air > 7. reassemble the pack > > It takes me 1/2 hour to 1 hour to clean a pack. I do this in a bright well > lit and well ventilated space. I haven't had a single head crash since I > started doing this. I've probably done a few dozen packs this way. > However, I have ~300 pack backlog. :-( > > TTFN - Guy > From hachti at hachti.de Tue Nov 24 14:55:33 2009 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 21:55:33 +0100 Subject: Siemens stuff in Kiel In-Reply-To: <4B09EF5F.8050209@acc.umu.se> References: <4B09907C.6030204@hachti.de> <4B09A9C4.3080606@update.uu.se> <4B09EF5F.8050209@acc.umu.se> Message-ID: <4B0C4845.8090002@hachti.de> G?ran Axelsson wrote: > [...Kongsberg] > Is it a complete machine? Yes. > Is it a computer or some peripheral? It is a plotter. Or better: A computer acting as plotter controller. > How big > is it? HUGE! > Any software, documentation or tapes left for it? At least complete documentation. Rest still unknown. > Is there any > way to tell the age of it? I assume early 70s. It's not yet decided what will happen to the Kongsberg machine. -- Philipp From oltmansg at bellsouth.net Tue Nov 24 14:56:29 2009 From: oltmansg at bellsouth.net (geoffrey oltmans) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 12:56:29 -0800 (PST) Subject: compact macs (was Re: Ten Year Rule) In-Reply-To: <6dbe3c380911241246m77118284rbd32bc865a2ddf64@mail.gmail.com> References: <200911241850.nAOIoTCI013642@floodgap.com> <029001ca6d41$6118fd90$0301a8c0@Alexandre> <4B0C3116.2050605@bitsavers.org> <6dbe3c380911241122g6c78127dyd9c4adef814f30ce@mail.gmail.com> <4B0C3A91.7010904@bitsavers.org> <141491.18109.qm@web83906.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <6dbe3c380911241228s2e344f9coa34968d67325dfc2@mail.gmail.com> <385868.51762.qm@web83916.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <6dbe3c380911241246m77118284rbd32bc865a2ddf64@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <407551.49144.qm@web83906.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> I've done the transfer before on a IIe with a super serial card... pretty nice that Apple put that into their firmware. ________________________________ From: Brian Lanning To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Sent: Tue, November 24, 2009 2:46:28 PM Subject: Re: compact macs (was Re: Ten Year Rule) On Tue, Nov 24, 2009 at 2:38 PM, geoffrey oltmans wrote: > Sweet! I knew about ADT, but not ADTPro. That looks like the thing I need, > and it runs on OS X as well. Bonus. > Ya! Pay special attention to the IN#2 trick. You can attach the cable to the modem port on a 2gs, or to a 2e with a super serial card, then type in#2. It downloads ADTPro into the 2gs/2e without having to boot to any floppy disk at all. No AppleDOS disk requried. Once it's up, you can use it to send over an AppleDOS disk image as the first one to write. It's a great way to bootstrap the computer from nothing, solving the chicken-or-egg problem. There's a youtube video out there showing the procedure. Maybe I should try to play with this tonight. :-) brian From evan at snarc.net Tue Nov 24 14:58:34 2009 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 15:58:34 -0500 Subject: YATYD (Was: Ten Year Rule In-Reply-To: <20091124124455.Y69234@shell.lmi.net> References: <4B0BD328.5010102@gmail.com> <20091124124455.Y69234@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4B0C48FA.4070200@snarc.net> > The rule is NOT "ten years". The rule might have been "ten years" sometime in the early 90s, but a longer period has and is being gently and gradually phased in. Ever since the early nineties, increment the rule each year. ... Therefore, the current rule would be somewhere in the mid to upper 20s years. Everyone should through the "rule" into the trash, because it'll always cause these dumb arguments and always have exceptions. Just use common sense. Nobody wants to discuss 386s here, and anyone who says "Windows" should be shot. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Nov 24 15:07:09 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 16:07:09 -0500 Subject: YATYD (Was: Ten Year Rule) Message-ID: On 11/24/09, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Tue, 24 Nov 2009, Kirn Gill wrote: >> I was thinking recently, and I know that the general threshold for >> discussion on this list is ten years, but is that enough? Guideline, not threshold. There are countless exceptions on both sides. >> As it stands, given the rule of a minimum of ten years, most early >> Pentium III PeeCees are listworthy for discussion. Guideline, not threshold. >> In just two more years time, the world's most popular computer operating >> system (as of the time of this email's writing) would be perfectly valid >> to discuss, even as "on-topic". 2001 to 2011 is ten years, isn't it? > > NEVER! > There are better places for THAT discussion. Indeed. The results of one of the many recurrent discussions of "The 10 Year Rule" is that it really comes down to "interesting machines are in, mainstream machines are out". The list of what falls in and what is still out, changes from year to year, but a rule of thumb is that there are plenty of places to go to ask for help fixing your Windows PC, and this is not the place for it. At one time, when MS-DOS was still in common use all over the planet, this was not the place to talk about those sorts of machines. I would suggest that now, DOS knowledge has become esoteric (the slide starting with the release of Windows 95, one could argue), and that discussion of boxes running MS-DOS could be on-topic. I would still suggest that Windows 98 and newer are quite off-topic and will be for a large number of years into the future (meaning greater-than-the-quantity-10). Windows 95 is kinda on the fence to me since there's a disconnect with Win98-and-later. Practically speaking, if you are fiddling with Windows 95 at this point, it's because you want to experience how things were 14 years ago. Windows 98, though, I would argue, is new enough that it's still a "modern" experience. If you wanted to discuss the Pentium FDIV bug and which chips were affected, I'd think that was on-topic. If you wanted to discuss what Windows drivers are needed for that very same machine, I'd say that's off-topic. Same hardware, different sides of the line. "Ten Years" isn't (and hasn't been for a while) the be-all-end-all criterion. -ethan From oltmansg at bellsouth.net Tue Nov 24 15:08:12 2009 From: oltmansg at bellsouth.net (geoffrey oltmans) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 13:08:12 -0800 (PST) Subject: Cleaning packs In-Reply-To: <624966d60911241253n264b7dc5kfc0e5cbf1e1aeb6@mail.gmail.com> References: <01ba01ca6d38$16209270$0301a8c0@Alexandre> <965FAF64-3116-4F30-BCAE-31B88C6BE8D2@shiresoft.com> <624966d60911241253n264b7dc5kfc0e5cbf1e1aeb6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <955042.57792.qm@web83906.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Dumb question (perhaps), but do the relative positions of the disk platters in the pack matter on these systems? I suppose it might for interleaving purposes for data already recorded. ________________________________ From: Paul Anderson To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Sent: Tue, November 24, 2009 2:53:27 PM Subject: Re: Cleaning packs That's pretty much the method I use, mostly on RK05 packs. I think I still have 2 alignment packs, which I should clean before using. I had a homemade RK05 exercisor which also did alignments, but I loaned it to someone on the list to use, reverse engineer, and make available to the list about 2 years ago. Haven't heard from him since. I have 1 or 2 new linear positioners, and maybe a few used ones here somewhere Paul On Tue, Nov 24, 2009 at 12:29 PM, Guy Sotomayor wrote: > > On Nov 24, 2009, at 10:58 AM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > > One thing that I fear is that the knowledge to *properly* clean a pack >>> is going away. There is (was?) a place near Boston that would do it, >>> and I am sure Farris can as well, but I know of no others. >>> It would be nice to document how packs are cleaned, so we can do this >>> in the future. >>> >> >> I was going to ask the same, how do you clean a pack? >> > > Generally what I do is the following (note that I've only cleaned RK05 and > RL packs): > 1. blow out any dust/grime with compressed air > 2. do an initial cleaning of the outside of the pack with alcohol and lint > free cloths > 3. disassemble the pack > 4. clean platter with alcohol and lint free cloths. This also provides the > opportunity to inspect the surfaces. I toss any platter that shows any > abnormalities (cleaning up after a head crash is too time consuming to waste > on a marginal pack) > 5. clean the remainder of the pack with alcohol and lint free cloths. > 6. use lots of compressed air > 7. reassemble the pack > > It takes me 1/2 hour to 1 hour to clean a pack. I do this in a bright well > lit and well ventilated space. I haven't had a single head crash since I > started doing this. I've probably done a few dozen packs this way. > However, I have ~300 pack backlog. :-( > > TTFN - Guy > From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Nov 24 15:10:54 2009 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 13:10:54 -0800 Subject: compact macs (was Re: Ten Year Rule) In-Reply-To: <141491.18109.qm@web83906.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <200911241850.nAOIoTCI013642@floodgap.com> <029001ca6d41$6118fd90$0301a8c0@Alexandre> <4B0C3116.2050605@bitsavers.org> <6dbe3c380911241122g6c78127dyd9c4adef814f30ce@mail.gmail.com> <4B0C3A91.7010904@bitsavers.org> <141491.18109.qm@web83906.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4B0C4BDE.8040805@bitsavers.org> geoffrey oltmans wrote: > Speaking of Powerbooks... what was the last Apple laptop to include a floppy drive? Wallstreet, in a media bay. I have used it for that purpose, It's easy(er) to clean the heads since it is easily removable. From brianlanning at gmail.com Tue Nov 24 15:12:34 2009 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 15:12:34 -0600 Subject: YATYD (Was: Ten Year Rule In-Reply-To: <4B0C48FA.4070200@snarc.net> References: <4B0BD328.5010102@gmail.com> <20091124124455.Y69234@shell.lmi.net> <4B0C48FA.4070200@snarc.net> Message-ID: <6dbe3c380911241312u45d07811g82e3865e3fa0af3b@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Nov 24, 2009 at 2:58 PM, Evan Koblentz wrote: > Everyone should through the "rule" into the trash, because it'll always > cause these dumb arguments and always have exceptions. Just use common > sense. Nobody wants to discuss 386s here, and anyone who says "Windows" > should be shot. > I want to discuss 386s. :-) But I agree on the windows sentiment, unless it's doing something simultaneously cool and useless, like getting windows 95 to somehow run on a 68k machine. brian From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Nov 24 15:14:19 2009 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 16:14:19 -0500 Subject: Ten Year Rule In-Reply-To: <200911241500.44340.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <4B0BD328.5010102@gmail.com> <4B0C0917.4040603@gmail.com> <817F3C43-6F30-4C3A-91FB-7ECB1E4A8629@neurotica.com> <200911241500.44340.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <4B0C4CAB.7080406@gmail.com> Patrick Finnegan wrote: > On Tuesday 24 November 2009, Dave McGuire wrote: >> On Nov 24, 2009, at 11:25 AM, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >>>>> And which version of windows was it that ran on the dec alpha? >>>> >>>> ...and the MIPS-based DECstation-5000 line. That was NT. >>> >>> There was also the MIPS Magnum, running Windows NT too, right? > > And the IBM PC Power Series 440/830/850 and (860?) PPC laptop. A few > years ago, I converted a few of the 850s to more useful Linux boxes. I didn't know those machines ran Windows NT. I've always run AIX 4.1.5 on them. Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Nov 24 15:17:39 2009 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 16:17:39 -0500 Subject: compact macs (was Re: Ten Year Rule) In-Reply-To: <6dbe3c380911241228s2e344f9coa34968d67325dfc2@mail.gmail.com> References: <200911241850.nAOIoTCI013642@floodgap.com> <029001ca6d41$6118fd90$0301a8c0@Alexandre> <4B0C3116.2050605@bitsavers.org> <6dbe3c380911241122g6c78127dyd9c4adef814f30ce@mail.gmail.com> <4B0C3A91.7010904@bitsavers.org> <141491.18109.qm@web83906.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <6dbe3c380911241228s2e344f9coa34968d67325dfc2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B0C4D73.5030802@gmail.com> Brian Lanning wrote: >> Speaking of Powerbooks... what was the last Apple laptop to include a >> floppy drive? PPC is okay. I was thinking this would be an ideal way to >> convert disk images to IIgs compatible floppies. >> > > I've been looking for a good way to do this as well. I was about to attempt > the ADTPro with a serial cable thing from a windows machine. I have the > cable already, but again, no time. I can vouch for ADTpro working well. Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Nov 24 15:17:58 2009 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 16:17:58 -0500 Subject: compact macs (was Re: Ten Year Rule) In-Reply-To: <385868.51762.qm@web83916.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <200911241850.nAOIoTCI013642@floodgap.com> <029001ca6d41$6118fd90$0301a8c0@Alexandre> <4B0C3116.2050605@bitsavers.org> <6dbe3c380911241122g6c78127dyd9c4adef814f30ce@mail.gmail.com> <4B0C3A91.7010904@bitsavers.org> <141491.18109.qm@web83906.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <6dbe3c380911241228s2e344f9coa34968d67325dfc2@mail.gmail.com> <385868.51762.qm@web83916.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4B0C4D86.9020908@gmail.com> geoffrey oltmans wrote: > Sweet! I knew about ADT, but not ADTPro. That looks like the thing I need, and it runs on OS X as well. Bonus. ADTPro works better than ADT. Peace... Sridhar From teoz at neo.rr.com Tue Nov 24 15:20:52 2009 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 16:20:52 -0500 Subject: compact macs (was Re: Ten Year Rule) References: <200911241850.nAOIoTCI013642@floodgap.com><029001ca6d41$6118fd90$0301a8c0@Alexandre><4B0C3116.2050605@bitsavers.org><6dbe3c380911241122g6c78127dyd9c4adef814f30ce@mail.gmail.com><4B0C3A91.7010904@bitsavers.org><141491.18109.qm@web83906.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <6BF9B77D-4198-4FB3-A12F-0089A4561969@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <5E89E5F29BBC4307A92A061F690519D8@dell8300> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave McGuire" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, November 24, 2009 3:24 PM Subject: Re: compact macs (was Re: Ten Year Rule) > On Nov 24, 2009, at 3:10 PM, geoffrey oltmans wrote: >> Speaking of Powerbooks... what was the last Apple laptop to include a >> floppy drive? PPC is okay. I was thinking this would be an ideal way to >> convert disk images to IIgs compatible floppies. > > > Hmm, my old 5300 had a floppy drive...that was one of the last ones. > Did the WallStreet model have a floppy? It had a removable media bay, > didn't it? > > -Dave > The Wallstreet had a removable floppy drive, but I think most shipped with CDROM except maybe the original cheap 12" LCD version. There is also a LS-120 superdisk option and ZIP drive along with DVD. Later Lombards and Pismos has LS-120 drive options I think. From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Tue Nov 24 16:17:12 2009 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 19:17:12 -0300 Subject: YATYD (Was: Ten Year Rule References: <4B0BD328.5010102@gmail.com> <20091124124455.Y69234@shell.lmi.net> <4B0C48FA.4070200@snarc.net> Message-ID: <048d01ca6d54$6f9de660$0301a8c0@Alexandre> > sense. Nobody wants to discuss 386s here, and anyone who says "Windows" > should be shot. YOU SAID! Bang! :o) From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Tue Nov 24 15:24:52 2009 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 15:24:52 -0600 Subject: Ten Year Rule In-Reply-To: <4B0C15D3.5020509@snarc.net> References: <4B0BD328.5010102@gmail.com> <8A515E02-B7B0-49F8-9538-B0EEAF91E6C7@stillhq.com> <4B0BF298.1010401@gmail.com> <505389.30034.qm@web83905.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <4B0BF740.7000808@gmail.com> <394225.84135.qm@web83902.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <49EEECCB-4EC4-479E-BB06-F2C1BE917C80@neurotica.com> <4B0C15D3.5020509@snarc.net> Message-ID: <4B0C4F24.5010201@brutman.com> Evan Koblentz wrote: > > Many people, like me, use both options. However sometimes I do get > frustrated on Erik's forum because, as expected, there are many posts > about things that I consider "too new" to be collectible (see that YATYR > thread!) We have a problem over at VC Forum that a lot of the cctalk list would not be able to deal with - people who think a Pentium is an antique. There are a lot of what the cctalk group would consider 'newbs'. I like both formats. I participate here for the more hard-core discussions, even though a lot of what passes through here is off topic. I participate over at VC Forum because I am interested in more 8 bit and PC type hardware, and there are some very good people participating there. I know that Chuck and Dwight are in both places as well .. Read and lurk first .. Mike From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Nov 24 15:25:21 2009 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 16:25:21 -0500 Subject: YATYD (Was: Ten Year Rule In-Reply-To: <20091124124455.Y69234@shell.lmi.net> References: <4B0BD328.5010102@gmail.com> <20091124124455.Y69234@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4B0C4F41.5030209@gmail.com> Fred Cisin wrote: > The rule is NOT "ten years". > The rule might have been "ten years" sometime in the early 90s, but a > longer period has and is being gently and gradually phased in. Ever since > the early nineties, increment the rule each year. > if(NEWYEAR) rule++; > > Therefore, the current rule would be somewhere in the mid to upper 20s > years. > > OK? No. Peace... Sridhar From teoz at neo.rr.com Tue Nov 24 15:28:20 2009 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 16:28:20 -0500 Subject: compact macs (was Re: Ten Year Rule) References: <200911241850.nAOIoTCI013642@floodgap.com> <029001ca6d41$6118fd90$0301a8c0@Alexandre> <4B0C3116.2050605@bitsavers.org><6dbe3c380911241122g6c78127dyd9c4adef814f30ce@mail.gmail.com> <4B0C3A91.7010904@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <8FCB0A31D0AD4DAEAE25350FCDEF66E1@dell8300> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Al Kossow" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, November 24, 2009 2:57 PM Subject: Re: compact macs (was Re: Ten Year Rule) > I had been fiddling around trying to decide which of the old 68K macs I > liked > the best. At the time, my favorite was the Q800 with a 40MHz processor, > which > was supported but never released because it was too close in performance > to > the 840AV. I hadn't played much with the Powerbooks, mostly because they > were > developed by a different group and we didn't have many prototypes around, > so > I picked up about a dozen different models the last couple of weeks on > eBay > cheap so I could get a better feel for them. It's interesting to look at > how > fast the technology advanced in them through the 90's, and how each one > seems > to be crippled in a different way so that in the end I didn't end up > liking > any of the 68K models. The 190cs should have been the best, being the > last, > but they left out ethernet, for example. > > What was crippled in the Mac II and Quadra series? I think it was kind of odd Apple didn't include some cache for the fastest machines like the Q800/840av/950. I have an aftermarket 950 CPU upgrade that is 68040/50 (overclocked 40mhz) with some cache and it is faster then stock for sure. Another machine has a Daystar PPC 601-80 and between that card and the 950 mainboard you can stuff 384MB of RAM and have it usable on the 68K side (no idea what you could use it all for). While the workstations were decent Apple did shortchange everything else so it would not be as fast as the more expensive models (ram limits, bus speed, cpu options, upgrade slots, etc). From hachti at hachti.de Tue Nov 24 15:28:53 2009 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 22:28:53 +0100 Subject: Ten Year Rule In-Reply-To: <8A515E02-B7B0-49F8-9538-B0EEAF91E6C7@stillhq.com> References: <4B0BD328.5010102@gmail.com> <8A515E02-B7B0-49F8-9538-B0EEAF91E6C7@stillhq.com> Message-ID: <4B0C5015.2090909@hachti.de> Hi, > Personally I work on the basis that 1982 is the cutoff year for anything > interesting Anything newer is only interesting if it isn't powered by > Intel or AMD. My rule of thumb is that I collect stuff that's older than me (I'm from 1978). I have some newer stuff like Atari ST, that's a personal thing. And some other items from the 80s. Even a paper tape reader from ca. 1990! - The newer items have to have their roots in the right times at least. So the pdp11/23+ from 1983 is still (hardly) acceptable for me - but not a C64 :-) Best wishes, Philipp :) From hachti at hachti.de Tue Nov 24 15:30:57 2009 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 22:30:57 +0100 Subject: Ten Year Rule In-Reply-To: <4B0BF740.7000808@gmail.com> References: <4B0BD328.5010102@gmail.com> <8A515E02-B7B0-49F8-9538-B0EEAF91E6C7@stillhq.com> <4B0BF298.1010401@gmail.com> <505389.30034.qm@web83905.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <4B0BF740.7000808@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B0C5091.5000508@hachti.de> >> Most old machines that people would consider "interesting" >> on this list I'm sure would use far less than 128MB of system memory >> for example. Mega bytes??!? rofl From hachti at hachti.de Tue Nov 24 15:32:19 2009 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 22:32:19 +0100 Subject: Ten Year Rule In-Reply-To: <49EEECCB-4EC4-479E-BB06-F2C1BE917C80@neurotica.com> References: <4B0BD328.5010102@gmail.com> <8A515E02-B7B0-49F8-9538-B0EEAF91E6C7@stillhq.com> <4B0BF298.1010401@gmail.com> <505389.30034.qm@web83905.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <4B0BF740.7000808@gmail.com> <394225.84135.qm@web83902.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <49EEECCB-4EC4-479E-BB06-F2C1BE917C80@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4B0C50E3.6020200@hachti.de> Dave McGuire wrote: > > ...which is precisely why this discussion comes up about once a year, > and always ends unresolved. ...But it's funny - for me at last :-) From teoz at neo.rr.com Tue Nov 24 15:33:56 2009 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 16:33:56 -0500 Subject: compact macs (was Re: Ten Year Rule) References: <200911241850.nAOIoTCI013642@floodgap.com><029001ca6d41$6118fd90$0301a8c0@Alexandre> <4B0C3116.2050605@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <2E36FD01CD1F44678F6C593BEDC7491F@dell8300> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Al Kossow" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, November 24, 2009 2:16 PM Subject: compact macs (was Re: Ten Year Rule) > >>> That's the problem: Colour Classics are "cute" and go for stupid high >>> prices. > > There seems to be a cult following for them and SE/30's in Japan > with people building internal expansion options, flash drives, putting > in 040 Performa boards and moding the color displays to do VGA resolution. > > SE/30 ethernet boards seem to go for a lot of money as well. > > I have a pair of SE/30's both with ethernet, they are the best B&W compact made with plenty of (expensive) upgrades to make them more usable if you like. The color classic is a crippled machine, and stuffing an 040 motherboard inside one needs some hardware mods to fit. You can use a Sonnet Presto Plus upgrade (68040/33, 32MB RAM, ethernet) if you can find one to keep it stock looking. From spedraja at ono.com Tue Nov 24 15:34:22 2009 From: spedraja at ono.com (SPC) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 22:34:22 +0100 Subject: HPEMU Message-ID: Just curious... What happened with this project ? There is a *broken* link in www.hp1000.org pointing to www.classiccmp.org Regards Sergio From pontus at Update.UU.SE Tue Nov 24 15:42:04 2009 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 22:42:04 +0100 Subject: Ten Year Rule In-Reply-To: <4B0C4F24.5010201@brutman.com> References: <8A515E02-B7B0-49F8-9538-B0EEAF91E6C7@stillhq.com> <4B0BF298.1010401@gmail.com> <505389.30034.qm@web83905.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <4B0BF740.7000808@gmail.com> <394225.84135.qm@web83902.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <49EEECCB-4EC4-479E-BB06-F2C1BE917C80@neurotica.com> <4B0C15D3.5020509@snarc.net> <4B0C4F24.5010201@brutman.com> Message-ID: <20091124214204.GA8163@Update.UU.SE> > We have a problem over at VC Forum that a lot of the cctalk list > would not be able to deal with - people who think a Pentium is an > antique. There are a lot of what the cctalk group would consider > 'newbs'. Well, without the newbs the community will slowly die away. I like to see young people getting interested in what I'm interested in. Let them talk about their "vintage" Pentium and hope they discover the cool stuff in the "Minis and Mainframes" section. It is really not a problem, it is easy to filter. I don't read half of what is posted to cctech and cctalk anyway. > I like both formats. I participate here for the more hard-core > discussions, even though a lot of what passes through here is off > topic. I participate over at VC Forum because I am interested in > more 8 bit and PC type hardware, and there are some very good people > participating there. You put the head on the nail there, for me it is the people not the technology that makes me communicate in the rigid and one dimensional style of mailing lists and endure blinking smileys and spam in phpBB forums. (phpBB is a _very_ common package for running internet forums) > I know that Chuck and Dwight are in both places as well .. I'm in both and I also visit http://forums.nekochan.net/ for my daily dose of SGI. Kind regards, Pontus. From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Tue Nov 24 16:02:57 2009 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 16:02:57 -0600 Subject: Ten Year Rule In-Reply-To: <20091124214204.GA8163@Update.UU.SE> References: <8A515E02-B7B0-49F8-9538-B0EEAF91E6C7@stillhq.com> <4B0BF298.1010401@gmail.com> <505389.30034.qm@web83905.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <4B0BF740.7000808@gmail.com> <394225.84135.qm@web83902.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <49EEECCB-4EC4-479E-BB06-F2C1BE917C80@neurotica.com> <4B0C15D3.5020509@snarc.net> <4B0C4F24.5010201@brutman.com> <20091124214204.GA8163@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <4B0C5811.7000901@brutman.com> Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > Well, without the newbs the community will slowly die away. I like to > see young people getting interested in what I'm interested in. Let them > talk about their "vintage" Pentium and hope they discover the cool stuff > in the "Minis and Mainframes" section. > I'm in both and I also visit http://forums.nekochan.net/ for my daily > dose of SGI. > > Kind regards, > Pontus. Hi Pontus, We need the newbs, and we need to be gentle to them. But newbs can get annoying when they just babble endlessly and refuse to do basic research. The good news is that we can try to moderate or filter a lot of that out. Not only did I miss you as a participant of both forums, but you also appear on the IRC channel sometimes. That makes you seriously addicted. :-) If anybody wants to look, this is the link to the web forum. http://www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum/ Regards, Mike From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Nov 24 14:44:57 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 20:44:57 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Ten Year Rule In-Reply-To: <4B0BD328.5010102@gmail.com> from "Kirn Gill" at Nov 24, 9 07:35:52 am Message-ID: > > I was thinking recently, and I know that the general threshold for > discussion on this list is ten years, but is that enough? > > As it stands, given the rule of a minimum of ten years, most early > Pentium III PeeCees are listworthy for discussion. I have a similar problem looking on E-bay. Eay (at least the UK one) has a category of #vintage computing'. I really have diffuclty classing 72 pin SIMMs and Pentium motherboards as 'vintage'... I would really hate it if this list became a mostly old PC (or Mac) list. IMHO there are better places to discuss such machines (no, I don't know hwere said places are). Another random thought... Some years ago I was a memer of a computer clu which has a 'hardware and old systems SIG'. THose two interests were grouped togther not just because there was one member who hacked hardware and also ran old systems (I wonder who that was ;-)), but also because it was successfully argued that if you wanted to run an old system you pretty much has to know enough about hardware to fix it yourself, and conversely an old system (even then) was something that you _could_ fix properly (you know, with a soldering iron and 'scope...) Perhaps the criterion for classicness should be that the machine is treated at a much lower level than 'The DVD-ROM goes in here and then you click here' sort of thing. > I have a Dell OptiPlex GX110 that could be discussed here; the machine > is twelve years old, and if I am not mistaken, twelve is greater than > ten. (For those of you that live in alternate realities in which twelve > is *not* greater than ten, please disregard this whole email.) I also 12 (octal) = 10 (decimal) (Sorry couldn't resist, I spand far too much time working in octal, and no I am not missing 2 fingers) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Nov 24 14:48:09 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 20:48:09 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Ten Year Rule In-Reply-To: <8A515E02-B7B0-49F8-9538-B0EEAF91E6C7@stillhq.com> from "Doug Jackson" at Nov 24, 9 11:45:48 pm Message-ID: > > > Personally I work on the basis that 1982 is the cutoff year for > anything interesting Anything newer is only interesting if it isn't > powered by Intel or AMD. AMD made some very interesting bit-slice chips that I am sure were used in machines after 1982. Surely those count as 'classics'. Even if you meant (as I suspect) 80x86 family processors, I would argue that what I call 'IBM incompatibles' should remain on topic here. Those are machines with an 80x86 processr running MS-DOS or CP/M 86 but which are not hardware (and often not BIOS-level) compatible with the IBM 5150. Things like the HP110, HP150, DEC Rainbow, FTS 88, Sirius (Victo 9000) and so on. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Nov 24 15:17:06 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 21:17:06 +0000 (GMT) Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 75, Issue 39 In-Reply-To: <889BFE011CA043569FAFDF3755546781@sparks> from "John Ball" at Nov 24, 9 07:37:43 am Message-ID: > > >My expeirience is that if you have a drive with a correctly-aligned > >positioner/head assemly, you can remove it as an assembly, and put it > >back in _the same drive_ and it will still be alighed. But if you move > >positioenrs between drives you have to do a realignment. > > In my case unfortunately that would not be the case as the best I can find > are two other units in unknown condition from a completely different set of > drives. The RK05 can format a completley blank pack, there is no servo information, or anything like that to worry about. If the heads are slighlty misaligned (as they will be if you just drop in a positiioner), the drive will he able to read/write packs that haev been formatted on that drive, but you won't be able to interchange them with other drives. But at least you can test the drives before doing an alignment (in fact you _must_ do this, you want ot be sure the heads will fly and not crash before putting a rate alignment pack into the drive). > I can easily get hold of a scope but a calibration pack is a different > story. They are not easy to find. The good news is that companies other than DEC made compatible drives (the RK05 was y no means the first!) and that the alignment packs for these will do for an RK05 too. I am told you can even use the alignnment pack from a low-density dirve (RK02-compatible) if you stick a little bit of shim in the centre hole of the hu. THe details are in one of the DEC maintenance manuals. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Nov 24 15:20:22 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 21:20:22 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Ten Year Rule In-Reply-To: <760911.36678.qm@web83906.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> from "geoffrey oltmans" at Nov 24, 9 07:37:54 am Message-ID: > > Yep... best not touch it. A "classic" computer is really an amorphous > designation, so it would be nigh impossible to completely categorize it. I seem to rememeber we couldn't even agree on an exact definition for 'computer' There are far to many orderline cases... If you find a person, aged over 10, who operates a calculating machine, can he or she be discussed here? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Nov 24 15:23:34 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 21:23:34 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Switches & Blinky Light Front Panel for PC? In-Reply-To: <20091124160647.GA27987@Update.UU.SE> from "Pontus Pihlgren" at Nov 24, 9 05:06:47 pm Message-ID: > > On Tue, Nov 24, 2009 at 06:59:28AM -0800, Rick Bensene wrote: > > OK, so this might break the ten year rule, but I'm curious. > > > > Has anyone ever built a switches and lights front panel for a PC? > > Sort of: > > http://www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum/showthread.php?t=17451 > > It is a PCjr and it looks really neat, there is a link to a youtube clip > there as well. I seem to rememebr it's easier to do this on a PCjr than on a PC (ISA bus). The reason is that the PCjr doesn't have a DMA controller, but had the signals brought out to the expansion connector to allow one to be added. And those signals, of course, include the bus request and grant lines so the DMA cotnroller can take over the bus from the CPU. Which is exactly what you need to add a hardware frontpanel (at least to access memory and I/O devices). I think most 16 bit ISA ssytems have a signal on the bus slots which lets you do that, but I will have to check the 5170 techref... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Nov 24 15:34:03 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 21:34:03 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Cleaning packs In-Reply-To: from "William Donzelli" at Nov 24, 9 12:43:31 pm Message-ID: > It would be nice to document how packs are cleaned, so we can do this > in the future. For RK05s (which is what we started out discussing), the procedure for cleaning the pack is in the maintenance manual. This is a fairly complete procesure involving opening the plastic case and cleaning the disk iteslf with a 91%/9% misuture of propan-2-ol and distilled water. At least one edition of the manual includes the wonderful instruction 'Dry dust can be blwon of wiht the mouth. Do NOT spit on the disk' Also, IIRC, when reassembling the casing, you _must_ insert a screw then turn it anticlockwise until the threads engange before doing it up. If you cut a new thread in the plastic (self tapping screws), you run the risk of puting little bits of plastic on the disk. For the RLs and RK07s, etc, DEC specifically told you not to attempt any cleaning other than the outside of the plasic housing. I would be very interested to know how to go further than that! -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Nov 24 15:39:19 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 21:39:19 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Ten Year Rule In-Reply-To: <4B0BB010.26271.1F6059@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Nov 24, 9 10:06:08 am Message-ID: > I'd take that back perhaps another 10 years to 1973. It's a little > boring seeing systems with fixed power-of-two word lengths, 8-bit > characters and predictable instruction sets, all implemented with MOS > transistors. I have a a few machines from the early 1980s with 20 bit word length (so not a power of 2), variable instruciton set (the microcode is loaded from disk at power-on), and the CPU is mostly made from bipolar ICs. OK, they do use 8-bit characters. -tony From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Nov 24 16:06:34 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 17:06:34 -0500 Subject: Cleaning packs In-Reply-To: <955042.57792.qm@web83906.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <01ba01ca6d38$16209270$0301a8c0@Alexandre> <965FAF64-3116-4F30-BCAE-31B88C6BE8D2@shiresoft.com> <624966d60911241253n264b7dc5kfc0e5cbf1e1aeb6@mail.gmail.com> <955042.57792.qm@web83906.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > Dumb question (perhaps), but do the relative positions of the disk platters in the pack matter on these systems? I suppose it might for interleaving purposes for data already recorded. Yes, it can. Some platters may hold only data, and others only servo. -- Will From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Nov 24 16:13:27 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 22:13:27 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Cleaning packs In-Reply-To: <955042.57792.qm@web83906.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> from "geoffrey oltmans" at Nov 24, 9 01:08:12 pm Message-ID: > > Dumb question (perhaps), but do the relative positions of the disk > platters in the pack matter on these systems? I suppose it might for > interleaving purposes for data already recorded. Yes! Most of these drives are hard-secotred, the sector start is determined by notches in the hub. If you move the platter(s) relative to the hub, you'll not be able to read the sectors any more. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Nov 24 16:16:40 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 22:16:40 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Epson HPIL interface Message-ID: I am trying to find something to put my latest E-bay purchase in. Note I am not saying that I am trying to find somewhere to put it, I have that problem whne I uy a complete computer system. This is just one PCB about 5" * 4" Let me start with some backgrounf information. Everybody rememebrs the Epson dot-matrix printes of the 1980s, things like the MX80, FX80 and so on. They had a standard Centronics interface on a 36 pin Blue Ribbon connector. What is less well knwon is that these printers have an 2*13 socket on the main PCB. 25 pins are used ,the other is a locating hey. This conenctor carries most of the Centronics signals, power lines, and a few others. It was designed for optional inteface PCBs, there is a blanking plate in the top case to allow access to a connector on such a PCB. For example, Epson made a couple of different serial interface PCBs. One was a bit-banger -- if a particular pin (P/S-) on the connector is pulled lwo, then data line D8 becomes a bit-banged serial input and the other 7 data lines are used to set the serial interface parameters. The other was a serail-parallel converter using a microcontroller with buffer memory. It jhad a parallel inteface to the printer. Now HP sold a couple of printers called the HP82905 and HP82906. These were based on Epson models -- in fact they _were_ Epson printers with different firmware to handle the HP command set. They were fitted with an Epson HPIB interface card as standard. But there was also a fairly rare HPIL interace card, made by HP. And that is what I have just bought. It's a PCB 82905-60001. It contains 2 chips, a 1LB3 (HPIL interface) and MK3870 (mask-programmed microcontorller) with the obvious support components. Since it just uses the stnadarsd parallel interface to the rwst of the printer, it should work in any Epson printer with that connector, no matter what firmeare is present (at least for printing text). After getting in on E-bay, but before it arrived, I remembered I had the Epson HPIB card somewhere. I could even rememebr were. I dug it out, and found it was missing a jackpost from the HPIB connector. 2 hours later, I had one fitted. No, it didn't take me that amount of time to find one, I just graed some brass ron and turned one. FWIW, the screw thread on the connecto that it screws into is 4-40 UNC, an odd choice (USA HPIB jackposts have a 6-32 thread on that end, and the Japanese normally use metric threads, so I would have expected either 6-32 UNC or M3 here). This board contains 16 TTL chips so should be triival to repair if it needs it. Anyway, the problem is that I am short of Epson printers. I have one. I thought it would be triivial to find such devices, but alas not. So questions 1) Does anyobody know which Epson models have this internal connector and which therefore could be used with the interfaces 2) Anyone know for sure what models the HP82905 and 82906 are based on? 3) Anyone in the London (England) area got any such printes that they want to sell cheaply? I suspect shipping them would be rather expensive, hense the 'London area' criterion. Obviously the HP models would be fine too, as would IBM5152 grapghics printers (the TechRef shows the connector I am talking about). Thanks in advance -tony From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Tue Nov 24 17:29:47 2009 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 20:29:47 -0300 Subject: Cleaning packs References: Message-ID: <133901ca6d5e$25406110$0301a8c0@Alexandre> > Also, IIRC, when reassembling the casing, you _must_ insert a screw then > turn it anticlockwise until the threads engange before doing it up. If > you cut a new thread in the plastic (self tapping screws), you run the > risk of puting little bits of plastic on the disk. This is something you should do in everything :) From doug at stillhq.com Tue Nov 24 16:43:56 2009 From: doug at stillhq.com (Doug Jackson) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 09:43:56 +1100 Subject: YATYD (Was: Ten Year Rule In-Reply-To: <4B0C48FA.4070200@snarc.net> References: <4B0BD328.5010102@gmail.com> <20091124124455.Y69234@shell.lmi.net> <4B0C48FA.4070200@snarc.net> Message-ID: <4B0C61AC.3000601@stillhq.com> Evan Koblentz wrote: >> The rule is NOT "ten years". The rule might have been "ten years" >> sometime in the early 90s, but a longer period has and is being >> gently and gradually phased in. Ever since the early nineties, >> increment the rule each year. ... Therefore, the current rule would >> be somewhere in the mid to upper 20s years. > Everyone should through the "rule" into the trash, because it'll > always cause these dumb arguments and always have exceptions. Just > use common sense. Nobody wants to discuss 386s here, and anyone who > says "Windows" should be shot. windows (duck) :-) From brain at jbrain.com Tue Nov 24 17:02:32 2009 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 17:02:32 -0600 Subject: Ten Year Rule In-Reply-To: <4B0C5811.7000901@brutman.com> References: <8A515E02-B7B0-49F8-9538-B0EEAF91E6C7@stillhq.com> <4B0BF298.1010401@gmail.com> <505389.30034.qm@web83905.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <4B0BF740.7000808@gmail.com> <394225.84135.qm@web83902.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <49EEECCB-4EC4-479E-BB06-F2C1BE917C80@neurotica.com> <4B0C15D3.5020509@snarc.net> <4B0C4F24.5010201@brutman.com> <20091124214204.GA8163@Update.UU.SE> <4B0C5811.7000901@brutman.com> Message-ID: <4B0C6608.30105@jbrain.com> My word, I leave for work, and look what I come back to! "Welcome Jim, you have a bazillion cc-talk messages!" So, since you all have wasted the better part of a day without coming to a conclusion, here's another coal for the fire: When is it appropriate to talk about a system that emulates a vintage machine, but contains additional functionality beyond the original emulated artifact? C64DTV is a trivial example. Is it in scope (due to the C64 heritage), out of scope (due to being newish) or must we only talk about certain parts until 2015 or so? PDP-11 on an FPGA + extras would be another example. /me is evil Jim From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Nov 24 17:08:21 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 15:08:21 -0800 (PST) Subject: YATYD: Ten Year Rule In-Reply-To: <49EEECCB-4EC4-479E-BB06-F2C1BE917C80@neurotica.com> References: <4B0BD328.5010102@gmail.com> <8A515E02-B7B0-49F8-9538-B0EEAF91E6C7@stillhq.com> <4B0BF298.1010401@gmail.com> <505389.30034.qm@web83905.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <4B0BF740.7000808@gmail.com> <394225.84135.qm@web83902.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <49EEECCB-4EC4-479E-BB06-F2C1BE917C80@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20091124150623.O69234@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 24 Nov 2009, Dave McGuire wrote: > ...which is precisely why this discussion comes up about once a > year, and always ends unresolved. We are unable to objectively clarify what would be interesting. We have a specific counter-example: "WINDOZE" other than that, the only appropriate machines for discussion are those that were around when I was young[er]. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Tue Nov 24 17:09:50 2009 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 23:09:50 +0000 Subject: Epson HPIL interface In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Looks very MX80 to me but the base colour is different, I know they would do heavy mods for large manufacturers so changing colour of the plastics is simple, Epson TX80 was used for the Commodore printer. Where I worked we made customised interfaces for viewdata many MX80 FX80 and RX80's went though our hands, TX80's we made into colour printers then badged as Integrex CX80 I only have the Commodore one at home and its all mine :) Dave Caroline From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Nov 24 17:19:57 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 15:19:57 -0800 (PST) Subject: Ten Year Rule In-Reply-To: <200911241629.nAOGT5eE015662@floodgap.com> References: <200911241629.nAOGT5eE015662@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <20091124151912.R69234@shell.lmi.net> > A good point. Is it just me - I have been noticing less list traffic > over the years? Are people migrating to VCF? Can I read that with PINE on a unix shell account? From chd_1 at nktelco.net Tue Nov 24 17:20:22 2009 From: chd_1 at nktelco.net (Charles H Dickman) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 18:20:22 -0500 Subject: Cleaning packs In-Reply-To: <965FAF64-3116-4F30-BCAE-31B88C6BE8D2@shiresoft.com> References: <01ba01ca6d38$16209270$0301a8c0@Alexandre> <965FAF64-3116-4F30-BCAE-31B88C6BE8D2@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <4B0C6A36.40700@nktelco.net> Guy Sotomayor wrote: > > Generally what I do is the following (note that I've only cleaned RK05 > and RL packs): > 1. blow out any dust/grime with compressed air > 2. do an initial cleaning of the outside of the pack with alcohol and > lint free cloths > 3. disassemble the pack > 4. clean platter with alcohol and lint free cloths. This also > provides the opportunity to inspect the surfaces. I toss any platter > that shows any abnormalities (cleaning up after a head crash is too > time consuming to waste on a marginal pack) > 5. clean the remainder of the pack with alcohol and lint free cloths. > 6. use lots of compressed air > 7. reassemble the pack > > It takes me 1/2 hour to 1 hour to clean a pack. I do this in a bright > well lit and well ventilated space. I haven't had a single head crash > since I started doing this. I've probably done a few dozen packs this > way. However, I have ~300 pack backlog. :-( > > TTFN - Guy Seems straightforward enough. What is the source of compressed air and what kind of lint free cloth do you use? Does vacuum have any use? I imagine the process of cleaning an RK05 drive would be very similar. Basically remove ALL the dust and then put it back together. Has anyone experience in cleaning an RK05 drive? I have one that was left open for several years before the machine was decommissioned. -chuck From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Nov 24 17:22:55 2009 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 15:22:55 -0800 (PST) Subject: Ten Year Rule In-Reply-To: <4B0C6608.30105@jbrain.com> from Jim Brain at "Nov 24, 9 05:02:32 pm" Message-ID: <200911242322.nAONMtT9014128@floodgap.com> > /me is evil /you sit in the corner damn you -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Perl: the only language that makes Welsh look acceptable. -- David Cantrell From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Nov 24 17:23:53 2009 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 15:23:53 -0800 (PST) Subject: Ten Year Rule In-Reply-To: <20091124151912.R69234@shell.lmi.net> from Fred Cisin at "Nov 24, 9 03:19:57 pm" Message-ID: <200911242323.nAONNrUA017270@floodgap.com> > > A good point. Is it just me - I have been noticing less list traffic > > over the years? Are people migrating to VCF? > > Can I read that with PINE on a unix shell account? If I can't read it in Lynx, it's dead to me. Example: Facebook -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- "I think you underestimate the sneakiness." -------------------------------- From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Nov 24 17:26:18 2009 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 15:26:18 -0800 (PST) Subject: compact macs (was Re: Ten Year Rule) In-Reply-To: <2E36FD01CD1F44678F6C593BEDC7491F@dell8300> from Teo Zenios at "Nov 24, 9 04:33:56 pm" Message-ID: <200911242326.nAONQItt014802@floodgap.com> > I have a pair of SE/30's both with ethernet, they are the best B&W compact > made with plenty of (expensive) upgrades to make them more usable if you > like. I like the SE/30 a lot. I will not part with mine. It was my first apartment server, handling AppleShare for my IIsi and bootblocks to the IIgs, which entirely booted over the network until I got it a hard disk. I really wanted to get the Commodore 128 on LocalTalk but never got around to that. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Angels we have heard on High/Tell us to go out and Buy. -- Tom Lehrer ------ From hachti at hachti.de Tue Nov 24 17:28:53 2009 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 00:28:53 +0100 Subject: Cleaning packs In-Reply-To: <133901ca6d5e$25406110$0301a8c0@Alexandre> References: <133901ca6d5e$25406110$0301a8c0@Alexandre> Message-ID: <4B0C6C35.904@hachti.de> < If you cut a new thread in the plastic (self tapping screws), you >> run the risk of puting little bits of plastic on the disk. > > This is something you should do in everything :) Of course. If you don't take care, you get lose screws.... But... Info from DEC field service (no joke, one of my 8/Ls has been repaired for me by an original DEC field service engineer!!!) is the following: "It's not the "big stuff" that is dangerous for the disk system, it's everything that fits between the head and the disk surface. Normal dust and other stuff is simply kicked away" I use near 100% IPA to clean packs. And kitchen roll. And some force. But I take care not to scratch packs. I got a crashed pack back to life. After loading such a cleaned pack, I always get some "dinging" sounds when I move the heads over the surface for the first time. But then it's ok. I tend to clean the heads after hearing noise. I once had a real crash. Came from foam residue entering the cartridge. What a mess! After cleaning, the drive and pack survived the data reliability test (3.5 hours) without any problems without any single error. DEC's original checkout criteria allowed to have a few soft errors during this. But there was no error at all. I'm still using both. And I sometime run the RK05 a whole day (especially when it's cold outside...). (Talking about RK05, no other experience) Best wishes, Philipp From hachti at hachti.de Tue Nov 24 17:33:00 2009 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 00:33:00 +0100 Subject: Cleaning packs In-Reply-To: <4B0C6A36.40700@nktelco.net> References: <01ba01ca6d38$16209270$0301a8c0@Alexandre> <965FAF64-3116-4F30-BCAE-31B88C6BE8D2@shiresoft.com> <4B0C6A36.40700@nktelco.net> Message-ID: <4B0C6D2C.7070805@hachti.de> Hi, > I imagine the process of cleaning an RK05 drive would be very similar. > Basically remove ALL the dust and then put it back together. Has anyone > experience in cleaning an RK05 drive? I have one that was left open for > several years before the machine was decommissioned. I got a very dirty one. Too dirty to touch...... I "defoamed" it using a vacuum cleaner. Then I cleaned everything I could easily reach using a wet cloth from the kitchen. So the drive still looks not too nice inside. The heads were cleaned with IPA and "kitchen roll". Running nicely.... Take care of foam residues and dirt in the air filter outlet. Keep in mind that almost all dirt and dust that is not on the heads or in the air filter outlet can be ignored.... Pure cosmetics. Philipp From IanK at vulcan.com Tue Nov 24 17:33:05 2009 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 15:33:05 -0800 Subject: YATYD: Ten Year Rule In-Reply-To: <20091124150623.O69234@shell.lmi.net> References: <4B0BD328.5010102@gmail.com> <8A515E02-B7B0-49F8-9538-B0EEAF91E6C7@stillhq.com> <4B0BF298.1010401@gmail.com> <505389.30034.qm@web83905.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <4B0BF740.7000808@gmail.com> <394225.84135.qm@web83902.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <49EEECCB-4EC4-479E-BB06-F2C1BE917C80@neurotica.com> <20091124150623.O69234@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Fred Cisin > Sent: Tuesday, November 24, 2009 3:08 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: YATYD: Ten Year Rule > > On Tue, 24 Nov 2009, Dave McGuire wrote: > > ...which is precisely why this discussion comes up about once a > > year, and always ends unresolved. > > We are unable to objectively clarify what would be interesting. > > We have a specific counter-example: "WINDOZE" > And OS X is vintage? :-p Don't try to take the out that it's based on U*ix - Windows NT started out as VMS/386. It's just like obscenity: I know vintage when I see it, and so do you. There is only a passing chance that the scope perceived by each of us is identical - but similar enough to have a discussion list like this one. -- Ian From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Nov 24 17:39:35 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 15:39:35 -0800 (PST) Subject: Ten Year Rule In-Reply-To: <4B0C1CE0.9070704@snarc.net> References: <4B0BD328.5010102@gmail.com> <8A515E02-B7B0-49F8-9538-B0EEAF91E6C7@stillhq.com> <4B0BF298.1010401@gmail.com> <505389.30034.qm@web83905.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <4B0BF740.7000808@gmail.com> <394225.84135.qm@web83902.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <49EEECCB-4EC4-479E-BB06-F2C1BE917C80@neurotica.com> <4B0C15D3.5020509@snarc.net> <6dbe3c380911240930t4ad577ccnfc5f797b24add734@mail.gmail.com> <4B0C1CE0.9070704@snarc.net> Message-ID: <20091124153625.W69234@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 24 Nov 2009, Evan Koblentz wrote: > > What's the link to VCF? I'm not sure i've heard of that one. > .... And some cctalkers are so stuck in their text-email rut that > they've never heard of Google! ;) I've heard of it. I use it a lot. But, must I have access to it on every machine at home? From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Tue Nov 24 18:51:51 2009 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 21:51:51 -0300 Subject: Ten Year Rule References: <200911242323.nAONNrUA017270@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <13ec01ca6d69$aee9c4f0$0301a8c0@Alexandre> >> Can I read that with PINE on a unix shell account? > If I can't read it in Lynx, it's dead to me. Example: Facebook If I can't read in proper english, it's dead to me. Example: Facebook and all aplications where children write like they never been on school. From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Tue Nov 24 18:08:57 2009 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 18:08:57 -0600 Subject: Ten Year Rule In-Reply-To: <200911242323.nAONNrUA017270@floodgap.com> References: <200911242323.nAONNrUA017270@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <4B0C7599.7000603@gmail.com> Cameron Kaiser wrote: >>> A good point. Is it just me - I have been noticing less list traffic >>> over the years? Are people migrating to VCF? >> Can I read that with PINE on a unix shell account? > > If I can't read it in Lynx, it's dead to me. Example: Facebook Heh :-) Given the reliability and the way that when they fix one thing something else breaks in a new and interesting way, it spends most of its time dead to me even with a modern system/OS/browser... I've never known any piece of code to be quite so bloated and buggy :-( From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Tue Nov 24 18:12:57 2009 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 18:12:57 -0600 Subject: Ten Year Rule In-Reply-To: <4B0C6608.30105@jbrain.com> References: <8A515E02-B7B0-49F8-9538-B0EEAF91E6C7@stillhq.com> <4B0BF298.1010401@gmail.com> <505389.30034.qm@web83905.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <4B0BF740.7000808@gmail.com> <394225.84135.qm@web83902.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <49EEECCB-4EC4-479E-BB06-F2C1BE917C80@neurotica.com> <4B0C15D3.5020509@snarc.net> <4B0C4F24.5010201@brutman.com> <20091124214204.GA8163@Update.UU.SE> <4B0C5811.7000901@brutman.com> <4B0C6608.30105@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <4B0C7689.6090602@gmail.com> Jim Brain wrote: > My word, I leave for work, and look what I come back to! > > "Welcome Jim, you have a bazillion cc-talk messages!" Whatever happened to a metric buttload? And is there a Giga-buttload? > So, since you all have wasted the better part of a day without coming to > a conclusion, here's another coal for the fire: > > When is it appropriate to talk about a system that emulates a vintage > machine, but contains additional functionality beyond the original > emulated artifact? All the time, I think. From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Tue Nov 24 18:14:31 2009 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 18:14:31 -0600 Subject: Ten Year Rule In-Reply-To: <4B0C5091.5000508@hachti.de> References: <4B0BD328.5010102@gmail.com> <8A515E02-B7B0-49F8-9538-B0EEAF91E6C7@stillhq.com> <4B0BF298.1010401@gmail.com> <505389.30034.qm@web83905.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <4B0BF740.7000808@gmail.com> <4B0C5091.5000508@hachti.de> Message-ID: <4B0C76E7.807@gmail.com> Philipp Hachtmann wrote: > > >> Most old machines that people would consider "interesting" >>> on this list I'm sure would use far less than 128MB of system memory >>> for example. > Mega bytes??!? rofl Those things that people with good computers can only dream of having? ;) From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Tue Nov 24 18:17:23 2009 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 18:17:23 -0600 Subject: Ten Year Rule In-Reply-To: <4B0C5015.2090909@hachti.de> References: <4B0BD328.5010102@gmail.com> <8A515E02-B7B0-49F8-9538-B0EEAF91E6C7@stillhq.com> <4B0C5015.2090909@hachti.de> Message-ID: <4B0C7793.2040302@gmail.com> Philipp Hachtmann wrote: > Hi, > >> Personally I work on the basis that 1982 is the cutoff year for >> anything interesting Anything newer is only interesting if it isn't >> powered by Intel or AMD. > My rule of thumb is that I collect stuff that's older than me (I'm from > 1978). Interesting - never tried that with computers (it's generally been my rule with vehicles though, and has served me well). I find a lot of the early 80s stuff too interesting, I suppose (and the stuff that's older than me too expensive since ebay came along) cheers Jules From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Tue Nov 24 18:21:46 2009 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 18:21:46 -0600 Subject: Ten Year Rule In-Reply-To: <4B0BB010.26271.1F6059@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4B0BD328.5010102@gmail.com>, <8A515E02-B7B0-49F8-9538-B0EEAF91E6C7@stillhq.com> <4B0BB010.26271.1F6059@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4B0C789A.6010608@gmail.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 24 Nov 2009 at 23:45, Doug Jackson wrote: > >> Personally I work on the basis that 1982 is the cutoff year for >> anything interesting Anything newer is only interesting if it isn't >> powered by Intel or AMD. > > I'd take that back perhaps another 10 years to 1973. It's a little > boring seeing systems with fixed power-of-two word lengths, 8-bit > characters and predictable instruction sets, all implemented with MOS > transistors. > > Go back to the 1950's and 60's and there were some really interesting > systems. One of the VC Foruum posters picked up a batch of old PC > boards--I noted that he had a card from a Packard Bell 250 in the > collection. An interesting machine, if there ever was one. Yes, we obviously need a 'vintagecomp' list for the older stuff (and maybe a 'veterancomp' for anything that's electro-mechanical :-) I agree that the older stuff is often more interesting architecture-wise (and from a user interaction point of view). Problem is that few listmembers *have* systems from that era, so I suspect that - whilst there'd be some good discussion - there wouldn't be a huge amount of activity... cheers Jules From classiccmp at vintage-computer.com Tue Nov 24 19:59:02 2009 From: classiccmp at vintage-computer.com (Erik Klein) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 17:59:02 -0800 Subject: Ten Year Rule In-Reply-To: References: <4B0BD328.5010102@gmail.com> <8A515E02-B7B0-49F8-9538-B0EEAF91E6C7@stillhq.com> <4B0BF298.1010401@gmail.com> <505389.30034.qm@web83905.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <4B0BF740.7000808@gmail.com> <394225.84135.qm@web83902.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <49EEECCB-4EC4-479E-BB06-F2C1BE917C80@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <07c201ca6d72$de144490$9a3ccdb0$@com> On Tuesday, November 24, 2009 8:11 AM Dave McGuire Wrote: ...can VCF be presented as email, or is it only usable in annoying "web forum" format? Sorry, Dave, but it's web-only at the moment. I might consider a hack to do email someday but every hybrid I've ever seen simply sucks. ----- Erik Klein www.vintage-computer.com www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum - The Vintage Computer Forums marketplace.vintage-computer.com - The Vintage Computer and Gaming Marketplace From ggs at shiresoft.com Tue Nov 24 19:58:57 2009 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 17:58:57 -0800 Subject: Cleaning packs In-Reply-To: <026f01ca6d40$73570de0$0301a8c0@Alexandre> References: <01ba01ca6d38$16209270$0301a8c0@Alexandre> <965FAF64-3116-4F30-BCAE-31B88C6BE8D2@shiresoft.com> <026f01ca6d40$73570de0$0301a8c0@Alexandre> Message-ID: On Nov 24, 2009, at 11:55 AM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >> 4. clean platter with alcohol and lint free cloths. This also >> provides the opportunity to inspect the surfaces. I toss any >> platter that shows any abnormalities (cleaning up after a head >> crash is too time consuming to waste on a marginal pack) > > Thanks for the info, Guy! Very interesting information! :o) But > isn't there any kind of lubrification on the surfaces of these packs? Why would there be? The heads *never* touch the surface (if they do that's a head crash). It's not like modern non-pack drives. The heads are retracted back so they are completely clear of the surface (s). Otherwise how would you remove the pack? TTFN - Guy From ggs at shiresoft.com Tue Nov 24 20:04:20 2009 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 18:04:20 -0800 Subject: Cleaning packs In-Reply-To: <955042.57792.qm@web83906.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <01ba01ca6d38$16209270$0301a8c0@Alexandre> <965FAF64-3116-4F30-BCAE-31B88C6BE8D2@shiresoft.com> <624966d60911241253n264b7dc5kfc0e5cbf1e1aeb6@mail.gmail.com> <955042.57792.qm@web83906.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Nov 24, 2009, at 1:08 PM, geoffrey oltmans wrote: > Dumb question (perhaps), but do the relative positions of the disk > platters in the pack matter on these systems? I suppose it might for > interleaving purposes for data already recorded. I would suspect yes but never having cleaned multi-platter packs, I'd only do that on packs that I don't care about the data (ie I'm going to format the pack as soon as it's "clean"). If I care about the data that *might* be on them I probably wouldn't disassemble (ie de-stack) the pack. TTFN - Guy > > > > > ________________________________ > From: Paul Anderson > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Sent: Tue, November 24, 2009 2:53:27 PM > Subject: Re: Cleaning packs > > That's pretty much the method I use, mostly on RK05 packs. I think I > still > have 2 alignment packs, which I should clean before using. I had a > homemade > RK05 exercisor which also did alignments, but I loaned it to > someone on the > list to use, reverse engineer, and make available to the list about > 2 years > ago. Haven't heard from him since. I have 1 or 2 new linear > positioners, and > maybe a few used ones here somewhere > > Paul > > On Tue, Nov 24, 2009 at 12:29 PM, Guy Sotomayor > wrote: > >> >> On Nov 24, 2009, at 10:58 AM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >> >> One thing that I fear is that the knowledge to *properly* clean a >> pack >>>> is going away. There is (was?) a place near Boston that would do >>>> it, >>>> and I am sure Farris can as well, but I know of no others. >>>> It would be nice to document how packs are cleaned, so we can do >>>> this >>>> in the future. >>>> >>> >>> I was going to ask the same, how do you clean a pack? >>> >> >> Generally what I do is the following (note that I've only cleaned >> RK05 and >> RL packs): >> 1. blow out any dust/grime with compressed air >> 2. do an initial cleaning of the outside of the pack with alcohol >> and lint >> free cloths >> 3. disassemble the pack >> 4. clean platter with alcohol and lint free cloths. This also >> provides the >> opportunity to inspect the surfaces. I toss any platter that shows >> any >> abnormalities (cleaning up after a head crash is too time consuming >> to waste >> on a marginal pack) >> 5. clean the remainder of the pack with alcohol and lint free cloths. >> 6. use lots of compressed air >> 7. reassemble the pack >> >> It takes me 1/2 hour to 1 hour to clean a pack. I do this in a >> bright well >> lit and well ventilated space. I haven't had a single head crash >> since I >> started doing this. I've probably done a few dozen packs this way. >> However, I have ~300 pack backlog. :-( >> >> TTFN - Guy >> > From jzg22 at drexel.edu Tue Nov 24 20:04:43 2009 From: jzg22 at drexel.edu (Jonathan Gevaryahu) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 21:04:43 -0500 Subject: DEC VT100 character generator Message-ID: <4B0C90BB.7050508@drexel.edu> ------------------------------ Message: 20 Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 22:50:31 +0000 From: Pete Turnbull Subject: DEC VT100 character generator To: ClassicCmp Message-ID: <4B0B11B7.4020304 at dunnington.plus.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Several months ago, someone was looking for an image of the 23-018E2 character generator ROM for a VT100. A generous reader has given me an image, which I've uploaded to my website at http://www.dunnington.u-net.com/public/DECROMs/ Better late than never, I hope! -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York ------------------------------ Pete, That matches the rom I typed from the vt100 tech manual datasheet for MESS. Are you sure someone dumped it from a real chip and didn't just submit the rom I typed up (which is now floating around the 'net)? The rom is marked as a 'bad dump' in MESS, because I was almost sure the typed one is very slightly wrong due to the fact that the sum16 of the one I typed does not end with "00", which seems to have been standard DEC practice for roms at the time. Hence I was hoping someone with a working or scrap vt1xx series board would dump the real thing. The trouble with most people dumping the original chip seems to be that: A. it is soldered to the vt1xx board B. it has uninverted CE (I think...) and a few other pinout oddities (see schematic on bitsavers) P.S. the second optional character rom (only selectable if you have an AVO board installed, or a VT102/VT131 which has AVO builtin), labeled 23-094e2 is also not dumped. This one, fortunately, is socketed on systems which have it, and I believe has a normal pinout. I think it contains european characters and formatting/word processing characters. It might also contain some or all of the technical font used on the later vt3xx+ systems as shown here: http://vt100.net/charsets/technical.html P.P.S. the main cpu roms from a vt1xx with the word processing romset installed are also not dumped. I have no idea what the numbering on these is though. Two of the CE pins alternate in binary form for the chips to allow them to be 'self decoding' and inserted in the four sockets in any order! cute, but makes dumping them a bit harder. -- Jonathan Gevaryahu jgevaryahu(@t)hotmail(d0t)com jzg22(@t)drexel(d0t)edu From ggs at shiresoft.com Tue Nov 24 20:14:53 2009 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 18:14:53 -0800 Subject: Cleaning packs In-Reply-To: <4B0C6A36.40700@nktelco.net> References: <01ba01ca6d38$16209270$0301a8c0@Alexandre> <965FAF64-3116-4F30-BCAE-31B88C6BE8D2@shiresoft.com> <4B0C6A36.40700@nktelco.net> Message-ID: <97D887F2-00F7-491C-B05A-6F20C190662A@shiresoft.com> On Nov 24, 2009, at 3:20 PM, Charles H Dickman wrote: > Guy Sotomayor wrote: >> >> Generally what I do is the following (note that I've only cleaned >> RK05 and RL packs): >> 1. blow out any dust/grime with compressed air >> 2. do an initial cleaning of the outside of the pack with alcohol >> and lint free cloths >> 3. disassemble the pack >> 4. clean platter with alcohol and lint free cloths. This also >> provides the opportunity to inspect the surfaces. I toss any >> platter that shows any abnormalities (cleaning up after a head >> crash is too time consuming to waste on a marginal pack) >> 5. clean the remainder of the pack with alcohol and lint free cloths. >> 6. use lots of compressed air >> 7. reassemble the pack >> >> It takes me 1/2 hour to 1 hour to clean a pack. I do this in a >> bright well lit and well ventilated space. I haven't had a single >> head crash since I started doing this. I've probably done a few >> dozen packs this way. However, I have ~300 pack backlog. :-( >> >> TTFN - Guy > Seems straightforward enough. What is the source of compressed air > and what kind of lint free cloth do you use? Does vacuum have any use? Compressed air = air compressor with pressure regulator with filter and water & oil trap (ie not a "hobby" air compressor). I have a few. The "big" one is for running air tools (ie working on cars and such). My smaller one I usually have the regulator set at 20psi and I use a "blow gun" attachment. I purchase disposable lint free cloths. > > I imagine the process of cleaning an RK05 drive would be very > similar. Basically remove ALL the dust and then put it back > together. Has anyone experience in cleaning an RK05 drive? I have > one that was left open for several years before the machine was > decommissioned. That's it basically except for dealing with the "DEC foam" which I always replace (unless it's obvious that it was recently done). TTFN - Guy From dm561 at torfree.net Tue Nov 24 21:08:46 2009 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 22:08:46 -0500 Subject: Ten Year Rule Message-ID: <01CA6D52.C76C7480@MSE_D03> Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 16:02:57 -0600 From: "Michael B. Brutman" Subject: Re: Ten Year Rule Pontus Pihlgren wrote: >> Well, without the newbs the community will slowly die away. I like to >> see young people getting interested in what I'm interested in. Let them >> talk about their "vintage" Pentium and hope they discover the cool stuff >> in the "Minis and Mainframes" section. >> I'm in both and I also visit http://forums.nekochan.net/ for my daily >> dose of SGI. >> >> Kind regards, >> Pontus. >Hi Pontus, >We need the newbs, and we need to be gentle to them. But newbs can get >annoying when they just babble endlessly and refuse to do basic >research. The good news is that we can try to moderate or filter a lot >of that out. >Regards, >Mike --------------------- ...and moderators can be annoying when they're patronizing and condescending and think that people who think P1s are antiques are a "problem" on a forum like Erik's which is mostly about exactly that, folks helping each other restoring and modifying their old Intel boxes (but also more esoteric stuff, in case I'm giving the wrong impression). Meanwhile, here we can spend a week discussing and reading about arcane camera stuff, but woe to anyone who might mention Windows 3.1... And now of course we have to have the tedious "what is vintage" discussion yet once again... has this been a problem? Have we been overwhelmed with Vista questions? Did someone use the word 'anal'...? m From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Nov 24 21:16:38 2009 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 19:16:38 -0800 Subject: DEC VT100 character generator In-Reply-To: <4B0C90BB.7050508@drexel.edu> References: <4B0C90BB.7050508@drexel.edu> Message-ID: <4B0CA196.6080801@brouhaha.com> A character generator ROM is unlikely to have a fixed value checksum, because there usually isn't a "spare" location in a character generator ROM in which to stuff a contant to make the checksum come out to the desired value. Eric From vrs at msn.com Tue Nov 24 21:49:42 2009 From: vrs at msn.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 19:49:42 -0800 Subject: Vintage Computer Forum (was Re: Ten Year Rule) References: <4B0BD328.5010102@gmail.com> <8A515E02-B7B0-49F8-9538-B0EEAF91E6C7@stillhq.com> <4B0BF298.1010401@gmail.com> <505389.30034.qm@web83905.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <4B0BF740.7000808@gmail.com> <394225.84135.qm@web83902.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <49EEECCB-4EC4-479E-BB06-F2C1BE917C80@neurotica.com> <07c201ca6d72$de144490$9a3ccdb0$@com> Message-ID: From: "Erik Klein" Sent: Tuesday, November 24, 2009 5:59 PM > On Tuesday, November 24, 2009 8:11 AM Dave McGuire Wrote: >> ...can VCF be presented as email, or is it only usable in annoying >> "web forum" format? > > Sorry, Dave, but it's web-only at the moment. > > I might consider a hack to do email someday but every hybrid I've > ever seen simply sucks. What about enabling RSS? I couldn't find that currently enabled anywhere. Vince From teoz at neo.rr.com Tue Nov 24 22:08:38 2009 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 23:08:38 -0500 Subject: Ten Year Rule References: <01CA6D52.C76C7480@MSE_D03> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "M H Stein" To: Sent: Tuesday, November 24, 2009 10:08 PM Subject: Re: Ten Year Rule > Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 16:02:57 -0600 > From: "Michael B. Brutman" > Subject: Re: Ten Year Rule > ...and moderators can be annoying when they're patronizing and > condescending > and think that people who think P1s are antiques are a "problem" on a > forum like > Erik's which is mostly about exactly that, folks helping each other > restoring and > modifying their old Intel boxes (but also more esoteric stuff, in case I'm > giving the > wrong impression). > > Meanwhile, here we can spend a week discussing and reading about arcane > camera stuff, but woe to anyone who might mention Windows 3.1... > > And now of course we have to have the tedious "what is vintage" discussion > yet > once again... has this been a problem? Have we been overwhelmed with Vista > questions? > > Did someone use the word 'anal'...? > > m I bet somebody wanted to start a thread and was unsure if the powers that be will complain about the subject so the ten year rule thread came about again. Last time around I think Win 3.1 was legit to talk about, or at least something of that vintage. Honestly I tend to talk about that OS and relevant hardware in forums where other people appreciate it, but I bet plenty of people here have vast knowledge (but probably no love for it) because they had to use it for work. Everybody has that bit of hardware that was marveled at when they were young and could not afford to buy, house, and power it. So when people get older and technology gets obsolete they indulge in buying that old stuff to play with. Few "kids" today have a clue what a mainframe is or why they would even want one because they have zero history or knowledge of the stuff (outside of a 60's B&W film on TBS at 2AM with a rack of real to real tape drives spinning in the background). While younger people might like newer systems then what some people here care about, everyone has the same problem of how to get their systems running, keeping them running, finding software, replacement parts, troubleshooting tips, backup storage etc. So there is something in common between the generations that can be passed on in the hobby. Remember that these kids are the ones who will keep any knowledge that you generate alive for other generations to know about, in return you need to encourage them to get into the hobby and to appreciate the stuff you care about while helping them with stuff they care about. A hard cutoff in topics on this list will just serve to kill the list slowly (look how many posts we had in the last day from people who rarely contribute) and with that flush all the archiving done to date when the next generation doesn't feel like paying for storage (real and online) for some old fogies junk and recycles it all. The relationship should be like an old expert wood craftsman showing the younger generation what quality is like working with hand tools and real hardwood while the younger generation shows the older one what they can do with power tools, CNC machines and composite materials. From geoffr at zipcon.net Tue Nov 24 23:51:56 2009 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoffrey Reed) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 21:51:56 -0800 Subject: Ten Year Rule In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Somewhat related to the 10 year rule :) fixing systems, aligning drives and building NOS z-80, etc. I would like reccomendations for inexpensive-ish oscilloscopes :) What sort of bandwidth does one need, are there any materials out there for someone who has never used one before beyond hooking up 8" drive test points from a Tandon manual and adjusting the head alignment. From brain at jbrain.com Wed Nov 25 00:18:15 2009 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 00:18:15 -0600 Subject: Ten Year Rule In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B0CCC27.4050402@jbrain.com> Geoffrey Reed wrote: > Somewhat related to the 10 year rule :) fixing systems, aligning drives and > building NOS z-80, etc. > > I would like reccomendations for inexpensive-ish oscilloscopes :) > > What sort of bandwidth does one need, are there any materials out there for > someone who has never used one before beyond hooking up 8" drive test points > from a Tandon manual and adjusting the head alignment. > > I have a Tek 2465 I got a few years back off eBay. It's a 300MHz 4 channel scope, and it's been a great help for debugging. 300MHz is a bit high, but I think I only paid $300 or so for it, which I thought was a great deal. Here's a 2465A for about the same price: 160380373748 Here's my model: 160380657710, and 280394276739 I've considered one of those USB digital scopes, as there are times when I am at a show and someone needs a scope, but I'm still leery of them. Anyone have one and can speak to them? 2 channels is a must, and I think 20-50MHz is probably good (I run mine in 20MHz Bandwidth limit mode all the time). If you are going to debug digital, though, I recommend a logic analyzer. I picked up a 48 channel Tek 1225 for $50.00 or so a few years back, and it's been extremely helpful. Jim -- Jim Brain, Brain Innovations (X) brain at jbrain.com Dabbling in WWW, Embedded Systems, Old CBM computers, and Good Times! Home: http://www.jbrain.com From brain at jbrain.com Wed Nov 25 00:33:00 2009 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 00:33:00 -0600 Subject: Odds and Ends questions Message-ID: <4B0CCF9C.7070904@jbrain.com> 1. I have a need for a DE9 female connector without the metal housing, something like (http://www.robotshop.ca/Images/small/en/parallax-basic-stamp-1-serial-adapter-T.jpg). I need quite a few of them, so I'd rather not buy DE-9s and rip off the shielded housing manually. Anyone have ideas? 2. Anyone on list have any experience with MAX 7032A Altera CPLDs? I'm working on a VIC-20 MIDI interface for a friend in Toronto, and I'd love to use a small CPLD to make it more cost effective to produce the MIDI cart. I've found TQFP 7032A units for $.31/piece, but I've never done CPLD. I want to learn, and thought if I at least knew someone could help me though the first few bits (and help with the programming cable, etc., it'd be much easier. 3. I'm making the journey to Toronto for the World of Commodore 2009 show Dec 5. I'd love to meet list members in the area, and there'll be some vintage CBM stuff present, if you're into that sort of machine. 4. Anyone have a source for 28AWG 2 conductor twisted wire? 5. If so, do they make it in 3 conductor? Those who care about the CBM machines on-list have no doubt heard all of this, and I don't want to be accused of spamming, but I thought I'd point out I ran a batch of MOS 6540 adapter PCBs, and I have created a small FLASH replacement for the 2364 and 23128/23256 DIP ROMs. Some of those might be of use on other 80's era machines. Jim -- Jim Brain, Brain Innovations (X) brain at jbrain.com Dabbling in WWW, Embedded Systems, Old CBM computers, and Good Times! Home: http://www.jbrain.com From cclist at sydex.com Wed Nov 25 00:52:49 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 22:52:49 -0800 Subject: Odds and Ends questions In-Reply-To: <4B0CCF9C.7070904@jbrain.com> References: <4B0CCF9C.7070904@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <4B0C63C1.16551.41A1E1@cclist.sydex.com> On 25 Nov 2009 at 0:33, Jim Brain wrote: > 2. Anyone on list have any experience with MAX 7032A Altera CPLDs? > I'm working on a VIC-20 MIDI interface for a friend in Toronto, > and I'd love to use a small CPLD to make it more cost effective > to produce the MIDI cart. I've found TQFP 7032A units for > $.31/piece, but I've never done CPLD. I want to learn, and > thought if I at least knew someone could help me though the > first few bits (and help with the programming cable, etc., it'd > be much easier. I've done some Max 7000S CPLDs. The ByteBlaster programmer is easy to build and the Quartus development software is available free on line. I believe it includes some examples. After fooling with the awkward Altera tools, I found that I like the Xilinx XC9500 toolset better. > 4. Anyone have a source for 28AWG 2 conductor twisted wire? > 5. If so, do they make it in 3 conductor? Solid, or stranded? Tinned or bare copper? --Chuck From brain at jbrain.com Wed Nov 25 01:09:48 2009 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 01:09:48 -0600 Subject: Odds and Ends questions In-Reply-To: <4B0C63C1.16551.41A1E1@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4B0CCF9C.7070904@jbrain.com> <4B0C63C1.16551.41A1E1@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4B0CD83C.2090400@jbrain.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 25 Nov 2009 at 0:33, Jim Brain wrote: > > >> 2. Anyone on list have any experience with MAX 7032A Altera CPLDs? >> I'm working on a VIC-20 MIDI interface for a friend in Toronto, >> and I'd love to use a small CPLD to make it more cost effective >> to produce the MIDI cart. I've found TQFP 7032A units for >> $.31/piece, but I've never done CPLD. I want to learn, and >> thought if I at least knew someone could help me though the >> first few bits (and help with the programming cable, etc., it'd >> be much easier. >> > > I've done some Max 7000S CPLDs. The ByteBlaster programmer is easy > to build and the Quartus development software is available free on > line. I believe it includes some examples. > > Can one use the ByteBlaster for Xilinx parts as well, or do I have to buy two tools (I rather like the Xilinx part options better myself, but the deal is on Altera stock.) > Solid, or stranded? Tinned or bare copper? > stranded, either tinner or bare is fine. Teflon coating would be ideal for the usage, but I hesitate on it because I can't seem to figure out how to strip such wire. > --Chuck > -- Jim Brain, Brain Innovations (X) brain at jbrain.com Dabbling in WWW, Embedded Systems, Old CBM computers, and Good Times! Home: http://www.jbrain.com From pete at dunnington.plus.com Wed Nov 25 02:17:58 2009 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 08:17:58 +0000 Subject: DEC VT100 character generator In-Reply-To: <4B0C90BB.7050508@drexel.edu> References: <4B0C90BB.7050508@drexel.edu> Message-ID: <4B0CE836.2010703@dunnington.plus.com> On 25/11/2009 02:04, Jonathan Gevaryahu wrote: [ stuff which was below a signature line so it didn't come out ] The ROM image came from from someone I've got data from before, who fixes things, and says he dumped it from one he desoldered from a working VT. I have no reason to doubt him. The idea that DEC made a practice of arranging the checksum to come to zero or end "00" is news to me. I'm fairly sure that's not the case. There must be many exceptions, if only because there's often not a spare location to store the necessary constant to adjust the checksum. Having worked with DEC stuff when it was current, even though it was a long time ago, I'm quite familiar with the ROMS, including in particular Q-Bus devices and VT1xx devices, because I used to repair them, to component level, for a living. In fact that's why I started collecting the images. Using different polarity chip selects on masked ROMs is common practice. Many manufacturers did that, and it's not hard to get round. If your programmer can't deal with it, just bend the pin carefully and use a test lead to tie it high or low. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From rodsmallwood at btconnect.com Wed Nov 25 02:38:54 2009 From: rodsmallwood at btconnect.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 08:38:54 -0000 Subject: Ten Year Rule In-Reply-To: References: <4B0BD328.5010102@gmail.com> from "Kirn Gill" at Nov 24, 9 07:35:52 am Message-ID: Well here's something that the last time it was made was around 1993. It's about as classic as you can get. I had an idea to get my old Rainbow based FidoBBs (circa 1986) running again by hooking it up to the net via DECServer200/MC and reverse Telneting into it. I looked round for a copy of FIDO_DEC, found one but NUSQ would not unsqeeze it. Finally I found my way to Tom Jennings (The guy who wrote Fido) website. Total shock and horror!! All of the sources and backups had been trashed in a computer crash around 1993. So most of what he had done from 1983 to 1993 was a heap of smoldering ruins. The sources (or what's left of them) are freely available on his web site. Rebuilding hardware is one thing but software, well that's another! Regards Rod Smallwood -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tony Duell Sent: 24 November 2009 20:45 To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Ten Year Rule > > I was thinking recently, and I know that the general threshold for > discussion on this list is ten years, but is that enough? > > As it stands, given the rule of a minimum of ten years, most early > Pentium III PeeCees are listworthy for discussion. I have a similar problem looking on E-bay. Eay (at least the UK one) has a category of #vintage computing'. I really have diffuclty classing 72 pin SIMMs and Pentium motherboards as 'vintage'... I would really hate it if this list became a mostly old PC (or Mac) list. IMHO there are better places to discuss such machines (no, I don't know hwere said places are). Another random thought... Some years ago I was a memer of a computer clu which has a 'hardware and old systems SIG'. THose two interests were grouped togther not just because there was one member who hacked hardware and also ran old systems (I wonder who that was ;-)), but also because it was successfully argued that if you wanted to run an old system you pretty much has to know enough about hardware to fix it yourself, and conversely an old system (even then) was something that you _could_ fix properly (you know, with a soldering iron and 'scope...) Perhaps the criterion for classicness should be that the machine is treated at a much lower level than 'The DVD-ROM goes in here and then you click here' sort of thing. > I have a Dell OptiPlex GX110 that could be discussed here; the machine > is twelve years old, and if I am not mistaken, twelve is greater than > ten. (For those of you that live in alternate realities in which twelve > is *not* greater than ten, please disregard this whole email.) I also 12 (octal) = 10 (decimal) (Sorry couldn't resist, I spand far too much time working in octal, and no I am not missing 2 fingers) -tony From jzg22 at drexel.edu Wed Nov 25 04:50:25 2009 From: jzg22 at drexel.edu (Jonathan Gevaryahu) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 05:50:25 -0500 Subject: DEC VT100 character generator In-Reply-To: <4B0C90BB.7050508@drexel.edu> References: <4B0C90BB.7050508@drexel.edu> Message-ID: <4B0D0BF1.9020800@drexel.edu> On 25/11/2009 02:04, Jonathan Gevaryahu wrote: [ stuff which was below a signature line so it didn't come out ] The ROM image came from from someone I've got data from before, who fixes things, and says he dumped it from one he desoldered from a working VT. I have no reason to doubt him. The idea that DEC made a practice of arranging the checksum to come to zero or end "00" is news to me. I'm fairly sure that's not the case. There must be many exceptions, if only because there's often not a spare location to store the necessary constant to adjust the checksum. Having worked with DEC stuff when it was current, even though it was a long time ago, I'm quite familiar with the ROMS, including in particular Q-Bus devices and VT1xx devices, because I used to repair them, to component level, for a living. In fact that's why I started collecting the images. Using different polarity chip selects on masked ROMs is common practice. Many manufacturers did that, and it's not hard to get round. If your programmer can't deal with it, just bend the pin carefully and use a test lead to tie it high or low. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York Pete: Apologies for doubting you then, I'm just surprised the rom matches. There actually IS spare space in the character generator rom for the vt100 since bytes xxF xx0 xx1 xx2 xx3 xx4 xx5 xx6 xx7 xx8 are used for rows 0 thru 9 of a given character xx(yes byte xxF comes first, I don't know why DEC did that but it says so in the vt100 tech manual), but bytes xx9 xxA xxB xxC xxD xxE are unused and can have any data stuffed into them. I'll mark the rom as good in MESS; who dumped that rom by the way? I want to give proper credit (unless they wish to remain anonymous). -- Jonathan Gevaryahu jgevaryahu(@t)hotmail(d0t)com jzg22(@t)drexel(d0t)edu From PeksaDO at cardiff.ac.uk Wed Nov 25 06:13:57 2009 From: PeksaDO at cardiff.ac.uk (Doug Peksa) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 12:13:57 +0000 Subject: isa 486 computer-on-a-board type things In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I have a HM (Hotel Microsystems) Server with an eight slot backplane and can choose from a selection of '386' and '486' computer-on-a-board cards that I have. I also have one 'IBM Blue Lighting' card. Six of the other slots are filled with Sundance ISA transputer cards (5 are 20MHz, 8Mb, 1 is 20MHz, 4Mb - I'm still half-looking (not in any real hurry) for 32 1Mbit memory chips to fully populate the final card). In their day, they were the system of choice at Cardiff University for a few years, and they came as a very small desktop with a three (or was it four?) slot backplane, or as the server. The server I have was the 'demonstration' model sent for evaluation. The side panels are perspex. It looks really nice with all those full length transputer cards in there, blinking away. Doug. From joachim.thiemann at gmail.com Wed Nov 25 07:14:43 2009 From: joachim.thiemann at gmail.com (Joachim Thiemann) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 08:14:43 -0500 Subject: Odds and Ends questions In-Reply-To: <4B0CCF9C.7070904@jbrain.com> References: <4B0CCF9C.7070904@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <4affc5e0911250514o66707805r971549dfd4e73771@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Nov 25, 2009 at 01:33, Jim Brain wrote: > ?2. Anyone on list have any experience with MAX 7032A Altera CPLDs? ? ? I'm > working on a VIC-20 MIDI interface for a friend in Toronto, > ? ? and I'd love to use a small CPLD to make it more cost effective to > ? ? produce the MIDI cart. ?I've found TQFP 7032A units for > ? ? $.31/piece, but I've never done CPLD. ?I want to learn, and > ? ? thought if I at least knew someone could help me though the first > ? ? few bits (and help with the programming cable, etc., it'd be much > ? ? easier. I'm currently teaching myself VHDL using the free Xilinx tools ("ISE Webpac" or something), using a Spartan3E board and parallel JTAG cable that was given away at an academic trade show. I think the parallel JTAG cable can be rebuilt very cheaply; it's just a few level shifters. Xilinx has a schematic in the JTAG programmer guide. Universities can be good sources of older FPGA/CPLD development tools too; about 2 or 3 years ago, McGill (where I am) tossed out nice Altera boards, and I'm still kicking myself for not grabbing one. I'm planning to use the Xilinx chips with my old Commodore stuff too, and one of the problems is the use of 3.3V rather than 5V logic. The official recommendation from Xilinx for their Spartan devices is to use simple resistor for connecting 5V out to 3.3V in, and just connect straight-through for 3.3V out to 5V in. I have no idea how I'd handle a bidirectional port though; is a resistor good enough or is a level shifter needed? Or I could try to find programmable 5V parts instead... What have you been doing on your replacement ROM parts? (though I guess on a rom all pins are strictly unidirectional :-) -- Joachim Thiemann :: http://www.tsp.ece.mcgill.ca/~jthiem From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Wed Nov 25 08:00:44 2009 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 08:00:44 -0600 Subject: Ten Year Rule In-Reply-To: References: <01CA6D52.C76C7480@MSE_D03> Message-ID: <4B0D388C.7070303@gmail.com> Teo Zenios wrote: > Few "kids" today have a clue what a mainframe is or > why they would even want one because they have zero history or knowledge > of the stuff (outside of a 60's B&W film on TBS at 2AM with a rack of > real to real tape drives spinning in the background). And don't forget the rack of imaginary tape drives, so that the systems could handle complex numbers... (sorry, couldn't resist ;) From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Nov 25 08:57:00 2009 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 06:57:00 -0800 (PST) Subject: Odds and Ends questions In-Reply-To: <4B0CCF9C.7070904@jbrain.com> References: <4B0CCF9C.7070904@jbrain.com> Message-ID: > I ran a batch of MOS 6540 adapter PCBs, and I have created a small FLASH > replacement for the 2364 and 23128/23256 DIP ROMs. Some of those might be of > use on other 80's era machines. > I think that those would be quite valuable, especially if you decide to create variants that allow a similar drop-in replacement for older EPROM parts. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Nov 25 08:58:29 2009 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 06:58:29 -0800 (PST) Subject: Odds and Ends questions In-Reply-To: <4B0CD83C.2090400@jbrain.com> References: <4B0CCF9C.7070904@jbrain.com> <4B0C63C1.16551.41A1E1@cclist.sydex.com> <4B0CD83C.2090400@jbrain.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 25 Nov 2009, Jim Brain wrote: > stranded, either tinner or bare is fine. Teflon coating would be ideal for > the usage, but I hesitate on it because I can't seem to figure out how to > strip such wire. Aren't thermal strippers used for Teflon wire? g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Wed Nov 25 09:02:48 2009 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 09:02:48 -0600 Subject: Ten Year Rule In-Reply-To: <01CA6D52.C76C7480@MSE_D03> References: <01CA6D52.C76C7480@MSE_D03> Message-ID: <4B0D4718.9090105@brutman.com> M H Stein wrote: > ...and moderators can be annoying when they're patronizing and condescending > and think that people who think P1s are antiques are a "problem" on a forum like > Erik's which is mostly about exactly that, folks helping each other restoring and > modifying their old Intel boxes (but also more esoteric stuff, in case I'm giving the > wrong impression). > > Meanwhile, here we can spend a week discussing and reading about arcane > camera stuff, but woe to anyone who might mention Windows 3.1... > > And now of course we have to have the tedious "what is vintage" discussion yet > once again... has this been a problem? Have we been overwhelmed with Vista > questions? > > Did someone use the word 'anal'...? > > m As one of the moderators there, I'm going to disagree with you. It is a 'vintage' computer forum. Something that can run a current version of Linux would probably be off topic. The difference is that we shuffle it to an off-topic area instead of just ranting about what is on-topic or off topic for days on end. Mike From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Nov 25 09:17:36 2009 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 07:17:36 -0800 (PST) Subject: Ten Year Rule In-Reply-To: References: <4B0BD328.5010102@gmail.com> from "Kirn Gill" at Nov 24, 9 07:35:52 am Message-ID: On Wed, 25 Nov 2009, Rod Smallwood wrote: > > Well here's something that the last time it was made was around 1993. > It's about as classic as you can get. I had an idea to get my old Rainbow > based FidoBBs (circa 1986) running again by hooking it up to the net via > DECServer200/MC and reverse Telneting into it. > > I looked round for a copy of FIDO_DEC, found one but NUSQ would not unsqeeze > it. Finally I found my way to Tom Jennings (The guy who wrote Fido) website. > > Total shock and horror!! All of the sources and backups had been trashed in > a computer crash around 1993. So most of what he had done from 1983 to 1993 > was a heap of smoldering ruins. > Yeah, that was a horrifying discovery for me too. :( You may be able to still use one of the later Fido releases on your Rainbow via FOSSIL driver. Opus might also work via FOSSIL. You can use tcpser to handle the inbound/outbound interface. I use that program for the interface to the Apple IIe board I run. The IIe thinks there's a Hayes Smartmodem on the other end. I don't know if Jim has had time to integrate my WILLDO ECHO patch to tcpser though. (without it, the telnet client does it's own echoing which rreessuullttss iinn tthhiiss....)) .... I just did a bit of digging and yes, you can run Opus on the Rainbow. The following link has both Opus and the FOSSIL driver for the Rainbow (ODEC_301.LZH): http://www.sentry.org/~trev/opus/173files.html If you head over to http://cd.textfiles.com/kirkscom9409/msdos/bbs/fido/ you can download Fido v12U configured for FOSSIL use. (F12U_FSL.ZIP) If you need any help, just holler. :) Telnet to aor.retroarchive.org if you're feeling _really_ nostalgic. *laughs* g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Nov 25 10:16:12 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 11:16:12 -0500 Subject: Ten Year Rule In-Reply-To: References: <4B0BD328.5010102@gmail.com> from "Kirn Gill" at Nov 24, 9 07:35:52 am Message-ID: <9F57CA20-A06B-4127-B85F-6A1382DC8642@neurotica.com> On Nov 25, 2009, at 3:38 AM, Rod Smallwood wrote: > Well here's something that the last time it was made was around 1993. > It's about as classic as you can get. I had an idea to get my old > Rainbow > based FidoBBs (circa 1986) running again by hooking it up to the > net via > DECServer200/MC and reverse Telneting into it. > > I looked round for a copy of FIDO_DEC, found one but NUSQ would not > unsqeeze > it. Finally I found my way to Tom Jennings (The guy who wrote Fido) > website. > > Total shock and horror!! All of the sources and backups had been > trashed in > a computer crash around 1993. So most of what he had done from 1983 > to 1993 > was a heap of smoldering ruins. > > The sources (or what's left of them) are freely available on his > web site. > Rebuilding hardware is one thing but software, well that's another! Oh no, how much of it was lost? Is enough left to reconstruct it? Fido was a "really big deal" back in those days, and a highly innovative system. It'd really suck if it were lost. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Nov 25 10:24:32 2009 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 08:24:32 -0800 (PST) Subject: Ten Year Rule In-Reply-To: <9F57CA20-A06B-4127-B85F-6A1382DC8642@neurotica.com> References: <4B0BD328.5010102@gmail.com> from "Kirn Gill" at Nov 24, 9 07:35:52 am <9F57CA20-A06B-4127-B85F-6A1382DC8642@neurotica.com> Message-ID: >> The sources (or what's left of them) are freely available on his web site. >> Rebuilding hardware is one thing but software, well that's another! > > Oh no, how much of it was lost? Is enough left to reconstruct it? Fido was > a "really big deal" back in those days, and a highly innovative system. It'd > really suck if it were lost. > Tom is the authority on this, but from what I've seen, it should be possible. The sources are here: http://wps.com/FidoNet/source/Fido-FidoNet/ g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From classiccmp at vintage-computer.com Wed Nov 25 10:34:43 2009 From: classiccmp at vintage-computer.com (Erik Klein) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 08:34:43 -0800 Subject: Vintage Computer Forum (was Re: Ten Year Rule) In-Reply-To: References: <4B0BD328.5010102@gmail.com> <8A515E02-B7B0-49F8-9538-B0EEAF91E6C7@stillhq.com> <4B0BF298.1010401@gmail.com> <505389.30034.qm@web83905.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <4B0BF740.7000808@gmail.com> <394225.84135.qm@web83902.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <49EEECCB-4EC4-479E-BB06-F2C1BE917C80@neurotica.com> <07c201ca6d72$de144490$9a3ccdb0$@com> Message-ID: <081b01ca6ded$333bbc30$99b33490$@com> On Tuesday, November 24, 2009 7:50 PM Vincent Slyngstad wrote: > What about enabling RSS? I couldn't find that currently enabled anywhere. Your wish is my command: http://www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum/external.php Talk about an RTFM moment! I didn't even know I could do RSS with the forums. What a turkey. . . and what a bad day to be a turkey! ;) ----- Erik Klein www.vintage-computer.com www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum - The Vintage Computer Forums marketplace.vintage-computer.com - The Vintage Computer and Gaming Marketplace From brain at jbrain.com Wed Nov 25 10:40:38 2009 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 10:40:38 -0600 Subject: Odds and Ends questions In-Reply-To: References: <4B0CCF9C.7070904@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <4B0D5E06.1000500@jbrain.com> Gene Buckle wrote: >> I ran a batch of MOS 6540 adapter PCBs, and I have created a small >> FLASH replacement for the 2364 and 23128/23256 DIP ROMs. Some of >> those might be of use on other 80's era machines. >> > I think that those would be quite valuable, especially if you decide > to create variants that allow a similar drop-in replacement for older > EPROM parts. What EPROMs are you looking to emulate? I'm game to design some more layouts. Jim From brain at jbrain.com Wed Nov 25 10:44:40 2009 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 10:44:40 -0600 Subject: Odds and Ends questions In-Reply-To: <4affc5e0911250514o66707805r971549dfd4e73771@mail.gmail.com> References: <4B0CCF9C.7070904@jbrain.com> <4affc5e0911250514o66707805r971549dfd4e73771@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B0D5EF8.90605@jbrain.com> Joachim Thiemann wrote: > > What have you been doing on your replacement ROM parts? (though I > guess on a rom all pins are strictly unidirectional :-) > I found a huge lot of 5V 128kB FLASH parts, so I did not have to deal with the issue. The MAX 7032A design is 5V tolerant, so I'm still OK there. Jim -- Jim Brain, Brain Innovations (X) brain at jbrain.com Dabbling in WWW, Embedded Systems, Old CBM computers, and Good Times! Home: http://www.jbrain.com From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Nov 25 10:55:18 2009 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 08:55:18 -0800 (PST) Subject: Odds and Ends questions In-Reply-To: <4B0D5E06.1000500@jbrain.com> References: <4B0CCF9C.7070904@jbrain.com> <4B0D5E06.1000500@jbrain.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 25 Nov 2009, Jim Brain wrote: > Gene Buckle wrote: >>> I ran a batch of MOS 6540 adapter PCBs, and I have created a small FLASH >>> replacement for the 2364 and 23128/23256 DIP ROMs. Some of those might be >>> of use on other 80's era machines. >>> >> I think that those would be quite valuable, especially if you decide to >> create variants that allow a similar drop-in replacement for older EPROM >> parts. > What EPROMs are you looking to emulate? I'm game to design some more > layouts. > I don't have anything off hand, but others may. (2716, etc?) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Nov 25 11:06:54 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 12:06:54 -0500 Subject: Odds and Ends questions In-Reply-To: References: <4B0CCF9C.7070904@jbrain.com> <4B0D5E06.1000500@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <0BB53779-4A2F-4348-AF19-AF23DC8838AF@neurotica.com> On Nov 25, 2009, at 11:55 AM, Gene Buckle wrote: >>>> I ran a batch of MOS 6540 adapter PCBs, and I have created a >>>> small FLASH replacement for the 2364 and 23128/23256 DIP ROMs. >>>> Some of those might be of use on other 80's era machines. >>> I think that those would be quite valuable, especially if you >>> decide to create variants that allow a similar drop-in >>> replacement for older EPROM parts. >> What EPROMs are you looking to emulate? I'm game to design some >> more layouts. >> > I don't have anything off hand, but others may. (2716, etc?) Why would someone want to emulate a 2716? They're easy to find and easy to program. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Wed Nov 25 11:13:25 2009 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 09:13:25 -0800 (PST) Subject: old simtel contents Message-ID: Does anyone still mirror the old Simtel archives anymore? I'm in need of msdos/arcers/extar10.zip among other things. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From ggs at shiresoft.com Wed Nov 25 11:15:44 2009 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 09:15:44 -0800 Subject: Odds and Ends questions In-Reply-To: <0BB53779-4A2F-4348-AF19-AF23DC8838AF@neurotica.com> References: <4B0CCF9C.7070904@jbrain.com> <4B0D5E06.1000500@jbrain.com> <0BB53779-4A2F-4348-AF19-AF23DC8838AF@neurotica.com> Message-ID: Forgot to ask, do you want the MMU board too? TTFN - Guy On Nov 25, 2009, at 9:06 AM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On Nov 25, 2009, at 11:55 AM, Gene Buckle wrote: >>>>> I ran a batch of MOS 6540 adapter PCBs, and I have created a >>>>> small FLASH replacement for the 2364 and 23128/23256 DIP ROMs. >>>>> Some of those might be of use on other 80's era machines. >>>> I think that those would be quite valuable, especially if you >>>> decide to create variants that allow a similar drop-in >>>> replacement for older EPROM parts. >>> What EPROMs are you looking to emulate? I'm game to design some >>> more layouts. >>> >> I don't have anything off hand, but others may. (2716, etc?) > > Why would someone want to emulate a 2716? They're easy to find and > easy to program. > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire > Port Charlotte, FL > > From ggs at shiresoft.com Wed Nov 25 11:20:28 2009 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 09:20:28 -0800 Subject: Odds and Ends questions In-Reply-To: References: <4B0CCF9C.7070904@jbrain.com> <4B0D5E06.1000500@jbrain.com> <0BB53779-4A2F-4348-AF19-AF23DC8838AF@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <79B9EF2A-3814-4B78-90C3-3497ED9A6203@shiresoft.com> Oops! Replied to wrong message! TTFN - Guy On Nov 25, 2009, at 9:15 AM, Guy Sotomayor wrote: > Forgot to ask, do you want the MMU board too? > > TTFN - Guy > > On Nov 25, 2009, at 9:06 AM, Dave McGuire wrote: > >> On Nov 25, 2009, at 11:55 AM, Gene Buckle wrote: >>>>>> I ran a batch of MOS 6540 adapter PCBs, and I have created a >>>>>> small FLASH replacement for the 2364 and 23128/23256 DIP ROMs. >>>>>> Some of those might be of use on other 80's era machines. >>>>> I think that those would be quite valuable, especially if you >>>>> decide to create variants that allow a similar drop-in >>>>> replacement for older EPROM parts. >>>> What EPROMs are you looking to emulate? I'm game to design some >>>> more layouts. >>>> >>> I don't have anything off hand, but others may. (2716, etc?) >> >> Why would someone want to emulate a 2716? They're easy to find and >> easy to program. >> >> -Dave >> >> -- >> Dave McGuire >> Port Charlotte, FL >> >> > > From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Wed Nov 25 11:24:14 2009 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 11:24:14 -0600 Subject: old simtel contents In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B0D683E.8020903@brutman.com> David Griffith wrote: > > Does anyone still mirror the old Simtel archives anymore? I'm in need > of msdos/arcers/extar10.zip among other things. > Right from the source: ftp://ftp.simtel.net/pub/simtelnet/msdos/arcers/extar10.zip Mike From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Wed Nov 25 12:25:51 2009 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 15:25:51 -0300 Subject: old simtel contents References: Message-ID: <033c01ca6dfc$c3796720$0301a8c0@Alexandre> > Does anyone still mirror the old Simtel archives anymore? I'm in need of > msdos/arcers/extar10.zip among other things. David, I have old Simtel CDs archived (around 95-97). If you want I can image them and put online. From cclist at sydex.com Wed Nov 25 11:34:34 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 09:34:34 -0800 Subject: Odds and Ends questions In-Reply-To: <4B0CD83C.2090400@jbrain.com> References: <4B0CCF9C.7070904@jbrain.com>, <4B0C63C1.16551.41A1E1@cclist.sydex.com>, <4B0CD83C.2090400@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <4B0CFA2A.32724.2F04DD@cclist.sydex.com> On 25 Nov 2009 at 1:09, Jim Brain wrote: > Can one use the ByteBlaster for Xilinx parts as well, or do I have to > buy two tools (I rather like the Xilinx part options better myself, > but the deal is on Altera stock.) Even though the two programmers are essentially JTAG, the connections to the parallel port are different and the software for CPLD programming driving them is tailored to a specific programmer. It's possible that one of the third-party (open source) JTAG programming software packakges might work; I haven't tried. The programmers themselves are dirt-simple--a few resistors and a couple of ICs (tristate buffers). You could build them dead-bug style in a DB25 connector shell if you wanted. There are substantially more expensive (and faster) USB programmers available, but speed of programming isn't usually a consideration on CPLDs; that's more of an issue with FPGAs. > stranded, either tinner or bare is fine. Teflon coating would be ideal > for the usage, but I hesitate on it because I can't seem to figure out > how to strip such wire. I don't know what your application is, but would a strip of ribbon cable do for what you need? Not twisted, of course. Cheers, Chuck From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Wed Nov 25 11:37:32 2009 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 09:37:32 -0800 (PST) Subject: old simtel contents In-Reply-To: <4B0D683E.8020903@brutman.com> References: <4B0D683E.8020903@brutman.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 25 Nov 2009, Michael B. Brutman wrote: > David Griffith wrote: >> >> Does anyone still mirror the old Simtel archives anymore? I'm in need of >> msdos/arcers/extar10.zip among other things. > > Right from the source: > > ftp://ftp.simtel.net/pub/simtelnet/msdos/arcers/extar10.zip Ah... I was trying mirrors and found them all wanting. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Nov 25 11:38:42 2009 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 09:38:42 -0800 (PST) Subject: old simtel contents In-Reply-To: <4B0D683E.8020903@brutman.com> from "Michael B. Brutman" at "Nov 25, 9 11:24:14 am" Message-ID: <200911251738.nAPHcgT8011844@floodgap.com> > > Does anyone still mirror the old Simtel archives anymore? I'm in need > > of msdos/arcers/extar10.zip among other things. > > Right from the source: > > ftp://ftp.simtel.net/pub/simtelnet/msdos/arcers/extar10.zip I've also put up the Simtel copy a list member graciously provided me here: gopher://gopher.floodgap.com/1/archive/walnut-creek-cd-simtel -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- FORTUNE: You will feel gypped by this fortune. ----------------------------- From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Nov 25 11:52:17 2009 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 09:52:17 -0800 (PST) Subject: old simtel contents In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 25 Nov 2009, David Griffith wrote: > > Does anyone still mirror the old Simtel archives anymore? I'm in need of > msdos/arcers/extar10.zip among other things. > Try http://cd.textfiles.com g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From jdr_use at bluewin.ch Wed Nov 25 12:16:47 2009 From: jdr_use at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 19:16:47 +0100 Subject: Tek t2xx mainframe with 7D01 plugin : still worthwhile ? Message-ID: <4B0D748F.9080003@bluewin.ch> Is it worthwhile to rescue a Tek 7xxx scope system with a 7d01 logic analyzer plugin ? It looks nice, but after reading the manual the usefullness seems limited.... jos From cclist at sydex.com Wed Nov 25 12:19:32 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 10:19:32 -0800 Subject: old simtel contents In-Reply-To: <200911251738.nAPHcgT8011844@floodgap.com> References: <4B0D683E.8020903@brutman.com> from "Michael B. Brutman" at "Nov 25, 9 11:24:14 am", <200911251738.nAPHcgT8011844@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <4B0D04B4.29180.582D3E@cclist.sydex.com> On a related topic, has the collection from FOG ever been posted? Does it still exist? --Chuck From keithvz at verizon.net Wed Nov 25 12:20:50 2009 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith M) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 13:20:50 -0500 Subject: Odds and Ends questions In-Reply-To: <4affc5e0911250514o66707805r971549dfd4e73771@mail.gmail.com> References: <4B0CCF9C.7070904@jbrain.com> <4affc5e0911250514o66707805r971549dfd4e73771@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B0D7582.2090200@verizon.net> Joachim Thiemann wrote: > I'm currently teaching myself VHDL using the free Xilinx tools ("ISE > Webpac" or something), using a Spartan3E board Which one? I've got the Digilent Spartan 3E starter kit. Nice because it has built-in programmer, ethernet, vga, lcd, etc etc. I'm in a similar boat and trying to learn Verilog. > I'm planning to use the Xilinx chips with my old Commodore stuff too, > and one of the problems is the use of 3.3V rather than 5V logic. Right. This is one place where the straight Spartan-3 is nice because it was 5v. The Spartan-3 aren't as big, so they aren't as flexible etc. > official recommendation from Xilinx for their Spartan devices is to > use simple resistor for connecting 5V out to 3.3V in, and just connect > straight-through for 3.3V out to 5V in. Yes, the value that comes to mind for doing this was 220 ohms. Xilinx makes boards that are designed to connect to 5v logic, in that case, they simply put resistors in line on the board itself. > I have no idea how I'd handle > a bidirectional port though; is a resistor good enough or is a level > shifter needed? That's my (limited) understanding -- that you need a level shifter. I was nearby McGill University in Montreal a few years back. Stayed at the Ritz Carlton on Sherbrooke West. Grabbed breakfast at Tim Horton's now and again. Greetings from another FPGA newbie. Keith From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Nov 25 12:25:29 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 13:25:29 -0500 Subject: Tek t2xx mainframe with 7D01 plugin : still worthwhile ? In-Reply-To: <4B0D748F.9080003@bluewin.ch> References: <4B0D748F.9080003@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: <426A6D75-5083-4DC0-91EB-E943E8E365F1@neurotica.com> On Nov 25, 2009, at 1:16 PM, Jos Dreesen wrote: > Is it worthwhile to rescue a Tek 7xxx scope system with a 7d01 > logic analyzer plugin ? > > It looks nice, but after reading the manual the usefullness seems > limited.... The scope frame, absolutely yes, but the 7D01 isn't that great as logic analyzers go. I'd grab it for the frame in a heartbeat. -Dave > -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From pcw at mesanet.com Wed Nov 25 12:32:59 2009 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 10:32:59 -0800 (PST) Subject: Odds and Ends questions In-Reply-To: <4affc5e0911250514o66707805r971549dfd4e73771@mail.gmail.com> References: <4B0CCF9C.7070904@jbrain.com> <4affc5e0911250514o66707805r971549dfd4e73771@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 25 Nov 2009, Joachim Thiemann wrote: > I'm planning to use the Xilinx chips with my old Commodore stuff too, > and one of the problems is the use of 3.3V rather than 5V logic. The > official recommendation from Xilinx for their Spartan devices is to > use simple resistor for connecting 5V out to 3.3V in, and just connect > straight-through for 3.3V out to 5V in. I have no idea how I'd handle > a bidirectional port though; is a resistor good enough or is a level > shifter needed? Resistors are fine for low speed/low drive situations. A good choice for higher speed/high drive applications is one of the passive bus switches (made by Pericom etc). They are nice because theres almost no propagation delay and no direction signals involved (they are bi-directional). They are basically arrays of NMOS series transistors that just turn off when the input voltage gets too high (and they lose gate drive) Peter Wallace From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Nov 25 13:15:11 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 14:15:11 -0500 Subject: Odds and Ends questions In-Reply-To: References: <4B0CCF9C.7070904@jbrain.com> <4affc5e0911250514o66707805r971549dfd4e73771@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <849B6B98-0A8F-4E89-8265-8E49E3ACC069@neurotica.com> On Nov 25, 2009, at 1:32 PM, Peter C. Wallace wrote: >> I'm planning to use the Xilinx chips with my old Commodore stuff too, >> and one of the problems is the use of 3.3V rather than 5V logic. The >> official recommendation from Xilinx for their Spartan devices is to >> use simple resistor for connecting 5V out to 3.3V in, and just >> connect >> straight-through for 3.3V out to 5V in. I have no idea how I'd >> handle >> a bidirectional port though; is a resistor good enough or is a level >> shifter needed? > > Resistors are fine for low speed/low drive situations. > > A good choice for higher speed/high drive applications is one of > the passive bus switches (made by Pericom etc). They are nice > because theres almost no propagation delay and no direction signals > involved (they are bi-directional). They are basically arrays of > NMOS series transistors that just turn off when the input voltage > gets too high (and they lose gate drive) I use a nice little MOSFET trick to bridge I2C buses (bidirectional open-drain lines with pull-up resistors) of different operating voltages. It works very well. I'll have to look at the circuit again to see if it'd be useful for something with full totem pole outputs. I can draw it up and share if anyone needs it. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From vrs at msn.com Wed Nov 25 13:19:12 2009 From: vrs at msn.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 11:19:12 -0800 Subject: Vintage Computer Forum (was Re: Ten Year Rule) References: <4B0BD328.5010102@gmail.com> <8A515E02-B7B0-49F8-9538-B0EEAF91E6C7@stillhq.com> <4B0BF298.1010401@gmail.com> <505389.30034.qm@web83905.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <4B0BF740.7000808@gmail.com> <394225.84135.qm@web83902.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <49EEECCB-4EC4-479E-BB06-F2C1BE917C80@neurotica.com> <07c201ca6d72$de144490$9a3ccdb0$@com> <081b01ca6ded$333bbc30$99b33490$@com> Message-ID: From: "Erik Klein": Sent: Wednesday, November 25, 2009 8:34 AM > On Tuesday, November 24, 2009 7:50 PM Vincent Slyngstad wrote: >> What about enabling RSS? I couldn't find that currently enabled >> anywhere. > > Your wish is my command: > http://www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum/external.php > > Talk about an RTFM moment! I didn't even know I could do RSS with the > forums. After some fiddling, it looks like the URL I was looking for is http://www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum/external.php?type=RSS2&forumids=23 which will allow me to look at your stuff at the same time I look at alt.sys.pdp8 and such on Google Groups. Thanks much! Vince From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Wed Nov 25 13:30:14 2009 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 14:30:14 -0500 (EST) Subject: old simtel contents In-Reply-To: <4B0D04B4.29180.582D3E@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4B0D683E.8020903@brutman.com> from "Michael B. Brutman" at "Nov 25, 9 11:24:14 am", <200911251738.nAPHcgT8011844@floodgap.com> <4B0D04B4.29180.582D3E@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 25 Nov 2009, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On a related topic, has the collection from FOG ever been posted? > Does it still exist? Perhaps this? http://www.gaby.de/ftp/pub/cpm/znode51/fog/filelist.htm ...with a file listing here: http://www.gaby.de/ftp/pub/cpm/znode51/fog/ Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From trag at io.com Wed Nov 25 13:32:39 2009 From: trag at io.com (Jeff Walther) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 13:32:39 -0600 (CST) Subject: Ten Year Rule In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5364dc077a7fb7e249b79748b9ed0e10.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com> > > Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 20:44:57 +0000 (GMT) > From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) > I would really hate it if this list became a mostly old PC (or Mac) list. > IMHO there are better places to discuss such machines (no, I don't know > hwere said places are). The two best places for discussion of old Macs are probably the Low End Mac (lowendmac.com) lists (includes "Vintage Macs" (68K) and "1st-PowerMacs" (NuBus PPC)) which are now hosted on Google, and the 68K Macintosh Liberation Army Forum at 68kmla.net. Applefritter.com is also nice but does not get as much traffic as 68kmla.net. This list is probably as good as anywhere these days for Apple Network Server information, because Cameron K. is here, unless he knows of an active forum for them. The last one I knew about is long gone. Not so many years ago the best place for Mac stuff was the comp.sys.mac.* hierarchy. Sigh. And you could buy and sell stuff in comp.sys.mac.wanted without paying Ebay fees... Jeff Walther From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Nov 25 13:36:04 2009 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 11:36:04 -0800 Subject: old simtel contents In-Reply-To: <4B0D04B4.29180.582D3E@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4B0D683E.8020903@brutman.com> from "Michael B. Brutman" at "Nov 25, 9 11:24:14 am", <200911251738.nAPHcgT8011844@floodgap.com> <4B0D04B4.29180.582D3E@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4B0D8724.70605@bitsavers.org> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On a related topic, has the collection from FOG ever been posted? > Does it still exist? > http://bitsavers.org/bits/Users_Groups/FOG/ and others, as have been pointed out. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Nov 25 13:41:13 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 14:41:13 -0500 Subject: Vintage Computer Forum (was Re: Ten Year Rule) In-Reply-To: References: <4B0BD328.5010102@gmail.com> <394225.84135.qm@web83902.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <49EEECCB-4EC4-479E-BB06-F2C1BE917C80@neurotica.com> <07c201ca6d72$de144490$9a3ccdb0$@com> <081b01ca6ded$333bbc30$99b33490$@com> Message-ID: On 11/25/09, Vincent Slyngstad wrote: > After some fiddling, it looks like the URL I was looking for is > http://www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum/external.php?type=RSS2&forumids=23 > > which will allow me to look at your stuff at the same time I look at > alt.sys.pdp8 and such on Google Groups. Nice! Thanks, Vince. I will probably bookmark that so I can check it from time to time. I should probably make a post there about my new-to-me VT78. It checks out so far, but I don't have a copy of OS/78 to do anything "fun" on it yet. I was hoping someone here would respond to my query about what's out there for the MR78 external ROM peripheral (semiconductor-simulated high-speed papertape reader), but from the silence, apparently not much. -ethan From joachim.thiemann at gmail.com Wed Nov 25 13:44:08 2009 From: joachim.thiemann at gmail.com (Joachim Thiemann) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 14:44:08 -0500 Subject: Odds and Ends questions In-Reply-To: <4B0D7582.2090200@verizon.net> References: <4B0CCF9C.7070904@jbrain.com> <4affc5e0911250514o66707805r971549dfd4e73771@mail.gmail.com> <4B0D7582.2090200@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4affc5e0911251144q7b3f9b50s3ce38f8c2f4541a9@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Nov 25, 2009 at 13:20, Keith M wrote: > Which one? I've got the Digilent Spartan 3E starter kit. ?Nice because it > has built-in programmer, ethernet, vga, lcd, etc etc. I have the Spartan-3E Sample Pack. Spartan indeed: it's a XC3E100E chip, 8M of parallel flash (configuration and user storage) 7 LEDs and one pushbutton. A lot of the IO pins are brought out to header pins. These were given away much like dealers giving away the first free hit - it worked :-) > I'm in a similar boat and trying to learn Verilog. I'm still not sure which one is "better" (knowing full well that the answer will depend on application, personal preference, employer preference, etc, etc...) but I've decided to go with VHDL since a lot of the "big" projects available on the net seem to use it. I am currently implementing a simple computer using the T65 core; without any practical application goals other than running into problem and fixing them :-) Eventually I'm thinking I could make a small single-chip CP/M computer using just a XC3S250 FPGA, the T80 soft core, and a SD card for storage; serial I/O instead of adding video and kbd drivers. (T80 seems to be too complex for the 100k gate chip, and it only has 4kb of BRAM anyways. The 250 comes with 24kb of ram, enough for CP/M.) [...3.3 to 5V...] > That's my (limited) understanding -- that you need a level shifter. I do want to try hooking up some old DRAM to the S3E, I'll try it with just resistors. If it works, I'll be very happy - if not it'll be a learning experience :-) Joe. -- Joachim Thiemann :: http://www.tsp.ece.mcgill.ca/~jthiem From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Nov 25 13:47:56 2009 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 11:47:56 -0800 (PST) Subject: Ten Year Rule In-Reply-To: <5364dc077a7fb7e249b79748b9ed0e10.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com> from Jeff Walther at "Nov 25, 9 01:32:39 pm" Message-ID: <200911251947.nAPJluj5005570@floodgap.com> > > I would really hate it if this list became a mostly old PC (or Mac) list. > > IMHO there are better places to discuss such machines (no, I don't know > > hwere said places are). > > The two best places for discussion of old Macs are probably the Low End > Mac (lowendmac.com) lists (includes "Vintage Macs" (68K) and > "1st-PowerMacs" (NuBus PPC)) which are now hosted on Google, and the 68K > Macintosh Liberation Army Forum at 68kmla.net. Applefritter.com is also > nice but does not get as much traffic as 68kmla.net. I like 68kmla but it lacks a lot of people with a good technical base. However, what it lacks in technical sense, it does make up for in enthusiasm. > This list is probably as good as anywhere these days for Apple Network > Server information, because Cameron K. is here, unless he knows of an > active forum for them. The last one I knew about is long gone. Yeah, xavax and shiner.info are all dead and shuttered. I suppose I should dredge up the ANS info site I've been "working on" for the last couple years and finish it. www.floodgap.com is still my hardworking ANS 500, now entering its 11th year of continuous service, still running its heavily patched-up AIX. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- You can't carve out success without cutting remarks. ----------------------- From alhartman at yahoo.com Wed Nov 25 13:50:12 2009 From: alhartman at yahoo.com (Al Hartman) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 11:50:12 -0800 (PST) Subject: Power Macs and PC Compatibility Cards In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <709822.77296.qm@web55301.mail.re4.yahoo.com> I have a 500 series card (don't remember which, I'd have to pull it out and look) with a manual. No cable or software. It was a pull from a batch of 7200's we won at auction years ago. ? If anyone would like it, make me an offer off-list. ? Also, I have a couple of 7200's that are available for free, if someone lives in the Philadelphia area and wants to pick one/both up. I also have a 7200 logic board that is a pull from one of the units I upgraded with a 7300 board, if someone wants a spare. I might even have more than one. ? I also have a Mac 512k Shell with tube and logic board, but nothing else if someone wants that to make a Macquarium out of, or to complete into a working unit. ? I'm moving in two months, and I'd like to get rid of some excess stuff. But, not to a landfill. ? Al From keithvz at verizon.net Wed Nov 25 14:30:02 2009 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith M) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 15:30:02 -0500 Subject: Odds and Ends questions In-Reply-To: <4affc5e0911251144q7b3f9b50s3ce38f8c2f4541a9@mail.gmail.com> References: <4B0CCF9C.7070904@jbrain.com> <4affc5e0911250514o66707805r971549dfd4e73771@mail.gmail.com> <4B0D7582.2090200@verizon.net> <4affc5e0911251144q7b3f9b50s3ce38f8c2f4541a9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B0D93CA.9000903@verizon.net> Joachim Thiemann wrote: >> I'm in a similar boat and trying to learn Verilog. > > I'm still not sure which one is "better" (knowing full well that the > answer will depend on application, personal preference, employer > preference, etc, etc...) but I've decided to go with VHDL since a lot > of the "big" projects available on the net seem to use it. The minimig (amiga in FPGA) I was interested in studying and learning about was written in verilog, hence the driving force for me for verilog. Besides, looking at the syntax, verilog seems closer to C than VHDL. And I've got a fair bit of C familiarity, so..... > I do want to try hooking up some old DRAM to the S3E, I'll try it with > just resistors. If it works, I'll be very happy - if not it'll be a > learning experience :-) I've been extremely frustrated with trying to get a WORKING synthesizable dram controller on the 3E. Despite free controllers @ opencores, and trying to use Memory Interface Generator as part of CoreGen, it's been impossible. My board has 64mb of DDR on it. http://www.xilinx.com/products/devkits/HW-SPAR3E-SK-US-G.htm I've also played with Microblaze (xilinx's 32-bit soft processor), Picoblaze (the 8-bit microcontroller), etc. Pretty neat. Thanks Keith From ats at offog.org Wed Nov 25 14:33:14 2009 From: ats at offog.org (Adam Sampson) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 20:33:14 +0000 Subject: old simtel contents In-Reply-To: (David Griffith's message of "Wed, 25 Nov 2009 09:13:25 -0800 (PST)") References: Message-ID: David Griffith writes: > Does anyone still mirror the old Simtel archives anymore? Yep, we do: http://www.mirrorservice.org/sites/ftp.simtel.net/pub/simtelnet/ -- Adam Sampson From cclist at sydex.com Wed Nov 25 14:43:29 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 12:43:29 -0800 Subject: old simtel contents In-Reply-To: <4B0D8724.70605@bitsavers.org> References: <4B0D683E.8020903@brutman.com>, <4B0D04B4.29180.582D3E@cclist.sydex.com>, <4B0D8724.70605@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4B0D2671.4862.DBF9F7@cclist.sydex.com> On 25 Nov 2009 at 11:36, Al Kossow wrote: > http://bitsavers.org/bits/Users_Groups/FOG/ > > and others, as have been pointed out. Thank you! The last time I checked (admittedly at least a couple of years ago), all that was available was a files listing. I was afraid that the actual content had been lost. Are back issues of FOGHorn online as well? --Chuck From ajp166 at verizon.net Wed Nov 25 15:07:32 2009 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 16:07:32 -0500 Subject: Vintage Computer Forum (was Re: Ten Year Rule) In-Reply-To: References: <4B0BD328.5010102@gmail.com> <394225.84135.qm@web83902.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <49EEECCB-4EC4-479E-BB06-F2C1BE917C80@neurotica.com> <07c201ca6d72$de144490$9a3ccdb0$@com> <081b01ca6ded$333bbc30$99b33490$@com> Message-ID: <4B0D9C94.3070704@verizon.net> Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 11/25/09, Vincent Slyngstad wrote: > >> After some fiddling, it looks like the URL I was looking for is >> http://www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum/external.php?type=RSS2&forumids=23 >> >> which will allow me to look at your stuff at the same time I look at >> alt.sys.pdp8 and such on Google Groups. >> > > Nice! Thanks, Vince. I will probably bookmark that so I can check it > from time to time. > > I should probably make a post there about my new-to-me VT78. It > checks out so far, but I don't have a copy of OS/78 to do anything > "fun" on it yet. I was hoping someone here would respond to my query > about what's out there for the MR78 external ROM peripheral > (semiconductor-simulated high-speed papertape reader), but from the > silence, apparently not much. > > The MR78 was only used for the booter. I believe there were at least two booters, RX01, RX02. OS/78 you need to find it on the net, then copy to RX01 formatted 8" floppy. Allison > -ethan > > From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Nov 25 15:36:33 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 16:36:33 -0500 Subject: VT78/MR78/OS78 (was Re: Vintage Computer Forum) Message-ID: On 11/25/09, allison wrote: >> >> I should probably make a post there about my new-to-me VT78. It >> checks out so far, but I don't have a copy of OS/78 to do anything >> "fun" on it yet. I was hoping someone here would respond to my query >> about what's out there for the MR78 >> > The MR78 was only used for the booter. Right. It's just a bunch of ROMs and clock chips pretending to be a PR8E-like papertape reader. > I believe there were at least two booters, RX01, RX02. I've found reference for those as well as a mention of a diagnostic ROM set. I would like to be able to put together a box with 4x or 8x the normal ROM, use modern ROMs and burn all known booters rather than hack on my one-and-only MR78. Fortunately, it hangs off of a DB25, so it should be trivial to redesign and build in the same space. > OS/78 you need to find it on the net, then copy to RX01 > formatted 8" floppy. I've seen OS/278 from the DECUS collection. I must not be looking into the right places for OS/78. Writing the RX01 floppy is no big deal - with what I have sitting around the house, the shortest path is probably to throw an RXV11 or RXV12 into a Qbus box and use vtserver to move the disk image. The second shortest path would be to get around to assembling a 34-to-50-pin cable and using an old PC to write the image. Fortunately, I have multiple 8" drives and several boxes of still-in-the-shrinkwrap 8" disks, most (but not all) already formatted in IBM 3740 format. -ethan From andreww591 at gmail.com Wed Nov 25 15:46:15 2009 From: andreww591 at gmail.com (Andrew Warkentin) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 14:46:15 -0700 Subject: Ten Year Rule In-Reply-To: References: <4B0BD328.5010102@gmail.com> <8A515E02-B7B0-49F8-9538-B0EEAF91E6C7@stillhq.com> <4B0BF298.1010401@gmail.com> <6dbe3c380911240735n14776085r4fb431c329075356@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B0DA5A7.3030203@gmail.com> Dave McGuire wrote: > ...and the MIPS-based DECstation-5000 line. That was NT. > > DECstations usually ran ULTRIX. I think that the only version of Windows NT that ran on a DECstation was an early alpha that was never publicly released. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Nov 25 14:46:40 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 20:46:40 +0000 (GMT) Subject: YATYD: Ten Year Rule In-Reply-To: <20091124150623.O69234@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Nov 24, 9 03:08:21 pm Message-ID: > > We are unable to objectively clarify what would be interesting. Yes, I was thinking about this. Why do we like classic computers? I would guess the reasons are different for different people here, but in my case it's becasue they are machines that I _can_ understand the hardware (and often the software) of. THey are machines I can have the tools and test gear to investigate and repair them. I suspect for some people it's nostalgia, being able to own all the machines they read/heard about when they were starting out (I am thinking of the micros of the late 1970's/ early 1980's). For me this is not the case, I say that because I was unashamedly a TRS-80 person back then, and while I now own many of the other micros of the period (Apple ][, PETs, BBC, etc), they are by no means the machiens I am most interested in. The machines I spend most of my time working on are machines I'd never heard of when they were new. > other than that, the only appropriate machines for discussion are those > that were around when I was young[er]. Err, doesn't that include very reacent PCs? If they were around yesterday, they were technically around when you were younger :-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Nov 25 14:52:19 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 20:52:19 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Epson HPIL interface In-Reply-To: from "Dave Caroline" at Nov 24, 9 11:09:50 pm Message-ID: > > Looks very MX80 to me but the base colour is different, I know they FWIW, the HP service manual for the 82906 (but not th 82905) is on the Australain museum site. It states it was OEMed by Epson and also says the case parts are HP-specific (presumaly due to the colour). The HPIL interface (HP product) that I have had a light grey connnector panel on it, presumably that was the colour of the case mouldings for the HP version. I would be interested to know what printers used the same electronics. The 82906 mainboard contains an 7810 and a 8042 IIRC, which makes it later than the IBM 5152 (which I have the schematics for of course). That uses an 8048 and an 8042, I suspect the HP82905 does likewise, but that's the sort of thing I'm trying to discover... As an aside, does anyone know which Epson model was used for the IBM 5152? > would do heavy mods for large manufacturers so changing colour of the > plastics is simple, Epson TX80 was used for the Commodore printer. Is the TX80 the one with the large 2-pitch leadscrew to move the printhead? Used in the CBM 2023 etc? I think I have at least one spare mechanism and spare PCB in the spares box. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Nov 25 14:54:23 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 20:54:23 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Cleaning packs In-Reply-To: <133901ca6d5e$25406110$0301a8c0@Alexandre> from "Alexandre Souza - Listas" at Nov 24, 9 08:29:47 pm Message-ID: > > > Also, IIRC, when reassembling the casing, you _must_ insert a screw then > > turn it anticlockwise until the threads engange before doing it up. If > > you cut a new thread in the plastic (self tapping screws), you run the > > risk of puting little bits of plastic on the disk. > > This is something you should do in everything :) > Agreed. But the DEC RK05 manual is the only one I've seen that specifically tells you to do it. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Nov 25 14:57:16 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 20:57:16 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Cleaning packs In-Reply-To: <4B0C6C35.904@hachti.de> from "Philipp Hachtmann" at Nov 25, 9 00:28:53 am Message-ID: > > < If you cut a new thread in the plastic (self tapping screws), you > >> run the risk of puting little bits of plastic on the disk. > > > > This is something you should do in everything :) > Of course. If you don't take care, you get lose screws.... Yes, if you re-cut the threads too many times. And then you have to stic k some plastic shavings down the hole with a suitable solvent and try again. > But... Info from DEC field service (no joke, one of my 8/Ls has been > repaired for me by an original DEC field service engineer!!!) is the > following: "It's not the "big stuff" that is dangerous for the disk > system, it's everything that fits between the head and the disk surface. > Normal dust and other stuff is simply kicked away" Hmmm. I would take that with a pinch of NaCl. To be fari, the RK05 is _very_ forgiving. Even after a real headcrash the heads are quite often still useable. Other drives may be a lot less easy to keep going. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Nov 25 15:44:15 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 21:44:15 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Tek t2xx mainframe with 7D01 plugin : still worthwhile ? In-Reply-To: <4B0D748F.9080003@bluewin.ch> from "Jos Dreesen" at Nov 25, 9 07:16:47 pm Message-ID: > > Is it worthwhile to rescue a Tek 7xxx scope system with a 7d01 logic analyzer plugin ? > > It looks nice, but after reading the manual the usefullness seems limited.... If it's got the pods with it, then yes, it's still quite useful. If it's got the add-on module to the left of the main analyser (is that a 7D02?) then it's even more useful. I used wone for many yeas at Bristol University to debug my homebrew transputer systems... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Nov 25 15:18:13 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 21:18:13 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Cleaning packs In-Reply-To: from "Guy Sotomayor" at Nov 24, 9 06:04:20 pm Message-ID: > > > On Nov 24, 2009, at 1:08 PM, geoffrey oltmans wrote: > > > Dumb question (perhaps), but do the relative positions of the disk > > platters in the pack matter on these systems? I suppose it might for > > interleaving purposes for data already recorded. > > I would suspect yes but never having cleaned multi-platter packs, I'd > only do that on packs that I don't care about the data (ie I'm going > to format the pack as soon as it's "clean"). If I care about the data > that *might* be on them I probably wouldn't disassemble (ie de-stack) > the pack. I qwould be very careful about dismantling the pack for another reason. Often there is no automatic centring of the platters. If you seprate them, you will have to centre them up. On the (crashed) 5-platter pack I dismantled about 25 years ago (for interest), there were holes throuch the top and bottom hparts of the hub through which you put long rods to keep the platters and spacers _approximately_ cententerd. But then, I think, you have to put the hu on the drive spindle (or a similar spindle in a test rig) nd use a dial gauge to position the platters so there's no run-out when you rotate the stack by hand. Given that moving one platter is likely to slightly move all the others, this is a long and tedious job. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Nov 25 15:28:17 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 21:28:17 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Ten Year Rule In-Reply-To: from "Geoffrey Reed" at Nov 24, 9 09:51:56 pm Message-ID: > > Somewhat related to the 10 year rule :) fixing systems, aligning drives and > building NOS z-80, etc. > > I would like reccomendations for inexpensive-ish oscilloscopes :) Personally, I'd rather have a second-hand Tektronix than a new no-name (and the price could well be comparable). > > What sort of bandwidth does one need, are there any materials out there for A reasoanble rule of thunb is that you need a bandwidth of 3 times the fastest (clock) signal you want to observe. So if yoy're working one a machine with an 8MHz master clock, then a 25MHz 'scope is OK. If you want to work on a PDP11/45 (33MHz clock), then you really need a 100MHz 'scope But you can often get by with a lot less... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Nov 25 15:36:37 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 21:36:37 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Odds and Ends questions In-Reply-To: <4B0CCF9C.7070904@jbrain.com> from "Jim Brain" at Nov 25, 9 00:33:00 am Message-ID: > > 1. I have a need for a DE9 female connector without the metal > housing, something like > (http://www.robotshop.ca/Images/small/en/parallax-basic-stamp-1-serial-adapter-T.jpg). > I need quite a few of them, so I'd rather not buy DE-9s and rip > off the shielded housing manually. Anyone have ideas? A problem with removing the matal housing is that often the insulator is in 2 parts with the contacts held between them. Remove the metal, and it all falls apart. I did once cut down the metal on a DE9 socket and solder the bits togther to hold the insualtor/.contacts in place, but it was a right kludge. Last time I needed such connectors, they were to fit the joystick ports on a Vectrex. At the time (this was some 15 years ago) there was a common video game console that used DE9 sockets for the joysticks (Sega Megadrive?). I rememebr buying extension cables from the local games shop, cutting off theplug and and slightly trimming the edges of the socket to fit the Vectrex. This cables had all 9 pins wired, I seem to rememebr there was a similar cable that missed out at least one pin :-( > 4. Anyone have a source for 28AWG 2 conductor twisted wire? > 5. If so, do they make it in 3 conductor? When i needed twisted-pair wire-wrap wire (for modifying a DEC backplane) I made it myself. Put a couple of reels of wire on a rod clamped in the bench vice, then put the ends of the wire in the chuck of a wheelbrace type of hand drill. Got a friend to apply a little backtenstion to the reels and then walked across the workshop. When I had a suitable lengthm I stated winding the handle. Didn't take long to get 3 twists per inch (which is roughyl what yuou need for 100 ohm characteristic impedance). I see no reason why that woudn't work for 3 wires too. -tony From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Nov 25 15:50:07 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 16:50:07 -0500 Subject: Ten Year Rule In-Reply-To: <4B0DA5A7.3030203@gmail.com> References: <4B0BD328.5010102@gmail.com> <8A515E02-B7B0-49F8-9538-B0EEAF91E6C7@stillhq.com> <4B0BF298.1010401@gmail.com> <6dbe3c380911240735n14776085r4fb431c329075356@mail.gmail.com> <4B0DA5A7.3030203@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Nov 25, 2009, at 4:46 PM, Andrew Warkentin wrote: >> ...and the MIPS-based DECstation-5000 line. That was NT. > > DECstations usually ran ULTRIX. True. > I think that the only version of Windows NT that ran on a > DECstation was an early alpha that was never publicly released. I never said it was publicly released. ;) I've seen it running with my own eyes, though...it definitely did exist. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From andreww591 at gmail.com Wed Nov 25 15:54:19 2009 From: andreww591 at gmail.com (Andrew Warkentin) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 14:54:19 -0700 Subject: HPEMU In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B0DA78B.7010204@gmail.com> SPC wrote: > Just curious... What happened with this project ? There is a *broken* link > in www.hp1000.org pointing to www.classiccmp.org > > Regards > Sergio > It appears to me that it was never released. SIMH has a reasonably complete HP21xx/HP1000 emulator (which is capable of running RTE-6 and earlier versions of RTE, all versions of HP 2000 TSB, and paper tape standalone software), so you could use that if you want an HP21xx emulator. From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Wed Nov 25 16:51:08 2009 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 19:51:08 -0300 Subject: VT78/MR78/OS78 (was Re: Vintage Computer Forum) References: Message-ID: <04d601ca6e22$dd85d740$0301a8c0@Alexandre> > I've found reference for those as well as a mention of a diagnostic > ROM set. I would like to be able to put together a box with 4x or 8x > the normal ROM, use modern ROMs and burn all known booters rather than > hack on my one-and-only MR78. Fortunately, it hangs off of a DB25, so > it should be trivial to redesign and build in the same space. I'd do that with a microcontroller, an EPROM and like :) Nice project :D From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Wed Nov 25 17:03:09 2009 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 20:03:09 -0300 Subject: Epson HPIL interface References: Message-ID: <04f501ca6e24$51db3940$0301a8c0@Alexandre> > I would be interested to know what printers used the same electronics. > The 82906 mainboard contains an 7810 and a 8042 IIRC, which makes it > later than the IBM 5152 (which I have the schematics for of course). That > uses an 8048 and an 8042, I suspect the HP82905 does likewise, but > that's the sort of thing I'm trying to discover... MX80/RX80 comes to mind. I'd tell you the brazilian ones which were clones, but I doubt you're interested From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Wed Nov 25 17:05:51 2009 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 20:05:51 -0300 Subject: Cleaning packs References: Message-ID: <04f801ca6e24$5302f060$0301a8c0@Alexandre> >> This is something you should do in everything :) > Agreed. But the DEC RK05 manual is the only one I've seen that > specifically tells you to do it. Some "technics" should be teach (or are, but no one remembers it) in basic school: - Put one hand in back while messing with >24V circuits - Turning back the screw until you feels a "bump" not to cross-thread the hole - Keep flamabiles away from electricity and heat - And so on Incredible a manual has that. But why not have? Nice to see it :) I need to read more DEC manuals, by what you all say, there are lots of interesting info on that. From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Wed Nov 25 17:08:37 2009 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 20:08:37 -0300 Subject: Tek t2xx mainframe with 7D01 plugin : still worthwhile ? References: Message-ID: <04f901ca6e24$54283680$0301a8c0@Alexandre> >> Is it worthwhile to rescue a Tek 7xxx scope system with a 7d01 logic >> analyzer plugin ? >> It looks nice, but after reading the manual the usefullness seems >> limited.... I'd give my life for it :) But remember I live in the third world :oP > If it's got the pods with it, then yes, it's still quite useful. If it's > got the add-on module to the left of the main analyser (is that a 7D02?) > then it's even more useful. It makes me look to my Tek 3001GPX with a sad face... I'd die for a set of P6490 pods :'( Or at least a schematic ;o) From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Nov 25 16:11:25 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 17:11:25 -0500 Subject: VT78/MR78/OS78 (was Re: Vintage Computer Forum) In-Reply-To: <04d601ca6e22$dd85d740$0301a8c0@Alexandre> References: <04d601ca6e22$dd85d740$0301a8c0@Alexandre> Message-ID: On 11/25/09, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >> I've found reference for those as well as a mention of a diagnostic >> ROM set. I would like to be able to put together a box with 4x or 8x >> the normal ROM, use modern ROMs and burn all known booters rather than >> hack on my one-and-only MR78. Fortunately, it hangs off of a DB25, so >> it should be trivial to redesign and build in the same space. > > I'd do that with a microcontroller, an EPROM and like :) Nice project :D No microcontroller required - it's already just a handful of TTL chips. -ethan From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Wed Nov 25 17:11:04 2009 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 20:11:04 -0300 Subject: Ten Year Rule References: Message-ID: <050d01ca6e25$cf393a80$0301a8c0@Alexandre> >> I would like reccomendations for inexpensive-ish oscilloscopes :) > Personally, I'd rather have a second-hand Tektronix than a new no-name > (and the price could well be comparable). Tony, although I know your love for things you can repair and have the schematics, the RIGOL and OWON digital scopes are great tools (and not toys) for a cheap price. Take a look at the rigol digital scopes on ebay. I'm planning in buying one to stay aside my Hitachi V1100A (100 MHz, 4 channels, digital readout). BTW, anyone with a pair or a set of four 100MHz scope probes for the right price (as cheap as possible)??? :o) From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Nov 25 16:21:18 2009 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 15:21:18 -0700 Subject: old simtel contents In-Reply-To: References: <4B0D683E.8020903@brutman.com> Message-ID: <4B0DADDE.1080806@jetnet.ab.ca> David Griffith wrote: > On Wed, 25 Nov 2009, Michael B. Brutman wrote: > >> David Griffith wrote: >>> >>> Does anyone still mirror the old Simtel archives anymore? I'm in >>> need of msdos/arcers/extar10.zip among other things. >> >> Right from the source: >> >> ftp://ftp.simtel.net/pub/simtelnet/msdos/arcers/extar10.zip > > Ah... I was trying mirrors and found them all wanting. > I still think that all needs to be mirrored, as FTP sites are vanishing quickly. From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Wed Nov 25 17:20:52 2009 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 20:20:52 -0300 Subject: VT78/MR78/OS78 (was Re: Vintage Computer Forum) References: <04d601ca6e22$dd85d740$0301a8c0@Alexandre> Message-ID: <051601ca6e27$408a3620$0301a8c0@Alexandre> >> I'd do that with a microcontroller, an EPROM and like :) Nice project >> :D > No microcontroller required - it's already just a handful of TTL chips. Why use a handful of ttl chips if I can do the same with a pair? :o) From thomas.gardner at sbcglobal.net Wed Nov 25 16:35:13 2009 From: thomas.gardner at sbcglobal.net (Tom Gardner) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 14:35:13 -0800 Subject: Cleaning packs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2B8868023CF14C02A8CD95C2F3DBF8B4@tegp4> > Message: 26 > Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 21:18:13 +0000 (GMT) > From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) > Subject: Re: Cleaning packs > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain > > > > > > > On Nov 24, 2009, at 1:08 PM, geoffrey oltmans wrote: > > > > > Dumb question (perhaps), but do the relative positions of the disk > > > platters in the pack matter on these systems? I suppose it might for > > > interleaving purposes for data already recorded. > > > > I would suspect yes but never having cleaned multi-platter packs, I'd > > only do that on packs that I don't care about the data (ie I'm going > > to format the pack as soon as it's "clean"). If I care about the data > > that *might* be on them I probably wouldn't disassemble (ie de-stack) > > the pack. > > I would be very careful about dismantling the pack for another reason. > Often there is no automatic centring of the platters. If you seprate > them, you will have to centre them up. On the (crashed) 5-platter pack I > dismantled about 25 years ago (for interest), there were holes throuch > the top and bottom hparts of the hub through which you put long rods to > keep the platters and spacers _approximately_ cententerd. But then, I > think, you have to put the hu on the drive spindle (or a similar spindle > in a test rig) nd use a dial gauge to position the platters so there's > no run-out when you rotate the stack by hand. Given that moving one > platter is likely to slightly move all the others, this is a long and > tedious job. > > -tony I would not clean any pack that had a lubricated disk surface. The good news is I am pretty sure that lubrication was introduced with the IBM 3340 (Winchester) so the 2315, 2316, 3336, 3336-11, SMD and their DEC equivalents (RP0x, etc) were not lubricated. I don't know anything about the later uniquely DEC packs but I expect they used high load heads and were not lubricated. As I recall we cleaned non-lubricated disk packs with a tongue depressor, a non shedding wipe (Kim Wipe) and isopropyl alcohol (medical grade). You want to make sure there is no residue! If you don't care about the data you can disassemble and reassemble disk packs that do not use a track following servo systems, that is 2316 and 2x2316 types. You do not have to center them up! If you are real careful you can disassemble and reassemble a servo type disk pack so long as you are very, very careful not to move (or replace) the disk containing the servo pattern! This applies to the 3330 and SMD type of disk packs. A while ago, I was surprised to find out that several "recovery" houses were doing this routinely and claiming to recover data on the original disks still in the pack!. If you do move the servo disk, as witnessed by repeatable runout in the servo system, I am told that some skilled folks can actually center them up by careful instrumentation, measurement and gentle tapping of the servo disk in a not fully tightened assembly. Tom From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Wed Nov 25 16:37:58 2009 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 23:37:58 +0100 Subject: Ten Year Rule In-Reply-To: <6dbe3c380911240735n14776085r4fb431c329075356@mail.gmail.com> References: <4B0BD328.5010102@gmail.com> <8A515E02-B7B0-49F8-9538-B0EEAF91E6C7@stillhq.com> <4B0BF298.1010401@gmail.com> <6dbe3c380911240735n14776085r4fb431c329075356@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20091125233758.d58b03c1.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Tue, 24 Nov 2009 09:35:37 -0600 Brian Lanning wrote: > And which version of windows was it that ran on the dec alpha? NT. Alpha support was canceled just before the release of XP. NT run on the PowerStack PReP (PPC) machines from Motorola also. I have a pile of those PowerStack II boxen. Though, my boxen have OpenFirmWare and run AIX 4.x in a previous life. (...as office systems used by the German police!) You need ARC firmware for NT. There was a Solaris 2.5.? PPC... The SGI Indigo2 and Indy where also "Windows NT ready" but AFAIK NT was never ported to them. (HAL-layer...) BTW: Recently I conjured bad Daemons in the Unix-AG room. I replaced HP-sUX with The-Anti-Unix, i.e. VMS 8.3, on a HP Integrity RX2600 Itanium2 machine . (I consider these two classic, although they are not ten years old.) When an other Unix-AG fellow saw somthing about "PAGEFILE.SYS" on the screen he screemed in disgust: "Eeewwww! Windows!". Much to my amusement, knowing the heritage of NT... :-) BTW2: An other example of non-PeeCee i386 systems where the first SGI Visual Workstations. -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Nov 25 16:46:48 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 17:46:48 -0500 Subject: VT78/MR78/OS78 (was Re: Vintage Computer Forum) In-Reply-To: <051601ca6e27$408a3620$0301a8c0@Alexandre> References: <04d601ca6e22$dd85d740$0301a8c0@Alexandre> <051601ca6e27$408a3620$0301a8c0@Alexandre> Message-ID: On 11/25/09, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >>> I'd do that with a microcontroller, an EPROM and like :) Nice project >>> >>> :D >> No microcontroller required - it's already just a handful of TTL chips. > > Why use a handful of ttl chips if I can do the same with a pair? :o) Because I can wire up a handful of chips in the time it takes to design and build a microcontroller then write and debug the program for it. If I have to design a complete functional replacement, that's one level of effort. If I can clone an existing design, that's a different level of effort. In the case of a 4X MR78, I can easily redesign the ROM field and slap on two upper address switches and not worry about the timing between an IM6100 and an independent microcontroller. This device needs to sit on a wad of ROM and listen to the VT78 ask for more bytes and feed them down the pipe. It would need to have enough I/O lines to address the ROMs in the box and to listen to the VT78 - I haven't analyzed the design, but for 16K of ROM, you need either a lot of free I/O pins to strobe the address pins of the ROM or you need to throw in a shift register or something similar to externally address the ROM, adding to the complexity of the software design. Either way, it's an entirely new peripheral at that point, with lots of debugging ahead. Building some with 8-10 TTL parts is a construction project much more than a design project. Someone who designs hardware all day is free to go build an AVR-based MR78 replacement, but I don't know that I would ever find the time to spend to take that route - I've worked with design engineers on testing and refining commercial products - it's easier than it used to be, but it still takes a lot of time and effort to ensure that what is happening is what you want to happen and no more, no less. It's not that I never work with microcontrollers. I have built several AVR-based devices and am building an 8051-family device. Those items require flexibility far beyond clocking a bunch of ROM reads. They have to interpret command streams from larger processors and have complex behavior (well over "here's your next byte"). They need a microcontroller. I'm not sold on the design-time/construction tradeoff for a peripheral for a VT78 - the market for that is small enough I could probably hold all the devices in one hand - not worth putting large amounts of effort into designing something completely new. Pick your battles and your toys. Sometimes, a 555 LED flasher is easier and cheaper than a microcontroller even though you can do it either way. -ethan From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Nov 25 16:55:10 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 17:55:10 -0500 Subject: VT78/MR78/OS78 (was Re: Vintage Computer Forum) In-Reply-To: References: <04d601ca6e22$dd85d740$0301a8c0@Alexandre> <051601ca6e27$408a3620$0301a8c0@Alexandre> Message-ID: <7ED057A9-F0B2-4CCA-8AC1-FB68CB688D77@neurotica.com> On Nov 25, 2009, at 5:46 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > It's not that I never work with microcontrollers. I have built > several AVR-based devices and am building an 8051-family device. > Those items require flexibility far beyond clocking a bunch of ROM > reads. They have to interpret command streams from larger processors > and have complex behavior (well over "here's your next byte"). They > need a microcontroller. I'm not sold on the design-time/construction > tradeoff for a peripheral for a VT78 - the market for that is small > enough I could probably hold all the devices in one hand - not worth > putting large amounts of effort into designing something completely > new. > > Pick your battles and your toys. Sometimes, a 555 LED flasher is > easier and cheaper than a microcontroller even though you can do it > either way. I dunno, I can throw some firmware together in C and blow it into an 8751 (and get that 8751 running on a piece of perfboard) a lot faster than I can wire up a dozen or two TTL chips. ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Wed Nov 25 17:53:28 2009 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 20:53:28 -0300 Subject: VT78/MR78/OS78 (was Re: Vintage Computer Forum) References: <04d601ca6e22$dd85d740$0301a8c0@Alexandre><051601ca6e27$408a3620$0301a8c0@Alexandre> Message-ID: <056701ca6e2a$c20bb770$0301a8c0@Alexandre> > Pick your battles and your toys. Sometimes, a 555 LED flasher is > easier and cheaper than a microcontroller even though you can do it > either way. Whatever, I do like to design with microcontrollers :) Call me lazy! :oD From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Nov 25 17:03:46 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 18:03:46 -0500 Subject: VT78/MR78/OS78 (was Re: Vintage Computer Forum) In-Reply-To: <7ED057A9-F0B2-4CCA-8AC1-FB68CB688D77@neurotica.com> References: <04d601ca6e22$dd85d740$0301a8c0@Alexandre> <051601ca6e27$408a3620$0301a8c0@Alexandre> <7ED057A9-F0B2-4CCA-8AC1-FB68CB688D77@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On 11/25/09, Dave McGuire wrote: > I dunno, I can throw some firmware together in C and blow it into > an 8751 (and get that 8751 running on a piece of perfboard) a lot > faster than I can wire up a dozen or two TTL chips. ;) A dozen or two? Probably. This is a much smaller scale than that. How about 4-8? -ethan From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Nov 25 17:19:45 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 18:19:45 -0500 Subject: VT78/MR78/OS78 (was Re: Vintage Computer Forum) In-Reply-To: References: <04d601ca6e22$dd85d740$0301a8c0@Alexandre> <051601ca6e27$408a3620$0301a8c0@Alexandre> <7ED057A9-F0B2-4CCA-8AC1-FB68CB688D77@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Nov 25, 2009, at 6:03 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> I dunno, I can throw some firmware together in C and blow it into >> an 8751 (and get that 8751 running on a piece of perfboard) a lot >> faster than I can wire up a dozen or two TTL chips. ;) > > A dozen or two? Probably. This is a much smaller scale than that. > How about 4-8? Ahh, ok, point taken. :) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Nov 25 17:26:14 2009 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 15:26:14 -0800 Subject: old simtel contents In-Reply-To: <4B0D2671.4862.DBF9F7@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4B0D683E.8020903@brutman.com>, <4B0D04B4.29180.582D3E@cclist.sydex.com>, <4B0D8724.70605@bitsavers.org> <4B0D2671.4862.DBF9F7@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4B0DBD16.5000501@bitsavers.org> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 25 Nov 2009 at 11:36, Al Kossow wrote: > > Are back issues of FOGHorn > online as well? > Not currently. I think they are in the CHM archives, but aren't scanned yet. From cclist at sydex.com Wed Nov 25 18:02:44 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 16:02:44 -0800 Subject: Tek t2xx mainframe with 7D01 plugin : still worthwhile ? In-Reply-To: <04f901ca6e24$54283680$0301a8c0@Alexandre> References: , <04f901ca6e24$54283680$0301a8c0@Alexandre> Message-ID: <4B0D5524.21987.1926619@cclist.sydex.com> > Is it worthwhile to rescue a Tek 7xxx scope system with a 7d01 > logic analyzer plugin ? It looks nice, but after reading the manual > the usefullness seems limited.... I used one back in the day. It's limited, but very handy if what you have in front of you is a scope. It was adequate in the 70's, but in view of what's available today--eh... --Chuck From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Nov 25 18:04:11 2009 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 16:04:11 -0800 Subject: external bus adapter Message-ID: <4B0DC5FB.6040108@bitsavers.org> just ran across this http://www.arstech.com/cat--ssi2.html if you want to run ISA/PCMCIA/PCI cards off of a laptop OS X support was interesting. From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Nov 25 18:27:04 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 16:27:04 -0800 (PST) Subject: Ten Year Rule In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20091125161326.M19134@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 25 Nov 2009, Tony Duell wrote: > Personally, I'd rather have a second-hand Tektronix than a new no-name > (and the price could well be comparable). I am not a hardware person. At all. 40 years ago, I bought a used Tektronix scope. Model 512? 412? 510? Later, somebody said to me that it was their first production model. It was a lot of fun. It would not have been adequate for aligning floppy drives. I have been told that that calls for dual-trace and 20MHz or higher. Is that correct? Eventually, I gave it to somebody who needed it more than I did, and I got myself a used NLS 215. Still not enough for floppy drive alignment. But lots of fun for other miscellaneous stuff. Eventually, I sold it at VCF. Even I miss having a scope. Can you imagine what the world would be like if NLS had gotten into making computers? :-) They'd probably grow faster than they could manage, and end up trying to expand into tents in the parking lot! . . . and not even know their inventory well enough to know if something went missing! -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Wed Nov 25 19:00:08 2009 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 17:00:08 -0800 Subject: Ten Year Rule In-Reply-To: <20091125233758.d58b03c1.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <4B0BD328.5010102@gmail.com> <8A515E02-B7B0-49F8-9538-B0EEAF91E6C7@stillhq.com> <4B0BF298.1010401@gmail.com> <6dbe3c380911240735n14776085r4fb431c329075356@mail.gmail.com> <20091125233758.d58b03c1.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <4B0DD318.2020304@mail.msu.edu> Jochen Kunz wrote: > On Tue, 24 Nov 2009 09:35:37 -0600 > Brian Lanning wrote: > > >> And which version of windows was it that ran on the dec alpha? >> > NT. Alpha support was canceled just before the release of XP. Actually, just before Windows 2000. (The Win2k Beta for AXP is still floating around out there). Interesting historical note: Microsoft internally used Alpha hardware to smoke-test porting XP to the Itanium and other 64-bit platforms (Previous NT builds on Alpha were really only 32-bit) before the real hardware was widely available. I have a hard disk image of such a build, kinda cool but you can't do much with it... as was true with most other non-x86 flavors of NT. Not a lot of software for the non-x86 platforms. DEC's FX!32 was really cool, though. I got Firefox 2.0 running on my Alpha under NT 4.0 using that... Josh From afra at aurigae.demon.co.uk Wed Nov 25 21:20:31 2009 From: afra at aurigae.demon.co.uk (Phill Harvey-Smith) Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2009 03:20:31 +0000 Subject: RM Nimbus 186 info request.... Message-ID: <4B0DF3FF.4070606@aurigae.demon.co.uk> Hi, On the offchance that someone here may be able to help me...... I'm looking for any low-level technical information about the RM Nimbus 80186 based machine. Specifically I'm looking for details of bios calls, and hardware addresses, bus pinouts etc. If anyone has a copy of "The Nimbus Advanced Programmers Refference Guide" that they would be willing to part with, that would be most helpfull. Cheers. Phill. -- Phill Harvey-Smith, Programmer, Hardware hacker, and general eccentric ! "You can twist perceptions, but reality won't budge" -- Rush. From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Nov 25 22:02:30 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 23:02:30 -0500 Subject: Ten Year Rule In-Reply-To: <20091125161326.M19134@shell.lmi.net> References: <20091125161326.M19134@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: > Can you imagine what the world would be like if NLS had gotten into making > computers? ?:-) They almost did. I had a big rack of NLS stuff - basically a 1960s automated test station. There were several of those neato NLS voltmeters, a printer, and a couple of chassis full of NLS logic cards. Even with these chassis half scrapped, it started to become apparent that they were a little microcoded engine, once running a test program. Very high quality stuff. I wish it was still whole. -- Will From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Nov 25 22:06:52 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 23:06:52 -0500 Subject: Ten Year Rule In-Reply-To: References: <20091125161326.M19134@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <8E20C9F4-ED3F-49DA-A667-2712B5A35E23@neurotica.com> On Nov 25, 2009, at 11:02 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >> Can you imagine what the world would be like if NLS had gotten >> into making >> computers? :-) > > They almost did. I had a big rack of NLS stuff - basically a 1960s > automated test station. There were several of those neato NLS > voltmeters, a printer, and a couple of chassis full of NLS logic > cards. Even with these chassis half scrapped, it started to become > apparent that they were a little microcoded engine, once running a > test program. Very high quality stuff. I wish it was still whole. Umm...remember Kaypro? ;) But I have to ask; do you have any of those voltmeters still kicking around? I've been looking for one for a very long time. The one that sold on eBay about a year ago went for far more than I could afford at the time. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From geoffr at zipcon.net Wed Nov 25 22:54:30 2009 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoffrey Reed) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 20:54:30 -0800 Subject: Ten Year Rule In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 11/25/09 7:17 AM, "Gene Buckle" wrote: > > You may be able to still use one of the later Fido releases on your > Rainbow via FOSSIL driver. Opus might also work via FOSSIL. You can use > tcpser to handle the inbound/outbound interface. I use that program for > the interface to the Apple IIe board I run. The IIe thinks there's a > Hayes Smartmodem on the other end. I don't know if Jim has had time to > integrate my WILLDO ECHO patch to tcpser though. (without it, the telnet > client does it's own echoing which rreessuullttss iinn tthhiiss....)) > > .... > > I just did a bit of digging and yes, you can run Opus on the Rainbow. > The following link has both Opus and the FOSSIL driver for the Rainbow > (ODEC_301.LZH): http://www.sentry.org/~trev/opus/173files.html > > If you head over to http://cd.textfiles.com/kirkscom9409/msdos/bbs/fido/ > you can download Fido v12U configured for FOSSIL use. (F12U_FSL.ZIP) > > If you need any help, just holler. :) > > Telnet to aor.retroarchive.org if you're feeling _really_ nostalgic. > *laughs* > > g. > I ran a 'point' system using opus for several years on a rainbow. 1:343/3.1 'StarShip Inconnu' the creator of the Rainbow FOSSIL driver was the same gent that wrote binkleyterm IIRC. Loved that old beast.... (my rainbow) From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Wed Nov 25 22:56:58 2009 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 20:56:58 -0800 Subject: Ten Year Rule References: <20091125161326.M19134@shell.lmi.net> <8E20C9F4-ED3F-49DA-A667-2712B5A35E23@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4B0E0A9B.D8881108@cs.ubc.ca> Dave McGuire wrote: > > On Nov 25, 2009, at 11:02 PM, William Donzelli wrote: > >> Can you imagine what the world would be like if NLS had gotten > >> into making > >> computers? :-) > > > > They almost did. I had a big rack of NLS stuff - basically a 1960s > > automated test station. There were several of those neato NLS > > voltmeters, a printer, and a couple of chassis full of NLS logic > > cards. Even with these chassis half scrapped, it started to become > > apparent that they were a little microcoded engine, once running a > > test program. Very high quality stuff. I wish it was still whole. > > Umm...remember Kaypro? ;) (I'm guessing Fred was making a joking allusion to Kaypro.) > But I have to ask; do you have any of those voltmeters still > kicking around? I've been looking for one for a very long time. The > one that sold on eBay about a year ago went for far more than I could > afford at the time. One of the early ones (sealed relays for switching) came into the radio museum a couple of years ago. I can't find it, and it didn't disappear into my house, damn it. How much did one go for on ebay? From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Nov 25 23:02:34 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2009 00:02:34 -0500 Subject: Ten Year Rule In-Reply-To: <4B0E0A9B.D8881108@cs.ubc.ca> References: <20091125161326.M19134@shell.lmi.net> <8E20C9F4-ED3F-49DA-A667-2712B5A35E23@neurotica.com> <4B0E0A9B.D8881108@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: >> ? ?Umm...remember Kaypro? ;) > > (I'm guessing Fred was making a joking allusion to Kaypro.) I forgot Kaypro was the NLS brand. > One of the early ones (sealed relays for switching) came into the radio museum > a couple of years ago. I can't find it, and it didn't disappear into my house, > damn it. > > How much did one go for on ebay? They always do well - often well over $100 - so I tend to grab them when I can. The ones out of the test set I described sold a few years ago. -- Will From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Nov 25 23:19:57 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 21:19:57 -0800 (PST) Subject: Ten Year Rule In-Reply-To: <4B0E0A9B.D8881108@cs.ubc.ca> References: <20091125161326.M19134@shell.lmi.net> <8E20C9F4-ED3F-49DA-A667-2712B5A35E23@neurotica.com> <4B0E0A9B.D8881108@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <20091125211717.G27288@shell.lmi.net> > > >> Can you imagine what the world would be like if NLS had gotten into > > >> making computers? :-) > > Umm...remember Kaypro? ;) On Wed, 25 Nov 2009, Brent Hilpert wrote: > (I'm guessing Fred was making a joking allusion to Kaypro.) yes Notice that we are not very good at staying OFF-topic, either. From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Nov 25 23:30:29 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2009 00:30:29 -0500 Subject: Cleaning packs In-Reply-To: <2B8868023CF14C02A8CD95C2F3DBF8B4@tegp4> References: <2B8868023CF14C02A8CD95C2F3DBF8B4@tegp4> Message-ID: > I would not clean any pack that had a lubricated disk surface. Perhaps we could find out exactly what IBM used, then used a suitable (or exact) replacement oil to wash the disks. I would think a clean room would be in order, because even fresh oil will cause anything to stick to it. > ?The good > news is I am pretty sure that lubrication was introduced with the IBM 3340 > (Winchester) The more good news is that I think 3348s were the only packs to use lubrication, and maybe the 3344s, which were just 3348s you could not remove. The more more good news is that 3348s are pretty bulletproof, even when the seal breaks. > so the 2315, 2316, 3336, 3336-11, SMD and their DEC equivalents > (RP0x, etc) were not lubricated. I might as well say that I am looking for IBM 1316, 3336, and 3348 packs - even crashed ones. > If you are real careful you can disassemble and reassemble a servo type disk > pack so long as you are very, very careful not to move (or replace) the disk > containing the servo pattern! If the servo info is on one disk of the set only (I think it is on most, but I could be wrong), it seems to me that the position of the data platters would not matter anymore, as long as nobody cared about the data. Another idea - now with video cameras getting tiny, I would think that one could make an station that could inspect a multiplatter disk without any need to take the pack apart. -- Will -- Will From alec at sensi.org Thu Nov 26 01:34:38 2009 From: alec at sensi.org (Alexander Voropay) Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2009 10:34:38 +0300 Subject: DEC VT100 character generator In-Reply-To: <4B0B11B7.4020304@dunnington.plus.com> References: <4B0B11B7.4020304@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <347d9b1b0911252334m471db37fh6a8035bd97f16d23@mail.gmail.com> 2009/11/24 Pete Turnbull : > A generous reader has given me an > image, which I've uploaded to my website at > http://www.dunnington.u-net.com/public/DECROMs/ JFYI: http://www.sensi.org/~svo/glasstty/ ;) -- -=AV=- From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Thu Nov 26 01:36:11 2009 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 23:36:11 -0800 Subject: Summagraphics Bit Pad One GPIB protocol documentation? Message-ID: <4B0E2FEB.8040301@mail.msu.edu> I'm working on supporting GPIB tablet support for PERQemu (right now it only supports the 3-button Kriz tablet). Anyone have documentation for the protocol used by the GPIB variant of the Summagraphics Bit Pad One? I've found documentation covering the Bit Pad Two (http://www.calcomp.com/files/Bit%20Pad%202%20Tech%20Ref.pdf) , which appears to be RS-232 only. I'm sure the protocols are similar, anyone know for sure? Thanks, Josh From brain at jbrain.com Thu Nov 26 02:30:26 2009 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2009 02:30:26 -0600 Subject: I'm,looking for PDP-11 CPU tests Message-ID: <4B0E3CA2.40105@jbrain.com> I sent the DEC ROM info to the VT220 Font author, and he responded with thanks and also wanted to know if anyone had PDP-11 CPU tests. I noted he might want to join here, but I thought I'd start the ball rolling on his request. Jim -- Jim Brain, Brain Innovations (X) brain at jbrain.com Dabbling in WWW, Embedded Systems, Old CBM computers, and Good Times! Home: http://www.jbrain.com From lproven at gmail.com Thu Nov 26 06:40:00 2009 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2009 12:40:00 +0000 Subject: Ten Year Rule In-Reply-To: <20091125233758.d58b03c1.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <4B0BD328.5010102@gmail.com> <8A515E02-B7B0-49F8-9538-B0EEAF91E6C7@stillhq.com> <4B0BF298.1010401@gmail.com> <6dbe3c380911240735n14776085r4fb431c329075356@mail.gmail.com> <20091125233758.d58b03c1.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <575131af0911260440l5f7cd6f1lf7b6b7e111081ce3@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Nov 25, 2009 at 10:37 PM, Jochen Kunz wrote: > On Tue, 24 Nov 2009 09:35:37 -0600 > Brian Lanning wrote: > >> And which version of windows was it that ran on the dec alpha? > NT. Alpha support was canceled just before the release of XP. NT run on > the PowerStack PReP (PPC) machines from Motorola also. I think the breakdown was: - NT 3.1/3.5 supported x86 (i.e., i386+), Alpha, MIPS; - NT 3.51 added PowerPC; - NT 4.0 supported x86, Alpha, MIPS & PowerPC SP1, but PPC was dropped before SP1, I think; - Win2K officially supported only x86 (requiring a 486 or better) and IA-64 (i.e., Itanium); - XP supported x86-32 (Pentium or better), x86-64 & IA-64. There were unofficial, unreleased builds for other platforms - around the end of the NT3 timeframe, there was a SPARC build, and I have heard of builds of W2K for Alpha, developed internally, basically just to keep the code tree cross-platform-portable clean. By XP, it was cross-platform again, inasmuch as it supported IA-64 and later x86-64, so the Alpha build was dropped even internally. AIUI, anyway. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? LiveJournal/Twitter: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From lproven at gmail.com Thu Nov 26 06:48:15 2009 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2009 12:48:15 +0000 Subject: Ten Year Rule In-Reply-To: <4B0C1784.9070809@snarc.net> References: <4B0BD328.5010102@gmail.com> <4B0C1784.9070809@snarc.net> Message-ID: <575131af0911260448r594143ag253782cd3f1056b5@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Nov 24, 2009 at 5:27 PM, Evan Koblentz wrote: > >> I was thinking recently, and I know that the general threshold for >> discussion on this list is ten years, but is that enough? > > Know what really grates on me? ?When someone asks such a STUPID question. > > How can anyone in his right mind seriously think, in 2009, that the > so-called "ten year rule" still applies here? ?(Put another way, dude, where > have you been for the past few years!? ?Have you not noticed that a., this > has been discussed to death, and b., it's incredibly freaking obvious that > Windows Friggin' 98 is not frigging on-topic here!?!?!?) > > The so-called ten-year-rule, and anyone who insanely thinks the "rule" > itself is not obsolete, can kiss my ass. ?Thank you, come again. > > What's on-topic: Almost anything pre-186, and a few non-mainstream > exceptions after that. > > I shall now end my reply with a highly sophisticated opinion: > > Duh! Well, here's an idle suggestion: How about a separate list for vintage PCs (possibly and Macs, but LowEndMac.com runs some pretty good lists for those, so I don't see the need.) I find some of the 1980s PC kit pretty interesting - a profusion of buses, some quite weird; lots of odd graphics standards; the convolutions necessary to keep enough RAM free on 386s under DOS; Windows when it was small and fast, DESQview and DR-GEM; odd OSs such as CCP/M, C/DOS, DOS+, Xenix and GeoWorks Ensemble; the gorgeous clean design of IBM PS/2 machines and their ridiculous pricetags. All sorts of fun (FSVO "fun") and the hardware is getting very rare and hard to find these days. 486s are going that way fast, too. Pentium boxes are still new enough that some poor buggers use them daily, so that's not "classic". We have ClassicCmpTalk and ClassicCmpTech - how about ClassicPCTalk or ClassicCmpX86? For people for whom it's of no interest, they can just resign... -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? LiveJournal/Twitter: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From ggs at shiresoft.com Thu Nov 26 09:50:22 2009 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2009 07:50:22 -0800 Subject: I'm,looking for PDP-11 CPU tests In-Reply-To: <4B0E3CA2.40105@jbrain.com> References: <4B0E3CA2.40105@jbrain.com> Message-ID: Look for at the various XXDP images. It will also depend upon what CPU he has. TTFN - Guy On Nov 26, 2009, at 12:30 AM, Jim Brain wrote: > I sent the DEC ROM info to the VT220 Font author, and he responded > with thanks and also wanted to know if anyone had PDP-11 CPU tests. > > I noted he might want to join here, but I thought I'd start the ball > rolling on his request. > > Jim > > -- > Jim Brain, Brain Innovations (X) > brain at jbrain.com Dabbling in WWW, Embedded Systems, Old CBM > computers, and Good Times! Home: http://www.jbrain.com > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Nov 26 12:44:29 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2009 18:44:29 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Cleaning packs In-Reply-To: <04f801ca6e24$5302f060$0301a8c0@Alexandre> from "Alexandre Souza - Listas" at Nov 25, 9 08:05:51 pm Message-ID: > > >> This is something you should do in everything :) > > Agreed. But the DEC RK05 manual is the only one I've seen that > > specifically tells you to do it. > > Some "technics" should be teach (or are, but no one remembers it) in > basic school: > - Put one hand in back while messing with >24V circuits I'd say a slightly high voltage than that. But certainly for mains, or CRT voltages or... And of course never hold the chassis in one hand while pokeing about with the other. If you do, then if you happen to touch an high voltage point the current _will_ take the most dangerous path it can. > - Turning back the screw until you feels a "bump" not to cross-thread > the hole Particularly for self-tapping screws and threaded things that are large-diameter compared to the pitch (e.g. locking rings in optical systems) Related to that, if you have a number of screws holding something down, fit and tighten them in a diagonal pattern. Many older books descried this as ;ike torquing down the cylinder head on an engine' but I guess few people have done that these days. This is so ingraained in me that I even do it for things like the covers on plastic project boxes. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Nov 26 12:53:02 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2009 18:53:02 +0000 (GMT) Subject: VT78/MR78/OS78 (was Re: Vintage Computer Forum) In-Reply-To: <051601ca6e27$408a3620$0301a8c0@Alexandre> from "Alexandre Souza - Listas" at Nov 25, 9 08:20:52 pm Message-ID: > > >> I'd do that with a microcontroller, an EPROM and like :) Nice project > >> :D > > No microcontroller required - it's already just a handful of TTL chips. > > Why use a handful of ttl chips if I can do the same with a pair? :o) Firstly I object to this idea that every digital project has to include a microcontrolelr (in fact that's why I stopped reading Circuit Cellar magazine!'. Yes, microcontrollers are very usedul, and I use them myself when I consider them to be appropraite. But not for everything Now lets look at this device. From what I understand it has to step through the contents of an external EPROM under the control of some signals from the VT78. The outputs of the EPROM are fed back to the VT78 (possily after going through a buffer). So the microcontroller would replace the address counter and handshake logic. You need a microcontroller with a fair number of I/O pins for that, proaly a 8751 or something. If you don't have a programmer for that, you need to hanf an EPROM off it containing the firmware (which then means an address latch) But even if you do, it's a 40 pin chip to wire up. Five TTL chips are peoably only twice as many pins to wire, if that.. Then there's the thign that I can wire pins (and design TTL circuits) a lot faster than I can write microcontroller firmware. Period. Of course once I've written the firmware, I can program aas many microocontrollers as a I want, but this is hardly going to e a large-volume project. I think I could wire up the necessary TTL chips in less time that it would take me to type-in read-written source code, assembly it and program it into a microcontroller. -tony From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Nov 26 12:56:02 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2009 13:56:02 -0500 Subject: Cleaning packs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Nov 26, 2009, at 1:44 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > This is so ingraained in me that I even do it for things like the > covers > on plastic project boxes. I'm horrified to think that there are people who *don't* do that. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Nov 26 13:00:07 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2009 19:00:07 +0000 (GMT) Subject: VT78/MR78/OS78 (was Re: Vintage Computer Forum) In-Reply-To: <056701ca6e2a$c20bb770$0301a8c0@Alexandre> from "Alexandre Souza - Listas" at Nov 25, 9 08:53:28 pm Message-ID: > > Whatever, I do like to design with microcontrollers :) Call me lazy! :oD A few years ago, an alectronics shop over here was selling off some educational rootics kits. One was designed in England (and was a thing that reversied if it umped into something), another 2 were Far-Eastern and did much the same thing, except that they used a microphone to detect sound or impact, rather than a microswitch to detect impact only. The English one came as a pre-assembled PCB containing a PIC microcontroller and a motor driver IC. A coupleof pre-assembled motor/gearox units. And the instructions were just to screw the bits to the baseplate and connect the wires. No explanation of how it works or what you were doing. IMHO, Educational value : 0 The 2 Far-Eastern kits came as a bare PCB, a bag of components, a back og gears and axles, and so on. You had to assemble everything. And the instructions explained what the various bits did and why (OK, the explanations were at a simple level, but still fairly accurate). And there was no pre-programmed microcontroller. In fact no ICs at all. Just 10 discrete transsitors, and assocaited passives (the 2 kits, although quite different mechancially, were very similar electroncially). Educational value : Lots. And I find 10 transistors to be a lot more elegant a design than the thousands of transistos in a microcontroller... -tony > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Nov 26 13:08:01 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2009 19:08:01 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Ten Year Rule In-Reply-To: <20091125161326.M19134@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Nov 25, 9 04:27:04 pm Message-ID: > It would not have been adequate for aligning floppy drives. > I have been told that that calls for dual-trace and 20MHz or higher. Is > that correct? Only because that's about the loswst spec you'll find in a modern 'scope. I sucessfully aligned a 3.5" dirve using a very cheap handheld digital 'scope (IIRC 500k samples/second, it did an aliasing trick to look at _repetitive_ wwaveforms up to 5MHz). ANd just one trace). > > Eventually, I gave it to somebody who needed it more than I did, and I got > myself a used NLS 215. Still not enough for floppy drive alignment. But Did you actually try to align a floppy drive with it? Actually, if you want to align floppy drives (and nothing else), I would try to find a thing called a 'Microtest'. It's a box containing an ADC and a microcontorller that links to a PC serial port (_Any_ PC with a floppy controller and a serial port, I think you need 256k RAM and any display adapter, even MDA). You link up the drive under test as drive B on the PC, and run the software that comes with the microtest. Then select the drive from the menu (and there's every one that _I've_ ever wanted to work on), it drwas a picture of the drive PCB (using IBM line-drawing characters) and tells you where to conenct 5 clip-leads from the ADC box. Then put in a standard analogue alingment disk and it will tell you how far off-track you are, if the track 0 sensor is correctly positioned, and so on. Of course I need a 'scope for lots of other things, but this little toy really is fun... > lots of fun for other miscellaneous stuff. Eventually, I sold it at VCF. > Even I miss having a scope. > > > Can you imagine what the world would be like if NLS had gotten into making > computers? :-) They'd probably grow faster than they could manage, and I assume that is very much tongue-in-cheek... -tony From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Thu Nov 26 14:05:32 2009 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2009 17:05:32 -0300 Subject: Cleaning packs References: Message-ID: <0b8b01ca6ed4$d5783ef0$0301a8c0@Alexandre> > I'm horrified to think that there are people who *don't* do that. Dave, people who know "the works" are so uncommon that you'd be surprised. I still believe the Radio Amateurs' Handbook should be used on schools... From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Nov 26 13:39:22 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2009 11:39:22 -0800 (PST) Subject: Ten Year Rule In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20091126112118.E51538@shell.lmi.net> > > I have been told that that calls for dual-trace and 20MHz or higher. Is > > that correct? On Thu, 26 Nov 2009, Tony Duell wrote: > Only because that's about the loswst spec you'll find in a modern 'scope. > > > > Eventually, I gave it to somebody who needed it more than I did, and I got > > myself a used NLS 215. Still not enough for floppy drive alignment. But > > Did you actually try to align a floppy drive with it? I did try a number of times, but my lack of expertise (TOTAL IGNORANCE of what I was doing) got in the way, and I trusted the advice of "experts". But, it was still very useful and fun. I used both scopes for automotive diagnosis. For example, it isn't very easy to find out that the problem with an alternator ("just replace the whole thing!") was a diode (three phase rectification) without a scope. > Actually, if you want to align floppy drives (and nothing else), I would > try to find a thing called a 'Microtest'. It's a box containing an ADC > and a microcontorller that links to a PC serial port (_Any_ PC with a > floppy controller and a serial port, I think you need 256k RAM and any > display adapter, even MDA). You link up the drive under test as drive B > on the PC, and run the software that comes with the microtest. Then > select the drive from the menu (and there's every one that _I've_ ever > wanted to work on), it drwas a picture of the drive PCB (using IBM > line-drawing characters) and tells you where to conenct 5 clip-leads from > the ADC box. Then put in a standard analogue alingment disk and it will > tell you how far off-track you are, if the track 0 sensor is correctly > positioned, and so on. That sounds sweet, and likely out of my price range. I liked using the Dysan Digital Diagnostic Disk, and wrote some code for additional unsupported machines, but I could never shake the feeling that I wasn't able to do as good a job as an analog alignment. > > Can you imagine what the world would be like if NLS had gotten into making > > computers? :-) They'd probably grow faster than they could manage, and > I assume that is very much tongue-in-cheek... Completely. I even stuck an emoticon in there in case anybody didn't get it! In college, I wanted to learn electronics, to design a few toys with integrated circuits, and understand the computer internals, but was always busy with other stuff, and the college required multiple semesters of TUBE electronics before getting to transistors, and only got to ICs in the final "advanced topics" course. What an idiot I was. NOW where can I find a fun course for playing with tubes ("valves"?) -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Nov 26 13:43:55 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2009 19:43:55 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Summagraphics Bit Pad One GPIB protocol documentation? In-Reply-To: <4B0E2FEB.8040301@mail.msu.edu> from "Josh Dersch" at Nov 25, 9 11:36:11 pm Message-ID: > > I'm working on supporting GPIB tablet support for PERQemu (right now it > only supports the 3-button Kriz tablet). Anyone have documentation for > the protocol used by the GPIB variant of the Summagraphics Bit Pad One? Not suprisingly (as a PERQ-fanatic :-)) I have the excellent user manual for the Bit Pad 1, which contains full schematics and protocol information. From waht I remember, the BP1 came in RS232 and GPIB versions, and the data protocol was the same. If you get no other replies I'll dig out the manual and type it up. -tony From cclist at sydex.com Thu Nov 26 13:58:31 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2009 11:58:31 -0800 Subject: VT78/MR78/OS78 (was Re: Vintage Computer Forum) In-Reply-To: References: <051601ca6e27$408a3620$0301a8c0@Alexandre> from "Alexandre Souza - Listas" at Nov 25, 9 08:20:52 pm, Message-ID: <4B0E6D67.12603.1BA7EDE@cclist.sydex.com> On 26 Nov 2009 at 18:53, Tony Duell wrote: > Then there's the thign that I can wire pins (and design TTL circuits) > a lot faster than I can write microcontroller firmware. Period. Of > course once I've written the firmware, I can program aas many > microocontrollers as a I want, but this is hardly going to e a > large-volume project. > > I think I could wire up the necessary TTL chips in less time that it > would take me to type-in read-written source code, assembly it and > program it into a microcontroller. The right tool for the task. Microcontrollers have the advantage that they're inexpensive and take up little real estate. Similarly, CPLDs and FPGAs can wield a tremendous bang-for-the-buck. If you don't like programming (assembler, C, Verilog or VHDL), that's your preference. I'm constantly being surprised at what someone has done with a $2 microcontroller and little else. Some of the little microcontrollers sport speeds that would give me indigestion implementing in SSI TTL or even ECL. Yes, it's true that you can do things with SSI or discretes--and I still do occasionally. But increasingly, I'm using one or more microcontrollers and/or programmable logic to do what I want--at least in the digital world. A piece of well-written code can be just as elegant and satisfying as a good circuit design. --Chuck From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Nov 26 14:10:27 2009 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2009 13:10:27 -0700 Subject: VT78/MR78/OS78 (was Re: Vintage Computer Forum) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B0EE0B3.6050206@jetnet.ab.ca> Tony Duell wrote: > The 2 Far-Eastern kits came as a bare PCB, a bag of components, a back og > gears and axles, and so on. You had to assemble everything. And the > instructions explained what the various bits did and why (OK, the > explanations were at a simple level, but still fairly accurate). And > there was no pre-programmed microcontroller. In fact no ICs at all. Just > 10 discrete transsitors, and assocaited passives (the 2 kits, although > quite different mechancially, were very similar electroncially). > Educational value : Lots. > > And I find 10 transistors to be a lot more elegant a design than the > thousands of transistos in a microcontroller... ... and one time two tubes did all your work @ 45 volts. :) > -tony > > > > > > From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Nov 26 14:11:38 2009 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2009 13:11:38 -0700 Subject: Cleaning packs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B0EE0FA.6040209@jetnet.ab.ca> Dave McGuire wrote: > On Nov 26, 2009, at 1:44 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> This is so ingraained in me that I even do it for things like the covers >> on plastic project boxes. > > I'm horrified to think that there are people who *don't* do that. > > -Dave > Whispers *hot glue* after hiding all the TAR and Feathers. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Nov 26 14:39:46 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2009 20:39:46 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Ten Year Rule In-Reply-To: <20091126112118.E51538@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Nov 26, 9 11:39:22 am Message-ID: > But, it was still very useful and fun. I used both scopes for automotive > diagnosis. For example, it isn't very easy to find out that the problem > with an alternator ("just replace the whole thing!") was a diode (three > phase rectification) without a scope. Hmmm.. I think last time I had to diagnose an alternator fault, I desoldered the 3 stator leads from the diode array (9 diodes making a 3-phase bride rectifier with 2 positive outputs, one to the battery and one to the regulator/field circuit) and then tested the diodes with an ohmmeter. Removing the stator windings elimnated sneak paths through those (and indicentally let me use a 'megger' on the stator to check the insulation, somethinbg I wouldn't risk with the diodes connected). Of course if a diode had been shorted, it would have probably caused incorrect tests on the some of the otehrs, but if a diode was shorted I'd have to tear the recifier pack apaart anyway. Incidentally, (and this is more off-topic than usual), the Land Rover series 3 workshop manual has a good _component level_ description of the regulator circuit. > > Actually, if you want to align floppy drives (and nothing else), I would > > try to find a thing called a 'Microtest'. It's a box containing an ADC > > and a microcontorller that links to a PC serial port (_Any_ PC with a > > floppy controller and a serial port, I think you need 256k RAM and any > > display adapter, even MDA). You link up the drive under test as drive B > > on the PC, and run the software that comes with the microtest. Then > > select the drive from the menu (and there's every one that _I've_ ever > > wanted to work on), it drwas a picture of the drive PCB (using IBM > > line-drawing characters) and tells you where to conenct 5 clip-leads from > > the ADC box. Then put in a standard analogue alingment disk and it will > > tell you how far off-track you are, if the track 0 sensor is correctly > > positioned, and so on. > > That sounds sweet, and likely out of my price range. When new, it was very expensive. I was lucky enough to be given one 'since you're the last person alive who actually repairs floppy drives'. I then modified an Amstrad PPC640 laptop by removing the non-original second drive and replacing it with a DC37 connector on a blanking plate so I could cable up my drive-under-test to the Amstrad. As I said the Microtest software runs on _any_ IBM compatbile, even a 5150. I've not seen a Microtest on E-bay ever, but then I've not looked for one. If one did turn up it would be small enough to ship, and doesn't depend on amins voltage or frequency (the microcontroller box draws power from the handshake lines on the serial port). > > I liked using the Dysan Digital Diagnostic Disk, and wrote some code for > additional unsupported machines, but I could never shake the feeling that > I wasn't able to do as good a job as an analog alignment. That's one good thing about the Microtest, it uses an analogue alignment disk. > In college, I wanted to learn electronics, to design a few toys with > integrated circuits, and understand the computer internals, but was always I did juust that. Of course it had nothing to do with my course, but I found invenstigating the Philips P850 back in my room to be a lot more interesting that quantum mechnaics. Probably explains why I nearly failed my degree... > busy with other stuff, and the college required multiple semesters of TUBE > electronics before getting to transistors, and only got to ICs in the > final "advanced topics" course. Learning about valves (or at least bipolar trasnsitors and FETs) first is proabably not a bad idea. Valves and FETs behave remaarkably similarly, BTW. > > What an idiot I was. NOW where can I find a fun course for playing with > tubes ("valves"?) Hmmm.. For analouge (radio) use there was at least one such course in Practical Wireless magazine in the 1950s (I mention this because I have the issues somewhere). But I don't recomemnf it. The valve heater supply came from a transformer, the HT (B+) came by half-wave rectifyuing the mains. Which meant the metal chassis (uncased, this was an experimental course after all) was connected to one sides of the mains. I would hope neutral, but... And some of the simpler radios used headphones connected in the anode circuit of a valve. Having a pair of headphones efectively connected to the live side of the mains is too close to being an electric chair for my liking. But seriously, the best way to learn about valves is to p[ay with them. Small valves are remarkaly forgiving of wiring errors (provided you don't connect the B supply to the heaters!). There's a series of modern books called the 'Impoverished Radio Experimentor' which covers making various valve radios (including a superhet) using easy-to-dind components. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Nov 26 14:52:39 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2009 20:52:39 +0000 (GMT) Subject: VT78/MR78/OS78 (was Re: Vintage Computer Forum) In-Reply-To: <4B0E6D67.12603.1BA7EDE@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Nov 26, 9 11:58:31 am Message-ID: > > On 26 Nov 2009 at 18:53, Tony Duell wrote: > > > Then there's the thign that I can wire pins (and design TTL circuits) > > a lot faster than I can write microcontroller firmware. Period. Of > > course once I've written the firmware, I can program aas many > > microocontrollers as a I want, but this is hardly going to e a > > large-volume project. > > > > I think I could wire up the necessary TTL chips in less time that it > > would take me to type-in read-written source code, assembly it and > > program it into a microcontroller. > > The right tool for the task. Very much so. > > Microcontrollers have the advantage that they're inexpensive and take > up little real estate. Similarly, CPLDs and FPGAs can wield a For one-off projects the overall size of the PCB or stripoard is not that important. > tremendous bang-for-the-buck. If you don't like programming > (assembler, C, Verilog or VHDL), that's your preference. I'm Well, I must admit that 'my favourite language is solder' :-) > constantly being surprised at what someone has done with a $2 > microcontroller and little else. Some of the little microcontrollers > sport speeds that would give me indigestion implementing in SSI TTL > or even ECL. The problem comes when you want to run external (to the microcontroller) stuff at those speeds. You then _have_ to design the whole thing as a high-speed digital circuit, and an awful lot of programmers don't know how to do that. I've seen the resultant mess all too often... > > Yes, it's true that you can do things with SSI or discretes--and I > still do occasionally. But increasingly, I'm using one or more > microcontrollers and/or programmable logic to do what I want--at > least in the digital world. A piece of well-written code can be just > as elegant and satisfying as a good circuit design. PErhaps it's becuase I think at a very low level al lthe time, but I tend to cosider the total number of transistors (or gates) as a measure of complexity/elegance, not the number of individual packages I have to solder to the PCB. This does not mean I don't use microcontrollers. Of course I do. In front of me there's a thing I built that takes in 8 bit parallel data and outputs a string of pulses (it actually simulates the output of a barcode reader 'wand' [1]). To do that in TTL would be a lot of chips. But the comples stuff fits in an 18 pin PIC, there's a little glue logic to ensure the Cnetronics interface timing is correct under all conditions. The right tool for the job. Stiting on top of it is an interface box to link 2 different parallel ports together. It countains 4 or 5 TTL chips. To do it in a microcotnroller would IMHO be the wrong thing to do. It would be slower (although that might not matter) and you'd still keep a couple of the TTL chips which are just uffers from one port to the other. The result would be aout the same component count, but more complex, harder to debug, and piossibly less reliale (my experience is that while a single complex chip is possibly more reliable than the many chips it could replace, a complex chip is less relaile than a simple chip. AndI would think a PIC would be less reliable than the '74 and '00 that it would replace on this board). [1] Actually to download software from a PC into an HP41. I have a modified HP82153 wand with an optoisolator wired to the wand output signal inside the HP41 module. This box connects to the LED side of the optoisolator, the PC sends data to it, and the HP41 thinks somoody has run the wand along a line of barcode. And before somebody tells me to get an HPIL module, I have one, OK... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Nov 26 14:56:02 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2009 20:56:02 +0000 (GMT) Subject: VT78/MR78/OS78 (was Re: Vintage Computer Forum) In-Reply-To: <4B0EE0B3.6050206@jetnet.ab.ca> from "Ben" at Nov 26, 9 01:10:27 pm Message-ID: > > Tony Duell wrote: > > > The 2 Far-Eastern kits came as a bare PCB, a bag of components, a back og > > gears and axles, and so on. You had to assemble everything. And the > > instructions explained what the various bits did and why (OK, the > > explanations were at a simple level, but still fairly accurate). And > > there was no pre-programmed microcontroller. In fact no ICs at all. Just > > 10 discrete transsitors, and assocaited passives (the 2 kits, although > > quite different mechancially, were very similar electroncially). > > Educational value : Lots. > > > > And I find 10 transistors to be a lot more elegant a design than the > > thousands of transistos in a microcontroller... > > ... and one time two tubes did all your work @ 45 volts. :) I have a Philips book called 'Practical Robot Circuits' which partly covers making a robotic 'dog' with rather more capabilites using _valves_. Lots of them., I can't rememebr what valaves they are, but I can rem,emeber they were 1.5 filament (directly heated) B7G based ones (7 pin miniatures), and not the common ones. IIRC things like DF92 (DF91 and DF96 are common pentodes in that series, the DF92 is not). It would be fun to build, though... -tony From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Thu Nov 26 16:02:34 2009 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2009 19:02:34 -0300 Subject: Ten Year Rule References: Message-ID: <0c2601ca6ee4$8f1c8410$0301a8c0@Alexandre> >> What an idiot I was. NOW where can I find a fun course for playing with >> tubes ("valves"?) ARRL Radio Amateurs' Handbook :o) Preferably an old one :o) From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Nov 26 15:43:52 2009 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2009 13:43:52 -0800 Subject: Summagraphics Bit Pad One GPIB protocol documentation? In-Reply-To: <4B0E2FEB.8040301@mail.msu.edu> References: <4B0E2FEB.8040301@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <4B0EF698.9080207@bitsavers.org> Josh Dersch wrote: > I'm working on supporting GPIB tablet support for PERQemu (right now it > only supports the 3-button Kriz tablet). Anyone have documentation for > the protocol used by the GPIB variant of the Summagraphics Bit Pad One? > user's manual up now under http://bitsavers.org/pdf/sumagraphics From cclist at sydex.com Thu Nov 26 16:15:53 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2009 14:15:53 -0800 Subject: VT78/MR78/OS78 (was Re: Vintage Computer Forum) In-Reply-To: References: <4B0E6D67.12603.1BA7EDE@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Nov 26, 9 11:58:31 am, Message-ID: <4B0E8D99.19306.2384347@cclist.sydex.com> On 26 Nov 2009 at 20:52, Tony Duell wrote: > AndI would think a PIC would be less reliable than the '74 and > '00 that it would replace on this board). I'm not sure about that--PICs definitely use less power than traditional TTL and so probably don't have the issues with heat. They also have smaller features, so perhaps the current density is similar. There's a TI demo of a couple of their 430 uCs that demonstrates sleep-mode current consumption of 0.4 uA. That would be hard to match with any bipolar logic family. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Thu Nov 26 16:20:14 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2009 14:20:14 -0800 Subject: Ten Year Rule In-Reply-To: <0c2601ca6ee4$8f1c8410$0301a8c0@Alexandre> References: , <0c2601ca6ee4$8f1c8410$0301a8c0@Alexandre> Message-ID: <4B0E8E9E.7987.23C3D87@cclist.sydex.com> On 26 Nov 2009 at 19:02, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > >> What an idiot I was. NOW where can I find a fun course for playing > >> with tubes ("valves"?) > > ARRL Radio Amateurs' Handbook :o) Preferably an old one :o) My vote goes for the old RCA "Radiotron Designer's Handbook" aka "the big thick red book". More about real-world engineering using tubes than you'll find in any ARRL Handbook. Considerably over 1000 pages and can be found in various editions and forms all over the net. --Chuck From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Thu Nov 26 17:21:52 2009 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2009 15:21:52 -0800 Subject: Summagraphics Bit Pad One GPIB protocol documentation? In-Reply-To: <4B0EF698.9080207@bitsavers.org> References: <4B0E2FEB.8040301@mail.msu.edu> <4B0EF698.9080207@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <59824A59-5261-4D9B-BD68-5C11E0FCA2BE@mail.msu.edu> On Nov 26, 2009, at 1:43 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > Josh Dersch wrote: >> I'm working on supporting GPIB tablet support for PERQemu (right >> now it only supports the 3-button Kriz tablet). Anyone have >> documentation for the protocol used by the GPIB variant of the >> Summagraphics Bit Pad One? > > user's manual up now under > http://bitsavers.org/pdf/sumagraphics > > Awesome, thanks as always, Al! Josh From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Thu Nov 26 20:42:14 2009 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2009 21:42:14 -0500 Subject: DEC VT100 character generator In-Reply-To: <347d9b1b0911252334m471db37fh6a8035bd97f16d23@mail.gmail.com> References: <4B0B11B7.4020304@dunnington.plus.com> <347d9b1b0911252334m471db37fh6a8035bd97f16d23@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B0F3C86.8030103@compsys.to> >Alexander Voropay wrote: >2009/11/24 Pete Turnbull : > > >>A generous reader has given me an >>image, which I've uploaded to my website at >>http://www.dunnington.u-net.com/public/DECROMs/ >> >> > >JFYI: http://www.sensi.org/~svo/glasstty/ > I have a 2716 EPROM which can be placed into the DEC VT100 to be used for the extra set of characters. Since I no longer have an EPROM blower or reader, how can this be transferred? Would the image for the EPROM even be useful? The extra characters are used to produce a ladder diagram for the ? controllers. There is also a program available for the VERY specialized hardware which made up the ? controller which was called an OH180 and used by Ontario Hydro in the 1980s. I can probably locate one of my VT100s which still has the EPROM Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Thu Nov 26 21:46:11 2009 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2009 19:46:11 -0800 Subject: Summagraphics Bit Pad One GPIB protocol documentation? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B0F4B83.6090402@mail.msu.edu> Tony Duell wrote: >> I'm working on supporting GPIB tablet support for PERQemu (right now it >> only supports the 3-button Kriz tablet). Anyone have documentation for >> the protocol used by the GPIB variant of the Summagraphics Bit Pad One? >> > > Not suprisingly (as a PERQ-fanatic :-)) I have the excellent user manual > for the Bit Pad 1, which contains full schematics and protocol > information. From waht I remember, the BP1 came in RS232 and GPIB > versions, and the data protocol was the same. > > If you get no other replies I'll dig out the manual and type it up. > > -tony > > Thanks -- looks like Al already has it scanned, so there's no need to go through the trouble of transcribing it for me. Thanks for the offer, though. Looks like a pretty simple protocol, should be easy to get going, at least once I work out the subtleties of GPIB... (I almost have Accent booting... so very close...) Josh From fjk at eircom.net Tue Nov 24 08:23:00 2009 From: fjk at eircom.net (Francis Kirby) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 14:23:00 -0000 Subject: IBM PC 5150 power supply? Message-ID: <002801ca6d11$a0a37920$e1ea6b60$@net> I'm looking for a IBM PC/ XT power supply for European voltages, 220 -240 V at 50Hz. I have three part numbers but can't find specs for them: 5150438 5150439 6323357 From mark.kahrs at gmail.com Tue Nov 24 11:29:42 2009 From: mark.kahrs at gmail.com (Mark Kahrs) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 12:29:42 -0500 Subject: Emulex Q bus SCSI board Message-ID: <67abbca30911240929r1ee4ae9eqcd0ece54f3c238ae@mail.gmail.com> Does anyone have any info on this board? It's an S-box board with number QS1010402. Uses Emulex custom LSI all over the place. From csquared3 at tx.rr.com Tue Nov 24 21:11:57 2009 From: csquared3 at tx.rr.com (CSquared) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 21:11:57 -0600 Subject: Switches & Blinky Light Front Panel for PC? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B0CA07D.90702@tx.rr.com> Tony Duell wrote: >> On Tue, Nov 24, 2009 at 06:59:28AM -0800, Rick Bensene wrote: >>> OK, so this might break the ten year rule, but I'm curious. >>> >>> Has anyone ever built a switches and lights front panel for a PC? >> Sort of: >> >> http://www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum/showthread.php?t=17451 >> >> It is a PCjr and it looks really neat, there is a link to a youtube clip >> there as well. > > I seem to rememebr it's easier to do this on a PCjr than on a PC (ISA > bus). The reason is that the PCjr doesn't have a DMA controller, but had > the signals brought out to the expansion connector to allow one to be > added. And those signals, of course, include the bus request and grant > lines so the DMA cotnroller can take over the bus from the CPU. Which is > exactly what you need to add a hardware frontpanel (at least to access > memory and I/O devices). > > I think most 16 bit ISA ssytems have a signal on the bus slots which lets > you do that, but I will have to check the 5170 techref... > > -tony > Wow, how cool is that. The surround looks great too. Later, Charlie C. From mark.kahrs at gmail.com Tue Nov 24 13:33:02 2009 From: mark.kahrs at gmail.com (Mark Kahrs) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 14:33:02 -0500 Subject: Ancient 3com switch Message-ID: <67abbca30911241133t6e9d4dedq3e3b63438f9fe823@mail.gmail.com> I don't know if the 10 year rule applies here, but I have a old 3com switch (3c3500) that I'd like to use. Problem is that the previous administrator was competent and changed all the passwords. So, how should I reset this unit? Mind you, there is a socketed flash SIMM ... Any ideas? There's also a bad SRAM chip, but that's another kettle of fish. From csquared3 at tx.rr.com Tue Nov 24 21:28:26 2009 From: csquared3 at tx.rr.com (CSquared) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 21:28:26 -0600 Subject: Ten Year Rule In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B0CA45A.8030207@tx.rr.com> Tony Duell wrote: >> I'd take that back perhaps another 10 years to 1973. It's a little >> boring seeing systems with fixed power-of-two word lengths, 8-bit >> characters and predictable instruction sets, all implemented with MOS >> transistors. > > I have a a few machines from the early 1980s with 20 bit word length (so > not a power of 2), variable instruciton set (the microcode is loaded from > disk at power-on), and the CPU is mostly made from bipolar ICs. OK, they > do use 8-bit characters. > > -tony > Heh, you remind me of the computer I had on my back driveway for several months quite a few years ago with a 23 bit word length. I doubt it was complete, and it was part of an ill advised joint venture so the other guy eventually took most of it away. (My wife was quite happy to see it all go.) I did keep the programmer's quick reference card, though I don't know where it is at the moment. I recall a fair amount of the wiring was miniature coax, and it was a core machine. I suspect very few were ever built. Wish now I'd kept the core stack at least. I think I do still have the Selectric typewriter with a solenoid and contacts kludge on the bottom that served as the console device - it was not an I/O Selectric. Later, Charlie C. From newsound at tds.net Wed Nov 25 23:04:50 2009 From: newsound at tds.net (Jim Arrington) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 23:04:50 -0600 Subject: Neat find: Maxx Steele Robot Message-ID: would you be willing to sell your Maxx Steele Robot? From djg at pdp8online.com Thu Nov 26 20:34:20 2009 From: djg at pdp8online.com (David Gesswein) Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2009 21:34:20 -0500 Subject: VT78/MR78/OS78 (was Re: Vintage Computer Forum) Message-ID: <200911270234.nAR2YKK02374@h-68-165-246-86.mclnva23.covad.net> >After years of looking, thanks to a tip from this list, > Did it wander further? My postings were to pdp8lovers and alt.sys.pdp8 >Are there any ROM dumps of the MR-78 anywhere? > Not that I know of. I have a MR78-BD on mine. The print set doesn't list what that version does. I probably can dump it if its different from yours. >I've seen OS/278 from the DECUS collection. I must not be looking >into the right places for OS/78. > OS78 images of the disks that came with my VT78 are here http://www.pdp8online.com/images/images/os8.shtml The R command not working is probably the set OS8/VT78 stuff they added. Also WPS78 here http://www.pdp8online.com/ftp/images/wps/ And COS for the VT78 http://www.pdp8online.com/ftp/images/cos/ The closest source I know of is OS78 V4 which was for the DECmate I http://www.ibiblio.org/pub/academic/computer-science/history/pdp-8/os8/ Enjoy your new toy. From csquared3 at tx.rr.com Thu Nov 26 23:45:16 2009 From: csquared3 at tx.rr.com (CSquared) Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2009 23:45:16 -0600 Subject: Ten Year Rule In-Reply-To: <20091126112118.E51538@shell.lmi.net> References: <20091126112118.E51538@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4B0F676C.9000908@tx.rr.com> Fred Cisin wrote: > > > In college, I wanted to learn electronics, to design a few toys with > integrated circuits, and understand the computer internals, but was always > busy with other stuff, and the college required multiple semesters of TUBE > electronics before getting to transistors, and only got to ICs in the > final "advanced topics" course. > > What an idiot I was. NOW where can I find a fun course for playing with > tubes ("valves"?) > > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com > How about this resource? http://mysite.du.edu/~etuttle/electron/elect27.htm I just recently found it and think it is marvelous. I thought I got it from someone here, but maybe not. If you go to J. B. Calvert's higher level page, there are links to info on all sorts of subjects including the tube stuff. http://mysite.du.edu/~jcalvert/index.htm You can get to his tube stuff from there as well via the "Engineering and Technology" link. Later, Charlie C. From peter.hicks at poggs.co.uk Fri Nov 27 09:31:19 2009 From: peter.hicks at poggs.co.uk (Peter Hicks) Date: Fri, 27 Nov 2009 15:31:19 +0000 Subject: Ancient 3com switch In-Reply-To: <67abbca30911241133t6e9d4dedq3e3b63438f9fe823@mail.gmail.com> References: <67abbca30911241133t6e9d4dedq3e3b63438f9fe823@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20091127153119.GB32134@chalkfarm.man1.poggs.net> Hi Mark On Tue, Nov 24, 2009 at 02:33:02PM -0500, Mark Kahrs wrote: > I don't know if the 10 year rule applies here, but I have a old 3com > switch (3c3500) that I'd like to use. Problem is that the previous > administrator was competent and changed all the passwords. So, how should > I reset this unit? Mind you, there is a socketed flash SIMM > ... Any ideas? There's also a bad SRAM chip, but that's another > kettle of fish. Is it a CoreBuilder 3500? IIRC, there was a backdoor password that gave you a level of access above the normal. I can't remember what it is at the moment, but I will have a dig around and see if I still have the old email. Regards, Peter From pat at computer-refuge.org Fri Nov 27 11:13:34 2009 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Fri, 27 Nov 2009 12:13:34 -0500 Subject: Emulex Q bus SCSI board In-Reply-To: <67abbca30911240929r1ee4ae9eqcd0ece54f3c238ae@mail.gmail.com> References: <67abbca30911240929r1ee4ae9eqcd0ece54f3c238ae@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200911271213.34697.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Tuesday 24 November 2009, Mark Kahrs wrote: > Does anyone have any info on this board? It's an S-box board with > number QS1010402. Uses Emulex custom LSI all over the place. > Try googleing for "emulex QS10". Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri Nov 27 11:23:52 2009 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Fri, 27 Nov 2009 09:23:52 -0800 (PST) Subject: Fido ... (was Ten Year Rule) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 25 Nov 2009, Geoffrey Reed wrote: >> > I ran a 'point' system using opus for several years on a rainbow. 1:343/3.1 > 'StarShip Inconnu' the creator of the Rainbow FOSSIL driver was the same > gent that wrote binkleyterm IIRC. > Ahh, cool. Net 343 is north of me. I still hold 138/142. :) Fidonet is still around, but the cronies on FNEWS have degraded the quality pretty badly. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From dgahling at hotmail.com Fri Nov 27 11:41:54 2009 From: dgahling at hotmail.com (Dan Gahlinger) Date: Fri, 27 Nov 2009 12:41:54 -0500 Subject: Fido ... (was Ten Year Rule) In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: Are they still charging fees to join and monthly fees to be a member? I used to run a fido system, but it got stupid. Dan. > Date: Fri, 27 Nov 2009 09:23:52 -0800 > From: geneb at deltasoft.com > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Fido ... (was Ten Year Rule) > > On Wed, 25 Nov 2009, Geoffrey Reed wrote: > > >> > > I ran a 'point' system using opus for several years on a rainbow. 1:343/3.1 > > 'StarShip Inconnu' the creator of the Rainbow FOSSIL driver was the same > > gent that wrote binkleyterm IIRC. > > > Ahh, cool. Net 343 is north of me. I still hold 138/142. :) > > Fidonet is still around, but the cronies on FNEWS have degraded the > quality pretty badly. > > g. > > > -- > Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 > http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. > > ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment > A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. > http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live: Keep your friends up to date with what you do online. http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9691815 From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri Nov 27 11:49:17 2009 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Fri, 27 Nov 2009 09:49:17 -0800 (PST) Subject: Fido ... (was Ten Year Rule) In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: On Fri, 27 Nov 2009, Dan Gahlinger wrote: > > Are they still charging fees to join and monthly fees to be a member? > I used to run a fido system, but it got stupid. > Dan, there has _never_ been any fees associated with FidoNet beyond possibly cost sharing on phone bills. What Net were you in that charged? g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Nov 27 11:50:44 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 27 Nov 2009 12:50:44 -0500 Subject: Cleaning packs In-Reply-To: <0b8b01ca6ed4$d5783ef0$0301a8c0@Alexandre> References: <0b8b01ca6ed4$d5783ef0$0301a8c0@Alexandre> Message-ID: On Nov 26, 2009, at 3:05 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >> I'm horrified to think that there are people who *don't* do that. > > Dave, people who know "the works" are so uncommon that you'd be > surprised. This is frightening and disheartening. But yes, I see lots of evidence of this every day. It makes me sick. > I still believe the Radio Amateurs' Handbook should be used on > schools... Me too!! -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From dgahling at hotmail.com Fri Nov 27 11:53:00 2009 From: dgahling at hotmail.com (Dan Gahlinger) Date: Fri, 27 Nov 2009 12:53:00 -0500 Subject: Fido ... (was Ten Year Rule) In-Reply-To: References: , , , , Message-ID: here in canada, toronto, they charged fees to join fidonet. about $50/month was being asked. I'll see if I can dig up my old node #s... Dan. > Date: Fri, 27 Nov 2009 09:49:17 -0800 > From: geneb at deltasoft.com > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: RE: Fido ... (was Ten Year Rule) > > On Fri, 27 Nov 2009, Dan Gahlinger wrote: > > > > > Are they still charging fees to join and monthly fees to be a member? > > I used to run a fido system, but it got stupid. > > > > Dan, there has _never_ been any fees associated with FidoNet beyond > possibly cost sharing on phone bills. What Net were you in that charged? > > g. > -- > Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 > http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. > > ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment > A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. > http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! _________________________________________________________________ Eligible CDN College & University students can upgrade to Windows 7 before Jan 3 for only $39.99. Upgrade now! http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9691819 From lproven at gmail.com Fri Nov 27 11:56:01 2009 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 27 Nov 2009 17:56:01 +0000 Subject: Fwd: [Croydon-Freecycle] Offer: OLD Apple Mac, CR0 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <575131af0911270956l344f7e86pda181218c7a9c9d2@mail.gmail.com> Machine is in Croydon, Surrey, England, FWIW. - LP ----------------------------------------------------------------- From: queenofcroydon Date: Fri, Nov 27, 2009 at 1:19 PM Subject: [Croydon-Freecycle] Offer: OLD Apple Mac, CR0 To: Croydon-Freecycle at yahoogroups.com Hi All, I have a Macintosh Performa 600 Series with CD-ROM Complete with Monitor, Keyboard, Mouse and external zip drive. I found a picture on "PC-Museum" http://pc-museum.com/gallery/rcm-035.jpg I know that this machine is from the technical perspective kind of if medieval. But maybe there is a MAC-fan out there somewhere, who likes this one. It is fully functional, comes with most of the manuals. Please let me know if you would like to have it - will just go as a bundle! Maike ------------------------------------ -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? LiveJournal/Twitter: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Fri Nov 27 13:08:56 2009 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Fri, 27 Nov 2009 16:08:56 -0300 Subject: Fido ... (was Ten Year Rule) References: , Message-ID: <119d01ca6f95$e78ce020$0301a8c0@Alexandre> >Are they still charging fees to join and monthly fees to be a member? >I used to run a fido system, but it got stupid. In Brazil there wern't any charges, but between the node coordenators there was a division of international call costs. Some coordenators ASKED for donations from the nodes, for the maintaining of the international exchange. But here never had monthy fees or anything to join. From feedle at feedle.net Fri Nov 27 12:15:36 2009 From: feedle at feedle.net (C. Sullivan) Date: Fri, 27 Nov 2009 10:15:36 -0800 Subject: Fido ... (was Ten Year Rule) In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: On Nov 27, 2009, at 9:49 AM, Gene Buckle wrote: > Dan, there has _never_ been any fees associated with FidoNet beyond possibly cost sharing on phone bills. What Net were you in that charged? I distinctly remember the Net in North Orange County (CA, memory serves it was Net 103) expecting some kind of monthly contribution circa 1992-ish. IIRC, that was one of the reasons I said "screw these clowns" because for a similar monthly cost I could get a UUCP feed from this Chinese guy in Garden Grove (that's a story in and of itself). From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Nov 27 12:16:55 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 27 Nov 2009 13:16:55 -0500 Subject: VT78/MR78/OS78 (was Re: Vintage Computer Forum) In-Reply-To: <200911270234.nAR2YKK02374@h-68-165-246-86.mclnva23.covad.net> References: <200911270234.nAR2YKK02374@h-68-165-246-86.mclnva23.covad.net> Message-ID: On 11/26/09, David Gesswein wrote: >>After years of looking, thanks to a tip from this list, >> > Did it wander further? My postings were to pdp8lovers and alt.sys.pdp8 Ah, no. I just misremembered where I read about it. >>Are there any ROM dumps of the MR-78 anywhere? >> > Not that I know of. I have a MR78-BD on mine. The print set doesn't list > what that version does. I probably can dump it if its different from yours. Mine probably has the bog-standard RX02 boot, but I can see about dumping it, especially if it's different than yours. > OS78 images of the disks that came with my VT78 are here > http://www.pdp8online.com/images/images/os8.shtml Thanks! > Also WPS78 here > http://www.pdp8online.com/ftp/images/wps/ Got that, I think. > And COS for the VT78 > http://www.pdp8online.com/ftp/images/cos/ Never played with COS. I have one COS DECtape for the -8/e + TD8E. I think I booted it 25 years ago and didn't know how to make it do anything and put it back on the shelf. > The closest source I know of is OS78 V4 which was for the DECmate I > http://www.ibiblio.org/pub/academic/computer-science/history/pdp-8/os8/ I could use that for my DECmate I anyway. > Enjoy your new toy. Thanks, and thanks for the pointer to it in the first place. -ethan From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Nov 27 14:03:41 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 27 Nov 2009 20:03:41 +0000 (GMT) Subject: IBM PC 5150 power supply? In-Reply-To: <002801ca6d11$a0a37920$e1ea6b60$@net> from "Francis Kirby" at Nov 24, 9 02:23:00 pm Message-ID: > > I'm looking for a IBM PC/ XT power supply for European voltages, 220 -240 V > at 50Hz. IIRC the PC (5150) and PC/XT (5160) PSUs are different in that the latter has a higher power rating. WHich one are you looking for? (No, I don;t have a spare AFAIK, but it would help others to know what you need) > I have three part numbers but can't find specs for them: However I have the PC and PC/XT TechRefs. These give specs and connector info for the PSU (although no schematics of the PSU). If that would be of use (say for adapting another PSU), I can type it up for you -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Nov 27 14:09:50 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 27 Nov 2009 20:09:50 +0000 (GMT) Subject: VT78/MR78/OS78 (was Re: Vintage Computer Forum) In-Reply-To: <4B0E8D99.19306.2384347@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Nov 26, 9 02:15:53 pm Message-ID: > > On 26 Nov 2009 at 20:52, Tony Duell wrote: > > > AndI would think a PIC would be less reliable than the '74 and > > '00 that it would replace on this board). > > I'm not sure about that--PICs definitely use less power than Well, I am not going to bet on it, because I have much the same superstition on gambling as John Scarne, namely that I won't gamble in any week that contains a friday :-). But my experience is thatr the larger (as in transistor count), the chip, the more likely it is to fail. And FWIW I've got plenty of (plain) TTL chips that are gettign on for 40 years old and still working fine. I suspect there'd be a very raal chance of a flash memory microocntroller developing bit-rot before then. You may be right, I don't know, But I _would_ bet that in 40 years time it'll be a lot easier to find data on TTL chips than tracking down the person who wrote the firmware for the microcontroller and convinicing him to give you a copy so you can replace the a dead chip. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Nov 27 14:57:15 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 27 Nov 2009 20:57:15 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Summagraphics Bit Pad One GPIB protocol documentation? In-Reply-To: <4B0F4B83.6090402@mail.msu.edu> from "Josh Dersch" at Nov 26, 9 07:46:11 pm Message-ID: > Thanks -- looks like Al already has it scanned, so there's no need to go Yes, thanks to Al for that. It's saved me a bit of typing... > through the trouble of transcribing it for me. Thanks for the offer, > though. > > Looks like a pretty simple protocol, should be easy to get going, at > least once I work out the subtleties of GPIB... IIRC you don't need to bother too much about GPIB. On the PERQ side that was handled by the Z80 and a 9914 chip. And I don;t think the BP1 uses many of the GPIB features, thankfully. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Nov 27 14:32:33 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 27 Nov 2009 20:32:33 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Ten Year Rule In-Reply-To: <4B0E8E9E.7987.23C3D87@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Nov 26, 9 02:20:14 pm Message-ID: > > On 26 Nov 2009 at 19:02, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > > > >> What an idiot I was. NOW where can I find a fun course for playing > > >> with tubes ("valves"?) > > > > ARRL Radio Amateurs' Handbook :o) Preferably an old one :o) > > My vote goes for the old RCA "Radiotron Designer's Handbook" aka "the > big thick red book". More about real-world engineering using tubes Whiole that's an excellent book (I bought the reprint that came out some years ago), I wouldn;'t describe it as a 'fun course for playing with tubes'. The infromation is there, but unless you've built the odd valve circuit before, I think you'd have problems getting started. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Nov 27 15:04:22 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 27 Nov 2009 21:04:22 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Cleaning packs In-Reply-To: from "Dave McGuire" at Nov 27, 9 12:50:44 pm Message-ID: > > Dave, people who know "the works" are so uncommon that you'd be > > surprised. > > This is frightening and disheartening. But yes, I see lots of I have, alas, come to terms with it. To be honest I generally associate with those few people who do void the warreaty on everything they own on the day of purchase :-) > evidence of this every day. It makes me sick. I witnessard an incidnet the other day (I will discuss it off-list only!) which could have beena lot more serious than it was. But I am convinced that if one of the people involved had had a very slight knowledge of motor car engineering, it wouldn't have happeend at all. > > I still believe the Radio Amateurs' Handbook should be used on > > schools... Of failing that, H&H (for some odd reason this book is not popular in educational establishments ove here...) it others me -- a lot -- that the lowest level amatuer radio license over here prohibits you from designing a transmitter. You have to use a ready-uilt one, or one built from an approved kit (or maybe to an approved design). Ouch!. Fortunately I have the full license... -tony From cclist at sydex.com Fri Nov 27 15:48:26 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 27 Nov 2009 13:48:26 -0800 Subject: Ten Year Rule In-Reply-To: References: <4B0E8E9E.7987.23C3D87@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Nov 26, 9 02:20:14 pm, Message-ID: <4B0FD8AA.11582.11319C8@cclist.sydex.com> On 27 Nov 2009 at 20:32, Tony Duell wrote: > Whiole that's an excellent book (I bought the reprint that came out > some years ago), I wouldn;'t describe it as a 'fun course for playing > with tubes'. The infromation is there, but unless you've built the > odd valve circuit before, I think you'd have problems getting started. My problem with the ARRL RAH is that it's exclusively radio-oriented. There's a copy of the 1959 "Radio Handbook" published by "Editors and Engineers" here: http://www.scribd.com/doc/8554942/The-Radio- Handbook-1959 I have the 1939 edition. A bit heavier on theory, but still "radio oriented", as is the very good "Radio Handbook" by William Orr. Still, if you want to start simple, there's the Alfred Powell Morgan 1941 "First Radio Book for Boys". Extermely popular way back when, so there are still used copies available. --Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Nov 27 16:15:59 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 27 Nov 2009 14:15:59 -0800 (PST) Subject: IBM PC 5150 power supply? In-Reply-To: <002801ca6d11$a0a37920$e1ea6b60$@net> References: <002801ca6d11$a0a37920$e1ea6b60$@net> Message-ID: <20091127141014.E89141@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 24 Nov 2009, Francis Kirby wrote: > I'm looking for a IBM PC/ XT power supply for European voltages, 220 -240 V > at 50Hz. The PC is model 5150, the XT is model 5160. WHICH IS IT? > I have three part numbers but can't find specs for them: > 5150438 > 5150439 > 6323357 Look in the "PC Technical Reference Manual", and in the "PC/XT Technical Reference Manual" The original PC (5150) had a power supply of about 65 watts. That proved to be a bit inadequate, and when the XT (5160) came out with a hard drive, IBM upped the power supply to about 130 watts. The two can physically interchange, and for a while most dumpsters were full of 5150 power supplies (when people replaced them with the higher power ones.) WHY are you looking for one? Is yours dead? IS IT REPAIRABLE? Which one is your dead one? From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Nov 27 16:32:05 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 27 Nov 2009 17:32:05 -0500 Subject: IBM PC 5150 power supply? In-Reply-To: <20091127141014.E89141@shell.lmi.net> References: <002801ca6d11$a0a37920$e1ea6b60$@net> <20091127141014.E89141@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <8B7482FB-0866-4BCE-B99B-3D160D9EAFB8@neurotica.com> On Nov 27, 2009, at 5:15 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Tue, 24 Nov 2009, Francis Kirby wrote: >> I'm looking for a IBM PC/ XT power supply for European voltages, >> 220 -240 V >> at 50Hz. > > The PC is model 5150, the XT is model 5160. > WHICH IS IT? Umm...look at the subject? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Nov 27 16:43:26 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 27 Nov 2009 14:43:26 -0800 (PST) Subject: IBM PC 5150 power supply? In-Reply-To: <8B7482FB-0866-4BCE-B99B-3D160D9EAFB8@neurotica.com> References: <002801ca6d11$a0a37920$e1ea6b60$@net> <20091127141014.E89141@shell.lmi.net> <8B7482FB-0866-4BCE-B99B-3D160D9EAFB8@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20091127143436.C89141@shell.lmi.net> > > On Tue, 24 Nov 2009, Francis Kirby wrote: > >> I'm looking for a IBM PC/ XT power supply for European voltages, > >> 220 -240 V > >> at 50Hz. > > The PC is model 5150, the XT is model 5160. > > WHICH IS IT? On Fri, 27 Nov 2009, Dave McGuire wrote: > Umm...look at the subject? Re: IBM PC 5150 power supply? . . . and then read the first line of the message: > >> I'm looking for a IBM PC/ XT power supply for European voltages, Which is it: "PC 5150", or "PC/ XT"? The first is worth less, sells for more, and is getting harder to find. The second is easier to find, and there are many tons of generics in landfill. Is this to be a "museum restoration"?, in which case there are issues of multiple releases of the 5150 supply (my first 16K 5150 came with a black supply with a white switch. Have seen few of those since then.) Or is this "get it working"?, in which case a 130W or 150W Taiwan generic should be fine. What happened to the original? Contrary to popular belief, they ARE repairable. From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Nov 27 17:22:06 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 27 Nov 2009 18:22:06 -0500 Subject: Cleaning packs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9EF8744B-A558-4A78-A968-9CA988BC6533@neurotica.com> On Nov 27, 2009, at 4:04 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > Of failing that, H&H (for some odd reason this book is not popular in > educational establishments ove here...) That's odd. H&H is a fantastic book. I have the great honor of having the second 'H' (Win Hill) on a mailing list that I run. The day he subscribed, I called my mother to tell her about it. :) > it others me -- a lot -- that the lowest level amatuer radio > license over > here prohibits you from designing a transmitter. You have to use a > ready-uilt one, or one built from an approved kit (or maybe to an > approved design). Ouch!. Fortunately I have the full license... Waaaaaitaminute. That kinda goes against one of the fundamental tenets of ham radio! -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Nov 27 18:02:11 2009 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Fri, 27 Nov 2009 17:02:11 -0700 Subject: Ten Year Rule In-Reply-To: <4B0FD8AA.11582.11319C8@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4B0E8E9E.7987.23C3D87@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Nov 26, 9 02:20:14 pm, <4B0FD8AA.11582.11319C8@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4B106883.5030909@jetnet.ab.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote: > > Still, if you want to start simple, there's the Alfred Powell Morgan > 1941 "First Radio Book for Boys". Extermely popular way back when, > so there are still used copies available. Um what about variable caps and other hardware? I got a ham receiver design and the dials and weird variable air caps you just can't find that looks like it was about a 1948-ish design[1]. > --Chuck > Things to Make and Do, Book of knowlage 1951. From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Nov 27 18:20:11 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 27 Nov 2009 19:20:11 -0500 Subject: Ten Year Rule In-Reply-To: <4B106883.5030909@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4B0E8E9E.7987.23C3D87@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Nov 26, 9 02:20:14 pm, <4B0FD8AA.11582.11319C8@cclist.sydex.com> <4B106883.5030909@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <0A9D92CB-505D-4FBA-BDE5-E60472B22708@neurotica.com> On Nov 27, 2009, at 7:02 PM, Ben wrote: >> Still, if you want to start simple, there's the Alfred Powell >> Morgan 1941 "First Radio Book for Boys". Extermely popular way >> back when, so there are still used copies available. > > Um what about variable caps and other hardware? I got a ham receiver > design and the dials and weird variable air caps you just can't find > that looks like it was about a 1948-ish design[1]. Air variable capacitors are available in lots of different places. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cclist at sydex.com Fri Nov 27 18:37:39 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 27 Nov 2009 16:37:39 -0800 Subject: Ten Year Rule In-Reply-To: <4B106883.5030909@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4B0E8E9E.7987.23C3D87@cclist.sydex.com>, <4B0FD8AA.11582.11319C8@cclist.sydex.com>, <4B106883.5030909@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4B100053.24740.1AE0718@cclist.sydex.com> On 27 Nov 2009 at 17:02, Ben wrote: > Um what about variable caps and other hardware? I got a ham receiver > design and the dials and weird variable air caps you just can't find > that looks like it was about a 1948-ish design[1]. You could also go back to about 1921 and build your own book-style variable capacitors, vario couplers and build it all on a shellacked pine board. Finding UV201s may be a problem, as well as "B" batteries... But air variables are still around; you may have to look a bit... --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Fri Nov 27 18:42:41 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 27 Nov 2009 16:42:41 -0800 Subject: OT: Counterfeit ICs Message-ID: <4B100181.1463.1B2A1EE@cclist.sydex.com> For any of you who were temped to order through one of the Chinese outfits advertising rare and obsolete ICs on the web, here's a story of a guy who had the nerve to sell them to the Pentagon: http://www.edn.com/article/CA6709025.html Cheers, Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Nov 27 18:43:29 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 27 Nov 2009 19:43:29 -0500 Subject: Ten Year Rule In-Reply-To: <4B100053.24740.1AE0718@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4B0E8E9E.7987.23C3D87@cclist.sydex.com>, <4B0FD8AA.11582.11319C8@cclist.sydex.com>, <4B106883.5030909@jetnet.ab.ca> <4B100053.24740.1AE0718@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <2B85A8F4-BFE4-49D2-B591-B19EFA1B545A@neurotica.com> On Nov 27, 2009, at 7:37 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> Um what about variable caps and other hardware? I got a ham receiver >> design and the dials and weird variable air caps you just can't find >> that looks like it was about a 1948-ish design[1]. > > You could also go back to about 1921 and build your own book-style > variable capacitors, vario couplers and build it all on a shellacked > pine board. Finding UV201s may be a problem, as well as "B" > batteries... > > But air variables are still around; you may have to look a bit... You don't even have to look a bit. A quick eBay search on any given day will turn up *dozens*. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Nov 27 20:44:46 2009 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Fri, 27 Nov 2009 19:44:46 -0700 Subject: Ten Year Rule In-Reply-To: <2B85A8F4-BFE4-49D2-B591-B19EFA1B545A@neurotica.com> References: <4B0E8E9E.7987.23C3D87@cclist.sydex.com>, <4B0FD8AA.11582.11319C8@cclist.sydex.com>, <4B106883.5030909@jetnet.ab.ca> <4B100053.24740.1AE0718@cclist.sydex.com> <2B85A8F4-BFE4-49D2-B591-B19EFA1B545A@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4B108E9E.8050400@jetnet.ab.ca> Dave McGuire wrote: >> But air variables are still around; you may have to look a bit... > > You don't even have to look a bit. A quick eBay search on any given > day will turn up *dozens*. Epay is not a option... 140 uuf, 15 uuf and 100 uuf variable air condensers is not easy to find. I don't expect to find the plug in coil set for SW sold now days... > -Dave > PS the tubes are easy to find ... 1G4GT's @ 11 each. Ben. From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Nov 27 20:56:15 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 27 Nov 2009 21:56:15 -0500 Subject: Ten Year Rule In-Reply-To: <4B108E9E.8050400@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4B0E8E9E.7987.23C3D87@cclist.sydex.com>, <4B0FD8AA.11582.11319C8@cclist.sydex.com>, <4B106883.5030909@jetnet.ab.ca> <4B100053.24740.1AE0718@cclist.sydex.com> <2B85A8F4-BFE4-49D2-B591-B19EFA1B545A@neurotica.com> <4B108E9E.8050400@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Nov 27, 2009, at 9:44 PM, Ben wrote: >>> But air variables are still around; you may have to look a bit... >> You don't even have to look a bit. A quick eBay search on any >> given day will turn up *dozens*. > Epay is not a option... Any particular reason? -Dave > -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cclist at sydex.com Fri Nov 27 21:10:56 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 27 Nov 2009 19:10:56 -0800 Subject: Ten Year Rule In-Reply-To: <4B108E9E.8050400@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4B0E8E9E.7987.23C3D87@cclist.sydex.com>, <2B85A8F4-BFE4-49D2-B591-B19EFA1B545A@neurotica.com>, <4B108E9E.8050400@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4B102440.18733.23A5D7D@cclist.sydex.com> On 27 Nov 2009 at 19:44, Ben wrote: > 140 uuf, 15 uuf and 100 uuf variable air condensers is not easy to > find. I don't expect to find the plug in coil set for SW sold now > days... Google much? http://www.surplussales.com/Variables/AirVariables/AirVar1.html About the third hit on the list. There are more. Plug in coil forms? First hit: http://www.nationalrf.com/plugin_coil.htm --Chuck From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Nov 27 21:27:40 2009 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Fri, 27 Nov 2009 20:27:40 -0700 Subject: Ten Year Rule In-Reply-To: References: <4B0E8E9E.7987.23C3D87@cclist.sydex.com>, <4B0FD8AA.11582.11319C8@cclist.sydex.com>, <4B106883.5030909@jetnet.ab.ca> <4B100053.24740.1AE0718@cclist.sydex.com> <2B85A8F4-BFE4-49D2-B591-B19EFA1B545A@neurotica.com> <4B108E9E.8050400@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4B1098AC.3060808@jetnet.ab.ca> Dave McGuire wrote: > On Nov 27, 2009, at 9:44 PM, Ben wrote: >>>> But air variables are still around; you may have to look a bit... >>> You don't even have to look a bit. A quick eBay search on any >>> given day will turn up *dozens*. >> Epay is not a option... > > Any particular reason? No credit card. The other reason is that they are a pain to use, as they seem to have slower and slower page loading. > -Dave >> > From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Nov 27 21:33:52 2009 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Fri, 27 Nov 2009 20:33:52 -0700 Subject: Ten Year Rule In-Reply-To: <4B102440.18733.23A5D7D@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4B0E8E9E.7987.23C3D87@cclist.sydex.com>, <2B85A8F4-BFE4-49D2-B591-B19EFA1B545A@neurotica.com>, <4B108E9E.8050400@jetnet.ab.ca> <4B102440.18733.23A5D7D@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4B109A20.6000401@jetnet.ab.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 27 Nov 2009 at 19:44, Ben wrote: > >> 140 uuf, 15 uuf and 100 uuf variable air condensers is not easy to >> find. I don't expect to find the plug in coil set for SW sold now >> days... > > Google much? > > http://www.surplussales.com/Variables/AirVariables/AirVar1.html > I use them all the time, for the odd part. > About the third hit on the list. There are more. > > Plug in coil forms? First hit: > > http://www.nationalrf.com/plugin_coil.htm I need the pre wound coils, or to buy a book with the data. A new bookmark for me. > > --Chuck > > From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Nov 27 21:41:13 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 27 Nov 2009 22:41:13 -0500 Subject: Ten Year Rule In-Reply-To: <4B1098AC.3060808@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4B0E8E9E.7987.23C3D87@cclist.sydex.com>, <4B0FD8AA.11582.11319C8@cclist.sydex.com>, <4B106883.5030909@jetnet.ab.ca> <4B100053.24740.1AE0718@cclist.sydex.com> <2B85A8F4-BFE4-49D2-B591-B19EFA1B545A@neurotica.com> <4B108E9E.8050400@jetnet.ab.ca> <4B1098AC.3060808@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <2BC74D57-6449-4ED6-A549-524E44FBEFB2@neurotica.com> On Nov 27, 2009, at 10:27 PM, Ben wrote: >>>>> But air variables are still around; you may have to look a bit... >>>> You don't even have to look a bit. A quick eBay search on any >>>> given day will turn up *dozens*. >>> Epay is not a option... >> Any particular reason? > > No credit card. Me neither...hasn't been a problem. > The other reason is that they are a pain to use, as they seem to > have slower and slower page loading. The slower page loading thing I'll agree with; they seem to have hired a bunch of web developers that want to use every "whiz bang" feature of the latest not-quite-ratified HTML standard that they read about in "Windoze Newbie Magazine". I still find it pretty easy to use, though, honestly. That said, though...you want air variables, just bite the bullet and do it. I buy everything short of food and clothing on eBay and have saved a fortune that way. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cclist at sydex.com Fri Nov 27 22:35:54 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 27 Nov 2009 20:35:54 -0800 Subject: Ten Year Rule In-Reply-To: <4B109A20.6000401@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4B0E8E9E.7987.23C3D87@cclist.sydex.com>, <4B102440.18733.23A5D7D@cclist.sydex.com>, <4B109A20.6000401@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4B10382A.13396.2882451@cclist.sydex.com> On 27 Nov 2009 at 20:33, Ben wrote: > I need the pre wound coils, or to buy a book with the data. > A new bookmark for me. There's coil-winding data on the web, or you can use an old favorite for pre-fab coils: http://www.bwantennas.com/coils/mini.htm But there's plenty of help and like-minded folks at the Antique Radio Forum: http://www.antiqueradios.com/forums/index.php Check out the "homebrew" section. --Chuck From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Nov 27 23:00:46 2009 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Fri, 27 Nov 2009 22:00:46 -0700 Subject: Ten Year Rule In-Reply-To: <2BC74D57-6449-4ED6-A549-524E44FBEFB2@neurotica.com> References: <4B0E8E9E.7987.23C3D87@cclist.sydex.com>, <4B0FD8AA.11582.11319C8@cclist.sydex.com>, <4B106883.5030909@jetnet.ab.ca> <4B100053.24740.1AE0718@cclist.sydex.com> <2B85A8F4-BFE4-49D2-B591-B19EFA1B545A@neurotica.com> <4B108E9E.8050400@jetnet.ab.ca> <4B1098AC.3060808@jetnet.ab.ca> <2BC74D57-6449-4ED6-A549-524E44FBEFB2@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4B10AE7E.4040809@jetnet.ab.ca> Dave McGuire wrote: I still find it pretty easy to use, though, honestly. > > That said, though...you want air variables, just bite the bullet and > do it. I buy everything short of food and clothing on eBay and have > saved a fortune that way. Shipping for me is also expensive. I want the real rare item, not the L@@K RARE CD, PC or Boom box. Every now and then I look for Reel to Reel tapes but that is mostly it. I'd also look for classic computers too but finding anything past PC's and apples is hard since I need a whole working system, not board ABC-bus 2972D. > -Dave > PS. 15 minutes later ( loading time ) Vintage Computers : other ... Lots of games, servers/cpu's and tubes (audio)... Oh wait out of 200 items about 1/2 dozen computer items. Sigh. PPS Let my know if you find a few thousand 74LS13's for pennies each and I will build that TTL computer I always wanted. :) From useddec at gmail.com Sat Nov 28 00:04:49 2009 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Sat, 28 Nov 2009 00:04:49 -0600 Subject: Mostly Q-Bus Parts Message-ID: <624966d60911272204s39c21f14ha2609a653cfc9bb7@mail.gmail.com> Going through boxes during my move in back in process. This is the first partial list of surplus boards available. $10 shipping for any amount within the US, overseas: please contact me. If interested in these or items something not on this list, please contact me off list. Feel free to respond with any comments or ?'s. M3107 DHQ11 $30 M7090 COMM $35 M7504 DEQNA $35 M7513 RD/RX EXP $30 M7546 TK50 $25 M7559 TQK70 $50 M7651 DRV11WA $75 N7940 DLV11 $20 M7944 MSV11B $25 M7946 RXV11 $45 M7949 LAV11 $30 M8044 MSV11/D $25..5/$100.00 The above boards are untested,but have a 30 day swap warranty 54-13009-03 VT100 basic video board $50 54-14185-01 VT101 (I think) video board $50 These were tested several years ago, and I might test them again, but will also have a 30 day warranty. Many Thanks, Paul From djg at pdp8online.com Fri Nov 27 12:53:25 2009 From: djg at pdp8online.com (David Gesswein) Date: Fri, 27 Nov 2009 13:53:25 -0500 Subject: VT78/MR78/OS78 (was Re: Vintage Computer Forum) Message-ID: <200911271853.nARIrPF08525@h-68-165-246-86.mclnva23.covad.net> > Never played with COS. I have one COS DECtape for the -8/e + TD8E. I > think I booted it 25 years ago and didn't know how to make it do > anything and put it back on the shelf. > Manuals are here. Probably still not that exciting. http://www.pdp8online.com/pdp8cgi/query_docs/query.pl?Search=cos >> The closest source I know of is OS78 V4 which was for the DECmate I >> http://www.ibiblio.org/pub/academic/computer-science/history/pdp-8/os8/ > >I could use that for my DECmate I anyway. > I made a disk using that source and some others. They are in RX02 mode. http://www.pdp8online.com/images/images/os8/DECmate_I.shtml I haven't seen any original DECmate I disk images around. From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Fri Nov 27 15:01:32 2009 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Fri, 27 Nov 2009 13:01:32 -0800 (PST) Subject: RM Nimbus 186 info request.... In-Reply-To: <4B0DF3FF.4070606@aurigae.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <60478.96561.qm@web65504.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> just out of curiosity, what in God's name do you intend to do w/the information once you get it? I like to think of the Nimbus as the UK version of the Tandy 2000 (or the other way around, don't know which one came out first). They share a number of things in common - duh the 80186, video monitors. IINM though the Nimbus used an NEC 7220 for graphics. I got in contact w/a *former* developer of sorts that had been working on a mod for the T2K that would supposedly render it 100% IBM compatible. Something to do w/a PAL chip spying out interrupt requests and routing to a modified service call. Or what have you. Are you going to be trying something like that? Ok, probably not. Otherwise - huh? I don't have one. Yet. One kind Britisher once told me my name was on his spare. Bless yer merry gentleman if my name is still on it :). Thinking about taking a short trip to the UK over Christmas holiday. Can't say for sure though. --- On Wed, 11/25/09, Phill Harvey-Smith wrote: > From: Phill Harvey-Smith > Subject: RM Nimbus 186 info request.... > To: "On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Date: Wednesday, November 25, 2009, 10:20 PM > Hi, > > On the offchance that someone here may be able to help > me...... > > I'm looking for any low-level technical information about > the RM Nimbus 80186 based machine. > Specifically I'm looking for details of bios calls, and > hardware addresses, bus pinouts etc. > > If anyone has a copy of "The Nimbus Advanced Programmers > Refference Guide" that they would be willing to part with, > that would be most helpfull. > > Cheers. > > Phill. > > -- Phill Harvey-Smith, Programmer, Hardware hacker, and > general eccentric ! > > "You can twist perceptions, but reality won't budge" -- > Rush. > From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Nov 28 08:50:11 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 28 Nov 2009 09:50:11 -0500 Subject: Ten Year Rule In-Reply-To: <4B10AE7E.4040809@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4B0E8E9E.7987.23C3D87@cclist.sydex.com>, <4B0FD8AA.11582.11319C8@cclist.sydex.com>, <4B106883.5030909@jetnet.ab.ca> <4B100053.24740.1AE0718@cclist.sydex.com> <2B85A8F4-BFE4-49D2-B591-B19EFA1B545A@neurotica.com> <4B108E9E.8050400@jetnet.ab.ca> <4B1098AC.3060808@jetnet.ab.ca> <2BC74D57-6449-4ED6-A549-524E44FBEFB2@neurotica.com> <4B10AE7E.4040809@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <7E021C72-C917-418C-9241-A9FF7783DBA9@neurotica.com> On Nov 28, 2009, at 12:00 AM, Ben wrote: > PS. 15 minutes later ( loading time ) > Vintage Computers : other > ... Lots of games, servers/cpu's and tubes (audio)... > Oh wait out of 200 items about 1/2 dozen computer items. > Sigh. Indeed, the problem there is using the categories. Ignore them...because most of the sellers seem to! I do searches almost exclusively, heavily wildcarded and with "-" modifiers...like "pdp* - plasma -sony -pioneer -lure -pacific -toner". That gives me lots of DEC PDP-related hits, while filtering out most of the Pioner KX- PDPmumble plasma TV units and parts, the fishing lures and Panasonic laser printer toner cartridges whose model numbers contain "pdp", and the Pacific Percussion drum equipment (although I'm interested in that too if the mood is right) whose model numbers also contain "pdp". > PPS Let my know if you find a few thousand 74LS13's > for pennies each and I will build that TTL computer I always > wanted. :) Now that'd be fun! -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From pontus at update.uu.se Sat Nov 28 09:46:25 2009 From: pontus at update.uu.se (Pontus) Date: Sat, 28 Nov 2009 16:46:25 +0100 Subject: Straight-8 Rack available Message-ID: <4B1145D1.6000007@update.uu.se> Hi. Not mine, not affiliated, but I think a serious collector should pick this up! http://dallas.craigslist.org/ftw/ele/1484014610.html Cheers, Pontus. From geneb at deltasoft.com Sat Nov 28 11:30:18 2009 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sat, 28 Nov 2009 09:30:18 -0800 (PST) Subject: Fido ... (was Ten Year Rule) In-Reply-To: References: , , , , Message-ID: > > here in canada, toronto, they charged fees to join fidonet. > about $50/month was being asked. > > I'll see if I can dig up my old node #s... > That's really, really weird. Where was the money going? Certainly not to IFNA... g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From feedle at feedle.net Sat Nov 28 11:51:00 2009 From: feedle at feedle.net (C. Sullivan) Date: Sat, 28 Nov 2009 09:51:00 -0800 Subject: Fido ... (was Ten Year Rule) In-Reply-To: References: , , , , Message-ID: <87B5DC42-4B99-4C79-BA68-5B835A01BD18@feedle.net> On Nov 28, 2009, at 9:30 AM, Gene Buckle wrote: > That's really, really weird. Where was the money going? Certainly not to IFNA... In my experience, into the back pockets of the person running the local Network and/or particular well-connected Nodes. My experience with FidoNet left me with the impression that while the IFNA was very well run, individual Networks were often rife with corruption and politics. And while IFNA may not have been "officially" aware of some of this, they chose to take a blind eye to most of it. FidoNet was the "good ol' boys" network of the BBS era, an attitude that pervaded every aspect of its operation and made it hostile to outsiders trying to get in. A case study could be made exclusively around WWIV boards trying to get access to FidoNet once it was figured out how to get it to work (on the WWIV side). I personally know of multiple Networks that made it much harder on WWIV-based boards solely because.. they were WWIV-based boards. Part of the explosion of WWIVnet and WWIVlink in the late 80's and early 90's is directly attributable to this: if FidoNet wasn't hostile to WWIV sysops, it's likely that WWIVnet would have ever achieved the level of traction that it did. From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Nov 28 11:00:23 2009 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sat, 28 Nov 2009 10:00:23 -0700 Subject: Straight-8 Rack available In-Reply-To: <4B1145D1.6000007@update.uu.se> References: <4B1145D1.6000007@update.uu.se> Message-ID: At 4:46 PM +0100 11/28/09, Pontus wrote: >Not mine, not affiliated, but I think a serious collector should pick >this up! > >http://dallas.craigslist.org/ftw/ele/1484014610.html I agree, racks like that are surely rare enough to warrant a rescue! If I were local, I'd go for it! Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From caveguy at sbcglobal.net Sat Nov 28 12:01:55 2009 From: caveguy at sbcglobal.net (Bob Bradlee) Date: Sat, 28 Nov 2009 13:01:55 -0500 Subject: Fido ... (was Ten Year Rule) In-Reply-To: <87B5DC42-4B99-4C79-BA68-5B835A01BD18@feedle.net> Message-ID: <191650.72038.qm@smtp101.sbc.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> On Sat, 28 Nov 2009 09:51:00 -0800, C. Sullivan wrote: >A case study could be made exclusively around WWIV boards trying to get access to FidoNet once it was figured out how to get it to work (on the WWIV side). I personally know of multiple Networks that made it much harder on WWIV-based boards solely because.. they were WWIV-based boards. Part of the explosion of WWIVnet and WWIVlink in the late 80's and early 90's is directly attributable to this: if FidoNet wasn't hostile to WWIV sysops, it's likely that WWIVnet would have ever achieved the level of traction that it did. As a VirtualNET operator at the time, I agree. Had the FidoNet contact not been such @$#%!! when we got it to work VBBS, VNET would have never atttained 1500+ nodes. The other Bob From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sat Nov 28 12:18:58 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 28 Nov 2009 13:18:58 -0500 Subject: Straight-8 Rack available In-Reply-To: References: <4B1145D1.6000007@update.uu.se> Message-ID: On 11/28/09, Zane H. Healy wrote: > At 4:46 PM +0100 11/28/09, Pontus wrote: >>Not mine, not affiliated, but I think a serious collector should pick >>this up! >> >>http://dallas.craigslist.org/ftw/ele/1484014610.html > > I agree, racks like that are surely rare enough to warrant a rescue! > If I were local, I'd go for it! And for something 40+ years old, my definition of local is somewhat expanded... unfortunately, Texas is still a bit far from Ohio. If that were in Indiana or even Missouri, I'd definitely try to pick it up. Looking at the rack, since a Straight-8 has huge backplanes that fill the top of the rack, there are no upper doors - I'm wondering if that's an -8/S cabinet. -ethan From ajp166 at verizon.net Sat Nov 28 12:32:31 2009 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Sat, 28 Nov 2009 13:32:31 -0500 Subject: Straight-8 Rack available In-Reply-To: References: <4B1145D1.6000007@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <4B116CBF.6030908@verizon.net> That box is OLD. I tried to find anything that looks like it and we start looking in the 1966 or earlier realm. I suspect it was a much earlier box (pre super mini as PDP11 was first gen super mini) and none of the PDP11 or PDP8 (E,I,F,M,A,L or pdp12) used that cabinet that I know of and some of the fossils in the DEC lab areas were sometimes odd. It's a no match until I looks at old pdp(pre '65) pictures. FYI all the old 8 racks I'd ever seen were mostly black and maybe gray. Blue is an old DEC color for old systems. This one is unusual. Allison Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 11/28/09, Zane H. Healy wrote: > >> At 4:46 PM +0100 11/28/09, Pontus wrote: >> >>> Not mine, not affiliated, but I think a serious collector should pick >>> this up! >>> >>> http://dallas.craigslist.org/ftw/ele/1484014610.html >>> >> I agree, racks like that are surely rare enough to warrant a rescue! >> If I were local, I'd go for it! >> > > And for something 40+ years old, my definition of local is somewhat > expanded... unfortunately, Texas is still a bit far from Ohio. If > that were in Indiana or even Missouri, I'd definitely try to pick it > up. > > Looking at the rack, since a Straight-8 has huge backplanes that fill > the top of the rack, there are no upper doors - I'm wondering if > that's an -8/S cabinet. > > -ethan > > From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sat Nov 28 12:34:02 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 28 Nov 2009 13:34:02 -0500 Subject: Straight-8 Rack available In-Reply-To: References: <4B1145D1.6000007@update.uu.se> Message-ID: > Looking at the rack, since a Straight-8 has huge backplanes that fill > the top of the rack, there are no upper doors - I'm wondering if > that's an -8/S cabinet. I have seen Staight-8s in that style rack - they fit. Very nice - I wish I was closer. I need to make a New York to Knoxville run soon, but that is too far out of the way. -- Will From pontus at update.uu.se Sat Nov 28 13:04:55 2009 From: pontus at update.uu.se (Pontus) Date: Sat, 28 Nov 2009 20:04:55 +0100 Subject: Straight-8 Rack available In-Reply-To: References: <4B1145D1.6000007@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <4B117457.2010206@update.uu.se> > Looking at the rack, since a Straight-8 has huge backplanes that fill > the top of the rack, there are no upper doors - I'm wondering if > that's an -8/S cabinet. > Hmm you are right, It can't be a PDP-8 http://www.oldcomputers.arcula.co.uk/files/images/pdp8101.jpg I then thought It might be a PDP-5, but that is probably not so: http://www.mcmanis.com/chuck/computers/images/pdp5-rescue.jpg Perhaps it is for a peripheral for one of the above? mvh, Pontus. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Nov 28 12:15:53 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 28 Nov 2009 18:15:53 +0000 (GMT) Subject: IBM PC 5150 power supply? In-Reply-To: <8B7482FB-0866-4BCE-B99B-3D160D9EAFB8@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Nov 27, 9 05:32:05 pm Message-ID: > > On Nov 27, 2009, at 5:15 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > > On Tue, 24 Nov 2009, Francis Kirby wrote: > >> I'm looking for a IBM PC/ XT power supply for European voltages, > >> 220 -240 V > >> at 50Hz. > > > > The PC is model 5150, the XT is model 5160. > > WHICH IS IT? > > Umm...look at the subject? Since the Suject: line and the line from the original message that you quoted are contradictory (once says '5150', which is the PC, the other says PC/XT (which is a 5160), why should I believe the former rather than the latter? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Nov 28 12:29:33 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 28 Nov 2009 18:29:33 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Ten Year Rule In-Reply-To: <4B106883.5030909@jetnet.ab.ca> from "Ben" at Nov 27, 9 05:02:11 pm Message-ID: > > Chuck Guzis wrote: > > > > Still, if you want to start simple, there's the Alfred Powell Morgan > > 1941 "First Radio Book for Boys". Extermely popular way back when, > > so there are still used copies available. > > Um what about variable caps and other hardware? I got a ham receiver THey are not hard to find. I am sure they turn up on E-bay. Or grab a junker AA5 radio and remocve the rtuning capactior, If it's too high a capacitance, rip off some of the moving plates (seriously). I really would recomend the 'Impoverished Radio Experimenter' books. They're fairly modern and full of tips like this. THey are _not_ a course in how to desing with valves, but you can make several radio receivers from said books. Read them alongisde other books. If you're seriously mad (that is a term of honour, of course), then you might try 'The voice of the cyrstal' and 'Instruments of amplification'. They coaver mauing radio receivers using _no_ commercial components. OK, he dose yuse enammeled copper wire :-). The first book covers cycstal sets (and one chapeter is making the variable capacitor), the second covers making (very poor, but still hackish) valves and transistors. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Nov 28 12:37:22 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 28 Nov 2009 18:37:22 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Ten Year Rule In-Reply-To: <4B10AE7E.4040809@jetnet.ab.ca> from "Ben" at Nov 27, 9 10:00:46 pm Message-ID: [Ebay] > Shipping for me is also expensive. I want the real rare item, That can be a problem for me too (and I guess just about aeveryone). In gernaly for larger/heaveir things (complete classic computers, etc) I want the pick them up in person, or at least have them shipped from withing the UK. ut odd boards, variable capacitors (:-)), small units, etc, I'll pay the shaipping from across the Pond. It depends on what it is. As I mentioned in another message I am looking for an Epson MX80 printer. I am not going to pay to have that shiped from abroud [1]. But I did pay for air-mail shipping on a large and heavy HP9125 plotter becuase it is so darn rare I am not going to find one in the UK. > not the L@@K RARE CD, PC or Boom box. Every now and then I look > for Reel to Reel tapes but that is mostly it. I'd also look for classic > computers too but finding anything past PC's and apples is hard since I > need a whole working system, not board ABC-bus 2972D. Obviously I am looing on a different E-bay. I've found all sorts of classic compoters there. And yes, bought some of them. Mostly (but not exlusively) HP stuff. Sometimes you have to piece together the machine you want. Buying odd boards, etc. But that's part of the fun. > PPS Let my know if you find a few thousand 74LS13's > for pennies each and I will build that TTL computer I always > wanted. :) I am wondering why you'd want a lot of 4-input NAND schmitt triggers to make a computer. Lots of NAND gates, sure.. -tony From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sat Nov 28 13:52:25 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 28 Nov 2009 14:52:25 -0500 Subject: Straight-8 Rack available In-Reply-To: <4B117457.2010206@update.uu.se> References: <4B1145D1.6000007@update.uu.se> <4B117457.2010206@update.uu.se> Message-ID: >> Looking at the rack, since a Straight-8 has huge backplanes that fill >> the top of the rack, there are no upper doors - I'm wondering if >> that's an -8/S cabinet. >> > Hmm you are right, It can't be a PDP-8 You guys can not tell the top of the Dallas mystery rack has two doors, side by side? They are not woodgrain, but blue - I have seen Straight-8s like this, with no woodgrain. Maybe it is for another piece of DEC gear, but the clues tell me Straight-8. -- Will From cclist at sydex.com Sat Nov 28 13:53:11 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 28 Nov 2009 11:53:11 -0800 Subject: Ten Year Rule In-Reply-To: References: <4B106883.5030909@jetnet.ab.ca> from "Ben" at Nov 27, 9 05:02:11 pm, Message-ID: <4B110F27.8490.AF1692@cclist.sydex.com> On 28 Nov 2009 at 18:29, Tony Duell wrote: > THey are not hard to find. I am sure they turn up on E-bay. Or grab a > junker AA5 radio and remocve the rtuning capactior, If it's too high a > capacitance, rip off some of the moving plates (seriously). I'll admit that finding SLF, SLC or SLW air variables nowadays can be very difficult. But they were never that common even in the heydey of tube radios. I recall making a "crystal set" using nothing more than a razor blade, safety pin, and pencil "lead" and a tuning coil (and of course, a set of high-impedance headphones). You can build a small capacitor using nothing more than waxed paper and aluminum foil. The web contains lots of sites dedicated to the resurrection of some old practice or the other. There are instructions on how to build electrolytic rectifiers (used as "B" battery substitutes for early transmitters), all manner of "crystal" sets, including sources for minerals, even early solid state negative resistance devices (long before the junction transistor). There's even a Yahoo group dedicated to construction of regenerative radio receivers. It's noteworthy that much hobbyist radio work came into flower during the darker days of the Great Depression, when money was very scarce. Information on tube construction is perhaps more readily available today thanks to the internet than at any other time. --Chuck From bdwheele at indiana.edu Sat Nov 28 14:17:04 2009 From: bdwheele at indiana.edu (Brian Wheeler) Date: Sat, 28 Nov 2009 15:17:04 -0500 Subject: FS: NeXT Cube Message-ID: <1259439424.4768.21.camel@pazuzu.kittytangles.net> I'm selling a NeXT Cube I got in a palette of stuff. I've already got a turbo color slab so I really don't need a cube :) I'm located in Bloomington, IN and I'm not going to ship this! NeXT Cube N1000A P/N: 2115 S/N: ABA0003988 * 68040 @ 25MHz * 64M RAM * Floppy * Broken 5.25 FH HD. Spins up then down. I'll supply a 2G HH Drive * Non-ADB Keyboard * Non-ADB Mouse -- damaged. It looks like someone let it sit in glue or a solvent. The ball still rolls, but I can't open it to check to see if the rollers work. * Monochrome monitor. Readable, but like all monitors of that vintage its a bit faded. I'm asking $150 Brian From pontus at update.uu.se Sat Nov 28 14:56:50 2009 From: pontus at update.uu.se (Pontus) Date: Sat, 28 Nov 2009 21:56:50 +0100 Subject: Straight-8 Rack available In-Reply-To: References: <4B1145D1.6000007@update.uu.se> <4B117457.2010206@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <4B118E92.7030904@update.uu.se> William Donzelli wrote: >>> Looking at the rack, since a Straight-8 has huge backplanes that fill >>> the top of the rack, there are no upper doors - I'm wondering if >>> that's an -8/S cabinet. >>> >>> >> Hmm you are right, It can't be a PDP-8 >> > > You guys can not tell the top of the Dallas mystery rack has two > doors, side by side? They are not woodgrain, but blue - I have seen > Straight-8s like this, with no woodgrain. Maybe it is for another > piece of DEC gear, but the clues tell me Straight-8. > > -- > Will > True, it is the proportions of the upper half to the lower half that don't match. Also the lower part of the Straight-8 does not have doors and the upper doors are attached to the computer, if the computer is gone, I would expect that the doors would be gone too. http://www.megabaud.fi/~setala/pics/pdp8-6p.jpg /Pontus. From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sat Nov 28 15:36:06 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 28 Nov 2009 16:36:06 -0500 Subject: Straight-8 Rack available In-Reply-To: <4B118E92.7030904@update.uu.se> References: <4B1145D1.6000007@update.uu.se> <4B117457.2010206@update.uu.se> <4B118E92.7030904@update.uu.se> Message-ID: > True, it is the proportions of the upper half to the lower half that > don't match. Also the lower part of the Straight-8 does not have doors > and the upper doors are attached to the computer, if the computer is > gone, I would expect that the doors would be gone too. > > http://www.megabaud.fi/~setala/pics/pdp8-6p.jpg Look at all that airspace in this machine. Certainly a Straight-8 could fit in the Dallas mystery rack. Realize that DEC in 1960s was fond of never standardizing their components (especially paint jobs and cosmetics). Minor variations in the racks really do not matter. -- Will From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Nov 28 15:58:06 2009 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Sat, 28 Nov 2009 14:58:06 -0700 Subject: Nand gate computer. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B119CEE.4060203@jetnet.ab.ca> >> PPS Let my know if you find a few thousand 74LS13's >> for pennies each and I will build that TTL computer I always >> wanted. :) > > I am wondering why you'd want a lot of 4-input NAND schmitt triggers to > make a computer. Lots of NAND gates, sure.. > Ok , I'll cheat, I plan to some RAM and EEPROM and leds. Thinking about it, make that 74LS14's and 74LS13's and a lot of Flip/Chip size PCB's. While lots of parts, the modules would be easy to test at home. Ben. From cclist at sydex.com Sat Nov 28 16:17:11 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 28 Nov 2009 14:17:11 -0800 Subject: Nand gate computer. In-Reply-To: <4B119CEE.4060203@jetnet.ab.ca> References: , <4B119CEE.4060203@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4B1130E7.30779.132EA9E@cclist.sydex.com> On 28 Nov 2009 at 14:58, Ben wrote: > Ok , I'll cheat, I plan to some RAM and EEPROM and leds. > Thinking about it, make that 74LS14's and 74LS13's and a lot > of Flip/Chip size PCB's. While lots of parts, the modules > would be easy to test at home. Why the emphasis on schmitt trigger devices? They won't save you from bad design practices. --Chuck From wmaddox at pacbell.net Sat Nov 28 17:08:20 2009 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Sat, 28 Nov 2009 15:08:20 -0800 (PST) Subject: Straight-8 Rack available In-Reply-To: <4B1145D1.6000007@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <885586.93432.qm@web82606.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Thanks for posting the pointer! I contacted the seller and hopefully will be snagging this. --Bill --- On Sat, 11/28/09, Pontus wrote: > From: Pontus > Subject: Straight-8 Rack available > To: "On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Date: Saturday, November 28, 2009, 7:46 AM > Hi. > > Not mine, not affiliated, but I think a serious collector > should pick > this up! > > http://dallas.craigslist.org/ftw/ele/1484014610.html > > Cheers, > Pontus. > From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Nov 28 17:39:22 2009 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Sat, 28 Nov 2009 16:39:22 -0700 Subject: Nand gate computer. In-Reply-To: <4B1130E7.30779.132EA9E@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4B119CEE.4060203@jetnet.ab.ca> <4B1130E7.30779.132EA9E@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4B11B4AA.4080705@jetnet.ab.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote: > Why the emphasis on schmitt trigger devices? They won't save you > from bad design practices. Switch debouncing is needed for the front panel. > --Chuck > If I do get back to a computer design next spring, it most likely will be 2901 bit slice with EEPROM microcode loaded from Switch Register. Fewer PCB's the better. From cclist at sydex.com Sat Nov 28 17:53:16 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 28 Nov 2009 15:53:16 -0800 Subject: Nand gate computer. In-Reply-To: <4B11B4AA.4080705@jetnet.ab.ca> References: , <4B1130E7.30779.132EA9E@cclist.sydex.com>, <4B11B4AA.4080705@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4B11476C.4233.18AE0ED@cclist.sydex.com> On 28 Nov 2009 at 16:39, Ben wrote: > Chuck Guzis wrote: > > > Why the emphasis on schmitt trigger devices? They won't save you > > from bad design practices. > > Switch debouncing is needed for the front panel. Schmitt triggers aren't the only way (or even the best way) to debounce. Why should that drive your entire parts choice? --Chuck From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Nov 28 18:20:57 2009 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Sat, 28 Nov 2009 17:20:57 -0700 Subject: Nand gate computer. In-Reply-To: <4B11476C.4233.18AE0ED@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4B1130E7.30779.132EA9E@cclist.sydex.com>, <4B11B4AA.4080705@jetnet.ab.ca> <4B11476C.4233.18AE0ED@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4B11BE69.5060609@jetnet.ab.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote: > Schmitt triggers aren't the only way (or even the best way) to > debounce. Why should that drive your entire parts choice? The joke here, is I only use ONE part. > --Chuck I suspect that however many classic computers only used a handfull of different type chips. Ben. From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sat Nov 28 18:51:47 2009 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sat, 28 Nov 2009 16:51:47 -0800 Subject: Nand gate computer. In-Reply-To: <4B11BE69.5060609@jetnet.ab.ca> References: , , <4B1130E7.30779.132EA9E@cclist.sydex.com>, , <4B11B4AA.4080705@jetnet.ab.ca>, <4B11476C.4233.18AE0ED@cclist.sydex.com>, <4B11BE69.5060609@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: ---------------------------------------- > From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca > > Chuck Guzis wrote: > >> Schmitt triggers aren't the only way (or even the best way) to >> debounce. Why should that drive your entire parts choice? > > The joke here, is I only use ONE part. > >> --Chuck > I suspect that however many classic computers > only used a handfull of different type chips. > Ben. > Hi If only one IC, I'd pick 7438's. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail: Trusted email with Microsoft's powerful SPAM protection. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/177141664/direct/01/ http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/177141664/direct/01/ From cclist at sydex.com Sat Nov 28 19:09:16 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 28 Nov 2009 17:09:16 -0800 Subject: Nand gate computer. In-Reply-To: References: , <4B11BE69.5060609@jetnet.ab.ca>, Message-ID: <4B11593C.15243.1D07790@cclist.sydex.com> On 28 Nov 2009 at 16:51, dwight elvey wrote: > If only one IC, I'd pick 7438's. Or 7412s... Or maybe 82S129 (program your own truth tables) --Chuck From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Nov 28 18:48:53 2009 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sat, 28 Nov 2009 17:48:53 -0700 Subject: Straight-8 Rack available In-Reply-To: <885586.93432.qm@web82606.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <885586.93432.qm@web82606.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: At 3:08 PM -0800 11/28/09, William Maddox wrote: >Thanks for posting the pointer! I contacted the seller and >hopefully will be snagging this. Please let us know if you rescue it. I'm strangely concerned about this rack. I have fears of some Redneck or Windows user getting it and trashing it. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Nov 28 19:55:43 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 28 Nov 2009 20:55:43 -0500 Subject: Straight-8 Rack available In-Reply-To: References: <885586.93432.qm@web82606.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <50DFD7C8-3137-4F84-B321-250D9E2EF7C9@neurotica.com> On Nov 28, 2009, at 7:48 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: >> Thanks for posting the pointer! I contacted the seller and >> hopefully will be snagging this. > > Please let us know if you rescue it. I'm strangely concerned about > this rack. I have fears of some Redneck or Windows user getting it > and trashing it. Don't worry about that. I've been chatting with the seller; he won't do anything bad with it. I've already made arrangements for him to hold it so I can pick it up in a couple of months, and have been speaking with Bill Maddox as well. Worst case is I'll end up picking it up myself. It will not be trashed. -Dave > -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sat Nov 28 20:02:32 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 28 Nov 2009 21:02:32 -0500 Subject: Straight-8 Rack available In-Reply-To: <50DFD7C8-3137-4F84-B321-250D9E2EF7C9@neurotica.com> References: <885586.93432.qm@web82606.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <50DFD7C8-3137-4F84-B321-250D9E2EF7C9@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On 11/28/09, Dave McGuire wrote: > Don't worry about that. I've been chatting with the seller; he > won't do anything bad with it. I've already made arrangements for > him to hold it so I can pick it up in a couple of months, and have > been speaking with Bill Maddox as well. Worst case is I'll end up > picking it up myself. It will not be trashed. Congrats to whomever gets it. It's certainly an unusual find - just too from me to even contemplate trying to get it. I'll be curious to learn if there are any part number or serial number plates stuck on the back anywhere. -ethan From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Nov 28 19:18:28 2009 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sat, 28 Nov 2009 18:18:28 -0700 Subject: Straight-8 Rack available In-Reply-To: <50DFD7C8-3137-4F84-B321-250D9E2EF7C9@neurotica.com> References: <885586.93432.qm@web82606.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <50DFD7C8-3137-4F84-B321-250D9E2EF7C9@neurotica.com> Message-ID: At 8:55 PM -0500 11/28/09, Dave McGuire wrote: >On Nov 28, 2009, at 7:48 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: >>>Thanks for posting the pointer! I contacted the seller and >>>hopefully will be snagging this. >> >>Please let us know if you rescue it. I'm strangely concerned about >>this rack. I have fears of some Redneck or Windows user getting it >>and trashing it. > > Don't worry about that. I've been chatting with the seller; he >won't do anything bad with it. I've already made arrangements for >him to hold it so I can pick it up in a couple of months, and have >been speaking with Bill Maddox as well. Worst case is I'll end up >picking it up myself. It will not be trashed. Thanks for the info Dave! I'll crawl back under my rock and go back to not worrying about anything Classic Computer related! :-) Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From ajp166 at verizon.net Sat Nov 28 22:31:24 2009 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Sat, 28 Nov 2009 23:31:24 -0500 Subject: Nand gate computer. In-Reply-To: <4B11BE69.5060609@jetnet.ab.ca> References: , <4B1130E7.30779.132EA9E@cclist.sydex.com>, <4B11B4AA.4080705@jetnet.ab.ca> <4B11476C.4233.18AE0ED@cclist.sydex.com> <4B11BE69.5060609@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4B11F91C.1040402@verizon.net> one example is the Apollo AGC used nothing but 3 input RTL nor gates if memory serves. The idea was then they only had to qualify one part when ICs were still pretty new and not so reliable(mid 60s). NOTE: by time the AGC flew it was already a full generation behind. Generally it would be overall easier and more efficient of a wider group of parts were used even if they were still SSI (7400 Quad nand, 7404 hex inverter, 7432 quad OR and maybe 7474 dual Dflop) Allison Ben wrote: > Chuck Guzis wrote: > >> Schmitt triggers aren't the only way (or even the best way) to >> debounce. Why should that drive your entire parts choice? > > The joke here, is I only use ONE part. > >> --Chuck > I suspect that however many classic computers > only used a handfull of different type chips. > Ben. > > > > From geneb at deltasoft.com Sat Nov 28 22:40:09 2009 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sat, 28 Nov 2009 20:40:09 -0800 (PST) Subject: Fido ... (was Ten Year Rule) In-Reply-To: <87B5DC42-4B99-4C79-BA68-5B835A01BD18@feedle.net> References: , , , , <87B5DC42-4B99-4C79-BA68-5B835A01BD18@feedle.net> Message-ID: > > In my experience, into the back pockets of the person running the local > Network and/or particular well-connected Nodes. > That's too bad. Net 138 wasn't like that at all. Everyone pitched in to cover the cost of the net's mail & echomail processor ("Ginger" was the machine's name). > > A case study could be made exclusively around WWIV boards trying to get > access to FidoNet once it was figured out how to get it to work (on the > WWIV side). I personally know of multiple Networks that made it much > harder on WWIV-based boards solely because.. they were WWIV-based > boards. Part of the explosion of WWIVnet and WWIVlink in the late 80's > and early 90's is directly attributable to this: if FidoNet wasn't > hostile to WWIV sysops, it's likely that WWIVnet would have ever > achieved the level of traction that it did. Now that's really interesting. It's almost 180 degrees from what I experienced back then. Many alternate WWIV networks (ICENet, etc) were formed because WWIVNet people were being thrown off the net because they were also members of Fidonet. I do know that WWIV was seen (rightly or not) as the software of choice for "pirate" boards. That was often used as an excuse to prevent WWIV boards from getting Fidonet numbers - this never happened in Net 138 that I knew of however. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From cclist at sydex.com Sat Nov 28 23:10:28 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 28 Nov 2009 21:10:28 -0800 Subject: Nand gate computer. In-Reply-To: <4B11F91C.1040402@verizon.net> References: , <4B11BE69.5060609@jetnet.ab.ca>, <4B11F91C.1040402@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4B1191C4.30144.2AD489E@cclist.sydex.com> On 28 Nov 2009 at 23:31, allison wrote: > Generally it would be overall easier and more efficient of a wider > group of parts were used even if they were still SSI (7400 Quad nand, > 7404 hex inverter, 7432 quad OR and maybe 7474 dual Dflop) After the proliferation of SSI types in the late 60s and early 70s, the wheel turned again. I recall that Neil Lincoln at CDC was working on a supercomputer design using CMOS parts that he referred to as "Chiclets" (after the chewing gum) in that the ICs for the system were about the same size as a Chiclet and only 13 types were used; i.e. a complete replacement set could be contained in a Chiclet box. I seem to recall that a test vehicle was a version of the CDC 6400 that would fit on a tabletop, more or less. This was about 1976 or so. --Chuck From IanK at vulcan.com Sun Nov 29 00:03:55 2009 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Sat, 28 Nov 2009 22:03:55 -0800 Subject: Straight-8 Rack available In-Reply-To: <4B118E92.7030904@update.uu.se> References: <4B1145D1.6000007@update.uu.se> <4B117457.2010206@update.uu.se> , <4B118E92.7030904@update.uu.se> Message-ID: It looks a bit like the main cabinet for our PDP-7. The typeface of the top logo matches, as do the apparent dimensions. I'm not saying it might not have been for an early -8, but the Straight 8s I've seen weren't in anything like this. The side-by-side blue doors are typical -7. Will, thanks for rescuing this! Regardless of how it's ultimately identified, it's clearly Old Stuffe. -- Ian ________________________________________ From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Pontus [pontus at update.uu.se] Sent: Saturday, November 28, 2009 12:56 PM To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Straight-8 Rack available William Donzelli wrote: >>> Looking at the rack, since a Straight-8 has huge backplanes that fill >>> the top of the rack, there are no upper doors - I'm wondering if >>> that's an -8/S cabinet. >>> >>> >> Hmm you are right, It can't be a PDP-8 >> > > You guys can not tell the top of the Dallas mystery rack has two > doors, side by side? They are not woodgrain, but blue - I have seen > Straight-8s like this, with no woodgrain. Maybe it is for another > piece of DEC gear, but the clues tell me Straight-8. > > -- > Will > True, it is the proportions of the upper half to the lower half that don't match. Also the lower part of the Straight-8 does not have doors and the upper doors are attached to the computer, if the computer is gone, I would expect that the doors would be gone too. http://www.megabaud.fi/~setala/pics/pdp8-6p.jpg /Pontus. From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sun Nov 29 00:09:00 2009 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sat, 28 Nov 2009 22:09:00 -0800 Subject: Nand gate computer. In-Reply-To: <4B11593C.15243.1D07790@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4B11BE69.5060609@jetnet.ab.ca>, , , <4B11593C.15243.1D07790@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > From: cclist at sydex.com > > On 28 Nov 2009 at 16:51, dwight elvey wrote: > >> If only one IC, I'd pick 7438's. > > Or 7412s... > > Or maybe 82S129 (program your own truth tables) > > --Chuck > Hi I still like the 38s the best. Open collector parts can do so much more than just a logic function. A wired function can be added by combining two outputs. This could be a mux or simply a logic operation. Having to use an IC for every logical operation is a pain. Of course, using the 82S129's has a nice tang ;) Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Windows 7: It works the way you want. Learn more. http://www.microsoft.com/Windows/windows-7/default.aspx?ocid=PID24727::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WWL_WIN_evergreen:112009v2 From cclist at sydex.com Sun Nov 29 00:46:05 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 28 Nov 2009 22:46:05 -0800 Subject: Nand gate computer. In-Reply-To: References: , <4B11593C.15243.1D07790@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4B11A82D.20057.304D556@cclist.sydex.com> On 28 Nov 2009 at 22:09, dwight elvey wrote: > I still like the 38s the best. Open collector > parts can do so much more than just a logic function. The '12 is an OC 3-input NAND. I like 3-input gates better because they lower the part count in circuits like J-K flip flops. If you admit diodes to the mix, there's no reason that 38s or even 06s wouldn't work just as well. RTL and DTL were great when it came to wired-ORing. That 903 wasn't a bad choice for the AGC. --Chuck From c.murray.mccullough at gmail.com Sat Nov 28 15:49:20 2009 From: c.murray.mccullough at gmail.com (Murray McCullough) Date: Sat, 28 Nov 2009 16:49:20 -0500 Subject: Different take on 10 Yr. 'RULE' Message-ID: A different interpretation on the 10 Yr. 'Rule'. Many experts, CPU mag being one, say that we shouldn't store info on CDs, DVDs, etc. as they may be unreadable in less than 10 yrs. Wouldn't it be sad if we lost valuable information on the classic computing era? I guess old-fashioned paper is the best way after all! Let's hope these technologies last longer than my Zip-drive and disks that can't be read because the drive died and I can't get it fixed or at the very least at a decent price. So Sad! Murray-- From hachti at hachti.de Sun Nov 29 06:56:00 2009 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Sun, 29 Nov 2009 13:56:00 +0100 Subject: DEC CR10 card reader info? Message-ID: <4B126F60.9030601@hachti.de> Hi, does anyone have information (docs) on the DEC CR10 card reader? It has a Soroban "Desk Top Card Reader", type "ERD" inside. I could rescue that machine. But it's not that small. So I would like to know if anybody thinks I could use this with another computer than a PDP10 (without using too much modern interfacing). If anybody else is interested in the machine, let me know. It's located in northern Germany. Best wishes, Philipp -- http://www.hachti.de From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sun Nov 29 09:56:00 2009 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sun, 29 Nov 2009 07:56:00 -0800 Subject: Nand gate computer. In-Reply-To: <4B11A82D.20057.304D556@cclist.sydex.com> References: , , <4B11593C.15243.1D07790@cclist.sydex.com>, , , <4B11A82D.20057.304D556@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > From: cclist at sydex.com > > On 28 Nov 2009 at 22:09, dwight elvey wrote: > >> I still like the 38s the best. Open collector >> parts can do so much more than just a logic function. > > The '12 is an OC 3-input NAND. I like 3-input gates better because > they lower the part count in circuits like J-K flip flops. If you > admit diodes to the mix, there's no reason that 38s or even 06s > wouldn't work just as well. > > RTL and DTL were great when it came to wired-ORing. That 903 wasn't > a bad choice for the AGC. > > --Chuck > Hi Chuck Good point diodes and o6s makes the ultimate in low tec computing. Diodes can be had for less than a penny each. One resistor and a pile of diodes makes a reasonable gate. All that is needed is an inverting and buffering function. The 06 fits the bill. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Windows 7: It works the way you want. Learn more. http://www.microsoft.com/Windows/windows-7/default.aspx?ocid=PID24727::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WWL_WIN_evergreen:112009v2 From ggs at shiresoft.com Sun Nov 29 10:45:53 2009 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Sun, 29 Nov 2009 08:45:53 -0800 Subject: Different take on 10 Yr. 'RULE' In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Nov 28, 2009, at 1:49 PM, Murray McCullough wrote: > A different interpretation on the 10 Yr. 'Rule'. Many experts, CPU mag > being one, say that we shouldn't store info on CDs, DVDs, etc. as they > may be unreadable in less than 10 yrs. Wouldn't it be sad if we lost > valuable information on the classic computing era? I guess > old-fashioned paper is the best way after all! Let's hope these > technologies last longer than my Zip-drive and disks that can't be > read because the drive died and I can't get it fixed or at the very > least at a decent price. So Sad! My strategy is to have *many* duplicates of the data and that all of the bits need to be spinning. If they're not spinning, they don't exist! I move all the data to new technology every few years (about to do another upgrade since I'm about out of space on my 6TB array). TTFN - Guy From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sun Nov 29 11:13:02 2009 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sun, 29 Nov 2009 09:13:02 -0800 Subject: Nand gate computer. References: , , <4B11593C.15243.1D07790@cclist.sydex.com>, , , <4B11A82D.20057.304D556@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4B12AB9D.FB593F3F@cs.ubc.ca> dwight elvey wrote: > > > > The '12 is an OC 3-input NAND. I like 3-input gates better because > > they lower the part count in circuits like J-K flip flops. If you > > admit diodes to the mix, there's no reason that 38s or even 06s > > wouldn't work just as well. > > > > RTL and DTL were great when it came to wired-ORing. That 903 wasn't > > a bad choice for the AGC. > > > > --Chuck > > Hi Chuck > Good point diodes and o6s makes the ultimate in > low tec computing. Diodes can be had for less than a > penny each. One resistor and a pile of diodes makes > a reasonable gate. All that is needed is an inverting > and buffering function. The 06 fits the bill. .. although there is the speed or power tradeoff to be made with resistive pullups. A number of early Japanese calcs were made from a logic combination of SSI IC NOR gates and discrete-diode AND gates to make AND-NOR logic. Quite flexible in that the AND gates could have as many inputs as needed, canonical state machines were easy. The calcs are packed with hundreds of diodes and a few ICs. Some other early IC calcs used only half-a-dozen-or-so IC types; 2,3,4-in gates and dual-FF for example. The HP2116 machines used only around a dozen IC types. Could be interesting to look at the first IC-based PDP-8 for how many IC types were used. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sun Nov 29 12:02:16 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun, 29 Nov 2009 13:02:16 -0500 Subject: Nand gate computer. In-Reply-To: <4B12AB9D.FB593F3F@cs.ubc.ca> References: <4B11593C.15243.1D07790@cclist.sydex.com> <4B11A82D.20057.304D556@cclist.sydex.com> <4B12AB9D.FB593F3F@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: On 11/29/09, Brent Hilpert wrote: > Could be interesting to look at the first IC-based PDP-8 for how many IC > types were used. A substantial number. There are a couple of dozen different M-series FLIP CHIPs in an -8/L or -8/i, and the double-height modules (M706, M707, M220...) are somewhat complex. M111s are simple, but that's one type of many, each with different TTL parts. Off the top of my head, the most abundant part numbers are the '00, '04, '10, and '74, but there are many, many more present. -ethan From cclist at sydex.com Sun Nov 29 12:13:21 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 29 Nov 2009 10:13:21 -0800 Subject: Nand gate computer. In-Reply-To: References: , <4B12AB9D.FB593F3F@cs.ubc.ca>, Message-ID: <4B124941.1787.2763EC@cclist.sydex.com> I think a great example of a computer using a small number of active circuit elements was the Packard Bell 250. According to Ed Thelen's site, implemented with 400 transistors and 2500 diodes. It's a bit- serial design using delay line memory, but still very impressive. --Chuck From roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk Sun Nov 29 12:29:28 2009 From: roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk (Roger Holmes) Date: Sun, 29 Nov 2009 18:29:28 +0000 Subject: Nand gate computer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8A1A56D9-2E73-4168-BC7B-F584FC5E102E@microspot.co.uk> On 29 Nov 2009, at 18:00, cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > > Message: 2 > Date: Sat, 28 Nov 2009 22:46:05 -0800 > From: "Chuck Guzis" > Subject: RE: Nand gate computer. > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Message-ID: <4B11A82D.20057.304D556 at cclist.sydex.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII > > On 28 Nov 2009 at 22:09, dwight elvey wrote: > >> I still like the 38s the best. Open collector >> parts can do so much more than just a logic function. > > The '12 is an OC 3-input NAND. I like 3-input gates better because > they lower the part count in circuits like J-K flip flops. If you > admit diodes to the mix, there's no reason that 38s or even 06s > wouldn't work just as well. > > RTL and DTL were great when it came to wired-ORing. Wire-OR is fine until you need to find out which signal is driving the input low, or should I say to logic '1' (my machine uses -6.3v = logic 1, 0v = logic 0). You need to isolate all the outputs to check them, not TOO hard on a wire wrapped machine but must be a swine if you've soldered everything together. Of course there still the other problem, if you need two or more wire-ORs from the same output, you need to buffer the outputs separately or generate the signal two or more times. From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Nov 29 13:02:30 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 29 Nov 2009 14:02:30 -0500 Subject: Nand gate computer. In-Reply-To: <4B12AB9D.FB593F3F@cs.ubc.ca> References: <4B11593C.15243.1D07790@cclist.sydex.com> <4B11A82D.20057.304D556@cclist.sydex.com> <4B12AB9D.FB593F3F@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: > Some other early IC calcs used only half-a-dozen-or-so IC types; 2,3,4-in gates > and dual-FF for example. > > The HP2116 machines used only around a dozen IC types. The Control Data 1774 uses a very small number of IC types - maybe a half dozen or so. They are very early designs for ICs, made by Interdid, CDCs chip making arm. I think the CDC 1500 series boxes also used the same technology. -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Nov 29 13:06:58 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 29 Nov 2009 14:06:58 -0500 Subject: Nand gate computer. In-Reply-To: <4B12AB9D.FB593F3F@cs.ubc.ca> References: <4B11593C.15243.1D07790@cclist.sydex.com> <4B11A82D.20057.304D556@cclist.sydex.com> <4B12AB9D.FB593F3F@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: > .. although there is the speed or power tradeoff to be made with resistive pullups. If power is not much of an issue, ECL would be a good choice as you get the wire-OR capability, plus true complementary outputs on the gates. 10105 might be quite useful. -- Will From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Nov 29 12:52:41 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 29 Nov 2009 18:52:41 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Nand gate computer. In-Reply-To: <4B11B4AA.4080705@jetnet.ab.ca> from "Ben" at Nov 28, 9 04:39:22 pm Message-ID: > > Chuck Guzis wrote: > > > Why the emphasis on schmitt trigger devices? They won't save you > > from bad design practices. > > Switch debouncing is needed for the front panel. I would much prefer to use an SR flip-flop (e.g. a pair of cross-coupled NAND gates -- 7400 or simialr) and a changeover (SPDT, Form C) swtich. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Nov 29 13:00:04 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 29 Nov 2009 19:00:04 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Nand gate computer. In-Reply-To: <4B11BE69.5060609@jetnet.ab.ca> from "Ben" at Nov 28, 9 05:20:57 pm Message-ID: > > Chuck Guzis wrote: > > > Schmitt triggers aren't the only way (or even the best way) to > > debounce. Why should that drive your entire parts choice? > > The joke here, is I only use ONE part. I think if I had to build a copmputer using only one type of chip, I'd pick an FPGA :-). OK, that's cheating... The VAX 11/730 was _largely_ built with PALs. There are some 2901s in there as well, and the 8085 stuff for the cosole processor and the microcdoe RAMs, of course, but almost all the logic is in 20 pin PALs, I always thought that was a nice hack. If I had use just one type of chip from the TTL range, it'd be a toss-up betwee nthe 74150 and 74151. Both are multiplexers, the former is a 16 input mux with 4 select inputs, the latter is an 8 input mux with 3 select inputs. Using them you can make any 4 or 3 input logic gate (combinatorial function) and by adding a feedback connection you can make SR and D-type latches. Making D-type flip-flops (pulse rather than level triggered) is a little harder, but it can be done. Although the '150 would let me make a more complicated function, it's a 24 pin package (0.6" wide, at least all the ones I've seen) as against the 16 pin (0.3" wide) pacakge for the '151. And I think the 151 exists in logic fanilies (e.g. 74F151) where the 150 doesn't. Of coruse if you let me have inverters as well, I can make any 4 input function using the '151 and a single inverter (NOT gate). But then again a '150 and an inverter would let me make any 5 input fuction. Perhaps I should really cheat and get a custom 28 pin chip made containing the functionality of a '150 and a couple of NOT gates. Or a '150 and a 2 (or 3) input NAND gate. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Nov 29 13:05:10 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 29 Nov 2009 19:05:10 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Nand gate computer. In-Reply-To: from "dwight elvey" at Nov 28, 9 10:09:00 pm Message-ID: > Hi > I still like the 38s the best. Open collector > parts can do so much more than just a logic function. It's a pity there never as a TTL multiplexer with open-collector outputs. That would be an ideal device. I think I'll change my earlier choice and go for a '251 (same as a '151, but with 3-state outputs). AFAIK there never was a 3-state output version of the '150. A '251 can be used (wastefully) as a 3-state driver (onto shared buses), as a 3-input logic gate, and so on. -tony From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Nov 29 14:17:35 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 29 Nov 2009 15:17:35 -0500 Subject: Straight-8 cabinet Message-ID: Well, now that it looks like the Dallas mystery cabinet is ID'd as possibly for a PDP-7, this started me thinking. Kicking around here is what I think it one of the extruded aluminum handles for a Straight-8 - one of the long ones that goes up the front door. It is (I think) the right shape, right length, and has decals MA thru MF inside. Does anyone need this for a restoration? Give me a sob story and shipping money and you can have it. -- Will From trixter at oldskool.org Sun Nov 29 14:45:44 2009 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sun, 29 Nov 2009 14:45:44 -0600 Subject: Different take on 10 Yr. 'RULE' In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B12DD78.8020901@oldskool.org> Guy Sotomayor wrote: > > My strategy is to have *many* duplicates of the data and that all of the > bits need to be spinning. If they're not spinning, they don't exist! I > move all the data to new technology every few years (about to do another > upgrade since I'm about out of space on my 6TB array). While I disagree on the bit about needing to be spinning (20 years from now, everything will be flash), I wholeheartedly agree that the data must be migrated to new technology every half-decade or full decade. Every single one of my archive mediums -- 5.25" DSDD, zip drive, hard drive(s), CDs, DVDs -- has had at least one failure somewhere. Even DLT. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Sun Nov 29 14:46:12 2009 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sun, 29 Nov 2009 14:46:12 -0600 Subject: Different take on 10 Yr. 'RULE' In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B12DD94.5010605@oldskool.org> Murray McCullough wrote: > Let's hope these > technologies last longer than my Zip-drive and disks that can't be > read because the drive died and I can't get it fixed or at the very > least at a decent price. So Sad! zip drives are $10 on ebay, have you tried a replacement drive? -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From brad at heeltoe.com Sun Nov 29 14:51:36 2009 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Sun, 29 Nov 2009 15:51:36 -0500 Subject: Cleaning packs In-Reply-To: <624966d60911241253n264b7dc5kfc0e5cbf1e1aeb6@mail.gmail.com> (sfid-20091124_155516_308069_1B0B2213) References: <01ba01ca6d38$16209270$0301a8c0@Alexandre> <965FAF64-3116-4F30-BCAE-31B88C6BE8D2@shiresoft.com> <624966d60911241253n264b7dc5kfc0e5cbf1e1aeb6@mail.gmail.com> (sfid-20091124_155516_308069_1B0B2213) Message-ID: <4B12DED8.4040104@heeltoe.com> Paul Anderson wrote: > I had a homemade > RK05 exercisor which also did alignments, but I loaned it to someone on the > list to use, reverse engineer, and make available to the list about 2 years > ago. Haven't heard from him since. It's me. I still have it. I did 1/2 the job and then fell off the planet with one of several crazy consulting gigs. Customers... always gettting in the way of my fun :-) The good news is that I recently picked up two nice RK05J's and I plan to get them operational in the near future. I previously restored an RK05 in much worse condition so I'm hip to all the foam/filter/belt/voice-coil issues. At least some of them anyway. I promise to finish the job and return your tester. I should be able to get get it done by year end. And I'll publish everything as usual. -brad From teoz at neo.rr.com Sun Nov 29 14:55:32 2009 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sun, 29 Nov 2009 15:55:32 -0500 Subject: Different take on 10 Yr. 'RULE' References: <4B12DD94.5010605@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <5346C6A24F524669A8E59953C054137C@dell8300> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Leonard" To: ; "Discussion at mail.mobygames.com :On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Sunday, November 29, 2009 3:46 PM Subject: Re: Different take on 10 Yr. 'RULE' > Murray McCullough wrote: >> Let's hope these >> technologies last longer than my Zip-drive and disks that can't be >> read because the drive died and I can't get it fixed or at the very >> least at a decent price. So Sad! > > zip drives are $10 on ebay, have you tried a replacement drive? > -- When the world comes to an end there will be nothing left but cockroaches and zip drives. I can't think of anything removable besides a floppy drive that was so mass produced If you need a zip drive (IDE) just find an old Powermac beige G3 since they generally came with one. From laurens at daemon.be Sun Nov 29 15:07:25 2009 From: laurens at daemon.be (Laurens Vets) Date: Sun, 29 Nov 2009 22:07:25 +0100 Subject: Apple II Europlus keyboard Message-ID: <4B12E28D.7070204@daemon.be> Hello everyone, After a long time, I've booted my Apple II again. However, it seems that some keys on the keyboard are not always working. I can get some to work by pressing quickly & hard a couple of times. Before I'm going to pry open the keyboard, is it "normal" that these keys don't seem to make contact? Also, I forgot the name of the recently discovered old case cleaner material, does anyone know this? Thanks in advance! From brianlanning at gmail.com Sun Nov 29 15:12:16 2009 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Sun, 29 Nov 2009 15:12:16 -0600 Subject: Apple II Europlus keyboard In-Reply-To: <4B12E28D.7070204@daemon.be> References: <4B12E28D.7070204@daemon.be> Message-ID: <6dbe3c380911291312p4b0ef876j9d40fed6d0e880bf@mail.gmail.com> On Sun, Nov 29, 2009 at 3:07 PM, Laurens Vets wrote: > Also, I forgot the name of the recently discovered old case cleaner > material, does anyone know this? > I think you mean retrobrite. It's not really a cleaner so much as an bleach/oxidizer that removes old case discoloration. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retro_brite brian From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Nov 29 15:27:42 2009 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 29 Nov 2009 13:27:42 -0800 Subject: Nand gate computer. In-Reply-To: <4B11F91C.1040402@verizon.net> References: , <4B1130E7.30779.132EA9E@cclist.sydex.com>, <4B11B4AA.4080705@jetnet.ab.ca> <4B11476C.4233.18AE0ED@cclist.sydex.com> <4B11BE69.5060609@jetnet.ab.ca> <4B11F91C.1040402@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4B12E74E.20008@brouhaha.com> allison wrote: > one example is the Apollo AGC used nothing but 3 input RTL nor > gates if memory serves. Almost every reference claims that it only used the three input RTL NOR gate, but they're actually incorrect. It contained two kinds of chips, the other of which was a core memory sense amplifier. From als at thangorodrim.de Sun Nov 29 15:15:12 2009 From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber) Date: Sun, 29 Nov 2009 22:15:12 +0100 Subject: Different take on 10 Yr. 'RULE' In-Reply-To: <4B12DD78.8020901@oldskool.org> References: <4B12DD78.8020901@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <20091129211512.GA22029@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> On Sun, Nov 29, 2009 at 02:45:44PM -0600, Jim Leonard wrote: > Guy Sotomayor wrote: >> >> My strategy is to have *many* duplicates of the data and that all of >> the bits need to be spinning. If they're not spinning, they don't >> exist! I move all the data to new technology every few years (about to >> do another upgrade since I'm about out of space on my 6TB array). > > While I disagree on the bit about needing to be spinning (20 years from > now, everything will be flash), I wholeheartedly agree that the data > must be migrated to new technology every half-decade or full decade. > Every single one of my archive mediums -- 5.25" DSDD, zip drive, hard > drive(s), CDs, DVDs -- has had at least one failure somewhere. Even DLT. Which is yet another reason to: - always keep more than one copy of your data - keep several versions if the data changes with time (so you can recover from corruptions & operator errors over larger time spans) - keep it on different media types (disks, tapes, optical ...) - ideally, keep safe offsite copies (preferrably encrypted if it isn't public data) Kind regards, Alex. -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison From dm561 at torfree.net Sun Nov 29 15:55:22 2009 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Sun, 29 Nov 2009 16:55:22 -0500 Subject: Different take on 10 Yr. 'RULE' Message-ID: <01CA7114.C1F00E20@MSE_D03> Date: Sat, 28 Nov 2009 16:49:20 -0500 From: Murray McCullough Subject: Different take on 10 Yr. 'RULE' A different interpretation on the 10 Yr. 'Rule'. Many experts, CPU mag being one, say that we shouldn't store info on CDs, DVDs, etc. as they may be unreadable in less than 10 yrs. Wouldn't it be sad if we lost valuable information on the classic computing era? I guess old-fashioned paper is the best way after all! Let's hope these technologies last longer than my Zip-drive and disks that can't be read because the drive died and I can't get it fixed or at the very least at a decent price. So Sad! Murray-- --------------Reply: Only sad if you want it to be... No problem finding a working ZIP drive for free or next to nothing these days; all kinds of them on eBay at .99 with no bids, or just ask on the various forums and I'm sure someone'll be happy to get rid of one. Never had any problems with my drives or disks, FWIW. m From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Nov 29 15:55:53 2009 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Sun, 29 Nov 2009 14:55:53 -0700 Subject: Core memory repair In-Reply-To: <4B12E74E.20008@brouhaha.com> References: , <4B1130E7.30779.132EA9E@cclist.sydex.com>, <4B11B4AA.4080705@jetnet.ab.ca> <4B11476C.4233.18AE0ED@cclist.sydex.com> <4B11BE69.5060609@jetnet.ab.ca> <4B11F91C.1040402@verizon.net> <4B12E74E.20008@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4B12EDE9.3040500@jetnet.ab.ca> Eric Smith wrote: > allison wrote: >> one example is the Apollo AGC used nothing but 3 input RTL nor >> gates if memory serves. > Almost every reference claims that it only used the three input RTL NOR > gate, but they're actually incorrect. It contained two kinds of chips, > the other of which was a core memory sense amplifier. That brings up a good question, where do you find them to repair core memory boards? I have no core memory, but suspect a important question? From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Nov 29 16:00:39 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 29 Nov 2009 17:00:39 -0500 Subject: Core memory repair In-Reply-To: <4B12EDE9.3040500@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4B1130E7.30779.132EA9E@cclist.sydex.com> <4B11B4AA.4080705@jetnet.ab.ca> <4B11476C.4233.18AE0ED@cclist.sydex.com> <4B11BE69.5060609@jetnet.ab.ca> <4B11F91C.1040402@verizon.net> <4B12E74E.20008@brouhaha.com> <4B12EDE9.3040500@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: > That brings up a good question, where do you find them to repair core memory > boards? I have no core memory, but ?suspect a important question? The obvious answer is other core memory boards. -- Will From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Nov 29 16:12:16 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 29 Nov 2009 14:12:16 -0800 (PST) Subject: Different take on 10 Yr. 'RULE' In-Reply-To: <4B12DD94.5010605@oldskool.org> References: <4B12DD94.5010605@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <20091129140458.K61165@shell.lmi.net> On Sun, 29 Nov 2009, Jim Leonard wrote: > zip drives are $10 on ebay, have you tried a replacement drive? . . . and, when you get a working one, use it just long enough to GET YOUR DATA ONTO NON-IOMEGA MEDIA! -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Nov 29 16:13:42 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 29 Nov 2009 14:13:42 -0800 (PST) Subject: Different take on 10 Yr. 'RULE' In-Reply-To: <5346C6A24F524669A8E59953C054137C@dell8300> References: <4B12DD94.5010605@oldskool.org> <5346C6A24F524669A8E59953C054137C@dell8300> Message-ID: <20091129141300.T61165@shell.lmi.net> On Sun, 29 Nov 2009, Teo Zenios wrote: > When the world comes to an end there will be nothing left but cockroaches > and zip drives. I can't think of anything removable besides a floppy drive > that was so mass produced . . . but some of the cockroaches will still be alive. From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Nov 29 16:27:31 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 29 Nov 2009 14:27:31 -0800 (PST) Subject: Different take on 10 Yr. 'RULE' In-Reply-To: <01CA7114.C1F00E20@MSE_D03> References: <01CA7114.C1F00E20@MSE_D03> Message-ID: <20091129141631.V61165@shell.lmi.net> On Sun, 29 Nov 2009, M H Stein wrote: > Only sad if you want it to be... > > No problem finding a working ZIP drive for free or next to nothing > these days; all kinds of them on eBay at .99 with no bids, or just > ask on the various forums and I'm sure someone'll be happy to get > rid of one. Get a BUNCH of the free drives. The dead outnumber the living. Drives that tested OK may already be dead. > Never had any problems with my drives or disks, FWIW. Their Bernoulli drives seemed to be OK. But, even their ZIP drives were not their least reliable product. I bought a NEW Ditto 3200 for backup. Their "tech support" required payment BEFORE reaching a human, with a promise of reimbursement if they acknowledged the problem as being theirs. There was literally no way to ask them whether the drive supported the Verbatim "extended" media. At Comdex, I cornered one of their people and he gave me a copy of the "updated" software. The drive did not work long enough to get the software loaded. How about their "Jaz" drives? their "click" drives? In which the "click of death" was administered DURING manufacturing. From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sun Nov 29 16:29:19 2009 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sun, 29 Nov 2009 14:29:19 -0800 Subject: Nand gate computer In-Reply-To: <8A1A56D9-2E73-4168-BC7B-F584FC5E102E@microspot.co.uk> References: , <8A1A56D9-2E73-4168-BC7B-F584FC5E102E@microspot.co.uk> Message-ID: ---------------------------------------- ---snip--- > Wire-OR is fine until you need to find out which signal is driving the input low, or should I say to logic '1' (my machine uses -6.3v = logic 1, 0v = logic 0). You need to isolate all the outputs to check them, not TOO hard on a wire wrapped machine but must be a swine if you've soldered everything together. Of course there still the other problem, if you need two or more wire-ORs from the same output, you need to buffer the outputs separately or generate the signal two or more times. > HP had a clever probe that could actually measure the direction of a few milliamperes on an IC lead. I use one of these years ago while at Intel. I've not seen one since. I suspect that it is because it still took an experienced trouble shooter to actually use it effectively. It didn't make a trouble shooter out of an idiot but was a handy tool for a trouble shooter. It did this by measuring the voltage drop but I suspect that one could make a flux gate sensitive enough to detect such a current. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail: Trusted email with powerful SPAM protection. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/177141665/direct/01/ From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sun Nov 29 16:52:35 2009 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sun, 29 Nov 2009 14:52:35 -0800 Subject: Looking for a specific LED In-Reply-To: References: <4B1130E7.30779.132EA9E@cclist.sydex.com>, <4B11B4AA.4080705@jetnet.ab.ca>, <4B11476C.4233.18AE0ED@cclist.sydex.com>, <4B11BE69.5060609@jetnet.ab.ca> <4B11F91C.1040402@verizon.net>,<4B12E74E.20008@brouhaha.com> <4B12EDE9.3040500@jetnet.ab.ca>, Message-ID: Hi All I've been looking for an early LED. It is a visible red light with a gold base. I've seen many IR ones with gold bases but not the visible red ones. I believe the base was standard in the older early ones. If anyone has a scrap board with these on it, I'd love to have one. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail: Trusted email with powerful SPAM protection. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/177141665/direct/01/ From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Nov 29 17:03:05 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 29 Nov 2009 18:03:05 -0500 Subject: Looking for a specific LED In-Reply-To: References: <4B1130E7.30779.132EA9E@cclist.sydex.com>, <4B11B4AA.4080705@jetnet.ab.ca>, <4B11476C.4233.18AE0ED@cclist.sydex.com>, <4B11BE69.5060609@jetnet.ab.ca> <4B11F91C.1040402@verizon.net>, <4B12E74E.20008@brouhaha.com> <4B12EDE9.3040500@jetnet.ab.ca>, Message-ID: On Nov 29, 2009, at 5:52 PM, dwight elvey wrote: > I've been looking for an early LED. > It is a visible red light with a gold base. > I've seen many IR ones with gold bases > but not the visible red ones. I believe > the base was standard in the older early > ones. If anyone has a scrap board with these > on it, I'd love to have one. Shipping address? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Nov 29 17:05:35 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 29 Nov 2009 18:05:35 -0500 Subject: Nand gate computer In-Reply-To: References: , <8A1A56D9-2E73-4168-BC7B-F584FC5E102E@microspot.co.uk> Message-ID: On Nov 29, 2009, at 5:29 PM, dwight elvey wrote: >> Wire-OR is fine until you need to find out which signal is driving >> the input low, or should I say to logic '1' (my machine uses -6.3v >> = logic 1, 0v = logic 0). You need to isolate all the outputs to >> check them, not TOO hard on a wire wrapped machine but must be a >> swine if you've soldered everything together. Of course there >> still the other problem, if you need two or more wire-ORs from the >> same output, you need to buffer the outputs separately or generate >> the signal two or more times. > > HP had a clever probe that could actually measure the direction > of a few milliamperes on an IC lead. I use one of these > years ago while at Intel. I've not seen one since. > I suspect that it is because it still took an experienced > trouble shooter to actually use it effectively. > It didn't make a trouble shooter out of an idiot but > was a handy tool for a trouble shooter. > It did this by measuring the voltage drop but I suspect > that one could make a flux gate sensitive enough to detect > such a current. I have an HP non-contact current tracer, looks like a logic probe, was supplied in a pouch with a logic probe and pulser. It is wonderful...tremendously handy. Is that the device you're talking about? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Nov 29 17:14:25 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 29 Nov 2009 15:14:25 -0800 (PST) Subject: Nand gate computer. In-Reply-To: <4B12AB9D.FB593F3F@cs.ubc.ca> References: , , <4B11593C.15243.1D07790@cclist.sydex.com>, , , <4B11A82D.20057.304D556@cclist.sydex.com> <4B12AB9D.FB593F3F@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <20091129151323.Y61165@shell.lmi.net> On Sun, 29 Nov 2009, Brent Hilpert wrote: > A number of early Japanese calcs were made from a logic combination of SSI IC > NOR gates and discrete-diode AND gates to make AND-NOR logic. Quite flexible in > that the AND gates could have as many inputs as needed, canonical state > machines were easy. The calcs are packed with hundreds of diodes and a few ICs. > Some other early IC calcs used only half-a-dozen-or-so IC types; 2,3,4-in gates > and dual-FF for example. Would that be a suitable use for something like a 4004? :-) From cclist at sydex.com Sun Nov 29 17:16:26 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 29 Nov 2009 15:16:26 -0800 Subject: Different take on 10 Yr. 'RULE' In-Reply-To: <4B12DD94.5010605@oldskool.org> References: , <4B12DD94.5010605@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <4B12904A.13132.13CDD10@cclist.sydex.com> On 29 Nov 2009 at 14:46, Jim Leonard wrote: > Murray McCullough wrote: > > Let's hope these > > technologies last longer than my Zip-drive and disks that can't be > > read because the drive died and I can't get it fixed or at the very > > least at a decent price. So Sad! > > zip drives are $10 on ebay, have you tried a replacement drive? They're usually free on the local freecycle and $5 on craigslist here (that's the 750MB model too). This is pretty much a Mac town, so there's a lot of them out there. I listened to an interesting talk by Robert Danter of Harvard last night. Harvard is in process of digitizing their entire collection and much of his talk was given over to the influence of Google (he thinks it's good, but that they need to be watched). One question from the floor asked about preservation of digital data. He wasn't too concerned about the data itself, but was concerned that information could become "orphaned" (i.e. dis-indexed) and so be logically gone. I can see his point. As far as recovery goes, he pointed out that the bulk of the US 1960 census data was eventually recovered even though it was initially thought to be lost. I use DVD-R much less than CD-R and use the Mitsui/MAM-A "gold" media for archival discs, so I should be fine. My old QIC tapes seem to read just fine after 20 years as do my 30+ year old 8" floppies. I've never used Zip/Jaz/Sparq etc. for archival storage. Wasn't there a videodisc recording method that used a high-powered laser to burn pits into blank media? That would seem to be a good candidate for archival storage. --Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Nov 29 17:19:00 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 29 Nov 2009 18:19:00 -0500 Subject: Nand gate computer. In-Reply-To: <20091129151323.Y61165@shell.lmi.net> References: , , <4B11593C.15243.1D07790@cclist.sydex.com>, , , <4B11A82D.20057.304D556@cclist.sydex.com> <4B12AB9D.FB593F3F@cs.ubc.ca> <20091129151323.Y61165@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4F750795-433E-4F2A-A99C-5A51B089E609@neurotica.com> On Nov 29, 2009, at 6:14 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >> A number of early Japanese calcs were made from a logic >> combination of SSI IC >> NOR gates and discrete-diode AND gates to make AND-NOR logic. >> Quite flexible in >> that the AND gates could have as many inputs as needed, canonical >> state >> machines were easy. The calcs are packed with hundreds of diodes >> and a few ICs. >> Some other early IC calcs used only half-a-dozen-or-so IC types; >> 2,3,4-in gates >> and dual-FF for example. > > Would that be a suitable use for something like a 4004? :-) Only for Busicom. ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sun Nov 29 17:21:38 2009 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sun, 29 Nov 2009 15:21:38 -0800 Subject: Nand gate computer In-Reply-To: References: , , <8A1A56D9-2E73-4168-BC7B-F584FC5E102E@microspot.co.uk>, , Message-ID: ---------------------------------------- > From: mcguire at neurotica.com > > I have an HP non-contact current tracer, looks like a logic probe, > was supplied in a pouch with a logic probe and pulser. It is > wonderful...tremendously handy. Is that the device you're talking > about? > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire > Port Charlotte, FL > Hi Dave I don't think so. It was a completely passive. It had 3 or four contact pins that were springy so it could make contact. I recall using it to find an input that was shoulded to +5V. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail: Trusted email with Microsoft's powerful SPAM protection. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/177141664/direct/01/ http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/177141664/direct/01/ From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Sun Nov 29 17:30:45 2009 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun, 29 Nov 2009 23:30:45 +0000 Subject: Wanted - HP16530A docs, HP-HIL keyboard/mouse/PS2 adapter Message-ID: <4B130425.2070704@philpem.me.uk> Hi guys, I've just got my hands on a HP 16500B logic analyser mainframe, complete with a few acquisition cards (16530A 2-channel 400Msps oscilloscope and 16550A 100MHz State/500MHz Timing logic analyser). Now I'd rather like a keyboard and mouse for it... I'm aware that the HP-HIL keyboard and mouse used on the 16500B were HP-proprietary, and that they were also used on a couple of HP workstations. My question is, does anyone here have a HP-HIL keyboard, mouse, or (preferably) a mouse and keyboard pair for sale? (I'd also settle for a PS/2-to-HP-HIL adapter, if such a beast exists) I've had a quick look on Greed-bay, and it seems the only listings for HP-HIL kit are from test-and-measurement dealers whose prices are a bit... well... "out there". I could also do with the manuals for the 16530A oscilloscope card; at the least I need the Front Panel Operations Reference, but the Service Manual would be good too. I can't say I'm too fussed about the Programmer's Manual (it's on Agilent's website as a PDF), but it would be nice to have a complete set. I'll take PDF, (good quality) photocopy, or dead-tree, whatever's easiest. Thanks, -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Nov 29 17:30:52 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 29 Nov 2009 18:30:52 -0500 Subject: Different take on 10 Yr. 'RULE' In-Reply-To: <4B12904A.13132.13CDD10@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4B12DD94.5010605@oldskool.org> <4B12904A.13132.13CDD10@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > As far as recovery goes, he > pointed out that the bulk of the US 1960 census data was eventually > recovered even though it was initially thought to be lost. The data was always there and available. My Aunt (an urban planner) wrote two books using that data way back then, and often still uses the data today. She says that the getting data from the Census people has never really been a problem (except for 1890, of course). The problem was that the Census Bureau and NARA used different formats. I would bet that there also was a certain amount of petty politics involved with the "losing" and "recovery". -- Will From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Nov 29 17:43:37 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 29 Nov 2009 18:43:37 -0500 Subject: Nand gate computer In-Reply-To: References: , , <8A1A56D9-2E73-4168-BC7B-F584FC5E102E@microspot.co.uk>, , Message-ID: <4A23E585-D019-4977-89C9-890E9943583F@neurotica.com> On Nov 29, 2009, at 6:21 PM, dwight elvey wrote: >> I have an HP non-contact current tracer, looks like a logic probe, >> was supplied in a pouch with a logic probe and pulser. It is >> wonderful...tremendously handy. Is that the device you're talking >> about? > > I don't think so. It was a completely passive. > It had 3 or four contact pins that were springy > so it could make contact. > I recall using it to find an input that was > shoulded to +5V. Oh wow, completely different...I've never heard of anything like that. I'd like to know more about them if you have any more info. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sun Nov 29 18:06:50 2009 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sun, 29 Nov 2009 16:06:50 -0800 Subject: Looking for a specific LED References: <4B1130E7.30779.132EA9E@cclist.sydex.com>, <4B11B4AA.4080705@jetnet.ab.ca>, <4B11476C.4233.18AE0ED@cclist.sydex.com>, <4B11BE69.5060609@jetnet.ab.ca> <4B11F91C.1040402@verizon.net>,<4B12E74E.20008@brouhaha.com> <4B12EDE9.3040500@jetnet.ab.ca>, Message-ID: <4B130C99.482DA250@cs.ubc.ca> dwight elvey wrote: > > Hi All > I've been looking for an early LED. > It is a visible red light with a gold base. > I've seen many IR ones with gold bases > but not the visible red ones. I believe > the base was standard in the older early > ones. If anyone has a scrap board with these > on it, I'd love to have one. Like these?: http://www3.telus.net/~bhilpert/tmp/earlyLED.jpg Clear lens, lights up as just a little red dot. Stamped around the base is "842","M" & "701". Scavenged a few of them from an IBM service exerciser of some sort. (The control panel labeling was so obsure (to me at least) that I couldn't even figure out what it exercised.) From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Nov 29 18:12:21 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 29 Nov 2009 19:12:21 -0500 Subject: Looking for a specific LED In-Reply-To: <4B130C99.482DA250@cs.ubc.ca> References: <4B1130E7.30779.132EA9E@cclist.sydex.com>, <4B11B4AA.4080705@jetnet.ab.ca>, <4B11476C.4233.18AE0ED@cclist.sydex.com>, <4B11BE69.5060609@jetnet.ab.ca> <4B11F91C.1040402@verizon.net>, <4B12E74E.20008@brouhaha.com> <4B12EDE9.3040500@jetnet.ab.ca>, <4B130C99.482DA250@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: On Nov 29, 2009, at 7:06 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: >> I've been looking for an early LED. >> It is a visible red light with a gold base. >> I've seen many IR ones with gold bases >> but not the visible red ones. I believe >> the base was standard in the older early >> ones. If anyone has a scrap board with these >> on it, I'd love to have one. > > Like these?: > http://www3.telus.net/~bhilpert/tmp/earlyLED.jpg > > Clear lens, lights up as just a little red dot. > > Stamped around the base is "842","M" & "701". Monsanto MV2s. Beautiful devices. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sun Nov 29 18:31:03 2009 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sun, 29 Nov 2009 16:31:03 -0800 Subject: Looking for a specific LED References: <4B1130E7.30779.132EA9E@cclist.sydex.com>, <4B11B4AA.4080705@jetnet.ab.ca>, <4B11476C.4233.18AE0ED@cclist.sydex.com>, <4B11BE69.5060609@jetnet.ab.ca> <4B11F91C.1040402@verizon.net>, <4B12E74E.20008@brouhaha.com> <4B12EDE9.3040500@jetnet.ab.ca>, <4B130C99.482DA250@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <4B131247.B9C4FDB9@cs.ubc.ca> Dave McGuire wrote: > > On Nov 29, 2009, at 7:06 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > >> I've been looking for an early LED. > >> It is a visible red light with a gold base. > >> I've seen many IR ones with gold bases > >> but not the visible red ones. I believe > >> the base was standard in the older early > >> ones. If anyone has a scrap board with these > >> on it, I'd love to have one. > > > > Like these?: > > http://www3.telus.net/~bhilpert/tmp/earlyLED.jpg > > > > Clear lens, lights up as just a little red dot. > > > > Stamped around the base is "842","M" & "701". > > Monsanto MV2s. Beautiful devices. (Minor correction to my own msg: "1842" instead of "842". Probably the IBM part number.) Are they so unique to id them as MV2s?, I think HP was using a similar package. Yes, they are very pretty, as a device. The die is clearly visible looking through the lens and it looks so perfect when lit up. As an indicator lamp, though, they are pretty subtle, the photo exposure makes it looks brighter and more visible than it is. The funny thing about the exerciser is that, IIRC, it was manufactured a few years after much better indicator LEDs were available. From vrs at msn.com Sun Nov 29 18:31:17 2009 From: vrs at msn.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Sun, 29 Nov 2009 16:31:17 -0800 Subject: Core memory repair References: , <4B1130E7.30779.132EA9E@cclist.sydex.com>, <4B11B4AA.4080705@jetnet.ab.ca> <4B11476C.4233.18AE0ED@cclist.sydex.com> <4B11BE69.5060609@jetnet.ab.ca> <4B11F91C.1040402@verizon.net><4B12E74E.20008@brouhaha.com> <4B12EDE9.3040500@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: From: "Ben": Sent: Sunday, November 29, 2009 1:55 PM > Eric Smith wrote: >> Almost every reference claims that it only used the three input RTL >> NOR gate, but they're actually incorrect. It contained two kinds >> of chips, the other of which was a core memory sense amplifier. > > That brings up a good question, where do you find them to repair > core memory boards? I have no core memory, but suspect a important > question? I get mine on eBay. Currently auctions 370298078234 and 370298078229 are offering them, for example. Not too long ago I picked up a bunch of them there for a lot less than $15 each. Vince From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Nov 29 18:40:37 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 29 Nov 2009 19:40:37 -0500 Subject: Looking for a specific LED In-Reply-To: <4B131247.B9C4FDB9@cs.ubc.ca> References: <4B1130E7.30779.132EA9E@cclist.sydex.com>, <4B11B4AA.4080705@jetnet.ab.ca>, <4B11476C.4233.18AE0ED@cclist.sydex.com>, <4B11BE69.5060609@jetnet.ab.ca> <4B11F91C.1040402@verizon.net>, <4B12E74E.20008@brouhaha.com> <4B12EDE9.3040500@jetnet.ab.ca>, <4B130C99.482DA250@cs.ubc.ca> <4B131247.B9C4FDB9@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <691A9B45-9DF0-4B16-8DA4-E6C7D770C4A9@neurotica.com> On Nov 29, 2009, at 7:31 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: >>>> I've been looking for an early LED. >>>> It is a visible red light with a gold base. >>>> I've seen many IR ones with gold bases >>>> but not the visible red ones. I believe >>>> the base was standard in the older early >>>> ones. If anyone has a scrap board with these >>>> on it, I'd love to have one. >>> >>> Like these?: >>> http://www3.telus.net/~bhilpert/tmp/earlyLED.jpg >>> >>> Clear lens, lights up as just a little red dot. >>> >>> Stamped around the base is "842","M" & "701". >> >> Monsanto MV2s. Beautiful devices. > > (Minor correction to my own msg: "1842" instead of "842". > Probably the IBM part number.) > > Are they so unique to id them as MV2s?, I think HP was using a > similar package. I have a handful of MV2s from my childhood days. I've never seen another LED quite like them. There wasn't a whole lot of package standardization (some, but not much) for LEDs in those days. > Yes, they are very pretty, as a device. The die is clearly visible > looking > through the lens and it looks so perfect when lit up. As an > indicator lamp, > though, they are pretty subtle, the photo exposure makes it looks > brighter and > more visible than it is. I love 'em. > The funny thing about the exerciser is that, IIRC, it was > manufactured a few > years after much better indicator LEDs were available. Hmm. Inertia? Or maybe they had thousands of them in stock? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From stephane.tsacas at gmail.com Sun Nov 29 19:01:38 2009 From: stephane.tsacas at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?St=E9phane_Tsacas?=) Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2009 02:01:38 +0100 Subject: BK Back to Life! -- BK0010 / BK0011 emulator Message-ID: From: http://code.google.com/p/bkbtl/ *BKBTL* -- *BK Back to Life!* -- is BK0010/BK0011 emulator for Windows 2000/XP/Vista. BK is soviet home computer based on PDP-11 compatible processor K1801VM1. The project started on Nov. 14, 2009 and based on UKNCBTL code. The emulator works under Windows 2000/2003/2008/XP/Vista. Written for Win32 and requires Unicode support. Current status: Beta, under development. Emulated: - CPU (still closer to 1801VM2) - Motherboard (partially) - Screen -- black and white mode, color mode, short mode (except the color mode palettes) - Keyboard (but mapped not all BK keys) - Reading from tape (WAV file) -- Stephane http://updatedoften.blogspot.com/ From curt at atarimuseum.com Sun Nov 29 19:16:02 2009 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Sun, 29 Nov 2009 20:16:02 -0500 Subject: BK Back to Life! -- BK0010 / BK0011 emulator In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B131CD2.1040802@atarimuseum.com> Cool -- a look at another piece of technology stolen by the Soviets... St?phane Tsacas wrote: > From: http://code.google.com/p/bkbtl/ > > *BKBTL* -- *BK Back to Life!* -- is > BK0010/BK0011 emulator > for Windows 2000/XP/Vista. BK is soviet home computer based on PDP-11 > compatible processor K1801VM1. The project started on Nov. 14, 2009 and > based on UKNCBTL code. > > The emulator works under Windows 2000/2003/2008/XP/Vista. Written for Win32 > and requires Unicode support. > > Current status: Beta, under development. > > Emulated: > > - CPU (still closer to 1801VM2) > - Motherboard (partially) > - Screen -- black and white mode, color mode, short mode (except the > color mode palettes) > - Keyboard (but mapped not all BK keys) > - Reading from tape (WAV file) > > > From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Nov 29 19:21:51 2009 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Sun, 29 Nov 2009 18:21:51 -0700 Subject: Looking for a specific LED In-Reply-To: <4B130C99.482DA250@cs.ubc.ca> References: <4B1130E7.30779.132EA9E@cclist.sydex.com>, <4B11B4AA.4080705@jetnet.ab.ca>, <4B11476C.4233.18AE0ED@cclist.sydex.com>, <4B11BE69.5060609@jetnet.ab.ca> <4B11F91C.1040402@verizon.net>, <4B12E74E.20008@brouhaha.com> <4B12EDE9.3040500@jetnet.ab.ca>, <4B130C99.482DA250@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <4B131E2F.8040500@jetnet.ab.ca> Brent Hilpert wrote: > Scavenged a few of them from an IBM service exerciser > of some sort. (The control panel labeling was so obsure > (to me at least) that I couldn't even figure out what it > exercised.) > Demons :) From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Sun Nov 29 19:44:18 2009 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sun, 29 Nov 2009 20:44:18 -0500 Subject: Different take on 10 Yr. 'RULE' In-Reply-To: <01CA7114.C1F00E20@MSE_D03> References: <01CA7114.C1F00E20@MSE_D03> Message-ID: <4B132372.1010208@compsys.to> >M H Stein wrote: >Date: Sat, 28 Nov 2009 16:49:20 -0500 >From: Murray McCullough >Subject: Different take on 10 Yr. 'RULE' > >A different interpretation on the 10 Yr. 'Rule'. Many experts, CPU mag >being one, say that we shouldn't store info on CDs, DVDs, etc. as they >may be unreadable in less than 10 yrs. Wouldn't it be sad if we lost >valuable information on the classic computing era? I guess >old-fashioned paper is the best way after all! Let's hope these >technologies last longer than my Zip-drive and disks that can't be >read because the drive died and I can't get it fixed or at the very >least at a decent price. So Sad! > >Murray-- > >--------------Reply: >Only sad if you want it to be... > >No problem finding a working ZIP drive for free or next to nothing >these days; all kinds of them on eBay at .99 with no bids, or just >ask on the various forums and I'm sure someone'll be happy to get >rid of one. > >Never had any problems with my drives or disks, FWIW. > I am still running under Windows 98SE and will soon be upgrading to Windows XP on a Q9650 CPU. There already is a SCSI host adapter on the new system and I am wondering if anyone can remember if they were able to install the SCSI Insider software from Iomega (the was included with the 100 MB Zip drives) under Windows XP? This software allowed software access to a WRITE PROTECT feature along with several other features. It worked very well under W98SE and I am hoping that the software will also work under WXP. Can anyone comment? I have a number of these Zip media which I used to support a DEC system running RT-11 and TSX-PLUS. There was a CMD 200/TM SCSI host adapter with a small SCSI hard drives and a 100 MB SCSI Zip drive (instead of an RX50 floppy drive) for the removable media. If I remember the situation correctly (around 1998), the original hard drive was the RD53 which had been failing far too often at that point. I think that the SCSI hard drives that were used were around 100 MB which, along with the 100 MB SCSI Zip drives, was able to provide a complete backup of the hard drives. I never found any way to toggle the Zip media under RT-11, only under W98SE. If anyone did manage that on real DEC hardware (well with a CQD SCSI host adapter on a DEC PDP-11/73 in a BA23 box), it would be appreciated, not that it is very helpful these days. I don't think I have bothered with the Zip drives for a while, so I guess that I should keep the W98SE system around until all of the Zip drives are checked. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sun Nov 29 19:50:41 2009 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sun, 29 Nov 2009 17:50:41 -0800 Subject: Looking for a specific LED References: <4B1130E7.30779.132EA9E@cclist.sydex.com>, <4B11B4AA.4080705@jetnet.ab.ca>, <4B11476C.4233.18AE0ED@cclist.sydex.com>, <4B11BE69.5060609@jetnet.ab.ca> <4B11F91C.1040402@verizon.net>, <4B12E74E.20008@brouhaha.com> <4B12EDE9.3040500@jetnet.ab.ca>, <4B130C99.482DA250@cs.ubc.ca> <4B131247.B9C4FDB9@cs.ubc.ca> <691A9B45-9DF0-4B16-8DA4-E6C7D770C4A9@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4B1324F0.DCF3653E@cs.ubc.ca> Dave McGuire wrote: > > On Nov 29, 2009, at 7:31 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote:> >>> > >>> Stamped around the base is "842","M" & "701". > >> > >> Monsanto MV2s. Beautiful devices. > > > > (Minor correction to my own msg: "1842" instead of "842". > > Probably the IBM part number.) > > > > Are they so unique to id them as MV2s?, I think HP was using a > > similar package. > > I have a handful of MV2s from my childhood days. I've never seen > another LED quite like them. There wasn't a whole lot of package > standardization (some, but not much) for LEDs in those days. This page suggests they were from HP, the 1842 part of the number matches. http://www.decadecounter.com/vta/tubepage.php?item=39&user=0 http://www.decadecounter.com/vta/articleview.php?item=525 The top contact on the ones I have is the star as shown there, rather than the simple circle of the MV2. Something similar also shows up in the 1976 HP Optoelectronics databook. The MV2 is further down the page; looks the MV2 is more significant historically. Also for the MV2: http://ledmuseum.home.att.net/1960.htm From curt at atarimuseum.com Sun Nov 29 22:11:05 2009 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Sun, 29 Nov 2009 23:11:05 -0500 Subject: DEC Keyboard internals/hardware info... In-Reply-To: References: , , , , <87B5DC42-4B99-4C79-BA68-5B835A01BD18@feedle.net> Message-ID: <4B1345D9.2020401@atarimuseum.com> Any know of a site that has the full hardware technicals on the DEC keyboards? I want to try interfacing one to ATMEGA MCU for a potential keyboard interface, but I need to know its protocol, timing, etc.... Curt > From rivie at ridgenet.net Sun Nov 29 23:44:10 2009 From: rivie at ridgenet.net (Roger Ivie) Date: Sun, 29 Nov 2009 21:44:10 -0800 (PST) Subject: DEC Keyboard internals/hardware info... In-Reply-To: <4B1345D9.2020401@atarimuseum.com> References: , , , , <87B5DC42-4B99-4C79-BA68-5B835A01BD18@feedle.net> <4B1345D9.2020401@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 29 Nov 2009, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > > Any know of a site that has the full hardware technicals on the DEC > keyboards? I want to try interfacing one to ATMEGA MCU for a potential > keyboard interface, but I need to know its protocol, timing, etc.... There's a chapter in the Pro350 technical manual that covers the keyboard protocol. See Chapter 9 in http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp11/pro3xx/EK-PC300-V1-001_pro300tecV1.pdf -- roger ivie rivie at ridgenet.net From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Mon Nov 30 01:44:19 2009 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2009 08:44:19 +0100 Subject: DEC Keyboard internals/hardware info... In-Reply-To: <4B1345D9.2020401@atarimuseum.com> References: <87B5DC42-4B99-4C79-BA68-5B835A01BD18@feedle.net> <4B1345D9.2020401@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <20091130084419.ed0a6219.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Sun, 29 Nov 2009 23:11:05 -0500 "Curt @ Atari Museum" wrote: > Any know of a site that has the full hardware technicals on the DEC > keyboards? I want to try interfacing one to ATMEGA MCU for a potential > keyboard interface, but I need to know its protocol, timing, etc.... There is, among others, a DEC LK201/LK401 ---> PS2 convereter: http://www.kbdbabel.org/ The site contains extensive documentation on the used keyboards also. -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From rodsmallwood at btconnect.com Mon Nov 30 01:45:54 2009 From: rodsmallwood at btconnect.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2009 07:45:54 -0000 Subject: Is Fido extinct? Message-ID: <187823914AA7420CBB5AA51B6E218AC4@EDIConsultingLtd.local> Calling all hoarders! I have been trying to get my old Fido BBS (circa 1983) running again on my DEC Rainbow. The original Tom Jennings code got trashed in a system crash may years ago. There's bits of it on his BBS but I would need to be a much better C programmer to have a hope of fixing it. There are copies on the old Decus site but the un-squeezer's (NUSQ & NUSQ110) just report errors. I know about FOSSIL but its FIDO_DEC.exe I'm really after. Does anybody have or know where FIDO_DEC.exe might be found. Rod Smallwood From lance.w.lyon at gmail.com Mon Nov 30 01:56:08 2009 From: lance.w.lyon at gmail.com (Lance Lyon) Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2009 18:56:08 +1100 Subject: Is Fido extinct? In-Reply-To: <187823914AA7420CBB5AA51B6E218AC4@EDIConsultingLtd.local> References: <187823914AA7420CBB5AA51B6E218AC4@EDIConsultingLtd.local> Message-ID: <4b137a99.0e0bca0a.22b1.2607@mx.google.com> -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Rod Smallwood Sent: Monday, 30 November 2009 6:46 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Is Fido extinct? > Calling all hoarders! > I have been trying to get my old Fido BBS (circa 1983) running again on my > DEC Rainbow. > The original Tom Jennings code got trashed in a system crash may years ago. > I know about FOSSIL but its FIDO_DEC.exe I'm really after. > Does anybody have or know where FIDO_DEC.exe might be found. PC-Blue #97 has what you're looking for. Lance From wacarder at earthlink.net Sun Nov 29 17:28:11 2009 From: wacarder at earthlink.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Sun, 29 Nov 2009 18:28:11 -0500 (GMT-05:00) Subject: PDP-11 items for sale Message-ID: <29477814.1259537291761.JavaMail.root@elwamui-ovcar.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Folks, I'm trying to free up some floor space in my shop and am clearing out a number of interesting mostly 1970s Unibus PDP-11 items. They are on ebay under user wacarder. Among these are a TU56 with a TC11 controller, an 11/35, an 11/34a, an RK05f, an RK05, ASR-33 teletypes, and more. If you are in the market for any Unibus PDP-11 items, let me know. I have MANY MANY items and I need to free up space. Thanks, Ashley, Leesville, SC From rodsmallwood at btconnect.com Mon Nov 30 04:32:18 2009 From: rodsmallwood at btconnect.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2009 10:32:18 -0000 Subject: Is Fido extinct? In-Reply-To: <4b137a99.0e0bca0a.22b1.2607@mx.google.com> References: <187823914AA7420CBB5AA51B6E218AC4@EDIConsultingLtd.local> <4b137a99.0e0bca0a.22b1.2607@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <08E42884AB4E4611AC381252B4F75E7D@EDIConsultingLtd.local> I'm sorry but I don't know to what PC-Blue #97 refers Regards Rod Smallwood -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Lance Lyon Sent: 30 November 2009 07:56 To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: RE: Is Fido extinct? -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Rod Smallwood Sent: Monday, 30 November 2009 6:46 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Is Fido extinct? > Calling all hoarders! > I have been trying to get my old Fido BBS (circa 1983) running again on my > DEC Rainbow. > The original Tom Jennings code got trashed in a system crash may years ago. > I know about FOSSIL but its FIDO_DEC.exe I'm really after. > Does anybody have or know where FIDO_DEC.exe might be found. PC-Blue #97 has what you're looking for. Lance From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Mon Nov 30 04:36:25 2009 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2009 10:36:25 +0000 Subject: Is Fido extinct? In-Reply-To: <08E42884AB4E4611AC381252B4F75E7D@EDIConsultingLtd.local> References: <187823914AA7420CBB5AA51B6E218AC4@EDIConsultingLtd.local> <4b137a99.0e0bca0a.22b1.2607@mx.google.com> <08E42884AB4E4611AC381252B4F75E7D@EDIConsultingLtd.local> Message-ID: google finds http://cd.textfiles.com/pcblue/ Dave Caroline On Mon, Nov 30, 2009 at 10:32 AM, Rod Smallwood wrote: > > I'm sorry but I don't know to what PC-Blue #97 refers > > Regards > > Rod Smallwood > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] > On Behalf Of Lance Lyon > Sent: 30 November 2009 07:56 > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > Subject: RE: Is Fido extinct? > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] > On Behalf Of Rod Smallwood > Sent: Monday, 30 November 2009 6:46 PM > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Is Fido extinct? > >> Calling all hoarders! > > >> I have been trying to get my old Fido BBS (circa 1983) running again on my >> DEC Rainbow. > >> The original Tom Jennings code got trashed in a system crash may years > ago. > >> I know about FOSSIL but its FIDO_DEC.exe I'm really after. > > >> Does anybody have or know where FIDO_DEC.exe might be found. > > PC-Blue #97 has what you're looking for. > > Lance > > > > From david at cantrell.org.uk Mon Nov 30 05:13:07 2009 From: david at cantrell.org.uk (David Cantrell) Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2009 11:13:07 +0000 Subject: old simtel contents In-Reply-To: <200911251738.nAPHcgT8011844@floodgap.com> References: <4B0D683E.8020903@brutman.com> <200911251738.nAPHcgT8011844@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <20091130111307.GA20569@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk> On Wed, Nov 25, 2009 at 09:38:42AM -0800, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > I've also put up the Simtel copy a list member graciously provided me > here: > gopher://gopher.floodgap.com/1/archive/walnut-creek-cd-simtel And on a slightly related note, here's the Walnut Creek CP/M CD: http://www.cantrell.org.uk/mirrors/cpm/walnut-creek-CDROM/ -- David Cantrell | Nth greatest programmer in the world On the bright side, if sendmail is tied up routing spam and pointless uknot posts, it's not waving its arse around saying "root me!" -- Peter Corlett, in uknot From curt at atarimuseum.com Mon Nov 30 09:37:53 2009 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2009 10:37:53 -0500 Subject: DEC Keyboard internals/hardware info... In-Reply-To: <20091130084419.ed0a6219.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <87B5DC42-4B99-4C79-BA68-5B835A01BD18@feedle.net> <4B1345D9.2020401@atarimuseum.com> <20091130084419.ed0a6219.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <4B13E6D1.5080200@atarimuseum.com> PERFECT!!! Thank you! Curt Jochen Kunz wrote: > On Sun, 29 Nov 2009 23:11:05 -0500 > "Curt @ Atari Museum" wrote: > > >> Any know of a site that has the full hardware technicals on the DEC >> keyboards? I want to try interfacing one to ATMEGA MCU for a potential >> keyboard interface, but I need to know its protocol, timing, etc.... >> > There is, among others, a DEC LK201/LK401 ---> PS2 convereter: > http://www.kbdbabel.org/ > The site contains extensive documentation on the used keyboards also. > From geneb at deltasoft.com Mon Nov 30 09:56:35 2009 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2009 07:56:35 -0800 (PST) Subject: Is Fido extinct? In-Reply-To: <187823914AA7420CBB5AA51B6E218AC4@EDIConsultingLtd.local> References: <187823914AA7420CBB5AA51B6E218AC4@EDIConsultingLtd.local> Message-ID: On Mon, 30 Nov 2009, Rod Smallwood wrote: > Does anybody have or know where FIDO_DEC.exe might be found. > > Is this the copy you were referring to as being "Bad"? http://www.os2site.com/dec/rainbow/msdos/decus/rb102/ Also look at disks blu096.arc and blu097.arc here: http://cd.textfiles.com/pcblue/ g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From pat at computer-refuge.org Mon Nov 30 10:07:58 2009 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2009 11:07:58 -0500 Subject: Different take on 10 Yr. 'RULE' In-Reply-To: <5346C6A24F524669A8E59953C054137C@dell8300> References: <4B12DD94.5010605@oldskool.org> <5346C6A24F524669A8E59953C054137C@dell8300> Message-ID: <200911301107.58869.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Sunday 29 November 2009, Teo Zenios wrote: > When the world comes to an end there will be nothing left but > cockroaches and zip drives. I can't think of anything removable > besides a floppy drive that was so mass produced CD/DVD (and now BD)? Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Mon Nov 30 11:06:51 2009 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2009 14:06:51 -0300 Subject: DEC Keyboard internals/hardware info... References: <87B5DC42-4B99-4C79-BA68-5B835A01BD18@feedle.net> <4B1345D9.2020401@atarimuseum.com><20091130084419.ed0a6219.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <4B13E6D1.5080200@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <194601ca71e0$c03a7530$0301a8c0@Alexandre> > PERFECT!!! Thank you! I dream with a replacement for my Tektronix 3001GPX Keyboard :o) If someone has a spare, I can create a working adapter :) From teoz at neo.rr.com Mon Nov 30 10:26:35 2009 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2009 11:26:35 -0500 Subject: Different take on 10 Yr. 'RULE' References: <4B12DD94.5010605@oldskool.org><5346C6A24F524669A8E59953C054137C@dell8300> <200911301107.58869.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Patrick Finnegan" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Monday, November 30, 2009 11:07 AM Subject: Re: Different take on 10 Yr. 'RULE' > On Sunday 29 November 2009, Teo Zenios wrote: >> When the world comes to an end there will be nothing left but >> cockroaches and zip drives. I can't think of anything removable >> besides a floppy drive that was so mass produced > > CD/DVD (and now BD)? > > Pat > -- > I was thinking non optical when I wrote that. I bet most CDR/RW burners of ZIP drive vintage are recycled by now, yet I still see zip drives all over the place (even thrift stores). From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Nov 30 11:04:26 2009 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2009 09:04:26 -0800 Subject: Wanted - HP16530A docs, HP-HIL keyboard/mouse/PS2 adapter In-Reply-To: <4B130425.2070704@philpem.me.uk> References: <4B130425.2070704@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4B13FB1A.8000901@bitsavers.org> Philip Pemberton wrote: > Hi guys, > I've just got my hands on a HP 16500B logic analyser mainframe, > complete with a few acquisition cards (16530A 2-channel 400Msps > oscilloscope and 16550A 100MHz State/500MHz Timing logic analyser). Now > I'd rather like a keyboard and mouse for it... > My favorite LA. Figuring out the internals of the hardware and software is on my list of things I'd like to do some day. It was a very flexible device. > My question is, does anyone here have a HP-HIL keyboard, > mouse, or (preferably) a mouse and keyboard pair for sale? They are the same as on 300 series workstations. Send along an address and I'll send them to you, since the work you're doing on the USB interface is something I'd like to see finished. From pontus at Update.UU.SE Mon Nov 30 14:50:21 2009 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2009 21:50:21 +0100 Subject: Reanimating a PDP-11/23 Message-ID: <20091130205021.GA15097@Update.UU.SE> Hi all. I've been trying to get my 11/23 back on its feet. I've tried the following setup: KDF11-AA (M8186, CPU) MSV11-DD (M8044-DD, Memory) DLVJ1-M (M8043, SLU) BDV11 (M8012) The power check out ok and I've turned it on with the HALT switch up or down and get the following behaviour. With halt switch down: The run light goes out and all diods on the BDV11 lights up. With halt switch up: The run light stays on and the diods on the BDV11 indicates that the console terminal test routine is waiting for response from operator on keyboard. In both cases I see nothing on my terminal (I tried both a vt100 and vt320) were I think I should see the ODT @-prompt. I'm not sure what to do next, any suggestions? Also, the AUX on/off switch does not work, how is it connected to the PSU? Kind Regards, Pontus. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Nov 30 15:03:14 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2009 16:03:14 -0500 Subject: Reanimating a PDP-11/23 In-Reply-To: <20091130205021.GA15097@Update.UU.SE> References: <20091130205021.GA15097@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: On 11/30/09, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > Hi all. > > I've been trying to get my 11/23 back on its feet. I've tried the > following setup: > > KDF11-AA (M8186, CPU) > MSV11-DD (M8044-DD, Memory) > DLVJ1-M (M8043, SLU) > BDV11 (M8012) > > The power check out ok and I've turned it on with the HALT switch up or > down and get the following behaviour... > > I'm not sure what to do next, any suggestions? Where did you get your console cable? If your box has an external DE-9 (like a MicroPDP in a BA23), it is *not* pinned the same as a "PC-AT" serial cable. There's some specific DEC cable you need to attach the terminal, or some third-party MMJ or RJ11 or RJ45 dongle for that sort of cabling system. If you have an older machine (not sure since you call the DLV11J by the newer name DLVJ1) with a continuous cable from the SLU port right to the terminal, just check the pins - there's no hardware handshaking, IIRC, so you really just have to worry about RXD, TXD and GND. Also, what is your board arrangement in the backplane? You have a very simple system (CPU, MEM, SLU, termination+boot), but you still have to preserve the grant chain between the CPU and the BDV-11. Those are the two things that tend to trip up new PDP-11 configurations - SLU cables and an open grant chain. There's much information in the Microcomputer Handbooks to investigate and fix both issues. -ethan From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Nov 30 14:30:11 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2009 20:30:11 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Nand gate computer. In-Reply-To: <4B12E74E.20008@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at Nov 29, 9 01:27:42 pm Message-ID: > > allison wrote: > > one example is the Apollo AGC used nothing but 3 input RTL nor > > gates if memory serves. > Almost every reference claims that it only used the three input RTL NOR > gate, but they're actually incorrect. It contained two kinds of chips, > the other of which was a core memory sense amplifier. Like the well-known myth that the HP9100 calculator contaisn no ICs. Assuming you don't count the hybrid circuits that contain the R's and C's for the flip-flops, or that wonderful inductively-coupled PCB that forms the main ROM, there are still 8 conventional IC op-amps in the card reader of the 9100 -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Nov 30 14:32:39 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2009 20:32:39 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Core memory repair In-Reply-To: <4B12EDE9.3040500@jetnet.ab.ca> from "Ben" at Nov 29, 9 02:55:53 pm Message-ID: > > the other of which was a core memory sense amplifier. > > That brings up a good question, where do you find them to repair core memory > boards? I have no core memory, but suspect a important question? At least one core sense amplifier was listed in the TI interface databook until relatively recently (10 years ago or so). Which suggests it had other uses and may not be that hard to find. I suppose they can fail, but it's not a part I've ever had problems with. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Nov 30 15:29:24 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2009 21:29:24 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Wanted - HP16530A docs, HP-HIL keyboard/mouse/PS2 adapter In-Reply-To: <4B130425.2070704@philpem.me.uk> from "Philip Pemberton" at Nov 29, 9 11:30:45 pm Message-ID: > > Hi guys, > I've just got my hands on a HP 16500B logic analyser mainframe, > complete with a few acquisition cards (16530A 2-channel 400Msps > oscilloscope and 16550A 100MHz State/500MHz Timing logic analyser). Now > I'd rather like a keyboard and mouse for it... > > I'm aware that the HP-HIL keyboard and mouse used on the 16500B were First thing. You;ve got it right, but a lot of people don't. HP-HIL (Human IInterface Link) is the interface for keyboards, mice, twiddleboxes, etc. HPIL (Interface Look) is logivally a serial ersion of HPIB (IEEE-488) and links up disk drives, printers, etc. There is no such thing as an HPIL keyboard or mouse (at least notm made by HP), but it's worth searching for them on E-bay, becasue they're likely to be HP-HIL. > HP-proprietary, and that they were also used on a couple of HP > workstations. My question is, does anyone here have a HP-HIL keyboard, They were used on a lot of HP machines (the mice on rather more machines than the keyboards, actually). The keyoard comes in at least 3 sizes. The compact keyoard, the full keyboard (similar to a PC keyboard) and the odd one used on the Integral. Now, HP-HIL devices can be asked to sned an ID byte back to the host, the high bits of this encode the type of device (and is different for the 3 keyoard tpyes), in the case of a a keyboard the low bits encode the country-specifc layout. Note the the keyboard doesn't send ASCII codes -- it's more like a PC keyboard in that it effective sends '3rd key on the 2nd row has been pressed' It's up to the host machine to turn that into a character (based on the layout determined from the ID byte). Why am I telling you this? Well, it's possible your analyser will not handle all types of keybaords (I suspect it will handle all country versions). Do you hapeen to know waht keyboard was origianlly used? I have come across 2 HP-HIL keyoard types. The HP46020 is the older one, It has individual keyswiches soldered to an SRBP PCB. It uses a COP microcontorller, an HP-HIL slave chip (HP custom) and a few 4000-series CMOS parts. The ID byte is partially set by diodes soldered on the PCB, so could be trivially changed. The HP46021 is the later one, and claims to e compatible. The PCB in that conyains a large HP custom chip (directly linking to the HP-HIL connectors) and an E2PROM. I susepct the latter contains the ID byte. The keyboard matriv is a membrane tpye sandwich and is variable _capacitance_. No, that supprised me too, but the only change in electrical properties that I could detect as a capacistance change, and checking the patent nunbers (helpfully marked on the sandwich) confirmed this. There are several versions of the mouse (different shapes, I think maye 2 and 3 utton versions, and different circuits). But I think they're all pretty mcuh compatible. > mouse, or (preferably) a mouse and keyboard pair for sale? I can't promise, and I'll haev to dig a bit, but I may have a UK layout 46021 and a mouse spare. > (I'd also settle for a PS/2-to-HP-HIL adapter, if such a beast exists) I beleive it did exist, but I've never seen one. > > I've had a quick look on Greed-bay, and it seems the only listings > for HP-HIL kit are from test-and-measurement dealers whose prices are a > bit... well... "out there". You might find it easier to buy a cheap HP9000/300 series machine (AFAIK all used the HP-HIL keyoard). I've found old HP9000s sell for very little money on E-bay. Let me know if you want me to seriously dig for a 46021... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Nov 30 15:13:02 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2009 21:13:02 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Nand gate computer In-Reply-To: from "Dave McGuire" at Nov 29, 9 06:05:35 pm Message-ID: > I have an HP non-contact current tracer, looks like a logic probe, > was supplied in a pouch with a logic probe and pulser. It is > wonderful...tremendously handy. Is that the device you're talking > about? That current probe is a toy I've always wanted, but I've never seen one at a low enough price. I am told it's a great tool for finding shorted inputs, etc. -tony From nierveze at radio-astronomie.com Mon Nov 30 03:03:44 2009 From: nierveze at radio-astronomie.com (nierveze) Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2009 10:03:44 +0100 Subject: BK Back to Life! -- BK0010 / BK0011 emulator References: Message-ID: <000701ca719c$0a01afc0$04000005@pc> hello, there are already several emulators ,running on win98 et later versions of windows,particularly this one http://www.cplusplus.boom.ru/ that is a very precise reproduction of real bk0010, (I mean that some programs require a precise configuration on a real bk0010 to work ,it is the same on on the emulator) ,it also contains a very useful format converter for files from bin<> to wav to put them on tapes used by real bk0010,or save old cassetes. I very often use it with my real bk0010.I use my real bk0010 to do pdp11 programming in assembly,with a video monitor and a tape recorder,among lots of programs there is an assembler rather close to macro11,with editing ,compiling ,linking ,and possibility to save files on tape at every stage.The real bk it is less heavy ,has less power consumption,makes less noise and takes much less room than my 11/34a or my other dec machines ,my wife (and me) appreciate all this... best regards to all a.nierveze ----- Original Message ----- From: "St?phane Tsacas" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" ; "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: lundi 30 novembre 2009 02:01 Subject: BK Back to Life! -- BK0010 / BK0011 emulator > From: http://code.google.com/p/bkbtl/ > > *BKBTL* -- *BK Back to Life!* -- is > BK0010/BK0011 emulator > for Windows 2000/XP/Vista. BK is soviet home computer based on PDP-11 > compatible processor K1801VM1. The project started on Nov. 14, 2009 and > based on UKNCBTL code. > > The emulator works under Windows 2000/2003/2008/XP/Vista. Written for Win32 > and requires Unicode support. > > Current status: Beta, under development. > > Emulated: > > - CPU (still closer to 1801VM2) > - Motherboard (partially) > - Screen -- black and white mode, color mode, short mode (except the > color mode palettes) > - Keyboard (but mapped not all BK keys) > - Reading from tape (WAV file) > > > -- > Stephane > http://updatedoften.blogspot.com/ > From pete at dunnington.plus.com Mon Nov 30 16:34:04 2009 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2009 22:34:04 +0000 Subject: Reanimating a PDP-11/23 In-Reply-To: <20091130205021.GA15097@Update.UU.SE> References: <20091130205021.GA15097@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <4B14485C.3000702@dunnington.plus.com> On 30/11/2009 20:50, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > I've been trying to get my 11/23 back on its feet. I've tried the > following setup: > > KDF11-AA (M8186, CPU) > MSV11-DD (M8044-DD, Memory) > DLVJ1-M (M8043, SLU) > BDV11 (M8012) > In both cases I see nothing on my terminal (I tried both a vt100 and > vt320) were I think I should see the ODT @-prompt. If you're using a DE-9 connector cable on a microPDP-11/23, or the cab kit belonging to one, the pinout isn't the same as the common modern PC version, as Ethan pointed out. If you're using a 25-pin D-connector on some other cabinet kit, make sure you have Tx and Rx (pins 2 and 3) the right way round, and signal ground (pin 7, not the same as protective ground on pin 1) connected. If you're using a 10-pin berg-style connector directly onto the DLV11-J, check it's made up correctly; it has differential signals and you need to link pins 7 and 9 to make it work properly (though I'd not expect that to stop it transmitting. The other pins you need are Tx+ on pin 3, Rx+ on 8 pin, and ground on pin 2. Whatever you're doing, make sure you have the baud rate set correctly. If the speed is wildly out, you may see nothing. If you have Tx and Rx mixed up, you will see nothing. And on a DLV11-J, make sure you're using the correct port -- only port 3 can be the console port (the one on the extreme left as you look at it from the back) -- and that it is actually set up as a console, and that the DLV11-J is set to the standard address. You can set a DLV11-J *not* to reserve one port for the console, and you can also set it to different start addresses (though that shouldn't, in itself, affect the console port, if it's configured to provide one). Unlikely to be wrong, but do you have the cards in the right places in the backplane? If this is a serpentine backplane, they should be in slot 1 AB, then slot 1 CD, slot 2 CD. If it's a straight backplane (standard for an 11/23) they should be one under the other, with no cards in the CD section (except, of course, the BDV11 which take up all 4 sections of the slot). > Also, the AUX on/off switch does not work, how is it connected to the > PSU? If this is a standard BA11-N or BA11-S box, or anything similar, that switch isn't connected to the PSU, exactly. It is usually jumpered to enable/disable the LTC signal, but it can be cabled to the rack's power controller using a 3-core cable with a 3-pin AMP Commercial Mate-N-Lolk connector on each end. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.plus.com Mon Nov 30 16:40:30 2009 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2009 22:40:30 +0000 Subject: Reanimating a PDP-11/23 In-Reply-To: References: <20091130205021.GA15097@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <4B1449DE.8010508@dunnington.plus.com> On 30/11/2009 21:03, Ethan Dicks wrote: > Also, what is your board arrangement in the backplane? You have a > very simple system (CPU, MEM, SLU, termination+boot), but you still > have to preserve the grant chain between the CPU and the BDV-11. Actually, you don't. If anything else uses the grant chain, you must preserve the chain between the "anything" and the CPU. However, it was common to put the BDV11 in the last slot, leaving others empty, and that's a standard configuration. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Mon Nov 30 16:59:27 2009 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2009 22:59:27 +0000 Subject: Wanted - HP16530A docs, HP-HIL keyboard/mouse/PS2 adapter In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B144E4F.20604@philpem.me.uk> Tony Duell wrote: > Why am I telling you this? Well, it's possible your analyser will not > handle all types of keybaords (I suspect it will handle all country > versions). Do you hapeen to know waht keyboard was origianlly used? According to the User's Guide for the 16500B: "This chapter explains how to use the optonal keyboard interface (HP E2427A Keyboard Kit) and optonal mouse." So I guess that would be the E2427A. Listed by Agilent as a "HP-HIL Keyboard that can be used with Agilent instruments". > There are several versions of the mouse (different shapes, I think maye 2 > and 3 utton versions, and different circuits). But I think they're all > pretty mcuh compatible. The one shown in the 16500B manual looks like someone glued half a tennis ball to the bottom edge of a cuboid then shoved a cable in the other end... Very strange. > I can't promise, and I'll haev to dig a bit, but I may have a UK layout > 46021 and a mouse spare. Al Kossow has already offered me a HP-HIL keyboard (ref: his post at 17:04 in this thread), so thanks for the offer but I think I'm sorted. What I need to hunt down now are some replacement machine screws for the mounting feet. Two of the feet have been removed; it looks like the machine was dropped at some point in its life, and the mounting screws have been snapped. On top of that, the square-profile metal tabs that hold the screws have been split apart by the force of the impact. So basically, what I've got is a pair of feet, no screws, and the metal the screws screw into is "gone". It extends further into the mainframe a bit more and there is some more screwthread, but I'm trying to think of a solution for the lack of metal around what is the main mounting for the feet. At this point, my two best solutions are: - Drill the holes out a bit more (to around M5) and have a local machine shop make up some threaded inserts -- M5 outside, M3.5 tapped hole inside, possibly flattened on one end so they can be easily screwed in. Screw in, build up epoxy putty around the side to replace the missing metal, reinstall mounting feet. - Same thing without the threaded inserts. Drive a screw into the hole, build up the putty and leave it to set (~24 hrs). Remove the screw, then install the foot and reinsert the screw. I like #1, it's more effort but likely to produce a stronger result. What surprises me is that HP only used one M3.5 screw to hold each foot, and this is on a >20kg machine. My Tek 466 weighs less than that, and IIRC the screws for the feet on that are around M5-size. At this point, I would kill for a drill press, a lathe, tap-and-die set, some metal rod stock and a good book on metalworking... The screws are listed in the service manual as "Screw, Machine, M3.5 x 0.6, 25.4mm_LG (Back Feet)". Torx T15 head (if memory serves; might be T10). Naturally the closest I've got is either M3 or M4 and nobody around here stocks machine screws in small quantities. Admittedly two broken feet is not the end of the world, but it does make it something of a pain to angle the front up on the flip-feet... Ah well. For a few quid under ?140, it's still a steal. Especially seeing as I got a full set of probes. With HP LAs, documentation and software can generally be tracked down; probes tend to be rare and expensive (especially those blasted woven cables). Thanks, -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Mon Nov 30 17:37:01 2009 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2009 23:37:01 +0000 Subject: Wanted - HP16530A docs, HP-HIL keyboard/mouse/PS2 adapter In-Reply-To: <4B144E4F.20604@philpem.me.uk> References: <4B144E4F.20604@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4B14571D.4080906@philpem.me.uk> Philip Pemberton wrote: > - Same thing without the threaded inserts. Drive a screw into the > hole, build up the putty and leave it to set (~24 hrs). Remove the > screw, then install the foot and reinsert the screw. I suddenly like this solution a lot more :P I've just removed one of the other feet, and it screws into the broken metalwork fine (and, crucially, stays in place). Doesn't feel any weaker than the other foot (which was 100% intact). Looks like I just need to get my mitts on a bag of 1in-long M3.5 machine screws and find the pack of epoxy putty that I know is *somewhere* around here. Might try the local model shop tomorrow, or failing that I need to find ?30 worth of stuff to buy from Farnell... -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From glen.slick at gmail.com Mon Nov 30 18:35:44 2009 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2009 16:35:44 -0800 Subject: Wanted - HP16530A docs, HP-HIL keyboard/mouse/PS2 adapter In-Reply-To: <4B144E4F.20604@philpem.me.uk> References: <4B144E4F.20604@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <1e1fc3e90911301635o515a9efq2d723be57b442e04@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, Nov 30, 2009 at 2:59 PM, Philip Pemberton wrote: > > Ah well. For a few quid under ?140, it's still a steal. Especially seeing as > I got a full set of probes. With HP LAs, documentation and software can > generally be tracked down; probes tend to be rare and expensive (especially > those blasted woven cables). > Finding parts for HP 16500 series analyzer at reasonable prices shouldn't be a problem for quite a while, at least in the US. Did your 16500B come with the Ethernet interface, 16500L or 16500H ? If it did you can use the FTP server to transfer files, grab screen shots, and send program commands. You can also use an X Window System Server to remotely control the mainframe, which is an alternative to using a local HIL keyboard and mouse if you don't have them. I have PDFs of most of the 16500 series module manuals, but not the 16530/16531 operating manuals. I have manuals and IA/config file disks for the 8085 (10304B) and Z-80 (10300B) probes. Anyone have the manual and IA/config file disk for the 68000/68010 (10311B) probe? -Glen From jack.rubin at ameritech.net Mon Nov 30 19:10:58 2009 From: jack.rubin at ameritech.net (Jack Rubin) Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2009 19:10:58 -0600 Subject: AFIPS Proceedings, 1979 Message-ID: <9408A60D822542B8A3972AE8F05C4122@obie> Available for the cost of mailing - AFIPS Conference Proceedings, 1979 National Computer Conference. I'll send it media mail but it's a big book - weighs about 6 pounds. Jack From wmaddox at pacbell.net Mon Nov 30 19:13:00 2009 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2009 17:13:00 -0800 (PST) Subject: AFIPS Proceedings, 1979 In-Reply-To: <9408A60D822542B8A3972AE8F05C4122@obie> Message-ID: <228241.30985.qm@web82604.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Sure. These are always a good read. How much do you figure it will cost to ship? If its less than $10, I'll take it. --Bill --- On Mon, 11/30/09, Jack Rubin wrote: > From: Jack Rubin > Subject: AFIPS Proceedings, 1979 > To: "Classic Computer List" > Date: Monday, November 30, 2009, 5:10 PM > Available for the cost of mailing - > AFIPS Conference Proceedings, 1979 > National Computer Conference. I'll send it media mail but > it's a big book - > weighs about 6 pounds. > > Jack > > From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Nov 30 19:20:54 2009 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2009 17:20:54 -0800 Subject: AFIPS Proceedings, 1979 In-Reply-To: <228241.30985.qm@web82604.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <228241.30985.qm@web82604.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4B146F76.8010603@bitsavers.org> William Maddox wrote: > Sure. These are always a good read. > Though the entire series is now available in the ACM digital library. From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Mon Nov 30 19:49:37 2009 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2009 17:49:37 -0800 Subject: AFIPS Proceedings, 1979 References: <228241.30985.qm@web82604.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4B146F76.8010603@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4B147630.7B588BCB@cs.ubc.ca> Al Kossow wrote: >> Jack Rubin wrote: >>> >>> Available for the cost of mailing - AFIPS Conference Proceedings, 1979 >>> National Computer Conference. I'll send it media mail but it's a big book - >>> weighs about 6 pounds. > > William Maddox wrote: > > Sure. These are always a good read. > > > > Though the entire series is now available in the ACM digital > library. 79 (and 78) seem to be missing: http://portal.acm.org/toc.cfm?id=SERIES11816&idx=SERIES11816&type=series&coll=ACM&dl=ACM&part=series&WantType=Proceedings&title=AFIPS&CFID=64369060&CFTOKEN=94542919 Maybe it should be sent to the ACM, but then it would only be available if you sign up, and who knows what that entails. From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Nov 30 20:11:04 2009 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2009 18:11:04 -0800 Subject: AFIPS Proceedings, 1979 In-Reply-To: <4B147630.7B588BCB@cs.ubc.ca> References: <228241.30985.qm@web82604.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4B146F76.8010603@bitsavers.org> <4B147630.7B588BCB@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <4B147B38.7010309@bitsavers.org> Brent Hilpert wrote: >> Though the entire series is now available in the ACM digital >> library. > > 79 (and 78) seem to be missing: > Tell someone at ACM. I sent them the entire series. From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Nov 30 21:02:42 2009 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2009 19:02:42 -0800 Subject: Nand gate computer. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B148752.3060307@brouhaha.com> Tony Duell wrote: > It's a pity there never as a TTL multiplexer with open-collector outputs. > That would be an ideal device. 74LS605, 74LS607 From cclist at sydex.com Mon Nov 30 21:37:03 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2009 19:37:03 -0800 Subject: Nand gate computer. In-Reply-To: <4B148752.3060307@brouhaha.com> References: , <4B148752.3060307@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4B141EDF.6918.23F6545@cclist.sydex.com> On 30 Nov 2009 at 19:02, Eric Smith wrote: > Tony Duell wrote: > > > It's a pity there never as a TTL multiplexer with open-collector > outputs. > > That would be an ideal device. > > 74LS605, 74LS607 Aren't those multiplexed *latches*? (i.e. 2 8 bit registers with the abiltiy to select one or the other latch as output). Not quite the right chip, IMOHO. What Tony's looking for is something like a 74LS157 with OC outputs. --Chuck From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Nov 30 22:47:13 2009 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2009 20:47:13 -0800 Subject: Nand gate computer. In-Reply-To: <4B141EDF.6918.23F6545@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4B148752.3060307@brouhaha.com> <4B141EDF.6918.23F6545@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4B149FD1.5000306@brouhaha.com> Tony Duell wrote: > It's a pity there never as a TTL multiplexer with open-collector outputs. > That would be an ideal device. I wrote: > 74LS605, 74LS607 Chuck Guzis wrote: > Aren't those multiplexed *latches*? I thought they were. If they were latches, they would work fine as muxes by holding the clock in the active state. > (i.e. 2 8 bit registers with the abiltiy to select one or the other latch as output). That's the problem. Contrary to the title of the data sheet, they aren't latches, but rather registers. Oh well. From rodsmallwood at btconnect.com Mon Nov 30 23:55:23 2009 From: rodsmallwood at btconnect.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Tue, 1 Dec 2009 05:55:23 -0000 Subject: Is Fido extinct? In-Reply-To: References: <187823914AA7420CBB5AA51B6E218AC4@EDIConsultingLtd.local><4b137a99.0e0bca0a.22b1.2607@mx.google.com><08E42884AB4E4611AC381252B4F75E7D@EDIConsultingLtd.local> Message-ID: <67B2A0EABD044D3FA62AB83277F5E867@EDIConsultingLtd.local> Thanks - Fido now runs and works when run to another system. I just assert DCD. Now to interface it with the DECServer200/MC so it can be Telneted to. My aim is a Telnet BBS using original 80/90's Hard and software. Regards Rod Smallwood ANSI X12 - EANCOM - TRADACOMS EDI Consulting Ltd Phone 0118 971 4436 Email rodsmallwood at btconnect.com -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dave Caroline Sent: 30 November 2009 10:36 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Is Fido extinct? google finds http://cd.textfiles.com/pcblue/ Dave Caroline On Mon, Nov 30, 2009 at 10:32 AM, Rod Smallwood wrote: > > I'm sorry but I don't know to what PC-Blue #97 refers > > Regards > > Rod Smallwood > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] > On Behalf Of Lance Lyon > Sent: 30 November 2009 07:56 > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > Subject: RE: Is Fido extinct? > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] > On Behalf Of Rod Smallwood > Sent: Monday, 30 November 2009 6:46 PM > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Is Fido extinct? > >> Calling all hoarders! > > >> I have been trying to get my old Fido BBS (circa 1983) running again on my >> DEC Rainbow. > >> The original Tom Jennings code got trashed in a system crash may years > ago. > >> I know about FOSSIL but its FIDO_DEC.exe I'm really after. > > >> Does anybody have or know where FIDO_DEC.exe might be found. > > PC-Blue #97 has what you're looking for. > > Lance > > > >